Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1774

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 6, 2023 and today we are interviewing Josie and Riley Porter. Hi guys.

Rylee Porter [00:00:13] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] And they happen to be daughters of Jeffrey Porter who works for Ensign Peak. And just a quick background of why we're doing the story for those of you who've been following Mormon stories for quite some time will know that we've been covering the leak about the Mormon Church's hundred plus billion dollar investment fund called Ensign Peak that was made known to the world several years ago. We've talked about that, we've talked about recently the Security and Exchange Commission's settlement with the Mormon Church where it was revealed to the world that the Mormon Church has been inappropriately filing or not filing documentation about its assets in intentionally with the desire to keep from the world, and especially from the membership, the massive financial holdings that the church has. And then of course, recently David Nielsen appeared on 60 Minutes as the main Ensign Peak whistleblower to talk about his experiences with Ensign Peak and why he chose to become a whistleblower. So that's the context for today's episode. And, and then after the 60 minutes episode aired with David Nielsen, I received a lovely email from Josie and Riley Porter saying, hey, we grew up back in New Jersey, New York area with a bunch of family members and friends of family within a Mormon context that were all sort of connected to Wall street, connected to kind of this Mormon financial elite. And then we moved to Utah when our dad, Jeffrey Porter went to work for Ensign Peak. And we think we have an interesting perspective to share about growing up Mormon within this kind of Mormon financial elite, Wall street sort of context. And so that was the context for this interview. And I will just say my immediate fear was like, oh my gosh, Riley and Josie, if your dad's still working for Ensign Peak, I don't want to hurt family relationships. I don't want to do any harm to your dad or to again your relationship with your family. So are you sure this isn't going to cause too many problems? And we made sure that we worked through that before we had today's episode. So that's sort of my quick introduction. I'm delighted to have with me today my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:43] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] Thanks for joining.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:44] Yeah, I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] So, yeah, Riley and Josie, welcome, welcome, welcome to Mormon Stories.

JoCee Porter [00:02:53] Thank you. So happy to be here.

Rylee Porter [00:02:54] Happy to be here. Chills, you know, watching, watching it in person. For the first time. This is incredible.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] And y' all did a road trip. Road trip. Just to get here, right?

Rylee Porter [00:03:04] Oh, it was a little bit of a road trip. About halfway through Idaho, we got caught in a torrential downpour.

JoCee Porter [00:03:13] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:03:14] Had to pull over and stop in the car. Oh, my gosh. And.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:17] And should I.

Rylee Porter [00:03:18] Should I tell him? No, I had to use the restroom. I had to use the restroom. So. In a downpour.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Oh, wow.

Rylee Porter [00:03:27] Right. So embarrassing.

JoCee Porter [00:03:29] I know.

Rylee Porter [00:03:30] The most embarrassing. It was really embarrassing for all of us, but we've survived and we are here to tell the tell. And embarrass myself on. On the Internet.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:40] It's a scrappy moment we all can relate to.

Rylee Porter [00:03:43] There's not a lot of options. Many of us can relate.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Yeah. Yeah. And we're just. It's also just fun to have two sisters here. And I'll just say really quickly, this episode is going to be in two parts. Part one is going to be kind of their Mormon stories. Growing up back in New Jersey, Wall street connections, and then moving to Utah when their dad went to work for Ensign Peak, and just their own Mormon experiences and faith journeys kind of separate from the David Nielsen Ensign Peak sort of stuff. Then we'll stop that as part one, and then we'll come back for a part two, which will be your reflections and analysis and historical perspectives on all the inside Peak stuff. But before we jump in, would each of you like to kind of give a quick statement about why you're doing this interview and in a way, why you're not doing the interview? Because people will make assumptions. Oh, you're coming on Mormon stories. You must hate the church or you must want to hurt your parents or, you know, you must want to take people out or whatever. But we want to give you a chance up front to kind of state each of you to state your intentions before we start?

Rylee and JoCee's Intentions in Speaking Out

Rylee Porter [00:04:50] Yeah, I mean, I know for me, my intention is, I mean, just to tell my story and to speak the truth, because that's been speaking truth and speaking truth when it's uncomfortable. And speaking truth to power has been a consistent value that I feel like I've been brought up with and internalized my entire life. And so I know for a fact that I am not doing this to break anyone's confidentiality or put anyone in a bad situation. These are entirely honest and truthful statements and assessments that stem from my own personal experience. And I feel like you get less and less opportunity, you know, when you're fully participating true believing Mormon at least once, once a Month, you get an opportunity to go to a pulpit and openly speak your truth. And those, you know, if you're not as actively engaged in the church anymore, those opportunities get to. Aren't as readily available. And yeah, I don't have a lot of opportunities anymore to speak my truth. So I'm appreciative of this opportunity. It feels like an incredible privilege, quite frankly.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] And it seems like, at least from our talks before, Lizzie Bean's episode was really influential to you.

Rylee Porter [00:06:20] It was so influential to me. Yeah, we'll get there.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] And so like people, maybe people who were able to tell their stories that meant a lot to you, makes you maybe feel like you could maybe help someone else.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:34] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:06:34] And. Well, I mean, I just know personally how meaningful that was when you're going through some of these things that are incredibly challenging personally and you feel so isolated and alone. And then when I stumbled across Mormon stories, it was the first time that I felt heard and seen and felt community with these people that I never met. I mean, I told you personally that I was listening to the Lizzie and Spencer being loving and leaving Mormonism episode while I was driving and had to pull over to the side of the road and stop the car. Cause I was just like mouth open. I've never felt so seen by a stranger in my entire life. And so that meant so much to me in those darkest moments where I felt the most alone. So yeah, if there's anything that I say that someone else benefits from, I mean, that's maybe pretentious to say. That's incredible. I just know how much it meant to me to have a community when I felt like I had none.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Yeah, I love it. Beautiful. Thanks. Riley and Josie, how about you?

JoCee Porter [00:07:38] Yeah, I mean, I'll echo a lot of what Riley said. I know that I'm not here to like, you know, hurt my dad or to like hurt Enzyme Peak specifically. Like, that's, that's not the point. I think I do think it's helpful to have critiques or to like talk about experiences and, and honestly, John, if I could like quit my job and do anything, I'd love to be a full time activist. And that's kind of what I see this role is, is right now to like talk out things that I see that are great and talk about things that I see that are wrong and kind of, you know, have those discussions and, and you know, that would, that would be a dream come true for me. And so this is kind of a step in that direction.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] You'd rather be an activist than A computer programmer.

JoCee Porter [00:08:14] I would, I would. And I tell my coworkers this all the time. And I, I like computer science. I really, really do. But yeah, like, I volunteer for a bunch of. Or I volunteer specifically for a non profit that like advocates for women in stem. And so, like, I'd love to be an advocate for, to help women in STEM and I guess help people like me who are women in computer science. I'd love to do that full time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:08:36] Josie is actually a fairly impressive influencer in that.

JoCee Porter [00:08:40] Not really.

Rylee Porter [00:08:41] Yeah, I'll brag for her then. Yeah, she has a bit of influence as kind of. I mean, what. How do I want to say it?

John Dehlin [00:08:50] As a woman in stem, kind of.

Rylee Porter [00:08:52] Exactly.

JoCee Porter [00:08:52] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:08:53] Specifically, that's what her online community is built on.

JoCee Porter [00:08:56] Yeah, I tried to create that because it doesn't really exist out there, you know, because I'm the only female in every room I go into every single one. Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] In 2023.

JoCee Porter [00:09:06] That's even in 2023. And even in working in for companies that claim that DEI is very important to them, I'm still the only woman on my team and the only woman in every single meeting. And, and so, yeah, I'd love to advocate for women and get women to tell their stories and speak out and share their experiences because I think their voices are important. They've been squashed down for so long and that's not good.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] And that'll come out hopefully in today's episode. What's your platform?

JoCee Porter [00:09:29] Well, it's Josie Holiday.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] And then I have J O C

JoCee Porter [00:09:32] E E. Yes, dot Holiday. H O L L A D A Y. And then my brand is Codeprity Tech. And the idea is that because I was always kind of told growing up that like, oh, you're too pretty to be smart, you're too pretty to be an eng. So I'm flipping that on its head. I'm too pretty to code ugly. And so that's kind of my little thing. So kind of taking that subtle sexist insult and flipping it around, reclaiming. Yeah, Code pretty tech. That's the website, that's the Etsy page.

Rylee Porter [00:10:05] And then all the.

JoCee Porter [00:10:05] She's got stickers, she's got swag. All the Etsy funds go to supporting women in tech initiatives. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] And the first tag again was.

JoCee Porter [00:10:14] That's just my Instagram.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] What is it?

JoCee Porter [00:10:16] Josie Holiday.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] J O C E E dot.

JoCee Porter [00:10:19] H O L L A D A Y.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] Okay, got it.

Rylee Porter [00:10:22] All right.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] I just want to make sure we.

JoCee Porter [00:10:23] Thank you.

Rylee Porter [00:10:24] Thank you. Oh, yeah. And her feed's Impressive. It's.

JoCee Porter [00:10:26] It's a delight. So thank you.

John Dehlin [00:10:28] I. I don't know about that, so I'm subscribing.

JoCee Porter [00:10:31] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:32] So important. Visibility is powerful.

JoCee Porter [00:10:35] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Rylee Porter [00:10:37] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] Well, people.

Rylee Porter [00:10:39] Representation matters, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] People always. I always get a comment like, you took too long to start the interview and we're 10 minutes in. I'll just say is YouTube and all the podcast apps allow you to fast forward. So if you don't like a five to ten minute intro, I just like to get context and intentions out of the way and a little bit of an introduction. But please don't complain to me if you want to skip ahead because technology allows you to skip ahead.

Rylee Porter [00:11:05] The beauty of bookmarks, Right?

JoCee Porter [00:11:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] We even provide timecode links, descriptions. So if you don't know this, you can go to YouTube and we provide time codes so you can jump forward to the beginning of the introduction. That's just a little bit of a instructional education for our viewers and listeners.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:21] Helpful hint.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] Helpful hint. Yeah. All right. But now we're actually ready to begin the interview. And Riley, since you are a few years senior of your sister.

Rylee Porter [00:11:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:33] Maybe we begin with your Mormon story.

Rylee Porter [00:11:36] Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think an important part of this story in context is because to me, this is the story of a family, you know, and so kind of where my parents came from and how that influenced our outlooks and experiences, I think is an important part of that tapestry. Important part. So.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] And really quickly, just. And I know we've already given kind of a disclaimer, but you talked to your parents about doing this interview.

Rylee Porter [00:12:10] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] Do you want to share anything about, like, how as a family, this is being approached? Does that make sense?

Rylee Porter [00:12:19] Yeah. I mean, how much time do you have?

John Dehlin [00:12:22] I mean, just like, you're not, like, it's not. I don't feel like you and your parents are, like, at war and this isn't like a takedown.

Rylee Porter [00:12:30] No.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] So there's some consent involved, even though, right?

Rylee Porter [00:12:33] Yes.

JoCee Porter [00:12:33] I kind of want to say something about that. Like, I think the fact that, like, I can confidently go. Go on here and, like, talk and, like, even give a little bit of critique to. To what my dad does or what he works for. And I know that he will love me unconditionally afterwards speaks to their support, speaks to just how great of parents that they truly are, that I have the confidence to speak out kind of against them sometimes, and they love me no matter what. And I know my dad.

Rylee Porter [00:12:59] It is.

JoCee Porter [00:12:59] And I know that's not the case for, like, for women.

Rylee Porter [00:13:02] Yeah, exactly. We know that we're the exception there.

JoCee Porter [00:13:05] Right. And I know my dad will never give up on his relationship with me as much as, like, you know, he never will. And I think being able to talk confidently is a testament to that. And I hope people see that as a testament to that instead of judge it a little bit. I hope they see how great of parents it is that we can and feel comfortable and know that we're so loved. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:13:26] Well stated.

JoCee Porter [00:13:27] Beautiful.

Rylee Porter [00:13:28] Incredible.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] Yeah. Because, like, I meet a lot of people who are like, children or grandchildren of, like, general authorities and apostles, and it's always like, I can't speak out because there's just a family code or, you know, they'll be embarrassed or they'll be angry.

Rylee Porter [00:13:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] So the fact that your parents knew you were going to do this interview and it's not ruining your relationship with them again, is a real credit to your parents and their love and respect and support for their children. So shout out to. To Jeff and Roxanne. Roxanne.

JoCee Porter [00:14:02] Yeah, the Porter.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Okay, that was good. Thank you for sharing that.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:06] Thank you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] All right.

Rylee Porter [00:14:09] So, I mean, speaking of Jeff, you know, it's usually Jeff and Rox, but yeah, Jeffrey and Roxanne. Jeff, our father, he came from a family of almost destitute, poverty. His family was from Roy, Utah. He was one of six, so smack dab in the middle. He was the third of six children. And I never even growing up, we never knew what our grandfather did for a living. The one kind of meaningful vocation that defined his life and his experience was towards the end of his life, he was called as a bishop. So we always knew grandpa as a bishop. But he.

JoCee Porter [00:14:51] And in Area 70, Grandpa Porter.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Is that what you call it?

Rylee Porter [00:14:54] Grandpa Porter? Yep, our paternal grandpa. So Grandpa Porter. And. And I didn't think about that much until I became an adult. But then as I became an adult and started to hear more stories about my family is there was a couple of business failures that my grandfather experienced and then a long bout of incredible depression where my grandmother really rose to a really challenging situation and became the breadwinner for the family. So my father comes from, like a strong maternal nuclear family where as a post office male woman, she supported a family of six and an incredible woman in Roy, Utah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] Which is where, for those who don't know, what's it near? North of Salt Lake.

Rylee Porter [00:15:48] Exactly. Yeah. You know, kind of in the Layton area. So came from. And obviously that impoverished experience made a lot of Lasting impressions on my dad. Right.

JoCee Porter [00:16:04] He would grow up saying that he never wanted to be poor like that. He did not want his children to be poor. He did not want to be poor like that.

Rylee Porter [00:16:11] Again, his children were going to have a more comfortable experience than what he. Because that was so, you know, influential in his life. And my mom grew up in Brigham City. Yeah. She was a Peach Day Queen. She was absolutely just a beauty.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] That's Bloodkey Packard territory for those.

Rylee Porter [00:16:33] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And her family was a little bit more culturally Mormon, a little bit, like, less traditionally devout, but still. Both of my parents were Mormon. They both had former marriages that dissolved before they met each other. So. And to me, that's kind of like, romantic in and of itself that they came from this place of, you know, heartbreak and then found each other.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] So both your parents were married before they met each other?

Rylee Porter [00:17:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Kids in either of those marriages?

JoCee Porter [00:17:08] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] Okay.

JoCee Porter [00:17:09] And they were both short marriages.

Rylee Porter [00:17:11] Yeah. Like two years, maybe Two years, exactly. Right. But, you know, kind of had a. A whoopsie day a re over. Exactly. Yeah. They were both each other's second marriage, but met each other. Got married and met at BYU or. No, I think they met at a club. I think it was a bar. Pretty sure it's a bar.

JoCee Porter [00:17:34] I remember my mom telling the story that one of her friends was wearing, like, a skirt.

Rylee Porter [00:17:38] No, it was Roxanne. It was. Roxanne was wearing a short leather skirt that my father was very taken by. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] This is the first Mormon Stories interview ever where mom and dad met at a bar. Met at a bar in Utah.

Rylee Porter [00:17:54] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] Are there bars in Utah, by the way?

Rylee Porter [00:17:56] I have no idea where it was, to be honest. I should have asked them. Probably some, like, rural, you know, bar somewhere. But concepts, they were there for a band. A band was playing. Yeah. It was a musical event.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] But were they both. They were both raised Mormon orthodox?

Rylee Porter [00:18:12] No. Well, I feel like my paternal side, my father's family, obviously, especially after the grandpa was a bishop or whatever, was much more orthodox and my mom less so much more culturally, you know, Mormon. Like, I knew at one point before she got married to my dad, she, like, drank coffee, and that was not like, that big of a deal.

JoCee Porter [00:18:32] Right. But they were. I don't know. Do you tell Grandma's story? There's, like, a fun story growing up of, like, kind of to show, like, they were kind of ahead of their time a little bit. Like, my mom dated someone that was black in high school, and her bishop found out about it and, like, got Mad at her. Like, brought her in. And my grandma got very angry about that interaction, went and told that bishop off. Like, you don't get to, like, talk to my daughter about, like, dating this black. Because this is before black people could have the priesthood.

Rylee Porter [00:18:57] Yeah.

Family Background and Parents' Story

JoCee Porter [00:18:57] So that's an interesting story, and I think is kind of cool, so.

Rylee Porter [00:19:00] Totally. Yeah. Yeah. My mom definitely came from, like, a more culturally nuanced, you know, family. So anyways, yeah, they made. Met each other at a bar. My dad got his undergraduate from Weber State, and then they got married. It was a.

JoCee Porter [00:19:21] How do you say, small wedding.

Rylee Porter [00:19:23] Specific wedding. And then they got sealed in the Ogden. Ogden Temple? Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:19:29] Why they picked the Ogden?

Rylee Porter [00:19:30] One of the ugliest.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] It's up there near Weber. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:19:33] But it was so ugly.

Rylee Porter [00:19:34] Yeah. Yeah. It's not one of the pretties. Yeah. It's not one of the prettiest.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] People get married in the temple where you live, Right.

Rylee Porter [00:19:41] Yeah, that's true. That's true. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] But it's not any uglier than the Provo Temple. Well.

Rylee Porter [00:19:46] Cause they're the same, right? Aren't they the same? Yeah, exactly. It wasn't my favorite design. A little brutalistic for my chance, but, yeah. Anyway, so they got married, and I think it was. And I was. They got married. They very quickly moved to Idaho. I think within, like, months of me being born, they moved to Idaho. And I think that. That. I mean, my dad speaks about, I'm the firstborn. That's like, a really big event in his life. And he was like, again, kind of that fear, those anxieties of, I need to provide my family with a better, you know, kind of experience than I was provided. And so he went back to.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] Were you born under the covenant, or were you born before they were sealed?

JoCee Porter [00:20:36] Yeah, they were sealed. They were sealed in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] So they got married civilly, then got sealed, assuming a year later. And then you were born after they were sealed.

JoCee Porter [00:20:43] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:20:44] So 1990, they were married. Simply 1991, they were sealed. 1992, I was born under the covenant.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] Okay. And then 1993, I graduated from college.

Rylee Porter [00:20:53] Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:54] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:20:54] Well. And so 1993, Jeff goes back to get his MBA at BYU. And I think a lot of that was. I mean, he tells this story where he was, you know, driving with me in the backseat, and, you know, my mom was in the passenger seat. And he looks over to Roxanne and is like, I think I'm gonna go back to school. And is just like, white knuckle on the. You know, looking down the road. And it's like, please say yes, please. You know? Cause that would mean she was basically kind of like a single mom. Right? You know, having to. Because she was working at the time already. They were both working. And it's like, you're gonna take away a second income after our first child, you know, like, that was a big, I guess, test of faith or test of their marriage. You know, I think I'm gonna go back to school. And he looks over and Roxanne says, okay, yeah, knowing what that will be. So. So I have, like, really, really early memories of. Of just kind of dad studying a little bit. I mean, it's not like I have, like, detailed memories or whatever, but I

John Dehlin [00:21:54] think he got his MBA from BYU.

Rylee Porter [00:21:56] He got his MBA from BYU. Yeah. And I want to say. So, like, 1997, I think, is when he would have. Or it would have been less than that if it was a master's degree. So it would have been probably like 95. Anyways. So briefly, remember kind of Utah a little bit. And. And it was through a lot of grace and community provided by the church that they were able to do that. Right. Because my mom had to work. So there were babysitters, church members that were directly. You know, and. And they talk about these people like angels in their lives, you know, to.

JoCee Porter [00:22:33] They were. They saved them in a lot of ways.

Rylee Porter [00:22:35] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:22:35] Yeah. The church community gave a lot of support. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why they picked byu. Right. Cause I know that my dad got other offers into other.

Rylee Porter [00:22:44] Northwestern.

JoCee Porter [00:22:46] Stanford. Right.

Rylee Porter [00:22:47] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:22:47] And they picked.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] He got offers to go to Stanford. Mba, school from Weber as an undergrad.

Rylee Porter [00:22:53] Yes. That's cool.

JoCee Porter [00:22:55] It's impressive.

Rylee Porter [00:22:56] Our father's an incredible story. I mean, and even back, he must

John Dehlin [00:22:59] have been a good student at Weber.

Rylee Porter [00:23:00] Well, no. Well, a good student at Weber. He was a horrible high school student. I mean, he barely, barely, barely got into Weber State. And you know what the difference was is the mission. I mean, he speaks about his LDS mission. He went to Vienna, Austria, and that

John Dehlin [00:23:18] mission turned him around.

Rylee Porter [00:23:19] That was, I think, the first structural discipline of his life. And that. And that meant everything. I think that he knew that he was smart. I think there was maybe not a lot of, like, guidance and structure in the home.

JoCee Porter [00:23:31] They were so poor, you know, he had no opportunity.

Rylee Porter [00:23:35] No. Yeah. No connections.

JoCee Porter [00:23:38] He went to Weber State and then got 4.0 and then. Yeah. Got offers in. In these great schools. And they picked byu, and I think because they wanted to stay within, like, the Mormon Support realm, families still nearby. Which makes sense. When you have a newborn baby going, going to a place you don't live would be really hard.

Rylee Porter [00:23:56] Well, and I think dad had a lot of respect for byu. I mean he's a good school.

JoCee Porter [00:24:00] It's a really good business school.

Father's Career Path to Wall Street and Finance

Rylee Porter [00:24:01] Especially their business school. Right. I mean, yeah, it's. He was not taking a second rate education when he decided, but he was smart enough to get into these Ivy League. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] Right around these years. Not to be self referent, referential, but I'm just geeking out a little bit. Right around these years. 94. I was working at Bain as an undergrad, having graduated and I was considering Kellogg or Stanford or Harvard or mit, you know, grad school. But normally you had to do two years at like a work experience of really good work experience before you could even qualify for these elite MBA programs. So did he do a couple years?

Rylee Porter [00:24:39] He did.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] Prior to MBA school?

JoCee Porter [00:24:41] He did. He didn't go straight to MBA school. There was work in between and he was working up in Idaho. That's why they were up in Idaho.

Rylee Porter [00:24:47] Something in sales.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:24:50] And it's, it's really interesting. Kind of like the stories you get from the parents and the stories you don't get from your parents. You know, you get like brief glimpses but not the full outline of situations, but something in sales. And he hated sales.

JoCee Porter [00:25:03] You like it?

John Dehlin [00:25:04] Well, the reason I'm also. It's just really hard to get into Stanford or Wharton or North Kellogg, you know, or Harvard. And so I, I'm really impressed. I think he had process, turned all that down. I went to byu. Usually you don't turn down Stanford or Kellogg or Wharton to go to byu. Mba.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:22] Yes.

Rylee Porter [00:25:22] Well. And I think he had professors who were so impressed by him that wrote him glowing letters of recommendations and kind of like went to bat to help provide experiences and opportunities for this kid that they saw had potential.

JoCee Porter [00:25:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:25:38] And a kid from the wrong side of the tracks a little bit who had potential. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:25:43] But so from there and then when he was an mba, he was, he, when he tells the story that he's pretty quick. He wanted to be on Wall Street. Right. And so he took out a loan from his mother in law.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:53] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:25:53] My mom' mom. And flew to New York and you know, did what you did back in the day before he had LinkedIn and he went like knocking on people's doors to just try and get a breakout on Wall Street. And he knew he wanted to be on Wall street because he was meant to be a trader and invest an investor. And so he was determined to do that. And then. And he did.

Rylee Porter [00:26:13] Yeah, he made it. Yeah, yeah. I don't think that he had any connections to the east coast at all, but like Josie said, literally flew out and was just talking to people and doing like the personal door to door networking until he finally caught a break, basically.

JoCee Porter [00:26:32] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:26:32] And then shortly thereafter, we moved to New Jersey for the first time. And that's where, like my, you know, formative early core memories really start to kick in is I don't remember Utah at all. I remember New Jersey. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:46] Well, the idea of a Mormon boy from Roy ending up on Wall street, you know, who grew up poor, that's a cool story.

Rylee Porter [00:26:54] He is, he's.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] And we are always aware, helping him get there. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:26:58] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:26:58] And I think my mom needs like a huge shout out.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:00] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:27:00] Like, not only like, was she like a single mom essentially at this point? Because like. And she was paying for it. Right. Like. And she had a breadwinner of the family baby, a newborn baby, her first kid.

Rylee Porter [00:27:11] I know that a lot of mothers, you know, struggle with kind of leaving the first, you know, to go back to work, but she had no other option.

JoCee Porter [00:27:18] And when she had the second kid, me, like, it was also like a new place. Like my mom, she was like, she's

Rylee Porter [00:27:26] a feminist before her time. Yeah, yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:27:28] It was very cool, very powerful.

Rylee Porter [00:27:29] We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] So they waited four years to have you, Josie.

Rylee Porter [00:27:33] Not unintentionally.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] It just took that long. Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:27:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:27:38] But so, yeah, I mean, I honestly don't know where his first break would be as in like what the first job was. I just remember being on the east coast and I mean, it's interesting that you say that, you know, it's very. Because it is absolutely like prestigious that a kid from a hick from Roy Utah makes his way onto the financial of Wall Street. But Wall street loves Mormons. I don't think that's any secret. Especially more and more so today. I mean, when you're one of those like Wall street employer, like you've done the two year proselytizing mission. You're very good at, you know, being persistent in the face of adversion. You know, you have a sales like attitude. You don't drink, you're married, you're settled, you're responsible, you're an ideal employee. An industrious, hard working, ethical, you know, don't lie, don't cheat. You know, which is really unique in the dog Eat dog world of, you know, Wall Street. So Mormons are well known and loved

JoCee Porter [00:28:46] and well represented, too.

Rylee Porter [00:28:48] Yeah, Over. I would say overly represented.

JoCee Porter [00:28:50] Well, just. They are CEOs, too. Right. They're also overrepresented in Wall street as investors.

Rylee Porter [00:28:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:28:56] It's kind of like Jews and Mormons really punch above their populous representational weight, you know, and financial epicenters of the world a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] Oh, that makes sense.

Rylee Porter [00:29:09] Yeah. And I think a lot of it has to speak to, like, discipline and stuff. So I don't know what his first job was, but at one point he is hired by Coke Industries, which, I mean, I imagine a lot of your listeners don't.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] You know, that's K O C H, Right.

Rylee Porter [00:29:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] So not different than Coca Cola.

Rylee Porter [00:29:29] Not Coca Cola Brothers. The Koch brothers. Koch Brothers from Wichita, Kansas, which is

JoCee Porter [00:29:35] where I was born.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:36] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:29:36] So, I mean, I wrote this down. If you're like, what's the word that I'm looking for? Audience ever looks for an incredible book to read if you want to take a break from theology or Mormonism. Is Dark Money. The Hidden History of the Billionaires behind the Rise of the Radical Right by Jane Mayer. And it's basically an expose on the Koch brothers specifically. These are, like, I'm pretty sure they're. If not the wealthy or they're not the wealthiest.

JoCee Porter [00:30:10] They're the wealthiest landowners in New York. They are. Their dad is.

Rylee Porter [00:30:14] No, no, no, that's in Kansas. But they're one of the biggest, like, private enterprises in this country are the Koch brothers.

JoCee Porter [00:30:19] And they're huge in New York. I know. They're one of the richest people in New York.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] So he was hired 10 years ago. They were just. It was Coke, Coke, Coke all the time.

JoCee Porter [00:30:27] All the time.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] They were super influential in conservative politics.

Rylee Porter [00:30:32] They still are. Yeah. And they still. Yeah, and they're in. Their legacy. Still is, but.

JoCee Porter [00:30:36] Right. And so he was working for. For them and worked with the brothers directly sometimes. Like, on some level.

Rylee Porter [00:30:44] No, he knows Charles Koch. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] He was doing investments for the Koch brothers.

Rylee Porter [00:30:49] Yeah, yeah. So this is where things get interesting is they were. So Coke has to do with energy in all forms, like, you know, oil and gas. Exactly. Yep. So he became a trader.

JoCee Porter [00:31:03] A weather derivative.

Rylee Porter [00:31:04] Well, before he gets to weather derivatives. Give me a second. Let me get there. Let me get there, girl. Golly. So, yeah, he's working for the Koch brothers originally just, like, in oil and energy. And then at one point. And this is really important. Important because he was kind of like a founding member of this Discipline. And what became this incredible market was weather derivatives, which. Derivatives are always funny to me. Have you seen like the Wolf of Wall Street?

John Dehlin [00:31:31] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:31:32] And it's like, you know, they have to have Margot Robbie, you know, in a bathtub to make and to explain derivatives, to make it sexy enough to under. Like it is just now.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] Was that. Was that Wolf of Wall street or was that the Big Short?

Rylee Porter [00:31:46] Oh, that's right, it is. It's the Big Short, which is one

John Dehlin [00:31:48] of the best movies I've ever seen in my life. Everyone needs to go watch the. It's a faith. It's a. It's a movie about the financial collapse. Yeah, but it's just as much a movie about a loss of faith in systems and institutions. It's almost a faith crisis movie too. But anyway, Margot Robbie Big Short. Keep going.

Rylee Porter [00:32:04] Yes, you're right. Yeah, it's, it's definitely the Big Short. But derivatives are just, I mean, I couldn't explain them to you, I don't think. I think they're intentionally supposed to be kind of complicated.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Some complex financial instrument where you can, where sophisticated people can make a ton of money, but other people lose a lot of money.

Rylee Porter [00:32:22] Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And to make that palatable, you have to have Margot Robbie explain it while she's, you know, drinking champagne in a tub.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Bubble bath.

Rylee Porter [00:32:30] Yeah, yeah, but so our dad was kind of like one of these frontier mavericks of what is now called weather derivatives trading. So he was trading weather information and weather intel because that in and of itself is a source of power if you know what the weather's going to be. And that's proprietary information. You make trades on that the same way that you make trades on oil and other securities.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] Isn't weather information public information?

Rylee Porter [00:32:58] Right, but I mean, this was kind of like early. I don't, I mean, I think that this was still like early 90s before, you know, the ubiquitousness of information everywhere. Okay, again, I could not explain it to you.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] I get it. He was doing fancy investment stuff that was weather related for the Koch brothers

Rylee Porter [00:33:14] on it on a trading floor.

JoCee Porter [00:33:15] I thought he was the weatherman growing up. I'm pretty sure I called the weather.

Rylee Porter [00:33:18] Yeah, I thought he was in the CIA. Again, it's like really interesting how little like he really told us about his day to day life. But we knew that it was all consuming. Right. So this is kind of where. And because he was involved with the Koch brothers and the Koch industries, this is where the moving begins all of the time for me. So I was like living in New Jersey. For a substantial amount of time, we moved to Kansas. And in 96, Josie's born in Kansas, we move back to New Jersey.

JoCee Porter [00:33:50] I was two months old.

Rylee Porter [00:33:52] Yeah, after two months are there for a short amount of time, we move to Texas, my brother is born, and then we move back to New Jersey for at that point, which is like the longest consecutive years that I was like in one location. But so this is like where the church kind of really starts to play a role in my life is they were the only consistent community I ever knew. I mean, because I every year was basically starting a new grade, a new. I was starting grade school in a new place all of the time. I was always the new girl. I always a little bit felt like an outsider, had to like make friends at the beginning of every school year. But consistently what was my community, because my parents were faithful Mormons, was going to church on Sunday and having Sunday school friends, and because we kept ping ponging back to New Jersey, that the ward that we were involved with in New Jersey was like the most consistent of any of my social support systems. And this was the Short Hills ward in New Jersey, which I now lovingly and endearingly call the Wall street ward a little bit. Because that as. As unique as it is, at least for the Short Hills experience, that was pretty standard. Most of those families there, the story was they were not New Jersey natives by any stretch of the imagination. It was mostly BYU MBA grads who were either in like financial banking like Goldman Sachs, or they were kind of doing, you know, they were doing something where their work required them to be on Wall street, to work in New York City. And then the families lived in the plush suburbs of New Jersey. Yeah, got it. Yeah. Do you have any questions at this point?

John Dehlin [00:35:51] This is great.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:52] I have a couple of questions.

Rylee Porter [00:35:53] Please.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:55] So in your childhood, as you reflect on maybe your relationship with your dad in particular, just because so much of this I think is focused, what do you remember about him? Do you remember him like, was he home? Was there like a schedule that you remember that you could rely on with him? Did he seem stressed, like during your kind of your young years? What do you remember about him?

Rylee Porter [00:36:22] That's such a great question. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:23] And.

Rylee Porter [00:36:24] Well, it's funny because Josie and I were talking about this on, on the nine hour drive over that you guys heard too much about. But we both kind of recognized that our father was probably the most like influential personality in our growing up because he just had. I feel like even to this day he plays like a really Outsized role even in our adult lives, because he's just like a gravitational force. He just is like such a charismatic personality that makes him like so good at what he does that. All I knew was that, like, people loved my dad and revered my dad and thought that my dad was. And so I grew up with this idea that like, my dad was just the. The cat's meow or, you know, the cat's pajamas, all of these dorky things that our grandma used to say. Anyways. But he was busy all of the time. Absolutely. He was stressed all of the time. This was. I remember before cell phones, and he'd be walking around with like the corded phone because so much of trading is like being involved in other people's, you know, I mean, I don't know what else to say, but being involved in like the day to day of everything and it's connecting and it's talking to this person and confirming what he said with this guy. So he is on the phone constantly. This is pre Internet and this was pre Internet. Exactly.

JoCee Porter [00:37:48] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:37:49] I mean, they. I think they had the Bloomberg index, but a lot of it was just like calling people on the phone. It's not like looking at your phone and doing emails. So he's just on the phone constantly confirming intel, confirming things.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] And timing matters. So things get really intense. Right.

Rylee Porter [00:38:04] Exactly. Exactly. And it never stops, you know?

JoCee Porter [00:38:08] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:38:08] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:38:09] I don't. Like, he was gone most days. He'd be there on weekends for sure and always like went to church. But he. He was gone before we woke up and he was. Came back after he went to bed every single day.

Rylee Porter [00:38:20] Yeah.

Growing Up With an Absent Father and Helicopter Mother

Margi Dehlin [00:38:21] So was your family culture then kind of more created by your mom? And if so, like, I'm curious what you remember about being in your home and kind of your family culture and you like what you. How you would describe you as a young girl?

Rylee Porter [00:38:43] I think so. Growing up, I had a more estranged relationship with my mom. And I think a lot of that was in ways that I recognized how impressive my mom is in an individual in some ways. And I'm just gonna be honest with you, wasn't like as advertly recognized as like. We knew that my dad was right. You know, it was like my dad was the go getter. He was the impressive guy. And I think my mom. I don't think. I mean, I know that my mom struggled a lot leaving Utah. I mean, I think quite frankly, given the opportunity, we probably. I mean, Jeff was pursuing his dreams and it was like, just hold on, Rox. Just hold on, you know, we're just gonna get through this. You know, let me make something for you, for us. And then at some point, like, it will. It will be okay. So I think she was living in a place of anxiety and fear and panic all of the time. She had incredible social anxiety before this was a diagnosed or talked about thing. She even struggled in, like, church environments because, I mean, my parents tell this, like, beautiful story of. She was once, like, called to say a closing prayer. And like I said, she was a peach queen. She was a smoke show. So apparently someone in the congregation was like, and will the, you know, beautiful young lady in the red dress give the closing prayer? And my dad, who's sitting right next to her, knows that that's gonna be such an overwhelming thing that at the end of the meeting, he stands up and says the closing prayer, even though people are like, is that the beautiful lady? And the young. You know, the beautiful young lady in the red dress. But because anything is like, even saying a public prayer was monumentally challenging for my mom. So at least for me, I felt. I mean, and this is gonna sound tragic or maybe more tragic than I mean it to be, but I remember waking up myself and making Pop Tarts in the dark and then going and catching the bus before anyone kind of, like, was around or awake. We didn't have, you know, there was, like, no morning routine or anything. And. And then I was also. And this is, again, an unfair comparison because I was around these east coast kids with very hyper, involved mothers. They were part of the pta. They were like, you know, helicopter mothers, I think, is what they call in some. In some circles. And my mom was that. That was in no place where she was going to be comfortable or perform or feel. So I resented my mom for a long time, for a lot of those things. And because my personality is outgoing and talkative, I just always kind of, for a long time, thought that my mom didn't like me. Looking back, I understand now, and this is a little bit of context, but I think I just made her crazy uncomfortable because we would go to New York City to visit my dad, and I'm running off, and she's, you know, a girl from, like, Brigham City, Utah, hates the city, hates the subway. And I'm talking to everyone on the street and, like, running around like, I own the city, just like a monkey in a jungle gym. Because that's how I felt. I felt like, you know, a New York girl. And I loved it, and I loved the energy, and I loved talking to people and interact. And I think I just made my mom's life miserable, and she probably had a really hard time understanding me because we were such polarized, different personalities. So. Yeah, I think that was a good question.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] So I'm getting the sense that your dad was gone a lot. Super busy. Your mom might have felt overwhelmed by him being gone all the time. Isolated down the fort. Isolated. And she wasn't like Miss New York City, so it left her feeling kind of even more isolated. Is that what I'm hearing?

Rylee Porter [00:42:36] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] And that left you feeling like you maybe as a kid and your memories are that for no fault of anyone's, you didn't feel like you maybe had the support that you would have liked because it was a very hectic and chaotic and overwhelming upbringing for your mom.

Rylee Porter [00:42:52] Yeah. Yeah. Is that right? Absolutely. Yeah. And then compare that to, you know, my classmates who have mothers who are hyper involved in everything. I was just like, come on, mom, why aren't you here on my field trip with me? You know?

John Dehlin [00:43:06] And it could be if your mom had married Jeff and grew up and they moved to Brigham City and he was like a local car dealer or

Rylee Porter [00:43:13] whatever, it would have been a completely different experience. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] So we're not smashing her. We're just basically saying that context wasn't maybe optimally suited for your mom.

Rylee Porter [00:43:23] Yeah. Yeah. And again, not to, you know, get ahead of myself, but it was when we kind of moved into environments where my mom was comfortable that I saw her thrive in her own right. And that's when I was like, wow, my mom is an impressive lady, you know?

John Dehlin [00:43:38] Yeah. And so I think to bring it to Mormonism, I guess, when families make these big moves to do the intellectual or the financial or the business elite kind of stuff, maybe there are hidden sacrifices made by wives and children to support the husbands becoming management consultants or CEOs or investment bankers or whatever it ends up being. There's a hidden cost.

Rylee Porter [00:44:06] 100%.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] See, when they see all the power and the money and the influence.

Rylee Porter [00:44:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] They don't necessarily see the sacrifices.

Rylee Porter [00:44:14] And it's a familial sacrifice. 100%. I couldn't have said it better myself.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:18] I like the tie, too, to gender roles, because I do think that's a key component when one person is really taking on the, you know, providing role. And this is true in our story. This is true in so many stories that it becomes the deciding factor.

JoCee Porter [00:44:35] It does. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:36] In the family, no questions asked. It's just like, this is what we need to do.

Rylee Porter [00:44:40] We have to do the job.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:41] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] But having worked at Bain and Arthur Anderson and Microsoft, there's something different than like being a sole provider and providing for the family and trying to do the elite business thing. Because I remember Margi, when we first. When I first went to work for Bain, I'd get on a plane Monday morning, fly to Houston from Dallas, and fly home Friday at the end of the day. And then Margi was just left home alone all week. And those are the types of sacrifices you make if you go kind of the elite business track.

Rylee Porter [00:45:12] Yeah. Oh, and it takes his time all and same thing. I mean, he was traveling a lot. He still travels a lot. I mean, yeah, he was traveling all of the time to maintain these business dealings and business relationships. And so my mom was alone a lot and she came from a close knit family of sisters. I know that she really missed all of her sisters. Again, this is also where the church provided kind of like the one community that we knew. And it goes back to the Short Hills Ward in New Jersey because we kind of became involved with two families that were cousins of each other. So, yeah, this is going back to the Short Hills Ward and, and here for a little bit, I want to talk about kind of the cultural experience that I experienced with Mormonism growing up. I was so fully invested in my innate uniqueness about being a Mormon. When you're a Mormon outside of Utah and you're a minority, that is such an integral part of your story, of your narrative, and even of like your person, like your identity, and that's just like so acutely meaningful to your experience. I have this quick story. I was like in the third grade and the school teacher asked, you know, because when you're on the East Coast, I think it's the same on the West Coast. Diversity, especially ethnic diversity, is like celebrated. Right. Everyone, you know, knows that. My grandparents were Italian. No, my grandparents were Irish. And they came over during the potato famine, you know, like a lot of strong cultural ties to their ancestors. And so, you know, we were going to talk about where your family came from and what was your cultural heritage. And that was the wording. What was your cultural heritage? So I go home and I'm, you know, go over and I ask my dad and I was like, hey, dad, you know, what's my cultural heritage? And he was like, you're Mormon? And I'm like, I mean, that sounded 100%, you know, correct me. I was like, yep, that's right. I am a Mormon, you know, and that's as far back as like the ancestry went was somewhere in the plains. Right. Like a Mormon pioneer. But that just speaks to how important it was to basically all of our identities is that mantleship of being a Mormon where there's not a lot of Mormons. You are unique and different and you feel unique and different. And so I remember going back to school the next day, you know, and we're going around and this person is, you know, from their family's from Taiwan and this person's from wherever and they get to me and it's like, Riley, you know, what's your cultural heritage? And I'm like, I'm a Mormon. And I remember the teacher like looked at me and was like, that's a religion, sweetheart. You know, And I remember feeling mortified. It was like the first time, like you, you know, it's not an age where you want to like say the wrong thing in front of the class. And I remember being so angry at my dad. I was like, dad, what do you mean that Mormon. That's right. Mormons are religion, Mormonism. But you know, in my dad's defense, now that was his cultural heritage was Mormonism.

JoCee Porter [00:48:25] What age was this? What year?

Rylee Porter [00:48:26] Third grade.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] I don't know if people like this comparison, but I think of being Mormon as I think of Jews being Jewish.

Rylee Porter [00:48:37] It's a tribe.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] It's probably a bad comparison, but that's how I think about it.

Rylee Porter [00:48:40] No, I mean, I honestly think it's an apt comparison. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I was really impressed with the Mormons there because you had to. It was not easy or convenient to be a Mormon or to live that religion. When you're a minority, you are different and weird and maybe even kind of like, you know, teased a little bit because you don't drink coffee. My dad goes to business meetings and he doesn't drink wine at dinner. With everyone else, you were markedly different. And so in some ways I think that that is formative. Other ways I see how a persecuted mindset was also a component of that narrative, you know, all of the time. And possibly being a Mormon is like overemphasized as like a part of my identity. But was so impressed with all of the. I mean, all of these Mormons are high achieving, impressive Mormons. Like, you have to be really on

John Dehlin [00:49:44] your game back in New York, in New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [00:49:47] Yeah, yeah. I mean, you have to sacrifice to go to church. It's a three hour drive or a two hour drive. It's not like, you know, you walk to church down the street corner. If you want to participate in seminary, it's early Mormon seminary or early morning seminary. It's not just like across the street. So, yeah, that was a big part of my experience was basically being surrounded by what felt like intelligent, well educated integrity or integral, nuanced Mormons. And all of the conversations that we had were like, intellectual. You know, this will kind of come into Josie's story later. But when I started the young women's program, all of the conversations. Conversations felt like stimulating and intellectual. And we talked about scripture and the nuances of scripture and the modern application of scripture. I didn't really get like cultural Mormon lessons until we moved to Utah, quite frankly. But so I was fully invested. I mean, as a youth, every year, every summer, over our summer break, we were challenged to read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. I did that a couple of times. So, yeah, I became a youth. And like a big moment there for me was this was right around the Manhattan temple was built, which was an exceptional deal for everyone that was there, because I think before that, the closest temple was Washington, D.C. and we would

JoCee Porter [00:51:14] do family weekend trips to Washington, D.C. for the entire weekend. We'd get babysat by different parents and the parents would switch off going and getting their. Doing their temple work. And this was like once every six months, once a year. Yeah, Big, big events. And they were fun. They were a lot of fun.

Rylee Porter [00:51:29] Yeah. So the Manhattan Temple Jubilee was like a big deal for me. This is also where my. When I listened to Lizzie and Spencer Bean's Loving and Leaving Mormonism that she talked about how much fun it was participating in the Palmyra Pageant. Am I saying that right? It is the Pyron. Okay. Yeah. Because that's what the opening of the Manhattan Temple Jubilee was. So the church rented out Radio City Music hall, which, I mean, if. Yeah, if you're. I mean, I grew up being in love with Broadway, so I was like, you mean we're gonna perform for the profit where the Rockettes dance? Like, I mean, that was an incredible deal. So they rented out Radio City Music hall for months, right when I turned. Cause you had to be 12 or older to participate. It was a youth program. We practiced and rehearsed these songs and these dances. It was like, I mean, yeah, the. And I know that you speak to this John. The, like, performative aspect and the rich culture of arts and music. I still love that about Mormonism. I thought that I was gonna be on Broadway until I realized that maybe that was silly or whatever, but this was a dream come true for me. Was the Manhattan Temple Jubilee.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] And Google's telling me that was around 2004. Does that sound right?

Rylee Porter [00:52:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:52:47] Yep. And Hinckley was the prophet. Hinckley was like, you know how the prophet of your youth kind of always like, is like the most prominent prophet? Hinckley was the prophet of my youth. And so I didn't get to shake his hand, but I got it. Yeah. Josie got to shake his hand and I got to see him walk by. When did you get to shake his hand? I can't remember.

JoCee Porter [00:53:06] That's the same experience. Right. So I went up a. During that time. And so Hinckley in the first Presidency, they were staying at a hotel.

Rylee Porter [00:53:14] Marriott. Right.

JoCee Porter [00:53:15] One of the Marriotts. That one of the gals in my church, in my class, my group class, as an 8 year old. CTR 8. Her dad ran that hotel. So before he arrived, they brought our class, just us 8 year olds, and we were able to sing for the prophet directly, like just right outside his hotel room and shake his hand and talk to him. And I loved that experience. That was a really cool experience. And so, yeah, I met him. That's cool.

Rylee Porter [00:53:41] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:53:42] That's from Monson too, Right? Because he was the first presidency at the time.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] Yeah. For a Mormon kid meeting a prophet. I remember when I met Ezra Tap Benson, like, it's almost like meeting Jesus. It's like the next best thing to

JoCee Porter [00:53:53] meet in Jesus, being like, I'm never gonna wash this hand, you know, like, it was so cool.

Rylee Porter [00:53:59] Yeah. So that was the beginning of my youth experience was that, you know, Manhattan Temple Jubilee and.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:08] Quite a start.

Rylee Porter [00:54:08] Yeah, a phenomenal start. And then quite honestly, I loved my youth it experience in New Jersey. My young women's leader. And. And I know that this is okay to say. David Nielsen's wife, Carly Nielsen, was my first, like beehive, you know, leader. And I was so impressed with her. And quite frankly, all of the women in leadership, they were. And I'll speak about Carly specifically because she's so dear to my heart is she's such a articulate, impressive, thoughtful, conscientious leader that like, I know that we all felt special under her and she talked to us that like we were equals. It was not this, like infantile patronization sort of language. I mean, she was a well educated woman and she really interacted with us beautifully and like equals and valued our decisions. And there was like a discourse in young women's we. I didn't just feel talked at. I felt like I was a part of this, like, intellectual Discussion about what it meant to be a Mormon and what it meant to be a Mormon living in the last dispensation and stuff. Yeah. So also my girls camp experience was, was kick ass, I want to say it was. We, they rented like an incredible basically summer camp area and the Poconos, which is, you know, these mountains of Pennsylvania. And there was, it was like your stereotypical summer camp experience. There was a lake, there was high adventure, we were rock climbing. You know, there was like a big zip line swing. We lived in these cabins. There was a mess hall. Like, I had a quintessential summer camp experience that was like the highlight of my summer. Every summer, you know, we came and that was the same of like my peers. Right. They all went to like these prestigious elite, you know, summer camp experiences and like the cat skills and everything else. And I was like, I did too. You know, my girls camp, my summer camp was like this incredible and also it was like a really spiritual testimony, burning experience. I remember like the last day, which was a week long thing. It was never like these silly, like two day overnight, you know, girls camps where you paint each other's nails. It was an incredible summer camp experience where I really started to realize how much the outdoor recreations meant to me. I just loved being outside and I loved every part of that and how we closed that girls camp as we went to the lake. And we had these like little two by four wooden boards that had a candle on top of it. And we lit our candles and like set them out onto the lake. And so in the starlight, they're like floating there and we'd sing hymns. And I just remember that was like such a meaningful. I felt like, I felt the spirit so much. I was like on fire with this community of women that meant so much to me. So I had incredibly faith building experiences all throughout my, you know, New Jersey experience.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Yeah. And this is just reminding me to kind of pause, especially for people who've never been Mormon. But there's a big chunk of Mormonism, Mormon culture that we really, that really hasn't been reflected well on Mormon stories. There are these enclaves or pockets of kind of elite Mormons like Potomac, Maryland, like Cambridge, Massachusetts or like Lexington, Massachusetts or Berkeley or Walnut Creek, California or San Francisco, where powerful, rich Mormons kind of congregate and they're all kind of white. They tend to be white collar professionals. And but there's this, and like you say, there's a special brand of kind of educated, liberal elite progressive Mormonism, but it's Also very devout and very committed Mormonism. And it's just a whole nother. And Margi, I think Margi's parents converted to a ward very much like the one you're describing in Potomac, Maryland. And that's why I mentioned it. And my friend Russ, friends Russ and Wayne Moorhead came out of that Potomac experience as well. But it's, it's its own little subculture of Mormonism that when we talk about Draper and we talk about Lehigh and we talk about Provo, it really does get represented on Mormon stories. And you guys are kind of representing it.

Community Life in New Jersey and Back East

Rylee Porter [00:58:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:38] Really, really quickly, Josie, like, we'll kind of ping pong back and forth a little bit. So. So Riley, you've been able to give kind of your. Some of your early reflections of growing up in this New Jersey Mormon experience. Let's pause, Riley, and have you kind of reflect on some of those. And then we'll come right back and we'll bounce back and forth.

JoCee Porter [00:58:58] Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, I was so young during this time. I was like 8, 10 and younger, so I don't remember as much, but I do remember the community that we had or the pseudo family that we had. I remember we went to Christmas. We didn't go home to Utah always for Christmas, but we'd have Christmas with our ward, right. With like certain families within the ward. We'd celebrate Christmas with them and we'd celebrate and they embraced us because they were an actual family. They were cousins and they brought us in and. And we were there all the time. And like, I considered them like cousins and whether or not they, you know, knew that. But yeah, they were very impactful and we had an actual family within the ward and I think that's like, really, really cool.

Rylee Porter [00:59:41] And if I may, I think an important part also of our lived experience about Mormonism outside of Utah is the religious and diversity. Tolerance is. You have to be tolerance of all walks of faith, of all religions. And so Josie, tell them where you went to pre K. Oh, yeah, I

JoCee Porter [01:00:01] went to a Catholic preschool. I went to preschool with nuns and everyone in the ward did too. It's not like we were the only one. In fact, like, we would have because it was a great school and that's why we went. And so.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] And maybe the inner city public schools weren't great.

JoCee Porter [01:00:16] Well, we saw New Jersey, they were great schools too. And this was pre K. So this is like before you could get into like preschool, like we were school before school. And so, yeah, the best one was the Catholic one. So we went and I remember they like, during, like Ash Wednesday, you know, like the, the kids that were Catholic would like, celebrate that. And then there was enough Mormons within the. That class that we would like, be out and like, do our own thing and not participate. And it was no big deal, but there's enough of us that we could like, play tag, you know, so, like, there was enough of the Mormons within the Catholic school doing that.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] But it sounds like this Utah centric worldview of like, the world is Mormon and the world is like Utah. It sounds like you get a different worldview growing up.

JoCee Porter [01:01:00] It wasn't there at all. And like, even like people's like, personal experiences, like, it's not like everyone in the ward, you know, like, came from the exact same. I mean, a lot of the rich elite did, but like the war. New Jersey is a very poverty stricken ward.

Rylee Porter [01:01:13] Right. So there was diversified.

JoCee Porter [01:01:15] A lot of people that were poor or a lot of people that were like recent immigrants that were also there that you got to like, experience with and just got like a, a cultural richness that I feel like is sometimes lacking in Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:01:25] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:01:26] Which is, which is unfortunate, but. Yeah, like, like we celebrated all holidays.

Rylee Porter [01:01:31] Hanukkah.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:32] Right?

Rylee Porter [01:01:32] We celebrated Hanukkah.

JoCee Porter [01:01:33] Yeah. I knew how to play the dreidel.

Rylee Porter [01:01:35] Dreidel, dreidel, dreidel. I made it out of clay and

JoCee Porter [01:01:38] when it's dry and ready. Right. Like, and. And we celebrated all these things. Right. I remember watching Islamic prayers one time during class because we had like a, A Ramadan. Yeah. And like, and they would fast and we'd eat their bread and we'd eat their food. And they like.

Rylee Porter [01:01:52] I participated in Passover because I had Jewish friends, right? Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:01:57] And that was very accepted. And within the schools they, like, accepted it. And within the community as well.

Rylee Porter [01:02:01] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:02:01] Like within our friend groups. But even within the Mormons, they, like, that were there, they accepted these different religions as, I don't know if I want to say, equal, because I think there's kind of a little bit of like, superior.

Rylee Porter [01:02:12] There's still the superiority. Right. There's still a little bit of like, these are our brothers and sisters and they're confused and they'll be saved. And we love them, you know, for everything that they contribute. So there's true. It's really interesting. It's this dichotomy of awareness and tolerance with this understanding of innate elitism. Because you are the chosen one. I mean, you're called. But fewer chosen, right. This distinction. So this is kind of the analogy or story that I like to give all the time. And then I do want to speak about the social, socioeconomic disparity that existed within the ward itself because I think that's an important aspect of that. But how I would explain New Jersey Mormons to Utah Mormons when we did move to. You know, spoiler alert. We do move to Utah at some point. But how to explain like New Jersey Mormons when we moved to Utah is I would say imagine a Mormon church and it's a Mormon church where you're about to begin the Sunday service and there's a biker looking rough gentleman who's like smoking a cigarette, maybe like threw out a beer can leaning up against the side of the building. In New Jersey, it was our experience that it's like, we don't know you, brother. So and so are you looking to come in, please? We'd love for you to come inside. Would you like to participate in our program where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You know, what brings you to these parts? We're just happy to have you. So inclusive, so understanding where take that same individual who's maybe hanging outside of a church in Utah right before Sunday school starts and it's like, do you see that vagabond who's standing outside? What do you. Do you think we should call the police? Like, what is the. It is not this inclu. It's. The Mormons outside of Utah are so inclusive. And I think an aspect of that is because you have to be. Because you are surrounded by cultural and social diversity all the time that you're. You have to be tolerant of everyone to expect the same tolerances that you expect. Right, Right. But within that, within that same paradigm. And, and this is when some of this is looking back with my adult lenses now is there were certain again within our ward and especially within the state, our ward was quite privileged. It was a well to do area of New Jersey. But within the stake there's incredible disparity. There's illegal immigrants, newly immigrants, children of new immigrants, a little bit of racial diversity. But those members and although that they were beloved and incorporated members within the ward itself. I'll call him Brother V. There was one. Brother V was a recent immigrant and he was the most most loving man you've ever met in your. He had a prayer book and he prayed.

JoCee Porter [01:05:16] Everyone's name was in the prayer book and he'd pray for you.

Rylee Porter [01:05:19] And, and I even remember as like a young Mormon we had a lot of converts and new converts and so I'd watch them get up and bear their testimony. And they had different language and different mannerisms and cadence because they hadn't quite learned the jargon yet. The repeated this is what. And so there were members who got up and talked about their experiences before they found the church. And it was kind of rough and raw, riddled with addiction. These really raw testimony meetings where you're like, wow, that was a real story. But it was not this rinse, cycle, repeat, copy and paste jargon that you hear from everyone else. It was these truly intimate experiences. But Brother V, for example, who more than. Was more than equipped to maybe be a leader or a bishop, these were not the people who were called to leadership. I mean, the bishop of my youth is now the CIO of Ensign Peak. It was. And same thing with the stakes that were kind of like the inner city stakes. It was people from our prestigious. Well, to do, more often than not white Utah Mormons that were kind of transported, almost kind of like, I think it's a mission set up a little bit where they were like, mission stakes. And so these well to do Utah Mormons were always the stake president, the stake leadership. The leadership was always very

John Dehlin [01:06:47] right.

Rylee Porter [01:06:47] I mean, they had homogenous. It was a certain type of person, and it was never the immigrants or the cultural diversity who were involved in the leadership of the church. And I didn't really recognize that until later. And looking back, I recognized how the convert's unique language started to dissipate over time. And people conform because of the social pressures.

JoCee Porter [01:07:10] Oh, I was just gonna say, like, because they had branches. It's not like our ward. We had the ward.

Rylee Porter [01:07:14] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:07:15] Which was cool because we had the ward and everyone else had branches around us, and they were in the poor areas. I had the branches because they didn't have enough people to fill the. The ward. And like, our dad was called to be, like, a high priest in the branch. Right. And like, our friends were called to be the bishop in the branch. So even though they didn't live within that branch and weren't within the boundaries of it, they were called to serve in those leadership positions. And they never, ever called, like, local people. I'm sure they did. I shouldn't say never, but never.

Rylee Porter [01:07:42] Not that I remember, at least.

JoCee Porter [01:07:44] I can't recall a time that they called a local person a leader or someone that wasn't white to lead.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:49] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:07:49] And obviously. And this is, you know, of course not women as well. It goes without saying. No women in leadership.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] Yeah, yeah. So what I'm hearing is you kind of get the best of many worlds. You get the Mormon tight knit community, the support, the friends, the educated affluent leaders that make a really good close tight knit community. But you also get a sense of being in a bigger world culture. You get exposure to different cultures, you gain a level of knowledge and respect about other cultures while still maintaining both your community and a sense of elitism. It, it's a different experience than the Utah Mormon experience where you really like, I know so many Utah and Idaho Mormons that never spoke to a black person before they graduated from high school. Maybe rarely ever saw a black person just because it's so white and so homogenous.

Rylee Porter [01:08:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:50] So it's, it's that, that there's a beauty of, of, of exposure there where the religion is important, but you get a broader world perspective. But then also the financial disparity where you're in this elite wealthy ward and then you, you still have branches surrounding you, but they're all lower ses, lower socioeconomic. And then this, this wealthy ward serves as the leadership supply to all these impoverished surrounding LDS branches.

Rylee Porter [01:09:24] Right, exactly right.

Observations on Saviorism and Mormon Culture Back East

JoCee Porter [01:09:25] And I do want to say something like I guess this is kind of reflecting as an adult now too is like. And I didn't see it when I was a kid and why didn't I see it? Because there's so much like, like benevolent, benevolent, like racism, classism. So like Brother V, who we talk about like was, was a big figure in my life because we would talk about him all the time. Brother V. He's so, so worthy and deserves so much. And, and he wasn't, he was an illegal immigrant.

Rylee Porter [01:09:48] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:09:48] But we love him anyway. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:09:50] And he is so poor.

JoCee Porter [01:09:51] He eats chicken.

Rylee Porter [01:09:52] He ate the boils, the bones of the chicken.

JoCee Porter [01:09:55] I remember this, you know, and he slepts on like a. Because he can't sleep on the floor because there's cockroaches. So we, we slept on a board of wood. Right. And we would help out Brother V so much. Right. As much as we can. But we never gave him an opportunity to lead and that's probably what he needed. So it's like benevolence, benevolent saviorism. A little bit saviorism.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:11] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:10:12] And, and which we speak so highly of them that you just don't see

Rylee Porter [01:10:15] it, you know, as a kid it's almost like, like how you like fetishize certain like experiences and it's a word, it has different computations, but basically holding it to like a, a pedestal a little bit. And in ways not understanding how Infantilizing, that is.

JoCee Porter [01:10:32] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] Yeah. It's like you're all living with this knowledge that you're super wealthy and educated and powerful, but you're also Christians and you also are supposed to care about the poor. And so you have to maybe identify and pick certain people where you feel like, well, see, we have exposure to all sorts of people. We're diverse and we help out the poor. But it's, but it's almost. Yeah. Infantilization or pedestalizing or whatever. It's not full integration. It's not.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:03] That's right.

Rylee Porter [01:11:05] Very white savior. Very white savior. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:08] It's not a Zionic. We're all living together in law of consecration kind of stuff. It's at an arm's length maybe. And then don't let them keep them in their own branches and definitely don't let them really lead serve.

Rylee Porter [01:11:20] Yeah, absolutely.

JoCee Porter [01:11:21] But I do want to give credit where credit is due. Like, I do appreciate the upbringing that I had in New Jersey where it's like we had. We were surrounded by people that were not in America legally and, and they were accepting of them.

Rylee Porter [01:11:34] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:11:34] It's not like you were like schnooty about it, you know, like, and you turned an obvious blind eye. We knew if they needed help cleaning houses because they can't have a job, we would like, you know, be that. Be those providers. And I really admire that about those people that like there's not this like hate of immigrants, that there's like a support of people because we're all children of God and we're all doing the best we can. And so they do deserve a little bit credit. White saviorism for sure. But they were helping a lot of people as well.

Rylee Porter [01:12:02] Yeah, yeah. But then again, I mean the people who were helping and were deserving of your help were part of the in group.

JoCee Porter [01:12:09] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:12:10] That was like a pre qualified condition to the help that we could give. But there did seem to be like a over emphasis on charitable work and charitable contributions. And that was also a big part of like my youth experiences. Like we did charitable work more. That's more often what I remember than anything else, you know, and. And that also I feel like was a different parallel to Utah because I came to Utah and I was like, what are we. We're doing another. It seemed like the most superficial activities for. Yeah. So credit where credit is due. There was a lot of charity, but there was an undertone of, of elitism in, in a white savior complex a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] Got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:57] I have a question for you with Regard to kind of living back east and how defining your church experience felt, how much space it kind of took up in your life. Because I think there's some variability here sometimes with experiences living back east. As someone who grew up back east, I felt like it diluted my church experience a bit because all of my friends weren't Mormon, my relatives weren't Mormon as a convert. And so it allowed for, I think an identity to emerge that was a little bit more multifaceted, less one dimensional. Right. How would you guys talk about that? Was the church your world? Did it feel pretty defining to your family and in your lives? Can you tell me a little bit in, you know, individually?

Rylee Porter [01:13:48] Yeah, I mean it definitely felt integral to like my identity. But because you're surrounded by different religions all the time, you're forced to identify with how Mormonism fits into like world religions. And so to me that was like really important is it wasn't just like a Mormon narrative starting with Joseph. It was like zooming out a little bit and recognizing within a historical world context where my religion of Christianity compares to my friends who are Protestant, Presbyterian, Catholic, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, you know, and then also where does it fit within the, you know, big three, right. The Judeo Christian tradition. Also what is, how does Islam work into it? Like you're forced to at a very young age understand that you're a facet of a religious tradition and you look for com and you can't help but see like commonalities and universals within all of it. So yeah, I think that was like a big part of understanding how your religion and how defining that was to you as a part of like your identity, understanding where that fell into a world context and a historical context, in a community context. Got it, got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:09] So I'm hearing kind of like you have context, many paths, here's my path, but there are all these other paths. But still allowing for that path to feel important to you and vital, but it's within a context of many.

Rylee Porter [01:15:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:25] Is that right?

Rylee Porter [01:15:25] And looking back now, I can see why like the One Truth church never really sat well with me, even though I, I heard that repeated and said. But I mean, when you're around people of other faiths who are just as devout in their faith tradition as you are, you cannot comfortably say, well, this is the one true church of this is the one church to rule them all. Like, it feels very Lord of the Rings. It feels superficial. Cuz I went to Passovers, I went to I out with people who were, who believed just as vehemently, just as passionately that theirs was the true church. That pretty quickly, at a young age, there was a cognitive dissonance of, like, well, we can't all be the one true church.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:09] That's right. And where also I think you can actually witness it being lived as beautifully.

Rylee Porter [01:16:15] Yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:16] I think there's something very confronting about that, too. Yeah. How would you talk about it?

JoCee Porter [01:16:22] I mean, I was a lot younger, so it was still like my entire world.

Rylee Porter [01:16:25] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:16:25] Was the church. Right. Because, like, we had neighborhood friends. Right. But the friends that we actually hung out with was. Was those two families that I talked about that, like, became our family. And those were the cousins. Right. And so we went to their house every single day and the summer, went to the pool with them every single day. And they were Mormon. Right. And so my world was still very, very, very Mormon up until leaving New Jersey. But, like, there was a lot of ability to see things more clearly, like growing up with other religions and. And appreciating other religions and having, like, true respect for them in a lot of ways, but also still thinking that I was part of the one true church.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:00] Yeah, that's right.

JoCee Porter [01:17:01] Yeah. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:17:02] Yeah, right.

JoCee Porter [01:17:03] But it was very involved in my life at that point. Still was like, the whole world still at that point.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:08] It.

Rylee Porter [01:17:09] It might have been arrogant, but it wasn't ignorant.

JoCee Porter [01:17:11] Right, right.

Rylee Porter [01:17:14] And. And I. And so as we get to the point where. So my father. And to come back to my dad during kind of all of these years, at one point, he. So if. If anyone ever takes the time to look into the Koch brothers, they have a nefarious history of suing their former employees to oblivion because they can. Because they have endless wealth and opportunity to do so. So at some point in my dad's career, him and his team were sued by the Koch brothers personally. Personally. And that was a defining memory in our, like, family existence because it was incredibly stressful. I mean, my dad still talks it when he opens up about it, and when he talks about that, it was an incredibly traumatic experience in our lives. So the Koch brothers, who sued him and his team over intellectual property once they decided that they wanted to leave the organization, it was kind of like a penalizing thing because they felt like they weren't treated fairly within the organization. I mean, everyone is entitled to that opinion. And I have no doubt that they were not treated with well, nor do I think that, quite frankly, they got a big enough percent of, like, this. I mean, they just made them a ton of money, and I think that when they started asking for a little bit more of compensation for the crazy amounts of money that they were making this crazy wealthy organization to begin with, there was a penalization that happened there. So my father went through a lawsuit for about five years.

JoCee Porter [01:19:00] And, like, this lawsuit has, like, a huge impact in, like, our childhood. Even though, like, I don't necessarily remember going to court or anything like that, but, like, always knowing that he was stressed or, like, this fear or feeling like just that someone would go out of your way to hurt you so much. Like, it's. It's kind of unfathomable. Right. Like, I think, like, my dad made a pretty good fortune at that point, or like a small fortune, was doing well for his family and went down to nothing. Right. And was back to that. Stress was back to that, like, in that kind of. Has carried with.

Rylee Porter [01:19:28] Yeah. Financially devastated our family. Financially devastated our family.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:34] Okay, and what ages were you during this time? Five years. What span are we talking?

Rylee Porter [01:19:39] This is so funny, because I think in terms of states, I remember this in Texas. It started in Texas. So that would have been 1997. Jackson was born in 1997.

JoCee Porter [01:19:52] Eight.

Rylee Porter [01:19:53] Yeah. So I think it would have started around 1999. 1998. Yeah. 1990. Yeah. 1998 and 1999. So either 1998 or 1999, but for us, it. For me, at least I remember it started. And the one defining memory I have of this experience, and there was, like, a certain amount of, like, paranoia that accompanied our family because, like, we were being followed. We were being. And so I remember that there were these two men who, in my young mind, looked like they came from Men in Black. Like, they had, like, the, like, black suits and, like, the black shades. And my mom, like, answered the door, and she's shaking. Remember, she has a massive amount of, like, social anxiety. And my dad was like, I'm not here, Roxanne. I'm not here. And, like, went to the back because he, you know, wasn't going to speak to these people without his lawyer present, which I've had to piece together as, like, an adult. Looking back, all I remember is these men in black men come to the door, like, knock forcefully on the door. And my mom answers the door, and it's like, we're here to see Jeff. And she's like, he's not home. He's not home. Well, I was raised in, like, you know, conservative, traditional. And I. I mean, she's lucky I didn't spill the beans that, like, Riley's loudmouth wasn't, like, mom, we're not supposed to lie. What do you mean, dad just hauled out the back door? What do you mean, dad's not home? I just remember sitting there being like. Like, I've never seen my mom lie before. Like, that was like a. I don't know, kind of like a interesting memory for me or whatever. But I just remember my parents were behaving in ways that I've never seen them behave before. Things fundamentally changed, even though I wasn't sure exactly what was going on. I think I was 8 or 9 when this happened. Okay, so there was a falling out and I think a heartbreak for my dad. And at that point, Hess Corp, which again, was another, like, New York institution, came, started helping with some of the litigation, hired my dad, and brought us back out to New Jersey. So that was the next stint of New Jersey experience. But I think that broke my dad's heart forever. I think he became a little bit disenchanted with the dog eat dog world of Wall Street. I think that he did everything in a. It didn't matter that he did everything in, like an ethical or upright way. He was still perceived as. He was still villainized by people he used to work with. I think it fundamentally broke his heart. And so he worked for Hess for as long as he did. But I think that's why the opportunity to work with at Ensign Peak was so appealing when that opportunity came so key.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:25] That is so key.

Rylee Porter [01:22:26] So that's like, why I want to bring that up, because I think that was like an important part of why he decided to work for Ensign Peak.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] And there's the. It sounds like there's the disillusionment, but also if he's broke, that's also a factor.

Rylee Porter [01:22:41] Well, I mean, he was making good money at Hess. Like, when Hess took him on, they started alleviating those lawyer and litigation fees, which also speaks to, I think, his character that, you know, a corporation would go out of their way to, like, a well to do corporation would go out of their way to bring him on board, employ him, make sure that he was well paid. But I just think that that experience with the Koch brothers broke his heart. And he was less personally invested, but he was able to build back a small fortune again. Right? You know, I don't know. It depends on who you ask. You know, like, my mom thinks that we would have had a golden parachute for forever had the lawsuit never happened. And I'm sure there's an element of

JoCee Porter [01:23:24] truth to that, but so it is cool that it was like rags to Riches went back to rags and came back to, like, you know, we are very well off, you know, and so I think that's really cool that he was able to do it not once, but twice.

Rylee Porter [01:23:35] Twice.

JoCee Porter [01:23:36] Because he did not want to be poor.

Rylee Porter [01:23:37] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:23:38] And he wanted to make sure his kids were not poor.

Rylee Porter [01:23:40] Yeah. Rebuilt himself twice.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:42] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:23:43] So.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:44] Yeah.

The Family's Move to Utah and Culture Shock

JoCee Porter [01:23:45] Should we go to Utah?

Rylee Porter [01:23:45] Yeah. I was going to say so right around 2007. And again, I think, remember the promise from my father to my mother was just, hang. Hang tight, kid. Hang with me. At some point, we will get you back home. Because that was always home. They always refer to Utah's home. Summer vacations. We'd come back.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:04] We.

Rylee Porter [01:24:04] I mean, we never went anywhere else. And that's kind of a beef Josie and I have today is we absolutely could have had the opportunity to travel the world. We were around, you know, peers who, like, went to Sicily or went to the Bahamas or went to, you know, it's like, where do you. You spend summer vacation? We went to Utah Again. Again, we went back to Utah. It's all we ever do. Because that was home for Roxanne. She wanted to be back home. So there came a point where I think my dad felt okay. And it was. And he actually didn't move to Utah for Ensign Peak. It was just. They prayed. They had a personal revelation. It was. It was time. It reminds me of, like, Lion King. It is time. And they moved. Moved back to Utah. And within four months of us living in Utah, Ensign Peak approached my dad. I was at the point where.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:57] Oh.

John Dehlin [01:24:57] So they. They chose to leave New Jersey and back east to move to Utah.

JoCee Porter [01:25:03] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:03] Because they just wanted to live in Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:25:06] It was their personal revelation.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] Pete came after.

JoCee Porter [01:25:09] And the move to Utah is, like, was a big deal, right? Because, like. Like they were making good money, you know, like, they just sold their house. They moved to Utah. Didn't even have a house. Right. It was still being built at the time. My dad didn't have a job. Just came to Utah off of, like, a revelation or a desire to be home or like, whatever you want to call it.

Rylee Porter [01:25:25] I thought it was cool.

JoCee Porter [01:25:26] I thought we were like, you know, Lehi's family. You know, you're obviously Laban and Lemuel. I was obviously Nephi. My brother was Sam, and my dad was Lehi. Going on this, like, trek.

Rylee Porter [01:25:37] Came back to dream.

JoCee Porter [01:25:38] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:25:38] Back to the promised land.

JoCee Porter [01:25:39] I love.

Rylee Porter [01:25:41] I really love that. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:25:44] And so, yeah, there wasn't. There wasn't a plan. When they came back to Utah, the Plan was to come home.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:48] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:25:49] And there wasn't a job lined up

John Dehlin [01:25:50] or anything, but maybe there's a part in your outline where you talk about all the people that ended up in Ensign Peak.

Rylee Porter [01:25:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] That you knew back in New York. Is it worth even listing those people? Because.

Rylee Porter [01:26:04] But we have numbers. Yeah, but.

JoCee Porter [01:26:06] No, that's a good point. That's a very, very good point. My dad was the first. Right. So, like.

Rylee Porter [01:26:11] Well, that's not true. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:26:13] So the. The guy that came out that starred Enzyme Peak. Right. And you can look up his name if you want. He was obviously the first. And the first portion they pulled.

Rylee Porter [01:26:21] Comfortable naming we can name. Roger Clark was from Short Hills Ward came and, like, set up the fund. The way that we know it today, he's the basement big guy.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] So you knew Roger. We knew Roger, New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [01:26:34] We knew David Nielsen intimately. I mean, every. The cio, Like I said, the current CIO of Ensign Peak was my bishop growing up. But so.

JoCee Porter [01:26:44] So. So Roger Clark came and started Ensign Peak.

Rylee Porter [01:26:47] And underneath Hinkley. Right. It was Hinckley. Put together the idea for the fund. 1997. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:26:55] So then my dad was looking for a job in 2007, and at this point, Ensign Peak was still very, very, very small. Very small. And so my dad was the first from these. Wall Street. And then after my dad came, that's when they started pulling, you know, a lot of people. A lot of people from the Short Hills. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:27:12] My dad, I'm pretty sure, had a very influential role in bringing David Nielsen into Enzyme People. My dad saw. Or. Sorry, David saw my dad as a mentor. Because my dad is. I want to take a second to talk about this. My dad is absolutely. I think, because he didn't have mentors growing up, that for men, you know, and unfortunately, it skews young men, but for men, he goes out of his way to provide opportunity at any place that he can. His favorite callings were always some sort of leadership within the young men, because he loves still, even now, he provides all of these people that we know and sons of friends and friends of friends to even Josie's experience will speak more into positions that my dad has been able to put people in.

JoCee Porter [01:28:01] And so he had a lot of say, and not just Dave, but a lot of people from the show, including the current cio. I think my dad was there first

Rylee Porter [01:28:08] and then encouraged him to come up, and then he came later. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:11] And I'm not trying to insinuate that there's something unethical about this, but it's worth noting because money and power is the currency in this world.

Rylee Porter [01:28:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:23] Like when I joined Bain and Company, which was Mitt Romney's management consulting firm that came out of Boston.

Rylee Porter [01:28:29] Oh, I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:28:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] They're like, so Mitt Romney goes out back east in the 70s or whatever. He starts Bain, which was like a competitor, McKinsey. And then he starts, obviously probably recruiting Mormons at some point. But by the time I'm graduating from BYU and i93, Bain Company, which. Which again, was one of the top five companies to work for in the world, they would recruit out of byu. And so when I went to Bain Dallas, there was a cluster of BYU grads. It was like Bain Dallas would hire from Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, MIT and byu.

Rylee Porter [01:29:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] And so there would be all these white collar professionals at Bain Dallas, and I would have four or five BYU grads there to be my little micro posse, you know, in this really elite group. And so it sounds so very much the same. Tell me about, like this New Jersey experience. But then Ensign Peak opens up and then Roger Clark starts who you all knew. But then your dad goes. And then they all start recruiting from that same ward.

Rylee Porter [01:29:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:34] Just this whole Mormon white collar cultural elite.

Rylee Porter [01:29:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:39] Subcultures.

Rylee Porter [01:29:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:41] It just feels very familiar to me and it's curious to hear that that's how Inside Peak grew.

Rylee Porter [01:29:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:47] Out of that. A similar sort of Mormon elite white collar subculture.

Rylee Porter [01:29:51] Right. Who had the right credentials for the job. Right. I mean, we're. Oh, yeah. I mean, not trying to be dismissive. Right, exactly. But we're very impressive in their field.

JoCee Porter [01:30:01] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:30:02] In the world.

JoCee Porter [01:30:03] The best investors. You go to Wall Street.

Rylee Porter [01:30:05] You go to Street Wall. Wall Street. And so. Yeah. And. And nepotism occurs in, like, every organization. But I just think that there does need to be, like, an elevated sense of awareness that who, you know, brings a lot of privileges. And if you don't have the privileges to know the right sort of people, those doors aren't open to you.

JoCee Porter [01:30:23] Right, yeah, right.

Rylee Porter [01:30:25] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:30:26] Well, yeah. And you hear about, like, in Jewish culture, this network, I mean, and this is, you know, like in Hollywood or in Wall street or wherever that Jews kind of stuck together, supported each other, and helped each other become financially successful. And there's probably some parallel in Mormonism and in Irish culture and in probably all the cultures where a religious, ethnic subculture looked after each other and helped it become financially prominent and successful.

Rylee Porter [01:30:57] Well, and why I say that's such an apt comparison is because that was like an exception. Explicit comparison that I, I mean my dad would talk about us in comparison to like the Jewish experience all of the time.

John Dehlin [01:31:09] Okay.

Rylee Porter [01:31:10] Yeah, I mean it was, it was very explicit that like, and, and there was almost like a kindredship. Right. Because if you understand Mormon theology, you think that you're like a grafted in part of the tribe of Israel. So like, you know, you're kind of looking at like your Jewish friends. Like I, you know, I'm, I'm part of the tribe too. Which if I think about saying now as like an adult, it's like how assumptive and insulting and. But there was a part, there absolutely was an element of like we felt, at least I know that I did like an elevated kindredship to the Jews specifically, which is really quite interesting because we were surrounded by other Christians. But I felt like I had more in common with my Jewish friends and that I heard people talk about our similarities between like the tribalism and the lived experience and the, and that you're like a high achiever and. Yeah. Everything else that is mirrored in a lot of ways. There was a lot of explicit parallels driven between ourself and the Jewish community. So that's why I say it's an apt comparison because it was like explicitly stated. It wasn't even kind of like an implicit thing. It was kind of like well known.

JoCee Porter [01:32:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:19] Interesting. Yeah. And that's how I think all subcultures advance. I mean, 150 years ago we're like this frontier, bearded, weird, culty, polygamous group.

JoCee Porter [01:32:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] Fast forward 150 years. One of ours is the Senate Majority Leader of the United States Senate and another is the Republican nominee for president. How does a cult, and I say that in a loving way, how does a small New York based 19th century cult weird, weird echelons of power in the most powerful countries, country in the world. It's partly through these white collar, educational, financial, elite enclaves that develop and then ascend into money and power and then become influential in it. And again, Berkeley, California, Cambridge, Massachusetts, Potomac, Maryland, whatever. New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [01:33:13] Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Short Hills, New Jersey.

John Dehlin [01:33:16] Short Hills, New Jersey. That's how it happens.

Rylee Porter [01:33:18] Whatever the Short Hills means. I mean, I think of like the Iroquois.

JoCee Porter [01:33:22] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:33:22] Where we're looking at burial mounds somewhere. Where were these? They weren't quite mountains, they were short hills. Yeah, right, right, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:29] Anyway, it's interesting.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:30] So if we were going to connect back to the Utah move though for both of you, should we explore maybe what that shift, what that move meant for each of you?

Rylee Porter [01:33:41] Yeah. I mean, and I was telling Josie this kind of just the other day. I was so excited to move to Utah. And again, like, I would have started ninth grade out here, and. And again, I grew up moving all of the time. So you think that this. And my last stretch in Utah or. Sorry, my last stretch in New Jersey was, like, the longest stretch. It was third to eighth grade. Those five years was my longest uninterrupted school experience. So you think I would be like, devastated to, like, find, you know, to leave the, like, one unstable school environment that I've ever known in my entire life. But even as a Mormon, and before I even got into the true high school experience, I recognized how, like, I was becoming more and more isolated and secluded from my peer group. Like, my girlfriends at the time started barely experimenting with, like, drinking. You know, I wore tank tops. And then this is, like, another thing that I think is kind of interesting where like. Like, gender roles and. What is it called? Covering up? Modesty. See, I don't even know the word for it. Modesty was not, like, beaten into my existence as a young woman in New Jersey because, like, I wore tank tops not to church, but, like, at school, so that I was, like, the same as my friends. I wore bikinis because that's what my friends were wearing, you know. But I started to understand where, like, I looked at the Mormon youth who were older than me, and, like, they were taking each other to each other's proms. It's not like, you know, and their dresses looked very different than, like, their peers, you know, it. They had, like, the sleeves. And I don't think that they were getting asked, you know, from their own peer group. So they were, like, taking each other to each other's, because they weren't all going to the same school. I mean, I was the only Mormon in my school for a long time. And then there were a couple of others, a handful of others, but I. I recognized that I was becoming more and more excluded. And as my friends, like, became experimental in things like drinking, typical teenager stuff that I wouldn't be able to participate in. And I recognized that there was going to be, like, a bigger chasm that would have been harder and harder to maintain. I would have had to wake up for early morning seminary, everything else. So I was so excited to move to Utah. And I think that there was an aspect. I mean, my dad was an mba, BYU grad. I'm sure that it was like, you know, well, they're getting to the age where we're Going to start preparing them for college and maybe we can send them to BYU and have the in state tuition as opposed to the out of state tuition. You know, I think, especially for me, I think my parents were kind of priming me to go to byu. I was sent to BYU EFY every summer, you know, so I was very much looking forward to being part of the fold and, and being where family was.

JoCee Porter [01:36:28] Right. Like, we never really saw our cousins. So it was exciting to be around our cousins for the first time and get to know them because they grew up kind of without us in a lot of ways because we were the only family not in Utah.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:39] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:36:39] Right. So my dad was the only one who left.

JoCee Porter [01:36:41] Right. And like a few of these left to like Montana and like Colorado or

Rylee Porter [01:36:45] Arizona, but like somewhere still in the Mormon corridor.

JoCee Porter [01:36:48] Yeah. And then on my mom's side, they were all from Utah too, so we were the only people back east for sure.

Rylee Porter [01:36:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] And Margi, I don't know if you relate to this a little bit, but we went out and worked in Dallas and Chicago and Seattle. And then at some point we're just like, we're done. Let's return home. I know Utah was at home, and for me, I was raised in Texas, but somehow Utah became home. Because, Mark, in your case, your parents moved to Utah while we were out. And for me, my dad was raised in Salt Lake and my mom was raised in Cache Valley, Franklin, Idaho area. So I'm only making the connection to describe this idea of a Mormon diaspora, which is where in like 1940s or 50s or 60s, 60s, we become mainstream. We spread out to take over. Not take over, but to become influential in national industry and politics and. And every education spheres of power. Yeah. But then there's this sense of. Of returning home, almost like Zionism, of returning home to the birthplace of all of us, even though Marty's a convert, but for me, my dad's birthplace. Returning home to Zion.

Rylee Porter [01:37:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] To build up the stakes of Zion in Utah, which is what you guys did.

Rylee Porter [01:38:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] Does that make sense?

Rylee Porter [01:38:01] 100% articulated it much better than I could have, but absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] I'm just trying to draw some connections, you know. Anyway, okay, so what's it like for these girls? Raced in, white collar elite, Eastern Mormonism, coming to freaking Davis county or wherever it was.

JoCee Porter [01:38:20] I will say that the education, that's probably the biggest disparity that I saw.

Rylee Porter [01:38:25] We had educational privilege, we had great

JoCee Porter [01:38:27] education back in New Jersey. And I think, like, I'm pretty sure like a bajillion dollars of their tax go to the public schools. It's a high, high percentage of income tax go to schools. So we went to the public schools and had a great education. And I'd say we were both two years ahead when we moved to Utah, if, if that.

Rylee Porter [01:38:43] So this is where I really want to shout out that call to the episode of loving and leaving Mormonism with again, you know, Lizzie Bean, because she talks about, again, she was an upstate New York, you know, Mormon gal coming to. And the term culture shock is an understatement because you have this idea of what it is to be Mormon, of what Mormonism means in the world. And then you come here and you experience Mormonism and it's. To me, that was like the beginning of a heartbreak almost. I mean, I felt so disappointed. And that's where like the cracks in the facade started to form for me because I used to tease, I said the church felt more true in New Jersey. But I mean, especially when Lizzie talks about being like a fast talking east coaster. I mean, I felt so immediately judged and misunderstood. And again, I came from like a world of very inclusive Mormons and very tolerant Mormons. And then I moved to, we moved to North Ogden. My parents still have a beautiful home that they built in, in North Ogden. And I just remember like coming into the ward and feeling like an outsider and feeling biased against for nothing that I knew. I mean, we just, we just moved into the ward. This is also something where I think is really interesting about Lizzie's experience versus my own. She talks about recognizing that she had like a physique that did that. She felt like stood out and didn't fit in, you know, because everyone in Utah is kind of tall and good teeth and blonde and white and almost like Scandinavian looking, you know. And so she felt even physically marked as like an outsider where I, I fit the bill, right? Like, I'm, I'm as Mormon looking as it is and I was still marked as an outsider. There were a lot of like, rumors that were spread about me and, and looking back as, as an adult now, it's, it's really interesting. So apparently and that my dad is the one who told me this story. How the story got shows is we move into the ward. I know that the young men like me. I know that the young men are, you know, friendly to say the least. But the, the girls wanted nothing to do with me. There was a very cliquish mentality, which again was heartbreaking because I've always known Mormons as these tolerant, welcoming, Missionary mindsetted people. And I was like, why are these girls being so exclusive and mean to me and saying bad things about they don't even know me or what do they, you know, think they know about me? And apparently the bishop at the time, who was like a father of someone who was also in my grade, so he, he knew my peer group. He knew my, you know. Yeah, he knew my peer group. The bishop came and, and you know, kind of welcomed us into the ward and him and my dad are standing on like the front porch looking at the mountain range and it's like, you know, how are you moving in? And of course my dad's like, oh, you know, we're okay. It's a little bit of an adjustment, but, you know, it's, it's. We're happy to be here, you know. And apparently my dad tells the story, like the bishop's kind of like, you know, kick in the dust and is kind of looking around and he's like, I worry about Riley. How is Riley doing? And then my dad's like, well, I think she's doing okay. You know, I think she's struggling a little bit. And how my dad tells the story is his words were, I think Riley really disrupted the apple cart, really like tilted the status quo. Because I was, I don't know, I'm looking back now, I think I was like intimidating. I think that I talked really fast. I think I talked like a New Yorker. I think I had a amount of educational privilege that I wasn't even aware of. But I kind of, you know, was like, man, what's wrong with these guys? And I think I was just intimidating on all fronts that I was pretty quickly excluded from any sort of the, this social camaraderie that I knew that I had in New Jersey.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] And just to be clear again, for those who have never been Mormon or have never lived in Utah, last time I checked, Utah spent less money per capita on students than any other state in the United States, including like Mississippi and Alabama. Not to diss on the south and Arkansas. Like, yeah, it's. And it's just a combination of like, just not vaccinated. Valuing education as much.

Rylee Porter [01:43:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:18] Plus just having so many kids and maybe not having, I don't know, as much financial wealth historically.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:43:24] But Utah historically deeply under invests in education. And again, these elite white collar city cities outside of the, outside of Utah are going to over invest in education because it's so important. So that would be a real dynamic you would be experiencing along with not Having lived in these areas for 10 or 15 years, like, our kids had trouble joining little cliques and being included socially in their ward in Logan, Utah. Again, because all these kids had been born and all grew up together in this ward where we come in as transplants. So there are big cultural differences, you know, where you don't fit in, massive cultural disparities.

JoCee Porter [01:44:09] And I think all of us got bullied. Like, I don't think e. And all three of us were very much bullied that year in a lot of ways by the members. Right. It's not like we were bullied, like, within the church group. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:44:20] Like, my younger brother injury.

JoCee Porter [01:44:23] Right. Like, my younger brother is hit over the back with a baseball bat by another boy in the ward that year.

Rylee Porter [01:44:28] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:44:29] Like, it's like, this is what city again?

Rylee Porter [01:44:30] North Ogden.

John Dehlin [01:44:31] North Ogden.

Rylee Porter [01:44:32] Which.

JoCee Porter [01:44:32] North Ogden is a very rich, well to do city too. You know, like, it's not like we went.

Rylee Porter [01:44:36] It's how they distinguish themselves from Ogden. For those who, like, know the Wasatch front, you know, like, Ogden's kind of like the urban area, but North Ogden.

JoCee Porter [01:44:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Well, even Ogden, I think, was formed around the railroad and very industrial outside the state, including people of color were brought in to help with the railroad and stayed. And so there would be an urban Ogden that would be not as Mormon and more ethnically diverse. And then you would have the elite. More elite. More educated in, from a Utah relative perspective than North Ogden. Right. Which was more educated.

Rylee Porter [01:45:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] More white.

Rylee Porter [01:45:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:14] More Mormon.

Rylee Porter [01:45:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:15] Less diverse.

Rylee Porter [01:45:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:45:16] So you still get the socioeconomic and cultural stratification, even when you relocate from New Jersey to Ogden.

Rylee Porter [01:45:25] Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's interesting you say that because, like, I mean, rich whites don't

John Dehlin [01:45:30] want to hang around people of color with less money. Right?

Rylee Porter [01:45:35] Yeah. Certain rich whites, for sure. Because it's interesting you say that because they felt more like my people, like, when. And like I said, it was like insult to injury when, like, your own members were the ones who beat your brother with a baseball bat. And then, you know, like, my dad went to confront that family. And, like, there wasn't like a. Which is a lot. My parents were very laissez faire. They were not like, fight battles for their kids. So for him to have gotten involved, like, says something in and of itself. And there was like a weird tension within the ward after that happened, when someone was obviously clearly in the wrong because my brother was beat. Like, it was weird. Yes, absolutely.

Conformity, Sameness, and Feeling Like an Outsider in Utah

Margi Dehlin [01:46:19] I was gonna just also note that this idea of conformity and sameness Right. And being so easily identified as other.

Rylee Porter [01:46:31] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:32] Or a threat. That is something that I feel like came to us as when we moved to Utah as well. And I'm hearing it kind of in your story because of how, you know, densely populated, like the majority is, is Mormon. And. And so it takes on its own form I think here, and it just amps up. I feel like that conformity and that sameness in a way that I did not experience back east at all. But I'm really hearing it in your story and we experienced a bit in our story as well.

Rylee Porter [01:47:07] Yeah, well, and I want to speak to the cultural conformity a little bit. And then I know, you know, kind of this is where Josie, you know, has like more, more memories. But that's, that was the first time. And when I say like culture shock, I mean that, because this was my first time experiencing cultural Mormonism that was like very on like the facade. Like you were able to like police and monitor your neighbors because everyone was doing the same steps and saying the same things and looking the same and interacting the same. So I saw a lot of these people who were going through the motions, the outward cultural motions that to me felt really superficial. And I'm thinking in my mind isn't this like how Jesus, you know, reprimanded the Pharisees by being this whitewashed sepulcher? But there's also like rot on the inside. That's how like I. And this is again where kind of sort of my like religious elitism will kind of show face. But I felt like I was a Mormon who knew my, my stuff. I read the Book of Mormon. I, you know, I, I knew scripture. I could recant scripture. I was in scripture mastery with the best of them because you have to know your religion when you're living outside of Utah. And then when I got around these kids that I felt like, you know, like my teenage bad, you know, mindset would be like they were kind of dumber. They were like these dumb hit kids. But like obviously I now know that there was like a scent of like educational privilege that I had experience to. But it's like these kids don't even. It's not their fault. It's not their fault. It's so funny that you say, you know, the Utah under invest in there because you think as families being such an instrumental part of the community and having so many kids that you would overinvest in your kids education.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:52] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:48:52] So it's almost ironic paradox that it's not right.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] You're reminding Me, because I grew up in Texas in like a Houston suburbs.

Rylee Porter [01:49:02] We were in Houston. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:04] Okay, cool.

Rylee Porter [01:49:05] Well, yeah, Galvanston.

John Dehlin [01:49:07] Okay. Yeah, I used to, I took Renee Zeller on the day to Galveston.

Rylee Porter [01:49:11] Oh, no way.

John Dehlin [01:49:12] But, but, but I remember this idea that Utah Mormons weren't actually doing Mormonism in a committed way, that growing up, first of all, outside of Utah was called the Mission field.

Rylee Porter [01:49:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:49:29] So Utah was kind of Zion from a Mormon perspective. And then anyone who grew up outside of Utah grew up in, quote, the mission field. But for those of us who grew up outside of Utah, we always had the sense that the kids in Utah, the Mormon kids in Utah partied, they didn't take the church seriously, that they goofed off, that they were swimming in Mormonism. And so they didn't really value or choose it or appreciate it. Whereas those of us who, who grew up, quote, in the mission field, where like all of our high school friends wanted to party and we had to be strong and choose the church and be committed to it to stay Mormon, that we were actually the legitimate, committed, hardcore Mormons, whereas the Utah Mormons were soft and just doing it culturally. Right. Is that right?

Rylee Porter [01:50:16] 100%, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:19] And then also, like you mentioned, people would commute two hours to church in New Jersey. How weird is it that when you move to Utah, it's like three streets are your ward. Right. It's like the street you're on and then the people in back of you and the people in front of you and that's your entire ward and there's like a chapel every three blocks. It's spoon fed, like a totally different mindset right now.

Rylee Porter [01:50:44] Yeah, well, it's. You love what you sacrifice for.

JoCee Porter [01:50:46] Right. And you don't have to sacrifice.

Rylee Porter [01:50:47] And if you don't have to sacrifice for it, what's the point of being devoted? I like that was I started kind of referring to, you know, even as like my teenage experience. And in high school I was like, these are unchristian Mormons is kind of, you know what I said? But yeah, you love what you sacrifice for. And I don't think you have to sacrifice for the Mormon experience when you're living here in Utah and it's spoon fed to you. And so of course it's going to make you lazy.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:14] And in a metaphor that I often like to reflect on is the, is the wicked or the, the Oz metaphor, where like you live outside of Utah, you think of Utah as Elphaba thought about Oz and you want to go to Emerald City, which is where they're going to do it. All right. And you want to meet the wizard.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:33] And then you get there and you find out it's really messed up and the wizards behind the curtain and people aren't living the way they should. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:51:39] That was my experience. And I love that you say that because this morning.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] What'd you say this morning?

Rylee Porter [01:51:44] The exact same. Peeking behind the curtain. But I mean, just for what it's worth, I saw the original cast of Wicked on Broadway. I mean, we loved Wicked.

JoCee Porter [01:51:57] Yes.

Rylee Porter [01:51:57] Can't tell you how many times that we saw Wicked on Broadway. But yeah, I'll take the Elphaba reference. That's exactly how I felt.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] Okay. One thing that doesn't quite make sense is your parents could have when they moved to Utah. There are more wealthy educated areas within Utah, so they could have moved to the Avenues in downtown Salt Lake City. They could have moved to Holiday, which is where the Romneys are. And a lot of wealthy people. They could have moved to Park City, which is the most wealthy and least Mormon and most educated probably area in Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:52:31] A lot of Short Hills Mormons.

JoCee Porter [01:52:32] There are places that you named.

John Dehlin [01:52:35] I'll just say Alpine, Lehir area.

Rylee Porter [01:52:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:37] So why did your parents choose North Ogden? And I didn't mean interrupt. I just want to finish that thought.

Rylee Porter [01:52:41] No, yeah, perfect.

John Dehlin [01:52:42] Why are they moving to North Ogden?

JoCee Porter [01:52:44] Right. And it's, it was, it was the compromise with my mom. Right. Brigham City.

Rylee Porter [01:52:47] Midway between Roy and Brigham City. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:52:51] They were the midpoint to both the families and that's why North Ogden, because

John Dehlin [01:52:55] you probably would have had a totally. Like, we raised our kids in North Logan, which again was not good for our kids. We wish we had raised them in Salt Lake City. City. But, but okay, so you, you, Your mom had family in Brigham City.

JoCee Porter [01:53:07] Right. My dad had family in Roy and that's right in the mid part. That's the midpoint.

John Dehlin [01:53:12] You would have had a totally different experience if you had been raised in Salt Lake City or Park City. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:53:16] Well, where was Lizzy going to school? Cuz Cara talked about the, you know, nuance. Ho talked about Sandy maybe. Yeah, but I mean, you bring up a good point. Cuz a lot of the Short Hills Mormons are in. That's where they're at. Yeah, that's where they're at.

John Dehlin [01:53:30] Anyway.

JoCee Porter [01:53:31] And not just Park City, the Avenues a lot are in the.

Rylee Porter [01:53:33] Well, yeah, obviously, you know, the Nielsens are in the Avenues and. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:37] Or Sugar House or.

JoCee Porter [01:53:38] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] You know. Yeah. Anyway, so you felt bullied and bored and Judged and out of.

JoCee Porter [01:53:45] Absolutely.

Rylee Porter [01:53:46] And bored.

JoCee Porter [01:53:47] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:53:47] I said bored. For sure.

JoCee Porter [01:53:50] For sure.

Rylee Porter [01:53:50] Without stimulated.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:52] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:53:52] I had way too much time to get into trouble. Trouble, quite frankly.

JoCee Porter [01:53:56] We were all, I think, excited for the move. Like, I, like, also, like, didn't want to because, like, your friends are there, but I told you, it's like, felt like the Lehigh family. Right. And then, like, the moment we get to Utah. I hated Utah. And I know Riley did too. We hated Utah. I failed a class in fifth grade because I refused to acknowledge Utah on the state map because I was so angry about moving to Utah.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] Okay, really quickly, what did you hate so much, Josie, about Utah?

JoCee Porter [01:54:19] Just the same. Same thing. Like, the culture. Because I was bullied too. Right. Like, I. I didn't fit in and I didn't feel like I fit in. Right. And I was like, well, these are supposed to be my friends. These are supposed to be, like, important. And I also think that, like, our family grew up without us. Right. And so, like, our family, the cousins were so close and we were so excited to be with our family.

Rylee Porter [01:54:37] And we are outsiders. Even our family, you experienced it with.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:40] In your family.

Rylee Porter [01:54:41] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:54:42] And even still there.

Rylee Porter [01:54:43] We were the rich cousins.

JoCee Porter [01:54:45] Yeah. And snooty. We got spank.

Rylee Porter [01:54:46] I'm sure that we were snooty.

JoCee Porter [01:54:48] I. A thousand percent. You know, and I'm. I don't know what they. You know, but like, even still, they have great connections and we are still the outsiders, I feel like. And so I feel like we were just so outside that I hated it and I did not want to be there.

Rylee Porter [01:55:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:01] That map story. Can I just say, for your personal spirit showing your.

Rylee Porter [01:55:07] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:55:08] Your sense of, like, outrage.

Rylee Porter [01:55:10] I personally outrage situation.

JoCee Porter [01:55:13] My teacher called my parents and my parents supported the failure.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:16] So.

Rylee Porter [01:55:17] Yes. And this is. This is a key point that I want to make. Like, this almost like, what's. How do I want to say this? I don't want to say ill. Contempt of authority. But this idea of questioning authority was celebrated in our family dynamics. My dad and my mom were oath.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:38] Both.

Rylee Porter [01:55:38] Both always like a speak truth to power kind of thing. I mean, they supported Josie failing because she refused to identify. There was a couple of times, like, my brother got into, like, debate matches with, you know, his school teachers and my dad backed my brother.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:53] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:55:54] Like, we definitely. This. Yeah. This value of questioning whole authority of. Of holding Thor authority and power and privilege suspect was celebrated within our family all of the time.

JoCee Porter [01:56:10] Which I'm. I'm grateful for.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:12] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:56:12] Which was really cool.

Rylee Porter [01:56:14] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:56:14] Like, and I Remember, like being, it's like if you ever told you can't go to the bathroom, you have to go to the bathroom, stand up and go anyway, you know, you do not need permission to do that. Like, these are the lessons that my parents taught which I really value and appreciate.

Rylee Porter [01:56:24] Yeah.

Parents' Orthodoxy and Questioning Authority

John Dehlin [01:56:25] How orthodox were your parents by the time you moved to Utah?

Rylee Porter [01:56:28] Well, I would say. When you say Orthodox, do you mean like fundamental or devout? Because they were developed.

John Dehlin [01:56:36] Did they believe it was the one true church? Did they believe we had exclusive authority? Did they believe in golden plates that Joseph translated golden plates from an angel?

Rylee Porter [01:56:45] Literalist.

John Dehlin [01:56:46] Okay, so they were literalists, but they were also culturally not super orthodox. Culturally, right.

Rylee Porter [01:56:54] Yeah. And so, and so this is for me, Utah's hope. Everyone's okay. We'll give it space in case you want to cut it out. But the, that was the beginning. It's, it's really interesting to me, at least in my experience, because I think about Gen Z kids today where like the beginning of their descent, the beginning of their descent with the church starts socially. And, and sometimes that means every, you know, it's like, you know, there's social disclusion or exclusion here, you know, and that, that means for me, the cracks in the facade began socially, which gave me permission to now explore the, the truth claims, the theologic differences that I started to understand more fully once I was in Utah. And so, and to speak to like my dad a little bit. Like, for example, do you remember when the gospel topic essays started coming out? And that to my understanding was like the beginning of the church. Kind of trying to get in front of Mormon apologetics in the era of the Internet and the availability of information before I knew what that was. All I knew is that I saw gospel topics manuals, like booklets in my dad's car, in the office. They were scattered everywhere. So I, and having had adult conversations with my dad now, there's nothing that I bring to his attention that is, is shocking to him. Nothing is like new information. So I know that there's again, a lot of. Because they, these are incredibly intelligent people. Like we said, these are well educated people, especially if they're getting their education not at BYU or you know, at secularized schools, God forbid. So there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance that, you know, is happening. So were they orthodox believing members that thought that this was the one true church? 100%. Was there a certain amount of nuance that had to be incorporated into that like, worldview to make it make sense to them? 100%.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] Would your dad tell people he worked for Ensign Peak? Would he tell people he worked for the church? Was he thought of as a church employee? Did he hide who he worked for and what he did? Because all this would have been before the whistleblowers started whistleblowing, right?

Rylee Porter [01:59:26] I don't think it was important and

JoCee Porter [01:59:28] I don't think he was ever like shameful or afraid of, of working for the church. In fact, I know of quite a few instances where he actually would go and kind of like not speak on behalf of the church because he would never do that because I'd be inappropriate. But he would like go to other wards and give financial advice and be like, just so you know, I'm an investor for the church. And like, maybe you shouldn't trust your bishop and all your investment, you know, decisions, right? Maybe you shouldn't just go into that pyramid ski and kind of like take like a very. And like use that as kind of maybe like not proof so much, but just being like, I, I know what I'm talking about a little bit. I do investments for the church. So it was openly known that he worked for the church and worked for Anzide Peak and he was proud of it. And, and at that time, and I think maybe he still is proud of it. Like, I think it's great.

John Dehlin [02:00:11] Do you think he, back then, before the whistleblowing, he thought of it as a secret, that Ensign Peak was secret and that he worked for something secret. Because that's how we all think of it now. We frame it now that the church had all this gazillion dollars and was investing it in this secret shell company and then series of shell companies. I'm wondering if from his perspective of it sounds like he didn't think of him working for a secret organization doing top secret investing of what I do

JoCee Porter [02:00:41] want to, like, I don't want to speculate, I don't want you to speculate on what my dad thinks or what he feels about what he works for now. So I'm probably not going to answer that fully. But like, he's always been proud of it and I think, and I know that he wants to do good in the world and therefore he is sacrificing a lot to work for Ensign Peak. And I think this is interesting. Like, like he took a big pay cut to work for Ensign Peak. A big pay cut.

Rylee Porter [02:01:03] In fact, most people did.

JoCee Porter [02:01:05] They all do. And so you don't do that unless you think you're working for a source of good and something you're proud of. And so I don't know how he feels. I'm not going to pretend to know, but I think he really wants to do good in the world.

John Dehlin [02:01:16] It's more about how it was displayed in reward and stake and with your Mormon family members in Utah. That's what I meant. I'm not asking you to speak for him. It's more about how it was known. Because you always ask, what, what do you do?

Rylee Porter [02:01:30] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:01:31] You always get asked, what do you do?

Rylee Porter [02:01:32] Yeah, well, and to answer your question transparently, within the context of my lived experiences, like I told you, I. It always felt kind of shadowy what my dad did. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't articulately define what weather. And it's not like, I mean, you know, when I talk to people now and tell them that my dad is an enzyme peak, if they know what that means or like finance, it's like, oh, wow. So your dad must have, like, you know, told you what stocks to invest in and what S and P and got you an S&P 500 at a very young age and bought. No, that was just like, not part of our family discourse. Dad didn't come home and talk about work. He, like, when he finally was away from work, he kind of was like a family man, you know? So like, we, I, we started saying he worked for the church because we knew that there was some sort of affiliation with the church. It took me a long time to unravel what that meant, but just like in social settings, we were like, yeah, my dad works for the church. It has something to do with investment. And I'm sure that he said enzyme peak before. That was a trigger word. Right. And even before, like, the fund was a big deal, astronomical deal. It wouldn't have meant much to people. So I'm sure he spoke of it openly. I know that. I was like, yeah, my dad's like an investor for the church somehow or whatever, but it didn't have the significance that it means to us now.

John Dehlin [02:02:54] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:02:55] Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [02:02:55] And the, and the only reason I'm asking is because also within Utah, if your parents work for the church, there's some sort of, like, respect you get. It's like, whoa, he works for the church. And so hearing that you were bullied, knowing that your dad had a sort of really reputable and important and kind of powerful position within the church, I'm trying to square, why aren't you, why isn't your family getting social credit in your ward for that elite status of working for the church.

JoCee Porter [02:03:28] So you know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [02:03:29] That's why I'm asking.

JoCee Porter [02:03:30] This is a good point to like, put in time frame perspective. So we moved to Utah without my dad.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:35] Dad.

Rylee Porter [02:03:35] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:03:35] He stayed in New Jersey for another eight months.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:37] Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:03:38] Right. And then I was wrapping things up

JoCee Porter [02:03:40] and then eight months after, so it was just our family with my.

Rylee Porter [02:03:43] With my mom again and just us kids.

JoCee Porter [02:03:45] And so that's kind of our introduction to like the warden into our first year of Utah. And then the next four months, my didn't. My dad wasn't working for Enzyme Peak. He didn't have a job. So our first year.

Rylee Porter [02:03:54] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:03:55] Wasn't associated with Enzyme Peak at all. And so maybe that's why you were

John Dehlin [02:03:58] established in the ward.

JoCee Porter [02:03:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:59] Without that connection.

JoCee Porter [02:04:01] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:04:01] Yeah. And also, I mean, my family has never progressed within church leadership at all. My dad has never been a bishop. He's never been called to anything else. And I think a lot of that is, is quite frankly, and I'm just going to speak transparently as that social anxiety that my mom has was diagnosed and understood later, but it's never gone away. My mom doesn't go to church like she. To this day, she does not go to church. My dad goes to church more often alone. My mom will come every once in a while. But even though she's a devout, believing Mormon, that's. There's so much social pressure, even more so in some ways in the Utah Mormon experience that again, you know, like, my mom likes to be with her sisters. And again, my mom came from a cultural Mormon family. One of her sisters is an orthodox believing, you know, Mormon. The other two are not. So my. And everyone knows that, you know, if you're ever a Mormon or a Mormon, experiences like the stake presidents and the bishops are the exemplary family where all members are participant 100% at every church activity, are fully invested. And at this point, I'm not going to church quite as much because quite frankly, there's no solace for me there, nor is there any what feels like intellectual stimulation which I. So I would, you know, claim personal scripture study, which my parents quite frankly supported because they knew how much I struggled with the ward. So we never fit the, like, stereotypical family that would have progressed within Mormonism. And, and, and in some ways I think shame on them for not recognizing, like, not only our worth as a family and how we could have contributed to that community, but how, like I said, my dad goes out of his way to provide mentorship positions to every young man. He has, like, an encounter with. He got our brother into West Point. Helped get our brother into West Point. He's an influential guy, so shame on them for not recognizing how much good he could do in a position of power. Because my mom has social anxiety and we didn't go to church fully.

JoCee Porter [02:06:12] It's a good point. And I think, like, another thing that kind of made us weird is that, like, my dad encouraged us to question authority, even with. Within the church. Right. And so if something was said during testimony and we were like, that was weird. Right? Like, he'd be like, yes, that was weird.

Rylee Porter [02:06:24] That was.

JoCee Porter [02:06:24] Let's talk about that and why that was weird.

Rylee Porter [02:06:26] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:06:26] And then be like, and that's not doctrine.

Rylee Porter [02:06:28] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:06:28] Like, and sometimes that would be the conclusion. Or the bishop would say something, be like, that's not doctrine. Right. That's just culture, you know, kind of, like, wash it away as that. But we were taught to question the church as well, to, like, think critically about it, which I think is a very valuable skill, but also is not always recognized in. In church leadership or accepted for children to question this kind of religion that they grow up in.

John Dehlin [02:06:50] It's not Utah Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:52] No.

John Dehlin [02:06:52] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:06:53] No.

John Dehlin [02:06:53] Yeah. That's the opposite of Utah Mormonism. We suffered from that.

Rylee Porter [02:06:58] Yes.

JoCee Porter [02:06:59] And I think we're a problem. We'd get in fights with seminary teachers. We get in fights with our leaders and be like, show me the scripture.

Rylee Porter [02:07:05] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:07:06] Where does it say that in the scriptures? It's not.

Rylee Porter [02:07:08] We knew our stuff.

JoCee Porter [02:07:09] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:07:09] We were very problematic.

John Dehlin [02:07:11] North Ogden.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:12] I was gonna say yes.

Rylee Porter [02:07:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:13] Or bountiful or, like, you know, Alpine. You know, that's just not gonna fly.

Rylee Porter [02:07:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:18] What were you gonna say, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:20] Oh, no, Just feeling it.

John Dehlin [02:07:21] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:07:21] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:07:22] I mean, I. So this was, like, one of the last seminaries that I ever attended. And. And again, even, like, I unders. Like, there, it felt like a. Like a. It just felt inappropriate. And I want to say almost grossly inappropriate that seminary buildings were across from school and that you were excused from the public school system. And also how, like, again, myopic and tone deaf. It's like, are those privileges afforded people of other faiths? Oh, of course not. Because you just assume everyone if. If they're religious, they're Mormon, and there's no other, like, religious tradition besides Mormonism. So that always felt like it didn't sit well with me. I was like, is there no separation of church and state in Utah? Like, you know, so I had a problem with, you know, seminary that in a lot of Ways again, was like confirmed by my parents, you know, but. But I did it. I, you know, did like the. Because I wanted a free period and it's not like I was getting much from school anyways. So yeah, I'll go to seminary. And I really struggled with every seminary teacher that I had because it felt like cultural teachings. And this is when I was beginning to feel like I was being beaten over the head with gender roles in a way that I did never experience before. And even for my young women's leaders, again, this is where like Lizzie's story is like very pertinent to my own is like when I had young women's in New Jersey, a lot of these were like working women. This, this was not, you know, and not even because they like needed to be or whatever, but because these were like successful, educated women who wanted their own and had the privilege to be able to afford a nanny, quite frankly. So there was a. We knew a lot of double income. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:09:07] And that.

Rylee Porter [02:09:08] That provided also employment to the immigrants that we knew. Right. You know, I mean, our family had a host of nannies.

JoCee Porter [02:09:15] Nannies coming for a little while that.

Rylee Porter [02:09:17] I mean, I'm not even sure that they nannied us, but we gave them a place to, you know, a place to live and, and money and. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:09:23] You know, a safety net for when they needed it.

Rylee Porter [02:09:25] Yeah. So. So. So I didn't get the. Your primary role and your significant purpose here on earth is to be a wife and a mother. That didn't happen. So I mean, that was a part of the conversation. But you were like I said, talked to like you were a partner and you were expected to be a contributing to partner in your marriage. It wasn't like a superiority inferiority. You were just, you know, even though we saw a little bit of that, obviously there were like women who sacrificed their careers more often than not. Like, our mother made a lot of sacrifices to support my dad's career. That was more often the case than the other way around. I, I mean, I can't think of a anecdote off the top of my head where like the dad quit his job to, you know, support the finance career of a woman. But all of this to say I did not feel like the, the gender norms, you know, were pushed upon me until I moved to Utah. And it was one thing to get it from like the, you know, well, to do young women's leaders that were stay at home moms and it's like, okay, you know, they have value in their experience. It would make sense that they think that that's the only route that women should be taking is. Is, you know, because that was their lived experience. Of course that's going to be what they emulate and support and tell these young women to do. But when I got it from male seminary teachers. Could not. Could not. And so the last seminary class I kind of remember is there. I had a seminary teacher, he had a mason jar and two clothespins, and it was a lesson about marriage. And he put the two clothespins inside of the mason jar and grabbed the seal, just the open seal, and was like, this seal represents the rings that you exchange when you get married. And the mason jar is significant of marriage. And so he put the clothespins into the mason jar. It meant they were married. And he put the seal on top of it. And he was like, but when turbulence happens in the marriage and, like, shakes things around, the clothespins obviously fall out of the mason jar, right? And he was like, so that's what happens, you know, when there's, like, problems within a marriage and they are not temple marriages. And then he does the same demonstration where he takes, like, the top part of the mason jar. I guess that's the seal. What's the ring?

JoCee Porter [02:11:40] The lid.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:42] We're gonna call it a ring.

Rylee Porter [02:11:44] Yeah, the lid. The screw on lid or whatever. So once he took the. The seal, the mason seal, which, like, covered up the mason jar, he put the clothespins in that represented a temple ceiling. And now you could, you know, screw on the lid and turbulence happens in the marriage, and you shake up the marriage. But see, they stayed married because they had that added security of a temple marriage. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I can. The audacity for someone to teach that. And how arrogant to not know. I mean, Is there a 100%? Are all of these kids here come from still? No. Of course, some of them have experienced divorce, temple marriage or not. I haven't seen any statistical evidence that supports that you're more likely to, you know, succeed in your marriage, whatever that looks like. And. And that we were, like, shaming families and kids from, like, divorced parents. Like, so feeling that in seminary and then even feeling it in public school. I had this adult rose class, whatever adult roles means. It's not like anyone taught me how to apply to college or balance a checkbook. It was like, how to cook things. It was the silliest class. But the teacher had everyone stand up, and she was like, all right, everyone stand up. And if you plan to save yourself until marriage, if you plan to, you know, practice abstinence until marriage continue to stand. And I just remember, like, being like, this is happening in public school. How is this legal? How is this? And what a weird way to socially pressure teenagers in high school about abstinence until marriage. Like, so many things just felt grossly inappropriate and culturally informed, not necessarily doctrinal anywhere that I was like, I don't get anything from this. And so I checked out a seminary real quick.

High School Faith Struggles and Seminary Experiences

John Dehlin [02:13:41] What? Great.

Rylee Porter [02:13:42] About like, 10th grade.

John Dehlin [02:13:44] Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:13:44] Josie's the only one who graduated seminary, bless her heart.

JoCee Porter [02:13:47] Including my brother. Of the three kids he went on the mission, I graduated seminary.

Rylee Porter [02:13:51] I'm gonna own that one.

JoCee Porter [02:13:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:53] So let's do this. Let's do. Let's do Riley. Let's do your faith trajectory within Mormonism. And then we'll back up and we'll do Josie's. Yeah, separate. Okay. So you're moving. So here's what I've heard so far. Moving to Utah, you're feeling bullied, you're feeling like they're not being culturally embraced. And then you're seeing all these weird patriarchal social norms being advanced by seminary teachers and by the public school system. And it's feeling off to you. It's feeling misogynistic, patriarchal superiority based, sort of judgmental of non LDS cultures, of divorced families. And it's just feeling off. Let's just talk about. But. But you would have still been expected to go to young women's. You would have been expected to go to mutual. To dances, maybe efy. So talk about your spiritual progression, you know, in high school and then after. And how your relationship to the church followed.

JoCee Porter [02:15:00] Yeah, yeah, I'm settling in for this. Let's hear it.

Rylee Porter [02:15:05] Well, so you're right. The experience that I had with Utah not only felt, like, intolerant, but it felt like, insidious. Like, it felt insidious. Insidious.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:17] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:15:17] Thank you. Just kind of, like, mildly evil or like, planned. It started to feel like there was a reason why you were supposed to feel bad about yourself all of the time. That, that must, like, serve a purpose, to feel unworthy and to feel like you needed the church. Right. Like in that story, like you needed a temple marriage to have a successful, fulfilling, happy marriage. Like, it started to feel like, systemically there were things that I was, like, recognizing that I was just blind to before in kind of like my utopian New Jersey Mormon experience.

John Dehlin [02:16:07] But if, like, I didn't have an awakening until I'm in my 30s, about, like my Elphaba moment, where I'm like, wait a minute. There's a wizard behind the curtain. Oz isn't what I thought.

Rylee Porter [02:16:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:20] What's it like? How were you processing this as the only member of your family realizing that Oz was bad and that the wizard was bad while your dad worked for the church and while you're living in Oz, Utah, with all the Mormons around you? Like, what's that like? As a teenage girl having to also deal with puberty and adolescence? I just can't imagine what that would be like for your brain.

Rylee Porter [02:16:49] Devastating for your psychological health.

John Dehlin [02:16:52] And who did you talk to and who did you share these thoughts with and feelings?

Rylee Porter [02:16:56] No one. Yeah, I mean, it was devastating.

John Dehlin [02:17:00] Your friends?

JoCee Porter [02:17:02] She was Regina George.

Rylee Porter [02:17:03] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [02:17:04] What do you mean? Tell us what you mean by that.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:06] So.

Rylee Porter [02:17:07] So Mean Girls came out when I was in high school. The, like, Lindsay Lohan movie was, like, a big deal. And. And I should take it as a compliment now because it was Rachel McAdams who was, like, a platinum blonde in the movie, but she was, like, the lead mean girl, and her name was Regina George. That was the character's name in the movie. And they started calling me Regina George. And so I kind of. I took that on. I'd be like, yeah, I'm Regina George. So I almost, like, became what they wanted me to be. Meaning what a mean girl. Like. Like. Like, I just held myself separate again. I had a lot of guy friends. And then this is another thing that I want to speak to is like, you know, who was the most accepting part of my peer group were, like, the black sheep themselves were the kids who didn't have, like, an approach, weren't the student body leadership. It was the misfits. It was the outcasts. It was the people who dressed differently, talk differently, look differently. You know, maybe some counterculture, you know, like rock and roll and, you know, kind of these, like, counterculture edgy punk kids that were inclusive to me. It was the kids who were kind of getting in trouble for, you know, I don't know, exactly. A little bit of drug abuse, a

John Dehlin [02:18:22] little bit of sexual experimentation.

Rylee Porter [02:18:24] Exactly. It was the people who, like. Yeah, a little bit of counter. But were quickly identified as bad and other by, like, the Mormon elite student body officers. So it was definitely, like, these kids. And. And so those were the circles that I started hanging out with because they were my friends. They were the people who were kind to me. And, like, even though, I mean, I. I didn't really, you know, I didn't have sex until later. Like, you know, I wasn't sexually active in high school, even though the rumors about my sexual activity were so prolific that Josie, who is four years younger than me, was shocked to learn that I didn't have sex in high school. When I told her that, yeah, Josie thought that I was, you know, some scandalous, you know, because the boys liked me, because, like, I was, you know, very popular with, like, the boys or whatever.

JoCee Porter [02:19:14] But even more than that, you kind of became the outcast within our family as well. Right. It's not like we were, like, accepting of this rebellious child who's start not. We're just like, oh, Riley's starting to question things, and she's also not fitting in. Natural consequences.

Rylee Porter [02:19:27] It's starting to become problematic because now, like, not only am I, like, critical towards, like, my, like, seminary teachers, that we all agree as a family are, like, maybe silly and. And maybe like, culturally Mormon who don't. But, like, and then this is something that also, again, you know, goes to a credit to our father. We are all prolific readers. We are all, like, prolific autodidacts. And at this point now I have the Internet, so I always knew, for example. And so there was like two schisms. There was the first schism that was social and feeling like I fit in with the outcast kids and feeling completely isolated, and it was totally devastating. And again, being Mormon was an integral part of my identity. That was how I, like, identified myself in New Jersey. So that being taken away. And also, what does Mormonism mean? Oh, and by the way, what is Mormonism and what is more of this? And again, these were things that, like, I knew anecdotally as stories growing up. Like, I knew that polygamy happened in. In New Jersey because it would be confronted with me sometimes. Like, I would have some, you know, school friends, moms, who. I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm a Mormon. And they'd be like, like, oh, that's sweet, honey. How many moms do you have? You know, and tongue in cheek, I'd be like, three. And I love every single one of them. Like, just totally saucy. But, like, we knew that polygamy was, like, a part of, like, that story because, like, that's how people identified us. And we had to, you know, that was a good missionary opportunity. Like, oh, no, no, no, no. We're not like, you know, those. Those crazy fundamentalist Mormons in southern Utah. You know, I only have one mom, and my. My mom and dad love each other. And again, you know, that social and cultural conformity and assimilation that you speak about right around the David O. McKay area where no longer the long beards but all the clean shaven social elite, business looking guys. Exactly. So first. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

John Dehlin [02:21:25] There's like jocks and there's like geeks and nerds and there's, you know, Goody 2 Shoe Mormons and there's goth or there's stoners. Like did you have an identity in, in high school?

Rylee Porter [02:21:38] Artsy? A little bit. I was like pretty involved in like apr, and I was involved in like the drama a little bit again. I was like, you know, enchanted by Broadway and like, you know, dancing and performing was like a big part of my experience in New Jersey. So when I came here, I participated in a lot of like the musicals and the theater aspect of it. In fact, my first scholarship was in musical theater.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] Did you go inactive in high school where you stopped going to church?

Rylee Porter [02:22:07] Yeah, I started not going to church and again, originally it was like supported by my parents because like they believed that I was self studying like scripture or whatever. But I still, I showed up and go through the motions. I mean, I didn't stop going completely. Like I'd go to girls camp sometimes when I felt like it. And then when I got there and realized that we were just painting each other's toenails and talking about what our Mormon husbands would be, I was like, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna go to girls camp next year. But increasingly I became more suspicious of my parents and I think that that was developmentally normal in a lot of ways. But also I started to like question their credibility and their moral credibility. And also, and, and I heard it said once that the first heartbreak you ever experience is learning that your, that your parents are mere mortals, are just humans. But I, you know, there was like typical struggles between like my parents and in their marriage. And I felt like the oldest byways, I was more involved in that than is probably developmentally appropriate. And but then it gave me an opportunity to see both of my parents as like sinners in their own right and the hurting party in each other's marriage and you know, kind of like, yeah, that there was like struggles within the family that I was like all too aware of. And so my parents started to lose like their moral and their authority, like credibility with me. And again, like I said, I was bored because I wasn't getting much from school. I started skipping school a lot and then showing up on test days because I could pass the tests. I knew the information already, you know, but more and More. I started, you know, skipping school, and my parents were put in a really, really difficult situation because, like, I wasn't extremely outward behaving badly, but I think because there was such a breakdown of any structure or who I thought I was, I felt so lost. I felt misunderstood. I just felt so in place that absolutely there were, like, behavioral manifestations of that, because I was, like, a teenager who was going through a really traumatic, challenging thing. And I think, quite frankly, my parents didn't know I was there.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:34] First.

Rylee Porter [02:24:34] They were, like, really regimented with me, especially my dad growing up in academics and stuff. And then I started kind of rebelling where it's like, well, dad, you're the one who moved me to this, you know, hit kill Billy school. So, you know, who are you to tell me that I have to, like, go and study or go and do this, or, you know, I can just show up on test day? And there was a certain amount of anger and resentment for them for putting me in this situation. I'm starting to see them as, like, more and more like humans. You know, I'm frustrated with both of them. I'm frustrated with the dynamics. I'm frustrated with the situation. I feel trapped. I feel unheard. And obviously, like, as some of that resentment turned, not just towards, like, my seminary teachers who didn't get it, and my, like, you know, airheaded public school teachers, but on them a little bit, obviously there was going to be a schism. And quite frankly, I just don't think my parents knew what to do with me. So I started increasingly becoming the black sheep of the. Of the family. And I. But I took up a lot of their time, and I caused my parents a lot of heartbreak, you know, and those are bridges that we've had to knowingly and lovingly repair as adults. But there was a long time where I didn't talk to my parents, especially once I graduated high school. And again, I barely graduated. Barely graduated Weber High School because I wasn't allowed to walk. I, like, owed them an inordinate amount of, like, public service hours because I would skip all the time. But my grades weren't bad. I passed my test. But they were like, listen, you either do, like. I mean, to me, it was like a million. It must have been, like, 500 hours of community service or simply. Yeah, it felt like. It felt like a million. It felt like a, you know, inachievable number of. Or, you know, you can just get your diploma, but you can't walk and you can't participate in this, right? And I was like, mail me my diploma piece. And so I went up to Utah State and. But again, like, loved college and started doing. I had problems with the culture in Utah State. And we can kind of come back to that later. It's. It's a very weird college experience. There's like, the BYU rejects who are, like, trying really, really, really hard to be, like, exemplar. And then there are the kids who are trying so hard to prove that they're not Mormon, that they're, like, acceptable, excessively binge drinking and excessively partying. And it felt like a very, like, polarized place to be where, again, I felt like I had no, like, community. I just wanted to be outside and, like, go river rafting. And that's the one. That is the one blessing that I want to speak to about my Utah experience is I started understanding that I had a true passion for, like, outdoor recreation with my girls, camp experience. And stuff. And I moved to Utah and. And was like, this is Mecca. Like, I. Within the first year, I was like, I'm gonna teach myself to snowboard. I eventually learned how to rock climb. I became a river raft guide. Like, I got so much value from being outside, and that was church to me. That, like, that was my saving grace for my Utah experiences. I just started hiking and being outside all of the time. And, like, that's how I started to build community again. When I had none and lost some was. Was the outdoor side of things. But I started looking underneath the hood because I had the Internet and I loved history. I loved all of my historical classes that I would start hearing things. Like, again, I knew that polygamy exists, but until, like, you have sex or understand what marriage means, polygamy is just, like, a weird word. And then starting to become sexually active later, it's like you start to understand the nitty gritty of what that must entail.

John Dehlin [02:28:28] Really quick. So much here. So I think about when I was on my mission, there were missionaries that would goof off and we would all judge them as just being slackers or unfaithful, faithful or lame. When in reality, looking back now, some of them just were forced to go on a mission and didn't believe. And so they were acting out, but they were acting out for good reasons. But we would have never been able to talk about it because we just simply judged them as being unfaithful.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:00] So, like, there's a layer. I'm thinking about your high school and probably college years where your behavior could have easily been written off. As, oh, she's just an irrational teen, or, oh, she's just mentally whatever anxiety, depression, or whatever a diagnosis might have been, a problem child, rebellious. So behavior could have been written off in stereotypical glib ways. But then oftentimes there are underpinning issues that inform the acting out. And so while you get judged as not being on the train, as being a black sheep, as being a problem child, the truth is you're actually ahead of everybody else, seeing that there's a problem, not fitting in, seeing that even your parents don't see the problems that you're detecting during a very vulnerable developmental time. But then you get judged culturally, and then you sort of like. It's almost like this reinforcing dynamic that pushes you into even more maybe unhealthy behaviors or patterns, when in reality you were actually catching on to the problems before everybody else. And so it's almost. It can be perceived as tragic when you sort of get punished for being in some ways wiser and noticing the problems before everybody else. And I, I'm not trying to push that on you as a narrative. No, but I'm. But I wonder if there's something to that.

Rylee Porter [02:30:40] Well, and I have a story, like, I think that encapsulates that exact phenomenon that you described as. So obviously my parents are like, oh my gosh, what is wrong with her? Is it. Is it depression? Like you're saying? Is it, you know, something neurological, borderline

John Dehlin [02:30:55] personality disorder or, you know, some sort of narcissism, Some sort of personality disorder? Right?

Rylee Porter [02:31:01] Yeah, There has to be some sort of underpinning that, like, our daughter is suddenly becoming a different person and like really acting out and stuff. And so they took me to my primary care physician, which again, was that same poor bishop who, who was worried about me in the first place. But it was. Was the weirdest doctor visit I ever had because again, he was like my bishop, which felt inappropriate. But I'm sitting there and, you know, he's talking to me and he's like, well, you know, do you feel sad and do you feel. And looking back, it wasn't depression, but I was like, well, I don't know, not really. And then he asked this question and said, well, do you think that you're feeling sad and therefore you're acting out? Or are your actions or what you're the. Is this kind of the natural consequence of the bad decisions that you're making? Are you making bad decisions and then therefore that's making you sad and depressed? And I just like, remember, like, walking Away where I was like, yeah, I guess something's wrong with me, I guess, you know, but it was. It was really hard to. Even though I know to my younger siblings, I started to be portrayed as, you know, kind of like a bad Mormon. That. That was a tough pill to swallow because I started reading church history and I was like, it was really frustrating because it felt like in a lot of ways that my parents were complicit in things that I knew were not shown to me accurately as a child. And so what? I'm a bad Mormon. I don't want to be associated with this anymore anyways. So there's a lot of that.

JoCee Porter [02:32:49] Right. Well, I think we should, like, pause a moment to just talk about how that our childhood bishop was also our primary care physician. Can we just openly acknowledge how gross that is, how weird, how inappropriate that kind of thing is? And it wasn't fair for you to have that interaction like that because that's supposed to be another safety net for you as a child. Child to go to a doctor and get help.

Rylee Porter [02:33:10] Well, just the blurring of lines. Right. Like, because the church becomes all encompassing in every aspect of your life, you know, in Utah. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:19] It actually, like, as you're talking, I just am feeling so deeply for you as, like, this young, developing, thinking, feeling human, where it just feels like moving to Utah as we follow your timeline, which I think follows like a developmentally appropriate kind of trajectory in so very many ways, minus your environment, minus sort of this lack of support and resources and safety and feeling like there's a place for you to go. And so that's what I feel so much is, like, this. This tremendous loneliness, this tremendous feeling of just like there's nowhere to go. It's everywhere, you know?

Rylee Porter [02:34:07] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And when you speak of those resources, because all of those resources are so embedded in the church that they don't feel like soulless and they don't feel like a resource. Yeah. So, yeah, it was in college that I started, like, looking into that. I learned pretty quickly, and this was a challenge for me, that what I knew was anti Mormon literature, anti Mormon was historical documentation was first primary resources, which at this point I've learned to think critically. That doesn't add up. I've always been inspired by investigative journalism and loved all of my journalism classes. Again, speaking truth to power. When I learned that Joseph Smith was in prison in the first place because he burnt down a printing press like that did, I was like, whoa. I remember going to Palmyra and going through the displays no one told me that Joseph burnt down a printing pressure. Then like, again, you know, like, I knew that polygamy existed, but I didn't know what that meant. And I didn't know that it started with Joseph until I started, you know, like, there were there for me, there was Reddit before there was TikTok, you know, and started like learning about, you know, Fanny Alger and then also like another like to me, what felt like a pivotal moment because again, you're very racially inclusive when you live on the East Coast. You have to be. So when I learned that the Mormon territory by popular sovereignty vote, elected to be a slave territory, I was like, the Mormons, the Mormon pioneers had slaves and wanted to be a slave. That's like what I knew of, like the south and you know, when you're an upcoast, you know, northeasterner, there's a certain sort of, you know, kind of judgment that you have for the south. And then to recognize that like Utah was in the same boat, Utah was practicing slavery. And there. And then I learned about the Mountain Meadow Massacre and the, this certain amount of like. And all of a sudden things were just like falling into place. I was like, oh, that's why everyone's white. And I knew kind of like what, you know, that my mom knew this, had this story where she dated a black kid in high school who didn't have the priesthood. So I knew that there was like a change in, you know, priesthood doctrine, doctrine. But peeling back and looking underneath the hood of the engine and seeing like where that came from and oh, because Brigham was explicitly racist and he said these explicitly racist things about Native Americans and there's these quotes from Joseph Smith, I cannot believe. And he bold face lied about the polygamy and he was basically cheating on Emma. And There was this 13 year old who was underneath his care and these two sisters or cousins are like. It's like the more it's, the more that I pulled, the more I was like, everything has been a lie. Everything that I knew is Mormonism has been whitewashed. And the things that I started confronting my dad about, which again, he, he knew, he, he was reading all of the apologetic stuff. You know, I was like, dad, well, what about the explicit racism? And remember in Second Nephi where it talks about like the white skin being like beautiful and God created it that way because the Lamanites would be loth some to them so that there wouldn't be like interracial. Come on, we don't believe that, dad. But, but it's in the Book of Mormon itself. It's written into doctrine. You can't just tell me that those are like cultural whoopsie daisies, that it's embedded and baked into the doctrine. Yeah, this is what you believe.

John Dehlin [02:37:58] Translated revealed scripture.

Rylee Porter [02:37:59] Do you support these people as word mouths of God or not? Like, they can't make mistakes. Mistakes. Then they, they. Are they not held to a higher standard? Is they're not like, do they not have to live up to that creed? And so, and, and again it's. And again, I have to give my dad credit here. Even though this was like very painful and I definitely feel isolated, especially when I moved up to Logan, which, you know, again, like I said, I ended up eventually coming back to Weber State. But I mean there, there was a certain amount of like financial cut off that like my parents did that was a little like, I, I know that I probably caused them a lot of heartache and turmoil and they like supported me financially and then got to a point where they were like, you're on your own, kid. You know, like. And so there was like a lot of ill will for a long time. For a long time.

John Dehlin [02:38:48] What year about did you start going down the rabbit hole? What year in college were you? What age about were you?

Rylee Porter [02:38:56] Well, it started as a senior in high school. A little bit here, a little bit there. This sounds historically inaccurate, you know, like,

John Dehlin [02:39:03] I think was that. What year did you graduate?

Rylee Porter [02:39:05] Oh, I graduated high school. 2010.

John Dehlin [02:39:06] Okay, so 2010, your faith starts unraveling.

Rylee Porter [02:39:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:11] Then you go to first Utah State, then Weber. And when would you have been having these really intense conversations with, with your dad?

JoCee Porter [02:39:20] I mean, he didn't talk to us for a few years, so yeah, would have had to be later.

John Dehlin [02:39:24] Did you become estranged from the family during, during this, some of this time. What did that mean exactly?

Rylee Porter [02:39:32] I just didn't have a lot of contact with them.

John Dehlin [02:39:34] Yeah, while you were in Logan or. Yeah, Weber.

Rylee Porter [02:39:39] Yeah, while I was in, in Logan, I started having less and less contact with them.

John Dehlin [02:39:44] Were you financially independent or were they still supporting you financially?

Rylee Porter [02:39:48] I took out loans for my first little bit of my college experience and stuff, you know, and I mean, they gave me vehicles which, you know, I had like accidents with, you know, or whatever. So they, they provided means. But yeah, I got cut off from a lot of the financial support.

John Dehlin [02:40:08] How did you support yourself?

Rylee Porter [02:40:09] Call centers. I worked a lot of call centers

John Dehlin [02:40:12] and then waitressing, like service or converges or whatever.

Rylee Porter [02:40:16] Yes, that was the name of it. Yeah, a lot of call centers.

JoCee Porter [02:40:21] If I remember correctly, like, you took out like credit card debt to pay your lifestyle, which you should never do as an 18 year old.

Rylee Porter [02:40:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:30] And what made you become cut off from your parents and your family in your mind?

Rylee Porter [02:40:37] A lot of little things. Right. It's like the death of like a million cuts. But I think my behaviorally, like acting out and like being angry and causing them pain and you know, how much was church related?

John Dehlin [02:40:48] Was it that you were drinking, you know, drugs? Was it sexually acting out? Like, what is it that drove the wedge where you like. Because I, I know your parents are loving, kind people.

Rylee Porter [02:41:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:03] And I know they wanted what was best for you. And it sounds like they were even sort of socially progressive. So what would, what would cause that divide where you would want to just be separate from them for a couple years?

Rylee Porter [02:41:15] I moved in with my boyfriend. Okay. I moved in with my, with my college boyfriend.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:22] Okay.

Growing Dissatisfaction With the Church in High School

John Dehlin [02:41:22] So, I mean, that's so like I was gonna, I always ask, in the high school years, you started out by saying you noticed that within Utah, something systemically toxic or pernicious. What was the word you used?

Rylee Porter [02:41:38] But I like pernicious better.

John Dehlin [02:41:40] Where everybody was made to feel shame and, and you noticed that, you identified that.

Rylee Porter [02:41:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:49] But then you also just, you weren't vibing with the culture and you weren't vibing with the religion, but your dad worked for the church and so you, you had normal teen rebellion, but you also were rebelling about against Mormonism.

Rylee Porter [02:42:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:04] And you just weren't on the Mormon train. You weren't, you didn't graduate from, from seminary, you weren't planning on temple marriage, and you were kind of a budding feminist in a way, in a lot of ways. And you, and you weren't living the law of the word of wisdom and eventually the law of chastity, but at some point that builds to where you want to cut yourself off from your family.

Rylee Porter [02:42:30] Yeah, yeah. Because, because I rejected where there was that insidious sense of like, unworthiness. I rejected the premise that your only way to redeem your was through the church because the church started to lose its moral credibility to me.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:44] So.

Rylee Porter [02:42:45] Yeah, that's big. That's really big. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:48] Because a lot of kids have their rebellious phase. 16, 17, 18. But then they're like, oh crap, I had sex or oh crap, I drank, or oh, I hurt my parents. Now I'm going to shape up and then like go on a mission or I'm going to shape up and go to byu or I'm going to shape up and get that temple marriage and they kind of, after their rebellious time, they shape up and then they get back on the Mormon train. You didn't do that. And I think at least in part, it's because you had realized it wasn't the way, like it wasn't true and

Margi Dehlin [02:43:23] it was harmful and it didn't line up with your values. Like it was a values thing.

Rylee Porter [02:43:28] Yeah, the lack of transparency bothered me. Yeah. And the fact that they didn't represent themselves in the way that I knew the church. Church to be. So therefore, like, no, you're not my avenue to redeem my, myself because like, in a lot of ways you're a corrupt institution. And again, at this point, like, I knew at least enough that like my dad was an investor for the church. And like, I'm starting to understand things better. And I'm like, daddy, you know, that's really kind of interesting because you act as like a for profit investment firm, but your revenue is untaxed and you guys don't have to pay any taxes. And does that neatly fall underneath the organization of the cause? I knew at least entry level enough stuff that I was like, well, dad, the church isn't taxed. And by the way, you're guaranteed like revenue in no way that by what I started calling a membership fee. He's like, oh, Riley, we don't call it a membership fee. And I was like, well, tell me how tithing isn't a membership fee because if you want to go through the saving rights of the temple ordinances, you've got to pay your fee to get there is how I started understanding things, you know, so there was entry level enough where like, now the obfuscation really starts where like a lot of the lines are blurring because like, not only does the church seem, my parents seem complicit in a system where they know the church isn't what they represented it to be. Not only on truth claims, but also on the financial aspect of everything. And I'm like starting to look at the temples differently because I'm like, that's. And then I think of my experiences with like Brother V, who was boiling chicken bones to eat and was paying a full tithing because he felt like that was like a prerequisite of worthiness of someone who should have never been made to feel unworthy in the first place. So when I say that the church started to become pernicious in my mind, it started to become like inherently and knowingly evil and that these weren't just mistakes, that the truth was Hidden and knowingly and intentionally hidden from its members and its true believing members. Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:45:39] Yeah, well, it's. It's hard enough to be viewed by your family as a black sheep, and then it's hard enough in Utah to fall away from the church, but then to compound upon that, you feeling like you, you feel like maybe your parents are complicit in the harm, and then you feel like you need to cut yourself off, but you're doing it from your perspective as a matter of conscience. That is just so intense and heavy. It's so much to carry.

Rylee Porter [02:46:12] It's a lot to carry. And so, and it was for like, a long time that, like, I, I didn't make the move to take my records out of the church. I mean, I just, like, I stopped participating, I stopped engaging. I, you know, and, and for me, and, and I don't know exactly where it falls neatly in the timeline because at least for me, well, I, I'd say the last straw where I was like, you know what? Thank God that I didn't progress down like, the Mormon monopoly road as far as I did is again, you know, I'm a digital native. I'm a millennial. And when New Age Noah posted the temple service, that was. And because I'd never progressed that far, I did, like, baptisms for the dead, but I didn't take out my endowments or anything else, which, like, on some level, again, I felt like there was righteousness in what I was doing, but I was being told by my closest family members, by my parents, by my siblings, by my cousins, by my aunts, especially by my uncles and like, you know, everyone else around me that, like, what I was doing was wrong and what I was doing was, I, I didn't have the strength of testimony to, to get, I'd like to say, eat around the, like, like, if there's a brownie and there's so much good stuff and richness and beautiful aspects of this delicious brownie, which is the gospel, but then you start seeing that baked within the brownie is, is dog poop. And, and you're supposed to, you know, your testimony is supposed to be strong enough that you take the good parts by why, while somehow conveniently forgetting the bad things that you've now learned that that was like a character failing on my end. That wasn't that. You know, no one told me that, you know, like, maybe, maybe the church was doing bad things. I was portrayed as a bad person who was making bad choices.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:15] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:48:16] Yeah, exactly. So I, I kind of just had Nothing to do with it. And. But when I first really started feeling validated, where I was like, you know what? Maybe I'm not a bad person, and maybe that there's some systemic badness here. And it was like, the first time, you know, there's a lot of debate over, like, do we cause. Call this a C word or not? Is it a cult or not? But when I watched the New Age Noah temple ceremony and I watched what they, like, put these people through without consent, because you're not allowed to know what goes on in the temples before, even though you're being primed your entire life on how this is such a significant, important part of, like, your identity as a woman and part of your marriage and part of your eternal family structure, which I was starting to feel farther and farther from, right. I was like, the weak link that was going to, you know, be the detriment to my eternal family chain, which was not fun to think about as a teenager and as a young adult. Especially as a young adult. But when I saw the temple ceremonies, I was like, if it looks like a cult and if it smells like a cult, maybe I'm glad that I'm not in the cult anymore. I started to, like, that kind of was like the turning point in the Genesis for me, where I was like, maybe I'm justified for not wanting to participate in what's really starting to look a lot like a cult to me. I mean, it's just such a shocking thing. It was just shocking. I just remember being floored, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. This is what they told me would be beautiful and loving and, like, a great experience in my life. This looks really scary. Yeah. So I saw the new. And that was, I want to say, 2013, 2014.

John Dehlin [02:49:55] That was new name Noah.

Rylee Porter [02:49:56] New name Noah on YouTube.

John Dehlin [02:49:58] It's the same year the Gospel Topics essay started coming around, around 2013, 2014.

Rylee Porter [02:50:02] Okay, perfect. That makes the timeline make sense. And then, like I told you, I read the CES letter. Is it CS or ces? It is. Okay, question myself while I'm there, but read that for me. It was in 2017, and I remember reading it and thinking that I, like, at least knew most of it. Some of it was new information. But it was after reading that, I know that that's, like, a really integral part of a lot of people's faith transitions. It was after that that I decided I wanted to remove my records. I think that there's a website to do it now. But, like, I had. I wrote a Letter. I addressed it to church headquarters. I sent it off again. I'm not living at home. So this is kind of an interesting story because they contact your bishop in, like, the last known ward that they know that you participate, participated in, in case, I guess, you have to have some sort of, like, exit interview. So they sent that notification or that letter to my family's home ward because that was the last place they had, like, my records touch place on somewhere. So the story goes that, you know, the bishop came to my dad and was like, hey, need to get in touch with Riley. You know, and my dad, at least was, like, protective of me enough that he's like, I don't think she wants to get in touch with you. Like, what. What's this about? You know, what's this concerning? And he's like, well, no, I really need to speak to Riley. It's important that I speak to Riley. And my dad's like, well, whatever. You just tell me what you've got to say, and then I'll pass it along. And he was like, she's asked to get her records removed. And all I remember is I was in Southern Utah, rock climbing in Moab. So I was having, like, a really, really good experience that was, like, where I felt at my fullest and most alive and free and everything else. That I got a call from my dad. And at this point, calls from my dad start to be, like, triggering events, because it's usually, like, high emotion, emotionally and cognitively demanding, high energy. We're debating a lot. Elevated. There's yelling. We're yelling at each other. So I see a call from my dad, and I'm like, but not answering is not an option.

JoCee Porter [02:52:09] Just keep calling.

Rylee Porter [02:52:10] Yeah, not answering is not an option. So I answered the phone. I'm like, hey, dad, what's up? You know, I can't really talk right now. Did you get your records removed?

Margi Dehlin [02:52:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:22] That means resigning from the church, basically.

Rylee Porter [02:52:25] Okay. And I was like, yeah, how'd you know? You know, because I didn't tell my parents. I didn't notify anyone. And he was like, well, the bishop told me. And I remember being so mad at. Because, I mean, I was an adult. I was not a minor. And that felt like such a betrayal of my personal privacy. And also, it caused a lot of, like, problems in my. Because my dad was crying on the phone. He was crying. He's like, I just. I can't believe that you hated your upbringing so much and that you hate us so much. Like, I know that there's Problems like Riley. But like I cannot believe that you would want to cut yourself off from all of this. Did you hate me as a former father? It became so over personalized. Right. Like my turning away from Mormonism. I think in a lot of my parents understanding was like me rejecting them was being critical of my upbringing was. And like it took a lot of years and a lot of constructive conversations to like at least in some way separate those two entities. No, I loved you. I loved my faith tradition growing up. I loved, loved being a Mormon. It's not true for me anymore, Dad. I can't, I can't. I can't do it. I don't want to do it. And so that was really, really hard because it broke his heart and he took it personally and he took. And I think because there are social pressures as a Mormon family that all of your kids are stay within the flock and it's a failing on parents if you've left. And. And so he took that extraordinarily personally. And. And this is one last story that I want to share 10 kind of to make this point and then I want to hear more from Josie. I've talked myself to death but this is, this is where I started to recognize that like there were family members who were going to get it and who were going to understand because I mean Josie and I weren't frankly quite talking at the time. We had a lot of, we had a lot of problems.

JoCee Porter [02:54:16] We were not friends.

Rylee Porter [02:54:17] Yeah, we were not friends. We were not friends. So I was back at home. My parents have this beautiful back patio that has an upper level deck. At this point Josie had start. This is kind of years later. I mean this is many, many years later. I'm jumping into the future a little bit. Josie had started not going to church, not attending a little bit. Well, my brother who again to like kind of reinforce and, or unless this part of the story wasn't told. He's a true believing member. He served a mission in Armenia. He's never left the church. My brother is safely in. My dad is the most devote orthodox member of our family. You know, and so I'm on the downstairs patio. They don't know that I'm there. My dad and my brother are openly and candidly talking to each other and they don't know that I can hear the conversation. I'm eavesdropping quite frankly. But I kind of want to hear what they have to say because they're talking about me and they're talking about Mormonism and my dad was Saying to my brother, I just don't know why, like, for him, me removing my records was an act of rebellion. It was an act of acting out. And it was like, I just, I cannot believe that Riley felt like she had to do this thing. You know, she's really cut herself off because if she wants to come back, she's made it that path a lot harder on herself. She's going to have to be re baptized. She's going to have to go through these initiation rites to come back into the fellowship. I don't even know what that language is called. And it was my brother who, remember, is like six years younger than me. So like he was in his late teens. I think this was before the mission, quite frankly. And it was my young brother who was really wise and was like, well, dad, at least she had the integrity to live what she believed. We're surrounded by these Mormons who go through the motions so that there'll be social acceptance. And like, Riley took the road less traveled. And like, maybe that's something to be celebrated because she displayed a lot of integrity by leaving. And like, that was such a balm to my soul at the time because, like, people don't talk about you like you have integrity or that you, you were strong or moral or courageous to leave. And that was my younger brother.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:39] Yeah. Can I say something really quick? In your story and as you're kind of talking, there's so many things that I see around, you know, what it means to be branded a black sheep and how oftentimes there's like such this negative, particularly I think, when within systems, right, where they're trying to basically control you. It's a way to sort of shame you into kind of coming back. But really, most black sheep are system disruptors. That's what they are. They see things that are going on either in family systems or larger systems, and they speak to those and they try to make a difference. And when they don't, they use some means, right, to cry for help, to cope with it, to, you know, name your thing. And so I just wanted to acknowledge that. I also wanted to just note, I think the part in your story that just so moves me is this idea that you are raised in this church system, right? But then you have a family system that's slightly differentiated, I see, from the church system in that it says things like speak truth to power and you grow up hearing this critical thinking.

John Dehlin [02:57:48] Grow up?

Margi Dehlin [02:57:48] Yes, you grow up and you're raised to do this. You're reading books and you're you know, and. And you're having these conversations, and at every turn, it seems like you're being supported to have this brain and to use it or that your family would

John Dehlin [02:58:04] be able to cope with this system better because they're critical thinkers who value reading, who value challenging authority. Anyway, keep going.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:14] I think the interesting thing is. And we relate to this because we had children and raised them to do much the same thing and had all of them at some point turn to us as well and say, well, your authority. Your authority. And guess what? I see issues with you. And I think what I see is you're exactly what he raised you to be. And in the end, it's like this. It almost had to come to this because the way you describe him as a young girl, and even now, it's like he's the sun in the sky guy. He's like this great entity. Right. And isn't it, you know, it had to, on some level, come to this. It was inevitable. And I feel the same almost with our kids that oftentimes, yes. In your teen years, here you are, and you get to this place where you're. You are literally, you know, differentiating with a church system, with this system that is costing you, that is not resonating, and it's costing you a great deal. Right. But it's a whole other thing to confront a family system that you are dependent on and to speak to it and to suffer, like, to truly suffer because of speaking to it. You know, that's really something that I think is very courageous, and it reminds me very Mary Oliver, of you, inevitably, psychologically, clearly, you came to a place where it was like you had to save yourself.

Rylee Porter [02:59:48] Breaking point.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:49] Like, I have to save myself, even if it means for a time I'm going to have to cut off the system that at points in my life were life giving. What is life giving now is that I have to cut off from it. And I think that's so relatable and so important and so courageous.

Rylee Porter [03:00:11] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:00:13] But that's beautiful, Margaret.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:14] Yeah, we're not done. I mean, at this moment.

JoCee Porter [03:00:16] Yeah. Amen. That was great.

John Dehlin [03:00:19] But, yeah, that's. That's brilliantly put. But you're not reward in the moment. You're not rewarded.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:25] You're.

John Dehlin [03:00:26] You're.

Rylee Porter [03:00:26] You're suffering cost.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:27] She's suffering cost.

John Dehlin [03:00:29] You're treated as a black sheep. You're treated as unfaithful. You're treated as betraying your church and your faith and your heritage and insulting your family's upbringing.

Rylee Porter [03:00:41] And your family.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:42] And you're given narratives about yourself that aren't true, that you're giving identities about you and your character.

Rylee Porter [03:00:49] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:50] And this is not to back on your parents.

Rylee Porter [03:00:53] No. I mean, I think that we've sung their praises. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:56] So go ahead.

Rylee Porter [03:00:57] But people are people. Right? People are like fully formed like that. Nothing's neat and tidy and imperfect like every narrative. Like people are layered and interesting and

JoCee Porter [03:01:09] complex and that's what makes life beautiful, honestly.

Rylee Porter [03:01:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:12] But also there's that saying that it takes a toxic system or a church sometimes to make good people do bad things, bad ways.

Rylee Porter [03:01:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:22] Not to blame that the church has good. Like, not to just say the church is the source of all badness. I don't believe that either. But in this sense, what I was going to ask is following on Margi's beautiful summary and question. Like, if your parents valued reading and critical thinking and defying authority, what kept you from those high school years and early college years to just sit down with your dad and say, look, dad, let's talk about Fanny Alger. Let's talk about Joseph's polygamy and 14 year old girls and mother daughter pairs. Let's talk about the destruction of the Navajo Expositor and the First Amendment. Let's talk about the money and Ensign Peak and let's talk about the racism and the slavery and it's not working for me and the misogyny and. And how do we maintain the father daughter relationship and the family system strength and the support. But. But the church isn't working for me and it's clear that. That there are real reasons why it's not working. How do we work this out so that you can still believe whatever you believe and by the way, stay the good graces of your employer. But I can differentiate. But I don't need to feel like I need to cut myself off from my family and I don't feel cut off from you or judged as a black sheep. Like, what kept that type of quality connected conversation from being possible? You know what I mean?

Rylee's Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

Rylee Porter [03:02:51] Well, yeah, because there's. Because first off, like everything that I brought to my dad, especially as it became like more problematic in a historical sense and not even like. And as the historicity became more and more modern. Right. You know, it was like, well, Boyd K. Packer said this and that was, you know. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [03:03:12] As.

John Dehlin [03:03:13] Are you saying your dad started doing the apologetic party line in response?

Rylee Porter [03:03:17] I got the apologetic version. So two, I want to answer this question twofold. One is that we would start talking about, like, truth claims. And there was no way as much as the first off the conversations happened. And I am grateful and want to hold space that my dad didn't just shut down those conversations. Because I know that there's a lot of, like, orthodox Mormon parents who cannot even come to the table, who cannot even have the discussion with you and will not agree to have a fleet. But again, how do you turn it off? My parents have always treated us like these intellectual equals. They've always talked to us, you know, like we had something important to contribute or whatever. We were always treated as these intellectual equals. So there was a be an ability to come to the table and. And I wanted to talk about specific things that happen in the church. But there's no satisfying way to do that where it doesn't become personalized. Because my dad can talk about the problems with the church from a very apologetic slant, though that's where we started to kind of not see each other head to head, you know, is because like one of his favorite books, again, like I said, gospel topic essays were like everywhere. Well, that has a really apologetic slant to it. And, you know, then my dad would we talk about Joseph, for example. And he's like, well, I love the book Rough Stone Rolling. And I was like, why don't. Why not go to the primary source of no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody? Why do I need to read the apologetic interpretation? And also, why are we not celebrating feminist historians? You know, like, I mean, why. Why do I have to read the male apologetic version of. So there's no way these conversations happened. They were challenging because the more I like, for example, I think that my brother and my dad are able to have more conversations safely about the things that they disagree with church theology and practices and culture. But because they're both safe, safely in. No one's playing defense. But because I'm the outsider now, I'm no longer safely in. He. His interactions with me are now much more defensive. And there's no way to separate the church from the family existence because the church represented the family. And being Mormon was every part of my cultural identity and my tradition and my heritage. So we don't start by having the conversations he came to the table. I'd get apologetic answers that became increasingly more frustrated or frustrating, I would say then it would become over personalized, where it's like, well, if. If you just hate the church, then I guess it's a good thing that you left. And it's like, when did this turn into why did you make it about you or us. Or can't we just talk about the church? But because the church is like all inclusive, we can't just have conversations that are like specifically isolated.

John Dehlin [03:06:24] Yeah. It's almost like in high demand religions or cults, you know, church becomes more important than family. In other words, I think in the ideal world a rational person would always say like an individual needs to be healthy. And then there's family and family is always going to come next and you always choose a family member over any other external thing. And then after family, okay, then there's religion and you know, you integrate religion into your own individual health and then into your family's well being. But the individual health is primary and then family comes next and then religion comes third. But in Mormonism, religion comes before individual health and family unity. Yes, it trumps individual health and family unity. And that's I think why it gets accused as being a cult. Because never ever should a church divide a parent from a child or a human from their own mental health and well being. Yeah, it should always be cut out if it's a matter of your own personal mental health or your family relationships.

JoCee Porter [03:07:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:34] But that's not how it works in Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses and in Scientology. And that's why it's a problem if it's Episcopalians or Unitarians. Parents aren't cutting off their kids or like over personalizing their kids interpretation. It's like, oh, oh well, Unitarianism works for me, but it sounds like it's not working for you. What's working for you? But in Mormonism that's not possible. And then if you add to the fact that your dad was employed by the church, there's that saying by Upton Sinclair. It's impossible to get a man to see a point of view when his life livelihood depends on not seeing it. Your dad was a victim of his employer in the sense that if he chooses his daughter, he's going to get fired ultimately and lose his income. And who wants to? You know that that makes it extra problematic for your dad.

Rylee Porter [03:08:23] Absolutely. I mean there's, there's two thoughts I had just, just during that that were, I mean one, when you say, you know, churches shouldn't become before. And it's all the more ironic because I was a missionary mindset person and family was the Mormon branding. That is what people knew us for is these big families. We talked about eternal marriage. That's unique to Mormonism. We talk about eternal families. At least to my understanding, that was unique. To Mormonism. So isn't it all the more ironic that Mormonism permeates and comes in between family relationships when it's supposed to be all about the family in Mormonism? So it's all the more ironic and hurtful in a lot of ways. And then secondly, I'm starting to understand more and more. I mean, there's a reason why the worst thing that you can be, at least to my understanding, I'll speak from my experience, there's a reason why an apostate is the worst thing that you can be is because if you were in and you know the rights and you know the language and you know the theology and you know the history, and then you start speaking out against it. What is more threatening to a conformist organization if you were a member who's speaking out against the organization that you're a member of? I mean, no wonder people who leave the church, their credibility is undermined. They're painted as a bad person. They absolutely character assassinate their ethos so that I don't have to agree with anything that you're saying because I can dismiss you on the pretense of you're a bad person. I don't have to listen to what you're saying. You're a bad person anyways.

John Dehlin [03:10:25] But it's extra hard when it's a parent. And again, I'm going to make the point. Systems, not people. By all reports, your dad's one of the most kindest, loving, smart, and you would even say that.

JoCee Porter [03:10:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:36] So we're not dissing on your dad. We are reflecting on the impact of a high demand religion on parent child relationships. When a kid decides not to choose the Mormon way. That's what we're commenting on. Not on Jeff Porter's parenting, you know, performance. Yeah, right.

Rylee Porter [03:10:57] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:10:58] Yeah. Yeah, right.

JoCee Porter [03:11:00] Isn't Riley so well spoken? I mean, I know I reached out to you, John, to be on Mormon stories, but her story is the one that needs to be heard and shared. So I'm glad that.

Rylee Porter [03:11:09] I was just thinking, can we transition to Josie's story?

John Dehlin [03:11:12] So I want to do this. It's.

Rylee Porter [03:11:14] We're.

John Dehlin [03:11:14] We're over 23 hours in.

Rylee Porter [03:11:15] Are we really?

JoCee Porter [03:11:16] Oh, my goodness.

Rylee Porter [03:11:18] I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [03:11:19] And I don't, and I don't want. I want to give Riley a chance to tell her own story.

Rylee Porter [03:11:25] Josie.

John Dehlin [03:11:26] Sorry. I want to give Josie a chance to tell her own story.

JoCee Porter [03:11:28] Me too.

John Dehlin [03:11:29] So what I want to do is call an audible and do a little bit of a change, which is maybe we're going to have three parts and I don't know how we're going to do this with time, but maybe part two is going to be Josie's story, and then part three can be kind of the inside and peak reflections.

Rylee Porter [03:11:44] Yeah. Because that's where the system becomes a problem in my mind. Even more so in my mind.

John Dehlin [03:11:50] But I also don't want to now feel like we have to rush Josie's story so really quickly before we end this part, which ends up being kind of your story. Riley.

Rylee Porter [03:12:02] Sorry that was so long winded. Oh, my gosh. It's the first time I've talked about this ever, ever, ever, outside of Please don't.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:11] Please don't do that.

John Dehlin [03:12:12] You kind of weirdly Mormons talk about pioneers. You were a pioneer in your family, and to be a pioneer is to face the frontier, to face the arrows and the elements and the adversity, and to leave the safety of shelter. And weirdly, you came out of orthodox Mormonism as a pioneer and you face the psychological and social elements to make the sacrifices to lead the way.

Rylee Porter [03:12:40] Yeah, you guys have been so gracious. You got like,

John Dehlin [03:12:45] yeah, what are you

Rylee Porter [03:12:46] feeling like, overwhelmed, you know? Cause you. There's not a lot of validation for the path that I took. And to hear you guys so gracious, who were heroes in my own right, once I discovered that there was like a community of. Of post Mormons or whatever, is the first time I stopped feeling so isolated and alone is like when I found Mormon Stories podcast. So to hear you guys who have been, you know, kind of heroes in my mind say that, I can't tell you how meaningful it is. So, yeah, thank. Thank you. So incredibly gracious. Puts me in a really nice light, I guess.

John Dehlin [03:13:26] Well, it's not to say that I'm sure you've been mistaken mistakes as we all do, but once Thomas McConkey, before he became a big deal within progressive Mormonism, he met me and Logan at a Starbucks and he told me this, quote, a cult is any organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact. There was. You were. There was no way for you to get out with any dignity.

Rylee Porter [03:13:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:51] You were going to be maligned and gossiped about and devalued. But what's ironic is for doing the courageous thing.

Rylee Porter [03:14:02] Thanks, guys.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:04] Yeah. We honor you.

JoCee Porter [03:14:07] Thank you. Really. You loved the way. I'm so glad I'm not the oldest. What you did was incredible and it paved a way for me. So I do thank you for that.

John Dehlin [03:14:20] So before we END. Josie, I just wanted to give you a chance to reflect on, on Riley's story and how you were seeing it as a younger kid. We're going to come to your story.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:33] We can't wait to say, to add your perspective to Riley's story.

JoCee Porter [03:14:39] And this is honestly like a different narrative than I was given. Right. Like I didn't see Riley's side. I saw the side where she was the bad person and in my mind she was the bad person. Right. She caused a lot of, a lot of, of harm. Right. And to like be like Frank, she took a lot of my parents time and energy. Right. And so I hated her for that. Hated her. And, and so I didn't see the struggles that this teenager was going through and didn't see the struggles that like this person that was wounded just needed help. Right. And I just saw her as kind of like competition for parents love maybe or like troublemaker.

Rylee Porter [03:15:13] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [03:15:14] Or like getting in the way and made my friends view me differently. And, and, and I. So yeah. It's been eye openening to hear it from your perspective because that's not the perspective I was given. I was given. I was part of the problem, frankly. Part of the problem. And so I'm sorry for that.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:32] You were a kid.

Rylee Porter [03:15:33] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [03:15:33] I could have known you better

Rylee Porter [03:15:37] for both of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JoCee Porter [03:15:40] But sorry, did I answer that? Beautiful. Anything.

John Dehlin [03:15:45] Well, I'm so sorry. Like Margi and I are also emotionally vibing with a lot of what you're saying because even though we were apostates in the church's eyes and we got excommunicated, but we thought we were progressive and liberal and edgy parents, we've had to listen to how our parenting, even as what we thought were woke progressive, liberal, tolerant parents, we found out from our kids that we did a lot of harm and we caused a lot of damage to them when we thought we were the ideal parents. So we're, we're. I don't know, I don't mean to

Rylee Porter [03:16:21] speak for you or we would say

Margi Dehlin [03:16:23] effortful parents maybe not ideal.

John Dehlin [03:16:25] No, we thought we were the ideal parents. I did.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:29] I thought we were the ideal parent. I certainly thought you were the ideal parent and I'm not saying you were amazing but we didn't give our kids what our kids needed in many ways even though we were doing our best.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:43] That's right. And we've had to have a journey now where in recognizing especially with our younger two, our older two, we were much less able to recognize this. But that, that Thing that we gave to them, that thing that we wanted, which was question authority. Right. We want you to connect with yourself and when needed, question authority would lead to us. And now when they. And they came and they reckoned as young adults and came back at us with things, and it took a minute. It took a minute to actually, you know, reframe ourselves, to say, look at you. You know, look at you and let me hear you as a different person, as a separate entity from myself and let me really absorb what you're saying and take it and acknowledge it and ask, what can I do? I am so, so sorry. What can we do to repair and how do we move forward? But that flip is something that we have experienced. So much so that with, I feel like our younger two, we were able to, in the moment, in those teen years when there was pushback, to say, look at you go, this is healthy. This is healthy for you. And you should be spotlighting us right now, you know?

John Dehlin [03:17:55] Yeah. And we're sorry.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:56] And we're sorry.

John Dehlin [03:17:57] We've had to tell our kids. We're so sorry for the ways we hurt you. And in that sense, I don't know if Jeff Porter's or your mom, if Roxanne is ever going to watch this, but if they are part of what I'm saying here, what Margi are saying, what Margi and I are both saying here is we hurt our kids too. It's. I don't know that you can parent without hurting your kids. So this is not a judgment on the Porter parents. This is a. This is also just a recognition of the humanity, of how difficult high demand religions are, how difficult parenting is, how difficult the life experience is. And it's really all about just telling our stories, telling our truth, learning and understanding, listening, and then trying to do better. I hope that's how I hope Jeff gives and Roxanne give this a chance to understand. That's the spirit of this whole conversation. Because we're all. If you're a parent, you're going to hurt your kids, you know, and you're going to do your best.

JoCee Porter [03:18:56] Right, Right, right.

Rylee Porter [03:18:58] It honestly sounds like the hardest thing. I mean, you know, my dad will always say, when you're a parent, you'll understand. You'll understand. This is the hardest thing I've ever done. You know, there's no handbook, there's no rule book, there's no. And I gave. I threw him a curve ball. I don't think he was ever anticipating. And I was the firstborn and everything's Kind of like trial and error on the firstborn a little bit. But yeah, yeah. It's the humanity. I like that. The humanity. Because these are imperfect people trying to form relationships. And at the end of the day, you've got to live your truth. And we all deserve this space as individuals to authentically live that truth, whether it's in the church or also outside

John Dehlin [03:19:41] of the church, but also not to lose the Mormon element. It's this beautiful Mormon social structure and theology and system and this toxic and damaging and abusive Mormon culture and system. It's both.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:55] It is both.

John Dehlin [03:19:56] It's beauty and it's abusive and it's both. Right.

Rylee Porter [03:20:00] It's a brownie with poop in the middle.

John Dehlin [03:20:03] Brownie with poop in the middle. And you eat around the poop. To be Mormon is to eat the brownie around the poop and to try and have as little poop as possible.

JoCee Porter [03:20:13] I hope we end here.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:14] We started with this piece outside. And the brownie tends to inevitably run out.

Rylee Porter [03:20:19] So at some point you're looking at your eye to eye with the.

John Dehlin [03:20:26] Well, Riley, thank you so much for your vulnerability.

JoCee Porter [03:20:29] There are going to be people that

John Dehlin [03:20:30] are like, Riley talked the whole time and Josie didn't get any. Like, don't send those.

Rylee Porter [03:20:34] I'm one of those people. Those people are mean.

John Dehlin [03:20:36] Don't send them those comments. Riley needed to tell her story. This is the only place. And. And her first chance of doing it.

JoCee Porter [03:20:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:45] And we're going to give.

Rylee Porter [03:20:46] And by the way, you can skip exactly to circle back. You can always go to part two.

John Dehlin [03:20:53] Well, thank you for your vulnerability. I know there's going to be people that connect to the story. Black sheep. Maybe part one should be growing up as. As you know, becoming the black sheep in your Mormon family.

Rylee Porter [03:21:04] Becoming the black sheep.

JoCee Porter [03:21:05] That's a good one.

Rylee Porter [03:21:07] Taking on the man.

John Dehlin [03:21:09] Put black sheep in quotes. Right?

Rylee Porter [03:21:11] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:21:12] But thank you for your vulnerability and your honesty. And frankly, thank you, Porter parents Jeff and Roxanne, for allowing your daughters to feel comfortable telling their truth, even though you would worry that it could impact your reputation and even your employment. I got a sense that there was a family powwow. A powwow. And there's some form of familial consent, not necessarily endorsement, but like support of this open dialogue. And I just want to thank Jeff and Roxanne Porter for their part in making this vulnerability possible.

Rylee Porter [03:21:55] Amen.

JoCee Porter [03:21:56] Right, right. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:21:59] Okay, so we'll come right back for part two, which will be being Nephi.

Rylee Porter [03:22:04] Yes, Nephi is telling me being Nephi to.

JoCee Porter [03:22:09] Yes.

Rylee Porter [03:22:09] I love that.

John Dehlin [03:22:10] Dealing with Laman as Nephi in a

Margi Dehlin [03:22:13] Mormon family and all the stress that that entails.

John Dehlin [03:22:16] It's very stressful. The curse of being Nephi in a Mormon family. The Josie Porter story.

JoCee Porter [03:22:25] Yes.

Rylee Porter [03:22:27] Oh, my God, that's so satisfying.

JoCee Porter [03:22:28] That's amazing.

John Dehlin [03:22:30] And then we'll end with the Ensign Peak discussion, right? All right.

JoCee Porter [03:22:35] Looking forward.

John Dehlin [03:22:35] And obviously the human story is more important than the Ensign Peak story anyway, right?

Rylee Porter [03:22:39] It's all humans. Yeah, it's all human babies.

John Dehlin [03:22:42] Don't go away. We're coming right back with the Josie Porter story. And then we'll come back with the discussion about growing up the children of an Ensign Peak executive. Thanks for joining us, Margi. You're always brilliant. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:56] Right back at you.

John Dehlin [03:22:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:57] Love you.

John Dehlin [03:22:58] And thanks everyone who joined us today on Mormon Stories to make this possible. Don't go away. Come right back for part two. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. See you soon.

JoCee's Mormon Story Begins

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1775

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 5, 2023, and we are here in part two of our interview with Riley and Josie Porter. Hi, guys.

Rylee Porter [00:00:15] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] We just finished lunch. Riley and Josie Porter reached out to me after David Nielsen's 60 Minutes interview because the topic du jour of the past month or two has been Ensign Peak, The Mormon Church's 150 plus billion dollar aggregation of assets under the Ensign Peak and the Security and Exchange Commission's recent ruling declaring that the Mormon Church has been intentionally deceitful in its filings of documents related to its holdings, with the church now acknowledging that it was afraid that if the members knew how rich the Mormon Church was, then they might stop paying tithing, which is all problematic. Anyway. David Nielsen goes on 60 Minutes, tells his story as the Ensign Peak whistleblower. And then Riley and Josie Porter reach out to me and say, hey, we grew up connected to kind of Wall street white collar Mormon stockbroker elites in New Jersey. And by the way, our dad, Jeff Porter works for Ensign Peak and has for a long time and we would love to share our perspective. So we spent part one speaking mostly to Riley about her experience as sort of the black sheep, and I use that term in air quotes, sort of feeling like she was the black sheep in her Mormon family that spent a lot of time in New Jersey and traveling around the US but moving to Utah in kind of during her high school years in North Ogden. And we ended part one with Riley talking about her eventual departure from the Mormon Church and just how that affected her relationship with her parents and just her own life. And I felt like it was a really beautiful ending where we kind of rehabilitated this narrative that she was a black sheep. And instead, in many ways she was a pioneer, and in many ways she was heroic, standing up for courage. Josie grew up feeling like she was kind of Nephi in a way to Riley's layman in their Mormon family. So that's going to be part two. If you haven't listened to Riley's story, you should pause, go back and watch and listen to that and then come back for Josie's story in part two. But that's what we're in store for. And then we hope to still have time for part three, which where both Riley and Josie are going to be talking about their insights and experiences, having a dad who has worked for and continues to work for Ensign Peak and any thoughts that they have. So it's kind of one of those epic family Mormon stories. And so, Josie, we're excited for your Mormon story now.

JoCee Porter [00:03:06] Thank you. Thank you. And I'm again, so good to be here. Yeah. No, I thought I was Nephi. I really did. And I thought Riley was so bad. She was layman, and Lemuel, like, combined. Like, that's how bad of a black sheep she was. So do you want me to just start with Bean and Yitzha?

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Yeah, let's start. Where does your. Let's go back kind of. How do you conceptualize your Mormon story beginning?

JoCee Porter [00:03:28] Yeah, well, I told the story previously how, like, I met, like, President Hinckley and had a great time in New Jersey as. As this Mormon. And it was all encompassing in my life up until this point. Like, Mormonism was my life. They were my friends. And we were kind of switching schools because you switch schools a little bit more often back eas. So I went to different pre K and different. They have a first and second grade that's a different, distinct school. And then third and fourth grade is a distinct school. So you switch schools a lot, and they're in different areas. So my friends were my classmates, my primary classmates. And so Mormonism was who I related to and kind of was who I related to entire growing up. So when I came to Utah, I really thought it was like, a, you know, Laman and Lemuel Nephi situation. Like, my dad, like, had this inspiration to come back to Utah, and, like, we were, like, going back to the chosen land as, like, you know, Lehi's dream and going to do this great thing. And I was obviously the star of the story. So I'm Nephi. My brother's Sam, Like, Samuel. Right. That's the younger brother's name. That's our little brother. And so that's how I envisioned that.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] And let me ask you, so as far as Riley's acting out within your family context for you, did that start back east, or did that mostly come on here from your vantage point?

JoCee Porter [00:04:53] Right, That's a good point. It didn't start back East, I don't think at all. It definitely started in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] But you maybe just felt the most devout of your family member of your siblings.

JoCee Porter [00:05:04] The most important, definitely. I felt like most important.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] Are you saying Nephi was second?

Rylee Porter [00:05:11] I was the favorite.

JoCee Porter [00:05:12] I'm not gonna lie. Okay. Because Nephi is the favorite. He's the middle. I felt that. But, like, my dad gave me Oreos growing up. He didn't agree with my siblings Oreos growing up. So clearly I was the favorite child. And that was very important to me, that I felt.

Rylee Porter [00:05:26] Very important.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Maybe every Mormon kid thinks they're Nephi probably.

JoCee Porter [00:05:30] I hope so. They should. Everyone should feel like the hero, but no looking back. And I kind of relate the Nephi story that didn't become into my vocabulary until like Raleigh did start acting out. And that was kind of older when I was like 14, 15 and looked at it. But moving to Utah was. Was really tough for a lot of reasons. When I kind of mentioned how like all of us were kind of bullied a little bit for being outcasts. But to. My dad was there, right? And all growing up, he was not there. And like, I don't want to say that like he was absent because he wasn't. He was just working so hard that like we just didn't see him. You know, he was. Went to work before he got up, he was gone after we went to. He came back after we went to bed, you know. So that's just the life we live. Like to just exemplify how hard he was working. I was born on a Saturday and my parents anniversary, the best anniversary present they ever got was my birth, right? Like this is very lucky for them. And my dad wasn't there, right. He like went back to work the day I was born on his anniversary on a Saturday. That's just how hard he was working, right? But he still played a really big role in my life. But so when we came to Utah, my dad didn't have a job, right. For the first four months because he was just in between positions. And so he was all of a sudden there. And I hated that. I did not want my dad to be around. It was too little too late at that point, you know, like, it's like I don't. I'm like 10, 11, I don't want to hang out with dad, you know, like he was there and I didn't want him there. And that was kind of a tough situation. But then I kind of got angry about it because he was there all the time. He was very involved in a very active father figure at that, at that time, I think kind of making up for like lost opportunity in the New Jersey years. And then Riley started acting out and then like I lost his like attention, I suppose, and then hated Riley for it, you know, because like he was so focused on her. I was like, well like Riley's acting out and like now you get all. She gets all the attention and that's unfair to me. And so that's kind of how I envision that that's when the Laman Lemuel story kind of like where I started like telling it, because it's not like this. I didn't come up with it today. You know, I've told that story many times. I was like, you were the Laman Lemuel, I was the Nephi.

Rylee Porter [00:07:39] First time I heard it, I think.

JoCee Porter [00:07:40] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:07:40] Well, which is perfect.

JoCee Porter [00:07:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] How Mormony was your home in terms of like scripture study and family prayer?

Rylee Porter [00:07:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] Family home evening and all that stuff.

JoCee Porter [00:07:52] Right. Very, very Mormon in a lot of sense. I mean, Riley kind of started checking out at this time, but I didn't. Right. And I. And neither did my bro. So we would kind of do things very active as a family, as an active family does. We would do family home evenings. And we did it in New Jersey. We did it in Utah, in fact, when my dad was living in New Jersey while we were still in Utah, every morning before my dad's work. So at like 6am we would get on a phone call and we would read scriptures together as a family, like long distance. And we did this every single morning. Were you part of this? So me and my brother and my mom did this every single morning for eight months while my dad was gone. And so like very pretty devout for the most part. And like there was like no desire to rebel. I mean, obviously we didn't fit in perfectly, but like it was still like the chosen people, these are the people I want to fit in. I'm young enough to like want to be this and to fit in and be this Utah Mormon. And I kind of became it in a lot of ways.

Rylee Porter [00:08:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] So the culture shock that Riley talked about of like the, the brash, fast talking, intellectual Eastern culture that she kind of felt then. Culture shock coming into Utah. Did you experience similar culture shock or not as much?

Rylee Porter [00:09:18] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:09:18] I. I think I did a little bit. Like, I think I was just like, like I, Yes, I was angry. I was angry about moving to Utah. I was angry that people weren't who they said that they were. And like I couldn't fully artic. I was angry about it or like what the cause was. But yeah, I think the correct term would be culture shock. That people didn't fit in, they didn't accept me and like they were mean, if that makes sense. And that's probably what I like internalized the most as like a 11 year old kid was just, I felt like people were meaner than they were in, in New York. Right. Like, which is a funny thing to say. Because like New York's not known for being kind. So like they just felt meaner and so. But I quickly like made myself fit in, right? And so like I was doing the church things, right. I was looking how I needed to look to fit in. And I did fit in for the most part. I participated in Young Women's at that point because I started Young Women's in Utah and fully participated to the full extent. Was there volunteering, but some of it didn't sit right with me. And I think that's because like we were encouraged to like, I saw that like there was like an otherness. I saw that people from other religions weren't appreciated or I saw that like they were talked down to or like I even saw people that like would hate Mormons. And that was kind of like weird because I was like, well, aren't you like, you go to church, but like you're talking so badly about it. Like, this is very strange. I'm not sure what's going on. So it was a very confusing time, to say the least.

Rylee Porter [00:10:45] Self effacing Mormonism. I totally get what you're saying. Yeah. Or you didn't wear it like a badge of honor. It was like kind of.

Rylee Porter [00:10:54] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:10:54] Or you'd pretend to not be Mormon. I remember, like that would be like, oh, you're Mormon. And you'd be like, no, I'm not. Or like, well, some I would never say that. But like other people would say that and I'd be like, why are you pretending not to be this thing? And then it's like, oh, like it made sense looking back. But I didn't get at the time, I was just very confused because this was not how I was raised as a Mormon. I was raised a different way. And to love my religion, to embellish it on all aspects of my personality and of myself, but to also love people like, you look different than me and who acted different and to not exclude people.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] But okay, so how does your, how did you cope and process and respond to that culture shock?

Rylee Porter [00:11:38] Right?

JoCee Porter [00:11:39] Well, I quickly blended in, right. So like what?

John Dehlin [00:11:41] I assimilated.

JoCee Porter [00:11:42] I assimilated and I became mean, right? I became the mean Mormon that they were. Right. Like, and I became clicky and I became exactly what I didn't like because I wanted to fit in so bad. And again, this is like 11 12, but I think I was a mean 11, 12, 13, 14, maybe even up to like 17 year old. Just like fitting in and just being like elitist. This is what I need to do to Fit in. I walk the walk, I talk the talk. I can say the testimony the correct way. But it still didn't feel perfectly natural to me because, like, I was still an outsider in a lot of ways. Like, I think there was like, people didn't fully accept me as, as being this Mormon, even though I wanted to

Rylee Porter [00:12:26] be so bad, you know, and maybe it felt inauthentic.

JoCee Porter [00:12:31] Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to explain, but yeah. Complex feelings. Complex feelings.

Rylee Porter [00:12:38] But yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:12:39] So I guess like in like informative years. And so I did the things. I checked the boxes. I was the only one that graduated seminary. I got my patriarchal blessing, right. I had the, had the callings, right, That I participated in. But I presidency class, like, right, right. Like beehive my maid and laurels, right? Like, and I went to girls camp and I shamed my sister for not being Mormon. Like, everything I thought I needed to do to fit in. But then in some ways I didn't, right? Because like, as a natural teenager, you like, I guess, become a Jack Mormon, right? So I eventually became a Jack Mormon. Natural, just like curiosity about different things and so things. And also I was always kind of ignorant, encouraged to question authority, right? So, like, I would like question things and be like, this isn't right. This isn't. Show me the scripture that tells me to hate you. You know, like just kind of frustration in a lot of ways. And so I became like a Jack Mormon. Just kind of confused, but still wanted to finish so bad.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] What do you mean? Like, I think a Jack Mormon is someone who drinks beer and who.

JoCee Porter [00:13:38] Yeah, so I definitely wasn't like that. I guess, like, I was like, I, I don't know. I, you know, had a boyfriend in high school and my boyfriend in high school did not. He wasn't Mormon. And that was a big deal to like have this non Mormon high school boyfriend. In fact, it was such a big deal that like my friend group, they stopped being my friends. It was like they legit went out of their way and they stopped being my friends. And then I asked them about it because, you know, you confront these things. I'm like, what? And they're like, we just think that you're growing apart and you're doing things we don't believe in. Right? And they said this and they now have reached out and apologized at this point. But like, they said that and they disowned me the moment I had a non Mormon boyfriend.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Those non Mormon boyfriend.

JoCee Porter [00:14:14] It was a non Mormon boyfriend, which, you know, and they have boyfriends too. They were just Mormon. Like, that was like, the sin was the non Mormon ness of the boyfriend, which is unfortunate because he was a great guy. He was a genuine gem of a human being. But because he wasn't Mormon, he didn't get the stamp of approval that should have been granted. Anyone who's just a good person should have got that stamp of approval.

Rylee Porter [00:14:39] But it sounds like you're really experiencing how thin a line there is between and how quickly you can get flipped onto being ostracized, socially ostracized. Right. How quickly that happens. How. Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] No, I don't think our kids ever learned to fit in in their Mormon high schools. Never. I don't think any of them did. All four never figured it out.

Rylee Porter [00:15:04] Impossible balancing act.

JoCee Porter [00:15:05] Right, Right. But I wanted to so bad. I really did. And I wanted people to, like, acknowledge that, like, you know, like, I, like, claim that I'm the only one that graduates seminary, because that was important to me, that I was the only one of the three kids to graduate seminary. Not because I thought that seminary was useful, but because I did the right things. I took the right steps. I was doing the right things. Look at me. Kind of situation. And so, like, and I fit into structural norms that my sister wasn't able to. And so I thrived and did pretty well in these environments while also being sad on the inside, if that kind of makes sense. I don't know. It was just like, you know, I struggled with, like, anxiety a lot growing up as a child, and so I struggled emotionally and wasn't, like, happy, but, like, I still got straight A's. Right. So, like, no one knew in a lot of sense. And I look back now and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, this was a hurt child, as maybe all children are hurt, but certainly went through, like, that progression. And then being kind of ostracized because I had this boyfriend who was such a great guy. And it was always kind of framed where it's like, you're not Mormon. This is gonna end right. You couldn't, like, fully embrace just, like, your first, which is kind of unfortunate, you know, like, you can just be so excited just being so in love and with, like, someone that, you know, you can just hang out with and have a great time with. And we were over 16, so it wasn't, like, as big of a deal as it would have been. But, yeah, there was always an end date where it's like, well, how long do you think we'll be together? It's like, well, it can't Be forever, because you're not Mormon, right? We have to break up at one point. And so this is just. It's gonna end. And I think that's kind of tragic that you couldn't experience fully your first love. And in a real way, how did

John Dehlin [00:16:43] you justify identifying with Nephi? How did you justify sort of this? And this is all like, believing Mormon rebellion in Utah is having a non Mormon boyfriend. Like, that's so insane. Right? But, like, in your mind, conceptualizing of yourself as a Nephi, how did you justify having a non Mormon, having a boyfriend at all, let alone a non Mormon boyfriend?

JoCee Porter [00:17:08] And I don't think our family was ever like, you know, like, being like, you can't date non Mormons. That was like, never the narrative that was, like, really taught.

Rylee Porter [00:17:15] It was just like, well, because we believed in inclusivity. Like, I don't think it shocked my parents at all that she had a non. It was just she was ostracized by her Mormon friends, right?

JoCee Porter [00:17:26] So how did I justify it? Like, I thought I was like. I thought I was doing the better thing, right? I was like, yeah, like, I can see above just the elite, because I have, like, I look at some guys and they're not great and they're bad people, but they're Mormon. And it's like, but I found this great person who wasn't Mormon, and I can see above what you guys will get. There probably was probably how I, like, viewed it and thought that I was more Christ. Like, exactly, exactly. Like, more proud of that, of that experience in a lot of ways. But, yeah, it wasn't accepted within my friend group at all. And definitely not accepted within the bishop once he found out. Right. It was not a happy. He wasn't into it. Right. And it was kind of always the conversation was like, well, how do you get to temple marriage? Where's the temple marriage? Not where's the happy marriage? Where's the healthy marriage? I'm not sure what I'm talking about. Marriage.

Rylee Porter [00:18:15] What age is this? I was gonna say, let's take a pause to talk about that. An adult male is asking a teenager what her marital plans are because her current high school sweetheart isn't Mormon. Is not a Mormon.

JoCee Porter [00:18:32] And the young woman leaders were like that too, right? Cause it's not like I was secretly dating this guy. It was over for over a year, maybe a year and a half. And 16, 17, those are big years. And so people knew. But yeah, I was always just like, well, you got to get married in the temple. So, like, you got to figure that out. Like, have fun now, but, like, you got to figure out the temple thing and don't ruin yourself for the temple. I know he's not Mormon. He'll be bad influence on you. You'll probably have sex at a time. But just so you know, be ready for the temple. And like, that was kind of always how it was framed by, like, all the adult leaders within the church. But not my parents. Right? My parents. You know, I don't think we're like, being like, yo have like, fully healthy exploration. But they were certainly never like, you shouldn't date him because he's not Mormon. But that's how it was for the church, for the. For the ward, for the young woman leaders, for the bishop.

Rylee Porter [00:19:22] Well, and also, how inappropriate because if, like, if my parents, who were her parents, had no problem with it, then that is totally misplaced for people to feel like they have an opinion. But if I may, I recognize how Josie internalized a lot of this messaging that she's talking about. Cause, like, she's spoke about. There was, like, a resentment between us because she was able to code switch. And, like, I couldn't do. I couldn't live inauthentically. What I felt like was living inauthentically. So it was like, right when, like, Instagram or Facebook was new and she posted a picture of the temple, and I knew she had this non Mormon boyfriend. And the caption was. And I laugh about it to this day. Do you want to tell them what the caption.

JoCee Porter [00:20:02] If this isn't your castle, then you're not my prince.

Rylee Porter [00:20:04] If this isn't your castle, you're not my prince.

JoCee Porter [00:20:07] I was like, non Mormon boyfriend. Oh, I'm sure that broke his heart.

Rylee Porter [00:20:10] So she's like, internalizing these, like, like, really conflicting messages all of the time while trying to seek validation that I feel like middle children never feel like they get. Especially when, like, I took a lot of attention. Our younger brother is, like, the only boy. And Josie's accomplishing achievement after achievement. Like, I remember she was putting her

JoCee Porter [00:20:31] report cards on the fridge to get attention. Covered the fridge. And like, all the awards I got

John Dehlin [00:20:37] that year, Classic middle child vibes.

JoCee Porter [00:20:39] Classic just wanting attention. So participated in sports, right? And I was the only one to participate in sports, which, like, my parents love sports or like, my dad especially loves sports. I was the only one that did sports in high school. I played basketball, right? And you know, my dad went to every single game, right? That's how important it was. And, like, I wanted my dad and my parents and everyone to like me so much that I did the steps. Right. And that was how I, how I did that while internalizing very complex messages.

Rylee Porter [00:21:11] Conflicting.

JoCee Porter [00:21:12] Yeah.

JoCee's Interest in Women in STEM and Tech

John Dehlin [00:21:13] So we mentioned last episode that, you know, now you work in, in tech, you're a computer programmer, you're really big into the idea of women in stem, which is science, technology, engineering and math.

Rylee Porter [00:21:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] And you've got, we should have mentioned code tech, Codepritty tech, your website and Josie Holiday on Instagram where you're sort of a public advocate for women professionals in tech specifically and in science. Right.

Rylee Porter [00:21:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] So I have to ask, growing up in a traditional Mormon household, what were you thinking about gender roles? What were you thinking about your mom being a stay at home mom, your dad being a hyper white collar professional that was like gone all the time. And like, how were you thinking about your future at the time professionally? Or were you. And I'm talking kind of these middle school years or high school years.

Rylee Porter [00:22:06] Right, right.

JoCee Porter [00:22:06] And I think I'm glad that you brought this up because I think gender roles plays like a huge part into my story where like, my sister didn't experience the gender roles in her experience growing up in New York. And that's, I felt like, was so hammered into me so much in very detrimental ways, both within my family, within the church and the broader ecosystem. Right. And so I think, like, I was always, like, knew that I would, you know, go to college, but not to get a college degree just in case my husband died. Right. That's why I was going to college. Right. And I wasn't going to college, you know, to like become the breadwinner. I was going to college to meet someone that was intellectually curious like I was, and that was so ingrained into like how I perceived the world. So like, the fact that I got into STEM is, is interesting because I don't think anyone was like, hey, you should pursue engineering. They weren't, in fact, they were like, hey, you should pursue teaching. And so my senior year of high school, I dropped out. Every other day I didn't drop out, but I did a internship. And I did the longest internship available, which is an every other day internship to do student teaching at the local elementary school because my young woman leader asked me to do that. And so I didn't go to AP classes. Right. I didn't go to like any of these complex or interesting classes. I went and I taught second grade with this, with this lovely lady in this lovely classroom and had great experiences to it. But that was not where I should have been, right. I think I wish people looked at me and was like, she's smart, you know, she deserves to be here.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] Did you. Did you have an interest in tech and STEM and science in middle and high school?

JoCee Porter [00:23:41] I think I really did. I did a Sudoku a day. My, like, entire, like, high school years, like, maybe show how, like, nerdy I am. And I still do Sudoku a day.

Rylee Porter [00:23:49] I like.

JoCee Porter [00:23:49] And. And, you know, and we grew up readers, right? I remember growing up, I wouldn't get punished by, like, grounding from friends because that wasn't a real punishment. We would get grounded from our books. Right? This is how, like, integrated into reading that we were. And reading was so such a great part of my life. And I never had any restrictions on reading. I, like, probably picked up books that I probably shouldn't have picked up, like, all through all years, because I would just read, and I love to read. So, yeah, I think I was, like, an obviously intellectually curious person, and I wish that was seen. And so I internalized a lot of messaging that I wish that I didn't. And that was really frustrating, especially because my brother, who was just a year and a half younger than me, he got that push for engineering, for, like, math being like, oh, you're so smart, you know, where Josie's so pretty, he's so smart, you know? And that was certainly the narrative that I felt like, was told by a lot of people in those gender worlds where, like, hammered into it.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] So your Mormon experience in North Ogden, Utah, was not, oh, wow, she's into math and tech. She can become a scientist or an engineer. It was. Maybe you could become a schoolteacher so that you have a backup career if your husband. If you end up getting divorced from your professional husband. Is that right?

JoCee Porter [00:25:05] Absolutely. And which is frustrating or, like, I think. And I don't think I was discouraged from, like, science and engineering stuff, but it was considered a hobby in a lot of ways. They'd be like, oh, you do Sudoku's all the time. That's cute. Instead of being like, oh, a budding engineer, you know, like, it was like, that's a cute hobby. But when you have kids and, like, when your real career comes along, you'll have to put that aside for your husband. That was absolutely what was. I felt the narrative was that I got got growing up, and. But so I did kind of, like, find things I was interested in. And so I did, like, get a few scholarships. So I went to college. And, like, again, it's not like they were like telling me not to go into engineering. But they weren't like, Josie, go into engineering. I was just kind of like, oh, I'm interested in this. I think I'm going to go into engineering. So I did.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Once you got to the U.

JoCee Porter [00:25:49] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Okay, before we jump there, let's talk about your faith development in high school.

JoCee Porter [00:25:56] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] Was your testimony pretty orthodox? Was a pretty literalistic. Did it, did it right? You know, did you have doubts and questions? Were you all in? And to what extent were you aware of Riley's sort of like disaffection from the church and even the doubts and questions she was having? And how were you processing all of that? Plus, was the distress that Riley was sort of, I don't want to say causing, but experiencing with your parents during her black sheep years? Was that visible to you? And if so, was that helping to shape your high school experience?

JoCee Porter [00:26:41] Yes, in a lot of ways. I'm so glad I was not an older child. I think being a middle child sucks, I really do. But I do not envy being the oldest child because, yeah, I saw what she went through and I knew that was not what I would go through. I knew that I would not be that person, that I did not want to be the enemy. I did not want to be the person that destroyed the family so we wouldn't have salvation. I did not want to be that because she caused so many issues. And as I didn't perceive what she was actually going through as a child, I was just like, she's not following the rules. Like, and, and that's not okay with me.

Rylee Porter [00:27:14] Josie was great at following the rules.

JoCee Porter [00:27:16] I did well at following the rules and I followed the rules and I succeeded. But I wasn't getting the attention for following the rules and that didn't feel well for me. So, yeah, so I saw she did. But so where is my testimony? So, like, I obviously was going through normal teenage curiosity kind of situations, but like, I felt like I was pretty strong in my beliefs and kind of an elitist kind of way. Right. I feel like I came from the New York narrative where it's like I knew the Book of Mormon, you know, and like we were prideful or very proud that we knew the Book of Mormon really well and that that's where our beliefs stem from. They stem from doctrine, not culture.

Rylee Porter [00:27:51] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:27:51] And so our family was quick to separate doctrine from culture and kind of dismiss the culture.

Rylee Porter [00:27:57] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:27:57] Without realizing that your 12 year old daughter is going to internalize that culture. Right. So like, we would often be like, oh, that's just culture. Ignore that. But the doctrine is this. And the doctrine is great.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] Tell me if you heard this saying that the gospel is true, but the culture isn't, or something like that.

JoCee Porter [00:28:12] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] I don't know.

JoCee Porter [00:28:14] And, like, the people are.

Rylee Porter [00:28:15] The people are.

JoCee Porter [00:28:16] The people are wrong, but the church is true kind of situation.

Rylee Porter [00:28:19] It's that people make mistakes, but the gospel is perfect.

JoCee Porter [00:28:23] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:28:23] You know, so sorry that these people make mistakes. And I think that's where also my parents, like, failed to recognize, like, how influential to. And also detrimental these cultural stories that were being told to my sister over and over and over again. Because, like, that's not what they were necessarily saying at home, you know? Right.

JoCee Porter [00:28:44] And this is, like, a frustrating because, like, I'll, like, bring this up to my family. I'll be like, I don't feel like I was encouraged to go into engineering. They're like, well, you're an engineer, so clearly someone encouraged you. And it's like, yeah, okay, well.

Rylee Porter [00:28:53] And she was supported in all of her. In all of her pursuits.

JoCee Porter [00:28:57] Like, you know, I was always supported, but I had to find them.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:29:00] Which is not how it was for my brother. They found them for my brother. Right. And I. And I. I struggled bringing Jackson into this because I know that he struggles being, like, the golden child, and that's kind of some ways that I feel. And it's not his fault to be the golden child. He's a wanderer at West Point.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] Right?

JoCee Porter [00:29:14] He's at West Point. He just barely graduated West Point, which was super. You, like, incredible, you know, like.

Rylee Porter [00:29:19] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:29:19] Good for him. Yep.

Rylee Porter [00:29:21] After the mission in Armenia.

Rylee Porter [00:29:23] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:29:23] So.

JoCee Porter [00:29:23] And he's very successful and accomplished and

Rylee Porter [00:29:25] easy to talk about. Incredibly intelligent.

JoCee Porter [00:29:28] So intelligent. And I feel like that in a lot of ways overshadowed, like, their daughter who was just as intelligent, you know,

John Dehlin [00:29:35] like you said, just to be clear, you're happy for your brother.

JoCee Porter [00:29:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:38] You're both reflective on how Mormon culture, which, by the way, is shaped by the doctrine and the theology.

JoCee Porter [00:29:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] How Mormon culture probably maybe didn't prepare both of you, but right now, you specifically, Josie, maybe to live the full potential that you otherwise could have lived.

JoCee Porter [00:29:56] Absolutely, absolutely. And, like, there's like, some pretty, like, concrete evidence of this. Right. So my brother and I are 16 months apart, and, like, he got a great act score, I think. Perfect. Right. And I got a 25 act score.

Rylee Porter [00:30:08] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:30:09] Which. Or 28. Something that's, like, fine, but, like, not anything to brag about. He got private tutors to get that Perfect ACT score.

Rylee Porter [00:30:18] Because originally his score wasn't good. Yeah, originally it was like a 27, 28 maybe. It was like, I think he just struggled in writing specifically.

JoCee Porter [00:30:27] Right, right. But they knew he was intelligent and they knew he needed to go to a good school, so they hired private tutors. A private tutor to come and, like, and train him up to get the great ACT score that he eventually got. And he's smart and should get that act score. Me, 16 months or 18 months older than he was. I didn't get that. Right. And it's like, well, why didn't you do that for your daughter when you did for your son? When they're basically a year and a half apart? Like, there should have been. If you're going to do it for one, you should do it for the other. And Jackson took the ACT in the mtc, so it was after high school. Right. So it's not like they were doing this when he was 16 and Josie was already in college. Right. They were doing this anyway. Old. Like they could have done it for me, and they didn't. And I think that's a failure on that.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] Maybe it's because in Mormonism, women are supposed to find their place in Holder, get married and become moms.

JoCee Porter [00:31:18] Right. And I don't know why it was. Maybe they thought I was dumber and just didn't need it and it'd be

Rylee Porter [00:31:23] a waste of money that they thought you were dumber.

JoCee Porter [00:31:24] Let me talk. Like, maybe they thought it was dumber. Maybe they just honestly didn't think about it and then it's like a sin of omission for just not considering it. Maybe they just internalize the messaging that Josie wasn't interested into this. Or maybe they really just followed the culture rules where it's like, she deserves to be, you know, she'll be a wife and that will make her happy and she wants to teach elementary education or something. All of those are not good reasons. Right. It shouldn't have happened.

Rylee Porter [00:31:53] And I just want to clarify. I mean, I just don't think anyone thought Josie was dumb. No one thought Josie was dumb or incapable, I guess, is the distinction.

Rylee Porter [00:32:00] But I am hearing from you a little bit of, like, a narrative that was told, or let's just say a role assignment within the family, that you were the pretty one and he was smart.

JoCee Porter [00:32:14] And I love kids. I honestly love children, and I'm really good at babysitting, and I have always kind of just been drawn to children and they kind of just assign that gender role because of that. Interest in children. Right. So it's like, oh, Josie's just gonna have 10 kids. Right. Which I think I said I was gonna have 10 kids until the age of 12, you know, and then that narrative stopped out pretty young. But, like, that. They perpetuated that. And, yeah, I think that they were like, yeah, Josie doesn't care about college or isn't interested in college because they decided that for me.

Rylee Porter [00:32:43] Yeah. What I'm hearing from you a little bit, correct me if I'm wrong, is an adaptability, some might say people pleasing, of you showing up to get your needs met, to feel seen, valued, or let's just say an attempt to. Meaning what you want me to be, I can be, right. Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes for me to kind of be seen in this moment, to feel valued. Does that seem right? Yeah. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:33:15] I think that would, like, absolutely explain it. It's like I became why I needed to be. To please people for sure. Or to look good. Yeah.

JoCee's Difficult Years and Worthiness Interviews

Rylee Porter [00:33:24] So can I ask, you mentioned sad, right, that on some level, you were doing all the things you were, you know, in sports and you were getting good grades and. But you were also sad. Can you talk a little bit about that and what you mean by that and how that showed up?

JoCee Porter [00:33:40] Yeah, I mean, I consider. I call them the dark years. And. And I did kind of talk extensively about this on Breaking Down Patriarchy, that podcast. If anyone wants the details of this by Amy McPhee, all of us, I was gonna. Amy McPhee, all of US, shout out

John Dehlin [00:33:55] to Amy McPhee, all of Us. Breaking Up Patriarchy.

JoCee Porter [00:33:57] She's incredible. And so she did. Let me share the story to talk more about these dark years. I'll give a brief explanation of. But, yeah, I consider them the dark years. So I was playing sports and, like, was doing really well. And then, like, for some reason, that wasn't working any longer. And so I quit. I up and quit just, like, randomly basketball. I was like, coach, here you go. Like, didn't think about it, and I was just like, I'm done. I am done. And I quit and I stopped. And this is kind of like when I stopped, like, going to school, you know, like, and I not, like, going to school when I stopped taking the AP classes, and instead I took, like, the easy classes, and I, like, did the elementary internship, right? Like, I, like, was like, this isn't working out. So I totally stopped. And, like, that was also when I was, like, in the midst of talking to the bishop. Right. And, like, became like, he, you know, I was Having sex. And he knew about the having sex and he. I felt very shamed for it while also wanting to be this role that I wasn't able to be in a lot of ways. So. Yeah, those are the dark years.

John Dehlin [00:34:53] Okay, wait, I don't. I'm really sorry that happened. So. So you just said you were having sex.

JoCee Porter [00:35:02] Yeah, so when I was 16, I was having sex.

John Dehlin [00:35:04] Oh.

JoCee Porter [00:35:05] Which is a shock because Riley wasn't. Which people thought she was black sheep here. Who's new? Isn't it funny? I switched a lot better. I context switched a lot better than she did, you know, better.

Rylee Porter [00:35:17] And part of Mormonism is what it looks like.

JoCee Porter [00:35:20] Right, right, right.

Rylee Porter [00:35:21] And so you can pick up that it's. It's more about what you show as opposed to.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] Yeah. So. So again, for the listeners and viewers, this whole Nephi and Layman and this whole black sheep and like, it's all bad constructs. So I use them very loosely. But I'm going to use it now and say, how does Nephi come to the point of having sex in high school in a predominantly faithful Mormon community?

JoCee Porter [00:35:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] After knowing that her older sister had caused so much distress and sadness in the family by, quote, being a bad black sheep? So take us through how that happened.

JoCee Porter [00:36:02] Right. And so very naturally, in a very loving way.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Yeah. It happens for pretty much all teens

JoCee Porter [00:36:09] with someone with a great loving boyfriend. Like a very natural progression.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] So this is with the non Mormon boyfriend.

JoCee Porter [00:36:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] Their fears came true.

JoCee Porter [00:36:18] Yeah, their fears came true.

Rylee Porter [00:36:19] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:36:19] What they were telling me to not do is exactly what I was doing.

Rylee Porter [00:36:24] Go and steady.

JoCee Porter [00:36:26] I mean, it's like Riley was openly rebellious. Right. So my rebellion as a normal teenager had to be hidden and was very hidden. So I don't think my parents might. I know. My parents didn't know.

Rylee Porter [00:36:36] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:36:37] I know that people didn't know. The bishop knew. And I knew because I was doing it and that was it. And it was so hidden in so many ways. And, like, I was not gonna be Riley and be openly rebellious. I wasn't gonna go to parties. It was. If I was, I was gonna, like, grab some gum and you would not know in the morning. Right. Like, it was. It was hidden. Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] So you would have tried alcohol, for example, in high school.

JoCee Porter [00:36:59] Oh, no, I never did. That was like an exaggeration.

Rylee Porter [00:37:02] Yeah. And I was gonna say I wasn't even really going to parties, but, you

John Dehlin [00:37:05] know, and this is not to shame you, Josie. This is just like. Isn't it weird that sometimes the truth tellers get marginalized and punished and get labeled as bad, whereas you were more. And it's a system. It's neither of you, but it's a system. You were like, kind of hiding and faking a little bit to be loved and accepted, and yet you were praised because you were able to create the impression of obedience and faithfulness. And you may have even been sincere about it and found a way to justify it. But I'm just noting the irony that Riley was the black sheep, but she was not sexually active, but she was being demonized, so to speak. You were the, quote, Nephi or the good kid, but you were sexually active and. And kind of lying and hiding about it.

JoCee Porter [00:37:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:59] Again, no shame. It's just what this toxic purity culture does to us.

JoCee Porter [00:38:03] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] And a high demand religion, you know?

JoCee Porter [00:38:06] Right, right.

Rylee Porter [00:38:07] It's.

JoCee Porter [00:38:07] It's such a good point. And like. And it was all about, like, how. How it looked. Right. Versus, like, what it actually was. And. And again, these are, like, natural things to do as a teenager in.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Yeah. In every other culture.

Rylee Porter [00:38:20] In every other culture. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] It's healthy.

JoCee Porter [00:38:22] Right, right. But. But it's not like there wasn't, like, so much internalized shame from it.

Rylee Porter [00:38:26] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:38:26] It's not like I was like, okay with it. You know, like, this caused like, some severe, like, depression where I was like, what did I just do? You know, I mean, like, go ball into the bishop and, like, read your scriptures way too much, right. To like, kind of like compensate for or become clean or, like, I would, like, write up handwritten contracts that we wouldn't do it. Again, like, things to just like, not justify putting these. Like, just like, you feel like you

Rylee Porter [00:38:50] had to earn back your salvation through like, a really tremendous repentance process.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] Okay, so you did confess to your bishop.

JoCee Porter [00:38:59] Yes. So my bishop knew right away.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Dr. Bishop?

Rylee Porter [00:39:02] No, no, it was my basketball coach.

JoCee Porter [00:39:05] And that's why I quit basketball. Right. Because, like, at one point, like, I

Rylee Porter [00:39:09] became so, like, oh, my goodness, boundaries everywhere.

Rylee Porter [00:39:13] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:39:13] So I was playing basketball and like, his daughter was my. One of my really good friends. And obviously that friendship ended when he became bishop and found out about this.

Rylee Porter [00:39:24] And.

Rylee Porter [00:39:24] Well, now obviously people wouldn't assume that your, you know, friends would isolate from you if they heard that you were going to the, you know, bishop or whatever. And a lot of what Josie was doing is like, hiding in plain sight. Right? Because if people were looking for the cultural markers that something might have been going on that was causing her stress at home and to live in this dissonance was. Well, Josie wasn't taking the sacrament. Like, we talked about that. It's like, how did mom and dad not know? Why were question. More questions? Not why were the questions being asked by the bishop in inappropriate ways, Right?

John Dehlin [00:39:57] So talk to us about those bishop conversations about your batlov chassis worthiness stuff if you want to.

JoCee Porter [00:40:03] Right? And like, they weren't like, I know some bishops are like, openly inappropriate. He was obviously, he was very inappropriate, but not like, to the point where you're like, oh, my God, like, this is very traumatic. My first sexual experience wasn't one that I wanted, right? And so, like, I want to like, explain that I was having sex both that I wanted to have and also sex that I didn't want to have, right? And that just in the first time, the first few times was when I didn't want it, right? And so, like, and I feel like there was like some assault and like, now I have language for it that I didn't back then, right? And so like, when I told my bishop and it sucks that the bishop's like, the first line of defense for these things, right? Like, he knew, but kind of didn't know that it was like, not a good situation for me and I didn't want to have sex with these people. And it wasn't non consensual. Non consensual sex. And he kind of knew, didn't know. But the issue was that I had sex. Not that like, this poor girl was in a situation she shouldn't have been in and should have been protected, but I couldn't go to my parents and tell this, right? Because I had to keep up that facade, you know? And so I went to him and he wasn't able to provide the support, understandably, because he's not a child psychiatrist, right. There's no reason he should know how to do these things.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] But he's also completely untrained. And the word consent doesn't even exist in the Mormon vocabulary in 2023, right?

JoCee Porter [00:41:20] It doesn't exist almost at all, Right. Like, it's kind of a new concept, like, idea of consent. So, like, all that was, like, talked about in those meetings was like, oh, you had sex again, not like, well, did you want to? You know, like, are you okay? Are you comfortable? Like, and if you're willingly having sex and you want to stop, that's one thing. But if you're in a bad situation, that's something different. And that wasn't ever, like, distinguished against it. It was all about sex and just having sex of any kind, right? It's not like this was, you know, this was on the way to sex at this point. And so that was kind of the narrative. And it was always like, how to stop, how to stop, how to stop, how to stop. And so I went to the bishop for years for, like. And so I didn't take the sacrament at this entire time. But also hiding that, right? It's not like everyone knew. No one knew.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] How did you hide it that you were taking the sacrament?

JoCee Porter [00:42:11] I would just, like, quickly, like, hide, put on, like, the thing, you know, like, put my. Put my, like, hoodie up, you know, and just kind of, like, make myself small in that moment to pass it around. It's not like I was, like, pretending. I just, like, wouldn't openly show it, right? Or, like, be late for church, you know, that was a good one to just, like, not be there for that, you know?

Rylee Porter [00:42:32] Did you have anxiety about that? Was that something that you thought about how you were gonna cover it up or dodge it on Sundays? Or was it. Did you have kind of a. You know.

JoCee Porter [00:42:42] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:42:43] Did it normalize?

JoCee Porter [00:42:44] I think it eventually normalized where it's just like, okay, like, whatever, you know, but, like, at first, it was certainly like, oh, I don't want anyone to know. And, like, the shame. But when you go through that shame for, like, three, four years, your entire teenage years, it's like. And, like, the only time I cleaned up was in time to get the patriarchal blessing. Right. Did clean up for that. Which, you know, I think it was like, six week was the goal or something like that. And so that's. I did that, and then I got my patriarchal blessing and checked that box and then felt super great about it. And then, like, you know, was naturally curious again. And then it kind of went downhill again, and. And the shame kind of comes back. And that was, like, for years. So, like, I remember the last time that I went to my bishop and this is maybe jumping ahead. I was, like, 19, so I stayed in the family ward until I was 19. The very last time I went to him, like, I was like, yeah. I was like, so I'm still having, like, sex with this boyfriend, you know? And he's like, well, do you want to marry him? And I was like, no, I don't. And he's like, well, maybe you should. So you stop having sex out of wedlock. It's like, so instead of encouraging a happy, healthy. And I said I did not want to marry him, the advice I got was to get married, to not have sex in the inappropriate way any Longer.

Rylee Porter [00:43:51] Which is crazy because that's what was so important. It was just. It was of the utmost importance to not have premarital sex.

JoCee Porter [00:44:00] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:44:00] So how do we fix that equation?

JoCee Porter [00:44:02] And if that includes getting married to the wrong person, then maybe that's your natural consequence. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:10] So messed up. And the bishops are victims because Mormon. The Mormon Church, even though it's worth $250 billion, it brags that it has a lay clergy. And it doesn't train. It does. You know, it doesn't educate or really train its bishops. It just throws them in there. They might be a plumber, they might be a accountant or a stockbroker.

JoCee Porter [00:44:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] But they don't know how to counsel a teenage girl about consent and healthy sexuality and marriage.

JoCee Porter [00:44:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] They're just going to. To teach the 16 or 19 year old whatever they learned from whatever Boyd K. Packer, Spencer W. Kimball said, you know, 30 years ago when, you know, as like post war boomer profits.

JoCee Porter [00:44:52] Right, Right. And I feel like there's like a big missed opportunity actually with this. Right. Because I might like three years, I was going to the bishop like every three weeks or something like that. And he was an engineer. Right. And so we would talk about how much I like, like Sudoku's and I would bring a book to sit outside of his. Outside of his office. Right. Every single time. And like, the books that I'd reading, I feel like would be pretty obvious that Josie's like, very intellectually curious. What a great mentor. Opportunity to be like, oh, so what do you think about. For college? Like, what do you. What do you want to do? And that was never. It was always like, you're a female role and by the way, don't have sex. Like, but you got to at one point, you know, like, you're gonna get married, so you might as well do it now so you're not having sex inappropriately. Like, like he. It was such a missed opportunity for him to like, mentor some curious interest, like intellectually interesting, interesting woman in his clergy.

Rylee Porter [00:45:41] It was also like that reinforcement of where. Where your value was.

JoCee Porter [00:45:46] Right, right, right.

Rylee Porter [00:45:47] Where it's just like. But purity, reproductive purity.

Rylee Porter [00:45:51] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:45:51] But stay pure, pure, pure, pure until you're married.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] And then like a, A Mormon woman's primary value to society is in reproduction. Am I wrong?

JoCee Porter [00:46:02] Absolutely. And like, I'm wrong. And how to. No, you're not wrong. Yeah, I absolutely agree with what you're saying. It's absolutely. And it's like how you support your spouse. Right? Like, that's like the, the big thing. And it's how you support the priesthood. The priesthood holder in the house, like you're never gonna hold the priesthood, but you can support the priesthood holder in different ways. And that was always was taught. And it's, it's always challenging talking about like having sex as like a high schooler because you get so discredited. Right. Like, I can like be this great person that was like very intellectually curious, but it's like, oh, but. And interested in the church and also read the scriptures and also like wanted to be involved in a lot of ways, but like, it's like, oh, well, you're a bad person.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:46:43] This outsized energy that surrounds the fact that she's a sexually active teenager that absolutely blinds them or makes their view myopic. To this is an intellectually curious, scientifically minded, you know, developmentally appropriate.

Rylee Porter [00:47:01] Exactly.

Rylee Porter [00:47:02] Because there's so much emphasis on the sex outside of marriage that like Josie said, there's an absolute missed opportunity. And for mentorship in a lot of different places. And she spoke to this before where like she had to find her own internships. And that to me is what I'd love to hear you speak more about because she went to find these things herself.

Rylee Porter [00:47:23] Really cool.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Quick, before we jump to that like, you know, part, you know, we entered this branch in the conversation where you were talking about your dark years.

JoCee Porter [00:47:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] And you know, we add to it for the never Mormons who watch and listen to Mormon stories. Add to it the teaching within Mormonism that sex out of wedlock is a sin next to murder.

JoCee Porter [00:47:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] You would have been taught that growing up.

JoCee Porter [00:47:48] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] I want to know what, what it's like to be in sort of the law of chastity, bishop based repentance, shame parade. For how many years were you in that shame parade?

Rylee Porter [00:47:59] Three.

JoCee Porter [00:48:00] Yeah, three.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Where you're not taking the sacrament and feeling shamed and confessing to the bishop and he's asking you about your sex life as a teenage girl alone in a room one on one. And then you're feeling three years of feeling like you're committing the sin next to murder. And while you're hiding and lying to your parents, what is you talk about your dark years. That sounds like a recipe for some dark years.

JoCee Porter [00:48:24] Right. And that's why it was the dark years. Right. So it's like, that's why it's like I quit basketball because the bishop was the basketball coach and he wasn't like the active coach at that point. I had kind of graduated beyond it. But he was still, like, very involved in the basketball scene. And so it's like, I had to get away from it, you know? Like, it just wasn't working any longer.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] What about the three years of guilt and shame?

JoCee Porter [00:48:43] So much guilt and so much shame and so much, like, I don't even know how to explain it. Like, you just kind of, like, become small and, like, hide in a lot of ways, right? So, like, I would start bringing books to church, and I would just, like, read in between, like, meetings because I didn't want anyone to talk to me, you know? But I still wanted to be there in a lot of ways because I wanted to be accepted and fit in so badly, but so much. And, like. And you do good, and then you do bad. And then, like, it's like, you don't get any credit for doing good because you did the bad again, right? You don't get any credit for progressing, or you don't get any credit for, like, finding something that you find interesting or having a growing testimony or, like, trying to steal, even build a testimony while, like, you're doing these bad things. Because it's so overshadowed that, like, you're sexually active.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] But your parents didn't know, Right?

JoCee Porter [00:49:31] Okay. So I told them, but they claimed to not know. So this is kind of. We'll have to maybe asked them one of these times. But I know for a fact that I told them when I was 16 that I was having sex. And then, like, now that I'm 27, when we talk about it, they're like, what?

John Dehlin [00:49:45] They don't remember?

JoCee Porter [00:49:46] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:49:47] Collective memory.

Rylee Porter [00:49:48] What was the response at the time that you remember?

JoCee Porter [00:49:50] Right. I told my mom, and then she and I went and had dinner the next night, and it wasn't a good response. It was kind of just like, well, like, bad things happen when you have sex. And then she was like, and you didn't get the HPV vaccine, so, like, you need to be extra careful instead of, like, being like, we should probably get you the HPV vaccine at that

Rylee Porter [00:50:10] point, or, let's talk about how you're feeling, right?

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Or let's consensual or.

JoCee Porter [00:50:15] And I wish that someone said that, right? Because the first time it wasn't right and, like, in it. And I was young, and I wish someone was like, are you okay? Like, what happened? You know? But that never happened, so. But it was always like, this is bad. What you're doing is bad, and you need to stop instead of being like, okay, you're in a healthy relationship. It's likely not Going to. To stop, you know, like, and let's make sure that it's safe instead.

Rylee Porter [00:50:38] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:40] But on the flip side, what you didn't get is you're a horrible, dirty, bad person and you're awful and you need to stop and we're going to ground you for three years and make you break up with your boyfriend. So I mean, they could have given the super orthodox response to you and they didn't.

JoCee Porter [00:50:59] They didn't know. It was, it was just like they kind of added to that shame is all, like the cold or like the emotional shame. But it's not like they were like, oh, by the way, you can't seem ever again. They weren't gonna try and control it or anything. Like they didn't try and control it. Right. Like it still happened, you know, and

Rylee Porter [00:51:16] they didn't ground her, they didn't ground me.

JoCee Porter [00:51:19] And I was still allowed to read books the next day. So I imagine it wasn't grounded from the books either, you know.

Rylee Porter [00:51:24] But I am sensing from you that you were giving yourself those things, right?

JoCee Porter [00:51:30] I was absolutely punishing myself in a lot of ways. And I didn't have the word for it back then, but now like scrupulosity. Scrupulosity, yeah, like where I'd like over emphasize different things and over try and read. Overcompensate. Over try and read the scriptures way more. I would over participate in seminary for a while. I would over participate in like these like my made callings and be there. And even though like I felt awkward and didn't like I was told that I wasn't a good person or whatever, I still tried to compensate in a lot of ways and would still try and bear my testimony as much as possible.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] I, you know, I cannot imagine trying to be an orthodox Mormon youth teenager and being sexually active. That would have chewed me up. And I'm not saying that in like a judgmental or condescending way. It's just, you know, I, I think the guilt would have eaten me alive.

JoCee Porter [00:52:23] Yeah, well, I wanna. Eventually I found the story of Alma the Younger, right? So like I was reading the scriptures and really internalizing in a lot of ways. And I was like, Alma the Younger.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] He.

JoCee Porter [00:52:31] He was doing bad things, but became this great thing. So that was kind of my like redemption. Kind of like Hope was like, Alma the Younger did things way worse than me and became this great spiritual powerhouse. That's gonna be me. That's who I'm gonna become. So I went from Nephi to Alma the Younger, like at that Eastern.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Yeah. Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:52:50] I think what's so interesting about the Nephi Laman Lemuel kind of that story is because it's sort of like they both lose, you know, they both lose. Nephi loses too. Like, to have to. There's pressure to be in Nephi. There's like, so much effort to be Nephi. There's clearly a lot of self betraying in being Nephi because you're showing up for whatever, you know, the parent or God or whoever they want you to be. So it's like everyone loses story.

Rylee Porter [00:53:24] Killing in the name of. Right. Let's not forget that if I was a murderer, it is better that one man perish.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Yeah, but there's probably some metaphorical killing of yourself, right? By. By trying to be something for somebody else and hiding who you are.

Rylee Porter [00:53:39] That's what I'm hearing.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] You denying your own desires. Like, there's probably some even metaphor there with the. With the Laban thing.

Rylee Porter [00:53:46] I just think what I'm hearing is, like, it's so tiring. It's so like, you're working so hard. That's what I'm hearing from you is just how exhausting it is for this whole repentance wheel that you're placed on, but also in this sort of in your family role of, like, what do

JoCee Porter [00:54:08] I have to do around here to

Rylee Porter [00:54:10] be noticed, to be recognized, you know, and you going out for all the things and doing all the things and, you know, that's what I see from you is just like. Like so much earnestness and, like, high effort. Did it feel that way? I mean, do you remember feeling, like, this sense of, like, what it took to be this. This self that people approved of, you know, to. To kind of give yourself whatever love you got there, whatever approval you got there. Do you remember, like, how you felt during that time? If it was just like, like, this is exhausting, right?

JoCee Porter [00:54:48] And. And it was doable for a while. That's why, like, the day I quit basketball, I up and quit, right. Like, one time I was just like, I can't anymore. And, like, that's when I, like, shut down, you know, as like a person, you know, in a lot of different ways, and, like, started just, like, wearing sweats every single day, you know, because it's like, I can't keep doing this. And that was like, a little bit further in high school, right. So I had been trying for so long to keep up this facade, and it didn't work towards the end. And so the end, it's just kind of like like, gave up, you know, needed to quit. Which is disappointing because, like, you're like, I'm out. I liked basketball, you know, Like, I shouldn't have quit. You know, I shouldn't have felt like I needed to.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] And having a healthy sexual experience that was exploratory with the. With a boy you loved, that could have been an amazing, healthy, positive, happy, formative, good experience.

JoCee Porter [00:55:36] Right. And honestly, like, first love as an adult, I'm so glad that that's who my first experience was with. Right. I'm. And he loved me. Right. That's so important. And, like, showed me how to love myself in ways that, like, I couldn't, or, like, how to have a healthy, happy sexual relationship. And maybe a little young, sure. But, like, I'm so glad it happened, because if it would have been in the constraints of how Mormonism kind of introduces you to sex, I don't think it would have been healthy. So I'm glad it happened. It was really hard, but it was really hard to be on that. But I did eventually give up one day and stop. Stop trying to be, like, the perfect Mormon child, you know?

John Dehlin [00:56:15] Well, I just want to know. There's a saying in Buddhism that negative labels are like rusty chains, but positive labels are golden chains. But they're both chains. And I just want to note how much you suffered, Riley, by being labeled as. As the. You know. As what? As the black sheep.

Rylee Porter [00:56:36] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:56:36] But you were suffering, too, trying to carry the label of Nephi. All the labels are. Are helpful, good and bad.

JoCee Porter [00:56:45] Right, right, right. No, it's such a good point and such a good point, and, like, to just not be able to be your authentic self or just be who. Who you want to be, and having to pretend to be someone different is. It's. It's exhausting.

Rylee Porter [00:56:59] I have a question around when you kind of did that. I'm out. I'm not. Did your parents. Is this something basketball, you mean? Yeah, with basketball and you. You kind of saying, oh, and then I started wearing sweats and I started. Right. Kind of being different, showing up in a way that was different from before. I just. I'm curious if your parents ever caught on when that change happened and, you know, kind of. How alone were you able to talk to your boyfriend in a way that was connecting to you? Like, did you feel alone even then?

JoCee Porter [00:57:40] Right. I mean, and eventually my boyfriend and I broke up. So, like, when, like, the dark years kind of started, we had broken up at this point. Right. So it was, like, further along in high school, I dated him My first two years of high school, this is kind of the third year of high school, and I was just like, I'm done. And yes, my dad did notice, right? So, like, I quit basketball, but he took me to every single game across the entire state, to every single high school. So, like, he really showed up for me in a lot of ways, like, and he was there and like, he couldn't be what I needed him to be, or he couldn't like, approach the sexual conversations in ways I wish he had or, like, asked me, like, were you sexually assaulted? Okay, let's talk about that. But he was there, you know, when I, when I needed him at that time for sure.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] Was it, was it ever an option in your mind? Like, one of the things that Riley was able to do was to kind of say, something's rotten here. And I don't know exactly what it is. And it wasn't until Riley went to college and started studying Mormon church history, where she was able to sort of put language to why she wanted to check out of Mormonism. But it's pretty clear Riley felt Mormonism was toxic starting in high school and was sort of saying, this system isn't. Isn't good, it's not true, and it's not good. Did you consider, because you were going through in some ways having a worse experience than Riley was, but putting on the face of an orthodox believer, Was there any part of you that was open to the possibility that it just wasn't true, it was toxic and harmful, and you just were going to check out of it and just live your best, most authentic life? Or did you feel bound to stay faithful, partly trying to be the anti Riley in the sense of not wanting to become a black sheep too, and not wanting to make your parents sad and not wanting to become another black sheep in your family?

JoCee Porter [00:59:34] Right. No, honestly, I never considered leaving at this time. And that's why I'm like, I feel like people probably discredit the fact that, like, I truly wanted to be a good Mormon despite having sex, because they'll just like, focus on the sex aspect of that, right. That I, I truly believed the entire time I found reasons to keep believing in that. Like, even though I wasn't able to follow it or I wasn't following it perfectly. Like, I knew in the future I would right that, like, I would figure it out and I, I would have a redemption arc somehow. And this is ultimately true. I'm not leaving like, this is, this is true. My parents believe it, everyone believes it. You know, it's And I, I ate into that cultural soup where it's like, the only way to have a happy marriage is to, you know, get married in the temple and to follow these steps and get the patriarchal blessing and go to seminary. I remember my young woman leader would be like, everyone that graduated from seminary of like, has now had a temple marriage. And that's so great. And so like, that's kind of where I was like, okay, I'm gonna. And that's kind of what motivated me to graduate seminary in a lot of ways because I was like, I need to get to the temple. That will save me. And like, I'm like having sex so I can't go to the temple right now. But I was like, I'm graduating seminary and that will be the step that I need to get to the temple and figure it out and like, clean myself up. Because I truly believed and like, in a very academic way, like, I was very, like, I knew the scriptures really well. Right. And. But again, people discredit that in a lot of ways. But I truly believed the, that the church was so true on so many levels and there wasn't a doubt in my mind at this time that it wasn't true or that this was actually the cause of my, of my internal hurts.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] Just that idea have cleaned myself up is so saddening to me. But, but you're, you're. The paradox of both your stories is just reinforcing to me that in a high demand religion, nobody's safe and nobody wins. It doesn't matter which side you choose. You're going to feel the guilt and shame and the rejection and the self loathing.

Rylee Porter [01:01:27] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] Even if you try and become Nephi, you're going to feel the self loathing. You just get self loathing. That is the formula.

Rylee Porter [01:01:33] It is part of it, I think. And I'm just going to push back a little bit on what you were saying about better or, you know, I think you intimated that one was worse than the other. And I just think they're all.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] If I said that, I didn't mean it.

Rylee Porter [01:01:47] Oh, okay. That they're all just worse than a

John Dehlin [01:01:49] Mormon from the Mormon lens. Right?

Rylee Porter [01:01:52] Oh, I didn't know. I just like in that just saying that pain is pain, suffering is suffering, and it feels like you both have had, you know, significant suffering while trying to kind of show up in a lens and within a bubble.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Yeah, you can't win. Everybody suffers.

JoCee Porter [01:02:11] Right?

Rylee Porter [01:02:11] That's right.

Rylee Porter [01:02:12] There's a cost for all.

Rylee Porter [01:02:13] That's right.

JoCee Porter [01:02:14] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:02:15] It sounds like to me the you truly believed in like the redemptive gospel of. Of repentance. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:02:21] I knew that I could become clean

Rylee Porter [01:02:22] and that she would become clean given her certain acts. Right. She could achieve it. She could win it through certain acts. I'll eventually earn the right to feel clean.

Rylee Porter [01:02:34] Which makes sense with the scrupulosity then as well. Right. Because that would be the key. And then your need is greater.

Rylee Porter [01:02:41] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:02:41] Or your perceived need.

JoCee Porter [01:02:42] No, like when I look. Because it's like you learn vocabulary when you grow up. Like you learn what consent is. But when I learned the vocabulary term of scrupulosity, I was like, oh my God, that's what it was. Holy cow. Like, this makes so much sense. And now I can actually understand what was going on because I have a

Rylee Porter [01:02:59] word for it, articulate my reality.

JoCee Porter [01:03:02] So like, and I learned that on Mormon stories. Right. And so it wasn't until looking back that I had that term and, and I was 25, you know, like so.

John Dehlin [01:03:11] And for those who don't know, I've done six or my master's thesis as a psychology PhD was on scrupulosity, which is religious based obsessive compulsive disorder. It's hyper religiosity within a religious context as a, as an anxiety disorder. But people just conceptualize it as super righteousness or super faithfulness, when in reality it can be a literal, you know, distressing severe anxiety disorder.

Rylee Porter [01:03:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] That. That can cause all sorts of serious problems. And it's very prevalent in high demand religions like orthodox Judaism, like devout Islam and like Mormonism.

JoCee Porter [01:03:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:51] Okay, so anything else about your high school years before, before we go to college? You said you did graduate from seminary.

JoCee Porter [01:03:57] I graduated from seminary, yeah. That was my key to the kingdom. No, nothing, Nothing that just like my senior year, I didn't attend schools. I started student teaching basically. And that's kind of what my focus was. But I was still curious. And so I was still very curious, I guess, is the only thing I'd say.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] Do you have. I'm just injecting this narrative, but like, I'm thinking about all your New Jersey peers in these white collar Mormon elites. Did either of you start seeing your peers from New Jersey start going off to Ivy League schools or byu? And did you ever contrast or compare yourself to how your journeys ended up being moving to North Ogden and not following that white collar, Wall Street, New York, New Jersey kind of lifestyle or not?

Rylee Porter [01:04:54] No. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:04:55] I mean, I saw all my peers go to great schools. Great schools like Brown was a big one because it was, you know, New Jersey. And you get into Ivy. Some call them Columbia. Right. Some to Penn State. So, like, great schools that, like, these people went to and have achieved great things from that Princeton and. Yeah, there's like, a little begrudgement. I think that I have that, like, I went to the University of Utah, and, like, I'm still a little angry about that. You know, it's like I. I had full potential to go to a great school. Not that you need to go to a great school, but if anyone could have, it could have been me. I could have done it. And. And I. I didn't. And I think a lot of things that got in the way was, like, the church, the confidence, the fact that I didn't think that I needed to. That I was just trying to get married. I didn't want to leave Utah because I'd be hard to find someone to get married in the temple with. And these things got in the way of me pursuing a great education.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] And by the way, I love University of Utah and Utah State, and I even have a soft place in my heart for BYU and our sons at uvu. So I think Utah has great schools. I'm more talking about kind of the comparison game of. Of that culture your parents chose to leave.

JoCee Porter [01:06:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] And if that might have been weighing on either of you a little bit,

Rylee Porter [01:06:06] well, then real quick, may I. Can I give a shout out to Weber State? Because that's where I ended up graduating Lillard came from, who's now in Oregon. He's a port, you know, a Portland Blazer.

Rylee Porter [01:06:17] So.

Rylee Porter [01:06:18] So I actually don't even have to. I'm in. I live in Oregon now, is what I should say. But I don't even have to, like, say, you know, oh, I'm from Salt Lake City. I'll say I'm from Ogden, you know, Damian. And they'll be like, oh, so, yeah, it's so good. But I mean, I started up at Utah or at, yeah, Utah State because, like, Weber State was like this commuter, like, kind of like, you know, I don't know, like the. Everyone. I mean, I'm pretty sure that they have an acceptance rate of 100%, which should be celebrated, you know, But I truly. I went to Utah State, hated the small culture, the small mindset culture there, transitioned to Weber State. And I just don't think that school gets nearly enough credit because I had an incredible experience. They're great schools, and I bleed Wildcats. So I love that. I graduated from Weber State, and I say that proudly where I thought Josie was, you know, the high achieving son of a guy. She went to the University of Utah. Like, so funny how perspective changes everything because I was so impressed with what Josie was doing at the University of Utah, you know, and it may have.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] It may have unintentionally come off like you weren't happy at the.

Rylee Porter [01:07:27] Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] But I think that's not true. So go ahead.

JoCee Porter [01:07:30] Well, I have complex feelings about the U, because, like, I. If I were to do it again, I would have applied for Columbia, because why not? You know, like, might as well shoot your shot. And I didn't even think to apply to these schools. I applied to the University of Utah, got in. That's where I went. And. But the U was great to me. It really was like. And it's a great school. So I had a lovely, lovely experience there that I treasure so fondly. But, yeah, if I were to do it over, I should have shot a few more shots. I should have have known to have done that, and I didn't.

Rylee Porter [01:07:58] I think that's so key when it comes to, like, this reckoning we do with our conditioned selves, like, to go back in time and to look at the choices. Like the oftentimes we actually mourn the choices we didn't give ourselves. You know what I mean? The default that we just sort of placed ourselves in without a question, without any type of. And that's what I'm really hearing from you particularly too, because you. A brother who also went. And I think that's an important part here it is, is like, you know, maybe there were more options, more choices, more considerations, and maybe even like, more comfort that he have that he get to spend more money as opposed to, like, well, I know my role and I know where I'm going to end up. And so would you want to talk about any of that?

JoCee Porter [01:08:52] Yeah, and this is where it gets iffy because I don't want my brother to feel poorly. But I also think that I have a little bit of a grudgement for him because of these things, because he was given the options that I don't think I was. He applied to these colleges. He had help applying to these colleges. The bishop wrote his letter of recommendation to get into West Point, where my bishop told me I was a terrible person. A very different experience that we had. And we were so close in age and so competitive and both very interested in science. Right. And so, yeah, he went to West Point, he got the help, and I ended up as an engineer. So clearly I figured it out. But, like, he was given a few more, you know, advantages that I didn't. I had to kind of claw my way up there. And some of it he was kind of spoon fed. And I think, and honestly, I think it's because he was male. I think it's because he had the priesthood. His role was supposed to be a breadwinner. He had to make a lot of money, you know, and I think people were more willing to mentor other young men in the ward and they weren't willing to mentor young women in the ward. And that's kind of why. So I think it has a lot to do with unconscious bias in a lot of ways, and that's why our experiences are a little bit different.

Rylee Porter [01:10:09] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:10:10] Well, can I speak for my parents here for a second? Because first off, I want to make it clear that most people who go to West Point and who go to these, like, really prestigious military academies are military family. Their families all go do that. There's not a single military person in our entire family. So that was entire. Like, nobody told our youngest brother that he should think about West Point. He should. He chose that entirely of his own volition. This is where I struggle with our parents sometimes, is they. I think that they allowed kind of like self interest, like following your own interests to, to a detriment a little bit. You know, because it's like, I just don't think that Joe's. They'll say that Jackson chose West Point. So once he made that decision and made that his goal, they were going to do everything that they could to support that goal as they should. Right. But sometimes you don't know what goals you should be looking at. Like, I thought about that with finance. It's like my dad was in finance and I was like, dad, why didn't you teach me to invest in stocks at a very early age? That's totally something that would have been in your wheelhouse. And he's like, well, you never asked. You weren't interested. And it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. When I was 13 and 15, I wasn't thinking about the stock market. Silly me.

John Dehlin [01:11:36] Being taught to quilt in activity days or young women. Yeah, my nursing.

Rylee Porter [01:11:39] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:11:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] Maybe you weren't given the vision of what you might be interested or could have been.

Rylee Porter [01:11:45] And I think that was. If there's the sin of my parents here, it's a failure of imagination of what Josie could have been to the same extent. Because we'll like, I want, you know, my, my brother's own merit he chose West Point. Nobody decided that for him. So good and great for him. But there could have been more. I mean, I didn't have a con. I. You know, it's funny when Josie talks about that no one even asked if I was going to college because, like, it was a struggle to get me to graduate, not because I wasn't smart, you know. Right. Well, you know, I think that Josie, it was, it made sense for her to go to the University of Utah, which had a great science program which she was already like, working in because she had done internships at the University of Utah. It was just, I think a. If I'll speak for my parents and I'll take a. That upon myself, failure to like, pause and be like, we could think bigger. You could, you could go bigger. You know, it's not just that Jackson was special or exemplary to shoot for the stars.

John Dehlin [01:12:48] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:12:48] In. Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] And in your parents defense that this is a very Mormon story. So it's, it's, it's. And it's probably a very American story too. Go ahead.

JoCee Porter [01:12:57] Right. Well. And I kind of brought a point to like, emphasize that like, the bishop wrote my brother letter recommendation, and the bishop didn't help me because once I showed interest in science and technology, my parents were like, yeah, let's go, let's get you there. And like, when I showed interest in finance, my dad was flying me around the country. Right. I think it was the culture that told me I couldn't be those things. And I don't think that they were loud enough to be like, don't listen to like, where they were so quick to separate doctrine and culture. They didn't do that for gender roles for me. And so they're like, nope. Doctrine and culture, the family, the proclamation of the world. You belong at home. And so like, they were easy to separate the two, but they couldn't for that. And I think that that's. That was really hurtful for me.

Parental Influence and Leaving for University

Rylee Porter [01:13:34] I have a question just about. And this might be uncomfortable if it is. It's okay. You can just kind of say, but do you think that your parents underestimated the power of culture in your experiences once you got to Utah, or do you think they didn't see it?

JoCee Porter [01:13:52] Yeah, that's a good question. Like, and I think both. Right. And I think that they both kind of explain a lot of it. Right. Because I don't think that anyone. They definitely never actively told me to be a mother. Right. And that was the only important role for me. But, like, they didn't Tell me otherwise. And so therefore, I internalized messaging. And so I think they underestimated it and overestimated my ability to see past the bullshit that they. That was so obvious to them. But did it end up being obvious to me because I internalized it?

John Dehlin [01:14:24] Yeah, we, we did that. We thought, okay, we, we're progressive, we're liberal, we're pro lgbt, we're feminist, we're not racist, so we can raise our kids Mormon. Oh, and by the way, we don't body shame, and we're not about modesty culture, and we don't care if you show your shoulders. So we'll raise our kids Mormon, but we'll be able to neutralize all the damaging cultural messages. But that's not how it works. You put your kids in that pool of conservative, toxic Mormon culture, they're going to be tainted and affected by it. Even if you're constantly trying to neutralize the impact of that culture. I think.

JoCee Porter [01:15:07] Right. No, I think that absolutely makes sense. And I think it was a sin of a mission, if anything. Not any active wording. I don't think they thought that I would internalize that culture as strongly as I really did.

John Dehlin [01:15:23] All right, so how was the University of Utah and how did your faith progress at the U?

JoCee Porter [01:15:27] I loved the U. So I do want to give a quick shout out first, just like some great things about the University of Utah. I was able to, like, work in the nuclear reactor, which I loved, and I had, like a great relationship.

Rylee Porter [01:15:37] Yeah, people don't know that there's a nuclear reactor underneath the University of Utah. And my sister Freaky worked there, which is incredible.

JoCee Porter [01:15:45] So there's seven universities that have a nuclear reactor on campus, and the University of Utah is one of them. And so I got the amazing opportunity to do research there and to even become a nuclear reactor operator for a little while through some classes, because you can take classes to learn to operate the nuclear reactor. So I was able to do that. I had like, research, and the research was sponsored by NASA. Like, I was all in at this point. I really, really loved it. And at the same time, I also started a 501 nonprofit organization. Right. And I was loading out prom dresses to girls in need. And this is kind of where I.

John Dehlin [01:16:15] What was the non profit.

JoCee Porter [01:16:17] It was called Celebrate Every Day. And I would loan out prom dresses to girls in need all over the state. And we eventually partnered with Big Brothers, Big Sisters, we partnered with the Tim Tebow foundation, we partnered with the Ms. Amazing Foundation. Like the. And that's the special needs Pageant, the night of excellence was it night to shine. That's tiba.

Rylee Porter [01:16:35] Okay, sorry.

JoCee Porter [01:16:36] So I was able to do that, and that was a great experience. And I'll kind of bring in my Utah vs. New York experience here. Like, in New York, you really learn how to serve people around you. And one of the things that I think I internalized a lot was the act of service and how it needed to be more than just one evening and picking up supplies and gathering a quick merit badge project to bring supplies together and ship them off to troops. Right. That's an easy service project. But service needs to be deep and meaningful and impactful and personal. And so I internalized that a lot and had, like, a great need to, like, serve. And so I started this nonprofit organization, which I loved, and my parents let me take over the entire basement, including Riley's bedroom and two other bedrooms. And I was full of prom dresses. And I just had people come in and out of the house just renting prom dresses from me for free. And so I loved that.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] So most kids. Kids either drop out of college or struggle to just survive. What's driving you to, like, start to, like, run nuclear reactors and start a 501C3 when most kids are just struggling to survive in college? What was. What was going on?

JoCee Porter [01:17:47] Right. Well, so I stopped, and I think my years in college, I, like, really thrived and really did really well. So, like, I would say the high school was kind of the dark years. And then, like, I stopped talking to the bishop. I stopped attending any kind of church thing. I didn't stop believing. A lot of times people are like, I was physically in, mentally out. I was mentally in, physically out. I wasn't going. Wasn't working for me, but I still really, really, truly believed. And I kind of was able to get rid of a lot of the baggage that I think I was carrying around and the shame that was kind of holding me back and was able to really do really quite well in the university spectrum away from my parents, away from this organization or the culture that I grew up in. Right. I was in the University of Utah, where there's a strong anti Mormon, Mormon culture. Right. And it's not like I hung out there, but it was around. And that kind of gave me some sort of breath of fresh air that I didn't have earlier.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] So you did not attend student ward very much?

JoCee Porter [01:18:41] No, I mean, I went maybe like seven times total in four years. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:45] And what about institute?

Rylee Porter [01:18:47] No.

JoCee Porter [01:18:47] No way. Yeah. No way.

John Dehlin [01:18:49] Your parents, like, why aren't you at institute. Why aren't you. How's your ward? What's your calling? They were doing that.

JoCee Porter [01:18:55] No, and they weren't. They were kind of like, with Riley, like, like, open and accepting and. And I would have conversations with my dad about, like, the theology of the church at this point. And. And that was enough for them to be like, oh, yep, she still believes and she's still studying. And. And I. And I was curious about different things within the. Within the church that was separate than the culture. And I think they were able to be like, this culture is bad, but, like, they still believe in. In the church, and that's great. And so that's kind of, I think, what they felt.

John Dehlin [01:19:21] How much were you getting sort of like. Like, Riley really caused all this pain and suffering in the family? You can't leave the church, Josie. Don't, you know, don't do that to us. Riley's already disappointed us. Don't. You know, you gotta be the strong one and stay faithful. Did you ever get that kind of garbage?

JoCee Porter [01:19:38] Absolutely. But it would, like, come and go, right? And it was a lot more when I was younger, right? And that's when I was, like, when I was 14, I felt like Nephi, right? Because I wasn't, you know, sinning yet, and Riley was, and I felt like I was doing great and she was destroying the family. And I could see that. And that was definitely the narrative when I was 14. But, like, Riley was kind of out and doing her own thing. And so it wasn't on anyone's mind to give me the lecture at that point that Riley was destroying the life. I do know that when she got her records removed, I heard about that. And my dad, like, cried to me about that and told me how it was a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:20:12] Were you in high school or college?

Rylee Porter [01:20:13] College.

John Dehlin [01:20:14] Do you want to talk about that at all?

JoCee Porter [01:20:17] There wasn't much to talk about other than it was very impactful for him. And he was. Was so sad over it. And he told me about it and was like, yeah, Riley did this. And I think he knew at this time that, like, I wasn't attending church but was holding onto the hope that I would come back, which I also was probably holding onto the hope that I would come back as well. And so therefore, how he perceived it was like, well, Josie, when she figures it out, she'll be back. And there's nothing in her way to come back where for Riley, there's a big barrier to come back because now she has to get rebaptized. And so I think that's how it was at least spoken to towards me. But, I mean, he was devastated when Riley got her records removed. Like, just so sad. And talked about it. And every single time he would talk about it, he would tear up and took that so personally.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] Was he saying, like. Like, one of the things I never. Well, one of the things I had to realize is if I talk to any of my kids about any of the other kids, they're gonna know or think, well, he'll talk about me whenever I do something. So, like, what was that like to have your dad venting to you about

JoCee Porter [01:21:25] your sister at this time? So I guess at this time, I was. My dad and I were best friends, and I was also starting to go into finance at this time, so, like, even extra best friends. And I think my, like, dance with finance was to really be accepted by my dad. And if I were being completely honest, that's probably what that was. And so my dad and I, we would commute two hours one way into Salt Lake and one way back. Especially over summer when I wasn't staying at the dorms, I would, you know, commute with him. And so, like, we were talking all the time, and we're best friends, and. And so I thought that, like, I thought pretty special that he was confiding in me. I think it's now a little inappropriate, but at the time, I thought I was, like, really special and, like, just, like, how much my dad tried, trusted me and felt like he could tell me these things. And did I think he was talking about me behind my back? I did not. I thought that we were best friends. I thought that he was gonna keep my secrets and we were gonna be great friends forever.

John Dehlin [01:22:22] And those are the types of things that cause sibling rivalry. I mean, it's the story of Cain and Abel. It's the story of, like, east of Eden with Jonathan Steinbeck. Like, when one kid starts to be favored or be a favorite. And you joked about this at the very beginning, when one kid starts to be or feel like they're the favorite, and then another kid sees that, that can cause kids to really go at each other. But it's the parents creating the sadness in the kids and the tension between the kids by kind of showing favoritism. But I'm not, like, dissing on your dad. Like, I'm sure he was. He knew that college and a mission. Well, a mission turned him around. But then college was how he thrived, and he was probably vibing that you were thriving in college, and that made him Feel really good and made him probably feel connected to you. Right?

JoCee Porter [01:23:17] No, absolutely. And I don't know, did you feel like dad was showing active favoritism during this time?

Rylee Porter [01:23:22] Well, yeah. Cause like when we'd be on the phone, he'd call me Josie all the time.

Rylee Porter [01:23:27] You know, there was that.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Did you get the name wrong or what?

JoCee Porter [01:23:30] Because we had to talk about.

Rylee Porter [01:23:31] He would be talking to me. Yeah. And he'd just be like, well, Josie, I mean, Jos Riley. Who is this Riley?

John Dehlin [01:23:38] And you think that to mean what?

Rylee Porter [01:23:39] Well, just that he was talking to Josie all of the time. Right. You know that. I mean, like I knew that they were like spending so much time together that Josie was transitioning. I mean, in my mind, from my perspective, because. And I want this on record that I, I was always a proud big sister. Like even though that there was competition felt and there was isolation felt. And Josie rightfully and justifiably felt hurt by a lot of my actions that caused disruption in the family. I've always been so freaking proud of my. Like I had enough space in years between me that Josine Jackson. There was a lot of competition between two siblings that were both redheads that both looked like. But there was enough space for me that I just like marveled at both of them. So at the time, like I just thought that Josie was so great, it hurt that she thought so little of me, that she thought that I was such a fuck up, that I was such a waste of space that she couldn't see, like, you know, me as an individual. And that just hurt because I thought so highly of her. I thought she was so impressive and high achieving both of my siblings. And so quite frankly, when she, you know, started not doing the science stuff as much, which when with the nuclear reactor and everything that I was so proud of and saw that she was like going into finance, I was like, well, that's my dad. He's just such an influential person. Of course Josie's going to go into finance to find that recognition that she never feels like she finds with him or whatever. Like I was more frustrated with my father than I ever was. And that's how my experience it was is I always was so proud of them and more frustrated with my father for being an outsized influence. And can't you just see that she's just trying to get your acceptance all of the time? That's all this is. That's all this is. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] That's why I want you guys to watch Succession.

Rylee Porter [01:25:34] I'm gonna text you after and be like, all right, which character am I?

Rylee Porter [01:25:39] Back to succession.

John Dehlin [01:25:40] And I have to ask, Josie, did he ever call you Riley?

JoCee Porter [01:25:44] Yeah, I think so. He does now. He does now for sure. I know that he talks to her way more now.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] Now he calls you Riley. Okay.

JoCee Porter [01:25:53] No, I felt very special and very, you know, cherished those conversations that I had with my dad. And I was switching into finance. So, like, this is when I started hanging out with the Enzyme Peak people. Among like, like amazing investors all over the world. I was like, welcomed with open arms into this, like, finance world.

Rylee Porter [01:26:12] I'm prestigious finance world.

JoCee Porter [01:26:14] Many people that. It's kind of like shocking that I met. My dad flew me to New York, to Boston, to San Francisco, to San Francisco to la, right. Like four corners of the country right there to meet with these financial elites. Because he was so excited that I wanted to go into finance. And. And he had influence and he had power and he had connections. And I was able to meet with these people. And that was really, really cool. That was really, really cool. And I acknowledge a lot of privilege that that comes with. And I'm very grateful for those experiences. That was really cool.

JoCee Pursues Finance and Discovers Her Path

John Dehlin [01:26:46] Why did you pursue finance? What happened?

JoCee Porter [01:26:49] I did for a little while. So I did two internships on Wall street, both with Deutsche bank, if you guys know about Deutsche Bank. And I only got that internship because of my dad, right? And I can like say that pretty confidently. I was the only, only state school person. Everyone else was like, where did you go to school? Harvard, you know, Stanford, Columbia, you know, like, they were all like these great schools. University of Utah, you know, go Utes. So I didn't fit in. The only reason I got in was because I was able to have conversations with higher ups within Deutsche bank. And they sponsored my internship. And that was because of connections with my dad. Like, my GPA wasn't good.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] How would an investor from. For Ensign Peak have relationships with influence with Deutsche Bank?

Rylee Porter [01:27:31] Right?

JoCee Porter [01:27:32] Well, a lot of reasons. One, they're from Wall street themselves, right? So like, this is. I did an internship on the same building my dad did an internship on 20 years previously. Right? So like it's.

Rylee Porter [01:27:43] You are in New York.

JoCee Porter [01:27:46] It's also like the Ensign Peak influence is a big influence. And I remember that being a big deal actually when I got the Deutsche bank internship, is that like, they're like, well, Ensign Peak and your dad works for Enzyme Peak and they're a big investor. And so therefore, like, we gotta be like, pretty cautious about how this internship works to not like have you be exposed to any of these investment vehicles that Ensign Peak is a part of? So you can only do internships in this subsection because you can't be near this, because we don't want you to be privy to information you shouldn't.

Rylee Porter [01:28:18] A conflict of interest.

JoCee Porter [01:28:19] Right? Conflict of interest in a lot of ways. So, like my internship, and it was a conversation that had to be had for all the internships that I got, but I got a lot of really great ones. Really great ones. And all because of my dad. Right. Like this computer science major. What is she doing on Wall Street?

Rylee Porter [01:28:36] Right. Well, it just shows that Josie excels in whatever role she takes on. She's an incredible achiever in whatever she sets her mind to. But it also speaks, to answer your question, John, like, even though Ensign Peak obviously was not transparent and not public knowledge to the overall public and especially not to the members in the investment

JoCee Porter [01:28:57] world, it was no people.

Rylee Porter [01:28:59] I mean, you know, money speaks, and there wasn't transparency or declaration on how much money there was. There was just all of a sudden, like an awareness of, wow, Ensign Peak is everywhere and they're at the table. I mean, so if you were in the investment world, you knew Ensign Peak before the members knew about Ensign Peak, Right?

John Dehlin [01:29:20] Yeah. We covered this in the Widow's Mite episodes. But like Ensign Peak, the investments at Inside Peak are like, what are they bigger than the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? They're like, out of Harvard and Stanford and all the endowments combined. It's bigger than, you know, there are only a few investment organizations with bigger assets than Inside Peak. It's massive.

JoCee Porter [01:29:44] It's massive.

Rylee Porter [01:29:45] And speaking of Bill and Millennial, I

JoCee Porter [01:29:46] have a great story about that. I'm going to save it for the next episod, though, that. Something about that, that. So bring this back up. But, yeah, massive, massive investments in. In. And that's why I got the internships. Right. It's not like. And I, and I, I do want to be like, I don't think I was, like, low achieving. They just, like, gave this internship to this, like, person who, like, clearly didn't deserve it, but, like, did not have the credentials that matched everyone else that was doing that internship. Did not match. But I was welcomed into those rooms because the relationship with my dad was more important than, like, this, like, three week long internship. Right. Like, might as well let her in, I think is probably how they saw it. And then we're like, oh, Josie's pretty good. And then they offered me return offers. And those return offers I take on my merit because you're not gonna get a return offer if you're bad. And I did get the return offers, but I was welcomed into the door because of Ensign Peak and because of my dad and.

Rylee Porter [01:30:39] Cause he was such an influential per. Like we said, he was very. He's involved in with a lot of people. He's put a lot of people in good situations. He has a lot of. Not that he calls on favors, but a lot of people that he could.

JoCee Porter [01:30:52] And they all speak so greatly highly of him.

Rylee Porter [01:30:55] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:30:56] And so, like, when I was doing these internships in New York, I was staying in the houses of these investors that he was doing these group like, investments with. Right. So, like, they are very personal relationships as well that I got to live in penthouses in New York City because of. And that was really cool. Really great.

John Dehlin [01:31:15] Yeah. I mean, not to be disparaging, but it's a ton of privilege, right?

Rylee Porter [01:31:19] Absolutely.

JoCee Porter [01:31:22] Absolutely. It really is. And I didn't even acknowledge how much privilege it totally was. Yeah. And I'm so grateful for the privilege that there was.

Rylee Porter [01:31:32] And in some ways, though, I do have to say because I was so proud of everything that Josie did, but it was not lost upon me that the privileges and experiences were afforded to her because Josie was showcasing the right, you know, and seeking it out and doing it.

John Dehlin [01:31:47] And the Mormon, she appeared very Mormon and faithfully Mormon. Right?

Rylee Porter [01:31:52] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:31:54] And I think that mattered. And I think the fact that I still believed was important. Or the fact that, like, even though, like, I wasn't a perfect Mormon, I was still actively trying, I hadn't given up on it and.

Rylee Porter [01:32:04] And showcasing is what I called it.

John Dehlin [01:32:09] Okay, so why didn't you keep pursuing finance?

Rylee Porter [01:32:13] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:32:14] Okay, so during finance, finance is just like engineering where you're the only woman in the room. And I don't know, for some reason I thought that would get better. But as I progressed through college, I was the only woman in the room. And things got weird in a lot of weird ways that I couldn't articulate well at the time. And I can now articulate a lot better. But like, like I would be like, asked out by every single one of my TAs, because I was the only woman in the computer engineering classes. Right. A lot of electrical engineering classes, only women. And I was asked out. And that's weird, right. And because people would see this TA asking me out, they would now, like, complain that I was like, doing well because I was getting help from the ta and therefore, like, my merit was so undermined at the fact that I was female, right? Or a lot of. Of, like, I'd get so many comments like that where I just didn't feel like I fit in the room more and more and more.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] This is back at the U.

JoCee Porter [01:33:06] This is back at the U.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] Computer science.

JoCee Porter [01:33:08] So I got a degree in computer science. The idea going into finance was that I'd be a quant, right? So I'd get my computer engineering degree. I'd take my coding skills and I would build a, like, AI algorithm that would trade for you. So, like, I wanted to, like, combine the two. So I would get the degree but still go into finance. So I was still doing New York City internship, but pursuing a computer science degree, which would be really cool. Someone write me that bot. I will subscribe. And so a lot of just like, a lot of experiences happened like that. Or I'd be like. People would be like, oh, you got a scholarship? And I'd be like, yeah, I got the scholarship. And like, very proud. And they'd be like, you only got it because you're female. Affirmative action, which is, you know, frustrating. And I felt like I wasn't considered an equal in a lot of places.

Rylee Porter [01:33:54] So.

JoCee Porter [01:33:55] So how did I leave finance? I left finance when I left the church, basically. And why did I leave the church? I just wanted to be clear and maybe hear the sound out for you. I would not have left the church if I was a man. I don't think I would have. I didn't have a spiritual awakening, right? I didn't have a spiritual transition. I had a feminist awakening where I was like, wow, I am not being treated equal in these rooms. And even though I'm working so hard to be in these rooms, harder than a lot of people to be in these rooms, I am. I am so discredited. What is going on? And I, like, looked and I was like. I learned the word patriarchy for the first time. And I was like, it's a system of patriarchy. What is happening? What is causing the system of patriarchy? Why do I myself feel inferior to people? Why do I go into a room and make myself small, right? When I do, am I small? Do I need to be small? Why am I not accepted and allowed to speak? And so I kind of looked internally and looked externally and tried to figure out, like, what was going on there. And I realized that, like, I was a woman, and the world is a different place for women. And why is that the case? And why is that the case in my world, my sheltered, protected world, why was I Treated differently as a woman. And I came down to Mormonism. An unapologetic, patriarchal religion put me in a box that I didn't like and I didn't want to be in. And I found that to be wrong. And that's why I left the church. And that would not have happened if I was male. I probably would have sat in the privilege, would have loved the priesthood, would have loved to have had more authority than every other woman in the entire world because I was a 12 year old boy with a priesthood authority. I would have loved that, I'm sure. But because it was unfair to me, I was like, wow, this is a bad system. I finally saw it for the first time and that's when I started leaving.

John Dehlin [01:35:39] Okay, so kind of zoning in on your testimony and your relationship with the church. Now, you said that once you went to the U, you stopped attending church, you didn't attend institute, but you described yourself as mentally in, but physically out. So you start experiencing sexism and patriarchy in the finance world and at the university level in stem, but make the connections for how you, you tied that into Mormonism and then decided it was going to impact both your faith and ultimately your relationship with the church. Like maybe chronologically. Can you take us to the. There's this, there's this moment where you start going down the rabbit hole. Can you, I know you just kind of gave us the overview conceptually, but can you kind of tell the story of you falling into the rabbit hole and then how you let other people know and then how that played out for you individually, but also for your family and your relationships and ultimately, if you ever ended up telling Riley, if so, when and how.

JoCee Porter [01:36:53] Right, Right. So I think my first, like I, I read an essay online and it was by Amy McPhee that her viral essay, and I can't believe what it's called.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] It's Mormon. No. Dear Mormon Man.

JoCee Porter [01:37:08] Dear Mormon Man. I read that and the, the, the emphasis.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] Dear Mormon man, what would you, what would you do?

JoCee Porter [01:37:15] Or what would you say?

John Dehlin [01:37:16] Yeah, I'm going to look it up. Keep going.

Rylee Porter [01:37:17] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:37:18] And I read that and that really hit me in a lot of ways. And, and the point of this essay was like, dear Mormon man, what would you do if all of your prophets were female? If all of the people in front of the room were female? What would you do if the only people that could give you a priesthood blessing were female? What would you do if the only authority in the room was female? What would you do if anything. You said could Be undermined by a female, what would you do? And that really hit me. And I was like, wow, like, and I didn't even think that patriarchy was bad. I, like, kind of didn't think that these Mormonism was bad at all. And I, I, I was living what I thought to be like a really, you know, I, I had a very big testimony, despite not not wanting to be an active participate in the singles award.

John Dehlin [01:38:04] And really quickly, I'm a little bit embarrassed that I'm rusty, but the essay is Dear Mormon man, tell me what you would do. And Amy McFeelibast, who we had on Mormon Stories years ago, years before she started breaking down patriarchy podcast. This, this essay had gone viral, right? And so I had her on Mormon Stories and she wrote it as a faithful believing Mormon. At the time she was at Stanford, her husband Eric was like running chess.com and she was. But, but the essay is basically helping a man try and understand what it would be like to live in a world where women dominated everything. That was the intent of the essay. So you're saying somehow you heard about that essay while you were at the U. Okay.

JoCee Porter [01:38:51] And I, I looked around and I was like, I'm the only woman in every single room every single day, every single class, every single internship. I'm the only woman in the room. What would they do if the position was switched? Right? And like, I had like that thought and it's like, and why, why am I in this position every single day? Why am I the only woman? And, and is this fair? Is this, this doesn't make sense. Because I feel like I'm important. And I've been taught my entire life that I'm important, yet women aren't important. And this didn't sit well with me. And so when I started kind of unraveling, Mormonism was where it's like, well, there's only men in leadership. What? You know, and being like a 12 year old boy has more authority than me. What? Like, I cannot give my future family a priesthood blessing. What? You know, like, even as faithful as I thought I was trying to be, and as, as great of a person as I wanted to be, I would be barred from giving my future children a blessing when they were sick because I was female. That was the reasoning. And so I kind of started like learning about like, you know, Kate Kelly and like, why can't women get the priesthood? And asking these simple questions that aren't very crazy questions, like, why, why are women blocked from this? And black people were also blocked Right. Why were they blocked? You know, and racism kind of correlates with the country and the country I live in. Sexism kind of also does too.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Wow.

JoCee Porter [01:40:23] This makes a lot of sense. Right? And understanding that. And that's how I started breaking that down in that it just wasn't working for me. And so I had to move away from it even further in order to respect myself. And so I started looking within my life and, and seeing where the sexism took place and seeing where I had truly internalized these sexist messages that were kind of unfair. And a lot of it was like, you need to be a mother. Right? Engineering's cute, but you'll give it up soon when you get your Mrs. Degree, because that's way more important than your computer engineering degree. And I started breaking down these barriers and questioning why I felt like I couldn't pursue these degrees full heartedly. And I also had like a few unfair experiences as well, especially when I was pursuing finance and when I was traveling across the world to pursue finance. These were Mormon investors that I was mostly talking to. And they would stop me and they would ask me, they're like, Wall Street's a really hard career to get into. And I'd be like, I know, and that's why I want to do it. You know, like, it's going to be great. And they're going to be, well, how are you going to have a family and be on Wall Street? And like, these questions were asked many times and my dad warned me that they would be asked. Right. And so I'm kind of, you know, did they ask men those questions? You know, like, why can't I be on Wall street and also have kids and also make money? And also like, why am I shoved into this tiny hole of a person when I want to accomplish so much, much more? And so that's what I started breaking down. And then looking into my past and looking, it's like, wow, the church has a certain template for women and that template doesn't work for me. And it's a very sexist template. And by divine design, the Lord said himself that woman's place is in the home and man is outside the home. And I can't fight with God. So I just need to turn away from this God entirely because that, that's not the God that I can believe in. Because I know I'm a capable, confident, want to do interesting things. Women, right. And I need to be able to be that. And I can't within the constraints of Mormonism.

Rylee Porter [01:42:38] Yeah, that's powerful.

John Dehlin [01:42:41] And let me just ask. That all makes perfect sense to me. The fact that in 2023 there's not daily, hourly outrage that, that still only men can hold the priesthood within mormonism like in 2023. It just seems ridiculous. So all that makes sense to me, however, whether it's, you know, Christine Hagland or Jana Reese or Rosalind Welch or, you know, there's a Nihla McBain, there's a ton of progressive feminist believing Mormon women that are like, oh, yeah, down with the patriarchy. Go women feminists. Great. But the church is true. Joseph Smith was a prophet in the Book of Mormon. And I've had my spiritual experiences where I can never deny the faithfulness of the church. Like, you can have a feminist awakening but still retain all your orthodox, literalistic Mormon beliefs, but that's not what happened to you. Do you have any insight as to why you weren't able to just become a believing Mormon faith feminist woman?

JoCee Porter [01:43:46] Right, and that's a good, good question and a good point because I, and I, I think that, like, amount of cognitive dissonance is, is what a lot of great people have. And, and that's good or bad, but I kind of like, people go down the rabbit hole of, like, discovering the history of Mormonism. I went down the rabbit hole of discovering the history of feminism. And this is like, Amy's a big hero of mine. And shout out to her because she started this Breaking Down Patriarchy podcast. And I just binge listen to that podcast, like, all the time and just like, learned about the progression of feminist thought and the constructs that were built to keep women in their place over time and how they still exist now. But why didn't that work with me within Mormonism itself? Well, while I was diving into the history of the country, I can't help but also stumble on the history of, of certain aspects of Mormonism that I find interesting. And I wasn't looking for anything bad. I wasn't going out of my way to find anything negative.

John Dehlin [01:44:44] But it's like, you have to justify. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:44:47] Anti Mormon literature.

JoCee Porter [01:44:49] And I'm still justifying it now. That wasn't the goal.

Rylee Porter [01:44:54] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:44:55] But as I'm learning about the history of women throughout the country, I'm also learning about the history of Mormonism because. Because Utah has a very feminist rich history. If people don't know that. Right. Women in Utah were the first group to get the right to vote because they wanted them to vote against polygamy. Right. So when you start learning about the history of feminism in this very deep way you get introduced in the history of Mormonism because of that strong connection of polygamy and Utah women voting and the fact that they were such advocates for women to vote and then like took it away from the women. It's very fascinating story.

Rylee Porter [01:45:30] Well, I think that's a power thing. I've got to say something about that because that's always been something that's irritated me about Mormonism is that we claim, oh, we're this really progressive feminist culture, we gave women the opportunity to vote. And the way that I read history and the books that I've read, I've inter, like entirely reject that because I think it was a way for men who were telling all of their wives what to vote for, that they were over represented in the House of Representatives and in Congress because they had more votes, they were telling their women how to vote. You know, it's that interesting dichotomy of that gilded cage where we're going to let you participate in political. In the political sphere as long as it perpetuate our agenda.

JoCee Porter [01:46:10] Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:11] It wasn't a feminist play, it was a voting play.

Rylee Porter [01:46:13] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:46:14] Power play.

JoCee Porter [01:46:14] Yeah, exactly.

Rylee Porter [01:46:15] When you have five women to every women. Yeah, yeah. Five women to every man, you want those folks.

Rylee Porter [01:46:21] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:46:21] But so when you study feminist history, you quickly get into polygamy. Right?

Rylee Porter [01:46:25] That's what I was gonna say.

JoCee Porter [01:46:26] The rabbit hole of polygamy. You get into Mormon history. And then that once I read Mormon history, I was like, okay, this is obviously not good, you know, not correct.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] So if you don't mind slowing down on that part, what did you study in Mormon history that was disturbing to you or troubling?

Rylee Porter [01:46:42] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:46:43] So it started with polygamy. Right. Because that's why women got the first right to vote.

Confronting Church History and Losing Belief

Rylee Porter [01:46:46] Well, I have a question real quick. First, because did you know about, about polygamy before this?

JoCee Porter [01:46:50] I did and I, I kind of justified it. In fact, my mom was the first person to correct me because I was like, oh, polygamy. They were just doing that so that like men could protect the women. And my mom was like, that's not correct. And this was like, I was pretty young, 14.

Rylee Porter [01:47:04] Right. Our mom always had an issue with polygamy. As she should. And was not right.

JoCee Porter [01:47:08] Exactly.

Rylee Porter [01:47:09] And was unabashedly. Yeah. So she.

JoCee Porter [01:47:11] So I knew about it, but then like justified. Provide that away.

John Dehlin [01:47:15] But so, but your mom said that narrative you've been told, that there was just too many women and too few men, and so the men had to take on extra wives, which is what we were all taught growing up, right? You, your mom told you that wasn't true, right?

JoCee Porter [01:47:28] Okay, yeah, yeah, she's the one that told me that wasn't true because I was like defending it and she's like, that's not true. Which is good for her.

Rylee Porter [01:47:35] But yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:47:35] So I learned about the history of polygamy and I was like, well, what was like moral Mormon's kind of view on polygamy? Why was this such a big deal? And then like you quickly go into Joseph Smith's polygamy story and like the start of polygamy and the fact that he's like marrying these 14 year old girls and like that's problematic. And like these sister wives and that's problematic. And these mother daughter duos and that's problematic. And it became gross to me pretty quickly. And then once you start down that rabbit hole, you get on like all the rabbit holes, right? Where like Mountain Meadow Mass. Mountain Meadow Massacre. Right. And that's problematic. And the blacks in the priesthood and owning slaves and that's problematic. And so many things are problematic that.

John Dehlin [01:48:17] Did you, did you get into Book of Mormon, like as a person who cares about science, did you get into historicity, the Book of Mormon DNA anachronisms? And did you get into Book of Abraham and Egyptology and that kind of stuff?

JoCee Porter [01:48:28] I never kind of got as much into like the Abraham stuff, but yeah, the fact that like there's the DNA evidence and that the Mormon Church was so against evolution for a long time that the narrative was like, Joseph Smith and Darwin were born the same year. One was righteous, one wasn't. Right. Like, and like it's like, no, I believe in evolution and that wasn't a doubt in my mind. You know, we should make T shirts.

Rylee Porter [01:48:50] Darwin is my prophet.

John Dehlin [01:48:51] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:48:55] And so yeah, I started like reading novella like you know, and, and it's not like DNA is new. We knew that where the trans, where the train of people came from before DNA, you know, like there was other evidence that was just kind of the final nail in the coffin. So yeah, I started like looking into all of that and then like the anachrosms that like evolution doesn't work the way it's supposed to and you're missing a lot of things and once you start it, you just can't stop in a lot of ways.

Rylee Porter [01:49:23] Well, and that was speaking to kind of the inaccuracies of the Book of Mormon. And this, if I, if I can, and this is a judgment statement, tell me if this is inaccurate because this is kind of how I understand it is be. Because the church, in my experience, was truly so doctrinally informed that, like, the. The inaccuracies of the Book of Mormon and the anachrous anachronisms where, like, there weren't horses and stuff like that, that was much more faith foundational shaking in my experience. And then I like, you know, was like, kinderhook plates and, you know, the translation of Nephi or the translation of Joseph Smith, and in second Nephi, he condemns polygamy outright and then starts practicing it on the side. Like, all of those things were, like, meaningful mind benders to me. Where a lot of Josie's experience was was, again, kind of this cultural fusion. Right. Because that's where she was is like, where Utah. All she talked about was temple marriage and families and eternal family. Like, all of these really kind of like, how to socially show up and fit within the cultural confines of Mormonism that I think the feminist aspect resonated so much more with her experience where, like. Like, I felt like when I first started talking with her, and I was like, well, did you know about this? And did you know about this? That's not really was the sticking point for her as much, because her testimony was built on temple marriages and the proclamation of the family and these, like, gender roles things. So once, like, the breaking of the gender roles and the understanding that these patriarchal confines keep you in a box, that was way more meaningful to her than, like, the foundational Mormon stuff. That was what broke my brain.

JoCee Porter [01:51:15] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:51:16] Does that feel. Does that feel right?

Rylee Porter [01:51:18] It does.

JoCee Porter [01:51:18] I mean, I'm, like, very curious into, like, the science behind it, but, like, once I was like, women are not in charge, and they'll never be in charge, therefore, bad organization. Right. Like, that's the only algorithm that I needed to make at the time. And now I look back at it, I'm like, yeah, it's very interesting. And let's talk about the fact that there's a lot of other reasons why this is not correct.

Rylee Porter [01:51:35] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:51:35] How a flood couldn't have happened.

JoCee Porter [01:51:37] Right. Right. Where did the water go? I don't know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] Well, that's a very important pathway to disaffection, where you experience cultural or social injustice. For some, it's feminism. For some, it's LGBTQ stuff. For some, it's both. And it's almost the cultural and social justice. It's the cultural and the social justice experiences that then precede the intellectual awakening.

JoCee Porter [01:52:06] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:52:06] Well, and you're so right. And that's an awareness that I had to come to because that was almost a point of pride for me where I was like, I can tell you doctrinally why this is conflicting and doesn't work. And I kind of discredited Josie and also some of like my younger compatriots where like, they just left because of social reasons. And I was like, yes, the social reasons are disgusting and let that be the, be the, be the beginning of your exit strategy. But does it matter to you that the doctrine is also conflicting and, and like, no, it's just that they don't treat people equally and that's enough. That needs to be enough. Like, I had to learn that. Riley, nobody cares that much. Like, only certain people are going to be that thoroughly interested in the doctrinal inaccuracy and the hypocrisy. But for other people, just that they can exist as they can identify as queer safely within this community, they can't show up as a woman and as a full bodied human and be both, you know, an achiever and a mother, that they can't fit into these social norms. And if that makes you unsafe, that's enough to leave. You don't have to justify it by like the theological debate that I felt like I had to have for years, you know, and now I see that with like kids today where it's like, they don't like how, you know, things are working socially for them and that's more than enough.

Rylee Porter [01:53:35] Yeah, that's right.

JoCee Porter [01:53:36] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:37] But what's kind of super weird and distressing to me is your shame parade experience as a teen should have been enough for you to say, this is awful. I'm being treated horribly for doing normal developmental things and I'm super depressed, so this all must be messed up. But as a teenager you're taught that there's no acceptable way to leave. It's gotta be you that's the problem. So I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, social justice, yeah, historicity and science, but forget and ignore your own lived experience that was leading to depression and endless shame and misery for you.

JoCee Porter [01:54:24] It's like a good observation that I hadn't put together. Like, yeah, that wasn't the breaker for me. It was the fact that I didn't have a full functioning future that was the breaker for me. And now looking back, I can see that. And why did I, I stay even though it was like so hard? It's a good question.

Rylee Porter [01:54:44] Well, you're a kid, right?

John Dehlin [01:54:46] But, but, but there's also this Idea of church over family. And we talked about it at the end of. Of your episode as well, Riley. But like another scenario very well could have been. Well, I love my sister, Riley, and we've been through a lot together and she's smart and she's spunky and she's found out some problems. I wonder what. Why it's not working for her. Let me go to her and learn about what's going on. Riley, tell me all the reasons this isn't working for you. Oh my gosh, I love you. I love you more than my church. If this isn't working for you and if they're treating you this bad, then it's not going to work for me. Again, a thought that probably never entered your mind of family over church, right?

JoCee Porter [01:55:28] Never, never, never. And like I say, I became, became the exact person that I, like, didn't want to be or despise now because like, for Riley it was just like, well, I don't really care what you believe in now because whatever is, it's wrong, you know, like, you got it.

Rylee Porter [01:55:42] Even though I was very much right, I wanted on record that I was very much right. We had, we had a fun coming together, but.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:55:49] Did you ever see me as a credible source?

Rylee Porter [01:55:52] No.

JoCee Porter [01:55:52] Like, Riley was, was never a credible source. And even though, like, and I, I don't know, did we like each other back in high school? I don't think we did. A little bit maybe. Yeah. But like, it was just so much like anger and frustration that that wasn't allowed to. She was allowed to be a credible source and her story wasn't important or like, wasn't worth listening to. And a lot of ways that I now am on the experience, like, receiving side of. Right. Like, because it's not like anyone asked me what I believe, you know, like, they're just like, oh, you don't believe in Mormonism?

John Dehlin [01:56:23] Them?

JoCee Porter [01:56:24] We'll be here when you come back, you know, kind of situation, which is what I was to Riley. And, and so I have a lot of empathy for Riley and then maybe a little bit of understanding for the people that aren't curious and, and don't think to ask because they're so entrenched into this culture, in this cult to not know. To ask these questions or to not know how to appropriately love people.

Rylee Porter [01:56:47] Yeah. One thing I just, I do think, think that's worth mentioning is just how vulnerable children are to systems, you know, and so we could say that with the church system, I think it's also true of family Systems. And so I just, I have all the compassion for how chill. It's not like as a child you get to like look around your family or you know, look at like how the church and you're like, you know what? I think I'm gonna head down to the Smiths. I'm out. I'm gonna go and I'm gonna pick that family. Cause I like their, you know, you don't have the resources to do that. You're kind of trapped. And so really what it's about is survival. And we, I, I just, I kind of say it a lot on Mormon stories, but we, we should not judge how we survive. When we come to and when we're aware and when we kind of reflect and look back, hey, it's a beautiful thing to say, hey, some of those things, they no longer honor me. And so I'm going to choose different things. But like you both tried to survive in environments, you know, that at some point you were really suffering in, you know, and we can just say, well done, like you're here. It worked. You know, and now we work on the healing and we work on you kind of. But like all the love and all the, you know, honoring of you getting through some really hard things. And also in that vein, like you had every reason to kind of look at what happened to your older sister and all the mayhem and all that. And to say, I think I'm gonna choose another way to work. You know, that makes all the sense in the world to say, wow, I experienced, you know, and witnessed all of that. Maybe I'm not going to do that.

Rylee Porter [01:58:46] So I'll try.

John Dehlin [01:58:47] Meaning not leave the church.

Rylee Porter [01:58:49] Meaning.

Rylee Porter [01:58:49] Yeah, and be. Not overt about it and be, you know, less like in a way integrated. You had more of a public self and then like a private self. And that public self was designed to keep you safe and to keep you included, to get you on finance trips and to give you some of the opportunities. Yeah. That you recognized, like, you know, there was a loss in family support, a real cut off. And so that is abs. That makes all the sense in the world. And we shouldn't have judgment about that. It's sort of like, I'm just saying it makes absolute sense how you navigated your situation in your teen years and saying, okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually work a middle ground here.

John Dehlin [01:59:33] Yeah. Oh yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:59:34] And that there was like some pain there. But I like to kind of bring up the survival aspect. Right. Because we don't choose that. No, it's not a conscious choice like, oh, let me see, and I'm gonna. It's literally we react in ways to survive, and we're just grasping at things.

Rylee Porter [01:59:51] It's so insightful.

John Dehlin [01:59:53] It's systems. But also one framing is that Riley paved the way for you to be able to leave the church. But another framing is that it was extra courageous for you to be willing to consider leaving the church after seeing how your parents treated Riley and after seeing how much pain Riley. And these aren't the right words, but also from your parents point of view, how much pain Riley caused your parents and your family. You could look at it either way. That Riley made it easier for you.

Rylee Porter [02:00:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:26] Or that it was extra courageous for you to be willing to even consider taking that step, knowing how much pain Riley caused you.

Rylee Porter [02:00:33] Such a good point.

JoCee Porter [02:00:34] I. I feel like Riley gave. Showed me what would happen. Right. In a lot of ways. And so, like, I was extra careful. Right. So, like, so I'm married, and I feel like I talked about, like, my high school boyfriend, so I want to, like, talk about how much I love my husband as well. When we did move in together, we kept a secret because I saw what happened when Riley moved in with her boyfriend, and it was bad.

Rylee Porter [02:00:56] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:00:57] So I didn't tell. We didn't tell anyone. And, like, it was. It made sense. We needed to do it. You know, we both couldn't afford our individual places, and we were already engaged. Right. And so we moved in and we didn't tell anyone. Right. And it was eventually found out, and it was more accepted than when it happened with Riley. I feel like the shock.

Rylee Porter [02:01:16] She.

JoCee Porter [02:01:17] They shocked. She shocked my parents. So when I did it, it was less shocking, and therefore their reactions were better. But, yeah, I absolutely hid that from my parents and from my family because I did not want to go through what she did. I could not be cut off from health insurance. Right. I could not be cut off from car insurance at that time, and that's what happened to her.

John Dehlin [02:01:36] You were cut off from health insurance and car insurance.

Rylee Porter [02:01:39] Yeah. Yeah. And the health insurance was contingent on the church's employment. Right. So that does not cover contraception and birth control or any of that. So, yeah, I. I was living with, you know, my high school boyfriend, which I like. Or, sorry, my college boyfriend. You feel like such a child. Yeah. Living with my college boyfriend, obviously starting to become, you know, sexually active and. And went to go get a contraception that was not covered. That. That was a big bill. It was an event in our family where I Could no longer access those health benefits because that's not something that was covered by Deseret Mutual, which is a Mormon health insurance company. And then obviously, I costed them a lot of money on car insurance because I had accidents and wrecks and I was like a reckless teenage driver and cost my parents a lot of. I cost my parents a lot of money. Money to the point where that, like, I'm. They. They had some. Right. I'm sure to. I mean, like, yeah, I. They paid for a lot of things before they said no more. And also, if you're going to live with your boyfriend and act like an adult, then be an adult, then grow up and be an adult.

JoCee Porter [02:02:54] Yeah, I got too. Right. And was fearful of any. I eventually got. Was like, if you're gonna act like an adult, you're gonna be an adult and like, pay for. For these things. But, yeah, absolutely hit it because of these things that she went through.

Rylee Porter [02:03:06] I think that's so important because you do see that as well, where, you know, you can be honest about it and you get punished or you have this other way, which is like that. Yep, I'll show you. And then I'll drive the rest underground. And it goes underground. And there's a cost scenario, I think, for the person that way because you. You basically, you're living a split life. Right. As opposed to an integrated life. But yeah, it doesn't really prevent.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] But it should always be a red flag to people when religions cause family members to lie to their family members. Because people might always. Not always tell the truth, but religion should never create an environment where family members have to hide and lie to other family members. There's just no excuse for religion to do that, I think.

Rylee Porter [02:03:58] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:03:59] Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, agreed.

Coming Out as Non-Believers to Family

John Dehlin [02:04:03] Okay. So you move in with your boyfriend.

Rylee Porter [02:04:05] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:04:06] And we've been married for five years now. And that's lovely.

Rylee Porter [02:04:10] That did bother me a little bit when I learned that, you know, mom and dad were totally supportive of Josie living with her soon to be husband. But I think that, yeah. And they found out.

JoCee Porter [02:04:20] They responded a lot better.

Rylee Porter [02:04:21] And they responded really well. They learned a lot. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:04:25] But.

Rylee Porter [02:04:25] And I also. I think that they were so much more supportive of her relationship because her husband is a truly incredible human being.

JoCee Porter [02:04:32] They love him. And so I think that also helps that he also, you know, we both can play the part, I suppose, and get the affection. That's necessary.

Rylee Porter [02:04:41] Well, and they saw that I didn't want anything to do with the family, and I know that they carried a lot of guilt with that and that. So they weren't going to lose Josie. They were going to start maintaining the relationship at all costs. And some of these things, you know what, maybe they don't matter as much as the relationship matters.

JoCee Porter [02:04:57] So there's a lot of maturity difference. And we both went through the exact same experiences. And four years apart. We had different experiences growing up. And my parents changed in different parents.

Rylee Porter [02:05:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] But first, kids often take the hit for the subsequent kids.

JoCee Porter [02:05:13] I do not envy you. But she paved the way.

Rylee Porter [02:05:16] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:05:16] I think if I was the first one to move in with my boyfriend or fiance at the time, it would have been tough. Right. Like it. You paved the way in a lot of ways. I didn't have to.

John Dehlin [02:05:25] So that was a thank you, I think.

JoCee Porter [02:05:28] Thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Rylee Porter [02:05:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:31] So who was the first family member you told that you didn't believe anymore? And how did that conversation go?

JoCee Porter [02:05:37] That's a really good question.

Rylee Porter [02:05:40] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:05:40] And that's a really good. And I kind of want to put the record straight a little bit because I feel like I started, like, leaving the church when I got married. Right. And I didn't have a Mormon wedding, but I also didn't have a wedding.

John Dehlin [02:05:50] Did you have to explain that to your parents, why you weren't getting married in the temple? Like, that was the whole point.

JoCee Porter [02:05:54] Right, Right. And yes and no. Right. Because they knew that my husband wasn't Mormon and he.

John Dehlin [02:06:00] Oh, he wasn't Mormon.

JoCee Porter [02:06:01] Well, he had openly turned away from the church at the age of like, 19. Right.

Rylee Porter [02:06:06] So he didn't go on a mission. That was a big deal in his family. Active.

JoCee Porter [02:06:10] He never planned on being active. He was outward. I don't want anything to do with.

John Dehlin [02:06:14] He was righty, basically.

Rylee Porter [02:06:16] He was right. And he was the oldest as well.

JoCee Porter [02:06:19] He was the oldest.

Rylee Porter [02:06:21] I think that's why Jaden and I get along so swimmingly is he's also the oldest and. Yeah, you did. You married me.

JoCee Porter [02:06:28] For sure. For sure. You and she twins.

John Dehlin [02:06:35] Sorry.

JoCee Porter [02:06:35] No, he.

Rylee Porter [02:06:36] He.

JoCee Porter [02:06:36] It's not like he was. Like, he was pretty anti. Like, he was not into the church at all. And he has his own story to tell. But he was so respectful of me and my situation. Right. So at this time, I wasn't drinking. I wasn't drinking coffee. I wasn't attending. And I was starting to, like, go into, like, my feminist kind of like rabbit holes a little bit. But, like, wasn't like, being like, I think the church is wrong. I was still in a place where it's like, Okay, I, I had made mistakes previously where I had dated people that were Mormon and that didn't work out. And I had made great experiences where I dated great people and that did work out. And so I found a great person and he wasn't Mormon, but I was like, he's the person I'm gonna pick and I'm gonna make it work. And I actually was under the impression that I would, like, be the single person that went to the church because I kind of see my dad do that. Right. It's not like my mom is very active in the church. My dad goes by himself and he's very respected in the community and that works out for them and that's fine. And you can still have kids with morals. And I kind of saw that. So that's what I thought we would be. And so I talked to Jaden and he'll, you know, he'll share this story too. But I was like, I think I'm gonna raise our future kids in the church, if that's okay with you. And do you have any qualms with that? And he's like, no, I just don't want to be involved in it. If you think it's the moral right thing to do, do that. I'm gonna let you go through this transition and raise kids how you think is best and we'll approach it when, when that time comes. So that's 100% thought what I thought would happen. So I knew I was not going to get married in the temple, but I was okay with that because I believed in an all loving God that would make that okay in the end. Right. That's the God that I believed in and thought about and knew about. And so like, he was a great guy and that's what mattered to me at the time.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] So there was no discussion with your parents. Like, you're falling away. You're not marrying the temple. You're disappointing us. You're not marrying a returned missionary priesthood holder. You never had that conversation?

JoCee Porter [02:08:25] Not like that, no, certainly not. But they certainly asked whether or not he was active and what my plans were to have kids in the covenant. And they're like, well, you're not gonna have kids in the covenant. It's like, I know that, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna have kids that aren't Mormon or aren't gonna get baptized and don't believe. So I had that conversation with my dad where it's like, I still plan on it and if Jadin comes back, great. If he doesn't great. I'm gonna respect him. He's the person. But I'm gonna have Mormon kids. But we had that conversation. Just not like, I'm disappointed in you. Meet Jaden and you love him because he's a great guy. So I don't think they could in good conscience have that kind of conversation.

John Dehlin [02:09:02] I just want to note that for many orthodox Mormon parents, that's the worst disaster that could ever happen is your kid not marrying in the temple.

JoCee Porter [02:09:10] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:09:11] That's why I struggled to. I wanted to define orthodox from the beginning because, like, orthodox leaving nuanced living. Right. Because my. My parents didn't get married in the temple. They got sealed in the temple later, and I was born underneath the covenant. But they had a much more, like, nuanced view of the world. Their worldview was wider, you know, and kind of like, more all encompassing. Yeah. And I feel like they felt there wasn't just, like, one template for everyone because they had lived different templates and still continue to live different templates that aren't like a one size, fit all, everything. There is one thing, though, that I want to say that always kind of bothered me about, like, being someone who's left the church because it always felt a little bit condescending. But the way that I heard our parents talk about Jaden and the way I heard our parents talk about me was like, but they could come back. Like, there's no, like, respect for that you've left. And that's like the end of the conversation to them. It's like the. This difficult phase that you're coming through, but you'll come to your senses. And that always felt incredibly dismissive.

JoCee Porter [02:10:20] I think that's a real lived experience for sure. And something that was often said to Jaden, and I might have even made the mistake in saying it as well. And I do apologize if that's the case, because I'm sure I had some sort of inkling of a belief, if I'm being completely honest with me, that, like, with myself, that, like, it would be okay because, like, God would figure out in the end and maybe Jaden would change his mind or maybe not. But, yeah, Jaden was completely respectful of allowing me to explore this, which is really incredible.

John Dehlin [02:10:52] So you got married outside the temple. It was an Ensign Peak wedding, right?

Rylee Porter [02:10:57] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:10:57] So, yeah, I allowed my dad to invite his friends to the wedding. And that up being a lot of Enzyme Peak people a lot. And then a lot of investors I had met over the years who were investors with Enzyme Peak. So they flew in from New York and Pennsylvania and California to attend my wedding, which was great because I was poor and they wrote big checks for me, so I appreciated that. But also weird because now, like, my wedding kind of turned into a business meeting a little bit for myself as well as for my dad. And so I have like, mixed feelings

John Dehlin [02:11:30] talking about investments or.

JoCee Porter [02:11:32] I think my dad hung out with his friends more than he hung out with his family. You know, like my family was also there. And. And I don't think he really spoke to my grandma and grandpa, you know.

Rylee Porter [02:11:41] Oh, he spoke to grandma and grandpa. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:11:43] But there was a lot of attention. Right, right.

Rylee Porter [02:11:50] Exec officiated the wedding.

JoCee Porter [02:11:52] Yes. And. And so we needed someone to officiate our wedding. And so, yeah, my dad asked if I wanted this bishop to officiate who worked at Ensign Peak, and I said yes. And respectful of my husband. We were like, we don't want it to be Mormon affiliated at all. Please remove any Mormon references. Are you comfortable doing that? And yeah, so. And Ensign Peak employee officiated my wedding even.

John Dehlin [02:12:15] And David and Carly would have been there.

Rylee Porter [02:12:17] They were there.

JoCee Porter [02:12:18] Yeah, yeah, they were there. Dave and Carly were there. A lot of them. The CIO of Ensign Peak was there.

John Dehlin [02:12:24] A lot of.

JoCee Porter [02:12:25] Of people from Ensign Peak were there, which is very kind. It was, it was an act of support and that's what that was for. Sure.

Rylee Porter [02:12:32] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:12:33] But yeah, an Enzyme Peak wedding. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:12:37] That's awesome. Okay. So like that kind of, I guess Riley would have prepared your parents for the eventuality of you leaving in some ways and then you marrying a nun, in a sense a non Mormon and not getting married in the temple. It was just like that. The chips were, you know, the cracks were happening. The chips were happening. Maybe, you know, that lessened the ultimate blow when it came, if it ever

JoCee Porter [02:13:04] came to like tell them. Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point. Like, when did it come? And I.

Rylee Porter [02:13:12] Well, when did Jaden get his records removed?

JoCee Porter [02:13:15] I don't know. He stopped believing when he was 19.

Rylee Porter [02:13:20] Okay.

JoCee Porter [02:13:20] Following to get the records removed?

John Dehlin [02:13:22] No.

Rylee Porter [02:13:22] Okay.

JoCee Porter [02:13:23] Just like turned away from it kind of situation.

John Dehlin [02:13:27] So was there ever a conversation with your dad or mom that I don't believe anymore and I. I won't be coming back to church?

JoCee Porter [02:13:32] Yep, there certainly was. I.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] How long ago was that?

JoCee Porter [02:13:36] And it wasn't like, just like a. Hey, I no longer believe. It was more like. And I feel bad cuz this is not the way to approach these things. Especially when you have like a loving parent. I like dad, you work for the church. Explain these lists of complaints I have and I like read off everything that didn't make sense to me. And I was like, justified, justified. Justify this, justify this, justify this.

John Dehlin [02:13:56] Just give us a sense.

JoCee Porter [02:13:57] Why did Joseph smith marry a 14 year old and why was that 14 year old living with him? That was a big one, right? That was a huge one in my mind. Why don't women have the priesthood? Why don't I deserve the priesthood? Please explain to me why I will never be worthy enough for the priesthood. That was probably where I got the most hung up on is woman in the priesthood. And explain to me why I will never be worthy. Why do I not deserve to give my child, a patriarch, a father's blessing or a mother's blessing at that point? Why don't we pray to a mother goddess? If we talk about God the creator, I don't know what man, you know, that's created something. But I know a lot of women that have created something. So why aren't we talking about women more in this context? Right? Why is she protecting. That's benevolent sexism. Do you know what benevolent sexism is? Because I feel like there's a lot of it in my childhood. Those were the tough conversations that I had one day. And I think he got the message that I no longer believed.

John Dehlin [02:14:49] And did he try and give you the apologetic responses? I mean, Riley talked a little bit about her, about Jeff's, your dad's attempts to resolve her concerns. Did he try the apologetic stuff with you at all?

JoCee Porter [02:15:03] Yeah, absolutely. And he would like talk me through it and I'd be like. And, and then I'd get frustrated because I'd get confused and I'd be like, okay, that makes sense, that makes sense, that makes sense. But wait a second. And then I'd step away from it and I'd be like, wait a second, I found the hole. That doesn't make sense anymore. And then I'd have to go back to him and be like, well now there's a hole in this argument now justify that. And he would justify that and I'd step away and I'd be like, wait a second, that doesn't make sense anymore. And so I kind of followed these things over and over and over again. And that's kind of. And then we started like kind of fighting, which is kind of stuff sad because like my dad went from being like my best friend, right? Who I talked to all the time, commuted to with hours, he would call Riley my name because he was talking to me on the phone so much I wanted to go into finance for him. And I was like, to be like, you represent an organization or you uphold an organization, or you financially enable an organization that I fundamentally believe is wrong and corrupt. Right. The corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ does not have any women on their board of directors. Directors. Therefore it is a bad organization. Right. And you support this. But I'm a woman and why aren't you picking me? And so like there was like a huge kind of shredding at that point where I, I lost that father said

John Dehlin [02:16:17] those things to him.

JoCee Porter [02:16:18] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:16:20] Because it. One of the most heartbreaking things I've ever experienced on like these faith crisis retreats we've done in the past is when the Nephi's who are used to being the favorites, who are used to be being viewed by their parents and all the love and the attention for being Nephi, when they fall from grace in their parents eyes, it's. They sob. Because it's one thing to be layman, it's another thing to be Nephi and then fallen status. And that's very, very difficult. What was it like for you?

JoCee Porter [02:16:56] Right. No, it was really difficult, but I had to, it was really, really difficult and like to like lose who I considered my best friend too.

Rylee Porter [02:17:03] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:17:03] Because like in my mind he chose this organization that doesn't like women over his daughter. And that's how I portrayed it unfairly at the time because I was just angry and hurt and that's kind of what I was focusing on. And I, and I acknowledge now that that was very unfair for, for me to put that narrative into play because the world's way more complex than that. But it was so hard going away from it that like again, maybe my coping mechanism is just quitting because I was like, I'm done with finance, I'm not gonna do this anymore. I don't care for your approval any longer. Like, I see what you're doing as somewhat hurtful because you're upholding this organization that hurts women. And I'm a woman, so therefore it hurts me. And so I stopped doing finance. And I have haven't done anything finance related since I didn't go on an internship. I was supposed to kind of just like turned away from that entirely and started pursuing something different. And I stopped using those contacts because I didn't want anything to do with my dad for a while or anything to do with what I thought he embodied as not only a high outstanding member of the church, but also as an Investor for Ensign Peak because you're financially enabling this organization to continue existing. And that was really hard, and it's still really hard for me. And we're repairing the relationship slowly. But it's such complex feelings to exist in one person, that they're complex feelings, and people are complex. And that's the story I want to tell, is that he's complex, I'm complex, our relationship's complex, and we need to deal with that. But it's hard and it's messy, and we went through good times and bad times, and that's certainly a bad time.

John Dehlin [02:18:39] I mean, on the one hand, your. Your best friend, so to speak, he's kind and loving. He's been super supportive of you. And people are allowed to have their personal beliefs.

JoCee Porter [02:18:49] Right?

John Dehlin [02:18:49] Right. Like, all over the world, people have their personal beliefs. That's kind of one hand. And then on the other hand, and you love him. And then on the other hand, he is funding the harm and the abuse from your perspective at that point. Point.

Rylee Porter [02:19:04] Right.

John Dehlin [02:19:05] And. But what a tragic thing to see a religion, a set of beliefs, shatter the status of your relationship at that point.

Rylee Porter [02:19:15] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:19:16] It seems tragic, and it was really tragic. And. And I think we all go through the seven stages of mourning when you go through this, like, separation from this belief that you hold so fundamentally. And. But it led to some good things.

Rylee Porter [02:19:29] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:19:29] So, like, I stopped pursuing finance. My husband and I left Utah because I was like, this isn't the place. Women aren't respected here. I need to get out to a place where I think I can be a fully formed person. And so we left Utah and, like, separated. Had to. Had to physically separate from my family to feel kind of some sort of relief or breath of fresh air for a second.

John Dehlin [02:19:51] But just to be clear, you didn't just lose your faith, you lost the relationship you had with your dad at the time, which is a double devastation, Right?

JoCee Porter [02:20:01] Absolutely. And I think that's, like, the bigger hurt, honestly, and the bigger heartbreak. I feel like that would probably be like, you know, Riley talked about her heartbreak. You know, I feel like that would be, like, one of my heartbreaks is losing that relationship that I had and, like, how much I put my dad on a pedestal. Right. That hero that, like, was helping me out so much and could do so many things and was so powerful and was so cool, you know, and. And taught me. Taught me to be a cool Mormon and to separate the religion from the culture. And he taught me so many incredible things. He taught me to read and he, you know, and, and to be like, oh, but it's encapsulated in this thing that I just think is so ugly and so hard to. To be around that I just can't be around it anymore. And, and so I had to get away from

John Dehlin [02:20:52] like, I'm, I. And I, you know, I know David Nielsen just loves your dad too, I'm guessing. He's just an amazing human in just so many ways. I'm. I'm trying to put my brain in that spot of you starting to feel like he's not the enemy, but like supporting the enemy. Like, that's, that's. I don't think I've never had that. I've never had that happen personally. I don't think where someone I loved, I had that shift of perspective about them from they're amazing to their sleeping with the enemy. I, I don't even know that I know what that's like because I was the first in my family to lose my faith.

Rylee Porter [02:21:34] I guess I feel like there's like

JoCee Porter [02:21:36] a double whammy in sorts because I feel like I could. Like it's the fact that like, he still chooses to believe in an organization that's an unapologetic patriarchy. That's like the first, you know, that's the right hook. Right. And then the left hook is that not only does he believe in it, but it's his job. Right? Like, it's, he's helping enable the mission. So it's, it's more than just a belief at that point. It's. And so we have right hook, left hook. And that's hard to go through both of those at the exact same time. A lot harder than I think. If it was just a belief, then I'd be like, okay, you can have your belief griefs.

Rylee Porter [02:22:11] Yeah, I suppose.

John Dehlin [02:22:13] And Margi, you're nodding. Do you want to share? I'm curious what you're thinking and feeling because you seem to be really vibing with this part.

Rylee Porter [02:22:19] Oh, just feeling very much for how you're describing grief and how loss is showing up and you know why? It's complicated grief, really.

JoCee Porter [02:22:30] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:22:30] Yeah. And also just the feeling of like reaching a point where maybe your, your own ideas have evolved enough to be your own and you're standing in your own space and feeling disappointed by someone that you like. Just like you hold that younger version of you still. You're older, but like your 4 year old self and how you viewed your dad. Dad still lives in you somewhere, you know, and to hold that. And also at the same Time to feel sort of like disappointed that, I mean, on a level, his beliefs, yes. But also his privilege blinds him to seeing the. That his set of beliefs and his involvement work wise with an organization. Right. That it harms you, that it like, limits you. And, and that it actively like, yeah, harmed and harms.

JoCee Porter [02:23:37] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:23:38] Yes. Because we know those narratives and conditionings, even if we believe differently, oftentimes they live on in us. Right. Like they still come up for us, even if rationally we're in a new place. And you'd say, I don't believe, you know, that women should be small. But we're conditioned for years and years and years. And so sometimes we show up still. And you know what I mean? And that's what's hard when it's your dad. When it's your dad, you're like, fight for me. Like, why doesn't this bother you?

Rylee Porter [02:24:07] Choose me.

Rylee Porter [02:24:08] Like, it hurts me.

Rylee Porter [02:24:09] Choose me.

Rylee Porter [02:24:10] Right. And yes, it's not happening to you, but why isn't it enough that it's happening to me or to us? Fight for that. You know, Feel for that. Why don't you feel for that?

JoCee Porter [02:24:21] That.

Rylee Porter [02:24:21] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:24:22] I resonate that. Like, that's exactly, exactly. Encapsulate it. It's like, pick me. This hurts me. See how bad it's hurting me. And you're still choosing that.

Rylee Porter [02:24:32] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:24:32] I've heard it said once that like, privilege is thinking a problem isn't a problem because it's not your problem. And so I think, like, in a lot of ways, I think my dad struggles to understand why, like, the feministic hanging ups were so hard for Josie. But how could he understand that lived experience and all of those microaggressions that Josie experienced in the internalized cultural shift? Because that wouldn't have happened to him, even though he knew on a certain level it was going to happen. Right. He prepared her. Josie, we're going to talk to, you know, our elite, prestigious Mormon friends and like, there might be something said offhand about when you're going to get married and who you know, and when you're gonna start having babies and stuff. He knew enough to know that that existed within the system. But when you're not dealing with that every day and internalizing it the way that Josie did, the way that I did, you struggle to understand. I mean, same thing where, like, maybe in his mind, my reaction to the Utah Mormons was an outsized reaction because, like, it wasn't his problem. Right.

John Dehlin [02:25:38] He was living the Utah dream when he moved here. Right?

Rylee Porter [02:25:41] Yeah. And he already knew. He knew what it was gonna and didn't anticipate how much it would hurt us personally. And I think that's where the cognitive dissonance maybe struggles for him. It's like, wow, you were taking it really personally. And it's like, because this is personal for me, because this is my experience. Like, you talk to. See me as a person, see me as a. That my reality matters just because it doesn't match your reality. Exactly. This is my experience, and I need you to see me. And even though we were still able to have conversations and, you know, again, I decided to distance myself from the family. But when I needed him, I knew that I could call and I could always go back, you know, but it just becomes that much more layered and confusing when you think, God, why do we have to participate in this when it's causing different people problems and hurt the entire time? We always knew that the church caused my mom a lot of problems, be it social anxiety, be it her outspoken disagreements with polygamy, be, you know, all of these judgments that we felt that we didn't feel accepted moving into Utah, that, you know, we felt a lot of this judgment, like, why do we still have to operate within this system of pain with an added layer of. And you seem so complicit in this organization that causes pain for so many people, so much so that you make them an inordinate amount of money and continue to allow the power and influence to continue to openly be able to discriminate against people. I mean, you went to byu. You know that they use the term religious freedom to. To discriminate against the LGBTQ community or whatever. I know that you see these things. I know that you see these things. How can you still be complicit in this system? So much so that unbelievable amount of power and money I know that you directly accumulated to help this organization continue to hurt other people. How can you not see that it's hurting your own family?

JoCee Porter [02:27:58] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:27:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:00] There's this quote in Scarface, a movie without Al Pacino, where he basically says, first you get the money, then you get the power. Once you get the power, then you get the women. But the idea is that it starts with money.

JoCee Porter [02:28:13] Yeah.

Ensign Peak's Role in the Church and Their Father's Work

John Dehlin [02:28:14] So a really difficult thing that I. I'm wondering if you both feel is without the massive wealth that Ensign Peak helps accumulate for the church, the church doesn't have the power to do as much harm as they do. So not to pick on your dad, because it's systems, not people, and he's as Much of a victim as anybody, in a way. But in a sense, in a very real sense, your dad is helping fund the harm that the church causes people.

Rylee Porter [02:28:44] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:28:44] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:28:44] And it's hard to not to separate. Like, there's no way to separate that. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:28:49] And this is why I need advice from Gerardo. Right. How does he separate, you know, his love for his dad versus, like the. The banister that he upholds. That, like, just goes against him fundamentally. I struggle with it constantly. Like, I love my dad. I want to love my dad. I want to have a relationship with my dad. I don't want to have a broken family. But this is hurting and it's. It's not working for me.

Rylee Porter [02:29:12] It's so hard.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] I'm so sorry. And again, I know your dad's a great dad. Your mom's a great mom. You know, know they are.

JoCee Porter [02:29:21] And that's like what makes it. I don't know, that's what makes it confusing. Right. That's why it's so complicated.

Rylee Porter [02:29:27] And those two things, they're.

JoCee Porter [02:29:29] You.

Rylee Porter [02:29:30] You know, as you keep saying, in many ways they were great parents and they caused harm. And those two things make it super hard to reconcile.

Rylee Porter [02:29:40] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:29:41] Yeah, Right.

Rylee Porter [02:29:42] They both exist and they're both true.

JoCee Porter [02:29:44] Right.

John Dehlin [02:29:46] I'm seeing this meme going around on Instagram right now that sometimes ambiguous relationships are more traumatic than clearly abusive relationships. Because there's this love hate dynamic or this love abuse or soft abuse dynamic that allows the love, allows you to stay close and be connected and want to make it work. But then the abuse. And I'm not saying your dad's abusive, but do you see what I'm saying?

Rylee Porter [02:30:15] Or the harm.

John Dehlin [02:30:15] Sometimes these ambiguous relationships end up causing more harm than the ones that are just outright, clearly abusive. And, you know, to boundary the people. Or you just give up. Right?

JoCee Porter [02:30:26] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:30:26] Yeah. And then another factor into that equation is that. And, oh, and by the way, there's a hundred and plus billion dollars involved. Like, it just becomes like really overwhelming. Overwhelming really, really quickly. Yeah. And confusing.

JoCee Porter [02:30:41] I mean, I don't, like, I don't want to definitely turn away from the word abuse for sure. Right. Like, but it's. It's so confusing and so hard and

Rylee Porter [02:30:49] well, cover up for abuse. I mean, that was the last one that like, really where I thought, if any, if. If dad's gonna maybe find a way to transition out of this. I thought for sure the AP story of this, because there's no way to apologize that one away.

John Dehlin [02:31:07] The sexual abuse systemic cover up of child and Teen sexual abuse within Mormonism.

Rylee Porter [02:31:14] How do you justify that? You cannot. It is inexcusable. And that's where it becomes really tricky because it's like dad, there's a systemic organization here that is not in obscure ways, not in, in intangible ways, but in indirect lived ways from the ap. You know, like this is a credible source. This is well documented. It happened. You cannot explain this away. You cannot apologize this away. There has been cover ups that the church has done for sexual abuse within the system.

John Dehlin [02:31:54] Who.

Rylee Porter [02:31:55] And by the way, you're able to get away with that because you have like, like tithing money that can pay for people's litigation. I mean there's just no way to explain that one away. I mean like for me I thought that for sure it's been a long time since I've been. But that one was emotional. Like I was very worked up for a long time over that because we're talking about the abuse of children. I mean how explain to me how there's enough good in the world that this organization does that can justify complicity in that story.

Rylee Porter [02:32:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:28] And what's hard is how has the church survived? I, I'm told by inside sources that Curtin McCon an abuse is reported to Curtin McConkey hourly from somewhere around the world. Every hour of a professional working week, a new case of sexual abuse is reported to Curt McConkey. That's how much, that's how prevalent child and teen sexual abuse is within Mormonism. How. And we all know with the Boy Scouts of America that the church was willing to pay $750 million towards a boy Scouts of America abuse case because what, 60, 70,000 Mormon boys were sexually abused in the Mormon Boy Scout troops. How does any institution survive in this thrive with that legacy of abuse? There's one answer. A crap ton of money to pay a crap ton of lawyers and to pay off and to silence a crap ton of abuse victims, Right?

Rylee Porter [02:33:35] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:33:36] So it's it all, it's the money that's always the enabler. Not to again not to pick on anyone. But that's what's hard. It's the money that's the enabler.

Rylee Porter [02:33:44] Yeah. That there's a two tier justice system is absolutely the truth. And you have, you have enough money to get yourself out of certain situations. And we see the church do this again and again and again. And by the way, which church is this? The Church of Jesus Christ. I don't know how you can sit with that, or at least I can't anymore. And I. The other thing that sucks is I know that it causes the members themselves pain. And it's not fair to ask believing members who get so much value from this church to have to be okay with the church of Jesus Christ, the one true church of Jesus here on earth, to act and behave in those ways.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] So Josie, this part two is your story. How do you want to kind of like wrap up all these sentiments? Because emotions just got really hot, right?

JoCee Porter [02:34:50] Yeah, emotions did get hot. What are the options to wrap it up? Like what, what do people say? Do they bear their testimony at the end? Do we like do a stand up Kumara.

John Dehlin [02:35:03] So yeah. So where do things stand now? Oh, here's what I wanted to desk. Did you ever go to Riley, Josie, and say, you were right. I'm so sorry. Was there ever that conversation or not?

JoCee Porter [02:35:20] There should have been. I don't think there ever was a direct. You were right. Like, wow.

Rylee Porter [02:35:25] I think of Portland. I think of when we met in Portland.

JoCee Porter [02:35:28] We went to Portland and we got a bottle of wine and it was the first time us sisters have ever had a bottle of wine together. And we just sit the entire night and we just talked, talked it out and I rented an Airbnb and we were there for two days and we just talked the entire time and kind of went through this. And that's kind of when our. When we came back together as friends and our friendship and our current relationship started was after Portland and that bottle of wine and we just had a great evening.

Rylee Porter [02:36:01] Yeah. Well, now that I think about it, I mean, I was a. I tried to show up for Josie and rebuild the once I kind of saw what was happening. I mean, you. You saw what was happening. You could see it from a mile away, but there wasn't a coming to me. But her husband did provide a way that we could talk about these things because he asked me a lot of questions, quite frankly, he asked me a lot of questions about my experience. And so I'd go and hang out with them and Jaden would ask me things. And then we were able to have these conversations about Mormonism and what it meant to be Mormonism. So yeah, a lot of that started happening when Josie was with her current partner and then when she got married because again, I knew that my mom has a certain amount of social anxiety. I was her maid of honor and I tried to show up in every way that I could, forget Josie's wedding and make it this big, amazing day that ends up. You're right, you know, but like I did Your wedding video for you. I, like, tried to make everything perfect. I tried to be there. And so I was just trying to show Josie, I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I'm here for you. When you're ready to talk. When you're ready to talk about things. Let's talk about things. And so when she moved to Seattle, ironically around the same time I moved to Oregon, the middle meeting point for us was, was Portland. And I was like, hey, Joe, why don't we do a weekend together in Portland? We got that bottle of wine and Josie was able to be open and vulnerable and honest about how I hurt her directly and indirectly in our childhood.

John Dehlin [02:37:32] That hurt her.

Rylee Porter [02:37:32] That I hurt her. Right? That my actions hurt her. That they. Not that I. I mean, some things like, you know, I. I stole her clothes and that was, you know, typical sister stuff, but also that, that like, she spoke to. She felt like she didn't get the resources and the attention that she deserved from my parents and support in these really vulnerable years when she was going through her own shit. So silently and with a brave face because my parents attention was turned on me because I was not suffering silently. I was very, you know, outward about everything. And so that, that directly and indirectly hurt her, cost her a lot, and how she hated me and resented me. And we were able to kind of get that through. And I needed to hear it. I needed to hear directly from her, her lived experience. And then I feel like I just tried to tell you that I loved you and that I always loved you and that I was sorry that this pain that I was making decisions that I didn't think extended outside of myself, but of course they did, you know, and own up to the pain that I caused. And then I think from there we were able to, you know, with the social lubricant of a bottle of wine, we were able to have like, to me, that was a monumental moment for me is having like a heart to heart where I feel like my sister could be honest about her experiences with me. And from that place we were able to heal and build and rebuild.

JoCee Porter [02:39:00] Rebuild, I think a very great friendship and sister sistership and a lot of us. Yeah, yeah, beautiful.

Rylee Porter [02:39:09] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:39:11] No, I think that's a good place to end it just. And. And I guess where we're at with the family, it's hard. I know that this podcast will be hard.

John Dehlin [02:39:20] Are you all estranged from your parents or not at all?

JoCee Porter [02:39:23] No.

John Dehlin [02:39:24] You were just in London with your

Rylee Porter [02:39:25] dad and I Was just an interesting Jerusalem alum. With my dad. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:39:29] Yeah, with my dad. So, no, the relationship's healing. I know that this, like, podcast will be hard, you know, if they choose to hear, if they choose not to. It'll be a hard and it'll be a bump, but hopefully it's one that enables future healing or tears off the band aid or fixes the scars that were there previously. But I. We're not actively estranged from them. We talk pretty openly and often, and I hope in my true desire. And whether or not my dad believes this or not, I want to have a relationship, and I want to have a full and healthy and healed family. So that's hopefully what we can build up to in the future.

Rylee Porter [02:40:13] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:40:13] And I know that he wants a relationship. Yeah. And I think the fact that we haven't given up on it yet, I just. I wish I could. Maybe all of this would still happen, even if, like, Mormonism was out of the picture. We're all kind of highly intelligent, neurotic, quite frankly, individuals who I think would be, like, competitive and at each other's throats and, I don't know, maybe just like a. I. I always struggled because Mormon families are all supposed to be such happy families, and my family dynamics always. Right, that sounds maybe superficial. I see Margi shaking her head because, like, that's probably a superficial, outward thing that you see. But I envied that. I felt like I saw, like, these, like, perfect Utah Mormon families that were all happy and everyone got along and everything else and thought, why is that not my family? And why can't we fit into that? And it was, for me, impossible to not see Mormonism as a giant part of that equation just because it caused so much disruption and tension between everyone. But we haven't quit yet. God damn it.

Rylee Porter [02:41:12] That's beautiful.

JoCee Porter [02:41:13] I know my dad will never give up on me, and I don't think we might take breaks, but I'm never going to give up on him and the family either.

Rylee Porter [02:41:21] So.

JoCee Porter [02:41:21] Well said.

John Dehlin [02:41:24] And just. It's such a crazy world because you're both brilliant, talented, articulate, thoughtful, caring, ethical humans, by my estimation. Margi's nodding. And so, like, in a world that makes sense to me, that's enough for your parents. It's like, look, it should have. It should be in my world. Riley. Riley was like, the first blow, but now Josie, too. All right, I'm listening. I'm digging in. And okay, clearly it's over. We're out. This isn't. What? This isn't true. And we're doing harm, we're enabling harm, and we're done with the church. But that's not how the world works, is it? That's not how faith works, is it?

JoCee Porter [02:42:11] And I'm not holding out hope for that, you know, And I think what needs to happen is that we need to get better at allowing people to have their beliefs and not take it personally and I guess maybe create enough cognitive dissonance to. I can love my dad and I can hate. I can love the sinner and hate the sin.

Rylee Porter [02:42:29] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:42:30] I can love my dad and hate where he works.

Rylee Porter [02:42:33] I can love the believer even if I don't like the belief.

JoCee Porter [02:42:37] Right.

John Dehlin [02:42:39] I love the term. I love how you guys turn that around. All right. Well, Josie, thank you so much for you sharing your story. We went 2 hours and 44 minutes.

Rylee Porter [02:42:51] What was yours forever, it seems, but not nearly as interesting as just Josie's beautiful feminist awakening.

JoCee Porter [02:43:00] So well spoken.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] No, this was, this was courageous and powerful and insightful and so Josie, thank you so much for being willing to share your story.

Rylee Porter [02:43:10] So vulnerable.

Rylee Porter [02:43:10] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:11] And, and Riley, thank you for your input as well. It's been really, really healing.

JoCee Porter [02:43:16] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:43:16] Yeah, thank you. Powerful. And again, systems, not people love to. I don't even know obviously Jeffrey or Roxanne Porter. But love to you guys. It's about the system. You guys are awesome. And thanks for being good sports and supporting your daughters again. Yeah. Sharing their stories and their truth.

JoCee Porter [02:43:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:40] And it's. It's already like 7:30pm here. We've been going all day and we still haven't talked about really inside peak.

JoCee Porter [02:43:47] So let's talk about that next.

John Dehlin [02:43:49] We'll. We're gonna to end this part two and then thank you for joining us. Margi, thank you so much for being with us today.

Rylee Porter [02:43:56] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:57] It's past your. Your work time, so we may not get you for part three, but it's been lovely to have you and thank you so much.

Rylee Porter [02:44:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:04] I'm so glad for being a part.

Rylee Porter [02:44:06] Yeah. Thank you. I always appreciate your input.

John Dehlin [02:44:09] Yeah. All right. And don't go away. Come right back hopefully for part three. I don't know when we're going to record it, but come back for part three because we still want to hear Riley and Josie Porter talk about their perspective about Ensign Peak as the daughters of an inside Peak executive. That'll be part three if we end up recording it. So hope, hope to see you back super soon. Thanks for joining us on Mormon stories. Be good to each other and be kind to each other. And we'll see you for the next episode. Take care, everybody.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1776

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host John Dehlin. It is June 5, 2023. It's 8:06pm I've spent all day raptured in enjoyment interviewing Riley and Josie Porter. They are the daughters of an Ensign Peak executive. They're the daughters of Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter. We just did two episodes. The first episode I think we're thinking about titling becoming a black sheep of a Mormon family. That's kind of the Riley Porter story. Riley is the oldest child of Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter. And please go back and watch that story first because it talks a lot about growing up as children of kind of white collar elite, you know, Mormon Wall street bankers and investors growing up in New Jersey, but hobnobbing with the Mormon elites in New York, New Jersey area in Wall Street. But then what a culture shock that was for Riley to then have her family relocate to North Ogden of all places in Utah preceding her dad becoming hired by Ensign Peak. So that was part one. Please go back and watch that. Part two was the story of Josie Porter, who's the second child of Jeff Porter and Roxanne Porter. And it talks about how Josie strove to be the Nephi or kind of the favored child in this Porter family, this Mormon family dynamic and how she against her own best efforts still struggled with the Mormon shame parade, law of chastity, kind of guilt and shame, Bishop guilt and shame, but still striving to be Nephi, striving to be her parents favorite sort of trying to not become what Riley had become within the family and trying to curry basically favor and love of her parents and even specifically of her dad by becoming a top notch student, going to the U of U, even getting into the kind of the Wall street investment scene and becoming almost besties with her dad in all these pursuits, whom she and incidentally Riley both love and adore both. But how the wheels came off the wagon eventually for Josie as well, primarily over a feminist awakening that happened as she experienced patriarchal sexism within kind of tech and Wall street culture and then couldn't help but realize that Mormonism shared in the patriarchy and the sexism. And that was kind of Josie's undoing after Riley's undoing in the way that we ended Mormon undoing I should say. And we ended part two with Josie talking about her reckoning with her dad and then kind of a reconcilia beautiful reconciliation between Riley and Josie as both of them ended up losing their Mormon Faith and kind of reuniting as a result of that in ways they hadn't before. And parts one and two were beautiful and powerful. And I really think you should pause if you haven't watched or listened to both of them, go back and watch and listen to both of them. That will give you a lot of context, and by the way, I think constructive context, because there's a ton of love for their parents, there's a ton of respect for their parents, and there's a heavy emphasis on the idea of systems, not people, because we're not attacking Jeffrey Porter. There's just a ton of love and respect for him. We're talking about how Mormonism, high demand religions and these sorts of power dynamics with faith can end up bringing a lot of beautiful things and a lot of privilege and a lot of opportunity into people's lives. But also that there's a dark side to that where it can then end up dividing families and hurting relationships and enabling a lot of harm to people, especially when money and power get behind organizations that discriminate against vulnerable populations. And that's kind of the dynamic that you, you'll experience if you go back and watch or listen to parts one and two. Part three now is going to be about them speaking up as children of an Ensign Peak executive. And for those of you who don't know, Ensign Peak is this investment fund or organization or series of organizations that was covered in David Nielsen's 60 Minutes piece recently. David Nielsen is the heroic whistleblower former employee of Ensign Peak. So, you know, we've talked on Mormon stories, not just about that, but about the securities and Exchange Commission's recent ruling where they ruled with agreement from the Mormon Church, that the Mormon Church has intentionally hid and, you know, inappropriately filed or failed to file all the important and necessary forms to disclose the massive hoardings of wealth that they have. Ensign Peak has, I don't know, something like $150 billion worth of stocks and bonds and real est and investments and cash. And if you follow the widow's mite report, which we've also covered on Mormon stories, you'll know that the Mormon Church is now estimated to be worth upwards of a quarter of a trillion dollars. It's absolutely the most wealthy and maybe even powerful church in the United States at this point. And the church has intentionally hid its wealth not just from the world, not just from the irs, not just from the sec, but, but intentionally from its members. Because now the church is on record as admitting, thanks to the whistleblowers, that it was hiding its massive wealth from the members because it was afraid the members wouldn't pay tithing or would be concerned, or now we're finding out, would tell the church how to spend its wealth, which would be unacceptable. So, anyway, now that David Nielsen spoke out, Riley and Josie Porter reached out to me and said, we love our dad. We love our parents. We care about our family, and we feel like we wanna speak up. And they did this after consulting with their dad. So this is not like, attack dad, blow up the family. This is like. This is, in a very sensitive and thoughtful way, Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter and their daughters, who are no longer believing, having a thoughtful dialogue about how do we have this discourse in a way where everyone feels empowered and respected, but at the same time, with kind of consent in a way. And we've tried to express to Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter how grateful and in awe we are that they're in a way in dialogue with their daughters, as their daughters are having this conversation publicly. So I wanted to give that introduction and that context, even though it's a little bit lengthy, so that just people know what the setup is to the conversation we're about to have. Now, really quickly, Riley and Josie, is there anything you either want to add as a disclaimer or as context before we jump into some of the discussions today?

Rylee Porter [00:07:27] I was thinking. Well, because you said that we love our parents. So true. We loved Mormonism and the church, and that was an integral part of our existence for a long time. And that's why some of these conversations are as painful as they are, because there was a love there. Also want to say that we love the Nielsens, Dave and his wife, Carly Nielsen, obviously, that they're a part of the community of which we love and know intimately. So that's the only thing I was thinking is you were saying, you know, love mom and dad, and I was like. And love Carly and Dave, too, for sure.

JoCee Porter [00:08:04] No, that's. I don't. I love my parents. That's. That's the only thing that need to give any warning for their.

Rylee Porter [00:08:12] And we speak authentically and sincerely, and we're gonna do so as transparently as possible without causing a serious conflict of interest for anyone and not name any names that haven't already been publicly acknowledged.

JoCee Porter [00:08:30] Yeah, Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] Yeah. I think there's an elephant in the room that your dad still works for Ensign Peak. He works for the Mormon Church.

Rylee Porter [00:08:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] I am assuming he has a pension. Like, we don't want to harm his employment. We don't want to harm his retirement, and we don't want to harm your relationship with him. And so we want to find a way to give you a chance to raise your voice, because you came to me and you guys, y' all wanted to raise your voice. But at the same time, we don't want to harm your dad. And we know your dad's in a tough spot, and he's a sincere believer. It's not like, you know, as far as we know, he's a real believer, and we covered that in the past two episodes, so.

Rylee Porter [00:09:08] And a frustration that, like, we're not able to speak as openly even as we care to. And I think that my father would echo that 100%. A frustration. Again, not. People know systems. Right. That there's a system in place here to silence dissenters. And who does that serve? Does that serve the individuals who are working within the organization because they have the best intentions and they believe in the cause that they're working for, or does it serve a single purpose to not be able to openly critique institutions, let alone institutions that have a lot of power?

JoCee Porter [00:09:53] I also wanna think it's really cool that we feel like we can speak out. And I know I talked about this in the first episode, but in case people don't listen to that, I want it to be a testament to how great that my parents are, is that I feel comfortable speaking out and critiquing the church that they believe in and the employer of my dad and knowing that he'll love me afterwards. And that's a great thing for my parents. And I hope everyone sees how great they are, because we can speak out and feel safe to do so.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] Yeah. And one thing people won't get from if they haven't watched parts one and two, is that your parents raised you to be critical thinkers and to speak truth to power. So in some ways, you are your parents, children, doing what you're doing today.

JoCee Porter [00:10:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] You're sort of doing what your parents raised you to do in a way.

Rylee Porter [00:10:45] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:10:45] Yeah, absolutely. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] And there's also a Mormon teaching which is do what is right. Let the consequence follow. Dare to do right. Dare to be true. There is a work that no other can do. So in some ways, this is a very Mormon story.

Rylee Porter [00:10:59] Well said.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] All right. All right. So I want to. So we've talked. We've done both of your stories in depth, but I want to go back now and ask it from kind of like a particular point of view. So when you moved to Utah, it was about a year you said before your dad was actually hired into Ensign Peak. Do you remember, like there's sort of like what number of employee we've already talked about how. Who's the founder of Ensign Peak?

Early Concerns About Ensign Peak Practices

Rylee Porter [00:11:26] Roger Clark.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Roger Clark. So Roger Clark, as far as I know, was the first one of the first, if not the first Ensign Peak employers. Do you remember what year he, by Gordon B. Hinckley was called to start Ensign Peak? Did you say it was in the 90s?

Rylee Porter [00:11:40] Oh, that's a good question.

JoCee Porter [00:11:41] 1997.

Rylee Porter [00:11:43] Well, that was when Ensign Peak was started. I don't know personally when Roger, I

John Dehlin [00:11:48] don't know knew Roger. Back in your New Jersey days, your family were friends with Roger Clark, the guy who started Ensign Peak.

JoCee Porter [00:11:56] Right. And his name's Big. Like it's said, you know, his name is Big.

Rylee Porter [00:12:00] Very public.

JoCee Porter [00:12:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] And you know him, huh?

Rylee Porter [00:12:04] Yeah. And his family.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Okay. Okay. So your dad. Would you would. Is it fair to say he's one of the early employees of Ensign Peak? Numbers wise?

JoCee Porter [00:12:14] I believe so.

Rylee Porter [00:12:15] Oh, I think so, yeah. I mean. So if it was found. Well, I. But who knows, quite frankly, because I mean, if it started in 1997, he started in 2007, so.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] 10 years.

Rylee Porter [00:12:28] 10 years.

JoCee Porter [00:12:29] So it was certainly small. I don't think he was like one of the first. I think he was the beginning of the growth, I think would probably be a good way to characterize that. What that growth is, I can't fully explain.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] The crazy growth.

JoCee Porter [00:12:40] The crazy growth, right. And I know that like once he came on, it was a big deal to. To bring a few others from. From New Jersey to come on manage this fund.

Rylee Porter [00:12:50] Right. It's to me, to my understanding, it's the beginning of the exponential growth that he absol. Oversaw the. Even Dave speaks to that. Right. Like the beginning of the exponential growth. What did Albert Einstein say? There's no.

JoCee Porter [00:13:05] It's not Albert Einstein, but yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:13:07] No, there's no power more powerful than compounding.

JoCee Porter [00:13:10] Compounding pound interest. The most powerful force in the world is compounding interest. And they saw that, I'm sure, right, that it was growing at some rate that was. It was going to get big. It was going to get big.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Yeah. And there's some list, I think I saw of like how many people you knew in, in New Jersey and you know, in New York and Wall street who end up as employees of Ensign Peak. It's. It's not a super small number, right. It's like five or ten people that you. It's almost like a. I don't Want to say boys Club, but like a

Rylee Porter [00:13:44] bunch, a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] A bunch of Wall Street Mormons who are investors, knew each other in New Jersey and New York, and. And then there was some migration of a bunch of them to Ensign Peak, and they all kind of knew each other. Is that fair to say?

Rylee Porter [00:13:59] 100%. I mean, 5 to 6 that we know personally, who we knew growing up in that one ward in New Jersey. So, yeah, five to six leaders that now are at Ensign Peak that were from one Short Hills ward, New Jersey.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Yeah. Yeah. And as an example, Dave Nielsen's wife, Carly, was your young women's leader in New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [00:14:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, all right, so my first question sort of is, when did you. When did you first sort of like, kind of, when did the first negative association occur in your mind as it related to Ensign Peak? Was it when the first whistleblower stuff happened? Now there's a whistleblower before David Nielsen, because somebody, and I know this, but they're not named somebody, discovered these fake shell companies and the Internet domains and released that to Mormon leaks before David Nielsen ever came out. So that was the first blow. It's like, wait, what are all these shell companies and what are they doing? So that was the first, in my mind, the first sort of, like, emergence of Ensign Peak into the public, public consciousness as potentially doing something unethical. When was your first occurrence of, like, whoa, there's something weird about my dad's company or my dad's work? Was it before that? Was it, Was that it? Or was it after that? Or do you even remember when you first started, like, going, huh, dad? What, dad, what's going on here?

Rylee Porter [00:15:46] You know, do you want me to answer first or.

JoCee Porter [00:15:50] You can answer first.

Rylee Porter [00:15:52] Okay. Like, for me, it was before the. The leaks themselves.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:15:57] And I do remember that.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Can you talk us through. So, so, Riley, you were the first person to sort of realize there might be some problems with where your dad worked and what he was doing. Can you tell us about that?

JoCee Porter [00:16:09] Yeah, and I want to quantify what problems means too, so please quantify that as well.

Rylee Porter [00:16:14] So what I found problematic on, like, a really superficial understanding, again, was like, before the wiki links, like, we would talk about my dad. And again, it's not like he was very explicit about what he did day to day. He often talked about the relationships he built. Like, that's like, obviously the most important, important part to him. He's. And that came from his trading days, quite frankly, you know, is like building relationships with entities and finding potential in Organizations and investing. So he's very much of like analytical, but also a very personable person. That's why people love him. That's why Dave speaks so highly of my dad is because he's such a personable person. So he doesn't really get into like the mechanics or minutiae of the day to day of what his job is. He would just talk about these people he was able to be in contact with who were like incredible people that, you know, it was like a little bit of star value. Right. It's like, you know, guess who I talked to today? Or whatever. And we're like, whoa, no way. Like, that's incredible.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Like actors or famous actor for you.

Rylee Porter [00:17:22] Not.

JoCee Porter [00:17:22] He met with. Who's Taylor Swift's. Like the guy that's hated because of Taylor Swift's Red Scarf.

Rylee Porter [00:17:28] Oh, no, wait. Jake Gyllenhaal.

JoCee Porter [00:17:30] Yeah, he met with Jake Gyllenhaal. I remember that one. That was interesting. Wow. I was like, wow, I love Taylor Swift. Hate him. Did you tell him how much I love Taylor Swift for me? Because you should have that. Carly Clauss's husband, also the brother of the son in law of Trump. What's his name?

Rylee Porter [00:17:47] Oh, Jared.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] Jacob. Jared.

JoCee Porter [00:17:50] Jared Kushner.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Jerk.

Rylee Porter [00:17:52] Yes, There we go.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] Now, was this before his time with Ensign Peak?

JoCee Porter [00:17:56] No, this is at Ensign Peak.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Why is your dad hobnobbing with the rich and famous while working for Ensign Peak? What's the. How does that work?

Rylee Porter [00:18:03] Because doors open when you have a lot of money. Like. Right. Influence is influence. And power. And power. Right. That's how I would explain that.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] Him seeing a computer like Buy more Tesla, buy less Coca Cola.

JoCee Porter [00:18:17] You know, like, that's not what investments are.

Rylee Porter [00:18:19] Right. Yeah. He was much more of like a venture capitalist, quite frankly. So it was like finding these like young and emerging corporations that he thought deserved capital. Right. I mean, because that's what venture capital is. So like the beginning of his experience, at least from my understanding with Ensign Peak, was venture capital. So it was very much like being around people who were impressive and privileged. And that also came with like, you know, wealthy and political power and political influences. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] So it's like venture capital is like what companies can we invest in.

Rylee Porter [00:18:57] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:18:58] That will give us a return. Not buying, not buying and trading stocks on Wall Street.

JoCee Porter [00:19:01] So buying, trading stocks on Wall Street. That's public equity. Right. And he's been in venture capital, which is under the scope of private equity, and that's where he works now. And private equity is all about finding the companies and how do you find the companies? You know someone you know an in. Right. You have a friend that knows these people or you're a good investor and they want you on the board of directors so they seek you out. There's a lot of ways to find these, but it's not open to the public. You have to be someone in the know or someone like interesting someone knows you or you know them to kind of be into these deals. And this is how it works within finance, not just Ensign Peak. This is finance in general.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] So it's like Bain Capital. So what Mitt Romney was doing, it's. Yeah, okay, okay.

Rylee Porter [00:19:40] Uh huh.

John Dehlin [00:19:40] Okay, that's helpful. I think there's a lot of people that have no idea what the difference is between VC and equities, you know.

Rylee Porter [00:19:47] Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] So yeah, so it's all about relationships, right?

Rylee Porter [00:19:51] All about relationships, yeah. And he's traveling all of the time and you know, I mean, like we said in Josie's thing, Josie was just in Jerusalem and was able to speak to the President of Israel because, you know, the.

JoCee Porter [00:20:05] I'll share the story for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:20:07] You know, just like the elite of the elite. And a lot of those doors obviously are opened because people who are in the investment world and understand, especially if they want their company to be invested in, understand that this is a major player in the room and this is an important player in the room.

JoCee Porter [00:20:25] But was this before or after you decided it was bad? Because that was the original question.

Rylee Porter [00:20:29] Yes, for me, what was originally the question? Thank you, Josie. It's so centering is in like a really superficial sense. I knew that the church was a tax exempt organization and in my kind of superficial understanding is it was like, dad, you talk about making these for profit decisions where you're going to pick winners and losers and hopefully gain a return on those investments. But wait, where does the money come from and how. And obviously that comes from tithing. And how does that legally fit underneath a tax exempt organization? Like in my mind the beginning of kind of like where it started becoming confusing is I just said like for profit. I was like, how does this non profit tax exempt church get to act as a for profit investment fund? And so that was kind of like the beginning of my education that like this was a separate entity, although it was you know, definitely underneath the leadership of the church, but it was a entity that was able to behave in this way because it was not necessarily the church, but kind of the church.

JoCee Porter [00:21:54] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:21:55] That's where it got like kind of confusing really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] So you started asking these questions to your dad. Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:22:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Did he, like. I mean, I don't know if you want to talk about the dynamics, but for sure. Okay, so how did it go from there?

Rylee Porter [00:22:07] Well, so his answer would always be like, riley, it's legal. Everything that we're doing is legal. Like, I feel like he, like, wanted to, because to me, it didn't legally make any sort of sense. And then he would. Would say, like, what we're doing is legal. You can contest that maybe the laws are antiquated or unethical. Exactly. And that when these laws that were established that give churches a certain amount of exclusion and a special status that, you know, the people who created those laws never anticipated a centralized American church that would gather that much. They were thinking of local parishes. Right. Like churches. Exactly, exactly. Like, churches are able to, like, have these exemptions because it's understood that they're going to act as these charitable organizations. At least that was my understanding. And so when my dad's not actively doing charity, like, like this, it's. This doesn't sound like a charitable organization anymore. How does that tax exempt status still neatly fit into how this all plays out? Like, that was confusing for me for a long time, and I feel like the answer that I got was that it's legal. It's legal.

JoCee Porter [00:23:27] And I think that's, like, if you ask me, like, do I think what enzyme peak is doing is illegal? I would say no. I think everything that they're doing is legal. And I think the interesting conversation is, is it moral? Right. Is me as a believing member at the time, does this make sense? And that's an interesting conversation to have. So I'm not going to try and, like, understand tax law, because that's way too complex for me. Is it legal? Probably. Is it moral? I don't know.

Rylee Porter [00:23:51] That's the more interesting question.

JoCee Porter [00:23:52] It's a good point. And so I, when, when I started questioning, it was like, way later.

Rylee Porter [00:23:58] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:23:58] When, when Dave came out the first time, nothing surprised me. I knew all of it already. Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] Like, so, like, when Lars leaked David's whistleblowing to the irs, Is that what

Rylee Porter [00:24:07] you mean by David coming out the Washington Post?

JoCee Porter [00:24:09] The Washington Post. Nothing was all that surprising. It all kind of made sense to me. Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] So you. You hear that? Okay. What was it like for you to learn that David Nielsen, someone who's. Who you had known back in New Jersey, that was a dear friend of the family, worked closely with your dad? What was it like for you to realize he had Become a whistleblower against your dad's company.

Reaction to the Washington Post Whistleblower Story

Rylee Porter [00:24:31] I was floored. I think I was more surprised than Josie was.

JoCee Porter [00:24:34] Right. And I was in finance at this time. Right. So this is what I was trying to figure out and trying to do. And like I actually worked for Intermountain Healthcare.

Rylee Porter [00:24:41] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:24:41] And I worked for their pension fund. So I saw how you take a non profit organization and you create a pension, you create this fund and you use that fund to pay people's retirements. What a great cause to invest money for is to help people retire. I think that was great. And I see the need for these entities to exist. And, and so nothing was that surprising. Like the fact like I knew about the mall. Like, like there's no way that that wall is made without like money from Ensign Peak. Like, I feel like that was self evident. I like knew that there are other investments that were probably like in the church's in best interests, you know. But that also didn't like rub me the wrong way at all. It, it made sense because you just invest in different things and sometimes they're good investments, sometimes they're bad investments. And the number also didn't surprise me either. Right. Like, in fact, I was actually shocked at how low it was. You know, like I thought it mean

John Dehlin [00:25:30] like 100 billion or the 120 billion or whatever that number.

JoCee Porter [00:25:33] Right. I mean at that point money is just like an abstract concept that's such an uncomprehendable amount of money. But I was working at Intermountain Health Care and that was like, you know, I can't remember how big their pension fund is. Like maybe 20 billion. Right. So like I was working in the constructs of billions already.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Tens of billions.

JoCee Porter [00:25:53] Tens of billions. Right. And then we got to hundreds of billions.

Rylee Porter [00:25:56] What's a couple more billion? Yeah,

JoCee Porter [00:26:00] no, it like it wasn't like. And now that I think about it, I'm like, oh, that's a lot of money. But like at the time I was like already kind of accustomed to the billion numbers, so it didn't shock me. You know, I was just like, okay, like they have it and they're investing and, and, and I was under the incorrect assumption that that money like, you know, was used for, for, you know, different things and was taken out other than for investment purposes to, to help people. And, and I. So I guess that's kind of what confused me.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] You figured all that money was being used for charitable purposes?

JoCee Porter [00:26:31] Ultimately, yeah. And I also kind of believed in the mission that like where it's like, yeah, this, like, small church, it needs to have this rainy day fund. I didn't realize how big of a hundred billion dollar rainy day fund was at the time. Like, that's a massive rainy day fund. But, like, of the thing where it's like, yeah, having money set aside isn't a bad thing. I also have a savings account. That's not a bad thing. Why are we getting mad at these organizations for. For. For doing things that I think is good and investments aren't bad. They're not inherently bad at all, you know, And I, I think having money to help, to have the power to help people with is great.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] So if you weren't surprised by the Washington Post article, were you frustrated at Dave Nielsen for whistleblowing against your dad's company?

JoCee Porter [00:27:11] Not really. Honestly, I was, like, kind of confused because they were like, calling Dave a liar and I was like, what is he lying about?

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Who was calling Dave a liar?

JoCee Porter [00:27:18] Just like the Internet Reddit, you know, like, they were just like, oh, like, Dave is like the Apologetics. You know, there was a lot of

Rylee Porter [00:27:25] people in the community, both inside and outside of finance, that were discrediting Dave.

JoCee Porter [00:27:31] And that confused me because I was like, I don't think he's lying, you know, And I don't think this is this shocking and what. You know.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] So probably other inside Peak employees were mad at David for whistleblowing and they would have felt the need to discredit him.

JoCee Porter [00:27:49] Oh, absolutely. And I'm not gonna make that claim, but definitely.

Rylee Porter [00:27:52] Well, there was bad blood.

JoCee Porter [00:27:53] Sure, sure. But I don't know about it, so I'm not gonna make that claim. But certainly on Reddit, right? Like under, like, whatever, you know, in apologetics that you can, like, apologetics within the communities, they were doing it. Right. But I don't know anyone directly from Ensign Peak that was trying to do that.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] Okay, okay. So your reaction overall to David's whistleblowing was. Confusion.

JoCee Porter [00:28:12] Confusion, but also being like, well, didn't you guys, like, know this? Like, it's not that surprising, but. Cause I was in finance. Right. I saw the power that Peak already had. Right. It had gotten me internships at this point. Right. So I wasn't. I was baked in privilege at that point, I guess. So I was like, well, yeah, you know, like, cool.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] It's the water. You were swimming. Cool.

JoCee Porter [00:28:31] Like, they're good investors. Maybe I'm his daughter, you should hire me. Like, that's kind of how I perceived it, I suppose, you know?

Rylee Porter [00:28:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:28:40] And my experience was totally different because when the, like, Leaks came out. The, the mall was a hang up for me.

John Dehlin [00:28:47] Like you were out of the church by this point.

Rylee Porter [00:28:49] I was out of the church. And so to me that was like emblematic of all of the things that like were my complaint with the church in the first place is like explain to me how that this is the church of Jesus Christ in his name. You built a prestigious mall, a great and spacious building. Yeah, to me exactly. It was the great and spacious building like that. So the.

JoCee Porter [00:29:16] Well explain to me why that concept is bad. Because like an investment vehicle. Why is that investment vehicle the one that you picked up? Because we know that the church invests in other ones that I would question More like SpaceX. Right. Why is it the mall that held you up?

Rylee Porter [00:29:30] I mean to me it was like a superficial manifestation. Like I couldn't think of like quite frankly like a materialistic. And it was kind of already like the complaints that I was having like against Mormonism is like, it seems materialistic. It supports this like superiority gospel that you have to like show prosperity. Exactly. But that sense of like we have to protect the temple grounds that are already like outrageous with like an elevated mall experience, like a shopping retail experience. Did Jesus not go into the temples and you know, say you defiled my father's house and overturned tables and you're going to protect your temple by building a multi million, multi billion, I don't even know like mall surrounding the temple grounds. What like that, that on where. Josie maybe understood this, even though that doesn't make sense from an investment point of view because they've lost money on the mall.

JoCee Porter [00:30:34] I think they're making money on the mall. Okay. My speculation that they are making money, I think so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Well, I mean you read the Book of Mormon and it condemns materialism, it condemns wealth, it condemns fine apparel and just Jesus's message. You've got scriptures in your notes about condemning the poor, condemning wealth. So it is a logical conclusion. Why is a church in the name of Jesus spending billions of dollars on a consumer shopping mall with the Tiffany's

JoCee Porter [00:31:06] with Tiffany and Coach and now things that the average person can't afford. Their average tithing payer probably is not shopping at City Creek on a regular basis.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] They're fair concerns.

JoCee Porter [00:31:17] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:31:18] And already at this point, like, like the temples had become problematic to me because I'm like, wow, you come into these developing nations that need water, that need clean water and you're building these. How do you not feel mortified and ashamed for building up these, you know, granite Marble, beautiful buildings. I mean, like, allow them to be. I want the buildings to, like, be beautiful. But how does that not seem so out of place in a destitute, impoverished area? And by the way, you don't want destitution or poverty to be associated with the Salt Lake City temple. So to keep this rounding grounds clean and the homeless population and unhoused population outside of the realms, you're going to build a protective moat and barrier of a mall. Like, it was problematic and it bothered me. And where did we lose, you know, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] So did you at the time, during the first whistleblowing eras, did you try to talk to your dad about that?

Rylee Porter [00:32:25] Yeah, I was like, dad, what the hell? A mall like that one really bothered me, quite frankly. And I mean, I don't think that, like, my dad feels all that great about them all, quite frankly. You know, I think that there's things that are, like, frustrating for him because he's a humanist. I, you know, and I think he would rather see that money invested in something that's going to serve communities and individuals and people better again. Remember, he believes in people. He seeks out core, like good ideas and innovators so that he can invest and build and grow these people. That's what venture capital does. So I, I think that he was like, embarrassed to find himself defending a mall.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] Okay. All right. So those were your reactions to the first round of whistleblowing?

Rylee Porter [00:33:17] Yeah, and then when I read the Washington Post like that, the, the number at that time was shocking to me.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Which number?

Rylee Porter [00:33:25] The hundred when it was just. And so then that's also. And every time, bless my dad's heart, when Mormonism comes up in the news cycle, he knows, expect a call. Yeah. You know, but at least, you know, we're talking. But when Washington Post, when that first article came up, I like, called him and I was like, 100 billion, dad. 100 billion with a billion be a hundred billion, you know, and what he said to me at that time is like, is it the number that makes it bad? And I was like, well, it's, it doesn't look great. And he was like, well, it's, it's, you're actually, your estimation's low. It's, it's actually, it's actually more than the number that's causing you such issue right now.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] And it's like, it's worse.

Rylee Porter [00:34:13] I was a low ball estimate is what you're telling me.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] What?

Rylee Porter [00:34:19] Yeah, my mind was bent.

JoCee Porter [00:34:21] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:34:25] And I knew Dave Personally and loved Dave and knew that my father was a significant reason why David came to work at Ensign Peak, and that. Yeah. And that they had a significant relationship, just like all of those Short Hill, you know, New Jersey relationships brought each other into this organization. Because I think that they were really excited about the work, quite frankly. Like, Dave's sincerity in that 60 Minutes episode is so felt because I think all of them are there not because they wanted to build malls, not because anyone wanted to get inordinately wealthy, not because it financially benefits them, quite frankly, all that much, but because they believe in this organization so much so that they're willing to be, you know, complicit in what I see is complicit. But they see it as a mechanism, as part of a bigger picture that I'm sure they think that I'm blind to.

Responding to David Nielsen's Whistleblowing

John Dehlin [00:35:30] So did either of you either feel anger at David Nielsen for whistleblowing or, like, inspired by David Nielsen's whistleblowing? Did either of you feel either of those things?

Rylee Porter [00:35:45] I just was like, man, I'd love to talk to him again, you know, Like, I wondered primarily the cost to his family, quite frankly, because I knew that they were living in Utah. You know, I knew that the kids were still young. And when I say young, like, you know, going through school and everything, and to be so publicly named, because I know that there's people who were going to criticize him and know people who undermined his ethos and undermined his credibility and that he would be personally attacked. I. Man, I wanted to figure out a way to, like, write a letter, and I think that I sent a card. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I never sent it. Honestly, memory kind of doesn't serve. But I felt for them because I knew the family and loved the family and knew that there would be a significant social cost because of where they were living, a significant, significant career cost for Dave, a cost for, you know, his wife and the rest of his family, who, quite frankly, are innocent, but will have to, you know, pay for kind of that entire experience. So I worried about them. And I think I wrote a card to Carly because I felt so close to Carly at the time that just. I didn't want to go into things explicitly, but was just like, I want you to know that you meant so much to me growing up, and in my entire experience in life or whatever, and that I love you guys. I kind of just remember trying to communicate support, and whether I sent that card or not, I think that I did. But I want to confirm with them because I just felt heavy hearted for them, specifically as a family, that this

John Dehlin [00:37:26] can't be fun for you guys.

Rylee Porter [00:37:27] No way.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] And Josie, I'm intrigued by the fact that you. It seems like you were ambivalent. You were. You weren't mad at David, but you weren't mad at the church. You were kind of riding them middle ground of almost confusion or ambivalence, right?

JoCee Porter [00:37:44] Yeah, a lot of confusion. Mostly because, you know, Dave was being called a liar and he, in my mind's not a liar. So that was very confusing to me. But no, I've only ever heard positive things towards Dave, you know, like, very positive things towards Dave. And my dad has spoken so highly of him. And when I met him at the Ensign Peak offices, because I was in their offices, offices quite often, like, he was always so kind to me and everyone seemed like they loved him. So, like, it was just weird, I guess, if anything. And, you know, but it wasn't anything more impactful than, like, weird.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] And you don't have to answer this, so only answer it if you want to. Did you get a sense that it strained your dad's relationship with David?

JoCee Porter [00:38:28] Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think that's something that's, like, important for, like, my. I think my dad, you know, has really tried to, like, maintain, you know, at least respect for Dave in my presence.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] So there was no, like, trashing of David by your dad?

JoCee Porter [00:38:45] Not really. I feel like he's always been trying to be very respectful of it. I did remember that, like, it wasn't shocking to me, but I remember it being shocking to Riley. And I remember my dad actually calling me after he spoke to Riley and was like, I actually, like. And I think this is kind of a testament to Riley's ability to have, like, a great conversation. He was like, I had a good conversation with Riley about it. And, like, I think it was probably, like a rough conversation, but at the end it was a good conversation to have about it, or at least, like, you know, communicated like, decently. And it could have gone way worse, you know, and it didn't go as bad as that, but I was working at the time for an immigration company, and immigration is. Is pretty hot topic button. And they started asking me questions about it because they knew where my dad was. They're like, have you read this? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, what do you think? And I'm like, what do you mean? You know, like, what are you talking. What do you. What do I think about it interesting, you know, like, what do you think? You know, they're like, well, aren't you mad about it? I'm like, no, are you? You know, like. And they're like, well, yeah. And I was like, oh. So like I saw that other people were mad, you know.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] And did you say immigration?

JoCee Porter [00:39:49] Yes. I worked at. Okay, Shout out to Simple Citizen. They're a great company and I was working for immigration. We were doing immigration tech to try and help immigrants, which I love that mission so much. So shout out to my previous employer. But they're very left leaning, right. In like a very anti Mormon culture, because that's the thing. But yeah, so they would ask me questions.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] So some non Mormon progressive co workers were kind of grilling you a little bit.

JoCee Porter [00:40:14] Yeah, they were asking me questions.

Rylee Porter [00:40:16] And you ought to say that story quickly because immigration had its own problems with their experiences with the Mormon Church. Because of the problems that the.

JoCee Porter [00:40:28] Right. Oh, like the image that the problems

Rylee Porter [00:40:31] that the missionary, they're like, they, their interaction with Mormonism was missionaries, which was problematic for immigrations. And so they already had kind of like a bad association. I wouldn't say that it was anti Mormon.

JoCee Porter [00:40:43] This is like no simple citizens.

Rylee Porter [00:40:45] Great.

JoCee Porter [00:40:45] And like they have people that are still active, Mormons that were there and some that aren't. But you support immigration. Right? That's the point of working there in a lot.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] The Mormon Church is very pro immigration.

Rylee Porter [00:40:57] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] But those who support kind of Republican Trump politics, they're against, tend to be against it, which is a tension between sort of mainstream conservative Mormons and official Mormon church policy.

Rylee Porter [00:41:11] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:41:11] And like another thing I remember is like when the church opened, opened up all these immigration centers, it was like a big deal. Like we got a bunch of like calls and we knew about it, you know, because, because people were angry about it and we were like, why are you angry? This is a great thing.

Rylee Porter [00:41:24] We were angry about it. Yes.

JoCee Porter [00:41:25] Believing Mormons and people like when I say that I like work for immigration, it kind of is like they're like, oh, you know, like, kind of like that's a bad thing. And it's a great, beautiful thing and something that I think I kind of learned from my New Jersey experience being surrounded by these great, incredible people who were illegal immigrants. Right. But they deserved to be here. This was their home. And I thought that they, they deserved a shot at the American dream, you know, and so I was very proud to work there. But I mean, immigration has a weird spot with missionaries and we can maybe talk about that down the future. That's not to do with Enzyme Peak. But I do have an interesting story about like a time when I was like, wait a second, immigration missions don't quite work perfectly well.

Rylee Porter [00:42:07] Yeah, I mean, I guess the story just being that like missionaries stop presenting as missionaries so that they can extend their visas in certain countries. Happens all the time. Right. So if that's your experience with Mormonism is they're already not transparent, that they're duplicitous, that they're trying to game the system and claim one thing to everyone else and then another thing to like legal entities and legal processes and national organizations. Then there's already this sense that there's, that there's duplicity there. Right. And that's not like a good experience to have as your first experience with Mormonism.

JoCee Porter [00:42:43] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:42:43] Yeah. And again, like, it, it did never sat well with me. Again, we talk about this like duality of like Utah Mormons versus what felt like not. Right. It just felt Utah Mormons versus non Mormons or non Utah Mormons that I, I didn't understand this like kind of right leaning ethnocentric. We don't want people of different nations and creeds and, you know, immigrants to come to my. Because that was not my lived experience with Mormonism outside of Utah. I only first interacted and was exposed to that, moving to Utah and that was weird.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Yeah. Okay.

JoCee Porter [00:43:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:26] Okay. So how did your story regarding your dad at Inside peak progress? What were the next important milestones in the timeline? If there's anything else worth mentioning, like,

Rylee Porter [00:43:39] do you want to go.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] There was a big. So Lars, Lars sort of outed David publicly.

Rylee Porter [00:43:44] Please.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] And then. But then David didn't want to speak publicly and then there. And so Lars kind of went on this PR tour and all these articles happened.

Rylee Porter [00:43:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] But then it all kind of went silent for a long time. It did years until, until the SEC ruling came out and then David was willing to finally speak publicly. And as I understand it, there were years where the media wanted to interview David, but he wasn't ready for whatever legal reasons, he wasn't ready to speak. So that's kind of a little bit more of the timeline. Is there anything in either of your stories as it relates to Ensign Peak that's worth covering before we get into, you know, the history of Ensign Peak and your analysis of it?

JoCee Porter [00:44:28] Right. I mean, and maybe like that would be in the history, but like, I certainly, like, while I understood it at first and was just like, yeah, okay, no big deal. I, when I started questioning the church and being able to finally, like, question the authoritative figure of the church. That's when I realized, like, oh, this is a corrupt thing. We are taking tithing money from. From people, a global world, right? We're taking tithing money from people all over the world. And yeah, the majority of tithing payers are from the Mormor. Right. The Mormon corridor. But we're taking their money and we're bringing it into a centralized church where a lot of those investments are in Utah. Are helping Utah in a lot of ways, are helping me in a lot of ways, are helping all of us in a lot of ways. And it's not giving back to the actual communities that it's taking from. And that's not fair. And not only are they, like, taking a lot of money, but, like, they're not practicing what they preach. Right. And I think that's one of my. My critiques that I came up with. It was like, I was like, we practice what we preach, right? It's like, are you donating 10%? You know, like, of. Of your fund? You know, like, that's what the tithe was to me, that you donate 10% and you're not. So are you practicing what you preach? Yeah, you save more than you spend. That's abundantly clear. You know, but, like, you're not donating that money or doing anything good with it. You're hoarding it in. In a ditch. Right. And isn't that story, the one that we're not supposed to do? We don't take our talents and put them in a ditch. We go forth and do good in the world with them. So at one point, I did have a transition to start questioning it.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] So once you had your faith crisis, you felt free to analyze and even critique inside the correct. Okay, so you did come around in that regard.

JoCee Porter [00:46:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would love to play the devil's advocate in this conversation a little bit more.

Analyzing Ensign Peak's Financial Structure and Ethics

John Dehlin [00:46:10] So, okay, so that's kind of the history. Now, what they have prepared, what Riley and Josie have prepared are kind of an analysis, their analysis of kind of the history and the ethics of Ensign Peak. But what both of them felt very important to do was to sort of try and be fair to both sides. So they have put together first their arguments for why Ensign Peak, the positive aspects of Ensign Peak, or the ways in which Ensign Peak might be considered ethical. Right, right. And you guys wanted to. You all wanted to start with that before we. We go to the criticisms.

Rylee Porter [00:46:55] Well, and is that right? Yeah, well, that's absolutely Right. That's absolutely right. Just an important part of my timeline because it did follow the leaks and then the story. The next big conversation that I had to have directly with my father was the SEC filing, because that was, like, public knowledge. And again, you know, after the Washington Post story, at least in my experience, there was like, a little discrediting of David, both, like, as, like an individual, but also what he says isn't part of, like, the whole picture, isn't, you know, doesn't give, like, a full experience of what Enzyme Peak does. But I couldn't. My dad didn't feel like he could talk as openly to me about everything that they were involved with. Just that remember the assurance that it's legal. So to me, this was an important distinction because when the SEC charges came out and I was able to read, like, verbatim, you know, that Enzyme Peak, and at this point, I know what it is, I know how much money it was or whatever. Enzyd Peak developed its approach to filing, you know, these forms in the name of shell companies, of 13 different shell companies with the knowledge and approval of the church, which sought to avoid disclosure of the amount and nature of their assets. Through their institutionalized use of this approach for almost 20 years, Ensign Peak was basically able to. Its significant role in the securities market as an institutional investment manager was not disclosed to the Commission, the market, and the investing public as required by the section 13F of the exchange act and Rule. And to me, like, that was like, a clear distinction where I was like, dad, within the opening part of this argument. Is the Exchange act and Rule not a law? Is it not a law?

John Dehlin [00:49:08] Does he get telling you everything they're doing is legal?

Rylee Porter [00:49:10] It's legal, Riley. It's legal. It's legal. So that's why, like, the SEC distinction for me was a way to say, was this not a law? And I think. And when you read the charge itself, you can tell that there's. I mean, they were in discussions for years before this came out, right? And again, when you have a lot of money to pay those litigation fees and get things to swing your way and settle outside of court, because they definitely were not going to go into court and, you know, lose any more credit in the public opinion and in the court of public opinion and things that you can't anticipate are going to come out during a court process. So, of course they were never going to go to court. Of course they were going to settle. And I feel like they took extreme measures to avoid saying the terms we broke the law. And so for me, when it says that they directly, you know, were basically avoiding disclosure to a law that was legally required in the financial sector was a regulation and a law and a requirement, you're telling me that they broke the law? And that's when he was like, that's an accurate summation, Riley. And I was like, so laws were broken.

JoCee Porter [00:50:34] But like, that just kind of shows how bad the system is to me, right? Where it's like they were able to not file guilty, even though it seems very obvious that they were right. It seems so obvious that they were guilty. I think we could all like kind of come to that conclusion. But they didn't have to claim guilt. Right. They could settle out of court with a no contest because they had the

Rylee Porter [00:50:53] power and money to do so.

JoCee Porter [00:50:56] So that's a corrupt system. That's not a corrupt organization. Right. I think the system is at blame for that. Should they have been allowed to settle and should they have been allowed for. Settle for 5 million?

Rylee Porter [00:51:05] Yeah, absolutely. But like that, that was. That's an important part of my story, that's an important part of my piece is because I was continuously told that this was legal, that this was above board. And this to me was the church admitting to laws were broken. I guess, you know, mistakes were made, but not by me, I guess. And it even bothers me that it says inside Peak developed this approach to do this with the knowledge and approval of the church. That language, in my estimation and from my experiences and conversations with people, is intentionally misleading. How I think it should be written because of the experiences and conversations that I had would be that church leadership directed Ensign Peak to act and behave in this way despite Ensign Peak employees repeated. What's the word? I want to say objections. I mean, just that there were people in this organization, David didn't exist in a vacuum. There were multiple people in this organization. It was not a silo that had problems with what they were doing because they knew better, because they were exceptional financers who were very familiar with financial law and financial regulation and having to comply to certain, you know, and have compliance officers and. And I mean the finance market is like very regulated already. They were very familiar with these laws. And then to be told directly from leadership that this is how it was set up, this is the way that we're gonna do this. There's no room for dissent. And I think that that was a top down thing. It really bothers me that they say Enzyme Peak developed this approach because I think it should read, the church developed this Approach.

John Dehlin [00:53:00] And later there's some PR statement where it's like, well, we followed the advice of our lawyers of outside.

JoCee Porter [00:53:06] Outside counsel, which is convenient. But like here they're kind of blaming Ensign Peak for it. But like if there was really an outside counsel, I feel like they'd pretty quickly name drop that, you know.

Rylee Porter [00:53:16] Right. That they'd throw someone else underneath the bus. I think that if there was conveniently outside counsel that they could name, we know how quickly that they throw people in institutions and organizations underneath the bus. It seems convenient to me that there

JoCee Porter [00:53:30] was outside counsel, which is interesting because like one, why don't they have their own like compliance offices? I know substantially smaller organizations that have entire compliance offices. And if you have $100 billion, you should probably be compliant. You know, I feel like that's a hard ask here. So like if you don't have an office specifically going to avoid, you know, to make sure that you're compliant with a lot laws are going to be broken, they're going to be missed. Right. That's like a system. You're building that into the system, essentially. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:54:02] I don't think there was outside counsel. I think it was internal counsel. I think there was internal counsel to execute things in. In this way.

JoCee Porter [00:54:10] And that's all 100% speculative. But my guess would be that they would blame. They would name jopper blame. But I do think it's an interesting thing.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] So can you put. I have a quick question. Can you remember what you were going to say? Because I really don't want to lose it. Yeah, okay. Like I just. When you read that SEC ruling and we'll include a link to it in the show notes, the types of things that were done, when you read them, they're outrageous. Like not filing basic forms that they knew they had to file. Right. Just basic disclosure that any. It's like 101 of investment law. You file certain disclosures and they were intentionally not filing the disclosures. But it's worse. Setting up fake shell companies, choosing weird non Mormon sounding names so they could knowingly naming these fake shell companies so that people would not be able to tie them back to the church. And then completely inexplicably picking Mormon church employees to be heads of these fake shell companies and then having them sign off as if they're owning and managing and supervising these fake shell companies when everyone knew that the money was being held and managed centrally. Like that's really outrageous and egregious violations. And it had to have been that your dad and everyone who worked there, knew this level of deceit and deception and frankly, illegality. And somehow these really good men, these really ethical men, these really loving, compassionate men all became complicit in really outrageous, overt, intentional deception and illegality. Like, I just, I would love. I don't know if you've ever talked to your dad about how in the world was there only one whistleblower of all this outrageous illegal activity, Only one person to this day had the integrity to stand up and say, this is. Is wrong. Has that covers. Yeah. Is there anything you can say about, like, how that happened and how the people who are inside can stay employees and kind of look at themselves in the mirror now that everyone knows that that's what they were a part of? And I'm not trying to shame your dad, but it's kind of outrageous, isn't it?

Rylee Porter [00:56:39] Well, maybe a healthy amount of shame. Maybe a healthy amount of shame.

JoCee Porter [00:56:42] I think it's like, I think it's important to realize that, like, tax filing is different than investment, right? So if you're an investor, you typically don't do tax filing, right. Like, and you don't know what they do. You trust your organization to set that up correctly. Right. And so, like, did the investors know? Maybe they had to turn a pretty obvious blind eye. Are they in charge of this? No. Right. Like, they, they're not doing the filing directly. Right. And, and, and so I think we ought to, like, so maybe they didn't,

John Dehlin [00:57:11] like, your dad didn't know the fake show companies were.

JoCee Porter [00:57:14] Or to the extent of that obvious, like, terribleness, right, where they had, like, fake voicemails. Like, I, my guess is that they probably didn't know. Right. Did they know about the 13 shell companies? My guess is that they're good enough in their field and their jobs that they probably did. And this is a normal thing you do in finance, right, is you put up shell companies to hide your money. That's normal. Right. And so if they're good investors, they've seen that, that's, that's the course, that's what you do.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] It's part of the job.

JoCee Porter [00:57:39] But, like, trying to hide it from people through, like, these, like, means, whether or not they knew about that, I would question actually about actually what they knew.

John Dehlin [00:57:49] That's important clarification.

JoCee Porter [00:57:50] Yeah, sure.

Rylee Porter [00:57:51] Well, I mean, but to your point, first off, thank you for, like, having a outrageous reaction because, like, I wouldn't be able to understand, like, having, like, a nonchalant reaction to any of this information because it is in and of itself Flabbergasting. Like I said, I find it outrageous. And I feel like other people feel the same. I feel like most people's reaction isn't that this is nonchalant. This is nothing. What's a couple hundred billion dollars? Right? But it took so much work to maintain the facade. To your point, it took extra work to set up these 13 shell companies. Extra. I mean, to the point where you're putting in more work to hide these things and to avoid disease disclosure. To what? I mean, it took so much energy and filing and work that I think people were aware of it. I mean, I don't know how you wouldn't be. It reminds me of, like, when companies like Enron go down and all of a sudden the highest paid executives in the room, the most intelligent men in the room are like, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I'm. No. Did you know that? I didn't know that. Oh, isn't it convenient that. That somehow nobody knew what was going on? Crazy. I mean, come on.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Outside counsel.

JoCee Porter [00:59:09] Yes.

Rylee Porter [00:59:10] Outside counsel. Yeah. I mean, like, you guys are smart men. You are smart individuals. People knew what was. I don't think that there. There's this. That's a. To me, that's a convenient answer. A certain level of ignorance. How convenient. Because it took a lot of work to avoid disclosure. So much like, more so than probably anyone wanted to. I doubt that anyone who was doing this wanted to be doing. It's like, can we just file the 13F. What is the big deal, please? It makes more work for me to have to do it into these different. And also shame on the organization. And this isn't just the church, quite frankly. I'll say it. Shame on Enzyme Peak for making their own implementation employees culpable for having to sign off on these shell companies that they knew damn well that they weren't the head of.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] But it's not its own peak. It's Henry B. Eyring and Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson that directed that.

JoCee Porter [01:00:07] Right, right.

Rylee Porter [01:00:08] And Presiding Bishopric.

JoCee Porter [01:00:09] That's the. Yeah. And it is the Presiding Bishopric, not the quorum of the 12. Right. So it's not like in Zen, Peak reports to the Prophet. He doesn't. They report to the.

Rylee Porter [01:00:17] That's not true. They report to the Prophet.

JoCee Porter [01:00:19] Okay, well, they definitely report to the Presiding Bishopric. I know that for sure. Right. And that's why it was Bishop Whatever. Or whatever what? Our wardle or whatever that came on. Because the Presiding Bishopric, they're the ones that are definitely in the form and they are the ones that they're actively in conversations for.

Rylee Porter [01:00:34] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:00:35] But I think that, like, they had people sign off on the name of these companies. I think that's where we kind of get into, like, what is this ethical? Like, is this moral? Like, yeah, it's legal, but, like, that's weird, you know, and start questioning that kind of stuff.

Rylee Porter [01:00:48] And our dad will say that organizations do this all of the time. Right. All of the time. That organizations do this all of the time so that they can kind of, like, manipulate how they're interpreted. Which blows my mind. If you believe in free market capitalism, because there's a certain level of, like, freedom of information that needs to be available for the systems to exist. And people have a right. And. And it's a law. It's a law that we know that, you know, disclosure to the markets and the investing public is required by law.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Well, there's no way it's legal to fake the people are heads of investment accounts.

Rylee Porter [01:01:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] And to have them sign statements that they are managing the funds.

JoCee Porter [01:01:36] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:01:36] When that's not true.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] The funds are managed centrally and that those people literally have nothing to do with anything going on. There's no way that's legal. There's no way.

Rylee Porter [01:01:45] Yeah. Right. And even if other organizations do it all the time. Well, aren't you held to a higher creed?

JoCee Porter [01:01:52] And this is kind of where my, like, big thing was, where it's like, okay, so I get it, like, what you're doing. Like, I've seen down on Wall street, you know, plenty of times. Right. Like, and that's why, like, it wasn't that shocking to me when I first heard because, like, I had seen so many organizations just do at this point and seeing, like, money hoarded to bigger quantities at banks. Right. And. But then it's like, but this is your moral code, you know, and, like. And you're holding yourselves like, we are the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Right. Like, you're a church doing this. Now, let's talk about, like, whether or not this is moral. That sounds pretty immoral. And that sounds against your own fundamental teachings. Right. And that's kind of where I stand.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] Yeah. And I just don't want it to be forgotten that they had to have been watching this massive wealth assemble and realizing there was no charitable work being done. David Wilson makes that point. I thought I was coming to save the world, and all I did was grow the bank account. Right. There's something deeply unethical about not serving the poor within, the needy with that money.

JoCee Porter [01:02:54] And this resonates with me a lot. Cause I'm fine if the church has his money, if they use it for good. I have no problems with organizations having lots of money if they're trying to do good in the world. I think that's a great thing because you need lots of money to do great works of good. So the fact that it exists isn't problematic to me. The fact that it's a nonprofit organization, which I started a 501 nonprofit organization when I was 19. I had to file the same tax form that they're talking about here. Right. Or actually didn't because I didn't invest

John Dehlin [01:03:23] in my 90s that disclose our finances.

Rylee Porter [01:03:27] That's religious.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Don't have to disclose their finances.

JoCee Porter [01:03:30] Right, That's a good point. I wasn't investing, so I don't have to file this form, but I filed tax forms.

Rylee Porter [01:03:34] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:03:35] For my non profit, just like you do. Right. And so like. But like the point of disclosing that or the point of having that money was to do good. And like I, you know, and if that's the point of the church's money, I think that's great. But you need to actually do good, you know, you need to actually use that money for good. And I think that's where the problem is.

Rylee Porter [01:03:58] And for me, like I have issues with the have with the means of which that money was accrued.

JoCee Porter [01:04:08] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:04:09] Because I like, this has always kind of been an issue is like when we talk about organizations having a certain amount of money and like, is that okay and is that moral? Yeah, absolutely. How was the means of accruing that money? Was it through systems of oppression? And I think that's a lot of the conversation that isn't talked about because let's remember the church org like operates very heavily in the black because they don't have to pay their clergy. They talk about that all the time. That there's a certain level of like expectational unpaid volunteer work where other organizations can't accrue that much money all of the time because they have to cover their costs. Well, the church goes well out of its way to not have any cost, to minimize their costs, especially in human capital. They'll spend money on temples to show off, in my opinion. Okay. They'll spend money to look pretty and to build malls and. But do they pay people who are, you know, dedicating their lives to this institution? No, they extract that money from them. And so to me it's also the money is A problem because I see systems of non transparency with the dual expectation that you're going to sacrifice to provide this money that we can invest. But I don't have to disclose anything to you. I mean, just like how insulting it is on the backs of other people's free labor and donations that they're believing is going to charitable ventures. To me, the, the, the revenue stream in and of itself represents a problem. And I think that people should be able to pay tithing if it, if it brings them a lot of joy and happiness and, and have every right to do so. Believe in consent and knowing informed consent. Exactly. Paying tithing brings you value. I think that you should absolutely pay tithing. I think as an interest holder in this organization, you're entitled to know what's being done with that money.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] Yeah. Because there's. So there's like all these. First of all, there's sort of coercion that happens where if people don't pay their tithing, they don't get to go to their daughter's wedding, they get publicly shamed and they don't get to enter the temples or they don't get to be temple married at all themselves. So there's coercion about acquiring the money. There's a colonial aspect where the church is going to all these developing countries and extracting the widow's might and bringing it back. People might not be buying shoes or food and then the money's coming back and being, being used to help send some Ensign Peaks kid on an internship. And I'm making an extreme example. But like there is a colonial extraction that's going on. Right. But then there's also all this volunteer labor, whether it's the missionary force or the senior missionaries. All these people building the church, building its reputation, making it more wealthy. And all of that's volunteer labor, Right. That the church is extracting to then build its wealth. And then there's this final sort of acknowledgment that if you go to work for the church, whether it's in it or legal or, you know, whatever it is that you're going to do for them, you're going to get paid a fraction of your market value. Well, if the church is now a quarter of a trillion dollar organization, shouldn't they be paying the highest salaries with the best benefits? Why would all the employees that work for the church, that wildly financially successful, why aren't they paying top premiums for people to come work for the church instead of David Nielsen and your dad and others taking huge financial Hits to go work for this quarter of a trillion dollar organization that then's becoming fabulously wealthy on the backs of the sacrifices of the people that are employed by the church that make it successful. Like they're just, just. There's so much that's exploitative and coercive about it. And I don't mean to be too ranty. Am I off there?

Rylee Porter [01:08:36] No, I think so.

JoCee Porter [01:08:37] I, I find it very strange, you know and I, I kind of find the concept of like non profits have to, you know, pay less in general kind of a strange concept. Right. I, I think that the church should pay people full market rate, you know, I think they should be competitors and they're not. And that's very weird. And we should question that because we want people to, to be paid well. You know, we want people to have great lives with their families and a lot of people work for the church and what a great organization if you believe in it to set yourself up

Rylee Porter [01:09:10] for success and you pay for some people's lifestyles. I mean like so right, there's a certain amount of like unpaid volunteer lay clergy until you make your way up to the upper echelon of the church leadership. Because that was another hang up for me was I think at the WikiLeaks or sorry, the Mormon leaks time when I think it was eye rings like personal pay stub was, you know, was pretty high. Yeah, was, was public information and you know, because then that was like there was a certain amount of dichotomy there where it was like okay, well you, you expect these converts in Africa to work for free. But then there's organization of well to do already privileged, primarily white men who make at least 80,000 to you know, upward for their lived paid existence.

John Dehlin [01:10:12] The Mormon general authorities easily make six figures. That's been established and likely the apostles are made making 2 to $300,000 a year in compensation, benefits and other types of things.

Rylee Porter [01:10:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] But any leader of note within the corporate Mormon structure is easily making six figures and general authorities two or three hundred thousand dollars a year.

JoCee Porter [01:10:33] Right?

John Dehlin [01:10:33] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:10:34] Is it six? Is that confirmed? I only remember. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Yeah, low level general authorities is confirmed to make like 120k minimum. And that was 10 or 15 years ago. Who knows what it's grown to now.

Rylee Porter [01:10:45] Yeah, yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:10:46] And I don't. And I want them to be paid. And I think that's like the thing, like I think that these big people who sacrifice their lives for causes they believe in should be paid. But so should the small people who sacrifice their life for causes. Right. So should the mission presidents. Right. So should people who are like the bishops. The bishops. Right. I think that, I think they deserve to get recognition in that. It's not like I, I call it weaponization of passion. I heard someone say that like you weaponize someone passion where they have to work for you for free. And I think that's so unfair. We can't take something someone loves so much and weaponize it them against them where it's at a financial cost to them. So I think I don't have qualms with the apostles making money. In fact, I think that's great. I think people should be paid for their work, including the low level people.

John Dehlin [01:11:32] Why should Mormon missionaries be paid to be missionaries instead of pay to be missionaries?

Rylee Porter [01:11:37] And let's talk about where they're going on admissions too, because if you were growing the fastest right now in developing countries, pay those people, oh my God, they don't need your temple.

JoCee Porter [01:11:48] They need, they need money.

Rylee Porter [01:11:50] They need money. They need money.

JoCee Porter [01:11:52] And this is one of the known ways to get people out of poverty. Right. Is you pay for the kids to go to school. Right. And you will eradicate poverty that way. They, this is one of the few known ways you can really help these families in these poor countries. What a great concept to pay people to go to church who need that money, who otherwise could be going and working and being like, okay, we realize you're sacrificing to be here. We acknowledge your sacrifice and we're going to help you and lift your family out of poverty. I think that's a great mission and a great use of stuff like this.

Rylee Porter [01:12:21] Yeah. Instead of expectation that you're going to make certain sort of sacrifice. I've heard too many Mormon missionary stories where like they knew about members who were not buying rice, not buying bread. I mean, and that's like, and that's a story that we've like repeated and upheld kind of in like the, you know, Mormon. I don't want, I don't want to say like theology, but just discourse that was something that like was emblematic was these people who had to choose between making ends meets or buying bread, like why are we honoring these? Why is there not something especially disconcerting about the stories that we uphold, you know, about these people who were impoverished, the widows might story that gave everything that they had. When you're in a position to make those lives better, directly you have the means to do that. What's stopping you from doing that? I mean, to me that was the most Sincere moment In the, like, 90 or. Sorry, in the 60 seconds interview was kind of. I mean, when you have a ton of money, you think that you'd pay for a guy who, like, had a little bit more PR acumen than the individual. But I think the most sincere, you know, thing that. What was his name? Waddle. Brother Waddle.

JoCee Porter [01:13:41] Bishop.

Rylee Porter [01:13:41] Bishop Waddle said was that he's like, we're learning what to do with the money.

JoCee Porter [01:13:46] Which.

Rylee Porter [01:13:46] That was the most sincere statement I heard him say. Everything else kind of came off swarmy, I think you said, or, like, insincere. I said, like, snide and snarky, but I think. And unintentionally so. But I think the most sincere, authentic statement that he said is, we're learning what to do with the money. Oh, I bet you are. I'm like, you know, I don't know if I'm allowed a couple of opinions, but, you know, here's. Here's a few for free, and I

JoCee Porter [01:14:10] think it's at their own cost. And so I obviously know my dad that works for Enzo and Peak. I actually know another person that works in the church office building and at this time that. Do you guys remember the age change for the missions? And this is kind of an example of how I know that the prophet doesn't get a direct call from God during these revelations, because I think that they were blown away by the number of people that went on missions. I can tell pretty confidently that they did not expect this many women to want to go on missions, and they were ill equipped financially to prepare for that, and they didn't have the funds for it. So this other woman lady that I knew who was working at the church office building, her budgets got cut because of the missions that they needed to start funding for. And I'm like, what an obvious use of the Ensign Peak funds to push forward your own mission, but instead you're cutting the already low budget of the church office building. That seems really weird and at, like, your own expense almost to, like, be so secretive about this money.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] Yeah, I'm sure they just don't want some Pandora's box of once church headquarters staff realize there's this massive, endless fund across the street that they could tap into whenever their budgets run dry, I'm sure they'd rather just put up a huge firewall and say, you all manage your finances with the tithing you get and don't come look into us for any support because there'll be endless requests. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:15:38] Well, and that's exactly the point, because when we say, you know, they were afraid that members would stop paying their tithing, quite frankly, I think that's like a unintended consequence of all of this hiding in the first place. I mean, maybe they were concerned that. But I mean, if. If you can dictate what underwear people are wearing, I think that you're pretty safe to say that you're so in control of their actions that they're not going to easily overnight, suddenly stop pain tithing, especially, because let's remember, tithing is a necessary prerequisite to a temple recommend. And your saving ordinances to get you into the highest degree of heaven are only obtained through the temple. So you're not going to immediately overnight, if you're a true believing member, stop paying tithing. Quite frankly, I think one of the bigger fears are, exactly what you're speaking to is that other departments that know that they're overwhelmingly underfunded within this organization are going to think, I mean, right. You know, kind of when Brother Waddle. Bishop Waddle. Bishop. Brother Waddle.

JoCee Porter [01:16:51] I need to get his real name because I don't think that's what it is.

Rylee Porter [01:16:53] Waddell. I think, you know, when he was like, well, you know, we don't want people to tell us to what to do with our money. I think he didn't want other departments to feel entitled to those assets and funding like you're talking about, which I

JoCee Porter [01:17:10] want to push back on that. Like on what, Bishop? Not what you said, what kind of an agreement with what you said, but what Bishop W. Said where he was like, we don't want people that tell us what to do with their money. Maybe you need the help. If you can't figure out what to do with $100 billion, maybe other people are a little smarter than you and know how to handle it. Or maybe they can give you insights like you have. If you love your members and trust your members and you think they're smart people, take their insight, you know, and. And let them do good with the world. Right?

John Dehlin [01:17:39] It's Christopher Waddell, I think.

Rylee Porter [01:17:42] Waddell, yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:17:43] What do you call him? Waddle.

Rylee Porter [01:17:44] I apologize. I apologize for the miss.

JoCee Porter [01:17:47] I think I just read it.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] That's a great point. Okay, so. So, Riley, you basically were able to have that conversation with your dad that his assertions to you endlessly that everything the church is doing is legal wasn't true. And maybe he did, or maybe he didn't know when he told you everything was legal, that they were doing illegal things, but you were Able to have that reconciliatory moment with him.

Rylee Porter [01:18:11] Yeah. And I know for a fact, because of conversations we had, that there was. Was dissent within Ensign Peak, that not everyone wanted to participate in the way with things were participating. But how do you express dissent when your final okay is the mouthpiece of God on this earth? Today we talked about healthy and unhealthy organizations. There is no productive avenue unless you see step outside the confines of the organization and whistleblow like David did at great personal cost. Right. That to me is a problem with the system, that there's no way for these people who know better, who see things, who are smart, who are educated, listen to them, let them to. That all of that power to be centralized under one man just is not healthy for any organization, let alone an organization that at this point is managing this much money. And I'm comfortable to say this. I know for a fact it bothers my father on a deep psychological level when he hears about people sacrificing to send their children on missions or are financially struggling and then sacrificed to serve the church. I mean, I've just heard him say we should pay for everyone's missions. We should. I think it's really hard for him to sit with when he sees individual suffering, you know, and this is in, well to do neighborhoods. I mean, you know, this is still, you know, North Ogden and Ogden. And anyways, in his experiences, I know that it doesn't sit well with him. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:20:05] And this, like, kind of makes me a little uncomfortable that we're talking about this. Not that I, like, think that my dad thinks that, but, like, I'm nervous to, like, have that said.

Rylee Porter [01:20:14] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:20:14] Because I don't want it to, like, come across as, like, we're like, hearsaying that my dad's questioning his employer. Because I'm nervous for the church. Right. I'm. There's such a power grip on his situation that that's kind of scary. And why can't you help, like, be in a very healthy situation and in a very healthy way provide critique or question things or like, without having your pension or your, you know, taken away from you or your employment or, like, your means to, like, your means to finance or even, like, without your membership, you know, even taken away from you. It's sad that you can't critique in a lot of ways that you have

Rylee Porter [01:20:51] to live and operate in fear.

JoCee Porter [01:20:53] Yeah. And that's kind of sad. But I do want to think that it is admirable that the church hasn't gone after Dave.

Rylee Porter [01:21:00] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:21:00] And so that is like Dave Nielsen

John Dehlin [01:21:02] that we know of.

JoCee Porter [01:21:02] That we know know of.

Rylee Porter [01:21:03] Right?

JoCee Porter [01:21:04] Yeah, I think that's great. And like, cuz I. I think that like he signed an NDA and like maybe you could argue he broke it. I'm not quite sure.

John Dehlin [01:21:11] But they haven't, they haven't like sued him.

JoCee Porter [01:21:13] They haven't sued him. And I think that's a very good thing.

Rylee Porter [01:21:16] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:21:16] And I think that's admirable. Like if. If they want to be rise above. I think that's the way you rise above. Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:21] Scientology, maybe Jehovah's Witnesses.

JoCee Porter [01:21:23] They sued.

Rylee Porter [01:21:24] Maybe.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Would have, yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:21:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] So the church is better than Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses that way.

JoCee Porter [01:21:30] The better way to go. For sure. The better way to go to not sue people. But I also think that it's like kind of naive if you think that, like, if anyone thinks that Dave is the only person that questioned these things. Right. With an Ensign pk, I think that's a very naive thought. Yeah. And like he. There's a lot of people that I'm sure have thoughts and I'm sure Dave was vocal within the organization before he had felt like he had to leave to get any sort of change.

John Dehlin [01:21:57] Yeah. Like I spoke, you know, outraged. Like, like, why weren't other people, why weren't there other whistleblowers? But the truth is, when it's your salary, your pension, your reputation, maybe your marriage, there's just. There's just so many people where they just feel like, they feel terrified.

JoCee Porter [01:22:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] And they feel like they can't or the, or the consequences will be catastrophic.

JoCee Porter [01:22:17] And I, I do want to like, kind of question this a little bit where it's like, is Ensign Peak or this concept of this church fundamentally evil? Or like.

Rylee Porter [01:22:26] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:22:26] Because it's like my husband works for Amazon. Right. And Amazon, I don't think we're like hootin as this great organization at all. But like we. That's where I get half of our income from. Right. And so at the end of the day, you kind of have to play with the devil or play with organizations you don't believe in to get paid and to do good work and to do your job. And at the end, that's capitalism. And so I want to like, be like, is that itself bad? And I come to the conclusion that Enzyme Peak is bad in a way that's different than Amazon is bad. And maybe this is because I have to sit with the fact that like, my husband works for Amazon is because these people aren't you know, it's their moral compass as well. Right. And it's not just like this organization that they can like shut off and turn away from and take their salary and go. To be a member at Enzyme Peak, you have to subscribe to the mission, you have to have a temple recommend, you have to ordain the profit. You know, you have to be okay with what they're doing. And, and so I. It's guiding your moral compass, not just your financial security. And I think that's questionable.

Rylee Porter [01:23:34] Well, Amazon doesn't claim to be the one true church on this face of the. I mean, I. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:23:42] Or it doesn't claim to be a nonprofit and like a claim that it's

Rylee Porter [01:23:45] doing good doesn't claim to be the one true churches.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] They've got to be subtext.

JoCee Porter [01:23:49] Okay, well, we can talk about that because I'm pretty sure that they got pretty big tax write offs for their new headquarters. Right. So they get write offs all the time. So do I think they're paying taxes? They should pay more. That's my conclusion.

Rylee Porter [01:24:01] Yeah. Corporate socialist. But I'm only holding this organization to a higher standard because I want them to meet the standard to which they

John Dehlin [01:24:09] hold themselves and their members.

Rylee Porter [01:24:12] Exactly.

JoCee Porter [01:24:12] And that's the point I wanted to echo.

Rylee Porter [01:24:14] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:24:14] Where it's more than just just working for anyone, you know, and it's not

Rylee Porter [01:24:19] only like your financial security for the job you have. I think if you step outside of this organization, you render yourself unemployable. So even if you leave this organization, I think you are going to have a hard time being employed elsewhere. Especially if.

JoCee Porter [01:24:39] If as a dissenter.

Rylee Porter [01:24:40] Exactly.

JoCee Porter [01:24:41] Yeah. Which is kind of ironic. Right. Because like, like our dad left Koch Brothers and was sued and that made him really hard to employ.

Rylee Porter [01:24:49] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:24:49] And so he's kind of. We're seeing that again where it's like you have dissent and frustration and it becomes personal and now you're unemployable and now your financial security is taken from you. Like what a heart wrenching place to be. And, and it's. I don't know, we see it everywhere. Ironic. Ironic. Very ironic.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] Yeah. And that's. Those are some of the sacrifices people don't see about David Lucy.

JoCee Porter [01:25:08] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] Exactly how this has affected his career.

Rylee Porter [01:25:12] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:25:12] Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] Yeah. Okay, so do we want to jump now into the history and the critique you were going to talk about the good. So that was all a disclaimer or did we already cover it?

Debating the Church's Wealth and Transparency

JoCee Porter [01:25:24] I mean, I wasn't going to talk about the good. More as I was going to talk about the justification. Right. Do I think it's good? I don't know how to argue that. Do I think that they can justify having this investment firm? I think that they try to, and I think that that's interesting.

Rylee Porter [01:25:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:37] So you're going to listen, list justifications for Ensign Peak.

JoCee Porter [01:25:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] Okay.

JoCee Porter [01:25:41] And these are things that I've heard, read online, you know, and heard from within the circle of my. When I was an active friend. Right. So the first question that my dad asked Riley, he also asked me, is like, does it matter how much money? Would people be mad if the church only had a hundred million? Is it just because it's the hundred billion number? So I want to actually turn that on you, John, and I want to ask you that same question. And does it matter the amount of money, or is it just the fact that the church has money that's bad?

John Dehlin [01:26:10] Yeah, I think the amount of money absolutely matters. Just because at the end of the day, this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so it's bearing his name. And then you look at what his teachings are. And his teachings, number one, condemned the rich and the mass accumulation of wealth. And then he said, you know, inasmuch as you've done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me. Which means you feed the naked, you feed the hungry, you give shelter to the homeless, and you do good and you give up everything to serve. And so you just. You can't. And you read the Book of Mormon that condemns materialism and consumerism. Like, you just can't have it both ways. You can't carry the name of Jesus Christ and then become a nonprofit and get all the benefits of the shelters of nonprofits, not have to be financially transparent, not have to disclose and use that reputation as a Christian church to gain massive amounts of wealth and then sit on 100 or $200 billion worth of wealth and not do anything charitable with it. No go. And, yeah, the bigger. The amount of money, the. You know, the church taught me this. With great. With great gifts and with great blessings and privileges comes great responsibility. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:27:36] To whom much is given, much is required.

John Dehlin [01:27:38] Exactly.

Rylee Porter [01:27:39] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:27:40] To whom as much is given, much is required by the church's own ethics. It has been given so much, so it must give that much more.

JoCee Porter [01:27:48] So what dollar amount is that? What dollar amount does it become what you're talking about?

John Dehlin [01:27:53] That was a setup.

JoCee Porter [01:27:54] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was a natural progression. Like, because is it the what number?

Rylee Porter [01:28:01] That's a thought experiment that always like I struggled with personally.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:28:05] But my dad, I asked what he wanted said and this is what he said to me. So I want it said right.

Rylee Porter [01:28:11] And I'll say the same thing that I said to my dad is the amount matters. I don't know how like that's like a mu point in this conversation. Like it's an important factor. It's a lot of money. It's world changing money. It's community investing money. It's a. What do you mean? What do you mean? Does it matter how much money? Yeah, because it's a lot of money.

JoCee Porter [01:28:36] But it's 50 billion a lot of money. Like I don't care.

Rylee Porter [01:28:40] I don't understand that. Humans don't understand that amount of money. Yeah. But they have the opportunity to incredibly change things.

John Dehlin [01:28:49] But that's a fair question. What's the number that an organization's allowed to hold without excessive scrutiny?

Rylee Porter [01:28:56] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:57] And yeah. Do you guys know like. But it's a fair question. I get the point.

JoCee Porter [01:29:01] I'm right. And it's especially if you're ongoing.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] If your ongoing annual budget is 7 billion.

JoCee Porter [01:29:08] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] And you want a rainy day fund, your rainy day fund is going to be in the billions at least. I mean financial advice, okay. Financial advisors would say if you can have at least a year or two's worth of salary to help you get by. So I would say it's fair to say at least 20 billion. Honestly, that could fund the church for at least a couple years if all the income dried up.

JoCee Porter [01:29:33] Right, Right.

Rylee Porter [01:29:34] That's a fair answer.

JoCee Porter [01:29:35] I think it's a good answer. Not fighting that. I do want to. The next thing I kind of want to justify or like not justify but like say is like they did donate $1 billion and like we're talking as if they're not donating at all. Right. And, and is that fair?

Rylee Porter [01:29:51] Where did they, where did they donate the 1 billion? Where did they donate the 1 billion?

JoCee Porter [01:29:55] That's just what they claimed. Right.

John Dehlin [01:29:57] Okay. So yes, the church does charitable stuff. I don't want to attack back these points because you're trying to argue.

Rylee Porter [01:30:04] Yeah, the good. Yeah, so you're right.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] The church does a lot of good and that should be acknowledged. Yeah, it's true. Now the one thing I'll say is the church wasn't reporting a billion dollars in annual contributions prior to the whistleblowing.

JoCee Porter [01:30:18] It's a good point.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] That that billion dollars of annual. Number one, that's not what they were doing before it was much, much, much, much less. It was like a billion dollars over like 20 or 30 years.

JoCee Porter [01:30:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] So they've only started giving that amount thanks to David Nielsen's whistleblowing. And even that billion dollar annually is questionable because we don't know what makes up that number. We don't know if they're basically counting up all the volunteer hours of everybody and assigning some monetary value to it. Like we don't know, are they just taking the members money and, and saying it's charitable? Are they counting fast offerings? I don't know that we know what makes up that money. But a billion dollars, if whatever it is, a billion dollars annually is a lot. I just think we have to thank David Nielsen for making that possible.

JoCee Porter [01:31:07] No, and I think that's a good point and I'm like playing devil's advocate so like commenters don't like at me and kill me, you know, like I really don't support this, but I want to make sure we have the full thing.

Rylee Porter [01:31:17] Well, can I answer that question?

JoCee Porter [01:31:19] Of course, sorry.

Rylee Porter [01:31:21] With the, with the God, with the billion of, of investment. I don't know. Yeah. Like to John's point, all of this would be avoided if you were just transparent to begin with. And if you're asking me to see the good that the church does, then please allow me to talk about the harm that the church does.

JoCee Porter [01:31:50] That's a good point.

Rylee Porter [01:31:51] If this money, if we want to talk about the good that the church does in the world and the force of good that this money is, we also need to talk about money that's paid for litigation to cover up sexual abuse claims and silence things. I mean if we're going to have an honest, candid conversation about the good that's done in the world, then we need to be able to open openly talk about the bad that that money pays for as well.

JoCee Porter [01:32:19] It's a really good critique. That is honestly a really, really good critique. And I also kind of want to put into like the nuance ness or like the understanding that like I personally don't think that that $1 billion comes from that one, that $100 billion fund. Right. I think the $1 billion comes from

Rylee Porter [01:32:35] elsewhere from operating money.

JoCee Porter [01:32:37] Otherwise I feel like they would like cheer it that the enzyme peak's doing stuff and therefore they deserve the tax exempt status. Like because that would be what 1%, you know, like in. And you only need to do and the public in the private sector a couple percentage to get that tax exempt status.

John Dehlin [01:32:52] 2 or 3 or 4%.

JoCee Porter [01:32:53] Right. So if they're doing 1 billion from that fund, why not do 2 billion and justify it in a lot of ways? So my guess is that 1 billion doesn't come from that fund. And so that's kind of my critique there where it's like, yeah, that's great, but like you're still hoarding money in a sense.

Rylee Porter [01:33:06] Dave made it good, great distinction there when he, he talked about the checking and savings account. That is from the checking account that this charitable money comes through, but the savings account isn't touched.

John Dehlin [01:33:17] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:33:18] It's not accurate to talk about it like it's one source of money because

John Dehlin [01:33:21] of all this outrage. But they'll do it after Dave's forgotten or excommunicated or long gone.

Rylee Porter [01:33:28] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:33:28] I mean, it sucks that you have to go without the insight like outside the organization to make that change. But. Okay, so the last thing that I wanted to say, and I'm going to actually respond to it my, myself that the justification that I always hear is that like the church is like this great rags to riches story and I, that rubs me such the wrong way. Right. Because like for the average person, going from $100 to $110, that's a lot of work. Right. But going from 100 million to $110 million, that's inevitable. Right? That's the famous quote. So like, at what point did the church not see they're going to get $100 billion? Was that at like, like 50 billion? Do they not see this coming? Like 25 billion? Like what point? Where they're like, holy crap, we're having a ton of money. Like at what? And they're like, and it's going out of control, like whole like what? Like, okay, I feel like that's a very easy cop out answer and a very non genuine answer where it's like, we just didn't know that we would have this much money. It's like, how did you not see at 90 billion? How about 80 billion? Did you not see this coming? Was this not the foreseeable future? At 70 billion? Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:34:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:29] No. When they first set up Enzyme Peak with a few billion, they can figure out what 7% is going to do with a couple billion in 30, 40, 50 years. Like they learn that calculation like their first week of B school, right?

Rylee Porter [01:34:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] What 7% compounded annually is after 10 or 20 or 30 years, how long it takes for money to double. To double your money.

Rylee Porter [01:34:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] And then how does that work exponentially over time?

Rylee Porter [01:34:59] Yeah. Exponential gains. Absolutely. You know, which to me, like, this is my, this is. The frustration I have is that if, if Jesus Christ came to the earth tomorrow and looked at all of this and said, yes, that is exactly what I meant. When in the scripture story, you know, the wealthy man came unto me and he said, what can I do to, you know, enter into the kingdom of heaven? And it was like, well, follow the commandments. And the rich man was like, yes, I am following the commandments and so what else can I do? And then Jesus turned to him and said, and give up everything that you have and donate it to the poor. Give up everything that you had and donate it to the poor. I just, I don't understand a world where Jesus Christ comes back to this earth and goes, ah, yes, so you observed my law of exponential growth and compounding interest. And you know, my Sermon on the Mount was about those who have a lot, should have more and should hide the more and should hoard the more. I mean, it just, it makes absolutely no sense to me. It. I don't understand how you as, as. I don't know, I don't understand how believing members can think that Jesus Christ would come here tomorrow and be like, like, I love this rainy day fund. That's exactly what I meant.

JoCee Porter [01:36:26] Isn't that the tongue in cheek joke for what it is for when Jesus comes again? Isn't that like what they joke about, like, it's the rainy day fund for the second coming. For the second coming the world or something like that?

Rylee Porter [01:36:38] Yeah. And did he not say that it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven? I don't. What Jesus are you referring to? Because my interpretation of Jesus was something like a radical socialist, not a neoliberal, free market capitalist.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:37:00] That's my two cents.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] Okay? And I feel bad because you were trying to give, you were trying to steel man the church's arguments basically. And we just, we kind of reacted to them well.

Rylee Porter [01:37:12] And those are candid, authentic reactions.

JoCee Porter [01:37:14] I think they're good. I think that was good.

Rylee Porter [01:37:15] And the rack to riches tell also bothers me because it's like, conveniently you take on this like we're just a small, humble little church. And I'm like, who believes that? Who's, who's. Who's seen the San Diego Temple and thought, oh, I bet they're struggling. I bet that they are a.

JoCee Porter [01:37:31] But they came from poverty, that they

Rylee Porter [01:37:33] were a rags to riches. You know, I, I Don't think that you get to represent yourself as a very humble, you know, as a very struggling financially struggling, you know, just like financially astute organization when you are flashy with. I don't know the way that you manifest wealth around the world, quite frankly,

JoCee Porter [01:37:57] but like, okay, where do you want to go next from this? Because, yeah, I, I have something I want to say, but I don't know if I should save it for later.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] Oh, well, I mean, I want to cover the things you guys want to cover. So you. If you got something you want to. To say right now.

JoCee Porter [01:38:12] Well, I just had, like, an interesting observation, right, Because I, I went to Israel with my dad and, and it was so, so interesting. And I have hilarious stories being there and being in these rooms with these wealthy people, right? One of the, one of the rooms I was in was someone who owned a 20 billion, $20 million yacht with a $2 million operating cost. Like, this is like crazy money. And they were super, super, super wealthy because they set up a fund in Israel and they did really, really well with that fund. And, and, and honestly, they're building the tech sector there, and I think that's a, a good thing that they're trying to build the tech sector, but they're becoming very rich and, and the church is a large investor there. And so they treated me like royalty, not because of anything I had to do, but because the church is an important investor to them and, and is a big deal to them. And, and so they treated me very well, which I'm so grateful for. But it was interesting being in these rooms because they were rich. They were crazy rich.

Rylee Porter [01:39:08] So rich.

JoCee Porter [01:39:09] It's hard to, like, explain how rich they were, which is. Makes me feel weird. But I looked and my dad was the poorest person in the room, despite my dad being one of the most important investors and likely one of the reasons that they were so wealthy. He was the poorest person in the room by far, right? Because he works for the church and kind of what we talked about earlier, because you work at a lot of boss working for the church, right? You can make a lot more out on Wall street or like, within, like, the different markets. And, and since he's choosing to work for the church, he's not getting to benefit from the investments that he's doing. So he's by far the poorest person in the room. And so I found that very, very interesting that you have these rich people enabled by the church. The church enabled them to be rich on some level by giving them money to Invest. And they did those investments well. But my dad doesn't get to benefit from that. And so I think that's an interesting dichotomy.

John Dehlin [01:40:05] Your dad's making other people super rich,

JoCee Porter [01:40:08] but not his job.

John Dehlin [01:40:08] In the rooms he's hanging out in, he's the poorest guy in the room.

JoCee Porter [01:40:12] Yeah. And I think that's very strange and very weird, but also kind of interesting.

Rylee Porter [01:40:17] Noble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think that the members are meek and I think that the members are humble and I think that the members deserve more from this system. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:40:29] And I think that's the real tragedy is that, well, one that, you know, the church is now enabled to get into these powerful rooms because they have this much money. I think that should certainly be noted that like it's not like any other small nonprofit organization was in this room. They were only in this room because they had tons and tons and tons of money. But like they're making these people sacrifice so much for it. And the church is the true winner and kind of just takes all the everything. Kind of took everything.

John Dehlin [01:41:04] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:41:04] And at the end of the day, like you said, John, isn't it inevitable? I mean, in my mind, like it makes all too sense that like this doesn't, at least to me, act like the church of Jesus Christ here on earth today. But it definitely seems like it was the church of a treasure hunter. It seems like this was like the perfect manifest destiny that Joseph would have blessed if he saw this coming. Yeah. That's a Riley Porter take. That's my $0.02 is I don't see a world where Jesus comes down and, and sanctifies what has become of this organization. But I think that it's exactly what Joseph would have wanted it to be.

John Dehlin [01:42:03] I mean, Joseph got his treasure.

Rylee Porter [01:42:05] Joseph got his treasure.

John Dehlin [01:42:10] Ouch. He just got a posthumously. He didn't get to enjoy it fully.

Rylee Porter [01:42:17] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:42:17] But it's tax exempt growth. So I feel like he's still winning.

Rylee Porter [01:42:20] Yeah. Yeah. This was a church that always had problems with legal disclosure. This was a church that always was hiding things from the general public. This is a church that has, I mean, behavior and repeated behavior mean something. And there is a system of repeated behavior that always was about non disclosure, that was about hiding things, that was about doing things illegally, that was about avoiding legal repercussions, that was about practicing polygamy in a territory and hiding that. I mean this. There's a long and rich tradition of hiding, of illegality and of privilege and superiority that serves a small portion of a minority and an elite minority at the cost of everyone else.

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Yeah, I mean as I'm making notes, and I'm not a hater of the Mormon Church, but I mean there are things that are just factual. The church has a long history of helping people try and live better lives, of supporting families, of encouraging certain types of pro social behaviors. So like there's a, a bunch of good things that many people would say the church has done. And the Mormon Church has a super long tradition of hiding things, of deceiving people, of breaking the law, of, of using coercion and manipulation to gain power and wealth and authority, and of exploiting people with its power and with its deception. It's both.

Rylee Porter [01:44:05] Right, yeah, right. And to leverage its power against a vulnerable population time and time and time and time and time again.

JoCee Porter [01:44:14] Right, right. It's, yeah, correct. I get frustrated because it's like this money enables and I, I don't think people, and I didn't realize at first just like how much like this money, like enables, like, like political power, even enables systems that are bad through the political power.

Rylee Porter [01:44:35] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:44:35] Like you can get into a room if you're able to invest 10, 20, 30, $300 million in a company or in a fund. Right. That's an easy way to get into those big rooms. And that's why they're in these big rooms and that's why Enzyme Peak I don't think was a surprise to people who are in finance. I think they were known, or at least a few, few people knew that they had a lot of money. And, and when you're able to get into those big rooms, you have big say in people's lives. And in. What I've seen of the church is that when they, they're not taking the time to try and, and do good for people or be systems of change. They're, they're trying to do things that help a select few people that look and act and write and read and speak. This is like correct way and that's unfair. But it's enabled by this hundred billion dollars. It's enabled by people like my dad who are able to get into those rooms.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] Yeah, yeah, like a wrinkle on this. If you think about the Civil rights movement and Mormon church leaders calling Martin Luther King Jr. A communist and literally fighting the Civil rights movement. If you think about the Equal Rights Amendment, how the church marshaled its wealth, wealth and its power and its influence to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment for women. If you think about the church fighting same sex marriage in Proposition 8 and using its power and money and its influence to take away legal marriage from people in sovereign US States. And, you know, today the church is using its money and its power and its influence to fight things we don't even know about yet, like when it's used to prop up racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, transphobia. That's when it gets really serious. And when lives are at stake and the future of civilization is impacted by that money and power, and that's where things get really serious.

JoCee Porter [01:46:36] Right. And such. Yes, and such. A missed opportunity to be on the right side of history or to, like, do at least something good. And I don't know, will they change?

Rylee Porter [01:46:47] I.

JoCee Porter [01:46:48] My hope is that, like, Bishop. Not Waddle.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] Waddell.

Rylee Porter [01:46:52] Waddell.

JoCee Porter [01:46:53] That Bishop Waddell is serious when they're like, we're learning what to do with it, because that if you have a hundred billion dollars and you put your mind to it, you can do a lot of good.

Recommendations for Church Reform and Transparency

John Dehlin [01:47:00] So in your outline, you've got a list of things that one of you has a list of things that you would recommend that the Church consider doing. Who wrote that list?

Rylee Porter [01:47:10] Like I said, I have a lot of opinions about that.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] Let's go there while you've got the list.

Rylee Porter [01:47:16] Yeah, if we're learning what to do with the money, I've got a couple.

JoCee Porter [01:47:20] That's a good transition.

Rylee Porter [01:47:23] Yeah. For me, I think that if you choose to go on a mission, it should be fully subsidized, because I think that you're doing work for the Church. I think the nature of the mission. And again, I want to say this because I strongly stopped, you know, being a member a long time ago. I stopped paying tithing a long time ago. You know, is it appropriate that I have opinions about this nature? Probably not, you know, but I hope that these ideas spread because this is still my tribe that I love. I want Mormons to be known as, like, a agent of positive change in the world, everywhere. This is still my tribe. This is still my people. This is still my family. This is still my heritage. And so in those ways, I'm qualifying myself to these opinions. Quite frankly, I think that Mormons should be fully subsidized. I think that the nature of missions can change. Less proselytizing, especially if in your developing countries, but build schools, you know, build communities so that they have access to clean running water. I mean, like, let's truly go out there and let lift the experience of everyone that you interact with. Don't ask for tithing. I don't think that tithing should be mandatory for you getting into heaven. I don't think that a 10% tithe should be mandatory for everyone. And quite frankly, the church has paved the way for themselves because there was a president who said at one point this was never gonna. This wasn't gonna be necessary.

John Dehlin [01:48:54] Joseph F. Smith said that.

Rylee Porter [01:48:56] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] He said there'll come a day when. When. When the church doesn't need the members tithing anymore.

Rylee Porter [01:49:01] I think that day has come. Is my. It's my two cents, I think.

John Dehlin [01:49:05] Or.

JoCee Porter [01:49:06] Or if you believe in the law of tithing and you think that's a great thing, allow you to tithe to other organizations, support organizations that you love and that actually use that money to do good work. Right. Like.

Rylee Porter [01:49:17] Right. But that it should be voluntary and it should not be mandatory.

JoCee Porter [01:49:21] But if you want to tithe. All in favor of that. Yeah, allow that.

Rylee Porter [01:49:26] I think that, like, the Bishop Storehouse is a good start. And for. For non Mormons, the Bishop Storehouse is basically like ways that you get food and. And other products to low and impoverished members, but they have to qualify. They have to ask their bishop for assistance. And then after they've asked their bishop for assistance, they get to go and kind of shop at what are like these Goodwill stores. So I think that that's a good start, but I think that we can financially invest in members, especially if they are financially struggling. Like, there's funds that could be set up for scholastic adventures. You know, we could give more money to BYU students in scholarship. But if you're an individual member and you're facing bankruptcy because of medical bills that exist in your family, I think that you should be able to go to the bishop and say, we need financial help. And I don't think that the food coming out of the Bishop Storehouse is, quite frankly enough, because they can save families from bankruptcy. They can save families from losing their homes and becoming unhoused. I mean, you have the means to just give people money if they've come into financially dire situations. And there's already a system for that. Right. Because you can access assistance through the Bishop Storehouse. But I think it can go way further. Like I said, I think that there could be more scholastic opportunities for anyone who wants to go to byu, including if you're, you know, if you do not come from a prestigious elite family that is able to pay, you know, BYU tuition. I know that, you know, the church already subsidized byu, but I think it can go farther. And I think that we can set up Specific funds to fund individual students.

John Dehlin [01:51:22] It is trying to do pathways in its defense, which is kind of low cost web based education for developing countries.

Rylee Porter [01:51:29] Beautiful. Love it. Great here for it.

JoCee Porter [01:51:33] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:51:33] I mean, kind of. That was my direct offhand ideas from the get go, quite frankly. Pay clergy, especially in developing countries.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] How about background checks for.

JoCee Porter [01:51:44] Oh my God, why is that even like radical, you know, like a weird request like pay your clergy would have helped a lot.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] Pay your employees better. Everyone be volunteers. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:51:58] And, and you know, like it took outside pressure and I, I think they'll get there if they continue getting outside pressure. Right. And that's one of the reasons why we came on Mormon stories.

Rylee Porter [01:52:07] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:52:07] And before coming on, like we spoke with Dave and he gave us great advice to make sure that this was a thing because it's like we want to keep outside pressure to encourage these positive changes. And do I think it will happen? Yes. Do I think it will happen fast enough? No. And do I think we can push it faster? Yes. And I think that's the members themselves responsibility. As Riley said, like, she doesn't pay tithing. I don't pay tithing. I can critique my dad all that I want. Right. But at the end of the day, the members need to hold their own organization accountable. And now that they know, they can. Right. And they can expect and ask for transparency. And hopefully the church listens to that and gives that.

Rylee Porter [01:52:46] And if there's anything we've learned, it's always from external pressure that the church changes. And because I'm in that place of externality, I'd like to be one of those voices because I know that you feel the same way, John, because you love this organization and because you want it to be better, right?

John Dehlin [01:53:05] Absolutely. Yeah. I don't want the church to be destroyed. I want the church to do more good and do less harm, period.

JoCee Porter [01:53:12] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:53:15] Yeah, yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:53:16] Amen.

Closing Reflections and Gratitude

John Dehlin [01:53:18] All right, so I guess we just want to, number one, thank, you know, David Nielsen and his family for the sacrifices they've made that meant, makes all this possible. And I want to thank you both for being willing to speak up. And I want to thank your parents for knowing that you were going to be coming on and for making sure, as far as I know you both knew, both of you know that they're going to love and support you even if you speak out in that sense, I want to thank Jeffrey and Roxanne, Neil Porter, for their support of you, even though they may not like that you're doing it or want you to do it. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:54:02] Or may not agree the ways that we're.

JoCee Porter [01:54:04] That we're doing it.

Rylee Porter [01:54:05] That we're doing it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:07] But mostly I want to thank you two for reaching out to me and being willing to lift your voice and share with us your thoughts and your intellect and your wisdom. It's 10pm here and we started at 10am so that's a 12 hour day. That's pretty amazing. And you both drove here?

JoCee Porter [01:54:27] Drove 10 hours.

Rylee Porter [01:54:28] Yeah, we drove 10 hours to be

John Dehlin [01:54:30] here, so that's amazing.

JoCee Porter [01:54:34] No, so happy to be here, honestly. Thank you for the opportunity. Truly, truly appreciate it.

Rylee Porter [01:54:40] Well, and thank you to Josie. I never would have, you know, valued my opinion enough to think that I deserve to be in these rooms rooms and talk about these things, but Josie was incredibly brave to, to think that we had something to say here and to contact you initially, so.

JoCee Porter [01:54:56] Right. And thanks. Well, first, you're telling the story wrong. I actually reached out a few years ago, but I'd never get a response. So.

John Dehlin [01:55:02] You reached out to me?

JoCee Porter [01:55:03] Yeah, I reached out to Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [01:55:05] Oh yeah, yeah. Doesn't surprise me.

JoCee Porter [01:55:07] And I guess it just got lost. Which is neither here nor there.

John Dehlin [01:55:09] I'm so sorry.

JoCee Porter [01:55:10] But I, I want to thank you for taking it in. I know that like a lot of people would be like, oh, like you're just here because like you're your dad. Right. And I think there's some element of truth to it. No one would be interested in what we have to say about this except for our dad works there. And it's, it's emotionally complex but.

Rylee Porter [01:55:26] And it's timely. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:55:28] And it's timely and important. But I do value that like you made my story feel important. Just like not involved with just, with just unsigned peak.

Rylee Porter [01:55:38] Right.

John Dehlin [01:55:38] You spent six hours on your two stories and two hours on the inside peak stuff.

JoCee Porter [01:55:42] So thank you for that.

John Dehlin [01:55:45] Yeah, my pleasure. No, yeah, thank you. And I'm also, I also just wanted to make sure we didn't do unnecessary damage to your family relationships. And I hope you feel like we've

JoCee Porter [01:55:57] honored that a thousand percent or any issues with my dad's employment. So like Mormon Church, if you're listening. Like we really wanted to make sure to not, you know, the Mormon Church

Rylee Porter [01:56:07] is not scared about what to girls have to say on the side, quite frankly. I promise you. But I do have a strong faith, dare I say testimony that our familial bonds, although complicated and complex and baggaged in some ways are stronger than all of this. And I've never doubted my parents support and their unconditional love.

JoCee Porter [01:56:33] Sure.

Rylee Porter [01:56:33] Yeah. So I think that there's plenty of strength within the family, and I think that the church is not at all worried about what two girls say.

JoCee Porter [01:56:42] I hope they take me on as a force.

Rylee Porter [01:56:44] Yeah, I was gonna say. Well, and then in that light, I'll say for Timothy, Go now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted and your garments are moth eaten, saith the two sisters. The two Porter sisters. You know. Yeah. That is what we see. And. And James. James, five one.

John Dehlin [01:57:17] I love it. We're gonna tell the Bill Gates story really quick.

JoCee Porter [01:57:21] Oh, yeah, that's an interesting story.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] Sorry to save that for the end.

JoCee Porter [01:57:24] Right, right. And it's just an interesting story. I know that change is coming with an enzyme peak because I have a friend or someone that I met during my finance kind of adventures that is high up at the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. And she's an incredible person. And I actually stayed at her house, which was so great. And a few weeks before the whistleblower came out, a few months even. I'll have to check my timelines, but definitely before the whistleblower came out, she flew out to Ensign Peak, not to give consulting or advice, but to tell her story and at least share what they're doing at the Building and Melinda Gates Foundation. And I know that that was a grassroots effort with an enzyme peak to bring her out there. Right. And I imagine that my dad was one of the leads of trying to do that, to bring her out there to just give awareness that. That we there's something that can be done with this money while also making an investment firm. And so that did happen before, but it became very awkward because I was like, well, who paid for her to fly out? The Mormon Church? Didn't they claim to be like this lowly, humble church? They couldn't afford it. So either she herself paid her way to help, you know, just share her story with Ensign Peak, or the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation paid her to go, which is kind of what I think probably happened. And a few months later, it was found out that they have over twice as much money as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I imagine that was one awkward conversation afterwards to be like, oh, you were too poor to fly me out. I had to fly myself out to, like, share my story and maybe, like, inspire you to use your money for good. So I think change will happen. I think that kind of shows that the church is so hesitant. But I think within Enzyme Peak, We, I hope, I hope, I hope that we will see some positive change, slow change.

John Dehlin [01:59:17] I love that story. And I'll just say I was at Microsoft when Bill Gates sort of stepped down as CEO or reduced his software and oversight responsibilities and was really ramping up his involvement in the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. And it was, and this is 98 to 2004, back then it was widely known that he had become an expert in understanding, you know, mosquito nets and water and malaria and like national disasters. Like, he became a scholar and almost a scientific expert level understanding of poverty and famine and disease and hunger and water. And it was so inspiring because this is a guy who had already made his mark in the world. He had already become super wealthy and super successful and every computer everywhere ran his software. And he's like, okay, I've done that billionaire software thing. Now I'm going to become an expert in making the world a better place. And we all knew that that's what he had chosen to do. And some of us were able to go hear him speak about it. And this guy is no dummy, me, when it comes to alleviating suffering and poverty in the world. And like, and I know that with the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, Bill Gates has become a little bit complicated and I don't even know what's true and what's not. So I know for some people, they don't like that he would even be spoken good about. Plus all the weird QAnon conspiratorial stuff and vaccine stuff they want to put on Bill Gates.

JoCee Porter [02:00:57] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:00:57] I, I think he's done amazing good in the world. How cool would it be if, like, the Mormon Church had an apostle who became one of the world's experts in alleviating suffering and poverty and you know, and if the church became known as a major player in the world for doing good?

Rylee Porter [02:01:20] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:01:20] Wouldn't that be just amazing?

Rylee Porter [02:01:22] It'd be really, really an incredible mission, quite frankly.

JoCee Porter [02:01:25] They've been able to do like, what you think of Billy Gates, whatever. But what the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has done has been incredible. And that's with half the money that the Enzyme Peak has. And they've been able to what? Eradicate polio? Right. Like, so you can do crazy, crazy things. You can help so many people and they were able to help tons of people with less than malaria. What Enzyme Peak has?

John Dehlin [02:01:48] Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, let's end on a positive note. What an incredible opportunity the church has ready for it as soon as it's ready to follow the person whose name it bears to follow Jesus's own admonition. Once the church. Once the Mormon Church decides to take Jesus's teachings seriously, look at the good it can do.

JoCee Porter [02:02:17] Right? Right.

Rylee Porter [02:02:18] Unimaginable. The good it could do.

John Dehlin [02:02:21] It just happens to believe. It just needs to believe in and follow Jesus Christ.

Rylee Porter [02:02:26] A little nudge in the right direction from your local apostates and David Nielsen.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks, Porter sisters. This was super inspiring and fun and I'm sorry it took 12 hours.

JoCee Porter [02:02:44] Please don't apologize.

Rylee Porter [02:02:45] Yeah, please don't apologize.

JoCee Porter [02:02:46] Happy to be here. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:02:47] Well, keep. Keep up the good work. What do you both have in store? Do you want to share what your future is going to be or what you want to do in the world, or do you even not know?

Rylee Porter [02:02:56] I'm in Bend, Oregon, so I really hope that John Larsen and I become acquainted. Yeah, exactly. And whether we bond over beers or micro dosing on mushrooms or whatever is the Oregon oregano way, I would absolutely love to build that community. And quite frankly, if there's anything Xmos post modes transitioning. In fact, even if. If you're more. I'm. I'm not sure I'm comfortable going to the church that I've seen in Bend, Oregon, but I would love to be part of a community in Bend, Oregon. So feel free to at me commenters and give me a shout out. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:37] How do they reach you?

Rylee Porter [02:03:38] Oh, gosh. How do they reach me? I'm Riley Coyote on Instagram. R Y, L, E E Coyote with another E at the end.

John Dehlin [02:03:48] Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:03:49] Or just Riley Porter on Facebook. Don't I have a. I have a Facebook. Yeah. Riley Porter on Facebook.

JoCee Porter [02:03:54] Yeah. Personal you might get. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:03:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] Cool.

Rylee Porter [02:03:57] Well, we'll see what happens. We'll see what comes of it. I'm really hoping John Larsen, you know, has a shout out. Exactly. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:04:06] Riley Coyote.

Rylee Porter [02:04:07] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] All right, there it is. John Larsen. Kimmy doesn't mind. Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:04:14] Yeah, well. And he always has that open call that if you correct him, you are allowed to correct him on something. And. And my last one is in the last Superiority episode, he said that Henry VIII beheaded four of his wives and it's two. So let's talk about it.

JoCee's Activism and Future Plans

John Dehlin [02:04:32] All right. And Josie, do you want to say anything about what's in store for.

JoCee Porter [02:04:36] No, I'm just gonna keep being a software engineer and I am a pretty good advocate for women in stem. So if that's your community and you need to find community, or if you're the only woman in the Meetings that you go to, like I am. I'd love to bring you into the community that I'm trying to create online.

John Dehlin [02:04:51] And tell us again, your Instagram or your website.

JoCee Porter [02:04:54] OSI Holiday and then Codeprity tech is the website.

John Dehlin [02:04:58] What's the holiday? Is that your married name?

JoCee Porter [02:05:00] That's my husband's last name, but I, I didn't take it on, so it's kind of a fake name.

John Dehlin [02:05:05] J O c e e.h o l

JoCee Porter [02:05:09] L A D A Y.

John Dehlin [02:05:11] That's your Instagram.

JoCee Porter [02:05:12] That's my Instagram, yeah. And that's what I have, a small community and your website is code pretty tech.

John Dehlin [02:05:19] Okay. All right, cool. You said, you said you're. If you could be an activist full time, that's what you'd rather.

JoCee Porter [02:05:25] I would, I would, I'd love to, to be an activist full time. Talking about like women in tech and also like learning about, you know, the privilege that I have and how I can break down what I know and also help and support people that, that need the help, specifically for women in stem, all STEM fields. I'd love to be a full time advocate though. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:48] All right, well. And when you reached out, I'd have to ask this. When you reached out to me, what did you want to talk about back then?

Rylee Porter [02:05:53] Then that was in 2019, when she first reached out, which was the first time that.

John Dehlin [02:05:58] Were you wanting to do an interview then?

Rylee Porter [02:06:00] Well, I think that.

JoCee Porter [02:06:01] I don't know. I don't know why I reached out, but yeah, I sent you like the same message, actually. I was like, by the way, the CIO of Ensign Peak was my bishop at this time. I hadn't been married, so I didn't have that, but wasn't married by Ensign Peak people. But I was like, I know them. If you ever want to talk about the Wall Street Mormons, I mean, yeah,

Rylee Porter [02:06:21] quite frankly, I nudged her. I was like, josie, you're an influencer. See, reach out and see if John wants to have a conversation. And it happened. So I'm just happy to be here. But it is through Josie's bravery to reach out and to say something and to.

John Dehlin [02:06:39] Yeah, there are hundreds of messages I

Rylee Porter [02:06:42] get a day I could not even imagine. I could not imagine.

JoCee Porter [02:06:46] So I'm not offended.

John Dehlin [02:06:46] No, no, no. I'm just saying I, I am tormented by the fact that I just can't answer the texts and the emails that I get. I just can't. So I just offend everyone, including close friends. Close friends and family are constantly mad at me, thinking that I'm mad at them.

JoCee Porter [02:07:02] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:02] When really I just literally can't handle the. And I'm not trying to brag, this isn't a flex.

Rylee Porter [02:07:08] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] I hate it. So I'm sorry, but I know you're not beating me up, but I, I hate that part about my life.

Rylee Porter [02:07:16] Well, the collectors of stories we were talking to Margi earlier, that to me are kind of like the giver. Right. If you've read that book, you're like the keeper of stories. You're the keeper of memories. And I can only imagine as one man what a full time job that is. And your work has been so important to me, so important personally. So. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] Well, I wish one of those billionaires out there who's no longer in the church would set up some sort of fund so that we could have. And it doesn't need to be me, I can retire. But there could be a staff to do to carry on the legacy of Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation to handle all the email, to provide all the support and to get this message out in even more effective ways. Like my dream is that someday someone who would normally be investing in venture capital funds, you know, that you would have managed, Josie, would find a way to set up an endowment to allow us or this organization or some other organization.

JoCee Porter [02:08:17] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:18] To do much more good than what we've been able to do with our measly little studio and group of part time employees.

Rylee Porter [02:08:25] And what a worthwhile cause and a grassroots efforts that supported by the super chats and everything else. It's so cool to see your live streams when people like come out in spades to support because they believe in the work that you're doing.

John Dehlin [02:08:38] Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm always tormented by the fact that we could do more. You know what I mean?

Rylee Porter [02:08:43] Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [02:08:45] But we're doing what we can and you both were an important part of that today. So. So Riley and Josie Porter, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories. Stay in touch. And I hope this isn't the last time I see you both and I hope it's not the last time we see you on Warmer Stories.

JoCee Porter [02:09:04] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] All right.

JoCee Porter [02:09:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] All right. And drive safely going back home. All right. And thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Love to the Porter family systems, not people and all the good things. Thanks again to, to David and Carly, Carly Nielsen, for making all this possible. And you know, thanks to all our listeners and viewers and supporters and donors. We couldn't do this without you. So if you want to support content like this, Please go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. And that's how we keep providing this content, thanks to our staff that make a lot of this possible. Brooklyn Maven Gerardo Nemo. Margi. So many people are bored. Clint and Carrie, and just everyone who has worked so hard to keep the Open Stories foundation alive. Julia and to to keep what we're doing going. So just lots of gratitude today. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.