Welcome and Introduction to the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It's January 4th, 2022. It's the first Mormon Stories recording of the new year. So happy New Year to all of you. We're really excited to have you with us today. And I'm excited to have with me in studio my dear friend, Clint Martin. Hey, Clint, John.

Clint Martin [00:00:23] What's up? Good to be with you. Happy years again.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] Yeah. Hey, Natasha Helfer's in the house. Hey, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [00:00:30] Super happy to be here. Happy New Year, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] And we have the one, the only, Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:00:37] Hello, friends. I am among friends today. Everyone please tune in and join the friends.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Happy New Year.

Carah Burrell [00:00:44] Happy New Year, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] Yeah. And we're live streaming to our audience. So we welcome all of you. Today we're going to be basically addressing and answering a second round of questions given to us by the Salt Lake Tribune by Peggy Futzer and Tony Semirod. Because we answered a first set of questions that they gave us, you know, about a month or so ago. And we are taking the time to answer a second set of questions. But before we do, we have one quick public service announcement. It's why I'm wearing my Thrive hat. We have a super exciting event coming up called Thrive unite, which is January 22nd and it's happening in at least 22 cities. And Clint, you're kind of the brainchild of this. Do you want to give a quick one minute promo of Thrive Unite? Anything you want to say about it?

The Thrive Unite Event Across 22 Cities

Clint Martin [00:01:30] Yeah, John, it's amazing to see all the work that people have gone to to put together an event in 22 cities simultaneously on January 22nd. Since we were on last time, we added Ogden, Utah, we added Charlotte, North Carolina, we added Omaha, Nebraska. That's close to your hometown, Natasha. We added Chicago, Illinois, Louisville, Kentucky, we added Washington, D.C. and Denver, Colorado. We're so excited. You know, we've got a bunch of other cities, Northern Southern California, we've got Canada, we've got the uk We've got Seattle, Portland, Phoen, Phoenix. We've got an amazing lineup in Phoenix, Atlanta, Houston, Las Vegas, Provo, of course, Kansas City, Albuquerque. And our good friends up in Idaho Falls, you know, they've gone to a lot of work to put together amazing programs. They've got speakers coming in from all over the place. So this is a great chance to build local community to find people near you that have left the church, that want to help support you, understand your journey with you. So go on the website thrivebeyondreligion.com find your closest city. Grab a ticket. January 22nd. It's coming right up.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] I love it. And you know, just to give people idea, you can meet Radio Free Mormon at the Seattle event. You can meet our own Carah Barrel NuanceHoe along with Alan and Katie Mount and others at the Sacramento event. You know, we've got Bill Real at Las Vegas. We've got Anthony Miller and Jesse Funk and Randy Bell in Southern California.

Clint Martin [00:02:57] Like, so don't forget about Tiffany Rowe. Don't forget about Arizona. Yeah, Young. Sam Young.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Right, Sam Young.

Clint Martin [00:03:04] I mean, the list goes on and on. Mark Osland, Marco.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] Yeah. So just so many cool people and all you got to do is just go to thrivebeyondreligion.com find a city near you. And how do they find the speakers for each event? Is there a way?

Clint Martin [00:03:20] Yeah, that's a great question, John. We're still working with our web developer to put together each of the flyers. So most of the flyers are posted in their local Facebook groups, but I'll make sure that we get that on the website so they can find the list of all the speakers at each of the event. They can decide where in the country they want to fly to.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] Yeah. You said Sam Young's in Houston, right?

Clint Martin [00:03:38] Sam Young's in Houston and a lot

John Dehlin [00:03:40] of other great people.

Clint Martin [00:03:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] Okay, so please support that event. It's going to be fantastic. January 22nd. More to come on that. All right, so what is today's episode about? He. I'll give a quick summary. So about right before Thanksgiving, I was contacted by this gentleman named Tony Semirad of the Salt Lake Tribune. And if I'm being honest and I'm going to be very calm and loving and compassionate, it was basically saying, john, we want to interview you for an article in the Salt Lake Tribune, and we want to talk about Thrive in the Open Stories Foundation. But the list of questions that they provided, they, you know, Tony provided like 10 questions. He said that he was partnering with Peggy Fletcher Stack on this, on this story. And it appeared to me and to everyone on the Thrive board and on the Open Storage foundation board that all of these questions were sort of coming from an intent that, that we, we, we were concerned about. There was not a single question about, like, how many people came to Thrive? How much did they love it? What were the positive takeaways? Why are you doing Thrive? What are you trying to accomplish? Zero questions about that. And questions like that seem to be getting at. Is there a financial conflict of interest between the Open Stories foundation and Thrive. Is Thrive some sort of profiteering moneymaking scheme to make money off of people's pain, etcetera, etcetera. So I was eager to answer those questions, but I wanted to answer them fully and thoroughly. And so I answered them in a Mormon Stories podcast episode that we released, you know, right after Thanksgiving. It was a little bit salty, it was a little bit defensive, but we answered every single question that we received. And I think it probably, it probably is experienced as a little bit sharp elbow to Tony and Peggy, if I'm being candid. And, and again, that's just kind of sometimes maybe a bit of my defensiveness when I'm feeling attacked and worrying about maybe people's intentions to smear. So anyway, that happened and I think maybe as a result of that, or maybe it was always their intent. Almost immediately after that episode, what we received was a second set of questions. And of course, those questions were, were the ones, are the ones that we're going to be addressing today, but they were all the types of questions we wished we had been asked to begin with, like, why did you do Thrive? What are, you know, what are you seeing? Why is there a need for Thrive, how is it meeting those needs, etc. So that's what today's going to be about. I will say just one quick thing, and that's that we were very, very eager because Thrive is not John De Lin led. Thrive is board led. Thrive is led by Clinton, Jenny Martin, Natasha Helfer, Lisa Hacking, and myself. But I'm a minority participant. And I'm also, I'm doing a very small share of the total work. So we were very eager for Peggy and Tony to call and interview Clinton and Jenny Martin, Natasha Helfer, Lisa Hacking, other people that were involved in really making the Thrive event happen. And up until now, they've declined to, to interview any of the real leaders behind Thrive. For some reason, they only wanted to talk to me. And so that that offer extends to this day, they have still not chosen to take us up on that offer. And what, what is valuable about having Natasha and Clint here is they can not only speak to Thrive because they're both board members of Thrive and active participants. And in Clint's case, he's doing the lion's share of the work. But also Natasha has been a, a participant in the Open Source foundation pretty much since the beginning, very, in fact, in fact, since the very beginning, so she could talk about the Open Stories foundation as well as Thrive. And Clint currently serves on the board of The Open Source foundation, as well as on the Thrive board. So we've got all the main players, all the people that know everything that's going on here in the room. Now, Clint, do you want to add anything in addition to what I said? Just about the. The past engagement. And I know you've talked to Peggy and Tony directly, and we want to be kind and loving and charitable and, you know, so is there anything you want to add to this?

Clint Martin [00:08:09] Yeah, so just to give the listeners really quick, a little bit of context, so I did get a chance to talk to Tony and to Peggy. What I suggested is that we do a sit down, lunch meeting with the three of us along with the two of them. And that way we can kind of spend some time, have a good dialogue, answer their questions. That way they could follow up with us. You know, Tony seemed agreeable to it. And then when I spoke with Peggy, she said that she didn't want to devote that kind of time to this topic, that this is really a short article and it didn't deserve that kind of attention. So, you know, we'll take it as it is. Tony had sent over the questions, so our purpose today is to answer them. I did reach out to Tony again, but I haven't heard back from him. So hopefully this gets a chance to answer their questions, may bring up something that they find interesting and they'll want to explore the topic further.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Yeah, beautiful. And if I could just summarize the main gist of their questions. You know, the relationship between the Open Stories foundation and Thrive is that it's two independent nonprofits that share some board members, but share a common mission. We set, as we set up Thrive to be independent because we didn't want it to be viewed as an Open Stories foundation entity. We wanted to be its own thing. There's no inappropriate financial relationship between the Open Storage foundation and Thrive. I think we demonstrated that. And Thrive as of today is a massive money loser that's lost tens of thousands of dollars and basically Clinton, Jenny Martin have footed that bill. So any questions around like making money off of people's pain and profiting off of people's pain, I think we dispatched with all of that by showing actually the financials of the Thrive of the most recent Thrive event in detail. And so I don't know if there's anything else we want to summarize about the last episode.

Open Stories Foundation Finances and Transparency

Clint Martin [00:10:04] Well, and the beautiful thing, John, is unlike many churches, 501c3 nonprofits actually publish a 990 every year. And so you can jump Right. On the government's website, IRS.gov and you'll be able to find the 990 for the open Stories Foundation. I reviewed it myself. The accountant reviewed it. Everything's in order. Thrive was formed this year, so it'll be filing its 990. You can look at all of the donations, everything that we spent money on. You can see that what we're saying is true. We're completely transparent with our finances. After each event, I send out a summary just so that attendees know how it played out. So we're extremely transparent. And unfortunately, most churches don't meet that same standard.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] Yeah, beautiful. Okay, so hopefully that answers the questions. We are having Carah monitor the. The comments on Facebook and YouTube and the questions. And we, we do, because of our commitment to transparency and our love for the community, we are welcoming people to ask questions. And we're going to ask Carah to monitor that and to. To ask credible questions in good faith to us, and we'll answer them openly and directly. And we let Peggy and Tony know we'd be doing this episode. So hopefully they're. They're tuning in. All right, so what we're going to do now, I have a printout of Tony's email, and we're going to answer every question. So there's not going to be a question here that we don't answer in some way, shape or form. Hopefully this will be interesting to you. I think there are a lot of good questions here, and I think this is going to be actually an interesting thing. And, Natasha, I'm really happy to have you here as well, because you've got. So, you know, you basically have given your life to being a therapist and a coach to people in faith crisis. So you, you live at the center of why both the Open Stories foundation and Thrive exist. And so I guess I also just want to give you a chance to do an opening statement. Is there anything you want to say is kind of an opening statement before we jump into the actual questions?

Natasha Helfer [00:12:04] Okay. I wasn't prepared for an opening statement. I'm currently a board member of the Thrive Foundation. It's probably been about five or six years since I was a board member of the Open Stories Foundation, I believe. And yes, I have been around a long time doing this work. So I've been around watching many organizations, whether it's Sunstone or Open Stories or Thrive or Affirmation or the Mormon Mental Health association, which I helped found. Many, many associations and organizations try to be part of the solution for faith transitions and people out there and so whether that's community led, therapist led, member led, it's. It's been a journey. And it's resources that are, that are widely needed, especially in any type of faith community that is considered high demand or conservative, you know, from a conservative religious community. We're not the only religious community that is going through similar changes. And we see this in kind of the Bible Belt, where I've spent, you know, over a decade and a half of my last life before I moved here to Utah in the last two or three years. And so we see this, you know, in Pentecostal communities and Jehovah's Witness communities and kind of high demand evangelical communities, Orthodox Jew, Orthodox Jewish communities, some, some Catholic communities. It depends again, on kind of the level of Orthodoxy in some of these communities. So anytime you have faith transitions from high demand religions, you have a lot of pain within the communities at large. And therapists are in the mix of trying to help those families. Marriages. A lot of mixed faith marriage work happen. A lot of mixed faith family work, a lot of individual work, a lot of identity work, a lot of sexuality work. A lot of my work is around sexuality. I became a certified sex therapist about over a decade ago now, largely due to religious concerns around sexuality and transitions around religion. So it's interesting that my sexuality is also very much tied to my work around religious journeys. So that's how I come into this work. And I doubt that there's something out there in Mormon land that has to do with faith transitions that I'm not at least aware of or have been involved with somewhere along the road. So. Because I've been at this for over 20 years. So, yes, thank you, John, for that opportunity.

Why Thrive Exists and Who It Serves

John Dehlin [00:14:45] All right, let me ask the one question I wish. It's not on this paper, but it's the one question I wish they would have asked. And we're going to get into this a little bit, but I'm just going to ask it right at the top. Why? Why is thrive even necessary? And why are we doing thrive? I wish Peggy and Tony had asked that. Clint, you know, you've got a lot of things you could be doing. You could be running businesses. You know, you have several car dealerships. You, you've got a family that you love and care about. You like to have fun. Why would you want to spend 10, 20, 30, 40 hours of your week or more and literally 50, 60, 70 grand of your money in just one year? Why would you want to spend all that time and money to do thrive? Why?

Clint Martin [00:15:29] Yeah, John, that's A great question, and I guess the answer is just the need is so massive. I mean, when you see the people, the tears in their eyes, and, you know, the pain in their hearts, I mean, you know, I grew up Mormon. I grew up helping. I mean, helping people is part of my identity. And this is a space where my wife and I feel like we can make a difference, where we can really give back, you know, And I know a lot of the listeners feel the same way. It's amazing to me how many people volunteer to help us out with this work. So it's not just us. It's amazing to see how many people are interested in getting involved and giving back and helping people navigate this faith crisis. I mean, a faith crisis sounds like, you know, like, not a big deal. But the analogy that someone told me at one of the. The support groups was, it's like having your skeleton pulled out of your body. And that's what a faith crisis is like. It's massive. Like, you lose your identity. That was what you held on, held on to and framed your whole existence on for your whole life. So it's. It's a massive problem. So that's why we do Thrive.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] Okay. And. And Natasha, I know that you're. You kind of. You kind of see clients every day in your practice marriages, individuals. And do you want to add anything to why you wanted to be involved in Thrive and why you think something like thrive is even necessary?

Natasha Helfer [00:16:54] Yeah, I think what was exciting for me about the vision behind Thrive and talking with Clint and Jenny as I got to attend some of their first events was there's one thing in working towards the crisis part, which is what I do in my office every day, and that is the difficult work, because as Clint was just saying, so much of what a religion will do is form your identity. So much of what we see ourselves as, the decisions we make, who we marry, how we parent, who our community is, has to do with how we identify religiously. So when that is pulled away, you're left with a lot of void. And that's what shows up in my office. As you can see, though, the name of the organization isn't Crisis. Right. The name of the organization is Thrive. So what. What I really enjoyed about the vision of this organization is what happens after that initial work of what's being done in my office. It's thriving after that initial crisis point. And that's something that isn't always done in my office. Sometimes. Sometimes people stick around in therapy to do the thriving piece. But I think what I really enjoyed about the vision was what happens past the crisis point, past that initial maybe three months, six months, 18 months, maybe three years, maybe five years. Points of time that it takes to get past that initial kind of really difficult dark night of the soul, as sometimes it's called in kind of faith crisis lang, and get past that to that space of exploration and adventure and discovery and new community. And a lot of times when we talk to people within the Thrive communities, that's what they're really searching for and hungry for and craving. And I always say the Mormon community is good at offering community. Right? Many, many religious organizations are good at offering community. So if you're leaving faith, faith spaces, that's oftentimes what you need help rebuilding. And I think Thrive as well as other communities are trying to offer that. So I'm excited to be a part of something with that type of a vision.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] Love it. I'll just add really quickly and then Carah, I'm throw it to you. I One of the things that I love about Thrive is there's pretty much no talk about Joseph Smith, about Fanny Alger, about peep stones, about the golden plates, about the brethren, about latest current events in the church or we don't complain about Mormonism, we don't criticize the church. It's not about church history. All that stuff is stuff that's left to other spaces. Thrive is about healing and growth after the church isn't working for you anymore. So it's very positive, it's very practical, it's very tools oriented. It's about how to healthy have a healthy marriage, how to raise healthy kids, how to get healthy yourself, how to build a new sense of morality or spirituality or identity or purpose or meaning, how to find friends, how to find community, how to, you know, just get healthy and how to have fun. Like I love that. Clint, you just organized a New Year's Eve gala where it sold out over what, 300 people came and danced and partied and, and have fun, how to have fun and joy. You know, when it, when it just a year or five ago you felt like the world was going to end. So all of those things are what Thrives about. You're not going to get a bunch of people complaining and bickering and deconstructing. You know, there are other spaces for that. Did you want to, did you want to add.

Clint Martin [00:20:49] No, but I think we should let Carah talk about the gala. Yeah, she was there dancing.

Carah Burrell [00:20:53] The gala's biggest fan. You're right.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:20:56] So grateful. But yeah, for all the people, Clint, Jenny, your wife, like everyone that worked so hard to pull that off. It was amazing. Yeah. And I got to dress up.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] Yeah. And did you want to say anything else about driver or questions from the audience?

Carah Burrell [00:21:10] Yeah, I just wanted to add a couple questions or a couple things in here and just wanted to shout out that Mark Fuentes, who's always in the live stream, super fan, Mark Fuentes. Thank you so much. Just wanted to say that people who are coming down from Cash Valley going to the Ogden Thrive, that there'll be a carpool and to reach out to him if costs or the driving thing is a detriment. And you can reach out to Mark. So if you're listening to this on audio, Mark's a cool dude. And then I thought this was interesting that David said as a religion writer for a dominant paper in Salt Lake City, there is not a greater topic Peggy could write about in Utah. This is one of the biggest topics. Biggest topics Peggy could be writing about. So I definitely agree with that. Religion is the subject of Utah culture and people leaving the church and needing resources and wanting to understand more about how to grow and thrive after a religion. I think that us having this discussion, whether with the Tribune or without them, is what Utahns are really thirsting after, you could say. And then also just wanted to make sure that Josh's comment gets answered. So on the Thrive Unite page, if people go to it, some, sometimes it's listed with who's coming and who's speaking, and then other ones aren't. Are those going to be updated with who's speaking? Because there's quite a few events that he was mentioning that he went to the Charlotte, North Carolina website, but there's nothing on the time location. Are those going to be updated with more information as well?

Clint Martin [00:22:34] Those will be updated, Carah. I'll make a commitment to stay up late and get those updated.

Carah Burrell [00:22:38] You heard it here, folks. All right, that's all for me.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Okay. All right, so that's great. Hopefully that can be how if this article ever gets written, hopefully it can start with. With what we just talked about. But I'm not trying to tell Tony and Peggy how to do their job. They are professionals and they're smart, capable, qualified journalists. Okay, let's go through each question. Question number one. This from Tony. Would you. Would you, John, be willing to share a copy of the speech on community building that I gave at the most recent Thrive gathering? Tony, we've talked about this. Reach out to me. I'm happy to share with you whatever makes Sense, but obviously I can't do that here. Okay, next question. Obviously this movement is growing, but what to you are other marked differences between what those questioning or leaving the church face today as opposed to, say, 10 years ago? So maybe that's a question for Natasha to start with, because Natasha and I have been kind of doing this almost since the beginning. So, Natasha, do you have some thoughts on what's different about the Mormon faith Crisis arena now versus 10 years ago?

Changes in Mormon Culture Over the Past Decade

Natasha Helfer [00:23:45] Yeah, I've, I've noticed quite a few differences actually. And fairly recently, like I would say in the last year or two, I feel like there's been quite a few differences in what's coming through clinically in my office versus maybe 10 years ago. I feel like 10 years ago the, the faith transition process felt slower, meaning that people would go through a faith transition and what I would consider maybe a 6 month to 18 month process. And now it's feeling like it can happen more over a weekend or over a couple of months. That seems to be what people tend to report that things deconstructed for them as they, you know, just kind of were on the Internet over a weekend and read through maybe the C S letter or listen to like five different podcasts and all of a sudden things just kind of fell apart for them. So I think one of the marked differences is the amount of resources that are out there now compared to 10 years ago. You know, 10 years ago there were maybe a handful of podcasts. I don't think the CES letter was published as of 10 years ago, is that correct?

John Dehlin [00:25:02] It wasn't.

Natasha Helfer [00:25:04] And yeah, it was. It was more difficult to find the information. Information was on the Internet. Historical information was on the Internet. And I also think that the social justice issues were definitely there. You know, the LGBTQ plus issues were there, the feminist issues were there, the racial issues were there. But even from a more national standpoint, we were not as behind as we are now. Meaning that now to be behind the times from an LGBTQ plus standpoint or a feminist standpoint is so much more not relevant than 10 years ago. You cannot have a 17 year old girl and explain to her why she's going to have a different experience than a boy in a church organization makes sense at. And like you can't explain that as well as you could 10 years ago. And that's significant, like for that to make, you know, that used to maybe take like 50 to 100 years for that to be that different. In just 10 years, like the church is going to lose so much Relevance in just the next five years. I think when it comes to social justice issues, that it's just, it's just not going to be relevant even from a standpoint of being able to keep up with basic discrimination legal issues of the country at large. Right. Like most companies these days have certain discrimination standards that way surpass, way surpass where the church is at, just from LGBTQ+ and feminist issues alone. So those things are, are, are moving forward at such a high pace, like technology and social justice issues are moving forward at such a high pace that we're not used to, we're not used to that type of fast forward movement. And when you look at kind of the generational values of, for example, the traditionalist generation, which maybe are like most of the apostles would probably fall into the traditionalist generation, you know, born like in the 19, when were they born, like 30s, things of that nature, versus the baby boomer generation versus, like my generation, Generation X versus, like the millennial generation. Each one of those generations has significant different values. The traditionalist generation is going to look at their values from like, you, you respect elders, you respect governments, you respect organizations. Baby boomers not, not as much. Generational X, definitely not as much. And millennials, not at all like they're. And baby boomers even. And generation X, we're going to respect academia, Millennials not even that. They're going to respect like the clout.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:26] And so there's like information age has shifted significantly. So the information that is out there has really changed the game. So I saw that 25 years ago when I started my practice as a mental health professional, the Internet was just starting. I mean, email was like a big deal. Like, that was huge. So I've been in my entire career watching that technological age advance. And the church with its historical context, with it being a fairly new religion, with it being so historically focused in its testimony meeting, like you need so much historical focus to have a testimony. It's just really falling apart. And so I think it's really snowballing and we're seeing much higher numbers. It's much more common to have a mixed faith family member, mixed faith marriage, to know somebody who has left the church than ever before. And so these. Yeah, there's, there's a huge difference between now and 10 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] Yeah, beautiful. That was so smart. I'll, I'll, I'll jump on. Clint, you want to say something?

Clint Martin [00:29:36] Oh, just one other comment to kind of follow up on what Natasha is saying. I think the social proof aspect of it is also, so 10 years ago, like, who would you know that had left the church? Like, you would be a social committing social suicide. You'd be a pariah. And now everyone has someone in their family, someone in their neighborhood, you know, that has left the church. So the social proof, you know, the best and the brightest are leaving. They see these smart, intelligent, kind, respectful people that are leaving the church and it just makes it easier for them to make that same transition.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] Totally.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:07] Yeah. The social cost isn't as high, right? You're going to, you're not going to be. You're still going to have social costs because there is social costs. I don't want to minimize that ever. There are high costs of leaving the church. At the same time, you're usually going to have a friend, a family member that you can count on. You're not going to be completely alone.

Gospel Topics Essays and Membership Trends

John Dehlin [00:30:25] And if I had to just, if I had to kind of just like think about the difference between 2022 and 2012. I mean, wow, it's mind blowing. The gospel topics essays come out, you know, in 2013. You know, Denver snuffers excommunicated in 2013. Kate Kelly and I are excommunicated between 2014 and 2015, same sex marriage is legalized across the United States. In 2015, the church pokes itself in the eye massively with the exclusion policy for lgbt, you know, same sex married couples and for their children, which has been a disaster for the church. The gospel topics essays have led to a massive acceleration of people learning about the problems with the church of truth claims and leaving over it. And then when you add Bill Reals excommunication, you know, Lee and Cody Young's excommunication, and just the dozens and dozens and dozens of people on social media who have been excommunicated honestly for just speaking the truth. You know, that's a big deal. That's really led to significant changes. And then you have the rise of Mormon stories, podcasts and all the communities, and all the Facebook communities, ex Mormon Reddit coming online and really making a huge impact. And then you have Covet happening, which has just taken tens of thousands of people out of the church physically and then a bunch more who mentally are now out, but they're just not telling anyone because they want to be careful how they navigate it. And then you see the rise of Instagram and of end of Tick Tock and the rising generation.

Carah Burrell [00:32:06] 6, 000 followers on tick tock right

John Dehlin [00:32:08] now, by the way, on the Mormon Stories podcast podcast.

Carah Burrell [00:32:11] So yeah, the reach of reach.

John Dehlin [00:32:13] Yeah, like, like everything in 2012 but like on turbo turbocharged. And the church is, is definitely the hemorrhaging and the exits are, have accelerated. You've got, you've got gen zers. They're not even. They don't, like you said, they don't even care about the truth claims. It's just boring and it's irrelevant and not interesting or it's not aligned with their values. Like they're like they care about like are we going to destroy the earth? You know, you know, is the earth can even be around in 10 or 20 years? Is capitalism a viable economic system? You know, how, how should we love each other better? That's what kind of Gen Z people think about. And like they don't care about Fanny Alger or the Kinderhook plates. It's not even on their radar. So yeah, the, the, the, the. And the church has in some ways tried to accommodate doubters and questioners. Whether it's Uchtdorf's talk about, you know, about trying to be more tolerant for people who question or doubt or the church trying to be more LGBT friendly. You have the church kind of or even the gospel topic says these trying to move in the direction of more transparency, more love, more tolerance, but then like continually poking itself in the eye, whether it's with Jeffrey Holland's musket talk or down a jokes saying that that conversion reparative therapy never happened for LGBTQ people or all the excommunications of same sex married couples within Mormonism and the church trying to hide the gospel topics essays and act like they never released them because now they're realizing that it. They've. The transparency has become very problematic. You've got the church really in some sense one step forward, in some, in some cases even two steps back, which has just been really confusing and disorienting. So I mean, I don't know that that's my take. Should we go on to the next question?

Clint Martin [00:34:13] Next question.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] All right. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:34:15] The only thing I wanted to add to that is Ozzy said that the exodus is happening among Spanish speaking members too. And I'm sure you know there's other versions of Mormon stories and Portuguese.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Well, the uk how about the British invasion of all the, all the YouTube channels and podcasts coming out of the UK there's a Spanish speaking podcast, there's Portuguese YouTube channels. Yeah, it's, it's a serious deal. Yeah. Okay, next question. How do you interpret the dramatic growth and demand and audiences for your podcasts and other Content relating to those questioning their faith and membership in the LDS Church. So this is about podcasts and content. I'll start. Well, Carah, do you, do you want to start with that or do you want me to start? I'll start. So, yeah, I think one of the things I'm really proud of is that progressive and post Mormons dominate the, the progressive and ex religious movements across the board. There's no ex religious subreddit on Reddit that comes even close to the ex Mormon subreddit. Ex Mormon subreddit has what, 220,000 members. The ex Catholic, ex evangelical. Nothing comes close in the podcasting world, whether it's Mormonism Live, you're on polygamy, Mormon stories, Mormon mental health, the, the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. Take your pick. Mormons on mushrooms. Ex Mormons dominate the ex religious podcasting. Mormon Stories is a top 20, top 25 religion theme podcast in the United States. So we're up there with Joel Osteen and, and, and Rick Warren and all those people. Like we dominate Reddit, we dominate podcasting, we dominate tick tock. Like Carah, I'm sure you could, you could attest to how ex Mormons are dominating tick tock, right?

Carah Burrell [00:36:08] Yeah, I mean I think Mormons generally, like when I was Mormon, I thought I was standing for truth and righteousness. And then if you feel like this is hurting people I love or it's not true anymore. And you, some people can be a little bit too on the ex Mormon and missionary train, but there's so much that people have to say and they have like Clint was explaining their entire lives revolving around a set of principles, around a set of men that told them what to do, that they outsource a lot of their values and things to. And then now all of a sudden they need a desperate community. TikTok is so good for that. You can put your face in front of a camera and everyone has a front facing camera. That's kind of how this new generation talks to one another that you don't have like a pen and paper that you're sending in the mail to each other. Everyone has a front facing camera now. And that's the way that like this newer generation is communicating with each other. Not just Instagram, not just Facebook, but TikTok has created a really amazing platform. So that's one of the biggest reasons is that and, and, and not to be too harsh on. There's, there's a couple, you know, like pro LDs TikTok accounts that are still holding on. It's kind of a joke on TikTok. When somebody starts a new account, they're like, hey, I'm gonna get on here and I'm going to stand up to the bullies and I'm gonna tell you guys the truth about the Mormon church. And people, ex Mormons will go on and they'll try to be respectful, but a lot of their respectful questions that they ask cannot hold up to any kind of scrutiny. And then they're usually like in the door and out the door. It's kind of the joke of ex Mormon tick tock that like anyone who wants to be pro LDs, it's really difficult because ex women have a lot of questions that other people that might be going through like a, might be a gen, like what's the word? Teenager, whatever. Gen Z, Gen Z. That people will, you know, be kind of deciding, you know, what do I believe? And they can see both sides of the argument. And it's just this overwhelming, like there's nothing like it. There's just so many ex Mormons sharing their stories who have better answers for why all of the stuff within Mormonism doesn't make sense. And it's kind of like an Ockham's razor thing of like a lot of people are coming to the conclusion like the pro LDS side and the ex Mormon side just realizing, okay, I knew that these puzzle pieces, puzzle pieces weren't fitting together and there's a reason now. It's because it doesn't feel right here and it doesn't feel right here. Audio listeners, I was pointing to my heart and my head, so. So yeah, TikTok is amazing for that. There's nothing like it online right now.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] And then a couple other things I'm just going to add because there's so much. I'm so glad you asked this question, Peggy and Tony, like this is a really important question. YouTube has been huge. So whether it's Zelf on the Shelf, Nemo Jordan and McKay, EXO Lex, even Mormon Stories podcast now is 45,000 subscribers on YouTube. And we started out as an audio only podcast. And so we're dominating YouTube. In fact, you know, ex Mormon social media content providers have become so dominant that one of Russell M. Nelson's first agenda items when he became prophet was to completely retreat from any usage of the term Mormon. For the primary, for the primary reason that we took over the usage of the word Mormon across all social media platforms and across Google and, and because of that, because so many Mormons were learning about all the problems with the church. The church basically flew the white flag and said all Mormons no longer use the term Mormon. Even though we invested a gazillion dollars in the I'm a Mormon campaign and Meet the Mormons and all that stuff, we're going to throw a billion dollars in marketing away, fly the white flag, retreat from any usage of the word Mormon, and we're going to hand that over to the ex Mormon community. That's a reality. That's what happened in the past 10 years. And then if you add the amazing group of healers, all the mental health providers like Natasha, like symmetry solutions like Janice Spangler, Tiffany Rowe, you know, we could, we could list 100 Mark Mark Osland, like so many amazing content healers and therapists that have risen up to support people trying to work through their faith crisis. And then the final thing is all the amazing communities, whether it's Utah Valley post Mormon community Thrive, whether it's the faith journey meetups that Chelsea Homer and her associates run, the Waka women of a certain age group, all of these communities, along with therapists and coaches, along with all the social media, it's just become overwhelming and in a positive way because people are healing, they're growing, they're finding friends, they're finding community, and they're realizing that they're not crazy, they're not alone, they can find friends and they can heal and grow after Mormonism. So, yeah, do you want to add anything to that, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [00:40:52] Well, I think Clint started this podcast with a really good statement that we, the church did teach us good principles. They taught us to serve, they taught us to learn, they taught us to do. And that stuff doesn't go away when our beliefs change. And so we're doers, we're servers, and we're learners. And so we go out there and we create things and we want to educate ourselves and we want to, so we want to consume, you know, resources and we want to create resources. And so, yeah, I do think that that explains a lot of why we're different from maybe other religious resources. And I think we have all, all of us who can create these resources, have other people from other entities come and say, we love your stuff and we're not even Mormon.

Carah Burrell [00:41:40] Yeah.

Clint Martin [00:41:41] Oh, yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:41] We all have people who have said that.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] The Mormon stories, audience of Ex J's Witness, ex Scientologist, ex evangelical, ex Catholic, ex Lutheran, ex Muslim. It's massive.

Carah Burrell [00:41:52] Leave your former religion in the comments.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:41:55] And in the past.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] Yeah, yeah. So all those things are different. And I, if I had to just summarize One last thing. It really is on the first presidency of the church down H. Oak saying, we don't. We don't seek or give apologies, just the unwillingness to follow the basic steps of repentance. The Mormon Church will not provide full transparency financially. It won't provide full informed consent. It. It won't change its. Its harmful sexual policies and practices. It won't change its LGBT policies and practices that are harmful. It's the. The Mormon Church is just not listening and not changing in the ways that it basically taught us to learn and grow and change. And so I think really, if we want to put responsibility on one organization, it really is the Mormon Church not living up to Jesus's teachings and frankly, its own teachings. I think that's probably the number one thing that we neglected to mention. You're nodding your head, Clint. You like that?

Carah Burrell [00:42:55] Amen.

Clint Martin [00:42:56] Amen.

Carah Burrell [00:42:57] They sharpened the sword, and sometimes we use it against them because we, we love Mormons. I say that every podcast that, like, I want Mormonism to be a healthier place to belong to.

Clint Martin [00:43:06] It's really fascinating that, you know, a small group of people and, you know, in like a, in a little office can, with a budget of a few

John Dehlin [00:43:14] hundred thousand dollars a year.

Clint Martin [00:43:15] Yeah. With hardly any money, can go toe to toe with a trillion dollar organization. I mean, it's crazy. You know, it's just the difference when you have the truth on your side, that's the difference. You know, and they could repent, they could change their ways. They could come clean and say, hey, you know what, we were wrong and we misled you and we're sorry, you know, and here's the path forward and let's focus on love and, you know, and unconditional love and service. But instead they double down on the harsh rhetoric. They still hate gay people. You know, I mean, they need to change their ways if they want to have the outcome change.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] And instead of being more supportive to women, they excommunicate Kate Kelly. Instead of being more transparent in their history, they excommunicate me and Bill Real. Bill Real. Instead of changing their harmful sexual policies, they excommunicate Sam Young and Natasha Helfer. You know, and instead of loving LGBT people, they excommunicate same sex married couples that just want to love each other. Like, yeah, the Mormon Church is just stabbing itself in the eye multiple times. So I hope that's helpful. Peggy and Tony.

Carah Burrell [00:44:18] Okay, all I want to say is that all of that needs to be under the banner of. I know what Mormons are saying. We're like, but those things can't change. That's core to our doctrine. Let's all just remember that every single doctrine in Mormonism has changed since the beginning of history, basically. Greg Prince has a famous quote where he says, there isn't a single Mormon doctrine that core Mormon doctrine that we have today that was there with the church. Something like, you know, you probably quote

John Dehlin [00:44:42] it better than I can get down to the deity. Like, when Joseph Smith started the church, God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost were one. Like, even the Godhead has changed dramatically.

Carah Burrell [00:44:51] Yeah. So I know it's hard for Mormons to hear what you just said of, like, we could make this healthier. But it's like, no, this is the way that God wants it to be. God's changed his mind quite a few times. I just want to make sure that that's clear.

Clint Martin [00:45:01] The leaders just need to pray about it, get a revelation, and the members will do it. Like, the members will love their lgbt, you know, friends and family. They don't want to hate people. Like, if a revelation comes from the top, they'll accept it.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] Women would begrudgingly become bishops if the church was willing.

Clint Martin [00:45:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] I shouldn't speak for the women, but I'm assuming you guys would have, right, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [00:45:23] Well, I've said for a long time we don't use our best. Our best doctrine. And I, Yeah, I, I feel like I was excommunicated for speaking what I feel was doctrinal truths in my mind. So that's. That's correct.

Carah Burrell [00:45:38] Yeah. I love that. The best part of Mormon doctrine, you can definitely emphasize.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] Yeah. All right, next question. Are we at a unique moment, as it were, in this cultural phenomenon? And if so, how do you characterize this moment? I'm on record as calling this Mormon Spring. We're in Mormon Spring. When you think about the Arab Spring, where the Arab countries were rising up, overthrowing dictatorships, demanding democracy, transparency, freedom of the press, speaking up to abuse dictators, you know, all that stuff. That was the Arab Spring. I'm Calling Mormon Spring 20, 21, 22. After post Covid, it's Mormon Spring. And, and it's only going to accelerate. It's only going to get worse for the church unless it changes its ways. And it's only going to get better. For truth. What's winning is. Is transparency, honesty, truth, compassion, you know, equality for women, equality for gender, equality for sexual identity, equal, you know, honesty and openness for factual history and informed consent. The. The value of all those stocks are on the rise. I'm bullish for all those things. And I'm extra bearish for orthodox Mormonism and patriarchy. Mormon patriarchy. That's my take.

Clint Martin [00:46:57] Clint, I've got another way of talking about it. I'm sure that you're familiar with the Rogers adoption curve. You know, they typically apply to technology. And, you know, you've got these people that are, you know, innovators, you know, 2.5% of the people that are kind of like realizing what the new technology looks like. And it takes a few years for people to start paying attention. Then you've got the early adopters. It's about 16% of the population. And then comes this early majority, and the people just start adopting, you know. Yeah, it's like a tipping point, like cell phones. You know, at first there are these bricks that you have in your car, and now every single kid has one in their back pocket. I feel like this is the same kind of thing. And we're getting to the point where it's just going to tip over and, I mean, there's going to be an avalanche of people leaving the church in the next decade. In my opinion, they'll probably lose 30% of their active membership in the next decade would be my prediction.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] And what's rough about that is already they've lost 70% of all the people baptized in the world. Like, already the church is at 30%. So if they're losing 30% of 30%, they're active. Yeah.

Clint Martin [00:47:59] Of the small percentage that's left.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Yeah, yeah. That's going to get them down to 20% of total world membership. 4 out of 5 of the people ever baptized in the church will have left the church. And that's, you know, that's not good. Natasha, how do you want to answer this question?

Natasha Helfer [00:48:13] Yeah, I would agree with that. I think. I mean, just having attended the Women's Thrive event, for example, some of the questions that were asked at the very beginning of the event was, how many of you are attending your very first post Mormon event? And I was shocked at how many hands went up. I would say more than half of the women raised their hands. And I was like, oh, my goodness.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] Some said three quarter.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:37] Yeah. And so I was like, oh, my goodness. If, if this is the first. First event that, that so many of these women are attending, we need to be careful, we need to be tender, we need to be gentle. You know, this. That needs to be the tone. And that was not the case. First of all, I'm used to also the majority of women at these events being about 40 esque. 40 esque. And the majority of the women at this event were, I would say, 25 to 35. And they were funny and they were, like, resilient, and they could laugh about things that usually people can't laugh at, you know, at their first post Mormon. And it was just. It. It was shocking to me. It was shocking to me. So I agree with the snowball that you're both talking about that it's going quicker, it's younger, it's. It's in more people's back pockets.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Love it. Okay, we're getting. We got. We got a question in from the audience that cares. Pulling out. I think it's gonna be a super quickie. Carah, what's the quick one? And I think Clint's gonna answer this one.

Does Thrive Promote a Specific Belief System

Carah Burrell [00:49:47] Nathan asked recent criticism of postmormonism frame as pushing a woke neoliberal ideology. Does Thrive have a belief system that people should follow? Does Thrive push a specific ideology?

John Dehlin [00:49:58] Great question, Clint.

Clint Martin [00:49:59] Wow, that's a great question. So the short answer is no. You know, my wife Jenny, who's the executive director, she has a cold. Otherwise she'd be here. Talks a lot about internal authority. The answers need to come inside, from inside of each of us. They don't need to come from some guy in a suit at a pulpit. So, no, we don't have, like, a particular agenda and belief system that we preach. You know, hopefully, unconditional love, you know, would be a guiding principle and caring for people. But, no, we don't have a. A dogma that we preach.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] And I think we've got Republicans and Democrats, liberals and conservatives. You know, we definitely are pro women's rights. We're pro LGBT equality, We're pro people of color, you know, gender affirming. Gender affirming.

Carah Burrell [00:50:52] Like we would. If you go to a Thrive event, for instance, and somebody is genderqueer, we would appreciate if you use their pronouns, is probably the most straightforward answer that we would hope that it's a safe environment for everyone, feels welcomed and loved and included.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Yeah.

Clint Martin [00:51:07] And if there's a gay couple dancing, then we hope that you'll applaud them and just admire the love that they have.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Yeah. One of the most beautiful moments at every Thrive event we do is we ask LGBT people to stand up if they're comfortable doing so, and the entire audience erupts in applause. And then we ask all the LGBTQ allies to stand up. And just. The idea is for the LGBT people who have felt so marginalized and insulted and demeaned, we want them to feel loved and embraced. And, and as far as women, you know, we, we wanted the Thrive board, the original Thrive board, to be predominantly female. So we've got three women and, and, and two men, and that might even change more in the future. And like, we wanted women to preside at the meeting. So we've had Natasha or even, even Carah, you know, lead these events. So a woman's presiding, not a man. So these are just. But no, no political. You know, we want everyone to feel welcome, regardless of political philosophy or identity or any of that stuff.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:10] We have also asked believing members who are there supporting faith transitioners to stand, and we applaud them.

Clint Martin [00:52:17] Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Natasha. I mean, I think that that's powerful for them to realize that we love them too. You know, we have family members that are still active, and we want to also show them the same amount of love and courtesy that we would hope that, you know, anyone would show to us. So I'm glad that you brought that up.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Yeah, yeah. That's also some of the most vociferous applause is to the believers that attend a Thrive event in support of their non believing spouse. And we do our best to moderate the content of Thrive so that it's. It's minimally offensive, jarring, demeaning to believers. Like, if you can believe in God and come to thrive, you can believe in Jesus and come to thrive, you can still be active, faithful Mormon and come to thrive, and we'll do our best to make you feel welcome. The only asterisk is it's painful and difficult to leave a religion. And sometimes people are going to express pain or sadness or frustration. And so believers need to realize that some of that pain and discomfort is going to be expressed because that's part of the journey. It's part of the grieving process.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:21] That's right, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:53:22] Perfectly sad, I think.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] Okay, let's see. Do you, as some do, see this in the broader context of the millennial millennial generation and the penchant of that age group to more readily question institutions? Now, Carah, are you a millennial? Officially?

Carah Burrell [00:53:42] I am. I was born in 1989.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] So is how much of this is, you know, millennial?

Carah Burrell [00:53:48] Doesn't every generation, like, have a phase where they push back against the man and then they grow up and they get a little bit more conservative? I think. Is that kind of generally how it goes? Yeah, we kind of want to just like, test out things for yourself, push back. So I think, just in general, I think millennials are a different generation that are less prone to working for the man, less prone to, like, put up with crap. And if the question that they were asking, is this a millennial pushback? I would say no. I think people of all ages are. Are leaving and questioning the authority of an authoritarian religion.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] And yes, and we do have the evidence that Gen Zers and millennials are like 80% of those that have been raised Mormon. Up to like 3/4 of the return missionaries currently of current cohorts and generations are leaving the Mormon or leaving the Mormon Church, becoming inactive. So the church is hemorrhaging its Gen Z and.

Carah Burrell [00:54:44] Yeah. So you combined, like, stick it to the man attitude with information. Deadly combination.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:50] And shifting values.

John Dehlin [00:54:52] Shifting values.

Carah Burrell [00:54:52] Shifting values.

Natasha Helfer [00:54:54] The research from Jana Reese is. Is very interesting in that regard.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Because Gen Zers and millennials just don't do bigotry like, like us older folk. Is that okay? Is that okay to say?

Carah Burrell [00:55:07] Maggie said. Let me read Maggie's comment. She said, no, Millennials did not invent questioning.

Clint Martin [00:55:13] I don't think.

Carah Burrell [00:55:14] I don't think anyone in millennials here are saying that millennials invented questioning, but we have. You know, there's a certain generation back in the old days where there are certain words that you could call people in marginalized groups that were accepted, and then those people are still around and they're still alive. And there are certain things that younger people that are pushing and pushing that will not put up with. And every generation, every 10 years, there are certain things that we would not put up with. Go watch an episode of Friends sometimes. There's things that we put up with 10 years ago, 15 years ago that that generation found acceptable. The younger people are like, we're going to be more inclusive. We're not going to do that. So it's not so much that we, I think, invented questioning, it's that we're more, like, willing to call out things and not wanting to put up with stuff. That's fair enough to say, right?

John Dehlin [00:55:57] Yeah.

Clint Martin [00:55:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] I do think TikTok, our, our involvement in Tick Tock and Instagram is probably influential in, in helping to provide informed consent to not just millennials and Gen Zers, but also teenagers. And so, yeah, the Tick Tock is hurting the church in a massive way. And that's just reality. And we're not. We care. And I didn't open Stories foundation. We didn't enter TikTok to, like, take teens out of the church. But we do believe that teens deserve informed consent, especially young girls that are going to be making really important decisions about education and career. LGBT youth that are trying to figure out, do I enter into a mixed orientation marriage? Teens deserve to know the truth so that they cannot get sucked into paths that are going to be toxic or even deadly to them. So I don't think we apologize for that, but that's, you know, that's kind of the reality. So.

Carah Burrell [00:56:53] And then they call us Cora Whore at the BYU Idaho commencement.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] Yep. Okay. All right. So earlier this year, Tony, I, Tony, obtained a copy of a fascinating June 2013 document called LDS Personal Faith Crisis. Carah, we want to add this to the show notes. It's on GitHub and it's probably one of the most important documents created in the past 20 years related to post Mormons. Anyway, I'll keep reading the question. It's, it's 2013 faith crisis report. If you put my name, Travis Stratford or Greg Prince. Carah, it'll come up and we'll want to. Let's add that right now to the comments, but also the show notes. Tony goes on to ask. It appears to have been prepared for then President Dieter Uchtdorf and some of the reports Background says it included results from an ethnographic survey that me, John De Lin, helped design. Yes, that's all true. Let me just really quickly say that let's say 2011, 2012 of my friend Travis Stratford came to me and Greg Prince and we together formed a little committee to help the church understand better people losing their faith. We teamed with Hans Mattson, a former Swedish area authority. We brought Han, we brought Marlon Jensen to New York City. And we conducted a survey of over 3000 progressive and post Mormons that had lost their faith. And we surveyed them about why they had lost their faith. We put together this formal presentation. It was presented to Marlon Jensen in New York City with Greg Prince and Travis Stratford. And eventually Marlon Jensen invited us to come to church headquarters. And when I say us, it was Travis Stratford who actually went and he presented to the managing directors of like the missionary department, you know, church education system, curriculum, you know, correlation pr, all the head managing directors. We presented this report basically saying the church was losing its best and brightest and it's because of the church being dishonest with its history and people feeling betrayed, but also its issues on women, on people of color, it's racist issues and its LGBT problems. So we gave the church sort of advance notice that these problems were happening. They excommunicated me after I, you know, supported this. But we also, we also presented Travis Stratford put together A book that he hand delivered to President Uchtdorf, which led to Uchtdorf giving that famous talk in General Conference saying we need to be more loving and tolerant of are members in Faith Crisis. And it was really the first time ever in a Mormon General Conference people of Faith Crisis were even acknowledged as existing. And that was a real groundbreaking time. Of course, they ended up making Marlon Jensen an emeritus general authority, but they did this. This was used by Marlon Jensen in 2011, 2012 to to push for the the Essays project. So the Gospel Topics essays literally came out as a result of this study that we conducted and that we presented the church with. So you can there's a, there's an episode on Mormon stories that I'm going to ask here to put in the show Notes by Matthew Harris that talks about the Gospel Topics essays. And there's an entire chapter that's dedicated to retelling this story in the in the forward or the prologue or the first chapter of Matt Harris's book. So Care is going to include that in the show notes. And there's also an episode that I did on along with Hans Mattson on a podcast that's super popular that's called the Line. Carah, if you'll Google the podcast, the Line John Delan, Hans Mattson. We actually do like a full hour episode telling this story on that podcast, the Line. So these are all ways that Tony, you and Peggy can research and investigate this question. But yes, the report was delivered. Yes, it's changed the church in, in transformative ways. Yes, you should read and promote this and shout out to Travis Stratford, Hans and Brigitte Matson, Marlon Jensen, Greg Prince and all the researchers. We had like 20 PhDs analyze the data, shout out to all of them for helping make this possible. You can also go to. The I actually released a preliminary version of this report to I think it's why mormonsquestion.org you could actually read a preliminary version of this report@why mormonsquestion.org and Carol will include that in the show notes as well. Clint, anything you want to add to that?

The 2013 LDS Faith Crisis Report and Its Implications

Clint Martin [01:01:55] I think that report is fascinating. For those who haven't seen it, I have it saved on my desktop as an icon. It's like 150 pages. But it, you know, talks about like the faith transition journey, what a typical transition looks like, the Personas of people that go through it. You know, a bunch of stories, you know, surveys, the results are, you know, why people are leaving the church. I think it's fascinating.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Yeah. Yeah. Natasha, anything you want to add to

Natasha Helfer [01:02:21] that, I just remember being around when you were doing this work, and it's just amazing sometimes for me to think how long we've been. How long we've been at this, how long this has all been, you know, in the ethos and, and just, you know, shout out to you and. And how long we've all been, you know, really working at this topic that has been so difficult. And, you know, and that was prior to your excommunication. And then I think of all that work that you did, and then I think of that, it just. It makes me just kind of emotional and angry. But just to see that,

Carah Burrell [01:03:01] you know,

Natasha Helfer [01:03:01] that visual of you as an enemy to the church is just really. It's just really upsetting to see how they treat so many of us that no fault of our own are in this space of trying to find solutions to the problems that we're just in the midst of trying to find some type of answers for. So thank you, John, and thank you, Travis, and thank you to all those people that you mentioned.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] Thank you, Natasha.

Clint Martin [01:03:35] It's crazy, Natasha, like, you're. I mean, the work that you guys are doing that we're involved in, you know, you're just trying to clean up these messes, and you didn't cause these messes. You didn't cause all these broken families, all this heartache. And it's hard. And then, you know, and then the way that they pay you back is they kick you out, you know, and we were there and we watched that happen. And that was painful and that was hard, you know.

John Dehlin [01:04:02] Yeah, yeah. And shout out to, you know, Jeremy Runnels, Bill Real, Radio Free Mormon, Lee and Cody Young. I know I'm going to forget other, you know, excuse Sam Young. Just all the excommunications. We have so many people. Kyle. Kyle Ashworth. There's just so many people. Tyler Glenn. It's just I, I couldn't even name all the people on Marmor stories, all the activists, even, you know, Kate Kelly and all the ordained women, you know, just so many people have fought so hard, and it's just weird to think about the strategy chambers at church headquarters that are like, yep, let's make all these changes and let's make sure and excommunicate everybody that helped make these changes possible. It's, it's. It's kind of. It's kind of weird. But thank you, Natasha, for that heartfelt and. And Clint as well. Carah, is there anything, do you want to add to this question? Okay. All right. A lot of this happened before your time. You're. You're kind of new. You're just a couple years into this. You're just a. But a babe.

Carah Burrell [01:05:03] I am. But a baby. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] Okay. All right. So hopefully that was useful in terms of the. He asked, can you share any insights into the development of that report and its impact? I know that it got. I'm pretty sure it got Uchtdorf demoted from the First Presidency by. By almost all reports, Boyd K. Packer and Dallin H. Oaks and Russell M. Nelson were angry that the Gospel topics essays were released. So, first of all, the Gospel topics essays are a direct resort result of this report that's been documented in Matt Smith's book and by lots of people. So that we have the Gospel topics essays, we have Uchtdorf release from the First Presidency as a result. Yeah, Lot. Lots of excommunications. And basically, you know, you asked at the beginning, what's changed in the past 10 years? We said acceleration. Like, it all began about 10 years ago when this report first came out. And then the Gospel topics essays, and then the wave of excommunications. Like, that's, that's. That was kind of a. That, that. That report was the beginning of kind of the end of the modern Mormon Church, I would say. Any other. Any of you guys want to say anything else about that report and its impact? Okay. Do you have any observations on the role the report may have played at that time in bringing many of these commonalities among questioning Latter Day Saints to light, both for lay members and for church leaders? I think we've kind of answered that. It's basically that report led to the Gospel topics essays, but it also led to the CES letter. It also led to Mormon stories. It led to all these excommunications. And, and, you know, one of the things I'm really proud of over the past 10 years is we made. We made. We turned excommunication as barbaric and medieval as it is. We turned it into a badge of honor. Because if you were excommunicated in the past 10 years, it, you know, it doesn't mean you were a pedophile. Those people were protected. It doesn't mean you were a rapist. Those people were protected. It doesn't mean you embezzled money. You know, if you were excommunicated in the past 10 years, you were likely an activist fighting for social justice. You were fighting for informed consent. You were fighting for transparency. You're fighting for sexual health, you're fighting for women's rights. You're fighting for minorities, for people of color, you're fighting for LGBT people or trans people or you know, gender inclusion or the treatment of children to be humane and not deviantly sexual in terms of how bishops treat people. Like so, like so, you know, I'm proud of that and you know, anything you guys want to add? Clint?

Clint Martin [01:07:48] One thing that I think would be fascinating, John, and we'll probably never be able to do this, but if we could do a survey of active LDS members and see if they know about this report, I guarantee you they don't know about it. Ask them if they even know about the essays. They also don't know about that. It's hidden on the church's website. Like active members of the LDS Church don't know about these resources.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] That's so bizarre. That should be something that the constant trib articles are addressing is that you go to the average bishop or stake president, they still have never heard of any of these issues in spite of all this stuff. And that's just. We call that the bubble that shows how, you know, high demand religions control information, make members afraid to, to learn the information. They're warned against learning truthful information. And, and so in spite of all this stuff, the average member is oblivious to all of it and even the average bishop and stake president.

Carah Burrell [01:08:40] So that'd make a great reality show. Just asking people on the street, they've heard of the gospel topics essays or you could be like my parents who they've seen them and they think that the church has been co opted by progressives like Richard Bushman. The stone in the hat thing, they don't believe it. They think that's a progressive rewriting of history so they can read the stuff and they still go back to the old narrative.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] Yeah, the church has done a really good job of basically saying anything. Anything that makes an orthodox Mormon feel uncomfortable is anti Mormon literature. Stay away from it. And thus, you know, thus the church remains, church membership remains largely oblivious and the leadership. And it's to their own demise into their own peril because continually people are learning about this through the Internet discovering that they, that they've been betrayed, that they've been lied to, that the church knew better and they didn't come clean. And it's just, it's just more pain and, and again the fact that the church is now trying to hide the essays and backtrack is just, it's just a mess.

Natasha Helfer [01:09:41] Yeah, it's a fear based response and unfortunately it does work at some Levels. Right. Which is kind of where it does work is with these more orthodox members or with the small insular group, which is, I guess, why they continue to try these attempts. And unfortunately, it's a. The fear based response is a normal kind of fight, flight, freeze response. Right. Of the human. Of the human psyche. It goes against, you know, the basic, most repeated scripture in the New Testament, which is fear not. And. And I don't think it is the winning response. So I don't think it's what will win in the end.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] The major finding of the report is that people feel betrayed and that the church is blowing it on social justice issues with women, people of color, and LGBTQ people. And the church has not fixed any of that in a material way. At the best they've done is released a book that's like a poor history, released a bunch of gospel topics essays that are apologetic and gaslighting, and then they've done their best to make sure nobody ever reads or finds out about them. And. Yeah, so that's. Yeah, that's it.

Carah Burrell [01:10:52] Yeah, the inoculation is real. Like, I have friends who have read the Saints book that the church came out, and they're like, wow, the church is being so transparent. And then LDS discussions. No, not LD discussions. Is that what it is? What's the name of that guy who has. Anyway. Yeah, yeah, that has an annotated version of the Saints book of everything that they left out. So to a believing member, the church is more transparent than ever, but to somebody who has the whole landscape of all of the, you know, truth of the church before them, the church is just. It's a drop in the bucket. So a lot of people are still frustrated and wishing that would come forward. So I think that's a good reflection of that.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] And still no apology. Like, what we want is an apology. Sorry we misled you. Sorry we hurt all these vulnerable minority populations will try to do better and we'll fix it. And that's just basic repentance 101 Mormon church, we would love you to follow your own teachings. Christ's teachings shouldn't be super unreasonable of an expectation. Okay, next question. Do you feel that the report's findings in 2013 have held up in subsequent years? I would rephrase that. Is the church still hiding and deceiving people, gaslighting people, and our members still feeling betrayed in mass when they learn about it?

Carah Burrell [01:12:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:09] Clint?

Clint Martin [01:12:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [01:12:11] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:12:12] You keep going to me for Natasha shot.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] Okay. Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [01:12:15] Yes, Carah.

Carah Burrell [01:12:17] I am a sex expert, but not like Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [01:12:20] Different Type of expert, Karen?

Carah Burrell [01:12:23] No. I wish I had Natasha's brain. I am not Natasha, nor do I have the poise. The answer is, are they still hiding things? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:31] Army people and.

Carah Burrell [01:12:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] Okay. All right. Is there an opening need, as some suggest, for a more updated assessment of the magnitude of Mormon disaffection numbers and reasons for those questioning departing the church, etc, today? I've got an answer. Clint, do you want to start with that?

Church Disaffection Data and What It Reveals

Clint Martin [01:12:52] I'd love to see that kind of data, and I guarantee you there's no way in hell the Church is going to release it.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] Why not?

Clint Martin [01:12:59] Because I think it'll look horrible.

John Dehlin [01:13:01] Yeah.

Clint Martin [01:13:01] You know, I mean, I'd love to see accountability. Like an organization that takes in seven or $8 billion in revenue from its members in the form of tithing.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] That's another thing I need to mention. Yeah, yeah.

Clint Martin [01:13:13] To say nothing of the additional 10 or 20 billion. I mean, the way the stock market's gone, maybe 50 billion that they've made on their. Yeah. In Ensign Pink, their investment fund, they don't have any financial transparency. Zero. I mean, these little tiny organizations that we do that have a hundred thousand dollars, a few hundred thousand dollars a year in annual donations, we're completely transparent. This organization that has billions of dollars at their disposal. Nothing. All they say is in conference. Yeah, trust us, we've had accountants looked at it. Everything's great. Trust us.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Yeah.

Clint Martin [01:13:46] No transparency at all. We would see a decline in tithing revenue, in my opinion. We would. To see a decline in attendance. I mean, their numbers, in my opinion, are dismal.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] I mean. Yeah. A couple things so you mentioned. We even forgot to mention. Yeah. The whistleblowers, David Nielsen and Lars Nielsen, you know, uncovering the reality of Ensign Peak, $150 billion of investments. That's new. People like James Huntsman, son of. Of billionaire faithful Mormon John Huntsman, suing the church over fraud. That's all new. And then what's also new is both the Mormon Church stopped releasing its membership statistics information in general conference after, what, 150 years of releasing that information. Why would the Mormon Church stop releasing its membership information? Because the numbers were awful. And even here in Salt Lake City and in Utah, the church used to release membership information for counties in Salt Lakes, in Utah, across Utah. And just. Just this year, they've stopped. So they're going backwards in terms of transparency, not even forward. And that's mind blowing. Natasha, anything you want to say about that?

Natasha Helfer [01:15:02] Not really. I mean, what else is there to say?

John Dehlin [01:15:05] Yeah, like it's grief. In some ways, things are worse than they were 10 years ago. That's mind blowing. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:15:12] Carah, are you saying it's worse because we know more?

John Dehlin [01:15:16] No, it's worse because like the church is actually less transparent. Less transparent in some ways.

Carah Burrell [01:15:22] Okay, yeah, yeah.

Clint Martin [01:15:24] Well, when the numbers look crappy, then you stop releasing them.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] You hide the numbers.

Clint Martin [01:15:27] You hide it.

John Dehlin [01:15:28] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:15:28] And in terms of growth, right? Like the only new growth of the church is children being born in the church. Right. Like the growth is going to be stagnant as well. So they need to hold on to

John Dehlin [01:15:38] growth rate is less than 1% at this point. It's grinding to a screeching halt. It's only the active US Mormon birth rate of three kids per couple. That's even keeping the church slightly growing at this point, if you can even call it that. But within a few years, if not a decade or two, the church will literally be shrinking worldwide. And it's trying to make up for those statistics in Africa. But many people see Africa is just a Potemkin town attempt at basically massaging the statistics. We could have invested in Africa 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Why didn't we? We're investing in Africa now because it's our last frontier. It's Mormon church's last frontier because we've basically saturated the missionary market in Latin America, the Philippines, Europe doesn't want this. Asia doesn't want this. Africa's the church's last hope at growth.

Carah Burrell [01:16:33] Do you want to hear a fun fact that I am friends with somebody who is working on the new church hymn book. And I said, what are you changing about the church hymn book? And they said that it's going to be a lot more international. And I said, how so? And they said, well, they're adding a bunch of African spiritual hymns to it. And I said, isn't that interesting? So I think they're trying to get more international. There's a lot of good in that, obviously. But I think that they know, if that's the first thing that he said to me, is that they're trying to make it more friendly to Africans. That's probably where they know that that's the only space for real long term growth, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:17:08] And Carol, ask you to add my second interview with Roger Hendricks, a management consultant analyzes the church.

Carah Burrell [01:17:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:15] Because in that interview, Roger Hendricks talks all about the church's Africa strategy as a way to kind of stem the tide.

Carah Burrell [01:17:21] And while we're talking about Africa, we have a Mormon Stories episode, a three part Mormon stories Episode of A Convert from Zimbabwe. So Mackenzie and Gerald Benzi a three part series. The last one drops tomorrow. So we also discuss in the these episodes if missionaries target what's. I'm looking for Just.

John Dehlin [01:17:42] Just people in developing countries.

Carah Burrell [01:17:44] Yeah. And only people and vulnerable immigrants as well as well. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, just wanted to post that shout out too.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] Yeah. Okay, we're almost done. Tony and Peggy with the questions. I hope, I hope this is useful. We really sincerely. And by the way, we asked them to also send us any additional questions between these second set and now they haven't. But you know, if you guys have a third set of questions, we would love to answer them. Okay, let's see. Tony says I want to ask again. Okay, so he has a question here about OSF finances and we've given him all the information he asked for the name of. Of a specific individual that doesn't want their name to be released. So Tony, we've already answered this, this question. The second to last question, your penultimate question, we already answered it. Please feel free to reach out to us if you have anything more. We did talk about the fact that just sort of, I would say one of our haters filed a complaint with. With Utah, State of Utah questioning the open stories foundations, finances, its ethics around my compensation, around our financial dealings. We were thrilled. You know, it's never fun to be audited, especially by a theocracy. But we were audited by the theocracy. We willingly gave three years full financial information and literally the answer came back. We find no wrongdoing. This audit is concluded. So we've already told you guys that in the last episode they want the name of the investigator and. No, we're not going to. We asked the investigator whether they wanted their name released. They said no. So we're not going to provide it.

Clint Martin [01:19:30] Well, and respect for them. Yeah. And they also said, at least you know my memory of the email that they're not allowed. The state doesn't allow like the individual investigators names to be released.

John Dehlin [01:19:40] Yeah. So yeah, because they're private people. So. All right, so that, that's that last question. Finally, we wanted to reiterate our request for a live phone interview at some point. Would you still consider that? Clint, do you want to report how things played out? Because we were super excited. We wanted to have them a part of this live stream. Natasha, you and Carah and Clint, Jenny, Lisa, we were all willing to have Peggy and Tony in our studio live stream a live Q A where they could ask us any question we would answer any Question. So we were. We were willing to do that. They declined that. That's fine. But we also, of course, were super willing. Clint, do you want to talk about that?

The Tribune Interview Request and Follow-Up Questions

Clint Martin [01:20:25] Yeah. So the other thing that I mentioned at the first of the podcast, I reached out to both. Well, I spoke with Tony and Peggy both and mentioned the idea of having getting a lunch together, and the three of us would sit down along with them and, you know, we could talk about whatever they would like to bring up and ask any questions. Tony seemed amenable to it. And then Peggy declined. She said that she didn't want to spend that much time on this article, that this is just going to be a short article, and she didn't want to spend that kind of time on that. So that was the response. And, you know, if they would like to get together and do a lunch meeting, I think that, you know, we would be happy to do that. So I don't know if they're buying or we are, but either way, we'll be fine.

Natasha Helfer [01:21:06] I was never contacted, so that's all I have to say.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] Yeah. And I'm going to reiterate that I was just like, Tony, Peggy, if you want to learn about Thrive, ask Clinton, Jenny Martin, ask Natasha, ask Lisa. We can give you a thousand, fifteen hundred people that attend a recent event. They would love to tell you how amazing Thrive is. We could talk. We could put you in touch with the community leaders of the dozens and dozens of local Thrive communities in Sacramento and Orange county and Texas and Houston and Atlanta, you know, all over the United States and even in the UK in Canada. Like, yes, we would love to have you talk to the people at Thrive at all levels. And so far, they've made zero phone calls that we're aware of. Maybe they have made phone calls, but that's one thing I'm kind of a bit frustrated with is. And again, this. I'll start how I'll end, how I started. It just seemed like they came out of the gate kind of wanting to smear or defame Thrive without any real interest in all the good that it's doing. And if I was a little bit salty, if I was a little bit aggressive, it's because I. I was a. I. I felt like it was unprofessional journalism. And maybe that's not kind to say. Maybe you. Maybe Clint, you would phrase it in other ways, but I'm like, thrive deserves care. It deserves time. It deserves attention. It's important. And I. I don't want to be insulted by. By gotcha. Questions, you know, because there's no there, there. There's no, there's nothing to Gotcha. It's just a bunch of people trying to help a bunch of people in pain find healing and joy.

Clint Martin [01:22:43] Well, we don't want to burn any bridges with the reporters. I'm happy to talk to them anytime. And, you know, it's hard to understand what people's motives are and what religions they may or may not be a part of. So anyway, we'll leave it where it is. There may be other reporters. It sounds like Carah had someone that was reaching out. If they want to do an article about this, if they think it's interesting, if they want to hear about why 22 cities across the world would get together on the same day in the middle of winter to get together and talk about these issues and support each other and build community and find each other and love each other. Wow, that sounds like an interesting story. And it's all volunteer effort. Sounds amazing to me. So if they want to talk about that, reach out, we'll be happy to talk to you about that.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] And I tried to make the point before that, like, yes, the Salt Lake Tribune wants to stay friendly to believing Mormons because that's part of its subscriber base. But I can guarantee you that 2 to 1 or 3 or 4 to 1, the Salt Lake Tribune subscriber base is ex Mormons or non Mormons. And I do want to just reiterate my call to the Sally Tribune to do more stories on ex Mormonism, on progressive Mormon, on post Mormonism, because it's, it's a real deal. It's a real movement. It's the most. It's. I'll tell you this, it's the number one thing on the minds of the church leaders right now. So why shouldn't it be the number one leading kind of emphasis with the Salt Lake Tribune's religion reporting? So I would just love more reporting. And, and I, I appreciated that within a few weeks of our last livestream for Peggy and Tony, that the Salt Lake Tribune covered Jeff Green, the billionaire that's just come out, resigned from the church, did an open public resignation, donated to Equality Utah. Like, wow, thank you. More of that, I would say, because there's just so many cool stories that could be covered and I think it might help them sell a few papers maybe.

Clint Martin [01:24:37] Hey, John, can I ask you a question?

John Dehlin [01:24:38] Yeah.

Clint Martin [01:24:39] Are you proposing that you become a reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune and do some articles for him?

John Dehlin [01:24:43] I would, I would work for them a part Time I would volunteer. You wouldn't have to pay me. I would even help. I would, I would help take over the Sally Tribune's podcast and help them have a. Really. Or, or contribute to the Sally Tribune's podcast because I think I could help you guys. Maybe, maybe I could help you guys.

Clint Martin [01:25:03] Wow. So check that out. So Mr. Huntsman, owner of the. Well I guess they can turned it to a non profit but anyway Mr. Huntsman, John Dehlin just made you an offer. See if you want to take him up.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] There's one comment I want to highlight and carry. You may have others. Mark Fuentes writes you should offer to do an interview for a competing newspaper. I don't know if that's sarcasm or not, but the competing newspaper to selling Tribune is the Desiree News, which the church owns. And I'm sure Mark Fuentes knows this. But that's why we honestly, we don't hate the solid Tribune. I respect Peggy Fletcher Stack more than almost anyone. She's a legend. She's been doing this reporting in this space for 30 or 40 years. She started Sunstone. We all love and admire Peggy's work over the past several decades. So shout out to Peggy. Keep up that really great journalism and I'm sure. Tony, I, I reviewed your articles, Tony. You've done great work. And just most importantly, long live the Salt Tribune. If you can preserve the long standing tradition of truly independent reporting of all the news that, that Utahns care about. And it's a, it's an international newspaper for all the people that follow Mormonism. So long live Salt Lake Tribune if it's going to stay a professional independent newspaper. Fair.

Clint Martin [01:26:21] Fair.

John Dehlin [01:26:22] Natasha, any final words?

Natasha Helfer [01:26:24] I'm a subscriber to the Salt Lake Tribune.

Carah Burrell [01:26:26] You're the only person whose opinion matters.

Natasha Helfer [01:26:29] I don't think I've ever turned down a reporter request for an interview. Although I probably ignored several after my excommunication because I think I was asleep for two weeks.

John Dehlin [01:26:41] Did Peggy interview you during your excommunication?

Natasha Helfer [01:26:44] No.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] Did she ask to interview you?

Natasha Helfer [01:26:46] I don't think Peggy did. I don't know. I really, I don't. I don't know sometimes.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] But you're not aware, I think that

Natasha Helfer [01:26:54] there were emails and messages that I still have not gotten back to.

John Dehlin [01:26:58] So as far as you know, Peggy did not.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:00] As far as I know, I. I think that I missed some opportunities to be interviewed those, those first few weeks after my excommunication for sure. So she may have. I don't know. No.

John Dehlin [01:27:10] Okay.

Clint Martin [01:27:11] That was a hard Time.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:12] That was a hard time.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:13] But in general, I know. I don't mean to ever turn down an interview.

John Dehlin [01:27:20] All right.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:20] And I support the SOL attribute.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] Yeah. Carah, do you want to highlight any. Any questions or do you want to have any final things to say before Clint and I kind of wrap up any.

Carah Burrell [01:27:32] No, I think we're good.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Anything. The audience is kind of overall, all communicating today that you've been kind of monitoring.

Live Chat Highlights from Listeners

Carah Burrell [01:27:39] I think I highlighted my most favorite ones, but everyone's been very active. Thank you, everyone, for participating in the chat.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] What's the general vibe?

Carah Burrell [01:27:47] We're all just chatting about random things.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:49] I don't know.

Carah Burrell [01:27:50] There's not one way to summarize it, except for everyone is really cool and I love you guys a lot. That's it.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] And anything you want to say to Tony or Peggy or the Salt Tribune or. Or anything you want to say about Thrive or the Oba Stories Foundation? I'm not fishing. You can say.

Carah Burrell [01:28:05] No, I can say the exact truest thing, which is I've worked here since May. John's been a great boss. He's been super transparent with me since the very first day that I sat down in a chair back there. Let me know the good, the bad, the ugly, the history of this entire foundation gave me the opportunity to work here, knowing that we're going to get slander. We're going to get, you know, different people coming after us. And so this is the business, and we understand that. And so if that is in any way interpreted, this whole thing that we just did, as us throwing slander, I hope not. I hope this is just in the. In the good spirit of transparency that the donors, the listeners and publications also know what this organization is about between the OSF and Thrive. So I've worked here since May, and if there was any dirt, I would have found it by now. No, I would have. The black. The blackmail. No, I'm just kidding. The blackmail letter would have been written. No. Now, all I have to say is that this has been a fantastic organization to work for, and I'm super, super impressed with all of the work that Clint, Natasha, John, Jenny, Lisa, that everyone has been extremely. I have to think of a better word than just really awesome and really, really, I'm trying to think of a better word than transparent. Just really forward with all the information and exceeding my expectations, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:29:22] And you emceed a couple of the major Thrive events and you attended the gala. Your testimony of thrive.

Carah Burrell [01:29:28] I'd like to bear my testimony of Thrive. Not because all of my bosses are in the room right now or anything? No, I. I hosted the Thrive women's event. That was like 800 women. It was like one of the funnest days of my life. Tons and tons of people just coming to laugh and support one another. And then I hosted the other big Thrive event, Thrive day. Thrive Day 2021 in November at the big, Big Salt Palace. It was huge. It was exciting. I was just really honored that everyone trusted me enough to give me a microphone more than they already do right now. I'm probably gonna get my mic cut if I say anything else. No, it just has been really fun.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] And you and I danced for four straight hours at the Thrive New Year's gala. True.

Carah Burrell [01:30:10] Yeah. Yeah. It was like I was in hocus pocus and Winnie put a spell over me to dance until I die. Does anyone get that reference? Millennials. You'll get it anyway, so nobody. Nobody in this room.

Clint Martin [01:30:21] All right.

Carah Burrell [01:30:21] Anyway, yeah, we danced really, really hard and had a really good time.

Natasha Helfer [01:30:24] Millennials. Clint.

Closing Thoughts on Thrive and Final Messages

John Dehlin [01:30:27] All right, Clint, final words, final messages for Peggy, for Tony, for the listeners, about Thrive. Anything you want to say?

Clint Martin [01:30:35] Yeah, we just appreciate everyone's support when we host these activities. You know, you kind of feel a little uncomfortable putting yourself out there. Renting the Salt palace doesn't come cheap, and you hope that people want to show up. And we just appreciate all the listeners, all the people that are supporting us by just showing up and being a part of this community. This community is not top down. It's bottom up. It's just, you know, of the people and for the people, you know, I mean, it's not about who's the most important and who's at the top. It's, you know, really just about the people and them having a safe place to go where they can feel loved and accepted, just exactly how they are.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] And it's not about creating a new church. It's not about creating a new patriarchy, and it's not about profiting off of the pain of others. It's literally just to promote healing, growth and community for transitioning and post Mormons.

Clint Martin [01:31:25] That's it.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] What's not? The love.

Clint Martin [01:31:27] That's it.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] And that's a story worth covering again and again and again. In my humble opinion. I will just do a shout out if you want to attend the Thrive event. Thrive day. Thrive Unite. January 22nd. Go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and find the event near you. You can register. These events are selling out these days, and so go now to sell out to, to, to purchase your tickets so that you can attend. And also there's just the standing invitation to. You can, you can go to the Thrive Beyond Religion map and you can find a community near you or you could start your own local community. You can email Clint@ThriveBeyondReligionMail.com and he will help you start your own community or start your own local events. And we're helping St. George do an event in February. So we're going to bring a Thrive event to Saint Saint George, which we're excited about and we'll be releasing soon an event calendar for 2022 and beyond. So, like, we're just getting started, folks. 2022 stands to be the best year ever for Thrive. Am I right?

Clint Martin [01:32:37] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:32:38] Yeah. It's only growing.

Clint Martin [01:32:40] Only growing.

John Dehlin [01:32:40] All right. All right. Clint, thank you so much for joining us and for all your hard work. You're welcome. You're. You're a hero to me and to so many people.

Clint Martin [01:32:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] And Jenny, Shout out to Jenny and to Lisa and to all the Thrive community leaders, all the volunteers that are organizing all these events, all the people so hard and all the people that show up to these events and volunteer like, thank you to all the people and everyone who's made and if Thrive disappears tomorrow, it will have been a phenomenal success. True.

Clint Martin [01:33:14] Absolutely. And you know, I want to just take a quick second to say thank you to you. You know, you're usually the host and so you don't get a chance to let people thank you. But I mean, you know, you have put your ass on the line for this community, you know, for a lot of years and being on the OSF board, I get to see this behind the scenes stuff and you know, it's hard, you know, I mean, there are a lot of haters, you know, I mean, when you're going up against a trillion dollar organization, you know, there's bound to people that are going to be haters and you know, so I just want to say thank you to you for putting yourself and your family, you know, on the line for us. And also to Carah, you know, she's new to this industry, but quickly getting a baptism by fire and realizing how fun it is and how tough it can be too, you know, but anytime I'm out in public with, you know, especially with John, but also with Carah or Natasha for that matter, it's just amazing to see the people walk up and just this heartfelt thanks, you know, and, and just to hear their stories of you've saved my life and thank you for all that you do, you know? So let me be their voice to say thank you to each of you three, actually, because what you're doing is really amazing.

John Dehlin [01:34:24] Thank you.

Carah Burrell [01:34:25] Thanks, Clint. Yeah. As somebody who's like, up front row seats to how hard John De Lynn's job is, so, yeah, I definitely echo what Clint said. So, John, you are like the front man for so much hate from within the Mormon community and from ex Mormons. They carry a lot of trauma with them too.

John Dehlin [01:34:42] Ex Mormons are way worse than Mormons. I'm just gonna say it. There are. Most ex Mormons are phenomenally amazing, but the haters, the ex Mormon haters are the absolute worst, in my opinion.

Carah Burrell [01:34:52] Yeah, it's. I. The best advice that I ever had was at Sunstone. Lindsay Hansen park took me aside and talked to me for an hour about what to expect as a woman in this space. And I was like, taking notes, you know, and she's like, yeah, the Mormons are their own breed, but the ex Mormons carry a lot of trauma with them into this space. So you have to understand people's conditioning, be really gentle and kind with people, understand where they're coming from, and not take anything too personal.

John Dehlin [01:35:16] So.

Carah Burrell [01:35:17] So I'm glad that we did this. We kind of got to air out everything, keep it nice and above board. So everyone really enjoyed this podcast and us answering the questions. So thanks again for everyone in the chat. Thanks, John, Natasha, Clint and Peggy and Tony.

John Dehlin [01:35:31] If you have any other questions, please let us know. And Natasha, thank you for being my partner from, from the very beginning of the Open Stories foundation, for being so supportive, for lending your wisdom, your expertise, all the retreats and workshops we've done together, and for just being a healer in our community. How many marriages and lives, how much mental health have you saved? How many people's sex lives have you helped heal, both with your work and with Symmetry Solutions and all the other things you do? Mormon mental health podcast, etc. We love you, Natasha. We're thankful for you. And we couldn't have made the past 16 years happen without your efforts.

Natasha Helfer [01:36:11] Thank you, John. It was actually longer than that when we first did a Sunstone presentation together, when we barely knew each other when we started. So long, long time ago.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] Yeah, well, I. I'm not going anywhere. Are you going anywhere?

Natasha Helfer [01:36:31] I'm not going anywhere.

Carah Burrell [01:36:32] John.

John Dehlin [01:36:33] Dare you going anywhere.

Natasha Helfer [01:36:34] You're stuck with me.

Carah Burrell [01:36:35] No. Hard as nails. You've met my parents, you know, who I was raised by. I can handle anything.

John Dehlin [01:36:41] And Natasha, you're You're. You're coming back strong.

Natasha Helfer [01:36:44] Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Carah Burrell [01:36:47] Natasha's a light. People are saying that John and Carah are light, and I just want to make sure everyone knows Natasha is a light. She radiates. Clint and Jenny, Lisa, everyone else that we've named are just. If there's anything to be said about, like, oh, ex Mormons, their countenance has changed. Countenance has brightened. Let me tell you, these people that we associate with are such beautiful people, inside and out.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] Kumbaya, my lord. K.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:13] Senses of humor.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Sorry, we just. We just jumped the shark. We officially jumped the shark.

Clint Martin [01:37:20] Must be getting late.

John Dehlin [01:37:21] Time to go home.

Carah Burrell [01:37:23] This is only a 1 hour and 40 minute Mormon stories podcast.

John Dehlin [01:37:26] Mormon stories land speed record by doing an episode in under two hours. All right.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:30] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] Love you guys. Thank you so much. Thanks, Clint.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:33] Love you all.

Clint Martin [01:37:34] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:37:34] Thanks, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:35] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:37:36] Thanks, Carah.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:37] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] Thanks, listeners. You guys are awesome. And thanks Jenny and everyone else. And we'll see you guys all again soon on another another episode of More Stories podcast. Peggy and Tony, reach out. We would love to talk more, answer any other questions you have. We look forward to a really professional, uplifting and positive and fair article from you when you're ready. Thanks, everybody. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.