Introduction and Episode Overview

Guest [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] And welcome to the Mormon Times, a weekly news Mormon news program. We are joined by a distinguished, illustrious panel of Mormon podcasters, including Rebecca Bibliotheca of Mormonist Podcast. Hey, Rebecca.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:00:29] Hi, John. Hi, Bill. Hi, rfm.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] Yeah, we have rfm, Radio Free Mormon from Ready for Mormon Podcast. Hey, rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [00:00:37] Hi, how you doing? I called Patrick Mason to be on the show, but he couldn't make it. John, Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] We should do Brady Bunch. Here's the story of a lovely lady

Radio Free Mormon [00:00:46] I just want to be called in to block.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] We also have Bill Real of Mormonism Live and Mormon discussions fame. Hey, Bill.

Bill Reel [00:00:53] Awesome. How are you guys doing tonight?

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Thanks for joining us.

Radio Free Mormon [00:00:57] Yeah, glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] All right. And I'm John Dehlin of Mormon Stories Podcast. We're going to try and do this podcast weekly. It will either consist of this panel or other alternative panel members that, that we have fill in for us at times. We're really excited. And today we are covering a really significant story, a story that is, is, is getting a lot of attention.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] The title for this episode is Mormon Church Protects Itself from Child Sex Abuse Claims Breaking News. So that's the story. There are actually two art three articles that we're going to be covering tonight at least, and I've actually heard that there's at least another article that'll be coming out by the end of the week.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] To, to provide just a tiny bit of, of context, I'm going to just pull up a couple quick slides. About a year or so ago, I believe Michael Resendez and Jason Diren published an article called 7 Years of Sex Abuse How Mormon Officials Let It Happen.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] That was an article talking about a really horrific case of sexual abuse cover up in Arizona. Any of you, please feel free to interrupt me if I get something wrong or if you want to add something. And then just recently, I don't know how many months ago we were sort of all waiting for to hear kind of what the resolution of that court case would be. And there's an article that came out again by Michael Resendez and Jason Deeren that basically updated US Arizona Court Cites Clergy Privilege Dismisses Child Sex Abuse Lawsuit Against Mormon Church. Now that's a little bit of background. I'm curious if any of you, we don't want to spend too much time on background, but I would love any of you to jump in.

Setting the Stage for Today's Investigation

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Any other important background that we want to, to sort of start off with, to talk about today's articles. Rfm, anything you want to say about that? Yeah, go ahead. Rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [00:02:59] This is a story where I'm starting to become lost in the flurry of stories that are similar to this. There's one from Arizona. There's one over in Oregon. There's one out there in West Virginia that's associated with this case. We'll get to it. They're. They're all over the place. And the difficulty that I have and I feel that sometimes members of my audience have is trying to keep these things straight, which is. Which. Because it's happening everywhere. And this is just another example of the church mishandling a case, or at least in the opinion of many people, mishandling a case to the detriment of victims and to the benefit of abusers.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] Yeah, if I could jump in and just add, one of my favorite movies of all time is a movie called Spotlight. I recommend all of you check it out. But it's basically about, I believe, the Boston Globe investigating the Catholic priest pedophilia, sort of instances that led to a worldwide acknowledgment of systemic priest child sexual abuse and teen sexual abuse. But many are wondering whether Mormon. The Mormon Church is. Is beginning to have its own Spotlight moment. Rebecca, before we jump in, is there anything you want to add?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:04:12] Yeah, I would just really like to commend Michael Rezendez for his work and what he's doing. I actually emailed him today and I told him that those of us in the new monster post Mormon world were launching a podcast and we were going to be discussing his work in our inaugural episode. And he said thank you so much. He appreciated it. And he said good luck. And I feel like you said a flurry of articles. Rfm. I don't. I think we've just seen the beginning. We know there's information out there. We know there are things that can be uncovered. And I think Michael and others like him are. Are on it. And I would just like to commend him for that so that, as you said, a Spotlight can be shown and change can be made.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Love it. Bill, anything you want to add before we jump into the articles themselves?

Bill Reel [00:04:55] I just think we live in a different world today. You know, you. You live in the age of the Internet, so information is at the. At the end of your finger, just typing in a few buttons. And I also think that we're. The world is changing. We're becoming more aware of people who are different than us, people who,

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:05:14] you

Bill Reel [00:05:14] know, if I go back 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, generally you tended to own people that were just like you. And now we live In a world where through social media, through world news, you sort of get to know other people's stories. And because information is prevalent, I just don't think the systemic protections that I think we're in the. In place in the past because of, I think systems having a degree of privilege, I think some of that's coming to an end. And you're seeing a moment where everybody's kind of having to adjust how they deal with these things. You can't cover things up. You can't withhold stuff. You can't obfuscate the truth and not have a light shined on it in 2023.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Yeah. Yep, things are getting serious. All right, well, we welcome our. We do have a live audience. We're streaming this to all of our respective podcast YouTube channels. We're also recording it audio only, and to a couple Facebook pages as well. But kind of the idea is just for all of us to be promoting the consumption and the study and the discussion of news across our platform. So we welcome everyone, regardless of which platform you're joining us today. What I think we should do is, is I'm going to just kind of.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] I think it might make sense for us to kind of read the article and respond to it. And what I'll ask is just for each panelist just to say pause whenever you want. I'm going to play more of the role of moderator, less of the role of commenter. Today we're going to rotate who the moderators are in future episodes. Does that sound all right? Everybody sounds great.

Radio Free Mormon [00:06:53] Absolutely.

Reading the AP Investigation Into Church Abuse Cases

John Dehlin [00:06:54] All right, so let's. Let's jump in and maybe I'll do this view. So we'll. The. The people can. The people can kind of see us as we're reading. So the first article that I'm going to be reading is entitled Recordings show how the Mormon Church Protects Itself from Child Sex Abuse Claims.

Radio Free Mormon [00:07:14] Pause. Go ahead, RFM this is really, to me, the significance of this article, and I think it may have been too, as well to the person who made that headline, because we've certainly seen worse examples both of how the church has acted and the. The abuse that has been suffered. But the amazing thing here is that they've got recordings now of a church attorney named writing, R Y T T I N G a guy from Salt Lake City coming out and sitting down and having a negotiated settlement with the victims. In this case, we have the tapes. We get to hear what happened. It's not just hearing what somebody said happened in the meeting. We actually get to hear it going down. I think that is one of the most remarkable parts of this story. And there's two clips about a minute long embedded in this article, which I'm sure you're going to play. John.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] Absolutely. And I'll apologize in advance. The audio clips don't have the, the volume level that we would all like. So just when you hear the two little one minute clips, just turn up your volume and then turn it back down. Could I add one quick yeah, please, Rebecca? Yeah.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:08:26] I know it's mentioned somewhere in the article that this is an example of the risk management playbook. And I think if we keep that in mind as we're reading through this, you will really get a window into what that is. If you keep that in mind, this is a detailed account of the church's risk management playbook, which I think a lot of us are seeing for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] That.

Bill Reel [00:08:46] And just to note, Rebecca, when they put that phrase in this, it was in quotation marks. So my assumption is that it's somebody on the conversation that was recorded that side of things that use that exact phrase.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] And I hope Mormon church members will record their conversations more and more. We've tried to, wherever it's legal. We've tried to encourage people to record, you know, interviews with bishops, interviews with stake presidents, visits with general authorities when they speak, because transparency is important. Don't do anything illegal. But, you know, there's no accountability if there's no record. And so we, we really. I agree with you guys. That's a really important part of the story.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] All right, well, uh, let's go ahead and read. Uh, through it, there is a photo of one of the victims, Chelsea Goodrich. It says, Chelsea Goodrich poses for a portrait at a friend's house in Ketchum, Idaho on Thursday, September 19, 2023. It says Ketchum's father, a popular Idaho dentist and former bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, widely known as the Mormon Church, was excommunicated after sharing details about his relationship with her when she was a child. All right, so let's go ahead and read the article. And again, y' all pause me. So Michael Resendez and Jason Darren are the authors published today.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Haley, Idaho. Paul, writing, listened as a woman, voice quavering, told him her story. When she was a child, her father, a former bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, had routinely slipped into bed with her while he was aroused. She said, now I'm going to pause myself and note that I think that, that some of this Abuse happened while he was a Mormon bishop. And for me, that's important to mention because I was taught growing up as a Mormon and as an adult that Mormon bishops have the gift of what?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:10:46] Discernment.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] And the stake presidents and church leaders have the gift of discernment. So automatically, I'm just never going to stop highlighting that teaching. Because what this means is, if I understand it right, is not only the stake president, but I think the prophet, Mormon prophet himself, approves the calling of bishops.

Radio Free Mormon [00:11:05] They do.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] That means that the Mormon prophet and possibly the stake president both were lacking the gift of discernment when. When this man was called as bishop.

Radio Free Mormon [00:11:18] Well, they sure got it wrong with Bill.

Bill Reel [00:11:20] I was gonna say I, I got a letter when I was called as a bishop that they gave me a letter from church headquarters that had the church president's signature on it that said, you are officially called as a bishop in the church. I still have that somewhere. I don't know where it's at, but I still have it. So when you say, like you think that's what happens? No, no, that's what happens. It definitely gets the first presidency's approval, at least in terms of letterhead.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Yeah. And it was. So the, the, the perpetrator, the dentist. And the former bishop is named John Goodrich. And we'll, we'll keep reading. So let's see. It was March 2017. And writing. Writing offered his sympathies. As a 31 year old, Chelsea Goodrich spoke, a Utah attorney and head of the church's risk management division. Writing had spent about 15 years protecting the organization widely known as the Mormon Church from costly claims, including sexual abuse lawsuits.

Bill Reel [00:12:27] Can we pause there?

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Yeah, please, Bill.

Bill Reel [00:12:29] And again, we're gonna probably pause a million times, hopefully.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] That's all right. That's all right.

Bill Reel [00:12:34] I just want to note that the church is going to, throughout this process, claim that they're including on their website that their priority, the top thing they do, is protect victims from abuse. But when you have an agency that oversees those claims called the Risk Management, you recognize that. And again, just as that paragraph said that the number one priority doesn't matter what the lips are saying, what actually is happening is that number one priority is to protect the church from legal recourse. And those two things, protecting victims and protecting a church from legal action, are often in disagreement. And the church is playing word games by claiming that it protects victims as a priority.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] So rfm, I mean, Bill Rio. I'll just, you know, I worked for corporations like Microsoft. It's normal for corporations to have risk management divisions. So for a corporation, it's absolutely normal. I'm guessing they're just adopting corporate best practices. Is that fair to say? And are you just saying maybe churches should have a higher standard?

Bill Reel [00:13:40] I'm saying that if your wording on your own website is that your priority is to protect victims, but your priority is actually to protect yourself from lawsuits, those are two very different things. And how the church chooses to protect itself is one thing. How the church then articulates that position in a way that's honest is a completely separate thing that we're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] So basically, Bill, you're saying it's not the church's top priority to protect victims.

Bill Reel [00:14:08] I'm saying. I'm saying that victims have a right to know what the church's priority is so that they can make informed decisions about who they go and talk to first.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] Okay, got it. All right, let's keep reading. Writing had flown into Haley, Idaho. Does anybody know where Haley, Idaho is, by the way? Is it near Boise? Is it. Somebody Google it. Somebody Google it while I'm. While I'm reading. Writing and floated in Haley, Idaho, that morning. Maybe our viewers will. Will tell us in the chat. Haley, Idaho, that morning from Salt Lake City, where the church is based, to meet in person with Chelsea and her mother, Lorraine. All right, and so now we have. It says after a quick prayer, he introduced himself and said he was there to look into Chelsea's tragic and horrendous story.

Radio Free Mormon [00:14:58] Pause.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Yeah, Rebecca, I was gonna.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:15:01] I'm sorry. I was reading this today at work, and as soon as I read that, I thought, oh, I see. You know, because obviously Chelsea and her mother, I'm assuming, at least at this point, we're members of the church because they talk about their ward and the treatment there. And by saying a prayer together, that sets him up as an ally. Much like Bill said, they believe he's going to be looking out for their best interest. They're going to work together to try to come to some resolution. And I can only imagine in the prayer something like that was stated, you know, help us all to work together. I mean, it's just to ally yourself right away, when really it's more of maybe a wolf in sheep's clothing kind of a situation.

Guest [00:15:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] Let me ask. Let me ask the panel that, like, on the one hand, bishops are the fathers of the ward. This bishop possibly had been involved in past discussions with. With the dad, John Goodrich. A lot of people love their bishops. On the other hand, the church is coming to make some sort of financial offer and legal settlement. There are legal issues involved. And having the bishop there could be viewed as a conflict of interest. Anybody want to speak to that?

Radio Free Mormon [00:16:09] I do. Because I think that phrase is the most important phrase in the entire story because of what it import. I'm sorry, conflict of interest? No, after a quick prayer.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Oh, okay. Got it.

Radio Free Mormon [00:16:22] After a quick prayer. So here you've got the man who represents the church, all right, he's coming out there, he's got his white shirt on, he's got his suit, he's got his conservative tie. They're going to have a quick prayer. I mean, where else in the world do you start negotiation settlements with a prayer?

Radio Free Mormon [00:16:44] So he's out there. Number one, he represents the church. Number two, they're going to start with a quick prayer to establish the fact that we're all members here and I'm the one from the church. And I think everybody knows, at least if you've been a member of the church, that we are raised and inculcated to understand that we go along with what the church encourages us to do.

Radio Free Mormon [00:17:06] And although it is not stated in this article, I will bet you that this meeting was held at an LDS meeting house. The guy's flying out from Utah. He doesn't have an office there. Where are they going to meet? Well, they're probably going to meet at the church. And this is why I've heard this from in other situations where these kinds of meetings have taken place at the church. And I want to ask you something as you go along and you play these two clips, because there are indications that Chelsea Goodrich and her mom, Lorraine Goodrich have an attorney already when these meetings are taking place, where is the attorney?

The Settlement Offer and Chelsea Goodrich's Story

Radio Free Mormon [00:17:49] Why is the attorney not present? And is this something that the church attorney has insisted on that their attorney not be present? This is also going to play. I'm sorry, I have a lot of questions about this story. But this is also going to play into why was it that these meetings were allowed to be recorded in the first place?

Radio Free Mormon [00:18:09] I believe the reason why is so that they could take them back and play them for their attorneys who were not allowed to be present in the meeting and may or may not have been happy about the fact that their clients decided to exclude them from the meeting in favor of meeting with the church's attorney without the attorneys present. You'll hear references to that in both of these one minute clips. The idea that they have an attorney currently at the time this meeting is taking place.

Radio Free Mormon [00:18:34] So I'm seeing a lot of home court advantage going on. And frankly, given the fact that this is a disturbing situation, it's a disturbing subject. Nobody likes to talk about it. I find it very disturbing that church attorneys appear to be acting in this kind of way in order to try and get their way with people who are actually potentially on the other side of the V from them.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Yeah. Okay, really quickly, thank you for that rfm. And for those of you who don't know, Radio Free Mormon is an attorney. Kevin Perney educates us. Haley, Idaho is adjacent to Sun Valley Ketchup, Idaho. I think. Bill, I think you wrote in the private chat that it's snap, smack dab between Boise and Idaho Falls. And for those who aren't from Idaho or Utah, they'll have no idea what we're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] All right, let's go ahead and, let's go ahead and play the audio clip. Is that okay? We'll play the first audio clip and again, turn up your audio for just one minute. If, if it's too low, we, we couldn't raise it. So this says, this is the sound of Paul writing, director of the LDS Church's risk management division, making a $300,000 offer to Chelsea Goodrich and her mother Lorraine in exchange for their silence. Ra Regarding Chelsea's father, John Goodrich, or I should say Bishop John Goodrich, because you're always a bishop who Chelsea accused of sexually abusing.

Guest [00:20:01] I sent you a letter indicating that the church was prepared to assist up to $90,000. I've been back and I explained a little bit more detail to those who make these decisions and indicated that one of the best ways we can help is you to. And is it your mother? Yes. To try to figure a way to. One of the things that you pleaded for is just, can we have some this little stability? And so I have authorization up to $300,000. And I want to talk to you about that though, because how you decide to spend that is, could be, could be complicated. If a check is payable to the two of you, then if your attorneys don't get paid, then guess what, they file liens against you and they end up with the money that this was supposed intended to help.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] All right, let me give each of you a chance to respond. Rebecca, I want you to go first.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:21:13] I'm sorry, I had not listened to the audio today because I was at work. I was just reading. Just even hearing the things that he's saying and the way he's talking is extremely triggering.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] Why? How so?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:21:22] I don't know. Just the tone that he's using. He's trying to use that tone that's in between. I don't know, what would I call it? Church speak kind of. It's that kind of voice that he's just using that those women are going to recognize when he's trying to convince you to do something, but in a very kind and nice way, but he is going to convince you to do it. So I don't know. It was very interesting the way he was talking. And RFM is correct. It looks like they do have attorneys. Why are those attorneys not there in the room? That was kind of why I was making a face that's a little disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Yeah. Bill, you go next.

Bill Reel [00:21:53] I was just gonna know what Rebecca did. RFM hit it on the head. You can tell by that statement that the lawyers are not present their side, the victim's side. And that says a lot like whatever caused that. Because there isn't any really good reason for the victims themselves to go, hey, I just not gonna have my lawyer involved. It seems as though that would have to be pushed by the church to be the case for the conversation to take place. And hence, you know that you have people in the room who, while being emotional, which they couldn't help but be in these kinds of situations, don't have the rational, logical lawyer who's not emotionally attached there to give wisdom on how they should handle these things every step along the way.

Bill Reel [00:22:36] And. And again, add that to starting off with prayer. Add that to this guy representing the church and sort of presiding at this meeting. Right. What you end up with is a situation that is highly prone to manipulation.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Yeah, yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:22:53] By the way, the way this is supposed to happen, okay, the way this is always going to happen is you've got attorneys meeting, the attorneys talk to each other, then they come up with something. They go back to their clients, they talk to their clients, and then they talk some more. It's attorney to attorney in the regular world, but the. Oh, but here it is not. It's attorney to the other side's clients.

Radio Free Mormon [00:23:15] And the only way that the client's attorneys are not, or I should say, these. Let's say Chelsea, okay? Since she appears to be the primary victim here, Chelsea Goodrich, the only reason, her attorney, if we're correct in our conclusion that she has an attorney at the time, and it sounds like it here, it's going to sound like it again in the next one.

Radio Free Mormon [00:23:32] The only reason she doesn't have the attorney there is because she chose to not have her attorney present. That's the only way that her attorney doesn't show up. And in fact, not only does she choose to not have her attorney present, she has to overcome the arguments from her attorney as to why he should be present and she shouldn't be going there without him. So she definitely made that decision, and that's the only way it would happen. And why would she make that decision? Because that's what the church wanted her to do. She wouldn't make that decision without any kind of compulsion is maybe too strong a word, but let's just say gentle nudging and maybe more than gentle nudging from the church that they're not going to have this meeting unless she shows up without her lawyer.

Radio Free Mormon [00:24:15] But we'll let you record it so you can take it back to your lawyer later. Maybe that was something that was agreed upon as some sort of concession.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] I. I'll. I'll just make. Oh, go ahead, Bill.

Bill Reel [00:24:28] The lawyer notes, here's our offer. 300,000. But here's what's going to happen. The lawyers, if you don't pay them, they're going to put liens on everything, and they're going to take all your money. Notice that language pits the victims against their own legal representation, which I don't think there's any business doing in a situation like this.

Radio Free Mormon [00:24:48] I think that's an excellent point that you make there, Mr. Real. It definitely does. And this whole discussion is basically, we could pay you direct, correctly. We're going to write the checkout, right? Because it's basically a done deal where we're assuming that you're going to accept this. So we're going to send the check. Who do we make the checkout to? If we make it up to you, your attorneys could want their money out of it. Or if we make it out to the attorneys, then they'll deduct what it is that's owed them before they give you what's left over, which is probably what should have happened, what may have happened.

Radio Free Mormon [00:25:16] I don't know what happened. But, you know, speaking for the attorneys, that's the way it's supposed to happen. You don't have attorneys representing somebody, and then as an attorney, you go to the client, make a deal, and cut the other attorney out of the loop. That's. This is crazy. This only happens in Haley, Idaho. I guess.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] My guess is this isn't the first time this has happened. I just say I'm reminded of an interview I did with Adam Paul Steed during the Jody Hildebrandt stuff, where before his Jody Hilderbrand stuff, he was a Boy Scout in Idaho, I believe, and became a whistleblower against child teen sexual abuse with Mormon Scout leaders in Idaho. He and his dad, as I understand it, helped change the laws in Idaho to make it so there wasn't such a short statute of limitations for victims of child sexual abuse in Idaho. But for me, what I remember from his story is how much the Mormon Church pressured Adam and his dad to not sue for punitive damages, to not sue the church or the Boy Scouts, I think, for punitive damages.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] And that's just an example of how the church leans on its members using their belief and their trust in the church to accept a disadvantageous or an inadequate settlement. Did I get that right or wrong, anyone?

Radio Free Mormon [00:26:41] That's what I recall too. And I suppose my problem with this, and this is my main point tonight, so I'll remain relatively silent throughout the proceedings, I think. But that's, that's the main thing is you have members who you have raised and trained to trust you as the leaders of the church. And what are you going to do with that trust once it's established? Well, in this case, it appears that you're going to abuse that trust in order to manipulate these people based upon that trust to get them to do things that nobody else in any other situation would ever do.

Guest [00:27:11] Yeah.

Clergy Privilege and the Church's Legal Strategy

John Dehlin [00:27:13] All right. Well, let's keep going with the article. After a quick prayer, he, this is writing, introduced himself and said he was there to look into Chelsea's tragic and horrendous story. Chelsea and Lorraine, that's Chelsea's mom, had come to the meeting. So that that suggests it's not at the house.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Come to the meeting with one clear request. Would the Mormon Church allow a local Idaho bishop, which the Mormon Church is akin to a Catholic priest in the Mormon Church is akin to a Catholic priest to testify at Good Riches trial. So the mom and the daughter wanted the bishop to testify against the perpetrator, the dad, Bishop Michael Miller, who accompanied Writing to the meeting, had heard a spiritual confession from Chelsea's father, that is John Goodrich, shortly before John was arrested on charges of sexually abusing her. While the details of his confession remain private, the Mormon Church swiftly excommunicated Goodrich. That's good to hear. Anybody just give the church credit for swiftly excommunicating Bishop John Goodrich?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:28:24] I guess that was a good thing. I have one comment about that. Did you notice that it says that the bishop Michael Miller accompanied writing? He didn't come with, you know, the women that are trying to ask him, could you please tell our story? He came with the attorney. That's kind of a united front in front of the women, I think.

Radio Free Mormon [00:28:41] Yeah. And it's not just a nameless suit from Salt Lake. Now he's got the bishop, their bishop, on his side of the table. Yeah, good point, Rebecca.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] Good point, Rebecca. All right. Audio recordings of the meetings over the next four months obtained by the Associated Press, show how writing, despite expressing concern for what he called John's significant sexual transgression, would employ the risk management playbook. That's Rebecca, you want us to remember that term, the rmp, the Risk management playbook that has helped the Mormon Church keep child sexual abuse cases secret. I think the Church would deny that characterization. In particular, the Church would discourage Miller from testifying, citing an Idaho law that exempts clergy from having to divulge information about child sex abuse that is gleaned in a confession without Miller's testimony. This is important. Prosecutors dropped the charges, telling Lorraine that her impending divorce and the years that had passed since Chelsea's alleged abuse might prejudice jurors. RFM Help us interpret that legal speak, will you?

Radio Free Mormon [00:29:50] Yeah, I take exception to it because I think it's mischaracterizing the nature of things. I don't blame Lorraine or Chelsea Goodrich for not understanding the law in Idaho, but to come to the Church and ask the Church for its help in having the bishop testify as to what John Goodrich, the perpetrator, told him in a confession is completely backward because the Church has no power to keep him from testifying. I mean, I suppose they could tell him, you know, we don't want you to testify. You got to be careful there, because that's called tampering with a witness. And that's a. That's a felony in most states.

Radio Free Mormon [00:30:28] But there is a clergy penitent privilege that attaches under the law in Idaho. I looked it up. It's the same as in lots of states, same as in this state. It's been there for a long time, since probably before the founding of the country.

Radio Free Mormon [00:30:40] But that privilege belongs to one person and one person only. And in this situation, it's John Goodrich. He holds the keys to that. And he can allow the bishop to testify. Of course, he'd be nuts to allow him to testify as to what John Goodrich told him in a confessional setting. But it's not the Church's prerogative. It's not the Church's privilege, and it's not the bishop's privilege. It is John Goodrich's privilege. And frankly, there's no attorney in the world that I know of, and I know a few who would ever go to trial or go to court and not invoke on behalf of their client a priest or clergy penitent privilege in a situation such as this.

Radio Free Mormon [00:31:29] So it's not remarkable to me at all that it would be invoked. It would be invoked by John Goodrich or his attorney on his behalf. And that's kind of the end of the story from my point of view. What do you think?

John Dehlin [00:31:43] Any other thoughts from the panel?

Bill Reel [00:31:46] I. Will you put that back up for just a moment? There's. There's a text there.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] Yeah.

Bill Reel [00:31:52] Where it says about being exempt. I'm just trying to find the spot here. In particular, you would discourage Miller from testifying, citing a law that exempts clergy from having to divulge. There's a big difference in this world between rules that somebody is absolutely not allowed to do something and they may or may not do something. And the Church is articulating the argument almost as if, like, sorry, our hands are tied. It's just an absolute no here. We. We just can't violate the laws, when in reality the laws allow either or. It really feels sort of carefully worded, and it doesn't feel like an appropriate way to present to the victims what the rules are and why you're handling it the way that you are.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] You're muted, rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:47] No, I'm not. I don't know what you're talking about.

Guest [00:32:48] Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:49] Okay, Mr. Delin, if that is your

John Dehlin [00:32:51] real name, you're not muted, so.

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:54] No. There is an important distinction to make here, and I'm not sure it's been made enough or that it's clear enough. There are two completely separate issues at play in these cases, and sometimes they get conflated together, much to a lot of people's confusion. There is the privilege, which I've just described, and I won't describe again. Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [00:33:12] There's also reporting requirements, and those are completely separate. And sometimes they're in completely separate statutes. Now, the privilege is ironclad in the state of Utah. I even. I looked it up and I have it here in front of me, and it says this. I could give you the title if you want. It's in their evidence rules. They have them in their evidence rules in Washington. Some of it are in the evidence rules, others are in statutes. But this is under chapter 2. Witnesses sub 3. A clergyman or priest cannot, cannot without the consent of the person making the confession be examined as to any confession made to him in his professional character in the course of discipline enjoined by the church to which he belongs, period.

Radio Free Mormon [00:34:02] And that's the end of the privilege. And this is number three, because there's all the other privileges in here. Attorney client, husband, wife privilege, physician patient privilege, all the different privileges are there, but the reporting requirement is something completely different. It's not mentioned there. So for instance, like in Arizona, where they have the same privilege, a bishop is allowed to contact law enforcement and report what it is that was just confessed to him.

Radio Free Mormon [00:34:32] But that, that's a reporting issue, it's not a testifying issue at court later on if it comes to court, because you can have both those things existing at the same time. And they do. Apparently in Arizona, it's not that uncommon that a bishop can report or a priest can report what is told to him in confession. If it is that bad, it's up to them as to whether they make that they have that option. But just because they've reported and can report it to police doesn't mean that they can then testify about it at trial without the consent of the person making the confession. Did that make anything more clear?

John Dehlin [00:35:10] That's great. We appreciate that.

Bill Reel [00:35:11] The question is, did they take the time to explain that to them?

Radio Free Mormon [00:35:16] Right.

Bill Reel [00:35:16] Like as the victims, do they understand how all of this works? And hopefully again, their attorneys are involved, but to some extent not involved enough because they're not in the room with them.

Radio Free Mormon [00:35:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] The point I, I want to make, and Rebecca, I want to get you in, if you want to say anything else, but it's that at least in the cases of Arizona, Idaho and Utah, the Mormon church disproportionately has a disproportionately high representation in the state legislatures. Obviously the Mormon church dominates the Utah state legislature. And I'm only assuming that they have a disproportional representation in Idaho and Arizona. So when the church is like, oh, we gotta follow the law, well, that's not quite accurate because I think the church is making the law, and I believe the church is making the law not with the top priority.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Well, I mean, I guess that's a question the church would say, and we've covered this before, the church would say they advocate for privilege. I guess the, you know, you know, parishioner priest privilege, I'm getting the term wrong, but the church would say they advocate for that because maybe a member of the church wouldn't feel safe to, to confess and repent. With the bishop if they didn't believe that their confessions were protected. So I think that's why, you know, if they believe the bishop was going to turn them into the police. So I believe that's why the church would claim they advocate for these sorts of exemptions in the law in states where they control the states.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] I think others would probably accuse the church of doing this to minimize their potential legal liability. Any, any comments, Rebecca? Did you want to jump in on any of this?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:36:54] Yeah, I know in one of these articles there were several that we were reading. They definitely made the point that the church lobbies hard along with the Catholic Church. Jehovah's Witnesses were the ones that were mentioned to not have any of these laws to not make clergy mandatory. Reporters. I went to the capitol, I think it was last year with a sign. There was, there was something going on in the legislature about mandatory reporting. Of course it didn't pass. But they, they definitely seem to work to lobby against this kind of thing. And I know what they believe, or at least say they believe is exactly what you say, John, that, well, this will stop people from coming in and confessing.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:37:29] Well, if they don't confess, the abuse doesn't stop because they're still doing it. If they do confess, no one lets the proper authorities know and the abuse doesn't stop so the victim has no help whatsoever. I think the church's concern, and I know I had looked up stopping abuse on the church website. There's a, there's a whole section, you know, about what a great job they do and they're concerned, really just seeing seems to be for the repentance of the perpetrator. And it actually says saving their soul. Well, they're saving their soul at the expense of sacrificing a victim who in many cases, horrific cases, it goes on for almost a decade.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] Yeah. All right, thanks for that, Rebecca. All right, well should we go ahead and keep reading? Let's, let's do it. The next thing I think I want to play is the, the audio clip. We've got the next audio clip that again, it's a minute and 33 seconds long. Please turn it up if you can't hear it and then turn back down. What's that? Rfm.

Radio Free Mormon [00:38:32] Listen for the reference to their lawyers.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] Okay. This clip says recording show how the Mormon Church protects itself from child sex abuse claims. Sound of Paul writing, director of the Risk Management division for the LDS Church, explaining the $300,000 confidentiality agreement to Lorraine Goodrich, the mother of Chelsea Goodrich. Who accused her father, John Goodrich, of sexually abusing her. I think this is the second clip. Let's roll it.

Guest [00:38:56] We both agree that we will not disclose that we've settled with you, and you will not disclose that you settled with the church other than your attorney or financial advisors, and they must maintain confidentiality as well. Okay, second paragraph. I'll be interested in your response, but the recommendation is, is that you acknowledge that there's been some recordings made of all of our communications and that you agree to destroy Those recordings within 10 days of signing this.

Guest [00:39:27] And I guess the reason why that is, is I've had my deposition taken before. I've had. And if, if your attorney wants to listen to it, take the right piece that mischaracterized what we were talking about for 25 minutes. They would just want to take the statement that is 3 or 30 seconds or 20 seconds, take it out of context. I don't have any way to defend whether or not it's going to be taken out of context or not. So that's why that's in there.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] All right, Bill, let's have you go first this time. Let's see. Let's give you each a chance to give one reaction. So, Bill, unmute yourself and tell us what your one reaction is.

Bill Reel [00:40:10] Do you think that that's the number one reason why they don't want the audio shared? And if it's not, then you shouldn't tell somebody. That's your main reason.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] So, Bill, you're claiming that the, the. His motive for the church in, in requesting that they not destroy the recordings is that he's worried that he might be mischaracterized. Is that right?

Bill Reel [00:40:30] I, I think most audio of this type against the LDS Church actually hurts the church. Church worse when it's shown in its full entirety. Take, take a disciplinary court transcript or audio, for instance.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] I know a little bit about that recording.

Guest [00:40:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] Rfm, you go next. Then, Rebecca, really quick.

Radio Free Mormon [00:40:54] You did catch the two references to their attorneys in that one. One in the middle about your attorneys might want to listen to it. And then toward the end, talking about your attorney could take a snippet out of context. And that's why the attorney. Your attorney, Chelsea, your attorney, Lorraine, why your attorneys are also bound by the same confidentiality as to destroying these tapes.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] Okay, Rebecca, what do you want to add? Anything?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:41:20] Just that tone is so triggering. You can just hear that he's. He's acting like their friend, like they're on the same side. He's putting questions out even Getting Chelsea or Lorraine. Which other one. That said. Yeah, out of context. You know, he's just leading them to completely agree with what he's asking.

John Dehlin [00:41:38] Yeah, yeah. And what did you guys think about that language? I've been authorized to approve up to $300,000. I would just not think of a church official using that. I mean, that's total corporate language. I'm sure it's total attorney's language, but, like.

Radio Free Mormon [00:41:55] Well, it's total insurance language. This is when you're settling a PI case.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:00] With an insurance representative.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] I was just gonna think, how much would Jesus authorize for a sex abuse settlement? Like, it's weird hearing that come from a church leader. Right?

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:10] It is that. And that's the strangeness of it, because this is what an insurance rep says. They come in authorized to give this much, then you talk a bit. Then they go back to the people who have the authorization keys. Let's call them keys, shall we, as to how much they are allowed to spend on this case, and then they go back, they get a higher authorization, and then you come back, and maybe you can work something out. But that's what I think of when I hear this language. What I think that they want Lorraine and Chelsea to hear is that I have to go back to unspecified people above me, which may or may not include some or all of the members of the top 15.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Yeah. Okay, that's interesting. I think. I would guess that it would be interesting or useful for members to kind of hear how the sausage is made in terms of these negotiations, because I have direct knowledge that these negotiations are happening monthly in a reasonably large number, because I know attorneys that are involved in these negotiations, and they've talked to me about this.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:43:14] Them.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] So the. The church has, just like this, as I understand it, a big, long list of monthly settlements that they're constantly making. So I do not. I do not. I'm going to take the position that it's my understanding that this sort of thing we're hearing about is not, like, rare. This is like a regular thing that curtain McConkey attorneys do.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] All right, let's keep going. Pause me when you want. It says writing would also offer hundreds of thousands of dollars in exchange for a confidentiality agreement and a pledge by Chelsea and Lorraine to destroy their recordings of the meetings which they had made at the recommendation of an attorney with writing's knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Today, John Goodrich, who did not respond to the AP's questions, is a free man practicing dentistry in Idaho. Let me just ask. Is $300,000 the right amount. And if the church is offering $300,000, it must be admitting some sort of guilt. And if it's admitting guilt, what guilt do we guess the church is admitting here? And I know it'll probably talk about it more as we go on, but does anyone have any theories about any of those questions? First of all, is $300,000 the right amount or not? Too low, too high.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:44:30] I was curious about that because at first he offered 90 and then suddenly jumped to 300. What happened in between? You know, it's not like a small increment. Oh, now we'll give you 110. Okay. I mean, it went from 90 to 300. Something happened. Yeah, something.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] That's a good point.

Bill Reel [00:44:48] I do wonder how many people take the lowball offer, you know, without knowing they could have pressed a little and the church's legal guy could have gone back to the higher ups and asked a few questions, made a few statements and came back with an offer that was, you know, three and a half times as high.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:45:05] They know now, I mean, I'm curious,

John Dehlin [00:45:08] like, I think a lot of us who, who saw the church as the one true church or who still do sort of hold the church to this higher standard of expecting them to act in some sort of Christlike way that sets it apart from a corporation. On the other hand, I could hear practical, believing, progressive Mormon say, hey, look, it's a corporation. It's going to act like a corporation when it's doing things like legal settlements. But this idea of lowballing and then like negotiating and then coming up if they feel threatened, that does feel unseemly to me. Again, as, as the church that claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ, especially knowing it's got $200 billion in wealth and assets at least. But is that an unfair. Are we being unfair to expect the church to behave anything other than a corporation when it's doing legal stuff? Or is that, is that unfair? Anyone?

Bill Reel [00:46:07] I'll only say that in southern Utah, where I live, $300,000 will buy you a pretty low, low house in the area, right? And these folks, they're whatever their legal fees are, whatever therapy cost, whatever other expenses they have, whether that amount is fair or not, I don't know. But I know that when it's all said and done, they actually don't have much of that to go towards them.

Radio Free Mormon [00:46:38] I'll throw in here and just say, first off, the 90,000. And that was several months before this meeting where he unveils a $300,000 offer. It has the earmarks of here's 90,000. And then they go and they talk to an attorney. And now attorney does get involved. And now, because this happens with insurance companies, right, all of a sudden, now they're going to up their offer because now an attorney's involved who may or may not know what they're doing. Right. But it makes them be a little bit more honest, even though the attorney was not allowed to be in the meeting, apparently. But I've got to tell you, based upon the allegations here that are in the story, where there's no touching, apparently, where there's no.

Radio Free Mormon [00:47:21] I mean, this is a very unusual case, and you'll get to it when you read the facts of it. I am surprised that they went as high as $300,000 for this case.

John Dehlin [00:47:35] So based on RFM, you're saying it might be a high amount for the facts of the case?

Radio Free Mormon [00:47:40] Absolutely. And that's just my take on it, by the way. And also when you factor into it the fact that the bishop is her dad, who apparently, according to allegations, is not operating as a bishop at any given time. Okay, this is. Gets into the doctrine of respond superior. And I'll take you back to my first year of law school. But the basic thing is this is if I've got a business, right? Let's say I'm working for a business, okay? And I go, and I am as a. As the person in the business, doing my job for the business, making deliveries, whatever it is, and I hit somebody in a company vehicle and I injure them.

Radio Free Mormon [00:48:19] Now not only am I liable, but also the company's liable. And that's important because usually companies have deeper pockets than individual employees. So we've got a situation here. Oh, let me. Let me finish that thought. Which is, if I'm an employee of a company, but it's a weekend, I'm not working for the company, I'm in my own car and I go out and I injure somebody. Now I'm on the hot seat, but the company isn't, because I was not acting in my capacity as an employee of the company at the time it happened. Okay, does that part make sense so far?

John Dehlin [00:48:54] I think so.

Radio Free Mormon [00:48:55] Okay. So applying that doctrine here, I don't see anything in these allegations that indicate that the bishop was acting as a bishop. In other words, it wasn't like during a confession or a youth interview or a church outing or girls camp or anything else that we could think of where a bishop is acting in his capacity as a bishop when he does something that would then allow the doctrine of responding superior to apply and the church to be sued successfully. So I see this as something where something else is at play more than just perhaps the liability the church thinks it would suffer if there were a lawsuit. And it may have been a PR move as well, that they wanted to. To give extra money above and beyond what the case was really worth in order to keep it quiet.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] I'm remembering the interview we did when the Resendez story broke last year where it showed the the list that Curt McConkey attorneys read from when they get calls on the abuse hotline. And as I recall, it was like, did the abuse happen on church property? Did it happen by a leader in the church? And those were really important questions for sort of risk or assessment management. I do think that this continues to, you know, ask us to consider, what did the church do? Why is it paying? I guess we'll read more from the story. Bill, did you want to make a quick comment?

Bill Reel [00:50:22] Yeah. Just to that point, which is as we're listening to the details of the case, it doesn't really seem as though the church was negligent in any way. Right. It seems as if the payoff is essentially, don't go public and tell a story that conveys to the public that the spirit of discernment doesn't work. That seems like it's at the crux of what this is about. In other words, you're paying them to keep quiet about a bishop who did really bad things in the off hours. And that seems to indicate. What is it that you're afraid of? Well, you're afraid of people learning that your church called a guy as a leader of a congregation and meanwhile he is sexually assaulting others. Yeah, the spirit of discernment doesn't work in spite of what Elder Eyring tells us.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:51:11] I think you could also say that doesn't a bishop have the mantle at all times? That's what I was taught. A bishop is always a bishop, whatever he's doing. So that does speak to discernment, too.

Guest [00:51:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] All right, let's keep reading. It says, going into this meeting with writing, I felt like it would be very clear once everything's laid out, that, look, this is not something that we want to cover up, said Eric Alberty. This is a new character. Eric Alberty, a church member who attended the meetings as Chelsea's advocate and also made recordings which he shared with the ap.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] So introduction of a new character. He's the guy that did the recordings and shared them with the ap, quote, this is something that we want to uncover for a number of reasons so that John doesn't do this again, so that Chelsea can move forward, said Alber D, who was not bound by the confidentiality agreement and who has since left the church. You know, covering this up did not make any sense. So there's Alber D, a church member, basically stating, you know, we, the church, doesn't. Shouldn't be covering things up. It's not good to cover things up.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] In a statement to the ap, the church, the Mormon Church, said, quote, the abuse of a child or any other individual is inexcusable and that John Goodrich, following his excommunication, has not been readmitted to church membership. Now, we're going to read the Desert News article if we have time.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Does anybody want to respond to the church's statement that the abuse of a child or any other vigil is inexcusable? I mean, I guess that's the right thing to say, right?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:52:48] I think you can say that. But then do your actions support that? I mean, like I said, I read through the church's handbook or the website, and I think Bill did, too, about, you know, abuse is horrific. It's off. You know, you can make all these statements, but is it just lip service if your actions and your policies that you don't put in place do not support this supposed belief that you have? That's. That's my thought.

Radio Free Mormon [00:53:10] Yeah.

Secret Recordings and Church Efforts to Suppress Allegations

John Dehlin [00:53:12] All right, I'll keep reading. Albert D's recordings provide an unprecedented record of the steps the Church normally takes behind closed doors to keep allegations of child sex abuse secret. Steps that can leave predators free and children at risk. I'm going to bet that Albert E, by the way, listens to at least one of our collective podcasts. So I'm going to make a public request that Alberty consider coming on this podcast or one of our podcasts. We'd love to interview you, Albert E. Eric. Alberty, if you're listening, or if any of you know Eric, Albert D, reach out to him, make that offer. We think that what you did is a. Probably a heroic act of. Act of transparency, and we would love to have you on to share your perspective if you're able to. If you're not part of a lawsuit, see Eric.

Radio Free Mormon [00:54:02] Eric was sitting in the seat that should have been occupied by the lawyer, right?

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:54:06] And you get the feeling, and only because I've been doing this for 34 freaking years, you get the feeling that the lawyer was not allowed. And so in place of the lawyer. And as a concession for the lawyer not being allowed into this meeting. And by that I mean Chelsea's lawyer. Okay, well, she can have an advocate present, a friend who's not a lawyer, who's going to sit there and who ends up apparently out lawyering the lawyer by recording the, the conversations, the meetings, and then not being a party to the NDA.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] I'll just say I can predict something that's going to happen. When I started recording my, my meetings with my stake president and bishop during my disciplinary council interviews in 2014, I, I, you know, and it was shared with the New York Times, those recordings, I, you know, the church knew that I was going to likely be recording my disciplinary council. And so they came into my disciplinary council making me sign a form saying that I would not record my disciplinary council or they wouldn't let me attend my disciplinary council. So from that point forward, Bill, they wanted you to sign the same type of thing, is that right, Bill?

Bill Reel [00:55:23] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Yeah. I'm guessing that from now on, whenever these negotiations happen, they're going to make everyone in the room sign that similar type of agreement so that these recordings never happen again. Do you think that's likely?

Bill Reel [00:55:37] The church knows how to protect its, its secrets.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] I mean, when we cover issues like this or when, when whistleblowers, the church learns and then they adapt their policy to make themselves less and less vulnerable. Yeah, it's just worth mentioning. All right, I'll keep reading. Quote, how many can know the truth and choose to pretend they don't and leave others at risk of the same abuse? And they know it and they just don't care. Lorraine Goodrich said, this is the mother. I don't understand that. I'll never understand that. So there's the mother speaking on behalf of her daughter. All right, now it's going to go into the story. Two years earlier, in the spring of 2015, Chelsea Goodrich, then a 29 year old graduate student in psychology living in Southern California, began to confront disturbing memories.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] And I'm just curious whether those memories are back to when her dad was bishop or not. I don't know that we know that. Do we know that? Whether, okay, we don't know that. While her peers dated and created lasting relationships, Chelsea was filled with anxiety and dread at the prospect. Quote, Instead of wanting to have a relationship, I just remember feeling terror and confusion and kind of disgust, like all at once about it, she said during a series of interviews with the apartment. So Chelsea was apparently feeling traumatized by the abuse she had experienced from her dad, and it was affecting her dating life and her.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] Her life and her mental health. Her memories included several occasions she recalled when John Goodrich slipped into and this is graphic. Please take care of yourself or any loved ones in your room. If you need to practice self care or pause or lower the audio. Her memories included several occasions she recalled when John Goodrich slipped into her bed at night in their house in Mountain Home, Idaho, to spoon her while he was aroused, pushing himself against her backside. On one occasion when she was 9, she remembered her father had apologized to her for being aroused while they were playing in the family swimming pool and told her not to tell her mother.

John Dehlin [00:57:40] That's. That's disturbing. The last similar incident Chelsea recalls occurred during a school field trip to Washington, D.C. this is the last one, so I'm assuming there's some in the middle there where her father admits, and he admits this, climbed into bed with her in a state of arousal and slipped close behind her. John Goodrich admitted that during a recorded conversation obtained by the AP with Chelsea, Lorraine and one of Chelsea's brothers. So this isn't a case of he said, she said. This is the dad admitting. This goes on to say Lorraine and Chelsea had been recording their confrontations with John about the alleged abuse, which they would later turn over to the police.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] While grappling with these memories, Chelsea met a Mormon friend she came to trust and with whom she shared these unsettling remembrances. Her new friend told her that her father. And this is a weird plot twist. Her father, none other than Paul Writing, was a high church official when often dealt with sexual abuse complaints and suggested Chelsea contact him. How weird is that? She makes friends with Writing's daughter. Anybody surprised by that?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:58:53] That is a plot twist, because I feel Paul entered her life as a friend, a very safe connection, a friend's father. And I'm sure that she believed, and I think probably the friend believed, too. Oh, you can get help from my dad. He works for the church. He works for. For. To advocate for abuse victims. I'm sure that's what they thought. And it's just like slipping in the back door right there. Through very friendly channels.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Yeah. Anyone else think that's weird or have any other comments on the story so far? Should we keep reading?

Radio Free Mormon [00:59:24] It's certainly an unusual coincidence.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. All right, let's keep reading. So unbeknownst to Chelsea, who believed writing's main responsibility was to aid victims, at about that time, he was deeply involved in defending the church in a highly publicized West Virginia child sex Abuse lawsuit. Several Mormon families had accused the church of allowing Mormon sex abuser Christopher Michael Jensen to babysit for their children whom he allegedly abused. Jensen was sentenced to serve 35 to 75 years in prison after he was found guilty of abusing two of the children. This West Virginia case has been covered a lot. It was a big, big payout.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] And y' all should go check that out. Vice News covered that, I think, and other media outlets did as well. As revealed by the AP last year, Writing made sworn statements in that case, which were sealed by a judge and obtained by the ap describing the management of the sensitive church helpline. I referred to a hotline as a hotline, I think a phone number set up by the church for bishops to report instances of child sex abuse. Church officials say that they don't keep any records of reports to the helpline. That is, it's covered later in the article. But anyone find that disturbing that the. The helpline destroys notes at the end of each day? That was uncovered last year in Resendes's article as well?

Radio Free Mormon [01:00:52] Well, yeah, from my point of view, what they're doing is they're proactively getting rid of any evidence that might be unhelpful for the church in any future lawsuits.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] Yeah, absolutely. Why else would they delete? Allegedly delete. They use that term later. Maybe they. They say they delete it or destroy it, but maybe they don't.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:01:12] All right, but can I say one thing?

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Yeah, Rebecca, please.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:01:15] Interesting that they think that the evidence or the whatever is in those records from the helpline hotline is going to hurt them. Right. You would think people might also want to save it if they think, okay, this will validate what we're doing. This will, you know, make people understand. Instead, they just delete it. Why do they think it's only going to hurt them? That's interest testing.

Guest [01:01:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] And I'll just say, why would Jesus's church delete the records of abuse victims calling their helpline? Like, how in the world is that behavior becoming of Jesus's church?

Radio Free Mormon [01:01:49] Well, maybe it isn't. Maybe that's not the truth at all, John. Maybe they do keep the records and they were just lying about it because that's what Jesus would do.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] But that's also a problem, Right. All right, let's see. Writing also reveals, revealed, the lengths to which the church goes to ensure confidentiality for perpetrators who make spiritual confessions. This is writing, quoting previous coverage. Quote, disciplinary proceedings are subject to the highest confidentiality possible. Writing said in one affidavit, if Members have had any concerns that the disciplinary files could be read by a secular judge or. Or attorneys or be present to a jury as evidence in a public trial, Their willingness to confess and repent and for their souls to be saved would be seriously compromised. So there's that argument that we fight for confidentiality for the sake of the members and their ability to repent.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:02:48] Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] Okay, go ahead, Bill, then. Yeah.

Bill Reel [01:02:51] If you destroy the records of this reporting, from victims to bishops to Church legal representation, it seems that the destruction of that evidence by far favors the Church in the abuser way more than it favors the victim. And so if you say you do it to protect the victim, it seems like holding on to the evidence in far more cases than. Than not would actually be evidence that could be used to help the victim later on. And so I do find it strange that it. The Church is saying one thing, but logically it seems to be something else.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] Rebecca, were you gonna add something?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:03:40] Yeah, of course. I have my stuff printed out, hard copy here. I have three stars by that statement right there. Because I kind of touched on this before how I kind of feel that they're saying, oh, don't be conf. Concerned about any, you know, process of man or a quarter or anything like that. You know, don't let that stop you. We need to save your soul. And that's the key. The Church is trying to operate above anything to do with a court. Anything of man. Right. It's all about the eternal soul and repentance. It doesn't matter what happens to victims. It doesn't matter what happens in the real world.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:04:12] It's all this otherworldly view, and the importance is placed on the. The perpetrator, that he needs to repent and his soul needs to be saved. The victim. They can work that out. They can figure that out, but it's important to support the perpetrator. That's how I kind of take it.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] Thanks, Rebecca.

Guest [01:04:30] All right.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] It goes on to say writing did not respond to telephone calls or an email with a list of questions. In its statement, the Church noted that Goodrich's, quote, communications with his bishop were protected by Idaho state law. Only the perpetrator could release the bishop from his obligation under the clergy penitent privilege, and he refused to do so. Rfm, you're nodding your head. Are you saying that's. That sounds right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:04:56] Yeah. Of course he would, by the way, to make this very clear, and you'll come to a sentence in the article shortly that shows how the Church uses the privileges to its advantage. The first one is the priest penitent. That's what it was when I went to law school back in the 80s. Now it's been expanded to the clergy penitent because we want to be inclusive beyond just the Catholic Church. The clergy penitent privilege. Right, we've talked about that. And so whatever the. Let's just say John Goodrich tells his bishop in a confessional setting is privileged. Right? That's the clergy penitent privilege. But when the bishop calls now to the hotline and talks to a lawyer, now that's covered by the attorney client privilege because the attorney is the lawyer that the bishop is talking to, and the bishop now becomes the client.

Radio Free Mormon [01:05:51] So that also is sealed off and privileged from being talked about in a court of law. The weak spot in this process is they can't just have lawyers answering the freaking phones every time a bishop calls on the hotline. So they have non lawyers manning the phones or womaning the phones or whatever you want to call it. Right. Answering the calls, and then they take some notes, and if it matches their criteria, then they pass them on to the lawyer. There is no privilege for the person who answers the phone under the law.

Radio Free Mormon [01:06:27] So it seems that it's possible that what the church is doing is trying to minimize that risk by having the non lawyers and the non penitents. The non privileged people get rid of their notes at the end of every day. So they're not going to have any independent recollection or anything to refresh their recollection later on if they should be contacted to talk about what it was that they heard from the bishop.

Abuse Confession, Accountability, and Church Response

John Dehlin [01:06:57] Thanks for that rfm. All right, let's keep going. After meeting Writing's daughter Chelsea, the victim traveled with her to Salt Lake City and met with Paul Writing while staying at the family home. Who gets that treatment? Who gets to travel with the daughter of a Curt McConkey Church lawyer to go meet with him in Salt Lake City and meet in the guy's home? Like, that's. I mean, you could argue that's really kind personal service on the part of writing. Right. I mean, we don't have to ascribe sinister motives to that. We can say he's reaching out to the one I don't know. But it's just bizarre levels of individual and personal care and concern.

Radio Free Mormon [01:07:37] It is. Of course, she doesn't say anything to him during that visit about what happened to her.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] Okay. All right. At that time, Chelsea didn't feel ready to discuss her memories like rfm. Just said and kept them to herself, she said. But she eventually told her mother. And when Lorraine Goodwich confronted her husband in their Idaho home In July of 2015, John confirmed becoming aroused while around his daughter, but denied any direct sexual contact, according to recordings of the conversations. So that's your point, rfm that there was no direct sexual contact, according to the dad, John, in one recorded conversation with Chelsea and Lorraine, John blamed the devil for his decision to climb into bed with his 13 year old daughter after hearing sexual activity in an adjoining hotel room during the trip to Washington.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] Quote, the adversary, I'm sure worked on me, he said, using a church term for Satan, quote. And that's when it was going through my mind when I climbed in bed with Chelsea and was really aroused with the intent of spooning and snuggling you. But I didn't. Do y' all want to talk about the functional value in his mind of invoking Satan and the devil in his conversation with his daughter and wife? Do I have to spell it out? Why don't, why don't one of you spell it out? Rebecca, spell it out for us.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:08:55] Oh, it just removes his accountability completely. The devil made him do it. Right. There's a reason that's a common phrase. It removes him and any culpability from his actions.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] And I, you know, I, I'm not challenging you, but I would soften it a little bit. I would say it, it spreads accountability. Maybe he's got a little bit, but you know, Satan, Satan was the prime mover here, you know, but maybe is that fair, Rebecca? Weakens accountability.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:09:21] I think so. No, of course. I mean, and it's hard to look at yourself when you do something and you don't understand. I mean, not to this level we're talking about here. But it is a very nice, comforting thought to think, well, maybe it wasn't me. Maybe there's some outside forces working on me and instead of it originating with me, this act or action, I was just susceptible to something, just something that kind of influenced me. So, yeah, I would agree with you.

Radio Free Mormon [01:09:43] Yeah, it's not just Satan. It's that enthusiastic couple in the adjoining motel room.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:09:48] Exactly.

Radio Free Mormon [01:09:49] Yeah.

Bill Reel [01:09:50] Just to note too, I mean, not just with Satan. I mean, and it's not just Mormonism, it could be Christianity at large. And other religions do this too. But when you have theology that says that God will bring things to your remembrance, God will inspire you to think certain thoughts, or Satan is going to tempt you and place certain thoughts in your mind, they're, you know, you have these women and men who end up doing great harm to their own children who say, God told me to do that. There seems to be in religion this ability to not take seriously that something's unstable about what's going on with the way I think.

Bill Reel [01:10:29] But instead it might be God or it might be Satan who are doing something to me. And it sort of muddies the rational process of people actually going like, whoa, something's not right about me. There are thoughts in my head that are causing me to think about doing harm to somebody. And rather than go to a hospital or see a professional and get help, I deal with that in the religious paradigm of the religious lens. And I go like, oh, like that's just Satan or Heavenly Father. And it sort of keeps a human being from doing the real work of becoming a good human being and dealing with their unhealthiness by seeing a professional fair.

John Dehlin [01:11:09] Bill. And I'm remembering our coverage of the book Visions of Glory and the whole Chad dabble Lori Valo thing. If you know it starts with the New Testament because the New Testament talks about demonic possessions and Jesus casting out demons from people. But, but the Mormon Church has, has taken that doctrine and run with it and then books like Visions of Glory and Others. I remember growing up being taught about demonic possessions in a Mormon context, not just the Exorcist movie which we know our FM loves. But, but this idea of demonic possession is a Mormon doctrine and it's problematic because like you say, Bill, seeing a mental health professional is going to be a much better approach than like trying to pray to make Satan have less of a magical influence over your thoughts and actions. That's a good point.

Radio Free Mormon [01:11:59] The power of RFM compels you, John.

John Dehlin [01:12:03] I'm compelled. All right. With his marriage and family in turmoil, John revealed details of his relationship with Chelsea to visiting relatives. According to written statements from the relatives, which was ultimately submitted to authorities, they urged him to go to the police. When John said he'd rather talk to a bishop, the Goodrich relatives drove him to Miller's home where John made his confession. Less than a year later, on September 1, 2016, Chelsea and her mother met with Mountain Home police and played the recordings of their conversations with John. The next day, after nearly two hour interview at police headquarters, officers arrested him. Quote, nothing happened. John protested as police cuffed him during a video interview obtained by the ap. Quote, I'm not ashamed of anything. What do we make of John getting handcuffed and saying I'm not ashamed of anything? What does that mean? Panelists, anyone?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:13:02] I think he's dialing it back maybe a little bit. Right. It's one thing to talk to your bishop, who's probably really empathetic and says, we'll work this out. You know, you may be excommunicated, but we're going to work it out. Then you're in the control of actual law enforcement and they're putting handcuffs on you. And at that point, the reality sets in. And maybe he's just trying to dial it back a little bit, or maybe he's in denial.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] Yeah. Yep.

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:25] Well, this raises the question that overshadows this entire story, which is what crime did he commit?

John Dehlin [01:13:33] Yeah. And why is the church paying. Paying him off? What, what the Church sees, its culpability or its liability or risk to make the Church want to pay it off.

Radio Free Mormon [01:13:42] And I also want to say, as long as I'm talking right now, I will say that the entire story seems to assume that this confession he made to the bishop was somehow more compromising than the confessions he made to his wife, to his adult daughter, which they recorded to his unnamed relatives, who then say, okay, well, you've got to go talk to the bishop, because anything he said to his wife comes in. Anything he said to his daughter comes in. Anything he said to his relatives comes in. And I'm saying that as far as evidence in a criminal trial, so it's almost like it's being assumed.

Radio Free Mormon [01:14:20] And we don't know what he said to the bishop because the bishop isn't saying what he said to the bishop. That's Miller. That's Bishop Miller. Right. Bishop Miller's not saying what John Goodrich told him. So it's almost assuming that if the bishop could have testified, then the state would have had enough evidence to pursue prosecution against John Goodrich. And I don't know that that's necessarily true. It does seem that we don't know whether that's true.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] Thanks, rfm. We're going to play a couple. Couple comments or questions from our awesome audience. Brett Nordquist writes, so glad you are getting this out there. Yet many members will still point the finger at the Catholic Church for their abusive history. They need to look in the mirror. Thank you, Brett. Thanks for your support. Thanks for that comment. Steve Acosta writes, I'm having a difficult time believing the church attorneys would do this. And then he says, just kidding. So, Steve, weighing in that this isn't new.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:27] Hey, John, we hadn't talked about this before the show. I know this is the first episode, but did we mention that all super chats tonight go to Radio Free Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] No, I didn't know that, but that's okay.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:36] I just want to make sure that

John Dehlin [01:15:37] was clear if that's true.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:39] All right.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] I think they go to wherever people are watching from, actually. That's awesome. AKA the cat lady writes. So happy to see all of you together talking about serious issues. Thank you for your hard work. It's greatly appreciated. Yeah. And. And we're going to be trying to do a weekly show. This is the first day of, hopefully, something that will become a long tradition. We're starting with one, but we hope this to continue. Anthony writes. Love this collaboration. Thank you, Anthony. And again, thanks, Lee, and thanks, Adora, for your comments and. And super chats as well. All right, should we keep reading?

Radio Free Mormon [01:16:20] Yeah. I almost didn't make it on this show. I just want to let everybody know because my girlfriend told me that every time I turn toward John, she feels like I'm turning my back on her.

Guest [01:16:30] That's good.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Hey, Wendy.

Radio Free Mormon [01:16:31] What do you think about that, John?

John Dehlin [01:16:33] I don't know. I don't think you would turn your back on me, rfm. Maybe you would. All right, let's keep going.

Radio Free Mormon [01:16:45] Did you want to show the screen while you're reading it? I just didn't know if that were a choice you were making, John.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] I mean, I. I don't know. Can people read it?

Guest [01:16:52] It.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] I guess the audience can weigh in if they would like to. I'm happy to show it. I was just thinking that maybe it's too small.

Radio Free Mormon [01:16:58] Up to you. I can read it on my screen.

John Dehlin [01:17:01] You can, but then I have a

Radio Free Mormon [01:17:03] jumbotron in front of me.

John Dehlin [01:17:04] Yeah, well, I. I'll have our listeners say if they would rather see our faces or. Or hear it. Do you guys have a preference as panelists?

Radio Free Mormon [01:17:14] I think the less my face is shown, the better.

John Dehlin [01:17:16] Okay. All right, let's keep going. It was then that Chelsea decided to enlist Writing's help and began corresponding with him by email to persuade him to allow Miller to testify against her father. So now we're trying to get Bishop Miller to allow. Right. They're trying to persuade. Okay, help me understand this. Chelsea's trying to get Writing to help persuade the bishop to testify against her dad. Is that right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:17:50] That's what it says, but it sounds misguided, and I covered that earlier. Why? I thought that.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] Yeah, let's keep reading. Chelsea and Lorraine also let Writing know that church officials may have known about John Goodrich and his daughter for years. John told them in conversations that were also Recorded that he'd repented details of his relationship with Chelsea to several local church leaders. Writing told them that church leaders said they did not recall hearing such confessions. So church leaders are denying having heard any such confessions. That seems suspect to me, but go ahead.

Radio Free Mormon [01:18:26] This is a situation where anybody could be lying. Yeah, somebody is. And anybody could be right.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] Yeah, that's good then. Ten days after John's arrest in Mountain Home, another woman stepped forward with additional allegations of sex abuse. After learning of the case against John, the 53 year old single mother accused John of having non consensual sex with her. I think the other word for that might be rape with her. After giving her the drug Halcyon, or Halcyon, a controlled substance John often used to sedate patients during dental procedures, she alleged that Goodrich drugged her the previous July after she cut off a sexual relationship with him. The AP is not naming the woman because it does not identify people who make allegations of sexual abuse with their consent.

Criminal Proceedings and the Bishop's Plea Deal

John Dehlin [01:19:18] As detectives investigated these new allegations, John Goodrich, who is still facing charges in Chelsea's case, called a woman at least four times in conversation she recorded and which the AP obtained. In these conversations, Goodrich asked her to lie to police while admitting he drugged her, even as he tried to minimize his actions and repeatedly apologized. Quote, it was fun as heck, but it wasn't. But it was wrong. Quote he close quote, he said in a recorded conversation, quote, just out of principle, it was wrong and I mad as hell at myself. Close quote says Bishop John Goodrich. Rebecca, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with that?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:19:58] You know how I had two stars on that other statement? I have like 20 stars right there. I'm sorry. It was fun as heck. Okay? This is exactly why these things need to be reported, because here he is out doing the same thing again to someone else and we don't even know. There might even be more that will come forward now that his name is out here. It was fun as heck, but it was wrong. I'm just mad as hell at myself. This, this does not really sound like a repentant person. And again, he's out there. He's dealing with people. He's dealing with. It sounds like patients. He's a dentist. And he has these two things that we know allegedly that he's done. I just think the church needs to look at when they protect the perpetrator. That means the perpetrator has access to other victims. And here's this woman.

John Dehlin [01:20:47] I'm just like crazy enraged that this guy's not in jail for drug raping victims. And we're going to learn why he's not in jail, I guess, in. In just a second.

Radio Free Mormon [01:20:57] Well, if those facts are correct, why weren't their allegations filed against him of witness tampering?

John Dehlin [01:21:03] That's a good question. Yeah. Yeah. If they knew all that I get, maybe we'll find out later.

Radio Free Mormon [01:21:09] Yeah. If you call a witness and tell them to lie, that's a felony. Like I say, in this state and in most states.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] Yeah, that's Good. Good point. RFM. Let's keep reading. In July 2017, prosecutors dropped charges against Goodrich related to Chelsea's allegations. We. Do we know why? Six months later, a prosecutor in a neighboring county was crafting a plea deal in which he again would escape sex crime charges. In the end, John Goodrich pleaded guilty to distribution of a controlled substance, Halcyon, or Halcyon. And a judge sentenced him to 90 days in jail and three years of probation. So he was charged, he did a plea, it was reduced. Not to rape or whatever the, you know, charge would be. It was just something around a controlled substance. What do we think about that plea deal? Rfm? As an attorney, what I think is

Radio Free Mormon [01:22:03] I. I don't have enough information to know whether that's a good plea deal. I mean, sometimes as a lawyer, sometimes you get gifts, right? Sometimes the prosecutor will offer you something you never, ever thought you'd get, and you go deal. But usually that's not the way it is. Usually there's facts behind it and there's weaknesses in the. The sex case that we're not being apprised of. A story. This is a side part of a story that's about something else. So there were probably problems with the case that resulted in this, and if we knew all the facts, it would make more sense than it does just looking at it in this paragraph.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] Thanks, rfm. And thanks to Don Smith, who's telling us that it's halcyon. Thanks, Don, for helping us with the pronunciation. I. I'm sure in some universe I should know that, but I don't. We don't. So there we are.

Radio Free Mormon [01:22:49] Well, in some universe, it's probably Halky on, too.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] The multiverse, it always comes back to Marvel. Right? RFM. It always comes back to Marvel. All right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:00] Six, one, six.

John Dehlin [01:23:01] What is that? What's 616?

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:03] That's our multiverse.

John Dehlin [01:23:04] Oh, okay. Got it. We're a low number. That's a relatively low number. Okay. At the initial meeting with Chelsea and Lorraine, writing said the clergy penitent Privileged law made it next to impossible for Millen Miller to testify against John Goodrich. Now, four months later, he was back in Haley with an offer. Is that a little bit ridiculous? Next, can any of you imagine a scenario where Miller would. Would. Would speak at trial? Can you imagine one thing that would happen that would make Miller speak a trial? Can anyone tell us what that might be?

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:39] Malpractice on the part of Goodrich's lawyer.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] Okay, all right. How about the Mormon Church telling Miller to testify?

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:50] They can't.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] Why?

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:52] It's not their privilege. I know they think they own the world and they're in the process of buying it up, but they don't own that privilege. Okay? That's John Goodrich's effing privilege he gets.

John Dehlin [01:24:04] But if the church can. Has persuasive power, which we started off this episode acknowledging, they could persuade Miller to do the right thing and testify in court, right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:24:16] No, they can't.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] Okay. Why?

Radio Free Mormon [01:24:19] Because I. Okay, make me John Goodrich's lawyer.

John Dehlin [01:24:22] Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [01:24:23] We're invoking the privilege. That's all I have to say. Case closed. The bishop is not testifying.

Bill Reel [01:24:32] Yeah, the. The abuser has the right in a. In a clergy conversation to invoke that the clergy not speak.

Radio Free Mormon [01:24:43] It would be malpractice for good. Rich's lawyer not to invoke the privilege.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Okay, all right, that's fair.

Radio Free Mormon [01:24:51] And once again, notice that this is all predicated on the idea that he confessed something to the bishop, that he. That was more incriminating than what he said to everybody else. That. That would have put the case over the top. But we don't know that that's the case. All we know is that we don't know what was said to the bishop.

John Dehlin [01:25:07] Okay, all right, let's keep reading. Much had changed for Lorraine and Chelsea in the meantime. This is now going back to the writing thing. They'd begun to feel ostracized by the Mormon community, which we've covered in past Mormon Stories episodes. Miller's wife had even removed them from a local church community Sisters email list. They told writing Miller had been an advocate for Chelsea. I'm. I'm thinking back now to the Colby and Cam Reddish episode on Mormon Stories. And I'm sure y' all have had Colby on too, where all they did was try and pressure the church to disclose that there was abuser among their lists, and they get punished by the church membership.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] I'm also thinking of Jared Jones and. And his. His wife as well. It seems like there's a culture in The Mormon Church, where if you try and have the church hold abusers accountable or make members aware that there's abuser in their midst, somehow you get punished and marginalized in your community. Does anybody want to add anything to that?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:26:15] Yeah, I have something to add. I again went onto the church website because I wanted to see what are their policies, what are their procedures when it comes to abuse and helping abuse victims. And I can even read this really quickly, says I'm a victim of abuse. As a child of a loving heavenly Father, we must do everything we can to protect and love them. We urge our local leaders and members to reach out to victims, comfort, strengthen them, help them understand that what happened was wrong and the experience was not their fault. We encourage leaders and members to make efforts to present it, prevent it from happening again.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:26:46] So that does not say to me, take them off the board email list. But again, we see this over and over. Like you just said, it's people just back away, they pull away. When somebody dares to say that especially a leader has made it, has done something like that, it's really sad.

Radio Free Mormon [01:27:00] It is also symptomatic of the peer pressure that is felt by members. In addition to meeting with the rep and starting with prayer and everything else I already mentioned, this is part of the peer pressure to go along with what it is that you are told to do. And if you rock the boat, there are going to be repercussions. And these were apparently some of those repercussions.

John Dehlin [01:27:20] Got it. Okay. Miller had been an advocate for Chelsea. During the first meeting with writing, Miller said John Goodrich, before his excommunication had tried to backtrack on what he told Miller in confession. Quote, John told me one thing and then kind of toned it way down to the stake president, said Miller. Bishop Miller, referring to a higher ranking church official who oversees several local jurisdictions. Quote, he told the stake president, well, that's not a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:27:52] I go, yeah, it's a big deal. Quote, so we know he's lying and we know he's lying at every level. Ridding responded. Any. Any thoughts on, on that, that little series of comments or that part of the story panel? No, keep going. All right.

John Dehlin [01:28:12] Reached by phone by the ap, Miller refused to discuss details. Quote, it's clergy privilege, he said, quote, if I say anything, John Goodrich can sue me for millions of dollars. That's reflecting what RFM just told us. With writing in town again, Lorraine and Chelsea first made it clear that they were devastated the prosecutor had dropped the tribal criminal case. According to the recordings, quote, the prosecutor said, too bad the bishop couldn't testify. Close quote, Lorraine told writing. Writing sounded surprised he had not known coming into the meeting that the case was dropped. Allegedly, he said he told them that the church perhaps could reach out to the prosecutor to help get things restarted.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] Quote, the message to this prosecutor is you've got several pretty clear cut instances where a predator, a sexual predator has admitted, Writing said, and then the victims have provided information, but you don't feel any need to protect the general public.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] Quote, she did say that if the bishop could come forward and tell, then we would have had a case. But there's nothing. Lorraine repeated now really quickly, of course, you know, of course the victim and her mom, Chelsea and Lorraine are going to want to see this guy prosecuted. So it makes sense that they would be just fighting for that.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] What do we say about their intentions here? Or do we just have to just say even though there's nothing that could have been done, it was reasonable for them to fight for the outcome they wanted? How else can we process this part of the story? Anyone?

Radio Free Mormon [01:29:53] What do you think, Bill?

Bill Reel [01:29:57] You're putting me on the spot, huh? So as I hear that part, I'm sort of in my own head wondering why the case was dropped if so many other people took recording devices into these conversations. So many other people are going, nope, he told me this again. You put 10 people on the stand and they all go, yeah, he told me this. And you have multiple recordings that say it, not including the ones with the church. It seems as though you would have enough to go without the church's bishop testifying. And for some reason, everything the story says indicates otherwise. And that seems confusing to me.

John Dehlin [01:30:41] All right. Rebecca, anything you want to add?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:30:44] Yeah, I just thought it was funny, the writing said. And you don't feel any need to protect the general public? Like, he's incensed that this prosecutor, you know, has dropped everything where the church itself had a lot of chances, where it could have protected the general public from this individual.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's keep reading. The message to this prosecutor is you've got pretty clear cut instances. Did I already read this part? No, I did read it.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:31:16] I thought so.

John Dehlin [01:31:17] Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:31:18] I'm sorry. Frankly, I wasn't paying attention.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] John, am I boring you?

Radio Free Mormon [01:31:22] RM I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] We don't have to keep reading. Should we summarize the case or. Or what do you guys think?

Bill Reel [01:31:32] Think I. I'd love.

Radio Free Mormon [01:31:33] We're at an hour and a half. Are there any people still Watching John, I can't see.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Oh, we've got, we've got our largest audience so far. 1700 people. Yeah.

Bill Reel [01:31:41] Rebecca's brought up on several occasions the church's website. And I don't know if you have it handy there. It'd be cool to throw it up. No, I mean for, for John to put it up on the screen.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:31:52] Yeah, sorry, I'm old school.

The Church's Public Statement Versus Its Private Actions

Bill Reel [01:31:53] Okay, first section. You know the church's statement that, you know, when we learn of abuse, our first priority is to help the victim and stop the ab. That's what the church says on their website. In the meantime, they also admit that when you call the hotline, you're dealing with the risk management folks and their risk management playbook. Again, those two ideas are contradictory. We train local leaders and we provide resources. I served as a bishop.

Bill Reel [01:32:23] Anybody who's been in the church for very long knows what they mean by train and have resources. It means once or twice a year you meet with, with church leaders at the stake level who are also lay ministers with no training and you might get a handout or two and have an hour discussion. But there really isn't any training in the Mormon Church even, even now, from what I hear that you have to take this, you know, 40, 40 minute thing on a computer to show that you're a qualified leader to handle adult situations. You know, when in interviews and conversating with people, that's about the lowest standard and the church claims to be the gold standard.

Bill Reel [01:33:00] There are so many instances where they talk about, well, we may not be able to do anything in terms of law enforcement, but we take care of church discipline. We make sure that they pay a price. Well, those aren't equal. And unless you're a believer, that has no meaning at all to anyone.

Bill Reel [01:33:18] When I read the church's website, we don't have time to go through all of it. When I read the church's website site about abuse, about every third sentence I could find a, a absolute contradiction between what they're saying on the site and how they actually operate.

Guest [01:33:37] Thanks.

Radio Free Mormon [01:33:37] Yeah, I think that there's only one thing that every bishop needs to know when it comes to encountering these kind of situations as part of being a bishop, and that is call 1-800- hotline to Salt Lake City. That's all you need to know know. And I think that's probably what they make sure every bishop knows.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:33:54] Yeah, I was going to mention one section of that really quickly where they talk about who are our leaders and they, of course they say you Know abuse. Protecting individuals from abuse is a top priority. And then they make sure that they know that your leaders are going to be trusted. People in your community, people that you're already friends with, people that you already know, people that live in your community. They're trusted. They're local leaders, they're your friends, your parents.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:34:19] Well, statistics show that these are the people going to be committing the abuse. So that is not comforting at all. To put this in big bullet points about who are the people that are going to be dealing with your children and your youth. And then they have a section that says safeguards in place to protect. And there are things like, oh, two adults at a time or this and that. But nowhere is there any kind of background check. Of course, that's a big hot button issue. But it's very interesting to read through this. I would encourage anybody to just go on the church's website and, and, you know, let us know what you think.

Radio Free Mormon [01:34:47] And Rebecca, if we're not going to go through the rest of the article, it's long article and I don't know if we're only halfway through it, you know, 90 minutes into the podcast, but I know that when we were talking earlier today about this, Rebecca, there was something about this that was very important to you, and I think it's important to everybody, which is the potential contradiction in testimony from lawyer writing about whether the church hotline people at Curtin McConkey actually do keep records or whether they don't. Did you want to talk about that?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:35:20] Yeah, I. I actually think we should all talk about it. I kind of feel like that is a huge takeaway because we were told over and over again in Arizona there are no records. They are shredded every night. Which everyone said, why? What? You know, we touched on that at the beginning and now here we're hearing again from writing that, oh, no, I can check the records. I can find out if this or that were said. So are there records? That's huge. You know, that informs things that have happened in the past and things that may happen in the future. So it's like. So you're saying there's some records. You know, it's really interesting. And they kind of just slid that into the article. So I don't know what anyone else thinks about that.

Radio Free Mormon [01:35:56] I have that part highlighted and read in the article further down if you want me to go to that, John, or if you have it. That's.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say the article's not that much longer and people are asking us to read it. I am going to skip, though, we could just read a few more things. Things. So they go on to talk about, you know, the payment that has started at 90 grand and, and that he has authorization up to 100, 300,000. We already talked about that.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] Let's just talk about this next part. The payment would be made on the condition that Chelsea and her mother sign an agreement in which they promise never to use Chelsea's story as a basis for a lawsuit against the church and that they never acknowledge the existence of the settlement. Let's talk about that for a second.

John Dehlin [01:36:39] If, if, you know, if we're, if we're believing that the Mormon Church, because it's led by Jesus Christ, should be held to the highest of possible standards, should the church care, number one, that they, I mean, I guess it's reasonable to say we'll give you money if you release all claims. That's why you would do a settlement. Right? That's the reason why you have a settlement. Settlement rfm. You're agreeing with that, right?

Radio Free Mormon [01:37:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:04] Why else would you give money, you're not going to give money and then say, sue me. You'd basically be paying for their lawyers. Right. So that's, that's reasonable. Do we all agree that that's reasonable?

Radio Free Mormon [01:37:13] I hope so.

John Dehlin [01:37:14] And then the second part is that they never acknowledge the existence of the settlement. Now, that's how settlements often work in the legal world. Is it fair to say that somehow that the church, the Jesus's church. Church should be held to a higher standard and not try and hide that it's paying people off to be silent or to not sue them. Any, any feedback is that unreasonable?

Bill Reel [01:37:41] It certainly makes it more difficult for the victim, who isn't aware of how all this plays out in other occasions, to know that the first offer being brought, brought to them is the original lowball offer.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] Oh, it limits the, the availability of the information so that people hold out for more money. It's like, oh, those, those folks in, you know, in that case got 300k, I'm not going to take the 80. Rebecca, were you going to add something?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:38:10] Yeah, I think I said earlier. Well, they know now from this article. They do know now. I mean, I, when I was, I had a friend who had a family member that suffered some abuse while on a mission. And that family member of my friend was offered free tuition to any of the church schools that that person would like to attend. So back then, I think you're right. You're kind of isolated. You don't Know what might be possible. But that was the offer to them.

John Dehlin [01:38:34] Yeah, that's why Trend. That's where sunlight is the best disinfectant. Just transparency gets the information out there. That's why I think these people are heroic. All right, let's keep going. We're almost done. And there was another key provision, second paragraph. I'll be interested in your response. Writing said while reviewing the document with them. That's funny. Quote, the recommendation is that you acknowledge that there's been some recordings made of all our communications and that you agreed to destroy Those recordings within 10 days of signing this. He said, what's the problem with. With. With writing asking them to destroy the recordings? Or is that totally fine? Rfm as the attorney, is that destroying evidence? What do you think?

Radio Free Mormon [01:39:27] Well, when you're doing a negotiation, you can negotiate for anything as long as the parties come to an agreement. That's the whole point. Right. So obviously they want those recordings, which lawyer Writing knows exist and apparently had consented to their being recorded. Right. Unfortunately, he's got three people there in the room that we know of. He's got the two people, Lorraine and Chelsea Goodrich, and he's got the advocate, who's not a lawyer, apparently, for Chelsea, Eric Alberti. And Eric Alberti had also recorded it. He's not going to be party to this agreement to destroy the recordings and therefore he kept them and ultimately gave them to the ap. And those are the recordings that we're listening to, the ones made by Eric Alberti.

John Dehlin [01:40:15] Yeah. I'm just glad we have copies of them. Goes on to say it talks about NDAs. We're going to talk about that in the second article, so I'm going to skip it. Here is the part I think, rfm, you wanted me to read. In one of their recorded conversations, Writing told Chelsea that he could check helpline records used by Miller to report details of John Goodrich's confession to see whether her father had previously confessed to another bishop to abusing her. If those records get deleted at the end of every day, how could he check?

Radio Free Mormon [01:40:45] Right. And we'll compare it to the. The testimony that he gave, not just another attorney who works at Curtin McConkey, but that he himself, Writing, gave in the West Virginia case where he said they destroy them.

John Dehlin [01:40:56] Yeah, yeah.

Bill Reel [01:40:58] He's contradicting himself.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] Yeah. Goes on still. At their final meeting, Writing assured Chelsea Lorraine that church officials denied hearing John Goodrich. Church confessed previously to abusing his daughter. Acclaimed the church backed in its statement to the ap. He urged them to Accept the funds. That's interesting. He urged them to accept the funds the church was offering and signed the NDA, promising they would never sue the church. That feels like undue influence, in my opinion.

Bill Reel [01:41:28] It's bigger than that, John. So we already said in the beginning of this conversation that writing Writing's daughter implies to her friend that my dad helps victims. If your dad, and you're working for Curtin McConkey or whatever legal group he works for, that's protecting the church on the other end of the hotline, he is prioritizing the protection of the church. But when he goes home every day, you can bet your bottom dollar that he is telling his family, including his daughter, what I do is this really cool thing with the church. I protect victims. And, like, that's the story we all tell about ourselves. When we don't like the story, that's reality.

Bill Reel [01:42:06] And so his daughter tells her that my dad protects victims. So when she's meeting with Writing, every time her. The lens she sees all of these conversations through is that he's a victim protector. And to take that perception that is not true and then urge people to make decisions based on a false perception that you have at least contributed to perpetuating, you are not only doing something that is unhealthy in terms of urging someone to do something, you're doing it under a false pretense, which makes it exponentially worse.

John Dehlin [01:42:48] Thank you, Bill. Well said. Rebecca, you want to add anything?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:42:52] No, I think he's absolutely right. Like I said before, it's kind of a wolf in sheep's clothing. And I try to picture what Writing thought when his daughter said, hey, dad, there's this friend of mine, and she suffered abuse at the hands of a bishop in the church, and. And she needs some help and advocacy. What do you think he thought? I mean, I kind of picture. Well, no, I won't even say that, but it must be. It's such a strange coincidence, as RFM said, and. And I'm sure he did think, oh, I better find out what's going on, but not because of Chelsea, but because I better find out what's going on as far as the church's liability.

John Dehlin [01:43:24] Got it. As this article is closing it, it clarifies when John Goodrich engaged in abuse or any other criminal or sexual misconduct, he was acting in an individual capacity and not as an agent of the church. Writing wrote, ignoring the fact that Goodrich was bishop at the time. Okay, well, there we've got a contradiction. The Church, apparently, or writing, is claiming that he wasn't bishop when he did the abuse. But this article is claiming that he was bishop when he did the abuse. It goes on to say, quote, accordingly, any damages arising from such misconduct conduct will be apportioned to Mr. Goodrich and not to the Church. Is that important or not important?

Radio Free Mormon [01:44:03] I don't think it's important because it's, it's all true. I mean, if he were a bishop at the time, what, what writing is saying is he wasn't acting in his capacity as a bishop. Oh, he's not saying he wasn't a bishop. He's saying this. He wasn't, you know, interviewing this person and then doing something wrong in the bishop's office. I'll tell you the thing that I think is significant about it and which may be obvious to people, but that writing in his position as the attorney for Curtin McConkey is representing not only the Church, but he's also representing John Goodrich.

John Dehlin [01:44:37] Yeah, yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:44:39] So John Goodrich was an agent of the Church. Okay. Regardless of how they frame the. The final paperwork and the release. Okay. He's acting as an agent of the Church. And because of that, the Church is representing, or excuse me, me, Curtin mcconi represents not only the Church, but also their agent, which is the bishop.

Radio Free Mormon [01:44:58] And only because they represent John Goodrich. If you can put that language up there again, okay, you'll see where it says about how he's going to apportion it. You can't apportion damages this much to the church, which is zero to the church. Right. In other words, $300,000. But none of that's coming from the Church. It's all coming. It's being apportioned to Mr. Goodrich, but the Church is going to pay it. They're going to write the check because they also represent Mr. Goodrich in this matter. And that is why they'll also say later on that she had also filed suit against her dad, Mr. Goodrich, and that that was resolved as well because it was all done in the same negotiation procedure.

John Dehlin [01:45:41] We've got a comment from Debbie. Debbie is saying Amen. Amen. Amen. Thanks for the comment. Comment. Thanks for the support, Debbie. Just to close out this article, then we'll go on to a couple more really quickly. It says earlier this year, Chelsea decided.

Signing the Agreement and Silencing Survivors

John Dehlin [01:45:55] No, sorry. Chelsea and Lorraine, distanced from their family, community and struggling financially, accepted this assessment and signed the agreement, which did not prevent Chelsea from telling her story. That's important because it refutes the allegation that the Church was Trying to silence them. Them. And they. They talk about that in their statement. And then it says, earlier this year, Chelsea decided to share it with the ap.

John Dehlin [01:46:19] She had tried going to the church for help. She tried the criminal justice system, but John was free with access to children through his family and dental practice. Her dad was still at large, and she says, quote, right now, my main concern continues to be other children, she said. So Chelsea got the money and spoke out because she's concerned that her dad's still running around free, potentially harming children. All right, we finished the first article. The other ones are shorter. Any. Any final comments before we just quickly jump to the other articles, Everyone?

Guest [01:46:51] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [01:46:51] How does this guy still have his license to practice dentistry in the state of Idaho? Yeah, that's my question.

John Dehlin [01:46:58] It's a great question.

Radio Free Mormon [01:47:00] The Mormon Church excommunicates him, but the Idaho medical dental profession will not.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] Maybe people will file complaints as a result of this article, like Jody Hildebrandt, and he will lose his license now that this story's come out. Maybe.

Radio Free Mormon [01:47:15] Well, I expect at a minimum, his practice will take a downturn.

Bill Reel [01:47:19] You can imagine if he was using, you know, the gas to put somebody out to perform dental procedures and.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] That's right. Yeah.

Bill Reel [01:47:28] And one person replies like, that happened to me. You almost have to assume. Again, allegedly. But you almost have to assume that this has happened on more than one occasion. People who are abusers use the same tactics over and over again. That work. There's going to be people out there, I have to imagine, who go, like, you know what? I lost a block of time, obviously had a dental procedure, and something just wasn't right about how I felt about myself or how I felt about the situation when I came to. But it's such a, you know, for abusers, you know, you got. Cosby is kind of the prime example, but people who use sort of narcotics to knock out folks for a time period so that they can carry out their abuse. It's something that those sort of people do over and over again.

John Dehlin [01:48:15] It's disturbing. Absolutely. Well, we're going to jump to the second article. Before we do, we also just want to thank Linda for. For her support and also Mary Maureen. Thanks, y'. All. You know, one of the reasons we're doing this episode is because I. I believe that that really good podcasts like Mormon Ish and Radio Free Mormon and Mormonism Live deserve your financial support. So thanks for whatever super chats you're throwing your way. But also, please take a moment and donate to Mormonism Live. Or, you know, Mormon discussions. Bill, what is the way to support what you do? Bill?

Bill Reel [01:48:55] So the easiest thing you can do is go to mormondiscussions.org, click the Donate button, it'll have a drop down window. You pick your favorite podcast. So if it's radio free Mormon, donate five or ten bucks a month to him. If it's Mormonism, live him and I'll split it. But it goes to helping us put in a, you know, RFM is no longer practicing law full time time. He's now able to do the research and the work that turns out to be really great episodes. And we can kind of help keep that content going by, by supporting the cause that essentially tries to shed a light on the unhealthiness of the church.

Radio Free Mormon [01:49:33] Yeah, pretty much. My practice is exclusively now. Responding to bar complaints

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:49:40] about yourself.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] XMO Silver is throwing out a shout out for the Almost awakened podcast, which is, which is also under Bill's umbrella. Really Clicky. Rebecca, is there a way to donate to Mormonish? Are you not accepting donations right now?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:49:55] No, we are accepting donations. We don't have all the bells and whistles yet of Mormon discussions, however, in the new year we're hoping to become a 513C but we do have a Facebook page, Mormonish podcasting. We have links to Venmo and PayPal there. And you can also go to any of our videos on YouTube and in the show notes we include direct links to venmo or to PayPal so that you can make a donation to Mormonish if you feel like it.

Radio Free Mormon [01:50:18] And John is obviously being very humble tonight, so it's left to me to advocate for him. So if any of you people, if you've ever heard of this, this podcast, this upcoming podcast called Mormon Stories and want to donate, here's what you do. Go to radiofreemormon.org and click the donate button today. That's how John gets his donation. And you were wondering why your donations were going down.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] John, thanks. All right, so again thanks to I am just one mom as well. We're getting some support coming in and we're not done yet, so please don't go away. We're gonna now read this. Read quickly from the second article that came out same day take away from the AP's investigation into the Mormon Church's handling of sex abuse cases. I'm gonna skip right to the end because they offer three, three, three important takeaways that I'm going to read.

Key Takeaways and the Case for Mandatory Reporting

John Dehlin [01:51:09] Each one I. Let me share this tab. So here's the first One, this is, this is some analysis of some things that might need to be looked at or scrutinized. The first is the clergy penitent privilege, which we've already talked about. An earlier investigation by the AP revealed that more than half the states in the United States maintain the clergy penitent privilege, which provides a loophole for clergy who are otherwise required to report child sex abuse to police or local welfare officials. As a result, some child predators who reveal their crimes to clergy in a confessional setting and do not turn themselves into police are allowed to remain free, able to continue abusing children while presenting a danger to others.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] Although child welfare advocates have attempted to change or eliminate the privilege, the AP found that lobbying by religious institutions, including the Catholic Church, the Mormon Church, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, have persuaded state legislatures throughout the country to maintain the loophole. Indeed, the AP cataloged more than 100 attempts to amend or eliminate the privilege, all of which failed. So basically, their calling on the elimination of the clergy penitent privilege, and they're calling out the Mormon Church along with the Catholic and Jehovah's Witnesses and others for defeating efforts to eliminate the clergy penitent privilege. Thoughts from our panel. Let's start with Bill.

Bill Reel [01:52:40] If, if you're a believing Mormon, you're a Latter Day Saint, you're active in your ward, you're, you're, you're faithful, you believe in the things thing. If your church is being lumped with the Jehovah's Witnesses who have rampant abuse, if your church is being lumped with the Catholics who have rampant abuse, you might want to take a look in the mirror and recognize that maybe your religion is similar in ways that you wouldn't be comfortable with and that abuse is running rampant in your faith too.

John Dehlin [01:53:16] Amen, Bill. Rebecca, anything you want to add?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:53:20] Yeah, I just, I can't quite understand why they would not be more supportive of, you know, being first reporters, all that kind of. I mean, the church is about pr. We know that looking good, that's a huge part of what they're about. Can you imagine how good they would look if there was a way that they could report abusers, that they could save and protect victims? It seems to me that that would be the best PR of all. But instead they seem to be, again, on the wrong side of the page and actively lobbying against these things that you could put in place to protect the most vulnerable. I really just don't understand the mindset behind it.

John Dehlin [01:53:58] And I'm going to share JC's comment now JC writes mandatory reporting would protect churches as the chance of more abuse victims and payouts would be lower. Let's get laws changed and protect public too. And that's interesting. Interesting. JC is saying that that mandatory reporting would actually protect the church. So why, if it would protect the church, why would the church fight at rfm?

Radio Free Mormon [01:54:24] Oh, well, I, I don't know the answer to that. I do have to say that I have a somewhat of an objection to calling a privilege that has been centuries in place and we got from the English common law as a loophole. I think it's a privilege that is there in the law law and for good reason. Now this gets into a meta discussion which I'm not going to go into, you'll be glad to know. But it's interesting that we're having this discussion. As society, at least in this country and western societies become more and more secularized, we are getting further and further from the foundations that made the clergy penitent privilege make sense to prior decades of individuals.

Radio Free Mormon [01:55:07] This is a huge shift I think in public thinking. So when writing is quoted as saying, you know, this is about getting people to confess so that we can save their souls. That sounds like a quaint notion to a lot of people nowadays, whereas in prior generations it did not. And it made a lot more sense for them than it does for I think the majority of people today.

Radio Free Mormon [01:55:35] So that's all I'm going to say is that we are. This is a reflection of a huge shift that we all know about the nuns, the rise of the nuns you've talked about before, John, and the increasing secularization of western society where privileges in the law based upon an almost universally recognized importance to religious institutions and the value of the eternal soul are going by the wayside.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] I am just one mom writes Bingo. Rfm. So you've got I am just one mom's validation rfm. I'm assuming this is Maven. I don't know. But here's a comment that's worth mentioning. Is that you, Bill?

Bill Reel [01:56:15] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:16] Bill, why don't you read your comment?

Bill Reel [01:56:19] Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics are named specifically of spending money lobbying to protect penitent privilege which protects the church and the abusers over protecting victims. Think about that.

John Dehlin [01:56:32] Yeah, that's a great point. The Mormon Church is using its tithing dollars, its wealth to lobby to protect. Well, I guess the church would argue that it's. That it's protecting the members feeling of safety to, to repent and forsake their sins.

Radio Free Mormon [01:56:51] Yeah. And we wouldn't be having this discussion if we were just talking about shoplifting at Safeway.

John Dehlin [01:56:56] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:56:56] It is this issue of child abuse, which is not a one off. And whatever the Bishop's training says, I don't know, it's not a one off. It's a deep seated predilection of a number of people, most of the males, to have sexual attraction toward young people. People. Okay? And that doesn't go away any more than alcoholism goes away. It is always there. That predilection is always with a person. And it's not something that can just be repented of like, okay, I stole a candy bar at Safeway. I'm sorry, I won't do it again. All right. It's something that's much deeper than that. And the abuse that is perpetrated as part of it is so much more severe and long lasting and devastating than stealing a candy bar from a Safeway.

Radio Free Mormon [01:57:50] It's this perfect storm of circumstances that's making all of this so public, so controversial and an issue that we decided to devote the inaugural episode of the Mormon Times to.

Bill Reel [01:58:05] All right, how does it, how does it save the penitent when the penitent are not allowed readmission to the church and they keep continuing to abuse? In other words, if the church wants to claim it works, they've actually self admitted it doesn't. They're not letting him back in. He's not back in the good graces of God ever. They pretty much made it clear he's not coming back. And these abusers in all these cases we keep hearing about, after they've repented to their bishop, they continue to commit abuse. So if the LDS church really is prioritizing victims and the ability of the penitent to repent and come back into the fold, they've self admitted that's not what's happening.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] Historically, the churches has re baptized abusers. In fact, historically the church has refused to excommunicate abusers. So this is a relatively new phenomenon in my opinion.

Radio Free Mormon [01:58:59] Right. And so I don't know if what we're seeing is just a normal course of things that the church would do anyway way, or if it is a way to get this individual, Bishop John Goodrich, out of the church so that he's no longer a liability to the church should he offend in the future. And that's part of the thing that's very disturbing to people, which is that the church is saying, okay, we're going to get rid of him out of the church so that we're not liable for anything he does in the future while at the same time knowing that he's probably going to do something in the future. And there may be may indeed be future victims and probably will be future victims. But as long as we're not liable for it, then everything's hunky dory.

Guest [01:59:40] Got it.

John Dehlin [01:59:41] Quick, quick. Thanks for the support. Thad Jesperson all right, let's go ahead and read the next part. The next issue. The next issue that the AP article highlights is NDAs or non disclosure Agreements. They write non disclosure agreements, also known as confidentiality agreements. Documents have been used frequently by the Mormon Church and other organizations, including the Catholic Church, as well as individuals to keep sex abuse allegations secret.

Comparing the LDS Church to Catholic Church Reforms

John Dehlin [02:00:07] 21 years ago the Catholic Church. This is interesting. 21 years ago the Catholic Church approved a charter for the Protection of Children and Young People in which it pledged to eliminate the use of confidentiality agreements to settle child sex abuse claims, except in cases where the victim requested in on images a recognition of the role NDAs play in the COVID up of child sexual abuse. The Mormon Church does not have a similar policy. So that's a case of the Catholic Church kind of one upping it appears their ethics of saying we don't deserve to cover up child sex abuse. Members have a right to know.

John Dehlin [02:00:45] It's it's a matter of member safety. We commit to stop handing out NDAs. It looks like the Mormon Church isn't quite doing that. Is that right? Any comments on that everybody?

Bill Reel [02:00:56] The Catholic Church has had a couple extra thousand years to come to their senses.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:01:02] Well, and I think you see, I, I've correct me if I'm wrong, but the West Virginia case was like that where this perpetrator that people knew of was kept getting back into the wards, back in contact with youth. You know, NDAs. That's exactly what that does. It protects somebody and it doesn't make people aware of a danger in their myths. And people are very trusting in the church as we know. Like what I read before from the website, these are your friends, your teachers, everything's fine. Well, it is fine as long as there's an NDA and you can't find out that it's not fine.

John Dehlin [02:01:33] Yeah, good point. Thanks, Rebecca. The final thing the article highlights is the help line. The earlier AP investigation found that the helpline plays a central role in the COVID up of child sex abuse in the Mormon Church. This is referring to the 1-800-number that Mormon bishops are given so that whenever a member comes and either confesses to Abuse or learns about abuse. They call the Helpline that the church's law firm Kurt McConkey Fields and initiated in 1995 when financial claims for sex abuse against religious institutions were on the rise ties the Mormon Church. Curtin McConkey Helpline. Fields calls for bishops about child sexual abuse and directs the most serious cases to attorneys with the firm of Kurt McConkey, which represents the church.

John Dehlin [02:02:22] According to the church, all information about child sexual abuse passed from the church members to their bishops is confidential under the clergy penitent privilege, and all information passed from the Helpline to church attorneys is confidential under the attorney client privilege.

John Dehlin [02:02:37] Meanwhile, Writing and other church officials have said in sworn testimony that the Helpline either keeps no records or destroys all records at the end of each day. Or does it? We've already talked about this. During his conversations with Chelsea and Lorraine, Writing said he could find out whether John Goodrich had previously repented for his relationship with Chelsea by checking Helpline records, seeming to contradict his sworn testimony in another child sex abuse case case against the church, which suggests Is the Mormon Church lying about its alleged why is it destroying these records? And if it is not destroying them, why is it lying about it? Any comments? Have we already covered that enough or do we want to make any comments about that?

Bill Reel [02:03:21] I'll just say for 200 years the church has numerous examples of it being deceptive and lying and obfuscating the truth. And so I've come to recognize that if church leaders or their representatives are moving their lips, they're almost certainly lying. Because there's not only hundreds, there's probably a thousand occasions at this point where we could pick out where LDS leaders or the representatives have misrepresented the truth.

John Dehlin [02:03:46] Ouch. Bill Real says if the church's representatives mouths are moving, they're lying. Rebecca, is that too harsh?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:03:53] I don't know. He said it. I just wonder if these records were kind of cut out and then Scotch tape somewhere. You know what I'm referring to. Scotch. So no, I think anything's possible and it will be really interesting to see if records surface if they're there, because that is a bold face lie and those records are important.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] Yeah, absolutely.

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:11] Yes, it is. And I think that I would have trouble coming up with any organization on the face of the earth that is less likely to destroy records than the LDS Church. Even the Scotch tape one, which I did get the reference to, Rebecca, were not destroyed. Right. They were cut out and shifted to a more secure location, but not destroyed. The Church has a real problem Destroying records. And I think it's built into it. By the way, John, if you have any trouble remembering the Hot Light number, it's easy to remember. It's 1-800-cover up. That's 1-800-C-O v e r u p. Got it.

John Dehlin [02:04:47] Lead with Love asks an RFM. You're our legal expert here. Is it even legal to cover up a crime with an NDA?

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:55] Well, this isn't a crime. This is a civil resolution in negotiation of a civil case. So it's not the COVID up of a crime.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] Okay, what about the question, though? Is it. Is it legal to cover up a crime with an NDA or not?

Radio Free Mormon [02:05:10] In what circumstance? You mean like if I committed a crime and I came to you and paid you money and had you sign an NDA so that you don't go to the cops about the crime I committed against. Against you?

John Dehlin [02:05:22] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:05:22] Yeah, that'd be against the law.

John Dehlin [02:05:24] Okay. Maven's encouraging us to. To give a shout out to Floodlit, and I think that's a legitimate request. Floodlet.org is. Is an amazing website that is doing its best to chronicle instances of abuse by Mormon church leaders and officials and others. Check out floodlit.org they're doing great work, and I'm happy to give them a shout out. So thanks for that, Maven.

Final Panel Reflections and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:05:57] All right, let's go ahead. And just quickly, we want to end. We're a little bit over two hours. Let's wrap it up. Does anybody have anything to say about the church's response to the COVID up? If I had to summarize it, they basically say abuse is awful.

John Dehlin [02:06:13] This, I think they said this guy wasn't a bishop when he did it. I think they said there's no silencing of the victims because. Because clearly Chelsea was allowed to speak. Anyone want to make comments about their reaction to the church's reaction before we close?

John Dehlin [02:06:34] Did y' all read it? Did y' all get a chance to read it? Was there anything interesting? Rfm? Are you saying there was nothing interesting there?

Radio Free Mormon [02:06:40] Not to me.

John Dehlin [02:06:40] Okay, meaning it was just predictable or just. Just uninteresting?

Radio Free Mormon [02:06:45] Well, I think it's uninteresting. Once again, this case is not phenomenal like the Bisbee, Arizona case because of the atrociousness of the abuse and the absolute indefensible nature of what the church lawyer did in that case. That's been covered before. I covered it on a podcast. You've covered it on a podcast? Everybody's covered it on a podcast.

Radio Free Mormon [02:07:07] This is not that case. Right. This is very different. I think this is important because of the insights we get into how the Church operates behind the scenes with the recordings and also this potential of a contradiction from attorney writing saying, in one case, no, we destroy all the records that come into the hotline. And now telling these people in the recording, I'll go back and check and see, see if I can find the records of prior bishops calling in with confessions from John. I keep trying not to say John Goodman, John Goodrich. John Goodrich, right. So there'd have to be records to consult to in order to locate those phone calls.

Radio Free Mormon [02:07:53] So what is it and what's going on and why are you lying about this, John? I mean, you're lying one place or the other, it would appear. So what's the truth? And I think the truth is they've got records they can consult, and I think the lie is they destroy them all.

John Dehlin [02:08:12] Now, rfm, I don't want to misrepresent you, but it seems like you're saying this doesn't seem to be as big of a case. Rebecca, do you, do you share RFM's kind of perspective on how he characterizes the severity of this case? Do you see reasons why Resendez and the Apostle would. Would make a big deal about this case? Or do you think there's this is a relative nothing, Burger Well, I mean,

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:08:35] RFM and I did discuss this early today that as he said, in comparison to some of the other cases that have come to light recently, this does seem to be of a different type. But as he said, what we have learned from this, it's that risk management playbook that we haven't really been privy to before. And I think as far as this article in the Deseret News with the Church's response, it very much just is a textbook, you know, straight down the line. Abuse is terrible, and this is what we've done. But it really struck me that what the. The concern seems to be for the repentance of the person, the perpetrator, saving the soul, as you said before.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:09:11] And if I could just say in closing, I kind of wanted to remember what the repentance process was in terms of what the Church says. And I asked several people, and they remember different things. Oh, I taught this on my mission or I did this or that. And I looked it up. I and the steps from the church website for repentance for a perpetrator like this gentleman that we're talking about, of course, first the sorrow for your sin, then confession. Right. So these steps have been followed by our perpetrator and then abandonment of the sin. We're hoping that happened. Then restitution and then righteous living.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:09:43] So I thought where is where sort of accountability, like on a level where you might have to serve time or you might have to go to court, work Restitution, according to the website, says we must restore as far as possible all that has been damaged by our actions, whether that is someone's property or someone's good reputation. Willing restitution shows the Lord that we what we will do to repent. So nowhere in those steps does it seem to say that you need to take some kind of accountability on a level where you know you might have to undergo a legal proceeding. It's like everybody's trying to wiggle away from that. It's not really part of the repentance sentence process as I read it.

John Dehlin [02:10:23] A couple really important comments are coming in then. Bill, I want to get you into this. Several of the viewers or listeners are making the really important point that we should never have like this trauma Olympics where you're comparing abuse. So Amy Sharp writes, there's no point in comparing them.

Radio Free Mormon [02:10:39] Can I just pause on that?

John Dehlin [02:10:41] Yeah, yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:10:42] That's what lawyers do. That's where 300,000 comes from. That's where 90,000 comes from. As distasteful as it is and as I acknowledge that it is, the only way to compensate abuse is with money in our society. And those are different amounts.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:11:03] Whether it's sex abuse or whether it's physical abuse or just physical trauma or death on the highway. Right, right. Is this a 21 year old old who's in good health with, who's married with a baby on the way, who's got his whole life ahead of him and is halfway through law school or medical school? Or is this a man who's at the end of his life, 78, he's got an oxygen tank and he gets killed. Those both can get killed by the exact same mechanism of negligence on the highway and the result will be drastically different just because they're differently situated. So I recognize that that may be and probably is an idea that's out there that there's no point in comparing abuse. But that's what attorneys do for a living.

Guest [02:11:49] Got it.

John Dehlin [02:11:51] Fine Girl also. Right. That's a good clarification. RFM Fine Girl also writes it's dangerous to start comparing cases. I think from the standpoint of the victim, we never want victims to feel like their case is being diminished or minimalized. And I think from that perspective. We can all agree that to the victim here, we're not at all saying your case doesn't matter. It's insignificant.

John Dehlin [02:12:12] So thanks for that clarification. RFM folks are are asking, Patty Cake's asking that everyone hit the like button. I'll just add, please subscribe to these various YouTube channels or Facebook groups wherever you are. Subscribing to the channels helps with the algorithms. It helps us grow, it helps with monetization.

John Dehlin [02:12:34] So we would really, really appreciate folks subscribing and as we mentioned, donating Lamar writes. Great episode. Love this group. All Stars. Thanks Lamar Parkin for sharing. Anthony writes, I think the story is the hush money. I'm going to say I think the story is recording the conversations with the bishop and with the church leader. I hope we just have more and more and more members courageous enough to record their meetings with church leaders, with church lawyers, with bishops and stake presidents, and they'll share them because transparency, you know, sunshine is the best disinfectant. Those are some of the heroes here, as well as Resendez and his partner, because we wouldn't get this visibility without these journals, this rfm. I'm sorry, Bill Real. What, what final comments do you want to make?

Bill Reel [02:13:29] Bill Real When I look at this case, the case that RFM mentioned earlier, which was not to say this one wasn't egregious again, as we're talking about, but egregious, that case that you spoke of, in both situations, you have family members committing abuse under the guise of also serving in the church in positions of worthiness. And so it's not just how the church handles abuse. When you, you, when you go like, well, we can report it. We don't report it. We, we allow this person have penitent privilege. We don't allow that person. That's not the only debate in a high demand fundamentalist religion. You have a teaching in this church that it's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true for all of us lay members who believed emphatically at one point.

Bill Reel [02:14:12] We were taught to apply that from the bishop on up. So there is a, there's a level of giving cover because you, you're felt, you're taught by your church to give cover and not shine a light on things. Second one, the valuing of loyalty and obedience over truth telling. The third one, valuing of authority over intuition or conscience. Those are church theological positions that the church teaches its members on a regular basis. And so I'm in my head going, if I'M a young person and in many instances a child child. And I'm abused by a family member who holds a prominent position in a ward or higher.

Bill Reel [02:14:53] That has to be such a confusing juxtaposition of here's my dad, he's God's servant, serving as the bishop. You know, Monday through Friday, he's the local electrician or carpet salesman, which I was. But on Sunday and in the evenings, I mean this guy speaks for God from he, he, he gets revelation for the ward. He, he directs the affairs of the ward under the direction of the Spirit. And he's abusing me in ways that feel wrong. But how could he.

John Dehlin [02:15:24] He's.

Bill Reel [02:15:24] He's the bishop. And the church says they don't, they don't make mistakes in calling leaders. The church tells me, I know the church is true. And it tells me that bishops have discernment and they have the Holy Ghost and the people who call them have discernment in the Holy Ghost most. When you're a victim in a high demand fundamentalist religion and you're being abused by one who holds authority in that religion, I can't imagine trying to wrestle with those thoughts as a young person who believes emphatically that the church is true.

John Dehlin [02:15:56] Thank you, Bishop Bill. Bishop Bill Real. I'll just share a quick comment. Fine. Girl writes. So happy to see Mormonish or Rebecca involved in this panel. Panel showing their presence is important and growing. Yes. Rebecca is a very special contributor to our YouTube, Facebook, Internet communities. And Rebecca, we're so grateful to have you on this panel. Same with you Bill and rfm. Really quickly, I'm going to just acknowledge I failed majorly. We were going to keep this under two hours. It's 2:16. We need your feedback. I apologize for that.

Radio Free Mormon [02:16:29] God knows I tried.

John Dehlin [02:16:31] I know.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:16:31] Sorry, never happened. I knew it.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Well, we could decide what we want to do. Maybe we don't want to just read full articles. I don't know. I hope I didn't out talk the rest of you. I tried to just moderate, but do we really want to quickly just share any hopes or aspirations for this project? Bill, you and I talked about this originally. Bill, do you want to share anything about what people can hopefully expect from the Mormon times in future weeks and months and years?

Bill Reel [02:16:57] Yeah. I hope that we are intelligent and articulate. I hope that we are entertaining on some level. But at the core of this, my hope is that we can talk about Mormonism in a way that is honest, transparent, forthright, and tries its best to be balanced. Not balanced as in 50% for pro faith and 50% against faith, but rather like, here's the truth, here's all sides, and allow the viewer to get information because the, the believers are taught that ex Mormon, which I think at least a chunk of this panel will be made up of at all times, are dishonest. They work with Satan, they're being deceived.

Bill Reel [02:17:44] And the reality is that I don't think there's anybody more than, than our effort to try to shine a light on Mormonism and to help people see things perhaps through a glass less, less darkly. And I hope that while we do entertain and we do maybe humor you a little bit, that will offer you something, that you get a more well rounded, more informed view than those guys on the other side who say that research isn't the answer.

John Dehlin [02:18:13] I love it. Thanks, Bill. Our goal is to do this, do this show weekly. We'll try and have it at a, at a predetermined day and time, but it's going to fluctuate because we're going to want to hit stories when they're hot. And so we may have a moving date a little bit. Rebecca, you're an important partner in this collaboration. Anything you want to add about your hopes or intentions?

Wrap-Up and Thanks to the Panel

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:18:37] Well, I just feel like, it seems like recently the news in the Mormon world is just coming faster and faster. It's very hard to keep up if you're a church watcher like I am. And there are so many different sources and voices. And that's why I love it that we are a variety of voices here that can kind of cut through this and just share our perspectives. And what I'm most excited about is the idea that while we have our group here, we're going to have so many other panelists join us across the board from all different perspectives. And I know we had thrown a couple names around and I'm just, I'm really excited about that.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:19:11] And I'm also excited about the interaction with, with our viewers. We would love to hear. What kind of news would you like us to see covered? If you're the first one to come across at 3am, please send it to one of us. And I'm sure that we'll have a mechanism here in the Mormon Times where you can, you know, report things to us that would be important because it really is a crowdsourcing effort, I think, and that's the whole purpose, is to bring people things that are relevant, things that are important, things that we need to know from a variety of voices. So I'M just really excited about the whole project and really happy to be included.

John Dehlin [02:19:44] Absolutely. If you have feedback, if you want to tell us ideas, suggestions, criticisms, reach out, you know, to RFM, to Bill, to Rebecca, or to me. Imormoustories gmail.com Ready for Mormon. How do people reach you?

Radio Free Mormon [02:20:00] Not very well. I got an email address that sometimes gets looked at. Radio freemoron1gmail.com and you're Bill, you're realmormongmail.com.

John Dehlin [02:20:11] is that right, Bill? Or do you use it?

Bill Reel [02:20:13] Yeah, but let's, let's just use the podcast one. So Mormon discussions with an S on the end. Podcast with an S on the end.

John Dehlin [02:20:21] Okay. And Rebecca, how do people reach you?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:20:23] We're just mormonish podcast gmail.com But I feel like maybe we should have some kind of a Mormon Times Facebook presence or Instagram presence. We're gonna have to get somebody to do this for us because I think that'd be important. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:36] And I'll just add we're looking to have an occasional believing Mormon on our panel if we could have a really sharp, thoughtful, entertaining, believing Mormon. And we would love to have some of that balance sometimes on this show.

Radio Free Mormon [02:20:50] You mean like Patrick Mason?

John Dehlin [02:20:51] What's that?

Radio Free Mormon [02:20:52] You mean like Patrick Mason?

John Dehlin [02:20:53] Like, like Patrick Base?

Radio Free Mormon [02:20:55] I'm never letting that go.

John Dehlin [02:20:56] You know, like Patrick Mason, maybe. What's that?

Radio Free Mormon [02:21:00] I was telling Patrick it's a running gag now.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] Maybe we can get generous to come on sometimes. We would also just love to hear who you'd like to have on. We just hope that they're thoughtful, entertaining and, you know, do a good job really quickly, please like this episode. Please subscribe wherever you are. Please donate to Mormon Ish podcast, to Mormon Discussions, or to Radio Free Mormon or to that network. And then, yeah, we're going to be coming on in the future. Any final, any final words before we go?

Radio Free Mormon [02:21:33] As far as entertainment goes, my hope is that Bill real and I will be the post Mormon version of Harvard. Harvey Corman and Tim Conway.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] And who's Harvey?

Bill Reel [02:21:42] What?

John Dehlin [02:21:44] Your Carol Burnett.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:21:45] That makes me Carol Burnett. Right.

Radio Free Mormon [02:21:48] I'm so glad we had this time together.

John Dehlin [02:21:52] She does the earring thing.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:21:53] I do the earring.

John Dehlin [02:21:55] Who am I? I. I don't have a.

Radio Free Mormon [02:21:57] Let's see, you're Lyle Wagner.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:21:59] You're Lil Wayne. Yes, you are Lyle Wagner.

Radio Free Mormon [02:22:02] Tall, good looking guy.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:22:04] Poor Bill, he's like, who the hell are these people? People.

John Dehlin [02:22:09] All right, all right. Well, thanks, Rebecca. Thanks, rfm. Thanks, Bill. We're looking forward to, you know, hundreds of episodes if we can keep this going. Thanks to our viewers and listeners. Thanks to Maven and Julia for helping out with the chats and the time codes and show notes and stuff. And yeah, we, we appreciate everyone who donated and supported us today in the chat. So please subscribe, please, like, please donate. And most importantly, please come back next week for another episode, hopefully, of the Mormon times. Thanks, everybody. Take care, everyone. We'll see you all again very soon. Bye Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.