Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 2040

Welcome and Introduction to Lauren Matthias

John Dehlin [00:00:00] How does a Mormon woman become a true crime superstar? Hello, everyone. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Shaun Dehlin. It is July 2nd and today we're so excited. I've been waiting for years for this interview. But we have with us in studio back, for those familiar with Mormon Stories, we have the Lauren Matthias to tell us her epic story of how she went again from a young woman to raised Mormon to the super popular world renowned Hidden True Crime podcast with her husband, Dr. John. And Lauren, we're so happy to have you.

Lauren Matthias [00:00:39] I'm happy to be here. Nervous but happy.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] What do you think? Mindy's superstar, True Crime Superstar.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:46] Is that Absolutely great description.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And if y' all don't know, we also have back with us in studio, part of our dream team. We have Mindy Caldwell back as my co host for today. Hey, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:57] Hi. So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Yeah, I think us, combined with Megan, are maybe best known in the Mormon Stories family. For our coverage of Visions of Glory, Chad Dabel, Lori Vallow, Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby Franke. We've covered a lot of those stories, which you've also covered on Hidden True Crime podcast. But I guess we have to say we love you, Meegan. Is that fair to say as well?

Mindy Caldwell [00:01:22] We miss Megan. The band doesn't feel the same without Megan here.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] So we got part of the band back together. But anyway. All right, so anything that I, you want to add, take away or correct from my intro, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:01:39] No, I, you know, superstars a little much, but a true crime podcaster.

Mindy Caldwell [00:01:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Yeah. And I think the titles that you. That we kind of brainstormed in the outline, you know, sort of like how True crime has interplayed with your Mormon upbringing in your Mormon faith. Yeah. Just kind of your epic Mormon journey. And that's what we do in Mormon Stories is long form. And I'll just let people know the current tentative plan. We always try and go with how the interview is going is probably to do a two parter on this episode because there's so much good stuff. So part one is going to be sort of Lauren Matthias's background leading up to her decision to start the Hidden True Crime podcast.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] So that's kind of all about her background. And then depending on how it goes, we'll have a part two, which is sort of the beginnings of Hidden True Crime podcast, its evolution and you know, where things are today, what it's been like to cover so many important true crime stories, many of which are within a Mormon context. And then maybe some Q and A at the end. So that's kind of the rough plan in the outline. Does that sound good?

Lauren Matthias [00:02:52] Sounds good, Sounds good. I. I'll just get comfy and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] So let's all settle in. You ready, Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [00:02:59] I'm ready.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] All right, let's do it. All right. So, Lauren Matthias, where does your Mormon story begin?

Family Background and Ancestry

Lauren Matthias [00:03:06] Well, I guess it begins before I was born, right. My ancestors. But I do want to say this before I even start talking why I'm doing this. And you asked me a long time ago and yeah, you've, you've asked me if I've ever wanted to do this. And I thought, you know what?

Lauren Matthias [00:03:26] I don't think so. Like, it just felt a little overwhelming. People have expectations of who I am and I don't want to disappoint anyone. And as a journalist on my, my podcast, Hidden True Crime, I don't tell people what I believe or I don't tell people where I am because I just want to relay the evidence non biasedly. And while I'll share about having an LDS background, that's all I will say in order to let them know I am relaying the evidence and nothing more or the knowledge they need to have know about the LDS faith that I know of because I cover a lot of LDS centered crimes.

Lauren Matthias [00:04:15] And yet as a reporter and a journalist for over a decade, 15 years, I have encouraged people to tell their stories because I do believe that stories change us, they change humanity, they humanize people, which is actually the opposite of crime, is a deep crime, is a dehumanization of people. And it's so important to humanize people. And I think that stories and what Mormon stories does is so powerful because stories change our minds and our ideas and that's important to me. And so I was just at Lori Valo Day Bell's third, third, fourth, third trial, just been so many.

Lauren Matthias [00:05:12] And a couple came up to me and said they watched Hidden True Crime and said how much they had loved one of my particular interviews and said that they had watched it three times. And I said, really all three parts? Because this was a very long interview. And they said all three parts. Please tell her she is very brave. And I'm so grateful that she was brave. And I think that was the moment. And I, and I did tell this interviewee that and I shared that with her and that was the moment I realized I think it's time that I should maybe try to be brave.

Lauren Matthias [00:05:50] And so that's when I reached out and said, I'm ready So I just want to lay that out why I'm doing this. I am nervous because I don't like disappointing people. And so I think about that. I think about expectations people have of me and what they might learn about me, but I also want to own my story and rather than. Yeah, just. Just be authentic.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Yeah. So it's beautiful. What a beautiful intention. And I am so super confident that we're just going to have a great time and a heartfelt connecting time as, as friends. And I'm excited to learn about your story. Thank you. Because you've made a big difference in a lot of people's lives and in ours. And it's kind of a sacred honor to be a part of this, so.

Mindy Caldwell [00:06:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] Yeah. All right. Well, that's a great intention. I guess what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Lauren Matthias [00:06:57] Yes.

Childhood Faith and Early Mormon Life

John Dehlin [00:06:59] So now, where does your Mormon story begin?

Lauren Matthias [00:07:04] So my mother is from the East Idaho area. That's where she actually was born in Hollywood, California. But she grew up in East Idaho. And my grandfather there, her father was a chiropractor and a bishop in Pocatello. And then my father is from Arizona, he was born in Casa Grande. Mostly raised in Oregon though, and long line of LDS ancestors on both sides. While my grandmother, my dad's mom, was a convert. Other than that, Paces Johnson's people being baptized in Kirtland. One of my great great grandmothers on my mother's side has a painting in the St. George Temple of her caring.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:55] You know, legend has it hundreds of people across the icy Platte river to save souls. People ask, well, where were the men? I said, they're getting owned by my grandma. And then I think, and then on my dad's side, I even have some that actually were in the Mexican colony, I think with the Romney's. I mean there, there's a wide range. But I am, I am LDS blood through and through.

Lauren Matthias [00:08:21] And then I. My parents met at byu. That's how you meet. And then I was born in New York City while my dad was attending Columbia Law School. I was a mistake. They already had to boys in a very small apartment in New York City. And so I came alongside two older brothers. Then we lived in Brooklyn for a while when my dad practice and then the family actually moved to Romania for a time. It was. My dad had a Fulbright scholarship there studying international law because it was a. It was a communist country at the time. It was under the dictator Ceausescu.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:02] And.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:03] And so a lot of stories growing up of how he had to hold me. I was a toddler at the time, you know, in food lines in order to get food. How there were spies everywhere and they had to slip a Book of Mormon to someone underneath the table that was interested. How they had to bribe doctors with cigarettes to treat my older brother.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:22] And so there was a lot of lessons when I was younger about how important freedom of religion is and accepting everyone. And then in New York though, too, and I love this about my parents, how they taught diversity. You know, my dad would always teach about respect of other religions too. While he was proud of our LDS heritage, he would always tell the story of being in this small apartment, student housing in New York City, and our neighbors were Orthodox Jews and how they helped one another and they didn't want to operate machinery on, on the Sabbath. And so they would come over and they would knock, knocking the door, but.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:59] But knock on my parents door and say, can you come push the elevator button. And my dad would go out and push the elevator buttons for them on that Sabbath day so that they could keep their Sabbath holy. And so I was also always growing. I always grew up with the idea that you did say Happy Holidays and not Merry Christmas and that you respect everybody's religions and that we, we kept coffee in our cupboard. If we had friends come over that were visiting that drink that. And so it was more of a very.

Lauren Matthias [00:10:28] I think I had a lot of LDS pride and a lot of like, heritage kind of a feeling to it, like this is us and someone else might be Jewish. And so that's something I want to kind of put out there too, because I think that formed a lot of how I thought about my faith. And then I, we moved to Salt Lake City. That's where I started kindergarten. And from there was it, Was it

John Dehlin [00:10:59] the early mid-80s that you were in Romania?

Lauren Matthias [00:11:01] Basically, yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:04] And then we moved to Salt Lake City. So neither of my parents are from Salt Lake, but that's where I was raised for the most part. And we settled right in Salt Lake City. My dad's legally blind too, so he could never drive. So we always lived in a downtown area. So, you know, this is before remote working. That wasn't the thing. Right. So we always lived in a very downtown sort of central area for the most part, so that he could ride his bike or catch a ride to the office or sometimes even walk. And so we lived in Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:11:33] And can I just say, legally blind. Columbia Law School, Fulbright Scholar. That's a lot.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:42] Yeah, yeah. My dad is. I love my dad. And I say that because, yeah, there'll be a.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Some twists and turns.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:50] Some twists and turns. But I. I love my dad.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:53] Yeah. And he's. He is a remarkable man. His dad did not go to college, so.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] Whoa.

Mindy Caldwell [00:12:01] Wow. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:02] So he. Yeah, he was. Yeah, he is. He was really neat. He is a really neat guy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:12:08] Was he legally blind from a young age or.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:11] He. Actually, I have the journal entry. It's fascinating when he finds out that he's legally blind. So he went on a mission to the Philippines. So right before, he was being raised in Oregon and he couldn't see as well in high school, so they. They did eye tests on him and they noticed that glasses weren't helping it. Something was wrong, and they did a bunch of tests, and they later learned that he had what is called Stargardt's disease, and it's a hereditary macular degeneration of the eyes. And so it gets worse with age. And then he.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:52] He did get his driver's license when he was 16, but he went on a mission then when he came back from his mission after the Philippines, and I've talked to mission companions of him, they say, I just remember him as the elder that couldn't see. He came back from his mission and could not get a driver's license. At that age, he could not see. And they said, you are legally blind. So he was 21. And so he wrote in his journal. It was his mission journal. He said, the wildest thing just happened. I just found out I was legally blind. This is crazy. But hey, you know what?

Lauren Matthias [00:13:23] I'll get great airline tickets. You know, I could, you know, like, something about, you know, this is going to be okay. He was very optimistic. But, yeah, when my mom and dad dated, my mother would drive and would have to pick him up. And he never drove growing up. So my mother, bless her soul, like, she had to drive everywhere, you know, every road trip. And, you know, she'll have six kids total later on. But, yeah, so, yeah, it was interesting growing up with a dad that didn't drive. I remember, though, sometimes he'd be like, we'd got it. We needed to get to church. And I remember him getting in the driver's seat once and just like freaking out as like a seven year old. He didn't do that later on because it got worse. His eyesight is pretty bad now.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] So you moved to Salt Lake City.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:09] Moved to Salt Lake City. And I remember every Sunday, usually walking, because that story didn't have to happen like once or twice. But we would walk down an alley to get to our church building. And it was an old historic church in Salt Lake City. And I had a beautiful stained glass window at the front of the chapel of Christ knocking on that door without a doorknob. And so Christ. And by the way, I just loved that. I loved that stained glass window. I loved having Christ there in the chapel every day and that symbolism.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Tell us what, the knob not being there.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:48] Yeah, that Christ is knocking, but you have to let him in. You have to let him in. And. Yeah, and so it was beautiful. It was a small ward. It was a close knit ward. I was actually the only girl my age in the ward. And then I only had brothers.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:08] And so when people say, what was it like? There weren't really other girls in the ward to say, oh, we were being taught roles because I was the only girl in my family. I mean, I was being taught roles, trust me. Like, I was being called difficult and the tomboy and I was getting left out of my older brother's activities. Like, I felt it, you know, I think I was a born kind of feminist and frustrated that I couldn't do, you know, I couldn't hang with the boys. But there, there were, there weren't that thing, those things being taught in church in my early years, you know, I was marrying the Nativity most often every year.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:44] And it was just a very close, caring ward. And then my best friend, I, I was, I just needed one good friend and I just had one best friend and she was not lds, so. Yeah, so that was, it was, it was good. And we were, you know, we both were very.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:06] My dad spent a lot of time with my older brothers. I, my mother was really nurturing. I was the youngest for five years and I had two younger brothers and she spent a lot of time taking care of them. I helped her take care of them. And so I just went and found friends. And this, this friend Abby actually was a big part of my childhood. And we would just play out in the gully in Salt Lake City and, and just be imaginative. But she didn't. That's something I want to say. She didn't.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:35] So she was not lds. And so in some ways I think that I might have even questioned God before I questioned Santa Claus because I, you know, I'm being taught in church that this is true, but my best friend in the world doesn't believe it, but it was, it was.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] So she didn't believe in, in God.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:57] I don't know if she believed in God or not, actually. I don't know. But you know, well, I'll tell this story first and then we'll get into my questioning of God.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] She wasn't actively religious.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:05] Yeah, I did. I, like, I don't know what religion. Right. I didn't know. But we, she came to church with me a couple of times. We invited her and she came to primary and it was really fun for me. And I do remember one Sunday morning, we went every week. We were, we went all three hours every week. I was a three hour girl. Right. We can say that. Walked uphill both ways and went to church three hours.

Mindy Caldwell [00:17:26] Three hours.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:28] And, and, and Abby came with me a few times.

Mindy Caldwell [00:17:32] I remember.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:32] And then I remember one Sunday morning, everybody's getting ready and my mom stopped me on the stairs and she said, hey, sweetheart, you know how Abby has come to church with you on Sundays? And I said, yeah. She said, well, what's. What Abby does on Sundays is she swims. She was a very good swimmer. She was on the swim team. And so they've invited you to go swimming today and you are going to go with Abby today because that's what Abby does on Sundays. And so that was sort of the way my parents taught me like that. So it was just very okay. And I was like, great. That helped. Fun for me. And so I got to go swimming with Abby. So that's how I remember my parents sort of teaching us to sort of respect and love everyone's differences and how I grew up.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:16] Did you ever feel a pressure that you needed to, you know, proselytize to Abby or do you recall, were you too young to maybe have those feelings or. I just recall having friends who were not LDS and maybe feeling some pressure internally or externally. Every member of missionary to recruit my friends to go to church. I wonder if you ever felt that way with Abby.

Lauren Matthias [00:18:39] I didn't feel that way with Abby. I do remember having visitors from out of the country visiting us and me singing I am a child of God and them saying, we don't believe in God, don't sing that. But I remember thinking, oh, okay. Oops. Like, I remember feeling embarrassed, but I don't think I ever felt the pressure to proselytize to her.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] No, it sounds like your parents were just very globally minded and not, it sounds like didn't. Didn't have the sort of provincial Mormon bubble mindset. That's what I'm getting so far.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:12] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what I want to express too because, you know, people, people wonder and that's That's. I'm happy about that part of my childhood and how they did that. Yeah, they did. They had a global mindset. And so while I didn't feel pressure to proselytize to Abby, I think, though realizing that I would go to church and my best friend didn't, I. I have this very clear recollection of being seven years old. I was in the bathroom and having a moment of like thinking how happy. I know that the church is true. That I. I did think, this is the truth.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:00] We know the truth. I have this true church and I know that I'll be with God and I know that I'm safe and that God loves me. And I, you know, and for a split second thinking, but what if I don't? No, what if it's not true? And the fear that enveloped me as a seven year old thinking that for a split second I will never forget because it was like, it was so palpable that I quickly was like, it is true. Like, I just shut it off. I was like, it is true. Because it was so scary to me to think there might not be a God or this might not be right.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:48] Because I think looking back now, I just had an absolute fear of death. Like, I mean, I think most human beings probably, you know, experience that at some point. Like, we all die. And I just couldn't go there. And I think, honestly, when I look at that moment, I think that also maybe even was the transition into sort of being fascinated with true crime. I was fascinated with true crime as a child because I think true crime represented death and my fear of death and the evil of humanity and what is real. And like, we. We have this safety and this comfort in God and heaven and being with our families forever and a plan and a purpose and we're. And it's all gonna be okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] And we're protected.

Lauren Matthias [00:21:41] And we're protected, right? And we're protected. And true crime is saying there is actually evil in this world and this is humanity and this is being mortal and someone could kill you tomorrow and it could all be gone. And I remember the first show I started watching, it was like 789 was a show on TV called Rescue 91 1. People my age will remember it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:22:08] I remember that show.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:09] You rem it? Oh, yeah, yeah. Before Unsolved mysteries, there was Rescue 91 1. And you know, and also I think my mother was too busy with the younger kids. And my dad always. My dad was an incredible musician too. Yeah, my dad, he's an incredible musician and he Taught my older brothers how to play music.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] That's where Clark gets it.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:28] Yes.

Mindy Caldwell [00:22:28] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:29] You know, my brother Clark. And yeah, I have a very musical family. I'm the black sheep in many ways. That's. It's one of them again. I just went and found friends. But I would watch this show. The good news is everyone was rescued, hence Rescue 911. But it's how they would call 911 and get rescued. Like I remember to this day watching where someone comes in in the middle of the night, an intruder. And they come up and start attacking a little girl's dad with a knife. And the little girl runs down, calls the phone, calls 91 1. She's crying. They're playing the 911 call on this thing.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:08] She's saying, help. My daddy is getting murdered. And I'm. And you know, they're doing the B roll. And so you see the guy with the knife over, you know, the reenactment. The reenactment, yeah. And I'm thinking, hurry, hurry. And 911 calls.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:24] And that was the episode that just stuck with me because I thought if she didn't call right then, he was about to be killed. You know, the react. Reenactment was so, like, suspenseful back and forth. And how close her dad was to death and that she saved him and how frightening that there could just. Yeah, this be this other side. The opposite of what faith teaches us. You know, church teaches us.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:48] And so I. I became a very fearful child. And I. Whenever I'd go to bed at night, I would think, where's the phone so I can call 91 1. What if someone comes in in the middle of the night? I would practice hiding in my pillows. Like, how would.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:05] They would check under the bed? How would I hide? And I would practice and I would put my stuffed animals on me. How would I get to my little brothers to save them? Where do. Where's my escape route? I would be up in the middle of the night thinking, do I hear something? Wanting to scream? And this. I say this because this is a big thing theme in my childhood that lasted years.

Childhood Fears and True Crime Curiosity

Lauren Matthias [00:24:27] I'm jumping ahead. Like, I remember being 11 and screaming for my dad in the middle of the night and he had to run upstairs. And I just thought someone was in my house. This started very young and lasted a very long time, which we'll get into.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:43] And so looking back with adult eyes, I just think I was processing my fear of death. Like, what this contradiction to what I'm being taught in church and what the World really is. And I also remember in elementary school, going to the playground and having girls say, oh, look, there's Satan coming out of a house. It was recess and taking it very literally and fearful. And then someone saying, well, if you look in a mirror in the middle of the night and say, bloody Mary, Satan's going to appear. And being absolutely afraid of mirrors at night for years. Like, just so afraid. And my mother started noticing.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:24] My mother was very aware. She was. She was very nurturing. And I remember my dad was out of town, and she went and she bought me Cinderella, actually, just to watch at night because I could not sleep. And I still have Disney Cinderella memorized. Like, I can. I can recite almost the whole thing still, because I would just watch it every night, which is interesting, because I think I saw her in this very abusive situation, because that's the thing. I know that everyone's like, oh, Cinderella just gets rescued. And that is a problem, because that did affect me. But she also. They started with, she's being abused by her stepmother and her.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:02] And these people are horrible to her. But she. She also, you know, doesn't stop dreaming and perseveres and, you know, saves herself, I guess, through her beauty and kindness. We'll get to that. But, you know.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] But wasn't there a murder attempt in Cinderella?

Lauren Matthias [00:26:18] Or am I. I think the original. The original. Well, yeah, and. And the wicked stepmother completely dehumanizes her and, like, wants to kill her when she finds out she's in love with the prince. And. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:26:27] It's like true crime in there.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:28] There. Definite true crime. Cinderella. Yeah, but she's kind and she's beautiful, and, you know, of course. Yeah. Then she falls in love at first sight. And I know. I know all the. I. I know all the problems with Cinderella, but I would watch that show and. Yeah, so I think. I think that was a big part of my childhood. Oh, and then I even remember, like, in first grade, this was like, the era of McRuff the crime dog. I mean, they talked about kidnappers in first grade. Dick, you're gonna be kidnapped. And I remember a McGruff the crime dog police officer coming in and talking to us in first grade, like, as you walk home from school, because we all walked home from school alone.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:05] Then, you know, there were no surveillance cameras. When you walk home from school, look for the McGruff crime dog house. They're the safe houses. And I remember thinking, that is bull. Like, if I was a kidnapper, I would be like, make me a McGruff crime house, so that. Or McGruff dog crime house, so that the kids will be lured in. So I remember I would walk past houses where I'd see McGruff the crime dog in the window and just think, dude, that's freaky. Like, just be scared of that house because, like, they're. I know who they are. They're playing one on me.

Mindy Caldwell [00:27:38] So, yeah, that's really fascinating that you would work that out. You know what I mean? Kind of twist it to be like, it's a trap.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:45] Yeah. You know where I went.

Mindy Caldwell [00:27:47] Yeah. It's interesting to hear you talk about the fear of being kidnapped. I don't know if young kids now have that same fear, but I think growing up in the 80s, we heard a lot about. We did a lot about kidnapping and stranger danger and the milk carton kids were missing kids, and it was a big fear. Maybe that's just intrinsically a childhood fear, but I don't know. I felt that a lot.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:11] Did you?

Mindy Caldwell [00:28:13] Is it more a girl thing?

John Dehlin [00:28:14] No, for sure. But I also just want to note for your particular story, there's a combination of, I would say precociousness in the sense that you're pondering existential things at age 7. But also, I don't want to pretend any diagnosis, but there seems to be a high level of anxiety, probably that then when you start learning about the dangers in the world and the realities of the world, you internalize that and process it in what I would say is a very sophisticated way relative to what probably I and lots of other kids might have done. But. But there may be a teeny bit of scrupulosity in this story as it unfolds. And that's. That's what I. I was mentioning that to Grayson before we started.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:00] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Yeah. Just high level of conscientiousness.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:29:06] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] And that sounds like fear, right, to

Lauren Matthias [00:29:09] what you just said. I just think that's interesting. I think I want to say this as far as intention goes, too, when I said at the beginning of this interview, like, a lot of people wonder what I believe. I think a part of this is finding out what I believe, too. And so you pointing out those things to me, like, you're the. You're the Mormon stories expert. You're the. You're the podcast. I appreciate that. I just want to say, like, okay, let's go on, like, tell me more. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] Well, I don't know anything, but I'm just kind of observing as I go, and I'LL float a thing here or there, but you're the expert on your life, not me.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:43] Well, you're the expert on Mormonism, so fill me in. Fill me in.

Mindy Caldwell [00:29:49] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:50] From there.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] McGruff the crime dog.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:53] I know. Yeah. That was an interesting.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] No, but you noting that the type of person, it's just kind of like, who is often drawn to be a Boy Scout leader. People who would abuse Boy Scouts. Right. Like you noting that as a kid, that a Stranger Danger or McGruff Crime Dog sticker might actually be a warning sign, not a safety invitation. Shows a real intense level of sophistication for a young kid.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:25] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:26] I thought it was just kind of twisty, but okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] It's cool.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:29] Yeah. Well, yeah, so. So that. That leads me to baptism. So I was very excited to get baptized, A.J. because it was special. I had my white dress again. I always kind of felt special. I was the only girl for the majority of my life. My family did adopt my sister at age 22, but I grew up the only girl between four boys. But I was very much the only child, too. People say, oh, were you so spoiled? I'm like, I was actually pretty much the only child or the middle child. Not the only. Like, I was very middle. But these moments, you know, I got my pretty white dress and.

Baptism, Journaling, and Scripture

Lauren Matthias [00:31:04] And. But I remember being gifted a book about baptism, and I really wanted to understand it. And reading the book and liking it, I would recognize the book. But I did try to find it on Google. I can't find it, you know, but I read this maroon hardback book. It had a picture of a boy and a girl in the front, a photograph, and it talked about the Holy Ghost and how the Holy Ghost would protect us.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:31] And the thing about baptism I was most excited about was getting the Holy Ghost so that it could protect me. And it said that it would give me warnings, and if I listened to it, it would tell me about danger.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:48] And that happened everywhere I went. I would be trying to listen. Is the Holy Ghost trying to say I'm in a dangerous situation? And even my prayers at night, I. I prayed every night. I would just lay down and pray. You know, I wouldn't kneel, but I would always pray to God. I'm grateful for that, by the way. I think my prayers growing up were very.

Lauren Matthias [00:32:12] It was like meditation. I would just lay in bed and thank him and ask and keep me safe and. But I. I, yeah, would owe it to God to always listen to the Holy Ghost. And so I remember, like, being on A bike ride and thinking, am I feeling that something's wrong? Is the Holy Ghost trying to tell me something's wrong on this bike ride? I remember thinking, jump off the bike. And I would jump off the bike. You're not. You're both not. And I would just be like, it's told me to jump. You know, maybe a car was going to hit me. Maybe the Holy Ghost was saying, this car was going to hit you, but you had to jump off the bike.

Lauren Matthias [00:32:47] And so I would do that, or then it would be out, and it would be, go home right now. Go home. And so I think was that the Holy Ghost and I would go home right then. So maybe that's what you were talking about. And so, yeah, there was sort of this obsession with the Holy Ghost protecting me, which is funny. I didn't worry about sinning as much. I. I just worried about it keeping me safe and listening to it. I think I would try to repent. The book said, you know, if. If you do something wrong, you repent so you can keep the Holy Ghost.

Lauren Matthias [00:33:19] So I'm sure I. In my prayers, I. I said sorry for things so that I could always have the Holy Ghost. But it was. The Holy Ghost was the ultimate goal, so it could help me and keep me safe. And.

Lauren Matthias [00:33:33] Yeah. I think, though, I. I want to point out this, jumping ahead, though, as far as the Holy Ghost goes in teenagehood and in young adulthood, I think in many ways it may have helped me be more assertive because I. It actually became a. I can trust myself. I mean, because, let's be honest, the Holy Ghost is your conscience and your internal dialogue. I know that.

Lauren Matthias [00:33:58] Your intuition, your instincts. So I think, actually, I want to point this out. While it might have been an obsession as a child, I think that as a teenager or a young adult, it allowed me to trust my intuition and know what I felt was real.

John Dehlin [00:34:15] I like that.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:15] So I want to give it that credit.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] Like it.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:19] But yeah, as a child, I was just like, yeah, avoid McGruff, the crime doghouses, and the Holy Ghost will let me know. Anything else?

Mindy Caldwell [00:34:28] Jump off the bike.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:29] Right? Jump off the bike. I'm going to get hit by a car. Well, I'd hear those in primary, too. I remember. I remember a primary lesson where they said that this boy was riding his bike and he felt that he should get off the sidewalk. And as he got off the sidewalk, a car came rushing, speeding by, and he would have been hit. That was a story I remember taught in primary. Okay, like, I've got To listen.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] Yeah. Beautiful. I love it.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:56] So I'm trying to think, where next?

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Journal writing.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:59] Oh, journal writing. Yeah. Very avid journal writer throughout childhood, throughout teenagehood. If you want to hate yourself, be a young adult reading your junior high journals. I'm like, I don't know why anyone told me to keep those. Let's go burn those. But.

Mindy Caldwell [00:35:17] But you didn't burn them.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:18] I didn't. They're in the garage somewhere right now. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:35:21] I always feel sad when I hear of people, like, destroying their journals.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:24] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:35:24] Because there's lessons in there. Right. It's cringy.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] They're super cringey.

Mindy Caldwell [00:35:29] So cringey. So cringy. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:32] So cring. Our poor kids now that write it all on social media. But yeah, so I was a. I always loved to write. And again, I was very sort of alone in my thoughts as a child. Like I said, I had this one friend. And Abby, though I want to say Abby was this one person I connected to. She did move away at the end of third grade. I was very sad. In fact, I wrote a big essay about it in my journal when she moved away about my sadness.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:59] And I didn't meet another best friend that I connected to after that quite a few years. And so I was. I was just a one girl, you know, one friend girl. And so it was very kind of lonely after that. But again, I'm so glad I had her from kindergarten to the end of third grade. She was such a important part of my life. But I wrote in my journal, so again, I was sort of left out of what my dad and older brothers were doing. And my mother was really consumed with taking care of my little brothers. She took good care of me, too.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:31] I don't want to say that, but there was just. I'm a middle child. There's this, this natural gaps, nobody's fault. It is what it is, the mistake. Born in New York City, you know.

Mindy Caldwell [00:36:41] Remind us how old you were when your little brothers were born. Is there. Did you say there's a five year gap?

Lauren Matthias [00:36:45] Yeah. My mother had a miscarriage, so she did not have my first little brother until I was five. So I was the youngest for five years. So I was very nurtured. I. I think I have strong attachment because of that. My mother was so sweet with children.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:58] And then I was very excited for my two little brothers. So they were both born two years apart. So one was five years younger. And then my youngest brother, Jamie, who I adored, was seven years younger. And I was very close to them because my older Brothers wouldn't play with me. And I love kids and I loved being playful and I. So I was very close to my little brothers. I was their babysitter. We would be so imaginative and just have so much fun. But yeah, so they were. There was a gap though. So they had needs that, you know, my mother had to take care of.

Lauren Matthias [00:37:34] And so I was this absolute, like every night in my journal. My mother actually, bless her soul, my first journal entry is when I'm like three or four and she's writing, she's scribing it and it's my words exactly. And I'm saying strawberry shortcake birthday. I love it. I've seen songs and it's actually some of my favorite journals and my mother did that. So there's probably half a journal full of just my mother scribing my thoughts.

Mindy Caldwell [00:38:04] That's really meaningful.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] That's the next level journaling.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:07] Yeah. So I owe it to my mom for actually doing that for me.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] And you and Joseph Smith had scribes in your journal.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:15] Thanks, mom. And. But I think that there are a couple, a few reasons I was such a big journal writer. A. I loved writing. You know, Taylor Swift writes songs, my brothers play music. I write. It's just sort of my outlet. And I think that it was a way to express myself.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:40] And looking back, even though I want to burn a handful of them, they were probably really healthy. It was probably. I didn't have therapy growing up, but it was probably a replacement for therapy in many ways to sort of understand myself.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:53] But I also think I had a fear of being forgotten. And I think it went back to the fear of death again, that I was just dust. Right. Like, you live, you die. Like no one will remember me unless I write stuff down. And I say that as an adult. Looking back, I'm not consciously thinking as a eight year old writing in my journal, I'm gonna die. So I have to leave this. And then I think the third reason we're lessons in church though, you would.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:26] We study the scriptures. Those are ancient journals. We talk about our pioneer ancestors so much and what do we know about them from the journals they kept? And how precious I remember lesson they. If Fannie Mae, I'd made that name up. But if, if, you know, Annie Mae Simpson didn't keep that journal, we would have never known what really happened in the lion house that day. You know, it's like, okay, maybe we don't even know. Yeah, that's probably a journal that I want to burn.

Mindy Caldwell [00:40:01] Very pushed. Yeah, I was very Encouraged, pray, read

John Dehlin [00:40:05] your scriptures, have a garden, do a food store, you know, a two year food storage. And write journals. Right? I mean it was. I've got like six journals from just my up to my mission.

Lauren Matthias [00:40:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. But I remember two particular journals. I wrote a very long essay when Abby moved about my sadness. And then when my grandpa man wearing died suddenly of a heart attack, that was the chiropractor in East Idaho. A65. So it was 89. Writing a very long journal about how sad I was. My mom didn't notice those and she said, she kind of encouraged me. She's like, you could be a writer one day. You, you like to write. And she pointed out to someone, she's like, look, Lauren's like writing essays about everything that happens in her life. And I remember her showing that to somebody and saying like, you could be a writer, you could be a journalist one day. So I do remember that.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] And you had a Justice Warrior kind of slant as well, right?

Lauren Matthias [00:41:01] Yeah, I actually, funny enough, even a year ago, I was recently I found an old box of all of these

John Dehlin [00:41:08] old

Lauren Matthias [00:41:10] like writings from elementary school. And I open them up and it's all. Yeah, I, I was a Justice Warrior. It was like I was talking about endangered animals in third grade. We need to save endangered animals. I was talking about how much I hated pollution. And I had like a factory with smoke. Like, we've got to stop pollution.

Lauren Matthias [00:41:27] I talked about. This was also a third grade Martin Luther King and how he helped. You know, it wasn't written in the best. I was like, it was a little cringy to read it. But you know, my effort, my, my intention was there about how Rosa Parks and so, yeah, endangered animals, those were the things that I would also write about in school. And I had undiagnosed ADD growing up. I know many women are. Girls are undiagnosed because the, the hyper, the adhd, the hyper isn't always as obvious.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:01] But I think I was just very imaginative. It was very hard for me to concentrate on things. I think that's actually one reason I don't play a musical instrument like the rest of my family is because I just, my mother couldn't get me to just practice. I was frustrated. I wanted to play right then, but somehow and at school, you know, I would miss assignments and I didn't know always what was going on. But whenever there was a writing assignment, I, I could focus on that.

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:27] So.

John Dehlin [00:42:28] Love it.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] All right, we're getting a good picture of little, little Lauren. Yeah, I love It.

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:36] Did you keep in touch with Abby? Were you pen pals?

Lauren Matthias [00:42:39] Yes. Still? Yeah, we still text. She moved away to New Jersey, and then she moved to Virginia. And, yeah, we. We still keep in touch. I. I hope to see her, actually, this summer.

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:51] Oh, I love that.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:52] Yeah.

Moving to Bountiful and Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:42:55] All right. So. So where do we go from here? We go to kind of moving to Bountiful. Is that the next.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] Phase of your life?

Lauren Matthias [00:43:03] That was the next phase. So When I was 10, my family made a really big decision to just move away from Salt Lake City into the suburbs, too. Bountiful. My dad had a few friends and business partners moving up there, so he felt like he could hitch a ride to Salt Lake City to work every day. There wasn't. There was a house in the mountains, a new area. I mean, so this is in Bountiful.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:29] Really high up in the East Bench. Yeah. Yeah, up high in the mountains. And these houses in the mid-90s were new. They were all new. So also, we lived in, like, a historic neighborhood in Salt Lake. So these were. This was very different than. I was used to some new homes, and we were the first persons to live. First people to live in this house. And it was big, and it was white, and it was modern, and so we moved in. And I think my dad did just have an idea that, like, you know, that his sons would plow this steep, you know, driveway in this winter and, you know, just do yard work.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:04] And I think he just thought, maybe I want my kids to, you know, experience, you know, a little bit more of the outdoors. And I. I don't know what he was thinking, because I actually. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:44:15] Is. Is bountiful. The wilderness, Mindy, as far as your East Bench, Bountiful.

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:20] You guys are really roughing it up there.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] That's pretty much.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:23] I felt I was in the middle of nowhere. I felt I was in the middle of nowhere.

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:27] It would feel that way at that time when you had been used to living kind of in downtown Salt Lake City. I can see how you'd feel that way, but. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:34] Yeah. Well, also, you know, there's no Internet. We only had three channels.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] Yes, yes.

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:41] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:42] There's no cable.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] Basically, for Great Depression,

Lauren Matthias [00:44:47] a big, beautiful home. So, yeah, no Great Depression. It was. It was a very large, beautiful, fancy home. So there was no Great Depression. And I had a beautiful mountain bike that, you know, I could go out and ride, and I read a lot, and I play with my little siblings a lot. But there was no, you know. Yeah, I wasn't going next door to play with my friends, it wasn't. We weren't walking to church anymore. So. So it was just. It was different. From what, you know, you're in Salt Lake City, you're like, what, Feet away from your neighbors and so this is beautiful.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:20] You have land and it's, it's, you know, it was just. It was different. And I think that bountiful was really enjoyable actually for my older brothers. I shouldn't speak for them. I don't know. I'm. This is my own story. But I. It was very hard for me to move to Bountiful and I felt so. All of a sudden there were seven girls in my Sunday school class. I had. So I'd like I said, I. I had never even had a girl my age in my Sunday school class. And they were all so nice. Like I was invited to a sleepover the week I arrived from the girls in the ward.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:56] I was like, oh, and. And they were all, all sweet. But I, I remember just feeling like. And this is so funny because it's not like there was a lot of diversity in my Salt Lake City class. Pictures I look and we're all white. You know what I mean? So trust me, there wasn't a lot of diversity in Salt Lake City back then either. But I remember feeling in Bountiful, there's no diversity. I don't know if I knew that word, but I remember feeling like everybody is the same. No one understands me. Nobody's talking about things I want to talk about. I remember the gossip.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:34] I remember my mother meeting friends in the ward and they would talk about whose children were doing what. And I don't know, I just remember thinking like, I don't. And I feel so bad. Bountiful's great. I have so many friends from bountiful. This is my personal experience. So this is just me as a 10 year old trying to like, transition. I also didn't have any friends. And so I remember not feeling understood. You know, I just remember not feeling understood and alone and confused. And then it was just say you

John Dehlin [00:47:03] were raised outside of a Mormon bubble mindset. I mean, Brooklyn, right? Romania. And there is no thicker, bigger bubble than 90s bound of Mormon bubble than 90s bountiful. So you're like, where am I? What am I? What is happening right now? Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:47:22] I think what I remember feeling is they. Things that mattered to them didn't matter to me. That's what I felt like.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] I'm sure it wasn't all about Martin Luther King in your. In your ward and pollution in Your ward.

Lauren Matthias [00:47:34] Right, Right. I just. I just felt like a misfit a little bit.

Mindy Caldwell [00:47:40] I can see that.

Lauren Matthias [00:47:41] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:47:41] I think you were raised. Being raised in a more progressive, you know, LDS family than I'm sure you even realized at the time.

Lauren Matthias [00:47:49] But, yeah, I didn't know that felt normal to you.

Mindy Caldwell [00:47:52] But, yeah, I can see going to a place that's way more homogenous even than Salt Lake City.

Lauren Matthias [00:47:57] Yeah, that would.

Mindy Caldwell [00:47:58] And you already feel like a misfit when you're a new. How old were you? 10. When you're moving to a new grade school and trying to make friends, you already feel like a misfit. But then, right.

Lauren Matthias [00:48:07] Fifth, sixth grade for girls is not easy. And I was, you know, I was changing and I wasn't the cutest. I'm a late bloomer, guys. Like, I like you. Look at these pictures of me. Like, I was awkward, like, which, you know, I love it. But, you know, so I'm not coming in there, like the cutest girl that everyone wants to become friends with either. Like, I was quiet. I. Yeah. You know, I. I didn't know how to, you know, I needed to meet friends, like. Yeah. So. Yeah. And by the time you get to a school in fifth and sixth grade, they already have all of their friends. They've all been raised there. So it was just. It's not anybody's fault. It was just hard for me. Like, it's going to be hard for any fifth or sixth grader to move,

John Dehlin [00:48:46] but it's a super Mormon area. I'm pretty sure Jeffrey Holland, as an apostle, was living around Bountiful at that time. Irene.

Lauren Matthias [00:48:53] Irene's daughter was in my class.

Mindy Caldwell [00:48:55] Yeah, Henry.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] Henry, Irene's daughter. Yeah. Mormon apostles chose Bountiful as a place to live in the 90s, you know what I mean?

Lauren Matthias [00:49:02] It's.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] It's thickest, most intense, conservative, wealthy, affluent Mormonism.

Mindy Caldwell [00:49:09] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:09] And it was really hard. And I don't think anyone was really noticing either because my mother, she's talked to me about it now as an adult. I didn't fully understand, but she was suffering from severe depression and Bountiful and suffering with hypothyroidism. And she was in bed a lot and just dealing with things. I also learned later that she started therapy and I overheard her saying, like, yeah, they're saying that all these LDS women are coming. So I think my mother was actually feeling the pressure too, looking back. And I think maybe for my brothers and my dad, it was great, like, bountiful. But, like, what I remember is there Was a girl I really liked.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:41] She was very sweet. She was in my ward. Um, I probably connected to her more than anyone. But when. Whenever I'd go over to her house. So her older brother was friends with my older brother and they gotta do whatever they want whenever she was over there. She was the oldest girl. There were like eight kids in the family. She was always cooking and cleaning and they were always like, sweetheart, do this. Sweetheart, do this. Like, you gotta do this. While her older brother was taking a nap and doing whatever. Like, I think all of a sudden this thing that I was shielded from, like this female role like that, you know.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:13] Yeah, I was always called a tomboy. And yeah, I felt a separation between my brothers and what they got to do and what I got to do. But I could always push through. But I think in Bountiful, especially getting older too, it became very apparent that.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:27] That there was a separation between females and males. And it was becoming very clear to me and very frustrating. And then of course, I'm getting older, I'm kind of awkward looking. I'm not meeting friends. Like, I see the girls I would want to be friends with, they're not particularly liking me.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:46] It just. And then again, I'm hearing the. I remember hearing like petty gossip between women at the ward. Like, even I'm just thinking, like, why do they care about this stuff? And it was very hard and. But it was the. It was the woman's role. And I remember this. This friend of mine, her mother actually became good friends with my mom and they would hang out a lot. Very sweet family.

Family Struggles and Leaving Bountiful

Lauren Matthias [00:51:11] But I think that even rubbed off on my mom a little bit because then she started pressuring me like, lauren, can you babysit? And she's dealing with depression. I remember standing up to her once. I remember this day in Bountiful. Lauren, will you babysit? You know, my little brothers? And looking at her and going, why don't my older brothers ever have to. Why does it have to be me?

Mindy Caldwell [00:51:32] I was going to ask you that question where starting to see these same gender roles formating in your own family.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:37] Yes. And I think it was. Honestly too, like, it was affecting my mother too, I think, yeah, you know, she's. And she's dealing with her depression and all this stuff. And I go, why does it have to be me? And I fought back. Why can't my older brothers do it? I always have to be the one. And she starts crying. She has depression. You know, I mean, I'm sure, like, bless my mom.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:58] And it did not end well. I remember feeling guilt that I did that, you know, because she's like, I need your help. But I think looking back, this. It was all. It was like, the pressure of how. That's what I was feeling in bountiful was this division of the male and female roles very strongly for the first time. I even remember my dad cracking a joke about girls not having the priesthood and bountiful, and he was trying to be funny. That's. You know, he diffuses things with humor and, like, trying to think, well, you know, you don't have the priesthood. And I remember that, like, thinking, like, what?

Lauren Matthias [00:52:37] Like, what is this? Like, what is this? So I was very. I. I think I was very angry and defiant about this. So I was very angry and defiant about this. The separation of roles that I was seeing clearly for the first time.

Lauren Matthias [00:52:55] And I think I was pushing back a lot on my mom. And I also felt like I wasn't connecting to my mom as much as I used to because we were close when I was a child. And again, she's dealing with her own stuff, so that's probably part of it. I can't go back and see everything for what it was. But I remember, like, longing for her and her understanding and her acceptance of me.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:17] And I think she was clearly, like, wanting something from me that I wasn't giving her because I was rebelling. And I remember there was a day I hit young women and bountiful and I was introduced into young women.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:31] And our teacher said that day, hey, I have had all of your mothers write you letters today and handed out all the envelopes to us. I remember being so excited because I think I was just longing for a connection that, you know, wasn't there.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:51] And I opened the letter and it was. I don't even blame her, but whatever was going on, she wrote about how she hopes that one day I can understand the difference between men and women. And she's like, there are different roles between men and women. And I hope that one day you will understand and embrace this.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:12] I remember signatures being like, I can't believe that this is, like, the letter I just got. And I remember going home that day and going to my room and going to the other side of my bed and sitting down and looking at the letter and like. Like. Like I was very. I would get very frustrated, and, like, I was difficult, you know, just, like, looking at the letter and just screaming and then just ripping it up and just, like, screaming and just, like, being so angry that that's.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:38] But the letter said. And I I don't blame my mom for that. Like, she. I. I think she was feeling it and Bountiful. Because what happened is my mom and I actually both ended up. We did end up connecting, and we both fasted together and prayed so that we could find a home in Salt Lake and move back to Salt Lake.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:56] And I think when we moved back there, I did see my mom, like, start to lighten up, too, I think, a little bit, and maybe feel less pressure. So I don't blame my mom, but I just had a very hard time in Bountiful.

John Dehlin [00:55:11] Was that letter basically your mom saying conform to stereotypical Mormon gender roles? Was that. Is that what I'm hearing?

Lauren Matthias [00:55:23] I think so. I think so. As I look back at my memory,

John Dehlin [00:55:26] she's depressed and in therapy and. She's depressed in therapy and housewife and Bountiful.

Lauren Matthias [00:55:31] Yeah. Right here. They also overhearing her say, you know, they say all these LDS women are suffering. Right. And she's struggling. And. And I think, like I said, I think there's this moment of this tension of me pushing back and saying my brother should be babysitting, and I'm seeing how my friends being treated, and I. I think I'm. I could be rebelling more than I even knew. I was rebelling against whatever this was, but enough that we're developing whatever, you know, and she somehow felt that this is what she needed to lovingly teach me in this letter. And it was just like the opposite

Mindy Caldwell [00:56:10] of everything she's seeing. She knows what your future looks like, you know, as an LDS woman. And maybe she's seeing these feelings of injustice sprouting in you and just trying to encourage you to, like, get with the program, because maybe that's it. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Yeah, get on the trade or run you. You over. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:56:31] Yeah, right. Yeah. She sees these injustices creeping in on me, and she's like, yeah, get in line, because this is your future. Yeah, maybe so. But. But we do. We. You know, we. We fast and we pray. You know, that was how we did it. You know, why don't we do this so that.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] Dear Heavenly Father, get us out of Bountiful.

Lauren Matthias [00:56:52] And we moved back to Salt Lake City. So, yeah, so we went back to the Salt Lake City area.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] Was that Washington Federal Heights at that point? Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:57:00] Yeah, so that's removed when I was 12, middle of seventh grade. And like, I. I remember this. Like, I remember we moved and I took the city bus to junior high, and I didn't know anyone. And I remember being really Overwhelmed.

Lauren Matthias [00:57:16] But I remember being very happy. Like, I remember seeing all, like, I remember like seeing like a dude that was like a skater and like. Like all these people that, like, not even I would hang out with because, like, I don't want to pretend that, like, I was out hanging out with all these people that like, I valued diversity. But I wasn't. I was still in my bubble. Let's be honest. I don't want to, like, pretend that.

Lauren Matthias [00:57:39] But I remember feeling safer around a diversity of people. Like, I was just like, okay, this is good, you know, I still ended up meeting girls similar to me that I hung out with, but it just felt a lot better and I felt a lot more relaxed. And our home growing up. Yeah, like, I felt a lot better in the ward. The ward was so nice.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:04] They were everything just like. Like the difference is like, yeah, the petty gossip wasn't part of it anymore. People cared about things I cared about. I remember, like my home was sort of this open door policy. My dad would teach free guitar lessons every Sunday night to all the neighborhood kids. And then we would all watch Simpsons together. It was like a tradition at our houses on Sunday nights. It was Sunday on the Sabbath. I remember my mom and dad started going out to eat again more on Sundays because that was like a thing. So in Bountiful we didn't do that as much, but in Salt Lake we started.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:35] So I think it was just like everybody was relaxing a little bit and. And the ward was great. Like, for an example, and I. I use this is. My young women's teacher was like, I think that we should all go see Schindler's List together. It was in the theater.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:53] That's a rated R movie. And she's like, let's get permission from all your parents. We all got permission. We went. And that's how I felt about things. Like, I thought people that didn't watch rated R movies were weird. Like, it's. It's an encouragement. We can know what we should and shouldn't watch. Like, use your brain. Schindler's List is a historical, important movie that we all need to understand. Like, of course we can watch that movie. So, yeah, so that's just, that's just where it felt better.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Yeah. And I just as. As an observer and as someone who knows a little bit about some of these areas, my cousin Brett Parkinson, who's a radiologist, he's in this ward up in Federal Heights. I'm pretty sure the Elizabeth Smart and her family was. Was raised in this ward area.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:43] Yeah. It's actually my stake, so I was.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:46] But yes, it's all the same ward building and it's all the community.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] It's like this community that's south. Is it south of the Utah Salt Lake Capitol. And it's right down up the hill from like the university.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:58] Just right by the Avenue Hospital.

John Dehlin [01:00:00] And there's a lot of doctors there, a lot of non Mormons that move from out of state. It's a very intellectual area.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:08] University of Utah.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] Yeah. Instead of a super conservative religious area. And it's my, my cousin Brett would have lots of reasons to maybe not necessarily be an active, faithful Mormon, but it's just this amazing ward and this amazing community of intellectually New York Times reading, progressive, tolerant, loving Mormons.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] That make this area very special when compared to Provo Orem, you know, Highland, Alpine and, And bountiful. You know what I mean?

Lauren Matthias [01:00:42] Special. No, I agree. Thank you for saying that and explaining it. And. But I also want to point out too, like, as you say, it's special. You know, normal is what one is accustomed to. I thought we were just normal. Like I thought that's what Mormonism was.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:55] So I want to point that out too because you know, when I watch Mormon stories, I have to be honest, sometimes I'm like, that wasn't my experience.

John Dehlin [01:01:03] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:03] And then of course, the more Mormon stories I watch, the more I'm like, okay, so maybe I wasn't normal, but I grew up thinking that that totally. I. That's what Mormonism is.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:01:16] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:16] But you're saying, no, that's special.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] I'm like, that's a super educated ward and a thoughtful, globally minded.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] Board.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:26] And it's, it's rare in Utah in my opinion.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:29] Very accepting.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:30] Very welcoming. Very.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:32] Humanistic too. They just very. A lot of service. A lot of people think, you know, there are. You say there's educated, there's wealthy people, but they're very service minded, good people.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Yeah. Yeah. Glad you got out of bountiful. Okay. No, no offense. Lots of battlefield people end up on Mormon stories, by the way. So you draw your own conclusions about what that means.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:00] Sorry about it.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Also Davis County, a lot of Davis Dart people on.

Mindy Caldwell [01:02:03] I'm listening to your story about going to Schindler's List. That just seems so foreign to me.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] Right. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:02:08] Yeah. I can't imagine in the ward that I grew up in in Davis county that that would even make it to the drawing board, you know, so it's just interesting. I think it's Fascinating that you were able to have an experience with the Ward family that was just so much more progressive and open minded and globally minded and. Yeah, I think I. I find that really beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] And I feel like that's Mormonism, because that's what you experienced.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:35] Yeah, yeah. Again, normal one is accustomed to. Right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:02:38] Lens and our own experience. Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:40] So that's. That's what Mormonism was for me, was that.

John Dehlin [01:02:43] Yeah. All right. So high school comes.

High School Identity and Academic Challenges

Lauren Matthias [01:02:49] High school comes. So.

John Dehlin [01:02:53] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:53] So, you know, while I was happy to be back in Salt Lake and I had some dear friends, you know, a couple, like I said, I was just sort of like, I just had one or two friends here, and that's all I needed.

Lauren Matthias [01:03:05] You know, transitioning from childhood to being a teenager and woman is always hard. You know, I don't. So. I don't. It was very hard for me. It was very hard for me. And I think I transitioned, like, really honestly from like a little girl to a woman. Like, and so I was never, like, I was never like, obese or anything, but I was not like this petite, cute little thing. Like, I was just. I was just awkward. Maybe that's just the best way to explain. I don't even want to. Like, it doesn't even matter. It doesn't even matter what it was. Maybe I was adorable.

Lauren Matthias [01:03:42] I didn't feel that way. I felt ugly. I felt unwanted. I felt misunderstood. And then, of course, yeah, you could just get into all the hormones and everything going on. I'm sure, you know, it all had to do with it. But like a lot of self hate, I think started to come and insecurities. And I think I also really resented. It was very clear to me how people were treating me differently. Like when I was a child, you're just special. Like, you're just love for who you are. And as a little girl, as you grew up into a teenager, that doesn't matter anymore. All that matters is what I looked like.

Lauren Matthias [01:04:20] And I felt that very powerfully that nobody cared about me anymore. All they cared about was what I looked like. And I wasn't very cute. I wasn't as cute as my friends. Maybe that's a good way to compare it. I knew that.

Lauren Matthias [01:04:36] And just a lot of I. I knew that God loved me. And I. I almost want to say that I think that was a transitional like. Like object for me. You know, how like a baby transitions to like a blanket when they don't have their mother as much. And it's like their transitional object. And that's why they kind of get so attached to this blanket because it's sort of replacing the mother for a second as they grow up. I think that my deep, like, need for God during this time was sort of like a transitional object. I had no self love at all, but I knew God loved me.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:14] And so God became this safe place for me. Even though I wasn't understood and I didn't have any friends understood me and boys weren't gonna like me and I can't wear the same cute clothes my friends wear and I'm not understanding how to do makeup and, you know, make things better.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:33] God loved me. And my God was a very loving God. I've learned that too. Like, everyone interprets God differently, right? God is different to every single one of us. How do we interpret God? The God in my brain was a very loving God. He was a God that would laugh at me when I did stupid stuff and shake his head when I swore. Like, he was very loving and very forgiving. And this God loved me unconditionally.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:00] So I had a deep, unconditional love from God. So even though I couldn't love myself and I guess things got so bad that my mother started to notice and my mother took me to a doctor. Even, like, she could tell I was just very depressed. So anyway, it got to the point where I wouldn't get up for school. I started, I went to East High School. It was ninth grade, which is where

John Dehlin [01:06:28] High School Musical was filmed.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:29] For those who don't know, High School Musical.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] Very iconic.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:33] Yes, very iconic. I went there before Zac Efron died. I was pre Zac Efron and starting like junior high was really hard. I mean, junior high is just like really awkward and hard. But so I think I had, I was very excited for ninth grade. Also, like my old neighborhood in Salt Lake. A lot of those friends from my elementary school were going to be there. So I think I had like, high expectations. And it just was often, like I said, like, I'm in this new body because everything's changing. I don't, I don't have a lot of close friends. I don't know how to meet friends.

Lauren Matthias [01:07:07] I don't have confidence, self loathing. So my mom asks if I want to do homeschool and so I. I do homeschool for a while. Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. Funny enough, I never got credit for it. I only did it one semester.

Lauren Matthias [01:07:22] And then I just had to hustle to make sure I graduated on time. But I, yeah, I, I got so Depressed. My mother taught me for a semester, and she was great. And actually, I still remember a lot of things I learned, you know, from. From her that semester. You did good, Mom. But, yeah, so. But then I decided I wanted to go back and try it. And I think that was, like, actually a perfect opportunity to just take a break. Because then I was like, okay, I'm ready.

Lauren Matthias [01:07:47] And then when I went back the next semester, everyone was like, oh, where'd you go? Like, welcome back. And I signed up for creative writing. I signed up for drama. And I remember just loving creative writing. And I remember also having a hard time with the ADHD thing. I could not get good grades. Like, I didn't. That was also shame. Like, all my friends were straight A students. I was like, a straight C. And I would take the test. They would say, put Lauren in Honors English. Like, Lauren is an excellent reader. Lauren. Oh, her. They would say that my math, it was to the point.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:29] My husband's even said, like, maybe you had a learning disability. Because, like, my math, I would, like, be terrible. Like, I'd be like, oh, go put her in, like, beginning math. But my reasoning skills and reading, like, we would be through the roof. They're like, get her in Honors English. Get her in the top.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:43] And then I would go, and I couldn't do it. And I remember, like, even, like, getting placed in Honors English and listening. And I said, get me out of here. Like, I don't want to be here. And they. I asked to be put in basic, so I just couldn't get good grades. And I remember thinking, like, I'm gonna have a good start. I'm gonna get good grades. And, like, doing a homework assignment in biology. And I did it with my. My friend did the same assignment. She was a 4.0 student, and we took it together. She got an A, and I gotta see. And, like, I thought that I did it.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:11] And I went to him. I was like, why? And I burst into tears. Like, So I just stopped caring about grades, too. Like, if I can't get A's whether I try or, like, I got the same grade whether I tried or not. So

John Dehlin [01:09:23] there might have been an anxiety element to that as well. Just overwhelm, you know, like, total ability and horsepower. But maybe. Maybe a sense of overwhelm that you maybe weren't given the skills to kind of manage some of that anxiety, you know?

Lauren Matthias [01:09:41] I just remembered a story that actually pertains to all this. I did ask to be put after I got back in ninth grade in Basic English, so they put me in honors. And then I asked to be put in basic. I was like, please.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:54] And my teacher, Mrs. Lake at East High, we just did journal entries and she said, write about childhood. And interestingly enough, I wrote about my fear. I wrote about how scared I was all the time and how it slowly left me. We turned it in and the next day, school, she was reading my paper to all of her classes, Honors English. I remember girls in my ward that were a year older in honors English were like, yeah, Ms. Lake is like reading your paper. She's like, you're going to be a writer.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:25] And I just want to, you know, she's passed away now. But that I think was one of the biggest self esteem boosters of my that moment. Like, I was so depressed and yeah, to the point, I'm like, please put me in basic English. And then I wrote this paper that she shared with everyone and ironically it was about how scared I was and McGruff crime. Like, you know, I was talking about my fear and I think that that never left me. I wish I could have thanked her for that because I think that that boosted my self esteem or anything. Like, okay, I'm okay. Like, I'm not an idiot.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:00] I know I have some self worth here, but yeah, I just, a lot of, I had friends in high school was great, but I, I really did have a lot of self worth issues, self hatred, self loathing. But God was who loved me unconditionally.

John Dehlin [01:11:18] I wonder if that's a bridge to your patriarchal blessing.

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:21] Yeah. Yes, it is.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:25] So because I felt lost and uncertain and I wanted a plan. I didn't know about patriarchal blessings until my older brother had gotten one and he got one, I think older than me. But it was so interesting to me that it did. It felt like a future and like a path and that good things were happening. I was so intrigued. I wanted one.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] And for our never Mormons, patriarchal blessing is just an old man who you're, you're taught in your Mormon context, has a direct channel to God, lays his hands on your head and basically does story kind of fortune telling. He'll dictate by his own, you know, consciousness. Several pages worth of sort of like, what is going to happen to you in your life?

John Dehlin [01:12:16] And typical things are you're gonna, you know, you're of the tribe of Ephraim, you know, your choice daughter in Zion, and you'll, you'll meet a lovely man and be married in the Lord's temple and you'll serve in the High councils of the church, and you'll have many children, and basically all the things the church would want you to do, somehow they magically appear in your patriarchal blessing. Yes, but sometimes it's formulaic, and sometimes it's deeply meaningful to the people who receive it, but it's always several pages of fortune telling about what's going to happen in your life.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:51] Exactly. And so you know what? As someone that grew up playing Mash, why wouldn't I want this? Right? I was 14. I asked my parents. I don't even think my older brother had gotten his yet, but I wanted it. Like, it was so interesting to me, and I just wanted it. I said, I want to do this. I went for the interview. I was 14 years old. And I remember thinking, just, it was so special to me. I was so excited. It was like the thing. And I remember the patriarch laying his hands on my head. And, you know, you have a scribe that makes you feel special, too. Someone's, like, writing it down. They're gonna print it for you and give it in the plastic, and you're just, this is it. Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] And we're taught it's supposed to be scripture in our lives.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:33] Wow. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So I actually was going to bring it here to read a paragraph, and I forgot. But I think I might have a couple of these sentences memorized. But there was one line in it that affected my life greatly. It's not the worst thing. It's not the worst, but it says. And I think what I was really worried about, too, was because I hated myself and I didn't think I was cute and I was ugly. And because of the roles of women, I was already wondering, like, would I ever be able to be a mother or, like, ever get married?

Lauren Matthias [01:14:11] Because, like, boys aren't gonna like me. Like, I'm like, I. You know, what is my path? Like, I just wanted to be a mother. I did want to be a mother. I loved kids. I loved babysitting. I also had other desires and goals and aspirations, but I did want to be a mom. Like, this idea of this fairy tale Mormon existence was attractive to me.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:34] So I go in there and it says, this is what it said. And that's the big thing. Wouldn't you agree, Mindy? Like, what is it going to say about marriage and kids?

Mindy Caldwell [01:14:40] That's like, you're just hanging on every word, you know? Yeah, I did.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:45] Yeah. So it tells me. Yeah. So it says, you will be married. Yeah, I have this memorized. This is great. You will be Married to a good man, a man of honesty and integrity. A man who will cherish you and whom you in return must cherish. Do not be impatient for this day to come. Let the Lord bring it at his appropriate time. Make your life rich and fulfilling in the meantime.

Mindy Caldwell [01:15:09] Wow.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:11] So in other words, it gave me a lot of comfort. It said I would be cherished. It said not to worry about it. And it said, be patient. Like, as in like you do you, Lauren, you know, like you're good and just go make your life like it's okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:35] And oddly, because we're gonna learn, I got married much later in life, I do think that it calmed me down a little bit. Like, I, you know, it's not the worst thing for a patriarchal blessing to be said to a 14 year old. I mean, it's weird. I. I know we're gonna get, we're gonna get into the patriarchal blessing later. It's gonna play a little bit of a theme, but I think that that helped me a little bit. Like, I think it sort of formed something in me to know that, like, boys don't like me, I don't date, whatever, it doesn't matter because I'm gonna get married a lot later than my friends and I'm not gonna get married soon, and I'm not gonna probably get married even until my late 20s or 30s.

Mindy Caldwell [01:16:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] And you get married to a good guy, right?

Lauren Matthias [01:16:24] I mean, and a man who cherished me.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] Yeah. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:27] Not just that, like, just like, he would love me. So, like, someone would love me. Like, I think that was really important too, because again, I didn't love myself. God loved me. Some guy was gonna love me and see me for who I was, you know, because again, I'm really resenting that.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:43] I'm really resenting as a teenager that all that matters is my looks. And that really upset me. Actually. That was like a very big, like, feminist awakening too. It made me very ang. And maybe it was because I wasn't like the cutest teenager, but I really resented that. All that mattered was the way girls looked. You know, women were sex objects, men were success objects. That's the patriarchy. And I didn't understand why people couldn't see people for who they were. That was like a big theme in my teenager. Like, why can't people just see me for who I am? I'm a. I'm a kind, wonderful person.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:15] But nobody's gonna love me because I don't look perfect. And that was very hurtful to me growing up. And Maybe very angry. Like, I remember reading this book, reviving Ophelia by Dr. Mary Pfeiffer. And, you know, she was a psychologist and she wrote about adolescent girls. And I remember, like, just weeping it, reading in my bed, like, okay, I'm not alone. Like, she understands me. And. But then I put the book away, and the world that I was living in in Salt Lake City, Utah, and Mormonism and East High School wasn't that. It was. No, like, you have to conform. So I'd be, like, trying to conform because I wanted this Mormon fairy tale, and I wanted to get married and get married in the temple, to be a good guy and have lots of kids.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:00] And then I'm reading Mary Pfeiffer telling me that, like, yeah, you should be angry and this is hurtful, and they are with you. Like, you know, like, this, like, this isn't fair. And, like, crying, going like she understands. But then having to shut the book and say, but I've got. But if I want this life, I have to just accept society's roles of what they want me to be. And feeling that and feeling sad.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:27] I can see how that patriarchal blessing, though, would provide a lot of comfort to you at that time, because it seemed to address some of your insecurities that you were having, you know, and encouraging you to be patient and also that, you know, the time would come that you would be cherished. And you were talking about maybe if others didn't love me, God loves. God loves me. But I also am guessing that it felt like God sees me, you know, he sees what I'm going through. And that was, you know, a message, particularly for that time in your life. I can see how that would have been really meaningful, you know, at the time, to feel like I'm understood. Maybe I feel misunderstood in other ways, but I feel understood in this moment with that.

President Hinckley's Influence and Teen Faith

Lauren Matthias [01:19:11] Yeah, right. I actually just had a memory pop up. I even wrote the newspaper. I, I, you know, when you wrote those opinion pieces, I wrote in high school, opinion piece about how angry I was that girls were, you know, judged for what they looked like. And they, I remember they published it and someone in my ward saw it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:19:28] You submitted it to the, the local newspaper.

Lauren Matthias [01:19:31] It was like Desert News or Salt Lake Tribune. And then someone in the ward saw it. I think I remember being embarrassed because there was a typo at the end and thinking, that's not what I said. But, yeah, wow, Lauren. So I was, I was, Yeah, I was.

Mindy Caldwell [01:19:44] So you got feedback from somebody in your ward. Was it positive feedback? Or were they.

Lauren Matthias [01:19:48] Like, he just said. He said, was that you, Lauren, that wrote that? And I think that I didn't know it had been published yet. I was like, oh, yeah, that was me. And I. And he goes, I saw it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:20:00] Good job.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:00] Like, you just, you know.

Mindy Caldwell [01:20:01] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:02] And then I went and looked at it, and I remember thinking I was a little embarrassed because, again, the, like, there was, like, a word missing in the last line that, like, changed the meaning of my last line. That's all I remember. But, yeah, but I remember I was so. I felt a little embarrassed after they published it. I remember feeling that. But, yeah, I remember because I was angry about how women were judged for what they looked like.

Mindy Caldwell [01:20:22] Wow, that's really. That's cool. Interesting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:29] This is super powerful, and it really does help explain so much of your journey. I know your. Your fans, your audience are going to love this detail. I'm loving it, you know, so this is great. Super helpful. And, yeah, I love how religion at its best can give us hope, can give us comfort, can give us, you know, even confidence when we wouldn't otherwise have it.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:56] Right. No. Thank you for saying that. Like, I, you know, my little boy, I try to give him some faith for confidence, too. Like, sometimes when people say, oh, we all, you know, think we're so special as Mormons, you know. We do, we do. But then is that. I don't know if that's always bad when you're a child and you need to feel loved and comforted.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] Absolutely. You know, it can be a scary world. I think that's where religion can shine. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:21:25] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] So you mentioned President Hinckley becoming prophet in. Or president of the church in 1995. And that's so vivid for me because I was a huge Larry King fan. And, you know, that's around the time I'm graduating from BYU and starting to pay attention to the news. And so, like, freaking President Gordon B. Hinckley appearing on Larry King Live, you know, like, that was like the.

Lauren Matthias [01:21:54] That was like Mormon Super Bowl. I remember that.

Mindy Caldwell [01:21:57] So exciting.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] Mormon perfect storm, Super Bowl. And. And, you know, you. You become a journalist. So, like, I'm all here for it. Tell us about.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:04] Yeah, no, I remember it so well, too. I. I just want to say I love President Hinckley. I know that people have their issues with him, and they call him the PR profit, which, I mean, maybe it's because I love pr. Like, I understand pr. Like, I. Yeah, he was the PR profit, and he did a hell of a job.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] Like, he was brilliant.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:19] He was brilliant. I loved him. And, you know, and I think it was the first time I really paid attention to a prophet. I didn't really. He was such a force. And, yeah, I remember him appearing on Larry King Live, and he always just spoke about love. Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it positive? And 60 minutes. 60 minutes actually came to my ward.

Mindy Caldwell [01:22:38] Mike Wallace.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:39] Mike Wallace came to my ward. I sang, you know, they prepared the young woman to sing when Mike Wallace showed up at our ward.

John Dehlin [01:22:44] That's epic.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:45] For 60 minutes. They ended up cutting as I wasn't in, you know, but, you know, they had our ward, you know, walking around for 60 minutes. And so everyone was, like, excited. They're coming to our ward. 60 Minutes. Mike Wallace.

John Dehlin [01:22:59] But these are the interviews where Hinckley is being asked on international television. What do Mormons think about polygamy? What about this Joseph Smith guy? What do you think about gay people like Hinkley? What do you think about this belief that. That men could become God someday? Like, the heat was coming at the Mormon Church by the early to mid-90s. And. And whether it's Mike Wallace or Gordon B. Hinckley or, Sorry, Mark Wallace or Larry King, Hinckley was getting the heat and he was taking the heat, and he was. He was making Mormons look super good.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:32] He was. And I loved him. And he made me feel good about being Mormon. Like, I remember thinking, like, this is what it's all about. Loving one another and, you know, just love. It's like, we're good. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:23:42] And his.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:42] His son was our stake president, you know? Huh. And I knew. I knew, you know, his grandkids, like, it just. It just felt. I remember it feeling good. I remember being a proud LDS teenager.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:58] Because of President Hinckley. When I heard him speak, and I'm saying, isn't it wonderful? They're not great. And I just remember, like, I haven't gone back and dissected what he said. I'm not. I'm not the Mormon stories expert. I just remember what I feel and what I thought I heard. But I remember a feeling of him just saying, like, it's just about loving one another. Just be kind. Just be good people. Like, just. That's what I felt from that era.

John Dehlin [01:24:27] Yeah. Like, when he's asked the question around, like, is the Mormon Church the one and only true church? He'd say something like, you know, all we say is, you know, check us out and maybe we can add a little bit to your life.

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:38] I know.

Lauren Matthias [01:24:39] I'm like, I Love it. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] Right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:41] Yeah. My memory of that interview is somebody said, are you, are you really gonna tell us that God came to a 14 year old boy, you know, and, and there is a magic book buried in the ground. I, I'm slaughtering it. But this, my memory is that they're kind of asking him, in my opinion, kind of an incredulous stance, like, you really believe that this, this happened? And he just smiles and said, isn't it great?

Mindy Caldwell [01:25:09] And I think there's, there's, there's a part of, I think most Mormons, if they, if they are honest with themselves from an early age, you feel peculiar. You know, we're taught that we're a peculiar people. And, and even if you're surrounded by Mormons, there's, there's things that you're just like, oh, that's a little weird and stuff. So I think having like our prophet do very public, you know, interview or series of interviews and just be out there, I just had such pride and it made me feel less weird, you know, like he's like more mainstream. It's making Mormonism look like a little more cool. And so, yeah, yeah, he was, he was a lovable guy. That was my interpretation of that time.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So, yeah, he made me happy to be LDS and just, I, so I think you, yeah, so I think he was really a big influence in my teenager years of just feeling good, you know, and, and you know, I wasn't like, I love the church. I didn't graduate seminary. I didn't go to, I hated seminary. I didn't go, you know, and there weren't, I wasn't rigid in all these. I did get my like, young women's medallions. I did what I wanted to do. And I think that that's, that's kind of President Hinckley's mentality. Like, just, isn't it wonderful? You can just do what you do, you know?

John Dehlin [01:26:32] Yeah. All right. So I'm dying to know kind of if there was a kind of a dating aspect to your high school experience or not.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:42] Yeah, probably more of the. Or not. I was very friendly. Actually had a lot of guy friends because again, you know, I grew up with four brothers. There are many boys in the ward. They were my friends. But I was the girl that actually the boys would call to talk about my friends with. But I, I, you know, I didn't date. I don't think boys really liked me that way, but I don't know if I even had the self esteem to allow them to like me that way either.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:15] I. There, like there was a lot of self hate. Like I, I actually have, you know, I was a journal writer, but I have letters to myself saying like, you are so ugly. Like people talk about you and they just say, Lauren is so unattractive, she should just lose weight. Like it was very. It was pretty extreme as a teenager and young adult. Like this self loathing. So boys, I don't think genuinely, genuinely really liked me in high school, but even if they did, I don't think I could have allowed it because I just couldn't imagine one liking me either.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:55] So I was just not wanted in, in maybe their brain and my own. So. But, but I was curious. Like I wanted, I wanted a first kiss. You know, I remember wanting that and all my friends had had that and. But then my first kiss was, was awful. I don't, I don't know his name. My friend, I had many beautiful friends. They were always dating. And she was dating a boy from a different school. She said, come with me to meet him. And I came and he met with a friend and then they went off, which I think to go kiss. And so the friend kissed me and I was like pushing him off of me.

Lauren Matthias [01:28:38] Like he was actually. It was very aggressive and I like, I hated it. So like, I also was like, what is this? Like, I, I just. There was. Yeah, I mean, and then there was a later kiss in high school that was better. But. But other than that, really. Yeah. No dating.

Modesty Messages and Young Womanhood

John Dehlin [01:28:57] We cover a lot on Mormon stories about modesty messages to young Mormon women. Was that a relevant part of your high school years?

Lauren Matthias [01:29:09] Very much so. I was taught, just like many LDS women, that we have to control men's thoughts. That that's why it's. We're modest. And being a sister to four brothers, I think I even like, they were taught that too. Like I, I saw like they. Anyway, but. But yeah, I was taught that we help them by. It's a selfless thing we do. We help them by dressing modestly. But it was very, very confusing because here girls are. It made me so angry again. It was like the girls that got the attention were those that were cute and wore tank tops and were, you know, pretty and I wanted to be that. And at the same time I resented it and was told not to do that. I did wear tank tops. That wasn't a thing.

John Dehlin [01:30:10] But like, if you dress cute or the way you want to, then you feel guilty and then if you don't, then you're, then you're not Dressing the way that feels good. So you lose. You kind of lose either way, right?

Lauren Matthias [01:30:22] Yeah, it's a lose, lose. It's a double bind, a lose lose. And so I do remember, though, one day putting on some shorts, just regular shorter shorts and a tighter tank top, or not. I think it was a tighter T shirt even. And looking at myself in the mirror and actually liking what I saw, like, oh, I look cute. Oh, my legs are actually pretty thin. Who knew?

Lauren Matthias [01:30:48] And feeling cute and walking out and my mother seeing me and thinking, oh, no, that, that is too tight. Oh, my goodness. And I think what she was saying is, oh, she's not a little girl anymore. Like, oh, my goodness. Like, just sort of startled. She was on the phone actually. She's like, oh, oh, dear. Oh, my. You know, but like, yeah, like, I finally start to feel cute and then I'm like, shocking people. So, you know, it's. What do you do? Yeah, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Lauren Matthias [01:31:20] So that was also really confusing to me. And then I remember, I. Yeah, I. Like I said I went from a little girl to a woman, so I had a larger chest in high school. And I. There it was senior year, and it was a dance. You know, you get those dance photos before cell phones.

John Dehlin [01:31:41] Sadie Hawkins.

Lauren Matthias [01:31:42] Sadie Hawkins dance.

John Dehlin [01:31:43] Now, is that ladies choice?

Lauren Matthias [01:31:45] It was ladies choice, but it was actually a class officer photo. This was a class officer photo. So. And so I was a class officer senior year, and I had a T shirt on that said Gap on it. And we all posed and I. I put my hand on my hip and actually did duck face before duck face was a thing. Like, I didn't even know. Maybe I started duck face, you know, the kissy. You know, the kissy lips. And when it came back, you know, it doesn't develop for a while, it looked like I was sticking, like, my chest out because it was a tighter shirt.

Lauren Matthias [01:32:25] And the ward boys that I was friends with told me, they're like, yeah, everybody's talking. They think that you purposely. You were posing like that to stick your chest out. And I was mortified because, like, I did not want anyone to notice me. Like, again, so damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Lauren Matthias [01:32:45] And I did not want that at all. And it was so embarrassing to me to think that people were talking about a way I had posed, thinking I did on purpose.

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:55] And secretly they love the photo. They love seeing you in your Gap T shirt. And that's why the mixed messaging is just so harmful, because for them to, like, point it out to you, it reveals about themselves. They're like, oh, I noticed that Lauren is a human woman, young woman, and has breasts. And it's just so odd that they would shame you for that or say that you're doing it on purpose. I just think it says a lot about them as well. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:20] So, but you know, I, yeah, I think to this day I actually just feel more comfortable in like covering up. I often wear sports bras. I just, it's hard. I actually recently even wore like a lower cut dress to a foundation dinner that like my husband wasn't even coming to. I tried it on for him before and he's like, wear that, you look beautiful. And like I wore. And like, so still today, just, you know, like, I just don't love, I just, yeah, so I'm sure it comes from that.

John Dehlin [01:33:51] The grooves run deep.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:54] Yeah, yeah. So, so, yeah, so then I, I, I graduated and I, I went to college at the University of Utah. I was wishy washy. I think I was very afraid of what I was going to do with my future. I think I felt the pressure actually of my patriarchal blessing, like, make your life rich and fulfilling in the meantime. Like, what does that mean? Like, in the end, I don't know if I can have a career and I want to have the Mormon fairy tale. Like it was very clearly I wanted the Mormon fairy tale. I wrote my future out when I was like nine and it consisted of like four kids and it was, you know, and we had a wishing well and it was, we were gonna return missionary.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:44] Husband, return missionary. I don't know if it was a return missionary, but he was LDS and he was an attorney. It was not a return missionary, but an attorney. Temple marriage probably. I don't think I wrote that in on this thing, but, you know, I had the layout of the house. You know, there was a room for the pets and we served at the homeless shelter. That was the thing. We served at the homeless shelter and we had four kids and they were good at sports and I just, you know, I wanted, I wanted to be a mother. Very much so. But there was this pressure of make your life rich and fulfilling.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:15] And I don't think I knew how to do that or what that meant. And I also thought, well, men don't like successful women. So, you know, I don't want to intimidate a man. So I think I just went slowly through college because I was almost afraid of graduating and becoming a full fledged adult that had to work 9 to 5 and so, but I Started college, and, you know, I did a few things. I actually. I studied abroad in Israel. I did an internship in Washington, dc.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:47] I went to Australia for one semester with a friend. And I remember thinking all the time in the back of my mind, should I go on a mission? Should I go on a mission? And I wanted to go on a mission purely because it was what my older brothers had done. And when I was going on a mission, women weren't necessarily encouraged to go. We went when we were 21. I was over the age of 21 now.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:08] But I just. I wanted to experience it. I wanted to know what it was like to serve for a year and a half. But I also didn't want to go to the temple, which you would have to do before you served a mission. And I didn't want to miss out. I guess I was having fomo. Like, I just. I just didn't know if I wanted to spend 18 months away from home.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:27] So I was really uncertain. Nobody was forcing me to go. My dad said, don't go. He's like, you don't need to go on a mission. But it did not leave me. And so I remember, like, I kept sort of escaping so I could. I could say all those things I was doing. There were sort of, like, these little escapes. Like, I just didn't know what to do. And I just was kind of prolonging college graduation.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:51] And I remember my friend that I was living with in Australia, she said, you know what? I. I like this boy. I'm gonna go home and get married, but, like, you should go on a mission, like. And I said, okay, I'll go.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:06] And so I was 22 when I went to my bishop, and I said, you know, I think I want to go on a mission. And my bishop was actually Elder Kevin Pearson at that time. He's a general authority now. And he was very surprised and happy. So nobody was like, you should go. Like, nobody was pressuring me.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] He said.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:28] I was surprised. I remember he said, oh, you know, I. I didn't know that. I just thought you. Maybe you'd want to come talk to me about something else, and that's wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] He was expecting you to confess sin?

Lauren Matthias [01:37:43] I guess so. Which I had never done. Yeah. I just remember him being, like, so happy. And so I started the process of filling out the paperwork. I remember I filled out my. I was so hesitant to go. I just. I felt like I should, and I really also didn't want to. It was weird, and it was all on my own. I just. It was like, my internal. Like, should I. Should I not? Nobody was making me go. Nobody was expecting me to go, but I was like, I just think I should go. You know, I also. I would do. Ignorance is bliss. I need to go.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:19] I need to understand this. I need to. I should. You know, I'll have to go to the temple. It's okay. Let's figure this out. Grow up a little bit. So I remember just thinking, well, I'll learn a language. I'll go to a different country. And so I remember, like, highlighting Australia and Korea and all these things on my mission, hoping that I would go somewhere extravagant and learn a language. And I just kept telling people, I don't care where I go, as long as it's not Ohio. I don't know why I said Ohio. I just. I think it sounded like Idaho, but it was, like, a little bit more not Idaho.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:52] So I said, I don't care where I go, as long as it's not Ohio. Like, if I go to New York or Maryland, fine. But not Ohio. I don't know. I had never been to Ohio. Is it a flyover state? I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:39:01] Midwest.

Lauren Matthias [01:39:02] Midwest.

Deciding to Serve a Mission

John Dehlin [01:39:03] You want. You want coast, right? Coastal, east coast, west coast, International?

Mindy Caldwell [01:39:07] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:39:07] So I. I. As I was going. So before I submitted my papers. This is an interesting story. I want to tell the story about Elder Kevin Pearson. So I had, you know, you have to have a few interviews before you go on the mission. And so I don't know if this is my second or third or whatever. It was like I was submitting the papers. It was the last one.

Lauren Matthias [01:39:32] And so he asks me all of the questions to make sure I'm worthy to go on the mission. I don't know what they all are, you might remember, but one of them is, do you keep the Law of Chastity?

Lauren Matthias [01:39:45] And I said, yes. And he just stopped. And he looked at me and he said, lauren, he goes, by the way, if any bishop or stake president or leader ever asks you another question about the law of chastity beyond what I just asked you, he shouldn't do that.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] Wow.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:04] And I go, okay. And then he goes, I don't know why I just told you that, but I just want you to know I said, thanks. Wow. And, you know, I know he. He's. You know, he's. He's rising up there in leadership, and, you know, people have good and bad things to say about him, but I'll. I'm grateful that he said that to me. And I think it says two things. I Think it means that he knows there's issues.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:32] Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:33] Like, he knows that there are leaders out there that might push limits, asking

John Dehlin [01:40:40] creepy, detailed sexual questions to young or, you know, youthful girls.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:45] Or boys.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:45] Yeah. But I felt it was a moment of somehow really caring and wanting to tell me that.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] That's super nice.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:52] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:54] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:55] Around what year is this?

Lauren Matthias [01:40:58] Early 2000. 2002. Ish.

John Dehlin [01:41:03] Okay. Can I ask you a quick question about that? I think that's the year Elizabeth Smart was abducted. And I ask you that for two reasons. One is you're a true crime person, and the second is she was living in your stake, if not in your ward.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:19] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:41:20] Did that story hit your radar at all? And if so, did it influence your true crime development?

Lauren Matthias [01:41:29] She was taken the day I got my mission call. So it was. It's a very, very profound memory. So I was obviously older than Elizabeth. I did not know her personally, but, yeah, she was in our stake. She was.

John Dehlin [01:41:44] Which. Which for Mormons. Never Mormons. That's your neighborhood in Utah, like.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:48] And a couple streets down, right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:41:50] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:50] And this stake is very tight knit. It's You. You talked about it already. It's. We go to the same building. We overlap. Like, we are all close. I know your cousin. Wow. Like, this is a very sort of united stake.

John Dehlin [01:42:03] So the Smart home is a couple streets down from your street.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:06] In your neighborhood.

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:07] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:07] And we all knew right away in that morning. And I wasn't supposed to get my mission call this day either. It came a week early. So it was just shocking. It was absolutely shocking. We all knew that morning. I mean, news spread like wildfire. It was so shocking and heartbreaking, and it was like my worst fear as a kid became another little girl's fear in my neighborhood.

John Dehlin [01:42:34] Reality.

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:35] Reality.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:35] Yeah. It became her reality.

John Dehlin [01:42:37] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:37] And I was like, what in the world? And nobody knew. And I remember. Well, first I got my call, but, like. Yeah, while I waited, I remember, like, babysitting for free while everybody searched. And, like, all of us were doing whatever we could, but on the day she went missing, it was this really. Yeah, it was. It was so shocking to all of us. And, yeah, my worst fear was this little girl's reality. And I remember thinking, like, where is she? Is she gonna be okay?

Lauren Matthias [01:43:08] We were all preparing to go to a prayer meeting at our ward. We were all gathering to pray for Elizabeth, not believing that this happened. And I learned that my mission call had arrived. It wasn't supposed to have come that week. It came a week early.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:27] And my Parents told me, by the way, you've got a mission call waiting on the table. So I was going to go meet my family at the ward. I wasn't home, but I decided to run home first. And I looked at it at the table, and everyone was getting ready, and I just grabbed it. I said, I'll meet you at the ward. And I ran up to my room, my bedroom, to open it alone really quickly, because there was going to be no opening party. Like, that just felt inappropriate.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:59] It was so sad. So I grabbed it. And things that don't, don't age well. I turned on an R. Kelly song. But nonetheless, I opened it, and I read, you have been called to serve in the Cleveland, Ohio Mission. And I actually thought it was a joke. I thought, this is a joke. I'd heard of this. Everybody knew. I didn't want to go anywhere but Ohio. This is a joke.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:25] It came a week early. Someone. Someone sent me a fake call. And I looked. I'm like, this is real. And I remember just in that moment, and I had to hurry because everyone was already at the ward. I remember just thinking, like, I don't want to go. I'm not going. Like, this is. Oh, my gosh, no way. Like, this is a joke. And I threw it, and I ran down the stairs because I had to get to the ward. And I sat right next to my mom in the pew, and she said, did you open it? And I said, I did. And she said, are you okay?

Mission Experiences in Ohio

Lauren Matthias [01:44:57] And I looked and I saw where I was and what we were doing and how I was safe and blessed. And I said, yes, I am so happy. And that was it. And that was that moment. Like, it was just.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:15] I'm supposed to go. And then I. I just chalked it up as a humbling learning moment that I needed to accept. But I want to tell Ohio that I actually loved my mission. And I loved. And I mean this sincerely, so serving stateside, because I actually don't know if I would have been great at learning a language. And it allowed me.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:41] And I'm jumping ahead because there's some mission preparation, but it allowed me to, like, just focus on the people and myself and some doctrine that I wanted to understand rather than struggling with language. So I. I also am a believer that we need to understand more about what's going on in our own country sometimes than we need to understand what's going on in the world. I shouldn't say that, but I think that it allowed me to open up my eyes to some things going on in my. In my homeland, you know, that I needed to understand the people and the world a little bit better by understanding my own country. Yeah, More. But I loved Ohio.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] Well, you know, never. Mormons will be interested to know that the Cleveland, Ohio, area and the mission that it covers is sort of a central geographical location for some really important Mormon history, because it's one of the areas where the early church settled, you know, very.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:44] And so when I had opened my call and saw Cleveland, Ohio, I didn't understand that quite yet because I guess that sisters that get called to the visitors center in Kirtland, Ohio, got a different call. I was pure proselyte, and this is when they divided it. And then.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:00] So I. Mine didn't say Kirtland, so I didn't know that someone had to teach me. That's the Kirtland, Ohio mission, which is a very, as you point out, big deal. The irony to that, though, too, is right before I got my call, the Internet was in full force.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:18] And my friend and I, the one I was in Australia with, we. We hated polygamy. We. We loathed the idea of polygamy, and we started Googling polygamy. I remember. I remember being on the phone with her. Like, you know, these. We were both on a phone. I don't know, it might have been our new cell phone. Cell phones were a thing. The Internet was a thing, and we were Googling. She was at her home, I was at mine, and we were Googling polygamy together. Just like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. So what is it? What is it? And learning that Joseph Smith was a polygamist at that moment and that I hadn't been taught that in church.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:53] Like, it had always been taught that Brigham Young was the polygamist. And, you know, going across the plain to, oh, Joseph Smith is a polygamist. What? And I was preparing to go on a mission. I hadn't received my call yet, and she had said to me, lauren, I'm going to get married. But, like, you got to go on a mission. Figure this out for us. Like, what. What is this? I said, I know, dude, right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:48:15] Return and report. No pressure.

John Dehlin [01:48:17] No pressure.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:18] Yeah. Return and report. Figure this out for us. I was like, I got you. I. I got you. And so it was so interesting to realize I got my call where polygamy started. Yeah, like this. I mean, this is. This was so interesting. So I literally get a call the place polygamy began. And this is a big part of sort of some faith journey for me. I was like, no way. And when you show up on the mission, the first thing you do is you go to the School of the Prophets and you dedicate your mission where Joseph Smith taught the word of wisdom and all this stuff.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:54] And they take you through Kirtland, and you learn about your ancestors that are there, and. And then you learn, you know, that you're not allowed to track in Kirtland. You know, I never actually served in Kirtland because of all the tension. And it was the most interesting mission

John Dehlin [01:49:10] for me, though, just to give a tiny bit of detail, it was in Kirtland, Ohio, that Joseph Smith had sex with domestic help. So basically, there was a teenage girl who was working for him in the home as kind of a domestic help. Her name is Fanny Algeria. And what history now tells us is that he basically had an affair with her while she was in the home. And later it's been characterized as his first polygamous marriage. But at the time, it was just understood to be an affair by everyone, including Oliver Cowdery, Joseph's assistant. And so this is. All. This all took place in Kirtland, Ohio, which is where you were.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:58] Called to. So I just wanted to give a tiny bit of. This is the land of Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:03] Right, Right. This is Kirtland. Right.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:06] Yeah. So to go back, actually, before my mission, as I'm preparing to go on my mission, I have to go to the temple. It was the thing I was avoiding. I did not want to go to the temple. I had no desire to go to the temple. In fact, I felt it was a sacrifice I was doing. I wanted to go on a mission. I didn't want to go on a temp to the temple, but I had to do the temple.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:26] I didn't want to wear garments I didn't want. You know, I just didn't want to go. So I didn't go until the week before. I entered the mission training center in Provo, and I took temple prep classes from a wonderful couple in my ward. They were great.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:46] They sort of said, it's great. You know, it's just. Is what it is. And they're wonderful. And I. I went to the Salt Lake Temple, and I actually liked Washington Anointings. I thought it was, like, actually really lovely and.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:00] Or, like, sweet. I. Look, I. I don't know the history of it or whatever, but. And I know a lot of, you know, it was. Whatever it was that day, I remember thinking, like, the blessing was sweet. Like, it was like, oh, that's Kind of pretty, but that was about it. I. Oh. Like, my mom was like, do you want me to get you a temple dress before you go? Do you want me to get you temple clothes? I actually said, no. Like, the. The dresses are ugly. I. I don't want to do my laundry. I don't want this stuff. Like, I'll rent. Like, we're good.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:26] Like, no. And I. And I waited. Like, I said, it was three days before I entered the mtc, just in case. I think there's a. If I change my mind on my mission, like, I won't have gone to the temple.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:39] And so I went. It was like a miserable kind of a day. I was actually on my period. The last thing I want to be wearing is white. But I go. I sort of. I think of him just, like, a little distant. I have a migraine. I remember my older brother taking me up to the circle, and I remember appreciating that because he was trying the prayer circle, because I think he was just trying to say, hey, I'll take you and I'll help you.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:05] It was a. It was a kind gesture. I still see that as a kind gesture today. But I. Yeah, I did not like the temple.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:13] And can I ask you a question about that, Lauren? Yeah. I think so much of, you know, our practices in Mormonism sometimes are, like, modeled by our family or our parents or something. Did your. Were your parents, like, temple attending or did they. You know, some families are just so much about the temple, they plan their family vacations around going to see temples. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:34] Yeah, so that probably makes sense. Yeah. Temple wasn't, like a huge.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:38] Wasn't a big thing thing in our house. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:41] And they were very big on serving in other ways. Like, we were very active, but yet the temple wasn't a big thing for my parents.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:48] I'm not surprised, based on what you've told us, you know, kind of about your upbringing, but. Yeah, I just find that interesting.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:54] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:54] That you had kind of an aversion to it even before you went.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:59] Yeah, that's true. That makes sense. And I've actually never even thought about that, but. Yeah, no, they didn't go a ton. Like, that wasn't. Yeah. A thing. I remember. I don't ever remember my parents, like, going to the temple. I'm sure they did, but I don't remember that at all. Yeah, so.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:13] So you waited until three days before, and you did the washing and anointings. Your brother took you to the prayer circle. Do you have other memories of that day?

John Dehlin [01:53:20] Just so you didn't love it?

Lauren Matthias [01:53:21] Just that I didn't love it. I think I've even just blocked a bit of it out. Yeah, but I remember the garments. It was the garments that I really didn't want to wear. And so I do remember walking more than the temple. I remember the aftermath. Walking into my house, walking in my bedroom, taking off my clothes and looking at myself in garments in the full length. In my full length mirror.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:51] And I just started crying and I like walked out into the hallway, just in my garments into my parents bedroom where I knew my mom was sitting. She was working in there. And I looked at her and I just burst into tears and I fell on her. It was very dramatic, but I fell on her bedroom floor in the fetal position and just started crying. And I said, I hate these.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:15] And she was really sweet. She was really sweet. And she's like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry. I know you'll get used to them and maybe we can, I can help you. She wasn't, she didn't shame me or anything, but I just remember that moment. Yeah, it was probably very dramatic, but that's how I felt. And when I went to the mtc, I told my MTC companions, I don't like the temple, I don't want to go. I had to go once in the mtc and they were really sweet. They're like, well, we'll stay with you and it's okay. And then I didn't have to go on my mission because there was no temple except for the Kirtland Temple, which belonged to the community of Christ.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:51] In fact, I actually, my heart sunk a little bit that when they sold it to us, I actually really loved that it was that it belonged to the community of Christ, but I didn't have to go on my mission. So I've just never really gone to the temple much. There you go. That's it. I've just. I'm not a temple goer. Never have been.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:08] And yeah, and I stopped wearing my garments, I think a couple years after my mission. So just, I just decided they weren't for me anyway. So I get on my mission and one thing I loved about my mission again is it allowed me to really learn and study all of this deeper doctrine that I had no idea about the church.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:34] For me, the church was simply, God loves us, we'll be together forever. You know, I knew the basics of the kingdoms, but I really got to delve into the deep doctrine. I got to learn a lot. I read the doctrine and Covenants multiple times.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:51] I love the Old Testament. That's my book. I actually didn't read the Book of Mormon very much in my mission. I'm not a big Book of Mormon reader. And I. One interesting thing, though, was there were Community of Christ members, that's the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ already Saints, people that wanted to learn. There were Community of Christ members that wanted to learn. There were Rigdonites.

Lauren Matthias [01:56:14] So oftentimes we were teaching about Brigham Young and not Joseph Smith. There was a wide range of Mormonism, and there was one couple that we were teaching who were Community of Christ members. But, well, they were actually reorganized Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints members and disliked how the Community of Christ had given women the priesthood because they wanted everything to be just like Joseph Smith. They wanted everything to be pure Joseph Smith.

Lauren Matthias [01:56:47] And so they got into the fact that they also. They really were interested in getting baptized and we were teaching them and it was going really well. And they also got into the fact that they were upset that the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter Day Saints was saying that Joseph Smith was a polygamist because they did not believe Joseph Smith was a polygamist. They believed that it started with Brigham Young.

Lauren Matthias [01:57:08] And I thought, I mean, here I am, full circle. I'm like, oh, here come my Google search results. And so we said, well, you know, we really do think he was, according to some history books. So what did I do? So we. So we left and they. We scheduled in another appointment to come back. They enjoy talking to my companion and I, and we're really trying to search. And so I said, we have to go to the church building. We have to go get into. It was a little branch. And I said it was Chardon, Ohio, and try to get the list of Joseph Smith's wives and bring it to them.

Lauren Matthias [01:57:47] Like, that's what I'm thinking. Like, that was probably like the last thing they wanted. But I'm. I'm sitting here thinking, like, I've got to do this good deed for them.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] That'll convince them.

Mindy Caldwell [01:57:56] You're going to find it in the church library.

Lauren Matthias [01:57:58] Oh, I'm an idiot.

John Dehlin [01:58:00] Local branch building.

Lauren Matthias [01:58:01] Yeah, I remember we got the keys to the wardrobe. It was late at night. The library was locked. But we knew how to break into the library. You get an extension cord from the vacuum and you remove the ceiling tile, and then you put the extension cord through the ceiling tile and you twist the doorknob. We did it. We, like, did it.

John Dehlin [01:58:19] Wow.

Lauren Matthias [01:58:20] And we. We got into the library. Well, it was all for a good cause. Like, we got into the library,

Mindy Caldwell [01:58:27] right?

Lauren Matthias [01:58:29] And we made ourselves comfortable in that branch library, and they had all of the Church of Jesus Christ letter Saints history books there. We just pulled them down and found it. We found it. We found it. We found all of his wife's. And then we made Xerox copies of it. And, like, thinking that this is going to be like, you know, here you go.

John Dehlin [01:58:51] I'm dying to know what book in the 90s lists Joseph Smith's plural wife?

Lauren Matthias [01:58:56] This was 2000. This was 2002, 2003.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] Been in sacred Loneliness. But I'm just trying to imagine.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:03] It was like the. It was the church history. It was the, like, it was like encyclopedia, all that.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] I know. But my. I. I think we all felt like that history was hidden from us as Mormons, so normally we wouldn't have found. I'm not doubting you.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] Because you found it. But I'm just saying I'm surprised because most of us reached our 20s and 30s not knowing that Joseph Smith ever had plural wives. Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:30] Yeah. Well, I think that maybe that's, like, actually why I've always been a little bit of an apologist when it comes to people saying that, you know? Yeah. I wasn't taught that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, but when I wanted to know, I found it in the church building.

John Dehlin [01:59:43] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:44] Yeah. Like, I think that I've always been like, no, it's there for people. At least it was for me and this little tiny branch in Chardon, Ohio. You just had to use an extension cord.

Mindy Caldwell [01:59:55] Get in. And you mentioned having Fawn Brody's book in your home growing up.

Early Doubts and Difficult Doctrine

Lauren Matthias [02:00:02] Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, Font Brody's book. No man knows Our history was on our bookshelf. I didn't know what it was until someone mentioned it was like, anti Mormon literature.

John Dehlin [02:00:12] And I was like, she lists Joseph Smith's plural wife.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:15] Does she? Well, that was in my. That was in my bookshelf growing up. And I said, oh, well, we. We have that book. So I'd never, like, read it, but I was like, yeah, it's in our bookshelf. And, well, you know, my dad also, you know, he bought me a Quran for one of my teenage birthdays, too. He just, you know, my dad really taught just us to be open and learn and. And be curious and interested in other world's cultures and religions. So I remember when I said to my dad, oh, Fawn Brody's book. He's like, yeah, isn't it interesting? You know, she's a scholar of church history. But yeah, I, I pulled Joseph Smith's wife from the Chardon, Ohio branch.

John Dehlin [02:00:57] That's a great story.

Mindy Caldwell [02:00:58] It is a great story. Especially the entry into the building.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:02] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:01:04] And you gave it to this couple.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:06] We gave it to this couple. Which probably wasn't what they wanted. I mean, it was a nice lesson. They were very sweet. We ended with actually playing a rendition of Spirit of God, which is a hymn that both. We understood both religions loved because it was, you know, an origin hymn.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:23] And it was a nice visit. I think we visited them a couple more times and I learned at a young age that just because we hand them a Xerox copy of all of Joseph Smith's wife doesn't mean that they're going to be like soldiers. Okay, let's do this.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:42] But yeah, I think, I think more interesting was the fact that, yeah, I was learning about polygamy and all these sort of deep doctrinal things on my mission. And. Yeah, so. So, yeah, so I think, you know, and look, and I think the way I always saw it is like, well, of course they're not teaching it in Sunday school. You know, I didn't learn in high school about Benjamin Franklin's illegitimate wives either. You know why?

Lauren Matthias [02:02:09] Probably because it's not relevant to the lesson on hope and faith. But I mean, I get it. I'm not. So I think that's just how I felt for a long time as an. Yeah. A bit of an apologist. Like, well, it's there if you want to find it. But of course we're not going to probably gather in church for worship and be like, today's lesson Fanny.

Mindy Caldwell [02:02:30] Fanny alter.

Lauren Matthias [02:02:31] Yeah, so that's. Yeah. Anyway, I'm trying to think.

John Dehlin [02:02:37] So how was your mission? Like, what type of missionary were you and how did it go overall for you?

Lauren Matthias [02:02:43] I loved my mission. Yeah, I love. To this day I can say I loved my mission. You know, it was like they took. It takes away my entire identity and past. We're all in the same clothes. We. I lose my first name. My name is just Sister Johnson. They put me with people I don't know from across the country that I would never be friends with, to live with otherwise, except that we met on our mission.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:08] I think that was good for me, for me personally, like to learn about a little bit more about self love and some of maybe my talents and gifts. Like, you know, there was so much self hatred and self doubt before and all of a sudden I learned unbeknownst to me, I didn't know that I was a really good missionary, that I really cared about people and I think I was a little bit more mature. I went when I was almost 23, I'd had some life experience.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:37] So when people would say like, you got need to go tracked? I'd be like, we're not tracking. Like, why do we want to spend time with people that don't want us around? Like, go visit a less active. Go visit someone that actually wants us to be there. Go listen to people. And people would say, you need to stop seeing them if they're not progressing. Like, that's so stupid. If someone likes our visit, we're here to serve whoever that is, you know, And I valued so much, like, let's just listen to people. Like, everyone has a story. And I found myself so interested in every person's house we visited.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:11] Like everyone had a story to share. That was actually one of my love of stories. Like everyone has a story and we need to listen to them. And, and that's a lot of what I did on my mission and cared about those that were members, but just maybe not attending and yeah, visiting people over and over that maybe people, you know, past missionaries had given up on. And I was mostly always training, so that allowed me to be in a leadership. So I was also privileged. Like I'm. I know that submissions are so hard for some people, so I also acknowledge that I was in really lucky positions to shine.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:50] Like, I was always training and. But people, I, I realized then that I did want to be a journalist. Not just because I liked writing, but because I loved people and everybody has a story to share and, and they would open up and I would listen. I also had a lot of anxiety in my mission too though, because I was idealistic and I thought I could help people and I would, would worry about them at night and I would go to bed with anxiety about how to help people. And so there was also that for me, like sort of this, like, you know, you sit there and you listen to every person. You know this John. You listen to people every day. And that's, that's gotta be hard at some point.

Mindy Caldwell [02:05:32] Like just holding, holding space, holding space

Lauren Matthias [02:05:35] for all these people. Holding space for so many people. So I also, it was also really hard for me. But I love my companions, I love my mission. I, I was asked to speak at the mission conference in front of all the mission. Like the mission president realized I was a good missionary, you know, but I, I, yeah, I didn't follow all the rules. I put people first. I Loved the New Testament. And I think it was like sort of my mission where I concluded, like, I'm here because of Christ, like, I really fell in love with Christ. I'd already done my study abroad in Israel.

Lauren Matthias [02:06:07] Like, I was a Christian first and foremost. Like, nothing. Like, you know, all that matters is that we touch people's soul for that moment and bring the love of Christ into their lives. But I also learned again that I think I was like, oh, like I do have some talents and some self worth and some value and like, I am good at this. Like, people are valuing me. The mission president's valuing me. I'm valuing myself and realizing maybe I can have a career. I think I felt empowered too. Like, maybe, maybe I can have a career. Maybe I can do this. Maybe I'm not as incapable as I think I am. And so I think I learned that on my mission.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] As so many, even ex Mormons today will say, they'll always be grateful for their mission. You know what I mean? Like, it can be a transformative experience.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:05] Yeah. And she just served for a year and a half. Like, I. I love that whenever I. I'll never have that opportunity again. I don't think, you know, I've raising a family, having to make money, like, you know, just to be able to serve. And I. And I also had parents that paid for it and were able to support it.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:24] So.

Elizabeth Smart Case and End of Mission

Mindy Caldwell [02:07:25] So timeline wise, were you already on the mission when. When Elizabeth Smart was rescued.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:32] And I actually even got a call from my family. They called me. They were like, so.

John Dehlin [02:07:36] Which they weren't supposed to do.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:37] Yeah, but they did. They were so ecstatic and thrilled and like, just. They call me like, Elizabeth Smart was found. Yeah. It was such a big deal that I got a call on my mission. I remember crying, praying, thanking God that she was found. Yeah. So. Because, yeah, I think she was missing for nine months. So.

John Dehlin [02:08:01] So you mentioned in your outline something shocking that happened on the last day of your mission. Is there anything else, any other story you want to tell about your mission?

Lauren Matthias [02:08:10] No, I think. I think I feel good about my mission. Yeah. So my parents came to Ohio to pick me up so I could show them around and teach them, introduce them to all the people that I had met.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:23] And it touched my hearts. And we. It was the very first night they picked me up from the mission home in Cleveland and took me back to a hotel in Cleveland, Ohio. And I opened up my scriptures to read them and I couldn't read them. Like my eyes were blurry.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:40] And I thought, that's so strange. I can't read. I remember thinking, what if something's really wrong? Because it was. They were so blurry. And I said that to my parents. Like, I can't read my scriptures. I remember my mom saying, well, it's probably because you didn't sleep the night before. You were just packing. I'm like, it's true.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:54] Woke up the next day, things were a little bit better. And later on the day, like, I couldn't see. I couldn't see. So I go home, the eyesight's getting worse and worse, and your dad's. My dad's legally blind. My dad's legally blind. So, I mean, yes. And I think that was part of my concern. I go and visit my friend, the one that got married, the one I was supposed to report back to.

Lauren Matthias [02:09:16] She flew me out to her new home in Kansas City. And I couldn't see my make. I couldn't see the mirror to put my makeup on. Like, it was just getting worse. So finally, Mom's like, let's go to Costco, and you can go get an eye test while I go shopping. And I actually go into Costco.

Lauren Matthias [02:09:31] And it was like a return missionary as well. He's like. I think he was a student. And he's like, oh, I just got back from mission too. Let's test your eyes. And he was like, what do you see on the wall? And, like, where. He goes straight ahead on the wall. I was like, I don't see anything. He's like, okay. Oh, well, okay. So finally he's, like, doing all these different tests. And then he said, so does anybody in your family have, like, an, like, eye issues? I was like, yeah, my dad has Stargardt's disease.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:03] And he opens a textbook and starts reading about it, and he looks at me, he goes, I hate to break it to you. I think you have Stargardt's disease. You're legally blind. And I burst into tears in Costco. I was like, okay. Well, I hadn't. Yeah. I was just like, okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:19] I go out. I wasn't gonna tell this story, but it's. It's. It's a great one. Like, he just, like, lays it out to me. I'm like, okay. And I can't see because my eyes are dilated. He's like, there's no corrective lens that's helping. You're legally blind, and no corrective lens is helping it get better. And when he removed one, I could see that the thing he was asking to look at was a giant E.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:38] So he. I find my mom, and then I burst into tears, and I tell her I have Stargardt's disease. That's the beginning. I'll jump to the end. I didn't have Stargardt's disease. He jumped the gun. But because of my dad's legal blindness, everyone just assumed that this was some Stargardt's disease mutation, and it wasn't. I was finally sent for an mri, and I had multiple sclerosis, and so my optic nerve was malfunctioning. And I also think it probably started happening the last day of my mission because of anxiety and stress. Because it's your nervous system. And so who knows how long it had been in my body, but it was a relapse at that moment.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:23] And, you know, I got on steroids and I got on medication. Yeah. And so it's. It's stable today. I have relapsed. Remission. But that actually made me think, like, I just need to stay home for a while. I. I went to. I stayed home while I finished up college at the University of Utah. And. Yeah, that's just.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:44] Yeah. I have multiple sclerosis, and I have to manage it, and I get exhausted and. But, yeah, so. But things are. Things are stable.

John Dehlin [02:11:52] I can't believe you do what you do with Ms. I just, like, blows my mind.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:57] Yeah. So. Yeah, so, you know. Yeah. So, you know, Fingers crossed, though. It just gets scarier as you get older. A bit. But I'm keeping it maintained. And, yeah, do my best and take a lot of power naps.

John Dehlin [02:12:15] It's like Ginger Rogers doing everything Fred Astaire did, but backwards with heels.

Lauren Matthias [02:12:23] So. Yeah. But. Yeah, I just remember that. And then trying to think what happens next. I. I graduated college. Oh, dating. Oh, yeah. Well, I came home not dating. Yeah, I came home and, you know, I. I mean, maybe you guys help me figure this out. I. I've thought a lot about it, actually, since I've gotten older, but I just felt that men didn't like me. Maybe it was Mormon men in general. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:12:50] You wrote something about men. You said men don't like successful women. I. My impression is that's particularly true in Mormon culture, that a Mormon man does not want an educated, ambitious wife. Am I wrong?

Lauren Matthias [02:13:05] No, you're not me.

John Dehlin [02:13:06] But that's.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:07] You're true. But, I mean, at this moment, I don't even know how successful I was. Right. I was graduated. I hadn't graduated college yet. I was kind of floundering, but I Think also, like, I was kind of loud and outspoken and maybe not the most. I don't. I don't know, like, the first.

John Dehlin [02:13:23] Or assertive.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:25] Assertive. Assertive. The first guy that asked me out after my mission was actually someone that wasn't lds, Ironically enough. It was a young, single adult Fireside. And he was the speaker. They had gotten him in. He was an inspirational speaker. He was someone in the community that was kind of a big deal and had an inspirational speech to give. And he asked for my number and I went out with him, which didn't end well. It was just one date. But, yeah, lds. I just. I did not date a lot. Even right after my mission, Like, I still hadn't even had a boyfriend. So then.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:08] And then I decided after I got home from my mission, though, I was a little bit more motivated to graduate college and I wanted to graduate in journalism. And I had this idea again for my mission, like, I am going to be a broadcast journalist. I'm going to be a broadcast journalist. I graduate late from college. I think I was 26.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:26] And then I'm torn because again, I have this. I need to date. I want to date. I want to get married. I'm 26 now. Like, now I'm thinking, if I've never even had, like, a boyfriend, like, how am I gonna ever. Like, I'm gonna be, like, 35 by the time I even, like, meet someone that wants to get married. And.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:45] And so where do I want to start my career? Now I have to get into a career. Do I really want to go to a small town where I'd have to start broadcast journalism, a teeny tiny town when I'm single? Or should I just go to New York City, which was my dream? I wanted to go to New York.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:59] I wasn't going to stay in Salt Lake. It was like, either small town or New York City. And so I ultimately decided, like, my brother was in New York. He's like, you can stay with us here while you look.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:11] And so I moved to New York. And I was right. When I moved to New York. So I'm at this place where I was like, okay, I've gotta, like, make life happen for me because I'm single, I'm in New York City making contacts, and I am sent an article in the Salt Lake newspaper that starts with my dad's mugshot. And I'm starting to read it.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] What year is this? Ish.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:56] 2006. I didn't think. I've actually never talked about this, so I didn't know. So I. I started to read it, and it said that he'd been charged with securities fraud. And as I'm reading it, my friend calls me from Salt Lake, and she's like, lauren, how are you? And I'm like, I'm good. How are you? Like, there was a lot of beating around the bush. Like, I knew why she was calling, but I. I hadn't even finished reading the article. I didn't know what was going on.

Post-Mission Life and Father's Legal Troubles

Lauren Matthias [02:16:30] So I was like, I'm good. She's like, well, how. How's your family? Like, good, finally. She's like, well, Lauren, I saw the article about your dad. Like, what's going on? And I didn't want her to know that I didn't know anything. Like, I had just started reading the article. So I remember just saying, like, well, everything's fine. Like, yeah, Like, I just. I. I couldn't tell her I didn't know.

Lauren Matthias [02:16:56] And so I finally. I was like, oh, you saw it? Like, I was just like, oh. So I hung up, and I finished reading. And then I called my mom. She seemed okay. She was, like, being calm. I called my brother, the one I was living with in New York, Clark and his wife.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:16] And I was just like, I've got to go home. I've got to go home and check on everyone. And Clark was like, don't go. If you go home, you're never coming back out to New York. And I'm like, I've got to go home.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:28] I've got to check on Mom. I got to. Got to figure out what's going on. And he was right. I left, and I never came back to New York. And nor did I ever move to a small town yet, because what happened next, you know? And my. My dad's story. I'm not going to tell his story. I love my dad. My dad's an incredible man.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:57] So that's his story to tell. But what happened in the aftermath to our family, to me, is what I want to tell. But that was the beginning of probably years of tumultuous, really, you know, those moments in life where everything changes. In that moment, everything changed.

Lauren Matthias [02:18:19] And, like, the first criminal trial I ever attended in full was my dad's. People don't realize that. I also feel like many things were unfair and wrong about his conviction. He was sentenced the first time only to five months.

Lauren Matthias [02:18:46] And then the federal charges came down for the same thing, which I think are ridiculous. And we went through the same thing again. And then he was. And it was later, and he was sentenced For a lot longer.

Lauren Matthias [02:19:01] And through that amount of time, I mean the things that happened like overall, like, like money became an ultimate. Like so here I was about to start my career. But we were also like as a family, like debt that I didn't expect all of a sudden came on me too.

Lauren Matthias [02:19:24] Along with student loans, the house. My mother had a, like a mental breakdown. She's never been the same since. I had to actually move in with her for a little bit into a teeny tiny apartment and I lived there because there were self harm concerns and so I like stayed with her.

Lauren Matthias [02:19:44] Our house had to be cleared out because we thought we were going to be losing it. I remember actually being in there alone in this empty house with nowhere to go, just like crying, like, where do I go?

Lauren Matthias [02:19:55] The siblings sort of all floundered and like we were all just like fending for ourselves. I remember so many people came to help. But you learned who your friends were too. Like you learn the negative parts of humanity too. Where people judge you, like the people you didn't know. You're like, oh really? And then where other people are very warm and kind of and wanting to help during a tragedy where others, you know, want to not associate with you.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:30] My dad was never excommunicated. The word always continued to visit him and care for him for the most part. And my mother again has never been the same since. Like I don't even know where. Like, I like to like give it in chronological order would be pointless.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:48] But everything happened in years and years from losing our home. I at one point was sleeping on a mat in my friend's basement. Very grateful for them, you know, I, I, I finally started getting asked out immediately after my dad went to prison. I had a friend say to me, I wish my dad would go to prison. Maybe I'd start getting asked out. She actually said that to me.

Mindy Caldwell [02:21:14] Do you feel like there was a connection?

Lauren Matthias [02:21:16] I think there was.

Mindy Caldwell [02:21:16] Really.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] What was that about?

Lauren Matthias [02:21:19] I'm hoping you guys can tell me. Like, I, I've definitely thought like I was vulnerable. I was, I was helpless.

John Dehlin [02:21:25] When my, when I got excommunicated, young boys from my daughter's high school started hitting on her because they thought she'd be easy.

Lauren Matthias [02:21:37] Yeah, I feel like I had like, I would have like Mormon boys, by the way. Yeah, I went from like never dating to having like two dates a day. Like, like ev, like I was getting asked out so much and I hadn't changed.

Mindy Caldwell [02:21:50] It was, yeah, how are you meeting these people? Were you going to like young, single Adult wards or were there apps?

Lauren Matthias [02:21:58] No, I was social, right? Yeah, I was social. You know, I was. That was like I'm an extrovert and so I was a social young adult. And again, like even though I wasn't necessarily very flirtatious because like I said, I have brothers. I know, I know how to be friends. Like I was friends with the elders on my mission. Like I do know how to like be friends with guys and girls and I'm warm and I'm friendly and so we just, I'd go to social functions. But like, or like even guys from the past too. Or like people. It was like it was night and day. Like like all of a sudden, wow, I'm like getting asked out so much.

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:36] That's really interesting.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:38] Yeah. And I'm staying in Salt Lake now and I get a job at a non profit organization. So neither the journalism or the New York City plan, but I just need to pay off debt and survive, you know. And you know, I was accepting a lot of the dates too. Like this is true. Like I was accepting a lot of dates too because I wouldn't buy food.

Mindy Caldwell [02:23:01] I was going to say, you're going to get fed.

Lauren Matthias [02:23:02] I got fed. I like when people say free meal. Like it was sincerely, I was getting fed. I would also go to social functions to eat. Like there's a barbecue. Like I was like, how do I get feel like I'm. I didn't want to grocery shop. Like I was trying to pay off debt and I wasn't making a law. It was like a first time job out of college at a nonprofit and I was working full time. And so yeah, I would accept a lot of the dates.

John Dehlin [02:23:28] Did you see that as a silver lining? The increase in or the emergence of. Of date invitations? Maybe desperation or you know, like no,

Lauren Matthias [02:23:39] maybe like I did want to meet a man. Like if I was going to be in Salt Lake City, I did hope to date. I don't know if it was all. And like I said, like, yeah, I think probably, but. But it came, you know, came with its. You know, there were a lot of guys. Yeah, I mean like all dating stories there's frustrations.

John Dehlin [02:24:03] So not great guys.

Mindy Caldwell [02:24:04] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:24:05] Yeah. I had my first boyfriend, you know, so yeah, so yeah. But no one I wanted to marry or no one, you know, or. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:19] So I mean, I'll just try to imagine what that might have been like for you. And I can say that Utah is all. Almost feels like a very small place. Like there's always two or three degrees of separation from any of us with each other. So if Utah's a super. If Mormonism is a really small place and Utah is an even smaller place and Salt Lake City is even a smaller place to have your dad be a. The subject of a federal news story, maybe a prisoner. I mean, that. How was that for you? Like, socially, Right?

Lauren Matthias [02:24:53] Yeah. Yeah, it was awful. Yeah. It was the talk. It was actually. I remember a particular date. This guy really liked me and I didn't like him, but he kept coming around with giant flowers and he thought that we were a thing when I wasn't into him. But I remember him saying, like, he's like, I'm telling my friends about you. And they're like, wow, how interesting you came into her life at this time, you know, to help, like, almost like to rescue me. Yeah. Which I didn't like that. Like. Like nobody needs to feel sorry for me.

John Dehlin [02:25:31] So I'm curious after your mission, but then after your dad becomes a national news story, how your Mormon faith is sort of absorbing and progressing and evolving, especially as you're living now in Utah.

Lauren Matthias [02:25:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:50] And trying to date and figure out what to do with your career.

Lauren Matthias [02:25:53] Yeah. You know, I'm clinging to it. When this sort of thing happens, your entire reality as you know, it sort of disintegrates. In fact, I think I have a lot of, I'll say this empathy for these other criminal trials that I cover. Whenever there's another family member testifying or talking about their father or the person they love or they can't.

Lauren Matthias [02:26:28] Chad Daybell's kids, a case I've covered a lot of. When they can't see what he did, I have a lot of empathy because your entire. They are clinging to what they believe their entire life was that like, this is the life they know. This is the parents they know. This is the dad they know. And if they have to. I can't even imagine my dad. It was a white collar crime. I can't imagine what you'd have to do to face that. Your dad to jump ahead to Chad Dava, like had children buried in his yard. I have a lot of empathy for children who can't see their parents crimes.

Lauren Matthias [02:27:11] And I think that I'm clinging to my faith deeply because I want my family unit and the tradition of my family to stay intact. In fact, I probably am more desperate than ever at this moment to find a man and get married in the LDS temple and get this Mormon fairy tale more than ever because my reality has just completely.

Lauren Matthias [02:27:37] Has been blown to smithereens. My. A lot of my siblings are no longer active. You know, my little brother is not going on a mission now, and I was trying to encourage him to go, and he didn't want to go. My sweet brother Jamie.

Lauren Matthias [02:27:51] And nothing. I can't control anything. But maybe, you know, I think I was actually desperate to hold on to my faith at this moment because I just wanted to control something and bring everything back to what it was. Which is what I also say when I see people after crime hits their family, wanting to just have things go back to what they were. It's never going to.

Lauren Matthias [02:28:23] So I think that's where I was. But I say that. But before I do think things were shifting and changing, and I had a different perception on my faith and religion at this point, too, which was probably also making it more difficult for me to.

Lauren Matthias [02:28:43] To find a good Mormon man today. You know, things. Things were happening. Prop 8 was happening during this time. My dad had actually. Well, you know, my dad had actually served his five months and had. Was home during Prop 8, and it was before his. The federal charges and the federal sentencing. So he was home at that moment during Prop 8. And at this point, before I jump into Prop A, like, as far as LGBTQ rights go, in high school, like, before my mission, I had gay rights postcards in. In frames in my bedroom.

John Dehlin [02:29:26] Did you know my nephew, cousin George Parkinson?

Lauren Matthias [02:29:30] George lived with us. Yeah, I love George.

John Dehlin [02:29:34] Yeah, yeah. So he was my cousin Brett's son.

Lauren Matthias [02:29:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was living with us when he passed away. I love George.

John Dehlin [02:29:45] Did. I mean, did you have a sense. Did he ever talk to you about being gay or did you have a sense?

Lauren Matthias [02:29:52] Yeah, he was my little brother Jamie's really good friend. Well, our whole. He ended up being a dear, dear family friend. And, yeah, we knew and we loved him as we loved many others that we knew were growing up and were gay.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:05] And, you know, the neighborhood I grew up in really embraced those who are gay. And, in fact, I remember seeing you at George's funeral. You didn't know me then, but I remember that was in my ward building, and I came down and we're jumping ahead now, but I remember how beautiful, Brett, your cousin's speech was. I looked around and I saw Governor Leavitt was in there.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:40] Gordon Hinckley's son was in there. You were in there. It was like everybody joined together for this precious boy, George, who died too young. And his father Brett, stood up in that chapel and said, the most important thing we need to speak about is that George was gay. And that you all accepted him. And that was actually a beautiful moment for me was George's funeral. I didn't plan to talk about this, but you just brought George up.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:12] Because we were all there to love George, and we did. And I think that was my experience with LGBTQ growing up, was we loved our gay brothers and sisters. It was confusing. It was confusing with what we were taught. But I remember that the young women's had George teach about fashion because he loved fashion, and they had him for mutual. When they teach the girls about clothing, you know, they. Yeah, I love George.

John Dehlin [02:31:42] You would have come to his shiva, right? Like the wake. I think I met you there.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:49] I think that's when we first met.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:50] Yeah. And I would say before that, like, I remember, like, my experience, like, I. Like, I wasn't necessarily a major advocate. I didn't really understand. My first experience with LGBTQ rights actually was in high school, where my high school, East High, was in national news because there was a gay club and the district was shutting down all gay clubs.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:23] And it became national news, and there was a walk out with my school. And I remember just thinking, sort of then, well, this is fun. We get, like, a period off of school. We get some class time off, and. And there's all this media. And I was just sort of more of like a spectator of it all, without a strong opinion.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:43] But then after the walkout, I went back to class and I had French. We had this wonderful French teacher. And rather than teaching a French lesson that day, she was leading a discussion with the whole class. And that was, like, the first moment I remember thinking, gosh, I should really care about this. Like, I just didn't have a strong opinion until that French class because I saw all these kids that I hadn't really conversed with before, and she was allowing this open discussion for all these children to share their thoughts on this walkout on the gay clubs.

Evolving Views on LGBT Issues and Prop 8

Lauren Matthias [02:33:19] And this. This girl was raising her hand saying, it's not fair. There needs to be a separation between church and state, and talking about it. And I remember thinking, oh, she's right. Yeah, there. There does need to be. And like, that was a moment for me to realize, like, this is. This is important.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:40] We loved our gay brothers and sisters, but, yeah, it was confusing and complicated. None of my siblings were gay. I didn't have to deal with it on that family level. But I think that I always thought that once gay marriage was legalized, gay temple marriages would be a thing. Like, that was my fantasy. I guess I just Sort of assumed that that was gonna be a thing one day. All religions and churches change, all of them. That's also why I don't have an issue with like when I see change in the church, like, and I may be a bit of an apologist there because that's what churches and religions do is change and shift.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:24] And I think that's a good thing. I celebrate that. And so I just always assumed that once society accepted gay marriage and made it legal, gay temple marriages would be happening and we would be having gay bishops and so goes the progression of life.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:46] But you know, and I, so I came back from my mission and again my dad had just come back from his, his five months behind bars and Prop 8 is happening and I, at this moment I, I was just like hopping around to different singles wards. I had my, I had my records in my home ward. And I remember being really confused. Like, why is the church backing this? Like, this is upsetting. Like, what are they, like, why are they trying? Like, I thought we, we wanted this progression. I really thought we were all like waiting for this to happen. Don't we want gay marriage to be legal?

Lauren Matthias [02:35:24] Because then everything's, everything's great. But I remember trying to process it, like probably some cognitive dissonance, like, okay, it must be this 501C3, like, okay, like we're gonna lose our non profit status. There's gotta be something like complex that I'm not understanding.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:45] So it, because, because the church I know wouldn't do this that I've decided in my brain. And my dad actually started an email thread and all of the siblings were sharing their different thoughts about it. And I, I actually, I went and dug up the email that my dad wrote because it was a very profound moment for me. Like he was listening to all of us. We were all emailing. We were in on Gmail. So again, like I'm trying to like figure it out. I think I must have written in this that like, maybe it's like we have to keep our nonprofit, like why would the church be doing this?

Lauren Matthias [02:36:21] And we're all talking and this is what my dad says to all of us. I'm just going to read it. He writes, children, thank you for your thoughts. And Lauren, that was a fan. Fascinating outline. Don't know what I said, but children, thank you for your thoughts. And Lauren, that was a fascinating outline. I am going to contribute.

Lauren Matthias [02:36:41] I oppose Prop 8 and I regret that the church has taken a public stance against it and seems to have called for the saints to actively campaign against it. First, I strongly disagree that a civil political right, as in marriage, voting, medical treatment, as in contraceptives, abortion, public education, as in creationism and prayers in schools, individual privacy in the home, who you have sex with or marry, should be shaped or curtailed in conformity around a religious doctrine. If the church asserts that gays cannot be married in the temple or by church officials, that is okay, and I accept that as the current doctrine. But that should not affect what the civil authority does.

Lauren Matthias [02:37:22] Churches have tried to control everything from women's childbearing decisions to business activity to even what sexual positions couples may adopt. Laura notes the current concern that somehow a church could be sued or put another way in some of the emails, lose their tax free status. This is incorrect. A religion can have a doctrine no matter what the law says and this is protected by the freedom of religion, expression, assembly, etc. Further, one cannot force a person, say a bishop or Baptist minister, to perform a marriage by, say an injunction, etc. The claim voiced by many Mormons is that the church must do this to protect itself, protect the doctrine, tax free status, etc.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:02] This is exaggerated. It is alarmist to get us LDS people going to protect our church. That threat is misplaced. Further, gays who want to marry want to be responsible, monogamous, to be a family. These people recognize the value of marriage and family and want to embrace it. And I think they should be able to adopt kids. God forbid an orphan be adopted by a same sex couple, married and ready to love a child and give them a home.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:28] Finally, my decision here is mostly affected by having been a father. I have watched many parents raise gay children and grapple with these issues. I have known many gay LDS youth that I cared for and saw struggle. And I realized a long time ago when you were all little, that if one of my children confronted this in their lives, I would never abandon them, could never do that. And I would work to keep them attached in some way to the church I love. I would strive to come to know and accept their companion and hope they'd find the same happiness together as my other kids.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:58] And I would work to help change the policies of my church. I cannot see a loving LDS parent doing anything else. I could write this, write on this for pages. I would like to know more about how to join with other saints and resist the passage of Prop 8 dad.

Lauren Matthias [02:39:18] And I think that was like a moment for me where like I stopped the mush in my brain, like I was doing this, like cognitive dissonance, like dance, like wait a Minute, like, trying to, like, fit this in, like some sort of strange, like, why is this happening? And my dad said that was like, yeah, you're right, and absolutely. And we had a, you know, we had a sign in our yard and I saw my dad actually in local TV out at the rallies, you know, saying vote no. And that was. I was a. I was, I was very proud of him. And I felt proud to be certain that I was right and that he was right.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:01] Like, I mean, I felt right, you know, I shouldn't. Someone's gonna disagree with me. Like, it's an opinion. My. I felt good about my. I still feel good about it. And I think that, like, clearly I was becoming more and more liberal in my thought processes and that that sort of created some differences in, in worldview and thought than with other, you know, people I was dating. Like, I had my friends and I wanted to meet a man similar to me, but it was also becoming, I think, a little bit more complex. And I remember also during this time as an LDS woman, this just made sense for me too.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:50] And it was hard for me to understand others who didn't see this way. Because for me, like, if you go back, like, one of the theologies I love about the LDS faith is Christ's plan versus Satan's plan, right? Like our origin story, even before the origin story of Joseph Smith, the. The pre existence origin story is Satan had a plan. Christ had a plan. And Christ's plan was that everyone gets to choose and be like you do. You. You get to do whatever is best. You get to be you and live and have freedom of choice. And Satan's plan was, I want to control all of these things and I want to control what you choose and how you do it so that everyone can make good choices.

Lauren Matthias [02:41:38] Like, this is, like, this is the temple. Like, this is, you know, the plan of salvation. And we chose Christ's plan as a church. And so for me, Prop 8 was the opposite of Christ's plan. Like, it's so frustrating to me because, like, what I loved about and still love about the LDS Church theology is, is this sort of metaphor of, of Christ versus Satan and that everybody deserves to live life the way that they see fit. We are not to control somebody else's choices.

Lauren Matthias [02:42:15] That is not what Christ wanted. And I think that's also why I identify so much as a Christian. Like, so. So it's so hard for me to understand oftentimes why the church chose to do that or why, you know, to me, that is our theology that we would. We would never try to stop anyone from getting married if they loved each other.

Lauren Matthias [02:42:44] I think that that was maybe my issue of the temple, too, is, like, to me. Like, to me, the temple is hell because you're only putting people together that have made all of the same choices and are the same people and have lived the same way to be there and to judge them that they can be there. I mean, everything they're wearing is white.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:17] They're often white, depending on the temple, at least, you know, in Utah. And it's like. Like, to me, heaven is so many different people in one room together just loving one another and not having these guidelines and these rules and these laws.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:42] And so I think that I was just so disappointed by Prop 8 and confused that what I thought was our theology and belief wasn't what really was.

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:02] Thank you for sharing that email from your dad. I found that really beautiful. And, you know, particularly the part where if he was ever faced with having an LGBT child, to never abandon them and to accept their partner, that was really beautiful.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:20] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:44:23] Also, I. I mean, there's two things that stick out to me. One is the contrast of your dad being convicted. What is a felon? And all the assumptions and. Or stereotypes that might come with somebody who's convicted of. Of a crime. And then, like this. Lovely. And he's Mormon, but yet he writes. And faithful. But he writes this lovely, empathetic, progressive letter of support in 2008, very early from Mormon timeline perspective, in support of the LGBT community. So that's a real stark contrast in my mind, that, I guess, in part, I'm wondering how you made sense of that. Right. But it for sure shows that your dad was clearly more complex than the stereotypes we might have of. I'll just say a convicted felon, and I don't even know if you like that term.

Lauren Matthias [02:45:31] But, yeah, a lot more complex. A lot more complex. And I'll just say another reason I want to avoid all the legalities. Not only is it his story to share, but because it's also very complex. And I think I'll always struggle with the state of Utah, actually, and their politics and what they did to him and some of the corruption in the AG's office, you know, that we don't need to get into. Yeah, but there's a lot more to it.

John Dehlin [02:46:05] And, I mean, your dad has a lot of depth and a lot of empathy and a lot of sophistication by what I'm hearing in that letter. That's all I want to say.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:15] Yeah, he is that way.

John Dehlin [02:46:16] Yeah. And then the only other thing I'm going to say, and I've made this observation a lot on Mormon stories, the people, you know, I've always, like, I've said this a million times and people have asked us about you a million times. It's like, how is Lauren still Mormon?

John Dehlin [02:46:33] You know what I mean? And it's so weird to hear you call yourself an apologist because you're not an apologist at all. But like, these days on the Internet, if you, you either hate the church or you're an apologist, you know, there's like, there's no in between sometimes for this Mormon Internet. But what I've often observed in this chair is that if you're raised in, in a harsh, strict, rigid, orthodox Mormon mindset, that blows up and you end up leaving the church.

John Dehlin [02:47:09] But if you're raised in a type of Mormon mindset that's flexible, that's globally minded, that's even liberal or progressive or nuanced, it's a type of Mormonism that can stretch to last. And weirdly, in 2025, the people who are in their 30s or 40s or 50s who have been able to stay in the church are the exact ones that were raised by your types of parents that raised you to be globally minded and to feel like you can be globally minded and still be a Mormon.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:47] Yeah, thank you for saying that. I think the other thing that happened during that time, though that also shifted a bit, was still my struggle with polygamy. And speaking of stretching, I definitely had to stretch that view. And my conclusion was essentially deciding that, you know, not only was Joseph Smith no saint, I decided polygamy was simply not from God and he was cheating on his wives. And, you know, I don't know if that means he wasn't a prophet or a fallen prophet or no prophet, but I just simply didn't believe he was the guy to really revere.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:34] And he didn't. So I, I just decided polygamy is not. Polygamy was wrong. He was cheating on his wife. He's kind of a jerk. It's probably a narcissist even. Like, those are all the things I concluded about Joseph Smith. And yeah, I actually wrote something in my journal that moment too. So I think this was like sort of like a big sort of transitional year for me.

John Dehlin [02:48:57] And I, I mean, that's also a really interesting parallel is Joseph Smith was beloved, broad minded, and he ran afoul of the law.

Lauren Matthias [02:49:10] Yeah, yeah. So anyway, yeah, so I wrote this in a 2007 journal entry. So that would be before Prop 8. I wrote, I believe in Christ and consider myself Christian because I believe in loving one another and not judging one another. I believe in faith as an action word. I think the LDS Church is full of inspiration and answers and helps us learn about a loving God, but it is not for everyone. But I choose it to worship Christ and it is the religion I choose to practice my Christianity and belief in God. So in other words, yeah, my belief in God. The LDS Church was my vehicle to worship God. That was my village, that was my community. That was my place to worship God. How, where, or what I may. Thanks, Joseph. I was chosen, right?

John Dehlin [02:50:04] Yeah. So, yeah, beautiful, powerful.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:12] So that's where I was with sorting out my personal beliefs.

John Dehlin [02:50:16] And that's not a. This is the one and only true church and all other churches are false. You know, that's not the type of Mormonism that you're carrying. You're basically doing, in my opinion, doing religion like it was meant to be. I often say that religion at its best is the salt, not the meal. And you're basically saying, this is my tribe. This is a framework for hope, it's a framework for confidence, it's a framework for structure, for morals and values, for community. But it's. It's not all the hateful, bigoted, bad bureaucratic things. Right?

Lauren Matthias [02:50:52] Exactly, Exactly. And if something else happened, too. Well, my dad was away and again, it was after his first charges and conviction that then there was more. There was additional. It was heartbreaking. And so I went back and, yeah, sat through his entire criminal trial, you know, but I was also, I think, even though I was holding on to faith. Yeah, I was once everything happened and everything happened. You know, I started drinking and I started drinking. Drinking alcohol, you know, not. Not an alcoholic, just more so like, at this point. Yeah, at this point. Yeah. Socially, at this point, does anything matter anymore? You know, just sort of. Yeah. I stopped wearing my garments. I'd stop paying tithing, you know.

John Dehlin [02:51:45] So the weird thing is Jesus drank alcohol. Joseph Smith drank alcohol. Right. Like most of the early church leaders drink alcohol.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:52] I didn't feel really guilty about it.

Mindy Caldwell [02:51:53] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:54] I was just like, yeah, yeah. But I still loved, as you say. Yeah. My faith.

John Dehlin [02:52:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Career Beginnings and Journalism Path

Mindy Caldwell [02:52:02] So career wise, what's happening at this time of your life, with your career?

Lauren Matthias [02:52:07] At this point in my life, I am realizing also just how alone I am. Like, my dad is now facing additional charges. I have paid off some debt. I'm not meeting anyone, and I'm like, looking at my life, I am nearing, I don't know, 28, 29. And I am like, what the hell am I doing with my life? I have saved no money. I have no career. Like, the job I am working at isn't a career builder.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:44] I've now dated a good amount and it's not going anywhere. And I'm. I'm sort of finally, like, panicking. I'm having this, like, what the hell am I doing? And if I'm going to be on my own in life, like, I have got to do something with my life. And so I still, like, I want this LDS fairy tale, like, I still want. And I'm even wondering, like, where am I going to find this? Like, I. I don't know. But Salt Lake's not working out, and I. And the journalism career hasn't left me. I'm like, if I am going to have a career, I want one that I love.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:19] I want one that means something to me. Like, I. I've got to do this broadcasting thing now or never. Like, if I really want this. Like, you've got to go for it because you were. And it meant again, like, moving to a small town, you know, that was always. You just have to start at the bottom. And it's really hard to get into. Once you get into it, you can't leave. It's like the Twilight Zone, but it's like, really hard to get into. And so the nearest town that would be like, a starter market is Pocatello, Idaho, where my mother is from, where my grandmother is living.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:54] And it's two and a half hours from Salt Lake City. And so I drive up there to try to meet them. Like, I want a job. Like, they're like, Pocatello is like, yeah, well, you know, get in line. Like, so does everybody graduating from byu.

Lauren Matthias [02:54:09] So I was like, I've got to do this. So I actually put on a credit card a reporting workshop, or it was a private reporting coach in Los Angeles. I flew out there, make an audition tape, and then I just start driving to Pocatello every single weekend for, like, the next seven months. Every weekend job shadowing or working for free at the NBC affiliate station until they essentially, like, give me a job. Like, I just won't go away. And so when there is finally a job open, they're like, do you want it? And I say, yes, please.

Lauren Matthias [02:54:50] And so at 29 years old, I start my broadcasting career. So it took a while, but I was like, now or never. And I'm moving to a Town that I do not want to be, you know, in East Idaho. And, yeah, gonna make a home there for the next two years.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:12] It's gonna be $19,000 a year. And I. So I. I move in with my grandmother and. And I. And I start work, and it's. It's hard, and I'm. I don't have a lot of money. I'm eating Costco free samples. My. My grandmother. My grandmother's husband, my grandpa died when he was 65. She's a very frugal widow and doesn't have a lot. I'm paying her a hundred dollars a month for rent.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:42] Yeah, I like the cost. The Costco sample lady is newbie by name. They were like, hello, they need to pay you more there. I'm like, I know, let's hand over the taquito or whatever, make the rounds and make the rounds for lunch and, you know, work in there. It was. It was a very lonely time. During that time, my dad calls me to tell me that he and my mom are getting a divorce.

Lauren Matthias [02:56:11] You know, he's very sad about it. He's like, I'm so sorry. I take time off of work to drive down and testify at his federal sentencing. I stand there and while I watch a reporter in the courtroom take notes and share why my dad is such a good man and how he taught us to do stuff for sandas and serve and, you know, why I believe that they should be lenient on him and, you know, and come back up. I'm buying all my clothes at Desert Industries and which, for those who don't

John Dehlin [02:56:51] know, that's used clothing.

Lauren Matthias [02:56:52] Goodwill.

Mindy Caldwell [02:56:53] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:56:54] Salvation Army. My news director actually calls me in her office one day and says, I'm noticing you're wearing the same clothes every day. Like, can I give you some hand me downs? And so she and her daughter gave me a lot of their hand me downs.

Lauren Matthias [02:57:10] And it was a wonderful time to learn and make mistakes and become a broadcast journalist. For two years there, I celebrated my 30th birthday. I thought I would be celebrating my 30th birthday, maybe single in New York City. And here I am celebrating it in Pocatello, Idaho, poor and broke, but working towards a career I really want. You know, I don't have family. I have no support.

Lauren Matthias [02:57:41] My mother never healed from sort of the breakdown, so she's someone we actually more so take care of. And I am very. I'm in the right place I need to be, but I am very lonely and very vulnerable. I go to the doctors for anxiety I have a fast heart rate. He's like, it's anxiety. Like, I am wondering where my life is going. Like, what am I doing?

Lauren Matthias [02:58:12] And I remember writing in my journal, I have it. Like, it's so. It's just so depressing. It's so vulnerable. But I'm like, I just wish someone would rescue me. I just want to be rescued. And I think that probably sort of lays out the next sort of tumultuous years.

Navigating a Difficult Relationship and Assault

Lauren Matthias [02:58:43] So during this time, you know, unhappy and Pocatello trying to, you know, maybe keep a foot into the Salt Lake City social scene to try to date. I am going home on my days off. Like, so I'm driving two and a half hours to Salt Lake to continue to go on dates or whatever.

Lauren Matthias [02:59:10] And there was one guy that I've been going out with a couple of times, and he was being very aggressive with boundaries. Like, not, like, seeing me again. I don't mean, like, physically, but, like, pursuing me and seeing me again and not taking no for an answer. And at the end of this day, I had, like, really concluded, like, I don't want anything.

Lauren Matthias [02:59:39] I'm done. You know? And so he drove up to the house where I was staying, and my car was parked out front to drop me off. And I'm saying, I don't want to see you again. And he was like, come on. Like, just again. And I'm like, no. And I, I, I, like, it was so frustrating. Like, I. I got out of the car, and I, I'm sure I was rude. Like, I, like, I was angry. I was angry. Like, I was angry at his pushing me. And I like him, like, you know, So I said, I, I don't. I might have said, you. I don't know what I said.

Lauren Matthias [03:00:23] I might have just said, get out of here. Like, maybe that's my brain remembering that I said that. I don't know. But I said something. Like, I was angry. Get away from me. And at that moment, he grabbed my arm and started pulling me and, like, to the point where I was scared, I started screaming. Like, he was. Like, he was pulling me back to his car, and he started pulling me, and I was screaming. So this is, like, outside.

Lauren Matthias [03:00:48] And I ran to this circle, this grassy circle, like, across the street. And he chased me, and he grabbed me and he. And he shoved me, and I fell hard. And at that moment, I think he realized what he had done, too. And I looked at him and I was like, maybe that's when I said that for. I was just like, get the hell away from me, I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:16] And. And I ran. I got up and I just started running. And he was like, lauren. And I jumped in my car, actually, because my car was there and it was closer than, like, where I could. Like, he could have kept following me. And I. I ran to my. I drove to my friends. I was freaking out. He. He actually drove all the way to my friends. I ran inside. Like, he was sort of stalking. And it was a married couple. They know who they are, and dear friends of mine. And he called him and said, did you do this? He said, yeah, I tell her I'm sorry.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:50] And he said, go away and go home. But, like, these were just some of my dating experiences was why I was like, so desperate to be rescued, you know? Like, I just think that's like a good representative of.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:07] I just. I just didn't know where my life was going. And here I was, 30 years old. And during this time too, there was a guy from Provo that I'd gone a couple of dates with that was like wanting to come up to Pocatello, like, drive three and a half hours to see me. And I kept saying, no, don't come up, don't come up. Like, please, we're good.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:30] And he would keep saying, like, no. Like, it was the same thing. It was like, really aggressive love bombing. Yes, thank you. Really aggressive love bombing. Extravagant, extravagant gifts too. Like, he was like, I just landed. I'm home from France. I want to bring you something. I was like, don't. Like, so sweet, like, to the point where you feel guilty. Like, I felt guilty, like, declining him, but he was like, please. And there was this one moment again, it was the same thing. He said, I just landed. I want to bring you a gift from France. It's three and a half hours. And I said, please don't come.

Lauren Matthias [03:03:02] I'm really tired. He's like, well, I'm going to make an executive decision. I'm coming. And so I wrote him an email and I said, I will never have feelings for you. Do not come. And at that moment, he called me upset, and he said, I'm so sad. I heard you, but can I just come up for some closure now? And at that moment, my heart, like, felt soft for him. And I was like, yeah, you can.

Lauren Matthias [03:03:30] And that was the beginning of a tumultuous three year relationship of ups and downs with this man and a lot of love bombing, a lot of push and pull, a lot of, like, when he was in, I was out. And so then I'd be Like, okay, I'll date you. And then he would leave. And I didn't know what that was like. To me as a Mormon woman, I'm looking it up as what all the. The prophets and apostles are talking about men who can't commit. So I'm just, like, thinking, like, okay, this is another man who can't commit, and he's great, and he's so in love with me when he's in love.

Lauren Matthias [03:04:10] But the moment I'm like, okay, let's do this, he runs. And. But we're long distance the entire time. And he's saying, like, you have to come to Salt Lake City to date me. Like, you have to come back to Salt Lake. Like, this is never going to work. And so there are actually mass layoffs at my station in Pocatello. It's been going on for. I've been there for two years. And they actually asked a very kind, like, do you want to stay? And I was like, no, I don't, like, save somebody else's job. It was like a kind thing. You know, I was able to get unemployment and move back to Salt Lake.

Lauren Matthias [03:04:41] And I was like, okay, I'll. I'll move back to Salt Lake now and be with him. And the moment I moved to Salt Lake, he was like, you know what? I'm out. And he moved to Arizona. And so at that moment, once again, I've left this job for a man. I don't have a broadcasting job. I'm in Salt Lake City.

Lauren Matthias [03:05:04] He's left here. I am 31. I'm like, what? Like. Or 32. I don't know. I'm like, what? What? What the hell? Like, I just keep desperately, like, wanting this, like, fairy tale. Like, I just want something. And I had been in love with him, and so I thought, I have got to move on from him. Like, I was done with him. It had been three years. I was like, I am done. It's over.

Lauren Matthias [03:05:30] And that's when I started online dating. And I was like, I've got to meet someone. And I was also looking for a broadcasting job, and I had actually was landing and interviewing with a local station in Salt Lake City while doing some online dating.

Lauren Matthias [03:05:46] And I just was landing my dream job in Salt Lake because that's what was my ultimate goal. I just wanted to be a news reporter in the city I grew up in. So I land this job. I'm landing this job with my dream station or my dream job with a local station. And I meet this guy. We meet for lunch.

Lauren Matthias [03:06:04] And, yeah, he's divorced. He has a bunch of kids. He's Mormon. He was in the bishopric. Handsome. He tells me how he was on the 40 under 40 business magazine cover and explains that he's divorced because, you know, of an emotional affair with a high school girlfriend. I'm thinking to myself, it was probably an actual affair, but I'm not judging them. And why would you. You don't need to tell me on the first date.

Lauren Matthias [03:06:31] You know, whatever. You know, you can, you know, tell me later. Happens. But I am also really desperate to just move on from this ex boyfriend, too. And so he's really rushing things and seems really interested in me, and I'm, like, really open to it, because I'm like, I just want to meet somebody else. And so this is the same week as my first week. I tell him I'm starting this job, and he's like, congratulations.

Lauren Matthias [03:07:06] He sends me a dozen roses. He comes over the next day. He's watching me on tv. He's like, you did great first week. And then it's like. I think the third day, he comes over, and I'm living in a dining room at this moment, by the way.

Lauren Matthias [03:07:30] It has French doors, and I've put up curtains, so it's like a studio. I've put up curtains, but it's like, right off the front door of a house. So, like, you know, it's where I do. It's where I sit, it's where I sleep. It's where I do everything. It's. It's my apartment.

Lauren Matthias [03:07:48] So he comes over and he comes into the dining room and shuts the door, and he starts kissing me. And then, you know, he pushes me on my bed. And I just remember, like, look, I. I ended up dating a lot in my years, and I've.

Lauren Matthias [03:08:20] I've kissed a lot of men. And I. But it was. He was. It was. It was something I never experienced before. Like, it was very aggressive. And I was trying to push him off of me, and I couldn't. And I realized what was happening, and, like, I knew it. And I was like, he's like. I said it in my mind, like, he's raping me.

Lauren Matthias [03:08:55] And all I could think is, what do I do? So what do I do when this happens? And I. It's like you say no, and you push him over and over and over again. And that's what I did. I said, no. No. I was shoving him. I was pushing him. I was shouting no. I think I said no well over 200, 300 times throughout the entire thing. I just kept repeating no. Like I just didn't stop saying no and pushing him and trying and.

Lauren Matthias [03:09:33] At the end, and it was an assault, but at the end the last thing he said is, I can't believe that you say that you are a good girl and you let me do this. And then he left. And I remember thinking it was very.

Lauren Matthias [03:09:57] I don't know, I don't know what, I don't know what I'll say. But I, I went, I went to work the next day and as I went to work the next day he started calling me and I wasn't picking up.

Lauren Matthias [03:10:18] And so he started calling me incessantly. And at the same time my ex boyfriend starts calling me and I'm not getting his calls either. And I, and I, and I can't believe that he's calling me either because like I, you know, I don't want to talk to either of them. And so like the more I don't talk to them, they're both incessantly calling. Like they're both like. And if my ex boyfriend knows, he would be so angry and not because of what he just did to me, but because of jealousy.

Lauren Matthias [03:10:56] And I don't want to talk to this guy ever again after what he just did to me. But they're both like, with my not answering, they're both incessantly calling. So I finally pick up his call, the, the guy that assaulted me and he said, are you not interested in me now? And then said something about my coworker's ass looking nice. He's like, well then, you know, maybe you can hook me up with your co worker.

Lauren Matthias [03:11:30] And then I remember I went live on TV and I, it was like the worst mess up ever in life. It was my first week and it was my worst mess up ever on live tv. You know, it was just mortifying to me. And it's my first week on this job and the guy called, you know, he text me, he's like, that was terrible. Like what? You know, and my ex boyfriend keeps calling. So I finally, you know, I leave work and my, I finally pick up my ex boyfriend's call and just get rid of him because I can't handle the guilt either of like the fact like he's calling me again, you know, we're over and like this just happened.

Lauren Matthias [03:12:12] And so he's calling me and I'm saying I can't like don't call me. I'm dating someone and he's out of the country. My ex boyfriend. So I'm like, don't call me. I'm dating someone else. And it's serious. And that like set him off.

Lauren Matthias [03:12:27] And he's like, absolutely not. Like, absolutely not. I was like, it's over. Like, please, it has been three years of this. And he's like, no, I am flying in tonight. And I'm like, like, I just want these two men to just like go away. And so he literally calls me, he goes, I just booked a flight, I'm coming in to propose to you. And I was like, don't do that.

Lauren Matthias [03:12:56] And the next morning I go to work still, my first week, they're both still calling me. And my ex boyfriend was like, I'm here, I'm picking you up at, at 7 tonight. Be ready. And the, the guy that had just raped me kept calling and I had a text him and said, I'm getting back together with my ex, you know, like, just leave me alone. And then he started like going crazy on my phone too. Like it was like crazy. And then he like, he started panicking, I think because I think he knew that I don't, you know, I don't want to know. It was just like the most overwhelming moment.

Lauren Matthias [03:13:48] So that night, Limo driver picks me up at 7am and so I throw out p.m. or am 7, sorry, 7pm thank you for correcting me. And I throw out like the other guy's flowers for the X boyfriend. And I go out for this like extravagant, like I, I don't even like extravagant night. He's controlling everything and has all these things planned. He includes my family and he, he proposes to me that night. And then the last thing like he likes like taking me to all these places. The last thing we do is arrive at this restaurant at like 10 and I have a ring on my finger and our families are there.

Lauren Matthias [03:14:39] And then I have friends, they're like, what are you doing here? And they're like, you have a ring. I'm like, I know. Like, I know. Like I just got and get like. So I went from like it was the wildest moment. I'm like, yeah, I'm. I'm engaged. And, and at that moment though, because of what had just happened with that other guy, like I just then just was like, just get married. Like, I just need to get married. Like, I just, I just need to marry this guy. And that like made this situation better. Like I was like, this is better and safer and I don't want to deal with like.

Lauren Matthias [03:15:20] So it's like all of this like accumulated to like, I think when I look back like, why I said yes. And, like, I just think there was a lot going on, and my dad was behind bars at the time. Like, there was still. So anyway, he flew away right after proposing. And I planned.

Lauren Matthias [03:15:42] I planned a wedding long distance, on my own. This is another beautiful thing about the village and the community. Like, I had no family. Like, I had no money. And my ward family, my homeward family that I grew up in, this war that we talk about, they came together to give me a wedding of my dreams. Like, They were so nice to me.

Lauren Matthias [03:16:22] Like, I had a fairy tale wedding with, like, no money. And they were also, like. Like, this is, like, something I love about Mormonism, too. Like, they were all worried about me. Like, they had heard that, like, maybe this isn't, like, the right relationship for Lauren. Like, there's something going on. And I remember it was my visiting teacher from that ward that was like, can I take you to lunch? And I picked her up, and I actually said to her, like, I don't know, like, he can be a little bit selfish. And, you know, like, he knows that I don't like the temple, but he's demanding that I, like, that we do, like, a session before we get sealed.

An Unhealthy Marriage and Finding the Courage to Leave

Lauren Matthias [03:16:58] And I. And he's upset that I would never want to do that. And she's like, that's a red flag. And so she, like, gets her husband. And they're like. They're like, lauren, like, if you cancel this wedding before you do it, like, everyone that participate in this will be okay. Like, it's okay. But I tried to break it off before, but I went forward with it, and I married him, and we got married.

Lauren Matthias [03:17:26] And that was. I won't share too much, but it was a very. What I consider a very emotionally abusive marriage for two years. And I won't share too much. Just, like, a couple of things I just want to say, too. Like, after my ward family, like, gave me the most incredible dream wedding I could have ever been given, there was a lot of shame, too. And so I didn't reach out to people. I didn't finish thank you cards. I didn't. I just kind of hit because I think shame keeps us hiding. Like, I was so ashamed that, like. Like, they gave me that kindness. And then this is the situation.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:11] And so I just kind of, like, isolated myself. And I remember, like, I had nowhere to live. I didn't have a family. And so, like, he had flown out to, like, move in somewhere in Boston, and I was gonna go out and meet him. So I, like, I had to Live at his grandmother's house for, like, a month. And again, I had quit my job once again. So, like, he didn't want me to have the career. What mattered was his career. So once again, like, I'm giving up my dreams for this fairy tale, this temple wedding. Like, I just want this. So clearly. I wanted to so desperately.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:43] I just. I want kids. I want a family. I want, like, six kids that I can feed organic meals to, and, like, you know what I mean? Like, didn't just, like, decorate the house for Christmas. It's really just what I want, you know, this happy little Mormon family. And so I remember when I finally go out to Boston to meet him, like, this one experience, like, it's my moving day to Boston, and he picks me up at the airport, and we have this romantic moment, and he takes a picture of me in front of a lighthouse, and I feel so happy. And we had just been away from each other for, like, a couple months.

Lauren Matthias [03:19:22] And so I, like, confide in him that had been really hard and that I'm so grateful to see him. And I, like, rest my hand on his shoulder, and he looks at me, and he says, lauren, you've got to learn how to stop crying.

Lauren Matthias [03:19:36] And then he looks at me and goes, you know what? I don't want you in my life here. I'm gonna take you to the airport. I'm gonna. I'm. We're done. I'm not gonna bring you to the apartment. And so he drove me.

Lauren Matthias [03:19:52] It was, like, two hours. I just sat in silence. I was like, well, if he's doing this, it's not the man I thought he was. So he. And he did. He drove me all the way to the airport, back to Boston airport, and I just sat in silence.

Lauren Matthias [03:20:06] And then we parked at the airport, and he's like, you've got to stop learning how. You got to stop. You can't cry anymore. And I was like, I have feelings. I have emotions. Like, I'm gonna cry. And then he starts crying, and he's like, I'm so sorry. Like, this is the type of stuff. I was like, no, fly me. And I didn't know where he's gonna fly me. I didn't have a home. I had no parents. I had no money. Like, I was like, am I gonna go back to his grandma's house? I was like, no. Like, fly me. Like, give me. Give me a Hawaii ticket.

Lauren Matthias [03:20:31] Just like. I was like, fly me. But he cried, and we went back to the apartment. And anyway, like, that was like, that's just, like, an example of what it was like, the volatility. Yes. Like. And so he apologizes, and we go back to the apartment, and then. And then he doesn't talk to me for three days. And then when we do talk, he says. I say. Like, I say something, and he's like, well, I. I want kids. I just don't know if I want your kids. And so then at that moment, like, all my dreams are shattered. So I actually end up just like, long story short, leaving.

Lauren Matthias [03:21:06] He begs me to come back. I ended up going back. And there was one moment I started going to a therapist who's, like, talking to you. Things like that was really good. I was in Boston. I was going to a therapist, trying to sort this out.

Lauren Matthias [03:21:26] But I just remember one story, and I think it was a really poignant moment in my life. So I want to share it, because I think I was looking to God, you know, that idea. Going back to my patriarchal blessing.

Lauren Matthias [03:21:38] The time will come. Like, I didn't get married the first time till I'm 33 years old. So I got married at 33. Where you'll be married to a good man, you know, and he will cherish you. He will cherish you.

Lauren Matthias [03:21:50] And I just wanted to feel cherished. And like, I said, like, I feel like God. I was always relying on God to love me. You know, God gave me my unconditional love, and I thought then my husband was going to give me this unconditional love.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:05] Like, this is where, you know, like, maybe that, you know, from God to a husband, like, he's gonna love me. He's gonna cherish me. And I kept trying to figure out, like, do I leave? Do I go? Because, like, there's so many mixed messages of two people love the Lord, then it has to work. If. And he. He was very, very religious, very strong in the church and the rules and being LDs and a return missionary.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:32] And so I was like, you know, or something's broken, you fix it. Or. My grandmother stayed with my grandpa, who was very difficult. She was a saint. Like, there's so many cultural lessons. Like, you forgive and you forget. Like, there's so many cultural messages. Like, marriage is hard.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:53] You know, how hard? Like, I didn't know. I had no parents to ask what was going on. I had my mother, but, like, she was struggling. You know, she was fragile. And I remember someone from my ward wrote me again, my homeward. That homeward, Lauren, are you happy? And I'm like, I don't know. And, like, telling me you should leave. Like, my Mormon ward family is, like, reaching out, you know, in all my confusion of, like, I can't break this, like, temple marriage. They're like, get out of there. So, again, like.

Lauren Matthias [03:23:28] Like, so much of my saving grace and so many of my most difficult times has been my Mormon village. Like, what are you doing? And so I. I. There's this moment, though. So I remember the therapist I was working with, the.

Lauren Matthias [03:23:53] He was a psychologist, and I was talking to him about my husband, and I was saying, well, you know, if he is difficult or if he's selfish, like, doesn't he deserve love? Like, can't I figure out how to love him? Right? And the psychologist said, well, I think you're asking the wrong question. Like, don't you deserve love? Like, should you be loved? And that was actually really confusing for me because I wanted love. I wanted to be cherished. I wanted to feel love. But, like, deserving love was an entitlement.

Lauren Matthias [03:24:29] It was something I feel like I was owed or deserved, like. Or entitled to. And I actually. There was, like, a moment, like, actually, I don't know if I do. And again, like, always relying on God for love. And so there's this moment where he was studying at the library, and our car was parked further away because we were in some student housing in Boston, and it was Sunday, and so I needed to pick him up for church, and he never liked being late to church, ever.

Lauren Matthias [03:25:02] And I forgot we were parked so far away. So by the time I was like, crap, I'm gonna be late. And as I go outside, there's a woman. I remember her. This is our neighbor Olive. She was older.

Lauren Matthias [03:25:14] And I rushed out, she stopped me, and she's like, are you going to church? Yeah. What church? Oh, the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. Like, what do they believe? I was like, shoot. So it was like this moment of, like, a decision.

Mindy Caldwell [03:25:23] I don't have time. I know. I'm like, to be a missionary right now.

Lauren Matthias [03:25:27] I know. Exactly. And I chose to be a missionary. And I talked to her for a little bit. I was rushing to the car, and I heard the phone ringing, and I knew he was going to be angry that it was late.

Lauren Matthias [03:25:37] And I said, I'm sorry. I'm coming. There was someone I was talking to. I felt I needed to talk to her. And he's like, you can't be late. You can't be late. And he gets in the car and he's like, you cannot be late anymore. And I'm trying to explain myself because this is where I'm probably difficult or assertive. Like, I know I hear you, but hear me out. Like, I just want to explain myself. Like, I did this because, like, all of. And he was like, you cannot be late. And I started crying.

Lauren Matthias [03:26:05] I was just crying because he was yelling. And he flipped down my passenger mirror in the car, and he goes, look at yourself. Like, look at yourself. You are crazy. And I looked at myself with tears streaming down my cheeks, and I looked in the mirror and I said, I love you, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [03:26:29] He goes. I go, I love you. And he goes, what are you doing? You are crazy. And I go, if someone needs to love me, it's going to be me. So I love me. And I think that was, like, a moment of just, like, I have got.

Lauren Matthias [03:26:45] I love me. Like, I wasn't going to rely on God. I wasn't going to rely on some guy in my patriarchal blessing to cherish me. I wasn't going to rely on some guardian angel to come down and with the Holy Ghost and say, it's okay to leave.

Lauren Matthias [03:26:58] I loved myself. And that was, like, a moment for transition for me. Like, that I'll never forget. And I wish I could say that it was right then that I decided to leave. It wasn't. But I did get reached out to while I was living in Boston by an old producer friend of mine from Salt Lake City who said, hey, are you looking for a reporting job? And I was like, I don't know. And he was like, well, I'm moving to Boise. He was a producer. He's like, I'm going to start as a reporter.

Lauren Matthias [03:27:28] So they're looking for someone. Would you want to come? And the last place I wanted to go back to was Idaho. I was like, really? This is my life. I'm now. Now I'm 34 and married and in a bad marriage and, you know, in a beautiful city. And I. I've got to go escape back to Idaho. And I said, yeah. So I. I had a Skype interview.

Lauren Matthias [03:27:56] And they were so kind. They were like, my husband was actually graduating in two months, and he didn't have a job lined up. So I was like, you know, so there wasn't like, I'm leaving him. It was like, well, me, like, he doesn't have a job lined up. We're destitute. We're going to the debt. I have nothing, you know, so maybe I can do this and, like, have this, like, place where we can go. So anyway, I get this job in Boise.

Lauren Matthias [03:28:22] I tell him he's like, so you're leaving me? I'm like, I'm not leaving you. Like, it was just. It was just always like, I'm not leaving you. Da, da da da. Long story short, I end up in Boise, Idaho, married and alone, hoping that he comes because he doesn't have a job and he's actually, like, couch surfing that he will not move to Idaho. He will. His. His future, he says, is not in Idaho. So he's instead couch surfing with friends in different states.

Lauren Matthias [03:28:52] But, you know, I set up an apartment for us, but he never comes to Idaho. But in Boise, Idaho, I started reporting again, and it was, like, one of the best two years of my life. So Boise was, like, the best move for my career. Like, they. They valued me and they cherished me, and I actually genuinely cherished myself. Like, I knew I was a good reporter at this moment. I had had enough experience and tools in my tool belt to, like, jump back into broadcasting. And they valued me in a way that I wasn't valued in my marriage.

Mindy Caldwell [03:29:31] It was.

Lauren Matthias [03:29:32] It was, like, really empowering. And they were giving me the top stories and making me their lead reporter and just. And it was a beautiful city, you know, it was. It was not what I had expected. I love Boise.

Lauren Matthias [03:29:47] And so. And I met good friends at work, and I finally had my own bachelorette pad on accident. It wasn't supposed to be. I, you know, got it for, you know, a married couple. But I finally, at one point, put away our, you know, our wedding photos off the wall because I realized he probably wasn't coming. So it was also sad with. Also very sad in that sense.

Lauren Matthias [03:30:14] And in order to numb that pain, I would come home from work and just watch Dateline episodes. Once again, true crime. I was able to finally tell Keith Morrison in person. Keith, you got me through my divorce. He's like, I'm glad to hear that.

Lauren Matthias [03:30:32] But I was still waiting and hoping. It wasn't completely sure because he would come in occasionally when I wanted this divorce. He would say, we have everything to gain and nothing to lose. It was very confusing. And not to mention, you know, I was, like, nearing 35. I wanted a family so badly. So I just kept clinging to this hope that maybe everything could come together.

Lauren Matthias [03:31:02] But during this time, I'd finally was deciding to make the decision to divorce, and I was becoming more and more sure in my decision. And I don't know if you guys remember, but the Ashley Madison dump happened. Do you remember that scandal?

Mindy Caldwell [03:31:21] Was it like the adultery site or.

Lauren Matthias [03:31:23] Yeah, the adultery website where somebody Hacked them and released every email address that had ever been use on Ashley Madison. And I was at work. And, you know, lucky for me, we. You know, my job was to go research it. So I actually remember, oddly, I put in two email addresses and found them both. One was my rapist, and the other was my friend's husband, who I just sense was cheating on her. I didn't tell either of them, but.

Lauren Matthias [03:31:56] But I did. Oddly, that day. You can see, on that day, I hadn't. I clearly was trying to process something. After I found him, like, with the first email address, the guy that assaulted me, I reached out to him. Oddly, I had that, like, hey. And he wrote back. I don't know what I was processing, but it's like one of those odd things. Like, I understand why people do that. I found his email. Like, I knew it, and it was like, that was it. Like, I just was like, huh, Never reached out again. But, like, I think I was trying to, like, should I do something about this? I think I was, like, feeling, like, so much anger to him. Like, what do I do? And I didn't do anything.

Mindy Caldwell [03:32:34] But did he respond?

Lauren Matthias [03:32:37] He did, and then I didn't respond again. It was weird. I don't know. I did that. But with that scandal came Josh Duggar, because Josh Duggar's name was found on the Ashley Madison dump. And it was, you know, just what it was. And I just. I think.

Lauren Matthias [03:33:03] I think it was of interest to me at the time because of where I was. Like, here I was being a godly woman trying to be a. Why, you know, and here is Josh Duggar, who's clearly getting on a site to purposely cheat on his wife while professing family values. I just. I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [03:33:24] It was just sort of something for me. I was thinking about it, and there was a woman named Jessica Kirtland who wrote about it on Facebook. And she, you know, a mother. And she has no idea how much she inspired me and how much I needed what she wrote. So I was, like, just having the hardest time pulling the trigger. I mean, I also didn't have any money. Like, I didn't even know how to get divorced. So, like, you know, it's not simple, but I was just so sort of frozen.

Lauren Matthias [03:34:06] And this woman wrote this, and I just. I've never forgotten it. And I would just like to read it because I think it was, like, the final thing I needed to read to say I've got to get divorced. And so I'm actually reading this from a book of Mine, I wrote a memoir about this kind of point in my life and so I'm going to read it from my book,

John Dehlin [03:34:35] she says.

Lauren Matthias [03:34:37] I know that everyone is laughing about this Josh Duggar story. Oh, a Duggar on Ashley Madison. It's so rich. I wish more people would talk about Anna. I normally keep things light on Facebook, but let's talk about Anna, his wife. Let me tell you, Anna Duggar is in the worst position she could possibly be in right now. Anna Duggar was crippled by her parents by receiving no education, having no work experience or life experience for that matter, and then was shackled to this loser because his family was famous in their religious circle. Anna Duggar was taught that her sole purpose in life, the most meaningful thing that she could do, was to be chaste and proper.

Lauren Matthias [03:35:17] A devout wife and a mother. Anna Duggar did that. Anna Duggar followed the rules that were imposed on her from the get go. And this is what she got in reward. A husband who she found out in the span of six months, not only molested his own sisters, but was unfaithful to her in the most humiliating way possible. While she was fulfilling her duty of providing him with four children and raising them, she lived up to the standard that men set for her of being chaste and godly. And in return, the man who demanded this of her sought women who were the opposite. Be this they told her she was.

Lauren Matthias [03:35:51] It wasn't enough. What is Anna Duggar supposed to do? She can't divorce because the religious environment she was brought up and would blame her and ostracize her for it, even if she would risk that she has no education and no work expense experience to fall back on. So how does she support her kids? From where could she summon the ability to turn her back on everything she ever held to be sacred and safe? Her beliefs, the very things she would turn to for comfort in this kind of crisis are the very reasons she is in this predicament in the first place. How can she reconcile this?

Lauren Matthias [03:36:20] Her parents have utterly, utterly failed her. Think of this. Somewhere Anna Duggar is sitting in prayer, praying not for the strength to get out and stand on her own, but for the strength to stand by this man she is unfortunately married to, to lower herself so that he may rise up on her back as a mother of daughters. This makes me ill. Parents, we must do better by our daughters. Boys, men are born with power. Girls have to command it for themselves. They aren't given it, they assume it and take it. But you have to teach them to do it that they can do it.

Lauren Matthias [03:36:53] We have to teach our daughters that they are not beholden to men like this, that they do not have to marry a man their father deems acceptable and then stay married to that man long, long after he proved himself unacceptable. Educate them, empower them. Give them the tools they need to survive on their own if they must. Josh Duggar should be cowering in fear of Anna Duggar right now. Cowering he isn't, but he should be. He should be quaking in fear that the house might fall down around them if he's in the same room as she. Please instill your daughters with the resolve to make a man cower, if he must, to say, I don't deserve this, and my children don't deserve this.

Lauren Matthias [03:37:28] I wish someone had ever just once, told Anna she was capable of this and that she knew she is. As for my girls, I'll raise them to think they breathe fire. Now, I want to clarify. Many people have different opinions about Anna Duggar today than they did in 2015. So take that for what it's worth. This is 2015 before everything else happened with Josh Duggar.

Lauren Matthias [03:37:54] But what that meant to me at that time gave me the resolve to get out and to get a divorce, and that was just. Yeah, that was it. And I was ready, and I made that decision.

Mindy Caldwell [03:38:13] You spoke so often of hoping to find somebody to rescue you, and then you rescued yourself. And I find that really inspiring.

Lauren Matthias [03:38:27] Thank you. It was a very scary time. But I also remember thinking, like, as much as I wanted children, there were a few things I had to decide if I ever did have children or daughters. But I just always wanted to raise strong daughters. That was like a dream. I always had to raise strong daughters.

Lauren Matthias [03:38:45] I would never be okay with them staying in this marriage. And then I also had to make resolve that I might not ever have kids at this moment, too, because I was 35 and it took me that long. And so I had to just decide, like, yeah, I was. I was on my own. I was gonna do this. I was never gonna give up my career. So, like, that's what that taught me, too. Like, I will never give him my career. I will go get a career. I will be okay. But I just. It's time. So that's what I did.

John Dehlin [03:39:20] So beautiful. So powerful. I'm so grateful you're willing to share such vulnerable things. My only quick thoughts just to kind of share perspective is you were really trailblazing in a way. You. You wrote in your outline that you kind of internally identified as A feminist as a child.

Recovery, Career Growth, and Hidden True Crime

Lauren Matthias [03:39:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:39:46] And what that often means is career minded, at least envisioning yourself being more than a mom and a wife potentially. Right.

Lauren Matthias [03:39:58] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:39:58] And. But Mormonism, historically orthodox Mormon, just isn't set up for a girl and a young woman to naturally slot into a career.

Lauren Matthias [03:40:11] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:40:12] So you're fighting against so much current.

Mindy Caldwell [03:40:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:40:17] And then you add to that, you talk about, you know, being 31 and 32 and not married to the rest of the United States in so many areas in the educated world, it's like so.

Mindy Caldwell [03:40:30] Right.

John Dehlin [03:40:30] That's like. Yeah. That's the time you start thinking about maybe getting married. Once you've established your career and once you have a way to support yourself, depending on what happens in your marriage, if you get married at all. But instead, you know, and we've covered on Mormon stories how many times Mormon women get married at 18, 19, 20, 21. 22 is late for a Mormon woman. Mindy, how old were you?

Mindy Caldwell [03:40:59] I was 22.

John Dehlin [03:41:00] Yeah?

Mindy Caldwell [03:41:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:41:01] Yeah. And I bet you felt like that was later than a lot of my friends.

Mindy Caldwell [03:41:06] I was the last one of my core group of like four friends, the last to get married at 22, and

John Dehlin [03:41:11] Margi was 22 and it felt late for her. And so like 10 years, you know, like after an age that is considered late, you're feeling this incredible pressure. Right. Trying to survive a man's world. Like Utah, Idaho.

Lauren Matthias [03:41:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:41:35] You know, like this isn't, you know, LA or San Francisco or Boston or New York. Right, right. So so many currents are swimming against. And then you're just, you're, you're at your wit's end and you, you kind of have been primed to think that you need someone to rescue you. And so in so many ways, it's. You were kind of a trailblazer and your journey was harrowing because the culture and the structure that on the one hand was always there for you when you needed it, with your wards and important people that you met through the church, which were positive associations. The culture also was sort of a current that you were constantly fighting against. And that probably didn't set you up for success.

Lauren Matthias [03:42:33] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:42:33] In the path you wanted to follow.

Lauren Matthias [03:42:35] Correct. I think that had I not been LDS, I probably would have started my career at 21 or 22. And here I was, as you say, think there's so many conflicting messages. And I would start and stop, start and stop. And so, you know, it was like one or the other, it couldn't be both, which is so sad.

John Dehlin [03:42:55] But also this layer of it's incredibly late and I'm never going to find anyone. And I'm desperate to. That can't. Especially for someone who's conscious and. Or sometimes a little anxious or fearful. That layer of I'm always late, I'm always behind this is never going to happen. That. That can't be a good sense of pressure or a layer to be making decisions under.

Lauren Matthias [03:43:19] No.

Mindy Caldwell [03:43:20] And also, if she's wanting children, like, there really is a time crunch on that too, you know, as well, if that's part of the equation of the plan that you have for yourself, you know, Absolutely.

Lauren Matthias [03:43:33] No. The biological clock.

Mindy Caldwell [03:43:34] The biological clock is.

Lauren Matthias [03:43:36] I actually went in Boise. I thought, I've got to take charge of this. And so I went to see how much it would cost to freeze my eggs because I thought, I can take charge of that. And unfortunately it was $10,000 and I didn't have that. I was, you know, not making that. But, you know, that's something else I thought too well, if I had started my career earlier, I could afford that, and now I can't because I started so late. And so. But that's. That's the other empowering thing too, is, yeah, women that do start their careers, they can do that, you know, you don't have to worry about that.

John Dehlin [03:44:12] So powerful. And I'm so sorry for all of that difficult stuff. And it's when you all hear what comes next, which is the rise of hidden true crime, you meeting Dr. John. It's such an inspiring story to see the phoenix rise. Do I say from the Ashes? I don't know. Is that.

Lauren Matthias [03:44:36] Yeah, I think that's fair.

John Dehlin [03:44:38] So that's. That's the cliffhanger for part two. Before we end, can you show us your book and tell us how people can. Can get it and buy it and what it's called?

Lauren Matthias [03:44:48] Yeah, I actually. It's called Escaping Emotional Abuse. Show us the COVID A Healing Journey.

John Dehlin [03:44:55] Yeah, Okay.

Lauren Matthias [03:44:56] I, you know, I wrote this. I wrote this as a memoir, but to help women that were possibly in the same situation that I was in, because I had wished that there was something like this for me when I was in. It was very confusing. And so I wrote it. And it has actually never been something I've totally shared a ton. It's always been sort of like a behind the scenes, like, hey, if you need it, it. But I. I did want to share it here because I feel like if there's a time to share it, actually it might be Mormon stories.

Mindy Caldwell [03:45:33] Like,

Lauren Matthias [03:45:35] I wrote it from an LDS female's perspective or even a Christian woman's perspective.

John Dehlin [03:45:42] And people can get on Amazon.

Lauren Matthias [03:45:44] Yeah, on Amazon.

John Dehlin [03:45:45] Escaping emotional abuse. And the. And the author is Lauren Matthias. All right, beautiful. Well, such a powerful part one of your story, and we've got so much more because we've got the rise of Hidden True Crime. So today's episode will be the Making of Lauren Matthias.

Mindy Caldwell [03:46:06] Okay, sounds good.

John Dehlin [03:46:09] Mindy, it's been so lovely to have you as. As co host.

Mindy Caldwell [03:46:12] Thanks for having me, John. And thank you, Lauren, for. For sharing some so vulnerably from your heart. We've spent so many hours in this studio together talking about other crimes and other stories, and it's just been such an honor to just sit and listen. And I really appreciate your vulnerability and just feel honored to be here. So thank you for the invite.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:38] Thank you, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [03:46:39] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [03:46:41] And so many elements of your story make sense for why you ended up doing what you do. Right? So know, it's. It's been beautiful to. To see the making what makes you know, the stories and the experiences that make you. So.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:46:55] All right, so, you know, if you're just a Mormon Stories fan and you're learning about Lauren Matthias for the first time, she's got a Wonderful podcast and YouTube channel called Hidden True Crime that she hosts with her husband, Dr. John. And you can check that out if you are a Hidden True Crime fan that happened to. Just come here to enjoy this story about someone that you know and love. Thanks for coming to Mormon Stories. We would love to hear or read your comments. Please comment please. Regardless of which camp you're in, please make lots of comments. We'll read them and we'll respond. Please subscribe to Hidden True Crime podcasts and also if you get a chance, subscribe to this one. If you're not subscribed already. How do people support your podcast? If they want to support you?

Mindy Caldwell [03:47:49] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [03:47:49] You know, follow us on either YouTube or anywhere you listen to podcasts Hidden to Crime. And. And if you do like Hidden True Crime already, actually a great way to support us is to leave us in an Apple review. Or also you can Support us at Patreon.com Hidden True Crime where we do bonus episodes. So I will just do behind the scenes weekly episodes with my husband, Dr. John.

John Dehlin [03:48:16] Yeah, and by the book.

Lauren Matthias [03:48:17] And by the book.

John Dehlin [03:48:20] Yeah. And then of course, for those of you who don't know anything about Lauren or Hidden True Crime, she is for sure one of the world's experts, if not the world's expert on the Lori Ballot, Chad Daybell story and many other stories as well. She's been sought out by national news outlets and is constantly to report on hidden true crime stuff. So the next episode is going to all be about the rise of hidden True Crime podcast, YouTube channel, and all the insight and stories she's learned from the rise of that super successful podcast and channel, which I always say is now more popular than Mormon stories. Is that true? Yet you're always right on the precipice. So you're like,

Lauren Matthias [03:49:06] I looked.

Mindy Caldwell [03:49:07] It is true. She beat you.

John Dehlin [03:49:10] I'll take it.

Mindy Caldwell [03:49:12] It's close, though. You guys are close.

Lauren Matthias [03:49:14] It's close.

Mindy Caldwell [03:49:15] Yeah. That's exciting. It is something that you always bring up and it finally happens. So you look. I'm like, I'm gonna. That's my homework assignment. I'm gonna check that before I go to the studio.

John Dehlin [03:49:24] Congratulations for your success. I'm thrilled.

Mindy Caldwell [03:49:28] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:49:28] Yeah. Yeah. So. So tune in next time for part two of our interview with Lorne Matthias. Thanks so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We appreciate our donors that make this possible. So if you value this content and want to see it continue, you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor. And even though we're lagging behind hidden true Crime, you can still. I'm kidding. You can still support us as well, and we'll do our best to keep up up with. With what they do. But thanks for your support. If you're already a donor, thanks for joining us today. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and come back for part two of our interview with Lauren Matthias. Take care, everybody.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 2041

Welcome Back and Episode Recap

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 2, 2025 and we're here for part two of an epic traditional long form Mormon Stories interview with the Lauren Matthias, co host of Hidden True Crime podcast. How you feeling, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:00:20] Good. Got through part one. Feeling good. It's like a marathon.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] We're also here with my guest co host for today, a face and a name that will be familiar to those of you who have been following Mormon Stories in the past few years, Mindy Caldwell. Hey, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:35] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] Thanks for joining us.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:37] Thanks, John. Happy to be here with you and Lauren.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] And for those who didn't catch part one of our interview with Lauren, pause this episode. Stop it. Go back and watch it. It's about four hours. It's worth every minute. But we talked about so many good things. Of course, for those joining us for the first time, Lauren and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, they co host a super popular true crime YouTube channel and podcast called Hidden True Crime. And also, you know, Lauren and John are consulted nationwide, worldwide as experts on not only true crime, but they're definitely subspecialists in true crime connected to Mormonism. And it turns out it seems like there's a higher percentage of Mormon true crime. Maybe Mormonism punches above its weight in true crime stories. I don't know. Is that possible?

Lauren Matthias [00:01:32] Mormons create content for our podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] So Lauren and Dr. John know a lot about the Lori Daybell and Chad, Lori Valo, Chad Dabel case. They've covered Jodi Hildebrandt, Ruby Franke and just so many Mormon and non Mormon related true crime stories. But we're thrilled to have you. Back in part one, we talked about Lauren's childhood, her upbringing in various parts of Salt Lake City, her always like she wanted to contribute possibly as a journalist in her life. But as life progressed, things happened that she didn't plan. Like her dad ending up in a very public lawsuit that resulted in him going to prison. And in addition, her trying to figure out how to build a journalism career as a Mormon woman who also wanted to get married and have children and live a traditional Mormon lifestyle.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] And the way that things progressed in last episode is her reaching her 30s, still unmarried, which is a shocking thing for a Mormon woman to reach her 30s, unmarried. But she ends up in several unhealthy relationships and ends up marrying a spouse that I will say presents from what I hear or presented as very abusive. And that marriage lasted a couple years.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] And the way we left last episode was that that marriage was on the rocks, if not was going to be ending in divorce, while Lauren was able to get a really cool job on. On a TV station in Boise, Idaho, after having worked in Idaho Falls. That's a bit of a high level recap, Pocatello. Did I say Idaho Falls? Pocatello. No, no, no. It's good. Thank you, Mindy.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] So go check it out. And what we're going to be talking about today is many of the Mormon related stories that Lauren covered in her time at Boise and after and ultimately her meeting Dr. John Matthias, really getting into true crime, especially the Lori Vallow and Chad dabell stuff. And then, you know, how Hidden True Crime podcast was founded and where she is now both with the podcast YouTube channel and with her Mormon faith. How's that?

Lauren Matthias [00:04:08] That was pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Solid.

Mindy Caldwell [00:04:10] Solid.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Are you sure we're not all. Should we all go take a nap or you think we could do this? Can we do this, Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [00:04:15] We're going to do it. We're pushing through.

Lauren Matthias [00:04:16] We're pushing through. No, see, is today.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Okay? All right, so let's see. When we left off, do we end with you saying that there was a divorce or. So did the divorce happen yet?

Lauren Matthias [00:04:29] Okay, yeah, the divorce has happened. We can.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] And that's what year?

Lauren Matthias [00:04:33] 2015.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [00:04:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] So I'm going to back up just a tiny bit if it's okay, because I went through my YouTube messenger, Facebook messenger, and I found that we had several correspondences over the years. And the only reason I'm going to mention these is because there are several Mormon stories that you covered.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] And you were a journalist, but you also were a believing Mormon. And maybe still. Maybe you still are believing Mormon. We'll see how this ends. But I just want to just flag a couple of the cases or stories that you reached out to me about, and if there's any reflections you have on them, I thought that'd be interesting. Is that. All right, so last episode we already talked about Prop 8 and how you find yourself being an LGBT ally or advocate.

Early Mormon Feminist Activism and Faith Doubts

John Dehlin [00:05:30] I found in 2014, you reached out to me about Kate Kelly and ordained women. And. And that's of course, when Kate Kelly was trying to advocate for women in the Mormon Church, being able to obtain priesthood ordination, but also trying to promote feminism.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And I'm curious if you have any, since you expressed last episode that you identified as a feminist, as even a young Mormon child, do you have any reflections on that whole ordained women thing and how it felt for you to see that movement come and go as someone who identified as a Mormon feminist.

Lauren Matthias [00:06:17] Yeah. You know, that's interesting. At the time. So I can tell you at the time and how I feel now at the time of ordain women, when that was really big. I don't know if I agreed that I wanted women to have the priesthood, but I supported ordained women. Like, I supported what they were doing, but I didn't know if I felt strongly or to participate. I would say that's changed. So I remember in living in Boston was when I realized, you know what? I. I do support women having the priesthood. So there you go. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] So at the time, that didn't affect your faith much to see Kate get excommunicated in the. In the movement, kind of be beat down by the church.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:05] I reported on your excommunication and Kate Kelly's excommunication. When I was reporting excommunication, I interviewed you over the phone, actually. And to interview Kate Kelly, too. I assume so. And I just remember thinking that day, do the story. I just. Some days, you know, you're so busy you're not even thinking about your bias. I was like, just do the story. That wasn't the case with another story, though, that I covered in Boise. I don't know if I wrote you about that. Keep going. Because there was one story in Boise that did affect me.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'll get there. So. All right, so. And that makes total sense. You kind of have to compartmentalize. Like, if you're a journalist, it's not about you. It's about the story.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:49] It's about the story. I remember being grateful that Boise gave me the story because I was the only LDS reporter.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:54] So I, like, I remember being glad that I had the story, but. Yeah, right. It was just my day's work. That day was to report on your excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Yeah. So as you're in those early years, as you're covering Mormon related stories, even some that touch on very personal experiences or feelings or beliefs you had, it sounds like your testimony was kind of Teflon. It was just you were. You were doing your job and you probably weren't doing a lot of processing about how these stories personally related to your faith. Is that fair?

Lauren Matthias [00:08:32] They affected me. Not in, you know, I wasn't going to church a ton in Boise, I'll say that. Not that I was purposely not going. I actually tried to go. I'd go occasional, but, you know, there wasn't like a great war that I felt great in. In fact, I do remember Going to church once on Mother's Day and leaving, you know, in the middle of sacrament meeting. But I.

Mindy Caldwell [00:08:56] The.

Lauren Matthias [00:08:57] I always cared about the people and cared about their stories being told. But I think what my belief is is people. It's the humanism. It's the loving one another. So I felt that everybody's story deserved to be told, including yours. Like I felt for you when you. You know, I can't remember our interview, but whatever you felt at that time, I felt like your story deserved to be told. So I think I just always. That's what I cared about, is making sure that everybody felt heard. But

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:33] there.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:34] There was a story. Well, there was one story I did. It wasn't necessarily lds, but it did affect me and actually had to push Boise to let me do it. And it was about a little girl who was transgender, and she was 12, and she wanted to tell her story in Boise, and they didn't want me to do it. So I actually came to the station, said, I want to.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:58] I want to tell DW's story. And they said, our audience is too conservative. I was the only LDS reporter in the newsroom, so it wasn't that, but just in general. Voicey's may be too conservative for this. And I said, you've got to trust me on this. Like, DW story needs to be told. Because she also had this father who had to change, and he talked about burning her Barbies on the barbecue and lighten him up, you know, and then he learned about the suicide rates, and he's like, I've got to change, and I have to have a funeral for my son and a birth for my daughter.

Lauren Matthias [00:10:34] And I pushed and I said, if anybody can tell this story in this town, it's me, because I am of the LDS faith. You gotta trust me. And I went all the way to corporate. I was like, you've gotta let me tell DW story. And that one really affected me because I so believe still to this day in DW story and her dad's story, too. And I did win first place at the Idaho Press clubs for that story. And so that was a story that really affected me again. But that's probably not a story I contacted you about.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] No, that's fine.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:11] But that affected me, and I don't know what's keep going on a couple others. There is another one that really affected me and Boise, but keep going.

The Boise Rescue and Mormon Fringe Movements

John Dehlin [00:11:19] So another one that happened in mid-2015 that I had forgotten about about was the Boise rescue. So for those who have no idea what that Means Denver Snuffer is and was sort of what I would call a neo fundamentalist, kind of a precursor to the Chad Dabel and Lori Valo. He's an attorney, lived in Sandy, Utah, and he started writing books about receiving what's called the second Comforter, which is basically fasting and praying and being as righteous as you can until you can get a personal visitation from Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] And he was the first. He was excommunicated, actually, before me and before Kate. He was excommunicated in 2013. But in my mind he was the kickoff of this sort of 10 year span of Mormon Church excommunications. But by. But by mid-2015 and by the way, he had tens of thousands of followers who viewed him as a prophet. They viewed the Mormon Church as fallen, but they view Denver Snuffer as like a one mighty and strong, called to restore the restoration, basically and help get the Mormon Church right or lead a movement kind of like the Church of the Firstborn. Right. And what's in Visions of Glory, lead sort of a movement of true Mormons that also a lot of them happen to be preppers.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] So that all happened and it culminated between his excommunication in 2013 and mid-2015, with a lot of people in Idaho following Denver Snuffer with weird fringe neo fundamentalist prepper like Mormon beliefs. So you covered the Boise rescue, which was Mormon church leaders descending on Boise to try and stave off all the excommunications resignations of people who became snuff rights. And I don't even know if you remember how much about that or how it influenced you, but that was something than we corresponded about.

Lauren Matthias [00:13:26] Interesting. Yeah. I think I do remember interviewing a gentleman who was a snuff. Right about that. And that is interesting because Foreshadowing. Yeah. Lori Valo loved Ember Snuffer's book, Second Comforter. Yeah, Loved, loved. And now declares that she had her own vision of Christ. Yeah, I don't know. I don't. I don't know how much that one affected me, but yeah, no, it's fine.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] And then later in 2015, the November 2015 policy comes out. So we've already talked about LGBT stuff. That's when the church, in response to same sex marriage being legal, legalized nationwide, just lashed out at same sex married couples and basically said, you're an apostate if you get same sex marriage. Automatic excommunication for same sex marriage. And your children can't even get confirmed or baptized or be members until they're 18, and they denounce your marriage. So you covered that.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:18] Yeah, that one affected me. Did I reach out to you about that one?

John Dehlin [00:14:20] Yes, we did.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:21] Really? Yeah, that one affected me. In fact, that story that I did that day is, to this date, the most watched news story I've ever done.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] Oh, really?

Mindy Caldwell [00:14:30] Really. On the. The November 2015 policy.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:34] Yep. And I received love and hate mail. All I did is tell somebody's story, and people calling, you know, saying, this is not. Someone needs to fix this. And I would get on the phone and say, I'm actually mlds. They'd say, this is not done.

Mindy Caldwell [00:14:48] Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:49] I'm lds.

Mindy Caldwell [00:14:49] Let me get to somebody who's lds.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:51] Yeah, I'm like, I'm the reporter. I'm lds. But, yeah, that story. Yeah. I told the story of a boy, a mother, and a son, and the son was prepping to go on a mission, and he was no longer now going because his father was gay. And so that was it for him. The entire trajectory of his life changed that day. And so I went over there and told their story.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] And then, interestingly, we don't have another correspondence, at least in Facebook messenger, until 2021, where we talk about the Daybell case.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:29] Interesting.

Finding Love and Navigating Mormon Dating Culture

John Dehlin [00:15:30] So maybe now's a good time to talk about meeting Dr. John and what happened between 2015 and 2021.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:38] I was busy. Yeah. Interesting. That's so funny. Memory lane. Wow.

Mindy Caldwell [00:15:47] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:47] So, you know, I. I got divorced preparing to. I. I mean this sincerely. Preparing to be single for the rest of my life. Like, I was like, I. I wanted to go to cnn. That was my goal. I was like, you know what? Like, I want to go to cnn. You can do this. You're on your own, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:03] Pep talk. You might not have kids, but it's okay. Or maybe you can adopt one day, because I did want a child. I did date occasionally. I got online. Nothing was going well. I had no direction at that point because nothing. I'd never dated someone that worked out, like, ever. Like, here I am, 35 and single. So I just. You know, I occasionally wanted to try to date, but I had no real expectations and no, again, no real direction. I went out with some people I probably shouldn't have gone out with because I just. I was like, I don't know. I have. You know, there's no.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:46] There's no list anymore. There's no. I have no idea. And I actually was even thinking about what kind of future, you know, it was for me. And, you know, what article came out at this time? If you remember it? Do you remember Time magazines article, Jews and Mormon? What those two cultures can tell us about the dating crisis?

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Do you remember that?

Lauren Matthias [00:17:18] That came out in 2015, right after I'd gotten divorced.

Mindy Caldwell [00:17:22] Wow.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:24] So that, that article was about me. So I was. The gist, I sat down and read that article. The gist was that essentially, as you get older, Mormon women and Jewish women are absolutely outnumbered to Mormon men and Jewish men, these two conservative groups, men fall away from the church more than women do. So they're more, as you get older, more active participants in the religions that are female.

Lauren Matthias [00:18:04] So a lot of them are not going to meet somebody essentially, or get married or if they do meet someone, they're going to settle and they're going to greater means like breast augmentations and desperate to try to land a man and essentially settling.

Lauren Matthias [00:18:27] And I read that and I thought, yeah, what is this? And this idea in our church that, well, don't worry if you don't meet a man in this life, you'll have one in the next. Like, to put it mildly, like, I thought that was bullshit. Like, I'm not waiting till I'm dead to find love. And like I said, I was determined to be single. I was okay being single, but I'm not going to dedicate my life to finding this LDS returned missionary, you know, and if I can't find him, just wait till I'm dead.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Because there's also the Mormon rule. Don't marry a non Mormon.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:09] Yeah, like that's. It's just, you know, so that article really affected me too. Like, yeah, that's. This is. I sort of. Yeah. I don't know who to look for. You know, I don't even know. But I don't think I'm going to marry a Mormon man either. And I opened myself up to other possibilities. And actually I wrote on Facebook, speaking of Facebook, about that article and that does play a part in my meeting John. So I'll read you what I wrote on Facebook after I read that article.

Mindy Caldwell [00:19:49] So this is.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] We mentioned this book last time, but tell us the name of this book again.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:53] This book is called Escaping Emotional Abuse, A Healing Journey by yours truly. I wrote in 2019. So it's so funny too, because I would never post Facebook posts like this now, but I did back then. So here, here were my thoughts on the article.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:15] I said, believe it or not, the rise in Mormon breast implants and $1,000 Jewish dowries can explain why you're alone on a Friday night. Time magazine. Ha. That's all I needed to hear to admit the author had done his research.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:31] To summarize parts of the article, the Mormon dating scene is comparable to the Bachelor in past decades. Women trying to snag the last remaining good guy would work on her cooking skills or smile more. Today, work is often done by a doctor.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:44] It hurts that there is a culture within the faith I love where so many feel they are not enough. We've been complaining about the picky men for years. It's not new. There will always be men and women who measure worth by appearance.

Lauren Matthias [00:20:58] So let's try something new. Be unapologetically. You try spending your Friday night happily alone before spending it with anyone who is wishing you were a 9 instead of an 8.5. There are good men out there, wonderful men. I give men more credit. I think we'll learn about those good men and discover who they are once we love ourselves completely and fully. Once we stop believing, we might not be enough, let's allow the good men to give us some more attention. No matter their religion. Jewish men are sexy, Baptists can drink, and Catholics could be right. So I actually was embarrassed about the post after, and I deleted it

Mindy Caldwell [00:21:38] a

Lauren Matthias [00:21:38] week later, but not before my cousin saw it. And my cousin's boss was John Matthias, and he is a very private guy. He's a psychologist and had worked at this nonprofit clinic for family and children for 10 years as their clinical director.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:08] And somehow or the other he had come to work and said, you know, like this is frustrating. I just can't find anyone to date. And so my cousin had seen had learned that I had just gotten divorced and she was younger than me, we didn't talk that much and showed him my photo and he read that post. So he said, would he's not lds. Would she be okay that I'm not lds? So she called her aunt. I'm sitting home on the weekend on Boise. I get a call from my aunt, my very LDS aunt, and she says, I'm here to call you to see if you'd be willing to be set up.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:46] And I was like, okay. She'd never tried to set me up with anyone. She said, well, they want me to ask two questions, but are you okay that he wouldn't be lds? Again, she's very lds, and are you okay that he wouldn't be lds? And he's supposed to be incredibly nice and he might be a little bit older. And I said, sure, that works, Aunt Kathy.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:12] And then a couple days later I got a text from John, who introduced himself and set up a time to talk and remind us where you were

Mindy Caldwell [00:23:22] living and where he was living at the time.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:24] I was living in Boise, Idaho, still, still working in Boise as a reporter. And John was in Las Vegas or partly in Las Vegas. And so I said sure. And he set up a time to talk, which was also like, wow, you know, he's not asking for my picture. He's not trying to chit chat, like okay, he's just like, let's set up a time to talk.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:48] I was, you know, just sort of whatever at that moment. So I actually went to my friend's house that night and was hanging out with my girlfriend and I just said, hey, at some point this guy might call and if he does, I'll just go into the room and answer it really quickly and talk to him. But I wasn't like setting up side time time. And she says, sure, absolutely. So we're hanging out at her house and I get a call and I go to the other room and I am in there for two hours.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:19] We talk about our past unhealthy relationships, we talk about murder. I, I learned that he's a criminal psychologist and I'm like, okay, well I'm, I'm actually covering this triple homicide right now. It's really disturbing. Let me tell you about it.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] Which was what?

Lauren Matthias [00:24:40] Adam Dees was his name in Boise, Idaho is very, very tragic. The sheriff had actually said. And his, he was retiring and he said, in my entire career, I've never seen something so brutal. But a young 22 year old Christian man committed his first crime by going into a house.

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:56] Criminal history. I remember that story.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:58] No criminal history. He picked a house on Google Maps. So it's like, this is like your worst nightmare. Picked a house on Google Maps, went murdered the whole family. And then. Yeah, and I was there that night it happened. You know, we had heard that there were bodies found and went and stood outside the house. So I was covering this really traumatic murder. So we, we talked about murder on our first phone call. We talked about unhealthy relationships on our first phone call. He listened. I had never had a phone call like this in my life. And I hung up and.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:40] But that was that. I didn't expect anything because I just thought, you know, too good to be true. But it was really nice. I thanked my cousin and said no, it happened, but it's great. And he called like it just, it's so funny because I was divorced in February and it was September and I was just, we talked every night since like he called the next night and the next night and the next night, and we were.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:06] We were quickly falling in love. I mean, it was like love is blind before Love is blind. I hadn't even seen a picture of him. He had no presence on the web, and he wasn't asking for a picture of me, which I loved. So I wasn't asking for a picture of him. And so I was just talking to this guy every night.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:25] He was incredible. But at the same time, Milwaukee had called. The Milwaukee news station, who was part of our company, had called Boise asking to speak to me. And they were wanting to offer me a job interview because they had been watching my stuff and said, we'd like to fly you to Milwaukee.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] That's a bigger market than Boise.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:46] Much bigger market than Boise. And away to Chicago, right? And if I have this dream and I've already set the stage, I'm like, I will not give up my career ever again for a man. I have done this over and over and over again. It will not happen again.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:06] So as John and I are talking every night, Milwaukee's calling, and I. They fly me out. And so I'm telling them, by the way, flying to Milwaukee for a job interview. And I'm texting my cousin. I'm like, look, maybe you should get this guy to come up and meet me. Like, he hadn't. He just kept calling me every night. And so anyway, we talked while I was in Milwaukee every night. Like, every night. He said, how did it go? I was like, it was incredible. They offered me twice as much as I was making in Boise. They loved me.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:42] I come back, and so he's like, he came back the week after I came back from Milwaukee. He finally drove up. And I remember when he drove up, it was actually another murder that I was covering when he arrived. I mean, Boise doesn't have murders every day. So he came up, we went to, you know, I was very nervous. I was very anxious when I met him.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:02] And it was. But it was. You know, it was. It was fun to meet him. He was wonderful. And then he left, though, like, the next day. And Milwaukee then called and offered me the job. And so I had to call him the next day and say, look, it's nice to meet you, but I just got this job in Milwaukee, and I'm gonna have to accept it. And I. You know, and I hope that we can continue getting to know each other, but I'm gonna be in Milwaukee now.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:40] And that conversation led to him being, you know, look, I'm falling in Love with you I know this is soon, but we need to talk. Cause I would rather have you not move away. We're both. He was older than me. He had never been married, so he. Yeah. So I guess I'm sharing this because things went very fast, and he sat with me on the phone that night, not telling me what to do. No one had ever not told me what to do, but sharing what he believed our future could hold and didn't think that my future held everything in Milwaukee. He's like, I know.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:20] I explained to him, like, I cannot give up my career for a man. And he's like, I just think you're not looking at what you're capable of. He was telling me, like, I just think that there are some opportunities, you know, I don't think you should give up your career, but I want you to, like, just consider. And I think that things could be incredible with us. So it was going very fast.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Wait, what. What vision did he have for your career that was better than Milwaukee? I'm just dying to know what his pitch was. Like, you're gonna win a Daytime emmy here in St. George. Like, what. What was the pitch?

Lauren Matthias [00:30:00] He actually said to me then, I think we could even start a business. He said, you. You could be a reporter, But I think that we could do even something bigger. Yeah. He's just like, I think that there could be a business. I think. I think you should just stay open.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Sounds like he wanted you to stay.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:22] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:30:23] He was a man in love. Didn't want to lose you.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:26] That's so funny. I'm telling the story. He's gonna be so embarrassed.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] Why are you.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:29] I don't know why I'm telling this. I was gonna tell this story.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] Well, I mean, you just got through saying, I'm never gonna let a man take me away from my career again.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] So I'm just. How did he. You know, that's why I'm asking. He sounds like you did. I know.

Mindy Caldwell [00:30:41] Maybe.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] Or at least temporarily.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:44] Well, the next day, I went into Boise and I gave my two weeks notice and took the job in Milwaukee.

Mindy Caldwell [00:30:52] Okay, you did.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:54] And I. Yeah. And I came home and I. And I told him. I said I took the job. And he was like, wow. But he. He didn't say, you shouldn't have. Or he was like, I'm surprised you decided so quick. I'm like, well, they need an answer. Like, I've got to do this.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:10] So I gave my two weeks, and I hired a moving van, and I was going to Milwaukee, and You know, he visited again. And then I actually, after that visit, yeah, I was. I was. I was falling in love with him, too. And I. It was. It was.

Choosing Marriage Over a Career Move

Lauren Matthias [00:31:33] Yeah, it was hard. It was hard. So, ultimately, I. I changed my mind, and I called Milwaukee and I said, I. I can't do it. And it was like, out of a movie. They were like, are you kidding? Like, you could go anywhere from here. Like, it was, like, a hard sell. And they're like, what are you doing? And the irony is, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. So I was thinking to myself, what am I doing?

Lauren Matthias [00:32:01] And so after I gave up Milwaukee, I then grew really resentful, I think, towards John. And I actually even broke up with him for a second because I was so angry that I did that. It was easier to blame John for what I just did. But we got.

Lauren Matthias [00:32:23] I'll just say it all worked out. But at that moment, I had no job because I had given my two weeks. So John came up. John had been moving to St. George from Vegas. He's from Chicago, but he thought the Red Rock was beautiful. He was single, and so he wanted to be near to the Red Rock. So he moved. He's like, yeah, I live in this town called St. George. I'm like, I know a.

Mindy Caldwell [00:32:50] Well. Like, I've heard of it.

Lauren Matthias [00:32:53] I've heard of it. And I'm like, there goes my, you know, job in Las Vegas, too. You know.

Mindy Caldwell [00:32:58] Right. Because you might have been thinking. I was thinking Vegas probably has some opportunities for journalism.

Lauren Matthias [00:33:05] Yeah. So needless to say, he. He came up to Boise and helped me move to St. George, and I. I moved to St. George. And then, you know, at that moment, I felt sort of frustrated again with myself and with the situation. And he had never been married. And I remember thinking, like, he's not gonna marry me. Like, what have I done?

Lauren Matthias [00:33:33] So I expressed this to him, and so he said, well, let's just go elope. And we did within two days. Like, a real elopement. Like, it was his birthday coming up in two days. He said, well, if you can find someone to offici. Officiate, I don't want to get married in a. He proposed to me on Valentine's Day, I should mention. So I was divorced. Valentine's Day, 2015, engaged, Valentine's 2016. But then I wanted to just get married. And so he said, let's elope. And we.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:08] If you can find an officiator. I don't want to get married in the courthouse. We'll do this. And so I. I pulled that off. I found an officiator, and we got married at Zion national park on his birthday, 2016.

Mindy Caldwell [00:34:24] Nice.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:25] And, yeah, there we were. And it's hard to explain to people how it went so fast after everything I'd went through, but I. I was so in love. And I had never felt anything like this before, and everything felt possible. So, in fact, I did want to share after I got engaged with them. That was something I wanted to share, too. So this was when we got engaged. Yeah, it was fast. In fact, it was.

Mindy Caldwell [00:35:01] It was.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:01] I couldn't believe it. You know, you hear those stories too. Like, people get divorced and they get married so quickly, and it was. I just. I felt I had met my soulmate. And you know what? I know that that is cliche, and people say you shouldn't say there are soulmates, but John is my soulmate. But I.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:20] When he proposed, this is what I wrote on Facebook. As a kid, I would hear about Gloria Steinman's radical feminist theories. They were usually being debated or mocked, but I liked her. I liked her strength. I liked her voice. I liked the conversation. I liked to either agree or disagree with her, whatever it was. She has some famous or infamous quotes on marriage. The surest way to be alone is to get married. Or the two happiest groups are married men and unmarried women.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:49] I had disagreed with her take on marriage because one day I wanted to get married and to love. But the past few years, in pain, I started to believe she was right and I was naive. But a quote of Gloria's. I've always loved one that I now remember with more potency and hope, is when, at 66 years old, she chooses marriage for the first time. And Gloria says something very un. Gloria, being married is like having somebody permanently in your corner. It feels limitless, not limited.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:17] I really think I'm beginning to understand in a new way, and I'm grateful for that understanding. It's been hard to get here and there's been pain, but it finally feels limitless. I am so excited to marry this man. So, you know, I called him my football playing feminist. And yeah, so we got married.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] Can I ask a quick question about that? So you already mentioned that, but you kind of let go of the idea that you'd ever find a righteous Mormon man to marry. But there is the Mormon theology that families that get married in a Mormon temple, they get sealed in a Mormon temple, are eternal. And the children that are born into families sealed in a Mormon temple will be with their Parents forever.

John Dehlin [00:37:07] And the flip side of that, or the manufactured scarcity, as I like to call it, is that if you don't get married in a Mormon temple, your marriage ends when you die and you won't be with your partner in the social kingdom, and any kids you have, you won't get to be with them in heaven. Because in the Mormon world, God separates spouses and children if they aren't all faithful Mormons, basically. What did you do with that theology as a believing Mormon?

Mindy Caldwell [00:37:39] I.

Lauren Matthias [00:37:41] Two things. I really wanted to get sealed and sealed to him. I didn't believe that God would keep us apart, so I did believe that I would be with John forever. But it was a. It was a metaphor for me and something that I valued and it meant a lot to me. And the idea of being sealed together forever with him was something I really wanted and craved.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:09] And I would even talk to him about it. And he actually loved the idea that there was a heavenly mother in Mormonism. Like, he loved that. He was like, I love that there's this heavenly mother. And that if you think about this metaphor of a male and a female not being able to make it without one another, you know, to heaven, like, he thought that was so cool.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:35] And I thought it was too. If you just look at it as sort of this idea, you know. And so in my hope that I could be sealed and maybe I should throw this out too. I'm still sealed to my ex husband.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] I was gonna ask that. Oh, you mean to this day? No. Oh, okay.

Mindy Caldwell [00:38:57] At that time, you were still sealed.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:59] Yeah. I just wanted that, you know, as. As a symbolic. I craved it. And it was also surprisingly kind of overwhelming to marry someone that wasn't lds. I felt a loss. Not again. I knew I was going to be with John forever.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:20] I just didn't imagine a God that would separate two people in love. But I did mourn the idea that he wasn't LDS and that it wasn't going to be what I envisioned. And all of a sudden you're there and you realize he's not going to be coming to church with me or it's just not going to be what I knew growing up. Like, this is not.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:46] He's not going to understand this community and this heritage. Like, I understand, right at sociology, like, that was like, sort of playing apart. Like, wow, this is different. Like, he does come from a different world and I come from this different world. And so I did mourn sort of this idea that we wouldn't have this in common, but he was willing to take the missionary discussions, and we did that. He came to church. He was not very religious, but he. He did go through the missionary discussions very quickly. He wanted to get baptized outside. The mission president said no. He was like, what the hell? Like, why?

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Like in a river or something?

Lauren Matthias [00:40:28] Yeah. The baptism interview didn't go well for either of us. That was weird. And so finally he said, lauren, I will get baptized, but if I do it, I realize it is for you and it's not for me. And if I'm going to be true to myself, I want you to know that I probably would not get baptized. And so I looked at him and said, you need to be true to yourself. I don't want you to get baptized for me. And in that moment, we both came to the conclusion that that's what it would be. And to this day, he's been very respectful of when I choose to go to church, when I don't, whatever I do, whatever I teach our son.

Balancing Faith Differences in Marriage

Mindy Caldwell [00:41:15] That was a question that I had. Did you have a conversation before you were married or kind of at this time in your marriage about what religious practices you would have if you two had children together?

Lauren Matthias [00:41:31] He didn't adhere to any religion. I did share that I would like to raise a child lds. And he said he was open to that, but that we both wanted to raise a child that would understand again all religions and all faiths and all the possibilities out there.

Lauren Matthias [00:41:52] And so it felt easy. Honestly, I think it has been easy for us. You know, we found out we were pregnant, and, like, we both wanted a child so, so much. And in fact, when he was born, I'll just.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:19] I'll share that, and I'll share what we did for his blessing. But I was. When he was born, we had a baby blessing for him because I wanted him to be a child on record. And my dad had actually just gotten out of prison after my child was born.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:38] And so he came down and we decided to have a baby blessing in the home. And we invited the bishop and the sister missionaries, and John participated. His parents came that weren't religious. So it was. It was a symbolic, beautiful sort of moment of coming together of cultures. And my dad blessed our son while I held him also. That's something. I don't know what that is, but I just simply looked at the bishop and said, can I hold him? And he said, sure. I've heard people say they can't do that. It was. I just did.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:16] But of course, you know, if the bishop said no, I'd have said, well, I'm holding him anyway, so maybe it was just me, but my dad gave my son a blessing. And then afterwards, John then said, I want to give him a blessing. And so then John took our son and encouraged the sister missionaries that were there and all of the guests that were there to come into the circle with him and his parents and everybody. And we all wrapped arms around one another while John blessed our baby. And so this is a really beautiful moment. And to me, I think that demonstrates what our interfaith marriage has been like.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] It's beautiful.

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:00] I love that.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:00] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:01] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] Real quick, was your dad excommunicated?

Lauren Matthias [00:44:03] He never was.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] Interesting. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:05] Yeah, they. They did look over things and did not feel he needed to be. So that was no discipline or anything.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] That's why he was able to be a part of that.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:16] Maybe. Yeah. And while we were pregnant, I got a job with my old station in Salt Lake city as the St. George correspondent. And a lot a part of that, the irony was a Hill Dale in Colorado City. We're a part of that where. So now we're full circle with polygamy. I've served in Kirtland, Ohio, and where it all began, and. And now I'm in the land of Warren Jeffs.

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:47] So was Warren Jeffs already in prison?

Lauren Matthias [00:44:49] Warren Jeffs was already in prison. He had been there for a while. It was 2016, 2017. So now I was in the land of, you know, Warren Jeffs and polygamy. And it was really changing during this time, though, because Warren Jeff was in prison. A lot of ex flds were moving back to the community. Donya Jessup was being elected mayor. I reported on that. FLDS communities were trying to stay there, but some feeling like they were being pushed out. I met many wonderful FLDS women. I reported on FLDS women becoming victims, advocates to identify and recognize abuse, opening new businesses, and really learn to love, you know, those women that are flds. And that was something else I remember thinking a lot about. Like, the only reason I'm not FLDS is because my ancestors didn't go.

Mindy Caldwell [00:45:44] Stayed with the mainstream church.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:46] Right. Like, that's the only reason, you know, like, they are Mormon just as much as I'm Mormon.

Mindy Caldwell [00:45:52] Right. And not all splinter groups became flds, but still, you know, it's where they were born, which families they were born into, generally is where they stay.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:05] Yeah, exactly. That was the only thing separating us. And they were. They were wonderful. And I do believe there needs to be more humanizing of the FLDS community. So often we just equate it to Warren Jeffs, and, you know, just. They're called a cult. And you see these women in the prairie dresses. And the one thing I learned is, like, that is exactly what causes the abuse and the isolation that they feel so pushed to the side. Like, you can't just leave a community and a culture and a religion. Like, we think that the answer to Warren Jeffs and those are flds is just, get out. How do you leave your family? How do you leave your children? How do you leave your marriage? How do you leave the community you grew up in?

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Your faith.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:53] Your faith.

Mindy Caldwell [00:46:54] I mean, this is a lifestyle of indoctrination of generations, right?

Lauren Matthias [00:46:59] This is a lifestyle. This is the place they live. This is everything. And I think so often we simplify that to, well, they just need to leave. And that's one thing I think that I learned through reporting in Hilldale and Colorado City is that's not so simple. And actually, as a society, we need to humanize them and accept them and not create more of an isolation where abuse can happen.

Mindy Caldwell [00:47:29] And I think it's important to note that there are people outside of any type of Mormonism who are looking at mainstream Mormonism and maybe thinking the same thing. Like, who believes that why don't, you know, just leave? It's just interesting how we can do the same thing to other groups, even within our own bubble, but within our own frame of reference. But you know, that there's people that don't have any experience with Mormonism who look at just mainstream active Mormons and they're like, what are they doing, you know, anyway.

Lauren Matthias [00:48:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Those Scientologists in Jehovah's Witness.

Mindy Caldwell [00:48:04] So easy. It's so easy to demonize. Right, exactly.

Lauren Matthias [00:48:08] Right. It's so easy. And again, that just sort of goes to. There's so much, you know, foreshadowing here with what John and I are going to do with our podcast. But, yeah, the humanizing and the dehumanizing crime is dehumanizing. All crime is dehumanizing.

Mindy Caldwell [00:48:22] Right?

Lauren Matthias [00:48:23] The opposite of crime is humanizing. And that's what Christ did. And so. And again, that's how I identify, you know, as a Christian. But. So I'm pregnant at this time. I'm gonna be a reporter and a mother. My dream is coming true. I'm in a happy marriage.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] A reporter. Where?

Lauren Matthias [00:48:43] In St. George in Hildale, Colorado City. So I'm. I'm reporting for my old station in Salt Lake City as their correspondent in St. George. And the irony about reporting to St. George too. You know, Lori and Chad Dabel are getting married during that or meeting during that time in St. George. Jody Hildebrandt. Wait, while you're there doing therapy? Yeah. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:49:04] You were there.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:05] I didn't know. I didn't actually, but I was there in St. George's I wish I had not have been the biggest story I've ever come to.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Oh, that's serendipitous.

Mindy Caldwell [00:49:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] That you were literally physically in St.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:15] George when they were meeting. And Jody Hildebrandt's doing therapy. John shows up at, you know, a training with her. He can't get work in St. George because it's going to. Jody.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] Oh, my goodness.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:29] You know, I'm. I'm teaching, or not teaching, excuse me, but reporting on Hill Dale and Colorado City and what's going on there. And I'm also learning just the secrets that are in St. George and this sort of vault that it is like, I've never liked. I have now reported throughout Idaho and Utah, and I will tell you, there are more secrets in St. George, Utah than any other place. Like when you talk about the old Boys Club and you talk about. And I think that goes too, I just want to say, with the origin story of Hilldale in Colorado, like, you can't get rid of an origin story. We know that. Look at our origin story. You just can't get rid of that.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] It's also right down the road from the Mountain Meadows massacre.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:14] Mountain Meadow, Matic.

Mindy Caldwell [00:50:15] Yeah, exactly.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:16] And everything that happened in St. George, Salt Lake looked away. That's the entire history of St. George, Utah. Go down to St. George. Look, they're practicing polygamy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:50:26] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:27] Just let them do what they do. St. George is its own entity. Like, don't worry about St. George. They'll govern themselves. It's, you know, isolated and. Yeah, it was interesting to be a reporter there. And I was the only reporter there. You know, I did everything. I was my own cameraman, did everything. When it comes to St. George and the origin story, you know, as John and I always say, you're as sane or as sick as the secrets you keep. And I think sometimes the.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:59] The most crime sometimes happens in the places where they are the most secrets, you know, like I live in Las Vegas now. Like in Las Vegas, like, you know, your next door neighbor might be a stripper, and they're a wonderful person and everybody knows and there's no secrets in St. George.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:17] It's beautiful. But then when you peel back the layers and the secrets and I think that's the origin story of St George, starting with polygamy and Hilda and looking the other way. Don't ask, don't tell creates a lot of secrets in this isolated town.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:33] So that's what I learned. I also learned, too. I think this was a big part of. John had a really hard time getting work there. He's brilliant, you know, a Princeton educated psychologist and people.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Forensic. Right?

Lauren Matthias [00:51:50] Clinical and forensic.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:52] And he could not get work in St. George. And I was cocky, too. I was like, oh, I got this. I'm a reporter. I'm lds. Because he was like, I think it's because I'm Mormon, Lauren.

Mindy Caldwell [00:52:02] I'm like, no, because I'm not Mormon.

Lauren Matthias [00:52:04] Because I'm not Mormon. Thank you. I think it's because I'm not Mormon. I was like, no, no, no. I. My mind has been changed now.

Mindy Caldwell [00:52:12] Really?

Lauren Matthias [00:52:13] Yeah. It's just. Yeah. And you don't even know it, but, you know, they. And. And what he does is sex offender evaluations, too. You know, Jody Hildebrandt could do the sex offender evaluations, but Dr. John Matthias couldn't.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Well, the church needs insiders to cover that stuff up.

Lauren Matthias [00:52:32] He has never once gotten an LDS sex offender evaluation. And let me just say that's a community danger. The most respected, you know, educated man doing sex offender evaluations in your community is someone you probably want to do, like he will. Whether they stay in the community or locked up matters. And when you have people that are not certified to do them or should be doing them, it's a community safety. But, like, people would just look the other way anyway. I didn't know I'd get into that.

Premature Birth, Parenting, and Discovering Mormon Extremism

Mindy Caldwell [00:53:10] But you started to say that your son was born premature.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:15] My son was born premature. It was an emergency C section, and we almost lost him. He was in the icu, as was I, or he was in the nicu. And this is a story I want to tell, too. My dad was still in prison at this moment when my. My son was born.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:36] And because I was on the news in Salt Lake, he would be able to watch me. And the inmates watched me. And they knew that I was my father's daughter. And they knew that I was pregnant, and they knew. So they knew that my dad was gonna have a grandson soon.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:56] And when I had the baby and they learned that he was in the NICU and he wasn't. Okay. All of the inmates gathered in their prayers and would pray for me and my son. And even when my dad wasn't there, his friends would tell me they would all gather and pray for us. And that's a gesture too, that I never will forget and I'm really grateful for. In fact, one inmate also sent me a knitted beanie for my son that he made on prison.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:30] So just again, crime is complex, you know, but, yeah, I reported for another year with my son. Things got really hard. And then finally it was the Las Vegas shooting. I had to work there. That was really hard. I had a three month old. I thought, what am I doing? This is getting difficult. John said, just quit, be a full time mom and I'll take it over for a while and then we'll figure this out. So right after we decided that it was 2019 and things were good for a while, and then the pandemic hit and all of a sudden all the prisons closed and John was already getting very little work in St.

Lauren Matthias [00:55:12] George and I didn't have work. And we thought, oh my gosh, what do we do? And while I had quit, it was the end of 2019, and I'm having a hard time with motherhood. That's something people didn't tell me either, like, how hard that was. Like, all of a sudden, I have no time. It was so much harder than I thought. And I had my first at 37.

Lauren Matthias [00:55:46] And so I'm sitting and taking care of a colic baby all the time and just. It's hard. And the AP wire comes across and I notice a story that caught my eye. It was the day it came down of a beautiful missing couple, or half of a beautiful missing couple. Lori Vala was beautiful.

Lauren Matthias [00:56:11] And Chad Daybell, sorry, Chad, next to her was next to her. And they said that the couple was missing. And she was from Arizona. And she was like, looked like every one of my friend's mothers growing up. And this guy Chad's from East Idaho and is an author, a Deseret book author.

Lauren Matthias [00:56:42] And they're missing, and two children are missing, and they need help finding both the children and the couple. And I'm like. And I knew news enough. I'm like, this is not good. What is this? What is this? And I stared at it. And John and I would talk a lot about crime. And again, like, you know, I can quit the journalism job, but I can't quit journalism.

Lauren Matthias [00:57:07] So at that moment, I went digging. I joined my first true crime Facebook group. I jumped on YouTube to find everything I could about Chattanooga. And I downloaded videos, like, before they disappeared. I was just like, there's something about this. I wasn't working. I was just like, this is Big and I gotta figure this out. Downloaded videos of, like, Chad Dabel's family videos.

Mindy Caldwell [00:57:34] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:57:34] Like, things that are Chad Dabel speaking or.

Mindy Caldwell [00:57:38] So things related to the missing case, but just stuff that had been posted about them that you could find previously about their lives. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:57:48] Yeah, just. I guess it was like the journalist in me, I knew that those things go away. And so I was just, like, frantically looking and, like, saving things. I just. It was just like, in me, I was like, just get it before it disappears. Like, I know how things disappear about people once they're in the news. And so I was just downloading videos and all of these things and saving them. It was like.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:10] I don't know. I just knew. And I started asking John about it. He's like, yeah, that doesn't look good. Like, we just knew. It didn't look good from the beginning. And I was going on Kay Woodcock's Facebook page and seeing that she was like, help. You know, my.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:23] You know, my grandson JJ's missing. Tyler Ryan is missing, and the kids were beautiful. I was like, what is going on? And so, I mean, it's just funny that I'm gonna say. And six years later, here I am, just finished.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:41] I didn't know that it would go. I did not know that this moment. No one could have told me that this moment would go on for six years. I just concluded Lori's third trial in Arizona and the fourth trial of this case just weeks ago, you know, six years later. But that was.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:05] I've never been the same since. Like. Like, I. It was right after that. I remember it was Christmas 2019. So I just learned. It was decided, like, a week after I was already in the rabbit hole, which I didn't know was about. Until that it was about to become a crater. And my dad comes for Christmas, and I discover a video of Julie Rowe on. On YouTube. I had never heard of Julie Rowe. I didn't know who Julie Rowe was. I didn't know about the prepper community in Idaho. I didn't know.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:37] I didn't know about prepper conferences. I didn't know. Know that there were books that people were reading that weren't sold at Deseret. Book. I didn't know about all this energy healing that was, you know, taking on this. These Mormon roots. I didn't know. And near death experiences and near death experience books. I didn't know any of this. I didn't know about a vow.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:03] But Julie Rowe, like, a week after I learned about the kids speaking on YouTube saying, I talked to angels, and Tammy Davil has visited me. And I knew she was gonna die because there was two dead spouses as well.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:22] I couldn't believe it. I played it for my dad. I was like, listen to this. And he's like, what in the world is this? And then some people are like, you don't know about Julie Rowe. I was like, no, I don't know about Julie Rowe. No, I didn't know about any of this. Like, I feel embarrassed to say that you knew. Like, you knew about it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:00:41] I mean, I did because of my own personal family experience. But, yeah, like, Julie Rowe had caused a lot of. A lot of turmoil in my family at that point. You know, we had some real issues in, like, the 201415 era with her prophecies that didn't come true. And, yeah, so I was aware of her. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:01:03] I was gonna joke, if you hadn't been so busy working in Boise, you would have been watching Mormon Stories where we covered Julie Rowe in 2015 and Deborah Snuffer in 2013.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:13] I know, right? In all of my reporting, I never learned about Julie Rowe. I never knew any of this. And I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I don't even, like. I don't even know how to, like, process it with us all right now. Like, I don't even. And, oh, my gosh. Like, yeah, I had no idea. And John and I had actually already thought about starting a true crime podcast at that point, because we were still talking about crime every day.

The Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell Investigation Begins

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Were y' all into podcasts?

Lauren Matthias [01:01:45] We were into crime. No, we weren't into podcast. We were into crime.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] But, yeah, I was just wondering what gave you the idea for a podcast,

Lauren Matthias [01:01:52] because all we would do is talk about crime, and. Well, like, what do you do with that? You make it a podcast. Like, he was about to go on TV or, like, yeah, YouTube. Like, we didn't know about YouTube. Like, YouTube videos. But what do you do if all you do is talk about crime? You record it. Where do you put that? What does that become? A podcast. So. And you know what? I had had podcasting experience. I guess you could say that. You know that, so.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] Oh, that's right.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:22] Yeah, we would just. We conversed about crime all the time when it came to just, like, understanding human beings and the world. And I would always ask him my questions, just like I did that first night I met him. Like, what about this? What about that? We actually thought we would start with Adam Dees, the story that I asked him about the first night we met. But after the Lori and Chad Daybell case happened, and I. I started getting so invested. I had so many questions for him that it was June 2020, the week the children's bodies were found, that I sat down, I was like, we've.

Lauren Matthias [01:03:00] We've got to do this, John. Like, let's just. He bought a couple of microphones off Amazon. The prisons were closed. Like, I wasn't working. I said, let's just. Let's just record. Let's just record. And I sat there and I asked him questions and I said, I want to understand Lori Valo. What is this? And he said, it's not time to talk about Lori Valo before you understand. Need to understand Lori Valo. You need to understand Chad Dabel. And for the next five episodes, it was all about Chad Dabel. And after that, we recorded that first episode. The children's bodies were found. So we re recorded a little bit, and we.

Lauren Matthias [01:03:39] We put it out into the universe. We had no idea what we were doing. Like, there was no plan. There was no business plan. There was no concept, except that, well, we did think of hidden true crime. Like the hidden motives. What lies hidden that people don't talk about. There's the dateline motives, which is like sex, money, drugs. And then there are the hidden motives, like what creates the criminal. What are they thinking? How does this happen? How do you get to the point where you dehumanize children to call them dark? How can you go from a family man to having two dead children in your yard?

Lauren Matthias [01:04:15] Do they believe this? Do they not? How do you. How are they interpreting, you know, this. This belief? There's so many questions. And when it comes to the Daybell case, like that, those are the ultimate hidden motives. And I think, for me, it was so personal, too, because here's this faith I love that I have remained loyal to and faithful to throughout years and years. Like, it's just my people. Like, at this point, it's. They're just. That's how I see it. Like, this is my people. This is my community. This is my blood. Like, this is my family. How does this happen in my faith?

Lauren Matthias [01:04:51] How is this happening? How does Julie Rowe happen? What is going on in East Idaho? And I felt some separation, like, oh, it's just East Idaho, you know, it's just. But the more I dug, the more I dug, the more I realized. Sorry, sorry. I mean.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:10] I mean, we get it, you know, East.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] East Idaho. What do you expect?

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:14] There's lovely people in East Idaho. It's a little bit more of a hotbed for some extreme beliefs and prepping.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:21] Yeah. Yeah. The more.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] Sorry, East Idaho.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:29] The more I dug into the case, and as we did these podcasts, people reached out to us. That's what happened.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:37] So how did you. First you said you put it out there, like on.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:42] So you just get an RSS feed and you put it out on Apple and Spotify. It's what John Dehlin did, too. Do you remember putting your first one into the RSS?

John Dehlin [01:05:50] Absolutely. 2005, baby.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] People don't even know what RSS is these days.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:55] So you just. But you. So you just post it to the Internet. Forgive my ignorance on this, but do you just, like, share it, like, on your social media profiles? Like, hey, we. I just wonder how that gets traction. You know, how do you put it on the. You said you joined a Facebook group.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:09] Yeah, I shared it on the Facebook group.

Mindy Caldwell [01:06:11] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:12] Hey, guys. We just, you know, me again, you know, I just. We just. My husband's a criminal psychologist, and we actually just posted an episode, and so I would share it. And I was in, at this point, probably like seven different Facebook groups about the case because I really was just trying to collect evidence anywhere I could. Because there would be people that knew the couples and they would. Knew Chad and Lori. And there was a neighbor saying, chad didn't do anything wrong. And there was a neighbor of Lori Valo. And you've Arizona and Idaho, and you've got Utah going on. You got Brandon Boudreau.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:43] That was a twist. So, yeah, I would put it on all of the Facebook groups, like, for anyone that's interested. And then I think people were just sharing it, right? And then people are just like, you guys gotta hear this. And then people were calling us, saying, like, look, this is incredible. You're helping us. Like, let me give you a little bit more info.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:03] Start getting tips, you start getting insiders. And.

Lauren Matthias [01:07:05] Yeah, because they're appreciative of what you're doing. And so, yeah, you start getting the tips and the info. And then later on, victims start reaching out or, you know, people close to the victims, the surviving victims, and they're saying, look, look, this is helping. Or, look, keep me anonymous. But I want to help you out with your analysis because you're helping me.

Lauren Matthias [01:07:28] And with it, too. We'd always leave something a little bit inspirational, too, in each episode, like about how to be better humans ourselves. So. So that's started going. And we were actually weren't even making money because we didn't even know how to make Money. Oh, no, we don't know how to make money. Yeah, we're just putting it out there. People are listening and it's like we're doing a service and we're come. You know, we're talking every week and we're putting together and you know, I'm staying, I'm pulling all nighters at it. It's just the two of us. I'm editing it all. So I'm staying up all night now.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:05] And they're getting. Each episode's getting a little bit more complex because my husband's like, well, we need to add this sound and explain this research study. It's getting more and more complex. We're getting into death anxiety. I'm learning about myself too, which is what it was about too. Like learning more about crime. Like when you learn about crime, you learn about yourself. That's what my, my husband always says. A better understanding of crime is a better understanding of yourself.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:30] Because again, crime is a part of what humanity is like. It's. It's. As long as, as long as humans have existed, so is crime. So has the worst, you know, cases against humanity.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] The Bible starts. The Old Testament starts with the crime.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:49] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:08:49] Cain kills Abel.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:50] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I think in order to.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] And then God kills everyone.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:59] Sorry, God kills. To really understand human beings, you have to understand crime. Like, why do humans do what they do? And do we all have a dark side? You know? You know, I think we might.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Oh, Abraham had to kill Isaac for a second.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:16] Well, that's. Yeah, I mean, right? I mean, there's so many crimes in the Bible.

John Dehlin [01:09:19] I'm sorry, I'll stop.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:20] So many crimes in religion. So many crimes.

John Dehlin [01:09:23] And so that's fun to hear the birth of your podcast.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:28] Yeah, yeah. And so it just kept going and going and then, and then I. And then, you know, the prisons. We moved to Las Vegas. John had to go back to work because we weren't making money. And I kept going. I couldn't stop. And so then I started interviewing people. All these people were coming to me saying, you know, I'm ready to tell my side of the story. I knew Chad and Laurie. I was here when this happened. I was part of, you know, preparing a people. Let me tell you what I know and I've probably. Because some of the interviews are private, I've probably interviewed like, I have interviewed hundreds of people on this case and I've attended conferences.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:15] I went and attended a three day firm Expo conference to understand what's being taught. I've read books. I'VE read Dumver Snuffer. I've read Visions of Glory. I've read Chad Daybell's many, many books. I've. I've. It has been not just, you know, like a six year research project on a crime I can't get over, but a thesis on. On faith. On, like, on darkness. Like, how do you. On darkness.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] On, honestly, religious extremism.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:00] Religious extremism. And, and terrorism. I mean, really, this is terrorism. Right. When you mix politics with religion, you know, and, and belief and also understanding that these people hold my same faith, the only difference is that they interpret it differently than I do. And their interpretation is that children need to be killed.

John Dehlin [01:11:26] I mean, not just children.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:31] Yeah. And their spouses. And

Comparing High-Profile Mormon Missing Persons Cases

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:36] you talk in your outline about kind of the juxtaposition of the, like, Elizabeth Smart case and how that was handled and then when Tyler Ryan went missing. Do you want to talk about that for a little bit?

Lauren Matthias [01:11:49] Yeah. That upset me. So as I'm delving into this case and the more I learn about it, the more religious it is becoming. Like, this is a Mormon crime through and through. Every part of this permeates, like every part of the church. Like, this is a belief system.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:10] This is religion. This is, this is a cause. This is a movement. A movement. And it was such a confusing thing when it first began. You have JJ and Tyler that are still missing. JJ is seven. It's not yet baptized.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:34] He has two grandparents looking for him that aren't lds. But Tyler Ryan is in Young women's. She's very lds. She's. She is. Her family is lds. They're siblings. But I didn't understand why the church wasn't speaking out. Like, if this is my church and we are a flock and she is our sheep, why aren't we finding her together? Like, these are our children, are they not? Like, what are we doing? And I remember the church was clearly their PR move was to just not speak and say we are separate from these people, to distance themselves. And that's maybe easy to do. Yeah. You don't want to be, you know, part of what maybe, you know, might be happening here.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:30] But Chad Dabel was an LDS author that used to have his book sold in Deseret book. And Tyler Ryan is a little girl that is missing. And to think about the difference of when Elizabeth Smart went missing and we, we came together in a prayer meeting that night and we were again like her flock looking for. She was, she was ours. She was everybody's. And we, the church, our ward became the headquarters for nightly press conferences. Every night she was missing. I got called by my parents when she was found. And here's Tyler Ryan, and it's crickets.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:09] And the church is being called by the news, and they're like, this has nothing to do with us. Does Tyler Ryan have nothing to do with you? Okay, let's get rid of Lori Valo and Chad Dabel for a second. Even though they're attending one of your churches in Hawaii. Does Tyler Ryan, this missing girl, have nothing to do with you? Is she not one of ours? Like, what's. What's going on?

Lauren Matthias [01:14:36] Like, why are we not finding her? You know, jj, too. Jj too. But JJ also had his grandparents, like, looking desperately for him and, like, Tyler could have used, you know, some more. And just comparing it with Elizabeth Smart, that was hard for me.

Mindy Caldwell [01:14:55] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:56] To see. And. And then, of course, to find out, you know, we found out that she was, you know, cut up and burned in Chad Dayville's yard was even harder to find out. But that's upset me. Their silence has upset me. It's been six years, and they have stayed silent. And the more that I've uncovered and the more that we've learned, it becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. Like I said, it's not a rabbit hole. It's a crater.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:30] And this has. This has to do. It is permeating throughout the church. I got an email from a grandmother in Rexburg who said, lauren, help me. She said, we don't know what to believe. And none of the leaders are helping us.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:46] Like, please do the work for us. You know? She said, chad Dabel has bastardized our beliefs up here. Help me. Well, we don't know what to believe. That was her word. We don't know what to believe. And then you have Heather Daybell, you know, in an interview with me, saying, Dieter Uchtdorf came up to East Idaho, and I. And she thought they're absolutely coming up, because they clearly are. Like, let's go find out what's going on up there. And he doesn't mention anything at all.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:17] And she even said she's like, he knew my name. Like, her last name's Daybell. You know, nobody says anything. It's just this silence. And then, yeah, I made a joke, like, okay, maybe this is these Daidaho Mormons. Maybe this is their thing, the prepping industry.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:33] But as I kept digging and I read a book called Visions of Glory, it takes me to Salt Lake City and into the neighborhood I grew up in. This neighborhood. We just said, is Wonderful and worldly and educated and at the University of Utah and connected to the leadership of the church.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:54] And this is. This is everywhere. And again, nobody has said anything. And I remember even being here and saying, like, I remember our first two episodes, like, this is bad. Somebody say something. Somebody say something. It's gonna happen again.

The Ruby Franke Case and Copycat Patterns

Lauren Matthias [01:17:13] Somebody say something. And then what happens? Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt and two other children in Ivan's, Utah. And it is a literal copycat crime with the same group and the same belief system and the same books and the same base religion, which is Mormonism and the LDS faith and the exact same thing.

John Dehlin [01:17:42] And preparism and end times.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:44] And preparism and end times and the

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:47] belief that children can be possessed with evil spirits.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:52] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:54] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:55] And that. That second coming and those latter days are on their way. And if you look at Chad and demonic possessions, and if you go back to that 20002018 speech Chad Daybell gives the day he meets Lori Valo in St. George, Utah, he states, they're going to come through to Ivan's, and Ivan's is going to be a place. And here's Jody Hildebrandt building her mansion in Ivan's, her bunker here.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:19] Like.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:19] Like, this is a thing and nobody's saying anything. And this is not the faith that I recognize at all. And yet it's growing and it's bigger and it's bigger and this whole idea that normal is what one is accustomed to, right? And I thought that my little insular world and my little Schindler list watching young women's class was what was Mormonism is no longer Mormonism to me. I don't. I don't know what to think anymore.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:59] And I'm lost and I'm confused. And I think I've been processing it ever since. And I think another big thing that I've been processing, too, is magical thinking. And again, like, people that just interpret this differently than I do. These same beliefs, like, maybe.

Lauren Matthias [01:19:23] Maybe even having a belief in Christ isn't good. Maybe evidence and science and just skipping all magical thinking is the only way to go. Like, maybe. Maybe this, this hope that I put on this afterlife is one of the most unhealthy things there could be.

Lauren Matthias [01:19:47] Maybe, as my husband said in the first episode of our podcast, maybe what everybody's missing is the fact that what matters is right here and now in our mortality. And, like, looking and taking your son to Snow Canyon and looking out at the canyon and embracing this moment and saying, this is enough. Like, I have my Family like this is the moment, this is what matters.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:16] Not because as you know, that wasn't enough for Chad Dabel. Chad Dabel had to envision a new Jerusalem. Lori Valo has to envision the second Coming and how she's going to be a goddess and nobody's focusing on what's right in front of him and this life.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:35] And I think that's been my biggest lesson and my biggest transition in covering this case is is should we even be focusing on anything magical if this is what it turns into?

John Dehlin [01:20:54] Yeah. The, the simplest and most apparently benign Mormon and or religious beliefs are that like your feelings can be inspired by a divine source or by an evil spirit. Like just that. That the Holy Ghost or God can give you good feelings or give you ideas in your brain or that evil bad spirits can give you bad feelings and bad ideas. And that Jesus is coming soon and that, you know, and that the stakes are high. Just that. Just that as benign as those beliefs are, we're not attacking them. But that can be a recipe for catastrophe, right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:21:45] Yes, absolutely.

Lauren Matthias [01:21:47] Yes.

Mindy Caldwell [01:21:48] And I think just the lines get a little blurry. Right. Like I'm sorry to go back to Elizabeth Smart, but I'm thinking like Brian David Mitchell, his whole thing was about kind of like wacky Mormon based beliefs. But it's just so easy to label him as this, you know, crazy guy that wandered around Salt Lake. And I just think it's so easy, you know, and then we've got the Daybells and we've got, you know, Frankie and Hildebrandt and these other.

John Dehlin [01:22:14] And Tim Ballard.

Mindy Caldwell [01:22:15] And Tim Ballard and the Tim Ballard cases is a struggle for me because the church moved swiftly on that one and very publicly, you know, but only

John Dehlin [01:22:26] because one of their apostles was implicated in.

Mindy Caldwell [01:22:29] Exactly. I just think it's just, it's sad that that seems to be just a complete PR response in my opinion. Where these other cases deserve to get attention or mention or denunciation from the church with no response, you know. And so.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:48] Well, that's the one. The number one thing I value in our faith again is in my faith is that it's about our brothers and sisters. That's actually another thing I love about the LDS faith is that I was taught that everyone is my brother and sister. Like we are each other's brothers and sisters. We are to watch out for each other and take care of one another. I love that. And so to see us not do that because it doesn't look good because like we don't want to get involved like, really? So we're picking a PR stance over one another over, like, solving this and talking about it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:23:35] Yeah. Not to mention Visions of Glory and all that we've discussed with that.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:38] Yeah. Like I said, no Visions of Glory. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] I sent y' all and Megan the band. I sent y' all a Reddit post from yesterday. So we're talking July 1, 2025, and it's entitled BYU is raising the Next Generation of Criminals. And this is a BYU student in Provo yesterday. Right. And they say, you know, physically and mentally out. BYU student here. Just wanted to let everyone know that Visions of Glory is still actively recommended by BYU professors and FEL students. My professor spent a good 10 minutes talking about Visions of Glory and how interesting the book is. And afterwards I had to read someone else's discussion post about how much they love Visions of Glory and how wonderful of a book it is.

John Dehlin [01:24:26] That's in like the, you know, the canvas student assignments where they're all conversing about the lecture. Right. And so the students are also chiming in about how much they love Visions of Glory, like their BYU professor. And, you know, this just goes back to the idea of silence.

John Dehlin [01:24:45] If the church is silent on Tom Harrison, on Visions of Glory, on preparism, it's kind of complicit in these crimes. It is these lives being destroyed over and over, year after year after year. There's going to be new, you know, new crimes. Maybe. Hopefully not. Hopefully I'm wrong. But some people think that there's. There's more crimes to come because the Church won't denounce there will be. Or address.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:18] There will be.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] You think there will be?

Lauren Matthias [01:25:19] Oh, I'm. I'm in Facebook groups. I see the conversations. I see the YouTube videos of people talking about their children being possessed little three year olds because they're sick and. Yeah, there will be. There will be. And the Church. Yeah. Seems more concerned about, you know, progressive Mormons right now than the conservative extreme. Sorry, I don't mean like the extreme. Very extreme. Far.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:52] I'll say far right Mormons that are. That are, you know, sharing these really bizarre, unbelievable beliefs to me. But maybe that's something I've had to question too. Well, what makes a belief unbelievable? At what point is my belief unbelievable too, to somebody else? Are all beliefs unbelievable? If. If we're not just sticking to what's real, you know, I.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:21] Yeah, I. There are more crimes to come. There are. And it's scary. Yeah. And, you know, I think learning about the victims, I want to say this about the Laurie and Chad Daybell case has also taught me a lot.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:44] I really connected two of the victims, Tammy Daybell, Chad Daybell's wife, who was murdered. Both Laurie and Chad have been convicted of murdering her. I think about my life in my marriage when I. My first marriage when I was 33, and how lucky I was that I had had life experience ahead of me to sort of process what was going on.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:12] And with Tammy Daybell, she got married so young, and Chad was so young, and they were just. They were from the same town. They both came from good families. They hit the resume boxes for, like, a good, solid couple in marriage.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:26] And I do believe that Tammy Daybell was an emotionally abused woman from the very beginning. And I think that she was so young, and she didn't maybe have the tools in the tool belt that I had, that I think that could have been me or anyone.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:41] And also thinking about how our culture sort of allows this emotional, spiritual abuse to happen, too, and that nobody fully saw it or understood, it breaks my heart because everything I've learned about Tammy Davel, she was an incredible woman.

Lauren Matthias [01:28:01] And then Tylee, everybody, including her family, talks about and her own mother talks about how she was difficult. I've been labeled difficult. She was considered so difficult, she was finally labeled dark and a zombie. What Tylee did was speak her mind.

Lauren Matthias [01:28:23] I have been labeled difficult. I speak my mind. I actually am of the believer. Like, if you don't stand for something, you fall for anything. I learned that in young women's, like, thank you, seminary and young women's. I believe in that. If you don't stand for something, you fall for anything. I'll teach my son that.

Lauren Matthias [01:28:40] But, like, that makes me labeled difficult, too, by speaking my mind. And have even been labeled dark at times, you could say, in this case, and, you know, just being, you know, people that disagree or stand up or strong.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:00] So those kind of things, too, that I see in the culture and in our faith have also really affected me to the point where we dehumanized them completely, to the point where they're murdered. They're so dark, they're better off.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:16] We murder them. You know, slaveling of dark has been to dehumanize someone so much has affected me. So as I continued to cover this case, my little brother Jamie, and he was my youngest brother. He's the one, you know, we played Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with. He ended up in New York when I didn't, in Brooklyn. So I always joked that, look, you. You did. You did what the teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Did you made it to New York? I became April o'. Neil.

Grief, Family Loss, and Covering the Daybell Trial

Lauren Matthias [01:29:49] We were very close, and he was a big supporter in Hidden True Crime. He was really proud of me. And he was an entrepreneur himself.

Mindy Caldwell [01:29:54] He.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:57] He started Pleaser Dao. It was an NFT collective where they collected digital art. He even bought Wu Tang Clan's one and only copy of Once Upon a Time in Shillong. And he was just a very creative, special, fun, kind, warm individual. And so he was about to invest in Hidden True Crime.

Lauren Matthias [01:30:21] And I was preparing for Lori Valo's first trial. I was going to go. It was in Boise, Idaho, and it was March 2023. And I knew he was in the Dominican Republic. He'd just been in. He'd been in the New York Times. He'd been in Rolling Stone, and I had just. He had just been a part of some other article. And I wrote him and I said, I'm so proud of you. And he just wrote I love you.

Lauren Matthias [01:30:47] And the next day, I had learned that he was in a accident in the Dominican Republic and that it was really bad and it was a concern. And he had a severe traumatic brain injury. And then my brothers were flying to be with him, and we were. We were all working together to try to get, you know, surgery on his brain and life flights and jets and, you know, a surgeon to him.

Lauren Matthias [01:31:16] And it was really upsetting time. We didn't know if he was going to make it. And just as I was, I was just getting ready to go to this trial. I thought, should I go? Should I not? And I knew that he would want me to go. I knew he would say, go, Lauren. And my family was taking care of him. And so I went to Lori Vallow's trial just a week or two after his accident happened, getting updates. It was very difficult while also looking at the worst autopsy photos and trial that I had ever seen of two little children, JJ and Tylee, of Tammy Daybell.

Lauren Matthias [01:32:01] And in learning about once you're there at the trial, and I know Mindy, you came to. Part of was all about belief. It was all about these Mormon doctrines. It was to the point where the FBI was tracking when they went to the LDS temple, because they would go to the LDS temple right before the next murder. Like, this was so, you know, it

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:30] was, you know, they build it as the prosecution. You know, started out by saying it was about sex, power and money, which it was. But so I was surprised by having known the story, the backstory, knowing that it was very LDS influenced I wondered what the trial would look like, and it just ended up being so heavily LDS influenced as it needed to be in order to prove the case. So it was about sex, power, and money. But I was shocked by how much the LDS angle, you know, was presented in trial, including the location of the temple visits and many other messages with references to their LDS beliefs.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:16] While I understand why the prosecution would set the stage with sex, power, and money to sway a jury, I disagree with them.

Mindy Caldwell [01:33:24] Really.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:25] I don't think it was about sex, power, money. I think those, again, those are the dateline motives, but the hidden motives. What was really behind it all was this driving belief in this new Jerusalem, in this afterlife, in being gods and goddesses, in immortality and eternal love, and in power.

Mindy Caldwell [01:33:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:55] In some form of weird polygamy, right?

Lauren Matthias [01:33:57] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I finished up that trial, and the moment the trial finished, I flew with my son to Miami, where my brother now was in the ICU still. So the moment it finished, a dear friend came with me, too, and I.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:25] There was, like, a moment. I sat with my brother. I saw him in the hospital room for the first time, and I just started crying so hard. And initially, my first response would be to pray. I'm like, I need to pray. And I couldn't.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:47] So that was the moment where I realized something had changed in me. I didn't want to pray. Praying reminded me of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow and Julie Rowe, and I couldn't do it. I couldn't. So that was a moment. But I cried and cried, and I. And I spoke to him, and I think, yeah, that's what mattered to me again, was like connecting to him in that moment. This wasn't about.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:18] This was about the moment here, now, and he was still there. And to just speak to him and look at him and be with him, you know, so that was something. The next year, Boise again. I went back for Chad Daybell's trial, and for Chad Daybell's trial. My brother was now back in Salt Lake recovering. We were hoping he was recovering. He wasn't recovering much, but we were seeing glimpses of hope.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:51] You know, how long had it been at this point, from his accident time?

Lauren Matthias [01:35:57] A year.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:58] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:58] Because Chad and Lori's trials were a year apart.

Mindy Caldwell [01:36:00] That's right. Almost exactly a year apart, weren't they?

Lauren Matthias [01:36:03] And a year is when it matters. With a traumatic brain injury, a year is when they say, wait a year. Like, see what happens. You never know. Is he gonna wake up more? Just wait for a year. He wasn't brain dead at all. But, like, just wait. He was making eye contact and he was moving his hands, and so just wait a year. And so that year was when Chad Dabel's trial started. And a lot of Chad Daybell's trial, some of the evidence we'd seen, we had to go through the autopsy photos again and what happened and all of the text messages between Lori and Chad discussing, you know, children who are dark and zombies and possessed and his wife Tammy.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:50] And the biggest piece of new evidence in Chad Daybell's trial showing his manipulation was this patriarchal blessing that he gave to Laurie's brother, Alex Cox, telling Alex Cox his future, that he would save Minnie, that he was his. His sister's protector. What else? You were there this day, Mindy, sitting next to me.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:23] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:23] What was said in that patriarchal blessing? It was. And of course, Chad isn't a real patriarch, though. She's giving this quote unquote, patriarchal blessing.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:33] I don't remember so much what was said other, but what was more impactful, I think, to both of us was just how familiar it felt, just the cadence of his speaking and kind of that soft spoken, you know, there were promises given, there were hints as to Alex being a protector, you know, had taken on that protector role.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:57] He would know when to go to the other side.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:59] Yes, yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:59] He would save children. He would rescue children and carry them, you know, and protect people.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:04] He was a valiant spirit in this probation.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:09] So, yeah, I remember sitting next to you while it was being played. It was one of the most poignant moments for me in the trial because when I heard it, I almost like went in like a trance because like you just said, it was so familiar. He sounded like a patriarch.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:32] He did.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:32] Giving a patriarchal blessing. And I had heard this meek, soft voice before, this religious voice. It sounded not just like the patriarch that gave me my patriarchal blessing, but the men who have given me blessings, the elders who have been giving me blessings, the grandfather who gave me a blessing, the neighbor who gave me a blessing. There was no difference. And this meek, soft voice, I just listened sort of like. I don't know. I. Yeah, I felt. I don't know if a trance is the best word, but I almost felt like I was so enveloped in listening to this. And so it was so frightening to me to hear this familiar, just as this meek. There's just something about this meekness, this

Mindy Caldwell [01:39:17] false voice breaking emotion, when, you know,

Lauren Matthias [01:39:22] he's one of the most prideful men there is and he's got children buried in his backyard, you know, to have this meek voice. And we listened to it. It was long. It was like 15 minutes. And when Chad Daybell said amen, I said an audible amen in court. Do you remember that?

Mindy Caldwell [01:39:40] I do remember that.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] Was that just habit?

Lauren Matthias [01:39:42] I think I was so enveloped in the moment, and so, like, I can't believe this. I was feeling it with every piece of my body, like, I can't believe this. Yeah, it was habit, but I was, like, just so enveloped in the moment of, like, thinking about it. But I think that also shows, like, just how a habit, familiar it was. I couldn't believe I had said it out loud.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:05] It seemed like it just came out. I remember looking at you like, you said the inside part out loud, Lauren. And a few people, I think, kind of glanced over and the moment passed, but I was like, wow. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:18] Yeah. And I think that was a moment for me when I realized I will never have a man bless me again, ever. I will bless myself. I can bless myself if I ever want a blessing. But after that moment, to see or feel the power that this man had over Alex Cox in that moment and in the courtroom and me in that moment, too, saying amen, like, I will never let a man lay his hands on me again and give me a blessing and have that sort of power over me ever again.

Mindy Caldwell [01:41:00] So. Wow.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:05] Yeah. And then, you know, this year, maybe fast forwarding a bit, Lori has another trial, and your brother's story.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:17] Reaches a conclusion of sorts.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:19] Yeah. Yeah. So Laurie has another trial. This is the crime. This is the case that never ends.

John Dehlin [01:41:31] It's worth noting, I'll just say this. It's worth noting that this isn't the only story you cover. Like, you've covered, I don't know, dozens and dozens of stories, and each one has so much detail. I am just always stunned by how quickly you're able to grasp the details, you and John, the details of a story, and how many facts you guys are able to keep in your brains

Mindy Caldwell [01:41:58] and all the FOIA docs and, you know, motions and interviews. And I agree, this isn't the first. This isn't the only case that you guys have really, really dug deep into. It's impressive.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:12] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:13] Because a lot in between these trials, you're building hidden true crime, YouTube channel and podcasts.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:18] Yeah. We're covering other cases.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] Experiencing phenomenal. I remember when you were at 10,000 view, 10,000 subscribers, and then 50, and then 100. I'm like, whoa, they're really taking off. I was definitely Cheering you guys on.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:30] Well, you helped us a lot. Mormon stories helped us a lot. So thank you. I appreciate that. Earlier this year, I actually came here because we were all talking about. Was it the documentary?

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:43] Yeah, it was the documentary on the Frankie Hildebrandt case.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:46] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:47] With the Kevin Frankie. The Hulu documentary. Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:50] Devil in the Family.

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:51] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:52] Is that the name of it?

John Dehlin [01:42:53] Mm.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:53] Yeah. So we were talking about the documentary and I was coming out here. My mom is on hospice and my brother was on hospice. And honestly, I would never wish this decision on a family ever. But we were making that sort of. That Terri Shivo shiver. Do you remember her decision?

Lauren Matthias [01:43:11] So many decisions to make. To have seven people on board to, you know, one moment someone's like, we've got to end this. While someone else is saying, let's try stem cells. He's a donor. So, you know, the going through all the. What do we donate? His heart, his lungs, his kidney. Like, can we. Can we not. Are we able to. And so.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:36] Yeah, I don't wish that upon anyone. I admire my siblings and my family that went through this, but he was on hospice at this moment, and I was here, I think, this chair. So just what. It was in March. This is March, and we were talking and my phone actually started blowing up. Our mid episode saying that he wasn't doing well, he had pneumonia.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:00] And then I saw that they were having a donor team come in to see if he qualified, because that matters too. And he did. And so we finished the episode and I was supposed to go home that night, but instead I. I went to St. Joseph where he was, and the donor team was taking him and they were going to find organs, and I. It was his time, so I never went home that night. And two days later, we surrounded him in the hospital. After they had found donors for his.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:34] After they found, you know, recipients. Thank you. After they found recipients for his organs and they removed his breathing tube and we held him and it took him like 45 minutes. And we. We encouraged him and we cheered him on and told him he could do it and, you know, just.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:56] Yeah. And then it was beautiful. They do a donor walk and they walked him out and, you know, honored him, you know, but we were with him when he died. And then we.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Not that it matters, but I think that was after the second trial.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:16] It was after the Laurie's second trial and before the third.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] That doesn't super matter, but.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:24] Yeah, no, no, it does matter. And his funeral was March 22nd. We had a funeral for a March 22nd. And so it was right before Laurie's third trial. And so I spoke and I read this quote, and I. And I want to read it because this is a big takeaway.

John Dehlin [01:45:50] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:51] From. So it's, you know, Carl Sagan, famous philosopher, famous atheist. You know, his wife, Andrew, and was also a philosopher, writer and producer. And after Carl died, she said this. And my brother loved the cosmos, so he even had a dog named Cosmo.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:21] And he. He always talked about the cosmos. And I know, and I don't know what he believed. In the end, he was not lds. And then he. He did not identify as lds, but, you know, I'll just read it.

Confronting Mortality and Evolving Personal Beliefs

Lauren Matthias [01:46:39] So in Ann asking about how her husband, Carl, an atheist, Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again. I don't ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But the great thing is that when we were together for nearly 20 years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting. The way he treated me and the way I treated him, the way we took care of each other and our family while he lived, that is so much more important than the idea that I will see him someday.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:23] I don't think that I will ever see Carl again, but I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos. And that was wonderful. Anne and I, I think that represents, I think, so much of where I am right now. After covering Laurie and Chad Dabel and Jody Hildebrandt and Ruby Franke, they sought refuge in illusions. They put more emphasis on the hereafter and the. The forever than they did in the right, in the mortal right now.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:06] And that, to me, was their biggest downfall. Like, rather than thinking of this moment, rather than they thought of the again, the new Jerusalem and being a God and goddess and the hereafter, to the point where this moment, their children's lives, didn't even matter because they would just go on to the next.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:30] Sort of like, oh, don't worry if you don't meet love in this lifelore and you can just meet your love in the next. And I'm not okay with that. What matters to me is not this imaginary man I might meet in the next life. It's loving John right here and now. It's loving my son right here and now.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:50] It's being in this moment is loving my brother. And being with one another. And I think that this fear of death I had when I was a child, like this need for a heaven and this fear, I think I've replaced it now with the idea of how precious it all is right now, that it is fleeting. I think that the other thing I've learned is how fearful human beings are. I've learned of this from crime. Like how fearful human beings are of change. We don't like change. We want things to be permanent. Our families need to be together forever. The church can't change or progress.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:32] Everything has to be permanent. But the truth is everything changes. Everything changes and everything is fleeting. And what matters is this moment. And I'm sort of finding that in my newfound faith in this time. So. So now you're asking, like, what do I believe? I don't. I don't know what I believe. Like, I think I still want to say that I'm a Christian, that I identify as a Christian because I believe in loving one another and in those Christian teachings. But I don't know who Christ is. I mean, he could be a savior. He could also be a covert narcissist. Like, I don't know. You know, I mean, I am the way, the truth and the life.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:15] That's pretty bold. Like, you know, But I believe in the metaphor and what he stands for and what he means, which is loving one another and not judging and being there and being with the sick and the homely and the lowly in heart. But I don't know. I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:35] So I don't know if I can be LDS and Christian and an agnostic at the same time, if that's okay. Because I also. I don't think I can ever, ever have the pride to say I know that there is a God. I don't know. I don't know if there's a hereafter.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:55] I hope there is. I don't. I think. I maybe think there isn't. I want there to be. So I think I'm humble enough to say I'm agnostic, but I would. I would never have the pride that Lori and Chad had to say that they know. I mean, even in Lori's most recent interview with Nate Eaton, she's saying that she knows. She knows the Savior. She knows she'll be exonerated.

Mindy Caldwell [01:51:23] She knows her kids are fine.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:24] She knows her kids are fine and

John Dehlin [01:51:26] happy and that Jesus is super happy with her.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:30] Jesus is super happy with her. But how different is this than saying that, you know, that God lives and you Know that you'll be with your family forever. We don't know. We hope. But I think you know, this is actually a quote that I wrote in my book, page 218 of my book about change.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:53] And I say the more we cling to our idealistic stories, the more likely we are to refuse to give them up. Because we might have to admit that we were wrong. We might have to admit that maybe our lives did not go according to plan. We might have to admit that maybe the complexity of our lives outstripped the simplicity of our illusions. I began to understand more deep, the more deeply I clung to my story, the more I refused to let it go in spite of the reality.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:20] So I just, I think that that's where I am, is sometimes we just have to admit that the complexity of our lives outstrip the simplicity of our illusions. And that is what Lori and Chad didn't do. That is what Jody and Ruby didn't do. And that is what many.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:38] Yeah. Refuse to do. And I think that that's a good place to be. So I think, you know, I am so to, like, where am I? What is my Mormon story? I am Mormon and I'm actually a proud Mormon. I'm proud to be lds. Like, this is my heritage. I just can't wake up tomorrow and not be Mormon. It's, it's an identity, it's a culture. It's something that has been really good in my life, you know, So, I mean, I don't know what the future looks like. I. Everything changes. I don't know where my life will lead or what will happen. But yeah, I'm a Christian, I'm lds, I'm agnostic.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:25] I want to be able to realize that the complexity of life outstrips any illusions I may have had and be open to change. So that's where I am.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] Beautiful. You just gave me a thought about Mormonism in the church I've never had before. And that's hard after 20, 30 years of doing this.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:49] Really?

John Dehlin [01:53:50] What if the church were called the Church of Jesus Christ of Present Day Saints?

Lauren Matthias [01:53:57] I could get behind that.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:58] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:00] Yeah, let's, let's do it. Let's start a petition.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] I mean, I'm just saying. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:05] What would happen?

John Dehlin [01:54:06] Imagine if, if a 300 billion dollar organization with allegedly 17 million members were spending every day on the present moment, making the present moment as good as possible for as many people as possible.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:23] Right. That would be beautiful.

Mindy Caldwell [01:54:24] I like that.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:26] Yeah, I love that.

John Dehlin [01:54:27] Yeah. You do mention at the end, it's worth Mentioning that we did our episode about the Mormon influence on Chad and Laurie Daybell. I think it was in 2021. And then the Ruby Franke and Jodi Hildebrandt stuff came out after that. And we covered the Visions of Glory stuff and other things. Our band, you know, our group with us three and Megan, have been some of my favorite episodes of all time. So you do mention child abuse in the church in your closing thoughts. Do you want to.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:10] Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I do. I think moving forward with Hidden True Crime, I think the other thing that I've uncovered through studying these LDS crimes is the rampant child abuse in the church. And that's been really hurtful to my heart. That's been really hard to process.

True Crime Journalism and Accountability in the Church

Lauren Matthias [01:55:33] And I'll say this to you, like, because I acknowledge that I'm LDS on my channel when talking about this stuff or that I have an LDS background, there are a lot of opinions on my bias. And some people call me an apologist.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:52] Some people think that, you know, I'm not hard enough on the church. Other people think that I'm too hard on the church. But I think that what I will always do, again, it's, it's a lesson, I brought it up already that I learned in young women's if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. Like, I will always stand for evidence. And I will never back away from what I am seeing. And what I am seeing a lot of is abuse in this faith I love and in this church I love. And it is something that I want to keep uncovering. And I'll never, if I see it, I will never just look the other way. Like, I, I will, you know, move forward covering that. And I see that in the future with Hidden True Crime.

John Dehlin [01:56:52] Yeah. And I love, I love it that you're modeling the ambiguity and even the ambivalence of not having certainty but still recognizing the value of your community and your heritage. Because Mormonism, as I listen to your story now, I fully understand where you are. Like, there are so many points in your life where you were terrified, afraid your family was in turmoil, financial difficulties, needing hope and guidance or structure or community. And it just seems like the church, the Mormon Church, came through for you and in many instances for your family time and time and time again.

Lauren Matthias [01:57:48] You know, where it just came through recently, I've never. So with all of the upsetting things that was happening during studying the Lori and Chad Daybell, Keith for six years. And again, my little brother who told me before his death he did not identify as LDS or Mormon, that all of these people from my child of this community came back, which so many of them are still lds. And I didn't know how much it would mean to me to have that community come back. Sort of like with George's funeral, like, like it made me so grateful at that moment on March 22, to be surrounded by these people I love in this village and so, so grateful for this.

Lauren Matthias [01:58:36] Yeah. The heritage in this village that I loved, I was so grateful for that on my, my brother's funeral day, I just didn't know how much it would mean to me and how much I needed that. So. And for my little boy, people wondering I was his sunbeams teacher. I loved being a sunbeams teacher because I could teach him about all those good parts. I still try to take him sometimes and encourage him, but I'll let him lead the way there. He doesn't always want to go, so we'll see.

Mindy Caldwell [01:59:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:14] And how's the channel and what's the future of the channel? If you've got any thoughts about the

Lauren Matthias [01:59:20] future, the future of Hidden True Crime looks good. We are covering numerous crimes. We don't just cover LDS crimes. In fact, it's nice to, maybe it's nice to have a bit of a break, honestly, from it's heavy. So. But crimes are always hard and they're always sad. And we try to cover crimes where we feel we can bring value to the case, where we can benefit it in some way in discussing or analyzing or processing those hidden motives. And we will continue to do that on our podcast and YouTube channel.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] I also have to say that when I think about the arc of your story where you're about to peak in Milwaukee, right. And you're thinking that's my big break and that could really make or break you. Right. I can guarantee you there's been dozens and dozens of correspondence in mid markets like Milwaukee that we have never heard from and we will never heard from. But your decision, courageous decision with Dr. John to pursue Hidden True Crime has led you to be on how many nationwide documentaries, Hulu specials, HBO specials, Netflix specials like the visibility. Well, the reach y' all have had, the impact y' all have had and the visibility that you've had, it all paid off like it's a real, I don't want to say rags to riches, but riches to rags to riches. Real success story. And I'm just so delighted it couldn't happen to a better person. Am I wrong?

Mindy Caldwell [02:01:03] Minnie I totally agree. And I just think the combination of you and Dr. John and what you each bring to your channel is just so special. It's like lightning in a bottle. Right. And I think that's why you've been so successful, because, you know, sometimes you'll take the lead on the things that you're really strong and great at, and then he jumps in with his knowledge and expertise and maybe shies away from the things that maybe you're more comfortable with and vice versa.

Mindy Caldwell [02:01:31] And I love to follow your channel and to see how many times in the comments will something get covered or a breaking news point, and your hidden gems and your followers will be like, I can't wait to hear what Dr. John has to say about this. You know, it's just such an interesting and valuable combination.

Mindy Caldwell [02:01:51] And separately, you're amazing, but together, it's just. It's really special. And I'm not surprised that, you know, that You've grown so much, and I really look forward to what's to come for you. I'm glad that the Day Bell chapter hopefully is coming to an end. It's taken up a lot, you know, a lot of our. And by choice, I chose to follow that case. It had special interest for me, but I'm like, yeah, moving on. Right. And with so much, you know, love and support for the victims and their families, and you never want to lose sight of that in these types of cases that you follow.

Mindy Caldwell [02:02:29] But. But, yeah, I look forward to what's to come for you as a team and. And with your channel. And thank you. We'll continue to support you.

Lauren Matthias [02:02:37] Thank you. So in other words, yeah, John was right when he said, don't move to Milwaukee, you know?

John Dehlin [02:02:44] Dr. John.

Lauren Matthias [02:02:45] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:02:46] Hi, John.

Lauren Matthias [02:02:46] Yeah, not you. Yeah, Dr. John was right. So, yeah, feels good.

John Dehlin [02:02:53] Beautiful. And the only other last thing I'll say is that, like, people tell me, man, John, you work hard all the time. I guarantee you work harder than me. You work really hard.

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:04] You are one of the hardest working people I have ever witnessed.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] Absolutely.

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:07] You know, seeing you up in Idaho at those trials, and you were so gracious to allow me to stay with your friend. And just, like, seeing you behind the scenes, I'm, like, dying to lay on the couch. And I'm not taking notes and preparing things. I'm just. Yeah, yeah, you're a hard worker, Lauren, but take care of yourself, too. And heck, yeah, you know, seems like you've, you know yourself and, you know,

Lauren Matthias [02:03:30] your balance, but no, thank you. Yeah, no, I'm still working on work life balance. Growing a business is hard, but I hope, I hope that I can get to a place where things can balance out. But yeah, right now it is a, it's a growing business and it's very busy and exhausting. So hopefully that'll be the next step is figuring out how to maybe slow down a little bit more and be in that present moment, you know, be with my son and John and just

John Dehlin [02:04:01] so remind people how they can follow and support you guys one last time.

Closing Thoughts and How to Follow Lauren's Work

Lauren Matthias [02:04:06] You can find us on YouTube at Hidden True Crime or subscribe. Subscribe. Subscribing is always the biggest help. If you could subscribe, it's free to do or on our podcast platform you can subscribe. It's also free to do Spotify, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Apple, anywhere. You listen to your podcasts and leave us a review too. An Apple review, a five star Apple review. That's a huge help. Patreon.com hidden true crime. That is a monthly membership to support us, but you get bonus episodes every week. Behind the scenes episodes of John and I just discussing what's going on and then. Yeah, buy your book.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] Buy your book.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:46] You can get my book show one last time if interested.

John Dehlin [02:04:49] Tell them the name.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:51] Escaping emotional abuse, Healing journey. Yeah. This is the first time I've ever like promoted it.

Mindy Caldwell [02:05:00] Am I getting a memory of Dr. John wanting to write a book or is that your Dr. John wants to. I'm remembering that your Dr. John was working on a book at one point. Right?

Lauren Matthias [02:05:12] Yes, I think he's, he's still working on the book.

Mindy Caldwell [02:05:15] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:15] Yeah. That's still in the works to an agent. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:05:17] Right, Nice. Oh, good.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:19] Yeah. So things are good and yeah, we'll see. Like I said, everything changes. We'll see where the future takes us. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:28] Well, thanks, Lauren Matthias, for coming on Mormon Stories and telling us your epic Mormon story.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:36] You're welcome. Well, yeah, it was not over. It's not over.

John Dehlin [02:05:40] Well, it was well worth the wait. Yeah, it was phenomenal. And Mindy Caldwell, thanks for coming back.

Mindy Caldwell [02:05:46] You're welcome. Always a pleasure to be here. And yeah, I'm always surprised by how quickly the time goes. Even though I know we've been here for hours, but I've been waiting for your Mormon story for a long time. You know, I've seen, seen people question after and after, what does Morton Lauren believe? What is her? You know, and, and so this has been enlightening and really educational and makes me feel like I know you a lot better and I appreciate that. Thank you. So thank you for being here and for sharing your story.

Lauren Matthias [02:06:18] Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for listening for so long. You know what prepared us for this was we were children that went to three hour church.

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:26] That's a flex.

John Dehlin [02:06:29] How about eight to ten hours of general conference? And that too in a weekend?

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:35] Always.

John Dehlin [02:06:37] All right, well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. Huge thanks to Brooklyn and Julia and Grayson for all the help with these two episodes. Have to thank our donors that make all this possible. A small percentage of our revenue comes from ads. We don't do product placements or endorsements.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] It's donors that make all this possible. So if you're a donor, thank you for making this happen. If we lose donors every month, 10, 20 donors a month drop off. If we don't replace them, we have to cut back. So if you value this type of content and you want to see continue support hidden True crime and consider supporting Mormon Stories podcast by going to MormonStories.org, clicking on the donate button, becoming a monthly donor. You can also subscribe to us on YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and Spotify and Apple podcasts. The positive reviews on Apple and Spotify always help.

John Dehlin [02:07:31] And just commenting is always super helpful. We will read all your comments. We'll delete the mean negative ones, but we'll do our best to respond to all the positive ones and we just love the conversation. Also, feel free to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if people want to email you with tips or ideas or feedback.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:53] Hidden truecrimeinfomail.com okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And thank you for giving us tips and info. We, we wish there were more of us so we could cover more crimes. But we are always so grateful for people that trust us with their tips and their stories and share what they know. And I want to do more interviews and more interviews in the coming years. I love interviews. There's a lot to learn from people's stories.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] Absolutely. All right, well, thanks again, Lauren. Thanks again, Mindy. Thanks to all of you. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks, Dr. John. Thanks, Megan. You take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.