Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is May 10, 2024, and we are super excited to be. I shouldn't say super excited. I get in trouble. People are like, this stuff's so dark. Why, you should never say excellent, that's awesome, or super excited. So we are somber and we are contemplative as we bring to you another in our series of discussions about Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby Franke, and in this case, Kevin Franke. Many of you will know if you've been following kind of global news or Mormon news, that once upon a time, there was a family, a Mormon family called the Frankie Family. And there was a mom named Ruby Frankie, who started a YouTube channel called 8Passengers that at its peak had, I think, over 2 million subscribers. She was married to a BYU professor named Kevin Frank Frankie. They had six kids. And after a couple years of running that very successful YouTube channel, Ruby started getting into trouble with her viewers and listeners, but also with her family and neighbors, people questioning her treatment of her children. Parallel to that, there was once upon a time a therapist named Jody Hildebrandt, who was one of the Mormon Church's most recommended therapists. And in Utah, she ran LifeStar Utah County. She set herself up as an expert on curing masturbation and pornography addiction within a Mormon context. And once, you know, her license was suspended. Thanks to the courage of Adam Paul Steed and others, which we've talked about on Mormon Stories Podcast, she reinvented herself with a set of offerings, online offerings, but also workshops and retreats and coaching and therapy groups called Connections with the An Ex. And that's when the real horrors started to begin. And so you will all know that at some point late late August of 2023, Jody and Ruby are arrested thanks to her. Ruby's, I think, her youngest son, who was found emaciated, dehydrated, and with severe signs of torture and abuse. And that landed Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt in jail. They have now pled guilty to multiple counts of child abuse. And that's kind of where things stand. They have not been sentenced, but several months ago, the police department released several pieces of evidence. We've covered this a lot on Mormon Stories podcast, including a diary that Ruby Franke kept, which is really disturbing. We've covered that. They also released released photos of the children and the evidence of abuse and torture. And then one of the really interesting things that they released were at least two police interviews with Kevin Frankie Ruby's husband. And this is not new news for those who've been following these cases really closely. But what I feel is that what really hasn't been shared is. Is kind of the Mormon reaction to Kevin Franke's police interview. And specifically, it's his second police interview that was particularly telling, specifically around Jodi Hildebrandt and her tactics, both in violating so many codes of ethics with her clients, but also, you know, how she ends up kicking Kevin out of the house and not only moving in with Ruby, but, like, sleeping in the same bed with Ruby. And it's this interview where Kevin sort of relates all of that, but also talks about things like demonic possession and priesthood, blessings, et cetera. So I just wanted the Internet, the world, to have a record of Mormons responding to not just Kevin Franke's second police interview, but also to Jodi Hildebrandt and her techniques from the angle of both Mormonism, what is and what is not Mormon doctrine, but also maybe from sort of a mental health perspective of what's ethical and what's not ethical. So we have two really cool and special guests back on Mormon Stories. Both of them have been on before. The first special guest we have today back is Janae Thompson. Hey, Janae.

Janae Thompson [00:04:52] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] Welcome back.

Janae Thompson [00:04:53] Thank you. So fun to be here.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:04:55] Even though it's a somber topic.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] It is. It is not. Super excited, right?

Janae Thompson [00:04:59] No.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:05:00] But it's always fun to be in the studio with you guys.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Likewise. So, Janae, why don't you tell people what our interview with you was about and then tell them why you have a connection to the story.

Natasha Helfer [00:05:12] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:05:13] Okay. So our original Mormon Stories interview that I did with John several months ago, I just kind of told my story around becoming a widow within the Mormon Church. My husband passed away in 2019, left me with four little kids, and it was really challenging. And the whole premise of what brought me to questioning where I was at with the faith and in my situation is, you know, all the things that are promised within a religion that, you know, when times get hard, your faith should get you through. Those things were not the case for me. And so it caused me to really question what do I really believe? And in relation to how life has handed me these things that, of course, I never expected and you don't when it comes to, you know, the loss of a loved one and things like that, they're really challenging and difficult. You don't plan for those things. And I was always taught within the religion that, you know, when life hands you Those things your faith will get you through. And my faith was certainly not getting me through. In fact, it was felt more harmful than good. You know, when people would say, oh, isn't it such a blessing that families are forever? And I would just kind of look at them and I would say, my family is not together right now, and is this not part of forever? And so that really caused me to start to question, what do I really believe? And it just kind of opened up the floodgates of questions from there. And so we went into a deep dive on that previously. And then fast forward to about a year after my husband passed away. I was super struggling being a single mom. I had a really hard time transitioning into single motherhood. And I had a roommate at my yoga teacher training who was working with Jodi, and she had been talking about all the things that she was learning. And when I first met Hirsch, I was actually still married at the time. My husband hadn't passed away. And she was talking about all these things that this new teacher of hers was teaching and how helpful it had been in her marriage and things like that. And I kind of listened with a little bit of curiosity, but not too much. It sounded a little odd to me. And then after my husband passed away and I was really just struggling, I kept getting these recommendations. Jodi can help with that. And, you know, Jody's really good. She teaches different things, and, you know, it might be really helpful for you. And so after so many recommendations, and especially that she endorsed by the church, I felt like, you know, I'm. I think I'm going to start working with this person. And so I did. And I worked with her one on one for about a year. I did her women's group for probably around six to nine months. Somewhere in that time frame, I did several retreats with her, one out in St. George area where. Where Kevin and Ruby were. And of course, because we also, my husband was big in the YouTube world, we kind of ran around in some of the similar YouTube circles that they did. And so we had some interesting interactions with them throughout the years that all kind of culminated in just my shock and surprise, and also not shock and surprise when all of this happened.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Oh, wow. So you knew Kevin and Ruby, or at least you had interacted with them?

Janae Thompson [00:08:30] Yeah, and I mean, they sat in my kitchen in my new house right before I started working with Jodi, talking about this new channel that they were starting and how it was for moms and being in truth. And we had a mutual manager within the. You Know, the realm of YouTube brands and all that kind of stuff that had also recommended, you know, check out what Ruby's doing. It might really help you. And I thought, okay, you know, these are all people I trust that are recommending this particular thing. And I had several. Not just one, not just two. Like, several people recommend Ruby what she was teaching, Jody what she was teaching.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Wow. And would it be putting on the spot to ask around what month and year this would have been?

Janae Thompson [00:09:13] So let me look back in the files of my brain. This would have been in 2000. I want to say 21.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:26] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:09:26] And it was before it got to the depths of oddness that I started seeing, because I pulled out of the group once I started getting a lot of just feelings of something being off over and over and over again. I pulled out of all the teachings, all the group, everything. And that was probably in 2022.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] And Covid was happening before then.

Guest 3 [00:09:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] So this would have been during COVID

Janae Thompson [00:09:52] Yes, during COVID Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:09:53] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:09:54] Yeah. And I first learned of Jody Hildebrandt right before COVID happened in this. When I met Gerardo, I also met a victim of Jody's in this studio room. And that was right before COVID happened. So we're talking 2021. 2022.

Janae Thompson [00:10:11] Yeah, it was around. Yeah, I think it was around 2021, because it wasn't right when Covid hit, but it was during the aftermath, the kind of the darkness that ensued after everybody was stuck in their houses and that kind of. That period.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:10:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Yeah. So we're so excited that, you know, we've had two men come who worked with Jodi on some level, but we haven't had a woman and your ability to talk also, no one that really knew Ruby and Kevin. So for all those reasons, thank you so much for coming back.

Janae Thompson [00:10:44] Yeah, you're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] On the podcast. Okay. And then if that weren't enough awesomeness right there, we also have back on Mormon stories again, Natasha Helfer. Hey, Natasha.

Mormon Sexual Shame and Problematic Teachings

Natasha Helfer [00:10:55] Hi, John. So glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] Now we've had you also on Natasha many, many times. Natasha is kind of Mormonism's, I would say, one of the top, if not the top, marriage and family therapists and sex therapists for Mormons and progressive Mormons and ex Mormons. Natasha had the distinction of being. We like to call it sex communicated. Is that right?

Natasha Helfer [00:11:16] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] The church got uncomfortable with all the truth that she was sharing, and they just had to, you know, they have to excommunicate truth tellers. Is that right?

Natasha Helfer [00:11:25] Yes, that is. It's actually in their definition of apostasy. So there you go.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] But. But Natasha is just the go to person. One of my top go to people whenever a couple's struggling or someone needs some sex therapy or just stuff. So she runs a group. Tell us about your group.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:42] The. Well, I run lots of groups, but I do run a faith transition support group, and we just have a lot of different groups.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] I just mean your company.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:50] Oh, Symmetry. Yeah, Symmetry Counseling. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Okay. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:55] Yes, I have several providers work under me, train under me, and are. Yeah, we specialize in this intersection of mental health and religious journeys and sexuality.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Okay. And so the website for that is simcounseling.com. okay. S Y M counseling. But you've got a new URL, which is. That's the new one, which. Oh, okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] I thought it was get religion therapy or something.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:19] Oh, well, that's. That's a different thing if we want to talk about that because you're going to teach with me next week. So I'm also. I've got a platform where I offer CES for therapists in regards to working with religious folks and everything from orthodox believers to, you know, people who are leaving organized religion. And not just Mormonism, like religion in general. So that platform is called learnreligiontherapy.com and John and I will be doing a three hour CE next Saturday morning live from 9 to noon mountain time.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] So that's May 18th, is that right?

Natasha Helfer [00:12:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] And so if you're a therapist or an aspiring therapist or coach, and you want to hear from me and Natasha about our experience dealing with faith transitions.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Yeah. You can get some CE credit.

Janae Thompson [00:13:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Yeah. Okay. We'll talk about that at the end as well.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:11] Sounds good.

John Dehlin [00:13:11] Anyway, so, Natasha, you, I'm sure, started hearing about Jody and her techniques probably pretty early on, decades ago.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:20] Well, a decade at least. Ago. Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] And you wanted to tell us a little bit about the rumblings you would hear about Jodi.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:27] Yeah. Lots of concerns about her practice and what we were hearing both from, you know, previous clients who then would come to see me or other colleagues of mine. And just what we were hearing as far as some of the protocols that were in place for people who were struggling with. Yeah. Like unwanted pornography use or seeing those kinds of behaviors as betrayals in a marital relationship. And hearing things like, okay, wives are. Every time there's a quote unquote relapse, there's all this addiction language that's being used, which already is problematic.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] From a professional standpoint, Correct?

Natasha Helfer [00:14:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] Because the mental health profession wouldn't consider masturbating once a week or once a month as an addiction, correct?

Natasha Helfer [00:14:15] Well, that's correct. And yet you have a lot of therapists who. Who are kind of intertwined in this because of their own religious biases and their own religious backgrounds. So this gets kind of tricky because it's not like only LDS therapists struggle with this, and not all LDS therapists behave in this way. But this is something that we kind of currently see as a conflict within the mental health community is this idea of, are we going to legitimize the language? Sex addiction. Right. Pornography addiction. And there are many therapists who legitimize it and many who do not. The association for Sexual Educators, Counselors and Therapists, which is asect, has a position statement out that very clearly defines this as problematic, that this is not how we should be treating these kinds of issues. And there is nothing in the diagnostic codes that says, okay, we can diagnose you with porn addiction. The ICD 11 now did come out with obsessive compulsive or compulsive sexual disorder, which is fairly new. And that also has some critiques around it. And it's again, interesting to me because we don't. We already have ocd, we have compulsive behavior as a diagnosis, and sometimes sexuality can become compulsive, just like pretty much every human behavior. So it's always interesting to me when there's a special, super special diagnosis for something sexual, which speaks to the taboos that still very much exist in our overall culture.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] But we just had Emily Nagoski on, and she confirmed that within the mental health profession, masturbation is seen as normal and healthy. Correct?

Natasha Helfer [00:16:05] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:06] Overall.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] So, yes. So basically pathologizing it. Not just pathologizing it, but then shrouding it in both addiction language, but also like 12 step programs where you talk about yourself in terms of addiction, being an addict, and sobriety. And that's what Jody. I mean, Jody started out in substance addiction, you know, residential treatment, and then moved into this profession.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] And that's no bueno, correct?

Natasha Helfer [00:16:38] No. There's no evidence based, you know, research that shows that any of these approaches are effective. And it really is considered unethical by many standards. But I guess where I'm frustrated is, like, just in the last month, I've spoken with two people who are studying in master's degree program where they are talking about sex addiction. And I'm like, wow, so that's why I'm hesitant. Like, I'm, you know, I'm saying that there's a lot of misinformation even out there for therapists in regards to how they're being trained and who's training them and under what programs. I'm guessing, you know, a program out of, like, a religiously based university would. Would probably treat some of these things differently than a program that isn't, for example.

John Dehlin [00:17:27] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so. So that's some context for what we're going to be talking about today. Again, I'm gonna. I'm gonna share my two cents. I do have a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology, and I spent six years treating Utah State University students and others who reported sexual addiction as well. So I do have clinical experience in this regard. But I also like to bring in the Mormon angle. Janae's going to talk about her experience with Jodi and the Mormon angle to the extent she wants, and then Natasha's going to also bring her mental health expertise. And we're going to just play Kevin Franke's interview and his second police interview. Our best research shows that the second police interview, Ruby and Jody were arrested around August 30th or 31st, 2023, in Ivins, Utah, which is near St. George. Kevin had one first police interview right around that time, and then a week or two later, Sometime in the September 2023 timeframe, he did a more extended interview. And literally, what we're gonna do is just play it and Janay and Natasha, where something really hits you that you want to comment on, we'll pause it, we'll comment on it, and then we'll go back and play it. Is that okay? And the only other thing I'll say is Margi was like, hey, man, you're not going after Kevin, are you? And Kevin's not in jail. You know, I have friends who are friends with Kevin, and Margi was like, you're not going after Kevin, are you? And no, we're not going after Kevin. With this episode, we believe in addressing systems more than people. And even with. With Jody and Ruby, our point isn't to say how horrible they are or aren't. It's just to build awareness around what's healthy, ethical religion and unhealthy, unethical religion. What's healthy, mental health services and what's unethical, unhealthy mental health services. And unfortunately, Jody and Ruby are going to help us illustrate that. But Kevin, if you're out there, if you're watching, we wish you the best, and we're not coming after you, Jenna. Anything else you want to add?

Janae Thompson [00:19:39] Just that throughout these experiences, one of the things that's most important to me is learning from the experiences that I have. So it's not about attacking somebody or what they've been through, but it's more kind of like what you just said. I'm really committed to myself as a lifelong learner, and when I have experiences that are outside the realm of, you know, this is really what I want and what I'm committed to and how I want to live my life, like, you know, working with Jodi and some of the things that she taught, I like to take a step back and analyze that and say, okay, where did I go wrong here and within our humanity as people trying to become better in, you know, every experience we have. That's kind of my motivation in this, in that, you know, I'm not a perfect person in how I choose to learn. And, you know, all the decisions I've made have not been 100% what I would do now, but learning from them. I feel like we can all learn together when, you know, big things like this happen that just kind of

Natasha Helfer [00:20:42] blow

Janae Thompson [00:20:42] our minds as far as, like, how did it get to this point? Because in some aspects, I think had I not really been listening to my own inner guidance, I could have gotten to that point myself, where I just was entrenched in these beliefs that are horrific, you know, and so in that I see myself as potentially, that could have happened to me, and I'm so grateful that it didn't. And how can we learn together to be better at, you know, listening to the inner guidance that we have and really, like, putting your foot down and saying, no, there's something really off here, and this is wrong, instead of just going with the flow.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] I love it.

Janae Thompson [00:21:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:19] I love good intentions. And, Natasha, I'm sure you just want better, more ethical mental health services to Mormons and others, right?

Natasha Helfer [00:21:27] Yes, absolutely. And also, I think good parenting information. So I guess I am noticing a reaction. As you said, we're not going after Kevin. I wouldn't necessarily use those words, but I do not see him as blameless in this situation by any means. And I do think that we're using specific people maybe to point out accountability. And I have been held very accountable and very monitored by both professional and personal things in my life. And that accountability, when it's been pointed in my direction, albeit uncomfortable, has been a huge part of my growth experience. And so I just want to be clear that this is I'm not seeing as like the two people who are in jail are the only people who participated in problematic behavior, especially towards children and acting as parents.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:20] And I would include Kevin in that and I do not know him personally.

John Dehlin [00:22:23] Yeah. Okay. All right, well, before we jump into the video, there is one set of slides that I've shown before on Mormon Stories, but I'm going to show them again and again and again until this message gets out. And by the way, while you're joining us, we want to thank our live audience and our non live audience for joining us. Please subscribe to this channel on YouTube or Facebook or wherever you see us, please like this if you can and share, because that really helps with the algorithm. So. And we will do our best to incorporate as many of your comments or questions as we can. And of course, if you're joining us live, we always appreciate your super chats. Okay, so before we actually jump into Jody, I. Whenever I do an interview, and I've. I've now done probably 20 interviews on Jody and Ruby, Court TV has me on quite a bit these days. I've done some stuff for abc, Nightline and others. And this is a presentation that I always like to start with. So I'm going to show some slides here really quick. And these are kind of the Mormon or the Christian sort of doctrinal foundations that, that I think the, the work with, you know, Jody's work. And, and by the way, it's not just Jody. There's Maurice Harker, there's many Mormon therapists that continue to do this sort of work that Jody's been doing. And I just want to talk quickly about the doctrinal foundations. And y' all won't be able to see this, but I'll read it so you can know. So for me, it starts with the scripture in the New Testament, Matthew 5, 28, 29, Jesus Himself said, but I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And then Jesus goes on to say, if your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Now, it's already problematic that Jesus is just addressing, you know, men and saying, if you look on a woman, I guess that means women don't have sexual thoughts. Is that right? Yeah, never.

Janae Thompson [00:24:35] I've never once had sexual thoughts. I have four children and I know exactly how they were made, and I never Once thought about it. No, wait, I did.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] But also, Jesus is just going hardcore there and talking about plucking out your eyeballs and you know, just saying, having the thought you've pretty much already committed adultery. And you know, I hate to put the blame beginning, the beginnings of the blame at Jesus feet, but that's a problematic scripture in my view. Natasha, do you agree or disagree?

Natasha Helfer [00:25:04] I very much agree. So we have lots of thoughts and feelings that do not mean that we're going to act in certain ways. Plus, you're already setting up the parameter for betrayal that this must mean if you think about something, it must mean something about your relationship with me if I'm your spouse or your partner. And I think too, I mean, I have had cases in my career where people have actively try to self castrate where really damaging self harm has been accrued because of scriptures like that. Especially when people are also dealing with ocd, scrupulosity, things of that nature. So these are very harmful things that some people might not even bat an eye at and look over, but other people take very seriously.

Janae Thompson [00:25:55] And I'd also add from the perspective of a female growing up in the LDS Church that, but you know, I was always given the message, you're also responsible for what men think. If you wear something immodest, that's just as much your fault as it is theirs for thinking that because you're presenting

Natasha Helfer [00:26:12] those, you know, it's creating those lustful thoughts.

Janae Thompson [00:26:16] Yeah. So it's my fault for a man thinking something.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:26:21] And that was, I mean, that felt like a heavy responsibility at the time. Like, oh my gosh, I can't wear something. Cause what if someone thinks something?

John Dehlin [00:26:29] Yeah, yeah. So I don't know how we fix the Bible, but that's definitely a part of the Bible. I think we'd all agree needs to be fixed. No offense, Jesus. Okay. But it gets worse in the Book of Mormon, in Alma 39, I think that this is one of the most important things we could talk about the Book of Mormon, which by the way, is Mormonism's most sacred scripture. Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible. They consider it as more inspired than the Bible. And so they take it more seriously than anything. And in the book of Mormon, Alma 39, basically a father is talking to his son and he says, and this is not all my son. I think this is Alma talking to his son. Thou didst do that which was grievous unto me, for thou didst forsake the ministry and did go over into the land of Sauron among the borders of the Lamanites after the harlot Isabel. And so basically, Alma's mad at his son for having sex with a sex worker, I'm guessing. But if we go to verse five, Alma says to his son, know ye not my son, that these things are an abomination, meaning having extramarital sex. These things are an abomination in the sight of the Lord, yea, most abominable above all sins, save it be the shedding of innocent blood or denying of the Holy Ghost. So basically, the Book of Mormon is setting up this scenario where sexually, it's like murder, right? Murder, and then sexual intercourse with someone who's not your spouse. And literally rape and incest and all sorts of really horrible things are under that. So, you know, if you think about, like, why would Ruby handcuff or tie or chain or hog tie her children in a basement? Why would Kevin be kicked out of a house? And we're going to be talking about that. If you begin with the idea that masturbation, you know what Jesus said, that if you have lust in your heart, you're almost at adultery, but then adultery is almost like murder. It doesn't take much thinking to think this is super serious. And if my husband or my kids think. Think Ruby's children, you know, one of her sons was sent away to a wilderness camp or kicked out of his bedroom and put on a beanbag, I'm 100% sure that that had to do with being terrified that they might be masturbating or looking at porn. That's my understanding. But if you think about how Ruby might have been worried that Kevin or Chad or others would be committing the sin next to murder, then all of a sudden, anything is possible. If you want to prevent your spouse or children from committing sins next to murder. And that's how you get to Kevin being kicked out of the home or Chad being sent off to a wilderness camp or made to be sleeping on a beanbag. So do y' all have a. You know.

Janae Thompson [00:29:34] Well, I'm just thinking it's these really scrupulous thoughts around sexuality that set us up for making really bad choices. Like in my case, for instance, you know, I've seen many other widows in my same position get married really quickly so that they don't break the law of chastity. And I look and then. And then they end up being in this relationship that's really horrible for them and their kids and emotionally and, you know, and then that relationship Breaks up and devastates them financially, causes trauma to their kids, you know, whereas I kind of looked at that and I was like, I will not be getting married to have sex. And in that, I've protected my children, you know, from men that could potentially have hurt them or been predatory had I let them in to this, you know, like, I've got to follow the rules and we have to get married, you know, and to protect myself financially. And. And I also see this as, you know, what would it be like if we could embrace the behaviors our children have and love them through it and instead of trying to control them, just allow them and talk through it because it's normal and natural? And what kind of a relationship, I just have to ask myself, would that create between parents and children if any behavior could be accepted as part of normal growth and behavior and progression and we can have open discussion about it versus saying I have to take your door off or I have to do these things to make you stop doing this legitimately age appropriate, developmentally, behaviorally

Natasha Helfer [00:31:09] normal

Janae Thompson [00:31:09] and typical thing that kids do and men do and women do.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:31:16] How magical could our relationships be if we could just talk about them rather than judge that?

John Dehlin [00:31:20] Yeah. Natasha, what do you think about the Book of Mormon talking about sexual, quote, sin being next to murder and severity?

Natasha Helfer [00:31:28] Yeah. This is really what got me started in regards to my advocacy work and being more open about speaking out against these kinds of beliefs, which is difficult to do. Right. As a therapist, you're supposed to kind of, you're supposed to respect people's beliefs and values. But when beliefs and values are problematic and even abusive, and you see the results of them, I mean, I can't tell you how many adolescents I've seen throughout my career that are in actual self harming mode, suicidal mode, because of the guilt around masturbation, which the Pediatric association has normalized and said is normal human behavior since the 1950s. This is a form of child abuse. It's so interesting to me that we have like 500 scriptures that talk about don't be judgy, don't fear the love of Christ, all these love. But you've got about four scriptures between the Bible and the Book of Mormon that talk about sexuality in a way that, you know, really impacts our LGBTQ community, really impacts our adolescents, really impacts this idea of human sexuality. About four to five scriptures from, you know, however many thousands of years ago or hundreds of years ago that stick around in a way that become abusive to people and really stunt people's sexual development, relational Development, psychological development. And so these are things that we can no longer hide behind God's skirts and say, well, but God said so. Especially when we understand that many of these scriptures were written and translated in ways that who really knows what Jesus said? Right? Who really knows what God is saying or who's interpreting what God is saying? And this is where I hold church ecclesiastical leaders responsible for being able to see these dynamics. And not just in Latter Day Saint land. You know, these are, these are beliefs that are in evangelical Christianity, are in high demand. Religions across the world.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Yeah, yeah. And I'm really glad that you mentioned again church leaders, because that's a great segue to a final set of slides. And by the way, people are like, get to the Chad interview already. The whole purpose of this interview is to give context and specifically a Mormon context. And these are foundational scriptures that truly impact Mormonism. And now I'm going to show you the most shocking quotes of all. And instead of coming from the Bible or from the Book of Mormon, these are going to be coming from modern day Mormon prophets, seers and revelators. And for those who don't know, the Mormon Church believes that the leader of its church is a prophet. And when I say prophet, I mean a man who's living on the earth, who's talking to God and Jesus directly in a way that none of us mere mortals are able to do. And so the Mormon Church has had, I don't know, 15 or 20, I've lost count, prophets since Joseph Smith in 1830. And several of these Mormon prophets have had some pretty severe things to say about sexual transgression. And I'm just going to read through a few of those. So the first one is Heber J. Grant. He's the seventh Mormon prophet. I'll read a quote from him. He wrote, there is no true Latter Day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity, realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world. So that's Heber J. Grant. He was the seventh Mormon prophet, kind of the mid 20th century. The next quote is David O. McKay. He was the ninth Mormon prophet. He wrote, your virtue is worth more than your life. Please, young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. And again, when they talk about virtue, they mean literally being a virgin, right? And they're saying, it's better to die than to lose your virginity. Am I getting that wrong, Janae?

Janae Thompson [00:35:31] Is that what you're Hearing, that's what I remember hearing. Because I heard those quotes growing up and thinking like, wow, okay, if I were to be raped, I should probably just, just hopefully die in the situation, because that would be better because I would be, you know, worth less if that happened to me. So I hope it never does. I mean, I remember thinking thoughts like that.

John Dehlin [00:35:50] Yeah, not, not to mention the, the sexual purity object lessons. Did you get the cup licked, cupcake or the chewed gum?

Janae Thompson [00:35:58] Yep, the chewed gum.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Tell us what the chewed gum analogy is.

Janae Thompson [00:36:02] Well, it's like you put, you put the gum in your mouth and then you take it out and you know, do you want this, this now? And it's like, oh, nobody wants that. Well, that's you. If you have sex, nobody's gonna want you.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Right. And you're damaged, right? Yeah, damaged goes.

Janae Thompson [00:36:14] I was like, oh, I don't want to be that. That's for sure.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Yeah. So those come from these quotes. I'll, I'll give a couple more quotes and then Natasha, I'll make sure and give you a shot to opine. You may say, well, John, you're just picking, you know, you're just picking profits from like the mid 20th century. Well, there's more. So the next prophet is Spencer B. Kimball. He's the 12th Mormon prophet. He, he's quoted as saying, it is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle. And, and then if you think it's just for the really old ones, Gordon B. Hinckley, the 15th Mormon prophet. He wrote, I know what my mother expects. I know what she's saying in her prayers. She'd rather have me come home dead than unclean. Okay, so that gives you a sense for the stakes here. And again, what would make you kick your husband out of the house or hog tie your children or chain them to a pipe? Well, if you think they're about to commit a sin next to murder, I mean, the scriptures say better dead than unclean. So maybe hog tying your child is better than having them killed. So, like, that may seem extreme, but that's how people like Jody Hildebrandt and others monetize Mormon sexual shame. And we all know Jody Hildebrandt had like a 3 to 5 million dollar home. Like Natasha, do you have a 3 to 5 million dollar home as a therapist in Utah?

Natasha Helfer [00:37:48] I do not have a three to five million dollar home.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] Well, you haven't been. Been adequately monetizing sexual shame.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:53] I guess I have not. I've been trying to get rid of it, damn it.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] It's not as lucrative, right?

Natasha Helfer [00:37:59] It's not as lucrative to get rid of it.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] No, literally. And Jena, you may be able to speak to this, but, like, my understanding is Jodi would terrorize like, grandparents and say, I know you've got a bunch of money in your retirement, but your children or grandchildren need 10 to 20 grand a month to pay me because I can cure them of their. Of their sexual addiction. And she was bringing in for many clients several thousand dollars a month in fees of individual therapy, couples therapy, and then all the group therapies, plus her materials.

Janae Thompson [00:38:31] Yeah. And I can't speak to those big and older clients. I don't know. But what I do know is when I learned where her house was in that area, I was shocked to think, wow, that's a. I mean, I would love to be able to live in that area. You know, just like, how is she doing that? And it would make sense that, you know, there was some really what I would consider unethical use of, you know, the credentials that she had in that were being endorsed religiously.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:03] Yeah, it just to put this into perspective, I mean, most insurance companies and most reasonable therapists that I know are charging somewhere between 100 to $175 an hour as far as being reimbursed by insurance companies. And a lot of insurance companies, quite frankly, pay us even much less than that. And you go to therapy about four times a month at most. And so you're thinking at most you're spending less than $1,000 easily. And from what I'm hearing, as far as what people were paying for these programs and these groups is in the twenty thousand to fifty thousand dollar kind of set for a few months of work. Right. Or maybe nine months of work. And so that just speaks to the desperation I think, that people have and the manipulation of what you need to get saved from these things. And as you were talking to John, I just think too of the term that I hear used in my view, oftentimes colloquially, very inappropriately, is this betrayal trauma. I'm not trying to minimize that. Somebody like Ruby might feel very betrayed in a system like this where you're being taught, oh, my goodness, if my husband even has a lustful thought, that means that he's basically cheating on me. So I'm not necessarily blaming people for feeling that type of betrayal. But again, the system basically creates it. It creates this sense of teaching that that's how you should feel and that's the reaction you should have.

Janae Thompson [00:40:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Thank You, Natasha and Janae. There are a couple more slides I'll just show super quickly, and then we'll get to this. We'll get to the interview. You know, I just grabbed some slides off the Internet, like typical Mormon slides that we've shown to people. Here's a slide that basically shows the top three sins. Denying the Holy Ghost, which means basically saying that the church isn't true. That's the worst thing you could ever do as a Mormon. But then second is murder, and the third is sexual sin. And there's a quote from Spence W. Kimball. We need to constantly guard against immorality, pornography, and sexual permissiveness. That would destroy the purity of family members young and old. Perhaps I sound like an alarmist. If so, it is because I am alarmed and so are my brethren in the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles and other general authorities. And, you know, goes on President Kimball said about masturbation, Masturbation, or rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord, not of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose norms are lower. Latter Day Saints are urged to avoid this practice. Anyone fettered by this weakness should abandon the habit before he goes on a mission or receives the holy priesthood or goes in the temple for his blessings, you know, and then, you know, this is a picture of LifeStar, which is one of the groups. It's like a therapist network that sprung up, literally, with the main focus on sexual compulsive behavior. And Jodi was a part of LifeStar before she started Connections. And, you know, Sons of Helaman is another group that came out, you know, Maurice Harker is one of the therapists with Sons of Helaman. But that was this whole concept, therapeutic concept, to help save young men and women from. From the plague of masturbation, you know, and then, of course, Connections was. Was Jody's grift in that way. Okay.

Jody Hildebrandt's Unethical Business Practices

Natasha Helfer [00:42:33] And let's be clear that those organizations are alive and well, right? These are. It's not like, oh, Jody Hildebrandt, finally we got her license taken away. This is over. No, these. These organizations are alive and well. And as you were talking about those lists, right? Like, what was it? Murder. You know, the spirit. You notice that it's like permissiveness and pornography. Like, those are the sexual dramas that we're talking about. Who's mentioning rape? Who's mentioning incest, who's mentioning sexual coercion, pedophilia. Who's mentioning, you know, like, sexual slavery, though we're not mentioning those things. We're attacking basic sexual behaviors that most humans engage in and making people feel like they're the worst humans in the world.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] Yeah. Yep. Okay. Well, so that's kind of the Mormon context. Now I'll ask everyone again, please, please like this episode or share it. And please subscribe. And we'll go ahead and jump in now to Kevin's police recording. Again, this is around September of 2023. His, you know, Ruby, his wife Ruby is now in jail at this point of his interview. So is Jody. And the police are trying to figure out what happens. And so this is going to be Kevin telling his story of. Of how, you know, he got kicked out of his home and, you know, how his best understanding of how it ended up where his children were being tortured and his wife and former therapist ends up in jail. Any anything else, Shanae or Natasha you want to say before we jump in?

Janae Thompson [00:44:05] Just a couple other comments. I did specifically asked Jody if she would take insurance when I worked with her, and she was like, no, I won't take insurance. You just have to pay me directly. And I thought that was odd because I was like, you're a licensed therapist, so you should be able to take insurance. But it did come at, you know, a much higher rate. And what Natasha was saying, it makes sense because it sounds like she would have gotten a lot less. And so she was really working that system for sure.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] Yeah. She's also had her license suspended at least twice. But weirdly, she was speaking at a global conference for women years after her license was suspended. So the Mormon Church, and there was the Eternal Core Conference, which had a bunch of the top Mormon therapists. Like, somehow Jodi Hildebrandt remained a top Mormon therapist long after she had had her license suspended and bishops were referring people to her, and the Mormon Church was even paying many of her bills, according to her niece Jesse. And we also know through the Ruby Franke Journal that Jody Hildebrandt was meeting with Brad Wilcox in the Young Men's first presidency for the Global Worldwide Mormon Church. And Jody Hildebrandt was meeting with Jeremy Yaghi, one of the general authorities for the Mormon Church, literally, as I understand, understand it, weeks before she was put in jail while the kids were being tortured. So Mormon Jody maintained connections with top Mormon church leaders up until her arrest, and she used their names as a way to get credibility with her clients. Is that right, Janae?

Janae Thompson [00:45:45] Yeah. And I didn't know those names when I was working with her, but she was very open about working with local bishops, working with stake presidents and working in those higher tiers of Mormon leadership.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:57] Yeah, right. Which, by the way, I was kicked out of many years ago because I'm doing ethical work. But I do want to clarify one thing, that it's not uncommon for therapists to do self pay in this day of insurance. It's very challenging to bill insurance. So a lot of therapists will just do a super bill or we'll help you submit your paperwork to an insurance company. And some therapists do have kind of put in their stripes to get paid more than maybe what an insurance company would pay them. So there are those reasons, I want to say, that's not necessarily uncommon to not take insurance.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] Well, it's super common. It's super common. So most of the best therapists I know now do cash only just because they can charge more and because insurance companies are tough to work with and they have a huge wait list so they can just demand cash. We're not really necessarily denouncing that per se, but we have a good sense that one of the reasons Jodi was doing cash only, aside from making a crap ton of money, is she had had her license challenged. Exactly multiple times and wanted to operate outside of her license. The ethical code and of her license. Right?

Natasha Helfer [00:47:04] Yes.

Kevin Franke's Police Recording Begins

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Okay. All right. Well, we're not going to start playing this Kevin Frankie police recording. It's about 50 minutes, so, you know, buckle in and what. What we're going to do is we're going to pause it at various points and talk about it. But again, this is Kevin Frankie, husband of Ruby Frankie, while Ruby's in prison and Jody's in prison around September 2023. All right, let's roll the tape. Set for 11pm Would you like this?

Janae Thompson [00:47:35] Thank you for meeting with us.

Guest 3 [00:47:36] Were you there the first. I was there. I don't think I interviewed with you. Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:40] Lieutenant Studley was with me the first time.

Guest 3 [00:47:43] I don't remember a lot.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:47] I don't blame you. It's a lot all at once and

John Dehlin [00:47:49] usually long time they'll see as a good thing when you're dealing with it.

Guest 3 [00:47:52] Yeah. But I know that both of my kids have mentioned both of you by names and particularly with you and good kid. Do you guys by chance have a card?

Janae Thompson [00:48:07] I do in the car, but not.

Guest 3 [00:48:09] Not on me.

Janae Thompson [00:48:10] So I'll grab that for you, though.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:48:13] So like I talked to Mr. Kester about. I just want this to be totally ran by you. I won't ask you any questions that are incriminating. We're not looking at you as a suspect or anything like that. We just are more curious of the dynamic and Jody coming into your relationship, your lives. So if you kind of just want to walk us through that on how she came into your lives and then where things started to.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] You said Julie, but.

Janae Thompson [00:48:42] Oh, Jody. Yeah, Jody.

Guest 3 [00:48:44] Yeah. Yeah, I can do that. And I'll. I'll ask first. Have you found the pen papers?

Janae Thompson [00:48:52] The pen papers. So we found quite a bit of different.

Guest 3 [00:48:57] We believe they're on the, the computer and the rest of them are unsealed, like they're trying to mail them off. But we do not have a direct copy of it.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:06] No.

Guest 3 [00:49:07] Because my understanding was we had purchased as a Christmas present for Jody in 2020 a leather, like a leather folder that, you know, three inches thick or whatever. And it had an engraved on the leather on the outside, the pen papers. And Ruby wrote detailed notes of everything, all interactions with Jody and pam botcher from August 2021 until I don't know when. And you're saying something like, is it like a satchel looking leather or is it more like a binder? No, well, no, it's like I, I don't even know what to call it it. But it's, it's flat. Yeah. So you see shorter.

Janae Thompson [00:49:58] Because we do have Ruby's journal, which is from those dates that you mentioned.

Guest 3 [00:50:02] These things are going to be. So she wouldn't write the stuff she wrote in the pen paper. She would not write in her journal. The stuff she wrote in the pen papers was not intended to be read by anybody until God would decree them to be written as scripture for the whole world to read. Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:50:25] I believe that's what we have. Because you're saying the pen would be different.

Guest 3 [00:50:32] Correct?

Natasha Helfer [00:50:33] Like a.

Guest 3 [00:50:33] Well, it was just in a thing called the pen papers. So it was. And. And that's how Ruby referred to those papers. So it described all of the visions and trances and everything that Jody and Ruby went into. How thick would you say it was? It was like 3 inches thick or so. And there were hundreds of pages of written documents I really had. And that was given to Jody in 2022 when she left and returned to her home in January. So this is similar. Yeah, like it would look like that.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:15] Okay, that's not.

Personal Revelation and Mormon Doctrine

John Dehlin [00:51:18] All right, really quickly. I'm just going to pause that to begin with now. This, this strikes at a core Mormon doctrine. So for those of you who don't know much about Mormonism, Mormonism begins in, allegedly in 1820, when a young man named Joseph Smith, somewhere between 13 and 15 years old, depending on which of his accounts you read. He claims to have had a visitation from God. Well, his first account was from God the Lord, and then it changed over time to being God and Jesus when his theology changed. But Mormonism starts with a human receiving a visitation from God and Jesus under the belief that God can not only visit you, but angels can visit you. Like in Joseph Smith's case, the angel Moroni. But also there's the scripture that Mormons like to quote from. You know, James, if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and abradeth not, and it shall be given unto him. Mormons are taught that the Holy Ghost can inspire us and even give us personal revelation. So this idea of prophets receiving revelation, but also members receiving personal revelation is a core Mormon doctrine. And so they're talking about these pen papers in addition to Ruby Frinke's journal. It is weird for Mormon women sometimes to be claiming to receiving revelation because Mormonism is such a patriarchy that it's normally the men that are claiming to get the revelations. But this idea of communicating with God, communicating with angels, receiving personal revelations, even writing them down, and then, you know, even going farther and claiming that you're talking to God, angels or prophesying, that's normally activity that's, you know, reserved within orthodox Mormonism for the prophets, seers, revelators, and apostles. But, you know, why not? Why not regular members? And why not Jody? Because. And this is where, you know, Chad Daybell falls in this camp. Lori Vallow falls in this camp. A lot of Mormon preppers fall in this camp. Once you teach Mormons that their thoughts or their feelings come from Jesus or God and that they can receive personal revelation, how do they know when a thought or feeling that they're having is from God or Jesus or is just their own mind? No one was ever able to explain to me what the difference is between the Holy Ghost and my own thoughts and feelings. And when you add to that in chapter four of First Nephi in the Book of Mormon, one of the top key Mormon prophets, Nephi being told by God or an angel that he should chop off the head of a man who has a book that he really wants. And again, it's his thoughts and feelings and a vision telling him to murder somebody all of a sudden. Any behavior is possible if you believe you're being influenced by God or Jesus. So it's not to say most Mormons murder their kids or even think that they're receiving prophecy, but a lot do. Janay, what do you have to say about this?

Janae Thompson [00:54:39] Well, I think that's also where there's a lot of confusion within the church, because I remember, I think it was April 2018 where, you know, Russell Nelson came out and was really talking about in his conference address about personal revelation and how important it is to have personal revelation and how, you know, you're entitled to personal revelation. And so, you know, I think that gives people the idea that they can have personal revelation. But what I have found is you can have personal revelation as long as it's in alignment with what's already being taught. And if it's outside of that, it's wrong and within the context of the church. And if it's outside of that, but it's within, you know, the realm of more in depth Gospel teachings, then it's like, well, maybe you're actually more special than the rest of the congregation within Mormonism. And that's where you get these people, you know, like Lori Valo and Chad, and people that think they're more special than the rest of us because they're hearing the words of God directly from them. And yet that is what the prophet teaches you can do.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] Yeah, yeah. And the church tries to make sure nobody's claiming to get revelation for the church or for other members. But my point is this teaching that your thoughts and feelings can be communication from God is a genie that gets out of the bottle way too much, whether it's an extreme case like a Mormon prepper who's starting to teach that he's the Davidic servant, or the one mighty and strong, as prophesied by Isaiah and the Doctrine and Covenants to usher in the second coming of Jesus. That's where the whole visions of glory Avram Gileadi stuff is that we've talked about, that inspired people like Chad Daybell and Tim Ballard and others. But it even goes as too innocuous as a Mormon husband that wants to manipulate or influence his wife or children, giving them a husband's blessing or a father's blessing, where really he just tells them to do what he wants them to do. And maybe he even really believes it's coming from God or Jesus. Because again, if it's your thoughts and feelings that God or Jesus inspires you through, how is that Mormon man supposed to know the difference between his own patriarchal abuse and literal inspiration from God and Jesus? Natasha, I'm guessing you've got experience with this.

Natasha Helfer [00:57:00] Yeah, I mean, this is tricky. This is a tricky space because when, you know, as a member of the church, this is one of the things I really enjoyed about our doctrine, that we're not just sheep that have to follow whatever the prophet says, you know, that there is this capacity for us to have a personal relationship with our Savior or the divine or whatever you want to call that. And at the same time, I think it does lend to problematic issues like you just mentioned. I mean, we have an interesting thing going on right now with the president of the Relief Society. Right. So President Camille Johnson, she basically got personal revelation that she shouldn't follow the current prophets and went and got her law degree, and yet she's the general president of the church today. Right. And many women are kind of looking at that like, well, hold on a minute. Why did you get that personal revelation? I was just following my prophet and didn't go forward with career aspirations. So that's an example of something that I think actually was healthy. I think that was a healthy choice for Camille Johnson, in her own personal life, to follow her own personal ideas instead of just following whatever some older leader said she should do with her life. But, so there's both healthy and unhealthy ways to look at this issue of personal revelation. And I would agree with you, Janay, that the lds, you know, if it comes to the attention of LDS leaders, if your personal revelation is offset from what they have said, then they discount that. Like my personal revelation that masturbation was not a sin was not considered revelation. Right.

Janae Thompson [00:58:36] Well, and I felt like even when I was very active in the church, I had personal revelation to go and have a psilocybin journey. And this was about six months before my husband died. And, you know, I thought, there's no way I'm gonna go talk to my bishop about that to see if so. But I followed my own intuition, and, you know, I felt like it was one of those things that really helped me through what was coming. Not knowing that my husband was gonna die, but, you know, like, being able to lean back on that experience was really, really helpful. But at the time, I was really kind conflicted because I was like, I feel like this is right for me, but it's outside what I think the church would approve. And what's really interesting about what Kevin says there is. I mean, he says they were waiting for God to come again, and these papers are going to be revealed as if they are, you know, being prepared as scripture for the body of the church or for the body of, you know, is Christ going to share these. I mean, it just sounds like the intention behind these was really extreme. Like it was way more important than what the normal, everyday member is doing.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Yeah. And with this prepper movement that's emerged with the Internet over the past five to 10 years, there's just more and more of this. And so that's why we have to call it out. Because if the Mormon Church doesn't straighten out to its members that they need to stop thinking that their thoughts and feelings are revelation, we're just going to see more Tim Ballards, more Chad and Laurie Daybells, Valas, more Jody Hildebrandts, et cetera, more, you know, Julie Rose. More Julie Rose. So that's why we're calling it out. And the Mormon Church knows how to fix stuff. They excommunicated me because they didn't like my podcast. They excommunicated Natasha because they didn't like her ethical sex therapy and marriage therapy. So they know how to be vigilant and excommunicate bad actors. They just need to turn that on their prepper members, you know, and so we hope they will. All right, let's go back to. Let's go back to the video, the

Janae Thompson [01:00:37] journal that we have.

Guest 3 [01:00:38] So.

John Dehlin [01:00:39] Okay.

Guest 3 [01:00:40] I just realized it's something Jody.

John Dehlin [01:00:42] So we didn't even really talk about the actual pen papers, but, you know, the vid, the Ruby's journal has been released as a PDF. We've already covered that on Mormon Stories. These pen papers just sound like Jody's receiving revelations from God and writing them down. And she's convinced Ruby and Kevin and others that she's literally receiving revelation from God. And what is novel about that, I don't know if you guys like it or hate it, is that it's a Mormon woman receiving revelation for men. Do you like. Is that good or is that dark? Like, I. I don't know.

Janae Thompson [01:01:16] It's conflicting messages because, you know, I think it's great for women to be able to, you know, speak out and have a voice and be heard. Of course. But again, it's that conflict of. Okay, well, within the Mormon Church, you have to have a calling for that. Right. Does she have a calling? So. No. So, you know, within the confines of what the structure is around the religion, it's not appropriate. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:42] It would be great if we could get revelators in the church that were women. Yeah, absolutely.

Janae Thompson [01:01:46] It would be great.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] Yeah. But maybe not Jody. Right?

Natasha Helfer [01:01:50] I would say not. That wouldn't be my first choice.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Yeah. So I'm hoping the police have These pen papers, and I'm wondering why they weren't released along with Ruby's heavily redacted journal.

Janae Thompson [01:02:03] From what I followed, I'm not sure that they. I think they were hidden or they can't find them.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] Okay.

Janae Thompson [01:02:08] And I'm not sure about that, but that's kind of what I gathered, is there was a point where they had them and then they didn't take them, and so they were hidden by somebody.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] Okay. Well, if any of you current viewers or listeners know where the pen papers are, go ahead and share it in the comments and we'll share it.

Janae Thompson [01:02:24] I'm super curious to know what's in those.

John Dehlin [01:02:26] Or afterwards you can email me@mormonstoriesmail.com because I'd like to read those pen papers.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:31] I'm having deja vu right now With a secret Book of Mormon pages that are hidden.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] Right. Like the lost page.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:37] Lost pages. We're having lost pages.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] Portions of the Book of Mormon. Yeah. All right, let's. Let's keep going with the Kevin Frankie police interview.

Guest 3 [01:02:47] Second, they would not want found. Yeah, but she wouldn't want to destroy it because we.

Janae Thompson [01:02:54] We didn't find that in the home.

Guest 3 [01:02:55] We found an empty one.

Janae Thompson [01:02:56] We did find an empty one.

Guest 3 [01:02:57] I don't remember saying there's an empty. Empty thing like that. There's a full thing, but it was. If. If the empty one says the pen paper papers on the outside of it and they emptied it. I did sign any, remember?

Janae Thompson [01:03:09] We'll go back through our photos and see if that's.

Guest 3 [01:03:11] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:03:12] Because everything in the homeless photographs, if

Guest 3 [01:03:15] you're interested in Pam Botcher, that's going to tie Pam Botcher to all of this. What's in those documents? Okay. Okay, so can I just interrupt a minute?

Janae Thompson [01:03:29] I'm sorry. Sure.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] Okay, so while that's blank, I think there. I think that's a redacted part of this audio recording. So it's actually rolling. So while it continues to roll, I'm just going to say that everyone's saying that Pam Botcher may have the pen papers.

Natasha Helfer [01:03:51] Yes.

Janae Thompson [01:03:51] We want the pucksies.

Guest 3 [01:03:52] Right. Okay. Okay.

Janae Thompson [01:03:53] So why don't you finish here and

John Dehlin [01:03:54] then call me when you're done.

Natasha Helfer [01:03:56] I will.

Guest 3 [01:03:57] Okay. Will you let the bailiff.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] We're in here so she can bring us a copy of the order.

Guest 3 [01:04:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] Let me see if I can find.

Guest 3 [01:04:02] Okay, thank you. In 20. In 2018, we were cy.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] Really quickly. People are asking who Pam Botcher was. My understanding is she was just a bestie of Jod's who lived in the St. George area.

Janae Thompson [01:04:22] So she was. I mean, when I went to the retreats, she was like the coordinator. She was kind of like the number two in the company, almost like Jody's assistant. That was the impression that I got of her in the Connections company.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:33] And wasn't she also the person who was taking care of the two middle children, like after school or something?

Janae Thompson [01:04:40] Like that's where they were when the police were looking for them.

John Dehlin [01:04:42] They were at her house, Pam Boucher's house. So did you meet Pam? You would have met her?

Janae Thompson [01:04:47] Yeah, I met her briefly. I didn't have a ton of interaction with her.

John Dehlin [01:04:50] Okay. So a lot of people are saying she might have the pen papers, but

Janae Thompson [01:04:54] that would make sense to me, but I have no idea. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:04:58] I think later we're going to find out that Pam Botcher, Jody and Ruby all are sleeping in the same bed. I think. I think we're about to hear that, but I won't. No, no spoilers. All right, Kevin's going to tell us more about a story. So he's saying in 2018. And there are parts of this video that are redacted. So we just have to deal with some silent moments while, you know, while we deal with the redaction, someone else is saying, Carolyn is saying that Pam is the president of Connections. So that's interesting. Alexandra is saying that Pam was not in the bed, just Ruby and Jody. So that's interesting. We apologize that there's some redacted portions of this interview. While people, while we're waiting, I'll just play a couple more quick comments

Guest 3 [01:06:02] and that's going to be hard to find in today's world.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] Okay, so it's restarted, so we'll just go back to that.

Guest 3 [01:06:12] Good luck. Ruby had a very close friend named Paige Hannah, who lives in Mapleton, who was a massive fan of Connections, and Joey Hilda Brahm. And in fact, the Hannah's are on the COVID of their book. If you know, you've probably seen them. And so Ruby started to speak with Jody towards the end of 2018, early 2019, with the intention of having her be the therapist to Jody. Jody always had a larger interest in communicating with the parents more than with the actual patient, which I always found curious. But her theory was, if you want to help your child, you have to help yourself first, and then you'll know how to help the child. So she spoke with Ruby frequently and the frequency of their communications ramped up. And then the first conversation that Jody had with Chad was in June of 2019, while we were on a trip to the East Coast.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] So really quickly, Chad is the oldest son of Jody. And it sounds like. Sorry. Of Ruby. And it sounds like Chad was the first in the Frankie family to see Jody. And I just have to guess that, you know, this is speculation. I'm not trying to talk about Chad. He is an adult now, but I'm just guessing. Well, Natasha, what would you guess Jody would be seeing the teenager Chad about in a Mormon context?

Natasha Helfer [01:08:13] Masturbation and pornies.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:08:17] I mean, that's so typical. I mean, that's just a typical thing. And even if it wasn't that, and we're making assumptions, we can just assume that many of her clients who were adolescents were being seen for that reason. And that is why parents, due to all that context that you provided, it's that fear that parents will send children to therapists who are basically contributing to what I deem child abuse. This is child sexual abuse.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] So wait, let me just make sure. You're saying that if a religious therapist is seeing a teenage boy or girl to try and cure them of masturbation, that's child abuse.

Natasha Helfer [01:08:57] Yes, I am willing to say that.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] Can you explain how that is child abuse?

Natasha Helfer [01:09:01] Because you are imposing your own belief systems onto a child. Parents in this country have a right to do that. I think it's parental abuse as well. To keep your children from masturbating. I think that's a form of sexual abuse. I'm quite strong about this. But if you're a therapist, you do not have the right to abuse your own children under religious freedom rights. Here in this country, we do have a right to abuse our own children through religious freedom rights. We do.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] Now I can tell you're feeling passionately about that and we love your passion, Natasha, but let's just say conservative Christians or members of high demand religion are going to say, well, of course you want to do whatever you can to keep your kid from masturbating. So what's your argument? That it's not just okay to masturbate, but that it's child abuse to get a therapist to try and get your kid not to masturbate. How is that abuse? Why isn't that good?

Natasha Helfer [01:09:53] Because you are putting forth onto a child who is a minor who cannot make decisions for themselves. You are imposing a belief system that is abusive.

John Dehlin [01:10:04] But don't parents bring their kids up in religious context all the time?

Natasha Helfer [01:10:09] Yes, and we allow it. That's why I'm saying we allow child sexual abuse in this country. By far.

John Dehlin [01:10:14] But you're not saying parents shouldn't teach religious principles to their kids, right?

Natasha Helfer [01:10:21] I think there's a difference between religious principles and abusive religious principles.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] Okay, so what would be some examples of some religious principles that are okay to teach a kid versus ones that are abusive?

Natasha Helfer [01:10:33] Be kind.

John Dehlin [01:10:34] That's okay.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:35] Versus don't masturbate because you will go to hell.

John Dehlin [01:10:38] Okay, and what does that do to a kid? If you teach a kid they're committing the sin next to murder, and then they're an addict and that they need a therapist to fix this problem. In your professional experience, what does that do to a kid? Or what can that do to a kid?

Natasha Helfer [01:10:52] This is a huge psychological assault on who they are as a person. It goes against their own human, like, drives and desires and needs and development. And so you're stunting your child developmentally, and you're causing psychological assault and internalized trauma and shame, which then we will try to help them with 20, 30 years later in therapy. It's that simple.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] Okay. Janae, anything you want to add?

Janae Thompson [01:11:16] Well, I would also just add, from what I've gathered, Chad was kicked out of his room for playing a prank on his son or on his brother. And that's where kind of like these funny behaviors of, you know, your kid just being a kid. And I have four boys. So, you know, when I heard about this prank, it actually sounded funny to me as a mom. Yeah, I would have been a little bit annoyed by it. But it's also these, again, natural, normal behaviors of childhood playing out, you know, their personalities and who they are, and then they're being punished and shamed for it. And, you know, Jody gave me the same recommendation for my oldest son to, you know, put him in a wilderness camp as soon as he's old enough. And I was kind of like, ooh, I don't know that I like that recommendation, because they're going to be, you know, there could potentially be other predators in those things, and I don't want to put my son in that position where he would be at risk like that, especially as the youngest child. So I can confirm that. You know, as far as the advice Jodi's giving, yes, she would work with the parents. She didn't want to work with the kids very much. She only had a couple sessions with my boys. And each session, I just walked away with this horrible feeling. And I think in the end, what it is, is, you know, if you're shaming your kids, like you were saying, Natasha, for what they're doing you know, be kind. That's a beautiful principle. But don't masturbate because you're going to go to hell. It's that at the end of that saying, don't do this because you're going to go to hell, your kid looks at you and feels like a piece of trash. And is that how we want to make our children feel when we're teaching them? Because that's not teaching at the end, if they're feeling like that, we're not teaching them. That is abusive.

John Dehlin [01:12:55] Yeah. There's a comment from one of our current Livestream viewers. Change Capability Institute says, why is John drilling into this? And I tried to explain that at the very beginning. This idea of sexual shame is the whole foundation of a cottage industry of grift where Mormons are seeing therapists going to youth survival wilderness survival camps, literally being kidnapped and abducted and taken to problematic teen centers all throughout Utah and Arizona and Idaho for very normative behaviors. And so if you don't understand Mormon sexual shame around masturbation and pornography, you won't understand Jody Hildebrandt or Ruby Franke or Kevin Franke or, you know, even Chad Dabel or Lori Valo for that matter. So, again, that's why we're talking about this. It's not because I'm obsessed personally with this topic or even particularly like talking about it. We're trying to educate the public so the Mormon Church will change its doctrines and policies so that these cottage industries of therapists will go away. They'll stop doing these things. So, anyway, let's keep going.

How the Connections Group Became a Cult

Guest 3 [01:14:08] All of her visits with you virtual through Zoom, but she would talk with Ruby on the phone or through Zoom quite frequently. So Jody met with

John Dehlin [01:14:24] really quickly. While it's paused, I just want to say it may be that Chad did a prank and that's why he was forced to sleep outside of his room. I've heard it very common that if a Mormon parent is afraid that their kid might be looking at porn or masturbating, that they'll take the door off their bedroom so that the kids don't have privacy. Because if they don't have privacy, they're less likely, according to the strict parent, to look at porn or masturbate. Have you heard about that type of thing, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:15:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:00] Parents taking Mormon parents taking the doors off their kid's bedroom as a precaution.

Natasha Helfer [01:15:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:06] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [01:15:06] And for a lot of things. I mean, again, I think you're right, Janay. This wasn't only about sexual behavior. Like when you hear Ruby talking about the behavior she's upset with, even like a six year old on. She's basically normative childhood feelings, you know, normative. Pushing back against parents. Things that we as parents should see as normative behavior and be able to have our own emotional maturity in check enough to manage a child trying to figure out their own feelings and ideas and when they have tantrums and are upset about basic normal life things.

John Dehlin [01:15:41] Yeah. Last thing I'll say is that my understanding is part of Jody's technique was to start with one member of the family. In this case it was the son, Chad. But then you, you get your hooks into the parents and then one of the parents is seeing Jody and then the couple seeing Jody and then, then they're also referred to her groups in addition to the couple's therapy and the individual therapy. And it's just part of this grift of convincing the whole family they all need to see Jodi and buy the workbooks and the online courses and attend all the groups. It's all part of the grift. And it starts with one family member. And in this case it's Chad.

Janae Thompson [01:16:23] Yeah. And Jodi would say, if you want to work with me one on one, you also need to be in the group.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Yeah. So groups are mandatory pretty much.

Janae Thompson [01:16:30] And there's a three month minimum on the group, so you can't commit to any less than that.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] Can you talk to that, like, Natasha? Like just this idea of like, if you're going to see me sign up for three to six months of individual plus, you have to do the groups and you pay for the groups and you got to do it for three to six months. What are the ethics of locking clients in to long term mandatory contracts and making extra services mandatory for therapy services?

Natasha Helfer [01:16:58] It's actually unethical. It is blatantly unethical to do that because you should be able to fire your therapist and at any point you should be able to say, I no longer want to work with you. So there are of course therapists that run groups and there are people. If you're going to. I run groups, I run seven week groups. I'm like, if you're going to commit to this group, please commit to the seven weeks. But even then, when people have said, this group isn't working for me, I reimburse their money. So it's like, you shouldn't have this idea that you can't bow out if it's no longer a good fit for you. You should be able to do that at any point with Any therapist?

John Dehlin [01:17:35] Yeah, I literally have never told a client, you know, when I worked with clients, either as a therapist or as a coach, you have to do two sessions or five or 10 or three months. Like, that's ridiculous. Like, I know that if I'm not working well with a client, they need to fire me and find someone better. And I'll be the first to refer them. But to lock people in, no. You should shop around and find the best therapist that works for you. Run from a therapist that forces you into long term contracts. That's horrible.

Janae Thompson [01:18:10] And it kind of felt like it was one of those things where when you first go into the group, it was just a little bit like, whoa, I don't know if I really want to stay here. But, like, the longer you kind of drank the Kool Aid, the more likely you were to get, you know, entrenched in the teachings. And so I feel like, just from my perspective, that's why there was a minimum commitment. There was. So you wouldn't run the first session.

John Dehlin [01:18:34] Yeah. Okay, let's keep going with the, with the Kevin interview.

Guest 3 [01:18:49] Things got really. It got strange around the. The fall of 2020. The Hannah's were trying to convince and bring Ruby into. Thank you, thanks. Into this organization, organization called Connections. And that particularly were focused on things like lust versus love and healthy marriages. Happier marriages, happier relationships. She invited me to go to a. It was like a conference or something held at Thanksgiving point in Lehigh. There were like a hundred people there. And that was in the fall of 2019, maybe late summer 2019. Late summer, late summer 2019. And my impression at that time was this is, this is absolute craziness. This is a bunch of man hating women that are just looking for excuses to tear down their husbands. And I mean, that's what it felt like to me when I was in there. But it did, it was confusing because there were people that I respected a lot that were up on the stage with microphones in hand, you know, giving testimonials of how great this was and how it changed the. Their lives and their marriage. Like the Hannah's were among them, you know, and, and, and so, yeah, it was confusing.

John Dehlin [01:20:39] Okay, really quickly, Janae, do you know who the Hannahs are?

Janae Thompson [01:20:42] I've never met him personally, but I, I've seen Paige's two videos that she's released since then, you know, kind of talking about this.

John Dehlin [01:20:49] So, yeah, the only thing I know is that once upon a time there was like a tech startup called Homie out of Utah county that was sort of like trying to create an app for, you know, buying and selling your homes. That would kind of circumvent, as I understand it, the MLS or the traditional real estate commission service. And as I understand it, Johnny Hanna was the CEO of Homey.

Janae Thompson [01:21:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] And then Paige is his wife. And we're going to hear more about them in this interview. But they clearly were, at some level, partners or at least volunteers with Jodi in connections.

Janae Thompson [01:21:31] And it sounds like they introduced. That's who introduced Ruby to Jody. That's how she found her.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] And Utah. It's worth noting that Utah leads the nation anywhere between first and fifth in the United States in terms of states where affinity fraud is most prevalent. So, like in mlm, Jody is going to be finding Mormon influencers that are wealthy and prestigious, maybe eventually, like Janae. Now, I'm not trying to say what your income is or anything, but, like, the more wealth or celebrity you can attract, then you can help get more people.

Janae Thompson [01:22:09] Right. And I think that's an overall principle within, you know, the Keeping up with the Joneses type idea within Mormonism, where, you know, that's not taught at church, but that's a cultural effect of, you know, how we're all trying to kind of be prestigious and be seen a certain way and, you know, project your life to the world in, look how great we are. We're a perfect Mormon family.

John Dehlin [01:22:32] Yeah. And really quickly, one of the patterns that we see with Jody, you know, most people don't understand this concept of dual relationships, but the fact that Jody, you know, Jody's niece, comes to live with Jody, and Jodi is now the therapist to her niece, and then also puts her niece to work both as, like, her accounts payable, accounts receivable person, but also as, like a salesperson to help Jodi market her services to others. As a former client, like Natasha, can you just educate our viewers and listeners just the quick one minute. What's a dual relationship? And what are the ethics of using your clients as workers or volunteers in your therapeutic operation and. Or having them be your sales reps? Basically?

Natasha Helfer [01:23:24] Yeah. I think you explained that pretty well. I mean, a dual relationship means you have two relationships with a person, and these are highly discouraged relationships in all of our ethics kind of documents. Right. Regardless of what type of therapist you are. So you have to think about power differentials. Right. So if I'm your boss and on top of it, I'm your therapist, or if I'm your relative and I'm your therapist, or if I'm your church leader, like your Bishop, and I'm your therapist. These are all spaces where you're going to be less able to do therapeutic work without that influence, that power differential influence that can be very harmful. So these are things that as therapists, you can. Yeah, you can get definitely. You can turn a therapist in for this in regards to their regulatory boards. And usually these things are followed up with. And it's one of the main. I would say confidentiality, dual relationships and sex are the three main reasons why people lose their license as a therapist.

Guest 3 [01:24:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:30] So a therapist should never treat their spouse, their parents, their kids, their aunts, their uncles, their cousins, their friends, their friends, their co workers. Zero, you know, zero dual relationship kind of garbage going on, let alone hire them to work for them or have sex with them or marry them or date them or use them as sales reps to shill their sales.

Natasha Helfer [01:24:57] Definitely not a sales rep. Yes.

Janae Thompson [01:25:00] And I think this is really capitalizing on the pattern that the church teaches around missionary work. It's like, okay, now you're converted. Go convert somebody else.

John Dehlin [01:25:07] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:25:08] You know, we're taught that from the beginning. Go share.

John Dehlin [01:25:10] Yeah, yeah. And, and, yeah, check out Paige Hannah's video or two that she's released recently. I haven't watched the whole thing, but, you know, I'm sure the Hannahs are. Hannah's are probably as much victims as anybody. So we're not necessarily trying to call them out or shame them. All right. But, oh, one last thing, Natasha. Notice that Kevin's initial response to what he was experiencing in Connections was that it was a problem, that it was against what he felt was good, against what he felt was right. But then all these influential people were doing it, and so he kind of pushed down his inner voice or his intuition. Now, on the one hand, and therapy can be uncomfortable, so that you're going to not necessarily like what you're hearing if it, you know, if it's causing you to make changes. So on the one hand, it might be normal for someone to not always be comfortable, like with exposure therapy. Like, if somebody has obsessive compulsive disorder or some sort of spider phobia, they're not going to be excited about holding a spider in their hand or, you know, being asked to confront their obsessive thoughts with behavior that neutralizes the anxiety and helps condition them to live a healthy life. Again, on the other hand, people should listen to their intuition. Right. What do you think? How do people navigate that, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:26:40] Yeah. Well, even with something like exposure therapy, you're meeting the therapist, you're understanding the reasons why exposure therapy might be helpful, you're feeling comfortable with the therapist who's then going to ask you to do something uncomfortable, which I think most people who go to therapy recognize there's going to be some discomfort in going. I just saw a first client today who was like, this is really uncomfortable to just show up in this space. I'm like, of course it is. Right. You're going to be sharing some vulnerable stuff about your life. And you've never met me before that's uncomfortable. But hopefully by the end of the session, we'll see if you feel comfortable with me, with my personality, with my approach, with my recommendations. I'm going to be asking you if you are comfortable with that. Right. So a lot of how good therapy is practiced is client driven. Right. We, we want to make sure our clients are comfortable with our approaches and that they are builders of the treatment plans and collaborators of what we're going to be doing in therapy together. That doesn't sound like what he was experiencing. What he, what, what this sounds more like is group think. Right. So that he went into a space, he was initially very uncomfortable. And yet we're all vulnerable sometimes, especially with some of the things you've all been talking about, influence. And I respect these people and I know these people. Some of these people are my friends. And now they're telling me this is the way. And so we're all vulnerable to that kind of group think mentality that over time you get more and more comfortable with things that initially felt off.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:28:10] And it sounds to me more like rather than him having a choice in, let me look at this, let me see if this is something that would work for me. There's all these people ascending on him, trying to convince him, which, you know, like, that's a lot of force that was happening within that, and that's a lot of pressure for one person to kind of withstand, especially if your spouse is really wanting you to come and listen to this. But, you know, I got the same sense when I was in the women's group. You know, this feels like, like man haters, you know, and then, and then in my mind, almost from the training that I got, you know, from the scriptures about not being judgmental and things like that, it's like, oh, well, let me reserve judgment and let me just see and let me, you know, not listen to that voice inside myself saying, maybe this is that man hater type energy. Do I really want to be in that and blaming myself for being judgmental, you know, I'm judging them a little too harshly. Maybe I should just step back and wait and see, you know, like I'm being too harsh here maybe.

Natasha Helfer [01:29:11] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] And I'll just have my two cents. A good therapist is going to utilize empirically supported, evidence based treatments. That's part of the code of ethics for therapy is not to do woo, not to do folk, you know, folk stuff, New agey stuff. It's, you know, what treatments have been found to be effective with panic disorder or OCD or eating disorders or ptsd. They're gonna use empirically supported treatments. And when it comes to your inner voice, they're not gonna be telling you what you should think or feel, telling you what your value should be. They're gonna be asking you to tune into your inner voice and to get to know your own internal voice and your own value system, not try and impose one upon you, you. So in this case, Kevin was probably right to feel like there was something off with this group, but the group was asking him to silence and ignore his inner voice. And that should be an alarm. A good therapist won't do that, I think. Okay, let's keep going,

Guest 3 [01:30:22] Ruby. Then we went on a trip with them, Hannah's, to the UK in October of 2019. And I swear the whole objective of the trip was to like, convince me to get into connections because all of them were in it except me. And, and. But you know, they made some really eloquent arguments and I agreed to just join a men's group with Jody in January of 2020. And I would do it for three months. So I started that men's group in 2020. And you know, the group, I don't know if you've ever been like an addiction recovery group, but that's what it was. That's what it felt like. I mean, There were probably 10 men in there. It was on zoom. All of them were like working through, you know, various stages of like, sex addiction, porn addiction, drug addiction. And it was just, it was like a 12 step group, but intended just for general, like, addiction recovery. And I really was like, what the hell am I doing here? Like, I don't belong here. But everybody was like, no, come here. Like, you can learn to have a better, like, life and a better marriage. And so I, I thought, okay, whatever. I went through my, my three, you know, obligatory three months and I was ready to leave. And then I got challenged to,

John Dehlin [01:32:04] oh, thank you.

Guest 3 [01:32:05] And then I got, I got challenged to sit down and have a vulnerable conversation with my wife and ask her how my lustful choices have affected her. And, you know, to me, that was like a loaded question. I thought, you know, I still didn't see what I had done or anything that would constitute any form of, like, you know, abuse or anything like that. But I did. I took the challenge, and I sat down and for two hours, Ruby, very emotionally just shared how she felt in our marriage and how the things that I. Over 20 years of marriage, you know, asking for sex as a husband frequently, or asking her to wear laundry lingerie or things like that, how that made her feel. And it was really emotional, and it touched me. Like, I didn't realize that she felt so strongly about that, that she felt so hurt by that. And so I committed that I would really give it a go. And I stayed in the men's group. And so, you know, in that men's group, I met with. With Jody every week with the other men that were in the group. And then it got weird because.

Addiction Recovery Groups and Their Misuse

John Dehlin [01:33:34] Okay, so, Janae, one of the reasons I was so excited to have you on is because you were in these groups and these groups, clearly, it was like a weird ripoff of the Alcoholics Anonymous 12 step groups, but with a really interesting flair. So can you kind of tell us how these groups were structured? Who was leading them, if you remember how much they cost, but also the accountability part, which I think was kind of weird.

Janae Thompson [01:34:04] Yeah. So if I remember right, they were a few hundred dollars a month, and that was for four sessions of group therapy. I think they averaged out to a little less than $100 per group meet per person. And I remember doing the math, you know, there's 10 people here. How much is she making tonight? Like, that's kind of a lot, you

John Dehlin [01:34:22] know, like a thousand an hour. It's like a thousand an hour.

Janae Thompson [01:34:24] And I was like, wow, she's got a setup here, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] But she's not in the group, so she was.

Janae Thompson [01:34:31] She moderated every group I was in, and I think she moderated a lot of them herself.

John Dehlin [01:34:36] I do know that some of them she wasn't there and didn't have licensed therapists leading them.

Janae Thompson [01:34:41] Yeah. And she was at every single one that I was in, with the exception of maybe one on a night she couldn't make it or something. So she was moderating my group every time. And the women's group, there were four main groups that she was the moderator of for every single session of each of those groups. And there were probably other groups where she wasn't, but. And, you know, we would come. We would report how many phone calls we'd made. We'd report how many relapses we'd had based on the goals that we had for the, you know, addictions we were trying to overcome.

John Dehlin [01:35:15] What were some of the addictions she would highlight for people?

Janae Thompson [01:35:19] It could be anything.

John Dehlin [01:35:21] Cause when I think, what? Meth, cocaine?

Janae Thompson [01:35:24] No, my addiction that I was working on in the group was yelling at my kids. So as a single mom, I was yelling at my kids more than I wanted to. And so that's what I chose as my goal, to reduce the amount of times I yelled at my kids. And so if I got angry, there was a couple other terms that she used, I can't remember. But one of them was, you know, if you yelled, that was a relapse. But if you got close, there was another word she called that was, you know, like, how many of these almost did you have? And I wish I could remember the vocabulary, but I don't. But it was all addiction recovery vocabulary with that. Other addictions were that. I mean, just some of the goals I remember other women having were. One of them was, you know, to not chew ice. If I chew ice, then I've had a relapse. Brushing my teeth, going to bed at a certain time, Just things like that. And she would take these things and frame them as if, because you're not doing these, or because this is what you're not very good at, it's an addiction that you have that's causing you to sabotage yourself. And so your addiction is sabotaging yourself. And so, you know, there was all sorts of different things. And actually, in the women's group, there wasn't a lot around sexuality unless it was with one of the women and their interactions with their spouse. That's where the sexualized parts of our women's group would get more about, you know, okay, my recommendation is hold a boundary with him or kick him out of the bedroom or, you know. And she would give these recommendations within the group when it came to sexuality within a partnership.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] Okay, really quickly, how did the accountability buddies and the phone calls work?

Janae Thompson [01:37:03] So we were required to make three phone calls a day, and it was whenever we had a trigger. So to who? To other people in the group. And we could intermix with people in other groups for the phone calls. So it wasn't just people in our group, but the men could only call men, and women could only call women. So I couldn't call someone in a men's group around a trigger.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] So you were Assigned another group member to be your accountability buddy?

Janae Thompson [01:37:26] No, it could just be anybody in the group willing to take phone calls. So within the groups, there's maybe 20. Between the two women's group, there's 20 participants. So I could call any of the 20, but you would have to, you know, opt in and give permission and say, yes, I'm willing to make phone calls. And some people said, no, I don't want phone calls from you, or, you know, so it was very consensual in that way that, you know, it. You were technically required to take three phone calls a day and make three phone calls a day. So this is six phone calls a day you're supposed to make to participate fully in the group.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] And what are the nature of these calls?

Janae Thompson [01:38:00] So if I say, back to my example, my goal is not to yell at my kids as much. So if I start to feel myself get angry and I'm about to yell at my kids, that's when I pick up the phone and say, hey, I'm having this trigger. Help me work through it.

John Dehlin [01:38:15] So other group members are being used to help you manage your, your impulses?

Janae Thompson [01:38:20] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] Okay.

Janae Thompson [01:38:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:22] And obviously, for the men, it was less benign, inappropriate things as far as just like, sadness or depression or whatever. It's. For the men, it was probably mostly temptations to masturbate or look at porn. So they'd be calling their accountability buddies and say, either, hey, I'm clean, or, oh, I really want to masturbate and look at pornography, or, oops, I goofed up. And if you reported to a fellow group member that you relapsed, what would happen then?

Janae Thompson [01:38:56] Well, we were supposed to kind of go through the principles that we were learning in the class. And honestly, I mean, these are all people without any credentials, really, to handle these issues. And we're kind of being put in a position where it's like, kind of act like a therapist. Like, ask them if they're in truth. Ask them what their distortions are. You know, and these are the, this is the vocabulary that Jodi has around these things. And Natasha's over here shaking her head. I know, exactly. I mean, coming to you, Natasha, I'm right now in a room with two, you know, credentialed therapists. So let's be clear. I'm the lay person here, but they're in the group. They're saying, call these people within your group and work through your triggers, you know, and then they're supposed to give you therapeutic advice.

John Dehlin [01:39:39] Yeah. And just, just, I, I, I am not currently licensed by choice, but Natasha is licensed. But I have the full training of a full fledged psychologist, so I have the training. Natasha, what is it? So you were laughing about the truth and distortion thing, but also I want to hear about a applying the addiction model to things like yelling at your kids or having a bad day or whatever. And then also the ethics of these accountability buddies and like making and receiving a total of six calls a day per group member. What are your reactions to all that?

Natasha Helfer [01:40:15] Well, I probably do laugh, but to tell you the truth, I mean, I have like this like pit in my stomach that is just kind of more like a disgust reaction. Right. And so, yeah, I laugh a lot through my reactions, but it's not because it's funny. Right? It's really quite tragic. Yeah. Like addiction to chewing ice. I mean, I'm just like, goodness, grief. It's interesting that even in the substance abuse realm where so much of this addiction language came from, there's quite a shift in language and treatment and how people are perceiving this whole issue. Because one of the pervasive issues with addiction model language and addiction model kind of. Well, the whole modality is that once an addict, always an addict. I think most of you could rehearse that. If your head said once an addict, most of you could say, oh yeah, always an addict. And so again, you're looking at human behavior through this lens of disease and like terminal diagnosis. Like, this is a forever thing that I have to manage now. Most of us, yeah, we do have to manage. We have to manage emotions, we have to manage our behaviors. That is kind of part of the human dilemma. But to look at it through that lens of disease and that there's something inherently wrong with me that can only be cured through these other things, leaves you in a very vulnerable position as far as your own identity work. And it actually goes against resilience and most of the principles that we know about what it actually means to improve your life and to make shifts and changes in our behavior, which I would think most of us can think of one behavior right now. I would like to yell at my kids less. I would like to not bite my nails. There's lots of things that I can think I'm consistently trying to improve upon. But when we take shame tactics and disease model tactics, we actually have quite a bit of research to show that that worsens behavior. That worsens behavior. And I've talked to so many people that have gone to 12 step groups of all kinds, right. Whether it's food related sex, Related, Drug related. And most people do say, well, you know, I can't lie. There was a part of that that was very useful. And so when I ask more about that, without fail, the part that was useful was the community. That's what was useful. Not so much all this other stuff, right, about what you were taught and all the language about relapse and triggers, in fact, that actually increased anxiety, those parts of things, increased anxiety, which when we have increased anxiety, our nervous system wants to decrease it. And therefore we're often going to go back to the behaviors that we find soothing, and they're not always the behaviors we want to be engaging in. So even when the addiction is legitimate, like meth or something like that, we're finding that this language isn't always the best model. And that's an interesting thing that's happening currently in the research around this. So to use this kind of approach for any behavior, and especially behaviors that are fairly normative and normal, but to see yourself as diseased, ill, sick, which I think also speaks to the perfectionism we find in Mormonism and how people want to be perfect and, and want to consistently be improving and be perfected unto Christ and all of these things. You just have a very vulnerable population that will consistently berate themselves. And perfectionism, quite frankly, I mean, the more I look at it, it's ocd. It's a form of mental. A lot of people have physical compulsions like washing their hands and things like that. But when you have scrupulosity, it's really mental comp. Compulsions. So you're keeping track in your mind how often you're doing something, how often. And. And the perfectiveness in that is really a trait of ocd.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:44:34] And I. I observed a lot just this hyper focus on these behaviors. It did seem to make it the focus, which then I felt like increased the behaviors and, and almost created drama around it to come back to the group and, you know, validate the drama within this. Whereas, you know, now I look at things and I ask myself, how can I accept this? And the acceptance allows it to be. And when you let it just be, it doesn't happen as much. You know, I don't berate myself for yelling at my kids anymore. I hardly ever yell at my kids because it is something that I really don't want to do. I don't want to treat them with my own emotional insecurities in that way. So I've found tools, you know, to help me do that. I take a time out. I do this I do that. And that all came after the group because that was not helpful in that particular thing. But when I accepted, look, I'm a mom, things get stressful, I am going to yell at my kids sometimes I thought, wow, that's normal behavior. Okay. And I'm still an okay person.

John Dehlin [01:45:34] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:45:35] And then the behavior naturally stopped being as, you know, as much or decreased. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:42] And I. Dad, in terms of the accountability buddies and having to call non trained, untrained, unlicensed accountability buddies, it goes back to this dual relationship thing. So if Jody's got this business model where she's requiring people that see her go to these group sessions, she's making up to a thousand bucks an hour. She's having the members of the group provide services to other members of the group. And it's not, you know, it may be optional, but it's kind of. It seems like, I'm guessing people were pressured to both report to an accountability buddy, but also to be an accountability buddy.

Guest 3 [01:46:20] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:46:20] Well, and then in the group, we would be required to tell how many phone calls we've made. So, you know, what's three times seven is 21. You're supposed to make 21 calls. So if you say, you know, I made 15 calls this week, it's like, well, why didn't you make your 21 in front of the whole group?

John Dehlin [01:46:35] Yeah. And basically just these group members are unpaid staff at the end of the day, providing services where they're not getting paid, but they're also not trained. And then they're enforcing Jody's bizarre and in many cases, damaging rules or policies. And we'll be getting that in just a second.

Janae Thompson [01:46:56] Right. And the rationale behind that was, you know, this is an opportunity for you to learn more in depth. Depth. What it is we're talking about in group, because you'll be able to practice it. So it's that principle of if you want to learn something, teach it. Right. Which there's some truth in that.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:47:09] So it's taken and applied here where it's like this. This is like pretty intense stuff that you should probably be credentialed for.

John Dehlin [01:47:16] Yeah. The only other thing I'll add is that I remember in 2008, 2009, the Mormon Church officially adopted the Alcoholics Anonymous model with a little Mormon spiritual twist. I think they. Maybe they added a 13th step or something, but they started calling them addiction recovery groups. And members of the church would be called as, again, many of them untrained non professionals. They'd be called to lead these Addiction recovery groups. And you could go all over the United States and probably outside on any given week and be attending these Mormon Church sponsored addiction recovery groups where literal child abusers and pedophiles and drug users were intermingled with, you know, young adults or adults that were literally masturbating once every three weeks. And so I guess I'm saying that Jody, I'm sure, felt emboldened and licensed to apply this addiction recovery model to all sorts of things that she shouldn't have because the Mormon Church was doing it. Am I wrong, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:48:25] No, that's correct. And I do want to point out that that's really how the AA program work. When you go to an AA meeting, it's not a licensed therapist who's holding that meeting. That whole program is set up really as communal support, you know, by people who have been through the issues and are supporting other people through those same issues. So, yes, the church, basically my main understanding of why the church did that was because a lot of people who were being treated as addicts in the church would be sent to programs, 12 step programs, where the behavior that they were met with in those programs was much more extreme than the behavior that they were themselves doing. And so now they were, they were privy to bad influences. Because if you go to a program where somebody's really talking about their cocaine addiction or how they've seen three sex workers in the past week, even though they're married and it's not part of their contract, and you've got a 19 year old who's, like you said, John, masturbating in the last three months, now he has a lot of information that is influencing him. And, and I think that's what the church was worried about. So it is interesting that in the church people are getting sent to these quote, unquote addiction programs for behavior that in mainstream America nobody would count as addictive to begin with.

Janae Thompson [01:49:55] Well, and I think it creates a lot of opportunity for predatory behavior within those groups because you've got some dangerous people that have addictions, like legitimate addictions. And like you said, you're mixing them with these young, impressionable people. And to me, that's just a recipe for disaster.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] Yeah.

Kevin Describes Marriage Breakdown and Isolation

Natasha Helfer [01:50:15] Now, are we going to talk briefly about what he had to say in regards to this conversation he had with his wife and what she was upset about?

Guest 3 [01:50:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] So what did you remember and what bothered you about the conversation Ruby had with Kevin?

Natasha Helfer [01:50:28] Yeah. So I think going back to your initial context and how you set up this interview, so we now start to see how they're having a marital problem through the context of the LDS church. Right. So why is Ruby upset with her husband? And it sounds like she's upset because, one, he's the main initiator of the sexuality that's happening in their marriage. The second thing is that he's bringing up suggestions like, hey, would you be willing to wear a lingerie? Or you know, do something, something Sexy? Or the 500 things a partner might say, hey, are you interested in this or would you do this? And then third was kind of his, again, lustful thoughts and how this all impacted her. And when we look at how LDS structure supports marriage, heterosexual marriage between a man and a woman, the woman is kind of brought up to believe that her role is a gatekeeper. And you know, like you brought up earlier that, you know, we're to be modesty, policing ourselves so that we're not necessarily feeling like we're enhancing this lustfulness from men. And men are taught to basically tamp, you know, tamp down their lustfulness, don't be lustful. And so this sets up some really big problems right from the get go for most LDS marriages, right, where there's really no skill to sexually negotiate. There's no skill to really understand how two people's different drives, needs, desires, preferences, erotic templates might be negotiated. I think there can be room for coercion and for exploitation, especially by a higher drive spouse, and especially if the spouse is a male who sees it as his responsibility to be the initiator and then can be very hurt and be punishing sometimes if he doesn't quote, unquote, get what he wants. But it also kind of is like erect, an otomie or whatever of women who are like, oh, if I do something sexy or if you want me to look sexy or if you want me to be sexual, that must mean you're objectifying me. And this is not the right way to be sexual. And so just, it just really dampens the whole erotic energy and drive of two people who really need a lot more skill set and consent and in negotiation and in sexual education as to these things being normative and that nobody's entitled to your sexuality. And I think this is, I mean, this is tender to talk about because on the one hand we talk a lot about patriarchy and we talk about a lot of like, privilege that men have in the church and how they can show up in coercive ways. But the fact that both you said and that he said that this was like man hating clubs, I think sometimes we forget the impact of benevolent patriarchy and how actually women can be quite abusive in their tactics because they feel that they have a right to control another person's mind and body. They're explicitly taught that. So again, I'm not saying that women are just out there being abusers, but we're taught to be very controlling of another person's ability to touch their own body, what they can think about, what they can do in their own free time, like whether or not they watch sexually explicit media in ways that we would never really allow for men to get away with. Right. If a man's like, well, I don't want you using a sex toy, or I don't want you masturbating, or, I don't want you reading your romantic novels, we would see that as controlling behavior. And yet we allow women to get away with this and not only allow them to get away with it, explicitly promote it in a way that actually falls under controlling and abusive behavior in the domestic violence power wheel. And that's something we are not addressing in our culture.

Janae Thompson [01:54:25] And I also want to point out on the flip side of this interaction that they're having, Kevin is talking about how connecting this experience was where he could actually ask his wife these questions, and she was giving him information that apparently, you know, he hadn't had for 20 years. And to me, what that says is, there's two things happening. First of all, for whatever reason, it wasn't safe to communicate those needs and the things within the sexual relationship for that long. And why is that? You know, and I can't help but ask. Well, because we're not supposed to talk about sex. That's why, you know, as Mormons. So then you get into these marriages, and your whole life, you're said, sex is bad. You're told, sex is bad. Don't do it. It's awful. It's next to murder. And then you get married, and it's like, okay, now it's great. Go ahead and have sex. And, you know, we go into these relationships without any training, without the skills to communicate. And. And then we're taught, you know, if you dress in modestly, you're objectifying yourself. And so if your husband wants you to now dress in these things, you're objectifying yourself. And so then you're hurt because you're having this interaction with your husband, spouse because you don't know how to talk about it. And yet through this interaction, there's all this truth coming out, and there's this connection, and it's like, this is what real communication within a marriage should look like. Ongoing, not after 20 years. And so then it really sets the stage for Kevin to really be victimized, in my opinion, around, okay, we had this really positive interaction. This has helped our marriage so much. And then it's going to, again, in my opinion, empower Ruby to say, okay, actually, now here's how I'm going to control all of the sex. And so it's not setting this couple up for success, it's setting them up for failure.

John Dehlin [01:56:04] And another way to just say all this is get a licensed sex therapist. If you've got sexual dysfunction in your marriage, don't go to a life coach. Don't go to even a LCSW or a PhD psychologist if they're not trained in sex therapy because it's its own specialty. Am I wrong, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:56:23] No, you're not wrong. I mean, this is a really big issue as a marriage and family therapist. I was not trained in human sexuality. I mean, that's just kind of mind boggling. And it wasn't until I went and got my ASEX certification training that I realized how harmful I could have been and probably was prior to having that type of training. Because eroticism gets villainized even in kind of basic relationships. And all of these ideas of who's navigating who and who's fighting for what you've got everything from duty sex to coercions to sexless marriages. And all of those are really about power differentials in regards to sexuality. And when you have therapists who either don't have sex sex therapy training or who have their own religious biases or their own ideas about what healthy marriage, quote, unquote, should look like, it can really cause ruckus for couples for sure.

John Dehlin [01:57:24] All right, so let's jump back to the video. Kevin just started talking about how he agreed to continue with connections and then how things got weird. So let's tuned back in weird because

Guest 3 [01:57:41] our marriage felt like it was getting better and stronger. So this was now, you know, summer and fall of 2020 and. And in addition to that, there was the whole YouTube cancel thing. I don't know how much you guys are even interested or aware of that, but in May of 2020, some videos that Ruby released on that dealt with Chad just blew up in her face. And it was all over the news and hundreds of thousands of tick tockers and all this stuff were just piling on and basically burned down like our YouTube channel. And overnight, like the income went, you know, we lost 90% of the income overnight. And that was hard. Was this, like, the. Which episode was this? Was this the one where they talked about, like, the beanbag or. Okay, yeah, yeah. And then they started going back and trying to dig and find. And then they'd find these little nuggets like, oh, look, they. You've went to school without a lunch or one day or you know, stuff like that. But it was the beanbag video that really set people up. And then they went back from there. Okay. So at that time, Ruby was really distraught and she was looking for support. She was looking for someone who would understand her, who. Who would validate her. And she found that in Jody, Jod. All the stuff she did with Chad and was because of Jody. And so it makes sense that she would go to Jod, you know, for emotional support when she felt like her world was burning down. In the meantime, like, our. I felt like our marriage was. Was getting stronger. It felt better. Like we. We didn't fight as much. Even though we were having less sex, it felt more connecting. And it was just. I thought, wow, this is great. Like, you know, this is great. And I was happy to be the guy up on the stage. You know, that started sometime like late 2020 or the fall of 2020. There would be a conference and Ruby would say, I thought we were just attending it. But then she'd say, hey, they wanted us to get up and tell our story. You know, I'm like, okay, sure. So I get up and just say, like, yeah, I was the guy who said, I think this is a bunch of like, you know, man hating, you know, women. But it really has made a difference in my marriage. And it really did. Like, I believe it. And so those conferences and stuff, everything continued like that until March of 2021, when after a conference at a connections conference down in St. George, all the, the, like the inner circle, all the. The people who were being trained as mental fitness coaches and stuff. So that was Ruby, a bunch of other people and their spouses. We went out to a dinner afterwards, and that's where Jody really opened up to the women in a private conversation that she believed she was being tormented and hungry, haunted by shadow figures every night. And that was spooky, you know, and I don't know exactly what happened, but the Hannah's do. All I know is at some point within a couple days of that, in that month of March, they. The Hannah drove down from Mapleton and picked Jody up and brought her back to their home in Mapleton. And she lived for six weeks in that home in Mapleton. And this is where, like, I don't know what happened, but I do know that there's two different sides of stories. They tried to introduce her to a new cult lady that the Hannah's were getting into. So they wanted to merge their cults into one, apparently. And maybe.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] So I don't totally know some of this backstory here, but I do want to just address a couple things really quickly. So this idea of spirits and evil spirits and demons, we've talked a lot about that as it relates to Chad Deba, Lori Valo, but I just want to lay it straight for those who have never been Mormon and don't know it is absolutely fundamental core Mormon doctrine. Well, first it's Christian doctrine. You know, there's the teaching of Jesus meeting a man, I think, who is possessed, and then Jesus cast the demons out of of the man, and the demons, like, ran into a bunch of pigs and the pigs jumped off a cliff. So, like, this starts with Jesus teaching that there were demonic spirits and that they could possess humans and also animals. Mormonism takes it to 11 because the Mormon Church literally teaches that Heavenly God, Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother or mothers all existed before this earth even existed, had had billions and billions of spiritual children. And in this debate up in heaven about how earth should be basically Lucifer and a third of all of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother's children, as spirits, were cast out of heaven, sent down to earth to then literally possess and try to persuade Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother's righteous children to do evil. And so Mormons believe that we are constantly surrounded by evil spirits trying to tempt us to do bad. This is not like fringe Mormon doctrine. This is core Mormon doctrine. If you go to the Mormon Temple and go through the Mormon Temple ceremony, you literally have like, Peter or Peter, James and John casting Satan out of the garden by raising his right hand to the square. If you go to lds.org right now or whatever the website is called, churchofjesuschrist.org, you can look up casting out demons, and you'll see, like, graphical images of, like, you know, Mormon priesthood holding men casting demons out. And then you'll find many, many, many scriptures that say Mormon priesthood power. One of the features of Mormon priesthood power is the ability to cast out demons. So I just want to make sure people understand that's core Mormon doctrine or theology. Janae and Natasha, do you guys have anything to add to that? Am I wrong?

Demons, Exorcism, and Fringe Mormon Belief

Janae Thompson [02:05:10] No, I mean, that's accurate. And I would also say, you know, As I interacted with Jodi, she would bring up quite regularly, you know, there's these evil forces after us and we've got to fight evil and we've got to, you know, all this stuff about evil and Satan and, you know, it was odd.

John Dehlin [02:05:30] Yeah. And Natasha, I want to just ask you, number one, the ethics of interjecting this idea of evil demonic spirits into questions of mental health. What are the ethics of that? And then for whatever reason, if Jody is feeling haunted by demons, what are the ethics of her sharing that with her clients and, and then eventually moving in with one of her clients to help her cope with her demons? And I don't mean spiritual, I don't mean like metaphorical demons, I mean real demons.

Natasha Helfer [02:06:05] Yeah, I would agree that even. I would agree with everything you said, John. Although I would say in mainstream Latter Day Saint land, this isn't talked about much. Right. Most people are not talking about demons, but we are talking about evil spirits. And I think most people are thinking of Satan. Right. When they're talking about that. Regardless the ethics, I would say it's very different when somebody's coming into my space with their religious beliefs, their religious ideas, and they might talk about demonic influences. And then there is a challenge there to assess, okay, is this person schizophrenic or is this person functioning under a belief system, like a religious system where the, this actually makes perfect sense to them and they're not really under a mental disorder. So that's the job of the therapist. What is never appropriate is for the therapist to then, you know, impart their religious beliefs onto their clients. And this is something that I see happening non stop, maybe not with something as difficult as demons and evil spirits, but this is something that I see both Christian and Latter Day Saint therapists doing all the time, assuming, for example, that there is a God, assuming that their God is the right God and imposing that God and those belief systems into the therapeutic process. And that is highly unethical, the moving in with your client. Yeah, I don't even know that I need to say much about that. I think most people can think that's highly unethical behavior.

Janae Thompson [02:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:34] And you can lose your license for something like that, right?

Natasha Helfer [02:07:37] Oh yeah. I mean, yeah, that's like, that's up there with, you know, having sex with your clients. And yeah, I mean, I, you know, I remember a colleague one time being in trouble for I think just bartering grass mowing with, you know, their client couldn't afford therapy. And so they said, well, why don't you do this service instead. And they got in trouble for that. So that's much less than moving in

John Dehlin [02:08:03] with your clothes client and burdening. And burdening your client with your own mental illness. Right. Like clients don't need the burden of, to carry the burden of their therapists while they're carrying their own burdens. Right.

Natasha Helfer [02:08:18] And not only their mental illness, but their religious beliefs.

John Dehlin [02:08:21] Yeah, yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:08:22] And that's a huge red flag to me if like, obviously Jody's struggling with things and she's opening up to people who she feels like, you know, could tell to be a safe space for her maybe. But to me, the ethical thing that should have happened then is, you know, somebody should have said, you need to see a mental health professional. Because in my mind the first thing I go to is like, that sounds like schizophrenia or bipolar, you know, and of course I can't diagnose that, but to me it's like you need a professional to look at that. This is not my job.

John Dehlin [02:08:54] Or borderline personality disorder.

Janae Thompson [02:08:56] Exactly.

Guest 3 [02:08:57] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:08:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:58] Okay. So, yeah. So now Jody Hildebrandt's moved in with Paige and Johnny Hannah and they're trying to merge a couple cults. And I don't know what the other cult is, I don't know if it's Julie Row, I don't know who it is. But weird prepper kind of culty Mormon fringe beliefs. So let's keep rolling the tape.

Guest 3 [02:09:20] Refer to it as a cold. Oh no, no one in a cold says I'm in a cult. From your perspective, it looks like two cult leaders merging together. From where I stand now, absolutely. According to Jody, she was held against her will for six weeks and was kidnapped and she escaped and got out. According to the Hannah's after six weeks of jod, Jody stabbing herself with forks and knives, cutting herself and wanting to commit suicide and trying to seduce the husband of the family. They kicked her out. I don't know what's the truth. Maybe a little bit of both, I don't know. But the point is, somewhere around mid April, Jody was back in her home in Ivan's and she was a hot mess. Ass.

John Dehlin [02:10:16] I'm just going to say I don't. I. I'm not buying that the Hannah's kidnapped Jody.

Janae Thompson [02:10:22] No, but how funny is it that she's claiming that and then takes children legitimately against their will and holds them?

John Dehlin [02:10:30] Yeah, it's projection.

Natasha Helfer [02:10:31] Yeah, well, you see a lot of this. Like she's, she's trying to seduce people. You know, she's being so stringent with people for masturbating. But then she's in the bed with Ruby, she's seducing husbands. Right. So this is something. See a lot with these kind of charismatic leader type people is that whatever they're preaching, they themselves are doing those same things like tenfold.

Self-Harm, Diagnoses, and Cult Dynamics

John Dehlin [02:10:55] And Natasha, in terms of diagnoses and diagnosing, Jody, potentially, when you hear about self harm parasuicidal behavior, what do you think of? What sort of diagnosis do you think of?

Natasha Helfer [02:11:09] Yeah, quite frankly, with everything I'm hearing here, I would feel like I was out of my scope and I would want them to go get a psychological evaluation done by a PhD clinician who does psychological testing. That's how severe these things are. That I, even though I have diagnostic capacity, there's so much comorbidity here with so many different diagnostic criteria that I would really want clinical testing done.

John Dehlin [02:11:33] Yeah. And for me, I do have that training as a Psychology PhD. Self harm Parasuicidal threats generally are associated with borderline personality disorder.

Janae Thompson [02:11:46] And just from a layperson perspective, to me, that is huge cries for help. And she needs to be in an institution that can help her with that

John Dehlin [02:11:54] versus mentoring and coaching and providing therapy

Janae Thompson [02:11:57] at a friend's house.

Natasha Helfer [02:11:59] But there's a level of psychosis here that I think even goes beyond borderline personality disorder. Right. And so that's why, I mean, I would, my guess is that there would be like three to five diagnoses here.

John Dehlin [02:12:10] That's why I say minimum. Minimum.

Janae Thompson [02:12:13] Well, and, and can we also address that there's children in this home and, you know, she's in this home with these children. I mean, that is just sending red flags all over the place for me.

John Dehlin [02:12:24] Yeah. And that's why we try to talk about how to identify a cult or, you know, high demand religion here in Mormon stories, because you can leave a high demand religion and fall into another cult, whether it's a yogi, you know, a yoga leader, whether it's a education or a self improvement organization, an mlm, an unhealthy mlm, even an abusive relationship. It's important to be able to identify the characteristics of a unhealthy organization or group. So, all right, let's keep going with the story.

Guest 3 [02:13:03] And she reached out to Ruby for help. And Ruby, Ruby was always jealous of the Hannahs, that they had a better relationship with Jody than she did. Ruby. And this is like, goes back to her childhood. She wanted to be the best friend, she wanted to be the most liked. She, she wanted to be the one that everybody knew. And so it hurt her that she felt like she was being excluded from what was going on at the Hannah's house. And then she'd say, why so many secrets? And the Hannah's would say, it's not secret, it's sacred. And when the time's right, you can know, too. So. So we went down to Jody's house in May of 2021. That was the first time I've ever been there. And it blew my mind. As you, I'm sure you have walked in there and gone. How does a therapist live like this? Like, does it really make sense to me? But we were there and she opened up and talked about her struggles and what was going on. And I gotta say, like, I'm a smart guy. I'm an engineer. I designed and helped build some really big stuff. I've been a college professor. I can't explain some of the stuff that happened while we were there. Like crashes in the basement while we were talking upstairs, and plates, like, in the kitchen just flying off by themselves, like, full speed, smashing on the wall and falling through the floor by themselves. I can't explain it, but I saw it with my own eyes and. And I don't have any way to explain it other than there's some crazy going on. Ruby was convinced that we could intervene and help Jody.

John Dehlin [02:15:18] Okay, really quick.

Guest 3 [02:15:19] I didn't want anything to do with it. I tried to.

John Dehlin [02:15:21] So y' all were making some pretty big faces there. I mean, it sounds like poltergeist stuff. You know, on the one hand, I. I was taught that again, demonic spirits. Right. But why, Janae? Why were you?

Janae Thompson [02:15:34] Well, you know, I've been really open my whole life to, you know, like, really believing this kind of stuff, and I have never in my life seen anything like that. Also, never in my life have I seen an angel or Jesus or any of those things that, you know, it's been said if you follow these patterns, you can see. And so, you know, when I hear experiences like this, I used to believe it and wish that I could experience things like that. Demonic or angelic. It's just like, oh, I just want to experience it, you know, and it's never happened, you know, and that's where I have to step really fully into reality and say, okay, you know, he's stating, you know, I'm a smart guy. I'm really logical. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it. But I saw it with my own eyes. And to me, I'm thinking, I just. I've Never seen anything like that. I've never actually met anyone who really legitimately has said I seen this ever. So as far as credibility, I find it just really hard to believe that that's reality.

John Dehlin [02:16:36] And not to disagree with you, but I will say I have met a lot of Mormons who. Who would tell stories like that. Not. I wouldn't say it's 50%, but maybe 10%.

Janae Thompson [02:16:47] Yeah. And I. And I've heard a lot of those stories, but I usually find that, you know, if. If you look into why those things are happening, I couldn't speak to a. A plate flying off the shelf, and you're seeing it floating, like that's. If you're actually seeing that, okay, that's pretty intense. But if you're hearing a crash downstairs, you know, a lot of times when I hear stuff like that, I would have said, oh, maybe it's this thing. And now as an adult, I'll go and look and see. And, you know, there was just something teetering on the edge that had been scooted and scooted, and finally, you know, maybe there was just like, a door opened quickly and the wind came in and changed the pressure in the house, and it fell out off, and there was a crash. And it's very explainable why things like that happen. And so for people to get into groups and project things around, like, just. There's a logical answer to this, but they're all getting together and saying, oh, it's. It's demonic spirits, and it's this religious experience that, you know, I can help you with. It's just creating breeding grounds for all of these illogical beliefs to be inserted in there, and then everybody starts validating each other, and that is just so overly dangerous.

John Dehlin [02:17:53] Natasha, what do you think of when you hear about plates crashing and floating and that sort of thing?

Natasha Helfer [02:18:00] Yeah, it's very difficult for me to believe that those things are actually happening. And we have so many studies of unethical studies back in the 70s and 80s where groups, you know, groups of people were put together and all kinds of wonky things started happening. You know, again, this. We're very malleable in our minds. We can be easily manipulated. I mean, I think as human beings, we need to have that humility. We can be easily manipulated.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Even university professors at byu.

Natasha Helfer [02:18:32] Even university professors at byu. Even me. Even you, John. Like, all of us.

John Dehlin [02:18:38] Wait, what? Now you've gone too far. Okay, but. But I'm gonna blow your mind, Janae. I'm gonna blow Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [02:18:45] Okay? Blow our mind.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] I'm gonna read you guys from Mormon Scripture. And maybe you guys already know this, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna act like it's gonna blow your mind anyway. So this is Doctrine and covenants section 129. It's currently, you know, Mormon scripture. This is currently Mormon doctrine. I'm going to read to you from orthodox Mormon scripture. Okay, here we go. This is current Mormon scripture D&C, 129. One, there are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely angels, who are resurrected personages having bodies of flesh and bones. For instance, Jesus said, handle me and see me, for spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. Secondly, the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel, he will do so and you will feel his hand. But if he be the spirit of a just man made perfect, he will come in his glory, for that is the only way he can appear. Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive. But he will still deliver his message. If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands, he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything. You may therefore detect him. These are the three grand keys, whereby you may know whether any administration is from God. And this may sound silly, but this is the same book that has the doctrine, the Word of Wisdom, you know, the revelations about the three degrees of glory. Like this section of the Doctrine and Covenants has the same status as any Mormon doctrine. And it's right there. Ghosts shaking your hands, not shaking your hands, evil spirits, good spirits. That's mainstream Mormon doctrine. So can you blame a Mormon who might be a little bit more inclined towards believing in the supernatural, that they're going to take this stuff seriously when their own scripture has such kind of weird spiritual hokey pokey?

Spirit Possession Claims and Group Control

Janae Thompson [02:21:06] Yeah, well, I mean, I remember reading this and really trying to sort out in my mind, okay, the good one will shake your hand, but the other good one won't if they're not at a certain level, and the bad one will. And so I just remember thinking, how am I going to keep this straight? And when I meet this being, like, what am I going to do? And am I going to shake their hand? Right? You know, and I've never had to use any of that because I've never, you know, had somebody that wanted to shake my hand that was not alive anymore. I've never had that happen.

John Dehlin [02:21:35] But my point is, maybe in the 19th century, this kind of garbage was okay, but in the 21st century, the church needs to denounce Nephi chopping off Laban's head because the spirit told him to. The teachings in the Book of Mormon about black skin being a curse from God to make people of color dark and loathsome so the white people won't be attracted to them. Goofy teachings about the Spirit and, you know, there are teachings that are toxic and even deadly that we know are not true in the 21st century. And the church, in my opinion, has a moral and ethical responsibility to purge from its teachings and from its scriptures the ones that are leading to harmful beliefs or behaviors, in my opinion.

Janae Thompson [02:22:23] I agree with that.

John Dehlin [02:22:24] That's my opinion.

Janae Thompson [02:22:24] And teach things that are within the realm of presence and reality.

John Dehlin [02:22:29] Yeah. Natasha, are you.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:32] I would further that invitation to the Pope and to other evangelical leaders and to. So, I mean, this is. You can find things like this in the Bible, hands down in the Quran. Right? So, yes, this is. And people are still very vulnerable to these beliefs. And, you know, you just look at something like 9, 11 or things like that, where people are functioning from a belief system that makes sense to them and that damages lives irrevocably.

Guest 3 [02:23:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:05] Okay, let's keep going.

Guest 3 [02:23:08] See like a bishop involved and say, hey, go to like the priesthood and the church and all that stuff. Go to your support network. But Ruby continued to be like, no, we can help. Like, she doesn't want that. Could you imagine, like, what would happen to her reputation of this got out and stuff? Let's help her. So we. We went down like a couple more times between May and August, but it reached the point where in August, her bishop at the time, a guy named. Who's down there in Kayenta named Scott Galbraith. He's not our bishop anymore, but I mean, he was going over there like every night and he'd be there for like four hours and just. And he'd be like, yeah, I'm fighting you evil spirits. I'm casting demons out. Crazy stuff going on. And finally he got to the point where he's like, I can't do this anymore. There needs to be some sort of resolution. It was at that point that they said, why don't you take her up to your house? And I was like, oh, hell no. I don't want this in my house. But I was beaten over the head with it. Like, that's really insensitive, you know? Know, she's done so much to help our family, and you're being selfish, and she has needs, and come on, like, it won't be for long. And so I relented, and I was like, okay, actually, you know, this could kind of be fun. Let's just make it fun, and we'll, like, she needs a vacation, so we'll just go take drives up the canyon and stuff like that. And it turned into just a crazy house. The moment she showed up at my house house, just the weirdest crap started happening. Lights turning on and off. Said sounds of people walking in walls and, like, sounds like footprints going up walls and across the ceiling and stuff floating around. And it was just. It was weird, and I hated it. And I became the Resident exorcist. That was the title I kept up with myself. I thought it was kind of funny. But it was my job to, like, go and give her blessings whenever she started to, like, go into a trance and go into possession and. Which started to be a lot. And Ruby would go up and check on her. It started, like, four. Every four hours at night, and then it moved every two hours a night, and it moved every hour at night. And then at some point, Ruby said, you know what? I'm just going to start sleeping in there, and if I need you, I'll come down and get you. That's kind of weird, but okay. And that was that. They started sleeping in the same bed. And.

John Dehlin [02:25:52] So there we have it. Jodi Hildebrandt starts sleeping in the same bed as her client Ruby, and Kevin is kicked out. I mean, in effect, kicked out of his marital bed.

Janae Thompson [02:26:04] Like, Jody got the master bedroom. So they were both kicked out of their bedroom. And then Ruby got access to the bedroom again. And now Kevin's sitting here in his own home, kicked out of his bedroom, while these two women have overtaken the bedroom ethic.

John Dehlin [02:26:17] Check, Natasha, how's that for the ethics check?

Janae Thompson [02:26:20] That sounds ethical in your book, right?

Natasha Helfer [02:26:21] Yeah. It fails the ethics test. I know that I have really high expectations here for ethics things. It fails. But to your point, John, it's interesting to hear about this bishop even that comes in and is playing this exorcism role, which, again, in my experience, having been a member of the church for as long as I have been, I never heard of this kind of stuff. I heard of it, like, to your point, Janae, I never knew of anybody who was actually doing this kind of stuff. Right. And so it's Just interesting that everybody was kind of playing into this idea and trying to, again, treat it. Like we see many problems in the church through priesthood instead of mental health. Like, the priesthood will come in and solve the issue instead of referring this person to services that, who knows, may have helped or at least would have diagnosed or assessed things more correctly.

John Dehlin [02:27:19] Yeah. So the church could issue a global statement saying, if somebody claims to be possessed by a demon and get them to a licensed psychologist or therapist for treatment.

Janae Thompson [02:27:28] That would be an excellent thing to have as a standard.

John Dehlin [02:27:33] But the church doesn't do that, probably because they think, well, if Jesus cast out demons, then demons are real. And so we can't say that Jesus was practicing mental health.

Janae Thompson [02:27:43] No. And this experience, I mean, she's having somebody come over to her house every night. Again, I'm hearing this huge cry for help. Like, she's a single woman, lives alone in her house. She won't. Wants somebody to come over. You know, and you're going through these priesthood channels, so it's like she's asking somebody to come over and do something that she can't do herself because she doesn't have the priesthood. So it's creating this, you know, environment of importance and needing. And. And to me, it's. This sounds like a huge manipulation. And then on the other hand, with that, it's like these bishops are not. They're not trained to do things like this.

John Dehlin [02:28:17] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We. We recently interviewed a panel of Mormon bishops, and they get pretty much no training, let alone.

Janae Thompson [02:28:24] And I'm thinking this man is being taken away from his family for hours a night because there's this woman that's just desperate and literally needs mental help. Yeah. And, you know, he's in this position where he's called, so it's his responsibility to take. Like, he's not qualified for that.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] Yeah. Now, you know, the. I'll broach on a subject that's really sensitive, and it's almost impossible to talk about this topic perfectly. But when I interviewed Jesse Hildebrandt, Jody's niece, Jesse certainly wondered whether Jody herself was on some part of the LGBTQ spectrum. And this is not to in any way try and be stereotypical or stereotypically describe lesbians, for example, or bisexual people or whatever. But, like, what people? What I'm hearing journalists and others say is, well, she hated men. And, you know, she got divorced pretty quickly from her husband, and she, you know, you know, even by Jesse's account, she displayed many behaviors that in even Jesse's mind and Some people associate with being lesbian, although we know the gender binary is problematic and gaydar is not necessarily real. And you should never sort of say, oh, he's this way or she's that way, therefore they're gay or lesbian. Having said all that, if this is culminating, if her mental health problems, if she's self harming, if she's obsessing about talking about sex all the time, and then by her own histrionic, she's ending up in bed with a woman or other women, you have to ask whether maybe she was repressing her own sexuality. And that's speculation, and you shouldn't do that. But everybody's asking that question, including people on my chat right now. So, Natasha, do you have a response to that? I know it's a tricky thing to talk about.

Natasha Helfer [02:30:23] Yeah, I think there could be a lot of things this could be. It could be one factor. I know that our LGBTQ community in the church suffers tremendously, tremendously. And especially at the age that Jodi is. She would have been raised in a very. In a space where, you know, we had just zero tolerance. We still pretty much have zero tolerance for LGBTQ folks in our community. And when you are asked to suppress a part of yourself that is so paramount to your identity, of course that's going to lead to internalized shame, internalized psychological illness. And we know that LGBTQ folks who come from these kinds of religious backgrounds do suffer with complex ptsd, do suffer from all kinds of conversion therapy. That's another type of therapy we haven't really addressed yet today. That's another form of child abuse. In fact, it's now illegal in most states here in the United States to offer conversion therapy to a minor. So who knows, right? What could have led to a myriad of these symptoms that she's expressing? And at the same time, I don't think that you need to be lesbian necessarily to have a lot of internalized distress or hatred towards men or male sexuality when you grow up in a culture that does pretty much separate the genders, the sexes, in this kind of sleeping with the enemy mentality. Right. We're taught as women to distrust men, to distrust male sexuality, to see them kind of as predatorial, to see their desires as the natural man, which is against God. So lesbian or not, these are not ideas that I would find that uncommon to have as a person who's been raised in this particular way, and that also has probably other factors that are contributing and exacerbating her beliefs.

John Dehlin [02:32:38] Anything you want to add, Janae?

Janae Thompson [02:32:40] Well, I'm just seeing, again, a lot of inner conflict within Jody. And Jody's the only one that can answer that question, where is it coming from? But, you know, I would. I would absolutely wonder, is that coming from your own conflict within yourself around the values you're taught and the natural inclinations you have to maybe be attracted to women and really trying to fight that within yourself, that would feel like it's a real war within yourself. And maybe that's the demon she's referring to, you know?

Natasha Helfer [02:33:07] Yeah, that.

Janae Thompson [02:33:08] That's what I'm seeing.

John Dehlin [02:33:09] And then the self harm could be. And we're all theorizing is like. Like punishing yourself for the lustful feelings that you're having that you attribute to demons. Yeah, I mean, that's just. We're theorizing here, but, you know, especially never. Mormons are, like, trying to figure out what's going on here. This is maybe our best attempt to explore some of the possibilities without, you know, without trying to actually say what we think is really happening. Because we are speculating. Yeah, yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:33:40] Well, maybe better than to say what we think is happening with Jody. We can just say these are some of the trends that happen to a population that is dealing with these kinds of belief systems to grow up in. So it is not unheard of to have internalized homophobia, to turn into something that is very sick and disturbing in your own life. Right. And it doesn't help with wellness. And so, again, systemically, what is the church going to do to start including an entire segment of society into their quote, unquote plan of happiness? Like, right now, there's no inclusion. There's no way for a person to be healthy and be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who is on the LGBTQIA 2 spirit plus spectrum.

John Dehlin [02:34:26] Yeah, absolutely. All right. Now that Kevin's kicked out of his marital bed and Jodi and Ruby, or sleeping in the same bed, let's see how that progresses.

Sexual Control and Abuse Within the Group

Guest 3 [02:34:36] And she started having, like, trances and stuff, I would say, probably September, where she believed that she was going to heaven and seeing God and Jesus and talking with him. And she would get together with Pam Botcher, Ruby, Pam and Jody would get together and do these interventions. That's what they call them. And so they'd just go up and lock themselves, themselves in a room for four or five hours, and then they'd come out and they'd all just be on cloud nine. And Ruby would share with me, like, she had this amazing vision and I wrote it and Recorded it all down. And we have a work to do from God, and you're part of it and the bishop's part of it, and we're all part of bringing all this stuff to the world. So it was. And it continued like that until I wanted to move on with life. And I would call it dragging my heels. So that was around October, and Jody flipped out because during one intervention, Chad was in the backyard with a bunch of friends, and it was my job to keep all the kids contained in the basement watching movies or playing video games. I took the dog on a walk and I thought they were done, but they weren't done. And Chad had all his high school friends over in the backyard. Jody flipped out. She was ready to come back to Ivan's on her own that night, and Ruby and Pam talked her into staying. But that was the first night where Ruby said, I want a separation from you. And it was an in home separation. And so it was. It was hard. Basically. There were all these rules now placed on me. Like, I could leave when I wanted, but I couldn't come back until Ruby gave me permission. I couldn't come into the kitchen to eat until Ruby gave me permission. And the upstairs where Jody roamed was completely off limits. I couldn't go upstairs anymore in my own house. And there would be. Ruby would dictate all of the terms of how our interactions would be, when we would talk, when. And. And that was hard. And it was during that time that I really became, I would say, dependent upon Ruby. Like, if she said a kind word to me, like, my whole day was made. Right. And so that separation continued all the way up until the holidays, maybe, maybe the last week of December, first week of. Or January. And then Ruby, end of that, that separation, Jody went home.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] Okay, really quickly. So this is when I first learned about Jody. It was from someone who. Who I met who basically said, oh, yeah, and at the time, he was a believing Mormon, kind of questioning his faith. His wife was a true believer. And he's like, oh, I'm seeing this therapist because I'm a. I'm an addiction. I masturbate occasionally. Currently I'm sleeping on a sofa. Sorry. Currently I'm sleeping on a mattress in my office. Because that's the consequence that Jody encouraged my wife to inflict upon me because I can't stop masturbating. I'm relapsing. And he was in the men's group probably around the same time you were in the women's group, Janae. But he's Basically, in the doghouse, not sleeping with his wife, sleeping on a mattress in his office, which is humiliating. And then when he relapses, he brings his relapsing to the group, calls his accountability accountability buddy. The accountability buddy makes him confess to the group, and then when he confesses to the group, his wife is encouraged to punish him more. And if she doesn't, then she's labeled, I guess, as an enabler. And so the group, under Jody's direction, pressures this guy's wife to kick him out of the house for six months. But even before that, it wasn't just he's sleeping on a mattress in his office. She's told, no emotional connection, no hugs, no emotional vulnerability. He's to be cut off, not just physically, but emotionally, or you're enabling his bad behavior.

Natasha Helfer [02:38:54] And sexually.

John Dehlin [02:38:55] And sexually, all of the Lees. And so all of them. And eventually he was kicked out of his own house. He's paying the mortgage. All he did was masturbate every, you know, week or every three weeks, and he's eventually kicked out of his house, and eventually they get divorced. So, two questions. Janae, did you see that sort of pressuring from Jody, two married couples while you were, you know, in these women's groups?

Janae Thompson [02:39:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:22] Any stories you want to share?

Janae Thompson [02:39:24] It was, you know, I mean, there was mattresses in offices at the time. You know, there was Jody recommending, you know, don't be intimate for this period of time. You know, all these recommendations that seem like this is really inappropriate for how you're projecting yourself into this couple's marriage and home. And I'm also looking at the repercussions of this. You know, if you're telling your husband, oh, you have to go out and get an apartment, like, financially, is that viable for this family? Is that really the best thing for them? If your husband, you know, is. Is wanting sex more often, and you're saying, okay, cut it off, doesn't that seem like that would exacerbate that problem as well? Like, you know, no one should ever have sex with someone that they don't want to. Even in a marriage, it's always got to be consensual. But cutting it off, do you think that's going to help the problem or hurt it more? You know, And I looked at these things, and I just started thinking to myself, this feels more harmful than helpful. And that's what I started looking at, really, you know, with these recommendations that I'm hearing from the leader of the group, the professional, and I'm thinking, this is not, you know, this is not what I would want for my family. And this is also after I had lost my husband. And so in my mind, I'm like, I would give anything to be with my husband to allow him to be in our home. If he was masturbating, I could care less. The fact that I could have his presence here with me would be the most meaningful thing in the world. And she's telling these women to kick their husbands out, you know, after I had experienced a loss of this. So to me, it was really conflicting hearing this advice, because I'm like, that's not a positive impactful relationship advice.

John Dehlin [02:41:03] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:41:04] That you're giving these people. That's not good for. That's not good for the relationship. There's a lot better tools that could be used to help the couple communicate better and connect better versus separation. And you know what I always like to say, now that I look at the connections and it's with the ex, it's like her recommendation was to X people out all the time.

John Dehlin [02:41:22] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Janae. And Natasha, this doesn't even just seem like an ethical violation. I mean, she should be put in jail, in my opinion, for this sort of behavior, because now it's straying into, like, Warren Jeff's deciding who can have sex with who kind of cult territory. But what do you think about men sleeping on mattresses for masturbating and eventually having their group pressure the wives to kick the men out of the house?

Natasha Helfer [02:41:47] Yeah. No. This is horrific. This is horrific. And these are the stories I've been hearing for years, for over a decade, from prior clients, from group members, from other therapists who, their clients are telling them these stories. And we just don't even understand how people are buying into this. So this is where I noticed myself having two reactions towards Kevin. On the one hand, I have this reaction like, you're responsible for the well being of your children. You're responsible. You're a parent figure here. What are you doing? And where I hold him somewhat responsible. But then my clinical self also kicks in and I'm like, this is like battered spouse syndrome. And it's not just with a spouse, but the therapist is actually encouraging battered spouse syndrome. Right. And is actually when you start looking at the power and control wheel and a lot of the tactics, the therapist is actually saying, no, let's use, let's use some of these tactics to, you know, quote unquote, help your relationship. So this is where I just, I really want to just educate the public, like this is not okay behavior. Even some of the behaviors that were happening much earlier than this, like with, you know, withholding lunches and taking off doors, like, if your spouse is wanting to parent in that way, that is not appropriate parenting. That is not something that you need to be in unity with your. With your spouse on. This is where you need to start challenging and getting the help you need, even if it's legal help. And then when it comes to this, like, the sex punishment, you know, very few times in my career have I offered what I call, you know, a sexual sabbatical. And again, from this perspective of would this be helpful? And usually it's when within that relationship, there has been marital, like rape or assault or coercion or long histories of duty sex, where it's like, this couple needs a break from their sexual interactions with each other so that we can heal and repair. And immediately we start with, what are ways that you can be affectionate? What are ways that you can connect, even if they're not sexual, because that wound has been so deep for them. So it's not like it's never appropriate to offer that as a suggestion. But again, it's a suggestion, and it's not a mandate, and it's not a punishment. It's a way to relax the patterns that have been there so that you can recreate new ones. So everything about this, to me, is just. I don't know what other word to use and just horrifying.

John Dehlin [02:44:18] Yeah. Yeah. Amen. And it would just be so nice with all the money that Mormons pay, 10% of their income for their lives, you know, two hours a week at church now used to be more. Plus all the church education. Would it be amazing if the church could teach ethics, you know, encourage therapy, but also teach their members the ethics of therapy? Because there's no reason why a BYU professor should allow a therapist to destroy his family. But. But, you know, from Adam Paul Steed's interview, we know that if Jody started to get opposition from the husband, she would convince the wife to falsely accuse the husband of, like, being a child abuser or pedophile in a way that would make the husband terrified that if he ever crossed Jody, he would end up in jail and on a sex offender list. Like, that's how severe, you know, Jody's influence became with the women that she would control. So that's. That's, again, me not trying to make excuses for Kevin, but to say that if Kevin experienced anything like Adam Paul Steed, he was probably terrified that if he crossed Jody, he was going to end up being accused of pedophilia and have his life ruined by Jody.

Janae Thompson [02:45:39] Yeah, and that's on the extreme end. You know, on the less extreme end, it's still. There's this, you know, if Jody can get the wife to control the sexual aspect of the relationship, you know, she can dictate what's happening. And that's another form of sexual control that is abusive.

Natasha Helfer [02:45:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think. I mean, the reason why we call it battered spouse syndrome is most people don't enter relationships where they're battered on the first day and they still continue. Many of you have heard the metaphor of the frogs in the pot, Right. So if you put a pot into boiling water, it's going to jump out. But if you put frogs into tepid water and then boil it over time, just slowly warm it up, you die.

Janae Thompson [02:46:23] Right.

Natasha Helfer [02:46:24] And so we as humans have that. And this is, you know, this is part of groupthink. This is part of how we're vulnerable. And so even though there are aspects of me that are like, goodness, Kevin, step up and protect your kids, there's also that understanding that over time, and especially with other people in play, it can feel very daunting. And you don't even realize that you're being battered. Like, even earlier when he said, oh, our relationship was getting better because we were having these conversations where we were feeling like we were bonding. And you can bond over shit balls all day long and feel better about it, but that doesn't mean that what you're bonding about is very healthy. So even that sense of not knowing what to trust because you're. You're saying, well, we are improving. But it is also fascinating to me that so many of these people have lots of means, and not once do I hear them contacting a lawyer for legal advice.

John Dehlin [02:47:18] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:47:19] And I just think that's fascinating. And again, what's the culture? The culture is, will you go to your bishop? You know, it's kind of like the same that we see with sexual trauma. People don't go to the police. People go to their bishop. And I see that a lot in these vulnerable spouses. And I think we do need to name that men are victims of spousal abuse. And it's usually more emotional, it's usually more psychological abuse, usually violent abuse is usually perpetrated more on women, statistically speaking. Not that women can't be physical with their male partners, but this is a really big problem.

John Dehlin [02:47:56] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:47:57] And I can't help but think, you know, if the tables were turned and the gender roles were reversed. And it was, you know, Ruby that was dragged into this cult, and it was Ruby that, you know by her husband. How differently would we react to her in this position versus him?

John Dehlin [02:48:12] Yeah, that's good. All right, let's keep going.

Guest 3 [02:48:17] Like the second week of January. But by that time, like Ruby, Pam and Jody were completely determined to do this work that they felt God had for them. And I thought it was crazy. Like, I thought it was just batshit crazy. Like, Ruby, you have a reputation, you have a multi million dollar business, you have a brand, and you just gift giving it away. She wanted to legally, like, work with Jody's attorney to basically give Jody eight passengers and. And become an employee of connections. So basically the contract was Ruby gives Jody everything and Ruby gets nothing in return. Our manager, our YouTube manager at the time was like, red flags, red flags. Like, I don't know how to tell you, she is scamming you. Ruby finally fired him. And I was like, I believe our manager. I think he's right. And Ruby started threatening me with another separation. And just like, this isn't about money, this is about doing God's work. So we continued in that dynamic for the next six or seven months until she went on a trip with Jody and Pam down to.

John Dehlin [02:49:29] Okay, really quickly, like, Janae, I saw you were nodding your head.

Janae Thompson [02:49:32] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:49:33] As the owner of a YouTube channel that's very successful.

Janae Thompson [02:49:35] Yeah, I mean, the level of mind control that's going on there, because if you can convince a creator to just give up everything that they've worked for, at that point, there's. I would question if there's any logical mind left, you know, and the hard thing about that is where, you know, Ruby kind of did this and she has the control over it. If Jody can get the control over that, I mean, she can manipulate in any way possible and that. So that scenario just tells me the level of mind control Jody has over Ruby at this point.

John Dehlin [02:50:07] Yeah, it's a full blown cult.

Janae Thompson [02:50:08] It's a full blown cult.

John Dehlin [02:50:10] Yeah. Yeah, it's terrible. All right, let's keep going

Guest 3 [02:50:16] to Arizona. And I think they like when I read her journal that she went into Mexico or something and bought drugs or something like prescription drugs for the emergency kits. And when she came on that trip, before she even brought the bags into the house, she pulled me in and said, I want to talk with you. And that's when she asked me to leave. And that was July 20, 2022. My interactions with Jody at That point became one of Jody. I was still in the men's group, but the dynamic changed. Instead of being like. Like one of the top people that helped run groups and helped support, all of a sudden I was. I felt like I got knocked to the bottom, and Jody was just piling on me every week. And I'm in the groups, and other men. The other men just do whatever Joey does. If Jody piles on somebody, they all pile on. If Jody praises somebody, they all praise. And so it really felt like a. It felt like a. Like a pack of dogs. And Jody was the alpha. And whoever she, you know, sic the dogs, they would go. Whoever she prays, the dogs would just lick them up and down. And that's how these groups went. And so once I was in separation, every week was just hell, psychological hell. And Jody was running it. Everything was on zoom. And I knew that the only way I would ever get back into my house was I had to get Jody's approval. If I didn't get Jody's approval, I would never get Ruby's approval. But it felt like an impossible task because no matter what I did, no matter how, like much I tried to track, better be, you know, truthful and not be selfish. Every week, it was like, you're being manipulative, you're being selfish, you're lying. You're. You're hiding something. You're still hiding stuff. And I really started to, like, question my sanity, honestly.

Kevin Removed From His Home and Further Isolated

Natasha Helfer [02:52:03] Can I just say something really quick?

John Dehlin [02:52:06] Yeah, Please.

Natasha Helfer [02:52:07] And please understand that nobody has the right to ask you to leave your home until a police or a court order says that you should leave your home. Nobody has the right to kick you out of your own home, to give up custody of your own kids, or just to leave the premises. This is so important for. I mean, why don't we have a basic class at church that tells you something like that? Right. And so if you don't feel safe in your own home, you can leave and you can call the police to get a protective order in place, but nobody has the right to tell somebody to leave their own home.

John Dehlin [02:52:46] Yeah. Certainly not a therapist that wants your business and wants your money and wants your influence.

Janae Thompson [02:52:53] Yeah, that's a lot of red flags you just named right there.

John Dehlin [02:52:55] Yeah. I mean, it's outrageous. But it's important to note that the Frankies weren't the only victims of Jody.

Janae Thompson [02:53:02] No, there's been hundreds, maybe thousands at this point.

Natasha Helfer [02:53:06] Yeah, I've had clients that, you know, he would come home from work and everything had been taken from the home, you know, so I mean, all kinds of. I mean, all kinds of things due to these kinds of suggestions or recommendations or really commands, almost.

John Dehlin [02:53:24] Yeah. And it all came back to Jody making a lot of money and having a lot of power.

Janae Thompson [02:53:29] Yeah. And also it's important to note in this situation the level of isolation Kevin's experiencing. And then when he's going to these groups to try and get this approval, the level of shame that's being projected on him, like, how difficult would that be mentally to try? And then, you know, not only in that isolation, you're literally alone. Cuz I think he goes on to say how alone he feels and he just goes to work and comes back to his apartment. That's his whole life. But also, you know, being withheld, like withholding your children, withholding your family from somebody's life, how detrimental would that be? The people that are supposed to love you and you're saying you may not interact with these people.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] Yeah. And the husbands were cut off from their kids as well as their spouses.

Guest 3 [02:54:14] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:54:15] Which, that, to me, that's criminal. That's criminal behavior.

Janae Thompson [02:54:19] Which again, from my perspective, you know, the first time I heard this, I was like, well, is it any sort of that you got kicked out of your house? I could see that one coming because that's what Jody does. That's the pattern. Right. But, you know, regardless of, you know, the things Kevin struggles with and his imperfections and all that, and, you know, the reasoning behind why he got kicked out of the house, for me, you know, I look at him and I still think, like, that's a guy that's trying to be a good dad overall. Yeah. He's had his things that people don't agree with and all that. But to me, what I would give to give my children a father in their home, I mean, and just to see this wife almost flippantly just kick her husband out and cut him off from the kids, it's like, I live every day with how much my children need a father in the home and it's not an option for us. And so I look at this and I just, I mean, I just have to shake my head and say, you know, these kids need a father figure in their house and their legitimate biological father is there and you're just cutting him off. Like that is criminal.

John Dehlin [02:55:23] Yeah. And just so we don't forget, part of what empowered Jody is the fact that she was meeting regularly with top level Mormon church leaders. She was being recommended regularly by Mormon bishops to members of Mormon bishops Wards. She was on lists. She was being invited to, to speak at national conferences led by top level leaders of the Mormon Church related to mental health. And we know that up until weeks before she was put in jail, she was consulting again with Brad Wilcox, one of the top 100 leaders in the Mormon Church, and Jeremy Yaghi, again, one of the top 100 global leaders of the Mormon Church at General Authority. So the Mormon Church was empowering, enabling, and even paying for Jody to abuse people. And so we can't let the church off, you know, knowing that that's what was going on. Were you going to say something quick, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [02:56:20] Yeah, and I think this is also where if we're going to say, well, Kevin is trying to be a good father, I think we could say the same thing about Ruby. So this is where I'm just wanting to hold people accountable. You being under mind control does not excuse you in child abuse. And this is where I hold him accountable as well. I think they were both under mind control. I think they were both dealing with whatever issues that were keeping them from seeing reality. At the same time, we don't excuse people due to their own issues from when they are perpetrating child abuse. And I do see him as complicit in that.

Janae Thompson [02:56:56] Well, and I have to say, on the flip side of that, my other thinking with that scenario is, you know, why don't you step in and say, no, these are my kids. You don't get to cut me off from them. You know, where was that, you know, feeling of I can say that to my wife? Because that obviously wasn't there in the situation either.

John Dehlin [02:57:15] Yeah, yeah. And so part of why we're doing this episode today is to educate you about the ethics of therapy and coaches and religion so that you don't have anything even close to, of this happen to you in your lives. And so the Mormon Church can wake up and fix this, because by no means is Jody the only Mormon therapist behaving like this. We know every month a new highly affiliated Mormon therapist is incarcerated for abusing clients for abusing children. And they're on the church's effective payroll because the church is referring clients to them or paying their bills, you know, which is what bishops do. All right, let's keep going.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [02:58:01] It became more and more and more and more and more isolated until, you know, Jody. Jody had an approved list of men that I can make phone calls to. And it was basically three men, but two of those. Well, not all three of those three men were like, we don't want to do phone calls with you anymore because you're being manipulative. And I'm like, well, who told you that? Well, Jody did. So I was completely cut off. And if I went to my church leaders, I was seeking enablement. If I went to my family, I was seeking enablement. If I went to anybody, I was seeking enablement. And so it just, it felt like a no win. I felt trapped. And that's where I was all the way up until the last week of July when Jody called me one day out of the blue and just said, I don't understand why you're not getting it. You're not changing. I don't get it. So I've been asking God what to do, and God told me that you need just to have complete. Complete. What's the word they would use? Solitude with God.

Video Clip 1 [02:58:58] Become a monk.

Video Clip 1 [02:59:00] And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like, I don't want you to come to men's group anymore. And I don't want you to do phone calls with any of the men. Like, well, then who am I going to talk with? Who. Who's going to support me? God will. You need to learn to go to God. And so I'm just like, there's nobody. You're just. I mean, you're, you're not going to be completely cut off. And she's like, no, you'll have God. So that was the last week of July, and that was my last interaction and contact with Joby. But it was strange because at that time, around that time, things with Ruby started, like, picking up, up. And I didn't understand why, but like, Ruby wanted to meet in a parking lot really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] That type of isolation can lead to suicidality. I mean, I. I am guessing that Kevin by this point is having suicidal ideation. And in my mind, he's probably lucky to be alive because that level of control in isolation can be deadly. Am I wrong?

Natasha Helfer [02:59:56] No, no, not at all.

John Dehlin [02:59:58] Cut off from your wife, cut off from your kids, cut off from everyone and told your only resource is God.

Natasha Helfer [03:00:06] Yeah. And even going back to, like, what you're saying about holding the Mormon Church accountable because people like Jody Hildebrandt are on their referral list. I just want to bring up amcap, which is the association of. It used to be Mormon. Now it's Latter Day Saint counselors and psychotherapists right off their website. This is what it says. AMCAP Directory is a database of members who are local and international mental health professionals. AMCAP members support the purposes and ethical guidelines of AMCAP as stated by its bylaws. It's a non profit organization that is not sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Although at every conference I've seen the keynote speaker be an apostle or you know, some type of general authority. But it is guided by its doctrine and practices. These are the kinds of therapists that make the church approval list, Right? People who belong to AMCAP or who are willing to practice therapy or according to the doctrine and practices of the church. I'm like, so now the church is the regulatory board for therapists, right? And so when I, many years ago when I considered joining AMCAP and I read all of this, I was like, this is actually unethical. I can't join this organization just by my, basically by my marriage and family therapy codes of ethics. And then again, when I as a therapist am trying to practice from a clinical evidence based practice, especially in the realm of sexuality. Well, guess what? That does not. I cannot practice by the doctrine and practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints because that's unethical, because they have sexist and you know, conversion therapy and they have all kinds of things that are very unhealthy for people from a sexual space. So I just want to reiterate your point, John, that this is a systemic problem. The church refers to therapists that agree to, to practice in a way that is in accordance with the doctrine instead of in a way that is according with ethics and evidence based practice. This is what really needs to end.

John Dehlin [03:02:02] Yeah, absolutely. Yep. All right, let's keep rolling.

Financial Exploitation and Loss of Assets

Guest 3 [03:02:10] And wanted me to sign over titles of documents like the two of our clients cars, wanted me to sign them over to her name and two of you. But I was like, okay, you know, I'm just not, I'm in total compliance mode at this point. Just like I'm a good husband. You see, you can trust me. And, and so whatever she asked, like, sign over the, the cars to me, no questions, just okay. And then another thing, she was like, I might want to do an investment, but I will need your signature. Do you trust me enough that I could get your signature if I wanted to pursue my own investment? Yeah, sure, whatever you say. I'll be talking about it. She tell you she never did. I never signed anything. She never brought anything to me. But when I returned to the house, everything was backed up and a neighbor came over and said she asked for the HOA rules and, and mentioned to him that she wanted to rent the house out, which my Was like, are you kidding me? And he. Apparently she wanted to sell the house but couldn't because my name is on the mortgage. And I think. I think that's what she was talking about of, will you sign something if I just put it in front of you? And you know what? I probably would have, like, that's how messed up I was.

Janae Thompson [03:03:21] I'm glad you didn't.

Guest 3 [03:03:22] Me, too. That would have been disastrous. But I can't describe to you what torture and hell it was to live an entire. It was more than a month, really, in complete isolation, believing that I was, like, evil and, I mean, manipulative and lying and selfish and that I had abandoned my family and that I was more interested in my selfishness than my family.

Janae Thompson [03:03:48] And I think moving forward, you going through that is going to be extremely helpful.

Natasha Helfer [03:03:54] Felt that way because a lot of

Janae Thompson [03:03:56] those are the same words that were

Natasha Helfer [03:03:57] used with them, and you're going to

Janae Thompson [03:03:58] understand how they felt.

Guest 3 [03:03:59] You know, we've already talked about that, actually, the couple of times we've met. I've said, this is how I felt. Did you feel that way? Yes, this is how I felt. Like, when we each confessed to things that we didn't do, I'm like, I confess the things I never did, but I was so scared. And he's like, that's what I did, too. So we connected on that level, you know, and it's crazy that anybody can get to that level of desperation, but we were there. We were there. This is the end of July, you're saying end of July, 2022 or the last time you saw Jody was 23? 23. Okay. The last communication I had with Jody was last week in July. It might have been, like, the first couple days of August.

Janae Thompson [03:04:37] It's just shortly before we made contact with you.

Guest 3 [03:04:39] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [03:04:40] Or you made contact with us a month before.

Guest 3 [03:04:42] Okay. So for that whole month, my life was literally wake up, exercise, go to work, pretend everything's okay, come home to connect connections like workbooks and read scriptures and try to strip selfishness out of my life. Like, go to bed, wake up, repeat every day. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, I was so upside down. And my plan was in six months, I get to reach back out to Jody again and she'll let me back in the group. And then I can prove, oh, I don't know if I heard a door knock, but might be the kids. Might be.

Janae Thompson [03:05:16] Oh, and we can.

Guest 3 [03:05:17] Has it been an hour?

Natasha Helfer [03:05:19] Almost.

Guest 3 [03:05:19] I told you it wouldn't take an hour. I'm sorry.

Janae Thompson [03:05:22] We're good too, if you need to head out. That was seriously. I guess we just wanted.

Natasha Helfer [03:05:25] Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:05:26] The only questions I would have.

Natasha Helfer [03:05:27] Just go back.

Guest 3 [03:05:27] You said that she was having like these visions. Like what's it did? Were you ever privy enough to understand or be told what those visions were? A couple of them. What were the two they should tell you about? So like one of them, she would. Was walking along the beach with Jesus and. And Jesus challenged her to go walk on the water. And there was a whole lesson on walking on the water. Another she would walk with heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and she learned about. She had a pet lion in heaven named Charles. I don't know why I never forgot that. But it was like this massive lion and she got to ride the lion and learned that you know all about who she was and this pet lion. And there was another one where there was a lot of satanic ones where when she would go into possession mode, she would talk in like different voices. It was really creepy. Other voices would say, she's ours. We're not letting go. She is Satan's bride. She's mine. I'm going to marry her. You know. So if she was faking it, she believed that she was trying to or Satan wanted her as her bride. So then you said. Just clarifying. So last time you saw the kids was when you separated that in July of 2022. Do you have any questions for us? No, I'm just really interested in the pen papers, like for my own curiosity. I want to know what was going on and all of those little interventions.

Janae Thompson [03:06:53] And I'll look back through the photos because like I said, we documented everything. The home, whether we took it or if we didn't. And then I'll reach out to you, Mr. Kester, and let you know observations when you're done. Yeah, go for it.

Guest 3 [03:07:04] So I always thought it was interesting

John Dehlin [03:07:06] now that you mentioned that she was riding a lion.

Guest 3 [03:07:07] Kevin told me that when they were having these group meetings, she would never show up. She would show up on the webex, but in place of her person would just be this X for the connection.

John Dehlin [03:07:15] So it's like this wizard of Oz thing going on.

Guest 3 [03:07:17] She never showed her face. She always covered herself. Like even in the hottest of summer, she would wear these hoodies. She would smell so bad, she would never bathe. But she was trying to hide her arms and stuff because apparently Ruby told me they were just like mutilated. So the other thing I think that's important for them to know is during

John Dehlin [03:07:35] that whole time when you were out, you had communication with Ruby maybe three or four times. But each time, or at least on

Guest 3 [03:07:41] some of the occasions you spoke to her, she's telling you that everything's blissful, we're doing well. You know, everything's so much better without you. Oh. That would be communicated to me by Jody every week and the men's groups, too. And it was just like, you're abandoning your family. You're. And it always hurts so bad because it's like, I want to be with my family so bad. What do you mean? I'm abandoning that. If you wanted to be with your family, you would change. You would stop being selfish. You would. But you keep being selfish. So you want it. And it was just felt like, well, how do I stop wanting it? Then it's like, then you must change. Well, how do I change? Well, you got to want it.

John Dehlin [03:08:12] What?

Guest 3 [03:08:13] You know, so how do I want this? You got to change. It's just like perpetual cycle. Yeah. There's no. Was it. I tried to find my way into that cycle, and it felt like, have you ever had a dream where there's, like, a problem you're trying to solve, but you can't solve it and how frustrating you feel? That's what my life felt like. And as I'm looking back and I'm realizing there was no solution. It was. There was. You either had Jody's approval or you didn't. I wasn't doing anything different than the other man in the group, but they got her approval, so they were praised and they were repenting, and they were doing everything right. I, on the other hand, was manipulative and selfish and enabling and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she became, like, the arbiter of truth, the arbiter of forgiveness, God's own mouthpiece, and it was just messed up.

John Dehlin [03:08:57] Can I just say, if you study cults, whether it's Keith Renery of Nexium or L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology, Warren Jeffs or David Koresh, they're never, like, super handsome, charismatic. They're almost rarely super handsome, charismatic, smart, intelligent, witty people. They're goobers or they're weird or they're off. And it's just so surprising to me that, like, they're describing. I mean, we've all seen videos of Jody. She doesn't come across with the loving affect. She doesn't come across as particularly wise. I remember a video where she's, like, yelling at people for not giving her five star ratings, you know, clients.

Janae Thompson [03:09:48] It was like an online tantrum.

John Dehlin [03:09:50] Yeah. She was, like, yelling at her clients for not giving her five star ratings on Google whatever, because her ratings had gone down, probably because she was an awful therapist. But, I mean, it's just an unpleasant person who just doesn't come off as appealing. And it's just so amazing that all of these cult leaders just aren't even pleasant to look at or be around, and yet they're able to get total control over people's lives. It's kind of stunning.

Natasha Helfer [03:10:22] It is unfathomable. I don't know what to say to that.

Janae Thompson [03:10:27] I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:10:27] I don't know. Have y' all seen Keith Renery? Total goober.

Janae Thompson [03:10:32] I believe it.

John Dehlin [03:10:33] L. Ron Hubbard. Total goober.

Janae Thompson [03:10:35] I mean, I've seen pictures of Warren Jeffs. Definitely not. Total goober.

Natasha Helfer [03:10:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:39] Total goober. Yeah. It's so weird that these wealthy, powerful, successful people were giving her so much power. I mean, I'm not shaming anyone. It's just. It's just. It's just. It's just. It's humbling probably, to think we are all vulnerable. If we don't learn the techniques and how to identify high demand religions or cult tactics, any of us can be sucked in, Janae. I mean.

Janae Thompson [03:11:10] Yeah, well, I mean, looking back at that point in my life, I was extremely vulnerable. And I came to realize that is what Jody's looking for in clients is people who are extremely vulnerable. And then she gives them the validation they need to feel like they're being heard, like they're being important or they're regaining their sense of important and that they're not crazy and they're not wrong for thinking what they think.

John Dehlin [03:11:34] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:11:35] And it's, it's just a very vicious cycle of manipulation is what it is.

Natasha Helfer [03:11:38] That's the truth.

John Dehlin [03:11:39] Yeah. Yeah. Other people are saying, Chad Daybell, again, kind of. Again, kind of a goober, and.

Janae Thompson [03:11:46] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:46] Even Brian Mitchell, like, like. And I'm not talking about, like, traditional standards of beauty, which I hate. You know what I mean? I hate gender binary and I hate traditional social standards of attractiveness or beauty, but just people. Brian David Mitchell, like Elizabeth Smart's abductor, again, these aren't just normal people. These people are off.

Janae Thompson [03:12:11] Right.

Natasha Helfer [03:12:13] There's an oddity, is what you're saying.

John Dehlin [03:12:14] Yeah, there's an oddity. Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:12:17] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [03:12:19] One thing maybe to go on a totally different tangent. Sorry, John.

John Dehlin [03:12:23] No, it's good. I made my point.

Natasha Helfer [03:12:24] I don't know that I have anything to say about oddity, but I think, you know, because I'm noticing Too, in the comments, there's a lot of things about, you know, him being a father and holding him responsible as a father. And this is another thing that I think, think is a systemic issue in traditional systems where there's this really big divide in emotional labor when it comes to the sexes. Right. And so we have to understand that in this culture, mothers are really given the responsibility of the care of the children and fathers are given the responsibility of providing for their family. Right. And I think that sets people up or a lot of families up for a lot of power struggles. Either way, of course, because it's patriarchal. Sometimes you have fathers who, even though that's their primary thing is to provide the money, they will also insert themselves into the disciplining of the children and do some very patriarchal, kind of abusive ways. But then you also have this kind of other side where the female is given a lot of that power and decision making. And I see that a lot in this man, Kevin. Right. It's kind of like, well, I don't have the right, she has the right over the children. So I just want to call out the systemic issues there. When a culture doesn't really teach egalitarianism, both parents are responsible for the well being of the children. Both parents are responsible for the providing of resources to the children into the family life. Right. And so when we split, both parents should nurture, both parents should nurture children. Both parents are responsible for all the aspects of a children's well being and welfare. So this is where I see it sometimes going wonky on both ways with this power differential instead of like from the get go, teaching people. No, this is a team effort. Both of you are decision makers. Both of your decision makers over all aspects of your marital life. Not you decide on the money and you decide on the kids. Right. So I just, I just want to call that out systemically.

John Dehlin [03:14:25] That's great.

Janae Thompson [03:14:26] Yeah. And just noticing too, how, you know, Jody wanted to hold Kevin accountable for his responsibilities as a man, like paying the bills even while he's kicked out, you know, and. But then cutting him off from the family. And so then it's like that's creating that division within the gender roles, which is like, let me pick and choose which ones I want you to follow and which ones I don't, while making those gender roles very biased.

John Dehlin [03:14:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, we're almost done.

Kevin Reflects on Leaving the Group

Natasha Helfer [03:14:59] Well, I'm glad that you're seeing clearly, you know, when I came out of it. Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:15:04] So one last discussion.

John Dehlin [03:15:06] So in the home, when the warrant was issued.

Guest 3 [03:15:10] There was a bag with $85,000 cash.

John Dehlin [03:15:13] And I understand her lawyer.

Guest 3 [03:15:15] Ruby's lawyer has all that.

Natasha Helfer [03:15:16] I know.

Guest 3 [03:15:17] Which home are we talking about? We don't know. We. The money was left where it was left. We didn't take it. We're assuming that Lamar Winward. Yeah. Retrieve it, but we don't. I can't tell you.

Natasha Helfer [03:15:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:30] So here's kind of the issue.

Guest 3 [03:15:32] That money, she cleaned out their bank accounts, the kids savings account. Yeah. And yours too. Your joint account. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:38] That's where that money came from.

Guest 3 [03:15:40] So I don't know if you can have. Or if I need to have a

John Dehlin [03:15:42] discussion with the county attorney. Kevin would kind of like his kids money back.

Natasha Helfer [03:15:46] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:15:46] So it would be civil. So I would go address that.

Guest 3 [03:15:52] I don't think he wants to give

John Dehlin [03:15:53] them up and I wouldn't either.

Guest 3 [03:15:54] Yeah. I think he's using it for attorney fees. Yeah. I don't know if the county attorney is going to be able to separate that outlaw. The judge has already separated out. Even the county attorneys can look at it and go it's a civil. It's both your guys's money in some sense. And the judge would have to divide that up to where it goes and do it. Do that. He's a county train.

John Dehlin [03:16:09] If you did go civil though, I

Janae Thompson [03:16:10] feel that would be your fastest route to.

Guest 3 [03:16:12] It's just dirty. And she did.

Natasha Helfer [03:16:14] Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:16:14] She stole money. She stole money from my 18 year old son out there. It's wrong.

John Dehlin [03:16:19] Well the other thing that you didn't. That I don't.

Guest 3 [03:16:22] I mean there's a lot there. But I think they need to know that while Jody was living her home, she was also purportedly giving therapy to Chad. And Chad was like at that time we were paying her. It wasn't until Chad moved out that part of his therapy was he needed to. He needed to pay for his own therapy. So at age 17 he was paying her 900amonth. Oh my gosh. To get brainwashed down. At 17 he did. Was he doing for work? He worked at. At a lifeguard. Basically.

John Dehlin [03:16:52] Okay.

Guest 3 [03:16:52] Lifeguard supervisor at two different centers. So it was like the majority of his check was going to Joey.

John Dehlin [03:16:57] He was paying her more than he's paying rent.

Guest 3 [03:16:58] Wasn't it three times as much. That's crazy. Obviously you see her house and what she has, she's making. There's a lot of money going around. There's a lot of money. I don't know if we can. Sorry. I'm not sure if we Know where that money came from or where it went. Like, it doesn't seem like she's had to come with my pass a little bit.

John Dehlin [03:17:16] So did her book sales? Were her book sales?

Guest 3 [03:17:18] I can't imagine. I can't imagine they were. Anyway, I need to get my kids.

Janae Thompson [03:17:23] Yeah, we'll definitely let you go. Thank you so much for your time.

Guest 3 [03:17:25] I'd want to. To cooperate, though, on anything related to Jody. Reach out to your attorney, if that's okay, if you have any questions.

Closing Thoughts on Kevin's Situation

John Dehlin [03:17:39] All right, I think that's it. So, Kevin, if you're out there, I'm sure it may get back to you that we do this episode, and we just want to offer you our condolences and you and your children and all the healing in the world. And I hope you don't feel like we've been coming at you or attacking you. All of us have responsibility in our lives. We're not trying to say anyone was perfect, including you, but we wish you and your kids the best. So, Janae, as also a victim of Jody, do you want to tell how your story with Jody ended?

Janae Thompson [03:18:13] I thought that was interesting, how I left women's group. Yeah. I just kind of had this realization where I was coming into myself based really on the teachings that Jodi was teaching us about honesty and being in integrity. And I couldn't make all those calls, and I kept finding myself.

John Dehlin [03:18:35] The three calls a day.

Janae Thompson [03:18:36] Yeah, the three calls a day being short of that. And I just kind of felt like. And these goals that I'm kind of being perpetuated to make, they're really not goals that I'm really that connected with. And so. And I even found myself lying about how many calls I'd made in a week because I didn't want to get shamed. And then I'm thinking, this is so out of integrity with. I really value honesty, but I'm afraid to be honest because I don't want the backlash. And I'm like, this is not cultivating in me the honesty and the integrity and what I want out of this therapy. So I'm just gonna be really honest. And so when I did my reporting, I said, I made, you know, however many. It was six phone calls this week, which is really low. And, you know, I'm not committed to making three phone calls anymore. I just let. That's not something that I can do. It's not conducive to my life. It's not something that, you know, will work for me. So I'm just really. I just want to be really forthright and honest about it. So I'm committing to make one phone call a day, and that I can do, you know, so. And my only goal that I'm gonna have is to get up at a certain time in the morning because I'd like to get up earlier. Those are the only two things I'm committing to in this group. And, you know, I thought Jodi was gonna be like, oh, great job. You're really embodying the principles, like, you're being honest about what it is that you're capable of. You know, like, good job. I'm just waiting for these accolades, right? And her reaction was literally shocking to me because, you know, as soon as I said that, she's like, are you open to my feedback now? And I'm like, yeah, of course, you know, and she's like, do you know what I'm hearing? And I'm paraphrasing this now, but it was basically, you're not committed to your healing. You don't want this. You're not, you know, respectable. You're not, you know, all the. It was just basically this whole shame that she's projecting at me. And then the very last thing she said, which, I mean, this just, you know, sealed. This was the last nail in the coffin for me around working with Jodi at all anymore. The last thing she said was, and so it's no wonder that your kids act the way they do. Well, in women's therapy, I didn't bring up my kids. That was just stuff that she and I had talked about in our one on one therapy sessions. And I, like, immediately, I felt like, so violated that she would bring my kids into this group therapy and blame me for their behavior. When, you know, like, one of the things that she teaches is you're not responsible for other people's behavior. But then it's like, now all of a sudden, if I'm not responsible for my own healing by doing what she says I should do, it's now that's why my kids misbehave, is because I am not committed. I am not willing to do what it takes, according to Jodi. And at that point, I was just like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that I just got that reaction. And what I really realized in the end is that in a public setting, I was saying, I'm not going to do what you're going to say. So if she accepted that from me, that means that would give everybody else license to maybe not follow her rules anymore. And so this had nothing to do with what I was committed to. It had nothing to do with my healing and my therapy and. And what was good for me. It had everything to do with following the guidelines that were set forth by the leader of the group. And that was Jodi, and I was defying that. And so that's where that backlash came from.

John Dehlin [03:22:03] And I'll give two quick reactions to that. And then, Natasha, I'll give you the last word. But number one, another rule, when you're dealing with therapists, it's never your job to worry about your therapist's feelings. So if you want to fire your therapist, if you want to move on to somebody else, if you. If you're done, if you don't think it's working for you, if you don't even like a recommendation or an intervention that a therapist is offering, you never should feel bad. You never should feel like, oh, if I cancel or if I decline or if I do something else, my therapy might be sad or upset with me. If you're worrying about your therapist's feelings, you need to find a new therapist. Or if they're making you feel like you need to worry about their feelings, you need to find a new therapist, because that's a red flag that they're unethical. You should be able to fire your therapist at any time, and they should just celebrate you and say, how can I help? You want to do something else? This is great. You know what I mean? The only other thing I'll just say really quickly is that to make one more point about the Mormon Church, I just want all of you to think about the fact that that Jodi Hildebrandt, even after she had had her license suspended for 18 months for unethical behavior in 2012, before and after the suspension of her license. Again, I've made this point, but I'm making a counterpoint as well. She was on the payroll of the Mormon Church, and or she was recommended by the Mormon Church and. Or she was embraced, celebrated, and promoted by the Mormon Church at the highest levels up until a few weeks before she was put in jail while she was abusing these children. Contrast that with me getting my PhD in 2015. I'm finishing my clinical and counseling PhD. I'm an advocate for LGBTQ rights. I'm trying to help Mormons in faith crisis, trying to save mixed orientation marriages or mixed faith marriages, doing all I can to clean up the messes that the Mormon Church has made in so many individual lives and in so many couples and in so many Families. What does the Mormon Church do to me? They excommunicate me the same year I get my PhD. Turn that also on Natasha. You can see how ethical and how knowledgeable and how competent Natasha is with this population. Instead of celebrating Natasha, putting her on all the lists, inviting her to speak at all the conferences promoting her work, selling her back books, a Deseret book, what do they do with Natasha for being an ethical, competent, useful therapist? They excommunicate her. How did that feel, Natasha, and how does it feel to know that you were excommunicated? That I was excommunicated. And the people like Jody Hildebrandt and Maurice Harker and others have been not only embraced and celebrated, but paid and promoted by the church.

Institutional Failures and Personal Costs

Natasha Helfer [03:24:58] Yeah, it's infuriating, quite frankly, it's infuriating. And I mean, personally, it hurts. Obviously, there's a personal cost to that. But this is what was so painful for me to recognize as I was getting excommunicated, is that now everything that I have to say, which is my ideas, first of all, are not my ideas. Most of Jody's ideas are her own ideas. All this language she comes up with, like, what are some of the words that she.

John Dehlin [03:25:21] Distortion.

Natasha Helfer [03:25:21] Distortion. Those are all her. Right. Those are not. You know, I'm bringing clinical ideas back to my home, to my people, to my community, and they're not my ideas. They're just clinically sound information. And now, because they excommunicate me, that information gets excommunicated. Right? It's not just me. It's that the legitimacy of what I'm saying to people, that could really help their lives. It could help them parent their LGBTQ kids, kids better, that could help them have better sex lives in their marriages, that could help them have better mental health. That information is discredited, Right, because it goes against the prophet seers and revelators, which is. Which is the definition of apostasy. Right? And this is where I went round and round with them. I'm like, no, you're excommunicating me for my clinical views. And they were like, oh, no, we're not. We're excommunicating you for apostasy. And I'm like, yes, because. Because the clinical views that are backed up by science and social science research are not in line with your prophetic ideas. Right? And so round and round we went. And so they just do not want to take accountability for the fact that they are teaching unethical, harmful things that affect people's mental health, relational Health, sexual health and spiritual health. And this is now coming out in a lot of the research on religious trauma, which is fascinating to see that finally coming out, because for a long time the research has talked about how religion is healthy, but that research never talked about the spectrum of religion, how high demand that religion was, and never really looked at the costs of high demand religion. Right. So these are just all really interesting things. Just a few thoughts I have about what you were talking about, janae. So the 12 step programs, it is not surprising to me that you lied, right? You lied. That is something that I think is endemic in 12 step programs because it is set up for you to have to monitor your behavior and to be accountable for your behavior. And if you have behavior that isn't good and it's now naughty on the naughty list, you have to tell somebody about that. And that's a shameful process. And you're shamed for it, whether they want to call it that or not. And so what do people do in that situation since the time they're two, they lie. This is what we do as humans. And so there's deceit. And then there was this other endemic thing of 12 step programs, which is it's kind of like our way or the highway. And even in alcoholism, this is true that if you don't follow or if you don't agree with the program, with the leaders, with the system, you are in, what? Denial? You're in denial, right? So all these Mormon men, for example, who are saying, I don't think I'm a sex addict, or I don't think this is, you know, the problem that you're saying it is, well, now you're in denial. And that sets up the wives to be very distressful, right? Like you're not even willing to face your problem. You're in denial. So you can see how round and round this goes of being very problematic and how the whole system is set up. And then, oh, shoot. There was one other thing I wanted to say about what you were saying.

John Dehlin [03:28:33] Why are you thinking.

Natasha Helfer [03:28:33] Thinking about it?

John Dehlin [03:28:34] I'm just going to say one caveat. I've had people on Mormon Stories podcast that went through Alcoholics Anonymous and they report that it saved their lives. And so I don't know what to do with that exactly, because I know that Alcoholics Anonymous has helped a lot of people. So I don't want people to take this as just a point blank condemnation of Alcoholics Anonymous or all 12 STEP programs. But I think we need to be able to just recognize unhealthy traits of unhealthy groups or organizations, wherever they are. So please try and take a nuanced view and don't think that we're just doing that.

Natasha Helfer [03:29:13] Yes, no, and I agree with that. I think that a lot of people would also say that sex addiction Anonymous has saved their lives. But again, I'm always interested in the nuance in that and why they think that. And could there have been other better ways to still, quote, unquote, save your life without having some of these unhealthy components of these types of programs in place? And I do think that that is possible. I guess the last thought I had is that although I do have a lot of empathy for Kevin and I do consider him as part of this battered spouse syndrome, I am not willing or comfortable completely absolving his responsibility. Especially prior to meeting Jody, they were already having issues with what I would consider abusive behavior with their children. So I'm hoping that in cases like with Kevin, the state will mandate court appointed parenting education if he is going to have custody of his children. Again. I hope that he is appointed court appointed therapy, family therapy, and that the kids are appointed therapy because there were patterns of, there were already systemic issues with that parenting duo that I think he needs to take responsibility for.

Final Reflections and Listener Questions

John Dehlin [03:30:32] Okay, well, before you leave, Please subscribe to YouTube right now. Please subscribe to our channel or on Facebook. Please like this episode, please share it. I really want to give both of you guys a chance to kind of let people know about the good work that you're doing as well. Natasha, I'll let you go first this time. Please tell everybody about our joint effort and then also about if they want to seek you for marriage therapy or individual therapy or sex therapy, how they do that along with your network. And then, Janae, I want to give you a last word as well.

Natasha Helfer [03:31:08] Okay, awesome. Well, if you haven't been able to tell, I care a lot about sexual shame, I care a lot about mental health, I care a lot about relational health. So I have done a lot of things to try to help people and not only just the public, but also professionals. I do quite a bit of training of therapists and have presented at conferences, national conferences, most of my career. So I have started this new platform. It's called learnreligintherapy.com that's really for therapists, coaches, professionals who are working with folks. And just like, we don't get a lot of training in sex as mental health folks, we don't get a lot of training on how to work with religion and religion is a huge aspect of people's lives, whether they are religions religious or come from religion or going through religious transition. So John and I are partnering on a three hour CE this coming Saturday, which is May 18 from 9 to 12. It's going to be live online. It's also going to be recorded so if you can't attend, you can still register and get the course through like a webinar. And we're going to be presenting on how to work effectively with folks who are going through a faith transition specifically from high demand religions. So that will be a great CE. And there's not a lot of CEs out there offering this kind of information. So I'm super happy that John is joining me for that. If you join up for the email list, you can get a free ecosystemic spiritual assessment tool and you'll get notifications of other things that I put forth as far as if the public. If you're interested in what I have to offer, you can find me@NatashaHelfer.com or you can find me at my group practice, which is symmetry counseling. And the reason why I have a group practice is because I feel very passionate of having providers I can trust and that I have trained and that I know that do ethical work to be able to refer because of course I can't see everybody who is interested in seeing me. We run groups because again, that's a way to help lots of people. And as we know, groups can be very helpful and beneficial to folks. So those are ways that you can find me for either group work, individual work, marital work, and either work with me directly or one of my providers. And we are also now providing ketamine assisted services, which are really important in the realm of religious trauma, sexual trauma, ocd, ptsd, all these things that many people in our community are dealing and struggling with. So that's me. And if we're not helpful, we're always happy to help you find a referral that we might think would be more helpful than us.

John Dehlin [03:33:33] Love it. Before Janae, I bring you on, I'm going to address One quick comment. Daphne488 writes, John seems to believe that hating men is a sign of homosexuality in Jody's part. Sounds a bit reductive to me and I'll just. I don't mind criticism, I welcome it. I'm sure it came across that I was saying something like that. I apologize. That's not what I meant to say. If I could restate it. Thank you for calling me out I welcome the feedback. If I had to restate it, I would say that when people talk about Jody and try to understand what was going on, they often mentioned mention a cluster of things and that's one of the things they mention as they're also speculating about the. The causes of why she treats people the way she does. So I do not believe that there's a correlation between hating men or women and any anywhere being along the gender or sexuality spectrum. I apologize for giving that impression and thanks for calling me out on it. I don't believe that, that. Anyway, Jana, you're doing some cool stuff. Obviously, the king of random is a. What, 12 million? How many million?

Janae Thompson [03:34:44] Yeah, 12 million. Follower channel, science and education and, you know, fun experiments. So that's our main YouTube channel. And then I'm. I'm working on creating a community for building resiliency. And so I have a YouTube channel as well. It's. It's Janae Thompson or Janae's all that spell.

John Dehlin [03:35:06] Janae. Real quick.

Janae Thompson [03:35:07] J A N A E. And I'm just kind of sharing my experiences around the things that life has handed me and how I'm getting through them in a positive way. The good, the bad and the ugly kind of. And then you can always find me on Instagram for very similar content. And that's Ena Valate, which is J A N A E V I L A T. But my objective is, is to just teach through experiences that I've had, that principle of resiliency and giving hope to myself as I go through things and anybody else that wants to

Natasha Helfer [03:35:39] be a part of that.

John Dehlin [03:35:40] Beautiful. Thank you so much, Janae, for being willing to be vulnerable and to tell your story. And Natasha, thanks for being willing to share your expertise with our community.

Natasha Helfer [03:35:50] Absolutely. Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [03:35:53] My pleasure, My pleasure. And thanks for Maven and Julia for helping out with the time codes and show notes in production. Gerardo for the thumbnails and the videography. And of course Brooklyn does our editing and our board helps us do what we do. So grateful for everyone who are donors. This is donor supported. So those of you who donate monthly or annually to the Open Stories foundation, we couldn't do this without you. And then finally, I'll just add that we lose 10 to 20 recurring donors a month for lots of reasons. People run out of money, they fall on financial hard times, they lose interest, they move on to other endeavors. And that's totally cool. We don't want to build dependency on Mormon stories. However, if you value this content and you want to see it continue or you want to pay it forward and you're not a contributor. We really need people to step up and replace the donors we lose every month. So please, please consider becoming a monthly donor. If you value this content, you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll continue providing this content for as long as people value it. So anyway, thanks again for joining us. We'll try and cover more of these true crime sort of things in the weeks, months and years ahead. We don't do it to be scandalous. We don't do it for any other reason than just we want the Mormon Church to be healthier. And we feel like we have an expertise of identifying the Mormon elements to these stories because journalists avoid talking about religion. And few people have the expertise and or the interest or courage to call out problems with the institutional church or its doctrine or its theology or its culture. So that's what we do on Mormon Stories. We'll do more of it as we can and we'll also continue to do our long form interviews and our treatments of Mormon Church truth claims and history, et cetera. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again very soon. Take care everybody.