Introducing the Documentary and Panelists

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's March 3, 2025 and we're so super excited for today's episode. A new documentary has come out on Hulu. It's a three part documentary on Ruby, Frankie, eight passengers. Kevin, Frankie, Sherry, you know, Frankie, the whole a passenger sort of story. And also Jody Hildebrandt. It is entitled Devil in the Family, the Fall of Ruby Frankie and anything. Of course, all of our viewers and listeners will know that whenever something of note comes out involving eight passengers and Jody Hildebrandt. We have to. What? We have to do what? We have to get the BEA back together. So we've got the band back together. We've got Lauren Johnson Matthias from hidden true crime YouTube channel and podcast. Hey, Lauren.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:01:02] Hey, how are you?

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Thanks for coming.

Megan Connor [00:01:04] Thanks.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:01:04] I'm glad to be here. I was saying we need to. We need to get a band name, but we'll. We'll maybe let any commenters or chat figure that out.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] Whatever you call the Righteous Zombies, what did you.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:01:13] Well, you guys were suggesting true crime something, and I was like, more likely I was thinking Righteous Zombies, you know, the Apocalypse, Avengers. But I. I don't know, I think we maybe. Maybe they have listeners have better ideas.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] Okay. So comment in the chat if you have suggestions. We're live streaming, so if y' all want to name the band, that's a pretty big honor to let our viewers and listeners name the band. But it's also appropriate. So if you got names for the band. We're getting the band back together again. Megan, hello. Is here. Her channel has many names. Third verse, Midlife revolution. Megan Connor. Welcome, Megan.

Megan Connor [00:01:49] Thanks for having me again.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Thanks for joining us.

Megan Connor [00:01:51] Yeah, you.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Your channel just passed 10,000. It did, right? Congratulations on that. Yeah.

Megan Connor [00:01:56] Yeah, it's exciting.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] Yeah. And then of course, my super sleuther bestie Mindy Caldwell's in the house. Hey, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:02:05] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] Thanks for joining us.

Mindy Caldwell [00:02:07] You're welcome. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] So glad to have you. Someone likes Righteous Zombies. So that's. We got at least one vote for Righteous Zombies. Okay, so this documentary is out. Before we jump into the documentary, I think it's kind of worth mentioning that there was another documentary that we didn't cover, weirdly. And Lauren, you and I are both in the documentary, right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:02:30] There was another one that came out before this that you and I. You were in. And I'm honored to have been in a documentary with you, an episode with you. But the Curious case of Jodi Hildebrandt. Right. We just skipped over that one. But you were in it, and I

John Dehlin [00:02:40] was in it, and that's on. That's on Max. Right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:02:43] That's on Max.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Why would we get so excited about other people's documentaries and not our own? Does that mean we're officially not narcissistic? Is that what it means?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:02:51] We have less of Jody in us and a little bit more of, like, you know, putting out, just maybe a little more Kevin.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] We're a little more Kevin than we are Ruby and Jody. Yeah, right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:03:00] Yeah. A little less Lori Valo. A little bit more. Yeah, whatever. I don't know, but I thought they did a great job.

Mindy Caldwell [00:03:05] It was wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] Yeah, it's a. It's a short. It's like 50 minutes. It's like less than an hour. Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:03:10] And Adam Paul Steed was in it, and he did an excellent job telling his story. And, yeah, it was. It was wild. I remember my family. I told my family to watch it, because that's how I'm gonna brag. I'm like, hey, you know, by the way, mom and dad, I'm gonna be on Max. And they're like, are we gonna get too scared? Is it too scary?

Mindy Caldwell [00:03:24] I.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:03:25] Well, it says it's about Mormon men who masturbate and then go to a LDS therapist, and then a Mormon mommy vlogger comes in. I think there's no intruders in this one. I think I. I think you can watch this.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] What could go wrong?

Megan Connor [00:03:41] There's no jump scares.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:03:42] You know, there's no jump scares. Right. So. So they watched it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] No, I was proud of it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:03:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] And also, there's. There's. At least. We are aware of at least two more documentaries coming out on.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:03:57] Yeah. Big streaming networks. Eight passengers.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Yeah. So this. You know, this is not the end. No, this is only the middle.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:04:05] This is the beginning. I would say.

Mindy Caldwell [00:04:07] Groundwork, as you said earlier, Lauren.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:04:09] Yeah. This is setting the stage, I think, with. I'm so glad that the. The Frankies came forward. I think this is setting the stage to help us understand everything that was happening. And, yes, two more. At least two more documentaries that I know of are in the works.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so for today, we're going to be covering all three episodes. We're going to kind of go into chronological order. We've all taken copious notes. Megan, you made a prediction about length, which is.

Megan Connor [00:04:38] My prediction is that this episode will last longer than the actual documentary content, which was about 2 hours and 30 minutes.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] But that's Fair, right? If we're going to be commenting on

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:04:47] this show, that's fair. I gave a bit of a deadline. I'm like, I've got a plan to catch. So we'll see. We'll.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] Lauren May, Peace. Out a little early.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:04:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Which I'm grumpy about. But I also understand.

Megan Connor [00:04:57] I do just want to say for me personally, this was a hard watch and I think I'm glad we're doing this episode because I think this can be a. We watched it so you don't have to. If it's too dark for you and you don't want to watch the full thing. But you can still get all the information. And there's a lot of new content in this documentary that we haven't seen before. There's a lot of. They. They released over a thousand hours of footage the family did so that the documentarians could use that. So there will be stuff in the documentary here that you've not seen on the news or anywhere else. But it is a hard watch. It was for me anyway. I don't know about you guys.

Mindy Caldwell [00:05:35] Definitely. Yeah, there were some pretty disturbing and formerly unseen things that we didn't see. I did, I did notice that those. It seems that those who have followed Eight Passengers from the beginning maybe were hoping for a little bit more. But I think for those that are newer to the story and you know, I described it to John earlier as kind of drinking from the fire hose. This story, the whole, you know, compilation of all the events. So I do think it's a. It's a good opportunity to learn about the story. And, and I think it's particularly important because it's has Kevin and Sherry and Chad and this is the first time I believe that they have done any like a long form media, you know, interviews or. Or testimonials about what happened.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:06:26] You're absolutely right to say that there might not be any jump scares, but it is frightening. Yeah, it is frightening in its own Right. And yeah, you're right. Trigger warnings.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] So, yeah, I think it's. Lauren, I think it's worth mentioning we've already kind of alluded to the fact that there's already been a few documentaries. I think it's interesting because originally there was kind of the ABC Tell Me if I'm Wrong kind of the Nightline ABC show.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:06:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] That I think I was in that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:06:51] You were in that.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] You were in that. You were in that too, right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:06:53] I wasn't in that.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Okay.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:06:54] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] And that was an original. Like let's get this out super quick.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:06:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] With ABC News.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:07:01] It was very newsy. It was very, this happened and this happened and this happened and this happened. Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] And my understanding from speaking with the producer, well, with two things is that that was the sort of quick Nightline thing, but then there was going to be another more extensive kind of 2020.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:07:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] Deep dive. Correct. And so I, the one thing I heard from the producer was that the Frankies were uncomfortable with my participation in that first episode. I think that might be just a combination of the fact that I'm demonized because I have the podcast and I've been excommunicated from the church. But also I think they were uncomfortable with how the church came off.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:07:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] When, you know, when I speak candidly about things like porn and masturbation, if I'm reflecting on that and this ties to today's episode. I was speculating at the time that masturbation and pornography was in any way really related to any of this because we didn't, I don't think at that point we had a lot of that information. So I was speculating that, that some of the stuff with Chad and some of the stuff with Kevin was likely due to issues around porn and masturbation. And, and what I knew about how Jody had dealt with people like Adam Paul Steed and others and the therapy

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:08:19] culture surrounding the LDS faith in men, I think is fair. You know, you, you have a, you have a doctorate, a PhD in this, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] Yeah, and what the, what the 2020 ABC producer told me also was that the Frankie family potentially, if I remember right, were uncomfortable that I made the claim that Jody Hildebrandt was one of the most popular referred to therapists along the Wasatch front. And what the producer told me was, was that I didn't have the evidence to back that up. And I'm like, yeah, I, I don't have stats of, you know, what Mormon bishops who, Mormon bishops referred people to. What I do have is, is I've talked to a lot of people. I've been covering this stuff for 20 years and I, you know, she was, Jody Hildebrandt was leading the was it LifeStar franchise in like Utah County.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:09:11] One of the chains, I believe, which meant that.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] And that was like the premier network for therapists going through porn and masturbation addiction. And so anyway, for all those reasons, my understanding was the Frankie family said no more John de Lynn and things we're involved with. So when the 2020, was it a two hour, two part series in 2020 came out. I was. I was cut from all that. And that's fine. I don't care. I just. If I can help, that's great. If not, that's great. But. But I think it was interesting because it was in the Sheri Frankie book, correct, where she dished and kind of criticized the 2020 experience. Right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:09:50] Yes. Yes. Well, I think.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:52] I want to say.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:09:52] I think you're on the right track.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] Tell me if I'm wrong.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:09:55] Yeah, no, I think you're on the right track. And then let's also say we're speculating. We. We are completely speculating here, but I do think you're on the right track. Speculating with evidence, but you're on the right track, because I did notice. I noticed how things are edited in documentaries. And I did note that one thing they brought up right away, as far as B roll goes in this documentary we're talking about, was that Jody was. She was punished. Right. So Sherry's Googling Jody's. She learns that Jody, you know, lost or her license was suspended for a time, and they showed a headline on the B roll that says that she was no longer part of the church's approved therapists. And I did think that was on purpose. Well, everything's on purpose in a documentary. These are filmmakers, these are artists. They don't put anything in there without reason. And so I denote that B roll there showing that. And I did think that that's maybe contradicted a little bit of what you emphasized, that, like, she was an LDS approved therapist. You emphasize that a lot. You, you, you. This, this, this. And they right away made it very clear that she was removed from the list, I think, after the Adam Paul Steed incident. And like I said, when you watch a documentary, everything has a purpose. These are artists making this film. So I always note the B roll that they use. Like, what are they trying to say with the B roll? And that was certainly a piece of B roll that was early on in the film.

The Mormon Angle on This Story

John Dehlin [00:11:23] And. And I think the value add of this band, the bit this, you know, is that we've all been Mormon, but we have a particular focus on the Mormon angle. And we think it's rare for a documentary produced by people in New York and California who have never been Mormon. It's rare for them to have knowledge about expertise and an insight about the Mormon experience. And it would be perfectly normal for the Frankie family to want to protect the Mormon Church. Right. Isn't that the most Mormon instinct of all?

Mindy Caldwell [00:11:53] Sure, definitely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] Yeah. So I'M not even, like, criticizing the Franke family for wanting to protect the church, but I do think it's interesting that almost immediately, you know, they're kind of criticizing the 2020 sort of the Nightline thing. But then several people emerged wanting to do documentaries, and there's this weird thing that happens behind the scenes. So as an example, several production companies say, we want to do documentaries.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:12:22] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] And, like, everybody wants Jesse, you know, Jesse Hildebrand, for example. People want you and John. Some people want me to. What's that?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:12:31] Adam Paul Steed. Everybody wants Adam Paul Steed. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] And then everybody wants any Frankie family, any of Ruby's sisters, any of Ruby's siblings, parents, and then anyone close to Jody.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:12:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] And then. And then the network start asking for exclusives.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:12:49] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] Because if you can get exclusives, then maybe you can have something that no one else has instead of it being repetitive stuff.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:12:58] Yeah. And they all want their different angle. Right?

John Dehlin [00:13:00] Yeah. And clearly the angle of this episode. Tell me if I'm right, you guys, add to it. It's the thousand hours of footage, which was important and insightful, but also they got exclusives on Sherry and Chad and Kevin.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:13:19] This was the family story.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:13:21] The curious case of Jody Hildebrandt was Adam Paul Steed. That was the angle. Focus on another gentleman and another gentleman,

Mindy Caldwell [00:13:27] which I felt was valuable, very valuable to get another insight that matched so similarly to Adam Paul Steed's experience. And of course, there's many others behind the scenes that you've interviewed. A few. I'm sure there's many that could share a similar story, but, you know, just haven't. Haven't had the opportunity. But I felt it was very important for that other gentleman. I wish I could remember his.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:13:48] I wish I could, too.

Mindy Caldwell [00:13:49] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:13:49] Forgive us.

Mindy Caldwell [00:13:50] Other gentlemen heard a lot from Adam, but to hear that story corroborated was interesting.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:13:55] It was. It was. And he did a great job. Yeah, we'll. We'll Google your name.

Mindy Caldwell [00:13:59] Yes. But.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:14:01] Yeah, but this. This documentary, which is why I actually think it is important. This was the family's documentary. And that happens with the daybell case, too. The daybell case went. There's so many. So many documentaries. A lot of people calling us. When the Netflix documentary came out by Sky Borgman, that was Colby's story. That was the moment for Colby to tell his story. This Hulu documentary was. Was what the Frankie said. This is the story we're going to tell. But I'm sure they had stipulations and. And things to do It. But that. I think that's why this is so important too, though, because as a true crime channel myself, it's very, very important to listen to the victims. And this is. And of course, Adam Paul Steed is also a victim, but this is the family. This is who it happened to in. We're paying attention and we're listening. But they absolutely have reason to control aspects of that and to say, we don't want this, we don't want this. We do want this. We don't want to, you know, we want to make this clear. And I think they definitely had a hand in that.

Money, Access, and Documentary Production

John Dehlin [00:14:57] I'll also say I heard that a seven figure sum was paid to the Frankie family for this exclusive. Now, I don't have. I've never seen a contract, but that wouldn't be ridiculous, right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:15:09] It would be ridiculous. They're handing over thousands of hours of footage that they created. Without them, there is no documentary. To however much money this documentary is going to bring in, it's because of their footage. So I do think that's fair. Yeah. I wasn't paid anything for the Curious Case of Jody Hildebrand.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] I guess I don't think I've ever been paid for any documentary. I've ever.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:15:35] I haven't either. As a news reporter. I think Dateline paid for my makeup once. But as a news reporter, I believe in documentaries because they think stories need to be told. And all they're asking me is for my own personal experience. And it's something I. I just want to be able to do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] Maybe the last thing that was unique about this one was they got neighbors. So there's like four or five neighbor couples and then one therapist that worked with Jody. And that was interesting to hear literal neighbors and. And their takes. So we'll get into that.

Mindy Caldwell [00:16:04] We spoke about the neighbors when we talked about Sherry's book, how critical they were. So I was very happy to see them on the documentary. In addition to the Heymans that we talked about so much with the book as well, who became surrogate parents for Sherry. I was happy to see them on the documentary. And their first names were Teresa and Rule. Yeah, I was happy to see them.

Megan Connor [00:16:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Okay, so that's some background that I think is going to be interesting. I, you know, and like we said, there's at least two more, really, I would say, well made documentaries based on the people I know who are involved. Two very good documentaries to come.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:16:47] I can say that as far as the two documentaries that are allegedly in the works, as you just said the people behind them are exceptional. So I agree, concur with John, that they will likely be exceptional documentaries and it'll go beyond what the family has shown us. But again, I'm glad we're talking about this because it is so important to hear exactly what happened and I'm very grateful that they are all participated and, and I'm grateful that they did this.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Yeah. Okay, really quickly, just because we've got some great comments coming in. Gail, Dedrick, thanks for the super chat. We always appreciate the super chats. They help fund what we do. Gail writes, first, I have to say it's like hanging out with friends. That's what they, that's what Gail thinks it's like to, to catch us on a live stream. Secondly, mark my words, there are other Jody's and Chads to come. Do we agree?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:17:44] And when you say Chad Chad Day, we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to differentiate that Chad Jody and Chad Daybells to come because we do have Chad Frankie in this. So we're gonna have to make that clear. But yes, I, I, I hope not. I hope not. But I, I worry about, that's the

Megan Connor [00:17:58] reason we keep talking about it is because that, that's what we all believe.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] Would we be happy if we were never part of a documentary again like this? I would, yes. Okay. We have a nomination for a band name. The Prophets of Distortion.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:18:16] I like that.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:17] That sort of has a guitar feel to it.

Megan Connor [00:18:19] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:18:19] Another one I thought of while sitting here. A big joke. A hidden True crime on our channel is the name of Jody Hildebrandt's book, which is you are Not Not Enough. And we think that double negative is just so funny to us that you are not not enough. And so I was thinking of the

Megan Connor [00:18:34] not not zombies or the We're not not dark.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:18:38] Yeah. The not not prophets. The not not distorted. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Someone else said Quorum of Four. Oh, Quorum of Four.

Megan Connor [00:18:46] I don't know if I like that.

Episode One Begins: Origins of Eight Passengers

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Okay, all right. This time we get into it. Okay, so let's jump in. We'll start with episode one. Oh, there will be spoilers. We're assuming that you've all gone and watched. So this is commentary after we're assuming you've all watched it. There are going to be some of you that would prefer, believe it or not, there's people that just are like, I'm not going to watch the documentary. I'll just want to hear the commentary. You're welcome as well. Episode one of the three episodes was called Abundance. And I'll start with just kind of what some of the drama early teaser footage is. Right.

Megan Connor [00:19:19] Well, before we go there, please.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Yeah, go ahead.

Megan Connor [00:19:22] Can we go to the talk that was given in 2007? Because I think this is really important, Set some context. Yes, I remember this talk very well. And actually there was a talk that was given by Apostle M. Russell Ballard in 2007, and it was given at a BYU commencement in December of 2007 where M. Russell Ballard called for the membership of the church to join the conversation on the Internet and for us to be the ones who are telling the story of the church, for us to be the ones that talk about our beliefs rather than allowing other people to make those comments for us. And subsequent to that talk, the talk was later paraphrased and then put into the Ensign magazine, which is the church magazine that all households are supposed to have on their coffee tables every month. You know, more commentary from the prophets and apostles of the church. And I specifically remember listening to this talk and sort of having a, oh, this is kind of fun with my sister thinking we should start a blog. Which we did. And it was very short lived because we decided to start a parenting blog called God is the Only Perfect Parent. And we wanted to use scriptural references to talk about how God deals with his children. And very quickly we got to this place where we were like, ooh, that's not very good parenting. Ooh, I don't like the way he handled that. So we very quickly ended it. But I just remember this being a moment where we were being given an admonition, I felt from the leadership to get online and show how LDS people, faithful LDS people, live their lives. And I don't know if either of you or any of you remember that same feeling around that time.

Mindy Caldwell [00:21:09] I remember the talk. I didn't feel ambitious enough to like create something that would go out into the world and try to convert people to the church. But I started a blog because I thought, you know, why not, why not just kind of highlight a few little things about my family and. But I very quickly became aware of feeling like I was faking a little bit. You know, I feeling like I was picking and choosing things I was posting on my blog. That gave me a little bit of an icky feeling, like I just don't think this is a true representation of how our lived experience at home really is. I mean, nothing crazy, but it just felt a little bit weird. And so I switched my blog from public to private. And so then, then I Just felt like I could be more real. But, yeah, I started a blog after that talk, too.

Megan Connor [00:21:56] Yeah, it's. It's interesting because it's sort of this overlap of the Internet, social media, and real life. And I think what we see a lot now online is a curated image of people's lives. And certainly I think eight passengers represented that for the first little while. But then it started to get a little bit more real. So it started. It's. It's interesting, the turn that it took from being sort of this perfect, loving, wonderful family to like, showing some of the. Some of the scars. And what was interesting to me was that Ruby didn't seem to think that some of the more problematic things were problematic. She seemed to think it was a feature of her parenting and not a bug.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:22:38] I think. I think it's just good to explain to the Gen Z. Sit down. Before, before TikTok and before Instagram and before Snapchat, Snapchat, there were Mormon mommy bloggers. And I think that's the generation we grew up in. The World Wide Web was new. We were already all writing in journals and sharing family memories. I was not married at this time. I was single, but I certainly was a journal writer. And I remember participating in blogging. And that was. That was what we all did. And we would follow blogs and share blogs, and that certainly evolved into, I think, the YouTube vloggers. That's where vloggers got its name, actually, is when blogs became videos. And I think that that sets the stage for when Ruby jumped on. I don't even blame her. I think it's. Yeah, this makes sense. This was the start of Mormon mommy vlogging.

Megan Connor [00:23:42] And back then, our cameras only had one pixel.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:23:47] Yeah, and I'll just say, because Mormon story started in 2005, and the podcast world, the Mormon podcast world, was quickly dominated by podcasters questioning or challenging Mormon history, Mormon doctrine, Mormon theology, Mormon culture. I think part of Ballard's response here is saying there's so much challenging our. Our doctrine, theology, history, and culture. We need to flood the Mormon space with more faithful stuff. And I think that was. Was also part of it as well. So let's go ahead and roll that first clip. As you graduate from this wonderful university, may I ask you to join the conversation by participating on the Internet, particularly

Mormon Mommy Blogging and Social Media Culture

Video Clip 1 [00:24:41] the new media, to share the gospel

Video Clip 1 [00:24:43] and explain in simple, clear terms the message of the restoration? Most of you already know that if you have access to the Internet, you can start a blog in minutes and begin sharing what you know to be true. Yeah. And I can also just add that the church would reach out to influencers and bring them, especially Mommy. And Margi doesn't like when I say Mommy. Why does Margi not like it when I say Mommy? I don't like.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:25:21] They were Mormon Mommy blog. They think that is the term. But I am so with Margi. You know what makes me angrier than anything? Driving past those billboards in Utah county that say Mommy makeover. I'm like, shut the. That is a medical procedure that could kill you. And you are. You are so patronizing by claiming to get mommy. So I'm with her. But in this, in this case, though, in this case, that is what they were called. And so I don't want to also diminish the fact that maybe it was patronizing, maybe this was. But they were called Mommy.

Megan Connor [00:25:52] Yeah, I mean, there's a bit of a connotation to that that, you know, the, the whole idea of I'm just a stay at home mom and that's my only value. And it's also not as valuable as a career or a real job, you know, so the mommy blogger. It's like, I'm not an intelligent woman teaching about parenting. I'm just a mommy vlogger.

Mindy Caldwell [00:26:12] There's like an innocence to the word mommy.

Megan Connor [00:26:14] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:26:14] Sort of. And maybe a little bit of patronizing.

Mindy Caldwell [00:26:16] And it's creepy.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:26:17] It's patronizing. It's a patronizing term. But yeah, that is what they were called.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] Okay.

Megan Connor [00:26:23] It's not like you came up with the term, right?

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Yeah, I try to check myself. So, yeah. So, yeah, so they, they would reach out to these influencers, bring them to downtown Salt Lake City, and like, I don't know if wine and dine them is the right term, but definitely say, you help us, we'll help you.

Megan Connor [00:26:41] Diet Coke and Dynam, I think, is the Mormon term. Diet Coke and Diet Coke and Dine.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Yeah. And also there was a time when the LDS Church loved the term Mormon and was embracing it. And this was all during that Meet the Mormons time where I'm a Mormon campaign.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:27:00] I still like the term Mormon. I don't even mean that negatively. I think it's a great term that it describes a lot. And I loved when they embraced it. But yeah, here we are.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Yeah. And all four of us still identify as Mormon even though we have different, maybe different relationships with the. The church.

Megan Connor [00:27:12] Yeah, we all have a different spectrum.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:27:14] Yeah, we're all on the Mormon spectrum. We all have different relationships with the church.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Okay, so that was Ballard's clip. And so that. That kind of set the stage in some ways, the church asked for. For this. So is I, as I were, if I were to describe kind of the intro to episode one. So here's just some of the things I wrote down that. That Sherry talks about Satan being a person, which I was excited to see. They were going to introduce that idea. They showed the one son and how abused and emaciated he was. They have Sherry saying that what Ruby did was psychotic and evil. They're showing bruises and ropes and handcuffs and scars. They're showing Jody getting grabbed away from the doorway of the house while she's on her cell phone and the police are there. And she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, that kind of thing. And again, a lot of focus on demons and devils and repentance. And then Kevin wanting to clear his name, you know, saying we were the perfect family. And then I wrote, but the devil knocked and we opened the door. And in my mind, that was immediately a lot of blame on. Go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [00:28:32] I'm sorry to interrupt you.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Please do.

Mindy Caldwell [00:28:34] I just feel like that sets the stage for this entire documentary in regard to Kevin. That was my perception. I just feel like he was laying the groundwork pretty early, that in many ways we were the perfect family. But the devil knocked and we opened the door. I feel like it's just shifting the blame of the really dark things happening on Jody, which I think is fair in some ways. And we'll get into getting into why it's not so cut and dry, in my opinion.

Megan Connor [00:29:02] Agreed.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:29:03] Yeah, I agree. I do have empathy for Kevin through this. I agree. There was the before and the after. He did take some responsibility, I feel like later on. But I do want to say this. You know, there's this. There's. It was Dr. Martha Stout that said this in her book the Sociopath Next Door, but she said the devil doesn't come dressed in. Doesn't come dressed in a cape. And spiky, you know, wearing spiky. You know, they come dressed as everything you've hoped for. And I think so often that's a really important thing to point out when it comes to cults or abusive marriages or abusive relationships is people don't see a devil in front of them or an abuser in front of them. They see everything they've ever wanted and a wonderful person wearing a mask. And so while I agree he is deflecting responsibility in this moment and everyone points that out, I do agree. I do agree. I also want to Point out that this is how people get into abusive relationships. And it does drive me crazy when people think that they should have seen it. I do want to point out that nobody gets into an abusive relationship or into a cult because something looks scary. It dresses everything they've ever wanted. The devil knocked, the door opened. I think it is a metaphor for an abusive relationship. But I do also agree that is deflection on Kevin's part.

Megan Connor [00:30:30] I think it is, too. And I think it's also important to just like, let's just go ahead and shut down any victim blaming for the whole thing. You know, I really. I think a lot of people have been really, really hard on Kevin, and I do think that he did act irresponsibly in some respects. I do also see him as a victim of abuse, however. And so, you know, as a survivor myself, there were things that I did that I wasn't proud of when I was in survival mode, you know, and one of the first things that they told me in therapy was that you have to forgive yourself for what you did when you were in survival mode. You. You did what you had to do to survive that time. So I do. I am critical of some of the things that Kevin did because as a parent, you know, your kids come first. But at the end of the day, he was. He was a part of the. The victimization as well. And I think we have to keep that in mind as we talk about anything that he said or did during that time.

Mindy Caldwell [00:31:23] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:31:24] And then just to say what you're saying, Mindy, going back to your point, there was clearly abuse happening in this family before she showed up. And that's your point.

Mindy Caldwell [00:31:33] Yeah, that is my point.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] So thanks to Vala when she says my favorite YouTube together, she's. She's loving the band. And so thanks for that comment. We have a comment from Lee. Important topic to cover, not for the entertainment of it, but I shiver for victims still out there. Thanks all. And I have to always remind myself that I get so wrapped up in these stories that I sometimes don't check my affect. Right. So that's a thank you for that reminder. Jenny just makes the comment. Did everyone else laugh at the combination for the safe being 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6? That's obviously later on in part three, but I wanted to.

Mindy Caldwell [00:32:19] That safe wasn't intended for. There wasn't a fear for somebody to get in the safe. It was. It was just to keep. Keep someone inside the safe. Not so much cracking it from the outside.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:32:30] It was just shows how Predictable. Jody Hildebrand is.

Megan Connor [00:32:32] Yep.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:32:33] Snooze fast. One, two, three.

Megan Connor [00:32:35] Yeah, well, she probably just left it on the default of. That's how it came.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] Right.

Megan Connor [00:32:39] And she probably just never reset it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:32:41] Yeah, we'll get to that.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] And then finally, Marta writes, the Mormon Church was not cast in a good light. Do we know if Ruby was ever paid by the church? And I would be speculating.

Megan Connor [00:32:52] Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've. I've of course heard the same rumors that you guys have heard about, you know, different arms of different media branches of the church, you know, supplementing people's podcasts out there if they're friendly to the church and things like that. But all I have is, you know, rumors and speculation. I don't have receipts on any of that.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] So what I can say is there's soft payment in addition to hard payment.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:33:14] Yeah, no, that's what I've heard too. Just like any advertiser, the church is interested in, you know, advertising.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] They'll give you access to their well. And what I'm also saying. Go ahead.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:33:26] No, yeah, no, say advertising. Promoting what? However you want to call it, go ahead. No, you go ahead. You know more about this than I do.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] The church will pay people. Like, if I don't know, David Archuleta sings with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the Christmas concert. He'll likely get paid for it. But there are things the church can do that's kind of soft currency, whether it's meetings with general authorities or apostles Meet the Prophet, exclusive invites to screenings of movies or of entertainment media kind of things. Links opportunities with Deseret Book for book deals, you know, and even behind the scenes favors like obviously, the Mormon Church currently, for those who don't know, in 2025, is worth close to $300 billion. That's billion with a B. So there's just a lot of money and power such that if you need a favor and you're in good graces with the top leadership, as Tim Ballard showed us, very well, you can make a call on some of these top church leaders and they will help you in any way you need help. So anyway, we're speculating, but that's kind of how wealthy, powerful organizations work. So anyway, also at the beginning of episode one, they introduce the neighbors. So there's Jared and Sydney Condi. I may have got these couples wrong. Kristen and Grant Collard, who I know. So the. The Collards lived next door to the left. If you're looking at the. The Frankie home in Springville which Kevin still lives in. As I understand it. The home exactly to the left is where Grant and Kristen Collard lived. They've since moved out. And my. My good friends Clinton Jenny, Martin, Clint's on the board of the Open Stories Foundation. He moved into that house. So my friend Clint, my friends Clint, Jenny now live in the Collards house. And I think that' Pollard's actually did the interview from but total next door neighbors. And I. I've been told that Kevin was suspicious that Clinton Jenny moved there to be my spies. But really. But really Clinton Jenny lived down the street. They moved away and then they moved back. And they just loved the Collards house because it's a gorgeous house. And by the way, this is a very affluent neighborhood. Neighborhood. But anyway.

Mindy Caldwell [00:35:54] And the Collards even said people here in Springville, in Happy Valley, they don't move. They house hop. That was a quote from.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] They totally do.

Mindy Caldwell [00:36:01] Yeah. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] So it was interesting. It was fun to see the Collards there. I don't want to out where they are with the church, but they have a perspective that I'm familiar with. I'll just say that there was Matthew and Lisa McLean and should I share the message I got from Lisa? It was so weird. Lisa texted me this weekend and it was like, John, you should have tried to reach out to people that actually knew the Frankie's family. The Frankie family. Because it would make your podcast more credible. I'm like, I don't know you McLean's. How would I have known to reach out to you? I don't know you. And I didn't. Certainly didn't know you were friends with the Frankies. Like, yeah, I would have loved to have the neighbors of. Of the Frankie family on Mormon Stories podcast. So it was kind of a weird call out. But. But Lisa and Matthew, if y' all want to come on Mormon Stories red carpet, welcome. Same with the Collards of the Condies. We'll have anyone. But that was just a weird call out, you know. Anyway.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:37:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] And then they had Brandon Patrick who worked with Jody and I thought that was a really valuable addition.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:37:14] I. I liked hearing from him. I'm grateful they had him as a voice to work with her to be a therapist to see what he sees in the community. He was a great addition to narrate.

Mindy Caldwell [00:37:26] I agree on the professional end of things. The professional side of things. I thought he provided some great insight.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:37:34] Yeah. And you just pointed out these are all people we haven't heard from. As you, as you just pointed out, John, like We don't know about these people. We did not know about these people.

Mindy Caldwell [00:37:40] They were new to all of us.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:37:41] They're new to all of us. And I thought it was so valuable to have all of their voices. Like I said, this is why we're talking about this documentary. And the other was like, this is new territory. This is fascinating. Thank you for speaking out, neighbors.

Megan Connor [00:37:53] Yeah. I was super grateful to have Brandon Patrick's commentary because he actually was shadowing Jody Hildebrandt and he sort of saw this part of her evolution. Granted, he didn't know her early on in her career, prior to her license suspension or anything, but it was really interesting to have his perspective as a therapist who could recognize some of the things that were going awry as they were happening.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] Yeah. So the next thing that I have in my notes, and y' all jump in, and this is in some ways out of the timeline because they go back in history, but let's just hit it, because I. You don't want to miss it is this behind the scene footage of Ruby doing multiple takes for her videos. And right at the very beginning, they mentioned the thousand hours of unseen footage, which all of us would love to see. We wonder what they left on the cutting room floor.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:38:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] But this. This idea of, like, Ruby just, you know, on the one hand, let me just start with humility and grace. How many of us would want our moments with our children. All of our moments with our children filmed and shared on the Internet? Are. Have any. Is there any of us here who have not had moments that we would be embarrassed to have shared on the Internet?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:39:11] Oh, I'm good. I'm good. I am, like, I definitely.

Megan Connor [00:39:14] Yeah, especially. Especially my ear. My early parenting years, I definitely would not have wanted. But Ruby chose to do it. I mean, she was the one putting it out there.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:39:23] So there was a moment, actually, when we had just started Hidden True Crime, where, you know, it's hard to do a podcast with your spouse and a young child because you're trying to, like, get babysitters or get your child to be comfortable. You're both in there. We had a young child, and there was a moment where we put him in front of the TV with some popcorn. And I said, do not come in unless there's an emergency. Do not. And he was like four. And I'm in. We go from separate rooms, and I'm in my room and John's in his room. And I get a knock on the door and someone coming in, and I turn around and I thought, I Put it on mute. And I looked at him. But I put my husband's microphone on mute, not mine. And I looked at him. I was like, you said you would only come in here if there was an emergency. And he's like, the popcorn spilled, you know? And there was this moment, and it was. Everyone was mortified for me. But to make your point, no, we do not. We want real life, but not real life on that.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Maybe you didn't answer whether you would want all your family.

Mindy Caldwell [00:40:26] Oh, heavens no. Heavens no.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] Yeah. So great. So some grace for Ruby. I don't know. Some grace.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:40:34] Some grace.

Megan Connor [00:40:35] I. I guess. I don't know. It's hard for me to get there, honestly, because, again, she's the one who chose to. To do it. Right. And. And so, yes, these are unedited behind the scenes and things. But as we see later on in the documentary, some of the things she leaves in are just as problematic as the things that were cut out early on.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:40:55] I'm gonna say just a little bit of grace, mediocre grace, minimal grace. Because I actually. Telling you that story, I actually feel better about it because, like, I like that yelling, I don't think is okay. And for her to even see that she would do that, like, with a video in front of her that they never deleted, like, shows me that she wasn't too worried about it. Like. Like, I've had my bad moments, but, like, I am so ashamed of them. I mean, for her to just leave them there on the family computer and have that footage. I don't know. I don't know. And it was pretty shocking to hear some of the ways that she would scream. And there was a moment where she literally grabbed her little girl's mouth and covered it. Like, there's. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:41:45] It shows some signs of domestic violence.

Megan Connor [00:41:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:41:49] Yeah.

Megan Connor [00:41:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] So I've got Ruby yelling at her family while they're all getting ready for church. That was ironic, right?

Mindy Caldwell [00:41:55] So jarring, because they're all getting ready for church, and she's looking gorgeous. And is that the one where she's holding up the markers and then she's got the jar of the marbles, and she's like, this is how we do our scheduling. And then it's just this black cloud comes over and, hey, I'm still recording. Why am I hearing all this noise? And then Kevin points. He shouts back, because we're trying to get ready for church. And then. And so she's in that mode. And then she goes straight back to, you know, and it was just like jarring to see that. That shift, that metamorphosis, like, so quickly

John Dehlin [00:42:30] for me, her playing with the pens and spreading them out. It was almost like a joker face.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:42:34] Yeah, I would say her face. Her face was creepy af. I'm sorry, but it was like such a.

Megan Connor [00:42:40] Such a moment to start with. Yeah. And can we just talk about timing for a second, Mindy? I mean, you and I both have six kids, and I'm just remembering getting my kids ready for church with. Without the help of a spouse who cared to help. That would not be the time that I would choose to try and make

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:58] a video that was the darkest hour of the week for me was that week before. Before we went to church. It's just this frantic mayhem, crying. So, I mean, we have plenty to repent of afterwards, you know, every Sunday because. Because it was just such a crap show, like getting ready for church. And yeah, very, very interesting timing to film a video as you're getting ready for church. Any. Any parent would.

John Dehlin [00:43:26] I mean. Oh, good.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:43:28] I was they also working on a Sunday. Tis test

Megan Connor [00:43:32] working on a Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] But. But it is as Mormons. Like, it is Mormon to have a super stressful. It's like stereotypically Mormon to have a tense, stressful lead up to going to church. So in that sense, it does reflect Mormonism, especially when we have four or five, six kids. But even with one, it's still stressful and hard. So on the one sense, I was glad that got conveyed. On the other hand, it was the. For me, the pen thing was one of the creepiest moments. And to see her practice different facial expressions. I don't think I've ever sat in front of a mirror and thought, how do I make faces that will be good. As a podcaster, I don't think a lot about appearance. Margi's gotta dress me. She does my hair. But also, I'm a guy. So. Also, maybe there's some gender differences in what's expected in terms of women's appearance and facial expressions and behavior. Maybe there's privilege that I have as a man that a Mormon woman has to.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:44:37] There's definitely privilege. Women definitely have to look apart and we can't win. But I also have to say I haven't looked in the mirror and made different faces and expressions. And I would say to you, if that's what she saw, I agree. It looked like the Joker. The joker's a great example. So if that's the look she was going for, she nailed it.

Megan Connor [00:44:55] The smile too wide and the Eyes too wide and that bright, bright red lipstick, you know? No, but I. Can we just talk for one second about why it's so stressful to get ready for church? I don't know about the rest of you guys, but for me it just feels like I could never get up early enough to get everybody looking good to go to church. You know, clean clothes that had to be, you know, girls in dresses, boys in a white shirt and tie, dress shoes with the appropriate dress socks for everybody to have their scriptures. Maybe the kid had a talk that day to bring treats for whatever class I was teaching. I mean, the reason it's so stressful to get ready for church is because the expectations are so high, you know, and it's not just. It's nothing that's written in the doctrine. It's a cultural, societal expectation that you show up at church with everyone, hair done, looking nice, clean clothes. And I will admit as a mom who I kind of felt like a single mom on Sundays because my husband wasn't participating, there was more than one time when I showed up with, you know, kids missing essential items is all I will say. Not to embarrass my children, you know, but things fall through the cracks and when they do, it's really embarrassing, you know?

Perfectionism and the Drive to Create Eight Passengers

Mindy Caldwell [00:46:13] Yeah, I think that's the theme of this whole first section of episode one is perfectionism and the build up to creating eight passengers. The co worker, the former co worker of Jody Hildebrandt, the therapist, Brandon Patrick. He talks a lot about kind of this expectation to be perfect and to look perfect. And Kevin says right after that scene of, of Ruby with the markers, he said, in our church, we were raised to believe that the ultimate thing you can become in this world is apparent. Ruby's sole ambition was to be seen as the perfect mom. It's all she talked about, it's all she focused on. But she wasn't getting enough praise and attention for it. So she decided she was going to create a YouTube channel. And when she sets her mind to something, hell and earth combined could not stop her. She was going to make her vlog bigger and better than everybody else's.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Yeah, it was good. And I guess if I'm. And I am trying to be balanced here and sometimes people get mad at me for it. I don't have an entertainment channel in the sense of trying to be funny or clever or cute. I'm. I'm literally trying to fake a journalist, which you're a real journalist, Lauren. I'm trying to just interview people and get their stories. And I'm not trying to be funny all the time, and I'm not trying to be cute. So, you know, I guess I should give grace to her. That. That's part. That was part of her shtick to be funny and cute and makes people laugh.

Megan Connor [00:47:45] I think that's true. That's true. And I do know other creators who will do multiple takes to see which one looks funnier, which facial expression works better. So I guess, you know, there's. If you're doing physical comedy or if you're making facial expressions with the intent to make people giggle and laugh and be entertained, I guess that's different than what kind of. What we're doing here.

Mindy Caldwell [00:48:04] Anyway, I didn't find it unusual that she was practicing faces. I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] Yeah, yeah.

Megan Connor [00:48:08] The face felt like crazy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:48:10] Yeah.

Megan Connor [00:48:10] Practice, not weird.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:48:11] I mean, well, then she needed. Then she needed more practice because I did not think her look was the joker. But you're right. There are different takes that people do.

Mindy Caldwell [00:48:19] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:48:19] But again, I think the ultimate. The ultimate takeaway is how jarring. You know, that scream contradiction versus the practicing.

Mindy Caldwell [00:48:28] That. That's exactly the point.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] So there was a comment that I wrote down where Ruby said, we're here to show that happy families are a reality. And I think. Do y' all think that she felt she had a happy family at least when she started her eight Passengers? And if you hear about Chad and Kevin reflecting back and maybe even. Maybe less Sherry. But I do think there was a general sense pre8 passengers, that they had a normatively happy Mormon family and genuinely wanted to share with the world. We were talking to your associate Lauren before the show. Do we want to name her?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:49:15] Yeah, Grayson. Grayson.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] So Grayson's never been Mormon, right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:49:18] Correct. She's my producer.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] But she followed eight passengers, and I've heard a lot of Never Mormons followed eight passengers because they felt like Mormons had genuinely, sincerely happy, fun, interesting families. And I think that when Ruby wanted to start eight Passengers, she's like, we've got a great, happy, fun family overall, on average, and we want to share it. Right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:49:44] Yeah. And I think that she thought it was happy. There was a profound quote that we'll probably bring. We'll probably bring up in a little bit, and we can delve into more. But I think that Ruby thought she was a happy family because to Ruby, a happy family is an obedient family. Obedience is love. Love is obedience. That is, I think, what Ruby values. And we'll get into that later. But, Sue, I can certainly think she she thought she had a happy family because everyone was in line and she was in control. I don't think she actually understands what happiness is on. On what I, you know, what I believe is happiness is not what Ruby thinks is happy. But I think that what she perceives as a happy family was an obedient family. And that's what she had. Thus she thought she was happy. And so here, I'll show you guys what this means and what it looks like.

Megan Connor [00:50:32] Yeah. And I would agree. The. The very first video that they shot was the gender reveal for their sixth child.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] With the cake, right?

Megan Connor [00:50:39] With the cake, Right. And that seemed very wholesome to me. It seemed like the kids were genuinely enjoying participating and it seemed like we were catching the real moments there. That felt really authentic to me. Some of the later things that we see, you can just kind of tell the kids aren't really that into. Feels performative a little bit. You know, it does evolve. So I think maybe where it started probably was with a good intention and with a good heart for it. And I don't think that everybody was prepared. And Kevin even comments, she was filming everything and that felt like too much for him.

Mindy Caldwell [00:51:18] Yeah. I don't know if Kevin anticipated when he, When Ruby had the idea to start the. The vlog, I got the impression he didn't anticipate that it was going to be so consuming. You know, there might be this little hobby and it just turned into this. He says, he said, when I came in the door, wherever Ruby was, the camera was and he just could never escape it. And you could see they showed a clip of him clearly not performing in a way that was acceptable to Ruby. And he just looked so uncomfortable and, and just like, okay, well let's try it again, you know, And. And it seems that. That the constant nature of the vlogging seemed to wear on the family quite quickly.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:51:59] That was actually a profound moment for me when Kevin was learning. Like, I really genuinely. I saw a guy that really had no idea what he was supposed to be doing and disappointing his wife. And like, I think it was genuine. Like, he's like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] He's a self described nerd.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:52:12] Yeah, he's a self described nerd. And then. But he took the cue from Ruby in that moment, like, okay, do it again, Ruby. Like, he was like, it was this aha moment for him. It was like literally watching him be trained and he's like, I'm gonna do it better. And you could see that he was doing it to please his wife. Like, okay, I'm learning. I'm learning. But I think it was a profound moment for me, too, because admittedly, I come from, like, a reporting background and I am a co host with my husband, and he was definitely, like, behind. And there were moments when I was like, babe, like, I was like, just be yourself. But, like, you can do it. You can do it. And, like, come on, like. And so there was a little, like, introspective moment there for me, but it was also showing. Not like Ruby. Not like Ruby. Like, don't everyone get the wrong idea. But I. It was a moment of Kevin, like, realizing, like, I've got to get on board to please Ruby. So that's where I was like, a moment me. I'm like, I hope that, you know, I never make John feel like he

Mindy Caldwell [00:53:03] needs to be pleased. So there was, like, just trying to perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Lauren. I think Kevin doing anything to please Ruby is kind of the theme of this entire docu series. You know, I think that was just the driving force of this whole thing. The end till the end was Kevin choosing Ruby over everything and trying his. Trying desperately to be in her good graces and to be the man that she wanted. And he. He even claims that he was insecure with who he was. And he said, I was willing to change to become somebody that somebody else would appreciate and love. And I think that's kind of the groundwork for this entire saga.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] There's several comments coming in that I want to accentuate. First, I just want to say we've got 2500 people joining us on the live stream. If all of you will just do me a quick favor, please subscribe to this channel and like it. That's a huge help to us. While you're at it, jump, create a new tab. Jump over to Hidden True Crime and to Midlife Revolution or Megan Connor's channel. Subscribe to those two. That really helps us. So also, if you're joining us, after we do the live screen recording, you can give us positive reviews on Apple Podcast, on Spotify or wherever you, you know, subscribe on Spotify or Apple Podcast or wherever you get your content. That really helps us. So thank you for doing that. There are several comments coming in about power. So Alexandra corrected me and said that Kevin is a submissive nerd. So she added to my notes reflection on him calling himself a nerd instead of submissive nerd. Angela writes, there was also the feeling that the children were her property. Like they cannot say no. That's also kind of a power question. But then Michael says, let's see. Michael says, I thought it was telling how Sherry referred to her mom as Ruby throughout the entire documentary, and I don't know if that's new or if that was something that she developed later. But the final comment I'll read is from JM Ledger, who writes thank you for this chat. I am sure I am not the only one who wondered how these women got so much power in a patriarchal community. And I'm not sure we've covered this as the band, but several reporters have asked me, is Mommy is Mormon Mother vlogging a way for women to seize power in a societal structure and in a patriarchy where women are generally dismissed, devalued and disenfranchised? Have we commented about that as the band?

Women, Power, and Patriarchy in Mormon Vlogging

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:55:58] I don't know if we have. I have some interesting thoughts on that, honestly, because while Mormonism is a patriarchal community, it absolutely is. I do think there is a lot more nuance in the dynamics of men and women in the LDS faith than people on the outside looking in understand or realize.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Than just men rule the home, than

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:56:21] just men rule the home. And men are taught to be meek and submissive. There is, there is scripture that says if you are not meek and submissive and humble, then amen to your priesthood.

John Dehlin [00:56:36] It's the unrighteous dominion.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:56:37] The unrighteous dominion.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] DC121 right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:56:39] Yeah. For example, like a very strong male personality in an LDS home isn't necessarily valued. In fact, there was a New York Times article this week about how Trump in the very Republican state of Utah doesn't have the same hold as he does in other states. And I think it's because sort of a bombastic strong willed male isn't as valued in the LDS faith as it maybe is in other states. A meek, submissive man with the general authority voice is sort of what is valued. And it is often taught that women rule the home. Listen to your wife, let her rule. She is the homemaker. You stand back. Happy wife, happy life. That is a very strong point of the Mormon family dynamic. And while there is abuse in many LDS homes, I think that it is common that a a humble male man can also be emotionally abused by an overbearing wife inside the home. And when you do have an abusive male in the home, they are often a covert abuser, a covert narcissist, one that on the outside looks at themselves as very humble rather than bombastic. And I do think that there is an opportunity for many male men to feel the pressure to be that, that, that worker, to be that provider and to submit to his wife. So there is a dynamic in the LDS patriarchy that I don't think is actually explored enough and might not be seen by outsiders looking in. It's. There is some power that women have and there are strong women. I am very proud of many of my female Mormon pioneers who, you know, completely, you know, own some of the men on the pioneer trails carrying, you know, the children across the creek there. There is a strength in LDS women that isn't talked about enough, despite it being a patriarchy and men ruling.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Okay, I love that perspective. Mindy, let's have your perspective on the question. And then.

Mindy Caldwell [00:58:48] And then me just on the question of power with women or visibility or

John Dehlin [00:58:53] voice like women, one thing that's just factual and separate from sort of influence in the home. And I think there's hard influence and soft influence, but in the church, women aren't in the leading governing councils where the most important decisions get made about who gets called, you know, what money gets spent and where. And certainly in the higher echelons, it's a, you know, you look at the, the list of general authorities, there's like 150 mostly white men and a few women at the bottom that some would say are just kind of put there as, as trophies. So, I mean, I, I don't think it's controversial to say that in terms of power and decision making in the Mormon hierarchy there, women are limited in their power and voice. And so many reporters are asking whether Mormon mother vlogging is a way for women, Mormon women to have more of a voice.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [00:59:56] Go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [00:59:57] I think absolutely it is. It's a way for women to gain some independence and some, you know, autonomy and, you know, taking over some of the power. For me, personally, I don't think I recognized the power imbalance. I don't think it was as recognizable to me until after I stepped away from the church. I felt like when I was in the church, I. And I. I do feel very lucky that I have a very loving partner, husband who has always been equitable and, And I, although we have. We have had to face some of our own inner power dynamics that we weren't really aware of, that we've had lots of deep discussions about that over the past several years as we've deconstructed our Mormonism. But, yeah, I. It's an interesting question because it became way more clear to me once I had kind of stepped away from the, the model of the church, but the power imbalance. And it didn't bother me as much when I was, when I was in the church. I think I didn't internalize it as much. So. Yeah. And I think it's a kind of a case by case too. I think, I think you probably would have strong opinions about this, about this topic based on people's lived experiences. And I, and I think it's wonderful what Lauren pointed out that there, there are good examples and you've had good examples of like strong women and, and, but, but maybe there's others who haven't. And their only lived experience has been having to be totally submissive and the husband makes all the important decisions. And so, yeah, it's, it's an interesting question.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:01:37] And I've been in that relationship. I want to say I'm not. I've been in, you know, an emotionally abusive relationship. So I'm not. I hope that that's clear. What I'm saying is that happens. It's just maybe not your classic, like there's a lot more. It's, you know, that covert sort of abuse.

Mindy Caldwell [01:01:53] Sure. Going on.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] And everyone's gonna have different experiences.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:01:56] Yeah. Everyone here. Yeah. I don't want to discount anyone. I just think it's, it's just an interesting.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Because Annie writes, I don't agree with Lauren and that's fine. She writes Mormon is Mormon. Men are the authority and the last word. They'll play the priesthood card. And again, I, I think that's Andy's experience and I don't think Annie would be alone either. Yeah. So I respect that. But, but there's going to be different experiences. Megan, did you want to share your thoughts?

Megan Connor [01:02:23] Yeah. So I, in my experience, in a patriarchal system where women know that they don't have the power to actually affect change and they don't have the power to make their own rules where their rules are dictated to them by the men. I think a lot of women view that as an opportunity to become powerful among women. And certainly blogging, vlogging, setting yourself up in social media to be. To get a lot of recognition and likes and clicks definitely puts you on a pedestal above other women who don't do those things. And actually is you setting yourself up as an example. And this is what Ruby was doing, I believe, setting herself up as an example of what a good Mormon wife and mother should look like. And that is a way to grab power. In that system where women are not afforded power, you can be seen as powerful. Among women.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Yeah. That's great.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:03:19] To piggyback what you said. I thought that was a great point. Another thing I want to point out about LDS women is there's always this joke about gossip in the Relief Society, the Mormon women gossiping and knowing about every kid's name and who's to blame and what's going on in every family. And. And I. And I do want to point out that there have been studies that have shown that women. That women. That in a patriarchal society, when women don't have as much power as you just point out, that is how women gain power, by like. Like, sort of understanding the dynamics of every family, of the. Of the village, of the community. And thus, that is how they're gaining their own power, by sort of integrating into this community and knowing what's going on and using that skill, which actually, I just want to say, like, gives me empathy for women. You know, every time I see a woman that gossips a lot, I think, you know what, like, she's. She's probably trying to figure out a way to, like, you know, gain some power in her world. But. So I have empathy for that. But I just think that that goes along with what you said, is that's sort of a part of this dynamic, too.

Megan Connor [01:04:24] Yeah. You know, and I think there are few things more violent for women to engage in than reputation destruction. And that certainly happens in the culture of the church, as you're saying. You're pointing out in Relief Society circles with. Among the women, you know, who didn't go on a mission or who didn't get married in the temple or whose kid, you know, messed up at school or who was getting a scholarship or not, you know, the idea of, rather than empowering each other as women and supporting each other in our struggles as mothers, oftentimes people were catty and gossipy about what. Or what. What was or was not being accomplished by the children, you know, and in the families. And I think that we don't give enough credence to how violent that is among women.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] Interesting. This is great. These perspectives are great. I'm so glad we're talking about it. Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:18] And I didn't mean to start a frenzy in the chat if I did.

Megan Connor [01:05:21] I just.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:21] I just think it's a lot more complex than people realize.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] True.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:24] And Mormonism is unique in the power dynamics.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] To say that women are weak, Mormon women are weak, feeble, powerless, little flowers is totally inaccurate.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] But to say that it's not a

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:37] patriarchy is also inaccurate.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] Yeah. And to say that women are equally powered as men. Totally not true.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:42] Not true either. Right?

John Dehlin [01:05:44] Good comment from Wild Notes of Sage. She writes the priesthood card. You know how they say patriarchy also hurts men? You've probably heard that too.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:54] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] And I think Kevin ends up being an illustration of that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:05:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:59] Wild notes of Sage writes the priesthood card is also used to blame men in her, in her experience for their wife's failings too, though she is abusive. What is wrong with his spiritual purity and strength? I saw that with my parents. She wrote, dad equals zero support. So those are some interesting themes about how sometimes men, so much pressure can be put on men as presiding and as being the priesthood leader. And I do think there were dynamics of Ruby, on the one hand, wanting to sort of have strong influence over the family, but on the other hand wanting Kevin to step up and be that priesthood leader. And sometimes a Mormon man doesn't know how much am I being a leader in being a priesthood leader versus how much am I deferring to the fact that you're the one who's home with the kids almost all day. And I should probably defer to you who's home with the kids all day. And a lot of these decisions that get made. Right, because you're kind of the expert on the children in the home in many ways.

Megan Connor [01:07:02] My son in law had a really funny comment about that where he said to my daughter, I can't help you dismantle the patriarchy and also change your tire. You have to do both.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:07:13] I also want to clarify that I disagree with the stereotype that all of the women in the church are gossiping. I actually think that they really empower one another. My point is that stereotype stems from something. And when there are women perhaps who do do that, I, I give them grace because I think that there might be a power dynamic that they're trying to seek. So I don't, I think that stereotype is wrong, but I think it stems from something that's a good point.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:39] And I think there's no denying that there's a culture of comparison and perfectionism within, probably within with women, but with Mormon women particularly. And so I think as these, these blogs and these vlogs started to gain traction, I think it's another avenue for women to see other women as appearing more perfect or more better than, than they are. And in one, you know, in one stance, you might want to be striving for that. But then I'm speaking from personal experience, sometimes I would see these and just, it would make me feel bad about myself and the job that I was doing. So I think that there's this comparison, there's this kind of one up ism. I think that there's so many of these, these mother vlogging channels, the families and the people look very similar. And I think that there's a design to that, you know, as far as just it being especially in Utah being somewhat of a homogenous, you know, society and template to start with. And so it's, I think it's easy to just compare and to and that's where maybe you're getting some of the gossiping and, and the that's you're going to see that in Relief Society on Sunday or you're going to see that as you're watching consuming this media that these, these moms are putting out.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] We really appreciate those. If if those of you want our your comment or question to be seen, super chats are through YouTube for us to see them. So thanks to all the super chats so far and mostly to just the bread and butter monthly donors at Mormon Stories that make all this possible. Thank you for being a monthly donor. Car chmn asks something we've already kind of covered, but I think we can briefly touch on this. Why do you think YouTube is so common in Mormonism? Is it more related to the journaling directive where Mormons are commanded to keep journals? A way for undereducated women to help support large families? Or you could say large families need extra income. It's a way to supplement income. Doesn't necessarily need to be under education, other factors. So the question is why so much. We've mentioned the missionary element that Mormons are taught to be missionaries. It's one of the three great missions of the church. There's a saying in Mormonism, every member a missionary. As I was growing up, it was always like they would hand out books of Mormon in elders quorum or in young men's, young women's priesthood and it's like go out to your friends in school, write your testimony in front of the Book of Mormon. You know, give, give that Book of Mormon to your friends. Invite them to church. I invited several of my high school friends to church. You know, one of the biggest kudos or accolades you could get as a Mormon teen or youth or even adult is to help one of your friends convert to, to the church. That's a really big deal. Several high schoolers converted to Mormonism because of my Mormon friends that befriended these non Mormons and brought them into the church. So I think that's part of it as well. So there's missionary work, but there's also just, you know, advancing the image of the church with the Osmonds and with, you know, professional athletes like Steve Young. There's always been sort of this memory of Mormons having a bad image with all the polygamy and the bearded pioneer polygamists. And once, you know, our prophets, seers and revelators shaved their beards and we had to change our image from kind of frontier polygamists to something else. It became happy, smiley. Dads dressed like IBM employees. Mommies dressed like June Cleaver. Moms, sorry, not mommies. Moms dressed like June Cleaver. Perfectly coiffed hair for the children. Buttoned up beaver cleaver, kind of 50s appearance. That is sort of what Mormons adopted. And then it was always about making the church look good. So those are some of the reasons. Missionary work, journaling. Also family history. Right. We're all taught to have family history, to keep records. And scrapbooking was such a massive phase, right, in Mormonism for so long. But. But tell me if I'm wrong. Scrapbooking was tedious and expensive and difficult. So being able to just. It wasn't vlogging like the end of Mormon scrapbooking in a way, because now you can just flip on your camera and record stuff or snap photos and put them on Instagram. Why would you need to buy the scrapbooks and print out all the photos and tape them on? So those are my answers. Anything else you want to add to that?

Megan Connor [01:12:25] I just want to take exception to the uneducated part because, you know, just because a woman stays at home with her children doesn't mean she's uneducated. Many of these women are very well educated, very well read, well versed, and they choose to stay home because of some of the cultural expectations and also because of church leadership, defining that that is a more valuable role for a woman to stay at home with her kids. And don't get me wrong, I loved the years that I stayed home with my kids. They were few because we, you know, had so many. I always had to do something to help make ends meet, but I really enjoyed that time and I felt like it was valuable. However, it was also incredibly difficult and I felt like we weren't given enough direction about how to take care of ourselves as well as take care of our children. So, anyway, just a little bit of a tangent, but I think a lot of the. The reason why YouTube became a thing. John. I Think you hit on some of those points, that some of it is journaling, you know, keeping a family history. The other part, I really think the missionary work part of it was the main thing, and that's really what Elder Ballard was saying in that first clip, was that he wanted more examples of righteous LDS families telling their stories out there on the Internet, rather than other people looking in to Mormon culture and telling those stories for us.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:13:48] I agree with you. Yeah, I actually think that's a misconception. Mormon were actually highly educated. I don't know what it was like before my time, but growing up, it was getting education. And the majority of all my friends that I grew up with that are LDs are educated. It's that they're not using their education necessarily beyond the home. They are in the home, but beyond it. And so it does give them something. I'm going to go even further. What. What did Mormonism help me with growing up?

Megan Connor [01:14:14] A fear of.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:14:15] A fear of death.

Megan Connor [01:14:16] Really.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:14:16] What's in the next life? I don't know. But you know what? I know there's a God that's loved me. I know the families are supposed to be together forever, and I am going to attach to that to just, like, know that there's a purpose for me. And if families are forever, journalism is so important and recording our lives here and. And recording every family memory, because this is all that matters. And just sort of. I remember a Sunday school lesson where it said, like, we know this about this Mormon pioneer because she kept a journal. And if you don't keep a journal, she didn't keep a journal. We would have never known this. And I was a scrapbooker and I have 60 journals in my garage from growing up. And I think that it made me feel purposeful. It helped sort of, you know, this deep fear of death and mortality and what is this life even about? And I think that if families are together forever, then all that matters is sort of recording our family life. And then I also want to point out that Mormons are networkers. We are innate networkers. We have wards and we have stakes and we have, you know, you know, John de Lynn's friends just moved next door to the Frankies. I mean, we are telling me the Mormon world is small without telling me the Mormon world is small. And so we are going to YouTube and we are going to do it well, because we're all going to collaborate and we're going to pitch one another and we're gonna share. So I just think those are a few things that I, you know, point out, when it comes to recording our

Mindy Caldwell [01:15:43] family lives, I think it's important to note. Let me find it. Kevin says at one point that he doesn't believe that Ruby's intention in starting eight passengers was to make a bunch of money. Her intent. Her intent was to share their beautiful, happy family with the world and testify of, you know, this happiness that the gospel had brought to their family. Certainly I think it becomes more about money later on with so many followers and brand deals. But he did say, right, that it. That it wasn't. He didn't believe it was about money for Ruby at first. So I wonder if a lot of these women who start these vlogs aren't. Aren't maybe looking at it as a way to make money. I do think that there's influencers now that maybe that's. That's, you know, a big impetus for them to start. But I wonder if just, you know, the mission of just, like, putting yourself out there and. And sharing the gospel through your vlog was more of a, you know, catalyst, or more of a. What's the word? I'm thinking of. To. Anyway, you know, what I'm trying to say to. To share the. To share the. Your family and your gospel with. Without regard to, like, making a ton of money off of it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:16:53] Yeah. Or when you do start to make money, as Kevin pointed out, it's an abundance and a blessing from God. And so we have to talk about

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:00] the cosmic vending machine.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:17:01] Yeah, we'll get there. But, you know, it's. It's. You're still making a difference, and you don't have to feel too guilty about exploiting your family because if you are making money, it's for.

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:13] It's for this high purpose, the cause. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:15] And again, there's probably different motivations. Every YouTuber's got their own set of motivations. There's also kind of that Silicon Valley effect where. Where once a few families in St. George or in Salt Lake get into YouTubing, other people get into it. The network comes in. That's part of it. We just got in it early. I thought it was interesting. Couple things going back to episode one, I thought it was interesting with Chad and Sherry. It shows them playing the piano and the violin together. And then it was said, but they only saw what we wanted to show them.

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:48] Them.

John Dehlin [01:17:48] So it's this acknowledgment from the kids, again, that it was consciously curated. Curated. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Megan Connor [01:17:56] We can't skip over the chart.

John Dehlin [01:17:59] Oh, I'm getting there.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:18:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] Yeah, yeah, let's go to it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:03] Consciously following our notes.

Kevin and Ruby's Relationship Origins

John Dehlin [01:18:05] Tell us about the chart. Go describe it.

Megan Connor [01:18:08] Kevin talks about, you know, how he started his relationship with Ruby, and he knew there was a lot of competition, and he happened to see in her closet that she had a chart hanging there, and on one side of it was all of the attributes that she wanted a husband to have. And then across that's like the Y axis, Right, Right. And then across the top are all the names of the guys she was dating. And there were.

John Dehlin [01:18:30] There were guys.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:32] I think she said five. I think she said.

Megan Connor [01:18:33] Okay, were there only five? Because if you look at the chart.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:18:37] Documentary. It looks like way more than that, you know, and the thing that I noticed the most is that one of the things that the. The filmmakers focused in on the attribute that she had starred and highlighted is Crazy about Me. That was what she valued the most.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] So, Kevin, can I read something I wrote down?

Megan Connor [01:18:57] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] Has. Has physical, you know, sort of athletic, religious. Has his Eagle Scout taller than me. Praise good with her siblings. Right? You said taller. Yeah. Was it five inches taller than her or something? And it was fun that. It was fun that he said, I decided to play dirty because it sounds like he went and wrote down everything that was on there. And then he just. Eyes on the prize. Would try to fulfill every requirement that she had.

Mindy Caldwell [01:19:25] I studied that chart more than my schooling.

Megan Connor [01:19:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:19:28] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:19:28] He was trying hard to check all those boxes because he wanted to win the prize.

Mindy Caldwell [01:19:33] I have other attributes. Positive attitude, easy to talk to. Will help children with homework. Shaves, pushes for family home, evening. Smells good. Wants six children. Liked yard work. Praise daily disciplinary. Which I thought that was an interesting one. And then I highlighted Is Crazy about me.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] Oh, nice work, Mindy.

Megan Connor [01:19:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:56] Any thoughts on those, Mindy? Any reflections? I mean, was it good that he played dirty? Is that kind of cute and endearing, or is that creepy?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:20:04] I. I think I actually feel sorry for him. I think this is more about Rudy Ruby than. Well, it says something about both of them. First off, you know, my husband, who's a criminal psychologist, that if there's anything. This is all you need to know about Ruby Frankie, everything. Everything to Ruby Frankie is a formula, and it's about obedience and it's about a formula. Like, to her, there's a formula to fix everything, and this is the formula for the perfect spouse. You know, as far as Kevin Frankie playing dirty, I actually feel sorry for him. Like, I wish that someone had said to him that this was a giant red flag. That this is a controlling, this is a controlling woman and you probably don't want to be a part of this. Can I ask you for someone who had low self esteem, he's like, I just need to get this beautiful woman and now I know how and I'm an engineer and this is, is I'm going to get this.

John Dehlin [01:20:53] Can I ask you about that?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:20:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:54] So on the one hand I see what Dr. John's saying because the poster with the grids, I've never seen that before and that seems over the top. But tell me for all three of you, wasn't it normal, like a stereotypically normal young women's lesson to sit you down in on Sunday during Primary Young Women's and have you list out the qualities you want in a husband, returned missionary, righteous, priesthood holder, handsome, cute?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:21:26] No, absolutely. I had a list and I had a future written out and I had, you know, a home that I wanted with a wishing well, you know, so

John Dehlin [01:21:35] the list is normal.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:21:36] I think a list is normal. And actually I would encourage most women to, to not settle and to have a list and things that they want and stick true to that. My list concluded. I want someone nice, with empathy. I want someone smart. I want someone who wants to be around me, you know, that can be my best friend. I joked with John, we talked about this episode too over at Hidden True Crime and I said, you know, if I was making this type of list I would, you know, put things like, you know, I want John to have a British accent, you know, and I, I want him to, you know, mostly wear red and I want him to, I mean, the, the extreme of a color coded list that you are putting in your closet. I need him, Mindy said that I need him to do yard work, I need him to do this. I mean there's a couple things with this and, and maybe I'll get controversy. I think it shows that she thinks there's a formula for everything and it shows her obedience, which to me is a major theme in all of this, this obsession with obedience and that is say that she even wants him to sort of also be on the same board as being obedient and being a disciplinary. I also think it's really interesting, like I'm going to put this out here. If, if, if Ruby is gay, I'll just say it. If she is, and we might never know, but if she is, I, and she wants to be the most perfect, most obedient, best mom ever. She is really putting this into a scientific formula that sort of negates feeling something towards somebody. It's so impersonal.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] It's kind of objectifying him.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:23:14] Yes, it's objectifying him with like all these list of things that she needs for her perfect life in her mind. And you know, there's nothing about how attracted she is to him or things like that. Like, it's just.

John Dehlin [01:23:26] Was there attraction there? Mindy? Did you see attraction?

Mindy Caldwell [01:23:28] She says very handsome.

Megan Connor [01:23:29] She's.

Mindy Caldwell [01:23:29] She's putting all of the emphasis on. On him and not like saying the things that I will do to contribute to this partnership. It's putting all of the responsibility on these suitors to meet her demands and then she'll choose. Maybe that wasn't the purpose of her chart to say, like. But yeah, it didn't seem like there was a lot of collaboration and like, what could we do together? It's like, what is he going to bring to the table to help me create this perfect family in life that I'm envisioning?

John Dehlin [01:23:55] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:23:56] Or her feelings towards him. It wasn't I need to be attracted to him. Like I want to think with, you know, it's he needs to be handsome. As in like a societal standard of what other people are going to think is handsome. Right. Like how it's going to perceived by others in this perfect life that I am building, but not me being attracted to him.

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:17] Good point.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:24:18] It's. He needs to be handsome. I mean, this is a very. Yeah, as you say, impersonal, just sort of crazy checklist.

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:25] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Megan, Mindy, anything else about the list you all want to say?

Megan Connor [01:24:28] Yeah, I was just going to mention that, you know, one of the things that was really telling to me throughout this documentary are Ruby's facial expressions. And in these very first few shots that we get of Kevin and Ruby together and Kevin saying that he was so uncomfortable. He's trying so hard to do what Ruby wants. And you can see it on Kevin's face. He really wants to please her. He really wants to do well. And if you listen to, you know, the Gottmans talk about relationships, they say the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. Right. The end of your relationship is if you see eye rolling or other signs of contempt. And that's what I see from Ruby from the very beginning of this footage. I see eye rolling, I see contempt, I see she's putting up with him. So to your question, John, was there attraction? Was there love there? I wouldn't classify that as attraction and love in the way, at least the way that I define it. To me, it seemed like this list was someone who could check boxes and fill a role. But as far as the attraction, the connection between the two of them, I saw very little evidence of that.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] Yeah, yeah. I'll say just personally that I was starting to have my faith challenges on my mission and at byu. So I didn't have the stereotypical list personally with Margi, it was like, it was literally like, who, who's well read, who's smart, who just seems hard working but kind, who could I build a life together with that, that sort of thing? And who's gonna love me even if I lose my faith? But the flip side of that that I see a lot is there's sometimes Mormon couples get married and they're just best friends. And that, that does exist. What I see more often, and we talk about this on Mormon stories all the time, or it's so stereotypical for a guy to get off his mission, his mission president before he leaves the mission, says, get married as soon as possible. Find that girl and marry her. They go to one of the BYU's, whether Idaho or Provo or whatever, date for a few months, get engaged and the engagement is only a few months and they get married. And it wasn't so much find your best friend, find your soulmate. For far too many, it's find someone who meets the checklist that the church

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:26:56] gave you the criteria.

John Dehlin [01:26:58] And so you're kind of marrying. It's kind of like a three. I don't mean to say threesome, but like it's you and your spouse and the church. And the checklist kind of represents the church. It's that the person you're going to choose is doing the same things the church wants both you and them to do. And so in that sense, it's three people in the marriage. And that's why when someone loses their faith in Mormonism, it's not just like, oh, they're going to go to a different church or maybe not go to church at all. It's an existential threat to the marriage because there's the church who's the third, or Jesus who's the third in the marriage and Jesus is saying, that's a no go. You leave the church, this relationship very well may be done. Whereas if you marry your best friend, it's like, oh, no worries, we're besties. The church is just one of the, you know, one thing that can change. Does that make sense?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:27:53] Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:27:53] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:27:54] Yeah. And definitely my perspective has changed as a mom with kids of marrying age, you know, prior to my leaving the church. I definitely had that, those checklists that I wanted for my kids. I want them to get married in the temple. I want them to marry a returned missionary. Now I say, do they treat you with kindness and respect? Do you communicate well? Can you repair after conflict? Do they have good relationships with their family members? You know, all of those kinds of questions and none of this performative, superficial, how tall are they? And you know, are they going to be a disciplinarian in the home? You know, it's like more about the relationship between the two people and their ability to communicate and, and to handle things in a healthy way.

Mindy Caldwell [01:28:39] Yeah, I think that all of the talk of lists, Mormons are a list making people. We just are. And I don't recall a specific young women's lesson that I was encouraged to write down attributes for a husband. It likely happened, but I do remember just taking that on myself and writing attributes. Not anything as specific as what Ruby wrote as far as appearance and things like that, but definitely gospel centered testimony and some, probably some provider type, you know, wanting. I, I struggled growing up with Lovely. You know, my parents were hard working, but there were some periods of unemployment and so financial insecurity was a hard thing for me. So that was definitely a goal for me was to try to find somebody who would be a good provider. I did get a degree, but I always intended to stay home with my children. And, and so, you know, I had some of those patriarchal methods in my mind. But yeah, as far as the lists, I agree with what, what you've all said and, and I think that it can, it can set you up when you get too rigid in a list and setting or listing out criteria, it can get you into trouble. And, and a strong memory that I have is I had my final faith crisis 11 years ago this week. But previous, 15 years previous to that I had like, I describe it as my mini faith crisis where I kind of broke down for a couple of weeks and my overwhelming thought in my mind was I can't tell Steve, my husband because he, he's going to leave me if, if I. So that was definitely baked in, even if it had never been talked about. And so I finally did confess to him that I was having these struggles and he, and he didn't leave me and I think he just thought it would blow over. And it did. It was, I put a little bit of a band aid on it and returned to it later. But yeah, so I just think it's, it's not uncommon at all to, to have These, These lists and these goals. And I agree with you that I wish there was more focus on a friend and, you know, a soulmate and like, that you're going to go through some crap together and. And are you going to be okay? And I think there's a really unhealthy focus sometimes an advice that's given to newly Mormon married couples that if you have, you know, if you're both strong in the gospel, like, any marriage can work. And that's not. That's not bull crap. I know. Totally.

Megan Connor [01:31:06] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:31:06] It's crap. And that's not talking at all about sexual compatibility and emotionally emotional styles and parenting styles. And so I don't think I'm. I don't think I'm out there when I. I think that that advice is given to a lot of people where if you. If you have two people who are committed to the. You can make your marriage work, and it's just not true.

John Dehlin [01:31:27] Yeah. Amen. Thank you. Just really quickly, to Mrs. Lonely Hearts for the support that means the world. Okay, so the next part of episode one, they do kind of montage of the courtship. I identified the old rock reception house in Logan that Margi and I have been to a reception there. You know, they get married, they start having kids, and they show the kid crawling out of the crib as kind of like the first you8 Passengers YouTube video that kind of goes viral.

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] And they start showing the ticker of the subscribers going.

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:05] And the paychecks are getting bigger from YouTube.

Megan Connor [01:32:08] Well, I just don't. I don't want to skip over that first paycheck.

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:10] Oh, yes.

Megan Connor [01:32:12] Pivotal.

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:13] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:32:13] That Kevin said when he saw that first paycheck, his reluctance changed completely. And he did a 180.

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:20] Yep.

Megan Connor [01:32:21] For $85. Completely changed his.

John Dehlin [01:32:25] I wanted more is what we wanted.

Megan Connor [01:32:27] More. Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] Yep.

Faith, Money, and the Prosperity Gospel

Megan Connor [01:32:28] Can we talk about the cosmic vending machine?

John Dehlin [01:32:30] Yeah, yeah. Prosperity gospel. Like, well, you.

Megan Connor [01:32:34] You had this in your notes. I noticed, like in big, bold letters. Because I. I noticed this too.

John Dehlin [01:32:39] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So as. As they start making more money, the kids become employees, basically to the. To the podcast. You know, they. They. It's got Paige Hannah in there, who's another.

Mindy Caldwell [01:32:53] Yeah. That's the first time that we see Paige Hannah is when she doesn't real. Doesn't really recognize, I don't think how popular a passengers has become and how recognizable the Frankies are. They go to see Hamilton and she's at the, you know, concession stand, and somebody's like, are you here with Ruby.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] Are you with Ruby?

Mindy Caldwell [01:33:11] And she's like, I was kind of blown away by. She. Paige does say, I was always blown away by Ruby's business sense. I think that's shortly before they reached 1 million subscribers.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] Yeah. And they talked about the money going from 20,000amonth. Well, I mean, from. From a paycheck of a couple hundred bucks to twenty thousand a month to, at the peak, a hundred thousand a month. So that's, you know, over a million a year, which is great money. And then, yeah. Kevin talks about a cosmic vending machine where he basically feels like he was bargaining with God, that if they are sharing Mormonism. Oh, let me just make the point. This, I feel, was an. Was an edit for the world because Kevin says as long as we're sharing Christianity with the whole world, in return, God would bless them. And I think that is absolutely false and inaccurate. There's no possible way, in my opinion, that in Kevin's mind, he was thinking, we're sharing Christianity with the world. What do Mormons think when they share their virgin version of religiosity with the world? What do they think? You guys want to fill in the blanks?

Megan Connor [01:34:27] We're the one true religion.

John Dehlin [01:34:29] Mormonism. Right.

Megan Connor [01:34:30] Mormonism is not Christianity.

John Dehlin [01:34:32] I mean, Mormons will get mad if you say they're not Christian, but Mormons think of themselves as Mormons or Latter Day Saints first, at least in the church I grew up with. Now, recently, just in the past couple years, the new prophet, Russell M. Nelson has, you know, you know, gotten rid of the term Mormon, grown the logo to make Jesus more emphasized, shortened the church name to just call us the Church of Jesus Christ. But back when Kevin and Ruby were running eight passengers at its peak, they were Mormons first and Christians 10th or 20th. Now, that's my opinion. That's how I have internalized Mormonism. Any disagreement there?

Megan Connor [01:35:14] Well, I just, you know, I think that the reason that the prophet Russell Nelson started talking about using the full name of the church, obviously we have our speculations about his beef about that and everything, but it does contain the name of Jesus Christ. Right. And. And he was wanting to re. Emphasize that, yes, we are Christian, we do believe in Jesus Christ. And so I just think, you know, that, yeah, we want to be seen as Christian, but also both. And. Right. Have our cake and eat it too. Be the one true religion that, you know, everybody else just has a little piece of the gospel. We have the fullness of the gospel.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:35:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] All other churches are false in Mormonism. Any other Christian baptism does not count in heaven. Any other Christian baptism, any other Christian marriage does not count in the afterlife. I don't know. I've made my point. What do you think?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:36:14] This was a big moment for me. Well, I mean, do you have anything to say to that? Because actually that's not. I actually didn't. It didn't even occur to me to think of like the Christian versus if you have something to say.

Mindy Caldwell [01:36:23] No, it's an interesting edit. It's interesting that he pointed out Christianity. We believe that we were sharing goodness, Christianity with the whole world. And that's, that's not the framework of the church that I grew up in. We didn't really talk a lot about being Christian. I just think it's changed. I mean, of course we believed that we were Christian, but the more pressing present face was Mormon, you know, was lds. So I do think there's been a shift and I think that it's just an effort to be more mainstream and to be more palatable to mainstream Christians.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:36:54] Growing up in the lds, faith for me was about Christianity. In fact, I. It was about Christ to me. But I know that's not for everyone, but for me it was so. I didn't even catch that at it. That word didn't even. That worked.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] Can I ask you about that?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:37:06] Yeah, you can ask me.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] Okay.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:37:07] So I didn't even try to. This was a moment that was big for me. But that. What you guys are saying is so interesting because like, this wasn't even like a thing. It was a big. For another reason.

John Dehlin [01:37:14] But yeah, I should clarify. I'm not saying that Mormons don't believe in Jesus and don't consider Jesus to be central to their faith. I do. I'm just saying identity wise, if you ask the average Mormon five years ago or before, they're much more likely to say LDS or Mormon than Christian. That's the only point I'm making. Not that Christianity or Christ isn't central to our religious worship. Okay, sorry. Only to clarify, but keep going. Lauren?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:37:42] No, that's, that's interesting to me. Like, for me, I thought Gordon B. Hinckley did a lot with us being Christian. Of course, that was the. Really, the first, you know, I remember the first prophet I remember was Ezra Taft Benson, but I don't really remember him per se and his teachings. I was a primary kid, so my first prophet memory was really Gordon B. Hinckley. And I thought it was a lot about Christianity. I remember being a child and somebody coming up to me. I even think younger than 8 and saying, so you're not Christian? And knowing exactly what that wasn't going, no, I believe in Christ. Like, I'm absolutely Christian. I remember the first time someone accused me not being Christian. I was like 6 or 7. But if somebody like, no, I'm Christian.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] But if somebody said to you what, you know, what's your faith, would you say Christian or would you say Mormon or lds?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:38:27] I say Christian. I actually always said even, even on my mission, I would say even on my mission, I would say I believe in Christ. And the vehicle for the way I worship Christ is the LDS faith. So that's how I perceived it. I didn't say when I went on a mission that I knew the church was true. I didn't. I believe in Christ. I studied in Jerusalem. Like Christ was the center and I like, worship. And my family's culture is being Mormon or lds. Thus we. That's how we worship and that's how I sing my hymns about Christ. Is that's the vehicle to worshiping Christ.

John Dehlin [01:39:01] That's awesome. Well, that's, for me, different experiences.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:39:03] Yeah, different experiences. And I'm not saying that's right, just different experiences. And I validate everybody else's.

John Dehlin [01:39:08] What did strike you about this? What was the thing that you.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:39:10] The thing that struck me about this moment was this, this. A lot of money, I think, can often be. That is a moment, I think, where a lot of families or a lot of people start to feel conflicted. Right? Like is what they're doing. It's. It's guilt. It's, it's. We are making so much money off this. We are exploiting our children. We are, you know, doing all these things and we are making so much money and we're going on these crazy great vacations and, and trust me, I don't think anyone should feel guilty for, for making money. But to me, I think a lot of, of the LDS culture is about guilt and it's about community and it's about taking care of everyone. And oftentimes in wards, like, you do see the people that are blessed with a lot of money and those that aren't, you know, and, and giving. And I think that a Mormons and LDS culture, you want whatever you do to have purpose and meaning. And then I also think that there was a guilt aspect there. And like, oh my gosh, we're making so much money. We're doing all these things. Some things don't feel right, but it's for a greater purpose and we are being blessed and we are, you know, an abundance is, you know, coming our way. And. And I think it's to, like, erase and put blinders on from all the other things that aren't okay about this.

Megan Connor [01:40:39] Yeah, that money can blur some lines. And I think what struck me the most was the line where Kevin said he felt like he was doing business with God.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:40:48] Yeah, it's got to feel good. It's got to feel good to do business with God. So I think he was saying. And I think that was maybe his moment of like, hi. I think this plays a theme throughout the next half of this. This documentary, which is why I think this point is so important. He thought that he was being blessed for his righteousness in what his family was doing. This made themselves special. And I think this is a pivotal point of what happens next, how they get involved with Jody Hildebrandt. They had a higher meaning and a higher purpose, and they were being blessed with all of this money. And so it was proof that what they were doing was right. Like, this is like this moment of foreshadowing, I think, and really setting the stage of, like. And then I have a good quote

Mindy Caldwell [01:41:32] from Kevin about that. So this is timeline wise. They're getting really popular. They've. They've hit the million. They're making a lot of money. We're talking about the cosmic vending machine. She gets pointed out. She gets highlighted by YouTube on Mother's Day. Ruby does. They highlight Ruby as the part of their Mother's day celebration on YouTube, Kevin describes her as America's mom. They're getting a flood of positive comments on YouTube, and it's just feeling so good for the Frankies at this point. And Kevin says Ruby would confide to me that she was meant to be some sort of instrument in the hand of God, that she was meant for something bigger than herself. So I think that speaks exactly to what you're saying, Lauren. Just this foreshadowing of all of that success. Certainly there were financial benefits, but I think it was feeding Ruby's ego and her sense that she was special and important and that God had a higher mission for her moving forward.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] Pretty clear.

Megan Connor [01:42:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:30] That she felt that.

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:31] Can we talk really quickly about Kevin saying he was living. Living vicariously through Chad? I found that part interesting. So Chad talks about how Sherry says if Chad or. Or myself were on the thumbnail of the video, it would always get more views. And so I think Ruby would put Sherry and Chad on. And I think especially Chad, it seemed, was the most popular. And he said.

John Dehlin [01:42:54] Did he just final say yeah, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:56] He said, I think I knew early on that people liked seeing me the most. It's a little selfish of me to say, but it was also true. I brought a lot of character into the channel. I was good at being light hearted and fun. The audience was girls my age at the time. I think they found me fun and attractive and I'm not complaining. But then this part by Kevin I just thought was so interesting. He said, I was living vicariously through Chad. He was everything that I wished I was when I was a kid. Confident, handsome, great at sports, the heartthrob and the comedic relief. And that's important. Ruby knew that and she exploited it. And then the interviewer asks Kevin, did you exploit it? And he said, absolutely, I did.

John Dehlin [01:43:34] So that's vulnerable vulnerability on Kevin's part, right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:43:38] Yeah. I think it's also speaks to what we've been talking about previously about just him being insecure and molding himself into whatever, whatever to make Ruby happy. And so, yeah, I also see that

Megan Connor [01:43:51] admission by him of the exploitation as some somewhat, you know, a show of contrition. You know, he realizes that there were some really harmful aspects to what they were doing. And I think he's recognizing it and owning it. And I'm, I'm, I'm grateful that he's doing that.

John Dehlin [01:44:08] Yeah. Okay, what do y' all think about that? The segment where the Nate, where they move into the new neighborhood in Springville, they Upgrade to the McMansion, as I like to call it, and it seems like the neighbors are kind of dishing, right? Yeah, they basically say that. I think it was. It was Lisa McClain who came after me in the, in the DMs, that Ruby got to be known as someone who didn't ask neighbors if it was okay to film others in the neighborhood. And then just generally speaking, neighbors saying, we really loved Kevin. We never had a beef with Kevin. It was only with Ruby. She was. She always had a camera with her. She had her bright clothing, but she wasn't friendly. She didn't host parties. She didn't bring people together. She was just always busy keeping to herself, filming everything, not asking people for permission. And that she felt like her channel was more important than relationships with the neighbors.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:45:13] I love this edit. I love this edit because there is this idea like they show this beautiful Springville and how it's this family centered place and then they, you know, they've gone to the therapist already and said, like, I don't know how to say this, but there's this, you Know, there's this perfectionism thing. You know, they've already set that stage, and people are, you know, hiding, like, this idea of perfection, and they're in this box, and then you have the neighbors come out. And, you know, I'm sure this was an edit. I'm sure that the neighbors had hours and hours of interviews. So, like, nothing to. Let's call this an edit. Nothing negative to the neighbors, but it was showing a really catty side and a really judgmental side of these neighbors. I thought it was a great moment. I think the edit was on purpose, and it showed the judgmental, perfectionist way of. Of Mormonism. And that is a part of Mormon culture. Being Mormon, I can say that, like, profoundly like the. This idea that they are judging Ruby because she doesn't host parties and she's not like them, and she wears bright lipsticks. I mean, I was doing an eye roll during this. And like I said, I'm not necessarily blaming the neighbors because I actually thought a lot of what they said later on was profound, and they added so much to this. And it was clearly an edit, in my opinion, for this purpose, to show sort of this. I thought it was pretty catty.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] Mormon Megan's laughing and smiling.

Megan Connor [01:46:37] I. I laughed out loud when I. When I saw that that particular neighbor, she didn't even throw any parties. I mean, that was rude.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:46:44] You know, I.

Megan Connor [01:46:45] But I also. I would have been. I would have been sort of that person, too. Like, I didn't have a camera out all the time, but, you know, I was busy. I kept to myself. I. I knew my neighbors. We did talk from time to time, but I wasn't the type of person to, you know, throw parties or attend socials because I was too busy with other things. But I think at that level of affluence, there absolutely is an expectation, and especially, particularly in this neighborhood, apparently, that you socialize and you engage with your neighbors and you throw parties, apparently.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:18] I think that was the. The main point that she was trying to make with that. I'll. I'll defend that line a little bit. I don't think it was like, there's a requirement that you have to throw parties. I think she. She was just trying to illustrate that maybe that's a way that people in this neighborhood show that they're willing to get to know their neighbors is by hosting something once in a while, then they're, you know. It was an interesting edit, but I think it was more to illustrate that Ruby was clearly out in the neighborhood with her camera all the time, but didn't do some of these things that perhaps the other members of the neighborhood would do to, you know, reach out and try to develop some, you know, even if they're superficial friendships, to try to develop some. Some rapport with the neighborhood, particularly if you're going to be out and about showing other people's houses and all of your videos. I think that was the point of the parties.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:48:07] I think you're right. Well, I think you're right. I think that that probably was also what the neighbors were asked and what they were trying to portray in that moment. So it could just be how I'm interpreting it. But I'll be honest, I was thinking, I've never liked Ruby more than in this moment, but she's like, no parties. Yeah. Ruby just came. Just became the most likable she's ever been to me then in that moment, because I was like, yeah, she just, like, keeps herself. She does her own thing. She's wearing bright lipstick.

Megan Connor [01:48:29] She doesn't throw parties.

John Dehlin [01:48:31] That's a feature, not a bug.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:48:34] But I think you're right. That's probably why the neighbors were saying it. And I. I probably took it in my own way.

Megan Connor [01:48:40] And I. I don't mean to. You know, I. I've been, as I'm sure all of us have been the victim of an edit or two, you know, to have things sort of spun in a certain direction. So I do have some compassion for that, for sure. So I'm not meaning to pick on this. On this neighbor for that reason, but I do think it's really like you were saying, Lauren. It's so indicative of the culture, of the expectation of the engagement. And it's sort of seen as a sign of generosity to host people in your home.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:08] Right.

Megan Connor [01:49:08] And to be a part of the neighborhood, especially in a place where, as you were saying, John, where they don't. They don't move away, they just home hop. Because it's the. It's about the neighborhood and the socializing.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:18] Right.

John Dehlin [01:49:20] One thing I noticed in sort of the progressive post Mormon world is just the reality of jealousy.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] That there's a lot of people that want to sort of get connected with you for the opportunities for fame or visibility. And then there's people who think they could do a better job than you, or there's just. You don't have time sometimes for all the people that want to spend time with you. And oftentimes that can breed people who are envious. I could do better. I would be a better representative. She's a hypocrite, whatever. It is sort of this catty jealousy. And I wondered whether some of the neighbors maybe harbored some jealousy or envy that they wanted more exposure and facetime and they weren't able to get it. Obviously that's speculating, but I've seen enough of that mean spirited envy and jealousy that. And I have heard behind the scenes that there are neighbors who weren't included in some of these documentaries that were upset that other neighbors were included, but that they weren't.

Megan Connor [01:50:28] You can't win.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:29] Right. So I mean, I have a hard time. I think that is speculation and I think that you could be onto something there. I, I'm having a hard time like speaking negatively about the neighbors just because I just think they were so critical and trying to help the kids at the end and like, you know, maybe there's these neighborhood dynamics and maybe there's some jealousy or whatever. Maybe they felt she was standoffish and it could be more things than that. But they were just so critical and you know, critic. Not critical to Ruby, but critical in their role towards the end of the story.

Megan Connor [01:51:04] Yeah, it was the neighbors who alerted Sherry to what was going on in the home. So she was able to get DCFS involved.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:51:11] So.

Mindy Caldwell [01:51:12] And according to one of the neighbors, at least on a Facebook post that I saw, they were so many calls, many, many people called. It wasn't just like a one time call or a couple times. It just sounded like it was this ever present thing in the neighborhood for quite a while and people were very kind concerned.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:51:26] You just made me realize another reason for this edit probably was to show look, they couldn't do much. Yeah, like they're saying like this is how she came across to us, this is how it was. And that was pretty much it. And they were weird. And so we were kind of on the sidelines, but we weren't super involved and like, yeah, like we couldn't get through to see the kids. So you actually also just gave me another reason that they probably had this edit to explain the dynamics between the neighbors and how until the end they really couldn't do much.

Megan Connor [01:51:56] Ruby didn't reach out for help from the neighbors. She didn't ever really talk to them about what was going on in the home. You know, it's, it's not like they had a relationship where one of the neighbors could have called Ruby and said, hey, I'm really worried about your kids. Because Ruby had already isolated herself and the family kind of from the rest of the community.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:52:15] This is where we need Lisa, in the DMs that you mentioned, like, you know, we talk to us.

John Dehlin [01:52:21] The band would love to interview you, Lisa. I will say also that when you live, I'll just say I. I will never have the fame that Ruby Frankie had, but in Utah, I get recognized. Most of the time I'm out and, you know, most of my neighbors know that Margi and I have a YouTube channel. And it's scary. It can change your mind about when you meet people because number one, you have to be careful because if your reputation, your Persona is whatever it is, you're always vulnerable to people you meet saying, I worked for John and he was a jerk, or I knew John's kids and then they're talking about your kids on social media in ways that are not healthy for your kids kids or people spreading lies. And so you can tend to want to insulate and keep to yourself just as a matter of protection and survival. And also just time is so limited. It's really. You got, you know, Lauren, Megan too. It takes everything to try and create a regular release schedule of content. And so it has absolutely been normal for me to work 80, 90 hours a week for most of the past 20 years. Because you're never off. You're always thinking of your next episode. Scheduling interviews, planning stuff, releasing stuff, working on the edits, monitoring comments, monitoring emails, trying to make ends meet to fundraise. And so I guess in Ruby's defense, now it's really, really, really hard. And then on top of that, you're trying to be a parent and to try to keep your marriage afloat. And you probably have colleagues in the church, so you. Maybe she just didn't have time to hang out with the.

Megan Connor [01:54:15] Right.

John Dehlin [01:54:15] The coffee clutch as, as it's called in other cultures, you know, in the neighborhood.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:54:19] Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think, like I said, like, maybe that was it too. Like I, I never liked her more than I was. Like, dude, girl, I get you. I feel I'm. I'm there.

John Dehlin [01:54:26] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:54:27] And then once you do achieve a level of, of success, there's a lot of pressure to maintain it, you know, to continue to put out more, better content, to continue to maintain the same number of views or to grow your channel or. Yeah, it's just the pressure becomes really, really big.

John Dehlin [01:54:44] Yeah. Like I've never done an endorsement deal ever and I don't know that ever will. I don't want that pressure of having to sell what the vibrators or whatever. Like, will they. Whatever it is, ex morbid. Influencers are all selling vibrators.

Megan Connor [01:54:59] Endorsement offer, Washu.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] I don't know, like, what should I pick? Like, the point is I don't want to be hawking. I don't want the pressure of having to sell volume. Plus I don't like to taint the programming, you know what I mean? So anyway, it's just a lot of pressure and the more money you make, the more you feel the pressure to grow. And it's, it's a treadmill.

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] Do you feel that, Lauren? That it's ever a treadmill?

Megan Connor [01:55:24] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:55:25] Yeah. Megan, do you ever feel it's a treadmill?

Megan Connor [01:55:27] Yeah. I mean, now that this is my full time thing, you know, I, I, it's a learning curve. I was unprepared for a lot of it and I'm still figuring it out. And I do feel a pressure to at least maintain the number of videos and the quality of videos as I've done in the past. And then of course, the goal is always to grow, to reach more people for me because I think the message is important. Right. But also it's now my livelihood. So now I have to walk that line between content balancing, family, being a single mom, all of, all of that. It's, it's a lot.

John Dehlin [01:56:02] People are joking with me in the comments that there's some Freudian slip that I said vibrators. It's not. When Kara Burrell, you know, started doing brand deals, her first brand deal was with vibrators. Alyssa Grenfell has done vibrator endorsement.

Megan Connor [01:56:15] Lives of Mormon Wives.

John Dehlin [01:56:15] Secret Lives of Mormon Wives did vibrators and is off on the shelf with Samantha. They recently did vibrators. It's like the go to. I don't know why it's like the

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:56:24] go to that I've never been approached by a vibrator. I've been approached by a good amount of codes, but never have never a vibrator.

Megan Connor [01:56:32] Nor have I. And I don't know what the problem is. I'm offended.

John Dehlin [01:56:35] Well, just wait 10 minutes.

Megan Connor [01:56:37] Maybe I'll just, maybe I should throw some more parties.

Mindy Caldwell [01:56:39] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:56:40] No, it's a thing. Just so you know, interesting. And I was trying to be funny as well. Okay. The next segment was on the kids getting sort of like disturbed and disconnected from the constant videoing of Ruby and Chad misbehaving and, and, and Sherry not being happy with it. Of, of. There's this one point where Ruby suggests that the kids are losing their light when really they're just annoyed. They can't just have a family vacation or a. A family moment without it being filmed.

Content Shifts and Growing Public Concern

Mindy Caldwell [01:57:15] And this is when the content was changing too, where Ruby. Ruby was starting to highlight, like, really personal and vulnerable and embarrassing things. And that could be part of their dissatisfaction with the whole process and who knows what. I don't know if they were having videos like that early, early on, but at least at this point in the timeline and in the docu series, that's where the neighbors were noting that they were noticing these embarrassing, vulnerable, personal videos being posted. And I think that added to their concern that Ruby's aloof. They can't get to know her, but then they're kind of getting to know the family through watching what Ruby posts. And it's, it's not, you know, it's. It doesn't cast the kids always in the best light. And I think Chad gets highlighted for starting to be misbehaving, and I think that's part of it too. Yeah, maybe that's the pressure of the content you were mentioning. Like, you got to keep coming up with content, so let's, let's like, stage these embarrassing scenarios for our kids, and that's going to get a lot of views.

Megan Connor [01:58:16] Yeah. This is the part that I found so disturbing is that obviously, as not an eight Passengers watcher in the past. Right. I didn't really know exactly what the content was, but I was sort of imagining what it. What it must be. And so thinking to myself, well, their first very viral video was the baby crawling out of the crib. So that could be seen as like, oh, what's going on there parenting wise? You know, do you not have that locked down in a different way or whatever? But the other part of it was seeing the thumbnails from some of their most popular videos and their kids wetting the bed, kids starting to shave for the first time, shopping for bras with their brother. Those are the kind of things that, you know, when, when I was on Facebook early on, I tried to be really careful about not documenting everything that my kids were doing. And I certainly would not have publicly made a post about any of those topics about my kids. And if I had ever done anything remotely like that, they would have called me out on it and been like, that's not okay. I don't want that online. Please don't share that. You know, even something as benign as my. My oldest daughter getting her driver's license, she didn't want me to post about it, so I didn't. You know, there's something to be said for Kids maintain. Maintaining their privacy. I know this is going to be an ongoing theme, but until I saw those thumbnails, I didn't realize how personal and invasive it was.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] Yeah. And as I'm reflecting on some of the parts of the story, it's like I. I didn't know, for example, that Chad had been expelled. That. Did y' all know that Chad had been expelled from his school?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:59:54] Well, you learned that in Sherry's. Doesn't she mention that in her book?

John Dehlin [01:59:57] I don't remember.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [01:59:58] Yeah, because then he went to the New School.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] I remember the New School. I didn't. For some reason, I didn't remember the expense, but maybe you did. Maybe you did. I don't. Do you know why he was expelled? Do we know what he did?

Megan Connor [02:00:07] Well, they said that Sherry made reference to him continually getting. Having discipline, you know, getting suspended, which leads to expulsion.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:00:18] Yeah. I can't recall what it was, but I remember thinking it wasn't, you know, it was like a group of boys just kind of being rowdy, I think. I don't think it was anything too extreme. I do think Sherry mentioned it in her book.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] Okay.

Megan Connor [02:00:32] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:00:33] If I'm wrong, I'm, you know, then, you know, welcome to just my age. But I. That's what I recall. And I don't think it was too big of a deal. It was like just sort of. He was loud, he, you know, was sort of goofy. He was a goofball. He was a class clown.

John Dehlin [02:00:50] Yeah. But do we. Do we get a sense that Chad, I mean, the teenage rebellion is totally normally normal? So we would be speculating, but I mean, you do kind of get the impression that the kids. It's starting to wear thin, the pressure and the stress and the annoyance of being social media influencers. Certainly the kids, both Chad and Sherry would have. It would have impacted their friend groups and their relationships as high schoolers. Because high school, again, is hard enough to be a high schooler that's sort of a nationally famous or even a world famous influencer. That's a. That's a lot for a kid to have to deal with.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:01:35] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:01:36] And so you just get the sense that with, with. With Chad being suspended, with this discussion of him going to Anasazi, kind of like a. A wilderness camp, of even them bringing Jody Hildebrandt into the picture. And we all know that Sherry wasn't loving it from reading her book. She was not loving. She. She. There's part of her that was loving the attention, but she was not loving her relationship with her mom. You just get the sense the kids are starting to misbehave. It's starting to wear thin. And for me, the, one of the most emotional moments of the whole three part series was when Ruby's sitting next to Chad and he's not participating in that conversation she wants to have about his pioneer ancestry. And she says, fake it, fake being happy. And then he kind of stares off into the distance and says, I just don't know if I can.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:02:30] That was so sad and so authentic. And I think that, you know, I feel bad for Chad even in the aftermath of all this. I don't see anything that he did as a teenager as abnormal. I see him as a really, really good kid, a very good kid, even a good teenager. And at that moment, this, that was authenticity. He was saying, I don't think I can. He literally was saying, like, I know that you're a robot mom and you can somehow, you know, you have been trained to do this and everything's a formula, but I have a bit of authenticity left and I don't think I can. I think that was the moment also where you're, you're going to see that Chad continues to fight back because, because he is authentic. And even in the aftermath, I've, I've seen some interviews now post this documentary coming out with, with Chad Frankie and, and even during the documentary, I feel bad for him where he says, I don't know why I was misbehaving, I'm just not sure. And even then my heart breaks through because I'm like, you. You weren't like, you are just not being a robot and you're not buying this whole. Again, obedience is love and love is obedience. That's such. I, I hate that. I hate that that was a focus throughout this whole thing. But Chad is simply being an authentic teenager who is goofy, who is rebelling in the most subtle of ways, saying, I'm going to do things my own way, which is so healthy. And I can tell that he still questions it somehow today. And that was the moment too, where you're right, that was such an emotional moment. I don't think I can. It's saying that he's got a little bit of self still there. He's got, he's got a sense of self that Ruby does not have anymore. And yet Chad, Frankie has it in the moment saying, I don't think I can with such a profound way of saying, you know, keep that. And I think that what was happening as a teenager, she was maintaining that sense of self and Saying I, you know, I just got to do things my own way.

Mindy Caldwell [02:04:24] And clearly he had made it clear that he was very aware that he was very popular on the channel. And that had to have added extra pressure on Chad to, you know, maybe that was the root of some of this misbehavior or wanting to push back and not always wanting to perform because perhaps he felt a little bit more pressured than maybe any of the other children that he had to always be on and always be happy. And I agree that that, that scene where, where she told him to fake being happy was so heartbreaking.

Megan Connor [02:04:56] Yeah, yeah. And what I remember from the book too, is that is just what you both are saying is that Chad was just a regular kid. He wasn't really doing anything that mischievous. I think when we talked about the book last time, we, we determined his big sin was ruining the content. Right. That's what Ruby was really upset about, was him ruining their, their brand video and, you know, that he wasn't really misbehaving. And they sent him to all these therapists saying, fix my son. And they were all telling Ruby, there's nothing wrong with him. We can't diagnose him. It's not. He, you know, he's too young for there to be a pathology to this. It's just him being a kid. And the way that I saw it was, you know, Ruby and Kevin are so focused on the channel and they're so focused on the success of that. There wasn't room for the kids, kids to be individuals and to have their own personalities and to be recognized and noticed and to be loved, really, you know, to be embraced. It was always about the channel. It was always about the content. And I saw it as, as Chad's way of trying to get some notoriety from his parents, like, please just love me.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:06:05] And I think, yeah, and I, I agree. And I think it was his way again of maintaining the sense of self. Now we know what Ruby wanted to fix this documentary. She wanted pure and perfect obedience from him. And him not having that perfect obedience was saying, I am maintaining a sense of self, something you don't have. And that's simply all it was, you know, like, God bless you, Chad, for like, maintaining that sense of self. But Ruby, again, going back to that checklist, that color coded thing, everything's a formula, everything's obedience. And like, I think that as children get older, mothers that, that want, that obedience and that discipline really struggle because this is where their children start to become independent and say, this is who I am. And To Ruby. That was. That was absolutely not okay.

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:50] This is a quote from Chad in the documentary. I purpose. I purposefully said the wrong lines. I tried to make my mom as pissed as she possibly could be. I made things hard for her, and I don't know why. I think it goes back to. I really didn't like being told what to do. So he's pushing back about on that, like strict obedience. I wasn't even doing anything bad. I just wouldn't listen to adults, especially my teachers. And I think that's where the school problems were starting. But I think the, the root of it is him wanting some individuality and pushing back against this, like strict 100 perfect obedience.

Megan Connor [02:07:21] Yeah. I also saw in that video that clip of Chad, just a complete lack of compassion from Ruby whatsoever. When he says, I don't think I can. She says, well, you know what? We're gonna. And then it cuts off. As in, like, I'm gonna take a break. I'm gonna move away. Whereas I'm thinking about my. One of my own children saying, I just don't think I can do this. Oh my gosh, my heart would be breaking. There would be a hug. It's okay. You don't have to do this right now. You don't have to do it ever. You know, just take a break. Let's. Let's figure this out.

John Dehlin [02:07:53] And I think that ties to why Sherry and Kevin testified in front of the Utah legislature recently about changing Utah law around the use of children minors in influencing. And the basic argument is, is that it's abusive that a child can't consent. Just like in matters of sexuality, there's no such thing as child consent to sex because of power differentials and immaturity and the lack of development of a brain. And similarly, a child can't consent to being a child influencer. We're all aware of the. The cliche of the child actor in Hollywood, how being a child actor can ruin your life forever. Why would it be different for YouTube influencers?

Megan Connor [02:08:40] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] Possibly.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:08:41] Right. And even in Hollywood, you know, children are given breaks, you know, and, and there are some guidelines, but not in the homes of child influencers. I know. And for those of you, for those that don't know it, is this what you just brought up? E. The youngest victim of Ruby, Frankie, has started speaking out. She has spoken out for the first time. It was very profound, she said. And as an 11 year old, she wrote a letter for her dad to read for the Utah legislature, which some people were mad. Well, she's not speaking out. It's. It's her dad. Well, you know, it's because she's saying, you should stop filming me.

Mindy Caldwell [02:09:13] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:09:15] She said, I don't want to be on camera. I don't need to be on camera anymore. My dad. Dad can read a letter I wrote, but let me tell you, I wrote it. And her insight was so profound. Not only the things that are obvious. She's saying I can't make friends. I don't feel like anybody likes me, and that I have to do something profound to get attention. I feel like I have to act out and say, look at me and do something to get attention. Even just something as small as that, like they are taught. She has been taught to perform since birth, and now she just assumes no one likes her unless she is performing or doing something grand to get the attention she deserves. You know that the thumbnail is pointing out that she is doing.

Megan Connor [02:09:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:54] A couple comments that I just thought I would also add. Carrie Ann, I think this is a quote from the documentary. Y' all Remind Me where. Where Ruby says to one of the kids, just be yourself. And then the kid says, this is myself. And then Ruby says, well, then change it.

Megan Connor [02:10:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:13] Is that right?

Mindy Caldwell [02:10:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:14] Is that from.

Mindy Caldwell [02:10:15] I think that's one of the middle daughters.

John Dehlin [02:10:16] Yeah. Thank you, Carrie, for that. Cindy validates you, Lauren. She says it was in Sherry's book. I think Chad's being expelled.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:10:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:27] And it was because he did some clowning around stuff like throwing something at a buddy and then it hits a teacher. That's what.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:10:33] That's right. In the cafeteria or something. I think he tried to throw something, hits a teacher selling drugs or something. Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:10:39] And then this is interesting. We may or may not have thoughts on it. Analytical one says, personally, I would have liked more focus on Sherry in the doc and a lot less on Kevin. And I. I noticed that Sherry was maybe the least prominent.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:10:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:55] But I also. We had just finished her entire biography, so there's a part of me that felt like I already knew her story. So I was interested in hearing the other people's perspective. Did y'? All.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:11:05] I noticed that. I noticed and I thought the same thing. She has her biography and she had her own voice. Because I. I'm. I'm totally speculating here, but I'm gonna suggest that there was some different filming moments, too, because as we know from Sherry's book, she refers to Kevin as Kevin and Ruby as Ruby. And that there were definitely issues that she had with her father, Kevin, and how he treated her. Even aft in the aftermath. And I have, you know, and I know that I believe that Chad, Frankie has moved home. The children are now home. Because Kevin talks about that in a recent Good Morning America interview. I don't believe that. I don't believe that Sherry ever went home. So I'm going to suggest that there might have even been some separate filming involved here. That's me speculating, but I would assume that not all is well with the Frankie dynamics or family's probably forever changed. Will certainly forever changed. So there might be that reason that there was more collaboration with the other family members.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] They do mention that they have the Sunday ritual now of having dinner together. And. And Sherry and Chad. Chad's living with Kevin now.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:12:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:12:11] Just to jump to the end and that they have Sunday dinner and maybe she is.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:12:15] Yeah. I don't. I don't want to assume anything because that would be offensive. I. I don't know. Just. I just wonder for reading Sherry's book.

John Dehlin [02:12:23] Sure. Really quickly, there's another comment. Speaking of the child star connection, I'd love to get the band's perspective on Jeanette McCurdy's memoir, I'm glad My Mom Died.

Mindy Caldwell [02:12:37] Oh, that's such a good book.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:12:38] That's a great example of this.

Mindy Caldwell [02:12:41] With a Mormon background on that. That story as well.

John Dehlin [02:12:45] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:12:46] Maybe another time we can talk about that.

Megan Connor [02:12:48] Yeah, that could be the next one.

John Dehlin [02:12:50] They're requesting episodes of us. That means. Means we're a thing.

Megan Connor [02:12:53] Yeah, I think.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:12:54] Do we have a name yet? Do we have a name?

John Dehlin [02:12:56] So many names have come through.

Mindy Caldwell [02:12:57] I haven't been able to come through them after.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] Lots of names are coming through. I'm just trying not to derail our conversation too much, but great names are

Megan Connor [02:13:04] coming through here for a really long time.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:06] Thanks, friends.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:13:06] I switched my flight, by the way.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] Well, I'm buying you all dinner. Okay.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:13:13] Multitasking over here, so.

Jody Hildebrandt Enters the Picture

John Dehlin [02:13:16] All right. So anything else we want to say? I guess this is when Jody Hildebrandt gets introduced because it's Paige, Hannah. Like, they're having trouble with Chad. They sent him off to a wilderness camp. Frankly, I've talked about this before. This is when I, John De Lynn, started getting notices from my viewers and listeners. Hey, John, do you follow eight passengers? Did you know that there's. They sent their son Chad to a wilderness camp. And I'm like, who are eight passengers? Like, I had no idea that they even existed prior to the time Chad goes to a wilderness camp. And anyway, that's when Jody Hildebrandt gets introduced. To the family by Paige, Hannah. And then Chad comes back from the wilderness camp and starts counseling with Jody. We've covered a lot of this in our, in our Sherry Frankie episode, but anything we want to say about the introduction, by the way, is Devil in the Family. Who's that referencing? Is that. Huh.

Mindy Caldwell [02:14:20] I think they're wanting it to reference

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:14:21] Jody, but it could also be Ruby.

John Dehlin [02:14:23] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:14:24] It's the fall of Ruby Frankie. The devil in the family. The fall of Ruby Frankie. I definitely, I think is supposed to be Jody, but you can definitely ask Sherry.

Mindy Caldwell [02:14:36] It's Ruby.

John Dehlin [02:14:37] Right, but it's a double entendre. It might be a double entendre. Her.

Mindy Caldwell [02:14:41] Maybe.

John Dehlin [02:14:41] Yeah, maybe, maybe.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:14:42] I think the double. Yeah, the double.

Mindy Caldwell [02:14:44] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:14:47] Kevin says the devil knocked and we opened the door. The devil is supposed to be Jody.

Megan Connor [02:14:51] Supposed to be Jody, that's right.

John Dehlin [02:14:53] But also.

Mindy Caldwell [02:14:54] But Sherry says Satan's a person and. And Ruby crossed the line from abusive to psychotic and full on evil.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:15:01] That was a. That was an important quote from Sherry. Did we pass that already?

Mindy Caldwell [02:15:05] It was at the very, very beginning. We talked about it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:15:09] That was an important moment.

John Dehlin [02:15:10] Somebody else wrote that they felt the devil. This is like scripture, like lots of interpretations. Somebody else felt like the devil was YouTube. It was the money, it was the influencer.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:15:22] Yeah, well, you know, whoever you want it to be.

Mindy Caldwell [02:15:25] This is a four headed. We're gonna Devil, right?

Megan Connor [02:15:29] We're gonna get into some of the parallels between Ruby and Lori a little bit later on.

Mindy Caldwell [02:15:33] Yes.

Megan Connor [02:15:34] But I just want to say there was this narrative out there in some spaces that Ruby was fine until Jody came along. And we know that that's not true. And the same thing was said of Lori was fine until Chad came along. And we know that's not true. So the Ruby, the Ruby Jody, Devil connection. I agree with you, Lauren. Artistically, the devil was supposed to be Jody and the fall of Ruby was Jody.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:16:03] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:16:06] I mean.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:16:06] Yeah, the devil knocked and we opened the door. I mean, right?

Megan Connor [02:16:11] Yeah, but they, they paint. Yeah, they painted it in a particularly.

John Dehlin [02:16:14] I like the multiple meaning. That's more.

Mindy Caldwell [02:16:15] Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:16:17] Well, if devil is a metaphor for those that don't believe in a devil, you know, then you can just. The world is your oyster when it comes to this title, whatever you want it to mean.

Megan Connor [02:16:26] I also think I just, you know, when you said the devil is YouTube, I was like, oh, that's something I hadn't even really thought of because I think there's a tendency to vilify social media, to vilify the Internet, to Vilify vlogging. That's not the problem. The problem is unhealthy people using those platforms to spread unhealthy ideas and to demonstrate unhealthy relational dynamics. So, you know, just going back to my Mormon roots, right. Anything can be a tool for either good or evil, you know, and it's. It's. It's incumbent upon the person using the tool to use it in a healthy way.

John Dehlin [02:17:09] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:17:10] The hammer can build a wall or

Mindy Caldwell [02:17:11] tear down a wall.

Megan Connor [02:17:12] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:17:13] Don't blame the hammer. Blame how it's used. I don't know. I remember that metaphor in reference to morality, but that's another story. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] So as Jody gets introduced, you know, Paige says that Jody was influential, that Jody knew how to cut to the chase. Boy, did she. That, you know, that she'd worked at a prestigious drug rehab center, which is true. And then Brannon talks about working with Jody, that he was amazed, that he felt she was courageous and powerful, that Jody sold herself as having it figured out. And I. I don't think you can cure pornography and masturbation, but that's the biggest. One of the biggest nightmares of. Of any Mormon mom or wife or dad or husband or kid or church leader. So, like, you know, we've all talked about how she kind of monetized this Mormon terrorization around sexuality, but. But porn and masturbation by telling everyone that even the brethren, even the Mormon church leaders don't know how to solve this problem. Certainly Mormon bishops don't know how to solve this problem. They're not mental health professionals. But I, Jody Hildebrandt, I know how to solve this problem. I've got it figured out. And she used very totalistic, absolutist sort of language that was. Was effective as a businesswoman, and also very gutsy for a woman to march into a patriarchy who, by the way, was divorced, by the way, was estranged from her own children, and yet somehow she became everyone's marriage counselor and everyone's parenting counselor and everyone's therapist and everyone's child psychologist.

Megan Connor [02:19:04] Ironic.

John Dehlin [02:19:05] In a Mormon patriarchal paradigm, it's. I mean, I hate to say this, but you got to respect Jody for her. I don't want to say balls. That's. That's. That's a bad analogy. But very gutsy woman. Right?

Megan Connor [02:19:17] Right. Gutsy.

John Dehlin [02:19:18] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:19:18] There. I've brought this interview up a couple times, but it was a really interesting interview to me. After this fact, Chad, Frankie, and Kevin went on Good Morning America, and it was a really interesting interview, but he. He Talked about that. He said. That was really interesting to me, where he said what we liked about Jody. Jody was very authoritarian. I don't think he said authoritarian, but he said authoritative. Authoritative. But to me, that's okay. An authoritarian, you know, worldview where someone has all the answers. She was very authoritative, and that's why we liked her. And then, you know, she kept going, and she kept going, and then. And then Chad says, I thought of her as a God. I mean, I think that there is sort of this authoritarian worldview where people want somebody to have all of the answers. In the Frankie family's culture was certainly authoritarian. They wanted one person to have all the answers. And I think that that is who Jody appealed to, were the families who wanted someone to have all of the answers. And what better person than Jody Hildebrand to be like, oh, yeah, you know, I have all of the answers.

Jody's Influence and Early Warning Signs

Megan Connor [02:20:25] Can we talk about the first phone call that Chad has with Jody? Yeah, this was. I. This was so eye opening to me, because, you know, Chad, I. I remember from Sherry's book that Sherry pointed out that Chad knew how to manipulate. He knew how to get the clicks and the likes and the views. And so Ruby sets up a phone call with Chad and Jody, and he's like, all right, I'm. I'm ready. Let's. Let's go. If this is going to get me back in everyone's good graces, you know, let's do it. And. And Jody says to Chad, are you ready? Are you ready to start being a responsible adult, you know, taking responsibility for your actions? He goes, absolutely, yes, I totally am. And Jody says, you're lying. And Chad says he just froze. Because for someone to know that you're lying and actually call you out on it and say it out loud, that was something that hadn't been done in his experience, and he was stunned by it.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] But also that Ruby was smirking.

Megan Connor [02:21:26] Yeah, right, right.

Mindy Caldwell [02:21:27] Because.

Megan Connor [02:21:27] Because Ruby had been trying to sell this idea of Jody. Ruby had already fallen in love with Jody's dogma. And with her rhetoric and all of that, she was trying to convince Kevin that this was the right person to help with Chad. And as soon as Jody calls Chad out for his manipulation, Ruby sort of smirks and looks at Kevin and was like, see, I told you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:21:51] She's.

Megan Connor [02:21:51] She knows what she's talking about.

Mindy Caldwell [02:21:53] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] And she was frustrated that she had not been able to tame Chad.

Megan Connor [02:21:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:57] And here was a woman willing to call Chad out.

Megan Connor [02:21:59] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:00] Chad said, Jody kind of read through me, and that really excited My mom, that there's finally someone out there who's gonna. Who wasn't gonna take my bull crap anymore. She was hooked onto her from that moment on. And Kevin said, after that first call, Jody said, he needs an outcome. He needs an outcome for the way he showed up in that meeting. He's running circles around you and your wife. And so that's when things get really strict for Chad. More things, restrictions. The. Maybe the next section we can talk about is the. Is the beanbag incident, because that's kind of after. So that is big. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:22:33] I'll just say, as someone who did complete a six year clinical counseling psychology PhD, so much of what Jody did was unethical. You would never, ever say to someone you're lying when they express to you.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:22:48] Right.

John Dehlin [02:22:49] Anything.

Megan Connor [02:22:50] Right.

John Dehlin [02:22:50] You would say, huh, tell me more about that. Or what makes you say that? Or. Or let's explore that more, you know, but you would never. That's like Dr. Phil kind of top cultural psychology. Tough person.

Megan Connor [02:23:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:02] But you would never be trained to ethically respond to a client that way, let alone a freaking teenager.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:23:09] Correct.

Megan Connor [02:23:10] Lauren, can you imagine Dr. John ever, ever calling out one of his people he's reviewing and just saying, you're lying.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:23:17] No. Nor me, nor son.

John Dehlin [02:23:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And again, the mixed relationships of. Of upselling as a therapist from Chad to Ruby to Kevin to Ruby and

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:23:33] Kevin, whole families and not have that be a conflict of interest.

John Dehlin [02:23:38] And then the groups and I mean, it was just a huge upsell.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:23:41] It was, you know, making your patients mental fitness trainers. So they're also working for you and

John Dehlin [02:23:49] your clients and you're monetizing your. Your patients.

Mindy Caldwell [02:23:51] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] This is like scales.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:23:54] I want to bang my head against the wall sometimes just thinking about it, like, how. How did this happen?

Megan Connor [02:23:59] But, yeah, this is skipping ahead just a little bit. But at the beginning of the second episode, the. The therapist. What was his name? Brandon. Patrick. Patrick. Thank you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:24:09] He.

Megan Connor [02:24:09] He comments that that connections was a way for Jody to scale her business. Not her therapy practice, her business. You know, and so it's just as you're saying, she would treat one family member, and then all of a sudden, all the family members needed to be treated. And then there was group and there was always something more. Something more. Thousands and thousands of dollars. And a lot of the men who have come forward to comment on Jody's therapy practices have. Have said they felt that their families were at stake. They felt if they didn't spend these thousands of dollars and engage in the group in the ways that Ruby, or. Sorry. Jody, wanted them to. That they were going to lose their children and their wives and. And their entire families. And so it was very high stakes, very high finance to make sure that they kept their families intact.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] Yeah. And jumping to the beanbag incident, I just thought it was interesting that, like, it got to the point where Kevin and Ruby were threatening Chad that he was gonna have to go to a military school back east. Like, it got really serious.

Mindy Caldwell [02:25:13] He said it was Ruby and Jody came up with the idea.

John Dehlin [02:25:17] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [02:25:17] For the military.

John Dehlin [02:25:19] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [02:25:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:19] Thank you for that correction. But also, I got the sense that Chad developed a good relationship in his mind with Jody, even though the super toxic and unhealthy and unethical that. Before the beanbag incident happens, Chad had kind of been tamed. He saw the writing on the wall. He knew it was. It was like, either change or be shipped off. He built a relationship with Jody that he liked. He felt like he loved and valued and respected her and that it was mutual. And then. That doesn't. Don't. Ruby, Mindy, you'll know this. Didn't. Didn't Ruby and Kevin say things were better? Kevin and. I mean, Chad started behaving.

Mindy Caldwell [02:26:03] Sherry said it. Sherry said her mom was yelling less. Every. By all accounts, things were doing better in the family. There was less contention. For a time. It seemed more peaceful. Like Ruby was internalizing some of the things, and it was going better. And one of the most surprising insights of the whole documentary, while we're talking about Chad, was just how fondly he felt towards Jody, even towards the end.

John Dehlin [02:26:29] Yeah. Five years.

Mindy Caldwell [02:26:30] I mean, we can get. Do you not agree? Maybe.

Megan Connor [02:26:32] Well, I. I'm just really curious about everyone's opinion because it struck me as very odd that so many times he said that he loved Jody. Now, I have a great deal of respect for my therapist, but I would never say, oh, I love my therapist. I really wanted to please my therapist. No, that's.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] Therapist would never want their client to

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:26:56] love them or please them or please them.

John Dehlin [02:26:59] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:26:59] But I think as we've been talking about, the lines got so blurry with the Frankie family and Jody. It clearly went way outside the bounds of a normal therapist client relationship. So I think him saying he loved her is because she lived at their house. She was like a member. She was like the driver of the eight passengers. Right. And so.

Megan Connor [02:27:19] Which is kind of my point too. Right. But I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one that found that odd.

Mindy Caldwell [02:27:24] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:27:24] That he was Expressing love for his therapist.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:27:27] Well, and I felt like that's where I have, like, compassion for Chad in the end, too. It seems like he still doesn't understand why he was rebellious. And, like, I think that he knew that his family or his mother wanted perfect obedience. He knew that was his family culture, this sort of authoritarian way he was raised in. Somehow he couldn't please his parents, but he could maybe, like, communicate with Jody. Like, yeah, you're right. That is interesting. Like, she was probably some parentification and like, oh, okay. I love Jody. Like, she's the one that can, like, help me figure out how to please my real parents. Going to the back to Kevin, in Kevin saying, it was a lot better with Jody, I want to say that I have talked to a lot of other clients. Do you see patients or clients of Jody? Do you see clients? Is that the.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] So patients are for medical doctors. And a psychiatrist would say patient. A psychologist or a marriage family therapist or social worker would say client.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:28:20] Thank you. I've gone to both words, trying to remember. So I have a brother that's a psychiatrist and a husband that's a psychologist. Okay, so a client. So I've talked to many other ex clients of Jody or people that knew ex clients Jody, and a lot of them have said that their life got better in many ways, and a lot of them don't want to talk, talk publicly. You've probably had the same experience, John, you know, talking to people. But I do find that interesting. And I think that's one really important aspect, again, of an abusive relationship. I want to bring up again, the devil doesn't come, you know, dressed in a red cape. It comes with everything you've ever wanted in. Abusive relationships don't happen because it's not good and there aren't good things to happen. So it's a really important point, again, I want to make is good things can happen with an abusive person, which sort of muddies the waters and makes the victim and the person being abused very confused because there's a mix of good and bad. They aren't the only ones that said that certain aspects of their life improved. But the irony of Jody is because certain aspects of their life improved, then she becomes a God and she is the end all, be all. And then once things get bad, because she'll turn it bad. She turned it bad for Kevin by saying, you know what, Kevin? You're failing now. So once things got good, just like a classic abuser, that's where the masks comes off. And then they start saying, but now you're misbehaving, and now you're bad. And then the. The victim, or in this place, the client is jumping through hoops to try to get back to what was good. I'm jumping ahead, but I just think this is really important that, like, it was good for a moment. It was good for a moment. Other clients of Jody Hildebrandt have said the same. And I. That doesn't mean that she wasn't an abuser and that she had bigger plans in state.

Mindy Caldwell [02:30:06] Great points, Lauren.

The Beanbag Incident and Ruby's Public Apology

John Dehlin [02:30:08] Okay, so someone's asking, who hasn't seen any of this? Well, what was the beanbag incident? So, Mindy, do you want to or.

Mindy Caldwell [02:30:15] Sure. Let me just see what they said about it. So Chad had been. Had been counseling with Jody for. For some time, several months. And. And referring to the previous part where she's like, he's running circles around you. He needs some consequences. And one of those consequences was at the time that he lost a lot of privileges. He lost electronics. And one of the main privileges he lost was to have his own bedroom. And so that's when he moved to the basement and was forced to sleep on a beanbag for seven or eight months. And so Kevin says he was not complaining anymore about his sessions with Jody. I remember just thinking, he. He's fixed. He's polite, he's grateful. This is great. Ruby and I both were like, okay, I think you're ready to have the privilege back of a bedroom. That was the spark that blew the powder keg. And so then it shows the video that started all of this, where it's Ruby and Chad sitting up next against a wall. And. And Chad kind of. Chad says, I know my bedroom was taken away for seven months, and you gave it back just a couple weeks ago. And you can. Can see Ruby's face. She just kind of has this realization, like, it's an eek moment for sure. And she says, I don't think our viewers know that. And Sherry says, you've been sleeping. Or somebody off camera says, you've been sleeping on a beanbag. And Chad said, I've been sleeping on a beanbag. And they gave me my room back, like, two weeks ago. And so when they released that video, she still. Ruby still released the video even after that kind of awkward moment where she realized she's going to be exposed for this thing that she did with chad. Then the YouTube comments just started going crazy, crazy. And everyone was scrambling. Ruby takes the video down, and like Kevin says, I think Ruby was unprepared for what was for the torrent of pure hatred that came through the door. So that's the beanbag incident.

John Dehlin [02:32:10] And I remember being told that, and I'm going to be totally honest, first of all, of course we would never do that to our kids. I had heard friends of mine who took the doors off their teenage children's room. You just nodded, you just kind of shook your head.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:32:31] I've heard of that too, and I shook my head. I think it depends why. I've heard people doing that when there's maybe someone that's, you know, suicidal. And that's understandable. Yeah. Self harm at risk. And that makes sense. But to like take hinges off, to not give the child privacy as a whole.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:49] And Ruby clearly states somewhere in the documentary, children are not, are not entitled to any privacy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:56] Jody or Ruby or both.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:58] I think Ruby said it on some video that I saw.

John Dehlin [02:33:01] Perhaps Jody too, so. And when I've had friends that I've talked to who took the doors off their children's bedrooms, sometimes it was because they were hiding screens. They had little iPads or iPhones playing video games. And there's also. I've heard it used in the context of not wanting a kid to masturbate. And so they just wanted them to never be, you know, minimally alone. But anyway, when I heard about the beanbag, it registered to me as like unkind or problematic, but not sort of like on the level of calling dcfs not because we would have ever done that. It's just that's not what triggered my mind is that that's like dcf, DCFS reports your children to the authorities level. Was it? Was that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:33:52] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:33:53] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:33:53] I don't think there's anything you can do. There's no thing. There's nothing that says. And if a child isn't given, I mean, maybe I'm wrong, their own private bedroom, you know, we're going to take your kid away. But I also think that's interesting what you've learned from, you know, your friends that have taken door hinges off their children's bedrooms before too. Like, was that the reason don't even give them a bed, just give them a beanbag. You know, like, what's, what's that about?

Mindy Caldwell [02:34:17] Right. I think the context is important, the whole picture, because maybe the isolated, having your kids sleep on a beanbag, it's something I would never do as a parent. But that was one of many things that had become problematic for eight passengers viewers. We'd had the incident where the youngest daughter forgot to take her lunch to school. And Ruby proudly proclaims that her child needs to learn accountability and responsibility and that she will not be taking a lunch to her child like her first grader and told the teacher, please do not give my child any food. I mean, that's just one. There were several instances, I think, leading up to the beanbag video. This did not come out of the blue, where Ruby was displaying some, you know, problematic, abusive, unkind traits on her videos that she was releasing. And so I think that it was. Kevin describes it as the powder keg. I think it was a buildup. And finally people are like. And Kevin, or maybe Chad was kind of the favorite. And so people were sensitive to, like, you shouldn't do that to Chad. And he'd been to the camp. And so there was just a lot going on leading up to that. I think people had just had enough. They're like, finally, like, these parents are crazy. And that's some of the things they were saying in the comments. But Kevin blamed the algorithm. He said the algorithm began to recognize, ooh, this is a hot topic. And everyone scrambles. And that's when Ruby took the video down. So perhaps people were seeing that video for the first time who didn't have any context to the eight passengers family. But however it came about, it was a terrible incident for their family and it changed eight passengers forever. That video.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:35:54] That was an important point you just brought up too, is after that happened and everyone started talking about the family, calling Ruby abusive, a horrible mother, rather than being introspective and saying, oh, maybe they're right. They perceived that they were victims. They blamed the algorithm, they blamed people trying to cancel them. They were a product of cancel culture and they did nothing. You know, this wasn't. This isn't us issue. It's a them issue. And that was a good moment in the documentary too, a good edit, where Kevin is saying this, you know, it was terrible. And then finally the interviewer states, well, do you think then now looking back, they could have been right?

Mindy Caldwell [02:36:38] Was it valid?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:36:39] Yeah. Was it valid? Yeah, take it away. I don't have the. No, I'm the only one that doesn't have notes in front of me.

Mindy Caldwell [02:36:44] No, you're fine. He said, you. Do you think the interviewer said, do you think they had a point? Any of it valid? And Kevin responds, from my perspective now, is any of it valid? And then he sigh and he says, sure, I think a lot of it was valid. So he acknowledges it now, the fact. Yeah, yeah.

Megan Connor [02:36:59] But I think it's also very Telling that they actually consulted an. An attorney about this. Like, what should we do about this situation? And the attorney suggestion was, maybe you should apologize. Maybe there should be a backtrack. Maybe. Maybe we should walk it back. And Ruby's response was, no, absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Mindy Caldwell [02:37:18] Yep.

Megan Connor [02:37:18] We're not going to apologize. And I thought that was. That was pretty wild, you know, to. To not be able to take any feedback from, you know, from the people who are watching your channel, to not consider any of it. Any of it as valid. And, of course, we. We all know you don't feed the trolls, right? You don't pay attention to the negative comments online. But. But when your viewers are consistently putting forth a message that's critical of something that you're doing, you do have to at least consider that in your overall picture of what you're producing. You know, and I think that a

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:37:52] lot of people have grace. You know, I. I've been really into the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni stuff these days, and we won't get into that. We'll do a whole other episode about that. But, like, later about that, I feel like, you know, I look at it in a PR perspective. I'm. I agree with you. Like, I think that people, viewers and listeners actually do have a lot of great grace when you make a mistake if you come out and you apologize. So I'm not. I'm not taking aside Justin or Blake, but I think that people, if you apologize, I think that there is a lot of grace involved and people can get canceled and come back. I think that's what Gen Z has taught us. You know, like, if you get canceled, maybe it was a good thing, but you can redeem yourself.

Megan Connor [02:38:29] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:38:29] And I think that people are willing to have people redeem themselves, but what they were saying is, we did nothing wrong, or Ruby is saying, we did nothing wrong. I am not going to apologize, and I am going to double down. And I think that double down is a moment, too, is like you're almost looking at someone that's about to be a criminal when you're saying, there's no way I'm going to apologize. And it reminds me when you said that she said, there's no way I'm right. I mean, all I can think of is moms of truth. Like, flashing and, like, light like moms of Truth. Like, I think this is her mom moment to say, I am right and I am going to carry this to the grave or. Or to prison, which, you know, it was prison, not the grave, but I think that was this moment, like, she was so narcissistic. She is not going to back down. Ruby knows best.

John Dehlin [02:39:13] We. A couple comments. Ruth Heath reminds us that even prisoners get beds. And JC says DCFS requires foster homes to have. Have a bedroom and a bed. And I think adoptive parents also are required to have beds. And our. Our point wasn't that we would ever be okay with people not having beds. It is kind of interesting that that's what caused, you know, the big unraveling is the bed, not the chopping off the dolly's head, not the telling the kindergarten daughter she can't have food. She can't have food because she forgot her lunch. It was the beanbag. But regardless, that's. That's what happened.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:39:56] The.

John Dehlin [02:39:56] Oh, go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [02:39:57] Oh, you go ahead. I'm. Where are you going? And then I'll add to it if you just.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] Just the way the episode one ends, and we're. We're two and a half hours, but it ends with sort of like the revelation that there was a lot of abuse.

Mindy Caldwell [02:40:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:40:13] That it wasn't just the beanbag. It was again, Ruby threatening to cut the doll's head off. It was Chad being spanked or whipped with the belt. You know, it's her yelling to Chad, take that look off your face. There's a. There's some sort of mention of Chad getting a bloody nose and Sherry helping

Mindy Caldwell [02:40:34] him wipe the blood off of the wall.

John Dehlin [02:40:36] Yeah, that whoop. That was.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:40:38] Yeah, that was. So that was a big moment.

Megan Connor [02:40:40] The last five minutes of this episode were unhinged. That's. That's the only way that I can really describe it. Ruby is off the walls and. And she's, you know, as John is describing. But that, to me was the most shocking thing that I heard was Sherry saying that Chad would get beaten pretty often, and one of the particularly bad times, she was helping him clean the blood off the walls. And that was stunning to me because, you know, we'd heard Sherry talk in her book about a hit to the lip or a slap to the back of the head. We never really heard anything about blood, you know, in. In Sherry's book as far as the, you know, Ruby's treatment of the kids early on and things like that. So to me, that was very shocking that that involves a hit of a level that is just, I mean, something I can't even really imagine a mom or a dad, you know, doing to their kid to hit them hard enough that they bleed and there's blood splatter on the wall. That's. That's a lot.

Kevin's Complicity and Episode One Conclusions

Mindy Caldwell [02:41:45] Yeah, I think a really important edit that happened in this final five or ten minutes of the first episode. We spoke before we started recording about a few of the edits from the production team that we found really interesting. And this one was the first one that I really noted. And that is when Kevin says, I've learned that there was. There was a lot. A whole lot of horror that was going on in the shadows and behind the scenes. And the very next clip is Ruby grabbing the face of the younger child and forcefully telling her, you get down and you be quiet. This isn't your turn now.

John Dehlin [02:42:21] Sit.

Mindy Caldwell [02:42:22] And Kevin's voice is heard saying, and cut. And you see his fingers come out and he makes a cut sound. And Ruby says, yeah, we're cutting that. And then it goes straight back to Kevin. And Kevin says, I had no idea that this was going on in my family. And the interviewer asks, did you really not? And Kevin has this, like, slow shake of his head, and he says, no, not to that extent. And I found that a brilliant edit, because clearly we just saw him videoing, participating, speaking in a video where one of the children is being treated abusively.

John Dehlin [02:42:56] So what do you make of that, Mindy? Is Kevin just bold face lying? Is he compartmentalized? Has he forgotten? Is it so much trauma that he's blocked it out? What I'd hear, I'd love to hear everyone's take, because a lot of people feel like Kevin was complicit or negligent.

Mindy Caldwell [02:43:12] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:13] But what'd you think?

Mindy Caldwell [02:43:14] I think Kevin was complicit and negligent. Maybe the incidents where blood was drawn, and perhaps he wasn't there for every single abusive incident. And I think sometimes in abusive families, some of the worst abuse can happen when one of the parents is not there, and then maybe the children are scared and don't want to tell. But clearly, Kevin was there for a lot of this. A lot of these incidents that were. That were on these videos. And so I. We have to push back on you, Kevin, on that one. Like, you were. You were there. You were part of it. And so I think saying that. That you. That you did not know things were to that extent, I mean, it's so hard to know without knowing the whole story. And when he was there and when he wasn't, what the kids were telling him, what they weren't. But it seems clear that there was a culture of yelling, of forcefulness, of strict obedience that Kevin was clearly a part of.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:44:12] Yeah, like, you know, you can say that he was desensitized, that he was abused by Ruby and always trying to please her. You can say that he was in denial. I think all those things could explain Kevin to some point in that family. But I agree with you. You can't ever use anything as an excuse to watch children being abused and not stand up for them. And in that sense, he was complicit.

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:38] I think it goes back to Kevin early on saying, I would do anything to make Ruby happy. And I think he even says it in his own words. At the end of the docu series, he said, I chose Ruby over my children. And these are illustrations of that happening, where her approval of him and her love for him, him hustling for her love and approval took over the concern for the kids. That's my perception.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:45:06] Yeah. And it's not an excuse.

Mindy Caldwell [02:45:08] Nope.

Megan Connor [02:45:09] Yeah. And I'm gonna. I'm gonna land, you know, right in the middle. In typical Libra fashion, I'm just gonna say that, you know, coming from an abusive home, growing up and having to recover from cptsd, having physical altercations nearly daily in my home for years growing up, there is a level of desensitization and a level of dissociation for me personally, where I came away from that, having conversations with my siblings later and saying, yeah, our childhood was kind of. I mean, it wasn't great. It wasn't terrible, you know, and this. This years later. Right. So I have a great deal of understanding for the idea that when something happens over and over, it becomes normalized. And for me as a child, thinking that was how normal families operated. However, Kevin, as the adult, that's different to me. And as the adult, it's your responsibility to set the tone. And when you are witnessing things that cross the line, to dial it back, to call it out, to step in and do something. And one of the things that I struggled with the most in my recovery was coming to terms with the adults who. Who could have done something, and they could have said something, and they chose not to because the consequences for them were too great at the expense of the children. And that I will always condemn.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:46:43] I think we're all in agreement.

Mindy Caldwell [02:46:44] Powerful.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:46:45] Powerful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:51] Yeah. There's a comment. People are loving our commentary here, so thanks to everyone. For those. For those shy. Those signs of support. Somebody wrote, why did the documentary give Kevin a pass? But then he goes on to. She goes on to say, and not show how he asked for Sherry to be arrested when she entered the home legally. So they're jumping ahead, timeline. But you Know, to me, the. The last comment I have for this episode is where Sherry says, and I'm paraphrasing, I wouldn't blame how far Ruby went on Jody. Jody set off things in Ruby that were already in her heart.

Mindy Caldwell [02:47:44] Yes.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:47:45] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:47] I thought that was a pretty powerful way to end part one.

Megan Connor [02:47:49] Yep.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:47:51] Well said. Agree.

John Dehlin [02:47:54] All right, so a lot of frustration with Kevin, weirdly. I mean, Ruby was clearly the main perpetrator of abuse, but I saw a lot of negative comments about Kevin as an enabler. Almost more anger at Kevin than Ruby. Did y' all notice that at all or not?

Mindy Caldwell [02:48:12] Are you talking after the documentary? Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:14] People's response to the documentary.

Megan Connor [02:48:15] Kevin.

Mindy Caldwell [02:48:16] Kevin's getting crucified.

John Dehlin [02:48:17] Yeah. Why Kevin more than Ruby?

Megan Connor [02:48:19] I think Ruby is serving time. Right. She's. She's received her punishment. And. And it's kind of like what I'm speaking to. Like, what was harder for me to get over as an abused child? Was it the person who abused me or was it the person who stood by and didn't do anything? You know, for me, actually, it was the latter that was harder for me to get over.

John Dehlin [02:48:41] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:48:43] Interesting, Megan.

Episode Two: Distortion and Deepening Control

John Dehlin [02:48:44] So episode two, called Distortion, which is a reference to Jody Hildebrandt and her doctrines, begins with the acknowledgment that they lost 90% of their income. They were canceled. They got an expensive lawyer involved. Suggested, like you guys mentioned, that Ruby make an apology. Ruby says, over my dead body, I'm not going to make an apology. She says, I'm saving my family. Will show the world what real parenting looks like. That's scary. That, like, she was bought into to this harsh parenting model, which isn't just a Jody thing. Christian Orthodox or fundamentalist Christianity, as illustrated in Shiny Happy People. There's that whole blanket parenting.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:49:30] Yeah, right.

Megan Connor [02:49:31] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:49:31] Actually, I bring. I'm glad you're bringing this up because I see a lot of what is happening in the Frankie home as not. Not just a LDS issue, but as you say, there's a lot of it going on. There's parallels in very strict religious homes and. Yeah. And you see this in Shiny Happy People. The blanket training was a part of the Frankie upbringing, which is supposed to bring strict obedience. It's also in Shiny Happy People, which is about the Duggar family. And there are some interesting crossovers and just the sort of. What did you call it? The parenting style. Just this sort of very strict, obedience centered parenting style.

John Dehlin [02:50:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Troublemaker Baker is saying, regardless of one's opinion, I'm so saddened that some people think Kevin shouldn't have custody of his children. My understanding is he does now.

Megan Connor [02:50:25] He does, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:26] So that's that that came out.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:50:28] Yeah. She's saying she has a hard time understanding why people aren't okay with that. What else did she say there?

John Dehlin [02:50:36] She said a loving parent in a new. In a now stable home is the best placement. Unburden the DCFS system whenever possible.

Mindy Caldwell [02:50:47] I think following these. This tsunami of criticism towards Kevin that I've seen since the docu series was released and previously as well. The thing that I keep going back to is I think in these instances, you. It's important to trust the kids who have more insight into this whole thing. Maybe. Let's talk about the adult kids, Sherry and Chad. They seem to be okay with having a relationship with Kevin. It's complicated. I have concerns, of course, but default to the kids. And if they're okay with it, maybe troublemaker is right. And, you know, having the children with a parent, if he's proven to be, you know, caring for them adequately, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:51:42] The negligence is a big problem.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:51:43] Yeah. DCSF's job is to bring a family back together, and they're not going to do that without resources for Kevin and without keeping a watchful eye on Kevin. He actually even said that at the Utah State Legislature when he introduced E's letter that he was going to read. He said, I want to make it very clear that this was done through the juvenile system. Like that. E wrote this through that system, not me. That implies to me that there's a lot of resources and a lot of supervision over the reuniting of him and his children, which is healthy. That's the way it should be. And that that letter was approved by them for her to read it. And it seemed like a letter that was really the efforts of a lot of people with Kevin. Reading the letter shows that he's trying to understand where he is coming from through the system. I think that's a good sign. And that he is supporting E by reading the letter saying that vlogging was bad. He put his children through that, and he's standing up saying, this was bad. I made a mistake. Listen to my daughter. That's a victim. Both daughters. I want to point out that Jay also read a letter. She, you know, and, you know, saying that vlogging was abuse. And so he also read Jay's letter. She's 16 now, I believe. And so these are all signs pointing in the right direction for reunified unification. And I also want to point out that in that interview that he recently did in Good Morning America, there was this. This moment at the end where he said he's asked Ruby to stop writing. He doesn't communicate with Ruby. He said that they have a ton of animals in the house and the. The animals are ripping up the floorboards. And he realizes Ruby would be so angry at this.

Mindy Caldwell [02:53:23] She never would have allowed that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:53:24] She would have never allowed this. Yet I am happy without her. And this is a happy home. Meaning he's clearly making some changes without Ruby. He has some resources. I have no idea how it's going to go. I don't want to imply that. I know, but I do want to point out some evidence I've seen that there are some things happening in the right direction for the family.

Megan Connor [02:53:45] Yeah, I think that's what I see too, you know, in the aftermath of this. Of this airing and the other interviews that I've seen is that Kevin seems to have a very genuine desire to repair and to change and to grow and to do better. And I like you, Mindy. I think, think it's telling that Chad and Sherry do want to have contact with him at all, because, as we know, Jody's kids don't have any contact with her at all. So I think. And this is. I'd love to see the conversation change around this when kids go no contact with their parents. Rather than shaming the kids for being ungrateful, maybe we need to take a look at the relationship and say, maybe there's a reason they're no contact, you know, but when they've been through what they've been through and they are willing to have contact with one of the parents who was there during this, all of these incidences over the years, I think that's a really positive sign. Yeah. So.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:54:39] And I. And the bottom line is I don't want what's best for Kevin. Don't mistake what I'm saying as wanting best for Kevin. I want what's best for these children. And these children are old enough to also make choices and perhaps tell the system we want to go back, and then they're going to oversee it. And, you know, I just think that, yeah, we can respect this process that we can't process.

Mindy Caldwell [02:54:59] Everyone in that family is going through intense deprogramming still, you know, and. And it's. It is a process. So I. I hope that the relationship with Kevin and the children will just continue to. I. I'm not in the camp where I think that Kevin shouldn't have any contact with his kids. And he. I'm. I'm so frustrated with so many things about Kevin in this documentary, but, yeah, I'm. I'm relieved to hear that. It sounds like the organizations that are involved are hopefully, helpfully, are helping to facilitate healthier relationships and. And having some good oversight on the family.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:55:40] What R and E went through is unfathomable. I don't even know how you come back from what they suffered. And so if having their dad in their lives helps them, then I want that for them.

Megan Connor [02:55:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:52] So this is all great. The. The next part of episode two, there's a segment where Ruby's trying to figure out how to message this canceling and collapse where you remember, she says, buckle up, guys. I have something to share. But then she clearly stops it and starts crying and she's like sobbing on camera, which was kind of emotional. And she does all these retakes and they say no brand deals are coming through. And it's kind of like this unraveling. But then quickly, it's like Jody Hildebrandt fills the void. And very quickly, you know, they. Kevin talks about Jody being a businesswoman who prays on the week.

Mindy Caldwell [02:56:33] Brandon said that. That Jody was a businesswoman who prayed on the week.

John Dehlin [02:56:37] Thank you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:56:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:56:39] For cf. For some reason I've. I've done under Kevin. But yeah, Brandon talks about her. Jody shady business practices that she does didn't pay Brandon, that she seemed angry at men, that she pulled couples apart, that he knew it was destructive. But. But basically the next part of the. Part two is kind of the rise of connections where Jody's holding these retreats. Kevin starts using cult language to describe Jody as kind of creating a cult, which is ironic and, you know, and basically almost like excited that Ruby's. That eight passengers had fallen apart, because that was an opportunity for Jody to kind of harness Ruby as the engine to grow connections and make it monetarily successful. But when they show the video footage of these connections retreats and all the women there on the edges of their seats. Seats, and Jody being the prophet up in front of everybody and Ruby being the sidekick, that's kind of probably bringing in a lot of these women, but also supporting and validating Jody's teachings as the prophetess of connections. What do you. What did y' all think about all that? Any comments?

Megan Connor [02:57:59] Well, I actually just want to rewind for one second about the video you were talking about with Ruby, you know, being tearful and whatever. One little manipulative thing that I pointed out is when she's there with Jody. They're presenting this new. They're going to be doing these changes on the channel, you know, and Ruby says, you know, very tearfully, I gave up millions so that I could change my message to save my family. And I was like, you didn't give it up. You had it taken away from you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:58:30] Because.

Megan Connor [02:58:32] So she. She twists that narrative, right, to gain the sympathy of, like, I was making millions of dollars with a successful channel, and I made the choice to change the content from mommy vlogging to, you know, strict parenting and righteous parenting and showing the right way. So. So there's that. But just to answer your. Your question about, you know, the change in. In content and, and the connections, the rise of connections and Kevin now participating. I think what stuck out to me was the idea that you presented earlier, John, where you said Jody was taking her patients or her clients, I should say, and making them facilitators, you know, and making them, you know, the ones in charge of leading these groups. And. And one of the people commented, and I think it might have been Paige Hannah who commented that Ruby and Kevin had no experience with this, yet they were brand new, and yet Jody immediately, she promoted them to leadership positions because she was collecting their influence, was how she put it.

John Dehlin [02:59:35] That's good.

Mindy Caldwell [02:59:36] Were you all surprised by how many faces they showed in those connections?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:59:42] That felt like on purpose, like, yeah, you guys were all here.

Mindy Caldwell [02:59:45] I was like, oh, admittedly, I'm scouting every single day. Do I know anything? Totally.

John Dehlin [02:59:51] Me too.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [02:59:52] I was. Was totally looking. I was like, who do I know? Who do I know? Who do I know? Yeah. That was a moment that was like. It was interesting because, like, as I explained, like, people don't want to come forward. They're mortified. Like, people that have come forward to me, they're like, I don't want to go on record. I'm not ready. And it was. I felt like it was sort of a moment of the documentary be like, and you were there and you were there and you were there and you were there and you're. Oh, look. And there you are.

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:12] There you are. I saw a comment online that was interesting that said the person who commented said, but why did they not blur the faces in the connections Classroom workshop video? But then on the, the. All of the screen. Screen, you know, views that they showed where Kevin was in the men's group, all of the other men's faces were blurred. Sorry, I almost dropped my binder. Were blurred besides Kevin. And I was thinking, is that because that would technically be considered like a therapy session. So that's the confidentiality and then the. The connections classroom. That's what I. That's a commercial that I came to.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:00:49] Every person that probably entered that moment, whether they know it or not, probably signed some disclaimer that said that they were willing to be filmed for Connections. So they probably signed that away where. Yeah, Kevin on the zoom therapy call was confidential, right?

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:06] Yeah. That was a surprising to see so many and to hear Paige talk about her concerns about this. Frankie's kind of getting into it really quickly. I don't think we should gloss over Kevin's initial reaction though to Connections.

John Dehlin [03:01:19] Talk about it.

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:20] He says Ruby was just into it. And I noticed that so many of the women in that room were just. And he says laser focused. They were intent. They were on the edge of their chairs. And I remember turning to Ruby and whispering, this feels like a man hating club. This is. Is a cult. Kevin says that to Ruby. And I was like. And so then Ruby recruits Paige. We gotta get Kevin on board with this. And so eventually. So part of me is like, oh, the first instinct about something. Listen to that. Listen to that. And I think it goes back to him wanting to please Ruby and finally came around to it. So.

John Dehlin [03:01:59] And Paige had that quote, we put so much pressure on Kevin. Did y' all catch that?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:02:04] Yeah. So there's like a few things there. There's a.

Megan Connor [03:02:06] You're right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:02:07] Like trust. Trust your gut instinct when you see red flags.

Mindy Caldwell [03:02:10] Yep.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:02:10] That's real. Trust your gut. Red flags are there. Secondly, you're right. Then we bring in triangulation and her recruiting other people to sort of coerce and convince Kevin, which is so culty too, but it's also coercive control. It's everything. It's triangulation.

Megan Connor [03:02:27] It's.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:02:27] It's everything. And then I also want to point out that like I know that, you know, another man has accused Paige can of. Of stalking him as well. This is on record. You can google it. It's. It was in the court. And so it's just interesting that like, is Jody recruiting Paige to sort of go after all these. These men? Because there is a court order against Paige. It was later dismissed, but the court record is there that she was charged with stalking another man. That was in Connections as well. So I'm like to hear that Jody's telling her go after Kevin. What is she telling.

Mindy Caldwell [03:03:01] It was.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:03:01] Was, you know, page to do. But you're right. That's triangulation. It's trusting your red flag. Trusting the Red flags, the gut instinct, you know, everything.

Megan Connor [03:03:10] Yeah. And it. And it's sort of this practice of manipulative, controlling people to use other people as pawns. Right. And so I think you're. You're scanning the room as a manipulative person for, you know, who is a danger, who's a threat to me, who's going to see through me, and also who can I use and for what purpose. And I think Jody saw Paige Hannah as someone she could recruit as a minion to help me keep track of these clients. If they're not showing up, what are they doing? You know, are they participating? Are they buying back in? If they're starting to drift away, find a way to bring them back in and just. Super manipulative. But I have a question for you, Lauren, because I'm. I was confused about the timeline on this. So I know Jody's therapy license was suspended for a time, and then she sort of rebranded under coaching, so. And you were saying the zoom calls were confidential. I mean, obviously, coaches, we. We have confidentially confidentiality agreements as well, too. But I was just curious. Did. She didn't get her license reinstated, did she?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:04:13] No, I think she did. Right. It was suspended. It was suspended. Thus she got it back.

John Dehlin [03:04:18] She got it back. She got back.

Megan Connor [03:04:20] Do we know the timeline for that?

John Dehlin [03:04:21] I think it was 18 months, maybe.

Megan Connor [03:04:23] Wow.

John Dehlin [03:04:24] I think. I'm guessing my memory's foggy.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:04:27] And she came back and with, you know, classic sociopathic behavior, claimed herself the victim in that and that.

Megan Connor [03:04:34] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:04:34] You know, people went after her.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] That was a client, but that was in response to that impulse.

Megan Connor [03:04:38] Right, right, right, right. So just. I mean, just a. Just to put a little thing out there for anybody who is interviewing a therapist for the job of protecting your mental health, because it should be a job interview. Right. Ask them have they ever had their license suspended or revoked. If so, what for? And it's very telling, the way that they speak about experiences with former patients, clients, whatever it is, if they're very defensive and they play the victim, that's probably a red flag.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:05:04] And Jody was. Was a liar. Let's point out that, too. Like, she wasn't just narcissistic. Like, she was absolutely manipulating and absolutely knowingly lying. She's also said she was a psychologist when she wasn't a psychologist. She was manipulative. That's why I actually brought up sociopathic behavior. I'm not gonna. Like, I'm. I don't. I'm not afraid to call it out for what it is. This is More than narcissism here. This is a psychopath, in my opinion. And she knowingly lied and she knowingly manipulated. And I guess I'm setting the stage there because I know we're going to come up with some more things that she did, but go ahead.

John Dehlin [03:05:36] No, I, I, this, I'm sure this comes up later in the episodes, but I just wanted to call it out. There was a point where, I don't know if it was. Both Kevin and Chad were basically saying, it's not our fault. Jody was a licensed psychologist, and we were relying. Or a licensed therapist. We were relying on the expertise of a licensed therapist. But my memory from Sherry's book is that Sherry went on Google as soon as she learned about Jody Hildebrand and saw that her license had been suspended and told them, at least told Chad. So I feel like they were kind of trying to have it both ways to, to basically, yeah, to. To say that Sherry knew that Jody had had her license suspended. But then Kevin and Chad and maybe others were trying to say, oh, it's not our fault. We were listening. Well, I think that's the point you

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:06:29] were making is like, those things matter. I think that's the point you're making is even if she's claiming to be one thing, if, if that is, if that is part of the history that matters, if she claims she's a psychologist and she's not, that matters like all those things.

John Dehlin [03:06:44] But I'm wondering if Kevin was kind of either forgetting or misleading people by saying we were trusting a licensed therapist.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:06:51] I mean, it was. She was a licensed therapist. I mean, so they were trusting a licensed therapist, but I think what they were dismissing.

John Dehlin [03:06:58] Her license had been suspended.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:06:59] But if you are in the therapy, if you aren't in the therapy world. World, I don't know if you know how much that means and if, if it was a disgruntled client.

Mindy Caldwell [03:07:07] And that's what she described it as. Yeah, she had a story. She had a response for that whole suspension, and she got it back.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:07:14] She got her license back. That, that is victory.

John Dehlin [03:07:17] She wasn't operating under her license because when you're a coach, you're not operating under any license.

Megan Connor [03:07:22] But the final word, I think, on that came from Sherry in her book when she called up all these concerns about her license being suspended and all of that. And Ruby's response was, yes, that was a disgruntled client. She was upfront about that. She explained all of that to us in the first place. And then Ruby said, anybody who doesn't like Jody is hiding something.

Mindy Caldwell [03:07:44] That's right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:07:45] Do you know one of the first emails I got after this all came out and I started covering it was. Well, not one of the first. So. So it happens. Everybody's acknowledging that Jody Hildebrandt is not who they thought she was and neither is Ruby. But then we interview Adam Paul Steed. This was before your interview with Adam Paul Steed. And that was like the first week we interview Adam Paul Steed and we got an email that said from someone that said, I've been listening to you for a long time and you need to check Adam Paul Steed. You are wrong. This man is an abuser. Like, she absolutely retold the narrative of Adam Paul Steed and she was talking about it in her groups because this woman was a client of Jody's. She was explaining how she was taken advantage of by a man who had addictions in her group, that he was an abuser, that they got divorced. So like she knew that that could always come up as an issue and she was absolutely telling that story to not just Ruby and Kevin, but to the whole group. As in like a lesson of like how people have tried to push her down and not let her tell truth. But she is back. And so that was, that was an email we got after we interviewed Adam Paul Steed was, how dare you not check this source. You're going to learn about him.

John Dehlin [03:09:05] Brooklyn's asking us to kind of explain who Paige Hannah was. And I think that's actually a really good point. That's a really good point because eight passengers weren't the only influencers. I just, I just chat GPT this, but it's saying that Johnny Hannah, Paige's husband, was the co founder of Entrada, which is a property solutions kind of software package or whatever. He would have potentially made a lot of money off of that. And then he was also the co founder and CEO of Homey, which was an attempt huge.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:09:39] Yeah,

John Dehlin [03:09:41] I don't know if it ever really made it past Covid, but okay, it was certainly trying to compete with the MLS and become sort of an Apple app for buying and selling homes. But regardless, you could always drive down kind of the I15 Utah County Blvd and see homey billboards up and it would, it would, it would be almost certain that the Hannah's were worth at least tens of millions of dollars, if not, I don't know, hundreds of millions. And that, you know, it wouldn't have just been the eight passengers as influencers that Jody was taking advantage of, of the Hannahs would be important influencers too.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:10:20] Right. If you, and if you haven't been following this case from the beginning, you're right. You don't know who the Hannahs are. The Hannahs, you're right. They were influential, they were wealthy. And it shows a pattern of deception by Jody because she tried with the Hannah's what she then did to the Frankies and, and I'm sorry for those with your notes and I'm jumping ahead a bit but. Or should I wait?

Megan Connor [03:10:41] No, go for it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:10:42] That, that, that, that Jody Hildebrandt first moved in with the Hannahs before she moved in with the Frank.

John Dehlin [03:10:48] Yeah, that's right.

Mindy Caldwell [03:10:49] That was not part of the documentary. But it's really important.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:10:53] It's really important. Doing the exact same. Doing the exact same thing to the Hannah's that she did the Frankies going into trances, claiming she was six, claiming there was something wrong with her.

John Dehlin [03:11:02] Showing us question about hitting on Johnny Hannah instead.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:11:06] Well, hitting on. I think she. I think she wanted Paige in the bedroom room with her, which didn't work. And that's when she left. Like there is a pattern of absolute lying and deception manipulation by Jody Hildebrandt that she is doing. And she tried it with the Hannahs and then moved on to the Frankies and like I said, and then she used Paige clearly as a influential collector to like collector of people. A collector of people. Go after Kevin. Let's get him. You know.

John Dehlin [03:11:36] Know.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:11:36] Yeah. And again. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [03:11:39] Do we know how long Jody lived with. With the Hannahs?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:11:43] I don't.

Mindy Caldwell [03:11:43] Off the top, I can't remember. But it was, it was a substantial

John Dehlin [03:11:47] months, I would say.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:11:48] Paige did her own YouTube videos where I think she gives the whole timeline

Mindy Caldwell [03:11:51] and I don't wish I had reviewed those. Yes, I watched those.

Megan Connor [03:11:54] It's been a long time since I've seen those.

Mindy Caldwell [03:11:56] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:11:56] But we sort of veered away from the discussion of how Kevin reacted to being a connections facilitator. At first he said that Jody was really complimentary of him, really validating setting him up as an example in the group, saying, you know, everybody should be like Kevin, he's a man, he's taking responsibility. You know, that was going so well until it wasn't.

Mindy Caldwell [03:12:21] And this is.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:12:22] Go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [03:12:23] This is interesting. He said. It felt so good. And I began to look forward to it working with the connections in the men's group groups because all I wanted was praise. Do you want to know what felt the most good? It was seeing the way my life My wife was looking at me. And the interviewer asks, how was she looking at you? And Kevin replies, the way I'd always wanted her to look at me.

Megan Connor [03:12:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:48] Interestingly, Tell me if y' all notice this, but, like, there's this montage where, you know, Kevin clearly submits to connections. Starts being a poster child for connections. That must have made Paige super happy, along with Ruby. Clearly made Ruby happy. Where all of a sudden, it seems like Kevin's biceps, like, triple.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:10] Kevin has a bit of a glow up there.

John Dehlin [03:13:12] And all of a sudden. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:13] In the connections era, he's wearing a tank top.

John Dehlin [03:13:16] Tank top. I wonder if he's taking testosterone or something or working out a lot. But all of a sudden, he seems to have a glow up up. And they've got that montage of, like, him and Ruby in the kitchen. In the kitchen where he sneaks up behind her and he's kissing her neck.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:30] But also, they're sailing together and the wind's blowing through their head.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:35] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:13:35] There was. It was, like, Kevin in his glow up era.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:38] And they're. And it's like this idea that they're. Because of Jody, their marriage got revitalized. The connections brought happiness to the marriage into the family, and that everything was really going smoothly. Did y' all get that sense?

Megan Connor [03:13:54] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:54] Yeah, Absolutely.

Coercive Control, Cult Dynamics, and Triangulation

John Dehlin [03:13:55] Okay.

Megan Connor [03:13:56] Okay. Enter Moms of Truth Facebook group.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:14:00] Yeah. And I just want to point out again, because I. I actually brought this up, I think this is. This is the beginning of coercive control. You improve somebody's life.

Megan Connor [03:14:08] Yes.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:14:08] You make them dependent on you, and then you pull the rug from them, and that's what's about to happen. That's coercive control.

John Dehlin [03:14:14] Yep.

Megan Connor [03:14:15] Classic.

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:15] Yep.

Megan Connor [03:14:16] Thank you for pointing that out. That's so important.

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:18] Yep.

Megan Connor [03:14:18] Because I think. I think when you're in that phase where things are starting to get better and improve, you're, like, so relieved. Right. To have something changing and things are getting better. This is working. And it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:14:31] That. Keep it.

Megan Connor [03:14:33] Exactly. And then that experience, when things start to go bad, you keep recalling that experience, and you don't give back enough credence to the things that are bad because you keep going. It was so, so good for such a long time.

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:44] And you have hope that maybe we're in a rough spot, but we're going to get back to that.

Megan Connor [03:14:47] Right. We'll get back. We'll get back to that initial phase, that euphoria.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:14:51] And the abuser keeps changing the goal posts, too. I just want to point this out because, like, I Can't believe that we are sitting here nitpicking a family that was public. Can you imagine being this family and know that we're doing five hour podcasts on them? But so I think the most important thing about us and, and they were public and they now have a documentary. So it's fair. I'm not, you know, it's fair that we're doing this. They're public figures. But I think the most important thing to talk about is like, what happened and like, and to point out to so many, I mean, so many people were pulled into connections. Like, this is coercive control to all the people that were in this and to like moving forward with manipulators and criminals and, you know, sociopaths. Like, this happens and this is how they do it and this is the formula. And it is done again and again and again throughout history. And if you recognize it in people, that is what this is. This isn't, this isn't a one and done scenario. This is done over and over and over again. It's like, here we are again. They make your life better and then they pull the rug from you and they, and change the goal posts and you are hustling forever to try to please them.

Megan Connor [03:15:54] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:15:54] This is a cult. This is coercive control.

Megan Connor [03:15:57] Yeah. Thank you for, for lining that out so beautifully. Because for me personally, you know, when people ask me, well, why would you want to keep talking about this? This, this is the reason why.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:16:07] Yes.

Megan Connor [03:16:07] Because we have a real world example that this played out right in front of everybody. And we have, you know, dare I say, anthropological evidence here, you know, of, of these patterns that played out and people saw it and didn't recognize it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:16:24] Right.

Megan Connor [03:16:24] And, and for me personally, my personal vendetta is pointing out manipulative and controlling behaviors and teaching people how to defend against it. It so that more people don't get re. Victimized. And I think it's the lesson of true crime.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:16:39] It's the lesson of true crime. That's why I'm trying. Yeah, exactly.

Megan Connor [03:16:42] Spotting the patterns, pointing them out, you know, posting the red flags in the ground so that people don't trip over the same hole. Like, let's, let's help people recognize this so that when something happens in their own life, they go, oh, light bulb. I remember this being talked out about on a, on a podcast. I remember hearing about this case place. This seems familiar. Maybe I should pay more attention. That's all.

John Dehlin [03:17:10] Love it. Thank you for that analysis. Comment comes in. Kevin said in a second Police interview that Jody was hitting on the husband, Johnny Hannah. Okay, but maybe Kevin made a hetero assumption about what he heard. That's prexie burning. Purple writing. Let's see. And then C. Charles agrees. It's too bad they didn't mention that Jody moved in with Paige and Johnny in the documentary.

Megan Connor [03:17:42] So that was interesting because that establishes a pattern.

Mindy Caldwell [03:17:45] Right?

John Dehlin [03:17:45] Yeah. And then PJ Mac. Oh, sorry. So Laura Branson has a band name, Potters of Distortion. That's Laura Bridge.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:17:59] Shout out to Heather Davel.

Mindy Caldwell [03:18:02] I didn't even make the Heather connection until you just said that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:18:06] Yeah, she was accused of Chad Davel being a pot stir. She's like, I was always the potter. I love it. Potters of Distortion.

John Dehlin [03:18:14] Coming with the band names, everybody.

Megan Connor [03:18:16] Heather, we love you.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:18:17] Thank you, Heather. Yeah, I was actually thinking of Heather yesterday. I miss you, Heather.

John Dehlin [03:18:22] And PJ Mac asked, can John explain the line from the therapist? Brandon? Brandon, he. They were. Brendan B R A N said, the therapists are trained to not care. I'm not.

Mindy Caldwell [03:18:32] I've got it.

John Dehlin [03:18:33] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [03:18:34] Brandon said, jody was always enamored by money and fame. I saw her treat her clients differently according to their status. She said to me one time, a client came in who was well known and had money, and she said to me, we really got to take care of this one. And I thought, well, that's odd. Like, we're therapists. We're trained not to care. What do you think she meant? The interviewer asks? And he said, I think she was salivating some. She was salivating about money and power. So that excited her. What can I do with the client and a lot of money? With a lot of money and influence and power.

Megan Connor [03:19:04] Yeah. So they're trying to not care about the money and the power.

Mindy Caldwell [03:19:07] Right.

Megan Connor [03:19:08] Influence. But that shouldn't.

Mindy Caldwell [03:19:09] You shouldn't be recruiting clients based on their status or their finances or showing them preferential children. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:19:15] Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:19:17] Like, we need to take care of this one. Well, we need to take care of all the clients who come in, you know, so.

John Dehlin [03:19:21] But. But Jody saw dollar signs, right?

Mindy Caldwell [03:19:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:24] Okay. So after kind of that glow up and. And even, by the way, even Chad and Sherry reported that Ruby stopped yelling during that brief time and that the family was happier and they attributed it to Jody as well. So anyway. Yeah. Brennan talks about Jody being enamored by fame and status. And then. And then Kevin said he felt like they were doing God's work. Here's where I think all of us with our visions of glory experience and this Idea also with. With Lori and Chad Daybell, this is where I think our visions of glory. Chad and Lori Daybell. Spidey senses went off when Kevin said that they all felt like they were doing God's work. And then Covid comes, and then there's an earthquake in downtown Salt Lake. And then everyone started talking, kind of like this prepper mentality that we've covered numerous times on our podcast and yours. They all started thinking, second coming, Jesus is returning. The world is going to be ending soon. Everyone is going to get burnt. These are the last days. And all of a sudden, this connection stuff they're doing gets intermingled with Mormon church teachings about the end of times.

Megan Connor [03:20:55] The telling part to me was everyone's going to get burnt but us, because we're on the right side. Do you have that, Mindy? Somewhere? Please tell me you've got it.

Mindy Caldwell [03:21:01] I have everything. Tried the whole. Because that's Mindy pulling out. Okay.

Megan Connor [03:21:07] Quotes.

Mindy Caldwell [03:21:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:08] Show your binder.

Mindy Caldwell [03:21:09] I've already shown my binder.

John Dehlin [03:21:11] Do it one more time. I. I came.

Mindy Caldwell [03:21:14] Okay. Yeah. Anyway, so. Yes. So about that.

John Dehlin [03:21:21] Okay, good.

Mindy Caldwell [03:21:22] So Kevin does say ahead of time, something big was coming. It was just around the corner. And then that's when Covet and everything happened. So it was just this. This anticipation. And I've always had this criticism about prepperism. It's like they want the shit to hit the fan and the lots of bad things to happen. It's like they. I feel like they want that to confirm all these money that they've spent and all these things. It's just such a. It's. It's an odd. And maybe they would describe it as, oh, they want Jesus to come and make everything all better, but there's going to be a lot of bad stuff before that. And it's just always been confusing to me. Okay. So Kevin. He says, the. The interviewer asks, Kevin, did you really think that this was the end of the world, that Christ was returning? And Kevin says, oh, absolutely. And then the interviewer says, but if the world was ending, did it occur to you that maybe you wouldn't go to heaven, maybe you'd go to hell? And Kevin just looks at him and says, never had. Never crossed our mind because we were preparing for it and we weren't alone. And so I think he's referencing the prepper movement and how many people felt so strongly that this was it, you

Prepper Ideology and Apocalyptic Beliefs

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:22:31] know, and when we're talking prepper movement, we're talking Julie Rowe. We're talking visions of glory, which Sheri Franke did confirm in her book was read by Jody and. And Ruby and Kevin. And we're talking preparing the people, and we're talking the firm expo, and we're talking Chad Dabel and Lori Valo. And if you want to know, there's a connection. A connection without an ex. Here you go.

Mindy Caldwell [03:22:57] Keep going. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:58] Yeah. And they had the big blue tubs of what for water storage. And they're literally.

Mindy Caldwell [03:23:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:04] All the buckets of food storage. Like, they were. They were seriously going prepper. I had not really. Really absorbed that that Ruby and Jody were going prepper.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:23:16] As someone that's like. Like, been inside of Jody's home. I know you visited you. I've been inside of Jody's home, and there were absolute prepping rooms. And I remember saying to the realtor, then showing me, like. Or the. The person that was selling the home, like, they were. They were preppers. And I heard their response was, they had Costco inside this house. Wow.

Mindy Caldwell [03:23:39] And I think compared to your standard extreme prepper, the difference with Ruby and Jody is that they were preparing, but also they were internalizing that they. Those two had a very special role in what was to come. And that sounds very familiar to the Devil case.

John Dehlin [03:24:00] What do you mean? Oh, Megan, what do you mean? And then back to.

Megan Connor [03:24:02] Oh, well, they had a very special role in. In preparing people for the end times, which is very Valo. Very debal.

Mindy Caldwell [03:24:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:24:10] And. Yeah. Y' all know that. That. Me.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:24:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:14] We didn't even mention that because I don't want you to be.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:24:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:17] Minimize or defined by that.

Megan Connor [03:24:19] You know, it's. It's funny because it's just. It's bound to happen, you know? I'm Lori Valo, Daybell's first cousin. We spent summers together growing up. I lived with her in Austin, and for a short time, she was a bridesmaid in my wedding. Her oldest son, Colby, my oldest daughter, you know, spent time together as young children, and the Coxes lived really near me in San Antonio for 10 years. So I spent a lot of time with their family. And. Yeah, so it's just. I. It's something that I just accept. You know, I. There was a time when I was like, I'm so sick of being called Lori Valo's cousin. But, you know, I chose to speak up about it. I chose to put myself out there to talk about her and how we got to where we got. Because it was so important to me for people to understand that we all know a Lori. Right. And so I don't mind being referred to as Lori Valo, Debel's cousin, because it is a part of my life in a way that I never thought it would be. But I have embraced it as an opportunity to talk about some really important things that are very valuable to me. So.

Mindy Caldwell [03:25:25] Yeah, Very good.

John Dehlin [03:25:26] Okay, thank you. You, Megan, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [03:25:29] Oh, just continuing on, the thought of Ruby and Jody, particularly Jody, it sounds like from Kevin's account, had some sort of divine, special role in all of this end time things and that. And we're getting next into her claims of having demonic possession. But Kevin said, we genuinely believed that Jody was inspired, called by God, representative of God, chosen by God. God Satan had it out for her. And we believe it. We wanted to believe it. And the interviewer asks why? And he says because we were in a state of mind where we were ready for something big to happen. So we're moving into the phase where. Where Jody is claiming that dark, shadowy figures are visiting her at night and she's recruiting the Frankies to help her deal. Deal with this issue.

John Dehlin [03:26:20] Yeah. And you know, we have an entire. One of our. I think our best episodes together was the one on all the connections between Tom Harrison, Visions of Glory, Tim. Tim Ballard and Chad Daybell, Laurie and Chad Daybell. And you know, and ultimately, the thing that I really think all these documentaries keep missing is the core Mormon theology and ideology that drives so much of this. And again, we've covered it more extensively. But not only that Jesus is coming, but it's usually something about the modern Mormon church leaders have kind of lost a grip that the church is kind of semi falling into apostasy. And from all these quotes of Isaiah, that there's going to be this special subgroup of Mormons that are led by kind of a grassroots prophet or what's called a Davidic servant, and that the Davidic servants get to rise up and not the Mormon Church leaders, but these special grassroots leaders are going to rise up and help prepare the Mormon people. That's where the Prepare people name comes from. Prepare the Mormon people for the second coming of Jesus. Which is what makes an Avram Gileadi or a Denver Snuffer, or you mentioned her. Julie Rowe. Julie Rowe, or a Chad Dabel and a Lori Vala or a Jody Hildebrandt. It's what gives them power. So this is the type of doctrine and teaching that happens over decade after decade after decade within the Mormon Church that Mormon Church leaders could shut down. They teach against Internet podcasters all day long. Don't listen to people that question the church or talk about its history. Don't read unapproved books. They could give lectures. Don't trust anyone who says that they're preparing the way for Jesus to come. Watch out for all these prepper people that are selling tarps and trailers and food storage because they're scammers. Anybody who says they're channeling revelations from angels or from spirits, watch out for them. Like, the Mormon Church could shut I'll swear all this down if they wanted to, but for some reason they don't want to. And this is just yet. And I didn't know this again, I didn't know about the prepper stuff. I did not know that everyone around Jody was viewing her as like a, as a, as a John the Baptist preparing the way for Jesus.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:28:55] Absolutely. Well. And she was in with Tom Harris. You're speaking to Tom Harrison's conferences with him, you know, like, this is, this is, this crew, this is the special little crew, you know, of, you know, friends that, you know, prepare a lot of influence people and a lot of influence on a lot of people, and they feel special.

John Dehlin [03:29:14] And, and we've, and we've speculated, why doesn't the church shut this down, Shut down prepperism, shut down millennialism, Second Coming rhetoric? Why doesn't the church shut it down?

Mindy Caldwell [03:29:25] Second coming is, is exactly Christianity.

John Dehlin [03:29:28] It's in our name too.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:29:31] As I actually said at the beginning, beginning of this episode, it was like, I like the Mormon name. Like, I do, I, I identify as Mormon. I, I like that. It's so funny that these, they are demanding that we sort of switch the name to the Church of Jesus Christ the Latter Day Saints or anything. Like, I actually see the Latter Day part of it is, like, kind of problematic. Like, I, I get that has Christ's name in it, but, like, it's really emphasizing the prepper movement, in my opinion. And it's also, not to mention, it's just sort of exhausting to say over and over again, but, you know, and then it gets shortened to lds, which again, is Latter Day. Like, okay, like, I'm down with Mormon, but, you know, but I, I, yeah, this prepper movement is strong. And every time I bring up visions of glory, like, I want to say, look, I'm not saying that every single person that reads vengeance of glory is going to go out and they are okay with the abuse of children and that they maybe weren't inspired, but you can't, you know, you know, let's take a scripture from the Bible. By their fruits you shall know them. You can't disregard that. This is. This sort of community has produced criminal after criminal, and this isn't your average criminal. These are people harming children, causing abuse and death to children, calling them zombies. And if you didn't believe that the Daybell case had anything to do with, with faith, check out Jody Hildebrandt and Ruby Frankie. And as I said in that Curious Case episode with John De Lynn, that Curious case of Jody Hildebrandt on hbo Max, they had me saying, makes you wonder what's going on in the LDS faith. And it does, and it should be stopped and it should be looked into. And we're bringing it up right now. There is a subgroup of prepper extremists that have some strong beliefs. And in the book Visions of Glory, which Ruby read and Jody read and Chad Dable read and Tim Ballard read, it says that in the last days, you're going to take it upon ourselves and you are going to release people from their mortal realm because they're going to have wicked spirits inside of them. And if they won't change, we can act as God and kill them. That's in this book. So whether you were inspired by this book or not, or you think it's metaphor or not like this, these are some crazy beliefs. And I just. Sorry, I'm gonna get off. You know, this is my thing. Sorry. I'll stop. I'll stop.

Mindy Caldwell [03:31:56] Important to talk about it. I did not realize, like you, John, I think I'd heard about the food storage in Jody's Ivan's home, but I did not realize that not only was she prepping, but that she was internalizing a special role for her.

John Dehlin [03:32:12] It's a messiah. It's a Messiah complex.

Mindy Caldwell [03:32:15] That's where things can get really dangerous and scary as we, as we saw. I just didn't realize that was part of it. So that was new to me as well.

John Dehlin [03:32:21] Yeah. So there's the financial, you know, fraud of, of getting people to sell their 401ks to, to buy all this prepper stuff. There's the claims of spiritual revelation that, that these people are communicating with angels or with the divine to know when the coming is coming. There's people claiming authority, that they are the one mighty and strong that's going to lead all these Mormon preppers into salvation. And then there's often sexual abuses that come with that, that accompany as well. So there's so much abuse that accompanies all this stuff. But the, but the church can't get away from the millennial Stuff because it's in the name and it's in our doctrine. And it can't get away from the. The angelic visitations, from the divine revelation, from the spiritual experiences. Because that's Joseph Smith. That's the founding of our church. That God and angels visit humans and give them revelation. So the church is stuck with all this, but we keep seeing this true crime. Why do we have this band? This band gets together whenever Mormon True Crime happens. Isn't it fair to say that all of this is why Mormon true Crime keeps happening? This is the recipe.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:33:35] Yes. That's why. That's why we thought, let's just call ourselves, right? All these names, Right. This is the recipe. This is why the band keeps getting back.

John Dehlin [03:33:42] Mtc Mormon True Crime. Maybe that's the name of the band.

Mindy Caldwell [03:33:48] We talked about that earlier.

John Dehlin [03:33:49] But yeah, I don't mean to keep.

Mindy Caldwell [03:33:51] I can't wait to review all the name suggestions. That will be great.

John Dehlin [03:33:55] Okay. Sorry, I didn't mean to take over. So, Mindy, were you saying.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:33:58] Well, I. We were going.

Megan Connor [03:33:59] Talking about the prepper, you know, the, the movement that they were getting involved in this and Kevin made some concerning comments that I want to make sure that we highlight and emphasize. Kevin was saying that they were so prepared for this end times to happen. They wanted it to happen. Do you happen to have that, Kate?

Mindy Caldwell [03:34:22] I'm sure I do. So why don't we. Why don't we move on? Can we move on to the signs of demonic weird things that happened in the Ivan's home? Let's talk about those.

John Dehlin [03:34:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:34:37] So sorry, I just. I don't want to. I. I don't mean to derail things, but. But this is just before the paranormal normal signs.

Mindy Caldwell [03:34:45] Okay.

Megan Connor [03:34:45] When Jody is first being attacked by demons.

John Dehlin [03:34:48] We gotta talk about that.

Megan Connor [03:34:49] Kevin believes it was the end times. And then I just have here that he quoted. We wanted it to happen.

Mindy Caldwell [03:34:56] He said we were ready for something big to happen. We were expecting it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:34:59] That is important.

Mindy Caldwell [03:34:59] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:35:00] Yeah. And it reminded me when I. When I heard that in the documentary, it reminded me, Lauren, of your interview with my cousin Braxton, who was an extreme prepper. Yes. And is an extreme prepper. Is an extreme prepper.

John Dehlin [03:35:13] We have a clip.

Megan Connor [03:35:14] Yes. And Braxton talked about the same phenomenon that when you spend. Spend so much time and money and effort and energy getting ready for something.

Mindy Caldwell [03:35:23] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:35:23] You want to be tested. You want to see did I prepare well enough? You know, did I do it well enough?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:35:28] I think they're almost excited. Don't even say Like, I want to see. Like, I think they, like, want it to happen. Like, they're excited. They're pumped.

Megan Connor [03:35:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:33] They're like, their life sucks, and so they're looking for a. To be rescued from a sucky life.

Megan Connor [03:35:39] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:35:39] Not always.

Mindy Caldwell [03:35:40] I. I've known lots of preppers that seem to have their lives together, but they think it's a. I think it's an obedience test, and it's a way that you can be special. You can just. Just stand out and be special. But it's probably a variety of types of people who are drawn to that.

John Dehlin [03:35:53] Do you agree Lori's life was in the toilet?

Megan Connor [03:35:56] I mean, I would say it was,

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:35:57] but, no, I wouldn't say that.

Megan Connor [03:36:00] She was.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:36:00] She was married to.

Mindy Caldwell [03:36:01] She was married to a great guy.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:36:02] She was married to a great guy. She had, you know, it was a blended family. I actually think she blew her life up.

Mindy Caldwell [03:36:08] Travel to Hawaii.

Megan Connor [03:36:10] I would agree. I would agree. I don't think her life was in the toilet until she got involved with this group of people, and then she really, you know.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:36:18] Yeah. Screwed it up for herself and she murdered the great guy and was like, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:23] So you want to play the clip?

Megan Connor [03:36:25] Yeah. So this clip is Lauren interviewing my cousin Braxton, who is an extreme prepper, and he is arguably the one who gave Lori her copy of Visions of Glory. Or at least. At the very least, they read it together. They bonded over it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:36:38] He likes the book. Visions of Glory.

Megan Connor [03:36:39] He likes the book. He's. He thinks it's good fun is what he said.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:36:42] Yeah. And he said he didn't take it literally like the scripture, but he thinks it's good fun. Right. And he is. But he is. He has been featured on the National Geographic Channel about preppers. He was, like, a season in it. So he has been highlighted, as in very good. An extreme prepper, but a very good one. Yeah. I've even asked him for tips. I'll say that I'm like, bragston, give me some tips. I need to do some basic prepping. And I've. I've actually reached out to him. He's giving me tips, so.

Megan Connor [03:37:07] Oh, well, yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:37:08] Nothing wrong. Nothing wrong with. With.

Mindy Caldwell [03:37:11] I've always maintained that, like, a moderate, reasonable amount of emergency prep is a great idea. It's just when people take it to the extreme and they can get dangerous.

Megan Connor [03:37:21] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:37:21] So I was like, practice with my guys. Like, I needed to know a few things. I'm like, if you just had a handful of change bricks, what would you do? She told me okay.

John Dehlin [03:37:29] All right, let's. Let's go ahead and roll. Pull the clip. This is from hidden true crime YouTube channel.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:37:36] Yeah. And that's Lori and Braxton on the front there. Cousins Lori Valo and Braxton.

John Dehlin [03:37:41] Oh, that's Lori.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:37:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:37:42] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [03:37:43] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:37:43] Now let me explain something.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [03:37:45] When you're a prepper like me and

Video Clip 2 [03:37:46] you're preparing for one event, the second coming of the.

Video Clip 2 [03:37:49] And you spend hundreds and thousands of

Video Clip 2 [03:37:52] dollars preparing and having a plan and

Video Clip 2 [03:37:54] getting your family prepared and your friends prepared, and you spend all this time and it consumes you, and you do it day after day after after day.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:01] You're.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:02] You are mentally, like, unprepared.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:04] I am ready.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:06] There's nothing more I can do now.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:08] I want to be challenged. I want to go through it and

Video Clip 2 [03:38:13] do well in it. And I think Lori was in that

Video Clip 2 [03:38:17] position where she talked about it every day.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:19] She knew what was going on.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:21] She was prepared.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:22] Chad told her the future and what

Video Clip 2 [03:38:23] was going to happen. She knew it.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:25] She had.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:26] She had a key to the future.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:27] And it was Chad bad.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:28] And he's telling her, and she's been

Video Clip 2 [03:38:30] preparing and talking about it and telling

Video Clip 2 [03:38:32] everybody it's coming, it's coming, it's coming. And everybody around her is believing her

Video Clip 2 [03:38:36] that it's coming, because Chad told me it's coming.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:38] She wanted it so bad.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:41] So bad.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:41] She wanted it that at that point, she's like, I. Chad says this, and. And I want it to happen.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:49] I want it to happen.

Video Clip 2 [03:38:50] So I'm gonna go past this envelope, go a little bit more and kind of help it along.

Video Clip 2 [03:39:00] Help it along.

Megan Connor [03:39:01] Concerning, to say the least. You know, that she wanted to usher in the end times. I think they all wanted to be tested in their preparism. I saw some. The same things in Jody's behavior that was interesting, though.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:39:14] They don't want it to just happen. They want to help it along. They are ready.

John Dehlin [03:39:19] And it's all with this idea of, like, feeling called feeling chosen, led by God and getting a messiah complex, which is when things can get really dangerous.

Megan Connor [03:39:29] Yeah, yeah. And then the paranormal stuff starts happening

John Dehlin [03:39:34] because then your thoughts and your emotions become God's will. So if you. If you're no longer attracted to your spouse and you're attracted to someone else, it must be God calling you to practice polygamy, for example, and. Or to get an insurance policy out on your spouse, because God's telling you they're going to die soon, and then all of a sudden, you're accelerating their demise. Right. Like, this stuff's Dangerous? It's. It's. It's as dangerous as poison or as a weapon. Like, we license guns. We license, you know, heavy machinery. Sometimes. I don't know that we can license ideas or beliefs, but sometimes beliefs can be more dangerous than a weapon. More fatal. Beliefs can be more fatal than a weapon. Am I wrong?

Megan Connor [03:40:23] Agreed.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:40:24] No, you're not wrong.

John Dehlin [03:40:25] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:40:26] Beliefs are what create the use of weapons.

John Dehlin [03:40:28] Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about that chilling scene in May of 2021 where Jody calls Ruby and they. The weird thing is they film it. But is she in a bathroom?

Mindy Caldwell [03:40:41] Like so.

John Dehlin [03:40:42] Yeah, go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [03:40:42] The. I believe the filming is when. After Ruby moves back in. Or, excuse me, after Jody moves back in with the. With the Frankie family in Springville. But this first incident going down, or I could be wrong. Do you guys.

Megan Connor [03:40:57] Yeah, they went down to Ivan's.

Mindy Caldwell [03:40:58] They went down to Ivan's.

Megan Connor [03:41:00] They were getting prepper stuff ready.

Mindy Caldwell [03:41:02] And the timing of the. The demonic video, I guess, doesn't even really matter in the story.

John Dehlin [03:41:06] But I have it here in the timeline.

Mindy Caldwell [03:41:09] So, yeah, perhaps that's when it happened, but they. They. They all go down. So I'm thinking timeline with Jody. She must have already gotten kicked out of Paige and Johnny Hanna's house. She's back in Ivan's by herself. She's having these demonic episodes. She's recruiting her local bishop to come over and, like, cast them out, cast them out, Exercise these demons that are in her house. He's fed up. He's like, this is not working. You need to think of another solution. So she reaches out to Ruby and Kevin and says, please come down. I need help. And so that's when they go down and Kevin starts detailing some weird occurrences that he believes happened while he was at her place down there in Ivan's,

John Dehlin [03:41:52] that he hears crashes, that he sees fingers coming out of something.

Mindy Caldwell [03:41:56] The handprint on the window, that just looks like a smudge.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:41:58] Well, that's what John said. You mean the smudge?

Mindy Caldwell [03:42:03] I was just, like, scrutinizing. I'm like, where's the hand?

Megan Connor [03:42:05] Even if you don't watch the whole documentary, just fast forward to about midway through the second episode. Look for the handprint. Let us know what you think. I personally, I was. I paused it. I was trying to make it bigger. It just. It looked like a smudge. And the way Kevin described it was like a hand print with these long,

Mindy Caldwell [03:42:24] bony fingers, extended hands.

Megan Connor [03:42:26] And I was like, well, couldn't you just do that? If you. You put your hand on the window and Sort of slid it down.

Mindy Caldwell [03:42:30] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:42:31] And. But then when they. She. The producer said, do you have a picture of. He said, yeah, I do. And they showed it. And I was like, that's not what he described at all. I thought that was very odd.

Mindy Caldwell [03:42:39] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:42:39] Well, a lot of people have been wondering about this because he said this in his police interviews that many people have listened to. He goes, I can't explain it. I'm an engineer professor, okay? Like, I like things with an explanation, and I can't explain it, but I saw dishes flying. I saw things, and I can't explain it. So to me, this was a very, very important part of the episode of the documentary because everyone has asked, what was he seeing? What was he seeing? So we're going to see Jody's trance. We're going to see a smudge that he said was a demonic handprint. We never see the flying dishes. But I think that now we're starting to learn that the things he believed he saw was because, as Dr. John says, he wanted to see that.

John Dehlin [03:43:21] Them.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:43:21] He wanted to see them because they confirmed what was in his brain. Confirmation bias. So while we don't see any flying dishes, I think we can now start to see that a lot of these things were things he. He wanted to see.

Megan Connor [03:43:37] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [03:43:39] And Ruby says. Ruby suggests the idea that Jody come back to their house and then she'll be able to fully heal from these demonic episodes. And Ruby says to Kevin, this is the second coming, Kevin. This is God's returning to the earth because Jody is chosen by God. Jody plays such an important part in it. So again, it's just what we've been talking about, about. Clearly they were believing that. That Jody had a higher purpose and role in ushering in the Second coming.

John Dehlin [03:44:13] I had a comment from. From a viewer and listener who's in the Pacific Islands, and she basically said that Kevin is a civil engineer who specializes in earthquake infrastructure and is hugely respected internationally. And she says it's astonishing that someone can dedicate their work life to plate tectonics and geology and still be an orthodox literal believer in the Book of Mormon or Rod Meldrum. And I would say and believe in this kind of supernatural mumbo jumbo. And in the actual documentary itself, I believe that the person asking the questions asked Kevin while he is being interviewed for the documentary, did you believe you were under the influence of Satan? And he said, I did. And I. I would wonder. I think I got the sense that Kevin still believed he experienced paranormal experiences.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:45:11] I think he still believes it.

John Dehlin [03:45:12] Yeah. Still now Right.

Mindy Caldwell [03:45:14] So, yeah, as far as the taping of the documentary, I got no indication that he was going back on any of that. Being real to him.

John Dehlin [03:45:21] Yeah. Yeah. So Kevin's still got some processing to do.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:45:25] Yeah.

Demonic Possession Claims and Manipulation Tactics

John Dehlin [03:45:26] What was going on with Jody though? Because she's. I don't want to take the. The attention away from her. She's sobbing, she's wailing, she's in her hoodie and she's claiming that Satan had it out for her. And she's basically convincing all the family members that like she's. The fact that she's acting like a borderline personality disordered person with demonic possessions. She's using that to convince the family that she's special and that. That they need to give her support. And I'm curious if y' all have opinions. This would be speculation. Was she faking all that or did she really believe it? And was. And that that was all part of the. The delusion was that she believed it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:46:14] Okay, I'll go. I'll go first. This was to me, the moment I was waiting for because I heard we get to see Jody's trances and I was like, I want. I've been waiting for this.

Mindy Caldwell [03:46:25] This.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:46:25] Let me see this. And in. And yeah, it created a self importance for her too because she's saying she's mine. She was saying that she was possessed.

Mindy Caldwell [03:46:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:36] Because Satan was going leave her alone. Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:46:40] So it not only own her. Right.

Mindy Caldwell [03:46:43] She's my.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:46:44] Not only does it create. It creates something frightening, but it creates a self importance too, like safety.

Megan Connor [03:46:51] Satan wants her.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:46:51] I mean, that's kind of wild too. But like, Lori Valo is also quoted saying that in a speech. Satan has been after me my whole life. Believe it or not. Satan being after you is kind of a flattering thing in this. In this crew. It's a big flex.

Mindy Caldwell [03:47:04] It's a flex.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:47:06] Satan wants me is a flex in this community. But okay, I. My mind was blown. I was like. I could not believe that one person could believe her. To me, she did not. This is me. This is my. This is my perception. Not even my husband's. Just me and me alone. I say not even my husband's because he's my co host and we talk about it. That sounded like I was like relying on him, but that's not what I meant. But mine and mine alone. 110 manipulation. She knew exactly what she was doing. She is a liar. She is a manipulator. And she had created an entire scenario where she had plotted it out and she thought okay. My next step is to. I have this family. I'm living with him. My next step is to be possessed and to need. To need to, you know, help so that then I can get Ruby in bed with me. To me, I was like, this is an absolute setup. And she knows exactly what she was doing. And this is a checklist. And she's like, okay, next step. Being possessed. Hold my beer. Watch this.

John Dehlin [03:48:07] So for you, it's premeditated manipulation. Totally fake.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:48:11] Totally premeditated. Premeditated is an important part of this too. She plotted and planned. I wouldn't even be surprised now after watching this documentary that she had gotten influence from Chad Daybell. Not only was it a copycat crime, I'm now thinking that Chad Daybell influenced her. And this was like premeditated manipulation. She was like, this is my next step.

John Dehlin [03:48:33] And Megan, you're nodding. So are you agreeing with. With 100.

Megan Connor [03:48:37] Really smart.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:48:38] So, yeah.

Megan Connor [03:48:40] Yeah. I mean, I. It. My big takeaway from the. Especially the last episode of the documentary is that absolutely 100. Jody was taking pages out of Chad Daybell's playbook. 100%. And we'll get. We'll get to some of more of that evidence later.

John Dehlin [03:48:56] So Chad didn't believe that he had spiritual powers either. He was.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:48:59] I think Chad Dabel did believe some.

John Dehlin [03:49:01] Okay.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:49:01] That's why I think Jody's even more psychopathic than Chad D. Bell. Maybe.

Megan Connor [03:49:06] Yeah, I think. I think Chad did believe that he had some powers. You know, I think he did believe he has some special. You know, he can download things from.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:49:14] Chad's IQ is just a little bit louder. Lower than Jody's. I would say chat. Jody was smarter than Chad. So, yeah, Chad was just like, oh, like, yeah.

Megan Connor [03:49:22] Anyway.

Mindy Caldwell [03:49:23] Sorry.

Megan Connor [03:49:23] Oh, wait. Julie.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:49:24] And I mean, Chad Daybell. I mean, Chad Daybell and Jody and. Let me. I think that's where we need to clarify.

Megan Connor [03:49:29] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:49:29] When I say Chad right now we're referring to Chad Daybell, not Chad Frankie.

Megan Connor [03:49:32] Right. Go ahead. Yeah. So Chad's idea was. Oh. Julie Rowe had a near death experience. She's filling the Rexburg Tabernacle. Oh, you guys. I guess. What? Kidding. My books were actually real. They were actually near death experiences. And so, you know, he started to then gain some clout. So not very creative. Stealing ideas from other people. Jody was a little bit smarter. But I do think that this idea of, you know, I'm so special and important that I'm being attacked because I'm instrumental in helping people get ready for Jesus to come. And I do agree with you that it was a premeditated manipulation. I think she had tried it out on Paige, Hannah. She learned from her mistakes, if any, that she made there. She wasn't quite successful at getting Paige in the bed with her all the way. And so she refined her technique a little bit, and she said, okay, first I'm going to be possessed, so I'm going to need lots of care and lots of attention. And then I'm going to ask Kevin to cast. Cast these demons out. And when they said casting, I just about fell off my chair, But I recovered.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:50:33] I was all right.

Megan Connor [03:50:35] And then Kevin's gonna fail at casting the demons out. And so then I'm going to ask Kevin to leave because he's not helping. And then I'm going to ask Ruby to come check on me at night. And then I'm going to say, stay with me just till I fall asleep. And then I'm going to say, I need you here the whole night.

John Dehlin [03:50:52] I hadn't.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:50:53] Oh, yeah, yeah. Hallelujah. What you said. Exactly.

Megan Connor [03:50:58] Exactly right here.

Mindy Caldwell [03:50:59] What.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:50:59] What me gonna say, yes, it was to me. I was like, there we go.

John Dehlin [03:51:03] I have a weakness where I just always assume everybody's being sincere.

Megan Connor [03:51:06] Because you're not a criminal, John. Still.

John Dehlin [03:51:08] I know, I know.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:51:10] That's. That's. That's a flex. Take that flex.

Megan Connor [03:51:13] I wouldn't know that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:51:14] You know, I wouldn't know how people manipulate that.

John Dehlin [03:51:15] It's got me in a lot of trouble.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:51:18] You're not a criminal. And. And, you know, we cover true crime crime, so we're always analyzing.

Megan Connor [03:51:22] I came. I came from. I've been surrounded by manipulators controlling people my entire life. So for me now, I cannot unsee it. I just. I see it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:51:34] I want to know what Mindy thinks. She disagrees.

Mindy Caldwell [03:51:38] Yeah, not necessarily. So I. I approached the demonic trance thing thinking three things. You either believe in demonic possession is real, Jody's having a. Some sort of mental episode, or she is a very skilled, calculated manipulator. Right.

John Dehlin [03:51:56] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [03:51:57] So I don't. I personally don't believe in demonic possession. So I. I'm. I'm putting. I'm casting that one aside.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:52:04] Oh, boy. Sorry, ladies.

Mindy Caldwell [03:52:05] I'm putting it aside. So is she having a mental health episode? Is she. Or is she just so calculated and has this planned out? And if she's manipulating, I think I'm falling in maybe a combination of those two. Like, I don't think that Jody is mentally healthy.

Megan Connor [03:52:22] True.

Mindy Caldwell [03:52:23] So I think. I don't know. It was cringy to watch. And I don't know. So I think it's probably likely more manipulation to try to get, you know, isolate Ruby. She involves Kevin at first, and she invites him in to do the. The blessings and the exorcisms. And, and. Did you guys think it was interesting when he said, I would put place my name, my hands on Jody's head, and I would think of every single name of Jesus Christ that I could think of? And every time I would say a new name of Jesus Christ, Jody would wince and react, or the demon would wince and react at the. At the. And. And I almost feel bad kind of mock mocking it. I know that a lot of people really believe in this, but it just seemed like an act to me. Maybe she's having some sort of a depressive episode, a psychotic episode. I think at this point we've pretty much established that we all think that she's a closeted lesbian and is carrying all of that. And these are such great lengths to go to, to find love. I mean, like, there's. There's a part of me that just that feels bad that. That she was never able to express her true self. That's a whole other thing. But I think it's probably, my opinion is mostly calculated manipulation.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:53:47] Okay, I want to explore that theory a little bit more because, like, let's say, I think some people could say, how could you say that Jody's 100amanipulator, and then give Chad day, Bella. Oh, he believes some of it passed. So, like, I think that there's some truth. Like it could be, as you point out, she is not an emotionally healthy individual. And I agree she's a closeted lesbian. Right? Like, that is something she's been denying likely her entire life. She has this insane belief about obedience. And so if Jody even remotely believes. And you know what, let's listen actually to also, let's listen to Jesse Hildebrandt, who said, my Aunt Jody absolutely believes she is going to usher in the second coming of Christ. That comes from Jesse Hildebrandt about Aunt Jody. So. So if Jody believes her beliefs and that's what I give Chad die. Well, then it could be that, like, she is absolutely manipulating and she is deceptive. But in her brain, you know, this. I mean, I don't know. And this is where we need, like, you know, you know, my co host here with us to, like, sort this out. But like, in her brain, she's starting to believe herself, even though she knows this is absolutely manipulation. She's believing that she is meant to usher in the second coming of Christ and she needs Ruby to do it with her. And this is a means to an end. And if you take what Visions of Glory says that like, like you can. You can. You can, you know, take power over people and make choices because it's for the better good, then, you know, maybe. Maybe that's it too. But either way, I guess it's still premeditated manipulation. But if she thought it was for the better good. You know what I mean?

Mindy Caldwell [03:55:20] Yeah, that's an interesting point.

Megan Connor [03:55:22] And by the way, I just want to. I just want to clarify, just in case anybody comes in the comments. She's mentally unhealthy. She's a closeted lesbian. Being a closeted lesbian doesn't make her mentally unhealthy.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:55:33] Oh, of course.

Megan Connor [03:55:33] I thought there was a possibility somebody might take.

Mindy Caldwell [03:55:39] That would never be my intention.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:55:40] Thank you for saying that.

Mindy Caldwell [03:55:41] But I'm. It's an important clarification. I would never, ever combine those two, but thank you.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:55:47] Thank you. And let's clarify. Yeah. Being a lesbian is. There's nothing wrong. Like, it's. It's the wonderment of if she's been denying this part of herself.

Mindy Caldwell [03:55:57] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:55:57] Not even being closeted. Because you're right, some people don't have to share who they are. But to. I think that there's. It's more than being closeted. There's a denial.

Megan Connor [03:56:05] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:56:06] Of her own sexuality.

Megan Connor [03:56:07] Right, Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:56:08] Thank you for bringing that up.

Megan Connor [03:56:09] Yeah. And the. The concept that. That I always come back to is it's just this Jungian idea that we have all these different parts and we all have shadow parts, we all have jealousy, we all have, you know, dark sides. Dark sides to. To our personalities. And we. We have. Have, you know, dark thoughts that we don't. We don't act on them. And that's what makes us more, you know, more human, that we don't act on them. When we deny a part of ourselves, when we silence a part of ourselves and shut it away, eventually it's going to come out sideways somewhere, you know, So I think the point, and the idea is that if there is something that is as important to you as your sexuality and you're not allowed a safe and healthy way to express it. And so therefore you. You shut it away and you deny it any air whatsoever. Again, it's gonna just sort of eat you from the inside and. And it's going to come out in unhealthy ways. So that contributing factor to her poor mental health.

Mindy Caldwell [03:57:05] Sure.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:57:05] Let's put into this perspective too, that Jody is to Chad Dabel as Ruby is to Lori Valo. And I just want to point that out is that's what we're saying, that, that both Chad Daybell and Jody Hildebrandt's motive might have been exactly the same.

Megan Connor [03:57:23] Yep.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [03:57:24] And Ruby was Jody's Laurie. And you know, I just want to point out this, like really strange. That is the copycat of this crime. That is what's so bizarre about this crime is that the motive, whatever their intentions, whatever was manipulation because like Chad was. Chad Dabo was really manipulative too. So whatever, whatever they believed and whatever, you know, was manipulation. The motive was so eerily the same.

Megan Connor [03:57:52] Power, money, sex.

John Dehlin [03:57:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just a couple observations. First of all, there's a couple lesbians in the chat, including Julia, who, who say you don't have to worry, they didn't take offense. So we're off the hook there. Mindy, to your point, people always ask these same questions about Joseph Smith, the Mormon Church's founder and probably the most well renowned, probably the most well respected Joseph Smith historian of all is Dan Vogel, who has this theory of the pious fraud. Was Joseph a believer or was he a fraud? Dan Vogel says both that he actually did believe in Jesus. He did convince himself that God was leading him him, but he was willing to intentionally manipulate people if he felt like it was for a higher cause. So I don't know if you're saying kind of pious fraud maybe.

True Belief Versus Calculated Manipulation

Mindy Caldwell [03:58:45] Yeah. Is that where you're landing?

John Dehlin [03:58:47] Maybe it's possible.

Mindy Caldwell [03:58:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:58:50] But the other thing I was going to say is I'm never going to stop holding unhealthy religious beliefs and or churches responsible because number one, if, if Mormonism and or Christianity didn't have this teaching about evil spirits or demons, when someone started behaving like Jody was behaving, nobody would go, oh, maybe she's really important because Satan's attacking her. They would go, she's speaking in the voice of someone else. That sounds like schizophrenia. Let's take her to the er, let's admit her, let's get her proper, you know, know, let's get her on meds and let's get her submitted to uni and let's get her sufficient medical care. But it's the belief in demons that comes from Jesus, comes from the New Testament, it's in the Bible, but is absolutely interwoven into Mormon doctrine and theology. Book of Mormon, there's possessions, doctrine and covenants, there's possessions in the early founding of the Mormon Church, there's demonic possessions that all the way till now. There's the literal belief that even in the temple ceremony that if you raise your right hand, you can cast out evil spirits using the priesthood. That's all Mormon, that's all Christian. And that's what enables this weird behavior where Jody may think she was really possessed by demons, but also that people around her were willing to believe that she was possessed by demons. They're even consulting the bishop in St. George asking for priesthood blessings, asking Chad or Kevin for a million priesthood blessings instead of just shipping her off to the, to the, you know, instacare and, or, you know, the behavioral health unit, they're trying to treat her with blessings and priesthood blessings, or believing that it's demons. And actually it's. Instead of accruing to her being schizophrenic or mentally ill, it's accruing to. To her having more power and more ability. So again, the Mormon Church or Christianity could denounce those teachings, say Jesus got that part wrong. Evil spirits don't inhabit people. There are no demonic possessions. There's mental health and there's toxic manipulators or a combination of the two. So if anybody claims that an evil spirit is causing them to talk like this, take them to the er, don't follow them as a prophet. You guys are all laughing because it was funny.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:01:22] When they said she was using, she was in a completely different voice. There was something in her. I'm like, that would be Jody's voice talking like this.

Megan Connor [04:01:31] Maven, I really hope you're making shorts out of these. I really want to.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:01:35] Not that one. John.

Megan Connor [04:01:38] I just was going to ask John, why. Why did the blessings not work?

John Dehlin [04:01:45] Well, either because. Either because demons aren't real or the priesthood isn't real, or neither are real.

Megan Connor [04:01:52] Cast your vote in the comments. Yeah, I want to know.

John Dehlin [04:01:54] Or because Kevin was masturbating. So his priesthood power.

Megan Connor [04:01:58] You know what?

John Dehlin [04:01:58] That didn't work.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:01:59] I totally forgot.

Mindy Caldwell [04:02:02] That's kind of how it. Kevin starts getting the script flipped on him right after. He can't cast out these things.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:02:08] It's actually a great question because there are, you know, know the belief in demons of possession is a Christian belief. It's biblical. And there are many people I've talked to, Christians who, Who do believe, you know what I mean? And is it like, you know, that maybe even Ruby was possessed or whatever the case may be?

Mindy Caldwell [04:02:26] So that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:02:26] I'm just saying, like, that is, you know, why didn't it work? You're right. That's a great question for John De Lin.

Megan Connor [04:02:33] That's why I asked John.

Mindy Caldwell [04:02:35] Yes.

Megan Connor [04:02:36] I had the question the man he's most qualified to answer.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:02:39] Oh, yeah, take it away. I, I, you know what, to clarify, I realize that people are saying like, I keep deferring to like my John or John Dehlin, and it does sound like I'm referring to a man. So I do want to clarify. You guys are the ones that have the PhDs in behavior.

Mindy Caldwell [04:02:54] Yes.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:02:55] And criminal psychology. And psychology. So I want to clarify that because I realized I kept saying that and people are like, what the heck? Like, I want to explain that. That's why I kept referring to that.

John Dehlin [04:03:04] Yeah, yeah. And, and I'll just say like, like putting my PhD aside, like, growing up as a Mormon, we were taught that Ouija boards are evil.

Mindy Caldwell [04:03:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:03:12] And they're evil because evil spirits can come into the little friend group if Ouija boards invite evil friends. We're taught as 12 and 14 and 16 year old Mormon boys that one of our powers when we get the priesthood is to cast out evil spirits. I was taught that in seminary growing up. And so those teachings are real. And when they don't work, it's the classic cult technique of blame reversal where if the person chills out, then the priesthood works, but if they don't chill out, then it's because the person performing the ordinances weren't worthy. But it's just toxic, dangerous teachings all the way around.

Megan Connor [04:03:56] Yeah. And we'll get into this later, I'm sure, but Lauren and I were discussing earlier as well that when Jody is possessed and she has an evil spirit, it's a feature, but when the kids have an evil spirit, it's a bug.

John Dehlin [04:04:09] Yeah. That you should chain them up or hand.

Megan Connor [04:04:12] Where were the blessings for the kids? Where were the blessings for the kids? At what point did they say, let's give the kids a blessing, let's, let's take them, you know, let's have a priesthood leader come in and lay hands on a child. That, that didn't happen as far as I remember.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:04:27] Right. That's where, you know, the demonic children were zombies.

John Dehlin [04:04:31] The last thing I'll just say is that on my mission, my mission president, there was a, there was a investigator family that was really rude and mean and hurtful to a missionary, which was an awful thing to experience. My mission president asked me and my companion to go to their home to stand outside of it and perform a cursing ritual. It's called the dusting off of the Feet. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants. And we literally stood there, said a prayer, raised our hands and we cursed the home. And it's to perform a cursing. So it's kind of voodoo, witch doctor stuff, but it's scriptural.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:05:09] Did you know? I did not know that. But, but until this week. I'm this week years old to, to know that because there was a, there's a big article if. Is it the Sam Pete paper that explained they've dropped the charges against David Hamblin this week and it was an in depth article. I'm going to feel so bad if I don't acknowledge the journalists that covered did this article. So I'll look it up. It wasn't Deseret or Salt Lake Tribune, so it was another Utah paper in. They explained how Ken Krog, who's also in this group, went to this house of some people that kept getting targeted and dusted his feet. Well, however did that ritual.

John Dehlin [04:05:51] And it's real. I was told to do it. I did it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:05:53] So, like the fact that Joe, there's Jody and Ken Krogh, you know, this is just kind of, you know, he's, he's a good friend of Tom Harrison and all this crew and Bo's.

John Dehlin [04:06:02] My friend Bo is in the chat and he's saying, John, you know, did the home burn down or did lightning strike it when you walked away? No, no, because it's all made up, Bo. But we thought that, that like maybe someone would get cancer, maybe someone would die. Not that, but again, I was acting under the obedience of my mission president, of course.

Megan Connor [04:06:23] So when you're missing those things that I read in the Doctors Doctrine and Covenants, that, that I thought was part of Joseph Smith's church, but certainly not something we would do today, you know, and, and I'm just stunned to find out that you actually were called by your mission president to go perform that ritual. I've never heard of that before.

John Dehlin [04:06:40] And Miguel, Miguel the alpaca says, yeah, I had a, a companion that did that dusting off the feet ritual. Yeah, it's in the Doctrine and Covenants. So again, that's the problem. Mormon church leaders have. I rhetorically ask why don't they get rid of these teachings about demons? Well, the answer is because Jesus taught it. What are you going to do?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:06:58] It's in the Bible.

John Dehlin [04:06:59] It's in the Bible, but also the dusting of the feet ritual, it's in the Doctrine and Covenants. You could look it up and see it. So you have to Erase the words of the founding prophet, Joseph Smith, to get rid of the dusting of the feet cursing ritual.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:07:11] So I just want to acknowledge this article because I brought it up. It's in the Sam Pete messenger. It's February 21st, and it's by Suzanne Dean. Suzanne Dean, excellent article. There's a lot to unpack, but it comes up. It's an investigative piece after David Hamlin's. The charges against him have been dropped

Mindy Caldwell [04:07:29] and David Hamlin was involved in the allegations of, like, satanic ritualistic child abuse in.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:07:36] And Ken Krogh is a big part of this article. And Ken Krog, who chaired the Ad Hoc Growth Committee in Spring City, speaks to the city council meeting and he's taking a lead role in denouncing the. The Bennions. It's about the Bennions. And the Bennions have obtained a civil stalking injunction against him, which he is now challenging in court. But he dusted his feet off in front of their house and they have it on the doorbell cam. So there you go. Little side thing. And there's a lot to unpack in this article and, and I think more to be even understood, but that if anybody wants an. Oh, you've read it, too.

Megan Connor [04:08:10] Yeah, you said it. It's a, it's a big, big case. It's. It's got deep, deep roots. This is the second time. Yeah. Separate charges have been brought against David Hamlin. Second time that the case has been dismissed, arguably because discovery rules were not followed by the sheriff's office.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:08:28] Three people sent me the article. You're one of them.

Megan Connor [04:08:30] You're right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:08:31] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:08:32] I also just have to say we're really covering this in depth, but in addition to the teachings of demons, it's the teaching of Satan. And again, the Mormon Church can't get rid of the teachings of Satan. Why? Because Satan's in the Bible, Satan's in the Book of Mormon in the Doctrine and Covenants, and Satan's in the temple ceremony. And in the Mormon temple ceremony, Satan's cast out with priesthood power. So even the satanic ritual abuse stuff, which, you know, there are lots of important stories about whether that's a moral panic or whether there's actually abuse there and whether there's evidence for that. I recommend the book Remembering Satan by Lawrence. What's his name, the guy who did Going Clear. Anyway, I recommend the book Remembering Satan if you want to hear one perspective about the satanic ritual abuse stuff. Stuff, it would be great if the church could get rid of this teaching that there's an evil Satan, powerful lord out there controlling a third of God's hosts of heaven children to possess the minds and bodies of humans.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:09:37] I agree with that. Well, I, I, I, Maybe I should share. As someone who identified myself as Christian at the beginning of this or someone that, you know, identifies as. I, I want to say that I do not believe in demon, demonic possession. So I just don't.

John Dehlin [04:09:53] Yeah. And it's Lawrence Wright who's the author of Remembering Satan. Thanks. For those in the chats that are.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:09:59] Oh, good, I was there. It is Lawrence Wright going clear.

John Dehlin [04:10:02] And as I scroll through, I don't mean to jump on, but as I scroll through in the outline, I'm realizing that I was confusing two Jody episodes. Because later, Jody's in a bathroom and she's grunting and she's speaking in the other voices saying, she's mine, she's mine. You know, punching herself. She's punching herself and then she's saying, I own her. And they're filming it.

Megan Connor [04:10:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:10:28] How weird is that? That they're. Why are they filming? You would think if someone was literally being seized by Satan, you'd effing. I don't want to swear you drop the phones and help the person. But they're filming it.

Megan Connor [04:10:42] Great content.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:10:43] No, no. We live in the era of pics. Or it didn't happen.

John Dehlin [04:10:47] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:10:47] They are filming for proof. This is the first time in the world, you know, this is something that's happening. It used to be that when someone says, I was abused, we didn't need evidence. This is like we, we now say, I show us proof. Show us receipts. Pixar didn't happen. I think they were filming for proof or to look back or to understand. And they were used. And they were used to filming.

Megan Connor [04:11:11] Yeah. Because this will be great content when the world does end. You know, Jesus does come.

John Dehlin [04:11:16] She's just watching YouTube influencers in the Second Coming.

Megan Connor [04:11:19] Well, they could. They can prove that Jody, you know, suffered and that she really was the one that, you know, Satan was after her because she was so righteous. And, you know, I agree with you. I think it's a proof sort of a thing.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:11:31] Yeah. Like, I don't even think they were, like, necessarily thinking of using it for content, but they certainly wanted to show people and to like, like understand it and for proof. Or look. Yeah. Or, you know, send it to Paige Hannon. What does she think is this?

Mindy Caldwell [04:11:42] Maybe they're sharing it in the connections.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:11:44] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [04:11:46] Or seeing, like, look what Jody's going through. Like, we really need to pray for her. Satan's really, really trying hard on her.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:11:51] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:11:52] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:11:52] As a journalist, I'm susceptible to filming a lot of things sometimes, too, when I see something that's interesting. But just, like, I just want to, like, you know, that's fair. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:11:58] And it goes on to talk about Kevin saying that he tried to exercise raise the demons, which Mormon men are taught they have the power to do that he would place his hands on Jody's head, command the demons to depart. He would state every name of Jesus that he could think of. I don't know, like, somehow, like, if you have a thesaurus of Jesus alternative names, that's going to make your blessing more powerful. Prince of Peace, Son of Man, Wonderful. Jehovah, the COVID Like, somehow that's going to make. Make God make the blessing power. Right. If you don't say 12 different derivations of Jesus's name, but that the evil spirits were very reactive, that she would thrash and hiss and wail and growl and that it was like every time the name Jesus was mentioned, she would, like, flinch. Like, this is like full Oscar. This is Exorcist level theatrics by Jody. If. If she didn't really believe it. And again, Kevin. They asked Kevin if he believed it, and he said, absolutely, I did. And like you said, Mindy, I think he meant he still believes it, but again, it didn't work. So, like, you know, well.

Megan Connor [04:13:19] And that's when things start to turn sour for Kevin at connections. He's not able to cast the demons out, you know, and so he.

Mindy Caldwell [04:13:27] So she connects the dots. You're not worthy. You're hiding something. You're lying. Because if you were worthy, that's part of her script, right? It's part of her script to isolate Ruby and Kevin from each other. But that's how she's framing it to Kevin. Well, clearly you're not worthy to do this for me.

John Dehlin [04:13:44] Are you masturbating? Are you looking at.

Mindy Caldwell [04:13:46] He was once kind of the. Kind of the. He even says he was the alpha of his group and then becomes the zeta of the group. He just gets.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:13:52] Yeah, he gets all of the.

Mindy Caldwell [04:13:54] All of the bad, you know, feedback and even some of the. The Mr. Heyman rule. Must have been in one of those groups. And he said it just got uncomfortable because Kevin was just like the.

Megan Connor [04:14:07] Everything.

Mindy Caldwell [04:14:09] Yeah, he was just the bad guy for every single thing. And that was such a reversal for Kevin because he was just on cloud nine for so long when he was just kind of. Ruby was loving him and things were going great, and then this cycle of events. So I don't.

John Dehlin [04:14:22] Jody was loving him, and then she turns on him in his group therapy sessions where he's the bad guy.

Mindy Caldwell [04:14:27] Right.

John Dehlin [04:14:28] In the therapy group session, you must be doing.

Mindy Caldwell [04:14:30] You must be hiding something. You must be not being able to rid your. Rid yourself of selfishness. Selfishness seemed to be a big thing. And there's never any confirmation about, like, pornography or masturbation. And it's usually referred to as selfishness, but I think that that had to be part of it. Maybe the selfishness is he just can't give those things up. I'm not sure. I'm not sure if that's what was going on, but it seems like that was a common theme for these men in these practices or in these groups. So it was kind of a 180 on poor Kevin. Well, Kevin. Yeah.

Megan Connor [04:15:01] I just want to point out that when Jody is possessed and she has a demon and Kevin tries to cast the demon out, he's not able to. It's not Jody's fault that she's possessed. She's not doing anything wrong for being

John Dehlin [04:15:16] wicked and pure Ruby. Right, Right.

Megan Connor [04:15:21] She's not possessed because she's done something wrong, because she's. Because she's in distortion.

John Dehlin [04:15:26] Right.

Megan Connor [04:15:26] The blame lies with the person who wasn't able to cast the demon out. Oh, it's his fault. Not only that he's the one who's

John Dehlin [04:15:33] bad acting, but Jody parlays it in literally sleeping with Ruby every night and kicking Kevin out of his bedroom, if he was even sleeping there to begin with. It was.

Megan Connor [04:15:40] It was Sherry's bedroom.

John Dehlin [04:15:43] Remember?

Mindy Caldwell [04:15:43] They took over Sherry's bedroom.

John Dehlin [04:15:44] But again, we say cults are always about money, power, and sex. And sure enough, Jody's parlaying the demonic possession into what I think many are feeling like was some sort of sexual relationship between Ruby.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:15:55] Absolutely right.

John Dehlin [04:15:56] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:15:57] Jody is to. Yeah, yeah. Chad Dabel is, you know, Ruby is to Lori Valo. It's very eerily. Yeah. Power, money, sex.

The Mormon Church's Role Left Unexamined

John Dehlin [04:16:08] So I was enraged at this point at the fact that the Mormon Church was just getting a pass. There was no discussion in the documentary about Mormon doctrine, about Mormon theology, about Mormon priesthood, power, about Mormon teachings of deity, demons, and the second coming. It just. The church got a complete pass in this documentary. Were any of you enraged about that? There's no analysis. I guess that's why we've got 3,500 people. Please subscribe and like this channel, do Hidden True Crime and Midlife Revolution, Megan's Channel. As well, thank you for subscribing. We have 3,500 people. Maybe that's why we exist. But were any of you upset that there was no discussion of, of Mormon doctrine, theology, culture and policy informing and history informing? The repetition of this sort of garbage. Is that journalistic irresponsibility or is that just editorial? Got to keep the story tight. We don't need, you know. Or is it fear that the Mormon church is worth $300 billion and could sue the pants off the documentary filmmakers? Or is it the Franke family stipulating? We'll do the story, but no criticizing the church. Answer that question.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:17:21] Well, I think it's angle. As a journalist. I wasn't upset because I wasn't expecting it. This is the story of Kevin Frankie. He gets to tell it in his own words. That is what the angle of this documentary was. And I don't believe that the Frankies would have ever participated in a documentary and given their family footage to a documentary company. That said our angle is going to be policies and systems in the LDS Church. If they don't want you to be a part of this documentary, John, that's not their angle. And so I think that I didn't

John Dehlin [04:17:57] want to be part of the documentary. I just want, I want our culture to get improved.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:18:01] I know you did it, but I guarantee you they didn't want you. My point is you brought up that they didn't want you in the 2020. They're going to have some ownership in this for sure in, in this documentary into while, you know, we can just. They also only have three episodes. But I think, again, what I think this documentary is going to do is set the stage for a further discussion, which is what we're doing now and some other documentaries that will perhaps come out. But I mean, maybe it was wrong and you guys can ask. It might be wrong. I guess maybe I'm just saying I wasn't, wasn't shocked or disappointed because I wasn't expecting it to go into that.

Megan Connor [04:18:40] But yeah, I'm the same way. I wasn't expecting it because I think the church gets a pass a lot. And I think for all the reasons you listed, John, mainly fear of repercussions and things like that, but I'm actually glad that they didn't cover that angle because that means the band has to cover it. So that's why we're here. And that just gives me an excuse to come spend time with you beautiful humans.

Mindy Caldwell [04:19:03] I don't, I don't think I was enraged. I wouldn't use the word enraged.

John Dehlin [04:19:07] I'm exaggerating.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:19:09] No, whatever. Own it. Own it. You're enraged, right?

Mindy Caldwell [04:19:11] I think as, as a believing Mormon my whole life, you know, for four decades, like, I could, I could connect the dots between the fertile soil of mainstream Mormon teachings informing all of this stuff that's happening. But I could also see where, because I did this as a Mormon, you're living your life and you're doing your Mormon things and you're, you know, talking about Satan a lot and Satan's a big part of, of Mormon doctrine. I remember sometimes coming home from church and thinking God. I feel like on particular days I feel like I learned more about Satan than I learned about Jesus today. No, I'm not every time, of course, but it's just a big part, right? And then, but I remember hearing stories about these off groups like Lafferties or, you know, when I was a kid and, or, you know, Mark Hoffman and, and these interesting things that would happen, these crazy stories that you'd sometimes hear happening, knowing that they were lds. And it's so easy to just be like they're other than us. You know, they're. Those people have kind of gone off the rails and mainstream Mormons don't believe that. It's really hard to make that connection. But I, you know, to, to go through that canyon of like confirmation bias and, and trying to figure out or trying to differentiate between these people that go off the rails, quote, unquote, and then your mainstream Mormon beliefs, but they really are so intertwined and they, and all of mainstream Mormonism informs these split off things and these like cults within, you know, the cult and going off on these stories that we hear. But as soon as it gets uncomfortable and people are getting hurt and things are happening, then it's very easy for mainstream, mainstream members, I think, to be like, oh, they're not, they're not part of us. They were doing their own thing, you

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:20:56] know, Another one, another crime I think that's really important to point out is Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper and who was inspired by Avram Gileadi. And I think had YouTube existed at that moment, it would have been a different, it would have taken on a different type of a story too. When she was rescued and we discovered who her kidnapper was and what he was inspired by, I think that's another one too.

John Dehlin [04:21:16] But also Avraham inspired Tom Harrison. Avram signed.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:21:19] Avram has defended the book Visions of Glory. He is, he is actively right now defending the book Visions of Glory and Tom Harrison. This, these legs have power. Yes, is the point. And it had power even over Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper. But again, Elizabeth stays in the church and she serves a mission and we, it is separate, you know, I mean, it's true, it's all under the umbrella of Mormonism, but, you know, you can decipher between, you know, these different beliefs.

John Dehlin [04:21:45] But, but I, I've said this in other episodes. For me, if all true crime does is deal with the symptoms, the blood, the murder, the rape, the torture, the, the, the mug shots and the, the court hearings and the sentencing, if that's all it focuses on and it doesn't spend any time on the cultural components that create the true crime and that perpetuate the repetition of seeing these crimes appear decade after decade, generous, generation after generation, then I think it's irresponsible. So I don't say this stuff because I want to make the church look bad. I actually want to improve the Mormon Church. I want it to hurt less people and help more people. It's not because I want to attack the church, make it look bad. I just want to fix the root fruit of the problem. And that's why ALL wasn't going to bring up religion, doctrine, theology, Mormon culture and practices.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:22:45] And it helps us look at ourselves too, you know, to those that criticize the idea that we must, you know, that it's important to discuss true crime over and over and over again. A hidden true crime. We say a better understanding of crime is a better understanding of ourselves. And you said that yourself, John. You said, I, I don't, I don't. I never see it, you know, and I said, I joked, it's because you're not a criminal. But I think, think that this is where the study of crime teaches us about humanity and the study of humans and the study of coercive control and the study of, you know, everything that happens when it shouldn't happen and how we can understand this, you know, as long as humans have existed, crime has existed. And it's really important to try to process why. Because it is loss, it is grief, it is, it is nothing anyone should have to deal with. And it is a part of who we are as human beings.

John Dehlin [04:23:29] Beans. Amen. So as we, we're only finishing up episode two. As we round up episode two, it gets to Kevin being kicked out. Kevin rounding the children together to tell them he's leaving. Chad being kicked out. It's so heartbreaking. While Kevin's, like telling the children he's leaving, Ruby is apparently Videoing it and photographing it. She has a smirk on her face saying, this is such good content. What do you all want to say about Kevin and Chad being kicked out? Basically, Jody taking over the family at

Mindy Caldwell [04:24:09] that point, John, they were invited to leave. Get it right.

John Dehlin [04:24:14] That's right. Were you all heartbroken by that? Were you?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:24:17] I think the one is some of the most heartbreaking, heartbreaking footage was him saying goodbye. They as this documentary is wild because everything is filmed, like, everything in real time, and we have pictures. Or was it video? I don't even know now of the B roll is either photos or video of Kevin Frankie cheerfully saying goodbye to his youngest children as he walks out the door, like, literally abandoning them. And he states, I was their last line of defense. Line of defense. And you see it. And it's true that I did want to scream at the screen, like, what the hell are you doing? At that moment. I was never angrier, Adam, than in that moment. But it is so sad to see them just being kicked out or being invited to leave.

Mindy Caldwell [04:25:03] There was a lot happening, it seems, around that time. Kevin is invited to leave. I think we need to talk about Chad essentially being blamed for Jody having her demonic possessions in their house, which I thought was so unfair to Chad and so hurtful.

John Dehlin [04:25:21] Is that a porn? A porn thing?

Mindy Caldwell [04:25:23] Well, no. Well, he said he. He said he'd been making great progress with Jody, and. And he's. And Jody encouraged him to confess or to tell Ruby some of the things that was going on. And I guess previously he hadn't been telling Ruby what had been going on in his therapy session. So he goes to Ruby, and again, my mind's going. Calculated manipulation going on right here. Go tell your mom.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:25:47] Go tell your mother.

Mindy Caldwell [04:25:48] Tell your mom what you told me.

John Dehlin [04:25:50] And so he's therapy.

Mindy Caldwell [04:25:51] In therapy. It's just. So he tells Ruby, he confronts or he goes to Ruby and says, mom, Jody encouraged me to talk to you. I just wanted to let you know that I. I'm terrible at paraphrasing sometimes, but he said. He said, let me just read it. He said, I pretty much confessed to her that, you know, while Jody was in the home, I was viewing pornography. I was making out with girls at nighttime behind your back. And I have never, ever seen my mom more distraught. I've never seen her more red in the face. But it wasn't anger. It was sadness. She was bawling. She, like, couldn't breathe. And now she was crying. Then she kind of got surprised because it clicked. Oh, my gosh. Everything that happened to Jody, all the possessions, all the attacks, all the satanic attacks that were happening to Jody, it was all because of you and what you were doing behind our back. She wiped away the tears and then was back to Sirius. And she said, chad, it's time you leave the home. So he is invited to leave, Kevin is invited to leave. They are instructed by Ruby and Jody to break all contact with Sherry. It's just this massive change. Just a bomb goes off in the Frankie house with all of this happening.

Megan Connor [04:27:04] This was one of the most alarming moments to me was Chad's description of how Ruby reacted. And it was like three different personalities within the space of less than two minutes, where we see Ruby going from angry to sad to having that manipulative dawning where she blames everything on him and then, boom, back to Sirius. It's time you leave.

Mindy Caldwell [04:27:30] Yep.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:27:31] And you are. You made me realize even more than ever just how calculated this was. I didn't put that together until you just said it was Jody that told

Megan Connor [04:27:39] Chad to tell us.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:27:42] And that means. And this is like all that triangulation and manipulation. Jody knows exactly what she's doing. She's prepped Ruby to say he needs consequences. He has to be kicked out. And if anybody there is, there's something, there's sin going around and that's why I'm possessed. We've got to figure it out. I guarantee you she was completely prepped Jody completely prepped Ruby to react the way she reacted to Chad. I didn't even. It didn't even occur to me just how calculated it was that it was Jody that told Chad Frankie to tell his mother? This was again all plotted and planned.

Megan Connor [04:28:13] And wasn't it Chad that said that he realized that Jody was waiting for a time when he could. Could blame both him and his father at the same time and get rid of them at the same time.

Mindy Caldwell [04:28:26] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, he does say that right after there. There goes my phone, he said. The interviewer asks Chad, did it make any sense to you at the time, moving out? And Chad replies, yeah, I really thought I was messing with the house. I was messing with the spirit in the house. But I think that was my mom and Jody's perfect chance to find something wrong with me and my dad at the same time and kick us out together.

John Dehlin [04:28:51] What does that do to a kid who's 18 to be told he's under the influence of Satan, his evil is destroying the harmony in the home, that he's responsible for the dad being kicked out and for the spirit to not be able to do its work in the home, that's a lot for Chad.

Megan Connor [04:29:12] It is. I think the psychological damage is, is that you believe what your parents say about you. You trust them.

John Dehlin [04:29:20] It's not just parents. It's God.

Megan Connor [04:29:22] Well, yes, and yes. Your parents are telling you what God thinks of you, too. Right. And it's this identity crisis that you have where, you know, you think, okay, well, it's my parents. I believe my parents. I believe what they say about me. I believe what they say about God, so I must be the problem. And they internalize that. And it takes decades to get over sometimes.

John Dehlin [04:29:46] Yeah, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:29:50] Do we want to talk about just that episode ending with Sherry goes back to the house. She's been notified by Ruby that she's getting canceled off of the health insurance and the car insurance. She has some items at the home that she wants to pick up, and she has her friend Teresa Hammond or Haman go along with her. And Sherry's totally distraught. She's crying and shaking, tears streaming down her face. Teresa's upset. And Teresa says the only person that had no emotion was Ruby. She was stone cold zero emotion. Only anger and animosity and defense. I did not know how a mom who gave birth to someone could sit there like that and listen to their daughter weep and beg. It was horrible. I wanted to get Sherry out of there.

John Dehlin [04:30:37] So, like, I. I don't know. I. I've. I know y' all enough to have a good sense for how you parent. But, like, clearly Ruby, by the end, gets to the point where she's allowing her kids to be tortured and mutilated,

Mindy Caldwell [04:30:54] but she's perpetrating the torture.

John Dehlin [04:30:59] But, like, at this point point, I'm trying to relate to a parent. Like, spouse is gone. Two of my kids are gone, not even caring when they're sobbing in front of me. What's going on with Ruby? Was she always that way? Or did she. Was she being changed by Jody or changed by the trauma of the situation? Was she always a calloused, uncaring, psychopathic mom?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:31:28] I think it's what Sherry said. Sherry said early on, you guys quoted her. Well, she went from abusive to psychopathic. And something else she said at the end of Was at the end of episode one or episode two. That, and I'll just paraphrase it. This is. This is what we say, a hidden true crime. Jody gave Ruby permission to be that way. This is who Ruby was, and Jody gave her the permission mission to do it. And I think that Sheri says as much at the end of episode one. Episode two, you quoted her. And that's exactly what Sherry says in a different term. But that's how we say it. Like, Jody gave Ruby permission to be the person she always was. Like, nobody can. If you feel like you want to hurt kids, you can't just do it. It's against the law. It's bad parenting. But here comes a guru who gives her permission to be who she's always really wanted to be and then puts in her some really crazy beliefs about her children being evil.

John Dehlin [04:32:22] So you're saying Ruby never had that normal motherly empathy for her?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:32:28] I don't know. And then Sherry's book doesn't say that. Sherry's book says that her mother always said we can't be friends, that I'm in charge of you, that this was an authoritarian relationship. This is about obedience and obeying and doing what I say. I, I think that is, that is Ruby's belief in parenting is, it's, it's about obedience and discipline and not about being a friend. And no, I, I, I do doubt that she ever had intense empathy for

John Dehlin [04:32:59] her children as mothers. I'm just wondering if y' all can relate to that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:33:04] It's heartbreaking.

Megan Connor [04:33:04] Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible.

John Dehlin [04:33:06] You get the book.

Megan Connor [04:33:07] Yeah. So I, I have this in the book, but also I want to point out, too, that, that Kevin says this in the beginning of, of episode one is that love is obedience. Obedience is love. Right. And if you don't obey, then you're going to fear me.

Generational Trauma and Strict Obedience

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:33:22] Right.

Megan Connor [04:33:23] He made statistics. And he also says that the filmmaker asks, where did he. Where did she get it from? And he says it was taught to her.

Mindy Caldwell [04:33:30] It was modeled.

Megan Connor [04:33:31] It was modeled to her.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:33:33] Right. I have a feeling that there's probably blanket training in the Griffith home. I'm gonna be honest.

John Dehlin [04:33:37] I think a lot of people wonder whether she was abused.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:33:40] There was obedience. Yeah, there was a lot of obedience training in the Griffith home. You know, so, yeah, a lot of control. And so if you are taught, I, I think this is actually, honestly, if you want to look at it, this might be, this might be what happens to a child who is taught severe obedience. This is what you get. And she even said in that case by case thing of what she was looking for in a husband, she wanted a decision, discipline, disciplinarian. As you said, obedience was love. Love was obedience. And if not, you're going to fear her. That is who Ruby is. And then she stated that in her her call. This is one of those eerie moments on the. The jailhouse call. This isn't in the documentary. I'm surprised that a lot more people haven't put this out. But there's a jailhouse call when she was first arrested, and she starts crying to Kevin. She says, I'm not a naughty girl. I'm not naughty. I'm not naughty.

Mindy Caldwell [04:34:32] I really think childlike.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:34:34] It's very childlike. And I think that goes back back to this. Like, she has to be obedient. Why is she in jail? Excuse. It was. It was not a prison call. It was a jail call. Excuse me, but like, this is about a child who was taught severe obedience as a child. And this is what you get.

Megan Connor [04:34:51] Yeah, yeah. So in. In Jody's. Sorry. In Sherry's book, this is from page 107 where she's talking about Ruby and Jody kind of coming together. She says Jody's connections doctrine wasn't so much a revelation to Ruby as it was a mirror reflecting and magnifying the harsh worldview she'd always held. After all, Ruby had always doled out love like a miser with coins, making her affection contingent on a prolonged demonstration of good behavior. In her world, love wasn't a given. It was a prize to be earned through perfect conduct. A carrot dangle just out of reach to keep us constant, constantly striving, constantly proving ourselves worthy. Connections wasn't introducing Ruby to a new way of thinking. It was giving her the vocabulary and pseudo scientific backing to justify what she'd been doing all along.

Mindy Caldwell [04:35:46] Wow.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:35:47] That's so good. That's so good.

Mindy Caldwell [04:35:48] So good.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:35:49] Sherry, thanks for reading that.

John Dehlin [04:35:50] Can you imagine having your kid write that about you, though?

Mindy Caldwell [04:35:52] I know.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:35:54] And you know what, by the way. And that. That's. That's a kid. Ruby is a kid who was taught strict obedience. She. She learned that. She.

Megan Connor [04:36:00] Somewhere.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:36:00] I just want to say, like, you know, if you want to talk about generational.

John Dehlin [04:36:04] And again, I. People may get bored with it, but Mormon doctrine and theology is obedience. The first law of heaven, according to Mormonism, is what? Obedience.

Megan Connor [04:36:13] Obedience.

John Dehlin [04:36:14] Obedience is the first law of heaven. And there are even modern Mormon apostles that teach that God's love is conditional, that it's blasphemous to suggest that God's love is unconditional. And I'm talking about David Bednar, Mormon Apostle teaches that God's love is not conditional.

Megan Connor [04:36:32] God's. God loves everyone. But the fullness of his divine approval.

John Dehlin [04:36:37] Yeah.

Megan Connor [04:36:38] Is conditional upon obedience. And we always heard this growing up, that obedience Brings blessings. Perfect obedience. Brings miracles.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:36:48] That is absolutely horrible. And I just want to say if there are any God fearing people listening, I want to say that like, God loves you unconditionally. Like, I just want to make that clear. I know there's a spectrum of beliefs that listen to you and us. And if you're a God fearing individual, God loves you unconditionally.

John Dehlin [04:37:05] Amen.

Megan Connor [04:37:06] Period.

John Dehlin [04:37:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also the Book of Mormon. If people sinned, they get cursed and calamities happen to them. And anyway, was that, Was that all, Megan?

Megan Connor [04:37:19] Yeah, okay. Okay. That was it.

John Dehlin [04:37:22] So, I mean. Yeah. What a poop show. By the end of episode two, trying to filter.

Megan Connor [04:37:30] And if you thought that was bad.

John Dehlin [04:37:31] Yeah.

Megan Connor [04:37:32] We start out episode three.

John Dehlin [04:37:34] Yeah.

Megan Connor [04:37:35] With I wondered. A podcast from Ruby.

Mindy Caldwell [04:37:37] Oh yeah.

Megan Connor [04:37:38] Where she says, your woke child is a walking zombie and it's your job as a parent to. To wake the zombie up.

Mindy Caldwell [04:37:47] So at this point, eight passengers had totally converted over to Moms of Truth. And then they're posting these increasingly problematic videos.

Megan Connor [04:37:57] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [04:37:58] Including that.

Megan Connor [04:38:00] Right. Which by the way, I just want to point this out that if you go to Spotify right now, all of the Jody and Ruby podcasts are still available as. As of just a few hours ago, as we checked. And the. There. There are several podcasts that are made leading up to their arrest which are very problematic. I don't know how you get stuff like this removed from Spotify, but I think given the fact that Jody and Ruby have both been convicted and are now serving time for child abuse, I think it is time to take the podcast down.

John Dehlin [04:38:31] Could someone grab them first?

Mindy Caldwell [04:38:32] I don't know about that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:38:33] Actually. I like them. I, I want people to see exactly who they are.

John Dehlin [04:38:37] Their testimony.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:38:38] This is. These are the basic beliefs that led to. I mean, I hear you, I hear you. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Well, I just, like, I'm like. I don't know, like for me, I'm just like, you want to listen to, you know, But I don't know, I

Megan Connor [04:38:48] just would hate for somebody to stumble across them. Unexpectedly true. And not know who these people are. Oh. And try to find something redeemable in there and get led astray. Right. So while I agree with you. Yes. Like expose them for who they are. I've got them downloaded. I'm happy to unpack them on our channel.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:39:07] Okay.

Megan Connor [04:39:07] I'm going to.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:39:08] Maybe that. Maybe that was totally selfish. Maybe I was like, wait, I don't have them downloaded.

Megan Connor [04:39:11] Hold on.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:39:12] Pause.

Megan Connor [04:39:12] Send them to you okay.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:39:13] If you have them downloaded, we're good. Yeah. Take them down. What Megan said.

Mindy Caldwell [04:39:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:39:17] And when we, when we heard this quote, your woke child is a walking zombie. Are we projecting visions of glory into that or do you really think. Because that, the zombie thing. I think that was Chad Bell. So do you think, do you think by this point Jody Hildebrandt was believing the Chad Dabel zombie doctrine?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:39:39] I think so. Okay, well, let's, let's say what I suspect. This is. This is speculation with evidence. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sorry. I'm talking a lot. I should listen more. I'll do that after this. But first I'm going to talk, but I'm going to share something that's a little bit of tea too you. That I, that I've heard speculation. So. So this would be Chad Dabel doctrine calling children that are possessed zombies. It would also be a little bit of Julie Rowe doctrine. She is also referred to zombies in her. In her podcast, you know, about casting out zombies. So, so that's Chad Dabel. Julie Rowe. We do know from three separate very, very good sources that Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell were meeting with Tom Harrison. We also know that Jody Hildebrandt was meeting with Tom Harrison because they actually appeared together in multiple times. We have video of those multiple times. Tom Harrison again is the. The alleged writer or is his visions that are in Visions of Glory. John Pontius, the. The author is. Is dead. I also know that, you know, we know that Lori and Chad loved Visions of Glory and Visions of Glory. I recently brought it out actually for the, for, for Keith Morrison. Recently I was reading to Keith Morrison some of Visions of Glory. I don't think it's going to make it into Dayline, but I tried so. But, but I've recently been looking over it and it is about possessed spirits. It is about children being possessed. It's about. There's, there's definitely like some past life stuff and taking, you know, killing people. So where does the zombie thing come from? Zombies aren't necessarily mentioned in Visions of Glory. Portals are. But I also know, and here's the tea. I know from someone that has heard jailhouse phone calls with Lori Valo in Idaho, things that will probably never ever be released in FOIA documents that they're consistently and constantly talking about Visions of Glory and, and somebody named Tom, whoever that might be. And I, I do wonder where this teaching of zombies comes from. No one's been able to pinpoint it.

Mindy Caldwell [04:41:50] It.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:41:50] They don't. But it's a Chad Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [04:41:53] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:41:54] Possessed spirits are. I haven't been able to see the word zombie. The word, not the word, but possessed spirits. What zombies are is envisions of glory. And so where is this coming from? Chad Dabel has mentioned it, Julie Rowe has mentioned it, and Jody Hildebrandt has mentioned it. So where is it coming from? We don't know. But I have certainly wondered if there is, again, some sort of wizard of Oz and some hidden teachings within a group that is talking about zombies. I'll leave it at that. If anyone has information, like, let John know. But I guess I'm not gonna, like, say exactly what I think, but I think I've given enough to infer some suspicions I have.

John Dehlin [04:42:32] And whether or not, you know, Jody and Ruby were influenced by Chad Dabel's teaching of zombies, it's clear that by the time those kids are taken to St. George, they're being treated like they're possessed with demonic spirits. And the demonic spirits have taken over the kids and that they're being. The children are being abused. And we'll get to this with the belief that that Ruby is. Is abusing the evil spirits inside the children and that it's either the evil spirits get driven away and the kid survives or the kid dies as they're punishing the evil spirits. And that is the zombie teaching.

Mindy Caldwell [04:43:15] Right.

John Dehlin [04:43:16] Even if the word zombie that was used was not, you know, the Chad Daybell type of zombie. Am I wrong?

Megan Connor [04:43:23] No, I think that's. I think that's absolutely correct. It's important to point out the timing of this, though. This, you know, zombie podcast comes out in early 2022 by this time.

John Dehlin [04:43:34] Interesting.

Megan Connor [04:43:35] Lori's on trial.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:43:37] That's true. This is where I think it might be a copycat. So is this Chad Daybell's teachings? This could be Chad's date. Chad Daybell's, Yeah. And Lori Valo's teachings? Well, as Lori says, she's never mentioned zombies, only chat as she refers them. Aziz Aziz.

Megan Connor [04:43:48] That's right. That's right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:43:50] But then it seems like this secret underground teaching, too, like Laura's, like, I've never mentioned zombies. It's just Z's that I talk about.

Megan Connor [04:43:56] Gaslighting, obviously. Right. You know, so.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:43:59] Well, it's almost like they know it's like this. You know, it's not the doctrine you always talk about, but they're all talking about it.

Mindy Caldwell [04:44:04] But.

Megan Connor [04:44:05] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:44:05] You know, Julie Rose taught workshops on zombies. She's advertised it like, I just. Where is it coming from? Is it Chad Bell? Is it? And And I want to say, I guess the jailhouse calls. What I mean is, like, I've learned this from someone that's listened to all the jailhouse calls of, like, Lori and Chad. Like, there is a lot of talk about what does Tom say? And like, you know, visions of glory. So, like, where is. Like, what is not in visions of glory? It's not. So, like, where is this coming from? Is it coming from Chad? Is it coming from Tom? Is it coming from just the group as a whole? Is it coming from Julie Rowe? Maybe it's a Julie Rowe thing. Is it Jody?

Megan Connor [04:44:36] Or is it.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:44:36] You're right, maybe just Jody was copying chat.

Megan Connor [04:44:38] I don't know. I think I. I think you and I have some of the same suspicions that, you know, there's. There's a person who's sort of directing the actors in this group, but I don't know who it is, whether or not they're using, you know, the same exact terminology. It's the same ideas, you know, they're. They're perpetuating the same harmful ideas. And, you know, my fear has been all along, as I think I've shared with you guys many, that, that there are more people out there who believe what Chad was teaching. If. If not believing Chad himself, believing in Chad's teachings, believing in visions of glory, and having similar ideas that people can be possessed, and that there are ways to try to get rid of those demons, but if the demon doesn't go, then the body dies. Right. And so my always, my. My mantra on this is keep talking about it, keep calling attention to it. You know, keep calling it out so that more people aren't harmed and. And more children aren't harmed?

John Dehlin [04:45:41] Yeah. Well, Mindy, do you want to take us through some of the timeline and. Or, you know, important moments that you. That you noted in the early to mid part of that.

Episode Three: Discovery, Arrest, and Aftermath

Mindy Caldwell [04:45:51] Of episode three?

John Dehlin [04:45:52] Yeah, of episode three.

Mindy Caldwell [04:45:53] Episode three. It's titled Truth. I think at this point, Kevin's out of the home. Ruby. Ruby is posting videos where she rings this giant bell on the mantel, and all of the kids walk down the stairs, like, wrapped in blankets. It's just very creepy. And then you see the kids, like, all, like, engaged in pretty extensive housework. You know, like one of the. The little boys is carrying a big garbage sack and they're just busy and they're working and she's. She's saying some. She says the zombie thing and she. So in episode three, we hear a lot from. From those neighbors that were introduced in episode one. There's the McLean's and there's the. I can't remember all their last names, first names. It was Lisa and there's Matthew and Sydney and Kevin and there's er and, and yes, Grant. And so they're, they're starting to see these videos that are happening but they are not seeing the children coming outside and, and so they're getting concerned and they're noticing that Ruby's car is gone for extended periods, you know, several days in a week. And one day Ruby happened to be outside and the neighbor Matthew, he asked, he asked Ruby what happened to Kevin. I think they probably assumed that Kevin would come back soon. And then, you know, the months are dragging on. And Ruby replied every marriage should have a separation. She said it could be a year. She said it could be five years. And then the neighbor Sydney said, we did not know what was wrong, but we knew that something was wrong. I think if anything we hoped that Kevin would come home and either remedy the situation or get those kids away from what we were starting to feel was a very dangerous situation.

John Dehlin [04:47:41] It was a client condies, right?

Mindy Caldwell [04:47:43] Yes. Oh, it's Sydney. Yeah. So. And then we see Kevin in his new, his new apartment that he's moved into and he's just talking about being a total hermit. I'm assuming he's still going to work. I'm not sure the timeline if he's still employed at BYU or if he is no longer employed at byu, but he's just in, in this catatonic state of, you know, just waiting for permission to.

John Dehlin [04:48:12] Forbidden to talk to.

Mindy Caldwell [04:48:13] Forbidden to talk to his children or his wife and can't, you know, can't call anybody. And just that level of control that they had over him is quite astounding to me considering that he's clearly an educated man and you know, as you were mentioning before is well known in his circles for his scholarship. It's, it's quite unbelievable to me that he was able to get to that point where he was just, just completely in their control and doing what they were telling him to do.

John Dehlin [04:48:42] Sher shares the point where she texts him and says, I love and miss you.

Mindy Caldwell [04:48:46] And he hearts, he hearts it and then hearts it. And then she go out and no, keep going.

John Dehlin [04:48:53] She. And then I think he blocked her.

Mindy Caldwell [04:48:55] Yeah, she. Well, she replies, dad, she's. And she. These are Sher's words. She says, pull your head out of your ass and like do something. And then she comes, gets blocked. And so One of the YouTube comments that were coming in during this episode where these kind of culty, creepy videos were coming out, this comment said. A YouTuber comment said, gonna see Ruby on a true crime podcast. Which we laugh, but it's not funny. It's dark.

John Dehlin [04:49:25] Yeah. So Kevin's asked at one point, why didn't you stand up to Jody? And he says, if they. I dwell on that question, it eats me alive.

Mindy Caldwell [04:49:33] Wow.

Megan Connor [04:49:35] Right?

Mindy Caldwell [04:49:35] So the first call to the police from Sherry is on September 18th of 2022. And the neighbors had been texting Sherry. And then the police come, and it looked like on the video that there was quite a large police presence that day. Several officers came and Grant collared the neighbor. He texted Kevin, he said, I'm like, hey, man, you have four cop cars outside your house.

Megan Connor [04:49:59] House.

Mindy Caldwell [04:50:00] Hope things are okay. What's going on? And he said, no response. The guy's totally brainwashed at this point. Just gone. And then another friend, Matt, texted Kevin and said, kevin, you cannot abandon your family. And Kevin blocked him, and he said, that was shocking. And this. This video from Ruby where she says, if your kid came to you on fire, you throw them on the ground and you start rolling them, they're going to say, you're hurting me. You're beating me. You're controlling. It's like, no, dear, hold still. I'm getting the fire out. And that was one of the most alarming videos that she posted where I think people were just like, oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [04:50:36] Because it's abuse. It's child abuse.

Mindy Caldwell [04:50:38] Well, it just. It's just a horrific description, you know, metaphorically or not. And. And we learned later that clearly she was abusing those kids.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:50:46] But.

Mindy Caldwell [04:50:47] But alarm bells just going off everywhere. But it was investigated and they weren't able to. You should talk. You should mention the thing from Kristen that she said about. About how what she wished she had told the police. Do you remember that part?

John Dehlin [04:51:00] Do I have to look forward? Is it a little bit forward in the timeline?

Mindy Caldwell [04:51:05] It's. It's Kristen. Is it Collard is their last name. Oh, where she. She wishes that she had lied.

John Dehlin [04:51:11] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:51:12] So, yeah, that was so good. You had mentioned that.

John Dehlin [04:51:14] Oh, no, it's there. Yeah. Yeah. So she says she wished. Yeah, it was.

Mindy Caldwell [04:51:19] It was Kristen.

John Dehlin [04:51:20] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:51:21] She's.

John Dehlin [04:51:21] She's crying and she's feeling responsible, and she says she wish you would have lied and said that she saw bruises. Because when the police come that first time, they don't go in, they don't have a search warrant. And then DCFS ends up saying, unless we see Physical signs of abuse. We can't really do anything. So Kristen is basically sobbing, saying, I wish I just would have lied and said I saw bruises or marks because then the kids could have been saved much earlier.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:51:50] Yeah. Yeah, that was a sad moment. Of course, to her, hindsight's 20 20.

John Dehlin [04:51:55] You know, I can't blame her.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:51:56] Yeah, you can't blame her at all.

Mindy Caldwell [04:51:58] I think they were doing something behind the scenes. Yes. So eventually Sherry is contacted by the. The worker for Child Protective Services, or dcfs, and says, I'm sorry, we have to close this case. And the. The caseworker said, personally, I want you to know that I'm really concerned, but there's no. Nothing we can do at this point. So sad.

John Dehlin [04:52:20] And the family.

Mindy Caldwell [04:52:21] Fast forward to 10 months later.

John Dehlin [04:52:22] Family. Yeah, that was a big gap, wasn't it? Just this huge gap. And all of a sudden we're in, like, August of. Of 2023. August 30th, 2023. Yeah. And that's when. When the sun just sort of like gingerly walks up to a neighbor's in Ivan, Utah, walks up to the neighbor's house with the bandages or the Saran Wrap or the duct tape around his ankles and wrists.

Mindy Caldwell [04:52:49] Clearly malnourished. And. Yep.

John Dehlin [04:52:52] I was asked. This is kind of graphic, but it was suggested that at least once we kind of show a little bit. And I think. I think for some reason the documentary. I saw this video in a new light, and I'm just going to warn people that this is. This is a very graphic image, but this is the photo of the sun. And this looks like Auschwitz, you know, level, you know, emaciation, scratches, starvation.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:53:26] Done by his own mother, I want to point out, nonetheless.

John Dehlin [04:53:30] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:53:30] Concentration camp run by his mother.

John Dehlin [04:53:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:53:39] The detective, Jessica Bait, describes that she personally had never seen, you know, some of the indications of abuse in her experience.

John Dehlin [04:53:51] Did she say there were tendons?

Mindy Caldwell [04:53:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:53:53] Showing.

Mindy Caldwell [04:53:54] Yeah, she just. Yeah, she was able to see through. Through the front side of his. Of his leg. She. You could visualize, like, the tendons, like the Achilles.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:54:02] And you could see bones through the wounds. Like, bone. Like, the wounds were so deep. You could see bone went to the bone, covered in cayenne and pepper. And that was clear. He'd been.

John Dehlin [04:54:12] And honey.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:54:13] Tied down, honey.

Mindy Caldwell [04:54:14] And then.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:54:14] Then they went into the house. They found handcuffs and ropes. And I mean, this. If you want to know how horrible this is, and I. And I will just like these. These children went through. They'll never be the same again. I can't imagine, but in the, in the, the documents and the charging documents, I'll never forget they released. But they essentially said that he was hog tied backwards, that his, like his hand, one ankle was attached to one wrist with handcuffs and ropes and the other to the other while those wounds were created, lying flat face down on the floor, clearly being also starved and in a dark room. So, wow. I mean that's, that's torture. I don't know how a human being gets past that. And God bless him for escaping. And I can't imagine how a mother allowed that to happen. So, you know, and one thing, you know, I was, I went, I attended the Lori Valo trial. I'll never forget the day that the children's autopsies were shown at the Lori Valley trial. And it was the only time you ever saw a motion on the Lori. That was like sad. And it was clearly sad for herself. But she didn't want to see those photos. She felt that the jury should look at them as she deserved to be able to leave the room. And everyone was appalled and disgusted by her. But I think Ruby was in the house participating in this. That is so sadistic. And so you. I, I can't forgive her. Like, I just can't. It's just so bad.

Mindy Caldwell [04:55:46] And then she journals everything, right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:55:50] All she, as a mom of truth,

Mindy Caldwell [04:55:52] play by plays, everything that happened.

John Dehlin [04:55:54] So, yeah, all the ways the kids were tortured and harassed and forced all

Mindy Caldwell [04:56:00] tied back to their demonic, you know,

John Dehlin [04:56:02] possession and trampoline all day long death marches in the desert, just all the things.

Mindy Caldwell [04:56:11] Yeah, that's horrific.

John Dehlin [04:56:13] I mean, that kid saved his. He's a hero.

Mindy Caldwell [04:56:15] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:56:16] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:56:16] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:56:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:56:17] He saved his life and his sister's life.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:56:19] Was it Jessica Bates? Is that what you said her name was?

Mindy Caldwell [04:56:21] Jessica Bates is the detective.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:56:23] She said there's no doubt. She said there was no doubt. Had are not escaped. They were going to die.

Mindy Caldwell [04:56:31] Yep. Yeah, exactly.

Megan Connor [04:56:32] And this was his second attempt, right. At trying to escape or his second, I guess successful attempt where they, they, you know, were driving around the neighborhood looking for him. And just to think that it's possible that he could have been going up a driveway when Jody was driving by. And that's why it was helpful for me to see the neighborhood, the layout of the neighborhood and how far he actually had to travel before he was able to find help. There were several houses near Jody's that were under construction at the time. And the closest one was across the street, which is where he went first. And there was no answer. And Then he had to go down the road quite a ways in stocking feet in very, very hot weather where the pavement would have been just burning, scorching hot. And I think what breaks my heart more than anything else in the entire thing is that he was asking to go to the police station because he believed he needed to turn himself. Himself in.

John Dehlin [04:57:34] Right.

Megan Connor [04:57:35] Not help. Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:57:37] You just figured jail would be a better place than his setup. Current setup. So he's like, I want to go to jail. Yeah. Just take me to the police, because I'll just. I'm gonna. I gotta go to jail because it's so bad. And my mother's home.

Mindy Caldwell [04:57:47] Yeah. And I think he believed that he was so bad.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:57:50] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:57:50] I think he believed he was a danger. They had convinced him.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:57:53] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:57:53] That he was so bad that he couldn't. He wasn't a safe person. So I think that was the turning yourself in, like, of kind. I'm clearly an evil person, so I must. I need to turn myself in. So take me to the police station.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:58:04] Yeah. I just need to go to jail, because jail. I need to go there. I'm a bad person, but it's going to be better than Jody Hildebrandt's house, so.

Megan Connor [04:58:10] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:58:10] Yeah. Right.

Children Found and Initial Police Response

John Dehlin [04:58:11] Can y' all share what you felt? Just. I want to know if you felt something similar to what I felt when the. The policemen are going through Jody's house with their assault rifles and they stumble on the daughter whose head's been shaved. She's also emaciated, isolated, and just, like, huddled up in almost like a fetal position in that room. And the officer decides to kind of sit down with her while she's just silent. Do you all want to share? Because that. I mean, that's different than the kid stumbling onto the porch with the wounds, but that I felt. Psychological wounds. Wounds.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:58:52] Oh, yeah.

Megan Connor [04:58:53] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:58:53] She was so scared. She couldn't talk. She didn't trust anyone. Like, she couldn't. She didn't know what she was supposed to do. She didn't know right from left. Right. Like, she was just. Like, she was clearly. She couldn't even move or talk. Like, so psychologically damaged. Like, I'm sure she was taught that if you move one thing, like, she didn't know. She didn't know whose side they were on.

Megan Connor [04:59:14] She.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:59:15] She didn't know if there even was a side. She was bad, too.

Mindy Caldwell [04:59:17] You know, if you look at that video closely, you can just see her tiny little chest just. Just pulsing, you know, just, like, breathing heavy. And maybe her heart's Just pounding. Oh, my heart went out to her. But I thought that Sergeant Nick Tobler handled that situation really well. From what we could see on the. On the video. He goes in with her, he sits down, and I love when he tells her, I get it. If you're scared, I would be, too. And just like, sat with her and I. If I recall, she didn't really respond. Or wasn't it like a four hours

Megan Connor [04:59:47] or so that she.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:59:48] It was over four hours.

Megan Connor [04:59:49] They.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [04:59:50] They don't show that, but the charging documents say over four hours before she was even willing to get help and go to the hospital. They had to.

Mindy Caldwell [04:59:56] They brought her in some pizza at one point, I recall. But, yeah, it took a while to kind of coax her out of that, to feel safe.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:00:03] It took her a while to even. It took a while for her to even be coaxed to eat the pizza. I remember they set it there.

Mindy Caldwell [05:00:08] That's right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:00:08] They set it there and walked away. And she wouldn't take it. You know what I mean? Which I'm sure she probably thought was a joke because they would do that to her, too. Like, do you want to dangle food in front of her and then take it away? So she was like, she. She didn't know if she could eat. And then when she was able to eat. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:00:21] I'm seeing in the comments somebody saying that it's common in prepper culture to distrust police.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:00:28] Yes, 100%. That's a great, great point. Yeah. That is really important. That's the other thing, too.

Mindy Caldwell [05:00:34] And that plays into the next part of the story with Kevin going down.

Megan Connor [05:00:38] Yeah. I just want to say I. When I saw the. The little girl being found, it. It made me think of Jesse, and Jesse's just of their head being shaved because maybe their hair made them feel beautiful. And Jody wanted to take that away.

John Dehlin [05:00:54] Yep.

Megan Connor [05:00:54] You know, and just the, you know, the little boy saying that he hadn't seen his sister in over a month and, you know, just the isolation and, you know, that, you know what I'm. It's escaping me. The cage phenomenon. The cage dog phenomenon where, you know, you put a dog in a cage and you open the door and you shock them when they try to leave the cage. Learned helplessness.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:01:21] Yeah.

Megan Connor [05:01:21] You leave the door open, eventually they're not going to leave. And I just. It. They have such an incredibly hard road ahead of them to recover from this.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:01:30] It's.

Megan Connor [05:01:30] It's heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [05:01:32] Check out the Jesse Hildebrandt episode.

Mindy Caldwell [05:01:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:01:35] That I did on Mormon stories. There's Actually, two, but the first one is definitely one of the most important episodes I've ever done. So check that out. If you haven't seen.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:01:43] I concur.

John Dehlin [05:01:43] Yeah, let's. Should we talk about Kevin? So apparently. Is that all right? So Ruby calls Kevin, and from what I remember, Ruby basically says, this is your chance to redeem yourself. He's down, you know, in Utah County, I assume. And she basically says, get down here to St. George, George. Get those kids out of the police system. This is your chance to redeem yourself.

Megan Connor [05:02:13] She says, I can only imagine the lies they're telling the police.

John Dehlin [05:02:17] The children.

Megan Connor [05:02:18] The children.

Mindy Caldwell [05:02:19] The children, yeah.

John Dehlin [05:02:20] Do you. Did you want to.

Mindy Caldwell [05:02:21] Maybe we should just read this.

John Dehlin [05:02:22] This little section.

Mindy Caldwell [05:02:23] So it starts out where. Where Kevin looks down at his phone and. And it shows Ruby's name with the heart next to it. And he's just elated because I think other than. It sounds like very minor kind of procedural conversations, like, they really hadn't talked in. In a long time. Yeah, that's what he said. I was having a conversation with a woman that I loved, with my wife. She was talking to me again. She was in a panic. And she said, I have some explaining to do. And she started to share with me that the two younger children were demonically possessed. I remember asking, how. How do you know? And she said, well, they've confessed to it. And one of the younger kids, he's gotten out. He's gotten to the police. And she said, I can only imagine the lies he's telling the police right now. You need to go pick up our children from the police station. This is your chance to redeem yourself. And so he just took on that challenge, and he headed out to St. George, to Ivan's.

John Dehlin [05:03:18] What do you all want to share about Kevin's behavior in the police station?

Megan Connor [05:03:23] It was very telling. Very telling. First of all, he had no clue what was going on. He hadn't seen his kids or talked to them in over a year. And, you know, he doesn't really want to give up information. He doesn't want to say who called him. He shows up at the police station.

John Dehlin [05:03:39] That was sketchy. Margi, like, audibly gasped when he refused to tell the police who notified him.

Megan Connor [05:03:45] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:03:45] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [05:03:46] Why was that problematic?

Mindy Caldwell [05:03:47] Protecting Ruby? Yeah, he doesn't want Ruby to get in trouble.

Megan Connor [05:03:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:03:50] Put him in accomplice territory. Territory. You're not ignorant.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:03:53] I. That. This was a really. I would have loved to watch this with you and Margi. That was a really interesting moment for me, this whole Thing. Like, everybody's. I just was screaming cult. Like, the way he was acting in this whole thing was like, to me, I believe for the first time, he really didn't know what was going on at all. And yes, you could say he was an accomplice. Like, you know, he's. He said that Ruby didn't send him, but all of his reactions to me were screaming, like, cult member. Like, he's in some cult. Like, right. And he's protecting the cult leader. Ruby, to him, you know, like, is one of these cult leaders, his wife. But yeah, you could say it was accomplice, but I think he doesn't know what's going on. And just throw in the distrust of police, throw in that Ruby's pretty much saying, you're going to redeem yourself. But he doesn't know if he can pull it off, doesn't know what's going on. I mean, I don't know. I felt like his reactions through this whole thing were really interesting and to me, showing that, like, he felt brainwashed to me. But. But. But I don't want to be a Kevin apologist. That's what many people have called me up as you guys share your thoughts.

Kevin's Reaction to the Abuse Revelations

Mindy Caldwell [05:04:58] Yeah, it was bizarre, clearly. And. And I think he truly believed that maybe it was made up. You know, he was like, I. Maybe that. That it all weaves into this, like. Like Joe or Jody's special. And this is just another way that they're going to try to take down Jody and so they're going to frame Jody for abusing my kids. And they asked Kevin if he wanted to see photos of the kids, and he said. He declined. He said no. Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:05:28] Oh, go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [05:05:28] Do you have a thought about that?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:05:29] Well, yeah. Like, this is a moment too, where he said something kind of profound, too. He said, well, he. He didn't want to see it, but he was also. It was like he was coming out of his brainwashing. And at one point he said, says what was in front of my eyes wasn't in my brain as to what was going on. Like, this is literally someone that's just like refusing to see what's really in front of him. Like, this is. This is being brainwashed. Or it's, you know, confirmation bias, too. Like, it's a. It's an example of confirmation bias. Like, I know the facts in my brain, but it is not what I'm seeing. And thus I don't believe it. You know, they always say seeing is believing, but that's not true with confirmation biased or being A cult. Seeing is not believing. Believing is seen. So what he's seen in front of him is not what he's believing. Thus he refuses to see it. And I think denying to see photos of his kids was part of that. Like, it was like he was not believing is seen to him and he wasn't going to break that.

Mindy Caldwell [05:06:24] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:06:24] You know, go ahead.

John Dehlin [05:06:27] What do you think of him saying when. When the police told him that his kids were found emaciated. Emaciated? Him saying, what is emaciated? Is it possible to get a PhD and you've never heard of the word emaciated?

Mindy Caldwell [05:06:39] I've seen this question come up so often because he had to know what the. What the word emaciated mean. I refused to believe he didn't know what that word meant. I think it was just so much was going on and you can see he's kind of leaning forward and his face is just like, what has emaciated me? And I think maybe he was just saying, like. Like, what do you mean? That doesn't make sense to me.

Megan Connor [05:06:58] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:06:58] I think what he's trying to say is, what does it mean to you? What does it mean? Like, you tell. What does that mean to you? You're telling me this, but you're overreacting.

Mindy Caldwell [05:07:09] Yeah, they're like, clearly they're not really in my se. You know.

Megan Connor [05:07:12] And by this point, too, though, Kevin had shown up at the police station thinking that he was just going to collect his kids and leave. He was thinking, the kids are there waiting for me. He just thought that he was going to say, hey, I'm their dad. I'll take. Take them with me. And so instead of that happening, they take him back into a room. He probably has to wait a while for officers to come meet him. You know, this is confusing. He doesn't understand. He's trusted what Ruby has said this whole time. And so he's being confronted with some really awful truths in a very short span of time. That is breaking his shelf, shall we say? Yes. In the Connections Cult.

John Dehlin [05:07:49] Margi. One of the things I wrote, I was asking Margi why she was having that reaction. And she said, in the face of a threat to the family, with police, Kevin's reaction shows how completely unwilling he is to see reality.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:08:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:08:03] That he declines the picture that's painted and that it makes him unfit to be a parent because it's so enabling and he refuses to see reality and he is 0% differentiated from his wife.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:08:17] Wife, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [05:08:17] Yep.

Megan Connor [05:08:19] Yeah. So true. Thanks, Margi.

Mindy Caldwell [05:08:21] Thanks, Margi.

John Dehlin [05:08:22] Like, that's why there's two. Right, Maybe. So that.

Megan Connor [05:08:25] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:08:25] Well, I liked her refusal to see. Like, just denied. Like, he wants to stick to what's in his brain. And, like, human beings will go so far to believe what we believe. Like, we will take it so far. No, I don't want to see photos, like, of his own children because he is desperate to believe in his wife and Jody and in his reality. You know, if seen is believing, he doesn't want to see.

Mindy Caldwell [05:08:49] And Chad was in that headspace as well. So he claims that he didn't find out until the next day. And he is confronted by, or he's told by his employer. He's at work. He looks at things up on the phone. He searches Ruby, Frankie, today, because he hasn't had contact with anybody in a year either. And I think, I think this wording is actually really interesting. He said, I had no idea what, what my employer was talking about. I was. And then he pulls everything up on his phone. I was being fed all of this information, and I thought, this is not real. And I really believed that. He says, this has to be a setup. At this point. I really believed that Jody and my mom were God's chosen people. I really believed that these were the last days. The prison walls would crumble and they would be standing with God. That's what I truly believed.

John Dehlin [05:09:40] That's a story straight out of the Book of Mormon. There's a part of the Book of Mormon where someone's in jail and the walls crumble and God delivers them.

Mindy Caldwell [05:09:47] Yep. Right, Right. I think he's drawing on that story. But I, I was surprised. I. Chad's whole participation in this docu series surprised me, and I was grateful that he shared all of these insights. That's probably hard to share some of that, you know, to admit that that's what his mindset was at the time. But I think it provides a lot of context. But I was surprised that at that point, after being isolated for a year, he was also. Also still just, like, buying into the

John Dehlin [05:10:11] whole story, the theology of it.

Mindy Caldwell [05:10:14] Yes, right, right, right, exactly.

John Dehlin [05:10:17] What about when. When Jody's being interviewed by the police officer and she's like, I really want to tell you everything, but my lawyer says that I can't, otherwise I would. Because I've got nothing to hide.

Mindy Caldwell [05:10:29] I'm a psychologist. I, I, I work with people. I know how people manipulate these situations. She wears. She uses the word manipulate. I'm like, oh, good.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:10:38] Psychologist. While she says, Says she's a psychologist, she Says she knows how people manipulate.

Mindy Caldwell [05:10:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:10:43] What do you think about that, Lauren? Just. I mean, so manipulative, right?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:10:46] So manipulative. So manipulative. Like, this is. This is. This is the ringleader, you know, this is the person who set this whole thing in motion. Like, you can't deny that. And I'm not denying who Ruby is by saying that, but, like, you have to. The question, the ultimate question is, would it have gotten this bad if Jody hadn't come into the picture? And I don't think it would have. Thus, you know, she is who she is the mastermind behind this. But she's so manipulative.

Megan Connor [05:11:16] Yeah. I was really happy to see that the officer didn't fall for it. I love to see Jody doing the manipulation thing. And then the next thing you see is the officer saying she was totally trying to manipulate us.

Mindy Caldwell [05:11:27] Yeah.

Megan Connor [05:11:27] You know, so glad that someone who's seemingly so young spotted that right off the bat. It gives me hope for law enforcement and for the future.

John Dehlin [05:11:36] But again, imagine those kids. You knew the wounds that those kids had psychologically and physically. You've been caught. Now you're in jail. And Ruby, too. It wasn't like, I'm sick. I feel so shameful. It's just like, how about Ruby's just

Mindy Caldwell [05:11:53] kind of the slow blinking.

John Dehlin [05:11:54] Silence. Slow blinking, yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:11:56] So defiant. It was more than just like, I need an attorney. It was just.

Mindy Caldwell [05:12:01] I think it's like, you suckers, I'm smarter than all of you.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:12:05] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [05:12:05] Is that Ruby or Jody?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:12:07] Ruby.

Megan Connor [05:12:07] Ruby.

John Dehlin [05:12:07] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [05:12:08] Just the slow blinking.

Megan Connor [05:12:09] Just like, with her head held high.

Mindy Caldwell [05:12:12] I. I'm so.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:12:13] I am a mom of truth. Don't you know who I am? I am a mom of truth.

Mindy Caldwell [05:12:18] That's how that read.

Megan Connor [05:12:19] How dare you question my parents hunting techniques. I was called by God.

Mindy Caldwell [05:12:25] Yep.

Megan Connor [05:12:26] I think that's really what she believed in that moment. Like, just wait.

John Dehlin [05:12:30] She's a true believer?

Megan Connor [05:12:31] I think.

John Dehlin [05:12:31] So scary.

Megan Connor [05:12:32] Because it. You know, I. I go get this question about Lori all the time, too. You know, does she really still believe this stuff? I think the answer is yes, because the alternative is you have to admit what you've done, and that would psychologically break you. You.

John Dehlin [05:12:49] So unless you have no conscience.

Megan Connor [05:12:52] And I think that's part of it. I think that's a big part of it. I think we saw that demonstrated throughout Ruby's, you know, devolution of behavior. You know, where she got more dogmatic. She started talking in. In harsher rhetoric about the kids, saying more and more often how evil they Were. And by the way, after all of this goes down and we think, okay, they've been caught, now let's see if they show any kind of remorse. And then we have the jail house calls where they're talking about how evil kids can be. I don't think people understand how evil kids can be. You know, so obviously there to me, in my mind, there hasn't been a change in demeanor, in belief, in understanding in either one of these monsters.

John Dehlin [05:13:40] And I, I was going to say I wish Dr. John was here, but Lauren, you probably may know this, but. And I should know this because I study psychology, but you know, the diagnosis for someone who you know has potentially no empathy or no conscience is antisocial personality disorder.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:13:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:13:58] And that's what we loosely call a psychopath or sociopath. My understanding has been that that's kind of a personality trait that shows up from a young age. And you know, you hear about those kids that would pull the limbs off of crickets or riding animals and small animals as a kid and that, that shows up at a young age and falls all the way through. I'm wondering if, if you know whether that can be. If those are personality traits where you lose your empathy or you lose your conscience, if that can be learned over time through certain exposures or certain practice or behaviors. Do you even know?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:14:36] Well, I definitely think it's nature and nurture combined. So you take someone that's susceptible to it, you know what I mean? But, but I think you definitely have to have some. Yeah, you have the nature. I mean, you, you abuse a child, you know, severely and you know, you can, you know, create some antisocial traits. But I think it is a myth that anyone that is a psychopath, as you say. Right. That's not the official diagnosis. The official diagnosis is antisocial, but we'll call it psychopath. Right now the idea that all psychopaths are torturing and killing animals when they're younger I think is a bit of a myth. Or that they're all murderers or that they're all criminals. They're, they're not like it's a, as John points out, it's a personality disorder to be a sociopath. And, and a lot of them just sort of live a life that you wouldn't know if it's your next door neighbor or a politician. But they certainly show signs. And it's. One of them is a lack of empathy and another's manipulating. Another is saying, I didn't do that or that didn't happen, or pity Play. A lot of them are. They're always the victim. They're just really, really good. They can be charismatic, they can be your friend. And so I think I do want to point that out, because time and time again, you know, being a true crime podcaster, every case we cover, people say, oh, as we start to learn and the police are starting to investigate and we have an idea of what's about to happen and who's about to be arrested, if there's missing kids or a missing wife or whatever, you're like, no, this person I know would never do that. No, no, no, no. You don't know this person. You don't know this family. They're great, they're kind, they're wonderful. They're, you know, know story as old as time. People that are. Have antisocial personality disorder and. And, you know, there are people that don't have it that commit crimes, too. But if you're looking to pinpoint a psychopath, they can be your next door neighbor, they can be a teacher, they can be a friend. And it's not like they're out in their backyard killing animals necessarily. They can be anyone that you know, and sometimes they just want to be normal. If you want my opinion, after studying your cousin for five and a half years now, I think she's a psychopath, but I think she's a psychopath that didn't want to be a psychopath. I think she wanted to be a really good mother, and I think that she really tried to fit in, and I think she tried to be a good person, and she loved being a primary chorister and singing and being a mother and, like, wanted to be a perfect Mormon. But I also think she was a psychopath.

John Dehlin [05:17:02] And that's what I'm wondering. Was Ruby always a psychopath? I know.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:17:06] I think she is.

John Dehlin [05:17:07] You think she always was.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:17:08] I think. I think that she's never had empathy. I've never seen. Show me a clip where Ruby has empathy and maybe I'll rethink, but I haven't seen that.

Megan Connor [05:17:16] And to that point as well, you know, throughout this series, what shocked me and also didn't surprise me was looking at the blank stares of Ruby and the despondency that you see when it's not time to film or when she knows this part is going to be cut out.

John Dehlin [05:17:34] Out.

Megan Connor [05:17:34] It's like there's nothing there. And the other thing I wanted to point out is the sadistic element of that sociopath, you know, that they enjoy other people's suffering and that doesn't always have to look like, again, mutilating animals or something like that. Sometimes it's the person who loves jump scaring people because they know it's going to make them cry.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:17:56] You know, to know that your child is being tortured in your house takes an exceptional lack of empathy. As I pointed out. I see less. I just called out Lori Valo, but I see less empathy in Ruby Frankie than I do in Lori Valo. Lori Valo, at least didn't want to see her children's autopsy photos. She's like, nothing to see here. Ruby Frankie is in the house running the concentration camp of her children. I do think that Jody gave her permission. She wanted to be a great mother. She didn't want to be a criminal. She wanted to be the perfect Mormon mother. But if you lack empathy, you can't just go find it. So she did her best. Jody found her and gave her permission to be who she's always been.

Mindy Caldwell [05:18:40] You.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:18:41] You cannot have empathy. In my opinion, this is. This was more than like brainwashing. She was willingly. She was participating in the torture of her own children. That takes an exceptional lack of empathy. And while this crime might not have happened if Jody hadn't found and manipulated this family and manipulated Ruby, she had to have had antisocial traits in order to allow that to happen.

John Dehlin [05:19:10] All right, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [05:19:13] Oh, I agree. I couldn't add to any of that. What are you wanting to.

John Dehlin [05:19:16] Yeah, what else? I want to make sure we get

Mindy Caldwell [05:19:18] the good notes you took, so I think we can skip to.

John Dehlin [05:19:27] So I guess they do the big list of all the. The ways. I mean, the. The diary.

Mindy Caldwell [05:19:31] The diary was terrible. And I don't think we need to recount all of the things in the diary that can be found online, but just.

John Dehlin [05:19:36] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [05:19:37] Just. Unless you guys.

John Dehlin [05:19:38] No, no, it's good. I mean, it's horrible.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:19:39] Ruby's. Yeah, Ruby's abuse. Ruby's record of her children's abuse and how she participated in that.

John Dehlin [05:19:45] Head in the toilet.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:19:46] It.

John Dehlin [05:19:46] And she was covering mouth and nose.

Mindy Caldwell [05:19:49] Yeah, it's. It's really, really awful. And often the theme of saying creating pain is what gets you closer to God or what. What will release the demon from you is if we create pain for you. I think that was the underlying theme.

Megan Connor [05:20:03] So the whole.

John Dehlin [05:20:04] I have the power of God and he must obey.

Mindy Caldwell [05:20:07] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [05:20:08] You know, he needs to be a

Mindy Caldwell [05:20:10] hundred percent obedient with this. With exactness. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:20:14] So it was an impossible obey with exactness was emphasized on my mission.

Megan Connor [05:20:18] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [05:20:20] Yeah.

Kevin and Chad Reunite After the Arrests

Mindy Caldwell [05:20:22] So I Guess we can move to the Chad and Kevin re reunion in person after. After the kids are, you know, discovered.

John Dehlin [05:20:35] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [05:20:35] So at this point, Jodi and Ruby are both in jail. And Chad actually tried to call Ruby with no response. Tried to call his mom with no response. And then he, he said it was a big no, no, but I called my dad and my dad just said, we need to talk. I'm going to be at the house tonight. Please come over. And Chad described seeing Kevin for the first time in over a year and how he was skinny and scrawny and clearly had declined physically. And then Kevin said, chad looks so much older. And he said, he said, I'm hearing. What is this I'm hearing about is what Chad asked Kevin. And Kevin said, I told him about the children being under the influence of evil spirits and the things that they were purportedly doing. And I think this is critical and good self reflection for Chad to admit this. But he said this is the hardest part. I accepted the abuse as something truthful. And that's really hard for me to say because my mom explained it to my dad in a way and my dad explained it to me, to me in a way that it was the right thing to do.

John Dehlin [05:21:39] And again, you know, it's a religious framing.

Mindy Caldwell [05:21:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:21:45] Kevin and Chad were. Undue influence was applied to them because they were under the belief that the children were possessed by evil spirits and that Jody and Ruby were purifying the children from evil spirits. And sometimes they say it takes it. You know, religion can do all sorts of good. And we're not anti religion, we're pro belief in religion when it leads to healthy outcomes. But sometimes it takes religion to have good people do horrible things because it's in the name of God.

Megan Connor [05:22:17] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [05:22:17] Yep. So the neighbors come over that night and they end up talking to. To Kevin and was Chad there as well, I think, and, and kind of the. This decompression or not decompression. What's the word I'm thinking of? Deprogramming starts to begin for Kevin that night. They talked for six hours. Kevin often would have his head with the neighbors. Had his head in his hands, just sobbing. And Kevin says, all of a sudden two plus two equal four. And everything made sense. So he had some sort of a realization that evening after talking to the neighbors.

John Dehlin [05:22:52] He says, everything has been a lie.

Mindy Caldwell [05:22:54] Everything has been a lie. He said, chad, we've been lied to this whole time. No child is possessed. No kid or child has done the things that your mom has said they have Done. Dad was in tears, sobbing on Chad's shoulder. And Chad describes. I remember closing my eyes and all the blood rushing to my head, and I realized I couldn't defend her anymore. And I don't know if he's probably talking about Ruby, but maybe Jody as well. Little by little, Kevin says, I was accepting the idea that Ruby and Jody had done something awful. So they're beginning the process of deprogramming those beliefs. So.

John Dehlin [05:23:33] And yeah. And then it gets to the point where Kevin accepts that Jody and Ruby had done something awful. And when he's asked, do you feel guilty? He says, as you mentioned, Lauren, I think previously, I was the last line of defenses for these. I was the last line of defense for these children. Children. And I packed my bags and walked away. Is that the right quote?

Mindy Caldwell [05:23:52] Yep, exactly.

John Dehlin [05:23:53] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [05:23:54] You got it.

John Dehlin [05:23:55] Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:23:58] I mean, I like that that comes from him, I think. I guess I want to point out, too, as upset as we all are, I. I do see him taking. They pushed him at the end, and he took some responsibility, you know, so a lot of people say he just deflects all responsibility. I saw him taking some responsibility in this. That was the moment. Yeah, I walked away. I walked away. I was their last line of defense, and I walked away. He knows that he did that.

Mindy Caldwell [05:24:21] But I. I think just based on comments that I read online, I think Kevin just didn't do himself a lot of favors. Just in those last, like, three minutes of the documentary.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:24:32] Interesting.

Mindy Caldwell [05:24:32] Are we at that point where we should talk about that? Do you have anything else to add? So this is kind of the conclusion here. And Chad is asked by the interviewer, do you mind? Chad has asked, do you miss her? And. And Chad says, I miss a mother figure. I miss how she was when I was very young. I don't think she should have any contact with the younger kids until they're at least 18 years old. But that doesn't mean that I didn't have any love for her. Sherry said, I will never talk to her again. Whether she's the most apologetic person in the world, that doesn't change anything for me. And this part broke my heart. She said, I have one mom and one childhood. And that was my. And then Kevin is asked, do you still love her? And he replies, definitely, I've always loved her. And the interviewer says, even though she abused the kids, you still love her. And he said, oh, yeah. The actions that she did are atrocious, but I still feel longing. I don't know something about that word. Longing bothered me. I struggled with that. He said, I miss her. All of the delivery rooms, all of the moments holding our children. It's easy for the world to hate that woman. So many people want me to join in that chorus. I cannot turn off all those other memories. And that's when he gets into this conclusion where he talks about it being a story of love and hope and family. And I struggled with that. I was like, I would not describe this story as a story of love and hope and family. And then he said, ultimately faith. And I think referring to their drawing on their faith to get through this, to get through this aftermath of what happened with Ruby and Jody and, and Kevin and all the kids. But I think, you know, I think timing is interesting. When was the documentary filmed? It's been a few months since they probably wrapped filming. And perhaps I think that Kevin gave us a little bit more insight into what he's currently feeling in those recent interviews. Like there was a People, People magazine video and then the, the Good Morning America. And it seemed to me that he had made progress from the time that the, that the documentary stopped filming. He didn't seem quite as like enamored with Ruby. In fact, he mentioned that he had requested that she not write him anymore. And so maybe, maybe Kevin has come along. But. Yeah, and I, I can feel us having a 20 plus year partnership and six kids. There's going to be feelings, but it was just a little bit, just felt a little bit too much like how he described earlier about just like hustling for her love and her devotion and stuff. That's how it felt to me.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:27:05] I agree, I completely agree with you. This is not actually a story about family and hope and faith at all. In fact, this is a family, this is a story of a family being ripped apart, of bad parenting, of beliefs you shouldn't have had. You know, if it comes to faith. And I respect that hope is a part of your process. You know, I, I respect that they have hope still. That's good. But this is, I mean, those poor victims.

Mindy Caldwell [05:27:32] I agree.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:27:32] I, I don't, I don't, you know, they will never be the same again. This is about, this is about. To me, this is a story about cults, extreme beliefs, psychopaths, and how manipulation and control, manipulation, coercive control, abusive parenting and. Yeah, I mean, what else?

Mindy Caldwell [05:27:54] Yeah, the harms of family vlogging.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:27:56] Harms of family vlogging. I don't think there are many people that would have seen that documentary or this crime as a story of faith. Hope and family. But I, I think this is clearly why they did, probably did the documentary was Kevin's story. And I'm gonna speculate that's what he wanted it to be about.

Mindy Caldwell [05:28:12] Right.

Megan Connor [05:28:14] I think throughout the entire documentary, what I see in Kevin is deep insecurity and deep fear and guilt.

Mindy Caldwell [05:28:24] And he admits that. Admits that he's insecure.

Megan Connor [05:28:26] Yeah, yeah, he does. And I, I, But I think when we come back around to it, at the very end, after everything that he's been through and everything that he's seen the children have gone through, it bothered me too, Mindy, for him to say that he still loves her, that he longs for her. Yeah, that I, I hope that he's getting past that. And I know it, I know it takes time. I know it takes therapy. I know it takes a lot of really hard work to let go of those beliefs. But I guess that's what I, what it comes down to is that almost every bad decision that was made in this series of horrific events was based in fear and guilt and shame, shame and insecurity. And I think that is the root cause of a lot of suffering and a lot of harm. And it's a, you know, not to, to come back and try to pin everything in this case on the church or the belief system. But, you know, growing up as an LDS kid, we're not taught to self validate. We're taught to seek external validation. We're taught to ask our bishop for worthiness, our stake president for worthiness. We have to carry a card that says that we're good enough to go into the house of the Lord. And when you don't learn to self validate to, you know, to love yourself enough, you look for that external validation everywhere. And that's what I saw in Kevin looking for Ruby over and over and over again. Even after he, she harmed the children, even after he witnessed hours and hours of abusive parenting on the other side of that camera, he still was longing for her. He was still reaching for her and trying to be worthy of her, when all along she was the one who was the lesser partner. The less able to feel love and compassion and empathy. The less able parent, the less caring. And I, it broke my heart seeing it in Sherry's book where she describes Kevin turning into a shell of his former self. You know, really just devolving into a, I forget exactly the term that she used. But, but he was, you know, he was there, but he wasn't there.

Mindy Caldwell [05:30:40] Yeah.

Megan Connor [05:30:40] You know, and I, I think that's it's so unfortunate and sad, you know, that someone can desire the love of another person so much that they lose themselves so much.

Mindy Caldwell [05:30:55] Yes.

Megan Connor [05:30:55] That then they can't even show up for the children in their lives. And I unfortunately don't think that this is an isolated incident. I think it's common for partners to lose themselves in a relationship to the point where they. They stop being able to show up as their authentic self and as the best parent for their kids. And that's why I'm always an advocate of, you know, putting your own oxygen mask. Mask on first. You know, take care of yourself, love yourself, do the things that are the most loving things for yourself, and then you can show up as the best version of yourself for the other people who need you. And. And not relying so much on other people to make you feel good about yourself. But. But having that deep knowing inside of you.

John Dehlin [05:31:42] We. We grabbed a clip that is a tiny bit. It. It's kind of supportive of what we're. We're all trying to say here. But it's basically Kevin trying to explain how this happened. Is it okay if we play that clip really quick? All right, let's just hear Kevin talking about how this happened. I was also required to move out

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:32:03] of the house and never contact my siblings.

John Dehlin [05:32:06] You know, never, never go back home. Let me make sure. Is that. Actually, I think it's this one. View of the real story.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:32:20] But even.

John Dehlin [05:32:21] Even the documentary can only cover so much in three episodes there. And there's. There's much more that. That I hope to share in the future. And a lot of people understand about this experience.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [05:32:36] There's a lot of people will look

Video Clip 3 [05:32:38] at me and say, how could he ever do that? I would never do that. But, you know, for those who respectfully ask me about that and say, you know, how could you? My response to that is, well, who do you love more than anybody?

Video Clip 3 [05:32:56] And sometimes it's a child, sometimes it's

Video Clip 3 [05:32:59] a spouse, they say. And I say, well, what would happen if that individual that you love more than anybody started to go a different way and was inviting you and encouraging you?

Video Clip 3 [05:33:12] Would.

Video Clip 3 [05:33:12] Would you just easily be able to let them go? Easily be able to say, you're out of my life.

Video Clip 3 [05:33:17] Goodbye.

Video Clip 3 [05:33:19] And that really gets people thinking. And so, you know, I want people to really think about that. Another thing that I hope people think about after watching this is the role

Video Clip 3 [05:33:29] that social media and the Internet plays

John Dehlin [05:33:31] in our lives today. Really quickly, I just want to. I want to come back to that. What did y' all have Any reactions to that idea that, like, hey, you love someone so much. This is kind of what's going to happen if you really, really love someone.

Megan Connor [05:33:45] I just think there were so many opportunities along the way for it to have gone a different way. And I think Kevin kept choosing over and over to do whatever it took to keep Ruby. And so his priorities were. Were clear. It was with Ruby. And he even said it in the documentary, he was 1000% supportive of Ruby and that he valued that over the kids. And I think he says it in a. In an admission that he went the wrong way. But again, I look at all of the points at which he could have said more, done more, not left the house, you know, not packed up and abandoned the kids. Kids and, and ultimately said, look, you know, Jody might be great, but I'm not leaving my family, you know.

Mindy Caldwell [05:34:32] Yeah.

Megan Connor [05:34:33] And if she thinks that I'm in distortion because I refuse to listen to what she says, that's fine. I'm staying. You know, again, hindsight is 20 20. We can armchair quarterback. You know, as an, as an abuse survivor, I understand abused mentality, and I get how difficult it is to make good choices when you're in that. That space. I just hope that the attention that we're bringing to this, I hope that it makes people stop and pause and think before continuing to go down a road too far.

John Dehlin [05:35:05] Did you have a response to that clip, Lauren?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:35:10] It was. I don't know if I have a response necessarily. It was interesting to see, as you point out, like, what else does. You have to stay. I. I do agree with him. The documentaries can only show so much that's, you know, people wanted to describe everything that was in Sherry's book. It can't. It's three episodes, maybe. As a. As a former TV reporter, I do understand that people are like, I didn't mention this. It didn't mention this. Like, I can never share as much as, you know, a newspaper article. So I think there's probably a lot that they cut. I would be curious to see what was on the, you know, cutting room floor. And I, you know, it's. It is disappointing that he was so desperate to be loved that he let his kids be abused. That's ultimately what he's just said there, so that's. It's hard to swallow.

Mindy Caldwell [05:35:55] Yeah. Mindy, I don't have a lot more to add than what you two have both said, but, I mean, I think. I think Kevin failed those kids.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:36:05] Yeah, he did.

Mindy Caldwell [05:36:06] And he has a lot of work to do. I Think to.

John Dehlin [05:36:09] To.

Mindy Caldwell [05:36:10] To make up for that. And it sounds like he's on that track, but there's just no denying. I can't imagine any scenario so easy to put ourselves in that position and say, I wouldn't do this or I wouldn't do. I would do that. But I just cannot imagine any scenario where I would. Where I would be okay with that. So it's just. It's so foreign to me, and it's hard for me to have empathy about that. But that said, I think he clearly, hopefully has learned in his learning lessons and just moving forward can be a better dad and a better person. And I love what you talked about me again, about just figuring out how to find your own value in yourself and not always seek external validation from people. And some people may see that as selfish, taking care of yourself first before you take care of others. But I think it's imperative live as a full functioning human to make sure that you are okay with yourself and that you're good with yourself despite whatever happens externally, that you're good with you. And then you can be the healthiest version and you can be the best parent, the best friend. You know, perhaps Kevin will be in a romantic relationship in the future. He has said that they are in the process of divorce, correct?

Megan Connor [05:37:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:37:27] So he. He's. He's filed for divorce.

Mindy Caldwell [05:37:30] Oh, okay. Okay. So, yeah, that's. That's all I really have to say about that.

John Dehlin [05:37:38] Yeah. Margi's texting me and she said Kevin is not doing himself any favors by trying to make explanations like that. That whole. Who hasn't loved someone so much that they would.

Mindy Caldwell [05:37:50] Yeah, that kind of gave me the echo little bit.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:37:54] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [05:37:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:37:55] And then she said, that was so hurtful to Chad. And then she says, did you see Chad? That the kids deserve better.

Mindy Caldwell [05:38:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:38:05] Well, I don't know if that's love necessarily either. Have you ever loved someone so much that you do anything? That's, that's, that's not love. That's. That takes love.

Mindy Caldwell [05:38:12] For the rest of us who have

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:38:13] had desperation for approval and acceptance.

John Dehlin [05:38:16] Insecurity.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:38:17] Insecurity. Because actually, if you really loved yourself, you wouldn't. Wouldn't do anything for love. She's actually teaching his son next to him that, like, whatever it takes, if you have self worth, you don't do anything for love. You know, you. You find someone that loves you back for just who you are, and you don't sacrifice other people you love to get the acceptance you're desperate for.

Megan Connor [05:38:44] Exactly.

Reflecting on Kevin's Role in the Documentary

John Dehlin [05:38:46] I'm noticing that at the end of this documentary, we're talking about Kevin. Kevin, and I'm thinking about that.

Megan Connor [05:38:50] We.

John Dehlin [05:38:51] We did an episode. We mentioned that Sherry really didn't appear a lot in this and that that was probably tied to the fact that she had just released her book and that that's really her story. Is it fair to think of this documentary as Kevin's story?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:39:07] I think that's fair. I think that's what it was mostly.

John Dehlin [05:39:09] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:39:10] I think that this is a bit of Kevin's project. Yeah. And that, you know, Sherry had a voice in it, as did all of the adult children. But. But this is. I mean, yeah, Kevin would ultimately probably own this footage, too, that he released.

Mindy Caldwell [05:39:23] Yeah.

Megan Connor [05:39:23] I think I. I remember Sherry doing some publicity for her book, saying that she was happy for. For her dad's opportunity to tell some of his own story. You know, that's right. She was referring to this documentary. And. And while I do. I do think it. I do think that this is Kevin Evan's side of the story, but not to leave Ruby out of it, you know, I. I hope that she doesn't get parole. You know, I hope she has to serve her entire sentence. I don't know that 30 years is enough, to be honest with you. When I think about the. The way that the children were tortured and. And the horror that they had to endure and the huge long road they have ahead of them for finding any hope of healing or semblance of a happy life, you know, I think if you take someone's childhood, it deserves a very severe punishment. And when I heard four to 30 years, I think I was pretty devastated about that.

Mindy Caldwell [05:40:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:40:22] So I. You know, we've. We've gone five hours and 40 minutes, which is kind of.

Megan Connor [05:40:28] My prediction was correct.

John Dehlin [05:40:32] I'm gonna just speed read a couple comments. Comments, if it's okay. Joan says Kevin didn't have an identity outside of Ruby. Louise says, I think that this documentary was Kevin's attempt at rebuilding his reputation. I think that's an interesting interpretation. I don't know about this comment. Psychopomp says what Kevin says makes a lot of sense. This perfect, strange storm of factors could happen to anyone. I don't know about that.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:41:04] But, I mean, I do want to

Megan Connor [05:41:06] point out, you know, none of us are immune from the effects of manipulation and control. All of us are susceptible to it on some level. And that's why what we're doing here is so important, because when you know, the tactics and the techniques of manipulators, then you're less likely to fall victim to it. But I think it's interesting to note that people who grew up in really happy, securely attached families sometimes can be even more susceptible to manipulation because they've never seen it, they've never seen it work before. So I think it's important for all of us to learn about it.

John Dehlin [05:41:42] Thank you. This is fun. Or interesting. Stephanie Barrett writes, I was just on a cruise February 24th to February 28th. And who else was on that cruise? Chad. Frankie. That was interesting to have him on there also. I mean, good for Chad, right? He deserves some fun.

Mindy Caldwell [05:42:01] And Chad posts often. He's got a cute girlfriend and he's trying to build his real estate profession. That's what he's doing right now.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:42:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [05:42:10] Good friend.

Mindy Caldwell [05:42:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:42:11] Lynette writes, Kevin seems to be all about the money. He's suing people. His legislation is about money. Do we know anything about Kevin suing people?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:42:21] Well, I do know that I don't know anything recent, but I do know that he was setting to sue Jody Hildebrand and or Pam Botcher because he wants a piece of the house, of Jody's house. But I, I feel that's very fair and I hope he wins because the victims deserve restitution for what's happened. And I do believe that R and E are going to need help. And jna, all of the children. Well, I shouldn't. All of them.

Megan Connor [05:42:51] All six. Sorry.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:42:53] And even possibly Kevin for the rest of their lives. So I, I think it's fair that they get some restitution, especially from Jody Hildebrand as she has a five million dollar home. But I don't know about anything else.

John Dehlin [05:43:04] Yeah, that makes sense.

Megan Connor [05:43:05] And there are other people who are suing Jody and connections as we've covered, you know, before. So there's likely going to be a lot of lawsuits to be settled in the near future.

John Dehlin [05:43:17] Donna says she was frustrated that in the documentary there's no mention about how Jody was recommended as a therapist by the Mormon Church. That's a good point. Lisa writes, I kind of hated this documentary because I feel it's just Kevin defending himself and in her words, sounding stupid, claiming he didn't know anything makes me sick and so mad he's a coward. I didn't feel that way. I felt Kevin came off in more intelligent than I thought. He was more humble and more reflective and insightful about his own weaknesses and more vulnerable than I. So to me, Kevin came off better. To her, he came off worse.

Mindy Caldwell [05:44:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:44:04] Yeah.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:44:04] Depends on what everybody started with when

Megan Connor [05:44:06] it came to him. Right. So true.

John Dehlin [05:44:08] Yeah. Somebody's recommending Coven of the Apocalypse is the name of our band. Of the. Can I be in a coven? Can a guy be in a coven? Or is that only women? Somebody tell me we.

Megan Connor [05:44:21] We are inclusive here, John.

John Dehlin [05:44:23] Thanks to Susie. Lynette wanted to remind us that they read Chad his Miranda rights. I didn't know that.

Megan Connor [05:44:31] Kevin.

Mindy Caldwell [05:44:32] They read Kevin is Miranda rights at the police station.

John Dehlin [05:44:34] Okay. She's probably referring to Kevin read Kevin his Miranda rights. Okay. Marta says strict obedience brings blessings from God, was taught to her growing up as a Griffiths. It was confirmed to her in the temple. So she.

Mindy Caldwell [05:44:51] She's the relative she commented last time.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:44:53] Okay. She's one of Ruby's.

Megan Connor [05:44:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:44:55] She keeps saying that the Griffin. She keeps alleging that the Griffiths home was problematic. And I.

Megan Connor [05:45:03] She's not the only one.

Mindy Caldwell [05:45:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:45:05] I wish you would email me and let me know what. What she means by that. Couple other comments I got to share because people gave super chats and we want to thank them for that. Luis writes, ruby's parents created the monster. Jody released it. Kristen writes, I love hidden true crime because they get to the why. Lauren, how about that little hidden true crime?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:45:29] Love the why. The why. Thank you. Yeah. Why done it. We're not. We see. We're not a whodunit channel or why done it. So thank you.

John Dehlin [05:45:35] I love it. Mickel RMB says my patriarchal blessing says I will be instrumental in ushering in the second coming of Jesus. I wonder what theirs say that's speaking to the. The fact that when people feel like they're special and are going to usher in the, you know, coming of Jesus, they come by it often. Honestly.

Megan Connor [05:45:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:45:58] Thank you Share PDX for that super chat. Chelsea Gervon writes to me, these adults are all playing make believe, and I think you could argue that that's kind of what Lori and Chad were doing. Kind of like spiritual fantasy, spiritual LARP, apocalyptic LARPing, make believe, but with a deadly twist. That's interesting. Let's see. Not prepped at all for the band name. How about not prepped at all?

Megan Connor [05:46:38] We are not, not ready for the event.

John Dehlin [05:46:39] What's the reference there?

Mindy Caldwell [05:46:41] It's Jody's book.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:46:42] So Jody's. Jody Hildebrand's book has the funniest title and it's called you are not not enough. And we think that's so funny that she used this double. Like she could have just said, you are enough. You are enough. So she's like, well, that's taken. I'M going to be. You are not. Not enough. I mean, it's just such a funny. There's a lot of humor behind.

Mindy Caldwell [05:47:02] We were at Snow Basin or at Snowbird for the. The. The thing in October. The festival. What is it called? Anyway, we. We ran across a sweatshirt that said you. I am not. Not drunk. I remember sending you a picture. I'm like, look at the. Look at this sweatshirt.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:47:22] It just.

Megan Connor [05:47:22] It just.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:47:23] Funny giggle whenever I hear Jody Hildebrand's book tell you are not. Not enough because it's a stupid title. Ian, Sarah, Just to. To play on that, you know, that we are not. Not prepped. We are.

John Dehlin [05:47:35] Thank y' all for helping me understand that. My. My basketball buddy, Brett Hutchings asked, do you guys think that Kevin could have been worried that Jody would use the information she had on him to threaten his BYU employment and control him, just like she did with Adam, Paul Steed and his.

Mindy Caldwell [05:47:53] I wouldn't put it past her.

Megan Connor [05:47:54] Yeah, sure. Absolutely.

Mindy Caldwell [05:47:56] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [05:47:56] I mean, that's his livelihood by. You would fire someone for ecclesiastical reasons. So that's an attempt to kind of maybe explain why Kevin behaved the way that he behaved. Almost done. K. Louise says, see something, say something. This is for, you know, to report abuse. See something, say something. This is why these discussions are important. Important red flags. These people. Twisted religion. The church should shut it down. So there's a call for the church to find out ways to shut this down so it doesn't keep repeating. Lynette Butler says maybe at the end, could you each say whether you think this documentary will affect how much time Ruby and. Or Jody actually serve?

Sentencing, Publicity, and Lasting Impact

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:48:44] I think all of the publicity that this case is seeing will make it so that she has a longer sentence.

John Dehlin [05:48:53] Who?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:48:54] Ruby.

John Dehlin [05:48:54] Ruby.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:48:55] Ruby and Jody. Both of them. I. I think that St. George and the Utah justice system knows that all eyes are on them, and if they're lenient. If they're lenient, it's gonna. Yeah. I. So I don't know if it was this particular documentary. I would say, as a whole, the publicity that this. The publicity that this case has garnered is going to probably affect the sentencing, whether people want to admit that or not. I think for both of them, I do think that Jody is being painted as. You know, I said it myself, the ringleader. So maybe there might be more lenience on Ruby. But I think that this documentary and the charging docks will certainly show the worst of it.

Mindy Caldwell [05:49:46] I agree.

Megan Connor [05:49:47] Yeah, I do, too. I. I hope that's the outcome. You know, it's the reason why we're talking about this raising awareness and getting people to realize, you know, how horrific all of this was. And the idea that, that they just need to be there for as long as possible.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:50:04] I will say that when, when things come from parole boards, a lot of what matters is, are like letters of recommend and letters with character. And I would say that Ruby probably has a better chance of that, especially if her, you know, if. Well, let's say this, there could go two ways. If, if some of her children write let. And I'm completely. I have no clue. This is me just using this as an example. Chad writes and says she was a great mom. But then you have a victim, right, and say, I don't want her out. Like that's going to play a part in the parole board in the process. So I think a lot of it I want to point out will also. It'll also matter what her victim state and what they want. And I think they're the gonna listen. The parole board.

Megan Connor [05:50:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:50:50] This is just hearsay, but Sacred Llama writes, having worked with Kevin, don't buy the beaten puppy dog act. He's very smart and knows what he's doing. He's manipulative, but he always thought he was the smartest guy in the room. Have you all heard that about Kevin?

Megan Connor [05:51:08] Nope. Doesn't mean it's not true.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:51:11] But his, his rate, the professor ratings were really interesting. We read them when the case first broke. I think those are probably down now, but a lot of students complaining that he knew all but that. They also mentioned that he felt that Jody Hildebrandt, you know, had all the answers to his rate. The professor reviews were quite telling when, when, at the point where Ruby was arrested. So, yeah, that. Yeah, he kind of had all the answers.

Mindy Caldwell [05:51:44] I read a Reddit post from a former student of his who, who said of all of the their professors at byu, he injected like religious themes more than any other professor and that he. This student's interpretation was that he favored students that kind of kissed up to him a little bit. And this student refused to do that and didn't have a. Didn't have a real fond review of Kevin.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:52:09] He liked obedience. So, yeah, that would go with what the reviews I read too.

Megan Connor [05:52:12] Yeah. Well, as long as we're on the subject, I'll go ahead and mention that about 2/3 of the way through the second episode, I started to feel like Kevin's. I don't know any other way to say it than to say that it started to sound a little scripted and it Started to look a little performative just from the standpoint of he always seemed to pause at the right times. He seemed to be just emotional enough at the right times. And you know, I made a note of it.

John Dehlin [05:52:46] It.

Megan Connor [05:52:46] I didn't want to make a big deal of it, but since we're on the subject of maybe a different, different point of view, I just want to say that. And then immediately after I wrote that note in there, I said maybe it's just because I've been up since 3:30 this morning and maybe it's late at night, but I just started to see it in that way the first time that I went through it. Now the second time it didn't seem that way as much to me. But maybe, you know, who knows, different circumstances. So just in case anyone else out there was able to see that or, or had that opinion as well.

John Dehlin [05:53:18] Thank you. Kristen Paul makes an interesting point. She says Alyssa Grenfell's recent video on Mormon influencers and ad revenue is an interesting insight on all this. Thanks for that. Super chat, Kristen. Did y' all see that?

Mindy Caldwell [05:53:31] No, I haven't seen that yet.

John Dehlin [05:53:32] It's basically saying the Mormon Church is so wanting to dominate all YouTube ads relative to Mormonism that they pay top dollar to dominate Mormon themed ads, which then spikes up the revenue that Mormon YouTubers get paid. And in that sense, and in that sense they're funding, partly you, Lauren, ironically, Mormon paid ads. Mormon Church paid ads are funding Mormon stories. But she's trying to say that a lot of this Mormon mother influencer stuff is driven ironically by the Mormon Church buying YouTube ads.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:54:11] Interesting.

John Dehlin [05:54:11] To dominate the term Mormon. So that's interesting. Thanks, C. Charles, also for your super chat. We're almost done. Just a few more coming in. Badger and Fox says, it occurs to me that for girls, women bullying tends to be social exclusion and. Or gossiping. And bullies are often trying to find power.

Mindy Caldwell [05:54:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:54:32] Or control.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:54:33] Yeah, I think she was just piggybacking on what I brought up about, you know, when there's maybe there's a power dynamic. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. That, you know, a lot of, I think women in history have probably tried to find power through, you know, bully, bullying or gossiping or talking. Because there is. No, there's. We don't have, you know, brute strength maybe like the aperture, you know, but that's how we can exert power.

John Dehlin [05:55:00] Yeah. Sarah o' Connor writes, ruby is a victim of sexual coercion by a woman being hard, mean. I think assaulted, raped, sexually abused by someone of the same sex does not change her sexuality. Speculating about Ruby being gay implies she was indulging, not a victim.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:55:22] I'm speculating about her being gay because Sherry speculated about it in her book and I think it's.

Mindy Caldwell [05:55:27] And she mentioned it on the document.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:55:28] She mentioned the docu series. So I. I feel okay speculating on it. Not for good or for bad. Just wondering, you know, maybe she's bi, maybe she's straight. It doesn't change what she did or what Jody did to her.

Megan Connor [05:55:45] Right.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:55:45] Gay or straight.

Megan Connor [05:55:46] And there's also the idea that. That sociopathic people, you know, don't tend to form attachments and they tend to view relationships as transactional and correct. So it's possible that any sexual engagement on her part is transactional.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:56:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:56:02] Yeah. Okay. A couple more. This is something I noticed. Brett Hutchings writes, am I the only one that found it ironic when Ruby was moving into the new home and she was standing in front of the front door and she said, come on in. This is where my. The kids and grandkids are going to. Going to come visit us.

Megan Connor [05:56:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:56:24] That was sad.

Megan Connor [05:56:24] The grandma house.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:56:25] I think that's why they. They put it in there, actually, because of the. Yeah, yeah. That is not what happened.

John Dehlin [05:56:32] Yeah. Sally writes, my hope is that Kevin has been humbled. He now has the children back, hopefully doubles down on taking constructive, healthy criticism, and is the best parent he ever was. It's a bit concerning. So that's a little bit about her hopes for Kevin. Lisa writes, excellent analysis. You four are the dream team.

Megan Connor [05:56:56] Hey, not just the band. The dream team.

John Dehlin [05:56:59] That could be a band name. Dream team. Really quickly, Troublemaker Baker is saying, I'm betting Pam Botchler has destroyed the pen papers. Anyone have any insight on the pen papers?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:57:12] Yeah, no, I think.

John Dehlin [05:57:14] And tell people what they are.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:57:15] You know what? And I want to say to troublemaker Baker, who actually is a wonderful mod from Hidden True Crime, thank you for being here, Baker. But so we know. We know that the pen papers are a big deal. Kevin. Frankie told us much in his police interview. Get the pen papers. You. Everything.

Mindy Caldwell [05:57:34] They're different than the journal.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:57:35] Different than the journal.

John Dehlin [05:57:36] Jody's prophecies.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:57:37] Jody's prophecies. But Pam wrote in it. And, and, And Kevin was like Charles the Lion. Yeah, Charles. And Kevin was. Viewers are like, what are you. Yeah, yeah. Charles the lion is the idea that

John Dehlin [05:57:49] Jody thought she was a prophet.

Mindy Caldwell [05:57:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:57:51] And that she was receiving revelations from God and Pam would write them down in the pen papers. Is that it?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:57:56] Well, I think there was a lot of people writing stuff in the pen papers, but it was Jody's prophecies. And Kevin made it very clear in his police interview. Get the pen papers. If you have the pen papers, please, you'll know everything. You got to get the pen papers. I bet Pam Botcher has has them. So you go back and you have all of the body cam footage of the search of Jody Hildebrandt's house after the arrest. And you watch a police officer, it's like hours into the footage and you watch him open something in the walk in closet, take out a leather bound book, which is what Kevin said they were in that they purchased the leather bound book for the pen papers. He and Ruby gave it as a gift to Jody. And you're like, that looks like what he explained. And you can pause it and you can see that the top says pen paper.

Mindy Caldwell [05:58:34] So.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:58:34] And you're like, there they are, there they are. And what does the police officer do? He puts it back in and he shuts the drawer and he moves on. The police have never stated that they have the pen papers. I'm probably, I, I assume that that is what Pam Botcher went in and she got them. I hope she's destroyed them. If she's kept them, it probably means that she's still a believer and she's holding on to them. And I don't think that they could get a search warrant for her house. I don't think the police have the pen papers. I think the pen papers have ever been destroy. They're hanging out with Pam. I don't know where they are, but I don't think the police took him that day. But luckily they found the journal.

Mindy Caldwell [05:59:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [05:59:13] Any other thoughts about the pen papers?

Megan Connor [05:59:15] So frustrating to just watch like they were right then. No.

Mindy Caldwell [05:59:23] No.

John Dehlin [05:59:25] Stizzy. Ella asks why the older sisters didn't save the younger kids.

Megan Connor [05:59:33] They weren't with the middle girls.

John Dehlin [05:59:35] Yeah, the two, two older sisters.

Megan Connor [05:59:37] The older sisters, from what we understand, were being left alone in the Springville house while the two younger kids were taken down to Ivan's.

Mindy Caldwell [05:59:45] I do think what happened was at Ivan's at some point, but they have

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:59:49] been down to Jody. Jody's house is so big. And R says actually, and you hear that in the documentary, that he hasn't even seen E for a long time. Like R hasn't seen E. And so

Mindy Caldwell [05:59:58] he said he hadn't seen her in a month.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [05:59:59] In a month. So they think they can kept all the kids isolated and separated.

John Dehlin [06:00:03] Okay.

Megan Connor [06:00:04] So I don't think any of the kids who are in the house wouldn't have known who else was in the house because they were all being kept separately.

John Dehlin [06:00:11] And so two mid sisters didn't see the harm being done to the youngest two.

Megan Connor [06:00:16] I think the day that they were arrested, the two older girls were in Springville. Is that right?

Mindy Caldwell [06:00:23] They were found at Pam's house.

John Dehlin [06:00:24] Pam Botcher's house

Mindy Caldwell [06:00:27] or somewhere around there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [06:00:30] C. Charles says thanks for getting the band. Thanks for gathering the band for this review. You're the best. We have another recommended name, Apostates of Glory.

Mindy Caldwell [06:00:42] I love it.

John Dehlin [06:00:44] Gerardo's saying he's heard about. He's heard negative things from former students of Kevin as well. Thank you, Gerardo. Sincerely Angie says, I think he played the quote, I wasn't there for the worst part, so I'm innocent card. That's what sincerely Angie is saying about Kevin. And then thank you, Savannah. And literally thank you, Biking Bandit. And we're done. All right. We're not taking any more super chats. You can still send them to us, but we're done. Final words, Mindy.

Final Reflections and Lessons About Cults

Mindy Caldwell [06:01:22] My final words are read Sheri's book if you haven't already. They did not mention Sherry's book in the documentary. And it is Sherry's birthday today. It's her 22nd birthday today.

John Dehlin [06:01:34] What a coincidence.

Mindy Caldwell [06:01:35] So happy birthday to Sherry, Frankie, and we here at Mormon Stories wish you a very happy birthday and hope that you have a fantastic year. Interesting docu series. I'm glad we've talked about it and I look forward to more information. I feel like it was. It was definitely skewed towards a certain angle and I think you mentioned that earlier. Angles. I think it was interesting. I think we learned a lot and it will just be fascinating to see what comes of it. And I just primarily I wish every single one of those Frankie children the best in their healing and their growth journey following what they've been through, through

John Dehlin [06:02:19] Megan.

Megan Connor [06:02:21] You know, I, I don't think I have much more to say about the documentary or, or the crimes. I, I concur. Go buy Sher's book and go read it. I guess what I want to say is if anybody out there has experienced anything close to what we've been talking about today, you didn't deserve it. It's not your fault. And it is possible to heal and move on and have a happy life.

John Dehlin [06:02:46] And you do some coaching for people who have experienced abuse.

Megan Connor [06:02:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [06:02:52] Yeah.

Megan Connor [06:02:52] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [06:02:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [06:02:53] Do you want to tell your website or whatever?

Megan Connor [06:02:55] Yeah, my website is third-verse.com and all my coaching information is there as well as my E course about understanding and defending against manipulation and control.

John Dehlin [06:03:05] And then you have a YouTube channel.

Megan Connor [06:03:07] Yes. Called Midlife Revolution. It's at third underscore verse but most people find me to by searching Megan Connor.

John Dehlin [06:03:13] Okay, thank you Megan. Thanks for coming.

Megan Connor [06:03:16] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [06:03:17] Lauren.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [06:03:19] I don't know if I have anything super profound to say, but.

John Dehlin [06:03:22] Are you exhausted? We're six hours and three minutes in

Lauren Johnson Matthias [06:03:25] but, but I will.

John Dehlin [06:03:27] Margi's here now. She's shaking her head.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [06:03:29] Oh, hi Margi. You know something that we used to say on our OG podcast, which is about the Day Bell case. We would end every podcast in episode with don't go into portals and essentially, you know, Chad Dabel believed in portals and don't go into portals was a light hearted way of saying, you know, you know, just keep your head up. Don't, don't, you know, stay out of cults. Avoid extreme beliefs. Don't fall for sociopaths. You know, look at facts, look at evidence, don't, you know, fall to your own what you want to believe or you know, just stay out of portals. So I think that's, you know, what I see from this case.

John Dehlin [06:04:16] Yeah. Thank you. And I'm going to just piggyback and say I was going to recommend the book Combating Cult Mindy Control by Stephen Hasson or Recovering Agency by Luna Lindsay Corbden. Luna Lindsay wrote Recovering Agency as someone who studied cults in depth and then applied it to the Mormon paradigm. A lot of people mentioned that Jody Hildebrandt, from their perspective, was a cult within a cult. But I don't care. Stay in the LDS Church. Leave it. Stay in Christianity. Leave it. I don't care what religion or how secular you are. Secular people can be as vulnerable to cults as religious people, sometimes more so we all need to get educated on undue influence, on, on cults, on cult leaders, on the characteristics of undue influence. Stephen Hasson is a world expert in that. Luna Lindsay's book is great. But become cult informed even if you stay faithful, active, believing Mormon. Bless you, we support you. Learn about cults. There can be yoga cults, there can be MLM cults, there can be merit marriage, you know, marital partners that, that act like cult leaders. Podcasters can be cults.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [06:05:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [06:05:29] There could be political cults. Right. There are all sorts of ways that, that people can wield undue influence. So please become cult aware by, by a good book or two. Go ahead, Lauren.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [06:05:43] No, no, Were you finished? I don't want to interrupt.

Megan Connor [06:05:45] No, go ahead.

Lauren Johnson Matthias [06:05:45] I did. I. You just helped me realize there is one more thing I want to say, and I think this whole scene is believing things. I've seen less of that in this day and age that people will see something and they, they don't believe themselves or they'll talk to someone else so they'll doubt themselves. And like, you know, you know, and we, you know, we always talk about confirmation bias. And I, I thought that was such an interesting quote again from Kevin when he said what was in my brain, the facts in my brain were not matching what was in front of me and I wouldn't believe it. And I think more than ever in this world, like, like see what you believe. That's what the saying is, believing or seeing is believing. And so often it feels like now it's believing a scene. But I think put that aside and, and believe what you see in front of you. And I just think that's so important this day and age.

John Dehlin [06:06:33] Yeah. And again, this is repeating what we've already covered. But like Kevin called it, as soon as he went to Connections and saw Jody, his immediate reaction was, this is a cult. And I think that's. Call it being born again. If you want to say Christian, call it being born again. If you've left a religion, then think of it as your awakening. Part of the maturation of life is to move from extrinsic sources of authority and control to intrinsic sources of authority and control. Develop your own inner light, your own inner wisdom, your inner knowledge. Unhealthy people or religions will try to take your attention away from cultivating that inner wisdom and inner knowledge. And your job as a healthy adult is to cultivate believing and trusting what you feel inside. Kevin saw it and then he distrusted his own instinct, which was that Jody was leading a cult. So as you're doing your own work about becoming cult informed, develop, you know, the kingdom of God is within. Jesus said it. The kingdom of God is within. Become born again to your own inner wisdom and knowledge. To trust your own instinct and voices over cult leaders. No cult leaders, no more cult leaders. Fair?

Megan Connor [06:07:52] Yes, very fair.

John Dehlin [06:07:53] Yeah. Except for the band. And if you want to worship the band, Celeste says, I love a good six hour Mormon Stories video. Yvonne says, not, not, not. Who's there? That's like, knock, knock, who's there? You guys get the pun? Who's there?

Mindy Caldwell [06:08:11] Oh, that's clever.

John Dehlin [06:08:12] New Richard Jones says, thanks, John and guests. She's also thanking Maven and Julia for moderating. And then Nigel says, perhaps the best ever panel discussion on Mormon stories.

Mindy Caldwell [06:08:24] I don't know.

John Dehlin [06:08:25] Glory 1 was pretty good. What do y' all think? Is this the best band performance so far?

Lauren Johnson Matthias [06:08:31] It was kind. I hope it was to somebody.

Megan Connor [06:08:33] This is the longest single performance. Yeah. I mean, our Visions of Glories were technically two episodes, but.

Mindy Caldwell [06:08:39] And we had a break in between.

John Dehlin [06:08:41] Someone's calling for banned merch. Jake Williams wants some band merch.

Megan Connor [06:08:44] I want some band merch.

John Dehlin [06:08:46] We gotta come up with a name. We can't emerge without a name. All right. Margi's like, can we end this up? No. All right, take care. Subscribe to hidden true crime YouTube channel to third verse midlife revolution. Subscribe to Mormon Stories, please like this episode. Share it with everyone. And then, of course, we at Mormon Stories, we depend on regular monthly donations for our ongoing support. So if you donate to us on a monthly basis or annually, thank you. If you don't any values type of content. I do pay people involved in in these sorts of panels and the staff. So we need your financial support to make that happen. You can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and that's how we'll keep continuing. And by the way, my YouTube revenues dropped the past couple months, so that's a problem. Anyway, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for all the comments in the live stream. Thanks to Julia, Brooklyn Maven, Gerardo, Margi, our board, thanks to all of you, all of our listeners and viewers. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks to all our respective partners that make what we do possible. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of our respective three channels. And we hope to get the band back together soon. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.