Introduction and Guest Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 29, 2024, and today we're going to be covering a really, really important topic. Have you ever heard of the term PIMO within a Mormon or ex Mormon context? PIMO stands for physically in, mentally out. It's another way of saying staying active as a Mormon, as a Latter Day Saint, attending church, as a non believer, or, or as someone who doesn't sort of buy some or all of the Mormon Church's truth claims. We're going to be covering that today, we're going to be covering it in future episodes as well because we are super interested to check in with attending faithful Mormons who don't have faith. And that's what. Or at least all the faith. And so today we're super excited to have Shannon Lamb. Hey, Shannon.

Shannon Lamb [00:00:52] Hey, how's it going?

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Thanks for joining us.

Shannon Lamb [00:00:54] I'm so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Now if I'm. We're going to be, we're going to be having our panel of Relief Society presidents and if, if I'm right, you applied for that panel.

Shannon Lamb [00:01:05] I did.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] And we were so interested in your story, we kind of cherry picked you to do your own episode. Is that right?

Shannon Lamb [00:01:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Years ago I was the re Society president.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] Yeah. So this is another former Mormon Relief Society president which is like a leader of the women in a congregation. And we're just thrilled to have you. So thank you for coming.

Shannon Lamb [00:01:23] Yeah, so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] We will also be talking about faith deconstruction and about divorce and reconstruction. Those are some other sub themes, but the main theme is how do you stay in the Mormon Church as a non believer? And if that weren't enough, we also have my partner Margi here as co host. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:44] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Anything you want to say?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:46] Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] All right.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:47] Yeah. Excited.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] Okay. Well, Shannon, as you know, we always like to start with an intention or some intentions so that you can let our viewers and listeners know why you want to do this episode. To make sure they don't get the wrong idea of what you are and aren't trying to do. So why are you doing this interview?

Shannon Lamb [00:02:06] I kind of want to let people know that there is a space for them even if they don't believe in the church. Some all part a lot, a little, it doesn't matter. But they can stay if they want to and that they have the choice to stay. So basically I just want to advocate for big tent Mormonism that Everybody should be welcome. And that really, that's how we should be doing it in the church. Everybody should be welcome to come regardless of where they are at with belief.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] And that's, I mean, that's already so bold and almost controversial just because there's a lot to unpack there. So that's why today's interview is going to be fascinating. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:45] And I just want to note that this was one of the most requested types of interviews from a survey we kind of sent out at the end of last year, I believe. And so this is in direct response to you all, so we hope you enjoy.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] And if you are a PMO of physically and mentally out, non believing, actively attending Mormon and you believe your story could help people, just go to MormonStories.org, find the, find the homepage, find the little link that allows you to apply to become an interviewee. And we would love to interview you or at least to consider you for an interview. Cause we wanna do a few of these. So please go through the application process. The application process involves making a short little video and filling out a form. It's a new process and there are all these other future panels and topics that we want to cover.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] So go check that out and see if you have any interest in applying to, to be on an interview. And the Relief Society panel is coming very soon, so know that that's almost what we've scheduled it. We've got the people coming. It's going to be fantastic. So that's coming up and we've got several other panels we want to do. Return mission people who got, you know, came home early from their missions, you know, being single in the church, being divorced in the church, being never Mormon. I want to do a panel of people that have never been Mormon, but they're Mormon stories fans. And to have them talk as a panel about their experiences.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] And then all of these panels will also have individual interviews that we cherry pick as well. So please apply if you wanna come on the show. Okay, Shannon, without any further ado, where does your Mormon story begin?

Growing Up as a Valley Girl in the Church

Shannon Lamb [00:04:28] It begins in Southern California. I grew up as a Valley girl OG Valley girl. And life was good for me.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Is this Orange county or.

Shannon Lamb [00:04:41] No, San Fernando Valley.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] Okay. That's literally Valley girl stuff. Okay, you were kidding.

Shannon Lamb [00:04:46] I'm a legit Val and I had five siblings. We went to church every week. It was just a regular part of our lives. I didn't question it, I didn't think about it. And it worked for me because I like to follow the Rules and do the right things. And so we attended every week. We went to the activities. I can remember the big spaghetti dinners when you were still allowed to cook at church. Remember when you could do that?

John Dehlin [00:05:14] They can't cook at church now.

Shannon Lamb [00:05:15] You're not allowed to cook anything at church. I did not know that.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] When did they cancel cooking?

Shannon Lamb [00:05:19] I mean, like, you can bring in stuff and warm it up, but you're not. I don't know if they had fires or whatever, but like my dad back in, like, the 1980s, I mean, he would be there in the kitchen with a bunch of other guys, like, cooking up the stuff, and the women would bring the salads and do all the things. And it was such a great sense of, like, community.

Shannon Lamb [00:05:38] And this was early 80s in Southern California, and our ward was pretty thriving. And I thought everybody was great. My good friends were in the ward, so I had friends at school and other places. But the ward was really like, my sense of belonging and like, hey, this felt good and this was right. And I felt just like, contented and at home where I was at. And then as I got older, more the idea of, well, I was in the true church and this was where God wanted me to be and where this was the right thing. That came more like, in my teenage years.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] So was your family, like, obeying all the rules? The, you know, tea and coffee and alcohol and smoking and all that? Our movies and.

Shannon Lamb [00:06:23] Yeah, it's interesting because I was thinking about this and I'm like, we went every week and three hours on Sunday. Yeah, yeah. And I'm. Hey, I vaguely, vaguely remember when it was, like, separated and, you know, we went during the week, too, for.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] I'm guessing we're similar age. Like, 80s high school is in the 80s.

Shannon Lamb [00:06:40] Yeah. I think I'm a little younger, but, yeah, I'm grew up in the 80s and 90s. I graduated in 94.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] Okay. Okay.

Shannon Lamb [00:06:46] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:48] So

Shannon Lamb [00:06:50] for me it was like, yeah, there's no problems, there's no questions. All was good. And we did all the things. But my parents, I don't feel like we're super in our face about it. It was like, well, this is just what we do. I was talking to my friends who I grew up with in my ward there in Southern California, and we actually talked about, like, some of the biggest things from my parents was like, that my brothers, I had three older brothers, had to get their Eagle Scout.

Shannon Lamb [00:07:15] That was huge. And I do remember feeling like, like I wanted to go on the 50 milers and I wanted to do all the scout stuff. And I wanted to be involved. And I vaguely remember sensing like, why don't I get to do that stuff? Or why am I over here, you know, having to like, knit or like do a, you know, cooking class or, you know, like how to apply our makeup or things like that. I remember wanting to do the boy stuff and feeling vaguely that it was not fair that I couldn't do that. And I remember telling my dad, I want to go on the hike with you, and him just kind of laughing and brushing it off a little bit. But beyond that, it was like, well, this is what we do. And I didn't have a problem with it.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] Okay, did you do like the dances? Did they have an active ward and stake dance culture in Mormon, your version, San Fernando Valley?

Shannon Lamb [00:08:07] Yeah, they did. I loved the dances. I think by that time things were. It was weird. It was like in the 80s, things were really thriving in the 90s, people were like starting to move away. A lot of people from California were moving back to Utah. And so it was the. And it was getting really expensive in la, so people were moving out a bit. Things were starting to like die down a little bit. But I loved the dances. I would go any chance I could get. And I went to seminary. And my first year, ninth grade, I was like all pumped and excited about it.

Shannon Lamb [00:08:41] And by 10th grade I was just tired and didn't care. And so I stopped doing that for a little while. But I knew that I wanted to go to byu, so I knew I probably had to get back on track. And so I did all the at home studying stuff to like be able to make it, you know, and be a seminary graduate. But that was a thing that was like really challenging. And I would say kind of, I always thought was unfair was that here, those of us who were outside of Utah, you know, we had to get up really early in the morning.

Shannon Lamb [00:09:09] So here you are, this teenager that is not getting a lot of sleep anyway. And I had long curly hair at the time. So I was getting up like 4:45am to do my hair with the diffuser and get all this stuff done so I could look fabulous for school. And I just was not getting enough sleep at all. And that was like the first time where I'm like, why do we have to do this? It doesn't seem fair.

Shannon Lamb [00:09:34] I did not feel like I was learning much of anything. I was just so tired. You'd have kids that would come and just put their heads down and just sleep, literally sleep through the lesson. So that Was like the first thing where I was like, ah, I don't like this, or I don't think this is right. But I did it, you know, made up my. I probably missed like half a year, made that all up, and then ended up graduating because I knew I wanted to go to byu. So did you?

John Dehlin [00:10:00] You know, I just. I'm reading a book now called Alpha God and it actually rates religions or churches based on shame and specifically sexual shame. But I'm just asking you generally, did you get hit with any of that kind of worthiness stuff with bishops and all that in your high school years? And I only ask because that's so many people's Mormon experience. Was that yours or did you escape that?

Shannon Lamb [00:10:25] So I escaped it mostly because I wasn't dating anyone. So I escaped it. But unfortunately my very good friend in the war did not. And again, they were out visiting me in Virginia. And so we were just talking about this how my one friend who had boyfriends who was wanting to have a little fun and experiment with things, she ended up really getting shamed for her behavior as a normal teenager.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Just kind of basic sexual exploration kind of stuff.

Shannon Lamb [00:10:59] And I remember just kind of like sitting back and watching the whole thing and just being like, just really sad for her, you know, and just like, you know, why was she choosing this and that? It was. I felt bad that she couldn't make better choices and. Cause I just wanted the best for her. But it was interesting to watch it kind of from the sidelines be played out with the adults in our ward as well. And you know, I look back now and I'm like, you know what? Everybody was just trying to do the best they could, but definitely some of our youth leaders kind of did not have good responses to her.

Shannon Lamb [00:11:35] And I didn't know everything that she'd experienced at the time because, you know, it's kind of like, wow, we're not gonna talk about it. And she's gonna, you know, she's gonna, you know, hopefully get better and like, then we, you know, be back on the right track. And then, you know, so it was kind of all a little hush hush. But when I talked to her about it afterwards, it was just really sad. The lack of care and more judgment versus like, hey, where are you at with things? Or, you know, if there was any feeling of like, feeling like she had to do these things for her, you know, for her boyfriend or whatever, there.

Shannon Lamb [00:12:06] There was no exploration about what she was wanting to do and why. And was. Yeah. And was that even what she wanted to do or were there like self esteem issues? You know, just all these things where like somebody could approach this with a young, you know, a girl in her teens, trying to figure out life.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:12:26] With more empathy, sympathy and like, you know, a little bit of guidance. And not like, well, you did this thing wrong and so now you have to repent and do all these things. And. But again, it's hard because that generation, my parents generation, they were doing the best they knew how and it wasn't. They didn't know how to do very much. You know, there was no. There's not a lot of support for them to know how to navigate these issues. And you know, our church does, I feel a horrible job with sexuality and, and teaching us what's okay or not okay. Cause it's like nothing's okay until you get married and then everything's supposed to be okay. And there's just no, there's no space there to explore how we feel and have real like legitimate conversations that. Where nobody. There doesn't have to be shame. And I know she said there was

John Dehlin [00:13:17] a lot of shame and I'm relating to you because I for the most part escaped that. But the role that served for me, those types of people, was that it made me feel like I was a noble and great. I was kind of nephi. Did you kind of feel like you were Nephi?

Shannon Lamb [00:13:29] Yeah. And again, we talked about this and I'm like, I don't know that I had. I loved her. I love her so much. I don't think I had judgment for her. I think it was more sadness. But again, what does it do? It reinforces. Cause I was on the right track, John. Like I was doing the things right. I mean, minus seminary of course, which I was like, you know, but like it just reinforced because that did end up having challenges for her. So what did it reinforce to me that I was on the right path and I was on the path of happiness and you know, doing the right thing. And so it did definitely reinforce that, you know, happiness was found by keeping all the rules.

Mormon Conditioning During Childhood and Teens

Margi Dehlin [00:14:06] I have a question around your kind of childhood and teen years with regard to how you would describe the fit of conditioning. So the conditioning that the church kind of provides and what it really wants, role wise from girls and young women. Do you feel like it was a pretty natural fit for your personality, for your coping for the way you showed up? Mental meaning, kind of high achievement, kind of perfectionism. And if not, where did you show kind of the stress of it being too much? Does that make sense. So fit. And then if not fit, where did you show kind of the leaks of, like, this is. I'm appearing, that it's working, but I actually have a lot of stress to show up this way. Does that make sense?

Shannon Lamb [00:14:55] Yeah. It's interesting because it really fit me well. And part of that could be, like, I didn't have a boyfriend. I really had no desire to drink, and so I just was like, I was a check the box person. I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna do this, and then I'm gonna follow this path and do. And I. And I did feel like Mormonism was the path that would bring me happiness. And I don't know that I overtly. You know, all of this stuff is, like, way in the back of your head. You're not even aware that this is how you're thinking.

Shannon Lamb [00:15:27] But for me, I just. Other than the, hey, I can do this too. I'm a girl. So what. That was vaguely in there, but beyond that, I mean, Mormonism for me was like, this is the right path. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I feel like the deeper thing that was, like, ever present for me is that this is what will bring happiness.

Shannon Lamb [00:15:47] And so. And it did for me, right, like, because I didn't. I wasn't dating, so I wasn't, like, even having the temptations to do anything with boys at the time. And I didn't really care to drink. And I think the, like, the feeling of rightness as to where I was in life was enough for me to be like, yeah, I don't need to do these other things. I'm happy with where I am. And so there really wasn't stress. You know, it worked for me.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] Love it.

Shannon Lamb [00:16:15] Pretty easy.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] And really quickly, just to humanize you a bit, what were some of your interests in high school? Goals? Aspirations? Dreams?

Shannon Lamb [00:16:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Were there any that didn't fit in the Mormon mold that you had to kind of push away? Were there others? Or were your hopes and dreams perfectly conforming to the Mormon plan of salvation?

Shannon Lamb [00:16:32] Yeah, I think. Well, I do remember I did not like babysitting kids very much. And so I was like, oh, I got to have a lot of kids, and how's that going to work? But. But I loved musicals. I like singing, so I did that quite a bit.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Theater, musical theater. In high school.

Shannon Lamb [00:16:50] I did, like, this voice kind of, like singing and a few songs here and there of different theater. We would act out a little bit, but it wasn't I am no actress at all, so it was just more like singing. But I love Les Mis and Phantom of the Opera and Into the woods and all these ones that were coming out at the time. I did a little bit when I was younger in musicals, but so I did sing a lot and really enjoyed that.

Shannon Lamb [00:17:18] I liked hiking and I liked camping, so I would say I was still pretty feminine, but I was like, I'm gonna show that I am strong, and I like to do these things, too. That might be considered more, like, masculine.

Shannon Lamb [00:17:34] But I loved dancing. I loved going to the dances. And I. In high school, all my friends were Jewish, and they. Their parents were, like, super on the ball and helping them, like, be like, you need to do these extracurriculars, and you need to take this AP class and you need to do this. And my parents were, like, I was the fifth of six, so they were, like, probably, like, tired. And so I just kind of, like, followed what all my friends were doing in terms of, like, taking classes and figuring out what I needed to do to take the right classes and to get, you know, the AP courses and to take those AP classes.

Shannon Lamb [00:18:06] And so I just kind of, like, followed them along. And that helped me, like, because I did good. Like, I did pretty good in school. I mean, I wasn't, like, amazing, but I was in the, like, honors and things like that. And so.

Shannon Lamb [00:18:19] So I felt like I wasn't, like, a total perfectionist. I was like, I need to do good enough. Like, I need to get in a pretty high level, but I don't need to be the highest or the best or anything. I feel like that mostly served me well because I wasn't crazy about getting good grades. I. Everything was like, okay, my goal is I need to get good enough grades to get into byu. I need to do well enough on the AP exams. And so, um. So, yeah.

Education, Career, and Church Expectations

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Did you have instincts about education or career at the time that either the church gave you messages about or you just had ideas, or were you sort of thinking, I'm gonna only pursue education and. Or a career long enough to become a Mormon mom?

Shannon Lamb [00:19:00] Basically, Yeah. I. I didn't know. You know what I mean? And I've talked to my kids about this. It's like, who knows anything at 18? Like. Like, I need a. Like, I'm like, I have to say what I want to do as a career. Like, and so I knew I was very interested in psychology, so that was an easy, like, choice when I started at byu, and I think I was just like, well, let's see what comes of it. Like, let's see what happens at byu. I don't. I definitely wasn't like, I want to get married right away. Right away. I want to have kids right away.

Shannon Lamb [00:19:30] It was in the back of my mind that I didn't. I didn't think that I loved kids, so I was like, oh, how's that going to work? But, I mean, there was so much to experience and explore once I got to BYU that I was just happy, like, meeting new people. And I was, like, really interested in the classes that I was taking. And it was just such a shift in what I was experiencing in la. It was. I was surrounded by Mormons, and so I was like, oh, my gosh, this is great. And, you know, thinking that I was going to, like, get deeper into the doctrine and better understand it.

Shannon Lamb [00:20:03] And so I think I was just open to whatever was gonna happen while I was there. So I didn't have a set, like, I have to be married by this amount of time. I was like, maybe I'll get my first boyfriend finally, you know. But beyond that, I didn't have any real set expectations.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:17] I love that. Cause it's actually what you would hope for your children to feel, ideally, if they go to college, which is just a sense of possibility and expansiveness as opposed to. It sounds like that's what you kind of felt.

Shannon Lamb [00:20:30] In part, yeah. And I will say, just to backtrack a little bit to my young women's leaders. They were all, actually, for me, pretty great. I didn't feel like pigeonholed into anything too much. I didn't have, like the chewed gum, like, lesson. So I feel like overall, while there still was that messaging that because I was a woman I couldn't do certain things, it still was like, yeah, go to BYU and you'll probably get married. But, yeah, give it a good shot, you know. And I did not feel that I was constrained or told that I couldn't do anything. And again, for like, the early 90s, you know, it wasn't half bad. And I know it wasn't everybody's experience in the church, so love it.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] So it sounds like you were on the Mormon train and you were enjoying it.

Shannon Lamb [00:21:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] So you went to byu. Where does your story go from there?

Shannon Lamb [00:21:21] So at byu, I decided to major in psychology. I just really liked. I just always liked that area, that field. And for whatever reason, I decided that I wanted to get done with college quickly. So I went to school year round, and that just worked for me. I took Off. I did study abroad in London for a little bit, and that was really fun. And then I still wasn't dating anyone. And so here I was, like, coming up on year three, and I'm like, well, if I don't find anyone, I guess I'll go on a mission. And didn't find anyone. So I was like, all right, I guess I'm going to put my papers in and go on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Okay. So BYU is famously kind of that. I ended up calling it a meat market. By the time I was done, it was like, school's important, but dating is the most important. And it's just famous for its dating culture, so I just have to check in. Was that hard for you to be a junior and to have all this crazy dating culture around you and you weren't finding the dates that you maybe went there to have?

Shannon Lamb [00:22:31] Yeah, it's weird. I'm like, I haven't thought about that in a long time.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:22:36] Yeah. So I'm picky. I'm just picky. So it's not even like I was like, oh, I'd want to date all these people. But I. Yeah, I mean, I didn't date as much as I would have liked, really, because I didn't really date at all. And. But I guess I was still having fun. I don't know. Like, I had a lot of guy friends. I'd always had a lot of guy friends, so I still had a lot of guy friends, was hanging out with guys, and I guess it was okay because it was like, you know, I didn't like that many guys, and so it was like, okay, well, here I am. So I.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] It's not a problem. It's not a problem.

Shannon Lamb [00:23:09] Yeah. But I do remember it was probably after my freshman year because I'm, like, such a planner that I was like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm like, I'm gonna do study abroad. I'm gonna graduate in this amount of time. And I'm like. And, yeah, it was like when I was 19, where I was like, well, and if I am not married by then, I will go ahead and go on a mission. And so, again, it was just like, I'll do this, this, and this, and then if that doesn't happen, I'll do this. And I think for me, just planning and having, like, a path was what has kind of just always brought me comfort, you know?

John Dehlin [00:23:42] So what'd you do?

Shannon Lamb [00:23:45] So I guess it was my junior, but senior year, I was like, okay, don't have anybody. So I'm Going to, you know, apply, you know, put in my application for the mission and I got called to Honduras and I was like, I remember opening up my. My letter and being like, where is Honduras? Like, didn't even know where it was.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] The same for me with Guatemala. I'm like, wait, isn't that. Is that near Mexico?

Shannon Lamb [00:24:13] Where is it?

Margi Dehlin [00:24:14] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:24:14] I was like, I don't. And the funny thing is I had walked up, I wanted to be all by myself to open the. In my calling. And I was up sitting at the temple and I open it and I read it and I'm like, huh, I don't know where that is. And I don't have a phone. You know, there's no phones at the time. So I'm like. So I trudge all the way back down to my, like, apartment and I tell my. My roommates and they're like, oh. And, you know, like, nobody knew where it was. And so, you know, you're having to look it up on them, like, somebody give me a map, you know, and, like, look it up and see where it was.

Shannon Lamb [00:24:42] And. And that was exciting for me because I think, you know, I guess I could say I'm like, somewhat of a high achiever. Like, stateside was not going to be okay for me, you know, And I say that it probably would have been fine if I had gone stateside, but, you know, I had made it very clear that I would go overseas and, like, wanted to learn a language. And so I was definitely happy with that calling. It felt like my brothers had served Spanish speaking. And it felt like, okay, this is, you know, I got a cool calling, so.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] Yeah, I relate to that. So how was your mission?

Mission to Honduras

Shannon Lamb [00:25:18] It still, to this day is one of the hardest things I ever did. I was. So I got to my first area and my companion did not speak any English, and that was really hard. She was lovely, but I. And then I'm. You're plopped into this third world country where. And I was like, pushed, like shipped way out to like, the country, like in the middle of nowhere. And I remember sitting on this bus, which was an old US school bus that's like bopping along. Yeah. And the music's like going so loud and like. And I'm looking at. Just out the window and there's people literally living in shacks. Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] And I'm just digging through trash piles.

Shannon Lamb [00:26:03] Yeah, yeah. We would pass rivers where people were bathing in. And there was trash all along.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Washing clothes and the river and on rocks with a thing of soap.

Shannon Lamb [00:26:12] Yeah. And it Was just like, you know, you're just like, wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:16] Not prepared.

Shannon Lamb [00:26:17] Yeah, yeah, Just. Just total shock, you know, and going. And just also like, okay, what am I. What am I doing here? What am I doing here? What have I gotten myself into? But to backtrack. I loved the mtc. It just, again, I think it's that sense of, like, all was right with the world. We were going to, like, go out there and tell people about the gospel, which was like, our joy and happiness and for never Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:26:46] MTC stands for Missionary Training Center. It's usually in Provo, depending on where you get called. But just imagine thousands of missionaries studying their languages and all getting excited about going to their country or state to serve their missions. Yeah, it's like a pre college, kind of post high school religious spiritual boot camp.

Shannon Lamb [00:27:08] Yeah, yeah, a spiritual boot camp. And then for those of us learning a language, you were trying to learn the language as well. And you. By the end of the. What was it? I think eight weeks there, I was like, oh, I got this.

Shannon Lamb [00:27:20] I'm going to speak Spanish like no other, you know, and then you get there and you're like, I don't understand what anybody's saying, you know, but what I will say is, in the mtc, I definitely felt the spirit, and that's something that we can talk about as things change with my belief system. But I definitely felt the joy and happiness of the desire to serve and help other people, however misguided it may have been, and felt that camaraderie with others who were going out to serve. And it was a wonderful experience for me. I know not everybody loves the mtc, but I, like, loved it to the end and was just super, super excited to be there and excited to get out to my country because I was like, rick, I love it here, but I can't wait to get to the country. And then you got to the country, you're like, oh, my gosh, like, what? Really? Like, what did I get myself into?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:12] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] I totally relate. Margi's got a quick thing.

Shannon Lamb [00:28:14] Oh, yes, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:15] So having not gone on a mission in the mtc, do they teach you about things that might be really useful to know about the culture that you're going to be going? Like, do they include the religion of the place and kind of the how people live and how many people are starving? Like, do they have a cultural component at all?

John Dehlin [00:28:40] I have an answer, but you go first.

Shannon Lamb [00:28:42] I mean, not in 1997, they didn't. I mean, it was like, yeah, here's the food. And. Well, and actually my teacher had served in Guatemala, so I didn't even have anybody that had been in Honduras. So it wasn't. And again, remember, like, Internet's just barely getting going, so it's not like you could look up and just find all these things. It was like what you found in your, like, encyclopedia that you pulled out and so.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] Such a good point.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my quick answer is, if you had an MTC teacher that went to the country you're going to serve in, they would tell you all about the culture just during side moments of your eight weeks of language instruction.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] But sometimes I'd be going to Guatemala and the teacher would have gone to Argentina or, or Uruguay or Paraguay or whatever, and then that wouldn't be so useful. But also someone used to make these little culture grams, which is like this little white sheet which you could open up and it would be like, the state bird is the quetzal and lots of beans and rice, and the predominant religion is Catholic, and it's about the size of Guatemala's, about the size of Tennessee and the population and, you know, and topography and there's beach and there's jungle and so you could. Those were the resources available. But again, this is pre Internet, so all that's irrelevant once the Internet.

Shannon Lamb [00:30:05] Well, and you know, the interesting thing about that to me is. Yeah, and I probably had some basics like that. But I mean, if you think about it, we were going there to change them. We didn't. We wanted to learn a little bit about them. But like. And it's such a mindset, you know what I mean? Like, like, oh, what their religion is. Well, it doesn't really matter because I'm gonna change it to the true religion, you know what I mean? And so it is an interesting. It's just a mindset that we were. We'll learn a little bit about them, but we're going there to change their lives. You know, we're.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:36] The point where that goes.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] Well, it's cultural.

Shannon Lamb [00:30:38] The gospel is the point.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Cultural imperialism. Yeah, really, Like, I remember just anecdotally, like in my first month or two in Guatemala, there's a coup d' etat where literally we're walking down the street and tanks start rolling down the street, going to their equivalent of the White House to, like, take over the government with soldiers. And you're just like, where am I? What is this?

Shannon Lamb [00:31:03] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] But, you know, you don't learn that, like, in Latin America during the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s, there was like CIA interventions to overthrow governments and like, really nasty business, political social upheaval to fight communism. And as a missionary, you didn't have any of that. Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:31:22] Clueless system.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Any of that background. Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:31:24] But you knew better, right? You were gonna teach him. You as a 19 year old and me as a 21 year old. I was gonna teach him what life was really about.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:31] Yeah. Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:31:32] Even though our country had often destabilized their country eventually. Literally. Right.

Shannon Lamb [00:31:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] It's kind of bizarre. And that's when I first learned about the book, the Ugly American. I don't know if you ever heard about that book, but it's a book about America's involvement in destabilizing Latin America for its own commercial and military and geopolitical interests. It's a thing. Ugly American. Check it out. Okay, back to your story.

Shannon Lamb [00:31:57] Yeah, yeah. So I got there. Well, and also in the mtc, I should say this. I went on the mission because it was the next step, not because I actually believed the church was true.

John Dehlin [00:32:11] But you did believe the church is true, right?

Shannon Lamb [00:32:12] I mean, I don't know. I didn't know, but it was like, again, this was like the check the box, next step thing to do because I hadn't found anybody to marry, so I was just gonna go serve a mission. And I had had some little feelings of like, well, do I know this is true or is this. You know? But it's just kind of vague and so. So when I went into the mtc, I remember the first day, I was just like, oh, my gosh, what did I do? I don't know that this is true. I have to, like, teach this to people. And like, within.

Shannon Lamb [00:32:38] I can't remember. It was a few days after that where I'm like, I really have to pray to just know if this is true or not. And so I remember I was there, you know, I was on the bottom bunk and all my roommates or whatever had gone to sleep. And I prayed and prayed to know if the church was true. And I will say that I felt I got an answer. I felt that. And I felt like the spirit come upon me and like, for me. And I felt that I was getting the answer that the church is true, that this is the right thing for me to do and that I'm gonna be able to help people and that this is gonna be good for me, and it's just what I should be.

Shannon Lamb [00:33:14] Time it switched from, like, the first few days where I was just like, you know, like, what am I doing? Like, I'M gonna leave my friends and family for a year and a half to like, woo hoo. This is great. And feeling the spirit and just being really happy to be there. So it definitely was a, that was like my conversion really happened in the mtc and that conversion carried me for years and years.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] So that's amazing. I'm happy for you. You got that.

Shannon Lamb [00:33:44] So if I had not had that and had been on the mission, it would have been miserable. I mean, I'm so glad I was able to serve in Honduras. It taught this kind of slightly privileged, naive young woman about like what life is like in other parts of the world.

Shannon Lamb [00:34:04] It was just a hugely eye opening experience to poverty, to how hard life can be just to make it day by day. And then on the other end it was like eye opening to all the other kids serving around me. And I do say kids. I mean we were adults technically, but we didn't know what we were doing. I remember I had an earring up here because that was so popular at the time. And I got to my first area. I don't know how I got through the mtc, but my zone leader was like, you're gonna need to take that out. And so I had to take out my earring.

Shannon Lamb [00:34:36] I remember my first companion was. She'd been out longer and you know, I'm like, okay, we're supposed to get up at whatever six o' clock and she wasn't getting up then. So it was like all these things where I was like, wait, but the rules and this is what we should be doing. And, but then you kind of settle in and it's, you're, you know, you're out in this, you know, unusual country, learning these things and having unique experiences. But I mean it was scary too. I was held up at gunpoint, I was grabbed. Because your cat called all the time. It's just, I think it's, I think it's part of the culture.

Shannon Lamb [00:35:10] But like we were cat called all the time but. And then you're on the. I don't know if they had these in Guatemala, but the, these busitos that would just be these like, they were almost like minivans, kind of like small vans that would, where we would get around and they would just shove people in there. So you'd be like hanging off the side and who, you don't know who's around you and then all of a sudden someone's like grabbing you. And so it was very, I realized when I came back that I was very much in survival Mode, you know, I was. There was no running water in a lot of places, so I was like, with a bucket, like pouring water over my head for a shower.

Shannon Lamb [00:35:43] And there were no paved roads, and so it would just downpour. And we would wear sandals and we would just. You would walk through puddles that would just go up to your ankles. And there was no way to get around it because it was just.

Shannon Lamb [00:35:56] It was just, you know, nothing was paved and it would just. I mean, you had like five seconds. You could hear the rain starting across the other side of the, like, town or whatever. And you'd like, run for, like, cover, but just, you know, it was very tropical. I'm sure Guatemala was the same way. And so it was hard. It was very hard. But I loved it. Like, it was like, I love it, you know, and I was glad to be done. At the same time, I was like, that was dang, the hardest thing. And like I said. But to this day, that still is one of the hardest things I've done in my life.

Shannon Lamb [00:36:29] I miss my family so much. And again, this was back when you could only talk to your family twice a year. And you look back at that now and it's like, who had that idea? You know what I mean? Like, you're away from your family, you're in a new environment, but we're not gonna allow your family to support you and interact with you while you're there.

John Dehlin [00:36:54] Just Mother's Day and Christmas were the two times you could call.

Shannon Lamb [00:36:56] Yep, Mother's Day and Christmas. And I took advantage. Look, it was like three hour long conversation I had with my family, but, like, two of my brothers got married while I was gone. And so you didn't get to go home for it? Nope.

John Dehlin [00:37:07] So you missed the wedding of your siblings?

Shannon Lamb [00:37:09] Me too. Yeah. And they sent me pictures, they put them in the mail, and it would take, you know, weeks to get the mail. And I can remember I would just be sitting on my bed and I would look at those pictures over and over again. Like pictures from the wedding. I was so homesick. But, you know, it's like, for me, it was like failure was not an option. Like, I was not going home, I wasn't going back. And so, yeah, it was a hard experience.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] I'm just. Because I geek out a little bit. What was the average number of baptisms per month per companionship? If you had to guess, I don't

Shannon Lamb [00:37:42] know, because I was not. I did not have that many baptisms. And I'm like, how many did I have? I probably only had like 13 total, I want to say, in 18 months.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] So that's less than one a month. Yeah, okay.

Shannon Lamb [00:37:53] But then there was some. There were some elders who were like, going like gangbusters, you know, and like, one elder had like eight baptisms in a month, and that was, like, amazing. And so that was hard for me. I didn't think about it too, too much, but it was hard for me because we were, you know, baptizing the nine year old of the people who didn't even come to, you know, church anymore. You know, it was like we were trying to get the kids, the kids and the women were the ones you could, like, kind of connect with a little bit more. And so we had a few, like, cool experiences where it was like a change of heart for that person.

Shannon Lamb [00:38:29] But that was another thing that I had a hard time with, was the goals. They wanted us to set goals for, like, number of discussions and things like that. And I'm like, okay, I can. I have control somewhat over my number of discussions, but, like, goals for who's gonna get baptized. I'm like, why am I setting a goal that has something that's almost solely to do with somebody else's own agency? Like, I can't make them get baptized. And that was like. Like stressful for me because I'm like, I can control what I can control, but I cannot control these other people. And why are we even setting goals surrounding somebody's like, for agency.

Shannon Lamb [00:39:03] Agency and inner feelings. And, you know, it just. It felt very wrong to me. So I did try to just ignore that a little bit and focus on, like, trying to get, you know, as many charlas, you know, in as I could. And.

Shannon Lamb [00:39:17] But yeah, so that was. And then it also was just like, I'm like, man, these people here, they may have to work on Sunday just so they can put food on the table, and they're just barely scraping by. But I want them to give or, you know, I'm saying this is what God wants to get for you to give 10% that, no, don't work on Sunday to provide for your family. Instead, come to church. And for a lot of them, they didn't have cars. So I'm telling them that they need to come to church and not work. And they're barely, you know, being able to provide food and living in a shack and washing their clothes in the river.

Shannon Lamb [00:39:51] You know what I mean? And so it was just such a disconnect between my life and growing up and where the expectations of the church were fine. Yeah, Like, I can give 10%. I can do these things. And then you're asking these people who are just barely making it to do these things. And it just felt like, is this really what God wants for these people that are, you know, barely have enough food to eat? So.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] Wow. Okay. I don't know if you heard this, but my mission, some companionships, had 40amonth.

Shannon Lamb [00:40:24] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] So, I mean, I'm glad that that had been cleaned up a little bit

Shannon Lamb [00:40:28] by the time, you know, it wasn't that crazy. And it may have been. Honestly, it's like. I don't know if I've blocked it in my mind or whatever, but I'm like. But for me, in the end, it just. I just kind of felt like I'm like, you know what? I did the best I could. I probably could have done better. Cause it was such a. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, what am I even doing here? And this is such. So foreign to me. And trying to learn the language. Yeah. Like, my first few companions did not speak English at all, and that was really hard. So there was a lot of survival just for myself. And like I said, it was early on in my mission that we got held up at gunpoint and then just being catcalled and grabbed, like, it was rough, traumatizing.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] I think we downplay that.

Shannon Lamb [00:41:08] Yeah.

Marriage, Graduate School, and Starting a Family

John Dehlin [00:41:08] Okay. So did you go back to BYU after your mission?

Shannon Lamb [00:41:11] I did. So again, I had to have a plan. And so I was like, okay, I'm done with my mission. And, well, with psychology as an undergraduate, you can't do anything really with it anyway, so you needed to go on. And so I still remember my mom mailed me to Honduras. All of the, like, master's degree options at byu. And so I was, like, looking through there, and I'm like. I'm like, well, this one. All of them required a master's thesis, and I did not want to do

Margi Dehlin [00:41:41] a master's thesis fair. That's so fair. Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:41:43] I was like, no, no, thank you. I'll pass on that. Although I did want to get into. I was very interested in marriage and family therapy, so I did apply to that one. And I applied to the counseling and school psychology dual program that they had at the time. It was a new program. And so. And I loved that one because it was a little more intense because they were, like, combining counseling in school psychology, but it did not require a master's thesis. And so I'm like, that will work for me. And again, I remember thinking, like, figuring out my decision Based on if this would work well for me as a mom or when I become a mom, you know.

Shannon Lamb [00:42:22] So even though I had no prospects, I, at the time, didn't think I liked. Even liked interacting with children very much. I was like, well, will this work when I become a mom? And I think that was. I mean, I think for everybody, most women, this was like, you know, late 90s. What else were you taught? Like, that was the plan, you know, and so.

Shannon Lamb [00:42:42] But I think I felt excited that I was like, okay, here I am. I'm still. I didn't feel too old, but I. You know, when I got back to byu, I was like, okay, I gotta get on this. Cause I'm 23, so I'm old.

John Dehlin [00:42:55] Menace to society, as they say. So what'd you choose for grad school?

Shannon Lamb [00:42:59] So I didn't get into the Marriage and Family Therapy master's program, but I got into the counseling and school psychology one.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] And that's just to become, like a high school counselor that also does assessments, like IQ tests.

Shannon Lamb [00:43:13] Yeah, yeah. So you could be a school counselor or school psychologist or both. So I got accepted into that program. So I came back to byu, had applied to the program, started, you know, pretty quickly after I got back, moved back into a ward at the Riviera, you know, right across there from byu.

Shannon Lamb [00:43:34] Yeah, the Riv. And, you know, just kind of started living life and getting back into the swing of things. And I wouldn't say that I was like, oh, I gotta find a husband right away. But I definitely felt like, you know, I felt like I had bought a little more time. Cause I'm like, well, I'm back at byu getting my master's. So I have a few more years to find somebody. Because there definitely was the mindset that BYU was where I needed to find somebody. And if I graduated from BYU and hadn't found somebody, it was gonna be really tough to find somebody after that.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] I had the same mindset.

Shannon Lamb [00:44:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I got into the program, started making friends. I met who was to become my husband at the time. And, you know, we started dating. And I. So here I was, dating with no previous experience, very quickly trying to decide if this was somebody I was going to marry.

Shannon Lamb [00:44:38] And deciding that, okay, you know, he. What I say now is he kind of, like, approximated the things I was looking for. And so in my. Super naive and unlike. Just lack of experience, right. I was like, well, what are the things that I'm going to need to find in a guy to make sure that he's a good husband. Well, if he was an ap, so an assistant to the president, that was like, okay, well. And he was right.

Shannon Lamb [00:45:07] Yes, he was an AP on his mission. And I kind of knew instinctively that I was, you know, pretty motivated and kind of a go getter. So I knew kind of almost instinctively that I would need that in somebody else because I knew that ultimately I would be staying home with the kids. And I'm like, this is not gonna work. If my spouse, who I knew would have to provide for us, was not gonna be able to provide, well, that. That was not gonna be good for me. And so I'm making these decisions based on zero real life experience. And so, you know, I did the best I could. But what did the church teach you about that?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:45] Like, if you kind of look, think back to what you were looking for, you kind of said the AP part. Yeah. But also, what did you learn from kind of your church experience? It could also be kind of within your family, too, your family culture. That were like the important things, because you kind of mentioned having high expectations or. Right. So what were those things? I always think it's interesting to connect at the time, what we're looking for, as opposed to like some years in, when we're like, now, how would I approach? Really, what's important? Right.

Shannon Lamb [00:46:17] But back then, yeah, So I think that I wanted a good provider. Right. Like, that had to be important because even though, you know, I don't even know if I thought about myself as being a provider, but I knew that my plan was to stay at home because that's what the church tells you, you know, that sure, you can even get your education. You may work for a few years, but then you're going to have those kids and you're going to stay at home. So you, you are going to need to have somebody who provides well. So that for me was at the forefront because I'm like, yeah, I don't want to feel that strain of not having enough money or whatever.

Shannon Lamb [00:46:52] And so I felt like I needed somebody who was like a go getter. And so to me, at the time, what metrics did you have to look at of some? You know, we were all early twenties. What are we looking at that would really be able to help us know that this person is going to be a good spouse, a good father, a good provider.

Shannon Lamb [00:47:10] And so, yeah, an assistant to the president was like. One of the things I thought was like, would definitely indicate that that would be a good spouse. Of course, somebody who served a mission. I mean, no Question. They had to serve a mission, especially because I served a mission, you know, and just like, you know, being a go getter, doing well in college and having a plan, you know, I felt I had a plan, so I felt that they needed to have a plan. But I think the biggest thing that I think a lot of that is actually my own personality. But, but the biggest thing was that you better, you want to have somebody who can provide for you. And so I think that was like one of the biggest things, kind of

Margi Dehlin [00:47:50] like the center in your mind.

Shannon Lamb [00:47:54] But then beyond that, not having any real dating or relationship experience. I know it was just clueless, you know, and so I look back on it now and I just go, you know, I had no business getting married.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Because you're 23 at this point, you never really had a boyfriend.

Shannon Lamb [00:48:09] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] And you're trying to as quickly as possible marry someone to have kids as soon as possible.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:16] Check that.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Like that's the Mormon. Without knowing anything about yourself, really. Oh yeah. Or it's just like find the dude to marry who will provide.

Shannon Lamb [00:48:26] Well, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:27] And be a good dad.

Shannon Lamb [00:48:28] And I think that. And I still feel like this thought is out there. I think it's kind of going away a little bit more. But that marriage is the pinnacle, like it is the thing you are striving for. And once you get there, all will be well. Like, you may be having some problems, maybe you don't get along with a friend group, maybe some siblings, your parents, whoever it is. But you served your mission, you're back, you're gonna graduate, you know, you're doing college and you just need to find that person. And when you find that person, all will be well because being with that person will make everything just fine.

Shannon Lamb [00:49:08] And of course, if you get married in the temple, all will be well. Right. Because that protects you. Being married in the temple is going to protect you. So I felt like to go back to my situation, I felt like, well, we have our challenges because we had them from the beginning.

Shannon Lamb [00:49:23] And I didn't know that we were a great fit. In certain ways we were like really a really good fit. And then other ways we weren't. But I thought, you know what? Again, in my wise thinking of being a 23 year old who had never had a boyfriend, I thought, well, we're getting married in the temple, we have similar goals and it will all be just fine.

Shannon Lamb [00:49:42] And so yeah, you like lean into the promises. Yeah, yeah. And also to that point, up to that point, it's not like I'd found Anybody else that I thought was, like, amazing or who I'd been pining over. So I was like, okay, this guy's good.

Shannon Lamb [00:49:59] And this is the next step. And so I wanted to check those boxes and do the things I was supposed to do. And so I did.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:09] You wanted to arrive, like, in young women's. I think that it makes so much sense you felt that way. Because I think particularly for young women's, which is 12 to 18 years for girls. It is the way it is, the program.

Shannon Lamb [00:50:24] Oh, yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:24] It ends with basically. And then you get married.

Shannon Lamb [00:50:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:28] And maybe a little bit of. And have children.

Shannon Lamb [00:50:31] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:31] Sprinkled in. But the married part is really a big deal, so it so makes sense to me.

Shannon Lamb [00:50:37] Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's like the pin. Well, I mean, having kids was like. Was gonna be the thing after that, but like the getting married, because. Yeah. You had a ride.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:47] It's the gate.

Shannon Lamb [00:50:47] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:48] That gives the rest.

Shannon Lamb [00:50:49] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:50] Which is basically children.

Shannon Lamb [00:50:52] Yeah, I know. That's all that was gonna be. The rest for me was. The rest was kids. The end. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:58] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:51:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Okay. So you found your eternal companion, knowing nothing about yourself or him, really.

Shannon Lamb [00:51:06] Yep, yep.

John Dehlin [00:51:07] How. How fast was your courtship?

Shannon Lamb [00:51:10] So it was, you know, kind of long for byu. BYU standards.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] So, like, more than a couple months, basically.

Shannon Lamb [00:51:15] Yeah. Yeah. We met in January. Dated, like, we were off and on dating. But we. We interacted well, I will say. Cause there was a lot of, like, disagreements and fighting, which should have been, you know, a clue. But. So we met in January. We were hanging out by January, and then we got married. We did not get married till December of that year. So that was. I felt pretty good about that.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] That's epic.

Shannon Lamb [00:51:36] Yeah, it's like, look, I waited a long time, okay. And I think we were even gonna get married the following spring. But again, and this is a whole thing, you know, we can talk maybe about as we go into, like, change in beliefs, but, like, so much is centered around getting married so you can have sex, basically. You know what I mean? Like, you're just, like, so much gets pent up around that thing. And so you make decisions. Like, we didn't wait longer to get married. We got married sooner so that we wouldn't have to worry about messing up and things like that. And so it's like, okay, so I've known you for, you know, nine, ten months.

Shannon Lamb [00:52:15] You know, for us, we were, you know, broken up for part of that time. And then we were gonna wait a few more months so we could maybe get to Know each other a little bit better. And we thought. But then we thought, nope, don't wanna mess up. Wanna make it to the temple. So we're gonna move it up. So instead of taking longer to make sure that this was the right thing, we instead moved up the wedding.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:37] Yes. Yep.

Shannon Lamb [00:52:40] Which I think is common, you know? Cause it's just these impossible standards that we place on young adults who should be having the opportunity to explore. Explore themselves, explore their sexuality. But instead we say, nope, none of that until you're married. And it just causes a lot of problems.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:56] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:52:56] So.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] Okay, so you got married at 23 or 24?

Shannon Lamb [00:53:02] I, I. Yeah, 23. And I turned 24 right after we got married, so.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Okay, was he younger than you or.

Shannon Lamb [00:53:08] He's older by a little over a year. So he had just turned 25, so he was, like, old. Like, he, like, talk about a menace. And, like. And he had been that same ward for, like, his whole time after he got back from his mission. And so he was definitely feeling like he needed to get married. So.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] Yeah. Okay, so you did it. You're like, check boxes checked.

Shannon Lamb [00:53:34] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Yep.

Shannon Lamb [00:53:35] And I was going to live happily ever after.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] Right.

Shannon Lamb [00:53:37] You know, like, as I had been promised.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] So should we end the podcast now?

Shannon Lamb [00:53:41] Yeah, the end. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So I was still working on my master's. He had just graduated from byu, and that was, like, a funny whole process, too, of, like, getting job offers. I mean, we were just so clueless, you know? And so we're trying to get job offers and start being, like, real adults, you know? And I remember we went and got married, and he had graduated, and he just. We didn't even have a job offer yet, but we were like, meh, it'll all work out. And it did. You know, I think sometimes that's the fun of youth, is you're not too worried about anything. So he started a job. I was doing my master's degree. He actually then decided he wanted to go and get a master's degree as well. He was working for Novell at the time. If you remember Novell, I worked there too. Oh, did you?

John Dehlin [00:54:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] When they acquired WordPerfect, I was part of that whole transition.

Shannon Lamb [00:54:35] Okay. Yeah, yeah. And he felt super pumped that he got that job. And, you know, we were on our way. Like, we were gonna, you know, live the happy Mormon life. And so I was doing my program, and we were married, I don't know, like, nine or ten. Yeah, nine months or something. So, of course, it was time to start trying to get pregnant.

Shannon Lamb [00:54:59] And so we. And I timed it right because I had the master's program that I was doing and I was really enjoying it. But I knew that my next step was to have kids, as that was just kind of like already always taught to me. And so I remember we had our good friends who had also gotten married around the same time as we did and were like, hey, we're going to start trying to get pregnant. And they're like, okay, us too. And so we were like, had a. We had a competition to see who could get pregnant first. I mean, it's just like, just what you do because you're young and you know, it's like.

Shannon Lamb [00:55:35] Anyway. And so I got pregnant pretty much right away, which I thought it would take a little while. So I thought I would be able to like, finish up my program, you know, maybe even work for a little bit. Cause I didn't know if I'd be able to get pregnant right away and then, you know, maybe even work and then maybe have my first kid. But I got pregnant right away and that kind of threw me for a loop. I got very sick and was still trying to do my program and make it through. And it was just hard because I was like, well, I didn't realize morning sickness was so bad. But I made it through, got my degree, and the day after I graduated, I gave birth to my first son.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] So that's a lot. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. Very fast.

Shannon Lamb [00:56:26] Yeah, yeah. So. But I felt like, hey, I felt like I was like going down that track and I was doing everything, just checking the boxes, as in a great timeframe. Right. You know, because I was like. Cause I'll be honest, at the time I was liking what I was doing. But I think what I felt was I just, with a lack of life experience, trying to be a therapist in any form, even as a school Counselor. As a 24, 25 year old, I had no life experience. And so I felt very like, ill equipped to really advise people at that time. And so my.

Shannon Lamb [00:57:02] And I did an internship at Spanish Fork High School where I was the school counselor and one of the school counselors and school psychologists. But I was just so inexperienced. And so it actually felt a bit stressful for me to be doing that job. And I.

Shannon Lamb [00:57:18] I actually felt like being a mom saved me from having to work, which was weird. Which I did not think that that would be the case. But I felt unprepared to be a counselor in any way. So it was kind of like, okay, I got Pregnant, and I'm gonna be a mom. And that kind of saved me from having to, like, figure out a career or even really do anything with this master's degree, because that felt kind of scary to me because I just was not very prepared. I know you have a background in that, too. I think you. Because didn't you get your doctorate?

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Yeah, I got a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology, but our cohort was school psychologists and PhD psychologists.

Shannon Lamb [00:58:03] But you were older, right, when you got it? I'm 46, so that was a thing. I'm like. And I don't think I. Again, this was all, like, in the back of my head, but I'm like, I know nothing. Like, I. I'm gonna try to counsel other people. And so it. It felt like I was just like, you know, kind of pulling it out of nowhere. The things I was going to try to counsel these. Even the kids, you know, I was, like, trying to do the best I could, but, like, that's why school.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:26] The.

Shannon Lamb [00:58:26] The. Or the. Yeah, the psychology. School psychology. Part of it. Because we're just testing. It's just like giving iq, you know, IQ tests and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Races and whisks.

Shannon Lamb [00:58:35] Yes, yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [00:58:37] And. But really. So I was like, okay, the pregnancy thing worked out because I was feeling stressed about what I would even do as a school counselor and feeling unprepared. So I'm like, well, let me just dive into motherhood then, you know? And that was, like, the shock of my life. I had a difficult delivery. They had to use forceps. He had swallowed meconium. So he was in the hospital for a week after. So I didn't get to take my baby home with me. That was traumatic.

Shannon Lamb [00:59:10] And then I remember, like, when I finally was able to bring him home, like, trying to nurse all these things, and I'm like, nobody told me. I actually felt a little betrayed. Like, I'm like, why did. No, none of these women. All these women I know, why did they not tell me how hard motherhood was? You know? And I'm like, well. And everyone's like, yep, yep, really hard, you know? And I'm like, wait, I don't get to sleep at night? Like, I. Like, I wanna go to sleep, but I might have to wake up in an hour if they wake up crying. It was just. I was just unprepared. And I don't know that you could ever really prepare for motherhood, but that was very hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:47] We've talked about that a little bit on the podcast. This idea of we Talk about informed consent on Mormon stories. But there's like an element of that. And I know you can't prepare someone for every aspect of. But like, maybe we could touch on a few things really honestly. Like, here are some things that a little more informed consent around what it does to a woman's body sometimes psychology, lifestyle, you know. Yeah. Moving forward, I do feel like we could do better.

Shannon Lamb [01:00:24] Yeah. And I feel like we already are. Like, I feel like our generation is kind of the one that's like, wait a minute, this is not working. Like, we're the ones willing to speak about these things because our parents were like, nope, we're not gonna like nothing. Like, my parents did not talk to me about anything even when I was getting married. There was no conversation about what sex might be like or, like nothing. And so I feel like I was ill prepared for a lot of these big things of life that nobody spoke to me about nothing. Not even like, even when I was getting engaged, you know, that it was like, now, are you sure about this?

Shannon Lamb [01:01:01] Or, you know, do you think this would be good or do you want to think about. No. Nope. It was like, okay, she's just doing the next thing, you know. And again, I don't, you know, it's nobody's fault. Everybody was doing the best they can, but I think our generation is the one that's like, no, we're not this, we are not gonna have this be this way for our kids. We are going to let them know that marriage is really hard. We are gonna let them know that raising kids is challenging.

Shannon Lamb [01:01:26] And I feel like my kids do know that now. Like, my daughter is like, she doesn't even know if she wants to have kids. And I'm like, that's totally fine. You know, I feel like for me, there wasn't really a choice because I was. When you're always told that that's what you're gonna do, is there really a choice, you know, or that that is what God wants you to do even more? You know, it's not even like, well, this is what my parents want, or this is what, you know, the people around me. You're taught that this is what God wants for you to do.

Shannon Lamb [01:01:57] So it's hard. And I'm not one to say, oh, I was like, pushed into this, or I had no choice. But I think you do have to question if you ever really had a choice, if your belief system is that this is what God wants for you, you know?

John Dehlin [01:02:11] No, that's right. It's not a choice.

Shannon Lamb [01:02:12] Yeah, so. So it was hard, but I adjusted, and then I ended up loving it. That was, like, the shock of my life. Is that because I was like, oh, I did not love babysitting, but I loved my kids and just did feel pretty fulfilled.

Shannon Lamb [01:02:30] This was hard, but it was good. And they're so cute. So it was challenging, but I was like, okay, here I've arrived. I landed in this next phase. And I wasn't like, you know, some of these other women who probably thought they were gonna maybe like motherhood, but it wasn't as much. It didn't fulfill them as much, you know? And so I actually remember feeling lucky that I did enjoy it as much as I did, because I would hear rumblings from maybe some other family members or friends who. They wouldn't outright say it, but they would just talk about how hard it was. And in a way that made it clear to me that they weren't enjoying it as much as I was.

Shannon Lamb [01:03:09] But. But. And again, you know, they're just. But there wasn't space to really. You couldn't, as a Mormon mom, say that you didn't love it, you know, and that you weren't fulfilled, you know, because again, what were you taught your whole life is that this was your call. This is what you were made for, Right?

Shannon Lamb [01:03:26] And so for me, I was just happy because I was like, okay, I got this. You know, so much so that I was like, all right, let's do the next one. Let's do the next one. And I had felt when I was pregnant with my first. And this was an impression that I still believe was an impression that I had no idea of what number of the number of kids I was gonna have.

John Dehlin [01:03:47] Tell non Mormons what you mean by impression.

Shannon Lamb [01:03:49] Oh, impression, like, you know, the spirit. Like a feeling of what you should be doing in your life.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] Like the Holy Ghost communicating to you,

Shannon Lamb [01:03:58] telling you that this is something that I should do or not do in my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:03] And.

Shannon Lamb [01:04:03] And I. I didn't know how many kids I wanted. I knew I was gonna have a few. And my husband at the time had said, I'll leave that to you. Just whatever number of kids you want is fine. And so I distinctly remember feeling like I was gonna have five kids.

Shannon Lamb [01:04:21] And that to this day, is still something that feels like a true legitimate impression to me. And I say now, because I ended up having four boys, and the last. My fifth was my girl. And I'm like, yeah, she needed to come.

Raising Five Kids Inside Mormon Culture

Shannon Lamb [01:04:35] And I even look back, I wrote something in the third grade where I said the number of kids I wanted, and I said three. You know what I mean? So to this day, I do feel like all the kids that ended up in my family as my kids were ones that were supposed to be there. And again, that's something that I have navigated of impressions from the past.

Shannon Lamb [01:04:56] And now, was that the spirit, or was that me just thinking that this is what I wanted? And. And so that's been something I've thought about. But that one I still hold to is that to have those kids in my family.

Shannon Lamb [01:05:13] So I had that impression. So again, I like a goal. And so that was, like, set, okay, I'm gonna have this number of kids. Unfortunately, God did not give the memo to my spouse at the time. So there was way more ways he. So I think he felt overwhelmed by kid. Not the first one, because I was doing everything, you know, and he was just working. Right.

Shannon Lamb [01:05:38] But once we started having the second kid, and I think he was okay with how quickly we had the second one. But then after number two, he was like, let's slow down. And I'm like, no. Because I was like, this is how I felt. I said, you know, I'm supporting you. You get to go off and do this career and follow your dreams and goals, and I'm supporting you in that. My one thing is kids. Like, this is my thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:04] Stay in your lane.

Shannon Lamb [01:06:05] Yeah. I'm like, this is my role. You just be the. Just provide the thing I need to get pregnant. You know what I mean? I'm like. And it wasn't quite that way, but, like, provide the thing. Provide the thing that I'm like, just let me do this, okay? And obviously, I'm a very. Like, if I set my mind to something, you know, that's kind of what I want to do. But I will also say that I wanted to, like, I did want to kind of, like, pop out these kids because it was hard. And I'm just like, you know, this is crazy. And it was crazy because we did have kids very close together.

Shannon Lamb [01:06:36] But then I just knew I had a plan where I'm like, but then the crazy will be over, and I can move forward with whatever I want to do after that. Because, again, how nobody prepares you for motherhood. You're up half the night, you're nursing. Nursing ties you to the kid. You know, My first child struggled. Didn't even couldn't take a bottle. So I was the only source of sustenance for this kid for months and months. And it was stressful. And so I Just knew that. I'm like, look, I know I want to have five kids. I know that this is what I feel I should do.

Shannon Lamb [01:07:08] And it's really, really hard. So let me just knock it out and get it done. It's kind of like when I think about how I wanted to knock out college and get it done, I'm like, let's just get this done, you know? And I think my husband at the time, like, legitimately so, was like, pumping the brakes and saying, I don't want to do this or I'm not ready for this. And I felt.

Shannon Lamb [01:07:29] I felt it was unfair to me because I was the one doing all the work for them anyway. I mean, we had a very, very traditional relationship in that I did all the stuff for the kids and he worked mostly and he would go do fun things with them, take them to amusement parks and take them to swim and do all that stuff. But I did all the things like doctor's appointments and school stuff and meals and grocery shopping and I even did the yard maintenance. I just did all the things. And I think I see this a lot in women who are still faithful and believing, who feel that the role is to be the mom. If you are high achieving, but the only thing you can do is be a mom.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:11] That's right.

Shannon Lamb [01:08:12] Well, you're gonna knock it out of the park. You're like, well, I'm.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:14] That's the space you have. So you apply it to that space with all. Yeah, yeah.

Shannon Lamb [01:08:19] Like, that's the space where I have to achieve and excel. So I'm just gonna have more kids. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just going to. Because I can. Because I can manage it and I can do it. And so. And for me, it wasn't like I said. I still to this day will say that I feel that I was supposed to have five kids, but.

Shannon Lamb [01:08:39] But that I was just willing to do all the things all the time for all of them, you know, and that was kind of my. That was kind of my argument to my husband was that, look, I'll do all the stuff. Which was not a good argument because, of course, I was resentful when I had to do all this stuff and I, you know, didn't get the support I wanted. And so. But again. And I look back and if you go back to, like, all the signs for whether we would have been a good fit, he would have been a good spouse, what do you have to look at?

Shannon Lamb [01:09:14] We don't know what it's going to be like to have kids. Like, he honestly could not have known until we started having kids, whether this was his jam or not, you know. And so you kind of get halfway through and you're like, oh, wait, maybe this isn't what I wanted or what I thought, but you already have the kit, you're already in. And then like I said for me, because I had in my head that I was, you know, I was supposed, supposed to have five kids, it was gonna be hard to dissuade me from that goal.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:43] That's right. That's right. And I think that is. This is challenging stuff. First of all, like the roles paradigm, while it may have some benefit, let's just say where it comes to like being very clear as to who does what. But like, there are some just by setup, the structure where it fails is just in co creating in connection.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:09] It's way easier to parallel life under those kind of things, I think as. And it's not, it's just not a partnership within different spaces. Right. And also it doesn't play to people's strengths. There can be. If we're looking for certain attributes and you're in a partnership, sometimes the woman is not the best fit to be at home. And it leaves just no space for kind of, oh, let's pick and choose. And really, you know, make this a personal thing. But also what you're bringing up around you had, you know, a sense, a feeling of. That felt very clear to you about having five children. And I think what that does is it sets you up for an end, which Mormonism is so about the end.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:55] It's so about like getting there, getting to the. And then when you get there, there's like another getting there. You're never actually in your life in presence. And really like, there are fewer moments like that. And so just like you said, you had the feeling, he didn't, he didn't have the direct experience of we should have five. So you're moving forward with it. And I, I love it that you're like, your first one was really hard and you went on to have like, that's so like, wow. And then you went on to have four others. But also you're. What I'm hearing you say is like, kick it out.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:31] It was chaos, but like, get her done and then we'll be in the next kind of. Which is this sense again of like, you're living for a future. You're living for a time that you're not in, you know, and that's just it. It's a very Tricky way to live because you're never quite here. You're never quite fully. Does that make sense?

Shannon Lamb [01:11:54] Yeah. It's interesting because I have not thought about it that way, but it was so true because I knew, even though I was happy with kids and happy that I was able to take this on and manage it, I did not like the newborn stage and the early baby stage. And so it was like, let me get through. Let me get to. Through to here. And you know, okay, they're potty trained and now they're going to school. And it was like all these things to, like, get to these next stages.

Shannon Lamb [01:12:20] But also that is my personality. So I think some of that could be Mormonism, but some of it is my personality. Like, I like to see progress. Right. It's like, okay, now we're here, and now we got here, and then, you know, and we kind of knocked it out and did it. But. But it is true in Mormonism where you're. Yeah, there's never an ending. You're always okay. And when I get here and I'm trying for this thing. And that does serve as a way to kind of not allow us to be present as much. For sure. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:47] A little more end focused.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Okay, so five kids in how many years?

Shannon Lamb [01:12:53] So I had five kids in eight years.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] Wow.

Shannon Lamb [01:13:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:00] That is a physical. Let alone just like a lot of feet, but let's just take the body on for that. That is a physical feat.

Shannon Lamb [01:13:10] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:11] Let alone psychology and resources.

Shannon Lamb [01:13:14] Yeah. And I gained a lot of weight with each kid. I gained between 50 and 65 pounds. My body was like, you know, gaining and losing weight, and then you're nursing, and that can be hard. And then you're up, you know, in the middle of the night. And. Yeah, I mean, it was a whirlwind for sure, but I felt good because I was like, you know, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, and I'm checking the boxes and I am doing the things the right way. And, you know, during that time, there were challenges, you know, pretty consistently in our marriage, but I still felt that because I was doing things the way I was supposed to, that I was happier than others, even though I wasn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:00] Interesting. So the right way, in the way you were supposed to, you were happier than others, even though you weren't.

Shannon Lamb [01:14:07] Yeah, yeah. And I was happy with my life. I was happy with what I chose, with the craziness of the kids. Really, just the one area I was not happy in was my marriage. But if I'm honest, that was kind of what I'd had modeled for me in my own family. My parents weren't happy and. But heck, divorce was not an option.

John Dehlin [01:14:32] Now you didn't mention that when we were talking about your upbringing. That's fine. Maybe you didn't want to go there.

Shannon Lamb [01:14:37] Well, what I will say is, I mean my parents marriage was a very traditional like 1950s style. Like the man worked and the mom stayed home. And my mom was a convert and she did the best she could, but I think she was really overwhelmed with the six kids that she had.

Shannon Lamb [01:14:58] And if I felt like my role was to like just be a mom and have all these kids, what was it like for her? I mean, that really was her only role and so I think she was overwhelmed.

Shannon Lamb [01:15:09] My dad, who was, could not, could not go places emotionally, could not go very deep emotionally. Just, he just didn't have the capacity. I mean, my parents did the best they could. They just didn't have the capacity. And I think they did a great job for what they were given and what they had available to them.

Shannon Lamb [01:15:30] But it was clear that they weren't happy. There was no overt fighting in front of us. It was all kept under wraps. But what that taught me in a very subtle way is it doesn't matter how unhappy we are, we will be staying in this and we will not be getting divorced. And I knew that absolutely was just like filtered into my brain. And I've talked to my siblings about this too and they say the same thing. It was like nothing was ever spoken about it. But divorce was not an option. And of course you get that in Mormonism too. Certainly that came in Mormonism, but it very much came from my family of origin.

Shannon Lamb [01:16:11] And the funny thing is, in my super wise 23 year old brain when I had married my spouse, I thought I had dodged the bullet that had hit my parents, right? Like I thought I had done better. I thought I had chosen wisely and that I would not fall into any of the pitfalls that they did.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] And also, you know, you don't know how other people are doing. And you also are told no marriage is perfect. Every marriage has its challenges. So it's really hard to know exactly how happy you are relative to others. And anyone who studies psychology mental health knows that there's this V of like happiness where you're happiest before your kids come. They've measured you're happiest before the kids come.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:01] That's part of informed consent, by the way.

John Dehlin [01:17:03] It's just the scratch and then happiness tanks with all your kids, and it kind of bottoms when you're done having kids, but then it climbs as your

Margi Dehlin [01:17:13] kids are getting older, like middle childhood into.

John Dehlin [01:17:16] And it doesn't really return to where it was when you were just courting and early married until your kids are gone.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:24] Well, my understanding is it also dips in teen years. It will dip again.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] Oh, there's a double dip. It's like a W. Okay. And then it doesn't actually have a chance of exceeding the happiness of early courtship until your golden years when all the kids are gone. So, I mean, that's just for everyone who's having kids. The happiness tanks. And it's hard and it's. And it's easy for an unhealthy marriage to be masked in diapers and nursing and sleepless nights and church service for the spouse and maybe for you and just early careers and climbing the ladder. It's almost a miracle any marriage survives. But it's almost impossible to know whether you're in a genuinely unhealthy, dysfunctional marriage unless there's, like, physical abuse or, like, infidelity or like some major catastrophic thing. It's just hard to know.

Shannon Lamb [01:18:22] Yeah, well. And, you know, to go back to my parents really quickly, I mean, nobody was going to speak about if they were in an unhappy marriage, and nobody was going to talk about really, about the things you would really have to do to have a happy marriage. They would talk about it a little bit on the surface at church, but, I mean, you think, like, 70s, 80s. Nobody was delving deep into that, and nobody was speaking to each other about their hurt, you know, about their hurt, their shame, their, you know, the dysfunction. I mean, those were not even terms that my parents would have been using.

Shannon Lamb [01:18:53] And then, you know, to go to me, I thought. I thought just knowing that I didn't want what they had was gonna be enough. But also I was entering into it as somebody who had no experience myself. You know what I mean? So how was I supposed to gauge, you know, if I was going to be able to make a go of this when I didn't have any experience myself? Relational, you know, relationship experience.

Shannon Lamb [01:19:16] And then again, you can't know how you're going to be when you have kids. You know, you can't know how much you're going to like it or not like it or how much it's going to take out of you.

Shannon Lamb [01:19:26] So it's hard because it's just all these unknowns, and you try to make the best choice. So even now when I look back on my decision to marry my ex spouse, I still would probably make the same decision, you know what I mean? Because that was the information I had available to me.

Shannon Lamb [01:19:46] And I think it just would have been really hard to know some of the things that came out later on. It just would have been hard to know.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:52] Yeah, I think that's really important, that piece.

Shannon Lamb [01:19:55] But the bigger thing would have been. The bigger thing would have been, hey, Shannon, there's no rush to get married. Like, there's no rush. Like, you know, if they had incentivized me to, like, graduate and not be married. You know what I mean? Like, hey, live life, like, you know, let's see if you can get your master's and not get married and maybe go on and work a little bit. But that just wasn't. That just wasn't the narrative, you know,

Margi Dehlin [01:20:17] and it wasn't valued. Yeah, like, those were. If anything, they were less valued. It was seen as inferior. Yes. So that's a whole different thing, too. If they were really seen as things that were an ad, like, wow, that's self development. That's amazing. That adds to you, that gives you, you know, perspective and things that will enrich your partnership with someone. It's like the opposite.

Shannon Lamb [01:20:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, so it was like we were doing the best we could and, you know, having kids, moving around the country, we both were accepting callings, you know, nothing was too big. I think we were happy to the extent that we could be happy. I think also what was very much ingrained in me is whether it really felt like happiness or not. Mormonism is where you could have true happiness. I mean, don't you remember, I don't know if you remember being taught this, that, like, those other people, the others out there, they thought they were happy.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] Counterfeit happiness.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:19] Yes. Right.

Shannon Lamb [01:21:21] They thought they were happy, but no, they're not really happy. So when you have that ingrained in you, you just accept it. And I can remember thinking, even as a younger, like a teen and young adult, like, man, this God is like kind of a stick in the mud, you know, like, you know, seeing other people being able to drink or, you know, be with whoever they wanted to be with and going, like, well, that looks fun, but it's not real fun. You know what I mean? It's like fake fun, you know, but also vaguely thinking, thinking, why is God such a. Like, you know, kind of stick in the mud?

Shannon Lamb [01:21:50] Like, he doesn't want to have fun, you know, but going, well, I don't know, but this is the way it is, you know? And so that idea that you are doing things that may be not what you would choose to do or not bringing you that much joy, it can stick in there, and you can hold onto that for a long time.

Shannon Lamb [01:22:10] And at the same time, my kids brought me a high level of happiness. My family did really bring me lots of joy, truly. And so I had that, you know, and I'm like, well, you know, the relationship with my spouse, it's not great, but, you know, but I love our family, and we were good partners in many ways, which kind of came later in business and such. But, yeah, so it was. It was. I thought I was doing pretty good, you know.

John Dehlin [01:22:41] Okay, so what happened to wreck it all?

Shannon Lamb [01:22:46] Well, I had my. So I had my fifth kid. We moved to Virginia. I had decided I was going to get my real estate license because I've just always loved real estate and kind of been almost obsessed with it. And I decided that I was gonna get my real estate license because I kind of wanted to build this other house in our neighborhood. And my husband was like, well, you need to get. You need to get a license. And so I started doing it sooner than I had planned. My youngest was 3, and my oldest was 11. So I had five kids ages 3 to 11. I'm like, I'm getting my license. Just kind of see where this takes me. Hopefully I can build this house that I want to build and I can represent myself. And right when I was getting my license, I got called as the Relief Society president.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] And so at what age?

Shannon Lamb [01:23:41] So I was. Oh, what was I, 35, 36 with five kids. And I just was 11. 11 and younger. My youngest was three. My oldest was 11.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] And explain to our never Mormons what the responsibilities and duties of a Relief Society preference.

Shannon Lamb [01:23:58] So the Relief Society president is basically like the leader over all the women in the ward, which is like a congregation. So several hundred women. And you are in charge of. You have counselors, so you have people. You have other women who help you, but you're in charge of figuring out what the lessons are gonna be. Every Sunday, we do activities you have to minister to. Well, all the women are ministered, but you're making sure that everybody in your congregation. Congregation is doing well. If there are any big issues happening with any of the women in your congregation, you are there to kind of help them through it, provide any support that's needed.

Shannon Lamb [01:24:39] As the Relief Society president, you're also in charge of doing the food orders from the bishop's storehouse, which is like, the most stressful thing ever. So if there's any women who are in need, they need to get food from the bishop's storehouse, which is basically like, like, free food for anybody who is in need.

Shannon Lamb [01:24:59] I had to go to their house, literally open their cupboards, and assess whether they really needed the food or not and how much food they need. Like, I needed to open their fridge and go through their cabinets and, like, ask them. I needed to check, like, what was happening in the house. Like, did the kids have cell phones and things like that? Because, like, if they have cell phones, then maybe they don't need food. And it was that I specifically remember as something that was very unenjoyable for me to do.

Shannon Lamb [01:25:33] And then the funny thing is, even after I made the decision, I still had to go to my bishop for him to approve it, like, for it to be okay, because no woman can make a decision herself in the church.

Shannon Lamb [01:25:44] But so it was a lot of. I would say I was in my nice little Mormon bubble of raising my kids and do my own thing. And by becoming the Relief Society president, my worldview opened to real big challenges in people's lives. I mean, I was shocked at finding out some of the things that people were struggling with.

Serving as Relief Society President

John Dehlin [01:26:07] And

Shannon Lamb [01:26:10] it really just surprised me at the challenges because I was like, look, my marriage was not great, but otherwise life was pretty good. I didn't have any extreme things happening in my life. And so to see all these things that these women were struggling with, it was very eye opening.

Shannon Lamb [01:26:26] It kind of like, I'd say a little bit of innocence lost as to, you know, how well the church can work for you, because I thought, oh, well, with the church, you know, yeah, bad things can happen, but you're still doing pretty good. And then, you know, you learn some of the stories because we're trying to help these women. And you're like, wow, people are struggling with some big stuff. And again, I felt completely inadequate. Like, I'm like, why am I being called? I don't feel prepared for this, but I'm like, well, I'm just gonna do the best I can.

Shannon Lamb [01:26:56] And so it was good for me to see, to have my eyes opened as to the struggles of other people, of the women in our ward. But, you know, kind of similarly, in my master's program, I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, you're. And I mean, everything from, like, mental health, infidelity, you know, things bordering on, like, spouses going to jail. I mean, just things where you're just like, I'm like, I don't know what to do for you, and I don't know that, you know, so I've set apart for my calling, which is like, you know, they lay their hands on your head and they give you, I don't know, some special power.

Shannon Lamb [01:27:32] I guess we don't quite still know what it is as women, you know, in the church, what we're given. But you're supposed to be given special power to know how to help these women. And, I mean, I was praying hard. I was praying hard to, like, know what to do, but a lot of times I didn't.

Shannon Lamb [01:27:48] My life experience was limited, and I often felt just at a loss for how to help these women who were experiencing things I had never experienced before. And did I think God was talking to me? Sure. I mean, I felt. I got impressions and things, but. But I again, felt overwhelmed because here I'm trying to do.

Shannon Lamb [01:28:11] Trying to start my business. I'm trying to deal with my five kids. And again, I had been doing all of, you know, the vast majority of the child rearing. And so to go from that to being called as a relief society president, which was taking time out from doing stuff in the home as well as start, you know, trying. Trying to build up a business as a. As a real estate agent. Yeah, it was just crazy. Like, I look back on it now, and I'm like, I don't even know how I got through that time, but I guess some would say I didn't because that. That started my faith crisis, or faith expansion, as I like to call it.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:48] But, yeah, there you go.

Shannon Lamb [01:28:49] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:50] But to imagine you being released society president with how many kids? Not even in kindergarten yet.

Shannon Lamb [01:28:55] Like, a couple?

John Dehlin [01:28:55] Like.

Shannon Lamb [01:28:56] Yeah. So, yeah, two of my kids were not even in school.

John Dehlin [01:28:58] So they're tugging on your skirt while you're looking through poor people's pantries, like, I don't know, casseroles. Delivering casseroles in the car while kids are in car seats and you're trying to coordinate soccer practice.

Shannon Lamb [01:29:12] Yeah, yeah. And start a business. That was, like, the biggest thing. So my youngest was three, so I think my second youngest was maybe in kindergarten at the time, but so I would literally take her to. To my office, and she would just sit and play in the corner while I was trying to, like, work. And so it was just. Yeah, I mean, as I think about it now, I'm like, it was just crazy, you know, so I'm trying to excel in this thing that I felt God wanted me to do, which was to be the Relief Society president. And I'm sure everybody feels this way.

Shannon Lamb [01:29:43] They're like, well, I don't feel prepared, but I'm gonna do this is what God wants. So I'm gonna, like, rise to the occasion, right? So I was trying to do that the best I can and be successful in my career, like, the career I started, and not even successful, but just be, like, proficient, you know what I mean? Like, just try to get something going.

Shannon Lamb [01:30:03] And it was hard because up to this point, you know, everything was. You know, women are in a supportive role, and when you're the mom, you're running the ship there. But for your spouse, you are supporting them as they apply for this position or try to get that job or we're going to move here. You know, you're the one that's malleable to do whatever they need to do to provide for the family. Well, that started to shift a little bit because now I had a large calling and I was working outside the home, and that caused a lot of strain as well.

Shannon Lamb [01:30:40] And so, you know, looking at it at the time, I wouldn't have really been able to fully recognize how stressed I was. But clearly, I was under a lot of stress, and, you know, cracks start to happen. And I think one of the biggest things for me was we would go to ward council every. Like, every other. Every other week or whatever it was.

Shannon Lamb [01:31:05] And, you know, so we're sitting down to talk about what we're, you know, what we're supposed to do to help the ward. The missionaries would be there, and they would spend 20 minutes talking about who the missionaries had contacted and how we could support these people that were investigating the church. And I remember one of my first thoughts were, like, we have, like, maybe 50% activity rate. Like, why are we trying to get new people in when we can't even keep the people we have on our records right now? And so that was one thought, and then another one was like, I had been called as Relief Society president, and then my neighbor, like, a few months later was called as the bishop.

Shannon Lamb [01:31:42] And he was, like, 32. I mean, just really young. And I can remember, you know, and he did an amazing job. But, like, I can remember going to these board council meetings, which were meetings that would happen early in the morning. So I was like, I had to leave my kids, go and talk about how we were going to make the ward great, basically. And I remember looking around and just going, this is what God.

Shannon Lamb [01:32:04] It's us. Like, we're the ones that God wants to, like, make this happen. I'm like, dang. Like, this is all he got. This is, I guess, all he has, you know? And again, you know, the people I was serving with were great, but, like, it just didn't feel like we were doing anything that felt like it was actually going to truly move the work forward. Right? Cause it was like, okay, we're gonna spend an inordinate amount of time with people who aren't even members yet, trying to see what we can do to help the men missionaries, help these people become members, and then they're just going to not come in six months or whatever it is.

Shannon Lamb [01:32:36] And so I just, early on, felt like we just need to focus on people who have already kind of committed to the church and aren't coming for whatever reason, and the people who are coming. And so that was kind of a thing where I'm like, gee, it's just us, huh? Like, we're the ones running the ship, you know? And then it's like you pulled back the curse, and the curtain was. It was just us, us people, you know, knuckleheads who were just trying to do the best we could. And so that was like, the first thing where I'm like, hmm, I don't know about this.

Shannon Lamb [01:33:07] And what year was this? I got called in the end of 2012, so it was beginning of 2013. And I really. When I took the calling, I was like, you know what? I am going to pray morning and night. I'm going to get better at reading my scriptures. Because, you know, we have that. That idea that, you know, if you weren't so good at things, if you really want God's help, you have to start doing all the things so that you can get all of God's, like, help, you know, to do your calling. And so I started doing all of those things, and for a while, I really thrived in it.

Shannon Lamb [01:33:41] Like, yeah, I mean, like, really made these great connections with the women. And to this day, that's. I mean, just the connections I made with those women who are awesome. I just love that I had that experience, because I did get to know a lot of them very deeply. When you find out what people are struggling with, that facade that we all kind of see at church goes away, and you're like, wow, these women are, you know, suffering with a lot of different challenges. And it was just wonderful to connect in that way and to just, like, mourn with those who mourn, you know?

Early Doubts and the Book of Abraham

Shannon Lamb [01:34:11] But then it just started really weighing on me. And I remember I was talking with my ex husband, and we were just laying in bed, and I don't even know how it came up, but he was talking about the Papyra. The Papyra.

John Dehlin [01:34:29] Book of Abraham.

Shannon Lamb [01:34:29] The Book of Abraham? Yeah. And he was like, well, you know, they found it. And I was. Because I was like, no, I thought they never found it. And, you know, I was, like, vague on church history stuff. You know, I knew some, but not a lot. And he's like, oh, yeah, they did. And I'm like, really? And I'm like, well, what did it say? And he's like, oh, yeah. It was just a standard funerary text. It was nothing to do. There's not even any similarities, nothing whatsoever to do with what is actually written in our Book of Abraham. And I was like, what? Like, it blew me away.

Shannon Lamb [01:35:04] And I still remember I was laying in bed, but it felt like I was falling because I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, what if the church isn't true? And it was like the weirdest feeling. It was just like I was falling.

Shannon Lamb [01:35:22] And I was like, okay, nope, I'm not going there. So I was like, I shut that door really quickly because I'm like, no, no, no. I can't question if the church is true or not. The church is true. That's all I had ever known. And so I'm like, nope, nope, I'm not going there. I'm gonna put that on my shelf. So I shut that door really quickly and just was like, well, I don't have time to worry about that anyway. I have too many other things to do. And so I put it on my shelf and kind of was like, I am not gonna worry about this.

Shannon Lamb [01:35:50] I'm just gonna do the thing, put my head down and move forward. So I did that for a while until I just. I just hit a wall. And I think I was just burned out from everything I was doing.

Shannon Lamb [01:36:05] Didn't feel I had the support I needed to be successful in both work and in my calling. And it got to the point where I literally. It was just like, I could feel, like, the life draining out of me. Like, the spiritual life draining out of me. And I woke up one day, and I'm like, I cannot say another prayer.

Shannon Lamb [01:36:26] I cannot read another line of scripture. It was just like, nope, I'm done. And I didn't even know what was happening. You know what I mean? I was just like, wow, this is weird. But I knew I needed to be released.

John Dehlin [01:36:39] But how long into your Calling as Relief Society president. Did this happen?

Shannon Lamb [01:36:43] It was about two years in.

John Dehlin [01:36:45] Two years in.

Shannon Lamb [01:36:45] It was about two years. The thing where my ex had told me about the Book of Abraham was probably a little over a year in. And I just was like, I can't worry about that. But again, I think when you become a leader somewhat high up, you start to see all the problematic things of the church that you didn't see before.

John Dehlin [01:37:08] How the sausage gets made.

Shannon Lamb [01:37:09] Yeah, exactly. And so you're like, well, this doesn't seem right. Or not even that. It doesn't seem right. But it's like, isn't there a better way to do this? Like, is this really the best that God could come up with is that we're going to do it this way? And as someone who likes, like, solutions and doing things efficiently, it just. So much of it didn't seem efficient or even just to make sense. And so.

Shannon Lamb [01:37:32] So for me, I was just like. I think I was just done. Like, it was like my body was still trying to, like, do the things, you know, or maybe my. My mind was still trying to do it, you know, because I'm still teaching. Teaching Relief Society and, you know, encouraging other women to do their visiting teaching and like. Like all these things. And I think my body was like, nope, we are not gonna do this anymore. And so I was just like, I can't. And my spouse at the time was pretty good. Like, I was like, I can't go to church. Like.

Shannon Lamb [01:38:03] And I did still go to church, but there were weeks where I'm like, I just can't go today. And we were a family that we went every week. Like, church was not optional for us. And so that I was not going just here and there. I still went mostly, but I was just trying to figure myself out. And thankfully, they. A little over two years in, they had wanted to call him my ex as the seminary teacher. And that was my out. Cause I was like. And they do this now. They don't think that two spouses should have. Each should have big callings. So I knew that him being called as a seminary teacher would be my out and that I could be like, well, I'm gonna have to be released.

Shannon Lamb [01:38:43] Cause it's not gonna work to have, you know, him be the seminary teacher and me be the Relief Society president. So that was, like, my easy exit out. And so I was released. And then, you know, they wanted me to train the new Release Society president. And I was just so checked out. She and I talked about it later. She's like, yeah, I didn't. Couldn't quite tell where you were at with things. And I was just. Yeah, I was just like. Because I didn't even know exactly what was happening with me. I just knew I did not want to go to church anymore or. Or I was still going to church, but I didn't wanna read scriptures and I could not say another prayer.

John Dehlin [01:39:16] And so when your husband was reading about the book of Abraham, was he having his own faith crisis and just not telling you, or did he just happen to stumble on the gospel topics essay on the book of Abraham or something in between?

Shannon Lamb [01:39:30] So funny enough, like late. So this was like late 90s, Internet's barely starting up. He was into studying the deep doctrine. So he knew the Adam God theory. I knew about the Adam God theory in like 19. And he had talked to.

Shannon Lamb [01:39:47] Oh, I can't remember all the names, but did you ever learn about like the Dream Mine? And like we went to the Dream Mine and walked through it when. Before it was closed off. And so he, I think, kind of considered himself like a deep doctrine guy who was looking into all this stuff before you really could even find. I mean, it's, you know, it's the click of a button now, but it wasn't then. And he and his friend kind of did a deep dive.

Shannon Lamb [01:40:09] My belief is he's never said, but my belief is he probably had a faith crisis years and years, like right when we were first married and just never spoke of it because he's a different personality than me. Like, I'm a. Like all or nothing. Like, you do exactly what you say and like. And he's more like a can go with the flow type of person. Like, meh, that's fine if it's not true or not, you know.

Shannon Lamb [01:40:33] And so I think he probably was just like, meh, well, I don't know. There's problems here, but I'm not going to worry about. Is interesting though that to the extent that he never spoke to me about them, you know, but he still would talk about some of the deep doctrine or kind of unusual things.

Shannon Lamb [01:40:51] And he knew a lot about it and he studied it for years and years and I think he just got tired of it and I think he just kind of like left it alone. And this was what he decided to do in his life. And this is all what I think he's never said, you know.

John Dehlin [01:41:06] But to this day, y' all haven't discussed his faith journey per se.

Shannon Lamb [01:41:10] He is one where he doesn't want to talk about himself. You Know what I mean? Like, if you talk with him, you would think he believes exactly as you believe, because he will kind of. You know what I mean? And so, like, he just doesn't. And maybe it's not even important to him. You know what I mean? I don't know. I know now he's less interested in the church, but that's just an evolution of many things that have happened. But. Yeah, so it is one of the

John Dehlin [01:41:41] strange hallmarks of Mormonism or probably high demand religions where sometimes married couples, sometimes as a married partner, the most important things you're supposed to talk with with the most important person in your life, you never do. And that's not rare. That's actually probably more common than rare in a Mormon context, because you're both supposed to be on the train and there's not supposed to be any looking left or looking right or reconsidering the path. So all the big elephants in the room just get ignored. Yeah, I think for a lot of people.

Shannon Lamb [01:42:17] Well, and I think for us, I think this is common where, like, if we ever went to the temple, it was always because I scheduled for us to go, and I was, you know, trying to do family home evening, and I was the one pushing.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:29] You were the engine.

Shannon Lamb [01:42:31] Yeah, yeah. And he was fine. I mean, he wasn't opposed to it, but I think, you know, I think for him it was maybe less important. And I think it was like, well, this is. This is what all my extended family does. This Shannon clearly believes. And so I think. And I think also it is a personality thing where, like, he was fine with it. Like, he's more easygoing, whereas I'm like, no, you know, like, I'm like, it's not black or white, but, like, just all in. Yeah, all in. Like, if I don't believe it, I'm not gonna do it, you know, type of thing.

Shannon Lamb [01:42:59] And so I just think it's a difference in personality there. And, you know, and he was fine to kind of allow me to explore, you know, what was going on, but I didn't do a whole lot. So after I first had this feeling of, like, I can't do anything I can't do anymore, he kind of just let me, like, he just kind of gave me my space and, you know, I was released, so I didn't have to worry about it. And I just sat and, like, just. I don't know, just.

Shannon Lamb [01:43:31] I think I was just numb, really. I think I was numb from everything I was doing to try to build my business and, you know, to be the Relief Society president and the challenges that were actively happening in my marriage. And I was just like, dang, I just need a break from this. So I would still go to church, but I wasn't doing anything. I wasn't praying, I wasn't doing any of this stuff. And that all kind of changed in November of 2015. Okay, so.

Proposition 8 and Its Impact on Faith

John Dehlin [01:43:58] Oh, that's the church's November pulse. Should we back up to Prop 8 before we talk about the.

Shannon Lamb [01:44:03] Oh, yes, I forgot about Prop 8.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] Tell your Prop 8 story and then you can tell us about the. Because November, I'm assuming you're going to talk about the. The church's exclusion policy for LGBT people in reaction to same sex marriage being legalized in the United States.

Shannon Lamb [01:44:17] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] All right, so tell your Prop 8 story first.

Shannon Lamb [01:44:19] Yeah, so that was such an interesting thing. We had just moved to. I'm from California, but we had moved back there for my husband's work and just going to church, life was good. And they get up one Sunday and they go, okay, you know, there's this Prop 8 thing and we would like you guys to participate. And we didn't, you know, know anything about what it was. And, you know, we really want to make sure that marriage stays between a man and a woman. So I think the first thing they requested from us was to donate.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] And at the time, same sex marriage was legal in California in 2008. So the church was trying to take it away, you know, combined with Catholics and evangelicals. But the Mormon Church was trying to take same sex marriage away from Californians.

Shannon Lamb [01:45:05] Was it legal? I'm trying to think.

John Dehlin [01:45:07] That's how I remember it. If I'm wrong, someone can correct me.

Shannon Lamb [01:45:09] I don't know. It's funny because I can't remember if it was or not, because they had the night initiative that also happened in California in like 99 or something. So I thought it was that they had successfully not allowed them to get married and they were continuing on that push. So let me know if that's correct or not. But, you know, but here, I mean, I'm in the middle of having kids. I just had my fourth kid, so I had.

Shannon Lamb [01:45:31] I had four kids, five and under, you know, so I'm just worried about being a mom and not too worried about a whole lot else. But they announced that they want us to donate. And as we're driving home from church that day, my husband was like, so what do you think about that? Like, how much do you want to donate? And I remember going, I don't want to donate anything. I don't care if gay people get married. Like, I may believe it's not right for me or what, you know, we believe, but I don't want to, like, intrude on their life at all. You know, I want to let them, you know, live and let live.

Shannon Lamb [01:46:02] Right. But after that, every week they had somebody mention something about Prop 8 at the pulpit. And it went from donating to maybe making phone calls to putting signs in your yard to knocking doors even. And then the big one was on the weekends, on Saturdays, holding up signs yes on eight signs on the street corners as people drove by.

Shannon Lamb [01:46:33] And I went from going, hey, I don't care. I don't want to impose on their life to going, well, heck, if we're hearing this week in and week out, this must be what God wants. God really wants this to, you know, gay people to not get married. And so I literally went from not caring to holding a yes on 8 sign up on street corners every weekend until the election.

Shannon Lamb [01:46:58] This was the election. When Obama won, I couldn't. I knew who was it at the time, the Republican wasn't gonna win, but McCain I think it was. And I knew that race was lost. I was so invested in yes on 8 passing because I through enough indoctrination and that I think indoctrination is a big thing. We're all indoctrinated and we don't realize it, but the indoctrination was so strong that this is what God wants, that I literally did a 1 inch from what my, like, inner moral compass was telling me to do, to what this man who I thought spoke for God was telling me that what God wanted.

Shannon Lamb [01:47:38] So to me that later on ended up being the biggest lesson that like, I will never abdicate my moral responsibility to choose what I feel is right or wrong to somebody else because. And it is, it can be scary to think about that, that I did such an extreme change. Not just like, okay, well, I believe it and I'm gonna check, you know, when I vote to holding up signs with my kids on street corners while people drove by.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:07] Yes, you surprised yourself.

Shannon Lamb [01:48:08] Yeah. Really? Because I wouldn't even wanna hold street signs for anything. You know what I mean? But when you end up believing so much in the cause, you'll do whatever. And I think again, like I said previously, and when you think God wants you to do that, oh, you really will. You really will turn what you thought in your head was right and wrong. And that's where I think wrong can become right. And right can become wrong when you think, well, this is what God wants, so I guess I'm gonna do it, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:38] Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Shannon Lamb [01:48:40] But at the time, so, you know, so we moved from California to Virginia and I was still hot off the, you know, Prop 8, like. Cause we won. It passed. Like, so God rewarded us, right, for our hard work. So, yes, on eight passed.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:56] And by the way, the years that I have on those, when I Googled was 2008 for Prop 8, 2013, for when gay marriage was legalized in California.

Shannon Lamb [01:49:09] Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we just thought we were carrying on the work of God. And it was. I mean, I felt bad for the gay people, you know, but again, as so many other people were, in my or my view at the time, they were other. So, you know, they were not me. They were, you know, these people who weren't doing what God wanted. And so. But it is interesting that my natural inclination was to let them be and let them live life and that it was my religion that turned me to, you know, really trying to stop them from, you know, having the same thing that all the rest of us get to have.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:48] That's right. And I do think it's really interesting when we've made decisions that are kind of against our inner, let's just say values, inner sense of, like, what we would have. We can reflect on that and see what comes up in our brain to allow us to harm people. Like, what goes on in our brain to justify. And I think that's an interesting part of, like, getting to know our brains, our psychology, ourselves.

Shannon Lamb [01:50:17] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:18] Is to really, in a data way, say, how did I justify that, really?

Shannon Lamb [01:50:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:24] Taking away basic, you know, from other people.

Shannon Lamb [01:50:27] Yeah, well. And like. But God's such an easy answer. You know what I mean? It's like, well, if God said to do it, I mean, how can I argue with that? Like, and I could even say. And probably my narrative at the time was, yeah, I wasn't on board. But then I realized that this is what God wants. You know what I mean? So it was like. Like the complete opposite thing of probably what God would have ever wanted me to do. I did, supposedly in his name.

John Dehlin [01:50:50] You know, there's this quote, and this is maybe an extreme quote for the situation, but maybe not. You know, those who can be convinced to believe absurdities can be convinced to perform atrocities. You know, it's that kind of thing. Just for those who are history nerds, Wikipedia says that. That California first issued marriage licenses to same sex couples. June 16, 2008, as a result of the Supreme Court of California allowing them. And then Prop 8 was enacted in November 5th of 2008. And that's when they took them away. So there was several months and that's why where Californians were allowed to get same sex married before the Mormon church and other churches intervened to take it away. So it was a taking away.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:38] It was a taking away of the legalization of sexuality. Now that I remember it. Weren't we seeing pictures in the newspaper of people getting married?

Shannon Lamb [01:51:45] Yeah, but I think that, I think them getting married that was in response to Prop 8 trying to be passed. Yes, because Prop 8 was like months and months and months long, like leading up to the November election. I mean, it really consumed our lives. We put the yes on eight signs up in our. Again, things like I wouldn't even do for anything, you know what I mean? Like for any other cause or anything. I was doing all these things again because God wanted it.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:10] Yeah, thank you for that. That was key.

John Dehlin [01:52:12] Yeah. So you learned to quiet, or at least that was a moment where you quieted your conscience to perform obedience. So fast Forwarding now to 2015, 15 year Relief Society President. Things were not going well.

Shannon Lamb [01:52:29] Yeah, I had been released and I just kind of sat and like, I was just, I was just burned out, you know, So I just really didn't do a whole lot of anything. And I was just very quiet at church because I'm like, I don't know where I stand with everything.

Shannon Lamb [01:52:42] And then the exclusion policy came out in November 2015 that did not allow children of gay couples or if one of them was in a, in a same sex marriage to get baptized if one of their parents was in a same sex relationship or same sex married. I guess it was. And so that was the moment where I was like, huh, Like, I don't know that I really know what my religion teaches or believes. Right. Because I remember talking with family members and one of the family members was like.

Shannon Lamb [01:53:17] Because there was kind of an uproar about it by many members who were not happy with that policy. And I remember a family member kind of going, well, I just want to ask them, have they prayed about it to know if it's the right thing or not? Because, you know, this came from, you know, a prophet of God. And I remember thinking, huh, Like I have not looked very deeply into our history or into what has happened behind the scenes with our religion. I probably need to do that. And so.

Shannon Lamb [01:53:46] And that was a big step because we are so conditioned to not look at anything outside the prescribed church. You know, approved books, videos, you know, anything podcasts. You are not just even thinking that you would read that. I remember felt like a betrayed. Like I was doing something bad by even reading somebody who might be.

Shannon Lamb [01:54:10] Who might disagree. And I mean, it was like I started reading like Jana Reese, who's like, still like a full time member, you know, but she was today in 2024. Yeah, yeah. And just few people who were pretty mild, but it felt like apostasy, you

Margi Dehlin [01:54:27] know what I mean?

Shannon Lamb [01:54:27] Like, I'm like, oh my gosh, what am I doing? But I felt like I had to know for myself. And the, you know, the dominoes quickly started tumbling down and it was weird. I've talked to various people about how their faith transition has been. For me, I'm like, okay. I mean, had a problem with polygamy since the beginning, as most women do. So that was like, well, Joseph was off on that. And you know, blacks in the priesthood. Mm. Problematic. And you know, women not receiving the priesthood. I don't know about that. You know, so there's all these things where I'm like, this was probably not right. Or he messed up there.

John Dehlin [01:55:04] Whatever shelf items we call them.

Shannon Lamb [01:55:07] Yes, yes. And I was fine, going well. Well, they probably didn't do the best, you know, make the best choices there. Messed up there. But I could not look into the Book of Mormon. There was something in my brain where I was just like, the Book of Mormon is. If the Book of Mormon is not true, none of it's true. Well, I mean, we're taught that, right?

John Dehlin [01:55:30] Like, if it's the keystone of our religion.

Shannon Lamb [01:55:31] Yeah. Like if the Book of Mormon is not true, none of it's true. And man, that must have been happening. Hammered into my head. So I really, really just stayed away from trying to investigate anything about that. Although it's all over the place, right? Like all the Necronisms and I mean, just the endless problems in there in that book. And I just tried to. I think I was like, you know, I wanted to, you know, have my cake and eat it too. Have my Mormonism and eat it too. Where I was just like, I wanted there to be these problems, but I still wanted to be true in a certain extent and to a certain extent.

Encountering the CES Letter and Faith Crisis

Shannon Lamb [01:56:00] And if. If the Book of Mormon wasn't true, it was kind of gonna all be over for me. So I still was hanging on, starting to read things. I'm trying to remember the name of the guy. Oh, he's so good.

Shannon Lamb [01:56:14] He left the church. He's like, oh, Thomas McConkie. I listened to him. I'm like, oh, this is like, you know, I could do Mormonism differently. It's still true. I'm just gonna look at it a little bit differently. And then I was talking to my brother because two of my brothers had started having concerns with the church as well, and we were starting to talk about it a little bit, and I was talking to my one brother, and he's like, well, he mentioned something. He's like, you know, the CES letter? And I'm like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. And he's like, you haven't read the CES letter?

Shannon Lamb [01:56:46] Because I was already, like, months into, like, learning about this thing and that thing. And I'm like, no. And he said, well, he's like, I'm not telling you to go read it, but you probably should go read it, you know? And so I stayed up that night reading it, and it was just like. I mean, I just, like, deflated, like, with each page that I read, because I was kind of, like, doing a little thing here, a little thing there, like, all over the place, finding problems. But I'm like, well, I can deal with that. Well, I can deal with that. Da, da, da. But when all of those problems are, like, put into one document in one spot, and you're reading through all of them, you're just like, oh, this is not good.

Shannon Lamb [01:57:26] And I still remember a friend came over the next day after I read it, and I was, like, so depressed. And she's like, well, what's going on? It wasn't a member or anything. And I'm like, I just found out my church is not true, you know, And I'm sure she didn't understand what that meant or anything, but I was, like, full on depressed because it was just like, oh, my gosh, like. Like this whole thing that I've given my life to, this. I mean, I served a mission, you know, my kids are all in, you know, like, we've gone every week. I callings, tithing, you know, everything.

Shannon Lamb [01:58:00] And it was just so. It was just so depressing. And so I, again, I was like, well, I gotta do something. You know, it's just my personality, right? Like, this is not right. I know these things are problems, you know, we gotta do something. And so very quickly, I started speaking out about it at church, which maybe wasn't the best idea, but, like, there was a time where they would allow in Relief Society at the end of Relief Society every.

Shannon Lamb [01:58:31] On the. On the first Sunday, on fast Sunday, they would allow, you know, a few extra minutes to do testimonies if you didn't feel comfortable giving it in sacrament meeting, that the women could go up. Probably at least two different times I went up to give my testimony about how I, like, no longer believed. And I mean, I was like.

Shannon Lamb [01:58:51] I just said I was struggling with these things and it was challenging for me, and I'm trying to find my way. So I wasn't like, attacking anybody, but I clearly was like, we gotta do something here. Like, that was like. The first thought is like, like, we gotta do something.

Shannon Lamb [01:59:08] And so, of course, what I quickly learned is many members, and I think they're getting better, but many members have no idea what to do when you have hit a faith crisis. Like, they're just at a loss, you know. And so my lovely stake president at the time had. We were gonna have a big state conference, and L. Whitney Clayton was coming in to be the speaker. And he scheduled my stake president scheduled for me to meet with El. He's like, do you want to meet with him and he'll talk with you? And I'm like, okay, you know, sure. You know, And I thought. I didn't know what my expectation was for. I knew that their expectation was that he would help me, you know,

Margi Dehlin [01:59:58] But

Shannon Lamb [01:59:58] I'm like, you know, it might be good for him to see where I'm at with things and stuff. So we spoke about it, and I started out the meeting telling him how I just got so burned out that I couldn't read another scripture. I couldn't say a prayer, you know, and so that was in the story.

Shannon Lamb [02:00:12] And so we talk about different things. And he was great, you know, he listened. And at the end he said, well, this is what I would like you to do. I would like you to read your scriptures for at least 30 minutes every day. And I'm like, He's like, and I know you said you couldn't read another scripture. He's like, but this is what I would like you to do. And I want you to pray morning and night.

Shannon Lamb [02:00:37] And I'm just like, what? Like, I'm telling you, these are the very things that I can't do anymore. Like, I'm just so burned out. And like, I said, he remembered that I said that, but that was his solution. And I was just like, wow. Like, it just made me think, you don't have. You don't have anything for me. And.

Shannon Lamb [02:00:58] And at the end, he says, you know, when I travel to these different places. I'm always like, trying to figure out what I'm here for and what I should be doing. And you know, I was coming here for this state conference and I didn't know what it was. He's like, but now I know why I was supposed to come here so that I could talk to you. And I said, yeah, I'm glad you were able to come and learn a little bit what it's like for people like me in this experience.

Shannon Lamb [02:01:26] And I realized, I'm like, he thinks he's coming to help me and that he's gonna give me some sort of solution to help fix my problem. And it was so clear to me that he was not coming with a, like, curious mind as to, gee, what has this been like for Shannon? What can I learn from her experience? It was that he was coming here to fix and solve.

Shannon Lamb [02:01:49] And again, I feel like it's the same when we were talking about our mission. We're not going, you know, we weren't going there to learn about them or like, you know, see what they could teach us. We were going there to teach them. And it was just so clear to me. And again, I'm not saying this to like dog on him in any sense, but when you are, you know, an apostle or a 70, you, you have the mindset that you're there to help them to, to put them on the right path. And I think there can be the tendency to not be like, like, what do I need to learn from this person?

John Dehlin [02:02:21] And yeah, can I just interject a tiny thing? So my understanding is M. Russell Ballard, who recently passed away, Mormon apostle M. Russell Ballard and L. Whitney Clayton. First of all, El Whitney Clayton was a high powered attorney in Southern California. I think Laguna beach, but I'm not totally sure.

Shannon Lamb [02:02:42] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] Yeah, super high powered Mormon attorney. Then he teams up with Ballard. I'm Russell Ballard. They were behind Prop 8 very significantly in California. So there was a tie with Clayton and Prop 8, which you may not have known.

Shannon Lamb [02:03:00] I did not know that.

John Dehlin [02:03:01] But then my understanding is it was Ballard and L. Whitney Clayton that excommunicate Kelly in 2014, but also at the same time came to my stake in North Logan in the 2013, 2014 time frame. They were the ones that put me on the bubble as one of the enemies of the church. They were the ones that released my stake president. They were the ones that called a new stake president into my stake and ultimately led my excommunication as well. And I'm only Bringing that up because it's stunning to me that they were on the, the forefront of persecuting gay people and or critics of the church, causing the faith crisis of tens of thousands of Mormons over a multi year period.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] But they never stopped to actually listen and learn what was causing people, me, Kate, others to leave. It's as if, like you said, they were just, just there to do a job, but weren't there to ever learn or listen to anything. It's kind of a hubris and

Margi Dehlin [02:04:16] sort

John Dehlin [02:04:16] of a overconfidence and zealous, you know, got a job to do, sort of that. That is really mind numbing that by 2016, 2017, all he's got for you, Al Whitney Clayton, after all this carnage of causing tens of thousands of more to leave the church, all he's got for you is pray and read your scriptures.

Shannon Lamb [02:04:40] Yeah, he learned nothing.

John Dehlin [02:04:42] They learned nothing.

Shannon Lamb [02:04:44] That was truly the most shocking thing, especially when my very hangup was that I didn't feel like I could pray or read the scriptures. And so I was just like, wow, you guys really have nothing to offer other than those two things. And those two things don't work for a lot of people. And so it.

Shannon Lamb [02:05:03] And again, I was so thankful to my stake president. He, you know, was just trying to provide me any support he can. But that was also the big, you know, gaping hole I saw in our church is that there's nobody in leadership that knows how to deal with what I am experiencing.

Shannon Lamb [02:05:20] And it's very apparent not only do they not know how to deal with it, it's almost like the plague for them. Like, almost like they're going to catch it. Not like they're going to catch it. I just feel like it's almost like. Well, all I know is that the church is true and that I feel good when I do this and I don't know how to deal with people who don't feel good or have problems with it. And so there is no place. And so that's what I was quickly realizing was that there's no place for me. Like there is not a spot that the church has carved out for people like me.

Shannon Lamb [02:05:53] It's like they're not even trying to keep us in, I feel like, you know, and I guess I would say they're not trying to keep us in because. And I think this is changing, but I think that they only want us in if we say the right things and do the right things and act in a certain way.

Shannon Lamb [02:06:13] So that was. Yeah, that was definitely kind of Depressing to meet with him because I thought, oh, we're gonna have, like a good back and forth. You know, I thought we would maybe even talk a little bit bit more about some of the problems with the church. And I very early on did not want to focus on historical things because I'm like, we could argue about that till the cows come home, right? But I'm just like, let's just change the things that are problems right now in the church. Like, I don't even care about Joseph and his polygamy at this point, but, like, that we don't have a place for gay people right now to feel comfortable and be married in our church.

Shannon Lamb [02:06:52] That we don't talk about things like mental health, that we don't, you know, have a place for people who feel that they are not. They don't fit the mold. We just don't have spaces for all these problematic things in the church, Women's issues, women in the priesthood. I mean, there's just so many things where we just don't address it, you know, it's like, it's just all these elephants. Elephants in the room that we're just not going to talk about, you know, And. And that just wasn't going to work for me because I like to talk about stuff. So.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] So. So he, El Whitney Clayton, left thinking he had, like, solved your problem and that God had sent him there to solve your problem. You left your meeting with El Whitney Clayton feeling what?

Shannon Lamb [02:07:37] Just that I. I felt that he was definitely out of touch with somebody like me and that I really was shocked at how little he had to offer. There wasn't even like, I'm like, hey, give me even a little bit of a nuance in your thinking about some of these things. But it was just like, nope, this is the solution. These are the two things you need to do. And then testified that he knew that would help me. And I'm just like, wow. I'm like, wow, this is more dire than I thought. You know what I mean? I'm like, if one of the highest ups, you know, this is what he's telling me. There's problems.

John Dehlin [02:08:13] You know, chances are most of the Mormon apostles are the same or worse. They just. They know it's true. They're super busy. They never have taken the time to actually read a book or learn about it. And so they're. They're pretty much probably all as ignorant or more ignorant than L. Whitney Clayton, I'm guessing.

Shannon Lamb [02:08:32] Well, and what I have realized is, is he saying that? Because that's what's worked for him. So all the leaders that are, you know, my bishop and my stake president and the seven, you know, moving the stake, you know, the area presidency, you end up calling all the people where reading your scriptures and praying has always worked for them. So you never get into leadership positions. Anyone who's like, wait, that doesn't fill my cup. Spiritually, like reading, reading the scripture, reading what happened thousands of years ago that I don't even understand all the language for, like, that doesn't fill me.

Shannon Lamb [02:09:07] We don't have those people in leadership. So the people giving the talks, the people at the stake conferences, they're all repeating the same thing because it's the same few people. And it may be not few. It may be lots of people that that works for. But very early on, I just had to say, that doesn't work for me. And it's okay. I'm not doing something wrong. If reading the scriptures doesn't do it for me spiritually, doesn't make me want to be a better person, doesn't inspire me to be more Christlike, you know, And I feel like that's one of the biggest problems is we have allowed what the leaders feel, what works for the leader spiritually, to be what should work for everybody instead of going, hey, we all do our spirituality differently, and we don't all feel the same about this.

Shannon Lamb [02:09:51] But I think that's been the biggest challenge, is you have to say that these are the prescribed and right ways to do it. And I decided, I'm gonna be over here raising my hand, going up. Actually, for me, that doesn't work for me. That's not something that has filled my cup and it finally allowed me to be free to say, actually, almost my whole life, I haven't loved reading the scriptures. Even on my mission, I was like, okay, I'm gonna open these up.

Shannon Lamb [02:10:16] But we're often not free to say how we really feel at church. We just have to do the things that all the leaders have said are the things that will be the solutions for us. Even if we know as grown adults that these are not working for us, we still try to do them and act as if, oh, well, this is the way. So we got to do it this way, you know?

John Dehlin [02:10:34] So, okay, so what'd you do? How'd you respond to that? So it's 2016 at this point.

Creating a Study Group and Nuanced Belief

Shannon Lamb [02:10:42] Yes, 2016. I decided, well, we gotta have a class. We gotta have a third hour. We were still having third hour at the time. We gotta have a third hour. You Know. Cause they would have, like, these little marriage classes, which, again, I always thought were, like, not helpful at all.

Shannon Lamb [02:10:58] Or, you know, gospel essentials. You know, we'd have all these other, like, little side classes that you could do if you didn't want to go to, like, the direct, like, gospel doctrine class. And so I went to my bishop and stake president, who were both of my ward, and I said, I would really like to start a class where we can talk about, like, some of the historical issues of the church or just some of these things that I didn't know about or that I think people don't know about or maybe have questions about.

Shannon Lamb [02:11:22] And maybe unsurprisingly, that was a big fat no. Like, it was like. I think there was a lot of concern as to, like, well, what would we talk about? Is it gonna veer off into anti stuff? And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna start a little class, a little gathering. I think I did it, like, once every couple weeks, and I just had it at my house.

John Dehlin [02:11:45] And it's called a study group in Mormonism.

Shannon Lamb [02:11:49] Yeah, a study group.

John Dehlin [02:11:50] Let me ask you a question, if it's okay. So had you decided the church wasn't true at this point, or were you just trying to do the nuanced believing thing where church is still true? I'm just trying to make sense of all this stuff, which is how I started Mormon's Story. Well, no, it's not totally, but I mean, with this eye of optimism that maybe if enough people talked about it, they could figure out a way to stay. That was how I started Mormon Stories. I didn't believe it was true, but I still thought maybe we could talk through this and figure something out.

Shannon Lamb [02:12:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:21] What was it for you? Why did you just leave the church?

Shannon Lamb [02:12:24] Yeah, I think I was probably along the same lines as yous. I'm like, well, it's not perfect. It's not true in the traditional sense, but there's goodness there. And having had been the Relief Society president and. And worked so closely with these women and really some of the other leaders as well. Like, I was super close with the bishop that I had served with. I'm like, these are good people, and if I leave, I just leave them there to deal with the stuff, you know, and, you know, some are going to always stay blind to it, but some are going to inevitably have a similar experience as I've had.

Shannon Lamb [02:12:59] And so I just felt like one. I didn't want to leave this group. These were all my friends. I mean, we had Been there for, like, what, 10 years by that point, or, like, six or seven. And I had made good friends. And I was just like, I shouldn't have to give this up if I don't want to. And I kind of. I think I wanted to make sense of what was happening to me. And I am a very open book. And so, like, hence the reason I, like, got up and gave a testimony about how I'm struggling with belief. And I just felt like, we need to talk about this.

Shannon Lamb [02:13:30] This. Like, if I'm experiencing this, you guys all have to, like, deal with it, too. And, yeah, it's like, I'm like, we need to talk about this because I'm having problems, and so I'm going to make you all kind of engage. And I knew there were other people having, like, our really good friends. The husband was. Was in this. I found out when I was released, society president that he no longer believed. And it was like, you know, it was like, that was the worst thing ever. And it was like, how was their marriage going to be? This was me as more of a believing person where it was like, it was the end of the world if you no longer had literal belief in the church.

Shannon Lamb [02:14:03] And then, so to have myself experiencing it, I'm like, okay, we gotta. We gotta solve this thing, right? Because I, you know, have questions, I have concerns, and I think things can change. I think they should change. But I want, you know, you guys to all be here with me to do it.

John Dehlin [02:14:18] You're all going through it with me.

Shannon Lamb [02:14:19] I'm like, let's do this.

John Dehlin [02:14:19] If I'm going through it, you're going through it.

Shannon Lamb [02:14:21] I feel like you're. You're similar, right? I mean, you started a podcast and you're like. And you said you had no literal belief by then.

John Dehlin [02:14:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had lost our literal faith by 2001. Started the podcast in 2005. But, like you, we're like, this is a good place to raise kids. It's our community. It's our tradition. There's a way that we can make this work, and we're all going to do it together.

Shannon Lamb [02:14:42] Yes, we're all in this together.

John Dehlin [02:14:45] So when you were trying to figure out this out, you had lost all your literal faith, is that right?

Shannon Lamb [02:14:52] Mostly.

John Dehlin [02:14:53] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:53] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [02:14:56] I think I was just trying to make sense of everything, but I had read the CES letter, so I was like, yeah, this is the problem.

John Dehlin [02:15:02] So maybe there's divinity here, but it's certainly not the one true church. Is that kind of.

Shannon Lamb [02:15:07] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:15:07] Okay.

Shannon Lamb [02:15:08] And so I'm like, to me, it was like all these elephants in the room, and I'm just like, we no longer have to defend and be weird around it. If we just go, yeah, polygamy, that was not right. That was a mistake. Like, wouldn't it be so much easier if we could acknowledge these problems and say they were wrong or misguided or maybe not what God wanted? And then we move on, and then we don't have people still making fun of us, attacking us or whatever for these things. We go, yep, bad choice there. Wasn't the best thing we could have done. We've learned from it, and we're gonna move on.

Shannon Lamb [02:15:38] You know, and. But that's, you know, that's not the way it works in Mormonism because we've been taught so early to say that we know and it is true, and it is the one and only. And. And that's where we get hung up. And. And so, you know, I can say this now, but looking back at the time when I started up that class at my house, I didn't know. I mean, I don't know. I was just like, what's going on? I need to talk about this. What are other people feeling? And I knew all the people in our ward who were having concerns. So I'm like, let's all gather together.

Shannon Lamb [02:16:07] Let's talk about this. And for whatever reason, my bent was to stay. I don't know why. I'm not totally sure why it wasn't to just leave. But the funny thing is I'm trying to gather these other people that aren't believing, and they're like, yeah, I want to peace out.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:22] You know what I mean?

Shannon Lamb [02:16:23] So, like, the class itself didn't last very long because I really didn't have the support of the leadership. They were afraid of it. They were afraid of me.

John Dehlin [02:16:32] You know, something you may or may not know, history wise, is that in the 80s and 90s, around September 6th time, and around, like, peak Sunstone time in the 80s, there was also underground movements of fundamentalism, of people doing temple ceremonies outside the temple, or polygamous marriages amongst mainstream Mormons, all this kind of prepper, Ezra Taft Benson kind of fundamentalist Mormonism that was happening in the 80s and 90s, the Mormon Church actually denounced study groups as being taboo. And so when you say study groups, immediately in my mind, I go back to the 80s and 90s, and I'm like, those are forbidden.

Shannon Lamb [02:17:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:15] So I. I have a guess for how this. I have an idea of how this might have Ended. But, Margi, were you going to say something?

Margi Dehlin [02:17:23] I was just thinking of Leah and Cody Young. They didn't have a study group, did they?

John Dehlin [02:17:27] That's different. No, that was a support group.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:28] A support group. I knew there was a support group that was problematic, but yours was a study group.

Shannon Lamb [02:17:33] Well, and it was. I don't know what I was doing, to be honest. I mean, I was just grabbing for anything. And I think the leaders were like, well, what are you doing? And I'm like, I don't know. Let's just talk about this. But that is very scary to them because even though you're trying to say, well, this happened in our history, it is right here. They don't want to talk about it because even speaking about these things that were problematic feels like betrayal, like a lack of loyalty to the church. And so I understand why they were like, well, what are you gonna do with this, Shannon?

Shannon Lamb [02:18:03] And I'm like, I don't know, but let's just meet. And it ended. Not because they shut it down. It ended because I didn't have. Like, no one wanted to be where I am. Even the people I was doing it for that were also having questions and concerns. They all ended up like, they don't come to church at all. You know what I mean? And so they weren't trying to, like, stay and make it work. They were like, no, I don't believe. And like, good luck to you, Shannon.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] But, you know, because historical issues are like viruses. They spread. And so if members get together and start talking about polygamy and peep stones and Book of Abraham and polyandry and DNA in the Book of Mormon and anachronisms, a huge percentage of those are going to leave. I just Googled this just for people's sense of geekery history. This is from the Mormon Church, LDS Church, Handbook of Instructions 2001. And I don't know how far back it goes before then, but it says church members should not participate in groups that challenge religious and moral values, imitate sacred rites or ceremonies, meet late into the evening or in the early morning hours. We strongly counsel against affiliation with any such group. And this is paraphrased, so there's probably other parts of the statement. Anyway, enough of that. So how many months did you do the study group?

Shannon Lamb [02:19:24] It was only a couple months. And then I just stopped it because I was like, well, here I am alone. I was the only one wanting to do this. And so I was like, I guess that won't happen anymore.

John Dehlin [02:19:37] And that's why I Asked you if you thought about leaving the church, because most people that start going down this road, they just leave.

Shannon Lamb [02:19:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:43] They'll stick around and say, maybe I'll stay. Right.

Shannon Lamb [02:19:46] Well, so the interesting thing you said, like, the virus type idea, I think that happens maybe not like, DNA and like, all the, like, deeper, like, anachronisms of the Book of Mormon, but certainly around polygamy and certainly around, like, blacks in the priesthood, because most members already are, like, I don't know about that. You know, they already have those little doubts in the back of their head that they already have maybe their mini shelf that they've put that on. Right. And so they're not. And I think another big one coming up is actually lb, LGBTQ issues.

Shannon Lamb [02:20:14] And so they already are, like, I don't know about that, but I know the church is true. Right. And so I. So I think the church would really like to avoid talking about those things because they bring up. Yeah, it's like, one thing leads to another, and then you read about this and you read about that, and so I see why it's concerning for the church to be like, no, let's not talk about those things, you know, and that very. And again, I think that is changing. But that very much was the case, you know. You know, eight, nine years ago. And so I just stopped doing that.

Shannon Lamb [02:20:42] And in the meantime, I found an amazing Facebook page, Waters of Mormon. It's the best. Like, it is the best, like, secret. I don't know if I'm even supposed to speak of it, but, like, I've. I've guided so many of my friends to that Facebook page. And it is for people who have problems with the church, but who are. And I know there's a whole, like, story behind it.

John Dehlin [02:21:06] Used to be, I started it, it was called the Thoughtful Faith.

Shannon Lamb [02:21:09] Thoughtful Faith, Yes.

John Dehlin [02:21:10] And then when I got excommunicated, long story short, they kicked me out of the group and renamed it.

Shannon Lamb [02:21:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I liked a Thoughtful Faith better. But anyway, Waters of Mormon is great, but what I will tell you is the people that are running that, like, it is the most.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] Julie Renshaw.

Shannon Lamb [02:21:25] Oh, she is amazing. Yeah. Bishop Jer Lee is what we used to call her. My friend showed me that group, and it was a lifesaver. I was drowning and I didn't even realize it. It was like. Yeah, I had nobody to talk to. I was trying to do my own little things. Just kind of like, just like, you know, gasping for air and getting on that Facebook page and reading that. There was all these Other people that were experiencing. Exactly. What I was experiencing was just like. I was like, oh, my gosh, I can breathe now. And the thing I love about that page is you can criticize the church, but you have to, like, be thoughtful about it.

Shannon Lamb [02:22:10] That's why I loved, you know, a thoughtful faith is. And it was for people who were trying to make it work. And I didn't know that that was gonna be a me at the time, but I really liked that they weren't there to bash it. It. They weren't there to just criticize, just to be like, well, it's horrible. It was like, but what can we do? Like, how can we make it better? And it. In all realms, that Facebook page has shaped me so much, like, in political views and listening to people who believe differently than me.

Shannon Lamb [02:22:40] It's just an amazing little corner of the Internet that I, like, recommend to everybody, and I've recommended to a lot of my friends because it was interesting when I first was having my faith crisis and being kind of open about it. I wouldn't say I was shunned, but I was like. People were like, oh, let me scoot back from her. So I went from having all this social capital in my ward because I was the race society president, you know, five kids, you know, doing all the things, and to, ooh, let me maybe stay away from her a little bit. And so.

Shannon Lamb [02:23:14] So it's interesting that I've been in it a long enough time now to where the people who were like, oh, I don't know about Shannon are now the people that I'm, like, inviting to join the Waters of Mormon Facebook page and are having their own questions.

Shannon Lamb [02:23:29] And so that also has been really satisfying because I was appreciative of the people who reached out to me and were like, hey, try this out, or check this out. And who kind of guided me to some safe spaces while I was trying to figure out what the heck was going on. And I have a friend now who's in. She's in a pretty high calling right now, and she is actively experiencing a faith crisis, and she's trying to find her way. And because, again, the church does not provide resources, I'm like, okay, read this. Try this Facebook page. There's this, this, and there's a lot.

Shannon Lamb [02:24:07] And it's. It's all of us members now just kind of springing up to be like, okay, there's this thing. We can help you here. Kind of like, I almost feel like it's like the underground railroad for, like, people in Mormonism who are having like a faith crisis. And, and, and I think there's tons of beauty in that. Just helping somebody through as we were helped through. I mean, sounds like you guys were not helped through. You were like the og there's right, like nobody out there, you know, but. And there wasn't a ton for me kind of being on the east coast and there wasn't a ton of people, but I found my way.

Shannon Lamb [02:24:37] And I really enjoy talking to other people because they're just experiencing what I experienced, whatever, like nine, ten years ago. And they may end up where I am and they may not, and it's all fine, you know what I mean? So I'm always like, you can believe as I do or not. You can stay committed and still believe most of it, or you can decide you don't believe any of it. Like I am good wherever you end up at. I just want to give you space to explore the things that you're having concerns about. Because I didn't. Like, there was not space made for me.

Building Community for Questioning Members

Shannon Lamb [02:25:10] And in fact, even a family member said, well, if you don't believe it, why don't you just leave? And I'm like, well, why do I have to leave? Like, why do I have to. If I don't fully. If I'm not all in, why do I have to go? And is that what you really want? Like is, does the Church of Jesus Christ really want that? Like, if I don't know about some things that I should just get out of here, you know?

Shannon Lamb [02:25:36] And I've realized that that's like, it's a knee jerk reaction to protect something that they hold dear. So I don't. So it was when it was hurt, it was hurtful at the time that it was being said to me because I'm like, I'm like, I can't stay, like if it's all or nothing. Which of course makes sense because we're very black and white in the church. And it was hurtful at the time, but now it doesn't bother me because it's like that's the thinking that they were. That was like fed to them at birth, you know, is the thinking that was fed to me at birth.

Shannon Lamb [02:26:04] And so I don't get too upset at people who kind of have that knee jerk reaction to defend the thing that they love. And that's all they're doing. I'm sure, you know, even as this family member loves me dearly, it was a knee jerk reaction of her to try to defend the thing that it seemed That I was attacking and protect, to protect it.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:26] Because just like John was saying, I think it can be viewed as sort of a virus. It can spread if we allow people that, you know, know things.

Shannon Lamb [02:26:33] Yes, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:35] In our midst. So you were talking about resources for a minute. Can, can we go there? And so you mentioned Waters of Mormon. And so if someone comes to you or you actually, let me ask this. Are you a resource? Like, are you identifiable in your area as someone that people can turn to or would turn to you because they know.

Shannon Lamb [02:26:57] Yeah, I think certainly in my stake, because, oh, see, I. I'm. I'm like now remembering all the things I started. I started my own little Facebook page where we could talk. And I think this is even before I maybe found Waters of Mormon, where I was like, let's just talk. Talk about it. I'm just like, let's talk about it. Let's get in, let's dig in. And so it was really funny. I had a few brave souls who joined and they did not want to talk about any of these things. I mean, because it was like active members, you know, and I had a few people who weren't.

Shannon Lamb [02:27:22] And it didn't end super well because there was like, disagree again. It was people who were wanting to protect. And I was like, no, let's get out and talk about this. And so I started up a Facebook page myself that didn't last very long.

Shannon Lamb [02:27:36] We had local Waters of Mormon meetups. So I had a couple of those at my house. That's where I met Dave Ostler, who is Richard Osler's brother, who wrote the Bridges book. And so, yeah, I just wanted a place where, like, people could show up and be Mormon however they wanted to Mormon. And even if that meant that they're never going to come back to church, but they were still welcome to be a part of my group anyway and what I wanted to make Mormonism. And so I do feel probably in my stake, I'm known somewhat as being definitely nuanced and non traditional.

Shannon Lamb [02:28:10] I do feel like it's limited and it was probably known, at least originally more in my ward because they divided our wards and I got put into a different ward. And I think they didn't know all the ways I advocated and all the things I had done. And so.

Shannon Lamb [02:28:26] So they ended up calling me into the Young Women's Presidency, which was fabulous. And we can talk about that. We can maybe go back to the resources first. But you accepted that calling? Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:37] As Young Women's president.

Shannon Lamb [02:28:38] No, no, no. Presidency no, just the secretary. Young women's secretary.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:42] Oh, nice.

Shannon Lamb [02:28:43] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:44] So supporting.

Shannon Lamb [02:28:46] Yeah. And that ended up being. So they divided our wards, and they just carved out our little neighborhood and put it in a different ward, and they removed us from the ward we had been in for, like, 12 years or something. And I was. We were, like, so upset. My kids were unhappy, and we were not happy to join this new ward, but turned out it was, like, the best thing ever, because this ward was definitely more. Not.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:09] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [02:29:10] More nuanced than the ward I had come from. And people were kind of doing their own things. There was some. There was a few people that had LGBTQ kids, and there was just more openness about that. And I went up and gave my testimony about just being. I can't even remember what it was just like accepting people, not casting stones and being stone. I think it was like the stone catchers instead of stone throwers. And. Oh, actually, you know what it was? It was. One of the talks was on the book Just Mercy years ago, Brian Stevenson.

John Dehlin [02:29:47] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [02:29:48] And I had read that book. It was like, George Floyd stuff had been happening, and that had been a big shift in me that happened kind of secondarily after my faith transition of like, gee, as a white person, I'm like, what the heck is going on? I was just clueless, oblivious to all of that. And that was kind of happening at the time. And so someone mentioned Bryan Stevenson. And then I had just read the book, and I went up and said, you know, how much I was unaware of what it was like for people outside of my, you know, my small little bubble and how I've learned so much from learning that it's not the same for all of us.

Shannon Lamb [02:30:23] And the most important thing that, you know, God wants from us is to love and accept others and to lift them up. And so I think it was that. That testimony that I gave that kind of put me on the radar. And then I gave a talk about. And then they asked me to give a talk, and I gave a talk about how Heavenly Mother. And that was well received. And so then I got called into the cause. Our release. Our young woman's president is a total rock star, has a gay daughter and an adopted black son. And so she was aware of all the potential issues, and so she flagged me to be the secretary.

Shannon Lamb [02:31:02] And it ended up being, like, a really awesome experience because, you know, we met for a presidency meeting, and they were talking about these things called council togethers that they do now at the beginning of each lesson, and they'll have a little prompt of like, you know, what's the best? You know, what inspires you to pray or like, what helped you have more faith? And those questions to me are just like nothing burgers, you know, they're just so bland. They're just so like, like you've heard them too many times because you've grown up in the church that they, they just mean nothing. They're, they're almost like meaningless.

Shannon Lamb [02:31:39] Like, they don't really encourage deep conversation. And so we were meeting as a, as a new presidency and I was kind of looking at this and I'm like, you know, these council together questions, I feel like the youth, like these, these young women, they don't care about this stuff. Like, they're like, hey, am I going to pass my class? And my friend was mean to me and my brother's a jerk and like, I don't get along with him and like, I don't even know if the church is true or what, you know, and, and so we talked about how we could switch this council together to where instead of just following the prompts that were in the manual, that we could talk about what the girls would want to talk about and that could be anything.

Shannon Lamb [02:32:16] And so it first started out with me, like going, oh, let's talk about friendship groups and how that can be challenging or whatever. And, and then I quickly realized that I'm like, well, I don't know what it's like to be a teenager, a teenage girl right now. And so I decided that I really wanted to hear from these girls. And I knew like one was, had, was had self harm issues, some LGBTQ stuff there. You know, I knew there were issues that we probably had, knew nothing about.

Shannon Lamb [02:32:44] So I, so one Sunday I said, okay, you know, I sat down with the girls and I said, you know, when we come to church, a lot of times we come with our, our mask on, our happy mask where all is good. We don't talk about the bad things that are happening in our lives. We don't talk about maybe the depression we're experiencing or the friend that stopped talking to us or how we feel inadequate or, you know, we just smile and put on our happy face at church and we only tell like the happy, you know, faith promoting stories where things went well and all ended with a, you know, tied up in a nice bow, right?

Shannon Lamb [02:33:18] I said, but I want you guys, you ladies to know that this is a place where you can take off that mask and you can be your authentic self and we can discuss the Things that are really going on in your life, the things that you have challenges with, the things that have been good, bad, the things where you found success and where you're really struggling. And I said, you know, I want you to feel that this is the place where you can talk about it. Cause we are here for you. And, and we want this to be a place where you actually feel you leave here and you take something from it.

Shannon Lamb [02:33:52] So I had a jar and I had pieces of paper and I said, you know, this can be completely anonymous and I just want you to write down anything you have questions about, positive, negative. It can be that you really found the scripture to be awesome and let's talk about that. Or it can be like, hey, what's going on with like blacks in the priesthood or whatever. I didn't give examples, but I said it could be anything. And. And they did. And oh, those girls had questions, all right. And the first round that we did it, you know, there was a few questions and like mental health and things like that.

Shannon Lamb [02:34:22] But the second round, they, you know, no holds barred at that point. And they were asking some really challenging questions and we addressed a lot of them and we didn't try to have the answers for them and we didn't try to tie it up and say, oh, no, you know, blacks didn't have the priesthood for all this time, but it was okay. You know, it was like, yeah, that was a problem and it was probably a mistake on leaders part. But what can we learn from it? Like, what do we know now that we can do better and not make those, you know, mistakes again?

Shannon Lamb [02:34:55] And it was all. And it was wonderful because. And this is what I feel like the church would be perfect at is we had our presidency was like, me as a pretty much non believer, although I didn't express that the president was like, nuance. And we had a couple that were like totally believing all in and we all made space for each other. So like, those council togethers were the best because we had mine, who was like, I'm like, well, I don't know about this to like, you know, the nuanced divide. Oh, I know it's true, but there's our problems to like, hey, it's great for me, you know, and it was like everybody felt welcomed, everybody felt included.

Shannon Lamb [02:35:30] And it really served to. To bring at least the young women together because we had all been moved into this new ward. And so it was like we were trying to like, connect and we talked about some really deep stuff. And to me, I was like, this is what church should be, where we talk about the issues that are really impacting our lives. Not like, well, something that happened a thousand years ago or where you spend. A teacher will spend 10 minutes talking about what this word means or what it meant during that time period. And I'm like, I don't care. You know, like, what does this have to do with my everyday life?

Shannon Lamb [02:36:11] You know, I want to talk about the things that are impacting my life right now. And we kind of did that, like, on a, you know, smaller scale. And it was. It was great. I mean, it was such an awesome experience.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] That's amazing. Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [02:36:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:36:28] And when did that end? About what year?

Shannon Lamb [02:36:31] So did we do that for two years? So it was really interesting. They changed up our ward in the middle of COVID so, like, nobody was going. And they cut us out of the ward and put us in a different ward. And everybody was pretty unhappy about it, but. And it was weird because they made like four smaller wards from three bigger wards. And I don't know if I ever really understood the reasoning for that. There's like all these different reasons.

Shannon Lamb [02:36:56] And then what was it two and a half years later, I want to say they dissolved that fourth ward and just moved us back into the three wards. So I just ended up going back into the ward. Oh, interesting. I had been in previously. Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [02:37:11] Yeah. I don't know if they thought there was going to be growth or what. And it didn't happen. But they pushed it back down to the three kind of bigger ish wards. So I got released and am now back in the ward I was in before. But we did that for like two and a half years. And I feel like the. I mean, I will tell you, like. Oh, and at the time, one of our advisors had graduated from BYU and she was back, one of the visors in our presidency. And she. I don't think she was very open at the time, but she's gay.

Shannon Lamb [02:37:42] And so she had. And I believe it was known by the president when she called her son. So it was already little. Like. Like, to me, I'm like, this is what the church should be. You know what I mean? Like, just variation in belief, variation in where we're at in our lives, and that it's all okay that you can be fully believing and I cannot believe at all, and you can be nuanced and we can all still have really great, meaningful, meaty conversations and not this fluff of like. Well, when I read the scriptures, I know that I feel God's love You know, just these things that to me, for me just don't have a lot of meaning anymore because they've been tread and over tread so many times.

Women, Equality, and Ecclesiastical Challenges

John Dehlin [02:38:22] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:23] One thing that comes up I think sometimes for people is this ecclesiastical roulette. Is that what it's called? John?

John Dehlin [02:38:31] Yes. You've got the wrong bishop.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:33] Right. Have you experienced. It sounds like you've had a lot of positive experiences. Have you experienced? Experienced. I feel like it's just something that would stop, you know, be a barrier. Right. Is it the wrong bishop or a non supportive Relief Society president if you're in the presidency? Right, yeah. Have you experienced that yourself at all or has it been overwhelmingly supportive and positive?

Shannon Lamb [02:39:01] It has been mostly positive and I've been lucky in that. And I recognize that Mormonism has mostly still worked for me. So that's why it's been easy to stay right. Like, I don't have a kid who's gay. It still works for me on a lot of levels. So I understand those who are like, hey, I can't do this because it's too painful. But for me, I've had really great leaders. Even if they didn't understand, they tried so hard to just love me.

Shannon Lamb [02:39:33] And my last couple of bishops have been like, awesome. The other thing I would say is just from, you know, whenever it was like 2014, 2015, when I was first having questions, to now. So like in this 10 year period, a lot has changed in the church. Like whether they want to be or not, members are kind of being forced to be nuanced because they're a lot of it is their kids, their kids are going. And again, I feel like it's our generation. In fact, I feel like our generation is kind of caught in the middle between the older generation that's like, nope, we're not gonna talk about it.

Shannon Lamb [02:40:07] It's good, it's right, it's true. Move on. And the younger generation who's like, yeah, I'm not buying any of this, you know, and so. And we're like caught in the middle where we're like, well, they're still good in Mormonism and we can make this work. And they're like, you know, wanting to peace out already, you know, and oftentimes I feel like we're the bridge. And I feel like we are the forgotten generation in the church a little bit because they're so focused on the youth. And I kind of want to be like, you know, like even how they've switched it to now to like, I think like the bishop is the president of the Young men.

Shannon Lamb [02:40:39] And I mean, you can tell they're like, we gotta save our youth. And I'm like, you're not gonna save. The youth's parents are drowning. You are not going to save them if you have not provided something for their parents to hold onto. And my generation is, I mean, we are waking up and going, wait, what I was taught is not accurate, correct or true in a lot of instances. And if it's not that, we're going, oh, wow, I just found out my kid's gay and the church has no place for them. So while I love the church, I will not stand by and have my kid be treated as a second class citizen.

Shannon Lamb [02:41:13] And so these are the things that are making our generation go, wait a minute. And so I am super hopeful about the change that has already occurred. And I do think that more change will happen because it's like the church has to evolve and change or it's gonna die out, you know, there's gonna be no members left, you know, so I'm one of those ones that's like really hopeful about the changes that have occurred and that will occur in the future.

Shannon Lamb [02:41:44] But again, this is where I go back to. But if everybody leaves, who's there to make the change? Right? And you have the John Dehlins, you have the Kate Kelly's, you have the Sam Smith, like all the ones that do these really bold.

John Dehlin [02:41:58] You mean Sam Young or what did I say?

Shannon Lamb [02:41:59] Sam Smith? That's the singer. Yeah, Sam Young.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:02] It's like, huh,

Shannon Lamb [02:42:04] Sam Young. Who do these really bold make these bold statements that do affect change in the church? Ultimately that's never gonna be me, but I can do it at the ward level. And that's what I kind of came to as. I'm like, like at the ward level I can make change and I can speak out about how my experience is different than what the narrative that everybody wants everybody to be saying. And I feel like I'm just kind of like elbowing in and being like, nope, I'm not going anywhere. And I'm going to raise my hand and I'm going to say how my experience is different.

Shannon Lamb [02:42:40] Yeah, so a couple of the things that were hard at the beginning is I was like really pushing for change. You know how it's like when you first found out that something is not what you thought, you're like all fired up and you're like, no, everybody needs to know. And so I wrote to my bishop and stake president because my daughter was turning 8 and was gonna be baptized. And I wasn't pushing to baptize her or do anything like that. I just said, hey, just let me be the witch witness.

Shannon Lamb [02:43:11] And I had done all my research. There was an article where President Kimball had baptized somebody in a different country, and only his wife was there. So his wife was the witness. Like, I had sent all my research to my bishop and stake president at the time, and I said, so with that, I'd like to be a witness. And these were people I was friends with, both of them. And it was just a no. It was like, no, nope. And the bishop, I think, who is my friend, would have. He said he would have advocated or he tried to advocate for me. But I think the challenge of that is not always.

Shannon Lamb [02:43:45] But a lot of times in leadership, they're looking for people who are going to follow the rules, right? Kind of. Kind of be yes men a little bit. So if the handbook says that you have to have the priesthood to be a witness, they're not going to be obedient. They're going to be obedient. Right? Because again, God want that. They're thinking that's what God wants. So they can't change that, even though it's the handbook, even though it's like, not the Bible or anything.

Shannon Lamb [02:44:10] And so that was. Oh, I was so upset when. Because it wasn't even like, they're like, let me go higher up. Let me see if someone will let me look into this. There was no looking into it. There was nothing. It was just a no.

Shannon Lamb [02:44:22] And I was upset. And then what get what happened a year later? They allowed women and all the little kids to be witnesses. So for me, it was just like. And I remember people texting me, like, aren't you so happy? Like, now you can be a witness? And I'm like, no, I'm not happy, because why was I never allowed to be a witness to begin with? Why was this ever a thing? And the church makes these changes, these things. The temple was another big one when the temple changed the ceremony. But they make these changes and they want us women to just be like, yay, you're no longer keeping me from participating in the religious rites of passages of my kids.

Shannon Lamb [02:45:04] But then nobody ever answers the question, why was I excluded in the first place from being able to do these things? Why was I not allowed to do them in the first place? And so you want everybody to be cheering and celebrating, yet you never provide a reason for why you. You did not allow me to do this. And that's just not okay, I'm not gonna just be happy that I now can do something that you discriminated against all women from doing.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:33] Nor do you acknowledge the pain and suffering that actually came from the experiences that now are erased or replaced.

Shannon Lamb [02:45:45] And I feel like there's the feeling of, well, just be happy because you can do it now. And I'm like, yeah, I mean, I'm happy for all the moms who will now be able to be witnesses. But it doesn't replace the fact that after specifically asking, I was told no. And then they changed the policy a year later. You know, you're just like, come on. And this is like, we can do better. This is my thing. We can do better.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:10] So are you saying. So I kind of love this particular strain right now that we're going after things that are challenge about being you. Right. In the church. So what I hear is when you hit up against sometimes the nos or the inflexibility or the. Makes it really hard. Is that what you're saying?

Shannon Lamb [02:46:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:31] Makes the path feel much more effortful. What else is hard about it for you personally?

Shannon Lamb [02:46:38] You know, it's become a lot less hard because I've let go. I've let go of like. Like listening to conference. Well, I'm not gonna listen because they're gonna say something inevitably that's upsetting, you know, and so, like, I don't listen, as you know, to it. And I just. I think what I have done is just said, I am going to go and just contribute what I can contribute and have my own viewpoint. What I find hard now is all the. All the. And it's mostly women, there's men too, but who are really hurting over the inequality that still exists in our church.

Shannon Lamb [02:47:17] So, like, we just had this women's conference, you may have heard about it, where the leader and I offered to have. To have it viewed at my house. So all the women in my ward came over and we viewed this. So I was, you know, viewing it live, as she said, you know, she doesn't know of any other organization where women have more power and authority. And I'm just looking there. I mean, I'm just rolling my eyes going, I mean, so tone deaf, right? You know, and I'm just.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:47] But.

Shannon Lamb [02:47:47] But for me, I've. I've accepted that people are engaging with Mormonism where they are at. So of course, for her, I don't think she meant that as a slight or a slap in the face. She really believes that, you know, as the leader of the church, I don't Think she would be in that leadership position if she did not believe that.

Shannon Lamb [02:48:05] That she has all this power right now? Of course we're going. Oh, really? Oh, so I have all the power. Okay, so I can be bishop then. Oh, so I can pass the sacrament then? Oh, so I can baptize my kid? No, we don't have the power, but. So whereas for me, it was more of an eye roll, one of my friends, a couple of my friends who were going with it, they was just. They were very upset about it, like to the point of crying, because it's just. It's so frustrating to not to feel like your leaders do not understand, you know, and that maybe there isn't a place for you.

Shannon Lamb [02:48:35] Cause they can't even get that. We do not have, you know, equal. Equal, say, equal power in the church. We just don't. And I feel like I've come to a place where I know that that's what they're gonna do because they're active believing. Like, how much can I expect of them if I'm choosing to stay in there? Hey, this is their rodeo, right? Like, this is their show. And. And I'm saying I want to stay, but how much can I push back and expect them to meet me where I am, right? Because I'm staying in their space, even when they would almost rather have me leave.

Shannon Lamb [02:49:13] And so I have to kind of be not careful of what I say because I don't feel like I censor myself too much, but just be sensitive to that. They still believe these things in the way that they believe them. And I try to be respectful of that. And it also. I don't allow it to upset me. Right? It's just like that's their belief. And so. And I know I believe differently. And I understand why they believe that way because I was there. So that's like the biggest thing that I do is I tried to hold on really, really tightly to remembering what it was like for me as a tbm, as a true blue believing member, right?

Shannon Lamb [02:49:56] Like, I believed all these things too. So am I going to be like, oh, well, now I'm here and I know all this stuff, so you don't know what you're talking about, or am I going to have compassion and patience just as they have patience with me for where they're at? You know? You know, we arrive at a space and we go, oh, I'm here, so you should get this now. And that's just not the way life is. And so I feel like, yeah, I just allow for them, I know they're going to say things that I absolutely don't believe in. Right.

Shannon Lamb [02:50:29] But I think where I can find the common ground between what I believe in and what they believe in is where the magic happens, right. Of maybe somebody like me can stay and not only stay, but be in a young women's presidency, you know, and. And now, granted, if they had known the level of my disbelief, would they have called me? I don't know. But does it matter? I mean, now, like, we did such good in that presidency. I mean, just across the board, the young women said it, we loved it, we had great experiences. So this is kind of where I go, well, if you had known exactly how I believe, you maybe wouldn't have called me and we maybe wouldn't have had this really awesome experience with the youth, you know, because I don't fit the mold, you know, so it sounds

Strategies for Staying and Setting Expectations

Margi Dehlin [02:51:19] to me like a really delicate balance, because what I'm hearing on the one hand is almost like a strategy for you around letting go of expectations. Right. And then. But then on the other side also, sometimes challenging. Challenging authority or challenging, as you did with the Baptist, I'm trying to be a witness for. So tell me where the rub is. Tell me where you. Where it becomes something that actually you don't accept it and you push a little bit and you ask for the thing. Do you notice where those areas are for you?

Shannon Lamb [02:51:56] Yeah, yeah. I've become very, you know, outspoken. For me, it's the things that are impacting me in my daily life, and that is the inequality between men and women. Right. My daughter sees it very clearly. And so that's just something to. Where, you know, I will openly speak about it in a gentle way. I did early on. I was very just like, well, this is wrong and, you know, we need to do it differently. And I learned to be thankful, you know, thanks to, like, Waters of Mormon and other spaces where they were. They said things a little more gently. Right. And so I have learned to say it in a way that is palatable to.

Shannon Lamb [02:52:38] Where people won't completely discard it and they'll take it in. But I just. Things where people will say, well, no, this is just fine. Like, the women and, you know, have all the, you know, just as much power. I have no problem raising my hand and saying, but actually, that's not true, because if it were true, I would be able to baptize my child. If it were true, I would be up there as at least a counselor, if not a bishop. If it were true, I could bless and pass the sacrament. And so I kind of don't allow statements to be left. And usually it's like in Sunday School and maybe Relief Society, where someone could get the impression that this is just absolutely true.

Shannon Lamb [02:53:17] And I often preface it with my lived experience. Right. Like, you can feel differently, but my lived experience is this. And, like, do you want. Do you want my experience, or would you rather just not hear about it? Because it varies from what we all say, normally, what we repeat back to each other. You know what I mean? It's like we just come to church and we just repeat back to each other the same thing. So we go, oh, oh, you believe that, too? Yep. Oh, I believe the same. Yep. We are similar, and those people out there are other. And so I just. I'm just there to be like, hey, I'm here. I'm not leaving. And I don't believe the way that you guys believe. And is that okay? Is there still space for me?

Margi Dehlin [02:53:54] Yeah, a bit of a disruptor. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [02:53:57] On a small scale. Right. Because I, you know, I. And. And I think also it's hard when you leave. They can immediately discount you when you. When you stop coming, when now you're. You're. You're the.

John Dehlin [02:54:08] Not.

Shannon Lamb [02:54:08] Not the enemy, the adversary, you know, you're. You've fallen, you've lost your way.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:14] You.

Shannon Lamb [02:54:15] But if I'm still showing up every week, I'm, like, still here, still coming, still wanting to engage, you know, And.

John Dehlin [02:54:21] And

Shannon Lamb [02:54:24] the question always is, and is that, okay, is there space for me, or would you rather that I go away and never come back? And I think most people are like, no, they do want you to stay. I think they just have a hard time separating out what you're saying, which is conflicting with maybe some things they've been taught with. That we can believe differently and we can have different thoughts and.

Shannon Lamb [02:54:49] But I do think a lot of people in the church are getting there. I think the times are just requiring them to be more open, to be more accepting and to be okay with people not believing as they believe.

Shannon Lamb [02:55:04] You know, the big buzzword is the Covenant path, Right? Covenant path. Covenant. Like on the Covenant path. And I. How long has it been? Maybe I think it's been about seven years ago, seven or eight years ago, since I took off my garments and never went back to the temple.

Shannon Lamb [02:55:20] And so, by all measures, I am not on the Covenant path. Right. And they were talking about how you stay on the Covenant path and what you do to stay on the Covenant path and how The Covenant Path has brought you peace and joy. And I just raised my hand. I said, I just feel like I have to make a little space here for people like me who want to come and engage every church. But I am not on what you would call the Covenant Path. And, you know, I hope that. Yeah. And. But.

John Dehlin [02:55:48] But.

Shannon Lamb [02:55:48] But if. Who. If I wasn't going to say it, if someone who was going to say this, because I know there are people in that. In that meeting who are like, you know, whether they're feeling guilty about it or whether they're just like, yeah, I'm not doing this. And I. And I may be one foot out the door. You know, I just want people to know, like, there actually is this middle way that you could go if you want to, and you can find a lot of happiness. Like, I'm. I'm not staying because I feel pressure from family. I'm not staying because I feel guilt.

Shannon Lamb [02:56:16] I'm staying. Cause this is actually exactly where I want to be. And I know that's weird for people. I actually think I'm kind of unusual, and it is weird for people. But if you found joy and peace in any level in the church, if your good friends are in it, if you like. One of the things for me is my oldest son is still fully believing, served a mission, and he loves it. And you know what? I love going to church and sitting next to him in the pew and singing hymns and connecting with my friends. It's like, why can't we take from church whatever was good for us, whatever we liked about it?

Shannon Lamb [02:56:52] Why not? Like, you know, they talk. I know in the past it's been criticized that, you know, some people come to church just to socialize, and that's not what it's for. And I'm like, why not? Like, why can't church just be a place where I connect with my friends and hear the hard things that they've been going through or the really joyful, happy things that they've been. Like, why can't it be that? And so I think I'm here to just be like, no, it can be any way you want it to be.

Shannon Lamb [02:57:20] And I know it's hard for other people because, like, people. I mean, I will talk on and on, right? Like, I'm happy to speak, but other people are. Are very more guarded, would feel very exposed and vulnerable sharing these things. And so those people, I can see where it would be harder. Like, maybe you don't want to stay in because you're not going to raise your Hand like me and say I'm not on the covenant path, you know, but like, but I think even for people who are more reserved, who are more introverted, there can be a space if you want there to be. And if you don't, that's fine too.

Resources for Faith Transitions

Margi Dehlin [02:57:55] Can we get back to resources just for a minute? Some resources that you have found to be really helpful either to you or to friends or people that you've kind of, you know, helped along the way.

John Dehlin [02:58:06] Yeah, we've talked about the Waters of Mormon Facebook group, which is still active and strong. I highly recommend it. You talked about the Bridges book. We've had David Osler on Mormon stories. We'll have hopefully Julia or Maven put that in the show notes. That's a free. A phenomenal resource about how church leaders, Mormon church leaders should better treat doubting or questioning or non believing members. And I actually endorse it. I think it's a fantastic book and a fantastic resource. So what else?

Shannon Lamb [02:58:40] Yeah, so that book I gave to every leader in my ward and the Stake Presidency, because the book Bridges because is so well written and really like allows space for leaders to learn what they don't know. Like, I think the biggest challenge in the church right now is leaders have no training whatsoever on people who are going through a faith transition. But that's probably one of the biggest things that's hitting the church right now is people having faith transitions and they have no one teaching them anything about it. So how are they gonna, you know, how are they going to deal with it when they don't have any training on it?

Shannon Lamb [02:59:22] So, and you know, bishops have training on nothing. As I, you know, found out in that one on the bishops where I was like, wow, they don't get any training on anything. But I do think that the faith crisis, faith transition is a big enough thing happening to enough people that that really should be focused on. And I think Dave's book Bridges should be like required reading for like every leader.

Shannon Lamb [02:59:44] The other podcast that I really like is At Last She Said it, which was started by some of the mods from Waters of Mormon. And that is really good for me. I feel like my space is a little bit in women's issues, but again, only because I think if I had a gay child, I would be in that space too, a lot more. And I have friends who are in that. And so Papa Ostler is a great resource. If that's kind of the thing that is a challenge for you, navigating being a member of the church with a gay Child. And so what is his podcast?

Shannon Lamb [03:00:18] Listen, Learn, Love. His is really good as well. And a lot of mine are going to be podcasts for people who are trying to make Mormonism work. And I use that term very broadly because you don't have, you know, you don't have to believe in any traditional sense. I feel you can still take what Mormonism has given you and take what you want from it and still use that in your life. And you don't have to, you know, throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.

Shannon Lamb [03:00:48] So those are the main resources that I would recommend, I think, if you can find somebody, anybody to talk to, like, in your stake, in your ward, a family member. I have found, I've been surprised at family members who've decided that they're going to leave a church or whatever, or they have questions and they never reach out to me. I'm like, come on, you could talk to me. And I do feel like we have this sense of fear to talk about it. Fear of who to speak to, about. And there's kind of like this code of Mormonism of like, well, we're not going to talk about that.

Shannon Lamb [03:01:24] And I feel like I'm trying to break that silence and just be like, hey, we can talk about this, and whatever level of belief you're at is okay, and it's okay to talk about it. And I feel like, you know, I don't traditionally believe in Mormonism, but it almost doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter. It's so secondary. Because if you think about it, everything about belief and religion is all happening subjectively anyway, right? So, like, you and I may be talking about God, and you may be picturing a guy with white hair sitting on a throne in a white gown, and I may be picturing a black woman sitting in the forest who's, you know, in a.

Shannon Lamb [03:02:09] In a, you know, meditative position. You know, we don't know. And so everything of how we view God is so subjective that if you say God and I don't believe in. And I don't believe in any. In a traditional God at this point. Like, I. We don't believe in an anthropomorphic God who says, okay, you know, you're gonna magically be cured from your disease and you're gonna die in a tragic car accident and you're gonna get this job and you're not gonna get that. Like, I don't believe in that anymore. But do I believe in a higher presence? Yes. Do I believe in a God that Runs through us.

Shannon Lamb [03:02:41] Yes. And so if you believe differently, that doesn't matter, because the fact of the matter is neither of us know, neither of us have any real experience. So what does it matter if I view it slightly differently as long as whatever way I view it encourages me and inspires me to be the best person I can. That's why I love Jesus, because I don't believe that Jesus literally bled from every pore, died on the cross for our sins. Like, that story doesn't even make any sense to me when you, like, just kind of put a little bit of logic to it. However, I love the example of Jesus.

Shannon Lamb [03:03:17] I love his example to inspire me and to inspire others to be their best person. I absolutely love the example of unconditional and radical love that Jesus showed. And so it doesn't matter if I really believe that he bled from every pore. But what matters is his example to me, impacting my life and wanting to, you know, inspire me to be a better person.

Shannon Lamb [03:03:45] And I feel like we don't acknowledge that enough in our religion and probably many religions, because I was in a. It was a relief society. And the teacher kept talking about Jesus and all that Jesus is doing for us and all the things that Jesus does. And I know that Jesus loves me and Jesus helps me through this and that. And I'm, and I'm sitting there and I'm going, well, what is, like, according to our doctrine, what is Jesus even doing right now for us? Like, if you look at our doctrine like the Mormon doctrine, what is Jesus doing right now? What do we teach?

Shannon Lamb [03:04:21] Nothing. Like, we literally. There's nothing in our doctrine that says that he's there supporting us as we say our prayers or he is guiding us or he's giving us love. Like, we don't say that. But here you have all these women talking as if they're having the same experience about who they believe, believe Jesus to be, and it's just not the case. And so I think if we had a little more humility about that, that even if we all are believing the same thing, we are experiencing it very differently because it's all what's happening in our head, right? And I feel like just even accepting that would, I think, open people more up to be like, hey, oh, you don't necessarily believe that Jesus died on the cross.

Shannon Lamb [03:04:59] That's okay. Like, and I don't think Jesus would care either. Like, I feel like if I died tomorrow and went up to heaven and then there Jesus was and he's like, actually, I did Bleed from every pore. And this, you know, I did hang on the cross and all that. I'd be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know that. But I didn't believe that to be true. But I was trying to be the best person I can. I think he'd be like, no problem. You know what I mean? Like, the infinite, you know, being like, most kind, loving, generous, being of the universe is gonna be like, well, you did not believe in me.

Shannon Lamb [03:05:29] You know, I just. It just. We make God and Jesus Christ so small. And I think if we allowed for expansion in that area, we would be just fine with whoever wanted to join our ranks. We would be just fine with the belief that they have or don't have. And I feel like, you know, I speak Mormon fluently, and so even though I don't believe at the same level, I can speak in the terms that they understand. And it doesn't matter to me if I use my terms or their terms, because it's all the same. That makes sense. Like, it just doesn't even matter, you know, I don't know.

Shannon Lamb [03:06:03] And I know that would be very hard for most Mormon to be like, no, no, no, it does matter. God is a man. And to me, I'm just like, it just doesn't matter, you know?

Margi Dehlin [03:06:12] So, yeah, what I hear is kind of you're taking words that Mormonism initially defined for you, service or. And that you've kind of reclaimed them. Reclaimed them and redefined them for yourself. So while they're talking about service in their terms and you're aware of what it means because you grew up with that conditioning that at the same time, oftentimes you are allowing for a personal experience with your own rebuilding or reclaiming of what that thing is. Is that what you mean?

Shannon Lamb [03:06:48] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's a mindset, too, to be just like, they can have their beliefs and there's so much common ground. That is. What I wish we could see more is there is so much common ground, even if I don't believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet speaking for God. Because we focus on these things that are not the things anyway. The thing is to love and care for each other. That is. That is all there is in this life. Like, to love and to care for each other. That's all we're supposed to be doing. So all this other stuff of whether

Shannon Lamb [03:07:22] I cover my shoulders or whether I have three piercings in my ear or whether I read the scriptures every night or whether I Pray to, you know, to heavenly Father, to heavenly parents, to the divine feminine, whatever it is. It doesn't matter if all. If what I'm doing is actually inspiring me and encouraging me to be a better person.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:45] It also doesn't matter if you're not trying to go to the temple or if you're not trying to.

Shannon Lamb [03:07:50] Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:50] Where someone might have, like, Right. Then it gets a little bit murky or harder. Would you agree with that?

Shannon Lamb [03:07:57] 100%. And I don't want to go too far into, like, I have trouble with people who are like, no, it's all fine. It's good if you believe that, you know, and the church believes that too. And I'm like, no, no, no, they do. So I don't. I don't want to go too far into, like, oh, no, you can make it work and it's all fine. It has worked out for me. Yeah. It's your story scenario with. With very loving and pretty accepting leaders. Right. With a great ward with.

Shannon Lamb [03:08:24] Even though I lost a lot of social capital, I still had that from my previous callings. Right. Like, I was looked at as someone who had given a lot of time. So I have things that I know other people don't have, which may mean because they don't have those things, that the church is not the place for them, and that is totally fine. I think what I try to push into more is, could the church be a place where you could stay and not even forever? Like, I'm just saying, like, do you want to stay the next year or a couple years? Like, you could decide tomorrow that the church doesn't work for you, and that's fine.

Shannon Lamb [03:08:55] I am just kind of saying, I think there is enough overlap in what you do believe to where you could find or what you do want from, you know, those two hours of church on Sunday to where you might find that it's worth it to go?

Margi Dehlin [03:09:09] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [03:09:10] And if you feel like you want more of how you're experiencing spirituality to be included in that, you know, raise your hand and share it, you know, because chances are. So. There's been a few different times now where I raised my hand and just said, you know what? It took me a long time, but I realized that reading the scriptures does not do anything for me spiritually. Like, it just does not uplift me. It doesn't inspire me. And, you know, I'm always very kind of gentle how I say it, but I've said it a couple times in, like, Sunday school and Relief Society. And I'm telling you People come up after me and after, you know, after the class and they come up to me and they go, I've never really liked reading scriptures.

Shannon Lamb [03:09:49] And I'm like, why do we not feel free to say this in the very place that we go to that is supposed to be filling our spiritual cup? Why do we. And we're all grown adults and we don't even feel free to say, do you know what, Reading scriptures is not my thing. Like we don't even feel free to say that in the place we are going to be fulfilled spiritually.

Shannon Lamb [03:10:09] So I just think there's a lot of change that can happen and the people where the reading the scriptures is their thing, like continue, like continue to do that. It's just not for me. And can there be space for me to do something differently than you and have them still both be good and right?

Margi Dehlin [03:10:26] I have some questions too about like if you would describe strategies like that was one of the big questions associated, like if you could just get someone on who identifies as like pimo, like what are some strategies that you have identified as just being particularly helpful?

Shannon Lamb [03:10:45] I think finding like minded people is the number one because before I found that Waters of Mormon Facebook page, I didn't even realize how like underwater I was. It was like I could not breathe. And when I found it, it was like, it was like a big breath of air. Like, okay, I can do this. Because it can feel so isolating when you don't have anybody to basically just validate what you're experiencing and go, yep, yep, I did that too. Or I'm going through the same thing. So I think finding somebody and it doesn't even happen, have to be somebody in your ward. Early on I connected with somebody in my stake, but who was like, she lived like 25 minutes away and we had lunch a couple of times.

Shannon Lamb [03:11:26] I think just finding like minded people is the most important thing. Even if you don't read anything else, even if you don't, you know, find a Facebook page or whatever. But I would say that is the most important thing to do because then you can bounce your ideas out. You can be like, well, I'm knowing that. What are you going through? And well, I had this and, and I feel like it's through seeing other people's experience that you realize what will or will not work for you. And sometimes you don't know. Like when John was asking me about when I started that class, I'm like, I mean, I don't know what I was doing.

Shannon Lamb [03:11:58] I just knew I wanted Support. I wanted to talk about these things. And I think also being aware of kind of knowing your own personality, because I'm just kind of somebody who's like, well, if this is what needs to happen, I'm gonna make that happen. This is what we're gonna go do. And if you're not that way, it's going to be harder because I just made the thing. I'm like, let's meet up. You believe like I do. Let's talk about this. So if you're not that way, it can be harder, I think, because you're not rock the boat person. You're like, hey, I just rather sit in silence.

Shannon Lamb [03:12:32] But I'm like, dying on the inside. And so that. But if you can find even just one person to talk to, to me, that's the first strategy. And then you'll find things from there. You know what I mean?

Shannon Lamb [03:12:43] And you may find that, hey, Mormonism. And going every week is too painful for me. And if it is, stop going. I mean, that was like the first thing I. Before I even knew what was going on with me, I was just like, I gotta stop. I just. I cannot do this anymore. And so. So taking a break is not a problem. I think taking a break to reevaluate and be like, what do I believe? What do I think? What do I want to do? What do I don't want to do?

Shannon Lamb [03:13:11] There's no problem in doing that as well. On that Facebook page, so many times people would be like, don't tell your leaders where you're at. Don't tell them. And I'm like, I kind of run the other way. And again, you have to be able to trust. Right? It is leadership roulette. But I think leaders do need to know what we are experiencing. I think they do need to understand that where their congregation is at, you know, where their ward members are at, because ultimately they are called to minister to us. And as the church is evolving and changing, if we don't speak up and share that we're not feeling the same way as everybody else in that room, nobody will know.

Shannon Lamb [03:13:51] And if we don't speak up, up, the other person or two or three people in the room who also feel the same way will not. Will not know that in the end that in reality they aren't alone. Like, they only know that they aren't alone if somebody says something. And then that's how groups form like. Like friendships. I've just seen. It's happened so many times in my ward, and even as I transitioned Back to the two different wards where somebody made a comment. Right. Somebody made a comment in Sunday school or their talk that they gave and then somebody went up afterwards and talked to them.

Shannon Lamb [03:14:24] And these are the connections we should be making at church. We should be like learning from each other and going, oh, you're feeling that way too. And so it's hard because I would say a big part of it is being willing to say something out loud at church. And I know that may be like scary for a lot of people or they just may feel like they can't do it. So I understand the challenge of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:48] Yeah, yeah. Have you been in a sacrament meeting or a situation where, let's just say you're listening to a talk or. And it's feeling personally like triggering for you? Like do you have strategies that way around attending or meetings or making them feel more meaningful for you or anything that way? For people that, that may not naturally get fed from what they're hearing but could maybe still work with the structure. I mean, I'm trying to think of like a mixed faith marriage or where you're going for other reasons than you know that the talk is really going to meet you where you are. Do you have any experience or insight about what someone could do? I do.

Shannon Lamb [03:15:39] And I don't know if this is like the most, but I will say there may have been a time or two when someone was giving a talk. And again, the people that I connected with, who I knew, we were on the same page. We may or may not have been texting about it and how maybe it was painful or not ideal or hard or maybe we even spoke about it afterwards and just I think processing it because again, we want people to give space for us in our beliefs.

Shannon Lamb [03:16:08] And even though we find a lot of problems with Mormonism, we still have to be able to give that space to them and their belief that they still believe. So it can be challenging. But for me, what I've gotten to on talks that can be difficult are to just recognize that this person is just saying what they know to be true. They may even just be parroting what they've been taught their whole life. They may not even know themselves. They may even just be saying what they feel is the right thing to say. So. So I feel like if we give a lot of grace for the people giving the talks that are upsetting or frustrating, that's helpful.

Shannon Lamb [03:16:40] And then again, having those people that you can talk to that you know are on the same page where you can say, oh my gosh, that that lesson was just so, like, like, you know, harmful, hurtful to me was so like tone deaf, you know, whatever it is that you're experiencing, if you can share that with somebody, that is very helpful because you're feeling pain, you're experiencing hurt over what somebody has said. And if you can express it to, you know, somebody else who is like minded, it kind of lets, lets that pain go a little bit, you know. But what I would encourage anybody to do as well after that is and how can we help leadership or those who said it or whatever, see what can we say to them, how can we share with them so that they can see that that wasn't the most helpful thing.

Shannon Lamb [03:17:34] That that was that that whether excluded somebody or did not take into account difficult things in life, whatever it was, I think we are doing good for ourselves and for our church. If we decide to stay, if we figure out a way to not just, not just criticize, not just complain, not to say that really hurt me, but to also say, and how can we change it and how can we make it better?

Margi Dehlin [03:17:58] Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:01] This is so useful and I'm so excited that we're doing this. I kind of have a firing round of questions that I want to ask. Why are you laughing?

Margi Dehlin [03:18:11] Marty, I love your firing rounds. I feel like you did this a little bit with the bishop's panel. I just like it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:16] And some of it's going to ask you questions you've already answered, but that's because I like to sometimes release these as their own episode that don't require the hours before. So is it okay if we do a firing round?

Shannon Lamb [03:18:30] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [03:18:31] All right, Margaret, you can jump in. As long as they're firing around questions, is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [03:18:35] Absolutely.

Living as an Open Nonbeliever in the Ward

John Dehlin [03:18:36] Okay. Okay. So to begin with, you are currently attending a Virginia ward as an open non believing Mormon, is that right?

Shannon Lamb [03:18:50] Mostly. So like if, so like if people watch this, they will probably be maybe a little surprised at the level of non belief because I don't talk about it as much because again, for me it matters less. Like it matters less exactly what I believe and what I will say is what I love about where I'm at is my belief on all this can change tomorrow. So everything that I said to you today, I might feel differently tomorrow and I have all the space to change my mind about it. So. But yeah, more or less I am a non believing member and most people know it.

John Dehlin [03:19:24] And so you're. How many bishops have you had as a non believing Mormon?

Shannon Lamb [03:19:29] 1, 2, 3, 4, like, 5. 4, 5, 5. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:34] And so have you kind of had the, quote, the conversation with all five to say, hey, I know you're new. I just need you to know I don't literally believe this stuff.

Shannon Lamb [03:19:46] So I never say that. I don't literally believe. I say the things that I have problems with. Actually, we just got a new bishop called recently. He has always been in our ward, so I'm sure he's aware of some of the issues, but he does not know.

Shannon Lamb [03:20:03] I haven't sat down and had a conversation. The only conversation I just recently had with him was that one of his bishopric members has a wife with four young kids and she's pregnant with her fifth. And I was like, and so she's wrangling these kids every Sunday. And I'm like, why do we have to have three men sit up on the stand? I'm like, can they come and sit down?

Shannon Lamb [03:20:28] And one of the young women was coming to help her with her kids. And I'm like, why aren't the young men. Men coming to help? But anyway, so in the end, I said, well, because I've sent emails to bishops over the years about every. I mean, you know, from like, law, chastity to, like, wearing a tie and to pass the sacrament, which is, like, unneeded, and you know, to my, you know, my daughter getting baptized. And. And so when I was saw that this was a need where the. This poor mom was wrangling her four kids and pregnant with her fifth, and these three men were sitting up on the stand, I'm like, okay, time for another email.

Shannon Lamb [03:21:00] But I actually caught him in the hallway and spoke to him, and I just said, hey, you know, this sister so and so is here down, you know, trying to deal with her kids. Do we really need to have three men up there? And he was like, well, you know, I have to move the button to, like, turn up and down the podium. And I conduct. And I'm like, I think, I bet you could do that just on your own. I mean, surely it's harder for someone with four young kids and pregnant to be wrangling the them for an hour, you know, and so. And he's a great guy.

Shannon Lamb [03:21:28] And so he said, well, yeah, let me think about it. And next week, the husband was sitting with the wife down in the pews. And so I feel like I have not spoken to him, but I'm sure he is aware of where I'm at with a lot of things and was super great to make that change, like, immediately. You Know, so. But as for my bishops, they all know to one extent or another as to my lack of belief, but I don't overtly say I don't believe any of it. So.

John Dehlin [03:21:59] Okay. Yeah, okay. Because that would be probably a really important thing for survival, I guess, if you're going around saying, none of this is true, the truth claims are false, Joseph Smith was a fraud, that's probably not gonna work out.

Shannon Lamb [03:22:13] Yeah, well. And because I do want to participate, like, I've held callings. I. I like. It's. Yeah. It's just not needed to be said. And I feel like I can still fulfill callings and be at the belief level that I'm at without, you know, saying, I don't believe that or I don't believe this. So.

John Dehlin [03:22:30] Okay. Okay. So I remember trying this when Margi and I moved to Logan in 2004, we were in the exact same boat, and we were trying to do the exact same things. Clever, creative lessons to teach factual history, advocate for marginalized communities, have a nuanced conversations with bishops. Like, we did all that, but there were definitely ward members who were agitated by that and who reported us to the bishop on numerous occasions, including us losing colleagues or. Or even being investigated. Have you been able to avoid all of that so far?

Shannon Lamb [03:23:14] I have. And do you know what I think the big difference is? Is you were doing this in, like, 2003, 2004, 2005, or whenever, and I'm doing this in 2020. Well, I mean, it started in 2016, but, like. And even then, it was hard. Right? And I remember being asked to pray, and I said, okay, but I'm gonna pray to our heavenly parents. Is that okay? And they said, no, thank you.

Shannon Lamb [03:23:35] But now I say, you know, I'm asked to pray, and I pray to our heavenly parents, and I'm thanked afterwards for my prayer. So it's just a. I think it's a difference in, you know, in the time in our culture right now to where there was no space, I think, for you guys to be doing the thing, just really, probably very similar things that I'm doing right now, but it just was not gonna be tolerated. And Even in the 10 years that I've been in this, I've seen a big change in what is tolerated now. And again, I think half of that is people like us who are like, well, wait a second, there are some challenges, and we need to be more open.

Shannon Lamb [03:24:13] And I think half of that is, like, really, the church is not going to survive if they don't change. And so, for me, I absolutely believe that women will have the priesthood. It's not even doctrinal that women don't have the priesthood. It's not even in our doctrine why women would not have the priesthood. So that's one. And I think LGBTQ people will be able to get married in the temple, and maybe that's overly optimistic, but I just think the church is going to be required to change because our generation is seeing our kids specifically like our LGBTQ kids, and we're going, they should have everything that I was able to have, and it's not gonna be okay if they don't.

Shannon Lamb [03:24:52] So I feel like the church has to change, and they didn't have to yet when you guys were trying to do all this stuff. And there weren't as many people that were aware either. You know, it's just lack of awareness. And I think more and more people are aware even of, like, the borderline issues.

Shannon Lamb [03:25:08] So even if it's like, some of the basic ones, they're like, okay, there's some problems here. And so they are giving more space to people like me. And I'm not openly. Like, I care probably a lot less about the historical things. When I was first going through it, I. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, the Kinderhook plates and, you know, the. You know, the Book of Abraham and all the anachronisms. And I've listened to, like, so many of your podcasts about that that were, like, hugely enlightening. But for me, if I'm going, how are we gonna move the church forward today in a positive light?

Shannon Lamb [03:25:39] Like, talking about the historical things just don't. They don't matter as much right now for. Cause there's so many things now we need to change. We should try to change without having to worry about, you know, mistakes of the past.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:51] So I was just going to say really quick. I would have to imagine, for our situation in Logan, Utah, being in not only Utah, but also the area we were in in Utah had to play some type of role in our experience that might have been different had we been, let's just say, in the D.C. area or in California or.

Shannon Lamb [03:26:17] Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, and it's funny because everybody has different experiences. Like, my friend was up in New Jersey, and she was like. She thought it was, like, way more liberal there than what she thought. Our area was kind of conservative. But I feel like. I mean, the two wards, I kind of went back and forth between both great wards. I mean, just really good people. And so that has Been hugely helpful. Like, people that are. Are truly trying to be Christlike. And if we get down to it, like, that's why it's worth sticking around for me, because it's not even the church. It's like, whatever about the church. It's the people. It's the people that are still there, and I want to still be there. I want to be there with them, you know, because they're my friends, they're my family, you know, so. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:27:03] Okay. So in terms of why you do it, what I heard. Heard you say previously is to, well, you like to go with your kid, who still goes. You like the community. You don't feel like you should have to choose. And you like the songs, and you feel like when you're there, you can advocate for other people that may have issues or problems. What did I leave out? Are those all true? And what did I leave out?

Shannon Lamb [03:27:32] Well, and also just share my. My experience with spirituality. My experience, not even religion, just, like, how I am going about this life trying to be Christlike. And I have no problem talking about Christ, even though I shared my view of him, because he is such an amazing example. And so I just kind of want to be there, to be like. And this has been my experience, and I know it's different, but I like to talk about these things like this. This is the stuff of life, you know, as we are making our way and just trying to figure out, we're all just kind of.

Shannon Lamb [03:28:06] We all see through a glass darkly, all of us. Right? We're all just trying to, like, claw our way through and figure out what, you know, how to be the best people we can. And I think it's always better when there's diversity in that. And I think the church has really suffered from the echo chamber that we've all been in as we go to church. Like, it just leaves out so many voices and so many experiences. And so I'm there to be like, okay, little bit of a different experience. And all the other things you said, too.

John Dehlin [03:28:36] At your core, though, is it edifying to you? Is it rewarding to you? Does it fill your spiritual needs, your community needs, your friendship needs? Or is it more sacrifice, like medicine or service? If there's a pipe chart, fulfills me, meets my needs versus, like, it's work to help others. What's the pie chart distribution?

Shannon Lamb [03:29:02] So I feel like. I mean, I don't even want to do a percentage because who knows on percentages, but, like, a good portion of it is. It's, for me, like, it truly is, because this is what I want. And, you know, is it hard when you kind of brush up against, you know, people who don't understand or who would judge you yet?

Shannon Lamb [03:29:22] But, I mean, I like it to the extent where I have a couple of kids who don't exactly want to, you know, these are the kids that are still at home with me that don't exactly want to attend church. And I've had a hard time with that because I'm like, okay, as a non believer, I'm gonna make you go to church with me. You know.

Shannon Lamb [03:29:44] But what I also don't like is I'm like, well, I don't want you to stay at home and be on your device for two more hours. You know why? While you could at least be, you know, being at church. And so what I've kind of done for them is I've said, you don't have to go to church, but I would like you to come with me. And I think there is a way that we can give and be a part of, even though we don't believe the same. And I said, you can stay home from church, but if you stay home from church, you have to do something for our family.

Shannon Lamb [03:30:11] You have to cook dinner that day. You have to, you know, go clean the unfinished area, do something that helps our family. Because we go to church as a family. This is what we do, and we interact with our friends and the people that are here. And so that is how I've kind of navigated that little thing with kids who probably aren't really believing either and don't really want to go. But I'm trying to have them catch my vision that there's good to be had and them being there and sharing their experience, as well as youth who don't believe in necessarily a traditional sense of sense is also.

Shannon Lamb [03:30:44] It's. It's. It is helpful. It helps us all. You know what I mean? When. When everybody can share their experience, especially when it is not the same. That is how we learn and grow the most. So.

John Dehlin [03:30:54] Okay. Okay. So I mean. And clearly you're doing it because it works for you, right?

Shannon Lamb [03:31:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:01] So.

John Dehlin [03:31:03] And I may have already asked this, sort of. But you've never. So it sounds like you've never been really called onto the carpet or, like, disciplinary counsel or like, been mistreated or marginalized by ward members, lost friends by trying to be who you are, your authentic self. Is that right?

Shannon Lamb [03:31:23] I did have a few more than a few friends pull back from me when it was all first Happening. And. Yeah, but to be honest, I think I'm. I'm kind of a personality where I'm like, well, it's all good. Like, I'm not too worried about what other people's problems, you know, and so. But truly, I mean, I've heard some of the things that you guys have gone through, and that has not happened to me at all. But I will say, I think you guys were advocating on a much higher level than I. I mean, you were a podcast.

John Dehlin [03:31:54] Yeah, yeah, we had a podcast.

Shannon Lamb [03:31:55] There was a podcast, you know, But I bet even. I would guess that you were even advocating on a higher level even before you started all this stuff. You know what I mean? Like, you had a higher vision for the things that needed to happen. And whereas. And then I came along afterwards, and I'm seeing all the stuff that you're doing, all these other people that we mentioned are doing, and I just was like, well, where's my spot? Where's my space? And my space for me, because I'm an outgoing. You know, I like people. I'm an outgoing person. I like to talk. I just realized, oh, my space is just here at the ward level or at the stake level, and I can make a difference here.

Shannon Lamb [03:32:30] And it felt very comfortable for me. I mean, and. And this is where I landed, right? It was uncomfortable for a long time. And this is actually what I tell many of my friends that are going through this, where they're like, I just don't have anything to say at church. Like, I just don't even want. Like, if I say something, I'm gonna be angry. And I'm like, oh, don't get me wrong. I was there for two, like, probably close to three years, where someone who loves to speak, who loves to engage, did not feel like I could say hardly anything because I was angry. I was frustrated.

Shannon Lamb [03:33:02] I felt like I had not. They had. You know, people had not been honest with me. And so I would say to those people, like, take all the time you need, like, if you. If you still want to go. But you're just, like, feeling like, where's my spot? I don't think I could even say something positive like, that's okay. I was in that space for a very long time.

Shannon Lamb [03:33:22] And then I just had to kind of learn how to slide in there and where I fit in Mormonism. And, you know, maybe it's the rebellious part of me that's like, no, I'm gonna make this what I want. But I did have friends who were like, different religions were like, come to church with me here. Come to church with me there. And I was like, why would I do. Like, why would I jump from one, you know, religion that's hugely problematic to another religion that's also gonna have its own problems, probably different. But, you know, it just didn't make sense to me to try to jump into something else.

Shannon Lamb [03:33:59] And it didn't make sense to me to just stop going completely. And so, just with time and several years and honestly, the examples, like, so many people in the Waters of Mormon Facebook page have written books and have gone. You know, many of them have left, but they still do a lot of good work. And so just learning and watching from their examples and then saying, oh, I like this.

Shannon Lamb [03:34:22] I like that. I'm gonna take this from them. You can take from other people and use what's good for you and then leave the stuff that doesn't fit your. You know, fit who you are as a person. And what I would say is, if you do choose to stay, you are blessing the lives of the people in your ward because they will get to experience someone who is not experiencing Mormonism the way they are. And we need that. We need all the many voices that are different than ours, whose experience is different than ours. So I'm always like, please stay. And a lot of people are like, no, thank you. And I'm like, that's okay, too. But, yeah, love it.

John Dehlin [03:35:01] Okay. And so you've already answered this about the temple recommend, but it sounds like you're taking the Carolyn Pearson approach, which is, I don't want a temple recommend. When they ask, I tell them I don't want it. Is that right?

Shannon Lamb [03:35:16] Yeah. So I. It was, yeah, I think, like, 2017, where I read this article that helped me. I didn't realize it, which is kind of crazy, but I did not know that I was making a covenant to my husband and not to God. Didn't know that because the language had been so obscured. And I read this article, and I was like, what? And, you know, I was already, like, very concerned about the church and kind of already not really believing. And so I took off my garments and never put them back on. And I have thought about getting my teflam recommend and nuancing the answers and, you know, like, reclaiming that part, like, you can't take that away from me type of thing.

Shannon Lamb [03:35:56] But it just doesn't feel authentic to me to. Because I'm not gonna wear my garments. I'm not going to. I don't believe in the things in the temple because they were. They're very sexist. And. And just as a little sidebar, they changed a lot of the stuff in the temple right when that came out. And I read about it because I was able to read about it through different websites, all the actual changes, I just bawled and bawled because I just thought, you know what? If it had just been a few years earlier, they may have kept me. I may have stayed longer in wearing my garments and going to the temple, but it was so egregious how women were subjugated under their spouse that I just couldn't do it.

Shannon Lamb [03:36:36] And I've thought about getting the tempa recommend and just answering the questions the way I want to. And I know I have a couple siblings who do that or a sibling who does that, but for me, it just hasn't felt right. I've had a bunch of nieces and nephews who've gotten married. So here I fly 2,000, 3,000 miles to not attend their wedding and to sit outside.

Shannon Lamb [03:37:01] But I'm okay with it. You know what I mean? My niece got married last summer, and I did think about getting a recommend then because I'm like, you know, I feel like I can answer the questions honestly enough and I can take back the power to not be excluded from my family when they are doing a significant event like this. But it just didn't feel authentic to me, so I didn't do it. And I might change that in the future. I know that my one son will likely, when he gets married, get sealed in the temple, and I won't be there. And that's sad, but I just kind of pushed that one back onto the church.

Shannon Lamb [03:37:36] It's like, well, you're the one causing this. You're the one not allowing me in. Like, stop doing that. You know what I mean? I don't know, but it's something that I'm okay letting go of. And I also just let that go when that's. Because that is a big part of what is spoken about in lessons. A lot of times, you know, I think people are getting a little more comfortable with talking about how the Time temple is painful for a lot of people. So even if we don't talk about that, I just don't go anymore. I'm also, you know, soon to be divorced, and so, like, that's painful for a lot of divorced families.

Shannon Lamb [03:38:10] And so. So I think people are getting more comfortable with the fact that the temple isn't the, you know, happy joy, you know, peace that. That it is for some people. So got it.

John Dehlin [03:38:22] Okay. And for me that was worked for a while being a second class citizen. So. And I don't mean to frame it that way for you, but that's how I felt. Like I realized I was never gonna be called as a gospel doctrine teacher again. They wouldn't let me near the youth ever. Like, I literally never worked in young men's because I had questions from the very start.

John Dehlin [03:38:46] And then I, you know, in those 30s, late 20s, early 30s, I didn't believe anymore. And I was doing the podcast. So like it was always like nursery, like they let me be primary chorister or nursery person. But you know, it was like I was in a box of like a little penalty box. They let me do elders quorum teacher until like too many people complained. And then I was like either nursery or young, young primary, but never near the youth.

John Dehlin [03:39:20] And then eventually they were just like, no temple recommend for you. And I was like, actually I can nuance the temple recommend questions, Call tithing what I want to call it, call God what I want to call God, call Jesus what I want to call Jesus, call, you know, the restoration what I want to call the restoration.

John Dehlin [03:39:41] And so I was actually fine with the temple recommend questions. But at some point when they knew I wasn't a literal believer, they were like, no soup for you. And then for me it was like, man, this is hard enough hearing every Sunday things that are really problematic, untrue, bigoted, and it wasn't all the time, but it was enough to where it was really grading on me. And then when they were like, nope, you're going to be a second class citizen, I had a really hard time with that. I was like, I'll stay as long as I'm not treated like a second second class citizen. How have you made peace with that? Or do you frame it differently?

Shannon Lamb [03:40:19] I think I do. And again, I really can't emphasize enough the difference between when you guys were trying to do this stuff and when I'm trying to do it. It is a privilege to be doing it now versus then because there's so much more space made for me. And like I said, just to have been in the young women's presidency.

Shannon Lamb [03:40:39] And again, they didn't know maybe my level of disbelief, but I mean, I've been pretty open about it. And I just think that the times, they are a changing and they, I think are going to continue to. To where now. Like I felt very, very alone 10 years ago when this was first happening. I do not feel that now. I feel like I mean, they are coming out of the word work, all the people who are having concerns or who honestly, even if they don't, that they just want to better understand me and they're fine if I believe differently. I think we are letting go of the like, like stranglehold that we have on that.

Shannon Lamb [03:41:14] You have to say that this is true and you have to believe every little part of it. And, and I think it's completely, it's just, it is unavoidable because of the Internet, you can't get away from it anymore. You, you're not going to find anybody who hasn't read something, you know, and even as they try to address it, you know, they're trying to address them a little bit in like seminary, like talk about these things. Well, well, once you do that, these youth, they know their way around a computer, right? They are going to find the stuff so quickly and so they just, they're going to have to.

Shannon Lamb [03:41:45] I think they are bracing for it, but they just have to be prepared that this is going to happen more and more. Like, you know, you guys were kind of like the beginning of it, you know, especially as the Internet was like really coming into being. But it's going to happen. I feel like at a pace that's just even more rapid and, and so I don't feel like a second class citizen. And I see why with your experience, you absolutely felt that way. I mean, that's how they treated you, you know. But for me, like, I know I probably won't be called as a Relief Society president again, but I don't wanna be.

Shannon Lamb [03:42:15] I mean, why would I ever want that? You know, my life is so busy right now, I have so many other things going on that like, I actually don't even have a calling right now because I just have too many things going on. But the calling that I wanna do, like, moving forward, I just gave so much, especially my like 20s and 30s, like, I'm okay not giving as much anymore. You know, let the young ones come in and like, like, you know, burn the midnight oil and do that. I've done that. And so I don't have a desire to do that. I have a desire to like show up where I feel I can help and like provide a unique perspective and that's about it.

Shannon Lamb [03:42:48] So, you know, and it sounds like you were also experiencing it during a time where you really could have given a ton, like even if you didn't believe because you, you know how it's like you're younger, you're like and then like, you get older and you're like, I'm too tired. You know what I mean? You're like, ah, you know, and so I'm kind of in that stage anyway. And so I would say things are changing and I'm not that much of an outlier anymore. And I don't care to get. I want to give what I want to give when I want to give it with the church. And that works fine for callings.

Margi Dehlin [03:43:18] Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I also, I kind of of feel this from you. Tell me if it's true. But to me it feels like you really unplugged from, I don't know, the hierarchy piece of callings and your sense of identity tied to what calling you have. That to me, it feels like you've done a lot of work around really, I don't know, deprogramming, rebuilding, or to have the point of view that you have where, let's just say being in nursery, you'd be like, okay, that could work. Yeah, like, with what I have to give, that. That could work without sort of this sense of like, well, I'm not as worthy or important if I'm called to nursery. Like, to me, it feels like you've done some work around that.

Shannon Lamb [03:44:10] Yeah, yeah. You know, I. I think honestly I actually thought I would never be one to even be called as a Relief Society president. So, like, that was a shocker that I even. Even was in that realm. And then now, yeah, it. It just doesn't bother me where. Where I end up. And I don't have a problem with where. And I. And I think it also goes back to. I understand that I kind of say I am stepping into their space. It's my space too, but I am stepping as a non believer, I am stepping into a believer space. And can I really expect to be in these high callings when I believe differently?

Shannon Lamb [03:44:44] And I'm. I'm really just trying to share my differing viewpoint, you know, just that I'm being let in, I feel like is great. And again, not that I shouldn't be let in or anything like that, but I'm just. I recognize that this is, you know, I need to tread lightly. Right. And so. And I also recognize we would. I also, besides the council together and young women, I also taught several lessons too. And I would recognize where I'd even tell like the, you know, the president or one of the counselors, you know, maybe you want to take this part here because I can't speak to that.

Shannon Lamb [03:45:15] I pray Every night. And, you know, and so I have my own limitations, you know, and so I feel like there's a lot I can give, but I also have my limitations as basically a nonbeliever. And so I don't have a problem that there's only so much I will be able to do, so.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:34] All right, I have a quick question for you. Have you or would you turn down a calling?

Shannon Lamb [03:45:40] I did turn down a calling recently, actually. Well, it was like, last. Last Christmas time. They wanted me to be the camp young women's camp counselor, like, or the leader, like, the main person over it.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:53] That's a big one.

Shannon Lamb [03:45:54] I was like. And, you know, there was so much still going on with the divorce. And my job really picks up in, like, late winter, spring. I mean, it's just, like, it to go nonstop for real estate through, like, midsummer. So I'm like, I cannot be organizing this whole camp and, like, really, like, gearing up to the summertime when my work is really gearing up at the same time. So. So I turned it down. But. And then they're like, well, maybe activities committee. And then I just never got a calling, which, honestly, right now, there's so much going on that I'm okay with that. But.

Shannon Lamb [03:46:27] But I've told, like, everybody in the board knows that my house is always open to have activities at that. I'm happy to help out with whatever. Like, I. And again, this is a personality thing. I like being involved. I like being engaged. And they've been great to, like. Like I said, like, nobody pins me down. Nobody's like, well, do you believe this and do you believe that? Like, I think they're just like, she's willing to help. She's willing to give over time. We will take it, you know, so.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:53] Yeah. And I'm, you know, a close family member of mine was called in by their stake president. Total nonbeliever out, acknowledged nonbeliever. And the stake president's like, hey, you want a temple recommend? And he's like, I don't believe anymore at all. I don't even believe in God. And the stake president's like, I don't care. Do you want to go to the temple?

Shannon Lamb [03:47:11] I love that.

John Dehlin [03:47:12] So, I mean, like, that feels like a relatively modern thing.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:47:17] I've even heard about. And I've talked about this on Mormon stories before, people being called into bishoprics as non believers. And when they tell the stake president, wait a minute. You want me to be first counselor in the bishopric? I don't believe in God. The stake president will say, that's why we're calling you.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:35] Wow.

Shannon Lamb [03:47:36] Yes. Well, that is the very thing that. That has been the problem, I feel like, in the church is it was only the same types of people that were called over and over. So you had one way to do Mormonism, and that was like, 100% obedient. Don't question everything in the church handbook is what you're going to do, like, all these things. And that just is not working for so many people. So I think they're getting the memo, right, that they need somebody who actually has experience with a faith crisis. Otherwise they're not going to be able to serve and help the people that are having this experience, because you can't unless you've experienced it yourself.

Shannon Lamb [03:48:12] It's just really hard to have that empathy and understanding. This is so good for me to hear. Love to hear that. Because I have always felt like the church has to evolve and will evolve, and it sounds like they are. And I actually almost wonder if. If more aggressive things are happening here in Utah versus where we are, because we're just out there, like, kind of doing our own thing in Virginia. Right. But here you have such a concentrated group of people and, you know, people who are, like, feeling they have to go and don't want to go and, you know, so I almost wonder where here is, where.

Shannon Lamb [03:48:44] Where more the progressive things are happening to try to keep people in. That's what I would hope. I mean, those. The things you've shared are, like, awesome. I love hearing that.

Tithing, Temple Recommends, and Navigating Membership

John Dehlin [03:48:52] So are you comfortable sharing how you deal with tithing? And you don't have to, if you'd rather not talk about that.

Shannon Lamb [03:48:56] Yeah, no, I'm totally fine. Totally fine with that. So for.

John Dehlin [03:49:01] For a few years, tithing settlement, I should say.

Shannon Lamb [03:49:03] Oh, I don't even go, like, so my whole thing. Yeah, I mean, like, I love the choice of this.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:08] It's like, no, I would. I wouldn't do that. No, I'm gonna opt out of that.

John Dehlin [03:49:11] Nope, not for me.

Shannon Lamb [03:49:13] But it's just like, yeah, I mean, it's just like, why would I go? Tightness settlement is kind of silly to me. It kind of always was, but I always was fine going, too. But then, honestly, it's like, life is so busy. There's so much going on. I'm gonna go sit down and talk to my bishop and say, yes. I just decided that wasn't for me. And so I don't go, and I don't explain it to anybody. I just don't go. But. And my husband at the time, Time also was fine not going too, because it just doesn't seem like anything that's super productive. It's like, okay, you know, like.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:42] Yeah.

Shannon Lamb [03:49:42] And it's almost even like a checkbox for the poor bishop who has to, like, at Christmas time, meet with all the, you know, when he's busy, and so stop doing that. And then for a while, I just said, hey, I cannot support, you know, a church that is, I know, is giving to things that I really disagree with. And so that's what I had said to my spouse at the time. And so for a while, he still paid tithing based on what he was making, and I did not pay on what I was making. And instead I searched for charities that, you know, they get grades and everything, researched them, decided, you know, kind of thought about what I wanted to give to what I thought were the most, you know, important causes.

Shannon Lamb [03:50:24] So every year, you know, at the end of the year, I kind of think about what's inspiring me or what I think how, you know, what little good I might be able to do in the world with the money I will be giving, and I find a charity, look up the rating, and I give it to a charity who is transparent about what they're doing with the money and who is a cause that I believe in. And interestingly, I do feel like that has connected me a lot more to the giving side of donation and stuff, because when you just write your check, your tithing, you're just.

Shannon Lamb [03:50:57] Just it. It is a bit of an obligation because you have to do it to be able to get in the temple and to feel like you're a good Mormon. So it feels like a bit of an obligation. But then you also.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:06] It's.

Shannon Lamb [03:51:06] It's a little bit mindless, right? You're not thinking about the people you might be helping because you don't even know what they're doing with the money and how it's helping anybody. So for me, it was a reclaiming of what I wanted to do with my. My funds. And. And it was really good to. Again, it put me outside of myself, my little bubble a little bit more. And being like. Like, like clean water, that's really important. Like, that was one I gave to for many years because I'm like, that is a big issue, you know, and so I like the way I do it now.

Shannon Lamb [03:51:34] I feel like it's still tithing because it's. It's giving to those in need. And. And I don't even feel a need to Justify it. But that's what I do and I feel good about it and it's really helped me open up my eyes to the suffering in the world and how I might be able to, in a small way, help. So. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:50] Okay, so you don't do tithing settlement. You kind of pay tithing, whatever you want. Don't have a temple recommend. You mentioned earlier you don't wear your garments. Correct. Did you already talk about how you handle priesthood interviews with your children under 18?

Shannon Lamb [03:52:08] So I, before they became aware of how like inappropriate was for like a middle aged man to be interviewing a youth, especially girls, I sent out emails to my leader, you know, my bishop and Bishop Rick to let them know that I was still okay with interviews at the time. This was years ago, you know, but I was still okay with interviews at the time because I actually thought all of my leaders were great. Like, so that is again, something like a privilege I've had that I feel like my leaders were great, good people.

Shannon Lamb [03:52:40] But what I told them is in any interviews with my boys, that they were not allowed to talk about anything of a sexual nature, that they were not allowed to talk about masturbation or that masturbation was bad. And then I kind of sent a follow up email about the problematic nature of how we teach sexuality in our church and how it really was through the Facebook page of the Waters of Mormon and reading other men's stories of how messed up they got over or, you know, like masturbation, pornography, like all the things that kind of really ended up affecting him later in life. And then I'm looking at my boys here because my daughter was still young and going gol.

Shannon Lamb [03:53:20] So I expect these guys to like wait till marriage and they're not gonna, you know, masturbate or do any of these other things. And I'm like, okay, I gotta change this. And I don't want any shame placed upon them by their leaders about that. So I made it very clear that that was not to be any questions that they were supposed to be asking. And then, interestingly, it was only recently, and I think it was on your podcast, John, where somebody talked about that. It's been out of the asking about.

Shannon Lamb [03:53:49] Is it asking about masturbation? It's been out of the church handbook since like 2011. I was like, what? Like. Because I think leaders were still asking that. I think most leaders were. And so I made that clear and I was okay with them still meeting because again, I. It was boys meeting with a leader who I Knew very well who I trusted, who was a great person.

Shannon Lamb [03:54:13] But then it's become a little bit different as my daughter has gotten older and is now in young women's, and I just let her decide. I've done ones where I sit in with the interview. A lot of times she's just like, nope, I don't want to be interviewed. And they're like, okay. So she's very empowered to just be like, no, I don't want to do that. And. And if she wants to do it, great. And if she doesn't want to do it, that's fine too. So I just let them decide.

Weighing the Costs and Benefits of Staying

John Dehlin [03:54:39] One of the conundrums I had back when I was still attending but not believing, and this was right at the height of the LGBT Mormon youth suicide epidemic, which I don't have current data on, to know whether that's.

John Dehlin [03:54:57] For some reason, it seems a lot less intense now than it was in 2013 or 12. But I don't want to have people stop taking that issue seriously. So I'm just going to say I'm not sure how serious that epidemic is or isn't now, but back then, when I saw that.

John Dehlin [03:55:19] Saw people literally dying. But then aside from that, people getting divorced because of mixed faith marriages, people being, you know, alienated from their children because they lost their faith, you know, all the ways that youth were tormented over matters of sexuality and shame, not to mention the way women were subjugated and minorities, you know, the racism and all that sort of stuff, there was a point where I started asking myself and people started asking, asking me, and I started asking others, aren't you complicit in the harm the church is causing? All these different groups, at a minimum, I mean, you're not giving the church money, and that might be part of why you're not giving the church money.

John Dehlin [03:56:12] But even if you're attending, doing any calling, even giving your name and your reputation or. Or just showing up so that people around you think, oh, well, you know, she's in it, so, like, she's okay with this stuff.

John Dehlin [03:56:28] There's this argument that staying in it, some people view it as being complicit in or contributing to the harm that the church is causing. Have you ever thought about that? And if you have, how have you worked through that?

Shannon Lamb [03:56:41] Yeah, I hear it a lot on your podcast, actually.

John Dehlin [03:56:44] Sorry. And I'm not saying I know the answer, because I'm so happy that you're doing what you're doing, just to be clear.

Shannon Lamb [03:56:50] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:51] I wouldn't have you on the podcast, if I thought it was bad or wrong, yeah. So it's more a chance for you to address it than me saying I believe that.

Shannon Lamb [03:56:58] Yes. No, and I totally get that. And I have heard people say that and I understand that for people who the church has done so much harm for, they're like, just let it all burn, right? Like burn to the ground. But I think the problem, problem you have is that there's always going to be somebody who's staying, right? Like it's not, it's just not going to be that everybody leaves and there's nobody left, right? So the church is done and over with. There's always going to be somebody. And you know, as of right now, it's still a lot of people. So who's going to stay?

Shannon Lamb [03:57:27] Who's going to help and stay back for them, right? And be like, hey you that's staying. I know that you believe all this, but maybe the way you're talking to your daughter who's gay and you don't even know that she's gay is not the most helpful thing, right? So like there's still gonna be people in the church and who's gonna stay for them to help give them a different perspective, right?

Shannon Lamb [03:57:46] Who's gonna say, hey, we could do things differently. And that's where I say I stay because of a benefit from, I mean I talked about, I enjoy this. So I full out like, I go because I like to go and I am able to go and not have much pain because of the privilege in my life and that's totally fine.

Shannon Lamb [03:58:06] But still for the people, for the like, you know, 72 year old woman who's like, well, you know, same sex marriage is wrong, you know, it's just wrong, you know, well, if nobody says, if nobody stays to say, hey, I believe differently or this is my experience, or hey, my nephew is, you know, you know, has his boyfriend or whatever it is, you know, my niece, niece is married to her wife, you know, and, and it's been beautiful to see that. Who is going to help those people who are never going to leave, right? Who is going to help them see differently if we all just go, leave it, let it burn to the ground.

Shannon Lamb [03:58:44] We're leaving, you know, we're just leaving there. The people who have no one to help them see, you know, just a little bit a slightly different perspective. So that's kind of why I would say is I'm there to like help all the people that are still there be like, hey, we can do this and hey, us who are still here, let's change the things we don't like about this. We don't have to accept it. Let's change it, you know?

Margi Dehlin [03:59:08] Yeah. I love that it feels good to you. I think that's an important piece for me is if your why, if you had all the reasons, you know, for a why, but you actually, it was costing you either your mental health or your happiness. But to hear that it actually feels really good for you and the experience too, it's beautiful.

Shannon Lamb [03:59:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so crazy to me because I kind of go, if the Shannon of like 10 years ago could see the Shannon now, like successful career, non believing, divorced, like I would have like, like the Shannon who had just been called as a relief society president could see, actually it's like 12 years ago now, could see the Shannon of now.

Shannon Lamb [04:00:01] Never in a million. I mean, she would just fall off her chair, you know what I mean? But these are the twists and turns that life takes us on. And I feel just as I'm sure you guys feel called to do what you are doing here, I feel called to do this. This feels like the space that I am supposed to be in and the role I'm supposed to play. And one thing I will say is I do tell people I'm Mormon, but I say, you know, but I, you know, I know there's problems with it. So like I give them, I let them know that I'm not like full

John Dehlin [04:00:31] on believing Mormon with an asterisk.

Shannon Lamb [04:00:33] Yes. But the most wonderful thing about it that has been, so I've been doing that for years now, people will open up about their religious trauma or their religion and how they believed and don't believe anymore and they have just fascinating stories to tell.

Shannon Lamb [04:00:48] And then the other funny thing is then they'll tell you what they really believe about Mormons. Once you tell them that you're like, not like that you're in. But you know, there's problems with it and you share a little bit and they'll be like, oh yeah, you guys are the nicest people. But. And then they tell you all the things that they would never tell you if you were just like, yes, I'm a Mormon. And you know, so that's been fascinating as well because I went through my whole life, you know, when I would tell people Mormon, they'd be like, oh, you know what they, oh, they're so family oriented or they're the nicest people. And then now I hear the other stuff that they really think about it too, which is kind of funny to listen to.

John Dehlin [04:01:19] But do you worry about. Well, let me ask you this first. How many others in the ward do you estimate are like you that you know of?

Margi Dehlin [04:01:32] Yeah, that's a great question because there's

John Dehlin [04:01:35] a question of like how many Pimos physically and mentally out in the Mormon church? How many of you, what percentage of active Mormons in the US are Pimos? Right.

Shannon Lamb [04:01:46] Yeah. So I, I feel like that's a harder number to calculate in my ward because I, I feel like pimos are a bigger group here because you have more family pressure, societal pressure to attend because, you know, your sister lives around the corner and your, you know, parents live there down the street and you all get together for Sunday dinner. Like I've heard that type of thing. But when you're out in Virginia, like you often don't have family around, you're kind of just doing your own thing. So I feel like if you church wasn't working for you and you didn't want to go, you would just not go.

Shannon Lamb [04:02:19] You know what I mean? Because you don't necessarily have the family around you trying to be, you know, that are kind of like, why are you going to church and are you making it? And so you have that factor where you already have the people that are going to. The people that are going. I feel like for a fair amount the people that are going in our area are going because they want to. So you already have like the self selecting people who are like, they still believe mostly, you know, and I feel like for those people in my board or in my stake, it's like, it's like the, and I feel like it was the same for me.

Shannon Lamb [04:02:50] It was like the faith crisis descended upon me. I wasn't even looking for it, I didn't even want it. And it just happened because, you know, whatever it was like for me it was like finding out some problems about the church and being in a high calling where I didn't think that this is the way things should be. And you know, for others it's, it's an LGBTQ family member. For others, they, they were, they were innocently on TikTok and saw this, this post and you know, there's just so many things that got them down the rabbit hole. And so for, for me, I feel like several people in my ward may have concerns or questions, but they're believing.

Shannon Lamb [04:03:22] And I would say that I, I know of probably like four or five people are like struggling and trying to figure out what they want to do and where they want to be. And if they want to stay or not, and I'm the one over here going, you can stay, it'll be good. And also telling them, and if you choose not to stay, you're totally fine.

John Dehlin [04:03:44] And you're the only full on PMO that you know of then.

Shannon Lamb [04:03:48] Well, no, I mean, like the other ones are underground.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:53] Okay.

Shannon Lamb [04:03:53] Like they are.

John Dehlin [04:03:54] You don't want to out them.

Shannon Lamb [04:03:55] Yeah. So like there's one who comes, doesn't really believe, but comes with the family. There's another one who they come and they are trying to figure out where they are. There's another one, like I said, they are in a pretty significant calling and they are trying to figure out where they want to be. So, like, I've ushered so many people into like, I'm like, first let's get you into Waters of Mormon and then you can kind of take it from there. Because the thing I love about Waters of Mormon is the goal is to stay actively engaged in Mormonism. So I start them there because that's what I've chosen to do.

Shannon Lamb [04:04:33] And if they want to walk away from it, they'll find the door out, you know, but this is like the gentler, like kind of, of kind of like set you gently on this path and then you can figure out for yourself. So I would say, yeah, I would say I have one that's kind of out but still comes and a couple trying to figure out where they want to be and yeah. And if they want to stay or not. I. I just hope there's going to be more like me because I feel like there's not a ton.

Shannon Lamb [04:05:01] And maybe that will happen as people feel like they can take what they want and leave what doesn't work for them. And that's like, really what I'm here to say is like, no, you can. And the church. But it's clear that you couldn't when you guys were trying to do that, like, that's what's very clear to me is like, there wasn't that option to do that. It was like, you're in and if you're not, we're gonna kick you out. And whereas I'm like, is there space for me? Can I stay? And people are like, yeah, yeah, you know, they want me to stay. But I don't think it doesn't sound like that was the case when you guys were trying to do the very things that I'm doing with a fair amount of ease right now.

John Dehlin [04:05:37] So the next question I was going to ask is, do you worry that coming on Mormon stories and kind of making it really public could put you on the radar to have some pushback and or even discipline, given that this is a different stage than quietly under the radar. This is a little bit different than under the radar.

Shannon Lamb [04:06:02] A little bit.

John Dehlin [04:06:03] Can I say that just a little bit?

Shannon Lamb [04:06:04] Yeah. Well, I've. So one of the, one of my biggest complaints about Mormonism is I feel that people have not been free to be who they are and to show up in their life as they are. And so I'm, you know, maybe it's because I'm getting older, whatever, but I done with that. Like I'm done pretending like I'm something that I'm not or pretending to, you know, to go along, to get along. And I think we thrive and are the best when we can be who we truly are. So I.

Shannon Lamb [04:06:41] Yes. Did I think about like this being out here and me saying the level of my disbelief might impact things. It might, but I'm okay with that. And, and this is how we should all be living life, like as who we really are. And I think one of the biggest challenges of the church is going to be are we still going to love and welcome in and accept somebody, even when they say, I don't believe any of it, but I want to be a part of it.

Shannon Lamb [04:07:10] And I hope the answer is yes. I don't. You know, in my ward and my, I mean my awesome leaders, like, I just don't see them doing anything. Cuz like what would they do? Take my temple recommend away or would they take my calling? I mean, I don't, I don't currently have a calling. I don't have a temple recommend.

Shannon Lamb [04:07:28] So I, I guess I don't see how they can like punish me. But, but then the question would be, well, do you want to punish me? Like I'm, I am showing up authentically saying that this is how I believe and feel. Is that okay? And will you still welcome me in? Like, am I gonna no longer be allowed to give prayers or, you know, and I just, I just don't worry about that. Cause it is what it is. But you know, I think the question to all leadership is, is it okay that I am here and that I still wanna come every week and participate and like actively participate, not just sit there and, you know, mindlessly zone out.

Shannon Lamb [04:08:03] Like so many members do. Like so many members show up to church and they're asleep at the will because it's just the same stuff they've heard over and over. So they you know, they sit out, out. You know, they check out on Sunday school. They sit in the foyer and I'm just going, let's get some life back into this. Let's. Let's talk about our real life experiences. Let's share things we've never shared before and talk about where we really are at, because that will be always the most engaging is the actual hard things that we are experiencing in life and the, and the wonderful things. But just showing up as we really are will always, in my opinion, win the day.

John Dehlin [04:08:40] Yeah. And that's why I'm so excited to do more of these interviews. And that's why I was super excited to see that Charlie Bird and his husband Ryan are actively attending a ward, taking the sacrament with callings. Because as long as that's under the radar and hidden and not discussed, then people don't know it's an option. But once people like you speak up, or like Charlie Bird or others speak up and say, hey, we're here, we're open, we're public, we're not going away, then it just. I envision a tipping point or an avalanche of others feeling empowered to do the same thing. And then you don't have to choose between your faith community and your conscience or your, Your authenticity.

Shannon Lamb [04:09:31] Right, Absolutely. Or, yeah. Or just the things you do. I mean, there's so many ways that we. Other people, or we exclude them. So, like, well, are you drinking coffee? Well, are you wearing your clothes the right way? Well, are you, you know, do you have your temple recommend and all these things? And I understand the intent behind them because we thought that these were the things that would keep you close, you know, draw you closer to God and make you feel safe and whatever the things are. But we really need to let those things go. We really need to let go that this is the one and only and best way for to do things and recognize that we are all experiencing life so differently that we can't say that there's just one exact way.

Shannon Lamb [04:10:10] I. I always give the example of, like, cilantro. Like, I love cilantro. It's so good. My mom hates cilantro. To her, it tastes like soapy. Right? So cilantro, it hasn't changed. There's no difference there. But I'm experiencing it in a completely different way than my mom or other people that don't like cilantro. Right. So, like, wouldn't it be the same for anything that we're experiencing in this life, especially our spirituality, that what is working and perfect for you and really draws you closer to God is not necessarily what's working for me. And they're both okay, you know, but I agree with you. I think, yeah, Charlie Bird, I follow him and his husband and their.

Shannon Lamb [04:10:48] Yeah, their Instagram is so cute. But, yeah, that they can hold callings and talk about their love for the church, you know, that's the thing that I think will change hearts. And so, like, again, that, like, complicit idea. They're the one changing how people feel and letting them know that you can stay and we can make things different in this church. We can do it. It doesn't have to even come from the leadership anymore. We can make the change change.

Remaining Beliefs and Advice for Others

John Dehlin [04:11:14] Okay. And I promise I only have a couple more questions. So what about the argument that. And this is really coarse language, so I'm asking on behalf of ex Mormons that are maybe haven't processed all their pain, but I know that, you know, we have a decent percentage who are ex Mormon and they will want to hear you answer this question. So forgive that. It's kind of harsh. What about those that say, look, Joseph Smith was a sexual predator. The Book of Mormon is an obvious fraud. The church is a fraud. It meets all the criteria of a cult. Like, this church harms people and it's bad. And it was a fraud. And Joseph Smith was a predatory fraud. This is a bad organization. No one should be a member of it. And I know that that's harsh. What would you say to that?

Shannon Lamb [04:12:06] I understand people who feel that way. I recognize their pain around that. I recognize that and I acknowledge the pain that Mormonism has caused for many people. And I don't discount that at all. For me, I feel like the book by Patrick Mason, planted. This is where I was planted. This is where I was born and raised in this. And so I am.

Shannon Lamb [04:12:37] I'm less worried about the things of the past and more worried about what I can do now to change what is right in front of me, what I'm, like, planted in. And I feel like I worry less about the church as just this general entity. And I look at the people in my ward, right? Like they're people, right? And so.

Shannon Lamb [04:12:58] And they're good people. And so. So that's what I focus on. I'm not focused on, like, the church as a whole, although they will, you know, they do things. And it just. I just think some of the decisions are, you know, poorly executed and they've made a lot of mistakes and they're still harming people. But that's again, where I Just decided to focus on just much more smaller level, my ward, my local level, because that's all I'm going to really have an impact on. And that is where it no longer is.

Margi Dehlin [04:13:27] The church.

Shannon Lamb [04:13:28] Like my neighbor who's a member and my friend around the corner who's a member, they're not the church, they're my friends and they're in the church and they believe. And so they're good people. And I just need to. My goal is just to help these really good people see that harmful things have done and we need to do it differently. So yeah, I mean, that's why again, I don't even worry about historical stuff as much because I just like to move forward, change things and make things better. And yeah, a lot of people use

John Dehlin [04:14:00] that analogy of like the United States has problems.

Margi Dehlin [04:14:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:14:04] They've had slavery and 2/3 of a person on the Constitution for black people. Like, yeah. So you know, wars and yeah. So it's sort of like if all organizations have to be in, have to be perfect to be a member, we wouldn't join anything. Therefore Mormon church is imperfect. It's okay to be a member of.

Shannon Lamb [04:14:22] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And yeah. And I feel like I've had to just end up giving a lot of grace as I hope grace would be given for me and where I am at of the people who may still even be causing the harm. Right. Like, I don't think people intentionally want to harm people, especially within a religion. They really think that what they're doing is right. Just as I thought, standing on the street corner holding my yes on Prop 8 sign was the right thing to do. And so those are the people I want to like hang back for and say, hey, there's a different way. Or have you thought about it this way? And you know, not that I'm right or better or all these things, but just like, hey, there is a different way and you know, maybe you could consider this as well. And so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:11] Okay. Are there any traditional Mormon beliefs that you still have? Like, do you believe in a God? Do you believe in Jesus, the resurrection, like any of that? And you don't have to answer or you can nuance it, whatever you want to do.

Shannon Lamb [04:15:26] Okay. So I probably my beliefs have burned to the ground. Everything is burned down and then you kind of build, you're like, well what's left? And what do I want to build on? And this is like so cliche and so like over said, but like it really is just loving, loving people.

Shannon Lamb [04:15:44] So that's where so Where I can see that somebody's trying to love and accept and it really like lifting up the hands that hang down and strengthening the feeble knees. So like love and service are your religion. Yeah, that's it. And so I think Jesus was a great example of that. So I love Jesus as a wonderful example. I love the stories of Jesus. Do I need to know if he really existed in the way we believe that he, you know, it's taught that he did or that he did all these things not as important.

Shannon Lamb [04:16:13] And then it just makes it so much easier. Right? Like I don't have to figure out if Joseph was inspired or wasn't inspired. Should he have been marrying that 14 year old girl or not? You know, I just have to go, I don't need to worry about that. But if what I am doing right now in my life, showing love, kindness to others and serving others and that's it. And I don't have to worry about any of the other stuff.

John Dehlin [04:16:35] So even death and afterlife stuff.

Shannon Lamb [04:16:38] So the great thing about that, so my, my dad passed away five years ago and that was really hard because I was already well within my, you know, well into my faith crisis. And it, I was just like, well, where'd he go? Like what happened to him? Like he was here and his was sudden, so it wasn't, it wasn't an illness. It was, he was here and he literally was gone the next. And that was like what happened. And so through that I realized that really even Mormonism doesn't have the answers.

Shannon Lamb [04:17:07] It could tell me that he was in some spirit prison or heaven or whatever we even believe. That I think is kind of vague and still like not really clear. But it didn't have the answer for where is he right now? What is he experiencing right now? What is he doing right now? And so, so that just helped me realize that we have super vague answers, even about the afterlife, you know, so even the Mormon responses weren't super like soothing to me because they weren't really an answer. They didn't give me a concrete where is he now? What happened to him? What is he doing?

Shannon Lamb [04:17:43] And so, but again, that's the great thing about like this is what I believe now and it can change tomorrow. And I don't, my belief is like, generally I say I don't know anything, I don't know anything, and that's the best place to be. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not gonna emphatically say that I know this or that I don't know. And that Is. And that's where the wonder comes in. Like the. And the humility to be like. No, I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [04:18:07] And the curiosity.

Shannon Lamb [04:18:08] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:18:10] So humility.

Shannon Lamb [04:18:11] Yes. Totally.

John Dehlin [04:18:14] Okay. Do you know about restore? Have you been to it and have you ever considered going to it if you haven't been to it?

Shannon Lamb [04:18:23] I've heard of it.

John Dehlin [04:18:24] RESTORE is progressive Mormon General Conference. So it's basically swap out the First Presidency and the quorum of the 12 with Patrick Mason, Thomas McConkie, like Rosalind Welch, like all the progressive Mormons that inspired you. But Jerry Lee Renshaw is always there. Yeah. All those people just like Once a year, 5,000 people singing songs praising Jesus. Joseph's name's never mentioned. It's a big deal.

Shannon Lamb [04:18:56] Yeah. So have you had some. I think some of the talks from there, or whatever you call them are on. Like, I think I've listened to them. If that's restored.

John Dehlin [04:19:05] Yeah, yeah. Faith Matter, restore, it's all one organization run by the Turnbulls.

Shannon Lamb [04:19:09] Yeah. So, yeah, if you guys would come out to Virginia and do some stuff out that way, because you guys are always having cool stuff, like Waters of Mormon has gatherings out here and, like, all the stuff I would love to join, like, be a part of, but it's, you know, it's 2,000 miles away, so sometimes it's a little hard to get out here. But yeah. But yeah, I would love to be involved in that.

John Dehlin [04:19:29] Okay. All right. Well, I am just so delighted, Shannon Lamb, that you would be willing to tell your story. You've been such a thoughtful and articulate voice for the pimos, for the physically in and mentally out, for the progressive Mormons that choose to stay. This was something I always would do on Mormon stories, but for a while, it's just been, I don't know, hard to find people to do it. So this has been amazing. And I'm also gonna re. Extend my invitation to other PMOs that feel like they've got something different to share. Like, if you're PMO and miserable, I want to hear that. Right. Or if you're PMO and bishop, I want to hear that. Like.

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Margi Dehlin [04:20:10] Or different strategies. Or if your why is different.

John Dehlin [04:20:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please do apply. Margi reviews all those applications, and I try to, too, and we would love to consider you, but, Shannon Lam, thank you so much for sharing your. Your story today. I know it's going to help people.

Shannon Lamb [04:20:27] Yeah, thanks for having me on it. It actually was helpful to, like, kind of go back over my journey and see, like, even when you were Questioning. You're like, do you enjoy doing this? I'm like, well, I think so, you know, so it's been good to kind of review for myself and see like, why do I do this and do I want to continue and how I want to continue. And you know, I appreciate your guys perspective as well of talking about, hey, we were doing this, you know, 20. We were trying to do this 20 years ago and it wasn't working. And you know, and I'm doing this for right now. I may decide next year this doesn't work for me. And that's what I hope people will take away is I'm doing this because it works for me right now.

Margi Dehlin [04:21:01] That's right.

Shannon Lamb [04:21:02] And if I decide in two years, 10 years, whatever, that it's not working for me anymore, I'll move on. But for right now it works. And I'm hope that some other people will find that it works for them too. So I'm not so alone in this, but I think it can work for people. And yeah, I'm thankful to have been able to share with you guys. We're grateful.

John Dehlin [04:21:24] Yeah. Margi, thank you so much for your contributions today. Any final words or thoughts?

Margi Dehlin [04:21:29] I don't think so, just that I'm grateful. I'm grateful to have been able to kind of witness and hear your story.

Shannon Lamb [04:21:34] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [04:21:35] Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [04:21:37] All right, well, don't be a stranger. And yeah, our best wishes to all those who choose to stay or have to stay. We are grateful for whatever you're able to do to help make the church a better place for those who are in it.

Margi Dehlin [04:21:51] That's right. And those are some lucky people in your warden's day to experience you. That's what I'll say. They're lucky.

Shannon Lamb [04:21:58] Yeah. Yeah. It's been a journey and I feel lucky to have them too, because you guys didn't have those experiences. And so people who are a little more gentle with me and willing to make room for me and. And I just hope that continues to be the trajectory. I have hope and faith. If I have hope or if I have faith in anything, it is that there will be positive change in the church and that, you know, more good will come out of it as we are able to share how we really feel in this life and show up authentically. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:22:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:22:33] Beautiful. Well, thanks again and thanks to all of you for joining. Joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. Huge thanks to my staff.

Shannon Lamb [04:22:41] Please.

John Dehlin [04:22:41] If you value this type of content and you want to see it continue, Please subscribe to YouTube subscribe to Facebook or wherever you check out our content, TikTok, Instagram if you like and subscribe to our content. It helps with the algorithms. We want to thank all our donors that make all this possible. We couldn't do it without you and we lose something like 20 recurring donors every month and if we don't replace them with new donors then we have to start cutting back. So if you value this content, you're not a current recurring donor, we would invite you to consider going to MormonStories.org, clicking on the donate button, becoming a monthly donor and we'll continue providing these wonderful interviews with these wonderful people for as long as you're able to support us.

John Dehlin [04:23:22] And a huge thanks to Julia Maven, Gerardo, Brooklyn, Margi, all our staff are bored of the Open Stories foundation because we couldn't do it it without you all. Thanks again Margi.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:33] Thank you babe.

John Dehlin [04:23:34] Thanks Shannon. Thank you and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care

Shannon Lamb [04:23:41] of.

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