Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's June 6, 2026 and today we have a very serious but important Mormon Stories episode. We are going to be talking about abuse and abuse cover ups within the Mormon Church context.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] And the types of main plot lines that we're going to be covering today are, number one, you know what happens when you marry a Mormon man and he becomes a Mormon bishop and a Stake presidency member and then you find out that he was a child abuser before he was ever called as bishop or into a Mormon state presidency. And then what happens when you perceive the church to be covering up the sexual abuse of your husband, but then finally he is charged and it does become public? Then what happens when you feel like the church leaders that are supposed to be supporting you, specifically your stake president, aren't supporting you and seem to be more focused on protecting the church and its good name and legal issues than providing you pastoral support?

John Dehlin [00:01:16] And then finally, this is the most shocking part of all. What happens when the stake president that you believe was leading the COVID up of your husband, ex husband's child sexual abuse is promoted to Area Authority 70. This is not fictitious. This is a real story. It's a very serious one. And it's going to be an in depth look at how the Mormon Church is handling child sexual abuse and reporting and coverups in the 2000 and twenties. And we have brought today to Mormon Story Studio Rebecca Gooden to tell this story. Hey, Rebecca.

Rebecca Gooden [00:02:00] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Thank you so much for traveling from Pennsylvania to do this story.

Rebecca Gooden [00:02:05] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] And then also joining us today to provide a support to Rebecca, but also to share his perspective as well is Matthew Gooden, the son of Rebecca and the man we're going to be talking about today.

Matthew Gooden [00:02:24] Thanks for having us on. Thanks for having us on, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] Yeah, thanks for joining us. All right, so there's a lot to this story. This is definitely going to be a two to three hour story for sure. Rebecca, anything you want to say as a disclaimer at the beginning in terms of anything I got wrong, anything you wanted to add for the introduction and anything you want to share about why you wanted to tell your Mormon story?

Rebecca Introduces Herself and Her Story

Rebecca Gooden [00:02:51] No, I think you got everything right. I think the biggest reason that I wanted to tell my story was that there's a lot of misinformation and I just wanted to make sure the truth was out.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] Yeah. Yeah. All right, let me go ahead and begin by showing the men we're talking about the the perpetrator, I guess if, if we can use that word that we're going to be talking about today is former Mormon Bishop Sean Gooden.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] He was an attorney in Pennsylvania. He abused at least two children early in his marriage with Rebecca. We'll be getting into that. But then after that he was called as an LDS bishop and. And then after that he was called as an LDS second counselor in a Stake Presidency. And then he was promoted to first counselor in the Stake Presidency. So that's kind of his background.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] And then the man on the right is Elder Rhett Eny. Heny. I'm, I'm going to get that wrong. And he was the stake president over this case. Rebecca and Matthew, you know, in their words, they feel like he was involved in a cover up of the child abuse that left members of the church vulnerable. And then just recently, in the past 12 months. Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Elder Rhett Hencey was called to be an area authority. 70. So those are the two that we're going to be shining a bit of a spotlight on today. And yeah, so that's how we begin. I'll just show just, just for the sake of thoroughness, these are some of the news articles that broke.

John Dehlin [00:04:52] Local attorney disbarred in Pennsylvania after sexual assault charges. That's one example of the type of news that this story broke. This was last year in 2025. Another one says former Lebanon County Boy Scouts LDS official charged in child sex assault case. And also there was a British online newspaper that covered this story as well.

Matthew Gooden [00:05:23] Yes. I believe Daily Mail, they were looking into sexual abuse within the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] Okay.

Matthew Gooden [00:05:31] They interviewed me back in 2024 for that.

Guest [00:05:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] And then y' all were also on Mormonism Live or Radio Free Mormon, Bill Reels. Which show was it?

Rebecca Gooden [00:05:42] Radio Free Mormon. He asked us. Not long after Sean was put in jail. He asked us to come on.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] But that was before Elder Hencey was promoted to area authority.

Rebecca Gooden [00:05:54] Yes. Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [00:05:55] If I remember correctly, we did the interview with RFM a month after charges were filed against Rhett. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Oh, and that's, that's something that I didn't mention in the introduction. Stake President Heny was actually charged with failure to report child abuse.

Rebecca Gooden [00:06:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] And later those charges were dropped. And we're going to talk about that as well, Is that right?

Guest 2 [00:06:21] Yes. Correct.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Okay, so we've got a lot to cover today. Again, because we're talking about abuse. We just would welcome and urge anyone listening to take care for yourself or anyone else who might be listening because we're going to be talking about very difficult topics today. So. All right, well. So, Rebecca, let's just talk briefly about your high level Mormon background before you married Sean. Is that all right?

Rebecca and Sean's Mormon Background

Rebecca Gooden [00:06:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] So were you. Were your parents lds? Were you raised in the church?

Rebecca Gooden [00:06:57] I was raised in the church, yeah. My parents were both converts. I moved to Northern Virginia when I was 8 years old, so I spent most of my youth there, and we were very active. I had a great group of youth friends that I was with and a good time and did all of the things that Mormon youth do, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] Would you say your Mormon experience in childhood and adolescence was positive?

Rebecca Gooden [00:07:28] Yes.

Guest [00:07:29] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [00:07:29] Yeah. At the time, I. Yeah, I thought it was great. I loved being a member of the church. I. I loved the friend groups. I loved the activities that we did. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] And then how did you meet Sean?

Rebecca Gooden [00:07:43] Sean and I were actually friends in high school. We knew each other in high school.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] So you were LDs together and you went to the same high school?

Rebecca Gooden [00:07:50] Yes.

Guest 3 [00:07:51] And where.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Where was that?

Rebecca Gooden [00:07:52] Northern Virginia.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:07:53] Just south of Washington, D.C. okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] So is this kind of like a lot of federal employees, a lot of military?

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] Military and federal employees. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] So we're kind of high school sweethearts or not?

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:05] No, we were friends. We were good friends.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Okay.

Matthew Gooden [00:08:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Wow. Okay. Was there, man. So did he serve a mission?

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:15] He did.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] Okay. And y' all weren't dating before then?

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:20] No.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] Okay. Where do you. Where did John serve a mission?

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:23] Cleveland, Ohio.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Okay. And then how did y' all end up together?

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:26] We connected again back at byu.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] So you both went to byu? Provo.

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] Reconnected there.

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] And about what year were you engaged and married?

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:36] We got married in August of 96.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:08:40] So he got back from his mission, I think the end of 95, and we lived close to each other and, you know, hung out all semester and got engaged and got married.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] Okay, this is. And at any point in this conversation, I want you to just not answer any question you don't want to answer or answer it exactly how you want to.

Rebecca Gooden [00:09:03] Okay.

Signs of Abuse and Early Marriage

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Were there any signs, I mean, one of the great mysteries, I think that, like, I think most people in the world would say, how in the world could anyone ever abuse a child? You know, like, it's gotta be a mental illness at some level, because everyone else who doesn't abuse children pretty much says, how could anyone ever do that? So, you know, I haven't studied this topic in depth in terms of trying to understand what research there is out there about signs or, you know, what. What factors might contribute or what traits these you know, child abusers might have. But is there. Was there any indication prior to you marrying Sean, even as you reflect now back, did you have any indication, even reflecting back that he. No, I mean, would be a child abuser?

Rebecca Gooden [00:09:56] Not long after we were married, he told me that he had been abused as a child. And so he, you know, talked about that, but never, never would I have expected that he would have abused anybody.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] And, you know, from my background with my psychology degree, I can say,

Guest 3 [00:10:17] you

John Dehlin [00:10:18] know, victims of abuse and just. Yeah, victims of abuse. Want to make sure it's broadly known that there's no correlation between. There's no really demonstrated correlation between being. Being a victim of abuse and becoming a perpetrator. So when it. When it does show up that a perpetrator was a victim, it's always pretty important to mention that you shouldn't suspect of abuse victim to be a perpetrator. So I just had to lay that, yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [00:10:53] Yeah, I never. I would have never suspected.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] Okay, so there was no weird or odd behavior that. That was a red flag to you? And all the time you dated him or married him?

Rebecca Gooden [00:11:03] No.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] Okay. Okay. So temple marriage. Yes, D.C. temple.

Rebecca Gooden [00:11:09] D.C. temple.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] That's where Margi and I were. Were married as well?

Rebecca Gooden [00:11:13] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] In 93. Okay. So you start your life.

Rebecca Gooden [00:11:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] And what, this was 96? 96, yep. Okay. And so, yeah, how. How does your life proceed at that point?

Rebecca Gooden [00:11:28] So we went back out to. We weren't finished with school yet. We went back out to BYU and, you know, started school again. He was. He had always wanted to go to law school, so he was a political science major, and he was working on that. And I was a family science major, and we had children pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Let's talk. Let's. Let's play a couple video clips that I think you would say were important in your decision making on whether or not to pursue a career, whether or not to have kids and how soon to have kids and how many is that. All right.

Guest [00:12:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] Do you want to set this first clip up with Henry Eyring?

Rebecca Gooden [00:12:10] Sure. That one. That was actually a talk that elder Irene gave when I was at byu. It was just before I was married, but it talked about how. How women should, you know, get married and plan to have children and stay home. And that's always what, in my mind, what I was supposed to do, stay home and advocate. So you.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] You wanted us to play this clip because it was influential to you?

Rebecca Gooden [00:12:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Is that right? Okay. Okay. All right, well, let's go ahead and play that clip.

Guest 3 [00:12:42] Now, those two paragraphs are loaded with practical implications. There are things we can start to do tonight. They have to do with providing for the spiritual and physical needs of a family. There are things we can do now to prepare long before the need so that we can be at peace, knowing we have done all we can do to begin with, we can decide to plan for success, not failure.

Guest 3 [00:13:11] Statistics are thrown at us every day to persuade us that a family composed of a loving father and mother with children loved, taught and cared for in the way the proclamation enjoins as going the way of the dinosaurs toward extinction.

Guest 3 [00:13:26] And you have enough evidence in your own families that righteous people sometimes have their families ripped apart by circumstances beyond their control. So it takes courage and faith to plan for what God holds before you as the ideal, rather than what might be forced upon you by circumstances.

Guest 3 [00:13:47] There are important ways in which planning for failure can make failure more likely and the ideal less so. Let's take these twin commandments as an example. Fathers are to provide the necessities of life for their families, and mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.

Guest 3 [00:14:09] Knowing how hard that might be, a young man, perhaps some listening tonight, might choose a career on the basis of how much money he could make, even if it meant he couldn't be home enough to be an equal partner.

Guest 3 [00:14:24] By doing that, he has already decided he cannot hope to do what would be best. A young woman might prepare for a career incompatible with being primarily responsible for the nurture of her children because of the possibilities of not marrying or of not having children or being left alone to provide for them herself. Or she might fail to focus her education on the gospel and the knowledge of the world. Nurturing a family would require not realizing that the highest and best use she could make of her talents and education would be in her home. Because they had planned to take care of the worst, they might make the best less likely.

John Dehlin [00:15:09] Did he just say that a woman, when she pursues education, should focus her college education on whatever would help her be a good mom? Is that what I just heard?

Rebecca Gooden [00:15:21] Yeah, that's what I got out of it.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] So, yeah, I'm sorry, I should have started with that question. What did you take from that part of Irish?

Rebecca Gooden [00:15:29] I just, I. When I. I remember hearing that when I was at BYU and thinking, you know, some people say, oh, you should get an education just in case you need it later, or you should do this just in case. And I remember hearing that and thinking, but President Irene just said, no, we should prepare to do for the for the best to happen, we should prepare. I should be preparing to stay home and take care of children, and Sean should be preparing to, you know, have a career so that he can provide, so that I can do that.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] Yeah. And I think it's clear that that's probably what serves the church best, because I think the bigger the church is, the stronger it is, the wealthier it is, the more powerful it is. And so the extent to which you can funnel families and women into those traditional roles, they can have more children and more faithful children, and that grows the kingdom, grows the tithing, grows the power, the wealth, the influence, increases the number of missionaries. Yeah. And also, from the church's perspective, creates as many celestial beings as possible. So, I mean, I think we could say those are all probably motives that factor in.

Rebecca Gooden [00:16:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] What I'm hearing you say, Rebecca, is that maybe it left you vulnerable.

Rebecca Gooden [00:16:55] It did, yes. Yeah. Because I thought. I think even through our marriage, we planned for, you know, we had life insurance, we had, you know, all of the things to prepare for something bad happening, but we never prepared for divorce and jail and all of the things that did happen.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] All right, let's play the next clip from my cousin, Ezra Taft Benson, and then you can tell us how this clip influenced you as well.

Guest [00:17:31] Young mothers and fathers, with all my heart, I counsel you not to postpone having your children being co creators with our Father in heaven. Do not use the seasoning of the world such as, we'll wait until we can better afford having children, until we are more secure, until John has completed his education, until he has a better paying job, until we have a larger home, until we've obtained a few of the material conveniences, and on and on.

Guest [00:18:34] This is the reasoning of the world and is not pleasing in the sight of God. Mothers who enjoy good health, have your children and have them early. And husbands, always be considerate of your wives in the bearing of children.

Guest [00:19:01] Do not curtail the number your children for personal or selfish reasons. Material possessions, social convenience, and so called professional advantages are nothing compared to a righteous posterity. In the eternal perspective, children, not possessions, not position, not prestige, are our great jewels.

Guest [00:19:39] Brigham Young emphasized there are multitudes of pure and holy spirits waiting to take tabernacles. Now, what is our duty to prepare tabernacles for them to take a course that will not tend to drive those spirits into the families of the wicked, where they will be trained in wickedness and debauchery and every species of crime.

Guest [00:20:18] It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to Prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can. Yea, blessed is the husband and wife who have a family of children. The deepest joys and blessings in life are associated with parenthood and sacrifice.

Guest [00:20:51] To have those sweet spirits come into the home is worth practically any sacrifice. We realize that some women, through no fault of their own, are not able to bear children to these lovely sisters. Every prophet of God has promised that they will be blessed with children in the eternities and that posterity will not be denied them. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:21:35] Tell me some thoughts now, as you. As you listen to that.

Rebecca Gooden [00:21:40] I just think it. For me personally, it totally set me up for a very vulnerable position. I. You know, when we were young, I just thought, yeah, we should be having children, and if that means I have to stop my education, then that's okay, because we are planning for. For success, for the best, and, you know, the Lord will take care of us.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] I was. I was blown away by a couple of things there. First of all, I think that talk was given while I was at BYU a little earlier than y', all. And, yeah, he's like, have as many as you can. Don't be selfish. But this idea that there's just oodles of spirits up in heaven waiting to come down, and you need to have as many kids as possible as Mormons, because if you don't raise those spirits as Mormons, they'll be raised by wicked families, basically implying that every family that is in a Mormon family is a wicked family.

Rebecca Gooden [00:22:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Yeah. But also that it's selfish to not have as many kids as early as possible. Yeah, like, that's. And so did that talk influence you as well?

Rebecca Gooden [00:22:52] Yeah, yeah, we had. So we were married in August of 96, and Matthew was born in December of 97.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] Oh, my goodness.

Rebecca Gooden [00:23:01] And Sarah was 18 months later.

Guest 3 [00:23:05] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Okay. And so, you know, looking back now, just really quickly, do you wish you. Did you want to take. Was there a part of you inside that wanted to take a different path? Or was this something you made of your own free will and choice, separate from the religious upbringing you had? Or can you even know?

Rebecca Gooden [00:23:27] I. You know, looking back, I wish that I had made different choices, but at the time, I was doing what I was taught, and I believed that it was what I wanted.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:23:40] So I. Yeah, nobody was forcing me into it. You know, that's what. But it's because that's how I had been raised. I remember there were a couple of memories that came to mind when I was younger. I wanted to be a doctor, and I remember somebody saying, well, you can't be a doctor. Girls are nurses. And so I thought, okay, well, not a doctor. And then I remember vividly talking to my parents and saying, I really want to be an astronaut. And I remember my dad saying, you can't be an astronaut. You're going to be a mom.

Rebecca Gooden [00:24:11] And so I just remember, you know, from that messaging and from the church that, okay, I. I have to be a mom. And so I was at school, but it was. It was mostly social, I think. I. You know, friends and dating, and it was never with the intention of having a career. And so I didn't finish. I. I stopped school about a semester short of graduation to take care of babies.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] And so you didn't finish your bachelor's degree?

Rebecca Gooden [00:24:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] Oh, wow. Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [00:24:44] No.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, that's a good foundation. So y' all start having kids immediately?

Rebecca Gooden [00:24:53] Yeah.

Family Timeline and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Let's go through the timeline now. So you have two kids and you move.

Rebecca Gooden [00:24:58] We moved six weeks after our second was born. We moved to outside Philadelphia. Sean was going to law school there.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] Where'd he go?

Rebecca Gooden [00:25:08] Villanova.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] Okay. Good school.

Rebecca Gooden [00:25:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:25:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] And Matthew, where are you in the birth order?

Matthew Gooden [00:25:16] I'm the oldest.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Oh, so you were the first kid?

Matthew Gooden [00:25:19] Yes, I was born into some.

John Dehlin [00:25:20] I missed that. Okay, so you were the first kid. Okay.

Matthew Gooden [00:25:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] O. Okay. So you two kids, you moved to Philadelphia so Sean can go.

Rebecca Gooden [00:25:29] Started law school.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] To law school. And do you. This is where the victims come in. Do you want to talk about how the victims may or may not have been related to you?

Rebecca Gooden [00:25:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] And how he had access to them and.

Rebecca Gooden [00:25:45] Yeah, they were my brothers.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] Okay, so younger brothers.

Rebecca Gooden [00:25:48] My younger brothers. They're much younger than me. So the abuse happened in, I think it was 2000.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] So four years into your marriage, basically, with two kids.

Rebecca Gooden [00:26:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] While he's in law school.

Rebecca Gooden [00:26:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:26:06] He was in law school. I was home with two babies.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] And what was your. Were you living near your family? Were they.

Rebecca Gooden [00:26:13] Yeah, they were still in Northern Virginia, and so we would go down there and visit them, and I think the abuse happened. They went on camping trips, and I. You know, when I found that out, I don't even remember. I mean, I had two babies. I don't remember a lot about those. Those years, but, you know, I don't even remember them going camping, but apparently they had gone camping, and that's where it happened.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] And the chances are this wouldn't be his first. These wouldn't be his first victims. I mean, that's just what the odds would Say. Yeah, but I guess. Do you have no knowledge, has it ever come out that there were victims prior to your.

Rebecca Gooden [00:26:54] No, it's been. I mean it's been pretty public, it's been in the news and nobody else has come forward so that I know of. There was no other before or after

John Dehlin [00:27:04] that you know of. Okay. And are you able to say what the ages were again of your brothers at the time?

Rebecca Gooden [00:27:12] They would have been. The oldest would have been. He was born in 86, so that

Matthew Gooden [00:27:20] would have made him 14 at the time.

Rebecca Gooden [00:27:21] 14. So 12 and 14.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] Okay, 12 and 14 at the time. And that's interesting that, that sort of, I guess to your brothers he would have been brother in law.

Rebecca Gooden [00:27:36] Brother in law, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] Okay. So that's interesting that a brother in law will be taking his younger brothers in law camping. But yeah, yeah, okay.

Matthew Gooden [00:27:45] I mean, part of it. They were all involved in scouting.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] Oh, because your dad, Sean was a scoutmaster.

Matthew Gooden [00:27:52] He was. He was. I don't think at this time he was a scoutmaster. Was he?

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Eventually he was probably not, but he was.

Rebecca Gooden [00:27:59] They were all Eagle Scouts. You know, my brothers were getting their Eagle Scouts and. But they were all.

Matthew Gooden [00:28:05] Camping was a regular thing that all three of them would have been used to for being raised in scouting. This was still way back when church and scouting were very much intertwined.

Rebecca Gooden [00:28:14] And he probably, you know, said, oh, you know, they wanted to go camping. And so he probably said, oh, I'll take him, you know, and we were probably, oh great. That sounds, that sounds fun. Sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Okay. And you know, I'll refer especially our viewers and listeners who have never been Mormon. But even if you have been, the Boy Scouting program used to be sort of like the young men's program for the church for let's say a century, a long, long time.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] And you know, of several years ago, the church jettisoned the Boy Scouts of America program without really explaining why. And it almost left members at the impression that the Boy Scouts of America was becoming too worldly or too secular, maybe for having gay scoutmasters or maybe for allow gay, you know, Boy Scouts or even maybe girls. But what the documents show is that the Mormon Church was deeply intertwined with the Boy Scouts of America leadership and that there were tens of thousands of child abuse victims within the Boy Scouts of America and a large, large, large number of Mormon child abuse victims. And the liabilities were becoming so, so great that that's why the church had to jettison it and because the Mormon Church had a disproportionate influence on the Boy Scouts of America, they had liability for this rampant systemic abuse that happened for 50 or 100 years.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] And so y' all can go watch past Mormon Stories episodes about all that, but it's a thing, so it's worth just noting. So anyway, Sean commits the abuse in 2000. But was. Did anyone. Did the. Did your brothers tell anyone? Did anyone know? Did you know?

The Abuse Comes to Light

Rebecca Gooden [00:30:06] I didn't know. My. The rest of my family didn't know. Nobody knew.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Yeah. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:30:12] And apparent. And from what I've been told, it stopped. You know, it happened a couple of times, and then it stopped and didn't happen again. Happen again.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] Yeah. And then three years after the abuse, Sean was called his young men's president.

Rebecca Gooden [00:30:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Which is a pretty big failure of what Mormons like. Well, what Mormons are taught is called the gift of discernment. Mormons are taught that Mormon bishops, Mormon stake Presidents, Mormon leaders make their callings by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, that God influences the leaders to call people to their callings. Why in the world would God tell a Mormon bishop to call a child abuser as young men's president three years after he had abused two young men.

Rebecca Gooden [00:31:04] Yeah. And to a calling. When he was going on campouts and alone with these. I mean, they say two deep leadership, but he was, you know, out on campouts. The very place that the abuse had happened with my brothers, he was in those situations over and over again.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] Yeah. So one request we've been making for a long, long time is that the Mormon Church just renounce that teaching of discernment, because it clearly has just failed over and over again. The biggest problem with it is that it leaves members vulnerable because they trust that belief that leaders are called of God and that they have God's inspiration, that callings are inspired by God, leaves members vulnerable to trust leaders when those leaders haven't really earned their trust. And the Mormon Church to this day doesn't really do anything to do background checks or vetting. And they've covered up so much abuse at this point, there's a decent chance your Mormon leader is a past abuser these days.

Rebecca Gooden [00:32:08] And I remember when he was called as a young men's president, we had just moved into a new ward. Um, he had just graduated, and we'd moved into a new ward. It was the first time that we met with our new bishop, and he said, I know I don't know you well, but we want you to be the young men's president. And he had no. No background. He knew nothing about Sean at the time, yeah. He was called as the Young Men's president.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] And if that weren't bad enough, two years later or five years after the abuse, Sean is called as bishop, which is to lead in the bishopric.

Rebecca Gooden [00:32:42] Oh, called into a bishopric Church into the bishopric, yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:45] Okay. As what?

Rebecca Gooden [00:32:47] Second counselor, I think, which is the

John Dehlin [00:32:50] third most powerful position in a Mormon congregation.

Rebecca Gooden [00:32:53] Correct. Over the youth. He was always with the youth and not most of his callings.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Was he eventually a bishop?

Guest 2 [00:33:00] Yes.

Matthew Gooden [00:33:00] Yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Okay, so I didn't get that totally wrong. Okay, so he's called into a bishopric first. Two years later, you move.

Rebecca Gooden [00:33:09] Then we move out to the Harrisburg stake. Well, I guess it's the Lancaster stake at that point. We move out near Hershey.

Matthew Gooden [00:33:16] It's still always the Harrisburg stake. When it splits, they form the Lancaster stake.

Rebecca Gooden [00:33:20] Okay, well, we moved out central Pennsylvania, near Hershey, Pennsylvania.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] And his calling then becomes.

Matthew Gooden [00:33:29] Well, first it was first Young Men's president again.

Rebecca Gooden [00:33:31] No, he was the. Or is it scout master, Primary pianist.

Matthew Gooden [00:33:35] That's the first one.

Rebecca Gooden [00:33:36] But yeah, he was very quickly put into the Young Men's. He was always. And he was Young Men's president again and scoutmaster.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] And it says that by 2009, he was called into the High Council.

Rebecca Gooden [00:33:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] And then into the Stake Presidency.

Rebecca Gooden [00:33:51] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] So, I mean, he's just promoted because by the time he's in the Stake presidency now, a stake, a Mormon stake, covers like 12 congregations. And so there's, you know, a stake president and two counselors and then 12 high counselors. And those 15 men run 12 Mormon congregations, which is thousands and thousands of members. And again, they're going to have access to everyone and a lot of status. Right?

Rebecca Gooden [00:34:22] Yes.

Matthew Gooden [00:34:23] And also while he was in the Stake Presidency, he was once again put over all of the stake youth functions. He was dances, youth conference, all of that stuff. Throughout his entire career within the church, it's always been being over the youth.

Rebecca Gooden [00:34:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Yeah. So that's 2013. He's called as a second counselor in the Stake Presidency, and then he's promoted to first counselor in this. In the stake presidency in 2014. So, I mean, man, a lot of access to children. Like, it is kind of unbelievable that he would abuse just that few times and then never repeat in all that time with all that access to children. That's not typically how child abuse works, but, you know, we have no data otherwise. Right, Correct.

Rebecca Gooden [00:35:13] Yeah. No, nobody has come forward to say anything different than that.

John Dehlin [00:35:16] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [00:35:17] So.

John Dehlin [00:35:19] And then 2016, to leave no stone unturned, to leave no Major mistake unmade. Sixteen years after the child abuse, he is called as a bishop. Right. Which gives him the most power and the most direct access to the most number of children, Correct?

Matthew Gooden [00:35:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] Yeah. And his job is to determine the worthiness of others, whether they're worthy to go to the temple and whether a young youth is worthy to take the sacrament or if there's infidelity. He's judging. He's a judge in Israel. A Mormon bishop is literally known as a judge in Israel. So as a child abuser, he's put in charge of calling people to positions, full access to youth and adults, and he's called as a judge in Israel to decide people's worthiness.

Guest [00:36:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] And by the way, the bishops and stake presidents and presidency members are. Those callings are approved by the prophet. By the first presidency of the prophet of the church, as I understand it.

Rebecca Gooden [00:36:22] Yeah. We have a certificate at home signed by the First Presidency when. Because the bishop is a. Was it called in the priesthood? It's a. It's a high priest, but no, it's its own office. Own office, yeah. So when he was sustained. Once you're a bishop, you're always a bishop. So once he was sustained, there's a letter, like a certificate that we have from. Signed by the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [00:36:46] And then it was. Elder Rasband came and set him apart.

Guest 3 [00:36:48] Right.

Rebecca Gooden [00:36:50] Well, back when he was called into the Stake Presidency, he was the guy who came by.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] So again, again, this challenges the credibility of this idea of the gift of discernment, even at the level of the Mormon prophet or First Presidency or the Quorum of the twelve. Because if a Mormon prophet is approving him as bishop or stake presidency member and. Or if Neil Rasband, Mormon Apostle, is setting him apart

Matthew Gooden [00:37:20] as what, in the Stake Presidency.

Rebecca Gooden [00:37:23] That's when he was called into the Stake Presidency. Elder Rasband, he wasn't an apostle then.

Matthew Gooden [00:37:27] Correct. He would have been the.

Rebecca Gooden [00:37:28] Came and reorganized the stake and called dad to.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] Okay, so that's. So those are kind of how he ascends the ladder. And then 2018 happens, which is when victim one first reports the abuse.

Victims Report Abuse and Family Reactions

Rebecca Gooden [00:37:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] Do you want to talk about that?

Rebecca Gooden [00:37:53] Sure. So you'll have to help me with the years. It's all it's been.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Yeah. November 2018. I guess he told your mom. The victim one tells your mom.

Rebecca Gooden [00:38:01] Yeah. So they had come for Thanksgiving, and so my. The second victim, the youngest in my family, was living with my parents. And the only odd thing that, you know, we can look back and see was that he would not allow his children to come over to my house. He didn't want his kids over at my house. And I would say, why can't they come over? What. What do you. What. What's wrong?

John Dehlin [00:38:29] And your brother had kids.

Rebecca Gooden [00:38:31] He had two children, and he did not want them over at my house. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:38:36] And I said, why can't they be over at my house? And he said. He said, well, and he, at this point, was not active in the church. And so he would say, you know, you guys are super Mormon, and I just don't want them to be indoctrinated. I don't want them raised the same way you're raising your kids. And

John Dehlin [00:38:54] is he trying to protect you and your. And your husband and your family at this point? Like, he's making up reasons that really aren't the real reasons.

Rebecca Gooden [00:39:02] It sounds like because, well, nobody told. No. Nobody knew. And instead of just saying, you know, he's an abuser, he just would say, no, I just don't feel comfortable. Or I don't want them to be raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Or. Do you have a sense for why he was not reporting earlier? Why he.

Rebecca Gooden [00:39:20] No idea.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] Yeah, I mean, so some theories would be based on, you know, what I've learned a little bit is that either the victims feel like it's somehow their fault, they somehow feel shame, or they want to protect family members.

Rebecca Gooden [00:39:37] I think they probably wanted to protect me. They didn't want my family to blow up. They didn't want. So, yeah, I think probably they wanted to protect me.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] And also, many victims aren't believed, and I think the overwhelming majority of victims aren't believed. So you don't want to cause all this distress to you and your family if you think there's not a likelihood you'll be believed anyway. And then also, it's just. It brings a lot of trauma and drama to the victim. Even if the victim has the possibility of justice, it maybe the victim doesn't want to be labeled as a abused victim or just doesn't want to introduce all that trauma and drama.

Rebecca Gooden [00:40:21] And I remember talking to my brothers later, and at one point, they said that not long after the abuse, Sean had been alone with them and talked to them and said. And apologized. Said, I. I'm sorry. I should not have done that. It was wrong, and I've repented.

Rebecca Gooden [00:40:40] And so that was kind of, you know, Right. Not long after the abuse happened. And that was the last, I think, that anybody ever talked about it. And so, yeah, my youngest brother did not want his kids at the house. And we would ask, you know, what's going on? Why, why are you being this way? And he never, he never told.

Rebecca Gooden [00:41:00] So victim one was home for Thanksgiving, and my mom and he were up talking in later in the evening, and she asked him, she said, do you know why victim two won't allow his children to go over to Rebecca's house?

Rebecca Gooden [00:41:19] And victim one said, do you really not know? And my mom said, I have no idea. And that's when he proceeded to tell her everything that had happened.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] And your brother, victim one was an active believer in the church, correct?

Guest [00:41:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] And as you already said, your brother, victim two was not. Was not. Okay. And so it wasn't just the non believing brother. The believing brother too acknowledged this abuse happened?

Rebecca Gooden [00:41:50] Yes. So at this point, it was acknowledged that Sean had abused two of my brothers, Victim one and victim two.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Yeah. And so would your mom. How'd your mom handle that?

Rebecca Gooden [00:42:00] She was crushed. She, I mean, she, you know, when I talked to her later, she says she was a stay at home mom. And she said her whole life she stayed home because she wanted to protect and take care of her kids. And she felt like when they needed her most, she couldn't protect them because she had no idea. So she, she felt terrible. She was devastated that that had happened.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] And I, I know from talking to so many people who leave the church and how hard it is on families that when a Mormon parent's child leaves the church, oftentimes the faithful Mormon parents blame themselves. So I would guess that your mom would associate victim twos leaving the church, possibly with her in her own mind, not, not protecting him adequately, and that might have been a cause for him leaving the church. I'm just speculating.

Rebecca Gooden [00:43:00] Maybe he, He. He was an Eagle Scout. He went to church as a youth, but not, not very long. He. He was not active for very long. He was the first of my siblings to. To stop going. Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] But it would, but it was hard on your mom.

Rebecca Gooden [00:43:20] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] And so did she tell anyone? Did she tell you?

Rebecca Gooden [00:43:25] She didn't tell anybody.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Okay.

Guest [00:43:28] She.

Rebecca Gooden [00:43:29] She didn't tell anybody. And then. So victim one left. He. Like I said, he was just there for Thanksgiving and he left. He and his family went back home and nothing else was said.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] So you didn't know at this point?

Rebecca Gooden [00:43:42] I had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Okay, but what happens next?

Rebecca Gooden [00:43:46] So then in around May, I guess, my mom.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Wait, can I. Can I just say. Sorry, I'm interrupting, but it's okay. I'm just trying to process this.

Rebecca Gooden [00:43:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] You know it's, it's so. Well, number one, it's just interesting that Sean, your ex husband, could serve that many years in high level positions knowing he was a child abuser and somehow not having that cognitive dissonance really take him out or cause him to break or like we'll probably get to his psychology, but that's just an interesting element of human nature.

Rebecca Gooden [00:44:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] That you could be a child abuser and feel okay serving as a bishop, saying you believe, testifying that the church is true, being in a state presidency, leading youth and all that time you know you're a child abuser and yet you think you believe in the church and you believe God has called you to your position. And then in his mind, Sean either, Sean didn't believe any of it, which I don't, I guess is probably not true because that's a lot to just make up and fake. Then he must believe that God was okay with him being a child abuser, but still being a bishop or stake presidency member. So that's all fascinating.

Matthew Gooden [00:45:08] Just my understanding of it is that because he kept getting all of these callings and promotions in the church that was almost like this divine signal that hey, it's okay, you're forgiven, you're good to keep being you.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] I've heard that so many times that if, if you've done something horrible, but then you, because of this again, this teaching of the gift of discernment, that many people take a calling as a sign that they've been forgiven even if they haven't repented.

Rebecca Gooden [00:45:37] Called as a bishop by the first presidency. Yeah, you must be forgiven. They would have known. Right.

Matthew Gooden [00:45:44] Clearly everyone else is on board with what's going on.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] Including God.

Matthew Gooden [00:45:48] Exactly. If God's okay with it, then who can be against you?

John Dehlin [00:45:51] So I mean that's again a pernicious aspect of this teaching.

Rebecca Gooden [00:45:54] And I'm sure that my brother, victim one, had a lot of that because he, he's very active in the church. And so when Sean was called as a bishop, I'm sure he thought, oh, he must be okay. Must, must really have, must have been taken care of because he's bishop now.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] I mean even before then, y' all were temple marriage, they would have gotten a temple recommend and he would have

Rebecca Gooden [00:46:17] had a worthiness interview, had temple recommends. He.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] So yeah, this, this gift of discernment is a really insidious doctrine. Right. If you really.

Rebecca Gooden [00:46:27] Yeah. And I remember, you know, when he was bishop, he would come home and talk to me, obviously not telling me specifics, but he would Say, you know, it was hard. I found out about abuse, and he said I had to call the hotline. And I was like, oh, that.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] So he reported. He reported perpetrators. Your. Your husband. Ex husband. As bishop. Reported abusers to the hotline as a.

Rebecca Gooden [00:46:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Unrepentant pedophile.

Rebecca Gooden [00:46:53] And I remember we would have talks. I would just be like, that's terrible. How could. How could anyone ever do that to a child? That is just terrible. And he'd be like, I know. Just terrible. That's why. That's why I said there was no indication.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] This is going to be a really hard question, but was he a kind, loving, thoughtful guy by every.

Matthew Gooden [00:47:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] Huh?

Rebecca Gooden [00:47:17] Yes. Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [00:47:18] My first thought when I heard the full extent of everything was my uncles had to have made it up. That was my first thought because. Just because I couldn't picture my dad doing anything like that. I was three when the abuse was taking place. I never had any knowledge of any of it up until it all comes out. And my first thought is, wait a minute. My dad, the bishop, the member of the ST presidency, the guy who raised me all this time, never shown anything towards me that he would be like that. This has to be wrong. There has to be some reason, some angle for why they're trying to frame him for this.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] My first thought, yeah. Which again, goes back to victims not being believed. Right?

Matthew Gooden [00:48:03] Exactly. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [00:48:04] Yeah. Everybody loved him. All the kids loved him. All my. All my kids, friends. Our house was the hangout, Ev, you

John Dehlin [00:48:13] know, and that's one of the misunderstandings is people often associate abus abusers with, like, bad people or not Mormons or, like, people who've left the church or people who are doing bad things. But the truth is, as I understand it, the most likely candidate of a child abuser in your family system is a loved, trusted member of your family system. Yeah, Right. Someone who's kind, someone who's generous, someone

Rebecca Gooden [00:48:50] who's loving and in his. In, you know, not just in my family, but in his family. His nieces and nephews loved him. He was the favorite uncle. They. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] Yeah. So that's. That's all fascinating. And then it's fascinating again that your brothers wanted to keep it quiet for so long and they lived with that trauma for so many years, just keeping that quiet and inside.

Rebecca Gooden [00:49:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] But then also that as soon as your mom finds out, she doesn't just come tell you and, you know, why. Do you know why your mom's kept it quiet? Not to blame her.

Rebecca Gooden [00:49:32] I think we were all. I mean, as we all found out. I just think we didn't even know what to do with it. We didn't. It was. It was so completely foreign to anything that we knew or believed could happen or. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] Yeah.

Guest [00:49:53] So.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Okay. So, yeah, this is just. This is going slow. Helps us just understand how abuse keeps perpetuating in the Mormon Church in such a pervasive way. And these are. All these components contribute, you know? So. So how'd you find out, Rebecca? Is that the next part of the story?

Rebecca Gooden [00:50:15] No. So then in May, my mom calls Sean over because they live right by us at this point. She says they meaning my parents.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:50:26] And two houses and victim two.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] Ok. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:50:28] Oh, are all there.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] Oh, wow.

Rebecca Gooden [00:50:32] So my mom calls Sean and says, can you come over to the house? I need to talk to you. And he's. And he was the bishop at that point. He was her bishop.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] And he was her bishop.

Rebecca Gooden [00:50:43] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:50:44] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] So she's having to call her bishop, her son over to reconcile the abuse.

Rebecca Gooden [00:50:51] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [00:50:52] Wow.

Rebecca Gooden [00:50:53] And she says, this is what, you know, my. My son told me, and is it true? And he says, yes, he admits to it.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Dang. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [00:51:08] And I don't know everything that was said in that conversation. I think that at one point, you know, she said, you have to tell Rebecca. And he said, I can't. I just can't tell her. It'll just destroy everything. She can't ever know. And so at that point, I. I guess they agree to not tell me. I. I don't know. Again, I. I don't know exactly what happened in that conversation. That was in May. And then I didn't find out until August, so a few months after that. And I guess at that point my mom went to him and said, I can't keep this secret anymore. Either you tell her or I will. And that's when he told me.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] So he told you because your mom threatened him that she would tell if. If he didn't.

Rebecca Gooden [00:52:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] Yeah. So what was that like for you to hear that from Sean?

Rebecca Gooden [00:52:14] It was terrible.

John Dehlin [00:52:15] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [00:52:16] It was terrible. Yeah.

Survivors Process Trauma and Disbelief

John Dehlin [00:52:23] Well, anything you want to share about what went through your mind or.

Rebecca Gooden [00:52:26] I just. I. I mean, things started like I was like, oh, so that's why, you know, the kids can't come to the house? Or, you know, just different things started coming up that I was like, you know, I said, is, you know.

Matthew Gooden [00:52:43] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [00:52:44] I united strained relationships with my brothers at times. And I said, you know, is this why. And he said, maybe. Yeah, maybe that's why they didn't want to Come with us or do this with us or, you know, I just kind of went through and I said, what, when did this happen and how, how did it happen and where was I? And you know, I just was trying to go back and think how old our kids were. And yeah, it was just, I think I've explained it when, when it happened. It's like a bomb goes off and you just don't even know what to, what weighs up and what to, how to comprehend it and how to make sense of it all. And

John Dehlin [00:53:29] I mean it's, it's so hard just to succeed and thrive in life. Take the Mormon out of it. Just to like be well, find a mate, get married, have children, have a career, raise them, you know, just like to do that all and stay sane. Like that's all hard, right? Yeah, but then to like have a husband, put a husband through law school while you have young kids and then have his career thrive and be raising healthy, happy kids and, and then being recognized as leaders in the community and in your faith. Like, you know, as I'm thinking about the church's perspective on why they often cover these things up and abusers, why they cover these things up, and even family members or friends of abusers and even victims, why they cover it up is because like, yes, it's probably terrible for a lot of people to keep this stuff inside.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] The alternative is the terrible of it all blowing up like a bomb in your life. Right. So was there ever a part of you that wished that you had just never known and you could have just kept going in the life you were living?

Rebecca Gooden [00:54:44] Yes, My first thing was, I don't want to know this. Everything was going fine. I, without me knowing. I don't want to know. I didn't want. Yes. I didn't want to have to deal with it.

Matthew Gooden [00:54:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] So like when the church or its lawyers or its leaders decide to just cover it up, there's actually some, I don't want to say good reason, but there's some understandable reasons. It doesn't necessarily have to be all perniciously motivated for a child sex abuse cover up to happen in the calculus of the, of the family member or the church leader or even Kurt McConkey lawyer, whatever. In their calculus it can be what's going to be the greater harm, how there's going to be harm either way. How do we do the least amount of harm? The least amount of harm is to just keep this quiet.

Rebecca Gooden [00:55:45] Well, I don't, I don't agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:55:49] I think I'm not saying I believe that. I'm trying.

Rebecca Gooden [00:55:52] Maybe that's what they were saying. You know, looking back, I. And I've had this conversation a lot. I think, I think this is why it's so important that we have mandated reporters. Because when people are going through it, they don't know what's up, what which way is up. They don't. It's so much and so life altering. They. They don't know what to do next. And that's why we have mandated reporters, because they are not in the situation and they can see things clearly and they should be able to know. They're trained to know what to do. Yeah, I wasn't. I had no idea what to do. I had no idea what to do next.

John Dehlin [00:56:36] Yeah. Did you ask how long has my mom known?

Rebecca Gooden [00:56:41] Yeah, I wanted to know how did it come out? How long have people known? What, what's going on? What. And I went to my brother. I said, what do you want me to do? What, what am I supposed to do here now?

Rebecca Gooden [00:56:52] And he said, I never wanted you to know. I want you. I don't want to upset your family. I want you to just go on like you don't know. I, I never wanted it to come out. This was the victim two that hadn't told my mom.

Rebecca Gooden [00:57:07] And when I talked to victim one, I said, what, what do we do at this point? Are you going to go to the police? And he said, no, I'm not going to the police. I don't. It's in the past. It's over.

Rebecca Gooden [00:57:21] That was everybody's feeling. I went to my dad. I said, dad, what do I do with this? Because I didn't know. And he said, it's in the past. It was 20 years ago. Certainly he's been forgiven. He's. He's the bishop. He's, you know, it was 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] That's fascinating again, that the calling leads everyone to believe that God's okay and that repentance didn't need to happen.

Rebecca Gooden [00:57:50] And then this is the other thing that, that Sean told me. I said, didn't you ever tell anybody? Didn't you ever feel like you needed to talk to somebody? And he said, I went to the bishop at the time, 20 years ago. I went to my bishop and I told him what happened. I said, and he didn't do anything. And he said, no. He. We talked about it for a while. He wouldn't let me take the sacrament for a little while and I repented.

John Dehlin [00:58:20] Do you believe that?

Matthew Gooden [00:58:21] No.

Rebecca Gooden [00:58:21] Now I know it's not true.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] Oh, so he lied. He lied because I was going to

Rebecca Gooden [00:58:26] say that that would be a whole nother.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] How do you know that he lied when he said he had.

Rebecca Gooden [00:58:32] Because we. So later in the story.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] Okay, okay, well, I, you find that.

Rebecca Gooden [00:58:36] I mean, I can tell you that now, but yeah, go ahead. So when we were, you know, going through things, my victim number one said, because this was one of the things that Sean kept saying, I did go to the bishop and I repented and I was forgiven.

Rebecca Gooden [00:58:51] And so at one point, victim one said, want to talk to the bishop? I want to know who the bishop was and I want to talk to him. And I need for you to re. Release whatever confidentiality there is so that I can talk to him.

Rebecca Gooden [00:59:04] And I, I said, yeah, that's a great idea. Let's. Let's do that. And Sean said, well, I don't know that I think that's a good idea. I don't want to just, you know, give up all of my confidentiality.

Rebecca Gooden [00:59:16] And I said, you know, that if you don't do this, we're all going to believe that that actually never happened. And he was really quiet and he said, okay, it didn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] I don't see he admitted it. Okay. But at the time he was telling you all that he had repented and that the bishop had forgiven him. And again, just this idea that, I mean, that's the idea. A Mormon bishop allegedly has the power to tell you whether God's forgiven you. So it assumes there's a God. It assumes that God's up there deciding whether or not someone is worthy or not, repented or not. But most importantly, it assumes that some man has the ability to know God's will. As to whether or not a person has been forgiven or not, that's a lot. But if some bishop says he's been forgiven, what is a Mormon, faithful Mormon, to think? What, say it?

Rebecca Gooden [01:00:12] It's true. It must be.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] And so, yeah, what is that? What does a victim do with being told that the perpetrator has been forgiven by his bishop?

Rebecca Gooden [01:00:24] He's been forgiven.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] And what is that? What, what does that mean to the victim?

Rebecca Gooden [01:00:29] That they need to forgive too, right?

John Dehlin [01:00:31] Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:00:32] They need to forgive and move on.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] And as I, with every victim I've talked to, that's a problem. Being pressured and told. There's an expectation to forgive and to forgive quickly and to sweep it under the rug and to keep all this quiet.

Rebecca Gooden [01:00:46] Yeah. And so I'm sure that even, you know, the family didn't Know, and so we weren't telling the victims that they had to forgive and move on, but I'm sure every Sunday, they went to church and heard talks about forgiveness. That was the message that they were getting.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [01:01:02] I will say one very real thing, looking back with the benefit of hindsight, is between this period of when my mom and grandma find out and the arrest, there is. Well, there was a very big strain on my mom's side of the family. And our family, my grandparents, they end up moving from Pennsylvania to Arizona. They take victim number two's family with him. Victim number one was already out there. The excuse was, well, we want to be closer to our other younger grandkids that victim one had already had. So Rebecca's parents move, they move, and again, the relationship between her and her family, I notice, becomes a lot more strained.

Rebecca Gooden [01:01:46] They all stop talking to me.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] To you?

Rebecca Gooden [01:01:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] Why are you punished?

Rebecca Gooden [01:01:52] I don't know.

Matthew Gooden [01:01:53] I think.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Do you have a theory? I mean, this is your own family.

Rebecca Gooden [01:01:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] Why are you getting punished?

Rebecca Gooden [01:01:59] And my kids. I mean, they. My whole family moved to Arizona and stopped talking to me and my kids.

Matthew Gooden [01:02:10] Megan, I think it comes down to that theory of the church teaches, well, just forgive and forget. But how can you forget something like that? You don't want to talk about it with anyone else. So the best thing to do is just remove yourself from the situation. Try to create that separation.

Rebecca Gooden [01:02:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Just to put it out of your mind, maybe.

Rebecca Gooden [01:02:30] I don't know.

Matthew Gooden [01:02:30] I think so. It's that idea of out of sight, out of mind.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] Were they. I mean, so it could be they wanted nothing to do with your husband.

Rebecca Gooden [01:02:42] Yes. I mean, I'm sure that. That.

Matthew Gooden [01:02:44] I think certainly that's the case.

Rebecca Gooden [01:02:45] That was. Certainly they didn't want anything to do with him.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] And so moving away from him, I mean. And then the victims, once this all comes out, they're gonna be. I mean, if. If they're anything like other victims I've talked to, just being around him would be traumatizing. Although it would have been before, too, but it would have been maybe more so after.

Guest 2 [01:03:05] So.

Guest [01:03:05] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:03:06] I mean, the years leading up to that, we would have Thanksgivings together. When we were all together and nobody said anything. We all seemed happy, and we all got along. We went on vacations. Victim one would come, and when he'd visit, would stay at my house. His. His girls would spend the night at my house. I mean, no indication that anything was up.

Ongoing Access to Victims and Family Denial

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Okay. That is just wild, that. And then victim number one, your brother, would bring his children over to spend the night at your house under the roof of his perpetrator?

Rebecca Gooden [01:03:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] I'm not judging anyone. I'm just.

Guest [01:03:43] No.

Rebecca Gooden [01:03:43] And that's the thing that they're so. There's so much into it that we just. You just don't even know. You don't know how you're gonna react. You don't know how you're gonna feel. It's just all a big mess. It was just all a big mess. What was?

John Dehlin [01:03:57] The rapport between your two brothers who were victims and your husband before this all came out, they all got along.

Rebecca Gooden [01:04:05] Oh, we went to Disney together. With all, you know, the whole family went to Disney on a vacation. We all hung out

John Dehlin [01:04:17] again. That's kind of mind blowing, which is why.

Rebecca Gooden [01:04:20] So when he told me in May, he didn't tell me the whole story. It was a very watered down version of things that happened. And I asked some questions and he lied. So basically it was a watered down version. It was over. Nobody in my family wanted anything to come from it. They all wanted us to just move on and continue with life. Was, you know, there was somewhere I was going with this. I forget now.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] Well, how did you. Okay, so you have this conversation with Sean. What did you decide you were going to do?

Rebecca Gooden [01:05:01] So I.

John Dehlin [01:05:03] How did you decide to handle it?

Rebecca Gooden [01:05:04] So at first I was like, I don't even know what to do. Do I. Do I stay? Do I go? But then I am in a situation where I can't provide for myself and my kids. Sean's parents were living in an apartment in our basement. And so not only was it my kids, but it was his mom that I had to worry about taking care of. I couldn't support or provide. I didn't feel like I had anywhere that I could go. And I wanted to protect my kids. I never wanted them to know this about their dad. I. And so I just. So I stayed. I didn't, you know, I thought, we'll just see what happens.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] Did you think of it as being trapped? Did you think of it as love can. Love in the atonement can conquer all this?

Rebecca Gooden [01:05:56] It was a real wrestle in my mind because I, you know, because he kept saying that he had been forgiven. And so I kept, you know, that. So that was the thing in my mind. He's been forgiven. It's. It was in the past. It. He's. Nothing else has ever happened again. And also, I didn't feel like I. I had a choice. I said, you know, what is. What's the best for me and my Kids, I can leave and. And I looked at what my life would look like if I left, or I can stay and know, not trust him and not have all these feelings for him. But my kids were, you know, in a safe place and, you know.

John Dehlin [01:06:40] What do you mean your kids were in a safe place?

Rebecca Gooden [01:06:42] I mean, financially, they were being taken care of.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Emotionally, their temporal needs met.

Rebecca Gooden [01:06:47] Yeah. And emotional. I mean, they. We had talked about eternal families and, you know, what. What does that mean when your parents get divorced? And the kids. My kids all loved their dad. I mean, he was a good dad.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] Remind me how many total kids?

Rebecca Gooden [01:07:03] Four.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Four kids. Okay, so that all makes sense of just like, let's not blow it up.

Rebecca Gooden [01:07:12] Especially when my family was saying, it's in the past. We didn't want you to know clearly by their actions.

John Dehlin [01:07:19] Meaning the victims and my.

Rebecca Gooden [01:07:22] The victims and my dad.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:07:23] My mom didn't say much. She was still trying to work out her own thoughts and.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] But your dad was like, let it go.

Rebecca Gooden [01:07:31] We should forgive. We should move on. And the victims had always acted like they were moving on. They had. Had kept a relationship with him and. And they didn't want me to. You know, they. I said, are you going to go to the police? And they said, no, it was 20 years ago. We're not going to the police. We're not.

Matthew Gooden [01:07:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] Okay, so what does that do for

Guest [01:07:58] you

John Dehlin [01:08:00] internally to stay with Sean and try to just put it in the past?

Rebecca Gooden [01:08:07] I was an anxious mess.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Was it hard?

Rebecca Gooden [01:08:09] It was terrible.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] What were the. What were the harsh parts? If you want to share.

Rebecca Gooden [01:08:13] I mean, I. I couldn't trust him. I didn't. And I feel like I had to, like, pay attention. Like, you know, he was the bishop, and so he was like, well, there's a camp out. We're going to go on. I said, you're not going on a campout. You. You can't go and be with children. You. You did this 20 years ago. You can't. You know, so I felt like I had to police because now I knew this information and I didn't want it to happen again. I didn't want anyone else to be a victim or, you know, and on one side, in my mind, I'm like, it's happened 20 years ago.

Rebecca Gooden [01:08:45] It's. It's over. It doesn't happen again. But in the other side, I'm like, but what. What if it did What? You know, I know all of these. This information about people that abuse, that they abuse again. What. What if. What if it happens again?

John Dehlin [01:08:59] And yeah, because I've. I don't think I've ever heard of a child abuser that abuses just kind of one time and then never abuses again.

Rebecca Gooden [01:09:06] And so there was this internal conflict constantly.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] And you knew that. That child abusers were most often repeat offenders and most often incurable, as I understand it. You knew that.

Rebecca Gooden [01:09:19] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] So that. Okay, so you would have been.

Rebecca Gooden [01:09:21] And I said that to him. I said, this isn't. You know, are you sure? It just happened once. There. There was nobody else. There's no one else going to come out. And he's like, no. I said, why. Why are you different? Why would you have just done it this one time and it never happened again? And he said, because I knew that I would have lost my family. I didn't want that to happen. And so I just knew I. It could never happen again. And I didn't know the extent. I mean, the. The charges were sodomy, and. And none of that was. He didn't tell me that. That that's what had happened. You know, he said they were games. They'd been playing games that were inappropriate and. But I didn't know the full extent of the abuse.

John Dehlin [01:10:07] It was worse than you had.

Rebecca Gooden [01:10:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Come to understand. It was. It sounds like it was horrific.

Rebecca Gooden [01:10:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] Yeah. Yeah. Because I was gonna say there is. You know, people believe all sorts of things. They believe in UFOs and alien abductions and. And, you know, so there is a leap you could make in your mind, which is that God's all powerful, Jesus is all powerful, and the atonement, you know, the atonement can. Is super powerful, and it can fix this, too. So I'm just going to trust him that he'll never do it again and have faith that the Lord will take care of this. Jesus's atonement made this. All right, but you didn't. You didn't draw those conclusions.

Rebecca Gooden [01:10:56] No, I was. Again, I. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [01:11:04] But I mean, why. It sounds like you. I mean, data would say, don't draw those conclusions, that the atonement's more powerful than all this. So I think that's the technically right or accurate or most probable conclusion to draw. And so I think it's probably good that you didn't draw that conclusion. Yeah, but I'm wondering if, in your mind, you know, why it. Was it just because the data that you were. You were informed about the data?

Rebecca Gooden [01:11:31] I mean, like I said, I think I was. This is why I was so anxious, because I thought, you know, on one hand he's telling me that he had talked to this bishop and he had repented and it never happened again. And I wanted to believe that I. Because I wanted our family to stay as it was.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:11:47] And I had all of this information from my family that, you know, the are. They had kept coming around and so that pointed to. That it wasn't the horrific details that it actually was. And. But then on the other hand, I would hear these other stories and think, well, that, you know, that doesn't make sense. It should. Abuse still happens and they, they don't get better. And so I was just this.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] Yeah, it wasn't adding up.

Rebecca Gooden [01:12:15] Constant conflict inside of me.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] I don't know if you know the answer to this question, but it's something I'll probably never look into. But there's a part of me that is just super curious. Did he ever explain to you what led to him having that desire, that attraction, that interest, like how it happened?

Rebecca Gooden [01:12:35] So I asked him, I said what happened? And he said, when he was younger, he was abused and it was at a scout camp, and it was games that they played that were inappropriate, that got out of hand. But that, that's what used to happen on outings when he was at scout camp. And so then when he was.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Wait, was he Mormon? A Mormon boy?

Rebecca Gooden [01:12:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:55] And were these Mormon scout camps?

Rebecca Gooden [01:12:57] Probably.

John Dehlin [01:12:58] Do you have a set? Where, where did he grow up? In Kansas. In Kansas.

Matthew Gooden [01:13:04] His parents were in the military, so they moved around quite a bit while he was growing up.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] Okay, so in his Mormon Boy Scout experiences as a child, probably in the 80s, right?

Matthew Gooden [01:13:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:17] He experienced Mormon related abuse by a leader or just by youth.

Rebecca Gooden [01:13:24] Did he say older boys?

John Dehlin [01:13:27] Older boys.

Rebecca Gooden [01:13:27] Not a leader, but older than boys that were older than him.

John Dehlin [01:13:31] So there was. And I've heard that before, like sexual experimentation amongst Boy Scouts. Mormon Boy Scouts.

Guest 3 [01:13:38] So.

John Dehlin [01:13:38] Okay, keep going.

Rebecca Gooden [01:13:39] So he remembered, he said, and so when we. When I was camping with your brothers, that's just. I just went back and that's the kind of thing that we did on campouts when I was younger. And it just happened with your brothers.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] Hmm. And what's different about that is he's a man, he's a married man at that point. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [01:14:04] And I said, was there ever any, you know, I asked certain questions was, did this, did this happen?

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Or graphic stuff?

Rebecca Gooden [01:14:13] And he said, no, that did not happen.

John Dehlin [01:14:16] So he made it sound very benign.

Rebecca Gooden [01:14:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:19] Okay. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:14:21] Which still was disgusting to me. But I thought, I. I don't know. I didn't know what to do.

Guest [01:14:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] Yeah. So his explanations didn't make you feel better? Even though they were incomplete. Even the benign explanations who that were whitewashed. He didn't convince you that things were okay?

Matthew Gooden [01:14:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Okay. Thanks for sharing all this. This is hard stuff. So. So you go to. Into a mode of just not knowing what to do. Your family moves away. He's staying bishop.

Rebecca Gooden [01:14:55] The family hasn't moved yet.

John Dehlin [01:14:56] Okay. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:14:57] Everyone's still there. We're just kind of going along. And then my mom I guess decides that she has to tell the stake

John Dehlin [01:15:07] president his last name is Hence Hence. And we have a, we have. So we have a photo of him here and you know, a Mormon stories. We like to sort of have the mantra of systems, not people. So I don't know that I'm not sure we'd be mentioning Rhett hence his name if it weren't for the fact that he was recently called an area authority and that he was charged with, with failure to report and that the Mormon church would have, I don't know, the gumption to take a stake president that was likely involved in a cover up and was charged with, you know, failure to report and then somehow make him an area authority.

Church Leadership's Response to the Abuse

John Dehlin [01:16:00] Like that just seems really, I'll just say bold. So the purpose isn't to really call anyone out or shame anyone. It's just to say come on church, like is this really the way to go? And you know, and to let the

Rebecca Gooden [01:16:16] members know that are sustaining him. What the kind of person they're sustaining. Yeah, because their leader is.

John Dehlin [01:16:24] He's in a pretty significant position of power and authority. So this is a, this is Rhett Hencey. Anything you want to say about his background or what type of stake president he was before all this happened?

Rebecca Gooden [01:16:38] So when Sean was in the stake presidency, he was the, the secretary and so our families were friends. We were together a lot. Sean and Rhett were friends.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] Oh wait, it looks like he's an employee at Microsoft.

Rebecca Gooden [01:16:57] I don't know. He was some. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] The profile says AI and copilot, Business solutions specialist at Microsoft. So I used to work at Microsoft.

Rebecca Gooden [01:17:11] He worked for a consulting company.

John Dehlin [01:17:13] Yeah. So probably in tech. Sounds like.

Rebecca Gooden [01:17:17] I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [01:17:18] Tech guy.

Rebecca Gooden [01:17:19] I don't know what he did.

John Dehlin [01:17:20] Okay. Yeah, yeah, he, I mean he does AI stuff.

Rebecca Gooden [01:17:26] They had kids, our kids age. We got together with him a lot. I was the. I led girls camp and his wife did all the food and he would come up and I mean they were, they were Friends. We were friends.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] Okay. You were friends. Yeah. Did stuff together. Okay. Okay. So your mom decides to talk to President Heny. Heny. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:17:50] And so she goes, makes an appointment. She goes and talks to him and she says, I need to tell you what, what I know.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] And this is six years ago, 2020 September.

Rebecca Gooden [01:18:01] Whenever I have on the.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] Yeah, that's what I'm reading from, losing

Rebecca Gooden [01:18:04] track of the day.

John Dehlin [01:18:05] I'm just letting people know this is about six years ago.

Rebecca Gooden [01:18:07] So she goes to hencey and she says, I need to tell you this information, what I know. And in the course of the conversation. And I asked my mom recently what she wanted me to say, if there was anything she wanted me to say about this conversation. And she said that she felt better talking to him, that he was, you know, he listened, that he told her that he had a close family member who was also a victim of sexual abuse. And so he understood the. How hard it was and all the different complexities and he wanted to, you know, help our family work through it.

John Dehlin [01:18:48] And so your mom left that meeting and he was her stake president and. And she left that meeting feeling what?

Rebecca Gooden [01:18:57] Feeling? I think a bit of relief, like maybe he was going to be helpful.

John Dehlin [01:19:02] And then you write what about their relationship?

Rebecca Gooden [01:19:05] He never talked to her again.

John Dehlin [01:19:07] So that's like what?

Rebecca Gooden [01:19:09] He never followed up. He never asked if she was okay. He never, not one more conversation did they have.

Matthew Gooden [01:19:17] And that's been right around that time also that they were getting ready to leave.

Rebecca Gooden [01:19:21] No, they were there for.

Matthew Gooden [01:19:23] Because I remember I helped them. Packing up to move shortly after I came back from my mission.

Rebecca Gooden [01:19:30] They moved in the summer, so it was. So if she told him in the fall, they didn't move until the following summer. So there were several months.

Matthew Gooden [01:19:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] Well, I think here's what I'll just say. When it was discovered through the AP reporting that the church had a hotline and that the hotline was fielded by the church's law firm, Kurt McConkey and that or you know, and that the questions that the people fielding the hotline would ask were all about protecting the church and its liability. And there was literally not one question about the victims and the welfare of the victims, et cetera.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] That established what we've all come to understand since then is that the church generally has not ever really cared about victims, about their well being, about getting them help, about getting them support, possibly because helping the victims might contribute to potential liability. Like, I don't know. Because I don't think the church is just not caring about People, I mean, the church often pays for people's mental health in normal circumstances.

John Dehlin [01:20:48] But regardless of exactly when the stake president, regardless of when your parents moved, it kind of doesn't matter for two reasons. One is the point is it's your impression and your mom's impression that he never really followed up. Correct?

Rebecca Gooden [01:21:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] And then it's also consistent with what we understand the church's history has been. It's that the victims are really not. Their welfare is not really a major consideration and there's not really any established guidelines historically for the church leader, Mormon church leaders, to really provide any care to victims. Correct?

Rebecca Gooden [01:21:28] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:21:28] So that. I don't mean to just.

Matthew Gooden [01:21:30] No, I think you're completely right with that.

John Dehlin [01:21:32] Okay, so. So that's, you know. So was it Hensy that called your ex husband to be bishop in the first place?

Guest 3 [01:21:42] No.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] Or was it a previous stake president?

Rebecca Gooden [01:21:43] No, it was a previous stake president called and then while Sean was the bishop, they reorganized the stake presidency and hence he was put in.

John Dehlin [01:21:51] Okay. So as we're calling out mistakes the church made to help the church get better and to focus on systems, your husband should have never been called as a bishop or as a stake presidency member or whatever. Right. In the first place. But then, you know, you're the stake president. Hencey, once he found out, he should have shown better care to your. A member of his. I guess they were all. Were your brothers a member of his stake as well.

Rebecca Gooden [01:22:25] So victim two, that was not at all active. Was. But he had never gone to church, so technically he was a member of his stake.

John Dehlin [01:22:33] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:22:33] Victim one was in Arizona.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] Okay. Okay. Okay. So not. Not care for the victims is the next thing to talk about the mandatory reporting laws in Pennsylvania? Is that sure. Okay. Because then immediately chances are that Hencey called the hotline. That would have been. He. You're saying he did call the hotline?

Rebecca Gooden [01:23:00] He did, yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:01] Do you know what his. How would you know what the conversation would have been like?

Rebecca Gooden [01:23:05] So he. So he talked to my mom and then shortly thereafter he called and asked Sean to come meet with him in his office.

John Dehlin [01:23:12] Okay, what happened?

Rebecca Gooden [01:23:13] So Sean and I both went up and talked to him. And? Well, he had Sean talk to him first. And from what Sean told me, he said, you know, this is about the abuse. This is what I've heard. Is this true? Sean said yes. And he said, we're going to release you as bishop.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] That's good.

Rebecca Gooden [01:23:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] So he didn't, he didn't cover up and keep the guy's bishop. That's that's better than I've heard sometimes, right?

Guest [01:23:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:23:43] So after they talked about everything, they called me and I came in and he, Rhett said, do you have any questions? And I said, I want to know if Sean told you the same version of events that my brothers told you because I wanted to make sure it was accurate. And Rhett said yes.

Rebecca Gooden [01:24:04] I guess I should have asked what that version was. I. I didn't. I assumed that again, that I was being told the truth. So at this point, Rhett knows because my brothers told Rhett everything that had happened and Sean told everything that had happened because the stories matched.

Rebecca Gooden [01:24:24] So Rhett knew how terrible it was. I did not, because I just said, do the stories match? And when he said yes, I, I'm still assuming it's the watered down version of events, but he said, yes, they match.

Rebecca Gooden [01:24:40] And I said, he said, is there anything that, that you need? I said, I don't want my kids to know this is terrible as it is. I. I don't want them to get involved in this at all. And he said, well, I don't think that there's any reason for anybody to.

Rebecca Gooden [01:24:55] That he had said that he had talked to the, he'd called the hotline and nobody else needed to know anything but that Sean was going to be released as present as bishop.

John Dehlin [01:25:07] How many years had Sean served as bishop?

Rebecca Gooden [01:25:09] At this point, I feel like it was close to five, because it was like he's just going to be released and it'll look like it's close to the end of his time and it's not going to cause any questions.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] So when he was released, there was no like he's being released for doing something bad. No, no, he's being punished. He's dangerous, he's a threat. Stay away. He's just quietly released as if it was a normal thing.

Rebecca Gooden [01:25:37] And it was Covid. So we weren't really going to church there. You know, most people weren't going to church. And yeah, he was just. He was released.

John Dehlin [01:25:45] Okay.

Matthew Gooden [01:25:46] New bishop was on it. When it all goes down is again because of the pandemic. I'm back at home from BYU and we're just all kind of at my parents place and my dad tells us, hey, I know we're doing sacrament at home because of the pandemic. I just want you to know I'm in the process of repenting of something that happened long ago. Don't need to give you any of the specifics, but you and your brother, you have to take care of the sacrament, and I won't be participating in it at that time because that would have been November, so I believe he would have already been excommunicated at that point. Correct.

Sean Gooden Excommunicated and Charged

Rebecca Gooden [01:26:22] He was excommunicated in November, around that

Matthew Gooden [01:26:24] time that he would have been excommunicated. All that we knew was, I'm repenting of something. It happened long ago, but I feel like I need to take extra steps to make sure that I'm actually repented of it. And again, my thought to it is, well, whatever it is, that couldn't have been that bad was bishops like president, all these other things, Maybe he's just got some post calling guilt that he felt he had to get off his chest, and it's going to be a couple of weeks and everything will be back to normal.

John Dehlin [01:26:51] So you didn't know he had been excommunicated?

Matthew Gooden [01:26:54] No, I didn't know about that until two years later.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] Okay. Okay. So y' all decided not to tell the kids?

Rebecca Gooden [01:27:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] Okay. And so how long after he was released as bishop was he excommunicated?

Rebecca Gooden [01:27:09] Maybe a month. Shortly wasn't long.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:27:12] They released him and then had the court and he was excommunicated. And

John Dehlin [01:27:19] yeah, so I've heard of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cases of abusers not being excommunicated. So I don't know if ever it's appropriate for me to say good job to hencey or the church, but, like, I'm. I'm glad they excommunicated him.

Rebecca Gooden [01:27:37] Yeah. And I remember talking to my brother, victim one, afterwards, and he said, you know, I'm surprised he was excommunicated because hence he said if he came forward and told the truth, he probably wouldn't be. Which again, in my mind, leads that it wasn't that bad because he wasn't even gonna. They didn't even think he was gonna be excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:27:57] Wait, hence he said that if he had just come clean.

Rebecca Gooden [01:28:01] My. My brother told me that in his conversation because hence, he reached out to my brother for a statement. He victim one or two, he tried to reach out to both, but victim two wouldn't talk to him. Victim one, Okay. I think, sent a letter. I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [01:28:14] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:28:15] And in their conversations, to my understanding, Hencey told Victim 1 that there's a good chance that he wouldn't even be excommunicated if he, you know, came forward and told the truth. And because it was so long ago, and so my brother said, so I'm worried that he didn't tell the Truth. And I said, well, one of the things I did ask Kensi was if all of the stories matched up. And he told me they did. And so victim one said, well, I'm glad that he told the truth and that he was ex. I don't know if he said he was glad he was excommunicated, but.

John Dehlin [01:28:50] So did your brother, victim one, ever talk to Hensy and tell Hensi in detail about the abuse so that Hensi could know all the details of the abuse?

Rebecca Gooden [01:29:03] Yes. My understanding is after my mom talked to Hencey, Hensi reached out to my brother to ask what happened.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] But. But if, hence, he knew the details of how horrific the abuse was, why in the world would he tell a victim who had experienced horrific abuse that if he had just confessed it earlier, he would have never been excommunicated for the horrific abuse?

Rebecca Gooden [01:29:33] I don't know. I think that he said that if he, at this time, because it had been so long ago, that if he came clean, that they probably wouldn't at that time excommunicate him.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] That's such a weird message because it basically says if you're successful at covering something up and a lot of time goes by, but then you confess it proactively before you get caught, no harm, no foul. Yeah, but if. But, Or, Or. Or not. No harm, no foul. But, like, it's not as big of a deal, but if. If he had reported it when it happened, surely he would have been excommunicated. Or maybe not.

Rebecca Gooden [01:30:16] I have no idea.

John Dehlin [01:30:17] That's such a weird message that somehow hiding it and hiding it plus time. But then proactive confession means forgiveness of that excommunication. Like, I don't know how the mat. I mean, it's. It's leadership roulette. Right, but absolutely. That's interesting. That's interesting. It's also interesting you tell a victim that. Yeah, I wonder how your brother one felt hearing that from a stake president.

Rebecca Gooden [01:30:46] Yeah. And there wasn't a lot of contact between me and my family at this point. So I, you know, I didn't get into a lot of it, but again, that, in my mind, that was more evidence that, you know, it was. It wasn't that bad that it was being taken care of. He, you know, everybody that needed to know knew they were working through it all.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:31:06] They just needed to move on.

John Dehlin [01:31:10] Yeah. So you were concerned that the story. You're the. The story that Sean told the stake president wasn't the full story, but if victim one told the stake president the full story, then at some Point. The stake president did hear the full story, right?

Rebecca Gooden [01:31:24] The stake president knew the whole story?

John Dehlin [01:31:26] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So Sean gets excommunicated, but that's kept from the children and it's kept from the ward. They just think the bishop's been released, correct?

Rebecca Gooden [01:31:39] Yes. And the what Again, my understanding was that when the new bishop was called, he was told, Sean has been excommunicated. But it was something that happened many years ago. It's not something that affects it all now. It has nothing to do with anything going on now. You don't need to worry about it. It was in the past. He didn't tell him why he was excommunicated. And he said if anyone, he didn't want it to be a thing. He didn't want it to be, you know, the source of any gossip. And so if anybody came to ask him, his phrase was, I want you to just put a blanket on it, cover it up.

John Dehlin [01:32:22] That's what Hensy told the new bishop.

Rebecca Gooden [01:32:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:26] That feels cover up ish to me.

Rebecca Gooden [01:32:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] But also, you know, we've known since Benji Schwimmer's interviewed 15 years ago or whatever that the church has this annotation system where they have the ability to annotate your record with, with, you know, in the past with Benji Schwimmer, you know, the winner of so youo Think youk Could Dance. His record was annotated with being gay and not even with having practiced being gay. He said the bishop just found out he had feelings of being gay and that was enough to get his record annotated.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] So you know, that's, we know the system exists and that at least historically, gay people have been flagged again not for behaving in gay ways, but simply for confessing same sex attraction. Surely your, your ex husband, excommunicated former bishop, child abuser is going to have his record annotated with child abuser. But what you're saying is it wasn't or if it was. Well, when you're future bishop didn't have access to it.

Rebecca Gooden [01:33:31] I was going to say when you're excommunicated, do you, is there a record that the bishop has or are you just not a member?

John Dehlin [01:33:36] I mean, I don't, I don't. I mean, yeah, there is going to be a record. His record will still stay. Yeah, for sure. He's still going to show up on the records of the church as, as in the home.

Rebecca Gooden [01:33:50] Because he didn't show up. I remember going on lds.org and he didn't, you know, like his picture wasn't there anymore.

John Dehlin [01:33:59] There's the church. Never.

Rebecca Gooden [01:34:02] I don't think anyone's record keeps track of him. Yeah, but I don't know that if his. I don't know if after you're excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] That's interesting. If there's no. That's interesting. So if there's no member record showing up in LDS tools, there's no annotation to review. That's interesting because nobody knew. Interesting. So that's interesting that the annotation. If you're excommunicated, the annotation system's thrown out the window in terms of protecting members. And then the fact that Hency and he was probably counseled by Kurt McConkey in the church to do this, told everyone this is nothing you need to worry about. It's in the past. Didn't explain what happened. That is a cover up. Hence he would be following orders by the attorneys in the church. So it's, you know, he's basically doing what he's told. But the, you know, a huge problem is that leaves the entire ward and state wards and stake and family members potentially vulnerable to a repeat offending child predator.

Rebecca Gooden [01:35:12] Because the whole stake knew and loved and trusted him.

Matthew Gooden [01:35:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:17] And they had no reason not to.

Rebecca Gooden [01:35:19] No. And he was encouraged to because in Sean's mind he wanted to be re baptized at some point. And so he continued going to church. And I remember one Sunday the husband of the primary president came up to him and said, we're short a teacher. Will you come in seven primary, please?

John Dehlin [01:35:39] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:35:40] And he said no, but that just shows that he had complete access to everybody in the ward.

John Dehlin [01:35:47] Yeah. So clearly. And this fits with the, so current first presidency member D. Todd Christofferson has a brother named Wade Christofferson who was also a child abuser who, you know, he was excommunicated but rebaptized. None of the members or even family members, ward members, family members, stake members were told that he was a child abuser. They were all told it was an affair. Did you know, did you hear the story?

Rebecca Gooden [01:36:15] I, I know that there's a story. I haven't heard all the details.

John Dehlin [01:36:18] Yeah. So Wade Kristofferson excommunicated for child abuse. All the ward members and bishop stake members were told it was an affair, not child abuse. He was excommunicated, but as I understand it, rebaptized within a year or two. And again, his brother is now. Was a general authority then and is now in the first presidency and is an apostle. He was Quickly, as I understand it, rebaptized and moves and then ends up in a bishopric again.

John Dehlin [01:36:49] And in his case, he did have a trail of child abuse along the way, but the annotation never followed him, such that because it was kept quiet and because the annotation system didn't follow him, it was expunged. He was left, he left a trail of child abuse in his wake. And there's the big question of how much did apostle and First Presidency member now D. Todd Christofferson, how much did he know and when did he know it?

John Dehlin [01:37:20] But that's cover up and this is a cover up. And so while at the one hand, you know, we have to acknowledge that hencey is just following the orders of attorneys Curt McConkie and the church, he is sitting there knowing that this man is a child abuser.

John Dehlin [01:37:42] And when he is telling the subsequent bishop, these are not the George you're looking for, there's nothing to worry about. And when he is making sure, when he's telling the future bishop to put a blanket on it whenever anyone brings this up, and when he's consciously making sure that he establishes an environment where nobody knows that this child abuser has history of child abuse, he's sitting there in his mind saying, I'm doing a cover up for the church. I mean, I don't know what else he could think. I mean he could think that it's justified that the attorney, because of his

Stake President Hensy's Accountability and Cover-Up

Rebecca Gooden [01:38:20] family member who had also been through this, he absolutely knew it was a cover up and he absolutely knew what a mandatory reporter was.

John Dehlin [01:38:27] Okay, and we'll get to that next. But my point is, is that I'm trying to figure out how much accountability Heny would have. And surely he knew that by not letting anyone know that a child abuser was in their midst and by telling a the future bishop to put a blanket on any talk, he would potentially be putting future victims at risk. I would. Unless again, he just had this blind faith in God, in the atonement that can overcome all child abuse, future child abuse, which is hard to believe, so he is doing the church's bidding. He is, I think.

Matthew Gooden [01:39:09] And I think the thing that's most concerning about this, to me at least, is I have a younger brother who at the time would have been 15 when hence he found out, which is right around the same age of my uncles when they were abused. And because there's this cover up, there's no reporting, there's no check in on my brother, no one asks him if anything's happened. To him, if anything else has gone on. And again, this idea that abusers tend to repeat their abuse, if not to the same victim, to other victims, there's a very real chance that something could have happened there.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Did Hensy ever ask you if there. There was. If. If there was abuse in the home?

Rebecca Gooden [01:39:49] Hensi never spoke to me again. What, after? No. So we met with Hensi that day, and then Shawn was excommunicated. And I went up to the church. Sean wanted me to go with him, but he. He did not want me to go into the court. So I go up to the church. I'm sitting outside.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] That's a red flag.

Rebecca Gooden [01:40:12] They have the court. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] I mean, and then you're not allowed in.

Rebecca Gooden [01:40:16] I mean, it wasn't that I wasn't allowed. He just said, I'd rather you not come in. So, yeah, that's. I mean, looking back, I should have

John Dehlin [01:40:24] known because he might be hiding stuff.

Guest 3 [01:40:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:26] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:40:28] And he came out and said that he was. Had been excommunicated, and I lost it. I was a basket case because in my mind, I just. You know, when you're an active member of the church and your husband is excommunicated, that. That's a big. That's your whole eternity. Right. And so I was a basket case.

John Dehlin [01:40:49] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:40:50] And we went in afterwards to. He said, oh, I've got one other question I need to ask. So he. Sean and I went in, and it was just Sean and I and Rhett. And he. I think he offered to give. At some point, Shawna got a blessing. They gave Shawn a blessing of comfort because, you know, this was going to be hard for him. But never did they offer to do anything for me. No comfort for me in any way. And I was sobbing. He never said anything to me. And then that was the last time I spoke to Rhett.

Guest 3 [01:41:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:27] So that's another huge thing is how can, like, the stake president is like a super bishop. You're. He's. He is obligated to provide pastoral care to the members of his stake. So, like, it's horrible that he did that to your mom, but now he's doing this to you. Like, he. He never talks to you again as a member of his stake.

Rebecca Gooden [01:41:50] And he's the only one who knew what I was going through.

John Dehlin [01:41:53] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [01:41:53] I mean, he didn't tell our bishop. So our bishop couldn't comfort or help our family in any way. Our bishop couldn't check in on us and make sure that my children were safe because he didn't know Rhett was the only one who knew what was happening.

John Dehlin [01:42:08] I mean, that's just. That's just inhumane that the church. I mean, I. It has to be legal. It has to be that, like the lawyers are saying to hencey your stake president, you can't talk to these family members anymore because anything you say can and will be used against you if this comes out.

Rebecca Gooden [01:42:30] And they should have released him. They should have released him and put somebody in place who could have helped us.

John Dehlin [01:42:35] Released you or. Yeah, or both. I mean, he could have stayed in,

Rebecca Gooden [01:42:39] but assigned someone because our family was. It was terrible. It was the worst. The worst time of our life and we had nobody. My family had gone the hence. He wouldn't talk to us. No one in our ward knew what was happening was terrible. We needed help and there was nobody.

John Dehlin [01:42:59] And this is the time in all your life, this is the time you needed the most help from the church?

Rebecca Gooden [01:43:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:06] How much tithing do you think you'd paid to the church by this point in your life?

Rebecca Gooden [01:43:09] A lot.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] Tens of thousands.

Rebecca Gooden [01:43:11] Oh, yeah. Sean was. Sean was a good lawyer, so maybe. And we were always good tithe pairs,

John Dehlin [01:43:19] so maybe over a hundred thousand dollars in tithing.

Matthew Gooden [01:43:21] Well, that had. Making six figures since 2008. 2009.

Rebecca Gooden [01:43:25] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [01:43:26] So a decade of six figures is going to be under grand by the end of it all.

John Dehlin [01:43:30] Yeah. So you had paid the church over 100 grand by this point, given your life to the church, Served in lots of callings?

Rebecca Gooden [01:43:38] Devoted my entire life to the church. My entire life.

John Dehlin [01:43:42] Did you serve in callings? Besides being a mom and doing other things, what were some of your callings?

Rebecca Gooden [01:43:49] Oh, I was in young women's. I was a camp leader. I was in Relief Society presidencies. I did all this stuff.

John Dehlin [01:43:59] So you had literally, by this point. How old are you?

Rebecca Gooden [01:44:03] Oh, what year was it?

John Dehlin [01:44:04] Six years ago?

Rebecca Gooden [01:44:06] I'm 50 now, so 40.

John Dehlin [01:44:08] You're 44. You'd given your whole life to the church, had four kids, done everything the church asks you to do. And then when your family's in its most perilous state ever, nothing your bishop

Rebecca Gooden [01:44:20] can't know, the bishop doesn't know. And so the bishop, we had the best. He was a really good bishop. And after Sean was arrested and things started coming out, he was our biggest support. He was a wonder. He was wonderful. But before that, he didn't know. He had no idea.

John Dehlin [01:44:37] And so you had given your whole life to the church, and in the moment that you needed the church, you had given your whole life and six figures worth of income to the church. And in the one moment that you needed the church most, what happened?

Rebecca Gooden [01:44:52] They abandoned us.

Matthew Gooden [01:44:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:56] The stake presidents president. Hence he abandoned you.

Rebecca Gooden [01:44:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:59] And I'm guessing on the one hand he was doing what he was told by the attorneys. On the other hand he would have to have his conscience of I'm abandoning this woman in this family.

Rebecca Gooden [01:45:08] You think?

John Dehlin [01:45:09] Right.

Rebecca Gooden [01:45:10] Because you know, they were our friends too. It wasn't just.

John Dehlin [01:45:14] Oh, and they were friends.

Rebecca Gooden [01:45:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:16] Yeah. I'm so sorry.

Rebecca Gooden [01:45:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:21] So totally abandoned by your stake president and the church. And then let's talk about the, the laws. So I, I'm not a lawyer. I, I, I'm not good with this type of stuff. But my understanding is in Pennsylvania, clergy are mandated reporters. I can put this up on the screen. Clergy are mandated reporters and are required to report suspected child abuse if they have reasonable cause to suspect that a child is a victim of child abuse. And that includes clergymen. What, so what, what is part of what's complicated about this is this, was your brothers being abused in Virginia. Right. A couple decades prior. So, so I, I, so the question then becomes what is Hensi required by law to report? Is he a mandatory reporter to report the confession of a man who abused in a different state 20 years earlier?

Mandatory Reporting Failures and Legal Context

Rebecca Gooden [01:46:35] So my understanding, and I'm not a lawyer, I was married to a lawyer that explained this to me because the victims were adults. Had the victims come forward and said this happened to me when I was a child.

Rebecca Gooden [01:46:52] A mandated reporter does not have to go to the police because the victim is an adult and can go to the police for themselves. The difference is according to Pennsylvania, if a mandated reporter finds out that there is a person who has just been suspected of abuse, if they have access, still have access to children, then that has to be reported.

Rebecca Gooden [01:47:19] And Sean clearly had access to children. He had access to my children that were still living at home. He had had con continual access to everyone's children in the stake. And he was, had been incur, he was being encouraged by Rhett to continue to go to church, which would mean he would have continued access to children.

John Dehlin [01:47:42] And how long did your ex husband Sean continue to attend church with stake president Hennessy's permission?

Rebecca Gooden [01:47:52] It was almost two years.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] So stake President Hencey and the Mormon Church allow a known child abuser to, to come to church and interact with with all complete board members and children

Rebecca Gooden [01:48:09] and not tell anybody.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] He could roam the halls of the chapel during sacrament meeting.

Rebecca Gooden [01:48:13] He could volunteer in primary completely unsupervised

John Dehlin [01:48:17] like they didn't give him callings because he's excommunicated.

Rebecca Gooden [01:48:20] But they asked him to volunteer. I mean, like I said, they. He was asked to go and fill

John Dehlin [01:48:25] in for primary teachers and he would say no.

Rebecca Gooden [01:48:28] Yes, but.

John Dehlin [01:48:30] Yeah, but he could have easily said yes.

Rebecca Gooden [01:48:34] Lord. Halloween parties. I mean, everything He.

John Dehlin [01:48:37] Yeah. So hence he allowed this for two years, which means the church and its lawyers allowed this for two years. And I'll just share the statute that, that Julia found. So it talks about, I think this is like the, the, the Pennsylvania statute, and it mentions willful failure to report an individual suspected of child abuse while the person knows or has a reasonable cause to suspect that the same individual continues to have direct contact with children. So the way I'm reading that statute is that hencey should have reported Sean to the police.

Rebecca Gooden [01:49:25] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] And he probably was counseled. I don't know if he was counseled not to by Curt McConkey or counseled that he didn't have to. But from the hundreds and hundreds of victims that I've Talked to, Curt McConkey's base recommendation is to tell people they don't have to report and, or to give people the impression that they shouldn't report whenever it's possible.

Rebecca Gooden [01:49:56] Is that, I mean, that makes sense.

Matthew Gooden [01:50:00] Yeah, certainly what we've seen.

Guest 3 [01:50:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:03] Okay. All right, so that's, that's some. I think that does, that does constitute a cover up as far as I'm concerned. Although, hence he's just doing the bidding of the people above him. But he is. His conscience should be activated at this point that he's abandoning the family and possibly endangering warden stake members. Right?

Rebecca Gooden [01:50:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:28] Okay, so how does, how and when. If the next part of the story is when Hensy sends a letter to the stake, how and when that happens?

Rebecca Gooden [01:50:41] So, so after Sean is excommunicated, he, it is his intent to be re baptized and so he's doing whatever he can. And so at one point, there's a suggestion that my brothers go get counseling. And so Sean says, absolutely, I will pay for the counseling. I will do whatever it takes for them to heal and be okay. So he begins to pay for counseling for the victims and a couple other people in the family who does Sean.

Guest [01:51:14] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:51:15] Starts paying for their counseling.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:51:19] And the victims, one's counselor, who obviously again is a mandated reporter, says, I have to, I have to tell the police, but legally I have to tell somebody. So she calls the police in Virginia. So the abuse happened on a couple different occasions, sometimes in Virginia, sometimes in Pennsylvania. And so she calls the police in Virginia and says this is, you know, this happened.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] Who did?

Rebecca Gooden [01:51:55] My victim one's counselor.

John Dehlin [01:51:58] Okay, okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:51:59] Calls the police.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] So victim ones, your brother starts giving some counseling.

Guest 2 [01:52:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:52:05] As a result of all this coming out? Maybe.

Rebecca Gooden [01:52:07] Yeah, I guess. And. And. And Sean starts paying for it, I think. I don't know, an attempt to make things right or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:52:18] So thank goodness to that mental health professional.

Matthew Gooden [01:52:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:21] Who does their duty to report the right thing. Yeah. So. So the victim one's therapist notifies Virginia.

Rebecca Gooden [01:52:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:52:32] Okay, keep going.

Rebecca Gooden [01:52:33] And so that starts, you know, the investigation. And I don't know how long the timeline there. I don't know at what point they found out and when everything happened, but I know that child protective services came to my youngest school and to interview him to make sure that he was okay at some point. And then my kids find out at some point.

Matthew Gooden [01:53:03] So I find out. In April of the same year, dad gets arrested about four months or so before.

John Dehlin [01:53:10] What year was he arrested?

Matthew Gooden [01:53:12] 2022.

John Dehlin [01:53:13] Okay. I don't think I made this point clear, but I think my reading of the statute is that Hensy was a mandatory reporter.

Guest [01:53:22] Yes.

Matthew Gooden [01:53:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:53:22] And so he either he got bad counsel.

Rebecca Gooden [01:53:27] Not only Hensy, but I know that one of the other men on the church court was a doctor.

John Dehlin [01:53:32] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:53:33] So there were also is a mandatory reporter.

John Dehlin [01:53:35] At least one to two mandatory reporters. So either the church was deceptive and told mandatory reporters to break the law, or the church's attorneys interpreted the law differently because of some excuses and. Or these men chose to go against the law. But it seems pretty clear the law was violated by these two.

Matthew Gooden [01:54:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:02] By hencey and by the physician.

Rebecca Gooden [01:54:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:06] Okay. So two years go by of mandatory reporters not reporting. The therapist reports to Virginia and then

Rebecca Gooden [01:54:18] the kids find out. My mom calls and tells, starts telling my kids.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] Oh, because Sean's arrested.

Rebecca Gooden [01:54:24] No, this is before Sean's arrested.

John Dehlin [01:54:25] Okay. Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [01:54:27] My mom just decides that the kids need to know and so she starts calling them.

John Dehlin [01:54:31] How did you feel about that?

Rebecca Gooden [01:54:34] I was upset.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] She's calling your kids?

Rebecca Gooden [01:54:36] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:54:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:37] I mean, that's intense when the grandparent is kind of going over the head of the.

Rebecca Gooden [01:54:42] We talked about it. I said, I don't want the kids to know, and she said, I'm not going to tell them. And so I thought. I. I thought a lot of things. But yeah, it was upsetting and she felt like she needed to protect them, which I under. You know. But yeah. And the way it was done was not. It wasn't handled well. But she calls and tells my kids, starts to tell my kids, and then I. So I, at that point I figure, well, I need to tell them. So the two younger kids were still at home, so we sat them down and told them what was going on. And then Matthew came home from college a little bit later and we told him when he came home.

Matthew Gooden [01:55:28] Basically it was the day after finals. My other sister, the one that my grandma had called, she breaks down in tears when she finds out all about this because to her it's just a phone call out of the blue, hey, this is what your dad, who you love, has done. And it just destroys her emotionally. My mom knows I'm in the middle of finals and she doesn't want me to go through that.

John Dehlin [01:55:49] You're a byu?

Matthew Gooden [01:55:50] I'm a byu.

John Dehlin [01:55:50] Provo.

Matthew Gooden [01:55:51] Provo, yes. She doesn't want me to have to deal with that while I'm in finals. And so she basically tells her, hey, Matthew is taking the finals right now. Don't tell him. He'll be back.

Rebecca Gooden [01:56:02] Please don't call him and tell him this way. I will tell him when he gets home.

Matthew Gooden [01:56:06] And so it was already scheduled. I was going to be coming back to Pennsylvania to sell pest control in Philadelphia. And so I was flying back the day after finals. Anyway, I get in at like 7:30 in the morning and they sit me down in the kitchen, they're like, hey, you need to know this. And at that point, I am made aware that dad has been excommunicated.

Matthew Gooden [01:56:26] I made aware that it was because of abuse. I'm not told that it was sexual in nature. And my thought is, well, it couldn't possibly be sexual in nature because there's no arrests, there's nothing else that's happened. And I know both of the victims and nothing has ever come up of it. So again, I'm still trying to rationalize some watered down version of events that can't nearly be that serious. And I'm just like, okay, thank you for telling me. Let's just move on with the rest of it.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] So the way it's told you in a bit of a vague way leads you to.

Matthew Gooden [01:57:00] I think my version is even more watered down than the version that my mom got because I'm just told it's abuse. I'm not told the nature of it. And frankly, I didn't want to ask about it because I thought, well, clearly no arrests have been made, nothing legal has happened, so the less I know, the better.

John Dehlin [01:57:17] And again, that doesn't necessarily protect kids if they don't know the extent of the abuse.

Matthew Gooden [01:57:23] Absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:25] But it's better than improvement. What was that like for you? You just say you tried to move on and forget it?

Rebecca Gooden [01:57:35] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [01:57:35] I think no one wants to know about the sins of their parents. Right. And so it's like, yeah, thank you for telling me, but I don't want to know all the details of this. I want to forget that this has ever happened and we can just kind of move on. Because again, my understanding was this happened 20 some years ago. If nothing has come up, clearly it couldn't have been that serious. Right. Surely someone would have said something within that 20 year time period. And so if it's been that long, then I can forget about it and we can just move on as if everything else is normal.

Rebecca Gooden [01:58:11] I mean, I think everybody at first is in denial because you can't. There's such a disconnect between the person that he, Sean, portrayed that he was, and the way that, you know, he, he was. We looked at him as a leader and a good person and a strong member of the church and did all these good things for people. You know, it was a good person. And then to hear what he had done, it just didn't compute. There were just. It was just hard to wrap your head around it and make sense of it all and.

Guest 3 [01:58:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:53] What was it like to tell your kids?

Rebecca Gooden [01:58:55] It was terrible. I never wanted them to know. I didn't want them. I knew how it had hurt me when I found out, and I didn't want to hurt them. I didn't want them to have to. I knew what I had been going through and I was trying to make sense of it all and figure it all out and what to do with it. And I didn't want them to have to do that. I wanted them to continue on with their blissful lives and finish school and not have to deal with it.

John Dehlin [01:59:25] Yeah. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And thank you for sharing something so hard. And I, you know, it. It has to be like the only reason it came to this was because your mom and. Or the therapist decided to speak out, right?

Rebecca Gooden [01:59:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] The, the mom, Your mom doesn't feel. She, you know, your mom decides to just pack it down or the therapist decides, oh, it's in the past or whatever. What, you're, you're still married, probably, and the kids never know. And like, that has to be how thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of these Mormon stories have happened. Because the only way I can make sense of Kurt McConkey slash the Mormon churches history of covering up abuse and not reporting it and telling people not to report it and telling people that Jesus takes care of it and the atonement takes care of it is that this has been successfully covered up thousands and thousands and thousands of times and that people's conclusion was leaders conclusions was the least amount of harm happens when this all just kind of disappears and goes away. And that's, and at the time when

Rebecca Gooden [02:01:01] it was happening, I would have agreed with that. But looking back, it was terrible and horrible. I was, I was dying inside. I was an anxious mess. I was, it was terrible. I was depressed. I was, it was terrible. And when it was coming out, I thought, well, this is even more terrible because I'm going to lose my house and I'm going to lose, there's not going to be any income. I, you know, I thought about all the terrible, more terrible things that were going to happen.

Rebecca Gooden [02:01:32] But I'm so grateful now that there were people who told. And I think that is why it is important that we have mandated reporters, because they're people who can, who are outside of the situation, who know what's best and, and can do what's right.

Rebecca Gooden [02:01:51] And I'm grateful for now, I'm grateful for that. And I can see that. And at the time it was, when you're in the middle of it, you just can't, you don't know which way's up. You can't know what's right. And it was terrible anyway.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] Yeah. Yeah. And the, the Mormon Church could do, you know, they could, they could, even if there are state laws that have a priest penitent privilege or whatever, that they could still manage their advice to church leaders to maximize the frequency of these things being reported. Right?

Matthew Gooden [02:02:42] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] And they could use their power and influence in lobbying to change state laws to make it so they are allowed to report whenever they have the opportunity to report. But what the church does is it manages its influence and its power and its money and its lobbying and its internal systems to minimize the, the number of report, the, the amount of reporting that ever happens.

Rebecca Gooden [02:03:14] And I think that one of the big reasons is because, you know, when I look at our own experience and I look at our own, our ward that we were in, what kind of mental gymnastics the members have to do at this point to say the church that we believe in, who the prophet who talks to God, puts this person as our bishop, they have to come somehow figure that all out and it's easier for the church to cover it up.

Matthew Gooden [02:03:45] I think it comes down to the truth claims that the church likes to make. Right. They're the one true restored church. God talks to their leaders directly and he gives them all the perfect advice that they need to see around corners, as President Nelson liked to say.

Matthew Gooden [02:04:00] And if you don't have a whole lot of these reported cases, then it's kind of like that confirmation to you. Right. It's like, well look, these other churches like the Catholic Church, they had a huge scandal with pedophilia in their own clergy members ranks. I feel like a lot of members could look at that and could be like, well look, clearly that can't be the one true church because look at all the terrible people that have infiltrated the clergy there. Our church, we don't have any of that. How many reported cases do we hear about?

Matthew Gooden [02:04:29] And so again, it helps fit the church's narrative if fewer people hear about the types of abuse that are going on inside of the church.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] Yeah. And so the benefit is the church maintains a better reputation, maintains more tithing, maintains more people staying active, faithful members, maintains a better image than they other would otherwise would likely have in and out of the church. At least until the COVID ups are the covers blown. Right. So those are all the ways the church benefits. And then what's the cost?

Rebecca Gooden [02:05:06] The families like ours, the women who don't know what to do when they find out that their husbands have done a terrible thing, the children who, you know, the, the shame and the trauma that it, how it impacts the kids, it, you know, I, yes, the first victims here were my brothers and it's terrible what happened to them, but our whole family is suffering and nobody's, there's a shame about it and nobody was there to help us and there still is nobody there to help us. I mean we had to figure it out all on our, by ourselves.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] Yeah. It wasn't good on your mom once she found out to have to sit with all that. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [02:05:53] No, I mean all, all of us, it was terrible all the way around.

John Dehlin [02:05:56] It couldn't have been good for your brothers. And then I think the, I think the biggest, one of the biggest problems of all is the repeat abusers, like the future victims that become horrific victims of sexual abuse because the system becomes built around keeping everything quiet and hiding and covering up.

John Dehlin [02:06:25] So the perpetrators are continually put in front of future victims and then future victims are abused and then the COVID ups happen again and again and again and more and more victims get abused. I mean that's, that's where this gets horrific. I, I, I've said this many times now. Mormon stories, we get a thousand applications a year to, to be on Mormon stories. And this is formal applications. We have informal as well.

Systemic Abuse Problems Within the Church

John Dehlin [02:06:57] But, but abuse by far is the most ubiquitous one trait that our applicants. I mean we could do a daily Mormon stories of an abuse victim which has led me to wonder along with the Boy Scouts if the Mormon Church has a bigger problem with child sexual abuse that per capita than the Catholic Church. It is very possible that it's that bad because I'm swimming in hundreds and thousands of, of reported sexual abuse.

Rebecca Gooden [02:07:31] Well, and I know that when this all started happening with our family, I, I was afraid and I, there was shame and guilt and so many feelings and you just, you want to hide, you don't want to tell people. But as I started talking about it and sharing our story, I, I couldn't believe how many people have contacted me since saying that same thing happened to me and I don't feel comfortable talking about it. But it happens all the time.

John Dehlin [02:07:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's the biggest thing is the systemic cover up leads to just more and more abuse and more and more victims and it almost grows exponentially. This, and it starts with I, people don't like this, but I think this is true. The Mormon Church starts with a prophet, Joseph Smith, who by any modern standard would be viewed as a sexual predator in that he targeted teenage girls, women, married other men as plural wives.

John Dehlin [02:08:41] It was hidden, it was covered up. He hid it from his wife, he lied about it, he hid it from the membership, he, he hid it from the general public. He taught other leaders that it was okay. He encouraged them to hide the, the, the polygamy, the polyandry to cover it up.

John Dehlin [02:09:00] And then even after Joseph was killed for it, and then it was hidden for another 10 years and denied while the church, top church leaders were practicing polygamy and polyandry and hiding and lying about it, it was covered up. It wasn't until the mid-1850s that it was actually acknowledged publicly for the first time. And then for another 40 plus years the church continues to practice it, but the federal law gets involved and so all the leaders are having to hide their polygamy and lie about it and go to Mexico to practice it and go to Canada to practice it and do these post manifesto polygamies.

John Dehlin [02:09:37] Even after the church told the world in 1890 it wasn't going to practice it anymore for at least another 15 years, they still kept practicing it privately and hiding it and lying about it. So how can you have close to 100 years, years of top church leadership hiding and lying about sexual matters.

John Dehlin [02:09:58] Can that not create a culture and a soil that's ripe for systemic sexual abuse? Like, it just makes all the sense in the world that that would be where we are today in 2026, given the founding of our church with. With Joseph Smith and with the hundred years of. Of sexual predation coverups.

Rebecca Gooden [02:10:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:26] In the church. So I. Again, it's awkward and uncomfortable to tie back to that, but please email me or call me if. If you think I'm making a stretch when I. When I tie those things together. So, anyway, so your husband is arrested in 2022.

Arrest, Letters, and Official Announcements

Rebecca Gooden [02:10:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] Kids find out. And at this point, hencey decides that it's important for the members.

Rebecca Gooden [02:10:58] What, all of a sudden he's got

Matthew Gooden [02:11:01] to reclaim the narrative?

John Dehlin [02:11:02] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [02:11:02] All of a sudden, everybody has to

John Dehlin [02:11:04] know, okay, why do you wait two years?

Rebecca Gooden [02:11:07] Well, because now he's been arrested.

Matthew Gooden [02:11:09] It's public.

John Dehlin [02:11:11] Your husband or hencey?

Rebecca Gooden [02:11:12] My husband.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [02:11:14] He doesn't. He doesn't do anything until Sean is arrested and reports are on the news, on the local news.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] Okay.

Matthew Gooden [02:11:21] So you'll get news. Virginia's reporting it because that's where the arrest is centered in. You hear it in the local news. Again, this is right around the same time where Boy Scouts are going bankrupt. And so someone's taking a scouting angle on it because he was a former Scout Master, an Eagle Scout.

Rebecca Gooden [02:11:37] Well, he was on the board of something for Scouts. Oh, yeah.

Matthew Gooden [02:11:39] He was on the board of Scouting or something like that. And so there's all these connections that are being brought in, and people in the ward are starting to connect all the dots and figure out what exactly has happened. So it's at that point that Hensley decides to send out an email. And it's very, very vague. He doesn't mention that by name.

Rebecca Gooden [02:12:03] And I think people in the ward found out about it because the. So Sean's arrested. He's. He's taken away. I call our bishop and say, this is what's happened. So our bishop knows.

John Dehlin [02:12:17] And so the warden stake. This is a former bishop who was quietly released and a former Stake presidency member, right?

Rebecca Gooden [02:12:25] Yes. So I call the bishop and I say, sean was just arrested. He comes over, hangs out with us for a little while, and then I think it's the next day he calls me and he says, I just want you to know somebody called me because there's a news article in Virginia that somebody got a hold of. And so they know that Sean has been arrested. And so I Think that's when you know, Hence he was like, oh well, we gotta. People are starting to ask questions, we've got to address it. So he sends out an email to the stake. And I think you have a copy of that.

John Dehlin [02:13:04] Yeah, I do. So this is another element that feels kind of disturbing for me. So hence he keeps it quiet, probably because he's told to. And then because now the former bishop and stake presidency members been arrested, he decides that it's in his or the church's best interest to send out an email. I'm going to show, show you the email and read it. And here's the next little. I don't want to call it a quiz or game because that trivializes it, but your job is to figure out what's missing from this letter he sends out to the stake. So here it is. Harris, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, steak. As some of you are already aware, a former member of the church and our stake has been arrested and is in custody for child abuse over 20 years ago in Virginia. What's missing? Anyone? Anyone? I don't mean to laugh.

Rebecca Gooden [02:14:13] No, the name, who was it?

Matthew Gooden [02:14:14] Nobody knows who it is.

Rebecca Gooden [02:14:17] How, how integral he was to the ward, what his callings were, how much access he had, what kind of abuse.

John Dehlin [02:14:26] Did it say his word?

Rebecca Gooden [02:14:28] No, it doesn't say any of that. It says a former member of our stake. So former could have been 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [02:14:35] So like I'm, I'm trying to give Hensy in the church the benefit of the doubt. Like, are they trying to avoid defamation? He's been arrested. It's in the papers. They could say. They could use the word alleged. They could just say he's been arrested. I mean, you could. Okay, you could say he hasn't been found guilty yet. And so they don't share the name because it's all allegations until proven guilty. I'm just trying to.

Matthew Gooden [02:15:00] The best thing that I can think of, and again, this is my speculation, I don't have any evidence for it, is that Hensy and my dad were friends. And I feel like when it comes to top Mormon leadership, it is a bit of a gentleman's club.

Rebecca Gooden [02:15:15] I don't think at this point it has anything to do with them being friends. I think at this point, hence he wants to be as far away from dad as possible.

John Dehlin [02:15:21] Well, he's.

Matthew Gooden [02:15:22] But also he's thinking in 2022, it's very much just a matter of. Well, I don't want to.

Rebecca Gooden [02:15:27] Oh, I think he probably wanted to. A little bit of protecting Sean at the very Beginning, maybe.

Matthew Gooden [02:15:34] Right. And this would have been that very beginning moment.

John Dehlin [02:15:36] But don't you think he's on the phone with Kurt McConkey daily at this point? Yes. Like, isn't he sure of it? Isn't he doing. Isn't this letter approved by Kurt McConkey?

Rebecca Gooden [02:15:46] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:15:47] And the church's lawyers?

Rebecca Gooden [02:15:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:15:48] Is there any chance he's going to be releasing this letter without Kurt McConkey's approval? Yeah, right. That's my guess. I'm guessing. But that's my guess. So I guess I'll read it. I'll go. So again, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, stake, as some of you are already aware, a former member of the church and our stake has been arrested and is in custody for child abuse over 20 years ago in Virginia. So that's already trying to minimize it. Oh, it's a long time ago in another state. The church's position is that abuse cannot be tolerated in any form. Well, was that true two years ago? Was that true four years ago? Like, when did that become true? And we take reports of abuse seriously and never disregard them? Well, I don't know. Did he take the reports of abuse seriously two years prior?

Matthew Gooden [02:16:39] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:16:43] we, we, we encourage your review of information or resources found on the church's website. He gives a link to abuse.churchofjesuschrist.org that's good, I guess. I don't remember what those policies say. And also encourage parents to teach children information and skills appropriate to their age and maturity so that they will know what to do if faced with abuse. And again, I don't know what the church is telling its parents to teach their kids about what to do in their abuse when there's abuse.

Rebecca Gooden [02:17:17] I don't know of anything.

John Dehlin [02:17:18] Because I wonder how many Mormon church members have read the church's instructions to parents on what to teach their kids if they're abused. I'm guessing it's a very, very small.

Rebecca Gooden [02:17:32] I was in the primary presidency, young woman's presidency, have four children, and I don't remember ever being taught at church what to do about child abuse.

John Dehlin [02:17:41] So the church could make this mandatory training for all leaders everywhere, for all kids in primary to go through this training. But my guess is it's worse than the gospel topics essays in the sense that no one knows really about this policy and that no one reads bigger than that.

Rebecca Gooden [02:17:57] People don't think that it. They need to. I mean, the Lord's church, why would anything bad happen?

John Dehlin [02:18:02] There's not a. It's all been covered up, so they don't know how big of a problem it is. Right. Okay. So any known past or current abuse should be reported. Okay, that's. That's good, I guess.

Guest 2 [02:18:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:20] But it doesn't say to who.

Rebecca Gooden [02:18:22] It says to the stake presidency should be reported.

John Dehlin [02:18:25] Okay. It just says, any known Pastor Kernaby should be reported is what it says.

Rebecca Gooden [02:18:29] What's the next. There's another paragraph.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Then it says, as we anchor our faith in the Savior and his gospel, we can weather challenging moments when we may not know the answer to all things and question how and why. So this is introducing the idea that the Savior with his superpowers, can make everything right. I'm reading that in, but I think that's kind of the dog whistle here. What do y' all think?

Matthew Gooden [02:18:55] Like, that's your standard format that you see in most stake emails, right? They'll be like, okay, here's the big announcement. Here's what we want you to know. Here's our spiritual thought of how we're going to tie everything back to the Savior. I've got this terrible news for you, but remember Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:19:11] Oh, Jesus. Right. I'm thinking of the south park kids. Ah, Jesus.

Matthew Gooden [02:19:15] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] So it goes on to say in Gethsemane and on Calvary, Jesus took upon himself all of the anguish and suffering ever experienced by you and me, and he has overcome it all with arms outstretched. The Savior offers the gift of healing to all. To me, that's very intentionally placed to say Jesus has already suffered for all of this and the atonement is going to make all this right.

Rebecca Gooden [02:19:43] So don't you worry about him, for

John Dehlin [02:19:45] it's already been taken care of. Yep, it's already been taken care of. Jesus paid the price. So if Jesus paid that, this is what I'm reading into it. I'm admitting that I don't mean to be. I'm feeling emotions of anger and frustration, and it's coming out sometimes in trying to make light of it or at least laugh about it, but also being frustrated. So I'm just going to own that. But what's implied here is that Jesus has already paid for this and suffered for it for the victim and the perpetrator. So our job is just kind of follow the policies because Jesus already made it. All right?

Matthew Gooden [02:20:21] Is that everybody bow your head and say yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] What?

Matthew Gooden [02:20:24] Everybody bow your head and say yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:25] Yeah. And as I've been explained to by victims, there have even been leaders that pressure victims to say, if you don't forgive your perpetrators, you're actually acting contrary to. To Jesus's atonement you're in some sense violating the atonement of Jesus Christ. Because if he's already suffered for it and he's already made it right, if you don't forgive, then you're actually an obstacle to Jesus's atonement. Does that make sense?

Rebecca Gooden [02:20:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:58] So that's. I know that, that. I guess friends would say this language does a lot of heavy lifting for the church. This atonement language, I'm reading into it, but do y' all think I'm far fetched?

Rebecca Gooden [02:21:12] No, I agree.

Matthew Gooden [02:21:13] I remember even during seminary it'd be Doctrine and Covenants. I don't remember the exact part, but it's basically something to the effect of, I, the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive. But of you, it is required to forgive all men. And if you don't forgive those people of the things they've done against you, then I'm going to hold you accountable for the sins that they did against you.

John Dehlin [02:21:34] Yeah. And that is in Mormon doctrine.

Matthew Gooden [02:21:36] Yeah, yeah. So it's explicitly written then there. They teach it through seminary, at least up until when I was there. Yeah. So that language very much echoes that same idea.

John Dehlin [02:21:45] And then here's the. I think the phrase you were referring to earlier, Rebecca. The victims and families affected warrant our prayers, love and kindness. Is that what you got from your leaders and members?

Rebecca Gooden [02:21:59] I mean, maybe they prayed for me.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] They didn't even know there was abuse.

Rebecca Gooden [02:22:04] Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm just talking about like the Rhett. I don't know. No, nobody reached out.

John Dehlin [02:22:10] But I mean, did your. Did Rhett Hensey and other church leaders offer you love and kindness?

Rebecca Gooden [02:22:18] No.

John Dehlin [02:22:19] Well, why not?

Rebecca Gooden [02:22:20] Our bishop was wonderful, but he didn't know. Well, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:26] So did Hensy offer you love and kindness? Why? Because. Why?

Rebecca Gooden [02:22:30] I. I don't know why. Hence he didn't.

John Dehlin [02:22:32] Because after the one time you talked to him. What?

Rebecca Gooden [02:22:34] He never talked to me again.

John Dehlin [02:22:36] Yeah. For two years you didn't ever talk to Hy again. That's mind blowing. Okay, and then the next sentence is, if you have questions, reports of abuse, or any other related concerns, please contact a member of the Stake Presidency. And I'm going to add, because I'm feeling a little bit bitter, so that they can ignore you, cut you off, silence you. Right. And have you be shunned like this very family was being shunned. Did you get this email?

Rebecca Gooden [02:23:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:14] How did, like maybe I'm reading so much into it and bringing my own baggage to it. How did you receive this email when you received it?

Rebecca Gooden [02:23:22] You Know what? It was right after he had been arrested. And I don't know. I don't remember. I don't know that I even read it. I know that I got it, but I don't. I don't know that I. I read the whole thing. Yeah, I was.

Matthew Gooden [02:23:35] I imagine they just sent it through, like, the regular state directory.

Rebecca Gooden [02:23:38] They sent it to everybody. Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [02:23:39] You're in the state directory, you're automatically added to their email list.

Rebecca Gooden [02:23:42] And then, hence, you got a lot of phone calls.

John Dehlin [02:23:45] What do you. What. What happened? Yeah. What do you know about.

Rebecca Gooden [02:23:47] People were just asked, first of all, they said, who was it? And then people said, how dare you say, if there's abuse, contact the stake. If there's abuse, you contact the police. That's who you contact.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] That's what the members were saying. Some of them.

Rebecca Gooden [02:24:02] That's what the members were saying to Rhett. Okay, so not long after the second email comes out.

John Dehlin [02:24:09] Okay. Okay. And the second email was not sent by the stake president?

Rebecca Gooden [02:24:14] I think it was.

John Dehlin [02:24:15] Was this from the stake president or from a member?

Rebecca Gooden [02:24:18] No, I think it was a stake resident that was forwarded to me from a member. That's why it has a member's name on it. But. But after.

John Dehlin [02:24:25] Was there someone, a member, who sent an email identifying the. The perpetrator or.

Matthew Gooden [02:24:29] No.

John Dehlin [02:24:30] Did I get that wrong?

Rebecca Gooden [02:24:31] I don't know. That I know of.

John Dehlin [02:24:34] Okay. Okay. So here's another email. This is the second email. Should I read it?

Rebecca Gooden [02:24:39] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:24:40] Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Stake brothers and sisters. To follow up on our previous communication. The individual referenced is Sean Gooden, a former leader of our stake and the Lebanon Ward who has been arrested and is in custody for child abuse. If there's any suspected or discovered abuse in this or in any other matter, please contact law enforcement. There we go. As we gather together on the Sabbath day, we can come together to show love and support to one another and seek the healing only the Savior can provide. More Savior messaging. Please continue to reflect on our earlier message about the clear direction from our Savior and the church to not tolerate any abuse in any form. But the church needs to. Needs to hear that message most of all. If you have any questions, please contact member of the Stake presidency. How did y' all feel about this email?

Rebecca Gooden [02:25:39] Again? I don't. I don't think I was paying much attention to my emails at this point. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:25:45] Okay. Okay. So obviously, hence, he could have sent that email the first time, but he didn't. So what's your theory on why he sent the second Email, Because I know

Rebecca Gooden [02:26:00] people called him and said, first of all, you need to tell us who was arrested, if they hadn't already heard and because.

John Dehlin [02:26:06] Because why. Why did they want to know?

Rebecca Gooden [02:26:09] Because they wanted to. They wanted to know if they had been affected or if they. They needed to be worried about their

John Dehlin [02:26:13] kids or if there was. If more abuse had happened.

Guest [02:26:16] Right.

John Dehlin [02:26:17] They wanted to know.

Rebecca Gooden [02:26:18] So they want to know who it was. And then they said if someone's being abused, they have to go to the police, not to the state presidency.

John Dehlin [02:26:25] Yeah. Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:26:29] So.

John Dehlin [02:26:34] At some point, Hency, stake president Hency, as I understand it, is charged with failure to report. Correct. And was that.

Rebecca Gooden [02:26:47] Well, so not long after that. So Sean is in jail. He's there for about a week, and then they release him. When Hensy finds out that he.

John Dehlin [02:26:55] How does he get released? Is he on bail or.

Rebecca Gooden [02:26:58] They just let him go.

John Dehlin [02:26:59] Well, did he pay bail? Do you know? Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [02:27:02] He was let go. He didn't have a. An ankle monitor, nothing. He wasn't. They just let him go.

Matthew Gooden [02:27:07] Not considered a flight risk.

Rebecca Gooden [02:27:09] He wasn't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:10] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [02:27:10] They let him go. And hence he found out and sent Shawn an email. I sent that to you as well that said, you can't go to church. You can't talk to anybody at church. You can't talk to children. You can't. You know, there were all these restrictions all of a sudden that, you know, hadn't been in place for two years.

John Dehlin [02:27:36] Yeah. So what changed? Why all of a sudden was he not allowed to go to church?

Rebecca Gooden [02:27:41] People knew.

Matthew Gooden [02:27:43] World knows what's going on.

Rebecca Gooden [02:27:45] And so then people at church thought that, you know, hence he had just found out that he would. He had just been excommunicated. He. And when, in fact, it had been two years hence, he knew for two years and had allowed him to. Had encouraged him to go to church.

John Dehlin [02:28:04] Yeah. And that's a lot of abuse can happen in two years. Right. And it, again, this is Hensy covering up his tracks, probably by the church's and the law's own requirements. At this point. It's damage control, but it's. It's really problematic because he's being forced to do what he should have done two years prior. He should have warned everybody two years prior, proactively. Instead, he's being forced to warn people. He has to send two emails because he didn't even warn people appropriately in the first one. And then he's only protecting the flock, the ward and the stake members once. He's forced to, because Sean was. Was Was incarcerated and charged. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when. How did. How did you find out, or when did you find out that Hencey himself was. Was charged with something?

Rebecca Gooden [02:29:08] So that didn't happen until after Sean was sentenced to. After Shawn was sentenced, then charges were brought against NC that would have been

Matthew Gooden [02:29:20] in January of 2024.

John Dehlin [02:29:23] Okay. So at some point, Sean is actually charged. At this point. Are y' all still married? Are y' all still together?

Rebecca Gooden [02:29:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:34] Okay. Are you attending the court dates with him?

Rebecca Gooden [02:29:38] Yeah. So he was. I'm trying to remember. He went. He was arrested, went down to Virginia. They let him go. I went and picked him up. And then his next hearing was. I don't even remember. I don't think it was until he went into jail, which was in July. July of the next year. So he was out from September to July.

John Dehlin [02:30:07] And you were. You were trying to support him? Were you trying to help him get off? Like, what's that like, psychologically?

Rebecca Gooden [02:30:13] I was just trying to figure out how I was going to survive. I wanted to figure out how I was going to protect my kids. I wanted to figure out how was I going to have to move? Was I, you know, I had to get a job. Yeah. I was just trying to figure out how I was going to survive.

John Dehlin [02:30:35] Yeah. Yeah. And so in the outline, the presentation we put together, there's several communications, but the one that's most interesting, I think, is between Sean and President Hencie. Do you want to. I don't want to read all those emails. But apparently, even though Sean, you know, had abused children and, you know, was. Was incarcerated and facing these types of charges, he was not happy that he was disinvited from attending church.

Rebecca Gooden [02:31:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] Talk about that communication.

Rebecca Gooden [02:31:26] I mean, I think everyone. We. We just wanted to know why. We're like, well, wait, if. If you think he's such a threat, why now? Why. Why all of a sudden are you not letting him go to church? What changed? And that's when Hennessy just said, I can't talk to you.

John Dehlin [02:31:43] Said to who?

Rebecca Gooden [02:31:45] To all of us. I. I asked him. Well, first Sean said, why? What do you mean? I can't go to church. I've been going for two years. And, you know, hence he replied and said, you can't. He didn't really give a reason. I mean, you've got the.

John Dehlin [02:31:59] He didn't just say that. He said, this abuse happened a couple decades ago. I've been. I've been bishop. I've been stake presidency. Like, I'm the same guy. Yeah, I. I was When I was your bit, your bishop, I was the same guy. When I was in the stake presidency, I've been the same guy this whole time. It's already been forgiven. It's in the past. Why can't I go to church? And to some degree, I can see that point of view from God's perspective. What changed?

Rebecca Gooden [02:32:28] I mean, you just said we're all forgiven, right? Isn't that what the email said? Everybody's forgiven?

Matthew Gooden [02:32:33] And the other thing he's also pointing to is even in the Book of Mormon and stuff like that, even if someone does get excommunicated, God says you're not supposed to forbid them from meeting with you and fellowshipping. Everyone is welcome to come to church. And my dad's pulling up those scriptures and he's like, hey, look, scripture says I should be allowed to come to church, even though I've done.

Rebecca Gooden [02:32:54] Yeah. And he said, I haven't been convicted of anything. It was, you know, before his conviction, I should be able to come.

John Dehlin [02:33:05] Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it just shows, like, where, where, where does the church have principles here?

Matthew Gooden [02:33:11] Right?

John Dehlin [02:33:12] Like when, like when the law doesn't know and the members don't know, the guy can. The abuser can go to church. It's kept from the members. No harm, no foul. But as soon as the church knows, or as soon as the law knows and the members know, all of a sudden the victim, sorry, all of a sudden the perpetrator gets no pastoral care at all, is cut off from his membership. Other than what, attending church by zoom? There's no explanation as to why he was told he was forgiven. He was allowed to serve in all those callings. He was called as bishop or stake presidency member by God, you know, and again, allowed to serve for two years.

John Dehlin [02:34:01] Like I can actually weirdly empathize with Sean to say, what the heck? How can you, like, from Sean's perspective, I bet there was a part of him that felt like, if ever I needed the gospel, if ever I needed leadership support, now is when I need it. I'm basing jail time. My family may be dissolved. Isn't this where the church should be showing up for me? And it's almost like at every turn, the church is abandoning the people that need the church most at the worst possible time. Am I, Is that fair? Is that unfair?

Rebecca Gooden [02:34:38] I, I agree. I mean, when I look at it from the perspective of the other people in the ward, I'm sure that they did not want him there, but they should have been protected two years prior. I mean, that the time for that was two years ago.

Rebecca Gooden [02:34:53] And so from Sean's perspective, he was, you know, I just. What you said, I. This is the worst time of my life. I need the support of who I thought were my friends. You know, he wanted to go, and from me and the kids, we just wanted to have answers, you know, I just said what I don't understand.

Rebecca Gooden [02:35:17] First of all, it's fine. It's not that big of a deal. Yes, go now. He's been arrested. No, don't go. And there was no answers. And then I remember one morning we were getting ready to go to church and my youngest came down and I said, okay, are we gonna go? And he said, well, isn't dad going? And I said, dad's not allowed to go. And he said, why can't dad go? And I said, well, because of what he did. And he said, oh, so now we can't go to church when we make mistakes? Well, I've made mistakes, so I shouldn't go either. And so I. I get that it's not the same. I understand.

Guest 3 [02:35:55] I.

Rebecca Gooden [02:35:56] If I was anyone in that ward, I would agree that I would not want Sean there because of the risk. But to like my kids, they. They just didn't understand all the inconsistencies and all of the. Just all of it. It was just all a mess.

John Dehlin [02:36:14] Yeah. I'm so sorry. Yeah. And as I'm reading through, so you have the email correspondence between Sean, your ex husband, and stake president hencey, and basically, you know, one email, this is September 19, 2022. It's like, hey, Sean, you know, don't. Don't come to church anymore in person, phone social, don't contact any minors in the church and you know, don't attend. And you know, and he also shares the atonement stuff and have your faith in the Savior and all that and Gethsemane and Calvary. But, you know, he should have sent that email two years prior, just full stop. And Kurt McConkey should have told him to send that email. The do not attend church anymore, you know, should have been given immediately.

Rebecca Gooden [02:37:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:37:16] Not only when the. The law got involved and not only when the members found out.

Guest [02:37:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:37:24] So that is a lack of character on the church's part. And it seems like, yes, hence he was doing what he was told, but it seems like there was a moral failing on Hensi's part there, it seems to me. So that's the first thing. And then Sean's responding, saying, hey, how long this is hard. And then he's Quoting third Nephi, that says, I mean, this is. Do the scriptures matter? Like, by the way, we believe the scriptures are like the core to our gospel. Well, on behalf of Sean, let me read what verse Sean is sharing with the Stake President. You're both laughing now. Why are you guys laughing?

Rebecca Gooden [02:38:07] Yeah, you have to laugh. You don't laugh and cry because it's

John Dehlin [02:38:11] like the scriptures apply. Unless they don't. Right. So third Nephi, 1832. Ye shall not cast. Cast out. Ye shall not cast him out of your places of worship. For unto such shall ye continue to minister, for ye know not but what they will return and repent. Repent. This is even before they've repented. And come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them. And ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them. So basically, the Book of Mormon is commanding Mormon Church leadership to let Sean and all other perpetrators continue attending. So actually, I can see why another reason why abuse is covered up in the Mormon Church.

Guest 3 [02:39:00] Church.

John Dehlin [02:39:01] In addition to the Book of Mormon claiming that dark skin is a curse from God, from wickedness, the Book of Mormon claims that predators, child sexual abuse predators should not be cast out from the ward. So when Mormon church leaders allow child abusers to continue in the midst and not be cast out, it's because the Book of Mormon says so. I didn't know that.

Matthew Gooden [02:39:25] Now you do learn something new every day.

John Dehlin [02:39:29] And Sean knew this scripture.

Matthew Gooden [02:39:33] I think that comes to his learning background. My dad is always ready to present his own legal argument or scriptural argument when it comes to stuff like this to try to get people to see things his way.

John Dehlin [02:39:45] Yeah. And in his email, he's like, I haven't. There's no one else who's come forward. He says, I assume that no one has come forward to accuse me of any wrongdoing. He's not saying I didn't abuse anyone, by the way. He's saying, I assume no one's come forward. That's interesting.

Rebecca Gooden [02:40:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:02] Right. And then he writes further, following my membership withdrawal, not excommunication because they renamed it, I attended church regularly for nearly two years without any issue. Meaning I haven't repeated offending as far as anyone knows. Yeah, it's going to make members uncomfortable. But, you know, anyway, he gives his best explanation. Hence he's saying, I'm having a hard time understand this. And of course he says, rebecca's having a really hard time.

Rebecca Gooden [02:40:38] All of a sudden he's concerned I'm having a hard time.

John Dehlin [02:40:42] So then he gone, goes on to Say that not only Rebecca is having a hard time, but, you know, some of my children are having a hard time. So, you know, this is hard. And then he says bishop is. Bishop X is doing a great job of shepherding him. But he. This must be. Your son is knowledgeable enough about the Gospel to see the disconnect between what the Savior taught and what the scriptures say. And this instruction that I not attend any meetings and it makes him angry, hungry, and to not want to attend that feels a little manipulative. Because basically what Sean is saying is this is making my son, it's making my wife sad, and it's making my son angry.

Rebecca Gooden [02:41:25] You've done what everyone else has done is making everybody sad.

John Dehlin [02:41:29] Yeah, we're laughing, but that's pretty rich. Yeah, but he didn't show signs of being a narcissist before. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [02:41:39] When I look back, I. I see a lot more.

Matthew Gooden [02:41:43] The signs were there.

Rebecca Gooden [02:41:44] If you signs were there.

John Dehlin [02:41:45] Yeah, there were. Now you look back.

Rebecca Gooden [02:41:47] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [02:41:48] You know that phrase Hindsight is 20 20.

John Dehlin [02:41:50] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [02:41:50] I feel like that is especially the case and stuff like this.

John Dehlin [02:41:54] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 2 [02:41:54] It's like.

John Dehlin [02:41:55] Yeah, but not that he's abuser. Just that.

Matthew Gooden [02:41:58] Not that he's an abuser. No. But that he's very persuasive and manipulative. Just like this.

John Dehlin [02:42:04] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [02:42:05] Again, these are regular ways that he would interact with people all the time.

John Dehlin [02:42:08] Yeah. And then, you know, you've got hencey responding, saying thank you, and this is hard, but, you know, don't come. I don't feel like it's yet time to make a change. So he's acting like it's the Holy Ghost. Hence he is acting like it's the Holy Ghost that's governing his decisions now. Where was the Holy Ghost two years ago? Right.

Rebecca Gooden [02:42:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:35] I don't know. I don't mean to be through the whole thing.

Rebecca Gooden [02:42:37] I mean, through all of it.

John Dehlin [02:42:40] Yeah, yeah. So he stays consistent. There's more email exchanges between him. Do you want to, you know, do you want to summarize the exchanges between Sean and Hensy? Because there's a lot here.

Rebecca Gooden [02:42:57] I mean, it's just more of the same. Sean felt like he should be able to go to church. He. I mean, so many times I. He acted like. I don't. I don't understand what the big deal is. It was 20 years ago and I'm a good guy and everybody knows I'm a good guy and look at all that I did. I did all this good thing since then and.

John Dehlin [02:43:18] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [02:43:18] Why are you all treating Me this way.

John Dehlin [02:43:20] He also says the handbook, that how they're treating him isn't. Doesn't conform with the handbook. And I don't know the handbook enough.

Rebecca Gooden [02:43:26] Yeah, he went through the handbook and found the. Said, you can't keep people from going to church or. I don't remember exactly.

John Dehlin [02:43:33] So the handbook hadn't been updated for pedophiles yet.

Rebecca Gooden [02:43:36] No. I mean, has it been updated now? I don't. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:43:38] Yeah, I don't know. Okay, so ultimately, after all this became public, if the church, if. If child abuse is not made public, the church is okay with the child abuser intermingling with wards and stake members as soon as it becomes public, that's when the church doesn't want child abusers around members.

Hensy Arrested for Failure to Report

Matthew Gooden [02:43:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:43:59] And that's weird. The church should just want to protect the members. Not only protect the members if it's not public, if it's made public. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [02:44:07] And I think that if somebody was found out to be abusing children and they weren't the bishop, it might be handled differently again, I think because of his callings and, and because, you know, the First Presidency called him as bishop. There's. There's a lot of mental gymnastics that has to happen there.

John Dehlin [02:44:26] And I. Yeah. And then at some point, Hencey is actually charged with failure to report.

Rebecca Gooden [02:44:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:44:35] And we have a document. I don't want to misstate what the document is, but it seems to be something mentioning Baal and $10,000 in bail. Do you guys know what this document is?

Rebecca Gooden [02:44:47] I think that's just like the.

Matthew Gooden [02:44:49] I think the charges. That's the document there showing who was arrested and why. And the result of that first year was Hensi arrested. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:45:00] So Hencey, who's Now in Area 3070 as state president, was arrested for failure to report.

Rebecca Gooden [02:45:07] Charged with failure to report.

John Dehlin [02:45:09] And it says, I think, that the bail was set at $10,000. Did I read somewhere that the church paid that $10,000 bail?

Rebecca Gooden [02:45:17] Oh, I have no idea.

Matthew Gooden [02:45:18] I don't know about that.

John Dehlin [02:45:19] Okay.

Matthew Gooden [02:45:20] Be an interesting use of tithing funds, though.

John Dehlin [02:45:23] Yeah. And we're speculating, but I'm guessing the church offered legal representation to Hensy.

Rebecca Gooden [02:45:30] Oh, and they said that they were vigorously defending him. There was.

John Dehlin [02:45:36] Yeah. Yeah. So what can y' all tell us about Hennessy's fate as having been charged with failure to report?

Rebecca Gooden [02:45:48] So he was charged and the Church's position was he did not have to do anything. He didn't do anything wrong. It was 20 years ago. The victims were adults.

John Dehlin [02:45:58] It was in Virginia where it happened.

Rebecca Gooden [02:46:00] He didn't do anything wrong. And at one point, I think you have a recording. One of the members of the stake presidency is a lawyer. And he got up in front of one of the wards and just said, you know, members, you just don't understand. This is really complex. But just know the church is handling it and President Hensey didn't do anything wrong and it's all going to be taken care of.

John Dehlin [02:46:20] Okay, I want to play that recording. But in the timeline we have the, the emergence of T. Michael Price.

Rebecca Gooden [02:46:32] So when, when. Hence, he would not talk to any of us. And I was frustrated because he wouldn't talk to me for a long time. And I can, I'm a big girl. I can handle it. I don't need to talk to him. But my kids wanted to talk to him. They were concerned and they didn't understand. And they, I said, ask President Hennessey because I don't understand. And so they, because they're wanting their

John Dehlin [02:46:53] dad to be able to attend. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [02:46:54] They just want to understand what's happening.

John Dehlin [02:46:56] Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [02:46:57] And Sean is saying, you know, look at the scripture, I should be able to attend. And. And they just don't understand the handbook. And they don't understand.

John Dehlin [02:47:05] Okay.

Matthew Gooden [02:47:05] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [02:47:06] And so they, they reach out, at least two of them reach out to hencey and say, I want to talk to you. I want to understand what, what is going on. Why, why are you being this way? Why won't you help my family? And he just said, I'm sorry, I can't talk to you. It was like a copy and paste text message or email that he would send back that said, I can't talk to you.

John Dehlin [02:47:29] And I mean, not only, you know, would he be involved in the lawsuit around your, your ex husband going to jail, but now he was also potentially going to be in trouble with the law. So I can see for all the reasons the lawyers are like, you can't talk to anyone about it.

Rebecca Gooden [02:47:48] And this was, though, before he was even charged.

John Dehlin [02:47:50] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [02:47:51] That he wouldn't. But maybe they knew that it was coming. I don't know.

Matthew Gooden [02:47:54] The thing with Pennsylvania, if you look at its history recently, you've got both the Bill Cosby and the Jerry Sandusky from Penn State, Pennsylvania were both in Pennsylvania.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] Right.

Matthew Gooden [02:48:04] And so Pennsylvania has pretty firm stance, I like to say, when it comes to sexual abuse.

John Dehlin [02:48:09] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [02:48:11] So I think that hence he would have known when this was all going down. Well, failure to report is a big deal.

Rebecca Gooden [02:48:18] It's a big deal.

Matthew Gooden [02:48:19] So I Want to make sure I've got all my bases covered. I don't want to slip up and say something to anyone who might turn around and have testifying against me.

John Dehlin [02:48:30] So you try to talk to Hintsy or try to get. Hence, he said, if you won't talk

Rebecca Gooden [02:48:34] to me, then can I talk to the area authority? And he said, sure. And he sends me his email. And so I email the area authority. And I said, and I, for whatever reason, thought he had no idea what was happening. I guess that was silly of me to think that. So I said, you know, I need to talk to you about my stick president. And he said, okay. And he schedules a time for us to talk on the phone. And I start at the beginning and I tell him the whole story and everything that's happened. And I said. And I just.

John Dehlin [02:49:05] Let me just show a picture of him. So this is a picture of him. His name is T. Michael Price. He's a banking executive. Chief executive officer. He was chief executive officer of First Commonwealth Financial Corporation, you know, and he was. He was called to be in Area 70 in 2021. So kind of a year before all this really came out. Okay. And looks like a nice guy.

Rebecca Gooden [02:49:38] Yeah. So I just talked to him on the phone and I said. I explained it all to him, and I said, I just don't understand. Can you just help me to understand what's happening and something that I can tell my children? I said, why won't President Hensey talk to me? And he said, why do you think he won't talk to you? And I said, well, are there lawyers involved? And he said, yes. And then he said, there's nothing else I can say about it.

John Dehlin [02:50:03] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:03] So he didn't want to talk to me either.

John Dehlin [02:50:05] So he wasn't particularly helpful either.

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:08] No.

John Dehlin [02:50:09] Did he offer pastoral care, counseling?

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:12] No.

John Dehlin [02:50:13] Any support?

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:14] No.

John Dehlin [02:50:15] So the area Authority also failed in terms of his pastoral duties.

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:19] The only leader that gave us any support was our bishop.

John Dehlin [02:50:23] Okay, well, I mean, that's not nothing.

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:25] Yeah, he was great.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] But the bishop also. The information was withheld for him. So the bishop found out.

Guest 3 [02:50:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:35] How did your bishop find out about the abuse?

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:38] So the day before Sean was arrested, he got a phone call from the district attorney in Virginia.

John Dehlin [02:50:44] Who did?

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:45] Sean did.

John Dehlin [02:50:46] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [02:50:46] He got a phone call and he said, this is. I forget who from. Basically the district attorney from Virginia. And we have some questions for you. Would you mind coming down and talking to us? And he said, sure. Do you mind if I bring a lawyer? And they said, yeah, that's Fine. Well, you know, he said, okay, great. I'll call you back when I have that all figured out.

Rebecca Gooden [02:51:07] And so at this point, Sean thought, you know, somebody's found something out, and I'm. I'm probably going to be arrested. And he called the bishop. The bishop came over and he said, I know that you don't know why I was excommunicated, but based on some things. But based on those events, I think I'm going to get arrested. And, you know, Rebecca and the kids are really going to need your help.

Rebecca Gooden [02:51:33] And then two days later, he was. The police came and he was arrested. And so that's how the bishop knew. And then he found out about the crimes in the newspaper just like the rest of us. I mean, that's how I found out in the newspaper.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] So once the bishop was able to know what happened, was he able to offer support to you and your family?

Rebecca Gooden [02:51:59] Um, I mean, he just checked in on us, wanted to make sure we were okay. And he was great. After Sean was put in jail, you know, he was great at supporting me and the kids and helping us, okay, navigate things.

Matthew Gooden [02:52:13] And I know that with my younger brother, he did a really good job of keeping in touch with him, making sure that he felt included and invited to the ward activities that were going on, trying to do his best to sort of shepherd him and make sure that he was getting his spiritual needs met.

John Dehlin [02:52:31] Well, that's good.

Matthew Gooden [02:52:32] Again, if there's any hero in the story, I would say it would be that bishop.

John Dehlin [02:52:38] Yeah. But I mean, checking in to see if you're okay, that's not. When you've given.

Matthew Gooden [02:52:45] At this point, the church has set a very low bar.

John Dehlin [02:52:47] Yeah. I mean, when you've given your life to the church and over $100,000 in tithing. And I guess it's nice that once the bishop is allowed to know what you're actually dealing with after multiple years, it's nice that he would check in on you every once in a while. I don't mean to be cynical, but, like, the church isn't providing you with a whole lot of support here.

Rebecca Gooden [02:53:09] No.

John Dehlin [02:53:10] And it's. And a lot of the people that you would expect to support you are offering zero support.

Rebecca Gooden [02:53:16] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:53:17] Yeah. So, okay. So. So Price wasn't helpful either. He was a lot like your stake president. And then. Yeah, this. So what is this audio recording I'm about to play?

Rebecca Gooden [02:53:29] That is when a member of the stake president, after, hence, he's arrested, they make this kind of announcement to some of the wards. So this Is just a recording of what he said.

John Dehlin [02:53:41] Okay, so that the sitting stake president.

Rebecca Gooden [02:53:44] This is his counselor.

John Dehlin [02:53:45] Right. But I'm just saying, hence he was arrested while he was stake president.

Matthew Gooden [02:53:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:51] That'd be weird for a stake to have your stake president be arrested.

Rebecca Gooden [02:53:54] And so one of his counselors came to explain to the ward what was going on.

John Dehlin [02:53:59] Okay, so let's go ahead and play that clip. So I'm gonna turn time over to president Johnson. Following him, they will have an opening statement.

Matthew Gooden [02:54:11] Him number 70, sing Grace at hand to their opening invocation.

John Dehlin [02:54:16] Johnson's a counselor in the state presidency.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [02:54:25] Brother and sisters, many of you are aware the state police this past week charged president Keny with the failure to believe, the failure to report information about an abuse situation that was given to him when he was acting as clergy as state president.

Video Clip 1 [02:54:49] And there's been a lot of information that's been out on the Internet causing questions. The articles failed to mention that based on the research and the position the church has, that president Hintze in this particular situation, did not have discretion or was not permitted to report that particular information. This particular situation occurred over 20 years ago. The victims of the abuse are over 30 years old right now, and they've been asked to. They've asked us to read a statement.

Video Clip 1 [02:55:30] The church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints works actively to prevent abuse. Abuse. Our hearts ache for victims of abuse, and the church is committed to addressing such incidents wherever they are found. The church trains its leaders and supports their lawful efforts. The charges now brought by local prosecutors for failing to report the abuse are misguided, and the church will vigorously defend him. The situation is much more complicated legally than the information you're reading on the Internet would lead you to believe.

Video Clip 1 [02:56:07] One thing I can tell you is that Elder Cook, member of the quorum of the twelve apostles, has been actively monitoring and watching what is. What is going on. President Haney, who is the president of the area where we had general authority 70, has also thoroughly reviewed the situation. He's talked with all the lawyers involved. And the counsel we've been given is that we move forward, we continue to have our meetings, continue to work, and that all of this will be resolved appropriately and that it's in heavenly father's hands and that we're to have confidence in our church leaders and understand that everything that president Hinsey did was fully approved by the church. He followed appropriate legal protocols, and that he's done everything that he was supposed to have done. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:57:04] Okay, so before I forget, a couple things of Note there, it seems like they were saying the state president had no discretion legally, that he had no option. That's how I understood what he just said, that the stake president had no option, his hands were tied, basically. That he couldn't report.

Rebecca Gooden [02:57:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:57:26] That doesn't, that doesn't seem true to me. Why? Any idea why he would think or believe or say that President hencey would not have been allowed to report even if he wanted to?

Rebecca Gooden [02:57:42] I mean, according to the statute that we read, that doesn't makes sense.

Matthew Gooden [02:57:49] My understanding of it is they are trying to go for clergy pennant privilege, and because of that, if clergy penitent privilege is in effect, then hence he wouldn't be able to go to authorities with the information that he had received.

Rebecca Gooden [02:58:04] But that doesn't apply to situations of abuse, correct?

John Dehlin [02:58:10] In Pennsylvania, you're saying?

Rebecca Gooden [02:58:13] I'm. I think so. That's my understanding.

John Dehlin [02:58:17] I mean, that's, that's the difficult part is there's so much that's nuanced here. There's. There's the fact. Again, I'm sure this is what the church would say. It happened a couple decades ago. It happened in a different state. They would probably say that because the confession happened under the, the, you know, priest penitent privilege, that, that ties the hands of the stake president. But what's complicated is the, the victim also reported to the stake president. So once. Right. The state president.

Rebecca Gooden [02:59:00] State president, what?

John Dehlin [02:59:01] The victim's mom with your mom.

Rebecca Gooden [02:59:03] From my mom. And then the victim.

John Dehlin [02:59:06] So he finds out from people other than.

Rebecca Gooden [02:59:08] So he could have told.

John Dehlin [02:59:10] He could have told.

Rebecca Gooden [02:59:11] No.

John Dehlin [02:59:12] Yeah. And then also there's the matter of him being responsible, knowing that there were children in the home of the abuser and that the abuser would have had two years to spend time with ward members and had access. So it seems like the church was being deceptive there and giving him bad counsel. But because they have super powerful lawyers and lots of money, they probably felt confident that they could get him off even if charged a couple other things. So that felt dishonest to me. But I'm not a lawyer. It seems like they're saying, hey, don't worry, Apostle Cook knows. So he. By the way, I'm pretty sure Cook is an attorney. Cook, is Cook an attorney?

Matthew Gooden [03:00:05] He is, yes.

John Dehlin [03:00:07] Yeah. And I know he did entrepreneurial stuff and business stuff and hospital stuff, but I'm not sure about that. Maybe Julia can find out. But, you know, it seems like he was saying, don't worry. The apostles know everything is, you know, as it should be. And at the end, it seemed like he also said that the stake president, Hencey, did everything the church told him to. So he basically. They definitely weren't trying to pin this on Hencey as going rogue or doing something wrong. But also, they're admitting that everything hence he did came from them. Came from the top.

Matthew Gooden [03:00:48] The exact language they used was, the church has approved of everything, hence he did.

John Dehlin [03:00:54] Okay. So interesting.

Matthew Gooden [03:00:56] It definitely seems to me like there's that oversight that he was in communication with church general leadership or church attorneys, making sure everything was being done the way that they wanted it to be done.

Guest [03:01:07] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [03:01:08] The thing that stood out to me when I first heard that was, you know, he said, you don't need to worry about what's going on. It's. This is complicated and you just wouldn't understand. You just need to let this. The church has got this. You don't worry, you know?

John Dehlin [03:01:25] Yeah. Yeah. That's what I.

Rebecca Gooden [03:01:27] And I thought. This isn't complicated. This isn't. Is it as complicated as you're making it? He knew about something and should have told.

John Dehlin [03:01:37] Yeah. What was absent. I guess we should say what was absent from that statement. What would you like to have heard him also say?

Rebecca Gooden [03:01:44] Well, I think what's important, what people don't realize when. When I hear people defending things that happened in the stake, what I hear was, hence. Hence, he did all that he could or he didn't. He didn't find out until later. What. What people don't understand was Sean was excommunicated two years prior to his arrest, and hence he encouraged him to go to church and be around their children for two years and did nothing to protect the. My children knowing that they were living with someone who committed sexual abuse or the members. Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:02:23] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:02:24] From. From their children possibly being abused. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [03:02:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:02:28] Yeah. And then if somebody says, well, you should have protected your kids, I think that's where you say you were too close.

Rebecca Gooden [03:02:34] And I didn't know. I. I didn't know the extent of what he had done.

Guest [03:02:38] Right.

John Dehlin [03:02:40] Because he had lied to you.

Rebecca Gooden [03:02:41] Yeah. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [03:02:43] Yeah. Okay.

Matthew Gooden [03:02:44] Up until we start reading the arrest records and.

Rebecca Gooden [03:02:47] And based on.

Matthew Gooden [03:02:48] Publish what the charges are based on

Rebecca Gooden [03:02:50] the actions of everybody around me. But hence he knew. Hence he knew the information.

John Dehlin [03:02:57] Yeah. Yeah. And then they mentioned Haney. I just wanted to pull up information on Haney as well, because I think it's relevant. Who they're calling is area authorities and general authorities these days, and they mention Elder Haney and it says, you know, Haney got his J.D. his law degree in 1985, also from Brigham Young University. And he practiced law for 20 years, 25 years with the international law firm of Latham and Watkins, and then he opened his own law firm. So, you know, it's no coincidence that two of the three members of the current Mormon Church First Presidency are attorneys and that several of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles are attorneys, and that the several past church historians, official church historians of the Mormon Church are attorneys, and that an overwhelmingly high percentage of area and general authorities that the church calls are attorneys or corporate business executives that have had their own experience dealing with these sorts of matters.

John Dehlin [03:04:16] I just think that's something that's interesting. They're not calling as top church leaders teachers or, you know, mental health professionals, social workers, you know, women, mothers, like, there's all sorts of professions. Nurses, right? Yeah, There are all sorts of professions that could be called into leadership that could help influence both policy and care of members.

John Dehlin [03:04:49] They're not calling those people into leadership positions. They're calling lawyers and business executives. And I think that's by design. Right. Because who can handle the scandal, who can clean up the mess with as little collateral damage as possible, who can follow instructions, who are the company men that know how to obey and to deliver in an effective way, again, to keep the damage and the quiet minimum? That's who it seems like they prioritize and most of all, who's most loyal.

Rebecca Gooden [03:05:29] And I think that's why Hencey was called as a 70, because he proved that he was loyal and would do what they said.

Charges Against Hensy Dropped

John Dehlin [03:05:38] So before we talk about that Hennessy gets off, what do you know about how Hennessy gets out of being charged with failure to report?

Rebecca Gooden [03:05:49] I know that the church attorneys talk to victim one and he doesn't. He's very active member of the church and he does not want the Church to get into trouble about this at all. And so I would guess is that they would need Victim 1 to testify against Hencey to make the charges stick. And so the attorneys talk to him and he doesn't want to do anything. And so as far as, you know,

John Dehlin [03:06:19] the Mormon Church attorneys reached out to one of the victims who is a faithful member of the church.

Rebecca Gooden [03:06:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:28] And possibly could have influenced him to not press charges.

Rebecca Gooden [03:06:34] That would be my guess. I mean, they, whatever they did, damage control, whatever that included, there was a conversation, they went to him. And my understanding that I've heard from family members is that they wanted to talk to anyone else in the family who was also in agreement with this Victim. And so victim one contacted my mom and said, the church attorneys would like to talk to you as well. What. What would you have to say to them? And my mom is very upset about the whole thing. And she said, well, I'm not going to. I'm going to tell them that they didn't protect people and they didn't do what they were supposed to do. And he said, well, then they're probably not going to contact you. And they didn't.

John Dehlin [03:07:18] So your impression was the church attorneys didn't want to talk to anyone who weren't going to tell them what they wanted to hear and. Or play ball?

Rebecca Gooden [03:07:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:07:28] With what they wanted. With what outcome they wanted.

Rebecca Gooden [03:07:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:07:32] Okay. It does seem like a conflict of interest for church attorneys to be talking to a faithful member who stood to testify against Hencey. I don't know if that's called witness tampering. I'm sure they know the rules. And.

Rebecca Gooden [03:07:49] And they didn't talk to victim too. They didn't talk to my parents. They didn't talk to me. Didn't.

John Dehlin [03:07:55] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:07:56] I think the biggest thing from a legal perspective, and again, I'm not an attorney, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the issue is with getting through clergy pennant privilege is you would need for victim number one to testify that he had spoken to that stake president and that is how he learned of the abuse. Without that testimony there, you can't prove that there is failure to report.

John Dehlin [03:08:23] Oh, and we do know the stake president did talk to victim one.

Matthew Gooden [03:08:27] Yes.

Rebecca Gooden [03:08:28] Yes.

Matthew Gooden [03:08:29] And so the easiest way to get past clergy pent privilege is get victim one to just say, hey, I reported the abuse and he didn't report it to the proper legal authorities.

John Dehlin [03:08:45] Interesting.

Guest [03:08:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:47] Because Hintsy could hide behind priest penitent privilege for his conversations with Sean, but he couldn't hide behind his conversation with the victim.

Matthew Gooden [03:08:59] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:09:01] So they may have gotten the victim, who is faithful, to just drop the charges. This feels like the Mafia. Like in this Lego case that we covered yesterday, you guys are laughing. This is like when the mob boss, you know, either intimidates or kills the witness to. So that there's no one to testify or buys them off. Right. Like, I don't know, this is probably the way the world works, not just in religion, but just with rich people and with successful people. But like, that's what this reminds me of is like the Godfather.

Matthew Gooden [03:09:35] Yeah. There's a very real type of correlation there.

John Dehlin [03:09:40] And the Mormon hashtag. The hashtag Mormon mafia is trending in. In June of 2026, because of this whole Lego scandal that happened with the American force police department. And, you know, this YouTuber Ben. I'm forgetting reckless Ben. And him trying to anyway, deal with some Lego fraud that happened. But anyway, I'll just share the news article. The news article. One of them says, charges dropped against Pennsylvania church leader accused of not reporting. Reporting sex abuse. And then we have some excerpts from the article. A district attorney in Pennsylvania officially dropped all charges against a church leader. This is Hensy. Who is accused of not reporting a sexual assault that occurred in 2000. And then a second part that was outlined. The victims and the victims families requested the withdrawal of the charges. Okay, and I think you want to make the point that that's not fully true. Correct.

Rebecca Gooden [03:10:55] I. I think victim one wanted. Wanted the charges to go away, but nobody else did.

John Dehlin [03:11:02] Not victim two. Not the parents of victims one and two. Not the sibling, at least one sibling of victim one and two. And not victim two.

Matthew Gooden [03:11:13] Correct.

Rebecca Gooden [03:11:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:11:14] Right.

Rebecca Gooden [03:11:15] Only victim one.

John Dehlin [03:11:16] So that's misleading. And I don't know why the news station would report something misleading.

Rebecca Gooden [03:11:22] Well, I. My guess would be that's what the attorneys told the D. A. I mean, they probably said, why are you doing this? The. The victims and their family don't want it to happen.

John Dehlin [03:11:34] Okay. So that would have influenced the DA The. The church attorneys telling the DA that they've dropped their charges in the family.

Rebecca Gooden [03:11:44] And I think.

John Dehlin [03:11:45] So it's possible that church attorneys misled the D.A.

Rebecca Gooden [03:11:48] i don't know. I mean, I wasn't part of any of that.

Matthew Gooden [03:11:51] Yeah, that's where we start to get into that speculative realm.

Guest 3 [03:11:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:54] Right.

Rebecca Gooden [03:11:54] But the other thing I think that's important to recognize is the charges were dropped, because when I was talking to someone, they said, you know, hence, he's a good guy. He was found not guilty. And that's not what happened. He was not found guilty. It wasn't not found.

John Dehlin [03:12:08] It wasn't exonerated. It's like Joseph Smith's treasure digging. He wasn't exonerated. He was let go. The charges were dropped. But not because he wasn't guilty of the charges. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [03:12:19] The church has lots of money and came to his aid and the charges were dropped. Which is very different than being found not guilty.

John Dehlin [03:12:25] The church got him off.

Rebecca Gooden [03:12:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:12:26] Just like a mob boss's lawyer can get a mob boss off even if the crimes were committed.

Matthew Gooden [03:12:32] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:12:34] Yeah. They had to get Al Capone on tax evasion because they couldn't get him on murder because there were no living witnesses. To the murders. Right.

Matthew Gooden [03:12:42] There might have been witnesses, but they got paid off first.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] Right.

Matthew Gooden [03:12:45] Hard to hide a paper trail though.

John Dehlin [03:12:47] Yeah. Okay, and the last part of the article that was highlighted, it says Hintsy initially was charged for the failure to report the alleged sexual abuse. The alleged. Why is it alleged? It's not alleged if the victims and the perpetrator all agree. So that's interesting language.

Rebecca Gooden [03:13:04] And at this point I think that he had already been convicted.

Matthew Gooden [03:13:07] Yeah, dad would have been sentenced six months prior to Hintsy's arrest.

John Dehlin [03:13:12] So that's weird since he confessed and he was convicted. Anyway. Hinsey initially was charged for the failure to report the alleged sexual abuse of a 12 year old boy by a man named Sean Gooden, who was charged with the assault 13 years later in 2023. Okay. Anything you want to say about that?

Rebecca Gooden [03:13:32] I think that's all.

John Dehlin [03:13:33] Okay. Oh, and then there's one other. I guess there's one other thing that's highlighted. The victims and the victim's families requested the withdrawal of the charges. In addition to consideration of the victim's request, the DA examined the circumstances of the defendant. Red Hinsey has no criminal history.

John Dehlin [03:13:58] So. Red Hinsey is a nice guy. He hasn't done anything in the past. So that's another reason why he should be let go. And then the slide says, this story says that the victim and family asked for the charges to be dropped. Okay, we already covered that part.

John Dehlin [03:14:19] And that the church lawyers wouldn't talk to anyone else in the family. Oh, and then one last thing. I'm sure this is part of the settlement. The church had to give something. And it says, despite all charges being dropped against Hinsey, the DA said the church he is affiliated with will be required to do training pertaining to the topics of sexual abuse and the reporting of it. So that sounds to me like the type of like concession that a guilty party would make in a plea deal or in a mediation or negotiation so that the district attorney can say there were some consequences. So.

Rebecca Gooden [03:15:01] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:03] And that was 2023, correct?

Matthew Gooden [03:15:06] 24.

John Dehlin [03:15:07] 2024. Where that. Where those charges get dropped. Okay. And so that's when you did your interview with Radio Free Mormon, correct?

Matthew Gooden [03:15:19] We did.

John Dehlin [03:15:19] Around that. Around that time.

Rebecca Gooden [03:15:21] It was, I think it was right after he was charged.

John Dehlin [03:15:23] Okay.

Matthew Gooden [03:15:23] So that year he gets charged in January. I want to say we interviewed with Radio Free Mormon in February.

John Dehlin [03:15:30] Yeah, yeah. Okay. And I don't think this, I don't think Mormon stories. I don't think I would have chosen to cover this story. And maybe y' all would have been fine with that interview with Radio Free Mormon until what happens?

Rebecca Gooden [03:15:43] He was called to be a 70, so.

John Dehlin [03:15:46] So this is just like the audacity for me after hearing this story fully, the audacity of the Mormon Church blows my mind.

Rebecca Gooden [03:16:00] It's like, we'll show you.

Hensy Promoted to Area Authority Seventy

John Dehlin [03:16:04] So here's, you know, new area 70s sustained at April 2026 General Conference leadership meeting and lo and behold, in the 10th quorum of the 70. Rhett R. Hinsey, 55 and then in Etters, Pennsylvania. Is that a place? Currently serving as president of the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Stake, former Bishop and bishopric Councilor, wife Melissa, three children. Rhett Hensy is called to be one of the top few hundred leaders in the Mormon Church. So in effect, he's promoted.

Rebecca Gooden [03:16:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:16:51] From stake President to area authority. What were your thoughts and feelings?

Rebecca Gooden [03:16:57] I couldn't believe it. I, you know, the. It's been so long. This has been going on for so long, this whole saga. And I feel like for the most part, me and the kids were doing really well and we don't really think about it much. But when this came out, it was like it brought everything back up again. I just thought of all of the men that you could have picked. Why would you do this? Why would you. It's like a slap in the face to everybody who went through this and everybody was hurt by it. For the church just be to just say, we don't care what you think. We're. We're going to do what we want and we're gonna reward him for sticking with what we said.

John Dehlin [03:17:40] How'd you feel, Matthew?

Matthew Gooden [03:17:42] I remember I was at work when it happened and I was absolutely furious the entire rest of the day. I was at work between doing my job. I was again, I was going onto social media and I was putting out posts there for anything related to that announcement. I was like, hey, you should know that Rhett Hensy, one of the guys who was called, helped to cover up child sexual assault.

Matthew Gooden [03:18:09] And by the end of the shift, my manager is there and he's like, are you okay? You seem a little bit angry. I think I just told him, yeah, I just got some really bad news today. I'll be fine by tomorrow.

Matthew Gooden [03:18:21] But it was one of those things where I was just very visibly upset. And yeah, it was like my mom said, it was a slap to the face that after everything that had happened, the church decides to reward people who cover up sexual assault instead of trying to do. Trying to enact policies that would help to Protect the vulnerable.

John Dehlin [03:18:45] I mean, if I'm trying to make sense of it, I'm guessing number one, the church feels justified in how it handles all this stuff legally. And it feels like a church did nothing wrong. And then I think the church also would say, and it did say that. Hence he did everything they asked him to do. So from the church's perspective, how could they hold it against Hensy? Because he did everything they told him to do. And from the church's perspective, they did nothing wrong to begin with. So I can see why they called him. But it's still the optics of it. It's just like the church needs better consultants because they keep doing things that just seem inexplicably self destructive. Right. Because they had to know this would end up on Mormon stories. Right?

Rebecca Gooden [03:19:38] I mean, one would think maybe they

Matthew Gooden [03:19:40] thought, oh, it's a year removed, two years removed, no one's going to care now let's reward the guy.

John Dehlin [03:19:47] Yeah. And it is just forgetting all of the optics. It's just callous for the victims. I mean, for your brothers, right? For. I mean, I wonder how your believing brother feels. I wonder how your mom feels.

Rebecca Gooden [03:20:02] My mom was not happy.

John Dehlin [03:20:04] Your mom, who's Eloise.

Rebecca Gooden [03:20:06] So that's what I go by now.

John Dehlin [03:20:09] Oh, okay. Okay. So this is your response?

Rebecca Gooden [03:20:13] Yeah, I go by Eloise now.

John Dehlin [03:20:15] Do you want me to read what you wrote or.

Rebecca Gooden [03:20:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:20:18] It says, I am disgusted. I lived through the consequences of this kind of leadership. Instead of helping victims and supporting the vulnerable, the truth was kept hidden when it mattered most. Protection and accountability weren't there. Protecting image over people causes real harm. Harm that doesn't just disappear with time or titles. Watching that kind of leadership be elevated without real accountability is beyond disturbing. No promotion changes what was done or the impact it had. And you posted this? You posted this where? On Facebook it looks like with the Harrisburg Steak.

Rebecca Gooden [03:20:57] So the Harrisburg Steak posted that article and then I reposted it with my comments. And my kids went on the Harrisburg on the Harrisburg Stakes post. And you want to say what you.

Matthew Gooden [03:21:14] My words were a little bit more direct than what my mom would say.

John Dehlin [03:21:18] What'd you say? Ish.

Matthew Gooden [03:21:19] I'm pretty sure I just said it's disgusting to see that they're promoting pedophile protectors. I think it's exactly what it is. I called them and again. Right. The Facebook group moderators say delete that

Rebecca Gooden [03:21:33] shortly after they deleted them all. But I. I commented on. I have not said much publicly. You know, we were on rfm, but that. That came about because somebody else was going on and asked us to join. And I said, sure, but I haven't really publicly said much. I've tried to just, you know, do my own thing and move on and. But that. I just really felt like people needed to know the truth. They needed to know who they were supporting. And so I made that post, and then I commented on somebody else's post, and it was one that Rhett and Missy were both tagged in. So they saw that what I had said, and less than a day went by, and my stake president contacted me,

John Dehlin [03:22:22] and that's the text message we have.

Rebecca Gooden [03:22:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:25] Debbie, is it worth reading that?

Rebecca Gooden [03:22:27] I mean, he just. You can.

John Dehlin [03:22:29] I mean, he'll read it. Sister Gooden, it occurred to me as I read your Facebook post that maybe you feel as though no one has been willing to listen to you. I am willing. He misspelled it. I am willing to listen to you if you're interested. Either way, I'm praying for you and your children. President Smith, So how did you feel about that?

Rebecca Gooden [03:22:56] So I. I felt like, you know, somebody had tattled, and they wanted to, you know, get Sister Gooden in line. And so they had asked him to reach out to me because I. Since I've moved to my new house, I haven't been to church. I haven't talked to anybody in the ward. I'd never talked to the stake president before. And all of a sudden, he's reaching out to me.

Rebecca Gooden [03:23:19] And so I said, I, you know, I'm happy to talk to you. I don't know that it'll do anything at this point, but I'm happy to talk to you. And so he came over to the house, and we had a good conversation. He didn't know, obviously, anything. Nobody, you know, now they will. But nobody knows what. What the full extent was and what everything was that happened. And so when I told him, he was shocked. He couldn't believe it. And he said, I want to apologize to you on behalf of the church.

Rebecca Gooden [03:23:49] And I said, that's nice of you, but you're not the one who needs to apologize. You didn't do anything, and you can't apologize for all of those people.

John Dehlin [03:23:57] Weirdly, the current church prophet, President Dallin H. Oaks, is on record saying, we neither seek nor offer apologies. So it seems like he was out of line when he apologized for the church, actually, even though he meant well,

Rebecca Gooden [03:24:13] he meant well, and he was a very, very kind. And he listened. And you could tell that he was. He was really surprised by the way that Things went and wanted to do whatever he could to. To help. So that was nice of him.

John Dehlin [03:24:32] Yeah. And, you know, in your text response,

Rebecca Gooden [03:24:37] so I sent him what. That was what Matthew said.

Matthew Gooden [03:24:40] That is the what I would have said.

Rebecca Gooden [03:24:42] I told Matthew that I had told the kids because I try to keep the kids up to date on what's going on. And I said, you know, the stake president wants to talk to me. And this is what he said. And Matthew said, well, this is what I would say. And so I said to the stake president, I, you know, it's not just me, it's my kids. And this is what. This is what Matthew says. And I sent it to him.

John Dehlin [03:25:04] And so you. I'll just read this part if it's all right, Matthew.

Matthew Gooden [03:25:09] Go right ahead.

John Dehlin [03:25:11] You basically say, that's a much more thoughtful response than I would have given. I simply would have said that those who protect pedophiles should be locked up with said pedophiles and not promoted to greater positions of authority over vulnerable groups and individuals. Jesus's response to those who harm children suggests a fate worse than being thrown into the sea with a millstone around one's neck. In your personal opinion, would you deem Rhett's promotion consistent with the teachings of the Savior? I think that's officially called a hot take. What would you add to that, Matthew?

Matthew Gooden [03:25:56] I think that I am fairly consistent on that hot take.

John Dehlin [03:25:59] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:25:59] I think that crimes against children and against vulnerable people are just about the worst type of crime that you can commit. And what I think is very interesting, looking at the scriptures, is this is really the only time where Jesus just kind of out of the blue says, by the way, this is the worst thing that you can do. And I'm going to describe to you sort of an idea of what the punishment is going to be the rest of the time. He's very open and very merciful, and he's trying to call people to come to him. And this is the one instance where he's like, no, actually, this is what I think should happen to people like that.

John Dehlin [03:26:35] That is true.

Matthew Gooden [03:26:36] And so for me.

John Dehlin [03:26:38] And it's pretty violent, by the way. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of what a mob boss would do. Yes, exactly. Jesus recommends a mob boss, like death. But to pedophiles.

Matthew Gooden [03:26:49] Yes, specifically to pedophiles. And so again, when I look at an organization that claims to be the one true church and is acting in Christ's name, I have to say, well, Jesus is on the record. Why is it that the church doesn't seem to be consistent with what Jesus has said.

John Dehlin [03:27:08] Yeah, I mean it is a selective application of scripture. Right. Whether they're ignoring the Book of Mormon in the case of keeping Sean out of church or ignoring Jesus admonition for how child abusers should be treated. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [03:27:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:25] So this story ends up, and I think I may have been slightly involved in this, but basically this story ends up in the Daily Mail with the headline Mormon Church couldn't Care Less about Sex Abuse Victims claim Son of Pedophile Bishop who is Shielded by Religious Leader Now Charged with Covering up crimes. So that the story made the news. I mean, not New York Times, not Salt Lake Tribune, not Deseret News, but at least it made some news.

Rebecca Gooden [03:27:57] Yes, it was in the Desert News, was it?

Matthew Gooden [03:28:00] No, it was David Mail.

Rebecca Gooden [03:28:01] But I think I thought Desert News covered, covered it too.

John Dehlin [03:28:05] I would be really surprised, I would be super surprised if the Desert News covered this. They may have so the story, but it would have been in a way that made the church look good. I can promise you that.

Rebecca Gooden [03:28:15] I have to go back and look.

Matthew Gooden [03:28:16] The story behind that article, if I remember correctly, was around September, October, ish. I think there was something posted on the Mormon Stories YouTube channel where it was, if anyone has any stories about sex abuse cover ups within the church, contact this reporter at DailyMail. And at that point I decided to reach out and share my understanding of events with the Daily Mail reporter.

Matthew Gooden [03:28:46] So I reach out to him and I start explaining how things had gone down for my dad, exactly how he had abused my uncles and how that had been covered up by the church. The issue with it at the time though is because I was still at byu, I didn't really want to go on the record. I was worried that there might be some sort of backlash or retribution on the church through BYU if I were to go on the record against them.

Media Coverage and Public Fallout

Matthew Gooden [03:29:13] And so it wasn't published at that time. After Rhett was arrested in Pennsylvania though, that same reporter reaches out to me again and he's like, hey, I have some follow up questions about Rhett Hensy. Are you willing to talk to me a little bit more about it? And so I do a second interview with him, we talk more about it. And that's when I decided to go on the record because I figured that at that point I was just about done with school and I was like, you know what? If they want to come after me for this, then that says more about the church than it does about anything else. So let's go ahead, go on the Record and get everything straight.

John Dehlin [03:29:50] Julia sent me a link to that. There was in fact a Deseret news article about this case. I'm guessing it was likely damage control because obviously this hit international news. And I think because I'm curious, but also just to be fair, first of all, it was written by Ted Walsh, who in my opinion, writes puff pieces that to favor the church. He's kind of like an apologist journalist.

John Dehlin [03:30:24] This is the way he covered just the recent lawsuit. If you read the article, there's so much he could have said about the church's lawsuit against me, but. Or my excommunication. He covered my excommunication. I mean, if anybody wants to have some fun, go back and read the way Tad Walsh covers the. The most delicate and controversial news stories that the church has with people like me or Tim Ballard or Kate Kelly or, you know, stake president, Area Authority Hinsey. But let's go and read the article because I'm just kind of curious. Is that all right? Because this is like.

John Dehlin [03:31:01] This is like specimen one of damage control by the church. So this article is June 7, 2024. DA district attorney drops charges against Latter Day Saint State President. That's the headline. Ted Walch, a Latter Day Saint State president in Pennsylvania, no longer faces a charge that he failed to report, report or refer suspected child abuse. The Dolphin Dolphin.

Rebecca Gooden [03:31:32] Dolphin County.

John Dehlin [03:31:32] Dolphin County District Attorney's office withdrew the criminal complaint Friday that had charged President Rhett Heny of New Cumberland, Pennsylvania with not reporting suspected child abuse allegedly committed. Allegedly by a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints in 2000. Why is he saying allegedly or suspected? Right. Yeah. Because he confessed. Right. And was church.

Matthew Gooden [03:31:59] So the church would have been convicted.

John Dehlin [03:32:01] Convicted. Yeah. The church praised the decision in a statement issued Friday afternoon. This is the church's statement, Quote, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints takes allegations of child abuse very seriously and complies with the child abuse reporting obligations. Church spokesman Sam Penrod said the church has stood behind Rhett Hinsey from the time this case was filed and appreciates the vigilant efforts of the district Attorney's office to thoroughly review the case, which has resulted in the charges against him being dismissed. President Hencey complied with the law and supported the victims through the legal process. I think we've already talked about why that might not necessarily be true. Right. Just because charges are dropped doesn't mean he complied with the law or.

Rebecca Gooden [03:32:51] Or he supported the victims.

Guest 3 [03:32:53] Right.

Matthew Gooden [03:32:53] I don't think that he was in touch with any of the victims beyond that one meeting, I haven't spoken to

Rebecca Gooden [03:32:58] him since John was excommunicated.

John Dehlin [03:32:59] Yeah. They go on to write. We are relieved and gratified that the Dauphin County District attorney has withdrawn the charges filed against Red Hensy. Hence, his attorney, James T. Clancy, said in a statement provided to the Deseret News, it is clear from the facts of the case that the charges against Mr. Hinsey were not warranted. Mr. Hinsey has always been vigilant about the protection of children from abuse of any kind. Interesting. What do you all have to say about that last sentence? Stake president, area Authority. Hinsey has always been vigilant about the protection of children from abuse of any kind. Summarize.

Rebecca Gooden [03:33:41] He wasn't vigilant in protecting my children or the children in my ward or

John Dehlin [03:33:45] sake for two years.

Rebecca Gooden [03:33:47] For two years?

John Dehlin [03:33:50] Why would they claim that he was vigilant?

Rebecca Gooden [03:33:53] I have no idea.

John Dehlin [03:33:55] I mean, that's kind of outrageous. And then they give their justification. Police said Hinsey learned about the abuse more than 20 years after it happened while serving as stake president. The information came from two sources. A confession by Sean Gooden and discussions with the man who says he was 12 years old when Gooden allegedly took him and his brother on a camping trip to French Creek State park in 2000 and assaulted him. So they're admitting that he didn't talk to victim number two, only talked to victim number one, who was a faithful member and who they felt like would play ball, maybe potentially.

Matthew Gooden [03:34:36] And they're continuing to say allegedly for everything.

John Dehlin [03:34:38] Yeah. After Gooden revealed the abuse to Hencey, the stake president approached the victim, now an adult. The victim asked Hinsey to keep the matter confidential. Clancy said Mr. Hinsey immediately consulted with legal counsel. I'm sure that's true. Clancy said under the circumstances, a report to law enforcement was not required. Is that true?

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:08] I'm not a lawyer, so I don't. I mean it.

John Dehlin [03:35:12] I mean, I guess that would be the.

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:14] A court. That's the. That's the crux.

John Dehlin [03:35:16] Clearly, the DA thought that a report to law enforcement was required, but if the. If one of the victims is dropping the charges, you know.

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:28] Yeah, I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:35:30] As such, and honoring the adult victim's request, no report was made. Did victim number one, your brother, tell the Stig president not to report?

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:45] I don't know.

Matthew Gooden [03:35:49] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:49] Victim number one doesn't talk to me,

John Dehlin [03:35:51] so I don't know to this day.

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:53] How long has that been?

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:57] Years.

John Dehlin [03:35:58] Since all this happened.

Rebecca Gooden [03:35:59] Since all this happened.

John Dehlin [03:36:00] Why are you being punished?

Rebecca Gooden [03:36:01] I don't know.

Matthew Gooden [03:36:03] I'll even say I speak with victim number one exactly twice a year. Every year on his birthday, I will text him happy Birthday. And two days later, on my birthday, he will text me happy Birthday. And that is it.

Matthew Gooden [03:36:17] And it's been very surprising to me because again, after everything came out, I started improving my relationship with the rest of my mom's family. I sense in, I guess for like the past four years now, I've been going to my grandmother's place for Thanksgiving, and I'll regularly see her. I'll regularly see victim number two.

Matthew Gooden [03:36:42] And I would like to think that relationships are improving and getting back to where they were prior to all of this happening. Victim number one, he lives in the same area as my grandma. And victim number two, I have never seen him or any member of his family on any of those visits.

Matthew Gooden [03:37:01] And that's all I can say about it, is for one reason or another, he just doesn't want any sort of contact with our family.

John Dehlin [03:37:14] That's hard. It's hard when the victims and the victim's family members are punished, you know, it is. And I guess he's a victim, so. But there's lots of victims, so it's sad when the collateral damage, you know, is the way it is. I'll just go on. It says that Hintsy guided the victim to report the abuse to law enforcement. But. But the victim didn't report the abuse to law enforcement, as far as we know. Correct.

Rebecca Gooden [03:37:46] As far as I know, he told his counselor and the counselor called the police.

John Dehlin [03:37:52] Right. So it was the counselor that did it, not the victim. So that just seems like the church covering its bases. But I don't know.

Rebecca Gooden [03:38:00] And I mean, I think after it was reported, the police, I'm sure, reached out to the victims to build their case.

John Dehlin [03:38:08] Yeah. The report led to Gooden's conviction in Virginia where he is serving prison sentence for child sexual abuse of the victim in that state. What it's not saying is that it's the therapist that. That made it. So this happened.

Rebecca Gooden [03:38:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:38:26] So they're trying to make it look like the. It was the church. It was because the church that the. The perpetrator ended up getting convicted.

Rebecca Gooden [03:38:36] I think what they want to say is that maybe hence he didn't report it, but he encouraged the victim to report himself, and so hence he didn't need to. Yeah, but that's not what happened.

John Dehlin [03:38:48] I don't think so. Yeah. That feels misleading.

Rebecca Gooden [03:38:52] And. And in no way was. Were my children or the members of the warden stake protected.

John Dehlin [03:39:00] Yeah. And they're not acknowledging it was the therapist that reported. They're making it sound like it was the victim who reported because they told the victim to report, which I don't think is what happened. But I don't know, perhaps in the

Matthew Gooden [03:39:16] eyes of that attorney and journalist, they're thinking, well, a report was made, a conviction was made, and at the end of the day, those are the two important things. Right.

John Dehlin [03:39:26] But also, the way they're crafting the language leaves you with the impression it's the church. It's. It's this. This is only known because the church encouraged it to be reported, which I just think is generally the opposite of truth. Right.

Rebecca Gooden [03:39:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:39:42] Virginia officials contacted Pennsylvania police about the alleged abuse related to the camping trip. Golden Gooden was charged. Related to those allegations on the prosecution is ongoing. Clancy praised the district attorney for withdrawing the charge against Hinsey, which was filed in January. Quote, District Attorney Fran Chardo's decision reflects his office's thorough and professional review and consideration of the facts of the case, while also respecting the wishes of the victims of the tragic acts that occurred more than 20 years ago. Clancy said Sharda determined the prosecution was not in the public interest. According to a news release issued by the District Attorney's office, quote, law enforcement authorities consulted with the family of the victims of the pertinent child abuse.

John Dehlin [03:40:36] Of the pertinent child abuse. The release said the victims are now adults. The victims and the victims families requested the withdrawal of the charges. So there again, he's repeating a misleading statement, which is that all the victims and all the family members of the victims all wanted the withdrawal of charges, Correct?

Matthew Gooden [03:40:58] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:40:58] So that's not true. We applaud District Attorney Chardo for his shared commitment to vigorously protect children from abuse, as if that's the church's behavior as well. And we appreciate the careful consideration he gave to this matter. Clancy said the Church of Jesus Christ called the charge misguided when it was filed in February and said it would vigorously defend Hinsey. Police said Hinsey, who was. Who as stake president, oversees more than half a dozen congregations, is a mandatory reporter of abuse under Pennsylvania's Child Protective Services law because he is a religious leader. But like most states, Pennsylvania law carves out an exception for information clergy learns through privileged communication, often known as priest penitent privilege, which doesn't involve the confession of the victim's mom.

Rebecca Gooden [03:41:56] Correct?

John Dehlin [03:41:56] Right. Or the victim.

Rebecca Gooden [03:41:59] The first that he heard about it was from my mom.

John Dehlin [03:42:02] Yeah. Confidential communications make to A member of the clergy. Confidential communications made to a member of the clergy are protected. The law says, again, Ted Walsh, that seems to be misleading because that's not what happened here.

Rebecca Gooden [03:42:20] Yeah, my mom was the first one. And I. I know that my mom was not happy with the way that it was handled. I know that she would not have said drop the charges.

John Dehlin [03:42:30] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:42:31] Nor do I think victim number two would have wanted that.

John Dehlin [03:42:36] Yeah, well, that feels misleading and deceptive. And most importantly, the biggest problem is that to this day, it seems like the church continues to keep abuse quiet, discourage in any way that it can, victims or victims family members from reporting abuse to police, and does everything it can to keep everything quiet and hush hush, which, and these actions make it so future victims like Wade Christopherson's victims become victims because this is all quieted and hushed. Hushed and swept under the rug.

John Dehlin [03:43:30] And perpetrators are allowed to continue associating with members and family members having never been told that they're in the midst of a predator. I mean, that's what it comes down to. And in 2026, I don't know that we're any better off than we were in 2020 or 1990 or ever.

John Dehlin [03:43:51] So that was a lot of work. We're 3 hours and 48 minutes in. I guess the question that we've asked a few times throughout this episode is looking back now, our church leaders write that all of you would have been better off having stayed quiet, sweeping this under the rug. Matthew never been told. The children, never been told. Grandma staying quiet.

Leaving the Church and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [03:44:25] You, Rebecca, staying quiet. You know, your husband Sean being allowed to become stake president or area authority someday or whatever. You guys serving church missions and the children, the family being kept together and Sean never going to jail and the family staying intact. And who knows, maybe y' all would have gotten the second anointing at some point, right? Like.

John Dehlin [03:44:51] Like as you're sitting here now are Mormon church leaders. Right. That this would have all ended up better if it was all swept under the rug and kept quiet. What's your answer now?

Rebecca Gooden [03:45:08] No.

John Dehlin [03:45:08] Why not?

Rebecca Gooden [03:45:09] At the time when it was all happening, it was devastating. And I wanted nothing more than for it to just all go away because it was really hard. But now that I'm on the other end and can see things more clearly, I think that it's important. I think that it's important that people who hurt children are punished, that they. That they go to jail. And I think that people who cover up for them are held responsible as well. And I think that it's important that we have mandatory reporters because I think that people that are in the midst of this situation when it's going on can't.

Rebecca Gooden [03:45:48] They just can't even think straight. They can't be held responsible to make good decisions. I mean, it takes time to process things and to figure out what's best and. And now that I'm on the other side of that, I can see that. And I'm grateful for the people that came forward and said what they said.

John Dehlin [03:46:11] What about your personal life?

Rebecca Gooden [03:46:13] My personal life is way better.

John Dehlin [03:46:16] How is that even possible?

Rebecca Gooden [03:46:17] I have a great life.

John Dehlin [03:46:19] Are you still active in the church?

Rebecca Gooden [03:46:21] I have not been to my ward since I moved now.

John Dehlin [03:46:24] So how long has that been?

Rebecca Gooden [03:46:25] That was in September.

John Dehlin [03:46:27] Okay.

Rebecca Gooden [03:46:28] So I. I was going off and on to my last word, mostly because of my bishop that, you know, like I said, took really good care of our family and. But when we moved in September, I. I haven't been back and. And I miss going. I mean, I miss the community. And so I've. I'm engaged now in my fiance and I talk about, you know, maybe going, finding a church or a community to go to, but after all that's happened with, with Rhett Hensi, I don't know that I'll ever be able to go back to the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [03:47:06] What. What does this done to your beliefs?

Rebecca Gooden [03:47:12] Well, I think that. I think that if the church was led by a prophet who could, you know, as you said, see around corners and. And new things, that men who abuse children would not be called as bishop.

Rebecca Gooden [03:47:30] And so I don't believe that the leaders of our church know what's best for us. I mean, I think that I was. I grew up a certain way and was told what to think and what to believe, and I went along with that.

Rebecca Gooden [03:47:46] And I didn't think for myself as much as I should. And since this has all happened, I have. I've been forced to take care of myself in a different way. You know, before, I relied on the church and Sean to take care of me and to help me. And since this has happened, I've been forced to take care of myself and to learn things for myself and. And while it was really hard, it's been really good and I'm really happy now.

John Dehlin [03:48:18] What's been good?

Rebecca Gooden [03:48:20] So the first thing I did was I went back and I finished my degree at BYU and I graduated. I went. I'm in graduate school now to become a therapist. I have a job.

John Dehlin [03:48:32] Let me. Let me just really quickly. I think I've got some photos I sent you some pictures and just want you to tell us what. What's in these photos, if you can even see them. So what's that a photo of?

Rebecca Gooden [03:48:45] That's when I graduated byu.

John Dehlin [03:48:47] So you went back and got your bachelor's degree?

Rebecca Gooden [03:48:49] I did it online, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:48:50] How long ago?

Rebecca Gooden [03:48:52] Matthew and I graduated together.

Matthew Gooden [03:48:53] We did. Graduated April of last year is when they had the ceremony.

John Dehlin [03:48:57] So this is just last year?

Guest [03:48:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:48:59] Y' all graduated together?

Rebecca Gooden [03:49:00] Y.

John Dehlin [03:49:01] How fun is that? Yeah. Okay, then what's this a photo of?

Rebecca Gooden [03:49:06] I bought a house. My very own house.

John Dehlin [03:49:08] You bought your own house?

Rebecca Gooden [03:49:09] It was great. When I went in and signed the paper, it said, Rebecca Gooden, single woman, soul owner. It was great.

John Dehlin [03:49:18] And who is that photo? Do you want to say who that photo is?

Rebecca Gooden [03:49:20] That's my youngest son.

John Dehlin [03:49:21] Okay. And then what's this photo? I'm in grad school with the Messiah.

Rebecca Gooden [03:49:29] Messiah University? Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:49:32] So you're in grad school for what purpose?

Rebecca Gooden [03:49:35] To become a therapist. Licensed clinical therapist.

John Dehlin [03:49:38] And do you have a sense for what population you want to try and work with?

Rebecca Gooden [03:49:43] Yeah. Women like me that are transitioning and need some help and reclaiming their voice and maybe who have been in religions or relationships that have kind of squelched that.

John Dehlin [03:49:58] And you're using a new name now?

Rebecca Gooden [03:50:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:50:03] Do you want to talk about that?

Rebecca Gooden [03:50:05] Sure. So when everything was happening and I. I'm gonna get emotional. When everything was happening, I didn't think that I had the strength to. To do anything. I. I was really low. My family had abandoned me, my church had abandoned me, and I just didn't think that I was strong enough to do what needed to be done.

Rebecca Gooden [03:50:34] And I had remembered when I used to go to karaoke with a friend, and she was a great singer, and I never thought I could sing very well. And so I had a karaoke name, and it was Eloise.

Rebecca Gooden [03:50:49] And so when I wasn't brave enough to go sing, I would call myself Eloise. And I would go and sing karaoke with her. And it was fun. And it was fun to just pretend that I was somebody else.

Rebecca Gooden [03:51:00] And so when all of this was happening, I. I thought, I'm not strong enough. If I was strong enough, what would I do? And I thought in my mind, I would. I would make new friends, and I would go back to school, and I would.

Rebecca Gooden [03:51:20] There was a whole list. And so I. They were the things that I would do if I was braver. And I named that braver version of me Eloise. And so now I go by Eloise.

John Dehlin [03:51:35] So you've renamed yourself.

Rebecca Gooden [03:51:38] Not when. So when the divorce was final, I asked if I could legally change my name, and they said they couldn't at the divorce, but. But that's what I go by. Everybody that I am friends with now, they all call me Eloise.

John Dehlin [03:51:48] It's like you've been born again.

Rebecca Gooden [03:51:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:51:52] I mean, you know, when you think about being a wealthy retired Mormon couple serving church missions with a large, righteous posterity, I can see an angle where that's, like, every Mormon's dream, right?

Rebecca Gooden [03:52:09] Yeah. And that's where I thought we were headed.

John Dehlin [03:52:12] But.

Rebecca Gooden [03:52:13] And so it was. It was. I mean, my whole identity had to shift. It was a complete change, and I had to. That per. That version of me had to die and be reborn.

John Dehlin [03:52:27] And some would say that's just all sadness. In fact, a Mormon would say wickedness never was happiness, and that the church's plan is the great plan of happiness. So other plans, just, by definition, are going to be less happy. But you're saying there's an angle which you're more happy now?

Guest 2 [03:52:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:52:46] How could you say that if leaving the church, in effect, and going your own way has led to greater happiness?

Rebecca Gooden [03:52:56] I just. I just am. I'm. I'm living my life on my terms and the way that I want it. And I think that I'm. I mean, at my core, I'm the same person that I always was. I think that through the things that I learned at church and, you know, like those we heard in the beginning about what women were supposed to do or, you know, what their role was supposed to be, I think that that chipped away at who I was, and I think that parts of my marriage chipped away at who I was. And so I think now that I. Now that I've come through all this, I am able to just be myself again. I can. You know, I'm still a good person. I still have good friends. I still do good things, and. But I do it on my terms, and I'm really happy.

John Dehlin [03:53:54] And I'm sure it's nice to have a husband who's successful and retired and who can take care of you. I'm sure there's a level where that's nice and there's some downsides to that, but the flip side is, I also imagine it's nice to be able to, like, go back to school, get your degree, go to graduate school, get a house, and realize that you can take care of yourself.

Rebecca Gooden [03:54:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:54:20] You don't need a marriage.

Rebecca Gooden [03:54:21] That was the. One of the biggest anxieties was, I can't take care of myself. I haven't made a decision on my own in 25 years. I don't even know how to make a decision is how I felt. I don't know how to take care of myself.

Rebecca Gooden [03:54:34] And so through this process, I've. I mean, just little things, changing the battery in my car or turning my grill on or, you know, getting a job and just making decisions for myself and not. Not going back and asking my husband or saying a prayer about it to make sure it was the right decision or.

Rebecca Gooden [03:54:56] Yeah, And I'm gonna. I'm engaged now to a great man. And one of the things that I love best about him is he. He believes in me. And if I say, oh, I don't know what to do, he. He doesn't give me the answer or say, oh, I'll do that for you. Oh, there he is. He says, you're amazing, and you've got this.

John Dehlin [03:55:20] And is that a different type of relationship than you had with Sean?

Guest 2 [03:55:23] Yes.

Rebecca Gooden [03:55:25] Yeah. When I was married, I always felt like I was along for the ride in his life. Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:55:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:55:36] That was powerful. That was beautiful. And. Yeah. So I'm curious how you know, Matthew, how you would answer the same question, because, I mean, there's. You love your dad, there's dad's grade and BYU graduate, and I imagine this may have affected your faith.

Matthew Gooden [03:55:58] I don't know. To a certain degree. Yes. I was already deconstructing everything from several years prior to finding out about everything.

John Dehlin [03:56:07] Oh, really?

Matthew Gooden [03:56:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:56:09] How'd that happen?

Matthew Gooden [03:56:12] Shortly after I came back from my mission, for reasons I won't get into, I was very angry at God. And part of what I had come to realize was the God that I had been raised to believe in, that's taught in Mormonism, that idea of God. And I just didn't really get along too well. And I came to realize that the type of God that I believe exists and that the church teaches is not the same thing.

Matthew Gooden [03:56:43] And for lots of different reasons, I went through that deconstructive process. But one of the big things that this experience helped for me with is in relation to the restoration. We teach the importance of the priesthood and of proper priesthood authority.

Matthew Gooden [03:56:59] And that if someone, through unrighteous dominion, it says amen to their priesthood. My dad, he was the one who baptized me. He was the one who ordained me to the Aaronic priesthood, to the Melchizedek priesthood. He was there to set me a partisan missionary. He was there for each and every one of those ordinances and it kind of raises the question of, okay, so I'm into my dad's priesthood because obviously child sexual assault is definitely unrighteous. Dominion. Does my baptism count?

John Dehlin [03:57:31] Does my ordination count? Technically, no.

Matthew Gooden [03:57:33] What happens to all of the people that I taught and baptized on my mission? Why isn't the church sending representatives out to them saying, we need to get your ordinances agree done? We found a break in the priesthood authority and it was like, okay, so we're not caring about the break in priesthood authority.

Matthew Gooden [03:57:51] So are we saying now that my ordinance has come because of my faith? If that's the case, then look back at first century Christians. They were being faced with death by gladiator combat. If they weren't willing to renounce Christianity, are we really going to say that their faith doesn't count just because the people who baptized them and were teaching them might have been wicked or corrupt?

Matthew Gooden [03:58:13] And if that's the case, well then why doesn't God say, well, Catholicism or any other branch of Christianity just works for his purposes. And so it was this idea of, well, there isn't really a need for restoration or a priesthood as the church likes to teach, that there is.

Matthew Gooden [03:58:31] And so for me, that was a really big step towards stepping away from the church and realizing that I didn't really need its beliefs or to think that it had the secrets to my own personal happiness. Because in reality, it was actually very contra productive to what it is that I wanted to do to be happy.

John Dehlin [03:58:51] So you didn't leave your mission very happy or whole? It sounds like.

Matthew Gooden [03:58:55] I like to think that I was happy on my mission. My mission had some of the highest and lowest moments of my life.

John Dehlin [03:59:02] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:59:03] And at the time that I left, I was very happy that I had served.

John Dehlin [03:59:07] But you were angry with God.

Matthew Gooden [03:59:08] I was very angry with God. That's, it's.

John Dehlin [03:59:11] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:59:12] Again, I feel like life and a mission are both very complicated. Right.

John Dehlin [03:59:15] Yeah.

Matthew Gooden [03:59:15] I can recognize, I made really good friends. I can recognize that the people that I served, the country that I went to, I absolutely love Mexican culture and cuisine and all of the things that I learned while I was there. Yeah, I don't think it was good for my relationship with God though.

John Dehlin [03:59:31] Yeah. And so you sounds like you don't believe the Mormon Church is the true church anymore.

Matthew Gooden [03:59:35] No. I will point out a million and one different reasons for why I don't think that is the case.

John Dehlin [03:59:40] Okay. All right. And it can be, you know, we, we did an episode just a couple of weeks ago that 40% of the Mormons raised Mormon in the US have left the church over the past 25 years. So think about that. That's like a million Mormons that were raised in the US as faithful Mormons by Mormon families have left in the past 25 years. That's a lot. Especially when you think that now there's only like 4 million active members worldwide. That's like half of the members in the US who again, were at some point temple, married, missions, whatever, have left. It can't be that this abuse epidemic is not affecting people leaving. Or to say that without the double negative, the abuse epidemic in the church has to be contributing to this massive number of people leaving the church. And y' all are two casualties.

Rebecca Gooden [04:00:45] I think the church works until it doesn't. I mean, I remember when we were raising our kids when they were younger, and everything seemed. Seemed great. I thought, this is a great way to raise kids. You know, there's a community, and we're teaching them good values and. And what could possibly be wrong? And one of my brothers that was not a victim, he. He left the church first, and he said, the church is a horrible way to raise kids. And I couldn't understand it. I said, what do you mean? This is. We're happy. We're doing great things.

Rebecca Gooden [04:01:14] But I remember right after we had to tell the kids that Sean was excommunicated, the first question they asked me was, are we still. Still sealed as a family? And I was devastated that I thought they didn't ask about victims or the lawyers or the jail or they were worried that our whole eternity was in jeopardy because of what Sean had done. And I thought, this. This is not healthy. This is not.

John Dehlin [04:01:48] Yeah,

Matthew Gooden [04:01:51] and do that again. Looking at church teachings, something that had always stuck with me since even before my mission was the teaching of wickedness. Never was happiness. And for me, the inverse had to have obviously been true then.

Rebecca Gooden [04:02:06] Love.

Matthew Gooden [04:02:06] If you're not happy, it must be because you're doing something wrong. Your sadness, your depression, anything like that. Is God punishing you for sinful behavior? And for me, growing up, I dealt with depression, and a lot of it was just seasonal. A lot of it was being a teenager. Lots of stuff going on then.

Matthew Gooden [04:02:27] But part of it came back to this idea of God is punishing me for every little thing that I do to make to mess up. And it's just like, what exactly is it that I'm doing that is so wrong?

Matthew Gooden [04:02:41] I feel like I'm trying to do everything by the book. I feel like I'm trying to be as perfect of a Mormon as the Church has taught me how to be. And it just gets exhausting because of that, because it teaches you that, well, if you're not happy, if you're feeling sad or depressed, the answer isn't to seek help. It isn't to find ways to improve your situation, it's to. Well, it's because you're doing something wrong. We don't know what it is, we don't know it's happened. But clearly you are the person at fault and you need to be the one to change that.

John Dehlin [04:03:12] Yeah, yeah. And those are the implications. And I learned this being basically working as a psychologist to students at Utah State University. And that's just that Mormons have their fair share of depression and anxiety and divorce and abuse and addiction. And there's no evidence that, I mean, around the margins, there's some ways that Mormons can be healthier than average in this way or that. But in terms of the great plan of happiness causing Mormons to be significantly happier than. Than the non Mormons around them, there's just no evidence of that. It's small effect sizes only on average, but not the massive gains you would expect. And y' all were living. Y' all were living proof of living the gospel to the fullest. And then this hurricane tornado happens to you for no fault of your own. Right?

Rebecca Gooden [04:04:19] That's right.

John Dehlin [04:04:20] Yeah. Yeah. In fact, the church, we could argue, made it worse, you know?

Rebecca Gooden [04:04:28] Yeah, I just. The support wasn't there. I just.

John Dehlin [04:04:31] Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [04:04:33] And I know that there's other people like me that are going through this or have gone through this. And if the church really wants to help people, it needs to be better at helping.

John Dehlin [04:04:42] Yeah.

Rebecca Gooden [04:04:44] People like me and my family.

John Dehlin [04:04:47] Well, you know, Mormon Church, if you're listening, we offer. I don't want to speak on behalf of y', all, but like I can say, my heart, my desire isn't to destroy the church, isn't to make the church go away. I don't think the church is going to go away. It's too wealthy and strong and powerful. My heart is not even in embarrassing or shaming the church or area authority hence or whatever. It's literally to have the church change its policies so that less people are harmed. That's my motives. So thank you both. Should I say Eloise?

Rebecca Gooden [04:05:28] Sure.

John Dehlin [04:05:28] Eloise and Matthew, I just want to thank you both for your courage and your strength and your graciousness in being willing to tell your story. Because my hopes is the church will improve its policies after hearing your story and others like you. But even if that doesn't happen, there's going to be a lot of victims that, that feel validated by hearing your experience. And there'll be people who make decisions about how they interact with the church more wisely based on hearing your story. So for all of those reasons, Eloise and Matthew, thank you so much for telling your story on Mormon stories. Any final words?

Rebecca Gooden [04:06:16] No, I think you, what you said is great. I, and I too have never wanted to tear down the church. I really have not said much about the whole situation, but I think that when Hensy was made a 70, I just think people need to know the truth. They need to so that they can make decisions and they can do the right thing.

John Dehlin [04:06:36] Yeah. Matthew, any final words?

Matthew Gooden [04:06:39] Yeah, I think to that effect, I think God wants all of us to be happy. It's one of those things I genuinely believe in. And I think at times God will use the church to help people to be happy. For some people, it works for them. And finding the church and being in the church can really help that person to feel happy and to feel God's love. But that doesn't absolve the church from making its community and in its environment as safe as possible for everyone. And so, yeah, again, I don't want to see the church destroyed. I don't want to see I go away. I want it to be as safe for the people who are in it and who it's working for, to feel the happiness to be able to be safe in that environment.

Guest [04:07:22] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:07:23] Beautiful. All right, well, thanks again for telling your stories. It's been beautiful and powerful. Thank you and thanks to all of you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. I dropped this in Julia's lab to do a lot of the preparation work. So a huge thanks to Julia for her work in producing this episode and making it possible.

John Dehlin [04:07:46] Also, Brooklyn helps out in post production, so thanks to her and to Margi and everyone at the Open Stories foundation, including our board. We have to thank our donors. We couldn't do this without our donors. So thank you. If you donate, please subscribe to this channel. Like this episode, share it, comment on it, all those things help with the algorithm. And if you don't donate and you value this type of content and you want to see this type of content, continue, you can go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor or a one time donor.

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John Dehlin [04:08:59] But even if you don't do any of that, we just hope you valued this content and we hope you'll tune in again for more episodes of Mormon Stories in the future. Email us with feedback mormonstoriesmail.com if you want to apply to be on the show, you go to mormonstories.org apply, record a 3 minute video, fill out the application and we are always looking for more people to interview and we're just looking for people that know our audience and have consumed a lot of Mormon stories, have an interesting story to tell and are a good storyteller and have a good sense for why our audience would value your story.

John Dehlin [04:09:39] So please apply and that's it. Thanks again for tuning in. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

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