Introducing Janae Thompson and Her Story

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1755

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. Today we have a really fascinating and compelling story for you. We are going to be answering the question what happens when you jump on the Mormon train, get married, have kids and your spouse dies? We're going to be talking about the grief of that. We're also going to be talking about Mormon church's temple sealing policies and how they differ from for men than women and what that means for you in this case as a Mormon woman who's trying to date again as a widow Mormon woman and what, how that impacts your dating opportunities and what your dating experiences are. There's also going to be faith journey stuff here and just a really compelling Mormon story. Joining me in studio as my partner in truth and righteousness is Margi. Hey, Margi. Hey. Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:56] Yes, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] And our guest for today is a woman who, I don't know, who knows Janae or not, but it's Janee Thompson. And I met Janae at a Stephen Hasson thrive event last week and she has a really cool story. But just as a side of interest, she owns and runs a apparently very popular YouTube channel called the King of Random or TKOR. Has like 12 million subscribers at this point. But that's just kind of a fun little thing to note about Jenae, A little side, but. Janae Thompson, welcome to Warmer Stories podcast.

Janae Thompson [00:01:35] Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Yeah, well, we're excited to have you. Anything you want to correct about the introduction?

Janae Thompson [00:01:41] No, I think you got it. The YouTube channel is a fun side note in our family. And, you know, other than that, we're a regular family and we do the day to day stuff and I have four kids and life is crazy and amazing and it's a science channel. So there's a lot of things that my kids like to try to emulate on that channel. So we've had, you know, some explosions and fires that are inappropriate for children my age. But my, my kids age, but other than that, we're surviving.

Grant Thompson and the King of Random Channel

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Should we mention your late husband? Will people even know his name is, was he kind of a known person?

Janae Thompson [00:02:14] Yeah, yeah, he was. Yeah. Grant Thompson is my late husband and he and I created the King of Random about ten plus years ago.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] Okay. All right. Well, this is obviously really sensitive stuff, but really important stuff. You came to me and shared with me your story and briefly and I'm just like, yeah, this is a story we need to tell really quickly. Would it make sense for you to Kind of start with an intention. Obviously, we want believers to watch this. Obviously, your family is going to hear about this. And there's always kind of like, whoa, you know, you talked about the church, you know, publicly. That means you must hate it or want to tear it down or take people's faith away or so. Lots of assumptions.

Janae Thompson [00:03:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] What would you like to share about your intentions to start?

Janae Thompson [00:03:05] Yeah. So this is kind of. I mean, this is really near and dear to my heart because this is a story of a journey. And, you know, what happens when in life you start asking questions and they're the hard questions, and then, you know, do you have the courage to listen to what the answers are and be open to the truth, whether or not it's, you know, supporting what you have believed your whole life?

Janae Thompson [00:03:31] And, you know, I've always felt like faith is one of those things that when life tests your faith, it comes through, and if it doesn't, then that's a whole new story. And so my intention is just to kind of just share where I've been and, you know, how I got to this place and where I'm at now, because, you know, life is a journey, and I'm in this place now. And I love to have the ability to share that and just have understanding with people that, you know, I really love and care about.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Yeah. And. And I imagine it's excruciating to have four young kids and to lose a spouse. And so I'm sure there's a lot of people out there, if they're in a similar situation, who might feel like they may not make it. I don't know.

Janae Thompson [00:04:18] Yeah. And I think it's a hard thing to ask. You know, death is a really personal experience, and it's different for everybody. And when it happens inside of a family where it's one of those deaths that's unexpected and kind of you look at that and you're like, oh, my gosh, I hope that never happens to me. I would never have expected that. It's hard to engage with those people in that grief space and process and know what to say and how to, like, relate, because it's kind of one of those things where you're like, oh, I just don't know what to do. So I'll create distance, and then that creates isolation, and it's like you want to connect, but you don't know how.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:55] Such a good point.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Yeah. Well, thank you for being willing to share your story. So let's do it. Let's jump in. Where does Your Mormon story begin, Jena Thompson.

Growing Up in a Devoted Mormon Family

Janae Thompson [00:05:04] Well, I guess it begins on the day I was born in 1982. I was born into a really wonderful family. My parents were both born into the church. My grandparents on my mom's side were also born into the church. My grandparents on my dad's side. One was a convert and immigrant from Denmark, so he was the convert, and then. Yeah, we were very, you know, close as a family growing up. Religion was, you know, the center of our families, the center of our culture. So, you know, I did all the things. I was blessed as a baby.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Real quick, where. Where did your parents kind of set up shop? Citywise or.

Janae Thompson [00:05:50] Yes. So they met in Provo at byu. At byu.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:05:56] And then they set up. They bought their first house in West Valley. My mom's from California. My dad grew up in Provo.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:06:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Okay. And so they set up in West Valley.

Janae Thompson [00:06:08] Yes. That's the first home they bought.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Okay. And you're of how many kids?

Janae Thompson [00:06:14] So I have four. There's four of us. And I'm the oldest of the four.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] Oh, so you're the oldest. So were you born in that West Valley house?

Janae Thompson [00:06:21] Yes, I was. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:06:22] Yep. And then. And then they kind of upgraded to a bigger house in another part of West Valley, and I was there Till I was 12, and then we built a house in Harriman.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Okay. Are you able to share what your dad or mom's professions were?

Janae Thompson [00:06:39] Yes, I come from a long line of school teachers. So my mom was a school teacher. Her parents were school teachers. She does special ed, and she's amazingly talented, and she did a lot of esl, so she worked with the kids that were learning English and had, you know, special education needs. And then my dad, he worked for a corporation for a little while, and then he started his own business doing real estate, and so he does that still.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] So, I mean, there's a heavy education bent to tkor. So you get that from your mom?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:10] Yes.

Janae Thompson [00:07:10] And growing up there, I mean, as much as it was, we go to church every Sunday. It was these children. You children will get a bachelor's degree. It was never, like, a question. And it wasn't this, like, commanding thing. It was just like, yeah, when you go to college and get your degree, what are you gonna do? Or what are you gonna study? It was just always. So all four of us have college degrees. I'm the only one that doesn't have a higher degree than a bachelor's. All my siblings have master's degrees. And so, yeah, that was definitely Like, a very important value for my parents.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] So how Mormony was your Mormon home when you were under 10?

Janae Thompson [00:07:46] Let's just say it was very Mormony. It was everything. I mean, we did the whole thing. You know, we did the scriptures in prayer at night, and everybody was complaining and fighting while we're trying to read. And we did family home evening, and, you know, we definitely went to church every Sunday, non negotiable. When we went on vacations, we would find a chapel and we would, you know, meet the people there and go to church there. And when we. When I was ending high school, we went on a family church history tour. We went to New York, and so we saw Palmyra, and we went to Ohio and Kirtland and, you know, all those things.

Janae Thompson [00:08:24] And we were on the road for, like, a month. And it was such a fun trip, and it was so amazing to see all the, you know, places where some of these church history events took place that I had, you know, learned about my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Okay, so it sounds like a traditional, idyllic Mormon childhood.

Janae Thompson [00:08:40] Yeah, I would say it was idyllic. I. I mean, we were happy most of the time. I mean, our family wasn't perfect. You know, my parents yelled at us sometimes still, but, you know, there was never anything where I felt, like, afraid or, you know, like, I just felt really safe growing up, and I felt like my community supported us. And my parents were really loving, and, you know, I generally liked my siblings and, you know, like, we got along fairly well. We had our sibling fights. Nothing like the way my boys fight now. But, you know, I only have boys, and I think that my sister and I were a little less aggressive than my boys, and my brothers were not. You know, I mean, they were just a little more lower energy. And so I felt like we, for the most part, got along really well.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] And how do you. What do you. How do you reflect on your. The Mormon aspects of your childhood in terms of, like, church and the hymns and primary and your relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Scriptures.

Janae Thompson [00:09:39] And so my mom always had the calling of the primary chorister, and she just loved it. Like, she would just get into the songs, and she'd make all these beautiful, like, posters and. And she'd teach it with this, like, you know, just such a. This love that she had for music. And so I remember being in primary, my mom was always the chorister, so she'd always be teaching us the songs. And I'd kind of already, like, watched her go through all the, you know, Visual aids that she made. And so I really liked singing time because my mom was there and she loved it so much.

Janae Thompson [00:10:12] And I really love music. And so that's another part of just. It was a good connection that I had with the music growing up. And it's funny, like, going back in my memory, like, remembering these times. It's like, yeah, that was really nice. And then the rest of it, I remember just feeling like I was kind of checked out. Like, this is really boring. I don't know what everybody's talking about. I just want to go home.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] So doctrinally and theologically, not so into it as a kid. But musically.

Janae Thompson [00:10:39] As a kid.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] But musically, yes.

Janae Thompson [00:10:41] Yes. As a kid, I just. I would listen and, you know, I would absorb everything that was being taught to me. It wasn't super important to me. It just was. It was the way the world worked. It was the reality. It was the truth about everything. And so I just kind of. It was just there, and I just accepted it.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] Okay. Anything else about your childhood, years before we go to adolescence that are important, Your story?

Janae Thompson [00:11:07] No, I think. I mean, it was. I finally got a baby sister when I was eight. So I was really excited about that.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Oh, your second sister came at eight.

Janae Thompson [00:11:17] So my. So she's the youngest, I'm the oldest, and there's two brothers in between us. So I was just really excited to get a sister. And that was, you know, like, amazing, because she was born and I was getting baptized, and it was like, this really just fun space to be in, to be growing up and then get a baby sister.

Shame, Worthiness, and Mormon Adolescence

Margi Dehlin [00:11:37] I have a quick question about if you happen to remember or reflect, just reflecting now, Are there certain messages that you either showed up in your childhood that drove you forward, either about yourself or. Or the world or families or, you know, kind of became a plant from which you.

Janae Thompson [00:12:00] Yeah, I think the message that I was really special, like, that message really drove this culture in my mind that I created around, you know, this group that I was a part of, my family in the church, that I was just really special and chosen because I had the truth. And, you know, not everybody had that opportunity. And so I just remember feeling like, wow, I don't know why I get this opportunity. And, you know, so many people don't, but I just remember feeling really special and that it was a huge blessing and responsibility and that, like, in some ways, I was more privileged than a lot of the world.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] All right, well, let's jump to your adolescence. Let's talk about your Mormon adolescence. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:52] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:12:52] I was a little bit the black sheep in my family, because everybody really was by the book with the culture and going to church and everything that was taught. And when I hit about 13, I was like, I kind of want to explore the world. And my parents will tell you I snuck out of the house at night.

Janae Thompson [00:13:11] I never did anything that was bad, but I just wanted to explore. So I'd sneak out and go out with my friends and we'd just walk around. And, um. And then my neighbors would tell my parents that their daughter was sneaking out of the window.

Janae Thompson [00:13:27] So that's how I found out they knew. And I remember one time I wanted to. This is just an adolescent story. Before I started dating, I wanted to go snowboarding with a boy. And I wasn't 16. And, you know, the rule is you no dating till you're 16. They were super. My parents were very strict on that. And they didn't want to even let me go to this dance, like, two weeks before my birthday. They did end up letting me go, which I was really grateful for. Like, I'm 16, like, in two weeks. It's the same as two weeks now, two weeks later. But it was a fight to go to this homecoming dance as a 16 year old.

Janae Thompson [00:14:02] And so just prior to that, I wanted to go snowboarding with this friend. He was a boy. And my parents were like, no, that's a date. I'm like, no, we're just friends. Like, I just want to go with this friend. And so, you know, I was asked to pray about it and then whatever answer I got, you know, go with that. And I was like, oh, yeah, I prayed about it. God said, yes, it's great.

Janae Thompson [00:14:26] Think God's supportive of me, you know, so that was the approach that, you know, like, was taken. And I was like, yeah, I'll do that.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Oops, we.

Janae Thompson [00:14:34] Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I think God would want me to go snow skiing with my friend. And whether I actually prayed about it or not, I honestly don't remember. I think I probably did. And I was like, yeah, I think it's fine. So they. And they did honor that and they let me go. Which I appreciate that ability for my parents to say, okay, here's the choice. And I. In my mind, I think they know, you know, you're gonna feel like it's not the right thing to do. Maybe, maybe not. But when I was like, no, I think it's fine, and they were like, yeah, okay, you can go. I appreciated that. And, you know, I felt like I did have a Choice, which was really nice as a teenager.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Okay, so you were adventure adventurous, but not crazy. Not.

Janae Thompson [00:15:18] Not crazy.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Okay. And how did your testimony develop into your teen years? Yeah, And I always ask shame in the church, you know, bishops interviews, and shame is such a part of so many Mormons people's story. I'm also curious if that entered into your story.

Janae Thompson [00:15:41] Yeah, yeah, it definitely did. I think during the teenage years, I was a. I was. I was kind of removed from it. Again, I just wasn't super interested in it. It was just the way we did life. And I. I didn't have a strong desire to, like, look deeply into other than anything other than what I was kind of just taught at church.

Janae Thompson [00:16:01] And I liked it. I always felt good at church. You know, it felt like a safe place, and it was what I knew. So it was our routine. But as far as, like, doctrinally, I didn't really have any interest in going deep into the doctrine.

Janae Thompson [00:16:16] And then as I, you know, continued to grow up and progress just in my development as a human and, like, starting to date and, you know, go out with boys. And I was pretty conservative with the guys. Like, I didn't. I wasn't super interested in dating, but I'd go out, you know, when I was asked out, and I had fun. We liked the group thing a little bit more. But I do remember there was a heavy emphasis on, you know, physical affection as teenagers. And there was a lot in young women's around, you know, do this, don't do this.

Janae Thompson [00:16:50] This is appropriate. This is not appropriate. And me as a kid, like, in my home environment, you know, like, those were not things we talked about. And so I was really trying to figure out, like, okay, you know, here's what I'm learning at school, here's what I'm learning at church. These are more taboo subjects with, you know, family. So, like, how do I navigate this?

Janae Thompson [00:17:11] And, you know, I just remember, like, making out with this guy and then, you know, feeling, like, super, super guilty. And, like, you know, I'm gonna, like, I probably need to talk to my bishop. Like, I'm not sure what to do now. And. And I remember, like, writing about it in my journal, just feeling, like, so shameful.

Janae Thompson [00:17:33] And, you know, and we hadn't done anything, you know, beyond, like, making out and, you know, just like, maybe some heavy, like, not pet, but just, like, you know, kids making out. And so I was like, oh, I think I need to talk to my bishop. And I was just so scared, too, because I thought I was going to get in trouble. And I remember thinking I was in the church, and I was like, well, if the bishop comes up and asks me how I'm doing and, you know, wants to talk to me, then, you know, I'll. I'll tell him. And so I'm, like, sitting there in the hall, and I'm kind of waiting around for classes start or whatever, and the bishop comes up to me.

Janae Thompson [00:18:07] He's like, janae, it's so good to see you. I want to talk to you. Will you come to my office? And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, you know, God is, like, taking me right to what I need because I clearly have to confess this. And so I went in, you know, and I was like, yeah, I made out with this boy, and he was just kind of smiling and, you know, and he was. He asked for some details, and, you know, I gave him some details, which I was like, I don't really want to talk about this, but, you know, like, I'm going through the whole process.

Janae Thompson [00:18:35] And he's like, yeah, you're still worthy. And I was like, oh, okay. Phew. I'm still worthy. That was a close one. You know, like, I just remember thinking, like, how do I live life and be in this culture and in this church and, like, not do things that I feel like are kind of, like, par for the development course? Because I felt like I shouldn't be kissing boys.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] You know, you want to hear that a bishop gives you that answer that you're worthy, even if you've, quote, messed up according to the law of chastity. But there's. Because it'd be worse if he said you're unworthy. And that's a lot of people that we talk to. But I'm realizing there's a problem with just him saying that you're worthy, because it's still him declaring that he has the right to evaluate what your worthiness is before God. That he is. He's allowed to assess it and ultimately gets to make that decision. That feels problematic, now that I think about it.

Janae Thompson [00:19:37] Yeah. And in that moment, you know, when I. When I had that conversation with him, I felt like, oh, okay, I'm okay. Like, I'm not damned, you know, like, I'm not gonna go to hell. And it's because he said that. It's not because I felt like I'm making a lot of good choices in my life. It's not because I felt like I'm exploring relationships, and it's not because I felt like I'm doing Really well, in these thousands of aspects in my life, it's this one thing that I focused in on, and I'm like, I think I did something wrong, and therefore I will be damned forever.

Janae Thompson [00:20:07] But then he said, you're okay. But also, there was no direction beyond that. It wasn't like, well, don't do it again, or like, even if it's like, well, you know, that's a natural part of growing up, is to want to, like, explore and kiss a boy and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, I mean, I walked out of there thinking, like, okay, if I just never do it again, then I'll be fine. Which that led to a lot of uncertainty the older I got.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:34] Yeah. I think also inherent in that question and what goes on oftentimes in Bishop's office is this idea, too, of just like you said, like, oh, am I worthy? And it's kind of like we go outside of ourselves to have the judgment of like, oh. And he said, I am. So I am. But it starts that kind of pattern of looking to someone else to give us what, optimally we would want to develop inside ourselves.

Janae Thompson [00:21:06] Yeah. And one of the things I love the most about my life is I feel complete stewardship, if you will, around my value and my worthiness of being a woman and a mother. And it just is so empowering now to feel like I can I make that decision versus someone outside of me.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:28] I was gonna actually do a follow up. If you were gonna think about that time in your life, how would you have talked about where you felt worthy or where your value came from? Do you remember how you felt valuable or how you felt worthy?

Janae Thompson [00:21:47] A hundred percent I felt valuable and worthy based on what I did. And it was, you know, if you do good things, you're better, and if you do bad things, you're. You need help.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:00] You need.

Janae Thompson [00:22:00] You know, you're not as valuable, and you've got to move from that space back into the, you know, valuable space. So it was never like, you're worthless now, but it was like, you're not where you could should be, and you're not reaching your potential. And so that needs to change. So inherently, I feel like, okay, that needs to change, which means I'm not good where I'm at.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:21] Yeah. And so if I were gonna ask, particularly with, like, within Young Women's and the messages that you got within the Young Women's program, where would you. What were the messages around where you felt valuable and worthy that way? And then I have a question. Within your family just to see if they're the same or if they were a little bit different.

Janae Thompson [00:22:41] Yeah, I think. I mean, my biggest memory of young women's is I loved being around the girls my age for the most part. And then I remember the. What is it? The thing you'd say over and over.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:53] What's that called?

Janae Thompson [00:22:54] The theme?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:55] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:22:56] I just remember thinking, like, within that theme. I don't remember the words exactly, and I know it's kind of changed a little bit now, but, like, we make and keep sacred covenants and, you know, like, I just remember every time I would repeat that, I would be like, what does that really mean? And what am I really getting into? Because I. I'm saying this over and over and I don't know what it means and I don't even know what that is. So, like, I know I have to do this thing, but there's not clarity around what it is, and it sounds really big and important. And what if I don't do it? Like, what if I fail at this thing I'm repeating over and over?

Margi Dehlin [00:23:34] Yeah. And then would you say that your family culture valued similar things to the young women's theme and the messages you were getting at church or. It sounds like they had an education emphasis, and that's an area maybe of a little bit of difference.

Janae Thompson [00:23:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:52] But where did you feel valuable?

Janae Thompson [00:23:54] At home, definitely. In school and academics and church activity. I would say those were the top things that were emphasized as these are the accomplishments and the achievements that we want to put as central.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Cool. So let's just say for those high school years, any important elements to your Mormon story? You know, I guess I do want to hear what for those, especially for those who have never been Mormon, kind of what were you taught was the life you were supposed to be living? You know, what were you supposed to work towards as a Mormon woman? What should your goals have been? How much did you internalize that and kind of the. I call it the train, but like the life that the church and that your parents probably wanted you to pursue, what did you perceive that ideal to be and how much were you bought into it?

Fully Committed to the Church Before College

Janae Thompson [00:24:58] Yeah, so I would say I was bought into it 100%.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] What was it first?

Janae Thompson [00:25:02] Yeah. As far as what it was, it was like, okay, we go through school, we get good grades, we go to college. My mom was actually a working mom. She worked most of our growing up years as a school teacher, and she chose that profession for a lot of reasons. But one of the reasons was that she could, you know, be working when we were in school and be home when we were home and have the same days off as us. And it was this culture of, you know, there's a huge emphasis on prioritizing motherhood.

Janae Thompson [00:25:32] And for my mom to not lose that priority, she chose a profession that matched with it. And so I kind of thought, well, that's probably what I'll do too, because I want to, you know, I want to be a mom. And I was definitely taught and believed that, you know, over and over again, I kept hearing, motherhood is the most important job you will ever have.

Janae Thompson [00:25:59] And no other success can compensate for failure in the home, especially with mothers. And so in my mind, I had these two values being given. You know, one is education and one is motherhood. And so this. This was a challenge as I went to college because I was like, well, I want to be a mom, so do I really need to go to college? And I like to learn, so I want to go to college, but what should I study?

Janae Thompson [00:26:22] And so that affected me in a lot of ways because I didn't have a clear direction on what I wanted to study, because at first I wanted to, like, a chemistry undergrad and then go to either dental school or med school. But then I was thinking, if I do that, you know, that's 12 to 15 years of school, and if I get married and have a baby, am I going to want to continue to do that?

Janae Thompson [00:26:45] And so at the time, I was doing, like, a chemistry type thing, but then I changed it to exercise physiology because I was like, well, then if I quit, I can, you know, still be in the physical, you know, therapy type. I could be a personal trainer or physical therapist or something if I didn't go all the way to doctor.

Janae Thompson [00:27:04] And then I got really interested in, like, psychology and the social sciences and the. In the child development classes because I, you know, I did take it quite a few of those because I was like, well, if I'm going to be a mom, I should take these classes.

Janae Thompson [00:27:16] Yeah. In high school and college, both. Yeah. And so then I. I decided that, you know, maybe I want to get a social, like, have a social background and go to law school. But again, like, the same thing was like, well, that's a lot of schooling. So in high school, I think mostly I just focused on doing stuff that I enjoyed and, you know, trying to get good grades. Even though there was an education emphasis in my home, it was not the most important thing to me. I really liked being social, and I liked engaging in all of the activities and stuff and being in class for the social aspects and.

Janae Thompson [00:27:53] But, but I still, you know, did my work and got good grades and I mean, you know, decent grades, B's and A's and. But it wasn't high school was not as important to me because education was more one of those things that I was going through until college. Then kind of those values between the education and motherhood really started to set in as I started living on my own and seeing how the world worked for real, not just in this home where I was always taken care of. And so that's kind of where I got more of a desire within myself to actually educate myself and actually look into like, what is it going to take to become a mother?

Janae Thompson [00:28:33] You know, so like the real life aspects of these things that I'd been taught, but they were definitely seated throughout the whole, you know, duration of my upbringing.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] So is it fair to say your parents emphasized education but as you contemplated professions that you might pursue like medicine or whatever, that you felt like there's going to be a cap there because there's only so much education I could do before I need to get married and have babies?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] And so maybe you self limited what you thought was within the realm of your possibility, education and career wise.

Janae Thompson [00:29:11] Yeah, 100%. Because I, and I, I came from this background as well. Like, you know, like mom's a stay at home, mom and dad works. And so if I'm mom and I have, you know, $100,000 of student debt, is it fair for me to expect dad to go to work and pay for all that when I'm not working? Because I have a baby, you know, and that's kind of the. And I really wanted to be a mother. Like I really was just looking forward to the day when I would have a baby of my own and I wanted to do these other things so I could. I constantly felt conflicted around that.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:29:43] And it wasn't this like you can do both. It's either one or the other. And I'm not, I'm not saying that that was the messaging that was given to me, like you can't do both. But it was certainly an emphasis on motherhood is the most important thing and education is secondary. And in our family, education is very important. So you'll still get your education and then be a mom.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] Yeah. And where the rubber meets the road for me, as I'm thinking about your story is the path for a Mormon woman is dependent on, number one, finding a husband, number two, that the Husband's the primary provider. And number three, that the husband lives.

Janae Thompson [00:30:23] Yes, correct. All the way through the map. You gotta follow it.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] And so that's great if you're gonna build your whole life around a man that you hope to marry someday. Unless something goes wrong with the man that you marry someday.

Janae Thompson [00:30:39] Right. And I did build my whole construction around. I'm gonna do everything that I've been taught. I'm gonna go to school, I'm gonna get a degree, I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna have kids. My husband's gonna be the provider, and we together will build this world, you know, and hopefully I'll be able to help him with my education. But I don't want to be the primary breadwinner ever. I wanna be the support.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] Yeah. Okay. So anything else about your high school years worth? Faith, the church?

Janae Thompson [00:31:12] You know, I. There's a funny story. I was in one of my family development classes, and I. I copied one of my friend's papers. So I cheated, you know, and my teacher gave me the paper back. And I knew that they were also in the church. They were kind of neighbors, not in our direct ward, but, like, outside of it. And when she handed me paperback, she wrote this sentence on the paper, and it said, where's your integrity? Because she was saying, you know, I know you cheated. And I just, like, that never, never left me. And I felt horrible that I had cheated.

Janae Thompson [00:31:52] And I felt really embarrassed because, you know, we're in the same church and I cheated. And she knows that's wrong because we don't, you know, cheat and lie, and that's a religious value. And so I felt super embarrassed. But then it also really stuck with me my whole life as question that I always had to answer myself, where's your integrity?

Janae Thompson [00:32:14] And so I remember feeling so shameful about it, but then how impactful that question was from a teacher that really, like, guided my life in so many ways around, like, a simple thing, you know, copying somebody's paper. It's not that big of a deal, is it? Wrong. Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:32:33] What does it cheat you? It cheats you out of learning yourself. But to have a teacher come out and say that, and I felt like she was doing it because, you know, that's what the religion taught. And it was such a religious community that I went to high school. And, I mean, there were hardly any kids that were outside of the church, which high school I graduated from Riverton High School.

Janae Thompson [00:32:55] And so, like, I just remember feeling like that's why she wrote that is because we're all part of the church, and it was really impactful and really shameful.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] And what'd you take away from it?

Janae Thompson [00:33:10] I took away from it. Like, I'm not going to get away with lying, and I do want to know where my integrity is, and I want my integrity to be in line with honesty.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Okay, so it's a positive.

Janae Thompson [00:33:22] Yeah, it was a positive. Even though I was, like, mortified and I literally couldn't look that teacher in the eye the rest of the school year.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Yeah. Okay, so as you're graduating high school from Riverton High School, are you, like, Molly Mormon? Are you, like, viewed as, like, super churchy, faithful? Are you having doubts about your faith?

Janae Thompson [00:33:46] I didn't have doubts. I. I don't think that I was considered Molly Mormon either. I think that it was just, again, like, where I grew up, it was just this subculture of, like, everyone just. Just is this way. And so I just didn't have a lot of opinion or thought around anything outside of that.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:08] Like a bubble.

Janae Thompson [00:34:08] Yeah. Yeah, it was okay.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] Okay. So what'd you do after high school?

Janae Thompson [00:34:15] Oh, gosh, let's see. After high school, I started at the community college. I was just kind of trying to find my way. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, and I wasn't really vested in a lot of opinion around that. And it took me time to just really develop desire.

Janae Thompson [00:34:34] And, you know, like, I feel like that was kind of. Like, everything around me was just kind of given to me, and it. It was what it was. And I never really developed my own opinions and thoughts and feelings about a lot of things.

Janae Thompson [00:34:47] And so I, you know, again, like, the values of education. I liked learning. So I went out and I, you know, was taking classes and learning, and I just didn't really have direction yet. And this is when, you know, my mother, again, like this, really valuing education.

Janae Thompson [00:35:04] She started looking into these programs that I could do. And I ended up doing a study abroad to Mexico with byu, and we were international volunteers. And that really opened up my eyes to different ways that other people in the world live.

Janae Thompson [00:35:22] And because we were going there as BYU students, I was like, you know, we are coming in to help save the world and this little orphanage we're working in and, you know, we're making a difference. And that was impactful for me.

Janae Thompson [00:35:36] And it also gave me the idea maybe I could go to byu. And so that was one of those things where I was like, okay, like, maybe I do want to do this. And I didn't really want to go to byu, because I actually didn't want to be surrounded by, you know, such an LDS dynamic in school.

Janae Thompson [00:35:58] And I. I don't really know why I had that. I always just had this little bit of, like, I want to learn more. I want to learn more. I want to explore more outside of the church, even though I've never gone outside of myself to do that.

Janae Thompson [00:36:12] But the desire started, you know, surfacing. So anyway, I went to. So I took a few more semesters of college, and then I actually started kind of questioning the church at that point. And I got to a place when I was about 20 where I was like, you know, I don't really feel like I'm into this organized religion thing.

Janae Thompson [00:36:32] I think it's great. I believe in God. You know, I want to have a relationship with spirituality, but, you know, like, I don't really see that there's this connection between religion and God. And so my mom kind of was picking up on this and was like, oh, you know, what's happening here? And she found this other program for me to do. It's BYU Nauvoo. And so I went to Nauvoo. I lived there for four months. And I.

Janae Thompson [00:37:02] Going into that, I had decided, like, I'm not going to be religious, but if my mom wants me to do this, it's cool. It's outside of Utah. I want to go, you know, like, it's for four months. How bad could it be? And I remember getting there, and I was. I hadn't been to BYU other than that study abroad, so I was not steeped in the BYU school culture. And it was definitely different from my college experience previous to that.

Janae Thompson [00:37:27] Everybody just, like, not. Not to blanket statement what everybody was doing, but it just seemed everybody had this, like, elevated way of living, like, smiling all the time and just excited about everything. And I was like, what is so happy about everything?

John Dehlin [00:37:44] And can I ask for our never Mormon listeners, explain why Nauvoo had a BYU study abroad and what is Nauvoo and what import it holds in Mormonism

Margi Dehlin [00:37:56] and even the significance of your mom offering it to you.

Janae Thompson [00:38:00] Exactly, yeah. So it's this intervention. You know, I've got a daughter that's losing her testimony. Let's send her to Nauvoo as a mecca for church history. Like, Joseph Smith was there during, you know, the time that he was alive, and that's where he was also killed. And there's a lot of church history that went down in that space. And there's A temple there. It was. First temple that was started, started in Nauvoo. And so right next to the Nauvoo Temple, which was reconstructed several years ago because the original saints that lived there, they never finished it, but they. There was a, like a dormitory and so the church owned that.

Janae Thompson [00:38:41] And you know, they would have students coming in for semesters at BYU or through BYU at Nauvoo to study church history. We could do all of our religion credits there. And then just. It was like touring the whole, like everything within, you know, so many miles of that space.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Was it almost like an efy?

Janae Thompson [00:39:04] Yeah, kind of. Although it was more. I mean, it was very rigorous as far as the schedule, because it's like, here's the schedule, here's all the, like, here's the church history classes you take, here's the religion classes you take. And then there was. I mean, I actually never went to efy, so I can't. I assume it was probably pretty similar.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:24] EFY is like very geared around social fun. Even the classes are meant to be like highly interactive and fun.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] It's sounding like the Jerusalem Center, BYU study abroad, but you're. Instead of studying the Holy Land, you're studying Mormon history.

Janae Thompson [00:39:40] Yeah, yeah, sure. Those programs mirrored each other.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:44] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:39:45] Cuz it was very rigorous and academic. It was social too. But it wasn't like what I hear the stories of EFY where you're like all singing together and you know, having all these like sleepovers and testimony meetings and. I mean, there was some of that, but not. It was definitely like more rigorous academically, especially around church history.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] Were there like steak dances though, and social stuff?

Janae Thompson [00:40:05] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Oh, wow.

Janae Thompson [00:40:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] I would imagine they'd be trying to get everyone married off.

Janae Thompson [00:40:10] Oh yeah, they were definitely doing that. It was interesting though, because there it was probably like 70% women, 30% men. So there was a lot more women than men there.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:19] Interesting, interesting.

Janae Thompson [00:40:20] So there was a lot of group dynamic with the men and women. And I think probably half the men there did find, you know, someone that they went on to marry from that group.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Okay. And just for our viewers and listeners, like Nauvoo is a really. Nauvoo is basically think of the last four years of Joseph Smith's life from like 1840 to 1844. Like prior to that, they'd been kicked out of, you know, left New York, kicked out of Kirtland, Ohio, kicked out of Missouri, persecuted, you know, extermination orders in Missouri. And it's like the last place Joseph built the City. But this time he was mayor and judge, and he built a temple there, and he was the commander of the Nauvoo Legion. And it ends up where he started doing polygamy, really in an accelerated pace. He probably married 30 plus women during his four years at Nauvoo, including all the underage girls, you know, and it's also where he was martyred, killed, you know, put in jail and killed because he just got too power hungry and the polygamy thing got out of control, and they ended up just surrounding neighbors, and the state threw him in jail, where he was shot and killed and.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] And then that's when the Saints had to eventually leave Nauvoo and move to Utah. So it's a really intense. Yeah, Carthage Jail, I'm sure.

Janae Thompson [00:41:41] Yeah, we went to Carthage Jail and Liberty Jail, and we went to all those places. It was kind of nicknamed the City of Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:41:49] Like, because that's where he. I mean, that's where he really established himself in the church.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] And to Margi's point, I'm guessing your mom is thinking, if I send Janae to Nauvoo, she'll get a super strong testimony. So how'd your mom's wishes go?

Janae Thompson [00:42:05] So it played out just as she had hoped. So I remember looking at all these kids and I'm like, oh, you guys are faking this. Like this. There's no way you guys can be this happy. And I was fairly unhappy at the time.

Janae Thompson [00:42:18] I just think that I was kind of lost, trying to figure out what I was going to do and where I was going to go, and not super, like, in the culture of Mormonism, which I had grown up in. I was, like, looking at, you know, shifting out of it. And so I just felt like there was a lot of uncertainty in my life. And.

Janae Thompson [00:42:37] And I looked at it as, like, you know, I'll. I'll go try it. And when I got there, I was a little bit. Mm, I don't know if I'm gonna like this. And then after a couple weeks, you're going to the classes and you're in the. You know, you're surrounded by the people, and it's like, okay, maybe I'll open up to this a little bit more. And then I'm getting deeper into the church history classes. And I remember we were studying the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. So I was reading through that book, and, you know, the kids were just, like, commenting on how powerful it was.

Janae Thompson [00:43:03] In every class, it would be like, here's a story that Directs, you know, what is being said in this book to how it's helping me in my life. And, you know, it's just like all this evidence going back and forth about how amazing the gospel is and how helpful it is in your life and how it just kind of to blanket statement, what it does, it solves every problem in your life. And so I'm like, okay, I'll try it. So then I was like, I'll make a commitment. I'll do all the things, like, all the things everybody else seems to be doing, like the prayers, the scripture study, the going to church.

Janae Thompson [00:43:32] I'll just do it all a hundred percent and see what happens. So after a couple weeks of doing that, I was feeling like, oh, yeah, this must be how you get to that place of being really happy. I think I'm happier and, you know, I feel better. And I. This must be working. And so I remember I was in church and I had kind of like not gone to church. And, you know, everybody's like, why aren't you in church? And I'm. I was like, I just didn't want to go. And anyway, so I was going regularly to church. I'm in sacrament meeting. And I just feel this draw to go outside.

Janae Thompson [00:44:05] So it's a beautiful day, summertime, go outside, sun shining, and I sit down. And this is like this place where Joseph Smith had given many sermons. And, you know, there's a podium up there and there's like some seating. And I'm just imagining, you know, what it would have been like for the saints in those early years, listening to the prophet.

Janae Thompson [00:44:23] And I open up my scriptures. And as I'm doing that, you know, it falls open to this verse in the Bible that was along the lines of, trust ye in the Lord Jehovah, for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength. And as I read the word Jehovah, you know, the trees above me kind of parted and this light came down on the Scriptures. And I was like, that's it. That's my answer. Like, I am, you know, like, this is where I draw the line between questioning and being faithful. And from this point forward, I will never question the church again. Like, I know it's true, and I know that this is the path that I'm supposed to be on, and this is the path that I am choosing.

Janae Thompson [00:45:04] And, you know, there's a God that loves me and cares about me and is teaching and guiding and directing me. And that's when I really bought in for my first time in my Life ever. And I, I felt like that's where I got my testimony. I didn't have one before. It was kind of that concept of, you know, everybody else is doing it, living on borrowed light. This is my culture, this is just what I know. And so you can go on that for so long until you can't anymore. And. And I hadn't had an experience until that point that really helped me to feel like it's what I wanted to choose.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] And I just have to. And that's a beautiful experience that I know meant a lot to you and probably sustained you for a lot of years. I do have to ask, like, you're in the place he was propositioning 14 year old girls. Had they in that city? Like, there's the image of Joseph Smith that the church offers us oftentimes and then there's all this history where if we knew it, we might not have that spiritual experience, but because we've been handed kind of an idealized, whitewashed version of Joseph Smith. Then when you're a troubled young adult and you're trying to figure out what life means and you're not feeling super happy or connected and you see all these happy Mormon kids and you've got this idealized version of Joseph in your mind and you're in Nauvoo, you could say that's very impressionable.

Janae Thompson [00:46:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] And then when you have these strong feelings that are affirming, it's like a spiritual experience, but it's almost your. It's Joseph Smith as a caricature, not as actually knowing what he really did. Because if they had educated you well, he propositioned Nancy Rigdon's daughter and threatened her and sent a man off on a mission and then married his wife. Like if you knew all the things he did, maybe you wouldn't have had that experience. So I guess that's a long way of me asking, did they educate you about the real Joseph Smith before you had your theophany?

Janae Thompson [00:46:58] I had no idea. I'm sitting there in this space and we had just been there and it's like Joseph Smith gave this great sermon and there was light and that the spirit was there. And it was like there was the word of God being given to the people right here. And that was what that space meant to me. You know, I had no idea that at the time I was, you know, I was 19 years old that, you know, like the same man giving these sermons was, you know, however old he was 37 or something, propositioning a girl my age, I would have Been like, what? Like, 37 is so old. That's disgusting. At that time, that's what I would have thought. I would have been like, no way. He never did that. I mean, I just. I wouldn't have believed you if you told me.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in a way, you're led, and not nefariously, but your mom wants you to be a faithful Mormon. You're led into a scenario where you're. Where you don't have real informed consent. You don't have the full information.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] And then a context is created where you'll have an emotional experience, and then you've been primed or prompted to interpret those emotions in a very specific way.

Janae Thompson [00:48:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] To the church's benefit, which is.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:12] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:48:12] 100. Well, I mean, I'm living in the city of Joseph. There was not one conversation about polygamy ever the entire time I was there.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] What?

Janae Thompson [00:48:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Not. What?

Janae Thompson [00:48:22] Not one. I mean, nothing that I can remember. If it was mentioned. It was. So, you know, how long were you there? I was there four and a half months and. Unbelievable. The focus there, like, kid.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] Teens who are Internet with, like, young adults who are Internet savvy.

Janae Thompson [00:48:37] No, we weren't. The Internet was. Not really. This was 2000, so. I mean, there was the Internet.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] Okay. Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:48:43] We did not have.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] 2000 is pre.

Janae Thompson [00:48:46] Yeah. So this was 2003. Ish. We didn't. We didn't. We didn't have.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] It was early, so more behaviors hadn't even started.

Janae Thompson [00:48:51] No, we had our.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] That makes sense.

Janae Thompson [00:48:53] Yeah. We had our weekly phone calls that we could make on the phone with the cord, you know, and there were computers there.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:48:59] And they were, you know, restricted as far as, like, what we could do on them.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:03] So.

Janae Thompson [00:49:03] Yeah. It was not like it is now.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:05] I have a question around Nav. Just because I. It's been years since I've been there. But as, like, the town of Nauvoo, is there a history, like, a neutral ground, where you could have been in the town outside of kind of the Mormon bubble or lens of it, that you might have had information like, is that even possible?

Janae Thompson [00:49:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:29] At that time, do you think.

Janae Thompson [00:49:30] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:30] I'm just curious if, like, you were out and about, if there's a historical lens on Nauvoo that might have mentioned some of those things, but you were in a very controlled setting.

Janae Thompson [00:49:42] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:42] Do you have any sense to that?

Janae Thompson [00:49:43] Yes. And actually, it's funny that you asked that, because it's just bringing up this memory that I had. So there's Nauvoo all the spaces that the church owned, and there's like all of the reconstruction of whatever they were doing at that time. There's the blacksmith shop, there's the, you know, trading store. There's all these things. Right. And they have missionaries in there that teach about, like, you know, what happened in Nauvoo. Well, in. I can't remember what it's called. I think it was like, it's like, okay, the. The culture, there was the locals. So there's. There's this big influence of the church there, and then there's the locals.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:21] Right.

Janae Thompson [00:50:22] And I actually made really good friends with one of the locals. And this was actually very, very impactful because he would tell me stories about things that had actually happened in Nauvoo with Joseph Smith and like, some different things. And I can't believe that I kind of like forgot about this. But I think he is the one that actually opened up my interest for actual reality, historically speaking, facts of what happened. Because he would tell me stories about other things that happened in Nauvoo that I was not lear learning at the Joseph Smith Center.

Janae Thompson [00:51:01] And as kids, we. We weren't allowed to like, go out without having somebody with us. I think it was kind of missionary rules. Like, you had to have a companion. You had to be home at a certain time.

Janae Thompson [00:51:13] You couldn't be alone with the opposite sex. But it wasn't like. I don't think there was dating allowed among the people. Actually, no, I remember the rule. There wasn't dating among the students, but the students were not prohibited from dating outside the students. But there just wasn't options. So I think it was like this thing where it wasn't like a rule, but it just didn't happen. And this young man happened to be. He was probably around 24ish, so. And he, he took an interest in me dating wise. And so we did start to spend some time together.

Janae Thompson [00:51:48] And he'd had quite the past as well. And he started kind of telling me some of the stories around, like growing up in Nauvoo and how isolated it was. And anyway, but then, now I remember him telling me, you know, and you know, this is another historical piece of. This is something Joseph Smith did. And this is another thing Joseph Smith did. And he was actually the first one that told me Joseph Smith would drink alcohol in Nauvoo. And I was like, what?

Janae Thompson [00:52:21] No, I don't believe you. And he's like, no, it's, you know, like, it's part of the history of the city. Like and, you know, it's documented here. And I was like, what?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:31] For real?

Janae Thompson [00:52:32] And it kind of just was like. But that was after the word of Wisdom was given, so how could that be? And so I think that actually in Nauvoo, and I've never made this connection before, but in Nauvoo was when I first started thinking, wait, there's things that aren't matching here.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:48] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:52:49] Because of the history.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] Interesting. But you had your spiritual experience.

Janae Thompson [00:52:55] Yeah, but I was there to be a BYU student. I was there to, you know, feel the spirit. I was there to get the shiny eyes that all the BYU students had.

John Dehlin [00:53:04] And you got them.

Janae Thompson [00:53:04] Yeah, I got them.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:05] Shiny eyes.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] So your mom got her wish?

Janae Thompson [00:53:06] Yes, yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:07] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:53:08] And she was very happy, and I was very committed to the church after that.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] So where'd you go from? From Nauvoo.

Janae Thompson [00:53:13] From Nauvoo, I made the decision to get into byu, so I kind of got my. Yeah, I got my academic life together. I got an associate's degree. I got my grades high enough to get in, and I was accepted, and I. So I went to byu, and that's where I was like, okay, I'm committed to the gospel. I'm committed to the church. I'm committed to this whole thing. Now I know what I want to do. I want to go to byu, find a husband, graduate, and, you know, start my Mormon life. Like, that was what I had planned.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Okay, so you got on the train, the Mormon train.

Janae Thompson [00:53:45] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:46] Got your seat.

Janae Thompson [00:53:46] You got my seat. Got my ticket, got my seat.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] How was byu?

Janae Thompson [00:53:51] I loved it. I thought that. I kind of always looked at it as this institution where it was like, okay, this is where, like, all the best church member goes and the smartest. And I'm not the best church member, and I'm not the smartest, so I probably could never get in there. So I felt really proud of myself that I got in. And I also felt really special that I'm now one of the good Mormons and the good church members and the good gospel followers and the smart ones. So, you know, I just. I felt like I. I'm actually one of these people now. Whereas before, for whatever reason, I. I felt again, like just not part of it. It just was what was around me.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:32] Yeah, interesting.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] What'd you study?

Janae Thompson [00:54:35] So I did a social science degree with a family studies emphasis. When I got there, I was pretty committed to, you know, finding a husband and getting married, and so I took more child development classes. And then I thought, you know, I would really actually like to go to law school and do family law. So the social science kind of like tied into that as a, as a good undergrad for law school. And then the family studies, I wanted to do family law. And so it seemed like a good tie. And then if I didn't end up going to law school, I would have a social science degree with lots of child development classes and that kind of thing. And, you know, it would serve me either way. So that's kind of how I approached that.

Life at BYU and the Search for an Eternal Companion

John Dehlin [00:55:15] And how was, how was being a BYU student dating wise in the honor code and all that?

Janae Thompson [00:55:22] Well, I, I was kind of in a unique situation where I lived. My grandma lived like maybe a five minute walk from BYU campus, so I lived with her. And because I lived off campus, I didn't really get that on campus experience a lot, especially like when you go there your first couple years. But honor code was never an issue for me.

Janae Thompson [00:55:44] I think I tried to follow it, but I just didn't really put a lot of emphasis on it. And I didn't worry about it too much. I wasn't really doing anything outside of that. I actually do remember the first time I ever tried alcohol was when I was going to byu and it was. Yeah, I know it was at a party and I don't know that I even knew that it was alcohol. The kids were mixing drinks and it was, it was really close to campus. And this like really surprised me because I had never really engaged in like the really rebellious culture, like anything that was a no, no in the culture I didn't do.

Janae Thompson [00:56:19] But now that I was living on my own, I was, I was like, oh, I kind of like, I. What is that you're drinking? I want to try it. I tried it. I had a sip. It was disgusting. And I was like, ugh, that's horrible. Like, why would people do this? It makes no sense to me. And I want to say there were BYU and UVSC students there both.

Janae Thompson [00:56:40] And you know, it wasn't, I wasn't like looking out for who's BYU and who's not. But I just remember thinking, like, this is odd because, like, I thought at BYU Provo I wouldn't get any of this. And my previous college experiences, like, I had gone to UVU and community colleges. I'd never had any college party that I'd been to that, you know, had drinking or anything like that. Like, I'd never been exposed to it. And so to finally get into like this BYU ideal and then like have a party so close to it that Was, had alcohol at. It was, it was, it was another thing that was like, this is off to me. And so.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] Okay, so you got exposed to some party stuff at byu, but overall your experience there.

Janae Thompson [00:57:29] Yeah, I mean, overall it was good. I.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] You were, I'm sure you were trying to find your eternal companion before you graduated.

Janae Thompson [00:57:35] Yeah, I was and I failed at that. So I didn't get my Mrs.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Degree boyfriends. Did you get engaged?

Janae Thompson [00:57:43] Yes, I actually did get engaged. Not to a guy that went to byu, to a guy that was, I had dated him previously. I met him when I was living in Orem before and he was 10 years older than me and he had been divorced. And so I, I kind. Like when I met him, I was 19, he was 29. I was like, that's kind of, that's a big, a big gap. But you know, I'll be friends. And so anyway, yes, we got engaged for reasons that were not the right reasons to get engaged. And it was kind of one of those things where I was like, oh, I don't really want to go out of byu, not at least being engaged. And it was kind of one of those things where, where, oh, the timing's good, so I'll just. Yeah, sure, this works.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:25] Right.

Janae Thompson [00:58:26] And so I did get engaged. Not a BYU student, which I was disappointed about. Cause I really wanted to find a BYU student so we could say we met at BYU and we, I mean, that's my parents story and you know, like we're true blue BYU students. Marriage, everything came from that. But it worked well enough

John Dehlin [00:58:46] from like a more secular point of view. Now, now asking this question is going to sound stupid and offensive because most people don't get married in college and feel a pressure to get married when they're 21 or whatever. But I'm going to ask you from a Mormon brain, why couldn't you find an eternal companion at byu? You had three years there, there's lots of returned missionaries there. You dated boys. What kept you from being able to find your eternal companion at byu?

Janae Thompson [00:59:13] Yeah, that's such a good question. Because when I would come home, people would comment like, oh, you still haven't been scooped up yet. What are those BYU boys doing there? And I was like, you know, I don't know.

Janae Thompson [00:59:25] So every time I would go out with somebody, I just, I don't know, I just didn't really like, I. There was not this connection. Like there was several opportunities I could have had to be engaged in a couple weeks and married two months later, you know, But I was like, ah, I don't want to. I don't want to do that. Which was kind of unique because I did want to get married and be a mother. Like, that's what I really wanted. But at the same time, I didn't want to just marry some guy just because he was there. And. And I think that that happens a lot more than we realize, just because, like, in proximity, you're just so caught up in the moment.

Janae Thompson [01:00:03] And I would see my friends doing this, and I was like, ugh, I think that's gonna be a divorce. You know? And I just didn't wanna. I just didn't wanna put myself in that position. So even at that point in my life, I had more foresight than I think was kind of typical for that age group. And I think that's why I didn't marry anyone at byu, because I could see far enough ahead that I was like, no.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:25] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:00:26] But it was heartbreaking for me because I was like, oh, I'm failing at the BYU game.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:31] Yeah. It's like I have a. A significant box unchecked.

Janae Thompson [01:00:35] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:35] Yes.

Janae Thompson [01:00:36] And there's nothing significantly wrong with me, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:40] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:00:40] Why isn't this happening? Other than I would just say no.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:45] You didn't.

John Dehlin [01:00:46] You didn't feel the right person?

Janae Thompson [01:00:47] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:00:47] You didn't find the right person?

Janae Thompson [01:00:48] No.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] No.

Janae Thompson [01:00:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] You said Mrs. Degree. Is that what they call it?

Janae Thompson [01:00:52] Yeah, the Mrs. The Mrs. Degree. You get married and then you get your Mrs. Degree. That's what. That's a big joke at byu that

John Dehlin [01:00:59] you're there to get your Mrs.

Janae Thompson [01:01:00] Degree. Yes. And if you graduate without getting it, you. You failed.

John Dehlin [01:01:03] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:01:03] I mean, it's all said in good fun, but there's definitely, like, some structural, you know, belief around that.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] Yeah. Okay, so what'd you do when you graduate unmarried but engaged to a non BYU student? Student from byu?

Janae Thompson [01:01:17] Yeah. Well, okay, so I'm just gonna rewind a teeny bit. My. So after I had had this commitment to the church, I. And I got into byu, then I was like, okay, what's the next step? I'm not engaged. Oh, well, I guess I should probably go on a mission.

Janae Thompson [01:01:33] So I'm totally committed to, like, doing everything right in my life. Being super integrous, you know, like, integrity is my new mantra related to. I'm a religious person and I'm, you know, I am just converted. So. Okay, I'm gonna go out and share the gospel. So one of the challenges. So I'm filling out the. The, you know, sheet for the missionary, one of the challenges I had is in the first couple of years I had struggled with an eating disorder and I, you know, was bulimic for a little while and I. That's a different story. But I was able to really heal from that. And again, I was in a good place.

Janae Thompson [01:02:11] Like, I want to honor my body and I, I want respect my body. And this is one of God's gifts to me. And you know, so that was like one of those things where it was like, I know God can heal me. And I felt like that that had happened. And so as I'm so it had been months and months and I was just in a really good place still and just really gung ho on the church and on the questionnaire for the missionary form that you fill out, it's like, do you. It's one of the questions was, do you have it an eating disorder?

Janae Thompson [01:02:44] In the last. I can't remember the wording of the question now. I didn't feel like at the time I did, but I had struggled with it, so I checked. Yes. So I had gone through my bishop's interview. I'd gone and he referred me to the stake president. I'm going for my final interview. So I've gone through all the steps, I've got the immunizations, you know, I've done all the things.

Janae Thompson [01:03:05] And my stake president looked at that question and he was like, like, you know, sister, I think we should wait six months. And I'm just like, what? Devastated because now I have to go out of this interview and say, like, what do I say? He said, no, I couldn't go on a mission.

Janae Thompson [01:03:19] And it was because I was honest and I'm not even struggling with this thing anymore. And like, I'm ready to share the gospel and like, the Lord should know my heart. Like he. The Lord should know my heart and the stake president should have felt that. And I am just really confused as to why when I am being 100% honest, not because it's a struggle now, but because it's something I did struggle with. Why am I being denied this opportunity when I know how whole I am right now, when I know how ready I am to go teach the gospel and you know, like, everybody's just waiting for me to get my mission call, you know, and now I'm gonna walk out of this interview and what am I gonna say and explain to non

John Dehlin [01:03:56] Mormons why what it means when all your family and ward members know you're going in to do an interview for your mission. And then you come out and say something like, they told me to wait six months. What goes through the minds of everyone?

Janae Thompson [01:04:14] I think that the first thing is like, oh, you did something wrong and you got to repent.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] Like what?

Janae Thompson [01:04:18] It's usually related to morality. Yeah. Like you had sex or something like that. Or, you know, like, I don't even know. Or you have a problem with masturbation. Those are typically the things that missionaries. Yeah. And for me, it wasn't any of those things. And so I was like, people are gonna think that about me and it's not true. And like, I'm embarrassed about this phase of my life. So I'm not gonna tell the truth about that either. It's not that I was gonna lie. Cause I was committed to being very honest. But I was like, that's something I'm keeping to myself.

John Dehlin [01:04:51] Which phase?

Janae Thompson [01:04:53] The whole like, eating disorder thing. Like, I had. I had struggled with that privately. And I didn't. Like, my family didn't know about it.

John Dehlin [01:05:00] I didn't wanna tell everybody.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:01] But then you're in a position trying to. To explain.

Janae Thompson [01:05:03] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:04] Really. It's not. It's not that. But you're not. You're not comfortable saying, but I don't necessarily want to tell my whole war.

John Dehlin [01:05:11] Don't worry everyone. It's not that I had sex. It's that I had an eating disorder.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:14] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:05:14] And it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:16] Right.

Janae Thompson [01:05:16] And I was like, you know, I've worked really hard to heal myself from this and get to a better place where I feel comfortable with myself and my eating and my body. And I just don't want, like, I don't want to talk about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:25] Which makes all the sense.

Janae Thompson [01:05:26] Yeah. And so I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, people are going to think that, yeah, I, like, am immoral or unchaste, and I'm not, you know. And so I just remember walking out of there thinking, like, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And, you know, my mom's waiting in the car and she's so excited and she's like, how did it go? And I'm like, oh, I'm just. I think I'm gonna wait a little bit. I don't feel quite ready to go. And she was like, you know, disheveled, like, what? And she didn't ask. And she didn't ask any questions. And, you know, I definitely wasn't gonna tell her.

Janae Thompson [01:05:55] And, you know, that's something I don't know that I ever told her, but that was the reason why is because I had marked. Yes. On the eating disorder thing. And, you know, missionaries at the time were struggling heavily with a lot of mental issues. Like, it was. So I think that they were telling the stake presence, you know, if there's any issues, just. Just have them wait because there's so many problems coming out into the mission field with this type of thing.

Janae Thompson [01:06:19] But I also just knew that it would not be a struggle for me, and, you know, it wouldn't have been. And it's just. Just like, that's like, my heart was so pure at the time. Like, I just knew I was ready to serve the Lord. And I just felt so almost betrayed that my heart wouldn't have had. Wasn't seen in that moment, and that it was a, you know, like, this logistical question that prevented me from that.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:46] So.

Janae Thompson [01:06:47] So then, like, back to this engagement. So then, you know, this guy comes back into my life just a few weeks later, and we kind of start dating, and he's like, let's get married. Like, we've known each other for four years. And in my mind, I'm thinking, yeah, okay, that's a great idea, because I just said, I don't feel ready for my mission. This will be a great cover for that. Like, oh, you know, I wasn't supposed to go because I was supposed to get engaged. Look how the Lord works, you know, Back on plan.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:14] Yep.

Janae Thompson [01:07:15] We're right back on track, and everything's good, and I'm not embarrassed anymore. And people aren't gonna think. They're just gonna be like, oh, look, the Lord had other plans in store for you. And so it just fell into line perfectly. And he was more on. On brand of the kind of guy that I thought I could see myself with. Like. And so it just seemed like this is the option.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] And you say he was divorced, he had kids.

Janae Thompson [01:07:41] He didn't have kids.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] Okay.

Janae Thompson [01:07:44] He was actually. He was. He had married one of the general authorities. Doctors, daughters, and one of the general authorities had married them and one who later became a prophet. But. And, you know, it's. Yeah, it's past past. But there were there. One of. One of the reasons that I was really excited about this guy is he had these inner Mormon connections. Even though he was not part of that family anymore, he had those connections. And he would make little references to how he was going to be, you know, probably called as a general authority in. In the future, you know, and he was going to travel and do missions and do all these things.

Janae Thompson [01:08:22] And I was like, yeah, that's what I want to do, I want to travel and I want to be part of the Mormon elite and I want to know all the general authorities and I want to be in that world, you know, and he, he would never say things directly because it was more one of those ideas where it's like, I have to say it very subtly, but you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:08:38] But if he's divorced from the general authorities. Daughter or granddaughter.

Janae Thompson [01:08:43] Yeah, granddaughter. Granddaughter.

John Dehlin [01:08:44] They're not gonna call him as the Joel authority then.

Janae Thompson [01:08:48] Nope. I mean, who knows? But like. Yeah, okay. But he had touched.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] The hem of the garment. He had touched the hem of the garment.

Janae Thompson [01:08:56] Yes, he had touched the hem of the garment.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:58] And I can see for you too, it's, it kind of goes back to the special. Yes, I am. You know, you're having that feeling again.

Janae Thompson [01:09:06] Yeah. And where I'm committed, you know, and I've got my own testimony. It's like I want to give my whole life to the church and the gospel and what better way than to serve miss and you know, serve in the leadership. And that's what we're gonna do. Like, I can see that in my future. And so as I can see that as a vision, it's like, okay, this works out really great timing wise. Now I don't feel embarrassed anymore. I'm gonna say yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] So what happens?

Janae Thompson [01:09:30] So we, we get engaged and it turned into a very tumultuous year long engagement that just a lot of issues came out with the, the, the type of person that he was. My reasoning for saying yes, it was all wrong. So I ended up moving out of the state to kind of get some space from him to keep myself in a space where he couldn't continue to manipulate. Basically.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:56] All right, so you've. And these are. I just want to note the ping. The almost like the pinball decision making that you're making about really critical life decisions based on, on really unnatural things like pressure to get married early, pressure to get on the Mormon train. Oh, better go on a mission. Because I didn't graduate from byu, which is a major decision. It's like I didn't graduate from BYU with a husband. So. Bing. Obviously I got to go on a mission, right? Oh, Bing. My bishop wanted to delay me. Bing. I better get engaged. Bing. Oh, the engagement didn't work out. Better move.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] Like, that's a lot of ping pong.

Janae Thompson [01:10:34] Yeah, it's a lot of reactionary decisions based on the path I should be on. That's not working out the way I thought it should be. And based on what other people think in reality.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] Yes.

Janae Thompson [01:10:47] And that's like, yeah, that's a hard place to be when you're making life decisions based on how you feel other people perceive you.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] Well, it doesn't set you up to make the best decisions for you.

Janae Thompson [01:10:58] No.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] Right, right.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:59] No. But can we just recognize though, the vulnerability in you being 19 and then a 29 year old who, as you say, has these credentials that within the church world are something and still you have a level of discernment to make the call around, you know, being manipulated and creating space. And that's formidable for a 19 year old.

Mission, Marriage, and Early Married Life

Janae Thompson [01:11:28] Yeah. And I, you know, I'm really grateful that I had that. And I think that's something I've always been good at without knowing it. Like, it's kind of been a little bit more natural. And as I've gone on to develop it, I'm very aware now, but at the time, I just remember observing. I like to observe things and then make, you know, judgment calls, decisions, and there was a lot to observe. And my original decision to, you know, leave the church before I went to BYU Nauvoo was I'm observing all these people in this religion and it doesn't seem like they're actually like, really better off than anybody else.

Janae Thompson [01:12:09] You know, like, the marriages aren't better. The, you know, it's just like I don't, I don't see it as beneficial. The one thing I kept going back to every time, and this is another, you know, cultural side note around, like, what kind of, of kept me from saying I will leave the church was the temple. It's like there's no other church that has temple covenants that can keep families together. So even though I'm questioning it, that is one point that I can't dispute. I can't argue. I can't find anywhere else. So I'm going to pin that one because I don't know what to do about it yet.

Janae Thompson [01:12:40] And I want that. And I also think that led to me, like, still being open to, like, well, I want to be converted, so.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:51] So the engagement didn't work out.

Janae Thompson [01:12:55] Yeah. So I moved to Arizona. I went back to school. I started a master's degree in business and education. Quit both of those because I was like, I still don't know what I want to do. And then this is where my wonderful mom again, she was like, oh, you know, if my daughter finds somebody out in Arizona, she's going to live there and I want my grandkids to be close to me. So my life goal at the time was to buy a house. House. And her and my dad had just bought this foreclosure at auction in Salt Lake area. And it was just this little condo, and it was in my price range.

Janae Thompson [01:13:27] And so they're like, why don't you just come home and come look at this condo? If you. If you like it, we'll sell it to you for what we bought it for. And I was like, well, okay, you know, that sounds great. So I went there, loved it. I was like, yeah, I totally want to buy it. So by this time, I'm 23, still not married, didn't go on a mission.

Janae Thompson [01:13:44] My engagement has been broken off. It's like, okay, what else can I do to now kind of like, negate all these things I haven't done? So I'm still feeling like I'm progressing. It's like, okay, buy a house. So I bought a house. I bought this house. I moved back to Utah, and that's where I met my husband. And he had bought a townhome in that same complex. And my dad tells this story when he was at auction, they were bidding for this condo, and it just went a little higher. And he's like, the spirit just told me, bid one more thousand higher. And then the other person did, and it's like, okay, I'm out.

Janae Thompson [01:14:21] And then he's like, I just felt this nudge one more thousand higher. And so he did, and then he ended up getting it. And then that was the condo that I bought, and then that's where I met my husband. And so it was the story of, like, you've been led and guided to this place to meet this person at this time. And when I was at the county, you know, judge, where they were doing the auction, it's like, I just. I felt this prompting, and it's like, yeah, yeah, okay. This is. I'm on. I'm on track. I'm on track still.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] Yeah. So, yeah, instead of just self exploration, you're like, trying to meet some arbitrary deadline that's been handed to you. Yeah, I miss feeling like there's something wrong feeling.

Janae Thompson [01:15:02] Feeling like, yeah. And I'm listening to what everybody else is saying.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:06] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:15:06] And I'm saying, yeah, that's. Yeah, that's right. That's okay. Now I can make a decision because you told me, you know, that the spirit told you to bid higher on this, which means it. It, you know, it was obviously meant for me versus, you know, like, is this the right space for me. Like, if I would have just asked that question, is it, do I really want to move back to Utah? Do I really want to buy a house in this? You know, I didn't ask myself those questions. I listened to what was being said around me, and I was like, oh, yeah, okay, I'll do that. Because I heard that. I observed it, I heard it. I still made a decision, but I wasn't asking myself the questions.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:45] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:15:46] Yeah. Okay, so what happened?

Janae Thompson [01:15:50] So I got back on track. My husband and I dated for six months. Months or no, I'm sorry, a year. And after six months, my dad was like, why haven't you guys gotten married yet? And we were both kind of like, well, you know, like.

John Dehlin [01:16:04] And tell us. Tell us his name again.

Janae Thompson [01:16:06] Grant.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] Grant. Okay, so you meet Grant.

Janae Thompson [01:16:08] So I meet Grant. We just totally, like, hit it off. We've got such a great story. He. We. We meet at ward prayer. We lock eyes across the room.

John Dehlin [01:16:17] Is this single a singles word kind of thing?

Janae Thompson [01:16:19] Yeah, singles ward.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] Okay.

Janae Thompson [01:16:20] And so we're at ward prayer, which is where all the. The youth get together on. Or the young adults get together on a Sunday. Because it's like, how many opportunities can we have to get young adults together? Oh, we're going to say a prayer every Sunday night, you know, then we're going to have an activity on this day. Then we're going to do this. So we're at word prayer. It's after church, you know, and someone had said, oh, that's Grant Thompson. He lives in your condo complex. And I was like, oh, I need to talk to him, because I just bought this condo, and I want to find out, is he renting it?

Janae Thompson [01:16:46] Did he buy it? I want to find out what rent. Rent rental rates are. So, you know, like, we're all in the room. I'm at the corner of one side, he's at the other corner. We're folding our arms, saying the prayer. We open our eyes and say amen, you know, and I just lock eyes with him and walk clear across the room. And I'm like, are you Grant Thompson? And he's kind of like, yes, who are you? Because I'm new, you know, and I want to make friends. And so then I was like, you know, can you answer some questions about the area? And, you know, so then we got together and we started talking and kind of hit it off.

Janae Thompson [01:17:20] And this is when text messages were just starting. So we started texting each other back and forth and. Yeah. And he just he was just somebody that was really, really incredible and unique to me. And he had grown up in Canada.

Janae Thompson [01:17:35] He was a pilot, so he had his career established, and he had bought this house. He was renting it out to roommates, and that's kind of where we connected, because I was doing the same thing as a young woman, you know, and he was impressed with that. And.

Janae Thompson [01:17:49] And so, you know, like, we started developing a friendship. He started dating somebody else, and I was like, eh, okay. And, you know, things progress with us in a really slow, healthy pace. And that had never happened before in any of my other dating relationships. It's like, you got a few times, like, are you gonna get married or not? And it's like, yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:09] Forced. A little more pressure.

Janae Thompson [01:18:12] Yeah. And at this point, I was just kind of like. I think I'd kind of also already resigned myself to, like, I may never get married. I may just be an old maid. You know, at 23, I'm thinking this.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:23] Maybe I've timed out.

Janae Thompson [01:18:24] Yeah, maybe I'm too old now and never gonna get married. But anyway, when we met, it was like, it was real, and it was a real, like, possibility to find. Like, what is it we both want? And we both. We had more things to talk about than just, like, we got to get married and what do you want to do? And let's go out to ice cream. So. And I think part of that had to do with, you know, we were both. We had both bought a house. We were both trying to establish our lives. And, like, I think I for sure was starting to see life isn't this illusion of all these things around you, and they just work all the time, you know, I think I'd have had enough experience now that I was starting to realize, like, I need to be in charge of making decisions for myself, and if something's gonna happen, I need to make it happen. Like, nobody outside me is gonna make it happen. And I'm always waiting for someone to tell me what to do.

John Dehlin [01:19:21] Yeah. Okay, so it sounds like you had a really healthy courtship with Grant.

Janae Thompson [01:19:27] Yeah, we did. We dated for a year. And, you know, after six months, people were like, why are you guys not married yet? Are you guys gonna get engaged? Like, what's going on? And, like, what's. How. How come this isn't progressing? And even my dad kind of took Grant aside and was like, why haven't you asked her to marry you yet? Like, what's. What's taking you so long? You know? And I don't know that my dad remembers that. But anyway, you know, but Grant and I talked about it, and we laughed about it, you know, and it's like, yeah, I think this is great. And he was actually coming from a place.

Janae Thompson [01:19:55] He's like, well, I want to date for, like, three years. And I was like, whoa, three years? That's a long time. I'm going to be really old by then. So. So I basically just said, I'm willing to date for three years.

Janae Thompson [01:20:07] However, after a year, if you know that you, like, if you don't know, you want to continue dating me and be with me and, like, work towards marriage, I will start dating other people, but I'll still date you.

Janae Thompson [01:20:19] And he was like, oh, so that kind of. It just kind of, like, prioritized us to each other. And then after a year, he went up into this mountain and asked God if he should marry me. And he saw this cactus flower, and he brought the cactus flower down, and, you know, he said, God said yes. And so then we, you know, went to Hawaii and got engaged, and it was magical.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] Wow. So you. You feel like you had a happy, healthy courtship and kind of a magical engagement?

Janae Thompson [01:20:49] Yes. And we, you know, so my parents dated for two months, got engaged, were married shortly after that. I was born nine months later. So there's kind of followed that more standard Mormon timeframe of just fast. And I just felt like I wanted to get to know my partner and, like, delve through all these issues that I could see coming up that I feel like they should be dealt with before you get married. And so I feel like we created this really solid foundation of friendship and communication and, know, talking about finances and all the things that kind of make a. A marriage relationship work when you actually commit to it.

Janae Thompson [01:21:30] And so by the time we got married, you know, we were ready. And one of the things that was kind of unique about us, Grant grew up in Canada, and he became a pilot. And when he did his pilot training, before he started any of his training, he went and he interviewed several pilots and was like, how did you get from where I'm at to where you are now? And he kind of drew this. This line between these stories of efficiency, like, what are all the points that they kind of made as far as, you know, how you get to this outcome you want in the most efficient, successful way?

Janae Thompson [01:22:03] So we took that into our dating, and, you know, we went around and interviewed couples that we could see had a good relationship, and we were like, tell us about your relationship. What makes it good? How do you guys, you know, work through Issues. What are some of the routines that help you. You, you know, what are your success secrets? And so we did that. And that's amazing. Yeah, it gave us a lot of insight and, you know, we felt really prepared.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:28] Yeah. I, you know, reflecting. That's really interesting too, how you left BYU with this sense of letdown or, like, personal failure that you weren't able to, and almost to confusion, like, I

Janae Thompson [01:22:43] don't know what went wrong.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:44] That.

Janae Thompson [01:22:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:45] Like, I feel like to this place, though, where it plays out and gives you your own, you know, you have your own story now that's really quite different than likely the story you would have had within the BYU structure.

Janae Thompson [01:23:01] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:02] And I just, I love that. I love that for you that there's this moment where you're viewing it as kind of a negative or a loss of some of sort. Sort. But then you tell the rest of the story and it gives you something that's actually really, really valuable to you.

Janae Thompson [01:23:17] Yeah. And another lesson I tied back to that whole experience is when I was engaged to this first guy, I felt like I was not the best version of myself with him. Like, I didn't really love the person I was when I was with him. And I was like, why are these less than my favorite qualities about myself coming out more when I'm around him, you know? And then I met Grant and I was like, wow, like, all the best parts of myself are coming out with him, you know, And I really like the person I am when I'm with him and he brings out the best in me.

Janae Thompson [01:23:45] And so that was a really good contrast. So then I, I tied that to, like, well, that's why I had that experience. Like, the Lord wanted to teach me appreciation and how to really see, you know, contrast. Because if I hadn't had that horrible experience, I wouldn't be able to really appreciate and enjoy this great experience. And that's the whole purpose of life. It's this, you know, you come to earth, get a body gain experience.

John Dehlin [01:24:07] I love it. I love it. Yeah. So how was the wedding? And, and, And I guess, let's see. You may have already said this. Did you attend the temple, take out your endowment? Right. Right before your wedding?

Janae Thompson [01:24:22] Yeah, right before.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:24] So how was the temple. Your temple experience, and how was the wedding? And.

Janae Thompson [01:24:28] Yeah, so. So we flew back. Our engagement was actually really short. We had dated for. For probably actually a year and a half, and our engagement was only three weeks because once we knew, we knew and we just wanted to take the next step. So we Called our friends and family, and we're like, hey, we're gonna fly back to Hawaii. We're gonna get married in the Laie Temple on this day. It's in three weeks. If you can make it, we'd love to have you. If not, we totally understand. But we're doing it. And at this point, we had kind of made this decision. Like, this marriage is about us.

Janae Thompson [01:24:56] It's about what we want. It's about our covenants. It's about, you know, the promises we're making. And we're just gonna do what we want, and we're not gonna worry about what everybody. Everybody else wants. And part of that was coming from this place of, like, you know, this is the life I create. And I don't want to have this big Mormon wedding with a reception at the church and all of that stuff. So we just. We were like, we want to get married in a beautiful place. So that's kind of what we did. And like, a week before we left for Hawaii, I went through the Salt Lake Temple.

Janae Thompson [01:25:23] I really wanted to do the Salt Lake Temple because they have the live sessions, and that just felt really special to me. And I remember walking in and I just felt like, I've made it like, I am. I'm here. And, you know, this is the epitome of where I've wanted to be and to get. And I've got a marriage that's about to happen, and now I'm going to get to learn the secrets of what goes on in the temple. And I'm just super excited. And I thought it was a little interesting, but I was just in this, like, happy, happy state that I didn't feel like looking at, you know, anything that was done in the temple.

Janae Thompson [01:26:00] I was just kind of like this overwhelm of, like, I gotta make sure I'm following the directions and doing all the things. And I feel nervous and I feel super happy and excited. And so I just kind of. It was one of those experiences again where I was just like, okay, I'm just gonna let this happen. And it's just gonna be until I can have time to kind of process it.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:22] Yeah, almost. You have to kind of go through that to get to the thing you want, and also how hard what the journey had been to get there.

Janae Thompson [01:26:31] Yes. And the other aspect of that is, well, we're gonna get married in the temple in a week. So, like, I have to do all these things, and there's no, like, there's not a question of whether I want to do it. There's not a question of if I'm okay with everything. It's just this is the process you follow to get this outcome. And I was committed to following the process. So I. I didn't even look at it with any degree of. Of, you know, skepticism or oddity or, you know, I definitely saw that there was interesting aspects to it, but I was like, well, if this is what my parents have been doing for years and years, it's. It's got to be the way you do things.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:11] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:27:11] So.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Yeah. And so you got temple married in

Janae Thompson [01:27:16] the Laie Hawaii temple.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:27:19] All right. And there you're on it. You're on the Mormon train. You did it. You got your. You got your returned missionary. You got your eternal companion.

Janae Thompson [01:27:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] I. I know what you're supposed to, you know, do next as far as the Mormon train goes. Yes.

Janae Thompson [01:27:33] To have a baby. Well, you know, again, we wanted to take some time to wait. Like, we wanted to establish. So we really liked the pattern of dating for a year and establishing what we wanted for our marriage. So we wanted to have. Be married for a year and kind of establish our marriage and then, you know, add a family member to.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:50] To it.

Janae Thompson [01:27:51] So. But, you know, my husband knew how excited I was about having a baby, and I didn't want to push him, but I. He knew I was really eager to, you know, like, take the next step. So I remember six months after we were married, he leaned over and whispered in my ear. He's like, we can start trying for a baby now if you want. And I was like, what? Are you serious? You know, and I was really excited because I was committed to waiting for a year. And he's like, well, yeah, I mean, it takes, like, nine months to get here, so we're. We'll still be married over a year by the time the baby gets here.

Janae Thompson [01:28:20] And, you know, like, if you really want to have a baby sooner, we can try. And I was so excited. So we, you know, we started trying for baby. I got pregnant right away, and I miscarried that baby. And so then I was like, wow, this is like my first baby. What if I'm not going to be able to have kids now? So it was another thing like, oh, man. Okay. I thought I was all good, and now this is. There's another, you know, speed bump here. Like, you know, what if I have problems getting pregnant because this is my first pregnancy? And I just, you know, I was really, really inwardly nervous and scared about, like, my ability to continue on this path.

Janae Thompson [01:28:59] And this Plan that I had set out for myself because, you know, like, things were just still in my mind, supposed to work out the way you planned them.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:06] Yeah. Especially if they kind of follow the plan, Right?

Janae Thompson [01:29:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:10] So had you ever. Had you ever considered that as a reality for yourself? Had it ever been talked about, this idea of, like, some women, you know, have a really hard time getting pregnant and some women can't get pregnant, or was that like a whole new reality for you? Do you remember how you.

Janae Thompson [01:29:31] So it wasn't. Because I remember growing up with, you know, motherhood is the most important thing, and if a woman can't get pregnant, that's like the. The saddest thing that can happen to a woman. It's just so hard. And it's. I mean, it's the worst thing that a newly married woman could be cursed with. In my mind, that's how I kind of interpreted it. And so I was just like, oh, my gosh, what if I have that curse? You know, like, what if I can't have children? I'll be worthless. In the whole scheme of Mormon motherhood, I will be worthless. Exactly. And so it really was coupled with a lot of fear. And what's interesting about that is I don't think that I even took thought to grieve losing a pregnancy. I was just so scared about my ability to have children that I didn't even, like, process that whole experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:20] Wow. Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:30:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:22] And that makes so much sense to me, that experience and how you processed it.

Janae Thompson [01:30:28] Yeah. And I was just so anxious to get onto the next try so that I could see, like, is it gonna happen again, or can I actually have a baby? What does it mean for me? Yeah. Cause, I mean, doctors were like, well, you know, let's. Like, this is pretty common. It happens, like, just try again when you're ready. And I was like, but, like, what does it mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:30:46] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:30:47] You know.

John Dehlin [01:30:47] Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of the focus for today's interview is going to be on kind of when Grant passes and managing life afterwards. You were married how long before he passed away?

Building a Family and Navigating Marriage

Janae Thompson [01:31:06] We were married. We were coming up on our 13th wedding anniversary. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:11] So you had four children with Grant in those 13 years, and you built a really successful, super successful YouTube channel at the time. One of the top YouTube channels in the world. Yeah, it still is. But I mean, even more so, I guess you were saying a few years ago, how do we condense? How do we tease out the most relevant portions of those 13 years?

Margi Dehlin [01:31:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:33] To. To make sure we distill the important stuff for what comes later.

Janae Thompson [01:31:38] What would you want to say about that? Yeah, that's a great question. So just, it was just a wild ride. It was like, okay, we had this miscarriage, I got pregnant again, we had a healthy baby. And from that point, it just continued to follow the plan again, you know, and it was like, I never had a problem getting pregnant again. Every time we wanted to have a baby, we were able to. And you know, as we continued to add to our family and, and, you know, Grant was working and I was taking care of the kids. It was like, everything's. We're playing our roles perfectly.

Janae Thompson [01:32:09] Everything's working out the way it needs to be working out. Our business is growing. There is this little thing that, you know, is kind of exciting. Posting videos on YouTube. It was more of like a lifestyle type thing. It's just something that, you know, we did and then we started seeing it as a business. And then, you know, that did become our primary focus. That and our family became our two most important, important values for how we spent our time. And at that point, you know, we had established ourselves as, you know, adults, married couple, homeowners, you know, all the things that kind of encompass responsibility and the things you look at as a child and you're like, wow, that's what I want to be when I grow up.

Janae Thompson [01:32:49] Like, they're doing all the things, like I'm now doing everything my parents did. So I felt like we had made it to that point. You know, we went to church every Sunday. That was a non negotiable. Like we were both really committed to that.

Janae Thompson [01:33:02] We were not super temple attendance goers until, you know, I kind of brought it up and was like, well, you know, like, this is part of a really important aspect of what we do. And we're not prioritizing it because we're working. And so it's like every time something would come up, we would address it and we would find a solution. So we started going to the temple every month. And that became on our calendar, it was like every second Tuesday of every month, we'd go to the temple or every second Thursday. And then, you know, it's like, oh, you know, we're both working a lot with the kids and you know, you're doing the YouTube thing and we're figuring out the finances and we're not connecting.

Janae Thompson [01:33:38] And so, you know, like, what do we need to do to remedy that? Oh, we need to have a specific date night. So Tuesday night was our date night. Every single Tuesday night We had a date night so we could start counting on these things. And we, we, we created this environment of stability and prioritizing what was most important to us so that we could not miss out on, you know, even though we were so busy and our focus was to build this business business, we weren't, we didn't want to miss out on the important things. And so that's kind of how we operated. Like we create a system for everything that's amazing.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:10] The level of awareness and to your life and what's important and then your ability to reflect in process with all the, you know, all the demands of life coming in and then edit accordingly, like literally make changes. That says a lot for your partnership. Did it feel like a partnership? Like if you felt something strongly that, you know, within your marriage, you were heard and that you oftentimes would, you know.

Janae Thompson [01:34:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. I feel like we had such a good open communication and you know, we brought up things freely. We were honest about just about everything, you know, that I know of that we could be honest about. And you know, we would say that things that. And this is where, you know, I kind of go back to this question like, can you ask the hard questions and really be willing to get the answers? And that's part of an aspect of relationship that when you're communicating with each other, can you say the things that are not just the flowers and roses or the things that you want to hear or the things that you're used to and can you really lean into answering them without taking it personally or without being offended?

Janae Thompson [01:35:23] And if you do take it personally and if you are offended, can you process through that so we can get to the information so that we can really connect?

John Dehlin [01:35:31] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:35:32] And, and we had a really good formula for doing that for, you know, the majority of our marriage.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:38] So rare. Yeah, it really is a rare.

Janae Thompson [01:35:41] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] So how many years between your marriage and you're like living off of your social media? Like.

Janae Thompson [01:35:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:51] Full time income?

Janae Thompson [01:35:53] So I think so. Grant actually stayed employed as a pilot for till like 2017. Ish. So we kept our, we kept our full time employment. He cut his hours way back. Like income wise. We probably from when we started in 2011, we probably could have retired him from the job like within a couple years. But it was this security piece. Like we had insurance to get your own business and get your own insurance, like is like astronomically more expensive. And we were just kind of afraid to take that last leap outside of the, like the structure of having employment. But we were fully running our own business and, you know, making plenty of money to sustain ourselves within like a couple years.

John Dehlin [01:36:42] Okay, so you're married what year again?

Janae Thompson [01:36:44] So we married 2007.

John Dehlin [01:36:46] Okay.

Janae Thompson [01:36:46] Started YouTube in 2008, but we actually started the like, what it is now in 2011. And yeah, by this time. So 2011. So I remember 2013 in January was when we hit a million subscribers. And I remember that. 2000 or no, 2014.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] 14.

Janae Thompson [01:37:07] Yeah. So it was just January of 2014. And I remember that because I had had my third baby in 2013 in December, and he was just like this teeny tiny baby on the carpet next to dad's desk as we were like, oh, we had a million, you know, and he was just like barely moving around because he was so little.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] I mean, it's amazing that he's teaming with you to create a successful YouTube channel while he's a full time pilot or part time eventually. And that you're having two, three, four kids and then you're able to partnership together to create. Like if someone was doing that full time, they would have a hard time doing that without kids.

Janae Thompson [01:37:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:43] So it's kind of amazing.

Janae Thompson [01:37:45] Yeah. Just going back to it, I'm like, wow. Yeah, we were doing a lot.

The Rise of the King of Random

John Dehlin [01:37:49] Do you want to. Do you want to just talk just briefly about the invention of the idea of the king of random or tkor, and kind of how it blossomed from just an idea into a full time.

Janae Thompson [01:37:59] Yeah. So before we bought our first house, we rented this basement apartment. Our goal was to again, like, we go back to our goals and our systems. And our goal was to buy a house for cash. And we wanted to buy our first house with cash. So we didn't have a mortgage. So we moved into this super tiny, tiny basement apartment and rent was like 800 bucks included, everything.

Janae Thompson [01:38:19] And so we just saved our money and worked as hard as we could, but we spent a lot of time together because we just didn't have much going on outside of this goal and working. So during this time we started like, Grant just like loved experimenting. So we'd put these experiments together and we'd try them in the basement and like, they just turned into the content that. So for that two years we lived in that basement apartment and saved all our money. We just experimented. And then our first video was done in that apartment. It was a fire with a water bottle video. And it got like, it went viral.

Janae Thompson [01:38:49] It got like a hundred thousand views, which at the time, you know, there wasn't anything. There was Nothing that had a million views. There was things that had five views. So you get a hundred thousand views. It's like, whoa, this is like viral.

Janae Thompson [01:39:02] So then we moved into our house where we established the king of random. And that's when, you know, everything started coming together. But that's also where we were like, okay, let's actually, actually focus on this and make it a business versus just a hobby. And so we just. We branded everything from the beginning as if it were going to be a business, not just a hobby anymore. So we took that from let's just do this to let's. Let's create this business around it so that, you know, we're. We're starting to see people get subscribers and, you know, have income on YouTube and, you know, like, why don't we just do that? And so we did that from the very beginning.

John Dehlin [01:39:36] Yeah, but that feels like. I remember starting podcasts a decade before anyone had even thought about monetization of podcasts, and still people have a hard time with it. But you probably didn't know a lot of people that were making a full time living off of their YouTube channel.

Janae Thompson [01:39:53] No, there was nobody until we heard a news story of someone that had done it once, and we were like, whoa, you can make a living off this? That's kind of cool. Well, we'll set it up as a second business and just, you know, have fun with it.

John Dehlin [01:40:07] And what. Whose idea was it to do science education and come up with a name? And how'd that happen?

Janae Thompson [01:40:13] Yeah, so the name was given to us by a friend. A friend came over and was like, man, you guys are always doing, like, the weirdest things at your house. Like, you're always doing these random projects. And he's like, man, dude, you're like the king of random. And so that's kind of where it came from and that it wasn't taken. And it kind of gave us the liberty to, you know, explore whatever it was we wanted to do because we didn't know, like, we want to do science. It just kind of fell into that category.

John Dehlin [01:40:37] Okay, and so you just. You just went with that?

Janae Thompson [01:40:41] Yeah, so we just went with it.

John Dehlin [01:40:42] And did y' all grow up on Bill Nye? Did you have him?

Janae Thompson [01:40:45] Yeah, I did. I know Grant did a little bit, but he. He wasn't super into exploring and learning either. It was both of us kind of lived this childhood where we didn't, like, super engage with the world around us. It was just like everything was happening to us and we were getting to this space and then once we found each other and got married, it's like this insatiable curiosity and desire to learn just kind of overtook both of us and we were like, there's so much more to the world than we ever could have imagined and like, we want to know it all. And so it just really became this like, insatiable curiosity that we both had to ask questions and get answers and ask questions and get answers. Answers.

John Dehlin [01:41:24] Interesting.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Fun. Well, what an amazing ride you guys have had. And that I think the story of TKOR kind of could be its own epic 48 Hour Mormon Stories interview.

Janae Thompson [01:41:37] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] How so how would you describe the health and obviously only share what you're comfortable. How would you share how the health of your marriage and then the health of your testimonies progressed towards the middle and end of your time together?

Janae Thompson [01:41:54] Yeah, so I think one of the things we loved about each other is we were both committed to the gospel, but we weren't overly zealous about it. Like, we could kind of just engage in life while this is a part of our life, but we were both like, really committed. I think this is also where I really started to desire and have a, like a deep yearning to learn. Like when they say, you know, like, study the scriptures and learn the doctrine. And that's when I was like, okay, I want to, like, I want to know now, like, what is this really that I've committed to, you know, And Grant had kind of done that on his mission and he had a, you know, an intense mission experience.

Janae Thompson [01:42:31] And after that he kind of just put that away and was like, okay, I've done the mission thing, I've done the church thing. Like, I still have a testimony. I want to be involved, but I have like, done the deep work and I'm not going back to that, but I have hadn't experienced that yet. And so I started really like, digging deep into the gospel, into the scriptures. I wanted to, you know, ask questions at church and like, be involved. And I wanted to go to the temple and I wanted to have family scripture study and family prayer. And you know, he, he didn't really want to do any of those things.

Janae Thompson [01:42:59] And so I was kind of always like leading those discussions. Like, well, can we start reading scriptures with the kids? Can we start having discussions about the gospel? Can, you know, like, you're the priesthood holder, like, this is your job. You're supposed to be kind of doing this. Like, will you do it? And he's kind of like, eh, it's not like it's not that big of a deal. We, like, we'll learn as we go. Like, let's. He just didn't want to prioritize it with intention. I really wanted it to be intentional. And so this is kind of where we, like, we didn't fight about this at all, but this was always like a source of conflict where I was always wanting it and he was resisting and, you know, and we slowly incorporated into our family. So I would say, like, so you're

John Dehlin [01:43:37] trying to ramp up your Mormon game. Yeah, and he will wasn't. He was into it. But not super zealous, right?

Janae Thompson [01:43:44] Yeah, not super zealous.

John Dehlin [01:43:45] I was feeling a little bit of frustration. It's like, come on, man, let's get into this and do it.

Janae Thompson [01:43:49] Yeah, like, this is your responsibility. It says here in the proclamation, like, you know, you got. You got to follow the. Follow the rules here. And so he was always open to those discussions. But, like, when I would ask him for a blessing, he'd be like, ah, you don't really need a blessing. Like, you'll just get better. And I'm kind of like, wait, like, how are we supposed to exercise our faith if we do that?

Janae Thompson [01:44:10] If we just, you know, do the things that'll make us better versus getting the blessing that's supposed to heal, you know, and. And he was. He's always been more of that logical, scientific mind, which is kind of where the channel came from in that, you know, like, he wants to know the nuts and bolts of how things actually work. And so I think that he kind of filtered religion through that a little bit as well, which made it so he could see the logic of it. And it's like, well, like, yeah, maybe a blessing will give you comfort, but, like, it's probably not actually going to heal you.

Janae Thompson [01:44:39] And I know there's stories and all that, but, like, it's just a process. And if. If you have faith in it, great, it supports that. But, you know, like, you've got to do the things. And so that was always, like, part of where he was coming from is this really logical space where I was like, no, let's just like, have all the faith in the world and be the most spiritual people and, you know, like, everything will be magical for us. And, you know, that's why we're having so much success, is because, you know, we're a good Mormon family and, you know, the Lord's blessing us and we're paying our tithing.

Janae Thompson [01:45:07] And he really loved paying tithing, and I just really loved trying to, like, build our family culture around the gospel. And so as we were building this, it's like, now there becomes three things. It's like committing our lives to the Lord, building our business, taking care of our kids and family. And so in that, you know, we. We made a lot of other sacrifices. Anything outside of that didn't fit into our lives because we were so busy. You know, we didn't have friends, we didn't go out, we didn't do activities with our kids. We stayed home, we built our business, and we went to church in the temple. And that's kind of our. That's what our life was, primarily consisting

John Dehlin [01:45:46] of it for years into that change in those last couple years, or was that pretty much all the way through?

Janae Thompson [01:45:52] Yeah. So once we got our business to a space where it was sustainable on its own, that's when we kind of stepped back and was asked ourselves the questions, like, what else do we want to do in life? And that's when we started saying, like, I to want to. I want to go do yoga teacher training. He wants to go, you know, do power paragliding.

John Dehlin [01:46:11] And so wasn't he the face of the show?

Janae Thompson [01:46:14] Yeah, for a long time when he actually stepped away before he died. And we had it running with different hosts at the time of his passing. And so we had made this decision, like, now we want to focus on being with our kids, having experiences, doing trips, living the gospel. Like, you know, let's retire ourselves in a way that we're not doing that grind. And while our kids are little, let's spend this time with them. Let's homeschool them. You know, let's teach them the principles we want them to be raised with and just really be involved in our family. And, you know, family was always the priority for us, and it was always like, family is the most important thing, and everything we do is for the family.

Janae Thompson [01:46:52] All this work that we're doing is for our family. All of this that we're establishing is for our family so that one. One day we can enjoy it.

John Dehlin [01:46:59] Okay. Wow. And so you. You start looking at, you were saying, other pursuits and ways to get fulfilled.

Janae Thompson [01:47:08] Yeah. And so at that point, and this is around 2018, we start, you know, exploring other things that, you know, piqued our interest. And we. We just started, like, living really what it felt like for the first time, not just working and raising kids and going to church. And so I think both of us really started to explore what do we really actually want out of life? What do we want to do who do we want to become?

Janae Thompson [01:47:32] Like, how do we want to live our lives? And. And that's when, like, new questions started coming up. So between him and I, you know, we were still really united, but we both had different things we wanted to do. And now we didn't have this, you know, united mission and purpose to grow this business anymore. And so we were both kind of going outside that, exploring it.

Janae Thompson [01:47:50] For me, one of the things I started to question was, you know, like, how. How does this religion play a role in my life? And how can I really integrate it in the highest and best way? For him, he was like, I want to go do extreme things. I want to, like, I just want to have fun.

Janae Thompson [01:48:10] And so we both kind of like, respectively went on those paths. Paths separately. I mean, we were still together, we still had our family, we still did a lot of things, but we started spending a lot less time with each other, and we just started getting interested in different things. And, you know, his things I wasn't super interested in. I didn't want to power paraglide because, like, that just looked really scary to me. And I was like, you have to learn a lot. And, you know, you're a pilot, you already know all these, you know, concepts around air and flight. And it's just so such an overwhelming learning curve to me.

Janae Thompson [01:48:41] And, you know, like, if I do one thing wrong, I'm going to crash and get hurt, and I don't want to do that. So, you know, and for me, I was like, well, I want to do yoga and I want to really connect to my spiritual side. And, you know, like, I just. I just want to create this being within myself that's like such a powerful, you know, spiritual space. And, like, I want to be able to heal the world with my touch. And, you know, I just. And he's like, okay, that's weird. But, you know, like, if you're into it, go for it. You know, like, I'll support you.

Janae Thompson [01:49:06] So we. So we had very polar opposite, different interests that we wanted to start pursuing suing. And so he. So he went and got his power paragliding training. Um, this was in November of 2018. Once he came back from that, we were living in Salt Lake Valley at the time. And he was like, I don't want to live in Salt Lake Valley anymore. I want to be in a space where we can. I can go power paragliding all year long, like, year round. So I'm done with the snow. He's from Canada. He's like, I've shoveled enough snow for my whole lifetime. I'm done. So, um, he went out to St.

Janae Thompson [01:49:40] George and was looking for a place, and we had talked several times about getting a place out there, but now he had a purpose to do it. So before, I just wanted it because I thought it was a nice area, you know, now it's like, oh, I can go power paragliding, and so I want to be out there. So he found this perfect house for him to do his power paragliding.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:57] And.

Janae Thompson [01:49:57] And we had talked about actually, like, moving down there full time, and so we wanted to build a house and all these things, but then we decided. Decided, like, before we build a house in a place we've never lived, how about we just, like, buy something that's in a nice area, live in it for a couple years, and just see how we like living down there? And he was like, oh, that's such a great idea, because then we don't have to commit, and we, you know, don't have to make such an investment and all these other things. And so, like, as soon as he gets an idea, he just runs with it.

Janae Thompson [01:50:20] So he went right down there, found a house, calls me up. He's like, hey, I found this house. I'm gonna buy it. And I'm like, well, aren't you gonna show it to me first? You know? And he's like, yeah, I want you to come down. But anyway, so we bought the house. House. You know, it. It was a really nice house. It was a. A good area. And. And he's like, I can't be here anymore. We were running our business out of our house in Salt Lake Valley at the time. He's like, I just need to go. And I'm like, okay. Like, what does that mean?

Janae Thompson [01:50:46] And he's like, I just, like, I want you to come with me, but if you can't, I'm going anyway. And I was like, okay. So what we decided to do is I decided to stay in the house in Salt Lake Valley for a few more months. Months.

Janae Thompson [01:50:59] My second grader at the time was just doing super well in school, and he'd never done well in school. He. He. He'd always struggled, so I didn't want to pull him out yet. My. Our oldest was really struggling in school, and so he decided, well, I'll pull him out and I'll take him to St. George with me, and I'll homeschool him, and you can stay here with the other three, and, you know, and then we'll, you know, Meet back up when the time works out. So that's. That's kind of what our plan was. And this is interesting. So we weren't separated at all. We were just living in different places, planning to get back together in a little while.

Janae Thompson [01:51:29] But this was really interesting because people were like, wait, Grant lives there and you live here? Like, are you guys getting divorced? Is there something going on? You know, it was all these, like, we. We just got so many odd looks and questions from everybody around us, because, like, if you're married, you live together. Like, that's what you do. And for us, we. We're not necessarily in a bad spot, but we were exploring different things and just kind of wanted some space, and we had the opportunity to do it, and so we did, and it was really nice. And during that time, I kind of had some space to really, like, ask myself those questions in life.

Janae Thompson [01:52:07] Like, what am I doing with my life? And where am I at? And, you know, like. And being away from my spouse, my time was spent differently. And so it really kind of opened up, like, what do I really want out of life? And I was able to orchestrate life with my three little ones really well. And I had this wonderful routine to the point where I was like, I really love living here. I don't know if I want to move out there. But then I was like, you know, I can feel the distance that's being created between us, and this is not healthy for our marriage.

Janae Thompson [01:52:34] So I'm going to. I'm going to go move out there. And so I did end up finally pulling my second grader out, and we all moved down there, and. And it. And that was a hard adjustment because it felt like. I felt like going into this house that he'd picked for his reason to go power paragliding, like, I. It didn't feel like my home, and it didn't feel like my space. And we had a hard time integrating back. And so that brought up a lot of issues, like, just within our marriage and our relationship, like, where are we going with this? And, like, what is our marriage and what does it mean to us?

Janae Thompson [01:53:05] And, like, where are we really at? And. And this is, like, we had never had any, like, space to ask these questions because everything was always just going so well, and we were, you know, doing things and following our routine, and everything was working out great. And as soon as we kind of stepped away from that, it was like, actually, is this working?

Janae Thompson [01:53:25] And that's not to say, is our marriage working? But just, like, every aspect of our Life, parenthood, chur, church, each other, ourselves, individually. And it's like it all just kind of came crashing down on us when we had the space to kind of step away from what we'd been doing as a grind for 18 hours a day for 10 years.

Challenges and Struggles Within the Marriage

John Dehlin [01:53:42] So in. I don't know how much you do or don't want to talk about this. In your outline, you mentioned that he had some rough stuff that he experienced growing up, and that probably affected, you know, your marriage and your intimacy in various ways. And there's all sorts of types of intimacy.

Janae Thompson [01:54:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] And that. That even maybe came to a head the. The last couple years of your marriage.

Janae Thompson [01:54:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:10] I'm speaking very vaguely because I want to let you decide what you want to disclose.

Janae Thompson [01:54:14] So he. So he had grown up in a. Out of the. Out of the United States, in Canada, and it was an interesting dynamic there. He had been very bullied as a kid. The dynamics in his family were difficult when he was a baby. And, you know, there were some really hard things that happened to him as he was really young. And then he had had some abuse happen sexually with, like, neighbors and things like that throughout his, like, younger years and then through adolescence, like this bullying, like, really got heavy with him and kids would just go out of their way every day to call him a loser.

Janae Thompson [01:54:52] And he just had no self confidence at all. And his mission kind of brought him out of that and gave him really the confidence to, like, do the things that he could do because he was given this outline. Like, you follow this precisely, which he did, and then you get this outcome. So he would follow this precisely. And that kind of went from the other extreme of like, he was like this rejected kid to this, like, kid that could do everything. And. And so he kind of felt like from childhood to mission, he had processed all of that trauma that kind of, like, came from that experience.

Janae Thompson [01:55:30] And this is where what I didn't realize is, you know, that hadn't happened. He hadn't processed through it. And, you know, I'm just thinking as a good wife, you support your husband through anything, you know, and nothing, nothing bad was happening in our marriage. Like, there wasn't abuse. He wasn't an alcoholic. You know, he wasn't cheating or I wasn't cheating. You know, like, on the surface, it seemed like everything was really great.

Janae Thompson [01:55:57] What I didn't see is his compulsive need for something. And during the 10 years we were working together, it was the building of the business and the validation of the comments and the videos and Everything that was coming, and we were getting it at such a great, incredible rate that there was nothing other than we are the most successful, and this is all working. So once that kind of went away, this validation left, and then it was like he. He continued to need validation. And so.

John Dehlin [01:56:31] So he had. He had a compulsive behavior, a compulsive personality.

Janae Thompson [01:56:36] Yeah, but because it wasn't drugs or alcohol or sex, you know, it was like, oh, he's perfectly fine. What I didn't realize is it was one thing after another after another. So when we first got married, he got really into skydiving, and I was like, oh, this is so great. This is cool. And then, you know, there was this kiting phase that he went through. He got in this kite, and all he wanted to do was kite, you know, and then we started our business, and then it was 100% in the business. And I was like, see, this is such a great quality he has.

Janae Thompson [01:57:01] He can just really hyper focus on things and get stuff done. And because, like, this is producing income and it's supporting our family, there is nothing but positivity to be said around, you know, this compulsiveness, which I didn't see it as that at the time. And then when he took up power paragliding, it was just the same thing. It was like he lived, ate, breathed, died. You know, power paragliding. It's like all he wanted to do every waking moment. And, you know, to me, at the time, I was kind of processing it as, like, well, you know, he's worked really hard, and this is the next thing, and it brings him a lot of joy.

Janae Thompson [01:57:35] What I didn't see was the compulsivity and addictive nature of it. Like, the addictive nature of, I need something that I'm not getting because I don't have it. And, you know, that to me, relates to when, especially as a child, you have a need that's not being met. It's like, unless you really go through and have that filled for you, that that need met and that that place in you that's kind of hollow, healed, it's always there.

Janae Thompson [01:58:03] I didn't know enough about psychology to really see that or understand that or understand like, why he constantly needed to have something where it was, like, extreme to get, you know, a reaction from people. And it was because, like, the extreme reaction provided validation that he's better than, like, the average person. And so this was kind of like an overarching theme in our marriage, that we're above, like, what Normal couples do. Like, we. We dated better than everybody else. We, you know, we had this courtship that was more intense, and we addressed all these issues. And, you know, then we got married, and, like, we planned our family in this way, very intentionally so that we could do it better than everybody.

Janae Thompson [01:58:44] And I think for me, that also came from this place of, like, well, I am more special than most people, so I'm gonna do things that are more special than most people. And he certainly had that mentality of, like, Superman, like, the Superman complex. You know, I'm so capable of doing things that other people can't, that I am above, like, what's normal. Like, I can perform better. I can do bigger and better things. And, you know, I. I'm more immune to, like, the consequences of those things.

Janae Thompson [01:59:16] And so this is what he believed about himself. I trusted him completely, so I believed that about him. You know, we would talk about power paragliding, and I would say that, you know, there's nobody more qualified to be up in the air than him. He's a pilot. He's been kiting, skydiving. He's got every single aspect of how to be successful and safe in this down. Like, he's like, got it. You know, and so I just never worried about him in that way, because I was like, well, if something were to happen, he'd know right what to do, so he'd never get hurt. Because, you know, we've preeminently planned for that, and we're special, you know, so.

Janae Thompson [01:59:51] So that's not going to affect us. And we just both believed that, I think. And I. I mean, from the first time I saw him take off, and he's a thousand feet up in the air, and I'm like, whoa, that's really high, you know, and, like, if anything happens and you fall a thousand feet out of the sky, you are dead. But I saw that, and I was like, wow, that's really high. That's so amazing. Never once was I like, oh, like, you could die doing this. It just didn't cross my mind that that would ever be an outcome for not. Not even just in the sport.

Janae Thompson [02:00:21] In the sport of power paragliding, but in our. Like, he's. In our marriage. Like, he's 38. You know, people don't die at 38. We got married in the temple. We plan to have a family. We plan to raise our kids together. Together. This is our plan. We're following our plan. There's nothing outside of that that's going to affect the main things like, yeah, we've had speed bumps, but here's some more evidence for why you're so special. You've been able to get over those speed bumps and get right back on track.

John Dehlin [02:00:48] Before we talk about his death, you mentioned. And I don't. Again, I don't know how much you want to talk about this, but you mentioned maybe a lot of sexual shame or torment that he experienced. And maybe you'll say this was his story to tell or. Or not. And then you mentioned how some body image things. And then maybe the last couple years of your marriage, it all kind of coming to a head in terms of your intimacy. Is that an important part of his story or not really.

Janae Thompson [02:01:15] I mean, it's an important part of who I am because, like, now as I've been able to let go of those things that I didn't even know were issues at the time because they were part of what, like, I thought reality was and then, like, being removed from that. So back to your question. Like, one of the things that I thought was super interesting is he grew up in, like, more of this very, like, prudish culture of, you know, like, don't talk about sex. Don't look at, you know, like, any. Like, if you're getting dressed, cover up all the time. Like, it's just, like, extreme prudishness.

Janae Thompson [02:01:55] And so he was very, very curious. He's always been very curious. And so, you know, he wanted to see. Well, like, why can't I see what naked people look like? And so, you know, a young boy that leads to magazines and, you know, like, where can you find pictures of that to figure it out? And, you know, that was something that was really exciting to him. And so, like, again, like, the addictive nature of his personality was kind of like, I need to find out. And so I will be on a mission to find that out. And it was one of those things where, you know, you can't talk about it and it's any aspect.

Janae Thompson [02:02:30] And, you know, growing up in the church, if you have a problem with porn or masturbation or. Or if you engage in any of those, not even have a problem, don't tell anybody. And that's kind of how that was portrayed for him. And, you know, it is his story to tell. At the same time, he's not here to tell it. And I'm what's left. And what I want to take from that is not, like, the negative aspects or, you know, the embarrassing parts or any of that, but, like, this is the reality of what happened. And Also how it affected me in our marriage because of what actually happened.

John Dehlin [02:03:04] That's fair.

Janae Thompson [02:03:05] And so, you know, like, the effect of that on me was that, you know, porn was an issue, but it wasn't a big deal. That's how we looked at it. It's like, oh, yeah, well, sometimes, you know, you see porn, but, like, everybody does it and you just don't talk about it.

Janae Thompson [02:03:23] And to me, I'm like, well, you know, like, we're in the church and the church says that's a sin, so shouldn't you confess it to the bishop? And it's like, nah, it's just, you know, like, it's not very often. But what that started to breed around sexuality was an inauthenticity around honesty in sexuality. And so then, even though we're a married couple and, you know, we had disclosed everything, you know, he said, yeah, I've looked at porn, and, you know, like, it's part of my childhood. It's part of my experience, but in my mind, I interpreted that. But after we get married, you won't need to look at porn anymore because we'll be married.

Janae Thompson [02:04:01] And so then we can be intimate and it's allowed. And that's also not the reality of how things work. You know, you can have a wonderful, great, amazing, beautiful, intimate life, and you can still go outside of that in a personal way that your partner doesn't know about it. And then it creates that disconnection and disassociation from each other. And the problem with that is when you can't talk about about it. So if I can't talk about, you know, like, well, are you looking at porn? Is it my business? Is it not my business? You know, we're partners, and if we can't even establish those ground rules, then it just becomes a taboo.

Janae Thompson [02:04:36] And so once you have a taboo in a marriage, that creates distance, even if it's just one thing. And, you know, like, we could still talk about those things. But for me personally, I felt so much shame around talking about any of those things that I didn't feel comfortable bringing it up in a way that I felt empowered to have a conversation around it because it was just, like, so uncomfortable for me.

Janae Thompson [02:05:01] And so, you know, I remember thinking, how do I do this? And I don't know. So I'm just not going to do it. So do it. Meaning, like, just have a conversation about it or, you know, like, ask, like, is this something that's still part of your life? And, you know, like, we were still open enough That I knew in, like, what aspects it was still playing a part. But even in those aspects, you know, I would say, well, you know, instead of you taking care of yourself, well, like, why don't you come talk to me and, like, we can see if it would be a good time for us to be together, you know, and then, like, if.

Janae Thompson [02:05:35] If I want to be intimate and you're not in the mood because, you know, you're. You've already, like, taken care of yourself, then it's like, well, like, that affects our intimacy. And so. But for him, it was like this. I don't want to go outside of myself and ask because I'm not sure how it's going to be responded to, because as a child, I was criticized for asking for what I need, and I was made fun of. And, you know, it's not that I wasn't a safe person for him to ask. It was that he had these issues within himself. And so he made decisions that affected our marriage, that affected our intimacy that we couldn't talk about because of the healing that he hadn't done based on the culture that shamed all of this, you know, everything.

Janae Thompson [02:06:19] So in every aspect of our marriage, we had a great relationship. And there was this one part that was kind of like, we don't talk about it. We just navigate around it. And it all came from shame and addiction and not feeling safe to talk about things that are not all of the good stuff.

Janae Thompson [02:06:40] So we could still have hard conversations, just not about one topic, you know, and it's. It was around sexuality. We could talk about our sexuality with each other, but, like, the personal sexuality and, like, that aspect of it, it wasn't something that either of us could do within our marriage.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] And you mentioned in your outline that the last couple years of your. Your marriage.

Janae Thompson [02:07:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] Were you kind of estranged that way?

Janae Thompson [02:07:04] A little bit, yeah. Yeah. What was interesting is. And I, like, I couldn't figure this out, but our intimacy kind of just tapered off. And I was like, well, you know,

John Dehlin [02:07:15] like, your sexual intimacy.

Janae Thompson [02:07:16] Yeah, sexual intimacy. And, like, you know, we used to have a really great sexual life, and now it's like, we're not sleeping together anymore. He's sleeping with the kids, or I'm sleeping with the kids. And there's so far that can go before it's like, well, actually, like, you're not. And the whole time we were living apart, you know, like, I went and visited him a couple times, and we just never, like, came together intimately. So it was like six months. That was Going by, and I was like, like asking my friends, like, is this normal? Like, do other people do this? And it's like, oh, yeah, it's normal.

Janae Thompson [02:07:46] Like, when you, when you've been in a marriage so long, like, sometimes you have phases where you are more intimate sexually and. And then you have time that goes by where it's not. And you know, I'm hearing from other couples, like, oh, yeah, we, we only have sex a few times a year. And I'm like, what? Like, so I'm. I'm starting to ask and like, starting to get feedback because I'm like, I don't know if this is.

Janae Thompson [02:08:08] And one of the things that I felt was happening at that time. Well, first of all, I was like, I wonder if his testosterone's low, so it could be a hormonal thing, you know, like that phase in your life. But it was this transition that we had gone through, and this was like a new rejection for me because he. I didn't feel like he wanted me or needed me in the same ways that he had before. Like, when we were working together. It's like we had this mission to accomplish and now he, he wanted his paragliding and he wanted to like, really focus on the kids.

Janae Thompson [02:08:39] And I was like, but what about me? And he's like, well, yeah, I mean, like, what are you doing? You know, and it's like, wait, this whole time I thought we were doing this together, and now I'm questioning, are we doing this together? Because, you know, he doesn't like my yoga. And, and this is not to be critical of him, but it's like, he's not into this thing that I'm into, but I need to be super into this thing he's into. And it's like, well, you know, like, I love you and I support that for you, but, like, what does that mean? Like, do I need to do it with you?

Janae Thompson [02:09:08] Do I need to be there every time you take off and land? Do I need to, you know, like, how. How do I show up and support you for this? Because, you know, he became. And then this was the other aspect coming out of the business and into like this family culture that we had created. Like, we neglected a lot of, like, the systems within our family. We're just getting by day to day stuff. So, you know, he takes his focus from building the business to the family, and it's like, oh, here's all the things you're doing wrong in the family. And I'm like, wait, like, this has been working for 10 years.

Janae Thompson [02:09:36] I'm open to changing it, but like, there has to be like some integration. It's not like you come in here and you're an expert and you change everything, you know. And so we were struggling in that way of like, kind of butting heads on, like, okay, how do we want to run the family? Well, I want to run it this way and I want to run it this way. And so like, we were navigating how to figure that out. And it was rough because we'd never really like had any kind of fight, like the whole decade, our first whole decade. And it's not that we hadn't disagreed, it's that we were always able to just talk through it.

Janae Thompson [02:10:12] But I think again, it's like this. There's so many deeper issues that we either weren't aware of or didn't know how to talk about or didn't know how to address. And so we couldn't get through them. So this is like the second, you know, decade of a marriage where I think, think you start really addressing those things. Even though we had this amazing foundation because of this trauma. And I didn't understand, like, how trauma really affects someone that's actually been abused.

Janae Thompson [02:10:39] I didn't see the signs and I didn't know how he was interacting. He was trying to find satisfaction and fulfillment and value in life by doing things, which I understood that and at the same time, time. So one of the examples is he, he was very body conscious. And for a man, he was always saying, like, oh, you know, like, I'm too fat or I've got this belly. And you know, I'm looking at him and I'm like, well, I'm really attracted to you. I think you're a really handsome guy. And he's like, no, I've got this, you know, extra five or ten pounds. And, and I'm looking at my friends, you know, and the, the men are complaining about how their wives say that, you know, and, and I'm looking at him, I'm like, oh man, I just love my body.

Janae Thompson [02:11:21] And he's like, oh, I. I think my body's fat. And I'm like, we're kind of switched in that role. Like, that's kind of interesting. Why is that happening? And I realized like, he had placed value on how he looks because of, you know, some of the sexual trauma that happened and how taboo the body was. And so he became a little bit over conceptualized about body image. And one of the interesting things about that is once I realized, like, I could Say, all day long, like, you're so handsome. You look so. So, you know, like, you're in great shape. I mean, an extra £5. You look fine.

Janae Thompson [02:11:56] Like, you look fine. Like, you're more in shape than most of the guys your age. You know, like, how can you be so obsessed over this? And then I realized it's because he doesn't believe it himself. Like, he doesn't believe that he looks good. He believes that he's five pounds overweight, and until that's gone, he's not valuable. And so then I realized I can't fix that for him.

Janae Thompson [02:12:15] And I can't tell him you look great because he doesn't believe that. So then, not only am I telling him something, he doesn't believe I'm lying to him because he doesn't believe what I'm telling him. And so then that became another, like, source of disassociation because I'm just telling him what he wants to hear. In reality, I'm telling him how I actually feel, but that's not how he's hearing it. And so, because I didn't realize that, I'm, like, just trying and trying to fix the problem.

Janae Thompson [02:12:44] The problem being how he sees himself or, you know, how we communicate over this or that. And then, you know, like, I can't fix what he thinks. And that's when I realized, oh, my gosh, like, I've been trying to please him this whole marriage that we've had.

Janae Thompson [02:13:00] And one of the books that I read that kind of, like, really brought this out was the Four Agreements by. I can't remember the author, but it's called the Four Agreements. Yeah, Ruiz. Yeah, Don Miguel Ruiz. And I just realized, like, again, I've fallen into this trap of doing everything outside of myself, because that's what I feel like is expected. That's what I feel like this plan has been for me. That's what I feel like is what, you know, like, there's nothing outside of this that I should be doing when really it's like, myself that I should be at asking these questions to, like, how do I want to interact with my husband?

Janae Thompson [02:13:39] Is it my job to make him feel good about himself? Is it my job to, you know, support him in everything he does and give up the things I want to do? And it's not that that was what we did in our marriage, but those things would happen. And because I didn't realize it, it put us on this path. So when we started asking ourselves, you know, what do I want to do in Our life, you know, after we kind of put the business as a secondary priority. Priority. It's like all these questions come up that we didn't have the capacity to answer because there had been so many things that we just didn't know how to address.

Janae Thompson [02:14:10] And, you know, like, I started to feel like, oh, this is how men and women, like, really start to not be able to understand each other in communication because everything had been so great up to that point. And I was like, I wonder if this is, like, how couples fight most of the time. You know, like, these issues that, you know, I hear couples have. Have these unbelievable fights. And at that point, we, like, neither of us really liked conflict, and so we would always just solve problems really peaceably. But I think we left out really important critical key points that we were not allowed to talk about, like, taboos.

Janae Thompson [02:14:45] Like, can I talk about the sexual abuse you had? And is that related to how you feel about your body? Like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:14:51] Or why we're not having sex now?

Janae Thompson [02:14:53] Right, right. Yeah, exactly. And. Yeah. And is that because, you know, you're more concerned about taking care of. Of, you know, what you need without bothering me? Because you see me as something outside of yourself. Like, are we really, like, a marriage companionship, or am I just an accessory? Are you just an accessory for me? Because we were both very independent people, and we would always joke about how we didn't want to be. Let's see, we would always say we didn't need to be with each other. I don't need you. You know, I want you. I want to be with you. I want to love you, but I don't need to love you.

Janae Thompson [02:15:28] I don't need to be. Be with you. If you were to go away, like, I'd be just fine, you know, like, of course I'd miss you and all these things, but, you know, we. We always felt, like, pretty empowered around being, like, interdependent versus codependent and maybe to an extreme where we didn't understand, like. Like, really, like, integrating ourselves together.

John Dehlin [02:15:47] Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like towards those last couple years, you started to grow apart. Is that fair to say?

Janae Thompson [02:15:54] Yeah. Yeah, we did.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] Yeah. Well, maybe. Is it time to talk about his passing?

Margi Dehlin [02:16:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:01] You want to talk about that next?

Janae Thompson [02:16:01] Yeah. Yeah, we can go there.

John Dehlin [02:16:02] Okay.

Janae Thompson [02:16:04] Yeah. So the actual day that it happened, I had just come back from a yoga retreat, and to set it up, I'd been gone for seven days, and he'd been with the kids for seven days without me. And he's like, oh, man, I haven't been able to do the things I want to do. And like, this. This has been, like, so much, and I need to take a break. So he'd gone power paragliding that morning. Morning.

Janae Thompson [02:16:24] And in St. George. Yeah, in St. George. Yeah. So we were all living together now. And in my mind I'm thinking, yeah, like, this has been the last, you know, like, 12 years of my life, like, not just a week. And now you need to go, like, take a break and go power paragliding. But I get it. Like, I support that. And so, you know, he went that morning, came home, it was great. So he would usually go once a day, but because he was feeling neglected, like, he hadn't been able to go as much as he wanted, he wanted to go again that night.

Janae Thompson [02:16:53] And so. And I had just been traveling. I had a headache, and I was kind of feeling, like, needy. And I. I didn't want to tell him not to go, but I didn't. I really didn't want him to go. And I had never felt that way before.

Janae Thompson [02:17:06] So what was interesting is that whole day, we were just, like, together. Like, it was really low key. We were just kind of like, in and out of each other's space, like, in the house all day. And, you know, normally we would go out and we would do things and. But today we were just home and we were just. Just like, crossing paths all day. And it was really kind of sweet. And I remember I was laying down and, like, just taking a little. A little nap. And, you know, he came down and laid next to me and. And, like, you know, we were, like, hugging each other and kind of spooning.

Janae Thompson [02:17:35] And I was just like, oh, this is just so nice. Like, I could just do this forever, you know, and feeling like for some reason this is not. Like, this is just a moment and this is going to be over and, like, enjoy this. And it was just like this weird, like, longing feeling for something that was gone, that was right there, that was happening. And I couldn't quite, like, comprehend what that was. And then just like an hour later, I had said to him, I was like, hey, remember how your GPS tracker is connected to your phone? And, like, if anything ever were to happen to you when you're out paragliding, I don't remember how to access your location on that GPS tracker, so can you just remind me how to find you if, you know, if anything were to happen?

Janae Thompson [02:18:23] So, you know, he pulled up his phone, showed me, like, oh, yeah, here's the tracker. Here's the app. Here's how you locate it, here's how you find the location, here's how you refresh it so, you know, as the location's moving or whatever. I was like, okay, great, thanks so much.

Janae Thompson [02:18:36] So, you know, like, I asked that question that day, like, what was on my mind? Like, why did I ask him that? And I kind of felt like, like I was guided or led and, you know, like, that was a question I was supposed to ask. And then.

Janae Thompson [02:18:50] And then in my mind, like, well, if. If I knew that I was supposed to ask that, you know, like, what was going to happen and how did. If. If I was supposed to ask that, then obviously, like, whatever caused me to ask that would have known that, you know, something was going to happen. And like, why couldn't they have prevented that from happening instead of. Of, like, prompted me to ask this question? You know, this was like kind of one of the things that, as I'm looking back, I'm like. And I'm really grateful that I asked, you know, because that's how we found his body.

Janae Thompson [02:19:23] But so that. So that night we had done our little family routine. We did scriptures, we did prayer, and I had kind of got. Gotten him on a. I. I had come up with this whole plan to get him to do scriptures and prayer with the kids. I was like, okay, we read the Book of Mormon all together as a family. We can go to Disneyland. So that was our goal. And we had gotten into a good routine doing that. We had just finished the Book of Mormon, I think. And so anyway, we were in this good routine. We'd done our scriptures in prayer. We talked to the kids about their day, and we'd talk to each other.

The Night Grant Did Not Come Home

Janae Thompson [02:20:02] And then we kissed all the kids and about to get them ready for bed. And then he said, hey, can the two older boys stay up tonight? So that's that. I can put him to bed. I just want to give them this experience of playing some video games tonight. I just really want to give that to him. And the way he said it was so weird. I was like, you want to give them playing video games tonight? Like, okay, I guess, if that's really important to you. So I put the two little kids to bed, we kissed goodbye. He walked out the door and that was the last time I saw him.

Janae Thompson [02:20:29] So he had said, I will be home at 9:30. And he was always pretty much on time. And. And I'm sitting in my bed, I've got one of the older kids next to me playing on his game. And you know, I'm looking at the clock and I just feel like immediately at 9:30 I just looked at the clock. I'm like, it's 9:30 now. Nothing out of the ordinary had happened yet. But in that moment, I said I wish Grant were here so he could see how cute Riley and I look in the bed. Cause I'm reading a book and Riley's right next to me. And he's just gonna be so excited when he comes home and sees us, you know, like cuddling in the bed and we're together and I'm letting him play this video getting.

Janae Thompson [02:21:05] And you know, it's just. He's just gonna love walking into this. And I look at the clock and it's 9:30. And immediately I felt. I was like Grant. And like I was like, are you here? Like, it just felt like immediately when I said I want Grant to be here and see this, like he was there. I couldn't see him, but I felt like he was there. And I was like, oh, that's really weird. Like, why would I feel like he's here? And it felt. Felt like this very overwhelming feeling of like when a person walks in the room and you know who it is without seeing it, but they're actually there.

Janae Thompson [02:21:38] That's what it felt like. Like he was actually there. I just couldn't see him. And it was very, very distinct. It was like Grant standing in that corner. And I was like, no, he's not. You know, like in my logical brain, but in my heart I was like, he's right there. That's weird. And then I went back to my book. You know, I was like, oh, he'll be here in a few minutes. And so. But I felt uneasy. And so that's when I checked my phone. It's 9:45. As soon as I checked my phone, I saw my neighbor calling. And I was like, yeah, something's off.

Janae Thompson [02:22:04] Cause he's not home yet. He said he'd be home at 9:30. It's 9:45. And I just like got this panic feeling. At 9:45 I pick up my phone and my neighbor's calling me right at this moment when I'm feeling panicked. So I answer the phone, he's like, hey, it's your neighbor across the street. I'm just like, is Grant okay? And I was like, like, what do you mean? He's like, well, his truck is still at the park and his, you know, his flying paraphernalia is not on the back of it because it was always on the back of it. And you know, it's just getting dark and I just wanted to check in.

Janae Thompson [02:22:35] I was like, well no, I haven't heard from him. And he, it's. He said he'd be home at 9:30. Sometimes he gets, you know, caught up in the park talking to people about the paragliding, but then he'll come straight home. So it's also not totally out of the ordinary for him to not be home at 9:45 if he were to get talking to somebody.

Janae Thompson [02:22:53] But he should be home any minute, you know, so I'll call him. So I called and I called and I called and it just went straight to voicemail every single time. And I was like, what is going on? And I knew he wanted to fly in this area that didn't have reception, so I just figured, oh, he's out of reception.

Janae Thompson [02:23:06] So then the neighbors called again and they're like, it's totally dark, he's not here. You need to call the police. And I was like, what? Like why would I call the police? He's, he is not gonna like that. He's gonna be totally embarrassed if the police found him. And you know, he's just like run out of gas or something.

Janae Thompson [02:23:24] I'm like, no, I need to go get him because he doesn't want to be embarrassed with everybody finding out some mistake that he made and that was stupid. So I get on the computer, I look up his location and I see he's like right on the border of Utah and Arizona. So we're in St. George, which is close to there, but it's an hour drive from where I'm at. And I'm like, why is he an hour away from where I'm at?

Janae Thompson [02:23:45] So in my mind, you know, I'm self sufficient and I, you know, I do everything. I don't go outside myself to ask for help. I'm like, oh, well, I guess I need to get in the car and go pick him up, you know. So I'm planning to get in the car. All my kids are at home, two of them are awake. And I'm planning to drive an hour to go pick up my husband because I think he's run out of gas. And this just. And like I already knew something was off. And this is where I can already see my brain going into the space of like illogical thinking.

Janae Thompson [02:24:12] So then my neighbors are kind of like, no, no, no, no, you're not like, you, you don't, you're not going to get in your car. I was like, why not? And they're like, well, we just need to call the police first. So finally, like, I'm just fighting myself on this. Like, I don't want to call the police. I don't want to make this a big deal. I don't want to embarrass him. I don't want to, you know, all these things I don't want to do. And then finally, it's just like, something in me is like, you have to call the police. So I'm like, okay, I'll just do it.

Janae Thompson [02:24:40] And against everything that I wanted to do, call. Called the police, submitted a missing person's report. And I'm like, he's only been gone an hour. You know, like, you can't.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:48] They're.

Janae Thompson [02:24:49] They're not considered missing unless they've been gone so long, so they're not even going to listen. Like, I just didn't know how any of this worked, and I was just really nervous about, like, the whole process. So I called him.

Janae Thompson [02:24:59] I looked up the GPS location, gave him the GPS location. I kept trying to call him, but I was like, well, he's out of service. That's why he's not answering. Looking back, if I would have been. So, first of all, he. He had an emergency thing on the GPS that he could have sent out if he was capable of doing that. He didn't do that. The other thing is his GPS location never moved once. As soon as I found it, it was just stationary. And so, I mean, he's not a stationary person. In my mind, I'm just thinking, oh, he's just sitting there waiting for us.

Janae Thompson [02:25:31] So I'm already going into this space of panic and trying to figure out how this logically could work. Work, because everything works out in the end. So what are the ways that this will work out? Even though something's off. So, you know, some time goes by, like, we're just waiting and waiting and waiting, and, like, nothing's really happening. They're out looking for him. So then a dispatch finally calls me. It's like 12:30 at night. And they're like, okay, we're going to send a helicopter out to the location because it's pretty remote. There's not really roads to get out there. And, you know, we'll let you know.

Janae Thompson [02:26:04] I'm like, okay, how long is the helicopter ride? They're like, oh, it's about 30, 30 minutes. I'm like, okay, so once you pick him up, how long will it take to get back? She's like, oh, probably about an hour. So I'm thinking in my mind, okay, it'll be about an hour and a half before he gets home.

Janae Thompson [02:26:16] So, like, in my mind, I'm like a helicopter. And at this point, I hadn't told anybody. So I finally send a message to his parents, his brothers. I didn't send a message to my family because I was like, I don't want to worry them, and my mom just loves to worry about things. And, you know, when he said, home safe tomorrow, then I'll tell her about it.

Janae Thompson [02:26:36] So I send a message to his family. I'm like, hey, look, nobody freak out. Like, Grant hasn't come home tonight. Just send us some prayers because I want to make sure that, you know, like, we find him. And I just wanted to make you aware that he's gone and we don't know where he is. So they start freaking out and I'm like, why are you guys freaking out? Like, it's fine. Like, he just is somewhere and we're going to find him and he'll come home. Like, it's fine.

Janae Thompson [02:26:58] So then more time passes. We don't hear anything. We don't hear anything, anything. And now it's like, so it's 12:30 that I get this call from the, the helicopter people. So I'm thinking, okay, in my mind, 12 30, 1, 2. So he should be home by 2. So then 2 comes and goes, and then 3 comes and goes. And I'm just like, what is going on here? So then I'm like, man, it's three o' clock in the morning. I'm so tired. Like, I'm not going to be able to function with the kids. Maybe I should just try and get some sleep. But I felt guilty because I didn't want him to come home and have everybody have the lights off.

Janae Thompson [02:27:31] And we all just fell asleep and, you know, forgot about you. So I kept the lights on and I just kind of laid back and closed my eyes. And then 3:30, my doorbell rang. I run out there. I open the door, I see four guys. I'm like looking for Grant's face, you know, I'm like, oh, I don't see Grant out there. Which if he was out there, why would he ring the doorbell, right?

Janae Thompson [02:27:50] And it's police officers, and there was two people from the church there. And. And they just said, can we come in? And I said, yeah. And then I'm thinking in my mind when I see this in the movies, that's not good.

Janae Thompson [02:28:02] So I was like, did you find Grant? And they're like, yeah, we found Grant. And I was like, oh, good. And they're like, it's not good. And I was like, what does that mean? You know, like, maybe we're gonna go to the hospital.

Janae Thompson [02:28:13] So then, you know, they're like, can we sit down? I'm like, oh, that's also not good. In the movies, when they tell the wife to sit down, that usually means they're dead. So I was like, oh, oh, no. And the thing is, like, from the moment that 9:30 hit and he wasn't home, I already knew, like, and I would not even look at that as a possibility until it was confirmed. But I knew everything was different. And I knew that I had been ignorant to the reality, and I would not face the reality until it was confirmed.

Receiving the News of Grant's Death

Janae Thompson [02:28:42] And so the moment it was confirmed was when the police officer walked in and he said, we found your husband. He's been in an accident and he did not survive. And my response to that was, I know. And he kind of looked at me like, I don't think you understood what I said. We found your husband, and he was in an accident and he didn't survive. He's deceased now.

Janae Thompson [02:29:02] And I was like, yeah, I know. And everybody just kind of looked at me like, how do you know that? And, and then in my mind, I was like, well, they can't tie me. I wasn't even there when he died, so it's. I didn't do anything. That's not how I know. I just know.

Janae Thompson [02:29:20] And then, you know, they're like, can you sit down? Let's ask some questions. And I was like, yeah, okay, sure. And they're all just looking at me with this face of, like, just complete horror. And. And I was like, I. Like, the way you guys are looking at me is really uncomfortable because it's like you're waiting for me to react.

Janae Thompson [02:29:38] And. And so then they start offering, like, my wife can come over and sit with you. I'm like, I don't want to sit with some stranger that I don't know. Like, I want to be alone. I want to go. Like, just look at my kids sleeping. Like, I have no interest in talking to anybody that's, you know, your wife or the bishop's wife or anybody, you know. And so then I, I, I just, like, kind of got through the questions, and they didn't want to leave. And I was like, you guys, please leave. Like, I need you to get out of my house. And they were super hesitant because I, I don't think they knew, like, if I understood or you know, if you were.

John Dehlin [02:30:12] Suicide risk.

Janae Thompson [02:30:13] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:14] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:30:14] If you were emotionally stable for your kids.

Janae Thompson [02:30:18] Exactly. And I could definitely see that there was like, I don't think she should be left alone. And I was like, get out of my house. So anyway, I just. So then I called his parents, and I told him. They were the first people that I told. And then I just went back up to my bed where I had been. Well, actually, I went up to the bunk room where all my kids were sleeping, and I just laid down next to him, and I was just like, what?

Janae Thompson [02:30:40] Like, what do I do? Like, I should. I wake him up? And then I was like, no. Number one rule in parenting is never wake up a sleeping child. And so I just looked at him, and I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna tell you. When you wake up, can we just all not wake up? Because if we don't, then we don't have to. Or maybe this is a dream. Maybe if I go to sleep and then I wake up, it won't be real, you know? So then my kids got up, and I just kind of stared at him, and I took them outside, and I jumped on the tramp with them.

Janae Thompson [02:31:07] And I'm, like, jumping up and down in this, like, comatose state, you know, like, thinking, like, oh, yeah, everything's normal. It's just fine. And in my mind, I'm like, what am I gonna do? Like, what do I even do? I just. You know. And there's no textbook on this. Like, how do you tell your kids their dad's dead? How do you, like, go through your days now? Like, I just. I was like, I. I don't know. I don't know. I was just at a complete loss. The first time in my life, I was just like, I have no idea about anything. I'm not sure I even know how to keep breathing.

John Dehlin [02:31:41] So how did you, like, thank you for telling us. That's so hard. I mean, I. It sounds like. And I'm relating to one thing that I think I might be hearing. I'm. I don't always have the emotional reaction to things that people sometimes prefer, want, or expect from me.

Janae Thompson [02:32:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:03] Specifically, I. It's rare. It's rare that I cry.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:07] Cry.

John Dehlin [02:32:07] In fact, my sister died of colon cancer. And I know I've never cried about it.

Janae Thompson [02:32:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:12] Even though I loved my sister.

Janae Thompson [02:32:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:14] And I feel things. It's just. That's not the way I react. And I never did. And I don't know Whether that just means I didn't process it or, or that I. I just accepted it. I don't know.

Janae Thompson [02:32:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:27] Anyway, I'm just, I'm relating to the idea that you were watching them watch you.

Janae Thompson [02:32:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:32] Expecting a certain type of reaction and that isn't how you're wired or is it what you were feeling or something?

Janae Thompson [02:32:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:40] So how do you, how would you describe what you were feeling?

Janae Thompson [02:32:45] I think that I was feeling this sense of, okay, you're giving me this information, I don't know what to do with it yet. So I'm just gonna kind of put it right here for a minute and like, I'll start processing it when I'm ready. But it doesn't mean anything yet. Like, in my mind, logically, I know it means like, my husband's dead. The first thing I thought was my kids don't have a dad anymore. Like what? Like that's why I married a good Mormon guy, that's family centered so that I would have children that would grow up with a father. The second thought I had was, who am I going to have sex with now?

Janae Thompson [02:33:20] And the third thought I had was, my life is going to change forever. But like, how? I don't, like, I don't comprehend that. So, I mean, those are, in my opinion, kind of three really odd thoughts to have. And there was no emotion with them because, you know, I feel things for sure. And I didn't cry for weeks.

Janae Thompson [02:33:46] I mean, I think I tried to cry a few times and it felt so forced that I was like, this is really dumb. But it's just like, you know, we all process emotions in different ways. And it's not that I didn't feel something, it's just that I had to take the information and, and look at it for what it was. And I couldn't react to the information.

Janae Thompson [02:34:05] I just needed to know, like, just what to do next. Like, just take another breath, you know, because it was so big and I knew that this would impact me. But in that moment, there had been nights that we'd been apart, like, so my life had not changed one bit yet. In reality, like, I was still in my house. I still had my kids. My husband was away, away just because he wasn't going to come back. This was not outside the realm of normal for me yet. And so that's kind of how I was interpreting all of this, I think,

Margi Dehlin [02:34:38] you know, as you're describing yourself and just how, you know. Yeah, mind altering, earth shattering. This is, in so many ways it reminds me of few A freeze response, honestly. And. And I think it's really important in traumatic situations, in times of, like, mental and emotional survival to just say, we don't choose how we cope with what we're given.

Janae Thompson [02:35:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:11] You know, it's some. It's a reaction.

Janae Thompson [02:35:13] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:15] And so that. That's what I feel from kind of what you're. What you're saying. We don't choose our thoughts either in those times. And anyway, I just feel, you know, I'm feeling all the feels for those moments. Thank you for going there and being willing to describe it a bit. And I also feel, you know, in an indirect way. You know, there are so many ways that you're feeling this situation. You have your partner, but there's also this large parent thing that in my mind, moments, oftentimes of times of trauma or where a reality flip happens in a really. In a moment is you. It's like a sharpened focus in a way where you have this realization of, like, I'm about to change their life.

Janae Thompson [02:36:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:12] Like, we're in the pre. But we're one step away from kind of all. All changing for them. And I'm hearing that from you too.

Janae Thompson [02:36:23] Yeah. And it's like we're in the last moment that this will ever be a semblance of reality. And how can I hold on to it and just keep it a little bit longer? Because I know I can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the freeze response. I've never really thought of it that way, but I think that that's insightful as far as, like, how I responded to that was, you know, just, everything stops. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:47] Yeah. Well, that's devastating. I also, the second reaction you had, who am I gonna have sex with? Was interesting because you guys weren't really being sexually intimate.

Janae Thompson [02:36:57] Well, it was because he was the only person I'd ever been with, and I was married to him, and now I'm not married anymore.

John Dehlin [02:37:03] Yeah, that makes sense.

Janae Thompson [02:37:04] And so it was like, this is a part of my life, regardless of, like, the phases that we've been through. And, like, this is a part of my life I'm used to. So now what am I supposed to do? Because, like, you're only supposed to have sex with your married partner. That's the opposite sex of you, and

John Dehlin [02:37:21] that'll come into play in part two.

Janae Thompson [02:37:22] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:37:23] But then the other thought I didn't hear you say was, what about our livelihood? So I guess maybe financially you were fine or.

Janae Thompson [02:37:32] Yeah. Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, I didn't think about that at All I just thought, my kids don't have a dad. I don't have an intimate partner anymore to share in physical intimacy with. And everything else, too. I mean, that was part of it. And everything in my life is gonna change. Those are the three things that just were really so present to me in that moment where I knew everything that I had founded my life on would no longer be.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:00] Yeah. I mean, those questions are so. They're so interesting because on a level, you have the parenting part of your identity. You have your. Your own identity with your partner and what that means, and then you have this existential the world as you know it. That's really interesting.

Janae Thompson [02:38:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's exactly kind of the questions I went through, because it's like, you know, the money is easy. You can make money doing anything. Right.

John Dehlin [02:38:31] And, well, some people can, other one can.

Janae Thompson [02:38:34] Well, everyone is capable of it. But it's like, yes, like, that's an easily solvable problem is where I'm coming from. But, like, you can't replace a child's father. You can replace an income. You can't replace a father. You can replace a home, or you can go live somewhere else, but you can't replace a partner. You can get a new partner, but you can't. I mean, death is so final. There's nothing you can do to undo that. And that's the concept that I didn't really have any understanding of, but I knew that I would have to figure it out because. Because in my world, when we hit a speed bump, you can undo it, go around it, figure it out, and fix it and make something as good or better. But, like, you know, like, when a person dies, you can't undy them.

John Dehlin [02:39:22] Yeah. Unless you're Jesus. And then he can resurrect.

Janae Thompson [02:39:25] True, true. If that happens. I mean. Yeah, like, even that. I, like, I go through the intricacies of those stories and I'm like, I don't know. But yes, supposedly. Supposedly, you know, but even that, I mean, I mean, that's a whole nother Mormon Stories podcast. Right.

John Dehlin [02:39:43] So I guess I think I've decided I want to split this up into two parts, because I think we're going to go a little bit over four hours. And so what I want to do, maybe for this part one, this will be kind of when your Mormon husband dies, kind of the episode. And then part two will be like the questioning, Rebuilding a life after your husband dies as a Mormon widow. Mom. Widow. Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:08] I don't know the words, but I guess I would like to end this episode by talking about everything up to his funeral that you still want to share. In terms of theology, religion, how the church dealt with it, just anything dealing with the Mormon or the really important personal aspects of his death. In your story, does that make sense?

Janae Thompson [02:40:31] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So when, you know, I found out about this and I told his parents, and I am processing it, and, you know, I'm like, okay, how do I reach out? Like, who do I call? What do I do? Who do I talk to? I just. I didn't. I didn't know. I was like, I don't even know who to call. So then I thought, okay, I'll call my parents. So I called my mom, told her.

Janae Thompson [02:40:55] She just couldn't believe it. I mean, she just started crying immediately, you know, And I'm sitting there on the phone thinking, like, I'm not crying. Why are you crying? You know? But again, like, different reactions, and she's. She's just more emotionally connected in that way, and things touch her. Whereas, you know, I'm just like, I gotta get this information out and figure it out. And she's like, well, do you want me to come up? And I was like, I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:21] I just.

Janae Thompson [02:41:22] So then I. I think that we had this conversation. She's like, well, I'm just gonna come up. So she, you know, got in the car, started driving up. I didn't really know. It wasn't, like, present to that. And then I just went up and I, like, went into my kid's room, looked at them all. They're all dead asleep. And I'm just thinking, like, how, like, I feel so sorry for you guys that you're gonna have to wake up to this. Like, this is not right. This shouldn't be happening. Like, how did this happen? Happen? And. And the other thing that started really coming up in my mind was, how did this happen?

Janae Thompson [02:41:52] Like, he is so capable. Like, how could this have happened? How could this be possible? Like, what happened? So then I start thinking, like, well, you know, he was. He was kind of in this territory where they're, like, really territorial. It's like, over Colorado City, you know, and if you know anything about that culture, it's kind of like this.

John Dehlin [02:42:08] Well, yeah, we didn't ask what happened. How if they don't.

Janae Thompson [02:42:11] Yeah, well, I didn't know yet. So, like, I'm like, what happened still

Margi Dehlin [02:42:15] makes sense to me.

Janae Thompson [02:42:16] And I'm like, what is if he was power paragliding and someone shot him? Because, like, he wouldn't have, like, gotten in an accident. What if this is mal. Like, there's malpractice, malplay in here. And, you know, like, what if some. And I'm just like. Now I'm like, wait, what happened? Because I didn't know. And so I don't know if you want me to tell you what happened now or as I find out, but, like, I can.

John Dehlin [02:42:39] It's up to you.

Janae Thompson [02:42:40] Go either way. Okay. So I'll. I'll just say what happened because that's easier to put it into context without, like, all this time of not knowing which. Which, that's what it was for me. And that experience was difficult.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:49] How did you not know?

Janae Thompson [02:42:52] It was, like, a week and a half. It was a long time. And because it was an unattended death, they took the body straight to Salt Lake. And so I didn't even see him for, like, seven days. And so I was still, like, watching the front door. Like, it wasn't really him. He's gonna walk through the door. And then every day would go by and he didn't. And then I'm like, oh, maybe it's real, you know, and so. And he had had a GoPro, so he had filmed. Like, the whole thing was on film. And so I was like, where's the video? Where's the video?

Janae Thompson [02:43:23] Where's the video? I need to know what happened. And so the police took the video. They watched it because it was an outward angle. You couldn't see him or really what happened, but you could kind of get a sense of it. And what we finally ended up, you know, figuring out from the video and everything that happened is he was. Was on these. These cliffs where they go up high, you know, and then they go flat, and then there's some hills down this way.

Janae Thompson [02:43:47] So he was on these cliffs that go up really high, then came to a plateau and then went into this, like, hilly area. Well, when wind does that, what wind does is it goes like this, you know, it kind of eddies and spins around, and then it kind of gets, like, flat over the flat part, and then it'll drop down, and then it'll eddy again. And so as he was along the edge of the high cliffs and then went into the plateau part, the wind was fine. It was when he kind of went into this, like, valley area, and there was more distinction between the altitude of the, you know, sky to the ground, and it was more like it was just a faster slope.

Understanding the Paragliding Accident

Janae Thompson [02:44:25] It wasn't like, the sheer edges of the cliffs, but it was flat and then it was a slope. That's where there was different space in the air. And with the winds as high as they were, the winds were eddying through that. And as he flew into that a wind, Eddie caught his parachute and just took his parachute down. So in the video, you see he's flying along, it's fine. And then all of a sudden, it's this bam. Like this. Something hits him, and it was wind.

Janae Thompson [02:44:53] And what was super interesting. And this, like, still adds to the credibility that we both had in this belief of, like, nothing can happen, and if something does, he'll know exactly what to do. So it's six seconds from the time you see this, you know, like, kind of gush of wind. You hear it, and he's on the ground dead, six seconds. And in that six seconds, he grabs his alternative parachute because he knows his parachute has been. And he deploys it. So he, like, in like, two seconds, he had got his reserve parachute out as he's spinning around, like, because it. Because when the wind got his parachute, it took him down.

Janae Thompson [02:45:33] So the wind is thrusting him to the ground. So it's faster than free falling. And he's spinning. And as he's spinning, like, all of these things are happening, all this input, and he pulls his reserve shoot. And the only reason that didn't save him is because he was just low enough that it didn't deploy. Like, the parachute didn't, like, come out all the way. Like, it was completely extended. It just wasn't deployed. And then, um, because he was at an accelerated fall, he was at a level where it maybe could have deployed, but because it was an accelerated fall, so he was just high enough that it.

Janae Thompson [02:46:09] It was fatal, and he was just low enough that his parachute didn't deploy. And so it was just like this sweet spot of, like, 50 to 100ft. If he had been lower, he could have survived. If he had been higher, his reserve chute could have saved him, you know, and so it's like, gosh, like, I. I really trusted that if anything were to happen, he would know what to do. And I was right. He did know what to do. And he was just in this, like, wrong spot for every single aspect of training that we were capable of, of, you know, expressing. And it didn't work because of that one little factor.

Janae Thompson [02:46:45] And it's like. But there were other factors, too. It's like, that went that night. The wind was very high. You know, it was higher than he should have been flying in. It was later than he usually goes out he was further than he usually goes. And so all these things start stacking on top of each other, and then that's what creates this inability to get through something, you know, and you. You can't fight nature. Like, you can't argue with nature and win. And. And this is where it's like, no, I think I can. So I'm going to try it. And then it doesn't work. And then in this case, place, death is the result.

John Dehlin [02:47:19] So I'm so sorry.

Janae Thompson [02:47:21] Yeah, so anyway, that's what happened. And, you know, then it was about, like, Then I had to start making all these decisions and, you know, like, where do you want the body scent and what do you want to do? And, yeah, do you. Like, what kind of a casket do you want? And I'm like, these. Like, these are decisions, like, we've just, like, barely talked about, talked about once in a while. We've never made decisions about this. Like, yeah, I don't want to buy a casket and bury it. Like, that seems so stupid. And then I'm starting to ask myself, like, what are these customs we have around death?

Janae Thompson [02:47:53] Like, why do we do these cement boxes? And why do we spend all this money on these really nice wood boxes and then bury them? And, like, this is all really weird to me. Like, this is just weird. Like, where do these customs come from about how we. And why do we fill them with all these chemicals and, like, why do we put makeup on them and make they look horrible? Like. So I just started, like, going through this process of this.

John Dehlin [02:48:17] Also, in Mormonism, you're buried in your temple clothes.

Janae Thompson [02:48:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:48:20] Which is your baker cap and your white robe and your, you know, the green apron and all that, Right?

Janae Thompson [02:48:25] Yeah. So we. So the. The funeral home that we went through, they're like, well, do you want us to get all new temple clothes for him? And I was like, yeah. I decided. I was like, well, like, okay, what do I do with his body? What do I do? What do I do? And I'm just asking myself this question. And then I felt like I was on this walk with my mom, and I. I felt like I heard this voice come to me and say, I want to be cremated. And I was like, oh, Grant, is that you? You know, like. And I was like, of course you do, because your body looks horrible, and you don't want people to see that, because I was like, the crush.

Janae Thompson [02:48:55] Yeah. Yeah. And he, you know, like, he. He did have that body image, and I was so deep into that connection with how he would feel about how he looked that I knew he would not like an open casket. And at the same time I was struggling with that because, because I was like people, like, I think it's part of the whole process. Like if you see them, you get the closure, you know. So like, do I take that away from everybody? I'm not sure. And if I cremate, you know, like I know the church has said you shouldn't do that and I think that was kind of rescinded.

Janae Thompson [02:49:26] And, and then this is where like a theological question comes up. Like, if an all powerful God can't like put together the ashes of someone, it's all chemical element anyway. And if a God can't, he can't like play with the elements to make whatever he wants like that, that makes no sense to me that God can't resurrect a cremated body. Because I'd heard that many times, you know, and I was just like, well, if that's true, then that's ridiculous.

Janae Thompson [02:49:52] So, you know, I was like, I don't have a problem with cremating. Some of, you know, I got a little bit of pushback. Like, but nobody was really like, oh, you shouldn't do that because of the state that I was in. And so I didn't get, I didn't get a lot of like any input on any of the decisions I had to make. And I think that was just like people just were afraid to say anything. Like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. And so I felt like super isolated and alone making these really intense decisions. And I didn't really have an opinion on a lot of them.

Janae Thompson [02:50:23] Like, so I was like, well, I don't want to buy a casket and bury it. That seems like a waste of money. So they're like, oh, well, you can rent caskets. I'm like, really? Okay, I'll just rent one. And I decided to do an open casket. And you know, and they're like, you have to make this decision right away because you know, if you don't make it within the next few hours, we're not going to be able to get the all these like formulas inside, you know. And I was just like, oh, this is so weird. Like, can't we just like love him and then bury him?

Janae Thompson [02:50:51] Like, why does it have to be so complicated? But anyway, I was like, well, I guess I'll just go along with the process because that's how it's done and I don't know another way. And yeah, okay, go ahead and do the things and so we ended up.

Janae Thompson [02:51:07] I was like, you know, I don't really want to focus on life. I want to. Or on death. I want to focus on life. So I planned a celebration of life in St. George and one in Salt Lake and then just an open casket right before the funeral so that, you know, anybody that wanted to be there could. But it wasn't going to be like this big funeral thing. And so we drove him back to Salt Lake and, and you know, planned and prepared for everything on the way home. This was another thing that was just like really special to me.

Janae Thompson [02:51:35] It was like the middle of July and in Utah, it's really hot in July. And I'm driving home and it's just raining and this thunderstorm is like incredible. It's just like thunder all over the place, lightning all over the place. And I was just like. And, and all these tears and by the sun time I was feeling really like the sadness of it. And I, I just felt like, you know, the heavens are weeping for me. Like, this is, this is my storm. Like, this is, this is the heavens, like expressing like, we feel you, we see you, we hear you, you know, and we're with you.

Janae Thompson [02:52:10] And the lightning, I mean, Grant was always playing with fire. I'm like, ah, he's up there like playing with the lightning bolts and you know, exploring all his new talents that he's got with, you know, all of his new non. Limitations now that he's out of his body and he's just having so much fun out there, you know, and like telling myself all these stories, you know. But at the same time it was, it was really meaningful because it connected with, you know, his life and how I felt like the heavens were responding to where I was at. And you know, it rarely rains in July in Utah, so it was like this is.

Janae Thompson [02:52:40] And it rained every day that I was there. And then I went back to St. George and it stopped and I was like, you know, maybe I'm just seeing this. I don't know if this is reality, but it felt very, very customized to where I was at. And I, I really felt, you know, loved and, and seen and understood just from what was happening outside of me.

John Dehlin [02:53:00] Did you announce it on the YouTube channel? Did you let everyone know?

Janae Thompson [02:53:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:05] Fans want to come to the funeral? Yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:53:07] Yeah. So we announced it on the, on the YouTube channel. It was just obviously like really somber. It's still on there, you know, like if you Google Grant Thompson death, you know, that's usually the first video that pops up that our hosts at the time just made that announcement, I did say, you know, I was like, I, so many people love him. I want to give them the opportunity to come and see this. And, you know, this potentially could be another good opportunity to share about, you know, how we view life after death and what's going to happen and, like, share the gospel. Because, you know, this isn't the end.

Janae Thompson [02:53:41] And, you know, this is like an opportunity for the whole world to, to kind of experience what happens through the process of death when, you know, you're sealed in the temple and you're gonna be together forever and you have these beliefs around this isn't the end, even though this is definitely the end.

John Dehlin [02:54:01] So I'm just noticing that. I was just looking up him on Google and this is like the New York Times covered this story. NBC News, USA Today, the BBC. This is a global news story. Tmz, the sun, which is in the uk. Like, okay, so I, and I, I, I apologize. I had never seen your YouTube channel before this morning. Really?

Janae Thompson [02:54:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:27] And I, I, I don't think I'd heard of this because I, I guess I'm not plugged in to that scene. I don't know.

Janae Thompson [02:54:34] Yeah, well, it's okay. I mean, we always used to make this joke between us, like, we don't watch YouTube. We make YouTube, so, you know, we don't have time to watch it because we make, make it so. But, but yeah, I mean, the, the reach that it had. I mean, this was a world throughout the whole world. Everybody, you know, I mean, we had fans in every part of the world. And so when this happened, it was just like, what, you know, it felt like everybody kind of lost this icon that was part of the YouTube creation.

John Dehlin [02:55:02] Is it kind of a celebrity? Because, I mean, Access Hollywood, like, that's.

Janae Thompson [02:55:05] Yeah, I know. It's crazy.

John Dehlin [02:55:06] Yeah. Cause I'd never, I never heard of them, so.

Janae Thompson [02:55:08] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this was our celebrity too.

John Dehlin [02:55:11] Or are you.

Janae Thompson [02:55:12] I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm. I was kind of like the wife of Grant Thompson.

John Dehlin [02:55:15] Did you guys do red carpet stuff?

Janae Thompson [02:55:17] Yeah, we did some of that. We went to some events and, you know, it depended on if we could make it or not. And, I mean, it wasn't a lot of that, but we did do some really fun things. And, you know, we have the, the photographs and all that of the red carpet. And I mean, it, it was still relatively a new world. Every time we went to, like, an event, it was like the first one they'd ever done. So we just, like, it was just what we were doing, and we didn't put it into context of, like, we're famous youtubers until the end, you know, and then it was like, oh, yeah, we're famous YouTubers.

Janae Thompson [02:55:47] That's like, what we do. But. But until then, it was. It was our life and our family, and, you know, we were just making videos in our basement. That's the reality of it. Like, so did we feel like celebrities? Not really. When we went out and got recognized, it was like, oh, yeah, this is a little bigger than we thought.

Janae Thompson [02:56:03] And, you know, even that's kind of an adjustment to figure out, like, oh, how do I interact with this? Like, people coming up at the store and like, are you Grant Thompson? Are you guys the king of random? Did you do this project? And it's like, yeah, we did. And they're like, oh, my gosh. You're like, you know, I. I've done this project and I've done this project, and I've watched you from here, and, you know, now I'm going to college and I'm getting my engineering degree because of. It's. It's really amazing. It's really amazing to see the impact of how. When you share your gifts, how they affect other people's lives.

Janae Thompson [02:56:34] And so there's that beautiful aspect of it, you know, when you're giving your life for something, how it really changes other people's lives. And that was part of our mission.

Grief, Parenting, and the Mormon Funeral

Margi Dehlin [02:56:44] I'm curious, you know, how you experienced the balancing of feeling a deep personal loss and specifically to. With your children, you know, losing a dad and having to balance the public loss, though, and how they felt about that.

Janae Thompson [02:57:06] Yeah, that's such a good question. And if I'm being totally honest, I don't know that I've processed my personal loss with it, because I have. I've been in everyone else's experience with the loss. And that's not to say I haven't felt the loss. I have. I mean, when I'm, you know, laying in bed by myself every single night, night, I feel the loss, but I don't feel like I've allowed it to, like, really touch me and impact me. Because I'm taking care of my kids, I'm taking care of, you know, like, the business I'm dealing with, you know, the logistics of that. I'm talking to the employees, I'm helping with the channel.

Janae Thompson [02:57:40] I'm doing all these different things. And again, I'm just, like, continually going outside of myself to make sure everybody else is okay. Around, you know, what happened. And that's not to say I'm neglecting myself, because I'm not, you know, I do feel a deep sense of kind of like, crippling inability to engage in life at times.

Janae Thompson [02:58:03] And it's not because I'm not capable. It's just because I'm, like, so overwhelmed with everything that's happened that, you know, in that first year, I. I would try to commit to things, but then that day would, you know, I'd wake up and I'm like, I'm not going to be able to get out of bed today. And there's really nothing I can do about it. And I just have to wait until I feel like I can. But it's like, the moment I can, I'll do again. And so.

Janae Thompson [02:58:24] But, so. But even in those experiences where I'm like, okay, I'll honor how I feel, I'll stay in bed, I'll do all these things, I'm not feeling the loss I'm feeling. How do I get through this to the next thing so I can keep going, if that makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:37] So survival.

Janae Thompson [02:58:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:39] Is kind of what I'm hearing.

Janae Thompson [02:58:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:41] By staying super busy.

Janae Thompson [02:58:42] Yeah. And that's also a defense mechanism that I use because it feels good. I mean, I've done a lot of things since he died. I, you know, I've moved my family twice. I've bought a house. I renovated the whole thing. I've, you know, restructured the entire business. I've written a book. I've, you know, I've run a blog, like. So the book that I'm writing is not about this yet that's coming. This is just a book. I'm kind of. I love to write. So I have a blog where I kind of go through a lot of the things that.

John Dehlin [02:59:07] Is it a public blog?

Janae Thompson [02:59:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:08] What's it called?

Janae Thompson [02:59:09] It's called. Follow theenergy of the day dot com.

John Dehlin [02:59:12] Okay.

Janae Thompson [02:59:13] So I've been doing that for two years, and. And I've really just been like, focusing on. On finding myself, healing myself, and, like, being really in touch with reality and accepting reality and then trying to make the most beautiful situation out of every reality, no matter how undesirable reality is, because that's kind of the process. So in the loss, I guess I found so many things that, again, I don't feel like I've suffered from a loss within the loss I'm suffering, if. If that makes sense.

Janae Thompson [02:59:53] Because I. I keep looking for things to. To fill the space where the loss would Be. And so, you know, again, like, just being totally honest, like, I don't think that I've been. I've had the courage yet to allow myself to feel that loss. And I've been able to keep myself so busy through the whole process that, you know, it's been.

Janae Thompson [03:00:12] It's been there that I can do that. So, Yeah, I mean, it's interesting how we approach grief as humans, because it's like, in some aspects, I still don't feel like I want to accept that he's gone, and, like, that's not gonna change. So I'm like. It's almost like I'm getting everything ready for, you know, when he comes back, which, logically, I know that's never gonna happen.

Janae Thompson [03:00:35] I understand, you know, all of the logistics of how this happens, but at the same time, it's like in the back of your mind, I'm wanting to say, how can I fix this still? So I choose other things to fix. And, you know, this year's been interesting because I think I've gotten closer than I ever have to. Just really feeling that loss and allowing myself to feel that. But I just do it in little steps because it's too much to, you know, just say, okay, I'm ready.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm just checking out your blog and looks like you've done a little YouTube video. And anyway, well, that's. That's really powerful, and that's really hard, what you've been through. People. I don't think anybody can imagine what that's like unless they go through it.

Janae Thompson [03:01:20] Yeah. Yeah, you can't. And it's one of those things where it's like, you know, if you lose a spouse and a child, those are. Those are experiences that are so much more. More impactful in your everyday life than it is when, you know, your mom dies. You love your mom, but it doesn't affect your everyday life. You know, you lose a spouse, and it's like every aspect of your life is different every minute of the day. You lose a child, and it's, like, similar to that, you know? And so those two losses where, you know, they're way younger than you think they should be, and they're a part of your everyday life. It's like those are just. Just different. Different losses that people. Not many people experience and not many people can comprehend. I mean, it does happen, but that's not the normal experience.

John Dehlin [03:02:04] You know, other than your miscarriage. You didn't lose a child. Right?

Janae Thompson [03:02:07] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:07] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:08] Do you want to Share what your kids reaction was when you told them. We never.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:13] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:02:13] So my oldest boy, he had stayed up that night and this, I mean, this was like. This just broke my heart. The night we were way waiting, he got on his one wheel and he just drove to the park. And he didn't tell me where he was going. And I was like, I just see him like going off. I'm like, where's my child going? It's like midnight and he's just like taking off.

Janae Thompson [03:02:34] So I get in the car and I go try to find him. And he's at the park. He went straight to where his dad was parked and he's just sitting there on the table. I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm waiting for dad to come home. I'm like, son, first of all, we're missing somebody. You leave and now I don't know where you are. So now that's two people that are missing. Like, this is not helpful. Helpful. And you can't just wait here on the park bench. Like, you have to be in a safe place. But he just. I mean, he wanted to make sure his dad got home, you know, And I just was like, in my mind, even at that moment, I was like, yeah, you're gonna be waiting here forever, so we gotta go home.

Janae Thompson [03:03:08] You know, I didn't say that to him, but I was like, we need to wait in a safe place and let's try and get some sleep. So I brought him back home and he didn't wanna come. And I think he had a hard time falling asleep that night. And he finally did, and then in the morning, he's my oldest and he. The first thing he said is, did they find dad? And. And this is where it's like, gosh, I wish there was a handbook to like, tell you how you tell your child that their parent is dead, but there's not a handbook for that. And so it's like he was like, is he dead?

Janae Thompson [03:03:38] And I was like, yeah. Because that's what he asked. He's like, did they find dad? I was like, yeah. And then he said, is he dead? And I was like, yeah. And he just kind of looked at me like, silence, you know, and he. I don't know that he was even like comprehending it because it was just such a brash conversation of the truth.

Janae Thompson [03:04:04] But how do you process that when it's. That is the conversation. And, you know, and I think then I, you know, started explaining, yeah, he was paragliding and he crashed and he didn't, you know, survive the crash. And you know, my son's like contemplating it. And then, and then what he said was just really another just interesting thing. Like, he's like, can I have his GoPro? I was like, what? You know, like, let's not get onto the things like, this is your dad. Like, I just, I was like, I don't know, you know, and then, and then it's like as soon as, as I said yes, like he's dead, I just saw this like slump happen in his little body, you know, and then he asked the, you know, the question about the camera.

Janae Thompson [03:04:53] And then he just went into the other room and we have swings all over our house. And I like to leave the swings up and he just like, he just started swinging, you know, And I was like, okay, you know, and then the other kids slowly woke up and I didn't tell them.

Janae Thompson [03:05:06] And I said to him, I was like, I don't want to tell the other kids until we're ready. And so then my mom got there and we took them all into my room and I was like, okay, I guess I'm going to tell him now. And my mom's here, so I guess this is how you do it. And so I just told the kids, you know, like, dad was in an accident last night and he died, so he's not coming home. And my 5 year old at the time just kind of looked at me like, What? And my 9 year old at the time, or 8, he was 8.

Janae Thompson [03:05:32] And he just looked at me and just got up and ran out of the room and started crying. And I was like, that's an interesting response because he. My less emotional kid usually. And then my baby, he's 2, and he's like, no, Daddy's not, not coming home, you know, and he just said like, he's like, no, that's not okay for you to say, Dad's not coming home. And it was just so cute and sweet and you know, and then I was like, you know, if I could go back and do it, what I would do is I would take each one of them individually. I'd sit down with them, I'd hug them, I'd hold them and I'd say, I have something, right?

Janae Thompson [03:06:04] Really hard to tell you. And this is going to change your whole life and you're not going to want to hear it. And I wish I didn't have to tell you, you know, like kind of prep them. And I wish I could have done it individually so, you know, that's something that if I could go back and do it better, that's what I would do. So, you know, maybe that will help someone at some point to do something like that a little bit better. But, you know, I, I, I did it the way I did it, and it, everything about it was just hard.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:28] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:06:29] Yeah. And they all had completely different reactions.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:35] As we're kind of wrapping up this episode, is there anything you want to say about the Mormon funeral or the way the church or its members reacted in positive ways and maybe in not so positive ways. And I saw a blog post about how to support someone when they're grieving. So I don't know if you want to, if you want to incorporate any of those ideas into this kind of final thing to talk about.

Janae Thompson [03:06:59] Yeah. So, you know, I just recently, about a year ago, had a, a girlfriend who was a college roommate lose her husband. They have five kids, and it's like, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm reliving this through you. Like, I just went through this two years ago, you know. Yeah. And she's going through this now. And as I watched her kind of interact with the funeral and like, everything that was happening, there's this space and, and I've heard many people who have had, like, incredible losses like, like this talk about the same thing that happens. It's like you, you're in this phase of, like, shock, and a lot of, you know, what I would call grace.

Janae Thompson [03:07:32] It's like your mind's not really functioning, but you can interact with the world, but you're not there, but you can still get things done. It's very interesting. And so, like, during that time, yeah, like a disassociation. And during that time, I think that there is a of lot, lot of space for people to be really supportive. And I, I, I, I felt like during that time, people were kind of distance and were like, I don't know what to do. And, you know, but I feel like one of the things that was really great is I, I had a whole group of friends and family come up and just stay at my house, you know, and just being there felt so good and so safe for me.

Janae Thompson [03:08:10] And I didn't have to talk to him. I didn't have to do anything but just being there. And that's an impactful time because you are disassociated. But if you're left alone, it's really scary. But if you have someone there and it doesn't matter what you say, because the person's probably not even gonna remember it, you know, but just, like, showing up as a supportive space. Like, there's a lot of impact to be had during that time. So don't be afraid to interact with the people. Like, right after it happens. Like, one of my friends was like, oh, I wanted to give you space. I was like, I felt abandoned, you know, Like, I didn't want space.

Janae Thompson [03:08:43] I wanted people around me. And probably everybody's a little bit different on that. But. But one of the biggest things I would say is don't be afraid to do what you're feeling like you want to do. If you feel like you want to call them, call them. That doesn't mean I'm going to answer, you know, or if you want to come over and bring cupcakes, that doesn't mean I'm going to eat them. But if you come over, like, I might feel great or I might not want to see. It doesn't matter. Just do what you feel like you can do and want to do, and that's what's impactful and meaningful.

John Dehlin [03:09:13] Yeah. I think the Jewish people have a ritual called Sitting Shiva where like, everybody shows up at the house.

Janae Thompson [03:09:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:19] It's like a whole weekend, I think.

Janae Thompson [03:09:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:21] Where just. You just go.

Janae Thompson [03:09:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:23] And you just hang around.

Janae Thompson [03:09:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:24] And if you're not actually talking to the person who's grieving, you're talking to community members or siblings or children or just. It's just like, community showing up to be a presence around the time of the death.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:37] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:09:38] And I think where I was coming from, it's like, well, we should all be doing something. And, you know, I wish I could have felt like that was okay because. Because that's exactly what I needed. And I couldn't be really present in it because I was like, well, I have to entertain everybody. And, you know, everyone's like, no, you don't have to entertain us. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, and just, you know, like, the culture around death, it's like, rather than it being taboo and we don't know what to say, what if we could just let it be what it is and sit in it and be okay saying the wrong thing? Cause it actually might be the right thing. But if you're afraid to say it because it's the wrong thing and you don't know, and then you don't say it, then you.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:13] We.

Janae Thompson [03:10:13] I see us constantly missing out on these opportunities to connect out of fear or uncertainty.

John Dehlin [03:10:20] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:10:21] Okay, so. And then as far as the funeral, you know, just. I wanted so one of the things that I referenced, so I spoke at his funeral and I just felt like no one can honor him the way I could because I know him, like every detail about him. And so I really wanted to be, be the one to speak. I had another speaker that was really great and you know, we did some songs and my objective around the funeral and this was because I wanted to really show the life he lived, the intention, the energy that he lived with.

Janae Thompson [03:10:56] Like, I wanted people to come to the funeral and feel like they were edified, uplifted, motivated to live a better life and inspire. And so that was my objective with what I spoke about in the funeral. And, and then one of the things that I talked about, he just loved paying tithing, you know, and in the Doctrine and Covenants there's this scripture that talks about, it's like it'll save you from being burned at the last day or whatever, you know, and, you know, we kind of joke that it's fire insurance. And so, you know, I like, I kind of leaned over and I was like, I sure hope that's paying off for you now, you know, and like tried to make it like kind of this, like, I know, isn't it like this light hearted thing, but like he was so committed to paying tithing, he just loved it so much that I'm like, you know, I hope that's true for you, you know, because now that's when it's going to be tested.

Janae Thompson [03:11:44] But at that point I was like, you know, this isn't a separation, this is just goodbye for right now. We're going to see each other again. This is a graduation, it's not a death, it's just a transition. I mean, this is kind of where I was coming from in all the things that I was saying at the funeral because this is what I had been conditioned to believe. And this is how death, you know, every time I was at a funeral, these are the things that you say and you know, families are together forever. And so, you know, like, this is just, it's fine, like you're gonna see him again and everything's fine. Like that's kind of really like the nonchalant approach that was like, oh, well, you know, it's okay because you'll see him again.

John Dehlin [03:12:24] And I guess on a level that provides a lot of just support, it's just like, hey, this really isn't a tragedy, like it's an inconvenience, but we're gonna just pick up right where we left off when I die. And Everything's gonna be great.

Janae Thompson [03:12:35] Yeah. And I think in the moment, like, right after it happens, because life hasn't really been altered. Those were comforting words.

John Dehlin [03:12:41] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:12:42] It's not until, like, six months later, and it's like, oh, you're gonna see him again. And I'm like, well, I haven't seen him for six months. And, like, life has gotten really hard since then. So that's. Don't. That's not comforting. Do not tell me that again, because I actually don't want to see him again, you know, and that's when that shift comes. But in those first moments, it's like, oh, yeah, it's okay. Like, you know, I'll see him again. It'll. It'll feel like the blink of an eye. 50 years will go by, and I'll look back, and they'll be like, oh, it was nothing. You know, like, these are the kinds of things that I was saying and feeling and believing. And, you know, even if it's, you know, a couple years or 50 years, it will all feel the same, I'm sure. You know, I think it's hard, too,

Margi Dehlin [03:13:23] because kind of right after. Right after someone dies, oftentimes, you know, there are sort of stages to grief, and they're not organized in any way or. Yeah, they're not linear. So it's interesting, right, because when you have a loss like that, it really depends on where you are in that moment. And I think oftentimes when we attend memorial service or we attend funerals, you know, for the family members, the really close family members, most of the time they happen so close to the death and all those decisions that need to be made, you haven't even really started. For the most part, we're still in shock.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:12] You know, when we're attending funerals and witnessing people give time, talks, or it's oftentimes the days after where it kind of really settles, and then the grief or loss process begins to really kind of take root. I just think it's interesting because I think the way we show up as a culture is like a flash photo.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:36] It's very much like a memorial service. And that's kind of our concept of death. It's like a moment or a meeting of two hours when really it's this whole process where you feel just right as such a myriad of feelings and emotions, and it looks so different from person to person. And so holding it all with, like, a lot of gentleness and softness for people and realizing that there's a lot missing when it goes to, like, what's going on on the inside or what's to come if we're only looking at a memorial service for people?

Janae Thompson [03:15:13] Yeah. Yeah. And during that whole first month, I just felt like I'm not even on the ground. I felt like I was just as angelic as my husband was, you know, Like, I just felt like I was being held in the hand of God and that's the only way I was able to get through this. And I even remember, you know, like a month after two weeks, and like, he. He. It felt really close. And then after three weeks, it. It started. I started to feel this dissonance a little bit. And then four weeks, it was like. It was almost as if I was feeling this hand starting to set me down.

Janae Thompson [03:15:44] Like, o little one, it's time for you to walk on your own. And I was like, no, no, no, no. Do not set me down. Like, let me just stay in here forever. But it's like, no, this is the process of grace. Like, I'm going to hold you for a little while and then I'm going to put you down and you got to walk on your own. And I'm like, nope, don't want to walk on my own. Don't do that to me. Like, I will not function. Because now I'm starting to see what this life is really going to be like. It's been long enough that I'm starting to actually see that.

Janae Thompson [03:16:06] And this is going to be way too difficult. But also having that feeling of like, God's holding me right now, and that is how I feel, and that's what I believe. And it was very comforting and beautiful and wonderful. And it's the reality of what I was experiencing, like how I interpreted what I was experiencing. And it felt that way. And I mean, even now, when I think back on that, it's this very peaceful, heavenly feeling of just, things are as they are, you're gonna be okay. And you don't have to think about any of that. You're just being held. And it's a really, really.

Janae Thompson [03:16:43] It's one of those feelings I wish that I could explain in words and I can't. And I wish everybody could feel it. And, you know, maybe people have felt this, but the closest thing I would describe to it is, you know, on each day when my babies were born, that first day that they were born, it's just like there's this magic in the air and it's so happy because you've got this brand new little baby. And it's like they're just sent from heaven, you know, and this is like the opposite end of that. It's like there's another transcendence transition into or out of life. Right.

Janae Thompson [03:17:14] And there's the same feeling that's around it. And so that was another interesting aspect of like how I'm feeling around this, you know, transition. And it reminded me a lot of a birth too, which, you know, helped me connect life process here. Like, this is all part of it.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:34] I love that. That's really beautiful. It reminds me also of you kind of talking earlier about. About not, you know, oftentimes when we think about the loss of someone, it's like someone being taken or something being taken or reality is being taken or love being or whatever, the presence, the physical presence of someone, you know, but also that something can be given too. That things can be, you know, you can loss, but you're also given.

Janae Thompson [03:18:07] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:08] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [03:18:08] And this is where the concept of, you know, every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. It's a song, like really famous song. But anyway, like, that just gave me a whole new perspective on that because, you know, I think of a new beginning as the birth of a baby, but that's also the end of your life without a child, you know, and, you know, the death of my husband is, is a new life without him, you know, or it's a new life in myself. I mean, there's just so many, so many ways to look at it when you're willing to again, like, ask yourself those hard questions.

Janae Thompson [03:18:43] And it's like, well, it doesn't mean I am glad he died. It doesn't mean I wanted him to die. But, you know, I've got to ask myself another question. So what now? What is my life going to be like? And how can I make it actually better than when he was here? Like. And is that okay? Okay. And I hope it is because that's what I want and I don't want to feel guilty about wanting that.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:05] Well, that is the perfect way to end part one of your story, which we had envisioned as only being a one parter, but it's too good. And now we got to figure out how to do the second part. But Janae Thompson, this has been really powerful.

Janae Thompson [03:19:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:19:21] And we still have the meat, I think. The meat. Yeah, there's still a of lot wanted

Janae Thompson [03:19:24] to talk about really fun things.

John Dehlin [03:19:26] You didn't come to me wanting to talk about your husband's death and grief. You wanted to talk about like what happens after and being a widow Woman, you know, in Mormonism, dating, dealing with the aftermath.

Janae Thompson [03:19:44] Yeah. Because after that, that whole transition like this, I mean, this thing happened, but then it's the life after that, and. And it's like, oh, the life I had before does not work at all anymore. And so then it's like, okay, what else is not working? Yeah, there's a lot.

John Dehlin [03:20:02] Yeah. So that's going to be part two. So thank you, Janae Thompson, for part one. This has been really powerful.

Janae Thompson [03:20:10] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:20:11] I know it's going to help a lot of people. And, Margi, it's always so lovely to have you riding shotgun.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:15] So glad I'm here. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:17] So please don't go away. Come right back for part two of our interview with Jana, where we're going to talk about, you know, rebuilding your life as a Mormon widow. Is that the way to describe.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:30] How do you identify? How do you.

Janae Thompson [03:20:32] Do you talk about your. Yeah, that's. That's a good question. Like, this was another funny question my kids after asked me, like, just a couple days after dad died. You know, they're like, mom, are you a widow now? And I was like, yeah, I guess so. I mean, yeah, that's the term for this situation. Like, do I consider myself a widow? No, I don't define myself that way. I'm a mother. You know, I'm a woman. I'm living my life, I'm expressing my dreams. Like, that's kind of how I relate to myself. And that's just one of the many titles that can describe a certain aspect of who I am.

John Dehlin [03:21:06] Yeah, maybe like rebuilding your life after you. Your husband dies. You know, something like that. Okay, well, can't wait. Thank you so much. Oh, go ahead.

Janae Thompson [03:21:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:14] Oh.

Janae Thompson [03:21:14] I was going to say, if you want to use the word widow, I'm totally fine with that. Like, however. Yeah, I think actually that would probably be more powerful for a title. So for that aspect. Yes, you can say widow.

John Dehlin [03:21:24] What do you know about YouTube titles?

Janae Thompson [03:21:25] Yes, I do. That's why I was like, that's a much better title word. Just so you know, anything you want

John Dehlin [03:21:32] to plug before we end this episode, other than your amazing channel, which you don't need my plugs, but tkor.

Janae Thompson [03:21:39] Well, you know, just like, if people want to hear more about, like, the whole grief process and what I've been through, my blog is a really good resource for that.

John Dehlin [03:21:47] That's follow theenergy of the day dot com. We'll have a link to it in the show notes.

Janae Thompson [03:21:51] Yes. And that was one of the things Grant would say, just every day when we were just trying to live our, you know, best life is I'm just going to follow the energy of the day and see where it takes me, you know? And I was like, that's a really great moment mantra. I'm happy you can do that, but I've got too much to do. Right. Know, like, I've. I've had a shift in my perspective on that, and so it's a really meaningful concept to me.

John Dehlin [03:22:11] Beautiful.

Janae Thompson [03:22:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:12] All right, thanks, Janae. Thanks, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:14] Yep. Thank you.

Janae Thompson [03:22:15] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:22:15] All right, join us. Come right back for part two with Janae. Thanks, everybody.

Part Two: Widowhood and Mormon Sealing Policies

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1756

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 28, 2023, and we are going to be answering in this part, this episode of Mormon Stories podcast. What do you do when you are a Mormon widow, when your husband passes away unexpectedly, when you have four young children, sons, in this case? How do you rebuild a life when kind of Mormonism and kind of orthodox, conservative Mormonism is pretty much all you've known your whole life? And when you've had one partner, so to speak, in your whole life? I am joined, thrilled to be joined by my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:41] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Welcome back. And we're in part two of our interview with Janae Thompson. Hey, Janae.

Janae Thompson [00:00:48] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] We survived your part one and lunch.

Janae Thompson [00:00:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] How you doing?

Janae Thompson [00:00:52] We did, and here we are back again, ready to go.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] I'm like, you want to do this another day? And she's like, nope, we're finishing this out.

Janae Thompson [00:00:58] I'm here. Let's get it done.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] So we just finished three hours and 15 minutes or so with Jana in part one. Jana and her late husband were the creators of a super popular YouTube channel called the King of Random, or TKOR. And last episode was just about her Mormon childhood, her eventually gaining a testimony in the church as an early adult and kind of what it was like to go to BYU and date and leave BYU without a husband. But eventually she talked about meeting Grant, the wonderful life they built together with four kids and their amazing YouTube channel, the King of Random. And we ended last episode with Grant dying from a paragliding accident. Motorized paragliding in St. George.

Janae Thompson [00:01:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] And we ended by just talking about grief and her children and how she processed that death. And what we're in store for now is what does. Let's just say a Mormon woman in her 30s who has four young kids and just lost her husband. How do you regroup? And what are the complexities of rebuilding a life in that scenario? And there'll be some faith journey stuff. There'll be some sexuality stuff, some being a single person or a widow in the Mormon church stuff. And what else? What am I missing, Janae?

Janae Thompson [00:02:28] Yeah, just the whole process through, you know, what arises when you're faced with questions like that. Because they're. They're hard questions.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Yeah. So, all right. So we ended literally with the funeral, and I guess you cremated. Is that right? Cremated, Grant.

Janae Thompson [00:02:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] Yeah. And you talked about. I loved how you ended last episode, by the way. If you haven't listened to part one, pause this, go back and watch part one, and then come back for part two. You'll get much more out of it. But I loved how you left it. You. There was, like, this just, like a maternal glow that you have as soon as you have a baby. There was kind of this post. Post grant death glow that you said you had for about a month after his death. And then you felt like heavenly Father. And I'll say that in air quotes, after about a month, kind of set you down and said, all right, now it's time for you to figure this out. And that's kind of where we left off.

Janae Thompson [00:03:21] Yeah. Yeah. And I was not ready for that. But, you know, as. As in life, time goes on and life continues whether or not your partner is with you. And after someone dies, I mean, I think that's one of the hardest things that I was facing at that time was how can everybody keep living when, you know, this has happened in my life and how do I do this? And I think the how do I do this? Question led up to, okay, what does this mean? Like, I've got four little tiny boys. All my kids were under the age of 10. My baby was 2.

Janae Thompson [00:03:55] And I just thought, you know, like, these kids should be growing up with a dad. You know, I've been sealed to my husband, so we're gonna be together again. But, like, what about the next 40 years? And, like, what about raising these kids? I just on my own. And then what happens? Like, we die and, you know, we're one big happy family again. I did all the hard work on earth to raise, like, the. The little kids, like, all that whole phase he got to check out for, and now, like, we just get back together and, you know, all this glory of, you know, his posterity and all that.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] And I think I. I think what you're kind of referring to maybe is something we should kind of highlight. It's. Mormonism has its. As its selling point, eternal families.

Janae Thompson [00:04:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] A missionary will go wherever and just say, hey, would you like to find out how you can live with your family for eternity? And that's the first time many people are like, what, wait, I'm not going to live with my family for eternity? And it's like, yeah, you're not. Unless. Unless you join the church and go to the temple and do all the ordinances and get married in the temple and live righteously, then you can live forever. And for me, for 45, maybe 48 years, I just thought, well, that's the best part of Mormonism. The best part of Mormonism for sure is it's teachings on the eternal family.

Janae Thompson [00:05:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] But it, you know, your situation helps highlight that it's not always the most amazing thing.

Janae Thompson [00:05:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] So talk. Let's slow down and just talk about, like, okay, your eternal companion dies in your 30s, and let's just say you've got another 60 years to go.

Janae Thompson [00:05:30] Yeah. So my question was like, okay, am I just, like, gonna bide my time here on Earth until I die and then we can be together again, or do I look for someone else? If I look else, what's that gonna mean? Because I can't.

Janae Thompson [00:05:44] Well, so then there's an issue with that. And, you know, for the first six months, I didn't. I mean, I didn't even, like, really focus on these questions. But as life went on and life got harder and, you know, the things that people would say, and this isn't a criticism on anything that can be said to someone that's lost a spouse, but especially within the culture, things like, well, isn't it such a blessing? Families are eternal? Or isn't it so great that you guys are sealed and you're going to see them again? Or, you know, this is not the end of your marriage. And at first it was like, yeah, okay, yeah, thank goodness.

Janae Thompson [00:06:27] I feel so much better. And then after time would go by, I would hear these things and I'd be like, nope, our marriage is over. Like, I'm pretty sure every day I'm living, I'm not married anymore. In the eyes of the law, not married. Marriage is over. Like, what we had was what we had, and it's over. And the truth is, I don't know what it's gonna look like in the future. I don't. I don't know if I'm gonna see him again. I know that's what I've always been taught, but he is really gone. Like, every day I live without him is another day that shows me our family is no longer together.

Janae Thompson [00:07:02] I am no longer married. And so then I'm starting to ask myself these things that I've always been taught. I'm living the opposite of them. Reality is not what I've been taught. And I kind of. I kind of phased into this anger towards those things. So when I would hear that, I would be like, well, if marriage is eternal.

Janae Thompson [00:07:26] And that's what I was taught on the day I got married, and, you know, every day leading up to that in my life. And then, you know, I have this eternal companion now. And now he's gone. So every day I don't live with him, is this, like a pause in eternity? Is this part of eternity? Because if it is part of eternity, he's not here, which inherently makes families are forever a lie. Like, we're not together. And so, like, how do I reconcile this space where he's not here with this belief that this is an eternal relationship? And, you know, there's lots of answers for that.

Janae Thompson [00:08:02] It's like, oh, well, you know, like, it's a pause or it's a break, or it's, you know, it's a testing space, or there's all these kind of platitude answers that makes it feel like.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Or it's just a moment. Moment.

Janae Thompson [00:08:15] Yeah. Or, yeah, it's just a moment. And I'm like, well, 40 years doesn't feel like a moment to me. And these last six months of, like, being a single mom, that doesn't feel like a moment. It feels like I've lived in eternity in the last six months. And so now I'm having to reconcile these time frames with belief of, yeah, like, our family's forever. And.

Janae Thompson [00:08:38] But I have to do all the stuff, like, the hard stuff in the mortality. That's like the. The testing part. And he just gets to check out for all the tantrums and the diaper changing and all the, you know, like, the. The school and the running around every. Like, he just gets to, like, a pass on all that. I have to do all of it. And then he's going to get all of us in the eternities, and I'm kind of like, that doesn't sound fair to me. Oh, but it'll all be made up in the end. Like, everything will be, you know, made up. All your losses will be made up.

Janae Thompson [00:09:06] And these are the things that I would hear when I would ask these questions, you know, and then it was like, well, how is this made up? Like, this time's never. I'm not. I'm never going to be able to relive this, and he's never going to be here for this. And. And then I'm thinking ahead, like, you know, when my. When my kids graduate from college, when they get married, when we have the grandkids, he's never going to be there for any of that, you know, and then the question came like, well, what if I found somebody that, you know, I wanted to be with?

Janae Thompson [00:09:35] And then he's there for all that. So now I'm in this position where I'm not with the biological Father of my children. But this man, this theoretical man. Theoretical man, Right. Steps in and takes the place of, you know, what my husband's roles were. So he's there for the. The blessings and the baptisms and the, you know, the marriages and the graduation and. And then what, like, after we die, then, like, who do I get to be with? Because I.

Janae Thompson [00:10:06] Or can I be with both of them? Or, you know, like, will y' all just be one big family? Like, how is this going to work?

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Yeah. And if. And if I can just try and put myself in your shoes. In Mormon doctrine, a Mormon woman gets sealed to one husband in the afterlife. And we'll talk in a second about how that's actually different for Mormon men. But according to Mormon doctrine, you're sealed to Grant.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Period. And so the weirdness of saying, okay, I'm going to enter in. We're believing Mormons.

Janae Thompson [00:10:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] So Mormon man that I'm dating, whether he's a divorced person or a widower himself or never been married, like, we're both believing Mormons. Eternal families are the most important thing in Mormonism. I'm going to marry you for time. That's the term in Mormonism. For time, not for all eternity. We'll probably spend way more time together than you and Grant ever did.

Janae Thompson [00:11:03] Right. I mean, our marriage was just over a decade. I've still got, you know, hopefully. I mean, if I live to 90, you know, I've got six decades. Yeah. Several decades ahead of me. And.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] And you. And so you'll be entering into a relationship from your perspective. Entering into a relationship knowing that you're going to end up with Grant in heaven and that you'll be cut off from this other person unless he's hanging out in heaven, like, all of a sudden he's. John Larsen helped me realize this. All of a sudden, when you scratch these Mormon doctrines just a centimeter thick, they start to make no sense at all. But I guess I'm just addressing right now the real temporal problem that you would have been experiencing right after Grant's death, which is like, if I date and marry a Mormon man, we're going to be entering to a relationship knowing that it's not for eternity, that it's just for this life, that it's going to end in the heavens.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] And how do you really invest and give everything emotionally and spiritually, physically to a relationship that, you know, is just like a stand in.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] It's a standard. Right.

Janae Thompson [00:12:08] Yeah. And in my mind, I'm like, well, what guy's gonna Want that. That's, you know, a believing member. Like, why would he give up eternity for, you know, like, helping me out here on Earth, Even if we like each other a lot, you know, and so.

Janae Thompson [00:12:23] But I wasn't sure on this policy, though. I had heard rumors about that, but I, you know, like, there's a lot of rumors that float around. And I was like, you know, I. I was actually this. This was like a year after, and I decided to try a dating app, and I went to the Mormon dating app that's, you know, local around here. And it was just because I wanted to just, you know, like, get, like, try this out. Like, is this possible? Because my, like, I really wanted my kids to have a dad. And, you know, it was this thing that. It was like, okay, like, I'm outside of the Nor.

Janae Thompson [00:12:54] I go to church. I feel awkward. I'm a single mom now, and, like, where is my place in this? And my friends would get together and it would be like, the. The. Well, or my friends were very inclusive. But, like, when it was like, ward get togethers and things like that, it would be like, well, usually my husband's talking to the husbands and I'm talking to the wives, and, you know, like, it's. We're there all together, but now I'm just here, this, like, single lady, and, like, all the couples are there. And it just started to feel like this isn't.

Janae Thompson [00:13:21] This isn't working very well for me. Like, I'm not feeling like this is adding to my life. This is starting to feel really hard.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] Are you gonna family work?

Janae Thompson [00:13:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:13:31] And so, because that's.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] The other thing is, like, the church is built all around traditional families, and that's good if you're interested in family, I guess, but if you're gay or single or, you know, a widow, everybody's talking about families and parenting your spouse and eternal marriage. What does that feel for you?

Janae Thompson [00:13:50] Yeah, and I know it's not a negative thing, but, you know, I remember before I was married and I felt like I was getting older for, you know, like, Mormon standards, I'd go to Relief Society and they'd talk all about motherhood and, you know, like, your marriage. And I'm like, man, I'm not married. I don't have a husband. Like, I. I kind of don't really feel like I am in a. In a place here where I fit, you know, and. And then I did all the things, and then I fit and felt great. And then now all of a sudden, I'm not fitting Anymore. And so I'm hearing this and you know, people are saying, oh, it great that, you know, families are eternal and marriage is eternal.

Janae Thompson [00:14:24] And. And I'm thinking, well, my marriage is not, so why am I being excluded from this? And you know, the response to that is no, of course it is. You guys got married in the temple. I'm like, no, first of all, he's gone, so does this time not count? Because if we're talking about eternity, that's never ending, never beginning. Like, there's no beginning and end to eternity. And I assure you we are separated right now. And they're like, oh, well, it's just physically, I'm like, okay, that's fine. Yes, it's phys. But however else you want to describe it, we're still separated. You know, if, if we're still together spiritually, maybe I don't see him around, he's not helping with the dishes.

Janae Thompson [00:15:01] This doesn't feel like, you know, an eternal marriage right here. It feels like I'm very alone. And so being in that space with, you know, like a very family oriented structure, it became very hard because it was like this mirror of what I had and lost and I had no say in it. You know, I didn't get divorced and you know, I didn't choose this. I didn't want to be without my spouse. He just died and I had no ch. Choice in the matter.

Janae Thompson [00:15:26] And that felt like, you know, it just, I mean, it's hard to lose a spouse no matter how that happens, whether it's divorce or, you know, separation or issues that come up that make it so it's hard to be together. Those are all really difficult situations and those things need to happen as far as, like, keeping everyone safe and separation and all that. But like, I didn't, I didn't even consent to, like, any of it. It just happened to me.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] So you, you said you got on a Mormon dating app?

Janae Thompson [00:15:59] Yes. And so, so I, I was having a conversation with some guy and he's like, well, you know, are you sealed to your husband? And I was like, well, yeah. And he's like, oh, well, that leaves you in a predicament, doesn't it? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he's like, well, you can't get sealed to anybody else. And I was like, okay. I mean, I've heard this as a rumor, but I actually don't even know what the policy is. And so from this conversation I was like, you know, I should find out what the policy is. And like, understand it. So I looked it up in the handbook and it was.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] Read it.

Janae Thompson [00:16:31] Yeah, please do.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] This is in your document, right?

Janae Thompson [00:16:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:34] All right, so I'm going to read this, and this is the most current version of the handbook.

Janae Thompson [00:16:39] I mean, I, I looked this up a year ago. I haven't referenced it since, but, you know, like, this is what I got about a year ago.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] Okay. All right, so this is 38. I'm going to be sarcastic of Jesus's corporate handbook. It's just weird. It's weird in a Christian church to see, like, policies codified, like a corporate HR manual a little bit.

Janae Thompson [00:17:05] Especially when they have to do with, like, my eternal life.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Yeah. Okay, so I'll read it. It's. It's called ceiling of living members after a spouse's death. So. And it's different for women than men.

Janae Thompson [00:17:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Which immediately is a problem.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] So, all right, so. And did it have men first or did it have women first? Because you. Women's listed here first.

Janae Thompson [00:17:36] I think if I remember correctly, the men's part is listed first.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:17:43] I think I put the women's first because that's what applies to me. And then, yeah, you know, I put that second to be like, look what else they said.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Like, yeah, all right, well, I'm going to read the men's first. It says men. So again, this is sealing of living members after a spouse's death. Men. If a husband and wife have been sealed and the wife dies, the man may be sealed to another woman. Okay, so if, if a man is wanting to be sealed to a woman and he's sealed to other women because his former wives died, he just does it like, that's, that's so far so simple.

Janae Thompson [00:18:24] Yeah, sounds reasonable. I mean, she's gone, so go get another one.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] And marriages are eternal, Right. So you just get sealed and you're, you're fine.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Mormon men can be sealed eternally to as many women as. As they are able to get sealed to in this life. Could be five, right?

Janae Thompson [00:18:43] Yeah. Or 10 or 40 or.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] And, and in the eyes of Mormonism, they're sealed to those women for eternity in whatever happens.

Janae Thompson [00:18:53] Yeah, they're so. So the beautiful part is, you know, you live a beautiful life together and then you get to keep living the next life together. And so, you know, it's just a beautiful continuation of this relationship you create on earth. And for the women or for the men, it's like, okay, well, if, if the wife dies, you know, you can go get another wife and be sealed to Her. And then you get two wives in the next life.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:19:20] And you get to live with both of them.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Yeah. And currently, the top two ranking Mormons in the world, Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks, both of their first wives passed away. They found second wives, married them, got sealed to them, and in the eternities, they believe that they'll have multiple wives.

Janae Thompson [00:19:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] And this is not controversial.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:42] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] This is Mormon doctrine, and it's at the highest levels of our church. And in this sense, the Mormon Church is still a polygamous church.

Janae Thompson [00:19:49] Yes, in that sense. And. And because it's not played out in physical reality, it's. It. To me, it's not considered. Like, we still. We don't still practice polygamy, but, like, spiritually we practice polygamy and it's no big deal. But physically, we don't anymore. But. But then, you know, like, physically, a man can marry more than one woman and be sealed to them physically, right?

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:20:14] So then.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So here. Here's the woman section. It's over five. It's over four times longer than the men's section, which is kind of weird, right?

Janae Thompson [00:20:25] Yeah, yeah, it's really.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] Can anyone imagine why the woman's section of the handbook on this policy of sealing of living members after a spouse's death, why the woman's section is four times longer than men's. Margi, do you have a. Do you have a gut instinct as to why?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:41] I could say something, but I will refrain.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] I'll read it. Women, if a husband and wife have been sealed and the husband dies, that's your case?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] The woman may not be sealed to another man unless she receives a cancellation of the first sealing. Therefore, the promise of families are forever is here discarded. This. Oh, that's your. Oh, yeah, that's your.

Janae Thompson [00:21:12] That's my commentary. Yeah. Okay, so that may not.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] Okay, so it was. Sorry, I built it up. It wasn't four times as long, but it was twice as long. And I'll just read it one more time. Women, if a husband and a wife have been sealed and the husband dies, the woman may not be sealed to another man unless she receives a cancellation of the first ceiling. So if you wanted. You're already making faces. Why?

Janae Thompson [00:21:39] I mean, when I read the policy, I was like, seriously? So if I cancel the ceiling to my husband, the father of my children, I can get sealed to somebody else. So I have to choose which eternal family that I want. So I have to essentially break up all the eternal families I could possibly create.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:59] But.

Janae Thompson [00:21:59] And I have to make that decision now. Like, and then. And then the wording. Like, a woman may not do that. Like, I tell my children, no, you may not have another cookie. You haven't had your dinner yet. But, like, for this to be like, a woman may not get sealed to another man. It just feels so condescending. And then.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] And then, like, there's just the inequality of it.

Janae Thompson [00:22:20] Yeah. And then there's the whole concept of, oh, well, but you can get sealed to another husband. You just have to break this ceiling. So then I'm like, well, okay. So then when I got sealed, I thought that was eternal. And then he died. And now I would like to be with another man, theoretically, to help me raise my family here in the physical realm.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] Enjoy your life.

Janae Thompson [00:22:41] And enjoy my life. And you're telling me I have to pick which one. And by the way, my husband just died, so now you're telling me I have to pick him. Or, like, this theoretical possibility for me to reestablish my life with someone, if I can even find a Mormon guy that would want to date me if I break my cancellation so he can get sealed to me, if that's an issue in whether or not he'd even want to consider dating me. And that was like, one of the issues. It's like, well, if you're already sealed to your husband, I don't even want to date you. And I'm like, what?

John Dehlin [00:23:12] Yeah. And so. So I just want to say men don't have to make this Sophie's Choice. No, men just. It's like, do not pass. Go. Just.

Janae Thompson [00:23:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] Keep on going.

Janae Thompson [00:23:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Do whatever you want. Marry as many people as you want. Women don't have.

Janae Thompson [00:23:25] Yeah. And there's one caveat to that. A man can't be sealed in the policy. This was not the practice, but especially in the early church. But in the policy when men can't be sealed to another woman if she's sealed to another man. So that's the only bar that a man would have is if the woman he wants to be sealed with happened to be sealed to another man, which would be my case. But that would be the only way that he wouldn't be able to just immediately get sealed to somebody.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Yeah. Yeah. And then. Yeah. And then there's how this in reality, and this isn't fictitious. This is an exaggeration. How that affects men who have not been sealed will feel about being sealed to you. So explain that right to our Never Mormons.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:12] So.

Janae Thompson [00:24:13] So for a man that's Never been married and sealed. Or maybe he was married and wasn't sealed. That would mean I'm ineligible to belong to him after this life.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] So as an eternal spouse.

Janae Thompson [00:24:23] Yes. So that means he would marry me for now, and then I would go back to my first husband, and he would be left alone, man, in the spiritual world. And what man wants be left alone, man.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] And then there's the question of. Let's just say this man, like, sucked it up and married you just for time. What if you had kids? There actually is a Mormon doctrine about who gets the kids in the afterlife.

Janae Thompson [00:24:46] Yes. And so I. I don't know the exact policy, but I know the idea of it is that because I'm sealed to my first husband, the children that he and I would have in the physical world right now, here, would belong to my first dead husband.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:24:59] So they would be his property.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] If you had children with your second husband, they go with you. So they become your. They become Grant's property in the hereafter.

Janae Thompson [00:25:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] And so this guy would think, do I want to marry her? Not only will I not get her. And again, it's like, women as cattle, right? Not only do I get her in the afterlife, but my kids become this other guy's kids, and I don't even get to keep my kids.

Janae Thompson [00:25:25] Right. So you don't get to keep your spouse or your children.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] And this sounds like. Like Narnia. This sounds like Lord of the Rings, like fiction or Harry Potter. But this is real, right?

Janae Thompson [00:25:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] In Mormon.

Janae Thompson [00:25:38] Yeah. And when I. Yeah. And when I looked this up, my heart just dropped because I was like, how could a church that preaches love and family have a policy for someone who's been through what I've been through?

Janae Thompson [00:25:53] I just. There's no love in this. This is complete misogyny, like, in its worst form. And, you know, if you believe the Bible and you know what the Gospel teaches, there's a heavy emphasis on taking care of the widowless and the fatherless children. And, you know, and this policy exempts any care being taken for this particular situation.

Janae Thompson [00:26:20] And I'm just like, this is. This is creating a physical sentence of being a widow forever. Because I can make two choices here. I can just live out my life and wait till the next life, and then I can be with my partner again. So I got just a little over a decade with him, and I'll get the next 50 years of my life without him, and I'll just suck it up and I'll put my nose to the grind. And I'll raise the kids, and I'll be faithful, and I'll keep all my covenants, and I won't get married again, because if I did, I couldn't get married in the temple.

Janae Thompson [00:26:54] And so I'll just be alone. I'll just be alone, celibate, you know, not being in a partnership or having that kind of loving support, I'll just be alone. Like, that's my choice. If I want to keep my original family intact, that's the sacrifice I have to make.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] And there's a really good book all about this by our dear friend Carolyn Pearson, and it's called the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. And I also have a Mormon Stories episode. We'll include links to both of those in the show notes. But she just talks about how the horrors of Joseph Smith's Mormon polygamy that you were never taught when you went to Nauvoo.

Janae Thompson [00:27:29] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] Continue to haunt women. Mormon women in 2023 today. And it's a very real thing. And so it affected your ability to date Mormon men.

Janae Thompson [00:27:40] Yeah. And, you know, Mormonism is what I knew. I was comfortable with it. I wanted just kind of a recreation of that family I had. So that's where I originally thought, you know, this is where I could probably find a really great guy, is in this same community.

Janae Thompson [00:27:57] So, you know, that's where I started. And then, like, immediately run into this roadblock of like, oh, yeah, we're not gonna. Your situation doesn't work for what we're looking for. And then I had a couple other situations. Like, there was a divorced guy that I talked to a little bit. His wife had canceled her sealing to him and gotten married to somebody else. So he was un. You know, he wasn't taken in the. In the whole ceiling context.

Janae Thompson [00:28:22] So he had done the ordinance, he'd been sealed, but hers was canceled. So I. I guess technically, I don't think his was. But he wasn't sealed to her anymore, so he just wasn't sealed to anybody. But he'd had the, you know, the ordinance performed or whatever. And then, you know, I. I would be sealed to my first husband. And so if he came into the mix, it would be this, like, well, you know, my first wife canceled my sealing, and you're sealed to your other husband. And so, like, I don't know how that works out. And he, like, he went through this big, long processing, and he's like, I've decided I'm okay with it.

Janae Thompson [00:28:58] And so, you know, I think we should go Out. And I'm just like, okay. Like, this is really weird. Like, he's gone through this whole process, he said, of, like, thinking, like. Like, at the end, if I lose you, you know, to your first husband, could I be okay with that? And he's like, you know, I believe it's all going to work out in the end, so I think I can do it, you know? And I'm like, this is before our first date. Like, okay, this is weird.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:29:22] And then, of course. And then there was a widow that I talked to, and his concern was. He's like, well, kind of the same thing. Like, you know, I was with my wife for, you know, 15 years or however long it was before she passed. And, you know, like, if we got together, chances are you and I would be together for 40 years. And he's like, well, I mean, I love my wife, and I'd never want to be without her. But, like, what if I loved you more after 40 years? I would want both of you, but I couldn't have you because you're sealed to your husband.

Janae Thompson [00:29:53] And so I'd want. But I'd want to be sealed to both of you. And I'm like, wow, okay, so you get your two if I cancel my one. And in any of these scenarios, like, I'm put in this position where I have to make a choice in this life for, like, something that's supposed to happen in the next life.

Janae Thompson [00:30:11] And the reality is, I have no idea what the real consequences of this are beyond this life, other than if I can't find anybody to date me because I'm sealed to my husband. Like, this is going to be a problem for me. Like, I'm not going to. Like, this is exiling me to widowhood for the rest of my natural life. Like, this is horrible.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] Yeah. And, you know, what you passed over is what my mom did. So my mom. So my parents were sealed married 25 years in the temple. They got a divorce. They remained sealed until my mom wanted to marry her current husband or, sorry, her third husband in the temple. And so she had her ceiling canceled to my dad.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] And then she married. She married Don, who was already sealed to his first wife, who had passed away. And so my mom just entered into a celestial, polygamous marriage, and she was okay with that. She's just like, you know what? I love him.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] He takes care of me. I'm sure his former wife Denise was amazing. Or his ex wife, or his late wife, I should say. I'm sure his late wife Denise is amazing. And we'll just share him in the afterlife. And that's like, my mom is still alive. She's 88, and she fully plans on when she dies being the second wife to her late husband Don. And you didn't want that?

Janae Thompson [00:31:40] No. Well, and then my question is, like, what happens to the kids? Because if the kids are sealed to the couple, then, like, where does that leave them? Which, do they go to their dad? Did they go with their mom?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:51] Like, where are you going, John?

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Where am I going?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:53] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:31:54] I mean, are you going with your mom? Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] I'm with you in hell, actually.

Janae Thompson [00:31:56] And that's. That's the thing. Well, and that's the other thing that I, like, realized. I was like, well, you know, if. If I'm sealed to my husband and then all my kids go and get married, like, are they even sealed to me anymore? Because what, they'll want to be with their spouses? So then I'm like, this whole eternal family thing doesn't seem like it's, like, mathematically going to work out at all. Like, it makes no sense unless we all, like, everyone just lives in the same house. Like, then I guess we're all together. But, like, that doesn't make sense either.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] So then I'm grandparents and great. Grandparents and great.

Janae Thompson [00:32:25] And I'm like, yeah, and cousins and friends, and everybody would just somehow be connected, which, I mean, that's a beautiful concept. Like, as humanity, we're all connected. I love the thought of that.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] But how about we're just all connected and we don't need all these silly ordinances.

Janae Thompson [00:32:39] Right. So then I'm like, who's teaching?

John Dehlin [00:32:42] Which, by the way, is what most Christians think.

Janae Thompson [00:32:43] I know.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] We're all in heaven together.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] And Joseph Smith complicated it.

Janae Thompson [00:32:48] Yeah. And so then I'm. I'm thinking, like, why am I so caught up in this concept of thinking about all these intricacies, of how this will or will not happen in the afterlife? We're not even in the afterlife. And the reality is we don't know what's going to happen in the afterlife. Like, nobody's come back after being dead for 10 years. And they're like, okay, let me explain to you how it really happens. Like, that's never, to my knowledge, happened. And so there's no. Like, there's no actual proof that this will in reality happen. It's just, okay, here's what we're teaching. And now that it's.

Janae Thompson [00:33:23] It's applicable to your situation, it actually means something to you. Whereas before, it's like, oh, here's all the things that you can learn about and all the great things that can happen. And it sounds so great to be with your family forever. And I totally want that. And I never had the concept that you had to, like, you could have your family without doing all this stuff.

Janae Thompson [00:33:43] Like, you know, people I meet now that have never been in, like, never heard of Mormonism, and they're like, like, well, of course you're going to be with your family. And I'm like, well, no, you have to follow all these steps. And they're like, what?

Janae Thompson [00:33:56] And it's like, yeah, wait, what, what are those steps? And why do you have to do, like, why. Why is there a policy that creates steps that creates the actual separation?

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Yeah, yeah, it's, it, it's manufactured scarcity that probably wasn't designed with the intent to manipulate. And even now it's probably not taught with the intent to manipulate.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] But in the end, it's a very. It's a manipulative tool that makes people believe that if they don't join Mormonism, get baptized, go to the temple, pay their tithing, do everything the church says that they won't get to be with their spouse or children in the afterlife. That. That's what it comes down to.

Janae Thompson [00:34:35] Right. And so, like, the policy became to

Margi Dehlin [00:34:37] me,

Janae Thompson [00:34:40] in my interpretation of it, is that your family will absolutely not be together under any circumstances unless you follow this precise formula.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:34:49] And so then I was like, yeah, that's not going to work for me. And, and the majority of, like, most families, I mean, we don't have that traditional family that sticks together the way it used to more often, but even then it still didn't work out that way, you know, and so it seems really silly to try and put everyone in the ideal. I think it's beautiful to say this is an ideal. You know, a man, a woman, children, you support each other, grow up together. You know, you have your grandkids and all. Like, it's absolutely an ideal. And there's a lot of other ways that that can look and still be ideal for you.

Janae Thompson [00:35:27] But maybe that's a starting point, but it's becoming like in this concept, it's the only point. This is the only option that works. And so as soon as you're outside of that option, then it's like, I now feel excluded.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] Yeah, yeah. So at least one, if not several Mormon apostles have attempted to address this issue publicly. Because you will have not have been the first to have this problem. Yeah, I'm, I I'm pretty sure that Elder Oaks addressed this, making some sort of joke that, that I think some people really offended by. But I remember hearing Elder Holland address this issue in a fireside, and all he could come up with was what you've already said, which is, don't worry,

Janae Thompson [00:36:15] it'll all work out.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Just get married, be faithful and quote, it'll all work out in the end.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Now what's, what's wrong with that?

Janae Thompson [00:36:22] Well, like, in the reality of my everyday life, I want to be able to be with a partner that want, like, wants to commit in a way that we're both, you know, united with this family. So now if we're saying, well, these are my kids and they're gonna belong to my husband, that inherently immediately presents a problem with cohesiveness in, you know, can love create a family? Or does it have to be a structure and a dynamic that, you know, works according to the law and the spiritual law? So it creates this disconnection between, you know, what really is family. If we love each other, can that be family? No. No, you have to follow these check marks.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] No, but the church, the church won't tell you that when you are being raised in the church or if you're converting to the church, but if you're on the other side of your spouse dying, they'll just say, look, just love your spouse. Love your spouse, love your kids. Trust Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father's all powerful. He created the universe. He created really sophisticated things. You'll be happy, your second husband will be happy, your kids will be happy and all that ceiling stuff, Heavenly Father will figure it out. Don't worry. Just enjoy your life now.

Janae Thompson [00:37:34] Yeah. Then why is it such a big deal? Why do we have policies? Why do we even do it? Like, if, if God is an all powerful God, can't we just all live a good life and love each other and then let God take care of it? Or, or do we have to go build this house and you know, have somebody with this, you know, title to do all these things? And like, now this is starting to seem to me like a, a little bit of a hierarchy. And you know, this seems like it's organized in a way to work for some people and not for others. And you know, like, so if we can just love each other, then why is there even a policy?

John Dehlin [00:38:05] Why do we need temples? Yeah, why do we need temple marriages? Why do we need sealing authority? If Heavenly Father can just. And I'm sure it's just kind of like, it's not like it's going to take him 20 years. He's got enough power to just kind of go bloop. And everybody's sealed.

Janae Thompson [00:38:20] Yeah. I mean, if you're ready to be sealed all powerful, where's the limit on that? So why can't you do a, you know, 10 billion baptisms in one second?

John Dehlin [00:38:28] Like, why do you need end temple marriages?

Janae Thompson [00:38:31] Yeah. And then, you know, the other interesting aspect of this is, like, in following the way ordinances and covenants are done, it's like you get baptized, and it's not like once you sin, you have to go get re baptized. So why is it that we're. If we're getting sealed, if you get divorced, why do you have to go get resealed? Like, if this is a covenant between you and God, why are we including other people in it? Like, can it just transfer? Like, baptism works for, you know, your whole life, and you just go through the repentance process, you know, so why is it that the ceiling is connected to another person?

Janae Thompson [00:39:04] Like, and then you have to go through all this stuff. Like, you have to get a cancellation and you have to do this and you have to do that to get re. And it's your third time and it's your fourth time. It's like, okay, can it just be like, you've had the ordinance performed, you're good. You be faithful to your covenants or to your marriage, and if your spouse does this or that or dies or cheats or whatever, like, if you're faithful, you're sealed in the covenant or whatever, you know, And I think that there is some, like, understanding around. Oh, that's kind of how it is.

Janae Thompson [00:39:33] But the policy doesn't support that as being, if you're doing great, you're good. It's like, no, these other people have a say in it. And, you know, I feel like that takes away a lot of autonomy in your own spiritual relationship with a higher power. Because you're saying, well, yeah, there's a higher power. I have a great relationship. But, like, these guys over here making the policy, they also have to approve it. And if they don't, then. And nobody really knows where it's going to go, but. But just trust God, it'll work out.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:40:03] And then one other issue is in my family history. My grandmother, my great grandmother, she had her husband die about the same. We were the same age, we had the same amount of kids. And her husband died in a car accident. He, like, drove over a cliff. So she's around my same age, 36 or something. And he was 38, just like my husband. And I was like, whoa, this is an interesting story, you know. And so then I kind of looked through and I saw that she had married again. And she was sealed to both husbands, but she wasn't sealed to both of them until after their death, like, after everyone was dead.

Janae Thompson [00:40:37] So I was like, okay, that's great. And, you know, people would be like, oh, well, your grandma, she. She caught. She was able to get sealed to both of her husbands. I'm like, yeah, but not until after she died. Which means still in this life, you're saying, I just hope it works out in the end. And according to these policies, I don't know.

Questioning the Plan of Salvation and Agency

Janae Thompson [00:40:55] So what do you have to go off that really, like, supports you feeling like it's okay to just love and, like, do your best versus I have to follow the policy.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] And I'm sure the brethren have sat around trying to decide what to do here. And if they know that the ceilings can happen after people die, the extra ceilings, then they have certainly have asked themselves the question, why not just let everyone get sealed whoever they want in this life, even if it's multiple ceilings? And again, like, they tell us it'll all be worked out in the end, but I'm guessing they do that so that people won't take their first marriages trivially and they'll feel some sort of consequence or like, roadblocks to efficiency to make it harder.

Janae Thompson [00:41:40] Yeah, and I can see all those points, and to me that sounds really controlling because are you not going to let your people make the choices that they need to make that are going to be best for them, you know, in a ceiling? And then it brings in this whole layer of like, well, I don't want to take this trivially, so I'm going to try harder. And I'm in a. Maybe I'm in an abusive relationship, but it's an internal marriage, so we're going to work it out. And in the next life, you know, he or she isn't going to be abusive anymore. I mean, there's all these things that comes.

Janae Thompson [00:42:05] Come up with that, that take away. Like, in my view, what the whole purpose of the. This original plan of salvation was, or happiness, however you want to describe it, is your agency. You know, it's like there's so many things now coming in to control what you do. And so to me, the whole plan takes away your agency.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] Yeah, yeah. And makes life complex here. So. So what did that make dating like for you as a faithful, believing Mormon widow?

Janae Thompson [00:42:36] It made it emotionally ridiculous. And, I mean, it was just hard. I'm trying to navigate, like, even finding time to find somebody to date, get to know somebody, decide, like, is this someone I want to spend a few hours with? If I do that, I've got to get a babysitter, and then they find out I'm sealed to my husband, and then they're like, oh, peace out. You know? And I was just like, it's like,

John Dehlin [00:42:58] four kids, and you're sealed to your husband, right?

Janae Thompson [00:43:01] And so I was like, this. Like, emotionally, this is just too much for me. And I just had to take a step back. And this is kind of when everything culminated for me, and I was like, you know, all of this is not working for me. Like, none of this is working for me, and I'm gonna let go of all of it.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] So is that a faith crisis or just, like, dropping the church? Because it wasn't working.

Janae Thompson [00:43:24] This was dropping everything in my life that was outside of me and my kids. So this included church. This included, you know, things that I was trying to busy myself with. I mean, just everything. I was like, I just need to take a break from everything, and anything that really is meant to be in my life will come back. So, you know, I did stop going to church, and, you know, there was a lot of comp. Passion around that. It's like, you've been through a lot. We can understand.

Janae Thompson [00:43:48] And it was interesting because this, obviously, this was not the first time I'd questioned the church in general. And even before my husband died, I. I started questioning some of the things around, like, why am I doing this? Like, why am I wearing garments? I'm wearing garments because I went to the temple and I got married so I could have my eternal marriage. And, you know, I didn't really know what life was going to be like with wearing these all the time. And the reality for me is they're really uncomfortable. I. I get really, like, I'm super uncomfortable all day. That makes me feel ornery.

Janae Thompson [00:44:19] I, like, I just want to take them off all the time, so I'm finding excuses to take them off. Can I just wear my yoga pants all day and justify not wearing them? And then I'm like, you know, I'm playing a lot of mind tricks around wearing something. This is really odd, and this seems not normal, so I'm just gonna let that go. So I let that go, you know,

John Dehlin [00:44:38] and then see, my believing Mormons are now thinking, slippery slope.

Janae Thompson [00:44:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] Her garments. First she stops going to church. Next, she takes off her garment, she's toast.

Janae Thompson [00:44:46] Yes. And so. So I took off my garments before Grant died, and this was one of those things where I was like, you know, I. I just don't like this. It doesn't make me the best version of myself. I don't like myself when I'm trying to fit into this, and, you know, I'm just not comfortable. So I'm gonna let it go for a little while and see what happens.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Oh, my goodness. Did it ever. Did the thought ever come into your mind that maybe Grant passed away because your faithfulness started sliding? Well, that's a terrible. Terrible.

Janae Thompson [00:45:12] Yeah, it is. It's horrible. And for that. For that exact question, you know, when I took my garments off, you know, people started to notice, oh, she's not wearing her garments anymore. You know, I wonder what's happening, like, what's going on? And.

Janae Thompson [00:45:26] And this was about, I'd say, a year before Grant died, this all started happening. And at this point, I had no intention of, like, not wanting to be a part of the church. I was just starting to question, like, what aspects of this work for me and what don't. And this is one aspect that just doesn't work for me. And I get the whole sacredness, concep concept of it, and I believe that. But actually wearing a piece of cotton underneath all my clothes and, like, having to wear five layers over it to cover it up, like, I. I don't know that the God that I want to believe in would really, really care that much about that.

Janae Thompson [00:45:55] And, you know, in the next life, is it going to be like, well, you know, you wore your garments for eight hours a day, but it was. It was really 12 hours a day that you should have been wearing them. So you were off by, like, 84 hours throughout your whole lifetime. So, you know, you're going to the lower kingdom because of that. Like, I'm like, I just don't see it working out that way.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:12] So.

Janae Thompson [00:46:12] So I'm just going to let go of this one thing and see what happens. And. And then there was other things, you know, that I was just kind of. I'm going to. I'm going to feel more free around this or that or not big things. Like, I'm going to try coffee, you know, and I'm going to hold my hands up and, oh, you know, I wasn't struck by lightning. I'm okay. Like, maybe I'll have another cup. And. And then. And then my husband died. And then I was like. I mean, the first thought that came to my mind was, was. I am being punished for questioning. I'm being punished for taking off my garments. I'm being punished for, you know, not going to the temple in the last six months. And I mean, logically, I know they have nothing to do with each other, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Because plenty of people do those things and their spouses don't do it. Right.

Janae Thompson [00:47:00] But the fact that my mind made that connection told me there's something wrong with this and there's something here that is so off. Because for me to think that, like I'm being punished for questioning, first of all, that's not the God that I believe in. And second of all, if that's how it is, I want nothing to do with it. Like, I will just burn in hell. Thanks very much. Like, if that's how it is, like, I don't want to live that life.

John Dehlin [00:47:30] And the problem with that is like Old Testament God, God, there's the story of the ark, of the covenant being carried, which was the sacred, I don't know, box, like a relic box. And it starts to slip and someone tries, all they try and do is to like, help steady the ark so it doesn't fall and God strikes them dead.

Janae Thompson [00:47:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] So, I mean, yeah, Old Testament God absolutely strikes people dead if they do something wrong. That's just a fact. The New Testament God will cure your, your blindness or your leprosy or whatever if you have enough faith and faithfulness. So like it's, it's, it's the Holy Bible that leads to, to both sides of this kind of magical thinking. Dark and light.

Janae Thompson [00:48:10] Yeah, yeah. And, and it was a culmination of all of that. You know, there's this loving God that I've been taught about and then there's this punishing God that, you know, if you don't do everything on this list that this other person made, that's it, you know, like a man here in the church. If you don't do everything on that list, then this God is going to have, he's going to say you're not worthy and then this God's going to be mad at you. But then this God on the other side, the all loving God, you know, you can do anything and you'll always be loved and you'll always be valued.

Janae Thompson [00:48:40] And I'm kind of going between these things all through this process of, you know, grief and trying to figure out, like, how do I get out of the shock of what's just happened to me. And that's where I really just said, you know, I'm not going to engage in this. Like, this is too much for my mind to handle. And so I just kind of stepped back from everything.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] Okay, and does that mean you stopped dating?

Janae Thompson [00:49:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] Did you stop dating, Stop going to church?

Janae Thompson [00:49:10] Yeah, stop dating. Stopped going to church. I stopped going to, you know, like, anything that I had been engaging in. Like, I just needed some space from life because I was like, I just feel like everything that I've believed, it just doesn't exist anymore. Like, I just don't know where there's a framework for my life. So I'm gonna. To do what I'm here to do, you know, Like, I have my kids. I'm going to take care of them. I'm going to do whatever it is that is the bare minimum for me to just, like, continue on until I figure something out. Because I. I kind of felt like I'd lost hope, I'd lost belief, I'd lost everything around me. And I just. I just didn't know where to go or what to do or how to navigate that. I didn't know how to interact with other people. I just. I just felt super lost.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Yeah. And this is just a few years ago, right? Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:49:56] Yeah. I mean, this is like two and a half years, three years to right now. I was in this, like, two and a half years ago. Like, just no ability to, like, just really engage with life other than take

John Dehlin [00:50:09] care of my kids and rebuild your business. Because you had a partner in your former business, and then all of a sudden your partner's gone, right? Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:50:17] Yeah. So it was just anything that I needed to do to survive. And, you know, that's basically where I was capable. And beyond that, I wasn't. I just wasn't in a space to do anything or make any decisions or, you know, think about anything, because it was just too much. Like, I just couldn't make sense of any of it.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] So when did that change? I mean, that all makes sense. Margi's nodding. Are you nodding, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:50:42] Yeah. I think even just the, you know, grief and loss and how it shows up, I think can be so exhausting. So absolutely overwhelming and exhausting. So you getting, like, super clear and honed in and just having the rest kind of fall away.

Janae Thompson [00:51:02] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:02] That makes. That makes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] You move to survival mode.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:07] Yep.

Janae Thompson [00:51:07] Yep. And I just existed in there, you know, and. And it was this process. My mentality at the time was, you know, if the church is true and if it's really the gospel that I. I've learned about my whole Life, like, it. It will come back to me, and I don't need to worry about letting it go right now because I'm. You know, there's grace, and I'm in this space, and I need to. I need to find all of the truth of what reality is, not just what I've been taught.

Janae Thompson [00:51:35] And so, you know, as I went through that space, after about six months, I was like, yeah, that I don't think, like, my life. My life feels better without it, without the church, without, you know, like, all of the things that I felt like I needed to do in regards to being a fai, Faithful member of the church. It just was like my life just felt so much more free without any of it. And I was like, I don't want to go back to it.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] And that's, I think, what a lot of people experienced during COVID And I think you actually experienced this during COVID too.

Janae Thompson [00:52:07] Yes. This was coinciding with COVID Yeah. My husband died in July of 2019. So by March, everything was in lockdown of 2020. So they were very closely connected. So there was a lot of, you know, a lot of change, a lot of isolation, a lot of just big things happening for me and the whole world.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] Okay, so once you just realized you were happier without the church, what'd you do next?

Janae Thompson [00:52:32] Well, then I feared for my eternal salvation.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] Because you didn't lose your beliefs.

Janae Thompson [00:52:36] Right. I still felt like it was probably, like, the true church. I just felt like all these little things that didn't make sense. Sense probably didn't matter. So now I was like, okay, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna find out. I just want to know, like, where did these little things come from that, you know, seem to have so much bearance on your eternal salvation? And by that, what I mean is, you know, if you want to get sealed and have this eternal family, you have to meet the criteria. You can't drink alcohol, you can't drink coffee. You have to wear your garments. You have to pay your tithing.

Janae Thompson [00:53:11] You have to, you know, answer all these questions. And so I'm like, well, if I don't wear my garments, does that mean I'm losing out on eternal salvation? If I drink coffee, does that mean I'm losing out? If I don't pay my tithing, does that mean I'm losing out? So.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] And a believing Mormon would say yes to all four of those things.

Janae Thompson [00:53:28] Right?

John Dehlin [00:53:28] You will not be in the celestial kingdom without wearing your garments, paying 10% of your income to the church. Attending church regularly.

Janae Thompson [00:53:36] Yeah. Going to church.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] If you drink coffee or alcohol.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:39] Right.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] You will. Period. Salvation over.

Janae Thompson [00:53:42] Right. And so I was like, okay, if I could have a better understanding of where these things came from and why we're doing them, that will probably help me be able to engage in a way that, you know, I'll have the motivation to do it again. So, you know, I'm looking up, you know, where did garments come from? There's not a lot of history on that, actually.

Janae Thompson [00:54:03] And some of the things I found were, you know, they're. They. Joseph Smith, they just used him in the temple. They didn't wear them. It was just like, for the ceremony. And I was like, that makes a lot more sense, you know, and then going into the Brigham Young era, it's like, well, Brigham Young really wanted to make sure all his wives were covered from, you know, ankle to wrist. And, you know, he made them up because. And this is more of, like, rumor type history, but it's like he made. He made the garments a part of the everyday wear to keep people covered up from sexual immorality.

Janae Thompson [00:54:38] And. And that's a. A possibility of the reason why they were made at that time, to be worn every day and to have the amount of material they did. And then from that point, it was like, okay, now we wear these every day. So if you've been to the temple, you gotta wear these every day. They go, you know, from your neck to your right wrist and then from your waist, or I think they were one piece down to your ankles. And I was like, oh, that'd be even worse. So then I was like, well, you know, like, if that's the way that they originally were, what's the evolution of the garment?

Janae Thompson [00:55:10] And, like, it doesn't look like that today. So, like, why has it changed? Like, what's changed? And, you know, if it was set forth this way, I mean, obviously that is not going to work. Like, people nowadays, like women and men even, would not wear. Wear that much clothing under their clothing. Like, it just wouldn't work. So obviously there has to be some type of, you know, evolution of this. But at the same time, if. If that's how God said it should be, then it shouldn't change either, you know. And so I'm kind of going back and forth with this type of a question, and it just seemed like it was just changing to be, like, more comfortable.

Janae Thompson [00:55:48] There was nothing spiritual about any of the changes. There was. Was, you know, and there wasn't even, like a spiritual reason I could find as to why you wear them every day. And so it. Like, it was this other aspect that I was like, okay, this just doesn't really make sense to me. So then I was like, okay, well, let's go to the word of wisdom. You know, like, what? Like, why don't we drink coffee? Like, that's such a weird thing. And you know what. What was this? And it's like, okay, so does it really say coffee? And then I'm like, you know, another thing in the word of wisdom is it's that says, don't eat meat that much. And like, Mormons are eating meat all the time. And so, like, I'm just really confused about that.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] It doesn't mention coffee or it doesn't. Hot drinks.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:28] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [00:56:29] And so then I'm like, it doesn't even say hot drinks in here. And so, like, okay, it says hot drinks or. Yeah, it doesn't say coffee. It just says hot drinks. And like, we drink hot chocolate. I drink herbal tea for some reason, like this. Herbal tea versus other teas are okay. Like, this is kind of what I've learned.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] And our ice lattes. Okay.

Janae Thompson [00:56:49] Right. And so I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. So I go back to the history.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:54] I want to say, yes.

Janae Thompson [00:56:57] And, you know, there's that story of Emma was really annoyed with all the men leaving tobacco. So she's like, oh, can you ask about tobacco? Like, that can't be good for you, you know? And then there's this next backstory that, like, yeah, the Lord said we can't have tobacco or beer. The things the men like. So the men are like, well, well, then you can't have coffee and tea. You know, we're going to take away something that you like, too. And it's like, there's no standard basis for, like, why there's no spiritual connection to this.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:26] So.

Janae Thompson [00:57:27] So then I'm.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] So then I'm like, also, Also, the word of wisdom, DNC89, allows for beer.

Janae Thompson [00:57:33] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] Explicitly.

Janae Thompson [00:57:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] And it says, mild drinks of barley.

Janae Thompson [00:57:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] Which. There's only one that's beer. It's expressly allowed.

Janae Thompson [00:57:40] Yeah. And so then I'm like, well, why don't Mormons drink beer? Like, none of this makes sense, like what it says in the scriptures into practice. Like, we're not practicing any of these things the way they're written. So now I'm like, well, well, does that mean the written is not, like the word of God? So then it. Like. So then the next layer comes, you know, and then I start learning about different things in church history. And the whole polygamy thing was an issue. And this was, I think, if I were to say, you know, so throughout this whole time, I am putting these things on my shelf.

Janae Thompson [00:58:10] You know, like, I don't understand why this would be the case or this would be the case in doctrinal issues and, you know, even the simple things like coffee. So I'm putting them on my shelf, right? And I remember, like, the first time I questioned, ever questioned the church. I was 14.

Janae Thompson [00:58:26] I was living in Harriman. We had this beautiful old church building. It was like one of the original church buildings built in the 1800s. So it was really quaint and people thought it was haunted. And anyway, we had this amazing church building. And I remember looking at the church building and I think thought, you know, this church building has been here for so long and it has so much history in it. And, you know, Joseph Smith restored this gospel and created all this. And I just cannot understand why, and I'm 14 years old, why God would bring in this doctrine of polygamy to his only true church, bringing it back to the earth.

Janae Thompson [00:59:13] It makes no sense when it like this, for so many years, years has been repelling to everybody outside the church. Like, this doesn't draw people into the faith. This repels them. And like, why would God put that into his restored church? It doesn't make any sense. Even if it were a, you know, a celestial principle, clearly the people weren't ready for it. Why would. Why would this be such a sabotaging element to bring into it that would create so many problems for the church, for the leaders, legal issues, and, you know, now today people are like, yeah, Mormons are weird. They're polygamous. I'm like, no, they haven't practiced it for years and years.

Janae Thompson [00:59:53] So it's this issue that never goes away and prevents people from hearing the truth. Like, their eyes and ears are close to the truth. You know, this is kind of what I thought. And I was like, that's just so weird. Like, that doesn't make any sense.

Janae Thompson [01:00:06] Like, how could God be that dumb? And then it's like, okay, well, it'll all work out in the end. We'll. We'll get the answers in the next life. But that was that first question that I asked at 14 years old. And I felt guilty because I was like, oh, am I questioning the truthfulness of the church?

Janae Thompson [01:00:22] And then I was like, I'm not going to think about that again. And then at that point, I was like, I want to find out about polygamy. And then the floodgates broke open of just the foundation of every. Every doctrinal aspect of the church that I had believed as true. And there was a different story behind what really happened versus what I was told told. And that's when kind of my heart just broke, because I. I value honesty and integrity completely. And if I'm lied to, I'd rather hear the truth if it's hard and it's going to hurt versus a lie just to make me feel good. And so that's when I just felt like everything I've been told is a lie.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] So. And this was again, a couple years ago, or just. Okay, and what were the sources that you consumed that taught you about Mormon polygamy?

Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

Janae Thompson [01:01:19] Okay, so. So what's interesting about that is one of the first things I listened to. So I. I found the CES letter. A friend of mine was like, well, have you read the CES letter? I was like, no, I read that. And I was just blown away. There was just so many more issues than I even thought, other than polygamy.

Janae Thompson [01:01:39] And. And then I had a friend. So. So then I was still kind of in this phase where I was like, well, Joseph Smith saw God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ. And, you know, what we know from that vision is that they're separate beings. And, like, that's a beautiful revelation that we've gotten. And, you know, I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. And I actually kind of got involved in this group called Doctrine of Christ. And they talk about how the Book of Mormon's true and the church kind of has been in apostasy since Brigham Young. And they're, Joseph Smith's going to come back, restore the church again for the last time in preparation for the Savior to come about.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] I've never heard of this group.

Janae Thompson [01:02:17] Oh, okay. You've got to check them out. They're really interesting. So it's called the Doctrine of Christ. And. And I got really into this group and learning about how they were interpreting the Book of Mormon, it was completely different because I was still like, I want to believe that the church is true. And I think it is. I just think all these little things, things don't really matter. And even with, like, my ceiling issue, I was like, well, I'm sure I could get sealed to somebody else if I took it up to the first presidency and wrote a letter and told him my story and blah, blah, blah, because, you know, like, I can.

Janae Thompson [01:02:49] I can make things happen. I don't feel Just subject to these rules. But at the same time, it's not easy. And, you know, if a policy is incorrect to get it corrected, it's this hard path. It just feels like, well, why was that policy even put into place if it's incorrect doctrine?

Janae Thompson [01:03:06] So I really liked the issue, like, the stance that this group took on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, the way Joseph Smith was a true prophet. They had this.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] Do they have a website?

Janae Thompson [01:03:23] I know they have a podcast on Spotify called Doctrine of Christ.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] I'll check it out. I've just never. It's weird. I've never heard of this.

Janae Thompson [01:03:29] Yeah, I'm actually surprised you haven't either. But. But it talks about how Brigham Young framed Joseph Smith as a polygamist because Brigham Young wanted to practice polygamy. Joseph Smith didn't actually practice polygamy. And they have all this evidence to, you know, support the idea that. And that's why in private, in public, Joseph Smith was always saying, I don't practice polygamy. And in private, his enemies were slandering him. You know, so they were saying in private, he was saying he was practicing polygamy, but in real life, he wasn't. And so he was this innocent prophet that, you know, was actually called to God, actually saw God, all those things.

Janae Thompson [01:04:07] And so, you know, I got really into this group for a while, and I really liked it. And then I started to feel like this just feels like another, like, organization in the same way with some different beliefs, but it's starting to feel like this is. You know, everybody in this group believes this thing, and they're following this one person. And. And so I kind of. I just stepped away from that again because I was like, okay, time for another step back.

John Dehlin [01:04:30] Are they connected to Denver Snuffer?

Janae Thompson [01:04:33] They're not, no.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] Do they meet. Do you. Did you meet people who are followers of

Janae Thompson [01:04:40] this? I don't. I don't want to say names on the podcast because there's issues with, you know, like, kind of what's happened in the last little bit. But. But that's something I can share, and that might be a really interesting podcast if you can kind of, like, get down to, like, what was happening with this group, because it was really drawing at first, and it felt like there was a lot of truth within it. And there's all these other beliefs that, like, the Melchizedek priesthood or the true priesthood isn't carried on through the LDS Church. It's through this other thing. And. Yeah. And the whole purpose of this Group is to get your second anointing and a witness of Christ. And I know Denver Snuffer, they kind of teach similar things things. But anyway, so I, I, I just really.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] Website. Doctrine of Christ dot com.

Janae Thompson [01:05:29] Yeah. And does it say who.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] I have no freaking idea.

Janae Thompson [01:05:32] Does it say who the, like, leader is or anything like that?

John Dehlin [01:05:35] Oh, they have a leader. That's. I'm already afraid. I mean, they have a podcast, they have some videos.

Janae Thompson [01:05:41] Yeah, yeah. There was no specific leader, but it, it kind of started turning into that. So anyway, and it's since had some real issues, and I don't want to get into the drama of it, which is why I don't want to say names on this. But, but it was something that I really felt like I was being led and guided to. Like, the actual LDS church is not churches or it is not Christ's church anymore. It's this other. It's the people who are called in their hearts to find this information, that type of idea.

Janae Thompson [01:06:14] And so I think that's where I kind of got the first idea of, you know, maybe the church has other issues. Like, maybe it's not the true church. I think that's the first time where I asked, maybe the church is not true because of this group. But then this group started to feel off to me. So I went, like, just, you know, stepped back again.

Janae Thompson [01:06:34] And that's when I then started finding people just in the community that had left the church. And I was just like, tell me about, like, how you did that, why you did that, what led you to that? Because, you know, if I leave this church that I still have ties to, it's true and it's tied to my eternal salvation.

Janae Thompson [01:06:54] This means I'm not making this choice for me. I'm making this for my kids, my posterity. I heard those conference talks where they're like, you know, one person left and, you know, 150 of their posterity were not members of the church because of this one person, you know, and it's like, I don't want to be that one person. I'll be condemned. And, you know, like, it's just all this fear around, like, this decision. If I leave, how is it going to affect everybody after me, you know, starting with my kids?

Janae Thompson [01:07:22] And so one, so then one friend gave me the podcast that you did with. It was on the Book of Mormon and the physical evidence of the Book of Mormon, and it was, was this archaeologist scholar. Do you remember his name that you did a podcast with? Yes. Michael Coe. Thank you. So I Listened to that podcast with Michael Coe. This is an archaeologist.

Janae Thompson [01:07:49] He's not talking about the Book of Mormon as a true or untrue book. He's just talking about physical evidence of the story. Like, is there any physical evidence to support this story? Has nothing to do with whether it's true or not, whether it's a spiritual text, any of that. And there's no physical evidence to support the story. Now, that doesn't mean you can't still believe, like, you know, it's a spiritual story that. But the Church is claiming that it actually happened. And so there's no physical evidence to support that claim. If the Church said, well, this is just a spiritual story that, you know, we wrote a couple hundred years ago and use it as a guide, it's like, okay, that's a really nice thought.

Janae Thompson [01:08:26] Like, I can believe that or not believe it or whatever, but no, this is. This really happened. And then there's this archeologist that's saying there's absolutely zero physical evidence of this. And I'm like, okay, I've heard many stories that there is physical evidence. We're uncovering it, and the reality is there, there's just not.

Janae Thompson [01:08:46] And that was really kind of a blow to, you know, all these things that I'd heard throughout my whole life. Again, it's like. Like, yeah, it's not really the case. And so then I'm trying to discover and get through, like, okay, I felt like this was reality. And now, like, evidence doesn't back that up.

Janae Thompson [01:09:11] And evidence doesn't back up that my family's forever. And evidence doesn't back up that we know what's going to happen in the next life. So now I'm seeing this pattern of just evidence not backing up things that I believed for so many years.

Janae Thompson [01:09:25] And, you know, and then I heard about, you know, all the different accounts of the first vision and. And then the different timing issues with, like, the priesthood. You know, they don't know when the priesthood was actually restored. And the account of the first vision was recorded, like, 12 years after, and nobody really knew about it for so long. And then Joseph Smith couldn't remember the date, and he couldn't remember what he really saw. And it just turned into the story. And I was like, I'm sorry.

Janae Thompson [01:09:51] If God appeared to you with two people, there'd be no question about it ever. Like, you'd remember when it happened. You'd remember what you saw. So I'm like, how can there be all these different accounts? And what does it mean? And the evidence is nobody was there with Joseph Smith when he saw it, so he can say whatever he wants. And the reality is nobody saw it but him, and he can tell whatever story he wants. And so that's the reality of it. And now that's how I see it, see this. So I don't know what to believe anymore.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] Wow. So you went down the rabbit hole.

Janae Thompson [01:10:26] Basically, yeah. So. And then from there, you know, I read CES Letter, I. I got onto Mormon podcasts. I. I just, like, delved into that, like, hardcore. Every topic that I was really interested in. At first I was super, super doctrinal, and then I got into all the stories. I didn't really even listen to the Mormon stories of people getting out of the church until I was clear on the doctrine that they didn't coincide with the stories I'd been told. And once I realized that, I was like, now I can make this decision. I know as surely as I knew the gospel was true at one point in my life, I know just as surely that it's not.

Janae Thompson [01:11:04] And, you know, it's like, in my mind, how do I flip flop so extreme from one extreme to the other? And it's. It just comes down to, once you see something that's true, you can't unsee it. And I can't unsee how history was recorded. I can't unsee the evidence that doesn't support the stories. I can't unsee the, the dates and the times of, you know, what was recorded versus a story that's completely different from that. I can't. I can't go back and unsee that. And I just feel so hurt that I've been told all these lies. Like, why didn't someone think that I could handle the truth?

Janae Thompson [01:11:44] And so they had to lie to make me believe or make me do something. It just felt very manipulative. And that just, that hurt me so deeply that I felt like at that point, I can't even engage with this organization, period.

Janae Thompson [01:12:00] I love the people and I wish. I wish I could engage with the organization. I wish I could be a part of the community. I wish I could, and I cannot. Now

Margi Dehlin [01:12:16] I'm curious, what was the time frame for the rabbit hole like, if you had to kind of say, what period of time?

Janae Thompson [01:12:24] Yeah. So a quick time frame is so Grant dies, I panic, thinking I'm being punished. Go right back to everything for about six months, Go back to church, go back to the temple. I'm struggling as a single mom to get my kids ready for church. Every week I'm showing up, I'm feeling. Feeling horrible, overwhelmed, all these things. And I realized that I found the true definition of hell through this process, and that is getting my children ready for church is hell.

Janae Thompson [01:12:50] And so, you know, through that lens, I was like, that's when I kind of came to that. After about six months, I'm like, this isn't working for me anymore. And I just stopped. And then I took about another six months to just kind of sit in that stopped space.

Janae Thompson [01:13:04] And then I. So this is about a year after Grant died. I'm starting to feel like, okay, this is not coming back. And starting to look around, dating LDS guys. And even in my dating profile just say, you know, like, I'm not super active in the church, but I have the background of it, you know, because I don't want you to think I'm this super amazing, faithful person when I'm not going to church at all.

Janae Thompson [01:13:29] Disclaimer. You know, like, I'm all about, like, these are the things that are some of the issues. And then I'm getting these responses from guys, and then I'm like, okay, so now I need to look into this. About another six months go by, and I kind of just look into some of these issues. So now this is about a year and a half after Grant died. And then I'm starting to see these things. And then I'm like, I don't know if I can believe anymore. And that's when I was like, okay, if I'm going to make this choice, Deep dive doctrine, I've got to learn all the things because I've got to make the right choice here.

Janae Thompson [01:14:02] So this was about 2020, like the end of 2020, beginning of 21, and I think about midway through 21 to 22, that's when I was just deep into it. I found, you know, the CES letter. I read Rough Stone rolling. I got Fawn Brody's book. I was listening to Mormon podcasts and, and. And talking to people who had gone through this. And then.

Janae Thompson [01:14:29] And I've kind of been in that space, like, and. And then I made that decision, like, yep, I can't engage. I can't engage. And that was about a year ago that I made that choice. But it had been, you know, the whole process of getting to that place where I, like, I think I'm going to leave the church, but I'm not sure yet. So I'm not going to tell anybody because I don't want to be dramatic about all this. And I don't want to cause an uproar in my family. And.

Janae Thompson [01:14:53] And then when I knew, I knew, and I. I just knew I couldn't engage in the organization with. And be. Be, have integrity with myself. And so that was about a year ago, maybe a little bit longer. A year to 18 months ago.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:12] So.

Janae Thompson [01:15:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] And that framing is always disorienting for believing Mormons.

Janae Thompson [01:15:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] Because they think the only person that leaves the Mormon Church is someone who's wicked and wants to sin.

Janae Thompson [01:15:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] But what you're saying is it was a matter of integrity for you to leave the Mormon Church.

Janae Thompson [01:15:30] Yeah, 100%. And it was one of those things where now that I know this to be in line with my value of honesty and really, like, supporting the truth, I can't engage at all anymore. I can't go to church just to show up. I can't go to the, you know, like, church activities just because they're community things or whatever. I just like anything that this organization is sponsoring, I cannot engage with. Now, of course, like, I mean, I love the people in my community, and I want to be able to be a part of that, but if it's a church thing, I can't. You know, I just cannot go out of my own, you know, free will and choice.

Janae Thompson [01:16:13] Now, if my sister is gonna bless a baby, I'm gonna go and support my sister and, you know, I'll go for those kinds of things. And I, I, you know, I'm going to love all of the traditions that we've had that are still important to the people that I love. But for me, I can't engage from any desire that I have to engage.

John Dehlin [01:16:33] Wow.

Janae Thompson [01:16:34] Yeah.

Rethinking the Afterlife and Belief in Reunion

John Dehlin [01:16:34] And what did that do to your beliefs about seeing Grant again and being married to him in the afterlife? If you want to share.

Janae Thompson [01:16:41] Yeah, that's such a good question. And, you know, I just feel. Feel like, do I believe I'll see him again? I do. Do I believe he still exists? Yeah. Do I know what he looks like? No. Is he maybe an energy? Maybe he's just like an existence, you know, maybe he'll be reborn into another body and life continues. I mean, I don't have any theology that I say, this is what I know. I just think any of those things are possibilities. And I don't think that I'll just never see him again.

Janae Thompson [01:17:12] And I don't discount that as also a possibility. But I've had enough experiences since he died, feeling like a spiritual presence, feeling him around, like, you know, we have this. A lot of people will find Little things that remind them of their loved one, and they kind of show up all the time. One of the things we have is hearts. So every time we see a heart, you know, me and my kids will be like, oh, I love you, dad. You know, and it's just.

Janae Thompson [01:17:38] I mean, it's just one of those things where I do think that, like, our connection has not ended. And what the future brings, I can't say because I don't know. And I've never met anybody that knows and can tell me. And you know, like, I don't care what a prophet says. He knows. He's just telling you what he is claiming he saw. And there's no proof for it. And I'm not saying it's not true, but I'm also saying. Saying you can't prove it and there's no evidence to support what you're saying. And I'm not. I'm not going to believe anymore just because someone told me, just because they said they had authority.

Janae Thompson [01:18:20] And so, you know, it's. It's a hard question to answer, but I remember after we did his celebration of life, it was just a couple days after he had died, you know, and I. I came home and I. I had given this speech to everybody there, and they were just like, wow, you seem so different. And I felt like at that time I had almost like, taken on some of the gifts he had, like the gift to speak and the gift to be engaging with people. And it's like I almost felt like that was like I had taken on part of his gifts and talents.

Janae Thompson [01:18:50] And after that, I came home in my bathroom and I was just standing there alone. And I felt like what it felt like when he would come and hug me, like in physical reality, it felt like an exact replica of that. And he wasn't there and I couldn't see him, but it felt like he was. And it felt just the way it did when he was alive. And I was like, like, that's amazing. And this feels so good and you're gone, and this hurts too much to hug. So I pulled away. And I could feel his sadness when I pulled away, you know, and it's like you have these connections with people, and the more you know them, the more you understand how their energy works.

Janae Thompson [01:19:24] And I feel like I felt his energy. And it's like when he came, you know, at 9:30, he'd been dead for 15 minutes. And I said, I want Grant here to. To see me and Riley cuddling in the bed, reading and playing our games. And he was right there. It's like, I called him and he came. We didn't know yet what that really meant for our relationship, but in that moment, I felt him and where the hearts came from. We had gone to the crash site where he died. And as I was hiking back up, I saw this really cool rock jutting out of the mountain.

Janae Thompson [01:19:55] And it was his favorite color, so I picked it up and I turned it around, and it was just shaped like a heart. And in that moment, moment, I heard these words, you know, in my mind, I'll send you hearts. And I was like, oh, okay, he's gonna send me hearts. And, you know, and I. And I see hearts all the time. And is that kind of that reticular activator thing that, you know, like, when you start noticing, you notice. Right. And I found. When I was a little girl and I was scared of things, and I heard the door creak or the door would, you know, open and shut, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, it's a ghost.

Janae Thompson [01:20:25] And then, like, the reality is, well, actually, the door wasn't sealed, and there was a big wind gust, and it came, and it just opened and closed the door. Like, there's a way to explain everything. And so there is a way to explain everything if you can find out what the evidence is.

Janae Thompson [01:20:41] And that doesn't mean we have all the evidence either. So that's kind of a long answer to that question. And that's where I, like, I go off what I know. And what I know is I've felt his presence. I've never seen him again, so I don't know if I'll ever see him again.

Janae Thompson [01:20:57] And I think there's a chance. And I also think. Think that, you know, that was it, and I'll never see him again. Like, it's kind of all of those things.

Rebuilding Identity, Freedom, and New Perspectives

John Dehlin [01:21:08] Well, now we get to Margi's favorite part of Mormon stories, which is the rebuilding and the reconstruction, because, you know, you lost your faith, but I'm looking at your outline. You've got this long list of bullets enumerating the freedoms.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Do you want to. Do you want to talk about. About how you have been rebuilding your life, what, in your early 40s after.

Janae Thompson [01:21:32] Yeah, yeah. I had my 40th birthday last year, so I'm, you know, I started. I kind of ended my 30s, and I'm like, okay, 40s when life starts for me. But, yeah, it's been this really therapeutic feeling of I can ask any question I want, and I don't Ever have to be afraid of the answer anymore. And that's led me down paths that I could never have seen myself even exploring at one point in my life.

Janae Thompson [01:22:02] And this is where, like, this. Such a feeling of empowerment comes from that. You know, I've been told my whole life, like, you can do anything you want. You can be anything you want. And I'm like, yeah, okay. But then I have all these limitations placed on me, and I don't know where they're coming from and why they're there, but I just feel them. And I feel like this is the first time in my life where I felt like I am choosing to release all those limitations, which means now I'm in charge of whatever growth I want, whatever experience I want, whatever learning I want to have, whatever.

Janae Thompson [01:22:35] Just anything that I want to do. And not only that, not only can I choose anything, it's all okay. There's no shame, there's no guilt. There's no, you know, negative connotation that goes. There's no taboo. It's okay. Like, this is the reality. And I think that the biggest thing that I've learned from this whole experience is to look at reality and, you know, in this moment, you know, I'm sitting in a chair with a blanket around me. I've got my kids. Somebody's watching my kids. I'm not with my kids right now. That's the reality. And if I were to say, you know, oh, I'm so worried about my kids, I need to get home, I couldn't be sitting here talking about this thing that's so important to me, which.

Janae Thompson [01:23:18] Which is the story of progression. And I feel like it's really important to me, and I trust that my kids are being taken care of, but not only that, I don't have to. The reality is they're not here. Does that mean they don't exist? No, they still exist. They're just not in my present reality. And so looking back on my life, I remember thinking, well, Grant and I are gonna be together forever. So this issue that I don't wanna bring up right now, I'll just wait because it'll all work out in the end. And so I missed opportunities to. To be present in reality and address things that were on my heart in that moment.

Janae Thompson [01:23:50] And I didn't because I was scared or there was a limitation or there was shame around it. And so in those moments when I chose that I wasn't living in reality, I was looking to a future that didn't exist. And the future that doesn't exist, can never be a place to live. It's just delusion. And the past you can learn from and you should learn from. And there's lots of lessons to be learned from the past. But the past. The past doesn't dictate what you create right now either. And if you're living in the past, that limits you just as much as if you're living for some future that doesn't exist, because the past no longer exists either.

Janae Thompson [01:24:25] And so I just feel like there's this abundant freedom of letting go of everything on both sides. And it doesn't mean that just because my kids aren't here right now, I'm never going to see them again. And I might not. I don't know.

Janae Thompson [01:24:42] But it also doesn't mean that I can plan on seeing my husband again just because I don't see him right now. And so for me, that translates into I get to create the life that I've always dreamed of living. And this whole time I've been living, I thought I was doing that. And now I get to do it at a completely new level of perspective where all the limitations I had before are gone. And it's just. It's an indescribable feeling of freedom.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] So let's talk about some of the freedoms.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] You want to.

Janae Thompson [01:25:20] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:20] Okay. So you list a bunch. Do you want me to? Do you want me to.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:24] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:25:24] I don't. Yeah, I don't remember what I put, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:26] Yeah, please.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] Okay. So the first one you mentioned mentioned is. Well, you talk about your status with the church and your membership.

Janae Thompson [01:25:38] Yeah. So I'm still on the records, and I haven't taken my name off, but I went up into my mountain behind my house, and I just thought, like, what if I wasn't a member? And I just visualized, like, what would it feel like to have no ties? And it felt like the most freeing moment of my life. And this was probably about two years ago, and I was like, I would never do that, but, like, what would it feel like? And then. And that feeling that it imparted to me of, like, there's no restrictions. You don't have to, you know, do all these things that are on the temple recommend interview to be worthy.

Janae Thompson [01:26:10] You're just worthy. You're just worthy. Like, that's who you are. You're worthy. And, like, that thought was like, wow, okay. Like, I'm worthy and I will always be worthy, and I don't have to do anything. And if I make a mistake, I Get to learn from it versus punish myself and then have to repent for it because I did something bad. Like, I don't have to repent anymore. And I can just hear, like, the groans from, you know, like, that type of a statement. It's not that I don't have to repent and I can do whatever I want. It's that I now have the ability to use every experience as I have, just like Christ did, to be something that you learn and grow from, versus an event that defines you.

Janae Thompson [01:26:49] Like an event that defines you. That could be my husband's death, and I could just be like, poor me. You know, I'm a poor widow. I. I can't do anything. The church won't let me. I can't date. You know, I. I could take all of those stances.

Janae Thompson [01:27:02] And the reality is, is I can do whatever I want. And if I don't have those limitations, I get to create whatever life I want. And so from that space, it just feels like, okay, I can take my name off. I. I could do that. But where my children are young, and I want them to be included in our community, I don't feel like that's the best option for me right now.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:24] Now.

Janae Thompson [01:27:25] But it's not because I still believe or it's not because I want to be a part of the community. It's just because, like, for the greater good of my family right now, I feel like that's the right thing to do, and I think it will be something that I do in, you know, the near future, because it's a desire that I have, and I don't. I want to, like, make a stand that I'm not a part of this community.

Janae Thompson [01:27:45] And I think maybe even there's this fear of not being accepted in, you know, a predominantly LDS neighborhood. Neighborhood. But at the same time, like, I know where I'm at, and the freedom that that brings came from that visualization of, what would it be like if I did that? And in practice, is it the right time? No, it's not. And I'm going to choose that versus, oh, well, I don't want to be shunned. You know, it's like, no, I'm choosing this right now for a specific purpose.

John Dehlin [01:28:11] Okay. The next one's around your body and shame and stress and all that stuff sort of thing.

Janae Thompson [01:28:19] When I was a teenager, it was just like, you know, your shorts have to come down at least past your fingers, and if you're not, like, there was just all of this. If you dress a certain way boys are going to think a certain thing and it's going to be your fault. And like I just, now I'm like, I get to wear what's comfortable and what I feel beautiful in, and that's why I'm wearing what I wear. I'm not wearing it to impress anybody. I'm not wearing it to be modest. I'm not wearing it to be immodest. I'm wearing it because. Because I feel beautiful and I feel comfortable and those are my objectives and the freedom that that brings me.

Janae Thompson [01:28:53] It means I can dress myself however I want, where I feel connected to what I'm wearing. And to me, that's a beautiful expression of who I am. And I've never been able to feel like I could express myself that way without limitation.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] You like that, Margi? Okay, the next one you have is copy coffee.

Janae Thompson [01:29:16] Oh, yeah. Okay, so I love coffee. Yeah, It's.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] I just have to say, this morning I wake up and I come upstairs to give Margue the morning hug and she's in the middle of making coffee,

Margi Dehlin [01:29:27] which in other words would mean half asleep still, because I have not had the coffee.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] And, and this was just cute. And I, I go to hug her and she, she kind of gave me a side half hug, but she, she didn't fully want to pull away.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:42] I did not stop from her coffee. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:47] Speaking of the joys of coffee.

Janae Thompson [01:29:49] Yes. So this was really like, oh, such an interesting experience because when I was like, okay, I can allow myself to drink this, you know, is it going to be okay? You know, and then I am still waiting, just ducking a little bit, you know, am I going to get struck by lightning? And then I don't. And so I'm like, oh, okay, this is like, I'll take another sip. And I just. Like for me, in the morning, my morning routine has changed, like, significantly because now I have this beautiful warm cup of coffee that I love. And I've tried it with tea, I've tried it with other things, but nothing, nothing fulfills me and satisfies me the way coffee does.

Janae Thompson [01:30:26] And I put my coconut creamer in it, and then I put some brain octane in it, and I put my collagen peptides in it, you know, and. And it's just so filling. And it's an experience that I have every morning. And I feel better when I stand up and walk away after sitting down, nurturing myself, feeling relaxed, drinking this drink that's warm and it's yummy and it has all my favorite things in it. And I'm. I just remember thinking, any church that would prevent this from happening has gotta be of the devil, you know? Cause this is just so wonderful, so true. And I've tried to use all these other things, you know, before.

Janae Thompson [01:31:02] It's like. And nothing, nothing compares to it. And the other part of this is, so I have adhd and I was diagnosed back in the day, and I've tried medications and all this kind of stuff, and I would self medicate with stimulants like this, but I wouldn't know how to use them properly. So I just keep taking them. And what I found is with other sources of caffeine that I was using because I thought coffee, caffeine was so bad, I just needed more and more and more. Whereas coffee, for some reason, it affects my body in such an effective way that I have one cup of coffee and I feel like my brain's turned on and I'm ready for the day.

Janae Thompson [01:31:39] And I'm like, if my body responds to it this way, the reality is, is that I feel like it's helping me so much. And I don't have the crashes that, you know, maybe some people have. I don't have problems sleeping. And so to me, like, these are all the things that held me back from that because it was bad. And I associated that to why it's bad.

Janae Thompson [01:31:57] But the reality is when I just tried it for myself and saw how it affected my body, it was. Everything was positive. Positive experience, positive taste, positive relaxation, positive taking time for myself, you know. And like, this drink did that for me. I don't know why. It just did. And for all these years, I withheld that from myself because I thought it was bad.

John Dehlin [01:32:23] And it's gotta be better than Adderall.

Janae Thompson [01:32:24] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:25] For your system. No offense to those who need to medicinally take Adderall or Ritalin, methamphetamines, basically.

Janae Thompson [01:32:32] Right.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] Like. And yet the only reason coffee's been deprived from Mormons for 200 years is because of some comment Emma made arbitrarily. Like.

Janae Thompson [01:32:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] It's so strange. And that also goes back to your polygamy point. Why was tons of Latin Americans just wouldn't consider Jordan and Europeans and humans.

Janae Thompson [01:32:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:53] Just wouldn't consider joining the church because conflict is prohibited or people are kept out of temples or kept out of missions or even their salvation because they drink coffee.

Janae Thompson [01:33:03] Yeah. So you're telling me this beautiful experience that I have where I feel connected to myself and I feel connected spiritually. And I even sit there and I'll talk to God. What are we gonna do today? You're telling me that's wrong? There's no evidence for me in my life to support that.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:21] Can I say something that is just really beautiful about the language you're using around rebuilding. And it's tying a little bit back to your earlier. Your last interview that we did when you were talking about your early kind of days with Grant in the basement of the small house and you guys would do experiments is you're doing experiments. Yeah. And that's the language kind of. That you're using, which I really love. Love, because it's this idea of being fully alive, testing out things and just noticing and taking data. And I just. I really love that approach for this. Like a new chapter or rebuilding something.

Janae Thompson [01:34:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:10] You're having these mini experiments where you are reflecting and noticing in your life what you see, what you feel.

Janae Thompson [01:34:19] Yeah. And that's such a beautiful way to rephrase that. Thank you, Margi. Because it really. I mean, that is what I'm doing. And I don't know that I've even done that super consciously, but that's the method I've been following because it works for me. And I need to see how things work before I can make a decision. And, you know, this is one of the things that I have as a limitation all these years that I feel like the church has, like, the culture of the church and the religion has thrust upon me is that we're telling you this is wrong or this is bad or this is the way to do it.

Janae Thompson [01:34:52] So just do what we say versus, well, what if I did this the other way? Well, you're gonna have a bad experience. Okay. Was it okay if I have a bad experience? It's like, well, no, we gotta save you from all the mistakes and pain. And it's like, okay, but like, I'm never gonna be able to engage unless I know. Know the opposite side of that. And then I'll have a conviction for myself of why I'm doing this. So I'm drinking coffee now because it feeds my soul. And I feel more connected to God than I ever have in a, you know, sacrament meeting even, you know. And so that's my evidence. And I was withheld from that experience for so many years because I was told it was bad.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] Thanks, Marks. Okay, well, speaking of experimentation and trying new things on your list, next is. Let's see. Why don't we have. You have mothering outside the proclamation?

Janae Thompson [01:35:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:53] What does that mean?

Janae Thompson [01:35:55] Okay, so I think I was referring to that. So I am. I remember, you know, the roles are clearly defined between moms and dads. And right after, you know, moms are for nurturing, dads are for protecting and providing and presiding. And that was the role that I really tried to play within my perfect Mormon family.

Janae Thompson [01:36:19] And I felt like in a lot of ways, there's two parts to this. In a lot of ways, I was held back from what I as a strong and powerful mother, what I could do with my children. On the other hand, after my husband died, I tried to take over the role of mom and dad and I tried to be both. And that was a really horrible failed experiment because I make a horrible father. But what I learned through that is I can be a very powerful mother towards my like as I mother my children. And I now mother them fiercely. And what I mean by that is I love them fiercely, I teach them fiercely, and I nurture them through that.

Janae Thompson [01:36:59] But nurturing to me now is not just, oh, come here, let me hug you. Nurturing is like, I will show you what this means. I will teach you this principle. I will hold this boundary. And if you cross it, I'm gonna let you have the experience that happens so that you can learn. Whereas before I was just always trying to save em, you know, and nurture them and feel like I was being that good, wonderful mother. And I had my provider and protector that was supposed to fill this role. And if he didn't fill it, then I tried to make up for it in these other ways.

Janae Thompson [01:37:27] And then when he was gone, then I tried to take it over. And then I just realized none of these roles are my most powerful way to mother. And now I'm grounded in the most beautiful thing I can do to mother is love my children fiercely and teach them directly. I love it as a mom that loves them unconditionally, providing that we have boundaries in that unconditional life.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] Love it. And I see Margi nodding, so I think she agrees. Margi also mothers fiercely, in my opinion.

Janae Thompson [01:38:01] I love that.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:03] Yes, probably likely.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Tell us the story of, of the lesbian couple at the hotel.

Janae Thompson [01:38:14] Okay. This was a complete shift. So now I'm out of the church. Now I'm like, okay, I want to, to just accept things as they are. And I've had this teaching in the back of my brain that this is such a wrong practice. And, you know, that same sex attraction is a wrong feeling and a wrong practice. I mean, this is what I've been told. What I actually feel is like my, my real raw Opinion is. I don't know. Like, I don't. That doesn't make sense that, you know, God would make people. People, quote, flawed like that. Because when I talk to these people, it's like, this is who I am.

Janae Thompson [01:38:54] And. And I can relate to that feeling. Like, when I feel this is who I am, I feel like that's the way I was made. And so I always had this, like, in the logical teaching of how the church teaches about that, about gays and lesbians and all of that kind of stuff. It's just, like, blanket wrong.

Janae Thompson [01:39:11] And in my heart, I'm like, I don't know. But I can't question this because, you know, this is one of the things. And, you know, because this relationship doesn't lead to the traditional family where you can have children. It must be contrary to God's plan. So that's kind of where I was for a lot of years. And so I had taken a little trip just by myself to a hotel just for one night. I had to get away. Somebody was watching my kids. And I was staying at this really lovely hotel, hotel in Salt Lake. And I was at the pool, and I was sipping on my.

Janae Thompson [01:39:46] It was like a strawberry rose. So it was a. You know, it was strawberries and a little bit of wine, and it was just, like, so lovely. And in comes this couple, these two girls. And. And I didn't know that they were, you know, a couple, but I just sat there and observed them. And then I realized that they were a lesbian couple, and they were showing affection towards each other. And. And then they undressed, and they were wearing these swimsuits that were extremely risque. So now I'm having these.

Janae Thompson [01:40:13] I mean, they just didn't cover much. And so I'm having all of these reactions to what I'm seeing in front of me. And. And I'm like, okay, is what I'm thinking about this true? And I'm thinking, you know, there's kids at the pool. They can see this really immodest bikini. And I'm not opposed to bikinis, but this is just strings, you know? And, like, what are the men thinking? And they're like, these women are practically naked and they're kissing. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. Like, the. You know, this is. I'm really uncomfortable with this. And the men are going to be gawking. And then I just stopped, and I was like, wait a minute.

Janae Thompson [01:40:49] You know what? I can actually see, like, a lot of really, like, genuine love and affection that they're sharing back and forth, and it's really, really beautiful to watch. And I've never been in a situation space where I can allow that to be okay. And so as I watched them interact and how happy they were, I just remember thinking, how could I have felt that love is wrong ever?

Janae Thompson [01:41:17] And then. And then I was like, you know, and the human body's beautiful. And just like, I want to be able to dress the way I want to because I feel beautiful. I can tell how beautiful they feel. Like they look.

Janae Thompson [01:41:28] And, you know, the female body, the male body, they have a general form, and they're the same across the board. And if a guy's gonna look at a. A woman's body cause it's less dressed, that's his choice. I don't have to. I don't have to control it. I don't have to think she should cover up so he doesn't think this. I just.

Janae Thompson [01:41:46] Everyone can make their own choice. And if a. If a man wants to look at a beautiful woman's body and appreciate it, that's his choice. I don't have to worry about that. And I can sit here and I can appreciate how beautiful, beautiful they are together in this whole scene that they've created in their joy. Like they're on some vacation or something. I don't know what they're here for, but I, like. I just went from this place of, like, oh, my gosh, I'm triggered. I'm not sure how to, like, respond to this, to, this is so beautiful. And I can't believe that I've never seen the beautiful aspects of this and allowed everybody to be responsible for their own eyes and their own feelings and their own experience.

Janae Thompson [01:42:21] And this. That was so freeing for me to just sit there and experience that without any of the judgment or looking at the judgment and then letting it go. And it was this really empowering experience of I can do this every time. Every time I feel something come into my mind. That's a false belief.

Janae Thompson [01:42:39] I can sit with it, and I can look at what's the reality and what's the evidence showing me. The evidence is showing me joy. I don't know the ins and outs of their relationship and all that, but what I'm seeing before. Before me is real, true joy and happiness. And I am so happy for them. And that was just really empowering to be able to make that choice for myself, to feel that way.

John Dehlin [01:43:02] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:03] Such a powerful reframe. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:06] Thanks for sharing. So the next few bullets had to do with exploring Sexuality as a non believing Mormon, as an adult in your 30s and 40s, when you've only really had one sexual partner your whole life.

Janae Thompson [01:43:20] Yeah. And, you know, there's beautiful things taught around, you know, sexuality within a marriage. And Grant and I were virgins when we got married. We'd never been with anybody else. We had only been with each other. And I just remember thinking, you know, like, the second question I asked myself was like, who am I gonna have sex with? Because in the culture, sex is only appropriate in marriage with the opposite gender.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:43] Gender.

Janae Thompson [01:43:44] And I was like, I don't want to just run off and get married so that I can have sex. Like, that sounds like a disaster financially and parentally and, you know, all these different ways. And so, you know, and I don't really feel like being celibate for the rest of my life or until I find somebody to marry that fits all the criteria of, like, family is gonna work for me. And so in my mind at that time, I was kind of like, well, you know, God doesn't give us trials that, that are harder than we can handle. So I feel like maybe this is a pass for me.

Janae Thompson [01:44:16] Like, and, you know, maybe I can date and explore sexually and have sex and be intimate before I get married, because I don't want to just feel like I need to get married to have sex. And I don't want to rush into a marriage. And I also don't want to be without that aspect of my life for a long time.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] And this is before you lost your faith, right? Is that what you're saying or not?

Janae Thompson [01:44:37] So this. Yeah, about six months after, After Grant died, I was like, I don't see myself being celibate and I hadn't considered dating. I hadn't like even really approached the subject yet until that point. But I was like, I don't see myself being celibate. I don't see myself jumping into a marriage. This is when I'm still faithful and I'm like, healthy.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] Like, the worst thing you and your four kids need.

Janae Thompson [01:44:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:57] Is to jump into some marriage with some dude that you don't really know.

Janae Thompson [01:45:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:02] And bring extra disaster upon disaster to your life.

Janae Thompson [01:45:06] Yeah. And so at that point, I made this decision. I was like, you know, I'm an adult and I'm going to date and I'm an Eng, and I'm going to engage in adult relationships the way adults do that. And part of that is being sexually active with someone I have not, I'm not married to, because I. I need to Explore that. And I need to, you know, make sure that I'm not making bad decisions, because I want something outside of what that decision really is.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] Now, two big problems with that. If you're still believing. What you were still believing is, number one one, morms are taught that extramarital sex is a sin next to murder. Right. And then the second is, if your bishop finds out, you likely are facing excommunication.

Janae Thompson [01:45:43] Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] How did you reconcile that?

Janae Thompson [01:45:46] So this is an interesting story. The first time. So it was about a year after Grant died that I did start dating somebody. And we did have sex. And I was, like, really just felt super guilty about it. And I was still going to church. And I mean, maybe the. The time frame was, like, shortly. It was still, like, before I really wanted to date, but I had met somebody that I really like, and I thought maybe I could, you know, marry this guy. And he was lds.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] And didn't you go to the temple and that night?

Janae Thompson [01:46:18] Yeah, we had gone to the temple on one of our dates, and, you know, and I had said, you know, like, okay, here's how I feel about sex. Like, I want to explore that. Not till I'm ready, but I also. Also don't feel like I could just date someone without having sex. So I want you to know, like, where I stand on that. And, you know, he was all on board. And so, you know, we kept dating, and we went to the temple, and it wasn't, like, a super serious relationship, but it got to the point where, you know, like, I hadn't been physical with anyone for so long, and just, like, kissing somebody was like, oh, my gosh, I remember this.

Janae Thompson [01:46:51] And then I was like, I don't know how to not engage in the way that I'm used to. And so we did end up having sex, and. And I felt so guilty for, like, two weeks. And I finally. And I. I remember sitting in church, and I was like, I have to go tell my bishop, because, like, according to my beliefs, this is wrong, evil, like, almost murder. And again, like, this is going to have a.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:16] A.

Janae Thompson [01:47:17] An effect on my eternal salvation. So I got to go get this cleared up. So I made an appointment with my bishop. I went in, I told him, I said, bishop, I've broken the law of chastity. And, you know, to his credit, he was so kind and so compassionate, and. And he was just. And I thought, really that I would be excommunicated, but I was like, again, I'm committed to the truth of what reality is, and I've done This. And if that's the consequence, I'm now willing to, you know, take that consequence. And so I went in there thinking, I'm going to get excommunicated. And he was so compassionate.

Janae Thompson [01:47:48] And he's like, you've been through a lot. And, you know, like, our bodies are. Are part of our experience here, and it's normal and natural. And, I mean, he wanted to know a little bit about the experience and, like, the circumstances and all that kind of stuff. And I told him, and he's like, yeah, you're.

Janae Thompson [01:48:04] I mean, he just kind of said, you're. You're. You're doing the best you can. And he's like, do you have a temple recommend? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, we'll just get there as much as you can and we'll keep meeting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:15] Like, on the one hand, I'm just so happy about that, Bishop.

Janae Thompson [01:48:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:19] And then I'm thinking of the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Mormon men and women that have either been excommunicated or severely disciplined for the exact same behaviors. Why did you get a pass? Like, I'm glad you got a pass. I'm sure your husband passing away was part of it.

Janae Thompson [01:48:36] Part of it, probably.

John Dehlin [01:48:37] But I'm sure there's people throwing their beverages at the screen based on what they suffered for doing something.

Janae Thompson [01:48:47] And I hesitate even to share that because of that reason. It's like, this bishop was really compassionate, and he treated me like a human being instead of. You didn't follow the rules. And so this is what happens. And. And I was prepared for that because I'd heard so many stories, and I was afraid, but I did it. And I was so grateful for the way I was treated. And in that, there's no standard of how these situations are approached. And there are. There's no professional standard for how to, you know, deal with all of these different situations. Because it's not fair that some other woman.

Janae Thompson [01:49:27] I'm sure that some other woman that's been widowed and had an intimate relationship had a completely different experience at some point in somewhere in the world. You know, I just. Because it's not standard. It's like, yeah, I did have a hard thing happen. It's related to my partner and my sexuality, so it makes sense. And at the same time, if I get a pass, does that mean I keep getting passes? And this is where that line just gets blurred of, well, this is the doctrine, and this is how, you know, we implement it. And, okay, you had a Hard thing. So you get one pass.

Janae Thompson [01:50:01] So then do I get to do it again and do I get another pass? It's just so, it's just such a gray area. And the only thing I'm grateful for is that my bishop just saw me as a human being.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:14] And also, can we just take a moment and observe that it is a bit strange for a grown woman with four children to go in and report on her, you know, personal sexual experience. Experience. And then be like, thank you. The man approved, allowing me to be okay, yes, 100% chose for myself that didn't harm anyone. And you know, but he did want

John Dehlin [01:50:49] to know a little bit of the details.

Janae Thompson [01:50:50] Yeah, he did. But I also, like on your point, Margi, like from that experience, I was like, yeah, I'm a grown ass woman. I am not talking to some man I don't know about my sexual sexuality ever again. Like, that is never going to happen again. This is like, it felt different. Yeah. This is my personal life. These are my personal choices. There's no one outside of me that needs to know about that besides me and my partner. Like. Yeah. And that was a decision I made at that point that I was like, yeah, I'm not doing that again.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:20] It was another experiment.

Janae Thompson [01:51:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:22] Where you noticed how you felt.

Janae Thompson [01:51:24] Yeah, yeah. And it was in line with me following, like I felt guilty. Guilty. And this is the process that I was taught to follow. So I will follow it, see how it goes. And now I'm going to make a new decision and I'm now empowered to actually take this as my choice. And I don't need anybody else to approve it or disapprove it or have a consequence, like I'm in charge of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:46] Which, that's such a beautiful moment too, because it allows you to kind of trace where you had interchange because you did the same thing, you followed the same conditioning that you had in other moments of going in and telling the bishop things that, you know, may or may not have been. But this time you actually, you know, you were different.

Janae Thompson [01:52:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:10] It affected you differently. And then you. Yeah. Chose differently moving forward. Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:52:15] And it showed me how I get to choose that versus I'm not just subject to the system anymore or that

Margi Dehlin [01:52:20] you could get, get outside the conditioning

Janae Thompson [01:52:22] and do something different. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] Yeah. Okay. This is great. So the, the next question I have then is for, for a lot of, you know, there are a lot of ex Mormons, for example, divorcing and, and, or experimenting in their marriage. But, but this idea, you know, we Were all taught that marriage is sacred, you should only. Sorry, the sex is sacred. You should only do it when you're married. And then I think what would come along with that is the idea that, okay, maybe not only when you're married, but maybe only with a partner who you're serious with, who maybe you're engaged to. You know what I mean? But this idea of like sexual activity just for pleasure, for pleasure, for hookups, for dating, first date, second date.

John Dehlin [01:53:09] Like, what if you were to say, sort of give any wisdom or counsel to somebody who's just at the beginning trying to figure out what to explore? I mean, I guess part of what you're saying is just explore. But I, but I imagine you can get hurt, right? Imagine there are, there is danger, there are significant risks.

John Dehlin [01:53:30] So knowing that you also wanted to just let people have their experiences, what would you say to some newly divorced ex Mormon woman or man that's like, all right, how do I handle sex?

Janae Thompson [01:53:42] Yeah, and it's such a big question. And honestly, that was one of the things I was like, I wish I could find a resource to help me through this because, like, what do I do about sex? Nobody asked me, you know, well, what are you doing for your sexual health? It's like, oh, just don't talk about that around her because she can't have sex. You know.

Janae Thompson [01:53:58] And so I felt really exiled from the whole like sexual community of this connection that we had before. Like married couples can talk about sex, you know, now it's like, oh, well, you're not married anymore, so you can't talk about it.

Janae Thompson [01:54:11] And you know, at first it was just like, okay, I don't know what I'm going to do. I know for sure that I'm not going to be able to, you know, follow the counsel of only sex inside a marriage. And so where do I go from there?

Janae Thompson [01:54:24] You know, what are the things that I need to look at? And so for me, as I approach that question, I needed to feel really safe. I needed to feel very like I am making a choice and I want to engage in an experience and, and I'm going to follow my heart and I'm going to keep myself safe and be healthy within the whole experience. And so I created these parameters for myself of, you know, I'm not going to do like a one night stand thing. I'm not going to be with somebody I don't know. You know, I just came up with kind of like my personal rules around, around that.

Janae Thompson [01:55:01] And what was interesting is, you know, like when I started dating the first person that I started dating. I just thought to myself, you know, and this is after the whole Bishop experience, like when I was actually like, ready to start dating. This was a while after, and I found somebody that I, you know, wanted to spend time with and enjoyed spending time with. I wasn't in a space for like, even a committed relationship, but I was pretty like, ground down from the whole, like, like, grind of everyday mothering and business. And like, I just wanted somebody to talk to and like, be with at the end of the day and not just be alone all the time.

Janae Thompson [01:55:38] Because I was feeling really heavy with those feelings of loneliness and mothering alone. And I was like, you know, I just, I need somebody I can connect with, and that doesn't mean I want to share my life with them. And that's where I'm at right now.

Janae Thompson [01:55:51] And I'm in charge of, like, when I decide I get to have that also sexual relationship with this person. And it doesn't mean that we have to start sharing our bank accounts and I have to commit to them. And like, we can, as adults decide this together and engage in this experience. And wow.

Janae Thompson [01:56:11] I feel like I actually have the ability to be a grown up, like, I'm not being told anymore and I can talk about this with my partner and we can decide together what we both want and need. And like, that concept was just like, no. You get married and have sex to have babies, and it's like, no, now you're an adult, you get to decide what you want for the needs that you have, and you get to decide how they're met. And it was just amazing, so empowering. And it's like, you don't have to get married before you can have this need met.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:48] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [01:56:49] Because in the space I was in, life was hard. And to just have like that respite where I could go talk to somebody, be with them, choose to be intimate. It was like, wow. And you know, we had an agreement around it. It's not like I was just like going to a bar and trying to pick somebody up. Cause that wasn't what I wanted. And I got to make the choice and I got to make the decision when, where, why not? Because you did this, now you have permission.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:18] Yeah. I'm seeing in there too, that a deeper which is around needs, which I think as Mormon women, oftentimes we are disconnected or maybe a little, I don't know, shamed when we have personal needs, I think. But what I love about what you just described is this really Acknowledging needs within yourself, vocalizing needs, and then showing up in your life in a way that you are actually meeting your needs?

Janae Thompson [01:57:53] Yeah, and it's this practice of like feeling into what do I need, what do I want? And how do I get that in a way that supports me as a person versus you know, kind of like degrades me as a person. And even sex within marriage can be a degrading experience. Experience. And it's like if you just have this blanket belief that sex in marriage is good, sex outside of marriage is bad. You can have a lot of degrading experiences within marriage and miss out on a lot of enriching experiences outside of what that container is as the only way to do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:31] It's a great point.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] So are there lessons you learned about. About how to stay safe or what hasn't worked or things you wouldn't recommend trying that didn't work out so well for you? Any, any sort of like high level tips?

Janae Thompson [01:58:53] Yeah, I mean it's such a sensitive subject because with sexuality there's this need for you to be able to hyper communicate what it is that you need to share to engage in an experience like that with a partner that you're not married to. Because in my marriage it was always safe. There was never a need for this like deep conversation around like past safety, health issues, all these things that are hard to talk about. It's just like, are you in the mood? No. Are you in the mood? Yeah. Do you think you could be in the mood? Yeah. Okay. I mean that like, that can be as deep as it can go when you're in a marriage.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:31] You know, it's funny. Green light, red light. Are we talking to yellow? Yeah. Could it change in the next where you're at?

Janae Thompson [01:59:39] Yeah, it's just like you kind of just know each other well enough and that can also like there's beautiful things that play into your sexuality and that kind of an experience. And then there's also things that are like, eh, it's more just kind of like not as exciting as you didn't know it could be, you know, because you're in this routine.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:00] So.

Janae Thompson [02:00:01] So, you know, the first time that I was with somebody that I really wanted to be with outside of the guilt and the shame and all that, it was such an eye opening experience for me because I'd never experienced expressing sexuality in a back and forth way that was so like satisfying and expressive and it was totally different from what I experienced inside of my marriage. And I just didn't know there was A lot of differences around that. And so back to the safety question is, it's like, for me, I need to be in this space of I know what I want, I'm choosing it, and we are able to have a conversation.

Janae Thompson [02:00:37] And there have been times when that was not my standard and I kind of betrayed myself in a way, and that's when I felt that was an experience that was kind of degrading, and I don't want to repeat that. And it feels like I didn't do what was the best thing for myself. And. And so, like, the safety part is emotional safety, physical safety, all of those things.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:01] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:01:02] But when I feel like I don't know, but I'll just try it, there's two things that are going through my head. I'm experimenting, but I'm also, if I'm not sure, that's usually when I make the mistakes that are hurtful emotionally or, you know, whatever. And, you know, when you're in a space where it's like, this is no bad, never. You can't ever talk about sex. And then you go into this space where it's like, actually, I'm gonna try these things. I felt like I was ill equipped to be, like, in that space and really know how to engage it. And I wish I could have just, like, had more open, frank conversations with people who had had sex with more than one person in their life, and that was okay.

John Dehlin [02:01:45] So you list in your outline hard lessons about safe sex. Is there any tip you want to give anyone about that or just leave it there?

Janae Thompson [02:01:52] Yeah, just. Just those same things that, like, it's when you betray yourself that you find yourself in, you know, those situations and. And, you know, like, considering birth control and using condoms and all those things. Because after I. After my husband died, I took my IUD out and I was like, well, I'm never going to have sex again, you know, And. And then the first time I did, I was like, oh, my gosh, what if I could get pregnant? I've never really used a condom. And so, like, what if something happened and I got pregnant and I was like, oh, my gosh, I would not want to have a baby as a single mom.

Janae Thompson [02:02:22] Like, it's just very. It was very stressful. And so, like, just taking the precautions of whatever it is that you need to feel safe. It's so important that you advocate for yourself always. Just, you know, and I think that's a process to learn how to advocate for yourself. And when it comes to sexuality, like, not letting somebody else's Desire. Overtake what it is that you feel is right for yourself.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:50] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:02:52] One of the most interesting. This is kind of a side note, but it's. We'll come right back. So I did A Study of LGBTQ Mormons and Ex Mormons, 1612. I tried to find the single moment most. The. The biggest single decision they could make that would lead to the highest quality of life. And I picked everything. Getting married, like, you know, successful work, like, pick your variable income, kids, friends,

Janae Thompson [02:03:25] activities, all that kind of stuff. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] The number one most important thing they could do that would have the biggest impact on their positive quality of life was being sexually active. And that was shocking to me, especially because as a Mormon, you're taught wickedness never was happiness.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] Any sex outside of marriage is wickedness. And yet that's the single most important thing they can do. Now, if you talk to, like, Russell Nelson's wife, Wendy, whatever her name is, or. Or the woman who runs Deseret Book, what's her name, Sherry D. Do, they're just like, oh, well, that's just, you know, that's part of the deal. If you. If you're not able to get married, you live your whole life as a celibate, you die, but then you get the afterlife. So just be celibate. And that's the same thing they tell LGBTQ Mormons that don't get into mixed orientation marriages, which is also disaster. They're like, just be celibate and, yeah, it'll be hard, but.

Janae Thompson [02:04:24] And that's what I was supposed to do if I didn't remarry. Marry.

John Dehlin [02:04:28] Yeah. And I guess my question is, can you talk about, like, you're not LGBT as far as I know. So I don't know if you can relate to them checking that box for it being the most important thing, but can you relate? Like, very few of us have tried celibacy once we've been married. Right.

Janae Thompson [02:04:50] Right.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] And most of the men, the church leaders who tell everyone else to be celibate, if they're not married, they're not. There's no freaking way they'd last a year at the. The most. Right. That's why so many of those dudes get married so quickly.

Janae Thompson [02:05:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:03] Because they. They can't live without sex. So talk about. Can you talk about why sexual activity is so important to mental health and physical health and emotional health as an adult?

Margi Dehlin [02:05:19] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:05:20] So, I mean, and this is where, like, when you're with a partner, it's so much easier to have, like, that the safety and and all the elements that make it so. Sexual activity is a really uplifting experience. And then outside of that, it's just there's so many more variables, right?

Janae Thompson [02:05:40] And when you find yourself outside of it, it's still a physical, mental, emotional need that you have. And so this is like, a really intense question that I struggled with for a long time. And, you know, I found. Found that I don't want to go out and just find a partner for sexual health, but I also can't go more than, you know, like, for me, the certain number is around six months. If I don't have a partner for six months, I start feeling like, oh, my gosh, I just have got to have a connection.

Janae Thompson [02:06:10] And I think masturbation is a healthy thing as well. But that leaves the human element of connection out of that. And so if you have a partner and you can't meet each other's needs in the moments that you need it, I think that's a great way to supplement a healthy sexual life.

Janae Thompson [02:06:27] I don't think it's a good way to maintain a sexual life. And so. So I kind of just look at, you know, like, where am I at in life? Where. Where are the needs of my body? Where are, like, the potential for relationships that I have? And, you know, it's one of those things where I'm super aware of where I'm at. And. And I kind of. I mean, I've kind of built, like, a support system. It's. It's not like the. This, like, you know, I don't know, like, sexual dichotomy of, like, oh, if I, you know, need to go have sex, I just call this person.

Janae Thompson [02:07:03] It's not like that at all. But it's like, I'm in this space and, you know, like, I'm dating this guy and. And I feel like, you know, we could have that in our relationship. And it feels good and I'll engage.

Janae Thompson [02:07:14] And if I'm not dating anybody and I have no prospects and, you know, like, I'm. I'm not wanting to engage in the dating aspect, then I just keep waiting. But physically, physically, you know, it's on my mind and becomes more of a priority in, you know, a relationship as something sooner rather than later. And so that's why it's like, it's really important to keep this balance for yourself and. And really, like, be aware of your sexual needs. Because if you can do that, then you can navigate the whole relationship and intimacy with yourself, with other people in a safe way. When you don't have a partner.

Janae Thompson [02:07:49] So that's what I would say is just being really, really clear on where you're at sexually. Because denying yourself and denying yourself and denying yourself is not healthy. And it's like, I feel like it's a contribution to a depressive state.

Janae Thompson [02:08:07] And, you know, I know for me, like, if it's been a really long time and I'm feeling down and I'm feeling low and I, like, start dating someone and I'm excited about him, and, you know, like, we. We have, you know, our first time together, it's like, oh, you know, like, this is so great. I feel so much better. And at the same time, it's heavy because, you know, I haven't made a decision that, well, I want to date this person. And I haven't dated a lot of people since my husband died, and I haven't been with a lot of people since my husband died.

Janae Thompson [02:08:34] And I don't want to make it sound like, you know, there's this, like, intense. Like, it's like this whole sexual game. And there is, like, in the dating world, it's so. It's so wide open. There's so many doors you can go through as far as what you want to experience. And. And, you know, I had no idea this world even existed before. And so I think that where you're just really clear with yourself, what your needs are, how best to have your needs met and how to do that in a safe way, and then, like, how does that engage with the rest of your life goals?

Janae Thompson [02:09:06] You know, like, eventually I. I do want to get married, but I don't want to just get married to anybody. And so, you know, I plan on being single until I, you know, find a person that just fits into my life beautifully, that I just can love unconditionally. And, you know, like, our energies mesh, and I feel the level of happiness that I did when I was married to Grant and more.

Janae Thompson [02:09:27] And so until I find that, you know, I'm going to be really happy as a single person, and that's not what I want for my whole life. And, you know, like, I still have to balance everything else in my life with, you know, raising kids, running a business, and, you know, exploring sexuality and dating and all that. And so it's a lot to pass balance, but it's also really important for balance.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:49] Yeah. Yeah. I was curious if you have any. You kind of mentioned your morning coffee a little bit this way, but if you have any practices that have emerged out of this place of rebuilding that are either Comforting to you or,

Janae Thompson [02:10:10] you

Margi Dehlin [02:10:10] know, have exposed you to new ideas. It could be, you know, listening to podcasts or, you know, just whatever. Any practices right now that fill you up, inspire you, connect you to yourself, whatever.

Janae Thompson [02:10:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, I definitely did not listen to podcasts before I started Mormon Stories podcast. So that was the first podcast that got me onto podcasts. And I was like, wow, these are really amazing. And actually, this is funny. So after my husband died, I just, like, wrapped myself in minky blankets every night. That was, like, the only way I could fall asleep.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] Soothing. Nurturing.

Janae Thompson [02:10:49] Yes, just soothing and nurturing. And I just felt like. I just felt wrapped in, like, this safety so I could actually relax, and that's how I could go to sleep. And then when I kind of engaged in this, like, questioning the faith and letting that go, it was. It was like to feel safe, I needed to have information that supported where I was at. And I told John, I was like, you know, I've gone to sleep hearing your voice for, like, probably a year now, and I almost can't sleep without hearing it. Not in a weird, creepy way. But the reason that was so comforting is cause I'd be in my blanket, I would be hearing information that supported where I was at, and that put me in a space where I could be safe and feel like I could fall asleep, you know?

Janae Thompson [02:11:31] And so now, you know, like, when I'm getting ready for bed, I'm all excited, like, well, what podcast am I going to listen to tonight while I'm going to bed? And, you know, sometimes it's Mormon stories, sometimes it's something else, but it's like, you know, this is a routine, and I'm like, oh, gosh, you know, if I get married again and I'm sleeping with someone in a bed, like, how am I going to, like, navigate listening to my podcast if I have a partner? You know?

Janae Thompson [02:11:53] So, I mean, you make these routines, and I feel like that create safety and allow you to go into that space where you feel really good and safe and. And, you know, for me, like, information is a lever of safety that the more I know, the more I can understand how I feel about things and why I'm doing things and make different decisions and make better decisions. And so, you know, listening to the podcasts that support where I'm going or, you know, where I need support or what I want to learn or just things that I'm interested in, it feels like this really empowering, safe space to be able to.

Janae Thompson [02:12:28] To learn. So podcasting and going to bed with a podcast and. And then. Yeah, and then. And coffee and I got a really nice hot tub in my backyard, and I'll just go in there at night and look at the stars, you know, usually by myself after my kids have gone to sleep, and.

Janae Thompson [02:12:44] And that's really fulfilling. And also for that first year when I kind of just like, didn't even know what to do about dating or anything, and, like, I didn't even dare to go out into the world of sexuality, I would get massages regularly, and I felt that helped a ton of. Just to keep my body, like, nurtured and touched and not having any responsibility for it. And I mean, as far as, like, you know, like, I'm paying for a massage. That's what I get. And there's nothing else outside of that. So it's a professional relationship. And that was a really beautiful. Like, that helped a lot.

Janae Thompson [02:13:16] And that's also another way to really, like, nurture my body when I, you know, just need more physical nurturing is go get a massage.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:24] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Janae Thompson [02:13:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:29] I was curious if you wanted to. You've spoken a lot about grief, honestly, in the podcast so far, but is there. You know, I was thinking about you. Oftentimes when people, you know, have a faith transition, there's so much grief. There's so much to sort of just on its own own to navigate and to kind of. Yeah. Work through. But you. You had that with the layering of, you know, the loss of Grant, which then you have kind of layers upon layers, I would imagine, of grief.

Janae Thompson [02:14:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:08] You know, for people who are in a place of grief and overwhelm right now, whether that be. Be from a transition in life, it could be a faith transition or, you know, another. Or loss of any sort. How would you talk about what you've learned about grief and the process of grief and navigating it.

Janae Thompson [02:14:35] Yeah, that's such a good and deep question, because we all have different levels of grief in different ways. And I think, think the most nurturing thing that I've learned from the whole process is to be able to allow being in the grief and not fighting it, not feeling like I should be doing something else, just really acknowledging the way that I feel and feeling the way that I feel. I think there's these ideas sometimes where it's like, you know, you're in charge of your feelings and you control your feelings and control. And even many times I've said to my kids, well, you're in charge of your feelings, and that that's true to a degree.

Janae Thompson [02:15:17] But I feel sad because my husband died. I'm not in charge of that feeling. And that. That's something that's. I'm experiencing because of what happened. I'm not in charge of deciding if I feel sad or not. And, you know, sometimes even, like, when my kids do stuff that just really, like, trigger me, I'm like, I feel really angry. I didn't choose the anger. It came up because of this experience. And so it's not about controlling your emotions. It's about acknowledging them and, like, letting them be real. Like, I feel so sad that my husband died. I don't want to get up off the couch, and so I just don't, and it's okay.

Janae Thompson [02:15:55] And I can sit there as long as I need to or, you know, like. And that can be with anything. Like, if you're. If an. If a pet dies or, you know, like, I just feel really sad that my cat died and I don't want to do anything. So that's how you're feeling. Like, that's okay feeling that way and feel that way as long as you need to. And, you know, the reality is you're not going to sit on the couch for the rest of your life. That's just not going to happen. But if you say, I can't sit on my couch, or it was just a cat or it was just a husband, you know, like, that's just minimizing the reality of what you feel and what happened.

Janae Thompson [02:16:26] And that is the best way to prolong it in a way that it never goes away. And so, you know, the greatest thing I've learned is to just let things be as they are and sit in it rather than trying to control it and change it.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:41] Yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:16:42] Because it will change on its own, and I don't have to be the one to do that, but I do get to choose how I want to feel. Like, I feel really sad right now, and I want to feel happy. That doesn't mean I'm going to feel happy, but I get to choose what I want to feel by acknowledging how I do feel, because that's how I can get to how I want to feel.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:59] Yeah, that's beautiful. Okay, I think just my last. My last question for you would be around. You know, I think we all. If we're breathing, we live with vulnerability. You know, I think you have. Have lived a reality of that vulnerability in a way that many of us maybe won't. We'll have our own, but we won't have that, you know, kind of what surprises you about where you are right now? Is there anything that feels kind of surprising if someone had laid out, here's what's going to kind of happen, or here's what, like, is there anything that surprises you about this process or being you in this moment that you might not have guessed?

Janae Thompson [02:17:50] Yeah, it's such a great question. I think what surprises me that the most, and this is not because I've ever felt like I'm incapable or anything like that, but how strong I am and how capable I am and how smart I am and how able I am to meet the demands of what this challenge has brought into my life.

Janae Thompson [02:18:12] I never in a million years would have looked at the days that I live now, 10 years ago and thought, I can't. There's no way I could maintain a schedule like that. There's no way I could be able to do all the things that person's doing, know what they know. Like, that's no way. Like, there's. That's impossible for me to be that person.

Janae Thompson [02:18:32] And I think we kind of all look at each other that way, too. Like, when we look at someone's accomplishments, and it's like, wow, that person has done so much. I could never do that. But. But that's not the case. And, like, when you're handed a challenge and you pick it up and say, okay, I'll take it, you figure out a way to meet the change. And that's what's powerful about human nature, is that, you know, people will come up to me and be like, oh, man, I don't know how you do it. I have two kids and a wife, and I, like, I can barely keep up with them.

Janae Thompson [02:19:00] And I'm like, it's not about a comparison. It's not that yours is less than mine. It's just, this is what I have, so this is what I do. And if you had what I had you do what I do, and I'm just really impressed with myself as far as, like, I can do this, like, and I'm doing it really well, and I don't do everything right and perfect, but I'm doing a really good job, and I'm proud of myself for that.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:19:31] Well, that's a pretty powerful way to kind of approach the end.

Janae Thompson [02:19:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:38] Your outline talks a little bit about how you view the church now, how you. How you view prophets and truth claims and.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:46] And

John Dehlin [02:19:49] claims of authority. Do you want to just kind of share some thoughts on kind of how you're viewing all that Now, Yeah, I

Janae Thompson [02:19:58] think the foremost authority in my life is me, and I have the authority over everything. And I love that freedom that I have. Like, there's nobody in my life that knows me better or knows what's better for me than me. And to feel that way again, it just goes back to, I don't need anybody else to tell me what to do or how to do it. And, you know, and as far as, you know, the organization goes, like, I used to look at that as, like, whatever the prophet says, that's what we should be doing. And now I'm, you know, I, I'll go back and I'll listen to, you know, conference talks sometimes or somebody sends me something, oh, I just thought of you, and I wanted you to listen to this, and I'll listen to it.

Janae Thompson [02:20:38] And I'm like, yeah, there's no authority in there that tells me what they're saying is true. For me, some of the thoughts that they share are nice, and that's great. And, you know, I can see these other things that as a believer, I would have put stock into every single word they said.

Janae Thompson [02:20:54] And now I see how things that they're saying would not serve me, and I get to make that choice now. And so, you know, as far as the organization, I look at it as, you know, it's a great commercial organization that brings in a lot of money and, you know, has community groups that get together all the time and, you know, is structured out as if there's hierarchy within it and there's a president, but certainly not a prophet. That the definition of what I thought a prophet was, that sees the future and tells you everything that's in your highest and best good. That's what I would think a prophet would do.

Janae Thompson [02:21:30] That's not what this organization is. It's an organization that has some really good community aspects to it and, and teaches some good things. And, you know, people get together and it's the president of a corporation that runs it.

John Dehlin [02:21:48] And so maybe just to end, if people were to say wickedness never was happiness, you can't be happy and leave the church, and you can't be a healthy, happy, moral person or a good mother without the Mormon Church in your life. And there's no way you can leave the church and feel happier and healthier, what would be your truth?

Janae Thompson [02:22:11] Yeah, so my truth is I'm a far better mother than I ever have been in my whole life with the freedom that I have to know that I'm the authority for my kids. As far as, like, I know it's good for them, and I know it's good for me. And I have the courage and authority to apply those things versus, like, well, let me go check what the church teaches. Let me go see what my husband teaches. Let me. Me go see. You know, it's just, like, I know what I need to do, and I will implement that. And if I don't, I'll find a way to figure it out where I feel connected to what it is that I'm learning, not just because someone told me. And then, let's see.

John Dehlin [02:22:50] You feel like you're a better mother.

Janae Thompson [02:22:51] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Better mother. And I have never. I got lost in where we were in the question. I've never felt happier in my life because of the freedom that I feel. I feel so much less in bondage. Before, I felt like I was in this bondage. Like, I just. I was tied down. I couldn't be free. And I just. It just felt like I was in a prison, and I feel like I'm free now. And there's no comparison with how happy that feeling brings into my life, with that level of freedom and happiness versus feeling like I'm in bondage and I'm in a prison. And I'm just trying to figure out how to get out of it in the right way.

John Dehlin [02:23:35] And what if a believing woman would struggle to believe you and say, well, it must be counterfeit happiness or the adversary, because you can't be truly happy without the church?

Janae Thompson [02:23:46] Yeah. I mean, true happiness is what I experience, and I know a lot of sorrow and I know a lot of, like, true conflict that came when I was living in the church, like, living all the gospel. And I don't know that conflict for me. And it wasn't because, like, do I follow this or do I not? It's just there's so much pressing on me because of what's imposed by saying, here's the process to be worthy and get back to Christ, whereas I am the process, and I am worthy, and I'm already with Christ in that sense, and I don't need a building and an organization and to validate that. And so what I feel now I experience is genuine, true happiness, unlike anything I ever felt in the church. And I could never go back to that.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:39] Can I get an amen?

Janae Thompson [02:24:40] Amen.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:42] That's the way to end it. Hallelujah. Praise.

Janae Thompson [02:24:45] Praise the Lord.

Reflections and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:24:47] All right, well, Janae Thompson, it's been an amazing five and a half, six hours. We really appreciate your vulnerability, your wisdom, your generosity. And you just taking all this time to share your story with us. But more importantly, there's going to be people who needed to hear this. Whether they've lost a spouse or they're single or they've left the church or they're just a woman. Woman or a man, whatever. I know this is going to help so many people.

Janae Thompson [02:25:18] So thank you. Thank you for having me. And thanks for sharing this space and this mission. I appreciate it all.

John Dehlin [02:25:25] And The. The. The YouTube channel is the king of random TKOR. 12 million subscribers and growing.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:34] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:25:35] And the blog is. Follow theenergyoftheday.com Yep.

Janae Thompson [02:25:39] Any other plugs you can follow me on Instagram? That one is Janae Valate.

John Dehlin [02:25:46] Will you spell that really quick?

Janae Thompson [02:25:47] Yeah. Janae. J, A, N, A, E. And then V, I, L, A, T, E. And I'll typically put links to my blog on that.

John Dehlin [02:25:54] And J, A, N, A, E, V,

Janae Thompson [02:25:57] A, L, V, I, L, A, T. Okay. And so at.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Janae. Okay, okay, okay. So follow you on Instagram. Instagram. And just stay in touch.

Janae Thompson [02:26:09] Yeah, yeah, you can find me in any of those places. And, you know, I love to connect with people that just really want to, like, find the best. The best versions of themselves, because that's what I feel like I'm doing is finding the best version of myself and really amazing people along the way.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:29] Thank you, Janae. Yeah.

Janae Thompson [02:26:31] Thank you, guys.

John Dehlin [02:26:32] Yeah. All right. And Margi, thanks for joining us, joining me and joining us today. So good to have you.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:38] I'm so happy I was here.

John Dehlin [02:26:42] And thanks to all you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We appreciate your support. You can go to mormonstories.org if you want to support this podcast and to help keep it going, we rely on your donations to do all that we do. So please donate and support us if you can. Please subscribe to us on YouTube, follow us on Facebook, on TikTok, on Instagram. That helps with the algorithms. Comment, spread the word. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com if you have ideas or questions or suggestions. And most importantly, just be good to each other and be kind to each other and find your bliss, find your joy, wherever that is. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you all again, hopefully very soon on Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.