Welcome Back and Guest Introductions

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to another episode of More Mysteries podcast. I'm your host, Gerardo Sumano, and today we're continuing our series on Lori Valo de Bell's case or the trial that's happening at Ada county in Boise. And we have. We covered this last two weeks ago. We did our first episode where we covered week one of the trial, and then week two was a little slow. There were no. There was no trial on Monday and Friday. So then we decided, okay, maybe let's just skip this episode and. And then combine week two and three today. So today is April 30th, and yeah, we have some amazing guests who are coming back for this series. First, uh, I'm gonna introduce to you guys, uh, if you didn't watch last week, Mindy. Mindy Caldwell. How are you, Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:57] I'm good. I'm glad to be back. Thank you for having us. There's a lot to talk about.

Guest [00:01:01] So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:02] Yes. Do you want to just introduce yourself for people that haven't. Didn't watch last series, last week's or. Sorry, two weeks ago episode?

Mindy Caldwell [00:01:13] Yeah, so I. I have been following this case from the very beginning. I became interested in the case because I do have some family members who have been involved in some of the maybe more extreme LDS prepping aspects. Not. Not part of this Chad and Laurie Daybell group. But so I've just been thinking about these. These concepts for a long time. And so when I heard about this case, I was instantly. I was instantly interested in following it. And also, I'm a mom, I have several kids, and I was really concerned for the children when they were missing. And it's just been a tragic and interesting and sad case all around, and I'm grateful that it's finally gone to trial. It's been a long time coming. So, yeah, that's basically why I became interested in the case.

Guest 2 [00:02:16] So.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:16] Thanks, Mindy. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. A lot of people have been waiting for this trial to happen for. For many, many years. And I actually, I don't know if I've said this before, but one of the reasons why I became so interested in. In the case was because I. I lived in Rexburg for four years while going to school. And actually, while I was going to school, all these events were happening. And of course, when. When, you know, what happened when the kids went missing and, you know, they were found and all this stuff, I was not living in Rexburg anymore, but it was just fascinating to hear that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:54] I mean, all this. All this was happened in, you know, maybe A couple miles from where I was living. So, yeah, kind of crazy. And we also have with us today, Lauren Matthias from Hidden True Crime. Lauren, do you want to introduce yourself? Sorry, Lauren, you're muted. There we go.

Lauren Matthias [00:03:13] Oh, thanks. Lauren Matthias. I have been covering this case for three years with a podcast, and now I'm also reporting here in Boise with News Nation and our podcast. So it's. It's a case that matters to me. It's become personal. We've gotten to know some of the victims. It's heartbreaking. Like, like Mindy and Gerardo. I think that when it came down, it was so shocking. I. I saw a photo of Chad and, and Lori and thought, these two look like anyone I would go to church with. And there are two missing children. And I thought to myself, this isn't going to end well. What's going on? And I think I've been asking that question for three years now. So grateful to be here in Boise, attending trial daily and, and live tweeting and sharing what I'm seeing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:04] Yeah, yeah, thanks, Lauren. I'm sorry I mispronounced your last name.

Lauren Matthias [00:04:09] That's okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:11] And of course, we have with, with us the.

Guest 3 [00:04:16] My.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:16] My partner, owner of Mormon Stories podcast, John Dehlin. Sorry, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] I need to be a part of this. And I'm a huge fan of Mindy and of Lauren and John and Hidden True Crime podcast and of you. So I'm just going to be kind of a fun, observing panelist today, and I'm excited to be here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:04:41] Yeah. Your contributions are always super valuable, John. You always, you always catch things that we, We. We miss, so. And also, this is probably your first time listening to some of these clips, right? Or these audio.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Yeah. I have no idea what you're gonna. I. I have not followed the trial this week or the week before, and this will be the first time I hear almost any clip you play, I'm pretty sure. So I'll be, I'll be responding naturally and immediately.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:11] Yeah. That's awesome.

Guest [00:05:13] That's great.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:14] Great to have you. So, yeah, let's just dig right in. And so we have, you know, week two and three. This was the third week of the trial, and we want to start with Zulema Pastines.

Zulema's Temple Testimony and Inner Circle Beliefs

Guest 2 [00:05:35] She.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:35] She came back to for, for a cross examination, I believe, on Tuesday. Let me get the date.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Can I. Let me ask Alfredo while you're working that out. I don't know that we talked about Zulema in, In part one. Did we or did we not?

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:54] We did.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Okay. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:05:56] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] So she's coming back, but we definitely

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:59] want to give like a, a summary of who she is for people.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Okay, so for those who are just joining us now, who, Mindy or Lauren, who wants to tell us who Zulema is, why she's significant, and why, why they brought her back?

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:11] Mindy, do you, do you want to.

Mindy Caldwell [00:06:13] I'll take that one. So, yeah, we did talk about Zulema in our first recap episode, but her, her testimony was not complete at the time. So Zulema Pastenis is a good friend of Chad and Laurie. She was part of this inner group of six to 10 people, part of the high, high up in the group of, of Chad and Laurie that they, she participated in, in many of their secret meetings and they did these casting, casting out of evil spirits. She was involved in all of that. We talked about that in the first episode.

Mindy Caldwell [00:06:55] One major significance about Zulema is that she, she ended up marrying Alex Cox, who is Laurie's brother and who is heavily involved in this case. And many presume that he had a hand in, in the, all of the deaths. And so she married him with the, the encouragement of Lori and Chad.

Mindy Caldwell [00:07:22] She. They had a brief courtship and she married him just a few weeks prior to his death in December of 2019. Yeah, she's a main player for sure in, in this whole case, and I think she knew a lot, a lot of things that she.

Mindy Caldwell [00:07:40] A lot of the things that happened in the case. I think she was aware and many believe that she was, you know, that she probably deserves some charges for what has happened. One thing I do want to mention about Zulema is that she, compared to some of the others who have testified who are in this group, I do think she was probably the most forthcoming about and the most honest about. About what, what transpired versus some of the other witnesses.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:06] Right, right. And let me just say this, because we're not going to do this necessarily chronologically of, you know, how the events were revealed or the testimonies. I do want to say that it was revealed in this past week that they found Alex Cox's fingerprint or, and I think palm prints on some of the remains of, of jj. Is that, Is that right, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:08:36] They found his fingerprints and palm prints on the plastic bag that JJ's body was wrapped in before being buried in Chad's yard. Yes. So they did a lot of latent fingerprint testing, and the ones that they were able to identify belonged to Alex Cox.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:56] Yeah. And so this, this women, Suleima, she was married to Alex While probably most of these events were, were happening. So. And also Alex Cox, he shot presumably in self defense. While you know, that's still to be determined.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:17] Charles Vallow, who was Laurie's third. Third husband. And you know, part of what we're gonna play a clip from Zulema's testimony. But at this time, while right before Charles was shot and, and died and, and let me also give also a warning because we're gonna be talking about things that are maybe a little bit, uh, can be a little bit hard to hear. Like we're going to be talking about how the bodies were found and you know, in one conditions and we're gonna play a clip of one of the autopsies. So just be aware that we're gonna have maybe a little bit of graphic content today.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:04] And yeah, so just going back to Sulema and Alex. So Lori, Chad, Alex and Zlema believed that Charles had been possessed by, by evil spirits. And then they would perform like Mindy said, this ceremonies to try to cast the spirits out.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:26] Well, it turns out that the day that Charles was shot by Alex and Lori was at the house as well, you know, they, they were supposed to perform casting, uh, you know, they were supposed to cast out this. An evil spirit that was possessing Charles body. So we're gonna play a clip just about what was going on during, at the time that Charles was killed.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:10:59] And Charles passed away on. On what day do you recall?

Video Clip 1 [00:11:05] July 11th.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:06] Okay, that was in 2019.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:09] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:10] Do you recall what you were doing that day in the morning?

Video Clip 1 [00:11:15] I was at temple.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:16] You're at the temple. Okay, can you turn to page five of exhibit number or exhibit B? Can you turn to number 69 and 70 and can you read those?

Video Clip 1 [00:11:45] I'm on my way to the temple. I'll be in the celestial room.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:51] So 69 is I'm on my way to the temple and 70 is I'll be in the celestial room.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:55] Correct, Correct.

Video Clip 1 [00:11:58] Do you recall what you were doing?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:01] Objection.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:01] Your honor. Can we just have the. Since we switched exhibits, can we have the to and from. So that puts these in context please.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:12] With switching exhibits, I do think. Yeah. Indicate who these communications involve.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:17] Okay. Exhibit B is an extraction report. If you'll turn to the front page. Is that correct? To the front page one.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:29] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:30] And the participants are 564-806-929562. Is that your number? Is that your phone number or was that your phone number?

Video Clip 1 [00:12:54] Those are Lori's numbers.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:55] Oh, those are both Lori's numbers.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:57] Correct.

Video Clip 1 [00:12:58] Okay, so this is you Talking to Lori, Is that right?

Video Clip 1 [00:13:01] Correct.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:01] Okay, so 69, you're talking to Lori, right? And you say, I'm on my way to the temple. On page five.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:11] Correct.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:12] Okay, and then seven, on number 70, page five, you say, I'll be in the celestial room.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:18] Correct.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:18] Okay, and then number 71. Would you read that for me?

Video Clip 1 [00:13:23] As I was working on Hiplos today in the temple, I was told he will be taken as he is. I don't know what that means. Then I was shown to only put light, the brightest light, from the top and the bottom at the same time, meaning in the middle. So I've been doing that all day. 7 11. I hope today is a good day for all of this to end.

Video Clip 1 [00:13:49] Okay, so you were in the temple. You went into the temple sometime shortly before 9am, is that right?

Video Clip 1 [00:14:02] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:14:03] Okay, and you're not. Are you allowed to bring your phone into any of the rooms in the temple?

Video Clip 1 [00:14:11] No.

Video Clip 1 [00:14:11] Okay, so you didn't have your phone between, say, 8:54 when you first texted that and 11:31st? Well, that's a long time. So between 8:54, how long were you at the temple that day, do you recall?

Guest 2 [00:14:29] I don't remember how long I was there.

Guest 4 [00:14:31] Okay, and so you specifically recall that you were at the temple and that this specific thing happened to you?

Guest 2 [00:14:45] Yes, I remember this.

Guest 4 [00:14:47] Okay, and this was when you were casting out hippos?

Guest 2 [00:14:53] Yes, sir. I was supposed to meet Laurie at the temple that day, and we were supposed to be working on Hiplas together.

Demons, Castings, and Special Powers in the Group

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:05] All right, so let me just. I should have said this, but Hiplas is the demon that. Or the bad spirit that Lori and Chad and Alex believe that had inhabited Charles Vallow's body.

Guest 3 [00:15:20] So.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] Okay, can I. Can I ask some questions here?

Guest [00:15:23] Of.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:24] Sure, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] So I've never even heard the word hyplos before. So.

Guest 3 [00:15:28] So.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] So they all believe that bad spirits can enter human bodies, which is definitely Mormon doctrine. I was taught that from as a child that a third of the hosts of heaven in the pre existence were cast out, sent to earth to tempt mankind. So the idea that there are satanic spirits possessing and entering in people's bodies, that's Mormon doctrine? Naming them. Seems my immediate reaction is that's interesting that they're naming these spirits. So there's a spirit named Hiplos.

Guest 6 [00:16:07] How does.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] How's that spelled?

Lauren Matthias [00:16:10] It's spelled H I P L O S. But I have to say Zulema is pronouncing it wrong because not only did they name these evil spirits, they had pronunciation Guides. And the H is supposed to be silent, allegedly, says Melanie Gibb. It's supposed to be Ev. Iplos. So Lemma needs to get that straight.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Okay, so there's a spirit named Eplos that they believe is possessed Lori's brother Alex.

Mindy Caldwell [00:16:33] No, they believe it's Charles.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Charles, Lori's husband, late husband. The one who. Who probably Alex ends up killing. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:44] Well, while Suleima is at the temple here, while sending all this text, all this was going on. She was supposed to meet Lori. That's the day. And around the same time that Charles was shot by Alex.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] Got it. Okay. So they believe that Charles is possessed by a spirit named Iplos. Zulem is going to the temple, and they all are kind of expecting some resolution with the fact that Charles has been possessed by Iplos. Is that right?

Mindy Caldwell [00:17:13] Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:13] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:17:14] And I was.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:14] I was with Mindy in court during this, and I want to throw out. I think Mindy was about to say it first.

Guest 2 [00:17:18] The.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:18] The spirit was actually named Garrett. That was the first evil spirit. And then they had castings and got Garrett out of Charles's body. But then Ned came in and Ned was a worse spirit. He was breaking eternal law by entering. And they were able to get net out. And then that's when. Right, Mindy. That's when Eos came in. But E Blos was the worst of the worst. He was. He was like a 4.6 dark.

Guest 3 [00:17:47] So.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] So like there are these series of named satanic spirits that are allegedly possessing Charles. They keep. They keep trying to cast them out, but they keep coming back and. And everybody's getting frustrated with how vulnerable and susceptible Charles is to these demonic spirits.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:08] I think by the point Iplos has inhabited Charles body, they believed that he was a zombie. Like basically he couldn't. Like his. His real spirit couldn't come back anymore to his body. Is that right, Mindy? Like, is that what your understanding, Lauren?

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:25] Right. I mean, presumably if they cast Iplos out, maybe another spirit would have entered, you know, But. But yeah, Lauren's right. In the progression of the spirits that inhabited Charles, they progressively got worse and more powerful. And I do want to note when Zulema is talking about. I can't remember exactly how she described it, but about how she's like making. Configuring the light or something around him.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:56] Chad and Laurie assigned like special powers to the people that were in this inner group of theirs. And Zulema's special power that she was assigned was that she had control over the weather. And so this wasn't the first time that she summoned those, those powers to help cast out evil, evil spirits. I believe there was another incident when a different evil spirit was in Charles and she was trying to summon up a big storm while he was driving to cause, presumably to cause him to crash and the spirit to leave his body. And she described that that experience was exhausting for her. To Lauren, do you remember exactly what the storm was? Some type of a tornado or something? I can't remember.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:41] But yeah, yeah, she was sending wind and I think she was sending fire power too. And I'm smiling. This is a tragedy, but I'm smiling remembering the jurors faces during all of this because this was literally brought up in court and explained and these jurors know nothing about this case. And they were, they were. It was incredible. It was awful. But yes, so e blows or so Zulema controlled the elements. That was her special gift. And she was going to send earthquake and storms and I think even think firepower to the, to the car where Charles was driving so that he would get in a car crash. But let's also throw in the fact that JJ was in the car with him, little jj. So it was an odd little side thing there too.

John Dehlin [00:20:28] I just want to say just super quickly that while this feels foreign to my version of Mormonism, it also feels like a logical extension of taking Mormon doctrine and theology seriously. Because these satanic spirits, if they were cast out, they would have names because we all had names as righteous Mormon spirits in the pre existence according to Mormon doctrine. So the fact that the spirits have names, the spirits are on the earth, the spirits are possessing people and that spirits can be cast out, that's all technically Mormon doctrine. So while it feels weird on, on one or extreme on the one hand, it also is actually just a logical extension of what we were all taught. They're just, they're just kind of taking it seriously and then using what they probably feel is the gift of the Holy Ghost to discern truth in some supernatural way. I just had to just put that out there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:27] Yeah, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:21:29] The dilemma does say at the end of her cross examination, I believe she's asked if she still believes in, in evil spirits having the capability of inhabiting bodies. And she admits that she does. She says it's in the scriptures. So she still does believe that.

Guest 4 [00:21:46] So.

Guest 6 [00:21:48] Right, right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:49] Yeah, just really, really interesting. And, and it remind, it just remind me this idea of Ned and, and, and, and then Garrett and then ned and then iOS. You know the treasure digging thing like where Joseph is trying to find treasure and, and people dig and then they can't find the treasure. And it's like, oh, the spirit took it. But now we have to do this types of spells, and then we'll be able to retrieve them.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:18] And, you know, it's really, really interesting. It also makes me think about this idea of being able to believe all this supernatural, like, supernatural stuff, spirits and spirits that, you know, can hide treasures and all and at the same time have a really strong testimony of Jesus and God and be very Christian at the same time. So it. One doesn't override the other one. It just kind of really interesting. And I think a really good example is going to be the next witness that we're going to talk about, which is David Warwick.

Secular Explanations and Panel Discussion

John Dehlin [00:22:52] And can I just, can I ask one last thing? Sorry, go ahead. Just for the panel, if we want to look at a secular explanation for what's going on, it's like Charles is, is not behaving the way that Laurie is and Alex and Chad, and everybody wants him to behave, and they're getting annoyed with him. And so their confirmation, their religious confirmation bias would say that he's possessed or that he's a zombie, but really what's going on is he's, he's not behaving in the way that they want, and so they need to fix him as a problem. Am I interpreting that right?

Lauren Matthias [00:23:30] Yeah. And the way he's not behaving is that he's, he's married to Lori Valo, and that's, that's not a good way to behave. Right. If you want to be with her. And, and then in addition to that, if they divorce, I'm sure that Lori won't get his life insurance policy. So, yeah, I think you're, you're spot on. And, and I want to throw one last thing out about Zulema. If we're talking about Mormon theology when it comes to this case, in the probable cause statement. So there are charges in Arizona, and of course, we're not, you know, this trial is not for Charles, but they're using it for foundational evidence in, in the Idaho trial.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:12] But there are charges in Idaho or, sorry, in Arizona. Excuse me, with Charles. And in the probable cause charging Lori. Lori Vala with her husband's death or conspiracy with her husband's death, they have a text Zulema wrote a woman named Julie, not Julie Rowe, another Julie, and she says the morning that Charles was killed that it was a Nephi and Laban ending.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:40] Oh, wow.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:41] Want to throw that out there, too? So Text from Zilema.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Let me share a quick comment from Radio Free Mormon. He writes, it's important to dehumanize others to justify killing them. We love Radio Free Mormon. Support Mormonism Live and Radio Free Mormon Podcast. Thanks for joining us. Rfm. And that isn't that kind of. Whenever we mistreat someone, whether it's racism or slavery or women or whatever, we have to make them less than to be able to then justify mistreatment. That feels like a really good secular explanation for what's going on. Yeah, yeah. And then religion can just be the. The lens for our confirmation bias that allows us to mistreat someone.

Guest [00:25:23] Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] And then we justify it using our cognitive dissonance management skills. We justify it religiously in this case, you know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:33] Totally agree.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] Okay. Sorry. Keep going, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:36] No, yeah, Great. So we're gonna have the. The next. The next witness that we're going to talk about is David Warwick. And I think Lauren would do. Will do a better job at explaining who David is and his involvement, which is very similar to Zulemas in some ways because he was involved with Lori and Chad, but. But different also in other ways. So. Yeah. Lauren, do you want to just talk to us about who David is?

David Warwick's Role and Testimony

Lauren Matthias [00:26:09] Yeah. David Warwick is an important person in this case, who I think is kind of steered clear of a lot of publicity better than others. But he is very, very important. And the reason he's so important first off, is that he was there in the town home spending the night at Lor's, the night that J.J. was killed. So let's go back a little bit to explain who David Warwick is. He's a speaker and visionary. He speaks at the Preparing of People conferences, the Firm Expo, the Book of Mormon Evidence Conferences. You know, all those three conferences are intertwined. Right. You've got Rod Meldrum and Mike and Nancy James running those.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:43] And they're also the conferences that gave Chad Dable a platform. And David Warwick is one of those. And he still is. Just so you know, he is still preaching his visions and dreams and all that good stuff. Not good stuff. Don't get me started. So David Warwick ended up marrying Melanie Gibb. Melanie Gibb was Lori Valo, Debel's best friend. While they were all together hanging out, Melanie Gibb was actually married to someone else. David Warwick was married to someone else. But like so many people that attend these Preparing of People conferences, they hooked up, there was an affair, they got divorced. They're married now.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:21] They were both at the house or at the townhouse. In Rexburg when JJ was killed. And so, so about as important witness as you can get when it comes to these murders. And he took the stand. So that's David Warwick.

Guest 3 [00:27:39] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:40] Something just to give a little bit of information about what the clip is going to be about, about David. I, I think Lawrence, Lawrence summarized really well. Why he is so important is because he was there the, the night that JG was killed. But, but the other, the, the, the, the reason why I included this clip or what we're about to listen to is, and I talked about this with Mindy and we both agreed and came up with the same conclusion. I haven't talked to Lauren about it, but feel free to disagree, Lauren. But it was when, when David was giving his testimony to the prosecution,

Guest 4 [00:28:24] he,

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:25] he sounded really self righteous. He made it sound like he was, you know, very kosher, very mainstream Mormon. He follows the prophet, you know, whatever, like your mainstream Mormon people, you know, see that, you see on Sundays, like that's him. He doesn't deviate from that. Lori and Chad were kind of like, you know, he could see that they were a little off or maybe a lot off, but he was respectful, but he didn't really engage in those types of things. So when he's, when he's testifying to the prosecution, we don't hear about his visions, we don't hear about other than like a nightmare that he talks about the night that JJ disappears, but we don't hear about, you know, this conspiracy theories that he, the conferences that he attends or where he speaks at all that comes out on cross examination.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:17] And to me, there was a, a big, big, you know, where you could tell, well, once he's being cross examined, you don't sound as mainstream as, you know, you, you, you made us believe. So first we're gonna play a clip of David testifying to the prosecution where he's just, you know, maybe criticizing Chad and Lori's beliefs a little bit and also, you know, playing into this like self righteousness maybe a little bit too. And you know, feel free to judge for yourself as well. So let's, let's hear the first clip for David.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:29:58] All right, now you indicated that he started talking about beliefs and that and the 144,000. Right. That's what you said. Who was present during this conversation?

Video Clip 2 [00:30:12] Melanie and Lori.

Video Clip 2 [00:30:13] Okay. Did Lori participate in the conversation at all about those issues?

Video Clip 2 [00:30:23] Not that I can recall. He seemed to lead the way on that.

Video Clip 2 [00:30:28] Okay, and did you, what was your response to, to Chad's, you know, sort of Concepts.

Video Clip 2 [00:30:35] I just said, if the lord's gathering is 144, 000, I believe that would happen through his prophetic. And then as far as the Satan having power to push people out of the bodies, I said, you know, we're taught differently in that. That doesn't. That can't happen. He does. He's not given that kind of power.

Video Clip 2 [00:30:53] So.

Video Clip 2 [00:30:53] Let me.

Video Clip 2 [00:30:54] Let me stop you there. So you are a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints, right?

Video Clip 2 [00:30:58] Yes.

Video Clip 2 [00:30:59] Okay. And I heard you say through the prophet, are those doctrines taught through the mainstream LDS Church?

Video Clip 2 [00:31:08] Yes.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:09] Okay. And so your response was things more in line with the teachings of your church?

Video Clip 2 [00:31:14] Yes.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:15] Okay. Were you sort of going along with what Chad was telling you?

Video Clip 2 [00:31:21] I. I was listening, and then I questioned it.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:23] You know, that's.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:28] I don't know what you mean by going along. I did.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:30] Did you believe him?

Video Clip 2 [00:31:31] No.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:32] Okay.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:32] Did you let him know you didn't believe him?

Video Clip 2 [00:31:34] Yeah.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:35] Okay, so after that interaction, did you have any other interactions with Chad?

Video Clip 2 [00:31:40] Yeah, the. He had us meet him at a property on the east side of a church.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:49] When you say had us meet him, who was. Who was together with that situation?

Video Clip 2 [00:31:55] Me and Melanie met with Chad, Laurie, at this property.

Video Clip 2 [00:31:58] Okay. And it was next to a church?

Video Clip 2 [00:32:00] Yes.

Video Clip 2 [00:32:01] Okay. What happened when you met with Chad and Lori next to a church?

Video Clip 2 [00:32:04] They just trying to tell us about that beautiful building, like a temple that was there and, and that, you know, was in spirit. So they wanted us to. They wanted to show it to us, but I couldn't see anything.

Video Clip 2 [00:32:20] Okay, why did they want to show you the. The temple or the heavenly building they. They said they were seeing?

Video Clip 2 [00:32:26] I think it tied in with things that they believed in, but I don't. Honestly, I didn't know all their beliefs. I. I was.

Video Clip 2 [00:32:34] Did you believe. Did you believe it? Could you see a building?

Video Clip 2 [00:32:37] No, I didn't believe it was there, and I couldn't see it, but I was trying to be respectful and just kind of follow along, I guess.

Video Clip 2 [00:32:45] Okay,

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:48] So I would like to hear the panels just responds to. To this clip.

Lauren Matthias [00:32:54] Well, I'll just say this, Mindy, if you ever show me an invisible temple, I will be respectful by letting you know it's not there. And I will let you know that you're seeing things and maybe slap your face a couple times to get you back to reality. That's. That's how I'll show you respect.

Guest 7 [00:33:11] Yeah, I'm not.

Mindy Caldwell [00:33:12] I'm not buying Warwick's testimony about this. I think he knew a lot more than he's letting on. I think he believed a lot more than he's letting on. One thing I noticed is I felt like there was a lot of virtue signaling to, like, mainstream LDs. In Warwick's testimony, he talks about, I only follow the LDS prophet.

Mindy Caldwell [00:33:35] I don't do business on Sunday. You know, Chad wanted to go look at a property or something. It was on Sunday. And he says, well, I don't do that on Sunday. But meanwhile, you know, as Lauren mentioned earlier, they're all like leaving their partners. They're having these extramarital relations relationships. At the time, Chad and Lori are fully open in their affection towards each other while Chad is still married to Tammy. Tammy, or Chad asks, or, excuse me, David asks Chad about Tammy at Lori's house. It's just, I just don't buy the virtue signaling. I don't, I don't. I just don't believe David when he claims that he didn't know all of their beliefs and he wasn't really following along with them and that he didn't see the things and was just trying to be respectful. It feels evasive to me.

Guest 6 [00:34:24] Yeah,

Lauren Matthias [00:34:26] I want to say this to going back to what Radio Free Mormon said that, you know, to, to be able to kill someone, you have to dehumanize them first. It's been very clear to me that these two witnesses, Melanie Gibb and David Warwick, they. One thing they do on the stand, yeah, they talk a lot about their beliefs and they, they emphasize a lot about how they didn't believe. That seems to be their biggest goal. But they never, they never humanize JJ or Tylee. In fact, Melanie was still criticizing them. And David Warwick implies that he tried to be buddies with J.J. but, you know, couldn't.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:59] And so I would be interested to hear what they had to say on the stand. If they, they were, if they had some hindsight and they said, you know, these poor, these poor children, but they, they don't. And, and they remain these dehumanized sort of figures to them, in my opinion. And that doesn't bode well for me when, when I'm listening to their testimonies, it makes me even more suspicious.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:20] That's so true. And to me, there was a point where he. And we're going to play another clip, you know, when he's being cross examined, there's this point where to me, he impeaches himself because here in this testimony, he's saying to the prosecution, he's saying, oh, I just follow the prophet. Only the prophet has that kind of Power, you know, some kind of like a gathering of the 144, 000 that would come through the prophet, you know, and, and he's asked like, oh, so you believe more like mainstream LDs? Yes, I'm more mainstream LDs.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:54] And this idea of having visions of secret combinations and what's going to happen in the future and countries invading other countries, that's probably something that would happen, you know, in mainstream LDs. Probably most people would believe that that's something that would happen through the LDS prophet and not, you know, a random member of the church that has to go giving this kind of speeches in, in conferences. What do you guys think?

Lauren Matthias [00:36:22] I'll let Mindy take that one. I mean, I, I agree with you, Gerardo. I, I think that, I think that a lot of these beliefs that maybe a mainstream LDS person would believe, you know, the invasion of maybe other countries or some calamities that might happen before the second Coming are fair. But these, this group sort of decides that it's going to happen to, that special LDS members are going to take the lead with protecting people almost, and that Chad and David Warwick and Melanie Gibb and all these people moving to Rexburg are going to rescue all of the righteous preppers in the LDS church through this call out.

Lauren Matthias [00:37:10] This is where I want Mindy to take it away. She knows more about, you know, this, this call out, but the, the fact that there's this wide body of LDS members and then these, these specific LDS members moved to Rexburg because this is the gathering place and they're going to have the white tents and the call out and they're going to lead people and they're the ones speaking and they have visions, I think is also a really important thing to note. These people, these people clearly thought that, that they were ahead of leadership, in other words.

Guest 6 [00:37:45] Right? Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] Mindy, did you. I have a couple things I want to say or share, but. Mindy, did you want to respond to that first?

Mindy Caldwell [00:37:56] Not necessarily. I think that Lauren hit on a lot of the good points. Yeah, I think that this is part of a quite large movement. I think people would be surprised how many people believe in these visions and dreams. There's been several really popular books, Visions of Glory, some of the Julie Rowe books that talk about the end times and the extra special righteous prepared people who, who qualify for this quote, unquote, call out where they will be called up to leave their homes and take their tents and all of their supplies and go to a safe place. And that's part of the whole gathering of the 144,000. And this was a core concept in Chad and Laurie's beliefs that they were part of that extra elite group that would be involved in this. In this. This process.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:50] Yeah.

Signs of the Second Coming and LDS Extremism

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Okay, well, if I can just share. I'm just. My brain is going crazy with. With hearing all this. So first of all, this idea of them of like Chad and Lori saying to Melanie and David, we can see a sacred building. Can you see it? On the one hand, that. That registers as Mormon to me in the sense that I was raised being taught that if you're really spiritual, you can see or feel things that maybe other people can or can't see. So the example would be when my. When my seminary teacher growing up would teach me that sometimes when you're doing baptisms for the dead in the temple, if you're really righteous, when you're coming out of the water, you'll be able to see the spirit of the person you're being baptized for who is already dead, and that maybe those around you won't be able to see it, that sort of thing.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] So it's certainly. It's certainly part of traditional, orthodox, mainstream Mormonism to believe in the ability to see spiritual things that maybe other people can't see. On the other hand, this idea of, like, seeing a building that other people can't see, that would. No one's ever done that to me. Nobody's ever said, hey, John, no Mormons ever gone, John, check out that thing. Can you see it? And I'm like, I can't see it. So. So it. It feels a little foreign. But that then becomes complicated by my, you know, relatively recent learnings about Joseph Smith and how Mormonism was founded, because Mormonism was founded by Joseph Smith as a treasure digger who would literally take townspeople around to.

John Dehlin [00:40:35] To find, quote, buried treasure. He would see treasure underground, and he would, you know, try and convince other people that they could also see the treasure or the angel or whatever, underground. And so this idea of spiritual eyes and being able to see things and then other people not seeing it and trying to convince them to see it. You could even think about the three witnesses account where. Where Joseph Smith took the three witnesses to try and, you know, have the vision with what, Moroni or the plates or whatever, and two of them could see it, but. But Martin Harris couldn't. And they're like, come on, Martin, can you see it?

John Dehlin [00:41:13] And then Martin had to withdraw himself. And then later Martin was able to see it, but it was with the spiritual eyes, not his physical eyes. I Just want to say it's Mormon and it's kind of not modern Mormon, but then it's very Mormon. It. You go back to the roots, this idea of being able to see things with your spiritual eyes. So I had to say that this teaching of the 144,000, it's in the Bible. It's in the. It's in Revelations, as I understand it. It's definitely. And since the Bible is part of Mormonism, that's definitely Mormon.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:44] It's a doctrine. Covenants, too.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Doctrine and covenants, yeah. And also what. But what I can say about that is the degree to which the signs of the times of the Second coming has been emphasized. It was emphasized much, much more in the 60s, 70s, and 80s as kind of Bruce R. McConkie type Mormonism. But in the past 10 or 20 years, it seems like the modern Mormon church has kind of taken its foot off the pedal of really talking about the end times and the second coming and almost has realized that there's danger in really emphasizing that.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] However, when we talk about the preparing a people kind of prepper movement that's been going on the past 10 or 20 years or more, what's really bizarre about that for me is how much the church has allowed that movement within the church to grow. Because if you look at kind of there's. Let's just say there's two main wings of concern to orthodox Mormonism. Those, the left and the right. The left would be progressive and liberal and skeptical Mormons that learn about historical problems, that care about LGBT people, that care about women's rights, that care about racism or that care about truth claims. If you look at that wing, which clearly would be a problem for the church, the church is on that group like a duck on a June bug.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] Like, just this week, was it Richard Osler, who's like a faithful, devout Mormon, who has this podcast called Listen, Learn and Love that's just trying to build faithful support for LGBTQ people. Like, the church canceled a fireside that he was going to go speak at as a faithful, devout, mainstream Mormon, you know, and I don't have to mention how many people have been excommunicated, whether it's me or Natasha Alpha, you know, Bill Real, Jeremy Runnels, you know what? Sam Young, for trying to advocate for. For the protection of children and abuse. Kate Kelly, for women's rights. When it comes to the left, the church is like, if you just make the wrong Facebook post, you might be excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] There's this double standard for the people on the right, which is really bothersome because I don't know this guy David Warwick from like Adam, but I know that this movement of Julie, you know, Julie Rowe is excommunicated. But all these people that were attending the preparing the people conferences that were doing all this end times, spiritualized, weird dark spirit kind of stuff. It's like the church just turned, like almost intentionally turned a blind eye as I understand it. They were holding, they were filling up like entire conference centers in Rexburg. Like, it's not like the church didn't know, know that this other conservative, faithful, orthodox, almost fundamentalist wing.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] It's like the church didn't know that they were out there. But for some reason the church either wasn't as concerned about what they were teaching and believing and writing books about and meeting about. Either they weren't as concerned or they were more afraid to go after them. But either way, I just have to say it feels like the church is a tiny bit complicit in allowing this movement to flourish and grow as much as it did when it was, you know, when it was way more willing to excommunicate and shut down the liberal and progressive stuff. Does any of that make sense? I just have to call that out because I think there is some complicity with the, with the Mormon Church in allowing this stuff to, to take root and grow.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:34] Could be, yeah. For I, I, I, I want to hear what Minnie and Lauren have to say. I just want to say that it, I, I wonder if the reason why the church doesn't turns a blind eye on these people. Is it because they're the most faithful ones? Maybe the ones are not faithful, but the ones that are willing to either pay more tithing or, you know, fulfill their callings more than more, more progressive people so the church gets out of more, gets more out of this very, you know, prepper people or they have a lot of, more like extra beliefs to the LDS Church than from the progressives. I don't know. That's just something I just thought about. But Mindy, Lauren, do you guys have anything you think about? What, What, John, that you thought about that? What would Johnson.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:28] Yeah, well, I just want to say when it comes to that Rexburg Tabernacle being completely full for that first preparing a people conference and another one with Chad and Lori, you also had BYU Idaho catering lunch, so just want to throw that out there.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:43] On the original flyer, I have lunch catered by BYU Idaho. I'm, I'm listening. I want to say that I don't have answers. I think you guys just kind of put the pin on what I've been trying to figure out for three years. So I, I'm, I am like listening with full ears. I've even, you know, I think I attended a three day Firm Expo just to try to process this and figure out what this is all about. And I will say that one thing you pointed out too, with you said the prepper movement was bigger in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s, which is interesting because that is around the time where maybe this group of people, you know, was growing up, you know, a time they, they might remember.

Lauren Matthias [00:47:26] And one thing that's very relevant at the Firm Expo and these conferences is the general theme that the LDS Church is changing because it is. Because every religion changes and because everything in this world changes. And change happens. Right? Changes. The ultimate, probably difficult thing for humans to deal with, but everything changes. So their complaint is that the church is changing, the beliefs are changing, they're falling away from their original doctrine and thus they, they are the stalwart people who want to bring it back to what it was. They're, they're afraid of the progressive Mormons. The other thing though that I noted at the, at the Firm Expo was it was really hard to pinpoint certain beliefs.

Lauren Matthias [00:48:12] You know, a lot of people believe in multiple probations at the Firm Expo and a lot of people do not. A lot of people think it's a, a false doctrine. A lot of people believe that Joseph Smith was the prophet, the, the, the, you know, the best prophet in history, you know, up there with Jesus. While other people believe at the Firm Expo that Joseph, that Brigham Young murdered Joseph Smith, you know, and hid, hid things so that he could then lead the church. And other people believe Joseph Smith fell away. It's very confusing. Some people believe the energy healing is of the devil and other people believe that it's Christ centered and brings light.

Lauren Matthias [00:48:57] So the thing though that brings them all together, I would say are these two things. The, the fact that they all believe that the church is changing and they want to bring it back to its roots and far right political extremism. I want to say, and I'm not saying, I'm not saying Republican, I'm not saying Democrat, I'm just saying political extremism. They seem to all have the same world view there. Just some food for thought. I, I don't know what's going on, but, but yeah, I think I agree with you.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:32] The church needs to get involved in this. I don't know if they Just don't want to touch East Idaho. You know, East Idaho sort of its own little island out there. It's Ezra Taft Benson land. They do what they do, they don't bother anyone else. So, you know, they all want to join at the Rexburg Tabernacle and have lunch hosted by BYU Idaho let them. And now here we are though, you know, here we are. So I agree with you, you know, that something needs to be done.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Now I have a follow up, but Mindy, I want to hear if you have a response first before I say anything.

Mindy Caldwell [00:50:01] Yeah, I think, John, your, your thoughts are spot on. And Lauren as well. I think it's been perplexing that it seems like the, the liberal side of, of Mormon behavior has been attacked and then this other side has just been able to just gain a life of its own. And that was one of the things that concerned me initially when I was witnessing some of my own family members kind of get caught up in this. I was just feeling like, how, how are you? How is everybody, you know, okay with this? And are you not seeing that, that these, you know, these aren't really the main principles that we're hearing from, from church leaders at the top.

Mindy Caldwell [00:50:42] And I only, I wonder if this Daybell case hadn't exploded and this global spotlight wasn't on this case. I don't know if, if the, if things would keep going, you know, if, if these groups would continue to grow and grow and if, if any attention from like the top church leaders would, would be directed at this growing number of people in Mormonism that are subscribing to these beliefs. And one thing that I was thinking about, Lauren, when you were talking and John, Lauren interviewed Heather Daybell, who is Chad Dabel's sister in law. She's married to Chad's brother and she talked about in her excellent interview.

Mindy Caldwell [00:51:27] I would, I would direct everyone to listen to that and watch that interview, if you haven't already. She spoke about after the children's remains were found in, buried in Chad's yard in Rexburg area in Idaho, there was a conference where one of the general authorities came to speak. Oh, I'm racking my brain. Uchtdorf, maybe that's right.

John Dehlin [00:51:55] I think it was uch. Dorf. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:51:57] And I think that there were many people who were just really hoping that he would address this massive elephant in the room that had happened in this community. And to my recollection, it wasn't addressed. Is that correct or am I getting it wrong on the timing? Lauren, was it after the children were found or before. Anyway, it was around this time when obviously this, this story was huge. The spotlight was on trying to find these kids or, or, you know, the events that this had happened. And I think that maybe many in that community were hoping that this top church leader would come and maybe start putting the hammer down a little bit on some of these. These extreme beliefs. And. And they were disappointed that. That nothing was addressed.

Guest 6 [00:52:46] Yeah.

Guest [00:52:47] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:52:50] we're going to say something to that, Lauren.

Guest 4 [00:52:52] No.

Lauren Matthias [00:52:53] Yeah, that story also came to my mind when we were discussing this and, and these are my own personal suspicions that they were traveling up there to see what the hell was going on. They were traveling up there to figure things out. And yeah, there were many people that have written me and said that they were hoping they would say something, be something. There was. Do something. There was a woman that wrote. I think I read the letter on your.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:24] On. On a earlier show we did last year, John, where a woman from Rexburg wrote and said, here I am in my 70s. And so many of us were taken by Chad's beliefs and we want the leaders of the church to say something. And we're confused and their silence is deafening. You know, she's like, we need guidance. We need help.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:43] So I hope, you know, that's. That's just one example and that this was. This is a Grant, a Rexburg grandmother, an active member of the church, writing me, saying that, saying, help us. You know, it's not just Heather Daybell. And I think I just going to go back to what I originally said. I think, you know, I was. I was a. In Salt Lake City. I was employed by Salt Lake and I was their southern Utah correspondent. So I covered like Hildale, Colorado City, St. George. And then I've also been a reporter in East Idah covering Rexburg, Idaho, Falls, Pocatello. So I do see some similarities there in where Salt Lake City.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:23] And I'm not just talking the church even legal, legal to government. They'll sometimes look away from what's actually going on in these little smaller, isolated areas just because it's sort of like, hey, they do their own thing. They won't bother us if we don't bother them. The old boys club is ripe and well there, you know, let them just sort of do their thing, whether it comes to the church, whether it comes to government.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:49] I've seen this pattern as a reporter over and over again, and I think there's a little bit of that going on. And the bottom line is they need to stop looking away and start doing Something.

John Dehlin [00:55:02] Yeah, yeah, and we can go on, but I'll just end by saying that. Well, I think if I'm trying to put myself in the church's shoes, if you placate the liberals, if you, if you, like, say, okay, we were wrong about racism and, and black people in the priesthood, if we were wrong about LGBT people, Joseph Smith got it wrong about this or that. Brigham Young had it wrong. Dial down these things. It's not like the liberals are going to go, oh, okay, I'm, I'm back loyal and faithful, and where do I get my temple recommended? And here's my tithing. Liberals are probably going to say, see, you were making this up all as you were going along.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] Your apologies. Almost like, reconfirm my beliefs that this isn't the true church and I'm out of here. But if you start coming down on orthodox believers and start tamping down their beliefs about the Second Coming and you start telling them Joseph or Brigham were wrong or, or you start punishing them, that's your base. And so, you know, you, you. And who knows, if some of the apostles in first presidency actually share some of the beliefs of the more extreme groups, there's also that possibility as well. And so I just think I can see why the brethren would be a lot more excited to come down on the liberals than on the conservatives.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] But that's. I think that's a problem for them because this movement's growing. There's this Doctrine of Christ movement I've been hearing about. There's the Denver Snuffer movement. There's all these preparing of people, prepper people, like by the church, not doing anything. There's this idea that silence is complicity.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] The more silent the church is and the less they're willing to come down on their fundamentalist people. They're just kind of like they're, there's. They're trading a little bit of peace today for a big, big, big headache later on. Okay, Gerardo, you can take it back over. I just think that's important.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:02] Yeah, no, totally agree. Yeah, that's kind of the point I was trying to make, but you explain it a lot better. Yeah, let's have. So let's listen to the next clip of David where he explains when, when he's being cross examined. Now, one second right there.

David Warwick Under Cross-Examination

John Dehlin [00:57:23] Can I, can I ask you guys a quick question? I don't understand. Like, you said that David was there the day J.J. was killed.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] Can, can you guys just explain that to me? What is David doing in the same room with jj. And then when he's killed, where's David? Can anyone just give me. That's shocking to me.

Guest 4 [00:57:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] Can somebody explain to me what they were all doing together and what that means for David?

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:52] Lauren, do you feel okay giving a summary of that?

Lauren Matthias [00:57:54] Yeah, yeah, if you'd like me to do that. Absolutely. Yeah. You're asking a great question, Don. I think that's the question everyone should be asking. Here's David and Melanie's explanation. And this is in every police interview. So David Warwick and Melanie Gibb were part of this inner circle growing. They were good friends with Chad and Lori. They were both having affairs at the same time, double dating. So they were also doing podcasts. A large part of this. We've talked about the conference, but another really big part of this is that people were writing books and podcasting. So they were all on each other's podcast, from preparing to people to fill the fire to, you know, everybody's got a podcast, even me.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:35] Surprise. So they were traveling up to. To Idaho to be a part of a podcast with Chad and Lori, and they were invited up to Rexburg, their friends. There was also a firm Expo conference going on then that I believe David was participating in, and Melanie Gibb wanted to go to, and they were invited to stay at Lori's town home in Rexburg. When they arrived at the town home, they did not see Tyler.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:08] David Warwick was allegedly staying in JJ's room, and Melanie Gibb was staying in Tyler's room, and JJ was staying inside the bedroom with Lori and the.

Guest 7 [00:59:21] Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:21] When they arrived, Lori stated that she believed that JJ was a zombie. They would discuss it. And then the last time anyone ever saw JJ alive was David Warwick. They were recording a podcast late at night in Lori's townhome. Alex Cox had his own town home, which I don't even know if he was living in because it was completely empty when they did the search warrant. But he took jj allegedly to babysit him while Melanie Gibb, Chad and Lori recorded this podcast. At one point during their recording of this podcast in this small town home, Alex comes in carrying JJ over his shoulder. David recalls it as a sweet moment.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:05] It looked like JJ was asleep. Alex walks him upstairs and puts him to sleep in Lori's bedroom. That's the last time anyone ever sees jj, although. And I think this is where Gerardo's going, so I'll stop. Do you want me to sit there until the middle of the night?

Guest [01:00:22] Continued?

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:24] Yeah, if you can explain it, because that's not the clip we're playing a different clip, but yeah.

Guest 2 [01:00:28] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:28] Okay, so I'll explain this. Thanks. In the middle of the night. That night they're sleeping in the same bedroom. Even though they, they told in the preliminary conference they were really worried to. They wanted people to make sure that they were not sleeping in the same bedroom. But they admit now they were sleeping in the same bedroom. Heaven forbid two middle aged lovers are sleeping in the same bedroom. But they were. And they.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:53] David woke up in the middle of the night, according to David and Melanie, with the worst nightmare of his life. Life that he's never had a worst nightmare. And no one's ever told anyone what the nightmare is about, but it was the worst nightmare of his life. And he was screaming. It was early in the morning of September 22nd, 23rd. Someone correct me on that. Whichever.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:15] Second, second. Thank you. Like one or two or three. And it was so bad that Melanie Gibb jumped up, realizing that he needed a blessing and started calling Lori and Chad. Neither of them answered their phones. And so she ran to Lori's bedroom and knocked on Lori's bedroom door in the middle of the night. Nobody answered. And then she tried the doorknob and it was locked. After that, allegedly David and Melanie went back to bed.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:45] Yeah.

Guest 6 [01:01:45] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:01:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:48] So did that answer your question, John?

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Yeah. Sounds. It's sounding shady.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] Okay, so let's keep going.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:57] So let's listen this clip where again David is being cross examined and again he has given offered his testimony to the prosecution. He didn't talk about his visions other than the nightmare. He didn't talk about countries invading other countries. He didn't talk about the conferences. So he's being asked for the first time for the jury about these things in I, I would think is because, you know, they're the. Lori's attorneys are trying to make him look bad to the jury. Like can you really trust this guy when he has all these sorts of beliefs? So let's listen to that.

Guest 6 [01:02:37] So would you call yourself a visionary man?

Guest 3 [01:02:42] Others have called me that. I don't call myself anything.

Guest 6 [01:02:47] So on your, on your speeches or your podcasts, have you shared your visions with other people?

Guest 3 [01:02:55] Yes.

Guest 6 [01:02:56] And you've had visions of secret combinations taking place in Washington D.C. judge, I'm

Guest 2 [01:03:04] going to object at this point. I fail to see the continued relevance

Guest 6 [01:03:08] of this goes to his credibility. Your honor, the state brought this up, not me.

Guest [01:03:14] It is, I think.

Guest 2 [01:03:16] I'm sorry, what?

Guest [01:03:18] People haven't ruled yet.

Guest 2 [01:03:19] I know, I apologize. Your honor.

Guest [01:03:22] What was your comment?

Guest 2 [01:03:23] Go ahead I was just going to ask, under Rule 16, Common 6, 10, is that impugning somebody's religious beliefs or going beyond the scope of this trial is impermissible cross examination?

Guest [01:03:40] Well, that door opened a long time ago in this case. I think with the context of the state's evidence. I will keep that rule in mind. I appreciate you bringing that up at this point. I do think we're still within the scope of permissible cross examination, given the direct examination. So I'll overrule the objection.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:02] I just want to pause there.

John Dehlin [01:04:04] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:04] Really quick and just comment that, that it is really interesting that the prosecution really does not want David to talk about these visions and beliefs. But just, I just note that, you know, they.

Guest 2 [01:04:21] The.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:22] The judge was about to give the ruling and then she jumped on and again, you know, express why she disagreed again and interrupted the judge. Just kind of know a little bit. Interesting. So let's just keep listening.

Guest 6 [01:04:39] You've given talks about visions of secret combinations in Washington, D.C. is that correct?

Guest 3 [01:04:48] Yes.

Guest 6 [01:04:49] You've given talks about visions of secret combinations in England and Saudi Arabia, is that right?

Guest 3 [01:04:56] Yes.

Guest 6 [01:04:58] You've given talks about evil entities in England, right?

Guest 3 [01:05:10] No, I. Not sure where that one's going.

Guest 6 [01:05:14] You've seen visions of Russia and China invading the United States?

Guest 3 [01:05:21] Yes.

Guest 6 [01:05:23] You've seen visions of Russia and China attacking the United States military and defeating us in three days?

Guest 3 [01:05:33] Yes.

Guest 6 [01:05:35] You've seen visions of United States being sacrificed for a one world government? Right.

Guest 3 [01:05:49] I didn't. I don't know where that one came from.

Guest 6 [01:05:53] You've been. Well, I didn't make this up.

Guest 3 [01:05:57] Well, the context is what's being avoided. That's why it's difficult here.

Guest 6 [01:06:01] So, okay, so what's the concept about the United States being sacrificed for a

Guest [01:06:07] one world government, Judge?

Guest 2 [01:06:09] Objection. Again, on that concept. I mean, relevance.

Guest 3 [01:06:14] All right.

Guest [01:06:14] At this point, Mr. Archwell, I do think we're getting away from the evidence of the case and directs. If you could tie this in in some way. If it does. If not, I'll sustain the objection.

Guest 6 [01:06:24] You talked about having a vision while at Lori Valow's home in September of 2019. You told that to the prosecutor, right?

Guest 2 [01:06:32] Objection. Misstates the evidence.

Guest [01:06:37] Overruled. If the witness can answer, you can correct. That's misstating evidence.

Guest 3 [01:06:44] I had a nightmare.

Guest 6 [01:06:46] So a nightmare and a vision and a vision are two different things.

Guest 4 [01:06:51] Yeah.

Guest 6 [01:06:53] So what's, what's the. How do you define a nightmare versus a vision?

Guest 3 [01:06:59] Well, it's like I was. Whatever the nightmare was about that was it Was like I was living in it.

Guest 6 [01:07:07] And a vision is just pretend?

Guest 3 [01:07:09] No, vision is when you're observing and you're being shown.

Guest 6 [01:07:15] So both the vision and a nightmare are real?

Guest 3 [01:07:21] No, not necessarily.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:25] I think we can pause there. Just. Wow. Just. That's really interesting. And a few thoughts came to me while I was listening again, because David and I think even the prosecution are trying to make the jury think that this nightmare had something to do with, with jj, you know, disappearing or being killed that night.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:49] And so I, I, I do think, while I, I don't think the Lori's lawyer has done a great job in a lot of the trial, but I think here that was really good where he's trying to say, well, you know, you had all these crazy visions, so how much weight can we put on this nightmare that you had?

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:11] That was really interesting. And I mean, it's sad, you know, that these people who are the closest to what happened, they were there, you know, they can't be relied on because of some of these things that they, they do. They go in these conferences and talk about all these crazy things. But what do you guys think?

Lauren Matthias [01:08:32] I never loved the defense more than in this moment. Yeah, I was, I was cheering them on. I was, I was live tweeting with, with speed. And just, I was so proud of what the defense, what Jim Arabal, defense attorney was doing at this moment.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:51] I, I think that that's exactly what they were trying to do, what you said, Gerardo, that they were trying to say, hey, they're trying to discredit David Warwick. Right. But I think more than that, they were also trying to say, look, there are more people responsible here. And if Lori Daybell is responsible, then so are you, David.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:13] All of you were believing this. All of you knew, all of you knew exactly what was going on. And when it comes to this nightmare, maybe that nightmare was your conscience. David. Maybe if this is real and if this is a thing, let's, let's hear what this is about.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:30] Let's hear what you knew. So I also agree with you harder that this they're showing. Look, these visions, these dreams, they're all real to these people, and they believe this stuff. There was a lot to take from this, this cross exam. It was a really, really interesting part of this case. I'd recommend everyone listening to the whole thing.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] Is it okay if I ask, like. So this Voice guy, tell me again, he's just another one of the people involved in this whole thing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:00] Oh, yeah, Voices.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] Voice is the judge.

Guest [01:10:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:02] And the guy that was just being interviewed right then.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:05] David Warwick.

John Dehlin [01:10:06] That was Warwick still. Okay. And why did they want to discredit David Warwick? Was he. What's. What's his relevance to the case for the defense?

Lauren Matthias [01:10:15] So this case is really about. I think this trial also is a bit of a who done it trial too, because the defense doesn't have much, but, you know, is. Is Lori solely responsible? I mean, Lori didn't do these killings. In other words, that's what that, that's what they've kind of been showing is Lori wasn't even in town when Tammy Dale was killed. Lori's fingerprints were not found on JJ's bag. Alex's were. So if they have no evidence for this trial that Lori Valo Debel actually committed the murders and committed the crimes, and they have to prove conspiracy theory.

Guest 2 [01:10:54] The, The.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:55] The jury selection was very much asking potential jurors, do you believe that the getaway driver is just as guilty as the bank robber? And all the jurors they chose said, yes, we understand it. We understand what conspiracy is. We understand this idea of guilt. So this trial really is based upon a. There's a lot of who done it. And so when you have David Warwick, a man who was there the night JJ was killed, and he's saying, hey, don't look at me. You know, I, I was. I, I didn't believe in this invisible temple. You know, I was just trying to be respectful. And they were mentioning JJ was a zombie, but I had nothing to do with this.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:33] I didn't believe them, and it was just a nightmare. I think that what they're trying to show is who's really responsible. I think they're trying to confuse the jury. Who is the getaway driver here? I, I don't know if the. I don't know if they're going to get very far with that. If they were, I maybe wouldn't be liking the defense so much. I think that's what they were attempting to do, in my opinion. But through doing that, they are showing that this was a group and there are a lot of responsible parties involved here.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:02] Yeah. And you have to remember that the clo, the people that can offer testimony that, you know, that were there in the moment, that the kids were disappearing, what is David, Melanie and Zulema, and all these three people are visionaries. Even though in their testimonies to the prosecution, they're trying to appear like, as very mainstream. You know, they literally said, like David said, literally, I'm a mainstream Mormon. Then later in cross examination, it comes Out. Oh, you're having all these visions and, and going to conferences and talking about it. That doesn't very. That doesn't sound very mainstream. So it goes to the credibility of these witnesses who are supposed to be the ones that are supposed, you know, to, to offer the, the testimony that's supposed to, you know, convict Lori. Does that make sense, John?

John Dehlin [01:12:53] Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Guest 3 [01:12:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] Okay. And I would think that the prosecution would not want to spread the blame around. They would want to be targeting everything at Lori, right? Not.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:06] Not exactly.

John Dehlin [01:13:07] Not having, you know, Warwick and others implicated.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:12] Exactly.

Guest 2 [01:13:12] Okay. Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:13] And that's why the prosecution didn't want David to talk about these visions and beliefs. And. But it was Lori's attorney who was questioning David about. Got it.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Okay. Got it, got it. Okay, that's. That's helpful.

Mindy Caldwell [01:13:28] On redirect, after Archibald did this whole series of questions about, about Warwick's visions and dreams. If, if I'm remembering correctly, on redirect, the prosecutor said, let's. The, the defense asked you about dreams and visions. I want to ask you about reality. You know, so I think they were trying to get it back to, like, the actual events of what happened and not focus so much on the dreams and visions.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:53] Yeah, yeah. I'm curious to hear, John, what do you think about all these visions that he's talking about and that he's talking about in these conferences, you know, giving talks about Russia in China invading the US in three days? And, and what are your thoughts?

John Dehlin [01:14:11] I mean, just. Just in a general perspective, that's the restoration. And this is just my opinion, but the more the Mormon restoration, and we, I think we probably talked about this last, you know, in part one. That's the whole selling point of the. The LDS Church restoration. It's that other churches believe that God kind of stopped communicating with mankind and that miracles kind of stopped around the time the Bible was, quote, written and finished.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] And, you know, the whole selling point of the proposition value of Mormonism generally is, no, no, no, God is still speaking to his children through prophets, but also individual members, if they're faithful and righteous, and if they believe in the restoration, they have gifts.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] And even the articles of faith, the LDS Church Articles of faith, we believe in, you know, we believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelations, visions, healing, and in the interpretations of tongues, etc. That's in the Mormon Church's 13 articles of faith. And let me say that again, we believe in the gifts of tongues. That's like, you know, that's like Pentecostals Speaking in tongues. We believe in the gift of tongues. Prophecy, revelation, visions and healing. I mean that's, that's as Mormon as it gets. If it's in One of the 13 articles of faith and a apologist Mormon might go, oh, well, that means the prophet, no, like, like Mormon Church would teach that individual Mormons within their realm, within their sphere, have the right, have the ability to have prophecies, revelations, visions, healing.

John Dehlin [01:15:56] And that's why there's Father Bus, Father's blessings within a Mormon family. Because a Mormon father is allowed to have prophecies, revelations, visions and healings within his domain. The only credible apologetic defense I could imagine an orthodox Mormon giving to this scenario is that maybe it's not some random Mormon's job to get a revelation or a vision about the world or about, you know, the end of times. That maybe that's more the prophet's job than the individual lay members job. But there's certainly nothing forbidding it. And so this is where supernatural teachings can just really easily get out of hand. And it got out of hand in Joseph's time when some of his peers started getting revelations that Joseph didn't like.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] And Joseph had to tamp those down because there can't be too many people receiving revelations and prophecies or they start to conflict with each other and it's getting out of hand. Now you know that. That's my reaction. Gerardo. That's a very generic response, but I hope it's touching on what. What you were wanting to know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:07] Yeah, totally. Yep. Thanks. So the next thing we're going to talk about is

Colby Ryan's Phone Call and Lori's Reaction

Guest 6 [01:17:16] so would you call

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:17] yourself interesting was Kobe Ryan's. So Colby Ryan is the first son of Lord Valo. And uh, what's interesting about this is that there was a recording from a phone call that Colby did to Lori while she's in jail. And they play the recording. So we're gonna play for you guys this East Idaho News was able to enhance the audio. So we're gonna play it, the video from. From them. And I'm just gonna play part of it. We're not gonna play it all, but you can go back and listen to it after.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [01:18:01] Do you think you can hide from me? Probably because you murdered my siblings. It's probably why. Maybe you should understand.

Video Clip 3 [01:18:18] I didn't. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

Video Clip 3 [01:18:21] You didn't do anything, Mom. I've prayed for you. In my worst moments, I prayed for my siblings, who you swore to me were okay. I thought I could trust you. I thought that you were a completely different person. I don't know.

Video Clip 3 [01:18:58] I don't know.

Video Clip 3 [01:18:59] You can make judgments when you weren't there. And you don't know what happened.

Video Clip 3 [01:19:03] How what happened?

Video Clip 3 [01:19:04] Everyone's making their own judgments, Mom.

Video Clip 3 [01:19:07] You. Them shoving DS on my door for a very long time. I'm going to talk to you. Hey, listen to me. I'm not mad. Listen to me. Fine. Listen to me. I sat there and prayed. I can't tell you the amount of pain that I felt from your decisions in Jesus Christ's name.

Video Clip 3 [01:19:31] It kills me to watch you sitting here and tell me this is a trial. It kills me to watch you take the victims you out and say that this shouldn't have happened to you. When you are telling me that Chad Daigle came into your life and all of a sudden everything changes. And I'm talking about my spirit feeling this.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:01] I prayed. I trusted you. I gave you every chance I could past my own limitations as a human being. I pushed past all of everything to try to get to you. To help my own mother. You lied to me.

Video Clip 3 [01:20:23] Specifically to me. More times than I can. To know that they're gone. And you knew. And my phone's being texted by my little sister, who's not even alive. My little brother, who's the sweetest little kid ever. For what purpose can you tell me if this is God's will? For my whole family, including my stepfather, to be dead?

Video Clip 3 [01:21:02] After everything you try to tell me, you can tell me right now that Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, is on your son. You tell me that with all the conviction in your heart that Jesus Christ is on your side right now.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:20] Please.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:25] I can't tell you that.

Video Clip 3 [01:21:28] Say it to me. Say his name. Say that he told you and you followed him on exactness. Because I have prayed for you. I sat there and tried my best to. For the key. Give you. And Chad and Alex. And I was deceived. And I was broken by my own mother. What are you doing? What are you doing? I breathe to heavenly Father and I said, you tell me, Father,

Video Clip 3 [01:22:34] Because you weren't there.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:36] So he.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:38] You're right. I wasn't there. I was kept.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:41] And one day you will know.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:43] Murder.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:44] One day murder.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:46] You will know what actually happened.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:49] You're right. Because you know what?

Video Clip 3 [01:22:51] And we all will stand there.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:53] Everything.

Video Clip 3 [01:22:55] You're absolutely right. He will convict the people who act in his name. Pure blasphemy. This funny? This is funny? This is funny? You're laughing like this is funny. How come your cameras are on, Mom? You don't want to look at me in the eye. Why can't you look at me? It's just you and me. I'm in my house, alone.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:23] I love you. I always will. One day you will see, and one day you will understand.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:28] Go ahead and hang. See how that works for you. You going to hang up? I don't.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:32] I don't have anything else to say. You obviously don't know.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:36] You weren't there.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:37] You weren't there.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:38] Summer wasn't there. My mom wasn't there.

Video Clip 3 [01:23:41] The police weren't there, the FBI weren't there. Nobody was there. Yeah, and guess what? They know. They know exactly what happened. And they love me. And we are still together forever. They love me, and they are fine. And they do know the truth. And I know the truth. And we're the only people that do. So you can judge me, Colby, all day long. Go ahead and judge me.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:07] The whole world has.

Video Clip 3 [01:24:08] The whole world has judged me. They don't know. And you don't know. You don't know what I've been through. And you didn't even give a crap what they've been through. Nobody does. Except for me.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Holy moly.

Guest 6 [01:24:26] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:29] So bizarre. I would. I would like to hear you guys thoughts when you. When you listen to this and, and what you think, John.

John Dehlin [01:24:42] No, I shouldn't go first. I'll go last.

Lauren Matthias [01:24:44] I mean, it's. It's com. It's as compelling now as it. As it was then. You know, I. Again, I was in the courtroom when this was being played. There were tears by so many. Colby was there, you know, listening. Lori was there. Lori was crying. Lori Dell. It was a really overwhelming moment. And I'm, you know, even now listening. I'm just as compelled now to listen to Colby and, and Lori's conversation as I was then.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:13] It was a very powerful moment. It was a moment no one's going to forget in court. For her to say that JG And Tyler know and that they love me. I mean, there's so many shocking things. You know, clearly Colby was raised in a really religious home. And one thing that I found interesting in this call was that he says to his mother, say it in the name of Jesus Christ. Tell me you did this. And name of Jesus Christ. And he. He repeats that over and over in, in the call. The call's about 15 minutes total. And at one point, yes, she does sort of imply that it was done that, you know, but through his name.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:52] But she never says it. She never says yes to him, you know, this was done in Jesus Christ's name. And, you know, whatever that is, they understand each other. I thought that was interesting, but it's a shocking, heartbreaking call.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:10] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:11] I've listened to this call several times now, and it still just hits me to the core. And when Lori laughs, like, it just sends a chill up my spine. Literally, I get chills when she laughs.

Guest 5 [01:26:26] It's just.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:27] He's just in such agony trying to get answers from his mom, and she laughs. I mean, it's just so chilling, and I think it just illustrates just how deeply warped her perception of this whole situation really is. It's just. Oh, just my heart goes out to. Every time I listen to that call. And like Lauren, I would suggest the whole call is he gets. He gets angrier and more accusatory as the call goes on.

Guest 2 [01:27:02] But.

Mindy Caldwell [01:27:04] And, you know, rightfully so. It's just so chilling trying to get answers from his mom, who just cannot tell him the truth.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:11] To me, something really interesting was. I mean, Lauren said it was not straightforward, but does she does imply that Jesus is on her side? It is. It is kind of frightening, especially then when you. When she says also that they're sealed together and it doesn't matter that they're dead because they're going to be together forever. I mean, that also implies that. That she thinks she's righteous and that she's doing the right things. Just really, really bizarre and sad. John, do you have thoughts?

John Dehlin [01:27:47] I've got a million thoughts. So, first of all, when I was listening to that, it sounded like someone was sniffling in the recording. Did I hear that right, or is that someone on this panel?

Mindy Caldwell [01:27:58] Colby was on the stand at the time that the call was being played to the jury in the. In the courtroom. And I believe the sniffling you hear is Colby on the stand with.

Guest 7 [01:28:09] With.

Mindy Caldwell [01:28:10] He's. He's sniffling as he's listening to this call.

John Dehlin [01:28:13] It's just hard. It must have been heartbreaking to watch and that I feel sorry for Colby. Be okay. The next question is, you know, when she's saying, one day you will know. No one was there. I was there. How does that not immediately implicate her as being an accomplice? Because she's basically, in effect, saying, I was there, and I know what happened. We know that they ended up in the ground, buried and dead. So how is that not, like, fatal to her case right there? She's an accomplice. I've got a couple more questions, but am I. Am I missing something there? Is that a fair Connection to draw. Anybody want to pine on that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:55] I don't think she directly says, I know what happens. She says, nobody knows. The FBI doesn't know, the police doesn't know, Summer doesn't know. And, but she does say, like, I know what happened. She doesn't say I was there. She says, I know what happened.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] I mean, how else would she know what happened?

Guest 8 [01:29:13] Right?

John Dehlin [01:29:14] I mean, it applies. She knows what happened.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:17] Yeah, well, I think that's why they played it. I think that's what they're hoping. This was the prosecution. And, and they're playing this. And I think that's exactly why they were playing it, hoping that it would implicate her. But yes, as Ferrar says it, you know, it depends on how you take it and how you interpret it.

Guest 2 [01:29:33] But.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:34] But yeah, Lori has never confessed in this call as well as Summers might be the closest she comes to that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:41] And remember, John, that this on criminal cases you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt.

Guest [01:29:47] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:47] So, like, if she's not saying I was there, you know, there is a reasonable doubt that maybe she wasn't and she just found out, found out later. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:29:56] Yeah, well, okay, well, that, to me, that was a red, a bit of a red flag. The only other thing I'll say, just commenting about Mormonism generally is this, is this is the problem with this teaching about personal revelation.

John Dehlin [01:30:11] And, and you know, I've often said on Mormon stories like it should be, in my opinion, it should be against the law for anyone to say that they spoke for God and know what God's will is for everybody else. It's just too much power and it's too subjective. This idea that you can know God's will, God the creator of the universe, the all powerful being where any behavior is justified. Let's just face it, if you. A literal reading of the Old Testament is that God, if he wants to, can and will murder every human on the planet, as exemplified by the Noah's Flood. Right. I mean, a literal reading of the Old Testament says that, like God wasn't crazy about how humans were behaving, so he sent a flood to kill every, everyone and to kind of reboot humanity.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] That's the God of the Old Testament. Or if you take it even, you know, a couple books later, God favors the Israelites. And if the Israelites need to wipe out the Canaanites, and not just the warriors, but the men, women, children and animals, God's going to send the Israelites to go wipe out the Canaanites like you There's a reading of Mormon scripture, and it's even Christian scripture or Jewish scripture. And then that even comes into play with the Book of Mormon where God tells Nephi to chop off the head of Laban. There's this literal reading of Christian and Mormon scripture that God can murder anyone God wants to.

John Dehlin [01:31:38] And God can tell humans to murder whoever God wants to tell humans to murder if he wants to. Which, again, we talked about in the last episode being played out with the Lafferty brothers. And the book under the Banner of Heaven and the movie under the Banner of Heaven, like, this is all really problematic. And, you know, if the Food and Drug Administration or the federal government wants to ban certain substances because they can be fatal, like fentanyl or cyanide, Right. They'll ban the substance because they know it can be lethal, right? Not always lethal, but can be lethal. Well, sometimes ideas can be lethal.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] And the idea that you might be able to murder if you feel like God is telling you it's okay to murder, that's a lethal idea. That's as lethal as a drug. And so in this case, it's. It's bizarre that she clearly feels. She seems sincere, but because her son, who I'm sure she loves, is yelling at her and she's like, well, I don't feel guilt and shame because I know God is okay with what happened. God has told me this is fine. I'm fine with Jesus. I'm fine with my dead children.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] It's because she's come to believe that if she's had certain feelings, certain thoughts, certain visions, certain dreams, that really any behavior is justifiable. And that's the problem with the Mormon and. Or Christian idea of personal revelation to its full extent, because, you know, it's not just subjective, but. But scriptures allow.

John Dehlin [01:33:22] Mormon and Christian scriptures allow for murder if the person simply feels like God is okay with it. And I don't know how we fix it, because I'm not one to ban religious beliefs, but this is a deadly belief that should be viewed as. As dangerous, just like a lethal substance, in my opinion. And I know. I don't know how to deal with this on a public policy perspective, but that's my reading of what's going on here is she feels justified because she has had certain feelings that she's interpreted as God and Jesus's approval of this behavior. And so she doesn't even feel guilt or remorse.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] She's like, I'm good. I don't know. Your problem is, Colby, you're sad. But I'M good with God. And someday you'll talk to God and Jesus and they'll tell you that these zombie children deserved to die because they were possessed. And it was necessary for God and Jesus's will that these zombie children be murdered for other things to happen. Right?

Guest 6 [01:34:29] Yeah. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:31] So bizarre.

John Dehlin [01:34:33] Am I misreading it, guys? You guys know this case better than me.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:36] I think that's exactly what's going on.

Lauren Matthias [01:34:39] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:34:40] Okay.

Guest 6 [01:34:40] Yeah.

JJ Vallow: Autopsy and Cause of Death

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:42] So we're gonna move on now to, like, a sad part of the. The trial, unlike what we've heard so far.

Guest [01:34:52] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:53] Yeah, it gets worse, man. And I. I really wanted to. Even though it might be a little graphic for some of our audience, and I do want to give that warning. I do think it's important to. To talk about it, especially because Lauren was there while all of this evidence was being talked about and this picture has been being displayed, and. And I want to hear what she has to say. So. So let's. Let's just play a clip about the manner of death of jj. So here we go.

Guest [01:35:30] One sec.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:36] Based on that particular autopsy and based

Guest [01:35:39] upon your education, training, and experience, have you formed an expert opinion concerning the cause of death of J.J. vallow?

Guest 8 [01:35:46] I have.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:47] What was that?

Guest 8 [01:35:48] I determined the cause of death to be asphyxia by plastic bag over the head and duct tape covering the mouth. And then there's another segment that's other significant conditions. I put bound with duct tape, bruising of the arms and abrasions of the neck. But ultimately, the cause of death was asphyxia by plastic bag over the head. The head and duct tape over the mouth.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:22] And do you make a determination as

Guest [01:36:23] to the manner of death

Lauren Matthias [01:36:26] if the

Guest 8 [01:36:27] autopsy is performed in Ada County? I do. We. We mentioned that there's a contract between other counties. We perform autopsies for a wide variety of counties around the state of Idaho because there aren't enough forensic pathologists out there in those cases. Our contract essentially says that we'll do the cause and then the coroner will do the manner of death.

Guest 2 [01:36:56] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:59] I.

Guest [01:37:03] When you commenced your autopsy of J.J.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:07] valo, can you describe for the jury what you initially observed?

Guest 8 [01:37:14] So, initially, the bag. The body came within a sealed body bag, and it's sealed because we want to preserve evidence. It's just a way of us feeling confident that nobody's gotten into the bag or something's happened. So as for evidence preservation. So we broke the seal on the bag and opened that bag up, and then we.

Guest 8 [01:37:42] The body was further enclosed within a black plastic tarp. That was held together with mold, multiple strips of duct tape. And then we opened that up, and that was the first time that you could actually see the body.

Guest 8 [01:38:04] Right. Right from the beginning, there were some things that obviously jumped out. One, there was a plastic. A white plastic bag over JJ's head, and it was wrapped around the face multiple times with duct tape all the way down to the neck.

Guest 8 [01:38:25] In addition, the forearms and the hands were bound with duct tape, and the ankles were bound with duct tape. JJ was wearing red pajama tops, red pajama bottoms, and black socks.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:48] Yeah, I saw you having a moment there, Lauren.

Guest 3 [01:38:53] Do you.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:54] Do you want to just tell us how was it hearing this at the trial? What was the feeling in the. In the room and the jury? What was your experience?

Lauren Matthias [01:39:09] Yeah, no, yeah, sorry. It's. It's actually a lot easier to hear that when you're live tweeting, because live tweeting takes you. Keeps you busy while you're hearing such horrible things done to an innocent child. I think that for those that know the case well, I'll talk about us. You know, the gallery in the courtroom, it was like everyone's hearing everyone's worst fear. I think that for three years, we all just maybe hope that it was a little bit peaceful. I mean, not that any death, you know, murder, is peaceful, but maybe they drugged him or maybe he was unconscious, or maybe, you know, something happened before they did something so horrendous.

Lauren Matthias [01:39:48] And to hear how he was bound to hear that he was suffocated with the plastic bag. We also learned. We also learned that there were scratches on his neck, which means that JJ was trying to take the plastic bag off of his head, and that it was duct taped and tie tight around his neck as well. And that he had bruises on his forearms, meaning he was struggling. Symmetrical bruising. This was a kid, a sweet child who. Who really suffered in his last moments by the people that were supposed to protect him. And. And jurors were crying. Multiple jurors, male and female.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:28] Lori wouldn't look up and look at anyone. She was not happy to be there. And people in the gallery were crying. And then after this all happened, there was a. A recess, a quick break, and JJ's half brothers who were there, Charles, Bella, sons, that they were weeping. Larry Woodcock was weeping. It was. It was an awful moment and a realization of just how disgusting and brutal this crime is.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:05] Yeah. Really, really sad. Mindy, do you want to just talk to us about what you're feeling?

Mindy Caldwell [01:41:14] Oh, I'm just. I Shed a lot of tears this week over, over this case. You know, we followed it so closely. But as Lauren said, that part of the testimony was very, just so crushing. I likewise was hopeful that, that JJ didn't suffer as much as it sounds like he did prior to his death. His, he had bruising under his fingernails and then there were scratches on his neck which indicate that he, he likely struggled to, to get the bag off. Off of his head. And it's just so sad.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:02] Yeah. Yeah. Just really horrible. Really horrible. And just thinking back on, on the, the phone call that we listened to to and that this woman who's supposed to be the one protecting him like Lauren said, believes that Jesus is on her side. Just really bizarre.

Theories on JJ's Death and His Burial

John Dehlin [01:42:25] I have a, I have a question if it's okay just for the. Is there anyone have any of you who have really studied the evidence and the timelines and the participants? Do we have any idea, even a theory based on all the different evidence that's been unveiled? Do we have a theory about what happened that night? Where people were, who, who were and weren't involved and who, you know, can anybody reconstruct a theory about maybe where Lori was when this was happening to JJ and who else might have helped?

Guest 4 [01:43:02] Do.

John Dehlin [01:43:02] Do we have any theories?

Lauren Matthias [01:43:04] There are, there are definitely theories. I can share mine. There's no solid. There's no solid. This is what happened. There is a lot of evidence and then people take the evidence and they can decide. I think that we know that he died in the middle of the night and I think we know that his body was buried the next morning in Chad Daybell's yard in a two foot grave. We have pings, so we have pings and texts and locations of different devices throughout the middle of the night in the town home of Lori's with, at Alex's and at Chad's the next morning when there was.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:46] We believe he was buried. So that's all evidence. And then you throw in David Warwick and Melanie Gibbs nightmare because I'm not going to let those two go. Just throw that in to the middle of the night mix. We know that Lori Daybell has stated that everyone was believing that J.J. might be a zombie the day before and that Lori DL said he. In the middle of the night he said this to David Warwick and David testified to this in court during this trial that Lauria, the next morning they were leaving. You know, they left very quickly the next morning. Melanie Gibbon, David Warwick and Lori they said where's J?

Lauren Matthias [01:44:21] JJ and Lori said that in the middle of the night he had been possessed. You know, he was on top of counters above the refrigerator and that he had knocked off a photo of Jesus and. And he was nowhere to be found.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:37] So I think there was clearly a lot of noise in the middle of the night. He was still wearing a little pull up diaper as well, an overnight diaper. You know, he's in his pajamas. What I think happened. So this is. So that's what we know. So I'm going to reiterate, this is my theory, my theory only. I do not know.

John Dehlin [01:44:58] And again, they're all sleeping. Where. Where are they sleeping?

Lauren Matthias [01:45:00] So Melanie Gibb and David Warwick, there are three bedrooms in this town home, all upstairs.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] And who's. There's town home.

Guest 4 [01:45:08] Who's town home?

Lauren Matthias [01:45:08] Lori. Lori Ballo Daybell's townhome in Rexburg, Idaho.

John Dehlin [01:45:11] Okay, got it. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:12] There are three bedrooms in this town home. Jj, Tyler's and Lori's all right, next to each other. Clearly Tyler's already dead. And in JJ's bedroom is, or it might have been Tyler's bedroom is where Melanie Gibb and David Warwick are sleeping together in the same bed. The other bedroom, I don't know, is either allegedly empty. And then we know from Melanie Gibb that Lori Daybell's door was locked in the middle of the night. We also know that Chad. Oh, this is important. Chad was there earlier in the day. And we learned in court that there were two times that Chad took JJ upstairs alone to Lori Daybell's town house bedroom to discipline jj and that Chad came downstairs with scratches on his neck. Chad is a 6 foot 3. He's tall. Chad's tall. He might look like a potato, but he's tall.

Guest [01:46:04] Tall.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:05] And this little boy's 7 years old. I don't know how Chad got scratches on his neck from trying to discipline a six year old. So we also know now that Chad was alone at least twice with JJ disciplining him. So I don't think Chad's hands are clean either. I suspect now from everything I know that JJ was being held down in the middle of the night, that he was being wild and making noise in the middle of the night. This is a small town home, so I suspect Melanie Gibb and David Warren Warwick heard. I can't imagine they wouldn't. So there's their nightmare. And I believe that maybe perhaps two people were holding JJ down.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:41] And because of the bruises, I don't think someone could duct tape him and bind him without help holding him down. So I don't know who those two people are, but I do wonder if Chad was involved. And I believe that I, you know, from there, I don't know. But I think two people were involved in his death, whether Chad, Laurie, Alex, Chad, Lori, Alex. I think that perhaps that's when the door was locked and Melanie Gibb was trying to get in.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:18] Yeah. Does that make sense, John?

John Dehlin [01:47:21] Yeah. Did you want to add something, Mindy?

Guest 2 [01:47:23] No.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:23] I think she covered those events, and I think a lot of people speculate similarly to. To where Lauren is going with that.

John Dehlin [01:47:32] Part of me just wants to think it was only Alex. I don't know why, but part of me doesn't want to think even Chad would have been involved. Like, I just. I. I want to think that only one human in the world would be this awful, not potentially two or more.

Guest [01:47:45] Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:45] I don't know. That's weird. My reaction.

Gerardo Sumano [01:47:49] We. We know that the. That there's cell phone pings, though, of Chad and Alex both around the same time in the yard in the backyard of. Of Chad Daybell. Is that right? So at least. At least on the burials, he helped. At least, you know, we know, like, potentially he could have helped.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:09] The burial was done. Of JJ was done, they say, with precision as. And let's remember that Chad Dabel was a cemetery sexton, and he helped dig graves for a time. And they said it was done. It was very clear that someone knew how to make sure that wild animals didn't get JJ's body. I was. He was buried three feet underground, and on top of JJ's body, they had stones or planks, wood planks. And then on top of the planks, they had stone and bricks. This was. It was. Was a expert burial, in a sense, which would imply that. And. And Alex wasn't there very long, which also means that Alex was. Alex's device was pinged at Chad Dbell's property that next morning, but he wasn't there very long, which means, I think he essentially allowed Chad to do the burial. He dropped JJ's body off and didn't stay very long.

Guest [01:49:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:07] And it's on Chad's. I mean, it's on Chad's property.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:10] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] I mean, that's. That's significant, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:12] Yeah. And they've held tools on. On Chad's home with that. That, you know, with Tyler's DNA in them, too.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:22] That's correct, yeah. Chad's tools.

Guest 2 [01:49:25] Chat.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:25] Multiple tools. Wasn't one of them a pitchfork or X?

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:29] It was a pickaxe.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:30] Pickaxe.

Mindy Caldwell [01:49:31] They described it.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:32] DNA on It.

Guest 6 [01:49:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:35] So, I mean, a. One explanation for this maybe is that. Is that they believed that. That. That JJ was possessed by an evil spirit. They knew he had to go, that somehow he was hindering the plan, the great plan of redemption, whatever they would call their plan. So they had to snuff him out like others had been stuffed out before. And so this was the night that they took care of it.

Guest 7 [01:50:00] And.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] And then they. The God was okay with it, that by this point he was a zombie, which meant that. That evil spirits had taken him over and his spirit had already gone to heaven. So in effect, he was already dead. So if you murder a zombie, is it really a sin? Because if JJ's spirit had already gone to heavenly Father, then they were just killing a zombie. So in their minds, they're killing a zombie that God and Jesus have approved, removed it, and they're just getting rid of this evil spirit, getting rid of this body so that they could continue the work. And Chad's okay with it because Chad wants the work to continue as well. Is that. Yeah, kind of.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:40] I think they view it as probably a mercy killing. You know, they're. They're. They're releasing this evil spirit from this person that they love and so that

John Dehlin [01:50:49] doing JJ a favor.

Guest 2 [01:50:51] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:51] And Tyler too.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:53] Oh, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:56] And Charles.

Guest 2 [01:50:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] And Heavenly Father, they're trying to help Jesus. Come again? So they're doing heavenly Father and Jesus's work. Right?

Guest [01:51:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] Everybody's on board.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:10] Yeah. What's going to be interesting is to hear now the next. The next clip with Tammy Daybells, which is chad's wife of 15 years. Right. Is that right, Mindy?

Tammy Daybell's Death and the Medical Evidence

Mindy Caldwell [01:51:24] 29 years.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:24] They're married 29 years. Sorry. Thanks. Yeah, 29 years. Wife. How she. The manner of death for Tammy Daybell. So let's. Let's play that clip.

Guest 5 [01:51:40] And again on that photo, that was the condition that the sputum and the floor was in at the time you arrived? Yes. And you had. You did indicate. Chad said he had been wiping it. Do you know if he'd wiped it prior to your arrival?

Lauren Matthias [01:51:56] Yes, because when I grabbed the towel, it had residue on it, the blood.

Guest 5 [01:52:03] So you're unaware if this was the condition that Chad first found her in as far as where the blood in the sputum was?

Guest 2 [01:52:11] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:11] Unaware of that.

Guest 5 [01:52:13] And we talked about that. You attended an autopsy that was performed at the office of the Utah medical examiner or performed by them?

Guest 2 [01:52:21] Yes.

Guest 5 [01:52:23] Were you able to be present for the duration of the autopsy? Yes. Does the medical examiner do a much more Extensive exam of the body than you were able to do on scene?

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:36] Yes, much more extensive.

Guest 5 [01:52:39] Do you know if the medical examiner had more information from external sources than you had at the time you responded?

Guest 2 [01:52:46] Yes.

Guest 6 [01:52:47] And I'll object, your honor, that the only way she can answer that is through hearsay.

Guest [01:52:54] Give me just a second. At this point, I'll over with that objection.

Guest 5 [01:53:05] And I think you'd already answered that. The answer was yes.

Guest 2 [01:53:08] Yes.

Guest 5 [01:53:17] Do you know what the findings of the medical examiner were?

Guest 2 [01:53:20] Yes.

Guest 5 [01:53:21] What did they find the manner of death to be?

Guest 2 [01:53:24] Asphyxiation. Suffocation.

Guest 5 [01:53:26] And was that the cause or the

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:28] manner that was the cause.

Guest 5 [01:53:30] Do you know what they determine the manner to be?

Lauren Matthias [01:53:32] Manner was homicide.

Guest 5 [01:53:34] So they determined the manner to be homicide.

Guest 2 [01:53:36] Yes.

Guest 5 [01:53:37] And the cause to be asphyxiation.

Guest [01:53:39] Yes.

Guest 5 [01:53:42] Do you have any reason to refute the findings of that autopsy?

Guest 2 [01:53:45] No.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:49] Yeah, that was hard to hear. And also I wanted to include the clip with where they're talking about the foam coming out of Tammy's mouth. Because, Mindy, and we've talked about this before, but I, if you can give the. Our audience just a summary on when the body was found. Originally, when Chad calls 911.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:12] So Chad calls 91 1, you know, says that his wife is death or that I, I think it's actually his child who calls 911 originally and he picks, he gets the phone, says, my, my, my, my wife is dead. You can go and hear the 911 call later if you want to, but.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:32] And then someone comes in the scene to look at what's going on. And, and then there's no autopsy. But then later, later, later the body is exhumed and then autopsy is performed later on. But Mindy, can you just give us like a summary of, of who's the one that comes in if you don't remember.

John Dehlin [01:54:52] And also just, Mindy, if you'll also tell us why we're talking about Tammy, if we know that Lori wasn't Lori in Hawaii when Tammy died.

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:03] Yes, she was.

John Dehlin [01:55:04] So if this is, and I'm sure there's a good reason for this, but if Laurie wasn't even in the continental U.S. when Tammy died, why are they even talking about it at her trial?

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:16] I think it all stems back to the conspiracy charges that she just was involved in the planning, maybe not the execution of, of Tammy's murder, but she was involved in the planning.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:27] Yeah. So for Tammy Dable, my understanding is that there's charges against Lori for conspiracy to commit the murder of Tammy. There's there's no murder charges for Tammy like there is for. For J.J. and, and Tyler.

Guest 4 [01:55:41] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:41] There's conspiracy charges for Tammy.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] Got it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:44] And they talk about text exchanges between Chad and Lori in the weeks leading up to when Tammy died, and where Chad explains to Lori, she's not gone yet. It hasn't happened yet. So they were, you know, they were talking about.

Mindy Caldwell [01:56:00] He was open with Lori about the expectation that Tammy would die. And I think it's important to note when we're talking about zombies, we mentioned zombies occupying the other people who are deceased at this point. And Tammy was also.

Mindy Caldwell [01:56:16] Chad told the group that Tammy had also been taken over by a zombie shortly before her, before she was killed. So that kind of ties into the whole zombie theory as well. But, yes, the 911 call was made, I think, at 5:40 in the morning by Garth, Chad and Tammy's oldest son. And I do think that Chad took over on the call. And he seemed, by all accounts, everybody who arrived on the scene, Chad seemed very distraught, very upset.

Mindy Caldwell [01:56:46] It was a police officer that first arrived. She noticed that Tammy was lying on her back on the bed. Chad claimed that Tammy had fallen out of the bed that she'd gotten. He'd adjusted the sheets, and him adjusting the sheets had caused her to roll off the bed.

Mindy Caldwell [01:57:02] And he and Garth picked her up later on her back on the bed. The police officer arrived. She noticed this foamy substance coming out of Tammy's mouth. And the police officer says that she thought it was bizarre. And she even searched on her phone about, like, poisonings that would cause this foamy substance to come out. So she wasn't. She didn't have a lot of experience with it. In fact, all three, there's a police officer and an assistant coroner, and the coroner came to the scene, and all of them testified that they didn't have a lot of experience with seeing this foamy substance coming out of Tammy's mouth.

Mindy Caldwell [01:57:41] Which I actually asked my husband, he's a physician, to help me understand what would cause that. He said in a case where somebody is being smothered or suffocated, that all of the cells that are in your lungs swell under that trauma. And so it's called pulmonary edema or swelling of the lung tissue. And that is what that trauma from trying to get oxygen and not being able to get oxygen would. Would cause, you know, those vessels to be damaged, and that would cause that. That bloody sputumy foam to come out of her mouth. And I think Lauren can probably describe, because she was in the, she was in the corner courtroom at the time and I saw the actual photos. I just listened to descriptions of the photos. But Lauren could maybe speak to a little bit more on that.

Lauren Matthias [01:58:31] There was a lot we'd always heard of the pink foam. That was something that, you know, the true crime community had been hearing, people following this case, rumors of Emma Daybell discussing pink foam coming from her mother. But nobody had ever seen an autopsy. No one had ever heard from the coroner. No one had ever heard what, how much pink foam. And yes, we saw, we saw photos of the scene. We saw photos of Tammy Daybell deceased in her bed and it looked like blood coming from her mouth. I couldn't necessarily see the foam but they showed close ups of it. There was a lot coming out.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:09] And yeah, my first thought was, well, why wasn't Chad wiping it off? Because you would think that would implicate him. Of course it didn't. They didn't even allow an autopsy to happen then. Don't get me started. But you know, why would he not be wiping it off? And, and then we learned that he had been over and over and over again. And the coroner, Brenda D. Said that when she took the same towel to wipe it off. Yeah, more just kept coming, more and more. So that's really interesting what Mindy's husband said about it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:38] So basically they tried to clean it or Chad tried to clean, clean it before someone came in from 991 1. But then it just keep, kept coming to the point where like the person that came and cleaned it, it just, it just came out again. And I, I think there's a lot of people wondering why that was not suspicious. People testified that were there, you know, that responded to the 911 call that they thought it was suspicious but somehow they believe Chad's story that he was just natural death and allowed it to go without an autopsy.

Mindy Caldwell [02:00:15] Yeah, Chad just as this time with these, the coroner than the police officer in his home, he kept adding on to his story of Tammy's medical history. So he was, you know, he, he had, he had prepared what he was going to say likely about that she hadn't been feeling well, that she, he did say that she was up at midnight vomiting and that Garth witnessed that.

Mindy Caldwell [02:00:43] So I don't know what caused that. But she had been dead for several hours. The coroner determined by the time she, by the time they arrived because of how the blood had settled in her body. It's called lividity and how the blood had settled.

Mindy Caldwell [02:00:58] But if I'm remembering right The, I think Chad was probably feeling nervous about this sputum coming out of Tammy's mouth and this foam. And then the coroner asked about it, and then he said something like, oh, she has these leg tremors and she sometimes has seizures. Which he hadn't offered that information before he noticed or before the coroner mentioned the foam. And so it's something that he didn't bring up initially, but then when they're trying to determine what the cause of the foam coming out her mouth, maybe. So perhaps he was planning a, a theory that she had had a seizure and that was maybe what was causing the foam.

Guest 3 [02:01:37] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:37] And Mindy and I, Mindy, we, you and I talked on the phone before this episode, and we were wondering if there was some LDS bias on believing Chat's story, you know, and, and not performing the autopsy. You know, you're, this is a very Mormon town. You, you, you, you probably see pictures of Jesus on the wall, you know, and all the kids. Your first thought is probably is not, you know, fall play. And yeah, so it is sad that they were not able to determine the cause of death of Tammy back then. It, it would have stopped, you know, at least early on, earlier, some of this, or it would have caused them to get caught earlier and not get away with, you know, going to Hawaii and all this stuff.

Guest 4 [02:02:28] But.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:28] Yeah. John, do you have any thoughts?

John Dehlin [02:02:32] I mean, horrible. Yeah, unspeakably horrible. The fact, I mean, we're probably gonna talk about this, but the fact that Chad requested that no autopsy be performed.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:45] Just is. I can't think of something more damning other than like, video of him doing the murder. You know, I don't know if we think Alex did this one, too, or if we think Chad did this himself or somebody else, but I, I, I, if, if you guys have any comments on that, I want to hear it. But also I'm just wondering if any of this had any meaningful connection back to Lori in terms of the intention of the prosecution.

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:13] We know that Alex was in the area that night because of phone pings. I don't believe that they pinged him at exactly Chad's address, but I believe he was in, like, a church parking lot that was nearby on the night that Tammy died. So I do think that there is cause to believe that he was somehow involved in the, in the death of Tammy. And about the autopsy, you know, of course, first hindsight, it seemed so bizarre at the time that, that nothing happened.

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:44] And the, the lawyers questioned the coroners and the police officer if they'd ever Heard the name Lori Valo or Alex Cox and, you know, just nobody knew about this case. And so, of course, you know, had. They had more information. But yeah, it, it did seem pretty, you know, bizarre at the time that a, that, that a. An autopsy wasn't performed. And they claim that Emma, who is Chad and Tammy's daughter, who lives, I believe, across the street from. From the residence that she was in, she was the one that was insistent about not having an autopsy on Tammy. She didn't want her mother's body to have to go through that process of having an autopsy. So that's what they testified to.

Guest 6 [02:04:26] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:27] And we don't know for sure, but at least, you know, the last thing we've heard of most, if not all of his children is that they stand behind Chad. And they still. Well, as far as we knew, they still believe that Chad didn't have anything to do with any of this. Yeah. Kind of bizarre. Well, there's another, another part that we were just. I thought it was interesting and, and Mindy thought was really interesting of while all these happening, all of this is happening, the murders are happening. Turns out that Lori and Chad are constantly attending the LDS temple. So we're, we're gonna play a clip from FBI agent Nicole Hitaman. If I pronounce that right, Heideman, and she's just going to talk about, you know, this investigation that she performed of, of the temple visits between. And Lori and Chad together.

Temple Visits Linked to the Deaths

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [02:05:34] Were you asked specifically to look at dates that Chad and Lori visited the temple together?

Video Clip 4 [02:05:41] Yes.

Video Clip 4 [02:05:41] And were you also asked to specifically look at dates they visited the temple together prior to being married?

Video Clip 4 [02:05:48] I was.

Video Clip 4 [02:05:50] In looking at this chart, were there specific dates that you located where they had in fact attended a temple together?

Video Clip 4 [02:05:57] Yes.

Video Clip 4 [02:05:59] And looking at those, can you indicate the dates that they attended temples together?

Video Clip 4 [02:06:04] November 16th of 2018, they attended the Gilbert Temple together. On April 3rd, 2019, they attended the Idaho Falls Temple together. On April 27th, 2019, they attended the Houston Temple together. On September 7th, 2019, they attended the Idaho falls temple together. On September 17th, 2019, they attended the Rexburg Temple together. Although that one had a more significant time difference than previous and subsequent visits. On September 28, 2019, they attended the Rexburg Templeton together. And on October 29, 2019, they attended the Rexburg Temple together.

Video Clip 4 [02:06:49] And when you talk about that September 17th visit and the time difference, what are you referencing there?

Video Clip 4 [02:06:56] The temple records show when a member, I believe, scans a card and it tracks the date and time to, to the second and all the other, the previous and public post September 17th, they're all within a minute, two minutes and sometimes seconds of each other, which is why we're saying that they're attending together. September 17, 2019. There was a 25 minute time difference, so I just wanted to caveat that to make it clear.

Video Clip 4 [02:07:26] And it was a 25 minute difference from when between Chad or Lori scanning their card in.

Video Clip 4 [02:07:32] Correct.

Video Clip 4 [02:07:33] And the other visits, they scanned my much closer in time together within seconds

Video Clip 4 [02:07:38] to two minutes probably on average.

Video Clip 4 [02:07:42] And looking at those first three dates, was Charles still alive at that time?

Video Clip 4 [02:07:49] He was.

Video Clip 4 [02:07:50] And do you know when Charles was

Video Clip 4 [02:07:52] killed on July 11, 2019.

Video Clip 4 [02:07:55] And then looking at those next three dates in September, do you know if Tammy was still alive during that time?

Video Clip 4 [02:08:03] She was.

Video Clip 4 [02:08:05] And for that first visit on September 7th, do you know if Tylee was still alive?

Video Clip 4 [02:08:10] She was.

Video Clip 4 [02:08:11] And was JJ still alive?

Video Clip 4 [02:08:13] He was.

Video Clip 4 [02:08:14] And there's a note there indicating on September 8th or 9th, Tyler Ryan was killed. Do you know the last time Tyler Ryan was seen alive?

Video Clip 4 [02:08:24] Yes, she was last. Our last proof of life of Kylie was on September 8, 2019, based on photographs of her and Yellowstone found on one of Lori's icloud accounts.

Video Clip 4 [02:08:36] So is that the presumptive date that regarding when she was maybe killed?

Video Clip 4 [02:08:43] Correct. I don't know the exact date or time.

Video Clip 4 [02:08:48] And September 17, was JJ still alive at that time?

Video Clip 4 [02:08:53] He was.

Video Clip 4 [02:08:53] Do you know the last time JJ was seen alive?

Video Clip 4 [02:08:58] Well, we know that there is a

Video Clip 4 [02:08:59] photo photograph of JJ saved in one of the Lori one of Lori's icloud accounts the morning of September 22nd.

Video Clip 4 [02:09:09] And so when we have September 22nd to 23rd, J.J. valo killed, is that the presumptive date?

Video Clip 4 [02:09:16] Correct.

Video Clip 4 [02:09:18] And you would gather this information and then turn it over to other investigators, is that correct?

Guest 2 [02:09:23] Yes.

Guest 5 [02:09:25] Then there are. And then there is also the indication there of Tammy being killed on October 18th or 19th. Do you know when she was pronounced dead?

Guest 2 [02:09:36] October 19th, 2019.

Guest 5 [02:09:39] And there are two things there in yellow regarding some attempted shootings. Did you learn that information through your investigation?

Guest 2 [02:09:48] I did.

Guest 5 [02:09:49] And so we have the October 2nd Brandon Boudreau shooting that was learned through the investigation.

Guest 2 [02:09:54] It was.

Guest 5 [02:09:55] And the October 9th attempted shooting of Tammy D. Yes. And so while these events were occurring, there were temple visits in between, is that correct?

Guest 2 [02:10:09] Yeah, there appeared to be. Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:13] Yeah, many Mindy and I talked about this and we thought it's really interesting, like all of this is happening. You know, kids are disappearing, Tammy dies, Charles was shot, and these guys are attending the temple Together. Tammy's still alive. A lot of these visits. There's. She's still married to. To. She's still married to Chad. Yeah. What do you guys think?

Mindy Caldwell [02:10:44] Yeah, I, I think that those, Those are interesting to note. Two things. I wasn't sure that the church. I don't know if they've been upfront about tracking the scanner cards of the temple recommends, but.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:01] Oh, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:02] So, you know, if they, if they were. If they had to give up this evidence of all of them. But I think primarily it's striking that there is chaos and murder and deception and lying and some of the most horrific things that human beings can be doing. And all at all the same time, they're attempting that. They're attending the temple several times together in the midst of all of that. So I only know how to make sense of that.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:34] Well, to me, it just shows that they really believe that God is on their side. If this was all, you know, like a facade and they didn't really believe it, and Chad was just doing it to, you know, to try to justify the killings, but he really didn't believe it. Like, why are. How do you explain all this temple attendance and all this? You know, I don't know. It's just really interesting. John, do you have any thoughts?

John Dehlin [02:12:00] Yeah, I mean, so many, but. But I had the same thing as you. It's. It and Mindy, it's bizarre that they're attending the temple during all these conspiracies and murders and murder attempts and, and having an affair, a sexual affair, on the one hand. On the other hand, it's an absolute testimony that they sincerely believe that they had God and Jesus's approval to be doing all these things.

Guest 4 [02:12:26] Things.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] And so if they're sincerely doing what they think God and Jesus's will are, wills are, then the only thing you can really condemn is the, the idea that we can discern God's will through our emotions. Like, what else can you go to?

John Dehlin [02:12:49] Like, and that's why education and open discussion is important because, you know, otherwise anyone can do anything they want if they believe God and Jesus or Buddha or, you know, Allah are okay with it. And so that's why the Mormon church and religion and Christianity, it's not that any of us are anti religion or anti faith or anti Christian, anti Mormon. I don't think any of us on this panel would identify with any of those things. We're all for the right for people to believe and for the value of there being religious or spiritual beliefs. And there needs to be a Discussion. And it is absolutely fair game to talk about the complicity of religious and Mormon and Christian beliefs in all of this.

John Dehlin [02:13:42] Because it can't just be that religions and Christians, Christians and Mormons just get a pass in all of this. It's got to be on the table as part of the discussion.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:55] Right?

John Dehlin [02:13:56] That's what I think.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:57] Yeah. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:59] I want to thank you for that, John. I want to point out one other thing about this temple thing that was really interesting is this was an FBI someone with the FBI explaining how they discovered all of their church attendance, which they. Or the temple attendance, which they clearly got again from the LDS church. But it wasn't until cross exam that you understood the, the exact pattern they were trying to make. While the cross exam was going on with Jim Arabald, the, the FBI agent finally said, well, what we're pointing at is a pattern that right before each homicide, a temple visit occurs. So they're actually trying to show that not not only were they going to the temple, they were going right before they killed somebody.

Guest 6 [02:14:51] Oh my gosh.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:52] First temple, then killing. First temple, then killing. And I just want to point that out too.

John Dehlin [02:15:01] So they felt like they were maybe going to the temple, getting revelation or justification for the murders and that the temple attendance was.

Guest [02:15:08] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] Was for them to get to get instruction from the Lord about who to murder, Is that what you're saying? Maybe.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:14] Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

John Dehlin [02:15:17] Holy moly.

Mindy Caldwell [02:15:18] And we do know that the, I think the last recorded temple visit for Chad and Lori was a week two weeks after after Tammy died. So they did attend the temple even after.

Guest 6 [02:15:31] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:32] Oh, and then one other important note. A part of this evidence is Heideman explained that there were multiple times they each went to the temple. Lori went to the temple a lot more than these times. She was sharing this is every time that Chad and Laurie went to the temple together specifically. So Chad and Lori would go to the temple together. Then murder happens.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:00] And you have to remember that. I mean, I just don't understand. Like Rexburg is a small town. Like I, I guess women and mans, they, they gone on different places, so it doesn't matter. I'm just thinking like, how is Chad not afraid that someone from church is gonna see him with another woman at the temple? I, I, I don't know. But it's just real because for a lot of these visits, Tammy was still alive and yeah, just really, really bizarre. I just want to say to our audience, we have, we have 13, 1300 people watching. And that's amazing. We have a really good audience. If everyone can go to YouTube and subscribe to our channel, that really helps to, to promote the our episodes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:51] So please, please go and subscribe to the channel. Hit the notifications button so you are notified when there's a new episode coming out. And after you do that, go to Hidden True Crime and subscribe to there as well to get all the updates for the Lori Valday Bell case. Lauren is doing live lives during the breaks, is my understanding. Lauren, do you want to just talk about what you're doing? We're not done yet. We're still gonna play one more clip.

John Dehlin [02:17:19] But and also I, I have a couple more points I want to make just about this thing too. But whatever order you want.

Guest 8 [02:17:25] Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:26] Yeah, go. Let's go, Lauren. And then, and we'll have John.

Guest 4 [02:17:29] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:30] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:17:30] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:30] I'm, I'm attending trial each day in, in the courtroom. I'm live tweeting during the, during the whole trial because there are no cameras allowed in there. And it's the least, you know, all of us in there can do for, for record purposes. So I'm tweeting at hidden@twitter.com hidden true crime during lunch, I go on a quick lunch live is what we call them on YouTube, YouTube.com crime and I share what I'm hearing, what I'm feeling, what's going on. And then in the evening, I'll be on News News Nation to talk about the last of, of the day, the day as a whole. And then we're live, not live streaming.

Lauren Matthias [02:18:15] We are streaming the audio with a live chat as soon as court ends. So as soon as court ends, the court does sound, send down the audio through FOIA requests. If you pay for the audio, we're doing that and then we're sharing the audio on YouTube.com hidden true crime about it comes out about an hour after court concludes for the day, adjourns for the day.

Gerardo Sumano [02:18:37] Yeah. Thanks, Lauren. Yeah. So please go and subscribe to Hidden True Crime. Subscribe to Mormon stories. John is going to say something too.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] Yeah, the only other thing I just wanted to say is, you know, we talked earlier in this episode about the conservative fundamentalist wing of Mormonism. And, you know, taking part is political partisanship out for a second. It's just objectively true that that fundamentalist or ultra orthodox wing of Mormonism tends to also strongly affiliate with kind of Donald Trump maga, ultra conservative Mormonism. Those people generally tend to be really suspicious of the government and of power.

John Dehlin [02:19:26] And so the fact that the Mormon Church apparently is cooperating. Well, number one is tracking when people attend the temple by name, what time they enter, what time they leave, who they're attending with, and sharing that with the government. I'm guessing that's, that's some evidence that, that, that more conservative Mormons are politically conservative Mormons aren't super excited to hear kind of that whole, you know, Big Brother is out to get you kind of idea, conspiracy theory stuff. I have one other thought, but. But Lauren and Mindy, does that make sense to you, what I'm saying there?

Mindy Caldwell [02:20:09] Sure, yeah. You make a valid point.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] Okay, very much so, yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:14] That's, that's what I see too.

John Dehlin [02:20:16] Yeah. In their minds, I think they're going to be some Mormons that are like. Well, I mean, that whole wing is disposed to the belief that the modern Mormon Church has fallen into apostasy and has become a fulfillment of the warnings in the Book of Mormon about in the last days, even the elect shall be deceived, and that there might be a second apostasy of the church and there needs to be like another restoration with the one mighty and strong coming along to put a. All things right. So I just want to. I just want to note that there is that disposition of this ultra orthodox wing to hold the corporate modern Mormon Church in suspicion, if not to believe it's gone into apostasy.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] And that in accordance with that, would be sort of viewing the Mormon Church like no better than, if not worse than, the federal government, which they also don't super love, in my understanding. The only other thing I'll say is that again, we have to just call out the fact that most Mormons believe that not only do these temple recommends that are given by bishops imply some sort of worthiness on the part of the members. You know, if you get a temple recommend to enter the temple, it means you're worthy. No unclean thing can enter the temple. If Chad and Laurie are not only actively in an adulterous affair, but they're also conspiring to murder, what does that mean for the fact that they were granted temple recommends?

John Dehlin [02:21:51] Do the recommends mean anything at that point? Or is it just a dumb, superficial gatekeeping that really has no meaning? But then also there's just this Mormon belief of discernment that Mormon leaders have some sense of discernment that God can inspire a bishop to say you're worthy and you're not, if God can't inspire. And it's not just bishops, but stake presidents as well, if God can't Tell a bishop or a stake president that. Don't give Chad Daybell a temple recommend. Don't give Lori Valo a temple recommend because they're about to go commit a bunch of murders and they're about to get an adulterous affair.

John Dehlin [02:22:36] If bishops and stake presidents aren't able to have that sort of communication with God, how powerful is God and. Or is there any discernment at all at this point? It just calls into a lot of questions about Mormon beliefs. Am I stretching it there, guys, or do you think that there's something to those questions?

Lauren Matthias [02:22:59] No, I. I think that there's something to that. I don't. Well, I can't answer your questions. I'll let Mindy and Gerardo do that. But as far as what I'm feeling when it comes to a temple recommends, and as someone, as. As someone, I am an LDS member who's never really liked the temple, and I'm feeling pretty validated right now. And I'm like, and this is why I don't really want to go spend my day with Chad and Lori Daybell, nor Dilemma. So, anyway. But, yeah, Gerardo and Mindy can answer your other questions. That's what's on my mind.

Mindy Caldwell [02:23:34] I think you bring up good points, John, about discernment worthiness. I think it's. I think it's a little frightening to think that people like Chad and Lori were attending the temple regularly with other sincere, lovely church members who would never consider murdering a child or a spouse. It's unsettling, to say the least. And I. I wonder what kind of feelings it may be causing people who. Who have a stronger testimony of discernment and worthiness. I think it just. You can't help but think about that.

Tammy's Family Reacts in Court

Lauren Matthias [02:24:12] So, yeah, let's not forget that Brian David Mitchell also was a temple worker. That was the man who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart.

John Dehlin [02:24:20] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:22] Wow. No, I think you bring up really good points, John, and I agree. I agree. This. This. I. I think we've talked about it a lot of Mormon stories. This idea and teaching about the power of discernment is so fraud, and it has to change. You know, I think. I think one. I remember one episode, John, where you were talking about maybe, you know, we've moved on past all this kind of magical thinking on discernment. And then I. I pulled out the. The Handbook of Instructions, and I showed you how in the Handbook of Instructions, still today, you know, is teaching bishops to use the power of discernment to know if members are being truthful or what their needs Might be.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:05] It's just. Yeah, that that teaching has to be gotten away with. It's just, it's, it can be really dangerous. I, I wanna, I want to point out that someone. Let's see, here it is. CA gave us a Super Chat.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:26] Thank you so much CA for your super chat. Uh, you can uh, give US donations through YouTube through Super Chat or go to our website and click Don Donate and sign up for donations there. Thanks superstar. 6626 for the, for the super sticker. Those donations really help. You know it takes a lot, it takes a long time to prepare these episodes, these clips. You know, looking through like hours and hours of, of trial and trying to find, you know, the right clips to play. And, and you know we, this donations really help to pay, to pay me to pay John to pay our studio equipment.

Gerardo Sumano [02:26:04] So please just, your contributions are greatly appreciated. And just before we play the final clip, we do want to mention that Tammy's sister testified at the trial. And I would like Mindy just to talk about what were the things that tam. That Tammy's sister said that were the most impactful to you and maybe we can discuss them a little bit.

Mindy Caldwell [02:26:32] Yeah, I will just mention what I heard. Lauren can maybe speak to what she saw, but Tammy's sister, Tammy has one sister and three brothers. Her sister's name is Samantha Gwilliam and she came to testify and it was tender. You know, they, they displayed a picture of, of Tammy and, and she got emotional as she described. But that was her sister, sister. And basically she just testified to the changes that she saw over the past few years before Tammy died. Particularly in Chad. Not so much in Tammy, but Chad, who was previously warmer with she and her husband began to kind of pull away and not, not be as interactive.

Mindy Caldwell [02:27:16] She testified that she had heard about Chad's visions and that he would write these books and go on book tours. I thought it was great when she pointed out the attorney asked her if she, if Tammy would attend these conferences. And she's like, well, Tammy was home working and taking care of the kids while Chad was off trying to promote and sell his books. And, and then it was, it was very poignant when she talked about how betrayed and hurt she felt when she, she learned a month after Tammy had died that Chad had gotten remarried. And then later she found that it was only two weeks after chat after Tammy died that Chad remarried Lori.

Mindy Caldwell [02:28:00] She thought that the death was. Seemed suspicious because she had just seen Tammy two weeks previously. Tammy had gone down to Utah to springville to visit herself sister unexpectedly on Chad's encouragement. And she said that Tammy seemed fine. And then Chad reaches out to her and tells her that Tammy has died. And it was very surprising for Samantha and for Tammy's family.

Mindy Caldwell [02:28:27] And then when she confronted Chad about the new marriage, Chad lied and said that his new wife's name was Lori Ryan and that she, her husband had recently died of a heart attack back and which is all lies. And she said I did what any good sister would do. And I googled this new wife and I find these articles that come up with, associated with Charles Valo in Arizona getting killed in his home by his brother in law. And she noticed a comment that jj or she noticed a comment from Kay Woodcock about I could take care of jj. And so, so this sister is probably like who are all these people and what are they talking about?

Mindy Caldwell [02:29:08] And then she asked Chad about children and Chad said that there were no children and that he and Laurie were planning to live as empty nesters. And so it was just oh so tender to see just the pain that, that Chad and Lori's actions have inflicted on these lovely family members who cared about, about their sister.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:34] Oh, definitely, definitely. Yeah. And how, yeah, extended family members, how they're hurting because of this, all of this events and horrible things that they've done. Yeah. Lauren, do you have anything to comment on that or, or you think Mindy covered it?

Lauren Matthias [02:29:52] I think my Mindy did a great job. It was very sad and it was good to hear from, from Tammy's family. I think that Tammy is an not, not a forgotten victim, but that we, of course it makes sense that we focus so much on the children in this case and their innocence so we don't talk about Tammy as much. And a Friday in court, the last day of court was a very poignant day when it came to Tammy and the loss that so much, so many suffered because of this, this homicide. And you know, when it came to Tammy, I think often and I actually shared a tribute to Tammy dabel on my YouTube channel with my own personal story, but I think it's a great example of that.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:45] Sounds about great example. It's, it's an important example. It shouldn't be a great example because it shouldn't have happened, but it's an important example of emotional abuse in religious marriages. And I'm not just talking lds, I'm talking religious marriages where one of the spouses can really dominate another spouse through spiritual abuse and emotional abuse. And there's no doubt in my mind that Tammy was an abused woman for years who doubted herself, who got married young.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:15] And probably there were many warning signs. And it breaks my heart. I think she died a literal martyr, you know, sacrificing everything. In the end, she was the breadwinner. She, she was raising the children, she was running the publishing company while her husband was, you know, writing books and having an affair. And in the end, she sacrificed her life through staying committed and dedicated to her eternal spouse. And I think that it's important to recognize Tammy as a domestic violence victim and, and how this happens over and over and over again.

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:54] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, we've coming to the conclusion of the episode, but don't go yet because we're. We have one more clip which I think is one of the most common compelling clips or calls or evidence overall that has been shown during the trial, in my opinion. I think Mindy and Lauren will, will agree that this, this evidence that was brought forth was really shocking to some, validating to others. And this is a call because between Lori's sister Summer and Lori while she's in jail. And I think Summer was able to tell her a lot of the things that a lot of us wish we could tell Lori. And, you know, listening to her responses and, and all that, we're not gonna play it all, but we're gonna play a good chunk of it and then we going to comment on it. So.

John Dehlin [02:33:00] And Haro, while you're, while you're queuing that up, I'm just going to thank a few super chats that just came in, the Scotty's mom experience. O' Brien gave us a donation. Thank you so much for that. LNXP. And also superstar6626, thanks so much for everyone who donates to make this possible. Okay, her artist, take it back over.

Tylee's Father Speaks and Family Grief

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:25] All right, so, okay. And again, this is from East Idaho News. They made the audio a little bit better. Just credit to them. They're covering this case as well. So. Yeah, let's, let's go ahead and listen to it.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [02:33:42] I deserve more than that. I've been there for you like a rock. And I get. I went on TV and defended you. I've done any. Everything to defend you. And I still would right now if you would tell me the truth.

Video Clip 5 [02:33:58] I would love to. Well, then love to. You didn't want to in October, November, December, January or February when you weren't in jail. Why didn't you tell us then? What? You didn't call me when Alex died, which now I'm glad he's gone. If he was a part of this. But you didn't call to tell me Alex died or that your kids are gone. Nothing.

Video Clip 5 [02:34:30] You don't think that's going to cause pain throughout our entire family? Well. You don't think I'm in pain? No, I don't. I think you were dancing on the beach, having a great time, getting married. And you took pictures to prove it. Your kids don't deserve a burial. That you need to get wedding pictures.

Video Clip 5 [02:34:56] You don't think that's upsetting? Nobody knows. I'm sorry, honey. Then nobody knows except for you and the Lord. Yeah. Ask him. I have. And guess what? I don't have one scripture that says it's okay for children to be thrown away like garbage in the ground.

Video Clip 5 [02:35:24] And that's okay. There is nothing in the scriptures that is godly about hurting a child. Nothing. And they deserve a proper burial with family that loves them at the least. I can't support that. That's hurtful to everyone. That's the most selfish, incredibly selfish thing I can think of. I can't think of anything worse.

Video Clip 5 [02:35:56] I don't understand. I don't understand. This is not my Lola. I'm not in love. I've never even seen you be upset with your kids. I went to bat for you and said that to everyone. How can you just go on without them?

Guest 7 [02:36:18] Without any upsetness and without telling us anything? And they expect us to understand in the world? Nobody in the world knows what I've been through. And I don't expect you to. All you've seen is what's on tv. No, that's not what he says. And all the influences of all people around.

Guest 7 [02:36:38] Okay, so now I'm deceived. Everyone in the world is deceived except for you. No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm not saying that. I'm saying nobody's seen me on the floor cry. Nobody knows what I've been through with my children that I love more than anything.

Guest 7 [02:37:00] Lori, mine. You are dancing on a beach with a smile on your face. Taking wedding photos. Yeah. Months later. You don't need to go on with life trying to be happy. Trying to find some kind of happiness. Does she think I want to be alone? Do you think that your mother and your sister and your son don't deserve to know that the children are gone?

Guest 7 [02:37:36] Why wouldn't you call and tell us that? Why were we cut off? You saying you want to go on and be happy? You're just gonna be happy without your family and Your life until you're stuck in jail. And I'm the only one stupid enough to be your friend when I've been your best supporter. Lori, I've loved you my whole life. I still do. I can't bear to think of anything bad about you.

Guest 7 [02:38:02] It hurts me. I don't want to see you in jail. I don't want you to be there. I don't want people to misunderstand. If you would tell me the truth, I would stand up for you for the rest of time. You know that I would. I knew you would. But there is nothing okay about this. Nothing.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:21] I knew.

Guest 7 [02:38:24] If you think it's okay, Paul, you have greatly been deceived. If you think about this is okay. Nothing about this is okay. We have all read the scriptures. I know you told me about a lot of your spiritual experiences. You know I'm trying to support you in all of them. But I am telling you because I love you with all my heart.

Guest 7 [02:38:52] Please consider that Chad has lied and been deceived and that you have been deceived and that this is not what you think it is. There is nothing okay about killing children. Nothing. And even if you didn't kill them and dad didn't kill them and Alex didn't kill him, you threw them away like garbage in the ground.

Guest 7 [02:39:16] Ty's balls are burned. I can't help you going in and threw her in a pet cemetery. You know that so degree. How could you let them do that? I don't want to be still. It's so painful. I can't even tell you.

Guest 7 [02:39:39] I don't know what husband's saying. But please consider that you have been deceived. That is not Christlike. There's nothing good in that. There's nothing good in that. That's not a test. For you. Are innocent. And they were loved and they didn't deserve to be treated that way.

Guest 7 [02:40:04] And who loved them their whole life and took care of them their whole life. So why would you not be buried that way? I didn't. Well, then come up with an explanation publicly.

Gerardo Sumano [02:40:23] Well, that was really hard to hear. And also, like I said, a little validating, you know, to have someone said those say those things to Lori. But then again how she doubles down and likely. You know, John, when you talk about when believing people sometimes are confronted with evidence, they double down on their beliefs. Who knows? That could be something that is happening to Lori. And thinking that this is a trial and being in jail is like Joseph Smith being in liberty.

Guest 6 [02:41:03] In.

Gerardo Sumano [02:41:04] In jail. Who knows? But I Just want to hear what. What you guys think. Mindy, do you wanna. Do you wanna go first?

Mindy Caldwell [02:41:16] Sure, I'll go. Oh, it's just so heart wrenching hearing that call. I think Summer screaming at Lori and asking these questions. I just felt like she was the voice of thousands or millions of people who have followed this case, who have wanted to scream at Lori and just ask her, why. Why did you do this? You know, one thing we haven't talked about on the podcast today, but that was very focal in the trial proceedings this week, was Tyler and. And her remains and how, you know, they're collecting globs of flesh and bone and. And to try to assess what happened to her. And it's just so horrific. And. And so you could feel that pain. In Summer's call, she says at one point, you know, how Tyler was found, how degrading that was, and how those kids were innocent. And I was. I was proud of Summer for bringing

Guest 2 [02:42:27] up

Mindy Caldwell [02:42:30] the option to Lori to consider that she has been deceived. You know, this is huge, huge example of, like, sunk cost for Lori. You know, they've done all of these terrible things. I'm sure that would be very painful for her to adjust her mind frame to accept that perhaps she had been deceived and lied to in allowing this to happen. And one other critical thing about that call that I think will probably influence the jury is that when she said, you were dancing on a beach in Hawaii and Lori said months later, which was. It's technically weeks.

Mindy Caldwell [02:43:11] It was. I think it was. You know, they were married in November at the beginning. Beginning of November. And Tylee and JJ were both. Were both killed in September. So it wasn't months, months and months later. But I think the point is she's admitting that she knew at that point that the kids were gone, whether or not, we don't know how much involvement she had. But I think that was a critical admission by Lori that I think will likely influence the jury.

Guest 3 [02:43:44] Yeah. Wow.

Gerardo Sumano [02:43:46] Yeah. Yeah, totally. Lauren, what are your. What are you feeling? What are your thoughts?

Lauren Matthias [02:43:55] Yeah, I was equally proud of Summer and heartbroken for her because I don't think she was also, during this phone call, I don't think she was trying to do anything, you know, that would make people proud. I think she was in the moment and just being honest with her sister, trying to understand, you know, what in the hell her sister was thinking and doing. I know that Summer was very close to Tyler. They had a very close relationship.

Guest 2 [02:44:20] And.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:21] And interestingly enough, Tyler would also always Defend her mother and protect her mother. They, they both would. Summer and Ty. I can't imagine, you know, what Summer has felt. I, as far as what Lori was thinking in that call, how we see her.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:41] Yeah, sort of disassociating. I agree with everyone. That said, I, I think she's standing firm in these beliefs because if she doesn't, then she has to face that she's simply a criminal, a child murderer who will spend the rest of her life behind bars. And she's nothing special. In fact, she's the opposite of special.

Lauren Matthias [02:45:04] And I think that from what I've heard from sources, she's still believing. I don't know what her tears are. In court, she cried during this phone call. Lori Dabel did. She looked at Summer. You know, I don't know how long it's been since she'd seen Summer. She looked, she looked happy to see Summer in the stand. I don't, you know, I don't know what Summer was doing. I couldn't see Summer's face, but I could see Lori look at her sister and, and then she was crying during this phone call. I don't know what she's doing. From what I hear, she's holding on to these beliefs.

Lauren Matthias [02:45:35] And I think you guys might be right, that if she is not this special person, this goddess who allowed her children to be killed in the name of Jesus Christ, then she's a child killing murderer and one of the most hated woman in the, in the nation right now or in the world right now. And I think that she could never face that.

Guest 6 [02:46:02] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:46:04] Yeah, totally, John.

John Dehlin [02:46:08] Well, I echo everything said so far. Mindy, you bringing up the sunk cost fallacy is really important. That's just the idea that the more you've invested, the more time and the more money you've invested in something, the less likely you are to be willing to consider the fact that you've done something wrong. I think that's a really important thing to bring up, Mindy, so thank you for bringing, bringing that up.

John Dehlin [02:46:34] So many people have mentioned how calloused and heartless Lori comes across. I'm touched by how heart wrenching it is, you know, with, with Summer and how emotionally connected Summer is as a contrast to Laurie. And I also rejoice in her anger. I think within Mormonism, we're taught that the spirit of contention is evil, that the spirit of contention is of the devil. And so we're taught that anger is a bad emotion, that you shouldn't experience it.

John Dehlin [02:47:15] And I think a mental, excuse me, a Mental health professional is going to say that's wrong. Anger is. We're given the emotion of anger for a reason. And anger has an important place to play in our emotional profiles. And anger is often healthy. And I think we're all feeling this cathartic gratitude that we can. That someone's expressing anger towards Laurie and that there are in some ways almost channeling the anger that so many of us feel, which is healthy.

John Dehlin [02:47:53] I just want to say that. And then, you know, trying to kind of understand. Well, I. I guess, you know, some are saying, why wouldn't she tell family when Lori knew that her kids were gone? Why didn't she tell family? I also think it's fair to say why didn't she tell the police that she knew that her kids were gone or dead or missing or whatever? That seems. And, you know, that seems very, very. That should be very problematic for the defense. If I know anything. I don't know anything about law, but that just seems problematic to me because she's kind of admitting that she knew the kids were gone, but she didn't tell the police.

John Dehlin [02:48:39] And why. And then I guess I just want to say two final things. One is, I. I don't mean to keep bringing it back to religion, but that's kind of a role I'm playing here, not as a hater of religion, but as one who wants to see religion become more healthy.

John Dehlin [02:48:57] Summer begins by saying she doesn't know any scripture that would make it okay for a child to be murdered. Again, I'm gonna have to say that's not my understanding of Christian and Jewish and Mormon scripture. But because you have an Old Testament God that insists on the murder of children, both in terms of Noah's flood and also just how he God, the God of the Old Testament, interacted with the Israelites.

John Dehlin [02:49:25] The Old Testament God insisted that either murdered children himself or insisted that children be murdered for righteous causes in the Old Testament. And if anybody in the comments right now who's a believer in Christianity, the Bible, or Judaism wants to argue with me about that, I want to hear it. But I don't know how to read the Old Testament without believing that God sometimes is actually not only okay with the murder of children, but sometimes he commands it and. Or does it himself.

John Dehlin [02:49:59] So that's something that I think needs to be corrected, is if we want to say that God's not okay with the murder of children, which is kind of what Jesus says, that if anybody harms a child, it's better that a millstone be tied around their neck and that they be dragged down to the bottom of the sea, that's fine. But Jesus himself was a Jew and believed in the Old Testament, so there needs to be some reckoning there and some clarification about what God actually is and isn't capable of and, or condoning and, or responsible for for. And then the only other final thing I'll say is that, you know, the, the fact that, that, that Lori really, really sincerely believed at the end of the day that that God and Jesus were okay with the murder of these kids should probably cause us all to, to reflect on our beliefs.

John Dehlin [02:51:00] Because if anything I've learned over the past 20 years of covering Mormonism and religion in general, it's that whether it's the backfire effect that we've talked about or the sunk cost fallacy or confirmation bias belief, if there's anything in the world that's super resilient, it's it's beliefs and it's religious beliefs, it's political beliefs, it's, it's all sorts of beliefs. And I think what we all should take from what we just heard is that we all should become really humble and reflective about our beliefs and realize that we all could and likely are wrong.

John Dehlin [02:51:42] And you know, what I call this is epistemic humility. That regardless of what supernatural beliefs you have or political beliefs or whatever, we all should just back off any level of certainty or conviction about our supernatural or religious or political beliefs and just be continually open to the reality that we not only could be wrong, but we probably are wrong.

Guest 6 [02:52:11] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:14] Beautiful. That was, that was so great, John. And yeah, I mean this case has

Guest 8 [02:52:22] been

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:25] healing for a lot of people and also really hard because we're hearing a lot of stuff that is hard to hear that are hopefully making people think about their beliefs, how they interact with them. And maybe, you know, like you said, John, I think it's important if, if we take anything out of it should be that we should all be constantly thinking about that we, we could be wrong, you know, on our beliefs. And like you said, it could be religious, political, doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [02:53:09] And somebody just said like one of our commenters just wrote, I disagree with the host there. Sorry, this is Anonymous saying, I disagree with the host there. Sorry. I want to hear what someone disagrees with me about because I'm not saying religion is evil or bad. I'm not saying Mormonism is evil or bad or Christianity or Judaism. I am not anti beliefs. I'm pro humility and I'm pro evidence and I'M pro skepticism, but that doesn't mean I'm anti religion or anti beliefs. I. I think you can be both.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:44] I love what you said. I was, I was sitting over here saying, can I, you know, can I get an amen? I think if this. Studying this case for three years has taught me something is to look at my beliefs and to question my beliefs and to. Yeah. To be a skeptic and to question authority and to question any and all magical thinking. I. I agree with you. And yeah, you never said to stop believing. You said to question your beliefs, to practice humility. And I couldn't agree more.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:22] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:23] Thanks, Lauren. Thanks, John. Thank you, Mindy. Thanks, everyone for joining this. This live stream. This was a great panel. I think. I think we covered really good basis on. On what happened in this last couple weeks. I thank everyone who joined us again. Please subscribe to our channel. Subscribe to Hidden Through Crime and support us support this work. This is. This is. I think this has been great. And thanks, everybody. We're gonna be here again. If the interest keeps up like it has been, we're gonna cover another week of Lori Valo Debel's case. And yeah, thanks everybody for coming. And John, John, do you want to say.

John Dehlin [02:55:12] Can I just tell.

Guest 3 [02:55:13] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:55:14] Can I just tell Mindy, Lauren, and Gerardo that you're three of my favorite people on the planet? And I'm. I'm honored. I'm truly touched and grateful that you would honor Mormon Stories with your. Your insight and analysis and time and perspective. And I adore you all and just. Am just proud to be associated with you in any way.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:37] Thank you, John. Likewise, all of you. Thank you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:55:40] Thank you, everyone.

John Dehlin [02:55:42] And Gerardo, this wouldn't be happening without you. So, Gerardo, thank you for leading this up.

Gerardo Sumano [02:55:48] Yeah, thanks, John. Thank you. And again, thanks, everyone. We'll see you again on another episode of More Mysteries podcast. Goodbye, everybody.

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