Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is December 9, 2025, and today we're answering the question, what happens when a Mormon wife becomes the provider? When the LDS Church's proclamation on the family says that the husband should be the provider and preside, that's what we're going to be talking about today. I am joined by my wife and co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:28] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] And we are so grateful to have in studio Kate Smith. Hey, Kate.

Cate Smith [00:00:34] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] Thanks for joining us.

Cate Smith [00:00:36] Thank you for having me. I'm very excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Yeah, we're really. We loved your story and we're excited to have you. So thanks for traveling here anytime. Really quickly, we want to thank our donors that make Mormon stories possible. We couldn't do it without you. If you're not a donor, the way that you can support us, we don't do sponsorships or product placement. All we ask is that, you know, people sign up for monthly support. So if you value this content and want to see continue, go to MormonStories.org donate and click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. It's always super helpful. Also, if you can like and subscribe and comment because that helps get the word out. Anyway, without any further ado, Kate Smith, anything you want to say before we jump into your story?

Cate Smith [00:01:20] Absolutely. I would like to set a bit of an intention because I know I have some believing family who are going to watch this. And I want to say first off that I wanted to do this A, simply because I wanted to, and I think there's value in that. And B, I believe that story, and specifically Mormon Stories podcast helped me a lot in one of the hardest decisions of my life. And it helped me feel heard, not crazy. And just like that things could be fine.

Cate Smith [00:01:54] And also that I want them to know that I tried really, really hard. I tried really hard to stay and make it work. And it was really hard. And I had to eventually leave for my health. And I'm still here because I left.

Cate Smith [00:02:09] So. And I'm sorry. I know it causes pain to my believing family members who in, like, to my face have been very kind and loving. But I know it causes pain and I want them to know it was very painful for me to leave.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Well, thank you so much for sharing.

Cate Smith [00:02:29] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Yeah. This stuff runs deep, doesn't it?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:32] It does.

Cate Smith [00:02:33] I was bought in all the way. I didn't see my life going any other way other than being Mormon to the very end.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Yeah. Well, we're all on the edge of our seats. So before we talk about the end of your Mormon story, where does your Mormon story begin?

Growing Up Mormon with Pioneer Ancestry

Cate Smith [00:02:49] It begins where most peoples begin. I have pioneer ancestry on my father's side. They settled in the Idaho Falls area. So he grew up deep in the Mormon culture to the point where it was like we weren't allowed to use face cards at home because one person one time said they're not allowed. And my mom grew up in a convert household. Her parents joined the church May 1978, which I find significant. The month before the temple and priesthood ban was lifted. They did not know about it when

John Dehlin [00:03:21] they joined, where was she living?

Cate Smith [00:03:24] She was living in Oregon. No, they were in California.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Okay.

Cate Smith [00:03:27] They first lived in California, and they ended up moving to Oregon because they wanted a bit of a fresh start and a little bit of space from their old life. So they moved up to the Portland area, specifically Lake Oswego.

Cate Smith [00:03:43] And my mom grew up in a household where it was very much like, about Jesus and the temple. I think the. The doctrine of temple ceilings really was attractive to my granny because she lost her mom when she was about 10 or 11, which was obviously devastating, and really wanted to feel a connection to her. My granny had grown up Christian. I don't know which denomination. It wasn't Catholic. I know that it might have been Episcopalian or Luther. Lutheran, one of those.

Cate Smith [00:04:16] But she really wanted religion for her children. And she church shopped for a while and then eventually said, the next time those missionaries knock on my door, I'm letting them in. And she did, and they've been a part of it ever since. And so my mom grew up in, like, a devout believing. But rules were kind of loose. Like, modesty wasn't a big emphasis.

Cate Smith [00:04:40] You could play with your friends on Sunday at our house, but not their house. So just kind of funny things like that. Cause my granny's not really a rule follower, but felt attracted to the church for doctrinal reasons.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:53] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:04:54] So that was like the cultural upbringing of my parents. And then my upbringing was heavier on the Orthodox side. We went to church every Sunday. Family scripture study every day. Family prayer. We went to church even on vacation. We would find a local chapel. The only time we didn't go to church on vacation was during COVID We went on one trip. And let's see how many siblings I have. Three younger. I'm the oldest, and I'm the oldest grandchild on my mom's side as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Okay. So y' all were raised primarily in Oregon.

Cate Smith [00:05:34] Yes. I was born in Provo and at the age of two we moved to Oregon.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] Okay.

Cate Smith [00:05:39] So I grew up there.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] All right.

Cate Smith [00:05:41] And in Sherwood specifically, where I lived, it was very big LDS. There was like 10% population LDS.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] That's a lot.

Cate Smith [00:05:49] Yeah. For outside of Utah. Yes. So people knew us. Our church building was by our high school. They since moved high school, so it's different. But we had a church building by the high school and I did early morning seminary.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:03] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:06:04] I was someone who read my scriptures a lot. Even as a young teen. I would journal as I read the scriptures. I was a seminary class president and just very literal orthodox believer. I was very concerned with doing the right thing. So the For Strength of Youth pamphlet was my guide. And I really was very worried about doing the right thing to the point of like possibly missing out on just some fun as a kid. Because life was very serious to me. It was the test before you went to the afterlife, so I couldn't mess it up.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] I really talk about your fifth grade getting voted.

Cate Smith [00:06:45] Oh yeah. I won one superlative my entire life and it was most likely to be a mom, which is so funny.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] That's ironic.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:53] I didn't know that was one of the things that got voted on. Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:06:58] I don't even remember that being an option. But I won it. And I was so proud. I was like, yes, that is what I want to be. And I wouldn't call myself like a very warm and nurturing person to like everyone I am to the people I really know. So I must have just talked about being a mom all the time in order to get voted for that.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:18] Right.

Cate Smith [00:07:20] So it had to have been just something I always, I always knew I was going to be a mom. And that was my highest calling and my purpose. And I. That's all I wanted.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:31] Growing up, as you kind of witnessed your parents, would you say they were more traditional roles within Mormonism? Gender roles?

Cate Smith [00:07:42] Yes, they were. My mom was a stay at home mom and my dad primarily worked. My mom would occasionally have a part time job to help supplement income. Cause a four kid household is expensive. But yeah, I knew my dad worked and my mom's job was to be home. She was the one who like shuttled us to and from places, made dinner every night. But I did feel that my parents were equal partners and that my dad did not rule with an iron fist. Like my mom had an equal say in what was going on in our home.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:13] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:08:14] And I never felt that my dad pulled out his priesthood card and said, we're Doing it this way because I said so. I never felt that way.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:20] Yep. And do you remember growing up just curious with your mom when she did work? Do you remember her, like having. Being aware of her feelings about that, if she felt okay about it, if she felt remiss about having to work, if it made her less of a mom because she had to? Does that make sense?

Cate Smith [00:08:44] Yes, it does.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:44] If you had any messages that way,

Cate Smith [00:08:46] her message to us was, we just need some extra money and you're at home with dad. Like she would work in the evening. She's like, you're at home with a parent. I love you and I miss you, but we need extra money. So that's what I'm doing.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:59] So practical, like a very practical approach.

Cate Smith [00:09:01] It was very practical. And she did it when I was older and I like a teenager. And I had no concern about it because I was at school and that's when she was working. So I was like, you can do whatever want, whatever you want with your time, Mom. Go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:15] Yeah, yeah.

LDS Messages About Women's Roles and Identity

John Dehlin [00:09:17] So you talk about being proud of being voted most likely to be a mom. What messages did you get from the LDS Church in specifically your high school years about what your purpose and role as a woman would be a Mormon woman would be?

Cate Smith [00:09:34] Absolutely. My role was to get married to a good man and have as many children as I could handle. And that was not only my role, it was my divine design, like ultimate design. And if I did anything that was not that, being a stay at home mom, I was shortchanging myself and my family. And my life was to be in service of others and not to develop myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:05] Right.

Cate Smith [00:10:05] And have wants and needs.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] And was the proclamation on the family explicitly a part of your upbringing?

Cate Smith [00:10:15] Very much so. It came out a month before I was born. So I've always existed under. Yes, I've always existed under its rule. And it was hung up on the wall in my family home. And it was something that we taught. We had lessons about it within our own family, but also at church. And young women specifically harped on a lot about getting married to a good person, keeping yourself worthy for that man, and being a mom when the time came.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] Yeah. Okay. And so your plan, let's just say we stopped you your senior year in high school. What was your plan? You know, the milestones.

Cate Smith [00:11:00] Yes, the milestones were go to college and get married before I graduate college, because if I leave college without a husband, I will not find a good man. And then after I graduated college, I would have children. And after there's like, no end after that. It's just raise children and then be a part of my grandchildren's lives. And that was it. I had no other plans.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] Did you ever get into what your eternal destiny would be as a exalted, you know, celestial being who was part of the one true church?

Cate Smith [00:11:42] Yeah, I knew that I would be if I made it to the celestial kingdom. I knew I would be a co creator of some sort of Earth, but I didn't. And I knew that I would help populate that Earth. The mechanics of that, not really sure, but. And I didn't really think about polygamy in the afterlife because I thought it only applied if my husband actually married someone else while on Earth. But honestly, because the female experience in the afterlife is not talked about in Mormonism a lot, I didn't give it a lot of thought. I've always been placing myself in the male experience.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:22] Yeah, that's powerful.

Cate Smith [00:12:23] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:25] I'm curious, during your kind of teen years, when you're hearing all these messages, were you fully in line or was there a part of you? I'm curious if you were kind of merged with the conditioning at this point or if you were like, ugh, that seems hard, or. I would really like to like, how did you feel about what you were hearing?

Cate Smith [00:12:50] I felt aligned with it for the most part. I felt that it made sense and that's what I wanted. I did have three months that I dreamed of something different for myself. After I graduated high school, I thought, you know what? I feel like it's pretty young to get married in college. I think I'd like to, you know, graduate college and live on my own and decorate an apartment in this really cute, feminine way and have a cat and just kind of be myself before I live in service of others. And I told this to a family member, and they said, if you wait to get married, you will not marry a good man. The chances are so slim. So I put it away, and as soon as I got to Utah, that's all I did, is I looked for the right man.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] I can see some emotions coming up for you. Do you want to talk about that? Do you want to talk about that at the end?

Cate Smith [00:13:47] No, I'll talk about it. I grieve. I love my life now. I don't want anyone in my family to think that I wish my life were different. But I. I did give up some things because of Mormonism. I gave up getting to know myself at a younger age. I gave up possibly building a life that's a little different. Than what I have because I didn't have the ability to make a different choice, I felt.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:18] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:14:19] And having that choice taken away from me is very painful. I've had to mourn it a lot, and I'd say I'm still mourning it, but would I be doing something different now? Knowing what I know now? The answer is no, because I've gotten to a point where I think if I wanted to do something different, I would. But I like what I have, so I'm continuing on. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] Thanks for sharing that.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:47] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] So. So. Anything else about your pre college years before we go to college?

Getting Married Young and Going Through the Temple

Cate Smith [00:14:56] No.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] Okay. So you were gonna go. Where'd you go to school?

Cate Smith [00:15:01] I went to Utah Valley University in Orem. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] And. What? Yeah. So how'd that. How'd that go?

Cate Smith [00:15:08] It went pretty well. I went in first thinking I would be a labor and delivery nurse because I thought it was a flexible career for being a mom, because that was my goal, be a mom. But then I just reflected on what I was actually interested in and decided to take some other classes. And I took an accounting course and thought, this makes sense. I think I'm going to pursue this. And I think I could do accounting part time after my kids are in school. So I pursued that as my degree. And I met my husband at the end of my second semester of college, and we dated for eight months. Then we got engaged. And we were engaged.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] He was a returned missionary.

Cate Smith [00:15:48] He was a returned missionary, yes. He served honorably and faithfully in England. And he's just a wonderful, really kind person. That's what drew me to him initially, because we were just friends at first. And then I realized, oh, a really kind friend is the kind of person I want to spend my life with. So then I told him, you know, you can ask me out, and went from there. So, yeah. So we were together for 16 months before we actually got married, which is pretty long in Utah. Outside of Utah, that's a short amount of time. But in Utah, people were like, that's a really long time. But like, we paid for most of our wedding. So that was part of it. Also just being older. Like, I was 20 and a half when I got married. I really didn't want to be 19 when I got married.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] Only on Mormon stories is 20 and a half older now, forgetting getting married.

Cate Smith [00:16:44] I know, it's. You're like a child still. So we.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] Y' all were so mature.

Cate Smith [00:16:51] I know. We just knew exactly what we wanted in life. But it was great. I Mean, we had the experiences of, like, living in a really terrible apartment, and we didn't have a car when we were first married. So we, like, hauled our groceries. We walked to church over a mile every week because our church building was, like, a mile away, which is far in Utah. It's usually like two or three blocks. We were in it. And we decided that finishing college was important before having children. We felt financially and our emotional bandwidth could not handle having kids while in school. So that's how things progressed in college. And I was literal, happy, devout believer. Went to church every Sunday, scripture study consistently. Family home, evening felt weird with just two people. So we didn't do it.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:46] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:17:48] We went to the temple often.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:50] So the temple was a big part of your.

Cate Smith [00:17:52] Yes, it was a big part of our relationship. I loved the temple. Oh, I want to back up a little bit to the temple specifically because I decided I wanted to go through the temple like, a month after we got engaged. So we were still, like, six months out from getting married. And I had gone through the temple prep class. I had read Boyd K. Packer's book. I felt ready. And I go in for the interview with the stake president, and I can tell that he's thinking about saying no to me. And I was shocked. I had friends who had tried to go through the temple, and they weren't going on a mission, and they weren't engaged, and they were told no because a woman, culturally, it was believed at the time, a woman should only go through the temple if she were going on a mission or getting married soon.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:40] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:18:41] And because my wedding was so far out, I could tell he was really not sure about saying yes. And I was enraged. I was like, I am ready, and my relationship to a man is the reason you want to say no to what I believe will be the spiritual pinnacle of my life. I was so angry. But he eventually said yes because luckily I had a ring on my finger at the time. And I went through the temple, and it was okay. I thought it was kind of weird in that I thought, wow, this is it. Like, this is the spiritual pinnacle of my life.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:14] Right.

Cate Smith [00:19:18] But I just thought, if I just go more, I'll feel better about it. And I did. I went a lot. So by the time I went to my wedding, I felt very comfortable in the temple. And it was a good day, good wedding.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] But. But you had to go through under the old verbiage, which included the hearkening language. Do you want to talk about that?

Cate Smith [00:19:37] Yeah, it sure did. It said, so my Husband would hearken to God and then I would.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] And his covenants in the temple. Sorry.

Cate Smith [00:19:45] No, please go.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] He would. Go ahead.

Cate Smith [00:19:47] Yeah. He would hearken to God and covenant to God, Whereas I would hearken to my husband and covenant to my husband. But there was this caveat that said, as long as, like, he hearkens to the will of God. So in my mind, mentally, I thought to myself, well, if he's doing something that I disagree with, it's not the will of God, so I don't have to follow it. That's how I got over that one. But it was a little surprising, to say the least.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:12] Yeah. I'm curious, as you're describing your relationship together, how would you describe your partnership? Like, you mentioned talking about having kids and deciding to wait. And do you wanna talk about your partner partnership and how you made decisions?

Cate Smith [00:20:32] Absolutely. It was definitely a partnership. Not my husband calling the shots. He did not make the decisions for us. We made them together. I mean, we were so young and also just figuring out life together, that we were like, how do we buy a car together? And how. How do we move together? And just like the daily life, household chores, even, just fell on the person who was interested. My husband is a good cook and he likes cooking. I let him cook. And. Whereas I'm more interested in the cleaning stuff. So I took care of that a bit more. And that's evolved as our life has changed. But it was more about, what do we both want? And we would always talk about things together a lot and plan, and we both had equal say.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:21] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:21:22] No one ever was like, well, this is what we're doing.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] And what was the purpose of even getting a degree? As a Mormon woman at the time, I know that may sound ridiculous to never Mormons, but not all Mormon women even bother to get degrees. So why were you bothering?

Cate Smith [00:21:41] I was bothering because I actually come from a long line of very educated women. I have a picture of, I believe, a great great grandmother who was attending college in the early 1900s on her basketball team. So that's on my mom's side. And my mom's side was very into education. As you know. Her parents were converts. So my granny, like my granny's dad had like an MBA or like a master's or a PhD. Like, education was very important to our family. And I knew that a college degree would personally edify me, but I also knew that I needed to be able to work in the event that my husband were disabled or died or I got divorced. So it was a backup. It Was a backup to a worst case scenario.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:32] Got it.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] Not like a career or a passion or anything like that.

Cate Smith [00:22:36] Nope. I never thought about what do I want to do 40 hours a week for the rest of my life? I never thought about it.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Because you weren't going to be.

Cate Smith [00:22:44] I wasn't going to do it.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] Breadwitter. No, because the proclamation says what?

Cate Smith [00:22:48] Says that men have to provide and preside and that the women nurture.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] Yeah. Okay. So what'd you study?

Cate Smith [00:22:56] I studied accounting because I could do a little accounting part time job in the future. And I mean, I'm glad I chose accounting because it works with my nature. I like predictability. I like working with maybe spreadsheets rather than people all the time. And it just naturally fit and made sense. So I'm glad I picked something in that sense. Would I say that I wake up every day just like super excited to do accounting? Probably not. I wouldn't call it an absolute passion. But I feel like watching my current manager, I am learning to love it. She's passionate about accounting, thinks it's very exciting. So I'm catching the vision. But I wouldn't say in college I was like, accounting is so cool.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:45] Right.

Cate Smith [00:23:46] When you tell people you're an accountant, it's like the conversation's over. Usually it's not that cool of a career, but I really like it. I think it's a good one.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] Yeah, I think it's a great career and a great degree, but I had to learn that after college.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:03] I think it's interesting that you had this family culture overlay of a degree.

Cate Smith [00:24:11] Yes. Yeah. And I'm very thankful for it.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:14] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:24:14] I always knew that I was going to go to college and finish it. And they did say, try to pick something that can get a job should you need a job.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] I wasn't going to ask this because it's not in your outline, but Julie is curious if it was tough to wait 16 months to get married given kind of law of chastity restrictions and stuff. And you don't. You could also say, I don't want to talk about that. Or not an issue, whatever you want,

Cate Smith [00:24:41] you know, I mean, I wouldn't say, of course we're human. Of course there were some concerns, but I would say the main concern was actually just social pressure that people were like, why are you waiting this long? Like, this is weird. I remember telling someone that our wedding was going to be a couple months before it actually was. And I was like, yeah, I don't really know how we're Going to pay for it. But I think it's the right thing to do. And they say, that's great. That's what you should be doing. And, like, put your trust in the Lord. But then I backed up and said, actually, we need money. So it was more of the social pressure rather than any law of chastity concerns.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] Got it. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:19] Okay. I do want to just ask you, because it feels this way to me in the way you're describing. Feels like you and your husband from the beginning, really created, like, an internal world where you were deciding. Like, I kind of love that you're having conversations about, oh, we are going to wait to have kids. That's kind of off path. And also being very practical about the wedding where it's like, well, we don't. We don't have the money to pay for it, so we need to wait. As opposed to, like, there's some internal. Where you're connecting internal as a couple there that is allowing you to differentiate from this social pressure that you just. You described.

Cate Smith [00:26:07] Yeah, you're absolutely right. I don't think I had ever really put it together like that, But I completely agree. We definitely were making decisions as a couple without regard to a lot of other people's opinions, which was very special. And felt like we were in control of our life.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:27] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:26:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:28] Let's do something.

Cate Smith [00:26:29] That is something I look back on with good memories and happy feelings, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Love it. So, yeah. How did kind of school wind down and career wind up for, I guess at first your husband, but then maybe both of you?

Career Tensions and Becoming the Family Provider

Cate Smith [00:26:48] Yeah, so I actually started college before my husband, so he was a little bit behind in the college path. So I graduated before him probably a year or so before he did. So I actually started a career because I wanted to support him while he was going to school. So I got my first accounting job, like, real staff accountant job here in American Fork.

Cate Smith [00:27:13] And I really enjoyed it. And I. It was like, the first time I really was like, oh, this is what an accounting job is like. And he went to school. He had a little more trouble with studying and school work than I did. It didn't come as naturally to him. So he did better if he was doing school full time and not working. And I started working and providing for us completely in about, I'd say, 2018. So that was only, like, two years into our marriage. I started being the main breadwinner.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] What was he studying?

Cate Smith [00:27:49] He studied to be a history teacher for, like, middle school and high school.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] Nice.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:53] Oh, yeah.

Cate Smith [00:27:55] And it's definitely Naturally suited for him. And he did a really good job when he was doing that.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:00] Wow, that's great.

Cate Smith [00:28:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] Okay, so you're on the track.

Cate Smith [00:28:05] I'm on the track.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] I mean, supporting your husband is a very Mormon thing while he finishes his education and gets his career. Many do that without bothering to get their own education first.

Cate Smith [00:28:17] That's true.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] But I'm liking that. My Mormon brain is liking that you're still on. On the train.

Cate Smith [00:28:24] I know.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Slightly unorthodox, but mostly very orthodox.

Cate Smith [00:28:28] Yes. I haven't deviated too much at this point.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] Okay.

Cate Smith [00:28:32] So as my husband got close to the end of his college career, we knew when he was going to be done. We just said, all right, well, it is time to have children. And we got pregnant easily. And I gave birth like three weeks before he was done student teaching.

Cate Smith [00:28:50] And before I gave birth, six weeks before I had my first child, I was offered a promotion at work. And that promotion meant that I would be making a lot more money than he would as a first year teacher.

Cate Smith [00:29:08] And at first my, my job before that, the salaries were comparable. So I felt like whatever slight step down we were taking, I was like, we're fine. But then when I got the promotion and saw how much more it was, I thought, wow, I don't know if we can pass this up. And then when you're a teacher, they have salary schedules on their district websites, so you can see how much money that they're going to make until the end of their career.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Starts at like 32K, you know?

Cate Smith [00:29:37] Yes. Yeah. At my husband's time, it started at like 38 or 40 and he would top out at 80 after 30.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] 20, 30 years.

Cate Smith [00:29:46] Yes. Your entire career, you're topping out at 80, which at the time felt like a decent amount of money because I was making closer to the 50 mark. But when the, when the promotion came and then I started looking at accounting jobs and I was like, how much do accountants make? And it kind of blew teaching out of the water. And I thought, this doesn't make sense for us to pursue my husband's career. And I said that to him and he said, I would love to be at home with our child. Wow. Because teaching is so hard, especially the first five years, it's very challenging. As you're developing your curriculum, you're basically working lots of overtime figuring out your curriculum and you're just like, it's bone breakingly difficult.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:37] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:30:37] And when he. So he had gone through it, he saw what it could be.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] Soul crushing.

Cate Smith [00:30:41] It was for some, it can be.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Not everyone depends on the personality.

Cate Smith [00:30:44] Absolutely. And it was for my husband a bit. So when I. So. And he's now in it because he did not just student teach, he did the internship program where he was a full time teacher at half pay. And so he knew what it was like to be a teacher. And when he saw the opportunity to stay home with our child, he said, I want to do this. And I knew, logically this makes sense. I'm going to make more money, we're going to live a comfortable life and my husband wants to be home with our child. So we're still doing the right thing. Someone's going to be home with our kid, it's going to be a parent who loves them, but it's not going to be me. So practically I knew it was right. But at this point I probably wept like every day. I was devastated.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] Why?

Cate Smith [00:31:34] Because I lost my dream. I lost what I planned for. My whole point was to be a mom.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] But you were. I mean, okay, this isn't me challenging you, it's me being curious. But you were choosing it.

Cate Smith [00:31:47] I was choosing it.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] So how could you cry over. And I don't mean this is a loaded question. How can you cry over a choice you're choosing?

Cate Smith [00:31:57] This is a great question. I knew in my head it was the right choice, but in my heart I could not. I could not get my head and heart to align because it was all I had dreamed of, it was all I had planned on and I was this close to reaching out and getting it. And it wasn't to be for very practical reasons. It made sense. It made sense for me to work, but my heart was so hurt at not being home with my baby every day.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:28] Yes, that totally makes sense to me. I have a question with regard to your experience of work.

Cate Smith [00:32:36] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:37] Like, did you enjoy your job?

Cate Smith [00:32:41] I enjoyed my job. Yes. I thought it was a good job and I thought I was good at it. And I liked making money. I liked having my work valued monetarily and I liked having people tell me I did a good job and I enjoyed working.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:01] You enjoyed working?

Cate Smith [00:33:02] Yes. I never went to work thinking, I just can't wait until I can be a stay at home mom.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:06] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:33:06] It was just part of the plan to be a stay at home mom. But I did enjoy working at that time.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] Yeah. And what about like personal meaning and fulfillment?

Cate Smith [00:33:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] Aside from job satisfaction, you know what I mean? Like life purpose, meaning kind of stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:25] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:33:25] I think I could confidently say I didn't think my purpose on the Planet was to be an accountant. But I felt that it fulfilled the purpose of providing a good life and giving my husband and I the things we wanted to do and, you know, putting a roof over our head. Like it was a practical decision and I felt naturally suited to it.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:47] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:33:48] So that's how it fit for me.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] And there's a class, there's a type of, let's just say brain, and I'm going to say a woman's brain. Although I think this could apply to men too. There's a type of woman's brain that doesn't enjoy parenting and who, if they are a mom, are actually a better mom when they work full time. Does any of that apply to you either? I didn't really love being a stay at home parent or I will be a way better parent if I'm working full time. Either of those apply to you?

Cate Smith [00:34:27] I would say it applies to me now and I feel like I can say that. But when I was on the cusp of giving birth, I did not understand those women, nor did I relate with them. I thought if you're a mom, you should be home. And I don't understand how you could enjoy working. It was very foreign to me over being with your children at this point. I do believe I'm a better mom because I work and I do believe it's way more challenging to be the stay at home parent because I'm watching my husband do it and it's very hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:00] Yeah, I mean, this makes sense to me why it's hitting you so hard because I do feel like having gone through the young women's program, it's like a crisis of a dream identity.

Cate Smith [00:35:15] Oh, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:15] But that dream identity is current. It's not just the future. It is part of your current identity as your. Even though you're not a mom yet, even though you haven't lived the reality yet. So what I'm hearing from you is kind of that you have a crisis through circumstance.

Cate Smith [00:35:32] Oh, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:33] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:35:34] I had a full blown identity crisis when I went back to work after having my first child. It was just I couldn't let go of what I had lost and I didn't know how to operate in the world as a working mother. I couldn't let go of how I thought things should be done at home. I couldn't let go of how I would spend my time. What I'm missing out on, like mommy play dates with friends. Like that's not gonna happen as often because I'm at work during the work week.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:07] Yes.

Cate Smith [00:36:08] Or just like taking my kid out for a walk during the day. Like I'm not gonna have the type of Life where at 10am I get the stroller out and go for a walk. I'm sitting at a desk instead. And that was really hard to give up.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:20] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:36:21] And I will say that it did impact my marriage because I'm seeing my husband who hasn't planned to be a stay at home dad, who hasn't like planned his whole life to do it. So he doesn't have these certain ideas. And then he's also just a different person. Like the way he operates in our household is different than how I do. And I'm seeing the way he does things and I'm like, I would just do it differently. And maybe you're unhappy because you're doing it differently. And which is like so awful to say. And I've apologized to him a lot about this.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:55] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:36:56] But it was really hard to watch him do it and struggle. And for me to go to work and struggle not being home, like it was soul crushing, an identity crisis completely.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] For him or for you? Or for both of you?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:11] Yes. That's what I'm feeling so deeply for you both is you both are kind of having a juxtapositional experience, but similar.

Cate Smith [00:37:20] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:21] Where the life you planned for years and years and years and the identity that you built and were conditioned to build, you're now in a place where. And if Mormonism is about anything, I mean, a huge part of Mormonism, I think is about the plan.

Cate Smith [00:37:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:38] And now you're completely. You envisioned all these moments as a mom before you. You did not envision this life at a, with a career and at work all day, especially having a child at home. Right?

Cate Smith [00:37:54] Absolutely. He went through the whole, how do I find value in myself when I'm not making money? Because he was taught his value was in making money. And I thought, how do I find value in myself when I'm not at home with a child that I brought into the world?

Cate Smith [00:38:11] And my whole eternal design was to be that mom at home? So finding value in ourselves was really challenging. And then also just figuring out how to make the day to day work, like we just didn't. Even though in our earlier marriage we had always like done what each other naturally wanted to do, it now felt like such a role reversal that we had to have lots of conversations and kind of negotiate and say, what are we gonna do to make this work for both of us? And it involved a lot of flexibility on my part because I'm not a naturally really flexible person.

Cate Smith [00:38:52] For instance, I was the type of person who needed the house clean before I could relax. And then I had a child and thought, if that's the case, I will never relax again because the house will always be dirty.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:03] Right.

Cate Smith [00:39:04] So I had to let it go. And then it just became learning flexibility of letting my husband go on his own journey and figure out how he wanted to do things and let him do it and just support him in it and not be the problem solver for him. Because being the problem solver creates lots of friction.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Let me ask. I'm going to try something experimental. I'm going to play the conditioned Mormon brain talking to you, your late 20something self, as you're trying to decide whether to kind of get off the Mormon train, the orthodox Mormon train, and take this different path of you providing and your husband staying home to, quote, nurture the kids. Is that okay?

Cate Smith [00:39:52] Yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] And you just respond maybe how you would have responded at the time.

Cate Smith [00:39:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Okay. So don't do it, Kate. It's violating the proclamation. The proclamations doctrine. No, no, no. Success can compensate for failure in the home. It doesn't matter if you can go on vacations or even have a mortgage. It's better that you obey the commandments and follow the proclamation than want any material things for your family.

Cate Smith [00:40:25] Agreed. However, I would like to not live an apartment for the rest of my life. And that's really what it came down to, is I want to comfortably live and that's all.

John Dehlin [00:40:36] But Kate, your husband can go back to school and maybe you can, you know, struggle, but you can work just a couple more years till he goes back to school and gets a graduate degree and something else, and then he can find a better career. Maybe he can join an MLM and sell DoTERRA, you know, but there's got to be a way where he can become a provider outside of being a schoolteacher without you having to violate the family proclamation.

Cate Smith [00:41:08] That is totally true. No, it's totally fine. I mean, I hadn't even thought about that. But I don't want more debt and I don't. And my husband doesn't know what he wants to do. So we're stuck here. This is our reality. And the reality is I will make more money right now.

John Dehlin [00:41:27] And he wanted to be a stay at home dad?

Cate Smith [00:41:30] Yes. If he was gonna have to teach or be a stay at home parent, he wanted to be a stay at home parent.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] I mean, that's compelling.

Cate Smith [00:41:38] Yes, that's how difficult teaching was for him. It was very difficult. He loved it. But it was very hard.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] The reality is, in 2025, so many young couples both have to work.

Cate Smith [00:41:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] So, I mean, there's the. The ideal and the doctrine and the teachings for the past 200 years. And then there's a lived reality where if anybody wants a home in 2025, one incomes, unless you're like Wall street sort of level income, you're not going to be able to do it on one income as a Mormon couple in 2025. I think. Yeah, that's what I hear.

Cate Smith [00:42:17] I think it's very true. And from what I can tell, it seems very true. And I guess if we were to go back to that experiment, I would say. But at least one of us is at home with our child. Like, at least we're both doing something. One of us is with the child and one's working rather than both working. Like, any sacrifice to just have one parent at home was worth it. So at least we're getting that part right.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] Good point. Like, yes, the single income can work, but it's got to be a premium job. And you had one and they're not easy to come by. No, that's not a trivial thing. You just turn on and off, oh, you had a premium job career. Now he needs to get one. Like, that wasn't in the cards.

Cate Smith [00:43:00] No. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:01] And I feel like when I remember back to having a child, like, I remember. I don't know if it's just sort of evolutionarily like wiring, but I remember wanting financial stability. Like, there was something about that having a wee, like a little human, where you were like, we got to get it together. We, like, we've got to. And so the. To me, I remember when we had our first child, same like, it was like, how do we get. We need to really be serious about finances. We were in an apartment. We, after we had our firstborn, moved out of the apartment really quickly into a townhome. But it kind of like, I feel like it became very clear in that moment. So I am not surprised at all how clear it became and how financial stability became something that was like a value in that moment.

Cate Smith [00:44:10] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:11] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:44:11] Yeah. I've always valued financial stability, but as soon as my first child showed up, I was like, it actually doesn't matter what I want. Like, it doesn't. We need financial stability, and the route of me working will lead to it.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:23] Yeah.

Navigating a Stay-at-Home Husband and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:44:24] So talk about what it was like to the extent that you're able for your husband to be raised where his confidence would be as the breadwinner and his quote, protecting and providing. And now he's Mr. Mom and you're off at work. And he's dealing with his sense of security or self confidence, knowing now that he's not living the gospel as it's been outlined. And he's been relegated, let's face it, he's been relegated second class status, which is the class of a woman in modern America, which is, I hate to say it, it's kind of a second class status, especially in Mormonism.

Cate Smith [00:45:09] Yes, he felt it. He felt it very strongly. He did feel like a failure. He felt terrible for disappointing me. He saw how sad I was to give up the dream of being a stay at home mom. So he dealt with the full spectrum of emotion and I'm sure there was a bit of embarrassment as well. And he just started to feel very isolated because at church he didn't fit in. Now when people asked him what he did, he'd say, I'm a stay at home dad. And it kind of depended on the age range of who he was speaking to. If they were closer to our age, they're like, oh, that's cool, I would love to do that.

Cate Smith [00:45:53] We had one man in our ward say that and we were friends with them and then if they were like 60 plus, sometimes they would just look at us and then stop talking. Like they just didn't know how to react.

Cate Smith [00:46:08] So we were very isolated and othered. And Trevor, I don't know if he ever said it, but I think he was like, I don't think I'm ever gonna be like an elders corps president or bishop. Like those people have to make money usually. Like, I think I'm never gonna have those callings. He was like, thank goodness. Because he didn't want to be one of those. But yeah. And then also, like mom groups aren't super interested in having like a single dad join.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:36] Interesting. Yes.

Cate Smith [00:46:38] And sometimes when my husband would show up at the park with us.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] You don't mean a single dad.

Cate Smith [00:46:42] Sorry. Like they don't want a dad.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] A man.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:44] A man.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] A man joining a mom group.

Cate Smith [00:46:46] Yes. They're like, that's weird. And sometimes even when my husband would show up at the park and it's all these moms and their kids, they would literally leave because they were uncomfortable with a man there with their child. Which you know, what they do, what they need to do for what, how they feel safe.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:02] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:47:03] But it's like, oh, I really don't fit the Mold. People don't want to be around me. And I'm dealing with the emotions of not fulfilling what I always thought I would do. And I've disappointed my spouse. Like, it was pretty intense.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:17] Yeah, that's heavy.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] Just for the Never Mormons who don't have the context, if you're. Let's just say in 2025, if you're 45 or older, you would have been raised in a church where the prophet of the church gave a speech saying, the woman's place is in the home and women should not work and children will suffer if the woman works and men need to be the providers and full stop, no hesitation, no stuttering, the woman's place is in the home. And that's, you know, that speech was given while I was at BYU to all the church worldwide. So those 40, 50, 60 something people, they're looking at you like that because they're literally interpreting your decisions as disobeying God's prophet. Yes, full stop. Right?

Cate Smith [00:48:11] No question, no question. However, I will say our family was really kind about it. Like, my parents were like, duh, that makes sense. Like, we're totally supportive. Even my grandparents, who are in the older age range, and I was pretty firm with them, I'm like, this is what we're doing. I didn't let them tell me they disagreed, but they've been really good about not disagreeing or telling us that we're making the wrong decision.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:33] Everyone. That's fortunate. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] I wonder if part of that's not being pioneer stock. You know what I mean?

Cate Smith [00:48:38] Potentially. Yeah. Yeah. I'm speaking specifically about my mom's parents who were like, that sounds great, go ahead. But my dad's parents, they were also supportive, even though they're pioneer stock, like raised on the farm situation, they said things like, well, at least one of you is at home. That's what someone always said. At least one of you is at home.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] That's flexible.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:01] I think that's. So this is interesting though, especially around all the pain and the suffering that you're feeling in this moment, because without this, like this Mormon lens, I think there's also a cultural lens. I think it's getting better. But like, there is a cultural aspect to this too, but it's like it's all made up. It is literally all made up. So, like, the fact that you have, you're enjoying your job, you're fortunate enough to have at this moment, particularly too, an ample raise that will make it so you can live comfortably, get out of the apartment, you have A spouse who's like, hey, you know what? I think I'd love to be home with our child and parent our child while you do that. This is like, without all the outside, the Mormon baggage. Amazing.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:59] In any other context, it would be like, thank you for. And particularly, I mean, even more so if your husband, without all this judgment that he comes with of other people, felt like, particularly like, he would be a good stay at home dad. Like, I feel like, characteristically my personality, I might be more nurturing and would really enjoy this time with our child. And you're like, beautiful. Take it. And you know what? I'm feeling the job right now, so I'll go ahead and do that. But it's just interesting how much of the suffering is based on this lens around, oh, no, it's gotta be this way.

Cate Smith [00:50:40] You know, you're absolutely right. And that crystallized for me one day as I was just switching the laundry over. And I thought to myself, I am mentally suffering because of this belief in the proclamation. And if I just don't believe in the proclamation, I will feel better.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:59] You'll be free.

Cate Smith [00:51:00] I will be free. Because at this point, I had gone through a couple rounds of therapy. I had finally figured out acceptance and commitment therapy and how much my thoughts impact my life. And if I just think about it in a different way, I will feel a different way, and therefore life will be better. Like, I can have a thought and hold it loosely and let it go, or I can keep it. And the thought that the family proclamation was true. I was like, this one is making me suffer. I am going to let it go. And I let it go.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] We jumped ahead of ourselves in the story, but it's good. Let's jump back just a tiny bit. I was just gonna say, I'm reminded of the jubilee episode I did where a Mormon apologist told a lesbian woman, you know, I've got a burden. My burden is, you know, you're gay. And my burden is I've got cancer. And the. And the lesbian woman said, being lesbian is not a burden. Like, being lesbian is awesome. The only thing that's a burden is being Mormon and being a lesbian. Right. I'm reminded of that the only thing wrong with being a working mom and having a stay at home dad is being Mormon in that context. Right? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So one quick question before we move about the kind of the crisis point in the unraveling which we've touched on. Julia wanted to know if your children. How many children do you all have right now?

Cate Smith [00:52:30] We have two.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Okay. Julia wanted to know if your children suffered at all not having you home. And a further clarifying question. Did the kids suffer? Like going against the proclamation or even going to church and having other kids ask questions or in any way feeling a shame or a stigma that your family wasn't conforming to the norm?

Cate Smith [00:52:54] So my children did not suffer. They were happy, healthy, and they knew me and loved me. And it was. It felt good. They never felt any sort of shame because of the family proclamation at church, because my son was just under two when we stopped attending, so he wasn't able to. He was too young.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:53:15] So, yeah, I mean, at the point where I'm going to work for the first time with a young child,

Margi Dehlin [00:53:24] I

Cate Smith [00:53:24] felt very emotional about even just nursing. I felt that my child wouldn't know and love me if I didn't nurse them. And so because I was working, I had to use a breast pump, and it was easier for me to just exclusively pump rather than like mix. So I was really nervous my kid wouldn't love me. But I found that my child still knew who I was and loved me and was excited to see me every day. And I felt like everyone was thriving. So we were.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:55] So did that further the crisis a little bit? If your lived experience now too, is, wait, now not only are we in this situation where we're not living the family proclamation, but now we're not and it's going well.

Cate Smith [00:54:12] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:13] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:54:14] I was thinking, wow, one path for all. Like, not real. It doesn't need to be that way.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:19] Yeah.

Cate Smith [00:54:21] Yeah. We were all just doing fine. And so my kids did not suffer. My husband is a great stay at home dad. I'd say he's like more fun than I am. He plans cool activities. They have a really good time together. He definitely. He prioritizes different things because he's a different person and they're having a great time.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] I mean, that's a really important thing to bring out. I think as far as a weakness goes in the family proclamation, it assumes that traits, parenting traits, and professional traits align cleanly with gender, with assigned gender. And the truth is, there are moms that are great at playing with their kids, and there are dads that are great at playing with their kids. And sometimes it's not the same. And sometimes there are dads that have the personalities to do well in the workplace, and sometimes it's moms that have the personality traits to do well in the workplace. And those things aren't distributed by gender either.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] So if you're trying to force someone who's not good with kids to be the mom and the stay at home mom or a dad who's just not cut out for the workforce and to jam them into providing. Why?

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Why? It's just creating stress and havoc. Go with the. It's kind of like supply and demand and basic economics 101. You go with the distribution, with the specialty. You go with the specialty and the proper distribution of skills and talents, and you get the most productive, healthy outcome. Absolutely, I think.

Cate Smith [00:56:05] For sure, for sure. I mean.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] And it's gonna be different for each couple.

Cate Smith [00:56:10] Absolutely, absolutely. My husband, he was in some ways much more naturally nurturing than me. Like at night when it's bedtime, I don't wanna deal with the kids. He is much more willing to get up and comfort a child in the middle of the night rather than I am, which feels like not aligned with the family proclamation. With nurturing. That's supposed to be my specialty, whereas it' more his. So, yeah, let's go with our strengths here.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Yeah, yeah. Makes all the sense in the world. Okay, so you're married, what year?

Beginning to Question the Church

Cate Smith [00:56:46] 2016.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] Okay, so that's just nine years ago. And you're. You're on the orthodox train for how many years?

Cate Smith [00:56:55] Five years.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] So we're at 2021 now.

Cate Smith [00:56:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Covid has happened before. The wheels start coming off the wagon.

Cate Smith [00:57:05] Yeah. So my first child was born in 2021, which with the identity crisis, definitely spurned the wheels coming off.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] This is just four years ago.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] Okay. All right.

Cate Smith [00:57:13] Only four years ago.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] Yeah. So how does it happen?

Cate Smith [00:57:17] Well, I'll say that because the identity crisis was so all encompassing, I did do therapy, which is where I got into acceptance and commitment therapy.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] So you went to a. You were. You were feeling depression, is that right?

Cate Smith [00:57:33] Absolutely. I was feeling very hopeless. Like I was doing the wrong thing in my heart, but in my mind, I knew it was the right thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:41] Oh, it's so hard.

Cate Smith [00:57:42] I just. Luckily I had a really good therapist. He was even Mormon. And he was like, you are a mom whether you go to work or not. You are a mom, and that is great. And your kid's gonna love you and you're gonna be fine. So that was really great. And then I go off to work.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:02] We.

Cate Smith [00:58:03] We ended up moving to Oregon for an even better job than the one I was offered before I gave birth. And that job, I'm still at it. I absolutely love it. And just as things progressed and we were doing fine, like, things were good, I learned these skills in Acceptance and commitment therapy to not hold my thoughts so tightly, to feel my feelings so they could wash over me and be gone. And in that book, it also talks about values. And it said, I did a workbook is what I'm referencing. I don't remember what it's called, but I did a workbook and it talked about values and it said, values are not from an external authority, like a religion. And I remember being like, o what?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:54] They aren't interesting.

Cate Smith [00:58:56] I thought the value was like, love God, obey the prophets. Yeah, exactly. Be obedient, be. Be what Mormonism tells you to be. I thought those were my values. So when I read that, I thought, ooh, that I.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] If I don't know about this therapy,

Cate Smith [00:59:13] I just thought to myself, if it's not from religion, then what are my values? Like, I didn't know. Which was a little, like, destabilizing.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] But weirdly, going back to that moment in high school where you're like, I think I wanna live on my own and have a cat and, you know

Margi Dehlin [00:59:31] what I mean, decorate my own space.

John Dehlin [00:59:34] That was your emerging self that you had to put back in the box.

Cate Smith [00:59:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] You know what I mean?

Cate Smith [00:59:40] Absolutely. So I basic. And what came to me is, wow, this therapy is giving me skills to cope with life. And I have more skills and I'm doing better because of this therapy than because I'm reading my scriptures or praying or going to church. Because my level of worship and belief has stayed the same, but my mental health has tanked and come back up because of this therapy.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:07] Right.

Cate Smith [01:00:08] So what is the church offering me at this point? It was my next thought, if I'm getting skills elsewhere, what's the point of going to church? And then I'm thinking, okay, well, I believe in it. Like, it's a good way to live.

Cate Smith [01:00:25] But then I just became suspicious, so I just stopped reading the Book of Mormon. I was like, I'm not going to read what the church is telling me to read. I'm more interested in what Jesus has to say. So I read the New Testament and I would be like, what did Jesus say about tithing? It doesn't really say much. Does he?

Cate Smith [01:00:44] Render under Caesar what's Caesar's? And render unto God what is God's? And I'm like, well, he's not saying I need to do 10%. Like, why is the church asking for 10%? And then I just became interested in deconstruction in general because I was on TikTok at this point and. But it wasn't Mormonism. Deconstruction. Because why would anyone deconstruct Mormonism? It was like ex evangelicals or people like the Duggars.

Cate Smith [01:01:13] The one that really piqued my interest was Christine Brown from Sister Wives. She had. I watched the show and she went through a divorce. But then after the divorce, she's really started talking about her faith journey a little bit.

Cate Smith [01:01:26] And I listened to a podcast where she talked about it and she didn't want to get into the doctrine, but she said, I didn't like the culture of fear. And I thought, I feel a culture of fear in my church also. Her church and my church have the same founder.

Cate Smith [01:01:41] And I thought, well, duh, she deconstructed because that's not true. Like, very arrogant of me to think that. But it did bother me that it was the same founder. And in fact, I had watched Sister Wives over the years and sometimes I'd have to stop because they would do and say things about mainstream Mormonism that made me uncomfortable.

Cate Smith [01:02:02] But yeah, I just became interested in deconstruction. And they talked about how their lives became so much lighter and freer because they no longer were bound by these beliefs that didn't serve them. So then I just naturally thought to myself, does believing and living Mormonism lead me to my best life?

Cate Smith [01:02:23] Because I already know believing. The proclamation caused me a lot of pain, right? So I consciously stopped believing it long before I started having these questions because it was so painful. So I'm asking, is it leading to my best life?

Cate Smith [01:02:42] And I followed this well known LDS coach and she was like, there's this book called Fowler Stages of Faith. And I thought, interesting. So I picked it up. And so she was LDS and she talked a lot about how she coached a lot of women. And she was just like, we need to stop being so upset that people leave the church. Like they're just not attending. And your thoughts about it are what's making you suffer?

Cate Smith [01:03:10] Not that they're not going to church. So let's just let it go a little bit. And people go through faith journeys. Here's this book. So I tried reading that book. For me, it was a bit of a dense read, like it was a little challenging.

Cate Smith [01:03:25] But I did get to the part where I was like, okay, I see that I've been in level three, stage three, orthodox believer for my whole life, but I feel like I'm entering four where I'm having questions. I think I'm going to emerge out of four with a stronger belief. I'm going to understand this. And I'm going to make it work.

Cate Smith [01:03:51] And then my parents started having some questions and they would say things. And this is when I learned that a family member of mine didn't want to serve a mission. And he was male. And my parents were like, it's fine. You don't have to serve. Like, do what you want.

Cate Smith [01:04:08] And I was like, this is weird. But also, for a long time, I had been thinking, why do we serve missions? The Internet exists. Anyone who wants to know about Mormonism can just go to our webpage. Why are we putting people out here to proselytize?

Cate Smith [01:04:22] I think it's a waste of time. That's what I thought as a believer at that point. So there's these questions coming up. My parents are questioning. And then just to give some context, throughout the years, my husband would drop these little nuggets of disbelief because he struggled with the church for various reasons.

Cate Smith [01:04:43] And he would just. And he studied Utah history because he became a history teacher in Utah. And he said, did you know that there is a lot of freemasonry in the temple ritual? I was like, that's weird. Maybe we just needed something to go off of. That's how I just made sense of that one.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:02] Right.

Cate Smith [01:05:03] Or he said, did you know that in the 1850s, Brigham Young had everyone get baptized again? And I was like, what? What are you talking about? Like, that's weird. He's like, yeah, they did. And I was like, okay, I'm not reading into that because that makes me very uncomfortable. And then my husband would come to me and say, going to church is very painful for me. I don't feel like I fit in. And this is before we had kids, before. Oh, before we really deviated.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:32] Okay, so this is. This is early on.

Cate Smith [01:05:35] Early. He was like, are you still gonna love me if I don't go to church? And I hate to say that I was not very charitable. I. I said, I don't know how I'm gonna function in a mixed faith marriage. I didn't say those words. I wish I had, but I. I was basically, I don't know how to do that.

Cate Smith [01:05:52] And so he would just button it up and not talk to me about it. But every once in a while, he would say, it's very painful for me to go to church. Just even for simple, like, personality reasons. Like, my husband is not an extrovert, he's an introvert. And the church really values extroverts and is like, wow, you're a great member missionary. You're good at volunteering for everything.

Cate Smith [01:06:14] My husband didn't enjoy passing the sacraments because he didn't like see people watching him. And when he'd say no, he felt a lot of shame because saying no to passing usually signals you're doing something wrong, but that wasn't it and he just didn't like doing it.

Cate Smith [01:06:31] So I knew that my husband had questions. And now I'm watching my parents actively question and those are the three people I trust the most. And they are questioning what is going on. And at this point, I had my first child, so I was deep. I had that identity crisis. So it was just, wow, that's a lot. A perfect storm of the people I trust having questions and knowing that I wasn't going to lose my relationship with them. If I had questions, I was safe to question, which is a privilege that many people don't get.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] I was going to say, this is such an important story right now. One of the reasons we invited you, we know in 2025 that in the pews in the LDS Church in 2025, for the first time ever, there's more men in the pews than women.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] And you know, that theoretically wouldn't be a big deal, except that it's historically unheard of. Historically, in the US Women have always outnumbered the men. So what it means is within the LDS Church in 2025 and in the past few years, young women are leaving the church at a much higher rate than young men are. Yes, and your story shows why. And I think there are a couple components that play into it.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] What I'm hearing so far is one, in terms of the proclamation on the family and, you know, the need to be a working mom that that makes you start having thoughts, gives you a sense of confidence and a freedom, potential liberation, along with a lot of questions that a stay at home Mormon mom wouldn't be able to have.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] And then secondly, your husband's having doubts and questions also because he's experiencing the dissonance of not being on the orthodox train, as are you. So there's that. But then oftentimes it's the binding force of a spouse who will leave you, a woman feeling disempowered and weak and vulnerable because she doesn't have a degree or an education.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] And then parents who are going to be like, turn it off. Doubt your doubts, shut that down. But because there are more and more parents and grandparents questioning and or leaving the church, you've got this, like you said, privilege, but also a sense of courage and inquisitiveness. And a therapist, a good therapist who's giving you solid therapeutic advice versus historically, the Mormon church might warn you against a therapist or a bishop. A Mormon bishop might steer you only to a therapist that's going to say a church approved therapist that's going to say, pray, read your scriptures, follow the prophet. Like there's all sorts of pillars that would have kept a woman in that in 2025 weren't keeping you chained to a life that was gonna lead to depression and misery and sadness for you and your family.

Cate Smith [01:09:59] Yes, you're absolutely right.

John Dehlin [01:10:01] And is there more? Did I miss stuff?

Cate Smith [01:10:03] No, you've. You've covered it. I even wanna say that maybe three months before the questioning really started, I did another round of therapy because of just the sadness I was feeling at the my life path and believing in the church. And I did. I went to a therapist that my bishop recommended and she ended up being amazing. And we'll get to why. Because a lot of my therapy was about, my husband doesn't believe and it's really hard for me that he doesn't believe.

Cate Smith [01:10:36] And she said, well, who has more freedom? The person who goes to church because their wife makes them or the person who doesn't go to church and do we believe in agency? And I said, the person who doesn't go to church has more agency and freedom.

Cate Smith [01:10:51] I thought my husband deserves the right to not go to church. So when I finished that round of therapy, I told him, I said, you don't have to go to church anymore. I know that it's very painful for you and it's not right for me to make you go.

Cate Smith [01:11:06] He still went because he was a little skeptical that I really meant it, but I was open to it at that point. I said, you can stop because I know it's not working for you. And she helped me see that. Even as a believing therapist herself, she told me, you need. She basically helped me get to the conclusion of, you need to let your husband decide what he's going to do. So I'm in. This just. It felt like chaos, this questioning. It felt like a runaway train. I couldn't stop.

John Dehlin [01:11:47] Couldn't stop what?

Cate Smith [01:11:48] I couldn't stop thinking that there's something wrong with this church and it's not good. So I need to look. And what I was most concerned about was harmfulness. I decided to find some faithful podcasts that touched on LGBTQ issues in the church and racism in the past because those were the things that I was most embarrassed about with being a member.

Cate Smith [01:12:19] I was. When I eventually got to the point where I actually didn't want people to know I was a member because I didn't want them to say, like, oh, so you don't like gay people? Or, oh, you come from a racist church. I was mortified, and I didn't want them to know, and I didn't want to talk about it. So I went and I looked, and I found that members of the LGBTQ community had higher rates of suicide in our church and that it was just wrong to ask them to live a life of celibacy without a life partner.

Cate Smith [01:12:53] And I thought to myself, what if my child is gay and I don't find out until he's, like, 15, and we're 15 years into that messaging, and then, like, this is harmful for my children potentially. And I don't know if I can let them sit in a pew and hear this, because I know what it's like to go to church and take the church's word for it over. My parents, because my parents always said, we will love you no matter what you do.

Cate Smith [01:13:27] And I believe my parents. But I also thought, there are rules here. You need to follow those rules for God to love you. And I think you're going to be disappointed if I do something wrong. And I didn't want anything to come between me and my child and to have my child believe the church more than me.

Cate Smith [01:13:45] And then I listened to an apologetic podcast about the racist ban on black members. And at the end of the podcast, they're like, yeah, so Brigham Young was just racist, and that's why it happened. It wasn't divine. And I thought to myself, then why do we have prophets if they're not divinely inspired? There's no reason to follow them at that point. If they are just men and their policies affect people's lives in very big and painful ways, why in the world do we follow them?

Cate Smith [01:14:21] So I just stopped believing in prophets at that point. I was like, they're not divinely inspired. Maybe they have good things to teach, though. Like, they're correcting, so maybe we can still listen to them a little bit. And then the final straw was, I have a weekly meeting with the CEO at my medical clinic that I work at, and he knows I'm Mormon. In fact, he's the one who hired me. And a big part of the reason I got hired, because I was out of state, and they weren't really interested in someone out of state. They wanted. They thought I wanted to be remote. And I had to write and say, I plan to relocate.

Cate Smith [01:14:57] I'm going to be here. And I really value integrity because I'm an accountant. And I don't think accounting is particularly challenging once you get the basics. But all you have after that is your integrity, because if you cannot be trusted, you should not be an accountant, because you have access to lots of information and tools that, if used incorrectly, cause a lot of harm.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:24] Right?

Cate Smith [01:15:25] So I was like, I believe in being honest, and it is a high core value of mine, and I will never be dishonest in this job. And he knew I was Mormon. And I sit down in our weekly meeting, and right out the gate, he says, 38 billion. 38 billion.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] Oh, and what's he talking about?

Cate Smith [01:15:46] He is talking about the news article that broke about the church's fraudulent tax filings. And one of the funds had $38 billion in it. And he was just astonished at how much money our church had accumulated. He was like, the Catholic Church has been around for longer and doesn't have, like, the funds are comparable or they don't have as much money. So he was, like, amazed at how much money we had.

Cate Smith [01:16:14] And then he was like, and they're committing fraud. And I was like, I'm not plugged into the news. I was totally shocked. I was like, what are you talking about? And he said, they've been caught and fined for fraudulently filing tax forms. With shell companies, accounting is not super interesting. So your fraud classes stand out.

Financial Fraud and Deciding to Leave

Cate Smith [01:16:38] Shell companies are never used for anything good. It was pretty clear to me that it was fraud the moment he said that. And I couldn't put on my believing brain and reason it away. I was like, this is fraud.

Cate Smith [01:16:57] And my managers, I'm sitting there with my direct manager and the CEO, and they're laughing and pointing jokes and making jokes about how they're not going to commit fraud like the Mormon Church, and ha ha ha. And I was mortified because I'm a Mormon.

Cate Smith [01:17:12] I am so clearly defined by Mormonism, and my leaders are liars and fraudsters. How can I follow them when they are so clearly doing the wrong thing? And at that point, I thought to myself, there is no way this is divinely inspired, and there is no way I can continue to give my money to this organization, give my life to it, or give my children to it.

Cate Smith [01:17:43] So that was in the, like, final week of February when I learned that we went to church one more time. And then I knew we weren't going back to church. And the irony is that Sunday, we listened to a talk about millennials losing their faith. And I thought, yep, I'm a millennial, and this is the end. I'm not coming back. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:06] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] Dang. Dang. I mean, I have noticed that Mormon or LDS accountants and investors. So SEC stuff and IRS stuff, they took a hit when the Ensign Peak News came out. Because if you want to be an investor or an accountant, you follow the SEC or the IRS guidelines. You know them?

Cate Smith [01:18:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:18:37] And you follow them?

Cate Smith [01:18:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] So to find out, the church, God's church, Christ's church, God's prophets, are literally in violation of tax law and securities law. I don't know how you stay without viewing your church as a. As a fraud. You know, you can't, like, literally like that word. I mean, there's believers that are like, don't use the word fraud. That's too offensive. But from a tax. I mean, you're at irs. I mean, you're an accountant. Right.

Cate Smith [01:19:09] It is the term to describe the situation.

John Dehlin [01:19:12] Does it describe what the Mormon Church has done with Ensign Peak, in your opinion?

Cate Smith [01:19:16] Absolutely. There's no doubt about it. In fact, the first thing that came to mind was a reference to a TV show where the accountant is, like, in another good term is fraud. That's was fraud. It was devastating. So my father is also an accountant.

Cate Smith [01:19:34] And just to back up, like, eight weeks, my mom told my dad, I don't believe in the church. This is. I don't believe it. I don't want to go. I don't think it's real and true. And my dad was like, oh, I think I can make this work.

Cate Smith [01:19:50] Let me do this what I can, but you can do what you want. And then the SEC thing happened, and he was like, oh, my gosh, it's not real either. Because to help my mom, he was like, I'll read these gospel topics essays. And then he read the sec, like, letter that the church put out, saying, like, trying to make it sound nice. And he's like, this sounds a lot like a gospel topics essay where they're not really being honest.

John Dehlin [01:20:13] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:20:13] So my dad and mom were done, too, by that point.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:17] Okay, so was that before you made the decision to be done? So they. And were you all communicating during this time where in real time you kind of had this sense of, oh, they may be done.

Cate Smith [01:20:33] Yes. So I knew that my mom had questions, and we were talking about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:36] Okay.

Cate Smith [01:20:37] And she knew I had questions, and my dad knew my mom had questions but wasn't quite done yet. And we would go to family dinner every week. My mom's family is very close geographically, so I'm going to family dinner. And I'm like, mom, I'm worried this is not working. This is causing me a lot of problems. And eventually my mom just looked at me and said, we don't believe.

Cate Smith [01:20:59] We go, but we don't believe anymore. And I thought, how do you do that? And she's like, well, we just. This is just what we're doing right now. And then my dad even at one point was like, you need to be careful. It's to my mom, like, you need to be careful with Kate because she's having a really hard time, and I don't want you to talk her out of it. Like, let her make her own decision. And then he just saw, wow, she's really going down too. And we all just were done very similarly at the same time.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:28] Wow, that's really something.

Cate Smith [01:21:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:31] And that's the thing. The more parents that leave, the more kids will leave. And the more kids that leave, the more parents will leave. It can become a real downward spiral for church activity in the US which is what's happening.

Cate Smith [01:21:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:21:45] And for any family who's thinking, like, why didn't we talk to them? Like, believing wise, like, you kind of feel like you have a disease, that you don't want to spread it. And so I didn't talk to my parents really openly about my questions until I really started to have questions. And then I was really nervous too, because I thought, what if I say something that takes them off the path and they're feeling this much mental anguish just like me, Like, I want to protect them so you can keep it quiet for a really long time because, like, for survival, basically. But then eventually it became too painful that we spoke about it, but by the time we talked, it was over.

Navigating Faith Transitions with Believing Family

John Dehlin [01:22:19] So Julie asked me to ask if sharing nuggets of disbelief is helpful to believing family. And this is something maybe I'll pivot and add a bit to the question too. Like when someone comes to me angry and they've lost their faith and they want to be a missionary for ex Mormonism to all their believing family and friends, my general advice is not to do that. And you're shaking your head no.

Cate Smith [01:22:49] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [01:22:50] Why?

Cate Smith [01:22:50] No, I agree with you. Don't do it.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] And yet you're also saying that hearing that your parents and husband were struggling ended up helping you. So help. Help me work through that. Because you could argue that it was them sharing with you that they had doubts and questions that then gave you a sense of freedom, insecurity, to also doubt and question at some point.

Cate Smith [01:23:17] Yeah. Yeah. So let's go through that. When my husband, early in our marriage, would say, like, hey, this thing about church bothers me, Brigham Young re baptized people, I would just, no, we're not talking about it. But when he would come to me and say, the church is really painful for me. It's really hard for me to go to church, I feel bad. That was harder for me to dismiss because I was like, well, who cares what happened in the past? But when I'm looking at my spouse and they're saying, this is really painful for me, that got into my heart more than whatever he said about historical

Margi Dehlin [01:23:47] things or a historical. Yep.

Cate Smith [01:23:49] Yes. His pain got in. And that is what got into my heart and head to at least let me feel like if I question, he's going to be okay because I already know he's in pain with this church. With my parents, I was already pretty far down the questioning train that I felt relieved when they came out as unbelievers to me because I knew I wouldn't lose my relationship with them. So I think as a believer, I wasn't open to hearing a fact that would make me question. But as soon as I was questioning, I felt safe. I felt relieved to hear that people were questioning because then I knew I wouldn't lose them.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:32] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:24:33] So I think that's how I would make it through that.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] Okay. So what I'm hearing is hearing that a loved one is in pain over church can often be more effective than hearing factual tidbits.

Cate Smith [01:24:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Because it tugs on your heartstrings if they care about you.

Cate Smith [01:24:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:53] And then just knowing someone is no longer on the train, belief wise, that's enough to let you know that once you're ready to have questions or doubt, that there'll be a safe place for you to process it. They don't need to cram. Try to cram their knowledge down your throat. That might create the opposite effect and make you feel less safe to talk to them.

Cate Smith [01:25:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] Is that what I heard?

Cate Smith [01:25:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] That's great.

Cate Smith [01:25:19] That was exactly it.

John Dehlin [01:25:20] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:21] I also kind of feel like with the second. But tell me if I'm wrong with your parents. Is some of that kind of control or fear is in the conditional love model of we love and approve of you when you're in. When you're like us or when you're. And so was part of that also a sense of relief of that judgment and control? Guilt, shame. There's like a lot that can. That can go into that, right?

Cate Smith [01:25:56] Absolutely. Absolutely. I Remember at one point, like, it's definitely a rollercoaster once you start questioning. And I remember going to my mom. I knew she was questioning, and I said to her, will you still respect me if I stay in the church? And she said, absolutely. I will love and respect you no matter what you decide to do. So I felt free to make my own decision.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:20] Yeah. That's beautiful.

Cate Smith [01:26:21] It was quite a gift. A gift I wish I had given my husband earlier.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:26] Right? Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] But you don't know until you know, you know. And it sounds like, you know, there's always this question of our. Are Mormons in a cult or not? Is the church a cult? It sounds like the framework that your parents offered was not a cultish framework.

Cate Smith [01:26:47] No, no. They allowed us freedom of thought and love no matter what we did. I think I questioned that simply because of the church culture. And I just knew the pressure. Like, I knew people who every Sunday cried about the fact their kids left the church. I knew the pain it caused. But I was able to, at least at that point, believe my parents more than the church, that they would still love and respect me no matter what I decided.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:19] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:27:20] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] Also, Julie was wondering, are you able to share what podcasts you listen to? The names of the podcasts, even as a believing Mormon, or as a progressive or a liberal liberal Mormon, or as a questioning Mormon, doubting Mormon, that were helpful to you, and we'll ask that at the end. But maybe this is more Mormon specific.

Cate Smith [01:27:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:43] If you want to share.

Cate Smith [01:27:44] I'm actually having a hard time remembering the name. I didn't listen to it for long because I listened to it for eight weeks. And then I thought, this. This isn't real. This isn't true. This doesn't work for me.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] Okay.

Cate Smith [01:27:55] But I don't recall.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:58] Yeah, that's okay.

Cate Smith [01:27:59] Sorry about that.

John Dehlin [01:28:00] No, it's okay. There's one called Faith Matters.

Cate Smith [01:28:03] That's the one.

John Dehlin [01:28:04] Is that it? Okay, so Faith Matters is good people, liberal, faithful Mormons. That's kind of the Terell Givens, Patrick Mason kind of flavor. The restore crowd, as it's now called.

Cate Smith [01:28:18] Yeah, it was interesting to be exposed to that. I thought, wow, this is a really beautiful version of Mormonism, but it's not the version I believe in. And I couldn't figure out a way to make it fit together with my beliefs. It unfortunately, really actually probably expedited my exit more than keeping me in.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:40] Oh, interesting.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] Yeah. And that's how it works for some people. And I'll also just say that it depends on the brain type. And I don't want to stereotype any profession, but like, sometimes science or math or logic or integrity based professions have a harder time with kind of that nuanced, liberal, middle of the road kind of approach to religion.

Cate Smith [01:29:05] Absolutely. It was black and white for me. It was either all true or all false.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:29:11] I couldn't find even if it was false, there would be value in it. Like, I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

John Dehlin [01:29:17] And then the other thing, going back to this idea of privilege, sometimes if you're facing your spouse leaving you and taking the kids or your parents disowning you.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:25] Right.

John Dehlin [01:29:26] You have to make it work. And so then restore or Faith Matters is like literally the only way you don't want to die.

Cate Smith [01:29:34] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:29:34] And you didn't have some of those pressures that other people.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:37] That's a good point.

Cate Smith [01:29:38] Yeah, No, I did not have those pressures. I was free to make my own decision and I'm very thankful for that. And I see the value that faith matters does. It just. It didn't have to be that for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:49] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:29:50] Yeah. Okay. So how did you and your husband gracefully exit?

Cate Smith [01:29:59] Well, we just decided we were done. So we emailed our bishop and said, hey, Bishop, I know we're on the primary presidency and Sunday school presidency, but we're not coming back.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:09] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:30:09] Would you like to come over and take our temple recommends and key to the building?

John Dehlin [01:30:13] Dang. Had you listened to Mormon stories at that point? No.

Cate Smith [01:30:18] No.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] So you didn't. Had you gone to Reddit? Like, did you. You didn't have any coaching on exiting the church?

Cate Smith [01:30:24] No. And I. I wish I had found your podcast, the Gift of a Mormon Faith Crisis. That would have helped. I did delay telling my family. So we stopped attending the beginning of March in 2023, and I delayed telling my family until May. May.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:40] Okay.

Cate Smith [01:30:41] Because I knew it was going to be a difficult conversation and I didn't want to do it the wrong way. But yeah, we told our bishop, said, hey, we're not coming anymore. And he was really kind. He came to our home and what was funny is he just opened with, is it a history problem or a policy problem? And then we were just like, I don't know, a little bit of both. We're just not going to do this anymore. And so then we just stopped attending. And we had a few people in the ward reach out. We asked for no contact. I didn't want them coming to my doorstep because ironically, that was my final act as a Mormon. Was going to inactive Homes and inviting them to an activity, Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:31:25] Yep.

Cate Smith [01:31:26] I went and knocked on the door and said, hey, come to this activity. And then two days later, we emailed the bishop and said, we're done. And I didn't want people to coming looking for my children. It wasn't their business to come and invite my kids to church activities, give them rides, pressure them to do something that I wasn't okay with. So I asked for no contact. And we got a birthday card from my son in the mail, which is not in and of itself bad, but it is a violation of no contact. So I started to get really angry, and I thought, how do I get my address off the records? Like, this has got to be done. So I Learned about contact quitmormon.org on TikTok. And we resigned our membership early May because I didn't want anyone coming for my children.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:13] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:32:14] And then because of that, that's how I found Mormon stories. So I actually resigned my membership before I ever listened to Mormon Stories. And the first episode I watched of you was the CES letter. I couldn't tell where you stood. The way you were interviewing Jeremy, I was like, I don't know what this John de Linde guy is up. I can't tell.

John Dehlin [01:32:37] That's a compliment.

Cate Smith [01:32:38] Yes, it was.

John Dehlin [01:32:40] Because I want people to make their own decision.

Cate Smith [01:32:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] I don't want to feel like I'm steering them in any direction. No.

Cate Smith [01:32:45] And I found the CES letter, like, right after we resigned, and I read it, and that's when I thought, oh, this is not true.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] So you. You stepped away.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:57] Yes.

Cate Smith [01:32:58] Before.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Before you concluded that it wasn't true. Yes. That's wild.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:03] This is what I loved about your story. This is what stood out is so different, was that it was your lived experience with the going against. I mean, in quotation, the proclamation.

Cate Smith [01:33:15] Yeah. Yes. My lived experience was that of pain. And I saw the potential for harm for my children. I didn't think the church had harmed me at that point. I wasn't deep enough into researching, but I thought, no, this is too harmful. There's too much potential for harm here, so we're not doing this. And I don't want people coming for my children. So we resigned. And then I found out, oh, it's not true, which was a relief.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:41] It's not true.

Cate Smith [01:33:43] Which was a relief because I felt kind of crazy. I thought I might be hurting myself, salvation wise, hurting myself and my family by leaving, but I feel that it's harmful, so I can't do it. And the Reason I felt that a God could do this is because I believed in a God that would ask someone to sacrifice their child. I believed in a God that asked women to participate in polygamy. I believed in a God that asked for pain. So I thought God might be asking me to do something that's wrong for the sake of truth. But then when it wasn't true, I felt such relief because now I'm not damning myself to hell. Not that Mormons really believe in hell, but I'm not doing the wrong thing. And I was so worried about doing the wrong thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:36] Yeah.

Losing Belief and Finding Stability After Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:34:37] So what does it mean if there's a God that wants you to do the harmful thing and that's what God

Cate Smith [01:34:45] expects or wants, what does it mean? I concluded it was a God that I didn't want to worship because I thought to myself, I'm a parent. I would never ask my child to do something that hurt them. I would never expect them to live a certain way and then not invite them back into my house. Like, there's very few things my child could do where I would say, you can't stay here. But I believe in a God that does that. That doesn't make sense. So I don't believe in that God. So I. I don't believe in the Mormon God.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] Especially if the thing that they're doing is providing for their family and doing what feels good for them and their spouse and their kids.

Cate Smith [01:35:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:28] You're gonna keep them out of your eternal presence for that.

Cate Smith [01:35:31] Yeah. Or for just not going to church. Like, honestly, not going somewhere every Sunday, suddenly I'm not invited back. Like, that doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [01:35:39] Or not believing X, Y, and Z, that's really hard to believe. Once you learn all the facts that have been withheld from you. You're gonna keep your kid out of your eternal presence for that?

Cate Smith [01:35:51] No, never.

John Dehlin [01:35:52] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:35:53] And then it just became. Basically, I'd say I inhaled the Mormon Stories podcast for, like, eight months.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:01] Like, six.

John Dehlin [01:36:02] But don't blame me. No, she'd already lost her faith.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:04] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:36:05] It was already gone.

John Dehlin [01:36:06] I was telling the audience.

Cate Smith [01:36:07] Yeah. No, it's true. It was already gone. And I just needed to feel like I wasn't crazy and I needed to know more about the truth because I had built my entire life on this church and based on it being true.

John Dehlin [01:36:21] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:36:21] And now it's not true. And how has this church informed me and who I am? And I just kept going.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] You mentioned. I'll just list a couple. You mentioned Dan McClellan.

Cate Smith [01:36:33] Yes. I watched an episode of Dan McClellan that you did. And at the end of it, I thought, all right, I don't think Jesus is divine. Like, I don't believe in Christianity now.

John Dehlin [01:36:43] And by the way, that's not what I was going for with that episode.

Cate Smith [01:36:47] No, I arrived at that conclusion myself. Because even just the fact that, like, the New Testament was written 70 years after the fact, Parts of it.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] Parts of it were 70 years.

Cate Smith [01:36:57] How can anyone remember anything that he said verbatim 70 years later? Yeah, like, how do we know? So, and. And it just became something that I couldn't believe. And then I just saw the holes in believing in Christianity, that believing that I was flawed and needed to be different and needed to be better than who I naturally was became very repugnant to me. I couldn't believe that. I didn't want to believe that I was an enemy to God or someone that needed saving because I didn't view my children that way, so why should I view myself that way? And so, yeah, I lost my belief in Mormonism, then I lost my belief in Christianity, and then I lost my belief in God.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] And you mentioned the Almost Awakened podcast with Bill Real and Britt Hartley.

Cate Smith [01:37:55] Yes. I listened to that a lot because they were talking about the things that I was wondering about, like, how do you live a moral life without an external authority, like God? Their phrase was like, how to live the good life or something like that. And that was very interesting to me because I'd always outsourced my moral authority. But then suddenly, I don't believe in anything. What do I do? I was really confused. And they were talking about how to find it within, which was really interesting. And then Brit is also just a really active online content creator about atheism. And I was like, this makes a lot of sense to me that the God of the Bible probably doesn't exist, because I don't.

Cate Smith [01:38:43] I think. I don't like it. And I think if God's designed after us humans or we're designed after Him, I think there are way things that could be a lot better. So it doesn't really make sense that the God of the Bible exists the way we think it does. And, yeah, I found myself lacking belief in everything.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:06] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:39:07] And I felt like I was free falling. I felt like I couldn't tell really up from down to the point where I was just, like, laying on my bed and thinking, I don't know what's real anymore. I think the speed limit is real, and I have a job that I'm gonna go to. And I'm gonna do that because it keeps a roof over our head and food on the table. But everything else is up for debate on whether it's real or not.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:33] Right?

John Dehlin [01:39:35] But that's a scary and sometimes depressing and empty place for people to be. And by the way, this is only, like, what, in the past year. That's pretty recent. Sometimes it takes people years to figure this, Stu.

Cate Smith [01:39:49] I think that my desire to just understand kept me going. And I just kept looking. I had to keep listening. I had to keep understanding. So I just kept deconstructing. And it went beyond religious belief. It was like economic systems, political systems.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:06] Deconstruct. Deconstruct. Deconstruct. Yes.

Cate Smith [01:40:08] Everything to the point where I was like, we're all puppets with no free will, right? And we're just doing stuff because we think we need to. And guess what? We actually don't. So why are we doing this?

John Dehlin [01:40:20] But that can be a problem, because then you're like, why do I be a parent? Why do I be a spouse? Why did I even get married? Why do I even work? Like that can lead people to existential dread.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:32] It did.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] Oh, no.

Cate Smith [01:40:34] I got there.

John Dehlin [01:40:35] Oh, no. I'm glad you found Brit.

Cate Smith [01:40:37] I know. I'm glad I found her before I hit rock bottom, because it gave me. I knew I had somewhere to go. But yes, I hit rock bottom. Existential dread. Parenting felt painful at points because I was parenting really young children when I hit the rock bottom. I had a six month old baby and, like a three year old. And parenting is very physically demanding at that point. And I felt like I'm suffering physically, mentally. I don't even know if I chose to have children because the church really made me think I had to. And I spend 40 hours a week working on spreadsheets like, this seems silly. It all sent. It all felt silly.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:20] Meaningless.

Cate Smith [01:41:21] Yes. Meaninglessness followed me everywhere. So, yes, I hit rock bottom. And I thought, brit Hartley's talked about this. I'm going to go find her stuff. And I remember that she's talked about a life worth experiencing. And I can tell you right now, my life right now is not worth experiencing. I had also tried to buy a house, which was a major financial goal of mine. And I came up to some roadblocks, and I thought, I can't achieve anything I want to, so why try? And I said, okay. Brett Hartley says I can create a life worth experiencing. What does this even mean? Who am I and what do I want to do?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:06] Mm.

Cate Smith [01:42:08] So I started where she Suggested was, which was with the body. I wanted to improve the experience of living in my body. And this meant that I stopped breastfeeding my child because she was doing better on formula. She was having digestive issues with breast milk. I didn't want to figure it out. And I was like, formula works. We're doing this. I'm going to have my body back. It's going to be mine. It's not creating a human or feeding a human. It's mine now.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:36] Right.

Cate Smith [01:42:37] I'm going to get back into my regular exercise routine because it had been hard to be consistent before then. And I also sleep trained my daughter. I was like, I'm sleeping through the night now. So I improved my sleep, I started exercising, and I started changing my relationship with food. Food used to be one of my only comforts. I would have to eat to feel better. And I started to say, I need to eat to fuel myself to feel good.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:06] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:43:07] So I changed. And that also, that idea of, like, refueling for health and feeling good started when I was pregnant. At one of your podcasts, Margi, you talked about at one point just taking in data and saying, noticing how you feel. So as a pregnant person, I was like, all right, I'm gonna have this second piece of cake and see how it feels. It didn't feel great. And so I just started noticing. And so that led me to making different decisions to feel better.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:39] Right.

Cate Smith [01:43:39] About how I fueled my body.

John Dehlin [01:43:41] Man, I don't even know that I've learned that lesson yet. I'm 56.

Cate Smith [01:43:45] I wouldn't say I'm perfect at it either. It's a tough one, but I just have the cake.

John Dehlin [01:43:49] No, I'm kidding. No, I'm trying.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:51] Yeah. But it's so powerful, this idea of Brits to start with. Just improving your experience of the body. Yeah, it's tangible.

Cate Smith [01:44:01] It's tangible.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:02] Yes.

Cate Smith [01:44:02] I could feel it. I could feel it in my body. And that felt real when everything felt, like, pointless. So I improved my physical health, and then I just decided to start experimenting to figure out who I was. Like, I am going to see what it's like to go to this class where we talk about tarot cards and just see what that's like and meet people and see how that feels and just kind of learn how my body talks to me. And I actually talk about this more in a piece I wrote for Exponent 2 that comes out in January.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Nice.

Cate Smith [01:44:46] So subscribe to Exponent 2 and get my piece. It's called the Voice Within. And I really learned how to listen to my body and figure out what I wanted. And I started a daily ritual of coffee, which feels, like, totally heathen as a Mormon, But I was like, let's do it. Let's figure out coffee. And I did. And it became something that was worth waking up for. Oh, I hear you.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] Mark and I are so with you on that.

Cate Smith [01:45:12] I hear you.

John Dehlin [01:45:14] If coffee is true. If something's true, coffee is true.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:17] The other thing I love about what you're describing is it's moving from a place where experience in the world is dead to aliveness. You're exploring it like it's new. Like, oh, I wonder. You're leaning into curiosity. You're.

Cate Smith [01:45:33] Yeah, absolutely. And what I loved about coffee is it was something that was for me. It wasn't for my children. It wasn't for my job, like it was for me. And it was something that made it worth waking up for every day, which I needed that because my life was in service to others in a lot of ways.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:51] And isn't it powerful, just the actual of you wake up and it's. First you. You have something for you.

Cate Smith [01:45:58] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:59] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:46:00] Yeah. So that was a ritual I started.

John Dehlin [01:46:03] And by the way, coffee isn't an addiction.

Cate Smith [01:46:06] No.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:06] It's just joy, as it turns out. It's so many things. It's joy, it's soothing, it's ritual. It, like, makes you feel present.

Cate Smith [01:46:17] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:18] Yeah. Yeah.

Life After the Church and Spiritual Reconstruction

John Dehlin [01:46:19] There's this impression that coffee is all about, you're too tired in the morning and so you need it. I wake up at three or four every morning. I need zero to get up in the morning. I do coffee almost like it's a drug. I do coffee for the joy. Full stop.

Cate Smith [01:46:34] Absolutely. And I even shifted to decaf because I couldn't handle the caffeine. So it truly was for the joy of coffee. So I started that. And then I felt like I had to really deal with the problem of suffering because I felt like in many ways I was suffering with being a parent or being a member of a capitalistic society or whatever.

Cate Smith [01:46:59] So I had to deal with suffering, and I had to confront that. Suffering felt random, that there was nothing to do to prevent it sometimes. And that was really challenging. And I even, like, kind of walked back and said, I think I have to believe in God for a little bit here because I can't function thinking about my children being really harmed and maybe dying and not believe in God. Like, I don't think I can function that way. So for a time, I went back to a belief in God. Simply to function. And I kind of did it consciously, so I knew it wasn't entirely intellectually honest, but I was like, this is a crutch I need right now, so I'm gonna do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:40] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:47:41] But then I felt that I didn't need that anymore. I felt I had come to terms with how things just operate a little randomly and sometimes not for our good. And then I felt a real lack of spirituality in my life. It felt hard in some ways to just not have that moment of reflection. Like, I didn't miss praying because I didn't believe in prayer.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:10] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:48:11] But I missed the contemplation and reflection. So I started honestly doing a daily tarot card reading because it's generative. I didn't do it for divination, future telling. I did it because it tells the human story of emotion and archetypes, and it can just generate something for me to think about.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:38] Right.

Cate Smith [01:48:39] So I just started doing that, and it just plunged me into a world of feminine spirituality because there are people who have more literal belief in tarot cards or something that is more like the witchy realm. And I just enjoyed learning about that. It was something for me to study, something for me to connect with, something to think about that wasn't male centered because Mormonism is so male focused, especially in the spiritual sense.

Cate Smith [01:49:14] So I just. I started doing that, and it was really helpful. And then I also really started connecting with the outdoors in a very casual way. I'm not a big outdoors person. I'm talking about, like, standing in my yard, maybe barefoot in the grass, or when I'm outside, just taking in a deep breath of that air and just noticing what it feels like to be outside right now and noticing the seasons. Like, so much of our culture really likes sameness. And we like to run at a really high speed all the time and do the same thing all year round. Whereas when we're more in touch with the seasons, we're really living in harmony with what's going on.

Cate Smith [01:49:58] We're sprinting in the summer and we're resting in the winter. And it's like we're changing our wardrobe. We're changing. I change how? I just don't even do makeup in the summer for that reason as just taking a breather from that. But I also then kind of slow down my activities outside of the house in the winter for time to reflect and be inside.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:25] I hear you. I am loving it.

Cate Smith [01:50:28] I can't take credit for it. You definitely gave me the idea. You and John Larsen. Margi, first Put the idea in my head of living with the seasons. And I thought, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. And that became. And then I learned about these things called the pagan sabbats, where it's the wheel of the year. There's like eight of them. They happen like, every six weeks. And it's just like a change in season, basically. And you mark it with just noticing the nature that's going, what's happening outside, and also, like, what it means for you in this time. Usually if it's something like. I mean, Yule is easy because that's Christmas, but if it's a different one, like Letha, the longest day of the year, I'll probably, like, light a candle, set an intention, and probably watch the sunset sometimes, since it's the longest day of the year.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:21] Right.

Cate Smith [01:51:22] And just pay attention to it. And it made me feel like I inhabited the Earth rather than being a part of this thing where I'm gonna be a God someday and I'm gonna control this Earth or an Earth, and I was now part of it. And that was really grounding.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:40] Yeah. What I'm hearing also in all these things you're describing is connection. Connection to the larger world, connection to yourself, connection to your experience.

Cate Smith [01:51:56] Yeah, absolutely. It was. I had to start connecting with what was going on around me because in, like, a greater sense, it all felt pointless. But when I zoomed in on my life, it made sense. I could tangibly touch what was going on. Right. And additionally, I had to get off some social media because it really affected me negatively. And I had my husband, like, lock me out of my stuff about 18 months ago, and I haven't been back.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:31] I may relate to that, Kate. Yeah, also me.

John Dehlin [01:52:35] Also Amazon.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:37] Also Amazon is next. Yes, I absolutely relate to that. Tried things on my own. I feel like I'm disciplined in a lot of areas in my life. So it was really curious for me to actually realize, oh, wow, I'm really. I'm making efforts and I'm not able to do this on my own.

Cate Smith [01:52:58] I wasn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:59] So I was just so tickled to read that. Cause I was like, me too, Kate. Me too.

Cate Smith [01:53:05] I'm glad I'm not alone. Yeah, I had to, because I was like, doom scrolling about how I'll never be able to buy a house. And it made me feel like I couldn't accomplish anything. But I was like, okay, this is like living out here. But if I zoom in on my life and I take out the noise of social media, my life is good.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:25] Yes.

Cate Smith [01:53:25] I am healthy. I'm safe. Like, I need to not engage in this.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:31] Absolutely.

Cate Smith [01:53:32] I don't.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:32] So powerful.

Cate Smith [01:53:33] Thank you. It's been a really good decision, and I. I love it. I'm not going back.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:40] Yeah. That's really beautiful.

Cate Smith [01:53:42] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:53:44] So that's interesting. Now, on the one hand, from my perspective, you're quite young, but if I'm thinking about the flow of your story, part of the reason why you became a provider was so that you could have a house and a mortgage. And you're saying that to this day, that dream has been elusive.

Cate Smith [01:54:06] It has been. But I will say, I can also

John Dehlin [01:54:08] say it's historically difficult times to buy a house.

Cate Smith [01:54:11] It absolutely is. It absolutely is. And it was two years ago. It felt insurmountable.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:54:16] But I'm excited to say we're actually closing on our first house next week.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:20] Oh, that is amazing.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] Wait. Wickedness never was happiness.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:24] I know.

Cate Smith [01:54:25] Turns out it's easier to save up for a house when you're not paying tithing.

John Dehlin [01:54:28] Oh, my gosh.

Cate Smith [01:54:30] Like, facts back there.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:33] Indeed.

Cate Smith [01:54:34] But also, the market's changed a bit in my favor at this point, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:38] Well, we're happy for you.

Cate Smith [01:54:39] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] So you're closing on a house soon?

Cate Smith [01:54:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:41] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:42] We are.

Cate Smith [01:54:44] Thank you. We're so excited. It is a major life accomplishment, and I don't think we would have been able to do this had we pursued my husband's career rather than mine, so.

John Dehlin [01:54:56] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:54:57] And I know you don't have to have a house to be happy or fulfilled in life, but it was a goal of mine, so it felt very important to my life path.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] That should matter.

Cate Smith [01:55:13] Yeah. That it felt important.

John Dehlin [01:55:14] You and the audience, what brings you happiness and joy actually should matter.

Cate Smith [01:55:18] Absolutely. It really should. So that's been a really great development.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:28] Yeah. Another thing that just I'm struck by as you're talking is how much of Mormonism is about the future.

Cate Smith [01:55:38] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:38] You're always kind of living for a future time you never quite get to. And what you've done and what you've described around. I don't know how you would talk about it. Would you talk about it as rebuilding? How would you talk about what you've been describing?

Cate Smith [01:55:55] Rebuilding or rebuilding? I burnt it down to nothing.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:58] Yeah. Is that. It seems to me that you have prioritized the process, the present moment.

Cate Smith [01:56:08] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:08] Which is a major. That is a major reorientation of a life.

Cate Smith [01:56:14] Huge. Huge. I lived for the future as a Mormon all the time, and I've reoriented to the present to the point where I look forward to the moment before I go to bed where I do those deep breaths to get me to sleep, because I'm really there and I'm feeling what it feels like to go to sleep. And I'm looking forward to those moments where I hug my children and I kiss their sweet little cheeks and just hold them while they're young and know that this moment is not forever and that I really want to be here for it.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:48] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:56:48] And not live for the future of some supposed happiness, but find the happiness now. My husband's always been more focused on the present moment. He's definitely helped me get there. He's. He's the one who was saying, hey, I know we're saving for a house, but I think we should go on a vacation every once in a while and like, have a good time and make some memories and go do fun things with our family. And I have. I finally got on board with that. And it's been a really good change in our life. So 100% I have a life worth experiencing and I have a present, like a presence in my life that's worth being around for that feels very fulfilling and meaningful and just like what I'm supposed to be doing.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:40] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:57:40] And it never really felt that way in the church. I always felt like I was hustling, trying to change who I was trying to change who and what I was doing. Like, it was always about striving and I have stopped. I kind of have an aversion to self help books at this point. I'm like, I'm not interested. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I'm not interested in like fundamentally changing myself. Right. So I'm not going to do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:09] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] That's powerful.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:10] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:58:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:58:12] The. I don't know if this is going to land, but as I hear you describe your reconstructed spirituality, am I hearing some Gnosticism or some. I don't want to say paganism or Wiccanism because those frameworks often have negative associations. But when you're tuning in nature and the seasons in the present moment, it gives some of that.

Cate Smith [01:58:39] It absolutely does.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:40] Yeah.

Cate Smith [01:58:40] I would definitely say I lean more agnostic, atheist, paganism stuff, but like super lightly. I held Mormonism very tightly. I hold these things that I do now believe very lightly. But yes, I'm much more connected to the earth seasons myself, and that's. That's what I care about at this point.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:04] Anything else you want to say about your reconstruction before we ask you those final Questions you filled up.

Cate Smith [01:59:10] Yeah, I think I've hit everything. I would say that it's a daunting process to start, but I'm really glad I did it and I'm really glad that Brit Hartley is putting out the work that she's putting out there, because it got pretty dark there. And I was able to prioritize. I was at least able to believe, hey, this can get better. So it's worth doing.

John Dehlin [01:59:35] And the book and the channel is no nonsense spirituality, just for those who want to check that out.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:40] And the book is absolutely.

Cate Smith [01:59:43] It came out like a month after I decided to start reconstruction, and I was like, perfect.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:48] How about that?

Cate Smith [01:59:48] This is good. So, okay.

John Dehlin [01:59:52] All right.

Cate Smith [01:59:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:54] Well, what a powerful story.

Cate Smith [01:59:56] Thank you.

Closing Questions and Reflections

John Dehlin [02:00:00] Margi had the idea and we agreed that from now on, we're going to end with a few standard questions. So the first that are lighter.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:08] Fair. It's lighter fair.

John Dehlin [02:00:09] Yeah.

Cate Smith [02:00:10] I like it. I liked the question, so I'm excited.

John Dehlin [02:00:13] So the first one is what's a book, podcast, TV show, or a combination that you have enjoyed lately?

Cate Smith [02:00:18] So a book is. Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman. I think it's so good. I really liked it. It's a novel. It's a story about a woman who goes through hardship and she's a little quirky, kind of says whatever she thinks, but she finds community, which is definitely really hard after Mormonism. And I really resonated with her struggle to find community, but also just like, was so happy for her at the end of the book.

John Dehlin [02:00:47] Nice. Okay, that's. Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman. Just to repeat.

Cate Smith [02:00:54] Yes, I completely loved it. So highly recommend. And then just like a show I'm really enjoying right now is called A Man on the Inside, on Netflix.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:03] Yep.

Cate Smith [02:01:04] So funny.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:04] Ted Danson.

Cate Smith [02:01:05] Ted Danson is the best. I loved him in the Good Place. Like, anything that Mike Scher is creating, I'm watching because it's so funny and heartwarming.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:13] Yes.

Cate Smith [02:01:13] So, yeah, highly recommend.

John Dehlin [02:01:15] It's kind of like who done it in a old folks home.

Cate Smith [02:01:19] Yes, exactly. And the second.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:21] The second season, though, is outside of that.

Cate Smith [02:01:23] Yeah. Yeah, it's outside of that. It's different, but still just as good. But, yeah, I've really prioritized, like, even with these two items, like, I really prioritized exposing myself to things that bring me pleasure and joy. Love it. Rather than just like thinking deeply about life because, like, I did that too hard and it hurt a lot. So I'm Definitely prioritizing things that are funny and enjoyable to consumers.

John Dehlin [02:01:49] So important, preserving maybe your mental state or some energy. Yeah. All right. Who is someone you admire?

Cate Smith [02:02:00] My hero right now is Katie Ludlow

John Dehlin [02:02:02] Rich, who's been on Mormon Stories.

Cate Smith [02:02:04] She has. That's where I first discovered her. She is a writer, an independent scholar. She wrote 50 Years of Exponent 2, which is a really great book about the history of that publication. And she's just focusing on centering the female experience, which I hadn't even thought of until I listened to her, and I realized, wow. My experience has always been putting myself in the experience of a man and listening to male perspectives. So I'm going to take a break. And this past year, I only read books written by women. I made one exception for Ben Park's American Zion.

Cate Smith [02:02:40] But I only read books and listened to podcasts that were interviewing women because I wanted to expose myself to the female experience to better understand myself. So. And that's what her work is centered on, from what I can tell. And any podcast or paper she's doing, I'm just, like, trying to get my hands on it.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] Have you heard about. So, yes, on Kate Ludlow Rich, have you seen that Amy McPhee, alabest with breaking Down Patriarchy, has a video version of Dear Mormon man. What would you have me do out?

Cate Smith [02:03:13] Yes, I have seen that, and that's an incredible piece that everyone should watch.

John Dehlin [02:03:18] Shout out to Amy in Breaking Down Patriarchy.

Cate Smith [02:03:21] Mm.

John Dehlin [02:03:22] Okay, and then last question. What is something that has been lighting you up lately?

Cate Smith [02:03:28] So we are actually preparing to get a cat, which is really exciting me because I have always really loved animals.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:34] Yeah.

Cate Smith [02:03:35] And it was something that I, like, rediscovered about myself in the past year, and it took some convincing for my husband, but he has agreed and we're getting a cat. And I'm just really excited to give my children that experience. I had a cat growing up and just also doing something that, you know, I want.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:53] Yes, absolutely.

Cate Smith [02:03:55] It's been fun to research, like, preparing for it, and my siblings all have cats and just, like, bonding over it. And so I'm very excited.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:05] Yes. And cats are, like, perfect. Well, animals, I think can be in general, but cats with regard to presents.

Cate Smith [02:04:14] Oh, yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:15] There's something about watching a cat. A cat is not, like, overly preoccupied about others.

Cate Smith [02:04:21] No. They want to do what they want, and they're there to lay in the sun.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:24] That's right.

Cate Smith [02:04:25] And be taken care of.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:26] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:04:27] Occasionally chase some string.

Cate Smith [02:04:28] Yes, exactly. So it's just exciting to reconnect with that part of myself. It kind of, like dawned on me a couple months ago, and I was like, oh, I really need to do this. Like, I need to do this. It's not just a want, it's a need. And it's exciting.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] Isn't it awesome. To become your own prophet. Yes.

Cate Smith [02:04:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:48] That sounds prideful to a believing mind. Well, I'm. I don't need God. I'm. I don't need a prophet. I'm greater. But it's not like that. It's. It's compatible with Mormonism in the sense that I think Mormons would call it the Holy Ghost, but just prayer, just really listening to the inner voice.

Cate Smith [02:05:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:07] Call it the Holy Ghost if you want. Call it God, but also call it your inner wisdom. Just get in contact with it. In or out. A belief in or out of the church.

Cate Smith [02:05:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] Yeah.

Cate Smith [02:05:19] That's been the biggest gift of this entire experience, is just getting to know myself, because I didn't develop myself. I didn't try to.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:26] Yeah, that's right.

Cate Smith [02:05:26] But now I get to.

John Dehlin [02:05:28] And Jesus even said not to frame this in Jesus, but Jesus for those who are Christian. Jesus said the kingdom of God is within. Right.

Cate Smith [02:05:36] Sure did.

John Dehlin [02:05:37] So that it's compatible. You Christians out there, you can do this too.

Cate Smith [02:05:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] You don't have to lose your faith in God or Jesus to be born again.

Cate Smith [02:05:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:05:48] You're born again.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:49] I am.

Cate Smith [02:05:49] I've made it.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:51] Yeah. I just love how you are allowing your own experience to have value, you know, in your own world, as opposed to, like, this sense of, like, you have to give yourself up.

Cate Smith [02:06:05] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:05] You have to be invisible. So I'm just loving that for you. Curious adventuring. Yeah. Leaning into things that seem pleasurable.

Cate Smith [02:06:15] Absolutely. It's been a joy. And it didn't feel that way before.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:20] Yeah.

Cate Smith [02:06:20] And it's been. It's been wonderful.

John Dehlin [02:06:24] And your kids are doing okay?

Cate Smith [02:06:25] They're great. Yes. They're thriving. Yeah. They're four and two right now. It's a lot of fun. They love each other, which is so gratifying. So I love them. I can't imagine my life without them.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] Who knew men could nurture?

Cate Smith [02:06:40] My husband's doing a great job. I know.

John Dehlin [02:06:44] Not that you're not. I'm just joking.

Cate Smith [02:06:47] No, we're all. I feel really grateful that we're all doing what's best for us.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:52] Yeah, that's right.

Cate Smith [02:06:53] That's the way it is.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] That's the way. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, Kate Smith, what a beautiful story. And it's under 2 hours and 10 minutes. We broke a land speed record on Mormon Stories today.

Cate Smith [02:07:07] Nice here to help.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] And Margi, thanks for being co host and for making Mormon Stories podcast better.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:15] It's a pleasure, John.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] All right, well, any final words? Kate, are we good?

Cate Smith [02:07:23] No. Thank you for having me. This was great.

Thank You and Sign-Off

John Dehlin [02:07:25] All right, well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Hope you've enjoyed it. Again, we exist at the generosity of our donors. So if you're a donor. Thank you. If you're not and you want to see content like this continue or you value it, please go to mormonstories.org/donate and become a monthly donor and we'll continue providing this content for as long as you value it. We also really appreciate it. If you'll like and subscribe to these channels, whether it's Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, etc. You can find us all there. We love your comments, especially on YouTube and Spotify.

John Dehlin [02:08:02] That helps with the conversation. It helps with the algorithm. So please comment, like and subscribe. Also, we love your emails@mormonstoriesmail.com and then finally, the way that we found out about Kate, I think is that she applied and recorded a three minute application video.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] So if you are a good storyteller with a good story, Please record a 3 minute video on why you want to be on the show and why you think our viewers and listeners will value what you have to say along with filling out the application. You can go to mormonstories.org apply to apply to be on the show.

John Dehlin [02:08:41] We get a thousand applications a year, but we're always looking. Every week we're like, what's next? What's going to be a good fit for us? So we can't accept all applications, but we will accept ones that are a good fit. It. So please apply, right?

Cate Smith [02:08:58] Oh yeah, do right.

John Dehlin [02:09:00] All right, well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, be a bridge builder and a peacemaker. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.