Welcome and Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast, Jubilee Middle Ground edition. It is February 4, 2024, and I'm so super excited to have with me the three other panelists whom, with me as four ex Mormons, participated in Jubilees Middle Ground, basically Mormons versus ex Mormons episode. So with me today in studio is Liz. Hey. L. Hi. Thanks for joining us.

Liz Gunnell [00:00:33] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Do we use your last name or you can.

Jillian Orr [00:00:35] Okay, sure.

Liz Gunnell [00:00:36] Lis Gunnell.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] Liz Gunnell.

Liz Gunnell [00:00:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] All right. We have Jillian or. Hey, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [00:00:41] Hey, yo.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Thanks for joining us.

Jillian Orr [00:00:44] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] And Dylan.

Dillan Conrad [00:00:47] Hey, happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And Dylan, do we use your last name?

Dillan Conrad [00:00:49] Sure.

Dillan Conrad [00:00:50] It's Conrad.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Conrad Dill. Dylan. Conrad.

Guest [00:00:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] All right. And. And for the old fogies who have no idea what Jubilee means, Middle Ground is who wants to tell our audience what it is and why it's so cool?

Dillan Conrad [00:01:04] I've been watching Middle Ground for quite a while now. Jubilee Media is a channel that has a series where they bring eight people together to have a nuanced conversation, four on one side of the bait, four on the other. And they typically will debate pretty heated controversial topics politically. But over the past couple of months, they've decided to get more into some nuanced topics related to religion. And now here we've got a Mormon one to. To watch and to dissect.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Yeah. So today we're going to do what's, I think what's called a reaction video, where we, the half of the cast of this video is released. It was released today. Please pause this if you want. Go watch it. A link is in the Description. It's like 50 minutes long. Go watch it and then come back and you can enjoy our reactions. Or you can watch it here first. You may be annoyed by the fact that we're reacting every couple minutes, especially

Dillan Conrad [00:02:06] because this is our first time watching it.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Yeah. Well, for all but me, I cheated. Margi said you're watching that with me first. So I've seen this. The other three here in studio have not seen it yet. And. But I mean, why is this a big deal? Because Jubilee has like 9 million subscribers on YouTub. Like, my kids don't necessarily pay much attention to Mormon stories, but they. They watch Jubilee, and I think you or a lot of people close to you know about Middle Ground and think it's super cool. So that's.

Jillian Orr [00:02:39] So now you're cool. Now you're cool that you're on Jubilee.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] I mean, I'm at least in. In the conversation of cool. Maybe.

Dillan Conrad [00:02:47] I wonder what the View count is right now even, because it's. It's going to be viewed by a lot of people.

Liz Gunnell [00:02:51] It dropped a couple hours ago, right?

John Dehlin [00:02:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're. Same day.

Dillan Conrad [00:02:55] The Christian one's been viewed by over, like, 1.5 million.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Yeah. I'll check the view in just a second. Um, but we're stoked. So what we're going to do is we're going to play it, pause it every minute or two, and react. But I don't know, does it make sense maybe for each of you to introduce yourselves first and just tell our. Because it's fun to have y' all on Mormon stories? Dylan, you've never been on Mormon Stories. Liz, you've never been on Mormon stories. Jillian, you're on Mormon Stories this week. Yeah. Right? Yes.

Cast Members Share Their Backgrounds

Jillian Orr [00:03:24] So, yeah, I. I think it's. Yeah, I think we kind of talk about. Cause none of us, like, a couple of us have never met before. John and I knew each other, but it was kind of cool to see where we all came from and how we were picked or selected for this. Obviously, my history was opening my gown at graduation, and so people knew me as kind of being an advocate for the LGBTQ rights, both within the Mormon Church and within just the university in general. And so that's kind of my history. And John and I had done a podcast before in the past about this, so I think I was selected just potentially for being a queer ally who had been raised very orthodox Mormon throughout my past history.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Yeah. Yeah. And you were fantastic, Gillian. I'm so glad they had you on.

Liz Gunnell [00:04:11] There were so many great moments that you had. I cannot wait to see them again.

Dillan Conrad [00:04:15] It's gonna be awesome.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The audience is already telling us that it's got 30,000 views, which is pretty good for a couple hours. Like, I don't know what a good number is for a couple hours.

Dillan Conrad [00:04:25] That's definitely the YouTube video. That's the only YouTube video I've been on that's had that many view.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Okay, excellent. All right. All right. So, Jill, Liz, do you want to tell us about you a little bit?

Liz Gunnell [00:04:36] Sure. I'm from Arizona, born and raised Mormon, and I left the Mormon Church in 2015 and read the CES letter in 2020. And so it was around 2020 that I started making some ex Mormon content on TikTok Under Lord Liz. And I don't make so much of it anymore, but because it's on there and, you know, I'm kind of sporadic with it, but I got an email from Jubilee, asking if I was interested in being one of the ex Mormons. And so I filled out their questionnaire and they had me on. So yeah, that's how I was involved.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] All right, excellent. Dylan, was there anything else you want to say about that?

Dillan Conrad [00:05:13] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Okay. Any background or anything? Did you all do backgrounds?

Dillan Conrad [00:05:18] I didn't, but.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Okay, go ahead.

Dillan Conrad [00:05:19] I was born and raised in the LDS Church. I did it all. Served a mission to Houston, Texas. Got married in the temple a few years after getting home, have two kids. A couple years ago, just decided that I wanted to bring up a new chapter of my life and decided to come out to my family and to my ex wife. And that all went really well, you know, with the way that people need their time to take to process things. And I moved on with my life and I have a really great relationship with my ex wife. And now I'm married to an incredibly kind and patient man who is just awesome and helpful with me and my two kids.

Dillan Conrad [00:05:55] And yeah, my journey about leaving the LDS Church was more about just whether I felt happy in religion. And once I realized that it really just isn't something that makes me happy and something I want to continue, it was really the easiest decision for me just to step away and move on with life.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] Brilliant.

Jillian Orr [00:06:15] Tell them how you got on. How you got on.

Dillan Conrad [00:06:18] That's the cool part. I actually just applied for this. I'd been watching Middle Ground for a while and noticed that they were doing casting for Mormons versus ex Mormons. So I actually filled out the application myself and thinking that it would just be like a cool experiment to see how far I got and look where I am today. They reached out to me through email, I did a Zoom interview, and then I went to LA and filmed this video. And it was a really great experience, but I never thought that it would would come to this. But I'm really glad because I was. I was ready to tell my story but also be involved in a conversation with people who had similar but unique stories as well.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] Yeah, excellent. Well, for those who are coming to this link, not as listeners or viewers of the podcast, I'm John Dehlin. I grew up in Katy, Texas, which is near Houston, did all the Mormon things, served a mission in Guatemala, went to BYU, married my wife Margi in the Temple, Washington, D.C. temple. Had four kids, pursued a tech career, Microsoft, MIT, stuff like that, and then left Microsoft to start this podcast after I had a crisis of faith in Mormonism. And Mormon Stories is probably the longest running podcast in the world. It's been going on since 2005, if you can believe that. And the Mormon Church has communicated me in 2015 for the podcast. And so, interestingly, this is not the first time Jubilee tried to do this episode.

Jillian Orr [00:07:51] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] So in terms of how I got involved, a couple years, Jubilee reached out to me and they said, you know, John, will you be on a Mormons versus ex Mormons panel? I'm like, I guess. And they're like, you have to fly yourself out there, pay your own way, put yourself up. But if you're willing to do it, you know, we'd love to have you. Because normally they try and pick people from the LA area because it's just cheaper, I think, and more convenient. So I did a couple years ago, right at the beginning of COVID I flew out to la.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] There were three other ex Mormons with me and four other Mormons on the other side. We recorded the whole episode. I was so super excited about it. We were all stoked. We thought it went really well. And then they never aired it.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] And I was so, like, freaking devastated and a little bit annoyed, honestly, because I had taken two or three days out of my schedule and paid my way there. And I almost did like a I'm mad on the Internet YouTube video. I'm so glad I did, because I wanted to.

Liz Gunnell [00:08:56] But then didn't they try again? Like, this was the third time?

Jillian Orr [00:09:00] Well, they reached out to me.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Okay.

Jillian Orr [00:09:01] So it was a couple of months ago. I said, about five or six months ago, they reached out to me and they said, hey, we're gonna do a Mormon versus ex Mormon coverage on this. Will you come and be a part of it? You've gotta fly yourself out. You've gotta house yourself and come be a part of it. And I was like, no, I'm not gonna. Cause I'm not gonna pay for it. And so they're like, okay, well, we're gonna do it anyways. And I was like, awesome. Good luck. Like, excited to see it. And then it must have never happened, because then they reached out to me again, like, just a couple weeks before we all went out, and they were like, hey, we'll do it again.

Jillian Orr [00:09:30] We'll pay you out. Come out here. And so they covered it, and we all went. And we were all crossing our fingers. Third time's a charm. That they would actually air this one.

Dillan Conrad [00:09:38] Yeah, they were just waiting for this. Dream team. This is really special.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] I will say that it made sense to me that they didn't publish the first one because the. The Ex Mormon side came across really well and was really strong. And then the. The Mormon side was super weak sauce. Not. Not that they're bad people, are not smart people. They just. They weren't prepared.

Dillan Conrad [00:10:05] Was it just a lot of testimony bearing.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] It was just people that weren't super informed about the church or its history, people that weren't practiced at all in talking about Mormonism. And honestly, at least two of them were as progressive as most of the ex Mormons. So it just. The Mormons just came across as either liberal or ex Mormons or just super weak and bad communicators.

Liz Gunnell [00:10:30] What they told me in the interview process was that the first time that they filmed it, it was too nice. Well, not nice, but they said that kind of like what you're saying. The Mormons were not taking very hard stances and it wasn't as much of a push and pull. So they kind of wanted me in the interview to be a little bit more aggressive. And I think that when we did film this, because I don't know if you want to talk about the Mormons they had, because we were the ex Mormon panel, but the Mormons also, they knew what they were talking about. They had experience in the podcasting world talking about Mormonism. So I think we had a really great discussion.

John Dehlin [00:11:09] Yeah, for sure.

Jillian Orr [00:11:10] And I think that's important because I've already heard from my best friend who's already been watching it, and she's been telling me that she can understand both sides of it right now. Like, as she watched it, she's like, I agree with them on this side, but then I agreed with you guys on this side, and I think that's the whole purpose of middle ground.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Yeah, for sure. Yep. So they. I think they did a good job getting stronger Mormons. I was super. You know, obviously there are. If you're thinking about people, I'm a podcaster, probably the most well known and successful Mormon theme podcast in the world, Mormon Stories. Right now, that's not bragging. I think that's just. Just numbers. But there are several types of people that they could choose to be Mormons, whether it's Patrick Mason or Richard Bushman or Terrell and Fiona Givens or, you know, the kind of the apologetic older Mormon crowd. But then if you're going younger, there's like, oh, my gosh, there's Carden Ellis and Kwaku and the midnight Mormons or Ward radio crowd or, you know, a lot of other.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Jacob Hansen. You know, there's a lot of YouTubers right now. That are, you know, even sort of ultra conservative Mormon YouTubers. And, you know, obviously Kwaku and Cardan have been super critical of me to the point of, in my opinion, defamation.

Jillian Orr [00:12:30] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] 100 superly, super horrible defamatory stuff that's untrue. And in some cases, life ending. So I was worried that Cardin and Kwaku would be chosen, especially because I knew that Cardin lives in the LA area. So Margi and I drive up to the studio or parking in the parking lot, and I'm like, I bet they. I bet they have Carden and Kwaku on. And Margi literally says, there's no way. And then Carden drives up at his big black pickup truck, jacked up, and him and Kwaku walk in and I'm like, holy crap, they chose Carden and Kwaku. What did you all know who they were and what'd you.

Going Into the Jubilee Filming Experience

Liz Gunnell [00:13:13] I did mostly through watching Mormon stories and kind of just hearing that back and forth a little bit. But I walked in the building and I think I was the last ex Mormon to get there. I walk in the building and one of the producers is giving me a tour, and she walks me over to where the Mormons are gathered, and she walks me right up to Carden. And I'm not gonna lie, he. He looks me straight up and down and goes, who are you? Cause I mean, John Dehlin's in the building and he's like, who's this? Who's this girl? And I did the. I was like, I'm Liz. Who are you? Yeah. And then I joined the rest of the ex Mormons in our green room.

Dillan Conrad [00:13:53] I think for me, Cardan wanted to approach it as more of like a buddy, buddy thing. You can even see it in the filming of the actual episode. It was more just like, sup, bro? And like that kind of thing.

Guest [00:14:03] So.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Did you know who he was?

Dillan Conrad [00:14:04] Not at all. No.

Jillian Orr [00:14:06] I had no idea who they were. I recognized Quake who's face, but not enough to know what they did or anything. I. I hadn't seen any of their episodes or content until after which I'm really grateful that I hadn't so that I had just a neutral space to come at it with our conversations.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Well, for me it was super stress. Cause these are guys that have called me horrible things on the Internet.

Dillan Conrad [00:14:27] I can imagine.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] I didn't know what it would be like to be in the same room

Jillian Orr [00:14:30] with them and looking back. I went home and watched their stuff that they. The episodes they posted about you and I Just wanna say I have the utmost respect for how you carried yourself and how you showed up and represented and how cordial and respectful you were, because I. Again, I'm grateful I hadn't seen those in advance because of how respectful you were. I would never have guessed that they said those things.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] Well, yeah, it was hard, but I did. I went right up to them and shook their hands and said, hey, guys, and tried to disarm it. Because I. I mean, I. I think it'd be fun to talk about our goals. Like, were you guys worried about going in? Oh, yeah. Were you stressed about it? And what were your biggest worries or goals or stresses? Jill?

Jillian Orr [00:15:11] I think for me, going into it was. I had asked them why they wanted me, because I know, you know, for, like, I know that I'm known for my graduation, but I was like, why was I selected? What was the purpose for me? And so they did say that I was the only lesbian that was going to be on air. And so when I went in, I had thought about it so much because I felt that this going out to the world, I was representing the queer community of ex Mormon individuals. And I think that felt. I know. Like, I know that's not what.

Jillian Orr [00:15:42] I wasn't chosen for that, but people who've never seen or known or learning, that's what I represent. And so I felt a lot of pressure to make sure that I was representing people well, in a way, that was also my authentic experience, but also that represented the community in general. So I felt a lot of pressure. And so my intention going in was to not have the most facts and the most data and the most anything. It was to be authentic as possible and to make sure that I was sharing my experience that would be able to be relatable to other individuals.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] Love it. But I mean, in a way, you filled a quota, you filled a checkbox, maybe like many of us did.

Jillian Orr [00:16:19] Kind of like a token.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Yeah. Like how you don't want to feel like you're carrying all ex Mormon queer people or even lesbians on your shoulder. Right. That's. It's a lot of stress. Right?

Jillian Orr [00:16:30] Yeah, it did feel like a lot going in.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] Yeah. Yeah. At the same time, I'm sure you were honored to be chosen, right?

Jillian Orr [00:16:35] I was. And I was. I was grateful for it because I want to be able to. To represent and to stand up for individuals so that they can also understand and be a voice for them. I feel that that's one of my strengths that I can do, is I can be a voice and So I just wanted to make sure that I did it well.

Liz Gunnell [00:16:49] A super strong voice. No, you carried it so well. There's so many great, articulate moments that you had that were just fire.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] So, Liz, what were you thinking going in?

Liz Gunnell [00:17:00] Yeah, I wish I'd asked them why they picked me because I don't really know how they found me, but intentions going in. I kind of end up saying it at the end of the podcast, at the end of the episode. So I'm curious if they're gonna show it, but a little bit to do with, I guess, the lack of communication with my family. I love ex Mormon content. I've been out for eight, almost nine years and read the CES letter only four years ago now. And it's something that I'm still just thinking about a lot. And I watch a lot of ex Mormon content. I'm really interested in these topics and I'm one of five kids and only two of us are out and I was the first one.

Liz Gunnell [00:17:42] My younger brother left just two years ago and so I don't know, the Mormon Church just, it feels like a very big deal to me still. And I watch a lot of your content. I love talking about it and can't talk about it with my family. And I think that I almost took this as an opportunity to be able to talk to people that believe the way my family does and have that open conversation. It was honestly perfect, like to have this middle ground. It kind of was like a stand in for having this conversation with my own family.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] I love it. Yeah. Okay. And Dylan. So Liz, I, I had, I knew you from your tick tock and Instagram and we had communicated a little bit. So that felt good to know you were going to be there and, and Jillian, or to, or to discover. Oh, I think it's worth mentioning. We, Margi and I reached out to you to have dinner with a couple other friends the night before. The night before we were filming the

Liz Gunnell [00:18:36] podcast and you're like, you were in town, you were like, John, you reached out to me and you're like, hey, I'm in town. We've been like social media friends. I'd love to meet you in person, introduce you to some other ex mos. And I was like, great, let's get dinner. And I was like, I'm so excited to tell John I'm going to be on this podcast tomorrow. And first thing I asked, I was like, john, why are you in la? And he's like, have you heard of Jubilee?

Jillian Orr [00:18:55] Shut up.

Liz Gunnell [00:18:56] I'm going on there tomorrow. So it was super surreal to meet you for the first time and then find out that we were both going to be on the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Yeah, that was fun.

Liz Gunnell [00:19:03] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:19:03] Because they don't want you to know who's on it. They, like. They don't tell you. They're not. They wouldn't tell me who was on it. So I actually texted John. I was like, john, I'm going to do this thing. He's like, I'm going to be there, too.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] Yeah, that's fun. Okay. So, yeah. So, Jill, I'd known you, obviously, and you, Liz, but. But Dylan, I had no idea who you were, so I'm like, who's this dude?

Dillan Conrad [00:19:23] Yeah. No, you would have to search for me. My only claim to fame, and let's not get ahead of ourselves, is I was in a 2000, 2006 movie called Church Ball, where I played Andrew Wilson's. Who's Owen Wilson? And Luke Wilson's older brother, his son, with Gary Coleman, Fred Willard, directed by Kurt Hale, who did the Singles Ward. If anyone's seen that movie, I owe you 90 minutes of your life back. It's a good one.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] You're a child actor.

Dillan Conrad [00:19:49] Yeah, Yeah, I survived that, but other than that, I don't really have a. Drug abuse.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] How's the drug abuse habit?

Guest 1 [00:19:55] It's.

Dillan Conrad [00:19:56] It's a daily thing.

Jillian Orr [00:19:57] He just got out of rehab before we filmed.

Dillan Conrad [00:19:59] Yeah, I'm trying. Can I actually get out of here for a second? No. But for me, I just. I applied and I just, like I said, wanted to have that nuanced conversation that I never really got to have with my family. To be honest, that was the hardest thing for me is I was on a podcast a few years ago called Listen, Learn and Love with Osler. Osler. Yeah. And it was really good experience.

Dillan Conrad [00:20:26] Yeah. But I wasn't really ready to share my. Not even. I wouldn't say my full story. It was just my story at the time. And so when that podcast came out, my family took a little bit of personal offense to it. And so when it came to this situation, even though I was very glad to be a part of it, I didn't tell a lot of people in my life that I was doing this. I'd told a few friends, my younger brother, my husband.

Dillan Conrad [00:20:51] And then it wasn't until the episode actually became a reality that I reached out and said, hey, I was doing this in la. It's coming out this Sunday. Watch it if you want. I didn't want to get into too much detail with It. Because I don't think.

Dillan Conrad [00:21:03] To be honest, I don't think it's for them. It's for all the people that are watching it today and beyond. I was very thankful to be a part of it, and it was the time for me to have this conversation. And like I said, I mean, you search for me on social media. I'm definitely on Instagram, but not like this. Like, it was just a really good experience for me, and I was ready for it. I'm glad that I did it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] Yeah. Well, I'll just say really quickly that for me, I feel like if the world had to choose one ex Mormon, like, just because the podcast, they. They excommunicated me. It was a New York Times story. It went global. And then Mormon Stories is the biggest podcast. So, like, I'm thinking I have to sort of represent all ex Mormons across the world, but not come off as a jerk. Not embarrass my kids who are gonna watch this because they actually like this show, but give lots of space to all of you wonderful panelists and to give the other side respect, have the right tone, but still deliver the messages, you know, with passion, but not too much passion. And I was a wreck. I was a wreck.

Guest [00:22:13] No pressure.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] Yeah, no pressure at all.

Jillian Orr [00:22:15] And the instructions they gave us, too. They were like, you can cut each other off, but don't monologue, but tell us your personal story and give us a good. And talk a lot, but don't talk.

Liz Gunnell [00:22:24] Do it all at once.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Yeah, yeah. So I was just.

Dillan Conrad [00:22:26] It was a lot. It would have been devastating if they chose not to release it this time. I think they would have just had to wrap it up and be like, we're not doing the Mormon thing anymore, because this was the way. This was the one to do.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] And I. I'm aware of instances where stories were done for news organizations and the church shut them down. Like 2020 level, Nightline level, where the church hears about it, sends the lawyers. So I was worried the church was. That's why I never really thought about this.

Dillan Conrad [00:22:52] Didn't even cross my mind.

Liz Gunnell [00:22:53] But two hours.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] I know, I know.

Dillan Conrad [00:22:57] Give it some time.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Yeah, yeah. Hopefully it won't get deep sixed, because this could. This could reach more people about Mormonism than.

Dillan Conrad [00:23:04] Yes, it absolutely could.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] Than almost anything that's ever been put on the Internet. Now that might be.

Liz Gunnell [00:23:09] I mean, they have 9 million followers. Almost.

Jillian Orr [00:23:11] Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [00:23:12] It's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] Yeah. Yeah. All right, so without any further ado, what we're now going to do anything else before we jump in now.

Dillan Conrad [00:23:18] Let's do this.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] So without any further ado, we're going to play. It's about a 50 minute, 50 minute, 50 second video. We're going to play it and pause every couple of minutes and react.

Dillan Conrad [00:23:28] Are we going to do the Patreon exclusive?

John Dehlin [00:23:31] I can pull that up.

Dillan Conrad [00:23:32] We need to.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Do you think we should. I think it's about masturbation.

Dillan Conrad [00:23:36] It is.

Jillian Orr [00:23:38] Let's start here and see how far we get.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] Okay, I'll try and pull that up on the side. All right. And I've seen this, unfortunately, because Margi made me watch it with her. Fortunately, the rest of these wonderful people haven't. So let's go ahead and roll the tape. This is Can Mormons and Ex Mormons see Eye to Eye? It's worth mentioning that they had a different name, I think when they first released it on YouTube. What did you see?

Reacting to the Cult Question Prompt

Liz Gunnell [00:24:02] She said is. Is the Mormon Church occult religion?

Guest 1 [00:24:06] Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [00:24:07] Yeah. And they changed it to what is it now?

John Dehlin [00:24:10] Can Mormons and Ex Mormons See Eye to Eye?

Dillan Conrad [00:24:13] They'll probably keep it that it could change again, but.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] And there's a way to ab test titles and see which ones do better. So there's a chance. They tried both titles and then went with this one.

Liz Gunnell [00:24:23] I was thinking that putting Cult in there in the title might be a bit triggering for people. So they may have been like little let's.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] Let's back it up or off putting the Mormons.

Liz Gunnell [00:24:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, so let's. Let's. This is Can Mormons and Ex Mormoncy Eye to Eye Middle Ground from the Jubilee YouTube channel. Hope. Hope you all enjoy.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:24:45] I am saying that that's a yes or no.

Video Clip 1 [00:24:48] That's a yes or no.

Video Clip 1 [00:24:49] Do I believe that Heavenly Father would keep her out of the celestial kingdom

Video Clip 1 [00:24:52] if she continues to have lesbian relationships?

Video Clip 1 [00:24:55] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:24:56] Hi, my name is Gen, and I explore social and controversial issues through both sides. And I'll be moderating this episode of Middle Ground, Mormons versus Ex Mormons. And the first prompt is Mormonism is a cult

Video Clip 1 [00:25:10] coming in hot.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:12] All four of us stepped forward.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:15] You know, I think some of the things that are important to pay attention to are like critical things in your life that you're told how you're supposed to do them. Like your sexuality, the way you dress,

Video Clip 1 [00:25:25] what you eat, what underwear you wear.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:28] Mm.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:28] What made me finally. Cause it was hard to admit growing up Mormon. It was hard to admit that it was a cult. But I think when you look at, again, the critical thinking, the Lack of it, I think, is a big red flag.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:41] I feel like with Mormonism and growing up in that culture, which is that word right there, I had no issue stepping forward, but not necessarily to specifically focus on the negative connotation, but really just what the word is. Let's call it what it is.

Video Clip 1 [00:25:56] I'll just speak kind of from a psychological perspective, because that's my background.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:00] Let's go.

Video Clip 1 [00:26:01] Does the organization withhold information from its members with the intent of controlling the thoughts of the members? Does the organization manipulate the members through a motion? And then do they have excessive controls and behavior? And while it's deeply offensive to tell anyone they're a member of a cult, no one's gonna ever say they're a member of a cult. Cause no one thinks they're in a cult. Can we have the disagreers step forward?

Video Clip 1 [00:26:29] Oh, snap.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] All right, let's pause that. Go ahead, Joe.

Dillan Conrad [00:26:31] The squeaky stools.

Jillian Orr [00:26:32] I know. I remember that. Something they missed in that was when you talked about the bite model. And they cut that part out unless

Liz Gunnell [00:26:39] you talk about it.

Dillan Conrad [00:26:40] We filmed for like three and a half hours. It's crazy to think all the stuff that they cut out of there.

Jillian Orr [00:26:44] But the part where you had talked about the bite model, I think is really important that they missed. Just. Do you want to explain what that is?

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Yeah. Yep. So Stephen Hasson, I've had him on Mormon stories. He's the world's cult expert. He has a book called Combating Cult Mind Control. He's viewed as the world expert. So he came up with the bite model, which basically identifies as an acronym four main traits of a cult. Behavioral control, strong behavioral controls. Strong control of information. That's the I thought control. That's the T. And then emotional manipulation. That's the E. That's the bite model. And so it's a rubric from which to evaluate all organizations. So, yeah, they cut that out. But Carden does mention it, but go ahead. What were you.

Jillian Orr [00:27:34] No, just the part of that and another part that I had said at the beginning was that you never know that you're in a cult. Like, when you're in a cult, you don't know that you're in it.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] Yeah. Yeah. Any other reactions? No. All right, let's. Let's keep going.

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:27:52] So I'm a convert to the church and born and raised in a part member family, lived a gay lifestyle.

Video Clip 2 [00:27:58] This is Timber.

Video Clip 2 [00:27:59] Timber and I. It's a little disingenuous to me when people say that the church tried to hide stuff from Me, because I grew up in a family that was very stereotypical, so just very strict. And I remember things being talked about, like polygamy, like lots of sensitive church history topics growing up. And that's partially why, when I distanced myself from Christianity generally to go live a gay lifestyle, I really had concerns with the church. But ultimately, knowing those things only strengthened my testimony. When I came back to it, I completely.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] All right, really quickly

Dillan Conrad [00:28:46] with. What's his name again?

John Dehlin [00:28:48] Timber.

Dillan Conrad [00:28:48] Timber. I just got very.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] For those who don't know, Timber identifies as a gay, active, active Mormon who's married to a woman with kids.

Dillan Conrad [00:28:57] I just.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] I got really your foil. Right.

Dillan Conrad [00:29:01] I was just looking at him and just noticed a lot of the cost. Dissonance that was going around. It was really hard for me to look at him because of how much it seemed to me that he was not too strong in what he was saying. You could tell that he was a little bit lost. And I don't know if anyone else felt that way, but it made me a little bit uncomfortable.

Liz Gunnell [00:29:24] Yeah, I. Especially with that first comment that he made. I think I had wanted to respond in the moment, but we just kind of got swept away. But the fact that he said it's disingenuous for people to say that the church is hiding things from him because he was told about polygamy, he was told about Adam, God theory, and blood atonement, and he was told everything. And I was like, you are the exception, my guy. And it was. It was just kind of frustrating.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Yeah. Because can't he distinguish? Can he know that there's enough people that feel like they weren't told the truth about the church that he can say, I get that other people didn't have that experience, but for me, I was told the truth. To label it as disingenuous was super off putting for me.

Liz Gunnell [00:30:04] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] As was him calling it the gay lifestyle. Did you guess it? Jill, do you want to reserve the moment?

Jillian Orr [00:30:11] He said that. I was just like. I just grabbed my.

Dillan Conrad [00:30:14] Did he just say that?

Dillan Conrad [00:30:15] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [00:30:16] The lifestyle. I'm like, oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] You couldn't pick a more triggering thing to say to gay people in the room.

Jillian Orr [00:30:21] It really is like, that's so true.

Dillan Conrad [00:30:23] And that's what he feels is like the weight, the. The laurel that he's gonna rest on, because that's what feels comfortable for him. Cause he's not. I think that's where the words are important for him, so he doesn't get too far in the weeds with the situation. But that's what the church calls it.

Jillian Orr [00:30:37] The church calls it the gay lifestyle. And so I think that's where, when you pull it away, it means it's a choice. Right. And so, but going back to what he was saying about it being disingenuous about knowing this information, I think about how many people are baptized into the church not knowing those things because missionaries aren't telling them those things. Like, nobody knows those things. Like, okay, he may be understood some of it, but they don't know that 14 year olds were being married off, that men were being sent away and then their wives were being married. Like there's stuff that the members are not knowing that they're being baptized into. So that's where I was like, you're the exception.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] Most Mormons today in 2024 don't know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

Jillian Orr [00:31:16] I didn't know a huge chunk of things until like maybe a year ago. And I was raised very orthodox Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] And I think that was your experience as well.

Liz Gunnell [00:31:23] Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] Okay. So that was, that was a little bit triggering. Yeah, let's, let's keep going.

Guest 1 [00:31:32] He left that lifestyle behind. And of course I still have same sex attraction, but I am definitely happier now being married to a woman, having kids than I was with my boyfriends.

Dillan Conrad [00:31:47] When I think of a cult, I think of an organization that's really controlling. And they don't let you exercise freedom or autonomy. They control how you think, they control what you say and how you say it. But if I look at Mormon culture expansively, I don't see people that are controlled. I feel like the word cult, I mean, if you break it down to mean at some point someone suggested that I live my life a certain way, then everything's a cult. And if everything's a cult, then nothing's a culture cult.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] There are many reactions, but this was

Liz Gunnell [00:32:22] my favorite line of his.

Dillan Conrad [00:32:23] He had such a pleasant speaking voice.

Liz Gunnell [00:32:25] Nothing's a cult.

John Dehlin [00:32:27] I mean, I'll just say, regarding the Mormons, I, I. So I thought Kwaku came off way better.

Dillan Conrad [00:32:34] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Than I expected him to. Do you agree, Dylan?

Dillan Conrad [00:32:37] Oh, I, I thought, I thought his, some of his points even were like quite well thought out and intentioned.

Liz Gunnell [00:32:42] You saw that he was very well spoken.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] Yeah, yeah, Jill. Yeah, so I thought he came off well. I was sad for Utah bread and butter orthodox Mormons because there really wasn't a like relief society president level woman or like an elders quorum president type guy. There's like Cardin and Kwaku. Kwaku's a convert, person of color, grew up in Houston, actor turned podcaster, but he's not representative, really, of the grassroots. Grassroots Mormonism at all. Cardin's Certainly not.

Dillan Conrad [00:33:19] I'm so glad they had Bella.

Liz Gunnell [00:33:21] Bella was also a convert recently, though.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] Bella's amazing, but she's been in the church, like, five minutes.

Dillan Conrad [00:33:26] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Okay. Five years. But I mean, yeah. And then this dude. And where were the Utah bread and butter Mormons? Not for me, but just for Mormons wanting to feel represented.

Jillian Orr [00:33:37] Yes, I agree.

Dillan Conrad [00:33:38] I would have loved to know their casting process and just to see how many people they looked for list, because,

John Dehlin [00:33:44] yeah, I think Mormons are going to feel like they weren't well represented by this group.

Jillian Orr [00:33:49] I agree.

Guest [00:33:50] For sure.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] Yeah. And not. Not to. Not to disparage them. I think everyone did their best and. And they all said some thoughtful things. I just. I felt bad. I. I guess if I had feedback for Jubilee, it's like, hire a cultural expert. If you're going to delve into a group, maybe get a cultural expert to advise you on who you pick so that it's representative, if possible. Maybe they did that, but wouldn't that make sense?

Jillian Orr [00:34:17] Yeah. Yes, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] That's hard. All right, let's keep rolling.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:34:22] The church, you have this mindset that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over and you should just not think about it, and that's not right. I honestly, I think that is cultish, but that is not what the church has taught over time.

Video Clip 3 [00:34:37] I think, though, that you are told, seek your own answer, pray. But if it differs from what the prophet is saying, then you might be being deceived by Satan or you got the wrong answer. It should ultimately align with what the prophet is saying. And that's why they say, you know, read the Book of Mormon, pray, see if it's true for yourself. And if you don't get an answer, pray harder, go talk to someone, have more experiences, try again until you get the right answer that it's true. So I think it's a little disingenuous to say that you can seek truth on your own. That doesn't align with the prophet, because that doesn't generally just seem to be how it goes.

Video Clip 3 [00:35:20] Yeah, but that.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] That was great.

Dillan Conrad [00:35:21] It was important for him to hear that word again.

John Dehlin [00:35:23] Liz. Liz threw that disingenuous back.

Liz Gunnell [00:35:27] I did. I had to say. I was like, who's being disingenuous now?

John Dehlin [00:35:33] Well, like, we didn't talk about it. Why are we all annoyed by Quake? Who's saying, if everything's a cult, nothing's a cult. Why was that annoying to you?

Liz Gunnell [00:35:40] Yeah, because they kind of cut that short a little bit. He, I think, didn't even him or Cardan mention, like, interests. Like, oh, like Dungeons and Dragons is a cult or Star wars is a cult. Star Wars. And it was just such a joke to compare a worldwide religion that controls the underwear you wear, the thoughts you think, and then to say, oh, if you like Leia, you're an occult.

Jillian Orr [00:36:05] It was just.

Liz Gunnell [00:36:05] It was such a joke to me.

Jillian Orr [00:36:06] It just. It was not comparable. It was not a comparable example at all. And so, yeah, he did talk about, like, being in a choir or liking Star wars. And I'm like, those don't tell you that if you aren't doing certain things, you're gonna go to heaven or hell.

Dillan Conrad [00:36:18] Yeah, whatever. They can to distance themselves as far away from the word cult as far as the religion that they chose to be a part of. That's what they're gonna go for.

Jillian Orr [00:36:25] Yeah. And those. Those things just do not align. And so that's why it was frustrating because it was such a downplay of, like, no, we're just like. We're just like a group. Like, if you like Star wars, like, you're a Mormon. I'm like, no, this is life and death and eternal damnation on the line. There's a difference.

John Dehlin [00:36:40] Yeah, huge. But, Liz, that point that you can only have one correct answer was a great one. So great job. Really super nice. All right, let's go to. Let's keep it going.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [00:36:54] Completely goes in the face of. I was a missionary for two years, and the number one message we do when we present the Book of Mormon and Mormonism at large to somebody is the infamous Moroni's Promise. We say, go home, pray about it. You need to develop a relationship with God that is so unique and strong that you can recognize when he is talking to you whether or not this is the path you are supposed to take. The idea that Mormonism is a cult is. That's a pejorative trope that has been an anti Mormon slur against the church for a long time. And I always ask by what rubric?

Video Clip 4 [00:37:27] You mentioned the bite model before, and I've seen that you've interviewed Stephen Hassan on your show, and he's given a rubric. Well, that same author has called anybody that voted for Donald Trump a cult. He wrote an entire book about the cult of Trump.

Video Clip 4 [00:37:42] And if you apply any of these bite model methodologies or any of these cult Definitions. My show choir in high school is a cult. Apple is a cult. Wait until the next Star wars movie comes out. It's a cult. That word is used in the same way, with the same inefficacy and the inability to back it up unless you use people that, unfortunately, in your case, were not actually being truly Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Steven Haspen would agree that Apple can have some of the traits of the cult or the military or an educational institution or a corporation, but he also has a harm continuum, a continuum of harm. And if you add up all the deaths of the People's Temple, Jim Jones of, you know, any of the cults you mentioned, it won't add up to the number of LGBT youth in the Mormon Church that have killed. Killed themselves. And so we can talk about just severity of, you know, children are cut off, some children are homeless because their parents kick them out. Now, I'll admit the Mormon Church does a lot of good for a lot of people, but if you just add up the amount of harm, I think that's. That's when it goes from just a silly trope to a very serious conversation.

Dillan Conrad [00:38:56] I.

Liz Gunnell [00:38:58] That was such a great point. And that felt like the, like. The definition between liking Star wars and being in a cult is the damage that it does. You can like Star wars all you want, you can watch it all day. You'll be fine. If you're in a cult, there will be damage, and that's just the biggest difference. So that was a really well said point.

Dillan Conrad [00:39:18] It was very important to call them out on the flippancy of their argument. I thought you did a great job with bringing that up because they were so easily able to bring things up like that. So you were just like, oh, no, let's make it. It a little bit harder for you to say that.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] Yeah, because what got cut was Cardin basically saying, I live in la and I live near the church where Jim Jones did the People's Temple, and I live near. Who is the guy? Marshall Applewhite and the Heaven's Gate where the people all die by suicide in the house. And his basic point was, unless there's a mass suicide, then don't call it a cult.

Dillan Conrad [00:39:56] And you had boom.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Yeah. And I'm just like, okay, count up all those deaths and compare it to the. You know, what's worse? You know, there's this. There's this line in a song. Crack will kill you quickly. That's why it got. That's why it's got to go. They'll get more of your Money. If they kill you nice and slow. Like, what's worse? A chronic cult that results in thousands of deaths over decades or one where everything blows up for 100 people in a. You know, in a year, In a short span. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, any other thoughts about that? No.

Jillian Orr [00:40:30] You always have the mic drop.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] No, no, no.

Jillian Orr [00:40:32] I love it.

LGBTQ Inclusion and Church Belonging

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Okay, well, here's Kwaku, I think, doing a little bit more kind of distancing, but let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [00:40:39] I can't vouch and say that an organization as large as the LDS Church doesn't have any damage. Obviously, people can do damage, but at the same token, if we hold every organization to a standard, that implies they can't have any sort of cultural stains that the entire country has struggled with. Well, good luck. And as someone who believes in Jesus Christ, my hope and my goal is we can get rid of it. We can get rid of that out of our church eventually. But that is not a unique Mormon problem. That is a problem that was given to us by the generations that came before.

Video Clip 5 [00:41:16] The generations that said, separate water fowls. The generations that said, oh, you're gay. You should be going to camp. Whether it's a Baptist, Mormons, whatever. That stuff is evil, but does that evil make us uniquely evil? Or is that a Western American problem that has permeated these organizations? The Mormon community welcomes the LGBTQ community.

Video Clip 5 [00:41:44] So as a gay member of the church, I truly believe that I feel welcome. I feel at home in the church. I realize some people have an issue with. Obviously, we have the doctrine that sexual expression should only be between a married man and woman. But that same standard applies to everyone. And the scriptures are clear that male and female, black and white, bond and free, all are welcome to come unto Christ. And that's the person.

Video Clip 5 [00:42:13] The church agrees that no matter, like, what you are, who you are, and who you love, they're not gonna shun you because of that. You might not get the same privileges necessarily, but that doesn't in the church.

Video Clip 5 [00:42:29] Wait, what do you mean, privileges like.

Video Clip 5 [00:42:32] Such as? Like going to the temple. That kind of a privilege.

Guest 2 [00:42:36] So, yeah, Diego Bella also is the same for straight people. If you're not living the law of chastity and you're straight, you could have your temple recommended as well.

Guest [00:42:46] It's very personal. But the church doesn't. The church doesn't. Specifically, when you're invited to church, they don't come up to you and ask

Liz Gunnell [00:42:53] you, are you straight?

Guest [00:42:54] They're very welcome. Are you straight? Are you lesbian? Are you gay. They ask you about yourself.

Guest 2 [00:42:59] You don't have to fill out a form.

Jillian Orr [00:43:01] No.

Guest 2 [00:43:01] Oh, see, when I walked in, I had to fill out a form.

Dillan Conrad [00:43:04] Can the disagreement please step forward, please.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] All right, any reactions there?

Liz Gunnell [00:43:08] She's so funny, that car.

Jillian Orr [00:43:11] So funny. I love Bella.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] I don't even remember what do you.

Jillian Orr [00:43:15] I just love Bella so much because she says how it is. She doesn't do these mental gymnastics. She doesn't like. She's like, yeah, I think we welcome them, but they don't get the same privileges. And you can see that everyone's like, don't say that. Don't say that. Because she's like, they can't. They can't go to the temple. They can't. Like, she's so straightforward about it. And that's what I loved about. Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [00:43:33] And that she.

Jillian Orr [00:43:34] She's honest. And she also, like, just. She tells you how she feels about it, too, and she's like, no, this just is how it is, and doesn't give reasons or, like, excuses. She's just straightforward. I love her for that.

Dillan Conrad [00:43:48] No notes. Honestly.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] Yeah. Okay. I think it was cool that Kwaku stayed back. So only three of the four Mormons came forward.

Liz Gunnell [00:43:58] The only Mormon that stayed behind. So good for him.

Guest [00:44:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] Yeah, that's. And that happens a few times. So those of you who are just listening, you wouldn't be able to see that. But anyway. All right. Should we keep rolling? Yeah, I guess they're gonna have everyone else come forward. Now.

Liz Gunnell [00:44:21] The concept that straight people and gay people have it equally hard to enter the temple is a complete joke, because straight people. Yes. Also have to deal with their trials and their faith and live the law of chastity. Do X, Y, and Z. And yet they're not having to go against their instincts or their nature. It's all lined up for them. Like, if we were to flip it and say that being gay is the norm in the church. Let's just pretend for a second. And you were the straight one, and you wanted to go to the. And in order to go to the temple, you would have to swear to never sleep with women again, and you would only be able to sleep with men. That would feel very wrong to you.

Guest 2 [00:44:59] No, I completely understand. We live in a hypersexualized society, and I think that is very, very difficult for gay, lesbian, transgender members of the church and so on and so forth. And just as Tember said, the Lord, in his infinite mercy, does not spare any of us from trials. But this idea that I don't want to say that their trial is unique because it is unique. But I look at it a little bit differently. I have leukemia.

Dillan Conrad [00:45:25] Here it comes.

Guest 2 [00:45:25] My illness will kill me 20 years earlier than Timber. You don't think. You don't think on my deathbed. Forgive me. You don't think that I wouldn't trade a little bit of timber's gayness for 20 years extra on this earth? So if Timber has a loss of faith because being gay in a hypersexualized world with a law of chastity from the Bible that he doesn't understand, I get that because we live in a cruel, hyper sexualized world.

Jillian Orr [00:46:08] World.

Guest 2 [00:46:10] But I stare down the barrel of a chemotherapy pill every day that keeps me alive. I will die probably the same time my father does. It's a trial, and it sucks. But welcome to the club. That's why.

Jillian Orr [00:46:23] Oh, I have to stop you right there to see.

Being Gay Framed as a Trial

John Dehlin [00:46:25] Okay, do we want to just let you respond or do we want to. Do y' all want to respond now or do you want to let your. Because your respond was amazing. Your response was amazing, Jill.

Dillan Conrad [00:46:33] Well, yeah, Jill's was incredible. But I actually don't even remember Cardin speaking specifically about. Oh, my gosh, what's his name again?

Guest 1 [00:46:44] Timber.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] Timber.

Dillan Conrad [00:46:45] I'm gonna get it, I promise. Speaking as an illness. I don't remember that part that he actually called it Timber's illness. And that makes me honestly ill. That's the biggest part that stuck out. I feel gross. Like it. Go for it.

Jillian Orr [00:47:01] I think. I mean, I'm not gonna say what I say next, but watching this, I actually forgot some of the things that he said in that. That the part that stuck out to me was when he said, some of your gayness.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] Yeah, timbers. You said Timber's gayness.

Jillian Orr [00:47:17] To have some of your gayness.

Dillan Conrad [00:47:19] He'd like to have that instead.

Jillian Orr [00:47:23] That just to feel. I felt so bad for Timber. Like, that hurt my heart for him, that he would. That he would spotlight him like that. And to say that I could have some of your gayness instead of my cancer just destroyed me because it's. That's not how it is.

Dillan Conrad [00:47:40] Like, not at all.

Jillian Orr [00:47:41] That is who he is, and that is part of him, and it's part of the beautiful parts of Timber and that.

Dillan Conrad [00:47:46] And there's no need to take a pill or anything to get rid of that. No medications necessary.

Liz Gunnell [00:47:51] They're not remotely synonymous whatsoever. I really had no idea. And you were saying. I mean, I feel bad for him. Like, to have leukemia is a terrible thing, and I'm sure that he struggles with that deeply. But how was it at all related to being gay?

Jillian Orr [00:48:07] It just broke my heart that he was like, this is your trial, timber. And I. I was like, that's. Oh, Anyways, you're gonna hear my response.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] And I. You know, I also want to hold space for what it's like to be a cancer, a person with cancer. He also shared that I think one of his daughters also had cancer. So, like, I want to be able to, on the one hand, say, yes, Cardan, that's serious, and we're so sorry, and we grieve that and we hold that with you, and we share with you love and respect and our condolences. And it's like, can't you see that? Like, doing a swan song. Not only is it weird to be comparing gayness to cancer, it's so insulting, but you're. You're kind of commandeering the mic.

Dillan Conrad [00:49:00] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] When the topic is about the LGBTQ community and, like, turning it to be all about you. And that felt cringy. Very cringy.

Jillian Orr [00:49:09] It felt manipulative.

Dillan Conrad [00:49:10] Yeah, I. I like, you know, we. We all definitely feel for him and his experience, but I think there was just. For me, it seemed like he was waiting for the opportunity. When am I going to talk about that? On this filming? And I feel like he chose. It was very cringy. It was the wrong time. Like, read the room, dude.

Liz Gunnell [00:49:32] Yeah, 100%. And, I mean, a similar thought. Maybe I'm kind of repeating what we've already said, but leukemia, to have cancer isn't a sin. You know, like, you're born and you're sick, and you can't do anything about that. And so to say that having leukemia is the same as this atrocious, in his mind, sin.

Jillian Orr [00:49:53] Well, trial.

Liz Gunnell [00:49:54] A trial.

Jillian Orr [00:49:55] It was just.

Liz Gunnell [00:49:57] And it did feel like his card that he was playing a little bit, like, maybe this is my moment to. Which sounds terrible to say, which is why it was kind of manipulative, because it is such a terrible thing. Leukemia is no joke.

Dillan Conrad [00:50:09] There would have been a better place to insert that experience, and it would have been met with a lot more kindness. And it just felt. So I was waiting for Jill to just be like, you know what? Like, we're not playing that card.

Liz Gunnell [00:50:23] Well.

Jillian Orr [00:50:24] And maybe he does see that it's the same type of trial, and that's where I'm gonna hold space for him, is maybe that is his truth. Maybe his truth is that that is a trial, and they're seen the same. But to me, that is still inappropriate.

Dillan Conrad [00:50:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:36] And you. You pull out a can of whoop ass immediately. And so let's see.

Jillian Orr [00:50:41] What did I say?

John Dehlin [00:50:42] Play. Let's play. Jill's response.

Jillian Orr [00:50:45] Can we rewind it a little bit? Go back a bit?

John Dehlin [00:50:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll rewind it.

Jillian Orr [00:50:49] Lead into it.

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [00:50:49] Say that being gay sucks, but welcome to the club. That's what father does it. It's a trial and it sucks, but welcome to the club.

Video Clip 6 [00:50:57] That's why I have to stop you right there. To say that being gay is a trial is disgusting. That is offensive.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:05] You don't.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:06] Dying early.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:07] It's.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:08] No, no, no, no, no.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:09] Let her finish.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:10] I am saying that the way that the church sees people being born gay is like being born with cancer. I think.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:16] Yeah. I think she was more upset that you referred. You basically codified it as an illness.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:20] Is that sensing if you have a

Video Clip 6 [00:51:21] lawsuit because of it?

Video Clip 6 [00:51:23] Being gay is not a trial. Being gay in the church is a trial because of how they treat you and how they see it. How they see gay people is like being born with cancer. They're like, we're so sorry you were born this way. You can be that way, but don't do anything about it. If I being. I went to byu, I took tests where they said if they had asked questions like, how do we treat members of the LGBTQ community? And the answer was to love them unconditionally, but understand that they will never be truly as happy as those who follow the Mormon religion.

Video Clip 6 [00:51:55] And so that is so painful to read and see, because the trial isn't being gay. Actually, being gay is incredible. Being attracted to someone of the same sex is beautiful. And I've never been happier. The trial comes when the church tells you that that is wrong, and hopefully when you die, that cancer of being gay will be gone.

Video Clip 6 [00:52:16] That's the trial. See, I disagree. I think we all have equal opportunity for happiness. I think happiness looks different for other people. And I can say that I had a semblance of happiness when I was with my boyfriends and.

Video Clip 6 [00:52:36] But are you saying she's not really happy? Are you saying her happiness is fake?

Video Clip 6 [00:52:39] I'm not. I'm not. I believe that. I believe you are truly happy. I am.

Video Clip 6 [00:52:44] Do you think she'll need to change fundamentally who she is as a person when we're talking about the next life in order to get that happiness that you're looking, that you're bringing to the podium?

Video Clip 6 [00:52:56] I believe the Christian doctrine that sexual expression should only be between a man and a woman. But again, that's not an LDS doctrine.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:04] So will Mormon Heavenly Father keep her out of the celestial kingdom if she continues to have gay relationships?

Video Clip 6 [00:53:11] He's not.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:12] Wait, I asked him.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:13] I am saying that that's a yes or no.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:16] That's a yes or no.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:17] Do I believe that Heavenly Father would keep her out. Out of the Celestial King?

Video Clip 6 [00:53:20] Cardin didn't want to.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:21] She continues to have lesbian relationships through her entire life and doesn't repent for them.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:26] Yes, I believe that. Yes.

Video Clip 6 [00:53:29] But he'll keep her out of heaven.

Guest 1 [00:53:33] No.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] Celestial kingdom.

Guest 1 [00:53:34] Yes. We all have a standard that we need.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] She won't be able to live with her family forever, which is the Mormon promise.

Guest 2 [00:53:40] No, but that's. That's because of the doctrine of eternal Father.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Dillan Conrad [00:53:44] Keep going.

Guest 1 [00:53:45] I mean, yes, I believe Jesus is clear in the scriptures that there is a certain way to be able to return to the Father, and we have to be willing to sacrifice everything he says. He says that we need to lay down our lives, deny ourselves, to follow him in order to go to heaven. And whether you believe it's a celestial kingdom or heaven or whatever it is, there is a standard that we need

Liz Gunnell [00:54:15] to live by that standard.

Guest [00:54:16] It also applies to several.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] All right, y' all want to comment to that?

Liz Gunnell [00:54:19] Chills? Jillian, I got.

Dillan Conrad [00:54:21] It's a viral moment.

Liz Gunnell [00:54:22] Chills. And also the fact that both Jillian and John. I was so inspired. Both of you. No, no, no. I'm talking. Do not talk over me. It was like. I got chills in the moment. And re. Watching it just now that you guys were both so strong. You got your answers. It was just so powerful. I loved it.

Dillan Conrad [00:54:41] You could tell that Cardan did not want Tember to answer that question. You could tell that, like, he was like, hold on, hold on. You gotta. Because that question was presented to him, and he was like, oh, he's gonna. He's gonna say yes eventually. But you had to ask that question because it was right there, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [00:55:00] There's so many. It's interesting to watch this again. Cause so many things that either I didn't realize had been said, or I was just so, like, worked up and you were trying to be respectful. But something that stuck out to me that really, like, it actually makes me want to cry is when Timber says we have to deny ourselves.

Jillian Orr [00:55:17] And that hurt my heart for him, because we don't. We don't have to deny ourselves or who we are to get to heaven. In fact, we're supposed to embrace and love ourselves. And that part made me sad when he said that.

Jillian Orr [00:55:32] But, yeah, just reliving and watching that again was so fascinating, because something that I noticed that Cardin had said before is how much he's like, we're in a hypersexual. It's so sexualized. It's so sexualized. And we're like. We're not talking about sexual things. We're talking about the way that we identify and the people that we are attracted, like, the people that we want to love and who we are. We're literally talking about who we are as people. And I was like, this is not a hypersexualized topic that we're talking about. And so I'm not sure why that kept coming up, but. But I am so grateful, John, that you kept pointing out, because I think a lot of members will say, yes, gay people get to go to heaven.

Jillian Orr [00:56:06] But the thing that is always missed is that the doctrine is. Is that if you are married to a member of the same sex, is that you will not be going to the highest level. You will not be allowed to be with your family, you're not allowed to be with your spouse if you are in a homosexual relationship. And a lot of people are like, yes, gay people can go to heaven, but there's tears and there's levels, and you don't get the same privileges, just like Bella said.

Liz Gunnell [00:56:27] Yeah, but also, listen, Mormon heaven, the three tiers. The lowest level includes, like, rapists. Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] And Hitler.

Liz Gunnell [00:56:35] And Hitler. The only outer darkness purgatory is. Hello, the ex Mormon cast right here. Like, our apostates. Like, gay people.

Dillan Conrad [00:56:45] I can't wait to party.

Liz Gunnell [00:56:46] We're gonna be with serial killers. We're gonna be in purgatory.

Jillian Orr [00:56:49] It's.

Liz Gunnell [00:56:49] This makes me so angry.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] Yeah. Yeah. That was a powerful moment. And I was worried I was being a little bit too aggressive by making him answer the question.

Liz Gunnell [00:56:59] It was perfect.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Yes and no.

Dillan Conrad [00:57:00] He needed that. He needed that. And he needs that today as well. He really does.

Jillian Orr [00:57:04] I don't think it was aggressive, because I think what you were doing is that you were making it like, there's this theory and topic that Mormons have in their mind, and you were making him apply it to an actual person. Like, you really think she can't hurt right there? Like, for her, you're gonna say that right now? And I really appreciated that because I. I think you made it human. I think you made it real that he had to recognize that he doesn't. Like, does he really believe that about someone Sitting next to him.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] Yeah. And most Mormons, I don't think they do this intentionally, but they speak very differently to the world than they do to each other. If you go to a Mormon and say do you believe that all other churches are not true and that you're part of the only true church, if they're in front of non members, what are they going to say? God loves everyone. God sees all churches.

Jillian Orr [00:57:52] He wants all of his children back together.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] But, but when we're all together bearing testimony, what do we say?

Dillan Conrad [00:57:58] This is. I know that this is the only true church.

John Dehlin [00:58:01] Yeah. And so they do this nuance of in speak versus outspeak and heaven is another thing. They can always claim. No, Mormon's the most expansive of all churches because we let everyone in and. But again, who wants to go to heaven? If you're literally separated from the people you love most for eternity. For eternity, which is literally Mormon doctrine, you'll never be with your kids, you'll never be with your parents, you'll never be with your partner, you'll somehow be like a neutered genderless. And this may come up lone person for eternity.

Jillian Orr [00:58:37] Yes.

Dillan Conrad [00:58:37] This may come up later in the conversation. I remember when I was able to say something about how it is pretty common for people that talk about the celestial kingdom to be like, oh well we'll be able to come and visit you sometime and hang out but obviously you're not going to be able to make it to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. That's just one of those things where I guess people just seem like they mean well, but it's so hurtful.

Jillian Orr [00:59:03] Yeah. And the church.

Dillan Conrad [00:59:04] Disgusting.

Jillian Orr [00:59:05] The church that claims be to that they're the most family centered is actually the one that takes the family apart the most.

Liz Gunnell [00:59:11] I think about that every day.

Dillan Conrad [00:59:13] They're the ones that think God face palms all the time.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] What do you mean? What do you mean, Liz?

Liz Gunnell [00:59:17] The fact that. So like you just said, the Mormon church family is everything. So they claim. And yet only if your family is within the confines of the church because that was taught like my parents told me. Yeah, family means everything. But the church is number one and family technically comes second. And then only if everyone is following all the rules does everyone get to live together forever. But if someone falls away, I mean we don't really. Mormons don't really shun as much as maybe some other cult like religions do. But there is definitely a shunning esque that happens where if you leave and you don't believe the same way they do, or if you're gay, your family will judge you.

Liz Gunnell [01:00:07] They will talk to you differently. They will. It's not inclusive. Like my family. I left nine years ago and it is an incredibly superficial relationship that I have with my family. And yet we're supposed to, you know, have they. Sorry. I feel like I'm kind of rambling. I'm.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] No, you're not. This is important.

Liz Gunnell [01:00:28] I, I get frustrated because they say families can be together forever and it almost cheapens this life that we have here on Earth because I just get, you know, if you're righteous, then I'll have you for eternity. So I live in la. My whole family lives in Arizona. I talk to my family like I talk to my dad, maybe once every three or four months. I talk to my mom twice a year. Like, I, I'm not close, we're all good terms. I went home for Christmas, we're fine. But it's so superficial and it's like you don't want me in this life because I live differently than you and, and yet you want me for eternity. I don't know if I'm making sense. It's just.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] It cheapens it in the world.

Liz Gunnell [01:01:13] It cheapens this life 100%.

Jillian Orr [01:01:15] It hurts.

Liz Gunnell [01:01:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] And I think, and I think why it's so important is it's the secret sauce. It's what, it's part of what drives the cult, the most cultist aspects of Mormonism, but also the vitality and the strength.

Guest [01:01:26] It's.

John Dehlin [01:01:26] Of what? Mormonism. There's this idea of no empty chairs. A parent's taught, a parent is taught. Their number one goal is to get their kids on missions, temple, married and to be devout tithe paying members. Otherwise the parents and the grandparents will be without their kids and grandkids in the afterlife. And so it's, it's secret. It's. It's part of the secret formula to why the Mormon church is a $250 billion organization. It's using this threat of not being with your family in the hereafter as. It's part of the bite model. It's the e. It's the emotional manipulation.

Jillian Orr [01:02:06] It's the leverage.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] Yeah. To make people pay. Pray and obey, right?

Guest [01:02:10] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:02:11] It's the leverage is that it's like you got to do what we say or if not, you're going to lose your family. But if you do what we say, you're locked in for life and you're good. And everyone wants to be with their family. Everyone wants to. Wants relationships and to have that closeness. And so it is, it feels manipulative. It feels like this leverage of like, but if not, you're going to be damned in hell forever. And so it's how they, they control, they control the behavior.

Dillan Conrad [01:02:33] That's why I chose to step away from religion altogether is I just don't believe that God operates that way.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [01:02:40] Full stop.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] Yeah, yeah. And I just, I'll say, when I was a missionary, we would play Families are Eternal, like video. We would, hey, you know, we'd knock on the door and say, hey, we're members of the church Jesus Christ Saints. We have a message to you about families. Wouldn't you want to live with your family forever? We're creating that scarcity, but it's like our selling point. And that's what. And then they think about it and they think, well, yeah, I want to be with my family forever. And then you say, well, you're not gonna be unless you get baptized and go to the temple. And, and it's really problematic. Whereas Christians are just like, of course everyone's going to be together forever. Right. There's no scarcity.

Liz Gunnell [01:03:21] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] So it's manufactured scarcity to emit emotion to then compel obedience.

Dillan Conrad [01:03:30] I mean, look how much emotion was just brought up in this short clip. It's glaringly apparent that that's what's used.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] Yeah. So we, we nailed it, guys. We, we, we covered it, we talked about it. I'm glad we did.

Jillian Orr [01:03:42] Heavy stuff.

John Dehlin [01:03:43] Yeah. All right, well, let's keep going.

Guest [01:03:48] Several other religions. I just don't want that to get confused. That, oh, it's specifically our Mormon religion.

Guest 1 [01:03:53] That's what I'm saying.

Guest [01:03:54] Yeah, exactly. It's several other religions. It's not just because the panel is

Dillan Conrad [01:03:57] about the LDS Church, though. We definitely can talk about the issues with the LDS Church.

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:04:02] There's two ways to be accepted in the Mormon Church. If you're gay, you either can be celibate or you can enter into a mixed orientation marriage. And I can tell you that there's like a 70% divorce rate for mixed orientation marriages. Let me just finish. Let me just. It is true. So I have a PhD in Clinical Counseling Psychology. I interviewed 1,612 LGBT Mormons and ex Mormons. And this is based on my published research data. And let me just finish. So you have one choice, which is to be in a mixed orientation marriage where 70% are going to fail and you're going to be likely miserable, or you can be celibate and believe it or not, Being celibate has worse depression, anxiety, and mental health outcomes as someone who's in a mixed orientation marriage. And that's why so many LGBTQ Mormons choose death.

Video Clip 7 [01:04:48] And if you want personal, I'll give you personal. I am married to a man who used to be married to a woman. An amazing, amazing woman who God definitely had me find. Because of the situation that I had, I was able to have two biological children with this woman. And there is no way I believe in a God that is going to take away my husband and my two biological children that he absolutely gave me. I have them, I love them, and I will have them forever.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:17] I think statistics are very important, but I'm very curious.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:20] Would you say you're happy?

Video Clip 7 [01:05:21] Happier now than before?

Video Clip 7 [01:05:23] Yes, because my joy, the joy that I feel in Christ is so much deeper than the emotional, physical connection that I had with my boyfriends.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:36] It doesn't compare.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:36] I feel like there's joy in Christ right now.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:38] Can I just interject?

Video Clip 7 [01:05:40] Let's just.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:40] And then we can. So that might be the only boomer who didn't step forward.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:44] Nice.

Video Clip 7 [01:05:44] You know, I think two things can be true at once. So obviously, members of the church, by and large, are good people who don't hate anyone. But at the same time, we gotta be realistic. Gay people aren't going anywhere and Mormons aren't going anywhere. So what do you do? And the future of LGBT relations and the church. I'm excited to see what happens, because clearly something's gonna have to happen. There's something's gonna have to change because these are two groups that are not leaving. Masturbation is sinful.

Kwaku's Mixed-Orientation Marriage Discussion

John Dehlin [01:06:21] All right, really quickly, any final reactions to Kwaku?

Liz Gunnell [01:06:27] I thought it was an interesting last point that he made, considering the episode that you guys just had recently about the two. The gay couple in the Mormon Church that has callings. So it's clear that the Mormon Church is having some changes towards gay people. So it's. And, you know, that's clearly having a lot of people going back and forth about, you know, the pros and cons of that. But it was interesting to hear Kwaku just a month ago, because we filmed a month ago, say the church is going to have to have some changes. And now we're kind of seeing that. So I thought that was interesting.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Yeah, absolutely. And obviously this mixed orientation marriage thing is really sensitive to you here. He's saying he's happier than ever, happier than whenever he had his boyfriends.

Dillan Conrad [01:07:14] I just felt like speaking about timber again. If Anyone was going to reach out. This is just me thinking out loud if anyone was gonna reach out to Jubilee Media. And after thinking about spending time on that set and be like, you know, I really don't think that I want this released because I just, for some reason I just felt like this, this guy has a lot of things that he's still. We all have things that we need to still figure out about life. But I don't know, it was just hard for me to be able to see him in that state of vulnerability where he had made certain choices and even the choices that he had made that affects his wife and his kids and what experience they will have.

Dillan Conrad [01:07:56] I mean, I was able to have a really wonderful experience with my ex wife and the conversations that we had were on and we were able to figure things out. But I just see Tember still having a lot of pain in the future. And I hope that he is able to get through that with a lot of people giving him grace. And it's just, I'm glad that it's not a place that I'm in, in my life right now where I was able to actually rewrite the chapters of my life in the way that I wanted to.

Jillian Orr [01:08:31] I thought it was interesting when he asked him if he was happy, he said, I'm happy with. I'm happiest now with Christ than I was with my boyfriends. I thought that was really interesting. And I just, I mean, I don't want to say what that means or what that entails or why he chose those words, but that was just something really interesting to me to say. I'm happiest. I'm happier now with Christ than I am was with my boyfriends versus, like

John Dehlin [01:09:00] my wife versus my wife, my relationship.

Jillian Orr [01:09:03] I'm happier with a woman than I was with a man.

Dillan Conrad [01:09:05] It's because he's gay. Well, I mean, that's not meant to even be a joke. Like, this is someone who has chosen to again give up a part of himself to follow Jesus Christ. When I make it pretty clear in that segment that I'm also happy in Christ and my husband and I believe in Jesus Christ and we have our own ways of believing, believing and, and that kind of stuff. But I just feel. I feel sad for Timber.

John Dehlin [01:09:34] And I'll just say, having been following this stuff for a few decades, the Mormon Church is littered with official spokesmen and women that tell the church population, I'm gay, but I'm celibate and I'm happy I'm gay, but I'm married to a woman and I'm happy. I'm a lesbian and I'm married to a man and I'm happy. And then you just fast forward five or ten years and either you find out they were lying the whole time and had secret relationships or they were suicidal or they eventually just can't sustain it and they leave. And what the church literally has never done is gone back to the membership and said, hey, everyone, sorry we, we shilled these, we put these people up as our spokespeople.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Sorry we did that to convince you to stay on the, the straight and narrow. It's all blown up for them. But, you know, our bad, we won't do that anymore. What they do is they just recycle new influencers and new spokespeople.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] You know, whether it's Dave Matheson time, Mansfield, not to criticize them for their choices, but just to say this is not new and we know how most of these stories end.

Dillan Conrad [01:10:45] Yeah. That's why I get a little bit nervous when, with the situation that Tember has right now is if the LDS church starts being a little bit more open and allowing these types of things to happen with, you know, the part of Timber that he still obviously holds onto, the collateral damage is gonna be his current wife and kids. If he decides to go back to that to feel more comfortable in the LDS Church with a boyfriend or with a husband, I think he'll probably choose that because like you said, like he said, his happiness is in Christ.

Jillian Orr [01:11:15] I wonder what would happen if the church was saying that you could be married to a man. Well, I mean, it would be okay. And that's where your decisions would sit. So. I don't know.

Dillan Conrad [01:11:24] It all depends on their numbers and how much tithing they.

John Dehlin [01:11:29] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [01:11:32] All right, Well, I hope it's not that disingenuous though. But yeah, my goodness.

John Dehlin [01:11:36] And I do know some Mormons who say they're in mixed orientation marriages and they're happy and love it. And I guess in a world of bell curves, there could, that could be a possibility. So we need to hold space for that being a reality for some. My concern is the, you know, I always say mixed orientation marriages and Mormonism should have a big red label saying warning. You know, chances are this is going to blow up catastrophically. And as long as it's always labeled that way as informed consent, a warning, then yeah, let people make their own decisions.

Dillan Conrad [01:12:10] Yeah. My ex wife and I are an exception, not the rule. We decided early on that we were not going to make divorce and this kind of thing, a hateful, dirty word. And our kids were going to not suffer because of it. I'm very thankful for that. But I know that that's not the majority of experiences for people.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] Yeah. All right, well, the next prompt that they listed was masturbation is sinful. And they put that hidden behind a Patreon paywall. So y' all will have to check that out on their Patreon. But they go right to the next. The next prompt. So let's go to it.

Are Men and Women Equal in the Church?

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [01:12:50] Agreeers, please step forward. Women and men are equal in the church. Agreeers, please step forward.

Video Clip 8 [01:13:05] This one was fascinating.

Video Clip 8 [01:13:06] Yeah.

Video Clip 8 [01:13:08] Two men stepping forward.

Video Clip 8 [01:13:09] So. Yeah. So for those listening, this is one

Video Clip 8 [01:13:12] of the most glorious doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is there's no other church or religion on the earth that teaches that men and women eventually can become gods, co creators and co equal partners. I mean, we do believe currently that we are co equal partners already, just different responsibilities. But we both have the same ability to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and that's the ultimate goal.

Video Clip 8 [01:13:45] I wholeheartedly believe that men and women in the church are equal. But I think it's important to define what equal is because I'm immediately aware of what the secular anti Mormon arguments are. At the same time, I look at our faith and we're a faith that has codified this idea, as the Apostle Paul said, that we will be co participants in his glory. And we have a relief Society, which is the largest women's organization in the world. We're one of the only faiths that's mainstream or large enough to have national recognition that I know of that has a doctrine of Heavenly Mother that is actually sung about in our official hymn book.

Video Clip 8 [01:14:22] You, you look at women, they don't need to receive the priesthood in order to go to the temple. They we're told our priesthood as men that we hold is useless unless it's applied through long suffering and patience. And we're constantly told that you are living the Adam and Eve archetype and unless you make a decision mutually with your wife, which is the ultimate definition of equality, it's what we call unrighteous dominion. I'm very aware that some people say, oh, because women can't have the priesthood, that you're a second class citizen. And there's some cultural arguments that people might try and bring in, but in the codified faith, women enjoy sometimes will complain about almost preferential treatment.

John Dehlin [01:15:08] All right, so preferential treatment, Julian, what's

Dillan Conrad [01:15:12] that term that I love so much that you told me about in la.

Jillian Orr [01:15:17] Benevolent sexism. Benevolent sexism. That's a huge one. Sorry, John, what were you just saying?

John Dehlin [01:15:22] Just what's your. What are the women's reactions to? I mean, for those who are just listening, who didn't get to see describe the visual optics of what was so stunning about that segment or what's Are

Liz Gunnell [01:15:33] men and women equal in the church? Two Mormon men stepped forward.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] Two of the eight. Right?

Jillian Orr [01:15:40] Two out of eight people, the female on the Mormon side did not step forward. No one on the ex Mormon side. And then Quake stayed back. So two of the Mormons and then all of the ex Mormons stayed back about it being equal.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] And the two who stepped forward are Cardan and Timber. And they are. What's their gender?

Jillian Orr [01:15:57] Two white men, two women.

John Dehlin [01:15:59] So the fact that they would even allow. How could they even step forward as two men and say, let's tell all the women in the room so that

Dillan Conrad [01:16:07] they could fill the room with benevolent sexism.

John Dehlin [01:16:11] So super cringe, right? Is the Internet going to blow up over that one?

Liz Gunnell [01:16:15] I hope so.

Jillian Orr [01:16:16] I hope. But just to see them going forward and being like, we'll tell you what women think. Like, oh, I wouldn't even dare.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] Why it's equal for women. You know what I mean?

Liz Gunnell [01:16:25] What was his last comment like? And some women hate the preferential treatment. Like, what was that last comment?

John Dehlin [01:16:30] We're so good to women. Sometimes we men are annoyed that women have it so good in the church.

Jillian Orr [01:16:36] And this is a big platform that he stands on in a lot of podcasting, is that men are not even useful. They're not even the same level as women unless they have the priesthood. And this is, this is what is called benevolent sexism. And I actually did my final project on this at school was this. And I actually did so many surveys on it that my professor was so impressed with the responses back that she actually messed with the results. Is that there is benevolent sexism. Means that they're putting women at a higher position. They're so benevolent, they're so great, they're so righteous, they. They're above men.

Jillian Orr [01:17:07] That the damage of this is that when women mess up or whenever they fail or whenever they sin, they are knocked off of this pedestal. And there's so much damage that can be done because they're not living up to this standard. But when men who are already down here mess up, boys will be boys, men will be men. Like, they just. It's a natural. It's what they are we're just human. And so this benevolent sexism causes so much damage to women because of the perfectionism that they have to live up to.

Liz Gunnell [01:17:35] Amen. I just don't understand the whole argument of women are so good, they don't have to do anything. They don't need the priesthood to go to the temple. They don't need it.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] They don't need to speak.

Jillian Orr [01:17:50] They don't need to speak.

Liz Gunnell [01:17:51] They don't need. They can lead the choir. They can just relax and raise the kids, and they're better than us. It's just such a. A lame argument, I think, when men are talking. Oh, no, it's okay. How dare you, Jillian? You're the only one that can interrupt me right now.

Liz Gunnell [01:18:09] Just that only men are leading the meetings, deciding who gives the prayers, who just in charge of everything. And then women get to do the music. And I mean, it was a big deal that my mom growing up, she's very well read. She was the gospel doctrine teacher at my ward growing up. And I remember her even making a comment to me that that was special, that it's normally a man that teaches gospel doctrine. So I don't know. I come from. Despite.

Liz Gunnell [01:18:38] I don't know what I'm saying. But, like, she was the exception and I was. And she really worked hard for that. And it was still. Was like the biggest calling that she could get was just teaching deeper truths about the Book of Mormon.

Jillian Orr [01:18:54] And something my sister brought up when she had watched this was she was saying, don't they understand that by saying, this is almost a form of, like, Stockholm syndrome? It's a form of, like, oh, we will. Like, you don't have to.

Liz Gunnell [01:19:06] We will.

Jillian Orr [01:19:07] Like, you're so great. But this is why we get the power. Like, this is why we take in charge and that they're saying these things to keep themselves in charge. Like, they get to keep the power because we're so good, but that's why they get to have this.

Dillan Conrad [01:19:21] And I think a little bit later on they might discuss this, but they. You know, when they first started the conversation, it was one of the highest levels in the general authority, whatever is the Relief Society president and someone name them.

John Dehlin [01:19:35] It's coming.

Dillan Conrad [01:19:35] Name that person.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] It's coming.

Jillian Orr [01:19:38] Don't spoil.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Yeah, don't spoil. Really quickly. What do you guys think of that trope that the Relief Society is the largest women's organization in the world? Maven just made the comment. It's the largest women's organization in the world, run by men. Yes, yes. Preach it.

Jillian Orr [01:19:55] Is. I mean, that's. It's such a. It's such an excuse where it looks like one thing, but we actually know the truth behind this is that, yes, it's this women's group, but guess what? They can't make decisions unless they get approval from the bishop. They can't do this unless the men say yes. They can't even have a girls camp without making sure that there's men there to make sure that they're safe. Like, we have women who are EMTs or who are doctors or who are CEOs, but it doesn't matter because they still have to get approval from the bishop.

Guest [01:20:22] Mm.

Liz Gunnell [01:20:22] In fact, what you're just. I completely forgot about this. But growing up, if you were like a Miami president and you picked your counselors. I remember having one on one meetings with the bishop. All right, Liz, you're the Miami president. Who are your counselors. And, like, he has to approve that everything is approved. Even the tiny bit of authority that you get is approved by a man.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] Yeah, that's true. All right, this goes on for a while. Let's go. Let's. Let's keep going. So now the six remaining people.

Women's Roles, Priesthood, and Heavenly Mother

▶ Video Clip 9

Video Clip 9 [01:20:55] Does anyone know who the Relief Society president is? Can you name the woman that is the Relief Society president over the whole church? Crickets.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:08] I know it was Jean B. Bingham. I don't know who it is right now. I'll be honest with you.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:12] I definitely think that men and women are treated very differently.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:15] You guys said I can't name.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:16] Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:17] I can't name the 12 apostles, so.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:19] And yet you could name probably the first three. President Nelson and his counselors.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:24] I could name the prophet. Yes. But at any given time, I confess.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:27] Let's stay on track.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:29] I just have to say that's such BS that he couldn't name Liz. I like, freaking donate to and Henry B. Eyring in the first presidency.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:35] It is. Yeah. No, that's BS because we all know who the majority of the main ones are. That was the biggest mic drop.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:44] It was.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:45] Liz brought the heat.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:46] She killed it.

Video Clip 9 [01:21:47] That was such a risk. And I was so proud because I was like. When you said that, I was like, hot damn. I couldn't even tell you who that is. Because nobody knows because it's not relevant. It's not relevant who the woman is of the like, oh, it's equal. The largest. Just. No, nobody knows who they are, but everyone knows who the president is, and

Video Clip 9 [01:22:01] they were just talking so much game. The Relief Society, they run the Relief Society. Name one.

Video Clip 9 [01:22:06] Name it.

Video Clip 9 [01:22:07] Name the president. You're just full of shit. It's so maddening. You're talking out of your ass.

Video Clip 9 [01:22:17] Oh, so good. All right, let's keep going.

Video Clip 9 [01:22:20] I do not think men and women are treated equally. And it goes beyond the priesthood. It also goes beyond to your duties as a woman. I think a lot of the time women are told. I mean, a lot of women go to BYU or college just to find a spouse. And they're told not to continue their education once they get married and to let the man take over and be the main breadwinner. So I think that there's a lot of. There is a difference between the duties of men and women in the church. Sorry.

Video Clip 9 [01:22:50] I think that's just a general critique of Judeo Christian traditional household standards, I guess, or customs. I do believe women have been marginalized and men have asserted their authority and power over them in unrighteous ways and unrighteous dominion. Right. But I think that has definitely changed. Especially like, not to get into specifics of the Temple, but the temple used to say that women are basically subject to their husbands and have access to God through their husband.

Video Clip 9 [01:23:25] And they would veil their faces as well.

Video Clip 9 [01:23:26] That's not there anymore. And I think that is a positive step that the church is coming to acknowledge that. Hey, if Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are co creators, co gods, she's not subject to Heavenly Father and Judaism.

Video Clip 9 [01:23:42] Sorry. And Judy, really quickly, women can be rabbis. And I don't know if within the

Video Clip 9 [01:23:47] next decade, depending on.

Video Clip 9 [01:23:48] Depending on the staff, I can't see women being bishops.

Video Clip 9 [01:23:51] Personally, when I go to my church, when I'm in my ward, when I come to church, I sit down. Everybody leading the church is a male. And the only female you'll see on the stand, she is playing the organ. And when she's not playing the organ, she comes back down and she'll sit with her family.

Video Clip 9 [01:24:06] Is that why you. I want to know why you chose to stay back. Cause I thought that was very significant.

Video Clip 9 [01:24:11] Because I agree, I don't believe they're equal. Just like what I said, she goes up, she plays the organ, she comes back down, and all you're left with is men. Until other women come up later on to bear their testimony or sing something.

Video Clip 9 [01:24:24] How have you felt your involvement has been as a woman?

Video Clip 9 [01:24:28] My involvement, I was personally, I was involved in the youth. I was like secretary, only secretary of the women's. Obviously, sometimes we get combined with the men, but oftentimes it's kind of very. You kind of stay in your own sex group. So you're always with women, and the men are always with the men. The boys are with the boys, the girls are with the girls. Unless you're like, adolescents, and obviously they're all together. But I, like, feel. I feel that there is definitely. There is definitely segregation within women and men in the church. I do believe that they hold more power. I feel like it's not as inclusive as it should be.

Dillan Conrad [01:25:15] So it seems like both sides can't agree that, you know, the debate is on whether it's unequal or not. But they do have different roles and responsibilities.

Guest 1 [01:25:23] In that instance, I think that I

Jillian Orr [01:25:25] would like to speak on that without impact.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] Whether you left or not.

Jillian Orr [01:25:28] I think it did impact my involvement in the church in general. Because what I love the way that you're explaining is, like, a kid, A kid can sit in church and see who is in charge. A child can even being raised, you know, becoming a teenager, you were only involved with the women. Even being like, all of these levels, all the way up to a level of an adult, of being married, of you can only practice your sexuality once you're married to a man.

Jillian Orr [01:25:53] Only can you have sexual relationships once you're married to a man. Like, it's very clear that we as women are seen very differently. And not only that, but even the concept of a heavenly mother that we talk about, they just told us that we're not allowed to pray even to a heavenly mother. We're not even allowed to. It's not brought up. We don't talk about it. And that just so clearly displays the difference of we only speak to God the Father. We don't speak to God, mother, We don't talk about her. And. And what's funny is it's all of the white men who are telling us why.

Jillian Orr [01:26:22] It's always the white men who are telling us where our level is. It's the white men who are saying, oh, no, you have equal priesthood, but you can't sit on the stand. You can't pass a sacrament. You can't bless people, can't baptize people.

Guest 1 [01:26:31] I'm sorry, but that is a Judeo multiracial biblical teaching that wasn't just instituted by white men. That you may disagree with it. And. And that's fine. Sexist, nonetheless, you may disagree with it. But the fact of the matter is, is that there always is someone who presides, okay? And the scriptures say that the one who presides in the household is the man. But presiding doesn't mean is higher than okay or has more power over it means he just has. The husband has to ensure that the needs of the husband are taken care of spiritually and temporally, and he works with his wife to do that. But it doesn't mean he has more power over her.

Jillian Orr [01:27:17] But going.

Dillan Conrad [01:27:19] I'm actually curious to hear his thoughts.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] This little conversation right here is a microcosm of my Mormon experience, which is it's men having the power, men dominating the conversation and then telling women why they're more important while they're mostly silent.

Guest [01:27:35] When you were speaking about Heavenly Mother. When I first.

John Dehlin [01:27:38] All right, should we pause?

Liz Gunnell [01:27:39] So good.

John Dehlin [01:27:40] So much reaction so far.

Liz Gunnell [01:27:44] There was a lot in that. I loved the questions that you posed to Bella and gave her a moment to, like, answer what are your thoughts and experiences and feelings being a woman in this church? So that was great to hear her talk. But then the men started to take over a little bit.

Jillian Orr [01:27:59] I just. The reason I did it is because I felt hers was probably one of the most important opinions. It really was like, we as women can talk about it, we can talk about our experience, but her being in the church, I just love the rawness. Like, she's. She's the MVP of this. Like, I just think, shout out to Bella for being so honest of her experience and being like, yeah, this is it. But, like, this is what I see. This is what I experience. Here's the truth of it. And so I just wanted to know from her experience why she stayed back and what her experience has been, because it is the raw, real truth that we also experienced growing up.

Jillian Orr [01:28:35] Like, everything she said was very accurate to my full experience. And I just. I loved what she had said. And then it was so interesting how then Timbra was like, no, we're equal. No, we're equal. And it's like, no, we're telling you. We're telling you right now how we feel. Like, listen to our experience. He's like, but Judeo, listen to the Bible. This is what it means. This is the definition. Like, we don't care the definition. We're telling you how we feel. Oh.

Dillan Conrad [01:29:01] So in the. In the LDS temple, they don't do the veiling of the women's faces anymore?

John Dehlin [01:29:08] No, they change. They keep changing the temples.

Dillan Conrad [01:29:10] Oh, for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] And also, women don't covenant with their husbands to. Anymore. The women now covenant directly with God. But it used to be up until just a couple years ago that women covenanted to hearken unto their husbands as their husbands covenanted directly with God.

Dillan Conrad [01:29:29] Exactly.

Guest [01:29:29] Wow.

Jillian Orr [01:29:30] I didn't know that was changed. I thought it was interesting that Timber told us, explained all of that. Cause it kind of just proved even more that this is how it's always been. He's like, but good news. They just changed that in the temple. And it's like, see, it has been this way the whole time. Like, this has been a big deal. And I think it's also interesting, the whole, like, Heavenly Mother part that they bring in. Someone just asked me. They're like, what is this Heavenly Mother? Someone texted me this morning, and I was like, there's nothing. There's nothing you can find about any information or doctrine. Like, it feels like it's just an afterthought where we bring up a Heavenly Mother. And it was invented so women feel better.

Liz Gunnell [01:30:04] Yeah. I mean, it was almost shocking to hear in this conversation you bring up. Was it you that brought up Heavenly Mother just now?

Jillian Orr [01:30:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz Gunnell [01:30:15] It was almost shocking to hear Heavenly Mother because we never talk about. And she never even really occurred to me, ever once in my childhood growing up, that she was even a presence. It was just like Mary, she was a virgin, she had Jesus, and now it's Jesus and Heavenly Father, and that's all that matters, really. And Mary was a vessel, quite literally, and that's all she was. And so to even just think of her as a presence wasn't even an idea.

Jillian Orr [01:30:47] No importance at all.

Liz Gunnell [01:30:49] No importance. And I think that's huge. I spent 21 years in the church, not even a blip on my radar to even think of Heavenly Mother ever.

Dillan Conrad [01:30:59] I remember a story actually, on my mission where there was a member of one of the wards that got up in the meeting, and she was asked to give the opening prayer. And she said at the pulpit before she prayed, she said, I just feel very strongly that I also need to pray to Heavenly Mother today. And she did. And after she was finished, the presiding people told her pretty explicitly on the stand, you absolutely cannot do that. And I remember thinking about that on my mission and kind of having various reactions of missionaries being like, I can't believe she did that. It was so inappropriate.

Dillan Conrad [01:31:35] Now that I'm in my. This phase of life, I'm just like, what is so inappropriate about that? Why? You know that she's running the whole damn thing anyway. Like, you just know it. I mean, it's the whole thing with the conversation about Heavenly Mother is I totally see it where everybody wants to play that card of, like, we don't speak of her because she is so this. And so that. And whatever. But. But it's. Again, it goes back to that benevolent sexism and the highest order. It's inappropriate.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] Yeah. Like, just like last year, Fiona Givens was an employee of the Maxwell Institute at BYU as an apologist, and she got, like, she had to resign because she was going to get fired. This is how I understand it. She's Terrell. Terrell Givens was the main invitee to be, like, the Mormon Church's chief apologist. Somehow his wife was working there almost as a spousal hire. And again, this is just my understanding, but she was talking about Mother in Heaven too much. And so, as I understand it, she was told, either stay silent or you can't work here anymore. And so she resigned. And, you know, so it's.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] It's hard to know whether it's intentionally manipulative or just unconscious. But when they do things like in Mormonism, everyone goes to heaven, and we love all churches and we've got a mother in heaven and no one else does. Like, they've got to know at some level that, like, you get in trouble if you pray to Mother in Heaven.

Jillian Orr [01:33:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] And you can't talk about her. They've got to know that. But it's almost like the first talking point that they offer.

Dillan Conrad [01:33:16] Isn't there one LDS hymn that mentions.

John Dehlin [01:33:18] Yeah, and they said that in the thing.

Dillan Conrad [01:33:20] I can't remember.

Jillian Orr [01:33:20] What is it?

Dillan Conrad [01:33:21] Which one it is. Oh, My Father, which is a beautiful song.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] Truth is reason, Truth eternal. Tells me I have a mother there. And that's it.

Dillan Conrad [01:33:30] That's it.

John Dehlin [01:33:31] Even the Mormon scriptures don't really, as I understand it, mention it.

Jillian Orr [01:33:34] Afterthought. Always an afterthought. How many? That's one. One song out of how many. But, yeah, I think you nailed it right on the head where you're like, this has been my whole experience. All the men telling how the women feel. And we're like, yep. And we still. And they keep going, too.

John Dehlin [01:33:47] They do.

Jillian Orr [01:33:47] They keep going.

John Dehlin [01:33:48] I mean, they edited out a lot of cartoons. Cardin's mansplaining there.

Guest [01:33:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:52] Which made that mic drop moment a little bit less impactful because it had

Liz Gunnell [01:33:56] gone back and forth quite a bit. When you said that, way more.

John Dehlin [01:33:58] Remember what. Remember when Carden. This is something that didn't make the cut. When Carden came to you guys and said, priesthood, all you want is the priesthood. And you weren't even talking about.

Jillian Orr [01:34:08] That's right. He's like. And he did it a little bit at the beginning, and I caught that, because then he's like, what else do you want besides the priesthood? Why do you guys want the priesthood so bad? And I stopped him. And I was like, yeah, none of us have said we want the priesthood. And I looked at Liz and she's like, no. And Bella's like, none of us have said we want that. He just keeps saying, all you want is the priesthood. I'm like, no, we don't.

John Dehlin [01:34:25] And unfortunately, that didn't make the cut, though. I was disappointed with that. Well, that would have made. Yeah. The. The point a little more impactful.

Guest [01:34:32] Well, did it?

Dillan Conrad [01:34:33] Did the. When you said, can we let the women speak about this?

John Dehlin [01:34:39] That's coming? I think, yeah. I think. Yeah, let's play it.

▶ Video Clip 10

Video Clip 10 [01:34:45] First was speaking with the missionaries and learning more about the church. Obviously you're always talking about Jesus Christ and the Heavenly Father and all the Holy Ghost and all these things. And I don't know where, but I was thinking about it. I came across it. I was like, I want to learn more about Heavenly Mother. And it was probably a one and a half minute conversation because we don't know anything about. About Heavenly Mother. I was like, well, why do we know all these things and we don't know anything about Heavenly Mother? I was like, she should be equally important. I mean, she birthed the person we worship. So I just. It was. I couldn't fathom how we knew little to nothing about Heaven.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:25] It's not even that we speak less of her. It's. We don't speak.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:27] We don't speak of her. Yeah. Not allowed to.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:29] We're not even allowed to pray to her.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:30] Well, I would. Well, just. Cause you're not allowed to pray to something other than. And by the way, not allowed. I. I think that's misrepresented too. You have free agency. You can do whatever you want. But just because you don't have codified prayer to somebody other than our Father.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:42] How many times do you.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:43] Three times. Three. Drinking Gable.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:47] I actually got a question for you. I got a question for you girls.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:50] Girls.

Video Clip 10 [01:35:51] The division this into a pre.

Jillian Orr [01:35:55] I can't believe.

Liz Gunnell [01:35:57] Pause it.

Jillian Orr [01:35:57] When he said girls.

Dillan Conrad [01:36:00] I remember that.

Jillian Orr [01:36:01] I remember being so put back like girls. And I was like, boy, buddy, little buddy. Like it was.

Dillan Conrad [01:36:10] So I got a question for you girls. Oh, girl, he's so cringe.

Liz Gunnell [01:36:14] Yeah, no, I just want to imitate. I just have a question for you girls. Just a question for you girls. Ah, just want to.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] I mean, that's so super cringe, right?

Guest 1 [01:36:22] Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [01:36:23] So.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Yeah. Okay. Is that all?

Liz Gunnell [01:36:27] Yeah, that's all I got.

Dillan Conrad [01:36:28] That's all I got.

Liz Gunnell [01:36:28] There was something else I was gonna

Jillian Orr [01:36:29] say and I just forgot.

Liz Gunnell [01:36:30] I'm too overwhelmed.

Jillian Orr [01:36:31] That threw me off.

John Dehlin [01:36:32] Yeah, that was. That was hard to believe. He said that. Okay,

Guest 2 [01:36:37] but do you think it's possible to have equality with a division of labor? Or would equality be achieved in your mind with women receiving the priesthood?

Liz Gunnell [01:36:46] Here we go.

Guest 2 [01:36:46] And then I have a follow up. This just came to my mind. This isn't a gotcha, but what, what would satisfy your definition of equality? Must the women be given the priesthood? And that's the hill we're dying on here. Or is there any other definition that would satisfy you?

Guest [01:37:04] I think just being able to see at least one woman up there leading the congregation for at least half of the.

Guest 2 [01:37:12] Well, define leading.

Guest [01:37:15] Having an important job other than just

Liz Gunnell [01:37:18] interrupts her, I think are only allowed to be leaders of the women, whereas the men can be leaders of both men and women above all the church. So if women could have higher up roles where they are given more responsibility and more people in the congregation to care for and look after and given more positions of power, something equivalent to the priesthood.

Guest [01:37:40] Maybe not the priesthood, but at least equivalent.

Guest 2 [01:37:42] So then what would you call, like for example, Sister Espinous? I can't name the heads of the Relief Society, but the young women I can because I'm a little bit more aware of it because I have children that are youth. But Sister Espinous, Emily Belle Freeman, all of these women that have wildly powerful positions within the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints.

Jillian Orr [01:38:04] Wow.

Guest 2 [01:38:04] I mean, Emily Belle Friedman is probably one of the single most powerful Mormons in the world, I would say.

John Dehlin [01:38:09] Does anybody claim that the Relief Society presidency are incredibly powerful?

Dillan Conrad [01:38:15] Oh, this guy can.

Jillian Orr [01:38:16] In what world? Like, what power do they have?

Liz Gunnell [01:38:20] Yeah, they're. They're teaching you recipes on Wednesdays and, and talking about giving, like raising and nurturing children every Sunday.

Jillian Orr [01:38:29] What.

Liz Gunnell [01:38:30] What is the power? And they're not talking or administering to any men. They're not giving anyone blessings.

Jillian Orr [01:38:34] No doctrine. They can't for God.

John Dehlin [01:38:37] And he's talking about the, the Relief Study General Presidency. And it's like, yeah, they have the power to sit up on the stand during General Conference. But like, what power do they have? He's saying it's incredibly powerful.

Liz Gunnell [01:38:50] So powerful that they're visible sometimes.

Jillian Orr [01:38:53] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [01:38:54] If we wanted to show card enough, all we had to do was ask him that question.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] The power. Completely invisible.

Liz Gunnell [01:39:01] Wow.

Jillian Orr [01:39:03] That is more power than the rest of us. They get to be seen right yeah,

John Dehlin [01:39:07] it's weird that he made that argument, right?

Dillan Conrad [01:39:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Yeah, Dave.

Guest 2 [01:39:13] She put something out on Instagram. It'd probably have almost as much pull as Russell M. Nelson in the Pacific Northwest. So if we were to give just women the priesthood, magically, all of a sudden, right now, it seems like these arguments kind of come from a politically secular leftist stance of, like, representation, which I get. I understand movies are cooler when you see somebody that looks like you in it. I get that. But then would you want to preach from a Bible that's almost written wholly and completely by men at that point? Would the demands of equality require that we have equal representation in the books?

Guest 2 [01:39:47] There's only one book, Esther. Now we'll take one book out of the Septuagint and ignore the Book of Mormon because there's not a single one that's written by a woman. Like, I don't see. Unless we accept the dichotomy that there can be equality with a division of labor, I don't see where it ends. Even after giving women the priesthood. And this is an honest question.

Jillian Orr [01:40:11] I think it's even taking a bigger step back from even just having a position. But, like, first of all, yes, I do think that women should be able to be a position of power. It is the whole doctrine of the church that how. Of how women are seen and how they were treated. It's bigger than just a position. It's how they are treated. It's like, these are their responsibilities. This is the woman's responsibility. In the Doctrine of the Family Proclamation, it says very clearly what a woman's job is and what a man's job is. And guess who wrote that. Bunch of white men. Did any of the women write that or present it?

Jillian Orr [01:40:42] No, the men did. Do women get to even be a prophet? No, there's never been a woman prophet. And so we always have these assumptions, but it really is how women are treated in general and how they are seen of their position in the church as a whole, not just by. Okay, you can be over all the women. Congrats. You have a big Instagram. It's bigger than that.

Dillan Conrad [01:41:01] It's okay for the doctor.

John Dehlin [01:41:02] Love that Instagram jab. That was healing. What was? Do you think of his argument that this woman, who I've never heard of, if she posted something on Instagram, it would get more attention than Russell and Nelson? Is there any world where that's true?

Jillian Orr [01:41:16] No. And he didn't even know who she was, so obviously it didn't. He's like, she has a Bigger Instagram following. So that's her big power.

Dillan Conrad [01:41:23] I will say that they let Carden down easily with that thing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:30] Because they left off a lot of cringy stuff.

Liz Gunnell [01:41:32] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] Do you remember?

Liz Gunnell [01:41:35] I don't. I just remember a comment I made at the end of that segment, which was to Cardan saying, cardan, my welcome into Relief Society was a spatula. Like when I. I can't believe when I was welcomed to Relief Society, they gave me a spatula and a hand knitted, like, oven mitt. And it was like, you're a woman now. You can, like, cook for your kids. Because you're like, gonna get married and have kids and you can cook and use your spatula. And it was just.

Dillan Conrad [01:42:08] Do you still have that spatula?

Liz Gunnell [01:42:09] Yes. No, I don't. No, I don't.

Jillian Orr [01:42:12] It's interesting how he kept going back to the division of labor. The division of labor, the division of labor. It's like you're missing everything. He's missing the whole point. It was besides the priesthood, besides getting this. If we could invent another one. And even Bella was like, if there's another example of another invisible that the church has invented for men, if we could invent a superpower for women too, then we'd be equal. And I'm just like.

Dillan Conrad [01:42:34] So they did cut the part where you said that we're not talking about the priesthood at all.

Jillian Orr [01:42:38] No one is saying that they want the priesthood. It was right before that last comment that I made. I was like, we're not even talking. No one has mentioned that.

John Dehlin [01:42:45] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [01:42:45] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] Yeah. It's like he had a prepared answer. He came to give to a question y' all weren't even asking.

Dillan Conrad [01:42:51] Yeah, well, even the question that he asked the girls, he kept going. He didn't let anyone even respond to it.

Guest [01:43:00] He.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:00] He would come up with his own answers. Because it seems like to me there's nothing that could be done.

Jillian Orr [01:43:05] Yes.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:05] It's like you just asked a question, asked the question, let the girls answer,

Jillian Orr [01:43:10] answered it, then asked the question, and then answered it again.

John Dehlin [01:43:16] Yeah, that was a problem.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:17] I can't wait for his family to watch.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:19] Watch this.

John Dehlin [01:43:20] Well, it'll be curious to see. I'm sure Ward Radio is going to do a reaction.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:25] We'll get to see the comments like, congratulations, Cardon, you killed was amazing.

Liz Gunnell [01:43:29] You codified it, Cardon. You codified so hard. We should have had shots for every time you said codify.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:35] Seriously, I guess we can do that today.

John Dehlin [01:43:38] We did say codify. Margi was even Saying just stop saying codify. It comes up more. By the way, it really.

Liz Gunnell [01:43:46] He said it in every segment.

John Dehlin [01:43:47] Yeah, yeah. It's all about codified. Okay, this is fun. All right, let's go to the next clip.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:53] Doctrine to change.

John Dehlin [01:43:55] It's okay for the doctrine to change. That's the prompt.

Dillan Conrad [01:43:57] I really enjoyed this one.

▶ Video Clip 11

Video Clip 11 [01:44:01] There's scriptural precedent for it changing. And one of the most beautiful aspects of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the fact that we have and rely on upon modern prophets, and we take what they say seriously and look forward to that prophetic revelation. But at the end of the day, we still have to go home and get that same revelation. We have to get that same answer from God directly from him that dovetails with that revelation so that we know in our core that that is what God wants for his children. We don't have a static God.

Video Clip 11 [01:44:36] I just. I disagree there because God is unchangeable. As it states in the Scriptures, there are eternal principles that are eternal. They never change. But how those principles are applied can change over time, but the eternal principles remain the same period. If we don't have any objective, solid, eternal truth, then everything is relative and relativity leads to chaos.

Video Clip 11 [01:45:03] We're talking about understanding God and eternal principles. I mean, we're talking about cosmic law, multi dimensions, Everything so expansive. And all that information, part of it is being channeled through the mind of fallible people who are writing things down in a fallible language, being interpreted to people with fallible understanding.

Video Clip 11 [01:45:25] Modern times, you need modern measures. So it's useful that way. Have prophets on this earth to this day, because everything is ever changing. I mean, look at our language and look at the way it used to be. Look how it is now. It's just everybody needs an updated interpretation.

John Dehlin [01:45:43] One of my favorite things about the Mormon Church is how much it's changed. And I can think about three issues that really troubled me when I was an orthodox devout member. One was when I went to the temple for the first time and I had to slit my throat as part of.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] Use my hand, my thumb, as a sign to slit my throat as part of a covenant I was making in the temple. I was super glad when I found out they took that out in 1990. The second was, I'm old enough to remember when black Mormons were not allowed to hold the priesthood. They were not allowed to hold certain offices in the church, and when they were kept out of the temple with just basic temple blessings. And I was super happy in 1978 when they allowed black people to be members in full standing. The final one, my grandmother was the daughter of a third wife.

John Dehlin [01:46:31] So I come directly from a polygamous ancestry. And it wasn't until I was 30 or 31 that I found out that the founder of Mormonism, Joseph smith, married over 30 women, 14 year olds, other men's wives. That information was withheld from me for 30 years.

John Dehlin [01:46:47] And I was super happy that over time the church has distanced itself from polygamy because I think it's one of the most horrendous teachings that the church has ever had. So I'm super grateful the church changes.

Guest 1 [01:46:59] I have to push back because I think there's some things that are misconstrued as doctrine, that are policies and we see that as the church, which thing

John Dehlin [01:47:11] that I just said was a misconception.

Guest 1 [01:47:13] Blacks not receiving the priesthood.

John Dehlin [01:47:16] Isn't that just a fact?

Guest 1 [01:47:17] Well, no. But you're saying it was a doctrine that changed.

John Dehlin [01:47:20] Well, the first presidency, the. The prophet and the first and second counselor prior to 1978, on multiple occasions signed statements saying that it was doctrine that that black people could not be members in full standing. That's the first presidency in the 1940s and 50s.

Guest 2 [01:47:36] Yeah, but that was a corruption. Joseph Smith baptized free men. He had a presidential platform based upon abolition. The Mormon Church was basically an abolitionist entity that the government feared in the west for its first 50 years. The fact that it adopted some bad ideas of the curse of Cain because of Protestant influence coming from the south, especially when Parley P. Pratt returned as a missionary from the south and the pressures put on Brigham Young as a governor of the state of Delta, that is. That is an abuse of history.

John Dehlin [01:48:08] But it's your prophets, the people that you believe claim spoke to God and that I used to believe, they're the ones signing these statements. It's David O. McKay. It's people that you sustain as prophets, ears and revelators. So how do you know when they're speaking as a man? When they're excluding an entire race of people from full participation? How do you know they're speaking for God or speaking. Speaking for themselves until the social.

Guest 2 [01:48:31] I answered that right at the beginning of this whole entire prompt. It's a two part path. You receive revelation from a prophet, you go home, you pray about it, you confirm it. Like, I actually really appreciate this question because it gets to the root of epistemology.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] Should we let Kwaku answer this?

Dillan Conrad [01:48:51] I think the human ego speaks when we want. We want our environment and the bubble we're in because everyone lives in a bubble. We don't want that bubble to change, no matter what. Human beings are prideful. Human beings have ego. Everyone does. I look at some of the things our church leaders said. David O. McKay. Right. Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith. I know they weren't, you know, singing Kumbaya with black people. I get that. You know, I totally get that. But at the same time, I understand that people are also products of their environment. And I don't want to condemn someone who's not here to defend themselves. And in the same way, 100 years from now, someone will look at us and they'll say, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you guys were using your cobalt iPhones built by child slaves. Please don't deny My humanity 100 years from now.

Guest 1 [01:49:39] Well, look at a New Testament example. Peter. Peter was the leading apostle during the time of the original apostles, right? And he was making gentile converts get circumcised. And Paul confronts him to the face, saying that this is unnecessary. So you have disagreement within the apostleship. And so.

Race, Skin Color Doctrine, and the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [01:50:01] But doesn't the Book of Mormon say that God cursed white people with dark skin for their wickedness? Isn't that in your scriptural canon?

Guest 1 [01:50:09] It depends on your interpretation.

Dillan Conrad [01:50:11] I've never read it.

John Dehlin [01:50:12] What's your interpretation?

Guest 1 [01:50:13] Well, there's scriptures in the Old Testament where certain individuals say, there's a skin of blackness upon me that is totally symbolic of being in a state of distress.

Dillan Conrad [01:50:25] Or, Solomon, I am black. But come, Leo.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] So what did God do to the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon? In your interpretation, did he not turn their skin dark because of their wickedness? Even though the book says that?

Guest 1 [01:50:35] No, no, I think it was. Was a spiritual mark, just like with Cain.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] We don't. But it says skin of blackness in the Book of Mormon. It says skin of blackness.

Guest 1 [01:50:43] It's an idiom. There are many idioms that are mistranslated

John Dehlin [01:50:49] to call it an idiom.

Guest 1 [01:50:50] No, when it says skin of blackness. Because you need to.

John Dehlin [01:50:53] And when it talks about their dark skin, God made them dark so that they'll be loathsome to the white skin.

Guest 1 [01:51:00] It's not. Because if you're a biblical and Greek scholar, you really realize there are idioms like this one, which is well known in ancient scripture as being a symbol

Dillan Conrad [01:51:10] of being a distraction, as a dark. Can I speak? I've never read it that way. The Book of Mormon is, by and large, about Native Americans. And whenever we bring up the subject of race, suddenly it turns into Europeans being switched into Sub Saharan Africans. But that's not what the book is saying. When I read the Book of Mormon, I'm seeing Nephi, which. Which is where this comes from, you know, the cursing. Nephi hates the Lamanites. He's finding every single way to dislike them. And then his brother Jacob comes and says, hey, you should not hate them because they're darker than you. And then Samuel, the Lamanite, the dark prophet, is speaking to the white Nephites, and he's saying, hey, no, you're actually cursed.

Dillan Conrad [01:51:47] And they say, let's remove him from the record. And Jesus comes in and says, put him back in the record. It's showing a history of prejudice and how to overcome it.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] So what does it mean? What does skin of blackness mean in

Dillan Conrad [01:51:58] the Book of Mormon? Yeah, Nephi may very well believe that. Jacob doesn't. That doesn't mean it's prescriptive. That means it's descriptive.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] So you're saying.

Dillan Conrad [01:52:07] You're saying To Kill a Mockingbird is racist.

John Dehlin [01:52:09] You're saying Nephi was racist but not God?

Dillan Conrad [01:52:12] I'm saying possibly. It's effectively a diary.

John Dehlin [01:52:18] Cool. Cool, cool, bro.

Jillian Orr [01:52:20] Cool.

John Dehlin [01:52:21] All right, Reactions. That was a lot.

Liz Gunnell [01:52:23] That was a lot. That was a lot.

Dillan Conrad [01:52:25] I loved Cardan's defeated face in some of that. He's just like.

Jillian Orr [01:52:31] It's interesting. Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:52:33] So being defeated, or was he like. I wish that we could really talk about this in depth and I could say more.

Jillian Orr [01:52:39] I don't know, probably.

Liz Gunnell [01:52:40] That you think is my.

Jillian Orr [01:52:41] I think he's like, I have a lot I want to say about this. Yeah, I think Kwaku was the one that should be talking about it. And it's interesting how. How Timber was like, going and going, and he's like, as a dark. Can I speak on this? Yes, you should be speaking on this.

Liz Gunnell [01:52:54] Yes.

Jillian Orr [01:52:55] But it's interesting to hear their mental gymnastics around the skin of darkness, because the church has never said that. The church has never said. It's an idiom like this. I was raised reading and understanding. They have dark skin. They have light skin. There are pictures, there's illustrations. There's stuff in the book, books that we read and were raised in. That that's what happened is when you became a, you know, a sinner in the Book of Mormon, you got a skin of darkness.

Dillan Conrad [01:53:20] Yeah. An idiom just feels so much more comfortable for people.

John Dehlin [01:53:25] Did any of you ever even hear the word idiom growing up in the Mormon Church?

Jillian Orr [01:53:29] I've never heard that explanation till just then. And I Was like, oh, that's. That's a twist.

Liz Gunnell [01:53:33] That's a new one. Yeah, yeah. No, I heard from. I mean, I don't want to owe any family members. This was a while ago. But, you know, my parents are. My dad just turned 70, so a little bit older generation. And I definitely heard, growing up, like, a lot of kind of racist remarks. I was told that white people should marry white people.

Liz Gunnell [01:54:02] Interracial marriage is a. No. There was. I remember me and my twin sister got really upset at someone in my family that said this. And I don't think they. This was when we were teenagers, so maybe they've come along, but we had a young woman leader that was black. She was married to a white man. We loved both of them so much. Power couple.

Liz Gunnell [01:54:27] And someone in my family said they shouldn't be married. They shouldn't be married. And I just think that that's how deep the racism is in the church. That it's, It's. It was just such a. It was a very normal thing, I think, for me as a kid to hear a lot of these, like, racist remarks. And so I definitely think I had some.

Liz Gunnell [01:54:53] I'm losing terms, like, some instilled, like, racism that I had to, like, get over being raised Mormon, because it's kind of. People will disagree, but I think that it's. I think it's baked into the religion, personally.

John Dehlin [01:55:10] It is. It's codified. It's literally. It's doctrinal. And the fact that they were trying to downplay it as, like, a metaphorical thing. Or how about that argument that maybe Nephi was racist but God isn't racist?

Liz Gunnell [01:55:24] Yeah, yeah.

Jillian Orr [01:55:26] So valid.

Dillan Conrad [01:55:27] Totally valid.

Jillian Orr [01:55:28] Well, then a prophet, another prophet was racist then. If he was, then Nephi was a prophet. There we go. Add that to the list.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] Yeah, that was interesting conversation.

Liz Gunnell [01:55:37] Yeah, yeah, there's a lot.

John Dehlin [01:55:39] All right, let's keep going. So this is the ex Mormons join.

Doctrine vs. Policy and Who Gets to Decide

Dillan Conrad [01:55:47] Whether the doctrine can change. It was. Is it okay for the doctrine to change? And I feel like that puts the church into a very precarious situation. Especially going back to our last discussion when you said something that's still kind of in my head. The doctrine. The abuse of the doctrine of eternal family can. The doctrine of eternal family. Is it okay for the doctrine of eternal family to change within the LDS Church?

Guest 2 [01:56:15] Is it okay? Again, I would just say, I guess, define okay. Is there a scriptural precedent for it? And it could. Yes, absolutely. If a prophet were to come out and say, I've received a revelation from God and X is going to change. And then, you know, he announces it in general conference. And I go home and pray about it. Tamara goes home and pray about it. We realize, okay, cool. This is a revelation from God. It's changing.

Dillan Conrad [01:56:40] What about the families that lost so many sons and daughters to suicide because of that never changing doctrine of specific eternal families? You cannot go to celestial Kingdom because you believe in this. We'll be able to visit you every now and again. We'll have a little family reunion, that kind of thing. But you just can't come and visit us up there if that changes. The LDS Church is, I mean, they tried to do a little change a Roo in 2015 where they were like, you know, children of, you know, same sex households can't get baptized. And that was changed real quick. And my parents. But we're talking about, would you want me to lie? Oh, definitely.

▶ Video Clip 12

Video Clip 12 [01:57:27] So first off, individually, just man to man, friend to friend. If. Well, hopefully we'll become friends. Cringe if somebody actually said that to you, what you just articulated right there, that is not Christ doctrine applied through Christ, like love. There's three or four things that are wrong with what has happened to you guys. If you guys are indeed regurgitating the story the way it happened.

Video Clip 12 [01:57:56] Regurgitating.

Video Clip 12 [01:57:56] And I believe you. So on the individual level, I want to say I see you, I validate what you've gone through. And my first initial reaction would be first to very quickly delineate between the church with a little C and a church with a big C. I will tell you the church with a big C and its codified doctrine is loving to all, gives an eternal, immeasurable value to every soul, and views you from first as a child of God, not as a gay man, not as an ex husband to a woman or a current husband to a man. It sees you as who you are.

Video Clip 12 [01:58:31] With that said, we all have really cringy, awkward friends who've said incorrect, sometimes maybe even cruel things to LGBTQ members justified by false conceptions of God or misinterpretations of doctrine and their bigotry. They have tried to. To couch in religious writ or religious culture. And that is wrong. Simultaneously, if we're talking about, is it okay that doctrine changes? Yes, there's a completely, totally codified Runway for how doctrine can change in our church. And it is okay for us as members because there's a mechanism for recognizing that as the revelation.

Video Clip 12 [01:59:09] It is safe for the LDS Church to delineate between policy and doctrine because if they change certain Things that they deem doctrine, they're.

Video Clip 12 [01:59:16] I think the problem is it keeps changing. And what happens is the prophet will say something, and then he says, this is God's word. And he does something like how youth couldn't get baptized if they were the children of queer parents. But then it swaps.

Video Clip 12 [01:59:29] He did say, when he said, this is doctrine, this came from God, and

Video Clip 12 [01:59:33] then it swapped back. So the problem that I have is that it's not that policies or things can change. It's the fact that we're constantly attributing things to God. And then when it changes again, we're like, oh, it was policy. Oh, it's a fallacy of man.

Video Clip 12 [01:59:45] What kills me is, like, I was taught that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And so on one hand, I feel like doctrines shouldn't change. And when we do see the changes happening, a lot of the time it's because of social media, it's because of headlines, it's because of the church trying to become more acceptable in society. And so with doctrine, like, polygamy was once practitioned. Now it's like an FLDS thing. But it was once practiced by the mainstream church. Now it's been disavowed. We no longer do polygamy. Well, technically, it still is practiced in heaven. Polygamy will be practiced. It's the way the lawymy. And so I feel like it's been disavowed here on earth to, like, appease society and yet in heaven.

Video Clip 12 [02:00:27] So to summarize, you're essentially saying that

Video Clip 12 [02:00:30] whenever there's social pressure that changes it,

Video Clip 12 [02:00:32] it gets put into policy. I think it's okay for not to be a jerk, but this just sounds like. And I don't mean this to be disrespectful, but it sounds like you're just having a gripe like, yes, you can be frustrated that things have changed back and forth, but it is good for organizations to change for the better. I don't understand how anyone can say it's wrong for doctrine to change.

John Dehlin [02:00:52] So I came out in the prompt. Okay, really quick, let me go ahead and pause, and then we'll keep going. Because that's a lot.

Liz Gunnell [02:00:57] Because it's a lot. Yeah. I don't know if we'll get, like, flagged if we play too much of their video in one go.

John Dehlin [02:01:04] What do you guys think of this big C, little C church idea? Have you ever heard in a Mormon context, a leader say, look, there's the. There's the big C church, which is the doctrine. And when we're talking you really need to obey and listen to us. But hey members, there's this little C church where like if you don't like what I say in general conference or if I, I'm sharing an opinion that's cringy or awkward, you don't have to really believe it. Did you ever hear that growing up in the church?

Dillan Conrad [02:01:33] Actually I, I might be the only one that feels this way even in the comments, but I actually don't really fully understand what the term Mormon apologist is. So would you be able to provide some context and cuz it almost seems like it's someone who has to explain away these types of terrible things that people hear about the LDS church.

John Dehlin [02:01:58] So the term apologist is not a uniquely Mormon term. I think it, it just means a defender of the faith. So like Christianity has a long multi century tradition of apologia or apologetics where whenever problems with the Bible, like slavery, like women being silent in the church, like what it says about, about homosexuals in the Bible, someone's got to stand up and explain why that's not a problem.

Dillan Conrad [02:02:24] So is it? So it's usually used as a pejorative. So Cardan and Kwaku wouldn't call themselves Mormon apologists, only people would refer to them as Mormon apologists.

John Dehlin [02:02:32] So it's both. I think, I think, I think there are plenty of apologists in Mormonism and in Christianity that are proud to use that term. But it becomes a pejorative especially for people who are critical thinkers because it leads to these sort of really strained, awkward explanations. So the, the funniest example. Well, the funniest example in Mormonism is we've got this horse problem in the Book of Mormon where during the time of the Book of Mormon there's not supposed to be horses because in Mesoamerica and South and Central and North America there weren't horses during the time of the Book of Mormon. That was like 10,000 years earlier. So what do you think do with that? So a Mormon apologist out of the Farms Institute out of BYU speculated that maybe when the book says horse they meant taper.

Guest [02:03:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:25] And so that what that's led is to like you know, memes of like Native Americans riding around on tapers. But you know that that's all they've got to work with.

Dillan Conrad [02:03:34] I remember hearing the horse thing from the film God's Army.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [02:03:38] Where they like the guy that is struggling a lot with the religion throughout his mission he keeps referring to certain things about Cause he's reading anti Mormon literature. Which is interesting because Richard Dutcher, the director of God's army, eventually did leave the church. And I feel like Richard Dutcher, he hasn't made films for quite a long time, but I feel like he is one of the most prolific, talented creators of that kind of work because it really shows the nuance that he's able to provide on screen. I've always really appreciated his work.

John Dehlin [02:04:06] We've missed his work. What do y' all think about that conversation?

Jillian Orr [02:04:10] Just going back to what you're saying was like his big C, little C of like. Well, there's these rules, but then there's the other rules. Like there's no difference.

John Dehlin [02:04:18] Yeah. Okay, I'll. I'll ask you both about this. What about this idea of doctrine versus policy? Have you ever, in your Mormon context, heard a leader go, now listen, X, Y and Z, that's doctrine. But this other example, that's just policy. And you don't have to follow it because it's not doctrine.

Liz Gunnell [02:04:35] It's almost like Kwaku and Cardin and Tim. They're trying to say when they're coming out, saying it's policy. It's like the prophet is already saying he's speaking as a man. He's already just owning the fact that he's speaking as a man. It's policy, it's not doctrine. But whenever the prophet speaks, it is doctrine. And then when they're wrong and they're speaking as a man and it's convenient, then it. And it's a policy that can change willy nilly.

Jillian Orr [02:05:02] There's so many statements that I remember being raised in that it's like a prerequisite in case something doesn't work out. That's what it feels like to me is that safety net. We have to say they're just men, they're just human, but they speak for God. So when they want you to follow it, they're like, the prophet speaks for man. And they also say that live revelation always trumps past revelation. But then when it doesn't work out and something needs to change, they're like, like, oh, but he's just a man. And this is just a policy. So it's like they get to decide in their favor which one it gets to be.

Dillan Conrad [02:05:32] Yeah, I had family members that when it came to the 2015 policy regarding same sex couples not being able to, you know, their people living with them, not being able to be baptized until 18 family members of mine were just like, oh, the reason why it changed is because they weren't. You know, the people that were struggling with it weren't able to handle it. They weren't strong enough for that. So God, in his infinite wisdom and kindness and love was like, oh, no, we'll go ahead and change this, because you guys just aren't ready for this. And it just feels so icky to me. To me. I saw it immediately as we messed up. We're fallible men, and we messed up, and we're going to have to treat it like God changed his mind or how. I don't even know. They knew that. They stepped in it, and it was glaringly apparent to me.

Liz Gunnell [02:06:21] It's just always that circle circular reasoning where we're right no matter what. Because if it's not this, it's that. If it's not policy, it's doctrine. It's not doctrine, it's policy. He's speaking as a man. No, he's a prophet. It reminds me of things like if you receive a priesthood blessing and you're sick, and it's like, if you're healed, it's God's will. If you're not healed, it was God's will. But it's like, what's the point of the blessing then if God's going to do what he wants anyway? So it's just like, how you can be right no matter what.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] Yeah, yeah. RFM is texting me, and he made the joke that a doctrine is just an unchanged policy. You know what I mean?

Jillian Orr [02:07:01] There we go. Hasn't changed yet.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] Yeah, yeah. Like, yesterday's doctrine is today's policy. Today's doctrine is tomorrow's policy.

Dillan Conrad [02:07:12] I remember being taught that everything over the pulpit, that said, especially in around general conference, is doctrine. Like, it just is.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] And what's the. What's the primary song that we all know about prophets?

Dillan Conrad [02:07:23] Follow the prophet.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] Follow the prophet. Follow the prophet. Don't go astray.

Dillan Conrad [02:07:28] Yeah, he knows the way.

John Dehlin [02:07:29] He knows the way. It's not like follow the prophet unless you consider it policy. Some caveats, awkward and cheesy and outdated. Follow the. You know. Anyway, all right, let's see what the next moment is here. Because I'm grateful that the church has made these changes. The problem is that they don't own up to the mistakes they've made. They've never apologized to black people for excluding them for over a century. The problem is that when the church teaches something as doctrine to all its members and it leads to carnage, whether it's LGBTQ deaths, destruction of families, systemic racism for over 150 years. The church never owns up and apologizes and says, hey, sorry black people, we excluded you for 150 years.

LGBTQ Youth Harm and Church Accountability

John Dehlin [02:08:17] Sorry, parents of LGBT and siblings of LGBTQ youth, sorry that your kids died. The church just says, oh, that was just. That was just policy. They were all speaking as men, but then they turn around and say, but if the prophet. But if the prophet's speaking now, you have to obey the prophet. You have to follow the prophet. The church never. The church never atones. It never does what it asks the members to do.

Dillan Conrad [02:08:39] I'm saying this as much grace as I can muster. Our beloved prophet, Russell M. Nelson, you know, he is nearly 100. I'm not kidding. He's 99 and he is running a global organization. When he was going into college, the prophet of our church at his time was still a polygamist. Right. I mean, we're talking about old. Old that he was born before the television, the former Queen of England and Martin Luther King and has outlived two of those three things. Okay, so again, give him grace. Like, these people are doing the best.

John Dehlin [02:09:13] But then what's the value of a prophet?

Jillian Orr [02:09:15] Like, do you believe he talks?

Dillan Conrad [02:09:17] The value of the prophet is look at the people.

Jillian Orr [02:09:18] But he talks directly to God sometimes face to face.

Dillan Conrad [02:09:22] Maybe, I don't know.

Jillian Orr [02:09:23] But like God tells him the truths that he needs to know from world today is what you believe.

Dillan Conrad [02:09:27] We're talking about a beautiful cosmic entity that is heavenly father trying to channel information through a 99 year old man in Salt Lake City.

Jillian Orr [02:09:34] But he does.

Guest [02:09:34] Yes.

Dillan Conrad [02:09:35] Yeah. To you as well.

Guest 1 [02:09:36] Yeah, but he gets to.

Jillian Orr [02:09:37] So am I a prophet? I don't know.

Dillan Conrad [02:09:40] Are you?

Liz Gunnell [02:09:42] Nice one.

Dillan Conrad [02:09:43] That was my favorite prompt of the whole experience. I thought it just brought out so much interesting nuance.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] Yeah.

Guest 1 [02:09:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:52] You guys,

Jillian Orr [02:09:54] I just. He wouldn't answer the question because this. I was born and raised and it's right. Everything is that the prophet speaks to God. He speaks for God. He speaks to God. He speaks for God. That is what is ingrained, is that we follow him. Whatever he says, it's because he talks to God. And that's what I wanted to like, see if he would say if, like you believe that he talks to God. Yes or no. And he's like, well, but he's old.

Dillan Conrad [02:10:16] And he talks to you like he.

Jillian Orr [02:10:17] And he talks to you like. And then what's the point of a prophet? Because what I'm trying to get with this point is if we really believe that he is the prophet and he speaks to God, can't he just be like, hey, God, where are we at with, like, LGBTQ people? Where are we at with Heavenly Mother? What do you want? And we're not. We're getting so much confusion. We're getting so much back and forth. Because I was told that there are even places in the temple that the prophet goes and. And sits in and meets with God face to face. I was told this.

Jillian Orr [02:10:46] I was taught, like, this is. There's special. It's called the Holy of Holies. And they go, and he speaks to God. And so that's where I'm like, okay, if we do believe this, then why isn't he asking these crucial pivotal questions? And why are we not getting crucial, pivotal answers? And why are things changing?

Dillan Conrad [02:11:01] And my opinion has never changed regarding, you know, the prompt being, is it okay for the doctrine to change? I really appreciated how John was able to bring up the fact that the LDS Church has never apologized for any of the things that they have done in the past, whether it came to how they treated blacks with their experience or lgbt. It was just. For me, I feel like the church is just going to be on such unshaky ground with lawsuits and stuff because of all the horrible things that have taken taken place because of their doctrine slash policies. And I just don't think it's. They don't think it's okay for the doctrine to change, because if not, then they don't have that equal, that steady footing.

John Dehlin [02:11:46] Yeah. Can any of you remember, you know, this rhetoric that Quake was using? And I think he believes it, but I think it's just so misleading because have you ever heard somebody say, well, Russell Nelson's 99, like, he's just a dude. He receives revelation from God just like the rest of you.

Dillan Conrad [02:12:05] I feel like the church would need to release some kind of statement like, this is not what we believe. Like, we believe he is of sound mind and he does speak to God.

Dillan Conrad [02:12:14] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:12:15] And something they cut out of that was that Kwaku's like, well, not all prophets are the same. You know, he's no Moses. He's no. And I was like, what? Because to me, growing up and understanding dissonance is a prophet's a prophet. But he's like, but he's not. Like, he's not like NBA level prophet. He's like minor league prophet.

Liz Gunnell [02:12:34] Like, oh, there's levels. Now it's back to that in Speak versus Outspeak that you were talking about John. Imagine if Kwaku was at the pulpit saying this about the prophet. Would Never happen.

John Dehlin [02:12:43] They turn off his pulpit and ask him to sit down.

Liz Gunnell [02:12:45] Can you please sit down, sir?

John Dehlin [02:12:46] No.

Liz Gunnell [02:12:47] That's the prophet you're talking about. It just wouldn't happen. And so it's frustrating that there's this double standard and they can always get away with it. It's just like. Just admit, like you were trying to get him to admit to you. Does he talk to God? He's old is what he was saying.

Jillian Orr [02:13:01] You talk to God. Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [02:13:03] You also.

Dillan Conrad [02:13:04] Am I a prophet?

John Dehlin [02:13:05] And by the way, perfect. I'll just say it again. I think Kwaku really believes those things, and I think it was bold for him to say things like, he's an old dude. He talks to God just like we all do. But it's not representative of Mormon doctrine and theology.

Guest [02:13:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:21] And these things that are being said by Cardan, by Quake, Waiku, by the other guy, Timber.

Dillan Conrad [02:13:27] Timber finally learned his name.

John Dehlin [02:13:30] They're saying things that could never be said over the pulpit and that they would be punished, likely for saying.

Jillian Orr [02:13:38] I think the church is going to be really cringe that they're representing the church right now.

John Dehlin [02:13:43] You do?

Guest [02:13:43] I do.

Jillian Orr [02:13:43] I think the church is going to be upset about it because they're not.

John Dehlin [02:13:46] Wait, wait. Because they're not orthodox enough, because they're too liberal or because they're embarrassing? Honestly, those are two different problems. I want to hear each one of you answer this.

Dillan Conrad [02:13:54] I feel like they were taking a lot of different swings personally with what they believed in. And I feel like the church is going to be like, that was your opinion.

John Dehlin [02:14:04] So for you, they're not representing orthodoxy adequately.

Liz Gunnell [02:14:07] Liz, to be honest, I think the church is going to be stoked. I think the church is going to be really excited that they have these young, hip Mormons talking about how nuanced and progressive the church is. It's so welcoming to get people to come in. And it's like it's normalizing Mormonism. Like, we're not as weird as you think. And then you get inside and it's like, oh, wait, they're not saying this stuff at the pulpit. So I think the church will personally like it because I think it paints them in a better light.

Jillian Orr [02:14:35] And I see. That's why I think they're not going to be stoked about it is because I think just because Kueiko represented that the group did not, I think we really pulled out the rawness is that the church wants to be of part perceived as being very progressive and that we're starting to be more accepting But I think when it came down to it, and we held them accountable to it, that we're like, but it's not. It's not this way. And it's being perceived that it is. And so I think that's why they're going to be upset about it.

Dillan Conrad [02:14:59] And I still, this is my interpretation on it, and someone else might have a better understanding. But I was always very confused when they asked President Uchtdorf to step down from the First Presidency when Russell M. Nelson became the president of the church. And I had always seen Uchtdorf as someone who was actually a little bit more progressive than most, someone who would be probably wanting to talk about, like, well, what about the LGBT stance on certain things? How about how they would feel about certain things? And I think when Russell Nelson became the president, he was like, you know what? I just don't know if we need someone exactly like Uchtdorf.

Dillan Conrad [02:15:38] And I think the way that it was talked about was that he just wanted to do a different thing in the world and explore something different. But I was like, he was in the First Presidency. I don't think any. I could be wrong, of course, but, like, I don't think anyone's ever been demoted like that from the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [02:15:53] Happened a couple times. Super rare.

Jillian Orr [02:15:55] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [02:15:55] I was very. My family was just so like, oh, he just do whatever he wants. He's, you know, he's happy doing whatever. And I'm like, Uchtdorf was he. He kind of got it. Like, he was pretty progressive with certain things.

John Dehlin [02:16:05] Yeah, he's been silenced and he was demoted for sure. Yeah. Yeah. The one that I'm aware of in my lifetime was Hubie Brown. So David O. McKay was prophet for a couple decades. Hubie Brown was one of his counselors. He was super liberal. So, like in the early 60s, Hubie Brown, as a member of the first presidency, was saying that he hoped the black members would get the priesthood soon. Soon. And during the later years of David O. McKay's presidency, when David O. McKay was sort of senile, Hubie Brown pulled a move to try and get the priesthood restored in, like, 68, 69. While some of the apostles were, like, out of town, he actually held a vote.

John Dehlin [02:16:57] The vote went through the. The priesthood would be given. And then a couple of the, like Carol B. Lee or a couple of them came back into town and scuttled the deal. So When David O. McKay dies, Joseph Fielding Smith becomes prophet. And guess what he does to Hubie Brown?

Dillan Conrad [02:17:15] Demotes him.

John Dehlin [02:17:16] Demotes him and kicks him out of the first president retracts it as a punishment for his liberal advocacy.

Dillan Conrad [02:17:22] That's what I feel like happened to

Liz Gunnell [02:17:23] for sure who was president when. In 1978, when it was Kimball. It was Kimball.

John Dehlin [02:17:29] Spencer B. Kimball.

Guest [02:17:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:17:30] Yeah. Not Joseph Ealing Smith, I was gonna say. Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [02:17:34] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:17:34] It's just also not Harold B. Lee, because they were more bigoted, frankly.

Liz Gunnell [02:17:39] No. It's super interesting to hear these stories. And similarly, with Hinckley being all about, I'm a Mormon, and then Russell M. Nelson coming in with his own agenda saying, no, that's a win for Satan. And it's interesting. He threw Huey.

Jillian Orr [02:17:56] Hugh.

Liz Gunnell [02:17:56] What's his name?

John Dehlin [02:17:57] Hugh B. Brown.

Liz Gunnell [02:17:58] Hugh B. Brown. Having this meeting when some people are out of town. It's just interesting to hear the inner politics of these old white men in their little offices. Like, you know, they all have their own agendas that they're pushing. And then when there's a new prophet, they're like, hey, the other prophet before me, all policy. I'm the one in charge now. It's all doctrine. It's just interesting to hear.

John Dehlin [02:18:23] Like, I don't know if you all have heard this, but right now, there's division in the Quorum of the twelve apostles about the LGBT policies. They're liberal apostles.

Dillan Conrad [02:18:31] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:18:32] And there's ones that are hardcore. There's not unanimity even on that issue.

Dillan Conrad [02:18:36] Well, who's the. The one in the apostleship that has

John Dehlin [02:18:39] a brother who is D. Todd Christofferson has a gay son. Tom Kristofferson.

Dillan Conrad [02:18:44] Oh, son. I thought there was also a brother.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] Sorry.

Dillan Conrad [02:18:46] Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [02:18:47] Sorry. Tom Kristofferson is D. Todd Kristofferson's brother.

Liz Gunnell [02:18:50] It'd be really helpful if God could just tell them all where he stood on LGBTQ just issues.

Dillan Conrad [02:18:58] Visit a meeting, policies, if you want to go over some policies.

John Dehlin [02:19:02] Yeah, it's just such a great point. Wouldn't it be great if there's a prophet that could actually talk to God and get the answer for us all?

Jillian Orr [02:19:09] If it's that confrontational, if it affects that many lives, you think it'd be kind of important.

John Dehlin [02:19:14] But it's also. It's also, again, something that the Mormon church leaders intentionally perpetuate this belief that they're, quote, special witnesses of Christ and talk to God and Jesus when they know they don't because they disagree with each other.

Jillian Orr [02:19:29] Yeah, it's true.

John Dehlin [02:19:30] Yeah, true. When. When does the priesthood get banned, get lifted? When enough of the apostles die so that the Quorum has unanimity, and then they Call it revelation.

Liz Gunnell [02:19:40] Yeah. It's like God is this high schooler being like, hey, I think this, but I'm gonna tell so and so something else. It's like God is saying two different things to all of these different prophets. Like, you'd think that if he was speaking to them, he would just say the one thing and they'd all agree. But they're all getting different answers from God, apparently.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] Yeah, yeah, it's a mess. It's cool that we got to talk about that some. I think that's really important.

Dillan Conrad [02:20:06] Definitely.

Does the Church Do Good in the World?

John Dehlin [02:20:08] All right, well, this. I think this is the last prompt, Right? The Mormon Church has done good in the world. So this is maybe. Liz, you have a good moment here. I think all of you do, but

Dillan Conrad [02:20:20] Mormon Church has done good in the world.

Dillan Conrad [02:20:22] Agreeers, please step forward.

Liz Gunnell [02:20:26] We all step forward.

Guest 1 [02:20:28] We do a lot of humanitarian aid. We give wheelchairs out to people and like third world nations. I mean, there's a lot of good we do. I would agree that. I would also say, you know, there's some things that other religions do better than us. The LDS Church does a great job helping out those who are needy.

Liz Gunnell [02:20:46] I think the church does do a lot of great humanitarian work. And a lot of the time growing up, it was like, what can we do for our neighborhood? What can we do for our church community? What can we do for our fellow ward members? They just preach a lot of service qualities, which is great. On the other hand, I think that. I mean, I hate to say they could do more, and that's the negative, but, like, with all of the money that they inherit from tithing, the Mormon Church requires its members give 10% of their income before taxes to the Mormon Church. And then they utilize that money to do things, you know, around the world, like build mall. But I think that they could do more with the money they're doing. Yes, they do a lot of good, but I think they could do even more good if they utilize that money better.

Guest [02:21:35] When I personally had a surgery, I had random members that I probably haven't even met from my church. They were leaving me gifts, they were leaving me notes, they were leaving me cards. Just get well soon. Nothing cute, but it's just the thought that counts. And I didn't even have family that would leave me things like that. They are just very thoughtful people and they're always thinking of the next guy.

Dillan Conrad [02:22:00] For especially the ex Mormons, would you

Dillan Conrad [02:22:02] guys say it's more of a net

Dillan Conrad [02:22:03] positive or a net negative?

Dillan Conrad [02:22:05] For me, it's gonna be more of A net positive. And I know that's kind of surprising to probably a lot of people here. I left the Mormon Church just a few years ago because I just, it didn't make me personally happy. I, I get to kind of sit here today in a little bit of a happy position just knowing that, like, I don't really feel like I have a lot of religious trauma to speak of about the, My, you know, my experience in the Mormon Church. I feel like I. When I went on my mission and I was called to Houston, Texas, I got to meet.

Dillan Conrad [02:22:40] Meet some amazing people. And the things that I taught in preach my gospel that spoke to me, that I still know to this day are true, are all of the things that I still keep in my life that I hold dear, that I associate, the friends that I have, the family that I, That I keep. Just all the connections that I have are within those truths that I hold dear. So for me, I'm going to go ahead and just say it's a net positive for me. I, I'm really thankful for that.

John Dehlin [02:23:08] So on the one hand, I know that there are ex Mormons that are going to be cringing, Dylan, that you chose to say positive things, and I end up saying some positive things too.

Dillan Conrad [02:23:18] I think even Jill Jillian went for net positive.

John Dehlin [02:23:21] I think that's coming.

Jillian Orr [02:23:23] Wait, don't spoil my part.

John Dehlin [02:23:26] Yeah, yeah, but I mean, I think it adds so much credibility. Like, I don't, I don't think we came off as angry, foaming at the mouth, rabid ex Mormons. And I'm just really glad we were able to acknowledge good. Even though there may be some who are like, why is he talking good right now?

Dillan Conrad [02:23:47] Yeah. I would say that my prayer was answered when it came to this experience because I wanted to be able to have a nuanced conversation with people to listen to, not talk over, to not get angry. Just to be able to. Just to sit in this space of different ideas and I don't know if I could use the word codify, because that'd be kind of funny. But like. No, I'm kidding. But just really, it couldn't have been a better experience for me and something that I really will never forget. Like I said before, and also at the time, it took everything out of me. When it was done, I was completely drained of energy.

Dillan Conrad [02:24:23] But I feel like it's because we truly gave it our all with our, our, our personal experience and our emotions, but never getting to the point, like you said, of, of getting angry or foaming at the mouth. But Just really letting people know how we felt and where we stood. And I think that's the main reason why this was released to the public is because it was, it was genuine. It was time to get this out there.

John Dehlin [02:24:46] I love that you got them all in there.

Dillan Conrad [02:24:48] I wish they would have like put a little, like, this is like City Creek in Salt Lake City and like little promotion on the screen.

Liz Gunnell [02:24:54] And I forget if I mentioned this specific statistic in here and it just wasn't mentioned, but. So they asked 10% of our income before taxes for tithing. And I think there was, there was a report that, that Walmart donates more of its profits to charity than the LDS Church. The LDS Church donates 1%. Shouldn't they be also donating 10% of their money as tithing? The humanitarian.

John Dehlin [02:25:21] I don't think 1%'s correct. I think that would be way, way, way too high.

Liz Gunnell [02:25:26] I think it may have been 0.08 or something like that.

John Dehlin [02:25:29] No, no. I mean, just up until just a couple years ago, it was like a teeny, tiny, tiny amount. And then it got a bunch of visibility and then they said like a billion dollars over like 20 years. But it's a teeny amount. And, and we've done episodes on this. They're counting like service hours and then multiplying them times like 21 or $22 an hour.

Liz Gunnell [02:25:51] What?

John Dehlin [02:25:51] Yeah, they're counting like member service. They're counting fast offerings.

Liz Gunnell [02:25:55] They're counting the free janitorial work that all of the members do.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] This is a whole thing. This is a whole thing. And I'll out my teaching missionary work.

Liz Gunnell [02:26:04] You know, then it's like.001% of their billions of dollars.

John Dehlin [02:26:09] And check out the widows might report because they actually talk about this in December Depth. But it, it's really disingenuous because it's, it's a teeny tiny fraction of the, of the annual income. And there's no way it's 1%.

Liz Gunnell [02:26:22] And it feels like such a, like I know that some Mormons would hear this argument and be like, you're complaining that they're not doing enough good when they're doing so much good and they're, they're doing humanitarian work. If they're doing less than 1%, imagine if they did 10, which is what they ask their members to do.

Guest [02:26:39] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [02:26:39] Why isn't tithing less than 1% sent.

John Dehlin [02:26:42] Yeah. And, and Jesus even said like, he talked about the widow's might, but he talked about proportional giving that where much is given, much is required. So a $250 billion organization should literally. That, by the way, bears Jesus's name, should literally be the most altruistic giving organization in the world. And they're not by a long shot.

Jillian Orr [02:27:04] Maybe we should join the church of Walmart.

Liz Gunnell [02:27:08] I'm down.

John Dehlin [02:27:09] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [02:27:09] I was gonna out myself and just say that you said something about even in the filming. I was like, oh, because you said we're supposed to give. It's like a policy to give 10% before taxes. I never gave 10% before taxes.

Jillian Orr [02:27:22] I gave more than.

Liz Gunnell [02:27:24] That's why you're gay.

Dillan Conrad [02:27:27] That's my illness.

Liz Gunnell [02:27:28] Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [02:27:29] That's why I can't join the eventual lawsuit if the. Because they're like, what, after taxes?

John Dehlin [02:27:36] Uh, no. We were all taught to pay them in grief.

Liz Gunnell [02:27:39] Since we're on the topic of tithing, I just have a funny story about it really quick. I remember being taught that if you pay your tithing, blessings will follow. And so many people would bear their testimony. I, I, I paid my tithing, and a week later, I got a new job. And it was like, because I paid my tithing, I got this new job. I remember I was, like, 18 or 19, and I was struggling with my belief in the church. And I was on the fence whether to pay my tithing or not one week. And I decided to not pay my tithing. Two, three days later, I got, like, a ton of new piano students. I'm a piano teacher. I got an influx of new piano students.

John Dehlin [02:28:16] Did you say F ton? Is that what you're gonna say?

Liz Gunnell [02:28:18] I have no idea.

Dillan Conrad [02:28:19] I felt that.

Jillian Orr [02:28:19] I felt it too.

Liz Gunnell [02:28:20] And fdr, I think I was. I got just, like, a ton of new piano students. I was like, if I had paid my tithing, I would have credited. Oh, I paid my tithing. That's why I got new piano students. I chose not to pay my tithing, and I still got the piano students. So it's like, maybe things just happen and we assign meaning.

Dillan Conrad [02:28:36] God wants us to be happy to things.

Liz Gunnell [02:28:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] I know so many ex Mormons that became way more wealthy after leaving the church than before. So the church wants it both ways, that you won't prosper unless you pay your tithing. But then if you do prosper after leaving the church, church, well, wealth is wickedness. And Jesus.

Dillan Conrad [02:28:55] That's why I know that I was never meant for religion. Because, like, he talked about, like, you know, do you want gross blessings or do you want net blessings? I'm like, I don't care. I'll get some net Blessings. I just wait till I get that paycheck to see exactly what I have to pay before taxes. Good God. Like, I would never.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] That's awesome. Okay, well, we're. I've only got a couple minutes left, so let's hear how it ends. When I was in middle school, my parents got divorced, and I think my life could have gone in a lot of directions at that point. And I remember one of my Mormon church leaders has pulled me aside, and he said, john, you're a star. And so many good Mormon adult leaders rallied around me, supported me, and provided me with an amazing youth experience. And then I went on to serve a mission in Guatemala. I learned a foreign language. I spent two years in a developing country.

John Dehlin [02:29:54] And then just in my psychology training, people need identity, meaning, purpose, morality, a sense of spirituality, resolution about the afterlife and friends and community. And one of the things that I regret is I've spent so much time trying to create something secular community after being kicked out of the Mormon Church, and I have not been able to do anything like what the Mormon Church has been able to do. So until secular people are able to create communities that provide all these. Those things to the secular people, I think religions like the Mormon Church are going to continue to have an important place.

Jillian Orr [02:30:29] Yeah, I could say that a lot of the opportunities that I experienced, a lot of the mentors, a lot of the people that helped the village that raised me was within my church experience. And so my mission, I had positive experiences. I met a lot of incredible people, built a lot of good connections, but I don't know that. I mean, I know, yeah, there's humanitarian stuff, but I don't know if you can weigh that to the youth suicide in the LGBTQ community. I don't know if we can weigh that. It's just hard to weigh those things out of, like, is the good better than the negative because of the spiritual trauma that it does cost, the. The emotional damage it does within families, within individuals. So I don't know that I could actually say which it does more of because the damage is so severe. But I know that there are positive experiences.

Liz Gunnell [02:31:12] I can't have conversations like this with my family. It's not a way we speak with each other. We can't have this open dialogue of what we disagree about. And, you know, maybe other families are different, but my family is very, very Mormon in that way, where very reactive and uncomfortable topics don't go well. And if I want to talk about the history or people of lgbtq, it's not a conversation I can have. So having this conversation with all of you today almost was, like, a substitute for that.

Jillian Orr [02:31:42] So you need him to come to, like, family dinner?

Liz Gunnell [02:31:45] That'd be great.

Dillan Conrad [02:31:46] I'm not cheap. Well, so that concludes our episode of

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Dillan Conrad [02:31:50] Mormons versus Ex Mormons.

Dillan Conrad [02:31:52] If you guys want to embrace, shake hands, hug. You guys need to do. And then I gotta go to the

John Dehlin [02:31:57] bathroom, and people are hugging. Liz gives a big old hug to Cardin. All right, well, that was it. That's the. That's the video. We covered it. We played the full thing.

Liz Gunnell [02:32:16] What a journey.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] What a journey. Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [02:32:19] They cut out the trust volume.

John Dehlin [02:32:20] You'll really enjoy this discussion with author Dave Butler. I have the opportunity to sit down. Greg Matson does a surprise appearance. Okay, well, what were we saying?

Dillan Conrad [02:32:31] They cut out the trust fall attempt. I'm sure Jubilee cringed too hard. They're just like, we can't get.

John Dehlin [02:32:35] That was where Carden jumps up in

Jillian Orr [02:32:37] front of the camera.

Liz Gunnell [02:32:38] What segment was that? Was that at the end?

John Dehlin [02:32:40] The very end, and tell people what he did?

Dillan Conrad [02:32:43] Oh, he just got up right in the middle, went, trust fall. And I knew that he definitely didn't trust himself to fall backwards because no one got out of there. Their. Their stools. It was just like, not the time, dude. Not the time.

John Dehlin [02:32:54] Yeah. I mean, so any other reactions? Now that you've seen the whole thing, is there anything that stood out to you as things that were left off, things that should have been included? Overall impressions, we'll just go around. Liz, we'll start with you.

Liz Gunnell [02:33:11] Sure. It was really fun to watch. Like I said, it was a journey. Last impressions. I definitely just feel as if we did a good job. I feel like we held our own.

John Dehlin [02:33:26] Do you feel like we won? Did the ex Mormons win?

Liz Gunnell [02:33:29] Of course. Yeah, of course we won.

John Dehlin [02:33:31] Did the ex Mormons win?

Jillian Orr [02:33:32] Yeah, I think we came out on a net positive with that one.

Liz Gunnell [02:33:35] It's codified. It's codified.

Dillan Conrad [02:33:39] Seems a bit disingenuous.

John Dehlin [02:33:41] Did you think. Think we. We won, too?

Dillan Conrad [02:33:43] I. For definitely, yes.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] And is that. How do we know if we're just biased? I mean, honestly, Carden told me he thought we did really well.

Liz Gunnell [02:33:53] Really?

John Dehlin [02:33:54] He did? And. And also the. The woman, Bella, say what Bella said.

Jillian Orr [02:34:00] Yeah, I talked to Bella afterwards. Oh, she's so great. I've invited her.

John Dehlin [02:34:03] We all went to sushi. We all went to sushi.

Liz Gunnell [02:34:05] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:34:05] She came to lunch with us.

Liz Gunnell [02:34:06] She was the only Mormon that came to lunch with us.

Jillian Orr [02:34:08] She came and sat down with us, and she's like, guys, I Kind of wish I could have swapped over to

Liz Gunnell [02:34:14] your side in the middle of that.

Jillian Orr [02:34:15] She's like, I was kind of embarrassed by some things.

John Dehlin [02:34:17] Yeah, she did.

Dillan Conrad [02:34:18] I think we just spoke with our whole hearts and really just didn't let too much just stupid stuff get in the way of just speaking positively and with nuance. I think that's what they really wanted with this episode is the ones before that. It was missing that secret ingredient. It was missing that special sauce. And, you know, I honestly really enjoyed watching that. That was definitely a net positive for me. Like, no joke. I really liked it.

Liz Gunnell [02:34:50] There were so many moments where I got chills from what Jillian said. John, Dylan, all of you. Where I was just moved.

John Dehlin [02:34:57] You too, Lizard.

Dillan Conrad [02:34:59] Liz, you were amazing. That sweater.

Liz Gunnell [02:35:01] But also your words up in my game. That was sweater.

Dillan Conrad [02:35:05] I missed the spatula. But it's.

Liz Gunnell [02:35:08] She's there in spirit. No, I was just like. I was proud to be an ex Mormon. I was proud to be there. And I'm happy they included that thing at the end about my family, which was my intention to just be able to talk about this kind of stuff without it blowing up and wrecking family dynamics. You know, it was just nice to have such an open dialogue about these issues.

Dillan Conrad [02:35:32] Mm.

Jillian Orr [02:35:33] I think it was really fun to watch again and just, like, have those moments and, like, see what it looked like and just watch different reactions and to relive it again. Because I will say that it was. There was a lot of anxiety beforehand in the moment of it. It was so. It's so heated because you want to share your opinion, but you want to be respectful at the same time. And you also want to, like, share the platform with your team. And so it was really. There was so much energy. I remember every time we had to go back to the spotlight, I had to, like, do jumping jacks. I'm like, get the energy out.

Liz Gunnell [02:36:02] You were, like, doing lunges. I was, Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:36:04] I was like. Because I just had to get it out because there's just so much. Just so much anxiety and energy to it. But something. There were a couple things that I'm actually grateful they took out. I think some of the mansplaining from Cardin was really frustrating to me, and I think they took out a huge chunk of that, which I think did play to the benefit of hearing both sides. We were able to hear more and able to kind of follow the arguments a little bit better.

John Dehlin [02:36:29] Yeah. Cause I felt like he was interjecting way too much constantly. Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:36:33] And the mediator had to cut him off multiple times.

John Dehlin [02:36:36] I started cutting him off, and maybe I was doing that too, but I just. It.

Liz Gunnell [02:36:40] You were not.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] I think Cardin. I think Cardin came off way better in the cut.

Guest [02:36:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:36:44] Than he did in person.

Dillan Conrad [02:36:46] That's what I was trying to say. Like, a couple prompts back is that they did a service to him. Cause he really could have stepped into shit.

Liz Gunnell [02:36:53] I mean, the whole. Sorry. The whole episode is less than an hour, and we were filming for three hours. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:59] Yeah. And I. I don't say that meaning Cardon any harm. It's just he. He. He was. I think he was super stressed. I think he was defensive, and I think he. He felt like he had to argue every single point.

Dillan Conrad [02:37:10] Yeah, he does say some really cringy stuff in the masturbation prompt, though.

Liz Gunnell [02:37:14] He was like, the Voldemort of Mormonism is in the building. I got to bring my A game. I gotta be on time.

Jillian Orr [02:37:21] And I'm sure he felt the same pressure that we did, like, that he had to represent something really big. And so I think I can understand the anxiety. I can understand, like, there was times I was sitting next to him and his hands were shaking, and there was times that he needed water and we had to pause filming. And so I did feel a lot of empathy towards him in that aspect that we all felt pressure. And I'm sure he felt a lot of the weight on him too, and it just came out in a different way, but understanding, you know, seeing. I think they did do him a service of just how much he was going at it.

Jillian Orr [02:37:53] And it felt very hard for us, for me at least, to be able to speak and to talk and to be clear, I mean, you can kind of see it, at least in the LGBTQ section, that he kept trying to cut me off and cut me off, and I was like, no, stop. You need to listen. Because there was one that I was hoping would have made it, and it didn't make it. There was a section. There's a part. And the part was when they ask us, are Mormons misunderstood? That's actually a question that didn't make it into this at all. And they asked, are Mormons misunderstood to the world?

Jillian Orr [02:38:20] And we all answered and sat. You know, everyone sat down and had their responses. And at the end, Liz asked him, cardin, I have a question for you. Do you think ex Mormons are misunderstood?

Liz Gunnell [02:38:31] Oh, my goodness. I forgot.

Jillian Orr [02:38:32] Do you remember that? Yeah.

Dillan Conrad [02:38:33] Director's cut.

Jillian Orr [02:38:35] He then goes and talks and talks and talks, talks and goes around. I don't. I Couldn't even tell you what he said because he talked for so long that I stopped. And I was like, I'm sorry, I don't understand your. Your response. Can you tell us your response again and condense it? And then he looks at Liz and says, what was your question?

Liz Gunnell [02:38:53] Yeah.

Jillian Orr [02:38:54] And I was like, you just responded for how long? And didn't remember the question.

Liz Gunnell [02:38:58] It was the most simple question, too. Like, because he had said earlier, right? I mean, you kind of just said it like, mormons are misunderstanding. Or he said, I think everyone is misunderstood. He said in an earlier topic. And so when it was asked later, I was like, hey, so if everyone is misunderstood, does that include us angry anti Mormon, ex Mormons, you know? And then he just talked in circles for, like, five minutes. And you were like, did you answer her question?

Jillian Orr [02:39:23] Yeah, just to, like, bring it back. Because I just feel that a lot of these answers are just being so around the bush that it didn't get to the direction. And so that one was cut out. So there's these moments that I feel like we're missing in this that I know we experienced, but for the most part, I feel that what was produced and what was shown was pretty accurate to my experience with it all. And at the end of it, they asked us and they missed. They cut some of it out where they said, can we all talk about your experience with this? Like, everyone share what you experienced.

Jillian Orr [02:39:52] And something that I had said at the end was that I respected Bella because she was the one that wasn't on either extreme, but was honest, straightforward, and listened to her gut and said just honestly how she felt, whether it supported this side or supported that side. And so that was like, my biggest takeaway was, trust your gut and don't let any person or entity tell you what you should be responding to.

Dillan Conrad [02:40:14] And then another thing that they cut that I remembered was when Kwaku spoke in the final prompt about how it's a very quick road to bigotry. But he said that without realizing that everyone in the ex Mormon side did see it as a net positive. And then he decided to take that back. I think that the editors were probably like, oh, we probably don't want to have that moment, because it just doesn't make him come off very genuine because he didn't listen. Like, we did say it was a net positive, but he went into something about bigotry and hate, and that was like, we don't need that. Because he was wrong.

Jillian Orr [02:40:51] You're right, he was. Because it was to my response that's why I gasped when I was done. They didn't put that in because he responded to mine where I said, I can't say whether it's a positive or a negative. He said, well, doesn't that mean that you're becoming a bigot and that that's just fueling hate? And I was like, no, it's not fueling hate. And then this is actually an example of an analogy I gave where he was like, no, don't you see? You're getting hate. You're just forming hate towards everything. And I said, no, this is how I see it, is that the church is like having a father who takes you fishing, who spends time with you, who puts a roof over your head, gives you food.

Jillian Orr [02:41:25] But he's abusive. He's verbally abusive, he's physically abusive. Can you tell me, is it a net positive? Is it a net negative? Is it better to be. To have a father that does that or to not have a father? I can't tell you, but I can tell you that that's been my experience is that there's a lot of positive, but there's a lot of negative. And he's like, but you just said it was a net negative. And all of us wrote like, no, we didn't. So, no.

Dillan Conrad [02:41:46] And then you also said that the church sees LGBT people as a pet,

Liz Gunnell [02:41:52] as a stray dog. You had so many moments that were cut.

Dillan Conrad [02:41:55] I really do think that they wanted to give the Mormon side more of, like, a sure footing because it was.

John Dehlin [02:42:03] Let's get it on film.

Liz Gunnell [02:42:04] It was powerful.

John Dehlin [02:42:04] Let's get it on film.

Jillian Orr [02:42:06] So, yeah, go ahead. I'm trying to remember what led into it. It was Cardan. I remember that I was responding to him.

John Dehlin [02:42:10] Well, it was a whole cancer thing.

Guest 1 [02:42:12] Thing.

John Dehlin [02:42:12] And, you know, it's an illness.

Liz Gunnell [02:42:14] And I think you were talking about how lgbtq, because they're saying, oh, yeah, the church accepts them.

Dillan Conrad [02:42:20] And you're like, well, we have websites dedicated to them.

Liz Gunnell [02:42:23] It's like the LGBTQ are like a stray dog, where they're.

Jillian Orr [02:42:26] Yes, that's right. That's right. So, yeah, they were saying how we're so welcome. And, you know, even Timber's like, I feel so welcome. I love being there. Everyone's supportive. And I was like, yeah, well, my experience personally of being an LGBTQ member in the church is that. That we're treated like a stray dog, that we, you know, they publish and they show that. Like, oh, we fed them, we love them, we all gather around and we support them and we pet them. We pet them. Good boy, good girl. You're so great. You're so nice.

Jillian Orr [02:42:55] But at the end of the day, there's not a spot at the table. You can't live in the home with them. There's no space for you here. And we don't understand why. And it just adds a lot of confusion because. Because, yes, everyone looks and sees how everyone loves the stray dog, but at the end of the day, you're not part of the family, and you're not

Liz Gunnell [02:43:13] allowed in the house.

Jillian Orr [02:43:14] Yeah, you're not allowed in the house. That's been my experience and a lot of others who have agreed with that.

John Dehlin [02:43:20] I think that was probably the mic drop moment of the whole thing.

Liz Gunnell [02:43:23] I can't believe they didn't include it.

John Dehlin [02:43:24] I don't know what they were thinking. Maybe there are technical problems. I don't know.

Liz Gunnell [02:43:29] Yeah. And the abusive father analogy as well was so spot on. You had so many great moments. Like, your metaphors and analogies were just like.

Jillian Orr [02:43:37] Yes.

Liz Gunnell [02:43:38] And we didn't get to see so many.

Jillian Orr [02:43:40] I'm surprised. I didn't even realize they put them in.

Dillan Conrad [02:43:41] I think maybe one of the main reasons with that, even though they were such amazing moments, is because middle ground is meant to be that nuanced conversation of balance. And we just killed it, like, it was so good. And they really wanted it to be, like, equal, because there's gonna be so many different people watching this and having that experience and putting themselves in Kwaku's position or Cardan's or mine or Jillian's. Everyone wants to be able to see themselves in this, and I think they're going to be able to be given a chance, but we got to experience that, and that is what made it all so worth it.

Liz Gunnell [02:44:21] Can we see now that it's been a few hours since it dropped? What's the view count now?

John Dehlin [02:44:25] That's a great question. So as of right now, now, The Jubilee Mormons vs Ex Mormons video has 59,000.

Guest [02:44:35] Okay.

Liz Gunnell [02:44:36] It's doubled since we last checked.

John Dehlin [02:44:37] Yeah. I mean, if it hits 100,000 in the first 12 hours, that's quite good.

Dillan Conrad [02:44:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:43] At least compared to my videos. So I hope it. I hope it goes viral, and I

Jillian Orr [02:44:48] hope they can catch this one, too.

Dillan Conrad [02:44:50] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:44:51] We'll get this out in a couple days. Speaking to you said Bella did great. I again will say that I thought Kwaku came off a lot better than I thought he might.

Jillian Orr [02:45:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:01] I think he behaved a lot better than he has on Midnight Mormons. And world radio in the past, it seems like he's gone through some changes. I think he said to Margi and I, off screen, that he might. That this might represent a moment where he starts to move away from the apologetic, you know, Mormon apologist, media biz.

Guest [02:45:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:25] But it just seems like life over the past year maybe has taught him a thing or two because he's kind of moderated.

Jillian Orr [02:45:32] I would agree with that, because I, again, had never seen any of their content until I went home. And the next day I just watched their views, their opinions of you, and I felt that it was so belittling. And I felt like it was such, like, cyber bullying on your end that I was so shocked to see how he was then representing himself with us, that I was like, wow, either he's come a long way or he understands the seriousness of this. But I thought that he carried himself a lot better than I had seen in the past, which I love and respect, because I think that everyone should have the opportunity to represent themselves better and that we can. We don't have to hold people to who they were.

Liz Gunnell [02:46:09] Mm, that's lovely. Cause I did feel there was a moment, I think, when we were talking about, are Mormons or ex Mormons misunderstood? They cut it. But I had said something along the lines of I was thinking about my family and how ex Mormons are viewed as angry and are, you know, kind of have this negative connotation. And I had said. And I locked eyes with Kwaku and I was like, you know, why is it I get angry as an ex Mormon?

Jillian Orr [02:46:36] Sure.

Liz Gunnell [02:46:36] Because I think, why is it working for you and not for me? And we locked eyes.

John Dehlin [02:46:40] That was a good moment.

Dillan Conrad [02:46:41] And he.

Liz Gunnell [02:46:42] His face, and it seemed very genuine. It felt like he was really listening to me and empathizing. And I just saw. When I said, why is it working for you and not me? His face kind of, like, almost, like, broke a little bit. And I could tell that it hit him and he heard it. So I definitely saw a change in Kwaku, like, versus some of the content of his. I've seen before. And then his presence here in this debate, for lack of a better word, it definitely seemed different.

John Dehlin [02:47:08] Yeah. Yeah. And Quaker was quite warm to Margi and I after the show. And then Carden came to me and he's like, I want you on. I want you on Word Radio.

Liz Gunnell [02:47:18] He said that to everybody.

John Dehlin [02:47:19] He's like, come, come on Ward Radio. I'll fly out to LA and. And I'm considering it. We've been Texting a little bit. Like, I was really grateful just to the point you made, I think, Jillian. I was really grateful that we were all in the same room because, I don't know, I had a lot of anger and probably some hatred for those guys. Putting us all in the same room and then having us have a dialogue really took all that energy out.

Jillian Orr [02:47:41] It brings in the humanity.

John Dehlin [02:47:42] It totally did. And it made me wish that maybe here in Mormon Story Studios, we could recreate kind of a. A middle ground experience, because it really was kind of healing, you know, and it felt good. And I even left with the. With the. A better relationship and maybe some optimism towards Cardin and Kwaku moderating their hate speech towards me and other people. So I, you know, I was. I was grateful for it.

Liz Gunnell [02:48:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:11] Yeah. I don't know. I'm Carter, and I'm open to dialogue. If we can set some ground rules where you guys won't lie or use hate speech, you know, I'm open to it. Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [02:48:24] I am curious to hear their take on the episode, if they definitely do a reaction video of their own.

John Dehlin [02:48:28] Oh, they will. They probably are.

Liz Gunnell [02:48:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:32] Yeah. And then I just. I just wanted to say that, yeah, we won, but can you imagine having to represent the church's position? So impossible. They. They don't even do it. The first presidency, quorum of the 12, they don't grant media requests because it's. How. How do you. How do you stand up for the bigotry and the cringiness of. Of modern Mormonism?

Liz Gunnell [02:48:57] Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. Like we were saying earlier, with the fact that they would probably not say anything or most of what they said over the podium. You know, I think it's. It shows that I don't even know what I'm saying.

Jillian Orr [02:49:11] It just.

Liz Gunnell [02:49:12] Yeah, that's all I got. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:49:15] All right, well, any final words? This was amazing. I love you all. I was so honored to be with all of you. I thought you guys were amazing. Amazing. And I was humbled to be with you. Any final thoughts? Any final words to the audience?

Dillan Conrad [02:49:29] Yeah. With this experience, it was just my first time being able to be a part of something like this. I actually haven't seen anything related to Kwaku or Cardan or any other content. I just saw them as people. The way that they showed up at that discussion. And there were times where Cardan really gave me the cringe and other times where I felt the humanity likewise with other people. But I was really glad that I could come in as my authentic self and that Jubilee chose me to represent my feelings and associations with the topic, and I had a really, really good experience, and I'm really grateful that I could do this today as well. Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:50:13] Thanks, Dylan. Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [02:50:14] Yeah. I mean, same. It was definitely an honor to be with all three of you on that. Just such a. Such an. Such a special day. I really felt like it was historic.

Dillan Conrad [02:50:27] It just felt generational is what you said.

Liz Gunnell [02:50:29] It just felt really special. I was very honored, and it was cathartic, and it was. It was great. So, I mean, kudos to Jubilee for putting something like this on. To let ex Mormons and Mormons specifically talk about these issues. It was just a beautiful experience. I loved it.

Jillian Orr [02:50:47] I think the biggest thing I want to say with all of this is that going back to one of the questions is, like, are Mormons misunderstood? Are ex Mormons misunderstood? Is John de Lynn misunderstood? Is Mormon Stories podcast misunderstood? Is Jillian Orr misunderstood? Yes, everybody is. No one is fully going to get their full intentions across. No one is fully going to share what they, deep down feel or experience. And those things are gonna consistently change as we get more information. And I think, for me, the biggest part of all of this is that we can all get out there and share our thoughts and be a voice for one side or another.

Jillian Orr [02:51:19] But at the end of the day, everyone gets to pick what they feel is right for them and what they want to follow and what they want to believe and whatever makes them the happiest and that we just give each other compassion and that we just come to the table, bring what we have, and then cherish what we have that's right for us. Like, that's really the biggest takeaway from all of this is for me.

John Dehlin [02:51:39] Love it. Yeah. Yep. Well, it was a beautiful time. I'm. I'm grateful to have been a part of it, and I hope everyone liked it. Please recommend the original Jubilee video to everyone and their cat and their dog. Post it, everyone's social media. Like it, comment on it, subscribe to the Jubilee channel. Like, do whatever you can to make this episode go viral. Dear viewers and listeners, I know Cara Barrel Nuance Ho is going to be doing a reaction video to this. We always love Kara. Check out what she's doing. Yeah. And while you're at it, feel free to subscribe to our YouTube channel as well. And anything y' all want to say about just the what's up for you going forward in your lives or anything, or. I mean, you'll be getting your egot soon, right? Liz, Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, right, Tony?

Liz Gunnell [02:52:32] Yeah, definitely. I'm shooting for. For all of them at the same.

John Dehlin [02:52:36] I mean, you're talented enough.

Liz Gunnell [02:52:38] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:52:38] To get an ego.

Jillian Orr [02:52:39] Get it on the screens.

John Dehlin [02:52:40] Can you tell people how to follow you?

Jillian Orr [02:52:42] Sure.

Liz Gunnell [02:52:43] I live in Los Angeles. I'm an actress, and I sometimes talk about ex Mormonism. So if you want to follow me, my Instagram is Liz Gunnell. Two N's, two L's, and I'm Lord Liz on Tick Tock.

John Dehlin [02:52:56] And it's fun stuff.

Jillian Orr [02:52:58] Thanks.

Liz Gunnell [02:52:58] I play piano. I post some piano videos sometimes.

Dillan Conrad [02:53:00] She's really good.

Liz Gunnell [02:53:02] And I teach piano.

John Dehlin [02:53:03] Yeah.

Liz Gunnell [02:53:04] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:53:05] All right, Liz. What's up for you, Dylan?

Dillan Conrad [02:53:08] Oh, yeah, I don't really do social media too much. I do have an Instagram and it is Dylan Conrad. D, I, L, L, A N in the video. They're spelling it different, but that's fine. Whatever. But I just, if. Yeah, if you want to reach out through Instagram or whatever, that's totally cool. I love having conversations like that. This. And just getting to know people.

John Dehlin [02:53:30] All right, thanks, Dylan. All right, Jillian.

Jillian Orr [02:53:33] I'm on Tik Tok Instagram, Jillian. Oreo. Like, the cookie is my Tik Tok. I had to check. I was like, is that what it is? But Julian or O rr, that's my full thing. I. Right now I'm loving going and speaking public speaking, going into companies and organizations and empowering people both on, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion, as well as empowering and making decisions in your life. That's something that attaches.

Guest [02:53:55] Just.

Jillian Orr [02:53:55] I love doing and working with organizations, but this has been fun. I just love moving forward and seeing what life brings. And hopefully one day I will own a Shetland pony. That's the goal in life, is own a Shetland pony. That's where I'm moving forward. I'm moving forward.

John Dehlin [02:54:12] All right, well, thanks again, everyone, and thanks to you viewers and listeners for joining us. We hope you enjoyed the show. Sharon. It. Be kind, be kind to each other. Be good to each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care and thank you, Jubilee. Thank you so much for doing a Jubilee. Y' all did a great job. You did a huge service to our community. So Jubilee, middle ground, all the staff, thank you so much for what you guys did. We really appreciate it. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.