Growing Up Faithful in the LDS Church

Carolyn Ball [00:00:00] Well, I was raised in the church, was born a member to the church. I absolutely loved going to church as a family. I have very fond memories of being together as a family, activities that we did together. Well, I remember being baptized at 8 and I remember very strongly the feelings that I felt, how I felt the church. I wanted to be a member of the church. And I still remember fasting. I wanted to fast for 24 hours when I was 8. So I did. I fasted. And I remember about passed out in sacrament meeting. But to me it was very important that I fasted before they confirmed me with the Holy Ghost.

Carolyn Ball [00:00:42] I loved young women's. I loved girls camp. I loved the sports that we played. There were 15 girls that were in my beehive class. So we had quite a group that all went together and graduated together. And they're still good friends. I don't really stay in touch with them, but whenever I see them, I always have very fond memories of them. I also remember very strongly at the age I read the prophets books when I was very young. By the time I was 14, I had read most of the autobiographies of the prophets.

Carolyn Ball [00:01:20] I was reading Ezra Taft Benson's biography. And that was when I felt a very strong feeling come over me that I would serve a mission. And I wrote it in my journal. I wrote my journal very faithfully. And I can look back on it and have the day exactly when I determined that I would be a missionary. And that was when I was 14.

Carolyn Ball [00:01:43] And I did serve a mission and I wanted to, I knew I would. I always served, of course, in our young women's callings and Beehive Miami Laurel. I was always in one of the presidencies in young women. So I always loved that. I think that was a basis and cornerstone for the leadership positions that came later in life at byu. I was the Relief Society president, visiting teaching coordinator, of course, a visiting teacher, which I always felt was a very important calling.

Carolyn Ball [00:02:18] Oh, I was the choir director, which didn't last long, but yeah, I had a lot of callings. I think I loved my time at BYU and the wards that we were in. I was the young women's leader after college when I was very active in the church. I worked for the church education system. I worked for youth and family programs and that was especially for Youth, Girls Academy, Boys World of Adventure.

Carolyn Ball [00:02:54] And then I did that for about eight years. I also taught part time as an adjunct professor teaching American Sign Language at byu. Yeah, and that was after I served my mission. I also taught at the mtc, I taught missionaries that were training to become American Sign Language missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] So your life was pretty tightly wound with the church?

Carolyn Ball [00:03:22] Definitely. Everything. It was everything. I loved the church. No one would choose to be gay. You don't choose it. And in fact, I tried very hard not to be gay. As I look back on it, I don't know if. I mean, I was trying very hard to be an active, faithful member of the church. I wanted to be married, I wanted to have a family, I wanted to have children. I wanted to be a faithful member of the church. And it just didn't feel right. It didn't. It just wasn't a comfort. I could see other couples around me or I see my own parents. I didn't feel the love or the affection that I just didn't feel that in my life. And I wanted. I felt much more companionship with women than I did with men. I felt a lot stronger bond physically and sexually with women.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Emotionally?

Carolyn Ball [00:04:24] Yeah, emotionally, big time. I had a yes emotionally. So I don't think I can blame that on anything except that that's who I was or who I am. I don't think I could blame that on anything. I think as I look back, I can see that it was always there. But at the time it was just something I struggled with.

Carolyn Ball [00:04:47] I didn't know what was wrong with me. I always thought there was something wrong with me and it was an incredible self esteem. I think it really hurt me as a woman, self esteem wise. I tried desperately to be perfectionist because I felt like something was always wrong with me.

Carolyn Ball [00:05:09] And I think it led to a lot of bad feelings about myself physically. I always felt ugly. I always felt that I would not ever be attractive to any decent man. But I don't know, I just. Those were the feelings. I tried very hard not to be gay. I mean, I got married twice to two different men, married in the temple twice and they both didn't work out.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] What can you talk about what it's like to be gay but to try and be intimate with a member of the opposite sex? Not graphically, but just the companionship. And is that

Carolyn Ball [00:05:54] the only thing that I can compare it to is think of the worst thing that you don't like doing. Maybe you don't like squash and forcing yourself to eat it. And then when you eat it, try not to puke. And then after you puke, try to brush your teeth, but it doesn't quite go away. It's that awful aftertaste that just stays and then it eats at you. That's kind of the. That's how I think of it and how it made me feel.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Not fun?

Carolyn Ball [00:06:34] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] What's it like for. What do you. Can you speak on behalf of your former spouses? What's it like to be married to someone who isn't necessarily attracted to you?

Carolyn Ball [00:06:50] You know, I've thought about that. I've thought about that a lot. I have never spoken with the second man that I married ever again. And I'm sure that it's devastating to him. I don't know that he knows. I never talked to him about it. The first man I married. I have spoken with him a few times, but we've come to terms with it. And he also was gay. I didn't know this, but he had fought his gay feelings before he married me. And he thought marrying me would help him to not be gay. I went to therapy. I went to a therapist of lds, not LDS Social Services. I'm not saying they're not good, but I went to a therapist. I went to the bishop. I spoke freely to the bishop about my feelings. I talked to my mission president about it.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] What did you want at the time when you.

Carolyn Ball [00:07:52] I didn't want to have those feelings. I wanted to be. I didn't want to have those feelings. I just wanted to be an active member. I wanted the church and the doctrine and my family and my life. I felt like it was the most important thing. And so that's what I wanted. I just wanted to stay a member of the church and follow the gospel's teachings.

Navigating Faith, Marriage, and a Church Court

John Dehlin [00:08:16] So did you try scripture reading? Did you try fasting? Did you try prayer?

Carolyn Ball [00:08:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] What were your prayers like?

Carolyn Ball [00:08:23] I did a lot of crying.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] What would you say to Heavenly Father

Carolyn Ball [00:08:27] cried, Take it away, take it away. You know, I want to be normal. That's what I felt.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] And did you ever have times where you thought, oh, maybe it's working? Maybe?

Carolyn Ball [00:08:41] Yes, there were times that I thought that it helped. It always helped me to be involved in every aspect of the church. I mean, if you're so busy helping others, then you never have to think about yourself. And I think that's where I went was, you know, let me be the one that helps everybody do everything. So that's what I tried to do.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] And why not just do that for the rest of your life? I mean, what, what, What? Broke?

Carolyn Ball [00:09:10] I felt like I. Well, number one, I did. Emotionally, I broke. And it's the only time in my life that I ever felt that I did not care if I died. And it was on my honeymoon. And I escaped and drove off in the mountains in Denver to get to. Away from the situation where I was at hand. And I remember just going as fast as I could, and I did not care if I went over the edge. That's why I knew something had to change because I didn't want to die.

Carolyn Ball [00:09:47] And there was a lot to live for. But that's why I had to start thinking. I don't think members of the church understand how painful it is to be a gay or lesbian member of the church. And one situation in particular that I remember was just recently. Well, a few years ago, after I had already been excommunicated from the church, I wanted to go to church with my mom because I loved sitting in church with my mom.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] You still love church?

Carolyn Ball [00:10:22] Yeah, I did. I don't now, but. You did after this incident.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Oh, okay.

Carolyn Ball [00:10:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:27] But after being excommunicated, you still loved going to church?

Carolyn Ball [00:10:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] You missed it.

Carolyn Ball [00:10:30] Yes, missed it. I missed the lifestyle. I missed being able to serve others. I missed the community. I missed it. And. But when mom and I were in church, it was during the time when President Bush was trying to get the Constitution amendment that gay marriage would be banned. And for some reason, we were sitting in Sunday school together, and they brought. Someone brought it up in Sunday school, and they started talking very derogatory about gay and lesbian people and how terrible they were and how they were the downfall of the world and how evil gay people were. And I.

Carolyn Ball [00:11:17] I remember sitting there and thinking, all my life I believed that. However, I know I'm not that type of person, so how could that be true? And my mom just looked at me even before I did anything. And mom said, let's go.

Carolyn Ball [00:11:34] Let's get up and let's leave. And so we did. And then after we left Sunday school, I just broke down sobbing. And I just can't go back again because people say things like that, and it's very painful because I'm not that type of person. And I know people will say, well, the church isn't the people. The church is the doctrine and the gospel. However, what people say and how they treat you.

Carolyn Ball [00:12:04] No one would even sit by me in church. I was not allowed to go to my ward in Fulton, Missouri. There was a deaf congregation that was there that didn't have an interpreter. They would not allow me to sit in front in sacrament meeting to interpret because that would mean that they were showing that a gay person had some form of leadership in the church. And that was absolutely forbidden.

Carolyn Ball [00:12:34] So they Would not let me interpret. So that meant that deaf people were sitting there with absolutely no interpretation, sitting there, not knowing what was going on. And I wanted to serve. I wanted to help in any way I could. And they said that I wouldn't interpret the message, but in all reality, I believed the message. I felt the spirit, and I knew the spirit. And besides that, I have a code of ethics as a translator that I'll follow the content and spirit of the message. So I never did on understand that.

Carolyn Ball [00:13:06] But they had the missionaries come to my house when I was disfellowshipped. They kept coming, trying to get me to become active. And I had home teachers and I had visiting teachers. And they always came over, always said, what can we do for you? Whatever. They wouldn't know how to talk to me. But I always enjoyed them coming. And then the minute I was excommunicated, it was as if I died. And that's how I felt.

Carolyn Ball [00:13:34] I died. And I've had to mourn the church as if it was something that died to me. I did not go to the bishop personally to confess my sins. The person that I had been involved with decided that they needed to go and talk to the bishop. And it was that week. I didn't even know that that person had gone and talked to the bishop. I got a letter in the mail that week that said, you will come to your. I can't remember.

John Dehlin [00:14:15] Church court.

Carolyn Ball [00:14:16] Church court. You'll come to the court of love. Yeah, court of love. And I was just devastated. I thought, oh, my gosh, what is this? I didn't know what to do. I couldn't talk to my family because they didn't know. So they set up the appointments that she and I were right after each other. So she went first, and then I went in second. So when I went in, she was coming out.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] Kind of like a prisoner's dilemma where neither of you knew what the other said, right?

Carolyn Ball [00:14:47] And so I went in, and there was a room full of men. There was about seven or eight of the men in the ward. The interesting thing about it was that it was the branch. It was a deaf branch, and that was in Provo, so they were all deaf. And we were all signing. And I remember walking in and sitting there in front of all these men with no one, not one person by my side. There wasn't another female. There wasn't any support. And these men were asking me questions. For example, where did you have sex?

Carolyn Ball [00:15:28] Did you do it with your clothes on or off? Did you. What did you Think about right before you had sex, questions like that. And the only thing that I was proud of myself during that court was when the one man asked me that question. I looked at him and I said, well, right before you have sex with your wife, what do you think about?

Carolyn Ball [00:15:52] And then they said, oh, oh, okay. So it's the same. So it was more of a. I think it was curiosity for those men to learn about how women have sex together.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] How did it feel?

Carolyn Ball [00:16:07] It was awful.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] Why?

Carolyn Ball [00:16:11] I'd never had anyone talk to me as a woman, especially sexually, ask me questions like that. What were your positions? What did you. What were you wearing? I felt like I was. I mean, I don't. I never drank. I never smoked. I never looked at pornography or anything. But when I left that church court, I felt like I was asleep. Slut.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Not a good experience.

Carolyn Ball [00:16:42] No, it was awful. And then after I left, the person that had also been in the church court, she waited for me. And so we left together. We had driven together, and we went home together. And we decided that that was it. We wanted to be active in the church. And so we tried very hard.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] He tried again.

Carolyn Ball [00:17:09] Mm. Tried again. In fact, I moved to Salt Lake. Went to a ward in Salt Lake. I had just been disfellowshipped. It was just still so hard. Went to a bishop, wanted to start over. Wanted to say, Tell him, be up front, and said, this is what's happened. This is who I am. I don't want to be this. I want to be active. I don't want to have these feelings. And all I remember is he looked down at this little membership paper that I had filled out, and he said, you are too old. You cannot be in this ward. So good luck. Hope you. You'll have to go to a family ward. So after I had told him everything, he said, I couldn't be in that

John Dehlin [00:17:58] ward, so you had to go find another bishop.

Carolyn Ball [00:18:01] So I didn't until I moved to Missouri. So that was a few years later. So I just remained disfellowshipped. I moved to Missouri in 1998, and kind of in between there, my records kind of. They were transferred to Missouri. And I don't know how that works, but I know that there's something on my records that stated that I was disfellowshipped. And the bishop would call me in sometimes and say, how's it going? How are you doing? Do you want to become a full member of the church again? And I would try to avoid that. I would try to. Because I Didn't want to talk about it.

Carolyn Ball [00:18:42] It was too hard. And then a really strange thing happened. One of the students that I taught at byu, her husband's father was my stake president in Missouri. And when he found out that I was his daughter in law's American Sign Language teacher, that she talked about all the time, and she admired me and thought that I was a great influence in her life, he said, we have to get her back in the church. We have to, we have to get her back in because we just can't let someone of her caliber go.

Carolyn Ball [00:19:22] So they came to my house and he said, we need to bring you back to the church. You need to give up your lifestyle. And in fact, I had the man, the brother that is over all of the disability services in the church, also called me and said, when are you going to give this up so that you can come back? And we need you, we need you to translate all these things into being these videotapes. So he said, you know, when are you going to give this up?

Carolyn Ball [00:19:55] And I mean, I had phone calls like that. Then the stake president, and then it was after he started that process, they wouldn't give up on it. And they kept calling me and saying, you need to come back to the church. You need to come back.

Carolyn Ball [00:20:10] And then all of a sudden I got a call from the stake president, it was a different stake president. And he said, well, it was the clerk. And he said, we need to have you meet with the stake president.

Carolyn Ball [00:20:24] And so I went to his office and I knew what it was for. In my heart, I felt what it was for. And he said he was very nice. He was the first, first priesthood holder that talked to me openly about my partner, how I felt.

Carolyn Ball [00:20:45] He was a very kind man and I love him, President Rial. And he just, when I came in, he said, wow, I was expecting to see someone ugly, mean, and that I would not fill the spirit with. And he said, I feel the spirit with you. I can't believe that you're the same person that they've described to me.

Carolyn Ball [00:21:11] And then he said, you have to choose between the church or your partner. And I said, I can't go back to the church. And he said, then there's nothing else we can do but to excommunicate you. And so I said, okay.

Carolyn Ball [00:21:32] And he gave me a hug and we prayed and I left. And I thought when I left, I mean, right before I was excommunicated, I read and read about the Holy Ghost because I thought, oh my gosh, I'm Going to be this person of outer darkness. I'm not going to be able to fill the spirit. I'm not going to be able to help people. I'm not going to be able to do anything because I don't have the Holy Ghost.

Carolyn Ball [00:21:54] And when I left, I felt like I had lost £100. And it was. It was a very freeing. I'm not really sure how to explain that, except that I just. I guess I just felt I wasn't living a lie anymore.

Celibacy, Belonging, and the Church's Future

Carolyn Ball [00:22:14] Well, the option of celibacy, I think, is sad. I'm not. Look, we all know everything is talked up about sex, but I'm gonna tell you what. Sex isn't everything, and it's not sex isn't everything between two women either. It might be what guys think, but it's not. I mean, a relationship is a partnership. It's that you feel close to that person. You can share with them, you can love them. And I have tried to do that with a man. I can't. I can't do it. And I think it's devastatingly sad that the choice that I can't feel love or be loved or that I can't love is extremely.

Carolyn Ball [00:22:54] It's. It's sad, it's lonely. It is so depressing. I remember sitting by myself in the living room reading the Ensign in the dark. Well, of course, with a little light on so I could see the enzyme, but just so that I could try to glean to. Okay, there's hope. Okay, don't have these feelings, okay? I don't need love. I don't need this. I don't need that. I don't need these things in my life.

Carolyn Ball [00:23:22] How sad is that? We all need love. We all need acceptance. We all need that companionship. And it's not always easy. Relationships are hard, but we need that companionship. So not to be able to be denied that you can have the gospel, but you can't have. You have to sit by yourself on the bench with no one, no love, no one to sit to and talk to and say, what do you think about this church principle? What do you think about this?

Carolyn Ball [00:23:52] You can't have that. I mean, it's terrible. If they said that to heterosexual members, okay, so from now on, you can't have that. I think it's terrible. I think it's impossible. And all you're going to do and all it's propagating is lying.

Carolyn Ball [00:24:15] And that's what I did for too many years. And it's devastating. It hurts you. It hurts the Church. Anybody can lie on their temple recommend interview, and that's what it comes down to. So you're, I think, only having those options.

Carolyn Ball [00:24:32] Either you don't have a partner or you don't have sex or whatever is. I think they're just asking for people to lie because nobody wants to let go of the love and the companionship of the church and the gospel.

Carolyn Ball [00:24:47] I would have lied the rest of my life if I could have, but I couldn't. My integrity would not allow me to do that. The first thing that comes to my mind why they should care is because they're brothers and sisters and moms and dads. There are many, many gay and lesbian people in our church, but you don't see them. They're there.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] What made you say that?

Carolyn Ball [00:25:18] Because I was one of them. And the only place to congregate a lot of times for LDS people or any gay and lesbian people, a lot of times people say, well, all they do is go to the bars. Well, that's the only place sometimes that you can go and be with people that are the same. Doesn't necessarily mean. I've never. I mean, I never drank.

Carolyn Ball [00:25:42] But there's a lot of people that are sitting in that congregation that are gay and lesbian, and they might not be open or they. I mean, they're certainly not going to be open to the members. Because if you say one word, it's ew. I mean, all you have to do is go to the movie theater or sit in a Relief Society meeting or a priesthood and have somebody say gay or they're going to kiss them and then they all go, ew, sick. Puke. I mean, how does that make you feel? I mean, it makes me feel you want to hide everything.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] So that makes people be quiet.

Carolyn Ball [00:26:14] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] So you think every ward in the church probably has Totally.

Carolyn Ball [00:26:18] I have absolutely no doubt. Missionaries. There's no doubt in my mind.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] So number one reason they should care is because their loved ones likely are definitely okay. What else? Why else? Why should a Mormon care?

Carolyn Ball [00:26:36] Well, number one, we are supposed to be Christians. We are supposed to love everyone. And I think that would be the most number one reason why you would care about gay and lesbian people. Don't you want them? They're great people. We want them to be. We want to bring everyone together. And besides that, who did Christ hang out with? If they say that, only these Mormons. We're the elite group. You're not following Christ's teachings. You're not following the scriptures. So follow the scriptures and love everyone that's why.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] And do you think the church is. I mean, hey, man, it's only 3%, 5%. Do you think the church is missing out?

Carolyn Ball [00:27:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] How?

Carolyn Ball [00:27:30] Well, it might be really sad, but tithing. I'm going to tell you what gay and lesbian people. Now, I'm not saying all the way around, but we make a lot of money and there's a lot of tithing out there that they're missing out on. And with tithing comes, you know, fast offerings and all the things and the service that we can give and all. And I would give my life to serve, but I can't.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] The church.

Carolyn Ball [00:28:00] Right, the church. I can't. I can't even go to the cannery. I can't can tuna because I'm a lesbian. So that's pretty sad.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] So you think gays could contribute?

Carolyn Ball [00:28:23] Yeah, I think that. I think actually, I think gay men would be the best bishops in the world because they are very compassionate. Most gay men I know are the friends I have. Gay men are my best friends.

Carolyn Ball [00:28:41] And they listen, they talk, they understand feelings. And I love my gay male friends. And if they were my bishop, I would love to talk to them. I have never felt bitterness or hate about the church, nor the people that have been involved with excommunicating me or disfellowshipping me. I feel sad that those are the choices that the church has made. However, I also know that the church has a right to have its own laws and regulations that they want to follow. I understand that completely.

Carolyn Ball [00:29:30] But I want you to know, and I want them to know I would be a great. I am a great person. And there's a lot of gay and lesbian GLBT members out there that are being lost because we can't serve.

Carolyn Ball [00:29:48] I can't do anything in the church because they think that I'm a bad person. Because what they call SSA is same sex attraction. They can't even say the term gay or homosexual, at least to me. I never. They couldn't.

Carolyn Ball [00:30:05] I think it's sad. I have a lot to give and I can't give it. And I'm not going to give it to another church. I can't believe in. I can. I can't believe in another church.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] What about members who are scared that if. That if gays are accepted, if gays are hanging around, that it's going to, you know, influence their kids inappropriately?

Carolyn Ball [00:30:32] I understand that. I really do. But first off, I think we just have to understand that being gay or lesbian doesn't make you a pedophile. It doesn't make you a person that all you think about is sex.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] What about the gay lifestyle?

Carolyn Ball [00:30:54] What is the gay lifestyle? Seriously, what is it?

John Dehlin [00:30:59] It's, you know, it's. It's naked gay pride parades and, you know, parties and illicit things and.

Carolyn Ball [00:31:08] Yeah, yeah, that's about what anyone ever sees of gay people is the gay pride. And yeah, those are great parades, but I can't stand going to em because it's not me.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] What about the fear of it spreading to children?

Carolyn Ball [00:31:30] Well, I think there's a lot of research that even the. What is it? The DSM for social workers does not define gay and lesbian people as an illness. It is not an illness and it doesn't spread. You don't all of a sudden touch somebody and they become gay or lesbian. Just like when you were born. All of a sudden you didn't have to say, oh, I like girls. Oh, I like. I mean, it just happens. And I know a lot of gay couples that have children and their children are not gay or lesbian.

John Dehlin [00:32:06] Their children aren't.

Carolyn Ball [00:32:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] They didn't catch it.

Carolyn Ball [00:32:08] No, they didn't catch it. So they didn't get the illness.

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