Episode Transcript
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Ruby Frankie Vents Guilty in Child Abuse Case
Guest [00:00:00] You.
John Dehlin [00:00:04] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. Sort of breaking news today. We are here to Discuss it's, it's December 19th. We're here to discuss yesterday breaking news that eight passengers, mom Ruby Frankie pled guilty in I believe a St. George courtroom for child abuse. And here to help break the news and share the story is one of our favorite invitees or on Mormon Stories podcast, Lauren Matthias from Hidden True Crime podcast. Hey Lauren.
Lauren Matthias [00:00:41] Hey John. Thanks for having me.
John Dehlin [00:00:43] Yeah, no, it's great to have you. So this I guess for people who have been on another planet or asleep, do you want to give a quick one minute overview of who Ruby Frankie is and who eight passengers are and who Jody Hildebrand is, why they're in jail. And we can just do the really quick version.
Lauren Matthias [00:01:02] There you go. Yeah, the quick version. Ruby Frankie is a mother, a Mormon mother, a YouTuber, millions of followers on her family YouTube channel who has been arrested or was arrested with sick back in August along with her therapist, her guru, her business partner, partner Jody Hildebrandt in southern Utah. And they were Both arrested on six counts of aggravated child abuse. When it came to two of Ruby's younger children, a 12 year old boy and a 10 year old girl, RF and EF. The the what we heard about RF's abuse once he escaped Jody Hildebrandt's Ivan, Utah home were horrendous. The entire world listened and turned in to think how in the world could this happen? This mother of a YouTube channel showing her family raising, raising children. How could this happen? And, and so here we are. Fast forward a few months. It's December and Ruby Frankie and Jody Hilder remain behind bars. But Ruby Frankie, the mother has now taken a plea deal and that's what we're going to talk about today. Eight Passengers was the YouTube channel. You also wanted me to mention Eight Passengers.
John Dehlin [00:02:12] Yeah, yeah. And you've, you and Dr. John Matthias have done great coverage on this story and others on Hidden True Crime crime podcast. We on Mormon Stories podcast have interviewed Jesse Hildebrandt, Jody Hildebrandt's niece, and also Adam Paul Steed who was a victim of Jody Hildebrandt as well. We've tried to cover it. So make sure and go back and check both of our archives for that coverage.
Ruby Frankie's Statement on Jody Hildebrandt's Ple
Lauren Matthias [00:02:39] So.
John Dehlin [00:02:40] So Jody and Ruby have been in, in jail. We've been waiting to see what was going to happen, if they were going to stay unified, if they were going to split. Obviously. Kevin Frankie has filed for divorce from Ruby and we were just kind of all on pins and needles to find out what was going to happen. And I think the first real sign of a plea deal came with with Ruby's law firm. Is that right?
Lauren Matthias [00:03:08] Yes. Yes, that's right. So her council, Ruby Frankie's counsel, sent a long statement on behalf of Ruby sharing that her moral compass was skewed, but that she has reset it and that she was taken advantage of by Jody Hildebrandt, this LDS therapist and business partner of Ruby's. And so there was certainly hints that a plea deal was on the table. And then a waiver hearing was scheduled, which implies, hey, yes, the plea deal is here, and now we're going to talk about it. So we certainly all knew that it was coming down, and. And it did as of this week.
John Dehlin [00:03:48] So let's go ahead and read it. I'll read it. And then I want you to pause me at any moment, and I want to hear any commentary you have. Is that okay?
Lauren Matthias [00:03:55] Terrific. Yes.
Ruby Frankie's Family Releases Statement Regarding Her Case
John Dehlin [00:03:56] All right, so here we go. Quote, windward Law is making a statement on behalf of Ruby Frankie regarding the pending charges in the Washington County Fifth District Court, along with her thoughts about her current family situation. Our client is working with the prosecutor's office and anticipates resolving this matter quickly by entering a plea agreement with the court on Monday, December 18th. Now, Lauren, as someone who follows crime and the legal system, when you get a statement like this, what. What comes into your mind? Is there anything that just, like, immediately flashes in? What does a statement like this mean to you as soon as you start reading it?
Lauren Matthias [00:04:36] It's a really, really big deal. When this came down, it was huge, and I was actually surprised. I think it was underplayed. Local news in Utah certainly covered the statement, but a lot of fellow podcasters and YouTubers didn't. Didn't read this verbatim. And I think it's really important. It's really interesting. It's really telling. Now, it's not all. It's. You don't always get such a strong notice about what's going to happen. Attorneys, especially defense attorneys, do not always make statements like this. They're some of the most quiet. They hold things very close to their chest, especially defense attorneys. So this. This was a really big moment to hear this and to learn that this is what's going on behind the scenes.
John Dehlin [00:05:14] Yeah. All right, I'll keep going. This. Ruby Frankie is a devoted mother and is also a woman committed to constant improvement. Initially, Ms. Frankie believed. Why would they include a statement like that? That she's a devoted mother. What's that?
Lauren Matthias [00:05:33] They're setting the stage. They're setting the stage to. To tell us what their plan is. Which is. Which is going to be further down here that she's going to blame Jody Hildebrandt.
John Dehlin [00:05:45] But they're also kind of saying she's great, she's a great mom. She's committed to self improvement. They're trying to say she's a great person. Right.
Lauren Matthias [00:05:52] I mean, this is very similar to how Lori Vala's defense painted her, another fellow LDS mother that. That until she met Chad Daybell, she was a great mother. You know, the Netflix documentary sort of implies that too. Her family really does say Lori was a great mother. She would never hurt her children. Well, what changed? Well, she met Chad Dbell. So they're setting the stage here. You know, Ruby's a great mother. Ruby is not the problem. Ruby was great. She was devoted to her family. Well, what changed? And I think what they're trying to say is what changed is that she met Jody Hildebrandt.
John Dehlin [00:06:24] Okay, all right.
Guest [00:06:25] Same, same.
The Jody Hildebrandt Case
John Dehlin [00:06:26] All right, Ms. Frankie. Initially, Ms. Frankie believed that Jody Hildebrandt had the insight to offer a path to continual improvement. It probably should add that she was likely referred to Jody Hildebrandt by. I mean, most likely by Mormon Church leadership or by close, trusted friends or family. I think that people forget that. I think people forget that Jody Hildebrandt, at least over several years, was one of the most recommended therapists within the Mormon Church. I think that's. I think later, I think I only get to the point that. That there might be some institutional complicity or responsibility in this as well. Anyway, yeah.
Lauren Matthias [00:07:09] Jody Hildebrandt didn't live in a $3 million home because she didn't have clients.
John Dehlin [00:07:12] Yeah, exactly. And where. Where did she get those referrals? A lot of them. Okay. Yeah. Because I don't know a lot of therapists that live in $3 million homes, by the way.
Lauren Matthias [00:07:21] No.
John Dehlin [00:07:21] Especially on a single income.
Lauren Matthias [00:07:23] Exactly.
Jody Hildebrandt pled guilty to Sexual Assault
John Dehlin [00:07:24] All right, so Ms. Hildebrandt took advantage of this quest and twisted it into something heinous. Over an extended period, Ms. Hildebrandt systematically isolated Ruby Frankie from her extended family, older children, and her husband, Kevin Frankie. This prolonged isolation resulted in Ms. Frankie being subjected to a distorted sense of morality shaped by Ms. Hildebrandt's influence. Now, tell us why that word distorted is important there.
Lauren Matthias [00:07:59] Yeah, that was a fascinating sentence for me in this statement. Fascinating that the defense attorneys would even use that word and why they would use that word. Distorted is Jody Hildebrandt's word. And so here you have this line that is Jody Hildebrandt. Jody Hildebrandt tells us during the Eternal Core Conference that was started by therapist Tom Harrison bringing God back into therapy. And Jody Hildebrandt tells us herself in that Eternal Core Conference that she had a vision in that she was trying to figure out a word to explain to her, her patients, to get them to understand what she was trying to do. And essentially this vision or God finally came to her. That shame is equivalent to distortion. And now every one of her patients is taught that they need to get out of. Of distortion. That just being distorted is the problem. That is Jody Hildebrand's word. It's all about distortion. And so for them to say Jody Hildebrandt in. Influenced her and now she has a distorted. What was the word? View of morality. A distorted. It wasn't view, but distorted sense of morality. Distorted sense of morality shaped by Hildebrand's influence. I don't know. Do you, do you think that was on purpose? I. I think, of course, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:09:16] It had to be on purpose.
Lauren Matthias [00:09:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:09:17] That was. If there was one word that typified her, her diagnosis of, of any mental illness, it was distortion. Right?
Lauren Matthias [00:09:28] It was distortion. Yes. You're distorted. And anything that you do that isn't up to Jody Hildebrandt's desire that you're distorted.
John Dehlin [00:09:38] Distortion would. Was defined as anything Jody Hildebrandt didn't like or that didn't make her money or give her power or influence. Right.
Lauren Matthias [00:09:45] It was the equivalent of Chad and Lori Daybell's dark and light scale. It would be like saying, you know, if this was, if this was Lori Vallow, to be saying a dark, a dark sense of morality. It's the same thing. It's this word distorted it. So, yeah, it was a profound moment.
The Use of the Word Morality in the Kevin Frankie Statement
John Dehlin [00:09:59] And Lauren, I think I read, I think I saw somewhere, maybe it was a TikTok video that you put out. You think this, this choice of the word morality, especially within a Mormon context, could have significance? And you know, I, and I'll just tell you, whenever I've appeared, like I've appeared on Court TV a couple times, and they always want to know whether Jody Hildebrand and Ruby were in some sort of sexual relationship. That's just what everyone wants to know outside of Mormonism. But, but talk about the significance in your mind possibly of the word morality in a Mormon context.
Lauren Matthias [00:10:36] Yes, yes, I thought the choice of the word morality is really interesting. Morality usually means, let's say, you know, Christian wide. It often is referring to integrity, to honesty.
Guest [00:10:47] Right.
Lauren Matthias [00:10:48] This moral compass. And in the next paragraph, they're actually going to use the word moral compass. And, you know, but, you know, they are both members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I think that members of the LDS Church and those that are familiar with the LDS Church can agree that morality is often a term used for fidelity or the law of chastity or, you know, not. Not cheating on your spouse or staying faithful to your spouse. I can't say for certain what they're implying here with the word morality, but I do find it an interesting choice of word in this statement. And it's not used just once, it's used twice. And then later on in the statement, they even refer to Kevin Frankie filing for divorce. And it's. It got my attention. Let's say that. Absolutely got my attention.
Ruby Frankie's Change of Moral Compass
John Dehlin [00:11:39] All right, we'll continue. During Ruby Frankie's incarceration in Washington County Jail over the past few months, she has actively engaged in an introspection that has allowed her to reset her moral compass and understand the full weight of her actions. And I'm just going to say, Laura Matthias, that when you watch the video about the play, it does look like her moral compass has been reset, doesn't it?
Lauren Matthias [00:12:03] Yes, it does.
John Dehlin [00:12:04] It does.
Lauren Matthias [00:12:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:12:07] I guess.
Lauren Matthias [00:12:07] Maybe.
John Dehlin [00:12:07] Maybe prison will do that to you. I don't mean to be.
Lauren Matthias [00:12:10] Yeah. And I want to say this. When it comes to the speculated relationship with Ruby and Jody, her taking this plea deal, we might not ever know unless Jody wants to bring it up in her defense. Because now that she's taken a plea deal, her children will not have to testify. Luckily for the children. Probably luckily also for Ruby and. But I also don't know if we'll get into those nitty gritty details. Right. She'll simply be sentenced on January 20th, so we might not ever know.
John Dehlin [00:12:38] Yeah. Okay.
Guest [00:12:42] February.
John Dehlin [00:12:43] So reset of moral compass. But you. You agree that she looked like there's some real, genuine contrition there, right?
Lauren Matthias [00:12:49] I do. I do. When she was. When she was pleading guilty. Usually when criminals or defendants are pleading guilty, it's yes, no. Yes, your honor. You know, they've been. They've been told by their attorneys what to say and to respond when asked. She. She adds words. You'll see. She. She doesn't just say yes.
Guest [00:13:09] She.
Lauren Matthias [00:13:10] She refers to regret. But we'll. We'll watch that. You're right. Okay.
John Dehlin [00:13:14] Okay. All right. Demonstrating a sincere dedication to Personal growth and rehabilitation. She's actively begun the process by reaching out to members of her family. Through heartfelt apologies, she seeks to mend relationships and contribute positively to the healing journey of her family. All right, Lauren, anything else you think is interesting about this statement? That. That maybe we can read in terms of tea leaves or whatever?
Lauren Matthias [00:13:43] You know, I. That was a partial. I sent that to you, that screenshot, and it was a partial bit of the statement. Let me see if I can't pull up.
John Dehlin [00:13:51] Oh, there's a little bit more.
Lauren Matthias [00:13:52] There's a little bit more. You know what? I don't think I can pull it up in time, but I will say that what she continues to say in that statement is that Jody. This is pretty much Jody Hildebrandt's fault, and not that that's my paraphrasing and that she's very sad that Kevin Frankie has filed for divorce, but she understands and she's working to mend things. And so she is accepted a plea deal. That's what.
John Dehlin [00:14:17] Okay. All right. All right, well, maybe. Maybe next. Why don't we go ahead and just roll the video and Lauren, I'll ask you to pause at any point and we can comment. Is that okay?
Lauren Matthias [00:14:30] Yes.
Waiver Hearing for Frankie Jones
John Dehlin [00:14:31] All right, here we go. So for those who are listening, Ms.
Guest 2 [00:14:38] Frankie is now here.
John Dehlin [00:14:39] She's in a prison attire, gray and white stripes.
Guest 2 [00:14:42] We are scheduled for a waiver hearing. Is there going to be a waiver today?
Guest 3 [00:14:46] There will.
John Dehlin [00:14:47] Plus a plea agreement, your honor. All right, I'll ask the bailiff to hand you. It has been executed.
Regarding Lori Valo Dable's Curls
Guest 2 [00:14:55] All right, Mr. Winward, you have discussed with Ms. Frankie a preliminary hearing. What's involved in a preliminary hearing?
John Dehlin [00:15:03] I have a weird question I want to ask really quick. Lauren, I apologize. We're seeing her with her curled hair and. And remembering Lori Valow and kind of her curled hair. Do prison. Do prisoners get like cosmetic equipment to. To beautify themselves before a hearing or a plea deal? How does that work?
Lauren Matthias [00:15:24] Well, first, a few things. It could be a few things. So sometimes they do, depending on the court and depending on what the defense attorney asks, because it is believed that they should be able to look a certain part when being presented, especially in front of a jury. This is not a jury, though, and this is a plea deal. So I don't really know if it would be necessary in this situation. One thing with Lori Valadable. I attended her six week trial. She had the same curls every day. She was actually braiding her hair in the evenings. So she would braid her hair in the Evenings because she didn't have a hair dryer. And then she would take the braids out and part her hair in the middle. And that is how she got her daily curls for trial. Now, there is a recent mug shot of Lori Valo Dable where it does indeed look like she might have had a curling iron. Who knows how that happened or how she got that? But there's certainly things going on within the. Within the jail and prison system where they. They can get a curling iron for one moment, another moment, they're braiding their hair. And it looks like to me that this could possibly be braids or some natural curls she has going on. Being a woman who curls my hair. Yeah, I think this might be braids or some natural curl going on.
John Dehlin [00:16:38] Well, no shame. I just. I was just curious how that. How that worked. Yeah. Just stood out to me for whatever reason. All right, let's go back to the clip.
Preliminary Hearing
Guest 2 [00:16:56] Miss Frankie is now here. Mr. Winword, we are scheduled for a waiver hearing. Is there going to be a waiver today?
Guest 3 [00:17:05] There will.
Lauren Matthias [00:17:06] Plus a plea agreement, your honor.
Guest 2 [00:17:08] All right, I'll ask the bailiff to
John Dehlin [00:17:10] hand you if it's been executed.
Guest 2 [00:17:14] All right. Mr. Winwood, you have discussed with Ms. Franke a preliminary hearing. What's involved in a preliminary hearing? She understands she has a right to a preliminary hearing on all of the charges in the case. She understands what the charges are, and she's prepared to waive a preliminary hearing in the case on all charges. She is.
John Dehlin [00:17:33] And that is contained in this agreement on page seven as well.
Guest 2 [00:17:36] Very good. All right. I've been handed a plea agreement, and it appears to be signed by Ms. Frankie. Ms. Frankie, did you sign this agreement?
Mrs.
Lauren Matthias [00:17:48] Yes.
Guest 2 [00:17:48] And you did that today? When did you sign it?
Lauren Matthias [00:17:52] The 18th.
Guest 2 [00:17:53] Okay. You've read it carefully.
Lauren Matthias [00:17:57] Every word.
Guest 2 [00:17:59] Your signature represents to the court that you've read it carefully, that you understand what you've read and that you agree to all of the terms. Is that all accurate?
Guest [00:18:07] Yes.
Guest 2 [00:18:11] You've had sufficient time to ask questions of your counsel to go over any questions you have, you're ready to go forward?
Lauren Matthias [00:18:20] Yes.
Guest 2 [00:18:20] You don't need any more time?
Lauren Matthias [00:18:22] I'm ready.
Guest 2 [00:18:27] Miss Frankie, is anyone pressuring you to enter into this agreement?
Lauren Matthias [00:18:31] No.
Guest 2 [00:18:32] Anyone promising you anything I haven't been told about?
Guest [00:18:35] No.
Guest 2 [00:18:36] Anything that's not in the written plea agreement?
Guest [00:18:39] No.
Guest 2 [00:18:40] Are you under the influence of alcohol or drugs today?
Lauren Matthias [00:18:43] No.
Guest 2 [00:18:44] Is there anything today that could in any way interfere with your ability to understand the agreement, its consequences?
Guest 3 [00:18:52] Anything?
Guest [00:18:53] No.
Guest 2 [00:18:54] No physical condition? No. Medication?
Guest 3 [00:18:56] Nothing.
Guest 2 [00:18:57] No.
Ruby Hildebrandt's Plea Deal
John Dehlin [00:19:02] All right, Lauren, so just so far, I'm guessing that's pretty standard boilerplate plea deal language. Is there anything in terms of her appearance, her affect or what. What just transpired that's worth noting, or should we just keep going?
Lauren Matthias [00:19:16] No. Yeah, she seems. You know, you do see a lot of people with absolutely no affect when they're pleading guilty. You know, they're. Again, their attorneys have said, this is what we're doing. This is your plea deal. Just follow the judge. You know, she. She is definitely. She is definitely. There's a lot of body language. She is saying it strongly. She is. She is definitive. She, at least to me, I don't know what you see. I feel like she's really making an emphasis on every word she says. This is. This is all me. This is what I want. She seems contrite. I also want to point out that. Well, we'll wait for that. We'll wait for that.
John Dehlin [00:19:53] I'll just say. The only thing I'll say is just in terms of her affect, when you see her YouTube personality or her personality when she's sitting next to Jody and sort of like, as. As Jody's apostle preaching Jody's doctrine to speak, it's like. It's like a completely different personality here. She seems thoughtful. She seems contemplative. She seems more subdued. And it's. It's like a. It's like a ruby Frankie I've. I've never seen before. And it almost. It al. Almost makes me think of sort of this idea of a cult personality where when you're under the influence of. Of someone who's wielding undue influence over you, it literally represents a transformation of your personality into someone that's not your authentic self. And I would say that that's what's happened here, except for the fact that Ruby displayed a totally different personality on social media before she ever met Jody Hildebrandt. So it just makes me wonder, try and understand that difference, other than the fact that she's in prison, humiliated, and. And is. Is facing, you know, years of prison time. Maybe that's just super obvious.
Lauren Matthias [00:21:09] No, well said. Well said. I would. I. I agree with what you say. It is a very different ruby Frankie. And then I want to point out that the reason they are doing this, you know, this going through like you. You are here. You're not under the influences for appeals purposes. If, you know, if she's. She does go to prison for 10 years, and five years later, she decides, hey, I want to appeal this decision. I'M ready to get out, you know. You know. Yes, this is protocol so that they can make sure that she can't say she was under some undue influence.
John Dehlin [00:21:39] The amazing. The amazing Radio Free Mormon is with us in the comments, and he's an attorney. He has a lot of courtroom experience, and he says the judge is locking in her plea so she can't back out later. Standard. Thanks, RFM for that input. Love to have you. Rfm. All right, let's keep going with the video.
Frankie's Plea Deal
Guest 2 [00:21:59] Any further record, counsel?
John Dehlin [00:22:02] No, your honor.
Guest 2 [00:22:06] Mr. Winwood, we're ready to proceed.
John Dehlin [00:22:09] We are ready to proceed.
Guest 2 [00:22:10] All right, then, Ms. Frankie, how do you plead? To count one, aggravated child abuse, a second degree felony.
Lauren Matthias [00:22:19] Guilty.
Guest 2 [00:22:21] To count three, aggravated child abuse, a second degree felony.
Guest 3 [00:22:26] Guilty.
Guest 2 [00:22:27] To count five, aggravated child abuse, a second degree felony.
Guest 3 [00:22:31] Guilty.
Guest 2 [00:22:32] And to count six, aggravated child abuse, a second degree felony.
Lauren Matthias [00:22:37] With my deepest regret and sorrow for my family and my children.
Guest 2 [00:22:42] Guilty.
John Dehlin [00:22:44] Really quickly, as you watch her respond each time, for those who are just listening, she's like, pausing. It almost seems like her voice is trembling. She's. It almost looks like she's choking back tears. And then. And then she's, you know, gathering her resolve each time and saying the word guilty. That. That's. That's pretty powerful to me. I'm curious if you feel the same way, Lauren.
Lauren Matthias [00:23:11] Yeah, she also. She also nods. So there's movement. It's not just saying the word guilty. She nods like this, guilty, guilty. And she thinks about it. She thinks about what she's saying before she says it. Yeah. You know, I agree with you, John. I. I want to give another side because, you know, some people saw this as her having a hard time saying it, that she didn't want to say it, and she was forced, and she was like, ah, here we go. So. So I'll share that. That is a side that some people see. I. I agree with you. I think she is saying this again with. With some feeling and some emotion and showing that she means it.
John Dehlin [00:23:48] Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's. Let's keep going. This is kind of tearing my heart out a little bit. I'm being honest.
Guest 2 [00:23:56] There is a factual basis set forth in the agreement. That is a stipulated factual basis. Council.
Guest 3 [00:24:04] That's correct, your honor.
Guest [00:24:06] That is correct.
John Dehlin [00:24:06] Judge Walton,
Guest 2 [00:24:17] The court finds that the factual basis is sufficient. All of the terms of the agreement are stipulated, including that the court obtain a presentence investigation report, Correct?
Guest 3 [00:24:31] Correct.
Guest 2 [00:24:33] There won't be any argument about whether prison is the appropriate sentence. And there's an agreement about the four counts running consecutive.
John Dehlin [00:24:45] That is correct.
Guest 2 [00:24:48] All right. The court finds then that Ms. Frankie's pleas are made knowingly and voluntarily. The court therefore accepts and enters those pleas. The court orders the preparation of a pre sentence investigation report to be prepared by APNP and the Department of Corrections Council. What about sentencing on February 20th? I think, do you, do you and your client agree?
John Dehlin [00:25:14] So now they're kind of doing scheduling. Is there anything else that's important about that video, Lauren, or does that pretty much cover the important.
Lauren Matthias [00:25:21] That covers it. I think I want to emphasize this too when we, when she's saying guilty, I, and maybe we should share this now, this plea deal. She's not necessarily going to now be able to go home. Each of these count, so, so originally there were four, or, excuse me, six counts of aggravated child abuse. She is, she is pleading guilty to four of those. So two have been dropped. Each of those counts holds a maximum sentence of 15 years in prison. So we're, she could still at her sentencing in February, then be given 60 years in prison. So I think that's important to note too, during this is she's not saying, yes, I, I, I've said I'm guilty. I said I'm sorry, now can I have the cookie now can I go home to my family and can I be with my kids? I think it's important to note here that she's saying she's pleading guilty to four counts of second degree felony aggravated child abuse, each of those holding up to 15 years in prison.
John Dehlin [00:26:25] I, I'm just, I'm, one of the questions I have saved for the end is like, is this a deal? Like, is this a good deal? It seems like she just got two of the six counts dropped, but she's still facing the rest of her life in prison. So I'm just wondering why they took this deal. Because it, I don't know. On initial glance, it doesn't even seem like a good deal for her, but I don't, I don't know the legal system, so.
Lauren Matthias [00:26:49] Yeah. Well, it also sounds like they really are going to want to go after Jody Hildebrandt too. I mean, that's a whole other thing. I, I, it might change Jody Hildebrand's route. She might want to take a plea deal herself. But a lot of this plea deal has to do with Ruby Frankie testifying against Jody Hildebrandt at her trial is, Yeah, I mean, and who knows, the sentencing, the judge could be kind to her at sentencing, too. Not kind, but not as might not give her 60 years. Who knows? Who knows? But that is, that is up to the judge on February 20th.
John Dehlin [00:27:22] Yeah.
Lauren Matthias [00:27:22] So.
Ruby Frankie Plea Deal
John Dehlin [00:27:24] All right, well, let's go ahead and, and look at the actual plea. The, the plea itself. This is supplied to us by you by Hidden True Crime. So thanks for that. You guys are always Susie on the spot with your reporting and I just want to thank you for that. So here's, here's the front page and it's in the fifth district court plaintiff state of Utah against Ruby Frankie. And what it's going to do is it's going to list the four guilty pleas again for aggravated child abuse, which is a second degree felony, and again, one to 15 years, plus a fine of $10,000 per, plus a 90% surcharge. So it's also 40 grand. If you add up these four counts, 1, 3, 5 and 6, that's 40 grand plus up to 60 years in prison. She's 40. Is she 41 or 39? I think it says it on one of the pages.
Lauren Matthias [00:28:27] 40 something. 44. 41.
John Dehlin [00:28:30] Yeah. So I mean, 60 years, that's a life sentence potentially. I'm sure she won't get that. Some are saying she may just get four. But anyway, she's definitely a felon. A convicted felon, minimum. Go ahead, Go ahead.
Lauren Matthias [00:28:47] No, go ahead.
John Dehlin [00:28:48] A minimum four years in prison, potentially up to 60. Any. Anything else to say about. About that? Kind of first page? First, second page.
Lauren Matthias [00:28:58] No. Going back to what you said about why she might want to take this plea deal as well like it, you know, no one really wants to have their dirty laundry aired in front of a jury. Well, some people do, so I take that back, but I doubt she does. Yeah, dude, she is now just another reason someone might take a plea deal. I just wanted to explain that her children will not have to testify. Now, we might not know any intimate details about her relationship now with Jody Hildebrand or, or what was happening between her and Kevin. So. So there's a lot. And we, we hear some horrendous details in this pre. Deal. We'll be getting to him, but we probably won't hear more after that. You know, so there are, there are those reasons as well.
John Dehlin [00:29:43] Oh. That it could be worse. Are you saying it could be worse?
Lauren Matthias [00:29:46] Yeah, the things that, the evidence. Right. The discovery that they have that they would. That the prosecutors would have to bring forward in court to convict her. You know, we would hear all of that. So.
John Dehlin [00:29:58] Okay. Yeah. Well, so there were six counts. I guess the plea deal is that they dropped two of the six. Does each of these counts represent one of her children?
Lauren Matthias [00:30:10] Basically, no. I think they actually. Because there are two children, only two children involved. I think it. It actually different things, different acts that. Different acts of abuse that took place.
John Dehlin [00:30:24] Not six children, Six known acts of abuse on two children, Is that what you're saying?
Lauren Matthias [00:30:30] Yeah. And let me say there are multiple acts of abuse. There are not just six counts of abuse. They were charged initially with six showing. You know, I, I don't have the papers right in front of me. They're multiple, multiple days, months, two months of abuse that they really focus in on from May to August when RF Escapes for the final time. You escape once in July, we learn. So, so they, they just simply said, okay, six counts of aggravated abuse, but we'll will pull two of the counts. But yeah, they looked at the evidence. That's what they decided. And they're taking some specific things. So it's not like one act, I guess, a per count. Multiple acts per count.
John Dehlin [00:31:15] Oh, wow.
Lauren Matthias [00:31:15] Okay. Yeah.
Guest [00:31:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:31:17] I don't even know how that works. Okay, well, maybe for the next part, I'm just going to give a viewer and a listener a trigger warning that, that we're going to be talking about graphic descriptions of abuse of children. And it brings me no joy. It's dark and sad and, and disturbing. I can tell you when I shared, when, Lauren, when you sent these, this plea document to me, I immediately sent it to Jesse Hildebrandt. And I warned her. I said this. I warned them. I said, jesse, I think this might be triggering for you, but I think you'd want to know. And Jesse's response was, I'm shaking. And part of that is because some of the stuff in here is, is. Is reminiscent of Jody Hildebrandt's treatment of, of her niece Jesse. But, but just a warning for everyone. Please pause. You know, take care for yourself or for anyone in the room, because what we're about to read is disturbing. Anything you want to say about what we're about to read before we actually read through a bit of it? Lauren?
Warning! Abuse of Children in the Utah Case
Lauren Matthias [00:32:29] It's worse than I thought. It's very disturbing. It's. It's. They. It is torture. They call it torture in these, in these, in. In this. In these documents you're about to read? And it is. So, yeah, a warning. It's worse than I thought.
John Dehlin [00:32:48] Okay, all right, so I'll just read through. Maybe. Maybe I'll just kind of skim through it a little bit. Count one is. Is about harm inflicted upon RF Serious physical Injury. And yeah, it's. It. It literally says physical torture in that first count. The third count again talks about physical injury and severe emotional harm. The fifth count again talks about serious physical injury and severe emotional harm. And then six says similar kind of language. And then what it does is it goes on to describe some of these counts in more detail. And I'll just. So that's, that's the part I'll read that's kind of most disturbing. It says the defendant's actions for count one involved the physical torture of RF Initially, RF Was forced to do physical tasks for hours and days at a time. These included wall sits, carrying boxes full of books up and down stairs and working outside. Eventually, RF Was forced to do outside labor without shoes and, and in the summer heat, he was forced to stand in the direct sunlight for several days. He was forced to remain outside at all. I mean, this, this is already reminding me of, like, movies I've seen of like, prison camps in World War II. Like, that's, that's already what I'm reading. We're not even to the, to the, to the bad stuff yet or the, the really horrible stuff. He was forced to remain outside of all hours of the day and night for extended periods of time. These actions resulted in repeated and serious sunburns with blistered and sloughing skin.
Lauren Matthias [00:34:53] I want to point out, too, just remind everyone where they are. They're in Ivan's, Utah. This is where it gets. You have several, several days over in triple digits in the summer. This, this abuse happened that they're talking about from, again, May to August. And if you see her, Ivan's home in Kayenta, Jody Hilderbrand's home where the children are there. There's no shade. There are no trees. I, I can imagine it was a sweltering 120 degrees out. So several days of standing outside in that sun. I just want to emphasize.
John Dehlin [00:35:21] Yeah.
Lauren Matthias [00:35:22] That we're talking about some of the hottest sun, you know, in the, in the country, in the driest heat. So.
John Dehlin [00:35:27] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. These actions resulted in repeated and serious sunburns with blistered and sloughly skin. RF Was denied adequate water for several of the days he was required to remain in the summer heat. And he was punished when he secretly consumed water. Punished for consuming water. He was denied sufficient food. And when given food, he was given very plain meals like rice and chicken, while others in the house ate regular and more flavorful meals. He was isolated from other people and denied all forms of entertainment, including books, notebooks, and electronics. And that's just count one, actually. Let me just keep going. In addition, after RF attempted to run away in July, and this is July now, the peak of summer, his hands and feet were regularly bound. Binding included being tied to the defendant and to weights. What does that mean? Tied? So tied to. To Ruby. So they tied RF to Ruby or to wait.
Lauren Matthias [00:36:38] And another thing that's interesting to learn here, too, is that he had tried to escape before, so we didn't know that. So he escaped in August, which was finally when a neighbor called police. He was able to get to a neighbor's house. But we learned, so we learn now that he actually had a failed escape. So I can't imagine, you know, what he was trying to do. And I think of Jesse and how they told you that when they escaped, they, they ran and ran and ran and never looked back. And I couldn't help but think of why, why they felt that fear. Because RF escaped in, In July and it failed. And things got much worse for him after that.
John Dehlin [00:37:21] Yeah. So months. Months of being in detention and, and tortured, it looks like. All right, let's see. Many times the binding included using two sets of handcuffs, one on RF's wrists and one on his ankles. At times with RF lying on his stomach. Ropes were used to tie the two sets of handcuffs together so that his arms and lower legs were lifted off the ground. Is that the most disturbing of all the, the parts of what you've read, Lauren?
The Detained Child's Abuse
Lauren Matthias [00:37:58] For me, yeah. And I think that people. You have to envision it to really understand it. Right. So a lot of people skip over because they're like, I don't, I don't understand what that means, but that is. Let me. I feel like, deserves to be known exactly what this is, because this is, this is so disturbing. So they would essentially take handcuffs, handcuff his wrists, then another set, handcuff his ankles, make him lay on his stomach, and then lift his arms up with the handcuffs and his legs up with the handcuffs and then connect with rope, his wrists and his feet. So that. So it was like hog tied, but on his stomach up in the air where he'd sit. And then the next part you're about to read is that it would dig in to his tissue and muscles. So I know that we had heard from somebody, a really good source, that, you know, those tears you heard here from the 911 caller when, when they're looking at him, we heard that his wounds were so bad it went to his, to his bone. And I think this would imply that, that, that is accurate if we're referring to muscle and tissue. And then what happens next is, Is so bad. Yes, you can continue reading.
John Dehlin [00:39:07] RFM says maybe a cord connecting RF with his mom so he couldn't escape without waking her up. That's what RFM is, is wondering.
Lauren Matthias [00:39:17] Well, for the first one being tied to the defendant. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:39:20] Right.
Lauren Matthias [00:39:20] But this one is him being on the ground. Yeah,
Guest [00:39:25] yeah.
John Dehlin [00:39:25] Okay. I mean, this is, they're, they're basically treat. And this is a 12 year old kid.
Lauren Matthias [00:39:33] 12 year old boy.
John Dehlin [00:39:34] Yeah, 12 year old boy, 11 to 12. He's been treated like an animal who's about to be slaughtered. Right?
Lauren Matthias [00:39:41] Correct. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:39:42] Yeah. Yeah. The bindings resulted in injuries to RF's wrists and ankles where the handcuffs cut through the skin and damage the muscle and tissue. These injuries were treated, I mean, literally, to add insult to injury or injury to injury, these injuries were treated with homeopathic remedies. I think that's cayenne pepper and honey. Is that right, Lauren?
Lauren Matthias [00:40:10] Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [00:40:10] Which is not, which is not to the probable cause.
Lauren Matthias [00:40:13] We learned that. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:40:15] Yeah. So these wounds are treated with homeopathic remedies and covered with duct tape. Then the bindings were placed on top of the duct tape. Like that's, that's torture.
Lauren Matthias [00:40:29] So let me put cayenne pepper in these really, really deep wounds of yours that, that you've received because we pog. Tied you, you know, and, and now. And then I'll put duct tape over the cayenne pepper and then I'm gonna put the handcuffs back on and put you in the same position. Like this is, it's, this is. I'm shaking.
John Dehlin [00:40:51] Yeah, yeah. And, and I, I have to. I think I'm just naive about how people are in the world because when I, my, my what my brain does when I hear something like this, it's like, oh, this is, this is. This can't be real. You know what I mean? This can't be real. There's no way someone would do this to another human, let alone a mother to her own children, or Jody to someone else's child that is in her care. I think, Lauren, you had a great idea just to play a little bit of the Jesse Hildebrandt clip to give us an idea of what Jesse experienced from their aunt Jody Hildebrandt, you know, 10 or 20 years ago. Right?
Jesse Hildebrandt Talking About Their Aunt Jody H
Guest 3 [00:41:31] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:41:31] Yeah. So let's just go and play a
Lauren Matthias [00:41:33] little bit of that closet.
Guest [00:41:34] But it didn't have any windows. It had like a table, a chair, an Actual closet. And that's kind of about. That's about it. So that's where I. When I. When I was pulled out of school and I started living with her full time because she worked. I went with her to work, and that's where I stayed. And sometimes she would lock me in it, sometimes she wouldn't. But I was not allowed to leave. That was like, rule number one. I was not allowed to leave that room. And she would have me write out my sins on a piece of paper. And every day she gave me the same piece of paper, and I would have to write out my sins. And these sins that I was writing out, I was like. And again, I believed all this. I believed this fully. So I was like, oh, there must be more in me. I'm trying. I'm trying to think. I'd be like, oh, one time I lied to my best friend Scotty, and, like, these are the types of things I'm writing out. And then she would come back in, take that paper, read it to me, make me get on my hands and knees and beg for forgiveness as she read this back to me. And then she was like, no, this isn't it. This is not it. This isn't all. There's more, there's more, there's more. And there wasn't. And I would start making things up because I was like, I don't know. And because she was convinced there was more, things got worse and worse and worse. I ran away three times from her house. I went to a neighbors, I went to the police. They didn't do anything because Jody is the most convincing person you'll ever meet. When I was talking. Side note, the last time I met up with Alex, this was a couple years ago, she said something that I think is, like, so perfectly articulated into describing how manipulative and convincing Jody is. And she said, I cannot be around my mom. I can't ever be around her again, because if she told me the sky was yellow, I would believe her. She has this ability to, like, alchemize. Like. Like, just get into your soul. It's like. It is horrifying, and there's no real way of explaining it to people unless you've experienced it and. Or if you've experienced this level of emotional abuse, there's no way of really, like, having you. There's no way of understanding it.
John Dehlin [00:43:56] So I. Narcissistic cult leader comes to mind.
Lauren Matthias [00:44:00] Yes.
Guest [00:44:01] Yeah. I don't know if this is. If this is fully true, but I. From what I understand, she's Been diagnosed with many, many issues, including psychopathy. So she, like, as far as I'm aware, she is a psychopath.
John Dehlin [00:44:20] And we could play more if I remember right. Doesn't Jesse talk about marching up, you know, marching up and down hills, being put out in the cold and literally fleeing their aunt's residence, running away with barely the clothes on their back to escape the torture. Not. Not being able to use tampons because Jody Hildebrandt claimed that. That. That Jesse would masturbate with them. Just anything else that, that we should just add for, for what Jesse's experience was.
Lauren Matthias [00:44:55] They had to sleep in the cold balcony without. Without blankets, freezing. Yeah, they. They had to run and run and run miles and miles and miles without stopping. And if they stopped, they would have to do it again. And. And then if they did a good job, Jody would. Would praise them, which then felt like, oh, I did a good job. I mean, there was that. That Jesse interview is. That is one of the most profound interviews I've ever watched when it comes to this case or when it comes to child abuse, severe child abuse. And so to think that after Jody victimized Jesse, that this has happened again and that nobody listened to Jesse is heartbreaking. But that's where, for me, I am grateful that Ruby is going to testify against Jody, because this is not the first time Jody has done this or the second.
John Dehlin [00:46:01] Yeah. And I'll just add, not to always bring it back to the church, but I do think the Mormon Church needs to take some responsibility here. And in other cases, the fact that, that after Jody Hildebrandt does this to her niece and after she loses her license because of the way she abused Adam Paul Steed in his marriage, she becomes one of the top recommended therapists by Mormon bishops in all of Utah for one or two more decades. And we all know as Mormons how much we trust our bishops, how much we believe that our bishops are inspired. And I just can't tell you how many couples have come to me and said, jody Hildebrandt ruined our marriage. And it was our Mormon bishop that referred us to Jody Hildebrandt after. After all this with Jesse Hildebrandt and after the Adam Paul Steed stuff. Right?
Lauren Matthias [00:47:02] Yeah. Yeah. I. I believe that after the Adam Paul Steed, they did remove Jody from Family Services, but that bishops continued to.
John Dehlin [00:47:12] Absolutely, yeah.
Lauren Matthias [00:47:13] To. To suggest her and to recommend her.
John Dehlin [00:47:16] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Just. Just because I think it was a really good idea. Let's play a clip from your. I had to take my interview of Adam Paul Steed down because we were sued. I hope we can put that back up someday. But in the meantime, let's play a clip. Your amazing interview of Adam Paul Steed remains up. And let's just remind our audience really quickly of what Adam Paul Steed's experience was with. With Jody Hildebrandt. Really quickly.
Adam Paul Steed on Jody Hildebrandt's Abuse
Guest 3 [00:47:46] What Jody did to my life feels as a victim of child abuse. Coming forward feels like being, like being fucked backwards. It feels like she tried to make me be the person abusing children, force that into my head, that image, force that into society, force it everywhere and show that I had this terrible problem and use that as leverage over me. I mean, it's the only thing I can think of that's worse than being a child. And being abused would be being a parent forced to abuse your own child. And Jody tried in every way to create that false narrative and reality around my life. So when she violated records of letting my personal records go, or my. My personal private record. Sorry, it's hard to even talk. My. My medical records when she actually was doing. Was going around creating her own medical records that she never did when I was her patient and using the psych evaluation records for my psych evaluation for the Scouting case where I sued Scouting to show the damage of what happened to me. And there's this fear that you have where as a kid in Idaho, they have all sorts of ignorance there, and they teach you that if you're. You're, you know, if you're abused, then you could become like that. I know that was a normal insecurity that a clinical psychologist would totally understand with a victim. And there was a, like, a part of it where I said that I was scared of what people would think, because there are people that come up in Mormon Idaho and they'd be like, hey, can you be around these kids? Are you okay? Is this. And it just, it robbed my innocence. I. I was terrified of what that terrible pedophile did to me. The last thing in the world. It's like if you escaped from a Holocaust camp and somebody was like, oh, we're scared you're going to go start your own Holocaust camp.
John Dehlin [00:49:48] You know, I mean, that's. There's so much more we could play from that interview. But check out that interview on Hidden True Crime with Lauren and John Matthias. But it just gives everyone a sense for the diabolic nature of Jody Hildebrandt. It's really disturbing.
Lauren Matthias [00:50:04] More. Yeah, there was a bit more in the plea deal as well, too. More of what?
John Dehlin [00:50:10] Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Let's go. Let's go really quickly to the next page. Is that okay?
Lauren Matthias [00:50:16] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:50:16] Okay. Okay. Let's keep going. Specific instances of abuse committed by the defendant include kicking rfm. Well, RF not rfm. Kicking RF While wearing boots, holding his head underwater, and cutting off oxygen by placing her hands over his mouth and nose. Now we're getting into literal water torture, kicking, you know, suffocating kind of behaviors, and that's just count one. Anything you wanted to add about that, Lauren?
Lauren Matthias [00:50:49] I just can't imagine. Yeah, I can't imagine a mother. You know, we hear about mothers who. Who drown their children, who do these horrendous things. Envision a mother who pretends to drown you. Like how.
Guest [00:51:05] Who.
Lauren Matthias [00:51:06] Who pretends to cover your mouth and withhold oxygen from you, so you think that your mother is killing you, but then she. Then she lets you live. I can't imagine the fear that this little boy lived with and what he will suffer for the rest of his life because of this torture. Yeah, it's just.
John Dehlin [00:51:26] And let me just clarify, I haven't been sued for publishing the Adam Paul Steed interview. I've been threatened with a lawsuit if I don't take it down. So I took it down to avoid being sued. Just. Just to be clear about that. All right, well, if that weren't horrific enough. Count two. This is where I think, again, religious indoctrination, specifically within a Mormon context, starts to come into play. Count two. The actions described above caused severe emotion harm to RF Due to the fact that they began in May and escalated throughout the summer months. Additionally, the defendant and another adult, meaning Jody Hildebrandt, regularly sought to indoctrinate RF and convince him that he was evil. That's religious language. Evil and possessed. And when they say possessed, they mean by an evil spirit. And that he needed to willingly be obedient to avoid punishments and that the punishments were necessary to repent. He was also told that everything that was being done to him were acts of love. Can you explain how diabolical that is, the acts of love part? That it's sin, that it's worthiness, that this is repentance? As. As a. As someone who probably cares much about their faith tradition, Lauren. Oh, it comes up for you for that.
Counts 4 & 5
Lauren Matthias [00:52:53] It's so gross. It's. Yeah, it's spiritual abuse. It's emotional manipulation. It's. It's. It's horrible. It's taking cruelty and changing it into love. This is the epitome of not just physical abuse now, but emotional abuse. So, so here you are evil, you are bad. We need to fix you by hurting you, by making you suffer. And we're going to make you suffer in pain and torture you because. Because we love you, because we believe that you can be better, because you can be good. And so you need to just. We just need to kick you while you're down. And they literally kicked him with boots. But it's because we love you. It's because we love you. So. So we know you can be better. And we're going to make you better. It's. It is diabolical.
Guest [00:53:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:53:41] Going on to count three, it basically says the same sorts of things to EF which is the other child in question, including, you know, the forced physical labor, remaining outside, denial of food and water. Now, E.F. is how old, Lauren?
Lauren Matthias [00:54:00] 12. 11 to 12.
John Dehlin [00:54:01] During this time, E.F. or R.F.
Lauren Matthias [00:54:03] oh, so E.F. excuse me, 10.
John Dehlin [00:54:05] Okay. E.F. is 10. This is a 10 year old girl. Right. She's get. She's receiving the same treatment, including being told that she was evil and possessed and that these punishments were necessary for repentance. And then finally for count four, the defendant's actions caused two or more physical injuries to E.F. she was forced to work outside in the heat, barefoot. This 10 year old girl, she was forced to run barefoot on dirt roads for an extended period of time, which of course reminds us of Jesse Hildebrand's. Jesse Hildebrand's treatment. And her feet were repeatedly injured by. And she was sunburned. And on August 30, there were wounds, scabs, blisters and sloughing skin. So those are the very serious counts that I guess would just put Ruby into a corner to have to take a guilty plea.
Guest 2 [00:55:03] Right.
John Dehlin [00:55:03] I mean, it seems like that evidence is irrefutable.
Lauren Matthias [00:55:07] Yeah, it's horrendous. And I want to remind people too what the probable cause said about E.F. excuse me, I just had someone enter. If you hear coffee, that's okay. I want to remind you of what the probable cause said about EF and that is that ef, it took four hours to convince this little girl to, to get help, to allow people that were there to help her so to get medical care for her because she had these issues. Like it was clear the abuse when they entered the home, when they got there, it took them four hours to convince her to get medical help. That's how indoctrinated she was, that she was bad and that she was evil and that it really worked.
John Dehlin [00:55:49] Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And and we're, we're pro child, pro family. So if there's coughing or any sort of needs on that end, we're in full support.
Lauren Matthias [00:56:01] My husband was watching him. Now I'm like, where's he?
John Dehlin [00:56:03] Don't worry about it. We, we love it. It adds, it adds character and flavor and reality. Please don't even worry for a second. Okay. So there's a section about waiving constitutional rights, basically saying I'm waiving my right to a trial, I think. And then there's this. There's the consequences of entering a guilty plea, which for me, the important part on this page was the consecutive versus concurrent terms that these aren't. These, these, these sentences aren't going to
Plea Deal for Ruby
Guest 2 [00:56:37] be,
John Dehlin [00:56:40] you know, held out, whatever the word is, concurrently, that they're going to be consecutive, which again leads to the four, I don't know, to 60 year potential sentences. I think, I think that's important or interesting. There's another section about firearms restrictions, you know, and then I think for me, it, I don't know why, but when I'm looking at the bottom of this page where the defendant cites it and there you can see Ruby writing in her age of 41 years and that she attended school through the 12th grade. For me, that's very, that's a very Mormon. Lots of Mormon wives would, would be signing something to that effect. And then you see her signature there on December 18, 2023. Ruby, Frankie, their signature, along with the attorney, Lamar J. Winward. And then of course, there is the, the signature of the district court judge, John J. Warren Walton. Anything else you want to say about, about that plea deal, Lauren?
Lauren Matthias [00:57:52] No, I think it's fairly to the point. I think it's. We can see now why she pleaded guilty. I can't imagine standing trial for that. And, you know, she, she did this to her own children. I think it'll be interesting now to see what Jody does, how this is going to change Jody's defense. Because as we know from everyone that knows Jody, she's extremely manipulative. She likes to blame other people or point the fingers at others. With Ruby now saying that she will testify against it wasn't just her therapist, but her business partner at the end here, I think it'll be interesting to see if Jody decides to take a plea deal or how she might change her defense now.
Do You Think the Jody and Ruby Case Could Have Ended in
John Dehlin [00:58:36] So do you, do you think that these kids were on the road to a Lori, Lori Valo, Chad Dabel type of ending? If, if this courageous kid, RF hadn't have escaped what I know we're speculating here, but, but no one knows the, the Valo Debel case, I think more than you, Lauren. So I think I'm, I'm asking an authority to speculate.
Lauren Matthias [00:59:02] Yes, I do, I do think that this could have ended in death. Absolutely. I think that RF and EF are lucky to be alive. And I, I don't know how much longer they could have taken this before death. I mean, there were so many ways. The, the holding back oxygen, putting their head in water, not feeding them, not drinking them. Yes. I believe that this would have ended very, very tragically. I think it would have gone the way of Lori Valow and Chad Dabel. And I think that this dynamic is a really interesting dynamic to look at, this Jody and Ruby dynamic because it is very reminiscent of a Lori Chad dynamic. It hasn't been so clear cut with Lori and Chad. And Lori has remained steadfast in defending and remaining loyal to Chad, but Chad is now throwing her under the bus. And, you know, Lori's convicted and she's about to stand trial in Arizona. But I think that this is a really interesting case when you look at this, the Chad and Lori Daybell case that continues in both cases. I just want to say both cases have to do with thinking children are evil, that they're dark, that they're possessed, that they need to be improved or, or killed. And both of them start with some LDS theology, I want to point out. And both of them have to do with some of these similar doomsday groups and conferences that meet. And I want to point that out.
John Dehlin [01:00:33] Yeah, like, like we've covered this on both our channels, Hidden true crime and Mormon stories. But I don't think it's gratuitous sort of parallelism to note that, that, you know, the, the Jody and Ruby and Chad, you know, Chad Dabo and Lori Vallow and Tim Ballard. What do they all share? They all love Visions of Glory, the book, the, the Near Death Experience, apocalyptic Mormon prepper book. They all know Tom Harrison, anything to do with this violence per se. But there's some sort of prepper millennialist end times conservative Mormonism that, you know, began with people like Avram Gileadi, but then it was extended with people like Tom Harrison and the Visions of Glory book and then these prepper conferences. There's something about this brand of Mormonism that includes Visions of Glory, Tom Harrison, these prepper conferences, end times conservative Mormonism that appears to be breeding this sort of. Also the belief in demons and demonic possession. There's something about all of this that seems to be breeding extremism and violence. And if we don't, if the Mormon Church, if the LDS Church doesn't pay attention to it, if we, the media don't call it out, it's going to keep happening. You know when, when, when Court TV or, or law and crime or whoever. When they want you and occasionally me to come on and talk about this stuff. All they want to talk about is the gore. All they want to talk about is the violence and the crime. They don't ever want to talk about the, the, the religious and the spiritual and the cultural context that appears to be informing this, this continual outburst of violence and extreme behavior. Do you disagree? Do you agree? Are you frustrated?
Lauren Matthias [01:02:44] If you agree, I want to thank you. No, I want to thank you for that, that rant you just went on. If I can call it a rant, I don't know what it was, but yes, no, Hallelujah. Amen. Absolutely. To make your point. Blaze Thibodeau, do you know what's going on tomorrow? Blaze Thibodeau's uncle and his mother have just been extradited back to Arizona. Blaze Thibodeau. You covered Blaze, as did I on our channel. Doomsday beliefs, Visions of glory. Same, same. They took this 16 year old boy from his home in Arizona. They were arrested. Spring and Brookhale were arrested on the Alaskan Canadian border. Well just last week they were extradited back to Arizona. And tomorrow is, or not tomorrow, Thursday is Brooke Hale's preliminary hearing will where we will learn more. Both of them have five hundred thousand dollar bonds. This is continuing in Arizona. Why did Arizona act so swiftly to arrest them both? Because the Lori Valo case and Chad Daybell case was also theirs and children died. It is going on again and again and again and it all has the same background and all of the factors mentioned and it's important to note.
John Dehlin [01:03:54] Yeah we gotta, we gotta call it out so that it can be addressed and fixed not to hate on religion or spirituality. I have so much love for the Mormon Church, for the Mormon people, for Christianity, for religion and beliefs everywhere. I just Cult like behavior and, or damaging extremist fundamentalist beliefs need to be constantly weeded out to keep, to keep religions and all belief systems healthy. Really quick Lauren. You've been so generous with your time. I have a quick question. When I think about like you know, racketeering or like mob bosses or plea deals when it comes to like organized crime for example, I often think about one per, you know, the smaller Fish taking a plea deal so that they can fry the big fish. And in this case, you know, you would think that, that Ruby, Frankie, potentially is taking this plea deal to fry the big fish. Jody Hildebrand, except for the fact that she's going to serve four to 60 years, that doesn't feel like much of a, of a bargain. What I would expect is, is if she was willing to cooperate to fry the big fish, that she would go walking. So is there any chance that her sentencing could be dramatically reduced to like four years or maybe even less than four years? Because to me, I, I, this doesn't seem to have the math of the small fish getting away to fry the big fish. Does that make sense?
Ruby Frankie's Criminal Justice Plea Deal
Lauren Matthias [01:05:29] Yeah, it makes sense. What you're saying. Well, first off, you know, learning a little bit more. I think that's why they actually, we learned a little bit more of the detail because I don't know if anyone could just walk away with the details. We just read. I don't. And I think that Ruby was probably told that, you know, I think also in order for her to have a good sentencing, this, the judge really has Ruby's future in his hands. This is, this is all the judge. There's no jury here. It's the judge. Yeah, it's the judge on February 20th of the sentencing. Right. So, so Ruby being contrite and saying, I did this and I'm so sorry is only going to help her cause when it comes to being in front of the judge too. Because the judge, as you pointed out, we could have a minimum of four years, we could have a maximum of 60. Her future is in the hands of this judge. And I think that pleading guilty is going to show that she's changed. And, and recidivism is a big part of sentencing. Recidivism with psychologists, meaning risk assessment. So, and let's compare these two mothers, Lori Valo and Ruby Frankie. Risk assessment in the courts. Lori Valo still doesn't think she's done anything wrong. Claims her children love her and she still believes that she's a goddess and that Chad's, you know, and her are gonna like, you know, be the, the head of the 144, 000, and she's gonna miraculously, you know, you know, run the church of the firstborn. That is, that is a high risk person. That is someone that should not be let out of prison. Which, you know, Judge Boyce in her case said, yeah, you're, you're going to spend the rest of your life in prison. Like you are a risk to the community with Ruby Frankie. If she's saying I have reset my moral compass, I admit I did these things. I admit I am. My mind is healthy. I realize I want to make amends. That's going to help in the sentencing process because they'll also probably have a psychologist come in and do what is called a risk assessment. Recidivism. How is, is she likely to reoffend or can she be put back into the community safely? A lot of this isn't about justice and punishment. A lot of it is about community and safety and those will play a part in her sentencing. So it's only doing her a favor right now by being contrite and sorry and apologetic and acknowledging what she did.
Lauren on Ruby's Sentencing
John Dehlin [01:08:03] Is there any scenario you can imagine, Lauren, and I know you're not an attorney. Is there any. Or judge. Is there any scenario where you think Ruby, Frank, Frankie could actually get less than four years? Or is, or do you. Do you believe four years is the absolute minimum?
Lauren Matthias [01:08:18] That is a question for an attorney. Where's rfm? Okay, I, I think the minimum is four years. Well, let me just say this. Her, her plea deal, you know, we, we skipped over this part, but it essentially says that she acknowledges she's going to serve jail time or, or prison time. She, she, she admits to that in the plea deal, that she understands that by making this plea that she's going to serve time behind bars. So I think that that's being acknowledged by Ruby. I think there's going to be time. I also cutting her walk because also this is a high profile case and we're learning what her children went through. And then let's get into not just recidivism, but justice, justice for these children. That, that is going to play a part in this sentencing as well. So I think that. So, yeah, this is Lauren talking. This is Lauren assessing. I think she will certainly serve time. It'll be at least four years. This is me, this is all my speculation. I think it'll probably be more. I don't know if it'll be 60. And that's going to depend, I think, on her psychological assessments. So, so both justice for the victims as well as community risk are both going to play a part in this. But I, I can't imagine it's just somebody that attends trials and has reported on these before that she would get less than four years. But I, I don't know if that's possible because I'm not in the attorney.
John Dehlin [01:09:39] Absolutely. Real quick, a huge thanks to Christina Ward for the Super Chat donation. Huge thanks to all the Mormon Stories donors that donate to make this podcast possible. Please do me a quick favor. Really quick. And then we've got like five minutes more. Please subscribe to Mormon stories podcast YouTube channel. Please go subscribe to hidden true crime YouTube channel. And also please, please become a supporter of Hidden True Crime. And what Lauren and John are doing. I. I think they have a. I know they have a Patreon page. Really quickly, Lauren, just in 10 seconds. If people want to support the work you do, how. How do they pay and support you?
Please Become a Supporter of Hidden True Crime
Lauren Matthias [01:10:18] Thank you. Thank you for asking. Yes. Subscribing to our YouTube channel or. Or heading to our podcast. We also have a podcast. And then the way you can support us is right now through patreon, patreon.com hidden true crime. It is a place where we give back. You not only support us, but we have, I think over a hundred now bonus episodes, like episodes that are Patreon only that you'll never hear on our YouTube channel or podcast. And it is just such a good support and allows us to continue our work. My husband is a licensed psychologist, and together a forensic psychologist, criminal psychologist. And I was a former TV reporter. So together we run Hidden True Crime and support means the world to us. So thank you.
John Dehlin [01:11:01] Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. Okay, really quickly. I know you're not a fortune teller. I know you're not a medium, and you don't have access to Nephi to predict the future. If you had to predict is Jody Hildebrandt. Do you think Jody Hildebrandt's likely to enter into a guilty plea? Do you think she's going to maintain her innocence and take this all the way to trial? And do you think. Do you suspect that she's likely to have a more severe verdict or punishment than Ruby if, you know, pulling out your secular crystal ball?
Do You Think Jody Hildebrandt Will Take a Ple
Lauren Matthias [01:11:38] I could talk about this forever. Yeah, this is. This is pure crystal ball. I would like to try to summon. Is it Nephi? I'm trying to think who I've got.
John Dehlin [01:11:48] Wouldn't be nice if there's a female prophet you could summon that wasn't a guy.
Lauren Matthias [01:11:52] Yeah, right. I know. I was. That's something. I'm like, should I get my great grandmother?
Guest 2 [01:11:56] I don't know.
Lauren Matthias [01:11:56] Like, who should I grab right now? No, I. Oh, gosh. Okay. This is like. This is total Lauren right here. This is putting aside every expert hat I have and just, like, talking to you as a friend. I think that Ruby, or, excuse me, Jody, will definitely get A bigger punishment. I do think that investigators are realizing that Jody's the bigger fish for sure, and I think they want her to fry. I think that they've had enough people come forward and enough witnesses come forward and enough stories from the past to realize, okay, we've got to take care of Jody Hildebrandt. But do I think she's going to take a plea deal? I don't know, because who she is, you know, we, we heard, we heard Jesse say that, that she, that she may have been diagnosed with psychopathy, that, you know, psychopaths don't take plea deals very often. Psychopaths want to say, yeah, I, I've got this. I'm gonna pull the wool over your eyes. I'm right, you're wrong. Watch this, you know, hold my beer. Watch me take this jury and, and twist this. I think that a psychopath might want a jury trial to say, look, I'm going to show them that I am innocent and, and this was not my fault, and I misunderstood. So, so I think I, I, I, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't take a peo. If she does take a plea deal, she knows, she knows that she's in trouble. Like, she, if she takes a plea deal, she knows there's no way out. But I also don't see someone like her and her personality type doing that easily. I think she might want to go to trial. So, but, but, but I'll say this side, too. Knowing that Ruby's going to testify against her and knowing the dirt that Ruby has on Jody, that might scare her into taking a plea deal. So.
Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias and John Matthias
John Dehlin [01:13:50] All right, well, Lauren Matthias, you And your husband, Dr. John, are a treasure to both our community and to this country. And I, I don't think I'm being exaggerating when I say that you're doing such important work. Please, before we conclude, any final comments and then any, please make any shout outs, call outs requests so that you guys can become fabulously successful and independently wealthy. Make any final, please.
Lauren Matthias [01:14:19] Thank you, John.
Guest [01:14:20] Thank you.
Lauren Matthias [01:14:23] Have me as a guest again. We're honored, we're honored to be, to be a part of the Mormon Stories community. And I just want to say thank you. Yes, please. We have a playlist on our YouTube channel as well as again on our podcast of Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt. And I think a couple of the interesting things we did, My husband, John Matthias did a deep dive into Jody Hildebrandt. That's one of our longer forms. We do these hidden hours each Each weekend where they're live with my husband who's a psychologist. And we covered Jody in depth and that's where we, we watched and picked apart this, this speech that she gave at the Eternal Core conference and as well as some other things we learned about her. So that might be of interest to people. And Ruby we have not deep dived into yet, but we're going to. So we're going to take a deep dive into Ruby, Frankie very soon. So again, subscribing and hitting notifications and supporting our work, what we try to do over at Hidden True Crime, if to understand is not just exploit true crime. That's not what we're about. This is what we did as a profession before we started our podcast. This is who we are. Me as a journalist and TV reporter. My husband is a criminal psychologist. And we want to make a difference, truly. We, we actually want to, to dig into the hidden motives, hence the name Hidden True Crime, to understand how crimes are happen, to really get to the root of the issue. What happened in a perpetrator's childhood that created this, how as you pointed out, John, you said, I can't fathom that people do this. Well, well, neither can we. But as, as long as humans have existed, so is crime. And so we should try to understand it. We should try to figure out what is going on. Because if we do that and we look at both the victims and the perpetrators, perhaps we can see the warning signs or we can stop things like this from happening again or do something healthy for ourselves and our own families and raising our own children. So that's what Hidden True Crime is about.
John Dehlin [01:16:32] And you guys, you guys cover much more than eight passengers in Ruby, Frankie and Lori Valo and Chad Daybell. You cover all the good stuff, right?
Lauren Matthias [01:16:41] Yes, yes, we cover, we cover worldwide crimes. We recently covered the Australian mushroom poisoning, we've covered Lucy Letby in the UK. We've had the BBC over at our house actually will be on the BBC in 2024. So we cover all crimes. It just so happens, you know, John, you and I talk about this, that there have been a lot of LDS criminals in 2023. I don't know if that trend's going to continue in 2024. But, but because of that and because of our in depth investigation the past four years, we started with the Day Bell case, the Lori Ballow and Chad Dall case. All these crimes that continue occurring, we see connections with them and again, we're hidden, we're hidden True Crime. We look at the hidden Motives not just as you say, the gore and the can you believe this? And the shock value. So naturally we start covering these other crimes. We cover Blaze Thibodeau, we cover Ruby Frankie. We cover, you know, on and on these, these cases that really matter to the LDS community and we cover them in depth. I attended, you know, a firm expo to understand what the Daybell, you know, even believed. So, so yes, we have been covering a lot of LDs centered crimes because we see connections and, and this coming year, 2024 is, is going to be another big year with that because you have Chad Dabel's trial that's coming up that will be televised, that, that I'll be attending. We have Lori Valo in Arizona will be tried for the murder of her husband, Charles Valo. She's been convicted of killing her children, but not her husband in Arizona. There is more coming. So yes, we, we cover crimes that we feel are important from all over the world. This most recent Saturday we actually covered the UNLV shooting and, and the, the suspect that was killed by police. So, but, but we continue to continue to cover these LDS centered crimes and continue to want to work with you in bringing awareness to what is going on in the connections here.
John Dehlin [01:18:51] Brilliant. All right, well thank you so much. I'll just add really quickly. Lauren, that was amazing. John's amazing. Hidden true crime is amazing. I'll just add the Mormon Church could have a role because this is Mormon stories. I'm going to end this way. Lauren and I and everyone, we want to see only the best for the Mormon Church and the Mormon people. This can be helped if the Mormon Church were to find a way to denounce or correct apocalyptic end times, Mormon preparism, visions of glory and all of this fundamentalist Mormon apocalyptic preparism that.
Mormon Stories: A Year in Review
Lauren Matthias [01:19:35] Throw in Tim Ballard too.
John Dehlin [01:19:36] Throw in Tim Ballard, Operation Underground Railroad. If the Mormon Church could find a way to clean up this mess in just Utah, Idaho and Arizona for starters, I think it would have a lot less, a lot fewer PR disasters, you know, in the headlines for the Mormon Church. But more importantly, it could save lives and it could save the, the pain and the suffering of so many members and, and of their families. Really quickly, I want to thank Carly for her donation, Laura for her support, Liz for her support. And I'll add what, what allows Mormon stories to continue is the, the people who become monthly donors. Going to mormonstories.org clicking on the Donate button, becoming a monthly donor. That's what supports my staff, all these resources and this channel and everything we're able to do so. Thanks to everyone who supports us. If you want to become a supporter of Mormon Stories podcast, that's how you do it. MormonStories.org and click on the donate button. Thanks to everyone who joined us in the live chat today. Thanks to Julia for her help with the time codes and the shorts and Maven for the post production, Gerardo for the thumbnails and for the idea for this episode for the the Mormon Story. The Open Stories foundation board of directors that keeps us all going, Brooklyn for the editing. So many people on this end make all this possible. Is this going to be our last episode of the year of 2020? It's been a good year, Lauren. It's been a good year with Mormon Stories and Hidden True Crime.
Lauren Matthias [01:21:17] It has. It has been a good. It has been a good year for us. A lot of collaborating. You know, there's a part of me that says, yeah, let's hope for more collaborating 2024. And at the same time I'm like, well, I don't know if that's a good thing because of what I cover. But no, we will be, because again, the Day Bell case is continuing. Lace Thibodeau's continues. So there will certainly be a lot of collaborating in 2024.
John Dehlin [01:21:37] All right, all the best, Lauren, to you and John and your wonderful family into your podcast.
Lauren Matthias [01:21:42] Thank you so much, John.
John Dehlin [01:21:44] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories and on Hidden True Crime. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
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We discuss Ruby Franke’s recent guilty plea for abusing her children and read excerpts from the plea deal, which contains disturbing details of kicking, choking, and even holding them underwater. Franke admits her actions were “morally and legally wrong.”
The hosts analyze how Franke justified the @buse by claiming God wanted her to discipline her son. They discuss how some Mormon teachings can distort views on “morality” and discipline.
The hosts argue the Mormon church needs to take some responsibility by re-examining certain teachings that may enable abuse by followers. They believe the church can help prevent similar tragedies through reforms and speaking out against domestic violence.
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Show Notes:
- Donate to Mormon Stories
- Donate to Hidden True Crime on Patreon
- Hidden True Crime Podcast
- Hidden True Crime Website
- Hidden True Crime YouTube
- Netflix – Lori Vallow Documentary “Sins of our Mother”
- Eternal Core
- Hidden True Crime – TikTok
- Hidden True Crime – Adam Paul Steed Part 1
- Hidden True Crime – Adam Paul Steed Part 2
- 8 Passengers Case – YouTube Channel
Mormon Stories Related
- 1825: Visions of Glory, Thom Harrison, and Mormon Neo-Fundamentalism
- 1808: Niece of 8 Passengers’ Mormon “Therapist” Jodi Hildebrandt Speaks Out – Jessi Hildebrandt
- 1805: 8 Passengers Ruby Franke and “Therapist” Jodi Hildebrandt Arrested – The Mormon Angle
- 1809: 8 Passengers Mormon Therapist Jodi Hildebrandt Destroyed My Life – Adam Paul Steed
- 1764: Lori Vallow Guilty Verdict – w/ Cousin Megan Conner
One Response
Please…to me..even if she does provide testimony against Jodi H….Ruby MUST serve a bunch of time behind bars! Who put the honey & pepper on his wounds? Who hogtied him, put the duct tape on? Who refused him food and water? Who called him names and worse? Even if she didn’t participate in every injury..she was there and she is his MOTHER! Being remorseful and sad now is not an excuse. Many criminals are sorry afterwards..many have been duped or under the influence of other people in their lives. The psychological wounds of the mother’s complicity warrants many many years behind bars!!