Introducing the Topic and Guests

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's December 16, 2024. The Mormon Church has decided to teach polygamy to its children and to its adults. It's a crazy time and that's what we're covering today. So to kind of give you a tiny bit more explanation, in the recent online I don't know scriptures curriculum, there is a new sort of like cartoon styled telling, brief telling of Joseph Smith's polygamy. There's a little photo of it for those joining us visually that tries to kind of communicate to kids the awesomeness and the necessity and the virtues of polygamy, which I'm just going to say at the outset, I don't sit around looking for things to complain about. I'm not a grievance seeker. I'm very happy just to have people tell their Mormon stories and like to go home. So, like, I'm not looking for new stories to get upset about. I'm not looking to nitpick the church. Literally, in a million years, I would have never guessed this would happen. And to help us today break this down, back on Mormon Studios is the Alyssa Whitbeck. Hey, Alyssa. Hello.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:01:24] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] Thanks for being willing to just jump on this one.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:01:27] Of course, yeah. Lots to say.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] How's life been lately?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:01:31] Good.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:32] Yeah, it's been.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:01:32] Been good.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] All right, well, thanks for joining us. And Alyssa, tell us your bona fides or whatever the word is.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:01:39] Yes. So I'm a writer. I especially talk about Mormonism, Mormon women's experience. And particularly relevant for today's conversation is I'm also a mom. I have a four year old little boy. So that's primary age. Unfortunately, it connects here.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Yeah. And I was thinking we should just have a parent of a young kid who's kind of would be the target of this curriculum.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:02:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] How would a mom respond? So that's you.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:02:07] That's me.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Thanks for being our go to mom.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:02:10] I'll go to mom. I'll take it.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Okay. And if that weren't cool enough, we have back on Mormon Studios, the one, the only, the excommunicated Natasha Helfer.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:22] Like, dun, dun, dun.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] How are you, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [00:02:26] Oh, my gosh. I'm actually really good other than this topic. I'm amazing.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] Yeah. So Gerardo was like, you gotta ask Natasha. And I'm like, is she getting ragey on the Internet? And I think you were. Were you getting ragey? Is that the one?

Natasha Helfer [00:02:38] I did get ragey. And Ranty on the Internet.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] So you're not a big fan of this little development?

Natasha Helfer [00:02:43] Not a huge fan.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:44] And I also am not looking for reasons to be mad, but for some reason, they always seem to kind of

John Dehlin [00:02:49] just pop up, find you. They find you.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:51] I call it, see, ptsd.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Well, tell everyone who you are for the. For all the. You know, we, like, recycle our audience every two to three years. So your excommunication was when?

Natasha Helfer [00:03:02] 2021.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Yeah. So, like, you're old news. Nobody knows who you are.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:06] Nobody knows who I am.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] The audience is like, who's this woman? Well, tell them who you are.

Natasha Helfer [00:03:11] All right, so I am a marriage and family therapist. I'm also a sex therapist. I was excommunicated in 2021 by the

John Dehlin [00:03:18] Church primarily for teaching good things. For being e. In your practice as a therapist?

Natasha Helfer [00:03:25] Basically, yes. For a lot of the sexual health advocacy work that I was trying to do within my community. So I'm no longer able to be within my community. And, yeah, so I work in that intersection of, like, religious trauma, sexual health, mental health, you know, run a group practice, symmetry counseling, where we work on these issues on the daily. So, yeah, funny.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] The excommunicators thinking we'll go away, and it just makes us more known. Right. Like, I like, you're still at least the top five consultant therapist, even for active believing Mormons, as far as I know.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:04] Well, that's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] Yeah, that's. That's my sense.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] So it's not.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:08] It wasn't my plan for marketing, but if they want to help me out, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] I'm still waiting for sex Communication, the novel. When is that?

Natasha Helfer [00:04:15] Hey, I'm working on that.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Oh, you are?

Natasha Helfer [00:04:17] I am. Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:04:18] All right, stay tuned.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] Stay tuned. All right, well, thanks for joining us. We are live streaming today because these are the types of current events, things that we love to get people's feedback on. So we're always grateful for comments. If you really want to make sure we see your comments, feel free to make them super chats, and that'll make sure that we see it and we read it. We. We do our best to promise that we will respond to every Super Chat comment made. I've got Maven moderating in the live stream. Julia is also with us, and we're eager to hear what y' all think as well. So share your stories, share your comments, share your reactions. We want it all. Okay, well, Alyssa, you prepared these slides, so do you want to tell us just kind of how you heard about this? You know or was I the one that made you aware of it?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:05:20] Were you the one? You may have been the one. It was a blur. I either saw it from you or I saw it on. Just on Instagram. I can't remember. But essentially what happened is within the past couple of days, the church quietly released some new scripture stories intended for children. And we have a slide that shows where you can find out on the church's website. But you can look.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Yeah. So I grabbed these screenshots just from Reddit, but somebody I think just on their mobile apps screen captured. I don't know if this is LDS tools or scriptures. Do you know?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:05:52] Yeah. So you just go on to the Coming to Christ website, the new lds.org and then urs Library, which is one of their main tabs.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] So here we've got like Scriptures. In this case it's got like Doctrine and Covenants.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:07] And this is where you go if you're trying to just find like people that will just read like it has the full Book of Mormon there, the full Doctrine and Covenants. So kind of similar to LDS tools if you're just looking at scriptures on your phone.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] This will be the app that, if kids have the app, this will be what they see.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:20] This is right on it. Yeah. This is right next to just the full text of the Book of Mormon. There's a tab that says Scripture Stories.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] That's in the bottom left for those who are watching Scripture stories. And then you click on that, and

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:32] then the scripture stories are broke. And these scripture stories specifically for children, when you actually click on it.

Natasha Helfer [00:06:39] Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:06:39] And then they're broken down into Old Testament stories, New Testament stories, Book of Mormon stories, Doctrine and Covenant stories. Anyway, this is within the Doctrine and Covenants Stories section of that. So if you're a parent or you're a teacher or you're a child who's just trying to find a Doctrine and Covenants scripture story, this is just on there alongside other stories like Eternal Marriage and Family. It's just another one on there. And the official title is a plural marriage 1831-1890. And then it is this. Well, we'll read all of it in a minute. But it's just like a scripture story, basically that's written in a voice that children will be able to understand. Primary age is 3 to 11 and.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] Yeah, yeah. And if I could just. Natasha, I don't know if you remember this, but when I was growing up, they had these illustrated stories from the Book of Mormon, like living scriptures. Well, actually, I was gonna get to that next. But before. So Living Scriptures was like cartoon videos where you could watch cartoons of, like, Mormon stories, church history, Book of Mormon stories with some song in the middle. And it was, you know, but before VHS tapes, you could buy, like, these big libraries of these hardback books. They were kind of thin and they had, like, illustrated stories told in the Old Testament, New Testament, and Book of Mormon. So, like, an example would be the Ammonia, the Ammon story where he goes and he, like, chops off the arms of all the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon, and you see him with, like, a big pile of arms, you know, like that. You know, as a kid, that's. It was way easier for parents to get kids to do scripture study if they could read with pictures.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:08:30] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] So this, to me, is like an update of that. But then the cartoon style is very much in the Living Scriptures, sort of Hanna Barbera cartoon style of 70s and 80s classic cartoons.

Natasha Helfer [00:08:45] Yeah, right. And I. We were never cool enough or rich enough for the Living Scripture set, but we did have the written versions, which, yes, it is a lot more fun to read a cartoon version of the scriptures versus not. And everybody does this. This is not like. I mean, there's plenty of Bible stories out there that are cartooned. So you're presenting kind of some really interesting information to developmentally, kind of like young age group things like Noah's Ark and, you know, the decimation of all kinds of populations due to God's desires. So, yeah, it's interesting how we do this.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] A spoonful of cartoons helps the medicine go down.

Natasha Helfer [00:09:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Right. Okay, so here's the first slide we have, and we're just gonna read it, and then we've got some commentary. So I don't know, Alyssa, do you want to read it or do you want me to read it?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:09:38] Yeah, I can go ahead and read it.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] Okay. Read the main text just for the people who are listening. Listening only.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:09:43] Okay. Plural marriage. And then our little tagline here that is important, is their main takeaway that they have up top is faith to obey a law from the Lord, even when it's hard.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] Can I just stop you right there, please? So Margi is not one to have her mind in the gutter. I showed her this because I was explaining to her what today's episode was about. And literally her first response was, did they have to use the word hard? Oh, right. Natasha.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:10:12] Like, I.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Is Margi's mind in the gutter or is that.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:15] Mine's always in the gutter. I guess as a sex Therapist. I'm always thinking about these things. But, Margi, I'm with you.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] Couldn't they have said difficult? I mean, really, there were a lot

Natasha Helfer [00:10:24] of things that were hard at this point.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:10:26] Yes. As far as sensitive topics is not necessarily a good space for euphemisms.

Natasha Helfer [00:10:31] Yes, well, and especially if it's for preteens or anybody. I mean, like, the kids are not going to pick up on this stuff, so.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] Right, yeah, yeah. No, I don't think it's dirty mindedness. I think that was just really bad editing. Okay, keep going. Alyssa, I'm sorry to interrupt.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:10:45] All right.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] If you don't like that, blame Margi. Okay. All right, go ahead.

The New Children's Curriculum on Polygamy

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:10:49] We have a little picture of Joseph. Looks like he's reading the Bible, I think, looking deep in thought. While the prophet Joseph was studying the Bible, he read about prophets like Abraham and Moses, who had been married to more than one wife. Joseph wondered how the Lord felt about that. So he decided to ask the Lord.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] Okay, so, you know, historically, I think that's sort of true in the sense that I think Joseph was a big student of the Bible and, you know, he read about the polygamy in the Old Testament and he's like, hey, maybe we could bring this back, you know. And I shared this with a really well respected Mormon journalist and historian and her immediate reaction was, hey, this is. I'm kind of torn. Cause this is kind of good. Why are you nodding, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:11:38] Well, I was just saying, I would imagine you mean just the whole, this whole concept existing is kind of good. I mean, I think people who have been out of the church and in the church have been begging the church for transparency for a very long time. And so initially I was hoping. I mean, I was frustrated because I was thinking, oh, man, all of the, you know, people are going to be so annoyed that when we complain about this because they're gonna say, oh, ex Mormons, you ask for transparency, then they give it and then you're still mad.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Yeah. And it's like, we can never satisfy you ex Mormons.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:12:09] Yeah. It's just the way that it. The way that this is presented, I think is really problematic, especially to young children. And so it seems like it's taking a good theory of transparency and it has unfortunately twisted it into something that is harmful.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] What do you think, Natasha? Kudos to the church for its honesty and transparency. To children, no less?

Natasha Helfer [00:12:33] Well, I guess we'd have to define what we're calling transparent. You know, I feel like this was three sentences they chose, you know, metaphorically. To describe a three book chapter of. And just very nitpicky about what they chose to put in here. So I'm not sure that would totally count as transparency. I do think it's good that people don't need to be surprised when they're 50 to find out that the religion they've been in their entire lives, their primary prophet was a polygamist. You know, I think we've had that issue in the past. I think that's good in that regard. And then. Yeah, I'm sorry that basic standards of ethics and legalities are part of maybe the criteria that we have as ex Mormons, that we're holding the church accountable to basic ethics and laws of the land in the moment. I guess I'm not going to apologize for that.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Yeah. I'll just add that, you know, it would be one thing if they were coming clean of their own volition, but we all know that it's the Internet that's forced the church to become honest. And with all the people hemorrhaging as they are leaving the church, that they realize they have to inoculate their youth and their children or those same people will feel betrayed when they become of age to stumble on Mormon stories or the CES letter. So you could frame this as kind of devious, that if you just kind of slip it in there when they're young, either they're going to hear about it and then go, oh, this is not the droid you're looking for. Because, yeah, I learned about that when I was 8. Or, you know, best case, they never stumble on it. But when they're an adult, the church can point back and say, oh, we had that in your scriptures back in 2024. So, I mean, you could argue that this is like sneaky strategy to be able to inoculate them from being concerned later. I don't know. Yeah, okay. Anyway, those are my thoughts. So, yeah, framing it. And Alyssa, did you make the point you wanted to make about framing it as faith to obey a law from the Lord even when it's hard?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:14:44] Yeah, I do just think that that is a very obviously intentional subtitle they have there.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] Actually, I'll go to your next slide where you have more points about that. You've got. Okay, you've got obedience more important than intuition.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:14:59] Oh, yeah. I just say that basically throughout this entire thing, they're just going to repeat that main idea that obedience is more important than intuition, which is a really scary thing to teach adults, much less children. And yeah, I guess we can Continue. But I'm sure we'll return to that main thesis.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] Yeah, like, it's so messy in the history on this is so messy. Like you said, Natasha, like to call plural marriage a law from the Lord. Joseph was like 30 wives in before DNC132 was even dictated. Fanny Alger, when Joseph took his first plural wife, the sealing power. The, you know, the sealing power hadn't even been given yet, let alone eternal marriage, let alone the polygamy quote revelation. And so, and again, Joseph was 22 wives into, you know, his spiritual wifery before he ever let Emma even in on what he was doing. So it's weird to frame this as the law from the Lord when it very much could have been sexual predation. And I'll add, you talk to Patrick Mason, who's like the church's foremost believing historian. He literally said on Mormon Stories podcast that to him, Joseph Smith's polygamy looked a lot like sin. And that's the progressive belief these days that Joseph actually went into apostasy and polygamy was an example of him going astray. So are you, Natasha, surprised to see the church framing this as like, Joseph obeying the law of the Lord, or did that strike you weird?

Natasha Helfer [00:16:41] Maybe I'm not surprised by it because this is their MO Is to consistently stand by ridiculousness instead of actually owning like, hey, maybe we need to actually address this from a different level. But that would actually require them to abandon polygamy, which I think sometimes we think they have and they have not. So how are they going to say this was an incorrect principle or a sin, quote unquote, when it's still. Polygamy is very much still in our doctrine. It's still in our marital and temple ceremonies. It's still pretty much Apostles of the Lord are currently saying things like, I have two wives that I'm super happy to have. I could never say that, you know, just because my spouse would die, I couldn't get remarried in the temple, and I could never say, I have two husbands. So the practice of polygamy is alive and well and mainstream LDS doctrine and belief and practice. And this is where when I think of myself personally as a member of the church, this kind of like, silly, simplified, oh, woe is Joseph. This was so hard.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] You're getting ahead of us, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:49] This is how it was presented to us, right? And I was told many times, don't worry about it, Sister Helfer. We're no longer practicing it. Sister Helfer. This was just in the moment it was difficult. But then what really kind of gets to people, and this is why I don't think it's transparent, is that you find out the truth. You find out like you read the historical journals of women who were in polygamy, you realize this is not the little story and how it's portrayed is not real.

Joseph Smith's Polygamy in Detail

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Yeah. Yep. And I'll just add, like, would if once you know the details of Joseph Smith's polygamy, and I'm sure there's a lot of you that don't know, he married 14 year old girls, he married sister pairs, he married foster children that were entrusted to his care. He married mother daughter pairs, and again, 22 wives were unbeknownst to his first wife, Emma. So again, to call it the law of the Lord and to frame Joseph Smith's polygamy as being the law of the Lord means that God condones his prophets to be sexual predators and pedophiles on children. Is that too extreme? Like, some people don't like using the term pedophile with Joseph Smith. And I don't know what age actually maybe, you know, Natasha, what age counts as pedophilia and if what he did with 14 year olds counts as that according to your understanding.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:35] Yeah, so this. So I do hear this a lot. And if we're going to be sticklers on vocabulary, he actually was not a pedophile. A pedophile. The correct definition of that is sexual attraction to prepubescent children. Right. So people who have not gone through puberty. Ephebophilia is attraction to adolescents and minors who have gone through puberty. So even at the time, which is another way that I think this gets minimized, people will say, well, back then it was normal for girls who were 14 to be having sex and getting married. That actually was not true. There were standards of youth development even in the 1800s around what was deemed appropriate time to mate and to marry and to have sex.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] Yeah. And it wasn't 14, right? No, not even on 14.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:24] He was a predator. Yes. I do agree with that language and I do agree that there was a lot of power and abuse dynamics going on here, but pedophilia is actually not the correct term.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Thank you. It's good to have you. There you go. Really quick thanks to Meagan Connor for her super chat donation. Thanks to Kelly Allen as well, and then also to Christina Cruz. And let me just say, Mormon Stories Podcast lives primarily by its just regular monthly donors. So we don't call them out here on YouTube, but we really want to thank all of our donors that just donate through MormonStories.org every month because you make all this possible. So huge thanks to you. Okay. And I guess the last thing I had on that slide is would God command something predatory and coercive and unethical for minors? Right. Do we want, Alyssa, what do you think? Like, would God tell Joseph Smith, as a prophet, to tell a 14 year old girl that she needs to have sex with him? What's your opinion as a mom?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:21:32] Yeah, my opinion is that no God worth worshiping would command that.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Right? Yeah. Okay. All right, well, let's go to the next slide, Alyssa, and you can just go and read it and we'll write it down again.

Analyzing the Implicit Messages in the Curriculum

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:21:45] The Lord said that usually a man should have only one wife, but sometimes the Lord commanded his people to be in marriages of one man and more than one woman. This was called plural marriage. The Lord told Joseph that his people should only be in plural marriage if he commands it.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] All right, what are your. What's wrong with that, Elizabeth?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:22:03] You know, I mean, just this is a small thing. Just that kind of struck my ear. Strange. And I think language is particularly important when we're talking to children, especially Lis likes words. I do list Likes words. Exactly. I think especially in a story that is so sensitive, I think using the language, that a man should have only one wife, kind of including that ownership, rather than be married to only one woman. And, and this is something that comes up throughout this, you know, scripture story, as they refer to men as men. Plenty of times they refer to women occasionally as women, but oftentimes as wives. And I think, you know, if we're just talking about that early indoctrination of children, aside even from the actual horrors that the story is, thinking about little boys and little girls realizing or being taught so young that, yeah, just the subtlety that women are reduced to their role in a position to a man and man can have wives rather than be married to a woman. You know, I think those types of things have a big effect on a child's subconscious. And yeah, as a parent, I feel like I am hypersensitive of what language I'm using, what language it is that he's going to be repeating because he loves repeating pretty much everything I say. I realize I have to edit my language all the time because of the implicit messages that he's picking up. And so I think we just need to be aware of the implicit messages and the explicit messages that this is giving to our youth.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] Natasha, I want to get Your feedback on the slide. But just to echo this comment you made, if any of you want to blow your mind, just Google Doctrine and covenants section 132, which is Mormon scripture. It's still canonized Mormon scripture to, to this day in 2024. And if you read it, it's Joseph Smith's sort of after the fact quote, revelation on polygamy after Emma caught him with 22 wives and he needed to kind of make up a revelation to not have Emma leave him. So he comes up with this revelation, tries to get his brother to tell Emma that God, you know, gave this revelation because he was so scared to deliver it to Emma himself. But in that doctrine covenant section 132, God, you know, Joseph basically voices God saying, you know, if a man espouses a virgin and he wants another virgin and she's a virgin, she will be given unto him, and if he wants more than two or three, they will be given unto him. And, and then, and then it even goes on to say that if, like, the man isn't faithful or if the woman. No, if the woman, like, falls or sins, she'll be given to another. And it's, it's in DNC 132. Women are indistinguishable from cattle or chattel, I think. So that's. Just check that out and you'll see that this language, the creators of the curriculum come by it honestly, because that's how DNC132.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:25:11] Yeah, they got it from somewhere. There's a link to DNC132 and we can definitely see the ghost of DNC132. Even though they're trying to soften it up a bit.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] It. Yeah. Natasha, any, any reactions to this slide?

Natasha Helfer [00:25:22] Oh, I, I think it's just interesting how, and, and this isn't just about polygamy. There's compulsory monogamy as well, where we, again, blame God for telling us how to have relationships. And the thing that just stands out to me blatantly here is just God gets to decide either way. Where's a person's decision? Where's a person's consent? Where's free agency? Yeah, free agency. I mean, even monogamy. We believe as an LDS church that without a monogamous celestial marriage, you cannot attain the highest degree of heaven. LDS heaven. And so that's not like, what are the reasons people should be becoming sexual with one another, for me, is more consent, pleasure. But if it's like, well, if I don't, God's going To be angry with me. We've got a problem. So right away, we're setting this up with incorrect principles of how people should partner.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] Yeah, love it. And then I'll just add, you know, what they're trying to do here when they say the Lord sometimes commands his people to be in marriages of one man and more than one woman. First of all, that sort of is. It's written to make us all think Old Testament. But it's just recently that I realized nowhere in the Old Testament is God telling Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon to, like, marry multiple women or have concubines. Now, it says that they had them, but I think that was just sort of like how things were done culturally at the time. But it is my understanding, and I welcome viewers and listeners to correct me. Are y' all aware of God in the Holy Bible ever commanding his prophets to be polygamists? Either of you?

Natasha Helfer [00:27:13] I would agree with you. I think that we make this conflation a lot in scriptures because just because it was happening by people we consider religious leaders and therefore can do no wrong, that what they were doing was definitely supported by God. I think that we make that mistake in all different religious backgrounds for a lot of different things.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] Yeah. And then they cite Jacob 2:27 30 in the book of Mormon as a source for when God commands people to, you know, men to have more than one wife. But literally, the purpose of that scripture. Am I wrong? Was to say, don't be polygamist. Am I right?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:27:50] Yeah. No, no, you're right.

John Dehlin [00:27:51] Like, the Book of Mormon does not have polygamy, as far as I know. So that scripture was saying, don't be a polygamist. And then for the first several decades in the Mormon Church's history, the Doctrine and Covenants itself said that men should only have one wife and women one husband. And so this is making it sound like, oh, Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon. Everybody was doing polygamy, you know, but God requires it. But no, it's the only person. The only instance we have of God allegedly telling a prophet to be a polygamist is literally Joseph Smith.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:28:30] And I think, you know, to Natasha's point from a minute ago, it's Joseph who is the one who is saying God commanded this or God did not command this. Like in Jacob, like God in the Old Testament, New Testament, people were getting married, people were not married, people were having plural marriages, people were not having plural marriages. He didn't seem to have that much of an opinion. But suddenly the Book of Mormon comes around Joseph Smith comes around and God has a lot to say about how people need to be married and what that looks like. And it is really interesting too to just think about how Joseph, you know, probably just assumed, like Natasha was saying, oh, because this is in the scriptures, God probably commanded it. But then he was the one that actually inserted that language into the scripture and into the culture and into revelations. And now it has given the church a bit of a pickle that they can't really eradicate themselves from, don't you think?

John Dehlin [00:29:25] If y' all were God, Natasha, if you were God, would you or Goddess, would you make it so that like the woman had to receive the revelation? If the man, you know, was supposed to practice polygamy instead of just conveniently it's the man claiming that God told him that the women should marry him? Would that work in your universe, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [00:29:47] Darn it. Yeah. Again, when I think of myself in the role of a parent, which is kind of how we've been taught to think about deity, I would just want my people to be good and happy and pleasurable and deal with the issues that are coming up, not create more issues for no, apparently good reason. Like life is traumatic enough without unnecessary trauma that now I'm going to inflict. So we either have a really dysfunctional parent figure at our God or we kind of got God wrong. This is kind of my thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:30:19] Yeah, well, Hellfire Agency is kind enough to remind us that none of the patriarchs down to David and Solomon are actually historical people. So even to begin with, there's that.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:30:31] Here's another wrinkle.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] These dudes weren't real, unfortunately, according to many Jewish scholars, by the way. Okay, so yeah, and again, this is obvious, but like, how would a 14 year old girl know whether or not to believe a 38 year old man who everybody worships as a prophet? How would a 14 year old girl know whether he was telling the truth or not? And know whether all that pressure was not just her psychology or social pressure, but instead God's will, you know?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:31:11] Yeah. And that's what makes just all this so devastating is it's not just that these people were put in relationships that they didn't want to be in, or that they were unhealthy relationships, but that many of the many, if not most of the plural wives were unhappy, were not able to consent, did not have information enough to be able to consent, and even then they were not in a position to be able to make decisions. There was a person in power over them. I mean, it's just. It's so complicated and heartbreaking for the women involved. And it, you know, strikes a chord when we're thinking about teaching this to children who are younger than 14, because how are they then supposed to know? If a grown man who is my bishop is asking me something, how do I know? You know, is he speaking from God, or is this something I'm supposed to tell my mom and dad? You know, I think it's. It makes just very basic questions of intuition murky. That is already hard for adults to be able to recognize, much less adolescents and children.

John Dehlin [00:32:15] Yeah. All right, let's go to the next little caption. Alyssa.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:32:21] All right, let's see. Oh, this is a picture of Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] Describe Joseph's picture.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:32:25] He is devastated. He is sitting, kneeling by his bed with his head in his hands. He is distressed.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] He is tormented at this horrible commandment that God's given us.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:32:37] Exactly. Because as long as we can imagine Joseph to be a victim, then we can just forget that the other people in this story are also victims. And we can feel bad for Joseph and just be like, wow, God is such a sneaky guy.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Okay, does this picture making you tear up at Joseph Smith, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [00:32:53] It's just making me so sad for his hardness.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] Okay, keep going.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:33:00] A few years later, the Lord told Joseph to marry other women. Poor Joe. Joseph didn't want to marry other wives, but he knew it was a commandment from the Lord. He had no choice. That was my. That was my addition. When Joseph asked a woman to marry him, he told her to pray about it. He wanted her to know from the Lord that it was right.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] All right, any. What don't you like about that, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:33:25] Okay. I mean, I think it is misleading, kind of going back to Natasha's point that this is not necessarily a transparent scripture story, that Joseph is asking other women to pray about it. Because many times the women would pray, pray about it, say, no. This happened repeatedly. Lucy Walker is the first person I'm thinking of right now. And then he would basically say, like, oh, you need ask again. And then they would say that it was okay, or he would threaten physical violence if she didn't marry him. And so then she would say, okay, so it's this coerced coercion rather than actual consent that they are just trying to spin around into being. Oh, yeah. As long as she knew what was right also. Totally. It was totally fine. He was sad and the woman was totally fine is kind of how this slide reads.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Yeah. And if you read some of the accounts, he was like, Mayor, like head of the Nauvoo Legion, prophet, like Chief justice, he held all the titles. And then he'll corner this teenage girl in a room, close the door, parents aren't there, literally a minor. And then say, hey, God told, God told me that I need to marry you. And if you do it, he would add, not only you, but all your parents and posterity will be saved in the highest degree of heaven. And if you. And if you don't, then, I don't know, you'll be damned. I mean, that's the implication. I don't know whether he said it or not. So it was just an awfully, horribly coercive proposal. So to act like he's like, oh, just think about it, and if it feels good to you, it came with so much coercive baggage.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:14] Natasha, I'm so angry right now. I'm sorry.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:35:17] Let's get rage.

Natasha Helfer [00:35:18] I mean, just going back to even your prior question about how is a 14 year old supposed to be able to developmentally understand the difference between, you know, what a leader is telling her to do versus her intuition. And it is not the job of a 14 year old to even be put in this position. It is our jobs as adults to make sure a 14 year old is not in this position. Right. So that's what makes me ragey to begin with.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] Can I respond to that? Yes. Apologists will say, well, the parents of this 14 year old, like, practically offered their daughter to Joseph Smith. So it's okay because the parents were offering the daughter to Joseph Smith. Is that better?

Natasha Helfer [00:35:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] Is that better?

Natasha Helfer [00:35:57] No, that's not better.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Why not? Parental consent. Why are we laughing? People are always like, john, you're too giddy. And I'm like, why are we laughing?

Natasha Helfer [00:36:08] Well, it's either laugh or cry, Right? And I can cry about this for sure. Yeah. It's obviously, of course, the adults were being coerced as well. So this was a system just baked into coercion for a lot of the same reasons you just said. His leadership positions, the power differentials, these were people's livelihoods. Their monies were involved with Joseph Smith, their livelihoods were involved, their relationships were involved, and their celestial, eternal salvation was involved. So anytime you're going into that type of territory, you have a lot of hold and a lot of power over people's psychology and behaviors, which is the reason we have a lot of these issues, not just in the Mormon Church too. So anyway, but back to the, you know, the LDS people would say, well, the way that the 14 year old decides whether or not she can trust this or not. Is, is she following a true prophet of the Lord, somebody who has true priesthood authority? Well, that falls apart pretty quickly when I know I have worked personally with probably tens, if not hundreds of cases where people were sexually assaulted, violated and abused by priesthood holders, current priesthood holders.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] In the Mormon Church.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:28] In the Mormon Church. And this would include people in positions such as bishops, such as stake leadership, such as young men's and young women's leadership. And then the classic question that comes to me as the therapist that's dealing with the adolescent or the emerging adult who's coming into treatment is, how did this happen if they were called of God? That's what the adolescent or the emerging adult is trying to ask me. Like, how could this happen in the Lord's Church? I was so confused as to what was happening. So the church wants to say, oh, well, those were just bad apples. Those were just bad apples acting in bad faith. Well, guess what? We don't know who's a bad apple and who's a good apple, who has the priesthood authority. Obviously the LDS Church has not been able to figure this out because they're calling them left and right and they're acting in ways that, that is, you know, on the news all the time. So how's a 14 year old supposed to do this? And this is why at the heart of it, the reason why the LDS Church is going to have so much trouble with actually getting healthy around this concept is that they're going to have to let go of this idea that they can do no wrong because they speak in behalf of God. Yeah, they're going to have to give that up. They're going to have to go more with the we make mistakes. And not just 30, 40 years ago, like Elder Oaks wants us to say. But currently there are current things that our current leaders are making mistakes on. And until we can have that type of community, we're going to consistently be in this space of coercion.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] Absolutely. We got a, we got a super chat in. Marlena writes, will these lessons include lessons about consent? And that is the question. Well, we'll be mentioning that again, but Marlena, thanks for that. That question.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:15] Well, they don't.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] They don't and they won't.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:17] They currently don't.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] The only other thing I'll just say, and we kind of joked about it, but like to claim that Joseph didn't want to do this and I'm sure he told people that like, oh, the Lord's making, I think he even claimed that an angel with the flaming sword forced him to. But is it a credible claim? Like, I even, I think I remember, like, letters that he would write to his polygamous wives saying, I'm lonely. I'm, you know, I'm away from Emma, I'm alone. I would love you to come comfort me tonight kind of thing. Does it strain all credibility to make the claim that Joseph just hated this and wanted no part of it?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:40:04] ALYSSA Yeah, I mean, I think it just amplifies the predatory behavior, because Joseph loved blaming it on God to try and seem like he was not involved. I think on, on this side of, of belief, I've. I don't believe that God would have commanded that. I think even people in the church, people like Patrick Mason, don't believe that God commanded it. Which leaves us just with the conclusion that this was Joseph's own desires. And I think that just, yeah, I think we're trying to just, again, kind of pin it on God so we don't have to look at Joseph as having done any wrong, because we kind of want to hold him up as a, as a nearly perfect character. And that is just dishonest for everybody involved.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Yeah, yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:40:57] I'm gonna have a hard time thinking that he didn't enjoy having these types of relationships. I'm trying to stay professional. John Over 30 women, over 30 women in these types of intimate relationships with which, again, a lot of people will say, oh, it wasn't about that. It was absolutely about that. To say, you know, to assume that the concepts and language of marriage, even though they did not use the terms of having sex or fucking back then, like we do today, they did use the terms of marriage and knowing somebody to allude to what we're talking about. So all these arguments about spiritual families and, oh, he married older people, too, so that means he wasn't having sex with them. That you're making assumptions that are just strange to begin with. Why would you use marital sexual language if it wasn't going to be sexual in nature? So, to me, that you just have to be on the wrong side of evidence to try to prove that point. And historically, as far as I know, nobody's really been able to prove that point, that there was no sexual relations.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Now, the women themselves testified that they were having sex, and there was never any posterity. So why were they having sex? Because it's not fun. Like, no, they were having sex because it was fun, because it certainly wasn't about the posterity because there were no children.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:19] Well, maybe it was more about loneliness, John, and less about fun.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Well, can it be about both? Maybe.

Natasha Helfer [00:42:26] Right. So I think. I mean, who knows? We can't be in the psychology of Joseph Smith, although many of us like to think we can be. Just in general human nature. Either people lie to get what they want, which is very, very reasonable in this case, or people start actually lying to themselves and believing a lot of weird stuff of their own just to justify behavior that they would otherwise feel guilty about. So either way, whichever one Joseph Smith falls into, because he was a human, and I'm guessing he would fall into one of those categories, it's problematic for us as the. The people who are living post Joseph Smith era.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] Yeah. All right, well, let's go on to the next frame. Alyssa.

Emma Smith and the Ordeal of Plural Marriage

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:43:13] Okay. This commandment was also hard for Joseph's first wife, Emma. Sometimes Emma helps Joseph decide who he should ask to marry him. Other times, Emma did not want Joseph to marry other women.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Reactions, Alyssa.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:43:27] Oh, so I guess to give the church a teeny, tiny bone here, I'm glad that they acknowledged that Emma wasn't happy about it. That feels like the bare, bare, bare minimum. And it almost feels offensive that that's all they included. But it is a primary lesson. So I said, okay, I'm glad they included her opinion. But we also see, unfortunately, that her opinion doesn't matter in the end and that he went along with it anyway. And. Yeah, and. And I think that kind of seals the deal for us.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] Yeah. And what it's obviously leaving out is that he, he, he married, like, 22 women secretly as polygamous wives before Emma, like, caught him. And then he admitted it, and then he got sealed to her as, like, his 22nd or 23rd plural wife. And to say that she wasn't crazy about it was an understatement. She was furious. But they're completely omitting the fact that he lied and hid these things from her. And if God commanded it, then why was he hiding and lying? So, you know, that's what I think. Natasha, anything you want to add about Emma? Also, Emma denied once he died, Emma denied that he ever practiced polygamy.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:52] I think what we're missing here, what I would like included in the little cartoon, is maybe a version of the power and control wheel, because Emma was not just discouraged or upset about this. She was threatened with her life, and we don't really ever talk about that. Her husband threatened her life if she did not go along with this.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Do you want to tell them what you are referring to or do you want me to.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:17] You can go. You're probably better at the scriptural version.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Well, no, just in D&C,132, when Joseph has to manufacture revelation in response to Emma's fury. Joseph claims that God commands Emma in D&C, 132, to allow Joseph to take multiple wives lest she be destroyed. And. And then God also just happens to tell Emma she can't have any men, but Joseph gets the women, and if she doesn't like it, she'll be destroyed. Right?

Natasha Helfer [00:45:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:49] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:45:49] Yes. And I. My understanding. I'm not a Mormon historian, but I think Porter Rockwell was a fairly effective destroyer of people who didn't go along with things. This was not an idle threat.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:02] This was a threat.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] Yeah, yeah. Like, if somebody did that today. If somebody used that type of language today, could. Could the police get involved?

Natasha Helfer [00:46:12] Absolutely. This is homicidal ideation.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So just really not at all capturing that. Emma's concerns. Right, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:46:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:46:27] Yeah. It feels misleading.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Okay. All right, so you. We got a little segue here.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:46:33] Okay. I didn't mean to put the segue in the middle. I'm gonna put that at the end. So let's just. We'll come back to that in a minute. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Okay. Okay. Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:46:39] So let's go to slide four.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Let's go to the next. Let's go to the next one.

Natasha Helfer [00:46:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] All right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:46:45] Okay. This one, Joseph. And this is also just visually interesting, considering that the idea of plural marriage is about a man with multiple women. And we never see an image of that. Interestingly enough.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] What do we see?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:00] We do see an image of Joseph standing in the center of a group of men who are the 12 apostles, which just kind of made me chuckle a little bit that even in a story that's all about multiple women, we're still quite literally centering a man standing in the middle of a circle of men. So that was just. It was, like, almost funny.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] That is a good point. I didn't think of that. There's no photo of Joseph with his 32 wives or Brigham with his 32. Or even five wives.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:27] Two wives.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:28] We don't see them. We don't. We don't. They're never named. None of them.

John Dehlin [00:47:32] Right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:32] We never hear, it may name one.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] It may name one.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:35] Perhaps they do.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] Okay. Okay. Anyway. Circle of men.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:39] Circle of men.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] Very Mormon. Right, Natasha? Does that look familiar to you, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [00:47:43] I'll just. Just be quiet.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:45] Yeah. We're all very familiar and comfortable with this image. Joseph taught the twelve apostles about plural marriage. It was a hard commandment for them, too.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:53] Darn it.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:47:55] Poor guys.

Natasha Helfer [00:47:56] Also so hard.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] And two things. Number one is, what they're not acknowledging is that Joseph withheld. He kept polygamy a secret, even from members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles, from, you know, general authorities, from top leaders of the church. So he was hiding it from everyone. Now, there were people he let into the deal, but to act like he kind of broadly let everyone know. No, that's not what happened.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:29] Well, and several of the men, I think, found him in a barn. Like in fornication?

John Dehlin [00:48:35] No. Oliver Cowdery.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:36] That's how he found out about it. Where's that cartoon scripture?

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Yeah. Oliver Cowdery, his co president at the time, literally found him in a barn having sex with Fanny Alger again. Or aler. Before even the ceiling power was given, before temple ceilings were even a thing. Oliver called him that, called it a filthy, nasty affair. And then what did Joseph do in response to Oliver catching him in the barn with. With, you know, a domestic helper? Joseph excommunicated Oliver.

Natasha Helfer [00:49:08] But now, that was hard.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Yeah, but. But to. To make it look like he, like, told everybody about it. No, he was hiding it. He was lying about it. He was publicly denying that he was practicing polygamy while he was practicing it. Yes. And so that is very, very misleading. And then there are literally accounts of men, Mormon men, even apostles, complaining to the prophets, saying, you people in Salt Lake, you men are getting all the good immigrant women who are hot. I'm paraphrasing. And, you know, there needs to be some system so that y' all aren't scooping up all the hot ones. You know what I mean? Am I wrong, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:49:51] Unfortunately, you are right.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:49:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] So to act like they're all hating it, you know, just like Joseph, like,

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:49:57] this is the worst. But I would like to find the most attractive women possible. If I have to do this, you better be good.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Yeah. Okay. All right, next one.

Brigham Young and the Saints Practicing Plural Marriage

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:50:11] Okay, now we have an image of Brigham Young with his first wife, Mary Ann, kneeling together in beautiful prayer. And here it says, brigham Young and his wife Marianne prayed a lot to the Lord about what to do. They learned that they should obey the commandment of plural marriage. And I just found that interesting. I mean, I'm glad that we're including a little bit of Marianne. I do think it is misleading because, again, the first wife's opinion seemed basically irrelevant to what ended up happening.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Oh, can I just note that you were absolutely right. They don't mention Any of the wives of Joseph's wife. So you were right. I'm sorry.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:49] Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:50:50] Yeah, no, you're. I mean, they mentioned the first wives. They mentioned Emma and Marianne, but.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] Yeah, because.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:50:54] Yeah. Anyway. But it is interesting also that they specify that they using a plural. They should obey the commandments of plural marriage, meaning that like Marianne had. It was like she was a part of it. This was like this union together, which is also misleading.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:16] Natasha, I think I would just say amen. I mean, I think we're completely missing the coercion piece of this again. Like, these two people are just going to pray and get an answer from God without the cultural systemic framework of what's happening in their day to day world.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] Yeah, yeah. But they got to throw Brigham Young in there because Brigham out. Joseph. Joseph. Because Brigham had like 55 wives. And so you kind of have to mention Brigham. And so they did it with him and his dear sweet first wife. Kneeling in prayer, contemplating plural marriage is a loving, devoted couple.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:51:54] And his hair looks great in this cartoon.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] He's got great hair. So that's good. Okay. All right, next one.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:52:02] Moving on. We have for many years some of the saints were asked to be in plural marriages. And this is, I think, when it starts to get a little bit interesting.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] Oh, it hasn't been interesting so far.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:52:12] Yeah, so far it's been just nothing.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] It's been droll.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:15] Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:52:16] People outside the church did not like plural marriage. They made laws against it. Some saints, including church leaders, were put in prison. But the Lord blessed the families who obeyed his commandments even when it was hard.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Can't leave that word alone.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:52:31] No, they're really doubling down.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:36] I just can't.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Yeah. And you know, okay, Natasha, you were mentioning this previously, but I've actually researched. So my maternal grandmother, Karma Benson Parkinson, she's cousins to former Mormon prophet Ezra Taf Benson, she was the daughter of a third wife. And there were four total wives. In my great grandfather, my great grandparents marriage, there ended up being four wives. My grandma Carma was the daughter of a third wife. And I've studied the lives of the four, my four great grandmothers on my mom's side. Okay. And this idea that the Lord blessed the families who obeyed his commandments. Not true. Not true in my case, not true. So as an example, after my great grandpa had married two of the women, somehow he like, goes off on a mission to Europe while he's got two wives and, you know, kids at home. And one of them was pregnant, one of his wives, they were living in Poverty, you know, impoverished circumstances. While he's gallivanting around Europe, the second wife, if my memory is correct, loses the baby while he's gone. So not only does the baby die, but he's not even there when she's, you know, when she loses the baby. Then when he moves on to his third and fourth wives, it's not like he stayed connected to the first two wives. It was like, okay, they're established, she's older, they've got the nice house and the kids are older, they can help out. He moves on to the younger wives and stops coming around with the older wives. And then, and then the fourth wife, who we brought on late, she ended up, you know, having health problems. They ended up getting divorced. It was this huge public scandal. She got addicted to opiates and she ended up, like, you know, being run off to Oregon, embarrassed in this, you know, Cache Valley Wide scandal, cursing her former husband and, you know, her involvement in the Mormon Church ever. So just in my family's case, it was a disaster for several of the families in many ways. So I don't mean to rant, but, like, that's just what I know of in my immediate family. Alyssa any.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:55:20] Yeah, I mean, I just think from what I've read, it seems like across the board, poverty was a big problem when you have more mouths to feed, especially if the husband is the main one, you know, bringing in money. Like, it was not a super prosperous time for people in the church. The church is super wealthy now. This was not the case then. And I also just think that they're again, kind of like, returning to this, doubling down, that all of this was a commandment, that this was necessary. Not just that it happened, not just that a, a part of our history, but this is from God. And, like, they're really making sure that they are not distancing themselves from that concept either.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:03] NATASHA well, this is a problematic language issue because when you say your family wasn't blessed, when I, when I think about the LDS lens on that is, well, what do you mean by blessed? Because oftentimes in LDS land, it's like, well, if we're being tried, that's part of the blessing. Which is another way that really. Institutionalizes a person's ability to actually deem whether something is harmful for them or not. The LDS Church does not give any allowance for us to think that this is harmful. So they would say, well, those blessings were. The blessings were not monetary, John. The blessings were spiritual. And then when the one lady finally cusses everybody out and leaves for California. Well, then she's unfaithful. See? And so this is where it gets very problematic from a psychological perspective of how to have boundaries with an institution that is basically not allowing you to say this is harmful for me.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] Yeah. Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:57:12] All right, well, and the one last thing I want to say about that slide, I do feel like maybe they're setting up a little bit this idea of antagonism against the church because they have this line saying people outside the church made laws against it. And I feel like, obviously people outside of the church now and even some people within the church are really critical of polygamy. And it seems like this was intentionally slipped in there just as a way to, like, further inside the church versus outside of the church rhetoric. Let's really make sure we're, like, keeping these groups distinct. And I think, you know, children kind of reading this, they're already starting to, like, put good groups, bad groups, you know, separating people into these ideas. And I think this is kind of furthering a problem that is especially prevalent in Utah that I wish was less of a problem, but, yeah, I'm pretty

John Dehlin [00:58:04] sure it was illegal before Joseph ever started practicing it.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:58:07] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:08] Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:58:08] They kind of make it seem like, oh, angry anti Mormons in response.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] To. To kind of stop the Lord's righteous

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:58:16] causes, which is why I was taught, like, Joseph went to prison because anti Mormons were trying to stop the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, I think we have one more. One more cartoon panel. Polygamy for children. Cartoon version.

Cartoon Depictions of Polygamy for Children

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:58:33] Yeah. Beautiful. So here we have people. So there's a pulpit. There's a man at the front of the pulpit in chapel. Looks like he's in church. It's probably Wilford Woodruff.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] He's got his right arm to the. Which has temple implications.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:58:48] Yes, everybody is. Oh, my gosh, I forgot. What. What did they say? Raise your hand and say I or something. Say amen. What do you say in church when you're, like, sustaining something? They're sustaining something.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Bow your head and say yes is what they say in the temple. Yeah.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:59:01] Regardless, they seem to be in agreement.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] They're all swearing with their right hands square.

Alyssa Whitbeck [00:59:08] In 1890, the Lord told Wilford Woodruff, the president of the church, that men should not marry more than one wife anymore. The leaders of the church shared this commandment with the saints. This is still the Lord's commandment. Today. A man should be married to only one wife.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:23] Okay, what does president Oaks have to say about that?

John Dehlin [00:59:27] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:27] President Nelson.

John Dehlin [00:59:28] No, I've got a. I've got a panel on that in just a second. But before I show that even this isn't true in the sense that back then we all know that in 1890, Wilford Woodruff did issue a proclamation telling, you know, the world that the Mormon Church was stopping polygamy. But we also know that for another 15 and 20 years, the Mormon Church knowingly continued practicing polygamy. They did it secretly in Utah. They did it secretly in Arizona and Idaho. They sent people to Mexico to keep practicing it. They sent people to Canada to keep practicing it. And it was apostles, prophets, seers, revelators, top level leaders of the church that continued practicing it for another 15 or 20 years to the point where a second manifesto had to be issued because the government, US government caught on. They didn't want to make Utah a state because Utah, you know, Mormons were hiding and lying about their continued practice of polygamy. And that's why a second manifesto was even needed. And that's all called post manifesto polygamy. And you can look it up and read all about it. But it doesn't even make a nod here to like took them a while to catch on children. But eventually, you know, the members caught on. You know what I mean?

Natasha Helfer [01:00:52] Well, and we currently practice spiritual polygamy. This is what nobody is saying ever except for the one comment every now and then that Oakes or Nelson says about their second wife.

John Dehlin [01:01:03] So what I have here is a photo of Russell and Nelson with the two wives that he's currently sealed to. And you know, this guy is currently 100 years old. He is the president, the number one Mormon in the world. And he is sealed to his late wife in heaven and he's sealed to Wendy Nelson in heaven. And in his belief he will rule and reign as God and goddesses over his own earth with his plural wives. Am I making this up? No, no. And if that weren't enough, the number two Mormon down H Oaks his, his late wife passed and so he has got himself a second celestial wife as well. And they're just doing what Doctrine and covenants section 132 says, which remains canonized scripture.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:54] And I just go ahead.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:01:56] No, you go.

Natasha Helfer [01:01:57] Just to clarify again, if a top woman leader, if her husband dies, she cannot do this. So this is not just, oh, everybody gets sealed in the temple. No, when you are. That is true. Once we're dead, everybody gets sealed to everybody. It seems like that, that seems to be a current practice. But when you're alive, you can only if you're a woman, you can only be sealed to one man at a time. Which on top of it causes all kinds of distress when people are, you know, widowed, especially young widowed, and they're wanting to marry again, especially when they're gonna have children with more than one man. This has caused all kinds of issues for LDS women in the current practice of spiritual polygamy. So let's please just not say that we do not practice polygamy. We do. This was a huge, huge issue that came in my own faith transition 10 plus years ago.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] We practice it, we believe in it. It's canonized scripture.

Natasha Helfer [01:02:55] Well, I felt like I was non consensually invited to the party. Yeah, right. So I got married under false pretense and I was married under polygamous doctrine without me knowing.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] Yeah, yeah. And just to kind of explain it, how I know it, if a Mormon man and a woman get married in the temple and then let's just say they get divorced and then the man takes a second wife and gets sealed to her, the default in the Mormon Church is that both of those wives will remain the possession of the husband in the afterlife. Am I wrong, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:03:32] No, you're right. I think it's especially for people that maybe haven't been raised Mormon, the distinction between marriage and sealing is really important. So if, you know, if a woman wanted her husband dies, she wants to get remarried, she can get remarried. She just can't get remarried in the temple because if she's sealed to her first husband, so she either has to, one, unseal herself from her first husband in the case of like divorce or something, which even then, if you get divorced, it's not automatic that you're no longer sealed to that person. You have to like do all this paperwork, you have to ask the church to unseal you, you have to give

John Dehlin [01:04:08] them justifications, they have to approve it.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:04:11] Which is why a lot of the time, if a woman is going to get remarried, she's going to get remarried in a civil ceremony and like a non temple ceremony. But a man can get married, married in the temple as many times as he wants.

John Dehlin [01:04:21] Yeah, yeah, yep. And a really good reference for this is the book called the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy by our dear friend Carolyn Pearson. There's also been some Mormon Stories episodes if you want the video version. But this, this teaching, it seems ridiculous, but it causes incredible pain and suffering for Mormon women in 2024.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:44] It, it shows up in my practice all the time and like I said, it was devastating for me. Personally as well, when I started realizing what I was going along with without my consent.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:04:55] And I think just not to belabor the point, but I guess I will a lot of the time this is something that's really painful for women and, you know, to kind of feel like you're not as important in your relationship or you don't have any say in this. And even recently, within the past couple of years, Dallin H. Oaks made a comment at, I think it was general conference, it was at least some formal pulpit where he said, yeah, you know, some woman was like basically suggesting that this woman was being really petty because she was worried about if she was going to have to share a house with the second wife. And it was, you know, said in a way to like elicit laughter from the audience. Everybody thought it was funny. And it is just kind of like we are taught when we're thinking about plugging me to kind of laugh about it because it's all going to work itself out in the end and we're going to get to a slide in a minute. That's from the Come Follow me, Come Follow me, Come Follow me manual that is kind of doubling down on this point that, oh, it's all going to work itself out at the end. Don't worry yourself. And the reason why they are saying that is because it is really distressing for a lot of people and it's something that makes a lot of women feel really unseen and unheard. And even now, even within the past couple of years, church leaders are formally kind of like trying to make jokes about it in a way that like, your fears don't really matter. So invalidating. But they're still practicing it. Still a major part of eternal doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Yeah. Yep. So it's a really big deal. All right, so I want to get to the part where we talk about adults being taught about polygamy in 2025 as well. But let's go ahead and take the time to summarize why we, you know, what the problems are, why we think this is harmful list. As a mom, I really want to get your views on why you would, as a, let's just call you a Mormon mom because you're a raised Mormon, you have a kid. Why as a Mormon mom, this would bother you to have your 8 year old or your 3 year old or your 5 year old learn this stuff. And then Natasha is a marriage and family therapist. As a mom as well as a human being as a professional, I want to hear your views. So, Liz, you go first.

Why Teaching Polygamy to Children Is Harmful

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:07:09] I mean it's terrible. I think this is something that honestly I was. It made this. The fact when this scripture story came out, it reconfirmed, okay, I made the right choice, honestly, you know, to not be raising my son in the church because it is so harmful. And the few things I'm thinking that are especially sinister that this story is teaching children is obedience is more important than intuition. This is particularly frustrating because when we're thinking of child development, we're thinking of little kids. This is a major goal that so many parents and teachers are working on, trying to teach their kids how to be intuitive, how to trust themselves, how to trust their body, and is also teaching this idea, basically. I think a big part of my grievance is not only is it normalizing an objectively abusive practice in our history that is really harmful and damaging, not just quirky abusive and harmful, but it also goes against so much of what a lot of parents are trying to do and trying to raise in their kids, trying to teach their kids. I mean, my son is 4 and so I'm just thinking of some of the things that, you know, we're just kind of starting to talk about that we're just kind of getting into things like safe people versus unsafe people, good touch versus bad touch, different parts. You know, being able to not keep secrets, understanding that if an adult asks you to keep a secret, that's not okay. You know, we always need to make sure we have a trusted grownup. Even if a trusted grownup does something that makes you feel yucky, you know, tell another trusted grownup, like these are just the kind of very base level types of things that we're trying to teach our kids that I think are already difficult discussions that are already something that I feel like a lot of parents are like stressed about. And a lot of parents are seeking out resources to figure out ways to do this as effectively and non traumatizing and as healthily as possible. And then for the church to just like slam this story in, that just goes against all of that teaching, against all of that idea of autonomy and consent. And I mean, for me, it makes me angry, especially if I was going because I'm like, really? This story goes against all the things that I'm trying so, so hard to actively teach my child. And especially if I was still Mormon, I'd be like, I want him to go to church and learn. Love everybody, be kind to everybody. You know, I think that's the benefit that primary gives. It gives you community. You get to learn cute songs and then just Having these stories, even if. Whether it's in the specific lesson or it's just kind of like in the sphere of childhood discussions, it just goes against so much of what basic child development is trying to do.

John Dehlin [01:09:54] Maybe I'll just. Maybe we can clear just some of the bullets on the slide, if that's all right. So you've got, you know that women are subservient to men in this lesson. I'll say. I've heard someone say pennies on the dollar, like, women are worth the fraction of what a man is worth just mathematically. In a polygamous setting, obedience is more important than intuition. Men in power might ask you to do something that you're not comfortable doing. Obedience means doing it anyway. I think that's really powerful. Heavenly Father might ask you to do something that makes you feel bad or that's like, egregiously unethical. Right. So they're basically.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:35] That's traumatic.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] Yeah, that's traumatic, right? Yeah. Or the prophets, God's prophets are. Are, you know, doing this type of stuff. And then a list. Do you want to read? The polygamy of essence ignores.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:10:49] Oh, yeah. A lot of what this scripture story is ignoring is the fact that polygamy within the Mormon construct is inherently abusive. It's not people making alternative lifestyle choices. It is, you know, coercion, literal threats of violence. We mentioned this before, but it never names any names of the plural wives. I think this is just not very good conditioning for children. Emma was threatened with death. She did not comply. And that main theme that we've also been talking about, that all this harm base in polygamy was man made, not led by God.

John Dehlin [01:11:32] Says you.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:11:33] Says me, yeah. How dare I? And I think. And also, I mean, I'm just thinking about how confusing this would be for children who are just learning, like, Jesus loves me and learning the basic ideas of what divinity means before we even. Before we even try to break apart any of that. Just thinking, like, these children have so much trust and faith that they have a heavenly father that loves them and Jesus who loves them and is there for them. And then they hear this story, and this person who loves them and loves everybody in the world and would do anything for them and knows everything that they're feeling was suddenly okay with this horrible practice that even if they don't quite understand, they can see. Like, that's weird. And I think that that just kind of blows up that idea of this, like, very innocent, sweet idea of what Heavenly Father and Jesus look like. And I feel like that would be really traumatizing for a child as well, or at the very least, confusing and would ultimately, you know, can change the way a person views their relationship to Heavenly Father, which I think can change the way they view the relationship with themselves or what their roles in the world. Especially teaching. Sorry, now. Now I'm going on a rant. I think, you know, at least you're not spitting. Yeah, barely. Watch out. But I think, like, especially teaching these kids. We already teach Mormon kids that marriage is the only way to make it to heaven. Like, there is no way around that. That is already what we're doing.

John Dehlin [01:13:05] We.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:13:05] We're already setting up girls who are 12 to make toilet paper wedding dresses at church. Like, that's already a thing. And we've criticized. Plenty of people have criticized that. But now we're saying not only that, but, you know, sometimes God commands these kind of weird things, and kind of weird. I'm using basically the language that they're doing. They're trying to be like, it's kind of silly. Ha ha. Like it's. Sometimes he commands these unique things.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] Things. Who knows? No, it's saying inspiring things.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:13:33] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:13:34] Yeah. Okay.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:13:36] So even worse then, I guess now we're teaching kids to be inspired by this idea. And like, maybe this.

John Dehlin [01:13:43] This is an example of faithfulness.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:13:45] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Of deepest devotion.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:13:47] Yeah. And even if it's hard, unfortunately, you know, I'm using that language very specifically. Even if it's hard, it's something that, like, we. We need to do. And I'm just thinking of, like, the ways that kids now might see themselves in these roles more when they grow up. And anyway, it's just. It's just gross. I think there's no way that a parent can be trying. Who's trying their hardest to, like, raise an emotionally intelligent, healthily adapted child. And then just like whomp. I also think there's no way a parent wrote this. A parent that is, like, actively parenting children. They were just like, hahaha. Like, it feels like a PR crisis, you know, a way to inoculate children. Hopefully no one finds it. But if they do, like you said earlier, they can use it there to try and tell people that they weren't lying. But it was definitely not the intention of healthy children in mind when this was being distributed.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] Well, this is one rare instance where I'm going to disagree with you because I think in three to five years, some former church employment employee's gonna come to me and say, hey, remember when Alyssa said that a parent never wrote that? I wrote it now I've left the church.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:14:56] There you go. There you go. Okay, well, if your parents wrote this, I give you grace. Also, what the hell?

John Dehlin [01:15:05] Natasha, you're a marriage and family therapist, a licensed sex therapist, and a mother, and you're on the front lines of what the church's sexual message is. The havoc and the carnage that they have wrought from a couple centuries of all of this sexual weirdness and abuse and perversion that the church has gifted us. So what are your reactions to all of this? You have a rant prepared, I think. With or without spittle?

Consent, Coercion, and Child Safety Concerns

Natasha Helfer [01:15:40] Yeah, no, I have a lot of thoughts for sure. I mean, it was interesting to hear Alyssa talk, talk about basic Stranger Danger scripts that we've been doling out since the 1980s. I mean, 40 years ago we were somehow able to come up with stranger danger ideas. And 40 years post that, we are still managing LDS narratives in such trauma, uninformed ways. Right. And this even goes back to my history with the church. I've. I forget now how many years ago, but it was before I started the Mormon Mental Health Association. I was invited by the Department of Health and Human Services, a chapter of that department that had to do with faith organizations being trauma informed and that the government was actually doing some type of partnership with churches so they could offer trauma informed care. And I was invited to this department. When I asked how did measly little old me get invited to this? They brought up a blog that I was writing at the time called the Mormon Therapist. And they were like, well, we figured you were a professional in your community that was willing to address things because when we went to the church and offered these trauma informed services, they were not that very. They were not very interested. And that was kind of a pivotal moment in my relationship with my own church was why would they not be interested in free government resources with trauma informed trainers to come in. That's what we desperately need in the church. We desperately need that. So you're right that I'm in the trenches with all of my colleagues who are doing this work as well, and with all the members who are coming in with the implications of so much of what we're talking about. And I would like to go down a basic rant and before I do that, I want to say that nothing I'm going to say you can't find on the website called Rainn R A I N N and this is the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, which has wonderful information about sexual assault, sexual safety, effects of sexual trauma, tons and tons of information, plus a hotline for people who are dealing with us in crisis mode and need support. So I just want to shout out to rain, but my basic argument is that Mormon polygamy was a form of sexual assault. Given our current definitions of how we define sexual assault, which includes forced coercion, a lot of times people think of sexual assault is just a physical manifestation when somebody touches your body incorrectly. No, sexual assault can be exhibitionism. That is unwanted sexual assault can definitely include forced coercion where people don't know they cannot give consent because consent is coerced. And some people might confuse this with unwanted sexual consent. I do think that there are times when people will have sex for a variety of reasons, and maybe it's not because they want pleasure out of it, but when you're entering the concept of coercion, we are now past that as well. We are now in the realm of sexual assault. And so what I want to say is that the church doing this story the way they have, they're participating in a story of sexual assault and they are also combining it with classic grooming and power abuse of power dynamics. Right now on that page that is current, that is what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is doing. It's participating in a sexual assault story and framing it so that it's very easy for vulnerable members of the church, especially children and adolescents and even adults, to be groomed and coerced. I am not going to split words on this. This is serious.

John Dehlin [01:19:56] Wow, Powerful. That'll be a short on TikTok and Instagram. I mean, I don't say in any fun way. I'll just add, like, anyone who follows the Mormon Church knows that the Boy Scouts of America went bankrupt because we have like 80,000 reports of child sexual abuse. Just Boy Scouts related, just the ones that have come forward. Now, that number, you may find a different number out there, but it's in the tens of thousands such that the Mormon Church offered voluntarily something like $250 million in a settlement. But child abuse levels in the Mormon Church possibly rival or exceedingly the Catholic Church's abuse of children per capita. So for them to be not owning that blows my mind. Okay, back to you, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [01:20:49] Yeah, so I think I want to just kind of go down a few points just to kind of make my. Make my case. Not only is this what we're doing, but this has like huge effects on people. Right? And I can say it very simply. It has mental, relational, spiritual and sexual effects. Okay. But let's really think about each one of those things. Mental health. We know that sexual coercion and sexual assault lead to depression, anxiety disorders, ptsd, as well as a myriad of other things like complications in eating disorders, complications in sleeping disorders, complications in ocd, complications for religious trauma. I mean, the list of mental health ramifications alone is huge. And I can't even completely cover that. Then you have relational health. And this is what Carolyn Pearson did such a good job in, is that old polygamy, supposedly old polygamy that's no longer in place, was having a current effect on LDS marriages and relationships. And as a sex therapist and a marriage therapist, I have seen this throughout my career, right? Worries about what this might mean, worries about, you know, even jokes that oftentimes the men are making, you know, to minimize, oh, well, if I don't like your cooking, honey, don't worry because in the next life I'll have another life, another wife. These kinds of jokes that we all minimize and think of silly are causing like PTSD symptoms, especially in women. And not all men are thrilled about this either. So I don't want to make this just a totally gendered thing. So it causes a lot of discomfort relationally and relational implications that have to do with trust, with eroticism, with even why we're partnering to begin with, et cetera. Then you have spiritual health, right? Well, if spiritual health, if religion wants to be in this, in the space of health, it has to allow for some level of self determination. It has to allow for some personal relationship with deity, if that's the route you're going to go. And you can't feel threatened by your deity, that if it goes against your self determination, you are now going to be punished by hell. So this is kind of a problem we have in all religions. Most religions, I would say, fall under some type of coercive behavior because if you're not good, you have a lifelong eternity of gnashing of your teeth to look forward to. So this is coercive behavior as humans that we have used. And we do this through myth and through folklore and through religion. This is kind of, you know, the Chupacabras is not Mormon, and it's still there scaring the hell out of little kids because they're not to be naughty, right? So it doesn't really matter what culture you find these kinds of things. And then you have sexual health. And anytime that you have sexual assault or sexual coercion in any form form, you're going to more than likely have much more likelihood of vaginismus. Genital pain disorders. You're going to have potentially an orgasmia. You're going to have kind of PTSD reactions. Dr. Cami Hirsch just did an excellent PhD dissertation on how unwanted sex, even when consensual, leads to PTSD symptoms. And so I have flashbacks. And you, you may want to have sex with this person that you're married to because that's the right thing to do, but your body is having a very different visceral reaction than that. And so these are all the implications as a health provider, as a mental health provider that I am highly concerned about. These are not my ideas. And I can give you 20 different research articles to basically support everything I just said.

John Dehlin [01:24:33] Well, now I see why the church excommunication communicated you well.

Natasha Helfer [01:24:35] It is problematic when I can back it up with actual authority.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] That's a problem.

Natasha Helfer [01:24:41] That's a problem.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] Cut that out. Just kidding.

Natasha Helfer [01:24:47] So, yeah, so that's, I mean, I want to go back to like sexual assault, which includes attempted rape. It includes fondling or unwanted sexual touching. It includes penetration of a victim's body, and it includes forcing a victim to perform sexual acts. And forcing is not always referring to physical pressure. So this is exactly from Rainn. It says perpetrators may use emotional coercion, psychological force or manipulation to coerce a victim into non consexual sex and will use threats to comply. So I think we've made a good case for that already, that this absolutely fits the Mormon polygamy kind of format. And that continues to show up then in this children's story and just the

John Dehlin [01:25:33] common sense test, you know, is there any question that Warren Jeffs belongs in prison? You know, L. Ron Hubbard, Keith Ranieri, David Koresh, like cult leaders, they all do the same thing. They take other men's, they engage in sexual conquest over women who are already married or promised other people or not interested. They use their power to, you know, to engage in coercion and sexual coercion. And if anyone tried to do this today, they'd end up in prison or dead. So why do we give a pass to someone just because it was a couple hundred years ago and because our six generations back ancestors were persuaded by the guy, right? Like he doesn't pass the smell test in any way.

Natasha Helfer [01:26:24] And this, this really poses, I think, a more complex question for LDS members and church leadership is do they want to believe in a God who was okay with things like rape, plunder, murder, sexual assault, forced polygamy, sexual trauma or not? Yeah, it's, it's pretty simple. You Kind of got to either agree that either God's kind of an ass or maybe we got God wrong.

John Dehlin [01:26:48] Mormon God. Mormon God. My Christian friends are always angry at how many Mormons, ex Mormons become atheists and agnostics. And it's, it's because of stuff like this. Like this stuff kills people's belief in God.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:03] And I would also challenge back a little bit because this is not just a Mormon God issue. These issues, slavery, rape, murder, genocide, are all things that we can justify through the Old Testament. Testament God. And so again, Christian God and probably

John Dehlin [01:27:19] at least Muslim God.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:21] Yes. People have to decide if we're going to believe in a God, what kind of God are we going to believe in? And could we as people have gotten that idea wrong to justify a lot of things that people have done throughout the centuries? Right. So going back to Rain, just two more points I want to make and then you can, you can weigh in. They're talking about consent, right? And consent is an agreement between participants to engage in sexual activity. So again, I'm not against the concept of polygamy as a relational structure. What I'm against is coercion in any relationship structure. Right. So polygamy could be done following sexual health principles. I don't know that there's many examples of that throughout history. And I think polyamory is definitely done in sexual health principled ways or can be. That's not really the issue because again, for anybody who's sitting on a monogamous high horse, there's plenty of coercion and similar themes happening in a compulsory monogamous script, which is also what we have in most of Christendom, not just LDS land. So anyway, so consent has to be given, has been agreed to. Consent cannot be given by somebody who's underage. So Even if a 14 year old is going, I think this is a fabulous idea.

John Dehlin [01:28:44] God told me himself, God told me

Natasha Helfer [01:28:46] himself that I should listen to this person who's telling me to have sex with them. They're not capable of giving consent.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] Because does anybody think that those 12 year old girls that Warren Jeff's approached didn't have a witness from God and the Holy Ghost that, that they should sleep with the prophet? Am I wrong?

Natasha Helfer [01:29:04] Well, what I think is interesting about you bringing up the Warren Jeff story is that this cartoon can absolutely be used by that religion as well.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] It will be.

Natasha Helfer [01:29:12] Right. And so if we think, if we're so narcissistic to think, well, of course you should be able to tell if Warren Jeps is lying to you, but President Nelson is not. We have some confirmation bias to deal with and I don't think we're wanting to do that work. We're not wanting to do that work. Okay, so then the next one is if someone agrees to an activity under pressure of intimidation or threat that isn't considered consent. And unequal power dynamics, which you brought up earlier, such as engaging in sexual activity with an employee or student. Those are modern day examples also mean that consent cannot be freely given. So if a prophet who is claiming to speak freely for God isn't the biggest power dynamic differential that we could have with anybody under them, we're again not looking at the issue freely. And there's no way to consent to Mormon polygamy when it's created from this prophet down, God down power dynamic. There's no way to do it.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] Yeah. Wow, that's powerful. I never thought about that. Yeah, Mormon polygamy is the ultimate example of sort of non consensual, abusive, I don't know, finish that sentence. Assault, rape, like.

Natasha Helfer [01:30:37] Oh, I'm calling it sexual assault.

John Dehlin [01:30:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Well, I'll just. Alyssa, you created this slide and we've already kind of touched on these things, but I'm just gonna do a quick quiz. Can we do a quiz? We all participate in a quiz. All right, so in all of it. So together I've got. I have, let's just say I have four and a half decades as a active Mormon. Natasha, how many did you.

Natasha Helfer [01:31:01] My parents, My parents joined the church when I was five. I'm 52 now. So that tells you about 40, 45.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] 45 years. So. And then, Alyssa, how long were you attending church?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:31:12] 23.

John Dehlin [01:31:12] All right, so between us, we've got like over 100 years. Did any of you ever have the good touch, bad touch lesson as Mormons? Alyssa? No. Never.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:31:23] I don't think so, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:31:25] No, never at church, only at school and with my parents.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] Yeah. Me is a no. So for some reason the Mormon church does not want to educate its children about good touch, bad touch, where you are not supposed to be touched by an adult. I wonder why. Okay, the next one. Were any of you ever taught that they're like, some people in the church are safe, but some people in the church are unsafe. Some leaders will be good to you, but some leaders will hurt you, Alyssa.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:31:55] Oh, absolutely not.

Natasha Helfer [01:31:56] Leaders.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:31:56] Leaders are always on a huge pedestal.

John Dehlin [01:31:58] If a leader comes and gets you for young women's or young men's, what do you do?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:32:02] You just follow whatever they're Saying if

John Dehlin [01:32:04] a bishop calls you into his office. What, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:32:07] You go and you answer. Answer their questions and you shut the door, otherwise you'll be deemed unworthy.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:13] This is an absolute never for me. Never.

John Dehlin [01:32:16] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:17] Can I answer with more emphasis? Never.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] Yeah. Yeah. And we. We. Is it not every month that there's a story in the, you know, in the KSL or, you know, in the Utah newspapers or media of some seminary teacher, some bishop, some former church leader abusing a teen or a kid? Alyssa, is that your experience?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:32:39] Yeah, it seems to be increasingly common. And I guess we'll probably jump to this.

John Dehlin [01:32:44] We'll talk about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:32:46] Well, I mean, President Oaks, what he said just a few years ago was so concerning, where he said, even if we are wrong, you're not allowed to tell us that we are wrong. So there's no recourse for being able to. To say, hey, this is a problematic priesthood authority.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] Yeah. All right. Sexual consent. Did you learn about that as a Mormon, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:33:07] Never heard the word, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [01:33:09] No, I just learned about my duty to become a wife and a mommy.

John Dehlin [01:33:12] Yeah. No. Yeah. You know, listening to your body and your intuition, trusting your body and your intuition over all else.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:33:21] I was taught to trust God and trust the Holy Ghost.

John Dehlin [01:33:24] What's the song you sang in Primary?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:33:26] Oh, follow. Obey the prophet. Follow the prophet. He knows the way.

John Dehlin [01:33:29] The prophet. Not like, follow your intuition. Follow your best judgment. Right.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:33:37] Never follow the prophet. Never.

John Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah. Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [01:33:40] No, there was no talks about consent. And in fact, the talks that we were given, I think, were just kind of silly. Like, what was I taught to look for as far as is this person potentially right? For me, it was a list of, like, was he a returned missionary? Was he a man? Of course. Because I'm a woman. Was he potentially going to be a provider for me and my kids? It had nothing to do with. How do you feel? Do you feel comfortable with this person? Do you feel emotionally safe with this person? Do you enjoy feeling sexual attraction for this person? Things that I would definitely want to be teaching my adolescents and emerging adults as they're partnering and considering mating for life.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:34:19] Are they reading their scriptures?

Natasha Helfer [01:34:20] If that's what they want?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:34:24] Is if you want to have a partner, we want to get married. That's just a given.

Natasha Helfer [01:34:29] That's. And that's what we mean by compulsory.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] Yeah. How about don't. How about don't keep secrets from adults?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:34:37] I mean, you go into the bishop's office and he says he's going to keep whatever you say a secret. You you're under the idea that if there's something that you don't feel comfortable telling your parents that you can tell your bishop. I think that in particular is. Is not the safest.

Natasha Helfer [01:34:55] Yeah, yeah. I think there's a lot of indirect implications there. I was never told not to or to, like, that language was never shared with me. But the implication was exactly what Alyssa's talking about.

John Dehlin [01:35:08] Yeah, yeah. And we're a church of secrets. Our most sacred temple ceremony is not just secret. When I went through the temple ceremony for the first time, I literally did hand motions conveying the ways I would be killed by slitting my throat or disemboweling myself or cutting my heart out if I divulge the secrets that I was learning in the temple. So we are a secret protecting church. And that goes back to the polygamy days, weirdly, where we were lying about our polygamy and covering it up and hiding.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:45] So it absolutely goes back to that. And so many of them being tied to Masonic rituals as well, which were also kind of in that concept of you have to keep this secret.

John Dehlin [01:35:55] Yeah, yeah. And how about like, you have the power to say no to a Mormon church leader. That. That power, you know, you should watch out for your Mormon church leaders. Actually. DNC 121 talks about unrighteous dominions, so I guess I'll give the church credit on that. I was taught that Mormon church leaders can abuse their authority, so let's give credit where credit's due.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:36:23] I mean, sure, John.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] No, no, I'm actually, I'm actually serious on that one.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:36:28] Yeah, I mean, I think having like one line in a scripture doesn't necessarily outweigh just how intense we were taught that prophets can do no wrong and that leaders are, you know, being put in their position directly by God. So, I mean, I guess technically you could think maybe they could exhibit unrighteous dominion, but I think that the mass majority of membership is. That's probably lower on the idea of something that feasibly would happen or that you would be considering. Like when you're going into a bishop's office, I don't think most people are thinking, is this bishop righteously using his dominion? I don't think. Especially children.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:08] Yeah, we're definitely not taught that. And this goes right back to a lot of my positions before my excommunication, I would bring up these types of scriptures. I was like, we have, we have scriptural, like basis for actually being able to call ourselves out when we're not acting appropriately. Of course, I Use colorful language. I said, don't be a patriarchal prick. They didn't like that. That came up in my excommunication process was that I was being disrespectful to church leaders. I was like, I'm actually just kind of colorfully restating what's in that scripture. It's like, don't be a patriarchal prick. Don't use your authority incorrectly. I didn't name anybody as patriarchal pricks, but I guess if they took it personally, maybe that's something they need to think about. It's their own projection.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:37:56] Yeah, that's their own issue.

Prophetic Fallibility and Institutional Accountability

John Dehlin [01:37:59] The last bullet you had on the slide was prophetic fallibility. You know, just the idea that prophets, Mormon prophets can make mistakes. And weirdly, recently, the church is willing to kind of allude that prophets sometimes can make mistakes. And I think they're doing that because, again, of the Internet forcing them. But, you know, try and tell a Mormon prophet that they're making a mistake, you'll end up like I ended up or like Natasha ended up. And so it's really not allowed. It's allowed in theory, and only if you're in a position of privilege and only if you're talking about past prophets in a very controlled setting. But if any of us got up in church and said, Joseph Smith goofed up here, Brigham Young goofed up there, or the current prophet is goofing up on this, that or the other, you're toast. You're toast.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:38:51] I mean, I think there's a. I mean, the race and temp, the priesthood and temple ban, I think, is one where the church is like, maybe it was a mistake, maybe it was from God, maybe there was fallibility there. But they still haven't very outrightly that I know of, been like, yes, this was a mistake. And I think I was under the impression, at least, that the church was kind of moving in the Patrick Mason direction, that, you know, that kind of progressive idea that maybe Joseph was a fallen prophet because of polygamy. But then I think just seeing this scripture story that's so recent position to children doubling down, that it was a commandment, I feel like they're kind of backpedaling that prophetic fallibility a bit with this story in particular, because they're so earnest in making sure that we don't second guess Joseph, it'd be better for us to second guess God than second guess Joseph Smith. So it seems like they're maybe tightening their belt on prophetic fallibility still.

Real-World Harms and Abuse Within the Church

John Dehlin [01:39:54] Yeah, well, you know, the next Slide you have here, Alyssa, is why does this all matter? And the first thing that came to my mind, and this is a photo that some won't recognize and some might find shocking. It's a photo of Elizabeth Smart and Brian David Mitchell. And you know, I'm old enough to remember when Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped from her bedroom by this weird prophet looking Mormon guy who had a beard and he took her up into the mountains and raped her for months or longer. And again, she was just a child at the time. And he absolutely claimed that God told him to do this. And how was Elizabeth Smart supposed to know that he was lying when a man in power, you know, is telling her that God said she needed to obey? And when her own ancestors and I know because we share some ancestors, Elizabeth Smart and I, how was she to know when God was really requiring it of her? Of her? And when he wasn't? And of course she submitted. And that's a really dark story. Alyssa, you've got another example that just came out, just like last week.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:41:11] Yeah, this came out just a couple days ago. It was December 13th. But basically the main idea is Salt Lake county man charged with arranging to meet 13 year old for sex in Lehigh.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Yeah. And as I understand it, it's not just a Salt Lake county man. I think this article was kind of sanitized by the church. But wasn't it a youth leader?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:41:36] It was, it said a Mormon church youth leader. Yes. So the few things that I think are just worth noting for the sake of this conversation. Well, basically police were suspicious of him, so they pretended to be a 13 year old girl and were chatting with him online. The man was advised that he was chatting with a junior high student, to which he replied, it's okay. He was sent photos of the alleged child and highly complimented her looks before making sexually charged statements about her. He expressed via text that he is married, understood he should not be chatting with a minor, and his fear of going to jail, basically. Then they arranged to meet up. There was a police officer there instead of the girl. And I think what is also interesting is that we say officials asked the courts to hold Spencer without bail because during the arrest he told them he works with boys and girls between the ages of 15 and 17 years old in a church setting. Yeah, and that definitely seems to be a recurring theme when sexual assault happens in Utah to minors. Oftentimes seems like there is a church tie in which is again, it's sinister because people are taught, we're taught that if a person has a priesthood, we should trust them. And it's just particularly dark with that lens.

John Dehlin [01:43:05] Yeah. Yeah. And you also have a slide that basically says, this is not a new problem. Yes, one. You know, one story that I've heard repeatedly, I interviewed my friend David Christian, who served a mission in Australia in the late 70s, early 80s, and sure enough, his mission president called several sister missionaries to be his polygamous wives as a mission president. And that's not the only time that's happened in the modern era. But you've got, I think, this article from Michael Rosendez. Do you want to tell us about that?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:43:36] Yeah. So this. This blew up. I can't a couple years ago now, I guess, but it's that, oh, 2022, the Michael Rezendez AP article, Seven Years of Sex Abuse. How Mormon Officials Let It Happen. And I didn't include much of the article because I think it's something that, if you're not familiar with it, you should go read it. But basically, the idea that the LDS Church has had a workaround so they don't have to report child sex abuse. He investigates the hotline that they're using. Anyway, it really blew up, and the church was in hot water for quite a while. And I just found it interesting that two years later, after this, after they were being accused of covering up church child sex abuse, that then they just kind of like, quietly drop this story that is a story of sex abuse. And they, of course, don't name that outright, but it just seems. It just seems odd. Honestly, I. I'm. I'm kind of baffled that this is the. The direction that they're taking.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:34] Seems risky. Legally risky.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:44:36] Yeah. And, you know, even now, children are slowing as sexually explicit questions by their bishops. Sam Young was excommunicated, I don't know, three years ago, probably. I can't remember, but he was excommunicated for. He was a bishop. Many of you have probably heard this story as well. He was excommunicated after basically saying we shouldn't have minors being asked sexually explicit questions by a bishop behind closed doors. On one. On one. And the church excommunicated him. And they made a minor change where they said, okay, fine, if you ask to bring a parent in, I guess you can. I don't know how prevalent that is. I don't know how often.

Natasha Helfer [01:45:12] I doubt it's very prevalent because that is like.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:45:15] I mean, that's a. That takes the initiative of the child, you know, or even the parent. But either way, it's not the person in power that is the one Institution.

Natasha Helfer [01:45:23] It's not an institutionalized change.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] Yeah. Really quick. There's a, there's a comment from a viewer. Gregory Turnbow writes, Angela Davis said, quote, I'm no longer accepting the things I cannot change. I'm changing the things I cannot accept. My opinion. Never let LDS people think their beliefs are okay. It's not okay. Good show. Thank you, Gregory, both for the comment and the super chat. Yeah, yeah, this is, this is really, like, I joke, but they should hire an ex Mormon to just vet this stuff. And honestly, I would take the church's money to tell them not to do stupid things. Would you, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:46:10] Yeah, hire me, please, Natasha, you know,

Natasha Helfer [01:46:13] we've actually offered it for free.

John Dehlin [01:46:14] Yeah, exactly. Like, let us pay you. We'll save you from the headaches. Like I'm, you know. Okay, bets. Alyssa, Will this be taken down within the next month or two?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:46:26] Ooh, that's a good question.

John Dehlin [01:46:28] What's your bet?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:46:29] I think it's going to get taken down.

John Dehlin [01:46:30] These are going to get taken down. I do. Natasha, what do you think?

Natasha Helfer [01:46:33] I would bet that it's going to stay up. It may be revised, but I don't think they're going back to the land of we're not going to talk about the thing. Kind of like the seer stone. Right. And the hat. They now have that in cartoon form as well. They're not going to go back. But what I don't see them capable of doing is actually changing Mormon doctrine because so much of what's currently at play. Play relies on, like I said, spiritual polygamy. And so I don't see it changing much, quite frankly. That's my thought. And I do have a few thoughts about grooming. When you're ready.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] Yeah, yeah. So does this qualify as grooming?

Natasha Helfer [01:47:10] Yes, absolutely. So even the examples that you're showing, like the Elizabeth Smart example, the, the recent example, just what's being shown on this cartoon, what was happening before, and even our conversation about not being able to challenge LDS leaders, because it's so interesting with the Sam Young and with my case in particular, I think, well, many cases it's not so much that we denounced Mormon theology or that we denounced our testimonies. We were denouncing policy and policy was going against the leaders. And so in both, I think my apostles apostasy charge and also Sam Young's apostasy charge, it was very much this idea that you're going against church leaders, which I'm like, yeah, isn't that part of sustaining church leaders when you know that they're making huge mistakes, saying there's a problem, but they didn't buy that. That was not an okay enough reason.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:48:08] So they were still caught up on you calling them a patriarchal priest.

Natasha Helfer [01:48:11] Well, that too. Yeah. That really, that really. Yeah, that really pricked them. Anyway, but this idea of grooming. So again, going back to Rainn's definition and the patterns that they say, one of the patterns of grooming is that you're gaining access and isolation of the victim. And what you're describing just in a church interview where a bishop is going to ask sexually inappropriate questions that fits that grooming criteria to the T. To the T. You now have access to a vulnerable person. And you know, I think many bishops don't take advantage of that. Many bishops have and other people who will mimic those types of meetings as well. And so you have a huge problem there. I also want to say that over 90% of sexual assault happens with people that we know. So that's another thing is that grooming requires for the person to have trust. And this is what the church is saying, trust us, trust the Lord, trust Joseph Smith, trust your bishop, trust the young men's leader, trust the young women's leader, trust them over yourself time and time again. So now we have this trust issue, this gaining access issue. Now there's victim selection. Right. So how do groomers and perpetrators usually select victims? They're usually vulnerable. They're usually maybe got some type of developmental issue or emotional issue where that makes them a more vulnerable victim than others. So when I think about a 14 year old in Joseph Smith's home who's actually dependent on her living and eating and ability to survive on this family who's taking care of her or foster

John Dehlin [01:49:54] children, that is his parents have died.

Natasha Helfer [01:49:57] So now we're looking at very vulnerable victims. Right. And so you just. And then desensitization. This is what's happening in this cartoon. It's desensitizing a problematic thing, which again, I'm realizing so many years later that this is what happened to me for years. For years as an LDS member, I would have said many things to defend the church in this particular situation. What I'm realizing now is that I was being desensitized to my own discomfort because again, Natasha, your discomfort is prideful. It's egotistical, it's influenced by the world. So you have to ignore those discomfort, uncomfortable feelings and instead be humble and go along with and say yes even when you want to say no. So these are grooming tactics 101. And then the last point that they make is they attempt to make their behavior seem natural to avoid raising suspicion. Well, what is this cartoon doing? More than anything, it's making it natural. Sometimes this happens. Sometimes God just wants you to totally ignore your bodily autonomy and go with this man and fuck him in the barn. That's sometimes what is going to happen. And that is normalizing.

John Dehlin [01:51:18] Sometimes God's gonna want that.

Natasha Helfer [01:51:20] Right. And desensitizing behavior that is absolutely atrocious and abusive and making it normal.

John Dehlin [01:51:28] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:51:30] So thank you, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, for making sexual assault normal and blaming God on top of it. Shame on you.

John Dehlin [01:51:37] For children. Two children.

Natasha Helfer [01:51:39] Shame on you.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've got some cartoons of sort of satirical responses that I think we're going to save for another episode. So just because, you know, we're almost at two hours and Mormonism Live is on right now. And I want to tell all of you, switch right over to Mormonism Live now or as soon as we're done, because it's a great show and we don't want to step on their great programming. But, Alyssa, you had mentioned that they're not just teaching polygamy pro sort of polygamy affirming messages to children in the 2025 curriculum, they're also teaching it to adults.

The 2025 Come Follow Me Manual and Closing Thoughts

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:52:16] They are. Yes. So Gerardo pointed this out earlier that I thought was really useful distinction. So this story that we, the cartoon we've been talking about, that was under the Scriptures stories category on coming to Christ.org it's within, like the overall scripture library. And then we have the Come Follow Me manual, which is a lesson manual for Sunday school. They used to have it divvied up into primary lesson manual, Young Men, Young Women Manual, Adult manual. Now it's just one big Come Follow me manual. And it's the. For Sunday school. And it's also the. If you do home, church, like family study, it's the same. The same shtick. Okay. Which is also interesting because now there is a lesson specifically on plural marriage. It's on DNC 132. We can see that's what this lesson is called. And if you want to get a head start on your Come follow me homework for 2025, this is going to be November 10th through 16th that week. And the main quote they're pulling out from that is, I have seen your sacrifices in obedience. And as do DNC 129 to 132, which we know that 132 is the main horrific polygamy section. So I just wanted to read just a section that this is in the. The current manual that is being taught to everybody, including children, including adults. Sometimes God may ask us to do things that seem uncomfortable and unreachable. For many early Saints, plural marriage was one such commandment. It was a severe trial of faith for Joseph Smith, his wife Emma, and almost everyone who received it. To make it through this trial, they needed more than just favorable feelings about the restored gospel. They needed faith in God that went far deeper than that. The commandment no longer stands today. Okay, but the faithful example of people who lived it still does. And this example instead inspires us. And we are asked to make our own sacrifices in obedience. So I think part of what is just so infuriating about this piece of the Come Follow Me manual is it's the same story that the children are being taught, which is it's not only telling the history. I do think members should be informed about the history, that it is part of informed consent and being raised Mormon, I think we should understand that polygamy happened, but the way that they're twisting it to have a lesson and not only have a lesson, maybe the lesson could be like, yeah, sometimes good people do bad things, and sometimes we have to trust ourselves over trusting authority or something like that. Instead, the message is obedience, even when it doesn't feel good. Obedience is more important than anything else. Obedience, even when every single person involved is miserable and feels like it's immoral. If God wants it, you should do it. And, okay, this might be the first time Bluey, the little kid TV show, has ever been quoted on Mormon Stories podcast. But this is how you know that I am in the trenches of young motherhood. Because that's what I was thinking of when I was reading this. There's. There's an episode and. And the mom, the mom dog is talking to her child dog. And her. One of the things she says is, did your outside voice say yes when your inside voice said no, or really meant no? And I loved it. I loved the way that was kind of describing, like, coercion or being pressured. And I think I thought it was just such a good way of kind of like describing to children what it means to kind of, like, understand and also for other children to have empathy with each other if it seems like someone is resistant, but they're saying something they don't mean anyway, I loved that. And I'm like, oh, this is such a nice thing that we want our children to be learning and this just kind of flies in the face of that because it's basically saying, does your inside voice say no, but an older man tells you that God says yes, then do it anyway, and for generations to come, people will be proud of you for it. It is just completely against what I think anybody. Children, adolescent, adult, should be taught.

Natasha Helfer [01:56:31] And it's.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:56:32] It's yucky.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] So Bluey won Mormon church leadership in 2024. Zero, is what you're saying.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:56:38] And I have a feeling this is going to continue because Bluey is great.

John Dehlin [01:56:43] All right, well, what a fantastic panel, Alyssa. Thanks for, at a moment's notice, dropping everything and preparing those slides and that analysis.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:56:54] Yeah, of course. This is. This is pretty important stuff, I think. I think it's important to think about how this is impacting our children. Right now.

John Dehlin [01:57:03] We're getting a ton of I love Bluey comments.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:57:05] Everyone should love Bluey. I love Bluey as a takeaway right now.

John Dehlin [01:57:11] And we are not officially endorsed by Bluey. Just for a minute, Bluey.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:57:14] If you'd like to sponsor us at Marmont's Stories podcast, we would love to be a part of that.

John Dehlin [01:57:21] All right. All right. And how do people follow you, Alyssa?

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:57:25] Yeah, well, I guess I'm on TikTok anymore. If you want to, you can for a month. My TikTok is at list likes words. More importantly, just check out my website. It's Alyssa Whitbeck dot com. It has my writing on there and email and whatever.

John Dehlin [01:57:38] And that's Alyssa. A L Y S a L Y

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:57:41] S S A. Yep. Whitbeck with no H. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:57:44] Natasha, thank you for bringing your expertise and truth bombs to Mormon stories. Again, we love you.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:52] Well, thank you for having me. You know, I'm always happy to be here, and this is really serious stuff. I really care about this. Sometimes I do think we deal with it with humor. And humor, a lot of times is a way to deal with anger and pain and sadness.

John Dehlin [01:58:05] You dropped at least two F bombs today.

Natasha Helfer [01:58:07] Well, I guess it's my MO And I have to think about my professional comportment, but I think it's perfectly professional to have some righteous anger plug your stuff. Yeah. Well, and even before I would say that, I would really invite everybody to think about how what we're really talking about today is both religious and spiritual abuse. And it's so interesting that the field of religious trauma is blowing up, like in the last decade, I would say. And ever since Dr. Marlene Whannell kind of start talking about this issue, I think we all, whether we're believing members, whether we're atheists, whether we're in a church organization or not, it is. I would be very surprised if you are not affected by religious spiritual trauma in our lives, just from the many stories we've heard growing up, from the many ways we've been kind of taught compulsory aspects of sexuality, including what orientation we should be and what relationship structures we should be in. If not, you know, culture and God in particular are going to be very angry with us. So I would just invite everybody to sit with that kind of idea and consider how it might be affecting your life. And then if I'm going to plug my stuff, well, I run a group practice. We're training sex therapists out the wazoo as much as we can. We need them desperately here in Utah. I'm doing that through the organization of ASEC. And you can find me at natashahelfer.com and you can find our practice@simcounseling.com and we would love to be able to either help you or help you find resources that if we're not a good fit, you can. You can still get resources from us.

John Dehlin [01:59:50] Beautiful. All right, well, thanks to you both. Hope to see you back soon. Thanks, Alyssa.

Alyssa Whitbeck [01:59:55] Absolutely. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:59:56] Thanks, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [01:59:58] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] And thanks to all of you today for joining us on Mormon Stories podcast. Huge thanks to our donors. You make all this possible. We couldn't do this without you. So for those of you who donate, thank you. For those of you who want to be donors, who want to see this type of content continue super easy. Go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep doing this stuff for as long as y' all are willing to support. Huge thanks as well to Julia and Maven and Brooklyn and Gerardo, Margi and the whole Mormon Stories podcast, Team Nemo, et cetera. To our board and always to our listeners, there are ways to support us. In addition to donating. You can subscribe to this YouTube channel. You can like this episode. You can comment, you can share it. Share it with the world. Share it with all your Mormon friends. I'm sure they'll love getting a Mormon Stories episode in their inbox. Honestly, they probably never heard of Mormon Stories. But anyway, feel free to share. We also are on TikTok for at least the next month. Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook. We're on all the social medias. There's a new one called Blue Sky.

Alyssa Whitbeck [02:01:15] That's what they're saying.

John Dehlin [02:01:16] Yeah, I signed up, but we don't do anything there yet. But anyway, subscribing and following us on those platforms is always helpful as well. If you want to be a guest on Mormon Stories podcast or even a panelist, there's a way for you to now go up to MormonStories.org fill out the form, do a little demo video and give us your best case for why you think you'd be a good guest or panelist. So we invite you to do that and we always love your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have ideas on good episodes, good ideas for people we should interview, criticisms, whatever, we'll take it. Just be kind and yeah, mostly be kind to each other and be good to each other. Thanks for tuning in and we've got more good stuff coming up in the days, weeks and months ahead, so stay tuned, take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.