Welcome and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1487

John Dehlin [00:00:08] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is September 23, 2021, and we are super excited for today's episode. It is September 23rd, 2021, just one season. Super excited for today's epis. Okay, sorry about that technical glitch. We are super excited for today's episode. This is a topic that I have been wanting to cover for a long, long time. And finally, we found the perfect people to work with us and to do this episode. Now, first and foremost, you guys who are watching on YouTube or on Facebook are noticing a new friend, a new co host next to me. Hey, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:59] Hi, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Yeah, so Kara Burrell is. Is not with us today. She. She is. She is a little bit sick. She's under the weather, but that's not why Mindy's here. I have a dear friend named Mindy Caldwell who. Who just happens to be really interested in this particular topic. So I, from time to time, even though we love having Kara Burrell on Mormon stories, we love having Gerardo Sumano on Mormon stories, I reserve the right to have co hosts, special guest co hosts join me whenever I dang well please, because, you know, after all, it's my show. So, Mindy, I brought you on today.

John Matthias [00:01:40] Yay.

Mindy Caldwell [00:01:41] Thanks for having me, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] And, well, I'll introduce who Mindy is. I'll have Mindy introduce herself in just a second. For those of you who are joining us, you should know that we are covering a really interesting topic today. It is the. The topic of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow. And we're going to get into kind of what that topic entails. But for those of you who live in a hole somewhere or who are on Mars or some foreign country that doesn't get news coverage, you will be hearing for the first time today that once upon a time, there was this man named Chad Daybell and this woman named Lori Valo who.

Why This Is a Mormon Story

John Dehlin [00:02:26] Who were involved in various Mormon aspects. But long story short, somehow Chad's wife ended up dead. Lori's husband ended up dead. Lori's brother ended up dead. Alex and two of Laurie's children ended up dead, and they are now in jail or in prison on trial.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] Alle as the alleged or the accused murderers in. In this whole situation. And the reason why we are doing an episode on this is because as this news story kind of emerged, it's. It's the end of 2019, right, Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [00:03:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Yeah. As. As the story kind of broke in the end of 2019, and, and since then there's been like national international news coverage on the story. But one of the big issues that just always comes up is to what extent is this really a Mormon story? Or to what extent is it not really a Mormon story? And that's kind of what the purpose of today's episode is, is we want to give a background, kind of like a high level overview of this case with experts who have been really digging into the story.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] And we really want to dive into to what extent can we really sort of attribute at least some important aspects of this case to Mormonism, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and to, you know, Mormon theology, Mormon history, Mormon doctrine and Mormon culture. And we are super honored and excited to have two really special guests guests with us today. I'm going to call them Dr. John and Lauren, but we're going to have each of them introduce themselves. They are the co hosts on a really cool newish podcast and YouTube channel that all of you should kind of pay attention to. So Lauren and Dr. John, welcome. So welcome, welcome, welcome to.

John Matthias [00:04:42] Thank you for having us, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Okay, so, so Lauren and Dr. John, it's so great to have you guys on Mormon stories podcast. Lauren, why don't you begin and give us a little bit of an introduction of kind of your background and how you got into this work and a little bit about your podcast. And then we'll have Dr. John add his story as well.

Lauren Matthias [00:05:03] Terrific, thank you. I am or was a TV reporter for 10 years and I got out of the reporting world in two. Just, I think it was the beginning of 2019 when our son was about a year old, took a break. And then all of a sudden this Day Bell case came along and I couldn't stop researching, couldn't stop learning about it.

Lauren Matthias [00:05:29] And then the pandemic hit and I thought, you know what, let's start a podcast. And maybe with that I should go back just a little bit. My husband is Dr. John Surprise. My co host. And we were set up by my cousin and I was a reporter in Boise, Idaho. He was a psychologist in Las Vegas. And we set up a time to talk for the first time. And our first conversation was like three hours long. And we talked about true crime. In that conversation, I was like, hey, you know what? I am covering this really gruesome murder and I'm really distraught by it. So let me tell you about this criminal since you, you know, and, and help me understand this guy.

Lauren Matthias [00:06:14] It's not probably the most common conversation for a first date or Getting to know you call. But that's where we went on our first conversation. And so being a TV reporter again, I also, I am lds, a return missionary. I served in Kirtland. And then I actually was the reporter that covered Hildale and Colorado City.

Lauren Matthias [00:06:36] And so when this case came along, I think that it was just how, how do we not cover it? Right? I mean, how did the two of us just not delve into this case? I had so many questions for my husband, Dr. John, who's a psychologist. I'll let him introduce and give his background. But then the pandemic came along and we thought, let's do this. And it's been. And here we are, you know, it's 20, 21 now, you know, a year and a half later. And I, I always use the analogy of peeling back an onion and I think there's about, you know, 20 onions in this.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:15] Yeah, like the layers of the onions are about 20 onions in this story. And I think we're, I think maybe we're on the 10th. It just keeps getting

Guest [00:07:25] more and more

Lauren Matthias [00:07:26] bizarre, this story, the more we delve into it. And so here we are a year and a half later, still covering the same story. And I think that there's still a lot to uncover.

John Dehlin [00:07:37] So, Lauren, did I hear you say that your love with Dr. John was forged in true crime? Is that what I heard you say?

Lauren Matthias [00:07:44] Yes, that you heard that correctly. Our getting to know you conversation. That first call was. And I remember I was at a friend's house. You know, it was one of those like, hey, my cousin's trying to set me up. I gotta just go take a call really quickly. Can I go to your guest bedroom? You know, at my friend's house. It'll be 10 minutes. I just gotta do this like little quick, little. Hey, how are you? And like I said, about two or three hours later, I think we had like three true crime stories in. And a lot of things you usually don't talk to somebody about on your first phone call. And yeah, I, you know, love it. First phone call.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] I love it. All right, so good. Well, Lauren, that's great to Hear your perspective, Dr. John. We want to hear, you know, what your, what your side of the story is. Tell us, tell us how you got interested in this.

Introducing the Guests and Their Backgrounds

John Matthias [00:08:35] Yeah, nothing says romance more than talking about murder on your first call. So that was actually quite enjoyable. So My name is Dr. John Matthias. I am a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist. I'm licensed in a couple of states.

John Matthias [00:08:55] I've now done, you know, I lost track after 300. But I've done well over 500 psychosexual evaluations, violence risk assessments, psychological evaluations. I've been involved in murder cases. I do a lot of assessment of sex crimes. I do a lot of assessment of future risks for violent recidivism.

John Matthias [00:09:19] I've also done a lot of clinical work over the years. I've worked with a lot of victims of abuse and trauma. And in addition to working with criminals and more recently, I've done more expert witness work for the federal government and several states.

John Matthias [00:09:34] And. And so that. That's kind of my background in a nutshell. And I really appreciated the chance to talk about murder with Lauren the first time we met because. Because that's right up my alley. So. So, yes, we. We fell in love over true crime.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Yeah. And I'm just gonna say. And, Mindy, I'm gonna ask you the same question I asked them in terms of your interest in the story. But before I do, I just want to say that one of the things I love about Hidden Crew Triumph, Hidden True Crime is that, Lauren, you've got an LDS background, but you've also got a journalist background. And you're. You're just so thoughtful and so good at interviewing people. And, you know, I've interviewed a few people. I went to a pretty good school, and I'm just joking, but. But I love, you know, I love what you bring Lauren. And then Dr. John, I love it that, you know, you're too humble or modest to admit this, but you're a graduate of Columbia University. You have a Ph.D. from what?

Lauren Matthias [00:10:38] Princeton.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Princeton. What did I say?

Guest [00:10:40] Columbia.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Columbia, yeah. Princeton undergrad. And then was it USC for your PhD, yeah.

John Matthias [00:10:48] Right. Southern Cal. Right. I went there for my. My doctor at the west coast so much, I stayed out here.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] And so you bring. You bring sort of the forensic psychologist kind of expertise, but also a never Mormon perspective.

Mindy Caldwell [00:11:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Which you may feel a little bit intimidated being in front of a Mormon, largely Mormon audience, but the truth is, that's one of the things I love about your perspective, is you can actually provide that outsider perspective. So you guys are just a. What I'm saying is you guys are a fantastic team, and I'm so honored to be promoting your podcast.

John Matthias [00:11:25] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:26] Thanks for pointing that out. And that's right. John is a Nevermo from Illinois, and he married a Mormon girl. Mormon woman. But, yeah. So here we are.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] We'll include a link to your podcast in the show notes. But before we jump into today, Mindy, now tell us A little bit about you and what got you interested in this topic.

Mindy Caldwell [00:11:47] Thanks, John. I'll be quick with this. Yeah. Somebody earlier in the comments asked if there was a relation to Shannon, because my last name is Caldwell. So if there's a relation to Shannon Montez, and there is, I'm adjusting myself here. Yeah, so. So Shannon is my sister in law and and then my husband, Steve Caldwell was on this podcast a few weeks ago talking about the pandemic and about the vaccination. And so we've been joking that, you know, Shannon put in, you know, countless hours into research and my husband's a physician in a pandemic. And I'm on the podcast because I really like true crime, so that's my little claim to fame.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] So basically the Caldwell are taking over morning stories.

Mindy Caldwell [00:12:36] I mean, it kind of feels that way, kind of feels that way today. But I really do enjoy true crime. But I also, I'm especially interested in this case because definitely, because it just has, you know, the Mormon element I think is fascinating. But I also have some family members who were previously very involved in this kind of prepper movement. And so it's just been something that from the get go, this case has been on my radar because, because of that kind of background story. So. Yeah. So I'm just thrilled to be here. And I also want to add that I'm really glad that Dr.

Mindy Caldwell [00:13:18] John and Lara and Lauren are on this podcast today because they're their work on Hidden True crime, Hidden A True Crime podcast. The. The YouTube videos and interviews that they've done in addition to their podcasts have just been phenomenal and fascinating. And I would urge anyone who hasn't seen their material to, to go and, and dig deep because they've got some really, really cool and interesting insider, amazing stuff.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] So absolutely awesome.

Guest [00:13:45] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] Well, it's great to have you, Mindy. Thank you, John.

Mindy Caldwell [00:13:48] I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] Yeah, Margi and I and Steve and Mindy were like driving to or from St. George when I learned Mindy's interest in true crime. And it's not just passing, it's. It's intense. Mindy is super knowledgeable about this stuff, so there's a reason she is a subject matter expert.

Lauren Matthias [00:14:05] I think she is. We've had some conversations now about the Daybell case. Yeah, we could talk forever. It's fascinating. So I'm glad she's here.

Mindy Caldwell [00:14:12] Thank you, Lauren.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] So, really quickly, let me kind of, let me just kind of explain how this series is going to roll. This is going to be a multi part series. Today is going to be part one in this series. I've already kind of, we've already kind of mentioned the Hidden True Crime podcast. We're going to provide a link to it.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] But also this is going to be part one in a series. And what we're going to cover today is we're going to give an overview of kind of what, you know, we're going to kind of give a background, a really brief background of Christianity and Mormonism. Especially for those of you, we have a lot of listeners on Mormon Stories podcast that have never, never been Mormon. So Dr. John, you'll be happy to hear that we have a ton of X Jehovah's Witnesses, ex evangelicals, ex Jews, ex Scientologists, you know. So we want to give a little bit of background, just really briefly about kind of the Christian foundation for this case and then just a overview of a few Mormon historical or doctrinal principles that, that I think are kind of relevant and I think many is going to agree are relevant and probably Lauren to this case. And then what we're going to do is we're going of introduce

Guest [00:15:26] a little

John Dehlin [00:15:27] bit about what I call Mormon neo fundamentalism. We're going to talk about Denver Snuffer and Julie Rowe. We're going to talk about kind of the prepper movement. We are going to talk about introduce Chad Dabel, how he got in, you know, his background as a kid, how he got into publishing and authoring books. We going to talk about Julie Rowe and how Chad and Julie ended up connecting. And then we're going to talk about the kind of prepper preparing a people movement and a vow. And that's going to kind of be part one. We're going to intermingle just a few video clips both from the Hidden True Crime podcast, but also a couple other clips just to kind of add a bit of a multimedia element to this.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] But in no way are we going to be exhaustive. And that's literally why you need to go spend all your life on hidden true crime podcasts because they go in depth and that's where you're going to get the in depth stuff. But we're going to sort of end today's episode on sort of, you know, when, when Lori, when Chad Dbell and Julie Rowe kind of connect up.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] And then we're going to save for part two, sort of Chad Dabel's development of what we're going to call kind of third tier Mormon theology. When things start to get crazy, then we're going to hook in, you know, Chad meeting Laurie, give a bit of Laurie's background, and then we're going to jump into the actual crime itself.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] And there may be a part three or part four, possibly. Possibly with Lauren and Dr. John, possibly not. We'll just see. But you can definitely count on at least two parts to this episode.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:16] At least. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] How does that sound, Lauren and Dr. John?

Lauren Matthias [00:17:19] That sounds great.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] Okay, good. And we are live streaming, so one of the reasons we live stream is because we really, really like having people share their thoughts and experiences. And already we've had family members, for example, of Chad Dabel in our livestream now that are paying attention. And there are probably other people too. Mindy is going to help me monitor.

Guest [00:17:43] I'm.

Mindy Caldwell [00:17:43] No, Kara.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] Yeah, I'll try.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:46] Can I ask who that? Can I ask who that is?

John Dehlin [00:17:49] Oh, Kara Burrell is my normal co host.

Lauren Matthias [00:17:53] Oh, no, I know Kara. What I mean is.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Oh. We'll ask them to share their comment and we'll actually. So if any of you new Chad or Lori or Julie or were involved in and you want to identify yourselves now, make a comment and we'll share with our viewers and our listeners and with Lauren, who's joining us today.

Lauren Matthias [00:18:15] And I hope that people realize that we can't see the. Only. You can. Right?

John Dehlin [00:18:19] You'll be able to see them once we show them. We show the comments. Okay, so let's go ahead and jump in. And what I wanted to do just really briefly was shared. What I'm just going to be fair and say there are some Christian foundations to this story that, that honestly transcend Mormonism and that just. Just sort of like are rooted in Christianity. And then there's some stuff that I think really, really tie. Some foundational elements to tie to Mormonism that I think are important to kind of discuss to. To set the stage. Okay, which one?

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:57] See, right there. Mark Blanchard.

John Dehlin [00:18:58] Okay, so just, just quickly. Mark Blanchard is one of the people. Lauren, I don't know if that name is familiar to you, but Mark is. He says my aunt married Chad Dabel's uncle. The last time I saw chad daybell was August 2019.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:11] Oh, wow.

Mindy Caldwell [00:19:13] There was somebody else that said that they were. They knew the Daybell family. That's in Springville, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Oh, there it is.

Mindy Caldwell [00:19:20] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Yeah. Well, that's. So Mark is saying I live in Springville. Chad and Tammy's Daybell's home. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:26] Yeah, they're both from there. And August would have been two months before Tammy passed away.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] So, Mark Blanchard, thanks for joining us. And we're glad you're with us. And Mindy, keep, keep flagging those as you see them. Aaron says, my husband and I attended high school at Chad and Tammy. This is Aaron Taylor Jones. I was Tam. I was Tammy's grade while my husband was in Chad's grade. So that's also super cool. And. And Lauren, you may get some sources out of this, out of this episode.

Lauren Matthias [00:19:54] I hope so. I'll talk to anyone.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Okay. Yeah. All right, so let's just jump in, just really quickly.

Guest [00:20:01] Just.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] We're not going to spend more than just a couple minutes on this, but as I was just trying to think about what elements of this case are really rooted in Christianity that can't really be blamed, so to speak, on Mormonism or even associated with Mormonism, these are some foundational elements I found. So a belief in God and Jesus in the Bible, that's obviously a really important pillar to this case. And if you believe in the Bible in the New Testament, then you believe in the teachings around Jesus's second coming. You know, there's a lot that you'll hear about, you know, Revelations and Isaiah, things in the Old and New Testament.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] You know, the teachings about 144,000, which is certainly in Revelations and also the Job's witnesses, make a big deal about the 144,000. But that's also, you know, just, just traditional Christian lore. This idea of a belief that we as humans have spirits or souls.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] You know, teachings that Jesus taught about there being angels and even devils that can possess our bodies and influence us in different ways. The idea of demonic possessions, that's, you know, obviously the Catholic Church in the movie Exorcist highlighted a long, rich tradition within Christianity of this idea of demonic possessions. Just this, the idea that you can pray to your heavenly father that there's an afterlife in heaven that we can all aspire to, that there are prophets that God sends who speak for God, that we all, you know, have spiritual gifts if we choose to develop them. That's definitely, I think, a New Testament concept and that, you know, and I don't want Christians to be mad at me, but you really can trace to Jesus himself at least two or three statements where he says that believing in Jesus is more important than family.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Those are just some of the teachings that I have teased out of Biblical Christianity that I think are foundational. Now, Lauren and Dr. John and then Mindy, are there. Do you guys agree with those? And are there any other foundational elements that you guys would. Would add or Dispute.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:17] I agree with all of those. I, I laurenharded. I wholeheartedly agree with all of them. I'm trying to think if there's any more that I would add right now, but I think that's a good Christian, you know, foundation there. Yeah, sorry. There are two Dr. John's in this.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Doctor. Dr. John will be Dr. John for today. I'll be just John.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:40] Okay.

John Matthias [00:22:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Okay. Dr. John, anything you would add or.

John Matthias [00:22:45] I feel badly when you say that because I want to acknowledge that you are a doctor, so. No, I, I think I agree with a lot of those. I think that's really an excellent summary. I would, I would add, though, that I think the elements of that list that led to murder would be very different than the general list. So I think we'll probably be talking about some of the elements in there that contributed, you know, more directly to the end result in the daybell case.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Excellent. Okay.

Guest [00:23:18] And.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] And of course, tons. You know, billions of Christians around the world, you know, believe in all these teachings and don't murder their spouses.

John Matthias [00:23:27] So.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] In no way am I trying to suggest that Christianity leads to murder. And, and, you know, I'll say the same thing about Mormonism in just a second.

Guest [00:23:37] But.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] Okay, so it sounds amini. Anything you want to add or tickle in?

Mindy Caldwell [00:23:40] That's a good list.

Guest [00:23:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Okay. So that's just kind of an introduction there. And then I also feel like there's just a little bit of background about Joseph Smith and Mormonism that might be useful for people to just get a taste of, to start listening for before we dive into the story, just so that we can kind of get a few terms and concepts kind of on the table.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] So this is a picture of Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of Mormonism, started Mormonism in 1830 in upstate New York. And then this is to the right is a picture of what's called the current Mormon Church First Presidency, which is Russell M. Nelson, the current prophet of the Mormon Church. And his, you know, he's the one seated. His face is below. And then, of course, Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring are first and second counselors.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] That's just who those dudes are. And a few of the principles that I think are foundational elements for this case. Mormons have a really strong tradition of this idea of personal revelation that you can pray to God and literally get answers to your prayers.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:49] Yes, that.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] I don't know if that's unique to Mormonism, but I would want to say that Mormonism sometimes can take that to another level.

Guest [00:24:57] Absolutely.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:57] I think that's accurate to say that that's unique.

John Matthias [00:25:02] Let me, let me interject on that point. As someone who was raised Lutheran, you know, I think Martin Luther tried to do the same thing when he rebelled against the Catholic Church. Right. Like he. The purpose of Lutheranism was a breakaway from, from the Catholic Church based upon that same principle, by the way, that Luther felt strongly that we could get personal revelation from God. So Luther was very interested in cutting out the middleman, which was the Pope. So, So I think there's some. I, I recognize some elements of Lutheranism there, too.

John Dehlin [00:25:40] Yeah, absolutely.

Mindy Caldwell [00:25:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] Yeah. And I don't, I don't mean to say that personal revelation is unique to Mormonism in any sense, but I, I, you know, we'll talk about how Mormons sometimes could take that to another level.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:52] I think, I think through the restoration, we can. Right. I think of Lutheran, you know, Martin luther. I think Dr. John is right. And I think it was also, you know, much. It was a long time ago. Right. Mormonism is more recent. But this idea that it wasn't just a reformation, but a restoration of the full truth in Mormonism, I think plays to that too. You know, it, I think a restoration is a lot more, it's a stronger term, stronger word than reformation. And so when you're claiming you have the authority from God and the whole truth, which is what a restoration is, I think it might take it to a whole new level.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] And I think, I think, you know, as I think about my understanding of Catholicism and let's just say Protestant Christianity, there's this idea that the Bible's been written the prophets, you know, we're living around Jesus's time or before God's kind of said what he's going to say to humans, and we just kind of have to run out the clock, live good lives, and someday Jesus is going to come again.

Guest [00:26:57] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] But with Mormonism, the founding story of Mormonism is Joseph Smith literally talking to Jesus and God. And it's like, not only are God and Jesus now talking to prophets again today in 2021, but also that you can talk to God too, and in very personal and direct ways that are maybe more concrete than the average Catholic or Christian.

Guest [00:27:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:25] That's kind of what I'm saying.

Mindy Caldwell [00:27:27] And members of the church, I think, still now say that the church is continuing to be restored, which I think makes it seem like the heavens are

Lauren Matthias [00:27:36] still open for the restoration of all

Mindy Caldwell [00:27:39] things is still ongoing. Yeah, it's still ongoing.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] So there's Just there's got to be new information and new light and knowledge. And that gives Mormons, some Mormons this yearning for more light and truth and knowledge and more revelation. And a lot of us want to be like Joseph Smith and see God in Jesus. Who doesn't want to see God in Jesus, right? And if Joseph can do it, maybe we can too. And, and anyway, I think that's, I think that's part of it.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] It's also important to mention that there's a reason why we're called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's because just like the Jehovah's Witnesses that were also formed in kind of the New England area in the mid to late 19th century, the church was formed as a millennialist kind of movement. Even Joseph Smith, before he died, was talking about Jesus is coming soon. We need to prepare for the millennium. You know, we're going to create the New Jerusalem in Missouri. We're going to gather there and then Jesus is going to come. And there were even, there was lots of talk about Jesus coming during Joseph Smith's lifetime.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] But then after he died, there were these rumors that sometime before 1890, Jesus was going to come again. And so there's this long tradition in Mormonism of talking about the second coming, obsessing about the second coming, even developing a years, you know, building up a year's worth of food storage so that you could prepare, have food for when the apocalypse happens or whatever. And then there's also these teachings in Mormonism about what some call the one mighty and strong, which is a teaching that comes out of the Doctrine and Covenants or I think what the, what some of the Preppers, Julie Rowe, etc. Believed or taught about, which was. Is it the Davidic servant? Is that the term that they use, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:29:29] Yes, that's the term which is that

John Dehlin [00:29:31] even though Joseph was the guy, there's going to be a guy or maybe a woman in modern times, in the 21st century, possibly, who's going to play a restorative role, maybe even as significant as Joseph Smith, if not more significant. Is that.

Lauren Matthias [00:29:47] Absolutely. That is a strong belief in you. You called it the neo, you named it the strong belief in the Prepper movement or the near death experience visionary LDS group. I don't know how, how to explain that. The Step up, the Tier two group, we're going to talk about the tears.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] Yeah, but, but, but Mormons are like not just, you know, they're looking for a new, like a intermediary savior to come in Modern times to usher in Jesus's second coming, basically.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:21] Yeah, well, and to add to that, I think you mentioned the Doctrine and Covenants and I think that's an important piece of scripture to talk about. Um, I served in my mission in Kirtland, Ohio where the majority of that book was written by Joseph Smith. And I think that we have the Book of Mormon, which is considered ancient prophets, something that Joseph Smith translated around the same time as the Bible. But the Doctrine and Covenants is modern day revelation. It's revelation given from God in Christ to Joseph Smith. And I think that takes Mormonism to a bit of a different level too or, you know, makes Mormon theology a little bit more unique that we have these modern day scriptures. So I want to point that out too.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] So I love it. Yeah, I do have to give a shout out to my friend Steve. He makes the comment, damn, Mindy looks good. Well, hey Steve, we love you.

Mindy Caldwell [00:31:18] Almost 25 years married.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:19] I'm glad he still thinks.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Shout out to Steve. Yeah, that's, that's important. Lauren, thank you so much.

John Matthias [00:31:28] I want to just go ahead, just jump in with an observation. I would just point out too that in Revelations, for example, this idea of, of the imminence of the second coming was, has been a common theme throughout history. So in Revelations, for example, the writer of Revelations, John, which is not John of the Gospels in the New Testament, it's a different John. He was very clear that this, that the second coming was going to happen very soon, imminently. And Jesus made comments to that effect too. So there's kind of this theme in, in this idea of the second coming that it's, it's going to happen soon, quickly. So I, I just thought that would be an observation I could make relevant to that.

John Dehlin [00:32:15] Yeah, that's great, that's great. Thanks, Dr. John. A couple other, some other really important Mormon themes that you'll want to watch for. Mormon has this, this notion of the plan of salvation where basically we existed as spirits that, that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother or heavenly Mothers created our souls or our spirits before this earth was ever created. And so this idea of we existed in a former life as God's spirit children. So that's kind of one state or the term probation you'll hear a little bit later, that's one state. And then our spirits are sent to this earth to incorporate bodies. And then when we die, our spirits will go to a holding place which could be viewed as another station.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] And then of course there's the ultimate resurrection and exaltation. So this idea of our spirits living through different stages or probations will, will come into play big time. But that certainly is a very Mormon teaching along with this idea of the veil, which is that if we lived as spirits prior to coming to this earth, why don't we remember it? Well, it must be that God put up some sort of what Mormons call a veil to help us, to make us forget that previous life.

Core Mormon Theological Concepts

John Dehlin [00:33:42] So that's called the veil of forgetfulness. And then there's this, this idea in Mormonism of, of seeing through the veil of people having special spiritual gifts where they can actually penetrate that veil of forgetfulness and remember things that happened previously in that previous life. Definitely a Mormon thing.

Mindy Caldwell [00:34:03] Or can possibly see into the future as well, right?

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Yeah, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:34:07] The veil goes previous and future veil going both ways.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] So that's, that's an important Mormon theme. Anything you guys want to jump in and just say about that?

Lauren Matthias [00:34:17] Yeah. Dr. John named our podcast season about the Daybells beyond the Veil. And I think that's actually a term that's used often in LDS theology when you can kind of feel things or view things as beyond the veil or it felt beyond the veil. You know, there are a lot of senses people use for, you know, feeling close to those who have passed, or so I think that that is important to note.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:51] I also want to say this, and, and I know we're not getting into different opinions of thoughts right now, but as someone that was raised lds, I never took the veil as like a literal piece of fabric. It was more of a metaphor, the way I was taught, and I don't know how others were taught. I'm just talking about my experience. But one thing I've discovered in studying the Daybell case is there are a lot of things like that, that some people were taught things a lot more literally than other people or take them more literally. And it seems that Chad Daybell thinks of this, you know, a little foreshadowing. Chad Dabel sees this veil as quite a literal, tangible piece of material that's been, you know, placed in front of

John Matthias [00:35:32] him, or he actually, he actually associates it with a part, a part of his brain as well. In his autobiography, he refers to when he has a near death experience that there's a portion of his brain, and I don't remember what it is exactly, but a portion of his brain changed or was impacted by his near death experience that allowed him then to see beyond the veil.

Lauren Matthias [00:35:57] His veil ripped.

John Matthias [00:35:58] So he actually sees it as a, as a very tangible part of the brain. That somehow has some connection to the veil.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:08] So a little foreshadowing on Chad there.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Love it. Love it. Okay, that's helpful. Some other. Some other Mormon themes Mormons really take. You know, Mormons share a belief in spiritual gifts with others, but I think Mormons can take that to the next level. Whether it's this idea that Joseph Smith used a stone and a hat to help, you know, see dig for buried treasure or to translate unknown, ancient languages that objects can have special power.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Look for that later in the story. Mormons have this tradition of patriarchal blessings where men, you know, senior men in the church will lay their hands on your head and literally predict your future, like a fortune teller. And those blessings or prayers are written down and. And really paid attention to and revered as Mormons during those patriarchal blessings, we're blessed with a spiritual lineage that is discerned somehow from heaven. And Mormons believe literally in the healing of sick, where you can lay your hands on people's head and heal them of illnesses. And then, of course, something that's probably not known to a lot of orthodox Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:37:23] And I know, Lauren, this is something you highlight in your podcast. There's a history of Mormonism, of women having and using their spiritual gifts and their spiritual powers, including women healing the sick and other sort of anointing and other sorts of things, along with women being declared eventually as. As goddesses in heaven.

Lauren Matthias [00:37:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] And these are all themes that are. That are important in the story. All true. Yeah. Okay. And that's just page one. If we go to page two, I. I'm going to add a few more

Mindy Caldwell [00:37:59] small layer of the. Antony.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Yeah. I'm helpful.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:03] You've done great, John.

Guest [00:38:04] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:38:05] I'm going to say that. That at least the Mormonism I grew up with, there was a. A real skepticism around science and of evidence and of critical thinking skills. Not every Mormon is gonna agree with that experience, but that was certainly mine. Evolution's bad. The earth is 6,000 years old. Psychologists are sketchy. Mental health professions bad like that. That certainly was my Mormonism growing up.

Guest [00:38:32] Same.

Mindy Caldwell [00:38:33] Very similar. Yes.

Guest [00:38:35] And.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] And Lauren. Yeah. You can speak up if you want to.

Lauren Matthias [00:38:40] Not as much as for me, but I. I do wholeheartedly agree with you that I recognize that everyone's Mormon experience is really different. And that's, you know, it's true. And it also depends on, I think, where we lived, where we were raised. And I agree that some are taught that I, I was taught to embrace evolution, but I hear you.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Matthias [00:39:04] When. When John Says that I feel like I need to ask permission to stay on. Now, am I good? Do I need to sign off?

John Dehlin [00:39:13] John, we're both, we're both, like, not credible. Just from the outset.

John Matthias [00:39:17] Okay. Yeah. Okay. But you. But I can stay on.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] You can stay on.

John Matthias [00:39:22] Okay, thank you.

Mindy Caldwell [00:39:22] Okay, we'll allow it.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] We'll allow it just for today. And then a couple other things. I think one thing that Mormonism probably shares with Catholicism is a heavy emphasis on sexual shame, which I think is going to play in. Joseph Smith has a history of polygamy and polyandry, you know, which is either him marrying multiple women or, you know, women being sealed to multiple men. That's definitely part of Joseph Smith's history. And that's. Believe it or not, this is something that many people don't know about. The, the, the Chad Dabell and Lori Valow case is that there, there is talk of polygamy and spiritual wifery and, and swinging. And that's something very much, very much have helped break that story.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] And we're going to be talking about that in part two. But, but we needed to introduce that concept today because it is, it is relevant. And you guys are going to find that really interesting. That's along with Mormon teachings around this idea of marriages are eternal. You can be sealed to people in the afterlife. Most orthodox Mormons believe that obviously that men and women can be sealed together as spouses for eternity. But what many orthodox Mormons don't know is that Joseph Smith sealed men to men and families to families in this sort of dynastic sealing sort of way. That's all going to play a role later.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] And then this idea that the culmination of the, the Mormon plan of salvation is literally that we can become gods and goddesses someday. The, the current Mormon church wants to downplay that teaching because it's embarrassing, especially when we, when we think about our evangelical brethren and sistren. But that's a real thing. And then I'll pause there.

John Matthias [00:41:16] Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:41:16] No, I'm just, I'm laughing at the sister.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] I'm being sarcastic. I know that's not how it's pronounced.

Lauren Matthias [00:41:21] I like that.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Actually, I'm being a little silly.

Mindy Caldwell [00:41:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:25] And then, and then we're going to get into this idea of Mormon neo fundamentalism, the Denver Snuffer and Julie Rose stuff, this idea that you can actually have a personal witness with Jesus. We're going to talk about that in just a second. And then just Mormonism. More. Utah and Idaho are two of the reddest states in the United States, there's a long tradition of sort of conservative Republican politics within Mormonism and Utah Mormonism and Idaho Mormonism. That, that, that sort of bleeds into sort of John Bircher society conspiracy theory, you know, New World order, end of times kind of thinking. And that's obviously going to really play into this whole case as well.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] So that's kind of setting it up and just giving people a little bit of an introduction of what to look for. And that will allow us to focus more on the case and allow people to connect whatever dots they want to connect. Mindy, anything you want to add?

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:28] You have been very comprehensive. That's great.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] Okay. Lauren, how about you?

Lauren Matthias [00:42:33] No, that was great. And that last bit.

John Matthias [00:42:34] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:35] As far as the conservative ideals, I want to take it a step further and say almost there's a bit of an anti government, us versus them mentality.

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:45] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:45] Because there are, you know, you know, there are conservative ideals and then there's, you know, we're going to talk about the Tier 3 belief system. I think we can do the same thing with this. It's. It's a little bit more extreme. It's us versus them persecution complex. You're right. The John Birch Society was big in. In East Idaho, especially Ezra Taft Benson being from there. He was an LDS leader who was very much a John Bercher, in my opinion. And I think that it's. It's extreme political views as far as being anti government. And then that delves into, I think, the whole prepping thing. Us versus them. Let's. Let's prepare. Let's get ready.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] I love it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:30] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] Lots of good comments coming in. I'll just share one. Elizabeth Grogan says it's difficult to understand how Mormons believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. There's so much evidence to the contrary and, you know, nuanced because there are lots of Mormons that believe in evolution and billions of years old earth. But if you read the Doctrine of Covenants, which you referenced, Lauren, which is Mormon scripture, it literally says in the Doctrine and Covenants that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:56] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] And I was taught, you know, I was taught those things.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:59] It does.

Guest [00:43:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Okay. So thanks to everyone for your comments and questions. I'll share one from Gerardo because he's my pal. Gerardo says second anointing or calling an election made sure. Is definitely a Mormon teaching. See Mormon Stories podcast.

John Matthias [00:44:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] And I don't know if the Chad Dabo and Lori Vallow case incorporates this idea of a second anointing but we'll use that as a teaser and we can, we can find out whether that's true. But we're always glad to hear from Gerardo.

Denver Snuffer and Fringe Mormon Movements

John Dehlin [00:44:30] Okay, so now we're ready to kind of jump into the main, the main elements of the story. And I think where we decided to begin was at a place where my, my associate, someone that I've had lunch with, my friend, Denver Snuffer, probably isn't going to like.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] The, the place where we decided to begin was to talk about what, what we've kind of labeled the Denver Snuffer near death experience, kind of Julie Rose style neo Mormon fundamentalism. And I can, I can talk a little bit about what I know about Denver Snuffer, but, but maybe Julie, I'll, I'll let you. Lauren, Lauren, I'll let you begin with, with anything you may want to say about that. And we actually have a clip of you discussing Denver Snuffer from your podcast as well.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:25] Okay. Okay. Well, it sounds like you know Denver a lot better than I do. I've never met him from, but I do know from Lori Daybell's very close friend that Laurie very much loved the book the Second Comforter.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:42] So much so that she was really pushing it on this friend of hers to read it and gave her a copy and said, you just have to read this. You have to read this. I understand the base, the basis of the book is that the second comforter experience is a vision with Jesus Christ himself, that we can all have that second comforter experience.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:04] And Lori absolutely believes she had that second comforter experience. And, and we have that in recordings and in testimony and in, in multiple records. We have Lori claiming that she cannot deny her vision with Christ. We have it in some fascinating podcast that we've heard with Chad and Lori as well, discussing her vision of Christ and his vision of Christ. So it also seems that Chad also believes in his vision with Christ.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] Yeah. And even to back up a tiny bit, like, I think maybe one way to kind of introduce this idea is to just talk about the notion of the fact that the Mormon Church.

John Matthias [00:46:46] Let's.

John Dehlin [00:46:47] If we're going to kind of try and look objectively at the church, there's a lot of people that find spiritual fulfillment and edification in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But it also is literally a corporation. I mean, the name of the church up until like last month was literally the corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's a more mature religious entity than Sort of a new emerging religious tradition that's only been around 10 or 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] It's a multi billion dollar organization that has become very correlated or standardized across the world. You all know Mormons by their white shirts and their ties and their conservative dress. And you know, the church has worked really hard to make the church experience across the world very uniform. And the, the good, the good about that is that, you know, no matter where you go, you have a comparable experience. If you go to the church, literally in Zimbabwe, you'll have local Zimbabweans, boys wearing white shirts and ties, not in their native dress, but looking like, you know, Utah mission missionaries straight out of the Book of Mormon musical passing the Sacrament.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] And so that's the good news. The bad news is there are many Mormons, I think in 2021 or over the past 10 or 20 years that have started to feel like maybe the church isn't meeting their spiritual needs, maybe the church isn't fulfilling all their spiritual desires, or maybe they just learn the milk, the basics, but they're looking for more meat. And so for me, the reason why I wanted to start with Denver Snuffer is because what he represents, he's the face of a branch of Mormonism that basically says or flavor of Mormonism that I'll just for now call neo Mormon fundamentalism. It's not Mormon fundamentalism in the sort of traditional Warren Jeffs polygamist in southern Utah, you know, Colorado kind of area.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] It's not that type of Mormon fundamentalism. But it's just this idea that the church is maybe becoming, it's maybe veering into apostasy. Maybe it's become too corporate, maybe it's become too materialistic, maybe it's become too stale. Maybe it's lost.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] It started de emphasizing the teachings of Joseph and of Brigham Young. And it started to become a little bit too corporate. And we need more spirituality. And that's what Denver Snuffer and his books, he started publishing books, let's just say, I don't know, 10 or 20 years ago, these books really started catching on. And he started saying, hey, cut out the middleman. The church is great. Joseph Smith was great, The Book of Mormon was great. But the modern church is really missing the boat. And you can have a personal witness with Jesus if you just go straight to Jesus.

Guest [00:49:36] And.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] And Denver started getting a really big following of tens of thousands of orthodox believing Mormons started even having meetings and he would hold events. And this is all leading up to 2013, when Denver snuffer was actually called, you know, into a disciplinary council. He lives in Sandy, Utah. And ironically, on like the 20th anniversary of the September 6X Communications in September of 2013, 20 years after the 1993 September 6 excommunications, Denver snuffer was in fact excommunicated from the Mormon Church for apostasy. And his movement only grew after that. And, and while, you know, there may not be direct ties to Julie Rowe and Chad Dabell

John Dehlin [00:50:27] and Lori Valo and others, although there are, you know, I wondered whether there would even be a Lori Valo or a Julie Rowe and a Prepare the People and in a vow in a prepper movement without some of the groundwork that, that Denver Snuffer laid. Now, Mindy, do you have a, do you have a reaction to that? Does that seem far fetched?

Mindy Caldwell [00:50:47] No, I think that that's, I think you're connecting the dots probably pretty accurately.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [00:50:52] That there's a lot of people that are just thirsty and hungry for just more not getting what they want. And I think that Denver's movement is a start of that. And I think a lot of these things just came after that.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] Yeah. Lauren, what do you think? Do you think we're stretching it there? I know Denver will not like this association, but.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:11] Well, I've already mentioned some things about Denver Snuffer. Very, in my opinion, harmless things. We try to stay very neutral and I've already had a lot of people get offended. I've learned that I'm not supposed to use the term snufferites and some other things, you know, as I've delved into Denver Snuffer. But I think, yes, I agree with you.

Guest [00:51:31] Let.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:31] I'll tell you a little bit of my journey in, in covering the Daybell case is that I didn't, I understood that the LDS Church does seem to grab hold of. There are a lot of breakoff groups and I think there always has been a lot of breakoff groups in the LDS Church since its beginning because of two main points in history.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:53] I mean, it's a young church. Joseph Smith is a prophet who saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. The church was persecuted. You know, they were, you know, Governor Boggs, you know, the extermination order, there was this persecution and then on top of it, to just solidify everything. Joseph Smith, a prophet of God was killed in Carthage jail. He was murdered. And there's this moment in history, this period where every person can go back to and say, well, what was really supposed to happen there? Because there was confusion in the church who was supposed to Lead next, was it going to be Brigham Young or was it going to be, you know, Joseph Smith's children, or was it going to be Oliver Cowdery?

Lauren Matthias [00:52:38] And I think that anyone can always go back to this point in history and say, well, this, you know, Joseph Smith was a prophet, so I'm going to still believe in the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, but they, they were led astray at point A or point B or point C. And so I also see Denver Stuffer as something that's happened again and again and again in LDS history. At the same time, I find it fascinating in this day and age, in this modern history that so many people, you know, Mormons label each other. So let's label ourselves for saying we have the orthodox Mormons, the progressive Mormons, the, you know, the, the ex Mormons, the, you know, there's all these terms.

Lauren Matthias [00:53:30] I had no idea until I delved into the Daybell case how big this group of people who strongly believe in Joseph Smith right now, strongly believe in, in LDS roots is. But, and they, they will not deny Joseph Smith as a prophet, but they do not believe in the LDS Church. And that's been a unique discovery to me in covering this case. And I think that Denver Snuffer absolutely represents that, that, yes, we believe in Joseph Smith and this idea that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist and thus the church, you know, is corrupt and we believe in Joseph Smith, but the LDS Church has it wrong.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] I love it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:54:15] So good.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] Chad. Dr. John, is there anything else you wanted to add to that or.

John Matthias [00:54:23] I don't, I'm not particularly familiar with that strand of thought, so probably not. But I'll be more interested in a possible connection. Is there a connection between Denver Snuffer and near death experiences?

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Right.

Guest [00:54:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Okay, that's great. So we've got, we've got, we've got a clip of Lauren. You talking about Denver Snuffer. Is this clip basically what you just said, that, that basically Lori Valo read Denver Snuffer's book? Is that.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Is this okay.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:58] So you can go ahead and play it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] Do you think it's worth playing?

Lauren Matthias [00:55:03] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] Okay, so what we want to do as part of this episode is just highlight some of the amazing videos that you will see when you go to the Hidden True Crime podcast. So the first clip we have is of, of Lauren just talking about the connection between Denver Snuffer and, and Lori Valo. Debel. So let's, let's roll.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:55:31] Towards the end of tonight's conversation I brought up a book that I know Lori Davel has read and that she likes. I clearly didn't delve deep enough into this topic because I've learned that the Internet and true crime groups across social media tonight are filled right now with people asking who is Denver Snuffer? So I figured before I head to bed, I'll do a quick follow up and answer the question. First, let me explain how I know that Lori Daybell has read and likes this book called the Second Comforter by Denver Snuffer Jr. It comes from a reliable source. April Raymond, who was Lori's friend at the time, shared this with me.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:10] We are very grateful for the info April has passed along as we try to make sense of this tragedy and she did say I could share this particular piece of information. John and I had questions about Lori's beliefs and one of those beliefs that we discussed in our last couple of podcast episodes is Laurie's claim that she has met Christ face to face. So in this book, the Second Comforter by Denver Snuffer Jr. I love saying that name. He allegedly claims in this book that he has seen Christ and gives readers a step by step formula to having their own second comforter experience.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:45] So who is Denver Snuffer Jr. Besides that guy with a really unique name? I like saying he was a convert to the LDS Church, an attorney in Utah now, and was excommunicated from the church in 2013 because he refused to stop publishing one of his books, the Challenged LDS Orthodoxy. Does this sound familiar? He has followers. They're called Snufferites. Yes, Snufferites. Many consider Snuffer Jr. A prophet and consider his books like scripture. Which is clearly true because this book that we bought used, has a message in it for the person they're giving it to. And they say that this is the most helpful book we've ever found next to the scriptures.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:25] Merry Christmas. Love, Katie. So whoa. While Snuffer wrote this book, the Second Comforter, before he was excommunicated from the LDS Church, Lori Daybell was reading it well after Snuffer's excommunication. When Laurie visited April in 2018, Lori was reading this book and gave April a copy. So how or why does this matter? I don't know yet. I'm still investigating. But I'll be reading this book for all of you in the coming weeks. I think it does show that Lori was invested in learning about deeper religious beliefs that weren't being taught to her in church. It's possible that this is when Laurie started to believe she could have her own visit from Christ.

Video Clip 1 [00:58:08] But again, I'm not sure yet. Hopefully through reading the book, I'll learn more about where Laurie's beliefs stem from and who influenced her beyond just Chad Daybell. And when I finish, I will give a full report.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] So that that gives everyone a sense for not only Denver Snuffer's involvement potentially, or at least association with some of the characters, but also it gives a sense, Lauren, for what you do on your podcast, which is to kind of just share bits and pieces through YouTube and then also through your podcast of elements that you think might be interesting or relevant. And I love the idea that even with this episode, we can call out to people and say, hey, if you know of connections between Deborah Stuffer and yes, right, feel free to reach out to Lauren and Dr. John and you guys can share those. And it could be kind of a bi directional, even crowdsourcing sort of engagement, which, which is part of the idea of journalism and, and doing true crime investigations. Is that right?

Lauren Matthias [00:59:30] Absolutely. John and I have never claimed from the beginning that we know everything. What we've done is journeyed with our listeners to figure this out. As I say, unpeel the layers of the onion. So we're not all knowing. We are learning along with our listeners and we value every source that has been able to help us along this journey.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] I love it. Okay, and a second clip that we have is the introduction of Julie Rowe. And before we actually dive into

Julie Rowe and Near-Death Experience Culture

Guest [01:00:04] the

John Dehlin [01:00:04] video clip, what is it? You know, Lauren, what would you want to say about who Julie Rowe was? And. And then we also need to talk about near death experiences a little bit. So talk about near death experiences and then talk about Julie Rowe. And then we'll play a little bit of a clip just as an introduction to her as a character.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:26] Great, thank you. And, and Dr. John, my. Dr. John is right, that near death experiences play a huge part in the, the Daybell case. And I interviewed Eric Smith, who believes in Julie Rowe having gifts. We're about to talk to. And he, he said himself that this prepper movement is very much. They all read a lot of near death experience books. That's sort of part of this movement.

Lauren Matthias [01:00:54] And so Julie Rowe came on the scene with a near death experience book published by Chad Daybell. Chad Daybell published was Julie Rose, publisher. She wrote near death experience books. And all of the near death experience books that we're talking about, they're not just, you know, I died, I saw light. I knew that there was, you know, you know, a place that we went to that was happy. I saw heaven, I met God, It's. I saw the calamities of the earth. I saw the second coming, I saw the danger ahead. I saw mountains cross crumbling. I saw death and destruction. I saw warnings. So these near death experience books, I think that's important to point out, aren't just about oh, I saw the other side and it was really great.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:46] Everyone, there's, there's more to this life. It's more of look out, it's coming. And you know what? I'm the only one that can tell you about it because I saw it. So listen to me because I had a near death experience. And so that is who Julie Rowe is, I think. A great introduction and, and it began with, with Chad as her publisher of these books.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] I love that. And just to add my two cents, because I was kind of an observer of a lot of this just because I've been following Mormonism for 20 to 50 years, depending on how you count. But I remember when Julie Rowe comes on the scene, obviously years before I ever heard about Chad or Laurie. But when I first heard about Julie Rowe, it wasn't totally new to me because just like there's been a strain of like conservative Republican politics within Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] I've always been aware within Mormonism of a strain of kind of, let's just call it New Agey kind of woo practices that you call it holistic healing, call it energy work, call it essential oils, call it muscle memory, muscle testing, you know, crystals. Like there are lots of different ways that sort of this, this Mormon and a flavor of Mormonism or an extension of Mormonism that probably is, is strays towards the more rural Mormon participants in places like Utah, rural Utah, rural Idaho, maybe the bit less educated people, less professional, but I don't want to make any of those rigid classifications, but just you know, even, even a tendency to believe in mediums or, or spiritualists, psychics, psychics.

John Dehlin [01:03:44] Yeah, for me that's not, it's, it's never been a part of my Mormonism per se, but I've always been aware of kind of an element of woo, New agey, spiritualistic type Mormonism. Mindy, I'm struggling to describe this. Is this at all ringing?

Mindy Caldwell [01:04:00] Yes, I understand what you're trying to say and I wanted to talk really quickly about along the lines of the near death experiences and what Lauren was saying about that these aren't just kind of your run of the mill like dreams or vision, you know, visions that happen when these People claim to have these near death experiences, but there's, it's calamity, it's, it's destruction and death. You know, along the lines of what we, we read about in Revelations. And, and I was thinking about how I think it's. Some people think it might be just a really small segment of, of people who, you know, kind of buy into this stuff.

Mindy Caldwell [01:04:39] But I was, I was looking at. There's a website called avow and I think we'll probably address that later, but I think it goes right here. It's, it's an acronym, a VOW for Another voice of Warning. And, and I, if I'm not mistaken, I think you have to pay in order to participate in the forums. And I think that is where many people will get on and talk about their, their visions of the last days and of the destruction. And there are 20, 000 people, I checked today, there are 20, 000 people who are on that website.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:11] So it's, it's not a small thing. And I think it said there was like 190,000 topics that they cover. And so I mean there's a lot of people that are, that are hearing these visions and these stories and taking them seriously and you know, oftentimes changing their lives drastically to follow what they believe is being prophesied or predicted with these people in their visions.

Guest [01:05:38] I love it.

Lauren Matthias [01:05:39] Thanks for saying that. And a little foreshadowing. Yes, Chad was a big part and a big voice on avow. Another voice of warning towards the end of tonight's conversation.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] And, and I'll also just say that when Julie Rowe breaks onto the scene, I remember her first being known not just for near death experiences, but also for having visions, for predicting the future and for her work as an energy healer. And that's kind of how I first learned about Julie Rowe and that she somehow the ability to heal people through energy work. And so I'm going to go ahead and just now really play a brief clip and Lauren, this is entitled announcement November 11, 2019. If I'm right, this is going to be, this is going to be an announcement that, that comes on YouTube before the Chad and Lori story breaks publicly. Is that right?

Lauren Matthias [01:06:43] That, that is right, yes. It broke in December, a month later.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] And this is going to be giving a preview to the relationship a little bit between Julie and, and Chad. But what it gives you a sense for is kind of who, who Julie was and kind of what she did. And then I'm going to play a brief clip of her twirling the colored rainbow flags as well.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:07] Do you want to say who the other person is in this video?

John Dehlin [01:07:10] Yeah. Yeah. Why don't you?

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:11] Yeah. So the gentleman that's interviewing Julie here, his name is Eric Smith, and he is very, very involved in this. In this kind of movement. Multiple probation, line of thinking as well, so.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] And he often kind of plays the interviewer to Julie Rowe when they do youtubes together.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:30] Seems that way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] Yeah. And. And later, I'm going to be talking about how important I think he is to this whole story. I think he's critical and understanding the connections to Mormonism and to Joseph Smith, honestly. But that's a.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:43] Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] That's a teaser as well. But then we'll just play a brief clip that is just introducing Julie Rowe and her personality and her business and her gifts. I say in quotes, kind of to our audience. So here we go.

Guest [01:08:05] Hi. Welcome to the Julie Roche Show. Hi, Eric.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:08] Hey, Julie.

John Matthias [01:08:09] But this isn't a normal podcast today.

Guest [01:08:11] This is an announcement podcast episode.

Guest [01:08:13] This is going to be a great announcement podcast. We have some good news. So do you want to start or should I?

John Dehlin [01:08:20] I think you should. You've got the energy that matches the

Guest [01:08:24] intent, so the intensity of what we're doing. Oh, gosh. Okay. Okay, first thing, we're gonna get business out of. Out of the way. We have registration open for my group energy classes for next year. Eric, do we have them all on there or just the first few?

John Dehlin [01:08:40] I think they're all listed right through the very last one in Rexburg in

Guest [01:08:45] what, next November, I think.

Guest [01:08:46] November, yeah. Okay, so acuity scheduling. We have all of the venues selected so far except for Bristol, England, and Salt Lake City, but we are working on those. Everything else has been secured and I am committed. Unless I have some unforeseen emergency that prevents me from coming, I am planning on teaching those classes. So right now we have maybe 20 people signed up for Layton. That's January 25th in Layton, Utah. I can see, I think, between 100, 150, so plenty of room. You guys go ahead and get signed up now. The sooner the better. That helps me out on my finances so that I can take care of security and all the. All the other expenses. So, anyway.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] Oh, sorry. So we're getting. We're getting some feedback that the video clips aren't loud enough, and we apologize for that. Our. Our monitors show that. That it's loud enough. And so we'll have to just figure out how to fix that in post production as well. But. But, Lauren, I just want to Give you a chance to kind of give our listeners a sense for what they just heard. What Julie Rose introducing there, kind of what her gifts, you know, she claims her gifts are. And then also I'll play, while you're kind of introducing her, a video clip of her in front of an audience kind of twirling some rainbow flags. And I just want to help you set up kind of what power she, she seems to be claiming to have. Does that make sense?

Lauren Matthias [01:10:35] That makes sense. And Dr. John, if you want to join into what you think she's all about, but Julie believes that she can see almost everything in the future. She definitely sees beyond the veil. This video, by the way, I want to credit this video. This was taken by someone in a Facebook group called True Crime Underground Lori Daybell Cult mom and that's been a fascinating group to be in. I have been introduced through studying this case of web detectives and the incredible things they do. And someone from this group actually went with this camera and recorded this and gave it to us. So I just want to share that backstory too.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:17] It's pretty amazing what people are willing to do to uncover true crime on the Internet. And they do an amazing job. And it's usually people that really care. So Julie Rowe, she believes she can see everything. She can see into the future. She has all of those near death experiences under her belt. She can see the calamity that's coming. She can predict earthquakes, natural disasters. What else? Dr. John?

John Matthias [01:11:41] She, she can, she can heal remotely. She can control energy, which, you know, she, as you can see in this, she, as you can see in this video, I think these videos are symbolic of past probations or past identities that she's had or occupied. So she comes out with these different Personas during her, her workshops. And each Persona, I think, is somewhat symbolic of a past probation.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:15] That's a good point that you just brought up, Dr. John, in this, in this conference that somebody went to from this Facebook group, True Crime Underground Lori Daybell Cult MOM and the group actually raised money because this was a 500, I think at least 500, if not 800 event per person. The group raised money for this person to go. And she dressed up as different characters that she was in past probation. So at one point she put on a Native American headdress and said that. And then she mentioned that she was a rape victim in past probation. So she understood all sexual assault survivors in the room because she had been raped in past probations. Those are a couple of the things she did in this particular Conference.

Guest [01:12:56] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] Anything you want to add, Mindy to that?

Mindy Caldwell [01:12:58] Oh, just somebody in the comments said give, give credit to Carl. Is Carl the name of the person who Carl Danger.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:04] Carl Danger runs True Crime Underground. And I want to say this about Carl Danger. I've interviewed him and I want to say something about these true crime groups too. So people don't, you know, think, oh, true crime, you guys are, you know, what is it with YouTube? A lot of the people that are into these true crime groups have been victims themselves. So I don't want to say that Carl Danger's son was young son was murdered and he runs these groups and he's passionate about it. And so I want to put that out too, because a lot of people make fun of people that like true crime.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:32] I've learned a very different story since involving myself in this story is that these web detectives are really passionate because they understand how important it is. And so, yes, Carl Danger, I think Julie Rowe knows that now too, because she's called Carl Danger out in some of her videos for attending this with a secret camera. But yes, he money was raised for him to attend and he gave a full report.

Mindy Caldwell [01:13:58] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] I love it. Okay, so that, you know, talking about near death experiences, what I call Mormon neo fundamentalism. Julie Rowe Denver SNUFFER Setting a stage for kind of the thirst that a certain strand of Mormons kind of have for turning up the spiritual heat or the spiritual volume. I think that lays a good foundation for the next kind of major segment of this episode, which is kind of giving a background on Chad Daybell himself. And you guys have some amazing content on your YouTube channel, at least a couple episodes that I listen to that really dive into Chad's family life and his upbringing and even his psychology.

Chad Daybell's Psychology and Early Life

John Dehlin [01:14:48] And I don't expect you guys to cover all that ground here, but maybe Dr. John, I think it would be really useful for you to spend a few minutes painting a psychological portrait of Chad Daybell and what influences what childhood and youth and young adult influences may have.

John Dehlin [01:15:08] Are important to know when understanding kind of where he ends up arriving to and know that we have a clip in here both of him talking about at least one of his near death experiences. The one where he's diving, I believe, flaming gorge in flaming gorgeous. And then we also have a clip later of him describing his dream. And this is both from your channels, I believe, where he's describing his dream, that it relates to his eventual publication. So we'll, we'll ask you to kind of pause and say, let's Roll the video for. For each. Whenever in your narration of Chad's story, you feel like it's time to kind of play those clips. Does that make sense?

John Matthias [01:15:48] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] Okay.

John Matthias [01:15:51] Yeah. So this comes from Chad's autobiography. It's called Living on the Edge of Heaven, and that's where I get a lot of my information about Chad. He also wrote another book called One Foot in the Grave, where he talks about working as a cemetery sexton, and he talks about some personal experiences in there as well. But I think one thing that stands out about Chad's background is that not a lot stands out. So in the sense that I think, you know, the way a psychologist might describe his background is it's fairly unremarkable.

John Matthias [01:16:21] There was no abuse. There was no trauma that we're aware of. There was no physical abuse, sexual trauma. Kind of the markers that. That I might look for in terms of explaining future violence, a lot of those are absent. However, what's interesting. One of the most interesting things in his autobiography, I talk about this on the podcast is the fact that he. He never references his mother. He talks about his mother, I think, two or three times in the book. He talks about his father and his grandfather quite a bit. So that, you know, that's kind of an interesting omission to me.

John Matthias [01:16:57] And it suggests that perhaps he wasn't as close to his mother or, you know, we've heard from some sources that he had some conflict with his mother. So one inference to make from that, and this is pure speculation, but, is that there may have been some attachment issues. In other words, when we think of children being raised by really loving caregivers, they develop attachments to them. And generally speaking, there's two kinds of attachments. There's secure attachments and insecure attachments. And insecure attachments can be broken down into categories, but let's just stay with those broad categories.

John Matthias [01:17:38] You know, I think it's not unreasonable to infer, and this is a big inference, but that perhaps there was an insecure attachment there with Chad Daybell. And that might explain kind of the lack of trust in the world, the lack of trust in others going forward, kind of this appeal of prepping and this need for certainty that he seems to demonstrate.

John Matthias [01:18:07] One story that we talk about is in the podcast is that he was walking home from school one day. This was like. I don't remember exactly how old he was.

John Dehlin [01:18:18] Where's he growing up?

Lauren Matthias [01:18:19] Springville.

John Matthias [01:18:20] Springville. Utah.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] Utah.

Guest [01:18:21] Okay.

John Matthias [01:18:22] Yeah. So he grows up in Springville, and he's there. I. I Think he's, he's actually, he's spending most of his young adult life there as well. But one day he's walking home from school and he encounters this hive of bees and he proceeds to start killing them. And, and, and he talks about that. He actually says that he kind of enjoyed that experience. And so that was, that was a little bit of an interesting red flag to me because while it may not be atypical for a child to harm bees, perhaps as an ex, in maybe an experimental way or curious way, the fact that he enjoyed that experience is a bit peculiar. And, you know, it, it raises a

John Dehlin [01:19:15] little bit of what I learned about Jeffrey Dahmer. Not to, yeah, maybe make too much of a comparison there, but this idea of somehow driving joy or satisfaction out of punishing innocent or vulnerable creatures, I don't know, isn't that kind of a

Mindy Caldwell [01:19:29] common, common thread for some.

John Matthias [01:19:32] For, for, yeah, you know, harming animals is, is very, very common with serial killers. But, you know, bees are slightly different in the sense that they could be perceived as, as causing harm or, you know, a lot of the serial killers will injure, you know, pets like dogs or cats or, you know, bees might be a little atypical in the sense that potentially they could be, see, be perceived as harmful. And, but he doesn't, you know, he does describe, I think he describes the story more like a Dahmer type character in the sense that he really, once he starts killing these bees, he keeps going.

John Matthias [01:20:08] And I think he killed like 120 bees. So. And the only way he stops is he hears a voice which presumably he says it's, it's coming from outside of him, but presumably it's his conscience. The voice is telling him to stop and he stops. So that's another interesting piece of that story, is that he doesn't have the internal mechanisms to see that what he's doing is potentially wrong, that he needs kind of this outside influence to get him to stop. So, I mean, it's outside, it's outside

John Dehlin [01:20:41] his, let's just say, consciousness, but it's still all happening within his head.

John Matthias [01:20:47] Right? Yeah, yeah, it's. It's clearly. But, but his perception, it. Right, right, it's. Yeah, it's, it's, it's very much happening within his head, but his perception is that it's not so. And that probably fits some of the earlier stuff we just, you just talked about in terms of Christian and Mormon influences. There's a story about the family that, you know, we talked to a source who said that One of her children was visiting the day bells and spent the night. And the next day, when the source picked this.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Her.

John Matthias [01:21:27] Her child up, that the child had sores all over the legs. And so the parent learned that. That. That this was bedbugs. And so the parent contacted the day bells and said, you know, we think you have a bedbug problem. I'm a little concerned. You know, my. My child has these marks all over her body. You know, could you. Could you please remedy this before my daughter comes over again? And they said, yeah, yeah, of course. And then the problem was never remedied.

Guest [01:22:08] So.

John Matthias [01:22:09] And this was several months later that this occurred, so that her child went back and got bedbugs again and then never sent her child over there again because clearly they weren't going to do anything about it. And I think this is an interesting story in the sense that it really shows how this family solves problems or doesn't solve problems. Right. So that you can infer from that story that there's this lack of communication in general in the. In the family. There's probably some lack of leadership in the sense that neither parent is willing to really take control of this problem or solve it, or neither perceives it to be important enough to solve.

John Matthias [01:22:50] So even though there's a consequence in the community, which is that someone close to the family is concerned that her daughter can't visit. So. But the family just doesn't do anything, and they just kind of avoid it. And I. I think that's a good way of. Of thinking of Chad's upbringing, that there's some avoidance. There's maybe a lot of avoidance. There's avoidance of emotions. There's avoidance of communication.

John Matthias [01:23:17] There's probably an avoidance of talking about issues that really matter. So my guess is they're probably talking about a lot of things on the surface. Many superficial conversations around the dinner table. They're talking about the weather. They're not talking about, you know, traumas or hurts at school or, you know, they're just. They're keeping things simple, you know, So I think, you know, the bedbug story really kind of gives this general picture of the Daybell family and how they operate and how they solve problems and how they communicate. I think it's a wonderful metaphor for.

John Matthias [01:23:53] For Chad's upbringing. You know, I think Chad himself, as. As we know from his autobiography, he. He doesn't communicate directly with Tammy either. He. He's very passive aggressive. He's very indirect. He probably doesn't deal with his emotions well at all. I Think many of the things you see in the bedbug story also apply to Chad's later adult life.

John Dehlin [01:24:18] I love it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:19] Good points. Can we talk about really quickly one of those, one, one of the ways that illustrates how passive, passive aggressive chat is where. And I, I know that, that Dr. John and Lauren, you address this on your podcast. Oh, before I, I say that the, the podcast that you talk about the bees and some other. Of the, of the Daybell family Dynamics is episode 11 of the Hidden A True Prime Minister Crime podcast. So I would point listeners in that direction for some really interesting tidbits. But there was a, an incident where Tammy, Chad's wife, was playing a lot of, of a phone. A game on her phone. Farmville.

Lauren Matthias [01:25:03] I think it was frontierville.

Mindy Caldwell [01:25:05] Frontierville. Oh, pardon me. Thank you, Lauren, for the, for the clarification. And I'm guessing that, that Chad was uncomfortable with how much time she was playing on the game. So instead of approaching her and asking her to stop playing the game or that he felt like she was spending too much time, he tells Tammy that her dead grandmother came to him in a vision saying that she was unhappy with how much of the game that Tammy was playing. So that's just an illustration of how, of how he just didn't deal with issues in a direct way.

John Dehlin [01:25:40] And he's growing up as a woman in the church and just in, in a male led church. What, what, what stuck out for you about that story? What was interesting for you about that, Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [01:25:50] Oh, I just feel it's just another illustration of how, you know, sometimes you feel like you have to listen to your, you know, the priesthood holder that's, that's over you or, you know, and I think that he, he knew that he had that, that power over her and probably exercised that. I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that that's the type of dynamic that their marriage had.

John Dehlin [01:26:11] Kind of pulling rank through claims of spiritual.

Guest [01:26:15] Sure.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:15] Whether he asked herself or he, you know, used the grandmother line, it's all just like I've, I've received this on behalf of you and, and now you must follow.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:25] That grandmother even swore at her Chad. Her. The grandmother swore.

Guest [01:26:30] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:30] I mean, I mean, throw that in there too.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:32] I mean, feisty.

Lauren Matthias [01:26:33] We know what Chad really wanted to say to Tammy because the grandmother said it for him.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:37] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] And what immediately comes to my mind and I, I hope people are okay with me drawing this parallel is when, when Emma Smith was objecting to Joseph Smith's polygamy, he miraculously receives a revelation. And this is in doctrine and covenants 132.

Guest [01:26:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:26:51] Where Emma's told that if she doesn't get in line about polygamy, she will literally be smitten.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:56] Destroyed.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] She will be destroyed.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:58] Yeah.

Guest [01:26:58] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:26:59] And so there is a Mormon element to that, to that dynamic of the male authority figure having, through the priesthood, the direct line with God and being able to put the woman in her place through that sort of revelation.

Mindy Caldwell [01:27:14] And certainly not in every relationship or every family. But I do think that it is probably fairly common.

Guest [01:27:20] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:21] Do you have anything to say, Dr. John, about that?

John Matthias [01:27:23] Well, you know, I, I would address it from a psychological perspective, but I, I think what I would say is there's just a complete lack of assertiveness, you know, that he's like, is in his family. There's a real avoidance of what's really going on.

John Matthias [01:27:39] So, yes, it seems like he solves this problem through spiritual means rather than normal direct communication with her. For example, asking her, are you depressed? You know, another interesting thing about the Daybell family is we know that three of the five siblings went on to have significant substance abuse problems, so had serious drug issues. And for me, that usually speaks exactly to what we're talking about, that the drugs. Typically drug addiction tends to be a type of self medication and what's being medicated are negative emotions usually.

John Matthias [01:28:17] So this is a family that didn't deal with their emotions at all and especially negative emotions. And that in. And that caught up with the kids later when they started becoming addicted to various types of drugs.

Lauren Matthias [01:28:30] I have a lot of empathy for Tammy Daybell. I think she was a really good wife to Chad. I think that she probably, in my opinion, didn't believe everything he told her, but went along with it and learned how to dance the dance with him, you know, and, and raised her kids. She ran their publishing company. She worked full time. She, you know, she was an incredible woman.

Lauren Matthias [01:28:55] And another story of Chad being passive aggressive is aggressive is found in his book One Foot in the Grave about his time as a cemetery sexton. And he said that his close high school friend kept speeding through the cemetery and not obeying the laws.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:11] Ironic, I know. Not obeying the laws of the land to not speed. And he had no choice but to call the police and request them to stop his best friend and ticket him for speeding. And I thought, wait, okay, hold on. He's your friend, but you're not going to call him and say, this is bothering me. You're going to call the police and make sure he gets a ticket. I mean, it's the same kind of passive aggressive way he deals with difficult situations.

John Matthias [01:29:39] And it's punitive. It shows that they're, they're, you know, instead of, instead of keeping that friendship and picking up his cell phone and resolving it like a normal person, he has to punish him. Right. So it's, it's not just solving the problem. It's solving the problem with this punitive element on top. Right. And, and so that speaks to a real rigidity in Chad Daybell.

Guest [01:30:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] And Mindy, really quickly, I wanted to ask you just your opinion on this. It's not like Mormons invented passive aggressiveness per se, or the lack of having kind of healthy emotional intimacy within a family network. And wouldn't you say that sort of some of that passive aggressiveness is, is kind of, and, and avoiding the elephant in the room and talk, keeping things on a superficial level, Would you say that, that, that can be relatively common in kind of the Mormon experience? I know you were raised in, in Utah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:30:41] Yes, oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think that there's a, there's a high pressure to, to look, you know, you know, all put together and have your family, you know, seem like everything just looks great. And so I think there's a lot of, a lot of avoiding, you know, difficult things, whether privately or publicly. I think just to kind of keep up the Persona of, you know, all is well in Zion and sounds like, you know, that, that could have been at play with the, with the Daybell family.

John Dehlin [01:31:12] Yeah. Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [01:31:14] Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [01:31:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Okay, so let's, let's talk about, let's set up this clip that we've got. We've got this clip of Chad's first near death experience. I know. I've listened to enough of your videos that you talk about. Maybe Chad had a bit of an inferiority complex, you know, wanted to be successful, but maybe didn't always have the success that he wanted at first. What, what would you guys like to say about Chad's history? That would be a good setup to this clip where he talks about that at least one of his near death experiences. And if you want to talk about both, one of them before, one of them after, whatever you want. How would you want to set up this clip? And maybe Dr. John will have you go first.

Lauren Matthias [01:32:04] Yeah, Dr. John should go first. I think you should tell that story about him walking to school, too. Anyway. Go ahead, babe.

Guest [01:32:13] Yeah.

John Matthias [01:32:13] You know, it's interesting that I liked what you just said, John, in terms of inferiority complex. Because a lot of people have asked me, you know, well, if he didn't come from an abusive home or a violent home or a really bad home, then how did he get there?

John Matthias [01:32:31] And, you know, my answer to that is you don't necessarily need to be abused or traumatized to, to go on and commit violence. I think that the issue with Chad Daybell is that he didn't get enough attention. He wanted to feel special and he wanted to feel. He wanted a lot of acknowledgement and he wasn't getting that from his family or he wasn't getting that at school. I think his childhood was very ordinary and this was a child who wanted to feel special. There's, there's a moment in his book which I think is pivotal, where he talks about, he's at the BYU campus and it's in the middle of the winter and, and he's walking to a class and he says, I felt all alone, like nobody in the world cared for me, and that he didn't matter.

John Matthias [01:33:15] And the importance of that is that it shows that he really wants to feel significant. I guess we all do. That's a very common human trait. But, but with Chad, I think, I think that he wanted a lot more than he was getting in terms of attention, love, acknowledgment in his family.

John Matthias [01:33:35] And one way or another, Chad was going to find a way to accomplish that. And so I think that sets the tone for his near death experiences. His books, a lot of the things he was doing to seek attention and fame that come into play later are really put in motion during his childhood from this family that was sort of distance and didn't really acknowledge him as being special. His siblings were very talented.

Guest [01:34:01] They.

John Matthias [01:34:01] So they were competitors. So I think it's interesting that you can have a perfectly normal childhood, but if you have a child in that culture, in that environment, that's not getting his or her needs met or that has some desire for feeling particularly special, that can still create later problems.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] I love it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:34:21] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] We just got a comment from Jaciera Baldeo. I don't know how to pronounce that name, but it's a really good comment. She writes, not getting enough attention is a form of trauma. What do you think about that, Dr. John?

John Matthias [01:34:34] Yeah, I mean, that. That's what we call neglect. So would I go so far as to say that he was neglected? You know, probably not. I think we tend to think of neglect in terms of, you know, is there food on the table? Is the, is there shelter right like neglect, generally speaking, at least from a, a child protection standpoint, the bar would be a lot higher there, you know, so, you know, in terms of a typical childhood, I, I don't think he's getting neglected, but is he getting emotionally neglected? Yeah, I think, I think that would be a good argument. I, I don't disagree with that part.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] Got it. Lauren, anything you want to add about Chad and that may help set up this clip we're about to show. Anything else you to want to add?

Lauren Matthias [01:35:24] Well, just to follow what Dr. John said, that Chad never, you know, he did struggle feeling that he was getting enough attention and he wanted to feel significant and to tie Julie Rowe together with this. The moment he started publishing Julie Ro books was the moment I think he started to feel significant because those became very popular and he was the publisher.

Guest [01:35:48] Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:49] And then Julie Rowe and her near death experiences, that was what that was. And I think he took a lot of cues from Julie Rowe and all of a sudden he started talking about some near death experiences of his that he had had and he started to get more attention just like Julie Rowe. And I think that all of a sudden Chad Dabel became Chad Daybell and he was finally feeling significant. And I think this speech that we received through a source, we're so grateful for that you're about to play, which is supposedly the day he met Lori Valow, allegedly, according to her friend, you know, we none of us fully know yet in St.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:33] George, Utah. He's, he's speaking in front of hundreds of people at a, preparing a people conference, a prepper conference. And I think this is like the pinnacle of his career. You know, this is the moment probably, this is probably the top moment of his life. Right. If you're gonna like, list your, you know, your glory days, I think that this would be Chad's glory days right before the fall of Chad Daybell too.

John Dehlin [01:36:57] Right.

John Matthias [01:36:58] And let me, let me add quickly that we know from some of our sources that Chad never mentioned near death experiences until after he started publishing Julie Rowe. So these experiences supposedly occurred as early as like, you know, the late 90s. And, but he never talked about them. So there was no talk of those experiences being near death experiences until many, many years later.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:27] I just wanted to draw a quick parallel to that. If we're still talking about foundational Mormonism, where I believe, didn't Joseph Smith not talk about his first vision for a really long time until it became like a useful topic for him to, to

John Dehlin [01:37:48] kind of help his movement? Oh, that's a great Point.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] Yeah. He supposedly had his first vision in 1820, but he never told his. There's no evidence that he told his parents, his brothers, his siblings, neighbors, anyone. The first account of him telling anyone about his alleged first vision experience was 12 years after, in 1832. Yeah, so. So you're saying maybe there's a tradition or a tie to kind of telling stories or even memories developing way later.

Guest [01:38:21] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:21] Or telling a kind of a fantastic or, you know, sensational story when, when you've got some momentum and there's some motivation.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:30] Any good speaker, any good speaker has a good story.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:34] Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:34] And it's even, even to be as charitable as possible, you can believe your own stuff. You can develop. Memories are funny. You can develop memories of, of things that you experienced that you never actually experienced and believe that you experience them. Isn't that, isn't that right, Dr. John? Isn't that the.

John Matthias [01:38:54] Right. Yeah. Those are called false beliefs. We're going to talk about that in our next podcast, actually. But yes, you see that with a lot with, with the idea of alien abductions. And that's, that's a big topic and I don't want to go off on that, but. Right, but absolutely, you can under. The people that are more fantasy prone are more likely to develop false beliefs. And as you said, John, memory is, is not. We tend to think of memory as like a recording. Like it's literal, but it's not. It's reconstructive. So you can actually, if, if you're very fantasy prone, you can actually create false memories fairly easily.

John Matthias [01:39:33] That's kind of the basis of hypnosis. But there has to be some desire to do so. There has to be some motive. It has to be motivated. So you can't. If you're hypnotizing someone, generally speaking, it's not going to work unless the person wants it to work or suggestible or has some motivation to, to endorse or believe in those fantasies that are being presented.

John Dehlin [01:39:55] All right. I love it. Were you gonna say something?

Mindy Caldwell [01:39:58] Oh, I just, I found it so fascinating, Dr. John, when you mentioned in one of the podcasts about the phrase you have to see it to believe it. Do you want to talk about that?

John Matthias [01:40:07] Yeah, that's, that's. So there's a social psychologist by the name of Carl Weich, teaches at Harvard. He has this, this idea that he's researched for many, many years called sense making. And sense making is how we make sense of the world that we, we tend to, we tend to infer meanings based upon Experiences. But what, what Carl Weich says is we don't get evidence, most of us don't get evidence and then evaluate it. We evaluate things through the filters of our beliefs. So he actually, the phrase he uses is the believing is seen. You know, he, he takes the, the typical term seen as believing and, and reverses it and says, no, we've got it all wrong. Sense making is really about filtering things through our beliefs. So his, his phrase, which I love and mentioned in the podcast, is the believing is seen.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] Very good. Okay, so let's go ahead and roll this clip which is Chad Dabel speaking at a Preparing a People Conference, October 2018. This is from Hidden True Crime YouTube channel. And it's also allegedly the day that Chad Daybell and Lori Valow met. But he is describing one of his near death experiences. Now, apparently there's two. Is this the first or the second near death experience that he's describing?

Chad Daybell's Near-Death Experience at Flaming Gorge

Lauren Matthias [01:41:33] Are we talking Flaming Gorge in this one?

John Dehlin [01:41:36] Flaming. Gorgeous.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:37] Flaming Gorge is the first.

Mindy Caldwell [01:41:38] First.

John Dehlin [01:41:39] Okay, so this will just give us a sense for how he adopts the near death experience narrative and how he communicates it to his followers. Is that all right? All right, let's do this. And by the way, I'll just.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:02] It was on mute. It's on mute.

Mindy Caldwell [01:42:03] It's muted.

Guest [01:42:04] Go back.

John Dehlin [01:42:04] I'll just tell listeners that there is, you know, people are having a tiny bit of a hard time hearing the video that we play on YouTube, but there's really nothing we can do about it right now. So I'll just ask people to bear with us. And in post production, at least, for the audio podcast version, we'll try and get the audio levels straightened out. But bear with us, we're doing the best we can. So thanks, everybody.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [01:42:32] I went on a youth activity to Flaming Gorge, Utah in northern Utah, and my friends loved to talk me into doing stupid things. I was the younger priest in the quorum and they knew they could usually goad me into something that I shouldn't do.

Video Clip 2 [01:42:49] And they loved to cliff jump. We didn't dive, but this happened. This certain cliffs had several levels and we slowly worked our way up and finally we got to one that was about 60ft high. This is not me, but this is about where we were at Flaning Gorgeous. I found this photo and they told me to go first. As I stood on the edge of that cliff, I was like, this is a terrible idea.

Video Clip 2 [01:43:17] But you know that I impressed my peers. So I, I took that jump and it just took forever to hit the water. Just 1, 2, 3. I just kind of flailing and when I hit it was like hitting concrete. And I could.

Video Clip 2 [01:43:35] It just felt like I broke my neck. Honestly, that was my first indication. But what really happened is my body went deeper than my spirit. And so I was like 3/4 out of my body. It's like I came out through my head and I looked around and it was like a plane of white light and just an amazing experience. I felt so peaceful and calm and there were little particles of light that attached to my body, like they were just rushing at me. But within a few seconds, my body and spirit went back together. I later learned it wasn't the best fit for 30 years.

Video Clip 2 [01:44:18] I was kind of off. So I went to a chiropractor and he fixed me. And it felt a lot better since then. But a few years later we went on a family vacation to La Jolla, California. This La Jolla cove and in the center of the picture there you can kind of see some black rocks that go out. And my brother and I went out on the very tip of that at low tide. And as the tide started to shift, as we were looking for shells and things, a gigantic wave came and just plastered me.

Video Clip 2 [01:44:54] This is the same cove, a different angle, but that's about what that wave looked like. I was out on a tip and then just looked up and there was this wave right there. They just call it a rogue wave. Comes out of nowhere and smashed me. And I was sure I was going to die. And I was actually right. I did die.

Video Clip 2 [01:45:15] Suddenly I. I got hit by the wave. But then I was just standing up to found myself just upright. I was a spirit. I was in an orange room and. Well, not an orange room, but it was just an orange glow around me. And suddenly I saw my grandpa Keith Davel, who was my father's dad. He was in an army uniform, kind of a symbol of who he was.

Video Clip 2 [01:45:44] And he had with him his grandfather, Finity Davell. And as grandpa Keith talked to me, Finity was watching my body. It was floating around in the water, just kind of bouncing around.

John Dehlin [01:46:03] Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and stop there. We're gonna, we're gonna continue that clip in just a second. But what we were able to hear there are, are both of his near death experiences. And Lauren, anything you want to say about, about that as you, as you hear it again? And then Dr. John.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:19] I've never heard someone get so worked up over a belly flop when I heard it the first time time. But I, I was fascinated to Me, he again, Chad Dabel is very, very literal. And the way he explained his, his spirit, his body went below his spirit, or I, it might have been the other way around that they separated as he went into the water after he jumped from Flaming Gorge was really, I, I noticed that was really fascinating to me that again, it's this sort of, this very specific thing that happened, which can I say, when we jump off tall cliffs or tall diving boards, it does kind of feel like that, right? I mean, that's the feeling. I mean, I would never explain it as it felt like my spirit separated from my body, but I would say, whoa, that's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:47:10] We've got a great comment from John Todd Baker. He writes, or maybe you just jumped 60ft into water and it hurt like hell.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:17] And I doubt he jumped 60ft, let's be honest.

John Dehlin [01:47:20] Yeah. And then we also Other comment, just while we're at it. Josh Beatty writes, the way he describes his body spirit separation reminds me of Dr. Strange. There are these moments in Dr. Strange where like the, the master punches, you know, and the bot and the spirit separates from the body and then floats up and it's a great description. We're making fun of it. But I mean, near death experience sort of tales are not in any way uniquely Mormon. Right. I mean this is, this is something that transcends Mormonism.

Guest [01:47:50] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:51] For sure.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] Anything you want to add, Dr. John or Mindy?

John Matthias [01:47:55] Yeah, I, I just want to say I'm glad he didn't try out for the Olympic diving team, number one. But more importantly, I. This is a really important moment, the Chad Daybell story. This is an extreme, extremely important moment. The near death experience gives him the authority to write his books, or it gives his books more authority, but it gives him the authority to really predict the future and to have his visions accepted as being real. So without the near death experience, there is no Chad Daybell. There is no second, you know, prophecies of the second coming. It, it's a moment that changes everything in the Chad Dabel story because he becomes an authority figure who should be listened to, just as Julie Rowe does with her near death experiences. So these are important moments in their stories, I think.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] And Dr. John, I'm just going to say you just reminded me of a really important connection with Mormonism and Joseph Smith without Joseph Smith first dabbling in treasure digging and claiming to be able to see buried treasure underground, to even know about spirits guarding treasure underground. And just this lore that Joseph Smith had special powers and something that orthodox Mormons don't remember or even are never taught that he had a special stone that gave him special powers. That was what. That was sort of like level one authority or power that Joseph Smith developed that then led to. Directly led to once the jig was up, he had, you know, been put in jail or, you know, been been accused in front of the court of breaking the law.

John Dehlin [01:49:52] And his father in law was. Was basically denying his ability to marry Emma. And he knew that he couldn't keep on as a treasure digger. You know, a secular view of Joseph Smith history is he pivots. Taking those rumors or the reputation of having special power, he pivots that directly to the quote, translation of the Book of Mormon where he literally takes the same stone in the hat that he uses as a treasure digger to claim that he can now read sealed or illegible or unknown ancient languages. He can translate reformed Egyptian into what becomes the Book of Mormon. And again, that pivots into him being making claims in the founding of the Mormon church by 1830 that he's a prophet and a seer and a revelator.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] And guess what? Mormons forget that he also called himself a translator. That's just a really direct line of claiming supernatural gifts to then claim authority that then sets him up to become the prophet and the president of the church. You have to claim special powers to get people to have any reason to think that they should follow you.

Mindy Caldwell [01:51:09] Right, exactly right.

John Matthias [01:51:11] Absolutely. There wouldn't be. Chad would not be giving the speech you just played unless he claimed that authority.

John Dehlin [01:51:19] Yeah. It's essential.

John Matthias [01:51:20] Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:20] And I want to say this too, just for reference, because, you know, I was making fun of his near death experience. I don't want to dismiss anybody else's experience through that. We have talked to people close to the Daybell family. We, we have many sources that we actually aren't even able to talk about. We keep our sources close. Close. But they do believe that Chad got a good, you know, scare, a good fright that they never heard of this before either. That this was something Chad really did just kind of create in his brain later.

Mindy Caldwell [01:51:56] Interesting. I hadn't heard that part of the story.

John Dehlin [01:51:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. That's fascinating. So, so that's. Anything else we want to say about Chad's upbringing before we transition to him becoming an author? I mean, obviously he. Does he go to college, he marries Tammy. Anything we want to say just about his bio before we jump into him becoming an author and a book publisher?

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:22] I have a point really fast.

John Dehlin [01:52:23] Oh, yeah, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:24] So He.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:25] He did.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:25] He does tell a story about. About applying for grad school.

John Dehlin [01:52:32] Oh, yeah, That's a good one.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:33] Yeah. And he. I think this goes back to him just feeling, you know, maybe inadequate or, you know, feeling like he has a higher purpose than the traditional path.

Guest [01:52:43] But he.

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:44] He tells the story of applying for grad school, and he claims that his pen. The pen he was using for the application felt like it was on fire, and he felt like he had a spiritual whispering or prompting that told him, you won't need additional schooling to fulfill your life's mission.

Guest [01:52:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:00] And that's. That's one of the things I love about your podcast. You actually hire an actor to read from Chad's book.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:53:09] So that you kind of feel like you're hearing Chad actually tell that story. What. What do you remember about what episode that is, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [01:53:16] Yeah, I believe that that was episode 11.

John Dehlin [01:53:22] Can you hand me that for a second?

John Matthias [01:53:23] And I just want to.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:23] I want to do episode 11.

John Dehlin [01:53:25] Check out prepared. Mindy Caldwell is. She actually has a binder of notes typed out notes. So, I mean, you guys are professionals, but Mindy's pretty close to a professional. Am I embarrassing you a little bit?

Lauren Matthias [01:53:38] No, that's very impressive. We don't have that. I have screenshots, like, in my photo album. I think. I think that's somewhere from last year. And then that's. That's my research. So well done.

John Matthias [01:53:48] We're such newbies in the podcast arena that we don't have podcast notes, but we're gonna have to get those from you, Mindy.

John Dehlin [01:53:55] You guys need to hire.

John Matthias [01:53:57] You don't have notes yet, but you do, so. Thank you. We're gonna have to pay you.

John Dehlin [01:54:02] Mindy's a super sleuth anytime, so. Okay.

John Matthias [01:54:08] Yeah.

Chad Becomes an Author and Meets Tammy

John Dehlin [01:54:08] Anything else you guys want to say about Chad before he becomes an author and a publisher to Mindy's story?

Lauren Matthias [01:54:13] Oh, go ahead, John.

John Matthias [01:54:14] I just want to say about Mindy's story that, you know, we all. That there. There's also something competitive there. We know that Chad's other siblings all have master's degrees, and I think that threatened him to some degree. I think he. There's. There's a little bit of shame in that story, I think, in the sense that he's finding some rationalization or justification for why he shouldn't go to grad school, but he's also feeling this pressure, this undertone of competition, because his siblings are all very successful and they all have master's degrees. So I think that's. That's Another part of that story.

Mindy Caldwell [01:54:50] Absolutely.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:51] And by siblings, he means brothers. He has three brothers, and they all have master's degrees.

John Dehlin [01:54:56] Yeah, I love it. Okay, so he. Where does he meet Tammy?

Lauren Matthias [01:55:03] He noticed her photo in the Springville yearbook. She was younger. After he had a vision that he was going to marry a blonde, he saw her picture. She was blonde in high school. Her hair darkened. Later, he explained after she gave birth to their children. And so he had a vision of a blonde woman that he was going to marry, saw her picture, and it was. And then. I know after that, there's not much to be said, except that it was a very fast courtship, to use his term. And they were married quickly. I think she was 20, 19 or 20.

John Dehlin [01:55:45] We have a listener asking where Chad is in the birth order. Do you guys know?

Lauren Matthias [01:55:49] Oh, and that's our friend, too, Julie Holden. She helps us moderate our YouTube channel. Hey, Julie, where is Chad in the birth order? He's the oldest. Is he the oldest son?

John Dehlin [01:56:00] It's okay if we don't know.

Lauren Matthias [01:56:01] I don't feel confident. I would have to go back and

John Dehlin [01:56:03] check your episode of. Of True Crime, Real True Hidden True Crime podcast. Thanks for that question, Julie. Sorry, we don't know the answer, but, you know, we can't know everything. We know almost everything about this kid. Okay. And I did. How many kids do you. How many kids did they have?

Lauren Matthias [01:56:21] Five. One girl, four boys.

John Dehlin [01:56:23] So they did the Mormon thing. They got married, you know, young, fat.

Lauren Matthias [01:56:26] Excuse me. Sorry, I was thinking of his family of origin. Let me correct.

Guest [01:56:29] He.

Lauren Matthias [01:56:29] They also have five kids. Chad and Tammy have five children as well. Two girls, three boys. Yes.

John Matthias [01:56:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:56:37] And so. So I don't mean to be disrespectful, but Tammy's popping out the babies and Chad's having to be a provider.

Mindy Caldwell [01:56:45] The kids all do seem to be, you know, fairly close in age.

John Dehlin [01:56:48] Yeah. So lots of kids.

John Matthias [01:56:50] Quickly.

John Dehlin [01:56:51] What do you know about lots of kids?

Mindy Caldwell [01:56:53] I have six children. I know a few things about lots of kids.

Lauren Matthias [01:56:56] So they had children young. There's a story of Garth, the oldest, being born. And Garth was a very difficult child, as Chad explains. Let me put it in preference, you know, in reference, though, that Garth was two. He was two. So he was climbing. He was a toddler. And it was so hard on Chad. He went to the temple and prayed about it and had a vision of his other children and went back and told Tammy. And this is from his blog that's still online. I knew then that we were going to have four more children. I saw them all in vision. And I knew that Garth would one day behave, so I felt better. It was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] So I'll just say, and you guys can tell me if you disagree. One thing that feels very typically Mormon about this story that that can be problematic is Mormons sometimes tend to get married so quickly without really knowing each other well, and just jump right into, like, career and kids. That oftentimes Mormons don't develop in their marriage high levels of connection and emotional intimacy. This goes back to some of the analysis that Dr. John I've heard on the Hidden True Crime, Hidden, A True Crime podcast that you've offered. Dr. John and that often, who knows whether you're really emotionally compatible, sexually compatible?

John Dehlin [01:58:24] Did you, did you get to even get to know other types of people and have lots of experiences so that you can continue into your marriage with the high level of confidence and certainty that this is the person that. That you really want to be with for an entire lifetime of 40, 50, 60 years and eternity? Or eternity.

John Matthias [01:58:42] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:58:43] Don't forget eternity, John.

John Dehlin [01:58:45] Yeah, Beautiful.

Guest [01:58:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] And it's not that Mormons invented the midlife crisis either, but what I've found is this lack of really emotional connection and emotional intimacy and lack of just sometimes basic compatibility and friendship sets Mormons, and often post Mormons up for this kind of. To maybe even experience this midlife crisis in a pronounced way where you're just like, who did I marry? Why did I marry this person? I don't even really know them or love them. I didn't even get to have normative, let's just say college or high school experiences romantically, and it really can set people up to just wonder why they're even in this marriage to begin with. Tell me if you think that Mormon characteristic of rushed early marriages with lots of kids maybe might apply here.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:41] Do you want to take this? Dr. John?

John Dehlin [01:59:44] Why are you smiling, Lauren?

John Matthias [01:59:47] I can't speak from the. From the Mormon angle, but I think I can say that it's similar to what the psychologist Eric Erickson talks about in his developmental stages. It's what he calls identity foreclosure, which is that when you get married so young, you're really kind of shutting down some of your options for your future, and you're really committing to a particular identity, which is something you probably haven't even had a chance to develop. So it reminds me a lot of Erickson, one of Erickson's critical ideas in his psychosexual stages.

John Dehlin [02:00:25] Love it. Love it.

Guest [02:00:27] Very good.

John Dehlin [02:00:28] Lauren, anything you want to add or

Lauren Matthias [02:00:29] Not John's, my second marriage.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] So enough said. All right. Well, you know, I'm just going to admit that Margi and I went through this sort of thing when I lost my faith before, particularly, I'm just like, wow. I had to, I had to figure out whether, you know, we were still a good fit and Margi and I are doing great and we worked through that, but I don't know that we were the best of friends when we first got married. You know, we kind of rushed into it, so. Yep, I relate to that.

Guest [02:00:57] Yep.

Guest [02:00:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:59] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:00] That goes with my empathy to Tammy, too. I think that a lot of people have speculated, well, was she believing him? What's her problem? And I get very protective and defensive over Tammy Dabel, and I think for this very reason. She married very young, she did what she was supposed to do, and she was a good wife and she raised her children, she was a good mother. And I'm sure she knew, like I said, how to dance the dance with Chad. And so I just want to throw that out there, too. I, I, I just think she, she, she could have married someone else, but she married Chad Dabel. And that is a sad part of Tammy's story.

Mindy Caldwell [02:01:40] Thank you for adding that, Lauren. I think that's really important.

John Dehlin [02:01:43] And tell me, Lauren and Minnie specifically, tell me if this is also true, that, that the Mormon story of women not necessarily getting educated, not, not necessarily pursuing a career at first, but just getting married young and jumping into child rearing, it can leave women very vulnerable. Vulnerable in the sense that, you know, the man's in charge. It's a patriarchy, and the man is the ultimate final say in, in a, in a typical orthodox Mormon patriarchal marriage. And what's a woman gonna do? Her, she's got all these kids, she's got a, her job is to raise kids, primarily. And so it can leave a woman very vulnerable to, honestly, whatever the husband may decide he wants to do or pursue, a woman kind of often needs to just go along with her husband. I don't mean it's, it's very much sort of a stereotype. But just tell me if there's anything.

Lauren Matthias [02:02:36] No, I think you said it. Well, I think, I think that, I concur. It's the first time I got married, I was in my 30s and I had a career under my belt and a degree and independence. And so I think that really helped me. But I have questioned, well, if I had gotten married at 19, would it have been different? And I think it likely could have been. And I think that that is something to point out too. You know, about Tammy Daybell. You don't, you don't. You know, normal is what one is accustomed to when you get married at 19. That's sort of how you know life to be. And so you can't really see a different way. Dr. John pointed that out. Well, with the identification, you know, identity.

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:22] But yeah, and I think someone addressed earlier in the comments about women, Mormon women in this story, being drawn to this type of movement too, because I think that they just are, you know, kind of hungering for some authority or, or power or something outside of what they feel is offered to them.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:44] So, yes, yes, I think that a lot of women do find some healing power in energy healing. And like I've said, women did used to do healing blessings. My mom tells a story of blessing me as a baby. I had seizures when I was a baby. They didn't know what to do in New York City. And my mom tells the story of laying her hands on my head along with my dad and feeling a power.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:10] My point in telling that story is that it's been very often and even recently that I think women have felt like they were able to participate in these type of healing blessings and be part of the priesthood. And I think maybe that might be lacking a little bit more today. I'm not totally sure. Again, I was a baby, I don't remember in the 80s, but I think that a lot of women in the LDS Church do find a bit of that healing power in energy healing. You know, they want to heal their families, they want to protect their families, and they can do that through being trained in energy healing and energy work and in so many of these more unique alternative medicine.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:57] And, and I'm, I'm pro alternative medicine, so I may be more like the kind of. I don't know how to say it, I'm at a loss for words. But

John Matthias [02:05:06] John called it Woo. Woo. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a whole other podcast, but okay, so I think it's time now to talk to the next stage, which is Chad becoming an author and a publisher. And we do have a clip of sort of a continuation of Chad's dream that comes from that, from that 2018 preparing a people talk where he talks about how his dream, his near death experience, let's just say by his, by his account, sort of up, by his account foreshadows him becoming an author. Do you guys. Does one of you want to kind of set up this next part of the clip about how you Know he. And any background about how he actually begins to develop a career for himself as an author and as a publisher.

Lauren Matthias [02:06:12] John, anything? I mean, I think you just gave a great.

John Dehlin [02:06:17] Can we just roll the clip and then talk about it?

Lauren Matthias [02:06:19] Yeah, I say roll the clip.

John Dehlin [02:06:21] Okay. All right, we'll roll the clip. This is Chad Dabel again continuing his explanation of a near death experience at the Preparing a People conference in St. George, October 2018. From the hidden A True Crime podcast. Here we go.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [02:06:48] Grandpa Keith started telling me that in the future I would write books based on my children's future. And he showed me like a panorama, flipped through dozens of scenes, like a video, a video wall just showing dozens of scenes of what happened to my children.

Video Clip 3 [02:07:09] And it was a great blessing. I soon returned to my body and kind of coasted to shore. My dad rushed to me and they took me to the hospital and I had to get some stitches and everything. But I bounced back and a few years later I started writing that series. And so that's how the Standing in Holy Places series began.

Video Clip 3 [02:07:35] It follows three families and I kind of combined a couple of the children. But it really is the story of what will occur to my children in a general sense, not every detail, but the main character is named Emma and that's my daughter, my oldest daughter.

Video Clip 3 [02:07:53] And it's just at the time when I wrote it, I'd worked at a publishing company and we'd done a couple of near death books and Deseret book had rejected him and just kind of had some controversy about him. And so I felt inspired that it should be written fictionally and just not tell anybody. But it was based on truth and just put it out there and it sold really well. And so we did a couple follow ups. The great gathering starts right as there's an earthquake in Utah Salt Lake Valley. And you follow some of the families go to the camp, some of them don't.

Video Clip 3 [02:08:33] And you see the outcome of that. And so they gather to the camps. The follow up book talks about when they go to the final battle ends in World War 3 and they go to build a celestial city. This is actually a photo along the Missouri River. It looks like Switzerland or something, but by the end of the book they actually get to Missouri.

Video Clip 3 [02:09:00] The third book talks about building up Zion and the great meeting it, Adam on diamond and. And various other things such as the return of the ten tribes. I felt I was shown a lot of that. I think one of my sons will be involved in that. So I was able to see how they are Brought to New Jerusalem.

Video Clip 3 [02:09:24] The fourth book deals with Jerusalem itself quite a bit, with the two apostles that go to Jerusalem and help protect it, and then just other things that are occurring as Zion grows in America. And the fifth book talks about the second coming and the renewed Earth. And that had a lot of interesting insights. As I wrote those books, that's where I received a lot of my visions, if you want to call it is. As I'm actually typing, it's like they're downloading the scenes into my head.

Video Clip 3 [02:10:00] And so people ask me how much is true. They always say, you ought to do a version where you just yellow highlight the parts that are actually true. But it would be hard to do because even within the same paragraph, there's a lot of truth. And as I progressed, it seemed like the visions increased. And so by the time I got to renew Earth, I felt pretty confident that at least the general major scenes that I was describing are going to occur. And I hope that that series testifies of Christ and that he is in control.

Video Clip 3 [02:10:40] That that part about the second coming and the burning of the earth was a new concept to me. But I believe that the righteous will be resurrected, and then they will join Christ in coming to Earth, and their very glory will be what burns the earth as it transitions to a terrestrial level.

John Dehlin [02:11:04] So we could kind of go on and on there. There is so much in that. And that's just what's so amazing, again, about your. Your podcast and your YouTube channel. You guys have done the hard, investigative, journalistic work of assembling actual video and audio footage of podcasts and of.

John Matthias [02:11:26] Of.

John Dehlin [02:11:26] Of conferences and interviews. And it. There's so much in that. Just that clip.

John Matthias [02:11:31] So. Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:32] Yeah, that was an actual advertisement that Chad Dabel edited or someone in his family edited that we received. And then the. The speech that we received was on somebody's phone. So I did place the ad over that. So. Yes. I mean, I want people to know. Some people said, well, did you. Did he do that? Did you do that? I want to explain. This speech came empty, and I put the visuals on there, and that was an actual advertisement of Chad Daybell's for his books.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] I love it. You know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna play that. There's a longtime listener named John O'Reilly. I'm pretty sure he's from Australia, and he made the comment, this is unfair. They could be from any faith. The church is not up to blame for this. This is unfair. Micro focus on the Mormon Church. And I'm Ex Mormon. Like, I respect that point of view. That's the whole reason we're doing this series on Mormon stories. John O'Reilly is not alone as someone who just thinks there's really no meaningful Mormon connection to this. Although that's predominantly what orthodox believing Mormons have to say.

John Dehlin [02:12:44] And I just can't believe that you could watch that clip of these five books and it's talking about, you know, Revelation and Angels and, and the, and New Jerusalem and Adam on diamond and, and Zion and the Second Coming and the Gathering, how you can see all that and say that, that Mormonism isn't inextricably linked with kind of the senses of this case.

Guest [02:13:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:13] Mindy, what's your quick reaction? Not to show disrespect for John, but.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:17] Well, I just, I feel like, I feel like these case, this case is undeniably so Mormon. I loved how Lauren said.

Guest [02:13:26] Yeah, I'll.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:26] No, I'll say, yeah, you take.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:28] I'm passing the.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:29] Yeah, no, when you. I'm not an ex Mormon. I'm a Mormon. And John is not alone. The, the commenter, John, there's a lot of Johns today that, oh, you know, we don't want to talk about this. This is not lds. When you have in a probable cause statement of somebody's murder that the, the murderers stated it's going to be a Nephi and Laban Laban ending it. It has to do with Mormonism. I mean, you can't separate the two. Did, I mean, did these people take the religion to an extreme? Yeah, absolutely. Is everyone that's LDS going to go do this? No, or else we wouldn't be fascinated in this one case, you know, because it's unique.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:12] I think by addressing the Mormon and LDS elements in it is to make sense of the crime and how this happened, which is what our podcast is about. It's about the hidden motives. The dateline, the basic, the surface motives are sex and money. Right. That's like classic Dateline narrative. We go into the hidden motives and you can't, you can't get into the hidden motives without understanding that this has to do with a belief system and deeply held beliefs and religiosity and that it was an LDS foundation. And that doesn't mean every Mormon is going to do this.

John Matthias [02:14:52] Should I weigh in with a bit of a contrary point of view as.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:57] Sure.

John Matthias [02:14:58] From the non Mormon, somebody could make an argument that the near death experiences and the Book of Revelation is, is really the. Maybe those are the two key elements of this case and neither of those are particularly Mormon. I know when I say that I'm, I'm making a high level argument and I'm not looking at the micro level, as John pointed points out, not John the host, but John the commenter that, so you know, technically I think you could say if you really get, get theoretical and, and kind of go back to the meta level, the near death experience part and the Book of Revelation is arguably the most important pieces of this case that at least the case that leads to the murder of a number of individuals.

John Dehlin [02:16:01] I love it.

Guest [02:16:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:16:03] I mean I, I'm, I'm reminded of a, I'm going to be paraphrasing a quote I once heard. You know, they're always going to be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. But to get good people to do bad things, you need religion. And I, I'm not anti religion at all. But I, I just am going to say like you, like you said, Lauren, that if you're taught, you know, three chapters into the Book of Mormon, Nephi, the, one of the, the protagonists of the entire Book of Mormon, one of the most important Mormon prophets. If not, you know, let's just say one of the three most important Mormon prophets, scripturally for sure.

John Dehlin [02:16:41] When he's hearing voices from God and the voices are telling him to chop the head off of somebody else, you know, that has some meaning and that has relevance. And it's the type of thing that, that has the potential, it sort of almost gives license to people to just believe in the idea that the, the voices in their head could be real or meaningful or divine and that they should act on them and, and that it can even be violent and a violent act can somehow still be sanctioned by God. By God.

Guest [02:17:23] Right.

John Dehlin [02:17:24] I don't think that's. And if you look at like under the Banner of Heaven with John Krakauer and the Lafferty Brothers, you know, the, the Day Nights, the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You know, you can't say that everyone you know in these situations were all psychopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer. At some point you have to say, is it possible that there's a, a set of doctrines and theologies that could lead good people down paths to then start to feel like bad is good, frankly?

Guest [02:18:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:02] And, and murder may be the extreme example.

Mindy Caldwell [02:18:07] Right.

John Dehlin [02:18:07] But in next episode when we start talking about the, the swinging that goes on and the predatory sexual behavior and, and juicy folks, the insurance fraud and you know, the claiming of, of insurance policies after people die and all these, these prophecies of spouses dying ahead of time, all of that. You know, it can't be that everybody was a serial killer torturing insects and, and animals from their childhood. Lots of people are taken down this road, stopping short of murder because of a shared theology and set of doctrines and practices. That's just me. People can disagree with me, but that's

Lauren Matthias [02:18:54] kind of ideology, kind of.

John Dehlin [02:18:57] Yeah, can kind of drive this. So why don't we just tell us like, so that we know that Chad is, is, is authoring these books. Talk to us about the books, how he becomes a publisher and, and that will lead us. And then we'll stop short of talking about how he meets Julie and we'll stop short of the actual prepper movement and the eval movement. But is there anything else we want to say about Chad becoming an author and a publisher that that is important in advancing the story, or did we pretty much cover it?

Chad's Fiction, Book Sales, and Apocalyptic Themes

Lauren Matthias [02:19:32] Well, he, he started off his books when he began them by saying that they're fiction. I think that's important to say. And this was before he started talking about his near death experience books. This is before he knew Julie Rowe. His first books were written before he knew Julie Rowe, before he was giving speeches, before he claimed to have near death experiences and he claimed in them that they were fiction. We haven't, we have an interview from 2007. I believe Dr. John that says that he, he's claiming their fiction. But something does happen and he's, he changes his tune and, and starts to say that they're partially true.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:07] You even see that in his advertisement a bit. He's implying that, but he actually says in that speech you just played that they, they are real. That he's, he's downloading information from beyond the veil from his near death experience and is writing books that are true. And he said that there was some controversy with Deseret book. That's a, you know, a church owned church. I don't know who it's on his Bonneville owned bookstore. And that there's some controversy with his books. And so he said, well, I just kind of like marketed them as fiction, but they're real, they're true. He quotes that. And I think that's important to kind of see the progression there.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:48] He's. These are. And then Dr. John can kind of tell you what he's read in these books. He's read more of them than me.

John Dehlin [02:20:56] Like I was those books thinking, never in a million years would I read one page of any of these books. And yet you Know, we have a, we have a question from a listener. Jim Halpert asks, does anyone know how well his book sold? Apparently the books did pretty well that there was an audience for these books books. Dr. John, do you want to, do you want to take the baton on that one and anything about the substance of the books?

John Matthias [02:21:23] Let me, let me just back up a minute and say that Chad's version of how the book started was based on his near death experiences and he was just recounting those more or less. But it's also, it's interesting to note that he started writing these books in the late 90s. I think his first book was, was published in 98 and again back in 98 there was no evidence that he was talking about near death experiences. Which means that sort of the non Chad version of this is about fame and fortune in the Mormon world. Specifically. We know that Chad wanted to be famous in the

John Matthias [02:21:59] Mormon world and I think a big part of the books, the reason he started writing these books was, was for that motivation, not because he was downloading information from beyond the veil, but simply because he wanted fame, at least within the Mormon world. So those are very different accounts of him being an author and I think it's important to make that distinction.

John Dehlin [02:22:24] Thank you. Mindy, anything you want to add from your observations of that, that video clip on the, on the books.

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:30] And I have to admit that I have not read any of Chad's books,

Lauren Matthias [02:22:38] so they're quite violent. Do you want to talk about the substance a little bit? What you've noticed, you know, they're, they're,

John Matthias [02:22:46] there's, there's a lot of telling and not a lot of showing. So I mean there, you know, one of the, one of the axioms of fiction is, you know, you tell the store, I mean show the story and, and don't tell it and let the readers figure it out. Right. But it's with him I think you get a bunch of telling. So the narratives are a little awkward. You know, there's clearly a narrator that's in control and, and is going to kind of talk about the narrative more than show you the action.

John Matthias [02:23:17] There's a lot of violence and it's, the violence is just kind of matter of factly which is, which is really peculiar. It to me that suggests that there's a lack of empathy. Whoever's writing these books is talking about and showing a great deal of violence, but not with much empathy or concern. And that's interesting too. So aside from that, I mean, you know, the, the actual Content is this post apocalypse, this lead up to the post apocalyptic world and how we get there and then maybe some, some vision of what's going to happen after that. So that, that's what they're about.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] And isn't there an evangelical Christian series called Taken up or something that, that, that is along the lines of this type of genre about the Rapture?

Lauren Matthias [02:24:12] And probably. I don't know about it.

John Dehlin [02:24:14] I know there is, but I, but I'm, I'm not remembering it. Okay, so he publishes these books and you said these books were all before he meets Julie Rowe, is that right?

Lauren Matthias [02:24:23] He, he became an author before he met Julie Rowe. He, it was Suzanne Freeman or Friedman, that Freeman that he wrote that he met and he wrote the first Near Death Experience book with her. She had a near death experience.

John Dehlin [02:24:37] Okay, okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:24:38] But then she, then he met Julie Rowe and things really changed for him when he met Julie Rowe.

John Dehlin [02:24:47] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:24:49] So, I mean, I don't know if Dr. John wants to explain that or not, but her books were incredibly popular and it was, they were near death experience books and it put him and his publishing company on the map. He, he had a lot of success and he experienced a lot of success and recognition.

John Dehlin [02:25:04] Really quickly. Our, our listeners are all jumping in to, to fill in my gaps. The Webers, Tim Rathbone, they all agree it's the Left behind series, which is kind of the Rapture. Yeah, it's kind of fiction, Christian fan fiction about the Rapture. Gail Clark as well. So as always, thanks to our listeners for, for crowdsourcing evidence and information. That's great. Dr. John, were you going to add anything else behind what Lauren was saying?

John Matthias [02:25:36] Yeah, I think that's one of the things we discovered was, was Julie's Julie Rose influence was enormous, not only in terms of Chad seeing the success of her books, but also that we think that that's when he started, you know, adopting this idea that his previous experience were near death experiences. So for many years he didn't talk about it. And now all of a sudden around 2013, 14, he's saying that those were near death experiences. And, and that's a game changer, I think, for him, I'm just going to

John Dehlin [02:26:10] say on Mormon Stories podcast, you know, I've been doing this 16 years. Every single year, sometimes every month, I get somebody saying, John, you really need to cover near death experiences on Mormon Stories podcast. And I've always just not wanted to. And I, I just have to admit I, I feel a tiny bit vindicated by, you know, in that I, I haven't ever covered it because I, you know, on to say it kindly, I haven't always viewed them as really credible or meaningful other than kind of what goes on in the brain. That's going to offend some people and they're not going to like me for saying that.

John Dehlin [02:26:45] But, but to say it a little bit less charitably, I've, I've, I've worried that putting too much stock in or attention around near death experiences as meaningful or credible could be potentially dangerous. And so I feel, you know, that's how I still feel. And now I feel it even more so after, after all this has come about. So really quickly, you bring back Julie Rowe.

John Dehlin [02:27:13] We began by introducing Julie Rowe, Endeavor Snuffer into kind of this equation. Now maybe it's time to transition to one important bridge which is to discuss the Mormon Prepper movement and a vow and preparing a people because that, that becomes kind of the soil for the marriage of, of Chad and Julie. Is that right? And then eventually for Chad and Laurie or, well, Chad and Julie first and then Lori later. And I say marriage, I, I meant that metaphorically. The union, the partnership.

Lauren Matthias [02:27:49] There are a lot of marriages in this story, so you gotta, you never know story.

John Dehlin [02:27:54] I'm like, so give our listeners a little bit. Who, who wants to tell us a bit about Mormon preppers, what a vow is. We, we've talked about it a bit, but anything else we want to say about the Mormon prepper movement or a vow preparing people? Maybe I'll start by playing a little clip that I found and then you guys can follow up and, and fill in the blanks. Is that okay?

Guest [02:28:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:28:17] Okay, so this is a clip that isn't yours, Lauren and, and Dr. John. But, but we thought it's basically Chad promoting one of these preparing a people events, kind of, kind of advertising it or marketing a little bit. So we'll, we'll, we'll jump to that and then we'll come back to you guys.

Guest [02:28:40] Great.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [02:28:46] Welcome everybody to Preparing a People conference announcement.

Video Clip 4 [02:28:50] With Chad Dayville, one of our main

Video Clip 4 [02:28:51] speakers, we are holding the first Rexburg Conference in the Tabernacle up there on Saturday, July 15th. And our theme is uplifting the downtrodden and healing the brokenhearted, which we all can relate to.

Video Clip 4 [02:29:06] Right?

Video Clip 4 [02:29:07] I'm just very honored to be part of the conference. I've recently released my autobiography entitled Living on the Edge of Heaven where I tell more about my two near death experiences and how that prompted me to write my novels. And I will also at the conference talk a Little bit more about my upcoming novel where I talk more about some of the refugees that I've seen coming from the west coast after there's destruction and troubles there and how we will be able to assist them and help them not only physically, but also spiritually and help them in their lives. And I'm eager to share that with you. So we are really excited to have Chad.

Video Clip 4 [02:29:48] He's.

Video Clip 4 [02:29:48] Chad's one of my favorite people. In fact, we. He used to be in Springville and then we followed him to Rexburg. Yeah, but seriously, after this, you can click on and get more information about all the speakers that are going to be at the conference. You can buy tickets on the website. And we're really excited that we think this is going to be a great event and this is going to be a lot of fun. Fun for a lot of people to get together.

Video Clip 4 [02:30:13] It's going to be a little bit

Video Clip 4 [02:30:14] different than some other conferences, but I think everyone will be very happy, very surprised. Chad, thanks for coming. We look forward to having you there. I'm excited to be there.

Video Clip 4 [02:30:24] Thanks.

The Prepper Movement and Preparing a People

John Dehlin [02:30:28] So maybe a little bit different is an understatement, but you know that what is for me one of the key words in. In that little commercial that really gets talked a lot about when you talk about Julie Rowe, this idea of a refugee and this idea of like this apocalyptic vision that Julie Rowe was really into that also became the backbone of a vow and Preparing a people. This idea. Who. Do you guys want to explain what a refugee is and what refugees are doing and what these safe houses are? Can you. Can someone paint the apocalyptic picture of what. What's going on here so that then we can talk about just kind of this. This mental reality that all these people are sharing, this apocalyptic end of times reality that then becomes the backbone for the prepper movement for a vow and preparing a people. Who wants to tackle that?

Lauren Matthias [02:31:26] I can share a bit.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] Unless you refugee.

John Matthias [02:31:28] And what are those?

Lauren Matthias [02:31:29] Well, I was gonna say I'll share a little bit. And I think actually a good person to maybe touch on, on this would be Mindy, too, because I know that she says she's had a personal experience with a family member that's, you know, been in this. I didn't even know really about this strong movement until I started covering this case. But first off, also, I want to point out that they said that they were in Springville. That's Mike and Nancy James that you see there. They're the founders of Preparing a People. They did so many podcasts and gave Chad A platform. Absolutely. And I want to say that because they have since taken down all of their videos and podcasts with Chad and Lori.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:06] But I, you know, preparing to people was big. So I want to point them out, but they said that Chad moved up to Rexburg and then they followed. And one thing I'm also wanting to point out and notice is that Rexburg is supposed to be the central to this and East Idaho to this apocalyptic thing that's going to happen. Even according to Julie Rowe, who was living in Kansas, she was always in East I Idaho. I mean, I think she found her audience there. And, you know, she would fill the tabernacle in rexburg with like 2,000 people sharing her visions of this, you know, the second Coming.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:39] And they discuss the refugees coming. Refugees. You know, refugees are refugees. I don't even. I mean, refugees are supposed to be from other countries. You know, Chad Dabel talks about people coming from California.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:52] California reference.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:53] Yeah, I was gonna say Chad Dabel talks about them coming from California.

John Matthias [02:32:56] Refugees. Yeah. There's never any mention of refugees coming from the east coast. So apparently the east coast just doesn't exist.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:03] Yeah, and there's no refugees coming from like another country either.

John Dehlin [02:33:06] It's.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:07] It's California area that we're talking

John Dehlin [02:33:14] refugee picture. Do you want me to. Because I just heard that one episode where they were talking about Julie Rowe and, and her. The nonprofit she creates for refugees.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:22] Girl on Fire episode.

Mindy Caldwell [02:33:24] Yes, it's the Greater Tomorrow relief refund and A Greater Tomorrow. Yeah. So A Greater Tomorrow is the. Is it the first book that Julie published about her near death that just really put her on the map with the near death experiences? I think it was her first book

John Dehlin [02:33:40] talking about natural disasters and solar flares. Do you want to paint that picture or do you want. I mean, do you want me to.

Mindy Caldwell [02:33:45] You seem pretty jazzed if I want to.

John Dehlin [02:33:46] Okay, I'm going to talk about it.

Mindy Caldwell [02:33:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:48] So I'm listening to that episode that you guys just referenced. And it's like Julie Rowe is like telling everybody, listen, like, there's going to be wars, natural disasters, earthquakes, solar flares. They're going to like shut down all the power grids. There won't be, you know, fuel. You won't be able to drive a car. When she talks about refugees, she's painting this kind of apocalyptic dystopian vision of like, cars no longer working. Even ATVs don't work. And we've got to prepare. We've got to prepare because the, the geopolitical financial infrastructure is going to collapse.

John Dehlin [02:34:31] Nothing's going to work, and everybody's going to, like, be starving and killing each other, and there's going to be mayhem, and there's going to be all these people that are going to need to relocate. And so on foot from the east coast and the west coast, they're going to be walking somehow for some reason to Rexburg of all places.

John Dehlin [02:34:52] And we need to set up safe houses. I know. Am I sounding crazy? We need to set up safe houses along the way with, like, food storage and ammunition and, you know, ATVs with fuel and pilots who can fly people places and medical supplies because it's going to be mayhem. And we want to help the elect. Maybe it's even the 144,000 that need to gather to the Church of the Lamb of God or. I don't even know. I'm making stuff up at this point.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:23] But, like, no, I think it's all accurate.

John Dehlin [02:35:26] We have to set up these way stations for these refugees on foot that are all coming to Rexburg, and we need to create a nonprofit. And by the way, give me lots of money because I, Julie Rowe, this mother who's on psychotropic meds for bipolar. I'm the one anointed, primarily person that's going to set up the infrastructure to allow for these way stations to prepare the people to all come to Rexburg, where we're going to prepare the world for the second coming of Jesus. Am I, am I. Am I making this up? Am I being too sarcastic? Like, this is where it kind of goes off, right?

Mindy Caldwell [02:36:10] I think it's important to note as well, in addition to Julie's, her relief fund and the refugees and the, the safe houses and all that, one of the commenters, Stephen Eliason, asked about the book Visions of Glory, and I think that's an important book to, to highlight. And Stephen asked, I wonder if Chad read that one. I believe Chad's publishing company published the book Visions of Glory, which I know is a very popular book in the. In the prepper community and in the AVOW group. And so that book also talks about the calling out and the tent cities where people will have to flee and go. So it's a. It's a little bit of a similar vibe as, you know, people needing to go somewhere safe and away from, you know, the wickedness that's sure to come and to take over and so similar.

John Dehlin [02:37:07] And, you know, there, there's, you know, this has been a real thing, Mindy, and this is where anything you do or don't want to say about this. This is a real phenomenon in Mormonism in Utah and Idaho and Arizona. This idea of preppers that are spending not just tens of thousands of dollars, but like literally cashing in their life savings. This is where the Latter Day Saints sort of millennialistic strain of Mormonism really comes into bear here, where people are. Do you want to talk about the types of things people are buying? The types of money, the types of investments?

Mindy Caldwell [02:37:44] Goodness.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] So the preppers all over Utah and Idaho and Arizona.

Mindy Caldwell [02:37:49] Yeah. So, you know, I think it starts with most, you know, devout Mormons believing that we, you know, should be prepared

Lauren Matthias [02:37:55] for,

Mindy Caldwell [02:37:57] whether it be natural disasters or financial changes in your family. And I think a lot of, probably most mainstream Mormons would agree that it's good to have some storage, food storage and money and stuff repaired, but this just goes so far beyond.

John Dehlin [02:38:10] Takes it to 11. Takes it to 11.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:12] Yes. It's. Oh, goodness. And Lauren and Dr. John, you can add some things, but tents. And not just, not just regular tents, but like army style, you know, tents.

John Dehlin [02:38:27] MREs, MREs,

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:31] thousands of rounds of ammunition, um, and other weapons to defend yourself. Um, charcoal money and like coins and, and gold and silver and currency.

John Dehlin [02:38:45] Interesting currency.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:46] Yes, those are the things that are coming to my mind.

John Dehlin [02:38:51] But, but people are literally cashing in their 401ks, their life savings.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:38:56] To buy this stuff because they're like, why, why you don't need a retirement?

Mindy Caldwell [02:39:01] Oh, it's not going to matter because the world's, you know, going to end. And I think a lot of this is also tied up into feelings about the government. And I think that this, this movement gained a lot of traction a few years ago during the, like the Obama administration. And I don't want to touch on that too much, but I do think that that was part of it in my experience with, with the, the activity that I witnessed with, in with my family members.

John Dehlin [02:39:30] So, and I, and I just have to say, and we've got a great series on Mormon stories with his historian Matthew Harris about Ezra Todd and the rise of kind of the Republican political right within Mormonism. I just don't think, you know, when we talk about connections, Mormon connections to this whole thing, you just can't deny that the whole Ezra TAF Benson, John Bircher Society, suspicion of government, anti government, New World Order, conspiracy theory sort of mindset, just prepared, primed, groomed and prepared the way for largely less educated, rural, but not exclusively Mormons.

Mindy Caldwell [02:40:18] Yeah, I think that that is the case sometimes, but I don't think that's all. I think we would be surprised by how many Draper maybe more educated, higher socioeconomic level.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] But. But certainly the John Bircher is a type Benson stuff.

Guest [02:40:31] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:40:32] Influences it for sure.

John Dehlin [02:40:33] Creates this fertile ground for. For this kind of prepper stuff too, because it really is an extension of that, of that sort of mindset of sort of distrust of the federal government and, and, and sympathies for conspiracy theories. I don't know. Yeah, that's what I think. Lauren and Dr. John, anything you guys want to add to that? Anything else about preppers and avow and preparing people?

John Matthias [02:41:01] One. One thing I don't want to add quickly is, is that Julie Roll is still talking this talk.

Mindy Caldwell [02:41:08] And that's a good point.

John Matthias [02:41:09] Julie Rowe has just recently.

John Dehlin [02:41:12] Now, you mean in 2021.

John Matthias [02:41:14] I mean now. I mean, like as in the last month, he's talked about the end of the world happening in 2022. Not. We don't have an exact date, but. But fairly soon, probably within the next year or maybe six months. So this is ongoing. This is real. This is an extension of Chad Dable's thought. And, you know, I think this potentially becomes a public safety issue at some level. Maybe. I don't know. But. But it's an interesting. I think it's an interesting situation that, that one of the people that was so influential in this situation or this case that may not have been directly tied to the murders or, or the events that occurred that, you know, the Chad and Lori that thought is still out there and it's still active and it's still being promoted.

Mindy Caldwell [02:42:05] I think it's interesting that. That the church hasn't like, explicitly talked about this. And Lauren, were you saying something where some of the local Rexburg folks were. Had a visit from a general authority and were wishing that it would be addressed? I'm remembering that.

Lauren Matthias [02:42:25] Yeah. Yeah. A couple things. First off, I want to say. Yeah, I'll touch on everything first with what Dr. John said. I think that is our big concern. And I, I feel like that's why Dr. John and I are, are, you know, still working on this so strongly and caring so much about this is we're getting letters from. From people saying, thank you. Thank you for talking about Julie Rowe. My grandmother has spent her entire savings. My, My mother has, you know, done A, B, C and D. And it's real. And I think that for people that don't believe in Julie's gifts, we can laugh at it.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:04] But I, I think that that's an important point Dr. John makes. To reiterate that it's, it's. There are thousands and thousands of people who, who believe in Julie Rose gifts and in her visions. And what this is, and this thought is an extension of, of Chad Daybell. As he points out, the church has come out since so that the church has not explicitly talked about these murders, this crime at all. Multiple murders. They have updated their church handbook to tell people to distance themselves from energy healers.

Mindy Caldwell [02:43:40] That's right.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:41] Who usually want money. So they have made that. Which has actually made then several, I mean, and then on the flip side of that, there are several, I think LDS women who do earn a living, you know, modest living maybe doing that. And they've been trained. And that's actually kind of hurt them too. I mean, I'm not saying here, I'm just sharing what they've. I think that, you know, what they've stated as far as that goes. But I will say this.

Impact on the Rexburg Community and Church Silence

Lauren Matthias [02:44:08] So the town of Rexburg, let's just talk about that. This is where these crimes occurred. And Rexburg residents have been greatly affected. I have a lot of empathy for those living in Rexburg. Rexburg is a tight knit community. It's a small community. It's a, it's a college town. You have BYU, Idaho, that's there. It's like over 90% LDS. That's incredible. You know, there are not many places in the world where it's, you know, that saturated in, in a belief system. So it's, you know, over 90 LDs and this crime, the killing of two children as well as Tammy Daybell's death. So I mean, we haven't even mentioned the victims by name.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:51] Let's do that because this is what this is about. And I, I have my bracelets here. Justice for JJ and Tylee and I have their picture behind me. But Tyler Ryan was 16 years old and JJ was 7. I think that tomorrow would have been Tyler Ryan's 19th birthday, just to put in perspective. And I think that yesterday was the day that JJ was killed in Rexburg and buried in Chad Daybell's yard. So it's a poignant and sad week, you know, for those who miss these children. But they were killed in Rexburg by a member of the LDS church. And it has really shaken Rexburg residents.

Lauren Matthias [02:45:34] And they write us and say that someone writes and say, you know, you don't know who to trust. You don't know who's believing. A vow, you know, before Chad Day, before the bodies were found in Chad Daybell's yard. And I'm. We're really jumping ahead. I hope that's okay, but I'll just lay the foundation here.

John Dehlin [02:45:48] Well, because this. How. How can we not mention the victims? And. And if you're going to talk about Rexburg, this is great. So keep going, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [02:45:55] Thanks. When I'm full spring, full screen, I can't see your verbal. So I don't know. But. So before the bodies were found, you know, once Chad was in the news, there were. There was a lot of division. People would say, there's no way Chad did this. There's no way he was involved in this. Laurie Dabel was newer to the area. She only moved there for Chad. She was from Arizona originally, where her husband Charles was killed.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:21] So separate state, separate crime. But with the two missing children went missing in Rexburg. Tammy Dabel was killed in Rexburg. So these Rexburg residents were actually really divided. You know, Chad is a great guy. I believe Chad. Other people were like, clearly, look at the evidence. No way. He's absolutely. Come on. He's clearly involved.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:43] The AVOW website that you mentioned earlier, Mindy stood by Chad and pretty much had a rule that if you. That if you put Chad down or try to question Chad Daybell, you will be, you know, kicked from the site. There will be no that, you know, talking down about Chad Daybao. And Christopher Parrott is, who runs a vow. He stood by Chad. He said, I've talked to Chad. He made a statement on a vow. I know that this is a custody battle and you guys, the truth will come out. The media is wrong. So again, that whole, you know, fear of, you know, the media and evidence and so this town of Rexburg was really shaken.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:28] I hope I've laid the foundation for people to understand that this is a religious crime. This is a man that was trusted in the community. This is someone with a shared belief of everyone else there. This town does not see crimes like this. They don't see murders, let alone the murder of two children.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:44] You know, the way Tyler Ryan's body was found was. Was. It was heinous. It was brutal. And so the church has never mentioned this murder, this crime. I'm. I've been in pr. I've been in, you know, in the news. I've. I've worked with the church's PR department with my job a lot.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:11] I get that a pr, you know, you know, expert would probably say, just. Just leave this one alone. You know, but to those in Rexburg, I think it was different. And they. This, you know, when something happens in a college or in A high school, that's really traumatic. And you bring in counselors and you bring in mental health experts. I think that's what Rexburg was kind of needing, if that makes sense to anyone. They needed help. They were in a crisis. And I'm allowed to tell this story for the first time. But.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:50] So Heather Daybell has become my good friend through this case. Heather Daybell is Chad Daybell sister in law and her and his name. And they were in the same ward even. So Heather Daybell is married into the Daybell family. And Dieter Uchtdorf was coming into town, Rexburg, shortly after this crime was, you know, committed and all over the news and Heather Daybell thought, finally, like, finally the church is going to talk about this. This is my favorite apostle and he's coming to Rexburg. I know that this is going to be about, you know, the murders of JJ and Tyler and Tammy, like, thank you. And she showed up and she was ready to have an apostle of her church talk about this crime and this crisis.

Lauren Matthias [02:49:44] She said it was her crisis and it was also a community crisis. And she was so disheartened when all he did was mention missionary work and he didn't even mention anything that was going on. And, you know, take what you want from this story, I'm relaying it.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:03] But I feel really heartbroken for the people in Rexburg that this has affected. And I feel really heartbroken for JJ and Tylee and that there. The church has never mentioned their names specifically Tyler. And I want to say this too, and I'll say how I feel, I guess, because it's affected me. You know, Tyler was 16, her Facebook still there. Her background photo is a temple.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:40] She loved the church. She was very dedicated to her faith in her church. And she loved her mother too. You know, she loved her mother and clearly her mother, who was Lori Daybell. Thank you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:50:59] Heather.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:01] Loved, you know, clearly Lori Daybell was her mother and she failed Tyler miserably in the worst way.

Guest [02:51:10] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:10] I mean, that's, you know, Tyler was killed. And I thought, you know, who, you know, the children were missing for a very long time before their bodies were discovered in Chad's yard. Who was going to stand up for this, this girl, this little girl, she was 16.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:27] And, you know, I, I had hoped myself that the church would have stood up and said, help us find, you know, this daughter of God, Tyler Ryan, you know, help us find her. Or let's talk about her, let's mention her name. You know, when your family fails you, you know, the church should Be there. And I feel like I, I try to take a step back and say, from a PR perspective, okay, I get it. Don't mention this crime. You don't want to be involved in it. But from a matter of protecting your own and loving your own, and who was going to stand up for Tylee?

Lauren Matthias [02:52:05] I felt that the church should have said something and I felt and still feel that the church should have at least wrapped their arms around the city of Rexburg and help them through this crisis. It's a continuing crisis. This has affected everyone in that town.

Guest [02:52:23] Wow.

Mindy Caldwell [02:52:24] Well said, Lauren.

John Dehlin [02:52:25] So beautiful, so powerful. And John, Dr. John, I just want to say that that kind of, I mean, I think this is a natural place to kind of end today's episode and, and maybe to give a, a foreshadowing of, of part two. But, but John, we kind of started as we're, as we're sketching out the. The upbringing of Chad and the biography of Chad, this idea that far too often in, in some or many Mormon families, you just don't go there. You just don't talk about the elephant in the room.

John Dehlin [02:53:02] And what a powerful way to kind of bring this episode towards closure. Warren, for you to share that story where Heck, one of the members of the First Presidency. I'm not sure if Uchtdorf was in the First Presidency or not at the time he spoke, but Uchtdorf has served in the First Presidency of the church, which is basically, he was the number number two guy in Mormonism for many, many years before. Before he was removed. What an opportunity he had to address this and provide pastoral healing and care.

John Matthias [02:53:38] And.

John Dehlin [02:53:38] But, but he did what many would say is the typical Mormon thing to do, which is to act like nothing has ever happened and metaphorically, at the funeral, to give the plan of salvation talk. You know what I'm saying?

Guest [02:53:50] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:51] Yeah. I want to show this because you're right, we didn't mention, we didn't even mention these two until the end of this podcast. But yesterday, so two years ago yesterday, JJ was murdered. He. I believe he was buried today in chat two years ago today in Chad's yard. Ty's 19th birthday is tomorrow. You know, and, and that this is what this is about. Yes. Adults were murdered too, but, you know, these two children had no one because their mother was responsible. And you know, I wish. Yeah. That the church would say their names.

Guest [02:54:31] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:54:34] Thank you, Lauren.

John Dehlin [02:54:34] It's beautiful.

John Matthias [02:54:36] And, and maybe this goes back to one of the tenets of Mormonism. You discussed earlier that the, you said it might have been somewhat controversial, but the idea of favoring, favoring religion over family and, and I don't know that that's accurate, but that, that was one of the things you listed, John, so I just wanted to reiterate that. But, you know, to, to get back to what you were saying, John, that the, and the healthiest families. So one of the things we like to do in our podcast is, you know, we talk about the criminal mind and the worst of the worst in human beings.

John Matthias [02:55:24] But we also like to ask what ifs, you know, what would health, what would mental health look like? What would healthy people do here? And as you say, you know, the elephant in the room is, is ignored, it's avoided. And, and in the healthiest families, the elephant room in the room is addressed and it's, it's talked about and it's. Everything is on the table in the healthiest families. Communication is very open. Emotions are not suppressed. And so, and so I think that's an interesting observation.

John Dehlin [02:56:01] Love it.

Guest [02:56:01] Very good.

John Dehlin [02:56:04] Yeah. And just to circle back next week, we're going to start off by talking about how kind of the combination of Prepare People avow and the prepper movement, plus Julie Rowe plus Chad Daybell provides,

Mindy Caldwell [02:56:23] really talked much about Lori provide then

John Dehlin [02:56:26] provides the, the critical mass for Lori to enter the picture. And I just would say it's my belief that for this all to end in something as severe as murder, because all my opinion is, is not that Chad was just necessarily a born murderer or that Lori was a born murderer. There needs to be, in my view, with, with this particular situation, a cultural context that raises the stakes to the level where something this severe would happen.

John Dehlin [02:56:59] And so for me, adding thousands of followers, the Rexburg Tabernacle being overflowing conferences in multiple states, including Utah, St. George, including Arizona, you know, thousands and tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake. Competition for bookselling, competition for workshops, schisms within the community and reputations at stake. And again, what we're going to be talking about next week, sexual impropriety.

John Dehlin [02:57:36] You know, but, but you need that critical mass of kind of a home base of thousands and thousands of people caring and engaging and volunteering and supporting this. You need all that to lead to the cultural context that, that elevates the stakes that, that takes it to, to where someone like Chad or Lori would, would consider performing these murders. And, and just to close it. That's kind of what Rexburg, I think, was and, and maybe still is. It's this critical mass of thousands of people Willing to donate time and money and their reputations and their belief and even get excommunicated for these, these doctrines and theologies and leaders and new prophets and teachings that, that are emerging. Is that fair to say?

Lauren Matthias [02:58:30] Yes.

Guest [02:58:30] Yes.

John Matthias [02:58:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:58:33] Yeah. Well, I think we've, I think we've kind of. I think we kind of did what we hope to do and we're about three hours in, which is kind of what we envisioned until tomorrow. Part one.

Guest [02:58:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:47] And I don't know whether we're doing this tomorrow. We can talk afterwards about whether we do this tomorrow or next week or when. But yeah, we still have to cover. We have to cover Chad and. Chad and Julie teaming up and then we're going to talk about Chad's development of what we're calling third tier theology. Who is it?

Mindy Caldwell [02:59:13] Eric. Eric Smith.

John Dehlin [02:59:14] Eric Smith helps introduce that term. Then we'll talk about Lori Valo's background. We'll talk about Chad and Lori meeting. We'll talk about the emergence of polygamy or celestial spiritual wifery or swinging, whatever you want to call it. A little bit. I got to get the sex in there somewhere.

Guest [02:59:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:32] And then we'll end with talking about the crimes.

Mindy Caldwell [02:59:34] And I think part of the three tier talks is where we are introduced to the multiple probations, which is a huge component.

John Dehlin [02:59:43] Absolutely. Yeah. The zombies.

Mindy Caldwell [02:59:46] The zombies and the dark. Dark and light spirits and all that.

John Dehlin [02:59:49] But we're hoping that our listeners and viewers. Well, number one, Lauren and Dr. John, I hope that we are doing honor to your amazing work by attempting to spotlight your amazing work and just give a brief summary of the amazing, groundbreaking, in depth journalistic and analytical work that you guys have done. So I, I hope you guys feel respected and honored by today in these three hours.

Lauren Matthias [03:00:16] Absolutely. We are absolutely honored.

John Matthias [03:00:19] Thank you. We, we abs. I do. We absolutely do. And I still want a copy of Mindy's notebook, so.

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:29] Coming, Dr. John. You got it.

John Matthias [03:00:31] Okay. If there's, if there's something, if there's a real takeaway here, I think it's that notebook.

John Dehlin [03:00:39] It's that Mindy is going to be the third co host. Right? Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:45] I cannot recommend your work enough, especially for those who, who, who are not only fascinated with this case, but I think you guys provide such a unique viewpoint with Lauren's Mormonism and journalistic finesse. You're just an amazing journalist, Lauren. And then, Dr. Your, your wealth of knowledge is just so valuable. You guys are a really incredible team. So I'm so glad you came on today.

John Dehlin [03:01:15] How do people follow how do People find your YouTube channel, find your podcast, and, and how can people support your work? Maybe let's end there.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:24] Thank you for asking that. So our podcast is Hidden A True Crime Podcast. You can find that on any platform where there are podcasts. You know, if you listen on Apple or Spotify or Google or On and on or Stitcher. So Hidden A True Crime Podcast. And then our YouTube channel that we started after the podcast is Hidden True Crime. That's our channel where we have a lot of interviews. We're working on another podcast right now and to add all of the interviews to our podcast. Again, as Dr. John points out, we're new to the podcasting world, so not everything is on both platforms. So definitely check them both out.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:57] We, we have not gotten everything together in, in one place. So separate, separate areas and then we have. For support. Thank you. We have a Patreon account, Hidden True Crime Patreon, where we do some additional bonus episodes with talking about some other crimes as well and some psychological elements to those crimes. And then what else, Dr. John? What am I missing?

John Matthias [03:02:27] And we're working on a website that should be up shortly that'll feature most of our work or all of our work. And it's taking some time, but we're excited about it and that'll be that. That can be found at some point in the next month at hidden true crime.com.

John Dehlin [03:02:44] hidden true crime.com will be the website.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:47] And we, like I said, you know, it's all, it's just been the two of us so far doing this and so things have been slow, slower than we had wanted. But we are finally getting the support that we needed to, to put other work aside and we are really excited and we are really, you know, hoping to continue to help in this case as well as others.

John Matthias [03:03:10] We, we really have a staff of one, which is Lauren. Because I've been, I've been preoccupied with a federal case and a murder. I've been involved in some pretty high level cases in the last three or four months and it's taken a lot of time. So I'm doing my best to, to stay involved in everything and I hope that once we finish those that I'll have a lot more time to join my other staff member as she does her interviews and, and does an amazing job with our YouTube channel. But we're, we're getting closer all the time and we're really excited about what we're going to do in the future.

Lauren Matthias [03:03:49] Oh, and, and you know, Dr. John, we did just so we Have a, a show most Friday nights called TGIF where I have a guest and then Dr. John does a show on Wednesdays. And so last night we did something for domestic abuse survivors in memory of Gabby Petito. And so we are doing some live shows as well.

John Matthias [03:04:11] My show is called the Hidden Hour. It's, it's like 6, 6pm Pacific time

John Dehlin [03:04:16] every Wednesday on your YouTube channel and

Mindy Caldwell [03:04:19] the TGIFs with Lori Helis. Lori Helis, she's an attorney. She's not practicing.

Lauren Matthias [03:04:29] She's a retired defense attorney. She lives in Arizona now and she's writing a book on the Daybell case. And the two of us are teaming together tomorrow night to. There's been some hearings. Some. Chad Dabel's had some hearings this week and she's gonna catch us all up tomorrow night, 7:00pm Pacific.

Mindy Caldwell [03:04:44] Yes. Are fascinating to kind of deep dive into the legal aspects which I have found really fascinating as well. Yes.

Lauren Matthias [03:04:53] We've got the attorney, the journalist and the psychologist. Just.

Guest [03:04:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:57] And. And links to all of these assets will be in the show notes@mormonstories.org and on the YouTube channel for anyone who wants just a quick and easy link. So please support these guys with your subscribes, with your follows, with your likes, with your forwards of links and with Patreon donations because this, this stuff ain't cheap. People deserve to be compensated for their amazing work.

Lauren Matthias [03:05:23] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:05:23] Let's. Let's make this podcast. Let's send this podcast to the moon in all the good ways.

Lauren Matthias [03:05:29] Thank you.

Mindy Caldwell [03:05:31] Thank you, John.

John Matthias [03:05:31] Mindy.

Lauren Matthias [03:05:32] Yeah. Thank you, Mindy.

John Dehlin [03:05:33] All right, Lauren and Dr. John. So we'll have you guys back at least for one more part.

John Matthias [03:05:37] 2.

John Dehlin [03:05:37] Is that all right?

Lauren Matthias [03:05:38] Yep, yep. At least.

John Matthias [03:05:40] Yeah, we're looking forward to it.

Mindy Caldwell [03:05:42] Wonderful.

John Dehlin [03:05:42] And Mindy, you know, we, we listeners are loving listeners and viewers are loving. Cara Burrell. I know you love Carol's contribution contributions and you're kind of a badass co host if I can swear.

Mindy Caldwell [03:05:57] My nerves out a little bit, but yeah. Thank you, John.

Guest [03:06:00] It's been fun. It's so fun.

John Dehlin [03:06:01] Let me fist bump you. It's so fun to have you here and your wisdom and in depth knowledge is so great. You're just lovely. And shout out to Steve and Shannon Caldwell Montez. And we're just grateful. We're grateful of the Caldwell family taking over Mormon Story podcast. So just let me know. I. Maybe I just won't come. Maybe I just won't come. The next episode, you and Kara, you just take over.

Guest [03:06:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:06:29] It's a Deal. No, but thanks, Mindy. You're awesome.

Guest [03:06:31] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [03:06:31] All right, we'll see you.

Mindy Caldwell [03:06:32] Honored to be here.

Lauren Matthias [03:06:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:06:33] And listeners, please email us and. Oh, there's a. There's a message here. Ellen. It's not even Steve. Ellen is saying Mindy is a fantastic addition.

Guest [03:06:43] So Steve is.

John Dehlin [03:06:46] Steve and I aren't your only fans.

Mindy Caldwell [03:06:48] Good to know.

John Dehlin [03:06:50] No, but. But listeners, thanks for joining us. And viewers, we loved your live comments. They made things so much better. Please email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com with your feedback. Please send us your feedback@mormonstories.org for this post. We love your comments on YouTube and on Facebook and we're just grateful for all the people that support Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation with your donations. If you value this type of programming, let us know. Give us your feedback if you want us to help fix things. Sorry for the audio visual glitches. We'll keep trying to work those things out. Thanks for your patience. We are staff, sometimes of one or two as well, but we'll keep getting it better.

John Dehlin [03:07:31] But if you love this programming and you want to see continue, feel free to go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor and your donations are taxed deductible. In the US we're transparent in our finances and we will keep creating this content for as long as people want to support it. So thanks everybody. You guys take care. Be good to each other. Thank you to the families of the the Vallows and the Day Bells and all the families, Tyler and JJ. Tyler and JJ.

Lauren Matthias [03:08:00] And the Woodcocks, who are JJ's grandparents.

Guest [03:08:03] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [03:08:04] Hard work. Hard week for them.

Guest [03:08:06] Our.

John Dehlin [03:08:07] Our love and heartfelt condolences and support goes out to all of them.

Mindy Caldwell [03:08:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:08:13] Thanks, everybody.

Guest [03:08:14] Take care.

John Dehlin [03:08:14] See you next time on Mormon Stories podcast. Bye, everybody.

Part Two Begins: Recap and Victim Acknowledgment

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1488

Lauren Matthias [00:00:00] It.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is October 1, 2021 and I am so thrilled to be joined in my studio again just like last week by my dear friend Mindy Caldwell. Hey Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:54] Hi John.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Welcome back.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:56] Thank you. Glad to be back.

John Dehlin [00:00:57] So good to have you.

Mindy Caldwell [00:00:58] Thank you. So fun to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] For those of you who weren't able to join us last week, we did a full hour. Oh no. Three hours on the Mormon influence on Chad and Laurie Daybell. Again, for those of you who, who haven't been following this story in the news, there is a whole very significant global news story about the murder of several people, several adults and children that will be providing a quick overview about today. But it involves two, two important suspects, Chad Dabel and Lori Valo, both of whom were active and believing members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the Mormon Church. And the whole purpose of this two or potentially three part series is to address the question of whether or not there were were these just murders that would have happened anywhere under any cultural or religious context or is it possible that beliefs and, or doctrines and, or practices and or cultural dynamics within the, the, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints of the Mormon Church were important factors in the events that lead up to these murders?

John Dehlin [00:02:21] And we are doing part two of, of of this series today and we are so thrilled to have with us Dr. John and Lauren from Hidden A True Crime Podcast. They are joining us again. They're back and they have an amazing YouTube channel and they're really deep into this story and we're just so thrilled to have them back to help tell the rest of the story. Lauren, why don't we begin with you. Welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast, Lauren. And why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself again for those who are joining us for the first time.

Lauren Matthias [00:03:00] Thank you, John. Yeah, My name is Lauren as you said, and I used to be a TV reporter for 10 years I worked with ABC, NBC and Fox, local affiliates in Salt Lake City and East Idaho and Boise. So that's my work experience. And the journalist in me just couldn't leave. And so once I retired when my son was a year old, we started a podcast where I can continue being a journalist. And I have delved into this case fully for the past Since December of 2019, I have been invested.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Yeah. Tell us about Your podcast, your YouTube channel podcast really quick.

Lauren Matthias [00:03:43] Our podcast is Hidden A True Crime Podcast. It's on all platforms. And our YouTube channel is hidden True Crime. We started the podcast because I'll let my. My co host and husband introduce himself, but Dr. John is a forensic psychologist, and we wanted to understand the why. And we wanted to understand the why because I kept asking the why to my husband, to John, I kept saying why? How? Delve into the hidden motives. So hidden is the hidden motives, not just sex, love, money, not the Dateline motives, but the actual hidden motives of how two people could then do something so horrendous and create such havoc. And that is what our podcast tackles.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] I love it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:04:30] Great.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Welcome back, Lauren. It's great to have you and Dr. John tell us a bit about your awesome background and. And why you care about this case.

John Matthias [00:04:41] So My name is Dr. John Matthias. I am a clinical and forensic psychologist. I've been doing forensic work for over 20 years now. I've done hundreds of forensic evaluations over the years assessing sex offenders and violence and murders, and more recently, I've been doing a lot of expert witness work.

John Matthias [00:05:01] But why did. Why were we interested in this case? I mean, I think this case had so many elements and so many variables that, that, that were really challenging and that people were. Were very confused by. And so I think we. We thought maybe we could illuminate some of the pieces of the puzzle and, and help make sense of it. And, you know, I feel like all of my training kind of led me to this point. Right. This is like the Mount Everest of forensic work. So it. It was a challenge for me and, and, and Lauren, I think, and we, we wanted to take it on, and with the.

John Matthias [00:05:38] With the quarantine during the pandemic, we actually had the time. So we've. We talked about a podcast for many years, but we never actually did it because we were so busy with other projects and, you know, prisons and jails shut down in the spring of 2020 because of the pandemic. So I. I literally didn't have work for months, and we finally had this window to. To do this podcast. So, so we were really thrilled to take it on. And, you know, I. I joked with Lauren, I said, you know, if. If. If my mom listens and we have one listener, I'll be content.

John Matthias [00:06:17] But we. We've grown beyond that, and we're grateful for that, and we're very. I'm very humbled by this whole experience, and we're very happy to be here with you, John and Mindy, thank you for having us.

Lauren Matthias [00:06:28] One thing I want to mention too, really quickly is through the process. We've gotten to know a lot of the victims, the victims who are still alive. And it's become really personal to us now. It's something that started us wanting to understand the whys, and now it's something that we're really passionate about. We are friends with the victims, we talk to the victims, and we care. And we hope that we can bring awareness of this and stop something, you know, like this from ever happening again. Because we both acknowledge that this could happen again.

John Matthias [00:07:02] There's still elements of, of these groups that continue to this day, and we're obviously concerned about that. But yeah, it did become. Thanks for mentioning that, Lauren. It did become very personal. We never anticipated that have brought enough appeal so that the. Some of the major players and families would, would contact us and reach out to us and want to provide information and be a part of it. So we're really. We were really a little bit surprised by that and grateful, too. So it allowed us to really get, you know, to do a deep dive into this case and get some really outstanding information that many other people were not getting.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] We thank you. Thank you both. And Mindy, maybe if you don't mind, it's such a treat to have you here. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself just really quickly again for those who are joining us for the first time.

Mindy Caldwell [00:07:57] Sure. My name is Mindy Caldwell. I am a good friend of John and Margi. And at some point I mentioned to John how interested I was in this case. Not only because I just find, you know, true crime fascinating, but because this case is, you know, unique and has, has obviously the Mormon element. And I also have, I have a little bit of a family history of family members who were very involved in this kind of end, end times prepper movement to the tune of, you know, investing a lot of. A lot of money and causing some strain and some relationships over this involvement. And so this case has been interesting for me in that way.

Mindy Caldwell [00:08:42] And also I'm a mom and I have several children, and I've just felt so tender, you know, about this case and about those, about JJ and Tylee and, and all of the victims, Tammy and Charles and, and it's just, it's been such an interesting and sad and fascinating case, and I just haven't been able to look away. So here I am.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] And of course, we talked about the Caldwell takeover of Mormon Stories podcast. Your husband Steve came on Mormon Stories a few weeks ago to talk about the vaccine.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:15] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] And Shannon Caldwell Montez is Steve's sister. And of course she did that incredible

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:22] series on which we shared, which we shared with John. We're like, you have to read this.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:28] Not so much that she's our sister in law because it's really good. It's, there's, it's important. So I'm glad that.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] Welcome and it's great.

Mindy Caldwell [00:09:37] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Really quickly, I, I think we ended last episode by talking about, by naming the, the victims, the actual murder victims. Why don't we start by naming them just so that we, and we'll come back and we'll end by talking about them as well. But should we just name the, the

Lauren Matthias [00:09:56] victim when she was murdered and JJ was just 7 years old when he was murdered. And they were brother and sister. They were Lori Valo Debel's children. In addition to these two lives lost, Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy Daybell, his was died in October shortly after the children died. And Chad Daybell has been charged in her murder. And then Charles Vallow who lived in Arizona, so separate state. That was Lori's husband before Chad and he was shot multiple times in a so and so self defense. But recently Lori Vallow has been charged in his murder as well. So that's just the beginning. And then there are questions of other people.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] Chad's. Chad's. Did you mention Chad's wife Tammy?

Lauren Matthias [00:10:53] Chad's wife Tammy? Yes, mentioned her and he's been charged in her murder.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] Okay. All right. All right. Well, it's, it's always tricky to, it's always tricky to follow these crimes because they're so fascinating. But you, but you don't want to get all giddy and about the joy of the fact that actually people have been killed.

Lauren Matthias [00:11:16] And it's real. Right. Real lives and real victims. Right, Absolutely. And we have our bracelets on today too. Justice for JJ and Tylee. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] So really quickly, thank you. Thank you, Lauren. All right, so just to just do like a 30 second recap last, last week we talked about what we felt are the Christian foundations for everything that's happened, including a belief in God and Jesus and the second coming and, and the 144,000 and a belief in spirits and souls and devils and demonic possession, prayer, heaven prophets, spiritual gifts. All of this is Christian doctrine that under underlies this case. And of course we talked about various Mormon beliefs that, that heavily belie this case as well, including an emphasis on personal revelation, an extra emphasis on the second coming, the prepper movement that that was rooted in food storage.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] There are even scriptures in Mormonism about one mighty and strong or a Davidic servant that will come, come back and usher in Jesus's return right before the second Coming. The Mormon plan of salvation that teaches about past lives and future lives. We'll be talking about that today as well as this notion of the veil or the veil of forgetfulness. Where we were, a veil was put up to help us forget our, our past life or to keep us from seeing into the future lives.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] Spiritual gifts, even the use of like magic relics, like stone, Joseph Smith's use of a stone in a hat to, you know, translate the Book of Mormon. And then of course we have, you know, blessings and healings and special spiritual powers and even women who feel like they maybe have lost their spiritual powers. And then of course, just a really important de. Emphasis on, on science and evidence and critical thinking skills, heavy sexual shame.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] The teachings of polygamy and polyandry, which are going to weigh into today's episode that come from Joseph Smith himself, along with the teachings of celestial ceilings and eternal marriage, becoming gods and goddesses, all of that is very Mormon. Along with the strong conservative Republican Mormon culture in Eastern, in rural Utah and Idaho and specifically eastern Idaho. We, we talked last week about Denver snuffer, near death experiences and Julie Rowe. I called it neomormon fundamentalism. It's not quite Warren Jeff's Mormon fundamentalism, but there's a emerging Internet based neo Mormon fundamentalism that is rooted in prophecies and near death experiences. And just as you mentioned, Mindy, kind of this, this sense for more orthodox Mormons that they're just getting milk all the time, they're not getting enough spiritual meat and that they need more spiritual sustenance which makes them become seekers.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] We talked about, we also talked about, let's see, so many video clips we, we showed, but we talked about Julie Rowe, we talked about Chad Daybell, we talked about him becoming an author and going into book publishing. And then we talked about the prepper movement and a vow and the preparing of people. So that's kind of a, a of what we talked about. We really do recommend that you guys go back and watch that.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] And what we're going to begin with today is a disclaimer. And maybe Dr. John, you might feel comfortable providing a quick disclaimer before we jump in.

John Matthias [00:15:04] Yeah. Thank you. So I think it's important to say we didn't really say it last episode strongly enough, but that it's, it's important to remember that the Chad and Lori are innocent until proven guilty. So this case has not been adjudicated sometimes I think, you know, because the evidence is overwhelming, we make a lot of assumptions. But, but Chad and Lori both will have their day in court and the case eventually will be adjudicated and tried. And so as strong as our opinions may be, the fact is that at the moment that they're, they're innocent until proven guilty. And I think it's important to keep that in mind.

John Matthias [00:15:46] And with that in mind, I think there's another disclaimer which is that this is speculative. You know, so we're developing theories of the case, or at least I am. And, and I want to say it's, it's very educational. It's more educational than otherwise. I think then, you know, we're, we're, we're trying to provide information. We're not trying to make judgments, we're not trying to prejudge the situation. But we're looking at the evidence and certainly we're making assumptions. But, but we're speculating and we're hoping to educate people.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] I love it.

Mindy Caldwell [00:16:28] Very good.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Okay, well, I think the first place to begin today's episode, and by the way, if you guys are viewers or listeners, sometimes people love the introductions and the, you know, the beginning parts. And some people just want to skip to either just getting into the meat of things or just jump to different parts of the episode. I want to make sure people understand that if you consume our podcast on YouTube, what we try and always do within a day or two of releasing the episode is provide time code stamps where you can literally, if you want to just skip all that intro and jump to part one, you can click on the time code that jumps you there and you can actually read the different parts that we ended up discussing on the, the video and jump to the parts you want to jump to.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] And, and you know, if you're a podcast listener, you can always buy YouTube Premium, which I think is like 10 bucks a month, that takes out all the ads and it makes it so you can listen on YouTube and even have your screen turned off. And I think that's the way I consume a lot of content these days.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] So I just, I just wanted to kind of make people aware that both the time codes are available to jump to where they want to go and that that consuming podcasts through YouTube, even if you just listen in audio, YouTube is becoming a great way to consume. But we also want to make this friendly to our audio only listeners because that's the bulk of our audience. Okay, so let's begin. We, we introduced Chad And Julie and I think the next step is to talk about Chad hooking up with Julie and Chad becoming her publisher. And we've got a couple videos queued. But. But Lauren and Dr. John, where should we begin the story?

Chad and Julie Rowe's Collaboration and Influence

Lauren Matthias [00:18:14] I think that this is important. I think that when Chad and Julie connected, it was. It was huge. We even received an email just last week that said that once Chad became Julie Rose publisher, he was able to take all his children to a restaurant for the first time, you know, or they were excited about being able to go to a restaurant. Someone wrote us, who knows the Day Bells and a lot of the other players, and she said that was something the children were thrilled about. So Julie made a big difference in Chad's financial life as. As well as some other things that will learn about Dr. John. You want to say anything?

John Matthias [00:18:58] Yeah. You know, I think this is a pivotal moment and the more we learn about this case, the more important Julie Rose influence is, I think in the sense that she really paved the way for Chad to begin kind of reinventing his past in terms of the near death experiences. He really hadn't talked about near death experiences until after Julie Rowe. So he saw how successful she was with the book on near death experiences. He saw the importance of that. He saw the authority it provided to her. And I think he sort of engaged in some revisionist history that allowed him to then claim some of these past incidents were near death experiences.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] One of the things I love about your YouTube channel, Hidden A True Crime Podcast, and your podcast is that you mentioned, and I think we talked about this last week, mentioned Chad's longtime career as a great, literally a grave digger, where he was digging graves and burying dead bodies. Clearly that's relevant, at least for two reasons. One is this very close direct association with death over a long period of time and dealing with bodies, but also just shows how poor and sort of un. Unremarkable maybe his life had turned out to be. Which then when the money and the fame starts coming, certainly he doesn't want to let that go. Is that Dr. John? What do you think about that?

John Matthias [00:20:23] Yeah, those are. Thank you for summarizing it. Those are great insights. And I would take it a step further and say there's a theory that's in social psychology called terror management theory, which we talk about on the podcast. But the basic idea is that death anxiety drives us to more extreme behaviors. And since Chad was around death all the time, I believe quite strongly that those experiences, as you mentioned, John, tended to.

John Matthias [00:20:52] To lead to more extreme beliefs. So this wasn't something that was conscious. He wasn't consciously doing this. But the fact that he was around death all the time, I think really kind of ramped up his beliefs in a more extreme direction.

John Matthias [00:21:06] And it gave. He, he, he became more invested, I think, in his writings and his beliefs and his visions for the future. In addition to what you just said that I, I think you're right. I think that there were some midlife issues, midlife crises going on and, and working in a cemetery certainly wasn't what he envisioned for his life. He didn't feel particularly successful, I'm sure, although I'm not sure he would admit that, but, but absolutely. It was a stark contrast, I think, to this vision he had of being really influential in the Mormon world and writing books that were taken seriously by the church, none of which was happening.

John Matthias [00:21:47] He never became a bishop, which I'm sure was really disappointing to him in Springville. So I think there were a lot of failures that, that, that were going on behind the scenes that, that kind of underlay his work in a cemetery that, as you said, John kind of created this, the sense of failure and this midlife crisis.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Love it. Okay, so Julie had these books. She kind of got this reputation of being a energy healer. She publishes some books about near death experiences and her ability to prophesy and forecast, you know, natural disasters and things in the future, kind of end times prophecies by a Mormon woman. Chad hooks up with her as her publisher. Is there anything else we should say to set this up before we play a few of these clips?

Lauren Matthias [00:22:45] I say we play them.

Mindy Caldwell [00:22:46] Okay, let's go for it.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] So here's the first clip that is kind of interesting. It's basically Eric Smith, which is a. Mindy, do you want to introduce Eric Smith?

Lauren Matthias [00:22:56] Yeah, maybe we should introduce Eric Smith.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] So Lauren, do you want to go first and then Minnie can fill in her impressions of Eric? Because absolutely.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:07] I first, I first learned about Eric Smith in December of 2019 when there was a podcast. He and Julie Rowe had a podcast together and they did a podcast in December of 2019 right after the story broke. And the only thing we knew at the beginning was two missing children. A Deseret book author and a once primary president are being looked at and there are two missing children and what in the world? And so right after that story broke, it was the day after Christmas 2019. Eric Smith and Julie Rowe jump on a podcast and announce that essentially Julie announces that Chad is innocent and she knows his heart.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:51] And I have been so intrigued with Eric Smith ever since. And they, they did these podcasts together. It was. It's called Eyes Wide Open. And since that time, I have interviewed other people that knew Eric Smith and Julie Rowe. I learned just how tight knit this group was, and Eric even allowed me to interview him, which I know we'll get into later. But Eric Smith is somebody that is a big believer in Julie Rowe, a big person in the prepper movement in East Idaho and someone that started. And he, he's essentially the belief of multiple probations or reincarnation.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] Anything else you want to add about why Eric's interesting?

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:37] I think that, that, that covers it.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:38] I found it fascinating that I hadn't really heard of him, but he's, he's a pretty major player in this movement and this development of this kind of theology that, that Chad adopts and runs with.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:50] Very major player.

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] All right, so this is, this is a clip of Eric Smith talking about Chad's gifts. For me, it was one of the most powerful and impactful parts of this entire interview. I think I want to do a, a reaction video with Mindy as maybe a part three to the series where we just play this amazing two hour interview that you, you, Lauren, did with Eric Smith. Because to me, it really explains Joseph Smith. If you look at Eric Smith's beliefs in Chad Daybell's powers, it explains how people could believe in Joseph Smith even after he never found any treasure, even after the polygamy, even after all the problems, you've still got all these people believing in Joseph Smith after the Kirtland bank scandal.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] How can you still believe in someone when there's so many problems? This is Eric Smith talking about his continued belief in Chad's powers and after Chad is now in prison or, or accused murder. Right, right, right. And so this is, this is Eric reflecting on his belief in Chad's gifts. All right, and, and I'm going to just ask Lauren, Dr. John and Mindy, you guys tell me to stop the video when you think we've seen enough because you guys know this video better than me. Is that okay? Okay. So this is Eric Smith reflecting on Chad Dabel's gifts.

John Matthias [00:26:14] He.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [00:26:14] Yeah, so he, he became so curious, and I think he did recognize, and I'll be honest, I think he does. Chad is gifted. There is no denying it. Okay. And anybody who says otherwise is, is, is probably not being truthful with themselves. People are spiritually gifted. I believe all of us have spiritual gifts. And a lot of people are empathic and can read people's energy and hearts. And, you know, Chad had some of that. Chad. How was he gifted?

Video Clip 5 [00:26:42] How was he gifted?

Video Clip 5 [00:26:43] Well, he had a thin veil. He could see and discern things on the other side of the veil. He could see energies. The thing that I've learned, and I've

Video Clip 5 [00:26:53] been around a lot of, say, gifted

Video Clip 5 [00:26:56] people in this way, in the visionary aspect, knowing, discerning things on the other side of the veil. Julie has exceptional gifts. And then I've met several others that

Video Clip 5 [00:27:09] are the same that are visionary, see

Video Clip 5 [00:27:11] things, discern things on the other side of the. See spirits, talk to spirits, feel their

Video Clip 5 [00:27:15] energy, even smell them.

Video Clip 5 [00:27:17] Their senses are just different than most of us. And I'm totally comfortable with that. The thing that I learned is that with these folks. Okay, And I'm hoping. And I'm hoping that the audience could hear that video.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:31] Okay, we could hear it. I could hear that.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Great, great, great. So, Lauren and Dr. John and Mindy, what do you guys reflect on what we just heard about Eric Smith's belief in Chad Daybell's powers?

Lauren Matthias [00:27:43] I, when interviewing him, I was surprised when he said that, which is why I think I interrupted him and said, what are his powers? I wanted to really understand what he was sharing with me. And when he said he can see beyond the veil, that's exactly what Chad's always claimed he can do. And it was. It was surprising for me to hear that after this is. After they've been charged with these deaths. Like, let's put that into perspective. And Eric believes that Chad did it. So put that in perspective, too. Eric believes that Chad is responsible, that his ego got in the way. And Chad has been charged officially by law enforcement in this crime. And he's saying that, no, he can. He can see beyond the veil. The issue is ego, but that doesn't mean his gifts aren't real. That was surprising for me to hear.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] And I just, I. I have to jump in here. You know, my role in this whole episode is kind of making the connections that I can make between this story and Mormonism. And if you study the life of Joseph Smith, you know, one of the things apologists say when they're, you know, you. If you mention that Joseph Smith took people on treasure digs with a stone in a hat but never found any treasure. If you mention the Kirtland bank scandal, if you mention the polygamy, the 30, 40 wives hiding it from Emma, all the deception, and then his martyrdom, when you mention that to Mormon apologists, what they say is, well, how do you explain that?

John Dehlin [00:29:20] So many people still believed in Joseph Smith even after he was, you know, put in, you know, persecuted for treasure digging. They still believe that he had the power to treasure dig even after his martyrdom. Look at, you know, 16 million people, they will say, still believe in Joseph Smith. That's evidence that Joseph Smith was still a prophet, because how else could so many people believe in him? Well, you don't have to just go to, you know, David Koresh or Jim Jones or, you know, any modern cult leader to, to realize that lots of people still believe in lots of cult leaders in spite of the horrendous things you do.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] You could also go to Eric Smith and Chad Dade Bell even. And I'm driving, I'm kind of beating a dead horse here. Even after Chad Daybell had murdered people, Eric Smith is still believing that he had the gifts and powers of God.

Mindy Caldwell [00:30:13] And not just that, but if we deny it, then we're not being honest with ourselves. You know, that that segment of the interview is just kind of made me sick to my stomach because like you say, this is way after the discovery of, of those children and, and, you know, all the things are coming together and Eric is very aware of the witness or of the evidence that looks very unfavorable favorably towards Chad and is still. I just felt like there was a void of feeling or emotion for the victims and he still was trying to press home this idea that Chad and Julie, you know, still have these, these tremendous gifts. So it's powerful that they have that mind frame, for sure.

Lauren Matthias [00:30:56] I want to say this too, in this, as you point out, it's a two hour interview. And, and some people I see, you know, probably wanted you to keep playing the part you were playing. I apologize. But Eric did show some humility, too. I brought up this 2019 podcast with him where Julie was stating that, you know, he was innocent and Eric admitted, you know, I wanted to believe he was innocent and I was wrong. So Eric was showing some bits of. Yeah, you know, I, I should have seen it differently back then. And yet even then he's like, no, Chad is gifted, though. He does see beyond the veil that I'm not gonna like, maybe waver from at all. So I thought that was interesting too.

Mindy Caldwell [00:31:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] I want to thank our, our viewer, Sean Bennington. I think I said Chad murdered people, and Sean says allegedly murdered people.

Lauren Matthias [00:31:51] Allegedly. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] And yeah, we thank you listeners and viewers for, for those corrections. Allegedly. Yeah, yeah.

John Matthias [00:32:01] Let me, let me just weigh in a little bit on this issue too. I think I, I kind of Agree with you here, John, in terms of. The issue to me is, is how do human beings evaluate evidence? You know, how is it possible that someone can evaluate the evidence here in the way that Eric Smith does after, you know, Chad and Julie, for example, made a number of prophecies? Not a single one of those prophecies have come true.

Mindy Caldwell [00:32:28] Not one.

John Matthias [00:32:28] How do you give somebody credibility when not a. In 2015, Julie was talking about the Wasatch earthquakes repeatedly and how horrible it was going to be, and none of it came true. You would think at that point there might be a max exodus from her movement, right? But no, she grew.

John Matthias [00:32:47] And, you know, I think people filter information through their beliefs, through their worldviews, and if their worldviews are strong and extreme, it's unlikely they're going to change that. And also, we know that in terms of, like, conspiracies, for example, if you take the QAnon conspiracy, we know that the two biggest elements in terms of getting people on board with conspiracies are fear and uncertainty.

John Matthias [00:33:13] So you have to think that to some degree, the followers of these folks were influenced by a certain amount of fear and uncertainty, that if there's uncertainty in the world, they want to correct that, they want to amend it and make sure that their views are correct.

John Matthias [00:33:29] And so I think, I think some of those elements are driving this. But it, it really is a fascinating look at, at how we evaluate evidence one way or the other and how we're willing to stick to evidence that clearly is wrong or false.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] I'm. I got an interesting comment From Tina on YouTube. She writes, if someone has spiritual gifts and does horrible things, that is bad, really bad. And what I'm reading from Tina's comment is she's. What, what is the common response to both Julie Rowe, which we're going to get into later, and Chad Dabel and Joseph Smith, frankly, which is, well, someone can still have spiritual gifts and then make mistakes later, but that doesn't take away the fact that they have spiritual gifts. And I just, you know, and this is true, you know, orthodox or mainstream members of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints will, will make the same argument that, well, prophet seers and revelators can still be prophets, but then get wrong, get something wrong, like blacks in the priesthood or polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:34:27] But it really does beg the question, what's the value of a prophet or a seer or revelator or a visionary? If you, if, if you can flip a coin as to their reliability? And if they get it right, well, Then they're a prophet. But if they get it wrong, well then they're, it's, they're, they're human. It just starts the question of how much reliability really is there and what's their value. Because I could get it wrong or get it right 50 or 40% of the time and, and, or, you know, you know, a primate could. So anyway, let's go ahead and jump, if it's okay, to the next little video, which is Julie talking about her relationship with Chad and kind of how they hooked up.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] And then I want you guys to kind of paint the picture of what it was like at these conferences, these preparing of people conferences in terms of like Julie and Chad and books and money and presentations and how that led to Julie's energy work and then what was kind of going on behind the scenes of how Chad and Julie's relationship grew. But we'll start with just Julie describing her, her union with, with Chad. The country to do headlines around the world.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [00:35:49] Gretchen Mark Rose says she was really good friends with Chad and Chad's late wife Tammy, who died back in October. But since all of these deaths connected to the case have come to light, she says her former friend isn't the man she thought he was. Julie Rowe lives in Kansas, but she travels the country to do what she calls spiritual and energy readings. Like Chad, Julie says she's had near death experiences and writes about them. That's how she met Chad several years ago.

Video Clip 6 [00:36:18] He was my publisher for my first four books.

Video Clip 6 [00:36:21] Rose says she also became close friends with Chad, his late wife Tammy and their children.

Video Clip 6 [00:36:26] I did energy sessions for he and some of his kids.

Video Clip 6 [00:36:29] Rose says that Chad often spoke with her about his visions of Tammy dying.

Video Clip 6 [00:36:33] He really felt like she was gonna pass away last night, fall last between

Video Clip 6 [00:36:38] like October and December, and told her that the two were having problems. He had told me in February, one

Video Clip 6 [00:36:44] of the other things he put in the text was that he and Tammy were tight on money and he was doing his best to keep his marriage together.

Video Clip 6 [00:36:50] Rose says her relationship with Chad soured last year over publishing rights. Chad cut off all communication with her, but she remained close with his kids. And when Tammy died In October of 2019, Rose says the couple's daughter Emma called her.

Video Clip 6 [00:37:05] Emma answered her phone and she was sobbing and we had a 40 minute conversation. I believe that he has done some brainwashing with them. I believe he's still using them.

Video Clip 6 [00:37:16] Rose says she never met Lori or Lori's children, JJ and Tyler, but believes it's incredibly selfish how Chad and his new wife have been acting.

Video Clip 6 [00:37:24] Chad's kids were left for the holidays after their mom just died with their dad, taken off to Hawaii with another woman. They have to see pictures of him getting married on the beach, holding hands, while they're stuck in Idaho with the FBI raiding them and police storming their houses and their records and their personal lives, and he's MIA in Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] I think that gives a pretty decent sense for their relationship. But. But Lauren and Dr. John, what. What did this union of Julie and Chad mean in terms of not just their individual lives, but then what. It. What. It contributed to the growing movement of preppers, but then also what. What. What came after that? Does that make sense?

Lauren Matthias [00:38:11] Yeah. Do you want to start, John, Dr. John, or do you want.

John Matthias [00:38:14] Maybe you. You can take that.

Mindy Caldwell [00:38:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Preppers. It's a bunch of Mormon preppers about the end times and buying ammo and buying food and buying MREs and tents. We've got that foundation of a bunch of Mormon preppers. What does. What does Chad and Julie entering the mix do in the movement into their individual lives? That's the question.

The Light and Dark Rating System and Zombie Ideology

Lauren Matthias [00:38:36] Okay, well, one thing that Eric Smith brought up in the interview with me was these three different tiers. Can I begin there a little bit? Does that work? So there. He explained that there. The tier one is Mormonism, mainstream Mormonism. Tier two is where Eric took it. He believes in multiple probations, reincarnation, which he considers a beautiful belief system in the hereafter, as well as a few other things. Tier 3 is where he mentions perfect little. Yeah, thank you. He mentions zombies are tier three. This is Chad. This is what Eric Smith is claiming. Chad's belief system is justifying infidelity, prophesying murders, evil, dark. A rating system.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:27] But. But I want to say. And. And then Eric Smith, who is a believer in Julie Rowe and. And was good friends with Julie Rowe, did this podcast with Julie Rowe. In fact, there was a picture of Chad and Julie in that. That newscast that you showed there with her mouth open. They cut off Eric Smith on the left side. So, you know, so Eric Smith is saying that this was Chad's, but I have to say, no, this was Chad and Julie's. Chad and Julie went house to house with a pendulum, telling people who they were in past lives, rating people light and dark.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:58] They would. They would correlate with each other on their spiritual gifts. They both could see beyond the veil. Chad's veil was ripped, and so Julie's was fully open to the. They would hear things and confirm things, and they. When I see tier three. I just want to say I see Julie Rowe in every one of those things in, in my opinion. And I just think it took this prepper movement to a whole new level. In addition to this, they're still doing the prepping movement. Julie is asking people to deed their property to her for her non profit. She's having 2000s, you know, 2000s of people come to the, you know, tabernacle in Rexburg to hear her speak.

Lauren Matthias [00:40:47] Getting people's, you know, taking people's life savings from them. We know of three people that have, were requested to deed their property to her cause. And so in addition to this, we're getting into these. We can see whether people are light or dark. We know who you were in a past life and multiple probation. So. And Chad is. Has more money, I think, at this point too, than he's ever had to. So throw that, you know, tangible thing in too.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] So let me see if I can summarize. So we've got all these preppers largely in like eastern Idaho, Rexburg, but also in Draper and in Arizona. In Arizona, they're all into prepping. But then when in these prepper conferences, Chad and Julie are showing up, selling books, speaking, they start to become kind of celebrities within the prepper movement. And then. Yes, because. Because then they can sell their energy work or they can have private get togethers, which you talk a lot. You know, people that you interview on your YouTube channel slash podcast, start talking about this. Chad and Julie start meeting individually in these small groups both in Idaho and in Utah and in Arizona.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] And they start, you know, they start talking about their longing for more advanced Mormon doctrine. So yes, Mormon theology. Yes, Mormon theology. We all have spirits. Yes, we had a previous life and we have an afterlife, but that's kind of milk. That's just boring. Like we, we learned that in, in elementary school. We learned that in primary.

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] They want the meat. And so what, Chad? And so Eric starts developing this, you know, what we're calling second and third tier theology, which is that number one, it's, it's marrying this idea of reincarnation with Mormonism. He doesn't like the term reincarnation just because it has negative connotations. But it's this idea that not only are we currently living as spirits, but we lived in previous lives as different spirits. So maybe I was Napoleon Bonaparte, or maybe you were. Maybe you were Joan of Arc. Right?

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:56] Yeah.

John Matthias [00:42:57] And, and.

Lauren Matthias [00:42:58] But neither of you were a slave, just so you know.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:00] No, that. That's.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:01] No servants in this group.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:03] We've laughed so hard about this, about, about this. When this multiple probation movement, you know, when they started talking about this, it was very interesting how or what people, what they were telling people that they were, or who they were telling people that they were in previous probations. And it's, it's almost always. It seemed to be really important. You know, Biblical, I think.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:33] Isaiah, Joan of Arc.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:36] Yes. Like really important.

John Matthias [00:43:37] Henry viii.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:38] Yes. People in, in, in history and biblical and Book of Mormon, very important people. Samuel the Lamanite and Alex Cox, who was the who who also passed away. He's another death in this, in this saga.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:52] That's Julie's mother.

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:53] This is. No, it's Laurie's brother's brother. He was, he was told by Chad Daybell that he was the angel that came to Nephi in the Book of Mormon who protected Nephi when Nephi was getting beat up by his brothers. And so he kind of took on that role. So it's just another illustration of how it was all important people. And we laugh like it just. How convenient that, that all of these,

John Dehlin [00:44:18] all of these important, all these Rexburg

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:20] really important people came back as like middle aged white guys in Rexburg.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] All these Rexburg.

John Matthias [00:44:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] Preppers all of a sudden are some of the most important people in history.

Mindy Caldwell [00:44:30] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] So if you, if you take Eric's beliefs of multiple probations and then these, this idea of spiritual gifts with, with people like Chad and, and Julie claiming to have spiritual gifts, they're the ones and others going around to people's homes telling them, almost like a patriarchal blessing, who they were in former lives. So that's kind of one important theological development which then leads to this idea that people like Chad or Julie have the ability to see whether someone's spirit is either light or good or evil and dark. And can someone explain if, if a spirit is evil and dark, what that means? What does that mean?

Lauren Matthias [00:45:18] Dr. John? Take that one away. He loves Chad's rating system. What that means.

John Matthias [00:45:25] Yeah, I mean, it, there's a, there's a lot of ways to interpret that, I guess from a psychological standpoint, which is where I'm always going to begin. It's about power. If you have the ability to judge someone lighter, light or dark, then you have power over them. So when you combine all the things you're just talking about John and Mindy, you know, the, the multiple probations and all this other stuff, and you combine it with the light and dark system, you're putting yourself in a position of authority, of power to really take control of a situation and to judge people and to separate them into basically good and bad.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:13] Yeah, and Chad and Julie both did that.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] And theologically, if somebody. Okay, we all have spirits, right? If somebody is evil or dark, what does that mean in terms of what's happened with their spirit? Does that mean that. That they've been possessed by evil spirits? And then is that how the zombie thing comes in? Because at some point their actual spirit has left their body and so evil spirits have taken over their body, and that's what a zombie is. Tell us about how evil and dark connects to zombies. And let's not introduce Lori yet or kids, but just talk about the concept.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:52] Well, you're in luck because Chad Daybell left us a lot of information on how his rating system worked. He explained that if you're. He uses a decimal point system as well. You're usually like a 5.1. Yeah, 5.1, 2.1. He'll tell you how dark or how light you are to a very specific point, decimal point system. He explains that there's a lighter dark system. If you are dark, but you're not too dark, you can kind of come back from that and maybe become light. If you, you know, hit up another multiple probation or something, you've got a chance. You know, he's telling you there's a chance for you. But if you are really, really dark, I think it's like 4.1 and beyond, then there's no coming back. You're pretty much screwed and your spirit's

John Dehlin [00:47:47] bad or that your spirit's been replaced. Do we know?

Mindy Caldwell [00:47:50] Well,

John Matthias [00:47:55] I mean, it's, it's confusing how it goes from possession, you know, possession to zombies. What we do know is that they're. They talked about the idea of 20,000 zombies being present in the United States that needed to be eliminated. So somehow this idea of zombies is important because it's part of their calling or their mission to eliminate zombies. And we know that there was a lot of discussion that the number was around 20,000. So that actually raises the question of whether you know of. To what extent, how far could this go? To what extent were many people in danger? Right. I mean, I don't. We don't know because they, they, they ended it fairly quickly after everybody that was murdered was considered a zombie or alleged.

John Matthias [00:48:45] Alleged, let's say that. But we don't know. You know, based on this idea of many, many thousands of zombies, we don't know where this could have gone. We've talked to people that are close to this movement. And they say he would have kept going. There would have been many, many more murders.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:04] I want to say this too, because a lot of people claim that the zombie thing came out of nowhere and it was right before the murders. And zombies is crazy. You know, I don't know where this term came from. First off, the term zombie has been around for a while. There are comments on a vow or eval that we talked about in our last podcast episode. This is a prepping website with its headquarters out of Rexburg, run by Christopher Parrott. And Chad is commenting.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] Keep going. Sorry.

Lauren Matthias [00:49:34] Oh yeah. We have screenshots of comments he made on the AVOW site and he's asking Christopher Parrott, so when these zombies come in from Idaho liberal, Idaho Falls, that's what he was referring to, the liberal. And the liberals start coming towards Rexburg from Idaho Falls. Do we just shoot them? What do we do? You know, and he's.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] And nobody's the liberals in Idaho Falls. Yes, because there's a college like Idaho State University. Is there? Or something like what is that? Pocatello, I forget.

Lauren Matthias [00:50:04] No, Pocatello. Yeah, but, but no, exactly. It's, it's. I know that comment's mind blowing on so many levels, but he's referring to shooting zombies. And essentially zombies are what is possession in what some people believe is a possession, according to Eric Smith, where an evil spirit enters a good spirit. So it's even beyond rating you as a spirit or how evil. And you know, there's the rating system, how light or dark are you? But there's the idea that your spirit, you could have even been a great spirit, you could have been a top spirit, you know, the most light of light good spirit there is. But that doesn't mean that evil spirit can't enter you somehow. And then we've just got to maybe get rid of you and shoot you before you, you know, get to Rexburg.

John Matthias [00:50:58] It can, it can enter you. If Chad Dabel says it's entered you.

Mindy Caldwell [00:51:02] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:04] I also want to bring up this book one more time because I'm learning how important it is. You've brought up Denver Snuffer, who is so important and Mindy brought this book up last time and a lot of people now have said it's by John Pontius, who's now deceased. He died just before, just after publishing this book. He tells a near death experience of a man who goes by the name of Spencer. And in it it talks about possession, it talks about portals. And Chad Dabel mentions this book, Lori Daybell, Valo Debel loved this book and I think that this book is important too. If you want to understand zombies and the rating system, maybe, you know, head to your local library. Let's hope it's not there. But you know, you can check this out.

Mindy Caldwell [00:51:48] I was just going to say that that book, the reason I mentioned it last time is in my personal experience with this movement and with family members, that book was extremely influential. It was gifted to me, actually, by my family members. So.

Lauren Matthias [00:52:02] Yeah. So zombies is not just like out of the blue a month before the murders by Chad Daybell, it still exists, this idea?

Mindy Caldwell [00:52:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] And just to be clear, well, what we're trying to do is paint the picture. So because of these prepper events, because Chad and, and Julie becoming celebrities, they're starting these little small groups where they're going around all over the country and meeting with these small groups and I'm going to share one comment from. From a viewer.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] Smilezim says, I was a part of those prepping groups and ate it all up. I was a true believing Mormon back then. I was ashamed at how I ate it up. Now that I'm out of the church, I can now see how easy it was to fall into the bs. And that's the point we're making, isn't just that Chad and Julie developed some weird beliefs. It's that they had, because of these events in their books, had these massive followings like Denver Snuffer, where they had thousands and thousands of people all over the Mormon church believing that Chad and Julie and even others had these special powers.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] And I think it's okay if we just play a quick clip that ties back to Joseph Smith. It's basically of Chad, you know, using a pendulum.

Mindy Caldwell [00:53:17] We have to talk about the pendulum really fast.

John Dehlin [00:53:19] Okay, do you want to, do you want to introduce it?

John Matthias [00:53:21] Mindy?

John Dehlin [00:53:21] Introduce.

Mindy Caldwell [00:53:21] Can I get that? Can I do this one, guys? So Chad comes across a necklace, I believe in a. Just a LDS chapel. Correct, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:53:32] Correct. While he's cleaning the chapel, while he's

Mindy Caldwell [00:53:34] cleaning, some, some young woman or mom lost her necklace at the church. Chad finds a necklace and he, he claims that the spirit told him that, you know, it was, it had special powers just for him. And then he, he subsequently used that necklace throughout the rest of his, you know, of this practice of like using it to, to gauge people's lightness and darkness and, and their mortal or the premortal probation, those types of things. So yeah, it was a pretty special necklace that somebody's missing.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] And where would Chad get the Idea that objects can have special powers.

Mindy Caldwell [00:54:13] Well, magical thinking has roots in the very origins of. Of the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] And a really good book on that object is. Is Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview.

Mindy Caldwell [00:54:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:24] Which talks about Joseph Smith owning a Jupiter talisman, about him using a stone in a hat. Others use stones, peep stones, with the claims of being able to see spirits, to see spirits guarding treasures underground. The whole Book of Mormon narrative comes out of this idea of a spirit, of a treasure buried in the ground, golden plates with an angel guarding it, Moroni. And Joseph Smith being able to see all this through a stone and a hat. So Chad is basically just saying. And again, Dr. John, you brought this really important point up both today and last time. If you're going to want power over people, you need to claim to have special powers.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] And sometimes you need an object that you claim helps you have special powers. And the reason why we're bringing up the pendulum isn't to make people look silly. It's to basically. It's to basically introduce that Chad is doing what Joseph Smith did, which is he needs an object to help him appear as though he has more powers so that he can have power over people. And that's why.

John Matthias [00:55:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] Pendulum. To tie to Joseph Smith and to. To explain how Chad gets extra powers. Is that all right?

Lauren Matthias [00:55:35] Yeah. Oh, go ahead, John.

John Matthias [00:55:38] Not to go too far with this, but. But, you know, for example, in the Nazi movement, objects, symbols, images, music, all these things can sway people, Right? All of these things. Are you, like, in the Nazi movement? So many of these types of things were used to influence people and to get them to buy into the movement. And so obviously that was a much more extreme version of this, but same idea.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:56:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] Okay, so let's go ahead and play a clip, and I'll ask Lauren and. And Dr. John and Mindy to tell me when to stop the clip. But this clip talks about Chad's use of a pendulum. Anything else you want to say, Lauren, to set up this clip?

Lauren Matthias [00:56:17] Yeah, I. I got in touch with this man who I interviewed, Dustin. I think you're playing Dustin's interview, is that right?

Mindy Caldwell [00:56:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] And Thane, he.

Lauren Matthias [00:56:27] His name came out in a. What we call a document dump that was released. And as someone who was a very special person in a past life. And so we got a hold of him and he says he was never a believer of Chad, but he had an experience with him. And this is what is called family history, what Chad does. So on our YouTube channel.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] And what is Chad. What are we going to be hearing Chad doing with this pendulum? Just so that we. That'll help us understand the actual clip better.

Lauren Matthias [00:56:56] He comes with another person to this person's house to tell him who he was in a past life. And this is how he did it.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] He uses this necklace as a pendulum to do it. Okay, here we go. Here's the clip.

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [00:57:12] A time that Chad asked if he

Video Clip 7 [00:57:15] could speak with me.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:17] He.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:17] I mean, we're from the same town.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:18] He lives up the road a little bit. An acquaintance.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:21] I did not know him well, so he came over with a friend. They asked to speak with me away from my wife, which was a little odd.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:28] They took me to a place in

Video Clip 7 [00:57:29] my house, and he began to explain

Video Clip 7 [00:57:32] what he had been into.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:33] And a pendulum. And he was asking these questions, and he told me what level of light I was and listed all these people that he thought that I was in a. What did you call it? Another probation.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:47] Anyway, an uncomfortable situation.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:50] I sat through it, listened to him,

Video Clip 7 [00:57:52] and that was about it.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:53] He called it family history. I remember a few of the people

Video Clip 7 [00:57:57] that he said that I was.

Video Clip 7 [00:57:59] Which made me very uncomfortable.

Video Clip 7 [00:58:00] They told me that I was not

Video Clip 7 [00:58:02] to speak to my wife about it.

Video Clip 7 [00:58:04] And they left. And of course, I went straight to my wife about it.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:08] That's good.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] But a time that really quickly, Chad asked if he could speak. So you're so scrolling on this video like Adam and Abraham and John Taylor and John the beloved and Noah. Remind us why those names are on the screen.

Lauren Matthias [00:58:24] This was the document dump that I referenced where I found Dustin's name. His. The name. The. His name was there as who he was. And what's fascinating again is this comes from a law enforcement investigation when people want to say, this has nothing to do with Mormonism. This is what law enforcement had that was released to the public. Chad's family history documents, and Destin's name was in there. He did not want publicity. He did not want his face, you know, shown. But he was so kind enough. He was kind enough to do this interview with me to explain how this happened and what Chad did. And it was so enlightening. So these. These. This was act. These are actual documents Chad Daybell put together that landed in law enforcement's hands.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] So why. What is Chad doing with mentioning Enoch and Noah and Abraham?

Lauren Matthias [00:59:18] That means he's trying to figure out who was who in past lives.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Yeah, because you've got to check that, right? Like, if I'm. If I tell Mindy, she was, you know, Joab or Some, you know, or, or Soraya. I can't go tell somebody else. They were Soraya too. Right. And so if you know Eric Smith was Isaiah, then we got to make sure nobody else claims. If somebody else claims to be Isaiah, then there's a problem. So you need some documentation to track who was who in former life.

Lauren Matthias [00:59:48] Honestly, one thing that's interesting about those, the, the documents that you just said. What are they? What are they? We had the same question. You. Did you look at those? And no, there's no, there's no translation. You don't know what the heck they are. But that's how I found Destin's name. What in the world are these? Oh, well, look, there's a name. I'm going to look them up. Okay. He lives in Rexburg. Can you help me out here? Can you help me figure out what these are? Because I have no idea. And so if you rewind it a bit, it does show Dustin's name circled. I started with that. And who he was. Sorry, go ahead. Dr. John.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Oh, Dr. John. Did you want to add something?

John Matthias [01:00:27] I was just going to say that what, what he calls family. Family history is what I would call recruitment.

Mindy Caldwell [01:00:34] Yeah, I see this as. I just think it's just him flexing. I think he's just gotten this power that he's just, it's just, it's going crazy.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] What's this don't tell your wife thing?

Mindy Caldwell [01:00:46] I think that that is really important thing to talk about and was a common theme when they would get in these small groups oftentimes away from their spouses when they would talk about these things and talk about more past probations. A very common theme from Chad and Julie and others in the group was don't tell your spouse about this.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:05] There was a lot of division. We've heard this from multiple sources now and I have multiple interviews explaining it too. So on, on camera and off that Julie Row specifically loved to divide the spouses and Chad Dell was clearly doing the same thing. And you're right, this was a recruitment effort. I agree with Dr. John. This was recruitment.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] And by the way, because I want to tie things back to Mormonism, if you study Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy in the Nauvoo time period there, there were inner circle people that were allowed to know and, and there were lots of people who were actually high level leaders in the church like William Law or Emma, who weren't in the know. And so where would Chad get the feeling that he had license to hide things from People, even within inner or outer circles. Well, that really literally comes from Joseph Smith. Emma Smith was like the 21st or 22nd wife sealed to Joseph Smith because Joseph Smith hid the first 20 wives from her.

John Dehlin [01:02:10] It was only until he got caught that he actually fessed up to Emma that he was practicing polygamy and, or adultery, depending on what you think about Joseph Smith. And, and again, top leaders, there are several top leaders of the Mormon Church, like Signe Rigdon, like Oliver Cowdery, like, like William Law, that weren't down with polygamy and that weren't, you know, Brigham was cool with it, but there were lots that weren't. And so you know that that practice of hiding things comes directly from Joseph Smith. And so this is where I think it's a good time to introduce something that was kind of like National Enquirer level scandal within this case.

Foot Zoning, Energy Work, and Cult Grooming

John Dehlin [01:02:48] You know, there's, there are always discussions in the, in, you know, let's just say in the active orthodox Mormon realm or in the PO or in the post Mormon realm about ethical non monogamy or, you know, swinging, that sort of thing. And if, if these are just people, if these sort of neo prepper Mormons in Rexburg are just people, after all, and you've got a bunch of husbands and wives meeting together without their spouses. I guess if you were just putting on your psychological or mental health hat, you would predict that there would be swinging or polygamy going on.

Mindy Caldwell [01:03:24] Right?

John Dehlin [01:03:25] You would predict it. And it turns out that we learn from your amazing investigative work and maybe a few others that you've drawn from as sources, I don't know where you do a good job of incorporating other people's work as well. We learned that in fact, part of this second and third tier theology is that there really was polygamy or polyandry or swinging going on, even with potentially Chad Dabel, Julie Rowe and others. And we've got some clips where, where we talk about that and I, I, so that's where this idea of celestial Mormon prepper swinging comes into play. And it ties into this idea of foot zoning and energy work and multiple probations.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] And we're going to play a couple of clips, but I just want to set it up of how foot zoning, energy work and multiple probations leads to polygamy and swinging. Do you guys want me to set that up or do you guys want to set it up?

Lauren Matthias [01:04:28] Go for this is all you, John De Lyn.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] You, if you believe in energy, that we have spirits and that, that people like Chad Or Julie, have special powers to like, discern your spirits or to, you know, to help you cure you of trauma, either from this life or past lives. So you need somebody with the special powers. Right. But then you need a way to kind of do work on them. And that's where either the Reiki or the foot zoning comes in, where you get them to lie down and you're touching their foot feet, it's becoming more intimate, which can be a grooming for, you know, sexual, you know, shenanigans. You're getting them to lie down on the table. Oftentimes their spouse is there. You're working on their feet. You're saying, I feel your spirit. You were Isaiah, you were, you were Marie Antoinette, you know, and I was Louis xvi. In a past life, we loved each other.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:25] This is just, you know, continuing our relationship.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] We had, we had a bond in a prior life life, you know, we were connected.

Mindy Caldwell [01:05:34] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] You, you would have met at one of these avow or, or preparing a people conferences. You would have started to feel that sexual tension. Now, now through foot zoning, you're telling people about what they were in a past life. And then, and even if you've got the spouse there, that starts to groom people for what becomes swinging or polygamy. And sometimes the spouses are even in the room.

John Matthias [01:05:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] And so we're going to play a couple clips that address this. And again, I'm going to ask Lauren or Dr. John or Mindy to tell me when to stop the clip. Okay, so this first clip, Lauren, do you want to set it up of who it is and what we're talking about in the first clip? This is, this is the clip in your wonderful YouTube channel that, that's, that's entitled Julie Rowe, cult leader or spiritual healer. And I think it's a woman that's being interviewed here.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:28] Yeah, this is, this is, this is the interview that really broke it. This is it. And I'm so grateful that this woman and her husband came forward. We refer to her as Girl on Fire. It's the Girl on Fire interview. And she and her husband humbly came forward and said, we were taken into Julie Rose Cold. It were ashamed. We're not happy. Nobody's talking because they don't want to. And we're going to tell you what happened to us in the hopes that our, you know, other people will come forward too. So I want to commend Girl on Fire and her husband Paul. He'll, he'll allow me to say Paul, she's Girl on Fire in Reference to a podcast she used to have that she's now taken down for coming forward. And. And they are who. Who really broke this open.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] So the characters in what we're about to hear, Julie Rose got this bodyguard, right?

Lauren Matthias [01:07:25] Joel Gervine is her main bodyguard. He has a lot. She has a lot of bodyguards. But Joel Irvine, who we hear about, Joel Grine, is the main bodyguard. We're also going to hear Eric Smith's name, I think, later on, depending how long we play this video. I'm not totally clear. And then Girl on Fire is an anonymous, because she wants to stay anonymous. Her husband is Paul, and I am interviewing both of them.

John Dehlin [01:07:48] So because Julie Rowe is going to all these conferences and is super prominent. Her bodyguard Paul, then.

Mindy Caldwell [01:07:55] No, Joel.

Lauren Matthias [01:07:55] Bodyguard Joel. Husband Paul.

John Dehlin [01:07:58] Bodyguard Joel has power and fame because he's associated with Julie. This is how this all power works. So now he can go around and groom people for sexual shenanigans or polygamy

Mindy Caldwell [01:08:10] under the guise of.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] Under the guise of energy work or.

Mindy Caldwell [01:08:13] We were married in a previous probation.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] The combination of energy work, foot zoning and. And multiple probations with. With, you know, because he learned from Julie how to do this discernment, how to do this energy work and this foot zoning, and now he's literally a woman. The Girl on Fire is telling us the story of how Joel groomed her to become his mistress. And he did it partly while. While Girl on Fire's husband Paul was in the room. Right. Okay, here's the clip. And this is so great and disturbing. Okay, sorry.

Lauren Matthias [01:08:51] Paul was there. Like, we were all in the same room together, and he. He's on Paul's feet first.

Mindy Caldwell [01:08:56] And a little awkward. The guy doing it on a guy's

John Dehlin [01:08:58] feet, you know, groomed first.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:00] So Paul's like.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:00] It was a little awkward, but it was fine.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:03] And then when he got to.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] I just want to pause that. And so just to be clear, Joel is grooming Girl on Fire, but he foot zones the husband, Paul first.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:15] Right.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] And kind of make Paul comfortable with Joel touching his wife, right?

Lauren Matthias [01:09:20] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] I mean, I just. It's just so bizarre.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:24] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:25] All right, we'll continue.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:26] My feet.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:27] It was.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:28] I felt again how I felt in that energy conference, like I was under some hip hypnotic state, and he was looking at me differently.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:36] Like I could just sense it and feel it.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:39] But what do I say?

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:40] At that time?

Lauren Matthias [01:09:41] I could have said, no, you're right. But I didn't because I didn't know what was going on.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:46] So.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:47] And they were supposed to be our Friends. He was supposed to be our friend.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:50] And anyway, so I noticed that was going on.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:54] He'd use essential oils because that's. You know, what you do when you do foot zoning. You apply essential oils on. Different oils can help with different ailments. Or you can. Yeah. You can pray or bless. Bless them to help. Pray for them.

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:10] The oils just like you can do anything. Whatever he was doing, it was foot

Lauren Matthias [01:10:16] zoning, but in a spiritual sense, manipulation sense. It was using that as a means

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:22] to get closer to me.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:23] Right. And manipulate me more. I believe that when I was in

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:28] the energy conference, I think that's when it started.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:31] But.

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:31] And.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:32] And then as he came around, then I noticed different things. But. So then they got done zoning our feet, and he left. And then he texted me the next day and was just like, hey, how you doing?

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:44] From it?

Lauren Matthias [01:10:44] And I'm like, I definitely felt some different things. And he's like, oh, that's good. That's good.

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:50] And I'm. And some of it had to do

Lauren Matthias [01:10:52] with multiple probation stuff of.

John Matthias [01:10:55] Did you.

Mindy Caldwell [01:10:57] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:57] So as this woman was teaching foot

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:00] zoning, she mingled in energy work somehow.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:04] So not only are you foot zoning and touching the person physically, they were trying to do energy work, which means getting to your spirit to figure out

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:14] things is what they were doing.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] Tapping into the subconscious is what somebody would say. Yes, the world. But in that sense, it's spiritual.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:24] Right, Right. So I knew that he was learning this from this lady. And I asked him, when he texted

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:30] me, I was like, yeah, I feel different.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:32] But, like, did you find anything out?

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:35] Like, meaning multiple probation stuff or anything about me?

Lauren Matthias [01:11:40] Like, I. Obviously at that point, I was naive to this stuff.

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:44] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:44] People can say, like, well, you were dumb. Like, I had no idea this stuff was all new with multiple probations and the way they were teaching energy. Right, Right. So I didn't know.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] So mistakes are made.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:59] That's one thing. I want to make clear that a

John Dehlin [01:12:04] lot of others that were in this group don't want to admit to that there was mistakes made and things that we could have done to change things. Yeah. To shield or protect ourselves more. But we didn't. So us specifically, there's a lot of shame involved with that. Right. Because you made a mistake, you sinned, or. Yeah, you were taken advantage of. And so that's very real, and that's part of the process that we had to go through.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:32] But, yes, what you said taking advantage of. I'm sensing myself. A lot of grooming.

Mindy Caldwell [01:12:38] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:38] Oh, absolutely.

Mindy Caldwell [01:12:39] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:40] A lot of grooming. You to trust them.

Mindy Caldwell [01:12:43] Uh huh.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:44] To put your trust in them. Yeah, this is. Right, this is good. So I want you to know that I'm seeing a lot of that. Absolutely.

Mindy Caldwell [01:12:51] 100%.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:53] And so he's like. But there's some things that I learned.

John Dehlin [01:12:55] Okay. Really quick. I, I like, I like the part where she actually talks about their texting back and forth. But Mindy, I mean, there's so much to just unpack already.

John Matthias [01:13:03] We may want to return.

Lauren Matthias [01:13:04] Yeah. That story can to be continued.

Mindy Caldwell [01:13:07] That's. I don't know if we'll play more clips or if we want to just kind of talk about what happens after that.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] What were your reactions, Mindy, to what you heard? I'm just curious.

Mindy Caldwell [01:13:15] Oh, I mean, I just think it's classic grooming and I think that Lauren touches on that. I was, I was honest. I was signaling you just with some notes about what's going to happen later on in the conversation. So I wasn't quite sure if we wanted to keep listening to this gripping interview.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] Well, a couple things that start. Tell me if this stuck out for you, like just the idea, you know, we talked about the Mormon Church not teaching people. You know, part of this is to what extent is the Mormon Church culpable or liable? Like, these people have been raised Mormon. Right. They've been raised in. I was to distrust science, to distrust evidence, and to believe that people have spiritual gifts and powers. That's all. Whether it's patriarchal blessings or priesthood healings like that, you know, or psychologists are bad, or evolution's wrong, or global flood and a 6,000 year earth. That's a mindset that you can easily be raised with in mainstream Mormonism. And so you hear a girl on fire going, I didn't know. Like, he's just, he's telling me he's got powers, that I'm believing him and what can I do? Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:19] Very real. Right. She was so. Yeah. She really had no idea.

Mindy Caldwell [01:14:23] Yeah. And I, I think it was really brave of her to tell that story and to be vulnerable about, you know, kind of getting taken by this. But yeah, that, that struck me too as she was talking about how she, she called it hypnosis, that she felt like she just was hypnotized by him. And I think it was an, I think it's an illustration of, of women, a lot of women and maybe in the Mormon framework who just are used to kind of outsourcing their power to other people, to men. And maybe that's, you know, kind of how she was interpreting that you know, am I making sense?

Lauren Matthias [01:15:00] Absolutely.

Mindy Caldwell [01:15:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] Tell me if you agree that. When I heard her talking about, like, a hex or brainwashing it, but it almost felt like she was trying, because clearly she went on to have an emotional affair with. With Paul, with Joel. I'm sorry, I'm so bad.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:17] With the bodyguard Joel.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] Girl. Girl on Fire ends up having an emotional affair with Joel. They. They. In the video, they go on to talk about the. The text back and forth. Like, clearly they're just. They're kind of hot for each other because they're at these. These prepper conferences without their spouses spending time together. They're in these, you know, little meetings at someone's house without their spouses because their spouses have to watch the kids.

Mindy Caldwell [01:15:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] You know, under the guise of, like, developing more spiritually, they're spending time together without their spouses getting hot. And instead of her just saying we were hot for each other and we were without our spouses and we were developing emotional intimacy, it almost seemed like she wanted to say that, that somehow Joel was hexing her with spells. And this goes back to, okay, you can have spiritual gifts, and you can either use them in good ways or bad ways. Joel still has spiritual gifts, but in this case, Joel was using them in dark ways instead of in good ways. Did I get that right or wrong, or did you not get that?

Mindy Caldwell [01:16:18] Yeah, I. I would say. Dr. John, were you. It sounded like you were going to say something about that.

John Matthias [01:16:22] Well, I just think she's. She's trying to. I agree with you guys there. I think she's trying to explain away what's happening. She's trying to kind of rid herself of agency. Right, exactly. To cover up for the fact that there. Maybe there were some. Some desires there or, you know, maybe she was feeling something. And she obviously has to deal with her husband on that issue, too. So this is certainly an easy way to explain it away, is to say that she was hypnotized or she was under a spell or. But it's not really owning it.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:55] Well, I want to give her credit, though, a little bit too. Like, she. I believe that she really believes that. She's not, like, trying. Yeah, she brings this up. She's not trying to hide something. She's really trying to make sense of.

John Matthias [01:17:07] Right. That's how.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:08] And I can say that because that's how she feels. I can say that because I've also had conversations with her outside of the interview, and she's really also, I think, just trying to process during this Interview what happened to her? You know what I mean? I think this is also her still trying to figure it out, you know what I mean? Because of the shame.

John Matthias [01:17:29] So, yeah, you know, the research on hypnosis is pretty clear, though. It's not hypnosis that that changes people. It's. It's their willingness to engage in the fantasies or imaginative elements of hypnosis that matters.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:45] But. And the fantasy, though, starts with multiple probations too, though. You know, like, that's where the grooming comes in, is the power over another. This man is Julie Rose, bodyguard.

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:56] Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:57] And if you want to keep playing the story, it is long, but it's compelling. This is Julie Rose, bodyguard, and he's about to come to her and say, no, we were married in a past life and he stands by it. Even, you know, with her husband.

Mindy Caldwell [01:18:15] I wanted to just add really quickly, I think part of the grooming process as well is the multiple probation talking. And kind of on the down low, it seemed like at this point with Girl on Fire and Paul, like they'd heard about it, but they hadn't really been kind of brought into that inner circle of what was. Was happening. So I think that was part of the grooming process as well as they were anticipating. Are we going to be the extra special ones that kind of get to hear about this and get involved and get pulled into this inner circle? And I think that that was, that was part of that grooming where they. Yes, it made them a little more ripe to be susceptible to this happening.

John Matthias [01:18:53] And it, you could argue, or I could argue that it is a form of hypnosis to, to say that you were married in a past life to bring in the probate multiple probation part, especially when it's, when it's novel and manipulation. Right. He's not expecting it. So that is, I'm sure that's what she was feeling, that that would be a type of hypnosis in a way.

Mindy Caldwell [01:19:14] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] So, Lauren, I, I moved off the video, so I lost the place I was at. Why don't you go ahead and just tell us what they'll. When they go to your actual YouTube channel and watch the full interview.

Lauren Matthias [01:19:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:19:25] What will they hear?

Lauren Matthias [01:19:26] Yeah, please watch the full interview. And, and like I said, I have a lot of empathy and compassion for these two that came forward. But she said at that point, Joel came back again, Julie Rose Bodyguard, and said, I know who you were in a past life, and we were married. And she was so confused and she was feeling emotional things towards Joel. So then she thought well, maybe it's true, right? So again, there's that whole, like that she can't even process any romantic feeling because it's all jumbled with was I married to him? You know, it's all confusing to her. And they had been followers of Julie Rowan, listening to Julio for years at this point.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:08] And she finally told Paul, and Paul called Joel and said, what in the world are you doing? You know, don't ever call me, you know, again. He goes, and he still tried. Joel said, no, I was married to your wife in a past life, and this is real. And we all can pro. We're all going to be married in heaven and we all can procreate with whoever we want. And I was married to Girl on Fire, so suck it up, Paul, you know, because, you know, this is real. And Eric Smith and Julie Row and others confirmed what he was saying. They. That was the end for Girl on Fire and her husband. And, you know, there's more to it and you can hear it in the

Mindy Caldwell [01:20:54] interview, them as a couple, but at the end of them being involved in the movement.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:58] Thank you for clarifying that. That was the end of them being in Julie Rose movement. They. They got closer as a couple, according to them. And they're in our. My interview with them and are still members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so. And I want to say, too, that I reached out to Joel, bodyguard of Julie Rowe, and he did send me a statement that is in its entirety on our YouTube channel as well. And he confirms their story and states that unfortunately it was because he believed that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and that it was Julie Rowe that taught him that Joseph Smith really didn't. And the church made that up. So there you go.

John Dehlin [01:21:38] So we have a clip of. Of Eric Smith basically describing his, you know, the existence of, you know, I don't know. What would you say, Lauren?

John Matthias [01:21:54] You know,

Lauren Matthias [01:21:56] so this is kind of what I was talking about. That. The belief that with. Because it gets blurry.

Mindy Caldwell [01:22:06] Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:06] So in Mormon theology, we believe in, you know, in Mormon theology, it's. It's eternal families. Eternal families. And so if you throw in multiple probations, the eternal family things gets a little, you know, confusing. And so I was asking Eric about this, and I was also a girl on fire, and her husband Paul tried to explain it to me as well. So how do you. How do you combine the idea of eternal families with multiple probations and all of these past spouses? Is that a good.

John Dehlin [01:22:38] Yeah. Tell me when to stop this clip. Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:42] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:42] Okay. This is the doctor.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:45] Shared with me.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:46] With this was Eric and Eric Smith.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] Joel Gervine.

John Matthias [01:22:50] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:22:51] They both agreed with us.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] They shared me that the way that eternal marriage works is that we are all married to each other in heaven and basically we just decide who we're going to procreate with or have spiritual children with.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:08] But we're all married.

Mindy Caldwell [01:23:10] A lot of these teachings came from Eric Smith.

John Dehlin [01:23:14] Right. Well, here's a thought.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:16] I mean, that's pretty good.

John Dehlin [01:23:18] I don't know all the answers that stop there.

Mindy Caldwell [01:23:20] This is.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:21] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] Shared with me.

John Matthias [01:23:23] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:24] I mean, Eric goes on to explain it, but. But that's.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] So was Eric involved in. Potentially evolved in that. Was he married at the time you interviewed him, Lauren?

Mindy Caldwell [01:23:33] Yes. Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:34] And he said that his relationship with his wife is now good.

John Matthias [01:23:39] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:39] I also asked him about being a past spouse of Julie, which I've heard in a few other things in that interview. You can check it out. Yes, he was.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] Yeah.

John Matthias [01:23:48] And so.

John Dehlin [01:23:49] And so, just to be clear, there are allegations that Chad and Julie had some type of intimate or sexual relationship. And then there's. There's all sorts of allegations that Julie had multiple men. This is where the polyandry comes in. That Julie was alienating several men from their spouses.

Mindy Caldwell [01:24:08] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:08] And that Julie was potentially sexually involved with. With lots of different men. Is that what you understand, Lauren and Dr.

Lauren Matthias [01:24:15] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:24:16] Yeah. Yeah. Anything you want to add, Dr. John?

John Matthias [01:24:22] I think it speaks for itself.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Okay. And I'll just make the point that, you know, again, there's always. The whole point of this podcast is how much of this is just what normal humans do, and then how much of this is influenced by Mormonism and the. The Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. And I just have to say Joseph Smith practice polygamy. He practiced polyandry. He taught about celestial marriage and eternal marriage. He taught that we all become gods someday. And there's this idea with all of these, you know, Rexburg and, and Draper and, and, you know, Mesa Mormons, would they all have just all of a sudden started swinging together as believing Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] There's this quote that I think I referenced last time where good people are always going to do bad, good things. You know, there's always going to be good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. To get good people to do bad things, you need religion. And the idea there is, is that it was a belief that, wow, polygamy is scriptural. It's in doctrine and Covenants 132. Joseph Smith, our Founding prophet practiced it. Wow. There is the teaching of eternal marriage, but also now there's this teachings of spiritual gifts and revelation and prophecy and whoa. I'm feeling attracted to these people I'm meeting at these conferences and whoa.

John Dehlin [01:25:39] I trust their spiritual gifts and wow. Now I'm being told that I was, you know, your. Your spouse in a prior life. Oh, well, that's what these feelings mean. I think that's how Joseph Smith thinking about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Solomon and David and the concubines and the wives. I think Joseph Smith having the Old Testament theology in his brain and then interacting with all these women as a powerful man. That's how Joseph Smith gets the quote, revelation that he's supposed to restore all things. Oops. Oh, no. Angel and flaming sword. I have to be a polygamist. Okay. Let me sleep with 30 or 40 different women because God needs me to.

John Dehlin [01:26:19] That's the same sort of way that Chad and Julie and lots of other people because of the Mormonism, because of the Mormon theology and history. That's how Mormon preppers become swingers. Is that. I mean, people are going to argue or not argue. That's the case. Do you think that's crazy, Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:39] I mean, you present a compelling argument that I think is pretty fair.

John Dehlin [01:26:46] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:48] I don't feel maybe as passionate about it as you do, but I think that it.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] Yeah, Well, I mean, I don't know if I believe it or not. I'm just making it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:26:55] No, no, I think it's a. I think it's an important correlation.

John Dehlin [01:26:59] Without DNC 132, without Joseph's 40 wives, without a belief in any. In multiple probations and spirits. And would. Would this have happened?

Lauren Matthias [01:27:09] It's what. It's what Joel Gervine blamed it on.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:27:12] So when I received my statement from Joel Gervine, which he wanted me to read in its entirety, so I want to emphasize the whole thing is on our YouTube channel because I'm only reading part of it now. He blamed it on the fact that he believed Joseph Smith practice polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] Yeah. Wow.

Mindy Caldwell [01:27:28] Yep. Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] Okay. I think maybe it's time, unless you guys want to go somewhere else, to. To introduce Lori Valow into the picture. Should we do that?

Lori Vallow's Background, Marriages, and Radicalization

Mindy Caldwell [01:27:35] Let's do it.

John Matthias [01:27:36] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] So, Dr. John, you do a great job of talking about both Chad's background and Lori Valo's background. What should we introduce about Lori into the picture? And. And we do have a clip of her recorded testimony where she talks a bit about some of her life that we prepped and staged for this interview. But why don't we start with you guys introducing her a little bit?

John Matthias [01:28:03] Sure. So I think there's a, there's a couple of pieces to introducing Lori. One would be her relationship with Chad. She, as far as we, as best as we can tell, she starts reading chad's books around 24, 2014, 2015.

John Dehlin [01:28:22] I'm just giving a one minute sketch on like, her, her. I don't want to be mean and say train wreck of a life before meeting Chad, but like, okay, just give a one minute sketch of her background.

John Matthias [01:28:33] So I, I think if you want to understand Lori's background, you have to understand her father, Barry Cox. And the best way maybe to understand Barry Cox is to know that he wrote a book where he argued some strongly that the IRS should be abolished.

John Matthias [01:28:50] And not only did he write this book, but he actually filed a lawsuit against the government and believed that the IRS was unconstitutional and should be abolished. In addition to that, he was convicted of tax evasion and had to pay back hundreds of thousands of dollars to the irs. So obviously that was before all that. That was before the book. But there's clearly some animosity towards the government and the irs, in spite of the fact that he wants to abolish it. So.

John Matthias [01:29:22] And there's a lot more on Barry that we could talk about. But I, I think if you want to understand the Cox family, that's probably a good place to start because it, it shows his extreme beliefs and it shows that this is not a typical family. I mean, I'm sure most of the listeners out there aren't necessarily big fans of the irs, but to want to abolish it completely, you know, to just demolish it, that's, that's another thing altogether. I think there's something, you know, there's something a little oppositional about that.

John Matthias [01:29:57] So, so I think that's a good place to start, that this is not a typical family. If the Daybell family was what I called unremarkable, then the Cox family is much more remarkable in the sense that their father is kind of this dominant extreme guy with these extreme beliefs. And I have to believe that his, his beliefs in the church were also fairly on, you know, on the extreme side. He was also going to preparing a people conferences. And I think it's fair to generalize from kind of this hatred of the IRS government to, to the family culture to see that, you know, to his religious beliefs and to how those, those elements of Barry Cox really influenced the Family and the family culture.

Lauren Matthias [01:30:47] Okay, so she comes from an extremely LDS, anti government family, a father who doesn't follow law, you know, or thinks he's above the law. And also they all read many near death experience books growing up. I've heard that from a very reliable source.

John Matthias [01:31:09] There's also a story out, you know, again, like, I don't want to spend a huge amount of time on this, but to. This kind of provides a little snapshot of, of the, of Barry and kind of the family culture. I think since Barry's such a dominant guy, it's really important to understand him. In particular, there's a story where Steve Cope, who was married to Barry's daughter Stacy Cox, they went through a contentious divorce and there were some custody battles going on and Barry decided that he would show up. This is actually in a, in a, a victim statement that Steve Cope gave to the police.

John Matthias [01:31:50] Barry showed up at his place of employment and he began to quote scripture and talk about, you know, Barry told Steve Cope that he had no integrity and he was quoting scripture to him. And then Steve Cope reminded him that he had just been charged with solicitation of prostitution.

John Matthias [01:32:09] So I'm sure that irked Barry. He became agitated and he proceeded to grab Steve's shirt and pin him up against the wall and to try to strangle him. I don't know how far that went.

Lauren Matthias [01:32:23] I think there was an assault.

John Matthias [01:32:25] Yeah, there was. So. But he was. Yeah, he was charged with assault and domestic violence before he left. So to me, that's a really fascinating story because it combines so many elements. You know, you have the kind of the sanctimonious self righteous quoting of scripture and then he assaults someone after being reminded that he solicited prostitutes. So. Wow. Right. What a, what a, what an interesting. And there's a record of that. I don't know the disposition of any of that, by the way. I don't know. We can't find the disposition of the prostitution charge. We can't find the disposition on the assault charges. So we don't know what happened. It may have all been dismissed. But, but in, in a really small, you know, nutshell, that's, I think that's a really interesting picture of Lori's father.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:17] Someone's saying, so it's opinion. It's not opinion. It was in a custody battle document that this happened. That's what we're relaying. And then I want to say that he did spend time in prison for tax evasion and also was charged with practicing law without a law License. So this is Barry Cox. There's plenty of evidence.

Lauren Matthias [01:33:35] Add some basics to it. I want to say. Oh, go ahead, babe. Or to add some basics, Lori Daybell grew up in this home. In addition to, on those custody battle docs, Barry Cox states in a letter to the court that he tries to teach his son in law that women are delicate flowers that you need to nourish. So he's quite a misogynist. So he, you know, you know, Lori was raised to be a delicate flower. She was raised in this very dysfunctional home where the law wasn't, you know, followed. And, and then she, she was a cheerleader. It was, she was supposed to be beautiful and she'd been married five times.

John Matthias [01:34:18] And let me just say, on the opinion issue now, there's not knowing the disposition doesn't make it an opinion. We know that there, there's a charge of soliciting prostitutes. That's real. There's, that's in a police report. And there's a charge of assault and domestic violence against Steve Cope. That's real. That's in writing. Just because we don't, just because there wasn't a conviction, that doesn't mean that it's an opinion. It means that there is an actual charge on his record somewhere. So, so what I'm hearing you guys

John Dehlin [01:34:50] say is that she grew up and her dad was a piece of work. Whatever the, whatever the charges are, his dad was. Her dad was a piece of work.

John Matthias [01:34:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] Let me quickly just give a shout out to a couple YouTube viewers. It's just Robbie donated to this program through the Super Chat. He wrote thank you for all you do. You help so many people even if they're non members. You're great. Thanks. It's just Robbie for that super chat donation on YouTube. And then Tina writes, thank you for what you do. I've been fascinated by Mormon history for many years. Just like Mormon Stories podcast, Hidden, a true crime podcast is also supported by donor support. So we want to thank everyone who donates to Mormon Stories to make this program possible, including those who are donating right now on the YouTube Super Chat feature. And I also want to encourage people to support Hidden Accrued Trime Hidden a crew Trime podcast True Crime as well. I'm struggling with the words a little bit.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:42] That's fine.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] So going back, so, so Lori's dad was a piece of work. She grows up as a, as a Mormon, as a cheerleader. And, and you said she was married multiple times, is that right?

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:56] Correct.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] And do we know why? So Many times. What. What could we say about why she was married so many times? Just bad luck. Is that just bad luck? Is that a reflection of her?

Lauren Matthias [01:36:08] I'm sure it had to do with both parties, but I think that when you're raised in a home like Lori was raised, there's. I'll say it. So I would say there's probably some personality disorders. There was probably some impulsiveness,

John Dehlin [01:36:22] you know, daddy issues, maybe.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:24] Yeah. But go ahead, John.

John Matthias [01:36:25] I think so. We talk about this in one of our episodes. There's a book by Pressman and Pressman called the Narcissistic Family. And I want to make it clear I'm not labeling anyone. Anyone in the family as a narcissist. They talk about the family culture, so I want to stay away from that label in terms of calling anyone that. But what they say essentially, is that when there's a dominant parent, it could be a. A mother or father.

John Matthias [01:36:53] You know, they. They take all the oxygen in the family, and so the other family members have trouble breathing. Right. It's like the metaphor of the. The large oak and the acorns that don't get enough sunlight to really grow and kind of spread their wings and become oaks themselves. I think when you have a family culture like this, you know, the. The father is so dominant that the children really aren't getting their needs met. And the children are in some ways a reflection of the father, or at the very least, they want the father's adoration at all costs.

John Matthias [01:37:25] And that piece, Lori wanting her father's adoration in spite of the fact that the family is really dysfunctional is going to be an important piece in terms of understanding her relationship later with Chad Dabel.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:42] Let's. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. John and Lauren, let's just add how these children come into the panel picture. Is that okay? Because there's multiple spouses and there's. I think there's an adoption. And so can we just talk about the children and Lori as.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:55] Yeah, all three. Yeah, I'll take that. Does that work? All three children have a different father.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] There's three children, not two. There's a third.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:03] There's three children. Colby is still alive. He is. He was the one that was not murdered. And he was married and had a baby girl at the time, so. And she was.

John Dehlin [01:38:13] Colby was the child of which husband number what? Of Lori.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:17] Number two.

John Matthias [01:38:18] Number two.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:19] Number two. No, not Joseph Ryan.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:22] Sorry. I'm sorry.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:22] William Longo Lagonia. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] No, no child. No known child from husband number one.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:29] Correct.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:30] Oldie is child from husband number two. Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:33] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:38:33] All right.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:34] And then a divorce and a marriage to Joe Ryan, and Tyler Ryan is from that marriage to Joe. Biological, biological, biological. And then there's a divorce and she marries Charles Vallow. And they have a blended family. He has two sons from a previous marriage. She has her two children, and they want a child together. So they adopt jj, who was Charles Vallow's sister's grandson. So Charles Vallow's sister. Okay. Who's the biological grandmother of jj, had custody of her grandson. And Charles came along and said, hey, to K. Woodcock, Lori and I would love to adopt jj. So to his sister, he said, we would love to adopt your grandchild.

Lauren Matthias [01:39:28] You know, jj, we would love a fan, a son or a child of our own. We would love to do this. And after a while and that, that happened. So JJ's biological grandparents, who sounded the alarm that they're important, the Woodcocks, it's Charles Vallow's sister, but still the grandchild. So that gets a. Confusing. The mother, grandmother.

John Dehlin [01:39:52] Okay. I love it. So that's how we got the three kids. And so what. Talk about Lori's emotional state and maybe her fourth marriage. That kind of makes her interested in preppers and NDEs, near death experiences. The kind of. How does she even. What's. What's going on in her life that leads her to Chad, basically. And how do they get introduced? Is that, Is that okay? Can we go there?

Lauren Matthias [01:40:22] Yeah, I think that's A good question, Dr. John. Did you want to say, speak to that or do you want. She was very religious. Very religious.

John Matthias [01:40:34] Just quickly, Lauren, you're. Is your signal okay? You're. You're freezing a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:40:39] She's okay for me, she's okay for us.

John Matthias [01:40:41] She's okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:40:43] And maybe you guys are coming out of the same home, so there may be a little bit of bandwidth issues for you guys.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:48] Right. I do think that Lori internalized all of the marriages.

John Dehlin [01:40:53] And I mean, that's not the Mormon ideal to be married four times.

Mindy Caldwell [01:40:57] Right. And just from interviews with, you know, some of her family members, I think her brother speculated that maybe she was hoping that. That maybe her marriage to Chad would kind of redeem her because he was, like, really righteous and she. Maybe she felt like a failure because she'd had so many marriages that had ended.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] But what was she even doing? Lord of the Prepper things? Like, how did she.

Mindy Caldwell [01:41:22] I think she was introduced to some of these books and the. The stuff way before she met Chad. Correct, Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [01:41:28] Yes, correct. She was a big fan of Julie Rowe. She read Julie Rose book. She started reading chad's books in 2015.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] We know Denver Snuffers books, right.

Lauren Matthias [01:41:37] She loved Denver Snuffer as a second comforter. Loved it. She, she would give it to her friends as gifts. She loved it. She loved Visions of Glory. She loved it.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] And for those who don't, who didn't join us last time, Denver Snuffer is a, was a member of the church Jesus Christ Saint, served in a stake High Council, lives right now as an attorney in Sandy, Utah. And he came out with a series of books basically saying the Mormon Church, the corporate Mormon Church, is kind of like lagging in semi apostasy. You can cut out the middleman and have direct visitations with Jesus and if you follow me and are righteous enough. So he has several books. What are the names of at least one of those books?

Lauren Matthias [01:42:21] The Second Comforter is, is the specific book that we know Lori read and loved and would give to her friends.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] And it's the idea, hey, you can, you can meet Jesus and you don't need the corporate church to be there. So.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:33] Right. And she absolutely believed that she had met Jesus, without doubt. And then she loved Mike Stroud. Mike Stroud is another one who, who, he has an altar in his home and he also believes in these visions. They're all visionary. They all believe in the second coming is near. They all have had near death experiences. Those are sort of like kind of the trend. They all believe that you can have your own visions. So Denver Snuffer Mike Stroud is a very important one that we haven't mentioned yet. John Pontius's visions of glory that I've showed you. Julie Rowe was huge. She, she was, she was absolutely a huge reader of Julie Rowe and then started reading chad's books in 2015, which are also about the second coming.

Mindy Caldwell [01:43:16] So.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:16] And we was fully engulfed in this community and these belief systems.

John Dehlin [01:43:21] And we should probably say in all fairness that Denver Snuffer was excommunicated in 2013. So that's the Mormon Church basically saying, we don't like some guy saying cut us out as the middlemen. We don't like some guy saying you can have a direct relationship with God and Jesus because the church needs you, needs to be the intermediary between you and God. And so that's how Denver Snuffer got the ax.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:44] And then, and also Julie, Julie Rose been excommunicated. Mike Stroud, who was once a seminary teacher, has now been excommunicated Eric Smith's been excommunicated. Julie Rose been excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:43:54] And do you think all these excommunications happen before even Lori Valo comes on the scene? Or did some of these happen after Lori Valo comes on the scene? When I say the scene, I mean the prepper preparing a people scene.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:06] Denver Snapper was excommunicated for sure. Not sure. Timeline of Mike Stroud.

John Dehlin [01:44:11] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:44:11] John Pontius never was because he died at publication. I don't know if, if Eric Smith, Julie Rowe. Well before. Okay, I don't know about Eric Smith. I can't think. I know the date, but I can't think of it.

John Dehlin [01:44:26] By this time there's a bunch of Mormon neo fundamentalist preppers that are still active in the church. They're in Rexburg, they're in, you know, Draper, Sandy, they're in Arizona, Mesa. They're all going to these conferences. They're still active believing members, but they're starting to go off the reservation and they're following Denver and Julie and others believing in near death experiences. And the Mormon Church is in this pickle because it doesn't want to excommunicate, you know, 10% of its membership in the United States. But also it's, it's, it's cutting off the heads of all these leaders because the church is realizing, man, we're losing liberals and you know, we're losing people on the left who are learning about the church history and leaving and apostatizing. But we're also get having all these, these un. Unapproved, I'll just say crazies from the Mormon churches.

Mindy Caldwell [01:45:16] I don't, I'd be careful.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] What should I say? What should we say? Just I don't know, what would the Mormon Church leaders think of the neo fundamentalist? Just unapproved.

Mindy Caldwell [01:45:25] Yeah. Very unorthodox outside the correlated approved sources.

John Dehlin [01:45:32] Thank you for that correction. Crazy is a bad word. Thank you. I appreciate that. Fist bump. Yeah. So, so. But the Mormon Church is feeling like it's losing control on both sides and this prepper, Julie Rowe, Deborah Snuffer thing is part of it. And that's. But Lori Vala comes into this a believing temple recommend holding Mormon and maybe we can talk about that as a setup to the clip we have.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:54] And I think yeah, it's important to bring up Preparing to People. I just realized that very important to bring up Preparing to People. Preparing to People is run by two LDs, an LDs married couple. They would do these conferences and it was really just about Visionaries and, and being just a better Mormon, you know, and it was all about, yeah, the better Mormon. Right. Like you're around all these Mormons, you can still be different and better. And they would do, you know, second coming talk, near death experiences. And. And again, the visionary thing. And what would also happen is Lori and her entire family of origin was into these, this preparing a people conferences.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:38] And they were all over. They were in Arizona, they were in Utah. They would travel, they would have a whole panel of speakers. And so it really got the ball rolling for a lot of this, I think, is the ability to be able to head to these conferences and feel like you're just enjoying, you know, like a by. It's, you know, it's like BYU Education Week, you know, there's no difference. And so I think that that's an important part of this too. And Chad was a speaker at these conferences, these preparing a people's conferences. They absolutely gave him a platform. They've now rebranded, by the way.

Lauren Matthias [01:47:10] They're still doing it. They're now Latter day media. Same, same two people. And Lori would attend these conferences to enlightened and fulfilled, and so would her parents.

John Matthias [01:47:21] And this is.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] Oh, Dr. John, let me say one quick thing.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:25] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] When I'm living in Logan in cache Valley in 2013, 14 and 15, there are members of my ward that are attending both the snuffer events and the preparing of people events. There's, I would say, probably every ward or branch in Utah front, or definitely on the Wasatch front all the way down to St. George and into Arizona and Idaho.

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:49] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:47:50] This is. Every Mormon ward has at least 5 to 10 to 20 people that are a part of all this at some level. Is that Mindy, is that your experience?

Mindy Caldwell [01:47:58] I feel like that's probably fair.

John Dehlin [01:47:59] Yeah. Yeah. So this is a big deal. And we're talking historically retroactively. This was becoming a really big deal. And it still is a big deal.

Mindy Caldwell [01:48:08] Right.

John Dehlin [01:48:09] Okay, go ahead, Dr. John.

John Matthias [01:48:10] Yeah. So, you know, to me, the most important piece is Lori's encounter with chad's books in 2015. Yes. I agree with you guys that the foundation was set with Denver snuffer and Julie Rowe and she was reading all that stuff, but she was really smitten with Chad Daybell and his books. And she was creating this fantasy of who this guy was in this world and this vision he was creating. And she was buying into this fantasy. And simultaneous with that, we know from talking to Colby, who's Lori's son, I met with Colby for Three or four hours. And I've talked to him several times since that.

John Matthias [01:48:49] She also was a huge fan of Twilight, the Twilight series. So when you factor that in, and. And we know that Twilight, by the way, was written by Stephanie Myers, who's a Mormon or was a Mormon. I don't know if she's active, but the basis of Twilight is this eternal love, right? This immortal eternal love between a human and a vampire. And I think. I think you have Laurie creating this fantasy from Chad's books and from Twilight about the perfect person who unfortunately is not the husband she's married to at the time. So I think she's probably growing apart from him, and she is starting to look for maybe not actively, maybe unconsciously, someone who can fulfill more of this fantasy that she's been creating.

John Matthias [01:49:44] So that, to me, is kind of the setup to the preparing of people meeting in October 2018. When she hears Chad speak, she's not just hearing Chad speak, she's attending that speech with this enormous fantasy that she's already created for years, since 2015, and with this whole Twilight backdrop of, you know, this incredible, intense, eternal love between a vampire and a human. Right. So it, you know, you've got all these elements in place that. That seem to, I think, influence her when she steps in front of Chad Dabel for the first time.

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:22] Good.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] I love it.

John Matthias [01:50:24] We got it.

John Dehlin [01:50:24] We got a comment on here YouTube viewer. It's just Robbie writes Dr. John with another slam dunk. Let's go ahead and play. We set up a little clip of Lori talking. It's. It's this little clip about temple recommend or something else. Right. Should we. Do you guys want to set that clip up and then we'll play it just to give a sense of Lori's mindset, maybe before meeting Chad. Is that okay?

Mindy Caldwell [01:50:52] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:53] Why don't you.

John Matthias [01:50:54] Why don't you set it up, Lauren and I'll talk about it.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:57] This was in October 2018. This is a. This is a testimony meeting, but it's not at church. It's a private testimony meeting among private friends who are gathering together to talk about the bigger, better tier two Mormonism. And so it says in Melanie Gibbs home, this was Lori's best friend. And in Melanie Gibbs home, everyone decided to bear their testimonies. In Lori Daybell's, it was Valo. Excuse me, Lori Vallow, at this time, she was still married to Charles. October 2018 was bearing her testimony about why she, you know, about some of her extreme beliefs. It's a very long testimony. It's extreme. But this is just a part of it.

John Dehlin [01:51:42] So Laurie's attending now these preparing a pupil conferences in a vow. She's getting into it. She's meeting people. She's meeting in these little side groups and starting to get indoctrinated into this new second and third tier Mormonism.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:55] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Prepper Rexburg Mormonism.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:58] And in this point too, just to set the stage a little bit more, she's referring to some hard things in her life because they all have this backstory. Right. So her backstory is she says that she was married to a man who was abusive and abused her children. We're just saying what she said. We're not saying that's true. She's saying this and she's explaining what her where her mind went. Okay, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:52:23] And Lauren, you can just tell us when to stop this clip. Okay?

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:26] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:28] And of all those things, and after

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:31] we were divorced, he told everybody that I was this line crazy Mormon and

Lauren Matthias [01:52:37] got up in court and said all these horrible things about me and turned

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:42] it around to where the judges believed him instead of me. And he was constantly trying to get

Lauren Matthias [01:52:49] custody of my 3 year old daughter

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:53] just to rub it in my face. And I went through a lot of

Lauren Matthias [01:52:57] years of this kind of hard stuff

Mindy Caldwell [01:52:59] and I was going to murder him. I was going to kill him like the scriptures say, like Nephi killed it

Lauren Matthias [01:53:08] just to stop the pain and to

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:10] stop him coming after me and to

Lauren Matthias [01:53:12] stop him coming after my children.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:14] And I was just, I just thought I couldn't take it anymore.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:19] And I would go through the scriptures

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:20] and find all the things like if he comes against you once, if he comes against you twice, if he comes

Lauren Matthias [01:53:24] against you three times, then you can kill him.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:26] It says it in the scriptures. There it is. There's my answer. I don't want to do anything that's wrong. I did not have a murderous heart. I just wanted to stop the bleeding

Lauren Matthias [01:53:38] and stop the pain.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:40] And so someone wise was speaking to me and said, you need to go to the temple. So I went and met my bishop and I was like, I'm either going to turn my life to the temple or I'm going to commit murder. So do you want to give me a temple recommend?

Lauren Matthias [01:53:57] There you go. I was perfectly honest because at that moment point.

John Dehlin [01:54:01] Okay, I, I, I've got something I want to say as a reaction, but I'll give you guys all a chance to, to mention you don't make sure I will.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:11] So mind not your typical tech temple recommend interview, is it?

Mindy Caldwell [01:54:16] I'm either gonna murder my husband or

Lauren Matthias [01:54:18] give me a recommend.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] Yeah, it doesn't usually temple recommend.

Mindy Caldwell [01:54:23] Your thoughts?

John Dehlin [01:54:26] Lauren, what are your, Lauren, what are your reactions to that video? What's important to you in that video?

Lauren Matthias [01:54:32] The either or the black or white, the two extremes. There's, I mean, talk about a lack of complex thinking. I'm either trying to figure out a way to justify a way to kill this man, or I'm gonna just need to really, really, really dig into my religion and religious extremism and start going to the temple all day every day. But there's no in between here. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:59] Dr. John.

John Matthias [01:55:01] Yeah, I think you guys just stole a little bit of my thunder. But no, yeah, there's this, there's this, this binary type thinking, right? This either or thinking. And you know, if we were going to sit down and brainstorm if some of, if we were involved in some type of relationship strife or problems and we had to come up with a list and check some boxes about how to handle the situation, I'm pretty sure that most of us would come up with more boxes than either murder or temple. Right. So it's incredible to me that murder is the first box she's willing to check.

John Matthias [01:55:41] That shows me a couple of things. She lacks cognitive flexibility. Obviously she's very close minded. Right. So also we, we kind of know like this is around the time she meets Chad. We know that murder is. She says she doesn't have a murderous heart, but maybe she has a murderous mind. Right. Like it's on her mind, it's on her radar, which is atypical.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] Well, well that's. Dr. John, I want you to keep going with your flow, but I just have to interject. Where would she get the idea that murder in any case was justifiable within a believing, a believing in God faithful Mormon context?

Lauren Matthias [01:56:20] Can I answer that? She mentioned it and, and I need to. I, I want to talk about this because it's really made me see this in a different light too. I was taught this growing up, this story of Laban and Nephi and she mentioned that in the testimony. She started to. And she cut herself off just like you know, I was going to kill. Just like Nephi killed Lay. And then she kept going. But, but it was absolutely her thought process.

John Dehlin [01:56:49] Mormons, tell us what, tell us what Nephi and Laban, what she means for the non Mormons who've never read the Book of Mormon, chapter three, like in the first ten pages of the Book of Mormon. What, what will that, what would a

Lauren Matthias [01:56:59] reader find I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commandeth. For I know the Lord giveth no commandment unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them to commandment. I like. I have this memorized from childhood. And Nephi knew that he could follow the Lord's direction and knew that he could accomplish by getting these breastplates. And the Lord would find a way. And the Lord delivered Laban drunk. So thus he killed him to accomplish what the Lord had commanded him to do. And I have this scripture memorized. It was scripture mastery that we learned in seminary.

John Dehlin [01:57:35] Yeah. Even his song. There's the song. The Lord commended Nephi to go and get the plates for from the wicked Laban inside the city gates. Laban Lemuel were both afraid to try. Nephi was courageous. This was his reply. I will go.

Mindy Caldwell [01:57:49] Okay, that's enough of us.

Lauren Matthias [01:57:50] Well, I'm proud to say I don't know the song. I'm glad I could say that.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] Yeah. The Lord tells Nephi in the Book of Mormon to go chop off Laban's head so that he can get. There's no other way that God can use his power to get these brass plates that are so essential other than for Nephi to chop off Laban's head. And Nephi is the hero of the first half of the Book of Mormon. So that's where Laurie would get the idea that murder was okay. If a spirit comes to you, if God comes to you, if you talk to Jesus anyway, and God comes to you and says this, your husband is inconvenient. You now have spiritual license to commit murder. Is that, you know?

Lauren Matthias [01:58:29] Yeah. And I want to say this. I hope with all hope, and I don't know what's going, you know, that the. The LDS Church stops putting an emphasis on this story. I really, really renounces it.

John Dehlin [01:58:42] Renounces it.

Mindy Caldwell [01:58:43] Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:58:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] Trent, a viewer says the Bible also has ample precedent for divinely sanctioned.

Lauren Matthias [01:58:49] Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:58:50] And I would also say, and Laurie's not the first. If you look at, like the Lafferty Brothers, if you go read John Krakauer's book Under the Banner of Heaven, there have been lots of murders committed by Mormons by believing Mormons where the Laban story was used as justification.

Mindy Caldwell [01:59:08] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] Yeah. And you don't need the Book of Mormon. You can just use the Bible. Anyway, sorry. Keep going, Lauren. And Dr. John.

Lauren Matthias [01:59:14] Yeah, keep going, Dr. John.

John Matthias [01:59:17] So I. I think the singing, though, is. Is really going to dominate this segment. So I don't. I don't think we can ever top that, but thank you for that. That was really, that was a fine piece of entertainment. I enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [01:59:35] That's a tick tock. That's a tick tock.

Mindy Caldwell [01:59:36] Oh, goodness. Dr. John, continue.

John Matthias [01:59:44] So, you know, this, this is a little tricky, but you know that I would say that from a psychological standpoint that Laurie clearly has what we call an external locus of control. And that means essentially that she's, she's getting motivated and kind of taking directions from things outside of herself. So in this case, religion or the Temple or the Book of Mormon, whatever.

John Matthias [02:00:11] But all of that kind of leads me in the direction of also wondering to what extent does this woman have a moral compass or, or to go even further, like a conscience, Right? Like if you're, if your conscience essentially, if, if, if you need the Temple or a bishop or the Book of Mormon or somebody to tell you that you shouldn't murder someone, then to what, what degree do you really have a conscience?

John Matthias [02:00:39] And I, I think we're seeing some of that here. You know, it, it's. And by the way, a lack of a conscience is, is highly associated with psychopathy. So most psychopaths don't have a conscience. So I don't know enough about Lori to diagnose her. And actually, psychopathy is not really a diagnosis per se. It's not in the dsm. But, but, but I think we're starting to see some potential elements of psychopathy here in this little speech.

John Dehlin [02:01:07] So is that, is it, is it antisocial personality disorder? Is that the dsm?

John Matthias [02:01:14] Yeah, anti Antisocial personality disorder is how the DSM tries to pick it up, but psychopathy is a very specific subset of that. Okay, so, you know, roughly, maybe 10%, 10 to 15% of people with antisocial personality disorder will have psychopathy. So although 75% of the people in prison would be diagnosed with psychopathy. So, so it, you know, this, this little segment we played, I think really reveals a great deal if you, if you kind of dig a little deeper. And one of the most concerning pieces of that is that question I have about whether she lacks a conscience. And because typically, you know, it's, it's so abnormal for someone in this predicament who's dealing with some real relationship, struggles to go immediately to murder. It's just, it's so abnormal.

John Dehlin [02:02:04] I have a question about that, Dr. John, because you talk to people that knew Lori who say she was a loving mom, she loved her kids, she was devoted to her kids. So it was hard for Me to reconcile this idea that she has no conscience and that. But with the fact that everyone reports that she was super devoted. What comes to my mind is she's supposed to be living the Mormon dream. Divorce, divorce, divorce, divorce. Everything's falling apart. Something snaps because her life's falling apart. Then you add the doctrine and the theology there, and that's, that's what leads a desperate person to do desperate things.

John Matthias [02:02:39] But yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [02:02:40] What would your response be in response to the claim that she was a loving, devoted mother?

John Matthias [02:02:46] It's, it's sort of the same thing I hear from, you know, you, you. When, when Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbor was interviewed, he said, oh, he was the nicest guy. You know, it. People aren't going to show you who they really are most of the time. You have to dig a little deeper or you have to be in the right context. So I think her public Persona was one of being a really loving, devoted mother. But her private Persona, that's a different issue. You know, there's. We know that, that Tyler was hospitalized all the time, and we have some indications that there was probably some version of Munchausen's by proxy going on. On, which is an extreme form of objectifying kids. So. Right.

John Dehlin [02:03:28] What is that?

John Matthias [02:03:31] Moonchild by proxy is. So it's not in the DSM 5. It's, it's now called factitious disorder on another person, but it used to be called moonchild. I, I like using the term Munchausens because it's cool. So forgive me for that. Like, you know, occasionally in our field we have to use terms that are cool.

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:53] And I think that moon cousins is just more recognizable too.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:56] It's more recognizable. It's recognizable.

John Matthias [02:03:58] Right, right. So it's essentially when a parent, typically a mother, will seek attention by poisoning or harming their children so that they have to go to the doctor, you know, they have to go to the hospital for visits. It's a very, very, it's fairly rare, but it's a very extreme type of, of mental illness. And we see some of this in Lori. So, you know, this, this notion that, that she was this totally devoted, loving mother, you know, that's. To me, that's a bit of a facade. It's.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:37] It's sort of.

John Matthias [02:04:37] Yeah, go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:38] Oh, I was gonna say, I want to say that I think John. Dr. John and I both agree that she tried to be. I think she wanted to live this Mormon fantasy lifestyle. She wanted to be a good mother. I think that was real. You know, not, you know, not every, you know, personality disorder out there wants to, you know, lead a, you know, criminal life. I think she wanted to be normal.

John Matthias [02:05:00] Yeah, I think, I think I, that's true. I, I think she, I think she really did want to love her husbands and love her kids and, and if there was a moment there freezing, I think she really wanted to love her husbands and her kids. But in some ways she was incapable of it as much as she tried. I mean, there's something sad about this story too. Obviously, as much as she wanted that, she found herself unable to, to perform or to do that, to follow through. And so, you know.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:40] And that would cause depression too.

John Matthias [02:05:43] Yeah, I think she probably had some depression. I think she's struggling with that now in the mental hospital. You know, if, if, if I'm right about some of the psychopathy, you know, psychopaths struggle with what are called distress emotions. Distress emotions are fear and sadness. If you don't feel sadness or fear, it's really hard to connect with other human beings. So, you know, we all, all of us with kids know that our kids are afraid and sad at times. And how do we connect to them if we don't feel those things? Right. So I think she wanted to. I think that's the tragedy here. I think she really, really, really wanted to have a stable life with stable marriages and kids that she could love. But I just think she couldn't get the job done.

John Dehlin [02:06:34] And so, Chad, I'm sure her upbringing didn't help. Right?

John Matthias [02:06:37] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:06:38] Right.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] Yeah.

John Matthias [02:06:39] Chad Daybell is sort of to us, like her last ditch effort to, to, to create the, to make this fantasy real, to bring it to life.

How Chad and Lori Met and Their Affair

John Dehlin [02:06:48] So what do we know about how they met and then how their relationship developed once they met?

Lauren Matthias [02:06:54] So let's use the word allegedly. That's our word for today because what we know, allegedly they met in St. George, Utah at a Preparing a people conference where Chad was the speaker in October of 2000. Thank you. October end of October 2018. So shortly after this testimony meeting three years ago. Yeah, and that's that we know that through her friend Melanie Gibb. Melanie Gibb has stated this, that that is where they met. We've all speculated that it might have been earlier, but no one can prove that. And, and the reason we speculate is three days after they supposedly met at this conference, Chad's emailing Lori and telling her that her daughter Tyler Ryan is, is dark. So it seems like quite a rushed relationship. Right. Where you go from meeting and three days later letting her Know that, hey, by the way, your, your daughter is evil. So.

John Dehlin [02:07:53] And that's coming from Chad, right?

Lauren Matthias [02:07:55] That's coming from Chad to Lori. And that's the timeline we have. They met in St. George, Utah, allegedly at a. Preparing a people conference where Chad was a speaker. We have the speech he gave on that, on our YouTube channel that was given to us.

John Dehlin [02:08:09] But an active Mormon, right?

Lauren Matthias [02:08:12] Chad was an active Mormon. Lori was an active Mormon.

Mindy Caldwell [02:08:15] Married. Yes, married to their other spouses.

John Dehlin [02:08:18] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:18] There were, there were no excommunications that we know of until after Chad was in the news. So they were active. They went every week.

John Dehlin [02:08:26] So if a prophet, certain revelator was going to have a revelation or see ahead, this would have been a good type of thing. Maybe for a prophet or serial revelator to sort of say, whoa, this preparing a people thing is becoming a problem. Let's tell all the members to stop it. Let's cease these conferences, let's shut this all down. You know that this might have been a time for that to happen. Okay, keep going.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:46] Right, so they were, they were active Mormons. And so at this preparing a people conference, they met after his speech, they hit it off. And three days later we have an email that's been released that Chad sent Lori her family history. Just like you saw with Destin thing, it was Lori's family history and he listed all of her past husbands, her now husband, all of her children, her

John Dehlin [02:09:11] past lives and her past, all of her.

Lauren Matthias [02:09:13] Yeah, all of her past lives, who she was, how light she, she was all of her siblings. And that, that husband that she had wanted to murder, who is dead, he was dark and sealed away. Chad let her know. And Tyler Ryan was also rated very dark. About the same darkness as her ex, this ex. And it was, you know, I told you that she had a scale of like you can't go back. Tyler Ryan was at a place where there was no going back back. She was that evil. Her 16 year old daughter.

John Dehlin [02:09:45] Tell me if I'm possibly filling in the dots, right? Maybe she's somehow alone with Chad. He pulls out his necklace, he's doing his little, his spiritual divination thing. Maybe, maybe Lori's kids are around. Maybe Lori would have talked to him about her frustrations with her husband. And in some combination of Lori, they're expressing frustration about her husband or her kids or Chad having exposure to the kids. Then Chad comes up with the idea that all these people around her are dark.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:18] Oh yeah, yeah. And I'm sure that his pickup line was we were married in a past life. You know, that was. That was his M.O.

John Dehlin [02:10:25] you know, like Joel, he's thinking, wow, she's hot.

Mindy Caldwell [02:10:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:10:29] We must have been married in a past life.

Mindy Caldwell [02:10:31] Right.

John Dehlin [02:10:31] So I'm going to use my foot zoning or my. My necklace.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:35] My pendulum. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:36] To groom her. Or he really believed it at this point. Maybe he's a pious fraud where he's like, wow, I'm feeling these feelings for you. It must be. We were in a past life, and that's when the sexuality. The start, starts to be entered into it.

Lauren Matthias [02:10:51] Right, right. And he also stated she had been married to Moroni in a past life. And allegedly Moroni gave his. Yeah, that's for another time.

John Dehlin [02:10:58] But yes, we know who Chad thinks he was in prior lives. Do we know his lineage?

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:04] Off the top of my head.

John Dehlin [02:11:05] Okay, that's fine.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:06] Yeah, I feel like we do.

John Dehlin [02:11:08] But I know he was married to Moroni. That's pretty prestigious.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:11] Oh, yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:12] Yes. And they were. Yeah, yeah. And Moroni gave his ceiling to Chad. Essentially, Morona gave her away when they got married.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:22] Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] That's a privilege.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:25] I was. I'm just gonna.

John Dehlin [02:11:26] This man's best man, basically.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:28] Yep. Back to what Dr. John was saying where I think that Lori was just so ripe to just like, absorb anything that Chad was telling her because she'd had this fantasy of him built up. I'm glad that you mentioned that, Dr. John, because I. I was kind of picturing them just kind of having this connection at the 2018 thing. But she has this long history of.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:50] Yes.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:50] Gaining a testimony of him and his powers. And. And so I think that it was just this perfect storm for them to just have this instant connection be. And I think. I'm sure that Chad loved that this beautiful, you know, cheerleader type girl, you know, woman, was just so fascinated and absorbing all of the things that he was saying. I'm not surprised at all that they had an immediate connection to the point that maybe within a matter of days, he's telling her pretty serious, you know, things about her child, and she's believing it. Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:12:24] And he loved that she was a cheerleader, so thanks for pointing that out. He had said to somebody that she was hot and loaded. Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [02:12:30] Whoa.

John Matthias [02:12:31] Yeah, that was. That's. That's the other side is that Chad had this. This fantasy of. Of somebody like Lord, you know, Lori, that he would meet and eventually marry. He talked about the two parts of his life. Right. He talked about that with Julie Rowe. He talked about that a lot. That he envisioned that Tammy would die at some point and he would have the second part of his life. And in, in that second half, he envisioned apparently the, you know, the hot loaded cheerleader type. So.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:02] And that I, I was gonna ask you guys about that because if you, if you put on your kind of high school stereotypical brain and you think about who Chad was in high school.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:11] Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:12] You don't think about a guy like Chad ending up with the cheerleader.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:15] Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] What's the, what's the missing element in the equation? It's the power.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:19] Power that he had over her.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:21] Power.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:21] Yes. So many people that have been looking at the story on the outside, like, how did those two even get up, you know, end up together? But I think it's just the power, the spiritual power that you understand it.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:32] Right. If you really understand her history and his history and, and the power that he. Yeah. Said he claimed he had over other people.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:42] I want to talk really quickly about the. How many people knew or had heard Chad and. Or Julie say that Tammy was gonna die? I have such issue with that.

Lauren Matthias [02:13:53] So many.

Mindy Caldwell [02:13:54] Did Tammy ever know that all these people were talking about her dying? I'm so sad about that.

John Dehlin [02:13:59] Can I set that up really quick? Okay, so if we go back to our slide about Eric and Chad's second and third tier Mormon. I should put Mormon. I'm gonna edit the slide right now and put kind of Mormon theologies. Right. Basically, we've already talked about multiple probations, evil and dark and zombies.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] Now we've got polygamy introduced. And of course, if. If all these people are meeting and developing emotional intimacy and even sexual intimacy without their spouses present, all of a sudden those spouses become really inconvenient. Because if Chad wants to make it with Lori, he's still got Tammy. That he's got to figure out. And so what, what emerges, Mindy, what you're alluding to? Well, there's got to be a, you know, can't just be Joseph smith sleeping with 40 women. There's got to be a revelation. And so because all these people are talking to God and talking to Jesus, what's the revelation? And Julie Rowe and Chad Daybell and others in their circle.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] It was multiple people start getting revelations that their spouses, not only that their spouses are going to die, but also they're starting to get revelations. They're supposed to get insurance policies on their spouses that are about to die. Okay. And now, Mindy, now I just wanted to set that up.

Mindy Caldwell [02:15:19] Yeah. We'll just keep going with that.

John Dehlin [02:15:20] Okay. And so, and so how many people?

Mindy Caldwell [02:15:22] So Tammy wasn't the only spouse that was predicted.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:25] No, we know that Jeff Row, who's now Julie Rose ex husband, he was expected to die. We know that from multiple people. We know that Joel Gervine, his wife was supposed to die. We mentioned Joe earlier.

John Dehlin [02:15:40] All the people not in these circles are dying. Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:15:43] Chad Daybell's Tammy was supposed to die and several people have said. Yes, we heard him talk about that a lot. That she was going to die. I think he started talking about that around the time of Julie Rowe, by the ways. And we do suspect that there was. Yeah. Something with Julie Rowe and maybe, you know, he thought it was going to be Julie for a little bit, you know, until Lori came along. That's speculating. But with evidence. But some evidence. But I, yeah, a lot of these spouses were supposed to die.

Mindy Caldwell [02:16:18] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:16:19] And then if you add to that the, the Nephi Laban sort of justification of murder. Murder. You have all the elements for murder taking place.

Mindy Caldwell [02:16:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:16:29] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:16:31] And if an evil ended with an evil dark spirit entering a body and multiple probation, you need to free them

John Dehlin [02:16:39] from that zombies infidelity.

Mindy Caldwell [02:16:42] That's how they frame it is they, they're going to free this person that they love.

John Dehlin [02:16:46] It's an act of love.

Lauren Matthias [02:16:47] From this act of love.

Mindy Caldwell [02:16:48] Yeah. From this possession or from living their existence as a dark soul. Why don't we accelerate that process? Oh, it's tragic.

John Dehlin [02:16:59] Yeah. So anything you guys want to mention about how Lori and Chad's how they get from Lori getting her lineage and Lori and Chad developing feelings for each other. Take us to then I, I, if it's okay just I guess to the murders. How do we take us from point A to point?

Mindy Caldwell [02:17:16] There's so much in between. But yeah, yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:19] Well, it was fast though. I think that Lori, I mean I should have John talk, Dr. John talk about this, but Lori's an impulsive, action oriented woman. I wouldn't call Chad action oriented. In fact, if for many people he was lazy. I think the combination of these two fast forwarded everything, if that makes sense. Dr. John.

John Matthias [02:17:41] Yeah, I agree. Lori was clearly more of the doer and Chad was more of the visionary. And I think, you know, Lori really wanted something to happen. She wanted to, to, to, to obtain this power that Chad as a goddess in the, in the new Jerusalem. That was promising.

John Matthias [02:18:01] And so she wanted action. I actually, you know, I actually sometimes use the analogy with Shakespeare's McBath that I, I In some ways, I see this as very similar to Macbeth and Lady Macbeth in the sense that Macbeth sees the witches, and he comes back home, and he says, hey, the witches told me that I'm going to be king, but I don't think I can do it. And basically, Lady Macbeth says to him, well, you better do it, because, you know, you need to be king. So it's a similar kind of dynamic, I think, where I don't think Macbeth kills the king unless Lady Macbeth kind of pushes him in that direction. And I think. I think you have something similar here with. With Chad and Lori, that she's. She's really spurring them onto action.

Lauren Matthias [02:18:52] It's his belief system. He's the visionary. He's the one that's saying, your kids can't be part of this gathering effort. You know, they're your daughter's dark. But it's Lori who's saying, well, you know, show me something.

John Matthias [02:19:05] You know, again, in Macbeth, you know, Macbeth encounters the three witches, which are the paranormal. They represent the paranormal, and. And they're the ones with the vision of his future. Just like Chad. Chad has the vision. Macbeth brings it home. Lady Macbeth basically says to him, do something. In fact, she kind of threatens him, says, if you don't do something, you know, you're. You're not a man. So I. I think you have something similar. I don't. I don't know if Lori would have said it that directly, but I think there's kind of this challenge to his. His masculinity or his power or however you want to see it. I think there's definitely something like that going on in that relationship.

John Dehlin [02:19:46] Yeah. And so Chad doesn't want to lose the cheerleader. She's saying, put up or shut up on all your prophecies. And, yes, you know, all the implications. And that's a match to the. To the kinder. Kindred. Kindred. You know, match to the wood. What is it? Help me out.

Mindy Caldwell [02:20:06] Kindling.

John Dehlin [02:20:06] Kindling.

Mindy Caldwell [02:20:07] Kindling.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:07] A match to the gasoline can.

John Matthias [02:20:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:20:21] Yeah, yeah. So it goes. So what happens? Just give us, like, an abbreviated timeline of. They start dating, I guess. Do they start dating and hanging out?

The Deaths of Charles Vallow, Alex, Tammy, and the Children

Lauren Matthias [02:20:30] They start dating. They. They're having an affair. There's a. Preparing a people conference in Mesa, Arizona, where Lori is hosting Charles Vallow, her husband, is out of town. Lori's hosting this event, and all of these preppers are staying at her house. You know, because that's what Mormons do. We don't stay in hotels. We stay at people's Houses and so they're all over there hanging out and Chad is there. So Charles is out of town. Chad's hanging out. He's got his pendulum out. We have photos from that moment, this fancy home in Arizona and he's hanging out with all these women.

Lauren Matthias [02:21:05] And I'm sure you know, he was showing them all his pendulum at that supposed so we've seen those photos. Yes, exactly. And we've seen those, we've seen the, we've seen these photos of this event. And we've later heard that at this event Chad and Lori while both married, go to the Mesa temple and they go to a separate ceiling room. And, and they get sealed that Jones, they're temple worthy. They go to the temple both married. I want to emphasize that because they're both still married. You know, here's polygamy for you. And they are sealed in a separate room. Jesus Christ is a witness.

John Dehlin [02:21:47] Moroni, they're like running around the temple somewhere going off to a corner.

Mindy Caldwell [02:21:52] Yeah, they found some, some. They found something, an open room.

Lauren Matthias [02:21:55] I doubt they found someone to seal them. So I'm sure it was their own little place they discovered.

John Dehlin [02:22:00] Yes, but Jesus said.

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:01] Jesus, he was a witness.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:03] Jesus was a witness.

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:05] I'm not sure who officiated.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:07] I don't know who officiated either. We can't figure that out. But Moroni gave Lori away like his ceiling powers to Chad. So essentially.

John Dehlin [02:22:14] And by the way, do we think that they believe that angelic visitors sealed them and were witnesses? Because I mean that speaks to. How did the, the Book of Mormon three witnesses really believe or the eight witnesses, you know, do we think that they really believed that angels were sealing them?

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:33] I think this has been the question for this case, you know, I think so. I, I'm right now today. I think they believed it.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:40] I think they believed it.

John Matthias [02:22:42] They believed it. I believe. I think they believed it.

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:44] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:44] Dr. John Last word. Yeah, they believed it.

Mindy Caldwell [02:22:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:49] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:22:49] That was a big moment. So now they're, they're married to each other while being married to other spouses. So then, you know, and Chad at this point is already declared tyly dark as a dark spirit. She's evil. And then maybe because she doesn't like

John Dehlin [02:23:06] him or she, you know, is loyal to her dad or like, I mean

Lauren Matthias [02:23:11] I would, I can't imagine being Tyler Ryan, a 16 year old trying to deal with, deal with her mother and the situation she's been put in. And I'm sure that it was, you know, she's going, she's growing up. And she. I think she was definitely smarter than all of them. I'll say that. I've read some of Tyler's writings and seen some of her work. I think she was definitely smarter than her mother. And I'm sure that she was struggling with.

John Matthias [02:23:33] She's. She's the.

Lauren Matthias [02:23:35] A lot.

John Matthias [02:23:35] If I stay with the Shakespeare analogies, she's. She's like the fool or the jester in Shakespeare. She's like the truth teller. She actually tells her mother what she thinks of Chad and that she thinks he's. He's a fraud. And so, you know, usually the fool can get away with it in Shakespeare because he's kind of this, you know, moronic character or he's seen as someone not to be taken seriously. But Tyler can't get away with that. So.

Mindy Caldwell [02:24:03] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:24:03] She saw it for what it was.

John Matthias [02:24:04] She saw everything for what it was. And I think she. She was not a fan of Chad's. She pushed back against Chad. And that was not a. You know, we know from speaking to several people that you did not question Chad. In fact, Girl on Fire talks about that, that when she started asking questions to Chad, he shut her down right away. So you could imagine a rebellious teenager in Chad's life pushing back and asking questions and telling her, mom, look, mom, what are you doing? You know, it's. That was not a popular position to have.

Lauren Matthias [02:24:38] We know that Tyler was sassy, and I'm sure that did not, you know, I'm sure that Chad Daybell did not like or know how to handle a sassy young woman.

John Matthias [02:24:48] You know, nor did he want a sassy teenager in his life.

Lauren Matthias [02:24:52] Right. But then I think one thing that really important then happened is after this, they're still in the temple. Chad lets Lori know that her husband, Charles Vallow, is now a zombie named Ned Snyder. And that is really important. And puts the whole murderous rampage into play.

Lauren Matthias [02:25:14] Chad says, your husband is no longer your husband. He's been taken over by a demon. Ned Snider. Charles is well aware of this. Lori's telling him this about all of this stuff. He's seeking help. He's saying he's trying to have an intervention. I don't know, get her. We need to get her assessed in a mental hospital. I'm concerned. She says she's going to destroy me. He calls police. He tries to tell the family. Like, Charles, I mean, gosh, this guy. You see so much body cam footage, conversations with family, letters, attorneys. Like, I'm afraid for my life. She's going to kill me. And I need, we need to help my wife.

Lauren Matthias [02:25:56] We need to help my wife. And nobody listened. And Charles was killed by someone we haven't mentioned yet, which is Lori Deba, Lori Valo, Daybell's brother, Alex Cox. And Alex Cox was another one that we believe, really believed it.

John Dehlin [02:26:11] How did he get looped in?

Mindy Caldwell [02:26:12] Well, I, I've always been really loyal to Lori his whole life. And his brother, their other brother says that he was kind of had a lot of potential but was kind of lazy and you know, never really did much with his life. Didn't, you know, didn't get married until like right before he died and didn't have children. And so he kind of got looped into this feeling special by Chad. And I think I mentioned earlier, like Chad told him he was, he was the angel that appeared to like intervene when Nephi was getting beat up in the Book of Mormon by his brothers. And so he kind of, he, I believe he gave Chad, or excuse me, I believe Chad gave Alex a blessing to, to tell him that he needed to be their protector and like their warrior and he and Lori's protector.

Mindy Caldwell [02:27:00] So he, you know, all of a sudden had meaning and purpose. He'd always had this, this strong loyalty to Lori and wanting to be there and to help her. And so yes, he, he's a big part of especially what happens with Charles. He's, he's the one who, who supposedly kills Charles in self defense. But now it's been ruled.

Lauren Matthias [02:27:20] Right, right. And he likely killed the children too. So, so Alex is important in the sense that he believed that he, he read near death experience books too. He was Lori's older brother and Lori claimed that he was her protector and that's what Chad called him as well. And Lori and he's who called 911 and said I shot my brother in law and, and claimed it was in self defense.

John Dehlin [02:27:47] Really, really quickly, I want to make two quick Mormon ties. Someone mentioned the second anointing in the comments. This idea of going off to a separate part of the temple and having a special ordinance is actually very Mormon. There's an ordinance in Mormonism called the second Anointing on Mormon Stories podcast. We've had two people, Tom Phillips and Hans Embrigita Matson. So that's three all tell about their experiences going off to a special separate room in a Mormon temple and getting a celestial experience which in, in Mormonism involves potentially seeing Jesus himself. So these are kind of these extra special Mormon experiences that happen in temples that can lay the groundwork for Chad and Lori feeling like they can go off to a separate part of the Mormon Temple and have their own special experience. And then I just have to say this idea of the Charles, you said warrior or protector kind of that Alex.

Mindy Caldwell [02:28:46] Gosh dang it.

John Dehlin [02:28:46] I will never get the names right.

Mindy Caldwell [02:28:48] It's such a complicated. Yes. Alex was the protector warrior.

John Dehlin [02:28:51] So Alex is. There's a precedent in Mormon history for the Alex protector warrior character in Porter Rockwell. So Joseph Smith has a bodyguard named Porter Rockwell who tries to assassinate Lilburn Boggs, the governor of Missouri. I'm not making this up. This happens in the 1830s when. When the Mormons and the Missourians all start having problems. And so the. You know, there's. There's Porter Rockwell trying to assassinate the governor of Missouri, and there's this Danites. These Danite characters, this special group of. Of potentially violent followers of Joseph Smith, a secret group that act as protectors to Joseph Smith. So there is plenty of Mormon history precedent. Interesting for, you know, prophets getting special anointing or appointing special characters as. As bodyguards and. Or assassins, basically.

Mindy Caldwell [02:29:50] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:29:50] And I think that's maybe part of how they could anoint Lori's brother, whose name is Alex. I was gonna say Charles. Alex as an assassin. Now, one thing you guys said that I didn't understand for some. Originally, I wondered if Alex had killed the children, but. But then I wondered if it was. If it was Chad. So do you guys want to talk about. And did the children die before Chad's wife?

Mindy Caldwell [02:30:18] Shortly before. Okay, so like a month before.

John Dehlin [02:30:21] Do you guys want to tell us your theory of how. How each of the deaths probably happen and when and where they happen? So. So Lori's husband dies first, Is that right?

Mindy Caldwell [02:30:34] In July.

John Dehlin [02:30:35] That's the first step.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:36] July 11, 2008.

Mindy Caldwell [02:30:39] 1919.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:41] Thank you. Yeah. July 11, 2019. Child.

John Dehlin [02:30:43] Really? Alex in the home.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:45] Alex in the home claiming self defense. Lori's now been charged in the murder.

John Dehlin [02:30:50] Alex is dead, but Lori's charged, and what Alex.

Mindy Caldwell [02:30:54] Likely conspiracy to murder. Okay, yeah, that's her charges right now.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:58] My point is, Alex would probably be charged too, but he's dead, so.

Mindy Caldwell [02:31:02] And then.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:03] And then he faced no charges ever.

Mindy Caldwell [02:31:05] And then her family quickly moved to Rexburg.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:09] Correct. After Charles dies. Okay, so she took JJ and Tyler to Rexburg. So Tyler was 16. JJ was 8. Colby stayed behind in Arizona because he was married young, family, and he just had a child. So Colby says he doesn't even know where. He didn't even know where his mother moved. It was that fast. She just Said, I'm moving. And she moved to Rexburg and got herself a town home. And then it was shortly after that, at the beginning of September, that Tyler Ryan disappeared. But we know now she was murdered and buried in Chad Daybell's yard.

John Dehlin [02:31:45] So was that the trip to Yellowstone or like, do we have an idea of when and how they might have died and then how. When and how they might have gotten buried? And it was.

Lauren Matthias [02:31:53] There are a lot of theories, and I'm. I do not know. I don't think Dr. John and either of us know the cause of Tylee's death yet. We don't know that. And it's been speculated who did it. I suspect it was Alex. I'm just speaking from. For me, other. Other theories going around the Internet are that maybe right after the Yellowstone trip, she was dropped off at Chad's house. There are a lot of theories out there. I'm sure we'll all know one day, but this is not. This is some tight information that we have not been privy to.

John Dehlin [02:32:25] Right. Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:28] I believe the Yellowstone photos are like.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:31] It's the last photo. She was killed. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:34] In the, you know, very short time.

John Dehlin [02:32:36] Do both of the kids go to Yellowstone?

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:37] Yes. Yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:38] And there's a. There's a picture, a beautiful photo of Tyler wrapping her arms around JJ almost, you know, in this protective embrace. And they take a picture of them together at Yellowstone.

John Dehlin [02:32:50] Yellowstone. Who goes to Yellowstone?

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:51] Lori, Alex, Tyler, and jj.

John Dehlin [02:32:54] Not Chad.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:55] We don't know.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:56] He's not mean.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:57] Yeah, she's not. He's not in the pictures. And he didn't go in the same car. But was he there? I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:33:05] Okay, so they go to Yellowstone, at least Chad, at least Alex and Lori with the kids.

Mindy Caldwell [02:33:11] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:11] Right. And the next morning, Tyler's being buried in Chad's yard. The next morning. The next morning, there's pings on Alex's phone in Chad's yard and.

Mindy Caldwell [02:33:25] Right.

John Dehlin [02:33:26] And is there a sense that the two kids died at the same time or different times?

Mindy Caldwell [02:33:30] No, different. Go ahead, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:32] Tyler was the first. No, go ahead, Mindy. Oh, I know.

Mindy Caldwell [02:33:34] Remember the exact dates, but it's within

Lauren Matthias [02:33:36] a few weeks after JJ died. Last week when we did the first podcast, that was JJ's two years since his death. It was September 22nd, I believe is when. So it was a couple weeks later. And. And. And it was really, you know, oddly, they had guests in town during JJ's death. They had just recorded a podcast that night. Fill the Fire with Melanie Gibb and her boyfriend David Warwick, preppers. And then they, the next morning they said, well, we want to say goodbye to jj. And they're like, oh, he's not here. And he was being buried in Chad Daybell's yard. That's their last picture.

John Dehlin [02:34:14] So this is a picture of who,

Lauren Matthias [02:34:17] jj, Tyler and Alex behind them, Alex Cox, who is likely their killer.

Mindy Caldwell [02:34:22] Likely.

John Dehlin [02:34:23] So maybe it's like, let's take them to Yellowstone and take care of them. I mean, that's a possible, like one

Mindy Caldwell [02:34:30] last, one last, one last trip and

John Dehlin [02:34:32] maybe there'll be an accident or maybe, you know, who knows what.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:36] Okay, so.

John Matthias [02:34:38] So the.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] So Tyler dies first. She declared as dark.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:45] She been cleared as dark. And we know now that she's being declared as a zombie. Okay, so I mean, how do you escape that you're not only evil and dark, you're now as zombie? I mean, the girl didn't have a chance.

John Dehlin [02:34:57] So buried in this belief system he's buried in, which connects Chad, she's buried in Chad's yard.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:03] And then the day she was buried. And the Alex's phone pinged in Chad's yard the day after the Yellowstone trip. Chad writes a text to Ty, or sorry to Tammy, his wife, who's still alive, and his wife, and said, I've burned some limbs in the yard. I shot a raccoon, a huge raccoon, A bunch of the limbs. Limbs. He used the word limbs. But you know, I shot a big raccoon, I burned a bunch of limbs. And you know, it's an odd text. And then she just responds, good for you.

Mindy Caldwell [02:35:42] The timing, the timing of that same day, Ty. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:35:46] So that's the second death.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:48] The. After Charles. Second death.

Mindy Caldwell [02:35:50] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:51] First Charles in Arizona, then Tyler and Rexburg.

John Dehlin [02:35:54] Okay. And then the next. Next death.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:57] So on July 22, when Melanie Gibb and David Warwick are visiting and they're recording a Feel the Fire podcast in Lori's town hall.

John Matthias [02:36:05] September.

Mindy Caldwell [02:36:06] September. Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [02:36:07] Thank you. I don't know what I said, but thank you for correcting me. September 22nd and 2019. 2019. And Lori is saying that JJ is a zombie to Melanie Gibb. So she's stating that, look, he's a zombie. He's a zombie. Also, JJ was autistic. He was a rambunctious little 7 year old boy. And. But he was a zombie to his mother.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] And so do we know when he

Lauren Matthias [02:36:39] dies that night or that morning? I mean, I don't know if it was that night or that morning, but he was buried. Alex's phone pings in Chad Daybell's yard the next morning. And Melanie Gibb and David Warwick ask, where's JJ before they leave town? And they say he's with Alex, and they don't see him. And he's. He's buried in the same pajamas he was wearing that Melanie Gibb took a photo of him. Took a photo of him in. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:37:04] That morning.

Lauren Matthias [02:37:05] And those are the pajamas he's buried in. So that's with duct tape all around his body, including his mouth and his arms connected in duct tape.

John Dehlin [02:37:21] Okay, then who's next? And then Tammy's next.

Lauren Matthias [02:37:25] And then Tammy is next. And we know now that Tammy was considered a zombie named Viola.

John Dehlin [02:37:30] By who? By Chad.

Lauren Matthias [02:37:32] By Chad and by Chad and Lori. I mean, I'm sure it was Chad that told her. According to any. According to our sources, Chad is telling Lori that Tammy's now a zombie. So she is killed in October of 2019. I don't know the exact.

John Dehlin [02:37:54] Do we know if she was killed or if it was just reportedly surpassing

Lauren Matthias [02:37:58] allegedly killed right now, Chad Daybell. And only Chad Daybell, not Lori, only Chad Daybell is charged in her death. Lori was allegedly in Hawaii when she was. When she died, but it is been. According. So Chad has been charged with Tammy's homicide in her murder.

John Dehlin [02:38:19] So it's almost like, you know, so it's almost like Lori says, hey, I took care of my family. Now you take care of yours. She goes off to Hawaii. Chad potentially kills Tammy.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:32] Tammy and Alex was parked down the block in the church parking lot the night.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:38] Yeah. Remember, there was a church parking lot. Ping. And it's. It was the night that Tammy died.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:43] And Alex was there.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:44] Alex was in the phone.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:46] Was there.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:46] We could have helped.

John Dehlin [02:38:47] Yeah, it could have been Alex.

John Matthias [02:38:49] And then.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] But.

John Matthias [02:38:50] But.

John Dehlin [02:38:51] But her body wasn't disposed of, right?

Lauren Matthias [02:38:54] No. Chad called to his son Garth, and Garth ran into the bedroom, and Tammy was half on the bed, half on the floor. And Garth says that he realized his mother was dead. And they waited quite a few hours and then called 91 1-IN.

John Dehlin [02:39:15] And then Alex.

Mindy Caldwell [02:39:17] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:39:17] In December of 2019, Alex marries a prepper named Zulema. She can control the elements, like the weather. Supposedly, Chad Daybell. Allegedly, it was an arranged marriage by chad. And then two weeks after that marriage, a 911 call from Zulema's son says, my mom's boyfriend. That's what he called her boyfriend, is not well. He's on the floor, foam coming out. I need help. And he dies. And that was ruled a Pulmonary embolism. By the. By the. You know, in the autopsy. But, I mean, we have our own beliefs there.

John Dehlin [02:40:06] What. What are. Let's just say what are the rumors about what might have happened to Alex?

Lauren Matthias [02:40:10] May. Maybe a suicide. He did this is fact. Before his death, he received a blessing from Chad over the phone. Chad was in Hawaii with Lori and there was a conversation, and he received a blessing from Chad Daybell because he was allegedly not feeling well. That's why the blessing happened. I'm going to speculate. Here's Lauren's theory. I'm not even going to say it's Dr. John's theory. This is Lauren's theory that Chad gave him a blessing to remember, release himself, and that Alex did something to end his life. That's my theory. Nobody.

John Dehlin [02:40:45] Another possibility could be the Chad or Lori wanted to get rid of the

Lauren Matthias [02:40:49] one with another theory. Could be they declared him a zombie and maybe his wife Sulema did something to him. You know. Right. There are. There are several theories. And I want to reiterate. These are all theories. And the autopsy result simply says pulmonary embolism.

Mindy Caldwell [02:41:08] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:41:09] Well, we have a clip of one of the FBI. Is it an FBI investigator talking about kind of some of the more gruesome details? I want to give a warning. It is a disturbing account of uncovering some of the remains. Dr. John, is there anything you want to say in advance of us kind of playing this one clip?

John Matthias [02:41:35] My only thought would be that in the profiling world, profilers sometimes talk about what are called signatures. And signatures are kind of the unique imprint that a person will put on a body or in. You know, in. In terms of the murder, in terms of how the body is found or the state of the body. And so I think. I think you're seeing a little bit of that here. I think you're seeing a little bit of a signature based on the state of the. The bodies.

Lauren Matthias [02:42:12] And when you say in the body, what we're going to hear now is about Tyler Ryan's body. And yes, thank you. This is a disclaimer warning. It's disturbing. And this is during Chad Daybell's preliminary hearing. So that's important. And this is someone that was on the scene. I believe it was FBI helping to uncover these bodies that they had just discovered in Chad Daybell's yard just before they arrested Chad Dbell.

John Dehlin [02:42:38] So this is FBI Special Agent Steve Daniels testifying at, like you said, at Chad Dabel's preliminary hearing. And Lauren and Dr. John, you tell us when to stop. Okay. All right.

Mindy Caldwell [02:42:50] There's a.

John Dehlin [02:42:51] There's a story to be told here at this grave.

Lauren Matthias [02:42:54] So we want to do the same

John Dehlin [02:42:55] thing layer by layer.

Lauren Matthias [02:42:58] Anything noting any significance.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] The difficulty, I think, for us, for this one, was the way these human remains were found. So it was kind of this. For lack of a better term, it was kind of a mass of dismembered human remains. Burnt, partially burnt.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:24] And so we did the best we could. It was kind of hard to recognize. Like, what are we looking at here

John Dehlin [02:43:29] initially, you know, what.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:31] What is this? We know there's tissue here, there's organic matter here, and we just couldn't recognize

John Dehlin [02:43:37] what we were dealing with.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:40] But layer by layer, we tried to. We ended up just excavating all around this mass of human remains, and we

John Dehlin [02:43:48] ended up excavating all the way around it. And at the very bottom of this

Lauren Matthias [02:43:54] mass, we find, you know, this melted green bucket.

John Dehlin [02:44:02] And then to the bottom the side

Lauren Matthias [02:44:05] of that green bucket, we eventually find a skull.

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:10] And then to the side of that

Lauren Matthias [02:44:12] skull, we find a mandible with some teeth. Those are the significant things that you

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:19] could finally see and recognize.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:22] Okay, mass.

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:24] And so we.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:28] That was Tyler Ryan, this beautiful girl. I just want to show her face again, you know, So.

John Dehlin [02:44:48] You can't even speak.

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:49] It's just.

Lauren Matthias [02:44:50] Yeah, yeah, but he's. He's. He's gifted. He can see beyond the veil.

John Dehlin [02:45:01] Gifted. Yeah. Yeah. It's just dark. Yeah. And then they go off to, like, Hawaii together. And then the sunset. Like, what are they thinking? Like, Like, I. I have to think. Let's just assume the pious. That they really were sincere believers and that God wanted them to murder all these people. They go to Hawaii. What are they thinking? Do. Do we know what they're thinking? Are they communicating with anyone? Is. Is Jesus about to come and they're going to usher in Jesus? Like, what are they thinking? How is this going to end? Where nobody's. Oh, by the way, there's a. There was a comment that was made about insurance that we wanted to invoke to just kind of talk about the fact that.

Mindy Caldwell [02:45:48] Okay, go down. You skipped it.

John Dehlin [02:45:50] Oh, sorry.

Mindy Caldwell [02:45:51] Right there.

John Dehlin [02:45:51] Okay, so, yeah, one of our. One of our viewers, George Washington. Hey, Duke says they needed him gone.

Mindy Caldwell [02:45:58] Oh, that's talking about Alex. It's above that.

John Dehlin [02:46:00] Oh, sorry. Let's see. There was a comment about Tammy needing to be alive and her body to be felt so that. So that maybe Chad could collect on insurance. And this is.

Mindy Caldwell [02:46:20] Insurance is a. Is a. Is a big part.

John Dehlin [02:46:22] This is a big part of. Of this, this whole story, do we want to talk about. I mean, we talked about kind of the. We talked about the second and third tiers. What we didn't include there is insurance that, that in addition to prophesying deaths and justifying murder, we've got a lot of these people getting insurance policies on their spouses. Is that right?

Lauren Matthias [02:46:45] Yes. Charles Valo changed his insurance policy to a sister, K. Woodcock, right before his death because it was clear to him that his life was in danger. And so Lori did not get it, and that made her very angry. So K. Woodcock got the million dollar life insurance policy. So I'm sure that Chad and Lori weren't expecting that. But Chad uped Tammy's life insurance policy. So he got, what was it, Dr.

John Matthias [02:47:11] John, about like 4400, 450,000. Somewhere in that range.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:18] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:47:19] For Tammy. Chad got that for Tammy.

John Dehlin [02:47:22] They're going to Hawaii with a boatload of cash.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:24] Right. So Lori didn't have anything. In the end, his hot and low, his hot and loaded cheerleader ended up not getting the million dollar payout.

John Dehlin [02:47:30] She was.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:32] Yes.

Mindy Caldwell [02:47:32] Insurance company, like, with less than 48 hours after Charles was killed by her brother in her house.

John Dehlin [02:47:39] To collect.

Mindy Caldwell [02:47:41] Yep, to collect. And then she was informed that it had been changed to Charles's sister, K. And she was very upset about that and let K know.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:52] And Charles did that because he thought Kay would be able to take care of jj because Laura was being a very distant mother at that point. And so he was worried about who would care for jj. Clearly not Lori. And he was right.

Mindy Caldwell [02:48:05] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:05] We'd all listened to Charles Vallow.

Mindy Caldwell [02:48:08] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:48:09] So we know that they went to Hawaii. They got married on the beach. Less than two weeks after Tammy died, Tammy was buried quickly in another state. It took like three days to have her buried. They went off to Hawaii. We do know, according to Melanie Gibb and some friends, that they really did think that this was going to be the one where the, you know, stuff hit the fan and they were just going to play it out in Hawaii and then come back and no one was gonna notice the missing kids. So they had this blissful beach wedding where they're smiling and playing the ukulele while two kids are buried in his yard there.

John Dehlin [02:48:48] There's a comment about Melanie Gibb. I don't know that I want to really read it, per se, but it's basically saying that it's a. It's a viewer that's kind of really mad at Melanie, wondering if she's even somehow involved in any of this, or knew or should have, why are people expressing anger at Melanie Gibb? Can any of you guys fill that in?

Lauren Matthias [02:49:11] Yeah, there's a recording. There are a few reasons. I mean, she was clearly best friends with Lori, but there's a recording of Melanie Gibb that was uncovered. It was, she was recorded. It was a phone call in January of 2020 by a woman named Sherry Doddle. And I've interviewed Sherry Dottle, who recorded this on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. And in it, she's essentially.

Lauren Matthias [02:49:32] I mean, maybe Dr. John can explain it, but she doesn't have a lot of empathy to the victims. She's saying that they knew that they planned to kill Charles. Or that's imply. She calls JJ a drug baby. She says Tyler didn't like anyone. She speaks kindly of Chad and Lori and Alex, and it seems like she knew quite a lot. She tells a story of Charles coming to her crying and saying, help me, help me, Lori's gonna kill me. And she didn't do anything. So those are just a few things. I don't know if Dr. John wants to add his thoughts on Melanie Gibb because we, we have talked a bit about her as a cult member and

Melanie Gibb, Key Witnesses, and Cover-Up

John Matthias [02:50:11] yeah, it's, it's, it is somewhat confusing. I, I mean, I think Lauren and I have always suspected that she knew a lot more than she's telling, but we don't know what law enforcement knows. I think there's probably a lot of, or at least some anger towards her because there's some general belief that she knew way more.

Mindy Caldwell [02:50:34] Yes.

John Matthias [02:50:34] Than she's letting on and that she probably could have done something, so possibly she could be culpable. So, yeah, that statement is, is accurate. I think there's, there's a lot of confusion about her role and she hasn't been, you know, entirely honest about everything either, so that doesn't help.

John Dehlin [02:50:52] I mean, something that comes to my mind is if there's a circle of prepper, you know, Mormons that believe in this third tier theology, and they're all getting prophecies that their spouses are going to die, and they're all believing that and they're all getting insurance policies, then once people start dying, they've got to be like, whoa, fulfillment of prophecy. We got to be tight about it. But this is the Lord's prophecies coming to fulfillment. So they would be in the know because they had all told each other their spouses were going to die. Right. They all knew.

Mindy Caldwell [02:51:24] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:25] And again, Melanie Gibb was the one that was there in Rexburg recording a podcast with Lori the day JJ went. The night JJ went missing in his red pajamas. So there's definitely speculation. But I think one thing, as you just pointed out, John De Lynn, that it shows how deep this belief system is. I think, if anything, Melanie Gibb was a believer.

Mindy Caldwell [02:51:49] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:49] You know, she. She was in this sure belief system. You know, that recording that we played of Lori Valow sharing her testimony was at Melanie Gibbs home. You know, she hosted these events.

Mindy Caldwell [02:52:05] I. When. When in your interview with Sherry D. Which is the recording that she. She has a telephone call with, with Melanie Gibb, I would, I would direct viewers and listeners to that. It's really super interesting. But one of the things that Melanie says so casually is. Sherry asks, melanie, didn't. Weren't you afraid? You know, didn't you fear for your life? And Melanie says very casually, well, I didn't. I didn't. I. I want to say it correctly. I have it in my notes.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:41] Yeah, you have it written down. Say the quote, because what you're saying is important.

Mindy Caldwell [02:52:47] She says, Sherry says to Melanie, aren't you afraid? And Melanie says, well, I'm not distracting from their mission of being together, so they have no reason to pop me off.

John Dehlin [02:53:00] What does that mean?

Mindy Caldwell [02:53:02] I think that that shows that Melanie knew that.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:06] That what the motive was.

Mindy Caldwell [02:53:08] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:08] And the moment why people were being killed.

John Matthias [02:53:10] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [02:53:11] She just says so casually that. That she was so. I think she. She's such an interesting and crucial part of the story. I do think that she knew a lot. And I think that she could have prevented some of or all of these.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:25] And rumor has it, she's still gathering, she's still religious. I don't know of any excommunication with her at all. I know that she's, you know, she thinks that they were deceived, Chad and Lori were deceived, but.

John Matthias [02:53:41] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:53:42] But, you know, there's a few interesting comments coming in that I think are worth mentioning. Marcella Abel writes, they also probably wanted Melanie P. To get Brandon's insurance, and she would donate her insurance money to their cause. But thank God, Alex was a terrible shot. Do you want to tell us what Marcel is saying there?

Lauren Matthias [02:54:02] Yes, that's important too. You know, when we say that this story needs a chart and like a diagram, this is why. So Brandon Boudreau, he was. Do you know when that drive by shooting was, Mindy? But it was after Charles was killed. I think it was in October. So around the same month that Tammy died.

Lauren Matthias [02:54:23] Yeah. Okay. So Brandon So it was October, around the month Tammy died. Brandon Boudreau is in Arizona and he is married to Melanie. It was Melanie Boudreaux then, is now Melanie Palowski, Lori Ballo, Daybell's niece. And she had. Brandon and Melanie were separated. So now we have two Melanies. This is Melanie, the niece Melanie we're talking about. We've switched directions here. Melanie without knee. Melanie moved to Rexburg and was divorcing Brandon to be with Lori. And this part of this belief system. She was fully invested in this belief system.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:02] She left her children, even Brandon, her soon to be ex husband, but still husband is with his children and working and he, he drives up to his home after work and someone shoots at him from a green Jeep, a green Jeep that Tyler used to drive and that's registered to Charles Valo and misses him by just inches and he ends up having to go in hiding. He had a huge life insurance policy that, you know, wasn't going to be part of Melanie Palowski's life if they were divorced. So this happened right before the divorce was. Was finalized and he's lucky to still be alive. That is still under investigation.

Lauren Matthias [02:55:48] Nobody has been charged with that crime. Crime. We believe it was Alex who shot at him. And so we believe that, yeah, they're right. Alex was a poor shot, luckily. And to. To get a bit of that story, I've interviewed Brandon Boudreau and Melanie Palowski's very close friend Jess on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. So if someone wants to go down that rabbit hole to understand that investigation, Jess is a really important interview and understanding that she was very close with Melanie and watched Melanie Plowski get sucked into this cult. And her story is extremely compelling.

Mindy Caldwell [02:56:27] I agree.

John Dehlin [02:56:30] A couple other comments from viewers. Abigail Parker writes, Lori Gibb said she knew when they called the children zombies that they would be killed. She said that herself in the phone call. So we've got.

Mindy Caldwell [02:56:42] She means to say Melanie.

Lauren Matthias [02:56:43] Melanie Gibb. Yeah, yeah. So again, the, the phone. She's right. The phone call that you have to realize is in January of, of. Of 2020. So there's a little bit of hindsight bias at this point. Melanie Gibb is talking to police and so she is relaying to. To Sherry Doddle her hindsight thoughts. Right. Like, well, yeah, they were killed because they're zombies. But I think the point is she could have known that what was about to happen to zombies. And yeah, she's absolutely right. Thank you, Ab, you know, for saying that.

John Dehlin [02:57:18] Yeah, it's an important.

Lauren Matthias [02:57:20] It's an important. Yeah. Interview or phone recording.

John Dehlin [02:57:24] And this may be repeating things. Abigail's saying that Melanie said after the children went missing, she had the gut feeling that they were dead and it still took her months to go to the police.

Lauren Matthias [02:57:33] Absolutely. She did say that.

John Dehlin [02:57:35] A lot of love for Melanie Gibb in her.

Lauren Matthias [02:57:37] She did say that. Yeah. And this Sherry Doddle, I have to say, the one that recorded this, I have to commend her. She's a woman in Massachusetts who admired Melanie Gibb and was sort of dipping her feet into the prepper movement.

Lauren Matthias [02:57:52] Read Melanie Gibbs book. So she was sort of fangirling Melanie Gibb at the time and had never talked to her on the phone but would write her and was just kind of, oh, Melanie Gibb. And so then when she saw Lori and Chad on the news, she reached out to her. Her Internet friend Melanie Gibb and said, hey, aren't these your friends? And she said, can you call me? So the first phone call they ever had, Melanie's telling her this poor woman in Massachusetts about zombies and all these killings. And Sherry Doddle was so shocked, she whipped out her iPad and started recording her. And that's the recording that was released.

Lauren Matthias [02:58:29] And I interviewed Sherry about what she was thinking and. And she is just fascinating, that interview too. Like she couldn't believe what she was hearing. And Melanie Gibbs seems so detached, which I think is a sign of maybe a cult member too. You know, just like she. She seems so detached from what she's telling this woman who was so shocked.

Mindy Caldwell [02:58:50] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:58:51] I have a dear friend named Stephen Eliason who's a pathologist. Hey, Stephen.

John Matthias [02:58:56] He.

John Dehlin [02:58:57] He appeared also in a way, on the last episode as well. He writes, pulmonary embolism could be either a strong, definitive finding or basically a guess. If you don't find much, this should be clear in a good autopsy report. You're nodding your head. Lauren and Mindy, you said. What do you guys think? Why, thank you.

Lauren Matthias [02:59:17] I just think there's more to it. I mean, I just think it's just, it's.

Mindy Caldwell [02:59:23] The timing is just too convenient. So.

John Dehlin [02:59:27] Yeah, okay. So so much here. We've got a couple quick, little, little quick excerpts of people like I, I. We're going to talk about Julie Rowe in just a second, but we've got this first clip. Is Sherry Dowdle talking about how Tammy died in the zombie thing. Should we share that clip really quick?

Lauren Matthias [02:59:47] Yeah. So this is the recording we're talking about. It's not Sherry Doddle. Well, you'll hear her gasps, but it's the recorded phone call we were just discussing. It's Melanie Gibb talking to Sherry Doddle about Tammy's death. And Sherry Doddle's gasping and asking questions, but it's Melanie the narrator, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [03:00:08] Okay, so this is Melanie. Okay. And. And you, Lauren, will ask you to tell us when to stop the clip.

John Matthias [03:00:14] Okay?

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:14] Okay.

John Matthias [03:00:15] All right.

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:15] So, I mean, it's so much shock. And then she also talked about Tammy. She talked about Tammy. She said she was supposed to die in a car accident, but she didn't die in a car accident. And so she said, oh, we just had to do whatever we had to do to pray to get her spirit. Lori said to her, we had to do whatever we had to do to get her spirit out of. To get her out of her spirit, which probably would get her spirit out of her body.

Lauren Matthias [03:00:37] And so.

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:38] And I said, well, how did she die? She goes, well, we just had to do what we could to take her out of her spirit.

John Matthias [03:00:43] Something like that.

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:45] Uhhuh. She said that they. She had. That Tammy had gotten before, right before

Lauren Matthias [03:00:53] they killed her, a couple weeks before

Mindy Caldwell [03:00:54] they killed her, that she was starting to question and. And thought that there's something going on

Lauren Matthias [03:00:59] between her and Chad Daniel.

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:00] That's what Melanie Gibbs says on this conversation. But she claims that she didn't know she was dead.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:06] And then Lori called her and told when she. She had died or whatever, and she didn't hear about it because she doesn't

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:12] watch TV or something. And then I call her in Hawaii and I said, hey, guess what? You know, Tammy just died.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:19] Do you know this?

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:19] And she goes, no, I haven't heard it yet. And I said, well, what happened? What happened to Tammy? And she goes, well, she was a zombie two weeks before she died. I was like, really? She goes, yeah, she was starting to question our relationship. She was wondering if she was having an affair. I said, oh, I'm thinking she said a prayer and her spirit went home.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:40] That's what I'm thinking.

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:41] Right?

Lauren Matthias [03:01:41] And so, like, maybe she did some kind of, like, blessing or something, you

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:45] know, like, people can do that, I guess. I don't know. And so anyway, but for me, I was.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:52] It was so shocking to me to

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:53] hear about Tammy's death, Charles death, and the kids. And she didn't say, oh, I know that he killed them, other than that

Lauren Matthias [03:02:03] they're dead, that they killed them other

Mindy Caldwell [03:02:05] than she said they're zombies.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:07] So.

Mindy Caldwell [03:02:09] Oh, she did say when she went up there to do the podcast, she asked where Tyler was, and Tyler she said, she said Tyler was at Idaho.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:20] Byu, Idaho.

Mindy Caldwell [03:02:21] And she said, but she gave this real creepy look like, but you really know she's dead.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:25] This look on her face was real creepy look.

Mindy Caldwell [03:02:27] I, I, you know, mentioned again like Tyler went to byu. And she goes, yeah, but she gave

Lauren Matthias [03:02:31] me this really creepy look. Yeah, it was creepy.

Mindy Caldwell [03:02:35] It was like, yes, she's dead. Really? And you know, that kind.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:39] Okay, I'm just so much so.

John Dehlin [03:02:45] Yeah. What reactions to that. And then. Yeah,

Mindy Caldwell [03:02:52] I think it's just kind of along the lines of what we've been talking about with Melanie, just to confirm

Lauren Matthias [03:02:56] all the commenters feelings about her.

John Dehlin [03:02:59] That was Melanie's voice, right?

Mindy Caldwell [03:03:02] Just to talk about it just kind of so casually and kind of robotically. I found that just to be really disturbing.

Mormon Theology as a Factor in the Crimes

John Dehlin [03:03:10] And you know, there's a comment here that really is the whole central theme of the show. Sharon Tree writes, you cannot possibly believe that any church beliefs are part of these people's decisions. We're going to address that at the end. But I just want to make the point, okay, maybe Chad Daybell was a psychopath or, or a murderer had a disorder. But then you had Tammy, then you had Lori. But then you add other people in their circle that kind of knew that deaths were either gonna happen or were happening and felt like they were part of it. Once you start expanding that circle of people who are there planning it or knowing about it, you've also got Lori's brother.

John Dehlin [03:03:55] Are these all individually psychopath murderers? Or is there something that brings them all together, uniting them in a collective belief that this is all how things should be progressing? What is the common ingredient? Are they all just just coincidentally murdering psychopaths? Or is it a common shared set of beliefs, theological based, Mormon and Christian beliefs?

Mindy Caldwell [03:04:23] Extreme.

John Dehlin [03:04:24] That are extreme. Yes, but, but, but that's the foundation, right? I mean, that's, that's the question I think we're asking in this podcast. Lauren and Dr. John, anything you want to add to that or.

Lauren Matthias [03:04:35] Dr. John?

John Matthias [03:04:40] Well, I, I think, yeah, I, I think this has been kind of the point of the episodes we've done is to really build to the point where these murders could make sense. And I hope that, I think, you know, John and Mindy, you guys have done a great job of laying out all the pieces and showing how that could be possible.

Mindy Caldwell [03:05:03] Yeah,

John Dehlin [03:05:05] let's go ahead and show the Eric Smith clip now. Lauren, do you want to set that up? This is the Eric Smith clip about how Tammy died in zombies, I think, right?

Lauren Matthias [03:05:14] Yeah, I think this is just A good. Continuing. Okay, let's hear it and then talk.

John Dehlin [03:05:20] Okay. And tell me when to stop again.

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [03:05:23] You mentioned that you don't believe in zombies. I did want to ask you a little bit of. About where you think that came up. I mean, there's two parts of zombies as far as I'm concerned. There's the term zombies, which is pretty crazy to me. Then there's the idea of a spirit, an evil spirit, being able to inhabit a non. You know, a body that they weren't supposed to.

Video Clip 8 [03:05:51] So most of us would probably call that possession.

Video Clip 8 [03:05:54] Possession. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Because I would say most people say they don't believe in zombies, but this term is pretty crazy, right? Like we're talking like dead fantasy. So let's. You would call it possession, would you say?

Video Clip 8 [03:06:08] Yeah, I mean, I think that's what the scriptures called it. I think the savior spent most of his time going around casting out demons and unclean spirits from. From people.

Video Clip 8 [03:06:19] You would.

Video Clip 8 [03:06:19] You would believe in this then? The possession. Possession or.

Video Clip 8 [03:06:22] Sure, sure, I believe. I believe an evil spirit can. Can possess a body just. Just because the New Testament makes it pretty clear that that happened.

Video Clip 8 [03:06:32] Okay. Okay. I mean, gosh, again, it goes back to this question of then, you know, Chad and Laurie justify their killings using sort of this idea, yet they use the term zombies. But what zombies means is what possession is.

Video Clip 8 [03:06:53] I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [03:06:54] You can stop.

John Dehlin [03:06:56] I want to. Let me pause here. And Laura, is that good?

Lauren Matthias [03:06:59] Yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [03:07:01] So good. Laura, that's so brilliant. That was like a goal, that Oscar. Like, what's the Journal of Peabody? That was like a Peabody performance there, I think.

John Matthias [03:07:13] I think there was a little tell there when you bit the bottom of your lips.

John Dehlin [03:07:19] Don't marry a psychologist. They'll call you out on that. Yeah, Zerk's trying to say the zombie stuff. That's. That's crazy.

Mindy Caldwell [03:07:30] Yeah. You know, that's tier three. Don't mix that with my tears, my precious. Tier two beliefs. I mean.

Lauren Matthias [03:07:37] Yeah, I'm glad you played that. I wasn't sure actually, what sound bite. Because that's the. The. This entire case is Right. Where do these belief systems begin and end? And how many people believe beliefs that are potentially really dangerous? And can we see another Chad Dabel and Lori Valo soon again?

Mindy Caldwell [03:07:57] Yes. You know, and I think it's very relevant to talk about that.

John Dehlin [03:08:04] Well, Julie Rose still alive.

Mindy Caldwell [03:08:06] Yeah. And she's still following her. And Eric, people are following him still.

John Dehlin [03:08:11] And let's. We're going to show just Three quick clips with Julie Rowe. Because again, Julie Rowe not only is still alive, she's still got a big following, and she's still prophesying, and she was in the know on some of this, if not a lot of it. Is that. So, Lauren, is it okay if we show just a couple more quick clips and then we'll wrap up?

Lauren Matthias [03:08:29] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:08:30] Okay, so here is the clip of Julie Rowe admitting she knew Tammy was going to die. All right, And. And, Lauren, you. You tell us when to stop this one. Okay?

Lauren Matthias [03:08:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:08:42] All right,

▶ Video Clip 9

Video Clip 9 [03:08:46] the kids. Let's get to the kids.

Video Clip 9 [03:08:47] Do you want to ask questions or

Video Clip 9 [03:08:48] should I keep going because I'm on a tangent? Just keep going.

Video Clip 9 [03:08:51] I did ask that question about the two children, which is, I think, is one of the big questions people have in their minds.

Video Clip 9 [03:08:55] Are they okay?

Video Clip 9 [03:08:56] I am in such an uproar about the backstory being twisted and turned and people not knowing, and they get all this fear and anxiety and manipulation and control and yada, yada.

Video Clip 9 [03:09:06] And they believe the authorities and they

Video Clip 9 [03:09:07] believe the media when they should be actually listening to, like, what their heart

Video Clip 9 [03:09:13] tells them and get rid of their

Video Clip 9 [03:09:14] fear energy, and maybe, like, ask your guardian angel. But, you know, we don't live in a world like that. The kids are safe.

Video Clip 9 [03:09:24] That's good.

Video Clip 9 [03:09:24] I have nothing to do with it. I don't know where they are. I have talked to their spirits. I have talked to Tammy's spirit. Tammy spirit came and visited me the morning of my class in San Diego. And so.

John Dehlin [03:09:39] Okay, so that. That's really important. Lauren, Dr. John, Mindy, what do you guys want to say about that?

Lauren Matthias [03:09:46] I'll give the background to that. Again, I've brought that podcast up a few times during this episode. That was December of 2019, just after Chad and Lori made the News. This is December 26th. Eric Smith and Julie Rowe get on, and Julie says the kids are safe. Later on in that interview, but it would take a bit to get there. She says, I know Chad Daybell's heart, and maybe you're about to play it, so I don't want to give it away, but.

John Dehlin [03:10:11] Oh, no, no, go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [03:10:12] She says, I know Chad Dabel's heart, and I. Eric says, there's compelling evidence. Are you positive? And she says that they have nothing to do with this. And she said, I know they don't have anything to do this. I know Chad Dabell's heart. They are innocent. And so she says. And then she explains that she sees the children on a beach in white, and they're safe. And happy.

John Dehlin [03:10:36] Yeah. Yeah. So that's again, bringing Julie Rowe back into it. But in it didn't. In that clip, she mentioned she knew Tammy was gonna die. Or did I?

Lauren Matthias [03:10:44] Yeah, several times in that clip. And it's a different part that. But there are actually multiple points. I could even try to find you a time code if you wanted it right away. But several places in that she says, I know that Tammy was gonna die. I saw it, too. I would talk to Chad about it. I would grieve with him about the future death of Tammy. I would say to him, do you still see Tammy dying? He said, yes. I'm just not sure how it's going to happen. But Tammy. We've known Tammy was going to die for years.

John Dehlin [03:11:15] She says, just like Julia predicted the death of her own husband.

Mindy Caldwell [03:11:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:11:21] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [03:11:21] Thankfully, he's still alive. Right?

John Dehlin [03:11:23] Right.

Lauren Matthias [03:11:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:11:24] They got divorced.

Mindy Caldwell [03:11:25] Yeah.

John Matthias [03:11:26] And don't forget the massive earthquakes up and down the Wasatch front. We're still waiting.

John Dehlin [03:11:33] Yeah. She's got several failed prophecies, not unlike Joseph Smith and other millennialistic prophets, All Joe's witnesses, always prophesying the next disaster. The dates come and go and there's always some sort of explanation. And for me, this is just the most unbelievable clip of all, which ties Chad and Lori to Julie, to an ongoing problem that the Mormon Church has and that we have living in Utah and Idaho and Arizona and elsewhere. This is Julie Rowe being called on the fact that she had said that the kids were safe and then realizing that the kids were dead. How she justified it. And for me, this is the most powerful clip of all.

▶ Video Clip 10

Video Clip 10 [03:12:21] One of the lies that keeps going

Video Clip 10 [03:12:22] around is the first podcast I did where I sat, where I said that

Video Clip 10 [03:12:26] the kids were safe and Chadwick innocent. You guys.

Video Clip 10 [03:12:29] I woke up to the truth right

Video Clip 10 [03:12:31] along with the media and everybody else.

Video Clip 10 [03:12:33] I did not know that Chad had

Video Clip 10 [03:12:35] deceived me the way he had. Right along with everyone else. I had gifts, but I am not perfect in them.

Video Clip 10 [03:12:42] I was told by Spirit Realm that

Mindy Caldwell [03:12:45] the kids were safe. And I saw them in a beach house and on the beach. My gifts had not advanced to the point at that point that I could tell that that was in Spirit Realm. Sometimes the dimensions look so real to me. They look like they're in real time, in a physical setting, because that is

Lauren Matthias [03:13:03] how real my gifts are. I wasn't trying to deceive anyone. I did not know that they had

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:11] passed to the other side. But I did do an interview with.

Lauren Matthias [03:13:15] With Nate Eaton the Friday before the Tuesday. The News broke out that the bodies

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:21] were found on Chad's property, and East Idaho News willingly chose not to air my video, where I came out publicly for over an hour telling Nate Eaton that Chad had killed the kids.

Lauren Matthias [03:13:37] You can be done.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:38] I have told.

John Dehlin [03:13:41] I have worked.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:43] I have called the Rexburg Police Department and left messages. That's on them.

Lauren Matthias [03:13:48] I have done nothing but tell the truth.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:51] I have 46 contacts of media that I've talked to and probably close to 200 hours of media that I have given information.

Lauren Matthias [03:14:01] And you guys have seen what the

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:03] media has done with it.

Lauren Matthias [03:14:05] Very little.

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:06] So I continue to take bullets in

Lauren Matthias [03:14:09] social media and from all kinds of

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:10] people because they think, based on what the media's put out there, the little clips that I've said, that I. That I was in cahoots with Chad Daybell or that I was holding out, that I knew something, this is.

Lauren Matthias [03:14:28] How's that feel?

John Dehlin [03:14:31] I just want to play this in

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:32] because all the judging Mormons out there or anybody else decides to judge me

Lauren Matthias [03:14:37] on this planet, good riddance.

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:40] When you get the plague, when the Russians come in, when there are earthquakes in your backyard, when your house falls off of East Mountain, when you are flooded in Saratoga Springs, when the Russians raid your house in Tucson, Arizona, Oro Valley, to be specific.

Lauren Matthias [03:15:01] Good riddance.

Mindy Caldwell [03:15:03] You will deserve what you have earned. Karma is a bitch, and it's real.

John Dehlin [03:15:10] I mean, she is still. She is still out there, right?

Lauren Matthias [03:15:16] Like, she absolutely is still out there.

John Dehlin [03:15:19] And with thousands or tens of thousands of followers and believers.

John Matthias [03:15:25] Yep, thousands.

Lauren Matthias [03:15:27] Her followers come out on our YouTube videos and say that we're spewing lies. Girl on Fires interview was a big one. You know, that, that. That. What you just played was after we interviewed Sean Little Bear, who claimed some things about Julie Rose. She did that the next day, and she called us out and, you know, clearly she's angry. I wonder why. You know, the truth is coming out, but she's still out there, and her followers are. They're in abundance.

John Dehlin [03:16:04] Yeah. And what. What we learned from the psychology literature and. Dr. John, I'm sure you've got something to say about this. More robust than me, is that sometimes when a prophecy fails to come true, a leader can spin it in a way to where believers actually believe more after the prophecy fails to come true than they believed before. Four. Is that right, Dr. John?

John Matthias [03:16:32] Yes. Yeah. Right. I mean, I. I think it. What she says here is that her gifts hadn't developed enough to the point where she could predict then. So what? She's. What? She's. Saying is that now they have. So don't leave me. I'm. I'm all in. And guess what? I'm even better. I'm more accurate.

John Dehlin [03:16:58] So even better.

John Matthias [03:17:00] So climb on board and take the journey. Right. I'm even better. Yeah. So. Right. So that would be an example of. Of a failed prophecy, you know, or a foul cult leader, whatever we want to call her, trying to justify something that didn't work and appeal to her followers to continue to believe, or as you say, to believe even stronger than they had previously.

John Dehlin [03:17:28] And it's so disturbing because now she's using fear, you know, in a cult. It's the bite model. Behavior, information, thoughts and emotions. She's clearly using fear of, like, East Ben, the Russians are coming. Mesa, the Russians are going to invade you. Your houses are going to fall off mountains and plagues. And she's using fear to. To stoke the same sort of prepper anxiety about the coming of Jesus and the apocalypse. She's now stoking it even more than she ever has, which is just going to help her get more followers and then using karma.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:06] Right. If you don't believe me, you're. Watch out for karma.

Mindy Caldwell [03:18:11] Watch out.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:12] You know, karma's gonna get you if you don't follow me, so. And good riddance to you if you don't follow me.

John Dehlin [03:18:20] Yeah. So I guess I've got a couple summary slides again, that kind of summarizes the tie, the very explicit tie between Christianity and Mormonism and this case. But Lauren and Dr. John, I want to give you guys a chance to summarize before I make a final summary

Lauren Matthias [03:18:43] to summarize this case.

John Matthias [03:18:45] Just. Just.

John Dehlin [03:18:45] Yeah, just.

John Matthias [03:18:46] Just.

Lauren Matthias [03:18:47] We're still summarizing it, but I think. I think somebody asked a great question for Dr. John and I saw it, and they wanted to know why everyone was so enthralled with this case. And for some reason, it feels like that might allow a transition to a great summary of what this case is. I don't know if that's something Dr. John wants to mention or. Or if you want to go a completely different direction, but I thought that was great. Like, what. What. What is this case? What is this? That's something Keith Morrison said. He said he's never seen anything like this. In an interview with East Idaho, he goes, what is this? What is this thing? You know, Keith Morrison, dateline host, you know, has done crimes his whole life, and he's been blown away himself by this.

Mindy Caldwell [03:19:33] Wow.

John Matthias [03:19:36] But I mean, that. That's a really. That's a really involved answer. I mean, because there's so many components. But I, you know, I. For me, I think I could sum it up fairly simply, and I can't say what specifically, but, you know, I'm going to be in a documentary coming up early next year. I can't speak more about specifics, but towards the end of that, you know, the director asked me, she said, what is this all about?

John Matthias [03:20:12] What's going on here? And. And this kind of alludes to some things you were talking about earlier, John. But, you know, if I had to sum it up, I would say this is about the fact that human beings really struggle to accept the fact that we're human. We're nothing more, we're nothing less. We're human, we have limits, we're vulnerable. We're human beings.

John Matthias [03:20:38] That's what we are. I think that, you know, many people have a hard time with that notion that they want to be more than human. They want to be divine, they want to be prophets, they want to be gods, right? Like Chad, Dabo, like Lori.

John Matthias [03:20:54] And then, you know, I deal with the other side. I deal with people that sometimes are less than human. They kill others. They, you know, they. They resort to the most malicious, barbaric behavior imaginable. And maybe that's not human either.

John Matthias [03:21:09] So it's. It's somewhere in between, right? So I think in the end, this is. This is about, you know, the craziness of humans, just the tremendous struggles that we have to accept our limitations and to accept what that means.

John Matthias [03:21:29] And sometimes I think the hardest thing for humans to do is just to accept what's in front of us, you know, just to. To know our limitations, to love the people in front of us and to see that is enough.

John Matthias [03:21:43] You know, last year we took our little boy to the Grand Canyon, and he was just awestruck. He was just. He said, dad, it's so pretty, you know, And I thought, that's enough. We don't need more than that. How can we not be awestruck by the Grand Canyon and by my little boy in front of me and by my amazing wife? Like, what more do I need? I don't need to be a God, and I don't need to harm others either. I don't need to be barbaric. I don't need to have rage. I just need to love and accept what's in front of me. So I hate to go on a little bit of a soapbox, but to me, that's what this is about.

John Matthias [03:22:22] This is about humans that just can't accept what's in front of them. And even though the things in front of them are the most amazing things imaginable, they have to create something they want something more. They want something they can't have. They live in this fictional world. So that's how I think I would sum it up.

John Dehlin [03:22:42] So powerful.

Mindy Caldwell [03:22:42] Well said.

John Dehlin [03:22:43] So, Dr. John and Lauren. Lauren, do you want to add anything to that? Lauren, that was so beautiful. Thank you, Dr. John.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:50] That was. We. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. John. It's a little bit off, but I. I just want to talk about something I talked about last week, if that's okay. Is that about the church not mentioning this crime? Is that.

Final Reflections and the Church's Responsibility

John Dehlin [03:23:08] Well, actually, actually save that. No, no, I think I wanted to end with that. So let me. Did you want to say anything, Mindy, before I.

Mindy Caldwell [03:23:17] Okay, I'm looking forward to what she has to say about that.

John Dehlin [03:23:19] Okay. Okay. So just to summarize this, this was the main point of the presentation. We're going to come back to something we've already shared. But, but the, the question that I think we're posing to listeners and viewers not to try and like, say we know for sure, we're all speculating, we're all doing our best to make sense of this.

John Dehlin [03:23:39] I think the case we've tried to make today is to highlight the degree to which there were Christian and Mormon elements that all informed and became kind of the foundation or the bedrock, albeit in a very conservative, very conservative sort of offshore shoot or take, that potentially made a lot of this possible. And it includes from a Christianity standpoint, belief in God, believe in prayer, revelation, evil spirits, demonic possession, second coming of Jesus, an idea of heaven in the afterlife, prophets who speak for God, sexual shame, and even Jesus's teachings that following Jesus is more important than family.

John Dehlin [03:24:28] And then when you add to that the peculiar or the higher Mormon emphasis of a belief in personal revelation, a stronger emphasis in the second coming, which includes the prepper movement, which is heavily supported by the Mormon Church and conservative Mormons. The food storage stuff, the one mighty and strong Davidic servant, the Mormon plan of salvation with past and future lives, the teachings about the veil, spiritual gifts on steroids, including objects with special powers, patriarchal blessings, lineage blessings, healing of the sick, women with spiritual powers. And then you add to that just a culture that DE emphasizes value of science, that DE emphasizes evidence, and DE emphasizes critical thinking skills.

John Dehlin [03:25:16] You combine that with heavy sexual shame, a history of God sanctioned polygamy, teachings about celestial ceilings and eternal marriage, teachings about men and women becoming gods, and goddesses, a bunch of Mormons, frankly, that are not feeling spiritually edified, that are bored at church, that are like looking at these prophets, seers and revelators and saying, where's the beef? You talk with God and Jesus and the best you can come up with are logo changes and, you know, building more buildings and buildings and buildings. You've got these people spiritually hungry for something more. You've got this strong conservative and Republican culture and that, you know, that that's neither here nor there to some degree.

John Dehlin [03:26:01] But then the last point where I think we need to bring you back on Lauren, is literally in the first several pages of Mormons most sacred scripture. And let's not pull any punches. To Mormons, the Book of Mormon is more sacred than the Bible because the Bible is not necessarily translated correctly. But the Book of Mormon is translated literally by the gift and power of God to Joseph Smith. It's pure. It's literally in Mormon theology, the most correct book on the face of the earth. When you add to that the op. One of the opening scenes in the Book of Mormon is Nephi lopping off the head of Laban.

John Dehlin [03:26:43] And I just grabbed a couple of photos there. Here's one photo of Nephi about to chop off Laban's head. This is every child, I was five years old learning this story of Nephi chopping off Laban's head. And it actually says cutting off his head. Like, you learned that as a young Mormon child. Right? You've got Nephi here about to chop off Laban's head. You've got Nephi deliberating, do I chop off Laban's head when he's drunk? You know, the gift and power of God. You've got light coming down as Nephi pulls the sword out, unsheathes the sword with an angel. You know, Nephi's looking up, there's a light shining on Nephi's face.

John Dehlin [03:27:25] It's an angel telling Nephi to chop off Laban's head. And then here's Nephi saying, why, Lord, why? Why must I do this terrible thing? Well, I guess if you're commanding it, then, you know, maybe I need to do it.

John Dehlin [03:27:42] We're kind of making the argument that there is responsibility on the Mormon Church to teach critical thinking skills to. To disabuse members of the notion that if they get a thought or a feeling in their head that they think comes from God, well, that's got to be personal revelation. Not to mention just the possibility of the Mormon Church denouncing that story in the Book of Mormon along with other stories in the Old and New Testament that sanction murder if God inspires you to do so? Is there some sort of culpability on the part of the Mormon church to teach and educate its members better so that the Lafferty murders don't happen again?

John Dehlin [03:28:30] So that the Brian David Mitchell abduction doesn't happen again? If he thinks he should abduct a woman and bring her into his, you know, polygamous cult, you know, you know, just read under the Banner of Heaven. Just read about Brian David Mitchell and Elizabeth Smart. And now read about Chad Dabo and Lori Valo. What is the responsibility of Mormon church leaders in 2021? And I meant that as kind of a segue to your closing argument, Lauren, so please take that away. Oh, no. Okay, okay. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [03:29:04] Our, our last podcast. Podcast is an interview with a woman named Dr. Christine. She's a convert to the church. She converted at age 18. Her parents didn't want her to. To convert and she did. So she waited till she was 18 and she wanted to live this.

Lauren Matthias [03:29:24] You know, she's, as she says, the good stuff, the families are forever, the marriage, the. The Mormon dream. And after some time in the church, she was manipulated by a false prophet and found herself. I mean, you'll have to listen to the whole episode, but she was sex trafficked. She was asked to adopt her children, to give her children away.

Lauren Matthias [03:29:52] She was in some need of some serious help and mental health. She was suicidal. She had nothing. And when she went to police in Utah, law enforcement, to tell them their story, they pretty much said there was nothing they could do because they don't deal with fringe movements. And she was in a fringe religion.

Lauren Matthias [03:30:13] And what they were dealing with wasn't sex trafficking or, you know, a victim. They were dealing with an offshoot, you know, cult type thing that wasn't really their, you know, that's not what they did. And so she was responsible. And I think that plays a good part into what you're saying is, do we need to address this more? This, this isn't. Chad D. And Lori Valow aren't their own thing. You know, this, this happens again and again and again. And do we need to take more ownership? You know, should those police officers have been able to say, let us help you? And it wasn't just police officers.

Lauren Matthias [03:30:53] She went to the church headquarters and told her story. And they said, oh, yeah, we've been hearing a lot of warnings about this guy who she had met at a singles dance. She had Just been divorced. And she thought, well, why did you let him into the dance?

Lauren Matthias [03:31:06] Why are you not telling people this? Why are, you know, she said, I didn't know I was a convert. You know, he told me he had, he had written the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. You know, I believe in Joseph Smith. I believed in, you know, prophets. Why was I supposed to, you know, stop there? Because, you know, a lot of people thought she was dumb, you know, but she said, where do you draw the line? So, like, where do these beliefs begin and end?

Lauren Matthias [03:31:31] And I think that plays a really important point into what you're saying is there's a lot of this and there's a lot more of this now because of the Internet too, and these beliefs. And I do think they need to take some responsibility and we need to talk about it, and we need to take some ownership of Mormonism. And I say Mormonism when I mean Mormonism. I mean Mormonism, not just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but Mormonism, as in all the offshoot groups, as in those wonderful women, Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs and the wonderful women who I got to know as a reporter in Hildale in Colorado City.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:04] I, I got to know them. They're wonderful, you know, good people who are doing what they believe is right. And I think, I think that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints needs to take more ownership of Mormonism, if that makes sense. And all of these ASH groups and what they mean, because these beliefs all. It's. It's a giant Venn diagram, right? And where do these people know where it ends and where it begins?

Lauren Matthias [03:32:27] So that's the first part of your question. And I think last week I brought up how Rexburg, the city of Rexburg, is struggling. This is a community that's 90% Mormon or LDS. It's where Eric Smith lives. It's where Chad Daba lived. It's where the Preparing the People founders moved. It's where a lot of people are, and it's where a lot of the preppers are and avow's headquarters, where BYU Idaho is. And there is so much confusion there. People tell me they don't know who to talk to, they don't know who believes what. It's really confusing. And the church is not speaking out about it. They haven't mentioned Chad Daybell's name or Lori Valo's name, and more importantly, they have not mentioned Tyler Ryan or JJ's name.

Lauren Matthias [03:33:14] And, and I, I specified Tylee. And the reason I did is JJ is 7. He wasn't yet baptized a member of the church and he was adopted. So I don't even know if he received a blessing. I don't know if he's a child of record. So the church can do all they want and, you know, dismiss jj. I'm not saying they should, and that's cruel, but I'm just saying Tyler Ryan is a baptized member of the church. Her background on her Facebook page is a temple. This girl loved her church and her faith, and she was dedicated. And the church has not mentioned her name at all.

Lauren Matthias [03:33:44] And that makes me angry. You know, when Elizabeth Smart was missing, they did daily news conferences on church property to try to get her back. When Tyler Ryan went missing, mute. Because the church didn't want to be associated with these crazy beliefs. That's why, you know, from a PR perspective, they didn't want to touch Chad Dabel's beliefs with a 10 foot pole. That's not us. But here is a. Here is an LDS girl who's missing and who has no one, not even her family, because her mother's responsible for her death. And they're not saying anything.

Lauren Matthias [03:34:15] But in addition to that, Rexburg is suffering. These good people of Rexburg, they're such wonderful people. They're such righteous, you know, wanting to do what is right. Have lived this their whole life. You know, born in lds, dedicated, service oriented people. And they are so confused and the church isn't saying anything. I brought up a story that Heather Daybell allowed me to share. Heather Daybell has become my close friend since this case. She is Chad Daybell's sister in law, lives right by Chad.

Lauren Matthias [03:34:44] She was Stake Relief Society president at the time. And when Dieter Uchtdorf came up right after the children's bodies were found, she thought, finally they're gonna talk about our community crisis and my crisis. And they didn't say anything. All they did was talk about missionary work.

John Dehlin [03:35:02] This prepper nonsense. Stop the Second Coming nonsense. Stop the personal revelation nonsense. Stop all the. All the foot zoning and the energy work nonsense. What an opportunity to say all this stuff, all this prepper garbage and spiritualism needs to end.

Lauren Matthias [03:35:20] To give them direction. To give them direction, right? This needs to end. This isn't right. You know, I heard from somebody else after I shared that story last week. A Rexburg resident. I've heard from quite a few. And she said, you know, I remember when they visited, everyone was surprised. They came up unannounced. And we thought for sure they were there to talk about the Daybell Situation, we thought for sure, sure. She's like now, I think they were just trying to figure out what was going on there. But they, you know, they met in secret with bishops and they didn't. They didn't say anything to us.

Lauren Matthias [03:35:50] But one of the most profound messages I've received about this crisis, and it is a crisis in Rexburg and throughout the prepper community about where do these beliefs begin and where do they end, you know, and. And the church isn't saying anything.

Lauren Matthias [03:36:06] I received a message from a grandmother in Rexburg, and. And it was long, but she's. She has given me permission to read this particular part of the message without any identifying information. One thing I want to preface this too, is she said that she's not. She's in Rexburg.

Mindy Caldwell [03:36:26] She's.

Lauren Matthias [03:36:26] She's not. She doesn't know anyone in the case. But when she talks to people in town, she doesn't know what parts of Chad Daybell's beliefs they believe. She said, I believe that half the people I run into maybe believe part of it. Right. Whether it's part of the two tier or the two tier one. According to Eric Smith, she says, I'm not connected, but this is what I feel going out every day and talking to people in my ward. I don't understand. And she says this. So this is a woman Rexburg, a grandmother in Rexburg.

Lauren Matthias [03:37:02] You spoke the truth when you said Rexburg, where I live is hurting. I consider myself very balanced with a strong testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a devoted love for the church. At least that was me before Chad Daybell. I have had and continue to have a crisis of faith. I, too, long for the church to step up and acknowledge that many of us are victims of Chad's teachings. And we need the brethren to address the elephant in the room about which they have yet to even acknowledge. Their silence is deafening to many of us with heavy hearts concerning the bastardization that Chad Daybell imposed on so many things that were previously so sacred to us.

Lauren Matthias [03:37:44] Everything that I've embraced about the church is getting more and more sullied. I am not sure what I believe anymore. Now here is the reason I'm reaching out to you, Lauren. Please do not let this matter go unexplored. The church is failing many of us who live in the midst of these evil teachings. We do not know who to trust with our conversations and beliefs anymore. And it hurts. Please do not get this. Do not let this get swept under the prayer rug.

Lauren Matthias [03:38:12] And I think that that sums it up like this. When I set out to. When we set out to cover this case and discover the hidden motives, we had no idea, you know, the layers of the onion we would, you know, unpeel and where it would lead us.

Lauren Matthias [03:38:29] But I think one thing that I feel I need to tackle as a return missionary and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the church does need to step up. People are hurting, and I really, really hope that they mentioned these children's names.

Lauren Matthias [03:38:48] They. I mean, they just. These were not the perpetrators. They didn't believe those wild beliefs that their murderers believe, but they. They went to church. They're the church. You know, they. They were members of the church, and they need us. And this should be about the victims. And there are so many victims.

Mindy Caldwell [03:39:12] They're.

Lauren Matthias [03:39:12] Tyler and JJ are, you know, the most horrendous victims. But the entire city of Rexburg and this entire prepper movement is in deep need of guidance and for the brethren to step up. And I want to say that.

John Dehlin [03:39:30] Beautiful.

Mindy Caldwell [03:39:30] Very well said, Lauren. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:39:33] And it's just Robbie says, and Charles and Tammy, too, are victims. Right?

Lauren Matthias [03:39:37] Charles and Tammy, too. I bring the children up specifically because I feel like they had, you know, no one to speak for them. You know, the children are the most innocent of all the victims because they couldn't have even ran away. You know, they. They were killed by those that were supposed to protect them. But Tammy Daybell and Charles Vallow, too, and anyone else that is their victim we don't know about. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:40:05] Well, I have a final thing I want to say. But. But. But Dr. John. Lauren, that was beautiful, too. Thank you so much, Both Lauren and Dr. John, your summations are just so powerful and so beautiful. Any final words from you guys about this? And then we're going to plug your stuff after I make a closing comment. Then we'll have Mindy, and then I'll make a closing comment. Anything else, Dr. John or Lauren?

John Matthias [03:40:29] I think. I think I'm good. Okay. Just hear from you, John.

John Dehlin [03:40:33] Mindy, you want to have a final thing before I say one final thing, and then we'll plug their stuff.

Mindy Caldwell [03:40:37] I think what Lauren has said is a good ending.

John Dehlin [03:40:42] Okay. Beautiful. Well, I'll just say that, you know, just this morning, I got a link from a woman named Jimmy Hepworth, who. Jamie Hepworth, who read a letter to Elder Nelson. She comes across as a believing Mormon, and she talks about how not to mix issues, but she just talks about how, you know, the vaccine is evil and the vaccine is super bad. The COVID 19 vaccine and how personal revelation sort of dictates that. And she, she's, she self identifies as a prepper here. And I just want to sort of extend what you're saying, Lauren. There's a really big problem here within the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [03:41:19] The church is already hemorrhaging on the left with people who learn about the history, who are maybe a little bit more learned about the church history, maybe who are more sensitive to social justice issues like women's issues and LGBT issues. There's obviously a mass exodus going on in the church on the left hand side. And what the church is also experiencing is this growing with the Bundys and the prepper movement, this growing prepper movement on the right of people not feeling edified.

John Dehlin [03:41:47] And if ever we needed prophet seers and revelators to step up, along with the lack of people willing to even get vaccinated in the state of Utah and all the deaths that are occurring in Utah, Arizona, Idaho that are led by orthodox believing Mormons or ultra orthodox believing Mormons. I just want to echo what you said, Lauren, that there is a significant problem. We need Mormon church leaders to step up. They can end this. They can make it really clear what's wrong, what's outside the bounds and clean up this mess that Joseph Smith started, frankly. And so I just want to echo what you said, Lauren, and just say, please, Mormon church leaders, you've got a pulpit this weekend, a general conference coming up.

John Dehlin [03:42:33] You're going to be speaking to the entire membership. What an amazing opportunity to address this growing prepper movement and shut it down before there are more deaths and before there's more people dying of not being vaccinated or these crazy, these unhealthy beliefs that are leading, they're breaking up families and are leading to all sorts of unhealthy outcomes. Please, Mormon church leaders, please stop this.

John Dehlin [03:42:58] Okay, that's my, that's my final plea. And people can decide if we made a decent case or not. The way that I wanted to end, Dr. John and Lauren is for you guys plugging the heck. Because I want to say, Dr. John, your psychological insight is so powerful and valuable.

Mindy Caldwell [03:43:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:43:18] And Lauren, your journalistic skills and determined determination and doggedness there are just, what a powerful one, two, punch. You guys are doing amazing work. We're so grateful for your amazing work. Mindy, you've gotta, I mean, you gotta feel similarly. I know you've been following us really closely.

Mindy Caldwell [03:43:37] I feel like I've just been gushing about these guys. I. To Anyone that will listen to me, it's just. You guys know I'm a huge fan, but I cannot recommend their content enough. I mean, I'm excited to see where, where their venture will go. I mean, it's, it's been really fascinating to see them cover the, the Dabel Valo case, but they've also done a lot of really interesting stuff, kind of talking about Gabby Petito and some other. Some other crime cases. So I think, I think they are a dynamic duo and I'm excited to see. I'm glad that they're getting exposure and I'm excited to see where they, where they go. We were one of the. We were. We knew them at the beginning before they got before.

John Dehlin [03:44:22] You guys are world famous stars.

Lauren Matthias [03:44:26] So, Mindy, we still need your show notes.

Mindy Caldwell [03:44:29] Oh, I'll send them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:44:32] And Mindy, you've been amazing. Thank you, John, it was been a pleasure. It was fun to hear our expert guests sometimes defer to you for your expertise. So you're.

Mindy Caldwell [03:44:41] I don't know about that, but we

John Dehlin [03:44:43] hope you'll come back.

Mindy Caldwell [03:44:44] I would love to. Yeah. It's been, it's hard. It's hard to say it's been fun because it's so sad to talk about, you know, such deep topics, but I do, I do enjoy hearing different perspectives and I'm just so grateful that other people have such knowledge in different areas. And that enriches me and helps me to learn more and gets me curious to study more. So thank you.

John Dehlin [03:45:10] So plug the heck out of your stuff, guys.

John Matthias [03:45:13] I, I just want to say I'll, I'll let Lauren do that, but I just want to say thank you too. It's been a real honor to be on here and to be invited on here, and we have such respect for your work, John. So thank you for having us. And, you know, we're just, we're doing our best to. I think we're, we're, we're, you know, it's a different world to us, or especially me. Maybe not Lauren so much as a reporter, but, but our goal is to really, you know, try to make a difference. And sometimes on YouTube, that's a tricky thing because there's such sensationalism out there. But we hope to stay the course and provide some illumination and education and insight if we can. And we're really honored to be able to do that. So hopefully we can make a difference in the true crime community and here today. So thanks again.

Mindy Caldwell [03:46:10] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:11] Our podcast is Hidden, a true crime podcast. And it's Found everywhere, Spotify, Google, Apple. And we appreciate the reviews we've received, especially since appearing last week on Mormon Stories. They, they mean a lot. You know how, how much those mean. John de Lynn and so you can get those, those podcasts anywhere. You get your podcasts Hidden A True Crime podcast. And then we started a YouTube channel after our podcast where we have a lot of those interviews that you've played. It's Hidden True Crime. In addition to some things on the Gabby Petito case that we've been discussing, we really wanted to bring the focus to domestic violence.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:54] And Dr. John has worked a lot with the domestic violence victims and feels we, we really wanted to jump on the Gabby Petito case just to bring awareness to that. And we're working right now on getting some of the interviews you showed tonight onto our podcast. And we have a few more, I think four more episodes outlined on the Daybell case that will be coming. And, and then we have season two in the makes as well. So that's what we're doing. And we, we appreciate the support. Like you, John, we're donation based right now. You know, hopefully one day we get a sponsor. But we have a Patreon account as well with some on some in some episodes with Dr. John and an Ask Dr. John series on our Patreon account as well for those that help us and support us.

John Dehlin [03:47:52] Yeah, right there. Yes, there's your Patreon account, Hidden True Crime. And we, we need more people signing up for the, for the behind the scenes premium content. Right?

Lauren Matthias [03:48:04] Exactly, exactly.

Mindy Caldwell [03:48:05] TABLE and they'll just like turn a phone on and record and just listening to them chat just organically. It's been some of my favorite content. It's just, it's cool.

Lauren Matthias [03:48:15] Thank you, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [03:48:17] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [03:48:18] So people can donate to you by supporting your Patreon. Is that the main way?

John Matthias [03:48:21] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [03:48:22] Okay. And it's affordable. So please support these guys with your support, everybody, with your links, with your subscribes, with your follows, telling other people word of mouth and by signing up on Patreon.

Mindy Caldwell [03:48:35] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:48:36] And if they want to give you guys tips or clues, how do they reach you?

Lauren Matthias [03:48:40] Hidden true crime gmail.com thank you for saying that. We started this out. It's been an adventure. We always say, you know, it's a developing podcast because of the tips and the sources that we get. And if you have something to tell us, we welcome it. And our, our email is hidden true crime gmail.com and our website, our website

John Matthias [03:49:05] will be coming soon and we'll have a contact form where people can. Can send us tips or information or let us know if they want to talk.

John Dehlin [03:49:16] I love it.

Mindy Caldwell [03:49:16] Great.

John Dehlin [03:49:17] I love it. All right, well, this has been so fabulous. Thank you, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [03:49:21] You're Welcome.

John Dehlin [03:49:22] Thank you, Dr. John and Lauren. Thanks to all our listeners and viewers. We had amazing comments. If you guys want to watch the live stream back, you can see the comments as they come in.

Lauren Matthias [03:49:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:49:34] For fun. Yeah, no, but you guys as well as, as listeners, people that are joining us. So thanks to all. Thanks to all you who support Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations make this possible. So if you are a donor to the Open Stories foundation or Mormon Stories, thank you. Thanks to everyone who donates to the super chat feature on YouTube. And if you're not a donor yet, you can literally go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll do this for as long as you guys support us. And our money goes to support Kara and Gerardo and Brooklyn and all the equipment and bandwidth and editing and all the things you see. That's where your support goes. So please support us if you can. All right, guys, thank you so much.

John Matthias [03:50:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:50:22] Please come back again and stay in touch.

John Matthias [03:50:24] Okay, well, thank you. We'd love to.

John Dehlin [03:50:27] And Mormon Church leaders, you. You may not feel responsible for what's happened, but you can end a lot of what's happening by. By teaching your members better critical thinking skills and to teach them that these types of actions and beliefs and behaviors are unacceptable. So systems, not people, Mormon Church, please teach your members to stop these types of behaviors and cut off this damaging wing of Mormonism, frankly, before more people pass away. Love you guys. Thanks so much.

John Matthias [03:50:58] Stay in touch and we'll see you

John Dehlin [03:51:00] guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

Lauren Matthias [03:51:03] We'll do. Bye. Bye.

John Matthias [03:51:04] Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.