Episode Transcript
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
The Mormon Times: Monday, December 10
Bill Reel [00:00:02] Welcome to the Mormon Times, your weekly window into the unique intersections of news, history and culture that resonate with the tapestry of Mormonism. So whether you're tuning in from the heart of Utah or joining us from around the world, the Mormon Times starts now. Where news meets insight and the stories of our faith unfold.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:00:23] Hi, everybody. I'm Rebecca Biblioteca and this is the Mormon Times with. We are a weekly Mormon news program where we bring you the news stories and the latest articles that matter in the LDS community. Today is December 10th, it's a Monday night, and we are going to delve into the articles that were top stories of the previous week. So we're going to be talking about a new Rebecca.
RFM [00:00:50] Rebecca, I hate to interrupt into your monologue, but I think it's December 11th.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:00:54] Is it 11th? I'm so sorry.
RFM [00:00:55] It already started with the fake news.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:00:57] Oh, you know what? It's okay. We can edit that part.
John Dehlin [00:01:00] No, I love it. I love it. What's a day amongst friends? What's a day? What's a day amongst friends?
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:07] I'll tell you, like hours I ran. You know, we could have edited that out. Rfm. You didn't have to do that. No, I ran my the Good Book Club yesterday and I had to do a very similar intro where I did say it is Monday, it is December 10th, and I think that's why I did it. So would you like me to begin again?
John Dehlin [00:01:24] No, just keep going. This is fun.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:26] Probably understand that it is Monday.
RFM [00:01:30] Half the audience is going, oh, my God. I just, you know, I forgot to do this thing and I had to do it. And now I think most people would
John Dehlin [00:01:37] have never even paid attention. But keep going, Rebecca.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:39] I actually think nobody's logged on right now because we did start a minute early.
RFM [00:01:43] How many people are watching right now
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:01:45] in this particular episode, which RFM has so kindly corrected me, to know that it is now the 11th. Which reminds me, I need to pay my electric bill. We're going to dive into the top news stories of the past week, including a new apostle being called into the Quorum of the twelve of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I don't think that we expected that announcement quite so soon. So we're going to be talking about that. Also an announcement from Attorney General of Utah, Sean Reyes, who is not going to be seeking another term. That's very interesting. And we're going to be looking at that in depth. And then of course, big weekend at the movies. The blockbuster Book of Mormon movie, the. The Oath opened. And our feminine. Yeah, look at that. Thumbs up, tooth high. Oh, dear.
John Dehlin [00:02:26] Rebecca, our listeners don't know you're being sarcastic when you call it a blockbuster.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:02:30] Well, they'll find out if they stay tuned, won't they? Yeah, I was going to say something like it open to packed theaters. Theaters. Yeah. We'll dive into all that. You're exactly right. And we're going to be talking about who should be voted Person of the year 2023. So I think we'll start. Yes, RFM.
John Dehlin [00:02:49] He's, he's nominating himself.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:02:51] Oh, I thought you were, like, raising your hand. He's nominating himself. We don't do that here. Sorry. I think we're going to kick it right off with talking about our newly appointed apostle. And I think that Bill, you know what? Let me start very, let me backtrack really quickly in case there's anybody on the planet that doesn't know our notable panelists. As I said, I'm Rebecca Biblioteca. We have the wonderful RFM from Radio Free Mormon Podcast and Mormonism Live. There he is. Low crowd rumble. That's right. We have Bill Real, also from Mormon Discussions and Mormonism Live. Bill Real. And of course, John de Lynn from Mormon Stories. That makes up our panel today. So I believe that Bill is going to start off at the top with our discussion on the newly. I want to say elected, but it's not elected. Appointed Apostle.
Panel: The Newly Appointed Apostle
Appointed Apostle and the quorum of the 12
Bill Reel [00:03:36] Excellent. Do you want me to take care of the slides from here, John?
John Dehlin [00:03:40] No, let's go ahead. You just tell me when in advance.
Bill Reel [00:03:42] Let's do it. Go ahead and throw on the next clip.
John Dehlin [00:03:45] All right. Can you see it?
Bill Reel [00:03:48] Yep. No, I see that the new apostle being called Elder Patrick Karen called the quorum of the 12. And I've got a little bit of a commentary prepared.
John Dehlin [00:03:57] All right, let's roll the clip.
Patrick Huron Called to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
Bill Reel [00:04:00] Good evening. In a significant development within the LDS Church, Elder Patrick Huron has been called to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, filling the vacancy left by the passing of President M. Russell Ballard on 12 November, 2023. Ballard, who was embroiled in a controversy over his association with Tim Ballard and our, is replaced by a man who seems to portray compassion and empathy. Elder Kieran, 62, a British and Irish national, has been a dedicated General Authority 70 since April 3rd of 2010 and has served as the senior president of the presidency of the 70 since August 2020. Born in Carlisle, England, he faced a unique upbringing in the United Kingdom and the Middle East. Raised in Saudi Arabia, separated from his parents at age 10, Kieran's formative years left lasting insights that shaped his ministry. Introduced to the LDS Church in California, he joined in 1987 and his journey led him through various industries, including communications and public affairs. As we all get to know Kieran, it occurs to me that he is a complex figure. Known for both his advocacy on religious freedom as well as his commitment to humanitarian and refugee efforts, Kieran has on occasions advocated for the rights of all, especially those less secure. His work with refugees during the European refugee crisis garnered international attention. While serving as president of the Church's Europe area, Huron initiated programs to assist refugees in the area and also let out in the church, working to support existing programs to help them. On December 7, 2023, Elder Kiron was called and ordained as an apostle in the LDS Church, joining the Quorum of the Twelve. Expressing humility, he stated, this sacred call is so daunting and humbling to me. I will need to place all of my trust in the Savior as I seek to become what he needs me to be and to share my witness of his love and light. Unquote While the Joseph Smith paper's website agrees in a footnote that quote the term common consent likely referred to seeking agreement of church members for a particular course of action, unquote Elder Patrick Huron is already the newest member of the Quorum of the Twelve without the act of common consent. Why? Because in an act that reduces common consent and sustaining in the church to essentially worthless in terms of leaders seeking consent before making decisions, Huron was already ordained in a ceremony led by President Russell M. Nelson and other leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Just one more action in a whole line of actions that conveys the Church no longer plays by the very rules it said came from God Himself. To close out my thoughts, I refer to a quote from Chiron himself when
Patrick Huron Called and Ordained as an Apostle
Guest [00:07:25] he said Jesus specializes in the seemingly impossible. He came here to make the impossible possible, the irredeemable, redeemable, to, to heal the unhealable, to right the unwritable, and to promise the unpromiseable. And he's really good at it. In fact, he's perfect at it.
Bill Reel [00:07:49] Patrick Kieron, I hope you are too that you can do this very thing with a faith that has lost so much trust and sacrifice, so much integrity as to call into question at times if it has any redeemable quality left. Is Patrick Huron just one of the boys, or does he have the integrity and fortitude to create good, healthy change? Time will tell. Back to you, Rebecca.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:08:20] Oh, thank you, Bill. Yeah, I've heard really positive things kind of across the board about this choice. People are kind of surprised.
Bill Reel [00:08:27] Good evening. In a significant.
John Dehlin [00:08:30] Sorry, sorry, My fault.
RFM [00:08:31] No one pay attention to that.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:08:33] That's right. And I was gonna say that that clip that you played of his talk, it kind of reminded me of the Impossible Dream, you know, it was a
RFM [00:08:39] totally man of La Mancha vibe, isn't it, Rebecca?
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:08:41] Yeah, it absolutely did. I was kind of humming along, so it was great.
RFM [00:08:44] Reach the unreachable star.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:08:47] I think we could put that talk to music. I think we did. So I think that Bill.
John Dehlin [00:08:50] Wait, can we just give Bill a round of applause for that? Amazing.
RFM [00:08:53] I did. I did a little clap for him.
John Dehlin [00:08:55] Bill was having way too much fun or. Or maybe not enough fun, but that was some serious quality production there, Bill. Way to go.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:09:04] Yeah, it was great. And you're wearing the same shirt. I love it. So I think Bill has a few more items to add about this topic, and then I think we should discuss, because I think especially the consent is of interest.
Richard Scott on Sexual Assault
Guest 2 [00:09:15] Yeah.
Bill Reel [00:09:15] I just want to note that it feels to me, having looked into his upbringing a little bit, but what little we know being shared on Wikipedia and other places and what kind of projects he worked on in his kind of formative years in the church, as he became a leader and begin to sort of wear that mantle within the 70 and then in the presidency of the 70. And he spent considerable time helping the church on the front of religious freedom, which makes some of us a little nervous because sometimes it seems like religious freedom sort of trumps the equality of folks that are on the margins or those who are really vulnerable to being sort of criticized or being treated unfairly. And. But there's some things that I think are a really good tell for us. And the first one, John, if we can put up the image you've got there. This is a letter from 1984. This was the first presence presidency. At the time was Spencer W. Kimball, Marion G. Romney, Gordon B. Hinckley. In this letter in 1984 were the Brethren addressing the question of how much resistance is necessary by somebody being raped for them not to have any accountability. And it's a really strange and I think really deeply unhealthy letter. The crux of the letter, if you want to go to the next. The next image, this was missed in Sunday school. They made a graphic of it, but they took the most important paragraph. They said, it is inconceivable that a woman could be so terrified by mere threats of violence. It is conceivable that a woman could be so terrified by mere threats of violence made by an attacker that her sense of agency would be overpowered, causing her to submit without making a real show of resistance. On this account, it would be difficult, even presumptuous, for another to judge the moral guilt or culpability of a person attacked. But then they have this clause in there, unless, of course, a confirmation comes through the spirit that she is guilty or culpable. So Mormonism sort of says, like, hey, it's not really up to us to judge. And if the Spirit tells a local leader that she's culpable for not having put up enough resistance, you're free then to call her out on it, which really to all of us just seems an insane sort of teaching. And then you have Richard Scott. The strange thing is that that letter seems intended to prevent what Richard G. Scott then Sundays. I think eight years later, if you want to play that clip.
Guest 3 [00:11:46] Adversity, even when caused willfully by others, unrestrained appetite can be a source of growth when viewed from the perspective of eternal principle. The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help you assess your responsibility so that if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise, the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure. Forgiveness can be obtained for all involved in abuse.
Bill Reel [00:12:57] The church has claimed in the past that it's the gold standard on abuse. And we can see here in the 80s and 90s, the church clearly doesn't have a very healthy approach to articulating that when someone is sexually assaulted that they don't have any responsibility and how they decide to not put up any resistance out of fear for their life or the trauma that's going on in that moment, or whether they decide to try to fight for their life and take the risk of being killed. Mormon leaders seem in those decades to be really, they think it's important for them to intervene and to say to some degree what responsibility victims have. And I, I think that's atrocious. And so I just want to point to Elder Kiran and I think that's how they said it on One of the notes there, how it's pronounced, he comes along and he gives a talk where he seems to almost be directly speaking to the past teachings of past leaders and seems to be correcting it with a much healthier framing for the. For the trauma that victims have and in regards to how we frame, how to perceive a victim and the trauma that they receive at the hands of an assailant.
John Dehlin [00:14:13] So should I roll that clip, please? And this was. Do we remember? Do we know when this clip was made? Just for context. Was it a year or two ago, maybe?
Bill Reel [00:14:23] I was just going to look it up really quick.
John Dehlin [00:14:26] Go ahead and look it up. I'll roll the clip and then we can have that maybe.
Bill Reel [00:14:29] Sounds good.
Separation of Sexual Abuse and Misconduct
Guest [00:14:31] If you have experienced any kind of abuse, violence or oppression, you may be left with the idea that these events were somehow your fault and that you deserve to carry the shame and guilt you feel. You may have had thoughts as I could have prevented this. God doesn't love me anymore. Nobody will ever love me. I am damaged beyond repair. The Savior's atonement applies to others, but not to me. These erroneous thoughts and feelings may have been a barrier to seeking help from family, friends, leaders or professionals. And so. So you have struggled alone. If you have sought help from those you trust, you may still be wrestling with ideas of shame and even self loathing. The impact of these events can remain for many years. You hope that one day you will feel better. But somehow that day has not yet come. The abuse was not, is not, and never will be your fault, no matter what the abuser or anyone else may have said to the contrary. When you have been the victim of cruelty, incest, or any other perversion, you are not the one who needs to repent. You are not responsible. You are not less worthy or less valuable or less loved as a human being or as a daughter or son of God because of what someone else has done to you. God does not now, nor has he ever seen you as someone to be despised. Whatever has happened to you, he is not ashamed of you or disappointed in you. He loves you in a way you have yet to discover. And you will discover it as you trust in his promises and as you learn to believe him when he says you are precious in his sight.
Bill Reel [00:16:37] And so I would simply finish my thoughts here by saying that at least on the surface, he appears to be a different kind of leader than what I'm used to. And I have a lot of hope that. That he might be at least one. One prominent person in a line of people coming forward as time goes on that will help the church get on a better path.
RFM [00:17:02] Can I give the pessimistic counterpoint to that? Oh, I guess. Please, yes. Well, we all know that one does not simply walk into Mordor, nor does one simply get promoted into the quorum of the 12. It is because one has shown a lifelong commitment to doing whatever they're told to do by priesthood leaders. That's the only way you get there. You get into the quorum of the 12 not by displaying leadership qualities, but by displaying followership qualities. You do what you're told to do. And I imagine that Elder Kieran will say whatever it is he's told to say as an apostle, regardless of what he said when he was not an apostle. Although I do give him props for taking on Elder Scott and President Kimball and President Hinckley as well, because what he said was, you are not the victim, regardless of what anybody else may have said. And I don't think he was unaware of those other two pronouncements when he said that in General Conference.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:18:10] Yeah, those are valid points, I think. I mean, I. It was hard to listen to those clips. It was hard to watch those slides. That was my era, growing up in the 80s as a young woman. And I definitely had more than one interview where you had to defend yourself. I definitely went to more than one youth conference where you were told the idea, you know, it's better that you come home in a pine box than have lost your virtue. You know, those kinds of things. I think all of us at the group in that era, we were aware of that. So when I heard our newer apostles, I heard. I saw that clip and I did feel for a minute I thought, oh my, oh my, somebody understands. And maybe they are trying to undo what was done before because we think that's in the past. But it was fairly recently where someone in conference and I can't remember who it is. I'm sure one of you can use the term non consensual immorality. Non consensual immorality? What does that mean? I mean, those attitudes are still there. So I understand your pessimism, rfm, But I also wonder if they might not be aware that much like a boy band, they need to fill a spot with somebody who would appeal to the more progressive Mormon that would have more ideas like that, be able to share messages like that. I just maybe am not quite as pessimistic. John, what do you think?
John Dehlin [00:19:27] Yeah, well, so many things. I'm so happy to see the better dead than unclean rhetoric, you know, dying a, a death, A slow death, but a death. I'm very happy to see Elder Kieran or however you pronounce his name, advocating for that. I, I'll say that I'm so mixed because on the one hand, like with, with Elder Uchtdorf, I think, or even with Elder Holland before him, I think we are always eager that some new apostle is going to come in and become the innovative voice or the progressive voice or the voice that saves the church. I remember when Boyd K. Packer was, was about to die, how so many progressives were like, this is it. As soon as Boyd K. Packer dies, the church is going to change, you know. And then of course, Elder Oaks and President Nelson just filled right in and continued a lot of the harmful rhetoric that we experienced. And I'm, I'm remembering a quote that Joanna Brooks, someone who I worked closely with at the beginning of the Times of Mormon stories, she said to me once, none of them are going to save us. And I just, at the time I was feeling very optimistic, very bright eyed and, and, and, and optimistic about how the Internet was going to sweep change. But, but in the cases of Holland and, and Uchtdorf, I think she's, and even Packer's death, I think Joanna's prophecy is kind of proven to be true. And what we know, you know, we know that Elder Oaks was, was one of the founding editors of Dialogue magazine back in the late 60s. But by the time you start as a junior apostle, you get your chocolates last. You have to wait until you're a senior apostle to even start to have some influence. And then of course you have to wait till you're at the top by the time you're 20, 30 years in that quorum. I think like RFM said, you tend to just say whatever you need to say to protect the church. So I do think it's interesting that Kieran has a public relations background. Apparently he owned a PR firm before, so he has a PR background. I think there are many of us that miss the Gordon B. Hinckley days when he seemed to have a bit more public savvy. And I think I'd rather have a apostle who has a PR background who will actually talk to the press than what we have now, which is a bunch of apostles that are afraid to even talk to the press. So it would be nice if he could, if he could channel the spirit of Gordon B. Hinckley a little bit. So those are some thoughts I have.
RFM [00:22:07] I think you're right, John. I'd rather have apostles who lie to our face rather than have their PR department do the job for them.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:22:15] You're a purist. Rfm. You're a purist. Now I have.
RFM [00:22:19] Sorry, Rebecca. You'll love this too. Okay, ready? If you have trouble remembering how to pronounce his name, just think back to Star Trek, the original series. William Shatner. Right.
Guest 2 [00:22:29] I. Kieran.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:22:34] That's one of my favorite episodes. Paradise Syndrome. Absolutely. Yep. There. I've added myself as a Star Trek geek. There you go. And you know, I've heard him refer to now as the British Hinckley. So maybe that's a possibility. And I think, Bill, you had a few more, maybe one or two more thoughts on this.
The Kirk vs. The Brinkley
RFM [00:22:50] The Brinkley.
Separation of Oaks and Common Consent
Bill Reel [00:22:52] Just one little thing, which is to John's credit, Elder Oaks, member of founding of dialogue member Steve Bensley said that Elder Oaks told him in regards to President Packer, you can't stage manage a grizzly bear. And what happened? Elder Oaks just became the very grizzly bear he referred to.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:23:13] We all need to keep an eye, that's for sure. Do we want to mention anything about. I thought it was unusual that we just happened to read in the church news. He has already been set apart. He already is an apostle. Has that happened in the past? I'm not really aware.
RFM [00:23:27] Yes, we don't. We don't need no stinking common consent boat.
Bill Reel [00:23:32] It is strange, right? I put it up in my original commentary. There are these old manuals. You've got the Joseph Smith papers project acknowledging it, but that common consent was in its original form was that a leader couldn't actually take over their job in the church until they were presented in front of the common membership for common consent and given a sustaining vote. And now the church has thrown that out and they go ahead and ordain the person and apostle long before, months and months before the next general conference will hit.
RFM [00:24:04] It's almost as if they're presuming that they will get the vote necessary at conference.
Bill Reel [00:24:09] And they will.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:11] And where would they get that idea? Exactly. Oh, all right. Have we talked about our newest apostle enough? Is it time to move on to our next story?
Apostle Death Watch
John Dehlin [00:24:21] I think. Do we all agree there'll probably be at least one or two more apostles called within the next 12 months?
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:27] Yes.
Bill Reel [00:24:27] Probably 13 or 14 in the next five years.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:24:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. I've made that prediction. I call it Apostle Death Watch. I do chat with people about this. Maybe that's not the best way to say it, but yeah. I think so. For sure.
John Dehlin [00:24:39] I guess just. I guess. I guess I'll just say this. It could be a lot worse right there. I think there were other people we were thinking that they might call who in terms of those of us who want to see the church make positive change, like Corbett, for example. Aren't we all glad to see Kieran instead of Corbett for now, at least.
Bill Reel [00:24:58] Or L. Whitney Clayton.
John Dehlin [00:25:00] Right.
RFM [00:25:01] Or Brad Wilcox.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:25:04] Jinx on that one. Well, and, and I've heard people say that this gives the church, again, a more international feel. Right. A more global faith type of a feel. So it makes a difference.
RFM [00:25:14] I can hardly wait till his first. I can hardly wait till his first conference address in April where he gets to introduce himself as. My name is Kieran Elder Kiran.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:25:28] We'll look for that. I'm excited. All right, so let's move on to our next story. And that, of course, is another big announcement from Ben in the news a lot. Attorney General Sean Reyes, Utah's Attorney General. And I think John was going to cover some things about that because he's been in the news quite a lot recently and just came out and made a big announcement.
Utah Attorney General Sean Reyes Won't Run for reelection
John Dehlin [00:25:48] Thanks, Rebecca. Yeah, this is a story that's kind of. I've been watching closely for several years, ever since I did an interview with, with, with Lynn Packer and I saw that he was tracking Tim Ballard and our really closely. And just right at the very beginning, Limb Packer was also tracking Sean Reyes. And so I'll just, I'll give a little bit of history and background and then we could discuss. We're going to play some videos. But, but Utah Attorney General drops reelection bid amid scrutiny about his ties to a sexual assault suspect. So this is basically saying that the main reason he, he dropped out is because of specifically, as I understand it, the lawsuit that tied him specifically to assault. That's, that's an interesting headline from the Associated Press. The headline in the Salt Lake Tribune was attorney General Sean Reyes was won't run for reelection after questionable spending and Ballard friendship. So in that case, it's questioning his spending and his, his friendship with Ballard generically. I also want to highlight a point that the Salt Lake Tribune really wanted to focus on. It says in a byline or a subheading, Reyes becomes the third consecutive Utah Attorney General to leave the office tarnished by scandal. So, I mean, already, already that sort of has us all thinking, freaking Utah. What is your problem with your Attorney generals? Why do you have three in a row who are, who, who are leaving the office in Scandal. This is a photo of, of Sean Reyes with Tim Ballard and of course one of the most disturbing photos I've ever seen in my 20 years in the Mormon Internet. Next to it, a photo that Sean Reyes himself, I believe sent out where he's wearing like a bulletproof vest. It's got like an, our gold patch there and then he's packing heat. And it says in the, in the caption, yes, I do more than attend movies. That's good to know your Attorney General. I can work till 3am Put in 16 hour work days and still speak at events like, and I'm assuming that it says our. So I mean it, we've all known for, for years that it's almost like Tim Ballard was, was the chair of the Sean Reyes reelection campaign. But I also think it's important for people to know that Sean Reyes, you know, the concerns about Sean Reyes have been broader and, and more numerous than just our. In September 2022, the Deseret News, of all places, you know, asked the question why Utah County Attorney General Sean Reyes faces an ethics complaint. This complaint in particular had to do with his involvement in, I guess I would say the stop the steal kind of Donald Trump reelection sort of claiming that in several states that the election was stolen. And I guess there were people who were concerned that he, he should be doing the business of Utah and not running around other states inserting himself in their election counting and that sort of thing. I will just say that that's his right and I think his argument was he was, he was doing that effort as a private citizen sort of on his own time. But, but there were ethics complaints filed and that's my point there another headline again, three years ago, Utah Attorney General in Nevada to help Trump challenge Election Romney Cautions on Calling vote Rigged. So, so that's just, and there's a photo of, of Sean Reyes with Donald Trump. And again that's, you know, that was even at the time, you know, Republican Senator Mitt Romney saying we should be careful about calling, you know, that election rigged. And then for me, my biggest concern with Sean Reyes was once I found out that there was a criminal investigation on Operation Underground Railroad coming out of Davis county. We were all hoping that that was going to be, you know, the way that Tim Ballard and our kind of got their comeuppance. But unfortunately we saw in just earlier this year the Davis County Attorney's office closes investigation into Operation Underground Railroad. And a lot of us were just concerned, you know, why is the federal investigation getting shut down and and for me, and I think for Lynn Packer and others, the question was, could Sean Reyes have possibly used his influence to shut down that federal investigation? I think that was a concern a lot of us were having. And so once, you know, once this O stuff and Tim Ballard stuff comes out, we see headlines like Attorney General Sean Reyes accused of using his office to silence critics. So at least in that case, that's, that's him silencing critics of our. But it shows that he potentially has the power to, to, you know, interfere in things like a federal investigation. So those are the, that's a little bit of the background. For those who don't know a little bit more about the concerns about Sean Reyes over the years, I think we all probably wish him well as a private citizen. We assume that he always had the best motives. But what I wanted to do just for this little segment is play a few clips from a message. He posted a video on YouTube called A Message from Utah Attorney General Sean Reyes. And given all this scandal, you would think that he would just get right to the scandal. It's about a 10 minute video and what I first wanted to do was give everyone a flavor for how he starts. He spends the first half of the video and I'm going to play a little bit of it and then I want, you know, Rebecca, Bill, and RFM to respond to the opening. Okay, so let's, let's roll his video. So it starts with the really nice photoshopped special.
Utah Attorney General Sean Reyes Announces He Won't Run for reelection
Guest 2 [00:32:06] I'm Utah Attorney General Sean reyes, and for 10 years I've stood watch over this state, defending our laws, lives and liberties, protecting our teens from street drugs, vaping, sextortion and suicide, fighting for our communities against predators, human traffickers and abusers, attacking financial frauds and scams that destroy innocent Utahns every year, and standing up to the federal government over vaccine mandates, esg, open borders, or attempts to take more control over our lands, schools, families or freedoms. Serving in this job hasn't been easy. Working long days and many nights traveling up and down the state, flying sometimes to D.C. or other states to lead national coalitions and bring back wins and resources for Utah. But I love it and I love Utah. And after 10 years in office, Utah is safer and stronger than ever. Violent crime is down, convictions are up.
John Dehlin [00:33:07] All right, so I'm just going to go ahead and pause it there. Do y', all, you know, I'll ask two questions. One is like, hey, why not lead with a positive before you have to make the announcement that you're not going to Run for reelection. Everyone would do that. That makes total sense. And then maybe there's a more cynical, maybe negative reaction. Rebecca, I'm curious. What. What you think.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:33:29] I just think everybody's kind of relieved that he's not gonna run. I mean, I felt that way. I was like, oh, no, it's gonna get so ugly if he does run, and who knows what else will come out? Although I guess maybe that would have been an interesting side to it. But. But, yeah, I think most of us saw this coming. And, you know, I know he does have a positive track record on a lot of things like that. But then there are also just so many questionable things like travel expenses. And the involvement with Tim Ballard, I think, is a mix of bag as a person, as many people are. But, yeah, it's interesting. What does anyone else think?
RFM [00:34:02] I think he gets into a little bit of thin ice when he talks about how he has a record of fighting against sex traffickers and predators. He may have been in bed with one of them himself. I'm not sure. The only other note I have is that the 1970s are calling Sean. They want their necktie back.
John Dehlin [00:34:25] So what's that, Bill Rill?
Bill Reel [00:34:28] I'll save my comments for later because I. I think it gets worse before it gets better.
John Dehlin [00:34:31] Okay, well, I'll just share. You know, like, Jimmy 11 writes, so cringy. Anna 313 writes, omg ridiculous. I. Yeah, it's. It. It is interesting. If you start an apology with five minutes of, let me tell you how amazing I am. You know, I. You know, I just thought that was interesting choice, but maybe we would all do it. I don't know. All right, let's go ahead and go to the next clip. This is where Sean Reyes, basically, this is like five, six minutes into the video, and it's where he tells us he will not be seeking another term
Utah Attorney General Announces He Will Not Seek Re-election
Guest 2 [00:35:08] is an issue for me and my family. Leaving a successful business and legal career in 2013 to join government was not easy, but it has been worth every sacrifice. As the son of an immigrant family, from humble beginnings and the first statewide elected minority in Utah history, I'm living proof of the American dream. And serving the people of Utah has truly been a dream and honor for me. That is why I have very mixed emotions about my announcement today that I will not seek a fourth term in office. With the filing deadline in Utah just one month away, I wanted to be clear. I will serve my current term as AG throughout 2024, but will not be running for reelection. I want to thank Governor Herbert for appointing me in 2013 for legislative leaders and others with whom I've worked. And thank you to all of my supporters, donors, volunteers, and friends for your confidence and encouragement over three successful reelections. With your help, we have accomplished so much. Good for. For the state.
John Dehlin [00:36:08] All right, what do you guys think of that? Who wants to go first?
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:36:14] I think that you're right. He did lead. He did lead with quite a bit before he got to the point. And, you know, I feel like he had to make the announcement. He had to let everybody know what was going on. But he definitely prettied it up with a lot of things, a little smoke screen kind of around it. But I feel like it's something he had to do. There's literally no way he could run, I feel. Do you guys feel like that, or could he have tried?
Bill Reel [00:36:38] He addresses it himself, I think, in the next clip.
RFM [00:36:41] Oh, is it the next clip? I just want to say that in spite. Spite of all my smart Al remarks, I do want to show a little bit of empathy for this guy. Okay. Because here's an individual who, as I understand it, was in line and thinking about running for the state Senate. Excuse me.
Guest 4 [00:36:57] Yes.
RFM [00:36:57] The U.S. state Senate seat from Utah, one of the two that was being vacated by Mitt Romney when he resigned. And then he voluntarily gave that up to allow his friend Tim Ballard to run for that position instead. And so now he's gone from vacating or relinquishing his attempt to run for the state Senate seat in Washington, D.C. to Tim Ballard to now resigning essentially from being the Attorney General or announcing that he's not going to seek El re election, which is roughly equivalent. So it's a situation where, oh, how the mighty are fallen. The chickens are coming home to roost. And I'm sure he regrets the day he ever heard the name Tim Ballard.
John Dehlin [00:37:46] Absolutely agreed.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:37:47] Or wrote one of the scenes in Sound of Freedom. Am I correct on that? I thought that I had read that.
RFM [00:37:51] So, yeah, it's not that he didn't do anything that was. That led to this situation. I'm just trying to show a little empathy for the guy. Oh, uncharacteristically. I know.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:38:01] Do you have any thoughts on that, Bill?
Bill Reel [00:38:03] I'm much more interested in the last two clips because I, I think. I think the next one, if I'm not mistaken, is sorta, sort of this strange thing where he feels the need to convince us of something.
Sean Reyes: If I Had Stayed On, I Would Have
John Dehlin [00:38:15] All right, let's. Let's play it. I entitled this clip. I could have won if I stayed on
Guest 2 [00:38:23] I know many of you have asked me to run, pointing to my commanding poll numbers, incumbency, strong name recognition, committed fundraising dollars, and chairmanship of the Republican AGs nationally. Trust me, I do believe I would win. But winning another election would keep me from even more important personal priorities. After much prayer and reflection, I know after one more year in office, it will be time to return to my family without an emergency case or crisis constantly pulling me away. It will be time to get back to clients and law partners. I've accomplished nearly everything I came to do as ag, so I have time for more big cases to file in 2024. And I will work as hard as I always have to promote and protect you.
John Dehlin [00:39:08] Does anybody believe that? He's eager to get back to his clients and his law partners, much less to his family.
RFM [00:39:15] There's always. That's always the BS excuse when somebody's resigning, isn't it? I need more time with my family.
Bill Reel [00:39:21] I'm great. I need more big cases like he just it. And then to tell you, like, I have no doubt I could have won this thing, but I'm not gonna run. It's sort of a silly thing like just drop out and not really address that. I think there's no need to. And the fact that you say I'm stepping down, I'm in the midst of a bunch of stories going on with Tim Ballard and our. My. My name's gonna go through the ringer, but if I would have stayed on, I could have won. It just seems so unnecessary.
RFM [00:39:52] Yeah, 12 years is long enough for me to ignore my family.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:39:58] Yeah, your family always needs you.
Bill Reel [00:39:59] Right?
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:40:00] That's always it. That's what they all say when they get up there. So. And he could have been a contender. That's what I take from that.
Bill Reel [00:40:05] Right.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:40:05] He could have done it and gone
RFM [00:40:06] the distance we have instead of getting a one way ticket to Palookaville.
John Dehlin [00:40:11] I mean, I mean, honestly though, he probably could have won, right? I mean, he's got name recognition. There's a ton of people in Utah who wouldn't care and would have still voted for him anyway. It's possible he could have won, now that I think about it.
RFM [00:40:25] Oh, sure it is.
Bill Reel [00:40:26] The other side running images of him in the our outfit with a gun in his hand.
RFM [00:40:30] Yeah, we're with a. With a name underneath it, Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.
John Dehlin [00:40:35] But listen, Utah is so Republican that I registered as Republican just so that I could vote in the primaries. Because Democrats always lose. Unless we're talking about like Salt Lake City or Park City Republicans always win. So the question is, would he have won the Republican primary? Because he absolutely would have beat any Democrat opponent no matter what photo of him they showed.
RFM [00:41:01] When he resigns, he's not going back into law practice or spending any time with his family. He's moving to Hollywood. He's getting himself a pair of sunglasses. This and he's going to become an executive producer for Angel Studios.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:41:14] You could be right. You could be right. Oh my God.
RFM [00:41:17] Who insist on people calling him Sean Hollywood.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:41:20] Oh, that's funny. Oh my goodness. Do we have one more clip or are we finished with Sean Reyes?
John Dehlin [00:41:25] Oh, we got one more clip. His apology to Tim Ballard's Victims Utah
Utah Attorney General Sean Reyes on Tim Ballard's Sexual Assault Claims
Guest 2 [00:41:32] there's one more important issue I want to address that weighed into my decision. Recently, several of the women who brought civil sexual assault and other claims against Tim Ballard and our came forward publicly disclosing their identities. I thought it was brave, as I knew they risked shaming and retaliation. I asked their counsel if I could meet with them. Over the course of multiple days, I sat with these women and one man, all with their attorneys present. After hearing their stories in person, I believe them and I'm heartbroken for what they've endured and the trauma that they will face their entire lives. I apologized to each of them that my past friendship with Tim Ballard and strong association with our contributed to an environment that made them feel powerless and without a voice to fight back for many years. I cannot give them back those voiceless years, but I intend on spending my last year in office working together with these survivors and any others who come forward so that their voices are heard and they have access to resources and support. I will work to integrate them into a task force or create one so they have a safe way to support survivors and prevent what happened to them from occurring to others separate from my own work with them. They have now contacted the Utah Attorney General's Office or AGO to request a criminal investigation into their claims. I am now recused, meaning I will have no involvement, but my office will conduct a statewide investigation of Tim Ballard, Operation Underground Railroad, the SPEAR Fund or others to determine what criminal conduct occurred, if any, relating to the complaints made now. The existence of an investigation is not itself a determination of guilt. Victim advocates and victim services will be made available to the complainants and any other potential victims that come forward. If you have relevant information or are a victim of a crime, I would encourage you to contact the ago. Like in other cases where I or another member of my team is walled off, we won't Participate. But I am confident the AGO will investigate as they always do, professionally, without bias and in a manner that is fair to all sides. Also, to clarify, I'm not joining the survivor civil cases in any way. They have their own lawyers, claims, and all parties in those lawsuits should have their fair day in court. The most important thing is that I will be involved with empowerment of these survivors. Standing up for victims is one of the reasons I became ag. Giving a voice to the vulnerable is what I've worked hard to do while in office, and seeking justice is what I will do until my last day in office and beyond. It's been a privilege to serve as the Attorney General. Utah has grown and expanded during my tenure leading the nation in so many ways, and the AGO has been crucial to that growth. I've been honored to lead the office during that period. In my mom's native culture of Hawaii, Kamehameha, the chief who united the warring islands, called out in his most famous battle, imua ina poki' I kawai awa awa, meaning come forward and let us taste of the bitter waters of battle. This he said to his male and female warriors as a call for unity in action in the face of challenging odds as he led them to victory. Utah faces its own challenges. But together, united as Utahns, we have many victories ahead of us. Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:45:06] Rfm. Did I hear you laughing audibly? Rfm. Were you laughing?
RFM [00:45:09] That was an eye. Oh. When he started saying. When the great General Hawaiian General started yelling melikaliki maka to his. To his warriors. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. This guy really starting to piss me off.
John Dehlin [00:45:24] Okay, why? Why?
RFM [00:45:26] Let me tell you why. Okay? Because in the same address where obviously he's throwing Tim Ballard under the bus, he says, number one, that all the parties have to have their fair day in court, right? And all this other stuff at the end, which is actually true due process wise. But notice what he says at the beginning. He says, I've listened to them, and I believe them. I believe the victims. That is so inappropriate for any public official to be saying okay, to be vouching for credibility of anybody on any side of an ongoing case. I believe them. I will call them victims. I will call them survivors. But everybody needs to have their fair day in court is what he's saying there, which is a completely mixed and contradictory message. The second half of which is correct in the first half should never have been broadcast.
President Trump on the Tim Ballard Sexual Assault Case
John Dehlin [00:46:20] What do you guys think about him saying that he'll recuse himself and that the investigation will happen. Giving the impression that he supports it, but he's independent, but also that he won't obstruct it. Did y' all have thoughts or reactions to that at all?
Bill Reel [00:46:35] He said, I am recused. And he talked about his. Much of his team being walled off from handling this, this case.
John Dehlin [00:46:43] But do we believe it?
RFM [00:46:45] It's the Chinese wall idea that happens in law firms and can happen in law firms. In a case like this where he is so tight at the hip and a potential defendant and co conspirator with Tim Ballard. No, it should be handled by somebody else. Oh, I don't know, like the Davis County Prosecutor's office. It should be handled by somebody completely different. But here he is now he's getting on the receiving end of some of the complaints, some of the allegations, and now he's saying, okay, my office is gonna, we're gonna do the investigation on this now. Now that I appointed it over to Davis county, who ran a multi year investigation which got shut down under suspicious circumstances in which I may or may not have been involved earlier this year. Now my office is going to do the investigation on this. Don't worry, I'll be, I'll be walled off over here. I won't know what's going on. But if you've got any complaints against Tim Ballard, please call my office and make them right away so I can make sure that they're handled appropriately.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:47:37] When you put it that way.
RFM [00:47:39] Rfm, Isn't that what he was saying? That's what I heard.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:47:41] No, it was. And I was struck by how passionate he was. You know, he was so passionate and so sincere. And I wonder, where was that passion, as RFM said, when the Davis county investigation was going on? Didn't seem to be there.
RFM [00:47:54] Yeah. And on the other hand, I don't know how long he must have shopped to get a suit the off blue shade of color that exactly matches the blue fields on both flags.
Bill Reel [00:48:04] You said, rfm, that I listened to these women and I believe them. But he actually said, after I listened to these women, I believe them. Which sort of implies that, and I think we sort of understand this, that when the story first comes out, everybody who was close to Tim Ballard believed Tim Ballard. And what I think he sort of is having a kind of a Freudian slip and announcing is that before I listened to the women, I didn't believe them. And I'm a huge sports fan. I come from Ohio and a Cleveland Browns fan. The quarterback in Cleveland is Deshaun Watson. He had 26 allegations by 26 different women. Massage therapist who said that in one form or another, they were mistreated with some sort of sexual deviance or sexually assaulted. When 26 women come forward all claiming separately that they are victims of a, of a single person, it probably doesn't take me having to sit down with all 26 to know that something probably happened.
RFM [00:49:01] Let me make it clear what I'm saying here, just in case anybody misunderstands. If you have a police officer, especially a police officer, someone in law enforcement in a criminal trial who goes in there and says, of course he's testifying on behalf of the state who's going to be advocating for the victims of the alleged crime. Right. If a cop goes in there and says, I believe the victims, that's an automatic mistrial. That's going to be thrown out. Now you're going to go back to square one. That's called vouching under the law. And you can't vouch for the credibility of another witness. Why? Because that's up to the jury to determine. The jury is the sole determiner of the credibility of the witnesses. And you can't have any witness going in there and vouching for the credibility of some other witnesses, especially when it's a law enforcement officer, because the jury puts them up on a pedestal and they look at their opinions with greater weight than they would with the lay witness. This is all in the case law, by the way. I'm not just making this up. And so to have the preeminent law enforcement official in the state of Utah saying, I believe these women, I believe these, the, the alleged victims, that is so completely improper. He's doing it for political reasons, obviously, because he sure as hell isn't doing them for legal reasons.
Bill Reel [00:50:19] Great point.
John Dehlin [00:50:21] Yeah. And I, I just think it, it's, it's a little bit troubling that it seems like he did everything he could to obstruct the justice before all the scandal comes out and all the allegations, and then all of a sudden he believes the women. I mean, well, now he's going to
RFM [00:50:39] try and obstruct justice on the other side is all.
John Dehlin [00:50:43] Yeah. And that's. I guess that's not good either way. I guess. I guess I'll end this whole segment with kind of a, a final slide I put together, which is what if. What if Lynn Packer hadn't tirelessly investigated Tim Bow to O. And then what if Vice News and Adam Herbert's of Fox 13 News and others hadn't tirelessly investigated Tim Ballard and our. And Sean Reyes. And then maybe most importantly, what if the women or the whistleblowers, you know, hadn't blown their whistles? I think that Tim Ballard would probably be running for U.S. senate right now and he would probably win and Sean Reyes would go on to become governor or a Utah senator himself someday. And I just, I just think it goes back to the importance of whistleblowers, to the importance of the news media, of journalists and of, you know, media, social media and media in the Utah and in the Mormon sphere, because I'm personally proud to have played a very small role along with all these other really important players and along with all of you here on the panel of helping shines such a strong spotlight on Tim Ballard, our. And yes, Sean Reyes, that this, this, you know, this couldn't be allowed to continue because in any other year, in any other Utah, all of this would have been swept under the rug. I, I think. And so for me, that's important. And I'm just gonna add just as a little plug going back, you know, on the topic of whistleblowers, where we're super excited that we're bringing Chelsea Goodrich on the Mormon Stories podcast this week. And then someone close to her shared the Paul Ridding, you know, negotiation tapes of Paul Ridding from risk management of the Mormon Church meeting with Chelsea Goodrich and her mom to convince, you know, to kind of buy her silence as a victim. And I just wanted to give people a heads up that that's going to be coming out soon. All right, that's it. Thanks for.
What If The Whistleblowers Had Blocked Their Names?
RFM [00:52:51] How much did it cost to buy her? Slyence is what I want to know.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:52:55] I knew you were going to say that.
RFM [00:52:56] I knew you were.
John Dehlin [00:52:57] Is there a misspelling in that?
RFM [00:52:59] Oh, no, not at all. Leave it the way it is and use that. Okay, just run with that.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:53:04] You are checking everything tonight.
RFM [00:53:06] Oh, my gosh. John blinded me by science.
John Dehlin [00:53:09] I'll let, I'll let her know.
RFM [00:53:13] Oh, that nice way to weird science.
Bill Reel [00:53:18] I do that practically every week with Mormonism live. So already true, folks.
RFM [00:53:23] He does.
John Dehlin [00:53:28] Thanks, rfm.
RFM [00:53:29] That's it. Thank you.
You Were More Than a Small Shiner On The Vice Case
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:53:30] Well, I just want to point out that I feel that, John, you were more than a small spotlight on the scenario. And I agree with your look into the future. You can just see step by step how that could have happened. And I remember very early on you were going to do an episode on our and you asked me to try to find some reporters. It was when some early things were coming out in Vice and, you know, some of them at the last minute were nervous and kind of pulled out. People were afraid to broach this subject. People were afraid to podcast about this early on. And you weren't. You did it. You hit it head on. And then, of course, as things unfolded, then others were able to jump on and podcast. So I think you were a big spotlight on that.
John Dehlin [00:54:08] Oh, yes.
RFM [00:54:09] You were a klieg light.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:54:12] We're learning new words. Now. That's a theater term, isn't it? Rfm.
RFM [00:54:20] Yeah, it's the big lights out front.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:54:21] That's right. It's the big lights out front. Much like a premiere or an opening. Right?
RFM [00:54:29] Yeah.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:54:29] Nice segue.
RFM [00:54:31] Oh, wait, I get it now. Yes, very good.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:54:33] Oh, you didn't get. Okay, everyone else got it but you. I'm. I'm surprised. I thought it was a great segue. So the next story that we're going to talk about is the premiere of a new Mormon movie about the Book of Mormon. And I'm thinking maybe we just. Let's show. Let's show quickly the slide, the picture of it. This was called the Oath, and it was produced and written and starred in by Darren Scott, also known as Darren Southam. It premiered in LA the prior week, and then the premiere here in Utah was on. Now, I'm gonna have to say a date. I'm just gonna say this last Friday, so I don't have to say a date. I think that was the 8th, and 600 theaters all across the nation played this movie, which is, as you can probably tell there, about the Book of Mormon. So RFM and I actually, he, of course, went in Washington and I went here in Utah. We watched it. So you don't have to.
The Oath: A New Mormon Movie
Bill Reel [00:55:29] Right.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:55:30] Yeah. He's like.
RFM [00:55:30] I went. I. They already have the sequel in production. It's going to be called Oathbusters.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:55:35] Oath Busters. There you go. Rebecca, by the way, thank you for attributing me. That's very nice. It doesn't.
RFM [00:55:43] Well, you're present and I knew you're going to say it anyway.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:55:45] I would not. I would never call you out. I'll let you have your day. That's it. So we have a couple clips because we. We thought it was very interesting, this movie. There's a lot of nuance to it, and. And it's kind of a fascinating story all around, so.
RFL is So Boring
RFM [00:55:55] Nuanced movie. Surely you jest.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:55:58] No, I. There are. I'm. I'm hoping there's nuance. I mean, what else could explain what we saw? Don't you think?
RFM [00:56:04] No, this. This movie is. Is boring. In fact, it's so boring. How boring is it? It's so boring, you're poisoning the well.
John Dehlin [00:56:13] Let them at least see the trailer.
RFM [00:56:15] RFL is so boring, it makes the temple endowment look like Raiders of the Lost Ark.
John Dehlin [00:56:19] Rod, your Cisco and Ebert, save the review until after. After the trailer. Rfm.
RFM [00:56:24] It's so boring. Mark Twain referred to this movie as chloroform on celluloid.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:56:32] He's got a million of them. You're just gonna have to roll the clip.
RFM [00:56:35] It's the only entire day to come up with these. All right, here's the trailer, the official trailer we'll play.
The Dark Knight Official Trailer
John Dehlin [00:56:41] We're gonna break it up in parts because RFM, he's got 12 jokes per segment of the.
RFM [00:56:46] Even on the poster, notice the main character. The main focus is on Scott or Darren Scott's bicep.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:56:53] That is one bulging bicep.
RFM [00:56:55] Also, the other thing about this is the cast in this. Oh, wait a second. Can you go back there?
John Dehlin [00:57:00] Rm wants to. Wants to keep talking. We gotta play the freaking clip.
The Cast of Zero
RFM [00:57:04] RM first part, because I want you to notice that on the poster that you've heard of, like the huge epics that Cecil be de mil did, you know, A cast of thousands. This has a cast of ones. And in fact, the cast in this is so small that for the poster, they have to duplicate two of the characters in order to make it look like there's as many people as there are. Right. You've got Kirak and Miramani up there on the top, and they are reproduced below. Notice that they're both on the left and on the right. So really, you've got 1, 2, 3. There's five people who are portrayed here, but they put in seven images to make it look like there's even more people than the few there are.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:57:45] Yeah, it's a limited cast. And we'll talk about why after we watch some of the clips.
RFM [00:57:50] Okay.
Salt Lake City Movie Review
John Dehlin [00:57:51] All right, let's roll the first part of the trailer.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:57:59] Father, why do Nephites always win battles? Even when Raymonite so many?
Guest 4 [00:58:11] A new fight only raises the sword in defense and only to preserve life.
John Dehlin [00:58:21] Okay, what was that?
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:58:22] There it is. You want to start? Rfm.
RFM [00:58:26] I don't know how to say this, except, you know, you've got the steel swords and like, I. I went. I drove an hour south because that was the nearest movie theater that was even showing this piece of dreck and had to go south. And it was on a Sunday, so I thought, this is probably pretty good, because any. Any Mormons who might be thinking about watching this movie are probably not going to show up on a Sunday. So it was me and Wendy. We went down there. It was us two in the theater. When we got to the front, it was a regal theater. We got to the place at the Popcorn where they also sell the tickets. We got to have our choice of the. The theater seats, right? Nobody has bought a ticket. We have complete choice of any seat in the entire theater. And we didn't buy them in advance. We're just going down there to the theater and buying them. So we finally get in there, we get past the ticket boys, right? And the ticket boys are there. And I'm sitting there talking to them and saying, hey, I bet we're the only people who've ever come to see this movie. And they're laughing because of course they know this is a dud of a movie, right? And I say to them, I say, you know, you guys should be paying me to watch this movie. So they're laughing. We go in there. One other person finally wandered in. Some lady came in and sat in a row behind us and down away. It's probably not far enough away for her to avoid hearing my. My commentary on the movie as it went through. But it was me, it was Wendy and one other Sabbath breaker in this entire theater on a Sunday afternoon to watch this movie.
John Dehlin [00:59:52] All right.
Rebecca Biblioteca [00:59:54] Yeah. And I've heard obviously here in Utah, the theaters were. Were a little more full. Mine was pretty much a packed house. A small theater, though. But I have heard that nationally there have not been the attendance that perhaps would have been desired. So let's look at the next clip.
Darren Scott Has Changed His Name
John Dehlin [01:00:10] What's that? Who put that up there?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:00:11] I don't know what that is.
Bill Reel [01:00:15] To the below stuff. I just want to know. You guys mentioned his name was Darren Southam. When you saw the beginning trailer, it said it was Great Scott Films named after Darren Scott. But he's changed name, it seems, sort of recently, because this is stuff talking about the oath and his last name. He changes it to Scott, changes the production company to Scott Films, and sort of looked like Rick Grimes from the Walking Dead there in the opening trailer. I was sort of happy, expecting to go, Carl, Carl, Carl.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:00:44] Yeah, we are going to talk about why he changed his name.
RFM [01:00:47] You know, a couple zombies really spice this movie up.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:00:50] Yeah, he did promote this movie at the Firm Foundation Conference, the Book of Mormon Evidence Conference. And he was there on the. On. He was billed there with, as you see, Tim Ballard. So it's true. And promoting this last year in 2022. And we will talk about the name change. So let's play that second clip. I know everyone's dying to see more.
The Book of Mormon: No One Will Remember My Name
John Dehlin [01:01:10] All right, let me add this back. Okay, here we go. Second clip. Never tell you, King.
RFM [01:01:16] Know this, Moroni.
John Dehlin [01:01:18] Blessed father Mahi will tear this world apart.
Guest 4 [01:01:21] I seal this record unto you until
Bill Reel [01:01:23] she finds your secret record.
Guest 4 [01:01:25] And unto he who will one day discover it, unto the world he came
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:01:29] to them, he came to our fathers.
RFM [01:01:31] And all of your lives and your
Bill Reel [01:01:33] fathers and your father's fathers will be erased.
Guest 4 [01:01:38] That yosef of the old world shall
Guest 3 [01:01:40] at long last know yourself of the new.
Bill Reel [01:01:43] No one will remember yosef our name.
John Dehlin [01:01:50] Wow, that's. That's dramatic.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:01:52] It is.
RFM [01:01:53] I like the pirate voice saying, no one will remember your name. I wasn't sure if this was a Book of Mormon movie or an Irene Cara song. Arby, that's a fame reference.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:02:03] It is where she says, yeah, yeah. We couldn't understand that.
RFM [01:02:07] If you remember my name. No one will remember your name. Hawkins.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:02:14] Yeah, it was very strange. I didn't realize there were pirates in the Book of Mormon. Who knows? I mean, they're on. On one of the marquees or the description on Rotten Tomatoes. It's listed as a Hebraic fugitive, you know, runs through the forest. So if there's a Hebraic fugitive, there might also be a pirate.
Guest 4 [01:02:31] We don't know.
RFM [01:02:32] And that's where I added a Hebraic fugitive running through the forest in search of a one armed man or one armed rabbi. That was the line of one armed rabbi.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:02:41] Yeah.
RFM [01:02:41] John, you're looking confused. You get my one armed rabbi joke? No, it's a fugitive. It's a fugitive joke.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:02:49] Yeah, I get that.
RFM [01:02:50] He's a Hebraic fugitive in search of a one armed rabbi.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:02:54] The one eyed rabbi.
RFM [01:02:55] Don't make me explain this any further.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:02:56] I'm sure people in the chat are explaining it to everybody else, so.
RFM [01:02:59] But you know why it is. You know why it is that Billy Zane, who's now found new life in his career portraying King Aaron in this movie, you know why it is he adopted a pirate accent? Right. First off, it looks like he doesn't have it at the beginning, but he sort of develops it later on in the movie. It's I. You get the feeling that his scenes were all shot on national talk like a pirate day, and that's what caused it. But then I thought he. The reason is because of his character. Remember his character's name It's King Aaron, which explains both the pirate part and the Irish accent part, if you think
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:03:37] about it all coming together now. Yes. All right, let's watch our next clip. This is the last one.
The Last of The Mohicans
John Dehlin [01:04:01] Today you pay for all the lives
Guest 2 [01:04:03] you've taken in cold blood.
Bill Reel [01:04:05] Where is the brave general now?
RFM [01:04:11] Is the brave general.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:04:14] I think. Is there one more clip? I think there is.
John Dehlin [01:04:17] There is.
RFM [01:04:18] By the way, the other movie, Rebecca, when we were talking about this earlier and how all they steal from all these different movies at the end scene that what they're replicating there is Boromir fighting against the. The Urukai.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:04:31] Okay.
RFM [01:04:31] And he's. He finally gets beaten down. You know, he's taken out a bunch of them, but they're overwhelming him by force and he's getting these wounds that he finally succumbs to in order to save the life of the two hobbits.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:04:42] Yeah, you could be right. And we also discussed Last of the Mohicans and Gladiators.
RFM [01:04:46] They use the same set. If you can call a natural. A natural cliff and waterfall, a set at the end is Last of the Mohicans, and they should have called it Last of the Nephites. Right?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:04:58] Last of the Nephites.
RFM [01:04:59] So much better than the oath.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:05:01] Yeah, Last of Them.
RFM [01:05:02] Anything's better than the oath.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:05:04] That's better than the Up. So this next clip that you're going to see is kind of the director, actor, producer, he likes to come on. He came on at the beginning of the movie to describe what we would see. He was there at the end of the movie to tell us how we should interpret it. Even in the trailer. This next clip, he's going to describe some miraculous circumstances around which this movie came to be.
Darren Scott Is Extremely Buff In The Book of Mormon
RFM [01:05:25] And don't play it yet. Don't play it yet. Because I just want to notice that on the. Go back, please, we not only get one shot of Darren Scott's mighty bicep, we get two, actually.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:05:36] Yeah.
RFM [01:05:37] In fact, there's no scene in which he appears where we don't get a really good view of his body.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:05:43] There it is.
John Dehlin [01:05:44] All right.
RFM [01:05:44] And that's because.
Bill Reel [01:05:45] You know why?
RFM [01:05:45] You know why it is? Okay, now put me back on. It's because as. As a director, Darren Scott is aware of the fact that he is really very, very built. Right. And he works hard on it. I. One gets the feeling he's probably been spending some time at Tim Ballard's CrossFit gym. So he's. He's worked. He's worked very, very hard on his body. And may have taken a bunch of steroids too. I'm not sure. But obviously he's put a lot of work into his body and he has it in his head that the audience may be wondering, why is Moroni so buff in the movie? So he seeks to answer that question in the movie by going to his own wilderness gym where he actually does curls with rocks, you know, instead of dumbbells, because they don't have dumbbells, but they got big rocks. So he's doing curls with them on his biceps, right? And then so he can do pull ups, he takes a tree branch, which apparently has been cut off of a tree. You don't see him cutting it off a tree. It's up there where, you know, a bar would be. And it's. It's fastened up there somehow. And he's doing pull ups on this, this freaking tree branch. It's like a Rocky montage.
John Dehlin [01:06:54] Is it. Are you saying it's anachronistic? Rfm. Is that what you're saying?
RFM [01:06:59] Well, what part of this movie is not an anachronistic? I mean, they're fighting with steel swords. And like I told Wendy at the end of it, you know, it's 400. It's CE, otherwise known as A.D. it's America. They don't have any steel there. They're fighting with steel swords. And then I said, but, you know, they've been. But according to the Book of Mormon, they've been using steel swords for a thousand years before that. So what the hell, it explains how. Yeah, that's how anachronistic. Absolutely.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:07:27] Yeah.
RFM [01:07:27] He's got to work out because he's got nothing but time on his hands. I mean, this is Moroni, right? Nobody else around. He's going to be working out and he's doing all this stuff. And the other thing is.
John Dehlin [01:07:36] Wait, rfm. Rfm really quickly.
RFM [01:07:38] I'm excited about this movie.
John Dehlin [01:07:40] John, does it make sense to explain the basic plot of the movie so that.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:07:45] No, no, it does. I am going to do that after this last clip.
Let's Talk About The Movie
John Dehlin [01:07:48] All right, fam, let's. Let's let Rebecca talk. Yes, Rebecca talk. And then we'll come back to you.
RFM [01:07:53] Are you saying I'm not letting Rebecca talk?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:07:56] When would that ever.
RFM [01:07:57] I'm sorry. I'm just really excited about this movie and I want everybody.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:07:59] We've been shouting about this a lot. No, and let's forget. He, he carries the golden plates like they're nothing like a purse. He, he. And even the female love interest carries them like. And they weigh 265 pounds. Right? Isn't that what they're calculated to wear? Weigh. So it's interesting. So, all right, let's watch this clip with his explanation of how it came to be, and then I'll go over the plot just a little bit and then some of the other interesting things.
The Oath Movie Trailer
Guest 4 [01:08:21] All right, thank you for watching this trailer. The Oath is an epic tale of survival, redemption, forgiveness, and love. A film I've passionately worked on for 13 years. Two years ago, I suffered a sudden and traumatic near death experience nearly drowning in a bottomless lake. Exactly one month before filming this movie, God saved me. Whatever you believe or don't believe, if you enjoy meaningful cinema, join me and millions of others in theaters December 8th to see for yourself why God preserved my life. To bring you the Oath.
John Dehlin [01:09:03] That's got Chad Daybell vibes, that NDE stuff, but go ahead, Rebecca.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:09:07] Yeah, there are a lot of vibes like that. And, and I, you know, I went to this thinking, oh, it'll be kind of light. I'll be. I'll have some comedy gold to podcast about. But it definitely had some undertones that I later identified as a Tim Ballard, Chad Daybell kind of vibe to it. So the basic premise before we move to the next clip is that this is Moroni, the very last ne. And there's an evil King Aaron and one of his concubines escapes because she's mistreated. Moroni finds her and it really is just a love story in the forest as he teaches her how to read the golden plates. There's a lot of reading, writing paper. Yeah, very anachronistic. Swords play, things like that. So of course King Aaron and his little band of Lamanites come after them to. And you won't believe this, but the girl's name is Bathsheba, of course, one of the few female names available in any script scripture. So her name is Bathsheba and it's all about their life together. And I don't know how many spoilers I should give it, but she comes to sort of a horrible end. And then Moroni, of course, has to fight to preserve the record, and he is also eventually killed. So that's kind of it in a nutshell, but there's a lot more to it. So let's look at our next slide. Do you have anything to add to that plot, rfm or did I? Did I?
The Book of Mormon Story of Moroni and Bathsheba
RFM [01:10:22] No, I have nothing to add to the plot and I'll wait to be called upon for further ridicule.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:10:27] My goodness. Never, never all right, so next slide. So Darren Scott, this is the name of the person that you've seen in the movie. He plays Moroni himself. He wrote and directed it.
Darren Scott in The Book of Mormon
RFM [01:10:36] And yes, this is actually the costume he wears as Moroni.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:10:40] That's right. He's a very well dressed fugitive in the forest. That's right. No, he's always in. In a tunic. And there's such a thing I learned it's called the black tank top phenomenon. And they say that when somebody in Hollywood or who somebody who makes a movie, produces it, directs it, it and stars in it, they usually end up wearing a black tank top for whatever reason. I think we could probably look into this. But in this case, not a tank top but a tight fitting tunic the entire time. So. And a short skirt.
RFM [01:11:08] So he's got a mini skirt going too.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:11:10] He's got a mini skirt. Anyway, so if you can go to the next slide. He is not a stranger to church films. Here he is playing our Lord and savior, Jesus Christ. He has played Jesus. He has played Ephraim and Ephraim's rescue. If any of you saw that, I bet a lot of you did. He's played Rebecca. Yes.
RFM [01:11:28] I'm really just sort of looking at this for the first time. But that lady Mary, is she in the movie
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:11:36] familiar? I don't know. She does look familiar. I didn't look that close when I grabbed the slide, but that's very possible.
RFM [01:11:41] Okay, it's just hitting me now.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:11:43] Yeah, we'll have to look it up anyway. Yeah, he's. He's no stranger to church films. And these are films not produced by the church, but church adjacent. He was in, he played Hiram Smith, I think in Cartridge Carthage. Anyway, he's all over the latter day film landscape. So go to the next slide. So the kind of, the history of this film is that 13 years ago you heard him say this is a labor of love for 13 years. So he started this project, go fund me. The original idea of the movie, this is important to understand, was that it was going to be the other Moroni, Captain Moroni. There's a difference. Captain Moroni, you know, liberty, title of liberty, epic battles, Moroni, Moroni on top of the temple. Moroni wandering around alone. So he was able to raise money. It was a pretty successful Kickstarter. But you know, years went by, it didn't really happen. He created a short called Reign of the Judges and here's. You can, you can see his epic vision because. And I think in that trailer you saw one scene from this Where Captain Moron, I was standing with all of the warriors, you know, in the valley. That's what it was supposed to be. But. But.
The Oath of Captain Moroni
RFM [01:12:51] And that's all you see in the entire movie as well, is this one clip. It's kind of like. It's like Lord of the Rings, really?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:12:58] Yeah.
RFM [01:12:58] The original battle for, you know, between the elves and whatever. But you know what I'm talking about.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:13:03] You love Lord of the Rings. No, but. So anyway, for whatever reason, that movie never came. I'm guessing money. I'm guessing budgetary constraints. This movie, the Oath, is a lot easier to make. It has, I think, maybe about nine characters all together. And they're just kind of in the forest. There aren't any buildings. There's really no infrastructure. And it's just a love story. So a different kind of a story, for sure. I guess we should talk about the name change a little bit. I don't think we have a slide on that. Bill provided that. But he was involved as Bill. Sorry, as Darren Southam in January 6, if you know what I'm referring to. And it seems like right after that, he changed his name to Darren Scott. Do you have anything to add about that scenario? Rfm?
Darren Scott: He Changed His Name
RFM [01:13:46] I think that should throw the FBI off.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:13:48] Yes, I think so. I'm just trying to be subtle, but yes, there was some involvement there in going to Washington D.C. and so after that, he then started DBA doing business as Darren Scott.
RFM [01:13:58] Mr. Southam goes to Washington.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:14:00] That's exactly right. All right, next slide. Let's see what happens next in this very interesting story. Or are we up to the clips? Okay, we're up to the clips. So then we're all getting ready to go to this movie. We know it's. It's going to open. We've been reading about it. We've been seeing if there are reviews out yet. Nothing yet. And then suddenly this very unusual video shows up from him addressing. It's called an open letter to the LDS Church.
Mormon in an Open Letter to the LDS Church (
RFM [01:14:23] And this is just like. I'm sorry. No, this was just like a couple of days before the opening was like Wednesday, maybe the 6th of December. And all of a sudden this comes up in my feed and I'm going, what is this? And is this really an appropriate move on your part, public relations wise?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:14:37] Yeah.
RFM [01:14:38] When you're about to release a movie about the Book of Mormon that at the best you can hope for is that active Mormons, believing Mormons, people who believe in the divine calling of the leadership and the apostles of the LDS Church, will be showing up to watch your movie. Is this the best move to make two days before it opens?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:14:56] Let's watch some of the clips and we'll find out.
RFM [01:15:01] Hello, everyone.
Guest 4 [01:15:02] I hope you find yourselves happy and well. I don't do this very often, but I have something to say and gives me no pleasure to say it, but I've come to the conclusion this is the only way to, I hope, bridge understanding and bring about positive change, specifically within my church.
John Dehlin [01:15:23] That doesn't sound good,
RFM [01:15:26] Raggy. And did you see the garment? I said garment spotting. I meant garment siding. Did you see the garment? Oh, come on, you didn't. What were you looking at on this man that you didn't notice his garments?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:15:36] I was mesmerized by his serious tone. It's piercing eyes.
RFM [01:15:40] Yeah, he can find a long sleeve shirt when he needs one.
John Dehlin [01:15:44] So, Rebecca, what. What were you wanting us to notice from that first clip other than, like, it's a. It's alarming.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:15:49] Yeah, it is alarming because he definitely has something that he's disappointed in from the church. They've done something or not done something that he needs to let them know. You've got to change what you're doing. He wants to make a positive change, which I think a lot of us have said those words before, but yeah, this is an open letter, an open video to the church about something he doesn't think they're doing that they should be doing. So if we look at the next clip, we'll find.
John Dehlin [01:16:12] I'll just say that's not. That's not the way to get a bunch of TBM believers and a lot of sort of underground Mormon money and power and influencers to push your film. You don't start your marketing campaign by saying, hey, brethren, we've got some problems.
RFM [01:16:28] And the main problem is that you're not supporting me enough.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:16:32] That is the problem.
John Dehlin [01:16:33] We'll see. All right, so next clip, Rebecca.
The Oath Director on Why The Church Won't Back His Movie
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:16:36] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:16:37] All right, direction.
Guest 4 [01:16:39] I'm the writer and director of the first major scale epic inspired by the Book of Mormon called the Oath, which releases in more than 600 USA theaters this Friday, December 8th. The Making of the Oath was an arduous 13 year journey involving over 70 souls, nearly all of whom are not members of my church. My public relations, marketing and distribution teams for the Oath are likewise almost all not members of my church. I'm honored to belong to a church that does so much good in a world where goodness is so desperately needed, which is why it's difficult for me to say what I'm about to Say. But as the captain of so many industry professionals laboring diligently to support a film inspired by scripture they do not espouse. I believe they need answers.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:17:37] Yeah. Boy, he is really. Yeah. Now we're not going to show. There's a much larger part to the video where he basically lists. List things that he has seen the church support. Love Loud. What are some of the other ones? Rfm. I can't remember. But he basically goes through a list of things that the church does support. And why not this? Why not the oath?
RFM [01:17:59] Because. Because all these non member people who've worked on his movie deserve an explanation as to why the Mormon Church isn't backing it.
John Dehlin [01:18:06] Yep.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:18:07] His own church.
Bill Reel [01:18:08] Might one possibility be that the church has sort of stepped away. You know, the Book of Mormon claims swords and we all infer metal swords. We infer that there's, you know, a single hill, cumorah. And now the church seems to say like probably two hemispheric model. And now it's a South American.
Guest 3 [01:18:26] Right.
Bill Reel [01:18:27] It feels as though what this guy did was present the Book of Mormon just as it's written. And the church doesn't want anything to do with that.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:18:34] Yep. No, you hit it. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:37] If the church shuts down the Hillmore Pageant and apparently tries to take Moroni off future temples, or at least some temples, you. You would think they wouldn't want some embarrassing, poorly made C Hollywood movie depicting the Book of Mormon as if it were literal history. Right.
RFM [01:18:57] On the other hand, is this a case of once bitten, twice shy for the LDS Church. And they've already been bitten with Tim Ballard and they don't want to be bitten again with Tim Ballard Jr. Which is what this has all the appearances of being, especially when you get to what the oath actually is. And it's Scott, Darren Scott's version of Tim Ballard's the Covenant. The covenant was already taken. So all that's left is the oath. And when you put them together, you get the oath and covenant. And believe me, those discussions have been going on between Tim and Darren.
Bill Reel [01:19:28] And don't think doesn't know who Darren Southam is. Who Darren. You can bet that the Elder Church knows his involvement with January 6th.
RFM [01:19:40] Oh, yes.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:19:41] Yeah.
RFM [01:19:42] And Captain Moroni made an appearance on January 6th. And I also wonder if that had something to do with changing from Captain Moroni. Just dropping the captain. We'll just make it Moroni. Although Captain Moroni does have a couple of cameo appearances in the movie as the guardian angel of Moroni. So I'm used to thinking of Moroni usually as the angel Moroni. That's usually how we encounter him when we're talking about him. Although he was Moroni before he was the angel Moroni, but now the Moroni has his own angel, and his angel is Moroni.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:20:13] Everyone gets an angel.
RFM [01:20:14] I'm not making this up actually, by the way. This is something that you have to sort of guess at. And it wasn't clear to me at all the first time Captain Maroney comes and makes his cameo that that's who it was. It's like, who the hell is this showing up in all glowy and stuff. But by the, by the time we get to the end of it, I just. Oh, that's Captain Moroni.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:20:33] Yeah.
RFM [01:20:34] So the angel Moroni now has his own angel. Captain Moroni is the angel's angel.
Bill Reel [01:20:40] Did he do a handshake to test his, like, where he was coming?
RFM [01:20:43] They did not show it.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:20:46] But again, I think they were trying to add elements of that original movie because the people that invested, they accepted, expected that other movie. This is not that movie. And Bill, I believe you've hit it right on the head. There's almost a naivete in creating a movie like this. It's almost like the church is like, oh, you said that out loud. Dang it. You know, don't say that out loud. It definitely appears in the heartland model. There's a wolf, there's a bear, there's an eagle, there's pine trees. The church is not going to weigh in on that. They don't want to alienate all the people that are on board with the other model. The other thing, of course, that we'll talk about in just a minute is the racism that is portrayed, which was pretty disturbing. And so there are many reasons, I think that the church would just be very hands off on this.
Mormon The Book of Mormon: Racism
RFM [01:21:29] I want to hear Rebecca talk about this because she, she was very, very disturbed by something I kind of took for granted because, you know, it's the Book of Mormon, right? So obviously you got the white Nephite and you got the, the dark skinned Laymanites. You know, props were given by some people for actually casting some American Indians, Native Americans as playing Laymanites. But that's kind of a. A double edged sword, pardon the pun, you know, having authentic Native Americans play their unauthentic selves as laymanites. So they got some props for that. But there was all of this built in racism that you found so disturbing that you couldn't even put words to it for a long time. Tell us about that, Rebecca.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:22:19] Yeah, it was disturbing in that way. Just the stereotype was just incredible. For one thing, Moroni could, you know, he's white, very white, very Caucasian, and he can speak perfect English. And his love interest, Bathsheba, of course, speaks in a broken English, something like you might hear in a 1950s cowboy movie. You teach me learn. Things like that.
RFM [01:22:43] He calls him Pale Face.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:22:45] Yes, exactly. Things like that. That's what I mean, a naivete. Why would you put that in a movie in 2023? And just the idea, the idea. One of the very first scenes, of course, is in the Lamanite court with evil King Aaron. And they have to show what savages they are. So they have, they have two Native American women that are kind of wrestling on the ground. I mean, just these incredible stereotypes. And of course, Bathsheba, she's wearing porn shoulders. She's portrayed as perhaps promiscuous. She doesn't know about modesty, chastity. And of course, Moroni, in order to make her his partner, our feminine joke. It's almost like a My Fair lady scenario. He kind of teaches her, you know, and he gives her new clothes where there's a little cap sleeve. So that's the difference. Just one inch of fabric right there. And she's suitable for a marriage ceremony.
RFM [01:23:34] Then they can have sex.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:23:35] And that would.
RFM [01:23:36] Yeah, once you're modest enough, you can have sex. That's the, that's the message that came across from that scene. Because there's nobody there to marry them.
John Dehlin [01:23:43] No.
RFM [01:23:44] And she, she has the non capped sleeve on her, her skin dress or whatever you want to call it. And you know, and so she's coming on to him because of course he's very attractive as he shows us in every effing scene, with his build. Right. So she's, she's really turned on by him. He, you know, he's compassionate, he's wonderful. He's good looking. And so she, she makes the first move and he runs screaming from the cave. And then he tries to explain to her later why he was screaming because he had taken this oath. And part of that oath is not only to, you know, take care of the plates and bury him, but it's not to have sex with anybody that he's not married to. So they go through the strange process because they can't get married, right? There's nobody there to marry them. So instead of that, she takes the oath and they sort of braid each other's hair. He makes her sleeves just a little bit more modest. And now they can go to town. Now they're married, apparently.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:41] There it is. That's it. I think. I think we can skip the next clip. It's just more of it, and we should. Are you sure? Okay. Yeah. He just kind of almost makes a threat like no other movie will ever be made if you don't support this one, so. Okay, go ahead.
RFM [01:24:54] That sounds like a promise.
Guest 4 [01:24:56] I sincerely wonder how my church experience expects membership excitement for any independent efforts to bring positive awareness to their beliefs when these efforts are completely unsupported by the church organization from which these beliefs hail. The movie industry is like a real estate appraisal. The most comparable film of the recent past will forever be used to judge whether any films like it will be funded and distributed in the future. Stand or fall. The theatrical release of the Oath will determine whether other comparable films that celebrate my church's beliefs will ever be made again. I conclude by expressing my hope and my optimism that my church will yet stand behind the greatest universal effort to build respectful communication, better understanding and civility through the powerful cinematic journey that is the Oath. If not, I fear this may be the last independent effort they will ever see attempt to do so.
RFM [01:26:01] Oh, God. We can only.
Guest 4 [01:26:02] Regardless, thanks for listening and please join us for an unforgettable theatrical experience. December 8th.
RFM [01:26:09] And forgettable to me.
Guest 4 [01:26:10] We'll see you at the theater. That's.
RFM [01:26:12] I think I was traumatized by it.
Bill Reel [01:26:13] That's just the greatest universal effort. That's a big claim. I mean, to build bridges. That's the greatest universal effort.
John Dehlin [01:26:22] Well, can I jump in here real quick?
RFM [01:26:24] Remember.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:26:24] Yes, please. John, we. You know, rfm, we should let these guys who haven't.
Tim Ballard on the Church's Support for His Movie
RFM [01:26:27] John, John, I want to know, have you ever almost drowned in a bottomless lake? I'm. He didn't say where this lake was. I've never actually seen a bottomless lake.
John Dehlin [01:26:39] Yeah, no, that's. That's a great question, rfm. So I'll just say a couple things. Number one is I'm really curious what he was expecting the church to do with his movie. On the one hand, I would think, oh, the church isn't going to support some independently produced movie, but they certainly did support Tim Ballard in our. And. And they really got behind Tim Ballard's movie. So I guess I. I guess I probably. What I hear him saying is, why didn't you support me in my movie like you supported Tim Ballard in his movies? That's interesting. I'll just tell you my. My concern about movie makers, and this is not all Movie makers. But I learned really early in the history of Mormon stories, people would come to me saying, I want to make the Joseph Smith movie and that I would put them in touch with donors and then they would take the money from the donors and just live off the money for months or years and then come back and say, I need more money. And so I think a really predictable grift is to tell people you're going to make a movie. And if it took him 12 years to come out with this schlock, it seems like that's exactly what he did, is he fundraised for over a decade and then came out with this thing. But again, I just think it's bad form to threaten the church, you know, that somehow he's going to be the one that saves Mormonism or saves the church or saves the Book of Mormon. I just think that's not going to get him the result that he wants. Those are some of my thoughts.
RFM [01:28:22] He said a little more respect there. Remember, God saved his life so he could crap out this movie.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:28:27] An NDE is an important part of this because we, everyone's having this, everybody's having an nde. And this ties in again to those vibes that we're feeling, the Tim Ballard, all the Chad Daybell, all of that. This all began because he had a near death experience and God preserved him in order to bring forth this movie. I mean, it has a huge universal mission. So. But we've heard this before, which is
John Dehlin [01:28:51] for those who haven't been following, you know, what we've been trying to cover with the Visions of Glory book with Chad and Lori Daybell, with Tom Harrison. NDEs are a power grab claiming in Mormon, Mormon context, especially among the prepper crowd. Julie Rowe. This claiming of a near death experience is literally saying, I have had special interactions with the divine, so you need to believe and trust me and give me your money more. It's, it's, it's grift, it's a con and it's disturbing.
RFM [01:29:23] It's getting to where there's only two kinds of Mormons in the church anymore. Those with NDEs and those with NDAs.
John Dehlin [01:29:31] NDAs.
Bill Reel [01:29:33] I know we've been dogging on the movie here for whatever, 25 minutes, but
Guest 2 [01:29:37] I actually think it's going to sell
Bill Reel [01:29:39] more tickets now because we talked about it.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:29:41] I, I know if you went to
Bill Reel [01:29:43] the theater and one more person showed up and you were an hour from the closest showing, there's nobody showing up. And the fact that we're just talking about it's going to make a few more more folks go, well, you know what? I'll go check it out.
John Dehlin [01:29:56] It's the Streisand effect. Yeah. Barbara Brown showed me the quantity of Visions of Glory book sales after we started covering Visions of Glory on Mormon stories, and it became like an instant bestseller again within Mormonism just because we were talking about it so much. That's a bummer.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:30:15] Yep. The power of the podcast. That's true. And then the most important part about these of clips is that a day before the movie came out, the video disappeared.
John Dehlin [01:30:23] That that video you just showed was
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:30:25] pulled of him complaining open letter to the church disappeared. That's exactly right. So somebody either talked to him or he thought better of it, but it
RFM [01:30:34] was his wife saw it and said, what the hell you think you're doing? By the way, did you catch the garment finally, the garment glimpse? Did you not? I mean, that was specifically staged garments anymore. That's virtue signaling Mormon style to make sure that you're just a little bit of your garment is showing. Not so much that it looks obvious that you're trying to display it, but enough to where the observant. Rebecca, the observant will notice.
Bill Reel [01:30:59] Well, do you have one?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:31:01] He was not wearing garments under his
RFM [01:31:04] tunic so much as to be obvious.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:31:07] Oh, wow. Because. And I know that because at one point he fell on the ground and his whole little skirt, like, flipped up. We saw more of him than we wanted to see. I don't know if that was by
RFM [01:31:17] design, but because I wanted to see
John Dehlin [01:31:18] more because I'm Mormon Voldemort. I wear black garments.
RFM [01:31:23] Yes, those. Those are an emblem of your priesthoods.
John Dehlin [01:31:25] Empower priestess. Yeah.
The Movie Reviewing
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:31:27] All right, we're done with the clips. Let's move forward just a little bit. I think we're covering it kind of as we go along. So then we all go to the movie, it comes out Friday night, and the reviews start rolling in. 29 on Rotten Tomatoes. Just some different kinds of reviews. These were some funny things on social media.
John Dehlin [01:31:43] And by the way, Rebecca, I think you need to read it because there are people who listen who don't watch the podcast.
RFM [01:31:51] Don't be disturbed by my interruption. I'm just saying that 29 on rotten tomatoes, Remember how many zeros have to offset the Mormons? 100 on Rotten Tomatoes to get it down to 29.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:32:03] Yeah, I think that's true. I'm going to let RFM read it in his movie trailer voice. I think that's much more dramatic. And these, of course, of course, are from social media. Just some funny, funny observations on these.
RFM [01:32:13] By the way, I did want to. I'll try and read it like Billy Zane.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:32:16] Yes, did.
RFM [01:32:17] Okay. And you know Billy Zane, he actually, you could tell he was having fun with his role. You know, the acting in this wasn't overall that horrible. There was worse acting in Star wars, to be honest. But here's a note to Darren Scott. When the best actor in your movie is Billy Zane, you may have a problem. All right, so let's go ahead. And now I'll read it in my Billy Zane voice alone. Hebraic fugitive prepares the world for the coming of the orange messiah, teaches the savages about true democracy and shacks up with a local Jezebel to teach chastity.
The Oath Keeper Review
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:32:59] And we should describe that in this one. Of course, it's kind of referring to his involvement in January 6th. He's wearing a mega hat and it's also called the Oath Keeper. So somebody did that funny on social media. And then the other one just has a few. These are actual lines, at least on the left hand side from actual reviews on Rotten Tomatoes.
RFM [01:33:18] Can you read those, horse Rebecca?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:33:20] Only if I lean in really close. Aggressively. Bad, clunky, dull and undercooked. I can't read that word. Solemn, repetitive and unexciting. And the movie's rubbish. And then somebody of course said that his bishop has said Oscar worthy and a stake president has said sponge worthy. So those were not from Rotten Tomatoes. But anyway, the reviews were not great. They were not good, I will say that. But you know, I do agree with rfm. The acting was not bad and the cinematography was actually fairly good. There were some beautiful scenes, some waterfalls, beautiful country. And the underlying musical score was not bad. It was actually good. Although it was continuous. There was this elevated emotion the entire time. But I will say the acting, the cinematography and the music, you know, not the worst I've heard. It's really okay.
RFM [01:34:11] Which does underscore the fact that a story is important when you're making a movie.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:17] It is.
RFM [01:34:18] A plot is really, really the underlying premise of any story in any movie. And if you don't got that, nothing else is going to help. But I this movie be rubbish.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:31] You heard it from rfm. All right, let's quickly move through the next slides here as we finish covering it. Okay. There were also. This is a clip I think John found right where some.
"Should We Kill It?"
RFM [01:34:39] What is on that woman's nose?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:41] Yeah, it is Christmas.
RFM [01:34:43] It's like she's right. She's playing Apart from Saturday's work
John Dehlin [01:34:48] for those listening. Rebecca, what. What are we about to. To watch?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:34:51] I did not put this clip in here, so I don't know. Someone else added it. I'm guessing it might be reviews as people came out of the theater, but I did not add this.
John Dehlin [01:35:00] Okay. I didn't either, so.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:01] Oh, Bill.
RFM [01:35:02] I guess it got here immaculately.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:04] That is really interesting. Okay, if we don't know what it is, we better not play it. I.
John Dehlin [01:35:08] No, I'm more like, let's play it.
RFM [01:35:10] Okay, take off your shorts.
Guest 3 [01:35:18] Adam,
Guest 4 [01:35:24] As anyone knows, that's followed us the whole time, and you really don't know what it's exactly what it's been like. But she does, and she has supported
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:34] me through this, which is literally the
Bill Reel [01:35:36] only way I could have done it.
Guest 4 [01:35:37] We have four kids.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:35:39] Should we kill it?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:35:40] They talked to somebody. People out in the lobby. But again, not my clip. So I don't know. But I have online. Yeah. Where they're out in the lobby and people are saying, I loved it. I loved it. So, okay, so I'll never be able to read this. Someone else is going to have to do it. But I did read through several of the movie reviews, and this one really struck me. It was actually written by a Native American movie reviewer. Jason, if you pull it back up, we can kind of look at it, because this is one of the themes, of course, that people were really upset. Jordan Mason. Sorry, from Cine Links. So rfm, can you. We're all like, can anybody see?
RFM [01:36:13] Hey, Bill, can you see this? Can you read this for us?
Bill Reel [01:36:15] And I saved talking about this for last because, well, it could easily dominate the whole conversation. And I want to make it clear, the oath was already terrible. Regardless of this next part, it's infuriatingly terrible towards Native Americans. Reminder. I am one. If you're not aware of the Mormon LDS background, the laymanites or the bad guys are Native Americans. They fully lean into the tropes about savage godless people who decimated the righteous Nephites, white people causing their strife here in the Americas. The film does nothing to change this narrative, despite casting actual Native Americans in a number of roles. Yay. I guess instead it doubles down on the casual racism by incorporating a white savior narrative with the forced love story of Bathsheba seeing the light in renouncing her savage ways, a decision which sees God reward her with the pregnancy she's long wanted. I you not. Probably my favorite part, however, comes near the end of the film. During the climactic battle, Moroni stops to lecture the natives about following a false king and how they should renounce their ways. Literally stops mid fight scene to preach at the natives. Worse, it seemingly works as it prompts one of the main hunters to turn on King Aaron and her own brethren, embracing Moroni's teachings of Jesus Christ. It's all terrible. And somehow made worse by the insistence they consulted local tribes to try to be as accurate as possible. The Oath is an aggressively bad historical epic. Sinilinks review by Jordan Mason.
The Oath
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:37:55] Yeah, I thought that said it pretty clearly. And I do know that, as RFM said, there were some Native Americans that starred in it. And one in particular said, I'd like to incorporate, you know, the Blackfoot language in the movie. So there is some authentic Blackfoot language. But again, memo on DNA that has nothing to do with Lamanites. So, I mean, and to me, that's a tragedy. And I think that's part of why the church obviously does not want something like this scene or to support it. Because, again, perhaps naively, those. Those elements are all through it. And so I was pretty disturbed by those. I think RFM was too. Does anyone want to comment any more on. On the racism? And then we'll move to the most disturbing part of the movie.
RFM [01:38:38] There's something more disturbing than racism, you know, there.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:38:41] Well, okay. Equally as disturbing, let's say. Maybe not equally is disturbing. I'll say that.
John Dehlin [01:38:46] Let's do it.
The Book of Mormon Ending
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:38:48] All right. Okay. So then the movie comes to a conclusion. I will say that it's promoted as a family film. He encourages you before the movie and after the movie to book out of theater, take your family. It was gory, wouldn't you say? Rfm? I mean, there's. There's some very disturbing death. And. How would you even describe it? Rfm?
RFM [01:39:07] Well, they take a lot of steps to not show you what's going on. And actually it works effectively, more effectively than if you saw what was going on. Oh, because Bathsheba, you know, she's a bad Lamanite because she went off and had a baby with a knee fight and she'd also run away. So she's got to get killed. And they don't show her getting killed and they don't show what happens to her, but they do show Moroni discovering her body now that he's come back from picking flowers or whatever the hell he was doing while she was getting massacred. And he comes running up to her, and all you see of her is her feet from the back as he's kneeling down and crying and going for the Oscar, in what is way too long a scene of him crying. I think he does a credible job. You know, blood's coming down and all this stuff. And then later in the cave, when he's got the body there and he's mourning and grieving with the allowance of the. The vicious and savage laymanites who are allowing him time to grieve. Right, you go ahead and describe. You tell us what it was that we saw in that scene, Rebecca.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:40:10] Oh, you're gonna make me?
RFM [01:40:11] Well, I'm gonna make you. Yes.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:40:13] We're, like, passing it back and forth. You say it. No, you say it. No, it was very disturbing in that way. And of course, she'd passed away and she had been pregnant. And there was a part where then Moroni lifts the little hand of an unborn baby, you know, a premature baby, which I don't even want to think how it ended up on the ground beside Bathsheba, you know, but of course,
RFM [01:40:31] that obviously been cut open.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:40:32] Okay, I didn't wanna. I did not.
RFM [01:40:34] She'd obviously been cut open. Otherwise she somehow delivers this. This child when she's being butchered. But the fact it's not at the scene where she was butchered and strung up by. However she was strung up. But we know she was strung up because of the bloody feet, but we also know she was pregnant. And then later on, after, he takes the body into the cave, now he's reaching down and pulling up severe close up, right, with his finger or something, Moroni's finger, this tiny little red bloody baby hand around it as he mourns the death of his son, his unborn son, in addition to the death of his wife.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:41:11] Yeah. So again, not the Book of Mormon. Not at all complete.
RFM [01:41:14] Bring your family to see it for Christmas.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:41:16] Bring your family to see it. But of course, that. That act is the catalyst for him to again, take up his breastplate, take up his sword, and he must, you know, go avenge his wife's death and then hide the record. So, all right, this is when it
RFM [01:41:30] becomes a Bruce Lee movie. It's Fist of Fury all over again.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:41:32] Some of those scenes where he's jumping around. Okay, so then it comes to the end of the movie. He comes back on, and he thanks you for watching and tells us how important it is. And if you go to the next slide, then there's a barcode that appears on the screen. And he says, please click on this barcode. We all need to be part of the oath community. We all need to sign the oath. It's really important. So I, of course, took a screenshot. I went there, and it's very interesting. It really is an online oath that they want you to see signed to become of part of the oath community, the children of the oath. It talks about liberty, it talks about protecting the country, all these kinds of things. And this is a copy of one that you can print out from that website and you can hand it out to other people. So RFM had some. I was just very disturbed by this. RFM had some good insight into why this might be seen as disturbing.
John Dehlin [01:42:22] Should we read it first?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:42:24] So if somebody can read better than I can, you can. It's pretty long. If somebody wants to read it, you can.
John Dehlin [01:42:29] I'll read it. Just because I don't want to comment on something they don't.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:42:32] Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [01:42:33] Have a chance to listen to.
Bill Reel [01:42:34] Yeah.
I Signed An Oath To Change The World
John Dehlin [01:42:35] All right. We live in a divided, turbulent world where freedom, truth and goodness are controversial. No people, tribe or nation can long stand that fails to maintain respect for their Creator, for the laws of nature and nature's God, such divine respect being necessary for any society united in goodness, as the absence of virtue leads to the dissolution of society, destruction, anarchy and war. We, therefore, the undersigned, with respect and reverence to the Supreme Judge, make a solemn oath to change the world. We acknowledge such mighty change must begin with ourselves. Therefore, we, the undersigned, make this oath in solidarity with firm reliance on divine providence, seeking these virtues may prevail in our souls. Love over hate, understanding over judgment, common decency over incivility, selflessness over selfishness, sincerity over insincerity, humility over pride, gratitude over ingratitude, honesty over dishonesty, knowledge over ignorance, light over darkness, truth over deception, goodness over wickedness, holiness over unholiness, divinity over
RFM [01:43:43] demons in our own souls, and Mormonism overall.
John Dehlin [01:43:46] And platitudes over platitudes, I'll add to the fulfillment of this solemn oath. We summon the powers of the universe and the divine heritage within ourselves. I have the power. With all our hope for goodness and honor to prevail. And to this end, we pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our future to the betterment of our characters, to the elevation of our societies, and to the building of a better world. Okay, that's it.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:14] And on the surface, you know, those are some good virtues and things they're talking about. But I myself attended Inadvertently Not Knowing and a Tim Ballard rally, and I signed an oath to get ice cream. It's a long story. People have probably heard me tell it before.
RFM [01:44:28] You had to sign an Oath to get ice cream at the premiere. Is that right?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:32] What?
RFM [01:44:33] You had to sign an oath to get ice cream?
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:35] I did. I went to a meeting. It was on 4th of July. I did not know Tim Ballard would be there. I was there to see Friends perform in a musical number and it turned into a huge patriotic rah rah. He came up, he handed out pocket size copies of the Constitution. There was somebody there that had started a patriotic ice cream company. And in order for us to get ice cream, we had to sign a giant oath on a huge parchment on a table.
RFM [01:44:56] These are like ice cream baptisms.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:58] You realize I did it because I like ice cream. But yes, it was one of these things. It was exactly this protect and serve. And so it just has those vibes all over it. The covenant, the oath. And it really is, I believe, about converting to Mormonism. And somebody made. I saw in the chat that Glenn Beck had some. Some kind of similar oath. I think this is something. But. But rfm, you crystallized it very well today when we were talking about it. I did.
RFM [01:45:22] Well, thank you. Because you were just saying how much you were disturbed by it and asking me to articulate why it was. You were so disturbed by it.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:45:28] Yeah, and I just found it to
RFM [01:45:30] be comedy gold, mostly. But you were disturbed by it. And I have to take that seriously because you don't get disturbed by that much. So I just said, well, maybe it's because it's obvious what the message is throughout the movie, but at the end where they have a separate scene with the director coming on as the director and trying to get you to sign this oath. Now the movie very clearly goes from being entertainment to propaganda.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:45:54] Yeah, I think that's it. And those were the tones. And just, just the whole. Having gone through the last couple months with the Tim Ballard era, it just seemed to be one more thing. Almost a 2.0 is kind of how I felt about it. What did you guys think about the oath? I mean, do you see anything?
"The Oath" Review
John Dehlin [01:46:09] The.
Bill Reel [01:46:10] The reviews are now down to 25. You guys said 29. But it's weird if you know, because you guys have experienced this before. But if you go to the. Just the normal everyday people, not the critics, it's all four and five stars because it's all the Mormons who rushed out to watch it and they want to portray it as being a great movie. So people go to see it. But I would expect as a few weeks goes by, the Mormons will have sifted out and you'll start to see that come down But I bet you'll see a dramatic difference between the average folks giving the movie a review, which is again, probably somewhere around four stars, and the rotten tomato critics, which gave it a 25%.
RFM [01:46:50] It's like how Fair Mormon won that podcasting award when you work there, Bill.
John Dehlin [01:46:54] Yeah.
Bill Reel [01:46:55] When they have a volunteer staff that voted hundreds and hundreds of times a day. Yep, yep.
The Oath of Freedom Movie Review
RFM [01:47:00] What did you think of the actual oath itself as opposed to the movie, the Oath that John just read? And John, what are your thoughts about that too, Bill?
Bill Reel [01:47:09] The oath? I. I think it sounds sort of culty to get a bunch of people to make a strange promise about a movie.
John Dehlin [01:47:20] Yeah. And I just thought it was kind of empty platitudes, but not, not very meaty, not very tangible, not very actionable. And I just see a guy who is just desperate to have his movie successful and he's. Instead of just making a top class movie, he's pulling out all these gimmicks to try and make this a social movement. But he didn't start with a movie that was really compelling. I mean, at least people who watched. Was it Visions of Glory? I'm. What was the movie, the Tim Ballard movie? I'm spacing down to freedom. Yeah. At least, at least people who watched Sound of Freedom said it was a good movie. I never saw it, but. But it sounds like this just was a bad movie. So all the oaths and all the admonishments of the brethren just can't paper over a bad writing, bad character development, bad script, bad directing, bad movie.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:48:15] There it is. I think we've covered it. This is our first movie review on the Mormon Times. Maybe there will be more to come. We'll see. And I think we have. If we're done with that topic, I think we are. I think we have one last thing to hit very quick, quickly. And that is if we go to, I think our last second to last slide. There we go.
Bill Reel [01:48:33] Yes.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:48:34] Yep, there it is. So it is the end of the year 2023, and in the Salt Lake Tribune, of course, you have the opportunity to vote for the Utahn of the Year. Last year it was Kyle Winningham, the football coach. And this award has been going on since 1997, where somebody is voted in as the most, most notable or influential can be for good or for bad of the year. And I kind of made a list of some of the ones that might sound familiar. Russell Ballard, Tim Ballard, the Tim Ballard Accusers. They are also nominated. The Black Menaces, Sean Reyes, of course, Mitt Romney, the Southern Utah drag queens. That's a good one. And some things that are inanimate, like the ninth and ninth whale in Salt Lake or pelicans. I thought that was kind of interesting, but the one that, that kind of stood out to me. And I think we can talk about maybe briefly who we might think made the biggest difference this year. The most notable one of the nominees is David Nelson. Does anyone want to describe who he is?
The Utahn of the Year
John Dehlin [01:49:40] I'll just give a shout out. My friend Dave. And Dave is the guy who used to work for Ensign Peak, who became the Inside Peak whistleblower. He's the reason we know about Ensign Peak and the reason why we know that the Mormon church has over $150 billion in cash, real estates, stocks, bonds, investments, etc. And then he went on 60 Minutes this year and, and told his story and just got a lot of visibility into the Mormon Church's massive wealth. So I'm throwing my, my vote behind my. One of my Mormon heroes, David Nielsen. And I, I, I would support other nominations as well, but he's getting my vote. I would encourage any of you who want. I just posted a link to this Salt Lake Tribune page in the comments. Feel free to vote for Dave or anyone else who you think. Anyway, any of you all want to nominate anyone else.
Bill Reel [01:50:35] The names that I recognize for the most part are folks who have had a negative impact in some way. And at least with David, he shined a light on egregious unhealthiness coming from the LDS Church. And I think that at least needs to be recognized.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:50:54] Yep, I think so too. I think David Nelson would have my vote for sure. As far as moving the needle, I mean really far. And, and it's not done moving. I feel like he set a lot of things in motion that we're going to see happening in the coming year. And that's exciting. Anything from you rfm on that?
RFM [01:51:12] Well, not really. I mean, since I'm not listed, I can't vote for myself, but other than that. No, I think, I think David Nielsen, that as far as influence on what's been going on with Mormonism in 2023, it would be hard for me to come up with somebody else who's had more influence. I think, I think that Tim Ballard has had a lot of influence and obviously for the negative, but I don't think it's matched by David Nielsen's influence.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:47] Yep, I agree. Well, I think we did it. And this is our second episode. How does everybody feel?
A New Week: The Mormon Times
John Dehlin [01:51:54] Under two hours. Good job, Rebecca. You got Us under two.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:51:57] We're trying. I talk fast. We're trying for sure. And I think I'd like to tell our listeners and viewers that, that, you know, we're going to do this every Monday at 6 o'. Clock. There'll be different panel members rotating in and out to make it interesting. And especially when we have specific stories where there's a certain person that has an expertise that they can lend to our panel, you'll see that. So you'll see us and others moving in and out and keep an eye during the week. We put this together in real time and so email or communicate with any of us and let us know what you think would be a topic, top story that, that we could share. Because we definitely want this to be what you all want to hear, not just our opinion on what's the top story. So. And maybe one of us can come up with a method that somebody in one place could collect ideas from viewers or listeners. Maybe one of us could do that. But in the meantime, just email us or our different platforms and let us know what you'd like to hear because we definitely want to cover the news that's out there that's relevant to all of you. Do you guys agree?
John Dehlin [01:52:55] Yeah. And I'm just going to add. Please, everybody like this episode right now, wherever you're watching it. Please subscribe to Mormonish Podcast, subscribe to Radio Free Mormon Podcast, subscribe to Mormonism Live, which comes on every Wednesday nights around 6:15 or 6:20 Utah time. Please support and please donate to all these amazing. We didn't do our Brady Bunch thing. Here's this story of a lovely lady, right?
Guest 3 [01:53:25] It was.
John Dehlin [01:53:26] No, please, please donate. Please subscribe to like and donate to to Bill Real Radio Free Mormon and Mormonish Rebecca. Because we need to. We need to have our creators be successful and be sustainable.
Rebecca Biblioteca [01:53:44] Yeah, I think that's it. All right, well, thank you very much from the Mormon Times. We will see see you again next Monday at 6pm Mountain time. Thank you, everybody.
John Dehlin [01:53:53] Thanks, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Good evening, and welcome as we bring you the latest news and stories that matter to the Latter-day Saint community. We have an exciting lineup for you tonight. Tonight we will cover the announcement of new apostle Patrick Kearon. We then turn our attention to the political landscape with breaking news and commentary about Attorney General Sean Reyes. And our last top story revolves around nationwide showing of Mormon cinematic flick “The Oath”
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Show Notes:
- Please donate to Mormon Stories! And THANK YOU to all who have donated!
- Mormon.ish Podcast
- Mormonism Live!
- Radio Free Mormon
- Video – A Message from Utah Attorney General
- The victims of Tim Ballard speak out
- The Oath movie
- The Oath movie trailer
- Book of Mormon Evidence – The Oath
- Ephraim’s Rescue
- Reign of Judges movie
- Darrin Scott IMDB
- An Open Letter to the LDS Church – video with Darrin Scott
- Darrin Southam on January 6th
- Who Should Be Utahn of the Year? Salt Lake Tribune
- Sound of Freedom
Mormon Stories Related
- 1825: Visions of Glory, Thom Harrison, and Mormon Neo-Fundamentalism
- 1826: Mentor to Jodi Hildebrandt, Tim Ballard, Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow – Thom Harrison
- 1820: Tim Ballard’s Alleged Excommunication
- 1765: LDS Donations Misuse on 60 Minutes w/ Mark Pugsley
One Response
I am surprised you guys so under-rate the movie the Oath. Given the budget restraints and the fact the that Moroni’s writings & life are seen as historical inspirational fact. While others see it as a poor fictional tale. If Bill Reel wrote the story I imagine there would be big scene of the library in the Hill Cumorah with all the records Mormon made his abridgement from. And the Sword of Laban, and the “Brass Plates” and more than a glimpse of how the gold pages are made. If RFM wrote the story he would treat it as a comedy/parody. Moroni on a Tapier, with holding a steel bow a his Craftsman’s bag with a cement trowel and ore mining & smelting tools. All the anachronisms he could weave into the story. If John Dehlin wrote the story he would have Moroni meet up with other survivors and create a woke group of homosexuals. Rebecca Bibliotheca I am less familiar with but maybe she could pull together the 2 Cumorah dilemma and have him travel more as the members of the Fellowship of the Ring did always hounded by Orcs (Lamanites). I think you guys should step lightly when criticize other art performers, see how I still hear repetitive rants, ill-placed jokes and sneers, rambling explanations, and over-speaking guests and finishing their sentences. I liked the movie and gave it a mild approaval