Introducing the Panel and the Dateline Interview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. We're getting the band back together with one substitution. It's March 9, 2025, and we are here to talk about the new Lori Valow interview on Dateline with Keith Morrison. The interview was called the disturbing case of Lori Valow. And joining us on this Sunday morning is the band sans Mindy. So we've got Lauren Matthias. Hey, Lauren. Hey, Lauren. Of course you are joining us from hidden true crime YouTube channel and podcast. How are you feeling this Sunday morning?

Lauren Matthias [00:00:39] Hanging in there. How are you?

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Good. Thanks for joining us on last minute notice.

Lauren Matthias [00:00:44] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] We also have Meagan Connor, cousin of Lori Vallow from third verse Midlife Revolution. Hey, Meagan.

Meagan Connor [00:00:54] Hey. How's it going?

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Did you. Did you have a. What's it called, a daylight savings nightmare this morning?

Meagan Connor [00:01:03] I did. I had an. A nightmare early this morning that I woke up too late to get ready for the episode, and then I woke up and it was an hour later and. And the dream came true.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Well, glad you could join us. And. And Mindy, you've changed. That was a joke, Gerardo. No, Mindy, we always joke. We're getting the band back together. Do we have official band name yet?

Meagan Connor [00:01:28] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] So many nominations.

Lauren Matthias [00:01:31] There were some good ones. There were some good ones. Yeah. Keep them coming. I like them so much, I don't want to pick one because I just want to keep reading all the suggestions. They're so clever.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] All right, so viewers and listeners, if you want to name the band, we're still taking votes, but Mindy is. Is on a family vacation. But, but we're, you know, we are never disappointed to have Gerardo Samano with us. Gerardo, you're into true crime and you're into legal stuff and you've been following this case from the beginning. Is that right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:03] Yeah, that's right. I was actually, I've said this before, but I was actually in Rexburg, living in Rexburg, when. When all of these events were happening.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Yeah. Yeah. So it's going to be fun. So thanks for joining us.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] All right. So, yeah, this, this interview dropped for me. It was Sunday night. Was it 7:00pm Utah time? Is that right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:28] Yes, I believe that.

Meagan Connor [00:02:29] And it's Friday night.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Yeah, Friday night. What did I say last night? Friday night.

Meagan Connor [00:02:34] You said Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] Okay. Dang my brain. So Friday night, two hour interview dropped. I was super excited to hear, you know, what it was going to be about. Meagan, since you, since you are literally Lori Valo's cousin, you grew up with Her. You knew her. Why don't we have you start by just telling us your reactions sort of when you heard that this is going to happen and what you were hoping for and anything you want to say leading up to actually watching it. Is that all right?

Meagan Connor [00:03:08] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] And before I do that, we would like to ask everybody to please like this episode, please subscribe to this channel. And while you're at it, please subscribe to hidden true crime YouTube channel and midlife revolution or third verse YouTube channel as well. It turns out that comments and likes really help us grow our channels. So please do that, everyone. And with that. And of course, if you want to provide, those of you who are joining us on the live stream, we're always grateful for our monthly donors. They're our bread and butter. So thank you, monthly donors for your donations. If you're on the live chat and you want to make sure we see and read your comment or question, super chats are the best way to do that. Okay. Over to you, Meagan.

Panelists React to Learning About the Interview

Meagan Connor [00:03:58] Okay. So yeah, I was actually at thrive in St. George when I found out that this is interview was going to happen. I believe that it was Saturday morning of last week and I was actually with Maven Crusha K. Easton, who is Kay and Larry Woodcock's daughter, sent me a text and it was a post from her channel that she, she was posting about the interview happening. And I think I had a little bit of a frustrated outburst.

Meagan Connor [00:04:30] I'm always frustrated and angry and upset when Lori is grabbing more attention and more spotlight. So I think my initial reaction was really, you know, why Dateline? Why do we have to give her more of a platform? You know, but very quickly, of course, I understand. You know, DATELINE probably has wanted to interview her for a long time. I know she's wanted to go on Dateline for a long time.

Meagan Connor [00:04:56] And, you know, they are taking advantage of an opportunity just ahead of her trial, which I think is, you know, of course, it's an advantageous time for them to do it. So I understand. I was grateful in retrospect for the way it was treated. We can talk about that later. But just initially my reaction was anger and frustration followed by understanding for Dateline and also at least a hope that we would get a little bit of a glimpse of into where Lori's head is at now, which I think we did.

Meagan Connor [00:05:27] And, you know, then just sort of formulating over time what I thought she might talk about. And I think it became pretty obvious to me, as it probably did to most everyone, that she wanted to put out this narrative, the same one that she told Colby on the phone call that Colby recorded with her, where she blames everything on Ty. And I think Sheikh commented on this in the interview that she doesn't really know exactly what's being said about her and what's really out there in the press and the media. So she probably doesn't know that everybody has heard that phone call, or at least everyone following the case has heard Colby's thoughts on it, has heard my thoughts on it, has heard Crush's thoughts on it, has heard hidden true crimes thoughts on it.

Meagan Connor [00:06:08] You know, we've all kind of already commented on that narrative, so didn't expect there to be a whole lot of new information. All there was a little bit. So. So, yeah, those were just my. My initial thoughts. I was grateful to be able to listen to the interview with my channel members, with my little community that I've grown over there at third verse, and to have just supportive people around me to. To help me get through that, because otherwise it would have been pretty difficult. So I was grateful for that.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks. You know, we always have to check ourselves because there is such a fascination with this. It is such an interesting story. It's a national story, but we're talking about real people. We're talking about the death of two children. We're talking about so many family members impacted by this. And, Meagan, you're closer to all of that than any of us here, for sure, so that's why we're so grateful to have you on. But thank you.

Meagan Connor [00:07:14] Yeah, thank you. It's. It's always. It's always tough, you know, being pretty much the only family member speaking publicly with the lens of having left Mormonism. So I think seeing the family and being out of the family too, kind of distanced from everyone. Seeing the family for what it is, seeing the religion for what it is, and. And speaking openly about it. It's a lonely place sometimes, and it certainly is not something I ever thought I was going to have to deal with, but I'm trying to make the best of it by talking about how we can have healthier families and healthier religions and healthier relationships.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Yeah. Well, thank you. Julie wants me to mention that this is the 2000th Mormon Stories podcast episode, so it's kind of a fun anniversary of sorts. So Lauren and Meagan and Gerardo. I couldn't think of three people that I'd rather have on for our 2000th episode.

Lauren Matthias [00:08:11] I am honored. That is a really, really big deal. So Congratulations to Mormon Stories and I am flattered.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] And again, thanks to everyone joining us. So, Lauren, you were saying before we started today that this is probably, you'll probably know more about this case than any case you ever cover. Before we dive into actually our reactions to this episode, do you want to share your thoughts and feelings once you found out this was going to happen and watched the trailers and everything? I'd love to hear your insights.

Lauren Matthias [00:08:44] Yeah, yeah. I was privileged to learn that this was happening quite a while ago, months ago.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] Oh, yeah, you were interviewed. You were interviewed for it?

Lauren Matthias [00:08:52] Well, I was interviewed. I also was in. I was talking to the producer. I knew the very day it was happening. I knew the moment it was happening. I knew before Keith went in and I knew after. And I actually knew the sound bite about Dancing with the Stars. We got the inside info from Shane Bishop. He is the producer of all of the Day Bell Datelines. So he was keeping us posted. And, you know, it's a fast. It was a fascinating sort of behind the scenes process that we learned was going on. And then. And then, yes, they came out and they actually interviewed us for a different episode.

Lauren Matthias [00:09:28] But while we were with Keith, he asked us questions. Because I can genuinely say that Keith, Keith had a lot of questions after interviewing Lori. I think the reactions we saw with Keith Morrison there were real. They were unscripted. Like he was very frustrated in that interview and it was a difficult interview, I can only imagine. I think he did a great job. So, you know, I was definitely really interested in seeing what I'd been hearing about for months. And I was surprised. I thought I went in not knowing, you know, I just thought, okay, I know some of these sound bites. I know some of the things she said.

Lauren Matthias [00:10:06] We've seen her crazy sentencing speech. We've seen now her interview with her son Colby that he did on his Scar wars podcast. But I was still really taken aback. My, my, I was very surprised at the amount of anger I saw from her. And I know that sounds so funny because you're like, I'm sure some people are looking at me going like, what did you expect? But I did not expect. John, you used the word contempt. I did not expect that. Just contempt and just absolute anger just, you know, coming from her so strongly. I don't think we've. I haven't seen that before. I've seen manipulation.

Lauren Matthias [00:10:50] I've seen a mad woman. I've seen some crazy beliefs. I've seen denial. I've seen a personality disorder. This was new to me, this contempt this anger just.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] Keith. Keith. What do you think? Keith? Why do you want to know? Keith just. She kept repeating his name over and over again in a very contemptuous way. Meagan, you're smiling. Why are you smiling?

Meagan Connor [00:11:14] Just because.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] Right.

Meagan Connor [00:11:17] I did, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Have you seen that side of her, or was that a new side of her none of us have seen?

Meagan Connor [00:11:25] Well, I mean, the manipulative side, obviously. Yes, I've seen that. I think that the contemptuous side. Yes, absolutely. The difference is that this was very much more in your face than I think I've ever seen her. When she was younger, she kept these things much more covert, much more under the surface, but they were always there. And the thing that I'm smiling about is that tactic of constantly using Keith's name. You know, she had a way of trying to make you feel special and put you down at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] Wow, that's powerful. All right, Lauren, I didn't mean to steal the mic. I just. I was curious if Meagan had seen that just in her personal interactions. But keep.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:05] No, I. I was listening to Meagan for the very same reason. I want to know. And I thought that was really interesting, what Meagan just said about praising someone and putting them down at the same time with the.

Meagan Connor [00:12:17] Keith.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:17] Keith.

Meagan Connor [00:12:18] Keith.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:18] Yeah. Yeah, that's a. That's an interesting way to. To say it. I also think that, I mean, clearly she chose Keith Morrison to do this interview. Right. I mean, we haven't heard from Lori for five years on a TV interview. I should say we've heard from her, but not in a. In a, you know, national television interview. She clearly handpicked, chose Keith.

Meagan Connor [00:12:39] Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:12:42] You know, I think there's part of that, too. She knows that. She knew who Keith was. She knows that Keith is famous. I think she loved being in front of someone who. Yeah, the fame and then just talking to him, you know. Yeah. They're so patronizing. Right? Keith. Keith. Hey, Keith. Keith. Yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting what Keith.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Keith referred to the ethics of. Of interviewing her, I think. You know, can you talk to us about the. The journalistic. You know, you are a journalist. Lauren, can you tell us about some of the ethics that Keith was. Was mentioning and he's struggling with when deciding whether or not to give her a platform? You know, on the one hand, she's a murderer, likely, you know, convicted murderer. She's clearly trying to manipulate. And so on the one hand, you could say it's a. It's unethical to give her a platform. But on the other hand, I think I Heard him say, people want to know. Do you want to talk us through how a journalist might balance the ethics of even doing an interview like this?

Lauren Matthias [00:13:44] Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's fair for a lot of people to be upset watching this interview. Giving a woman who is convicted of murdering her own children, you know, and Tammy Dabel a platform. I actually completely understand that. And I cannot imagine being someone like Meagan that's, like, personally connected to this story or many of the other surviving victims that, you know, I know and become close to. Like, I'm sure it would feel really bad, too. I don't want to discount that. When I just go into my journalist brain, I. I am of the belief that there is something to learn from everyone. I mean, hidden True crime and why we cover crime is.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:28] And the criminals behind the crime, and we delve into their past, and we delve into their histories and a lot that actually rubs people the wrong way sometimes. They're like, how could you do that? And I'm like, you can't. You can't cover crime without understanding the criminal. And. And you don't really make a difference. If we just sum people up as, they're evil. We don't want to hear from them.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:49] You know, just banish them away, and let's move on with our lives. We're not really learning what happened or what's going on inside of their brains and their minds and what could have possibly created this crime. And so I think it's really, really important to interview everyone. And. And we've also gotten the same criticism on Hidden True Crime. I want to say, like, you know, for example, I've. I've interviewed many people without pushing back on them that maybe held Chad Daybell's beliefs or the prepping beliefs.

Lauren Matthias [00:15:25] I'll say this. Braxton, Southwick. That. Meagan, that's your cousin also. Lori Valo's cousin. I got a lot of pushback on the interview because I just listened to him, and he talked about a worldview that maybe offended some people or frightened some people or maybe that people thought was similar to Lori Valos. And I just let him talk and I listened. And I think that it is really important to actually learn and. And see things. A lot of people are like, can't you see that was so upsetting? He was doing this and this and this. And I want to say, exactly. So.

Meagan Connor [00:16:01] So you.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:02] So you caught something then, and you learned something from this interview without me having to push back.

Meagan Connor [00:16:08] You.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:09] You came out with your thoughts and your opinions on this as you just listened that you don't necessarily need someone to, you know, fight back with the person or to point out or get the aha moments or whatever. Just I think though, that it is so important to listen. And I know that Mormon Stories does that too. You listen to everyone. And I, you know, Ron Meldrum, you guys interviewed him and he actually is, he knew Chad Dabel and he, he sort of kind of goes into this crowd. And I remember, I think you got a lot of pushback for that too, John. And I remember thanking you for the interview because I am a big believer that there is something to learn from everyone if we're just willing to listen, good or bad.

Lauren Matthias [00:16:52] And I think Lori Valo is no exception, especially because her crimes are unfathomable. And so I think we should be paying attention, trying to figure out what the hell went wrong.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] Love it. Berardo, let me give you a chance to give your thoughts leading up to actually watching the interview, if there's anything you wanted to add.

Assessing Keith Morrison's Interview Approach

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:16] Yeah, well, I think I echo everyone's feelings. You know, I have great respect for Keith Morrison. I think he overall did a great job given, you know, the circumstances, given how frustrating it can be to deal with a person like Lori with a, you know, some clear narcissistic tendencies.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:36] I, I, I, I think I, I parse a little bit from, from the rest of the panel, maybe in, in this, that I do believe that the interview could have gone a lot different and maybe better have a better response from Lori if someone with a deep understanding of Mormonism and cold mind control would have done the interview.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:00] I have been thinking, you know, in ways that I would have approached it and I have some ideas that I can talk about throughout the interview and we can discuss and speculate how Lori might have responded differently. But that, that is one thing I did want to mention.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] I think about that every, every true crime or I mean, except hidden true crime, of course. But like when, when national reporters don't have an in depth knowledge of Mormonism on so many of these cases, whether it's Tim Ballard, whether it's Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt or this case or so many others, there's so much I think that gets missed. So we'll dig into that for sure.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Let me just share a couple comments. So Unexcited says virtual hug of support for Meagan. So there's a little love for Meagan. You called it hate watching. Is that right? Meagan, did I hear you right?

Meagan Connor [00:18:56] I did, I did. And I definitely got some pushback even from My partner, he was like, I don't think I've ever heard that word before. I was like, yeah, as in, I hate to watch it, but I'm gonna watch it.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Yeah. Amore. Let me see. Amore. Of Alessi described the interview as a microcosm of her tactics. What do you guys think? Did, did. Did the interview show us the real Lori Valow, maybe even in a way we hadn't fully seen before?

Lauren Matthias [00:19:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] You want to go first?

Lauren Matthias [00:19:33] No, I, I think absolutely. And I think that Keith showed us that. So, so well done, Keith Morrison. I think, again, it goes to that contempt that I saw, that anger. Like I said, we've all heard her say crazy things. We've all seen her manipulate, we've all seen her act in despicable ways, but I have never seen an anger that I think is murderous. In other words, that's full of hate.

Meagan Connor [00:19:58] Right?

Lauren Matthias [00:19:59] And Colby said that too, in the episode. What she, his own mother did to my sister Tyler was hate. And we, we saw. I saw how she could just hate. There was not, There was not a loving mother in this interview at all.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Isn't it kind of this weird almost. I, I would. There's a Mormon passive aggressiveness that I'm familiar with. It may not be uniquely Mormon, but it was hate with, like, this twisted, dark smile. She was always smiling with everything hateful. You never saw, like, rage in her face. It was always this, like, plastic, sticky, sweet smile when she was pulling the knife out.

Reading Lori's Demeanor and Presentation

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:41] I, I do think it's important to consider one point and the point of the circumstances. I think this is a. We, what we saw is a Lori or someone who is responding questions that are coming from a person, you know, from a person who is, who, who she's seeing as antagonistic to her religious beliefs. Lori is someone who is deep, has deeply rooted religious beliefs, and she's being confronted by an unbeliever. And she knows that she's never going to be able to convince Keith or his followers about her.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:17] Her religious beliefs, so. And so she sees him as kind of lesser. And it reminds me, I mean, even though, like, it. It could be like a big stretch, obviously Mormon missionaries are not always this way. I, I did see a little bit of, or could relate to when I was a Mormon missionary, and I interacted with people who were clearly antagonistic to Mormonism.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:41] And, you know, some of. Of the response of being kind of snarky and snappy. Even, even if you read, you go back and read how Joseph Smith sometimes interacted with people who were antagonistic to, to Mormon. Mormons beliefs. It was. It's kind of somewhat similar responses.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, from her perspective, it's fair to say she was seeing Keith as antagonistic. He's basically. I mean, I saw it as him just sharing the evidence of what. Because he was careful in the interview, whenever he would make an allegation to her or just relate the evidence, he would show the receipts. Right. But then she would say, well, I could tell you've been manipulated, Keith. I could tell you're just sharing the party line. Keith, were you there? Keith? Where was it? Keith? How do you know Keith? And then, and then he would show the little video clips. Right. And I think he substantiated his questions with evidence. What, what did you think, Meagan?

Meagan Connor [00:22:46] Yeah, I, I think that we did see the real Lori here. I think we saw. But as you said initially, this was a lesson in manipulation tactics. We saw her employing all of these different tactics throughout the interview, throughout the clips that we saw of her is masked with a smile. And, and that really is the ultimate manipulation because we as empathic people, we tend to mirror the people that we're talking to because it's a way of bonding and relating with them. And when a manipulator smiles at you, it's because they want that bond. They want you to smile too. So even though they're saying something disturbing or problematic or demeaning, they're going to still smile at you because they want you to believe that they're actually being nice when they're not.

Meagan Connor [00:23:35] And Lori sort of has this. People have commented on the sort of half smile, the little smirk that she does. She's always done that. I think it's more pronounced now that she maybe has had some, what we call filler migration.

Meagan Connor [00:23:50] But yeah, that little side, that side smile that she does is sort of like a half smirk where she kind of knows better than you, she's smarter than you. She's always done that.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Let me ask about that. One of the things that I think Mindy behind the scenes and I both noticed there seems something off maybe audibly and potentially, I'm not sure visually just in terms of. Well, we weren't sure and we don't. We don't think it's appropriate pretty much ever to comment on people's appearance from sort of the standpoint of just being tacky or critical. So I just want to be clear about that. But I think Mindy and I wondered whether she had had a stroke because we almost heard some slurring a different voice sound than we were used to. But then it also, I don't know if it looked there seems something visually different and none of us could really put a pinpoint on it.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] So I'm not asking from like an aging standpoint or like even a beauty standpoint, did any of y' all wonder whether there was something off with her health that was being manifested either in her appearance or her. Her voice?

Lauren Matthias [00:25:07] I. I thought of a few things and, and I, and I, I understand what you're saying. There was like a side speak. And so you're not bringing up the ageism. But I will, because it's fair game because she also. I just want to point out Lori claimed that she is an exalted being who had stopped aging. So fair game to say she's certainly aging.

Meagan Connor [00:25:27] So I'll.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:27] I'll say that you're wrong, Lori. You're not exalted. You're aging like the rest of us. A few thoughts. I did a Members Only live about it and there were some interesting comments from people because I did bring up sort of the side speaking. Dysplasia was one of them. That can be caused. It's a side effect of antipsychotic medications. I actually thought that was a really intriguing. Intriguing. A possibility. I know that Colby, her own son, brought up that it's just a lack of Botox behind bars, but I don't know if that would do it. Someone else said nerve damage from possible previous Botox. Other people brought up.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:05] Or I had an idea of possibly, you know, when we age, teeth can move. It could simply be just some stronger muscles on one side or a jaw. That's not even. But I think I was most intrigued by this idea of. Because I have seen that before, this sort of side effect of.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:26] Of antipsychotic medications or other medications, which doesn't mean that she's psychotic either. There are many reasons to take that medication. But it was certainly interesting to see, and I don't think we have seen that in other videos. So I do agree that she looked different beyond her natural aging process behind bars.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] Meagan, or anything you want to add?

Meagan Connor [00:26:51] Yeah, I mean, a lot of people have. Have commented or suggested that it might be Bell's palsy, which, if I understand correctly, is a temporary condition, you know, drooping of the face and things like that. I think the. The thing that stood out to me is that in her recent hearings where she asked the judge if she could represent herself, the judge granted her that, but he did put her through a series of questions and One of the questions that he asked is if she was taking any medication and she said no. Now, of course we know Lori lies about things, but I think she's been pretty straightforward with this judge so far, mainly just because she wants to get him on her side.

Meagan Connor [00:27:32] So I don't discount that. She could be taking antipsychotics or other medications that could be causing side effects like this. You know, we can, we can speculate. It could be, you know, Botox, nerve damage, Bell's palsy. I don't think necessarily she's had a stroke, but it's possible. Right? We just, these are things that we're not going to get a definitive answer on. But I think the most likely scenario is either she is on some kind of medication that is causing a little bit of a Slurpee in her speech or, you know, she's just aging. And I will say too, though, part of her tactic when she talks is that sometimes she will not be as concise with her speech.

Meagan Connor [00:28:17] I noticed this in the body cam footage when they, when they visited her apartment looking for jj and also in her phone call with Colby when she was talking about, you know, Tylee hates Melanie Gibb. Everybody knows this. She hates Melanie Gibb. She does that sort of thing, talking under her breath and slurring her words together a little bit as part of the way of manipulating people to not really pay close attention to some of the things she's saying.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] We've got a, this is great. We've got a comment from a medical esthetician. Alexander Lovin writes, I don't think it's filler migration for what it's worth, but I think not getting Botox or filler for six years, this is just what she looks like without upkeep. Thanks, Alexandra Levin, for that feedback.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] I want to thank those who are supporting us. Thanks Dive Urgent. Chantel Buccla. Sorry if I didn't pronounce that right. She says, been listening to all these Lori, Chad and Ruby podcasts recently. You are also wonderful and informative. Love listening and sharing your channel. Thank you, Chantel. Thanks for the feedback.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] Also, Clary T. Says, just a little thank you because your work and all of your perspectives are so important. Thank you as well to troublemaker Baker for your support and destiny. And then finally, couple more comments. Beth writes, I think Lori is laying groundwork to blame Ty Lee for Charles's death. Alex isn't here to contradict her and she has no shame. So let's go. Thank you, Beth Cote, for that.

Lori's Claims and the Evidence Against Her

John Dehlin [00:30:02] Let's just go Ahead and hit that right on. I had not watched Colby's YouTube stuff until Meagan, you linked to it right before, but I was certainly shocked. And this was probably one of the two big reveals for those who don't follow this closely, was that she literally seemed to be implicating to Keith that Tylee. Tell me if I've got this right, y', all, that Ty Lee was assigned to put JJ to bed, that she must have, like, put a pillow on his head, according to Lori. Or mouth. You know, hand over his mouth to keep him behaving or quiet, which then would have killed him.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] And again, these are horrible accusations, unless they're true and real, that Tylee killed JJ while putting him to bed and then was so distraught at having killed him that she took her own life. Shocking, horrific allegations. Obviously, it's. It seems like her only possible defense to the evidence that's out there. Maybe Meagan will have you respond, then Lauren, then Gerardo. What did y' all think of these accusations?

Meagan Connor [00:31:26] Yeah. So, I mean, obviously, this is super disturbing to have Lori try to blame everything on her own daughter, who she. Who she participated in the killing of. The first time that I heard that on the phone call on Colby's channel, of course I was really upset by that. It made me so angry. And at the end of the day, I mean, this is Lori. She's never going to take responsible for. Take responsibility for anything that she does. She's going to try to blame, you know, anyone else that she can. I think this is the narrative that she's come up with that she feels like she can stick with that absolves her conscious of having conscience, of actually having to think about what she really has done.

Lauren Matthias [00:32:11] And.

Meagan Connor [00:32:11] And I think she believes that it's plausible enough that it might get her, you know, it might keep her from getting convicted or blamed for everything. It's. It's super disturbing. It's hard for me to even really think about how. How she could get there in her mind. It's obviously crazy.

Meagan Connor [00:32:30] But, yes, that. That's her narrative, that she says that Tylee went to put JJ to bed. Maybe she held him down too hard trying to keep him quiet. And that Lori came in and found both of them already passed away, and then she left and allowed someone else to take care of them after that.

Meagan Connor [00:32:48] So, obviously, the evidence clearly goes completely 100% against all of this, because JJ was obviously alive after Ty, after the last time that Tyler was seen. So there's no way that. I mean, this can be easily disproven. But I think in Lori's mind, she just really believes that she's going to get away with all of this. She really believes that she's not going to be held accountable. She really believes that she did nothing wrong. And she just wants to insert that plausible deniability of what happened to their bodies by just saying, I wasn't there. Someone else took care of it.

John Dehlin [00:33:27] Lauren, what are your additional thoughts? If you want to tell people anything else we should know about the evidence for why just the evidence alone would contradict Lori's account. But I also want to just hear the thoughts on how horrific it would be for a mom to who. Who potentially committed a murder to blame that murder on her dead daughter. You know?

Lauren Matthias [00:33:50] Yeah, it's. It's despicable and evil on all sorts of levels. Yeah. The evidence absolutely contradicts this. First off, Tyler was killed first weeks before jj. So already complete contradiction. So you see, do we know that?

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Do we know that?

Lauren Matthias [00:34:09] We know that. We absolutely know that. That is factual. That is evidence. Tyler was last seen in Yellowstone National Park. It was the last photo. And then she disappears. But we see from satellite footage of that evening a, there is no burn pit in Chad Daybell's yard. And then the next morning, there is a burn pit that was shown in trial. We know that she was burned in Chad Dabel's yard that evening, that she went missing in Yellowstone National Park. We know. We know a lot. That is. That is facts. Those are facts that were shown in both Chad Dabel's trial and Lori's trial and in FOIA documents too. So already we know that Tyler was murdered weeks before jj.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:53] Yeah. I think there are several pieces of evidence that can the date the burial of. Of Tylee weeks before. So like you mentioned the satellite image, there's also the text messages about the raccoon and, and all that. Right. I kind of.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:09] Exactly.

Meagan Connor [00:35:11] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:11] Yeah, thank you, Gerardo. The raccoon text is an important one. Chad Dabel texts his wife Tammy, who's still alive at that moment, and says, well, I have had quite the morning. There was a raccoon that entered the yard and I shot the raccoon and I buried the raccoon in the. The in. In the pet cemetery. And then he eerily writes, I got rid of all of the limbs before the storm comes in. And I want you to know that many absolutely believe that he was talking literally because that's how Chad Dabel talks. That and. And Tyler was dismembered and he got rid of her Limbs in the burn pit. So. So, right. Gerardo. So much evidence pointing to. We know for a fact that Ty was

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:55] the Alex being, like, tracking his cell phone to the area where the. Where the burial happened. Also, the date corresponds to all of that. So. So there are several pieces.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:09] Is that right?

Lauren Matthias [00:36:11] Yeah. And. And I. I just want to throw out. I love having Gerardo as a band member.

Meagan Connor [00:36:14] Exactly.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:16] Yes. Yes. Welcome, Gerardo. Glad you're here.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Wait, is he an official band member or is he an altern? Like, it's a serious deal to add someone to the band, so. And does Minnie get a vote, like, or.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:29] Or inefficiency? Unofficial for now.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] Okay. All right.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:34] We'll sustain him next week. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] No, we're just teasing. Laura, what do you think about a mom shamelessly blaming her daughter for a murder that she committed?

Lauren Matthias [00:36:43] Yeah, well, so. So evidence points to factually. This is just. Just preposterous. It's just wrong. It's just false and wrong. I also want to point out something that I know that not everyone understands. But this alibi of Lori, let's call it an alibi. That is what it is, has not changed. And not everyone knows that. Back right before her trial in 2023, she. She wrote out her alibi with her attorney's help, her defense team, and it was very discreet. And people didn't really understand stand or, like, look at the fine print because you. You know, sort of that less is more like they didn't tell the whole story.

Lauren Matthias [00:37:24] Because I think her defense knew better than to go with this alibi of Lori's, that Tyler, her own daughter, the victim of a horrendous crime, was responsible. But she wrote in this alibi, and I was trying to pull it up. I have it here. But she stated that she walked into Alex Cox's apartment or townhouse in Rexburg and found both JJ and Tyler deceased and that Melanie Gibb and David Warwick were in town at that time attending the Firm Expo Rod Meldrum's event, and they were recording a fireside. And this just sort of happened.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:06] Then once she came out with more specific details, details after her trial, after her conviction, after her sentencing, on. On her son Colby's channel, doing an interview specifically stating, no, Tylee killed JJ and then Tyler killed herself. That we hadn't heard. So I did reach out to her defense team and asked them, I said, has this always been her story or has this changed and developed? And the answer from. From my defense source was, no, this is what she has always stated and always said Something her defense made sure didn't come out in court.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:49] Wow.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:50] So. So we know that her story hasn't changed. And it's, it's absolutely shocking, appalling, disgusting. I mean, I'm literally, I'm doing this with my hand, probably making a noise with the thing. And I'm doing, ironically, on this book, the socio path Next Door. I mean, please.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Yeah, please.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:10] Well, I want, I just, it's just, I mean, it's so beyond human comprehension that there's only one way to explain it in my mind, and that's through understanding sociopaths and psychopaths, where they will literally blame anyone, including the victim. And then I just want to say this about Tyler, too. What came out in trial about Tyler's death is so horrendous. I, I won't get into the details here. I, I can't even. Sometimes I feel physically ill. But Tyler's death was, Was not. Was really, really, really bad. It was disgusting. It was horrendous. What happened to Tylee, I believe that she was a victim of torture during her death.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:54] I'll just say that I, I think she was tortured by at least two people. It was really bad. And so to then imply that she did this is so despicable. Like, it's, it's so bad. And I, and I just, I feel so sorry for Colby and the other victims who have to then hear Colby. Let's talk about Colby. Who has to then hear his mother. He is mourning his entire family. His entire family is just gone. And then to blame his innocent little sister after everything she went through is. I can't. This is horrible.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] No, at the end, at the end of the interview, he was. I, I think I remember him sobbing, and it was like he was trying to entertain whether or not it was true. And then he concludes. I can't believe that. But he was really trying to even process it and consider it, but then trying to think that his sister could do that. I would, I. Did either of you see Colby's response? And do you want to share what that was? I wish we could have him on at some point, maybe. Did you see his response?

Meagan Connor [00:41:16] I did, yeah. I, I, I watched his, his interview with Lori, his recorded phone call with Lori on his. And it was heartbreaking. It was heartbreaking to watch him have to go through that. I could definitely see the anger in his face when Laurie started describing that version of events and him recounting that to her, just confirming that this is what she was saying. And then after the phone call, you Know, hangs up and Colby comes on and he. And he's crying, you know, he's devastated.

Meagan Connor [00:41:55] He was. This was sort of his last chance to connect with his mom and to see if the real Lori was still in there somewhere, and she's not. And I was, I was in awe of him being able to keep his composure while he was actually on the phone with her, because I was infuriated. I was enraged. I can't imagine how he must have felt. He must have felt that, you know, times 10. But for him to be able to keep his composure, closure, and get done what he set out to do, which was to see exactly her explanation, he wanted to hear it from her, exactly what she was, the narrative that she was putting out there of what happened to the kids.

Meagan Connor [00:42:37] And he got that done, and then he was able to tell her, no, you can't be in my life. No, you can't be in my kids lives after this. Your explanation, your. Your zero remorse, no, you can't have any contact with me after this.

Meagan Connor [00:42:56] And then just to see him, you know, breaking down, I don't, I don't think he believes it for a second that that's what Tyler did. And he even said that on the phone call. There's no way that Tylee did this. He. He said that on the. Sorry. On the interview after talking about the phone call. There's no way that Tylee did this. And I think the, the emotional reaction, the tears that we're seeing from him is a settling in, like the finality of that relationship coming to an end and the, the acceptance that he's never going to have a mom.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:30] Yeah.

Colby's Reaction and Lori's Love for Chad

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Did, did any of you see Colby's reaction to the Dateline episode?

Lauren Matthias [00:43:36] I started to watch it last night. I just got to the part, but, but not much. I got to the part where he was mocking the 31 lives that Chad and his mother had had and then said, oh, who were you? Who was the family guy? The Griffith Griffin?

Meagan Connor [00:43:55] Peter Griffin.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:56] Peter Griffin. He said, oh, what were you, Peter Griffin in the past life? And then we had to go to dinner. But, but that alone, I was proud of, of that response. You know, if you don't laugh, you cry sometimes. So I don't know his. I have not watched it. It's about an hour on his channel, the Scar wars podcast for Colby ryan. It's on YouTube. So I jumped on, saw him at least have a bit of a sense of humor, mocking both his mother and Chad Daybell. That made me happy. And I did not see the Rest of it. But yeah, so. So Colby just sort of implied that Chad was probably Peter Griffin and another life.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] So Tiger Lily says Colby is going to cut up clips to respond to and do a better reaction show. Okay, so that may be forthcoming. Go ahead.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:43] I have a question for everyone, and something that I thought was really interesting was it was clear that she's still deeply in love with Chad. She sees him as Lori. Yeah, Lori is. And I wanted to. We'll ask if we know whether Lori is aware that Chad basically threw her under the bus during his defense at his criminal trial.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:20] Yes, people have. I have my sources and. And I've seen some things people have tried to tell her while she's been behind bars. And her response. I. I've seen her responses. Her response has been that people don't understand court. It's a lot of. He says, she said a lot of, you know, the legalese and. And the legal procedures. People don't really understand. It's not what you think. And she.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] What, she's in denial, basically?

Lauren Matthias [00:45:59] Well, I think everything's in denial. I think she really does believe that they are together. I mean, he didn't even wear a. A wedding ring during the trial where she does. I mean, it might be a makeshift wedding ring, you know, with elastic hair ties, but she makes sure to show that she is married. She wants to be called Lori Daybell.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:17] He is distancing himself from her. But when people have tried to say that, you know, she is. He is throwing her under the bus. She thinks it's the attorneys. She thinks it's all just sort of procedure. You brought up denial. I think her entire worldview is denial, and I think she really believes it. And we're going to get into that. We talk about how she's lying and she's making things up and she's blaming Tyler, and she has these beliefs that are just insane. I think she believes it all. And I think she believes it all because of denial. Like, she can't. I mean, she's been diagnosed with delusional disorder, and I think that comes from this sort of denial.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:57] You become delusional when you refuse to see reality. And so she. She is not listening to people, and she is the one that knows everything. She is all knowing, all understanding. All of us are just, you know, peasants and poppers who just don't get it. So she pretty much schools people who bring up to her that Chad is throwing her under the bus. We don't understand. She understands, and I'm sure we'll understand. More when she's on Dancing with the Stars.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] Well, that was, that was dark. Okay, so yeah, let's jump to that. So I'll just say some of the things that were disturbing for me. She's claiming that she gets visits from Jesus. That Jesus, you know, well, well, she claims that during I guess Ty Lee's birth that she died in childbirth, kind of this, you know, co opting the near death experience sort of situation.

Evaluating Lori's Visions and Spiritual Claims

John Dehlin [00:47:58] That she was caught up to talk to Jesus. That she found out that Tylee was going to have lots of medical complications before Ty Lee was even born and that she was able to visit with Tylee as a spirit child.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] It's almost like this dark Saturday's warrior. It's like a dark murderous Saturday's warrior reframe where she's talking to Ty Lee in the preexistence before she's born. Tyler says, I know I'm going to come to earth. I know my life is going to be short. I mean, presumably I know I'm going to die by suicide at 16 after I murder my brother. Like I wonder if Tyler saw that in the preexistence. I don't know if Laurie totally thought that through because on the one hand, why would Ty Lee agree to come to the earth knowing that she would die early, but then at the same time later when she actually dies, it's by suicide after you have to murder her or killed, maybe unintentionally her brother.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] But anyway, that Tylee agreed to an early death before she even came to this earth again. That Laurie and Jesus are besties. She joked that she was Jesus's favorite, that she wants to have a bumper sticker that says Jesus loves everyone but I'm his favorite or something like that. But also that she's got a, you know, she's best friends with Tammy Daybell, the, the murdered wife of, of her lover.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] And, and also that, that Jesus has shown her that she and Chad are going to be exonerated and that they're going to be set free. So, you know, there's this question of does she really believe that Jesus is visiting her, that she's hanging out with Tammy in the jail cell is a spirit that she's seen visions of the future.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] Lauren, you. You said you wanted to make sure and cover this, so I'm going to give you first go. But then Gerardo and Meagan, I want to hear, does she really believe these spiritual visitations? Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:50:15] I think she absolutely believes them. I do think that it is caused by denial and her refusal to ever be wrong and she couldn't handle the truth. It's defense mechanism. By explaining this, I'm not excusing her. It's despicable and, you know, psychotic. She, I think, really does believe it. And I just want to say how appalling it is to say too that she is friends with Tammy Dabel. She is the mistress that had Tammy Dabel murdered. And to say that she is friends with her is so offensive, just so offensive. I can't even imagine, you know, how Tammy's family feels hearing that. But I am in the camp of yes, Lori Valo believes everything she is spouting.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] Wow. I'm just starting right now. YouTube has the feature of polls. And so I just kicked off a YouTube poll to ask our audience whether they believe that Lori believes that these visions are real. So I'm going to ask you all on YouTube to go ahead and vote and then we'll share your, we'll share the reactions and we also love to see your comments about that. Anytime you like an episode, subscribe to the channel or comment, it's going to help this get disseminated more widely. So Lauren's voting yes. Gerardo, you're, you're a Mormon Stories, you know, heavy participant. What do you think? Do you think she really believes it or she's just making it all up?

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:08] Yeah, well, I, I think, I agree with Lauren. I believe, I think she truly believes

Meagan Connor [00:52:14] everything

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:16] she, you know, I think like, I mean, said she could have been experiencing delusional disorder where she, you know, becomes more entrenched in a belief that she, that she lost touch with reality. But the, the problem is that we, we know that a lot of these beliefs are highly strategic, manipulative and also they seem to be pretty self aware. And I, I think that suggests that there is not totally fully delusional. That there's definitely. We can see that there's a lack of remorse and extreme self importance and, and she has an ability to lie without hesitation. I, I think, you know, that that correlates a lot more with a narcissist, Narcissistic personality disorder. But, but yeah, I mean, I think she, she believes her lies and she believes that, that you know, her theology.

John Dehlin [00:53:19] I mean, and, and I want to get you in with this, Meagan too, but as I'm thinking about my Mormon experience, like I, I, you know, heard about Moroni's challenge that if you pray about the Book of Mormon, God will give you an answer.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] So I read the Book of Mormon and I prayed about it and I Didn't get an answer. And I didn't lie to people that I got an answer. I just said, well, I didn't get an answer. So what if she really does believe it? Then she would have had to have had those experiences where, I mean, unless y' all believe that Jesus really did appear to her and that Tammy really does hang out with her, let's just assume we all don't believe that Jesus and Tammy and Laurie are all having a gabfest in her prison cell. So given that we don't think that's likely, then, then your theory, Lauren or Gerardo would be that she literally is having these dreams or visions that Jesus is appearing to her, Tammy's appearing to her that.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] That she hung out with Ty Lee as a near death experience and that she really had those experiences and believes that she had those experiences. And that's hard to believe that she really believes she had those experiences versus just, it seems like make her making it up is the easiest answer. Meagan, we haven't given you a chance to respond, but then I want to hear people respond to that. And right now, by the way, the vote, 481 out of the. There's 3,500 people on this live stream so far.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] 485 of you have voted and 67% of you say that she really believes she had the visions. And 33% of you who voted think she's lying. All right, Meagan, let's get you in here.

Meagan Connor [00:55:11] Well, I mean, let's start off by saying that Lori is a pathological liar. She's lied about obviously so many things. And I think this interview really brings that out because in the face of Keith Morrison giving Laurie actual receipts, where one example is where Keith Morrison talks about Charles being possessed by a demon named Ned Schneider.

Meagan Connor [00:55:38] And Laurie says, did you hear him say that? And he said, well, yeah, I see the, I saw the body cam footage. You know, I heard him say those words. Even in the face of that, you know, very telling evidence, Laurie still wants to delude anyone who will believe her into, into accepting her narrative of events or believing something different. So we know that she's a pathological liar.

Meagan Connor [00:56:04] But also there's a phenomenon where you can delude yourself. You can convince yourself that something is true when it's not true. So I think she has deluded herself that she has seen Jesus. I think she's deluded herself that Chad actually is a prophet. I think she's deluded herself that she has a special mission to gather the 144,000. I think she's deluded herself that she and Chad have done nothing wrong and will be exonerated because they're on this special mission from God. So I think one can convince oneself of things that are not true and I think that's what she has done in this case. There is also, I just want to go back real quickly to people saying is she deeply in love with Chad?

Meagan Connor [00:56:48] And they're still communicating. They, you know, Keith alleged in one of his. You sort of unpack recap of the interview afterwards that they're writing letters to each other so they're communicating. But Lori's not capable of love in the way that, that most normal people would define love as in. And an attachment to someone, a security with them and a desire for their happiness and their well being. Lori's not capable of that kind of a connection. So when people talk about, you know, she still loves Chad, she's still wearing the wedding ring. Well, she's still wearing her little, you know, hair tie around her finger to let people know she is still very much Daybell.

Meagan Connor [00:57:32] She wants to be Daybell because that gives her an elevated status to be married to a prophet or somebody she believes is a God who was the Holy Ghost in a past life. So she is always going to do and say the things that are going to elevate her status above everyone else and that are going to try to manipulate people into believing that she is this glorified being who has a special mission. That's always what she's going to do. All of that being said, there are always these little moments that I see just after she tells Keith one of her lies, she sort of looks down and her face falls a little bit.

Meagan Connor [00:58:13] The mask slips just a little bit. So I do think that the real Laurie is still in there somewhere. And I think that the real Laurie knows that she's lying, that she's manipulating, but this is what she has to do given the circumstances of where she is right now in her life.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Any other comments on the topic?

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:35] There's, there's also a middle ground here. I, I think you, you're putting it in, John, whether, you know, does Lori believe she's literally meeting Jesus and talking to him and being friends with, with, with Tammy and Tyler, or is she, you know, is she lying to everybody and not doesn't really believe it? I think there is a middle ground where she could believe this is happening. You know, she's talking to Jesus, but not in the, in the sense that we imagine she's believing she's, she's talking to Jesus. An example of this, I think, is the, the, the portal theology that Chad, they both came up with where, you know, they believe that they, they, the certain people, especially him and Lori, could use spiritual portals to communicate with, with the spirit world.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:30] And Lori claimed that she had a portal in her closet at her home in Reichsburg where she can kind of spiritual, spiritually connect with Chad. And I think this, this shows way, way before the murders that they are people that are willing to believe these things because they might feel some kind of impression or feeling that this thing is working.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:56] Not in the, in the sense that, you know, you and I might, might believe is actually working. I don't know if that, if that makes sense. But you know, think about how Mormon prophets today, when they talk about communicating with Jesus and receiving revelation, most Mormons, a lot of Mormons couldn't would interpret that as like, oh, they're actually talking to Jesus, when in reality that's not what's on Mormon prophets minds today. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:00:26] Yeah. Lauren, any final comments you want to make?

Psychopathy, Pathological Lying, and Belief

Lauren Matthias [01:00:29] Yeah, yeah, I don't, you know. Yes. So many things. First off, I wanted to correct one of something I said. I said that she was psychotic. I meant psychopathic. It is, I think psychopathic to say that didn't happen. That's not true.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:47] That, you know, with evidence right in front of your face. That's what psychopaths do. And, and no, she didn't really have visions. But it's sort of like when we were talking about Kevin, Frankie and the documentary. Like, he wanted to believe that he was seeing things flying across the room. He wanted to believe. He said, I'm an engineer and I can't explain it. He wanted to believe it. He wanted that smudge on the window to be a handprint from a demon. So when you want something, you're gonna believe it. And there was this moment in the Frankie documentary too, where Kevin says what was in front of my face looking at it.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:28] You know, my, my abused children, the photos of my children, absolutely abused and tortured. Wasn't what it was in my brain. And wasn't. It wasn't the reality in my brain what I was looking at? And he couldn't compute it. He couldn't. He like, refused. So this idea, I always say, people always say that seeing is believing and it's not true. Believing is actually seen. The way we believe is the way we will see. If you want to believe something, then it's incredible what a mind can do. It's actually frightening too.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:59] And I think that you have to look at, let's, let's call it what it is. It's terrorism. I mean this was a murder spree across state hates. That's terrorism in the name of beliefs. And terrorism comes from extreme religious beliefs, extremism that people believe that, that they will die for that. You know, call it what it is and say, I, I think we need to address this, that, that minds are an incredible thing. And if you want to believe something and seeing isn't necessary, believing, believing is seen even with evidence right in front of your face. And I think to me that's been the most frightening thing as a journalist looking at this world and looking how we're computing information and receiving information, you know, and watching how politicians deny what's really going on in this world when we, you know, evidence says it ourselves like, no, this really happened and people just believe what they want to believe.

Lauren Matthias [01:02:58] And so Lori Valo, I think is a representative of sort of this world that we live in where if you want to believe something, you can believe it. And I, and I say this because I think we all need to kind of check ourselves and start believing evidence a little bit more. But you know, it's not, we've seen this time and time again with history. We believe what we want to believe and maybe we shouldn't. And then I, and then I just want to say with Gerardo bringing up the portals and John you bringing up the near death experience in childbirth and me bringing up the aging backwards, these are also the books that Lori Valla was reading.

Lauren Matthias [01:03:37] All of those things are found in the Visions of Glory by John Pontius and Tom Harrison that, that Lori Vala was reading poolside when she was confronted by Hawaii police. This is a world view that she is believing. So yes, she is creating and manipulating things in her brain to have excuses as, as we point out, like, oh, this is going to really work in my favor if it's my daughter's fault. And, and this is, this is good.

Lauren Matthias [01:04:08] And so she's manipulative and she's lying. But you know, this is also a worldview and, and her perception is this greater worldview that I think is really sort of important to point out and, and address.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:24] Yeah. Think about when members of the LDS Church, you know, stand up once a month in sacrament meeting and they, they say, I know the church is true. You know, I think everyone outside of Mormonism would know that that phrase doesn't necessarily mean they have an actual knowledge in the empirical sense. What it often means is they feel something deeply. You know, they want it to be true. They have had an emotional experience and that they experience that they interpret as confirming it's true. And I, I see somewhat a similarity here with when Lori's talking about these things that to us sound crazy, you know, like talking to Jesus. Like, you know, if we could really put ourselves in her head, I don't think she would see it the same way we're imagining she's talking to Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Love it. Let me just thank all the people that are that have liked this episode and subscribed. Thanks to all the super chats. We're going to get to all the super chats. I may save them either for different parts of the episode or a little bit towards the end because I don't want to disrupt the flow of the conversation just to show a bunch of super chats, but just know they're going to come. I did a second poll. So the. So the first poll, I closed it after 739 voids. So by the way, somebody said, I'm yelling. I'll try not to yell into the microphone.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] It's hard. After 739 votes, the final tally is 66% believe that Lori actually believes her visions. 33% do not believe that. I've now put up a new poll, and the new poll is, does Chad actually believe he and Lori will be saved by Jesus? And also, you know, in all these visions and divine intervention and all this, and weirdly, tell me if y' all think this is weird. It's the exact opposite with our audience.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] 64% of you do not believe that Chad believes that they will be saved by Jesus or that Jesus is behind all of this. And 36, only 35% of you think Chad is a true believer. Does, does that surprise any of our panelists that our viewers have the exact opposite view of Chad? Let's hear it. Or me. Could you go first?

Meagan Connor [01:06:49] No, it doesn't surprise me because I, I agree. I don't think Chad believes it. I just the look on his face and his body expression, his body language, his demeanor, his expression during his trial and especially during his sentencing.

Meagan Connor [01:07:07] I, I believe that he had some, forgive the expression, come to Jesus moments there where he's. He's facing the reality of the death penalty. Lori's not. And so for him, I think maybe this is a lot more real for him. The reality that, you know, of what they actually did, the reality that, you know, he was making this all up. He was delusional. I think he did a lot of this stuff to. To get Lori's attention.

Meagan Connor [01:07:36] He changed his. His tune a little bit when Julie Rose started to get recognition for having a near death experience. Then all of a sudden, oh, his was a near death experience too. And then, you know, his books that were fiction before suddenly became real because he knew that that gives him, again, some elevated status within the church community and within the prepper community of, you know, having these visions. I think he knows more than Lori does that he has manufactured a lot of this and that he did it in order to get closer to Lori and to, you know, the whole money, power, sex thing.

Meagan Connor [01:08:18] I think that Chad has a recognition of his own delusion and that it did exist. I don't think he's deluded anymore. I think he has a recognition of his guilt. So I. Yeah, I agree. I agree with the viewers. I don't think Chad believes it the way that Lori does.

John Dehlin [01:08:36] Gerardo and Lauren. Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:41] I agree. I agree with me.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] Okay. Okay, Lauren. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:47] Yeah, I. I think when it comes to Chad, because this has been a discussion I've been having with my husband for five years, like, where, just so you know, where my husband is, a criminal psychologist, is. He believes that Chad does believe it, but he. He believes that sort of like Meagan said, that he's convinced himself of it through sort of, like, as things have progressed, like, he was very manipulative and, you know, BSing his way through this and then was just like, wow, like, this is real. I'm believing this. Like, look at me. I'm the man. Look at this, you know, woman I'm with.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:27] I think, for me, the question with Chad's belief is where do his beliefs end and begin? Because we know. Or I believe that he believes in Mormonism. I believe that he believes in his political worldview. I believe that he believes in dark and light.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:45] I believe that. I think he believes some people are taken by evil spirits. Right when I hear and go to attend his trial and I see him manipulating Lori with texts as she writes, and he says, oh, yeah, you can control the elements, babe. And, you know, you're the greatest of all things, and Jesus loves you most, babe, and you're a goddess. Like, I don't know if he believes that. Like, is he just BSing this woman? Do, you know, sleep with her, maybe? So I think, for me, the question with Chad is where did his beliefs end and where do they begin? And I do believe that he has some very extreme religious beliefs.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:26] I believe that when he was Giving that speech the day he met Lori Valo. And he's talking about the Second Coming and how people are going to actually travel to Ivan's, where Jody Hildebrandt is. And he mentions that, you know, Ivan's is going to be a place, and they're going to travel up, and then they're going to. There's going to be this Mecca in Rexburg, and that's why he's there. And he moved his whole family there. And he did. He moved his entire family there. Like. Like, I think that's a belief. I think he believes these extreme beliefs to.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:51] Then he. He meets this hot blonde girl who's, by his words, you know, hot and loaded. At that point, does he start manipulating and know he's not a prophet, or is he convincing himself he is, too? For me, the eternal question is, where do his extreme beliefs begin and where do they end?

Keith's Storytelling Choices and Interview Tactics

John Dehlin [01:11:19] All right, let me now go to asking you all. You know, Keith, basically the first, I'd say three fourths of the two hours, was him just retelling the entire story. There were a couple points that really stuck out to me. But I'm curious, Lauren and Meagan and Gerardo, were there any points of the retelling that were particularly new or interesting to any of you before I bring out the ones that I want to bring out in terms of just the evidence shown, the videos shown, Lori's reaction. Anything y' all want to highlight, or should I just start mentioning some.

Meagan Connor [01:12:03] Yeah, go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:04] Mention.

John Dehlin [01:12:05] Okay, so the video portion. Let's see where they show Chad. And is it Lori bringing in the spare tire from the. From the automobile and then the chair from the automobile, and then they kind of walk out, and I guess it makes a reference to Chad touching Lori in a special way. Sorry. Yeah. And then, you know, they're basically insinuating that they're prepping the car for an assassination attempt. Had y' all seen that footage before? And was that surprising to you at all?

Meagan Connor [01:12:48] Yeah, we've seen that before. And this was. This was brought out, actually, during Lori's trial where they're, you know, she Googled how to remove. Or Alex Googled how to remove the back seat of a Jeep. And then they show this footage of them coming into the storage unit. You know, Chad is. Is helping her bring the tire in and then bring the back seat in. And then Alex is seen the next day taking the tire out, taking the back seat back out to put it back in the Jeep. So we. We've seen that one before. I don't think I noticed Chad patting her on the butt, though. I don't think I noticed that one before.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:29] My favorite part of that footage, yes, we have seen it before, but this. This always. I always enjoy pointing this out, that when Chad is removing the attire and as you say, John touching Lori in a special way as he's removing the tire, to. To, you know, he is rolling it. Chad has to roll it. And then when Alex is putting it back, he actually carries the tire. And that's just a little detail that I. I love to point out, too, that, you know, Chad can't even lift the tire, that Alex can. So once again, not a God, not a prophet, can't even lift a tire.

Meagan Connor [01:14:08] But, yeah, I always find that really funny too, Lauren. And thanks for pointing that out because, yeah, you know, if he. If he was really a God, don't you think he'd have, you know, some special strength at least where he could, you know, lifted car tire?

Lauren Matthias [01:14:24] Right. Well, Peter Griffiths, it goes to the Peter Griffith, you know, like, what in the world did she see in him? He couldn't even lift the tire. Like, people can't wrap our brains around what she saw in Chad. And it's just one other, like, little subtle thing. Like, her brother can lift the tire and Chad can't. Like, what's he good for if he can't even lift a Jeep tire?

John Dehlin [01:14:42] Sorry, he's a little bit schlubby. I have to admit that. Okay, maybe the most confrontational part of the whole episode was when Keith just flat on asks her, you know, were you there with them, you know, when they died? And she's like, which place? Which place? You don't know Keith. You don't even know what you're talking about. And he, like, got serious and he. He basically said, did you watch your children die? And then she says, that's a terrible question. But then, what's that? A sad question.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:15] I thought that was an interesting just adjective she used. So, yeah, sad question.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] And then she. And then she ended up saying no. What did y' all think to that exchange? Lauren, let's have you go first since you. You jumped in.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:27] Yeah, I actually thought that was a really poignant moment because she is so full of contempt and anger. And so for her to use the word sad actually struck me when she said, that's a sad question. That almost felt like, oh, did we just see Lori, like, use a bit of emotion?

Lauren Matthias [01:15:45] You know, did we just see a crack in that mask where, like, she can't go there because that's sad. And it took me back to a day at her trial. Again, I attended every day of her trial, and there was very, very little emotion from Lori. She flirted with her attorney. She smiled, she laughed. She.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:05] Very flippant. And that was something that everybody in. At her trial noticed. But there was this one day in trial, and it was the day they were going to show her children's autopsies. And all of a sudden, we come back from recess, and nothing's happening. Nothing's happening. Lori's not showing up. And she finally, finally comes out very angry and distraught and upset. And her attorneys have to argue that Lori feels like she shouldn't have to be in the courtroom when the autopsies of her children are shown. And everyone sort of gasped like. Like. Like, you know, it's just like, if. If this person can't get more despicable, she just did it right.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:42] Like, you're gonna force this jury and all of us to look at these autopsies of your children. You are here because of these autopsies of your children. Like, it is just. It is just horrendous what has happened to your children. And you think that you shouldn't have to look at them when all of us are going to have to see them. And this jury, these innocent people here deciding your fate, are gonna have to look at them like. Like, it was just this moment of. Just like, how dare she?

Lauren Matthias [01:17:09] And then the judge ruled, of course, that she had to be there. And through the rest of that day in trial, she sort of pouted and looked sad and wouldn't look at the screen and look down. And although we were all upset, and I was upset, I then watched Chad Daybell's trial where he just watched the autopsies with no issues, checked him out, looked at his deceased wife. I. We were sitting. A group of us were sitting behind Chad Dabel as he scrolled pictures of Tammy dead without making an emotion. And after seeing that, I was like, oh, my gosh, like, now, like, the whole Lori thing doesn't seem so bad that she didn't want to see autopsy photos of her children.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:54] And so for this moment of her saying, oh, that's a sad question, I just wonder if that was just like a slip of. Like, of just like, yeah, like, that makes her sad. And that's where her denial comes from. And now I'm going full circle. She is an absolute denial because she cannot handle the truth. And then, of course, that moment of, oh, that's a sad question. She dacked being super angry and defiant. So it was just this sliver of a moment, and I thought that. Is that where her denial is coming from? She just can't go there.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] Yeah. Gerardo, did you want to add something?

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:33] I. I think I. I agree with Lauren. That's a really good assessment as to how she decides, you know, where. Where the.

John Dehlin [01:18:45] How.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:46] How her emotions can drive the. Her worldview and. And. And then come up with ways to justify this horrific events.

John Dehlin [01:19:00] Meagan, anything you want to add about that, that exchange?

Meagan Connor [01:19:03] Yeah, yeah, I agree with Lauren's assessment as well. I just want to point out, though, that, you know, everything that we heard from. From Lori, her responses to Keith's questions, it's all part of that delusional manipulation. She's answering questions with questions. She's trying to obfuscate by, you know, re asking, you know, in what place were you there? In what place? Where do you think it happened? Keith, what are you saying? Keith? You know, just trying to steer everything back to her giving the narrative that she wants again, Keith saying, like, she had an agenda. It was to put forward this story. And that's where she keeps trying to steer it back to just trying to take back the interview from Keith to say, you know, I'm trying to tell you the truth, and you don't want to listen.

Meagan Connor [01:19:51] You know, stop asking me these questions so that I can tell you my truth, you know. But we do see sort of a change in her demeanor when she says, that's a really sad question. I don't necessarily think that she's feeling any sadness at that moment. I think she's just calling attention to the fact that it's a bold question. It's a really direct question, and it's a really hard question for her to answer because she can't answer it without letting something slip. Right. So she doesn't ever answer that direct question that Keith asks her. What she says is, I was not there.

Meagan Connor [01:20:34] She doesn't say. He asks her, did you watch your children die? She doesn't say, no, that's very telling. She just says, I was not there. And that could mean anything to Lori. It could mean her spirit wasn't there, her mind wasn't there.

Meagan Connor [01:20:51] It could mean that, you know, she participated, but maybe left the room at some point. It could mean anything. And that's. I think what I've learned with Lori is that what. Whatever she tells you has a different definition in her mind than it does to the rest of the world.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:10] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:21:12] Really quickly, because this is such a dark story. I Want to just take a second to share something really positive and something really happy. So basically, some of you may remember that I interviewed Anna Shrier recently on Mormon Stories podcast. She grew up in Utah as a member of the assembly of God Church and, you know, as a Pentecostal. And she did an interview and she talked about how eventually she moved back east and worked for a church that had her gut her house, because they had promised to help her renovate her house. And then when she lost her faith in her church, it left her house gutted with no one to help her renovate it.

A Moment of Community Goodwill

John Dehlin [01:22:02] And I just wanted to share with you all something super happy and inspirational. This photo right now is a photo of Bishop, former Mormon Bishop Nathan Hinckley. He is literally at Anna Schreier's house right now, and they're renovating Anna Schreier's house as just a service project. Y' all will know that Nathan Hinckley runs a new YouTube channel called the Bishop's Interview. It's got over 2,000 subscribers. And Nathan's working really hard to, you know, to build a channel of his own. But I just think it's really, really inspiring in a time that's so dark to just see an example of people out of the goodness of their heart trying to make a positive difference in the world.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] So thank you, Nathan. Love you. And thanks to everyone who's helping Bishop Nathan. And we'll have hopefully y' all again back on Mormon Stories to kind of share that inspiring story. Anyway, I just had to share that. I've also started another poll asking our viewers and listeners if they think Keith did an overall good job with the interview so far, with 250 votes, 82% say they think Keith did a good job with the interview.

Debating Whether Keith Should Have Given Lori a Platform

John Dehlin [01:23:25] 18% say no to that. Let me just ask y'. All, Keith was interviewed by some other journalists just about what the interview was like for him. And what I, what I heard him say was that she had this narrative that she wanted to tell.

John Dehlin [01:23:45] And he spent most of the, I don't know, hour and a half, two hours that he had just trying to corral her and that she wasn't very cooperative in the interview. And, and then there's even the point of the interview where she says, it's going to take me hours and hours and hours to tell you this full story. Maybe we need a lot more, you know, maybe we, we need a lot more time. We, we need a lot more of these episodes. And of course, the prison system isn't going to let her do infinite interviews. But also that almost speaks to this idea that she just wants as much fame and as much attention as she can get out of this.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] What do y' all think about? And Lauren, I'll have you go first because you are amongst us, the actual journalist. What do you guys think about Keith? Was he nervous? Was he aggressive? Was he annoyed? Was he effective?

John Dehlin [01:24:41] And I'll have each of you take a stab at that question while our. We'll ask our viewers and listeners to please vote, please comment, and also please like this episode and subscribe not only this channel, but to Hidden True Crime and third Verse Midlife Revolution as well. Go ahead, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:00] It would be a very difficult interview to do, and it's sort of hard to assess because we actually didn't see that much of the 90 minute interview interview. I think actually. I think actually that might be everyone's biggest disappointment. It was a bit of mine too, that, like, you know, we wanted to see all 90 minutes Understanding why they couldn't. They had a story to tell, you know, so. But they showed us some really important parts and some important sound bites. I. I think that this is probably an interview. This is the type of interview where he probably did need about four hours. There are those interviews where sometimes you can't even get to the meat if someone's really defensive and on their own tangent, you can't really get to the meat of the interview for about an hour and a half because you just have to, like, give them a safe space to talk and let them share what they want before you can kind of really delve in.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:53] I imagine that the time crunch wasn't helpful. I think he probably did the best he could. I appreciated how he was just trying to ask this question about her being there when her kids died and she just wouldn't let him ask it. And you could tell he finally got frustrated. He's like, that's not what I'm asking. Just hear me out.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:14] It would be a very difficult interview to do, and I can't imagine the pressure that he had to do it within 90 minutes into. From what I saw he did. He did a great job.

John Dehlin [01:26:26] I want to ask all of you this. Lauren, is there a question, like one question you would want to make sure you didn't leave there without asking her that he didn't ask. And if. If you needed time to think about that, I want to give Gerardo and Meagan a chance to answer as well.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:41] Yeah, I think I. I definitely want to think about that.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] Okay. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:46] That's. That's a good question. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:48] We'll come back. Gerardo and Meagan, who do y'. All. Do y' all think he did a good job? No. Do you have. Do you wish he could have done something better? Is there a question you would want him to ask? Go ahead.

Meagan Connor [01:26:58] I think Keith did an excellent job, and you have to consider what. What he has to work with over here. If you haven't listened to the phone call between Colby and Lori, it's basically the same set of circumstances where Colby was trying to ask her some very specific questions and she would not answer them. She was, you know, taking this roundabout route where he asks her a question, and then 20 minutes later, she still has not answered it because she is jumping around. She's telling different narratives. She's trying to over explain. In some places, she's trying to avoid answering the actual question that's being asked and manipulate.

Meagan Connor [01:27:38] So Keith even said in the couple of interviews that he did with other people that it was really frustrating. She was very combative. It was really difficult for him to get her to answer anything that he was asking because she had this. This alternate, you know, agenda that she was trying to get done. So I think he did a really excellent job. And for people, anybody who's saying that. That Lori manipulated him, I don't think that's true. Keith is incredibly smart. He's dealt with people like this before. I think he knew what he was doing. He was well prepared for the interview, and he's just dealing with somebody who's got a bag of cats in their head.

Meagan Connor [01:28:17] So, of course it's going to, you know, come across as difficult. And I think the reason we didn't see more footage of Lori talking is because it was like this meandering, nonsensical narrative that would have been too crazy for people to understand. And that's why I said, if you've listened to the phone call between Colby and Lori, it's the same type of thing. It's really hard to decipher. I do an episode on my channel where I break down every little manipulation and every lie that she does during that interview. So I understand Keith, you know, handling things the way that he did, and I thought that he handled it really well.

Meagan Connor [01:28:55] And then there's one other thing that. That people keep saying, you know, about, you know, Keith giving her a platform and everything. Well, actually, I think they did a good job of only giving the. The few little snippets of information that were even useful for us to hear and not allowing Lori to take the narrative away, instead telling that part of the story through Colby's eyes. And I really appreciated that they did that.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:22] Can I. Can I say a couple other things?

John Dehlin [01:29:23] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:23] Please learn, Meagan. Yeah, that was. I agree with Meagan. I didn't know that people thought that. They thought maybe Keith was manipulated. Absolutely not. Yeah. Keith is a smart man. And I also agree with Meagan where she says that they ended up not giving her platform. And I actually said that, too. You know, did I want, for, like, selfish reasons to see 90 minutes of Lori Valo talking to Keith Morrison? Yeah. But in the end, yeah, I'm sure that Lori is very upset that she didn't get those 90 minutes in.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:58] There was one thing that I didn't like that Keith did. There was a moment where Lori said, I thought we were friends, Keith. I thought we were friends. Like, she's clearly pushing him and putting the questions back on him. Right. Like, he's asking him questions, and she's sort of twisting and asking the questions back. And then he goes, yeah, we're friends. Or I can't remember what he says, but he kind of implies her friends. That disappointed me. Like, I don't. I think he should have put the question back on her. Like, well, do you think we're friends? I mean, I don't know. He doesn't have to necessarily say, we're not friends.

Lauren Matthias [01:30:32] Back off. You know, But I don't think he should have said, like, yeah, we're friends, because that's. That's not true. And I think he could have gotten more control of the interview if he just put that question back on her. Well, do you think we're friends? You know, what are we thinking? I think that would have been a good moment. I didn't appreciate that he kind of claimed that he was friends with her.

John Dehlin [01:30:55] Got it.

Meagan Connor [01:30:56] I agree with that somewhat. Although I do think what's interesting is that narcissistic people are actually really easy to manipulate. If you give them what they want, then they're going to continue, you know, exposing themselves and exposing their manipulation. So maybe Keith was doing that just in an effort to say, sure, Lori, we're friends. You can tell me anything, you know? But I do agree. I think it would have been interesting to have him put that back on her and say, well, what do you think? Do you think we're friends? I think that would have been a little sneakier. But also, I want to address people saying that they're disappointed in Keith for saying that they.

Meagan Connor [01:31:32] That he actually liked Lori at the end of this interview. I want to say that I think what Keith was trying to express there. And again, now I'm putting words in someone else's mouth or interpretating, you know, interpreting what they're saying. But I think he had a respect for her, like a boxer has a respect for a sparring partner. I think he appreciated that she does have an intellect. People like to say that Lori's dumb. She's not dumb. She's not book smart. Right. She's not super educated, but she certainly is not dumb. She has the intelligence of knowing how to manipulate people. It's a certain type of intelligence.

Meagan Connor [01:32:10] She knows how to read people. She knows how to say what people want to hear in a certain way. She knows how to turn the conversation in a certain way. She knows how to, you know, answer a question without actually answering it. That's a certain type of intelligence. So I think that's all Keith was saying, was that, you know, after meeting her and talking with her, that he had a certain level of, you know, not. Not like as in, I enjoy spending time with her, but I liked that she had some intelligence, she had some intellect, and there's something. There was something there for him to work with. Not necessarily that like he. He likes or enjoys or thinks she's a good person.

Lauren Matthias [01:32:50] I. I agree with understanding how you like someone. I think that's actually a really important thing to point out, because I've actually said myself, I was like, you know, Flora was in my ward. I probably would have been friends with her. Probably friends with her and her sister Summer and really like them. Chad Daybell. Never. Never.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:08] Absolutely not. There would have been no redeeming quality about Chad Daybell that attracted to me to want to be his friend whatsoever. Lori. Yeah, I think we probably would have done lunch, you know, maybe, you know, gone on a girls trip one week, and I've been like, okay, like, I. I can see. Right. People liking her. So I think you're right with that. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to point out again, I don't think that Keith should have said that they weren't friends. I understand the narcissistic ego. I just think it would have gotten a more interesting response out of saying, well, do you think we're friends? Maybe. Maybe that's. I just want to know, like, how she saw it, you know, so, Berardo,

John Dehlin [01:33:43] let's get you in here. Anything you would have asked. Do you think you did a good job overall?

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:47] Yeah, I think. I mean, how. Again, how I started this episode was agreeing with everyone that I think he's super talented. Keith did a generally really good job. I think. I feel kind of strongly that the thing that was missing there is a deep understanding of. Of Mormonism in a deep. Of understanding of how to talk to people who have deeply rooted, you know, religious beliefs, especially those kinds of beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] What would you have asked her? I could think of some things I would have asked her. But what would you have asked her in terms of her Mormonism, her beliefs, doctrine, theology, history, that sort of thing?

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:32] I think more than. More than what I would have asked versus what he didn't ask. I think I would have. You know, my opinion is that I probably would have framed the interview differently. So, for example, instead of coming here to try to corner her, I would come to her and say, look, we're trying to. We want to tell your story, but the people that are watching this know what the media has said so far about the facts. You know, they under.

Meagan Connor [01:35:02] They.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:03] They know what the court already determined. They know what the jury said. They've seen the evidence. So I want you to give your version of the facts based on that evidence, instead of Keith coming here saying, you know, but the facts are that. Those are not the facts, you know, kind of saying, these are the facts that people know or, you know, the. The evidence that people know about. Let's talk. And I want to ask you about how you would. You would explain it so people can understand your point of view. Yeah, that could have opened a little bit more of.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:40] Not so much of a barrier like, I'm here to, you know, tell you my version of things. It could have maybe avoided her ranting about a lot of things and not really answering the questions if it would have been approached as like, look, this is a moment, a time for you to redeem yourself, to tell your version of the story and to explain your religious beliefs to people. So I see. I'm gonna bring up some of the facts not because I wanna corner you, but because I wanna. I. I want the viewers, you know, and.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] And hear your beliefs.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:17] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:36:18] Got it. All right, let me ask you all some. Let me share with y' all some of the parts that were either concerning or curious or troubling to me. So one was this vision that they painted of Alex, Lori's brother taking JJ Outside the night he was murdered and then bringing him back, quote, asleep. Do we know anything about that? Do we have theories about whether he would have harmed JJ While he took him out and brought him back after he had already passed away, or whether whatever violence may have happened presumably by Alex would have happened after he brought him back asleep. But just that whole idea of Alex being with him, taking him in and out as if he's asleep, was really chilling to me. What do we know about that? Or do we know anything?

Meagan Connor [01:37:16] Yeah. No.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:16] I think there was a time when many speculated whether or not JJ was already past at this moment. Was he really asleep or was he dead? I think that the. Early on in the case that was, people wondered because we. We knew that story from David Warwick, that that was the last time he and Melanie Gibbs saw jj. But as evidence has sort of come out since then in trial, in testimony, including David Warwick and Melanie Gibb being up in the middle of night at 2, how JJ was found, that he struggled. Clearly, it seems as if JJ died, most likely in the middle of the night, and that he really was carried up asleep at that moment, and then something horrendous happened hours later.

John Dehlin [01:38:03] Okay, got it.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:05] And. And I'll point out, too, that this is also why people wonder, perhaps, if Lori was around when JJ died, because the last known place people saw him was being laid asleep in Lori's bedroom. So I think that's where people really wonder if she was there.

Chad Daybell, Tammy's Death, and Unanswered Questions

John Dehlin [01:38:28] Got it. And y' all jump in. If I don't have to ask you each to comment on everything. Please just jump in if you've got anything else you want to add. I was disturbed when Lori was talking about her daughter's death. Like, life is like college. You know, you go to college and then you come home from college, and life's that way, too. Tylee came down on this earth, but then she went back to heaven, and that's kind of what life's all about. You come and you go. It felt a little bit flippant to me. Did. Did any of y'.

Meagan Connor [01:38:58] All.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:59] That was really triggering to me just because I've always had a problem with the way a lot of members of the church or. Or the church, the Mormon church, encourages people to see death. Or, for example, funerals, you know, like. And all the. Or most of the Mormon funerals I've gone, they're mostly about, you know, talking about how it doesn't really matter because we're going to see this person again. We know that we're sealed to them. So, like, there's not a lot of grieving. There's not a lot of actually thoughtfulness about what. What has happened. And a lot of that sadness seems to be, you know, if. If people sometimes show sadness and they're Mormon, they can feel Guilt for, you know, maybe they don't really believe they're gonna see this person again. And. And that Lori talking about life and death in that way kind of reminded me of that.

John Dehlin [01:40:00] Especially when it's her own child.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] Like, I. I think all of us have experienced death of a loved one in. In some way or another. Even my parents, who are 90, who are believing Mormons, when I asked them about their own death, they're like, I don't want to die. So, like, who talks about some of their closest loved ones as if, like, oh, yeah, they come to go. That's just kind of what happens in life. It's. It was very dark and chilling to me. So. Any other. Any other comments there? Should I go on?

Meagan Connor [01:40:35] Yeah, I just. I agree. I mean, I think Gerardo's, you know, spot on as, you know, being being raised Mormon and believing so heavily in an afterlife that is supposed to be so exponentially better than this life. It's something that we look forward to as sort of our reward for enduring the trials of this life. And I think that's where it is a little bit. It's easier to be dismissive of the death experience and to, you know, sort of not see it as something tragic, but to see it as victorious. That being said, to have Laurie talk about the death of her daughter, which she caused, which we can say because she's been convicted of it now, is incredibly disrespectful. It's horrible. It's horrific. I don't have enough words to say how evil and. And disgusting that is.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] Yeah. Amen. Okay, the next part that. That was kind of disturbing to me was, was Tammy. And I've already kind of mentioned this, but Tammy saying, sorry, Lori saying, Tammy loves me and I love her, and we're going to be together for eternities. Like, I was trying to put myself in the shoes of Tammy's children, of Tammy's loved ones. And just how chilling and dark it would be for them to hear the woman who likely contributed to the murder of their sister, daughter, mom, etc. Say, we're besties, and she visits me all the time, and we're. We're besties for the eternities. Super dark to me again. Jump in. Or I can just keep reading. Reading these off.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:27] You know, I was gonna say, unfortunately, I don't know if it's Tammy's children that will be most upset by that, because I think they want to believe that their mother did die from natural causes. I don't. I can't speak for all of them, but I. I can speak that. I know that some still believe that. And so to think that.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:47] I mean, I'm not saying it doesn't upset them, but sometimes I'm upset that, you know, these. I think that it might not upset all of them, but who it does upset is Tammy. The Douglas family, the extended family of Tammy, you know, her.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:02] Cami's mother, who passed away between Lori's trial and Chad's trial. And that family cannot imagine her. Her aunt Vicki Hoban, who I am close to Tam, is so angry that she would ever, ever utter such things about her niece. Yeah, I can't imagine that. Right. It's just. Again, it's just twisting the knife. It's just like, why? So it is very upsetting. It's as upsetting as you. You think that it is. And then I want to point out, as far as what I think she is actually saying, I think she is implying my personal belief that there's some polygamy involved. I do believe that Lori might think they're going to be sister wives.

John Dehlin [01:43:51] Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God.

Meagan Connor [01:43:54] Yeah, I agree with that, Lauren. And I also think that Lori talking about Tammy being a friend, you know, of course it's disgusting and horrible. I think it's another way for Laurie to deflect attention away from herself. You know, if people believe that Tammy and Laurie are friends, then Lori couldn't possibly have anything to do with Tammy's death. I think that's just part of that as well.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:16] I also want to point this out because we forget sometimes about Julie Rowe and how big of a piece she played in this before, but how close she was to Chad Daybell and to Tammy. But she, too, said the same thing, and it's despicable. After the investigation had started to the death of Tammy Daybell and the missing children, Julie Rowe got on her live and said, I know that the kids are okay because I've seen them, and I know that Tammy is just fine and having a great reunion because she visits me. She's an angel. Tammy Daybell just adores me. She comes and visits me.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:51] She told me she's okay. She's totally chill. And, you know, now here in the celestial kingdom, and she's. She's so okay. I mean, this. This idea is just gross. I just want to point out that, like, what happened to people speaking for dead people, especially when there's an investigation going on, they might have been murdered and she was murdered. Like, I just. I don't know. It's like when a dead person can't speak for themselves and we're speaking for them, it's just. It's just wild. But a lot of people try to speak for Tammy Daybell, who weren't her family after she died, to claim that she wasn't murdered and she was okay. And that's just this whole other aspect of this story that's just sort of like,

John Dehlin [01:45:31] yeah, there's a. There's a mutual friend. We have Lauren, whose son died a few years back. And I was at the wake or the Shiva or the, you know, funeral, and I would watch people come up and say, your son visited me, and he wanted, you know, me to let you know that he's okay and you don't need to worry and grieve about him. And I'm just thinking, on the one hand, I guess that's sweet and nice. On the other hand, if a son can visit anyone after he's died, shouldn't he visit the parents and not have random people from the funeral come up and say, your son is sending you love?

Lauren Matthias [01:46:13] Exactly. And also, don't tell me about my dead relative. Actually, I would like to know that my. My dead relative is maybe sad and they're missing me, and maybe they're not. Okay. I just. Yeah, just don't even go there. Don't. Don't even tell me what my deceased loved one is saying.

John Dehlin [01:46:30] Yeah.

Meagan Connor [01:46:32] Yeah. And then Julie Rowe had to go back and recant supposedly what she saw, because she said that she saw the kids safe. She described, you know, a beautiful room with palm trees. And I think she was trying to imply that she saw them in Hawaii. And then, of course, she had to later come back and say, well, you know, I wasn't exactly sure of exactly where they were, but that's what I saw. And it could have been this other thing, too. So, you know, let's not put any stock by what Julie Rowe predicted.

John Dehlin [01:47:03] Yeah. So the next. The next part that was kind of just mind blowing to me was when Keith calls her out for purchasing the wedding bands before Tammy's death. And her reaction was, get your facts straight, Keith. You know, the rings were originally bought, you know, for Alex and Zulema, and then we used them later. But you don't know what you're talking about, Keith. I don't. I don't mean to be repetitive there, but that was. It's just if there. If there. There were so many moments where they were just absolutely busted, and that's. That's one of them. But it. It does just speak to that just willingness to just say anything. And it does call into question her sincerity about claiming to be visited by angels, because there's just no way those rings were intended for Alex and Zulema. She's making that up. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:02] The ring size for. I doubt is any similar to, like, Alex ring size.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] That's a good point. Just.

Meagan Connor [01:48:12] Yeah. Chad has very, very dainty hands, as we saw in his trial, and Alex's hands were not dainty for sure. And. And that. That was a moment, I think, where we saw Lori's mask slip a little bit, because she does get angry and combative and defensive when she's called out on this. This lie. You know, that he's got the facts. He's. Yes, we have the Amazon history, we have the dates. We know that you received the rings. There's nothing that manipulative people hate more than being confronted with an absolute truth.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:45] Yes.

Meagan Connor [01:48:45] And so, of course, you know, I think she had this story ready made probably, although I wouldn't put it past her to be able to kind of like, make this up on the fly. But I do think. Think this probably was already in her mind, this. This dumb story about, oh, that was for Alex and Zulema. Never mind the fact that they didn't even tell Alex and Zulema to marry each other until much, much later on. So, you know, obviously it's not a real thing. She totally made it up. But, you know, this is. This is what liars and manipulators do.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:17] Yeah, yeah, she has. She had a similar reaction on one of her calls with Melanie Gibb when Melanie kind of catches her on a lie or says. Confronts her about lying and she kind of storms and. And. And basically hangs up. I don't remember exactly the context, but I do remember the reaction. Do you want to talk about it?

Meagan Connor [01:49:45] Yeah. So, you know, Melanie calls Chad and Lori and. And confronts them and says, you know, why did you tell the police that, J.J. you know, that was. That was really. It makes me look really weird. It makes me look, you know, like I did something wrong. And, you know, then Melanie goes on to basically call Lori a Cora whore. And then Lori says, are you trying to rest the scriptures? Are you trying to tell me, you know, what. What to do or tell me that I'm the one who's manipulating or lying or whatever, really calls her out. And, yeah, they end up up angry with each other.

Meagan Connor [01:50:21] But what is so interesting to me about that phone call is that the entire time you can tell Lori's getting upset and angry. But the whole time both of them are saying, love you so much. I love you so much. Yeah, I love you. And I just. I love you, and I just want you to be right. And I just want things to be good between us, you know, I don't want you to be mad at me. I'm not mad at you. I love you. And it's. It's super triggering because this is what happens in my family all the time. It's like I'm gonna call you out for doing something wrong.

Meagan Connor [01:50:53] And, you know, I'm not trying to offend you or upset you because I love you so much. But I just want you to know that I think this thing about you, it's just. This is. It's just one of those tactics of like, we. We don't know how to handle conflict. We don't know how to.

Meagan Connor [01:51:10] To talk to each other in a way that hold someone accountable for their behavior. And that's why Lori and Alex got away with what they got away with for their entire lives, because nobody ever had a conversation with them where they held them accountable for their actions, for their words, for their lies, for their manipulation, for anything that they did. Our family doesn't know how to have those conversations in a real and respectful way. They don't know how to communicate about conflict. And so you're going to see this sort of covering up of, like, I'm going to tell you this thing, but I'm going to say that I love you so that you won't be offended and upset because there is nothing scarier than abandonment, than having somebody not like you or not think well of you or not see you in a good light.

Meagan Connor [01:52:03] And so that's the most threatening thing. And that's, that's. That's the thing that we're going to try to cover up and, and try to make sure doesn't ever happen, is that there's no rupture of our relationship. And you still think I'm a good person at the end of every conversation.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:19] Yeah. Can we go? Here, Here? Meagan. Meagan, I. I agree with you. I want to just quickly go back to the. The ring thing. The rings are important, too, because I wish the Dateline. Yeah, the rings that they purchased on Amazon. Because I wish Dayliner brought this up, too, that Lori and Chad didn't just. Lori didn't just buy the ring. She kept returning them for different sizes, too. We learned that, like, they were returned and resized. Like, you know, she. She didn't, you know, keep trying these on Alex's finger and Dilemma's fingers. So they were resizing when I think in particular, actually it was Chad's ring. It had to keep getting smaller. So once again, he can't roll a tire. And his. His ring finger just kept getting smaller and smaller. And you know what they say. So it was clearly Chad's ring, as I just want to point out.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] We just keep wanting to hate on Chad.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:18] So likable.

Meagan Connor [01:53:19] Yeah, you know, I. I think it's okay to hate on convicted killers.

John Dehlin [01:53:23] No, for sure.

Meagan Connor [01:53:23] I'm just gonna put that out there.

John Dehlin [01:53:24] For sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. I put a new poll up. First of all, we've got 4400 people on this live stream, which is great. Great. We're really grateful for this audience. You know, Please, I'm just going to keep asking. Please subscribe to the channel Mormon Stories along with Hidden True Crime and second sec, Third Verse or Midlife Revolution. Please like this episode and please comment on it because that's really going to help us get these stories out and grow. Grow our respective channels. I put a new poll up, and I don't know if y' all have seen this yet, but the poll basically is asking if.

The Role of Mormonism in These Crimes

John Dehlin [01:54:11] If Chad and Lori had been Catholic or Presbyterian or Lutheran, you know, do you think this murders. These murders would have happened? In other words, you know, did these murders happen? Is the Mormonism aspect crucial to the story overall and. And to the. To the murders? So I'm. I'm not going to have us answer that, because I'm going to come to that in just a second, but I definitely want to hear the audience's feedback. As of now, 400, about 500 people have voted. 73% are saying no, the murders would not have happened basically if Laurie and Chad had been like a. Basically Protestant Christians. In other words, it's the Mormon doctrine and theology and culture that were important tipping points to these people that clearly had issues actually becoming murders.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] So I'm going to let the audience opine in the chats and with the poll before we as a panel discuss that. But I just wanted to put that out there as a teaser. Let me go to a couple more things that were disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [01:55:24] It was clearly disturbing when the investigator shows up and sees Alex and Chad unloading a pickup truck. And, you know, he notices that Alex was nervous and he asks Chad for Lori's number. And Chad says he doesn't know Lori's number because. Because the investigator's looking for Lori's children. That was deeply troubling, and it makes Me feel like they certainly got the verdict right with convicting Chad of murder. There was also the, the evidence that when, when once Lori and Chad know that, that investigators are looking for the children, that Chad calls Melanie and tells her not to pick up, and that Lori calls Melanie and says that she told the investigators that JJ was with her and that Melanie felt betrayed.

John Dehlin [01:56:20] But I, I was curious if y' all had reactions to those pieces of evidence. I know y' all know the story way better than me, but that stuff was just like, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. Anything y' all want to add to that? If not, I can just jump on, move to the next point. Anything.

Meagan Connor [01:56:40] Well, I just think that was, I think that was a telling moment. You know, the, the detectives relating that they, they already knew that Lori and Chad were married. They already knew that Lori and Alex were super, super close as brother and sister. And yet when they asked ask Alex for the phone number, he says he doesn't have it. And Chad says, I don't know Lori very well.

Meagan Connor [01:57:04] You know, if that was me as an investigator, I would have been like, you know, that's, that's a super big red flag right there, you know, that, that might have been a moment where, where I would have said, okay, everybody's lying to me at this point. You know, so I think that was, that was obviously super telling. And then, yeah, to have. I hated seeing Melanie Gibb, by the way.

Meagan Connor [01:57:26] I, I, it's very difficult for me to listen to her talk because I think she knows way, way more than she is ever going to be willing to say publicly. I think that she has a lot more information that could help, it could help us understand better what happened to the children and exactly when and those kinds of things. So I, I, it's hard for me to listen to her talk about the things that she will talk about because I have other things that I would, I would love for her to say everything that she knows. However, I will just say I'm grateful for what she has told us.

Meagan Connor [01:58:03] I'm grateful that she did finally come forward and tell the police, hey, I lied to you. I didn't really have jj, but, yeah, that was definitely another very telling time of, you know, of them finding out that, that Chad called and said, hey, don't. Don't tell people. Don't tell the police. JJ's with you. Don't tell him that we lied to you or whatever, whatever it was that they exactly said.

Melanie Gibb's Knowledge and Moral Responsibility

John Dehlin [01:58:29] Anyway, let me, let me, let's follow up on that, because a lot of comments are Coming in. One comment in particular, and I'm going to put this up as a poll, Valerie says I will always feel Melanie Gibb may have saved the kids had she spoken up sooner. She knew being declared dark was a death sentence. A lot of other people are saying Melanie was complicit. You know, is that, what do y' all think? Is Melanie potentially to blame? Culpable Nell? Nell Nelp says Melanie is culpable.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:08] I mean isn't there more people than Melanie like that were around the circle like Salema or what's, what's the niece, Lori's niece Lauren? You're muted.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:21] Yeah, but there were only two people inside Lori's town home when JJ was murdered. Two people who were texting Lori and Chad in the middle of the night at 2am and then claiming later that they just had a bad nightmare.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:36] Two people who knew JJ had been declared a zombie that night, knew something horrendous was happening. Even tried to open Lori's door at 2am but found it locked. I will not be able to get over that. And I will never believe their story of just being asleep and waking up. Because David Warwick, you know, this middle aged man had a nightmare and needed a blessing from Chad and it was so intense, their need was so intense that they were, you know, wiggling Lori's door at 2am and texting them both. They knew exactly what was happening and they have, you know, they've been protected to tell their story.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:14] And I, I will never ever be okay with the many people. And I'm sorry to Gerardo, I'm sorry to like cut you off this stuff. Like clearly that was like all emotion on my part to cut you off. Gerardo, I'm sorry because like I get so angry. But, but going back to what you were saying before I cut you off Gerardo, and you can start again is yes, there were many people dilemma, many, many people involved that did nothing. But Melanie Gibb even had Charles coming to her crying. She shared this on a recorded phone call with Sherry Doddle and she said yeah, Charles came to me crying, you know, not knowing what to do.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:51] And I said, oh, I didn't know what to tell him. You know, he said help me, help me, but I didn't know. And then Sherry Dottle says, well, did Lori kill Charles Vallow? And she said well yeah, but you know, for self defense reasons. But, but yeah. And then Zulema going back to Gerardo, what you're saying, Dulema saying that it was a Nephi and Laban ending To Charles's death.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:12] So many. So many people knew that carried this belief system and did nothing. And I'll let you finish now, Gerardo. Sorry. That was like pure. Like rage.

John Dehlin [02:01:24] Are we saying Melanie probably knew the kids were gonna die and did nothing?

Lauren Matthias [02:01:28] Oh, that's what I'm saying.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:30] Go ahead, Lauren. What?

Lauren Matthias [02:01:31] No, that. That's what I just said. And I. I will boldly state that,

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:34] because then we say, these are our opinions. These are our opinions.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:38] These are our opinions. This is my opinion. This is my opinion and my speculation. Looking at all of the evidence sitting in both trials, watching all of Melanie Gibbs full police interviews that she gave that are on YouTube, watching her testimony, knowing her alibi, seeing the inside of this town home on video, knowing that it wasn't big, knowing that they were there, listening to the podcast they gave that night. It is absolute speculation. I wasn't there, but it is speculation. With a lot of evidence that I have heard over the years. I do believe she knew the children were in danger.

John Dehlin [02:02:20] That's so dark.

Meagan Connor [02:02:22] I agree. I. I totally agree. I. I think. I think all of the. The people who called themselves the Seven Gatherers or whatever, you know, all of the people who were in that inner circle who were doing castings on Charles, that's the part of this. Part of Lori's trial, of this trial that I want to. I want to know all the information about how much they knew, when they knew it, just prior to Charles's death and then after Charles's death as well, their behavior, the way that they acted and interacted with each other, what communication went back and forth. Because I absolutely believe that they knew that when Chad said someone was dark, it.

Meagan Connor [02:03:06] It meant death, especially. Especially after Charles. And so anybody who was doing a casting for the kids or who heard Lori or Chad refer to either one of the children as dark, I think they absolutely knew what was going to happen, and they did nothing and they said nothing. And I wish that they would all be held accountable, but as I always have to point out on my channel is that law enforcement, prosecutors, they're always going to look at likelihood of conviction, and they've already got convictions in these three murders, you know, and so they're probably not going to take a look at Zulema and both of the Melanies for prosecution for those reasons, which is infuriating.

Meagan Connor [02:03:52] But it. You know, it is my opinion as well, that they absolutely knew. They absolutely could have done something. They could have said something. They could have spoken up, and they chose not to. And I think the Reason they chose not to is because that would have meant losing their status in this little cult and losing face and possibly confronting the fact that they're believing in stuff that's not real. And they have to deal with the fact that they've been duped and they've been manipulated and they've been lied to. And while that is a difficult thing to admit, what's the alternative? The alternative is that people die.

John Dehlin [02:04:30] Yeah.

Meagan Connor [02:04:31] Period.

John Dehlin [02:04:32] Absolutely. Well, that's. That's just dark. And it's kind of unthinkable that people can get in this kind of fantasy mindset where they're doing the Lord's work and they're aware that children are going to die and they just choose not to do anything. I just can't even imagine it. I put out the poll. We're doing a lot of polls today. I put out the poll, did Melanie Gibb know the children would be murdered and opted to do Nothing? So far, 300 people have voted, and 86% say yes. They believe that Melanie Gibb knew the children would be murdered and opted to do nothing. Which is. It's kind of sickening and mind blowing.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:09] Do we know you received any kind of immunity to testify, or. No, we don't know or.

Meagan Connor [02:05:17] I don't know. I don't think we know for sure. I think there's been speculation that both Dilemma and Melanie were offered some kind of immunity, but I don't know. Lauren, do you. Do you know anything?

Lauren Matthias [02:05:28] I think it came out in trial that, yeah, she was offered.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:30] Oh, wow.

Meagan Connor [02:05:31] That Zulema was. Or Melanie. Or both. Both.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:35] Melanie, possibly. Zulema, too.

Meagan Connor [02:05:37] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:39] Actually, let me take that back on Zulema. I. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, my. My memory is not good enough to say if anybody knows in comments. I probably knew one time, and I'm drawing a blank.

John Dehlin [02:05:52] So. So the next part. And. And I think no one's ever going to be able to dissuade me of my opinion here. I'm waiting for the part. And again, I. The. The facts of this case come and go for me because I just haven't been able to internalize them, fortunately, unfortunately, as much as y' all have. But I was waiting for the point where Alex dies and somebody is blamed and even arrested for Alex's murder.

Alex Cox's Death and Whether It Was Natural

John Dehlin [02:06:22] And instead, what the narrative said in this. In this show was that Alex just randomly. Laurie's brother, I should say, who is likely the murderer of several people. Alex collapses and dies. And I'm thinking, surely Zulema was going to be convicted for Alex's death, and instead they just say Alex died of natural causes, likely blood clots. And I'm just going to say, in my mind, there is a zero percent chance that Alex dies of natural causes. It's. It has to be that he was poisoned under Laurie and. Or Chad's direction to get the witness, you know, murder witness out of the way. And yet the show just wanted me to believe that he just randomly magically died of blood clots.

John Dehlin [02:07:15] Do y' all have opinions about this? Am I crazy? Or are there legitimate suspicions that he was murdered and they just didn't want to say it or what? Help me out here, y'. All.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:25] Legitimate suspicions, even as much as the prosecution bringing it up in trial. We heard a really fascinating piece of evidence at Chad Dabel's trial this last year where we can call him the Ian. Ian Palowski tapes. And Ian, who married Melanie, the. The niece of Lori Valow.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:56] So Melanie isn't somebody else that I think has, you know, been speculated that she should have also been charged or arrested. That's also been speculated. So she. She was. She was the ex wife of Brandon Boudoir. So Ian Pawlowski marries Melanie, and then Ian Pawlowski is like, wait a minute. What did I just marry into?

Lauren Matthias [02:08:20] Freaks out after Brandon. After the attempted murder of Brandon, goes to police, suggests that he is afraid children are in danger. Melanie Gibb then goes to police. They all start talking at the same time. I wonder why, because they all know. So within one day, Melanie Palowski, Ian Plowski and Melanie Gibb are all talking to police. Like, once one person snitches, they all snitch. So they all start going to police in Ian Palowski, like, allegedly terrified about what he's just gotten himself into, says FBI. You know what? I will start secretly recording my new wife and all of her friends and Chad, and he does that.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:58] And we heard some of those recordings at the trial, and one of them is the day after Alex Cox Diesel. And there, to me, it sounds like an absolute cover up. Chad is on the phone and everybody's talking and everybody's saying, like, you know, just get. Did. Do you have his belongings? Did you get this or you got this? Like, I. And then Melanie Pawlowski says something like, well, I don't want Brandon to know that Alex just died because it's going to give him some ammo and let's just keep this on the DL.

Lauren Matthias [02:09:31] I mean, that was the one where I thought if there was any doubt in my Mind which there was some doubt, weird coincidences happened. Hearing that recording at trial erased all that doubt.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:43] Yeah, I just asked Chad GPT, which, you know, take it for wherever it's worth is chat GPT. If a pulmonary embolism can be made to look natural. And the answer according to this is yes. And it could be nearly undetectable in an autopsy. There are several ways a person could be convertly induced into developing a pulmonary embolism, which was what was determined to be the cause of Alex Cox's death.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:14] And he says possible external inductions like administering a pro coagulant drug or substance and certain drugs or toxin can increase blood clot, clot, clotting and basically, you know, it gives several options, but it basically says that all of these would be.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:36] Would be nearly undetectable in an autopsy. So. And we know that there was some talk about, you know, Chad saying before Alex died, yet kind of getting, getting him prepared or trying to convince him that he was. That his time on this earth had had or where it was coming to an end.

John Dehlin [02:10:59] Was there some type of patriarchal blessing, blessing kind of thing?

Meagan Connor [02:11:03] Yeah, yeah, you will, you will never ever be able to convince me that Alex's death was natural. Not. Not ever. You know, one day after Tammy's body was exhumed, immediately after this patriarchal blessing that Chad gave him that basically told him that he'd done his work well and that it was okay for him to move next life or to the next mission, was the implication it was a bilateral pulmonary embolism, meaning in both lungs. And okay, I will say yes. You know, in the family there is somewhat of a history of blood clots.

Meagan Connor [02:11:42] Lori and Alex's. You know, my grandmother Novelle died of a brain aneurysm. So there was some speculation in the family about that. However, again, Gerardo is correct. There are lots and lots of ways that a pulmonary embolism could be caused that would be undetectable. And just to. Just to silence everybody who's speculating in the chat, yes, Alex had an autopsy. Yes, it was ruled natural causes due to bilateral pulmonary embolism. Yes, his body was cremated. But they did reserve blood and tissue samples in case they needed to test something in the future. But you can't just do. And yes, a tox panel was done, but you can't just do a tox screening for everything.

Meagan Connor [02:12:31] You know, like there's a general panel that they do that's standard for autopsies. But if you want to look for a specific toxin or a specific drug or A specific poison. You have to specify that you want that specific thing to be tested. And they can't just test for everything.

Meagan Connor [02:12:49] So, yes, 100%. There's a possibility that someone could have introduced some kind of toxin into his food or his bloodstream, or he could have done it himself. That would have caused him to have pulmonary embolism, and then it would be undetectable. So the timing of it is way too suspicious, you know, for people saying he was young and healthy. He was 51. He was an over the road trucker. So that's kind of what, you know, some other people have said that, you know, when you're an over the road trucker, you can get dvt, which can cause blood clots and things like that. Okay, fine, fine, fine.

Meagan Connor [02:13:23] But he was a killer who was directly responsible for the deaths of several people directly involved. And then, you know, he was saying to Zulema, I think, think I might be their fall guy. And then a day later, he's dead. So that, to me is just. There's too many things in there that. That it's not a coincidence anymore.

John Dehlin [02:13:53] All right, that's good, because I felt like I was losing touch with reality for a second.

Meagan Connor [02:13:59] We all do whenever we look at the case. You know, it's just like, what kind of a world am I living in where this kind of stuff is possible?

John Dehlin [02:14:08] Yeah. So. And y' all jump in anytime if you got something else you want to say. So when they show, when they got to the point about them sitting by the pool, obviously I was hoping that they were going to mention the Visions of Glory book that was under Lori's knee. There was no mention of the Visions of Glory book. I can totally understand that a secular national news story is going to have to keep the story focused and that maybe that's a detail that they did a rabbit hole they didn't want to go down.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:37] But.

John Dehlin [02:14:37] But Lauren, you're. You're raising your finger. Jump in, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:41] Keith did ask me a lot of questions about Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [02:14:44] Oh, wow.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:45] We did talk and I read from the book and we. He did talk about putting it in. I did hear before they didn't have room, but I do think that they were planning on it originally.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] Okay, well, that's good to know because that's. You know, I don't think we ever want to do an episode without calling out the fact that the one. You know, the. The one through line. Well, there are a couple through lines through the Tim Ballard story, the Ruby, Frankie and Joe, you know, story and the Chad and Laurie Daybell story. I guess one through line is Jody Hildebrandt, but another through line is the Visions of Glory book and Tom Harrison. And until that book gets stamped out and killed and denounced and burned and Tom Harrison is punished. Not that we want anyone to be punished per se, but I think we all will continue agreeing that maybe our band should be called Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] Because until that book goes away, we're going to keep seeing true crime things happening. And a lot of this stuff comes from that book, that awful book that we know Tom Harrison is. Is behind. Any disagreement or comments on that, or should I keep going? Got a couple more things.

Meagan Connor [02:16:05] I think we've done eight hours on the book, but I'm. I'm just always gonna. I'm always gonna call it out because it is harmful. It is tied to all these other people who have done horrible, atrocious things and there are still people out there who think it's a great book. There are a couple of YouTube channels out there right now where they read the book and talk about it. And, you know, I think I've addressed this somewhere, but I don't remember where. So forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but I think one of the reasons why Mormons especially like that book is because it validates some of their beliefs and it makes them feel a little bit better about believing the way that they do about the end times and about, you know, the life after this one.

Meagan Connor [02:16:45] So I think people who like it are biased to like it because it confirms the things that they believe, but there's so much harmful in it. And again, it glorifies justifiable homicide, just like the Book of Mormon does. I just think Visions of Glory needs to go away forever.

John Dehlin [02:17:04] Yeah. For those who don't know, it's sort of this apocalyptic Mormon Christian fan fiction, end of times scenario from a Mormon perspective, or calamity comes to the earth and people who store up food and weapons and ammunition are saved and they all culminated in Salt Lake City and Jesus and Joseph Smith come to the temple that's in rubbles or the visitor center and it's just. It's just a millennial Mormon slash Christian apocalypse porn wrapped into a book that unfortunately just a lot of people believe. So

Lauren Matthias [02:17:48] I'm seeing a comment by Rose here and she says nothing is harmful in the book. What about the part I read to Keith Morrison where it says that in the. In the last days we get to act as God and kill people if we see that they're Dark. Yeah, that's kind of like, you know, not the greatest. And if. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] What a ridiculous position Rose has. I don't. Rose. I like to be respectful to my viewers and listeners. Rose says nothing is harmful in the book.

Meagan Connor [02:18:17] Okay, let me just say the quote then. Okay, let me just say the quote from the end of the book that says as they were going around gathering people, they would come up against these groups that would want to fight them and would want to combat them. And they could tell whether or not those groups of people were righteous. They could tell whether or not those groups of people were going to repent or not. So here you have someone who's not God, who's not Jesus, judging the hearts and the intents of other people. And if that was not bad enough, what they say is that we could tell if they were past feeling if they were not going to repent.

Meagan Connor [02:18:53] And if they were not going to repent, we were free to deliver them from mortality. In other words, we were free to kill them if we believed they were never going to repent and their death would be a blessing to them because then they couldn't rack up any more sin on their divine ledger. If that's not harmful. Explain to me how it makes me angry.

John Dehlin [02:19:17] We just. We just. We lit up Meagan. Meagan's on fire. We got it. We got caffeinated Meagan.

Meagan Connor [02:19:23] Here you have. You have angry Meagan. You have Meagan, who has listened to people try to defend and justify this book that literally says it's okay to kill people. My family members are dead because of that book. Tell me how that's okay. It's not.

Lauren Matthias [02:19:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:44] Thank you, Meagan. Thank you. All right, well, I'll. I'll jump now to. For me, one of the most bothersome parts of the whole interview, I think it was when an investigator was being interviewed towards the end, and he said this crime was about money, sex, and power, and that religion was only tangential.

Specific Mormon Teachings That Enabled the Crimes

John Dehlin [02:20:12] Y' all probably knew that I was gonna not like that. I'm going to just highlight really quickly the Mormon teachings that I think some of the Mormon teachings that I think contributed to these murders. The belief that Mormons are special, that they're special above all other people on the world, and that individuals can be so special that they're favorites of God, chosen to usher in the second Coming, like that is very Mormon. It comes from Isaiah. It comes from the Doctrine and Covenants. The whole one mighty and strong stuff and just the whole Mormon Christian exceptionalism stuff, I think that contributes to Chad and Lori's Delusions.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] I think the belief in Mormonism that your thoughts and feelings are the Holy Ghost, that comes right out of the Book of Mormon when Nephi is told to chop Laban's head off because he gets the thought or the feeling that he should. This idea that the Holy Ghost speaks to you through your thoughts and your feelings is absolutely a recipe for crime and murder because we all have dangerous or disturbing thoughts. As someone who has a PhD in psychology who studied OCD, we have horrendous, all of us have horrendous thoughts that come into our brain or horrendous feelings that come into our mind at one point or another.

John Dehlin [02:21:43] And if at any point we're under the delusion that those might be God or divine angels speaking to us, horrible things can happen just by that alone. The idea that our bodies can be possessed by evil spirits, which then led to the zombie derivation doctrine, was clearly behind this.

John Dehlin [02:22:10] If there wasn't the belief that evil spirits are among us and that they can possess bodies, which is a very Mormon and a very Christian teaching, which is also very much reinforced in the Visions of Glory book, by the way, but Jesus himself teaches it in the New Testament, it's in the Doctrine and Covenants, it's in the Mormon Temple ceremony. Joseph Smith taught it himself. Without the teaching of demonic and spirit possession, these murders very well might not have happened. The idea that death is no big deal, that we should celebrate death because we get to go to a better place in the afterlife, that comes straight from Joseph Smith and it dismisses the value of life if the next life is more precious.

John Dehlin [02:22:55] I was a 15 year old thinking, wait, let's let me get this straight. If we murder babies before they come to this earth, according to Joseph Smith, they all go immediately to the celestial kingdom. But if we let all those babies mature to adulthood and then they sin and then they don't go to the celestial kingdom, the most charitable thing we can do with babies is murder them to guarantee their, you know, and I thought that as a faithful, Orthodox believing Mormon, 14 or 15 year old. So the, the idea that death has no sting is absolutely a Mormon and a Christian doctrine. And I think it leads to these, helps contribute to these types of crimes and murders.

John Dehlin [02:23:39] The idea that we all lived as spirits before we came here and, and that there might be multiple mortal probations, that we could live on the earth multiple times. And the idea that there's polygamy, those are all mortal teachings, sorry, those are all very Mormon teachings. Joseph Smith not only taught polygamy he practiced it. Mormon apostles, prophets and revelators have taught about, you know, probations and about eternal progression. Again, without the teachings of polygamy, without the teachings of spirit, you know, eternal progression, Lori and Chad wouldn't have been able to have these deluded beliefs that maybe they knew each other in former lives and that maybe they were meant to be together with Tammy in some sort of celestial, you know, throuple.

John Dehlin [02:24:38] Those, those teachings wouldn't have been possible without Joseph Smith's teachings of polygamy and eternal progression and spirit persistence in the plan of salvation. The idea that any of us could have spiritual powers to speak with the dead, to know the future, to know God's will. Just that teaching of spiritual power or that we can get visits from God or Jesus gives people too much power to then be able to prey on other vulnerable people, like Chad clearly likely did with Lori and others saying I speak with God, I, I have special powers. I'm the one mighty and strong. I have spiritual gifts. You need to listen to me.

John Dehlin [02:25:23] This very well might not have happened if there weren't. The belief about spiritual gifts and basically religions that denounce evidence, that denounce reality, and that instead prop up supernatural spiritual worldviews, predisposes religious believers to devalue and dismiss evidence and instead to have conspiratorial mindsets that are not rooted in evidence and rooted in reality, but are instead rooted in spiritual psychological fantasy.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] Those are at play here. And then finally, it's very Mormon to believe. Even though the doctrine, even though the articles of faith says we believe in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law. The Mormon Church has a long history of disobeying the law and believing that prophets, seers, revelators in the church are above the law. And whether that's the secret polygamy that was going on the post manifesto polygamy, this idea of bleeding the beast. There's a long history of lying for the Lord. Gerardo, were you going to jump in and say something?

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:42] The SEC violations.

John Dehlin [02:26:44] Yeah, the SEC violations. The ensign peak, hiding our wealth from the members and from the world, masking and deceiving the IRS and the SEC with its finances. The Mormon Church has a long history of deceiving and lying and breaking the law, thinking that God's ways and the prophets ways are higher and the Lord's ways are higher than man's ways. And if that's all true, then why wouldn't members believe that they can also violate, deceive, break the law and lie for the Lord when they get these thoughts and these impressions that come into their brain.

John Dehlin [02:27:32] So in all of these ways and in many, many more, I do not think these murders happen with schlubby Chad Dabel. And you know, we want to say vixen Lori Valo. Like, otherwise they're just pedestrian kind of loser people that are broken and fraudulent and marginalized and discredited.

John Dehlin [02:27:58] It's the secret ingredient of super dangerous. And I would add deadly theological, spiritual and religious beliefs that turn this series of events from just Silly Prepper Apocalyptic LARPing to the death of at least 4, if not more 4, 5, 6 people.

John Dehlin [02:28:25] That's my view. It seems like over 70% of you voted that these murders would not have happened without the Mormon component. That's my rant. Sorry I went on that rant. Who wants to jump in and, and disagree with me or agree with me or share your own perspectives? I get one rant. Can I have one rant per episode?

Meagan Connor [02:28:54] I love your rants, John. I, I will just say that, that lots of people have asked me, you know, does Lori get here without Chad? Does Chad get here without Lori? And I, I think the answer to that is I, I, it's hard to say, of course. Right. You know, I think Lori had always talked about the next life being better. She, you know, Colby detailed the story where, where she talked about driving all three of them off a cliff and Tylee saying, yeah, go ahead and do it, mom. Because she was young enough where she didn't really understand the, the implications of that. So does Lori get here without Chad? I think it's really possible, yes. I can't answer whether Chad gets there without Lori, but I don't think either one of them gets there without the beliefs that you just described, John. So I'm just going to agree with you in that way.

John Dehlin [02:29:50] Lauren and Gerardo, anything you want to add?

Lauren Matthias [02:29:55] Yeah, I'll go ahead. Unless you want to go first. Gerardo. I, I hear you, John. I think it was so funny because I was actually making a list of very specific LDS beliefs, but you did a much more thorough list than I did, so, so I concur with what you state are the concerning beliefs.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:22] I also want to take it further though, and this is an interesting part for me because I'm going to get those that are ex LDS thinking I'm an apologist and those that are of any other Christian denomination, they're going to be offended by this. But I want to broaden this. I am actually not going to be an apologist for the LDS Church. Because I don't think anyone should ever be an apologist when children are being murdered. And I actually concur with what you said, John, but here's my but I love it. I, I don't think I could not say that this goes further than LDS beliefs.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:06] I want to read to you guys some headlines. This is Thursday, May 12, 2022. Mother accused of killing her children in West Hills California believe they were possessed by demons. Beautiful woman, blonde, looks just like Lori. Accused of killing her three young children inside her West Hills California home believing they were possessed by demons. Her teenage son helped her do it. We have Matthew Coleman, the surf teacher, surf teacher who killed both of his children by taking them across the border San Diego surf teacher to cross the border to Mexico killing them both because they had serpent DNA.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:47] And we have a young girl, this was one we covered. Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Claudia Hernandez murdered her child along Arley was her name. She was three years old along with her father and brother in a hours long exorcism inside of the church that the family owned and tortured her and forcibly grabbed her neck, torso, back, smothering her repeatedly tried to pry open her mouth to remove the demon and killed her.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:18] So my point being is, and I brought up terrorism and extreme beliefs. If, if we pinpoint extreme beliefs to one religion, we're not doing justice to extreme beliefs in general. And thus I am, I am broadening the criticism. I am not excusing it because it is not okay to see this happening over and over and over again. But extreme beliefs are dangerous and they seem to be more prominent these days with conspiracy theories online and not seen evidence for what it is. And it is in the Bible that children are possessed and you know it is, it is in qanon beliefs that deepen deep demon serpent DNA exists.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:14] Their extreme beliefs are happening and if we don't look at evidence, I just, I just feel like it's a broader conversation to discuss and Christianity is susceptible, any religion is susceptible to extreme beliefs. And when you start to believe in magical thinking, anything crime can and does happen over and over and over again. And that's why I'm broadering broadening this conversation because it's not okay and religions are susceptible to this and I'm not discounting the specific LDS theology John that you brought up but I do want to say there is theology in many sects of Christianity and, and they should not be discounted.

John Dehlin [02:34:06] Absolutely. Amen. And there can be new age woo, you know, new age weirdness that that can lead to apocalyptic Things non Christian traditions can also have it. Secular people can have dangerous views. So it's not like I'm even anti religion. I think we all just want to see religions clean up their act, get rid of the harm and then just keep doing good. I think we all have that motivation. I don't think any of us consider ourselves anti Mormon or anti Christian. I just think we want to see less harm being done.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:41] I know. Just like this. J.J. smith, don't lump Jesus Christ into this mess. No, I am. He removed serpent. He removed Jesus Christ and I have identified him as a Christian myself. In other episodes, he removed, did exorcisms on people and he removed evil spirits. And if we can't look at this in a broader area, if you are putting your blinders on and deciding that it is only one thing to blame, you know, then you're not. You're doing a disservice to this issue as a whole. I just, I hope that all of us are humble enough to look at our own belief system here and to see how maybe we can step back and realize that any belief system can, can be very dangerous.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:27] It can also be beautiful. Christ also taught love one another and to not judge. He also did exorcisms. So I just think we need to be honest with what we believe and how in the wrong hands, beliefs can be extreme and very dangerous.

John Dehlin [02:35:45] Yeah, and I'll just. Yeah. I mean, that's so powerful. And you are Christian, Lauren, so it's not like you're hating on Christ. And by the way, for those who haven't thought about this a little bit, you can still believe Jesus was divine, but maybe just whoever wrote the Bible got that story about Jesus casting the pigs out of the. Casting the evil spirits out of the man and then the evil spirits going to the pig. Pigs and then the pigs run off the cliff. Like you can still believe Jesus was divine and just say, hey, maybe whoever wrote the Bible got that story wrong. Maybe they interpreted it wrong.

Lauren Matthias [02:36:20] Yeah, but it's interpretation. It's interpretation. And, and trust me, the, the, the LDS faith that I was raised in never talked about harming children or casting, you know, you know, demons in children. I know, and I'm, I'm talking for myself, not others in the LDS spaces. So let me clarify. Like, that was my interpretation growing up. That doesn't mean others didn't, weren't taught those beliefs. But any, as you point out, it's all interpretation in you just. We just have to understand that extreme beliefs start in a magical belief system. And it, it might be interpretation. And if it's interpretation, are you interpreting it wrong? If it's interpretation, should we like process this together and talk about this and, and explain how like one belief that might be beautiful to you and make your life better could be really damaging to somebody else? Like that's a conversation to be had.

John Dehlin [02:37:13] Yeah, we have to be able to have it.

Meagan Connor [02:37:15] Well, I agree, I agree. And I just want to add to, you know, to what you're saying, Lauren too, that, you know, I, I totally agree with what you're saying and thank you for the challenge for all of us to examine our beliefs and to see where they might be harmful to someone else. I guarantee you every single one of us has a belief right now, whether it's religious or otherwise, that's harmful or damaging to someone else. The other thing I want to point out is that religion, and particularly high demand religion is dangerous in the hands of mentally ill people. And so I will just say people with personality disorders, people with narcissistic tendencies, people with traits of narcissism, all of those people are going to have an element of extremism to any religion that they come to.

Meagan Connor [02:38:06] And so, you know, that's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about educating people about narcissism and manipulation and control, coercive control tactics. Because in the hands of the wrong people, you know, religion and other high demand systems can become really problematic for, for people with these types of traits. So we need to all be aware of what the traits are and how to defend against them. And we all need to be aware of our own traits, traits that tend to narcissism. We all have jealousy, spite, anger, all of these things that, that made Lori and Chad what they are. We all have elements of that in ourselves.

Meagan Connor [02:38:48] And if we don't confront those traits and address them and learn how to be healthier and to interact in healthier ways with people, we're all in danger of harming someone.

John Dehlin [02:38:59] Absolutely.

Meagan Connor [02:39:00] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [02:39:01] And sorry, I just keep going back. I think this is maybe just like, I just want to say this too. You know, there was somebody, it was pointed out in the chat and I'm going to read it. Rose. I think we called Rose out earlier, but I actually have compassion for this comment. Rose, she says, is, is Lauren lds? Is she not going to stand up for our faith?

Lauren Matthias [02:39:23] And so, so I want to say something too. I think I, I, I might be the only one that still remains LDS with my, my membership here. Not that I want to talk really Talk too much about my personal beliefs. That's something I steer clear of. I just always make it known, sort of when covering this case because I feel it's only fair to be journalistic and honest.

Lauren Matthias [02:39:44] The LDS faith that I grew up in could never have fathomed this case. And if you want to know why I have been, you can call, obsessed with this case for five and a half years, it's because when I opened the first AP article that I read, that was the Wire, it came down that there were missing children.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:10] I saw a Deseret book author and a beautiful blonde woman who looked like all of my friends moms growing up. And they were like, we're looking for these two and they're missing children. I thought, what in the world? And I.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:26] I couldn't. That was December 2019. And I that moment realized I have to figure this out and I have to understand it, because there is no way that this is happening in the faith that I know, that I love, that gave me comfort as a child, that made me feel like Jesus Christ loved me and that, you know, my family was going to be together forever and taught to be kind. And we're all brothers and sisters, like. Like this is foreign to me.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:56] And so for the past five and a half years, I have been trying to understand this to the point where we're here today. And I have. I have been a true journalist and I have discovered all of those things you just stated, John, that are my beliefs, that I grew up with, that, like, maybe I didn't process that I refused to see, that I had blinders on.

Lauren Matthias [02:41:23] And I have found some deep humility in the way that I was raised versus other people versus what my faith really did and does teach. And I have opened myself to understanding how certain beliefs that I maybe thought were beautiful can actually be really, really harmful.

Lauren Matthias [02:41:43] And that's been really valuable for me. And I would hope that anyone here with any belief they have, whether you are evangelical or Mormon or ex Mormon, that, like, we have enough humility when people are starting to be harmed over and over and over again, that we take a look at how, even if it would never affect us, and even if the book Visions of Glory inspired you, because I think it has inspired people and they didn't read that one, you know, thing. And even if the Book of Mormon has inspired you, you know, Laban and Lemuel and that story is in there too, it's problematic.

Lauren Matthias [02:42:21] This Bible has a lot of problematic stories. Like, even if you think, no, it's you know, it's the other, it's the other person's problem. It's the Mormons who aren't Christian. It's, you know, this crazy offshoot of Mormonism. It's Christianity. I mean, it's so easy to say that it's not our belief. And I would just hope that if children are being murdered over and over again, and I read you a lot of headlines from a lot of different faiths that maybe we just sit back and eat some humble pie and process how extreme beliefs happen and how maybe we can not be part of the problem, but help it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:08] Love it.

John Dehlin [02:43:08] Amen. Lots of love coming in the, in the comments for you, Lauren, and for you, Meagan. Gerardo, you can't get away without sharing your views on, on the Mormon Christian angle here, so give it to us.

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:24] Yeah, well, I mean, there's very little extra that I could say other than just agree with everybody here that, you know, definitely Mormonism play a key role in, in all of this and, and the teachings and you know, Lori and Chad's theology could not have been possible if Mormonism wasn't there.

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:54] And you know, it. Mormonism was kind of had this perfect recipe with the, with the perfect key elements to sustain a more, you know, crazy narrative or advanced theology that, that, that Chad created and that Lori believed in and that others believed in. You know, like Slima and Alex and Melanie, they all believed in it and they all were raised in mainstream LDs.

Gerardo Sumano [02:44:25] So there was, there was something there that, that brought this to happen. You know, and I, I agree with, with Lauren that there are these type of cases in, in a lot of other religions as well. It is kind of interesting that Mormonism keeps breeding this type of people. You know, we have Ruby, Frankie, Jody, Hildebrand and, and others. You know, we, we, we don't go by a few months without seeing a headline of a Mormon killing their spouse and those sort of cases. So.

John Dehlin [02:45:01] And Gerardo, if I could just add, I, I've had many clients come to me and tell me that, you know, either they received revelation that their spouse was gonna die.

Meagan Connor [02:45:13] Right.

John Dehlin [02:45:14] Or their spouse received revelation that they were going to die for some reason. It's very, very common in Mormonism for spouses to re. Receive revelation that the other is going to die and oftentimes to have insurance policies accordingly. I just want to say it happens a lot. Not to mention all these deaths of wives of Mormon dentists. You know what I mean? Orthodontists. But go ahead, Gerardo. I just want to throw in There.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:41] Yeah, well, that, that, that's, that's all, that's all. I, I.

John Dehlin [02:45:44] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:45] I wanted to add.

John Dehlin [02:45:46] Okay, yeah. One, one piece that, that I think was alluded to, that I would add to my rant is the belief that the response to the behavior that is coming from allegedly demonic possession isn't taking them to the ER or to the behavioral health unit or to the psychiatrist. It's priesthood blessings. Like, we know that Jody Hildebrandt, when she claimed she was having demonic possessions, they didn't take her to the uni up at the University of Utah to admit her to the psych ward. What did they do? They called the Mormon bishop and the Mormon bishop tried to heal her and he couldn't. We know that they were calling Brad.

John Dehlin [02:46:34] What's. I always forget his name. What's the Young Men's presidency member Brad Wilcox. They were calling Brad Wilcox. They were calling Jeremy Yagi, a general authority for the Mormon Church. They were having Kevin Frankie perform priesthood blessings. If you or your loved one is experiencing demonic possession, take them to the er. Take them to the behavioral health unit at your local hospital. Do not call your ministering elders. Do not call your home teachers. Don't call your bishop. Don't call grandpa, don't call a patriarch. Take them to the er. You can save a life that way. Those children of Ruby Frankie's may not have been tortured if Jody Hildebrand had been taken to the uni at the University of Utah.

John Dehlin [02:47:28] And these children and these adults may not have died. If, if Zulema or Melanie or whoever, once they heard Chad or, or Lori talking about spirits and possessions and light and dark and zombies, if they just hadn't been turned into the police or taken to the loony bin to the mental health units. I think we've made the point. Okay, to close out this interview. There are a couple other dark or weird things that I noted.

Key Trial Evidence and Lori's Self-Representation

John Dehlin [02:48:02] One, one, one was just, just this revelation that for both the deaths of JJ and Ty Lee, the investigators felt like they were two person jobs. Was that, that probably wasn't news to any of you, is that correct?

John Dehlin [02:48:20] That for everyone on the panel, it was pretty obvious that both of those murders were likely to be. And probably, I don't know about Tammy, but, But did y' all agree that both the JJ and the Tylee murders were likely two people jobs?

Lauren Matthias [02:48:35] Yes.

Meagan Connor [02:48:36] Yes. And, and they said that about Tammy as well. And my Uncle Rex pointed out that Alex was pretty incompetent unless he had help, you know, and so he was alone in The. In the attempted shooting of Brandon Boudreau. He was alone in the. In the initial attempted shooting of Tammy. And he messed both of those up. But anytime he had help, he was successful.

Gerardo Sumano [02:48:59] Well, that's a good point.

John Dehlin [02:49:02] Anything you want to add to that, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [02:49:05] No. Yeah. What. What Meagan said.

John Dehlin [02:49:08] I'm getting called up for using the term loony bin. It's just a little bit of rhetoric, of course. I mean, like I said, the behavioral health unit of your local hospital or a psychiatrist. I was doing a little bit of rhetoric.

Meagan Connor [02:49:22] The quack house.

Lauren Matthias [02:49:23] Yeah, whatever. Yeah, there you go.

John Dehlin [02:49:25] Sorry. What about the part where Laurie says to Keith, when I. When I. When I'm proven to be right, I'm going to tell you, I told you so. So there was sort of this hubris that she had. Maybe we've already made enough points about Laurie, but.

Meagan Connor [02:49:45] But.

John Dehlin [02:49:46] But there's that just moment where she's like, someday when you see that I'm right, Jesus is going to save me and Chad, and then I'm going to say, I told you so. Keith, that. That was just a little bit over the top for me. Yeah. Maybe we've already made that point enough.

Meagan Connor [02:50:02] Feel free. Yeah, I mean, I. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you.

John Dehlin [02:50:07] No, please, Meagan.

Meagan Connor [02:50:09] No, I just. I just want to say. Yeah, I mean, yeah, we. We've. We've made the top. We've made the point. So. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:50:16] Yeah. And then. And then maybe really disturbing was the end when there's this joke about dancing and. And Keith says, you're very good at dancing, I think, to Laurie. And Laurie basically says, when I'm exonerated, when all this is over, maybe I'll go on Dancing with the Stars. Like we're talking about deaths of her own children, of people close. Of her own former husband, of other people. To make jokes about going on Dancing with the Stars was just so dark. It was such a powerful way to end the interview.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:58] It also made me wonder if he had. She has been following or. Or heard about these other tribe of fraudster figures, you know, like Anna Delvey, who have gone out of jail and go in Dancing with the Stars. But that's just something. I wonder when she said that.

John Dehlin [02:51:21] Yeah.

Meagan Connor [02:51:22] Yeah. It's just another. It's. It's another testament to me that she really believes that people love her and that she really believes that she's going to be exonerated, get out of prison someday and be a celebrity, and everyone's going to worship her.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:37] Lauren, any other final comments regarding any of that.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:41] No, no.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:43] Something that we didn't touch. Touch, John, was the idea what. When she denies the doctrine of light and dark and zombies, didn't that happen where she's asking, she says, no, not. We don't. We don't believe that. Or that didn't happen. And Chad didn't rate. Yeah. It was light or dark.

John Dehlin [02:52:05] I did notice that. I just chalked that up to her lying and denying.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:11] All the facts. Lauren. Lauren and Meagan, did y' all have any other reactions to that?

Lauren Matthias [02:52:15] It was interesting. If anything, I think it shows a little bit of even more deception with her because she did once mention. Oh, she mentioned in Colby's interview with him, too, that she's like, I've never mentioned zombies. That's not my thing. And if you look back at her text, she'll refer to them as Z's.

John Dehlin [02:52:30] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:31] I'm like, oh, was she really trying to avoid responsibility here? Like, she knew what that meant, and she wasn't texting it because she certainly believed in it. We've had witnesses testifying, like Melanie Gibbs, that she actually absolutely called, you know, called Tyler Zombie, and that Melanie was there when Chad Daybell called Lori to say, hey, by the way, Chad is. Or excuse me, Charles Ballo is Ned Schneider, you know, in other words, Zombie, you know, So I think it's kind of fascinating to think, like, is she just trying to, like, avoid that word? And then the light and dark scale that was taught to her, I think, by Chad.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:12] We have emails from Chad, and it says, per your request, Lori, here's your. Here's your whole family history. And then he labels each person light or dark are complete with decimal points. And it starts with, like, this is what you requested. So if she's not openly preaching it, she certainly believes it. But I have wondered, like, is she trying to avoid talking about light and dark and zombies to kind of claim that she doesn't believe this?

Meagan Connor [02:53:40] It.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:41] It's an interesting idea.

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:43] There's also the. I mean, this would be speculative, of course, and maybe a little bit conspiratorial, but it did remind me a little bit of when the LDS church on their website says, we don't believe that people are gonna have their own planets, you know, kind of things. Or like, the idea that when you're talking to other people about your theology, you have to talk to them about the milk before the meat. Because if you, you know, talk about these terms like that there might misrepresent. They're not going to understand it because they. They're not spiritual enough or it'll make

John Dehlin [02:54:18] the order to make the church look bad.

Meagan Connor [02:54:20] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:20] Right. Yeah. So there's this kind of denial, even though they actually believe that. That more that there might become gods and. And create their own planets.

John Dehlin [02:54:31] Yeah. All right, well, really quickly, what can we see? Lori, Laurie's going to be representing herself in the trial coming up. Lauren and Meagan, I imagine y' all will be covering it closely. We'd love to have you back at important points. We, of course, want to remind everyone to please subscribe to hidden true crime YouTube channel. Please subscribe to third verse slash midlife revolution Meagan Connor YouTube channel. They're both important channels. Please support their good work. Lauren and Meagan, will y' all be covering, I imagine, Lori's trial? And is there anything you want to say about the prospects knowing that she's going to be representing herself?

Lauren Matthias [02:55:20] Yeah, I'm glad you're bringing up the trial. I think that a lot of people are very fascinated for stuff I want to say, because Lori is representing herself, and that's certainly intriguing. I'm just with everyone else, like, this is going to be quite the show, like, what is gonna happen?

Lauren Matthias [02:55:37] But I also think this is also. This is about justice for Charles Vallow. And some people say, well, it doesn't matter because she's behind bars forever. I mean, justice is a theological, you know, this. Justice isn't necessarily like, oh, she's behind bars forever. What's this gonna do? Is she going to be punished more? Justice isn't about punishment. Justice is about the belief in, like, acknowledging that what happened to Charles, you know, isn't. Isn't okay. And for her to be being held responsible, whether she's already through serving three consecutive life sentences or not. And Charles Vallow sounded the alarm. And if people had listened to him, he, you know, no, J.J.

Lauren Matthias [02:56:17] and Tyler would still be alive. And Kate Woodcock, that is Charles Valo's sister, she has stated, you know, he was the first one murdered, but she has stated that Charles would have wanted it this way. He would have said, you know, make sure that Tylee and JJ and the children and Tammy get justice first, worry about me later. And that that would have been what Charles would have said and who he was. And he. This trial is important for justice for Charles. And I also think that we might see some really different evidence in this. This trial. The evidence that has come out already of Chandler, Arizona and Gilbert, Arizona, is much different than what the evidence is in Idaho.

Lauren Matthias [02:56:59] You have text messages between the Cox families, Summer and Janice and Lori all discussing and seemingly possibly, what did they know? What did they not know? It's going to be very interesting. And of course, with Lori representing herself, I'm very intrigued. I haven't seen her get angry in court yet, but seeing how angry she got towards Keith Morrison asking all of the questions we want to know, I wonder how long it's going to be before she loses it in, in court. So, yeah, I plan to be there. I'm actually also heading to Arizona for a hearing this week and so I'll be seeing you there. Meagan and everyone else covering the trial.

John Dehlin [02:57:39] Rebecca Loveless, our friend, is asking, when, when is the trial? Hey, Rebecca, we love having you with us. Lauren, Meagan, when is the trial again?

Meagan Connor [02:57:48] So Laurie has a status conference on Tuesday and then jury selection is scheduled to begin on 31 March. Prosecution has said jury selection should take two weeks, but possibly three just because they don't know how Laurie is going to behave during that. Not really knowing the process and the rules.

Meagan Connor [02:58:10] And then the prosecution has said they probably will take about two weeks to present their case, but we don't have an estimate yet from Lori on how long she thinks she will take. So, yes, the fact she's representing herself is interesting and she has been respectful of the judge and the process so far. She's filed several motions, all of which have been denied so far. I think Tuesday we're going to hear about the judge. The judge is going to rule on the motion about whether or not to allow Court TV to have cameras in the courtroom and to live stream the trial.

Meagan Connor [02:58:43] So we'll hear about that on Tuesday and, and then we'll hear. The judges actually has denied all of Lori's motions so far to dismiss the case. And so we'll just, we'll have to wait and see. I, I agree with you, Lauren. She's, she has been even tempered so far, but knowing how she responded to Keith's questions, I think it's pretty likely that she could get activated enough that the judge is going to say, sorry, you're going to have to be reassigned counsel and you're not going to be allowed to represent yourself anymore. Depending on how she goes.

Lauren Matthias [02:59:15] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:59:17] Does she want Court TV to be there?

Meagan Connor [02:59:20] She does not. She's very angry with Court TV. She says that Court TV has been exploiting her and her husband for a 24. 7 commercial and that Court TV is taking advantage of people and, you know, exploration, exploiting them for the tragedies that happen in their lives. And now we know a little bit More insight on what she means by that. She basically is asserting that it's been a tragedy that she's lost so many people in her life and that the media likes to twist it and turn it into crime.

John Dehlin [02:59:50] Interesting. Well, I promised all our super chatters that I would go through their questions or comments and share them. Hopefully, I'll do it really fast. I want to remind everyone, please, like this episode. We've got still 4600 people joined. Please like this episode. Please comment on it. Please subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast. Please share this. It will really help get the word out.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:15] I think only. I think only 2,000 people have liked the episode and there's over almost 5,000 people watching.

John Dehlin [03:00:21] Yeah. So please, please take the time really quick to like this episode. We've Gerard has been doing some analytics and he can show that likes and comments are what drive the success of an episode. Really quickly. Lauren and Meagan and Gerardo, you've already given us three hours. If y' all want or need to drop off, I will let. I will let you do that now. Unless you want to stay on and respond to a few of these super chats. Lauren. Lauren, do you need to run? Are you going to stick around?

Lauren Matthias [03:00:52] I'll stick around for a bit.

Meagan Connor [03:00:53] I might.

Lauren Matthias [03:00:53] I might sneak out for a little restroom break, but I'll just. Yeah, but, yeah, Meagan, you're okay.

Meagan Connor [03:01:00] I'm the same. I may. I may have to sneak out for a restroom break, but I'll. I'll stick around.

John Dehlin [03:01:05] Are you all right?

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:06] Okay, we're gonna do these super chats, hopefully really quick, because we really appreciate the donations that make all this possible. So. D. Salazar says Keith's body language was telling. Seemed like he couldn't wait to leap out of his seat. And I'm gonna ask you guys as panelists, just jump in if you've got responses, or I'll just jump on to the next. To the next episode. Troublemaker Baker says these are great observations for Meagan. Also, I think Troublemaker Baker is also broken baker on YouTube. I'm told that. I'm told that he trouble Broken Baker when he finished his own episode about this stuff, he pointed people in our direction.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:59] And if that was true, Troublemaker Baker is actually a moderator on my channel, and it's a she. And she actually does have a channel as well, but it is Troublemaker Baker.

John Dehlin [03:02:11] Got it. Okay. Well, thanks to Troublemaker Baker for her support. We really appreciate it. And also thank you to Broken Baker for their support really quickly. I told y' all that Nathan Hinckley was doing a service project and fixing up the home of Anna Schreier. The. The. The Assemblies of God, slash. What's the term?

Gerardo Sumano [03:02:47] Pentecostal.

John Dehlin [03:02:48] Pentecostal, yeah. Story that we had. This is a photo of the chimney before Nathan's work. And I believe his son's helping him out, maybe his wife. This is them working on it, and while we've been doing this episode, this is them finishing the job.

John Dehlin [03:03:05] And then this is them outside. This is Nathan and I'm assuming family members along with Anna Schreier there in the middle. Again, we're sharing this just as a way to share some light and some happiness in an otherwise dark episode. Want to thank Nathan. He's got a channel called the bishop's interview on YouTube and we want to thank Nathan and his family for bringing a little light into the world.

John Dehlin [03:03:34] So thanks. Thanks again for that, everyone. All right, we'll go back to the comments. Ms. Mojo Rising says. Do you feel she resented, blamed Tyler and JJ for holding her back, AKA Lori didn't want. Didn't want to be an actor. I'm not exactly sure I understand.

Audience Questions, Final Reflections, and Closing

John Dehlin [03:03:57] Other than Meagan. It looks like Ms. Mojo Rising is just feeling like Lori wanted more out of her life and that maybe Tyler and JJ were getting in the way. What do you think about that theory?

Meagan Connor [03:04:10] Yeah, so she, she did want to be a model. She. She actually did some modeling in her late teenage years, you know, had a portfolio and all of that. I don't know about her wanting to be an actor, but it wouldn't surprise me if she wanted to be famous. And, and I do think that there is an element in the relationship between her and Tylee where she was threatened by Tylee's beauty, she was threatened by Tylee's intelligence. And there is this Jungian concept of the devouring mother. The mother who refuses to allow their child to grow or to. Or to learn or to have their own dreams or their own life. And so the mother sort of hobbles their child's ambition and their self worth and their self belief so that the child doesn't outshine the mother. And I think that's probably a lot of what happened in Lori and Tyler's relationship.

John Dehlin [03:05:03] Yeah, that makes sense. And it's tragic and sad. I mean, I guess another, another thing is like religions sometimes really push people and I'd say women to have kids that maybe they wouldn't otherwise have or want to have. You know, maybe, maybe, maybe we shouldn't push people to have kids as much as, as we do. Because maybe some people shouldn't have kids.

Meagan Connor [03:05:30] You know, some people should never be mothers. That's absolutely true.

John Dehlin [03:05:34] Yeah.

Meagan Connor [03:05:36] And I think especially if. If there are people who don't want to be mothers, they shouldn't be socially pressured to be mothers.

John Dehlin [03:05:43] Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. All right, let's see. Troublemaker Baker says Colby's response to the Dateline interview is really interesting. He's a remarkable young man. Totally love that comment. S. Moore says. Oh, his live last night. On his Live last night, Colby mentioned how Lori blamed Ty Lee even before she was born, that they had a contentious relationship. So that's. Wow. Colby mentioned how Lori blamed Ty Lee before she was born, that they had a contentious relationship. I don't even know what to make of that.

Meagan Connor [03:06:22] He. I think they're basically referring to the fact that, you know, the whole time that Lori was pregnant with Tylee, she would talk about what a struggle it was and how hard it was. And so she blamed Tylee for lots of things throughout Tyler's life and that they. And that they had a problematic relationship.

John Dehlin [03:06:42] All right, Missy Ann, thank you for the super chat. Same to you. LLCD LCD writes nevermo from Berlin. Berlin, Germany. Big fan of you guys. I love how you discuss these painful topics. I learned so much. Even though this is far away from me culturally. I imagine, Lauren, that your channel, Hidden True Clim Crime is overwhelmingly non LDs or never LDs. Have you ever done a poll to find out what percentage of your audience is either Mormon or ex Mormon, or do you even know?

Lauren Matthias [03:07:17] I don't know. But when it comes to the daybell case, there's certainly a lot more LDS listeners than not and LDS and wonderful, you know, people, I think with the same questions that I had.

Meagan Connor [03:07:33] Right.

Lauren Matthias [03:07:33] I think this is certainly a case that makes many of us wonder wtf? And we're trying to understand it. And yeah, when we cover this case, you know, the. And when I say lds, I want to say, maybe I should say more ex Mormon, active Mormon, both. Both sides of the spectrum.

Meagan Connor [03:07:56] For.

Lauren Matthias [03:07:56] For good reasons and great conversation because of it when it comes to this case in particular.

John Dehlin [03:08:02] How about you, Meagan? How about your channel?

Meagan Connor [03:08:06] You know, I. I honestly don't know. I suspect that it's probably. I suspect that not many LDS people watch my channel just because I do offer a lot of criticism about the culture of the church and about the harmful doctrines of the church. I. I do offer, you know, my opinion as an ex Mormon. So I doubt that many Mormons want to tune into My channel, but I wouldn't be surprised. I guess I just don't know for sure.

John Dehlin [03:08:38] I'm doing a poll right now just to see if our current audience. How much of it's LDS, former LDS, or never. Gerardo, you'll find this interesting. As of 233 votes, and I don't know how many is statistically significant, you know, with the sample size of 4400, but 78% are saying they've never been LDs. That's 3/4 of our current audience. 5% identify as LDs of the current audience, and about 20% are former LDs.

Meagan Connor [03:09:13] So I wonder what the poll would be like if you asked Mormon instead of lds. Interesting, because that's a spectrum.

John Dehlin [03:09:22] Yeah, well, I think lds, Former lds, are. Are never lds. That. I think that captures pretty much everyone. But I see what you're saying. Okay, we'll keep voting. Let's see if those numbers change. Amore of Alessi says Gerardo is sage. Now, what do you think, Lauren and Meagan, what vote do you give Gerardo as, like, a alternate panel? I mean, we're never going to give up on Mindy. Mindy's not going anywhere. Gerardo, I'm sorry to tell you, Mindy's not going anywhere. But what's our vote for Gerardo as a rotating substitute or panelist? Do we want to. Do we want to raise our right hands? All in favor of Gerardo as a panelist? All in favor?

Meagan Connor [03:10:10] Well, I do have to say if her. If this is an audition for the band, Gerardo showed up to the audition without a binder, which is okay, because, you know, that's Mindy's thing. I do. I love. I love Gerardo's insights and input. And, you know, from the very beginning, Gerardo, you've had some great insights on this case, and I really appreciate your perspective.

Gerardo Sumano [03:10:32] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [03:10:32] Did you notice Lawrence knows the case? He knows the case, so.

John Dehlin [03:10:37] Yeah, I was just kidding. All right. Beautiful. Gerardo. Yeah, we agree. Gerardo, you're amazing. Tracy says, do you think Chad believes. I think we already answered that. Is that right?

Meagan Connor [03:10:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:49] Thanks for the super chat. Susan Groom writes, she told herself these things so many times. She believes all these visions and revelations. That's Susan voting that that Lori believes her own delusions or lies. Care for JCYT Says she can't be a bad person. So Tyler did it. That's speaking to this sort of narcissism idea that narcissists just don't take responsibility. They have to find someone to blame. Again, y' all Jump in at any point. I'm just going through these.

Lauren Matthias [03:11:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:24] Sally Osling says she's met her grandchildren in the spirit world. Did y' all hear that one? I didn't know that.

Meagan Connor [03:11:33] Wait, what was that? Oh, yeah, my brain just pulled that out.

Lauren Matthias [03:11:36] She told Colby. She told Colby that she knew about her grandchild being born and that she.

Meagan Connor [03:11:42] Oh, right.

Lauren Matthias [03:11:43] Yeah. You know, she sort of similar to, you know, talking to Tammy Daybell and, you know, knowing what Tyler wanted and that she was happy. You know, is this like the same old. So, yeah, she. She had relationships with her grandchildren. Children, too.

Meagan Connor [03:11:57] Yeah. She told Colby that she. That she held her grandbaby and loved her and that the grandbaby loved Lori. And I think that was sort of a. A dig to say Colby, you know, let me have a relationship with her. I already know her. I knew her in the. You know, in the pre. Existence.

John Dehlin [03:12:16] Yeah.

Meagan Connor [03:12:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:18] Gerardo, you say you gotta run, so. No worries. We really appreciate you spending three and a half hours with us on a Sunday day. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:24] Thanks, everybody. It was great.

John Dehlin [03:12:26] Yeah, thanks. Gerardo wants to be home, but I promised our super chatters I would finish reading these. I'm gonna read them all. Take care, Gerardo. Have a great day.

Gerardo Sumano [03:12:34] You, too. Bye. Bye.

John Dehlin [03:12:37] So Missy Ann says Colby said after his reaction that he thinks something is visiting her, but not Jesus. I believe you can invite possession by things Lori did, like castings. So that's Missy Ann and maybe Colby believing that she's getting deceptive demonic visitors that she believes are Jesus but really are satanic visitors. And Joseph Smith's own revelations in Doctrine and Covenants allow for deceptive spirits to visit you. And he even gives you, like, a handshake test where if you're being visited by an angelic visitor, you should shake. This is literally in Mormon canonized scripture in 2025. Joseph Smith says you should extend your hand. If they shake your hand and you can feel a hand there, then they're a resurrected being.

John Dehlin [03:13:34] So they're a real positive, good resurrected angel. If you stick out your hand and they refuse to shake it, they're a good angel that hasn't been resurrected yet. So you should trust them because they don't try and shake your hand, but they just haven't been resurrected. If they go to shake your hand but you can't feel a hand there, then you know that they're a demon. And that's the test according to Joseph Smith. And I don't. I don't mean to mock anyone's sacred religious beliefs. But like, that's Mormon doctrine. Did you know that, Lauren? Did you know that was in the Doctrine and Covenants?

Lauren Matthias [03:14:14] I, I have, I've heard that. I think I've learned that from you in Mormon Stories. Yeah. Another time, maybe somewhere else. Yeah, I think I've heard it. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:14:23] Any, any thoughts? Do we think that Colby believes that his mom is being visited by, by demons, by deceptive spirits?

Lauren Matthias [03:14:33] No, I don't think he believes that. He is, he is Christian. But in recorded phone calls between Lori and him that they've even played in court. No, he, he, he rebukes her for, you know, even kind of suggesting that, that she's getting visits from angels.

John Dehlin [03:14:51] Okay. All right, Nikki Peaches writes. What do you all think of the use of temple images during the episode? Do you think the Mormon Church will put out a statement basically trying to distance itself and thank you, Nikki Peaches, for the, for the donation?

Meagan Connor [03:15:12] I mean, no, I, I think they've been silent on this case up to this point. I don't think they, they probably don't see any reason to jump in now and say anything at this point.

John Dehlin [03:15:23] Is it unfair, Lauren, to, as the resident Mormon, and I say that just tongue in cheek. Is it, is it fair that the temple images are included? Do you think that's smearing the church? I mean, wasn't Laurie a temple worker up until the very end?

Lauren Matthias [03:15:38] Yeah, she was. I mean, no, I don't, I don't think it's bad. I mean, I have a lot of beliefs in what the church should do PR wise. And I'm, I'm, and I'm. When I think that, I think of, like, what would help them and it's making the temple a lot more public and open. So I don't think that's a, I don't think it's smearing the church to have pictures of temples and inside the temple. A lot was happening in the temple.

John Dehlin [03:16:06] So, yeah, I went ahead and closed the poll. But 74% of our audience today has never been Mormon. Something like, something like 20% are former Mormon and 7% are active LDS. I love it. I love our active, believing LDS listeners. I love your feedback. I love that you're listening. I hope you always feel respected. On Mormon Stories podcast, A. Connor says, excellent discussion. Thanks for the super chat.

John Dehlin [03:16:36] A. Connor. Vala Hauk says, you look at how Charles Manson was able to brainwash his followers into killing innocent people and children without even being there themselves. So that's Vala just basically saying brainwashing is a thing and you don't need to be there to be able to influence people to murder. And I think that's objectively true.

John Dehlin [03:17:04] So that's just the dark world that we live in. Jump in Meagan or Lauren, if you've got anything to add there. Ms. Mojo Rising says, I would like to see all the cutting room floor of the, of the interview with Keith. Do you think it's just rambling Lauren and Meagan or do you think there's good stuff? I mean, obviously I want to see the full Lauren, Matthias and Dr. John parts of the interview. That's the stuff that I'm most interested in because they're superstars. But do you think other than that amazing portion, do you think the rest was rambling or. And they would have included all of it if it was good or.

Lauren Matthias [03:17:44] No, I, I think it's probably fascinating to many of us. But I understand too, like they Dateline is a storytelling platform. They have a story to tell. They can't just play 90 minutes of Lori Valo and you know, I, I or 90 minutes. I wish they could. It would be nice if they figured out a way to put more of it on their website for us to all watch and learn from. But yeah, and when I say learn from, I don't mean we're going to learn life lessons from Lori. I mean learn what in the world could possibly, you know, she was thinking, yeah, yeah.

Meagan Connor [03:18:28] I found it was interesting when Keith pointed out that, that she was giving parenting advice and she was talking about her parenting style. But I think Keith also mentioned using

John Dehlin [03:18:39] love and logic parenting. Like Margi read that book. I'm like, what are you trying to be like the perfect Mormon mom role model here? Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, Meagan.

Meagan Connor [03:18:49] No, that's okay. I think, I think she is, I think she's trying to, to still put out that narrative that she's a great parent. But Keith did mention in one of the Post interview interviews that he will be going on the Dateline podcast this Wednesday and he will talk more about some of the other questions that he asked and, and some of the other things that Lori said. So maybe we'll get some audio.

John Dehlin [03:19:16] Okay. All right, I'll have to check that out. Dog mom writes in my own personal opinion. I thought Lori sounded very much so, like a Scientologist, not so much lds. Wow, that's a hot take, Dog Mom. And I'm not going to say that's an invalid comment. Does that resonate with you all that she sounds more Scientologist than Mormon?

Meagan Connor [03:19:41] You know, I don't know enough about Scientology to know whether that's really accurate, other than the fact that, you know, Scientology teaches that we have some kind of alien being inside of us that needs to be let out. I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [03:19:57] I. I see things. I think that Lori Vallow's extremism, if you want my personal belief, comes from multiple places. Her Mormonism, but also some of her political beliefs and some other kind of really strong, extreme beliefs. And I think that there's a little bit of a hybrid thing going on with Lori and Chad that isn't addressed probably enough, in my opinion. I think that Leah Satilli does a good job of that in her book addressing it. But, yeah, I think there's certainly a lot more to this belief system, I'll just say, than LDS or Christian beliefs.

John Dehlin [03:20:38] All right. Okay. Let's see. The next comment is from Lisa. She was wearing the ring in jail. I think that's Lisa just. Either she noticed it or she's. She's surprised about it. But I guess. I guess there's talking. They're talking about the makeshift ring. Is that. Is that what we're talking about there, Laura?

Gerardo Sumano [03:21:03] Yes.

Meagan Connor [03:21:04] She's wearing a ponytail holder on a ring finger. And, you know, they reminded us, Melanie Gibb reminded us in the interview, the Dateline interview, that there's no divorce for exalted beings. So she and Chad are going to be together for the next, you know, how many forevers.

John Dehlin [03:21:23] That's. That's fascinating. It's still hard to believe that she really believes that her and Chad are going to be whisked away by Jesus before the death sentence. And I wonder if will. Will Chad will face the death penalty, Is that right?

Meagan Connor [03:21:38] That's right.

John Dehlin [03:21:40] And if he does, I wonder if Keith will go back and interview her at that point, that point, and see what she has to say.

Meagan Connor [03:21:46] I hope not. Who cares what she has to say after that?

John Dehlin [03:21:50] Yeah, that's fair. Jane Francis says the LDS Church is way past the time they should have condemned visions of glory. I think everybody on this panel would agree, correct?

Meagan Connor [03:22:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:22:04] And they still can. Condemn visions of glory.

Meagan Connor [03:22:08] It's never too late to condemn visions of glory. It's never too late to tell faithful, believing LDS members they should not be going to fringe conferences that are not supported by the official church. It's never too late for the church to come out and say these people took our beliefs and twisted them and went too far. It's never too late for them to say anything that would prevent the harm of More people

John Dehlin [03:22:33] love it. Amen. Thanks to Lauren Sinkonen for her super chat. Jane Francis also writes or possibly afraid of being declared dark themselves. And next on the murder list. I don't know what she's referring to there. Do y' all know?

Meagan Connor [03:22:50] It was too long ago. Sorry.

John Dehlin [03:22:52] Okay. All right. Well, thanks, Jane Francis, for the support. I don't know this comment either. Ry Woodruff is saying dual poll on Alex Murphy's what Art?

Meagan Connor [03:23:04] I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:23:06] Yeah, I don't know. Okay, sorry. I don't know what that is. We have a vote from some nobody that the band name needs to be Visions of Glory. Is that too triggering, y'? All?

Meagan Connor [03:23:16] Yeah. No, no, thank you.

Lauren Matthias [03:23:19] I thought that was hilarious.

Meagan Connor [03:23:21] It's funny. It's funny. But I don't think we're gonna stick with that one. I think we should. Maybe we should be. You know, based on the interview. On the Dateline interview, maybe we should. Should call ourselves Jesus's favorite.

Lauren Matthias [03:23:33] I don't know. I kind of like Visions of Glory because it gives some different SEO to. I mean, maybe if helps it, though, I don't know, like, you know, directs people.

Meagan Connor [03:23:43] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [03:23:44] It redirects people, you know? Yeah. Like, wait a minute.

John Dehlin [03:23:47] Okay. I love it. I love it. Okay. Lisa says total respect for Lauren's work and her candor. And I think that also goes for Dr. John. Lauren, y' all are doing great work.

Lauren Matthias [03:24:00] You can. I. I'm gonna say something. I can tell a lot of people in chat. I mean, this is like, same old. This is actually, like, for the past five years, talking about what I believe or how. They don't think that they can believe what I. They can't believe what I believe or that I believe this or that. I don't believe this. Reddit's got, like, whole threads on this.

John Dehlin [03:24:23] Well, you're like an apologist and you're. You're here to.

Lauren Matthias [03:24:26] I can tell you guys this. Nobody knows what I believe or.

John Dehlin [03:24:32] Or don't. What you don't believe. Right. Nobody doesn't know.

Lauren Matthias [03:24:36] Meagan doesn't. No. Just kidding.

Meagan Connor [03:24:38] Love it, Lauren.

John Dehlin [03:24:39] But.

Lauren Matthias [03:24:40] Yeah, But. But go ahead, everyone. Yeah, keep speculating.

John Dehlin [03:24:43] Speculating. You have such a good attitude about the. The haters and the critics. You. You're having fun with them. You're not getting offended or hurt. Is that just journalist thick skin or is that just. Just your personality?

Lauren Matthias [03:24:55] Probably mix them both.

John Dehlin [03:24:57] Okay.

Meagan Connor [03:24:57] Yeah. And everybody in the chat is saying now, it was Visions of Gory was the band name. Vote not Visions.

John Dehlin [03:25:05] I misread it. That's Dark. We'll have to be like a scream death metal band. If we're going to call it Visions

Meagan Connor [03:25:11] of Glory, maybe we should call it Delusions of Glory. Ooh.

John Dehlin [03:25:17] Okay. All right. All right. Emily, Christina says, I just want to point out that people with mental illness are much more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators. Chad and Lori are narcissists and use religion to justify their actions. Emily, that's a great point. I think it's mathematically factual, so thanks for sharing that, Emily. Thank you to C. Peace for the super chat. Also, Raven doll writes, just because she does not want Court TV at her trial is not a. I'll say, not a reason that judge should allow them to film the trial. So I think she's saying it's not necessarily true that the judge should allow them to fill the trial just because she doesn't want it filmed. Meagan, as someone close to this, would you prefer it not be filmed or would you prefer it be filmed?

Meagan Connor [03:26:17] You know, I. I fight with myself about it because I stand by my statement that I wish, you know, there would be no more journalists and no more cameras in the courtroom, because that's exactly what Laurie wants. Right.

Meagan Connor [03:26:29] And. And I'm just going to point out, too, Laurie wants to be in control of the narrative more than anything else. And so she wants specifically for Court TV not to be the ones to have cameras in the. In the courtroom, But I guarantee you she wants cameras there. She want. She loves the attention. She. She wants to be filmed and photographed.

Meagan Connor [03:26:51] You know, I. It makes it easier for people like me who can't physically be there for the entire trial if there are cameras in the courtroom. So I'm for it. I think it's a matter of public interest. And I also think that it's. It's important for. As we're doing now, to speak up about Lori and her beliefs so that more people are aware and don't get duped and manipulated. So that's. That's just my personal take.

John Dehlin [03:27:18] Lauren, I know you've spoken to this a little bit already today. Anything you want to add?

Lauren Matthias [03:27:22] Yeah, no, I. I hope that there are cameras in the courtroom. There were not cameras for her last trial. There was audio only. In the fact that Lori tries to say that doesn't happen, that doesn't happen, that didn't happen. I would love for people to see the evidence firsthand and to know the truth of this.

Lauren Matthias [03:27:46] So. So I. I hope that there are cameras. And that's why I think I'm going to attempt to go to this status hearing. Actually, there's been a lot going on in my life too. Like I have a flight tomorrow, I am debating. So I am still trying to decide if I am going or not, but I might be there and that's one reason I will be there. If I go is I think, think I think it's going to be really interesting to find out if they are going to have cameras in the courtroom. And I absolutely hope they do.

John Dehlin [03:28:14] All right. N4A writes, do you think the belief that Mormonism is the one true church is dangerous? Other Christian religions are not so extreme and exclusionary. Well, as the host of Mormon stories, I would say yes, it's dangerous, you know, but not just because it can lead to murder. Obviously most Mormons don't murder and most Mormons are on average, really just nice, kind, smart, thoughtful people.

John Dehlin [03:28:43] But I think it leads to pride, I think it leads to judgment, I think it leads to hubris and I think it deteriorates faith. Because if it's an all or nothing one exclusive true church or false, then when the church makes big errors like covering up pedophilia, covering up sex abuse, you know, covering up financial fraud, then the members are like, okay, it was all or nothing. God's church wouldn't work this way. So I quit. Whereas if it's just like, hey, we're all doing our best, we're going to make mistakes, I think allegiance to the church can bend but not break. Whereas if it's so absolute, it it that has a tendency to break and most, most ex Mormons end up being atheists or agnostics and don't join any church.

John Dehlin [03:29:34] I think that these absolutist truth claims are fatal to belief overall, which some might say is a good thing, others may not. But Meagan and Lauren, anything you want to add about the one true church claim?

Lauren Matthias [03:29:48] I want to say if you think your church, whatever your church is, is the one true church, if you think your one belief is the only belief, political, religious, if you think your guy is the only true guy, if you think your person, if you think, if you, if you believe the Bible is the only true book on this earth, I don't care whether it's Mormonism or Catholicism or your political belief in a politician. If you think, you know, to quote Christ, I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man cometh unto the Father. If you think your way is the only way, take a look at yourself.

Lauren Matthias [03:30:32] And I noticed in that comment that they said that like, do you think it's problematic that Mormons do this because Christians, other Christians don't. Where, you know, Christ said in the Bible, I'm the way, the truth and life. If you think Christian, if you think Christianity is the. The only way and that Christ is the only way that saves, that's a belief system of one truth. If, if you can't broaden yourself to think that maybe there's more out there, I hope that you might consider that.

John Dehlin [03:31:05] Amen. All right. I think Meagan already addressed this. I think Keith also addressed it. Cynthia asks any evidence that Lori is smart at all? I feel like she was elevated based on pretty privilege and manipulation learned by the lds. Meagan, you would know best. Is Lori smart?

Meagan Connor [03:31:30] I think. I think her level of intelligence has more with more to do with how she is able to get what she wants. So she's smart enough to, you know, thus far, or at least prior to her arrest, to. To manipulate people to get what she wants. So that level of intelligence. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:31:53] Anything you want to add? I mean, Keith. Keith thought she was intelligent. Anything else you want to add to that, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [03:32:03] No, I.

John Dehlin [03:32:04] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:04] I think. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:06] All right. Chantelle Buchla says we the band should interview Melanie and that we'll get the truth. Is Melanie Gibb doing interviews?

Meagan Connor [03:32:15] Well, she appeared on the Dateline interview, so, yeah, she was.

John Dehlin [03:32:19] Can we get her?

Meagan Connor [03:32:20] That was.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:21] That was an old interview.

Meagan Connor [03:32:22] That was it.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:23] Yeah, that was an old interview she did for Dateline years and years ago. You could. Yeah.

Meagan Connor [03:32:27] Yeah. Thank you for that.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:29] Yeah. Same clothes, same set.

John Dehlin [03:32:31] Do you think she'd do it or is she just trying to disappear?

Lauren Matthias [03:32:36] I think she's certainly trained to lay low.

John Dehlin [03:32:38] Okay.

Meagan Connor [03:32:39] Yeah, she'll probably be called, don't you think, Lauren for to testify in this case?

Lauren Matthias [03:32:45] Yeah, I think a lot of these people can't speak either. And so she will most likely be a witness once again in Charles. In. In the murder trial for Charles Vallow.

Meagan Connor [03:32:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:57] All right. Three more super chats. Unless more come in. So Saipua. Sounds. Sounds Greek. My ex also received revelation of my death. See, it's not just us and we planned accordingly. Funeral prep, bucket list trips, upping life insurance three times boob job. Why would you get a boob job if you know you're gonna die coercive repenting to prepare me to meet my maker. That. I mean we. There's. You could look at that as being funny, but also you could also look at that as being sad and tragic. Regardless, I'm really grateful for that share and for the super chat. Y' All. Why. Why would boob job come into hearing that you're gonna die soon?

Meagan Connor [03:33:52] Making the most out of life means different things to different people.

John Dehlin [03:33:55] People. Okay, okay. All right. No shade. No shade. Any reactions to that? That's just. Okay, I'll. I'll keep going. Sylvia Cran says nevermore. Here. Thank you for your work. Love all your channels. And then finally, this may be the last super chat for the day. Lauren Peterson says you can't be assigned a lawyer if you've already waived your right to counsel. Pro bono trials are called slow guilty pleasure for a reason. I don't even know what Lauren's saying there.

Meagan Connor [03:34:26] I agree with. Well, so. So we were talking about. I. I made the comment that if Lori went too far off base, that the judge could remove her her right to represent herself, and that is actually true in the state of Arizona, because I researched it. If Lori goes too far outside the scope or if she starts pontificating or testifying or she's not following the court's rules, the judge has the right to revoke her right to. To represent herself, and she absolutely will be resigned. Right now, she has advisory counsel to attorneys that are helping her prepare her pleas and motions. And so those attorneys could be assigned to her or reassigned to her as. As representing her if she goes too far off the deep end.

John Dehlin [03:35:17] All right. Oh, here we go. Look. Look, John. Looks like garbage compared to just six years ago. Thank you, Huggy Bear. I appreciate it.

Meagan Connor [03:35:26] Let's see a picture of you, Huggy Bear. You, now, and you, six years ago.

John Dehlin [03:35:31] Hey, Lauren and Meagan, you're not the only ones that get comments about your appearance sometimes.

Meagan Connor [03:35:36] I know.

Lauren Matthias [03:35:36] I'm actually over here laughing because I'm like, that's, like, really refreshing.

Meagan Connor [03:35:39] I'm like, finally, someone's not looking at Arlo looks. You look like crap. I think you look great, John.

John Dehlin [03:35:53] Thank you. I just had to share that. All right, well, they didn't even do a super chat, okay? So thank you again. Meagan, your channel is Midlife Revolution or Third Verse or even Meagan Connor. You can find that on YouTube. Please subscribe and like her channel. Meagan, anything you want to say before we wrap up?

Meagan Connor [03:36:18] You know, you asked a while back if there is anything that any one of us would ask Lori if we had the opportunity to interview her. And I think I. You know, I used to want to interview her because I wanted to kind of know what was going on in her brain. And now that we've have this interview, I don't need to, because I. I Do see what she. You know, where her head is at. But I think if I had the opportunity to ask her even one question, I think what I would ask her is, when are the times in your life that you feel genuinely guilty about something that you did that was wrong?

Meagan Connor [03:37:03] And I would love to hear her answer on that, because I think people who have narcissistic tendencies, people who have a lack of empathy and an inability to take responsibility for their own actions, that's a really tough question for them to answer because it forces them to remove their mask, at least for themselves, and be introspective and examine their own behavior and say, when is the time that I really felt guilty about something that I did? When did I do something wrong? When did I do something that really harmed another person?

Meagan Connor [03:37:39] You know, they really don't have the ability to do that. And. And so I think that that would at least be telling from the standpoint of, you know, she would have to be introspective. All of that being said, I have no wish to talk to Lori at all. I think that the real Lori

Lauren Matthias [03:37:57] was

Meagan Connor [03:37:57] gone a long time ago. I think that she is buried under her delusion, and I don't think she'll ever come out again. So I don't really have a desire to engage with her in any way.

John Dehlin [03:38:10] Sharita hall is saying, don't, Meagan. She will hurt you if she can.

Meagan Connor [03:38:15] She can't hurt me. I'm bully proof.

John Dehlin [03:38:17] That's good. Heather Ruth says, how dare John look different six years later like the rest of us? Thanks, Heather. I'm not offended at all, by the way. I'm really not.

Lauren Matthias [03:38:30] You look great, John. I know. I hope you. I want to say I was. I was teasing you, but you look great. And then people are, like, calling me out. They're like, lauren has a filter. And I'm like, yeah, I do. I have a skin filter on and I have Botox and I need it again. And aging is beautiful. All the above. But you look great, John.

John Dehlin [03:38:47] I love it that we're owning and just having fun. And Kelly J. Says, I love you guys. Laugh at trolls instead of getting mad. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, so, Meagan, you're amazing. You're. You're. I'm so proud to have you as part of the band. I'm so honored to call you as a friend. Thank you so much for joining us today. We love you.

Meagan Connor [03:39:09] Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. I. I'm so grateful to have this wonderful band to unpack all of this with it really does help me heal. It helps me process. And I'm grateful for your supportive viewers. And Lauren, your hidden gems are wonderful and have been so supportive of me and my channel. And John, you've been a wonderful friend and mentor and I owe a lot of my channel success to both of the two of you. So I'm always grateful to have conversations with you.

John Dehlin [03:39:40] Hey, congrats on the 10,000 number.

Meagan Connor [03:39:42] Thank you. It's almost up to 11 now.

John Dehlin [03:39:45] Amazing.

Meagan Connor [03:39:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:39:46] Lauren, what are your final comments or words? We're so happy you were able to join us today. And also Dr. John's always welcome as a member of the band. He could be our yoko ono. Tell Dr. John he could be our Yoko Ono.

Meagan Connor [03:40:00] No. Then he'll take Lauren away.

Lauren Matthias [03:40:05] John says hello. You know, we always have a hard time jumping on these things together because, you know, the idea is great to have, you know, co host espouses, you know, you do it with Margi. But we do have a young child and, you know, he's been out there all day, you know, taking, you know, parenting. So we're always having to, you know, do a switch. But I think we're actually just, you know, gonna, we're gonna go on Patreon to talk about this. Our thoughts. I'm gonna dig into the psychology of Lori later with my husband John because he's a criminal psychologist for those that know or don't know. And he has some thoughts about this Dateline episode. We haven't gone public on our channel this week, but we'll be doing a patreon episode@patreon.com do crime. If you guys want to check that out. We're going to record later today.

John Dehlin [03:40:58] Oh, cool. So you'll release it around when? Approximately.

Lauren Matthias [03:41:01] I think we're going to release it tonight. So our Patreon episodes, we do audio only and we just, it's like behind the scenes, non edited. We just like turn our phone recorder on. So we're like sitting at the table talking. It just. That feels easier. I have some personal stuff going on in my life and so a lot of people have been asking us my thoughts. We were gonna go live last night. I opted not to. So what we're gonna do is just do a very kind of simple behind the scenes episode where I asked Ask John all my questions and to see what he thinks from a criminal psychologist point of view, what he thinks about Lori's thoughts.

Lauren Matthias [03:41:39] So that's. We're gonna do it, we'll do something later on YouTube, but you know, we're taking a break right now, but I'm glad I could come on here. This was, this was great. This was needed. And, you know, just so you know, John, I've been thinking about, like, what question I would ask Lori Valo this entire episode. Since you, you, you pitched that question to me.

Lauren Matthias [03:42:00] I'm trying to, like, think of something super profound. And, you know, honestly, you got me. Like, I think I would probably just like, shoot the breeze with her and talk about makeup and chapstick and her life and, you know, what she thinks about politics and the way the world. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess politics is pretty heavy, but I think what I'm just most interested in. I don't want to hear what she has to say. I guess I don't want to any more of her excuses. I've heard them all. Like, it's exhausting. I think I remain intrigued by her with just how she is as a person.

Lauren Matthias [03:42:36] Like, you know, and maybe little slips or maybe tells, you know, slips of the mask or little tells that I might get from just shooting the breeze with her and, and being her friend, which sounds appalling and kind of contradictory since I said I am so mad that Keith said that he was her friend. And I'm like sitting here saying, like, I'd like to know what that would be like. I get it. I get it. Hypocritical. But I, I think that's, you know, that's probably what I would want to ask her. And honestly, and hopefully, you know, Shane Bishop, the producer from Dateline is listening.

Lauren Matthias [03:43:09] Or Keith Morrison. But I've always been more interested in what Chad Dable has to say. So, you know, I don't know how easy it is to get into death row, but I. I am waiting and I hope someone snags that interview.

John Dehlin [03:43:23] I love it. All right, well, Lauren, again, just like with Meagan, we're just so thrilled to have you as a part of our channel. We wish. And your channel. You're about to pass Mormon stories in subscribers, which, by the way, I'm thrilled about. So y' all are.

Lauren Matthias [03:43:37] I'm not.

John Dehlin [03:43:38] Y' all are kicking butt. Y' all are totally kicking booty. And we're.

Lauren Matthias [03:43:42] That's when I do surpass you in subscribers, I will let you know. I promise. I'll be like John, Boom. But that's not happening anytime soon. So it's not true.

John Dehlin [03:43:54] Oh, well, in my mind, it's true. How's that? Really quickly, thanks to Sherry Williams for a last minute couple super Chats. And then Maria writes. Can you repeat the other channels, please? Yes. Hidden True Crime on YouTube. And there's also a podcast called Hidden True Crime. That's Lauren and Dr. John. And then Meagan's is. Has three names. Either Meagan Connor or third verse or midlife Revolution. Revolution. Right. Did I get all that right?

Meagan Connor [03:44:26] Yep, you did. I'm. I'm shocked that you remember them all. It's. It's kind of crazy.

John Dehlin [03:44:31] All right, well, y' all are the best. Thanks to all our viewers and listeners. Thanks to Maven and Julia that were able to jump on last minute on a Sunday. Maven for moderating Julia for doing time codes and show notes and shorts. Thanks to Gerardo. Again, thanks to Brooklyn that does our editing and some of our post production, along with Julia. Thanks to Margi and our respective partners for letting us. I don't know if everyone wants their partners to be named, but for letting us come in on a Sunday. Thanks, all our donors, Mormon stories that make all this possible. We couldn't do this without our monthly donors.

Gerardo Sumano [03:45:09] We.

John Dehlin [03:45:09] We do pay Meagan and Lauren and Mindy and Gerardo for appearing, and it's the super chats, but mostly it's just the monthly donations to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation that makes all this possible. So thanks to all the donors. If you want to become a. If you want to support this content. We lose donors every month. We can't do without our donors. So if you want to see this content continue, we need people to step up, up, replace the people who cancel and back out and become monthly donors. Just go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor, and that's how you keep this content going.

John Dehlin [03:45:46] You can also help us by liking this episode right now by subscribing to this channel, Mormon Stories podcast, and our respective channels, by commenting and by sharing. That's all super helpful as well. Thanks again to all our commenters. We really appreciate it. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast, Hidden True Crime and Midlife Revolution. Take care, everybody.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:13] Thanks, everyone.

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