Introducing the Guest Bishops

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 2, 2024, and we're excited to have a follow on to yesterday's historic Mormon Stories interview. Yesterday we interviewed Bishop Nick Jones and his amazing wife Amanda. And it's already gotten, I don't know, 60,000 views in less than 24 hours. It's definitely one of the most popular Mormon themed episodes we've ever done. And, and in that episode where we talked about Bishop Nick Jones resigning as a Mormon bishop from the pulpit, which was kind of a historic thing that happened, I think December of 2023, we decided that, that.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And this was after my good friend Bo, who you're about to meet again on Mormon Stories. Under his recommendation, we thought it'd be super cool to bring a panel of Mormon bishops. And when I say Mormon bishops, I mean ex bishops. But in Mormonism, there's the saying, once a bishop, always a bishop. So these are all still Mormon bishops. They're just not currently serving as bishops. But we're bringing a panel together of Mormon bishops to talk about their experiences as bishops, which is super cool. I do want to note a couple quick, interesting things for those who have never been Mormon. A Mormon bishop is like a priest in a Catholic church or like a pastor.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] A Mormon bishop is the leader of a congregation of, let's just say 3, 400 people, depending on the size of the ward, which is the name for a congregation. And normally a Mormon bishop serves for five years. And so the other thing I'll just add is Nick mentioned yesterday something that was sort of groundbreaking, that at least two stake presidents and five bishops have reached out to him saying they no longer believe that the church is true, but they're acting as, as stake presidents and bishops anyway.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] That is definitely my experience. I get reached out to at least monthly by Mormon bishop or stake president, say they no longer believe, but they feel stuck in their position. And last year on Mormon Stories, we broke ground because we had two interviews with Mormon bishops who were currently serving as Mormon bishops when they came on Mormon Stories to say they no longer believed and to tell their story. And I think this epidemic of Mormon bishops, from the church's standpoint, this epidemic of Mormon bishops and stake presidents and top leaders losing their faith while they're serving in their callings, it's just going to keep continuing.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] And we want to help the church create a safe place for these leaders and their families and for the congregations. So that's all I'm going To say now, what I want to really quickly do is introduce to you, reintroduce to you, my dear friend Bo Euler. Bo was in Mormon Stories at least once with Sane Ciali Interview. Bo was Carolyn Pearson's bishop in Oakland just a few years back. He's brilliant, he's smart, he's a good hearted guy. And this was Beau's idea. And he's going to kind of lead today and then I'm going to kind of run the board and jump in occasionally. But Bo, Bo, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Beau Oyler [00:03:14] Thanks, John. It's good to be back. It's great, great to see you.

Nick Jones [00:03:17] Yeah.

Rob Gorman [00:03:17] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [00:03:17] And thanks for putting this together. It's always fun to be able to share stories and learn from each other.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] My pleasure.

Beau Oyler [00:03:23] Yeah, I think this could be a good conversation. And where this started really was with Nick and him and Amanda just being brave to be who they are and live their values. And as he shared his values over the pulpit and stepped down and did what he felt was right for himself, it just got me thinking about my experience as bishop. And although it's been six or seven years since I was released, it's still very important to me and very dear to my heart. It was a life changing experience to serve as bishop for five years.

Beau Oyler [00:04:00] And so I reached out to you and just said, yeah, I was like, john, let's get a group of bishops together and let's have this conversation. What is it like to be a bishop and how does that happen and what did we learn from it? And if we could do it differently today, how would we do that? And so, you know, that's what we're going to set out to do. And so I'd love for each of us to introduce ourselves. I'll start like John said, I'm Beau Euler. I am from the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area. I served as Bishop from 2012 to 2017 in the Walnut Creek 2nd Ward in the Oakland, California stake.

Beau Oyler [00:04:35] And I was Carolyn Pearson's bishop. She was just a like a motherly guide to me as a young bishop. She called me Bishop Bow. That was kind of my name that stuck in the stake. I was very young. I was 33 when I was called to be bishop. I was in the bishopric before that.

Beau Oyler [00:04:53] I served the full five years and currently I serve in the Young Men's Presidency or the Young Men's Organization in my ward. I have now moved from the Bay Area to Salt Lake City and I teach a very in the Young Men's. My role is to teach a more expansive view of spirituality to the young men.

Beau Oyler [00:05:17] And so I enjoy doing that. And I would say also, I kind of want to set my intention for being here today on Mormon Stories. I know Mormon Stories can be somewhat of a lightning rod, and I fully recognize that. And I participate in the Faith Matters community. I also participate in the Open Stories and Mormon Stories community, and I love both. And for me, I see my faith community as a tent with absolutely no walls.

Beau Oyler [00:05:43] And so what my intention today is to share what my experience was and how I learned and grew during my experience of being a bishop, but also to be able to speak to those who are currently serving as a bishop and be able to share some of the things that I wish I had known and even some of the ways that I've grown since being a bishop. And looking back on those five years, you know, if I could do it again, how would I do things differently? And if that's helpful to anyone out there today, that is having that experience, the bishop experience, wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Wouldn't it be amazing if there was, like, this underground network of Mormon bishops that shared this episode to give them some training they would otherwise not receive?

Beau Oyler [00:06:26] It would be the most training they ever received during their entire time as bishop.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] That's awesome.

Rob Gorman [00:06:34] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [00:06:34] So over to you, Nick.

Nick Jones [00:06:37] Hello, I'm Nick Jones. Many of you watched the podcast yesterday, so you, you know a little bit about me. I live in Brandon, Mississippi. My wife and I have five children, and I'm in the construction world. That's my line of work, particularly hardwood flooring business. I was called to be bishop when I was 39 years old. I served for two and a half years, and I recently resigned as a bishop on December 31st.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] Yeah, last month.

Nick Jones [00:07:09] Last month. So in a nutshell, that's who I am. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me, guys.

Beau Oyler [00:07:16] Thanks for joining us. Let's see. Jed.

Jedd Kassing [00:07:22] Hi. Yeah, my name is Jed Kassing. I served as a bishop in Riverton, Utah, from 2012 to 2018 for a total of a little over six years.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Tell people where Riverton is.

Jedd Kassing [00:07:35] Riverton's in the southwest Valley or the southwest corner of Salt Lake Valley. So about, I don't know, 30 minutes from downtown Salt Lake. Very, very Mormon, heavily Mormon population out there and still. Still see the church. Actually. Parking lot's pretty full in that neck of the wood, so I don't know that the Exodus has quite hit that area as much as some others, but I was 36 years old when I was called to be bishop, and turned 42 right before they released me. Served as a counselor before that for four years. So spent a good almost 11 years up on the stand. And there's a lot that comes with that. You miss a lot of stuff being up on the stand with your family and there's some hard things part of that.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] But without your family, right?

Jedd Kassing [00:08:32] Without my family. Yeah. Just, you know, my daughter, I have two daughters and they were 2 and 5 when I got called as a counselor and 14 and 17 when I got released finally as bishop. So I'm, you know, you miss a large chunk of their life and we'll get into that more. But, you know, my intention for being here today would be just to share some insights and stories and, and hopefully to help the church see that bishops in a, in a lot of ways are left on an island to try to hold together a lot of, a lot of different moving pieces and, and you really don't get any help.

Jedd Kassing [00:09:06] So I hope there's some progress in that, that we can help some bishops that are currently serving and, and help bishops who are losing their faith to know it's okay as well. There's, there's no real right way to do it. You follow your heart and do what you can. So glad to be here. Thank you for the opportunity.

Beau Oyler [00:09:23] Thanks, Chad. Robin,

Rob Gorman [00:09:27] good morning. Rob Gorman here. I served as a bishop in the Silverdale, Washington stake in the third ward of that stake. That town is across the Puget Sound from Seattle in Washington state. I served as Bishop from 1999 to 2006. 7.

Rob Gorman [00:09:47] The math will give you eight years, typically longer than. Or longer than the typical assignment in that. In that calling. And we'll probably talk about this later. I was an active duty submarine officer with the Navy and I had just transferred from Hawaii about two months before I was called. And that provided an interesting set of circumstances when you're leading an organization, particularly a spiritual organization of people that you don't know very well.

Rob Gorman [00:10:21] The intention that I have today has been voiced largely, I will add to that, that I think it's important that people admit, I think that they understand this, but I intend to be overt, that these people serving as bishops are just men in the same struggle that the congregation members are.

Rob Gorman [00:10:43] And although there is some setting apart and some status and maybe some expectation with keys and so forth, that they're really just men trying to make successful goes of their marriages and raising their children and their careers. And then you add this other load to it, and it's fairly extraordinary.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] Can I just add, Rob that for those of you who are Mormon stories nerd super fans, you'll remember Jerry and Julie Johnson that we interviewed. Weren't you Jerry and Julie Johnson's stake president or bishop or something?

Rob Gorman [00:11:26] Jerry and Julie were in the ward. They moved into the ward when I was bishop. So you brought up something I didn't mention. When I was. I was a bishop for eight years, then I was on the high council for four, and then immediately into the stake presidency, I was the first counselor for nine. And Jerry, Julie and I worked together throughout that. When I was in the stake presidency, Jerry was my executive secretary, helped me arrange things and traveled with me as I went around the state. You know, we work together quite a lot.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] These are my Kitsap homies, so I gotta give them a shout out. Also, you'll remember viewers, listeners, super nerds, Kelly and Heather Lang. He was the, you know, submarine commander. And Heather's amazing. And their sons. This is also same crew, right?

Rob Gorman [00:12:16] Yeah, same group of people. Kelly was the ward mission leader when I was bishop, and then when I was in the stake presidency, he was still the ward bishop leader. He did that for quite a while. He was good with people like that. And he and I are cut from much of the same cloth. We're both nuclear engineers driving submarines, steely eyed killers of the deep, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Were you ever on a submarine?

Rob Gorman [00:12:43] Absolutely. I spent 22 years in submarines.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] Okay.

Rob Gorman [00:12:45] I was on four different ships.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Nice.

Rob Gorman [00:12:47] And I have lots of good sea stories. No time to.

Jedd Kassing [00:12:52] All right, Very cool.

Beau Oyler [00:12:54] All right, thanks for introducing yourselves. So I think that it may be helpful to do a couple of things before we jump in. Number one, I just want to recognize that, as usual, here we are, five men and only men in the room, discussing church things. And so there are no female voices in this conversation.

Lack of Women's Voices in Church Leadership

Beau Oyler [00:13:18] There's no representation outside of our pool of male voices and male perspectives. And I just want to simply recognize that that is because of the way that the structure is and the way that the patriarchy is. And so as we collect bishops, it's really the only way to have this conversation as bishops. And it's not because we're not open to other voices and other perspectives and certainly want those.

Beau Oyler [00:13:45] But the purpose of this is to give perspective as a bishop and from those who have had the experience of bishop. Secondly, I think it would be helpful to dive in a little bit of how a bishop is called to serve and do that through first person experience. So, Rob, before we were jumping in, you had shared a little bit about how you were Called to be bishop. Would love for you to dive into that and share your experience.

How Each Bishop Was Called to Serve

Rob Gorman [00:14:16] Okay, thank you. So I do get to tell a little bit of a sea story. I'm happy to do that. I was assigned to the USS Batfish in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. I was the engineer officer on that, the person responsible for the reactor plant and all that.

Rob Gorman [00:14:35] And I was reassigned. Got a new set of orders to be navigator on the Alaska up in Bangor, Washington, and moved up there in the early summer of 99. And when I got up there, they put me on a little boat, and I met the ship and went underway and got home about the first part of September.

Rob Gorman [00:14:59] When I got back, my wife had met me down on the pier, and we had to ride a bus together back up to where the cars are parked because there's not enough room down at the pier area. And on the way up on that bus, she told me that I had an interview with the stake president the next night. It was a Wednesday night.

Rob Gorman [00:15:20] And I went into the stake president's office. I should say that I had an interview with him before I went to see that little short trip. We spent 20 minutes in the bishop's office. At any rate, I go into this appointment and go into the office.

Rob Gorman [00:15:36] And he asked me if I'm worthy to carry a temple recommend. I acknowledged that I was. And he said, you've been called to serve as bishop in the third ward. Can we bring your wife in? And that was the extent of the conversation.

Rob Gorman [00:15:54] My wife came in and he said to Michelle, your husband's been called to serve as bishop in the third ward. And she fell apart laughing because, well, it was a little bit of a surprise. Obviously, we were new in the area.

Rob Gorman [00:16:15] That following weekend, we had a state conference where two of the wards were realigned. One of them was the one I was asked to lead. And I didn't know the people in the ward. And as I was standing in state conference, being sustained as a bishop and a high priest, which is an office that you have to hold an ordination you have to hold to be a bishop in the LDS faith, I have my hand at the square sustaining myself. And I hear, who's that behind me somewhere?

Rob Gorman [00:16:50] One of the men that I called to be a counselor with me was someone I had known from the Navy. And he took me on a drive around the ward to show me the boundaries and introduced me to some people. And we met a counselor that was called.

Rob Gorman [00:17:04] And I learned pretty quickly that running a ward was not like running a department on a ship. Alluding to some of the things comments you mentioned about including women. I was in the submarine force at the time that there were no women and I had been in a career for a decade and a half working with only men. And I tended to be very patriarchal. I guess I didn't know that word

John Dehlin [00:17:32] then, but

Rob Gorman [00:17:34] other than the blessing part of it, at any rate, I learned from my first Relief Society that I was doing it wrong. Relief Society President that I was doing it wrong. Maybe we'll talk about that later.

Beau Oyler [00:17:44] Sounds like a good woman.

Rob Gorman [00:17:46] She is a good woman. She's serving as Relief Society president again.

Beau Oyler [00:17:50] Yeah. Excellent. So when you're called to be the bishop, you did you have any say in it?

Rob Gorman [00:18:02] I didn't at that time. I didn't mention when I introduced my status. So this is relevant. I've resigned. I've had my name removed from the records of the church and until the end of the time I was at counselor in the stake presidency and was worried about being called as the stake president I operated that you didn't decline callings. So did I have say? That's a two sided question. One did was I provided say from those who were speaking with me about the calling. The other side being that I provide myself say. And I would say the answer is no in both cases for this time I was called as a bishop.

Beau Oyler [00:18:51] And there's cultural reasonings behind that. Right. Where on one hand we are raised as young men, that we're priesthood holders. Right. And we've been chosen. We're the chosen generation. We are to stay worthy and have the spirit because we're holders of the priesthood and that we are to use that priesthood in leadership to lead our people and that one day we don't know when that we'll be called to lead. Right. And so that day comes and it's always a surprise. It was a total shock for me. And so we've been trained for that day our whole life. So on one hand you're right, we don't say no to callings. On the other hand, there's this almost like subculture sub thought of I'm not going to campaign for bishop because that's weird. But also I've been trained my whole life to be the bishop.

Rob Gorman [00:19:53] Could I add something there? I'm a con, was a convert. I joined the church when I was 21. I was with the Navy up in Idaho learning how to operate reactor plants and got introduced to the gospel via my wife. Actually she was attending Ricks College at the time. I met her skiing. And that took off pretty quickly. A thought was sparked in my mind, and it had a lot to do with what Nick said yesterday. So I wanted to add that here. When I got called my own worthiness to be a bishop, I wouldn't have considered myself. So I had faults and things I was working on like every person does. But I did have it cross my mind, and it did provide me some calm, I think, as this change was coming, that if I had been called, I must also have been forgiven.

Beau Oyler [00:20:59] Yeah. So it's almost like a confirmation. Right. That because the stake President clearly has discernment, that he called you to this calling, that therefore you must be forgiven.

Rob Gorman [00:21:12] Sure. And as I was thinking that that came into play as I was working with youth and adults over the time I was assigned ministering all through the Stake Presidency.

Nick Jones [00:21:24] Can I say something to that?

Beau Oyler [00:21:25] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:21:27] And maybe you guys know this, that the process, in my mind was the Stake Presidency prays about who should be the next bishop or maybe a handful of names of who possible candidates could be. But it doesn't end there because they give those names to the Quorum of the twelve in the First Presidency, and then they pray and ponder and really go through this thing to make sure that they pick the right guy.

Nick Jones [00:21:55] So for me, it was like God called me. And like you, it was validating in the sense that there were things in my life that definitely weren't perfect. My marriage wasn't perfect. My morals, according to Mormon standard, may not have been perfect as I raised my hand yesterday. Right. About masturbation, but it made me feel like, oh, you're good enough. Because God, through his prophet, prayed about you and said you were good enough. That's deep. That is. I don't know of any other validation that gets more powerful than that. Coming from a Mormon, strong Mormon background.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Well, I'm curious if you experience that dynamic, too.

Beau Oyler [00:22:46] Yeah, absolutely. Super validating. Growing up in the church, I struggled with what I now recognize as massive scrupulosity. Massive.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] What that is.

Beau Oyler [00:22:58] So scrupulosity is religious ocd, and it is a compulsive need to repent and to confess to a degree that is very unhealthy, where what it did for me is it.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] It can also be just high rumination.

Beau Oyler [00:23:15] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] Of, like, guilt and shame.

Beau Oyler [00:23:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] So guilt, even if you're not confessing.

Beau Oyler [00:23:19] Yeah, absolutely. So guilt and shame over everything. Right. And just constantly in your head over the guilt and shame and scrutinizing everything that you do, especially around morality, sexuality, anything, chastity, Honesty. And so that manifested itself for me in, yeah, in just causing high anxiety throughout my life and throughout my mission and then learning how to really fine tune every behavior of my life where I was able to go through great effort, kind of shut down my sexuality and shut down parts of my life so that I had very little expression in those ways in which I felt like I was screwing up so that I could have the spirit, because that was the promise.

Beau Oyler [00:24:11] So when I was called as bishop, same experience as Nick and Rob had where massive validation. It's like, okay, so God is okay with me. So I have been forgiven. These hours that I've spent on my knees pleading for forgiveness for very common things, very common things.

Beau Oyler [00:24:33] And let's say, okay, so I'm good. Now I want to share a little bit about how I was called to be bishop. Very interesting experience, life changing experience. So when I was 32, I. My friend Matt Lyon, amazing person, very nuanced, progressive member of the church. He was serving as elders quorum president, I was serving as ward mission leader. And we just loved each other, good friends. And he got called as bishop. He asked that I would be his first counselor. And it was one of those moments, like we were standing outside the Oakland temple. We just left the Stake center. We had just been called and we like stood outside for like an hour just brainstorming on like how we're going to change everything, right?

Beau Oyler [00:25:14] It's just like, oh my gosh, we're going to tear it up like that companionship. We were so excited. And so there we go. So we are like a year in on this bishopric and we were, and we were. I feel like we were making really good impact. His thing, Matt's thing was just meet people where they are spiritually. We are not there to convert, we are not there to push. We are there to just love people where they are.

Beau Oyler [00:25:42] And so big changes were happening within the ward. And then I had the idea one Sunday, I said, hey, the young men next weekend are going to be coming out of their backpacking trip. Let's surprise them. And reverse hike. Like we'll go up the backside of the hike while they're coming out and we'll pack up with like a bunch of goodies and then we'll go do a fireside and we'll surprise them. And so we drove up and we got a few miles up and it was in the Sierras. We were above the timberline, no cell service. Matt, who was 42 year old, Healthy person, suffered a fatal heart attack on the Trail. And he died in my arms.

Nick Jones [00:26:22] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] Wow.

Beau Oyler [00:26:25] And so there we were on the trail giving him cpr. And it was just me and Matt and our second counselor, and it was devastating. And we had no cells, no way to contact anyone. And so after giving CPR for what it was a couple of hours, he was gone. And I just held him in my lap for hours while the sun set.

Beau Oyler [00:26:56] And finally somebody came down and helped. They ran down, got paramedics, paramedics came up around midnight and he carried his body off and I hiked the rest of the way up, woke his 12 year old son up, hiked him down, drove home and spent the morning hours with Bishop Lyon's wife and walked her through every detail of what had happened.

Beau Oyler [00:27:22] The next day, the Stake president asked me to be the standing bishop until they can call a new bishop. I said, of course. Six weeks later, we got a knock on the door at 9 o' clock in the evening and it was the Stake Presidency. And they walked in. I knew that it was them thanking me for having served for six weeks through what was a really, a horrific and tragic time for our ward. And so they came in, they sat down with us. And then the Stake president, who is an amazing man, very, very good man, President Krittle, he took me into my bedroom.

Beau Oyler [00:27:55] We lived in a 1,000 square foot house in the Bay Area. And he began asking me those same questions that Rob was asked. You know, do you have a temple recommend? Are you worthy to use it? Yes. Brought me back in the living room. And then he called me to be the bishop of the Walnut Creek Second Ward.

Beau Oyler [00:28:16] And we didn't laugh, we cried because we were already like, so devastated from what had happened with Matt and exhausted. And when I became bishop that Sunday, you know, usually when you get a new bishop, it's kind of like the chapter. It's like the new beginnings, right? It's like really exciting. And for me, it was more like a funeral.

Beau Oyler [00:28:42] And it was a general feeling and acceptance of this isn't what was supposed to be. And then people would come up afterward and say these things, you know, to me, or especially to Eleanor, to Matt's wife, about like, well, Matt's where he's supposed to be, or Matt's off doing a better, you know, God's work.

Beau Oyler [00:29:06] It was just so flat and so empty. And so after a few weeks, I asked the Stake president, what am I supposed to say to people like, this isn't what was supposed to happen. Matt wasn't just supposed to die.

Beau Oyler [00:29:19] And the stake president said, beau, just tell him the truth. And I said, well, what is the truth? And he said, the truth is Matt's heart stopped and he died. Yeah, that's it. So what are we going to do with that? And how are you going to help your people come into Christ through that?

Beau Oyler [00:29:40] And that's how my bishop experience began. And, you know, I think it's known that, like drama tears people apart, but trauma with a T has the ability to bring people together. And that's what happened in our war, this trauma, which was horrible, and I wish it had never happened. I wish Matt was alive. I wish I still had him in my life. But that trauma brought us together, and we were a ward family out of necessity.

Nick Jones [00:30:14] That's powerful.

Beau Oyler [00:30:15] So that's how it began. And I was totally under qualified for it.

Nick Jones [00:30:20] Who isn't, right? Who isn't?

Jedd Kassing [00:30:23] All of us are. Yeah, my. I'll just jump in and share my experience. It was more of kind of an ascension of moving up the ranks from Gospel principles back when they had that class, to gospel doctrine, to counselor in the elders quorum, to elders quorum president, to bishop counselor, and then finally to bishop. And it just felt like a path that was put before me and that I was. I was taking and going on this path, and it felt very predetermined, preordained.

Jedd Kassing [00:31:03] I remember when the bishop prior to me came and told us that he was stepping down. He'd been. He'd been bishop for about four years and started having some health problems, and he wanted to focus on his health, and he said, I need to be done.

Jedd Kassing [00:31:19] The Stake presidency showed up the next week, and they're talking to everybody and interviewing as many people as they can. And I'm just running around trying to take care of the ward that day. And they finally get a hold of my wife and ask her a few questions, and then they come and talk to me. And then the next week, we're invited into the office. And I can't say it was really a surprise. We kind of knew it was coming just because that was the next step to take. Like, it was just a, okay, this is where we're at now. And my wife and I were both

John Dehlin [00:31:57] very

Jedd Kassing [00:31:59] humbled by it and scared by it, but also felt this empowerment. And then when you do get sustained, there's this huge outpouring of admiration and. And love from the ward. It's like they immediately just accept you as their spiritual leader, their guide, their person who's going to help them get through this. Life, and you feel a real weightiness to that. That is very humbling and scary for a little while. But, you know, pretty soon you get a quick little interview with somebody, and you realize we're just back to doing the work.

Jedd Kassing [00:32:38] So I don't have anything real spectacular other than I felt the same way. You feel very validated getting that call. You feel very. I mean, it's. Honestly, it's a little bit of an ego boost to get a calling like that and to be.

Jedd Kassing [00:32:55] To have everybody start praying for you, and you hear these prayers, and you start to maybe believe the hype a little bit too much. So that's. That was kind of my experience getting put in and. And real quickly starting to. You think, you know, ward until you ship. Like, as a counselor for four years, I was like, I think I got a grasp on this. And everyone's smiling, right?

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Like.

Jedd Kassing [00:33:17] Like one hour after being called the bishop, you're like, I know the.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] You should check in and have everyone say why they're smiling. Yeah, yeah. What. What do each of you mean by that?

Jedd Kassing [00:33:27] For me, since I've got the mic here, literally, like, here's the keys to the office, here's the. The handbook for bishops, and we set you apart. Amen. Have at it. Here you go. When I go into the office and sit down and a good friend in the ward says, hey, Bishop, can I talk to him? I'm thinking it's, hey, you're gonna come in and say, we're excited. Sits down and just opens like, I've got this huge pornography addiction, and. And I've slept with some prostitutes. It's just like, oh, boy, I wish I didn't hear that right now. This waited maybe a week.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] Those people, you would have never guessed.

Jedd Kassing [00:34:13] Never guessed. No. And I'll tell a real quick, funny story. My grand was a bishop before me, and when I got called, he told me, you're going to get to know the ward a lot better than you think you do. You're going to see that family in the front row, four kids, arms folded, husband and wife, and you're going to be. Man, they're great. And the wife's going to come in for a temple recommend interview, and you're gonna have a great, lovely discussion. As she's walking out, she's gonna turn around and say, one more question, Bishop, do you know how I can get my husband to stop wearing my underwear? And I was like, what? And sure enough, it's that level of detail that you start to know about people's lives. That you're just completely unprepared for.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Yeah.

Jedd Kassing [00:34:58] And that was just one of those moments over and over and over again. Yeah. So that was.

When the Veil Was Lifted: Early Surprises

Beau Oyler [00:35:05] Well, let me do this. So we, we had texted each other last night, right, John, when you introduced us. Let me do this. So as, as we talk about when that veil, the bishop veil was lifted, I just want to read you a quick list that's, it's kind of a culmination of what the three, what the four of us experienced. Okay. So I'm just going to read through real quick and then we can dive into any of these as you want to. All right, let's see. Sex abuse toward children, excommunicated 12 year old, infidelity, homelessness, suicidality, multiple suicides, death, teenagers sent to correctional camps.

Beau Oyler [00:35:49] Marriage issues, sex issues, money issues, women issues, patriarchy issues, testimony issues, faith issues, spirituality issues. Just feeling walled off from God. Addiction, church history, CES letter, church essays, exclusion policy. In 2015, pedophiles, Navy and military deployments see members shooting themselves on the side of the road with a shotgun.

Beau Oyler [00:36:24] Let's see, adult cutters, teenage suicidality. Lots and lots and lots of faith issues, lots of church history issues. People leaving very publicly leaving the church, people going on Mormon stories after they left the church and that kind of rippling through their ward. As John guiltily laughs.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Hi. Johnson's

Beau Oyler [00:36:57] calls to Curtin McConie. The whole thing with like the teen troubled, teen ranches, you know, with the church paying for those. Financial fraud, financial fraud among members, members getting arrested and taken to jail, members molesting people within their scout troop and within their young men and young women. I mean, the people disappearing, you know, just. And this is all the, this is all the darkness. Right. And so I'll start there because I think part of it, I also want to go in the lightness and in the miracles that we saw, the beauty that we saw.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Can I just ask, did you have domestic violence on there?

Beau Oyler [00:37:39] Yes, domestic violence. I know I used ward funds at one point to fly a mother and her two children to an undisclosed location to get away from her husband who wouldn't stop beating her. Yeah, so all of those things, that was just a spattering of things that we texted each other last night of. Hey, what did the question, what did you experience as a bishop? And this is what was texted out last night in very normal wards in Mississippi, the Bay Area, Utah and Seattle. Okay. So when we talk about, you know, Jed when he becomes bishop and all of a sudden the veil is lifted. This is what we're talking about in very normal lives, in very normal wards. So with that context, maybe it's helpful. Rob, Nick, you know, what was it like for you as you were baptized by fire?

Baptism by Fire and Early Challenges

John Dehlin [00:38:39] That's a heavy list. I'm just going to say that.

Beau Oyler [00:38:41] Oh, it's extremely heavy. I'm smiling only out of like, I don't know, self preservation, right? Because when you're a new bishop with almost no training, and then almost immediately, like Jed said, a friend of his comes in and it's just like, dude, I'm out of control. Or for me, my first Sunday, First Sunday, a woman came to me in tears that night and said, I slept with someone and her husband's outside of my office crying. And I called the Stake president, I didn't know what to do. And he came rushing in from Oakland and met with her. And after an hour he came out and they left and he hugged me and he said, oh, Bishop, you need to learn to ask more questions. And I said, when someone tells me that they slept with someone, like they slept with someone, like she had sex, I don't know, what do you ask after that?

Nick Jones [00:39:46] That lead you to no more?

Beau Oyler [00:39:48] She thought that she didn't have sex. She literally slept in the bed with someone. And she felt so badly. She felt scrupulosity. She felt, yes, it was inappropriate, of course it was inappropriate to sleep in the bed, was in a bed with another person, not her husband. But the scrupulosity was. She had cheated on her husband by doing this. She had never slept with him. They had never had sex. And so the Stake president's like, bishop, you need to ask more questions. So what did I do as a young 33 year old that taught me, oh, I need to dive deep when someone comes in and says, hey, I broke the law of chastity. Now we need to dive in. And that becomes very uncomfortable very quickly.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] Can I just say really quickly. So there's a way that I'm relating to this and there's a way that this is way beyond because I was trained as a psychologist. I spent six years doing psychotherapy. And yes, I dealed with active suicidality, self harm, abuse, guilt, shame, all sorts of the things you mentioned, the difference between what a psychologist experiences, because we always say you're not trained like a psychologist. So, yes, one huge difference between psychologists and y' all is that we're trained. I was trained on what to do with someone who self harms. If I hadn't been trained, it would have been probably too much for me.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Feeling responsible for solving that problem. In other words, getting in my mind, originally it was to get them to stop self harming. Then I learned that's not the way to approach it. But that's. An expert trained me. Not only did y' all not have any of that training across rape, incest, you know, domestic violence, suicidality, not only did you not have training, I never. I learned very quickly from my trainers as a psychologist that it wasn't my job to fix the problem, that it was my pro. It was my job just to, like, do my best to help them, and then it's up to them.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] And honestly, after the first little bit, once I sent them on their way, I didn't carry it with me home. I'm just like, well, I'm doing my best to help them. If they figure it out, great. If they don't, I can't wear that. Yeah, y', all. It seems like.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] It seems like you all felt the added burden of fixing the problems, which to me is. And tell me if I'm wrong, to me would just be beyond what I could have handled. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Rob Gorman [00:42:25] No, that. That goes to the training that you spoke about. You were, as part of your training as a professional therapist, you were trained to disengage and to do the things you described, which allowed you to leave it at work and go home. The lack of training we were given included not doing that. We. We were, if not overtly, we were at least alluded to that we were responsible for these people 24 7, and we needed to make sure that it was carried through to get them the help they needed. I learned very early having to make a call to the 1-800-number when a child had been violated in our ward. I learned very early when I spoke to that legal office. I'm avoiding the names because I can't bring it to mind right now that

John Dehlin [00:43:24] in Washington where, like Child Protective Services kind of thing.

Rob Gorman [00:43:28] No, no, the church's legal office.

Jedd Kassing [00:43:30] Curtin, McConnell.

Rob Gorman [00:43:31] Yeah. That 1-800-number, bishop's call in Washington, the ecclesiastical penitent privilege thing. I was not a required reporter. And that was made very clear to me when I made that call. And it became apparent to me I read it differently than I do now, and I admit I may be seeing it cynically now, but I read it differently than that. It was. I need to not take this on because I need to protect the Church, make sure these people get help, and I'm not the one to do that. So I got to go find Somebody that can help them professionally. And I learned that lesson pretty early.

Rob Gorman [00:44:11] I have some cynicism now that the advice I was given was biased heavily towards protecting the organization and making sure my actions didn't bring liability to the organization. Vice helping the person. They were compassionate, they were kind, they brought some reasonable things. But their whole thing was to make sure that I understood what I was legally required to do in the state of Washington.

Nick Jones [00:44:39] If I could add just a few thoughts, I had to look up a boy. K. Packer talk. First and foremost, when you said you called the stake president, the stake president said, you know, you need to ask more questions. Let's just give the stake presidents a little grace too. They also don't know what the heck they're doing.

Beau Oyler [00:44:54] Oh, yeah, for sure.

Nick Jones [00:44:55] Right. So most of them. The only difference is they make more money than most people. Right. They've worked their way up. But this just came to mind. Elder Packer, Boyd Packer said true doctrine understood changes attitudes and behavior. Everybody's heard these quotes. The study of doctrine, the study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than the study of behavior will improve behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel. We take a quote like that and we think, yeah, I'm not a therapist. Yeah, I don't have an education, but I've got the doctrine of Jesus Christ. And because I have that, it trumps a 4, 5, 6, 7 year degree. So why am I not validated? To give my 2 cents on the

Beau Oyler [00:45:45] matter,

Nick Jones [00:45:47] to me, that's a little terrifying now that I see it from this perspective, because I am not skilled in that way. But as a bishop with this kind of programming, I'm better than a skilled person.

Jedd Kassing [00:45:59] And it's that feeling of the bishop or the stake president knows better because of their keys and their calling is found in the members. The. The sexual abuse situation that happened in my ward, the mother called me when she found out that it had happened and said, what do I do?

Jedd Kassing [00:46:21] And I said, call the police. And she was like, really? Is that what I should do here? And I look back on that, like your first inclination after your child has been sexually abused is to call the bishop and say, what do I do? How do I.

Jedd Kassing [00:46:37] How do I. I know something's happened and it's horrible. And I. And part of me is grateful she called and that I had an opportunity to. To talk and to help. But that. That deference to a bishop who has no training, no idea. And to this day, I don't know why I said, you know, I was on vacation, but I immediately just said, call the police.

Jedd Kassing [00:47:01] And I'm so grateful I did. But I knew in the back of my head I needed to call this one, 800 number too. And I knew I needed to go down that road. And. But there is this pedestal that we're put on as leadership in the church, and it permeates throughout the war. They really, truly look at you as, I don't know what to do in this situation. Please tell me what to do. And I'm like, I sell T shirts and hats. Why would I know how to handle this situation? My training has nothing to do with this. And it's very scary to.

Nick Jones [00:47:36] To add to that. You know, when you call these hotlines, like, I had a member once that had a newborn baby that was just so frustrated. They said I almost threw her out the window because she wouldn't stop crying. And you hear that and you're like, holy. Yeah, that's heavy. Do I need to call dhs? Do I need to. So you call the hotline and you tell them, and they're like, well, Bishop, I'll leave it to you. But, you know, this is what I would do.

Jedd Kassing [00:48:07] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:48:07] But I don't know, you know, that person. I'm like, do I really?

Jedd Kassing [00:48:10] Right.

Nick Jones [00:48:11] I've been in their home once I see them on Sunday, I don't hardly ever talk to them outside of a handshake. Do I know them?

Rob Gorman [00:48:23] No.

Nick Jones [00:48:23] No, Honestly. And now you take that home and you sit on that for months or even years, and you wonder, did I make the right call? Is something going on over there that I need to be aware of? Do I need to go set up a hidden camera at their house? You know, it's just not healthy. Yeah.

The Weight of Being a Bishop

Beau Oyler [00:48:44] I think that one of the core topics that all of us learned in our bishop experience, one of the lessons that I taught the young men last year in this kind of expansive spirituality, lessons that I've been teaching them, sharing with them, is the idea of the locus of control, or the idea of an internal looking inward versus looking outward. And the way that the Mormonism in which I was raised in and certainly learned on my mission, was that we're always to look outward to a source, whether that's to God or to Christ or to a prophet or to a bishop. And so when we're in that structure of not trusting ourselves, right.

Beau Oyler [00:49:29] We are the natural man. We are corrupt and broken and cannot be trusted. Therefore, we must look to an outward source for guidance in all Things, then we put people like the bishop in that position where we're going to them for things that we just shouldn't be going to them for.

Beau Oyler [00:49:52] And that's what results in the mother calling you and saying, hey, like, my child was molested. What do I do? I had multiple. Multiple couples come and break up in my office, like, permanently. Like, I'm leaving you. Yeah, I'm divorcing you. This is over. Or call me over on a late night and be like, this is it. This is. We're done. And then actually, yes, get divorced.

Beau Oyler [00:50:20] And I think, you know, and with the molestation, with abuse cases as well, I remember a brother confessing to me that he abused his child. And I just let him speak. And then when he was done, I said, is there anything else? And I let him finish. And then I said, are you calling Child Protective Services or am I?

Nick Jones [00:50:45] Good for you. Good for you.

Rob Gorman [00:50:48] Yeah. I think, you know, we have risk here of remembering all of the things that were struggles for us because they're poignant. But I also think discernment capabilities aside, that because I knew I was the point person, I could step into the breach. And.

Nick Jones [00:51:21] Sorry.

Rob Gorman [00:51:26] And do what I could. There was a happy memory that brought this up, and I may not know what I'm doing. I say this cliche all the time. Experience is that thing you get the moment after you needed it. But as you step in and say, I will help you, and if you have the humility to recognize that you don't have the skills, but you do have resources. And I did enjoy that as a bishop. I did enjoy being able to say, man, I have no idea what to do with that, but I know somebody that can get us started.

Rob Gorman [00:52:02] And even for simple things like youth who are worried about things that are happening with their bodies and their sexual desires and stuff that is natural in the course of their puberty, I felt good. Although I wasn't trained at all and barely did what I needed to for my kids to help them, I felt good being able to provide relief.

Rob Gorman [00:52:29] It was mentioned in the list that you. That you read, Bo. There was a. I had a person in my ward who called me from the. The side of the road. He was in his pickup truck, and he had a shotgun, and he said he was going to do something and kill himself, and he didn't know what to do. And, you know, what do you do with that? You could call emergency services and lights and sirens could show up.

Rob Gorman [00:53:01] I was afraid of that. I drove to where he was. It wasn't very far away. And we talked and. I got the gun and I got him into a hospital. We did get an ambulance and got him into a psychiatric care facility. And as far as I know, he's okay. I mean, this was a long time ago, as you heard in my introduction.

Rob Gorman [00:53:26] But if he had not had a person to call, what would have happened? So I did enjoy. I don't think it was status or things like that, but I did enjoy being able to be the person that could provide immediate.

Rob Gorman [00:53:43] Choose these paths. You could go here or here or provide relief. I think as I look back before I became disenchanted and started the deconstruction thing later in the Stake presidency time, when I look back before then, being a bishop was rewarding because of those kinds of opportunities. Some of them are dramatic, like the shotgun on the side of the road. Most of them were helping couples or youth recognize that the thing they're so worried about is really minor in the scale of things. And they can focus on other.

Rob Gorman [00:54:21] You get what I'm saying? You can re vector their mind so that they're dwelling on what's positive. I did enjoy that quite a lot.

Beau Oyler [00:54:30] Yeah. And I think those are some of the most special experiences that we have as bishops. Right. Is being able to be uniquely suited for. Maybe not suited for, but be positioned to be able to be invited into someone's life or even be able to insert ourselves into someone's life, to be able to be that listening ear or that voice or that influence in their life and make an impact. I mean, those are certainly the memories for me that were so impactful. And I think where it becomes challenging is asking that question of why. Like, why is it to the bishop and is that healthy that for very large things and all the way to minute things, that we are trained to go to that source versus looking inward for that source. And there's got to be a balance of it. Right. I'm not saying that we should all just live on an island.

Nick Jones [00:55:24] Right.

Beau Oyler [00:55:25] It's not always inward. But being able to learn how to trust ourselves, I think is critical.

Jedd Kassing [00:55:32] Yeah. And being bishop gives you a real access to people's lives in ways that you don't otherwise. Like you're involved in every baby blessing and every baptism and every. Every sick child wants a bishop to give him a blessing. And you do have these great opportunities to be really involved in people's lives. Did you see marriages?

John Dehlin [00:55:54] Did you say marriages?

Jedd Kassing [00:55:55] Marriages. Performing marriages, performing funerals. So you are a key figure in some very big monument steps in people's lives. And it's humbling and it's very. Those are the fond memories I have. You know, I, I don't, I don't believe in the power of any of that really. But, but to be invited into a family's life in that way is that, that was a very good part of being a bishop. And very much a highlight is to, to be a part of that. And the sad flip side of it is you're just woefully unprepared when the real heavy stuff comes in.

Nick Jones [00:56:34] Yeah, you turn into, you know, it's kind of the difference between being a counselor in the bishopric and being a bishop. Counselors. When a bishop has like a Tuesday night, you know, full schedule, a counselor has to just sit in the foyer and be there. I did that for three years, three and a half, almost four years. And I, I won't lie, I was a little envious. Like, he's in there having this moment. People come out crying or laughing or whatever. And I've literally sat here for four hours, like, took a few naps, read a few things, scrolled my Facebook feed a few times.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] You weren't studying your scriptures?

Nick Jones [00:57:11] Heck, no. I've done that for too long. I, I needed a break. But, but you know what I mean, it was like, oh, I want some of that. Yeah, I'm away from my family, just sitting here.

Jedd Kassing [00:57:22] Yeah.

Nick Jones [00:57:22] You know, so my heart goes out to the counselors in so many ways because they're kind of the unsung hero in the story who do a lot of work. Yeah. They don't have to deal with a lot of the garbage, but yet they have to be away from their families as well. I think they don't get recognized. So maybe I just take this moment to say it. You know, you counselors who are currently in the church, we feel you, we've been there, we see you, and that's not an easy thing. But I assure you, the bishop hat fricking sucks. You don't want that either. What you want is to just go home and be with your family.

Jedd Kassing [00:58:06] I've always said if somebody wants to be bishop, they deserve to be bishop.

Nick Jones [00:58:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Can I rifle around that question? So just literally 2 second answers overall, like, rewind to your believing Mormon selves. If you were given the option of being a bishop or not, and no one would care, no one would know, God would love you either way. It's just between you and what you want to do.

Jedd Kassing [00:58:33] Would you say yes, Jed, back then? Yes. I didn't Turn down calling?

John Dehlin [00:58:39] No. But now.

Jedd Kassing [00:58:39] Oh, now, no. So I would not want to be bishop again? No.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] Okay. Rob.

Rob Gorman [00:58:45] So as I understand it, not having deconstructed.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] Yeah. Like, did it suck? Did it suck so much that now, if you were given the same option, taking away any celestial implications, would you accept it or turn it down?

Rob Gorman [00:59:01] So that's conditional. I would do a number of things, particularly with my family, very differently. I love that the serving people and working and helping them resolve things. I. That doesn't require a calling. I enjoy doing that kind of thing.

Jedd Kassing [00:59:19] But I would.

Rob Gorman [00:59:20] I would do things very differently about how I prioritized in my life if I were to accept that calling.

John Dehlin [00:59:28] But would you accept it?

Rob Gorman [00:59:29] If. If I still.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] If there were a secular bishop position, would you accept it?

Rob Gorman [00:59:34] Oh, that's a different question.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Okay. It's hard to ask a question.

Rob Gorman [00:59:38] I know. I know. Probably not.

John Dehlin [00:59:41] Okay.

Rob Gorman [00:59:41] There's enough to do with my children, my grandchildren, my wife. No.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] You're saying it's too much.

Rob Gorman [00:59:48] I think it is. I enjoy being retired now, but having a job. No. That time belongs to them and they should have it. I would not take it again.

Beau Oyler [01:00:00] I would say yes if my wife were to be the bishop, and I could be her first counselor.

Worthiness Interviews and Sensitive Questions

Jedd Kassing [01:00:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:00:11] All right. And Nick.

Beau Oyler [01:00:13] No.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] You'd say no?

Nick Jones [01:00:14] Hell, no. So much of what a bishop does is just really no one's business. It's made their business because that's what they feel like they have to do. And I'm not interested in other people's business business, so I'm out.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] Interesting.

Rob Gorman [01:00:28] I got to tell you, I really like that resonates with me very much.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] A lot of what a bishop, Mormon bishop does is nobody's business.

Rob Gorman [01:00:37] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] That's interesting.

Nick Jones [01:00:38] Yeah. I don't want to hear it.

Beau Oyler [01:00:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:40] It's kind of policing morality. Policing behavior.

Beau Oyler [01:00:44] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:00:44] Here you're a hall monitor man, and I'm not interested in that.

Beau Oyler [01:00:48] And so. And that is factual. So even from. Even from the top.

Nick Jones [01:00:54] Right.

Beau Oyler [01:00:54] So when you go back and look at the way that the presidency has handled sexuality, it's an amazing history. Okay. One of my therapists, Daniel Burgess, his whole focus is on LDS male sexuality, and he's writing a book on the history of LDS sexuality teachings. And so he's allowed me to read this book. And so in 1981, the first presidency wrote a letter to all bishops. Okay. And it's the blowjob letter.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] This is Spencer B. Kimball. Yeah.

Beau Oyler [01:01:30] Spencer W. Kimball.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [01:01:31] First Presidency sign. Oral sex is against the law. Chastity okay. You cannot be worthy and perform oral sex.

Nick Jones [01:01:39] He's missing out. That's all I can tell him. Sorry, bro. You never had any of that in your life.

Beau Oyler [01:01:43] I would love to have seen that. You know, that first or the.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] Did they read that across the pulpit?

Beau Oyler [01:01:50] No, of course not. But it went out to all state presidencies and Bishop Ricks. Okay. And then I'm sure the next Thursday they went back into quorum media, and half of them are like, bro, well, whatever happened, six months later, they sent a new letter out to all bishops and stake presidencies that says the personal affairs of a couple are not to be questioned by a bishop or stake president. When did you know that? When were you taught that as a bishop?

Nick Jones [01:02:22] Never, ever.

Beau Oyler [01:02:23] Okay, second question. When was masturbation taken out of the official church handbook? What year

John Dehlin [01:02:32] was it ever in?

Beau Oyler [01:02:33] Yes.

Nick Jones [01:02:33] I had no idea about that.

Beau Oyler [01:02:35] Yes, it was. When was it taken out?

Nick Jones [01:02:39] I'm only super familiar with the current handbook personally.

Beau Oyler [01:02:41] 2010. It was taken out, never announced, just like everything else taken out. Okay. And yet, by tradition, it just continues to be taught the tighter, the tighter, the tighter the better.

John Dehlin [01:03:02] What do you mean, the tighter the better?

Beau Oyler [01:03:03] What I mean is, the more orthodox the better, holding to whatever standard you thought there was from some past leader. And that is generally what gets passed on. So when I became bishop, I have all sorts of people coming to me confessing of masturbation.

Beau Oyler [01:03:26] Okay? And one of them came, young couple in the ward, and he came to me and he said, hey, bishop or no. We were in a temple recommend interview, and I asked about law of chastity. Do you live a law of chastity? And he said, yes. And he said, sometimes I masturbate.

Beau Oyler [01:03:43] But, like, my wife knows that. But actually, sometimes I masturbate, like when I'm on the road traveling. But, like, I don't tell her. And I'm like, okay, well, that's breaking the law of chastity. And I came down on him, and I said, listen, you got to talk to your wife. And I actually went to their house that Sunday, and I sat down with both of them, and I said, you've got some things you need to clear up.

Beau Oyler [01:04:09] And he told his wife, and I made a huge deal out of this thing. And it was not a huge deal because this was part of their marriage. They were okay with it. This was, like, months into being bishop.

Beau Oyler [01:04:26] Okay? And so then I start getting these different cases of people coming to me, talking about masturbation and asking me or confessing me or asking what the church's position is on this. So I look in the handbook. Nothing. So I send an email to my stake president and I line out these five cases within my ward, all revolving around masturbation. And he responds, and he says, we have no instruction on masturbation.

Beau Oyler [01:04:54] To which I respond, it would probably be helpful then if we can discuss this as bishops so that we're all on the same page.

Nick Jones [01:05:01] You know, my question for that is, and this refers to yesterday, then why are members of the Stake Presidency and even bishoprics adding that question to the temple recommendation interview?

Beau Oyler [01:05:11] Exactly.

Nick Jones [01:05:12] If there is no direction, which I know there's not, why is it a thing?

Beau Oyler [01:05:16] Yep.

Nick Jones [01:05:17] What's causing this to become a thing? And why is it everywhere? Because I've had it asked me in little town, Mississippi. Right. It's made its way all the way down there.

Beau Oyler [01:05:26] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:05:26] So why.

Beau Oyler [01:05:28] Yeah.

Rob Gorman [01:05:29] Could I go more broadly? This is something I struggled with. And I have a little mental model that I use. And I'll tell a story quickly about a policy that came out from an area authority. An area authority is a man who's set apart, and they generally preside over what's called a coordinating council. And in our area, that coordinating council was about 12 stakes. And the stake presidents meet with them, and that's their line of accountability is up to that area authority, that area 70. And we had one when I was a bishop, may have been while I was in the High Council, nonetheless, we had one that said women may not offer prayer, opening prayer and sacrament meeting, because it's a priesthood meeting, and the priesthood has to offer that. And that became

Beau Oyler [01:06:26] policy.

Rob Gorman [01:06:28] And we operated under that for a year or two. But the generalization I want to make is, I find even in sexuality, even in just basic administration of funds and so forth, there are. There's a circle of doctrine which you could go find in places like the Scriptures.

Rob Gorman [01:06:49] There is a circle of policy, which then involves the handbook of instructions and the meetings you have when general authorities roll around and invite all the bishops and so forth to come sit at their feet. And then the outer circle is tradition, which individuals, because of their own leanings, their own bias, will use doctrine or policy as a reason to invoke what becomes a new tradition or a new unwritten rule. So many of the things that we had to observe and exercise by as bishops were unwritten, from simple things like where the counselor sits to who gets the sacrament first. And you could go on and list these things.

Rob Gorman [01:07:35] And I think that is a bishops having to decide where they have to be solid on something and where they can relax is where this bishop roulette that we hear about in the post Mormon community comes in. There are bishops that will take interpretation and, and do what is well for people. And there are bishops like me, who was a naval officer, who knew the handbook backwards and forwards. And I would administer based on what I thought was doctrine. And I admit ranging into policy. I think, I think that's a risk for bishops that are called having to operate. Where do they fall? And it depends on their personality and their stake leadership as well.

Pornography, Policy, and Area Authorities

John Dehlin [01:08:16] And there's three, I have to say there's three things that come to mind there. One is just a natural cultural residue of old things persisting that doesn't necessarily require any bad actors or nefarious scheming. It's just the way humans work. You tend to do or enforce or conform to what you experienced. That's kind of one level. A second level is like a conscious sort of like, you know, boy K. Packer, I think gave a talk once called the Unwritten Order of Things, where, you know, where it's just like, hey, you know, whatever we put in the manual. But then like those who know, know.

Rob Gorman [01:09:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] And then they enforce kind of the more original.

Beau Oyler [01:09:06] That's what I meant by getting tighter and tighter and tighter.

John Dehlin [01:09:09] Okay, that's what I meant. Yeah. But then the third is like this nefarious plausible deniability thing where, where you think, well, these, these Curt McConkey lawyers coordinating with Correlation at church headquarters just don't like the look of masturbation being forbidden. So we're going to take it out of the, we're going to intentionally take it out of the Handbook of Instructions, but we're going to make sure in our verbal trainings, the mentorship of area or stake presidents to bishops, that that still gets passed on, but we just don't. We want plausible deniability. And I don't know how to navigate those three different levels, but all of those levels occur to be.

Jedd Kassing [01:09:51] Yeah, I wanted to. For your third point, the pornography and masturbation was absolutely taught at stake level. To be asking that specifically to the men and the youth.

John Dehlin [01:10:02] Dude, that's what I was thinking.

Jedd Kassing [01:10:03] Like it was for you, my stake president, we would go to the bishop's roundtable or whatever, bishopric trainings, and the discussion would be. Rather than ask, do you keep the law of chastity? Why aren't we asking? When was the last time you masturbated?

Nick Jones [01:10:19] Yeah, and this is why it's a Problem in the church.

Jedd Kassing [01:10:22] Right.

Nick Jones [01:10:23] Because it keeps getting talked about.

Jedd Kassing [01:10:24] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:10:25] It keeps getting brought up and people, their curiosity sparks and all of a sudden they're in this rabbit hole of guilt and shame and then it's just perpetual.

Jedd Kassing [01:10:33] I've told this to a lot of people since I stopped believing and stepped away. The amount of times I think about masturbation and pornography, 5% as much as I did when I was in the church. Like if it's not in front of your face all day long, it really isn't an issue. But when every priesthood meeting you go to, it comes up, that becomes like the biggest boogeyman and into the church's correct fall. They did pull it out of the handbooks. They do have that deniability and that's really frustrating. And it puts bishop in a really bad spot to police things that they're told the police but technically shouldn't be. It's, it's rough.

Nick Jones [01:11:13] Have you noticed that the brethren have stepped away from that in General Conference? Yeah, there was like, I don't remember the year, but I mean it was like every conference. There were several talks and pornography, masturbation came up and they learned, oh, we're the problem. Yeah, we're creating more.

Jedd Kassing [01:11:28] I used to say all the time, I don't need to go to priesthood session because I don't need to hear about gambling and porn anymore.

Rob Gorman [01:11:33] I've heard.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] Great point. Yeah. Well, part of me, like, has always wanted to give the church leaders the benefit of the doubt, that they wouldn't be scheming and nefarious. And I still want to always have that best faith assumption. But learning that stake presidents and area authorities are providing off the books training, that's more orthodox and rigid and harmful. I mean, it, it makes me go one of three, one of three ways either super angry or blame the staker area presidents, that they're the middleman. I remember talking to Elder Holland once, the Mormon apostle, and him telling me, you don't understand how difficult it is for all these mid level managers, meaning mission presidents, temple presidents, stake presidents, area authorities who go off book because they're ambitious and they ratchet things up.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] Whether it's like unhealthy baptism statistics on missions or weird area president agendas for their area. And, and I don't think the apostles feel like they have a total control over what area authorities do. But, but if the church is intentionally allowing area authorities and stake presidents to teach an embarrassing level of doctrinal rigidity that's harmful, I'm upset about that.

Beau Oyler [01:13:00] Yeah, so am I.

Jedd Kassing [01:13:02] And.

Beau Oyler [01:13:02] And it does go into the bishop roulette. And then you get general authority over, let's Area authority. Area authority or even state president roulette. Maybe.

Nick Jones [01:13:12] Maybe apostle roulette.

Beau Oyler [01:13:13] Yeah, yeah. I mean.

Nick Jones [01:13:14] I mean, it goes all the way up.

Beau Oyler [01:13:17] It does. And in the Oakland stake, where. Where I served, I don't know that it's the most progressive stake in the entire world, but it's got to be top three.

Jedd Kassing [01:13:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] It's like Berkeley, Cambridge.

Beau Oyler [01:13:29] It is. Yeah, exactly Right. And so, you know, we. Berkeley Ward is in the Oakland State. The Oakland Ward is in the Oakland State like it is, you know, and we loved it and we were proud of it. And so that was the culture in which we really promoted. And it was very much just everyone's welcome.

Beau Oyler [01:13:49] And so, you know, people, you know, wards like the Berkeley Ward for the last two decades, which means the last two bishopric cycles, has had a female bishopric. We have had three women on the stand that were called as special assistants to the bishop because they can't be given the official title as a female bishopric. But they're in all bishopric meetings, all bishopric councils, PC Ward council, everything. They are, in essence, the female bishopric.

Beau Oyler [01:14:20] It's been that way for 10 years. Oakland Ward, same thing. And that's just how it is. And as it should be. And then a Area Authority 70, came into town for state. For state conference. He caught wind of this.

Beau Oyler [01:14:35] He began poking around. He went to the Berkeley ward, he saw it in action, and he shut it down. And he went to Salt Lake and he got their permission. Whatever happened, I don't know the details. And he came back, and now there can be no women on the stand.

Beau Oyler [01:14:50] And then it went outside of the Oakland stake. And turns out down in Palo Alto, in San Mateo, they're doing the same thing. Shut it down. And so now my friend Amy Jensen is. Has this movement of women on the stand, which is in general conference. We have women on the stand.

Beau Oyler [01:15:08] We should have that representation for our daughters and our wives and the women at church. And it just goes to show that just this random. These random acts of someone who's like, I don't like that. That threatens the patriarchy, that threatens an unspoken unrecorded rule. And so I'm going to shut it down.

Nick Jones [01:15:32] I'm frustrated by that, though. Think about this. They're aware of that, and they shut that down. But they're also aware of bishopric members, stake presidency members, asking specific questions. They're aware of that. They let that play.

Beau Oyler [01:15:46] Yep.

Nick Jones [01:15:47] Go ahead and do that thing. We're aware of that, we're fine with that. But then when it comes to women having a little more power in this patriarchy. Oh, I remember getting a letter recently from the church talking about people praying to a mother in heaven and how wrong it was. They're going to make official letters for that. But it's perfectly fine to sit down with a 13 year old girl and have her tell you about her masturbation experiences and then it's not only perfectly fine for her to tell you that, it's perfectly normal for you to ask more details about it and they don't stop that and they know what's going on. That, that, that really.

Beau Oyler [01:16:23] Well, not just that you're as the bishop, you're the judge in Israel who has to ask her in order for her to go to the temple.

Nick Jones [01:16:35] Yeah, like my wife yesterday told to go to the temple and sit in the parking lot as punishment. A 15 year old girl, what does that do for her life in a very, very important developmental stage of her life that does so much harm? It does zero good in my opinion. Zero. Oh, I get bothered by it. Guys, I'm sorry,

Rob Gorman [01:17:04] I don't want to make. Excuse me, but I've rationalized in my mind why this dissonance in this policy doctrine tradition where there is very specific control over very specific issues and they're then very broad margin with others. And the dissonance comes from an organization who espouses direction from deity and behaves exactly like a corporation where plausible deniability, as John said, is necessary so that they can not be held to account for things that are done wrong by people they supposedly have authority over. And I think that's where these problems, I mean in its base originate.

Rob Gorman [01:17:58] I agree that those questions that you've described should not be asked. But I have to say when I was a bishop I was not trained to ask those things. But when I sat in disciplinary councils, those things were modeled before me. And I think it natural that a person would mimic the leadership model that they're in.

Rob Gorman [01:18:26] This is really, I draw an analogy. I was a type of parent that my children are determined they're going to do differently. I said the same thing about my parents. But when I look at their parenting, I can see myself and my wife all through their parenting and they are doing differently. So they do what they have seen and learned and then they incorporate things that are maybe better and I in a delay incorporate those same things. As I work with my grandchildren, I see this with Church leadership. These are octogenarians and older that are putting their life experience into the things they think are important.

Rob Gorman [01:19:12] They see their children, their grandchildren. We can go several generations, as we look at leadership, looking down into the wards, doing things very differently than they grew up in. And it takes them 20, 30 years and what I can see to catch up to what society has recognized not as acceptable as correct.

Rob Gorman [01:19:34] And I think that is going to be a problem as long as leadership in the church believes they have the say and don't receive counsel from women, from LGBTQ communities, from others who are not part of their professional professionals from others who are not part of their sphere of experience that they're making these policies from.

Rob Gorman [01:20:01] I think that's a corporate behavior thing. And if you look at business that doesn't look at the marketplace, those businesses fail and those chickens are coming home to roost. That's why we see people like us who were in, I think, one of the most committed positions one can accept.

Rob Gorman [01:20:25] Speaking the way we are today and feeling the way I have for a number of years, I don't know what the fix of that is other than to recognize that they don't have all the answers and they need to listen to people who are actually struggling with the problems that they're trying to control, they're not solving yet. They're controlling behavior instead of solving issues to make life better for people that are linked with them in the church. That was soapboxy. Apologize. I love it.

Beau Oyler [01:20:59] Rob, that was spot on.

Jedd Kassing [01:21:00] Yep.

Beau Oyler [01:21:00] Yeah.

Tradition Versus Policy: Beards and Minor Rules

Jedd Kassing [01:21:01] Can I ask a little follow up question for us about that? Like, I'm thinking of those things that are more tradition than policy or doctrine. Did you ever try to break that tradition and get any kickback or feedback? Because I noticed I, I wore a beard off and on and as a bishop. As a bishop.

John Dehlin [01:21:21] What the.

Jedd Kassing [01:21:22] And out of spite, for the last four years, because of a conversation I had with the stake president, I would refuse to shave it.

John Dehlin [01:21:29] Well, ex Mormon. Never. Mormons don't know the bishops are generally forbidden in orthodox church culture. At byu, the church's universities, you have to have a beard card, which is like a letter, a note from your doctor saying you have a skin condition or you're not allowed to wear a beard at the university and top church leaders just never wear beards. Right. But that's not official.

Jedd Kassing [01:21:52] It's not. Well, it's not in the handbook.

Beau Oyler [01:21:55] It's not in the handbook, but it is official.

Jedd Kassing [01:21:57] It's official. And it's one of those tradition things. The funny thing that would happen. Happened to me is I'd. I'd walk into sacrament meeting with a bit of a beard and half the

John Dehlin [01:22:06] ward as a bishop.

Jedd Kassing [01:22:07] As a bishop, half the ward wouldn't shake my hand. The next week, I'd shave. They're all back shaking my hand. And we, We. It finally came to a head.

John Dehlin [01:22:17] That's the Lord enforcing on the bishop.

Jedd Kassing [01:22:19] Right, Right. And I finally got to a point where, like, I'm wearing it, I don't care. We're done with this. It became a non issue after that.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] And then soon you left the church.

Jedd Kassing [01:22:28] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:22:30] That made you go.

Jedd Kassing [01:22:31] The beard was. The second thing I did is we moved the sacrament to the end of sacrament meeting instead of the beginning. I didn't tell anyone. That's just what we did. And there was this, like, confusion out there, and people thought we forgot about it or the bread wasn't there or something. That one actually was received very positively. Where people came and said, that was nice to do it different. We got out of the routine and focused on something different. And so I had these conflicting experiences with tradition policy where I would do. I'd try to play around with that. And some of it went really well and some of them really bad. I'm curious if any of you, the rest of you had anything like that.

Nick Jones [01:23:14] We had a great experience in our Word. If I can share. I had this epiphany last March

Rob Gorman [01:23:21] to

Nick Jones [01:23:23] do the sacrament ordinance differently. You know, when you're sitting on the stand, you see everyone, and when you recognize that while the sacrament hymn is being sung and the bread is being broken, and even while it's being blessed, people are on their phones and they could be reading the scriptures, but they're probably playing Candy Crush, you know, And

Jedd Kassing [01:23:43] I was playing Candy Crush.

John Dehlin [01:23:45] Wait, is it bishop on the stand? Oh, yeah, this bishop's gone wild. This is an episode of Bishops God. Keep going.

Nick Jones [01:23:54] So I was like, we have to change the dynamic. Because for our word, Christ was the center. He was always the topic of discussion. It was never anything but Christ. And the reason we're there is the sacrament, which is centered in Christ.

Nick Jones [01:24:09] Well, we have this ritualistic thing where we have a sacrament hymn. The bread's broken while the priests stand up, they break the bread while the song's being sung. Then they blessed the bread and water. And I thought, well, let's do things different. Let's sing a hymn.

Nick Jones [01:24:25] And then in just pure meditative silence, let's break the bread. Bless the bread, administer it. Bless the water, administer it. And it Was like a pin could drop. Like, everybody was like, this is awesome. It was totally different.

Nick Jones [01:24:43] But of course, after a month of that, I just said, I want to do things different. That whole month, I said, I want to do things different. I went to Moroni 6. If you feel like preaching, preach. If you like praying, pray.

Nick Jones [01:24:53] Quit having this agenda for sacrament. And so I said, I'm not going to ask anybody this month to speak. If we need to sit up here in silence, well, then we'll sit in silence. But let's just go with the Spirit. And while we're at it, let's do the sacrament differently. Let's focus on him rather than pick Candy Crush or whatever else, you know, change things up so we can rekindle why we're there.

Nick Jones [01:25:21] It was so powerful until one member complained to a Stake Presidency member. He's a rogue bishop doing a bad thing. He's grown a beard. And I did. And you know why I grew a beard? Because my wife thinks I'm hotter with a beard. And because of that, Jesus wore a

John Dehlin [01:25:39] beard, but Brigham Young wore a beard. Every Mormon prophet from, like, Brigham Young to, like, whoever was right before David O. McKay, they all wore beards.

Jedd Kassing [01:25:49] What the freak church, given our current

Nick Jones [01:25:51] state president's, like, as long as it's well groomed, grow a beard. He's totally nuanced in that area.

Jedd Kassing [01:25:56] But

Nick Jones [01:25:59] I was blown away because in the handbook, it says a song is sang while the bread is broken. And that's what this little tight ass sorry turned to. And he shut it down. It was a counselor, and people were heartbroken. They were like, man, wait, this is

John Dehlin [01:26:19] one of your bishopric councils?

Nick Jones [01:26:21] State presidency member checking.

John Dehlin [01:26:22] Oh, okay, okay.

Nick Jones [01:26:24] And they said no more. And members were mad about it,

Jedd Kassing [01:26:30] but

Nick Jones [01:26:31] I was just trying new things because new things are what helped develop getting out of the repetitious garbage that we tend to just repeat over and over and over again. But they wouldn't even let that happen. I mean, for crying out loud, it took an extra two minutes out of the meeting, and it made all the difference in the spirit of the meeting. And here's the thing that made me the most mad. I was like, have you been to the warden? Experienced it firsthand? They never had. Yeah, they just shut it down.

Jedd Kassing [01:27:05] Right?

Nick Jones [01:27:07] So, like, you. I mean, we were trying new things. We were doing new things to try to. And I. I pray to God that Stake presidents and bishops are watching this and they do something like this, because this is what these people are craving. They're literally coming to church every Sunday. Looking for something to help them feel like they're going to make it through to the next week.

Jedd Kassing [01:27:27] Yep.

Nick Jones [01:27:27] And most of the time, they leave empty.

Beau Oyler [01:27:29] Yeah. They want to be fed.

Nick Jones [01:27:31] They want to be fed.

Jedd Kassing [01:27:32] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:27:33] So feed them.

Beau Oyler [01:27:34] Did you.

Jedd Kassing [01:27:36] Did you get any feedback from your ward because of the beard? And I'm asking that because I had almost every. Well, the people that wouldn't shake my hand. There's that group. And then almost all the youth would come up and say, you're just more approachable because you seem real. And I'd be up there wearing a, you know, a pink tie or a bow tie. I just try to be me, really.

John Dehlin [01:28:00] And my Mormon brain's concerned about you, Bishop.

Jedd Kassing [01:28:04] It should be. I don't know how I ever got in there.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] Right. Traditional time.

Jedd Kassing [01:28:09] Yeah. And I'd wear a bow tie and I'd wear. And people would be. And at one point, my. One of my counselors had a big old ZZ Top beard, and the other one had a big ponytail. And in Salt Lake Valley. Salt Lake Valley. And the. The members, like, especially the youth loved it. Like, they would come up and they're like, we feel like we can come talk to you. And I was like, that alone right there is enough to keep this going. But then again, there was one person who said that took away from the spirit of the meeting and complained to a stake president member in a temple recommend interview.

Jedd Kassing [01:28:45] And then it came back and we had a big blow up about it. But that's when I refused to never shave again. I was like, we're done with that. That conversation's over. And for the most part, we just stayed up there looking the same way. But a lot of people in the ward really appreciated it. And I'm just curious if you had something like that. It was weird because it was very. It's a bipolar issue having a beard.

Nick Jones [01:29:07] It's a very divided thing. Like, you get people who are like, I love this bishop because he's willing to put himself out there and be vulnerable. And then you got other people. Like, man, he makes me really uncomfortable, and I don't know how to react to that. And. And you could feel that from the people and how they interact with you.

John Dehlin [01:29:22] So, I mean, Bishop Bo, did you get innovation pushback?

Beau Oyler [01:29:28] Very much so, yeah. Very much so. And there were things that I said and just changed that just needed to be changed. For me, the first year, I feel like, was kind of like a hunkering down to orthodoxy, which I was raised orthodox Mormon, and so it was kind of just a safety in the handbook type thing. I read it, I pushed it aside, I gained my confidence. And then I just decided, I'm going to do what the spirit directs. And that was it. And I got my hand slapped multiple times. I got called into the stake presidency multiple times, which they loved me. The stake presidency loved me.

Beau Oyler [01:30:01] But it was also, like, when I would get called in, it's like, okay, like, you know, easy down samba, and that's okay. I was okay with that. And I think that's what bishops need to do. There's this. I've heard multiple bishops say something along the lines of, like, well, we haven't received instruction on that.

Beau Oyler [01:30:19] Right. And it's like, perfect, perfect. If you haven't received instruction, that means you get to do whatever the spirit tells you to do. You get to do whatever you want to do. Whatever's right for your people, you now get to do. So do it. Do it. Gain the confidence to lead your people and not wait for a handbook to change, or not wait for the general authority or the stake president or whoever external source is gonna tell you what to do. Because guess what? It's gonna be different whoever is assigned to you that day. So great beard story. Marlon K. Jensen, when he came to Berkeley and came to the Oakland stake on his.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] And this guy was a general. Was church historian.

Beau Oyler [01:31:01] Yes. So. And this was 2012. I don't remember when it was, but I was a young bishop, and it was like, cool, you know, elder Jensen's coming. So he came to our state conference, and then he held, like, a fireside kind of on the side.

Beau Oyler [01:31:14] And it was at the Berkeley chapel. And it was like, I invited my evangelical friends. It was all about church history. And it was about in, like, supposedly he was going to talk about how the church was coming clean on church history. And so we were like, let's go.

Beau Oyler [01:31:28] And so. And so he did. He did talk about how the church, it was going to be a new era of church, of transparency for the church. But one of the things that he did, and this is my beard story that I thought was great, is he had all of the bishops stand up in the leadership training, whatever, for state conference and introduce ourselves. And so here I was, like, this kid, and I'm just, like, trying to remember my own name, introducing myself. And then Matt Marastica, who's this amazing, super nuanced guy. He's the Berkeley ward bishop. He stands up and he's got this beautiful beard, right?

Beau Oyler [01:32:03] And he introduces himself. I'm Bishop Maurastica Berkeley Ward sits back down. So we all introduce ourselves. There's like 11 units or something like that. And then Marlon Kagenson, he goes, would the brother with the beard please stand back up? And we're all just going, oh, no.

Beau Oyler [01:32:20] And so Matt stands back up and he. And Marlene El Jesse goes, I just want you to know that that is a beautiful beard.

Nick Jones [01:32:28] I love that.

Beau Oyler [01:32:30] That's all. Just want you to know that. And I said, that was so cool that the area or the general authority is giving a shout out to our bishop who has the confidence against anyone who's telling him to shave or any of his ward members who think he's apostate by having a beard that he, that bishop has the confidence to know who he is and what his flavor of bishop is to wear that beard. And that one time, and probably only one time in his five years of serving as bishop was he validated. And I thought it was pretty cool.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] It's a good story.

Nick Jones [01:33:06] You know, what I notice so much is you'll call the Stake Presidency, and often the advice is use the spirit of discernment. Bishop. Except for when they don't like the way you discern, you know?

Beau Oyler [01:33:19] Yep.

Nick Jones [01:33:20] It's like good discernment. When they like it.

Beau Oyler [01:33:22] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:33:22] But when they don't like it, it's like.

John Dehlin [01:33:24] And that's every member?

Jedd Kassing [01:33:26] Yeah, always.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] Yeah.

Rob Gorman [01:33:28] So this, this corporate comment I made earlier when I was in the Stake Presidency, we would use things like beards on bishops, not white shirts on priests, to discern people. Better word, detect people who were coming out of the lane.

Rob Gorman [01:33:47] And when you visit a ward once every. For us, every 10 weeks, or if you doubled up on a day, but you visit and you see these things, you see non conformity, it provides an opportunity to ask the question, what else is not being conformed with? And you start getting into how are funds being handled? How are the doctrines of the Church being handled? I had that mindset as part of what I did, roaming from ward to ward, supporting the bishops in what they're doing. And some of them would do things that were innovative and so forth. But I agree, not too innovative, because the handbook says these things.

Rob Gorman [01:34:33] I think that is a problem, that the way policy and doctrine are promulgated within the church, they allow some room. And they expect stake presidencies to monitor what the congregations are doing under the bishop because they do have some latitude. Not because they're granted latitude, but because there's vagueness in the statements that are in the policy documents.

Beau Oyler [01:35:00] Absolutely. And they know what they're looking for. Just like you did as a stake presidency member. You knew what you were looking for. And there are dog whistley things that you can look for or ask for to know who your loyal next leaders are. I remember I had no idea how a stake president was called, but I'd been serving as bishop for a few years. And then I went to a bishop's council meeting which happened every few months. And the state president handed out these one sheeter papers and it was an application for stake president.

Beau Oyler [01:35:34] And I was like, what is this? And so we were all to take them home and fill them out because the new stake president was going to be called and a general authority was going to be coming into town and he wanted to interview all of the past bishops, current bishops, high council and stake presidency members.

Beau Oyler [01:35:53] And so we all filled out our applications and it was literally like a job application. And then, and then we were all to show up at the chapel at a certain time. And so it was interesting. I showed up at the chapel and I walked in the room and there was this elder who I recognized. I had listened to multiple of his conference talks and I actually really enjoyed his talks. And so I was kind of excited to meet him. And he was like 6 foot 7, like Idaho farm boy. I walk in and he looks at me and his first question was, how old are you?

Beau Oyler [01:36:27] And I said, I'm 35. Oh, okay. You look like you're 25. Okay, have a seat. So we sit down and he starts looking at my thing and going down. He's asking me questions, questions, questions. And then he goes, is your wife an activist?

Beau Oyler [01:36:49] I said, is my wife an activist? What do you mean? I don't understand the question. And he said, is your wife an activist? And I said, my wife is not an activist. I don't know where you're going with this, but my wife is not on social media. She's not super vocal. Like, my wife is a feminist. My wife is very opinionated. She's not an activist. And he goes, okay.

Stake President Oversight and Pressure

Beau Oyler [01:37:19] And what I learned was one more thing that he asked me. He said, what do the members of the Oakland Stake need? And I gave an answer about inclusivity and love and coming unto Christ. And I felt good about it. And then I left. And that night we had our Oakland Stake priesthood leadership training meeting. And he came in and he came in like tearing into that meeting to rebuke us as priesthood leaders. And he said, I met with 20, 25 of you today. And he said, you all Think in the Oakland stake that you are so special.

Beau Oyler [01:37:59] That's what you think he said, I travel the world, I go to state conferences all over the world. And I'm telling you right now, you are not special. What you need to learn is that you need to learn to follow the prophet. That's what you need to learn to do.

Nick Jones [01:38:15] That's just evil.

Beau Oyler [01:38:16] Not be inclusive, not bring everyone in or whatever other answers you gave me. You need to learn to follow the prophet, period. And we were all just like 12 year old little boys, just like, okay, sorry. And I learned that day what they were looking for, or at least what he was looking for. Right. And the loyalty and his question about my wife being an activist and what a dog whistle y thing that was to ask

John Dehlin [01:38:54] as soon as Bo was, sorry, Jed, I'll come right to you. But as you were telling that story, a powerful story, I looked right at Rob, because what that reminds me of is boot camp. Yeah, right. And it's like chain of command.

Jedd Kassing [01:39:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:39:08] Let's just make sure everybody knows at the end of the day who's in charge for sure. You were, you were nodding, Rob. Were you thinking that or not?

Rob Gorman [01:39:16] It comes across that way. I mean, it's a hierarchical organization. And when, when one accepts, I continue with the Navy analogy. When one accepts that the commanding officer of a ship has the say, but delegates that authority to people unless they get out of line. And you can see that kind of behavior in the church, I do agree with that. I think that there was an expectation, certainly from me as a bishop and then again in the Stake Presidency, to reinforce it, of complying with what the brethren, it was follow the prophet, but it was also the brethren, when they would come and say something, it was something we were expected to take a turn on and, and do better, more of whatever the adjective is.

John Dehlin [01:40:06] But Judd, really quick.

Jedd Kassing [01:40:07] Yeah. I was using add to Bo's story about that process of calling a new stake President. And I went through one round of that and my wife told me recently that she felt guilty that I didn't get promoted into the Stake Presidency or a stake President because of something she was doing because of her faith not being strong enough. And she felt that they, they knew that. And so to go to that question about your wife, is she an activist? Like it it that patriarchy carries through. And, and my wife felt a burden and a guilt for me not getting a calling. And I mean, that's just like, like you said, it's evil. Like, that's just harsh that she would have Any type of feeling for me not getting a promotion, that doesn't make any sense to me. But that's just the nature of how these callings work.

Nick Jones [01:41:04] Let's take just a second and recognize, because I've been a part of that process of calling a new stake president and the application. And there's a list of names that they say in the order they're going to be interviewed and the time slots in which they'll be interviewed. And everybody's in there thinking, oh, I know it won't be me. But they're all thinking, God, let it be me.

Jedd Kassing [01:41:28] And.

Nick Jones [01:41:29] And what's sad to me is that they only take 20 to 25 of the top men in the stake to be interviewed. So I want to take just a minute and recognize the 3,000 people that know that's happening and that they didn't make the list and how harmful that is for their psyche and how harmful it is for them to feel like, man, I've got to really step up my game and be better. Which means that masturbation thing I'm struggling with, I got to can that or that. That drink I have, I got to get rid of that thing or that little sip of coffee. That's the reason I'm not part of that group of men.

Jedd Kassing [01:42:11] Yep.

Nick Jones [01:42:12] That is toxic in so many ways, and it's just so unhealthy. I can remember so many men feeling like, oh, you know, and they come to you and they kind of tell you, like, you know, I was going to be. But it's just terrible to think.

Nick Jones [01:42:26] So there's that. And is it okay if I just go back to the masturbation thing for a minute? Not that I'm, like, hung up on it, but I know if there are current leadership members watching this, I feel a little bit of a. A little hypocrisy on my own end because I had person after person come to me with that problem. Right. And my answer was, have you told your wife, you know, or stop doing it? And the reality was, I had an occasional problem with that, but I would justify it by saying, yeah, but I'm doing a lot of good, so mine is pardoned, but theirs is not.

Nick Jones [01:43:09] I can near guarantee you that there are countless bishops and stake presence who are doing this very same thing. I want you to know that. Be vulnerable. This sucks for me to sit in front of a camera and do this live. It's embarrassing.

Nick Jones [01:43:26] But I don't care anymore because it means more to me to let people know that they're okay. That there's nothing wrong with them. Even if they're in that position and do that thing, there's nothing wrong with you. And for those who are finding this out, who I counseled with and think that I'm a hypocrite, I am telling you, yes, I am, 100%. And I had to live with that. That's all. Sorry.

Beau Oyler [01:44:08] It's amazing how similar all of our experiences are. The details, the people, they're different. But the experiences are so similar. Really is amazing. And as I'm listening to you, I'm just thinking, oh, brother, you don't need to feel guilty for masturbating. You just. You're married. Like, talk to your wife, have a contract, own your own sexuality, take some Jennifer Finlayson fife courses and you're good, bro.

John Dehlin [01:44:38] Can I just say, Margi doesn't want to know. She doesn't care. But she also doesn't want to be my policeman because that's not good for our relationship.

Beau Oyler [01:44:46] That's not.

Jedd Kassing [01:44:46] That's really. Maybe one of the things I feel the worst about as bishop was putting couples in a position where they were policing each other like that.

John Dehlin [01:44:56] Because it also increases the very behavior that the church would want stamped out.

Jedd Kassing [01:45:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:03] If the church wants to increase masturbation, put the spouse in charge of the other spouses masturbation, and it's going to go sky, skyrocket.

Beau Oyler [01:45:11] Yeah. And if you want to absolutely, like, completely shut down one of the spouse's libido, put them in charge of the other spouses libido.

Nick Jones [01:45:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] Right, right. Likewise, you need to be available for your husbands.

Beau Oyler [01:45:26] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Or they're going to masturbate. Look at porn.

Beau Oyler [01:45:28] Exactly. And then they completely shut down.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:45:31] So I'm not alone in this. Is that. Is that true?

Jedd Kassing [01:45:34] You are not true.

Nick Jones [01:45:35] And I'm not trying to throw people under the bus here, but I. I feel like people need to hear that.

Beau Oyler [01:45:39] Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that tactically there's. There are resources that we don't talk about very openly. And as we begin to expand our faith, either out of necessity or out of curiosity, what happened when I was bishop is I began to collect resources that I didn't know existed and I had to find them on my own. Right. So there's no cheat sheet. So one example is I had this wonderful sister who kept coming to me and it was like, not monthly, but maybe quarterly meetings. And she would come and book an hour with me. And it was like she was hitting this wall in her spirituality where she was doing all of the things.

Beau Oyler [01:46:23] She was temple worthy, she was great mom. She was serving scriptures, all this stuff, right? Check, check, check, check, check. And yet, month after month after month, she just felt like there was this wall between her and God.

Beau Oyler [01:46:37] And so we'd have these check ins again and again and again. And I had this big whiteboard in my office that I installed, and we'd map everything out. And finally, out of desperation, I remember one night just being like, you know what?

Beau Oyler [01:46:49] Like, we were the blind leading the blind. We're the exact same age. I just said, you know what? You're doing all of the things and they're not doing anything for you. And I walked up to the board and I just wiped the board clean.

Beau Oyler [01:47:04] And I said, if these aren't working for you, you need to go find what is. And I gave her a blessing and I sent her on her way. And after these meetings, for a long time, she came back to me about a month or two later. And it was the first time that I saw any amount of spiritual progression because she was now doing things outside of the checklist that were actually feeding her soul.

Beau Oyler [01:47:33] And they were the things that were not taught to her in church. They were not the Deseret approved or church approved books. And what I learned was there's this whole thing called faith expansion. And there's this whole thing about thinking and looking into the shadows and beginning to explore and be curious. And so I began to be curious.

Beau Oyler [01:48:01] And there are great resources for members of the church who are active members of the church who are curious. There's an entire podcast called Faith Matters. There's an entire conference called Restore, in which people like Thomas McConkey and Jennifer Finlayson Fife and Patrick Mason and people who are thinking are speaking and expanding faith. And it is a safe place to explore, and it is a safe place to expand. And so topics from sexuality to Brian McLaren's faith stages, it's safe for members to go and begin to explore their faith and their sexuality and to begin to think.

John Dehlin [01:48:46] Today's Mormon story is brought to you by RESTORE and Kidnappers. I'm sure they're thrilled.

Beau Oyler [01:48:52] And the reason I'm saying that, though, right, is to your point, where it's just like, we have these blocks and we don't know what resources we have. And so we just keep doing the same thing again and again and again. And then there's even deeper cut resources, like Mormon stories, right? Like Natasha Helfer, like people who. It's like, hey, once you're ready to cut a little deeper LDS discussions. Like there's, it's like now you're ready to go, now you're ready to dive in, now you're ready to look behind the veil. And those are very helpful resources. And then you get to decide what you do with them. We're all reading the same stuff, we're all listening to the same podcast and we get to decide what we do with those things. Bishops get to do that now as bishops and then help their people who are still coming to them, navigate their faith expansion.

Rob Gorman [01:49:45] Wouldn't it be great if it did depend on forward thinking people holding callings or the bishop roulette rolling right for you? Wouldn't it be great if there were actual paid for, formal, established resources that ecclesiastical leaders could turn to when a member comes to them and they don't have to shoot from the hip or depend on their discernment? I think that is one of the best things that could be done for bishops and other ecclesiastical leaders. But for bishops to actually have resources that provide some of this expansion that Boaz alluded to, those just aren't available. You have to go out on a limb and you have to be unable to go find those things if you're going to provide them to the members of your ward. Wouldn't it be great if that was part of the system?

John Dehlin [01:50:40] And that's one of the questions. I've got so many questions here I want to talk about. We could literally go all day and I'm okay for going as long as we want. But like the Mormon church in 2024 is certainly worth a quarter of a trillion dollars, certainly beyond question, $250 billion minimum.

The Lack of Training for Bishops

John Dehlin [01:50:59] Like they could afford top notch world class training of their bishops, thousand percent, but they don't. So the, and they almost brag about the fact that their bishops are quote, lay clergy. And isn't that awesome that we can pull a plumber or a lawyer or a doctor or dentist out and they're leading a congregation and unlike those Protestants or those Catholics, you know, who have to have training our bishops. So the church is almost like flexing. But, but my first, like the first thing I'm dying to understand is why don't they just provide kick ass world class comprehensive training? And in my mind it's a couple things.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] It's, it's, it's not that they don't have money. So could it be that they don't want the liability that as soon as they assume more responsibility for the training, then the bishops follow what they do or don't recommend. And, and then, and then when the bishop gets sued by the member for doing what the church headquarters told them to do, that it increases liability. Like I don't know how it's. So that's one possible explanation. Another possible explanation is that they, the brethren can't agree on what bishops could or should do. So Packer wants white shirts and ties and Marlon Jensen or Holland is okay with beards.

John Dehlin [01:52:25] And so they just avoid the drama. That's a second option. A third option is that they want, they know they need flexibility between Berkeley, Cambridge and, and Manhattan and freaking Draper and Lehigh and you know, Logan and freaking Bountiful. And what's the one where Mike Lee lives? Alpine, you know, Provo, you know what I'm saying? And so they, they intentionally, like with this Charlie Bird, Ryan, whatever, where a same sex married couple is like literally taking the sacrament holding callings in a ward where, where for decades these couples

Beau Oyler [01:53:09] were excommunicated or for decades they've been doing that in the Berkeley and Oakland stake.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] Right. But it's like that, what if, what if it's like intentional ambiguity to just keep the wheels on the wagon and keep the church from fracturing and fragmenting. Those are three of probably a gazillion different. Rob's jumping into.

Rob Gorman [01:53:29] I want to provide a fourth.

John Dehlin [01:53:31] Okay.

Rob Gorman [01:53:31] And I'm going to paint another end of a spectrum. Last calling I held in the church was as the stake technology specialist. I'm kind of geeky with gadgets. I understand those things and I live with those around me.

Rob Gorman [01:53:48] So I was called to do that. And this was in the time when we started broadcasting sacrament meetings and started doing webcasting and so forth. And that was brand new at that time. We had to put these new switches, boxes effectively in the networks in the building. It was my job to go to the different, the five buildings we have and install those. And as I prepared for that, I had to spend a considerable amount of time learning what it was, how to do it, get the equipment there, how to troubleshoot. And I got to building five and I could not figure it out. So I called the facilities manager that would help me and he says, well, I've got a contractor in there, he'll be over there in about 20 minutes.

Rob Gorman [01:54:33] And that guy took, I'm not kidding you, he took 15 minutes to do what I had spent weeks working on a similar thing. We clean our own buildings. We're now being asked to clean the temples or members are being asked to clean the temples. So at this end of the spectrum, I think it is. About how much money does it cost?

Rob Gorman [01:54:56] I don't think it is. It may be as deep as you were alluding to, John. My cynicism thinks it is. We can save a buck if we do it this way. The Bishops aren't doing too bad, so we don't have to spend that money. Yep. We have these things that occur occasionally, but we can resolve them and solve them and sweeping on the rug's too dramatic, but I'll say it anyway, so I think it's shallower than what you're alluding to, frankly.

John Dehlin [01:55:23] So. Cheapskates.

Rob Gorman [01:55:25] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:55:26] Is that what you're saying?

Rob Gorman [01:55:28] I didn't say that. But that word is not inappropriate.

Jedd Kassing [01:55:31] Okay, I'll just add to that thought. I got officially trained on one thing and it was how to count tithing. That was it. No other trainings that were official other than this is how you count the money and you better have two people in there doing it and you better see every dollar that goes into that envelope and get it into the bank as fast as you can. That was it. No other training. And so I. I agree with Rob, that cheapskate or. But, you know, there's something there where it sure feels like the money is more important than the people.

Nick Jones [01:56:10] Lay ministry keeps the membership dependent on the church leadership and headquarters. And that's just simple as that. You know, you start teaching at a local level, these kinds of things, they're going to start to see the dysfunction.

Rob Gorman [01:56:25] I'm going to pile on a little guaranteed call the stake president will get is if a ward doesn't make a deposit on Sunday, they will get that call on Monday.

John Dehlin [01:56:38] It's like where your concern is, there's your heart also kind of thing. Sure. And it's. You're saying it's with the money first too much. Does everybody agree with that?

Nick Jones [01:56:48] Okay, can I tell you guys something? When I was. When I stepped down, I had planned on going 2, 3, 4 weeks until the new bishop was called. I'm gonna make stake president mad here, but I'm gonna say it.

Nick Jones [01:57:04] Neither of my counselors were contacted. You had a bishop who stood up, who went rogue. And two days went by and they sat wondering, what are we going to do? It wasn't until my stake present was contacted. And you want to know what the only counsel was given?

Nick Jones [01:57:27] Don't let him collect the tithing or don't collect tithing that week. That's it. Not, hey, you conduct. Let's do some damage control. Let's do this, let's do that. It was. Let's just tell people to hold on to their envelopes.

Nick Jones [01:57:46] That. That really frustrated me. It's like, where's the concern? Is it the people? Because you have a broken ward right now. And let me tell you, who was it who talked about it? It was like a funeral after your bishop died and you were called to be bishop. I've gotten reports. I've got spies in the ward because there are people in the ward who are very nuanced or who are. What is it? Pimos P I M O. Physically and mentally out. Physically in. Mentally out.

Trauma, LGBTQ Members, and Pastoral Struggles

Beau Oyler [01:58:15] Who are like.

Nick Jones [01:58:15] It was like a funeral.

Beau Oyler [01:58:17] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:58:17] It was damage control. A member of the state presidency said, hey, if anybody has any issues with what's happened, we will meet after church and almost have, like, a, you know, rescue. So I have hopes that, like you said, you know, because it was so traumatic, the trauma brings unity because the Brandon ward in Mississippi needs that more than ever now.

Rob Gorman [01:58:44] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:58:44] I care that they have that.

Jedd Kassing [01:58:46] Yeah.

Nick Jones [01:58:46] I don't want them to fail. I don't want them to suffer. I don't want them to feel like because I did this thing that they can't function anymore at a level that they need to so that they can thrive in life. So I love that you said that, because it made me feel like, oh, I didn't just ruin the ward, you know?

Beau Oyler [01:59:08] Yeah, they'll grow through this. They will. They'll grow through this. So I think that as I put myself in the perspective of someone listening, or I think about my parents or my siblings or my ward members listening to our episode, I think about the people who I served, who I love, and many of which I still minister to and serve. I have many people who were in my ward that I was bishop to who still call me and we go to breakfast or we go to lunch or we go to coffee, or we get together and we just talk, and I still have the privilege of ministering and listening to them.

Beau Oyler [01:59:44] And I think about them listening to this episode, Right? And on one hand, I think that someone could listen to this and think, oh, these guys are just bringing up all the negative stuff, and they're just tired, or they're just cynical or they're just bitter, or they're just exmo or they're just whatever.

Beau Oyler [02:00:01] Why are they even giving any energy to this? Why can't they just leave it alone? How would you answer that? How would each of you answer that? Why are we doing this?

Nick Jones [02:00:16] I can go first just because I addressed this yesterday. I can't leave it alone because I see that it's hurting people that I care about, that I love. And the sad thing is you can reach out to them and tell them things, but I'm learning that I can't even force that on them. I can just let them know I'm here for them. And in time, maybe whatever example I've been since I've stepped away can be of significant help for them. But that's painful, if I'm completely honest.

John Dehlin [02:00:51] Yeah.

Jedd Kassing [02:00:53] Yeah. And like, like I alluded to a little earlier, we as bishop get to be such a integral part in these great celebrations of life with the members in your ward. By necessity, I felt multiple times that I was showing up to a baby blessing just because I had to be there. By doctrine, that family didn't really care for me to be there. You know, they, they, they. I guess I shouldn't say that. I might feel like maybe they didn't want me there, but.

Jedd Kassing [02:01:27] But those experiences were so powerful and touching to me, and I wish my, My experience. Since leaving the church, we weren't very vocal about it. We didn't make big Facebook posts or anything. We told about a dozen family and friends and kind of left it at that. And then word just spreads.

Jedd Kassing [02:01:49] But we have had zero contact from the ward. We've had people when we go on a walk that will turn around and go into their house. We've had a few people that will pull up behind us and say, hey, we miss you. We'd love to see you come back.

Jedd Kassing [02:02:03] But we haven't had really any great outpouring one way or the other, with the exception of a few little cases there. And so why, you know, why I want to come here is to maybe to. To give a peek behind the, the curtain a little bit to, to see.

Jedd Kassing [02:02:24] But it's not, it's not a glamorous position. It's really hard. It's emotional in all the ways. You see people at their highest of highs and their lowest of lows, and it doesn't get talked about enough. I remember going on my mission thinking that missionaries were these just amazing angels, could do no wrong, you know, and my first companions, just a screw off. And I'm like, wow, what in the. This is not at all what I thought this was going to be, but that's good. We need to show that. We need to show the humanity of the people. The church shouldn't be, in my opinion, so rigid and buttoned up that there's these real issues that People have.

Jedd Kassing [02:03:08] And I look back on those issues of helping people through. We had a primary president who got cancer and died within two months. And to see the outpouring of love and the group and the ward coming together. And one of her counselors said, can we just do a second primary program?

Jedd Kassing [02:03:28] Because that's what would make her feel best, is to hear these kids sing again. I'm like, are you? Heck, yeah. Right now. Get it up there. Let's do this. And so you have. I. I don't want to sound all Debbie Downer on it and all negative, because there were these great experiences of expressions of love and service and helping, and I'm so grateful that I had that chance to do it. Sadly, there's just this dark underbelly that. That you have to navigate as well, that deserves and needs to be spotlighted as well.

Nick Jones [02:04:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:01] Yeah.

Nick Jones [02:04:02] I would say current members of the church, when you finish, come follow me for the week and finish reading the Book of Mormon and whatever else that you've got. Gospel related. Pick up Bernee Brown's the Power of Vulnerability and read it, listen to it, memorize it, because it's as much scripture as anything you'll ever read.

Nick Jones [02:04:29] And I would say any of her books and a number of other people who've just given us gifts. That's the thing I have an issue with, because we're always told, just study these things. We don't branch off into the healthy stuff that helps us develop in life and be more successful, not financially, but just successful at life.

Nick Jones [02:04:49] There's a story where her daughter's in a public place towards the end of the book, and she's kind of just dancing goofy in front of people. And she was a little embarrassed at first, but then something came to her. And in Mormonism, we'd say the spirit came to Bernee and said, don't you betray her.

Nick Jones [02:05:08] She started to dance with her. We need to dance more. We need to be vulnerable. We need to come out in public and just lay out the vulnerabilities that we're dealing with, because you'd be shocked to find that everybody else is exactly the same. And it isn't a vice when you out actually becomes the thing that frees you from the prison that it's put you in.

John Dehlin [02:05:36] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [02:05:36] I love Brene. Rob, how about you?

Rob Gorman [02:05:40] Well, one of the things that John said was, why can't we leave it alone? I distanced myself from the church right after we got released out of the Stake Presidency. And one of the things that was pivotal And I won't tell the whole story about this. Just mark the time. Was the 2015 policy about baptizing children that we as a stake presidency. My habit, my pattern that I had lived was we would receive a letter and maybe even a conference of some sort to understand what was changing in the handbook when it's of a significant nature that this was. But we didn't get that. And I couldn't address the questions that my daughter, who was a student,

Jedd Kassing [02:06:40] Who

Rob Gorman [02:06:40] was a student at BYU any deeper than the rhetoric that I had been given in response to when John broadcast what was going on. And that's emotional and I'm, I'm. I regret that it's in a better place. But why can't I leave it alone?

Rob Gorman [02:07:03] Frankly, I have left it alone. There was opportunity. I just happened to be in town and I saw John's post about wanting to interview former current bishops. So I responded and I, I pick up some of these emotions, including anger afresh.

Rob Gorman [02:07:40] And I don't have time for it. I am going to set it back down. I will talk to people about my experience and that's why I came here today. It isn't that my experience is defining for anyone but me and my family probably, but maybe hearing some of the experience that I have had and these other now friends sitting around me have had and recognizing how similar there are, one cannot avoid wondering what the threat is that makes them so similar and trying to draw conclusions to what should shift so those threads no longer connect. These experiences that people asked to lead and resolve personal private issues with people there. There is, There are questions that are being asked in quiet rooms and ignored in places where they should not be ignored.

Jedd Kassing [02:08:47] Yes.

Rob Gorman [02:08:48] So will I not leave it alone? Who knows? I may get interested in talking about this in a venue like this some other time, but I think it is completely important that this not just these grumpy old men sitting in front. Well, I guess I can just speak for myself. But these, these men who had negative experiences were just those four isolated cases. Don't fool yourself. Don't fool yourself that this is isolated or one offs or four offs. This is common experience that, that if you dig, you will see it. And there are people who are being hurt directly and there are people who, whose lives are shifted into the negative with good intent.

Rob Gorman [02:09:39] I'm thinking of my children and the scrupulosity that I expected of them when they were my children and I was bishop. Those issues still exist. Now having said that and risking cliche again when you know better do better.

Rob Gorman [02:10:08] I think things in my relationship with my children, my wife, most of it very good, is considerably better now that I have remove this very constricted view of what is possible or where I should apply my effort as that aperture is opened. And I've allowed myself to think about things that are in some cases, restricted by the church.

Rob Gorman [02:10:39] My life has improved. And it isn't because I'm freer to do what I want to do. That is true. But it is also true that I have gained perspective I could not have had as a white male in this country by expanding my aperture and considering what my daughters think, what my wife thinks, what people of color think, because I can't experience their things until I ask them about it.

Rob Gorman [02:11:08] In the past, I was expecting them to come into the model that was the church, instead of me venturing into their world and understanding their perspective and seeing how broad and beautiful those things are.

Jedd Kassing [02:11:27] I'm really glad you brought that up, the opening the aperture, because that's something I'll always be grateful for. Being a bishop was being able to see the depths of humanity and to see all the different perspectives. I had an experience with a young man who came and told me about his struggle with being gay.

Jedd Kassing [02:11:51] And it helped me to. It really helped me to understand that one, the church is wrong on this subject, and two, that until you see. See the pain and feel the pain, you kind of are isolated and insulated from it.

Jedd Kassing [02:12:10] And to have that open up and I mean, this young man just basically told me that he's scared to pray, to find someone to fall in love with, because he doesn't want to have to choose between marrying the man that he would love versus the church.

Jedd Kassing [02:12:25] And I wouldn't have had that experience if I wasn't bishop. And I wouldn't have seen the pain and the heartache, the policies and the doctrine cause to that section of society, that wonderful, beautiful section of society. And I'm grateful that I was able to be allowed into this young man's life enough to start to understand that and grow from it. So there's a lot of good that comes from being bishop, and a lot that I'll look back on and always be happy and proud of.

Jedd Kassing [02:12:53] And then there's just also that other side that we've got to deal with and learn how to put down and put away or stand up and keep fighting for change.

Beau Oyler [02:13:04] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:13:05] Do you want to answer your question, Bo, or do you feel like enough has been said with that question?

Beau Oyler [02:13:10] You know, I don't know that it's that it's communicating through. Through the podcast. But in this room, it's impossible not to feel the love. It's palpable not to feel just the love between us because of our common experience, but the love that we feel and that each of us feel for the people that we served and that we continue to serve and love, it's impossible not to feel the love. And that's. That. That is what drives it. I mean, there's all the organization and the hierarchy and the patriarchy and all of that stuff, but at the end of the day, you feel what you feel. And of all the frustration and all the stuff, like you feel the love.

Nick Jones [02:14:01] You know, one of my fears stepping away was that I wouldn't feel that. That it would be stripped from me. I met Beau last night. I met Rob last night. Jed, did I meet you last night?

John Dehlin [02:14:16] Were you there?

Nick Jones [02:14:16] I didn't think you were there. There's a lot of people there. It was a little overwhelming. But the love I feel for these three guys, like, we sat before we came in here and just visited, just briefly, and it was an instant palpable love and admiration. And it's so freeing to recognize that it wasn't Mormonism that gifted me those feelings, but that they exist outside of it. And if I could even argue, they're magnified because there are no walls around that love based on what you have done or who you were, or what you were drinking. Or what you were drinking. Yeah. Or what you were wearing. It's so beautiful. It's so beautiful.

Jedd Kassing [02:15:08] I really appreciated your story yesterday, Nick,

John Dehlin [02:15:10] about

Jedd Kassing [02:15:13] going to the dispensary and meeting a girl that six months ago, you would have thought nothing about, and now is very helpful in you feeling better. And I kind of realized that I started to see the world more in full color when. When I was able to step away from the Mormon view.

Jedd Kassing [02:15:35] And just because someone has a few earrings or a tattoo or all these taboos and Mormonism, I just subconsciously would kind of other them and put them off to the side a little bit. But learning to embrace and talk and seeing how some of my daughter's friends were more comfortable in my home because they, you know, the picture of the temple came down, and that was an oppressive feeling to a young LGBT kid, knowing that that meant he was less than and was never going to be there, and then to see them and meet them where they were at, it is freeing. And. And the amount of love that you can feel for people, it just grew exponentially for me to.

Jedd Kassing [02:16:23] To see. It doesn't matter what you do for your job or how you do your hair or any of that. I can find out something about you and make a connection. And I can love you for who you are and not have to put this asterisk of be so much better with the gospel in their life. But they're great and perfect as they are, and to see the world that way has just been a great blessing, too. Cool.

Beau Oyler [02:16:55] Thanks, Jen. John, did you have any other questions that you wanted to.

Calls for More Former Bishops to Share Stories

John Dehlin [02:16:59] Oh, my gosh, my list is so big. So I'm just sitting here loving this so much. And I'm getting a lot of comments from viewers and listeners saying this is their favorite episode of Mormon Stories of all time. Now, I take umbrage with that. That's very offensive to me. No, it's not. But people are loving this. Yeah. But, like, I want to make this a series. Like, first of all, I want to have Relief Society presidents.

Beau Oyler [02:17:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:17:23] You know, a panel of Relief presidents, Stake Relief Society Presidents, to talk about their experiences in the church. Wouldn't that be amazing? And then there's so many questions I want to ask, but it would literally triple the time. Like, I want to know if all of you had advice for the church to make, because we all know the church, the Mormon Church is hemorrhaging along with a lot of other world religions, especially in the developed world. It'd be fun to hear each of you give advice to the church for how you would strengthen the church. I think that's a hard question, but it would be fun.

John Dehlin [02:17:56] There's clearly an epidemic of PIMO bishops and stake presidents, of bishops, of stake presidents that are losing their faith while they're bishops and stake presidents. Because they keep reaching out to me, you know, everyone, like, is this going to become a bigger and a bigger problem? Why is it such a big problem?

John Dehlin [02:18:14] Is there anything the church could do to either fix it or provide better support for that when it happens? I totally want to hear. I'll just tell a quick story once. I'm meeting with this early in the Mormon Stories life.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Maybe I've told the story before. I'm meeting with this prominent online Mormon, ex Mormon named Corey Kilpak, who's from the Bay Area, who was known as Mayan Elephant on the boards back in the day. And he told me this. I've never had, like, a metaphysical experience before, almost like this, where he's telling me about the time he presided over the excommunication of a. Let's just say a single woman for, like, having sex or whatever.

John Dehlin [02:18:58] And he's talking to me about how much he regrets presiding over her excommunication. And I kid you not, this was like a special effects moment, but in real time, his hands swelled to, like, three times their normal size as he was telling me the story. And it was like, hives. You know how people have hives? Like, I remember once Margi had hives so bad, her lips started swelling, and I'm like, whoa, your lip is, like, deformed. And it was hives. He got hives on his hands so bad that they swelled to, like, three times their normal size because he regretted so much what he did as a bishop or as a member of a Stake High Council or in a stake presidency.

John Dehlin [02:19:41] I would love to hear y' all talk about biggest regrets as bishops or, you know, in stake presidencies. There's so much more that. That. That I would want to hear, and I just don't know how much time we want to take today or if we want to save that for another time, you know?

Beau Oyler [02:20:02] Well, how much energy do we have, you guys?

Jedd Kassing [02:20:04] Is this a I'm here till Monday,

Beau Oyler [02:20:06] part one, part two, or is this a marathon?

John Dehlin [02:20:11] Here's what I want to do. If you are a woman or whatever gender you now identify with and you have been a Stake Relief Society president or Relief Society president, I want to do a panel. So reach out to me. Email me@mormonstoriesgmail.com. put former relief Society president or former Stake Relief Society president or women's auxiliary leader, whatever it is, and you want to come on a panel, we want to do that. So please reach out. Also, if you live in this area, because Rob goes back to Bremerton and. And Nick goes back to Mississippi. Mississippi. Right. If you are a former bishop, we want to do this panel again.

John Dehlin [02:20:55] So please reach out to me, especially if you live close to Salt Lake or visit, because I want to have this, maybe even be a recurring series. Please reach out to me. Put former Mormon bishop in an email to mormonstoriesmail.com and we want to hear from you as well.

Beau Oyler [02:21:12] I know there were other mission former

John Dehlin [02:21:14] mission presidents, former general authorities, former area authorities, former stake presidents. Like any of that. What were we saying about.

Beau Oyler [02:21:22] I was gonna say there's another bishop that I was talking to that I'd put some feelers out who wanted to be on, but just timing didn't work. So I know that there are many people out there who would like to be part of this discussion.

John Dehlin [02:21:32] Yeah. Yeah. Because I Do like the spirit of this. It's like you guys all have a palpable love for the church, but also a frustration that the church should be better. And that's Mormon stories at its best when. When we have love and compassion and. And best faith assumptions. Willing to be critical, but also willing to be generous. So I love the spirit of today. I don't know if y' all want to tackle any of the questions I just threw out there, but you asked Bo. Those are some of the questions I have. Yeah.

Regrets from Their Time as Bishop

Beau Oyler [02:22:06] I'll tell you.

Nick Jones [02:22:06] I'll.

Beau Oyler [02:22:06] I'll. I'll tackle the regret one.

John Dehlin [02:22:08] Okay.

Beau Oyler [02:22:08] I have so many regrets. Yeah, I do.

John Dehlin [02:22:11] Oh, I also want to know what caused you all to leave the church, just. Or transform your faith.

Jedd Kassing [02:22:16] But.

John Dehlin [02:22:16] But go ahead.

Beau Oyler [02:22:18] Yeah, absolutely. I'll. I'll start with regrets, and then also happy to address the second one as well. So I do have regrets. Most of my regrets happen at the beginning of being bishop, before I began to expand my faith. They almost all have to do with either coming down too hard on sexuality, on law of chastity and. Or finances, and just being a hard ass.

Beau Oyler [02:22:46] And there are five instances in particular in which, after being bishop, after I was released, I have hunted down three out of the five of those members and contacted them out of the blue and just said, hey, this is Beau Oyler. I was your bishop.

Beau Oyler [02:23:07] Would you mind if I called you? You know, or. I just called him. And those have turned into three out of the five so far. Have been just beautiful conversations where I called him and I just said, hey, I don't know if you remember this conversation.

Beau Oyler [02:23:21] Here's what I said. I see things totally differently now, and I'm really sorry that I bishoped you that way. I just did what I thought I was supposed to do. I was just following the handbook. And all three of them just said, oh, Bo, you gotta let that go. It's okay. You were just doing what you thought you needed to do. I'm okay. Thank you.

Nick Jones [02:23:50] Can I ask you, can you. Can you live? I'm supposed to look at the camera. Can you live without regrets and still make those reconciliations? Is my question. You know, I've got a green quote here. I'd love to just the. Sir Anthony Hopkins said he was asked the question, do you have any regrets? He says, no, I don't have time to regret. We move on because we are acceptable for what we are, not for what we think we should be. I'm acceptable in myself by what I am, but not as I think I should be, because that's a lie. I'm a sinner. I'm an old sinner.

Nick Jones [02:24:27] I've done some good things, I've done some bad things. So you just forgive yourself and you move on. So you can not regret things, but yet make reconciliations where they need to be met and not beat yourself up. Because we're trying to figure this thing out as we live it in the present.

Nick Jones [02:24:46] I think that's part of the problem, is we're too busy trying to be perfect instead of just recognizing that we can just be good. Good's better than perfect, actually.

Jedd Kassing [02:24:57] Agreed, Jed.

Beau Oyler [02:25:05] Rob, any regrets?

Jedd Kassing [02:25:08] I kind of lean towards that quote that Nick was just saying. I, I've said I, I don't regret my time as bishop at all. I'm positive I said something cringy and stupid to someone along the way. Multiple someones and some things.

Jedd Kassing [02:25:23] And as people have found out that I've left the church, there's been a few people in the ward who've reached out who have also left the church and just said, hey, it's nice seeing you here on the Mormon Stories Facebook page or ex Mormon Reddit or wherever. And I'll always take that opportunity to say, man, I hope I didn't offend you or hurt you in any way. I apologize if I did. But I, I feel like I tried my best to do as good as I could in that position and so I don't have any regrets. But I do fully recognize and admit that I know I did stuff I should regret.

Jedd Kassing [02:26:00] But I, I do like to give myself a little grace and being I was doing the best that I had with, with the circumstances at hand maybe. And I, I feel like I was a pretty liberal bishop and I was very liberal with fast offering funds. We had a lot of. At one point we had 70 single moms in our ward and probably 50 of them were pretty active. Holy Ghost. We had.

Jedd Kassing [02:26:30] Multiple, multiple, just fresh divorces. People coming into the ward at their absolute lowest. And we, we felt like this responsibility to build them back up and to help them get back on their feet. So I was constantly writing checks I didn't care about. Like my ward maybe brought in maybe $2,000 a month in fast offering funds and I was sending 10,000 out no problem. I didn't have any problem doing that. And I regret not doing more of it now knowing, you know, the, the coffer that we had to draw on.

Jedd Kassing [02:27:10] I regret cutting people off from help a little too soon. And then some things like that. Where I felt some pressure to do that. So my, my things that I truly regret are not helping people to the end and maybe caving into the system a little more than, than I would have liked to.

Jedd Kassing [02:27:27] My, my advice to the church, I've thought about this for a while, is maybe drop the, the one true church. If you get rid of that, you get rid of a whole bunch of pressure.

Nick Jones [02:27:40] You have to get rid of doctrine, conversation.

Jedd Kassing [02:27:43] There's a lot, there's more to that. You can't just say drop it. But if they could move away from that and respect people's spirituality and their journey for what it is and unique to them, I think it would be a much healthier organization. I, that's not happening. I don't see that happening ever. But I feel like that, that doctrine or that belief is harmful. It makes everything else less than and everyone else less than. And if they could soften that, quit talking about it, remove it, do something, I think that would help a lot. So that's probably my regret and recommendation.

Rob Gorman [02:28:29] I think I did as good as I could, as well as I could at the time. There are things that come to memory that I wish had been different. And I can in hindsight again, having experience now chart a path, it would be different. But John, John said in a tick tock or something I saw recently, and I don't know when you actually said this, but you had said the gift of a deconstruction is the rest of your life. And so I wish, you know, I look back and I wish I had taken more vacations with my children and my wife instead of being for 21 years every weekend with the youth on Saturday and on Sunday doing church stuff. I wish I'd done a better job of balancing those things. I wish I had subordinated my family to my church duties instead of the other way around.

Nick Jones [02:29:26] That's beautiful.

Rob Gorman [02:29:27] The church does say those things. Family first. But in the calling of bishop, that's, that's. It's a difficult balance to strike and I'll leave it at that. I did not do as well as I would have liked to.

Rob Gorman [02:29:42] I don't particularly. I've said a couple of things. I wish the church, wouldn't it be nice. But I would rather say something to people that are maybe in a bishop calling or maybe as a second counselor in the stake Sunday school. A friend of mine always joked about that being the best calling in the church.

Rob Gorman [02:30:04] If you've got things on the shelf, the proverbial shelf, it is harming you to keep them There you have to resolve those things that provide dissonance. Otherwise, you are making decisions and choices in your life based on bad information and assumptions that may end up being to your detriment.

Rob Gorman [02:30:30] I find that as I've stepped away from some of the narrow. The narrow path, the narrow gate, that I'm able to make better decisions and be more present today with people that I have relationships with. And even though we just met last night and just this morning, and John, we've met a few years ago, but it's been periodic, you know, an annual hour here or there.

Rob Gorman [02:31:00] But I find that as I have this open viewpoint now, the friendships are not based on are you worthy? Are you in the same lane as me? Are you like me? They are more of what does this relationship provide that is valuable to the both of us? And admittedly, there is times when I obtain more value than I give and the other way around. But that's the nature of relationships. As soon as you open your aperture and start looking at other characteristics that can enrich your life, it is. I don't know how to overstate how big that change in your life is when you have the ability to empathize, to value and not be judgmental, to be more curious about what that person's about.

Rob Gorman [02:31:55] So I regrets. I. I really do wish that I had done more with vacation time. The good news is I got to retire pretty young, and my wife and I are going to take advantage of that money we saved and put away and visit the kids and go do better, because I know better.

Beau Oyler [02:32:18] That's awesome. Thanks. Thank you for being vulnerable, you guys. I really, I appreciate it and I feel it. And I would say on the last, you know, the last question, John, of like, you know, why if we want to go there, you know, why have.

Faith Deconstruction After Leaving the Bishopric

Beau Oyler [02:32:39] Have some of you left the church and how have you expanded your faith? I love the idea of the aperture expanding and opening up. And that began for me when in my first year of being bishop and I came home from a long night of meetings. It was late. I crawled into bed and my wife had been crying.

Beau Oyler [02:33:03] She's not a crier. And she cuddled up next to me, and I said, honey, what's wrong? And she said, I can't tell you. And I said, you can tell me anything. I was just sitting for six hours with people telling me their deepest, darkest secrets.

Beau Oyler [02:33:22] And she said, I can't tell you. And so I just held her. And finally she told me. She said, both the church isn't what we think it is.

Nick Jones [02:33:36] It's like the most painful thing you can feel.

Beau Oyler [02:33:38] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:40] That your wife is feeling that or

Nick Jones [02:33:41] that you're feeling that just in general, that any, any individual is feeling it in general. It's, it's, it's, it's excruciating.

Beau Oyler [02:33:49] And so that began. And a curiosity that began to shift the way that we thought, thought to look at things that were. That we couldn't look at before, and then during that next four years was CES Letters, Church essays. It was exclusion policy. It was, you know, a lot of big events in. In Mormonism.

Beau Oyler [02:34:17] And instead of, you know, I was a great apologist, don't get me wrong. But we began to expand and began to explore and began to be curious and these fear tactics of where will you go? What will you do? There is nothing but sadness and misery out there. For some people, that is true.

Beau Oyler [02:34:44] That hasn't been my experience. And although I choose to continue to participate in the church, I choose how to participate, and I choose where I find value in my participation of the church. And I choose to spend the vast majority of my time participating in work that I find great value in, and that's outside of the church. And it's far.

Beau Oyler [02:35:09] It's a form of spirituality that's far more expansive than what I experienced within the church. And so for me, it's a blend of. It's like the tent, right? The proverbial tent. And I just took the walls off my tent. They just don't exist. In, out doesn't exist, doesn't matter.

Beau Oyler [02:35:31] And it's brought so much light and so much beauty and so much growth. And for now, it's painful and exciting and all of the above.

Nick Jones [02:35:47] It's kind of like what we talked about at lunch yesterday, John, just similarly, you know, having every viable option when. When you're a slave to, you know, the machine, you just. You have direction. You know what you're going to do the rest of your life? You're going to get baptized at 8, you're going to receive priesthood at 12, or enter into young women's organization. You're going to go on a mission. You're going to get married in temple. You're going to have babies.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] Don't forget byu.

Nick Jones [02:36:10] You're gonna go to byu. Unless you're me. And you don't go to college at all because you barely graduated high school.

John Dehlin [02:36:14] That's fine.

Nick Jones [02:36:16] But then the plan is retire and go serve

John Dehlin [02:36:24] a mission, multiple mission.

Nick Jones [02:36:26] And you pay for it while you do it.

John Dehlin [02:36:28] Yeah. And neglect your grandkids.

Nick Jones [02:36:30] And kids, it's like, where did you choose? And yeah, you feel a little angry and robbed because you're like, man, did I choose any of this? And, and then you step outside and you're a little scared because you're like, well, now I have every. It's not just milk or orange juice. It's. It's every drink imaginable. And I want to know what they all taste like, even if I don't like them.

Nick Jones [02:36:56] That's terrifying. But it's, it's, it's like wading through three feet of water and thinking you can't put your feet down and realize, oh, you're fine. Cuz a lot of people literally think they have to swim through three feet and that's all they can do when all they have to do is stand up.

Nick Jones [02:37:16] And I mentioned this yesterday, but that's my fear right now, being a new person exiting this thing. I was telling Amanda last night after we went to the brewery, I was like, man, you know, are we turning into those people? Because I'm scared to turn into that person. But the reality is, no, we were complete. We didn't get drunk, we didn't drink hard. Someone bought me a drink. I don't even know what it was.

John Dehlin [02:37:38] I didn't really.

Nick Jones [02:37:39] It was okay, but I didn't even drink at all. That was the whole night.

Jedd Kassing [02:37:43] That's how it starts. Okay, fine.

Nick Jones [02:37:46] But, you know, I just want to, I want to out that and say, you know, yeah, there are some examples, and those are the ones that people in the church hear about where they turn to drugs and adulterous things and a life of hedonistic thoughts and actions. But that's not the case for most of the people I've met with. It's a rare thing.

Jedd Kassing [02:38:12] So for my deconstruction, I had two very pivotal experiences as bishop that kind of ruined that, like, kind of killed the facade for me. And the first one I already mentioned was talking to the young man who had told me he, he just was afraid to pray for someone to fall in love with. And I just had this feeling of, man, the church is dead wrong about this. And I don't believe that there is a loving, ultimate power out there that would make somebody choose between a church and having a fulfilling, loving relationship with another human being. The second one was through the, the abuse issue in my ward.

Jedd Kassing [02:39:04] I had to really think hard about. I put this man in a position through what I thought was discernment, and put him in a position that put him in front of A child that he abused. And I just. From that point on, when people would come and ask me and say, is this calling really from God? I'd say, I don't know.

Jedd Kassing [02:39:31] Might be. We did our best. But I'm not going to claim that anymore, because the last time I claimed it, something really bad happened. Those two things made me just really lose faith in the structure of the church more so I lost trust in the God that I was taught to believe in.

Jedd Kassing [02:39:54] And in my last couple years of being bishop, I really struggled with believing in any type of deity and if there's a role for a savior, if we need any of that. And I kind of deconstructed a little backwards where I kind of lost my faith in the Judeo Christian God.

Jedd Kassing [02:40:16] Long before I lost my faith in the church, I still wouldn't allow myself to go down and look at the history and read the CES letter and things like that. I just was too terrified of having to stand up in front of a ward and say, I just can't do this anymore, or to sit in front of my friends and my family and say, I can't do this anymore. I was too cowardly to say that.

Jedd Kassing [02:40:42] So I get released and I get put in the nursery, which was great. That was the right place to be at that point. I can just go chill out with some kids and eat snacks and have fun. And I was in there with my wife, and we enjoyed that.

Jedd Kassing [02:40:58] And she wasn't where I was at. And to be fair, I hadn't told her where I was at. I didn't tell anyone. I was too scared. And then one day, she came up to me and showed me a video of some missionaries knocking on the door of an African American family.

Jedd Kassing [02:41:15] And that family said, pull up in your Book of Mormon. Let's read this scripture together, and you tell me what you think it means and why I should listen to what you have to say.

Nick Jones [02:41:25] Say.

Jedd Kassing [02:41:26] And my wife was incensed. She was furious. And she's like, I don't know how I missed this, but is this, like, blatant racism in our scripture? I'm like, yeah, kind of is. And then we started that journey together. Let's see, what else is there? And we were curious, like, what else are we missing? And, I mean, it feels like a lifetime, but in about 90 days, it was over. We, you know, garments off, we're never stepping foot in the church again. And.

Jedd Kassing [02:41:57] And it was over for us, mostly over emotional social issues that kind of broke our shelf. And then getting all the details and facts after of, of why we don't like it. And, and it's. It's a hell of a journey. It's very hard. It's very up and down. I went through a long period of just sadness and depression of what, what am I gonna do now?

Jedd Kassing [02:42:25] And, and, and sadness, like absolute sadness that everything that I loved and threw my life into was wrong. And it was a. I mean, it was all just a lie is the only way I can put it. And I felt very sad about it and just sit in bed at night and just cry. And we'd hold each other like, man, what's next? And then you kind of get through that and you see what's next and it's beautiful. And there's a big world out there and we still have struggles and we still have health issues in our family and we still have arguments and depression and anxiety.

Jedd Kassing [02:42:58] None of that goes away. It was there while we were believing and it's, it's there now. But, but we do feel happier and healthier out and we feel more accepting and loving and willing to see people who, for who they are and where they're at and learn from them.

Jedd Kassing [02:43:16] And all of that has just been such a great journey to go on. And I'm very, very happy that I was able to do it together with my spouse. I can't imagine, I just can't imagine trying to navigate those waters.

Jedd Kassing [02:43:32] And I feel for those who are going through it and just hope that there's a good path forward for them. But it's kind of my story in a nutshell. I mean, everyone's is somewhat similar. I found as you talk to people, there's some emotional spiritual issue that kind of cracks you. And then you start digging into the facts and the history and. And here we are talking to John de Lim.

Nick Jones [02:43:57] He's such an ass, right?

John Dehlin [02:44:02] I'm offended.

Nick Jones [02:44:04] Well, I've got to talk for you, Elder Bednar.

Rob Gorman [02:44:11] I like the analogy of a shelf. My shelf had two major boxes on it full of stuff. One was the organization, the body of the church that wasn't a Freudian slip, almost was not the people, the organization itself, the structure. And the other was the historical truth claims, the theology, if you will.

Rob Gorman [02:44:46] As I mentioned earlier, much of my real struggle, I had been kind of labeled or given the assignment as the guy who did the faith crisis classes when we did STAKE workshops. And parents whose children were straying would come to these workshops and I would talk about any number of the hot button issues and try to answer questions. You Know the issues about racism, the issues about polygamy, about the first vision, and we could go on with those things. And I found myself being able to carry out what the church message was very proficiently. But when my children, as I alluded to with Carly, would ask me deeper questions, I couldn't go deeper.

Rob Gorman [02:45:30] So I started to question things then. And as my term in the Stake Presidency was winding down, because you get called by inspiration released by Calendar, the nine years was up. We knew that the general authority was coming, and I couldn't hide what I was thinking about from my wife any longer.

Rob Gorman [02:45:53] And I voiced to her that I was concerned that I would be called to Stake President. And I didn't think I could do it. And I was worried that I hadn't talked to her about these things before because I didn't want to be the one to pull her away from the church again. I pulled her away when the Salamander letter came out, that's a whole new story of itself. But I didn't want to do it again. And I was afraid to bring up my worries with her. The one person that I.

Rob Gorman [02:46:27] That I should be able to do that with. Any rate, I mentioned this to her and she goes, I don't remember the exact conversation, but I remember the feeling of relief because she voiced some doubts that were similar to mine.

Rob Gorman [02:46:42] And it was a kind of, are you thinking what I'm thinking? Kind of evolution that happened there. And as soon as we discovered we were both aligned in many things with our question and we could go explore together, all kinds of things opened up. And I think it is true with many people who go through a deconstruction, once one card goes, the whole house falls. And I had to go through a process of, okay, all these things are up on that shelf. I need to go and how do I. I'm an engineer. How do I go Methodically. And I reached out to those friends who had been on John's Mormon stories several years ago and another friend who, when he Kelly that we mentioned when he had gone to Annapolis to the Naval Academy for his next assignment, that's where they had their deconstruction.

Rob Gorman [02:47:38] I wrote him and said, what caused it? And he sent me the CES letter and that gave me an outline, a chapter and verse, kind of go through the topics. And it just. Many facets started to be difficult for me to remain believing in anymore. I will tell you, though, the initial thing was the behavior of the leadership and how I could not make the connection as a young officer. I Could make the connection between me and the commanding officer. And I knew how he got where he was and what skill. Skills he had. And I could trust the orders that he issued. And I lost that confidence, particularly around the November 15 policy.

Rob Gorman [02:48:28] And then in 19, when it was reversed, I could not. In the Navy, when a ship's commanding officer is relieved. You'll read this in the paper. Often, the reason stated by the admirals that do it is a loss in their loss of confidence in their ability to command.

Rob Gorman [02:48:50] That's exactly. That's exactly what happened with me. And me looking not at the people I worked with directly. I knew those people, but I lost confidence in the leadership structure of the church. And then that caused me to question just about everything else.

Jedd Kassing [02:49:17] It's more of a loss of. It's a trust issue more than a faith issue. In that way, I couldn't trust the leaders anymore. I couldn't trust my own feelings and beliefs on what I'd been taught anymore. And the crisis, to me was more a crisis of trust. I was just. Like I said, just. There was nothing there to. To hold on to. It was all just slippery goop that I couldn't make sense of. And I'm a lot like you or. I had to. I had to get to the bottom of the barrel. Like, I didn't stop reading and listening and. I mean, four years of. Just every free second I had of deconstructing this thing because it just. You're. You're that far in. You have to get that far out. That's kind of my thought on it.

Beau Oyler [02:50:15] Well, thank you, guys. Really appreciate the honesty and the vulnerability. John, anything else to add or.

John Dehlin [02:50:23] Yeah, man, I know we all. I mean, part of me wants to wrap up. I've got a little bit more. Is that okay?

Beau Oyler [02:50:28] Yeah, it's fine.

Lightning Round: Rapid Fire Questions

John Dehlin [02:50:28] All right, so I'm gonna do a lightning. This is gonna be. This is gonna be legendary Mormon stories. Lightning moment.

Beau Oyler [02:50:35] Lightning round.

John Dehlin [02:50:35] We're going to do a lightning round. Okay. None of you can answer more than a sentence.

Beau Oyler [02:50:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:50:39] If you can do a word or a couple words. Great. No more than a sentence. Do I have your consent? Raise your left arm to the square bow.

Jedd Kassing [02:50:47] Thumb extended or not extended.

John Dehlin [02:50:49] Up to you. Do whatever you want to do.

Nick Jones [02:50:51] Repeat it how many times?

John Dehlin [02:50:52] All right, I'm going to do a lightning round. And this is hard because you have to think on the spot, but I just want a lightning round. Is that all right?

Beau Oyler [02:51:00] Yes. Yes, let's do it.

John Dehlin [02:51:01] Okay. So, Julia, this is going to be its own Facebook Short lightning round with former Mormon bishops and or stake presidency members. All right.

Jedd Kassing [02:51:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:51:10] And I'll just go. We'll just go. Literally. Jed, Rob. Bo. You know, Nick. Nick. Every time. Okay, so first question. Does the Mormon Church provide adequate training to its bishops?

Jedd Kassing [02:51:24] Easy. No. No, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:51:30] Where's the hell? No.

Jedd Kassing [02:51:31] Hell no.

Beau Oyler [02:51:33] Not at all. It's not even a. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:36] Does the Mormon Church provide training on how to deal with sexual abuse victims or survivors?

Jedd Kassing [02:51:44] Not for me. No.

Rob Gorman [02:51:46] No.

Beau Oyler [02:51:47] I received no training.

Nick Jones [02:51:48] Zero.

John Dehlin [02:51:49] Okay. Do you remember? No. And are you able to share the average dollar amount of monthly tithing receipts or contributions to the ward you were in?

Jedd Kassing [02:52:04] My best memory is around 10 to 12,000 a week in my ward.

John Dehlin [02:52:11] So 40amonth. Yeah, 40 to 50amonth. Okay.

Rob Gorman [02:52:14] That. That feels right to me. My counselors did tithing. I didn't.

Beau Oyler [02:52:19] No idea. I delegated it to my counselors.

Nick Jones [02:52:23] I see it because you have to check it monthly. 18,000amonth.

John Dehlin [02:52:27] In Mississippi.

Nick Jones [02:52:27] In Mississippi, a month.

John Dehlin [02:52:28] Okay, good. This is good. You guys are doing great. Okay. This is a big one. Is the gift of discernment real? And for those who don't know what I mean by that. Do Mormon bishops have special powers to see and know things that normal mortals do not?

Jedd Kassing [02:52:46] Never once did I feel like I had discernment.

Rob Gorman [02:52:52] I did feel, but I don't believe it was that. I believe it was a human connection.

Jedd Kassing [02:52:57] Same.

Beau Oyler [02:52:58] I think love is the power of discernment.

John Dehlin [02:53:00] Love. Love is the power of discernment. Not super special priesthood power. Okay.

Nick Jones [02:53:06] For me, it was other people's body language that told me that they had a problem.

John Dehlin [02:53:10] And that was just called discernment.

Rob Gorman [02:53:12] Yes.

Jedd Kassing [02:53:13] Can I add one thing to that? Sorry. Breaking your rules, Fetcher. Discernment often was other members of the ward coming to the bishop and saying, so and so is going through this. So and so did this. Yeah, that was a lot of my discernment.

Rob Gorman [02:53:29] Yeah.

Beau Oyler [02:53:29] It's very true. Very true.

John Dehlin [02:53:32] Love it.

Rob Gorman [02:53:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:33] Okay. You're going to be tempted to want to pander here, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Would the Mormon Church be significantly better off if women were allowed to be bishops? And like, just a sentence on if. Yes. Why?

Jedd Kassing [02:53:48] Yes. Because we need their voice. We need a different perspective.

Rob Gorman [02:53:55] The. The main job of that bishop is to help people resolve problems and draw closer to Christ. Women are much better at that than. Than men. Having that added would be terrific.

Beau Oyler [02:54:11] 100%, yes.

John Dehlin [02:54:14] Full stop.

Jedd Kassing [02:54:15] For both.

Beau Oyler [02:54:15] Full stop. I mean, I think everyone who has a woman in their life knows that we need to have female bishops.

Nick Jones [02:54:26] I've got two answers. I agree with everything they said, but my answer would be no, because I don't believe anyone should ever be called

Jedd Kassing [02:54:31] to be a bishop.

Nick Jones [02:54:34] No one.

John Dehlin [02:54:35] Yeah. Okay, next question. Is the Mormon church's approach to LGBTQ members killing the church?

Jedd Kassing [02:54:46] Yes. Without doubt,

Rob Gorman [02:54:50] yes. But not by itself.

John Dehlin [02:54:52] There's other things, too.

Beau Oyler [02:54:53] Yes, it's, it's completely wrong.

John Dehlin [02:54:57] But is it hurting the church significantly?

Beau Oyler [02:55:00] Significantly?

Nick Jones [02:55:01] Okay, I say yes, but I don't believe it's hurting the church.

John Dehlin [02:55:04] I believe it's hurting the people and the church.

Nick Jones [02:55:08] I just, it hurts the people. The church to me is irrelevant.

John Dehlin [02:55:12] You already want to answer that question.

Nick Jones [02:55:13] Yeah, the people matter to me.

John Dehlin [02:55:16] Yeah. Okay. Okay. This is a, this is a hard question because I'm not asking you what's morally right. I'm going to ask you what would help the church. And when I, I'm going to define help the church by butts and seats, willingness to serve in callings, and willingness to pay tithing. So put your brain on your general authority at the church headquarters, and your goal is maximizing tithe payers, butts in seats, and people willing to serve in their callings. Would removing worthiness interviews harm the church from that perspective?

Jedd Kassing [02:56:03] I, I, I think that is a positive step the church needs to take is getting rid of member worthiness interviews.

John Dehlin [02:56:11] Wait, did you remember what I said?

Jedd Kassing [02:56:13] I do think it would probably help with attendance.

John Dehlin [02:56:16] So you're saying tithing.

Jedd Kassing [02:56:18] Tithing attendance.

John Dehlin [02:56:19] Okay, let me just say it again.

Jedd Kassing [02:56:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:21] Would tithing go up, faithfulness go up, activity rates go up? If the church eliminated worthiness interviews,

Jedd Kassing [02:56:35] tithing, I believe would not go up. The rest, I think would.

Rob Gorman [02:56:39] Okay, Rob, I'm going to be a hard case for you. The goal of those things that you stated has nothing to do with people's lives. Lives in quality, and trying to relate them is only a control mechanism. So if I'm sitting there thinking of those three things and those are my goals, it wouldn't hurt. It's not helping. So from a business perspective, why not change that from a. This is how people become better people. They're, they're not related goals, they're people's behavior. And those goals are not related towards exalting people and making them better people.

Beau Oyler [02:57:22] Short term, it'll hurt the church. Long term, it'll help the church with the requirement of butts in the seats, callings and tithing. Because I think that there will be a cycle and a younger generation that if those changes are made that they may see a resurgence, but they won't come back if these old ways are still in place.

Nick Jones [02:57:45] I agree. I would agree with Beau. 100.

Jedd Kassing [02:57:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:51] All right. Y' all are doing good. Okay, a couple more. Does the Mormon Church, in your experience, discourage the reporting of sexual abuse and sexual abusers to law enforcement or police?

Jedd Kassing [02:58:07] Yes. Experienced it firsthand. Even after we called the police, I was chastised for not calling Curtin and McConkey first and letting them deal with it.

Rob Gorman [02:58:20] I think they based their advice to bishops on the liability position of the church. I think that is easily seen as discouraging people from reporting.

Beau Oyler [02:58:31] Yeah, I was taught to protect the good name of the church, and it was out of my personal experience of having been molested as a kid when I was 7, that prompted my first response as a bishop to call CPS rather than the hotline. Otherwise, I would have probably gone through whatever. You know, the normal chain of command is through the hotline and the Stake Presidency and so on.

Nick Jones [02:59:04] Those who saw the podcast yesterday knows my answer is yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:07] Yes what?

Nick Jones [02:59:08] Yes, they. They hide it. They. They discourage us from doing it.

What the Church Should Do Differently

John Dehlin [02:59:17] Think of the Mormon church experience like a product, like McDonald's or Coca Cola. What's the one thing you would recommend to the church to improve their product, the church experience to the membership?

Jedd Kassing [02:59:37] Good question. To improve the experience, take away the fear and the guilt and the shame.

John Dehlin [02:59:43] Okay, okay.

Rob Gorman [02:59:46] My. My brain with the product question went to business questions. And I would say invest in infrastructure, meaning buildings, cleaning, staff, counselors, professional aides for people and ecclesiastic. Go and spend the money on those things.

Beau Oyler [03:00:09] I think as an experience, just turning the focus from the institution to the individuals right now, it really is about the institution.

Jedd Kassing [03:00:21] Yeah,

Nick Jones [03:00:24] it's hard to be last in these things and be original, honestly, because everything they've said from building cleaning to look in the south, you're competing with the big, huge new Baptist church that has an immaculate font, our font. You have to literally walk through the toilet to get to. It's gross, it's filthy. Members clean it, and they don't do it weekly. They could easily hire staff and they could spruce it up and make this place a lot more appealing to outsiders coming in. If you compare our church building to others, at least in the south, we're getting beat hands down.

John Dehlin [03:01:01] This is all great. I'm surprised none of you talked about, like, making the sacrament meeting experience more entertaining, more fun, more charismatic, more compelling. But all the answers are good. All right, next question. This is slightly different. What's one thing the Mormon Church could do to stop the hemorrhaging, which is slightly different than improve the product. I'll start with Nick first.

Nick Jones [03:01:28] Thank you.

Jedd Kassing [03:01:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:29] Reverse dialogue.

Jedd Kassing [03:01:30] Okay.

Nick Jones [03:01:32] I shared this in a TikTok I posted the other day, and it's just so profound. Alexander Scholzen in the Gulag Archipelago said all the problems in the world would completely disappear if we would just simply tell the truth. I would tell the brethren to stop lying. Tell the truth if you want to end the hemorrhaging. Allow yourself to be found vulnerable in the eyes of the people that you supposedly serve and watch them follow you because there's power and vulnerability.

Beau Oyler [03:02:07] And then to say three simple words. We are sorry.

John Dehlin [03:02:16] Apologize. Good.

Beau Oyler [03:02:17] Apologize. Repent. Do what they taught us to do.

Nick Jones [03:02:21] Amen.

John Dehlin [03:02:23] All right, Rob.

Rob Gorman [03:02:25] I don't think they can. Yeah, I agree with what they have said. Those would be good overtures. But I think that people are discovering a number of things that are flaws, and I think the hemorrhaging will continue.

John Dehlin [03:02:42] But that's not your job. What's one thing you do to stop the hemorrhaging? And I love that answer. I'm glad you said it. Stop the hemorrhaging. One recommendation.

Rob Gorman [03:02:52] I think they need to recognize and acknowledge they don't have all the answers.

John Dehlin [03:03:00] All right, Jed, you get lost this time.

Jedd Kassing [03:03:03] Give some of it back. Build hospitals, women's shelters, LGBT safe homes. Give it. Give it back and actually do what you say Jesus would want you to do and go do it.

PIMO Bishops and Protecting Vulnerable Members

John Dehlin [03:03:22] Okay. Two more. This problem of PIMO bishops wanting to die by suicide, you know what I'm saying? Just stuck as a bishop or stake president, no longer believing, but feeling like they can't resign or step away without being viewed as adulterers or porn lookers or worse, or just failing everyone, their community, their spouse, their family. Would the answer to that be eliminating expected terms, bishop five years, stake president 10 years. Would that. Would that help solve the problem? I'm gonna go with Bo first.

Beau Oyler [03:04:05] I don't think that would. I don't think that would solve the problem.

John Dehlin [03:04:08] Okay.

Beau Oyler [03:04:09] No.

John Dehlin [03:04:10] Okay. Do you have a solution for that?

Jedd Kassing [03:04:15] I don't.

Beau Oyler [03:04:16] I don't have a solution. Because the. The challenge is that the bishops who are pimo physically and mentally out are the bishops who have looked behind the veil, right? And they have seen. They saw how the sausage is made. They've seen the wizard of Oz, and they see that it isn't what they thought it was. And then they have to look at

Nick Jones [03:04:40] themselves in the mirror.

Beau Oyler [03:04:41] And say, what good am I doing? And then that's just a personal choice of where they want to spend their energy and do good. And so whether it's a three year term or a five year term or whatever, you're just called to it. I don't know that that's gonna matter.

Nick Jones [03:05:05] My opinion. Do yourself a favor. More importantly, do your family a favor and do the right thing. You want to be a savior on Mount Zion because we've been programmed to do that and to be that. But if you're not healthy in the position you're in, you're not going to do near the good that you think

John Dehlin [03:05:24] that you can or if you're not alive or that. Yeah,

Jedd Kassing [03:05:31] I don't one, I'm, I'm very thankful for the example of all these men and everyone else before me who stood up and left. And maybe, maybe that softens some of the stigma around quitting a calling to see that it's, you know, we need to take care of ourselves first. And the upper leadership needs to make that more acceptable and not as shameful.

Rob Gorman [03:06:06] I don't think shifting the terms, the term of service is the key issue. Shifting the expectations of what they are to do while they're in those callings and the support they are provided will make a difference. Term is just less suck or more suck. You got to change how hard it is to do what is being asked. Change what is being asked.

John Dehlin [03:06:32] Okay, last question. I don't mean this to be too glib or like a sucker punch. As far as what you've seen in terms of the priority of area authorities and general authorities, I'm going to give you just a binary chores. It's a false binary, but I'm going to give it to you anyway. Health and well being of the members, tithing commitment and good name of the church on the other. So these are two choices as to what they care about most. Health and well being of the members, tithing commitment of members, good name of the church. Where do you see the brethren coming down in terms of their priority?

Beau Oyler [03:07:18] I'm happy to go first. Institution over the individual every time. The practice over the person every time.

Rob Gorman [03:07:32] I agree. I will say they want both and don't recognize in the current construct they cannot have both. So they defer to the institution and that trumps that has priority

Jedd Kassing [03:07:46] to me. I think they've proven where their intent is. They will trick and lie and hide things from the members to keep the money flowing. And that's just in my, in my view that's Just what has happened for the history of the church.

Nick Jones [03:08:10] This may not be a lightning answer, John, but we live in a place where we have hurricanes and tornadoes every year. I have at least a dozen Helping hand shirts that are faded yellow from how many weekends. It's nearly 100 weekends in my life of going after working Monday through Friday and then spending our money on buying chainsaws, equipment. People have skid steers that they offer. And while we're out here doing this service, the church is making sure that we are accounting for every single man hour because they're being credited money and funds while we're coming out of pocket and giving not only our time and our talents and everything in between to them, but people get injured on these things and it's their insurance that covers them or out of their pocket that covers them. They 100% care about the institution and they do not care about the people.

Beau Oyler [03:09:06] And I, I would challenge that because I think that they do care about the people. I think that there. So there was a talk that President Nelson gave a number of years ago, and I think that the term that he used is called divine love.

Beau Oyler [03:09:26] And there's a sharp contrast between unconditional love and divine love. And the contrast is that divine love is a love that requires. And when you look at it clearly, it's the opposite of unconditional love. And so the work that the brethren do, I believe that they're doing it truly out of love, and that's why they're building temples.

Beau Oyler [03:09:56] Because the greatest thing that they could do is to manifest Christ's love by bringing these covenants to as many people as possible. That the greatest thing that they could do is to love God's children by spreading his word and his church to as many people as possible. And it is a conditional love that he coined divine love. And so in their hearts, they feel that they are doing it out of love.

Rob Gorman [03:10:32] Their behavior, though, I'm going to push back on the pushback. Their behavior when it comes to a line of better for the church or better for the people, they choose the institution over and over again. So I don't, I can't dispute what you have portrayed as their motivation for doing those things, but there is easily found counter arguments to why they're building temples.

Beau Oyler [03:11:00] Yeah, absolutely.

Rob Gorman [03:11:02] So I think when you look at the individual and when you have a choice between buying a chainsaw or getting a church to buy it, even though you're wearing the yellow shirt, the money question comes up over and over again. And the deference goes to keeping the church solid financially.

Beau Oyler [03:11:21] Agreed.

Nick Jones [03:11:23] If God created this earth and going outside in Utah, you see the majesty of it when you see these mountains because where we're from, it's trees. You don't get to see that. This is the first time I've been to Utah where I didn't just marvel at the temples. I actually looked at the mountains and I marveled at what God gave us, not what man built. And when I look at a building that cost tens of millions of dollars to build, while children in this country, in this state are starving to death, I cannot look at temples and think that they are good places any longer.

Rob Gorman [03:12:03] I feel very much the same way. I feel very much the same way. I cannot resolve that contrast of greatest blessing on earth. You'll be hungry but it'll be better later. Cannot resolve that.

Nick Jones [03:12:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:23] Wow. What a mic drop. What a great two and a half. Oh three hours. Three hours and fifteen minutes. It's been amazing. So many people have said this is one of their favorite episodes of the year or of all time. We've received so many super chats that I'm just super grateful for. Carol Barnard I'm just going to read a couple comments really quick or questions. Tommy Cochran writes, I served in a branch presidency on my mission and so many things happened that no 19 year old boy could have been prepared for. Look up to you gents. I should have mentioned I served twice as a branch president on my mission. So I mean I haven't been a bishop but I've been a branch president.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Rob Gorman [03:13:07] You're even less prepared.

John Dehlin [03:13:09] Right? Why would you do that to people in Guatemala? Are you kidding me? Yeah.

Beau Oyler [03:13:13] 19.

John Dehlin [03:13:16] Yeah. Rio for life. Kim D writes, thanks for sharing your bishop experiences. My wish for you is to continue experiencing and showing these difficult emotions. Love From Hibbing, Minnesota, Suzanne Enright writes, my personal experience in the church was that Mormonism oversimplified the very complex reality of being a human.

John Dehlin [03:13:40] Thank you for shining a light on this and what is possible from being vulnerable and connecting as humans, trying our very best. Thank you Suzanne so much for the super chat. Jonalyn Elzinga writes, been a difficult mental health week for me. Listening to these beautiful men has been an amazing bomb.

John Dehlin [03:14:00] So glad it meant a lot to you. Jonah Lynn thanks for sharing. Nana Rose writes, my son who's 48 years old was on a group chat with myself and his two sisters and he said, quote, the thing I feel so angry about with the church is how self abusive it made me. And I think all of us. Wow. That's a really good comment. Thank you Nana Rose. Julia Julie Mecham writes thank you for bringing this to us John.

John Dehlin [03:14:26] Thanks JD France Couple more Profane or not says these guys are gold. Next time invite release side presidents or any women's leadership position would love to watch. I do commit that we will be having at least one of those series, if not an ongoing series. So that's going to happen. Thanks for the suggestion. Email me@mormonstoriesmail.com if you live in the area and think you would have something to contribute. Nana Rose writes, I remain on the church records only because my ex husband fears losing being sealed to our children. I know it's not true and feel it gives him some peace. But I'm questioning remaining on the records now after hearing you guys.

John Dehlin [03:15:12] I guess she's saying anyway, she's saying keep it up. Shannon M. Writes, Keep up the amazing work Mormon Stories. Thank you Shannon. The Barb Knows Best writes, the rich LDS church should have written guidelines for each state to handle child abuse and protect children. State laws vary. Violating clergy penitent privilege can incur serious liability. Okay, thanks for that perspective. Darren Lee writes, have any of you experienced, observed a sense of superiority that appears or develops as bishops counsel and fix serious issues with members, quote, helping them come back to God or be worthy again? It's very slippery. You're nodding, Rob. What do you have to say about that?

Rob Gorman [03:15:59] It's a very, as you said, a very slippery, slippery slope. You can feel good about helping people and then you can develop this puffed ego. Definitely a problem, a trap.

Jedd Kassing [03:16:15] It's almost impossible not to when every prayer said that you're around is please bless our good bishop. To have the, you know, it's hard not to feel that little ego boost and that superiority when it's just heaped on you over and over and over again for nothing that you did personally.

Nick Jones [03:16:35] You know where that stems from? General conferences where they say we testify that the prophet is this thing. It happened in like the early 2000s. It's just become this pandemic of let's worship our leaders.

Jedd Kassing [03:16:48] Yes. And then they come into a room.

Nick Jones [03:16:50] Yes.

Jedd Kassing [03:16:51] Standing till they leave like this. This hero worship. It's real. It's there.

John Dehlin [03:16:58] Well, the Doctrine and Covenant says whether by my voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same. And bishops are the prophet for the ward. Right. Yeah.

Rob Gorman [03:17:08] I think where you see the damage is when the person doesn't follow the bishop's advice and it goes further south for them. The person is to blame, not the bishop who gave them correct or incorrect. And you see that institutionally, it's the. The fundamental attribution error.

Nick Jones [03:17:28] You.

Rob Gorman [03:17:28] You know that when I look at a person and see their success, I. I give it to their luck. When I see them do something that hurts them, I blame it on their character. When I look at myself, my success is my character, and my failure is my bad luck or the environment around me. The institution does the same thing.

John Dehlin [03:17:51] Beautiful. Okay, a couple more. So this is interesting. B. Gadiot and Kamarath says these men are why I don't remove my membership. Sustained. Local leaders opposed. General leaders don't believe religious truth claims. The evolving apologetics are the wet sand in a faith foundation, not Mormon stories podcast or others outside. Anyone understand what that person just said?

Nick Jones [03:18:20] I don't think they understand what they asked.

John Dehlin [03:18:25] All right, well, thanks for sharing the same soap And Clay writes, this is the meaning of once a bishop, all was a bishop, because the things they carried, they'll carry for life. Thank you for this discussion. Yeah, I'm reminded of, like, the Lord of the Rings and the ring bearers were never the same.

Beau Oyler [03:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:47] After they bore the ring, you guys resonate with that.

Jedd Kassing [03:18:50] Yeah. There's an interesting. I don't know how widespread it is, but most bishops, when they get released, quit or otherwise, move out of their ward pretty quick. We didn't have that opportunity because we wanted to keep our kids secure and stable in school and everything until they grew up. But it's a burden because people. People know what they told you they remember, and, you know, they're some of their deep, dark secrets. They don't want out. And now you're kind of this potential boogeyman that can come back and get them.

John Dehlin [03:19:23] That's.

Jedd Kassing [03:19:24] That's the impression I felt from people in my ward and kind of the cold shoulder that I get from them. That's part of it, I think.

John Dehlin [03:19:32] Beautiful. All right, really quickly, there's still 2,600 people on this live stream and chat. If everybody likes this episode right now, YouTube's gonna blast it out in the algorithms more than it would have. So please, everyone take a minute to like this episode. Please subscribe to this channel either on Facebook or YouTube if you haven't already. The more subscribers we have, the better we do in the algorithm. Thank you for the super chats. Mostly thank you for the monthly donors. Your monthly donations are what keeps this episode alive. If you want to become a monthly donor, go to mormonstories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [03:20:08] That's what makes all this possible. Always a super thanks to Julia, Maven, Gerardo, and Brooklyn, because they're my production staff that does all the work behind the scenes. And in my board of directors, that keeps us on the straight and narrow. Thanks to all of them. And Jedi, Rob, Beau, and Nick, you're all amazing panelists. This has been a legendary Mormon Stories episode. It's a historic Mormon Stories episode. So thanks to you all for being willing to come on and do this. And a special thanks to Bo, because this was your freaking idea.

Beau Oyler [03:20:48] Glad that we did.

Nick Jones [03:20:49] Great idea.

Beau Oyler [03:20:49] Thanks, everybody for joining me. Really appreciate it. And John, thanks for the trust and facilitating this. Yeah, I'd love to do it again.

John Dehlin [03:20:57] Okay. All right, so we're gonna do it again. Bo, you won't be presiding over the woman's discussion. Is that.

Jedd Kassing [03:21:02] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:21:05] So we're gonna have a women's panel. We're gonna maybe do some more bishop's panels and other panels, but this is fun. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today. Amazing comments in the chat. Love my job most of the time. And yeah, thanks to everyone. We've got another this afternoon, we're going to be doing Michael Quinn's autobiography with Barbara Jones Brown and Michael Quinn's son, Moshe. That's going to be amazing. And we've got really great stuff coming up in the weeks and months ahead. So thanks for joining us. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.