Introducing the Episode and Guests

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is October 30, 2023, the day before Halloween. I don't know if that's appropriate or not, but today we are here to discuss a story that broke last week. I was traveling and was not able to do an episode last week about this, but we're going to be talking about Blaise Thibodeau and his Doomsday mom. We're titling this Another Mormon Prepper disaster. I do want to add, there's a second episode that I'm developing. It's called Doomsday Mormon Prophet. Sort of a focus on Avram Gileadi. That name may not mean a lot to many of you, or it may, but we will be covering this story a little bit more than just today in the coming week or two. I am really excited to have with us back on Mormon Stories Podcast. The name, the myth, the legend. Lauren Matthias. Hey, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [00:01:07] Hey, John. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] How's it going?

Lauren Matthias [00:01:10] Good. How are you?

John Dehlin [00:01:12] I like that orange. Orange is my favorite color.

Guest [00:01:15] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] So, Lauren, you obviously, why don't you tell everyone who you are and what you do really quick just so they know those who don't.

Lauren Matthias [00:01:25] Absolutely. Lauren Matthias. I am the host of Hidden A True Crime podcast or Hidden True Crime on YouTube. The co host. I, I run that True crime channel with my forensic psychologist husband, Dr. John Matthias. And we've been very, very busy covering just the ongoing crimes that seem to have been committed by those that are lds. Not, not on purpose. And it's as I've said, they just keep happening. And so thus John Dehlin and I have been very close collaborating, whether we like it or not. Right, John? Luckily, we like it, but that's who I am and I'm grateful to be here. Thank you, John, for delving into this with me.

Overview of Visions of Glory and Mormon Prepper Culture

John Dehlin [00:02:12] My pleasure. And you know, over the past couple weeks, we did a really deep dive into the book. I'll hold it up here. Visions of Glory by John Pontius, also by Tom Harrison. We did with our, with our friends Megan and Mindy. We did a really deep dive about this book and its influence on not just Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, but also on Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad and Jesse Hildebrandt and just all this prepper mayhem you've been covering for a long time that continues to build and sweep Mormonism. And then, of course, we were just so, so fortunate also last week to have an Amazing couple, Kim and Josh.

Lauren Matthias [00:03:02] Kim being the daughter of Christopher Perrette. And I'll share that Christopher Perrette. You were really great at never mentioning his name, but I'll mention his name if that's okay because I've been covering Christopher Perrette for four years now. Um, the. The owner, not the founder, the. The AVOW website. Another Voice of Warning is a prepper website located in Rexburg, Idaho. It was founded by Roger K. Young and it focuses on dreams and visions of those that are Latter Day Saints in the last days and preparing for the end. It is now owned by Christopher Perrette, who is the father of. Of Kim, the. The incredible woman you interviewed. And he gave Chad Daybell the biggest platform I would say that Chad had. Chad would preach his visions and dreams on the EVAL website. There was even behind a paywall, paywall. His biggest dreams and visions, those that were of our members had to pay to see how his dreams and visions would end. It is actually the place where he met Julie Rowe, another well known prepper, near death experience experience 2015 sort of prophetess. I don't know what she is. Energy healer, depending on what you know about her. And that is where Chad met Julie Rowe, which is very important because then he started publishing Julie Rose, very popular near death experience books. And those popular books spread like wildfire fire within the Rexburg area and made Chad a lot of money and got Chad a lot of attention for his. His own publishing company, Spring Creek. And through that he gained more and more attention and then became a really a bigger deal on avow. Then he, then he jumped in the speaker circuit, started going around and continuing these near death experience, visionary doomsday thing. And then here we are years later. But the point is a vowel. AVOW is very central to this sort of prepper growth and. And Chad Daybell becoming a household name among preppers, I guess you should say, at least among East Idaho LDS visionary preppers. And the EVAL website is it's visions, dreams and being prepared. Being prepared. I will. I'll say this. The most shocking thing I ever saw Chad Dabel say on the AVOW website was in response to a Christopher Perret comment. And Chad asked Christopher Perret that when, when the zombies start coming from the liberal Idaho Falls, what do they do? Do they just shoot the zombies or. Or what? And he was asking Christopher Pratt's advice so that. That'll tell you about some of the conversations that happen on the Vow.

Guest 2 [00:05:57] So there you go.

Lauren Matthias [00:05:58] You interviewed Kim full circle.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] You interviewed Kim we had Kim and Josh Coffin on Kim being the daughter of Christopher Perrette. And I kind of thought we would maybe have a break from Mormon prepper mayhem. But I think that was foolish because this story broke just at the end of last week. And so we're covering yet another crazy, crazy story. And I guess I'll just say a couple things. First of all, I want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation that make all this possible. I'm also thankful for the people who, who donate through the Super Chat feature. We have Daniel John Kerry already sending a super chat saying, I wonder if this situation has anything to do with what blaze's patriarchal blessing says. So many take the patriarchal blessing wording and run with it as if it is truth and their destiny. So that's getting ahead of our story. So we're going to be getting to that. Daniel, I do want to thank everyone who's joining us on the live streams, both on YouTube and on Facebook and, and, and Lauren, you have an amazing audience as well. And, and I'm sure you want to give them some love as well, right?

Lauren Matthias [00:07:21] Yes, yes, absolutely. Oh, you know what? I wasn't even streaming it to my audience, but yes. Should I go, Should I stream this to my audience?

John Dehlin [00:07:32] If you can. If you can, you're welcome to. While you're doing, while you're setting that up. I will, I will go ahead and jump to kind of an introduction to this story. And I guess I'll just start by just saying, you know, the Mormon prepper movement spans back at least decades. I mean, waiting for the second coming of Jesus Christ is 2000 years old. As soon as Jesus Christ died, people, you know, his apostles and his followers were expecting him to return within their lifetime. And so this idea of a second coming of Jesus, even though it's not really biblical, according to, you know, Dan McClellan, we had him on Mormon Stories podcast. He said Revelations was not written for modern day. It was written for the people who are still alive when Jesus died. That's what Bible scholar Dan McClelland says. Regardless, for 2,000 years, Christians have been expecting Jesus to come back any day now. And, you know, that's been true before the foundation of the Mormon Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But as soon as Joseph Smith changed the name of the church he founded to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that sort of added this millennialistic Latter Days prophecy to the Mormon Church and to its followers. And so even Joseph Smith himself predicted that if he were to live until like he was 70 or something like that, that he would see the second coming of Jesus. So many, many of Joseph's contempor lived until I believe it was 1890, believed that Jesus was going to come by 1890. And of course Jesus didn't come in 1890. And so the church leaders issued the second manifesto and realized that maybe they wouldn't be reuniting to Independence, Missouri anytime soon. And Zion started really getting established in Utah and, and the church started distancing itself, at least overtly, from any sort of gathering to a final gathering place in preparation for Jesus's coming. Now having said that, it was still very popular in the 1900s, specifically with people like Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie to really be pumping up and hyping up this second times, end of times kind of stuff. And with Ezra Taft Benson and the John Birch society in the 1960s, this whole idea of John Bircher, ultra conservative Republicanism Christianity led to the beginnings of what we would say is now the modern Mormon prepper movement. And we've covered a lot of that on Mormon stories in the past. But what I think I want to start with is a really important year which is 1993. 1993 is the year that Avraham Gileadi, who was a well known scholar of the Bible and specifically of Isaiah, he was excommunicated from the church as part of the September 6th. So prior to that, Avram Gileadi had studied by his report under Hugh Nible. Hugh Nible, I believe Avram Gileadi claims that Hugh Nibley said at one point that no one in the Mormon Church knew Isaiah better than Avram Gileadi or some sort of message like that. Avraham Gileadi ended up writing books, doing circuits firesides tours until he ran afoul of the church leaders. And in 1993 he found himself excommunicated from the Mormon Church. And I think the brethren's concern at the time was that he was talking too much about the Second Coming, talking too much about end Times, and too many people were starting to follow him and get too worried about the Second Coming. It turns out that after he's excommunicated he was able to meet with Mormon Apostle Neal A. Maxwell, which coincidentally was also Tom Harrison's apostle friend that's mentioned in the beginning of the Visions of Glory book. And it appears as though Neal A. Maxwell pulled strings and got Avram Gileadi re baptized within three years of his excommunication so my understanding is, is that by 1996, Avraham Gileadi was re baptized in the Mormon Church and continued his book publishing and, and continued his sort of prepper prophecies all around Isaiah and the End of Times. And so you sort of fast forward between then and the 2010s. You know, Lauren, you'll remember this Visions of Glory book by Tom Harrison was published in 2012, is that right?

Lauren Matthias [00:13:00] That's correct. Published in 2012. And you have the five year edition, which means you have, I think, a back that I don't have too even.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Yeah. And by the way, the back of this book has Avram Gileadi. His testimony is in the back of this book. So I'm not mentioning Avram Gili, you know, I'm not mentioning Avram Gileadi or Visions of Glory for nothing. These things are all super, super connected. If y' all remember the Visions of Glory dual episode we did just a couple weeks ago, Avram Gileadi writes about Visions of Glory. Visions of Glory is God's gift to humanity at a critical time in its history. It accords in every way. Did you hear that, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:13:45] Yes, every way.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] It accords in every way with biblical prophecies about Zion and Jerusalem. The end of the world as we know it as the prophet Isaiah and Apostle John depict in code, is masterfully detailed in John Pontius, as Spencer related it to him, Spencer being Tom Harrison. So, so between 2012 and, and let's just say a couple years ago, that's when a lot of the prepper stuff that you started following really started emerging. And we've talked a lot about Tom Harrison's role. We haven't talked a lot about Avram Gileadi's role. And in reality, Lauren, I think you haven't, you haven't really studied Avram Gileadi a whole lot. Is that true?

Lauren Matthias [00:14:30] No, no. You and I have been talking and I, and I even said to you I'm looking forward to learning a lot more from you tonight about him. All I know is you brought him up in our podcast. You brought him up because I don't have the endorsement on the back of my book like you do. And so you brought him up during our Visions of Glory podcast and you said, this is one of the September 6th, this is really important. You shared who he was, his relationship with Neal Maxwell, which you just did again. And I really didn't know much. I thought, oh, that's interesting. So then we all leave and we go home and I Fly back home and all. And, and this Blaze story comes out this next week, which, you know, we all said. I, I, I do want to say that, John, you said on the podcast, like, if, if people don't do something, this is going to happen again and again. And here we are. And then his, his father, Blaze's father, Ben, is on East Idaho News being interviewed by Nate Eaton. And he states she studied Avram Gileadi. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, you just brought it up. And so all of these people started writing me, telling me what they knew about him. I've been on a phone call with a few people, but no, you know much more about him than I do. And I'm looking forward to actually myself learning a lot more about him from you tonight. So thank you.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] No, my pleasure. And thank you. And again, we're loving our YouTube. Now we've got the Hidden True Crime audience joined with us as well as the Mormon stories audience. This is a great collaboration. I'm always thrilled to collaborate with great creators. Let's go ahead and dive into the story. Maven was kind enough to put together some slides for us. We've got some visuals. Do you want to talk us through what's on this slide, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:16:10] Yes, yes. This is our, this is our diagram, our graph, our scientific graph of, of the players in this, this case that, you know, that luckily everyone is okay as far as we know right now.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] By the way, we should put do a shout out to east, what is it? East Idaho News.

clip [00:16:30] Idaho News.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:30] Nate Eaton. They did a great job on this story. They brought this. Yeah, public. Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] That Nate Eaton guy is really on the ball. Like he's an important contributor.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:42] He is, he is. And he did an incredible two interviews with, with Ben and Thibodeau and then also Braden, Braden Snar.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] The, we're gonna show some clips from that.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:53] Okay, terrific.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] People are calling me out. Echoes. Echoes from the Tabernacle is saying John gets a little shouty when he's excited. Am I getting shouty, Lauren? Am I being shouty?

Guest [00:17:03] You know what?

Lauren Matthias [00:17:04] I do that whenever I'm live. I get shouty. And it's also, I think it's actually a little bit of like a deadline. We gotta go. We gotta get this story out. I know that you' all day on this, so I think, I think that would make sense.

Cast of Characters in the Idaho Prepper Case

John Dehlin [00:17:17] All right, well, here's the cast of characters. Talk us through the cast of characters. Thanks to East Idaho News for this visual.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:24] Yes. Yes, thank you, Nate. So let's Start with Brook Hale. That is Spring's brother, Spring, right there. Spring Tibo is the mother of Blaze, who was arrested of felony counts. We'll talk about that in a second. And Spring and Brooke, who I just mentioned, along with Abby, go down below. Abby Snar in the middle there. That is. That is the daughter of Spring, the niece of Brooke. The three of them left their preppers. They all, they all seem to believe that the, the earth was coming to an end or, or, you know, they were preparing for the second coming or the tribulations ahead. And with them they took Blaze Thibodeau, who is right there at the red. He is 16. He's the minor in this story, the one that everyone was very concerned about. Luckily, he was found at the Alaskan border. Then the person on the very left is Braden Snarr. That's somebody else in Nate Eaton interviewed that is the husband of Abby Snarr. Really interesting. They're both very young. They're, they're newlyweds. They were married a couple years ago. And Abby invited. We'll get into that. But Abby invited Braden to come. He declined. Everybody stated that Blaze would likely decline. He didn't believe any of this, but somehow he was with them. And then Ben on the top right there, Thibodeau, the father of Blaze, he is the one that did an excellent interview with East Idaho News and Nate Eaton explaining why he was so concerned about his son. He said his son did not believe this. He's 6ft tall, a football player, 16 years old. He was very, very worried that his brother in law, specifically, that's what he said in the interview. His brother in law right there, Brooke Hale, would maybe even do something to Blaze or that he might be drugged or they might, you know, restrain him. Because there's no way that Blaze would want to go with them on some journey to avoid, you know, apocalyptic doom, in other words.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] So just to kind of like, thank you for that intro and I just kind of want to. Let's just set the stage a little bit. So we've got this prepper mom, Spring Thibodeau, living in Arizona with her husband Ben. My understanding is their marriage was in trouble prior to this. Do you have any sense for the status of their marriage just before all this mayhem even erupted? Lauren?

Spring Thibodeau's Marriage Troubles and Background

Lauren Matthias [00:20:00] Yes. Separated. Separated and getting divorced. And it wasn't, it wasn't a great divorce, according to Ben in his interview with Nate. It wasn't ending necessarily well either. And I do find this interesting and important to know. And then there was also about nine days before the kidnapping. That's what this was. The kidnapping of Blaze took place. Ben filed for divorce for Spring, Blaze's mother. And I think that is important to note because in a lot of these cases, and if we're going to compare this to daybell, which is my expertise, I mean, I could talk forever about daybell till the end of times. You also have marriages that were in trouble. You know, you have marriages that weren't doing well. And so I think it is important to note that. And I'm glad you put those arrows. Those were your additions, Right? That marriage in trouble news.

Speaker F [00:20:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] And then the other. The other marriage that wasn't. That was in trouble. My understanding is Brook Hale and his. And his wife and five kids, they live in Provo. And their marriage. Brook Hale's marriage was on the rocks, too. In fact, my understanding is that Brooke hasn't been living with his wife and kids for at least several months.

Guest [00:21:17] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] And so I guess. I guess you. You have just, like. I hate to say it, but just like these shootings that you see all throughout the United States, it seems like if you add hard times, people having individual hard times with kind of this fundamental prepperist ideology, then it can cause some people to snap. And it's a really dangerous sort of combination of people struggling in their lives. And then you add to that this kind of prepper visions and fundamentalist theology. I just think we. I love it that you call that out. And I think we need to continue to call that out. Okay, so we've got Ben and Spring in a bad marriage. Spring's connected with her brother Brooke. They're talking all about Avram Gileadi in the End Times, and.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:16] And Julie Rowe.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] And Julie Rowe.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:19] We'll get to that.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Somehow Spring and Brook get the idea that Spring Sun Blaze is. Is the Davidic servant. And we're going to get into that. We're not going to cover that now. But of course, Abby is also recruited into this as a believer. And then Braden, of course, we learned, decides to stay back. This was a screenshot you shared. Do you want to tell us what this is and why you thought it was interesting?

Lauren Matthias [00:22:46] Yeah.

clip [00:22:46] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:47] In all of these cases, including the Daybell case, you know, those that, you know of us that are lds, you know, we think, well, they. They weren't going to church or they were maybe with a fundy, you know, a fundamentalist or they, you know, or some breakoff group. Here is Spring Thibodeau in good standing, shows the ward she's in, she is a temple ordinance worker in Gilbert, Arizona. It's also very chilling because Lori Valow Daybell was also in the temple almost every day. Her temple attendance was actually the subject at trial how much she attended, when she attended. And so it's just interesting that here we have another Gilbert, Arizona very close to where Lori was. The same town as Zulema and Melanie Gibb. That's what's in the water.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] What's in the water of Gilbert, Arizona.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:42] I know you have to ask that. You do wonder what is going on in not just Rexburg but in Gilbert, Arizona area with some members. We're not, it's not all members. We're not saying that. We're not saying that. But clearly there is, there are groups of like minded members in these pockets and we're just trying to understand why. And so she is an active member that was a temple ordinance worker as of right now.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] And I've heard Gilbert, Arizona described as Provost South. Have you ever heard that, that it's sort of like super conservative, upper middle class, more wealthy Mormons just, just kind of located centrally in Arizona. I'd be really curious to hear the Mormon population density in Gilbert. I'm guessing it's relatively high.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:33] Yeah. I just know that there are a lot of LDS members in Gilbert. To the point too, there are so many LDS members there that I didn't even think to myself, oh, I wonder if Zulema or Melanie Gibb or Brandon Boudreau. That's, you know, the Gilbert police was in charge of Brandon Boudreau's case. If they even know them. Because there are, there is a highly populated, highly populated number of Mormons there. But this was actually the same stake ward area that Zulema and Melanie Gibb lived that were very close to Laurie.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] That's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something needs to happen in that stake. All right, the next, the next slide I'm going to show is a slide of Blaze with I'm assuming is some homecoming date or prom date sort of thing. And Lauren, I'm curious if your Mormon sensibilities have any reactions to this, to this photo?

Lauren Matthias [00:25:22] Well, I want to say they look adorable. They, they look fashionable. And I think that that is a. What they're wearing looks like what a lot of kids wear to dances. But as far as being a fundy or an extremist, I don't think Blaze is living that lifestyle. They look like regular teenagers in that photo. They look like they're having a blast.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] He's almost got a leisure suit Going on. Do you notice that? It's. It's almost like a. It's almost like a 70s throwback a little bit.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:57] Yes. Yeah. I love it. You can tell that they are light hearted, having fun, living the high school lifestyle. They do not look concerned that the second coming might be around the corner. They do not look like, you know, he's worried about preparing right now. It looks like he's just living the high school. High school dream right now as. As does his date. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] Yeah. And. And by all reports, this kid doesn't believe in all this. This prepper stuff.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:26] Yeah. And I did like to say, I did like Cece's comment there. He is not giving off church nerd.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] Maybe that's not giving church nerd.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:34] He's not giving the church nerd vibes.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] That's good. Thank you, Cece. All right, so here's the mom. What. What is this? What is she giving Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:26:45] What's church nerd vibes?

John Dehlin [00:26:47] No, she's giving mom, but it's kind of happy. Happy, joyous Mormon mom, right?

Lauren Matthias [00:26:53] He looks very sweet. Yes. I wouldn't look at her and say, oh, there's a prepper for you. But, you know, I'm looking at it biasedly, knowing what I know. I could see her more fit this mold than her son.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] Blaze and I have had people email me who know her, and they. They say, the sweetest, nicest woman. Have you heard that? Any reports like that?

Lauren Matthias [00:27:14] That too. I've heard people that. That I've actually heard from some people that maybe she wasn't even that social, but she was always kind, that she was always sweet. Nobody. I have not gotten a single message from anyone that says she was unkind, she was rigid, she was mean. Some people admitted they didn't know her very well, but nobody said anything but that she was kind.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Yeah, that's what I've heard, too. All right, and then. And then here's the young. The young married couple, and they just

Lauren Matthias [00:27:44] look like BYU students to me. They just look like really nice young newlyweds. That's Abby Snar there. She is Blazes sister. She is Blaze's sister, and she is married to Braden Snar. They're. I mean, they've been married a couple years now. So I consider that newlyweds their age, they're like, oh, you know, we've got two years under our belt, but you can see how young they are. I believe they're both returned missionaries, I want to say. And clearly they got married young. They look like kids in that picture. And I don't know. What do you see in that picture? That's what I see.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] Yeah. Just a young, young, bright, happy Mormon couple.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] And which kind of makes this all the more tragic. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:30] We're not talking about fundamentalists here so far. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:28:34] And then this guy, that's Brookhale, the uncle. And I want to say. I want to just point out this odd, this odd kind of coincidence, too, with the Davel case. It was. It was Lori Vallow's brother Alex, that was very much a part of the system. And now we have another uncle and it's Spring's brother. And there he is. I don't know. Just. Just looks like an average Joe to me there in that photo.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] Yeah. All right, so you have some theories, Lauren, on a couple things that you think may have triggered this event. Do you want to talk about at least a couple things?

Lauren Matthias [00:29:12] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Before this.

Guest [00:29:16] First off.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:17] Yeah. I do have a few theories on what triggered this event. And I'll share them all to address what's on the screen right here. I do know for. I do know that Spring. This video, this YouTube video was on Spring's computer. I know that she was looking at that right before they left. I've listened to the whole thing. It is not LDS based. It's actually a preacher in Las Vegas. But it is, if you believe this stuff would be very frightening. I'll say this. This person stated that the Middle east conflict, that was the big theme in this video. Is it, though, that it doesn't last very long? All past conflicts in the Middle east last a couple weeks at most. Something big is going to happen. They brought up the recent eclipse and that Halloween is coming and Halloween is of the devil and you better be prepared. And it was just. He said at one point, if you sound like I yell, I'm yelling, it's because I am. Do something. Be prepared. So it was a very frightening warning. This video, in addition to that, interestingly enough, again, bringing up the podcast that you and I just did, John, about Visions of Glory, it seemed to trigger something in a lot of the people that love Visions of Glory. And then this interview that you did and that you premiered right after our Visions of Glory episode. This is Kim Coffins and Josh Coffin and. And they are again, Kim is again Christopher Perrette's daughter. He is the owner of avow, the AVOW website. Another voice of warning that we went over earlier in this episode. For those in my audience that missed it because I started late, go check that out on Mormon Stories, the beginning. We go all over who a vow and what a vow is. So it seemed. I'm just going to say, I think that you really triggered a vow, John. And the. And some of that community.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] We did.

Speaker F [00:31:12] We did.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:13] We did. Because I've also have. You know, while Christopher doesn't want to admit it, there are some snitches in a Vow. I'll just say that that definitely send me a lot. They probably send you a bit, too, John. I have the whole thread about Kim Coffin's interview. The entire thread, what everyone was talking about, what Chris is talking about, and the entire thread about the Visions of Glory episode. They were talking about these episodes. So after the Visions of Glory episode aired and we flew home and before you premiered Kim's interview, I received an email from someone. I had not talked to this person in a few years, but they have been an excellent source with many things that I've covered in the daybell case. And they said, hey, I gotta show you this. I just got an email from Christopher Perrett. I didn't even know Christopher Perrett still had my email address. I'm a former eval member. I'm not on about anymore. I don't know why he would send this to me, but check it out. And so I checked it out and I read it, and it's this email screenshot you just put up there, which talks again about the conflict in the Middle east, and it talks about. It's asking everyone to log into a vow. But this is. This was my first thought. The Blaze story hadn't happened. When I got this email, my first thought was, oh, Christopher Pratt is trying to get ahead of his daughter's premiere tomorrow. He knew, I'm sure, that his daughter's interview was coming down. He had heard word about it because people were discussing it. He had. He actually. And then that was confirmed, because I saw an avowed post where Christopher Perrett said, hey, by the way, my daughter's about to be interviewed, and I'm going to try to get ahead of this. And he shared that at that same time, he's writing this email and saying, everybody log on to a vow right now. Are you prepared? The Middle east conflict. Don't forget this, don't forget that. And he's clearly trying to, you know, rally his army, get them all on a vow. So he doesn't. So he's not canceled because, you know, go watch Kim's interview. I'll just say that I, you know, he knew. I think some of the things that were probably coming. So I have a theory. I just. I just want to say this, that. That Spring was a huge fan of Julie Rowe.

Braden Snar Describes His Wife's Radicalization

clip [00:33:45] Huge fan.

Lauren Matthias [00:33:46] She was a scribe for Julie Rowe for a time, 2015 era. This is when a vow was huge. I can't imagine with that being in play that Spring was not ever a member of a vow because Julie Rowe had her platform on a vow. Avows the thing. And so if this email is going to former members, current members, I. I've just got to be certain that Spring also received this email. And I want to throw that out there, because when you have people that are fearful and you're stoking fear, I want you to be held accountable. And I just want to say for everyone sending out these emails to people when they are afraid already and watching these videos, like, shame on you. Like, it's just I. I do suspect that that also played a role. Was it the only role? No. But I do want to point that out that these, you know, those are affecting these people to be afraid, be very afraid. The conflict in the Middle east, you know, Friday the 13th in October, Halloween and an eclipse. Boom, you got a problem.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] There's a. There's a really good question. Annie Aydin asks if Julie Rowe got excommunicated. The answer is yes, Julie Rowe was excommunicated. Do we know about Christopher Peretz membership status, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:34:59] I cannot confirm or deny. I cannot say either way, but I have never heard that he's been excommunicated. So as far as I know, he is a member in good standing. Unless someone can correct me. But if. If asking me today, I would say, oh, yeah, he's a. He's a member.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] And Avram Giulioti absolutely is. Is still, as far as I know, a member in good standing. I had someone reach out to me who is in his stake and was able to confirm that as of just last year, the year before, he was a member. Okay, so we're going to dive in and show some clips of some interviews again by Nate. Nate, right. Of East Idaho News.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:37] Nate Eaton. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] And they're going to just kind of lay down, as a matter of public record, kind of what happened in the story, and then we'll comment between clips. Is that okay?

Lauren Matthias [00:35:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] All right, Lauren, let's jump in. And who is this?

Lauren Matthias [00:35:53] This is. This is Braden Snar and is the husband of Abby Snar.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] All right.

Speaker F [00:36:01] Never did I ever expect this to happen. My wife, six or so months ago mentioned to me, she was like, braden, if there was ever a Time that we needed to go, would you be willing to. And my response to her said was yes. I mean, if we were invaded by another country or our lives were in jeopardy, I would obviously not be in Phenix. And in my apartment, I would leave.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Can you just. I just want to pause there for a second. Can you imagine being a newlywed couple and you're just a year or two into your marriage and you're already believing that the world is going to end in any moment, and you're warning your husband, hey, if I get the revelation that the end is nigh, will you be coming with me? What?

Lauren Matthias [00:36:49] I know, right? I know what newlyweds have that conversation. I don't know. I had that question on my first date. I'm like, okay, what if Dr. John. Yeah. On Tinder as your Tinder headline now. You know, ready to go? Are you ready? No. I cannot imagine having that conversation as a newlywed.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Yeah, super sad. Anyway, let's. Let's go on to the next clip.

The Weekend Everything Changed

Speaker F [00:37:17] Nothing was wrong. It was a normal weekend for us. Date nights, everything of those sorts of things. It wasn't until Monday morning that I got ready, woke up, showered, went to work, that I got a call about 9:54am from my wife telling me that she needed to go to the hospital, that it was an emergency, and that I needed to come home as soon as possible. And so I hurried, rushed home. When my wife opened the door, the apartment was a mess. She had gone and purchased a bunch of hunting utility camping gear from a local sportsman's warehouse. And in utter shock, she told me that it's time to go, it's time for us to leave, and that I need to go with her.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] Yeah. So it sounded super last minute, like it's not like she had been storing up equipment for months or years. It's like she went to the local whatever target or I don't know, grabbed some supplies and said, we're on our way. What was the weird thing about going to the hospital and then him coming back and the doorbell camera was off? Do you know what I'm talking about there?

Lauren Matthias [00:38:28] Yeah. Yeah, that was interesting. She actually called him and said, hey, I'm sick. I need your help. Come come help me. I need to go to the hospital. And so when he got there, the first thing he noticed is that the doorbell camera had been taken off the door. Which to me, my speculation is some paranoia. We're being watched or we don't want to see where, you know, we don't want people to see where we left it is. It is interesting. And then when he went in there, he realized she was packing all this winter gear when they live in Arizona. And she said, the time is now. Yeah, I. I don't know why the. The camera would be off, but it definitely seems like some paranoia or we're being watched, or we will be watched. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Yeah. All right, let's roll to the next clip.

Speaker F [00:39:15] I love her. She's loved my life. And she comes in and says, it's time to go, and I'm not coming back. It's one of those experiences where part of you is just like, I can't let you go. I. I have to go with you, Even if it makes no logical sense, because that's. That's who you love. But deep down inside of me, I knew that this. This couldn't be. And whatever comes from this, I have to. I have to be here. You. In that moment, I said, take whatever you want, whatever you need, you can go. But I can't. I can't go.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Mavis got the theory. She writes the doorbell was off so that he couldn't see preparations going in and out of the house with the gear. Otherwise, he'd have known she wasn't sick. That's Maven's theory.

Lauren Matthias [00:40:04] I think that's a brilliant theory. Yeah. Probably. Possibly.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] Yeah. So. So what do you make of that, of him saying, I can't go?

Lauren Matthias [00:40:15] You know, I actually props to Braden. I think it shows that even though I think that clearly there was some preparing in Braden a bit, you know, if he's clearly been going along with it so far and they're having these conversations again at this young age, would you go if you're ready? I think clearly they've had the conversations. I think it shows, though, that there's some common sense still in him and maybe even in many people that are preparing. I always say it does it. Look, being prepared is a good thing. You know, being prepared for things is not bad. But when it comes to this sort of paranoia and no evidence, a lack of evidence. Right. I think what Braden's saying is, yeah, I'll go. Show me the evidence. Where's the evidence? And when he couldn't see any evidence, he was pretty much like, you know what? I'm good. But I can't imagine what it was like for him to make that choice, too. To kind of realize, gosh, I've got a. She's going to go without me. I don't know. You know? Then you think, well, should he have gone to Take care of her. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe he was worried about losing his job. Maybe had she done this before, it is interesting that he would feel strong enough to realize I shouldn't go with her.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Yeah. And, you know, I was able to watch the entire. This video has been taken down, by the way. The video of Braden, for whatever reason, has been taken down by the East Idaho News. So we had to find clips of it elsewhere on the Internet. I was able to watch the whole video. And it's interesting because he. He talks about how they had a business venture together, like a year prior to this. This happening. And they were together, like, every single day, 24 by 7, for, like, an entire year. And he basically describes their life as like homebodies, where they really aren't super social. They're just each other's besties, always together. So to think about her saying, I'm out of here. Are you coming or not? And then him saying, I'm staying, given. Given their history together, that was even more profound for me.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:29] Yeah, yeah. He clearly. He clearly did not see what she saw when it came down to it.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, we'll run the next clip. Okay. The next one's saying it can't be played. Okay, well, that's all. That's all we're going to be able to play from Braden right now. And what we're going to do now is switch to the dad. We're going to switch to Ben Thibodeau. He gives maybe another. I don't know if it's a more detailed account, but he certainly gives a detailed account. It's also heart wrenching. Is there anything you want to say about Ben before we launch in to his clips?

Lauren Matthias [00:43:13] No, it was a heart wrenching video to watch. You know, I just want to say, when you are all of a sudden a victim of a crime or not sure what's going on, no one ever wants to be in this situation or ever plans to be in this situation. And I'm always impressed when they're able to come forward and give these eloquent interviews. It's so easy to judge them. And I've heard a lot of people sort of criticize what he said and what he didn't say. And I think he just did an excellent job relaying this information. I thought it was great.

John Dehlin [00:43:42] All right, well, let's go ahead and roll the first clip.

clip [00:43:47] He resisted and said, I. I do not want to go. My daughter was emotional. Braden was emotional. They called Brooke Brooke tried to persuade him, shared some dreams with him, shared some scriptures with him, told him he needed to be like Zoram, who followed Lehi and his family into the wilderness and to just have faith. Braden felt very uncomfortable. He, in the moment, just was so shocked. He said that he needed to get out of there.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] Okay, so that's going to sound like a little bit of gobbledygook to the non Mormons, for those of you who don't know about the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon claims to be a history of this family that lived in Jerusalem in 600, 600 years before the birth of Christ. And the leader of the family is Lehi. He's a kind of, think of it as a bearded old prophet kind of guy. And he has a wife and several children. And Lehi gets this vision that he needs to leave Jerusalem before it's destroyed. So Lehi takes his family and leaves. And in the Book of Mormon, there's this other character named Zoram who Lehi encourages to leave as well. Anything you want to say about? I mean, it's interesting that they're quoting the Book of Mormon. Not just that it's like history, but that we need to follow the example of Lehi and his family in the Book of Mormon and flee the city we live in because destruction is nigh. I mean, it's right there in the Book of Mormon. I didn't even realize the Book of Mormon is a prepper book from like chapter three.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:35] Correct? Yeah. No, the thing I want to say about it is, you know, I'm. I want to just keep pointing out the similarities between the Day Bell case and the Lori Ballot case. They also, they fled the wilderness. In other words, they were in Arizona. Lori only lived in warm places. That was actually like a deal in hers. And Charles's marriage was. In her marriage to Charles was, I, I only want to live in Hawaii or Arizona. She was a California girl. She liked the warm weather. And all of a sudden, Lori just, without really telling anyone, left with her two youngest children to Idaho on faith. And it was a similar experience. And Laurie also justified things using the Book of Mormon when her, her husband Charles was murdered. You know, it was a Nephi and Laban ending, and that's how it was explained among her friends. So just here's another example of again, fleeing. Are you. Are you ready? I guess that question is part of that. Will you go when the time is nigh? And here Laurie did it, and now spring is doing it.

Guest 3 [00:46:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] Maeve was able to get that. That last clip with Braden to work. So I'm going to go ahead and go back and play that really quick.

Speaker F [00:46:47] Thanks. I sent her a few text messages just saying, I love you. I can't believe this is happening. Like, what are we doing? What are you doing? You know, there's consequences to this. Like, they're gonna find you. And she adamantly kept sending text messages. You need to come with me. I love you. Please be here. It's not too late. You can still make it to the airport. The last text message I got from her was the word okay with a red heart after I said, I flew my. My dad out here.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] What do you. What do you make of that, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:47:22] It's just sad. My heart goes out to him, you know, it's. They're just. I know that they're adults and they're married, but I just see him as this. This young boy learning and experiencing life for the first time. And as you point out, I can't imagine dealing with something like this in your first years of marriage. And just what that was, that was

John Dehlin [00:47:43] like, wasn't there an exchange where she basically said, I'll see you in a few years, if you're still alive.

Lauren Matthias [00:47:49] She said, I'll see you in a few years. Yeah, that was really interesting. That was telling. Like, maybe they'll be back. And I think that's. Maybe that's something important to point out, too, when Mormons refer to. Or Those that are LDs refer to the end of the world. And I think this is something that needs to be pointed out with the Daybell group as well. There's those that believe in the end, where it's like post tribulation and it's the Rapture and everyone, you know, the second coming of Christ comes and people move on to heaven. But in the pre tribulation, you know, that's what I call it pre trib. The pre tribulation sort of second coming. It's actually not the end of the world. You don't all just go to heaven. You're. You're preparing for calamities and destruction and just terrible, terrible times that happens. And this is the visions of glory, really. This. This is actually the entire visions of glory book. So you're. The end is coming, but the tribulations are coming, and only the righteous will survive. And then you have to live through it. So I think that is an important distinction to make because people think, well, if Chad just thought the earth was going to blow up, why were they collecting money? And, you know, Living in Hawaii, like, no, that, you know, they knew it wasn't going to end. You have to realize this is pre tribulation rapture dreams. It's, it's the, it's the Visions of Glory book. They, Everyone dies except for the last 144,000 on Earth and they have to survive on Earth, so. So that is important part of this.

Doomsday Visions, Dreams, and Prepper Beliefs

John Dehlin [00:49:16] And I always find it crazy when somebody kind of pulls a spiritual trump card and says, well, I know that I'm going to be alive, but you may or may not be because I've, I've got that channel into the divine. But you, you may or may not have that channel.

Guest 3 [00:49:31] Right?

Lauren Matthias [00:49:32] I'm leaving, you're staying. So I love you, but hopefully I'll

John Dehlin [00:49:36] see if you're not crispy, you know, wild. I know Mavo was able to find that clip. Let's go and play it.

Speaker F [00:49:42] Arizona family also reporting that Blaze's sister, 24 year old Abigail Thibodeau, was also with them. Braden Snar, Abby's husband, says she tried to convince him to go with them, buying him a ticket to Boise, Idaho. She said, I love you. We will be back in a few years and if you're still around, I'll come find you.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] I just, I can't even. I can't even. All right. And yeah, thanks to Maven. Maven did so much work putting together this presentation at the last minute. So huge thanks to Maven. Shout out to her. All right, let's go to the next clip, which. This is Ben Thibodeau again. This is Blaze's dad talking about how it all started.

clip [00:50:30] So back in 2015, my wife got involved pretty heavily with Julie Rowe so much that she was asked to be a scribe for some of these revelations that Julie Rowe was receiving. There was some energy healings that took place. It concerned me a great deal. I expressed that to her and we actually, I requested that we go in and talk to our ecclesiastical leader, a bishop, to talk about it. The bishop asked her, or essentially told her she needed to stop if she wanted the marriage to survive. Spring stopped following Julie Rowe at that time, but I think she was still indoctrinated with a lot of what was taught and shared. My wife's always been fascinated with the End of Days, the last times. She's recently been researching significantly, an author by the name of Abraham Gileadi who purports to understand the Book of Isaiah. My wife brought my daughter into this about two and a half years ago and they started having dreams and they Started sharing dreams and both felt like they had the gift to interpret dreams. They brought my brother in law into this about a year and a half ago when he was going through a pretty significant crisis in his own marriage and he, he just has taken it and run with it. But yes, my wife has been involved in these types of things in one way or another for many years. She's always been a church attending a temple worthy member of our church and served in Collins. But on the side she's had this hobby of researching the second coming and signs of the times and the end of the world.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] Okay, so I'm going to admit that I did not remember that excerpt that Brooke was recruited into this crazy millennialistic preparation by Spring, his sister. For some reason I always think the guy, the man is the bad guy. And I'm not saying Spring's bad, but what do you make of the fact that Brooke was recruited by Spring?

Lauren Matthias [00:53:03] Well, it's the same thing with the Lori Valo case. Lori recruited Alex. And it is interesting. You know, Lori sings about Alex's conversion, says, and she actually sings the song to, to Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. And she says, Lori says to Al about Alex's conversion, her brother, it started out with Julie Rowe and it turned on the light. So you know, and he was changed forever in an instant. And then she talks about how he started listening to Mike Stroud. It seems as a Spring also convinced her brother. What that's about, I don't know. But it also, it makes me also wonder if these women sort of feel like they need the male presence. I don't, I don't know. But they are actively recruiting or they need the validation or someone to listen to him maybe. She couldn't convince Ben, her husband, so she went to her brother. Similarly with know Lori Valow, you know, Charles wasn't into this so she, she went and found validation from Alex. I don't know what it is, but both those women brought their brothers into it. Both of the happened. And then I, and I want to point this out too that I find really interesting that when she was following Julie Row, Ben took, you know, asked the bishop to help and step in, which the bishop did and, and Spring listened to the bishop. That didn't happen in Lori Valo's case. Charles tried to get the bishop's help and the bishop was not much help. They kind of said, oh, there's nothing to see here, just don't worry about it, she's fine. I don't know what that means, but I Do think that's interesting in that instance, the bishop did help with spring. That didn't seem to be the case with Lori Valo. And then the other thing I want to point out, of course is just both Julie Rowe too, you know, 2015, maybe the year is more important. 2015. Oh, and then the Braxton interview I did so this interview with Braxton, Lori Balladabel's cousin, it's a really interesting interview. On our channel, Braxton says the same thing. He says, no, we don't talk about this in Sunday school. We don't talk about this, you know, preparing during our lessons in church, we talk about it in the hallway, we pass books to one another in the hallway that we know that our like minded Mormon friends will like. And, and that's what he's also saying, that she would talk about it in the hallways and behind the scenes there's something going on. So those are just some things I want to point out. Julie Rowe, this 2015 era involving bishops, involving brothers, finding like minded echo chambers, talking about it outside of Sunday school. It's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] Yeah. And I'll just add on the one hand I'm grateful that the Mormon Church excommunicated Julie Rowe, but there's so many other people involved in that prepper movement, including Chad Dabel up until his arrest, as I understand it, including Avram Gileadi and others that have been and remain members in good standing. Again, the church probably got it right by excommunicating avram Gileadi in 93, but by 96 he's rebaptized. There is complicity on the part of the Mormon Church by allowing these prepper prophets, these prepper seers and revelators, frankly, to have so much influence and their supporters and their followers to have so much influence that they're able to grow and spread these teachings and these doctrines throughout mainstream Mormonism, all throughout the church. And being, being someone who is more on the progressive side, we know, you know, let's just say a Mormon that was in support of same sex marriage, a Mormon that was in support of the church telling truthful history, a Mormon that was in, in support of having women have more status in the church or denouncing racism. We know that the church knows how to deal with people like us, people like Sam Young who is advocating to protect children from abuse. You know, Natasha Helfer, that was advocating for sound ethically based therapy practices. You know, the church hated all that, but they knew how to handle it. They excommunicated a whole load of us and a lot of the people that followed and listened to what we did. And so we know that the church knows how to deal with this stuff because they did it. They've done it with the feminists and the liberals and the LGBT affirming Mormons. What they seem to be hesitant to do is to have the same level or the necessary crackdown on the preppers, on the doomsday Mormons. And, and so, and so I think the church sort of has responsibility here. And, and I'm going to keep harping on that because they could shut all this down, all this Rod Meldrum stuff, all this Tim Ballard O you are stuff, all this preparing of people stuff, all this Avow stuff. The church could shut it all down. Right?

Lauren Matthias [00:58:32] Yes, yes. I, I feel similarly. I'm over here nodding. I feel like oftentimes they focus on maybe the progressive Mormons more than they do the fringe, you know, the fundies as I sometimes call them for short. And, and I get it, you know, the, maybe the fundamentalists seem a little bit more loyal or they're more underground. I will say that I think that's one aspect of it. And I do want to point that out. Let's go back to Julie Rowe because this is one place, this is one place where I actually have empathy for Julie Rowe.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] Whoa.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:10] Yeah. People don't believe that I, I see something her way, but here she is. She wrote these books. Chad Dabel published them. She's on a vow. Everyone's giving her a platform, in my opinion. Well, she's self proclaimed. She has mental illness. She struggles mentally. She's been hospitalized for her mental illness. All of these men are using her. Chad's publishing her books, making more money off of her than anyone else. Avow is promoting or using her. She's, she's starting to speak. She has this tabernacle, this Rex. There's this infamous or famous however way you look at it, tabernacle meeting where Julie Rowe is speaking. It's completely full in Rexburg. You know, she's making people money. BYU Idaho caters the event and she's excommunicated. Her publisher is not excommunicated. They ban her from a vow. The day the media comes out, Chad's, you know, children and they all just ditch her and they start calling her Dark after. So I got off a little bit on Tachy. But my point is, why don't, why didn't they go after Chad Daybell, her publisher? Why didn't they go after everyone planning these events? Why did they Just focus on Julie Rowe. And I want to say, yeah, maybe. Maybe she's louder, maybe she's more out there. Maybe she posts more on social media. But I think that's a concern too, because we keep hearing over and over again that a lot of these people stay underground. They don't talk. You know, the church was okay with Tom Harrison after he said he'd stopped talking about it. But then it goes underground and it becomes this little hush hush chamber. And then they're all meeting and they're doing these conferences. That's another thing. Why. Why wasn't Christopher Avow the found? You know, the Christopher Perrette, the owner of a vow, checked out. I just think that they, they'll. They'll pinpoint Julie Rowe and they'll target Julie Rowe, but she's just a symptom. And the people that are creating the issue are left alone. Does that make sense? And I almost feel like here's a woman with mental illness that was targeted and used and then abandoned by the very people that created her. So there you go. That's one little random thing about it.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] And to bring it back to the story, I think Ben and Spring Thibodeau and Brooke Hale and Abby Snarr and Blaze and Braden, I think they're all victims. Because if the Mormon Church had really cracked down on Tom Harrison, if they'd really cracked, instead of making him a bishop when they learned that he had written visions of glory, which they did, they made him a bishop. If they had kept Avraham Gileadi excommunicated, if they had excommunicated every member of vow of vow, if they had excommunicated every member of preparing a people. Of all the Rod Meldrum stuff, of all the, you know, Tim Baller stuff,

Lauren Matthias [01:01:58] of all the people that are bringing all these people together, as you're saying, the people that are creating this. Yes.

clip [01:02:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] If the church had cracked down on all those people when they. And they did know, when they did know, then I don't think we have Spring and Brooke and Abby absconding with Blaze. I just don't think it happens.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:17] Correct. It doesn't matter if they're not. It should. The threat to the LDS Church shouldn't be people that are on social media screaming. And the loudest that the concern of the LDS Church should be the people that are being a little bit more quiet, actually, a little bit more. The people planning, the people creating these conferences, the people bringing people together.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] That's.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:41] That's something that they keep attacking the Symptom. I think that's the best way to say it. I. I feel bad, too. Spring is also a victim of this. You know, Christopher Perrette is the one emailing her early Monday morning. Right. But does anybody care?

Guest 3 [01:02:57] Yeah.

The Davidic Servant Doctrine Explained

John Dehlin [01:02:59] All right, so Max is saying, john, please touch on the Davidic Servant concept. Absolutely. That's. You read our minds. We're going to jump into that right now. Get ready, get ready, everyone, for a deep dive into the Davidic Servant idea here on Mormon Stories and on Hidden True Crime. Here we go.

clip [01:03:19] My wife Abby and their uncle all believe in this rapture and this doomsday scenario that's about to happen according to the beliefs they have. And they three made the decision that now is the time to go gather. And Blaze's role in all of this, they believe he is something called a Davidic Servant. So they felt like they need to protect him and they need. They needed to take him to this undisclosed location where he would receive his calling and understand his role in the Second Coming and the Savior's return to the earth. So that's how Blaze is involved in this. They see him as. As this Davidic servant that plays a significant role in the Savior's return.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] All right, so let's jump into what this Davidic Servant is. This stuff is. And I hadn't really dug into this much until recently, so I got onto YouTube and I found this. This really interesting YouTube channel called latter Day Disciples Podcast. There it is, lots of different familiar faces, people that we know, people that we love. And of course, if you look at the videos just recently, lo and behold, you see there, two months ago, an episode called the Davidic Servant with Avram Gileadi. All right, so now again, Mormon Church, here is somebody who's spreading preparism and the Davidic servant ideologies that you can excommunicate. Right, There she is. Latter Day Disciples podcast. We're giving you a tip. Help us help you, Mormon Church. Help us help you. Here is someone you ought to check out, have them called into their bishop instead of people like Sam Young and Natasha Helfer. Now, I. I went ahead and I watched this interview with Avram Gileadi, and we're going to play some clips from it. But before we do, I'm going to just give you all a little bit of a background on Avram Gileadi. You will hopefully be surprised to learn that his. His profile is currently on BYU's website. So here is. Here is Avraham gileadi currently on BYU's website. Says he's born in 1940, a Hebrew scholar and literary analyst specializing in the Book of Isaiah. He grew up in the Netherlands, later emigrated with his family to New Zealand as an Orthodox Jew. He studied in Israel. Then he converted to the LDS Church, baptized and moved to the United States and he married and raised a family of nine children. I should add that he is now divorced. I'm in touch with his ex wife. She has expressed a willingness to come on Mormon Stories podcast to tell a little bit more about the story really quickly. Lauren, are you. Do you find it interesting that BYU is hosting a profile of Avram Gileadi currently on their website?

Lauren Matthias [01:06:45] Yes, it is interesting especially. Yeah, fascinating. And again, he really endorses, he publicly endorses the book Visions of Glory. Again you have that on the back of your five year anniversary book. I don't have it on mine, but he endorses the book. I know from other people. He really encourages the book. It is interesting. And excommunicated. Well, I guess it was. He was baptized and re. Baptized or it was expunged. I don't know. I've heard some things. Yeah, it is very. It is very interesting to me.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] It even has his phone number there. 801-422-6975. You can call Avram Gileadi at his BYU phone number. Apparently so.

clip [01:07:26] But.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] But again, just like with Tim Ballard, like I can see the Mormon Church coming out with the press release saying we've never supported or endorsed Ivrab Giledi in any way. Lauren, you haven't seen this next slide. I typed in Avram Gileadi to the Deseret Book website. What do you think I found, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [01:07:45] I don't want to know. Surprise me. John, I'm ready.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] Eight books. Eight books. Deseret Book is selling eight books by Avraham Gileadi. Isaiah Made Simple Unsealing the Essential Isaiah End Times Prophecy. A Judeo Mormon Analysis. The literary message of Isaiah end from the beginning. Isaiah decoded windows on the prophecy of Isaiah. Apocalyptic commentary of the book of Isaiah and my personal favorite, thinking of Laurie and Chad becoming Kings and Queens of the Gentiles. What do you think, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [01:08:22] Well, for my audience that is not as familiar with Deseret Book. Deseret Book is the End All Be All. People will tell me all the time time. Look, I found this book LDS bookstore is selling Visions of Glory and I'll say that's really interesting. But it's still not despite its name. The LDS owned bookstore. The the End All Be All Bookstore that is owned by the LDS Church is Deseret book. And that's why this matters. This is the church's bookstore and they are selling all of his books. And I find some very questionable concerning titles as well. Just a lot of fear based titles there.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] Yeah. And here's a shot of the. A couple of the jackets to his books. Really quickly, I'm getting called out fairly. Corey Bell writes, she's quoting me in my call to excommunicate someone. And then he or she writes, I thought excommunication was barbaric and a 15th century answer to a 21st century problem. The truth is, you're right, Corey. I am against excommunications. I do think they're barbaric and medieval. Especially when it's people that are genuinely trying to help the church do good. People like Jeremy Runnels, Natasha Helfer, Sam Young, Leah and Cody Young. So many good, honest, kind people have been put through disciplinary council hell for simply holding up a mirror to the church, showing the church what it is, giving the church advice on how to do better. And the church, what does the church do to thank them? It excommunicates them. Now you are calling me out on hypocrisy that is valid. If I think excommunication is barbaric, why would I call for it? And I would just say this, I don't know, Lauren, what should be done with people that are advocating breaking the law, people that are advocating hysteria, people that are profiting from and advocating a mental delusion that's. That's having such significant consequences? You know, setting aside the murders and the abductions that seem to be happening all the time, and the spiritual wifery and weird polygamy things, just all the millions of dollars and inheritances and retirements that have been liquidated and sent to these prepper suppliers who are profiteering off of scaring people? Like, should those people be excommunicated? Is it barbaric to excommunicate those types of people? I mean, I don't know. Maybe, maybe excommunication is an awful thing, but the church has to do something with these people that are sowing mayhem.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:30] I have thoughts. I have thoughts here. Here's the quick rundown and then I'll get into a little bit more. I. With my faith background, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints should absolutely stop membership removal, excommunication, whatever you call it. I think we should. You know, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. I think that's what the LDS Church should do it. Might even help with some critical thinking. Being a member doesn't mean much. Nobody meets a Catholic and thinks, oh, I completely trust them because they're Catholic. But I think Mormon crime makes the news. Because when you're Mormon, you should be able to trust a Mormon because if they're a member in good standing, that means something. I don't know if it should mean that much anymore. But the point is the Church does excommunicate. And if they're going to excommunicate, then they need to get it right or remove membership. That's the new way to say it. The term excommunication is now retired. We say removal of membership. But I'll say this too, you know, on our channel on hidden true crime and I think the Mormon stories is a lot like this too. We have a, we have a philosophy when it comes to our chat. It's called scroll and roll. You don't like something, scroll, roll, keep going. When we start deleting too many comments, you know what happens? I get all these emails from people saying delete more, delete more. Well, you missed this one. Well, how could you delete so many comments and regulate the chat? But you're missing all the ones you really should be deleting. In other words, leave it to the people to figure out who they're gonna, you know, who they're gonna read, who they're gonna follow, who can listen to scroll and roll. The Church needs to stop excommunication. But the bottom line is they're not. And so they need to get it right. And until they stop it, they need to get it right. That's what I.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] Interesting. I love that. Way to thread the needle, Lauren. That's good. Thank you. Anyway, thanks to the, the viewers and listeners for calling me out. I love to be called out. Be wary of anyone that doesn't. Isn't willing to face criticism and skepticism. I'm going to quickly read something from the Isaiah Institute. So if you go to isaiinstitute.com that's Avram Gileadi's website, where he's always talking about Isaiah, end times, etc. You're going to love this, Lauren. He has a blog post from two years ago. On what? On the book Visions of Glory and he writes, this is Avram Gileadi. I assume because it's his website. The book Visions of Glory by John Pontius based on the near death experiences of Spencer, has been the cause of much division and condemnation from people who find it incredulous. Or who feel threatened by its graphic depictions of the earth's end time phase. We have now entered because of that. Soon after its publication, I compared it with the prophecies of Isaiah and discovered there were no points of conflict between it and Isaiah's end time scenario. In fact, visions of glory filled in many details in Isaiah's broader vision of the end from the beginning. What a pity then, that in the very hour visions of glory has been providing helpful, has been proving helpful in preparing people's minds and hearts for the events now upon us it is receiving renewed condemnation. Didn't the Lord warn Isaiah against this happening? Write on tablets concerning them recorded in a book for the end time as a testimony forever. They are rebellious people, sons who break faith, children unwilling to obey the law of Jehovah, who say to the seers, see not, and to those with visions predict not what is right for us, flatter us, foresee a farce. I could go on. What do you think about Avraham Gileadi's endorsement of visions of glory?

Lauren Matthias [01:15:19] It's way too close to home. We're talking like one degree of separation. Now, you know, the whole. It's not sponsored by the church. But who is sponsored by the church? Gileadi is. And who's promoting the church or who's promoting the book? Gileadi is. They're one and the same. Now. Now we're talking about a scholar at BYU that's telling everyone to read this book. How is it not sponsored by the church?

John Dehlin [01:15:43] Yeah, and he claims to be, you know, if the church is selling eight of his books as the expert in Isaiah, when the church's endorsed Isaiah expert is saying that visions of glory perfectly fulfills the prophecies of Isaiah. And by the way, that's in the Book of Mormon, too. Like a third of the whole Book of Isaiah is prophecy copied and pasted into the Book of Mormon. When we have deseret books and BYU's Isaiah expert saying that visions of glory is literally a fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy as scripture. I think I'm just repeating what you just said, but I don't know how more significant that could be.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:31] Right? I don't either.

clip [01:16:33] I don't either.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:34] Desert Book does not sell visions of glory, but they sell Gileadi visions of glory.

John Dehlin [01:16:42] All right, so now we've set up Avram Gileadi, we're going to dive into this concept of the Davidic servant, and we've got about four clips for it from the Latter Day Disciples podcast. Let's roll clip One,

clip [01:16:57] your particular topic is about the Davidic serpent. And this is a topic first off, I feel like it's not very well known this doctrine, this truth and if it is heard, it's incredibly controversial and it's consistently discredited by those who are not as familiar with the work of Isaiah and the comprehensive truth where this person is really declared throughout all of the standard works. Can you tell us a little bit about your topic and of the Davidic servant, who this person is and why it is a controversial thing to talk about them?

Guest 3 [01:17:39] Most people think any scripture, you know, chapter headings in the scriptures say it's Jesus Christ and it isn't. The chapter headings are not scripture, they're somebody's idea that they put there interpretations anyway have no place as chapter heading. That should be summaries of what the chapter says. Besides that. Yes, people get upset because of, because they have not searched in scriptures themselves and therefore they, when they haven't heard something 100 times or a thousand times before, they don't believe it. They think, I've not heard that before, that can't be true. Well, the fact is it is true. And if you truly understood Isaiah, you'd know that it was true. And not just Isaiah, but Jeremiah, Ezekiel and others also talk about this latter day David. And so does the prophet Joseph Smith. He says that the Lord would raise up one out of David's lineage by the name of David in, in the last days, you know, who, who would do basically the things that ancient David did. And one of the things he does is, is gather Israel and unite Israel. The two, the two houses of Israel, the house of Israel and the house of Judah have been divided ever since Solomon's time when they divided at that time.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] All right, so a little bit of an introduction. He kind of mocks those who don't, who don't believe in the Davidic servant concept is not really searching the scriptures. A little bit of shame. He calls the Davidic servant a latter day David. He says that Joseph Smith himself prophesied of a latter day David and that the purpose of the Davidic servant is to gather Israel and, and to unite Israel. Now we've got some other clips. Anything about that interesting to start with for you, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [01:19:26] No, it's interesting. While it's a Davidic servant, it seems very much like a messiah in ways to me. I want to point that out. Gathering of Israel.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] Some are saying it's like a John the Baptist, someone who prepares the way for a Messiah. So the Davidic servant think I'm not trying to correct you, Lauren. I'm not trying.

Lauren Matthias [01:19:46] No, I'm learning. I'm learning.

John Dehlin [01:19:47] I'm not trying to Davidic speak you, David. Explain you, Lauren. But please do think of the Davidic servant as a John the Baptist in modern times who's going to usher in Jesus's return.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:00] Okay. Okay. Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:20:03] I think, yeah. The one thing I do want to

Lauren Matthias [01:20:06] mention, one mighty and strong. Tada. Saying the one mighty and strong.

John Dehlin [01:20:10] Mighty and strong. I'm not sure maybe our viewers and listeners can correct me. I'm not sure if the one mighty and strong that I think is prophesied in the Doctrine and Covenants is the same as the Davidic servant or is different. So I'll invite. Oh, it's the same.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:26] Well, that's what I've been hearing.

John Dehlin [01:20:28] Okay, well, I'll invite our viewers and listeners to correct us if that's not true. The one thing I just want to note to people, does anybody not realize how kind of fundamentally racist this whole Israel tribes of Israel thing is? Because when Israel was this tedious. First of all, Bible scholar Dan McClellan tells us that these 12 tribes of Israel probably never existed. And by the way, he's a faithful attending Mormon church member. But Bible scholars do not universally believe that the 12 tribes ever really existed. Many believe that was written back into history for various reasons.

Avram Gileadi, Isaiah, and LDS Fringe Theology

clip [01:21:08] But.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] But let's just say that they did. Let's just say that a thousand years before Jesus was born, there was this family with Jacob and his name turned to Israel and he had 12 sons and they became God's chosen people. What about all the people in Latin America? What about all the people in Asia and China? What about all the people in Africa? None of them were a part of the twelve tribes of Israel. So did God just not care about those people? Why were they not anointed? Why were they not chosen? And just because the New Testament sits on top of the Old Testament that's built on this idea of the twelve tribes of Israel that probably never existed. Why are we perpetuating this idea that God plays favorites, that God's got one blood lineage and it is a blood lineage that he really loves and cares about and everybody else is like a Gentile or like outside the covenant. Does that not seem fundamentally problematic to anybody?

Lauren Matthias [01:22:08] No, absolutely. And then take it one step forward, you know, and then say, and you know what? Actually where the gathering is going to happen, where we're all going to be safe, is Rexburg. Throw that in there.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] Or even Independence, Missouri. It's just as ridiculous.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:21] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] Anyway, but apparently the Davidic servant is going to gather Israel. He's going to reunite all those tribes together because Jesus can't come back if those 12 tribes aren't reunited. And by the way, who identified, like, what. What meaning in modern times does. Like the tribe of Dan or the tribe of Asher or the tribe of Benjamin? Like, does anybody know what that means in 2023?

Guest 2 [01:22:51] No.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:52] Well, that's why we need Gileadi.

Guest 3 [01:22:54] I'm.

John Dehlin [01:22:54] I'm Daniel. Where do the Daniel people go? Oh, you're Nephthali. Oh, that's. They're over there. Like, what do these tribes even mean?

Lauren Matthias [01:23:05] Well, that's where we need Avram Gileadi to tell us. That's why he's a scholar.

John Dehlin [01:23:10] That's why we need the Davidic servant to tell us. Like, this is so silly. This is silly. Okay, I'm sorry. All right, should we go to the next slide? All right, we'll learn a little more here.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [01:23:24] I heard a, you know, a query from a person the other day. We said, you know, I've been raised in the church, but I always felt something was missing. And then he got into the books of my books on Isaiah or into the words of Isaiah, and the pieces started coming together. And then he started saying, well, why haven't I seen. Why haven't I known this before? Why haven't I seen this before? But that's how the Savior does it.

Video Clip 1 [01:23:47] He.

Video Clip 1 [01:23:48] He commands us to search. And we will not know what it is until we ourselves do the searching. The prophet cannot tell us what Isaiah is saying because Jesus commands it and makes an individual command for command for all of us to search the words of Isaiah. And when we do, we finally get it. And when we don't, we're left in ignorance and we object to something we haven't heard before. It's as simple as that. It boils down to, you know, not searching the words of Isaiah, not searching the Scriptures, not putting the whole scenario together, not seeing that Jesus, when he quotes Isaiah, when Nephi quotes Isaiah, it's an end time scenario. And it's not Jesus leading everything. It's his servants. His servants who are doing the leading.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] Okay, I've got so many thoughts and feelings about that, Lauren, but I want to start by asking you.

Guest 3 [01:24:40] What.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] What, if any of that hit you

Lauren Matthias [01:24:42] at all, I. I would prefer you to take it away. I was leaning in my earphones.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] Oh, is it hard to hear?

Lauren Matthias [01:24:48] My earphones quit. So he is specifically a little hard

John Dehlin [01:24:51] for me to hear, I'm sorry, I'm

Lauren Matthias [01:24:52] sorry, that's not your fault, you know,

John Dehlin [01:24:55] so I'll just say a couple things that, that really, I know when he's talking, he, he starts by saying, oh, these members of the church come to me and they're not being fulfilled by their normal church experience. In other words, the 15 prophets, seers and revelators that are like ordained to be Jesus's special witnesses, special witnesses of Christ on the earth, they're not doing it for me, right? And the church curriculum, it's not doing it for me. In seminary and institute and Sunday school and elders Quorum Relief Society, it's not doing it for me. My ministers that come to me every month, they're not doing it for me. So like right there, there are seeds of apostasy because he's talking about the Mormon Church not being enough. Now I'm going to tell you, I've had several people reach out me and tell me that Avram Gileadi has told them that he believes that the Mormon Church is corrupt from head to toe. And he actually uses the feet of clay sort of metaphor to describe the modern day corporate church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is super weird to me that the Mormon Church is selling eight of this dude's books on Deseret book when he believes that the modern Mormon Church is corrupt. And I've had multiple people report that to me, so I think that's interesting. And this, this suggests that he's saying, oh, people come to me saying, yeah, they're not getting enough, something's missing. And then he says Isaiah is where the pieces come together. Well, guess what? Who's the expert on Isaiah? Lauren, who's the expert?

Lauren Matthias [01:26:36] Gileadi.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] So he's putting himself as like he's the guy that God has put on the earth to help all the Mormons who want more, who want a better understanding. He's the guy who, that explains it. And then you heard him say it, he says that's how the Savior does it. So here Avram Gileadi is now telling us how the Savior works. And he said it, he says that's how the Savior does it. And then he goes on even more radically and he says the members need to do the searching. And he says the prophet cannot tell us. So the prophet can't tell Mormons what Isaiah means. But guess who can, Lauren? Guess who can.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:20] Avram Gileadi.

John Dehlin [01:27:21] Avram Gileadi. How is he not setting himself up as a prophet?

Lauren Matthias [01:27:25] Right?

John Dehlin [01:27:26] I am. I, I mean if you think I'm being ridiculous, Lauren, if you think I'm being ridiculous. No, but that's what I'm reading here.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:35] Yeah, no, you're right. And I want to say this too. It is true, like as someone that like values worship, like I love the idea of worship and worship however people want to worship. But I like worship. I don't want to go to church to have a lesson on Isaiah or D. Dobin. I want to go to remember the kind words of Christ, to pray, to worship, to meditate, to, to meet with friends, to sing a hymn to me. That's worship. And I also always find it frustrating when people, I think one thing that we see all the time too, I just want to bring the back is well, church is lame and I have, you know, they're not going to teach you this in church. This is special, this is better, this is more. It's always a red flag to me. I, my spidey senses always go up. That is the beginning of someone. When someone starts to say it's again it goes to the hallway thing. Spring didn't learn about this stuff in Sunday school. She learned about it in, in the hallways. You know, Lori Vallow went to friends houses. Braxton explains that they talk about this stuff in the hall, you know, in, you know, it's hush hush. That's always, always a red flag to me. But I don't look at the people passing around the books again. I don't look at the people just sharing their books and saying this is special. I look at the person who's stating I have the answers. This, you know, this is wrong and that's where we need to be looking. Those are the people that are, are frightening.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] And he's been doing this since the 70s and 80s and the Mormon church has been selling his book like hotcakes. The only other thing, Lauren, I wanted to add and I loved your comment and I love the fact that you're an actively attending Latter Day Saint. How do you feel about him basically saying that the members of the church who don't study Isaiah like he does are quote, left in ignorance. Lauren, how does it feel to be left behind by Avram Gileadi and Spring Thibodeau and you know, Brook Hale? How does it feel to be left in ignorance, you know, by, by these scholars of Israel, of Isaiah?

Lauren Matthias [01:29:50] Well, I would just like right now to do a shout out to Avraham Gileadi and say just try me. Let's do Isaiah. Let's do an Isaiah trivia and See who win. Kidding. I would absolutely lose. Isaiah is something I've avoided my entire life. I know nothing about Isaiah. But. But right. That is, it is a very manipulative thing to say, like, oh my gosh, I don't know about Isaiah. You know, I leaned to you, I said, I said, john, you're going to have to teach me. Avran, you're going to take the, the Davidic servant. You're going to take Isaiah. Because this is not something I'm familiar with. And yes, that is also a red flag. And as a channel, I want to say this too. We are a channel that talks about crime, true crime. And this is very important when it comes to crime to all my listeners. We talk about red flags. What is it that creates a criminal? What are the things that are so subtle that people don't see again and again and again? And it's a very manipulative tactic to kind of put yourself out there as I know all the answers and to make the person feel dumb. You're ignorant. I'm ignorant because I would lose to Abram Gileadi in an Isaiah match. You know, so a trivia match. But yeah, no, it's, it's a very manipulative tactic.

clip [01:31:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] And Lauren, this came out, you know, we talked about how with Chad Dabel and with Julie Rowe and with Tom Harrison claiming to have a near death experience and then claiming to get special, you know, divine powers from your near death experience. We, we summed it up a couple weeks ago. It's a power grab, right?

Lauren Matthias [01:31:27] It's an absolute power grab.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] And I think, I think what Avram Gileadi is doing here is he's saying Isaiah is the most important scripture in all of scripture. That's why the Book of Mormon quotes so much of it. You know, you're, you're a fool and you're ignorant and woe be unto you if you don't know it. And I'm the guy that can crack the code for you, right?

Lauren Matthias [01:31:50] It's a power grab.

John Dehlin [01:31:51] Avraham Gilead. It's a total power grab. And he doesn't just, he doesn't just say that. You, you Mormons, like you, Lauren, that don't study Isaiah are left in ignorance. He goes on to quote Scripture and he says, woe be unto those not searching Isaiah. And you know, he's basically playing on the fears. And so when I think about, again, when I think about this cast of characters that we started out with, right. Again, they're victims. Their lives are in the crapper. They're not loving their lives. But here comes Avram Gileadi to say, hey, I can help you have special knowledge. I can help you leave the rest of your fellow members behind and leave them in the dust. And I can unlock for you the special secrets of the end times. And maybe even you'll be one of the special people that either becomes the Davidic servant or helps us locate the Davidic servant. And that's where Avraham Gileadi, by perpetuating this idea and these teachings, is absolutely complicit in so much of this prepper mayhem that we're decrying. Avram Gileadi along with Tom Harrison are right there at ground zero, in my view.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:10] Yeah, And I think it's more concerning too, when. Let's use Julie Rose, an example, because we've talked about her. There's no question. Julie Rose, pulling a power grab when she gets on her TikTok or YouTube channel explains, look, it's no secret that my powers are better than Chad's. And I'm not bragging. I just have to let you know that I have really intense powers. And it's a power grab we all know. I think that's why we can all talk about Julie Rowe. I think it's very clear to the majority of people that Julie Rowe wants to be in power and probably thinks that she's the Davidic servant. But when it comes to the more subtle power grabs, that's where I'm concerned. As someone that continues to see these Mormon LDS prepper crimes and things that are happening that are very worrisome to me. It's, it's the subtle power grabs that I really do think that need to be addressing. Everyone said to me, Chad is so humble. Chad Dabel. Chad is such a just understated guy. This, you know, it always. Again, I, you know, my spidey senses the red flags. It's always concerning. So thank you for pointing that out.

John Dehlin [01:34:14] Yeah, this stuff fires me up, you know, because I'll just say this, Lauren, you cover true crime, and one of the reasons I really adore you and Dr. John and your program is because you want to get to the root of what's going on. You're not just trying to be exploitative and just talk about the blood and the gore and the violence. I was on a major national YouTube channel just a few weeks ago where they wanted me to talk about Jody Hildebrand. And what I wanted to talk about was how the Mormon Church has pathologized normative sexual behavior. And how that creates therapists like Tom Harrison and Jody Hildebrandt. And, and so you know what?

Lauren Matthias [01:34:58] They were able to talk about it. Were you able to talk about it?

John Dehlin [01:35:00] Oh, I talked about it for 20 minutes and then they never aired the episode.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:04] That's what I mean, that's what I was like, how did it go?

John Dehlin [01:35:07] Yeah, because they don't want to talk about the roots.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:10] Right. And that's what someone that's been in the news business, I was like, oh, how'd that go? Right.

John Dehlin [01:35:15] You called it. Yeah. And so I. That's what we're doing here. That's what you do on Real True Hidden True Crime. And that's what we're doing here. We're not just talking about the scandal of the relationships. And we want to talk about what's behind it.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:30] And, and that's this isn't exactly, this isn't just a salacious story that we. And then this happened. And then this happened. We want to be able to help. And. Yeah, I agree. And that's why. Thank you for teaming up with me, John. I agree. And. And every week a new LDS story is coming out. So thank you for addressing this.

John Dehlin [01:35:52] All right, let's go to the third

Guest 3 [01:35:53] clip and last thing on that. Your question, Megan Long answer is, you know, the servant is hidden from the world. He says it right there in Isaiah 49, that he's hidden from the world like a arrow hidden in the Lord's quiver. And so it is going to be a surprise when he comes along. And that's by design, because the Lord's going to test people like he tested the Jews when Jesus came. They were not expecting their own Lord Messiah to be coming in the person of Jesus Christ. No way. And why weren't they, if I understood the Scriptures, because they, because they were leading hypocritical lives. And so are we. If we don't understand these things, even they're told to us that we're leading hypocritical lives by claiming that we're this, that, and the other. When we're not keeping the Jesus, Jesus kilometer search or, you know, doing being engaged in those things that we ought to be engaged in, otherwise we'll never know our role. And when our role needs to be fulfilled, that of Ephraim as a, you know, the birthright tribe, then it'll pass us by. And if we're not saviors of the house of Israel, the Jews, the ten tribes and the Lamanites of today will be assaulted as us as savor it's. As simple as that. So it's really very simple and plain and the answers are all there. You care to know them?

John Dehlin [01:37:17] All right, so I don't know, Lauren, if you were able to hear that, but I'm just going to repeat a couple of things that I heard. The first, tell me if this is mind blowing to you as it relates to this case. What do you, what do you think about hearing this idea that the servant must be hidden?

Lauren Matthias [01:37:35] I know, that's really, really interesting to me.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] Tell our viewers and listeners how that relates to, to Blaze.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:44] Well, that they, they took Blaze and they hit him. I mean a Davidic servant. The Davidic servant is, is who Spring and Abby and Brook Hale believed. They believed that was Blaze. Blaze. Blaze was the Davidic servant even though Blaze didn't want to be it. Usually I'm, and I want to say this too. I'm used to the, the Davidic servant being this power grab thing. Chad Daybell thought he was a Davidic servant. Every year, every few years, it's been like every three months these days, you know, a new person that says I'm the Davidic servant comes out. It's really interesting to me that they decided that he was the, the blaze. This young 16 year old was the Davidic servant. Not them, not Brooke, not, you know, Spring, but Blaze. This boy who doesn't want anything to do with this prepper group, he is the hidden Davidic servant. And then they took him away and nobody knew where he was. And they were going to keep him hidden, right?

clip [01:38:42] They were going to.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] The whole reason they're going to Canada and Alaska is to hide Blaze Thibodeau.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:49] It's wild. And how are, and I want to point this out too, which is frightening to me. How are they going to hide a six foot, you know, 160 pound football

Guest 2 [01:38:57] player,

Lauren Matthias [01:38:59] you know, and that's what his dad brought up too. Were they gonna drug him? Were they gonna tie him up like. I don't know or maybe, you know, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:39:07] They're gonna hide this guy. They're gonna hide him. They're gonna hide him from the world. Hide Blaze? Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's interesting. This idea that it must be hidden is what drove Spring and Abby and Brooke to take freaking Blaze to, to Alaska. I'm sure without adequate preparation. Right? I mean, is there any, is there any doubt they weren't prepared to live in Alaska during the winter. Hiding, Hiding Blaze.

Guest 2 [01:39:38] Right?

Lauren Matthias [01:39:39] And it doesn't, it does not matter how prepared you are, you know, and how much money you've spent on white tents. Alaska in the winter time, they were going up there in the winter, at the beginning of winter, they. That, like, it's not even like how many daylight hours you even get. That is. That is not, in my opinion, survivable for a few. A few people from Arizona.

John Dehlin [01:40:02] Yeah. In addition, Avram Gileadi talks about everyone needing to know their role. Now, this is interesting because when people lead, when these Mormons who are having bad marriages, having financial struggles, when they fall on hard times and life is starting to get really crappy for them, this idea of, hey, if you study Isaiah, if you learn about the end times, you can learn your role. And once you learn your role, you can have a special role to play in preparing the earth for the Second coming. Isn't that kind of what Chad and Lori were thinking and feeling? Isn't that what Tom Harrison thinks? Like, isn't that what Julie Rowe thinks? Isn't that how all these prepper personalities and all this prepper mayhem ends? Is everybody thinking they've got this special purpose to usher in the second Coming and they've got a role to play and they're seeing visions and they're getting special powers? It's like nurturing mental illness. It's like nurturing multiple personality disorder or schizophrenia and teaching them that their dreams are real. It just seems like this idea of. Of nurturing, the idea that everybody can be special and has a role to play in the end times, when, again, they're from Burley. You know what I mean?

Lauren Matthias [01:41:31] Correct. Correct. I think that that's exactly what's going on here, and that's exactly why we're doing this episode, is it wasn't. There's a symptom that's happening again and again and again. Chad and Lori Blades on and on and on. Who is perpetuating, who is validating, who is telling people, who is teaching this again and again and again. And I want to point this out, too. As someone who does know a lot about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as someone who doesn't think that I'm ignorant, I might not be able to tell you what Isaiah means. And I have a lot of questions about the Book of Revelation, but I think I'm, you know, I have a good solid grasp on. On the beliefs and the theology of the Mormon Church. I was listening to him and really, it felt like word salad to me. I felt dumb. I did not know what he was saying. I was confused. And then he was telling me That I needed to know this, that I needed to know my place. It was. That speech I just want to bring up again was very. It was very minimizing to me. Like, I feel very lost. And so when these are the people that are the scholars and they're telling you how this is going to go and they're going to tell you that you're powerful, think of that too. A scholar or an author telling you you're the powerful one when you already are not a healthy human being or you have struggles, or you have fears, or you have paranoia. It's just adding fuel to that fire. And I think that that's what's really important here. And that's what we've continued to see again and again and again for years now. We see this pattern. It's not the people that are committing the crimes necessarily. They need to be held accountable. They're guilty. They need to be held accountable. But who is validating them behind the scenes over and over again? Who is telling them that they deserve power? They need power. Give them power. Make them think they're the Davidic servant.

How Extremist Beliefs Exploit Vulnerable People

John Dehlin [01:43:23] It's just, yeah, you can be. You can be in financial hard times, in a bad marriage, in Blackfoot or Rigby, Idaho, and all of a sudden Avram Gileadi will inspire you to believe that you're going to become a savior on Mount Zion, ushering in the second coming of Jesus. Who's not going to buy that hook, line and sinker.

clip [01:43:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:43:45] But it's a con. It's a whether or not they believe it. He's manipulating and abusing people by. By sowing delusions of grandeur into the brain and teaching them that dreams are truth. Dreams aren't truth. Dreams are dreams. They're literally subconscious, you know, generative ramblings of your brain. They're not truth. Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:11] They're not truth. They are never true. They can tell us about what's on our minds. You know, maybe. Oh, really had that dream.

Guest [01:44:17] Cool.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:18] But they're not truth and they're not visions.

John Dehlin [01:44:20] Yeah, yeah. And then he ends again, just to play, just to reiterate the last thing he said there, he talks about the salt that's lost its savor again. It's a very demeaning sort of. If you're a Mormon, but you don't obsess about the end times in Isaiah and the second coming. Well, you're the salt that's lost its savor again. It's a very demeaning sort of way to frame it. Maven wants Me to play this clip about survival skills really quick.

clip [01:44:49] We don't think they're hunkered down in the mountains. It's none of them like the cold. They're not outdoorsy people, so they don't have survival skills. Yeah, they're. They're not survival people that way.

John Dehlin [01:45:07] Like. Like, a lot of people were worried that I. I think you were probably worried that Brooke was armed and that maybe he could have, you know, committed some sort of violence against Blaze.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:19] Yeah, I was worried.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] But another worry is that they would just die by frostbite in the middle of Alaska with zero. With zero survival skills.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:29] Right, right, right. Yeah. How long. Where were they gonna get food? You know?

John Dehlin [01:45:33] Yeah, Food, shelter, you know, unless they

Lauren Matthias [01:45:36] took their buckets of wheat with them, you know, then they could grind it.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] All right, let's go to the fourth clip with Avram.

clip [01:45:45] I love how you said earlier about how the book of Isaiah reveals patterns. And in the Doctrine and Covenants, we read how the Lord gives us patterns so that we won't be deceived. And I think that it's an interesting aspect of potentially a veil of unbelief that is largely over us as members of the church that we don't seem to believe that the Lord will raise up a prophet the likes of Moses, the likes of Joseph Smith, a John the Baptist who prepares the way for the Savior. And yet the Scriptures are replete with this pattern of a deliverer who comes, who offers physical salvation, who reveals, records and translates them by the power of God. And I think, as you said, if we had an understanding of the Scriptures and if we looked at them with an eye of faith, it would seem logical that the Lord will raise up someone in a similar fashion to do that work in the last days. There is.

John Dehlin [01:46:46] Okay, can I just. Laurie, can I just ask you, like, don't we. Don't Mormons believe they have a prophet?

Guest 3 [01:46:52] Like.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:53] Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

John Dehlin [01:46:54] Is it at all bizarre to you that these active, faithful Mormons are saying our church is boring, it doesn't have what we need, but the Lord will raise up a prophet to deliver us. What about.

Guest 2 [01:47:08] No, it is.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:09] That was very odd to me. I'm like, the entire thing is. Yeah. The entire premise of the LDS Church is that prophets are now back on earth with the authority to act in God's name. But, you know, they're not. They're not, I guess, parting the Red Sea. They're not Moses enough.

Guest 2 [01:47:27] Thus.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:27] Yeah, we need something a little less vanilla. We give us Something more. I want to point out something she said. She said a lot. I just kept getting stranger and stranger. But this idea of patterns, I do want to point that out. The first thing she said was, she said, you teach us, Gileadi, that we, the Lord gives us patterns so that we won't go astray. Dr. John Matthias, my John, my co host, my husband, I talk a lot about patterns and the need for patterns. Julie Rose, really big into patterns. Chad Daba and Lori Ballow were really big into patterns. And we discuss how people want the world to make sense. And the bottom line is the world doesn't make sense. You know, we can't control what happens to us. We can't control how the world changes and people change and society change and we want the world to make sense. And people will often look to patterns desperately in a desperation for the world to make sense, when really there isn't even a pattern there. So I find it really interesting that Gileadi is actually perpetuating this idea of patterns. No, the Lord is giving us patterns so that we don't go astray. Everyone of this sort of visionary preppers is always looking to patterns. Julie Rose, looking to patterns. And I just want to point that out. I think that's a concern to me. Guess what? There isn't always a pattern. Sometimes we desperately want to see patterns when patterns aren't there because we want it to make sense. But you know what? A lot of times there just isn't a pattern and nothing's going to make sense. And when we spend all our days looking at patterns, that actually is not helpful at all. And it's actually what probably got this group to go to Alaska was a fake pattern that they believed was from the Lord. So although that was something very small, she said, I want to bring that up. That's very concerning to me. You know what?

Guest 2 [01:49:22] There aren't.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:23] There aren't a lot of patterns. There's evidence, there's facts, there's emotions. But that doesn't have to mean there's some pattern that the Lord needs us to see. But that was just barely a mention. I had to just go on that tangent.

John Dehlin [01:49:36] No, that's great. There was a quote, Ashley, Ashley wrote, why do these people need this crap to be real? They need better hobbies. I was watching, I was watching a TikTok clip with Richard Dawkins and he was saying that when they put pigeons in these little Skinner boxes to do, you know, these behaviorist sort of experiments where they, you know, give them pellets and they eat the pellets or they peck on the, the lever that releases the pellet. And they did this experiment where they would just randomly release the pellets to a bunch of pigeons, but not have it match any pattern or any behavior on the pigeon's part. And what they noticed was that one pigeon would like put his elbow in the ground and go in circles. Another would peck the corner of the cage. Another one would flap its wings three times. And what they realized is that whatever the pigeon was doing when it got the pellet, the pigeon would then repeat that behavior, thinking that repeating that behavior would make the next pellet come. And the point is, just as, not just as humans, but as animals, we see patterns just when there are none. Because like you said, Lauren, it helps the world make sense. Because it's not fun to think that things are random, that there's no divine power, that everything's chaotic, and that we could die or get sick at any time. So it makes sense, but it does feed. Again, mental illness. Maven made the point in the behind chat, behind the scenes chat that pattern seeking is a huge indicator of all conspiracies, numerology. Right. Signs of the times. Oh, you know, oh, there's a war in Israel. Like, there hasn't been wars in Israel every decade for the past 120 years. There, there has been like, oh, there's earthquakes. Like there aren't earthquakes every year. Oh, there's hurricanes. Like, there aren't hurricanes every single year. But, but somehow people think that, that these patterns somehow are, are meaningful evidence.

Patterns, Signs of the Times, and Dangerous Conclusions

Lauren Matthias [01:51:54] They refer to patterns as evidence and they take off to Alaska or they kill their children. I mean, it's really bad what people do.

John Dehlin [01:52:01] So I'll just say this, this dumb Arab Israeli conflict, this Palestine Israel conflict in the Gaza Strip right now, it's not helpful to this, this prepper problem. Like they have their own problems.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:15] Part of it.

John Dehlin [01:52:16] Yeah, yeah. It's not their job to worry about us. They've got their own stuff to worry about. But it's not helping Mormon doomsday preppers. I'll just say that.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:24] No.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] And again, just to touch on a couple more points, not only is the Lord going to raise up a new prophet outside of the quorum of the 15, right. But they're going to be a deliverer that's going to create new records and translate the hidden sealed plates. So they're not just looking for a new delivering prophet, they're looking for new scripture. So it's our, you know, there's this Guy Namelka, Christopher Nomelka. There have already been Mormons emerging, claiming to have translated sealed portions of the plates.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:02] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] But that's gonna, that's certainly, that's gonna come in these doomsday Mormon preppers in the future as well. Right. People claiming.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:11] To be translating plates.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:13] Right. And since, since we're doing, since we're on this podcast and you brought him up, I just want to say if anybody, he's a bad dude. Kristen Melka. I'll just say that. I'm saying that. So, yeah, don't listen to him.

John Dehlin [01:53:26] Be careful.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:27] Another one. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:29] All right, I'm gonna go ahead and play the last clip we have from Avram Gileadi talking about the Davidic servant and then we'll finish the story.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [01:53:38] Right, Megan, It's a good question too, asking really great questions. Well, you know, this not just in the Old Testament, I'm going to mention, you know, like Black Elk speaks. Black Elk was a visionary. There were Native American visionaries who saw the coming of this person. In his case, it was likened to a black horse. And there were six grandfathers and which I interpret to be dispensation leaders and four sets of 12 horses from the north, south, east and west. And the black horse came at the end. I think he was the seventh grandfather and gathered all the elect, basically, as Jesus says in Matthew 24, from around the world and led them to the happy hunting ground with the millennial age. But yeah, to your question about the false Christ, I don't think very many people are coming along who claiming to be Jesus Christ, but we've already seen quite a few false claimants of being a latter day David. And basically it's more par for the course because it tells us where they are, you know, that, that, that is, those are the people that, that are going to be the false Christ and false prophets. They try to be this messianic figure which the servant is. So he's not himself the Messiah. He is a messianic person, as Joseph Smith was a messianic person. And they're going to be counterfeits that come along. And because of that we get a bad, we get a bad rap about the servant himself, which is not, you know, you can't pin that onto this on the, the idea that the idea of the servant is in Isaiah, it's in the Scriptures. It's the words of Jesus Christ. He himself talks about the servant in 3 Nephi 21. And again, people misinterpret that saying. Joseph Smith, no, it's Not. It's not. It's an end time scenario. Aren't you reading the text? But you know he's quoting. No, they just want to get it wrong each time. If they haven't done the searching, they will get it wrong and they will run with what they know, what they perceive, because they haven't searched themselves and they will end up in a bad place. But yeah, so the false Christ are coming. Likely impostors of the latter day David. And we've already seen enough of them to know that. Hey, this is beginning to be almost like a phenomenon today. Yeah. Kind of funny when you think about it, because these.

Video Clip 2 [01:56:05] Yeah, it is somewhat ironic.

Video Clip 2 [01:56:09] No clue what they're talking about.

Video Clip 2 [01:56:10] Yeah, it's a challenging role and if someone wants to take that on, I don't know if they really understand the bad that's going to come with that as well as the good, but I can attest to that. I've had run ins with people who believe that they are this David as well. And it's. It definitely requires an eye and a heart for discernment.

John Dehlin [01:56:31] Just. Oh, my gosh. Lauren, any. Any reactions?

Lauren Matthias [01:56:35] Well, that last. That last line was gold. I was like, wait, what? She goes, yeah, I've definitely run into people that think they're the Davidic Servant, but so I know what it takes is an eye and, you know, discernment for me to really know if they really are or aren't the Davidic servant. I want you to know that in my. My life, I have never ran into someone publicly. I mean, I've now seen things on YouTube and studied crimes where people claim. But I have never ran into anyone that has told me they're the Davidic Servant. I'll just. I don't know about you, John. Have you?

John Dehlin [01:57:12] Probably. Yeah, definitely.

clip [01:57:14] Really?

Lauren Matthias [01:57:14] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] So, in fact, I've heard people say that Avram has told them secretly that he believes he's the one mighty and strong or the Davidic service.

Lauren Matthias [01:57:26] Yes, I've. I've heard many people just. But as far as the I have never game goes, I've lost. You just won. Because I. That's never happened to me. Someone telling me, oh, yeah, by the way, I'm the Davidic servant.

John Dehlin [01:57:40] Yeah, well, I just thought it was just so hilarious that they're both acknowledging that almost every Mormon, doomsday prepper, Tom, Dick and Harry ends up believing that they're the Davidic Servant, that they're emerging everywhere like popcorn popping on an apricot tree and they're counterfeits and Avram called it funny. I wonder how funny Blaise Thibodeau thinks it is that these latter, latter day false Latter day Davids are popping up everywhere. And I wonder how anyone ever, any Mormon, ever, can believe in a gift of discernment by anybody. How can anybody ever in 2023 believe in this magic gift of discernment when there's the opposite is true? People are being fooled all the time into believing that because they had some vision or some dream or some prayer with some feeling that they interpret it as God's will, that somehow they have some sort of knowledge about what's going to happen in the end times. I think that's. Epistemologically, that's one of the most insidious things I've said jokingly that I think it should be illegal for anyone to claim that they've spoken to God or have any divine access to God because it's too much power. As soon as you either believe that your thoughts are from God or. Or that somebody else has spoken to God because they've claimed it, then all of a sudden you're vulnerable to either the abuses of your own derangement or the abuses of some predator. And we just need to stop claiming that any of us have access to God or Jesus or to visions that tell us the future. It should be something like illegal because it's too much power for any one person to have, in my opinion.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:38] Yeah. The teaching of visions and dreams, which is a big part of this community, is very. Is very concerning to me because even spring. Spring started having visions. Abby started having visions. And those could have been dreams. And they teach. Oh, I have it right here. Look at this. Let's see. I have a blur on my screen. But, like, let me just show you what they're teaching. I'll remove my. I'll remove my virtual background for just a second. Let's see.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] No, we can see it.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:05] Can you see it? Let's see.

John Dehlin [02:00:07] Yeah. Dreams and visions.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:09] This is taught. This was taught at the Preparing to People. It's a textbook for dreams and visions, and it's how to have them. It's a workbook. It's a workbook. It was a class taught. And I mean, look at this. Look right here. Right there. Overcoming unbelief about dreams and visions. It's like grooming limits how the Lord works in our lives. Like, it's like grooming.

John Dehlin [02:00:32] It's like grooming people into derangement or grooming them into becoming susceptible to the abuse of predators. Really?

Lauren Matthias [02:00:40] Yes, yes. Yes, it is. And Abby, you know when you start wondering and you start becoming. So I see this. This is upsetting me, what he is teaching about patterns. Patterns are from the Lord. No, they're not. Patterns are what make us more like pigeons. You know, visions and dreams are something you need to believe, and if you don't, you're not believing the Lord. No, visions and dreams get us into trouble. Like if we start believing, you know, you know that, oh, that dream I had that my husband left me is a vision. We've got problems. You know what I mean? Like we did. I didn't have that dream. We're good.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] Well, my dream, that that other woman that I'm hot for needs to be my wife, and then my current wife is going to pass away really soon.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:22] Right, right, right. On and on and on. When you have a dream that you're the Davidic servant, you know, Chad Daybell and his visions, you know, he made money off of them. You know, it just. Yeah, this is a problem.

John Dehlin [02:01:35] Yeah. And. And to bring it back to the Mormon Church and the root cause, one of the reasons the Mormon Church has such a hard time clamping down on these people is that dreams and visions are core to Mormon theology and core to Mormon spirituality. Joseph Smith had a vision, saw God, and Jesus had the first vision, was told to start the church in the, in the, in the Mormon Church's Articles of Faith that says, we believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, and in the interpretation of tongues. Etc. Every. Everyone who either is a missionary or listens to a missionary is taught. Pray about it and you'll receive a confirmation through the gift of the Holy Ghost, a feeling that comes into your brain or enlightenment or light that comes in that tells you something is true. And again, our leaders are called prophets. They prophesy seers, they see into the future and they see in the seer stones. And then revelators, they reveal what's coming. So the Mormon Church is unfortunately or fortunately completely bound and wed to this idea of dreams and visions and the like. And so they can't denounce it because as soon as they denounce it, they're denouncing not just their core theology, their core sense of spirituality and epistemology. They're undermining their own founding with, with their, with their prophet, Joseph Smith. And that's the pickle the Mormon Church is in.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:19] Origin story.

Guest 2 [02:03:20] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:20] You can't escape an origin story. And.

Guest [02:03:22] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:24] No, it's true. You know, and. Yeah, here, here.

Guest [02:03:28] Agree.

John Dehlin [02:03:29] Yeah. All Right. Well, just to show you, you know, these are some, these are some screenshots that it were shared with me from the Firm Foundation Expo. There's our buddy Avram Gileadi, who's 2, can you see who's 2 photos under Avram Gileadi?

Lauren Matthias [02:03:48] Yes, that's. There's Roger K. Young.

John Dehlin [02:03:50] That's our buddy Roger Young. Tell us who that is.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:53] Roger K. Young is the founder of avow. And from my personal research, I believe that he is the creator and the sort of the person that really pushed the idea of the call out for many in this community, where the call out is the belief that those that are extra prepared, super prepared enough, will be. The Latter Day Saints that are the most prepared will be called out by prophets to build up the tent cities. This is not something that's taught in church. This is something that a vow teaches a lot. And, and my research takes me back to Roger K. Young on that. And then he sold a vow to Christopher Perrette.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] But what's crazy is that these conferences are being held every year in Ogden, in Salt Lake, in Sandy, in Provo, right under the noses of the top Mormon church leadership. But by the way, who's that buddy in the top right? Who's that photo of?

Lauren Matthias [02:04:48] Tim Ballard. Tim Ballard.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] Ballard. There's Rod Meldrum there. Okay, that's just one. Here's another one. There's Avram Gileadi down at the bottom right. The Firm Foundation Expo. There's Rod Meldrum, Avram Gileadi. There's Tim Ballard again. Like all these people run the same circles, but it gets even darker, it turns out. I don't know if you knew this, Lauren. I'm about to blow your mind. Have you ever heard of the name Brian David Mitchell?

Lauren Matthias [02:05:16] Yes, I have.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] You ever heard of the name Elizabeth Smart?

Lauren Matthias [02:05:20] Yes, I have.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] Did you know there's a connection there?

Lauren Matthias [02:05:24] Someone wrote me today. But there's been so many emails. Tell me, tell me.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] Yeah, so Brian David Mitchell was a, was a self proclaimed prophet who abducted Elizabeth Smart out of her home and, and raped her for, for way too long. If you read one of the legal filings related to the case of the United States of America versus Brian David Mitchell. Go to the second page. I'm going to read you clauses 4, 6 and 7. It's talking about a testimony from a witness, Sterling Allen. And the witness, Sterling Allen testifies the following about Brian David Mitchell, Bullet number four. Among other things, the American Study Group, which, which Brian David Mitchell was a part of, emphasized the teachings of President Estrad Benson, the study of the Book of Isaiah, the works of LDS scholar Avram Gileadi, and the ideas of patriot movement leaders like Bo Gryitz and Lindsey Williams. Anyway, that's bullet number four. Bullet number six. The American Study Group regularly discussed the ideas that the mainstream LDS Church was out of order. Nearly all the members of the American Study Group believed that one mighty and strong would put the church back in order. Most members also believed in polygamy and believed that polygamy would be restored when the church was set in order. Mr. Allen did not personally believe in polygamy. And then number seven. During his association with thousands in the Mormon fringe, Mr. Allen has encountered approximately 200 people who consider themselves to be the one mighty and strong. At one time, Mr. Allen believed that he himself might be the one mighty and strong. I'm also going to add that I've spoken with Avram Gileadi's ex wife. She claims that one of the reasons Avram Gileadi was excommunicated was because he was practicing spiritual wifery. We have also reported that several people have reported to us that Tom Harrison, the author of the original, author of Visions of Glory, apparently recruited women to be his spiritual wives. That's what's been reported to me and other people. And so again, as dark as this is, we don't want to blame everything on Avram Gileadi. But, but again, here's a quote. Mitchell and you know, Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee claim to have received angelic visitations and revelations. And there in the bottom, it says one. One source of their inspiration was the literary message of Jude of Isaiah by Avram Gileadi. So there it is. I don't know what else to say. He's associated with so many dark and diabolical and evil things. Is this parallelism? I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:31] No, I know, right. That's a great question. Is it parallelism? But it's concerning nonetheless. You don't hear them saying they're influenced by Sam Young or John de Lynn or Lauren Matthias. So, you know, is it parallelism?

Guest [02:08:48] Maybe.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:49] Is it, is it, you know, obscure? I, you know, I, I don't know, but, but I, but I guess would have happened again and again and again. And all the crimes that we're seeing the LDS people are a part of these days, which is a lot. You know, again, I don't want to keep covering LDS crimes. As I always say, unfortunately, they're creating content. Unfortunately, there's enough that we have to dive deep into this, that. Here we are tonight on a Monday doing an episode do again. You know, we, I, I just, I, to belabor this point. Maybe I'm belaboring. But like the progressives, you know, they, they want gay marriage, gay temple marriage, you know, among many other things. The, the extreme fundamentalist crowd want their things too and they want us to go back to their, to the roots of Mormonism. And you know, they don't want things to change and, but who's committing the crimes?

The Church's Failure to Denounce Extremism

John Dehlin [02:09:52] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:09:53] Where are people getting hurt? Where people. I mean, there's no worse probably Mormon crime I can think of right now. Well, there are a lot. So maybe let's stop comparing and thinking. But the Elizabeth Smart crime just sends. It's just horrendous. It's horrendous. There's so many. I am sorry. I even tried to compare every, Everyone, everything is just horrendous. But that, you know, to think that that might have been inspired. That crime is just horrendous.

John Dehlin [02:10:23] Yeah. And I'll just say the Mormon Church knows what to do with Avram Gileadi. It knows what to do with the Firm Foundation. It knows what to do with Rod Meldrum. It knows what to do with, you know, Tim Ballard and Operation Underground Railroad with a vow, with preparing a people with Roger Young, you know, with, with Christopher, what's his name, Brett. Like the Mormon Church knows what to do with all these people. It knows how to shut down organizations. It knows how to excommunicate leaders. It knows how to make public announcements from General Conference and from its, its website, from its church newsroom. It knows how to deal with this. Why is it not doing anything about this?

Lauren Matthias [02:11:10] Is it going to be a problem too, though? I want to say this. You know, it's going to be a problem. So I just want to point this out if you know, this, this Blaze Thibodeau story is huge. That's why we're talking about it. It's important if they go in the, you know, remove springs membership to say, see, we took care of it. That's not taking care of the problem. And I guess that's what I want to drive home. Spring is a symptom of a bigger problem. She is guilty of a crime, felonies and she's behind bars. She is. She is also a victim, as you point out to people perpetuating this again and again and again. There, there is a bigger issue at play and so is it. And I don't have the answer. I'm not going to pretend I have the answer. If I had the answer, I'd just go shout it and we'd be done with this episode. I think we're trying to discuss it, see, see the possibilities. But do they need to denounce the firm Expo. Do they, do they need to say denounce the conferences? Do they need to denounce this extreme prepping the book Visions of Glory? I don't know. But they are not getting to the root of the problem. And it's happening again and again and again and at more frequent, frequent rates.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] I'm dying to see, just like how the Mormon Church removed Tim Ballard's books from Deseret Book. I'm wondering how long it's going to take them to remove Avram Gileadi's books from Desert Book or if they're going to leave them up. Like, it'll be really, it'll be really interesting to see. All right, Maven. Maven included a clip from a really awesome YouTube channel called Hidden True Crime. Let's play a little bit of that next. Because you even comment on this.

Lauren Matthias [02:12:53] Yeah, let me explain this. This book, Visions of Glory, is about a Davidic servant, Chad Daybell. Eric Smith, Chad Daybell's friend, has stated that Chad believed that he was the Davidic servant. Now Brooke Hale, the uncle of Blaze the Bodu, is stating that he was a Davidic servant and that they are going someplace to an undisclosed location.

John Dehlin [02:13:16] And then we can go ahead and play the next, the next clip because I think it's, I think it's related.

Guest [02:13:22] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:25] According to Ben, Spring began participating in energy healing sessions and Ben became concerned. Okay, full stop right there. Let's go back to 2015. This starts in 2015. What was happening in 2015? Julie Rowe was writing her books that were being published by Chad Daybell and Visions of Glory. So let me lay it out to you. Visions of Glory as told by John Pontius is, is. Are the visions of a man named Tom Harrison. Tom Harrison, I know for a fact, met with Chad and Julie Rowe. He states to many people privately, in private, that his book is true. It's about the second coming of Christ. It was written in 2000 or published in 2000. Was it 12 or 13 by Cedar Fort Publishing? Chad Daybells 2012. Chad Dabel's once publisher, he left to do Spring Creek Publishing. And in this book, this book was very, very popular among the Energy Healing Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. Chad Daybell Group Julie Rowe Group. I'm going to share some additional information that you guys have not heard in this live. So stick with me here. Julie Rowe was really popular and she was getting into energy healing. And this is all within the LDS Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints circle.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] All right, tell us, tell us what we should know about that.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:04] I see a pattern. How about this? I see evidence of a pattern. Like actual evidence. We'll throw the word evidence in there. That matters.

clip [02:15:19] You.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:19] We have a. We have a book, Visions of Glory. I guess I. I won't repeat myself, but this book is. This book is creating the same scenario over and over again. This book teaches many things. Go watch John's podcast. Go watch our podcast to learn about the book, why this book is problematic. They love the book. We know that they read the book. Avram Gileadi recommends the book. Chad and. And Julie Rowe loved the book. Lori loved the book. Chad and Julie Rowe even met with Tom Harrison in his office. People are reading this book. It talks about the second coming. It talks about being prepared. It tells everyone they've got to be ready. Auburn's talking about it. I want to throw out Christopher Perret again. Is thou telling people also he's sending emails telling people, hey, be careful.

Guest 2 [02:16:18] Be.

Lauren Matthias [02:16:18] Be very afraid. The conflict in The Middle East 2015 is really, really important. Again, Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell got their platform, got their sort of. It was 2015 that really took them by storm. And then when Julie started publishing her books, it's just. I don't know how to drill this home any more. It's exhausting. It's exhausting.

John Dehlin [02:16:47] I just, I gotta show. I gotta show the. The photo that we showed a couple weeks ago. This is Lori Daybell. Lori Valo and Chad Daybell. Chad's wife's dead by this point. Lori's children are dead by this point. Two of Lori's ex husbands are dead by this point. Laurie's brother's dead by this point. They've absconded to Hawaii to become the Davidic servants, I guess to usher in Jesus's second coming. And what's the book under Lori Vallow's right knee?

Lauren Matthias [02:17:25] Lauren Matthias, Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [02:17:28] Visions of Glory. The book that we are, you know, the book that we're talking about here. Hundreds of thousands of copies. Soldiers. I was sad to learn by Barbara Brown, our mutual friend, that sales of this book went up when we did our episodes about it, which kind of bummed me out.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:45] You know why? Probably is because of a vow. They'll be very happy to hear that. So I was sent from an avow snitch about 45 pages of Christopher Perret encouraging people to go buy the book, to read the book, and for people that never read it, to go read it to. To show us. Show us something. But what they showed me is that this book is. That's how popular this book is. I'll send you. I don't know. Do you? I'll send you all 45 pages after this. Just encouraging people in a vow. So.

John Dehlin [02:18:22] And by the way, I'm just gonna keep hard. I'm gonna keep harping on this. Tom Harrison, the author of this book, is not only currently a member in good standing, as I understand it, he still advises the LDS Church's missionary committee on which missionaries should be able to continue their missions or be sent home early for mental illness. So he's not just a member in good standing still, he is also still advising the church on issues of mental health. And this is the same guy who said in a video clip that when he sees his clients, he channels their dead relatives to find out what his treatment intervention should be for his clients. Am I making that up? No, not making that up. Let's go to this next clip. You helped us find where Julie Rowe gets into the Davidic Servant dialogue. You want to set this up or.

Guest 3 [02:19:15] Or.

Guest [02:19:15] Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:19:16] This is 2000, and this is 2017. So this is Julie Rowe from Julie Rose Channel. She's talking with her once friend, Eric Smith. I do want to know. Eric Smith has moved on from this chapter in his life. Eric and I communicate.

Guest 2 [02:19:32] So.

Lauren Matthias [02:19:32] But. So we're sharing this because Julie Rowe, they did an entire podcast episode on the Davidic Servant in 2017, and Eric asks her who she thinks the Davidic servant, who the Davidic servant is.

John Dehlin [02:19:49] All right, let's roll the clip.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [02:19:52] I mean, have you seen the servant? Julian, I'm kind of wondering, too, does the servant have, like, an office or somewhere they work from?

Video Clip 3 [02:20:01] I have seen a servant, and they do have an office, and they have an office in. In the West. I'm not going to tell you where it is, but there. There is an office in the west near where the church headquarters will be at that time. Well, we know the church headquarters will be in Rexburg, so I'm not going to tell you exactly where it is, but it'll be in the Rexburg area.

Video Clip 3 [02:20:26] Okay, interesting.

Video Clip 3 [02:20:30] I see that the Dispensation Presidency, the Davidic Servant or the Presidency will have offices near the church headquarters, which later will be in Rexburg after the big earthquake. But this is a few years later after that, two or three Years later, after that big earthquake that happens in Utah. So I don't. I don't know the exact time frame. And then after they have been established in the 144,000 begin to go out, the remaining work will be done where they are traveling the earth as resurrected or translated beings. And they will go over to New Jerusalem and help establish some of the work in New Jerusalem preparatory to the Savior's return. Then at a later point, they will. They will all be living in the New Jerusalem as a city of light.

Video Clip 3 [02:21:27] Okay, now, Julie, I want to ask

Video Clip 3 [02:21:29] about this, this present Davidic presidency, if you will. Are there many of these kinds of Davidic presidencies? Is there one? Are there other councils?

Video Clip 3 [02:21:42] There's one Davidic presidency, but there. And they have a council. They have council, both men and women. And then from there, more councils are set up. That's the pattern. Multiple councils with councils, overseeing councils.

Video Clip 3 [02:21:59] Okay.

Video Clip 3 [02:22:01] That's how you can manage 144,000 people.

John Dehlin [02:22:06] Yeah. So when you're managing 144,000 people, you need councils. Managing councils. Lauren Matthias.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:14] Correct. Yes. And we need Davidic servants.

John Dehlin [02:22:17] You know, a presidency. A Davidic presidency, yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:22] Yeah. I thought. I'm glad you played that. I just thought it was really interesting again, because it shows again and again. Again, this is not a new thing. And it didn't start with Julie Rowe either, you know, but. But we are seeing this again and again. I've heard from people that Chad thought he was the davidic servant. I've heard that Julie now thinks she's the Davidic servant, but didn't. Maybe then. I've heard that maybe it was Tom or that maybe Tom told Tim that he was the Davidic servant. Tim Ballard. But, you know, I just. Again and again, Maven says that there's

John Dehlin [02:22:57] going to be a lot of Davidic council meetings, because that's what we do. We do meetings. All right, well, we have an amazing audience. We have 4,100 people joining us. I want to ask everybody whether they're on Lauren's Hidden True Crime channel or on Mormon Stories. Please subscribe right now to our channels and please like this episode that will help it get shared in the algorithms. None of the journalists are really digging deep to really understand these concepts like Lauren does and like we try and do. So please like and share and comment. We always appreciate anyone who's willing to throw us some super chats. And I just want to thank my monthly donors who go to mormonstories.org and click on the donor button to become a Monthly donor, because that's how we are able to do this show is by. By the support of our monthly donors. So thanks to all those who make this possible. Let's go ahead and. Right, let's go ahead and move towards the. The end of this story. Let's go back. Let's go back to the dad, Brother Thibodeau, and let's hear some of the remaining clips about how the story ends. Okay, so when she took off, though, were you surprised that she took it this far or was it kind of? Well, you know, that's kind of along the path she was going to.

Spring's Escalating Preparations and Blaze's Disappearance

clip [02:24:25] When she was into the Julie Rose stuff. She started spending significant amount of money on food prep. She was buying a lot of winter gear, even though we live in Arizona. She was buying tents. She was convinced that, that the saints would have to gather in the last days up into the mountains. And she was preparing for that.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] Okay, so it talks. So now, now we're back at the family. We're talking about Spring Thibodeau working for Julie Rowe, and she starts prepping, right?

Lauren Matthias [02:25:00] Correct.

clip [02:25:02] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:25:03] Yeah. And. And Ben starts getting more and more nervous, I'm guessing. And again, we went through that whole rant on the Davidic servant. I think it's pretty obvious that everybody knows that somehow, if it's not obvious already, that Spring and. And Brooke and Abby for some reason received revelation that Blaze Thibodeau, against his own will and knowledge, was going to become the Davidic servant, even though he doesn't have the name David. Is that right? Isn't the Davidic servant supposed to have the name David?

Lauren Matthias [02:25:39] Can we talk about that for a second? Because I learned that today too, from a few people. Thank you to everyone who's told me this and written in. I've had three people ask me what Blaze's middle name is because they've told me that the Davidic servant is supposed to have the name David. And then they said, well, of course, though they mentioned that, you know, you can give him that name too later. It can be, you know, because Avron Giliotti is not his name. He. He gave himself that name. That's not his birth name. But I do know Blazes middle name and it is not David. But I do find it interesting enough to note. And his middle name is Isaiah, whatever that means. I don't know. I'm not the Isaiah expert, as I've shared again and again in this podcast, nor am I the Davidic servant expert, but quite the. The many people that have written in and Told me the name matters. I do find that compelling and interesting that Blaze Thibodeau's middle name is Isaiah. So if anybody wants to tell us what you think about that, let us know.

John Dehlin [02:26:50] I'll just say, if you're Mormon and you have the name David, run away. Run away.

Lauren Matthias [02:26:56] Such an uncommon name. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:58] You never know when your fundamentalist Mormon family member is going to tell you it's gonna abduct you and recruit you in. I'm just kidding. All right, let's go to a little bit more serious talk about concern for Blaze by his dad, Ben Thibodeau.

Father's Fears for His Son Blaze

clip [02:27:13] I. I'm totally surprised that she took my son, Blaze. And I'm even more concerned because Blaze has never subscribed to any of this. He is not.

Guest [02:27:26] He.

clip [02:27:27] He is in no way a supporter of anything she's ever believed. He is your prototypical teenager, that all he wants to do is hang out with friends and be on his phone. He's an athlete. He. He's on the football team. He's worked so hard to. To be on that football team. They still have games left this season. There's no way that he would. He would have gone along with this. So they've coerced him, possibly sedated him. He's probably maybe been threatened. I did hear from Braden that Brayden asked if Blaze was going, and apparently he was told that. That they told Blaze he was going on an earthly early birthday vacation. But obviously that would have been. Blaze would have figured out really quickly that that's. There is no vacation. So I'm very concerned about that piece, that my son is in danger and that his uncle maybe is. It could be at the aggressor in this if things don't go the right way.

John Dehlin [02:28:27] What do you think about that idea that they may have sedated him? How dark is that?

Lauren Matthias [02:28:31] It's very dark. And I want to say, you know, maybe it's because I'm a true crime channel and I deal with crime a lot, but I think this entire story was and is very dark. And I do believe that Blaze's life was in danger, which is why I went live so quickly on my channel multiple times, even before I knew how to pronounce his last name. Forgive me, everyone, but I. I do think this story is really dark. Tyler Ryan was 16 years old and was just about to turn 17. Exact same age as Blaze. He didn't believe. Tyler Ryan didn't believe. His dad said right then and there, oh, Blaze would have fought. Nate Eaton asked that question. It was a great question by Nadine. He said, would he pretend to go along with it or would he fight it? And his dad said, oh no. He'd be like, what the heck is this? Get me out of here. You know, Tyler did the same thing. What they wanted with Blaze. We still don't know. I think we're going to learn a lot more because of these two felony accounts. Oh, let me just explain that to people too. There is not a kidnapping charge. There's an interfering with custodial, you know, interference, conspiracy to interfere. Because at the time they're still married. These parents are still married. Blaze did not go against his will, although he was coerced with this early birthday idea. You know, he didn't know he was going, you know, to for the rapture. But they were the Arizona. I want to give props to Arizona Gilbert. They quickly gave Ben custodial rights because. And they cited. I guess we're going to get to that, aren't we? They cited the Lori Valo case as the reason they're, they're quickly doing this. Arizona, in my opinion, really dropped the ball when it came to the Lori Valo Chad Dabel case. Well, they didn't drop the ball in this case situation. They quickly put out two warrants or, or warrants for the arrests of both Brooke and Spring. They cited the Lori Val case. They quickly allowed him to have temporary full time custody of Blaze. And they found Blaze at the Alaskan border. I predicted Canada Cardston for many reasons. I was wrong. They found him at the Alaskan border. And I do think the story is dark and I think it could have taken a very deadly turn. And I am so glad that Blaze is safe. And I think it was many people that played a part in making sure this boy was safe and this could happen again. And we've just got to drill this like, thank God he's safe. And we. Yeah, thank God. This is, this was a dark and is a dark story. We're going to be learning more though because of these felony counts. We're going to be FOIA document doc. We're going to learn what happened. We're definitely going to learn more soon.

John Dehlin [02:31:21] Yeah. Yeah. Let's congratulate law enforcement, but let's also say Mormon Church, where were you? What have you done to make, you know, we know what law enforcement's doing to step up to, to respond better and better to these cases. What are you doing, Mormon Church to make these cases less and less prevalent and less and less common. All right, let's Go ahead and jump to the next clip. Are you worried for your son's safety?

clip [02:31:55] Absolutely. Absolutely. I fear for his safety, especially my uncle doing something to him. If, if my son is contentious or rebellious or belligerent. I fear that my brother in law would restrain him or do something that, that would incapacitate him. Because my brother in law, when he left, he left notes for his children saying he was not coming back and that something amazing was going to happen very soon with the return of the Savior. And he essentially wrote a last will and testament and, and divided out all his assets. He moved money into his children's accounts, into his, his wife's account, who's actually going through a very contentious divorce from. So he, he. He basically liquidated everything and divvied that up and told where he wanted all his assets to go. So I'm very concerned, yes.

John Dehlin [02:32:56] And what does that, what does that mean to you, Lauren? Why is that troubling that Brookhale was, was settling his accounts?

Lauren Matthias [02:33:04] I mean, this is so real. This is so literal and real. This isn't fun. This isn't an adventure. This isn't something that they're gonna realize, oh, wait, maybe we jumped the gun. This is real. They were preparing, prepping, no pun intended, but we're talking their entire will and testament money, taking out all their savings, giving it away. That's how real this was. And when something is this real, life or death stops mattering to people, too, including that of their children. You know, when it's that real.

John Dehlin [02:33:41] And it should be noted, Brooke Hale has five children and he left his children.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can't imagine that he was that big of a fan of Blaze either, if Blaze wasn't even believing in the mission. You know, left his kids and then hold off Blaze for their own personal reasons.

John Dehlin [02:34:02] Yeah. All right, we've got a couple more clips left. Let's play the next one.

Guest 3 [02:34:08] It's really hard.

clip [02:34:10] The literature they've been reading and the books and all the studying has just taken them down these dark rabbit holes and just has completely corrupted their brain. They're all good people. They're all wonderful people, but getting into these dark topics has really corrupted them in a really horrible way. But they genuinely are just loving, kind people before, before any of this unfolded.

Guest 3 [02:34:37] Right.

Guest [02:34:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] I, you know, religious freedom isn't going anywhere in the United States. And I'm, I'm not anti religion, and I'm not against religious freedom. And I'll just say that ideas can be dangerous. Ideas can be mind viruses. That are as contagious and potentially as deadly as, as a, as a biological virus. And I don't know what to do with that as a society.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:05] Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Religious freedom is not going away in the United States. And just because someone wants to say Happy Holidays, to be respectful to all religions and backgrounds does not mean that your Christian religion is threatened. I agree with that. And I do believe in respecting people's beliefs and religions. I really try to do that. But as many of my friends have pointed out, and I believe this, you can respect religion. You can, you can understand everyone's beliefs until they become dangerous or disrespectful. I do not. How about this? I do not have to respect someone's belief if their belief is against LGBT people and I'm an ally. I do not have to respect that belief. I do not have to respect a belief that's different than mine when someone's life is being threatened. I do not have to respect, you know, people's differing beliefs when something is a danger. And we don't have to do that with our family members either. And I think so often we do get shamed by this idea that like, you know, religious freedom and we have to respect everyone's beliefs. I respect different people's different beliefs. That's why I say Happy Holidays, whatever. But when it comes to things that are in danger or infringing on the rights of others, not just my rights, but everyone else's rights, we do not have to respect those beliefs. And we can confront them and we can talk about them and we can discuss them openly. And we need to without people feeling threatened while still allowing people to worship how, where and what they may. Right, John?

John Dehlin [02:36:49] I think that's an article of faith too.

Lauren Matthias [02:36:51] It is, it is.

Resolution, Parallels to the Daybell Case, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:36:53] All right, well, let's move, let's move to the happy ending hopefully of this case.

Speaker F [02:36:59] Teenager allegedly kidnapped by his mother and uncle in Arizona was found safe in eastern Alaska yesterday. Alaska State troopers say U.S. customs and Border Protection notified them at 6:30 last night that they had detained 49 year old Spring Thibodeau and 47 year old Brooke Hale on the U.S. elkan border. With both had active arrest warrants out of the Arizona for kidnapping ast saying that there was a missing juvenile located as well. Our news partners at Arizona family reporting that 16 year old Blaze Thibodeau had been found safely last night. Ben Thibodeau, Blaze's father, said spring had been fascinated with end of days religious prophecies. Ben says Blaze was Possibly tricked into thinking he was going on vacation to celebrate his birthday.

John Dehlin [02:37:51] All right, so there we have it. The, the news breaks. We can go ahead and show this little slideshow put together by the Daily Mail. They start in Gilbert, Arizona. They hop to Boise, Idaho. Then apparently they do. They drive.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:10] They drive. And it drives Monday. And I think it's about a 41. I looked it up on maps. I think it's about 41 hours driving to that port of entry from Boise.

John Dehlin [02:38:23] So they drive through Canada to the Alaska border and then they're stopped at the Alcon port of entry. I guess their ultimate destination was Alaska.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:35] Yeah. Yeah. I had speculated with our gems, our hidden gems, that it was Canada for many reasons. Karsten, Karsten is a huge place where the prepared are going to go. In the Visions of Glory book. That is his place. You know, that's. But it was not, it was Alaska. And that's something that concerns me even more because I remember thinking, well, in Carson, you know, at least there's people that are like minded people. They'll be there. You know, it's 11 degrees, but it's not, you know, 30 below. Maybe they have people to stay with. I actually find it a lot more frightening that it was up in Alaska

John Dehlin [02:39:15] in the middle of. And I'm curious if they had contacts in Alaska, if they were going to go to some sort of alleged safe house and whether there's going to be any investigations into whether, into where they were going and whether there were any other accomplices that were encouraging them to come there.

Lauren Matthias [02:39:33] Right. And I want to also give props to the border agents that, that that's how they were found. They were crossing the border and they found them. You know, way to be paying attention and understanding the situation so far away from home.

John Dehlin [02:39:52] And of course, you shared the Gilbert Police Department's tweet. The Blaze was in the company of his mother, Spring Thibodeau, his uncle Brook Hale, and sister Abigail Thibodeau. Spring Thibodeau and Brook Hale were arrested on full, on valid full extradition warrants and turned over to Alaska State Troopers. Thank you to everyone who assisted by sharing information in our investigation to locate Blaze and reunite him with his father. So hopefully in not too distant future, Blaze will be back on his football team, going to homecoming in prom and enjoying the rest of his high school days and beyond. Right?

Lauren Matthias [02:40:34] Absolutely. Absolutely. Hopefully. Hopefully, maybe some good will come out of this too. He seems like a great kid. He's got a great name. You know, maybe, maybe some good attention will come out of this.

John Dehlin [02:40:47] Maybe he'll come on Hidden True Crime podcast someday.

Guest 2 [02:40:50] There you go.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:51] Let's hope. Yeah, we're Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [02:40:55] Well, I thought it was cool that maybe just to end because I think we've had a good, a really good show today. But you have some interesting points that you shared. These might not have been yours. They might have been someone who shared them with you. But you've identified some parallels between Blaze and the Thibodeaus and Chad Daba and Lori Valo. And this all speaks to Mormon doomsday prepperism, end times, near death experience preparism. Do you want to just kind of read those out?

Lauren Matthias [02:41:26] Yeah, I'll read those. And a shout out to our hidden gem Melanie for sharing a lot of these. We were communicating parallels between the daybell Vallow case and Blaise Thibodau case. The self proclaimed chosen people with various characters passed and prophesied. Number two, abduction of children. The sudden fleeing into the wilderness like Lehi and Zoram, not telling even close family members where they were going and cutting them off. A male leader. Our gem Melanie writes, it's curious if women think that they will need the male priesthood, which should be, which should be a rhetorical question but dot dot dot Marital breakdown. Both Spring and Brooks marriages were on the rocks like the daybell story. And Abby's marriage was clearly compromised. And then influences, which is what we've been mostly focusing on today. Julie Rowe Visions of Glory Avram Gileadi and then she said that she's not sure if the Dables were into Avram, but it would be interesting to expand this list and I couldn't agree more with that. Definitely wanting to expand. Here we go. More LDS Mormon obvious but important to point out money withdrawal and acquisition. I think this is really interesting. Both did money withdrawal and acquisition. Would be good to document this because we all know how much money the daybell and Fallow case was about the, you know, life insurance using Social Security funds from JJ and Tyler. It was so much money there. The belief in the divine law above earthly law. Absolutely. I added this one. Mental health issues. Reported Ben saying that Blaze attributed his mom's beliefs to mental health issues. Yes, that's absolutely right. Dreams and interpretations of dreams. Both Spring and Abby reported to have dreams and the ability to interpret said dreams. The deviation from LDS Mormon mainstream beliefs. And that is true. I think we covered that like yes, worship at church happens, but these are conversations that are going deeper. They're finding an echo chamber. Whether that's on social media or the hallway of the church or in their neighborhoods or at their friend's home.

John Dehlin [02:43:37] I'll just say the only problem I have with that one, and I'll let you keep going. If eight of Avraham Gileadi's books are being sold at Deseret Book True. If Visions of Glory has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, it's. It's hard to know how mainstream these beliefs are. That's all I'm going to say.

clip [02:43:55] Fair.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:55] That's fair. That's fair. Yeah.

clip [02:43:57] You.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:58] I absolutely agree with that. So how about this? These are not taught at church. Unless, I guess, you have that Sunday school teacher that brings visions of glory in the paper bag like they did for Megan on our podcast. So then maybe they are taught at church. Most churches, I don't know. They're not in the curriculum, taught at church. I don't know. I'm trying to.

John Dehlin [02:44:18] I mean, there's kernels in. All these teachings have kernels in Mormon doctrine. Angels, Second Coming, dreams, visions, prophets, you know, coming of Jesus. And these are fringe people. We just don't know how fringe. All right.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:38] Right. Yeah, fair enough. Thank you for adding to that. One foot in both worlds. Active members and also fringy at the same time.

John Dehlin [02:44:47] Or temple. Temple workers, as we noticed.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:49] Temple workers. You know, people want to say, oh, they are not part of our religion. No, no, these are. These are Mormons. And I. I want to acknowledge that. Not to, like, upset those that are lds. I. I love LDS people so much. I really do. It's not to upset those that are lds. It's to. I want to find the root of the problem. And we're not going to find that by pretending that they're not lds. Yeah, this is happening in LDS wards and in LDS communities. A foot in both worlds. They are active members, but also fringy. Controversial notoriety. Yes. A belief that the end is super close. Obvious, but interesting how Abby said she might be back in a few years and Brooke told his kids that he didn't know when he would see them. Parents willing to abandon children for the cause. I mean, this is huge, right? Spring and Brook still had children at home to raise. Location of origin. Arizona and Idaho. We get to now add Alaska to that, but Arizona and Idaho. What is it? And more specifically, not just Arizona and Idaho. Let's talk specific Gilbert, Arizona area and the Rexburg east Idaho area. You know, east Idaho, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:46:05] Don't forget Provo, baby.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:07] Yeah, Not a lot's going on there right now. I don't know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:11] Well, Brookhale was going on in Provo.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:14] Oh, true. You're right. Provo. Yeah.

Guest [02:46:15] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:16] He was. He was. Yeah. A lot of firm expos? And things happening in person.

John Dehlin [02:46:19] Basically. Provo north and Provo south were both involved. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:22] Yeah. And Avram Gileadi teaches it. Byu. Right. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:46:26] I don't know about that.

clip [02:46:27] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:27] Oh, maybe not. So he's just a scholar on the website.

John Dehlin [02:46:30] Yeah, maybe.

Guest [02:46:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] Who knows? I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:33] Clarifying that belief that the end is super close. Obvious comparison. But it is interesting how Abby said that she might be back in a few years and Brooke told the kids that he didn't know when he would see them. I want to again bring up. This is similar to the Valo Debel case. You have to understand that the rapture for many of these LDS preppers is pre tribulations, not post. So they don't just go back up to live with Christ when he comes. They're going to be the remaining 144,000 on Earth and they're going to just be dealing with stuff and hoping to get trans. And portaling everywhere. Portals are a big part of that. You portaled from Kardsden to Rexburg to Gilbert and back. All the portals there, and your veil's ripped open and you work on being translated.

John Dehlin [02:47:21] Demons come into the crowd of your head.

clip [02:47:24] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:24] So pre tribulations. Pre Trib is the Mormon belief. So that helps people understand that the end is near. But they're preparing for a lot that helps people.

John Dehlin [02:47:38] People are recommending we do a portal vogue. Portals. Portals. Let your body move to the music.

clip [02:47:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:47] Portals. Portals.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:49] Just. Just as my. As my little son says, just make sure when in your portal to wear a helmet. That's what matters most.

John Dehlin [02:47:55] All right, so I think we got locations. The last one is. The last one you haven't gotten.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:02] Okay, thank you. Quoting scripture at people to get them to obey. We talked about this with Avram. You know, Gileadi, too. A sacrifice. And you will be blessed after the trial of your faith, etc.

John Dehlin [02:48:16] One of the chosen who knows the inner deepest wisdom, the salt that doesn't lose its savor. The elite of the elite. Right?

clip [02:48:27] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:28] Yes. And. And I even think we saw that with Abby and her husband. She said to him, would you be prepared? It was a test of faith. Would you do this? And he says, yes. And then she says, okay, well, we're here. You coming or not? And he felt pressure because it was a test of his faith. This is how much faith do you have Laurie? Are you going to move to Rexburg where it's cold? Are you going to sacrifice the thing you're supposed to love the most? You know, it's. It's always a test of faith, which is super manipulative.

John Dehlin [02:48:56] Well, I think it would be fitting to end with a focus on Blaze and just say, blaze, we don't know if you can hear us out there, but we're sorry this happened to you and we are so happy you're safe and we hope you're able to return to a happy, healthy, normal life. And we're happy for this happy ending and we wish you the best, Blaze. And then the only other thing I'll say is Mormon Church, please do better. Please clean up this doomsday near death experience. You know, Visions of Glory Tom Harrison Avram Gileadi Isaiah Rod Meldrum Tim Ballard

Lauren Matthias [02:49:47] Jody Hildebrandt Latter Day Media Preparing the people like Nancy James's Avow Christopher Perrette Roger K. Young Timothy Ballard Prepper Ism Clean Beck. Glenn Beck. Looking at you, I saw your tweets promoting visions of glory and that you were selling it on the Blaze marketplace and it was on your desk while you were making goals.

John Dehlin [02:50:17] Mormon Church leadership, clean this up. You know how to do it. You've done it with the liberals, you've done it with the pro LGBT people.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:24] You did it with John Dehlin. Come on.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] Sam Young, Natasha Helfer, Jeremy Runnels, you know how to get rid of people. You know how to purge. You know a clean house. It's time to do it on the other side.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:37] Correct? Well said. Well said.

John Dehlin [02:50:39] Or we're going to have more, more lives in danger and more families destroyed.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:44] Right? Again, we're not seeing Sam Young's name, you know, when it comes to the Elizabeth Smart FOIA documents. So we're seeing his policies implemented and yours too, so. Exactly. Exactly.

Guest Thanks, Support Links, and Farewell

John Dehlin [02:50:57] All right. Lauren Matthias. Well, you are a gift to our community. You and Dr. John are doing amazing work. How can all of our viewers support you?

Lauren Matthias [02:51:09] Thank you for asking. First off, everyone watching both channels because we are dual streaming this, I started mine a bit late. Thank you for the opportunity, John. Go back and forth to both channels and like this video and subscribe to both of us.

Guest [02:51:26] But.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:26] But give both a thumbs up. It means a lot. As John pointed out, it helps us both. And thank you for subscribing to Hidden True Crime. It's a place where, whether you like crime or not, we delve to the. To the root of it and we Also talk a lot about the psychology behind the criminal. We want to be able to help. We want to be able to understand.

Guest 2 [02:51:48] So.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:49] So thank you for those two things. We also have a Patreon account, patreon.com hidden true crime. It's a place where you can support us monthly and we give back with. With episodes and a lot of FOIA documents. We have files and files. And I will be posting. So I mentioned John, and I'll. I'll send it to you, but I mentioned that I've got myself in a vow snitch and I have the 40 pages of all their discussion about our Visions of Glory episode. I also have 60 pages when it comes to everything they discuss about your Kim and Josh Coffin podcast that you did. So I'll be posting those on Patreon for anyone that wants to go check those out. I'll just send them to you, John. Don't worry. But. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:39] So.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:40] Patreon.com hidden true crime is a place where we have a really wonderful community and we share things a little bit more private, things that we feel safer putting behind a paywall.

Guest 3 [02:52:48] I love it.

John Dehlin [02:52:50] All right, Maven. Maven, I'm going to put you on the spot. There's Maven. There's the wonderful Maven. Maven, you just jumped in and made this thing happen. I can't unmute you. Your camera's looking good. Your lights are looking good, Maven. Thanks for doing this and making this happen.

Guest 2 [02:53:06] No, it's funny because this. This time I specifically didn't actually jump into the story other than just kind of headlines that rolled across, because it's usually you and Lauren and others that are putting these things together. So I was like, I'll just learn about it when I mod. And so, yeah, so when I was like, do you need help? And you're like, yeah, could you put these together? And I was like, yeah. I mean, you remember from. I was like, from scratch. Or do you. Do you have sources that I just, like, the one time. The one time, like, I don't need to learn about this. I, you know, I don't need to study. I don't need to know any background. It's kind of funny, but the chat's been very forgiving for my mistakes, so

Lauren Matthias [02:53:44] I appreciate the support, everyone. You were great. I went on to jump on and post things and always I'm like, so how. So how do you do this? And you were like, there were like 10 slides already made. You guys are amazing.

John Dehlin [02:53:57] So, yeah, well, this, this episode wouldn't have happened without you, Maven. Now, Maven, are you starting a new podcast?

Guest 2 [02:54:03] I'm working on some projects and I. I feel bad that I'm not doing as much as I would like to, but we started. I started with Gene Judson, which I saw him in the chat, a Ladder Daily Digest. We're just trying to create mini episodes about other Mormon related podcasts out there to try to connect an audience with the right podcast and vice versa. We just think that Mormon Stories is. Is the big player in the room, and I think most people end up landing here, but I think a lot of people and a lot of smaller channels also have good content that, yeah, I guess should be known and we want to speak to that.

John Dehlin [02:54:42] So, yeah, there's Mormonish, there's. There's Mormonism Live and Radio Free Mormon.

Lauren Matthias [02:54:49] There's so many.

John Dehlin [02:54:50] There's so many.

Guest 2 [02:54:51] Yeah. And we're trying to do across the spectrum as well, including faithful podcasts. But I. And this is something I actually brought up before. I don't know how to tackle podcasts like what we've brought up here because I don't like the idea of platforming ones that I feel like are problematic. But then when you start letting your own personal biases in. So that's something we're still kind of navigating, but that's what we're. That's what I'm working on.

John Dehlin [02:55:15] All right, well, Maven, it's great to have you and thanks for today's episode. Would not have happened without you, so thank you.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:22] Thank you.

Guest 2 [02:55:22] And thanks to Julia also, who's been behind the scenes taking notes. She's got. Yeah, she's doing all of our.

John Dehlin [02:55:30] But yes, thank you.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:31] Sorry, I was worried.

Guest 2 [02:55:33] I didn't have. I shouldn't have.

John Dehlin [02:55:34] I don't want Julia. I think I was going to forget her. All right, thanks, Maven and Julia. Yeah, thanks to Julia for the time codes in the show notes and all the post production stuff she does and the shorts and the video editing and everything. And Brooklyn and Gerardo and Clint and Carrie and everyone in the Open Stories foundation who makes this possible. If you want to see Mormon Stories continue, the best way to do that is go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor.

clip [02:56:02] We.

John Dehlin [02:56:03] We lose 10 to 20 monthly donors a month, and if we don't replace them, then our revenue starts to drop and we start to have to cut services. So if you want to see Mormon Stories continue, please become a monthly donor and we'll keep doing good stuff. All right, well, Lauren, you're the best. Say hi to Dr. John.

Lauren Matthias [02:56:21] Thanks, John. Will do. I'll say hello to my Dr. John and thank him for, for holding on the fort today so we could, we could go on live. So thank you.

John Dehlin [02:56:29] All right, well, keep up the work. Okay, all your viewers and listeners. And thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. We love your feedback. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com There were several listeners and viewers that helped me prepare some of this information. That title is a bit smart. I didn't come up with that was a viewer and a listener. Some of the intelligence around the thibodeaus I've gotten from viewers and listeners. So much, so much of what we get comes from you. So we love your tips. You can DM us on Instagram or on Facebook and you can email us@mormonstoriesmails.com and we love your feedback and your info. Please be kind to each other. Please be good to each other. Again, please donate to these episodes when you can. Take care of fight end times, apocalyptic Mormon, near death experience, prepperism whenever you can. Let's fight religious fundamentalism wherever it is. Let's, let's be evidence based, let's be truth based and let's be kindness based. And I say these things in the name of all that's good. Take care, everyone. We'll see you all again soon. Take care.

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