Fond Memories of Growing Up in the Church

Clark Pingree [00:00:01] I would say the positive experiences that I've had in the church growing up in my teenage years, I loved the Boy Scouts. Growing up in my ward, we had a great Boy Scout troop, great Scout masters. We went out and we did a lot of great character building things that I still look back on and really cherish those memories. I would say also my mission was a very positive character building experience of my life. I think my mission was one of the hardest things that I ever did. But having achieved and accomplished two years of that kind of work and that kind of endeavor really has made me into the person, a lot of the person that I am today.

Clark Pingree [00:00:45] I would also say one of my experiences in my twenties when I went on study abroad to the Middle east with byu, I had some fantastic spiritual experiences and also some great interactions with my peers who are also members of the church over in the Middle East. And what an enlightening historical time it was to be in the Middle East. Then I would say spiritually high points in my life.

Clark Pingree [00:01:16] I think coming out, when I came out to my family was probably one of the most challenging spiritual times, but also the most enriching because for the first time in my life I was being completely honest about who I was and what I was about.

Clark Pingree [00:01:36] And it took down the barrier that had existed for so long with my family. And I think that they saw a different side of me, a side that was a lot more open and a lot more willing to share my life and share my experiences with them.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Do you have any fond memories of scripture study or prayer? I mean, was that an important part of your life? Has it been an important part of your life?

Clark Pingree [00:02:00] Scripture study growing up My parents are very, very committed to the LDS Church. And growing up, we were always very committed to the LDS Church. And scripture study was part of our daily process. Every morning before we all went to school, Scripture study was part of our breakfast. Morning prayer was also part of our breakfast.

Clark Pingree [00:02:25] On Sundays we had dedicated scripture study. And I think that really gave me an appreciation for the Scriptures. On my mission, I really took a love for the New Testament and in the Middle East, I really took a love for the Old Testament and the value and the inherent value that you can learn about Christianity through the Scriptures. I think also prayer is something that I still rely on heavily today in my life.

Clark Pingree [00:02:55] Prayer will always be an important part of my life. And I think that I've grown in prayer in knowing that prayer is more of an open dialogue and an open conversation with my Creator that assures me that I'M loved that I'm watched over, that I'm cared for.

Coming Out Gradually While Staying Faithful

Clark Pingree [00:03:15] My church experience as I was coming out happened very gradually in stages. Many people have asked me, when did you come out? That's a very hard question for me to answer because my coming out was a process that was probably three, four, five years. I would say the ultimate event of my coming out was the final event of my coming out. And that was telling my family and my parents and. And that was something that I'd held out until I was 30 years old.

Clark Pingree [00:03:44] Many of my family, or I'm sorry, many of my friends had known about me being gay in my late 20s. And I would say my experiences in the church went through stages where I went through the phase of I have same sex attraction and now I need to deal with that and now I need to fix that.

Clark Pingree [00:04:08] And then I went through the phase of, all right, I've got same sex attraction. I'm still going to try and make marriage work. I'm going to still date women. I'm going to tell this woman when I meet her before I marry her that I struggle with this, but that's okay. We can get through this together. And then I think after a few years of that defeating approach, I realized I don't want to date women anymore and I don't want to be with a woman the rest of my life. And then came the period where I became exhausted and tired of the common rhetoric and the common things that were said at church and the common attitudes.

Clark Pingree [00:04:56] I found myself less and less motivated to attend church because I found the experience to be more negative than positive. And I reached the point where I wanted positive energy in my life and I wanted positive experiences in my life. And so I chose to seek only positive experiences in my life, my experience in the church. I think that if I were not gay, I would definitely still be active in the LDS Church. I found a lot of value in the church. There were things that I always questioned in the church even before I even acknowledged to myself or even was willing to admit to myself that I was gay.

Clark Pingree [00:05:40] There were always things that I questioned. I always thought that I was a questioning Mormon, a progressive Mormon, but I always found a way to put those questions and, and those unsurities on the shelf and focus on what I really liked about the church. And that was a structure and a path and a well defined process for fostering spirituality.

Clark Pingree [00:06:05] I would say people often ask me today, knowing that I'm openly gay, I get this question, especially where I live in the Bay area, Am I still a Mormon? They wonder, can you be gay and Mormon? That's a very interesting question because I still consider myself a Mormon and I always will because it's a very, very deep, innate part of me.

Clark Pingree [00:06:31] I've chosen to no longer go to church, but I still consider myself a Mormon with some of those core values of Christianity. And also culturally, I still hold to a lot of those, those cultural Mormon ties. I believe that I've always been gay. I've never known anything different. I believe that the makeup of my soul is intertwined with my orientation. Just like someone who's heterosexual, I believe that is also the makeup of their soul.

Clark Pingree [00:07:06] I can remember back to when I was six years old, so starting to have these inclinations of being attracted to those members of the same sex. And I never really acknowledged that to myself. I always thought that it was something that I would grow out of, something that I would mature out of that. It was just maybe an unusual part of my maturation process. I even looked to my mission as something that would ultimately cure me of this tendency. And I never acknowledged to myself what this tendency was. I never said in my mind I'm gay or I have same sex attraction. It was always a very repressed denial that I thought would always go away.

Clark Pingree [00:07:47] And it wasn't until I was probably 22 or 23 years old when it finally really came crashing down. And I said to myself, something's got to give here, something's got to change. I'm not outgrowing this. And this is very concerning to me.

Clark Pingree [00:08:06] I really thought that if I dated women more, the more I tried to pursue relationships with women, I would ultimately come across the relationship that would actually make things happen that would stir up those emotions that would happen. I dated a lot in high school. I can remember my junior year, I made it a personal goal to go to every single school school sponsored dance.

Clark Pingree [00:08:30] And I was successful at that. And I tried so hard. I took out a different girl every time thinking, okay, I didn't feel it with this girl. Let's see if I can feel it with this girl. And I remember specifically a date I had my junior year. I really focused on asking out one of the most attractive girls in the school. And she wore, for the evening, she wore a very revealing dress that really was stunning to everybody else and did absolutely nothing for me. And I look back on that and chuckle, thinking what an irony that was. And I always remember my interactions on those dates being very fun.

Clark Pingree [00:09:13] I enjoyed dating. I especially enjoyed dating when there was Less pressure. I recall specifically in college when I was on study abroad in the Middle east, one of our rules with the BYU program was there was to be no dating. That it was just to stay on the friendship level because we were there to learn about the Middle east. We were there to study and not to get distracted by soap opera love issues.

Clark Pingree [00:09:41] And I loved that because it removed all the pressure for me. That was probably the perfect type of social setting for me where I could have a lot of fun and build a lot of friendships with girls. And I did. And have no pressure for anything intimate or anything romantic. And I think I flirted a lot with girls in high school and in college and nothing ever came about that other than probably a lot of confused women wondering what I was all about.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] What about the flip side? Do you remember feeling anything for guys in high school or on your mission?

Clark Pingree [00:10:22] Absolutely. I think I always in middle school and high school had multiple crushes going on at the same time. I can't hone in on one because I think in my mind I was training myself not to get too intertwined in that because that wasn't good or that was something that I would grow out of. I. I do recall one person on my mission of the same sex who I definitely had a crush on and felt feelings for. And that was very frustrating for me because it was kind of this torturous dilemma to be in, to have these kind of feelings, yet know that that was completely, not only unacceptable, but off limits and to many, very perverse.

Clark Pingree [00:11:13] So all of my life I've always had those crushes. As long as I can remember, I've only been attracted to members of the same sex. I've never had any connection with members of the opposite sex in a romantic way. And I would say that the attraction goes much deeper than the fill attraction. I think a lot of people misunderstand the issue of homosexuality to be about sex or to be about something shallow or just not very very in depth. And to me that connection is physical, of course, but it's also spiritual, it's emotional, it's personal.

Clark Pingree [00:11:56] And I click much more in those ways with members of the same sex. And I don't have that clique with women. I click with women on the friendship level only. And that's all it's ever been with men. I click on many, many more fronts. Far beyond sexual attraction.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] Any thoughts on the stereotype that it's related to a domineering mom or, you know, being abused, or any quick thoughts on either confirming or dispelling those types of stereotypes.

Clark Pingree [00:12:37] I think when I first came out, there were a lot of people who were very, very surprised and very, very shocked to find out that I was gay because my upbringing was about as Mormon as it gets. I think a lot of people pictured my family as the picture perfect poster child family.

Clark Pingree [00:13:00] I can't think of anything in my upbringing or any negative or impactful experience in my life that would have any impact on my sexual orientation of any fashion. As far as I can, as far as I can reach, and as far as as I can comprehend. My upbringing in my life has been extremely mainstream and extremely devout to the credentials of Mormonism.

Clark Pingree [00:13:30] It took me a very, very long time to self identify as gay. Early on, I had tagged being gay with what many members of the church and conservative Christians out there would tag with being gay without having any reference on the issue using the word lifestyle and associating it with a very irresponsible way of life and one that was devoid of any form of spiritual guidance or any belief in any sort of moral. So I put that one off for a very long time. One thing I learned about myself and, and the power of the human mind was you can repress anything you want very, very deeply, very, very powerfully for a very long time.

Clark Pingree [00:14:20] It's not always healthy and it sometimes has very bad long term effects. But the power of the mind in repressing yourself can really extend for a very long period of time. Growing up, I never connected the dots. I never said to myself I'm gay or, or I have same sex attraction. I always thought it was something I would grow out of, even on my mission. I always thought it was something that I would just phase out of or grow out of, or that building myself up spiritually would make that issue go away, or that it would cure me of this crush that I had on guys and it would magically make me start liking women.

Clark Pingree [00:15:01] It wasn't until my mid-20s when I started realizing I had to deal with this reality. And it started out as I think I have same sex attraction. I need help. I need to get this fixed and taken care of so I can move on, get married and have a family and live a Mormon life happily ever after. And then gradually over time, I realized more and more that that probably wasn't going to be possible.

Clark Pingree [00:15:28] And I moved on from I have same gender attraction to I think I must be gay and I think this is here to stay and I don't think this is changing. And when I reached that point, I was probably age 24. It was then a very long process from admitting to myself that I was gay, towards dealing with that reality and coming to terms with that reality. It took me years.

Clark Pingree [00:15:54] There's a lot that you have to reconcile within yourself to be true to yourself. That took me a very long time. I've always been one by personality who has been very structured and very disciplined. And I've never been one to let anything defeat me. This being gay has been one of the great stretching and growing experiences of my life.

Clark Pingree [00:16:20] When I first set out to deal with this issue, when I first admitted to myself I think I'm attracted to members of the same sex, I was determined to take care of this and fix this. I prayed about it constantly. I got very tired of praying about this over and over and over again.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] What would you say to him?

Clark Pingree [00:16:41] I would make deals with God. I would tell him, I will not break this commandment if I can find a connection with a girl. I remember I used to always pray before a date with a girl in college, asking for special help in finding attraction. I would pray that I'd be able to kiss her and that I would enjoy kissing her.

Clark Pingree [00:17:05] I would pray all the time for someone in my life to be brought into my life that I would feel, feel that connection with. I remember in college at byu, One of the first people that I came out to was my bishop of my singles ward. And I was very fortunate. He was a very, very kind, compassionate, open minded bishop. And he will always be someone who will, will always hold a very high regard with me. He did recommend that I go see a counselor that was through the BYU Student Services.

Clark Pingree [00:17:47] And so for about a year and a half, two years, I saw a counselor on a weekly basis. And when this counseling regimen started, I was determined to kick this. I was determined to make myself be able to like women and kick this same sex attraction. And I went religiously every single week to these sessions. I would put off vacations, I would cancel other plans to make this weekly session happen. And these, these counseling sessions were actually very positive.

Clark Pingree [00:18:23] I didn't have someone who was trying to deprogram me or tell me that I was someone that I wasn't. It was more just talking through my issues and trying to identify any root causes for what I was feeling. And the huge irony to this counseling was there was nothing wrong with me. There was no experience. There was nothing to go back to in my early childhood or any part of my life that would have any bearing on why I had these feelings. It simply was what it was.

Clark Pingree [00:18:55] So after about a year and a half or two years of that, I decided this isn't doing anything for me. In fact, because I'm feeling more desperate, it's probably making these feelings stronger, these attractions stronger towards members of the same sex. So I eventually moved on from that. And I still look back on those times as very rewarding. I think I learned a lot about myself and I learned about how to solve just about every other problem in my life that I was dealing with, except for how to cure myself of being gay.

Clark Pingree [00:19:28] I think in the church, people don't realize that they are being mean when it comes to the issue of homosexuality. I think oftentimes the things that are said are very subtle. They're not oftentimes blatant, they're not outward hatred or outright prejudice, but they're smaller remarks, they're side remarks, they're snide remarks that attack and cut people who are dealing with that issue. So I don't think that most members of the church who are probably not being very Christian about the issue of homosexuality even realize that they're not being very Christian about the issue because it is so subtle. I can't think of an experience in church where I felt personally singled out and attacked for being gay.

Clark Pingree [00:20:24] I think a lot of that had to do with I was very closeted when I was going to church. But I do recall almost every week for the last few years that I was actively attending church. Just being so utterly frustrated with those subtle remarks, with those side small comments. You know, the comment that probably is the most frustrating for me was to accuse someone of going off and living the gay lifestyle.

Clark Pingree [00:20:53] That has always been a very frustrating term for me, the gay lifestyle. Insinuating that the lifestyle of a gay person is different from that of a straight person. And, and I look back now and me being an openly gay man who's Mormon, my lifestyle is identical to the lifestyle of someone who's heterosexual. You know, you hear at church all the time that homosexuality and gay marriage and gay rights and pride and all of those labels are signs of the last days.

Clark Pingree [00:21:31] And you hear it today that gay marriage now in California is yet another sign of the times that we are truly in the last days. And I just, I'm to the point now where I sort of sit back and light heartedly chuckle at those remarks because to me specifically in California where I live, where I now have a few more options to take control of my fate and have choice as to what my life will be, I see it as Quite the opposite. I see us becoming a more Christian, a more tolerant, a more loving and respectful society.

Same-Sex Marriage, Excommunication, and LDS Policy

Clark Pingree [00:22:11] And in California, legalizing same sex marriage to me represents that we're moving in that direction. So I see it as going the opposite direction. I find the options that the church gives to someone who's gay and LDS very, very frustrating because the church feels like it seems like the church feels like they're giving people like me options. And from my side of the table, those options are extremely unrealistic and extremely hopeless.

Clark Pingree [00:22:48] The option of alright, if you're gay, that's okay, we still love you, you can't act on that, you can't date, you can't act, you can't pursue any sort of companionship to me is a horrible, horrible sentence to live throughout life.

Clark Pingree [00:23:09] The irony is I don't really know anybody who is currently living that way of life. I don't think it's sustainable. I think it's a recipe for many types of personal disasters in one life. I certainly think it's a sentence to depression and loneliness and potential serious consequences that can come of that.

Clark Pingree [00:23:35] Me personally, I think one of the great lifelines that any person has in life is hope. And by telling someone that they cannot pursue companionship, that they will never have companionship, that they will grow old alone, that they will be on their deathbed alone, and that if they ever have any problems, they will be alone. I think that is a very bleak scenario. And I think that's where people really, if they're caught in that situation, life isn't very enjoyable and life is very devoid of fulfillment. I can speak personally to myself as one who's not in a relationship and there are some definite challenges with that.

Clark Pingree [00:24:24] And I'm reminded on a daily basis when I come home from work to an empty house, that I don't want to have an empty house house the rest of my life. And I hope that that's not something that is in store for me. I want that companionship. I want someone there that can be with me through the good times and through the rough times and we can enjoy that challenge and that reward together. And I hope that I can offer that same thing to a significant other. I have a dear friend of mine who, who I don't think I know anybody who has stuck with the church longer than this person.

Clark Pingree [00:25:06] He, until the age of 36 was fully active in the church. He was in very, very high impact church callings and he held a temple recommend and he went to the temple on a weekly basis. This in the face of admitting to himself that he was gay.

Clark Pingree [00:25:25] And I think for a while there, he was holding out and living that church prescribed path of being celibate and finding fulfillment through going to the temple. He had an experience with his bishop where he actually did nothing to break any of the parameters of holding a temple recommend. He, he'd broken no commandments, he'd broken no covenants, he'd simply become a little more open about being gay. And his bishop took his temple recommend away from him. And I saw his world literally come down on top of him as a result of that.

Clark Pingree [00:26:13] That was when I realized that this approach of holding out and saying the church is going to love me instead with me through thick and thin really made me question how sustainable is that life of living alone and having no hope for companionship. And he's really the last person that I've known who has stuck with that. And to this day, I really know no one who has successfully and happily lived life with no hope for companionship.

Clark Pingree [00:26:47] The other path of pursuing a relationship in excommunication. I think there are a lot of people who are gay and LDS who would have added tremendous value to the LDS church. And they've been excommunicated because they found someone that they loved and they realized that this person loved them too. And they loved them a little more than their church may love them. And so they chose between, they picked between those two choices. And that's a very, very difficult and very, very unfair choice to have to make to choose between a loved one and the church. And I've asked people many times over the years who have come to me and said, why don't you just, you know, be openly gay, that's fine, let's, we have no problem with you being gay, but why don't you just stay active in the church and not pursue any sort of relationship?

Clark Pingree [00:27:45] And the question I always ask that person is, especially if someone's married, take your spouse and ask yourself the question. If you are given the ultimatum of your spouse or the church, who would you choose? And I think that's the exact same dilemma that anyone who's gay faces. And I think most people, heterosexual or homosexual, would probably choose that person that they love.

Clark Pingree [00:28:14] I think that there are varying degrees and levels of one's orientation. I think that some people have more attraction to the same sex and less attraction to the opposite sex and vice versa. Me, myself, I have no attraction to the opposite sex and I have complete, full attraction to the same sex. So for me to honestly and fairly think that I could add any value or be a good partner to a woman with that disposition of mine, I think is a complete disaster waiting to happen. And I'm very grateful that I never put myself in that path, because I think if I did today, I'd be a very miserable person wondering what I'd done to myself.

Clark Pingree [00:29:05] There are many elements of the relationship that are not just sexual. And for me, if the attraction to the same sex were just sexual, I would be more open to, why not marry my best female friend and pursue a family, and we could just have sexual relations when it was time to procreate.

Clark Pingree [00:29:28] But attraction and connection between two people is far more than sexual. And whether people are having sexual relations or not, orientation is so much deeper than that. I know that if I were with a woman and we took that path of, say, for example, we didn't have intimate relations, I would be a very poor partner to her spiritually. I would be a very poor partner to her on an emotional level. I just wouldn't have the interest to give, and I wouldn't be able to provide that kind of partnership to a woman, much like a straight person would not be able to provide that kind of partnership to a member of their own, say, of their own own sex, irrespective of sexual relations.

Clark Pingree [00:30:18] I think excommunication is traumatic in that you are literally being thrown out of your culture. You're being thrown out of the spirituality that you've known all of your life. It's a severe kick to one's head in every sense of the word. And what I find interesting about excommunication is, is before I ever knew I was gay, before I ever had any inkling that I was a person that would potentially be on that firing line, I always struggled with excommunication because I thought it was just mean.

Clark Pingree [00:30:56] I think that when you read the New Testament and you learn about Jesus and his teachings from the Book of Mormon and the Scriptures, you see tolerance, you see love, and you see reaching out to people. Christ reached out to people who in their era were probably similar to homosexuals in today's area. He reached out to the social outcasts. And I just read nothing that would indicate that Christ would cast those people out for their sins or for what they were doing that was perceived to be wrong in that era. So it's something that has always been frustrating and challenging for me in that it's just very mean.

Clark Pingree [00:31:51] And I know that a lot of times we call excommunication a process of love. And a process of helping people come back to the fold. I don't know anybody who's gay, who's been excommunicated that has been allowed or been reached out to. To come back to the fold. So I have not seen that approach ever in real life.

Clark Pingree [00:32:17] I think that's one of the great challenges and the great opportunities we have in the church is people who don't have a personal connection to the issue of homosexuality. If they don't have a friend or a family member or a loved one who is dealing with being gay and LDS in a lot of ways, I don't fault them for having that approach. I think people have a lot of things that they deal with in life, and I look at things that are probably traumatic to other people's lives that I don't deal with. And I would probably be very unsympathetic or very apathetic or disinterested towards that issue.

Clark Pingree [00:32:53] So I always try to keep that tucked in the back of my mind that really this is about personal impact. With that said, I think everybody in the church knows someone who's gay. They just don't know it. That person hasn't told them. So I think this is one where everybody should be personally impacted by this. Statistically, just if you take a sampling of any population, everybody knows somebody who is gay.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] What's the percentage? Any idea?

Clark Pingree [00:33:24] Five percent is my conclusion. Five percent, at least. So I look at my extended family. I had a realization of this a couple of weeks ago at my grandfather's funeral. I have a lot of cousins. I have a very, very large Mormon family on both side of both my mom and dad's sides of the families. And I think I have. I don't know even the exact number of first cousins I have. I think I have somewhere between 50 and 55 first cousins.

Clark Pingree [00:33:56] There are no gay or lesbian members of my extended family within my first cousins who are gay or lesbian in that I know of. And there are actually none that I have any suspicions of. I was the first on both sides of the family. And I think that many people of all of my aunts and uncles and all of those 50 to 55 first cousins that I have, I'm sure that many of them said that exact same thing before I came out of. Why should I deal with this issue? Why should I be bothered with this issue? This issue? It doesn't personally impact me. I think a lot of them are no longer saying that.

Clark Pingree [00:34:37] I think some of the most talented, most creative, most witty, most hilarious, most spiritual People that I know are gay or lesbian. The one aspect that I really love about my life, since I've been completely open about who I am, is it's enabled me to really come across these people and build friendships with these people.

Clark Pingree [00:35:04] And some of the most Christian people that I know are gay and lesbian people. And these are the people who in an instant, at some point in their life would have given anything to just have been accepted in the LDS church. And so I think as a church we have lost out on a huge opportunity for these people who really wanted to be part of the fold and had a lot of talent and a lot of skill and a lot of spirituality to add to the fold.

Clark Pingree [00:35:39] I think the destruction of marriage is what goes on in marriages that are allowed to occur today. I see, I fail to see how somebody else's marriage has any impact on anyone else's marriage. To think that allowing gay or lesbian people to get married is going to destroy straight people's marriages, I think just makes absolutely no logical sense.

Clark Pingree [00:36:15] What kind of perplexes me with the whole political and legal aspiration towards banning gay marriage is I really would like to see us ban divorce because ultimately that is the civil transaction that is the deal breaker towards families, families and marriage. I actually think that allowing people of all orientations to get get married actually strengthens marriage. I think of a dear friend of mine, a close co worker, she's gay, and her partner, they just recently got married in California with their four kids by their side. And I think how on earth is allowing them to get married putting them or their family at any sort of disadvantage?

Clark Pingree [00:37:07] In fact, in fact, I see quite the opposite. I see a family. I actually recently spent a couple of days with them since they've been married. And I see a family that is now legally bound and they now have that respect and that legitimacy from society that their family is valid. And I think it serves only to strengthen our society. We have people who are going to be in relationships no matter what the law says they can or cannot do. So why not give them the ability to step up to a higher plane in life and have more accountability and more responsibility and more fulfillment and more happiness through the process of marriage.

Clark Pingree [00:37:57] It just doesn't make any sense to me me to say that allowing this would take away from another person's marriage. I think one of the great benefits of allowing same sex marriage is to encourage people like me to stop marrying your heterosexual daughters. I think that will solve so many marital crises that happen, especially in the Mormon culture right There it sets the precedence that if you're gay, maybe it's okay to not marry a woman. By continually demonizing and tearing down people who are gay and lesbian through the ballot box, through what we say, through what we tell people to do. This is only encouraging people like me to go out and do the unthinkable.

Clark Pingree [00:38:49] And that's to trust and live a straight life for fear of all this retribution. And time and time again, we're seeing over and over and over again this results in nothing but complete disaster. And many people have said, what about these same sex parents who are raising children?

Clark Pingree [00:39:09] Are those children going to turn up to grow up to be messed up? Are they going to be raised to be gay? My parents are about as heterosexual as it comes and I'm about as homosexual as it comes. So I'm still trying to find the link with that rationale. And in fact, all of my gay friends have heterosexual parents.

Clark Pingree [00:39:30] So obviously that doesn't hold any validity. I also think when I think of the, the families that I do know who are same sex parent families, these are parents who want these children very, very badly and have to go through a lot of trouble and a lot of turmoil and oftentimes a lot of persecution to get just one child or two children. And I think how loved is that child going to be when those parents are finally able to get those children? I think of another close co worker of mine who recently had a child, him and his partner, and this was after years of trying many different methods to get a child and they finally found a method that worked and they loved this child so much.

Clark Pingree [00:40:36] I sometimes get exhausted of hearing all about their daughter and how wonderful and how heavenly she is. But it's also very remarkable about how loved this child is. And I always stop and pause. You know, one experience I had about two years ago was when I was on vacation in Alaska. I was in a port town and I noticed a, a cruise ship that had pulled into port, that was a cruise ship of same sex families and their kids.

Clark Pingree [00:41:08] And what was so remarkable to me was when you saw these same sex parents getting off the boat and taking their kids. These were kids who were clearly disadvantaged in whatever their situation was as to how they came into this world. And it really made me pause to think how remarkable it is that gay and lesbian people aren't too good to adopt children who have been brought into this world under very, very disadvantageous circumstances. And so I think it's ever more remarkable that these children who are oftentimes probably overlooked by many of the mainstream couples have loving parents that will take them and, and give them a good life that they would never get anywhere else.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] And just real quick, some of the examples of these kids and what environments they were in before they were adopted.

Clark Pingree [00:42:03] So I think of one family that I know where one of their children, he was born from a mother who was addicted to meth and he has severe challenges as a result of being in the womb. That mother who was on meth and this couple adopted that child. And I am simply amazed at the level of patience and the amount of love they give this child because how challenging he is to raise things that have been done to his mind and his body as a result of being in the womb on meth. They've shown nothing but love and given this child more love than than his biological mom could have ever given him.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Who might have been straight.

Clark Pingree [00:42:51] Who might have been straight. Yeah, exactly. I think using the scriptures as the rebuttal towards same sex relationships, to me I don't see how that makes sense. You'll often hear, and I've heard this thrown in my face all my life, the Levitical code and the Old Testament talks about Sodom and Gomorrah and the evils of what's implied to be homosexuality. I don't know if we know exactly for sure if it's referring to homosexuality or if there were some other grievances or perceived grievances that were going on in that era that had nothing to do with homosexuality. So that's speculative from my perspective.

Clark Pingree [00:43:38] But let's say for example, that the Levitical code was specifically talking about homosexuality. The Levitical code also calls for us to put adulterers to death. It also justifies slavery. It also justifies racism and marrying off our 13 year old daughters.

Clark Pingree [00:43:57] There are a lot of things that were fulfilled in the law of Moses through Jesus Christ fulfilling those as we believe as Christians when he came in the New Testament. So it seems like people who use the scriptures as a rebuttal to homosexuality, it just seems awfully convenient to me because we seem to pick and choose pieces and nuggets from the Bible that we're going to adhere to that we're not going to adhere to. So until we start executing adulterers and people having affairs and until we re legalize slavery and work towards a more racist society, I just don't think there's any congruence in using scriptures to throw that in the face of a homosexual.

Clark Pingree [00:44:51] What's interesting to me, what about the New Testament? So the New Testament. What's interesting to me in the New Testament is if homosexuality was truly the demise of modern day society and this awful, abominable, horrid thing, I guess I thought Jesus probably would have mentioned it and he didn't. And I don't think you could even speculate or perpetuate anything that's canonized that Christ spoke, that had any reference to homosexuality.

Clark Pingree [00:45:27] You also, if you want to look at this from a Mormon perspective. So if we look at the Book of Mormon, which in Mormon doctrine is proclaimed to be the truest book on the face of the earth, again, if homosexuality is such a threat to our modern day society, and the Book of Mormon calls us to attention on many threats specifically to be aware of in the last days, why was homosexuality not called out and specifically named as one of those horrible demises in society? Psalm mentioned the Book of Mormon, some mentioned the Book of Mormon. As far as I've read, and I haven't heard anyone ever use a Book of Mormon passage to refute specifically homosexuality.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Okay, but we've got the words of Spencer W. Kimball and Joseph Felix Smith and Joseph F. Smith. I mean, that's what modern prophets are for because, you know, it's a modern, it's more of a modern issue. So that's all we need is Spencer V. Kimball and that's why we have modern prophets. Right.

Clark Pingree [00:46:41] I think that's where, you know, it does become a very difficult conversation to have in an LDS context because there have been statements made from church leaders about homosexuality. What's been interesting over time is these statements have evolved and they've evolved in a very positive way.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] How did they start out and where they.

Clark Pingree [00:47:04] Now I think if you pick up, for example, the Miracle of Forgiveness, that's a book that's pretty tough on, on homosexuality. And I think the church's approach today is not that harsh. So I think we've softened our approach. I think it's evolved more towards more tolerance, more love.

Clark Pingree [00:47:25] There still is the establishment by modern day prophets that the act of homosexuality is wrong and that gay marriage is wrong. And I think that makes it difficult to, you know, talk about this issue more openly. I think that, you know, the granting of blacks, the priesthood in the 70s and the issue of homosexuality are very pressing social issues of our times. I think the blacks and the priesthood was a pressing social issue that was dealt with. And I think that homosexuality is going to be, be a continued pressing issue that is going to ultimately, I think, have to be dealt with. I think that society is becoming more accepting of homosexuals.

Clark Pingree [00:48:20] And I think that that's going to continue to progress. I think that the LDS Church puts priority on a very specific definition of a family, a very specific definition of marriage. And I think that a lot of the core doctrines and a lot of the cultural stigmas revolve around that. I think that homosexuality does challenge that.

Clark Pingree [00:48:47] It does throw a real wrench into that mix that causes a lot of questions and a lot of unsurities. So I think that it's going to be, you know, if that ever happens, that will, I think, be a very long time before that happens. I think that's from my perspective, it makes me sad because I think people like me would love to be in the mainstream of the church and would love to be involved with the church for who they are and how they are as people pursuing the same path of benevolence and virtue as everybody else. But I think it's going to be a long haul.

Clark Pingree [00:49:32] My belief is that I am who I am, and I don't believe that I'm going to become a different person when I die in this life. I think that I will go on in the next life and be the exact same person that I am today. And I actually hold on to that belief from my LDS upbringing that when you die, your spirit stays intact and your soul and your spirit are intertwined and they don't change. You are the same person throughout eternity. And I've actually held onto that as one of my core beliefs. And I guess I just don't see myself as a heterosexual person when I'm not.

Hope, Identity, and Life Beyond the Church

Clark Pingree [00:50:17] I don't see how in the world when I die, how I'm just going to be magically transfigured into a heterosexual. It's just not who I am. Granted, my orientation doesn't define me, but it is a core makeup of my soul. It is who I love, it is who I connect with, it is who I interface with, it is who I have those special connections with.

Clark Pingree [00:50:44] And just like I don't think a heterosexual plans on dying and being transfigured immediately into a homosexual, I don't think that the inverse is going to happen with me. I think I'm this way for a reason, and I think I'm this way to stay. And I think that the one thing that I've learned that's been positive in my life is I'm okay with that. I'm happy to be who who I am. It's definitely a harder life in our existing world today.

Clark Pingree [00:51:14] It's one that Years ago I probably would have tried to do anything to not be in that situation and be straight. But it's who I am, it's what my experiences have made me and what my soul makeup is. And I just can't imagine myself anything different. And I really struggle with anyone trying to, trying to tell me that I should be somebody different than I am and who I'm happy to be.

Clark Pingree [00:51:39] My dream for homosexual, for homosexuals is that there won't be any notice of what a person's orientation is. That if you like the same sex or you like the opposite sex, great. No issue, non issue. You are who you are and you should be who you are. That's the dream world that I hope to someday live in. And I hope that that happens before my time is over in this life.

Clark Pingree [00:52:13] I'm concerned that it won't. For example, when you see with racism today, I think on the laws of the books and by our cultural norms, we've eradicated what people say and do with racism. But racism is still rampant in many people and in many parts of society they're just quiet about it, they don't openly express it. And so I think it's going to take many generations to purge out that same prejudice towards people who are not heterosexual and flush that out.

Clark Pingree [00:52:51] But I think come future generations, people just simply aren't going to care what someone's sexual orientation. I think people will care about what kind of person a person is and what kind of a life a person leads and what kind of values they aspire to and how they treat others and how they respect others. Whether they're gay, bisexual, straight won't matter.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] And so in the

Clark Pingree [00:53:21] Mormon ward, I dream of the day when someone who's gay can go to church and say I'm gay and have nobody even blink an eye at that. I think that's very long ways off, but that would be my dream.

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