Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] What happens when a Mormon who's a returned missionary who served her mission in Croatia goes back to visit her mission and falls in love with a convert to the church who's a man from Slovenia? What happens when they get married and then move to Utah and then within a couple years of moving to Utah, start learning things about the church? That's problematic, try to talk to people about it, and then are threatened with excommunication? Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 10, 2025. I'm here with my co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:37] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] And today we are going to be sharing an Eastern European, a Croatian Slovenian excommunication Mormon story. And joining us for all of that are Mitya. Hey, Mitya.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:00:53] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Thanks for joining us.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:00:55] Thank you for inviting us.

John Dehlin [00:00:57] I guess I'm assuming you're the one that's from Slovenia. Is that right in the story?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:01:00] Don't I look like this?

John Dehlin [00:01:03] And also we have with us Sarah. Hey, Sarah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:06] Hi, guys.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] I'm assuming you're the returned missionary who served in Croatia.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:01:10] I am.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Well, we are so excited. We've known of you all for a couple years. I believe that y' all told your story at some point with RFM and Bill Real. I did, but we wanted to have you here to do it Mormon story style. So welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:01:28] Thank you, John. Thank you, Margi. Yeah, it's a pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Anything you want to correct about the intro? Did we get it right?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:01:33] I mean, I feel like Hollywood was the best. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] And I don't know. I, you know, I know we've done at least a couple people from Ukraine on Mormon Stories Podcast. I don't know that we've ever done east, you know, anyone from the former Ukraine, Yugoslavia, and or Czechoslovakia. I'll have to go back and check, but, I mean, are you aware of any.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:01:57] No, I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] So in that sense covering that area, we always love covering new regions on Mormon Stories podcast. And Eastern Europe is kind of important. Very important. And especially in 2025, Eastern Europe is very important. So for all those reasons, we're excited that you're both joining us today.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:17] Yeah. Thank you again.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:02:18] Thanks.

Sara's Background and Early Mormon Life

John Dehlin [00:02:18] All right, well, let's just maybe, Sarah, if it's okay, since your Mormon story is a little bit longer than Mithya's, is that fair? What if we start with your brief Mormon story? We're not going to be focusing as much on maybe your childhood and adolescence, but let's talk about the important stuff. So where does Your Mormon story begin, Sarah. And what are the parts that are most critical to the story?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:02:48] I grew up in Texas. Yeah. Born and raised there till I was 15. So I had 15 years in Texas. Grew up, I was fifth out of six kids, mom and dad, and we were all very, very Mormon. And there were not many of us in our small town in Texas, so we were kind of the minority there.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] But we're near Amerlo, is that right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:03:10] It's in a little town called Canyon.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:03:12] It's like 15 minutes south of Amarillo. It's a little college town and I, I love that town. And what's the college that's there? Wtamu.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] It's like western Texas A and M.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:03:27] It's like a branch off of A and M. So, yeah, it's just a cute little college Texas town. It was great. And even though we were the minority as Mormons, we kind of stood out just because, yeah, we're Mormon and no one else is there. We had a lot of kids and my dad had a really nice business that a lot of people were either in, employed at, or at least knew of. And so I didn't feel like a total black sheep there, even though I was, in some ways, you know, I felt very much included in the community, but still very private about my Mormon life, I felt, because I knew how different it was compared to the surrounding community because there's a lot of heat on the Mormons down in the south, you know, So I felt that at a young age and that kind of built up some, you know, defensiveness of what I believed in. You know, it's a little bit nerve wracking to navigate that as a kid. But I grew up very active. We did all the things Mormon, you know, and then my parents split when I was 13, and I moved up to Utah two years later with my mom and siblings who had not yet moved out already. So then we. I did a ninth through college in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Where was your high school just for.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:04:50] I went to Lone Peak.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] Lone Peak?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:04:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] You live in an Alpine or.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:04:53] I lived in Alpine, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] That's. That's intense.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:04:56] It was very intense.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Okay, what, what, what years were you at Alpine?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:05:00] I don't even. I graduated 06, so four years before that. Was that 2002?

John Dehlin [00:05:04] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:05:05] It's about when we moved.

John Dehlin [00:05:06] Okay, cool. Okay. So that's, I mean, as far as, like, intense cities, Mormon cities to grow up in.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:05:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] So very orthodox.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:05:16] I'm sorry?

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Very orthodox upbringing in Alpine.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:05:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all of it. And, you know, I was happily Mormon, by the way. Like, I. I was all for it, you know, And I really did feel a close connection to the teachings and belief and. And everything. I. I feel like I had a really strong testimony, and I didn't ever think I was going to go on a mission. But when my brother went and we took him to the mtc and it was back in the day and we had the video and then we parted one. Like, family is out one door and them. It was so emotional that I thought, wow, if I'm not married when I'm 21, I'm going to go on a mission. And sure enough, I was 21 and not married.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] What did you do for. Did you go to college after?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:05:56] Yeah, I did. I did. I went kind of everywhere. I did UVSC at the time. Uvu, like, my senior year of high school. And then I went to Utah State up in Logan for a year.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] Go Aggies.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:06:08] Yes. And then I did massage therapy school in Salt Lake. And right when I graduated from there, I decided I wanted to go on a mission. So I told my bishop. He said, when was the last time you went to the temple? I said, I don't know. It's been a while. So I guess I wasn't that Mormon, but I felt like I was super Mormon. So I went to the temple for like, three months, and then I was like, I still want to go. So got our papers in. I put my papers in. In May, I got my calling. What is it? The call? Yeah. Thank you. In June. And then I left.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] July of what year?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:06:40] 08. Yeah, so it was really fast.

Sara's Mission to Croatia

John Dehlin [00:06:43] And you were called to which mission?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:06:46] Slovenia. Croatia, I think was the name of it at the time.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] Did you know anything about Eastern Europe when you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:06:51] No, I didn't even know where Croatia was. So the first thing I had to do was look up Croatia. So I knew that I was going to specifically Croatia out of Slovenia, Croatia. And there were other countries in that mission, but I was going to be speaking Croatian language, so I knew I was going Croatian side.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] Is it called Croatian, the language?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:07:10] Yeah. And Slovene for Slovenia. And so we have Bosnia, Serbia. Bosnia was not yet open to missionaries at the time. Serbia was. But only elders could go. And so now it's opened up a lot more, and it's more sisters and elders everywhere. But it was a very small mission, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] And what was. What was your mission like? How'd you like serving?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:07:30] I loved it. I loved everything, honestly. I am just. I was a Mormon girl. I loved it. I loved it. So much. I think some people were surprised I was going on a mission. I wasn't ever like a wild girl, but I had fun, you know, and, you know, I don't know, I just was a fun, happy girl. But I don't think we saw a mission coming necessarily. But when it did, I was. I was totally for it. And I was all in, like, super, super in. So I went. I was totally committed, heart and soul, and. And I was so in that I was like, super hard. I think this is common among sisters that we're just so hard on ourselves, you know, like, perfection was never enough, you know, I didn't talk to enough people. I didn't, you know, But I. Yeah, I went to Croatia, you know, six months in the capital and then 10 months on the seaside. So I just had the best time.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Is it a beautiful country to visit?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:08:27] It's beautiful, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] Is it, like, to vacation? Would you go to Croatia just for vacation?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:08:31] Oh, you should definitely go to Croatia for vacation. Really more than a mission. But luckily I was sent to the seaside town where Kashmir Triusic was born and raised, which he was. He played for byu. He's the one that brought the church over to Yugoslavia. Oh, big guy. If anyone knows the history there. But his town, like, worships him, so there's like statues of him all over. So he was like our main go to with like, hey, you know Kresso,

John Dehlin [00:08:57] because he's a basketball player there.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:08:59] He's like the Michael Jordan of Yugoslavia.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] What's his last name? Okay, okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:05] He won the world championships with Yugoslavia. He was the most, like, I mean, talented player on the Yugoslavian team. Still young and then.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:09:14] But he went to BYU and he was really good friends with Hugh Nibley. He came to byu, not as a member, but then he was converted. It's a huge story.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:22] I'm surprised.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:09:22] It's the whole mission story.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:24] Not too many people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've heard there's a book like.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:09:27] And anyway, so there's like statues of him all over the town, like murals

John Dehlin [00:09:32] and so he said he did play NBA.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:34] No, he turned down NBA to bring

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:09:37] back the church to Yugoslavia because he was such a political power.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:39] He converted and turned out the NBA. Like, everyone wanted him.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] How did he become a national celebrity if he didn't play in the NBA? Was it just his college?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:47] Because in the. In the national basketball. So Yugoslavia won the world championships over the years.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Oh, you beat the U.S. what year do you know about what year was that?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:55] Uruguay. I think it was Uruguay, like 73. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] In the early 70s.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:09:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Okay. Okay. Yeah, that'd be a big.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:10:01] He's a big figure down in Balkans. And, you know, everyone knows him, and. But they're basically saying all the. All the people like, that you meet in the streets, you know? Oh, he wasn't into Mormonism.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:10:12] No, I know.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:10:12] So that's a joke.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:10:14] All the time on the street, like, hey, you know, Chris shows like, oh, yeah, he was my best friend because he. He had passed away already. And people were like, oh, yeah, he was my best buddy. It's a small town, Zelda. And I'm like, well, he actually was part of this church, and he brought it back. That's why he turned down Nimbah. La la, la, la. And they're like, no, that was his one mistake. Otherwise, he's a really great guy. And so they just would never give in to it.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] You try to use him all the time.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:10:39] His face is everywhere. Down there. There's a huge statue of him. You know, like, everything. It's like his town and his mom was still alive at the time.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] How do you spell his last name?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:10:47] Spellsic.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:10:48] C, O, S, I, C. But there's like. The C's are like, ch.

John Dehlin [00:10:52] Okay, where's Jokic from?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:10:54] Jokic is from Serbia.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:10:56] Yes.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:10:56] It's also the mission.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:10:57] Yes. Doncic is from Slovenia. Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:11:00] Yeah, Doncic. We love Doncic.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] I love these guys.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:11:03] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:11:03] Who doesn't, right? No.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Where was Tony Kukoc from?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:11:06] Gratia.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:11:07] Here we go. Yeah, here we go. Here we go.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:11:12] Andraj Petrovich.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:11:15] He opened up the NBA for the Europeans.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] Well, there's a lot of great players from.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:11:19] They're all super tall. Yeah. I'm five foot one. So me around all those girls down there, I was like, I didn't belong. You know, I'm like, really white, and they're, like, really tan and gorgeous and tall. And I'm like, they all thought I was a nun because her skirts were down to her ankles. They're like, are you a nun? I'm like, not really, but how hard

John Dehlin [00:11:39] is it to baptize people in Croatia?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:11:43] You know, it's not high numbers, but I think we had three. I personally was involved with three.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Now it's former Soviet Union. Was it mostly atheist, or is it not former Soviet Union? No, never. It was never in the Soviet Union.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:11:56] Never. Because Tito. Run.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:11:58] Here we go.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:12:06] No. So, like, the Eastern Bloc was Stalin. Stalin wanted to come all the way

John Dehlin [00:12:10] over in World War II.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:12:12] World War II and post.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:12:14] But Tito was the marshal in Yugoslavia right after the Second World War. So he created his own little Stalin grad, let's say. Right. Like he didn't want to hand over Yugoslavia to Tito.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:12:30] So as me growing up, like it was a mild version of socialism. It's not what's been like, it's not

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:12:38] what you see in media.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:12:39] Yeah. It's not the way Americans portray socialism because I grew up very happily in socialism.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:12:48] We didn't have the hard communism version of ussr.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] What kept Stalin from taking over Yugoslavia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:12:56] That's a good point. Like, I don't know Tito, I guess, like he had enough. He knew how to navigate like that period, you know, so. But he created his own little ussr, you know, in the middle, like just looking a little bit to the west, you know.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:13:11] Just kind of. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Okay. And. And so the countries now that used to be part of Yugoslavia, I've heard

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:13:19] Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Okay. All that was, all that was Yugoslavia. Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:13:31] Macedonia is not on the mission though.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:13:33] Yeah, it goes to the Greek mission,

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:13:35] but like, so there's South Asia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:13:36] Oh, sorry, you were asking about the mission.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] No, no, I was asking about the country.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:13:38] Yugoslavia. Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:13:40] So Slovenia got the first independence and then the brutal war started like between Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina, Serbia. Right. You know, all of that is in

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:13:50] the 90s, so it's still quite recent now.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:13:52] Yeah, so we only had a 10 day war in Slovenia because we're not like the target, but. And we also like kind of transition it, like handle it smoothly like. And yeah, so we didn't feel the impact, but yeah, right side of us we experienced all of that and then all the migration, immigrants and everything, like, you know, refugees. And it's still there. The elders, many people came up, stayed like here. Right too.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:14:19] Yeah, the elders regarding like language. Because even though Croatian, Bosnia and Serbian are all very similar, there's very distinct differences. And sometimes the elders would, you know, get in some trouble if they sounded too Serbian on the border or if they sounded too positive. You know, sisters we were kind of at the time, now they're mixed more, but we were pretty much like isolated and this is your country and you stay here, you're not going to switch over ever. So we kind of, you know, we kind of more had. We never had like physical aggression towards us ever. It was usually more like to a degree, sexual harassment type stuff from like the men down there, the sailors.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:14:58] Comments, right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:14:59] Yeah, just comments. But nothing ever serious happened, but. But yeah, I was able to be on the the coast. And it was. It was just gorgeous. So, yeah, Kresho was a big part of our proselyting and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] What was the default religion there?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:15:13] Catholic. That's what we were talking about earlier. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] And devout Catholic.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:15:16] So Roman Catholic for Slovenia, Croatia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:15:18] Yes.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:15:19] And then Serbian is Orthodox and Montenegro. And then Bosnian is Muslim Orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Meaning like Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:15:27] Yes, yes. So you have three, like, inside Yugoslavia, you had six nations, three different religions. Like, you know, all mixed up are Bosnians Muslim. And that's the center of Yugoslavia. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:15:43] Like, so the kindest people I'd ever meet on the street, I knew immediately that they were from Bosnia because they were so kind.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Oh, wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:15:49] It's very interesting. You know, you had the Turks coming up from the south, like, throughout history, you know, so that you have Turkish influence and Serbs have more of that. Right. Also language wise. Right. And we are the. More. We are the most northern republic of Yugoslavia former. And we were exposed more to the German occupation. Right. So it's like, always mixing. It's pretty much a miracle how Slovenia survived with 2 million people, their own language tradition, seeing all the wars happening, people being moved, this. That. You know what I mean? Like, it's crazy. Yeah. It's a gem.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:24] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:16:24] I loved. I loved Croatia. I shouldn't say that the Bosnians were the nicest. Croatians were very nice, too. And Slovenes too. I actually fell in love with a Slovene. Well, I did fall in love with Slovene, but I also fell in love with Croatians as a whole because they reminded me a lot of Texans. I feel like they're the Texans of Europe. They love their flag, they love their language, they love their nation. They're just very, like, patriotic people. They're bold, they're loud and proud. You know what I mean? Like, I just felt like it was a little bit like Texas in that degree, but I think that anyway, so

John Dehlin [00:16:57] it comes into play later during Mithya's story, because there's. There's probably cultural differences in terms of how a Utahn would normally be and how any. A Slovenian or an Eastern European might be in terms of authority, in terms of saying what's on your mind. Oh, yeah. Instead of being direct.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:17:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] Is that. Is that fair to say?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:17:21] 100. Why this all happened? I believe is because there's just. Honestly, everything that happened was a cultural, like, collision. Like, nothing actually. Like, we didn't. You know, we'll get into this. But, like, he didn't do anything necessarily wrong. You know, it was just culturally unacceptable what he did.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:40] Got It.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:17:41] And that was it. That's like it in a nutshell.

Impressions of Eastern Europeans vs. Utah Members

John Dehlin [00:17:43] So to summarize, you found the Eastern Europeans that you interacted with to be different from the average Utahn. In what way? Just to summarize,

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:17:53] I mean, I would just say, like, there's Americans and then there's the rest of the world.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:17:59] Indeed. You know, we sugarcoat everything.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] You know, in the US we sugarcoat

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:18:04] shapes in the US we sugarcoat in

John Dehlin [00:18:05] the rest of the world.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:18:06] Or in the rest of the world. You know, if you've gained weight, we're going to tell you. If you're looking a little old, we're gonna tell you if, you know.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] You know, if you've hurt me or if you've lied to me.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:18:15] Yeah, yeah. They just say how it is, you know, I mean, like, when I was. I mean. Well, yeah, yeah. They're just. They're just very straightforward, you know, and honest. And it can be offensive to us softy Americans, you know, or to.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Or to authority in the church.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:18:30] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] That expects obedience and deference and not being questioned. Is that fair? I don't wanna project that.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:18:36] Yeah. And I also don't wanna be, like, speaking for nations around the world either. And so I just hope that if listening from my beautiful Slovenia, Croatia, know that I actually want to be more like that. A bit more honest. Not. I mean, not that I'm a dishonest person, but, you know, just have the strength to just say what I'm actually thinking and say in a straight way. But also nice. You know what I mean? Like, without. You know, you don't have to be aggressive, you know, to say kind but direct. Yes. So there's an art to it, I guess.

Mission Reflections and Convert Experiences

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Okay, so three converts in your year and a half in Croatia.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:19:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] And you left the mission. How was your testimony?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:19:17] Oh, like, amazing. Like, I love. Honestly, I loved it. I did not want to go home. I mean, I did, but, you know, I didn't. And I. I was like. I couldn't listen to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir when I got home without, like, falling on the ground, like, crying. I just. I mean, years. Two years after my mission. So I got home in February of 2010. Like, I was. I would still cry at night, like. Like if I was saying a prayer. Like, I never stopped aching. I know we all say, I love the mission. I love the people. I love the. You know, all this stuff. And I feel like it's so cliche, but, like, I really. It became a part of me. Like, I. I love it Like, I. I still do. I mean, obviously. And we're moving back there in a month, you know, so, like, I can't get it out of my system. I genuinely do love that part of the world, and I am forever grateful that I did go on a mission. I think. I think it's a very unhealthy, has potential to be a very harmful thing. And I think there's a lot about it that's very traumatizing. And I don't agree with a lot of the ways missions are, but I did choose to go, and I feel like I chose willingly to do all the things that I was willing to sign up for that strict rule. Like, I do. I thought I was doing well in that world, even though it was kind of backfiring on me because it was just too. I was going into it too black and white. Maybe that's what I would say. I feel like I was a happy member my whole life. Very carefree, but still like a good, good girl, you know, I had my life, you know, Like, I wasn't perfect, you know, and. But I genuinely felt a deep love and gratitude. I. I was so grateful for the church. When I went through the temple, that's when I think there was a switch for me and my ability to be the carefree, happy girl I was. I became very letter of the law instead of spirit of the law. And I think that stole. Like, I feel like I lost my essence, you know, Like, I feel like in general, you know, I'm a happy. You know, people say bubbly person, kind of like, I hate that cliche, like, expression, but it's true. I just am a happy person. I feel like my, you know, my Sarah had a, you know, this vibe I had. It just. It kind of got like, okay, now you're in the big league and you don't have any room to have fun anymore, you know, like when you change the way you dress and, you know, like, I was a cheerleader growing up, so I was always wearing, you know, just short whatever and like a hoodie. Like, I was not some, you know. Yeah, like, promiscuous girl. But I was just, you know, happy. And it wasn't a big deal if I was wearing short shorts, you know, and then to be a young adult, and then all sudden you have to wear shorts on your knees. And I'm five foot, so it's like, that's gonna cut a girl down to four or five, you know, so it's like way to boost your confidence, you know, and. But I thought Going into the mission, like, oh, I can play dress up for two, like a year and a half, like that's no big deal. And then you realize you come back and you don't get to go back to your little self yourself basically. Right. And I know there's a sense of like growing up, but I took it so seriously that I just could not be lighthearted anymore. I got really serious, I got really stressed. Like I would. I think that's when a lot of anxiety came into my life and it was very self destructive. And so as much as I love the mission, I. That whole being endowed thing, that pressure of being basically perfect, and if not, then you have everything to lose. That pressure was so big for me.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] And nowadays the church is calling it the Covenant path. But it's basically you make all these covenants to give your life frankly to the church with very serious consequences if you fall off the path.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:23:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] And it, it just turns everything really serious.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:23:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] It was really intense and a huge commitment.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:23:20] Yeah, it was, I mean, I mean to a degree. I felt like when I, you know, I got. So when you go through the temple, you receive garments. Right. And I thought that in a way I was, was kind of excited because I thought, wow, I arrived, you know, like it was like a safe place. Did you see your parents and everything? And it's like, okay, this is home. Right. I felt that. And I didn't allow myself to process how much it was stripping my identity away from me. And it seems so superficial, like what are clothes? But it really. When someone's controlling what you put on every day. Like I didn't comprehend how big of a deal that was until honestly the last few years.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:52] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:23:52] And yeah. But so yeah, I don't know what to say. Just the mission was awesome. I loved it. Not having comprehending how destructive it was to my like self respect and identity and everything. And I came home like on cloud nine, just heartbroken that I was leaving that world. We don't need to get into all this. But yeah, you get home, you start dating, life happens, you know.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] Back to school, did you?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:24:20] Yes, I went back, I came back. I went to University of Utah and then I finished. So I was kind of jumping all over the place. I didn't really want to do massage therapy anymore, so I went back to

Margi Dehlin [00:24:29] college and we would say that's exploring.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:24:32] Oh yeah, I was, oh, I was a free little bird, you know, because I just was always taught like you don't actually need an education, you just need to get married and so until you get married, just kind of like do your thing. So I, you know, I don't know how much we want to get into.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] You got a degree at the U?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:24:47] I got a degree at the U.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] Okay. What took you back? Oh, go. Keep going.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:24:51] Yeah. So, I mean, I was in a relationship at that time, and that was all the highs and lows of a Mormon relationship. Bishops, everything. You know, all the stress up and down and all the good and bad signs of whatnot. In the end, it didn't work out for us to be together. I was completely devastated. And so when I.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] Were y' all engaged?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:25:13] No, but we were together for a couple years.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] Dated someone for a couple years.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:25:17] Yeah. And we had known each other previously, like in high school. So it's like I knew for a long time. So it was like, I felt like it was a very. I thought I was going to marry this guy. And it didn't work out, obviously, for a number of reasons. And so when I graduated, I graduated single and I was just completely heartbroken. So I took my tax return and went to Europe for six weeks by myself just to be a free bird. And that's when I met Mitya.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] So you went back to Croatia?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:25:46] I went back to Europe to intentionally to visit my mission for a few weeks. And then a friend there from the branch in the main capital, she was like, hey, if you're going to be here in July, like, come with us on the temple trip up to Frankfurt. We get a big bus, like all five countries of the mission get on a double Docker bus and we go up to the temple in Frankfurt. We're there for a few days because I don't know if you all know, in Europe, temple experiences are actually, if you're Mormon, pretty cool because you're like staying on hostels on temple grounds and you have like tunnels to the temple and you meet people from all over Europe. Like you have a communal kitchen that you all cook together, you share babysitting kids. And so couples, it's a. It's like a camp. It's really cool. And so singles activity. It's for. I mean, most of them are single, but there's also families. And then like the youth were there too.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:26:32] It's a whole mission on one or two buses.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:26:36] But to understand that a whole mission as far as members can fit on a double decker bus from five countries is showing how small it is over there.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:26:45] Preparing for months, save money to, like plan, you know, the time off.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:26:51] And so, yeah, my friend was like, get on that. And I'm like, okay, we'll have to arrange it, because I. We in Texas, we had a foreign exchange student with us for a year, and he's from Iceland. So I was going to go see him and his family over there. So I was just kind of in Europe mission. Okay, I'll hop on the bus to the temple. Okay. I'll go from the temple from Germany up to Iceland, and then I'll go home. And. And so that was my way. That's how I got back over there.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:14] Got it.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] So are you saying you met Mithi on that temple trip?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:27:16] Yeah, he was on the bus. So I started in Croatia. The bus starts in the south and picks up people on the way. So I took a smaller bus to the capital to get to the church to get on the bus. The church bus. Right. And then since I'd been traveling since, like, midnight the night before, I was sleeping until we got to Slovenia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:27:33] That's the last stop before we hit Austria and go up to Frankfurt temple, Germany.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:27:38] And I was so excited to get to the. Yeah. From Slovenia. I'd already come from.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:43] Can we have a moment for that? Huh? 12 hour.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:27:46] Oh, yeah. But it's a different world when you're, like, a single girl and you don't have. Like, now I have. We have children, so I can't imagine doing that.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:53] And you. You were with friends?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:27:55] No, I was just by myself. Oh, you were by myself. I was completely by myself on this trip. I was with friends because I was in the mission. Like, I knew members there, Right. So I was meeting up with people there, but I came from America completely by myself. And so I was in my mid-20s at this point.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] So what year is this, the temple trip?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:28:13] 2013. July, August is when I went over there.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:28:17] So.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:28:18] So my brother just returned from the mission. Okay. I don't know.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:28:22] We're kind of jumping around. My point is, is. Yeah, I wake up in Slovenia. I was so excited to get to the church because that was where I'd first flown into my mission. At the time, the mission president was there. So that was my first picture of that chapel. It's like one of the first chapels in. Yeah, it was the first chapel in that mission. There's only two.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:28:38] It was the first one, I think.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:28:40] No, well, whatever it was, because the chapel.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:28:42] We have one chapel in Slovenia, and

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:28:44] the chapel in Zagreb was being built when I was on my mission.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:28:47] So one building, saying chapel. We have one building and two other little apartments. Yeah, that.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:28:56] Anyways, so we go, you know, Go to the. I was so excited to see the church. It was like memory lane for me. You know, I hadn't seen it in a few years. And when I got back on the bus, I fell asleep again. And when I wake up in Austria somewhere, I look back and Mr. Meteor is back there. And I was like this. So I shouldn't say this online, but I was just. I couldn't believe that. Well, no, I just, like, couldn't believe that he was, like, on the bus. I really. It doesn't matter. He was really cute. He was really cute.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:28] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:29:29] I was like, he can't be a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:29:33] That's what she thought.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:29:35] You know, there's just. I mean, it's not a secret to anyone, especially those over there. It's a very small church, and you usually. There's a lot of, you know, beautiful, older single ladies, you know, and.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Or there's, like, not a lot of cute young men.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:29:51] There's not very many. I mean, there are the few There are there. You're also really cute. But there's just not, like, young, single men, like, if they're young and, like,

John Dehlin [00:30:05] not a lot of young, single, cute men in the church. In Eastern Europe, there's not.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:30:10] There's a few, you know, like, couples. Couples with young kids. It's like, they're either. There's only a few families. Right. And then the rest are usually just single older people, elderly people.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] So you saw, And I was just

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:30:26] like, I don't remember teaching anyone.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] Like, that's cute. Yeah. I feel. So I say that out loud.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:33] They were like, where did he come from?

John Dehlin [00:30:35] We don't choose our.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:30:36] But there are very. Yeah. And so. Oh, my gosh. I feel so embarrassed.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] Don't worry about it.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:30:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] You're not saying anything wrong.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:43] That's right. Breathe through it.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] This was what you. Nobody can control who's cute to you. So we're just talking about who's cute to you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:30:49] Yeah, no, he was. He was really cute.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:50] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:30:51] So there was a girl that I met up on the trip. She was American, too. And everyone thought that we were. Everyone thought we were sisters and they all called me Michelle on her side. We were both same height, same personality, everything. And.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:31:03] My point is, so we did have her. And so we kind of were having fun meeting everyone. Because it was a camp. You meet so many people. Yeah. And so we got, you know, have, like, you know, firesides at the temple, at the chapel. Like, the temple president's there, so I was hoping he would sit next to me. You know, I'm like this cute hero guy and my friend Michelle was like, would you ever date that media guy? And I was like, oh yeah. And it's just so ironic, but I thought it'd be like, you know, oh, we'll never see him again, you know, it was like, this is just a fun Euro trip, you know. It was so not in my head.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:31:36] It's a cute little notice. Mitya was engaged at that time to a non member sitting on that bus trying to go to Frankfurt temple for a week to find the answer what to do with that relationship.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:48] How about that?

John Dehlin [00:31:48] Well, that's where we're going next.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:31:50] But let me not act engaged.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:52] Let me ask a quick question before we go there. I'm curious. You had said earlier that you experienced the temple and then as like a stripping off of self, a seriousness, right? That you felt like part of your light hearted kind of self was stripped away. Did that stay? I'm just curious if that was something that you felt kind of through your mission but then you came home and it felt a bit better or. Or was that something that like was true actually for beyond your mission?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:32:31] Like I think it was true beyond the mission, but I do think that that one Euro trip was like a beacon in the darkness for me of that whole decade. Because coming back from the mission I started dating a guy and to be honest, like quickly things like happened where we couldn't go to the temple anymore, you know, and so I had a whole, you know, like, you feel horrible, you're so lost. It's like, how could I just go from like the biggest high to like I'm like the worst person in the world? Which was so ridiculous because it was like, why am I feeling guilty for having a healthy relationship, you know what I mean? But I couldn't understand that at the time. Right, got it. And so once that ended, it was a very volatile two years. I kind of. And having graduated, I just kind of felt like a free bird for the first time in a while and it was back to like a place that was so safe for me and I don't know. And I feel like sometimes when I was a single person on my own, without anyone next to me, I could kind of revert back to like my happy self. But if I was back in a relationship, it's like you have to be this kind of person to be in a relationship. If you want to get a good guy, you have to be this kind of conserved good girl, you know, and not so like free spirited and fun. You know, but like me and this Michelle girl, she like brought that out of me. She kind of was like my soul sister in that way. So. So like Bruno Mars was playing and we were like dancing in the aisle. Like, you know, it was just. It brought back life to me, you know, And a lot of people I had also after this Euro trip, I already had a one way ticket to Hawaii lined up for me to move to Hawaii to have another little adventure. And people were like, why do you keep leaving? You're. If you don't stay in Utah, you're not going to find anyone, you know. And then I remember loving. So I was kind of having some self doubt. Like, well, I just, you know, I'm in my mid-20s now. Like, I've done enough dating here in Utah. It's not an enjoyable experience. But I remember someone saying, like, you'll find the one you love when you're doing what you love. And that gave me hope that like, as long as I'm living my life the way I want to, I'll find someone that aligns with me. And so I loved that I did meet Mitia when I was doing what I loved, which was traveling.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:38] Yeah. And I love that you also. It feels a little bit rarer. You graduate and you're in this space of like, oh, I didn't get married. Oop. I'm like, right? And then you decide to take this trip that you're in this place where you're. I don't know, it feels like something in yourself recognized to kind of be a disruptor in your own life and do something different. Cause I do feel like so much of the church formula, it can feel like a grind. And we've done like plenty of interviews with people that they just keep grinding, they keep doing the thing and just hoping for a different result. Because it's clearly me. Cause it can't be the. I must be doing something wrong. So they just keep doing the. So that moment where you are like, I think I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna go back. I think I'm gonna have this trip for myself.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:35:31] And I do know a lot of my friends were like, wow, either they were all married or getting married again, you know, or having babies or just getting their career going. And I felt like, I'm not getting married. I'm obviously not having babies and I don't even have a care. Like I graduated just to get a degree. I wasn't thinking again because of my upbringing. I never was really encouraged to like really set A goal for myself, career wise. And I. I do have regrets on that now, but because my degree really just does a great job for stay at home moms, you know, like, anything that my degree would do for me, basically, I could do without a degree. You know, it's family studies and, like, child development. So it's like, you can open a preschool, but, like, you can do that without a degree, too. So it hasn't benefited me that much in that way. It has in other ways. But my point is, I. I don't know. I just. Yeah, I. I don't. I'm getting off subject now, I believe. But thank you for that. Thank you for what you said. And I did feel, I think when I was so devastated from the breakup, that it was like, wait, I don't have to play by that formula that, like, someone's going to take care of me. Like, I actually get to choose. And so there was a window of, like, illumination for me there, and I did. That's when got so excited about Hawaii. And I was like, I'm just gonna go do it. I'm gonna go jump for it. And I. I now love that I didn't get married when I was in my early 20s. I loved that I actually had almost a decade to explore and travel the world and.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:54] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:36:54] And just, you know, I just had the best time. I was alone, but I had a really beautiful time, and I realized the significance of that now more than I did at the time.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:05] 100%. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:37:07] Beautiful. Okay, well, what if we thank you for sharing your story up to that point? What if we switch over to Mithya?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:15] Is that all right?

Mitja's Background and Path to Joining the Church

John Dehlin [00:37:16] All right, Mitja, how does a young, you know, how does a young Slovenian man end up joining the Mormon Church? Let's go back into your background to talk about what led you, what your upbringing was like, and how you got interested in the church.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:37:35] I'll try to keep it short. Like, I grew up with a single mom for six years. My dad was never around, my biological dad, so I was already early growing up, like, missing that father figure. Very, like a very sensitive, very insecure. Right. Kid, just holding on and, like, having mom and dad in mom, right. Doing both jobs, right? Parenting. Luckily, she kicked me into a, like, beginner's class in my elementary school where it was judo, like, the martial art. It's not very popular here. Jiu jitsu, you hear more about jiu jitsu, but, like, and that was something I didn't want. Didn't want to do. Like, I was crying in the first lesson or whatever, like, standing there in the corner. I remember that. But that paved the actual path, like, for growing up being more bold, getting self confidence, being more exposed to, like, overcoming challenges. You know what the oriental martial arts bring, Right? Like discipline, respect. Right. So I kind of found, I would say, like, my role models in that martial art environment. Making up for the missing part that I didn't have in a father. Right. But then my mom marries and has another child. She's my brother, and I get adopted. I wanted a dad. I was, like, very excited, like, at the age of 6, 7. So I wanted him. So the last name that comes, the Lochner, it comes from him. So I have a stepdad, and suddenly I have a half brother, which I treat like, you know, it's golden, right. I'm very, like, I'm the big brother. And we start growing as a family, right. I clinch to all of this. Right. Elementary school finishes. I stay in sports. So my stepdad was very much into sports. Very much a support. And I would say over support, trying to kind of push the kids I had. And. And pretty much, like, in a forceful way too, you know, not having his dreams met in the past. Overly using kids as a project. Yes. And turn on even more into my. Into my brother's life because I started noticing the difference. I'm only, you know, stepson. Stepson.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:40:24] And.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:40:25] And I was. I had this strong connection to my mom, which never let go, like, until today, you know, it's like me and mom are.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:32] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:40:33] Like this.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:40:34] I've been a language thing up until the day. It means still today.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:37] Oh. So.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:40:37] Yeah. Yeah. Like, as if it indented.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:40:41] We're still good.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:40:43] Yeah. That's why you're here. Sorry. I love it. So, yeah, like, growing up sport, doing judo, basketball. I had to decide because I was very good at basketball and judo. I started, like, winning, like, minor, you know, tournaments in judo and just stayed connected to sports. I love sports.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:41:08] Like, sports was his religion, basically.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:41:10] Right. Like, and my brother follows, like his big brother. Right. He becomes good, too. We stay in judo. I. I kind of stopped playing basketball at the end of elementary.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:41:22] Elementary is almost high school, by the way. In Europe.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:41:25] Yes. It's nine. Nine grades, Right. Yeah. Together. Then you. Yeah. Picked a high school. Wanted to have, like a degree out of high school. Meaning degree, vocation. Like. Yeah. But I picked three languages because most of the time, growing up, every summer holidays, my mom sent me to her sister who lived in Switzerland. That's how I got in contact with the Schwitzerduch. Like with the Swiss. Deutsch. German, right. That Germans don't understand. Whatever. Spend, like, had the best life growing up, like with my cousins there, you know.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:42:09] But not religious.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:42:11] Oh yeah, there's no religion. Like there's just, you know, the neighborhood that we live in that we're stationed. The first church is like, what, like a 10 minute walk away. Rome Catholic, predominant religion in Slovenia. So it's like, you know, I grow up seeing people going to masses, you know, mainly like older ladies, covered their head, you know, like just, you'd say more of a like rural picture, right? Doing their thing. But I never really understood, I never was pulled into any religious content. Meaning I want to know more, right? Who is Christ, God, Christ, Trinity. Like, no, nothing. It was sports, right? So that pulled me through and kind of built me up to a point that I wanted to do sports even more, With more dedication. Moved, moved to the university, started university in Ljubljana, in the capital. And then it's like the studying years. It's like the best part of your life. You're finally free. You leave your, you know. Although, like my hometown is just like a 50 hour drive away from the capital, but you stay there. You start like seeing the world differently, engaging, you know, like it's first loves happening, first relationships.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:45] And how old are you?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:43:47] That's 19. 20.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:48] 19.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:43:49] Yeah, but with a full goal. I want to be like, I want to, you know, take part in the Olympics or world championships in judo, like, because I'm already a national junior champion or, you know, so, yeah, it's like a serious level. It's sports first, right? And my brother is following me, you know. But then I would say once my brother turned like 18, so his path was a little different. And that's the connection to my religious path, right? Because he brought the gospel, the religion home. He kind of, as a, like going through elementary, his schoolmates were trying to. I mean, we're attending church as a tradition and he kind of caught up to that. We didn't practice any religion. We didn't go to church. It's Christmas, it's Easter, it's, you know, just the top, top holiday, right? Like Christian holidays. And that's basically it, right? Like, I don't have norms, like religious norms or whatever, but my brother Borut, he kind of wanted to know more, so he went. He didn't start very early, but he caught up to his classmates, which were doing the kind of a version, like the Catholic version of seminary. After school was maybe twice a week. I don't remember correct. Like just, you know, and he started being really interested in. So he starts in the very Catholic church in the chapel in the building, just 10 minute walk away from our home. And he goes by himself Sundays. Not mom, not his dad, of my stepdad, not me. He starts going. But he like, he's like 14 probably.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] So he got super interested in the Catholic Church.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:45:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:45:43] You know how in Europe or maybe you don't know, like they put like crosses, you know you can see crosses everywhere. Right. But then it's like intersections, like the roads and there's a cross or a little like tiny chapel. How would you call them, Sarah?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:45:58] They're like little small buildings with like a statue inside of Mary.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:02] Like they're called little Mary holding Jesus, you know, baby Jesus. And my brother is always like seeing those and like, what is this? Like where is this coming from? Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] Who's in religion?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:13] He's more curious.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:14] He's very curious. Very early on and so when did

John Dehlin [00:46:21] you start getting interested in religion?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:24] Sorry, go again.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] When did you start getting interested in religion?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:26] So that's the point. He brings it home. It's still the Rome Catholic tradition. Right. But he, in, I don't know, in a year or two, he finds missionaries in our hometown.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Mormon missionaries?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] And you're how old at this point?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:44] So we're six years apart. Must be like I'm, I'm around, I don't know, 24 maybe. Okay, right.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] Still in college?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:51] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:46:53] Staying in the capital. Yeah. Doing university sports, you know, that's all I'm doing. That's all I do, basically.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] And your younger brother starts talking to Mormon missionaries.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:47:00] Yes, because before that he starts asking questions to the, to the Rome, to the Catholic priest. Right. And he doesn't get the, and he doesn't get the answers. Oh, so he's this bright young boy, Right. Like trying to learn, but then he's like, so he's over curious. So he goes there and the only answer he gets is like, you don't have to ask these questions. It is like. It is. That's a, you know, basically, in a way. So he, of course, that's like a, it's the best bait for the Mormon missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:47:42] We have the answers once they meet. Like he's looking for more, you know, they have more. Walking down downtown, you know, this small little town we grew up in, you know, like, boom. He bumps into. Miss the first discussion. Of course I want to know more. Oh, we have the answers.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:47:58] That's how he starts his lesson. Sorry, Sarah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:48:00] No, I'm just. And then he's bringing it home to you, telling you, like, how he's feeling.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:48:04] Yeah. And then he has this, like, after doing this lesson. So he's doing that on his own. You know, he's like, 19, maybe 18 now. I'm like, 25, 26.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:48:15] His baptism. How are you feeling?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:48:18] Yeah, very reserved.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:48:20] So.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:48:21] But before the baptism, he came home one day. That's a crucial thing to mention. And I opened the door. I mean, I was home. I opened the door, and he's standing there breathing heavily, like something happened to him. Car accident, whatever. I didn't know. I said, what happened? SATA had the most spiritual experience, like, sitting in the car, giving a prayer, and, like it says in the scripture, like, my bosom wanted to explode. And I'm like, wow. And I can never forget that. You know, it's so remarkable to witness, like, the way he portrayed that. It kind of touched me. In the Mormon world, we'll say, like, the spirit did, you know, but it couldn't be unnoticed. Like, you know, he's my younger brother. Like, I know he's not lying. He has a real, like, experience. So that played a huge part. Then he gets baptized. I mean, his baptism. Whenever I think of the picture, the only picture we have, he got baptized in a river. They allowed him to. So there's two white missionaries, you know, like, preparing everything. There's a tent on the riverbend, you know, where they can change. Have you ever witnessed anything like that, John? Like, in your. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're going to the waters, and they're in the river, like, dressed like white ties, and I'm like, just, you know, my arms crossed and like, wow, what the heck is this? Right. Although I knew that there's something serious about this because my brother wouldn't, like, why would he be doing this? But I couldn't understand anything. So my first lessons happened after that. A little bit after that. It took me four years. Oh, four years of lessons? Yes and no. In and out. Different sets of missionaries coming. So I got baptized. Four years after.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] You were how old?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:50:19] I was 31.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] When you got baptized?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:50:21] Yes.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:50:22] I thought you were 30.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:50:23] 30.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:50:23] I thought that was 30.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] Around 30. Around 30. What did you do for a profession between college and your baptism?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:50:32] Basically, so I taught Judah. So once I start. I stopped competing around, like, 2006, 7. And I started being really driven into, like, working with kids. And that pulled me in, and I stayed, like. And I did that for 15 years before we moved to the States, like still.

Mitja's Life Before and After Baptism

John Dehlin [00:50:51] And before meeting Sarah, did you have like, were you married before? Did you have like serious girlfriends?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:50:57] No, I mentioned I was engaged to a non member.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:51:00] Being on the bus, meeting Sarah, trying to figure out the relationship.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] So you were engaged when you met Sarah?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:51:07] Yes, yes. But it didn't work out and I came home. Sarah flew to Hawaii for a year.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] When you met Sarah, how long had you been a member?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:51:22] She wasn't 13. So what is that?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:51:24] So what is it, five years? No, four. Four years, yeah, four years.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] What were your four years in the church like? Did you love it? Were you active?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:51:31] Of course. So once I joined. Once that four year period is, you know, the lessons in and out.

John Dehlin [00:51:39] Was there a spiritual experience that caused you to decide to get baptized or not?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:51:44] Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] Do you want to talk about that?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:51:46] Yeah, absolutely. Personally, I felt like I'm at a point in my life where I want to pull away from the world. So following my brother's path for those four years that I still didn't get baptized to, but like seeing him being a happy person, you know, like, but being, being weird also, like joining this, you know, nice American people. Every Sunday he's going somewhere, getting lessons, he's dressed up, you know, But I saw a change in him and also like parallel to that, like I needed a change in my life. It's not like I was jumping from relationship to relationship with, with girls. Whatever I had was serious and was like taken serious and like full on. And this is going to be my wife. I want to be with this person. Right. But in the end it didn't turn out so. So it's like just you get into this pattern. Right. I'm still like fully engaged in like sports, so that's my path. But I started looking for like a bigger truth when. And the purpose.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] Okay, so when he, when you notice changes in him.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:52:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] What changes? And then when you talk about needing a change, talk about what you wanted to change from. Cause that's really important is what makes someone interested in the Mormon Church. Often it's when things aren't going quite right. There's things missing or there are things that aren't working, or you've kind of hit a dead end or you've gone to a dark place. So talk about both for your brother and you, what was missing or what behavior y' all were changing away from.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:53:32] Right. I think he was like very advanced for his age, trying to look for the truth, coming out of the tradition. The Catholic tradition, then getting more answers, biting into the Mormon doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] So that's a doctrinal thing where you're just looking for.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:53:51] Yeah, but that was on my brother's side, so. But he was the reason that I got pulled.

John Dehlin [00:53:56] Pulled in, you know, behavioral changes. Once he started believing in the doctrine for sure.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:54:03] He gave up judo, like, at the age of 19, when you should. Like, he was the. He was the best junior judoka, like, in Slovenia. Like, he. He was high up. Like, he was even better than me. Like, he was a.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] Why would Mormonism lead him to give up?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:54:17] Because you can't compete on Sundays. Oh, and some of the. You know, it's the same with NBA or whatever, right? Like, sports. Yeah. Like, so what are you gonna pick now? I'm putting God first.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:54:28] Like, are you gonna put God first?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:54:29] So I built myself, like, I'm in the national team here. I'm about to break the ice, come to the senior scene and, you know, be. Have it more significant. But now. But now God happened to me, so that's on, you know, so I'm seeing. Wow, that's even more serious for him. Oh, he's really serious. He's giving up Sundays. Like, why are you quitting judo? Like, when you should, like, step on gas right now? These are the ages when you're like, we're expected to put the max in, right? 1920, right.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] And he would say to you, what? This is why I'm giving it up.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:55:02] Because this is the only truth. This is the church that was restored, the whole truth encompassed in it. Like, this is the path. This is the covenant path.

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:55:14] Path.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:55:14] This is what you got to do to go back, you know? And for me, that was like, I needed four years, right? But at the same time, I knew in my own life, like, I was. I was a bouncer coming home, like, from. From. Because I don't look like a bouncer.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] I'm sure you do.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:33] Huh?

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Why not? What about you?

Sara Lakner Bevc [00:55:35] I just say, it's just so funny to think of you being a bouncer.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:55:37] I'm not seven two, you know, Like, I'm not, like, you know, whatever. That's. It doesn't matter. So the guys from the Judo club, you know, we were hired, like, to look over, like, a, you know, a bar or whatever, you know, it was like. It was black market, like you. It was good money for someone, you know, bouncing, like, Friday, Saturday, and then going back to the capital, you know, to the university. And also for weekends, we commute home, right? We stay home. And that's When I get to see my brother in his like church role, right? Like going to the local branch, right?

John Dehlin [00:56:16] So he's giving up judo, dressing up in a white shirt and tie, going to church the same weekend that you're bouncing for a nightclub.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:56:24] Pretty much.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:56:25] But parallel to that, I would say it was pretty independent, like going like what happened to me is also realizing that just looking like bouncing, being there until 4 or 5am, you know, seeing people being drunk on the dance floor, just the whole promiscuity, everything, you know, going through relationships that didn't like, you know, bring success, long term success or whatever, you know, you have like a pattern and I'm like looking down, saying it can't be just this, it cannot be just this. And then having brother and it's like going his own, right? Like he's, he's in his Norman Ferrari, taking off, you know, like it's so kind of combined, both, right? Made me look into the scriptures, which I still recollect. Like, you know, the Bible, like the, you know, Old Testament, you know, it's this thick, like, well, I don't ever want to touch that book. I don't have time. It's sports, you know what I mean? I don't want to go into that because I really don't know anything. I don't want to be rejected by the Bible in so many ways. So like I was pushing it away, but my brother was coming with it, line upon line, out of his room, into my room. Hey, what do you think about this verse? It was New Testament, starting with New Testament, it was Christ speaking. I remember like being deeply touched, moved to a point that I'm like, wow, this is true.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] And what were the main doctrinal teachings that seemed most important to you? Mormon Church teachings that were most important or influential.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:58:02] So first I kind of, I connected to Jesus first. The New Testament, right? So I went out of there, right, like, wow, the world, Leave the world behind, you know, sell everything and follow me, you know, the truth. So that I'm always about that. But it's happening from my brother who's already baptized in the Elias Church. So the institution that I get connected to is Elliot Church. It could have been any other church, but it's not like here when you have like 1,000 churches spread out around the corner, you know, between two blocks. It's just a Catholic church pretty much. And I don't know anything else, you know, I'm not going there. But my brother is my connection and I know his testimony now. I feel it Right. So okay, let's just go to church and try it out, you know. And then the missionaries of course, and the senior missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [00:58:57] He has a brother too. Oh, we thinking going back. Right. Like why not? So I started going, I guess like and then there was a certain set of missionaries who were giving me lessons at a point that my brother, church, my brother joined the military course like for six months, Slovenia. But we kept meeting and, and there was a missionary, his name is, I have to mention him, like he's my best friend, like one of the best friends now here, especially in this transition is Devon. Devon was sitting me down with my brother and he actually was the first one to have balls, like to ask me the question straight for, you know, when are we getting baptized? Yeah, like you're ready? So we sat down. We were in like up north, like in a, in a town where we met and, and it was a very like restaurant or something. We actually set a date for my baptism. I was in a relationship with a very successful like judoka. Like a girl was like on, I mean it wasn't a serious relationship because it couldn't be sustained because she was like on a national team. And I remember reading, having the lessons, reading the Book of Mormon. I telling her one day, hey, I'm going to get baptized. And she said, oh wow, well I'm never going to get baptized in this church. Grew up Catholic, you know, it was a strong signal to me because I already like was looking at the model, the perfect Mormon couples, senior couples, you know, in my own local branch. And it was like on the day of the baptism or a day before, I don't even know now.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:00:50] Well, she was with you at the baptism.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:00:52] She came to the baptism and the next day we broke up.

John Dehlin [01:00:56] Wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:00:56] Yeah, I broke up actually because I said like apparently like we're going to do. You're a pro. She's a seven time European medal like holder, you know, like a significant like competitor on the judo scene. Right. Like world known. And I just, I just happened to like step on a path that's going in, in a different direction and we weren't seeing each other a lot because she was out of the country for like 200 days a year. It's all training camps, competitions.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:01:29] So that was like one milestone how I started kind of detouring towards full on Mormonism if it makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Yeah. It just strikes me it's going to be such a normal path no matter where you are in the world.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] If you're in a semi developed country you're going to go to K12, you're going to probably go to college, you're, you're, you know, you're going to probably date and probably have sex and probably try and form relationships and you're probably going to try alcohol and be confronted with alcohol and drugs and smoking. And at some point you're gonna want a family or at least consider a family. And you just think about if you want a prepackaged system, community, theology, set of beliefs to join. Religion's kind of the only game in town. Like what else presents itself to a 20, 26 year old Slovenian judo player to say, oh, you want a path? Okay, you want a community, you want an identity and morality and spirituality, come join this.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:02:38] If it's not a religion, I don't

John Dehlin [01:02:39] know what it would be.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:02:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] So it's just like, still, we're in 2025 and as a society, we don't know how to give someone a path. If they're looking for a path, if they're feeling lost, if they're feeling like they want to live a healthy moral life, there's nothing that recruits them or invites them to join.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:03:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:02] Other than a religion, I don't think.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:03:04] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Or like organized crime, I can't think of what else it should be. You know what I mean?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:03:09] Yeah. Sports is. If sports is your religion, if you're putting like 100 into sports, then you don't need anything else.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Stop competing. Except it didn't give your brother answers to the bigger questions.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:03:24] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] You know what I mean?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:03:25] Absolutely, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:03:26] So, like, yes, but like, what about the afterlife? What about, you know, the spirit?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:03:30] I don't, you know, you really like even gave any of that second thought.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:03:34] What about baptism?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:03:35] Yeah, like I'm saying, like, just normally, like, you just like, oh, like he's, you know, but boro ism, I feel like a much. He's a deep thinker. I just always think of him as

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:03:46] like, oh, thank you, Sarah.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] She's saying her brother. His brother.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:03:50] Yes. And so I feel like he was

John Dehlin [01:03:51] more into the theology stuff.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:03:52] He's very into. I mean, I don't want to speak for him, you know, but he's, I mean, once he was baptized, he was in his room for years apparently, just like studying everything, translating all the books into Slovene. And then, yeah, he served a mission here in Salt Lake, actually here in Murray.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] Oh.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:04:07] And then while he was on his mission, Mitja baptized their mom, so she came around too. So eventually it was all three of them. The stepdad was no Longer part of the picture. Just to wrap that up.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:04:18] Yes, thanks. But he just got the last train. So he was 26, 27. Going on a mission. That was the limit. Right. Age limit, your brother? Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] So were you too old by the time you joined to do a mission?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:04:30] He was 30.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:04:30] I was 30. Yeah. I couldn't serve. Right. But I saw him, and he was locked in his room for two years.

John Dehlin [01:04:36] Okay, I'm a little bit confused on timeline, because if you guys met when you were 30 or 31, but you were in the church four years, I'm

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:04:43] nine years younger than him.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:04:45] Yeah, I was on a mission. I was 22 when he was baptized, so I didn't ever meet him when he was baptized. We have the same. The mission president for him was my mission president. Right. And the mission president lived in his. In the Capitol. So they were in the same branch. And so I got a newsletter of, like, you know, every month who was being baptized around the mission. So I have his name on my mission papers of, like, meet Tia Lachner boots.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] You know, I just mean if he knew. If he was in the church four years before he met you and he met you when he was 30.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:05:14] No, he met me when I was. I met him when he was 34.

John Dehlin [01:05:17] Okay. Okay, got it.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:05:18] Yeah. So that's. Fast forward to the temple trip, 2013. It was four years later.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Got it. Now I got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:25] I was just gonna observe and make sure I got this right. So it feels like a couple key components to you being baptized in the church was this kind of your brother.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:05:38] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:39] The closeness of your brother, observing the changes he was making and his experience, like, spiritual experiences, like, that's one aspect. And then it feels like part of it is where you find yourself in life, too.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:05:56] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:57] That you've tried enough things, and you're starting to notice patterns and you're feeling like more of a seeker, Like, I kind of want something more. Is that right?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:06:08] Absolutely. Because. Sorry.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:06:09] Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:10] Maria.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:06:10] Judah was in decline because I had, like, three shoulder injuries.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:15] Yes.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:06:15] And whenever I got and took a medal at the nationals, it happened afterwards. And I needed a year to come back, and this happened two or three times. So I kind of had to convince myself, well, you're not gonna chase your dreams anymore because you're running behind. You're losing years.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:35] Yes. Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:06:35] Can I make a space for something more significant? You know, I. I need something. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:06:40] So what's key.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:41] What's very interesting to me, because you were talking about sports could also maybe, like, religion and sports Might be, but sometimes what you. It's landing in a time when sports is a little bit falling.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:06:54] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:55] It's like that dream creating your space and time.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:06:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:58] And also, let's just talk generally, like with sports, the body does break down usually as you kind of get older for sure. And so there is sort of an inevitability maybe there of a dream it not being a forever. But I just think timing is an interesting player here where it found you. And then did you also say something to the effect of that you were thinking about Christianity? Like the Christian part was something that was key, some of the messaging. And it just happened to be that the LDS church was the vehicle that was showing up through your brother. That was the vehicle of Christianity in that moment. I just think that's fascinating.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:07:44] Of course, I skipped the whole history, everything regarding Christianity. I just landed in the Mormon Church. Right, right. Due to what you just explosure.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:56] It was in the moment.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:07:57] At the same time, I got not pulled invited into a. You guys know Amway Corporation, Multi level marketing. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:07] And I grabbed it.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:09] I built a significant level in Slovenia. It's still running.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] Oh, wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] So you built a downline, an Amway MLM downline in Slovenia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:19] So Amway works in 100 countries. Whatever hit Slovenia too. Right. Like it's a, you know, second income opportunity. Right. Especially also American.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:08:27] So it was like American church, American business.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:30] Absolutely.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:08:31] Same American wife.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:32] Do you know what I mean? And I started like seeing the parallels like church. Oh yeah. Here you put a tie on. You put a tie on in that meeting. You know, here you have the perfect leaders. Here you have the perfect leaders. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] You know, and in, in the church, you bring people in and then, you

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:46] know, and I already had success. So, you know, you're capable.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:52] Interesting copy. Pasting that into other industries.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Interesting.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:08:55] So I go Amway, I go church. But then those two start colliding later on because, you know, you can have. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] Okay. Okay. So you joined the church.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:09:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] And then four years later you meet Sarah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:09:11] Yes. After trying to date the local membership, which is none, which is three girls, you know, probably a small pool.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] It's just age gaps. It's slim pickings.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:09:22] And I'm already 30, 32, 33. And these are, you know, there's a gap of 10 years. Like there's. There's not many, maybe one or two members, like same age, converting into Mormon Church in Slovenia.

John Dehlin [01:09:36] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:09:37] Right.

Sara and Mitja Meet and Begin Dating

John Dehlin [01:09:38] So what was it like dating for you two?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:09:40] We didn't date. No. I kind of joke on that, because I really feel like we did.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:09:45] So you. Can you embark on that, like, and

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:09:47] just like, all right, well, yeah, because

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:09:48] you'll go fast on the trip.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:09:49] I'll wrap it up quickly so we can get on to the. The bulk of everything else. But, yeah, I met him. We had a few days at the temple up in Germany. I really loved it.

John Dehlin [01:09:59] Did he speak English at the temple?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:10:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he did. And it was. He was just, you know, fun, cute guy, but he. I remember I went to Iceland afterwards, and I wrote him on Facebook messenger saying, hey, Mitya House, Slovenia. And then he wrote me back this, like, long thing, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, guys never actually write that much. You know what I mean? And then I just remember telling him, we said, that's kind of started our communication. And I remember saying, like, because I'd come out of a really, like, crazy relationship, I was just kind of broken, you know? And I said, thank you for giving me hope and good guys again. Because I feel like I've been dating. I was in my mid-20s, so I've been dating in Utah for, you know, 10 years or so, and I just feel like no one could ever. They can take you on dates and they can kiss you, they can make out with you and everything, but, like, they don't actually make eye contact with you the way that he did with me. I'm like, I don't even know this guy. And when I asked him what his name was, and he said, hi, I'm Mitia. Like, the way he looked at me, it was like my whole heart stopped. And I'm like, that's the most beautiful name I've ever heard in my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:01] Yes. Like, feeling seen.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:11:03] I felt so seen by him. And it wasn't like he was necessarily interested in me at the time. He was just giving me his, like, regular respect to any person he talks to, you know? And I was just like, wow, Like, I date all these guys here, and no one, like, even with a hello, can look at me the way he did. And it wasn't even that romantic look. It was just, I see you. And so that was really prominent in my mind. Like, I said, I had one way to get to Hawaii already. So I went there for a year. I did actually have a short engagement there to another guy. It didn't work out. So then when I came back to Utah after that, the island got a little small, you know, So I came back to the mainland, and I'm out

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:11:42] of the engagement Already?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:11:43] Yeah, he was out. And so we had, like, kind of kept in touch a little bit. But anytime he messaged me or commented on something, it was always so, like, heartfelt and just beautiful. And I'm like, who is this guy over here, like, on the other side of the world, just being so sweet to me. So I couldn't ever get this media out of my head, but I knew he wasn't a realistic option, so I was just trying to convince myself, like, oh, he'll just always be like a friend over there, even though I'll never see him again. And.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:12:06] Yeah, and I'm in my 30s, building the Amway business, you know, not having any relationship because I want to stay clean, and I'm waiting for my wife, right? Trying to fight the world so hard, right? Not to step across. And, you know, and it happened, like, to it, right? Like, it's. But what I really want is to, like, I want to get married. Like, you know, I'm a Mormon. Like, I'm a part of this program. Like, you know, this is it. And, of course, the pride crawls in, right? You're something special now because everyone else outside growing up with you, they see you, like, like, what the heck are you doing? You're joining Mormons. Like, polygamists. That's all they know. That's all they know, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:55] What had you been told about polygamy when you asked about it? Missionaries. I mean, church members.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:13:01] I knew, like, it was, like, a principle in the past or what? You know, like, never taught anything.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:13:06] It's not.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:13:07] Never go over there. You never went deep. You know, it's mentioned here and there, but the, you know, everyone opens up the thief handbook from, you know, whatever president it was for that month, you know, president of the church. And we're studying those lessons written out, and it's so boring. It becomes really boring. And it's. The spirit's gone. It's not like, you know, but I still believe kind of like, you know, and after I met Sarah, like, one day, I just, like. I don't know, it was social media. Posted a picture, like, from Hawaii. She's there at the beach. Like, wow, Sarah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:13:42] Okay. It wasn't like that kind of picture at the beach. It was like, whatever.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:13:48] But it was like, oh, it just brought, like, just this instant, like, feeling of how joyful it was. Like, just at the temple, you know, temple grounds. And Sarah is fun, and Sarah is like. She's. You know, she's just this bright soul. I just felt her, you know, But I could Never imagine, oh, she's going back to the States. I'm going back to break up my engagement. Oh, it's too far away. It's. You know, I'm too old, maybe. You know, the gap is too big. Whatever. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:14:17] To make full circle. It had been, like, a year in between meeting him when we kind of reconnected and I had come back from Hawaii, and he. He sent me some chocolates. We started talking. And so from February 15, 2015, till July, we were just communicating online. And then I flew out there. July 2015. So 10 years ago, almost close to the month, you know. And then I went there with a one ticket. I basically.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:14:44] Two suitcases, probably three. Three. But I said, come and date me out for the summer.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:14:50] Yeah. Because I didn't have any. Yeah. I wasn't a career girl. I was just kind of hopping around, you know? And so I was like, cool. I have nothing to do this summer. I'll come out there and be with you. But it kind of was like, I was 20. I just turned 28. So I was like, in Mormon world, you're old, you know? And I was like, I'm not gonna come out there and just, like, play around, like, if this isn't serious, you know? And he was like, yeah, I'm totally serious. And I'm like, okay. So went out there. We got married on my tourist visa in September. So two months later, we got married.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] So you got married two months after you arrived?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:15:25] My family probably thought I was psycho. And I had just gone on a vacation before, so I was like. I was looking real good, but I was just in the. Like I said, after I graduated college, I kind of turned into the free spirit girl again, where I was traveling here myself. I moved to Hawaii by myself. And, yeah, I was happier on those pictures in Hawaii. Cause I felt free there. I wasn't in this pressure world where I felt like, it's okay to be single there. It's not so frowned upon as it is in this valley. And so I felt freer to be. Like, the original Sarah was coming back to me a little bit. And so in my brain, it was like, oh, get married in Europe. That's like, totally what I'm down for. So I went over there totally expecting this to work out. And it did, but it was still so fast, and I couldn't even keep up with my own decision. Like, that's a whole nother story.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:15] But it was.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:16:16] It was a lot. I bit into a lot more than I could handle. And I thought, like, oh, I'm this free bird. I can do this. I've been in the mission. I know where it's like in this country. I know what culture I'm getting into. But living there with a culture, literally with the culture in a person, you know what I mean? Not with your American companion at home and, you know, living your little, you know, life as a missionary. I mean, it was a whole nother world.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:16:38] And so how much do you get to know each other in two and a half months?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:16:43] Not at all.

Temple Marriage and Early Married Life

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:16:44] To make the biggest, most important step.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:47] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:16:47] And get sealed in the temple.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:49] Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] Which temple?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:16:51] Not Frankfurt, Switzerland, because Frankfurt was under.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:16:56] So we got civilly married September 24, like in, you know, in a little castle.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:17:03] It was very picturesque.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:17:04] You know, her mom flew out. None of her family members, other family members could fly out. So her mom flew out for the wedding. She has no, you know, immediate family there. And then the next day, right after the same day, we hop in a car. My brother is driving us to, you know, 14 hour drive to Bern, Switzerland. Temple should be 10. It was 14. We didn't sleep.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:17:29] It was crazy. We just didn't. We have like. No, it was just not what at all what I pictured my wedding to be. It was so we might get into it. It was just a very non traditional situation. But like I said, I was this free bird and I felt like, oh, I can do this. And as soon as I got married, it was like, oh, there's the bird in the cage and locked the door. And I felt, felt so trapped. So it was like the biggest shock of my life. Even though I chose all of this willingly, I was totally in over my head. It's first of all, marriage. Second of all, another culture. He's a convert, not a lifetime member. So there were so many things that you think you are on the same page on with members that are just like, you don't have to talk about it, we just know the rules, you know, and it was just there were so many cultural collisions on every level, you know, so it was, it was a hard couple years there.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] What were a few of the biggest issues in your early marriage, culturally? If you want to share whatever you want to share.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:18:29] No, like everything.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:18:30] Like, I mean, like whether or not you eat potatoes the next day or whether or not you can have air conditioning in July. Whether or not.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] What do you mean the next day?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:18:37] Exactly. You, you can get sick if you eat potatoes the next day. I don't want to be like saying negative things because.

John Dehlin [01:18:46] Is that a belief? Yes. They really do.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:18:48] Generally don't do that.

John Dehlin [01:18:51] This is because Potato leftovers.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:18:55] I'm like, do you all want to know about things?

John Dehlin [01:18:56] We're not making fun of anyone after this.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:18:57] No, no, no. Yeah, it is.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:18:59] Or, like, sitting outside, like, you know, on a cold floor or whatever piece of plate.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:19:04] Some of them I knew from my mission. Like, you don't. Women do not sit on hard surfaces, especially if it's cold, without, like, a newspaper or a cardboard thing underneath you on, like, the bus bench or whatever. Because they do believe that, like, you can be infertile or you can just get cancer. You have to really protect women's reproductive organs. Okay. And you don't wear jeans in the winter without, like, those nude nylons underneath, you know, how come? It just is an extra layer of warmth, and it actually does make you warmer, turns out. And it does actually, like, they're almost like a shaper, so it's, like, beneficial in other ways. But if you're not into nylons, it's the worst thing ever, right?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:19:44] You don't take a shower and not bundle up when it's, you know, top winter season. Right. And go out, like, freezing. No. You're gonna get, like, you know, exposed to cold, and you're gonna be sick.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:19:56] Your ears have to always be bundled

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:19:58] up in Europe, like scarves, mittens, like, all the time. People walk, people bikes. They actually are outside. They don't sit in the car, drive from garage to garage and go into their office. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:20:08] I mean, there were so many. You couldn't go through a day without being, like, hit in the face multiple times by things that were just different. And because I was the American, there only I knew the collisions. And so I was a people pleaser growing up in the church. That's part of the package of being a girl. You're a pleaser, and you smile, and you just be respectful. And so I kept my mouth shut for, like, two years on everything. And it built up so much pain in me where I eventually just, like, couldn't take it. And I just, like, everything came out. It was just really, really rough. And so it was like. I can adjust constantly to other people, but they have no idea how much I'm screaming in my head, this is insane. You know? So it was just. It was way too much for me. And even if I would try to communicate some things to him, he had never even been to America until after we got married. So it's like he only knows movies. America, like, there's just. I mean. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:00] I mean, who's been a culture show.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:21:02] Oh, major. And it was just so much more because I thought I knew what I was getting into because of my mission.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] But it's different.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:21:06] It's so different.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] Missions are so controlled and so sheltered,

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:21:10] especially if your companion's an American, you know, like, you have no idea what the culture is. So. But now I, you know, I mean, I could just go on forever on these things. That's a whole episode itself. But.

John Dehlin [01:21:21] But anyways, did y' all have kids pretty quickly?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:21:24] Within two years, we had our first girl, and then two years later a boy. And then two years later, we come to the States and we had our third baby. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] So you lived as a married Mormon couple in Slovenia for how long?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:21:41] Six years.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] Six years. Do you want to talk about what it was like to be in the church in Slovenia as a young married. A married couple? For sure.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:21:48] You. Or like, I mean, you got thrown into the callings right away. Right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:21:52] If you're a married couple, you're now officially.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:21:54] We have an American, actually. Right. You're such a, you know, added value, like, to the Sloven market right now. Right. Or Sloven church. We have Sarah now. Right. Like, she's in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] A return missionary woman from Utah, of course, would almost be worshiped potentially.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:22:11] Of course, right away. She's like Relief Society president, you know, like, like, she's doing lessons. I'm called into the bishopric. I mean, the branch presidency, you know,

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:22:21] the same month we had our first girl. So it was like, become a dad and also become the branch president of the capital city, the biggest branch in Slovenia. And then I was the district president, Relief Society. So, like, over all of Slovenia, that's

John Dehlin [01:22:32] like a Stake Relief Society.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:22:34] On my due date, I was hosting Sister Eubanks. Eubanks to come over.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] She's a high level Mormon church leader woman.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:22:41] Yes. And so she came and I was like, I'm supposed to be at the hospital having a baby right now, but here we are, you know.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] So were y' all thinking you were. Did you feel a sense of mission and purpose that you were helping building the Mormon Church in Slovenia?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:22:56] That was my entire purpose of being there. Like, I didn't even feel like I was allowed to even pray about coming back to America. Like, when I was married there, like, the mission presidents were like, when you married me too. You married this, like, this country and you're going to. You need to have babies right now and you need to build up this kingdom here and you do not move back to America. It was like, so like, there was so much shame for anyone who would go to America, even if it was like, a Slovene kid going to byu, it was like the district president was like, if anyone even mentions BYU one more time, it was like. They were like. It was bad. I didn't even feel like I could personally even say a prayer about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:30] So it's viewed as abandoning. Is that the idea that you're abandoning? Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:23:34] So it's like I took it very much as this is just an extension for my mission and being the most faithful heart that I could have. It was. It was totally like, I don't have a choice. And so that's when it became even more difficult for me. I felt trapped.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] So it wasn't fun for you? It wasn't fun to build the Mormon Church in Slovenia?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:23:51] I did it because I love. I. It was. I was so torn because I couldn't even. Just like, you can't admit certain things in church. If you have an issue with it, you just keep going through. I still loved it all, but it was. It became a little bit resentful because I felt I lost all, like, say in it. But I wasn't even. But I accepted that as. That's what the priesthood holders are telling me. That's what God is telling me. Because that's what they're telling me. God is saying to me, you know, like, I. I really did lose my voice there, 100%. It was like getting married in Slovenia. It was like another round of the temple. Like, I was stripped of who I was. I needed to become Slovene Sarah, not American Sarah. I needed to be the wife of the branch president. I needed to be the district president of society. I needed to be an extended. Because on a mission, I was all for the members. And I was always so giving. And I had everything to give because I knew that there was an end date. And you can only give so much. When I lived there, there was no end date. And I thought, I'm. And I started, like, hiding in the church. Just, like, no one find me in this little room because they'll never stop expecting things from me. Like, I would organize, you know, there's few people to help. So it was all on me. Every, like, party activity. And my language was not good. I knew Croatian, which had already been like, a few years, like, six years since my mission. So I'd forgotten creation. Slovene is a totally different language, even though it's Slavic. It was a. I had to relearn that one. And it was just. I felt so buried under stress.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] You Were trying to learn Slovenian.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:25:19] Oh, yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [01:25:20] Because that was the main language.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:25:22] Yeah. And so in Slovenia, it was a different language than my mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:24] Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:25:25] No, I like, say it's the jump from Spanish to Portuguese. I don't know if that's true, but that's just the way I predict. I see it.

John Dehlin [01:25:31] So a person speaking Slovenian to a person speaking Croatian can kind of understand each other.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:25:37] Oh, no. Slovenes were learning Serbo Croatian language in Yugoslavia. Me growing up. That's why I know Croatian. I can talk, but they don't understand me. Croatia does. Croatians do understand a little bit of Sloven. They don't understand. Usually speak it, but Serbs don't understand. Although it's the same language, Croatian and Serbian, like, it's kind of a. It's the same group of languages.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:25:58] It's interesting.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:25:59] But we had to learn. I don't know for what reason. And they didn't have to learn Sloven, you know, inside the same.

John Dehlin [01:26:04] You knew Croatian.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:26:05] Yes, because that was.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] The Croatians didn't learn Slovenia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:26:08] Exactly. The more. The further you go south, like, they don't, you know, the less they know Slovenian language.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:26:14] But Slovenes know it. And the culture from the south is coming up, like, you know, okay, Spanish because of your mission, but also, like, there's so many immigrants here. Right. Like, going up north. So.

John Dehlin [01:26:25] So was it hard to learn yet another language?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:26:27] Oh, yeah. And I wasn't ever good at creation. I just didn't feel like I was a language kind of girl. So it was really like, I had a bad image in my head, like, oh, I can't learn languages, you know, because I think they put that on sisters. Also. Admissions like, oh, sisters get by. But elders are really where it's all happening. Like, you know, there's always that prejudice, I feel. But anyways, I did learn Slovene, and I feel like I speak it way better than my creation ever was. Obviously, it's been a number more years, but thankfully, I think it's due to his mom. His mom helped me the most.

John Dehlin [01:26:56] Can I just say, that's a lot.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:26:58] It was a lot. It was a lot.

John Dehlin [01:27:00] Newlywed in a foreign country, learning a new language, you know, adjusting to married life and having babies while you're serving in the equivalent of a Stake Relief Society presidency. That's like. That feels like too much.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:27:17] It was so much. It was so much. And you couldn't say it. You're not allowed to say. I remember when I was called in to be the reciting president, this district president Kwamma state president was like, how do you feel about this? And I said, honestly, I am so stressed out right now. Like, I'm depressed. I don't think I can handle much more. And then he's like, okay, well, I know the Lord will strengthen you. Yeah, something to that degree. Right. And he's like, so do you accept? And I'm like, well, I guess I don't have a choice. Yeah, I'll accept. But you understand where I'm at. Like, this is not good for me.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] Oh. Because in Mormon culture, when a leader extends a calling, it's from God.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:27:51] Yeah. You do not. And I just, you know, as I felt like multiple times in Sylvania, I would express my genuine feelings, and then right after would be the official question. It's just like. But just say yes and get by. And so, you know, it's just a lot. And so it did build some things there, but. Yeah, but that was still never a problem for me. It never broke me. You know what I mean? It just. You just keep going. Because I believed so truly that this is really what I'm supposed to do. And it's just, you know, it was all good. It was still all good for me, but it was so not okay for me, if you know what I mean.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:28:21] It's very paradoxical, right? Like, you know, you chose this. We both chose this. Finally, I'm married. Like, this beautiful Sarah, you know, she grew up Mormon. She can teach me so much, you know, I don't know any of that. You know, I'm bringing the other side in, right. I'm a convert. We start to build a family. You know, I got my second career or third with a tie on every Sunday, you know, meetings, ministering, this that, you know, you start being important.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:28:49] We had one car, and we lived. By the time we had kids, we were living 20 minutes outside of. We were like, in this little village. And so when he would have his meetings after church, I would be there pregnant or with kids, waiting like five, six, seven hours after church because I couldn't take. Take Slovenes just don't drive very much. So I get. I adjusted to their travel. If I was my American stuff, I would just drive home and come back and get them later, you know, but it was just so taboo to drive outside the city if you have to come back the same day. So I would just sit and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait. And these people don't have boundaries, you know?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:29:22] So she started working from home, too.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:29:25] I did My judo, like, that's a different story. Anyway. Yes.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:29:28] No, okay. No, I'm saying all. Like,

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:29:34] before kids, I worked at an international school in the capital. I taught preschool there for national. All the embassy kids were with me. It was really great. But again, English only, so I didn't learn any sloven there. And then after I had kids, I worked from home teaching English online. So I was always working and always doing the calling and always being everything else. So it was a lot.

John Dehlin [01:29:54] How is it for you having your Mormon temple marriage? Was it a hard adjustment for you as well?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:30:02] I mean, I never understood temple like it was. I was endowed when I met her right already. But on our temple marriage day, my mom went through the temple for her first time.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:30:16] Her endowment.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:30:17] She couldn't have been there if.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:19] Oh, right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:30:20] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:30:20] So that was like, my mom's not into it. Like, I baptized her, right? She's coming. Like, she's.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:30:26] She's very faithful.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:30:27] I mean, she's a mom to all the missionaries. She's cooking. She's sewing their pans. She's like. You know what I mean? Like, it's sets and sets of missionaries, like, going through our apartments and, you know, eating there and giving lessons. But she's like, she won't go deep into the doctrine. She's serving. She's doing the gospel, not the religion.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:30:46] She's the primary and everything. She always had her little book out

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:30:48] on the table and. Yeah, but she's going through the temple and, like, coming out on the. You know, the very day, like. Like, I saw her eyes, and it's like, what. What is that?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:31:00] Like, where did they dress me in the bridal room?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:31:03] And she was sitting in the chair, right? And it's. It's through my mom, I see something. And of course, I kind of dismiss it. I address it, say, mom, it's okay. Like, we don't know, you know, but it kind of challenges your own feelings and, you know, kicks you back. Like. Yeah, it's really weird, right? It's like, I don't understand anything. Okay, I'll do that. Right? And Sarah's, like, waving from the other side in the, you know, like, a different time. Whatever. I'm just saying I'm putting it all together, like, a total experience, right? Like, hey, here we are in a. I'm thinking, wow, we all look like cooks. Like, okay, no, no, seriously, we're in a cooking class. Like, yeah, there's the macros and the.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:45] We discussed before. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:31:46] What's the recipe for today? Like, it's I'm sorry. It's like, it really felt like this, right? Like, more and more. The more, you know.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:31:54] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:31:55] And then the next time we went here, like, with. With our family members, you know, and it was five minutes, and, you know, another family member to the right, like, is. You know, he's already asleep, you know, And I'm like, isn't he, like, full on? Like, didn't he, like, doesn't he want to stay awake even if he's tired? You know? And then to the left, I look, another family member, you know, he's nodding, you know, and there's another family, you know? You know, we're all cool, but we never talk about it. We never talk about the weirdness. Like, all the things that we don't understand. Wow, we're so special.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] How is the Mormon lifestyle for you in Slovenia? The best as a married Mormon.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:32:35] Oh, build me up. Stop. I stopped competing in judo. Like, this is my new career. You put a tie on you. You know, you start climbing the ladder, which never ends. All of a sudden, I'm in the branch presidency.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:32:49] And then all the emails come in from church headquarters in Salt Lake. You know, it was never enough. It was just like, you missed this form. You missed this form. You missed this form. Yeah, yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:33:01] Which is like 2016. I get called as a. The branch president, which is the Highest calling. Okay. 17.

John Dehlin [01:33:09] So the equivalent of a bishop, you recall Exactly.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:33:13] Right. In the only chapel in the capital. Right. Like, you're over. You're presiding over, I don't know, say, like, 50 to 70 people max coming. Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:23] That's a big deal. One of the only big deals in

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:33:26] the country, because you feel. You start feeling, like, entitled, and you see, you really start believing that you're something special because of the title that they give you.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:35] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:33:36] But then you see that it's actually they were, like, choosing out of two people who were kind of qualified, you know? No, I'm saying, like, that's the truth. Right. All of a sudden you're in that office, you're listening to people's, like, stories, life challenges for two, three hours while your pregnant wife is, like, dying outside on the bench. Can't go home because we have one car. Right. Like, it's. But you're the priesthood holder, priesthood leader. You're the judge of Israel. You take people's money. You're supposed to feel. To make them feel the best when they give you their money. And that was also, like, one of the first things that started bothering me. Like, it started coming just organically to me, like, who am I to take your money? Who am I to ask you if you pay this much or that much? Like, who am I? This is not of God. There's a broken family with a semi schizophrenic dad who I dearly love with his issues. A mom with a handicapped child who was born right after he was, like, in a wheelchair that's halfway broken. And I'm trying to teach him how they're gonna be blessed by paying the money, because this is God's money and they have to pay him back. But in all reality, it's like, wait a minute.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:35:06] We should be buying you a wheelchair.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:35:08] Should be buying you yesterday, like a new wheelchair for your handicapped child. So things started coming. The more influence you have, the more insight you have into the. The bureaucracy, administration.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:22] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:35:22] And all the forms. I'm not even leading anymore. I'm just signing papers, like, tidying this, lighting that, this meeting that. Organizing, cleaning, church Saturdays. I mean, I'm the executor. I'm not leading, like, spiritually. Like, there is. All this spiritual is gone.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:39] Yeah. There's too much to be done.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:35:41] Checkups, that was the biggest thing, is that I'm cleaning after missionaries. Not a. I'm a branch president. You know, they drop the food after we had, like, whatever. So we are the last ones. My pregnant wife and me stay in the chapel because I can't leave the chapel like that. This is God's chapel. This is like, it's not how it's supposed to be. All the missionaries go home. I clean after them.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:36:01] You all are missionaries that offer to help. In their defense, they did offer, but

Margi Dehlin [01:36:05] you all are working so hard. It's like a zero to 60 since your marriage. All the things that you're taking on, for sure.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:36:15] So that all. Sorry, go ahead, John. No, I was just saying that all brought back on that feeling of when I went through the temple, of like, okay, now it's time to buckle down. No more fun, Sarah. You have to build up Sylvania and do it the right way, because this is going to be the generations beyond. Like, how you set it up now will be how they live the gospel later. Like, there was so much pressure. So it was no longer, like, there was no more fun free Sarah. It was like, well, did you sign that paper right? Or we need to do this. This is how we're supposed to do it. This is how we're doing it. You know? And it was just like, oh, it's just so disgusting.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:42] It becomes very business. Y.

Doubts Begin to Surface in the Marriage

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:36:44] It was so. And, yeah, you don't even see how much you've, like, even lost your own way of, like, wait, why are we doing this again? You know?

John Dehlin [01:36:52] And yet I've met a lot of Mormons who sacrifice for the church in, you know, different but similar settings. There's a lens that Mormons would put on an era like that in their lives where they would say, it was the best moments of our lives. It was the. We were serving, we were giving. It was so small, and we were helping build something. So did y' all feel that too? Or was it. Or was it just also just a hassle and too much work?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:37:23] No, there was definitely rewards to it, you know, and because I deeply believed it, that it really was. It was good. And even to this day, I still kind of miss, like, moments of that, you know, that sense of community. And our little girl, like, running around the chapel while we were doing things. Like, she felt so at home there, you know? And it's like, even though I don't want that to be, I don't feel like it's a safe place anymore, you know, for my personal reasons, I still miss thinking I had a safe place to go for my family, you know,

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:37:54] but for me, it was mostly, like, starting to see the crack between religion and the gospel.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] When you were a leader in the church.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:38:02] Yeah, of course, because I'm doing all of this, but I. All I actually want to do is, like, I just want to. Just want to talk to people, make them feel welcome, make them feel loved. Like, I just want to represent Christ without all the garbage, without all the papers, with all the norms, all the sense they need to, like, match up to this, you know, Like, I don't want the corporation. It was kind of over my head, right? But I can't be me genuinely anymore. All the organic is gone, right? Like, is. You know, and. Yeah, then Covid hit whatever real quick.

John Dehlin [01:38:35] Was your brother still very active when you were a branch president?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:38:39] Oh, absolutely. He came back from his mission, and with him, it was like he. He thought, like, I gave everything to you, God. Like, there's a red carpet waiting for me, you know, like, I'm going to date. I'm going to get married. I'm, you know, the.

John Dehlin [01:38:51] Did he get married?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:38:51] No, he's still single at the age of 40.

John Dehlin [01:38:53] Oh, wait, so your faithful brother that got. Got you into the church but was not able to find a Mormon wife in Slovenia?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:39:00] Well, he moved to Germany.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:39:00] He moved to Germany. Worked there for six years in Munich.

John Dehlin [01:39:04] Did you Find a Mormon wife.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:39:06] No, not really. Small church is small too. Right. So after six years, you know, like, of searching, look like seeing his brother following him and kind of in the Mormon way, surpassing him.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:23] Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:39:24] Because now I'm closer. Like I'm. I have a family.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:27] Yes.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:39:28] Kids. I have all the callings. Branch president, you know, and it's like, I always felt bad, like, why, What's. What's wrong?

Margi Dehlin [01:39:35] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:39:35] Why can't he not catch up? Kind of.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:39] That's right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:39:40] Because he was the initial point of me, like, joining the church or the big contributor.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:45] Absolutely.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:39:46] Right. So I always felt. I felt bad, like, for my younger brother, who I saw so organically joining the church and seeking the truth, I kind of felt like, oh, but you're not doing the needed steps on the Mormon ladder to progress. Do you know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:40:04] That's right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:40:04] Yeah. So I felt bad for that part, kind of, you know, and I wish, like he, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:09] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:40:10] So. But we kind of disconnected because he was in Germany and we had our busy lives doing this, that business. I thought judo. Sarah's working from home. Pregnant, second kid, all baby blessings, Sundays lessons. You know how it goes.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Wow, that's a harsh trick on your brother. Because it's unnatural. If there's such slim pickings in either Slovenia or Germany for him to find a partner, you just had to luckily go on a temple trip and meet Sarah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:40:38] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:40:38] But if that hadn't have happened, who knows, right? You might go to your 40 or 50, you might even fall in love with the Never Mormon, but believe that it's evil or a sin to marry that person. So you might even give up the love of your life or multiple loves of your life, holding out for a statistical non reality. And that's where something that can seem benign, that can seem beautiful, that can seem harmless, can really mess up a person's life.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:41:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] Because your brother, today, to this day, 2025, your brother's a believing Mormon.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:41:13] No.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] Okay, we're getting ahead of ourselves. So he lived for how many years as a believing Mormon without being able to find a wife?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:41:20] So what, like 15? Just until four years ago.

John Dehlin [01:41:24] So he lived 15 years trying to find a believing Mormon wife in Slovenia, Germany, and not being able to find it. Yeah, because this. Because the pickings are so slim.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:36] That's interesting. Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:41:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:38] And it's completely outside his control.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:41:40] I would say most of the couples in Slovenia are international.

John Dehlin [01:41:43] Yeah. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:41:44] From Peru, you know.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:41:48] They find each other. You know, the social media does things, apps, you know, and you have to go for that. And my brother went through a period of that, too. You know, like it's. And dating and, you know, but just like. Like, it's big, big moves, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:01] Yeah.

Covid, Vaccines, and Cracks in Faith

John Dehlin [01:42:01] So. So Covid rolls around around 2020, is that right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:42:06] Yes, we're still in Slovenia.

John Dehlin [01:42:07] Y' all lived in Slovenia for how many years again?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:10] Six.

John Dehlin [01:42:11] Six years.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:42:11] So from 2015 to 2021, we were there.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:42:15] I'm still the branch president.

John Dehlin [01:42:17] How many years did you serve as branch president?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:42:19] Four and a half.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] That's pretty much almost five years.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:42:21] About four.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:42:22] No more than four.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] Did your. The UN unit. It doesn't matter. Does the unit experience growth? Do you have. Do you grow the branch?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:42:31] No, of course not.

John Dehlin [01:42:32] It doesn't grow. What do you mean, of course not? Because it's.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:42:34] People were baptized, but it's not like

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:42:36] anything happened because this is Slovenia. No one's joining Mormon Church.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:42:41] It grows generations. That's why they wanted us to have.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:42:45] Let's say it this way. So when Yugoslavia opened up, for economical reasons, countries got independent, right? Slovenia, Croatia, and so on. You're in the market, right? Of course, religion crawls in as every other business, right. All of a sudden you have Mormons coming knocking on your door. You know, people know about this, but they don't know anything, Right? So it was three pioneer families in Slovenia who joined. Three converts who started having, like, you know, three, four kids. Five. A few people from the street, mainly with, like, mental issues. Let's be like.

John Dehlin [01:43:23] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:43:23] Do you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:43:25] Oftentimes, Mormon missionaries will look for immigrants in a country, of course, the extra poor and less educated.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:43:31] Yes. They feel welcomed, you know, at first, Right? You feel welcomed.

John Dehlin [01:43:35] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:43:35] You have a free meal. You come over on Sunday, someone's cooking something, you know, no one's really threatening. Everyone's super nice. These Americans, couples, older couples. You will always find a person to connect to, right? Whether it's missionaries young, whether it's like the elder missionaries, but that's all you got. And then you have a few converts getting baptized, and they're out. And then, you know, it's just that. But the number is decline in decline. I just read an article I saw, like, there was a reporter going, like, to. To the very church in the capital, right? And she knew nothing. She was unprepared. And they served her, my friends from the, you know, still believing Mormons, they served her, like, you know, the best version of everything. There's no deep into doctrine, not about polygamy, not this, you know, we're this. We're different. We're not harmful. Look at us. There's no crosses. There's no heavy Catholicism. You're always, you know, the door is open. Come join us. You know, And I kind of wrote her back after reading that, and I said, I'm sorry. You should have been more prepared. Like, this is not the real picture. I'm coming from that chapel. I served there. I gave 15 years to that. You know, you need to correct that article. This is not what it is.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] What was the size of. What were the number of active Mormons in Slovenia when you joined the church versus when you moved to the United States?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:45:05] I think it's in decline. Yeah, My local hometown, branch. Like, I would say, like, a few people come. Like 10 people coming.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:45:13] Didn't they merge the branches?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:45:15] Then they merging, then they're renaming, then they're like. Because it looks bad.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] So the Mormon Church is in decline now?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:45:22] Oh, absolutely. They're claiming in this article, oh, they have a growth, you know. But then I see a picture in the very article, and it's the General Conference, and you come to your church and you watch it on a screen, and it's like eight missionaries sitting and two of my friends, a couple. Right. And three more. Three people that, like, from the street, you know, and it's 13 people all together watching General Conference in the very chapel. Because they're probably gonna have a meal afterwards and this and just hang out and it's okay. Yeah, but these are the numbers.

John Dehlin [01:45:52] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:45:53] You know, really quickly.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] You know, if you. If a Mormon missionary goes to serve in Latin America or the Philippines or Africa, they may have 10 baptisms a month. There are missionaries in my mission that had 40 baptisms a month. That's one companionship. What is it about Eastern Europe where a missionary will only have three baptisms for their entire year and a half? They serve or three years.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:46:18] That was a big number.

John Dehlin [01:46:20] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:46:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:21] Yeah. So why, what is it? Is it anti Americanism?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:46:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] Is it American?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:46:26] And I saw that anti Americanism. I would say I saw that way more as a member there than I did a missionary. I didn't see how much they did not want American culture coming into their Slovene church. They wanted to keep it Slovene. They didn't want any. There was actually a lot of, like, rude behavior from some of the members towards the senior couples because they were just wanting to, like, yeah, it's an. You know, we're just going to do this is the way the Lord wants it, whatever. But, yeah, so there was A lot of resistance, even within the church.

John Dehlin [01:46:55] So in Latin America, it's like, oh, America's great, and Michael Jordan and, you know, Coca Cola and McDonald's. Can you explain Mitia as someone from Eastern Europe, anti Americanism?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:47:07] So they keep distance, I would say, because they know, like, from the political field, you know, they would mock Trump. They would. This, you know, like, America is. Oh, America is America. Right. But we have our America here.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:47:19] They would always say that.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:47:20] Right. Does that mean, like, you don't have to go and have to experience your life fully, like, and live an American life? Because America, everyone wants, in a. In a span, like, in their life, like, wants to go to the States. It's just the movies brought it over. Hollywood, everything, the whole industry. Right. You know, you have American bases, like, they're 800 military bases all around the world. You know, like, you. You feel the States are present. Right. But then when it comes to religion and those really pioneer, like, few families, they take over and they don't want to let go. And they. They would use the senior couples. Would you agree to a point? But I would say, oh, oh, but you're not going to teach us your American way, because this is God's church.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:08] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:48:09] We're the pioneers here. So that could be a little bit different versus, like, the Latin America.

John Dehlin [01:48:15] Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:48:15] Where they would hand you over and you can do whatever you want, kind of. Right. Would you agree, John?

John Dehlin [01:48:20] Yeah. I'm just wondering how much of that is. I mean, I was gonna mention you. I grew up in the Cold War.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:48:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:26] Where, like, America described the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc as kind of like the bad guys. Of course, the Evil Empire Olympics and, you know, America has got to beat the Soviet Union and the Eastern European countries. Communism's evil.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:48:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] Capitalism is good. Democracy's good. Dictators are bad. America's good. Eastern Europe and Russia, evil. What was it in the flip. Forget putting the church aside. What was the view of America from the Eastern European perspective in that sense?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:49:01] Sense.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:49:02] I think they have a lot of sympathy. Right. You know, because we got the capitalist system. We. We went out of socialism. Now the, you know, the economy is open. You can have your own business. You can. You know what I mean? Like, it's all the good things you would take, but you don't want to bring in, like, the bad things.

John Dehlin [01:49:20] Like what?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:49:22] Consumerism, you know, like all these crazy religions, they watch shows as well. They say these people are crazy. What's going on with the States? You know, like the clans, the mafia, the. This that, you know, the politics and it's a show. They take it as a show.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:49:37] It's kind of a joke.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:49:39] It's kind of a joke.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:49:40] American culture, I think, genuine.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:49:43] Oh, Trump, you know, like.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:49:44] Yes, but.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] But this would have been before Trump. Like, I mean.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:49:47] Yeah, even before, you know, or Bush, you know, or around like 9, 11 or whatever. You know, this is like. Like what is going on. School shootings. Yeah, we don't have that. Slovenia is the. A most safe, like to some characteristics place in the world.

John Dehlin [01:50:03] So there's not the crime in the handguns in Slovenia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:50:06] Like, of course there's crime. Like, you know, some in America.

John Dehlin [01:50:09] I'm saying. Sorry, not the same level of crime.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:50:12] Oh, no. We don't know what crime is anything like crazy. Because it's 2 million people. I'm sorry. Because it's 2 million people. Every little thing gets so magnified.

John Dehlin [01:50:24] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:50:25] Oh, that one killed, you know, his wife, like in a rural area because he was probably drunk or whatever and the marriage didn't go for 30 years, you know, and someone did something. Right. But it's not like gangs. It's not.

John Dehlin [01:50:37] It's systemic.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:50:38] Yeah, yeah. I was just gonna say if there's anything like scary happening over there, it's usually like a domestic thing in a village somewhere. It's not like. Like a public, you know, threat. And. But when people say over there, like, you know, this is my America, they mean like, this is the land of plenty, you know, because we think of America as like the land of dreams, the land where everything's possible. Right. The land of where you're going to be happy. And I actually was. I thought it was beautiful how Slovenes were so in love with their land that they said, this is my America, you know, like, I don't need to go there to have my Merca. Like, I'm happy here. I don't need that. Everything's bigger and greater, better there.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:16] You know, it's almost the marketing. It's like the marketing of America.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:51:21] And they viewed church in the same. You know, the Mormon Church is kind of an extension of American religion.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:28] That's right. Colonialism.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:51:30] Refrigerator. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:32] There's a colonial aspect to it. It feels like. And is there a religion more American than Mormonism?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:51:39] Oh my gosh. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:40] So like hand in hand.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:51:43] Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:51:43] And way this. That's of course, MLMs. Right. Stay away from it. So I had a hard. So I was doing that. Right. So I need people.

John Dehlin [01:51:53] Okay. All right. You know, interesting if you were to ask me before this interview today, where's safer? The average American town or Slovenia, I would say. Oh, well, Slovenia is Eastern European, so America's got to be safer than anywhere in Eastern Europe.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:52:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:12] But that's not true.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:52:13] No, it's not true. Because we're not.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:52:15] We're. Yeah. So we're not sure that we're moving our family over there again. We're relocating again. And that's one of the main reasons.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:52:21] But it's not. It's not an Eastern. Eastern country. So we have a very specific history. Yeah, very specific. You know, we're in between Italy, Austin, Austria, Hungary, and Croatia.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:52:32] It's like an incredible geopolitical geographical point spot with all the nature beauties. Like 2 million people. It's a village. Like, you know, but now joining eu, I mean, years ago. Right. Like in NATO, and you gotta. You gotta be with the big boys. We have to deal with all of these influences. You know, we're like.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:52:55] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:52:55] And we have another government in the eu, you know, like, directing them. So it's. It's. It's also mixed up.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:02] It sounds sophisticated.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:53:04] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:05] Really? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:05] Interesting.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:53:06] It is.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] Okay, cool. Okay. So Covid happens. So Covid leads you to move back to the United States. Were you just exhausted? Just exhausted or what?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:53:18] Like I said, I never felt like I had the opportunity to even pray about moving to the States ever again. But after our second baby, it was 20, 21. Do we talk about basically collectively, like,

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:53:30] what was the trigger?

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:53:31] We watched the. Every year, we would watch the Easter video that the first presidency would put out, you know, and if you listen to it audibly, it's like a beautiful message for the resurrection Easter video. Right. We loved the words, but we were sitting there watching it together, and we're just like, this is so weird. Why are they getting vaccinated in the Easter video? Like, it was just so weird to see that insert into the video if you.

John Dehlin [01:53:55] So Covid happens. The Mormon prophet gives some Easter message where he also encourages members to get

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:54:01] vaccinated in the video.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:54:03] He doesn't say it verbally, but the imagery is like, him getting vaccinated.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:54:08] And like, Wendy and Russell just.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:54:10] Yeah. Just doing all this. But then they're talking about the resurrection of Christ, and I was just like, what is. Even if you're for or against vaccinations, what does this have to do with the resurrection of Christ? It just felt so weird. And that was the first thing that stood out to us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] It's worth noting that a lot of conservative and maybe politically conservative Mormons were challenged in their faith when the Mormon Church came out to be pro vaccine during COVID Because I think there's probably a lot of conservative, skeptical views of vaccines amongst a decent sized group of Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:45] Mormons. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] And y', all, that's how you felt at the time.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:54:49] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:54:50] So we didn't. We didn't get the vaccine. Is there.

John Dehlin [01:54:52] Is there a Slovenian culture around vaccines?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:54:56] No, there's no culture. But we were exposed in our beliefs about the vaccine. That's what Covid did. It just expose it, brought it to the surface. Right. And now, like, you, you don't know what's going on. You don't know what they're preparing. Actually, we're all very, you know, vulnerable.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:55:12] Yeah, there was a lot of fear going around at the time. Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:55:14] But I just felt like I do not want to do that because you take it. I'm not. Right. But then when you see your church leader that you are supposed to obey, follow with everything you have. You know, I'm the branch president. You have the influence. You know, we're online. We have Zoom. Right. Church by then. But like, it was to me, it was like, wow. And then even more pressure from the church officially, like, we urge you to get vaccine. This is God sent. This is blah, blah, blah, you know, and it's like, wow, when I'm listening to all the media, all the sources, and I'm hearing this and this and this, it's like, why would the prophet of the world, not just the church, be urging this, pushing this so much? It just didn't sit with me.

John Dehlin [01:56:01] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:56:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:56:02] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:56:03] And that was the first crack kind of, you know, like it bothered me right away from all the doctrine. Why is this being pushed so much?

John Dehlin [01:56:10] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:56:11] And along with that, we're totally restricted. We have curfews. You can't go to. To a bank, you can't go to a post office. You have to be tested every, I don't know, whatever few days. If you're a public worker, like, mask everything. My mom couldn't enter, like, post office, whatever, fighting with security guards, you know, she doesn't want to put her mask on and whatever. Right, right. And a lot of tension. Protests against the government. Government pushing the vaccine.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:56:39] Oh, got it.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:56:40] Everything shut down. So when people said here, restrictions and we got here, I said, no, these are not restrictions. We literally couldn't be out like between 9pm and 6am so Slovenia was more

John Dehlin [01:56:52] restrictive around shut down than the United States shut down.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:56:56] You couldn't go across like county lines unless you had Like, a written form of why you were, like, taking care of property you owned or. Like, we had just. They were taking care of his mother, who's elderly. You know, if you got pulled over past the curfew, it would be like €400 a person, which is like a family of four. That's, like one month's income for average solving family, you know, at the time. So it was just really high stakes to. And so we just felt really controlled. So we came to the States for a while and hung out here for a bit, went back to Sylvania, and then just one night a few months later, we were like. Like, this is getting kind of crazy here. Like, we're not, as a family. We're not going to get vaccinated. So let's go home so that we can. Like, I'm pregnant. I had just gotten pregnant. I was like, let's. We just decided at, like, 2am to just move back to the States. And all of a sudden, it felt like God was saying, it's time now. Like, for the first time in six years, I was like, why did I feel like I'm allowed to do this? It was such a shock to me. And it felt, you know me tonight. We love each other. We do fight, like. Like cats and dogs, like, all the time. So the fact that we were, like, even agreeing on this was like, hallelujah. Like, we both felt on the same page. So that night, we bought tickets, and three weeks later, we were here.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:58:04] We had, like, savings, you know, And I said, sarah, you won't be able to see if they shut this all down. They won't let people fly. They're coming out with COVID passports. You can't board. We're not vaccinated.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:58:16] We had to bring our marriage papers and everything to prove that he was my husband. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to come because, like, Americans can always come home, but others can't. So we had to do a lot of paperwork to get him on the plane with us. And it was just a really intense time.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:58:29] I'm still branch president on Zoom. Meetings every Sunday. Right. We do church on Zoom. Home to home. No one's allowed to go to the chapel physically, right? Yeah. So she's pregnant. April 1st, she finds out she's pregnant with the third, and we get this, let's say, revelation about, like, leaving and going back and said, sarah, is your whole family. I don't know when you're gonna see them.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:58:54] Yeah. So that was April 15th, and then by May 7th, we were here so it was like life decision. Three weeks, we left everything.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:59:00] Four suitcases.

John Dehlin [01:59:01] How are you gonna make. Who's gonna make ends meet? Who's gonna be.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:59:04] It's faith.

John Dehlin [01:59:06] Uh huh.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:59:07] Like really, it seems so silly, but that's really what we did. And I mean everything did work out. And honestly there were miracles along the way that helped me us, like we got connected with a doctor who did my whole, all my appointments and delivery like pro bono. Oh, I didn't even know him.

John Dehlin [01:59:21] That's amazing.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [01:59:22] It was like incredible job in construction.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:59:24] Right away, like, seriously, the heavens were open for us to like make this happen. Like, and we felt it was just more confirmation we're supposed to come home.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:31] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [01:59:32] And I do think we needed to come to the States and to have these experiences, but I did not expect what experiences were waiting for us once we got here. Can I ask a question?

Margi Dehlin [01:59:41] Do you feel like, and it sounds like the pressure cooker environment of being there and all the restrictions and all, did that create, like, did that create the desire to leave you wanting to relieve the pressure or was that just one of many things? I'm just trying to get a sense for the role of all the rules, all the restrictions, all that pressure at that time and you seeking like some way to like release it and that at that point.

John Dehlin [02:00:21] To reduce the pressure.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:22] To reduce the pressure, yeah. Because here, you know, the vaccination thing, there's a bit more freedom about that. Right. There's a culture around it, but there's also a counterculture. So I'm just curious to get a sense for the entire intensity of that experience. And if what made you feel much more open and like, let's do it, let's just do it. Is this sense of like, wow, it's, it's difficult to live first.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:00:47] It was my concern, like, that was straight, like Sarah won't see her family because otherwise we would probably like find a way to travel like, you know, and go and visit them. Right. But we were just back from the trip, but then the whole situation was so, so uncertain. Right. I see this, this church, like the church puts a crack with this pushing on this vaccine. Right. I'm here, I'm the branch president. I don't agree with this. It's, it's, it smells, you know, we're restricted like because of COVID going on, you know, so like, what do we do? Let's just grab our bags and let's just go.

John Dehlin [02:01:20] But I think Marty is wondering if you were trying to escape the intensity of church commitments.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:01:26] No, I don't believe that was it at all. No, that's not what I was asking.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:30] I was asking about COVID Yeah, just life incident as another layer, adding a lot of restrictions, complications, if that. Actually, I feel like it was really

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:01:40] just specifically, we don't know if we can get on a plane again and go home. It was to me that was just it. You might not be able to see your family again if we don't go now.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:01:50] And I couldn't work anymore. Like we were locked at home. We had a beautiful.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:01:54] I was. I was. Was working online the whole time. He lost his judo stuff overnight. So it was on me to provide. And it was. It was like, I feel like between me, like from the time I got married to that moment six years later, the pressures of everything, it just became normal to me to live in that pressure. I didn't even recognize that I was living under that. I just accepted it as it was. It was simply. I might not see my family again. And I. I feel like all of a sudden it. God is saying this is the time to go. Cuz otherwise we had a really comfortable life there.

John Dehlin [02:02:27] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:02:27] You know, And I was like there would never be a big push for us to leave. And I felt like this was out of the blue.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:02:34] Like I didn't think I'd go back to America for a couple more years cuz we had just gone back. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:37] It was a Covid move. It was a co.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:02:39] It was like full on, like you might not see your family. So go and just everything will work out. And. And it did.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:02:44] But we're not going to Tanzania, you know.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] Tanzania.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:02:46] Tanzania, right. We're going to Utah where Sarah's from. Her family's here.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:02:52] So we're still all church members.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:02:53] We go all back to my American life, like. And there was a relief thinking, okay, now I am relieved of all the pressure as a consequence of this decision, but it wasn't the reason for the decision, if that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:05] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:03:05] Thanks for explaining, but yeah, that's a good question. I never honestly even thought about it.

Moving to Utah and Growing Disillusionment

John Dehlin [02:03:09] Okay, so what was the status of your testimonies or Mormon testimonies when you moved back to Utah?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:03:17] I didn't like the president of the church, but I was just waiting for him to pass on.

John Dehlin [02:03:22] So you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:03:23] I was just kind of going to ignore the whole thing.

John Dehlin [02:03:25] Was this Monson or Nelson?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:03:27] No, Nelson. He had just become president.

John Dehlin [02:03:29] So Nelson promoting vaccines at the time made you question, made you feel not so great about him as the prophet.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:03:38] That was an added Thing. But if we rewound, like when he became president, which was either the previous April.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:03:46] Yes.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:03:47] He was my favorite apostle. So I was so excited that he was going to be prophet. And so for the Relief Society, like birthday in March or whatever it is, I was recited president. So I organized a nationwide, like activity to honor him. So I created this 21 day challenge. And it was 21 talks. One talk a day from President Nelson throughout his, like whole apostleship.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] You loved him.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:04:11] I loved him. And I was promoting him like he's never been promoted. And so we had this whole thing. We had games about him, trivia, we had all these ladies reading all the talks. They all loved him. Like, I was just getting everyone ready to sustain him at conference. And then conference happened the next month and I was so excited to finally watch his talk. And as soon as he started talking about his late wife. Why am I forgetting her name? Because I love her.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] Whatever.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:04:36] I can't believe I'm forgetting.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] I don't even know it because I love her. His former wife.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:04:40] I remember that's the talk he gave the year she passed away was when I like fell in love with him because I loved the way he honored her, you know, and she was just. I loved their love story. And so then he's talking about her and then also he switches and he goes, but you know, I'll never forget, like, I love my wife so much. He's like, but then the Lord brought in Wendy and I was like. And I was like, please just say you got married but not sealed. I was always so worried that they had gotten sealed. And then he admits to the whole world that he didn't get sealed because Celie meant what I wanted to turn the TV off. I, like, I turned it off. I said, I can't listen to anymore. He just told the whole world that he's a polygamist. But it's like so sugar coated because it's a love story. And I'm like, did you ask your wife? Wasn't her name Dancel or something? Dancel?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:05:27] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:05:27] I'm like, what does she have to say about this with her nine children that she raised while you were gone all those years? I mean, I just get really defensive over women and mothers who are like, left all the time in the name of church service, you know? And I'm like, so now he's gonna get this other chick, like, at the end of their life. I'm like, this is the worst love story ever. And so I'm just like, I couldn't get over. So from that time, because, I mean, yes, I grew up loving the church. Polygamy was always the thing that was like, I can't think. I can't. I can't handle it. I can't justify it. It's just been big. My late twenties. There was a time, six months, where I, like, read Doctrine Covenants, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't open that book ever again. 123, you know, I was like, no, I can't. So that was one thing that was in me deep. And so when that came out, when he became president, I couldn't see past. I talked to missionaries, like, senior couples. I talked to the mission president, like, the mission president's wife. I did all the research. It was just. I was sick about it. So this Covid thing was just, like, another. I'm like, dude, this guy is just like, I can't. I'm not loving him anymore. And it broke my heart. Cause I loved him so much. Right.

John Dehlin [02:06:33] Cause in the rest of the world, widows and widowers get remarried all the time. But in the Mormon context, getting sealed to a second wife means it's polygamy. It's eternal polygamy.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:06:43] So don't tell me that it's not a thing anymore. You know? And I'm all for companionship, like, get married again. You know, like, yeah, one of his size. I hope that he has a. I. I hope that, you know, like, I'm all for healthy life.

John Dehlin [02:06:54] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:06:54] But I'm like, that's a slap in the face to your wife, who has nowhere to. So don't even talk to me about Sarah's law and all this stuff, because she didn't have a say in it, you know? So it was just like. I was so distraught. So the COVID thing was just an extra jab. And I don't even. Honestly, I don't even care if he's, like, promoting the COVID thing. It just bugged me that it was in the video, because I'm like, you're talking about the resurrection of Christmas Christ.

John Dehlin [02:07:14] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:07:14] Why are you getting vaccinated? It has nothing to do with this story.

John Dehlin [02:07:16] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:07:17] It was just weird. So I came to America thinking it's weird, but I'm gonna, like, get past it, because this is still true.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:07:24] Mitia, on the other hand, what was your testimony?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:07:27] I bring the crack from Slovenia. The COVID period. But with me, right? Like, we get here, we got our first place in Pleasant Grove, the most Mormon, like, area ever. Right. Utah County Yes. I mean we're welcomed as rock stars. Like, oh, Slovenia, America, two kids, she's pregnant. I mean, wow. Everyone loves us, right? Taps her backs like.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] And you felt embraced when you absolutely

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:07:53] welcomed, you know, like everyone's, everyone fell

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:07:56] in love with him, you know, you

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:07:57] know, I mean, but the first job I got that lasted like for six months and then I switched over to Sarah's brother in law, he has a construction company as well. He said, why don't you come and work for me? I said, well, you never asked. Of course I would rather work for you. Like it's, I love you. And him and his wife. So Sarah's sister, older sister, they, I don't want to say left church. It's just not, I mean, left.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:08:22] Yeah, they hadn't been active for like

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:08:24] 10 years before and they're a very special couple that I love dearly. And I mean like we spent like a lot of times together, right? Like a lot of time together. But I started working with him and we one of the first jobs up in Park City. Like, I know me and him are like waiting outside. He pulls up the phone and I don't know how we got into a conversation. I'm having these doubts already. I'm asking him questions because I know he's genuine. He loves me and I love him and I take him as he are, as he is. Right. But he's not. His core family, still super Mormon. He's out, but they found a way how to, you know, navigate. Right. But he pulls up like the church portfolio. Portfolio.

John Dehlin [02:09:15] Oh, so this is after the Ensign Peak financial disclosures?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:09:19] No, it was just an article about church owning. Like just the numbers. Right. But could be. Yeah, it was a leak.

John Dehlin [02:09:28] So the hundred plus billion dollars in stock and real estate and bonds.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:09:33] And he asked me mito, have you never seen like I was probably complaining to him or like trying to like ask him something, you know, about financial tidings. I don't know what, maybe it was about COVID and vaccine and you know, and he pulls it, pulls it up like, and I'm scrolling down and the fourth biggest investment was Johnson and Johnson and then it's Merck and then it's all big pharma. And I'm like, I mean the world like the, I don't know how to explain that. Like I like everything. Like the house of cards just came down.

John Dehlin [02:10:02] So the Mormon Church having billions of investments in big pharma made you think what?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:10:11] I mean this is it.

John Dehlin [02:10:13] What's wrong with that?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:10:14] Like what's wrong with that?

John Dehlin [02:10:16] No, no, no. Spell it out for people who have no idea why that would be a problem.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:10:19] So I'm taking money from this couple with a handicapped child. Child. Then it's like a new wheelchair. I'm there.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:10:27] Tithing.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:10:28] Tithing. Right. Like I'm doing the settlements in Slovenia. Not feeling good already.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:10:33] Back in Slovenia. But I'm. I'm shutting it down because it, you know. Oh, I'm the one in the position. I. I'm the leader.

John Dehlin [02:10:41] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:10:42] But now seeing this, it's just like, well, that's the fact. But was it.

John Dehlin [02:10:47] Why was the church's wealth a problem for you, having been a branch president?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:10:52] Because I'm reading Jesus, I'm following Jesus. And Jesus had sell everything. Right. And follow me. Like, it's about the poor people. I thought we're helping the poor people, but you're stalking. Like, I mean, I just couldn't comprehend. I still cannot today. And I'm like tingling right now.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] Instead of investing, instead of the Church taking its wealth. Wealth. And using it to help the poor.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:11:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:11:18] It's investing in Fortune 500 companies.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:11:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:11:21] And big pharma that you associate with the vaccines, which you weren't feeling good about, of course.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:11:28] And then Nelson, he's a doctor, he's a surgeon. This is a medical field. It all makes sense. It's like, you know, the dots are being connected. Right. Like, it was so heavy on me that, like I said, I, like, I can't give a cent anymore. Like, to this. Like, this is. So I come home.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:11:45] Yeah. So that was the next issue.

John Dehlin [02:11:48] This is three years ago. Three or about three years ago.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:11:53] We'd been in the States for about six months and I was stressing out because we hadn't paid our tithing yet from Slovenia. Because I was like, we're getting jobs, we're trying to get a doctor. You know, all this stuff. And I'm like, we need to pay, we need to pay. And he's like, we'll just wait. We'll pay it later. And then. Yeah, I'm very. Again, I was. Letter of the lost Sarah at this point. So he gets the big, like the portfolio and connects the dots of like, okay, this money is actually going to what I'm against. I'm not gonna pay anymore. And so I.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] It's also worth mentioning to never Mormons that we're talking about Google, Ensign Peak, the Mormon church had this 150 billion plus investment fund called Ensign Peak. Real estate, stocks, bonds, cash, all of it, just stock alone, worth over more than 100 billion. And all this was kept from Mormons and from never Mormons for decades. Until a whistleblower named David Nielsen, who had worked for Ensign Peak along with his brother Lars, this information got leaked to the general public also as part of an IRS complaint about IRS fraud or the allegations of IRS fraud. So it wasn't until 5, 10 years ago that all of us learned this. So it wasn't just how wealthy the church was. It was the fact that they had been hiding its wealth while giving general conference talks saying, if you have to choose between, between food and tithing, pay your tithing. If you have to choose between having shoes or not having shoes and paying your tithing, pay your tithing. General authorities have said that in third world developing countries for decades. So it's not just the wealth, it's the non disclosure, it's the lack of transparency. Okay, sorry. Just want to make that clear.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:13:49] And I would also add on just another cultural difference. Me is coming from a country that's not a world of like, you know, capital. I mean, is a capitalist, like that is their, you know, form now. But growing up, it wasn't like, you know, chasing money. You know, everyone was very content with what they had. So to see that kind of money coming from his. I feel like in America it's like, oh yeah, investments, that's all just like ABCs, you know, it's like not that big of a deal. Like, of course it's a business. Of course they're going to invest and have money and be profitable. And like that's looked at as a positive thing from some members of the church. Like they're so proud of how much money, the, how well the church has invested money, you know, so someone from a country that's, I would say, very different from America doesn't see that as like a strength, you know, it's like it has nothing to do with religion. There's nothing to do with what Jesus is teaching. It's right. Not just like religiously, but even his culture is just so.

John Dehlin [02:14:42] So Slovenia is less capitalistic, less wealthy, health, less consumer oriented. Is that fair to say?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:14:49] They're growing?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:14:49] But yeah, but you can't go against the trend. You know, like, we want to be west. We escape the, the Eastern bloc. Right. Finally, we are independent. We want to grow. You want to have your business, you want to have a residual income, right? Like it's, that's why I'm building like a plan B. You know, you want all of that, but to what extent? Yeah, yeah, what, like, what are the priorities? Because here I feel like it's just like, we always start with money here.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:13] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:15:13] And that's it. Oh, is it any financial benefit? Okay, then let's do it. Is it not?

John Dehlin [02:15:18] So let's move to the next.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:15:20] Progress in America is. Financial progress in Slovenia is like, wellness.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:25] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:15:25] You know what I mean? And so even though Slovenia is now capital and, like, they want to have open business and everything, their roots are very much not, like, you know, obsession with this financial. Yeah, exactly.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:15:40] Going back to very church. If I saw that portfolio, and I would know the church is transparent and it's out. These numbers are out at the general conference, whatever. Right. Like, okay, they're transparent. Like, where is this money going? Questions will start popping up. Right. Of course I'm paying tithing if I know that a village will be built up, like, in Africa, wherever, you know, like, water will be. And they're doing, to an extent. Right. Like, I mean, I'm not saying church is not doing, like.

John Dehlin [02:16:11] But weirdly, the water was very small until Ensign Peak and the church was shamed for its massive accumulation of wealth. It's only then that the church went from, like, 40 million a year in, you know, charitable donations to where it's now claiming a billion. And that number's still suspect. Yes, but it took the church, the Mormon Church, being shamed in public for its mass accumulation of wealth and for its hiding of wealth for the church to take, you know, charitable donations seriously. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:16:47] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:16:47] Yeah. So whatever we earn as church, churches have $0 at the end of the month. That's how I saw it.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:54] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:16:55] Get all the money. Get it all out. You're not supposed to have, like, any dollars in your account. This. This is a. This is Christ.

John Dehlin [02:17:01] Not hedge funds. No, hedge funds were not in your.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:17:05] No, not shell. Yeah. Like, I mean, shell companies. I mean, what is this? Right. Like, so that. That's a big kick into my, like, testimony. Right. Like, it's just starting there, like, really heavily. Right. Like, to break. Right. And I'm bringing that home. And then, of course, it goes to police. It goes to this, to that. I see the uniformality of the church here. You know, it's more important how you look than what you bring to the table. Then you know, it's fake smiles. Like, it's. Everyone's nice, but they're not real.

Culture Shock and Financial Tensions in Utah

John Dehlin [02:17:35] We talked about the culture shock for Shara, for Sarah going to Slovenia. What was the culture shock for you coming to Utah?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:17:42] Absolutely. Just being an observer. Right. Believing in people because These are my brother and sister. Like, these are the leaders. I know how things go. We're hearing you. Everyone's welcoming us. You know, there's a dinner. They want dinner here. Like, they're invited. You know, everyone's so nice, but me starting to break on the other side with all of the facts being, you know, brought up. And like, I have my brother in law now, like, on the, you know, and I know he's a good man, like, and he's, he was raised in the religion, but he's not. Why are you not a member anymore? So I keep engaging in the, you know, because I don't have that back home. It's a small community. We just build each other up for two hours and go home and, you know, we're the most important people on the planet. We're going to save this planet by being Mormons, right? I come here, everyone's Mormon. You know, everyone looks perfect. It can't be. It's like Truman show, right? And then the portfolio and then. Why can I never talk to Sarah about polygamy? Because I was never taught anything. But whenever I brought it up and it was brought up by a third person and Sarah is like starting to shake and I'm like, why? Right? Oh, I can't. Like, you know, and then like, wow, don't we have the whole truth? I mean, I don't know. I didn't study it. How naive, right? Like, if you just go like, I never studied polygamy. I never studied the history. I just took it like, it's a, it's a. It's a book we're learning. Like, I mean, it's, it was, it became so toxic that after I stopped paying the tithing, right. What happened? I couldn't go. I couldn't go physically anymore. It started building up. I'm, I'm, I'm hearing the talks from the pulpit about where would we be without Brigham Young and praising him and this and that. And I'm reading back home. I'm like, into Mormon stories. I'm like, finally, like, you know, I see Paul Cardall's like, journey, you know, and I'm like, all of that together. Wow. This is not it. What it was presented to me like, it's.

John Dehlin [02:19:46] You were connected to Paul Cardall's Mormon Story podcast episode because he married someone from Slovenia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:19:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:19:54] And we had you known her?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:19:56] Yeah, we happened to meet. Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:19:58] Like, you know, know her previously. We knew her family before.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:20:01] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:20:01] Her Slovenian family we were friends with. So we kind of had. When Paul Cardell came to Slovenia to visit her family.

John Dehlin [02:20:08] He's a famous Mormon piano player.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:20:10] He put on a show for the church in combination with, like, the hospital, you know, children's hearts. You know, he had a heart transplant. So anyways, we. He knew that Mitia was friends with his extended family. He actually invited us to come share the Book of Mormon message with. With Tina, his wife's family.

John Dehlin [02:20:28] So then you come here, Mithia, and you learn that Paul's left the church.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:20:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:33] And you're wondering why.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:20:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:35] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:20:35] And all this coming up, it just results in, you know, in the whole piece being taken away. So I'm not the same Mithya anymore. I go to church, but I'm, like, trembling. Like, I can't. Because I know that that talk is not based on facts. It's just, like a romantic story of, you know, of the religion. Like, you know, but I'm reading facts at home, and I listen. I start listening to Mormon stories. I start seeing other people, like, you know, and it just came down to a point that I couldn't go physically anymore.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:21:09] Well, I don't think you had been for a long time at that point of the Brigham Young one.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:21:14] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:21:14] Like, so we. We got here in May 2021. By that December, we had tithing settlement. The bishop was like. We went in for it, and he was like, so I don't know, are these numbers right? Because it was a really low amount because I. Even behind me, his back, like, I was like, we need the blessings. I'm gonna pay our tithing. So I paid, like, months of tithing. At one point, without telling him, I was like, he's not doing it. I'm gonna do it.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:21:36] I was never settled, and he was

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:21:37] so mad at me that I would take that much money.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] That could be five or ten grand. You pay all at one time, right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:21:42] Yeah. And so but for that to be a year thing, the bishop was like, yeah, especially when we're getting started having a baby. No insurance, nothing. And he's just barely getting, you know, getting into construction jobs. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:21:53] We needed 17 hours.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:21:54] Those thousands of dollars. We needed that, you know? But I'm like, but we need the blessings, Mitia. We're having a baby here. And he's like, we are blessed there. What are you talking about? And so as we get to the tithing settlement, and the guy's like, so is there, like, a mistake? And Mitja's like, oh, like, not really. Just saying, I. I am not paying. And I finally said, he's not paying. There's no excuse. Like, there's no mistake in the computers or somebody's in Sylvania. Like, no, he's just not paying tithing. And, like, I was so I was in that phase of I'm mad and I'm not okay with Mitya choosing to not pay. I was not okay even though I had the income.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:22:29] She depends on me.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:22:30] Well, this is the thing. So in my personal life as a kid, my parents did get divorced, and my dad did leave the church. And I didn't understand it at the time, but I thought, okay, when someone leaves the church, divorce happens. And so I got really scared of, like, I know where this is going. He stops paying his tithing. It's done. Like, he's not here anymore.

John Dehlin [02:22:54] You were determined that your family, your marriage wouldn't end like your parents.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:22:58] Yeah. And so I was like, I have to make sure that this works, so I'm going to pay the tithing to make sure that we don't lose the blessings. And I need to, like, be really strong with him and keep him in. But then after that tithing settlement, something, like, hit me, and I was like, you know what?

John Dehlin [02:23:10] Because you were kind of siding with the bishop against your husband.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:23:13] Yeah, I was totally.

John Dehlin [02:23:14] How'd that feel for you, Mithya?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:23:15] I don't think he freaking cared.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:23:17] I didn't care because I saw the portfolio. You know, I finally know the truth.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:22] But in your mind, it was horrible. You were trying to save your marriage.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:23:25] Yeah. And just so you know, I had had a baby at the beginning of December, so I had a newborn baby. I had postpartum depression. It was just. Just a lot. I was seeing this unravel. I was so scared. And after about two weeks, I was like, you know what? I'm not going to repeat anything that's happened in my family before. He can. That's. Whatever he does is between him and God. I will just be the good Mormon girl I've always been and just do what I've always been taught, which is to be an example. And I was like, so I'm just going to think under the bus in

John Dehlin [02:23:53] front of the bishop.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:23:54] Yeah. Well, after. It was. After that was. Speaks. After that, when I was like, okay, that wasn't the right way to go. But as soon as I was like, okay, Sarah, what do you believe? And then do it, that's when I. I think the fact that he kind of stepped away and broke the ideal image of the eternal family temple, everything, it kind of gave me, like, a safe place to be brutally Honest with myself. And that's when all the polygamy stuff came back to me, and that connected it to tithing or not tithing to the temple, because I don't know, I just felt like, if I don't do this, we're not worthy of blessings if I don't. And so I was like, wow, if I don't. Something about it just took me straight to temple. And that was my first pillar that fell. And it was so ironic because me, too, was on his path, going more like finances of the church, administration, how they're dealing with the church office, and then church history, doctrine. And mine was like, wow, this is so manipulative that I thought I was living my whole life on faith, but it's really been on a river of fear, you know, that, like, if I don't do these things, I won't be worthy. If I don't do these things, if I don't wear my garments when I'm pregnant, my baby's gonna get hurt inside of my body. Like, I was so obsessive, like, OCD crazy on it for years. I was so scared. And I realized, wow, do I have any worth at all without any of this? So it was crazy that him just stopping paying tithing, like, opened up the floodgates for me. And so the first thing, even though he stopped going to church shortly after that tithing settlement, I kept going on my own a few times, and I would be so brave to even go once without garments on. And just the topics at our society about the temple is the safest place to be, and as long as you're there, then you're good to go. And I was like, what a shallow view of life that, like, this is the extent of our progression is just to be able to make it to the temple. But here I am simply by not wearing garments, I'm not allowed to go. Simply by us not paying tithing. I'm no longer. So I've already failed. And I was just like. And that was the last time I could go. And I was like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. Then we went again in July was pioneer. So, like, six months later, seven months later, it was pioneer month. And that's when he heard the Brigham Young thing. And then by Christmas the next year, we went again for our daughter's primary thing. And that's when he saw, like, them whispering in the ears. And it was just, like, programming the children to say things.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:26:13] And so I'm not going to church, but I'm Doing my most research than ever before. The real church, what the church is indeed. I'm doing all of that while working, grinding the, you know, the concrete every day podcast. So I'm plugged in. I'm like, wow, wow, wow. Like, it's just hitting me every day. And I come home and say, sarah, did you hear that? Did you know that? You know what I just heard today? What about this? Hey, you gotta listen to this Mormon story. And Sarah just kind of, you know, she did from time to time, kind of took, you know, partake of that, but, like, she wanted to keep it her own journey. And I felt I need to give that to her. I shouldn't be too pushy because I experienced it my way, and now I know that I don't know how she grew up emotionally like I was. I mean, what was our marriage for six years. And we went way better along than we're going now, because now everything's to the surface. Church is gone and you're exposed. Like, you can't hide in a pew. Like, you can't hide behind a calling. It's Sarah and Mitya. But at that point, it's like, okay, Sarah, I'm sorry. I have my own way to go. And I leave you time and space to do your own thing. I don't know where this will end. I love you. You're an amazing wife, an amazing mother. Our kids are the best in the world. But, you know, I have to do this journey by myself.

John Dehlin [02:27:53] I can't imagine what it would be like to be born in one country and then missionaries from a totally different country come to my country, convert me to a total change of worldview and perspective. I dedicate six, eight years of my life to building up that church. Then I move back to the mother country, not my own, where that church is from, to the center of that church, and then discover that everything I was taught was a lie. I was misled, that it was a fraud, that the church was corrupt, and I had based not just my life and six or eight years of service, but my marriage was built on it. The kids were all connected to it. And now I'm living in not just the country of that church, but like the headquarters of that church. It's kind of like going to Oz and then just discovering the wizard is fake.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:28:54] Absolutely.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:28:54] That's actually a really triggering movie. It's a really triggering movie. Now I watch it, I'm like.

John Dehlin [02:29:01] But I mean, that's a. What was that like for you, Mitcha?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:29:04] Yeah, I lost everything. Like, I Lost my piece, like, all of a sudden, like, you know, and they released me. Like, after we got here, I was still a president, you know, back Burch president, doing the zoom or whatever, you know, they finally released me then, you know, there's not many people there that can jump in the shoe, you know, but it was just the level of uncertainty that I could never expect. I know I'm a good person. I know I love people. I know I'm not fake, but someone's been playing with me for the last 15 years. Why did I join the church? I wanted to follow Jesus. And I'm still with Christ in every aspect that I know how to be. They know how to feel and connect with the golden rule and, you know, like, love your neighbor. That's all I was before Mormonism, but now they. I became a part of a corporation starting to do this and this and this. Go by the letter of the law. You know, the spirit is kind of of, you know, disappearing. You have a tie on, but you're not. You don't feel happy. Like it's not. But then running into these facts here, it's just like, it just exploded. It just, you know, I said, no, I'm not participating in this anymore. I can't. So I stopped going for a year, right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:30:32] You were gone for a while.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:30:33] For a while. Whatever. I couldn't physically be there because I would stand up and, like, just leave out. Like, I could. I could. I knew I knew the truth. I knew I had more truth than everyone in there. Right? Just factual. And then I come somehow, like, I just wake up on the state conference. I finally went. State conference.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:30:54] Well, you kind of. You had decided before that you're like, you know what? I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna go oppose because I'm still a member. And I don't agree.

John Dehlin [02:31:02] I mean, I wanted to slow down on this part because, you know, you ended up speaking up. And we're gonna get to that, but I wanna really make sure people understand why you felt so passionately. And the trick, the part that's always difficult for me in these situations is, you know, you told us at the very beginning of your story that you reached a point in your life where you were feeling kind of lost. Like, judo's not gonna take me where I wanna go. I want to have a family. I want to be good. I don't want to live this bar club life. I want to find a wife and start a family and have kids and have a sense of meaning and purpose and Spirituality and something worthy to give my life to. And I want the truth like the true gospel. And as far as you knew, you found it, and then you gave your life to it. It for 15 years, moved to the country of its origin, to the center of the church geographically. And then you learned that it's. You had been lied to.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:12] And you had given 15. Built. Given 15 years of your life and dedicated your entire 15 years of your life.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:32:20] To this way that then you discover wasn't at all what it claimed.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:32:25] Absolutely. So one important thing is, before I went into action, what kicked me into the action of, like, calling out the leadership openly. Right. Publicly. I started talking to my friends from the ward. So a newly called bishop is our family friend. We're hanging out, like, grilling in their yard. Kids know each other like, we are friends. Like, they. I'm a benefit to their life, they're benefit to mine. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:32:55] Close friends.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:32:56] Yeah. Double day. Close friend becomes bishop becomes bishop in that period. And I think, like, man, like, whom shall I go to if not you?

John Dehlin [02:33:09] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:33:09] So I call him to go on a walk. And it was like, former elder, president's quorum, president of the elders quorum that I went on a walk to. And I started asking questions to the. To the world leaders. Said, man, have you heard about this? Do you know this? What's going on with this? What about polygamy? What about the finances? What about the vaccine? Like, oh, put it on the shelf. God knows it all. We are, you know, we don't know everything. You know, we're here to believe, but not know everything. But then I'm like, but why do you testify on Sunday that you know it? Then if you say you know it, you don't have to believe anymore. You have the full knowledge of everything. But I know that you don't, because you can't. It's just a human being. So I started addressing this to the very. To the very closest people that I've built a relationship with inside the ward. And they're amazing families with kids. They're doing their best. I know they're giving everything. They're good people. But, like, why. Why does that not go hand in hand? Being a good people and being open and concerned about my belief now? Because they see me probably as moving, like, detouring. Right. And they just, like, don't talk to me. And I felt like, why are you not talking to me? Aren't we friends? Like, are you not, like, concerned about me leaving or whatever? Right. So it never Came to a point that I really felt welcomed. Like opening up more, whatever. Right.

John Dehlin [02:34:49] Just for our never Mormons and our newly questioning Mormons. One of the bizarre things about that point in your story is that at that point in your story, when you started learning all these truths about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, polygamy, church finances, you knew more than 98% of the active Mormons in the world, in the world about their own church. Even if they're six or eight generation pioneer Mormons. The truth about the church has been so carefully withheld from the membership that part of the reason why they didn't want to talk to you is because you had learned stuff they didn't know. And they were terrified to learn things about their own church that some convert from Slovenia was, was teaching them or wanting to discuss with them and they couldn't handle it. Absolutely right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:35:43] And that was another trigger to me because I'm like, how can you, how can you not even talk to me just openly as buddy to buddy.

John Dehlin [02:35:52] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:35:53] About things that are concerning me, you know?

John Dehlin [02:35:55] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:35:56] To me it was all so taboo.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:35:58] But then you can be at a pulpit, like looking like a perfect member and giving testimony about what you know. You can talk privately to me, like, what's going on? Are you just nice? Are you being real? Oh, you're afraid. Your testimony is built on fear, not faith.

John Dehlin [02:36:18] And ignorance.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:36:20] And ignorance, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:21] Because they don't. They know. Because they don't know.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:36:23] Wanting to know.

John Dehlin [02:36:24] Right. So they know it's true because they don't know the facts.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:36:28] But from the pulpit you're saying, I

John Dehlin [02:36:30] know, but you actually don't want to know.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:36:33] But I'm the one that wants to know and get stopped.

John Dehlin [02:36:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara's Personal Faith Crisis and Garment Experience

Margi Dehlin [02:36:37] I wanted to take a minute and come back to you, Sarah, and your story in particular and how you're feeling during this time. Because I feel like you have given yourself wholly to this journey too. And even after having this time that you describe as like freedom and self exploration and feeling yourself again, you buckle down. You buckle down, you know?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:37:05] Yeah. Because the conveyor belt came for my time to get married.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:08] That's right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:37:09] You can't miss that one. You gotta jump on.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:12] Do you wanna talk about your feelings during this time where you're confronting some of these things and what it means, what it feels like to be you?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:37:22] Yeah. Thank you. It was a very stressful time. Very liberating, but completely heart crushing everything all at once. I mean, like I said from the tithing settlement on, I kind of surrendered me to do his thing. And I was like, it's not going to affect our marriage. We're going to be okay and we can respect each other in our own spaces. But like I said, everything came down on me of like, what is my worst? Just as Sarah.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:46] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:37:46] Like, why am I building so much up and I'm realizing none of it? Am I so conditionally loved? And I realized, okay, I'm gonna like,

John Dehlin [02:37:54] experiment a little bit by conditionally loved by who?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:37:57] God?

John Dehlin [02:37:58] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:38:00] Because like I said, I had just had a baby, my third one. And not to make anyone feel uncomfortable, but after the baby, you are nursing a lot and you're home a lot and you're just not wearing clothes what you normally do. You're just home in like, whatever is easiest to nurse in. Right. So garments, especially coming out of delivery, they're just not part of your life right now just as you're recovering, Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:38:21] That's right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:38:22] And so it was getting time for me to, like, get back into my normal clothes and be outside of the house again. And it was like something was stopping me from putting my garments back on consciously, you know, And I was like, well, maybe I should experiment with that a little bit. And that was a huge awakening to me of like, wow. Like I said, I had faith in Christ this whole time, but I really just had faith in me being perfect and wearing garments. And so when I started to experiment with not wearing them, first it was like, okay, I'll just not wear them at home, but when I go out, I'll wear them. And then it was like, okay, if I go out, I'll only wear them if I'm going to see family. And then I eventually had the courage after like six months, to finally go out in front of family and not wear garments, but still wear garment worthy clothing. And then after like, I don't know, however many months after that, it was like, okay, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna wear things that are clearly not garment worthy. And that was insane to me. It hit me so strong. I'm like, why am I putting so much mental emphasis? Like, it takes me hours to have the courage to go out in a tank top and shorts. That is so weird that that is what I'm struggling with. And it was such an. I realized how controlled I had been and how like, I mean, just all the gaslighting, the manipulation, the way of teaching something in a nice way, but really it's teaching you that you're not good. Like, all of this was hitting me so strong, so like, he was listening to all these podcasts, coming home, and I was like, mithya, I can't handle all of this extra stuff. I can't do that. I can see its significance, and I can even agree with it, but I don't even want to touch it. I am so deep in my own personal, like, my emotional, like, abuse that I've received and my low. So, like, completely off. I was just in my own world. I said, you know, I just wanted to know, like, am I going to be protected as Sarah without garments anyways? It was just. It was the most liberating, but completely like. And everything fell like, temple, everything.

John Dehlin [02:40:17] And would you be protected without garments in the church?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:40:21] In the church, Yeah. I mean, just.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Or does God abandon you?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:40:24] Does God abandon me? I just had a baby. Like, I felt so vulnerable. I was like, I. I was in. So people would see me without garments, and I could feel them judging me, you know, and. Or the looks or whatever. And then I realized if they could only know that actually, like, because we see it as a sign of, oh, you've lost your faith in God if you're not wearing garments. And I was wanting to scream to them, guys, because I want to keep my faith in Jesus. I'm actually getting rid of my garments because they've been an obstacle. I was chesting in them more than God. Like, God would only save me if I wore the garments. So I actually had faith in the garments more than Jesus. Does that make sense? It was like, I had to get rid of those. They were actually a barrier to my faith. So I was like, I'm not losing my faith. Or, like, faith crisis. Everyone's like, I know it's a faith crisis. And I'm like, no, this is actually, like, liberating. And I'm actually. But then it couldn't come to terms with, like, but the church is still true. So, like, I still had to, like, do this mental gymnastics stuff to make it happen. I did listen to one of Yalls podcasts with the couple, the Madsens and Burgitta Madsen.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:27] Yes.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:41:28] And what country? Northern Europe.

John Dehlin [02:41:29] Sweden.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:41:29] Sweden. And their explanation of their experience with the second anointing. And I was pushing my baby in a stroller around a park for hours listening to that. And after that talk, like, it was when I finally could allow myself to accept that maybe all of this really is not what it is.

John Dehlin [02:41:47] What was problematic about the second anointing specifically to you?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:41:50] It was, like, the audacity that someone could have to promise them eternal glory. While they're still alive. And I thought, even if that was a thing, how disappointing that you would lose the anticipation of the judgment day. I'm like, wouldn't you want that to be God? Why would you want.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:42:10] You're insecure, right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:42:11] It just feels like you can't jump to the finish line before you get to the finish line. You know, it just, Even on a sub, you know, like, superficial level that just seemed so, like anticlimactic. But also in a deeper level, I just was so. It was so disheveling, like, just so unsettling to see, to hear what was actually happening between behind closed doors. And I just, I trusted them so much, their story. I thought, there's no way they're making this up.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:42:36] And also they're high ranking leaders.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:42:38] Yeah. And so anyways, that was just like, that was when it went more. Bigger spectrum of the church. Not just me and my personal little world with my covenants, but that it could maybe be something I thought in the beginning it's just me impersonal. But everything else is still true. Like the Book of Mormon's still true. Everything still stands. But I personally can have a personal relationship with God and I can set the rules between him and I if I feel good about it. Right. It was that podcast that made me feel like everything came down and I was like, whoa.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:04] It was more systemic.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:43:05] That's when like the grieving cycle really started. Because I was like, this is not what I thought. And it's. Is it really all made? Like what? Like it's not possible, you know, it's all made up. Yeah. And so after that, really quick.

John Dehlin [02:43:17] For those who want to learn more about the second anointing, the. The Tom Phillips episode is the best episode for that. We also did with Brian Buchanan a history, the second Anointing in Mormonism. It's a super secret ritual that even today active believing Mormons don't know about unless they follow podcasts like this one. But Hans and Brigitte Matzin also talk about it and it's really only for rich, wealthy, older Mormons who are connected to church leadership. And again, it's an ordinance. It's the most sacred Mormon ordinance that's kept from even Mormons. And it's really disturbing to a lot of people.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:43:56] So.

John Dehlin [02:43:56] So Brooklyn will include in the show notes some links if you want to learn more. Okay, keep going.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:44:02] Yeah. So I mean, and the timeline, I'm trying to keep it short because it was over like a year and a half of this kind of gradually before things really started to erupt with Mitya and the church. So as he's coming home with, like, podcast ideas and everything, I'm like, mithya, honestly, like, when journal conference would come up, I'd say he would want to listen to it, just to, like, hear what they're saying. And I'm saying with different eyes now. I don't want to hear anything, anything for the church from conference, and I don't want to hear anything against the church from podcast. I'm like, I don't want to hear anything. I said, if there's a God and I really am a child of God, then, like, I'm pretty sure we can work it out on my own. I said, I don't want to have another man hand me what to believe anymore, whether it's for or against it. I was so turned off by men's voices anywhere, including Mithya, including

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:44:46] John.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:49] Here's what I'm hearing. Here's what I'm hearing is you are doing the shift as you're deconstructing from that external. We've been taught to, like, listen, especially as women to men, tell us what to do, and then we obey. And you're deconstructing that as you're deconstructing. So you're going internal. You're trying to say, what do I think about this? How do I feel about this? Right. And I also am kind of hearing a lot of overwhelm completely. I have enough on my table. I do not need anything added to this table right now.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:45:23] I had two toddlers, plus a new baby, and I was just, like. I was just drowning in, like, my reality. I just come back home to my family, and then I couldn't be honest with them. What I was feeling. I felt so alone, and I couldn't even talk to Mitya because he was so intense in his way that I didn't feel safe speaking to him about my vulnerabilities with the church because I thought he would only just grab it and run. I'm like, I don't want you to, like, push me more to leave. I want you to just hear me.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:45] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:45:46] You know? And so I said, I don't want to hear anyone. I just wanted to go in nature and just sit there and think, like, if there's a God, I mean, there's creations here. Let's just start with that. There's creation. And that's all I could go with. I said, there's no religion of any kind. And it was so hard to even stop at the church. I had to like cross over to Christianity as a whole and then religions around the world. It was just, it was like, it was. It was so much, you know, And I hate getting into all this because I can't remember exactly at what month this happened, but I know that for a while I did go back to church a little bit on my own sometimes with the kids, and then sometimes just by myself, just to sit and listen, just to kind of hear it. And it just got to a point where I was just like, I can't do this anymore, you know? And so it had been like six months or so since we had a long time since he had been in a while since I had been. But when conference came around, I knew that he wanted to go and oppose at state conference.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:45] He had talked to you about that?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:46:47] Yes, he told me he was very vocal about everything.

John Dehlin [02:46:50] And I said, let's explain the concept of opposing.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:46:53] Yes, Okay. I was going to also just add one more thing because I was trying to remember early and I couldn't. And I do. When I was going through all of this, I said, mitia, I'm not gonna listen to any podcast because I considered it all to be like, anti Mormon, right? And I was like, that's. I'm gonna leave. If I'm gonna leave the church, I'm gonna leave the church on the church's information. So I would go on to the LDS app and read in like the gospel topics about polygamy and about the priesthood with the, you know, racism and all this stuff. And just even reading that, I was like, like, I am so disgusted and ashamed to be associated with this church for how that was written now. I mean, if you just go and read gospel topics on those two topics, it was like, I don't want to be. I was embarrassed to be part of this church. And so that's what gave me the permission in my mind to listen to a podcast of you guys. Because I was like, okay, I've at least explored church material and that's offensive enough, you know, I can now go and listen to a podcast. And that's when Hans and Yes BR were on. And that really opened up the door for me altogether. But even then it was like, that's when I just shut everyone out. And I said, I don't want to talk to anyone about it. I just go do my own thing. Then we fast forward for a few. Yeah, but all through those months, Mitia is trying to talk to me and I'm just like, please. Cuz he'll post Things, you know, And I'm like, you're embarrassing us. Like, you're being so vocal. Like, just, I don't care what you believe, but just stop talking about it.

John Dehlin [02:48:20] So you started posting stuff on the Internet?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:48:22] Yeah, I also watched the movie, the. About Joseph's death. Like, Justin.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:48:29] Oh, I forgot.

John Dehlin [02:48:30] About who killed Joseph Smith.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:48:31] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:32] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:48:32] Yes.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:48:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:33] The conspiracy theory that there was an insider job.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:48:36] Absolutely, all of those things.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:48:37] And it's like it made, I mean, I don't know the people, but it made a lot of sense. Like, why wouldn't that be able to happen? We don't know, you know, hear about this succession story, right? Like, I mean, the history, right? How did that get handled over from Joseph to Brigham, right? Like, there's no hands being laid on head, nothing. You know, all of this, it's just everything is out there. Like, you can't even follow it. Like, you're all, yeah, right? So I'm like, wow. Like, I know this is not the real thing, what I was doing for 15 years, but what is it it then? So where am I now?

Margi Dehlin [02:49:16] That's right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:49:17] Right. Christ, is it okay if I stay with you only and find you in ways that I feel are close and are righteous? And so I started hiking and Sarah went to church. I, I, you know, I hiked. All that was such, like.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:49:32] But that was hard for me too, because Sundays used to be our day. And then it became him hiking for like eight to 10 hours, getting lost, almost getting lost.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:49:40] And I was home with the kids.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:49:41] I'm like, awesome. Now I'm just another day at home by myself, handling everything. And he's just off talking to God up in the mountains. I was so bitter, and I was. Because I was mourning.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:49:52] Like, I survived. This mountain saved me. This hike saved my, like, marriage probably to a part, like my survival in religious fear. Like, you know, redefining. I said Christ sat on the rock and looked down at the. The Jerusalem and said, oh, Jerusalem. And I'm looking down at this valley and saying, who are these people in these houses? They're trying to pretend they know everything, you know, they're so righteous. But it's not true. I'm up here, I'm free. Like, I'm looking at a goat. Like, it's like, you know, can I not be with Christ still? Can I not follow him with all of that machinery? Yes, I can. Like, it just expanded the picture. And that's when I started thinking about broader Christianity, right? Like, came out of the corner. This is not true. It didn't hit me as much because I wasn't raised in it. So, okay, it's 15 years. Look what I got. I got Sarah three wonderful kids. It's a beautiful story. It's painful, but it has to be, like, to progress, you know, Like, I'm mad, but I'm not so mad anymore because, like, I have to look at the benefits and the blessings. Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:04] But I hear what you're saying.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:51:05] I wasn't happy about it. He thinks it was helping our marriage.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:51:07] Well, I was still mad at that point.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:09] Well, what I'm hearing is that for you, you're still very much entrenched in the everyday, doing all the things you have. Three kids, you have. So as you're saying, you're going and having mountains, which is good for your mental health, for your processing, and you're trying to. To figure it all out. But on top of all this daily work and keeping things going, which is a very different experience. And in the end, you're both likely feeling quite lonely, quite isolated. That's right. Spaces where what you're going through is painful. Right. But to go through it alone and feel isolated and disconnected from the person that you ideally would be sharing it with, that's a whole other level.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:52:00] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:52:01] It's not a joint path anymore. And I'm starting to be worried because I want my wife, but I can make her deconstruct the way I'm doing it. She doesn't have time. She doesn't have seven, eight hours of listening to podcasts. I gotta let her do it herself.

John Dehlin [02:52:18] Everyone's gotta do that journey alone.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:19] Yes.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:52:20] But even if I had time, it was like, I didn't even want to do it that way. I wanted the whole world to just be quiet for once.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:26] Have this space.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:52:27] Yeah, just be quiet.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:52:29] And then I want to use the megaphone and, like, scream it out, Right. What is going on?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:52:34] Do you know? That was stressing me out. I'm like, just have your thoughts. Keep it to yourself, dude. Like, stop being a vocal.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:40] This reminds me of oftentimes what happens when someone experiences, like, the death of a child or the death of a. That the process of how we process and grieve experiences. Oftentimes they find that partnerships will end then because it looks so different. And that chasm that is created during that time, of how one deals with incredible grief, incredible pain. It looks so different. It reminds me of that standing next

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:53:17] to her ten years ago, about to get married, and my brother got the authority handed over to marry us. You know, his brother Married us, actually, civilly. Civilly, Right. Like, and he's standing there, and I'm like, wow, me, Sarah and Christ. How could that be a failure?

Margi Dehlin [02:53:38] How could it go wrong?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:53:39] I am so happy. I am so in love. Like, I am complete. I am accomplished right now. In this moment. Sarah felt a little different, but that's for another day, you know, whatever.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:53:50] Well, just to clarify, I know in the church, if we say we got married civilly, it means that we were not obeying the rules while we were recording. And it's just the law in Europe that you cannot get married in a religious building first. So by law, we got civilly. We had to get married civilly, which gave me the fairytale wedding that no Mormon girl gets. I got to walk down this aisle of a castle. You know what I mean? So, absolutely. It was great. And then the next day, we got married in the temple. And that was. Honestly, we don't need to get into it, but it was a very stressful day, and I hated it. So, yeah, I got to do it. Yeah, it was like a panic attack, but back to where we were.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:54:26] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:54:27] Do you want us to get into him going.

Publicly Voting Opposed at Church Meetings

John Dehlin [02:54:29] So the next step is. Okay, so let's explain what sustaining is. So we. Which General Conference or State Conference? What month, year are we.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:54:39] This is April of 2023. Yes, I want to say 2023.

John Dehlin [02:54:44] So April of 2023, is it a State Conference or General Conference?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:54:48] State Conference, right after the General Conference.

John Dehlin [02:54:50] Okay. And what's sustaining is. Do you want me to explain or do you want to explain?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:54:53] You go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:54:53] Please, go ahead. So the Mormon Church has this teaching called common consent, where. This is how I'm going to explain it today. The Church might explain it differently. Where they want to create the perception of democracy and of unanimity by. With some frequency, a few times a year, State conference, general Conference, ward conference, members are given the chance to sustain their leaders. So. So they'll get up and start reading off the name of the prophet and the name of the First Presidency, and all the members will get a chance to either raise their arms to sustain the church leaders or to oppose the church leaders. And then they'll go down to the quorum of the 12, same thing. Sustain or not sustain. Then the general authorities of the Church sustain or not sustain. Then your stake leadership sustain or not sustain. Then your bishop and the bishopric sustain or not sustainability. And then the ward leaders. And the whole time, it's always everyone raising their hand to sustain in the entire building. And then when they say, and anyone who's opposed, nobody raises their hand. So it just gives everyone a feeling that, you know, two or three or four times a year, everyone in the building is all on the same page in supporting all of the church leadership, from the very top of the church to literally the primary chorister and the nursery leader. And it's a ritual of everyone always saying they support the church leaders and people will go their whole lives and never hear a single person ever vote opposed in that ritual. Right. Which means it's not really common consent. There's no consent in that. It's just a ritual to create the appearance of. Of unanimous support. But we're all used to it, and it's super. One of the most taboo things in Mormonism to raise your hand and vote opposed at any point. So general conference just happens in April of 2023. State Conference is coming up.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:57:06] No one is talking to me. I did the two, three walks I mentioned.

John Dehlin [02:57:09] You try to talk to your bishop.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:57:11] Try to talk, bring it up. Up. No one is coming back to me. Checking. You know, I stopped going. No one is coming back. Did anyone ever ask anything?

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:57:21] If I was at church by myself, I would be kind of piggy, like, how are you? We miss Mitia so much. Let them know we love them. That whole.

John Dehlin [02:57:28] So all the ward sees you as a mixed faith family.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:57:32] All of a sudden I'm out of the picture.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:57:35] It's so weird how they build you up for so coming.

John Dehlin [02:57:38] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:57:38] You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:57:39] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:57:39] It's almost like.

John Dehlin [02:57:40] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:57:41] Why are you praising me?

John Dehlin [02:57:42] You're a hero because your husband's staying home and you still go.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:57:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:46] And I just have to say, after how much you had given the church, you had, in effect, been a bishop leading an entire Mormon congregation for five years. You are a convert to the church who had given 10 plus years of your life to the church. You deserve some answers. God damn it. Like, I started to swear. I can see why you felt like, I'm in Utah. I'm in the church's world headquarters, and I'm taught my friend who I barbecued with is now the bishop. Somebody give me some freaking answers.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:19] Or even if not answers, how about just listening to you and saying these questions are valid.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:58:27] Exactly. Just admitting, you know what? I don't know. And you're right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:58:30] Well, he did say one thing. He said. I remember he said that I'm so sad. The things that bring me so much joy disrupt you so much.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:58:39] Well, that's a little backhanded.

John Dehlin [02:58:40] Like a guilt Trip.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:58:41] It's like a guilt trip.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:58:42] Oh, he's really good at that one.

John Dehlin [02:58:43] I mean, that's kind of brainwashing.

Sara Lakner Bevc [02:58:45] That's not great.

John Dehlin [02:58:46] That's gaslighting for sure. But then I said, brother, your reality is twisted.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [02:58:52] I said, brother. But now you step into my shoes and just a simple, quick example, because I was so. I could. It was so vivid and so felt to me. If you saw my wife cheating while I'm at work, and a man is coming to our home while I'm gone, and she's having an affair over and over again, and you happen to be the witness from the across the street, would you ever tell me that I'm being cheated on? And he landed in shock and. Well, it depends. I said, what? Depends on what? Are you my friend or not? Like, is that, like, is that being righteous? Is that the fair? Like, it could be difficult, but, you know, you're my friend. It would be like. I mean, it can be delicate. He's, you know, he avoided that. Whatever I said. And then I said another one like, your. Your house is on fire. Walk by your house, your roof is on fire. And I'm saying, hey, guys, you gotta get. You're on the window still waving to me. I say, hey, your roof is on fire. Oh, it's not. You're just imagining, you know, like, it's. It's not real, you know? What are you talking about?

John Dehlin [03:00:10] The house that brings me joy is causing you so much. The fact that yours is burning is causing you so much sad. This. When my house clean out and look to the.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:00:21] Look to the roof, it's actually on fire. Dude, you got to be rested.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:24] I'm sorry you don't appreciate or can't live in a burning house.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:00:27] What's wrong with you? Like, you know, like.

John Dehlin [03:00:30] Like my house is fine.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:00:31] Did you not take your medicine? Yeah, Mitia, like, yeah. So I. I tried to be vivid. I tried to be like real life to explain. Okay, we're talking about, like, no, we're real people.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:00:41] I just felt like there's no. So I'm just like, you know, not being taken care of or whatever. Not even expecting, but being very shocked the way I didn't get any response. Right.

John Dehlin [03:00:52] So it's disrespect.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:00:55] Yeah, I think. Yeah. I just felt like this should be it. This is my home. These are my people.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:02] Well, I think too. Do you feel like it's where you start hitting up against someone's armor? Like someone is.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:01:11] Oh, yeah, like that person.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:13] And it's Also, it draws a line in the sand where maybe you're having an experience that feels very personal. Like, we have a personal relationship. We're friends. Where this friend. The friendship goes beyond actually, you know, the religion. Right. That. Anyway. And then what you're experiencing actually is a line in the sand where it's like, oh, wait, the friend. What just happened? Why are you not acting like a friend right now? Why am I feeling like I'm having this experience of not being able to penetrate to your humanness?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:01:46] Exactly. Wow. Thank you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:01:48] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:01:48] Yeah. That's it.

John Dehlin [03:01:50] Are you saying something, sir?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:01:51] I was gonna say at the same time as exactly that, you know, all that you said when he's coming home, being frustrated that these people can't do that. I was also like, but what did you expect me? Because I know the culture. I know that those questions are off limits. You just don't do it. And unless, like, you know, that they don't have an answer, you know, that they are uncomfortable. Like, I was just, like, why? I was honestly very Mormon in that way, saying, like, well, what do you expect? You know? Like, I can say it's not nice of them, but it's like, that's just the way it is, you know? So I just wasn't shocked when he was getting these responses, you know, or lack of response, you know, Is there

John Dehlin [03:02:31] something about Slovenian culture, the directness, where you felt comfortable being direct with your leaders in a way that is not normal for Utah Mormon culture?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:02:45] Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. It's being bold. It's addressing things the way there are, you know, even if you're not gonna. Even if you're gonna disagree, you know.

John Dehlin [03:02:55] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:02:56] I would also add as direct as Europeans can tend to be, I do feel like, in general, Slovenes kind of mind their own business, and they are a little bit more. They might say something, but then they go on. I really do feel that Mitya is honestly just an individual of his own, regardless of nation. I really do. I think there's a directness across the board in Europe that Americans don't have. But in public settings, I think Slovenes actually don't take the main stand. And I think they usually do mind. They're known for kind of just not creating a lot of drama.

John Dehlin [03:03:31] And so do you. How do you. Do you call that direct? Do you call that confrontational? What do you call that difference between Mithya and just, you know, other people in or out of Slovenia?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:03:42] Like, I would say, like, Slovenes in general are direct in personal exchanges, but in a bigger thing I think Mitya is just, I think, a little more emboldened. He's emboldened, and it's just his personality. He's just a very passionate person. Whether it's good or bad, he's just going to share what he thinks, no matter what, no matter the crowd, no matter the group. He's just going to. He loves connecting with people. He loves communicating.

John Dehlin [03:04:07] So this is more media than a

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:04:08] cultural difference for me, as his wife, I would say.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:04:13] But I also evolved to a point.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:04:15] He's gotten more so in this whole chapter of our life because you give

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:04:19] 15 years, it's real life. Like you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:04:22] I do feel like something got in him that was like, he's not settled until he speaks out loud because he's so mad for being basically lied to or keeping things hidden from. It's all. I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but it's almost like a retaliation of like, you've been quiet all these years. I'll show you quiet.

John Dehlin [03:04:38] I'm the same way. Like. Like, it's like, why did I do Mormon stories? Like, no, I'm not staying quiet about this.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:04:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:44] Nobody else felt like they needed to make a big deal about it.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:04:46] Opposition. Okay, I'll you opposite shit. You know, it's like, I mean, he's gonna go. And I think he's a big debater also and likes to just kind of challenge people in just even casual discussion too, you know, so.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:04:58] And I want them challenging me.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:05:00] That's the thing. Yeah. This is just, I think also his personal. Yes. In general, people are more direct there. But specifically this situation is very much me. Tia.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:07] And I do feel like there was an escalation to this situation. Like, I do feel like at different times you were trying to be hurt. Heard you were trying to do the personal first.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:05:17] Yes, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:18] You were trying. And so what happens is like that frustration and you kind of wanting your experience to be legitimized, seen for sure. Understood in some way oftentimes. I think it. It can kind of evolve this way psychologically quite naturally. And that desire also for accountability. Like, can. Can you. You just. I've given up a lot here. I've given a lot here. Like, is there in your personal integrity

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:05:47] as well also wanting to just in a sentence, wanting to expose myself that I don't know. And going away from all the claims now because I was claiming things, being a branch president, I was leading people astray. Not always the truth. I was making a more fear than belief as a leader because it Was so much was hidden from me. So much was the church made a

John Dehlin [03:06:13] liar out of you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:06:14] So I want to come in front of my congregation in Slovenia and say, I am sorry. I said that publicly. That's one of the first things I want to say. I am sorry. Brothers and sisters, that hall in that chapel is way wider than it's presented.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:06:30] You did send that to them? Yeah, he sent that message to the members. And the district president contacted our bishop and said, watch out for this guy, because he's sending threatening messages before the sustaining problem. Before all that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:41] Okay, so you were starting.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:06:42] That was after I saw the movie who Killed Joseph Smith? Because everything was up. Like, wow, nothing. How could you know what is true here? Like, just not a super important detail.

John Dehlin [03:06:50] So just as background context, you started speaking out on the Internet. Well, you started speaking to local church leaders. Couldn't get an answer. You started speaking out on the Internet. Like, I went on Facebook and Instagram.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:07:03] Yeah, just comments, maybe, like here and there. Not too heavy. Like, just, you know.

John Dehlin [03:07:07] And then you went and contacted your former branch members of your former branch in Slovenia and basically said, the church isn't what I told you. And I'm sorry.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:07:19] I don't think he actually said those words. He just said, no, God is bigger than that hall, than that chapel. Basically, that was the essence.

John Dehlin [03:07:27] Okay, got it. Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:07:28] Yes. Christ is everywhere. In a sense, Christ is on the mountain. It's not in that very building that you think it is. And you're not entitled to all the blessings. Brothers, sisters, I love you, but it's bigger.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:38] Okay, wait, just to be clear, so are you feeling on the same page about this idea as he's speaking out and as he's being more vocal?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:07:49] No, I was. Our marriage was on the rocks, like, major.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:54] Yes. Because what I'm hearing and from your interview, you referred to yourself as a good girl so many times. Like, numerous times. I feel like. In your story, do you have family members who are active, who are in Utah that you're in relationship with?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:08:13] Yes. So I have. I say our family is, like, right now, like, half in, half. Half in, half out. But I was kind of the one to make it more on the outside. It was even when I was in the church and then when I left. Now it's on the lesser side. But I've always been really close to my family, and I know that they looked up to me and loved that I served a mission, loved that I was living in my mission. I didn't want to let them down. And Disappoint them for sure.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:35] That's right. So you're having a lot of. What I see is this is very complicated. And your personality and the way that. Is that fair to say?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:08:46] Yeah, totally.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:46] That this is, like, very. Is it personally confronting to you the style to which he is. Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:08:55] Horrible.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:56] So that's an extra, lady.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:08:57] Because I also cared about how my family looked at him, and I was like, they had him on a pedestal. Like, everyone loved me, and now it's like this heathen, you know? And I was so. I was like, please don't do this to yourself. Don't make this worse than it already is. Like, if we leave the church, that's one thing, but if you make a parade of this, like, okay, there's never an end to it. Like, we're shamed forever. And I was like, please just be quiet. And I think it bothered him that some people do leave the church out the back door and go on their way. And I think that's fine, you know, like, if they found something better for them, let them go, you know? But he's like, it's just, like, you really felt strongly that you needed to speak out, and I felt very strongly. Please stop speaking out.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:33] I see. Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:09:34] Just be quiet. Like have. I agree with almost everything you send me. If I take time to watch it, I agree with you. But let's not talk about it. Let's just. If we really have this one life to live, let's let it go and move on and enjoy our life together.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:45] That's right. And culturally, you're connecting also with your experience, I would imagine, of being raised in the church. So you understand what it is to actually openly object. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:09:58] I was feeling all of the cultural, like, taboos, and he was embracing all of them. And I'm like, you have no idea what is gonna follow once you do this. I see. I mean, I think he had an idea because he's seen kind of what's happened to other people, if they've done anything. You know, now there's more, like social media. We see what's happened around the world with people speaking out.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:17] But I wanted to just be very clear about your personality.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:10:21] No. This was a very hard time in our marriage, and it was a hard time. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:25] Let me ask you this. Would it have changed at all if you had not been in Utah? If he had done some of these things or disrupted in this way, would it be different without your family, you know, kind of being. Without it being in Utah? I'm just curious if that would have made it a different. Different experience for you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:10:46] It would have, and I think in two, like, ironic ways, because in one way, in the beginning, I would have been. Because I was abroad and not home, I would have felt like I couldn't have trusted myself enough to really question things. I'd been like, oh, I'm just. I'm getting lost out here in the world. Like, I'm not at my home base where I feel most at home. And I. You know, I would say, like, I can imagine myself not being brave enough to actually question things. I would feel like I'm really falling off the cliff because I'm on the other side of the world. I'm so far away from my family. I've completely lost it all. But because I was here, I felt safe enough to actually question it, honestly. But at the same time, it was way more intense to have him be so vocal here than if we would have been. If we would have been over there, it would have been hidden more. So his journey affecting me would have been less intense over there, but my journey would have not been as been. I would have not trusted myself as much with my own journey over there. But here, his way of dealing with it was way, like, too much for me. But I also was in such an intense, like, honest space here. And then I saw also. And we can get that more later. Like, the reactions of people that are close to me, their reactions and the reactions of the church, as we'll find out, were so intense that I feel like I trusted myself even more because I saw so clearly the real picture in Utah.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:09] It was the Mormon Church in Utah,

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:12:10] the Mormon Church in Sylvania. I would have been like, yeah, this wouldn't have happened back home. You know, I needed it to happen here for all the reasons.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:17] The reason why I ask is, I think that conformity piece in Utah and the fact that we live in spaces right, where so many people are Mormon, our ward members, our neighbors are. It makes it really intense. We've had this conversation with. In regard to our excommunication. Right. The irony of us moving back to Utah for John to start Mormon stories, to be excommunicated in a small town, you know, up in. And if it would have been different if he had been excommunicated in Seattle or it was just. And that's what made me ask that question for.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:12:54] Even if we would have lived in Salt Lake instead of Pleasant Grove. Right. I honestly feel like that was a very specific part of the, you know, tornado. I mean, yeah, I Do believe that we were supposed to move back to the States, and I think it needed to happen here or else it would have never been the same thing. So as much as I hated it. Yeah. It's opened up a whole new life. So.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:15] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:13:15] Anyways, we can go.

John Dehlin [03:13:16] That was important because I think part of your frustration, Mithya, might have been that it was really causing distress on your marriage.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:13:23] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:13:24] Yeah, absolutely.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:13:25] I honestly feel like that distress, though, was more on me. I think he was just like, it's gonna be fine. Like, this is the reality.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:13:31] Like, because I felt safe with Christ, I said, I'm not leaving Christ.

John Dehlin [03:13:35] Well, the thing is.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:13:36] But the church fell off, like, just like a facade. Interesting, you know, But Christ is with me because I'm addressing the truth. I'm not lying. I'm not taking money. I'm not, like, I'm not committing adultery. I'm the best person that I know how to be, and I'm here only because of Jesus Christ. But it happened to be in the Mormon Church, so that's the confrontation. So Christ and church don't go along anymore in my life. So church falls off because it's like corporation, but Christ stays. Right.

John Dehlin [03:14:10] So. Oh, go ahead now.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:14:12] Just gonna lead back, if it's okay, back to us going to the state conference.

John Dehlin [03:14:16] Yeah. So who gets the bright idea to vote opposed publicly?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:14:21] I think it was Sarah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:14:22] Yeah, right. No, I just felt for a long time.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:14:25] Let's go over. Yeah. There's a saying.

John Dehlin [03:14:27] Don't poop in your own nest. Like, why would you want to vote opposed in your home, ward or stake? And tell all your neighbors, dozens and dozens of surrounding family members in your subdivision where you live, all the parents and children who are friends of your children, all the people you barbecued with, you're going to tell them all that you don't believe the church is true publicly in church, in one of the most confrontational ways you could ever do it. Where in the world would this idea come from?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:15:03] This is like the worst day of my life.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:15:04] I was just led. I was just driven because I felt like no one wants to talk about Christ, but they're all talking about church. But the fundamental thing is Christ. Right? Without Christ, we don't have anything. Right?

Margi Dehlin [03:15:18] Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:15:19] And I need to defend Christ here. Christ is insulted by the way things go, by the way people are being handled. And now I get to experience it my own way. I'm with Christ, don't get me wrong, guys. But I'm not supporting this church anymore because it's not of Christ. It's a man made structure. That's the main message.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:15:43] Let's just set the picture for that day. It's April, and Utah is beautiful in April. It's morning. There's, like, blossoms everywhere. And I wasn't going to go with him because I was so against what he was going to do. But I thought, you know what? We're a family. Let's go. And so we walk back, we go into the church, and we get there right when it's starting. So we're technically a little bit late by just that. And I remember walking past a cute young mom, and I was thinking, she seems so cool. Like, I bet we would be friends. Why can't I just be okay with things? Because I missed having that, like, community with, like, other moms and girls, you know, and just. I just like something nostalgic about that came with the carpet, walls, everything, like, the smell. It just, like, brought back a lot of feelings. And I was like, man, is there any way I could just, like, unsee what I've seen or what I've felt and just be friends with her? Like, if she can do it, why can't I? She seems, like, smart, like a normal, cool girl. And I was like, whatever. So I just was a thought. I'm passing, and as we go into the chapel on the side doors, I was thinking, okay, it's a state conference. It's packed all the way into the gym in the back space. And I'm thinking, we're gonna get. The lights are down in the back, right? It's kind of darker. I'm like, let's get a seat in the back where he can oppose and no one will see us. But of course, Mitya, that's not gonna go. And he sees that there's a few seats right in the very front of the chapel, like, three rows back, where it's all lit up. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. And it's packed in there. So we walk in and everyone in our ward is seeing us as a family come to church for the first time in months. And they're all like, the Lochners are here. And I'm like, she's back. And I'm just thinking, you have no idea what's about to happen.

John Dehlin [03:17:18] And is this Alpine, Pleasant Grove Island? Pleasant Grove, Very Orthodox?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:17:23] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:24] Or Utah County.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:17:25] And I get all the looks and the nodding and everything. You're back. And we're so happy, Happy you came as a family. And I'm like, you don't know what is about to happen.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:17:35] Oh my gosh, I felt so sick to my stomach. And so we sit down, like do we have to sit here where it's all illuminated and bright and I'm like oh my gosh. So we sit down and just like shoulder shoulders everyone. And anyways right away it starts, right? And they start music and then right away.

John Dehlin [03:17:51] And then they do the sustaining.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:17:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:53] So the leader gets upstate president or his counselor gets up, starts reading off the names. And what do you do when he says all in favor? Everyone raises their hand and he opposed. And what do you do?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:18:07] Stand up. I lift my hand up straight up to the ceiling and say I oppose.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:18:12] But you don't actually say it super loud to be honest.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:18:16] No. So everyone could hear I oppose. But like it's not screaming. It's not just clearly goes I oppose

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:18:25] and then would sit back down. And he also wanted me to like record him just to have proof that he like wasn't being disruptive. But I was like, I'm not freaking recording. I was so against it. I was like no, I'm just freaking. I'm like, you don't have to stand up every time. I didn't know he was gonna stand up. So like in my brain we would be in the back and he would just oppose. I didn't know he would actually vocally say it and then additionally stand up. And I was just like panic attack was coming onto me and I'm like, I can feel all like 800 eyeballs in the back of my head just like burning into me being like. I can just feel the judgment on us so strongly. And I'm just like.

John Dehlin [03:18:57] Cuz it's never done.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:18:58] This is my husband doing this and I'm like. And he's like. And like this like salmon colored dress shirt and I'm just like I. I was just like I was panicking and so I don't even know if I stayed for all eight sustainings and imposing. But it happened.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:19:13] She just grabbed the kids.

John Dehlin [03:19:13] And you did it like eight times in the same.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:19:17] He built a whole list of like general authorities and then like local leaders and he posed all of them. And I don't know if I stood up.

John Dehlin [03:19:26] I mean ask. You would assume if they ask, they want to know if you oppose or don't.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:19:30] Right, right. I know. And so I'm like, why am I

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:19:32] just answering your question?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:19:33] Anyway, so I think I, I get up and I walk out just to go to the bathroom for or just to get out of there. I'M like, I can't be in here. And then I come back and sit down. And by then the talks are going, and it was just like, some talk about the Saratoga Springs Temple or something. And I'm like, why am I here? This is, like, not serving me. I'm like, I can't stand him. I can't stand this talk. I'm like, what am I doing here? I'm out. And so I just. As I meet you, I'm out. I took the kids and I went outside, and I was just, like, pacing, and I'm like, I can't breathe. And then two girls from my ward follow me out and are like, are you okay? I'm so sorry. And I'm wanting to say, like, you think? I'm so mad at him for opposing. Like, for having the opinion of opposition. And I'm like, if he only knew that I actually agree with him. I just hate that he's opposing. And I'm like, but why am I hating that he's opposing when people are asking, does he oppose? It was such, like, a brain. I don't wanna say the word. But, you know, it was.

John Dehlin [03:20:26] But a Mormon would say, why are you even there if you don't believe him?

Margi Dehlin [03:20:29] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:20:29] And so it's just like, they were all pitying me. And I'm like, you don't even know what actually is going on with me right now. Like, I'm actually mad at him, but also the church for setting, like, for citing up, you know, it's like, you're setting us up to be in trouble.

John Dehlin [03:20:41] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:20:42] You know, so anyways, I'm already in deep trouble.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] So what happened after you opposed eight times Flex.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:20:49] You could feel it in the air. Like, the text message they giving me. The whole leadership's giving me looks. I already got a text, like, right after.

John Dehlin [03:20:57] Who texted you?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:20:58] Just a friend or State presidency counselor saying, hey, dude.

John Dehlin [03:21:02] Or what?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:21:03] Hey, hey, Brother Luckner. Like, can we meet for a meeting? And I'm like, when did you guys communicate? State president was just, like, sustaining up at the pulpit. You're sitting behind him. How did that go so fast? They already had to be expecting something because internally, the bishop, our friend, was probably sharing concerns about me not coming this. That I'm vocal it might happen. I don't know these speculations, but pretty much had to be that way, right? So I was already on the radar.

John Dehlin [03:21:34] You had a text before the meeting's even over?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:21:36] Oh, yeah, right away, after my opposing. And I'm like, we're. I said yes, Meeting. Like, I don't say yes for sure. Like, I write him back. Who are you? Who is texting me? Because I didn't know. The first counselor on the stake presidency. Oh, you are the one. So we're communicating during the conference.

John Dehlin [03:21:52] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:21:53] And then the seventies comes up. Elder. Check it, whatever sign for the first time. Right. So it's a big. He's a big guest speaker. Right. And then afterwards, of course, like, I wait at the office. Like, I wanted. Finally, my messages, like, talk to me.

John Dehlin [03:22:08] Oh, the meeting was that day.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:10] Oh, yeah, the first one. Yeah. Just like, with the 70s into. He wants to talk to me.

John Dehlin [03:22:15] Oh, so you did it in front of an area authority.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:17] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:18] And then you met afterwards with your stake president and the area authority.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:23] Yes. This was just to. You know.

John Dehlin [03:22:25] That's pretty intense.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:22:26] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:27] But just as the conference was ending, Sarah is out. Right. I'm there by myself. People start coming to me that I've seen for the first time. Who are you, brother? Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:22:39] Wait, what?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:40] John people, Random members from the back. Who are you, brother? Thank you for this.

John Dehlin [03:22:45] Wait, they were thanking you for voting opposed?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:47] Random members? Yes. Who are you? I said, I'm just a media guy. Like, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:51] Why would a member. Thank you for voting opposed?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:54] What do you think?

John Dehlin [03:22:56] What do you think?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:22:57] Because they need the support. Because they know the story. They know the plot. They've been suffering for decades, years, generations. And it's there.

John Dehlin [03:23:07] It's like, wow, this is the first time anybody's ever opposed.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:23:10] Yes. And then I turn around and see a guy in between the door piercing through me. How do you dare? Just the looks of. Then another guy comes. Thank you, brother. And he just moves away, like, taps me on the back. Thank you, man.

John Dehlin [03:23:25] Wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:23:25] And I'm like.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:23:26] I was gone, though. And I'm like, dude, I can't do this.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:23:28] I just. I just. You know, I just voted again. I mean, voted. Like, I just didn't support the membership. I'm not the prophet. But you were like, hey, prophet. Like, it was weird. A weird feeling, but it just confirmed and that. That fear I felt, like, all around, like, you know, like, being in people, like, for years. Right. Like, And. Yeah. Such as, go with Christ, whatever. Right. Like.

John Dehlin [03:23:53] So how was that meeting after?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:23:55] It was amazing, because they're all gathered. They're all like, nice brother Lochner. Oh, how are you? How is your family? Blah, blah, how many kids? And then we waited for the 70s. He comes in and he wants to know more about me. So I talk to him. Like, it's A brief introduction. His wife is on his side. Right, right. So where's the problem? Like, why did you. You know, I said, oh, there's so many things just no one wants to talk to me about, you know, and, oh, we're going to do that. The stake president for the first time, me and him kind of. I. I've seen him coming to the world, but like, hey, hello. Hi, how are you? But not really had a contact before. Now I'm exposed there in front of him. Right. The whole stake presidency and the seventies with his wife. Right. And I'm just like, are we gonna finally talk? Like, you know, I have a lot of issues. Like, that's why I oppose. Because, you know, this is. It's not the way it's supposed to be. However, like, things get like, the 70s go straight to the scriptures. Let me tell you. Yeah. We have the priesthood. I said, it's not about. I don't even want to go doctrinal right now. I just want to know why you guys are not talking to me. Why is there no concern about me having concerns? And then I. I don't remember all the details.

John Dehlin [03:25:16] No, that's fine.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:25:17] I turned at some point, I turned to his wife and I say, ma', am, because I don't call him presidents at that point anymore. No elders, nothing. Right. Like I said, ma', am, can I ask you one specific question? When you read Doctrine and Covenants D and C 132, and I have so many issues about. Like, I could never talk to my wife. She never opened up about the polygamy in a way that we could discuss the scripture or. So I'm still wondering, like, how do you feel reading that? Emma's gonna be destroyed if she doesn't comply with God's proposition. And she's like, excuse me. And I'm like, wow, she does know anything about it. This is the wife of the 70s. She doesn't know what's in DNC 132. And then he jumps in, trying to save her, like, saying, oh, God. I said, thank you. I got the answers. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:26:13] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:26:14] Like, it was.

Margi Dehlin [03:26:15] Wow.

John Dehlin [03:26:15] Yeah, wow. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:26:18] Not even a sense. Not even an opinion. Not even. Yeah, wow.

John Dehlin [03:26:22] So because the average Mormon won't read the scriptures deeply enough to really think about what's actually in DNC132. Because if it's problem, either they're so busy they don't have time.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:26:33] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:34] Or they just skim over it because they don't want to really think about what it's actually saying. Right?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:26:39] Yes. So stake president continuously says, mitya, we're going to talk more. I'm going to reach out to you. Right. I want to have a deeper conversation. I want to, you know, And I grabbed his word. So. Okay. Finally a month goes by. Nothing, no call from him, nothing. It's a Sunday, right? Testimony meeting.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:27:01] Well, you decide to go and share a testimony on fast and testimony, meaning. And I was very much begging him not to. I'm like, you've already opposed. Just let it be.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:27:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:27:12] So they just left you alone even though they. So the bishop didn't follow up. Now why can't. I would think you would have appointments with the bishop and the stake president within a week.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:27:23] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:24] But you didn't.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:27:25] No. So I'm like, again, like, you're skipping this, huh? Why? What do I need to do?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:27:31] I don't remember if it was the next month. So that was end of April, so I don't remember if it was May or you were going to go the next week. And then I think you finally gave it and said, no, I won't. But then in June, fast and testimony, meaning he did go and I was begging him not to and he's like, no, I'm just going to over my testimony.

John Dehlin [03:27:48] So that's the June 4th talk.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:27:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:27:51] So he. So he decided to bear his testimony. I say in air quotes, but to prepare what he was going to share in like a talk.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:28:01] Yeah, it was like he prepared his testimony so it wasn't a talk.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:28:04] I wrote it down so I wouldn't be like wasting time. Whatever. I'm going straight like, this is my testimony. It's just written. It's helping me. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:28:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:28:11] Okay. And I'm just going to before and I'm going to have you read what you wrote up until the point where your. Your testimony was interrupted mid testimony. But it really wasn't a testimony you would from a believing Mormon standpoint, you had disrupted state conference by voting opposed. And then within a month and a half of stake conference, you decide you're going to go to fast and testimony meeting in your ward and basically give a talk that wasn't a testimony, was basically an UN testimony. Like that's a that I think the average believing Mormon would say, that's wrong. No one should ever go up in a testimony meeting where the purpose is to bear testimony of Jesus, God and the church and say you don't believe. So that tell me what went through your mind in terms of making that decision to do something extra confrontational Right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:29:10] I didn't take it as confrontational.

John Dehlin [03:29:12] Really? No.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:29:14] For a month. Again, where were you?

John Dehlin [03:29:16] Where were you?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:29:17] I was not agreeing. Yeah, I know, I know. I wasn't being heard.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:29:21] No, I knew one thing, that they're not taking me seriously again.

John Dehlin [03:29:26] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:29:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:29:26] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:29:27] So no, they're dismissing me. I don't, Like, I'm. There's no value in like, whatever. Right. So said, it's testimony meeting. This is my testimony now it's changed. Who says. Who will tell me what my testimony is? Who are you, John? You can, you know, let's go to the definition of the testimony. Not by lds, but like my testimony. What do I believe? This is like bringing over the beliefs. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [03:29:54] But it's a Mormon context.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:29:55] Of course. It's the biggest violation. Right?

John Dehlin [03:29:58] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:29:58] I didn't know.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:00] It is a huge identifier. Like it's hard to communicate how much of Mormonism is being on script is being in a conformity where you say the same thing as everyone else, where even if a question's asked, there are only a certain, like certain answers are permitted. And it's so easy to go and be othered. Be perceived as a threat here. So there's like what you're saying, which is, you know, I oppose or. But then there's what the act means in the face of the context of a congregation, in this social psychology experience of, of we're all the same. We're not really separate. Right. And that's the thing that I think is visceral. That is a visceral experience. And ultimately what makes it more of a cult like experience as opposed to just, you know, a religion that's not high demand or high control. Right.

John Dehlin [03:31:07] Before you make that point, I just wanted to reiterate something Margi said. A really interesting conversation I once had with Richard Bush, who's like the church's top historian and Joseph Smith defender. He said to me, Sunday school isn't really a school. Sunday school is a ritual where every Sunday people say what's supposed to be said and then everybody else agrees. It's a ritual of shared belief. It's not an actual education. Testimony means meeting is not everyone's actual testimony. It's people getting up who know they want to say what the Mormon Church would want them to say so that everybody else can have the experience of shared belief and a shared agreement in

Margi Dehlin [03:32:00] a set of beliefs and a shared reality.

John Dehlin [03:32:02] Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:32:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:32:03] And so, and again, sustaining of members isn't the actual voting yes or no, do I support my leaders It's a ritual of everyone expressing unanimous agreement on this support of the authority of the leadership. And so, yeah, you're breaking the ritual.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:32:25] I'm breaking the ritual.

John Dehlin [03:32:26] But you're actually taking it more seriously

Margi Dehlin [03:32:29] and more literally, technically and more literally.

John Dehlin [03:32:33] Authentic, literal, meaningful, sincere, instead of the rote, superficial, robotic, you know, mimicking of what you're expected to do and say and believe. Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:32:47] So. Oh, no, I was just going to

Margi Dehlin [03:32:50] observe this tension in this moment that you're telling about, because I think getting off this narrative script, right. Within a marriage, you have two people oftentimes representing two worlds of experience. Right, Two. And so I guess my question to you is, like, it feels like to me, you're really high integrity in this moment. You're feeling like a sudden of doing something that empowers you when you experience something that's really disempowering overall. And then the other side is you're partnered and you're loving this person who's not like you. Sarah. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [03:33:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:44] And Sarah's saying, please don't. Please don't with what you're doing. Right. And it's this place of, I know you love Sarah, and I know you're in this moment where you've loved this religion that now you've found out has betrayed you. So it's like conflicting values. Right. And you have your individual thing you want, but then you also are in partnership with someone who's saying, please don't. This feels like a lot. You're being authentic to yourself in this way is really, you know, stressful or hurting me. I'm curious if you heard that. If in that moment, if that value. If you heard that and then really felt like, but my healing, I need to do this. Was it too hard to hear that? Because you really needed that. I'm just curious in your awareness what it felt like to be you. And if you were holding your journey and Sarah's journey both, and you were deciding, like, this is what I need. It's like oxygen, I need to do this thing even if it hurts Sarah. Like, what was going through your mind?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:34:56] Yeah, it was the letter, that one. But it's not like I don't care that she's hurting. She's hurting already. I felt that she was hurting when we wanted to talk polygamy and. And she wasn't ready to.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:35:12] Just for the record, you keep saying that. I don't talk about it. I would talk to you about polygamy all the time. I don't talk to other people who Would justify polygamy. Oh, okay. I would talk to about polygamy. I can talk about 123. I don't want to. Or 132. I can't talk to other people who are justifying it for the hundredth time.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:27] That's important.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:35:28] That's when I don't talk about did. I don't hold space for that anymore.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:35:31] Yeah, but I saw like so many times, so many spaces are not safe for Sarah inside the religion. Right. I felt it. And we never went like, further down and actually discussed things. Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:35:45] I think there's a reason for that. Like I've mentioned before today, once he started his journey and I didn't mind, I really did intentionally keep my journey to myself without him because he was so intense that I thought, you're not able to see my gentleness in going in this and how vulnerable I am. Like, I need you to tread lightly, and you're just like a bulldozer. So you were not a safe place for me to even talk to.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:36:09] Absolutely.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:36:09] It was frustrating him that I couldn't speak to him about the podcast or what he was doing in church. He thought it. I think you looked at me as like, oh, I'm not as progressed in my deconstruction as you. When I was seeing it just, I'm on a completely different path as you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:36:22] That was true.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:36:22] And so it's not about who's further improve in deconstruction. It's just a completely different machine. Yeah. A different approach. And so in terms of what you were asking, like, I think we both agree that you were gonna go do what you were gonna do, regardless of how much I was on my knees begging you to let it go. It had been enough, you know, I was like, opposition opposing. It's enough. Like, please do not go back there again. You're only gonna stir up trouble. Please. I was begging him, and I honestly did feel like my voice was completely dismissed because you had what you wanted to do for your reasons. And I can, like, expect respect that. But, like, I had to be just like, it was a huge divide.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:02] And that's why there was that.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:37:04] It was a huge divide divide.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:05] And I just want to acknowledge, like, those times in marriage happen. They happen. Especially if you're together long enough in this dynamic life. And I just wanted, with a lot of softness to kind of hold this fact of it's one of the hardest places to be in relationship, whether it's with a partner, with a child, where the thing you need or the thing that feels Most healing or liberating or life giving, actually, to a partner or a loved one. It feels like pain. It feels like more stress. And I just wanted to bring that out in this moment as something that happens sometimes as we love, as we live, as we go through hard things.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:37:53] Wow. So good, Margi. Thank you. It was exactly. I just felt driven. I needed to do that because I didn't. I wasn't getting any feedback, you know.

John Dehlin [03:38:03] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:38:03] I was kind of being mocked. I felt like, you know, like all of a sudden, like, who. Who are. Like, we don't even care. Okay, you're not in church anymore, you know, really, like. But 15 years was okay. Serving in every. Like, you know what I mean? Dragging all of this, and now, like, no one will even listen. And I'm talking about the truth. It's coming from a place of truth, you know, so.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:38:27] So you go, yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:38:29] And I figure out they're prepared. Yeah, they're prepared for me. But I didn't. I was intentionally late. So that was an intentional thing, because I knew what would happen. They would. I felt it. It was in the air after the state conference and not. Not talking to me. I knew if I was about to be seen from the very beginning, they would probably put people up. They hadn't. You know, they had it out orchestrated. If Lochner comes, just how do we shut him down?

John Dehlin [03:39:00] Yeah. So now we're June 4, 2023. It's fast and testimony meeting in your Pleasant Grove ward. And you, after having just a month or so previously voted opposed in state conference in front of an area authority. You give this talk, and so I'll give this to you, and you can.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:39:23] Oh, shoot.

John Dehlin [03:39:25] He basically gets a paragraph in to his talk, and they basically ask you to sit down and shut off the mic. But were you, like, first. Were you, like, first to bear your testimony or just.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:39:38] Of course, I basically ran out, out of the hall because I knew I have to be the first one. You know, they were like. They started the meeting. It's a fast and testimony, and then he invited. Like, the bishop was not there that Sunday, and I didn't know. Oh, but it was his brother and the kids were getting.

John Dehlin [03:39:54] Were you in the pews confirmed, or did you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:39:57] No, no, I didn't want to be seen because in case I was seen,

John Dehlin [03:40:00] that would shut me down to go more intense. So, like, they have the prayer.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:40:04] I come out of the.

John Dehlin [03:40:05] They have the. They have the prayer, they have the sacraments. So, like, it's kickoff of a regular sacrament meeting.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:40:12] So in the Baptisms before. So there was probably confirmation or maybe

John Dehlin [03:40:16] a baby blessing or a confirmation.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:40:18] I think a new family had also been baptized.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:40:20] Yes. I missed that. So I missed that. I didn't even know.

John Dehlin [03:40:23] Okay, so you're waiting outside until the member of the bishopric gets up and says, now is the time, brethren and sisters.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:40:31] Yes. And I'm already.

John Dehlin [03:40:33] Your testimony about your belief in the restoration. And you're waiting outside. And as soon as he sits down, you come in the.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:40:42] The side door, the shortest way to the pulpit up. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:40:46] And you go right up to the front.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:40:48] Yeah. With my written testimony. And I turn to the, you know, congregation, and it's like, wow, they must have.

John Dehlin [03:40:55] I mean, I'm surprised they didn't, like, stop you before you even said a word, but they let you approach the microphone.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:41:01] I think they were all in shock.

John Dehlin [03:41:03] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:41:03] Because they couldn't comprehend it. You know, I would pop up just out of a sudden. I say that, yeah, I totally understand their side. I totally do.

John Dehlin [03:41:11] Were there audible gasps in the. In the congregation?

Escalating Conflict with Church Leadership

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:41:14] Really good.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:41:14] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:15] Are you reliving it, Sarah?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:41:17] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [03:41:18] So read. Read slowly up until the point where they stop you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:41:22] Yeah. Dear sisters and brothers, I stand here today to represent Christ my Savior, his truth and his love for us. I found Christ, and He found me 14 years ago. Got baptized in this church, met my amazing wife, Sarah. Got married and sealed in the temple. Served with love, hope, and faith in numerous callings, as well as a branch president for four years. Back in my home country of Slovenia, I helped three angels named Barry Indian Vita come down from heaven to experience earthly life. I've met incredible people, built amazing relationships, and I've done my best in representing and living the gospel of Jesus Christ. All for the sake of spreading the great news, the truth.

John Dehlin [03:42:05] So far, so good, right?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:42:07] Beautiful, yeah. However, here I am declaring my loss of trust in the LDS leadership. Both home. Mic goes off.

John Dehlin [03:42:16] Oh, so they immediately turned your mic off. And do you keep talking, but you can tell?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:42:22] Yeah, like, whoa, what's going on?

Margi Dehlin [03:42:25] Did you keep going or did you stop?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:42:28] No, they're like. They turn it off, like. And I'm just, like, in shock. Like, I didn't expect that. Right.

John Dehlin [03:42:35] Yeah, they have a little.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:42:36] Because I thought I have a really good, like, you know, I had time to sit down with myself, write it

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:42:43] out, you know, and, like, honestly, can I say something? I was worried about what he. I remember seeing him write something out for his testimony, and I was like, this is bad news bears. I'm not excited about this. But when I actually did read the whole thing, I mean, at this point, he had learned so much about church history. He could have slammed the church so much in it, and he really didn't. He honestly just talked about, go to Christ with your honest answers, and we'll

John Dehlin [03:43:10] make the entire talk available.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:43:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:12] For, like, the people who really want to geek out on this.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:43:15] I mean, it gets a little. There's maybe a couple lines where it's like, oh, it's a little bit straining. But there was nothing. Like, you guys are idiots for following this, like, cult. Like, there's nothing. There's really nothing. Bashing.

John Dehlin [03:43:26] But it doesn't matter because they didn't let him read it.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:43:28] I know.

John Dehlin [03:43:29] I'm just saying.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:43:29] So. Just so you know, like, it wasn't like he was coming in to, like, yeah, cast. You know, you're all the cool. Yeah, it was. Honestly. Yeah. It's an uncomfortable one because it's honest, but it wasn't. It was respectful.

John Dehlin [03:43:40] So we'll share the full talk along with maybe some of the correspondence that he had with the stake president prior to his excommunication. But did anyone stand up and whisper in your ear?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:43:52] Yeah, all of a sudden, the brother appears there, like, just underneath the pulpit.

John Dehlin [03:43:55] Do you mean the physical brother? The actual brother of the bishop?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:43:59] Sorry, no, no, no, no. Just a member from the leadership. Right.

John Dehlin [03:44:02] One of the bishop brothers.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:44:02] Not quite. Nice testimony. You know, he's into my face, and I said, who are you to tell me what my testimony is? Yeah, you just don't want. Just because you don't want to hear.

John Dehlin [03:44:13] Yeah, you're kind of arguing. Wait, oh, the mic is from the eyes?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:44:16] No, just the. The behind, like the. On the pulpit.

John Dehlin [03:44:19] So remember, the bishopric walks up to you, to your side, starts telling you

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:44:23] that's not to the side. Just in front. Just an elder, like, member, like,

John Dehlin [03:44:28] okay,

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:44:29] yeah, yeah, he's into my face from underneath the pulpit, like a member of a congregation. That's not Christ's testimony, you know, so

John Dehlin [03:44:35] you're kind of arguing with this guy.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:44:36] I'm just saying, who are you to tell me what my testimony is just because you don't want to hear it?

John Dehlin [03:44:40] This is the middle of a sacrament fast and testimony meeting, and you've been shut off with your mic, and now you are having this confrontation with a member of the ward while all the members are there for Sunday, looking on.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:44:53] I'm there like, you know, I'm standing like, it's an awkward situation. They don't know what to do. With me. I said, bro, just like, what are you doing? Why are you pulling me off of here? Like, yeah, you know, and then while this was happening, he's trying to, like, kind of lead me down, right? Pull me down of the pulpit. He's ending the meeting. The council gets up, back to the mic. Thank you, brothers and sisters. We'll end our meeting here today. See you next time. Like humans.

John Dehlin [03:45:20] So they told everyone to go home?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:45:22] Yes. People started standing up and leaving. And I'm watching that, and I'm saying, wow, that's not spontaneous. This is behind the scene. They knew exactly what they're gonna do. And I'm, like, still there. I'm like, what is going on?

John Dehlin [03:45:39] Well, years ago, there was a teenage girl in Utah who came out as lesbian during a fast and testimony meeting. And it was recorded. Her name was Savannah, and she. We did a Mormon stories episode with her. But at that point, it was recorded. It was during the emerging area of, like, it's probably pre TikTok, but it was definitely still Internet time, probably Facebook time. And they recorded it, and it made, like, national news. And so from that point further, I think the church made sure that there was a switch where the microphone could be immediately turned on or off. And I'm guessing they implemented the policy at that point. If this happens again, instead of having an argument or a meeting while all the members are there watching, just tell everyone to go home and then handle the controversies while everyone's left. And how does it feel for you to watch everybody leave in the meetings?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:46:38] What are you guys doing? What's going on here?

Margi Dehlin [03:46:40] Here?

John Dehlin [03:46:40] But it makes you going to end

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:46:41] the meeting Because I want to share my testimony, and you don't want to hear it.

John Dehlin [03:46:44] But it's kind of shameful. It's basically saying, you've wrecked the meeting.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:46:47] Oh, yeah, put it on me.

John Dehlin [03:46:49] Yeah, yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:46:49] And I'm not saying, like, you know, I had, like, thoughts about, like, was this wrong to come up like this in a way that I did, you know, But I'm like, you know what? In the end, I was. I was just driven. Like, no one was talking to me. It's not like I want to damage this. These are my people. I know every single. You know, but what do I do? I'm shocked, too. You know, I didn't expect, like, the meeting to be released, but I'm saying, hey, I'm not leaving this pulpit. So finally, like, two or three minutes, you know, they start gathering around me, the brethren. Yeah, brother, you know, I know how you feel. Blah, blah. So we slowly started moving outside the chapel. We end up outside and they're trying to, you know, kind of comfort me or, like, bring peace, you know, I said, hey, guys. Like, it's. You know, we kind of parted after a few minutes, you know, like, it was a heated. It was. There was a tension between us. They were shocked. You know, I'm shocked. The way they reacted, whatever. So I just left and went home. Right. Came home and told Sarah.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:57] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:47:58] You know, they turned my mic on.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:47:59] Messages from people at church.

John Dehlin [03:48:00] They started texting you. What were they saying?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:48:02] Like, if you need to talk, I'm always here for you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:48:06] We love you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:48:06] And I'm like, why is someone saying this to me at, like, 20 minutes into the meeting? You know, I'm like, the meeting should have just started. Like, why am I getting these messages from people? And then.

John Dehlin [03:48:17] But you knew he was going to do it, right?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:48:18] I knew he was going to do it, and I was very much against it, but I didn't know. Like, I assumed that's, like, it was just to that extent that, like, oh, they're sorry for me, as usual. But then all of a sudden, he comes home and he's like, they sent everyone home, Sarah. Can you believe it? And I was like, what? I'm like. I'm like, that's why everyone's messaging me at the same time when everyone was going home. They all messaged me. But the most insane thing is that, like, the night before or sometime within the previous days of that, I was so distraught about him planning to do this that I was like, I had a nightmare about it that, like, he went and spoke in church and that for whatever reason, it offended them so badly that they canceled church and sent everyone home. And I remember sitting in the, like, pews in my dream, and it was actually.

John Dehlin [03:49:04] So you're a prophetess.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:49:05] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:49:05] Basically what we're going for here. I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [03:49:09] You saw this in a vision?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:49:10] I really honestly did, though. It's, like, so bizarre because I was like. I remember when you left, I said, mithia, I'm so mad at you for going because I'm having nightmares over the.

John Dehlin [03:49:19] This.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:49:20] Like, you are crossing the line. You're pushing this so much that I'm even having. Sorry. Nightmares about this. And then I don't know if I told him what the nightmare was, but it was so real and humiliating. And then when he came home and he said, what happened? I'm like, did I tell you what my dream was? Because that's exactly what happened, and I just couldn't believe it. And it just broke my heart because I thought, you know what? There's a whole room of, like, youth in there, and them canceling church because he said, like, if the. You don't know the backstory of, like, what's going on with him, what from that testimony that he read was so threatening that they would need to turn off the mic and send everyone home. I'm like, all that did was instill fear. And so many people in there to be like, you better watch what you say. Even if you have the best intentions, if you say the wrong thing, you could have the biggest humiliation of your life, which is to have your mic turned off and send everyone home, you know? And I'm like, it could have hand. Like, even though I don't agree with what he did, I feel like the church could have handled it so differently. You know, it was like, what would have happened, guys, if you would have let him finish his talk and then got up and said, thank you, brother Lochner, for being honest and open with us. We hope you find your faith again and move on with your meeting? Like, that would have shown tolerance, you know, that would have shown that it's a safe place. That would have shown that, like, it's okay to be human, you know? But by canceling the meeting and then blaming it on him for the drama that happened, for all the questions that all the kids are gonna have to their parents, why is there no primary today? Like, that's just gonna open the lid for everyone and cause more drama? Like, I know. I was just really disappointed with how it was handled. Even though I didn't agree with what he did, I was still very disappointed with.

John Dehlin [03:51:00] I mean, the only. The only parallel I can think of socially to what you did is, like, being listed on the sexual offender registry. Like, I don't know any other way to be despised more in your community.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:51:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:51:18] And, I mean, you know, in. In Utah, it's like, two or three streets, and that's your ward. Right. So it's your immediate neighbors. If you want to walk around the neighborhood, it's your ward members.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:51:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:29] You're basically doing an act that would be looked upon comparably to being on the sexual offender registry in terms of what that's going to do to your reputation.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:41] In your. In your neighborhood.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:51:42] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:51:43] Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:51:43] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:51:44] We would go on exercise, like. Yeah. Exiled, like, immediately.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:51:47] People used to come out to say hi to us when we would walk down the street. And then it was, like, the feeling of like, oh, close the windows. They're walking down the street.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:51:54] You know, we know that feels down

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:51:56] the shift overnight, but. Yeah, then we just fast forward another morning.

John Dehlin [03:51:59] Okay, so did they do anything that month? Did a bishop reach out to you? Did a state president reach out to you? Did they tell you before the Kurt McConkie letter, was there any?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:52:09] Zero.

John Dehlin [03:52:10] What?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:52:10] Nothing.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:52:11] I don't think there was anything.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:52:11] No one talks.

John Dehlin [03:52:12] That is so weird that the bishop didn't say, okay, sorry we didn't talk to you before.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:52:19] They didn't reach out to you, I don't think. But they did reach out. They sent email to the whole ward. It's in a mass email out to

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:52:25] saying, like, what happened today? Just like, kind of wrapping it up.

John Dehlin [03:52:30] Did y' all get the email?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:52:32] No, I got it from a different member. Of course not.

John Dehlin [03:52:34] Someone forwarded you an email sent to everyone else?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:52:37] Yes, a member across the street, an inactive member who's still getting mails, you know.

John Dehlin [03:52:42] And what did the email say?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:52:44] We could pull it up, but basically it was summarizing, like testimony. Meaning is a time for us to testify of Christ. And if you have any questions, what about what happened today, you can always come talk to me. I mean, it was a little bit more lengthy than that, but basically.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:52:57] So we don't get it. He doesn't call me and discuss it with me because he doesn't know how to do it. Because we're like, yeah, right. Like, it's. It's chaos. Right. It's emotional chaos. Like, it's.

John Dehlin [03:53:10] But yeah, I wonder if the bishop felt like he had already talked to you. Like, you should have been satisfied with your original conversations.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:53:18] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [03:53:18] You know what I mean.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:53:19] Yeah, probably.

John Dehlin [03:53:20] But you weren't. Weren't. But he didn't give you decent answers.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:53:23] Yeah, but there were no conversations.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:53:25] I mean, after the walk.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:53:27] Oh, yeah. Like, I don't know. I just. I didn't get answers to my questions. I was sincerely asking for explanations about the doctrine, about the history. Who can I talk to? You don't want to talk. You don't want to talk. The seventies. She doesn't have a clue. Like, the wife, like, what's going on? I'm still a Mormon, still a member. I moved here. Like, I mean, I'm married for eternity in this church. What does that even mean? But we're further apart than ever before. Like, we're struggling. She's navigating her. I know how. You know, I'm going with, like, it's just chaos.

John Dehlin [03:54:06] And I guess if we're talking about Christ and Jesus. A couple words that come to my mind. Seems like Jesus asked his followers to be long suffering and to go the extra mile and to love your enemies and to do good for them who offend you. Did you feel like that's how the Mormon Church leaders responded to your crisis? By being long suffering, by going the extra mile, and by loving you as an enemy? What's your answer to that?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:54:40] No, they didn't show any effort. Like, it's just not. Like, it's not worth explaining. So of course I took it personally because it hurt me so bad to be confronted with all of these facts for months. Right? And I'm like, dying inside. But just the natural flow within me is I want the truth and nothing else. I love you guys. I don't blame it on new members. I blame it on the leadership more and more because they're leading this church. They say they're called of God, but they can't even talk to me.

John Dehlin [03:55:14] And even the bishops and stake presidents don't know how to answer your questions. They don't know the answers, of course.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:55:18] Yeah, it is interesting. Like, anytime I would go to church by myself, they'd all want to know, how is Miti doing? Where is he? What's he been up to? It's like everyone asks about him, but then when he comes and actually wants to share with you, this is what actually has been going on with me. I know you've all been asking, how doing? I'm gonna give you my honest testimony of where I'm at right now. It was just like, actually, we don't want to know what's going on with you, you know, and. And also in his defense, anyone that was, like, disturbed personally by that, he did make a few phone calls and apologize to, like, the boy who was baptized. I didn't know it was your big day. Let me, like, I'm proud of you. You know, he tried to make amends the best he could.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:55:54] I called people sharing a testimony, but I can't change my testimony. It's mine and yours is yours.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:56:02] But let's fast forward now to the next month. His brother's in town from Europe.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:56:06] No, but they finally called me. Oh, okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:56:08] Yeah, yeah. It happens again.

John Dehlin [03:56:09] Yeah. So is this before the Kerma Conchi letter?

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:56:12] Yes, this is what triggers the Kerma Conky letter. So then the next fast testimony meeting in July.

John Dehlin [03:56:17] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:56:17] By now his brother's in town. Do you want to talk about it?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:56:21] Yeah. He comes, like I said. Said I'm about To go. Do you want to go?

John Dehlin [03:56:26] This is your. Was he a believer at this point, your brother?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:56:28] So. So, like, just deconstructing his own way. Still staying with Joseph, trying to figure out. But he knows that the church is corrupt. He knows that the church, you know, is. That's. That's not of Christ. He knows that the leadership is rotten. Like, that's. So he's trying to figure out where. Where's the. Where's the gap.

John Dehlin [03:56:47] So you're no longer believing. Brother comes into town and you think, I know, let's go back to the church. Let's go back to church.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:56:53] And I'm like, let's do a third super disruptive divorce papers now or later. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [03:56:59] So what was your idea with your brother? To do what?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:57:03] No, like, we just. I didn't. I didn't intend to go. I just wanted to go to a meet, like, to sit down and to. It wasn't, like, disrupting more or like, you know what I mean? Are you going to testify? And he said, no, I don't think so. We sit in the back in the pew. Like, pretty much some people saw us.

John Dehlin [03:57:24] Like, y' all weren't gonna bear your testimony. Again, not.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:57:27] I mean, not me. I didn't intend to.

John Dehlin [03:57:30] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:57:30] Okay. But then my brother is next to me, and, like, he's looking at the app, the church app, you know, and looking for some verses or whatever, right? And I'm like, so are you going up? I'm, like, kind of surprised. And he said, I think so usually

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:57:46] how it goes, right? You feel prompted.

John Dehlin [03:57:48] He was moved.

Sara Lakner Bevc [03:57:49] He was moved by the.

Margi Dehlin [03:57:50] God. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:57:51] The moment we enter and sit down, my friend Bishop is now here today. He's up there opening the meeting. And he looks purple cut mouth. He starts stuttering. I felt so bad for him.

John Dehlin [03:58:10] Him.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [03:58:11] He knew exactly what will happen. Like, he got lost. Everyone saw that, knew that. So he opens the pulpit, and my brother starts going up immediately as he stands up, people from the right. No, sorry, sorry. Let's go back. Just quickly. The bishop sees us. Probably things were coming up, up. We're going to do a show again. He says, yeah. So we'll start with the testimonies of our missionaries. Yeah. Then brother, this and this will give his testimony. Then sister this and this will give her testimony. So. Oh, there it is. They're ready. They're ready for us. They start coming up. My brother stands up and goes and sits next on the palace pulpit next to all of these people. Okay. So they start sharing the testimony. The two Missionaries, the whatever, right? And it's starting to be his turn. I stand up and I go and I sit. I sit on the. On the benches behind, too. Just like, it just pulled me. My brother is up there. Like, we're together, right? Because he was shocked from what happened when I explained to him. Like, he's. He has no goal of, like, doing any scene. Like, nothing. He wants to smooth things out, right? And it's finally his turn. He gets up and he's. He brings up, like, Martin Luther and the thesis. Like, you know, and just saying in a manner. Like, I heard it was like, three sentences in. And he says, like, yeah, I'm. I'm visiting. But I heard, like, there were some issues with my brother here. Like, a month ago. Boom. Mic goes off. As soon as he mentioned publicly that he's my brother, everyone knew the mic needs to go off. And that just. It just flipped, like, in my. Like, I said, what are you doing?

John Dehlin [04:00:10] You said that audibly so people, oh,

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:00:12] I'm sitting there, I'm looking at it. I said, what are you doing? Turn his mic back on right now.

John Dehlin [04:00:16] Oh, wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:00:17] How dare you do that? Really? You're doing that? You're going to release the meeting for the second time.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:25] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:00:25] Like, my brother standing up there, like, what is going on? Like, he's not aggressive. He's not violent. He's kind of, you know, he's just turns to me, what's. You know. And I said, turn his mic back on right now. And already there's a guy in the corner from the stake presidency pulling out his phone and filming me. And that triggered me even more. I said, do you want to take that phone away? I literally kind of started being loud, stood up. And I said, what's the problem here? Isn't this a testimony meeting? What is wrong? The people are witnessing this, like, the congregation for the second time.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:01:02] It's like they already dismissed it, though.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:01:04] They dismiss it, like, in the way again, like, they dismissed the meeting.

John Dehlin [04:01:07] So they told everyone to go home.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:01:08] Exactly.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:01:09] Go home this time, just to the second hour now. Go to your classes. Don't go home, but leave here and this meeting's over. Go to your classes, you know?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:01:18] And I'm like. And the bishop told my friend, I said, what are you doing? Give him the mic back. And then I stood up. I said, like, I mean, it just, like, the feelings were, like, just high, right? And I said, shame on all of you. You have little faith.

John Dehlin [04:01:35] And this is, like, within. Within a Mormon context, I'm sure there's Ex Mormons that are like, yeah, way to go.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:01:43] Of course.

John Dehlin [04:01:43] But within a believing Mormon context, this is.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:01:46] This is horrible.

John Dehlin [04:01:47] This is like social terrorism. This is like the most violent, socially violent type of exchange.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:01:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:01:55] I've almost ever heard in a Mormon sacrament meeting context. Not. Not to shame you, not judging at all. I'm just like umpire calling balls and stratas.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:02:05] Okay. In a Mormon context, what I'm to say, it's just not allowed. You don't do this.

John Dehlin [04:02:10] No. This is socially violent in a Mormon context. And you had every right to feel the way you felt. And no judgment. It's just. I'm just trying to process it as a believer in the pews or even

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:02:24] a non believer as the wife at home.

John Dehlin [04:02:26] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:02:28] It was just like.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:02:31] Yeah. We walk out again. It's kind of the same thing. We talk outside. The bishop comes and says, hey. You know, he said, you didn't even let me talk. So my brother's talking to him. What?

John Dehlin [04:02:40] You know, like, yeah, I am surprised that the bishop didn't reach out to you that whole month between those two testimony meetings.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:02:49] But he did right after, kind of,

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:02:50] I think, like, he really noticed.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:02:53] Of course not.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:02:53] I don't have any.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:02:53] Of course not. I wouldn't have gone up.

John Dehlin [04:02:56] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:02:56] Like, it's. It's an unended story. Like, it's. It's.

John Dehlin [04:02:59] I'm surprised the Stake president nor the bishop reached out to you and said, let's have a meeting. No, let me address your concerns.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:03:07] Well, afterwards, you did just to touch back with your brother.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:11] You said your brother was surprised, Right. At what happened to you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:03:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:15] Is that because of. Is there. How do I want to ask this? I feel like. Is that. Because culturally, is there a difference in the level of control around what's said? Like, you kind of started talking about this a little bit like, that you had people come in that maybe would go off. Right. That would go up and maybe not say all the rote conditioning things, and that was something that could happen. I'm just curious with your brother, if your brother really felt like, the intensity, the level of control about what was being said. Your experience of the ward in Utah, if he was surprised because actually it felt quite different to the experience of, let's say, being in Slovenia or.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:04:10] Right, right. That's a very good question. Because he was navigating his own deconstruction in a way. Right.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:16] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:04:16] Found himself, like, somewhere, like, halfway not knowing how to. He knew that he doesn't want the church anymore and that it's of man, not of God. But he still believes in God. He still believed in a way that Joseph did start this church, but it was taken away from him in a way, from Brigham, whatever. However we want to, like, continue, you know, from Joseph on. Right. And just the doctrines, you know, they didn't match up anymore, you know, the policies introduced and changing constantly. So he came with a. He's actually compassionate with me because we talk a lot on the phone, you know, continent to continent. But he's. In his own way, you know, he understands my way. He said, yeah, I understand. Like, I know.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:05:06] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:05:06] How could that be? How is it? That's not. That's not of God. But I leave him because I have my life here. I need to save my marriage. Like, I need to decide what I'm gonna do with all of this, you know, regardless of what my brother is doing. But we're still connected. Right.

Margi Dehlin [04:05:21] But I guess my question is more around if you're. If there's a cultural layer with your brother feeling like. Did you say that your brother was really surprised and didn't feel as to what happened to slow me.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:05:37] He was totally shocked.

Margi Dehlin [04:05:38] And so I guess what I'm asking is, was there less control in the meetings, Testimony meetings in Slovenia? Could people, for example, say. I'll tell you, at testimony meetings, in some branches I've been in. In America, people say some things. And I've been in testimony meetings where people have said things that were not in line with, let's just say, church doctrine or. And so there's some variability, I guess I'm trying to get at. If you and your brother actually grew up in a different norm of control conditioning around testimony meetings where people have expressed a larger variety of opinions. People are in different mental health places. People are in different. And it's. It's a decision. Right. Of how to treat people in that moment.

John Dehlin [04:06:38] Or the church is identical in Slovenia than it is Utah.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:42] I don't know.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:06:42] That's what I'm trying to explore through the lens.

John Dehlin [04:06:45] Which is it?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:06:46] No, no, no. It's. It's. It's same. Like, we would shut down the person in Slovenia, too. Yeah, sorry.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:06:51] Like, same. But there's still people saying kind of off the charts things over there. I just don't think it would have been as aggressive.

John Dehlin [04:06:58] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:06:59] Because you need people so much more. Because there's only 30 people. You cannot juggle with people here. Lochner is going to be missing. Okay. Do you know what I mean? We got to save this word. Kick him out. Don't talk to him. Whatever it takes. Just don't let him infest our world. Right.

Margi Dehlin [04:07:18] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:07:19] I would say, like, Boro is really a gentle speaker, and I don't think that. And I think he had the intention truly to like, smooth things over. Like, guys, calm down. He's not so bad. It was just like, questions are good in a manner. Right. He was saying, questions are, Christ asked you to knock and he will answer. So he was trying to encourage smoothing over, but really it just kind of like unraveled it all again. So in his benefit, he's a gentle man and he wasn't trying to be. And he, like, knows the customs of the church. He was a missionary in Utah for two years. Right. So he, like, saw how it's done here, but he really just had every intention of just smoothing it over. From my understanding, not to speak for him, but it just kind of blew up in his face again. And then it obviously escalated once you were triggered in defense of your brother.

John Dehlin [04:08:03] Yeah. So what happened next? Just a high level.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:06] The cops get called.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:08:08] So. No, you have a meeting actually with the stake president that Sunday.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:11] Oh, that was before.

John Dehlin [04:08:12] Same Sunday.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:08:13] Yeah. You had him.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:14] Oh, he calls me in. Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:08:16] And that's when he threatens you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:17] So that's the first action from their side actually calling me in. For me violating, disrupting the meetings, it's like dripping over the edge. Right.

John Dehlin [04:08:27] Had you ever had a conversation with the stake president about your doubts, about your questions?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:32] Never before the meeting, they called me in.

John Dehlin [04:08:35] That's mind blowing.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:36] That is mind blowing.

Margi Dehlin [04:08:36] Mind blowing.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:08:37] But was he there after the opposing? No, See, he wasn't part of the.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:41] Oh, he was there. Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:08:41] Okay. So he was there.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:42] He said, he promised me, we'll talk. And then month went by and a month went by.

John Dehlin [04:08:47] Did he ever.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:49] After me opposing? There is basically no.

John Dehlin [04:08:52] That's mindboggling to me. Like, my stake president spent a year.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:08:56] Wow.

John Dehlin [04:08:56] Meeting with me weekly.

Margi Dehlin [04:08:58] Wow.

John Dehlin [04:08:58] I didn't do what you did, but I was doing a podcast globally, which some would say is worse.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:09:03] Right.

John Dehlin [04:09:04] But he spent a year with me, counseling with me, talking to decide whether or not I could baptize my son. But that was a lot of time. Now the second stake president sent me a letter to excommunicate me and we had never met before. So I guess I've experienced both. I've experienced a long suffering stake president and I've experienced one that had a job to do and he was just going to do the job.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:09:28] He basically.

Margi Dehlin [04:09:29] He did say to us directly I will be the one to excommunicate you before we really even said anything. Yeah. Wow.

John Dehlin [04:09:37] Okay, so this stake president was the latter type where he just. He called you to a meeting, that second sacrament meeting day in July?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:09:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:09:49] And said what?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:09:50] I came in on my bike, rode the bike five minutes, like into his office. They were all sitting down already. Stake, presidency. You know what they say, Just pretty much like, you know, what happened that is like out of, you know, I mean, you. You just violated like, basically the whole culture. The. The meeting, the. The people, the. Do you know that there were peace?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:10:16] Everything.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:10:16] Peace, everything. You know, why? What's the pro. You know, I said, you didn't talk to me for so long. Like, this is the first. First meeting you call me in and of three men are sitting here and they're going to like, what. What are you going to do now? Like, can we finally talk? So I kept bringing up the doctrinal issues. The more I'm bringing that up, the more they're like, shutting it down and they're going solely, like, to my actions.

John Dehlin [04:10:42] Just list them. Polygamy. Don't. Don't go into details, but just polygamy. What else were you bringing up?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:10:46] Priesthood ban, like, you know, the priest of people. You know, first vision. First vision. Like, I mean, name it. Like, what did I not bring up? You know, like Pullman, like, re. Edited, like, version of his General conference talk. General conference talk. You know, stuff like this. Everything.

John Dehlin [04:11:03] Stuff in the CES letter. Stuff in the LDS discussion.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:05] It's very interesting because I've never read the CES letter.

John Dehlin [04:11:08] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:09] You know, I've never read it.

John Dehlin [04:11:10] Problems with the Book of Mormon. Problems of the Book of Abraham, of course.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:13] Historicity. Everything.

John Dehlin [04:11:14] Everything. Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:14] Like, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:11:16] So you. You have that meeting, you try and talk about issues.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:18] They do shut down. It's all they want to talk about. Me violating the meetings.

John Dehlin [04:11:24] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:25] Right.

John Dehlin [04:11:25] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:25] Turning up like, as a. You know.

John Dehlin [04:11:27] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:28] As an apostate or whatever. He qualifies me. It be. It becomes heated. Right.

John Dehlin [04:11:33] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:33] Then the counselor says, hey, you should have more respect for the leaders. Like, you don't. When they turn your mic off, you should sit down.

Margi Dehlin [04:11:40] Down.

John Dehlin [04:11:41] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:11:42] I said, really? Because they turned your mic off and you know how it feels. I said, really? And then the other one is just like sitting in the corner. He's like, not really, you know, like. And then the stake president kind of cuts it and says, like, this is too much contention. This is not of. This is not of spirit. Like, he gets challenged personally. I Said because I call him in front of, to his, to his counselor, whatever. Call him by his name. Yeah, okay. And it, it starts getting like really personal. Like he can't handle it anymore, you know, because I'm in there without everything, you know. And then he says, I will share testimony now. And he starts by, I know. I let him finish, you know. And I said, I know, Brian. You know, you know more than 8 billion people out there. The fact is that I don't know anymore. And you have all the answers. Do you even need anyone? Do you even need God? Because you know everything. I know nothing right now. And you're not interested and you're not willing to talk. And he kind of broke the meeting and invited me to read the Book of Mormon again. Start like reading from the very beginning. I said, I did that. I did that for so long, long. And it's not about the Book of Mormon, it's about you treating people the way you treat me. It ended up bad. The next thing is, I think that

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:13:08] they also said like, we need you promise. They need. They said, we need.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:13:12] You're not going to do this.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:13:12] You're not going to do this anymore. And you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:13:15] And I said, I don't know. And I said, I'm sorry, Brian, I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:13:19] You couldn't.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:13:20] I don't know what I'm going to do today, tomorrow, the next week, the next month. I don't know. I'm figuring out who I am, who is God, who is Christ. I don't know what I'm going to do. But you know for sure because you say you know.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:13:32] But then he also, you know it all. From my understanding of what you've told me, he like brought up your immigration status.

Margi Dehlin [04:13:41] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:13:42] Being a green card holder and kind of using that as leverage against him and threatening.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:13:46] Are you even a citizen? What is your status? I said, why are you asking me that? What's got that to do with anything? You know, because you, if you keep doing this, you might be subject to arrest. We'll have to call the. So that was actually ending the meeting in, in that manner. I said, okay. So he said, what is it? Like I said, I don't know. Let's end up here. Let's see. Let's see what happens. Let's see what happens.

John Dehlin [04:14:10] And we know what happened because on July 8th you get a letter from Curt McConkie, the churches famous law firm. And I'll just, I'll read it really quickly.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:14:19] Well, just to know if you want to go chronologically. That was on a Sunday. The next Saturday before, an opportunity for me to go back again. Cops come to our home and ask for Mitia and his brother.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:14:33] Oh, my brother was taking a nap. I wake him up, hey, cops are here for you and me.

John Dehlin [04:14:37] Whoa.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:14:37] By the way, he's like, just here, you know, just regular vacation, you know, not a citizen. Just on your 90 day visa, you know.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:14:46] And they're issuing a no trespassing order. And I said, would you tell me like, who, who issued that? Like, was it the branch president or the stake president? Oh, I don't know.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:14:56] Bishop.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:14:57] Sorry, sorry, Bishop. And they didn't give me an answer. So I call up the bishop and say, hey, did you, did you call the cops on us? He said, yeah, I did. So were you told to do so though? Or is this your, is this your decision? Is this your inspiration, whatever? And he starts crying. And I said, you shouldn't be crying. You're called of God. Do you believe you're called of God? If you made that decision, then it's the right one. Then don't worry about it because I don't worry. Why are you crying, brother? Because of this and that and I don't know. It's so hard. No, absolutely. But like, what do I do? You stepped in these shoes. You're call of God. You shouldn't be worried. God's going to lead you through all of this. Right.

John Dehlin [04:15:45] So the cops, do they do anything?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:15:47] No, no, no. They just issued the order and said you can't be on church property.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:15:51] And then they backed it up with the letter.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:15:54] He said they just, you just can't be on church, like local property here, like the, our personal chapel. He wasn't allowed on that property. And then the bishop did say, like, you could expect the letter coming soon as well, like a follow up. And so, yeah, then three days later on Wednesday, we got that letter.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:16:13] But that's an unofficial letter. That's not from police department, that's not from the state, you know, this is from Karema. There's no signature.

John Dehlin [04:16:20] Church's law firm.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:16:21] Yeah, but there's no signature. Yeah, like there's no people, like. Yeah, there's no date when, when that would end. There's no conditions that. Nothing like it's.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:16:29] Yeah, sorry, let's just read it first.

John Dehlin [04:16:32] And it says, you know, your name. Mr. Lakner. We represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This letter to us inform you that you are prohibited from attending any meeting or entering any property owned, controlled or associated with the Church, wherever located, including but not limited to the church's chapels, stake center, seminaries, institutes, headquarters, temples, mission homes, et cetera. You're prohibited from contacting any leader, volunteer, missionary, or employee of the church, whether by phone, electronically, in person, or via third party. You are also prohibited from entering any property owned by or controlled by our law firm or from contacting our law firm. That's weird.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:17:11] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [04:17:13] You can't even respond to the law firm writing you, so I guess they're wanting you to get a lawyer if they're going to have any further contact with you. The only exception to the foregoing limitations is that church leaders may reach out to you in the future to discuss a membership council. In other words, your excommunication. Their reaching out does not constitute permission for further correspondence, nor does it negate the efforts of the trespass. So they can contact you, but you can't contact them.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:17:43] And basically, I can't talk to my wife because she's still a member.

John Dehlin [04:17:45] Oh, that's interesting.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:17:46] She's a volunteer. I can.

John Dehlin [04:17:48] And your kids are, of course, to what they're writing, and your brother is still a member. And that's interesting. Your neighbors are all Mormons. You know what I mean? Like, that's interesting. You are prohibited from responding to church leaders following any membership council. That's interesting. Your immediate compliance is required if you come onto the property described above or contact leaders, volunteers, missionaries, workers, or a law firm in violation of these restrictions, Church leaders or are our will call police, and you may be subject to arrest and prosecution, as well as additional restrictions for trespass and harassment.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:18:23] Very nice.

John Dehlin [04:18:25] Really quickly. If the church had actually, if your bishop or stake president had heard you ask all the questions, did their best to answer them, and said, sorry, these are the best answers we have. We see why you don't believe the church anymore. But, you know, we spent five, ten hours with you trying to resolve your concerns. Do you think you would have approached it differently?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:18:49] Oh, yeah, for sure. But it never happened.

John Dehlin [04:18:52] You just felt disrespected and ignored.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:18:55] Basically, the only meeting I got, it was confrontational because they're not willing to address the things that matter. They're just qualifying my actions, which are consequences, says of you not talking to me. So where will it end? I would probably end. You know, I didn't want to leave the church. And Sarah was like, mithya, come on, you want to leave church? Like, yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:19:19] It was just ironic because at that point, like, even though I was on my very silent journey, I was more out in Ways, like, I wasn't wearing garments anymore. He was still wearing garments for a lot. And like, it was so weird that he was so. So not where I just. It was just interesting that you were so vocally and verbally out and, you know, wanting to set things straight, but still in. In ways that I was not in. And I was just that. Anyways, but when I. When I read this letter, like, I just fell apart. I couldn't believe that this was actually something from the church. Like, I couldn't believe that that was something from the building across the street from the temple, you know, downtown. I couldn't believe that this was to my family. It's like, I know he pushed buttons. I know that it was culturally, like, not okay, but I'm like, this is threatening our livelihood of our family, like, with arrestment. And like, basically it's putting him in a corner with his hands tied behind his back and a, you know, duct tape across his mouth. Like, he's not allowed to talk or be around anyone. You know, I'm like, he has zero. Like, they're just trying to shut him out. And so I, like, honestly, I fell apart. I felt. I was crying and I took that letter and I went straight to the bishop. And I walked in, I said, can I please talk to you? And he goes, yeah. And I'm like, no. Like, somewhere private. So we went downstairs and I said, do you know what this is? Like, please read this. And I threw it in his face, basically. And he was like, oh, yeah, I have a copy of this letter. And I was like, you have a copy of this letter? Like, you know about this. Like, I couldn't believe that the church could write something to me. It was just so harsh and disturbing. It was just so wrong, you know,

John Dehlin [04:21:04] even though he had done some acts, pretty radical for Mormon, I get that.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:21:11] But I just couldn't believe that. Like, I don't. And maybe I was wrong to think this way, but I really couldn't believe that it had gone this far.

John Dehlin [04:21:17] No, I see both sides, honestly, I do too.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:21:19] But I still could not believe that it went to this far to come from church. And thank you. And it was so disturbing to me that I just said, like, why couldn't you have just, like, talked to him? Like, why did you involve police? Like, why did you involve this? Like, he's like, sarah, this is just protocol of the church. Like, if you call the police, you have to send this letter. And I'm like, well, that doesn't make it any better. Like, it still. It Just opened my eyes to how. How the church functions behind the doors, you know, with their. Like, honestly, I feel like it was playing really dirty, you know, And I just said, I. I don't want to be a part of any organization that can treat its members this way, especially, like, our family, like you. He's like, well, I'm just really sad that. That you don't feel our love. And I'm like, yeah, are you kidding me? I mean, I lost it. I was not good. His kids could probably hear me. Like I was talking really. Like, it was like I had been silent through all of this, you know, And I just blew. I just blew. I couldn't take it. I was like, this is. This is absolutely insane that this is what it's coming to, you know? So I was just a mess that day. I just was crying. I went to a nail appointment right after. I just cried.

John Dehlin [04:22:32] So, I mean, I'm of slipped minds. On the one hand, I'm like, you had every reason to be angry and upset that you had given so much to the church, joined it under false pretense, given so much. And then when you had legitimate concerns, you weren't taken seriously and were ignored. And you literally relocated your family out of devotion to this church. And then you find out it's not true and you're disrespected. Yeah. Cause a ruckus within the law, because that's commensurate with how severe the situation is. And on the other hand, I'm like, what the freak did you expect? You disrupt two sacrament meetings, you threaten everybody's testimonies, and you say you won't stop. Yeah. You're going to get a letter saying, cease and desist. Stop disrupting these meetings and everybody's church experience. Figure out a way to get the stake president and the bishop to talk to you or to go up the flag of church authority without disrupting multiple sacrament meetings. Three a stake conference conference, and two sacrament meetings you disrupted in socially violent ways. So I can see it. What do you think, Margi?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:23:45] Is that how you personally feel like?

John Dehlin [04:23:47] I'm just saying that's when I put it in my Mormon brain, when I process this story through my Mormon brain. It's interesting because some would say, because Mormon Stories podcast, they did it 10 years before I was excommunicated. But some would say Mormon Stories was less disruptive because I wouldn't go to sacrament meeting and disrupt things. I would just keep things to myself, kind of keep it quiet. But then I was telling the world. But Then the podcast was opt in. You only listened if you wanted to. I wasn't like forcing the podcasts in people's face. So on the one hand, Mormon stories was worse because it was going out to tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people and really disrupting waking up their lives once they chose it. On the other hand, yours was so personal. It was face to face, direct in their face, when they just came to enjoy sacrament meeting. And they were hearing for three meetings. Such violent social disruption. Like, it's. Anyway, that's me processing.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:24:52] Right, right, right. But like Sarah said before, if they only read me, let me read my whole testimony, what would happen? I'm trying to scare Skip and like, imagine. So I would finish my testimony, I would go home or sit down for the end of the meeting.

John Dehlin [04:25:06] Yeah. If they had let you read the whole thing.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:25:09] Exactly. If they didn't turn the mic off.

John Dehlin [04:25:11] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:25:11] Because up until then, like, okay, I disagree. I can oppose because you ask me. I'm not violating. I'm not being aggressive. I'm not yelling at people. I'm not sending messages. I'm not going behind leadership. Like, I want the leadership.

John Dehlin [04:25:25] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:25:26] That's all I want. I want all the people. I don't want to bring the church down. I want to stay in this church and hope that is the true thing. I gave it 15 years. I'm locked into this church.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:25:40] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [04:25:41] And you're being very direct, like, you're pro. I was hiding to the membership my true feelings and thoughts, at least within a church context.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:25:50] Right.

John Dehlin [04:25:50] You were just being open and honest and very direct.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:25:53] Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:25:53] Not offensive, just direct.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:25:55] And I was driven in that way, if I knew how to be more like political, politically correct, you know, but like, we've seen that. Like, I don't know, like, it just happened. Like, I didn't.

Margi Dehlin [04:26:06] Yeah. And I feel like to me personally, I feel like you were known in the ward.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:26:11] You.

Margi Dehlin [04:26:11] You had taught elders quorum. You weren't hiding necessarily. Some of the ways you were. You were feeling you were less directly. What would I say? Like a disruptor to the system at large and the meetings. But I do feel like you were identified in the ward for what. And it did affect our kids. And if you add, you weren't. This is the problem with comparing, you know, he was directly confrontational to the powers that be to the system. But you also had newspaper articles, you know, local newspapers saying what was going on, and national newspaper, like, it's. None of it is great. And that's why, for Me, I fall on like, what does a healthy system look like? What does healthy activism and disruption look like? What happens when you disrupt and what do healthy systems do when you disrupt? What do you. That's where I like to kind of interplay with this as opposed to the

John Dehlin [04:27:17] truth is, in Mormonism, there's no legitimate way to, to show concern or to confront the misinformation and the problematic truth claims. There's no way to do that in a way that doesn't end badly for you. Yeah, right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:27:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:27:38] There's no good way. Even if you handle it all behind the scenes, you're just going to be ostracized and dismissed.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:27:45] But that's because church doesn't take the role of being active in these conversations. They don't create a space.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:27:51] I feel like your intention was like you were trying to create a space where the church would have to be accountable and show up in a conversation. So you were like, I'm not going to let you get away with just sweeping it under the rug. I'm going to make you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:28:03] This is serious. This is confronting Christ. And you're saying you're the Church of Christ. How. Like, let's talk about it at least. I'm very concerned. Right.

John Dehlin [04:28:13] I absolutely believe that the severity of this situation warrants your, your decisions. It's just culturally highly disruptive.

Margi Dehlin [04:28:23] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:28:24] But it, the stakes are so high that your actions from that point of view are absolutely justified.

Margi Dehlin [04:28:31] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:28:32] I mean, yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:28:34] See, it was. Yeah. And I just felt like I was in the middle of the. Of two horrible storms. I like, yeah, I didn't like what he was doing and I hated the way that the church was responding. I was like, talk about being Christ. Like, yeah, like you're not at all tolerating anything at all. Like if anything, you're just creating more fear. And again, I just, I began to see the red flags of the system being like, wow, they're protecting the name of the church over his well being, over the well being of the entire congregation. Because that was traumatizing for anyone that there to see, to be dismissed as a whole and to see such, you know, heated discussion up there. It was like, man, everything is second to having the church name protected. And heaven forbid we ever say we have lost trust. I mean, it was really in essence all he said that set everything off.

John Dehlin [04:29:23] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:29:24] Publicly.

The Disciplinary Council and Excommunication

John Dehlin [04:29:25] So the next letter, we're not going to go deep into these documents because I've got so many. And, and we're already four and a half hours in. So. So the Next letter I have is October 4th, where you're told about your disciplinary council. What did you do between receiving the Curtin McConkie letter in July. In early July, and your receipt of this letter in early October, that they were going to have a disciplinary council? Did you obey the.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:29:51] No, I didn't go back.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:29:52] No. There was zero, actually.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:29:53] Oh. I didn't step on church property.

John Dehlin [04:29:55] Property. Did you keep trying to disrupt. Did you try and disrupt any other way?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:29:58] Silence. Just silence.

John Dehlin [04:30:00] Okay.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:30:00] We just did our own thing.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:30:01] Ghost town.

John Dehlin [04:30:02] Like, how did the neighborhood treat you? Had the war.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:30:04] Oh, there is no neighborhood anymore.

John Dehlin [04:30:06] What? What do you mean?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:30:07] There is no, like.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:30:08] No, I just.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:30:09] No one talks to you. I don't see anyone in the street. Like, there's, like, I'm pushing the stroller. We have a baby. I'm going around every evening. No one's talking. It feels like everyone's watching me, you know? Totally. Like, exiled before excommunicated. That's how it felt. Toxic. I have to mention, there were cars pulling up to our building. And I'm like, Sarah, looking through the blinds, like, what is this car doing here? Like, there's a light in the car. Someone sitting in the car. I don't know this person. I can't see it. It's dark. I go out on the back door, go around the building, eventually trying to go past the car.

John Dehlin [04:30:47] Car.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:30:47] The car drives away.

John Dehlin [04:30:49] And where were they parked?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:30:50] In front of our home.

John Dehlin [04:30:52] Yeah, in front of your house.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:30:53] Yeah, but we were in, like, a fourplex, so it was like.

John Dehlin [04:30:56] So the church was probably sending security to kind of monitor you something.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:31:00] I don't know. It just was weird. Like, why would that car drive away? Be there for two hours, three? Like, we don't know. The car, it never pulls up there. There's a light inside. Someone's on the phone. Something is happening.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:31:10] And it's a dead end, by the way. We're at the end of a cul de sac. So, like, you are not down there to go out a different way.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:31:15] So we were monitored. Something like, you know, on the day

John Dehlin [04:31:18] of my excommunication, there was a car parked in front of my house with somebody surveilling me.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:31:24] That's so weird.

John Dehlin [04:31:25] Yeah, that for sure happened. No, that totally happened with me, too.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:31:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:31:30] The only time I saw it was the day of my excommunication, but they were surveilling me for sure. You know, a guy with, like, a wire thing in his ear? Okay, so you get a letter in October summoning you to A disciplinary council. It said the reasons were, you have repeatedly acted in clear and deliberate public opposition to the church, its doctrine, its policies, or its leaders. You've shown a pattern of intentionally working to weaken the faith and activity of the church members. And you continue to espouse false teachings after having been corrected by your priesthood leaders. Now, that's a little bit weird, right?

Margi Dehlin [04:32:15] I'm not feeling really well.

John Dehlin [04:32:17] It seems like they're listing the criteria for apostasy to decide whether you had violated any of those. But also, you could look at that and say you're being accused of those things.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:32:28] Exactly. Before any. Any serious debate happened. Nothing. Right. Like, all my. Yeah. All of my wishes, like, to discuss the doctrines and get the answers. Like, we didn't even get to that. It's so. It's so funny. Like, it's. We never got to the very thing that disturbed me.

John Dehlin [04:32:53] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:32:53] Because.

John Dehlin [04:32:54] Okay, the first one. Repeatedly acting clear, deliberate public opposition to the church's darkness or its policies or its leaders. All you did was vote opposed.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:33:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:33:03] Which they invite you to do.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:33:04] And I said that I lost trust in the LDS leadership, which.

John Dehlin [04:33:07] And then they stopped you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:33:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:33:09] So it's not like you had totally, like, read the CES letter in Sacramenti.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:33:13] No, I didn't even touch. Never, ever. Like, I mentioned it in the testimony that we didn't read. Right. Like, but I mentioned the issues that I have with the church, but we never touched, like, you know, on a subject. Specific. Specific. Right.

John Dehlin [04:33:28] And then it said you were trying to intentionally weaken the faith and activity of church members. It seemed like you were trying to get answers from the leaders.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:33:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:33:37] I didn't get a sense that you were trying to mess with the faith of the members.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:33:42] I'm not walking door to door and saying, hey, you know, but even saying,

John Dehlin [04:33:46] if you've lost faith, that's you expressing what you're feeling. It's not necessarily. I guess by doing it publicly, they're saying you're intentionally trying to weaken the faith of the members.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:33:59] Maybe I posted something, you know, social media. I was like, more and more, like, you know, because I. I needed to channel, like, my. You know, just like, no one's talking

Margi Dehlin [04:34:09] to me, but I've been in meetings where part of testimonies is sharing. You're really struggling with your faith.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:34:16] Or.

Margi Dehlin [04:34:17] I. I've been in meetings like that, so I don't know how to feel about that.

John Dehlin [04:34:22] Okay. And then the last one is espousing false teachings. I don't think you're espousing false Teachings,

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:34:30] probably they're referring, I don't know, to the very first message that was sent from here to my members in Slovenia, you know, to the Congress, you know, no false teaching. I never taught anything publicly.

John Dehlin [04:34:45] False teaching would be like.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:34:46] Like, yeah. Having my own claims. This is.

John Dehlin [04:34:49] Yeah. Like polygamy is good or.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:34:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:34:51] Or the Catholic Church is true or something. That's an affirmative belief. That's false doctrine.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:34:58] I was never that.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:35:00] When I'm found in space, when there's no claims and I'm pushing all the claims away and I'm just really genuinely

Margi Dehlin [04:35:08] asking, is it possible that this is kind of like a form letter?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:35:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a handbook.

John Dehlin [04:35:15] These are the criteria for apostasy.

Margi Dehlin [04:35:16] That is what it is feeling like

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:35:19] when you read it. It qualified me by the handbook. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:35:21] And then, interestingly, it goes on to say this I've never heard before. Given your recent behavior at church meetings, you are not invited to attend the disciplinary council in person. However, you may provide written statements from yourself and from persons who could provide relevant information. Following the membership council, you will be notified of the council's unified decision in writing. And then it basically says it hopes you will soften your heart, strengthen your faith in Jesus and return to full fellowship to Jesus. Huh.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:35:55] Strengthen your faith in Jesus when that is the actual cause of me asking questions.

John Dehlin [04:36:00] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:36:01] What would Jesus do?

John Dehlin [04:36:03] And I've never heard of someone being told they can't. I don't remember hearing someone being told they can't attend their own disciplinary council

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:36:11] because that's violation of the DNC Doctrine

John Dehlin [04:36:13] and Covenants in the process there.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:36:15] Their own scriptures. But also this was the consequence of, you know, the letter encompassed the fact that I was already, like, on no trespassing order, so I can't physically go there.

John Dehlin [04:36:29] Right. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:36:30] When I'm reaching out to him. Let's meet outside. Let's talk. Still, like, you know, I'm inviting the stake president at our home.

John Dehlin [04:36:38] Yeah. They could have done it at a neutral location.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:36:40] Oh, wherever. Come. I said my door is open. My home is open. Come and let's talk like brethren. Right.

John Dehlin [04:36:45] Like, you can't even ask them that because they said don't contact them.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:36:48] Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:36:49] So we don't have time, Sarah, to read. You wrote a letter to your stake president and the council members. Do you want to summarize? Summarize, rather than what you've already shared?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:36:57] Basically, I just said, president, since you know, my husband has been silenced. I am writing to you. I said, you don't really know who I am, because you haven't reached out to me through any of the things that have happened with my husband in church, or even when cops were sent to my home, or even when we received such a disturbing letter from Kerma Konkey. I said, I haven't heard a word from you yet. I'm here the whole, whole time. And I was like, you're going to be having a counsel regarding my husband. And that decision would affect my ceiling, my marriage ceiling in the temple that I worked my entire life for. And now a group of men who I've never met are going to cancel that without me being there, without my husband being there. I know it's a bit lengthy, but I basically poured out my heart saying, like. Like, it just seems so backwards that y' all would send cops first and set legal restraints before you would give him the space to speak for himself in a fair court. And I said, if he's not allowed to, then please allow his other half, who's part of this sealing deal, to represent him and his family, since this will affect my life as well.

Margi Dehlin [04:38:10] And your children.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:38:11] My children, yeah, our family as a whole. And so I had never spoken so directly, directly to a priesthood holder before, so I was really nervous to send it, but I had worked really, really hard on it. And of course, when he replied, it was just, well, he's basically caused all this drama himself, and it's his own case, you know, like, but we love you and hope that you can feel the love of Christ and find peace and all this. And I'm just like, this is so painful. Like, I've just. My voice was just completely dismissed. And that was another part of the whole thing for me, that you can pour your heart out and have all of the evidence and, you know, even like, Doctrine Covenants saying he has to be there, you know, at a council. You know, I'm like, it just seems so unchristlike to handle it this way. But in the end, it doesn't matter how much you've given. You can be easily or disposable. So.

John Dehlin [04:39:09] And we'll include all these letters in a PDF or something afterwards if you all want to get into them, because they're beautiful letters. We're just kind of short on time. And so then the stake president responds. And I'll just read a couple things really quickly. Sister Lakner, you know, thanks for your email. You left State Conference in April when, when Mitka began disrupt. Began disrupting the meeting with his noisy objections. When Elder Cheketts and I Met with him after the state conference meeting. We asked Mithya if you would like to join us. We indicated our desire to have you join us. He declined in your behalf. Since then, I've reached out and invited Mithya to come visit with me when he met with me and my counselors on July 2nd. So he's acting like he proactively reached out to you to talk to you. Of course, when in reality, he meets with you after your second disruption because he went a month without reaching out to you. Am I getting that right?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:40:14] Or is he bringing Sarah in? Like, when Sarah left at a state conference. I didn't know. I thought she went home by myself. We don't talk. We don't text. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't say anything.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:40:24] I responded to him on that saying, like, again, I would love for you to ask me personally. You don't have to go through my husband. I am my own person. You're welcome to ask me if I would like to talk, but I was never given that courtesy at all either. And also in regards to Mithya's. He said noisy. What behavior? Opposition. I said, we actually have footage of it. And he is standing up, which is visually, like, you know, visually alarming maybe, but he wasn't aggressive, and he spoke very calmly. I said it was. We have proof of that if you want to see it. Just to be reminded.

John Dehlin [04:40:59] He goes on to write, when he met with me and my counselors on July 2, we had asked him to consider the impact of his decisions on you and your family. Likewise, I understand that your bishop has met with you and counseled with you in media. He has heard you out and tried to minister to you when you have come to his home.

Margi Dehlin [04:41:20] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:41:21] And I said, please don't use the word minister, because what they did was not ministering.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:41:26] Minister to you.

John Dehlin [04:41:27] Yeah. You were not present when Mithya was so disruptive that the fast and testimony meeting he was in had to be terminated and the other scheduled meetings for that day had to be canceled and the members of your ward sent home early. Nor were you present when he and his brother caused a similar disruption the next month, complete with Mithia's brother yelling from the stand and Mitya yelling from the back of the chapel there, too. Mithya's behavior forced the termination of another set of meetings. Several members of the congregation are no longer attending out of fear of your husband and his unruly behavior toward them and their children. It is hard to imagine how hard this all is for you. You are in our Prayers. Wow.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:42:14] Like, just hearing it again, wow, it's just. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

John Dehlin [04:42:25] He ends by saying, sister Lakner, I continue to pray for you, for Mitya, you, your family, and now the many others that have been neglected, negatively affected by Mithya's unruly behavior. Ultimately, we desire all those affected to return to full participation with the saints as we together worship our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and strive to better emulate his perfect example. Sincerely, your stake president.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:42:51] I just said, you know, I don't think he was there for, like, the first meeting as well. He may have been there for the second. No, he wasn't there for either. He was called in.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:42:59] They called him over, like, also, Mike,

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:43:01] you also were not there for either. And I have also spoken to members who were present. I've spoken to the bishop. I think I. In understanding who my husband is, I think I can picture how it went down. And yes, it's not okay. But, you know, I just tried to say the way it was handled. Like, you keep wanting to blame everything on him, and he was part of the equation. But the church and the leadership definitely responded in a way that created, I believe, more trauma among the members than an example of Christlike behavior and tolerance.

John Dehlin [04:43:36] And on November 1, Mithya, you received a letter basically saying, the unified decision of the council, your disciplinary council was held with you not able to attend, and the unified decision of the council was to withdraw your membership from the church, effective immediately, which is another way of saying excommunicated. And they really didn't totally give reasons why, did they?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:44:02] I mean, yeah, like, there's no conclusion to it. Like, what happened at the discipline. You know, all they said is they

John Dehlin [04:44:09] considered you for those same reasons, acting in, you know, opposition to the church, you know, working a week in the faith and activity of other members and espousing false teachings after having been corrected. But they really didn't tell you why. But it was just. They didn't, like, your behavior, never had

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:44:29] a communication, so we had to go viral. Right. Like, I mean, it was the only way I needed to start telling my story. So. But now it is in one piece, so. But after that, like, fast forward, just two sentences. Like, I appealed to the first presidency to a year to come back. The most ridiculous thing is that you appeal to the First Presidency through the very state president who will send their response, their answer back to me.

John Dehlin [04:45:00] They wouldn't give me the letter from the First Presidency. They just told me what the letter said, but I didn't even get the letter.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:45:06] So what is this? How can this be sustained anywhere in the world in the 21st century?

John Dehlin [04:45:13] You're saying it's not just. It's not. Yeah, like, proper justice.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:45:18] It's just not human. Like, it's just.

John Dehlin [04:45:21] And your membership?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:45:26] I. Yeah, it's been kind of a. A private journey for me since then.

John Dehlin [04:45:30] Oh, you're not talking about that?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:45:32] No, I can't. I mean, yeah, I. I ended up removing my records this last summer. I've never said that out loud, really, but how did that feel for you? It was really scary.

Margi Dehlin [04:45:44] Yeah,

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:45:47] but I felt like, because it was scary, it was interesting that that's like, one of the main reasons I didn't want to stick with it, because I thought they are threatening me with so much to lose by taking away. But, like, they haven't been a safe place for me or my family for a long time. So it's like I am really, like, I'm just a really sensitive person. So I just felt like even like the energy of them being my leaders, even though I've disconnected myself from the church, was still, like, I felt like they had, like, this. I felt a bit claustrophobic still. I didn't feel like I was free from their grasps, you know, and so I just said for me to, like, you know, I have my own reasons of everything. And again, like, it's the emotional manipulation, it's everything, the shaming, but just the way I saw the church handle everything. And as we know, I wasn't super comfortable with what Mitu was doing. I understood his reasons behind it. I understood his heart. I knew it was coming off so, you know, not good in the eyes of the church and members and culture and everything. But even though I could see all of that, I still felt like they were just so aggressive in return, the way. So relentless, you know, and, yeah, so I just had to part ways, and I have peace with it now, you know, and I am all about. Just, like, I obviously haven't talked about this story much since it happened, so it's been interesting to review it again, and there's still feelings there and still mourning, but I'm really grateful for the life I have. And as much as I hated what he did, I felt like no one else in my personal circle would have ever pushed the buttons of the church the way he did. And so I would have never seen firsthand what can actually happen. And I've heard things like this in, you know, podcasts or whatever, and you're like, wow, there can be such Like a intense side of, you know, protect the church first and everything. But to experience it firsthand, I think it was really necessary for me. So I saw some true colors come out that I would have never otherwise. SCENE so as painful, as painful as it was and as much as, like, you know, it's been hard for us to navigate together through this journey. Like, I am grateful that it's happened because it completely changed my life. And now we're starting another chapter going back to Slovenia and it'll be good. Yeah, it'll be interesting, I should say. Who knows what it'll be. But do you feel like you, you

Life After Excommunication and Looking Forward

Margi Dehlin [04:48:18] both are still kind of deconstructing and processing this event with your community, with your ward members, with leadership? Do you feel like you've done some rebuilding or been able to feel this sense of like creating new life yet that has. How would you describe that? Still mourning a great deal, grieving a great deal. Is it both? How would you talk about it?

John Dehlin [04:48:49] It's.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:48:51] Yeah, real short. It's. I mean, I've deconstructed and I still am like the Mormonism. Right. But then we know how it takes you down to, like, to the whole Christianity, right?

John Dehlin [04:49:04] The Bible. Christianity, Bible.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:49:06] You know, the whole history, the meaning. You're back where I feel. Back where, Where, Where I was like when I was 19, 20, 25, you know, like, I'm starting again. Okay, we're here again. What is the purpose? Who are we?

Margi Dehlin [04:49:19] That's right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:49:20] Right. Why is Gaza happening and the whole world is shutting their eyes. Right. Where is God? I'm not even mad at politicians. Like, I mean, I am, I'm enraged, but like, where is God the Almighty, the all loving God seeing his kids? Do you know what I mean? Like, that that's where I am, right. And everything mixed with politics and the way you're like immersed into this culture, American culture, like, it's. You have to climb the ladders everywhere, every corner. It's career, it's church. It's like your local community. You have to be so prosperous if you're not that ambitious. Oh, what are you doing with your life?

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:50:01] Life, right.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:50:02] What am I doing? Trying to figure out, like, how I'm going to heal all of this pain and trauma that I'm seeing for the. And feeling like so lively. Like, for the first time in my life, I'm trying to save my marriage, trying to be the best dad that I can without religion, without too much politics. I'm trying to just be. Yeah, right, right. I'm trying to Know my wife for the first time in my life.

John Dehlin [04:50:31] Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:50:36] We have a lot of work to do. We're going back to work.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:50:39] Well, I mean, you know, anyone who gets married in church, you know, you think you have your reasons of why it's going to work out and be good. And then you realize when all of the foundation. That how we got together in the first place goes away, you really just. I mean, I feel like every couple looks like, do we still choose each other? Like, what is there between us that brought us together? That wasn't church.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:50:58] You know, what is our base? What is her base? What if we never met on the bus? Like, where we. You know, but now we are, and we have these beautiful children, and, like, I love Sarah because she's an amazing woman, but I have to let her get her identity back. The church stole from the very beginning.

Margi Dehlin [04:51:21] Yeah. And

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:51:24] honestly, I feel like this whole story, as, like, significant as it was for that one very acute time capsule, it was so intense. Honestly, I feel like what affects me more now, what I'm triggered by, by church more, is, like, when I hear about the garments being altered without an explanation, without. Or just blaming it on humidity, or, like, without apology for shaming our shoulders for all these years. It's like, these things are what, like, honestly, I still carry on me. Like, this whole, like, thing happened, and it was really traumatic at the time, but I feel like it showed me some things that I wouldn't have seen otherwise, but, like, I can let it go and move on. Like, I'm not at all affected by that letter the way I was when I first got it in the middle of all of that.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:52:09] Right.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:52:09] Like, I feel like it doesn't touch me the same way, but everything else about the church still touches me, and it, like, breaks my heart. And I'm grateful every day that I'm gonna raise my daughters and my son in a world free from all that shame and manipulation.

Margi Dehlin [04:52:25] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:52:25] And so I find a lot of strength in that. And that's just. That story is just part of the package for us, I guess. But it's not, like, a ruling thing for me today at all.

Margi Dehlin [04:52:36] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:52:37] I think I've really let that part go. And I also am a person that doesn't, like, continually. Like. Like, once I've made a decision on something, I kind of close the door and I keep going, you know, And I. Some people say I'm not deconstructing enough, but I feel like, if you got one life to live, I'm gonna go live it now, so it's a balance, you know, but sometimes you just never know what's gonna come up, pop up and trigger you, and make you start the grieving cycle all over again. Regarding the church, you know, all different things. It's the voice of women, you know, it's the image of control, like, the control of how we dress, how we live, everything. All of that is so triggering to me. But this whole experience, it was really big at the time, and now I feel like it is what it is. It's fine.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:53:24] I just feel we got a second chance and now we can really, like, not blame it on anyone. Not hide behind anyone. Not any institution. It's Sarah and Mitya. What are we doing with this right now going forward five, 10 years? We're moving back to Slovenia. It's going to be a way simpler life. It's not going to be toxic. Religiously toxic, because we're not going to participate. We love the traditions, which are mainly Catholic, but it's kind of the Christmas, Easter.

John Dehlin [04:53:59] I have to ask, how far is Slovenia from Ukraine?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:04] Hungary away?

John Dehlin [04:54:05] One country away.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:54:07] So Hungary is between you and Ukraine.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:09] Yes. But the war zones are on the east side.

John Dehlin [04:54:12] Sure.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:13] So Ukraine is really big, but you're

John Dehlin [04:54:15] one country away from.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:16] Sure. Like. Yeah, Just saying, one country away.

Margi Dehlin [04:54:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:19] So is there any concern about moving that close to a war zone? No, no, no, no.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:27] No member NATO is coming down as, you know, like, us is stepping out, kind of not financing. Right. So they're trying to, like.

John Dehlin [04:54:37] But you don't think Putin will mess with NATO?

Margi Dehlin [04:54:39] No way.

John Dehlin [04:54:40] Really?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:40] No way.

Margi Dehlin [04:54:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:54:41] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:41] That's another podcast. But, like.

John Dehlin [04:54:43] Yeah, no, I was just curious.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:44] You're not. You're not worried about that?

Margi Dehlin [04:54:46] No.

John Dehlin [04:54:46] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:46] We wouldn't be moving, like, if.

John Dehlin [04:54:48] Okay.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:54:48] No, no.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:54:49] I feel. I mean, you can't control anything. You know, there could be an earthquake here tomorrow. You know, it's just like, everything's so out of our hands. But I don't feel nervous going back for that reason.

John Dehlin [04:55:03] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:55:04] But a lot of people do bring that up. Yeah. I have a question.

Margi Dehlin [04:55:08] I feel like within the church, there was, like, a list of things that you would do to, let's just say, if you needed comfort or.

Sara Lakner Bevc [04:55:19] Right.

Margi Dehlin [04:55:20] I'm curious, you know, in the aftermath of all of this, are there certain things that have helped you in grieving or in processing difficult emotions when you're triggered.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:55:35] Oh, I mean, what you guys did for me personally, like, am I answering correctly, like, with, like, the tools that you give to People who. Who find themselves in situations. There's like, who knows who I would turn out to be like, without you guys doing this for 20 years and me having access and me working in a field that allowed me to internalize all of that, to grieve by myself whenever we were split in our transitions. It's just. Thank you so much. I want to give thanks to you guys, seriously.

John Dehlin [04:56:15] Oh. Oh. I don't think Mar is necessarily asking that. You're saying Mormon listening to Mormon stories episodes.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:56:19] That's what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [04:56:20] Listen to people's own faith journeys.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:56:22] Absolutely. There's no better tool than to listen to people who went through their own journeys in their own way, but out of the same reasons, out of the same facts. Yeah. Like, it's just. And I'm so proud of Sarah.

Margi Dehlin [04:56:40] So it sounds like hiking too, at least in the past has been a place, right? Walking and hiking and.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:56:46] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:56:47] Is there a physicality for you in. In grief and working out or.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:56:51] Oh, that helps so much. Oh, yeah. Just me. Just me and the universe. Call it God. I don't know who God is, if it's a body or not or like I'm. I'm away. If there is, like, I. I keep a little bit of hope still, but it's shrinking fast. I don't have a believing God anymore because I want God to show up. Do you know what I mean? Like, if all this is wrong, if people can. Bishops, presidents, all these structures, if they can do the manly, fallible work and hurt people or the whole communities for 200 years, let's say Mormonism or the whole Christianity. Where is God in the midst of all of this, where are you? I don't even care if you're in body or not. Like, if we are all your people. If you wanted this story, right, like, where are you? Show up, do something that we will all really kneel down today in the 21st century. Who cares what religion it is? Who care what profile we are? Show yourself. Stop the war. Feed the hungry.

John Dehlin [04:58:01] Rescue the refugees.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:58:04] Do it like, you know what I mean? You're almighty. Show up. I mean,

John Dehlin [04:58:12] let's end with this. Let's suppose there's a spectrum. On one side of the spectrum is for you, Sarah, I wish I'd never served a mission in Croatia. I wish I'd never gone to Eastern Europe. Europe, like, you know, I wish just Eastern Europe had never happened, let alone media or any of that. Right? And for you on that side of the spectrum, Mitias, I wish I'd never Learned about Mormonism. I wish I'd never joined Mormonism. I just regret it all. That's one side of the spectrum. And then the other side of the spectrum is, oh, I'm so happy. I served a mission in Eastern Europe, and I met Mithia, you know, and was Mormon and was a missionary because I met Mithia, had my three kids, and it's all awesome because of what it's led to. And then for you, Mithya, I'm super glad my brother converted. And then I converted, and then I joined and I served all those years because it allowed me to find Sarah and have three kids and to build this beautiful life. Where are each of you? Are you on one pole or the other or somewhere in the middle? Middle. So me, too. You go first. You were nodding your head emphatically.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:59:20] So we'll say in this moment, yeah, absolutely grateful. I wouldn't change a thing.

John Dehlin [04:59:26] So you're. You're on that other side. You wouldn't change, literally a thing.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:59:31] A thing.

John Dehlin [04:59:32] As angry as you were, as upset you were at being fooled, all the

Mitja Lakner Bevc [04:59:34] emotions, all the whole journey. Fifteen years, you know, time, money, whatever, you know, all the Sundays I know today, the church is not true, okay? And that's the lesson. It took me 15 years to find out, like, whatever, but life is true, and we happened and we created something. And this is what I'm taking with me. Like, you know, I look forward optimistically. I was always optimistic, like, as a person. Like, I always looked forward, you know? But I'm trying now to, like, slow down. I'm not focused on the future anymore. Just be present and just be and figure us out and life and still be with Christ in spirit and help the poor. And

John Dehlin [05:00:28] so someone would ask, if you're so happy with the outcome, why did you raise such a stink with your warden stake if you're so happy with the outcome, whether it's true or not?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:00:37] Because if my kid is stealing candies from the store, I need to teach him a lesson, you know, I mean, it's that simple. That is not okay. That's not right. Right.

John Dehlin [05:00:50] So you wanted to teach the church a lesson.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:00:52] Absolutely, too. Yeah. Yeah. Inside my own lesson that I got.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:00:59] What valiant effort.

John Dehlin [05:01:02] Do you think they learned their lesson?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:01:04] Absolutely. Oh, yeah, they're praising me. I feel sorry for people, for members, but that's why they chose like. And I have to respect that. And it's hard because naturally. Sorry. Naturally. Naturally. I am. I want to jump in and save the roof that's on fire. The arguing couple the, the world that's falling apart. I'm always there. Like, I, I, this is my life. Like I was. Well, do you know how hard it is, like, to not be able to do it inside the community? But okay, we'll just do it the way I, the way I know.

Margi Dehlin [05:01:38] And.

John Dehlin [05:01:39] Well, telling your story isn't on. Mormon stories isn't a bad way to get the word out. You know what I mean?

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:01:43] Yes. Thank you.

John Dehlin [05:01:44] I mean, this will reach at least 100,000 people or more. Yes.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:01:47] And they will decide for themselves. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:01:50] Sarah, what's your answer?

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:01:52] I would never regret my mission. I loved it. I still, I mean, even if I don't agree with, with all the things about missions, like I said, like, was awesome. I loved it. And I probably too, wouldn't change anything. I think I would change. I'm not maybe as extreme on nothing. I wouldn't change. But would you change me? Yeah. I would ask if I had done that. But, like, I am grateful for. Yeah, we're going on 10 years this year, so.

John Dehlin [05:02:21] Of marriage.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:02:22] 10 years of marriage. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:02:23] Congrats.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:02:23] So thank you. And it is, I don't, I'm just grateful for life. Honestly. This whole thing has made me just grateful for the fact that it happened now and not when I was in my 50s or 60s, that I'm, I'm 38, and I feel like I'm not young, but I am, and it's all good. And I don't know if I would have appreciated the life outside of this with, without having been in it the way I was. So that's why I wouldn't want to change it, because I wouldn't know if I could appreciate it. And I hope I can help my children appreciate it without having them go through it. You know what I mean? And, But I do mourn my, My youth, my twenties. I, I mourn that. I feel like there was a decade loss of Sarah. And I do mourn. And I am a bit bitter at the way the church, like, I trusted the church to rob me of that.

Margi Dehlin [05:03:12] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:03:13] So. But, yeah. But overall, I feel like it's just part of life. It's a beautiful experience. And what are the odds that I would have been. You know, I once thought I was so lucky. Of all the people in the world, I was born in the church. I was a member. I was born a member. How lucky am I? And now I think of it kind of jokingly, like, what are the odds that I was born in a cult? Like, that's so bizarre. You know, it's painful to admit that, but it's kind of. It's crazy to think, like, wow, it really was something quite radical, and I had no idea.

Margi Dehlin [05:03:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:03:48] So thanks for being so honest.

Margi Dehlin [05:03:50] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:03:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:03:51] Both of you. Thank you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:03:52] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [05:03:53] Yeah. One last question from me. I'm curious if there is a place where you feel hope right now, and if so, if there's, you know, something you want to name that you hope for and it can be for yourself, it can be for your kids. Kids. It can be. I really love the idea of something that you hope for, for yourself, though.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:04:17] Right.

Margi Dehlin [05:04:18] Is there anything that comes to mind,

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:04:24] Honestly? Peace.

Margi Dehlin [05:04:26] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:04:26] I don't know if, like. I mean, there's a lot of words I could say, but.

Margi Dehlin [05:04:30] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:04:31] Like peace with my family.

Margi Dehlin [05:04:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:04:36] Has this affected your relationship with your family? Family.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:04:40] They're all, you know, nice and cordial. There's been a few heated moments where there was some really hurtful things said, but I wish people could see that those who leave the church are not at all what we've always said they are. And. And I. I know that what Mitia did was so not. It was, you know, not okay in this culture. Right. It did seem very aggressive. Even though he never hurt anyone, you know, he just was honest and very bold. I really wish that people could see the good heart in him and his intention, that wasn't as clear, you know, but. Yeah, I just want to be able to just. I would love to believe firmly in something again. I don't know if that'll happen again, honestly, because I feel like you can never believe something so strongly as what I believed before, and to have that completely fall apart, it's like, how would anything ever live up to that firm belief? You know? And so my main belief is just. I don't know. We don't know. But we can hope for goodness. We can hope that we'll all be together forever. I can hope that my kids will grow in love and confidence and joy and feel that they are miraculous beings, you know, and. But I can only hope for things. And I. I do. I do mourn feeling like I had the faith of knowledge, you know, But I. I don't know. It's like almost like you don't want it anymore. But you. It's. Yeah. How do you explain it? I don't know. I feel so many security. Yeah. That false security. I don't want the false security, but I do miss the sense of feeling safe. I do. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [05:06:39] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:06:40] And sometimes seeing all the chapels on every corner, it's just like a painful reminder. So I don't want to be running away, you know, moving abroad, but I. It is hard to be reminded daily of who I was and what we lost. A sense of community and everything. But at the same time, it's so liberating, you know, like, you're so grateful to be liberated into this new world and to the first time actually exercise faith that it's going to be okay because otherwise it's the scariest thing in the world, you know? But if there really is love out there, then I can say with an honest heart that, like, I'm in a good place because I've been honest with where I'm. I'm not faking my beliefs anymore.

Margi Dehlin [05:07:26] Yeah. Thank you.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:07:27] But it's. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:07:30] I just love my family.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:07:33] We've got amazing little babes. Yeah. So we just want the best for them.

John Dehlin [05:07:42] It's all good.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:07:46] We're going to work it out. Our kids are okay.

Margi Dehlin [05:07:54] Yeah. That's your hope.

John Dehlin [05:07:56] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:07:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [05:07:59] Yeah.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:08:00] Thank you both. Thanks for staying with.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:08:02] Thank you, guys.

Margi Dehlin [05:08:04] We honor your journey.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:08:05] Journey.

Margi Dehlin [05:08:06] We honor your story. Thank you.

John Dehlin [05:08:08] Thank you, guys.

Margi Dehlin [05:08:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:08:11] What a beautiful ending out of me.

Margi Dehlin [05:08:14] All the love to you both.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:08:16] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [05:08:17] And may you get on some supportive soil.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:08:23] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:08:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [05:08:24] To grow and heal. Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:08:26] Come and join us at the Adriatic Sea. Seriously. We'll do fun. We'll do a Thrive there.

John Dehlin [05:08:34] Yeah. Thrive Slovenia.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:08:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:08:37] 2026 for five people. No, I'm just kidding.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:08:41] What?

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:08:41] It Actually, you would be surprised. Yeah, I was just kidding. No, I'm saying, you know, there's a community growing there, too. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [05:08:48] All right. We're calling it thrive Slovenia 2026.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:08:51] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [05:08:52] Buy your tickets today.

Margi Dehlin [05:08:53] Yeah.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:08:54] You have a place to stay?

John Dehlin [05:08:57] Oh, all right. Well, thank you so much, Sarah and Mithya, for your powerful, courageous, epic story. Thanks for coming on Mormon Stories.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:09:09] Thank you, Margi. Thank you, John.

Sara Lakner Bevc [05:09:12] Thank you.

Mitja Lakner Bevc [05:09:12] You're the gems.

John Dehlin [05:09:13] Yeah. And thanks, Margi, for being here today. Thanks to Brooklyn and Julia for all their help and thanks to you, our viewers and listeners. We couldn't do this without you. So big thanks to our donors that make all this possible. And just finally, we always just ask if you aren't a donor, but you value this type of content. The way you can support it is to become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org and then it always helps. If you like these episodes, subscribe to the channels, share them. And we love your comments. We love your feedback either in the comments or mormonstoriesmail.com and then if you want to appear on Mormon Stories like these fine folks, you can just go to MormonStories.org, apply, record a three minute video, tell us why you think your story would resonate with our audience, and we'll reach out back to you. But thanks for joining us today. Hope you've enjoyed it. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. And we'll see you at@ Slovenia Thrive 2026.

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