Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. What I think is a breaking news episode. We're kind of breaking new ground here on Mormon Stories podcast. Today we are going to be interviewing a currently serving Mormon bishop who frankly no longer believes in the Mormon Church's literal truth claims. So you know things like, you know, whether or not this is the one true church, whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet in the way we were all taught, doesn't believe in a historical literal book of Mormon golden plates and isn't paying tithing. And I think his stake president knows, but we'll get into it.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] So how I, I guess we'll be answering a lot of questions today. How did he become a Mormon bishop? What was his church experience like prior to being a Mormon bishop? How did he lose his faith as a literalistic faith as a Mormon bishop?

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Why he decided to come out on Mormon Stories podcast as a non believer slash non literal believer, why he chose Mormon Stories to do that. And then maybe we can all speculate on what the ramifications might be for him once he goes home because he's going to be leading ward conference for his ward this Sunday. Is that right, Maroney?

Moroni Ortiz [00:01:23] That's correct, yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] So, so his name is Moroni Ortiz and he is from he is currently living in Monterrey, Mexico.

Moroni Ortiz [00:01:34] That's correct, yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] And he's been on Mormon Stories once before, incognito. If you, if you go to episode 1733, it's entitled Mormon Bishop Speaks out about misleading, I think statistics. But this is the first time he or anyone has ever come on Mormon Stories again as an actively serving bishop using his face, using his real name, willing to admit that he no longer believes in the literalistic core Mormon Church truth claims. Just as an also, just as a nod to history, of course, Bill Real was the first actively serving Mormon bishop to come on Mormon Stories podcast, but he was still a believer at the time. And I will also say that I've interviewed one other Mormon bishop currently serving Mormon bishop and his wife from but they've asked me to hold that interview until they're ready for it to be released.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] So this is actually technically the second time I've interviewed an actively serving Mormon bishop who no longer believes. But this is the first time it's being released. And I'll just say one more thing and that's just that I'm contacted all the time by currently serving Mormon bishops, currently serving Stake presidents, missionaries, bishopric members, Stake presidency members, stake high councilmen, and of course Relief Society presidents and elsewhere. They're listening to Mormon Stories worldwide and contacting me all the time.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] It's just they're afraid to be public about what they think and feel. And that's what's so, for me, remarkable about Moroni's story and his courage is that he's willing to. To talk publicly and show his face and say his name and his ward and his stake. And he's traveled all the way from Mexico to be with us today. And I'll also add one final thing. He knows more about Mormonism than many of you who are currently listening on Mormon Stories. So this is a super sharp individual. So, Moroni, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Moroni Ortiz [00:03:42] Thank you. Thank you so much. And I'm really, really excited about being here. It's literally something that I was really looking for and something that you mentioned that is really important for me is that there's many people who have different thoughts or different understanding in the church, even in leadership, even in Mexico. I know. But many of them are not courageous to talk publicly about it. And I think that we should start changing that mindset. I mean, there's nothing wrong on learning new things and understanding the church differently and pretty much getting people to know that there's a place for everyone, I guess. I hope so. I'm not quite sure. I'm not sure what's gonna happen after this interview when I go back to Mexico, but I would like to believe that there's room for everyone and from everyone, thoughts and beliefs in our culture.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] Yeah, yeah. And before we jump into it, I like to give my interviewees a chance to state their intentions. Someone might say, oh, wa. You're an active Mormon bishop who no longer believes. You must be trying to destroy people's faith. You must be trying to tear down the church. You must be trying to destroy the church. You must hate the church. Why don't you just start by saying what your intentions are, both of speaking out publicly, but also coming out Mormon stories to speak out publicly. Why are you doing this?

Moroni Ortiz [00:05:03] Absolutely. Well, I feel like the reason why you have been having this podcast for more than 20 years is because there's a need. There's a need for this kind of forum, this kind of information to be shared. There's many people, I mean, from my perspective, in the past, Churchiller, have church leaders have decided to sort of, like, hide or embellish church history. And in that, in those efforts, they have not been completely honest. And I feel like there's a need for this kind of spaces where we can express what we have what's our understanding? What do we believe? All the information that we find which is true and honest and have open conversations about it.

Moroni Ortiz [00:05:47] So from my perspective, it's not something bad what I'm doing right now. It's just that I know that there are so many people all over the world who has similar experiences as mine. And sometimes when you are going through this process, you feel weird or you feel like nobody really gets what you're going through. And that's what I want to change. I want people to know that they're not alone. That whether they decide to continue, like, attending church or not, where they decide to continue being church members or they resign from the church, there's always someone who loves them, and there's someone who understands and listens to them.

Moroni Ortiz [00:06:25] So that would be my intention. I'm not trying to destroy people faith. I'm not trying to destroy the church. I love the church. I think that through this interview, you're gonna see that overall, my experience in the church has been good. And I have received or I have gotten so many good things from my church membership, which I still value a lot.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] And is it correct to say just at the outset that your desired intention is to remain a member in good standing with the church?

Moroni Ortiz [00:06:54] Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. That's something that. I mean, there's not a thought in my mind right now to resign from the church or anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Yeah. Okay. And. And I don't want to give away the ending, but, like, your state president knows where you stand. Is that correct?

Moroni Ortiz [00:07:12] That's correct. We have been having some conversations since probably more than a year ago. And yes, I will give more detail later in the.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Okay. We are also super grateful to be joined today by Gerardo Sumano, my partner, one of my partners in truth and righteousness. Gerardo is also from Mexico, of course. Gerardo, anything you want to say? We. This episode probably wouldn't have happened without you. Anything you want to say? Well, your dad's a. Currently serving bishop in. In Mexico as well, right? Yeah.

Guest [00:07:40] Yesterday we were at dinner and we were talking. I. I realized, right, like, man, the church must be running out of people. We have currently serving bishop right next, sitting right next to us having dinner. My dad's a bishop. My husband's dad's a bishop. And yeah, really interesting. But I'm happy to be here, and I think this will be a very interesting episode.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] So we are. Yeah. Thank you. And thanks for being here, Gerardo. So we're live streaming this, so we're super eager to have Those of you joining us on YouTube and on Facebook, we want to hear your comments, we want to share your questions. Please have a healthy, fun conversation in the live stream and we'll do our best to incorporate that. And then also just for everyone either joining us live or later, please subscribe to us on YouTube. Please subscribe to us on Facebook. We always welcome and appreciate your super chat donations. But most importantly, if you value this type of content, the most important way you can support us is to go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] And as long as you're willing to do that, we're able to pay staff and pay our rent and our facilities or fees or whatever our fees are and keep this sort of content alive. So we appreciate everyone who supports us and makes this possible. So the format is going to be one longest form interview plan on this being about three to four hours.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] We'll let Maroney take potty breaks when he needs to. Gerardo too. And we're just going to talk about how we, you know, what his Mormon experience was, how he became a bishop, how he lost his orthodox Mormon faith as a bishop, and then where he is now and, you know, what his thoughts or feelings are about the Mormon Church's truth claims and where the church is today. And then we'll speculate on what the consequences might be for him coming on and, and what future he hopes for for the Mormon Church. And so that's going to be the format. So Moroni, maybe let's begin by saying, where does your Mormon story begin?

Moroni Ortiz's Mormon Upbringing in Mexico

Moroni Ortiz [00:09:48] Okay, perfect. So as you might guess, I was born a church member. My name is Moroni, or Moroni in Spanish from the Book of Mormon. So my parents were both church members when they met. They were both baptized in their 20s while they were single. They met at church activities.

Moroni Ortiz [00:10:08] They were both. Well, my mom was already graduated from college when she baptized. When she was converted to the church, my dad actually started like his first interactions with church members were at college. He had some classmates at school who were church members and they invited him to church pretty much for sports activities. And then he started being more interested in the church and he ended up baptizing, which was one big decision for him. And then a few years later, they both met at institute activities in Mexico and they decided to get married. And probably 10 months after they were married, I was born.

Moroni Ortiz [00:10:48] That was fast. Yeah, my mom is a bit older than my dad, so she was more than 30 years old when she got married. My dad was still in his 20s. And that was one of the decisions that they made, like, when do you want to have kids? And she said, well, I'm not, like, in my 20s, so I think that I want to have kids soon enough. And that's what happened.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] I thought it was fun to learn that your mom was a DJ before she was a Mormon radio station disc jockey who had a Beatles program, right?

Moroni Ortiz [00:11:20] Absolutely. Before she was a church member, she had a Beatles program for a while in her hometown, Jalapa, Veracruz. So she was really into many, many things because she was also part of a professional university choir, and they used to tour all around Mexico. They even went to Guatemala at some point while she was in that choir. They were professionals. They were like classical music choir. And she was also a radio host. And then she worked on her profession for many years and before even getting married. So her story is also really interesting.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] Did you already mention that she's an attorney or was an attorney?

Moroni Ortiz [00:12:02] Oh, yeah, she's a lawyer. So she practiced that for a while, and then she ended up working for one of the government organizations, which is the Social Security organization in Mexico, the ims. That's how it's called. She worked there for a few years, and after that, when I was like, three years old, she resigned from her job, and she spend all the time with us taking care of her children. So, yeah, that's really interesting. Her story is really interesting, too.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] So total children of your parents, how many?

Moroni Ortiz [00:12:36] We are three. But all of my childhood, we were two because it's me. I'm the oldest one. And then there's my brother, who's two years younger than me. And then 13 years later, my youngest sister was born.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] 13 years after your younger brother.

Moroni Ortiz [00:12:52] 13 years after me.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] Oh, okay.

Moroni Ortiz [00:12:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] We call that a caboose here. Have you heard that term before?

Moroni Ortiz [00:12:58] No, never. But we have a term in Spanish for that.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] What is that?

Moroni Ortiz [00:13:02] Pilon.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] Okay, what does that mean?

Moroni Ortiz [00:13:05] Pilon is like, for example, when you go to a party and you get some extra something that they call that the pilon. So that's why they call that pilot.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] All right. Okay, cool. So, like, what was your Mormon upbringing like in Mexico in terms of all the traditional things we ask about? Church attendance, prayer, scripture study, family, home evening, you know, that sort of thing.

Moroni Ortiz [00:13:29] Yeah, I would say that my parents were really orthodox believers, so before I was even born, my dad was ordained high priest and was called as a bishop's counselor. And when I was a baby, I don't remember this, but my mom was a relief Society Stake President.

Moroni Ortiz [00:13:45] So they were really, really into the church. That was our culture. We would pray every night, at least when we woke up and when we went to sleep, we would pray every time we had food or lunch, like, at least three times a day. We would pray for food. We would read scriptures. Often we would strive to have family home evening every week. It was hard sometimes at some point. My dad used to travel a lot because of his work, and it was sometimes hard to have family holiday evening every week. But that was something that they were really trying to do often. So I could say that I was as Mormon as I could be in Mexico.

Moroni Ortiz [00:14:27] And that was really something that was into me. I mean, I was always conscious and I was always, like, thinking that I was a church member and I was different from the rest of the people because as you can imagine, growing up in Mexico as a church member is something that is not that common. So usually at school, you are the only member at school. You sometimes have one or two other members attending your school. But usually I was the only church member attending school. So I always had to keep in mind, like, my mom always used to tell us, like, remember that you are not the same as the rest of the kids.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] And what were the ways, either visually or behaviorally, that you were different from your friends, you know, growing up in the church? What were the things you couldn't do that they could do or that you did that they didn't do, or ways that you looked differently than others? How. How would you have stood out behaviorally or visually from your friends?

Moroni Ortiz [00:15:23] I think that as I started, like, growing up, and I'm not saying that I was too old, probably in elementary school, I think it was language the big difference, because I would not use any swear words, and most of my schoolmates would every other time, like, swear or use inappropriate language sort of speaking. So I think that would be one of the biggest differences. Another big difference would be my name. My name was always catching people's attention.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Everybody's like, where's that name come from?

Moroni Ortiz [00:15:49] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I would have to. Well, when I was probably like 8 or 9 years old, I decided on what was going to be the answer. So that's what I repeated people all the time like, oh, it comes from the Book of Mormon. And then usually the next question would be, are you a Mormon? And, yes, I am a Mormon. And that would be my. My answer, my short answer. But, yeah, that got my attention.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] And that means everyone's always asking you where your name comes from. And you're just having to tell everyone all the time that you're Mormon.

Moroni Ortiz [00:16:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Throughout your whole life, like you not have a super Mormon identity with that name.

Moroni Ortiz [00:16:25] Exactly. And that's crazy because you sometimes find church members where somebody else wouldn't find them. Because for example, at work right now, there's a guard, a security guard who is a member and he found out I was a member because he was registering my entrance to the parking lot. And then he said, like, you're a church member? Yes, I am. Oh, I am a member too. And then that's how we match.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] You can't hide.

Moroni Ortiz [00:16:46] No, I can't hide.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] You can't hide as a Mormon from any Mormon.

Guest [00:16:51] It's a common practice for Mexicans to name their kids after Book of Mormon names.

Moroni Ortiz [00:16:55] Like. Yeah, like Nephi, Mosiah.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] I remember as a missionary when people would be named Jesus, I'd be like, what? Yeah, you know what I mean? But in Latin America you can be named Jesus.

Moroni Ortiz [00:17:06] That's pretty common. I think in any Spanish speaking country. It is pretty common. That name Jesus is a pretty common name.

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Yeah. But Moroni, not so much.

Moroni Ortiz [00:17:15] Not so much. And for example, at work right now, there's another Moroni and he's also a church member. I know him. And sometimes people get confused because I work for a consultancy firm and our client, that Moroni is actually a employee of our client. So sometimes people get confused because they think they are sending emails to me and they are sending emails to that other person.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] What about cafe?

Moroni Ortiz [00:17:39] Yeah, that was a big difference.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Explain that to never Mormons.

Moroni Ortiz [00:17:43] Well, and I think it might be

John Dehlin [00:17:45] different in Latin America than even in the United States. But you tell me.

Moroni Ortiz [00:17:49] Well, I'm going to tell you my experience and then you tell me if that's different. So in the church we have what we call the word of wisdom, which is a commandment that we receive. It's like a health code to take care of our bodies. And part of the things that we shouldn't be consuming is alcohol, smoking, any kind of whatever. Not drinking coffee or tea. I mean, the way that I was explained that is that I shouldn't be consuming any Chinese or black tea. But we usually drink other kind of like infusions like chamomile or cinnamon or whatever that's allowed. But we don't drink any coffee. We don't drink any substance with alcohol. And we pretty much take care of our bodies and our health.

Cultural and Family Life as a Mexican Mormon

John Dehlin [00:18:38] How common is coffee drinking in Mexico?

Moroni Ortiz [00:18:41] It is really common. And actually, how about for kids and teens yeah, it is common.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [00:18:46] Yeah, yeah, it's pretty common. And for example, the region where I am from, it is actually. There are coffee like fields there. There's actually a nestle plant there where they process coffee and all that. So it's part of the cafeteria area in Mexico. So I think that for my parents, it was pretty common to drink coffee. My dad has told me that he remembers when he was a kid, he would go to her aunt's house and she would continually prepare, like we call it Cafe de Hoya, which is like coffee with some kind of special sugar, that regional sugar, Mexican sugar, and that said that it's really tasty. So my dad said that one of the things that he missed. Yeah. After he became. It was not like a sacrifice from what he says, but he misses that taste really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] I'll just share a comment from one of our viewers. He writes, my parents named me Ammon. So we have an Ammon joining us as well. Hey, Ammon. Ammon's a pretty intense character in the Book of Mormon.

Moroni Ortiz [00:19:53] I know. And I have to tell you, my mom always used to tell me, like, she named me Moroni after Captain Moroni. And you know that in Alma, when.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] Oh, because there's two. Yeah, there's two Moroni in the Book of Mormon, right?

Moroni Ortiz [00:20:05] Yeah, there's two Moroni in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] That's true. So not the final Moroni who buries the plates and meets Joseph Smith. It's the military general.

Moroni Ortiz [00:20:14] The military general, yeah. And there's a description in the Book of Alma about Moroni and his righteousness and how he was like a great guy and a great soldier and a great captain. So that was the verse in the scriptures that inspired my parents to name Immor.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] And I guess I'll ask this now, like, did you. Did your parents teach you that the Book of Mormon was a literal history of, you know, the ancestors of. Of current Latin Americans and Native Americans? And did your family consider yourselves to be Lamanites or descendants of Laman and Lemuel from the Book of Mormon?

Moroni Ortiz [00:20:58] Yeah, definitely. That's something that was taught since I was a kid. Actually, I have a story about my mom regarding that, because when she was in elementary school, she was taught about Quetzalcoatl. Quetzalcoatl was an Aztec God who came from heaven and visited them and promised that he would come back later. And actually, it is told that when the Spanish people came to Mexico, the Aztecs thought that Hernan Cortes, who was the conqueror, was actually Quetzalcoatl because he was white and with beard and all that, which was the Quetzalcoatl description. So when my mom was in elementary school, she said that Quetzalcoatl was Jesus Christ.

Moroni Ortiz [00:21:37] So that's what she tell her teacher. And she got grounded because of that, because she was pretty much blaspheming the name of Jesus. And then when she converted to the church, when she read the Book of Mormon, she's like, oh, then I was right. Then Quetzalcoatl is actually Jesus Christ. And yeah, so I was really taught that we were descendants from Lamanites, like literal descendants.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] And with that would come the teaching that your skin was darker because of the wickedness of Laman and Lemuel, and that that dark skin curse got passed down to you, basically. How did you and your family process the fact that according to the Book of Mormon, your darker skin and your Lamanite ancestry would all be wrapped up in a curse from God for wickedness of your ancestors?

Moroni Ortiz [00:22:27] I think I got conscious of that when I was a bit older, probably when I was 11 or 12 years old. But I remember that I had questions like, but why were the Nephites destroyed? And I mean, when I was a little kid, right, when I was probably like six or seven, but why were they destroyed if they were the righteous one and if they were not cursed? And why did the Lamanites prevailed? And then you know that the answer is there in the Book of Mormon. So there's an explanation. When the Lord told Nephi that his brother's descendants were gonna be like, the ones who were gonna be like, in the, like, going after his descendants if they were wicked and all that.

Moroni Ortiz [00:23:10] So that's pretty much what my mom explained. I remember that some of the explanation from my parents was like, well, after Jesus visited the Americas, the Lamanites became like a delightsome people, right? They were righteous and delights them. So at some point there stopped being that difference between Lamanites and Nephites. And then again, because of sin and all that, it came back. And I remember when I was probably 11, I asked my parents like, hey, but this is weird, right? So we are the descendants of those who were not that righteous. And they were like, yeah, but we're part of the house of Israel, so we're literal.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] It like balances out. Yeah, you're dark skinned because of the wickedness of your ancestors. You're the pure blood of Israel. You're Jews, basically.

Guest [00:23:54] I think that's exactly how we see it. I. I think that's exactly how we see it.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] So it kind of offsets.

Moroni Ortiz [00:23:59] Yes, yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:24:00] Because we're kind of proud, you know, because. Because we are. We have the literal blood in our. Running through our veins.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] And U.S. white House of Israel.

Moroni Ortiz [00:24:10] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:10] And you're adopted into the House of Israel.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Oh, interesting. So you had superiority over us white Mormon Americans. Right.

Guest [00:24:18] Well. And the Book of Mormon doesn't. My understanding is that it kind of says that the Lamanites are going to flourish and they're going to be the ones running the church at the end, you know, before Jesus comes.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Well, let's be clear. The Book of Mormon is written for the Lamanites.

Guest [00:24:32] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] Like it's us white people. We're the secondary audience for whom the Book of Mormon was intended. Correct?

Moroni Ortiz [00:24:39] Yeah, that's correct. And that's what I was thought also that. Yeah, but they are adopted to the House of Israel. I mean, you see like cultures, leaders, that's their role in God's plan. I mean, they are adopted. They are helping gathering Israel, but we are the House of Israel.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] So. Hear that, white Mormons, you're the second class citizens. Moroni and Gerardo are the first class Mormon citizens, right?

Moroni Ortiz [00:25:02] Yeah, that's part of what I was thought, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] All right. Anything else you want to share about your Mormon upbringing, including any stories from your Mormon upbringing that were really important to your faith development?

Moroni Ortiz [00:25:15] Yeah, absolutely. So covering my childhood, I don't remember any Sunday where we didn't attend church. Even when we were on vacation, we would attend church wherever we went on vacation. I also remember that we were the kind of family that wear the like shirt and tie all Sunday long. So it was not allowed for us to change clothes after church.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] So you stayed in your church clothes?

Guest [00:25:38] Yes.

Moroni Ortiz [00:25:39] All Sunday long, white shirts and pants,

John Dehlin [00:25:43] Kept your corbatas on all day?

Moroni Ortiz [00:25:45] All day, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] Holy moly.

Moroni Ortiz [00:25:48] We had the korbatas all day.

John Dehlin [00:25:49] Yeah. Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [00:25:50] And then I remember that I would think of members who were not wearing their church clothes all day. Like, why aren't they wearing their church clothes? Is there something wrong with them? Or are they not as faithful as we are?

John Dehlin [00:26:03] And they would say in Guatemala.

Moroni Ortiz [00:26:04] Yeah, I would. I would think that sometimes I also have to say that my dad was a church employee. He's a civil engineer. So he was a church employee for the construction department in the 90s for seven years. At that time, the church was building a lot of chapels in Mexico, so he was hired for that. He was supervising a certain regional area in Mexico where they were building many Many chapels. That's the reason why he was traveling a lot when I was a kid.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] Okay, okay. I. I know you have at least one story about President Hinckley visiting Mexico City. Do you want to tell that story?

Moroni Ortiz [00:26:43] Absolutely. So in that context.

John Dehlin [00:26:46] And I guess if you want to talk about your baptism or anything before that, go ahead.

Moroni Ortiz [00:26:49] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. Well, I was baptized when I was eight. Of course, it is crazy because when. In 1997, when I turned eight, my birthday was on Sunday, so I thought that I was gonna be baptized in my actual birthday, but my dad was out of the country that specific week, so I was not baptized on my birthday. And then my parents said, like. Kind of like to compensate. We were living in Mexico City because that's something important. I have to say. I have lived in more than 10 wards, 10 different wards in Mexico during my life. And that was mostly because of my dad work.

Moroni Ortiz [00:27:27] So when I was three years old, my parents moved to Mexico City. That's when my dad started working as a church employee. And then we moved to Guadalajara because of his work. And then we came back to Mexico City. So at that time, it was the second time we were living in Mexico City. It was us. The family that we had close by was us and one of my mom's sisters, who was pretty much our neighbor.

Moroni Ortiz [00:27:51] My uncle, my aunt's husband was also working for the church at the time. Again, he's a civil engineer. He was working at the same department along with my dad. They were peers. And so what they did is that they told me, like, well, you're not going to be baptized. That's at least this is how I remember that situation. They told me, like, you're not going to be baptized in your birthday because your dad is going to be out of the country on a trip. But we're going to baptize you in Jalapa, which is where they were born. So we started making arrangements to get baptized in Jalapa.

Moroni Ortiz [00:28:20] So we started traveling to Jalapa every other week to attend church there. And the stake president was really acquainted with my dad. They were friends. So at some point, my dad told him the plans that I was going to be baptized there. And then he said, like, no, you should go back to Mexico City and baptize him in your ward in Mexico City. And my dad, I believe at the time, he was again, counselor to the bishop at that time.

Moroni Ortiz [00:28:45] Every time we moved from one ward to the other, he usually got called as a bishop's counselor. So that I was really used to seeing my dad like sitting up front in the stand. Yeah. And my mom was the one taking care of us.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [00:28:59] Yeah. So I remember that when I got baptized. Well, I got baptized then in December because a few months have gone by and we were trying to make that happen in Veracruz, but that didn't happen. And I remember also, I also remember one time when my dad was a high counselor at sacrament meeting. I had to pee, I had to use the restroom. And we were like singing the sacrament hymn before the passing sacrament. I was probably like 8 years old and my mom was the music director. She was asked that specific Sunday to help with music direction. So I was there on my own.

Moroni Ortiz [00:29:39] I decided to go to the restroom while there were, while they were singing. And I came back just when they were closing the door to pass sacrament. And then my mom told me like, oh, I don't think you should partake of the sacrament because you were not reverent during the prayer and the hymn. And then I told her, well, I had to go to the restroom. And then she said like, okay, then you can partake of the sacrament. So that's how I was raised. That was pretty much my parents culture. They were really like. I was taught that it was not only like a religion or going to church on Monday.

Moroni Ortiz [00:30:15] It was the way that we perceive the world, our reality. We believe that the Book of Mormon was actually a historical book. We believe that we came from Lamanites, that Jesus visited America and all that.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] And Joseph Smith.

Moroni Ortiz [00:30:28] And Joseph Smith was what was a prophet, definitely. He had seen the Father and the Son and then he translated the Book of Mormon using the golden plates and the Urim and Thummim and all that. And that's the way I was born. I was raised.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [00:30:43] Yeah. And then Gordon McGinley, 1999, I guess he visited Mexico City at a big stadium. It was like a big arena. The Palacio Los Deportes, that's what it's called in Mexico City. And I remember we were there at the meeting. It was a huge meeting. Many members. Mexico City is a huge city. And even though church members are not that much in Mexico, if you go to Mexico City, I guess there are more than 30 stakes right now in Mexico City, probably less because of all the changes that they have been doing. But at the time there were probably like 20 different stakes. So it was a lot of people there.

Moroni Ortiz [00:31:17] And I remember that we got there, we sat at our chairs and just keep in mind that for an eight or nine year old kid, you were Seeing a prophet. So someone who had direct communication with God. And at primary classes in church, they teach you that the prophet can speak face to face with God. So he's a really special person. So I remember I was sitting there at the stadium, and then President Hinckley raised, and he came and started talking. And then I had that feeling in my chest and I started crying. And my brother was crying and my cousin was. No, not my cousin.

Moroni Ortiz [00:31:58] Yeah, my cousin. My cousin was crying. And then the three of us were crying. And that was a really solemn or a really, like, important moment in my life because later I understood that experience as my spiritual confirmation that President Hinckley was a prophet, because he was there standing. I don't remember a single word he said, but I remember that he stood there and I was looking at him. I was like, oh, wow, this is God's prophet. This is God's mouthpiece. And I started crying. And that was like one of the building blocks in my testimony.

Guest [00:32:33] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Wow. Okay. So anything else about your childhood before we moved to your adolescence?

Church Teachings on Sexuality and Adolescence

Moroni Ortiz [00:32:42] Well, I would really. I really like church. I was the kind of member who always likes to answer and participate and,

John Dehlin [00:32:51] like, you were more Nephi than anything, right?

Moroni Ortiz [00:32:53] Yeah, I was trying to be. Striving to be Nephi. Right. More Nephi than Laman or Limul. So Laman or Limul. Yeah. So I was always trying to participate. Answer. And I remember the Sunday programs, the primary sacrament programs.

Moroni Ortiz [00:33:10] And for those who are not members or never members of the church, once a year, all the kids at church participate and collaborate and prepare one special Sunday meeting where they take the stand and they sing children's songs and all that. So pretty much all during the year, you prepare for that specific Sunday. So you learn and you practice all the songs in primary school on Sundays. And then you also have to prepare a brief talk, or you have to memorize a scripture, and then you have to say that a scripture, that specific Sunday. And I still have memorized some of those descriptors that I. That I had to share when I was probably 7, 6, 7 or 8 years old. And I still remember those descriptors.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Wow. Okay. So I guess. I guess things really start getting serious in your teen years, right. When you start to go through puberty and you're adolescent. Should we jump there?

Moroni Ortiz [00:34:09] Yeah, yeah, definitely. So when I was probably nine years old, eight or nine, I don't remember exactly, at school, they explained to us what sex was. I mean, how babies were brought to the world. And at that time, I was a Kid. I mean, I had no hormones in my body. So for me it was like, okay, then that's how nature works and that's it. And I remember I spoke about that with my mom and she explained and she said that it was something that you should only share when you were married and all that. She didn't say that it was something wrong. I mean, to do that.

Moroni Ortiz [00:34:42] She didn't share any shaming thoughts regarding sex. She was just explaining what it was. And we had an encyclopedia, a kids encyclopedia with drawings and all that regarding how kids come to the world and stuff like that. So I was taught that when I was a kid and that was it. And then, oh, I know that something that I didn't know before, but now I understand, and that's it. And then when I was a teenager, when I was probably like 12 or 13, you know that hormones start, like developing your body.

Guest [00:35:14] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [00:35:14] And then you start having different feelings regarding probably the opposite sex. I remember that I always like.

John Dehlin [00:35:19] Or the same sex.

Moroni Ortiz [00:35:20] Or the same sex. Absolutely. I remember that I always like girls. And I always told my mom when I was. Even when I was in. In kindergarten, like, oh, I like that girl. And then when I was in a message, I like that girl, and I want her to be my girlfriend. And I was just like that. I mean, that was my nature. But it was not something.

Moroni Ortiz [00:35:41] Something sexual. Right. It was just like I thought that the girl was pretty and that's it. And then I remember that. That I started, like developing and having some sexual feelings. And then I thought there was something wrong with me because at certain point when I was probably 13, at the youth conference, the stake president split the group into two. So all the young men went to him. Went with him to one room, and all the girls went with the other sisters. And we had some.

Moroni Ortiz [00:36:11] We had a talk about it. What he shared was there's a talk by spend. By spending the bookmail by Boy K. Packer, which is called by Only for youth or for young men. Only for young men only.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [00:36:27] And there's even a pamphlet that. That they have with that talk. So he pretty much shared that talk.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] Is this the little Factories pamphlet?

Moroni Ortiz [00:36:35] Yeah, that's a little factory pamphlet.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] Okay, okay. Where it likens the male reproductive process to a factory that creates sperms.

Moroni Ortiz [00:36:44] But it doesn't say sperm, but it's. It is implicit there.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] And it basically says something like, you know, if you let it run its course, it kind of gives the impression if you let the fact little factory run its course, you'll have wet dreams or nocturnal emissions, and that's the way the body handles it. But what you don't want to do is speed up the little factory by doing anything that would make it produce sperm more quickly than it normally would. Is that right?

Moroni Ortiz [00:37:09] Yeah, that's correct.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] That's.

Moroni Ortiz [00:37:11] That's what the pamphlet explained. But it is explained in. It is using, like, euphemisms, so you don't really get what it is said. So I remember that at that time, I didn't really know anything about masturbation or those topics. So I was a bit confused after that talk because I was like, okay, I get that the little factory, and I get that these are wet dreams, I guess. But then what is that about the speeding up and how does that happen? And it left me with more questions than answers. But then I didn't share that with anybody. I was probably like, I was not feeling probably comfortable about that topic.

Moroni Ortiz [00:37:49] So I didn't share that with my parents or anybody. It was just last weekend when I was talking to my mom about coming to the podcast that I told her, like, this happened when I was a young man and the stake president splitted us, and then we had this explanation and she didn't know about that. So I didn't tell that to anybody. But it was weird. And then, you know, at school, now that kids are older, I was in middle school at this time, and they are older and they sometimes make some comments, like double sense comments regarding sex or regarding doing those things. And then that's how I learned what masturbation was.

Moroni Ortiz [00:38:26] I remember that they were calling one of my schoolmates a name, and I didn't know what that meant. So I asked one of my friends and then he said, like, well, do you know what masturbation is? I was like, no, I don't know what that is. And then he said, like, well, it's when you touch yourself, like, sexually. And I was like, oh, okay. I didn't know that was a thing, but okay. And, yeah, that's how I learned about those topics. So I think that. Well, I want to think. Or my perspective is that the stake president had the best of intentions sharing this with us, but probably the way it was taught and the way it was explained, it was not as straightforward as it should be because you should call names the way that they are.

Moroni Ortiz [00:39:09] You should call your penis. Penis and whatever. So, I mean, I don't see a problem with that. It is actually recommended by a specialist, right? That you even. Even with little kids, like, you should teach them how to call each part of their body so that if something happens, they can actually explain with the proper name.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Yeah. And how did the church's teachings about masturbation affect you? You know, as your adolescence progresses, did guilt and shame develop? You know, how did that happen?

Moroni Ortiz [00:39:40] I don't think not only masturbation, but any sexual feeling, then you start developing those sexual feelings. And then as you don't talk about that with anybody, as it is something really close, it's, like, taboo. Then you get or. Well, from my perspective and from my experience, I thought that there was something wrong with me. I thought that it was only me who was experiencing these feelings, because I thought, like, well, the President Packer says that you are gonna dream something, but it doesn't explain how you're gonna feel about it. So I thought that there was something wrong with me when I started developing those sexual feelings.

Moroni Ortiz [00:40:19] And that generated a lot of guilt and shame in myself, because then I was ashamed of talking about it. Then I thought, maybe I should talk to my parents. But maybe this is a sin. Maybe this is Satan who is tempting me, and I just have to be strong enough not to get into that temptation. So that's something that I tried to handle on my own, all those feelings, and never talked about that with my parents. And I remember at some point when I was probably, like, 14, some schoolmates brought inappropriate content to school, and I was with them. So when they pulled that out, I saw some images.

Moroni Ortiz [00:41:02] And then I thought, like, maybe I'm gonna be excommunicated from the church because I watch some indecent images and all that. So, yeah, it generates a lot of guilt and shame because it is not openly discussed, and I think it is still not openly discussed as it should be. So you end up generating certain ideas in your mind that that is wrong and that is something unnatural and.

Moroni Ortiz [00:41:26] Or probably something natural. But, you know, that natural man is an enemy of God, so you should, like, be better than that. And that generates a lot of guilt and shame.

Guest [00:41:37] Yeah. How about interviews? Because, like, today is very common for bishops, you know, to ask. Or when I was growing up, was really common for bishops to ask you on interviews. As a young man. As a. You know, as a young man, like, hey, do you masturbate? Have you watched pornography? Are you doing these things? Did you ever have that experience of bishops asking you?

Moroni Ortiz [00:42:01] Probably when I was. I was probably 14 or 15, one bishop asked me if I had watched any inappropriate material or pornography. And I answered him, like, honestly, like, yes, there's sometimes on The Internet, you know, there are some images, but I try not to watch them, and it's not something that I'm looking for. And then he said, like, well, then that's okay. I mean, sometimes you will find that content, but you just had to get rid of it or not pay attention to that. So it was not questioned too often. And just to be completely honest, I remember that I had interviews with my bishop when I was going to be called, when I was going to be extended a calling, like, for example, being the deacons quorum president when I was 12 or 13, or when I was gonna be called as a counselor to the teacher's quorum president, or when I was gonna be a bishop's priest assistant or whatever.

Moroni Ortiz [00:42:55] So those were the only times when I had those interviews. And when we were gonna visit the temple for a temple recommend at that time, it wasn't as today. And to give you some context for the audience right now, if you're a youth or if you are not an endowed church member, you get a temple recommend which lasts for. Is valid for a year, and then you have to have another interview after a year to get another year recommend. But at that time, it wasn't like that. So bishops had to fill on a paper where they would write down the names of all the group that was attending the temple for baptisms, and that's when I would have those interviews.

Guest [00:43:33] So it was every temple trip that

Moroni Ortiz [00:43:35] they would interview you. Right. It should have been every temple trip. But sometimes bishop said, like, oh, you went last month or two months ago. So then I'm just going to write your name down.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] I thought temple recommends lasted two years.

Moroni Ortiz [00:43:47] Is that not well, for members, it's two years.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Oh, for you.

Moroni Ortiz [00:43:50] But for you this one year.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] I didn't realize that.

Guest [00:43:52] Yeah, but it used to be that you were supposed to get interviewed every time you went to the temple. There was no recommends for youth.

Moroni Ortiz [00:44:00] When I was younger, that was the policy. Like, you have to interview youth every time they go to the temple. But sometimes because of school or because of other activities, I was not attending every month. So I would probably attend the temple every four months or every three months. So I wouldn't be interviewed that often.

Early Encounters with Church Truth Claims

John Dehlin [00:44:19] You mentioned your outline around age 12, coming on some TV programs or comedy that talked about Mormon Church truth claims in ways you hadn't understood church history to be. Do you want to tell that story?

Moroni Ortiz [00:44:33] Yeah, absolutely. So I was at school and I had some really progressive classmates sort of speaking. They were really into understanding politics and getting content from different places. So there's a caricaturist in Mexico that is. He has a surname that is Rios. And in one of his items, one of his.

Moroni Ortiz [00:44:54] How do you call that? The comics, One of his comic books, it talks about religion and among other religions, he talks about Mormons. And I remember that in one of those comic books he mentioned about Joseph Smith using a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. And I was like, no, that's not the way that it happened. I mean, he had a Urim and Thummim and then he had to read the plates and using the Urim and Thummim and then he would translate or get the words that were written in the plates. So I remember I told my friends, like, that is not how it is.

Moroni Ortiz [00:45:27] I mean, I'm a Mormon. I know the truth about church history. So I was really like eager about this and really bold, like, nah, that guy is lying and that's not true. And then I remember I went home and I told my mom, like, hey, you know, my friends brought this information and this is what they are saying. And then she told me, like, well, people are going to say many things about the church and there are going to be many anti Mormon lies all over the place. So just keep that in mind and just continue develop your testimony and believing in what the church is explaining.

Moroni Ortiz [00:46:00] So that was one of the first contacts that I had with anti Mormon literature. So to speaking, I was probably 13 years old and it was shocking. I mean, it was shocking getting that information. But then I believed what my parents were saying. I believe what I was taught at church at the time. So I said like, it doesn't make sense that he would use a hat to translate. And I just forgot about that.

John Dehlin [00:46:25] All right, here's a quick test. Finish the sentence. Yesterday's anti Mormon literature is today's. What?

Moroni Ortiz [00:46:33] Mormon truths?

John Dehlin [00:46:35] I don't know. What's your answer?

Guest [00:46:36] Mormon approved history?

John Dehlin [00:46:39] Gospel topics essays? That's the way to say it. Yeah, sorry. Okay. Do you want to tell the story about Thomas S. Monson coming and your mom talking about your testimony?

Moroni Ortiz [00:46:49] Yeah, absolutely. So, well, let's go. Like from. How do we call it? Well, yeah, let's start with the one that happens first. When I was probably like also like 12, 13 years old, the temple in our temple district was going to be dedicated. So before that people had to travel to Mexico City to go to the temple. We lived in Jalapa, Veracruz at the time. Really close to the coast, but not in the coast, in the mountain.

Moroni Ortiz [00:47:18] Like one Hour or hour and a half from Veracruz city. So that meant that we were going to have a temple closer to where we were living. We would have to take a one hour drive and we would be at the temple. So we were invited to that dedication. So we had to travel from Jalapa to Veracruz and we attended the dedication at a stake center in Veracruz. So we had to wake up really early in the morning that Sunday and it was probably 4am or something like that. And I remember I was half asleep. I didn't want to wake up because it was really early.

Moroni Ortiz [00:47:52] And then my mom started calling me like, hey, wake up. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm coming. And then I was half asleep and then I was still laying in my bed. And then she asked, like, tell me, do you believe the church is true? And I told her, yes, I believe the church is true. And then she asked me, why do you believe it is true? And I replied to her, well, I believe it is true because of the facts.

Moroni Ortiz [00:48:14] And I wanted that story to be told here because it is a bit funny now thinking that I am here talking to you in Mormon stories also because of the facts, a few years later and with some more understanding about the church. But I still rely on the facts.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] Yeah. Well, let's talk about how your testimony developed. You attended seminary, is that right? Talk about the development of your Mormon testimony from like middle school to your final year in high school or secondary or whatever you call it.

Moroni Ortiz [00:48:49] Yeah, absolutely. So keep in mind that we were really, really good Mormons or we were trying to do the best to like to comply with the rules and the commandments and everything the best that we could. So we were a really devout family. So speaking. So when I was about to turn 14 and in Mexico, seminary is not the same as in the US or at least not the same as here in Utah. I guess in some areas in the US you have early morning seminary, don't.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Yeah, I did growing up in Texas.

Moroni Ortiz [00:49:19] And you attended early morning seminary?

John Dehlin [00:49:21] Yeah, 6am I had to be at the church to, you know, every day of my high school career, basically.

Moroni Ortiz [00:49:28] So it is the same in Mexico. You have to attend early morning seminary or evening seminaries. But in my word, it was early morning seminary. And my mom was called as a seminary teacher when I turned 14 because you start attending seminary at age 14 and the first course was probably the Old Testament. And I couldn't skip any classes because the seminary was at my house. So kids would come to my place to have seminary in the morning. And then after that they would leave for school. So they would probably arrive at 5:30am and my mom would wake me up and then I would wake up, probably take a shower or sometimes shower afterwards.

Moroni Ortiz [00:50:08] But I would attend seminary at home and my mom was my seminary teacher. And I liked that. It was exhausting and I mean, but. But I liked it. I like the way that kids came to my place and the way that we interacted, the way that we were taught. My mom is a great teacher. So not because she's my mom, but she really is a really good teacher.

Moroni Ortiz [00:50:34] So she does that as a profession now. So it was good. It was overall good. I was learning a lot and I was an intense Mormon and probably started developing some scrupulosity as I explained regarding some commandments. So I was really trying to do my best in seminary to learn and interact and all that. So that was my first year of seminary. And then we moved to Monterey. So we arrived in a ward and there was already a seminary teacher who was called. So that second year I had to attend seminary again, early morning seminary, but at church.

Moroni Ortiz [00:51:12] So it was more difficult. I would not attend some days because I wouldn't wake up. Sometimes I didn't hear my alarm or I left it going and my dad didn't wake up either. So I would miss some seminary classes. But I was one of the youth that was continuously there. I was one of the young men who was continuously attending and I approved all my seminary courses and I was always participating. And then the third year, my mom was called again as the seminary teacher. So they called two teachers in our ward and again one teacher was teaching seminary at school. But for others who were living not as close to the church, my mom was giving seminary at our place.

Moroni Ortiz [00:51:56] So that third year was the Book of Mormon and that was the first time that I read the Book of Mormon from beginning to end. So imagine that your mom is your seminary teacher and she's telling you like, hey, you have to read your class assignment and then you cannot skip that. I mean, she's there all day. So I ended up reading the Book of Mormon, almost the whole book, when I was probably 15 years old at seminary. And it was a good experience. I learned a lot from the Book of Mormon. I learned a lot about all these culture that you were mentioning, about the Lamanites, the Nephites, the visit of Christ to the Americas, how it developed, how Moroni ended up like burying the plates in the ground and all that.

Moroni Ortiz [00:52:42] So it was really interesting because that's something that I believed to be true. But I had never read the Book of Mormon on its entirety. It was the first time when I was 15. And I remember that I came to Moroni Moroni 10, 4. That's where you find that promise that if you pray about the Book of Mormon not being true, then you're gonna get an answer that it is true. And I remember that I started that exercise, and I did not receive an answer, like, fast. I didn't receive a fast answer. I remember that, for example, when I was in middle school, I had some questions about the church, and I knew there was a possibility that the church wasn't true and probably we were being deceived.

Moroni Ortiz [00:53:24] But then I attended church and I attended seminary, and I started getting more convinced. And then the part that was like, the big change in my life was the DNC course on seminary. Because if I had any question about Joseph Smith being a prophet, it disappeared during that year.

Moroni Ortiz [00:53:49] Reading the dnc, reading how all the revelations were coming through, how the church was being restored, how the priesthood was restored, how they built a temple and then they built another temple, and all the persecution, and actually reading. There are some really powerful sections in the DNC, like section 121 or section 120, where Joseph Smith was in jail. And then he writes down or he dictates some words that the Lord is giving him to give him comfort and counseling him, that are really, really powerful when you read them as a young man. So I remembered one specific lesson. It was about science camp.

Moroni Ortiz [00:54:36] And there was a video. And I remember that I watched that video. I was at home because Semira was at home. So my mom played that video, and there they explained how science camp happened. That's when the people from Missouri were getting persecuted and the prophet was in cure land. And then he gets a bunch of people to go and save the saints in Missouri. But when they are in that trip or in traveling to Missouri, they get into some problems in the middle of the way. And then there's a mob that is starting chasing them. And then I remember at one point, they run out of water.

Moroni Ortiz [00:55:17] So they start, like, complaining with Joseph about not having water. And then he takes a shovel and start, like, digging the ground, and he gets water. And I was like, wow, that was like. And even in the video, they say, like, it was like. Some people said that it was like when Moses got water from the rock and all that. And I was like, well, that's amazing. And then at some point in the video, the mob is there and they are camping between two rivers. And then some mobsters come, and they ask for Joseph Smith, and then he shows himself, and they say, like, yeah, we're going to kill you tonight, and you're going to be in hell tomorrow, and stuff like that.

Moroni Ortiz [00:55:52] And then all the people that was there with Joseph, they said, like, well, that's what we came here for. We came to fight. And then Joseph stood in one of the carriages, and then he said, like, brothers, brethren, look at the salvation of God. And then it starts raining a lot, and the boat rivers get, like, high, and no people can cross. And they are in the middle of both rivers, so they are not caught by mobsters, because it started draining. And I remember that after those lessons, I remember the way that I felt. And that's when any little doubt that I had about Joseph Smith just disappeared completely.

Strengthening Testimony and Preparing for a Mission

Moroni Ortiz [00:56:32] And that's when I renew my decision on serving a mission, on doing the best that I could to keep all the commandments. That was a big part of my conversion. And just keep in mind that when I was probably eight or nine, I had that experience with Gordon B. Hinckley. And then I understood that experience as well. I know that he's a prophet. And then on seminary, I get that same kind of feelings, like joy, happiness, you know, you feel something in your chest. And then I said, like, well, then that's my testimony that Joseph Smith is a prophet because of all the things that have happened and the way that things developed.

Moroni Ortiz [00:57:15] And I got convinced because of that, and I felt that here in my heart. And then when I was probably 17. Yeah, I was probably 17 or 18, I don't remember, but there was a rededication on the Mexico City temple. So President Monson came to rededicate that temple. And I remember that he had been called as a prophet a few years, probably a year earlier. But I did not have that experience yet where I got a confirmation that he was a prophet.

Moroni Ortiz [00:57:47] So I was looking for that spiritual confirmation or that experience that just let me know that he was a prophet. So he came to Mexico City, and I was attending that rededication from my Stecc Center. So I was looking at the transmission, and I remember that I was sitting on the front of the sacrament.

Moroni Ortiz [00:58:08] The chapel, the sacrament room. And I was looking at the screen. And then President Monson stepped up and started talking, giving a talk. And at some point he started speaking in Spanish, because he took Spanish classes, classes at school, I guess. And he started singing a song, like a typical Mexican song. And then I started crying. Again. And at that time, I understood that as my confirmation that he was a prophet. So those were part of, like, the biggest pillars in my testimony was knowing that Gordon Mc Hinckley was a prophet, knowing that Joseph Smith was a prophet because of all the content that I studied in the DNC Seminary course and those feelings that I got from those historical facts that I studied at the time, and then learning that President Monson was a prophet because of what I felt at that moment in the screen during his talk.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] So by the time you graduate from high school, your testimony is what?

Moroni Ortiz [00:59:11] My testimony was as strong as it could be. I mean, I was certain, I was sure that the church was true, that President Monson was a prophet, that the Book of Mormon was true. And also, one important thing here that it's important to mention is that also the Book of Abraham was really important for me because I had some skeptical friends at school, and many of the answers that I could give to them regarding if God existed or not came from the Book of Abraham and from all the explanation regarding the creation and the universe and planets and kolav and all the intelligences that were created before the world was made.

Moroni Ortiz [00:59:52] And so when some of my skeptical friends or my atheist friends asked me questions about God and they said, like, no, God doesn't exist because it doesn't make sense how the earth was created. And then, no, but look at the Book of Abraham and look at all these explanations. So the Book of Abraham was another pillar in my testimony. It was really, really important because it gave me many answers that I couldn't have gotten any other way. And for me, it was a big difference between the church and any other church because they wouldn't have those explanations. And at that point in my life, any question that I have had regarding the gospel or the plan of salvation or any question related to our religion had been answered.

Moroni Ortiz [01:00:39] So I was really happy that, well, this is the only church that provides every answer that you need to your questions. And if you have any answer, you can go back to any book or you can go back to the prophet's words and you're going to get that answer. So that was also a really important pillar in my testimony, the Book of Abraham.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] Really quick, what type of student were you? Were you a pretty good student? Did you have a sense for what profession you might be pursuing? And then we'll talk about how you ended up serving a mission and what influenced you to serve a mission when and how you did?

Moroni Ortiz [01:01:13] Absolutely. So I was a really good student at high school, like Starting high school and all the way through college, I was a really good student. I was an excellent student with high grades and all that. So I even ended high school with honors. And I was the highest average, the highest grade in my generation. And the school where I studied was a multi campus school, it was a multi campus university. So they had campuses in different cities in Mexico. So I was one of the highest scores for nationwide and even got a recognition when I graduated from school because of that, because we had to take a test and I was the highest score in that test for the whole multi campus university. So I was.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] You could have done a lot of, you could have gone to some great colleges, you know, you had many options in terms of higher education.

Moroni Ortiz [01:02:12] Yeah, absolutely. So I, there were, in my mind they were only two options that I would consider. One was tech, the Monterrey Technological Monterrey, which is one of the highest ranking universities in Mexico, it is one of the top universities in Latin America. And the mit, maybe like the Mexican mit, something like that.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [01:02:35] So that was one option. And the other option was to continue studying at the same school where I was studying high school, which was sponsored by TEC de Monterrey, but it was not Tec de Monterrey. Right. So those were pretty much the two options that I had. So I remember I got admitted to take the Monterrey. I, you have to pass a test. And I passed the test and I had a high enough store to apply for a scholarship. But then I also knew that I had to serve a mission. So I had that important decision because I have already decided what I wanted to study.

Moroni Ortiz [01:03:11] I wanted to major in marketing. That's what I finally ended up studying, majoring, but I had to go on a mission. And my parents told me, well, if you go to Tecda Monterrey, we can pay certain amount of money, but the tuition is really high, so it's not possible for us to pay full tuition. And I was able to apply for a scholarship, but I had known of people and friends who left on a mission. They were admitted, they probably studied two semesters at Tecne Monterrey and then they left for their mission. And when they came back, situations changed. They were not able to get back that scholarship or their family situation was different and they were able to pay full price.

Moroni Ortiz [01:03:52] And some of them would end up with high debt, school debt, or having to transfer to a different university or starting all over again because they were not able to transfer their credits. So I knew that was going to be an issue. And I remember I talked to my parents about My options. And then they told me like well look you are 16 because I entered elementary school a bit younger. So I was 16 when I finished high school. And they told me you're 16 if you stay in this school where you're studying as they offer three semesters a year, you can finish faster. So by the time you are 20 you can finish your college studies or school and then you can live on a mission or you can go to Tec de Monterrey and yeah, apply for that scholarship and then in the middle of that live on a mission or finish college and then go on a mission.

Moroni Ortiz [01:04:43] And I remember well as you are taught always in the church, the leaders tell you that you have to go on a mission as soon as possible, right? That the Lords need you right now, it's up to you. But if you have to decide, it better be the sooner the better, right? To serve a mission. So I remember that was a big decision for me. I was also selected for another program and they offered me a full scholarship. But then they asked me about my plans, like what are your plans after you graduate? And I said like well I have to serve a mission, a two year mission for my church.

Moroni Ortiz [01:05:19] And then they told me like we want you for this scholarship. It was a full tuition and they were going to give me like a monthly fee, like an allowance, a living allowance all through college. And they told me like you are selected but we don't like you going on a mission. I mean we will give you this scholarship and you're going to be selected to this program but with the commitment that you are not going to be serving a mission during or after your college students studies. And that's when I decided well I'm not accepting this scholarship, thank you so much. But I'm convinced and I know that I have to serve a mission.

Moroni Ortiz [01:05:55] So I said no. And then because of the time and because yeah my parents suggestion made sense at that time, I said like okay then I'm going to stay at this school, I'm not going to take the Monterey, I'm not going to take that risk of not being able to continue my studies or having some trouble after coming back from my mission. So I'm just going to stay in this school finish and then I'm going to leave for my mission. And that's what I did.

John Dehlin [01:06:22] Turn down a scholarship to a super prestigious university to serve a mission.

Moroni Ortiz [01:06:29] Yeah, I turned out that scholarship and I turned out the opportunity to go to that prestigious university.

John Dehlin [01:06:35] It's a big sacrifice for me.

Moroni Ortiz [01:06:36] It was at the time and the way that I felt it, it was like, okay, I'm giving this up, but the Lord is going to compensate that later.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Yeah, okay.

Guest [01:06:47] Yeah. I wanted to ask you about the. You had mentioned to us about there was a general authority who mentioned or told you that God needed you to go on your mission now. And that was part of the influence, you know, that made you decide you

Serving a Full-Time Mission

John Dehlin [01:07:06] want to tell that story.

Moroni Ortiz [01:07:07] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not going to say the name of that general authority, but he is a Mexican general authority. He was living in my ward at the time. And I remember one time we had a one to one conversation and he pretty much mentioned like, what are your plans? Because I was already 18. And then he told me, when are you living on a mission? And then I was like, well, I'm planning on finishing school, I'm leaving by when? I'm probably close to 20 years old and all that. And then he mentioned like, well, because he asked me, what do you think about that?

Moroni Ortiz [01:07:35] How do you feel about that? And I was like, well, I don't know, I'm gonna ask God. And then he pretty much said like, well, the Lord needs you right now in the mission field. I mean, it's like, there's not something that you have to ask about. I mean, the most important thing is that you have a plan, definitely.

Moroni Ortiz [01:07:50] But consider that the Lord needs you. If you ask the Lord, he's going to tell you, like, I need you in the mission field right now.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] So. Yeah, well, that's a lot. I mean, a general authority is like almost like an apostle to a believing Mormon kid. So there's a lot of influence there, I guess, right?

Moroni Ortiz [01:08:10] Yeah, there was some influence definitely from that comment, like, okay, I have to plan. I have to really plan through and the decision is up to me. So I have to do my best to decide correctly. Right. Because then the Lord has said that he wants me right now. So if I'm deciding not to go right now, then it's going to be up to me when to leave and the sooner the better.

Guest [01:08:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:32] So do you want to talk maybe just a tiny bit about what your early mission was like and then we'll talk about you learning about the second anointing on your mission.

Moroni Ortiz [01:08:41] Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I left for my mission and there's something that I have to tell you right now. When I was preparing to leave on a mission, my stake president was called as a mission president. And you know that they get trained so they have to come to Salt Lake City and they have to stay here for a week for a missions president's training program. But before that, because they get called like six months before they are booked to come here to Salt Lake City and get set apart and all that, they give them content that they have to study. So they give them some DVDs and some, it was some audio, was some CDs at the time it was 2008, 2009 probably.

Moroni Ortiz [01:09:21] And those CDs were the seminar for new mission presidents of the previous year. So my mission president, my stake president didn't speak English that much. So he asked like, hey Moroni, could you help translating this for me? Like recording the translation? And I said like, yes, I was preparing to go on a mission. So for, for me was like, well it's great to be able to hear to the mission president's training program before leaving on a mission.

Guest [01:09:47] Let me just say that I remember like I was an assistant to the president when I was a missionary. And like our mission president would gatekeep those CDs like he wouldn't let us get close to them. So that's a big deal I think to get access because those are not recorded, they're never streamed. You know, sometimes some parts of it get leaked or the church decides to publish sections. But yeah, they're kind of gay keeped.

Moroni Ortiz [01:10:15] Yeah. And the way that I saw that is that, well, the stake president trusted me enough to help him. So I was really happy to help him.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] Yeah. You're Valiant, you're Nephi.

Moroni Ortiz [01:10:27] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:10:27] You're both Moroni and Nephi at the same time.

Moroni Ortiz [01:10:30] As I left on my mission when I was 20 or almost 20 years old, I was ward executive secretary for two years. And that same mistake presidency president interviewed me for that calling. And I remember when he interviewed me and I accepted the calling, he then told me like, well, from now on if the bishop asks you to jump, you just ask how high and then you just jump. And that's the kind of mindset that you are that you grow up with.

John Dehlin [01:11:01] Yeah. Okay. So your mission was what ages?

Moroni Ortiz [01:11:05] I was 20 to 22. So I, I sent my papers when I was 19.

John Dehlin [01:11:09] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [01:11:09] But by the time I left my mission, I left a week after my 20 year old birthday.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] Okay. Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [01:11:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] And how was your, how was your mission? Where'd you go? And again and how was it?

Moroni Ortiz [01:11:20] I served a mission in Cuernavaca, Mexico. So I was called in to Mexico. My experience was good. Overall. There are challenges in your mission, but my mission president was a great guy. He's a great guy. He ever sees this episode shout out to my mission president. A great guy. He helped me a lot. I also worked closely to him. I was also an assistant to the mission president for a while, so I had that experience. So at the beginning, it was difficult. I mean, I remember coming to the MTC and when I was going to attend the temple for the first time in my stake president interview, I told him that I was worried about sometimes finding, like, pornography or not proper material on the Internet.

Moroni Ortiz [01:12:04] And then I remember his answer was like, well, look, for me, pornography is like Coke, like Coca Cola. So it's like, you know, it is there, but I decide not to drink Coke. And it's the same with pornography. I know that it's there, but I decided not to participate in it. So he said, like, just don't do it. Don't look for it. If you find anything, just look to the other side and you're gonna be good. And then he signed my. Let's sign your recommend. And then I attended the temple.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] It sounded like what he was saying is, it's. I mean, don't do it, but it's not that big of a deal if you do. Is that right or not?

Moroni Ortiz [01:12:38] Well, I think that was the message. But still you have that guilt and shame that. Well, it is not some. This is not correct. It is not something that you should do. You're a priesthood holder, so you shouldn't be looking at that kind of content and. And being completely honest. It is everywhere.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] But he didn't compare it to, like, killing babies or, you know. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Moroni Ortiz [01:13:00] That's right. He compared that to Coca Cola. So I guess that's not big of a deal. But you can't even drink Coke and attend the temple, so. Right. I guess that was his message. His message, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] That's a positive framing as far as I'm concerned.

Moroni Ortiz [01:13:13] Yeah. And I was really happy. So when I attended the temple.

John Dehlin [01:13:16] You mean relatively positive framing, I should say.

Moroni Ortiz [01:13:19] Yeah, it's like a stake president's roulette then.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] Yeah, that's right.

Guest [01:13:22] Was this your stake president or your.

Moroni Ortiz [01:13:24] It was my stake president, yeah.

Guest [01:13:25] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [01:13:26] So, yeah, so I attended the temple for the first time. My parents were really cautious about the temple, so I had never seen their temple clothes before attending the temple. So when we went to the temple store to buy those clothings and I saw some green fabric, I was like, what's that green thing? I think everything was white in the temple, so.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] Me too. Yeah, I had the same Reaction.

Moroni Ortiz [01:13:49] Yeah. So I attended that. I remember at some point there are some things that caught my attention first when they said, like, if you are not willing to participate and take these ordinances on you, you can stand up and leave. And then I said, like, well, I don't know what the ordinances are. What covenants am I gonna make? So I guess I just stay. I mean, but there's no other way to find that out. And then I remember at some point in the endowment ceremony, I looked around, I said like, ah, this is why people say we are a sect or we are a cult.

Moroni Ortiz [01:14:24] I get it now. Okay. This is different. I mean, I was not. I was not surprised by the content because everything that you see in the endowment ceremony is in the scriptures, like 99% of it is in the Pearl of Great Price or in the DNC and all that. So I was not surprised by the content. I was more surprised by some of the rituals that you do there. And it was different. I said, like, well, what year did you go in? 2009. Okay, so the. The initiatory ceremony was different already. It had already changed.

Guest [01:14:59] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [01:14:59] Where you.

Guest [01:15:00] You were wearing the shield, right?

Moroni Ortiz [01:15:03] No, I was. I was wearing the. And like. Yeah, yeah. What's the shield is like the.

Guest [01:15:09] The thing that you put like, over.

Moroni Ortiz [01:15:11] No, it was not the poncho. It was not the poncho anymore.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] Was it open on the sides? No, it was closed. It was closed.

Moroni Ortiz [01:15:16] No, no, because I was expecting that. Because I was told that at some part in the temple, before getting your garments, you were gonna get. Wear one piece of fabric that was like open on the sides, and you'd

John Dehlin [01:15:27] be fully naked on the sides and they'd be sticking their hand in there touching you.

Moroni Ortiz [01:15:31] I didn't know that at the time. I was not explained that I was gonna. Fully naked and I was gonna be touching certain parts of my body. But I knew that there was that poncho that you use for a certain part of the temple ceremony. So when I got there and I got to the changing room and then one of the temple workers told me, like, well, you're gonna go there, you're gonna put on your garment and you're gonna dress up with this. I think it was an over or something. I don't quite remember. And then you go through the initiatory ordinance, then I was like, okay, I thought it was going to be different maybe, maybe later in the temple, but I was told that that was before wearing your garment. So I was a bit confused there. And I later Understood that they have changed that ordinance.

Guest [01:16:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:13] Bobby England, who is one of our viewers on Facebook, says that the poncho was eliminated in 2005.

Moroni Ortiz [01:16:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] So everything past 2005 was post poncho.

Moroni Ortiz [01:16:26] Yeah, I was four years late.

John Dehlin [01:16:28] Okay. Yeah. And then there's another. There's another Facebook viewer that's like, oh, my goodness. What? They touched you? Yeah, yeah. Before 2005. So, like, when I went through the Mormon Temple, you put on this silk, white silk poncho that was just completely. You're naked and completely naked on the sides. And during the washings and anointings, in my case, an old man would dip his finger in oil and touch different parts of my naked body, including my groin, to anoint me as a king, you know, in the hereafter, a God, and as a king in heaven, to be a God and a king. And then the church in the modern age started getting so much flack for kind of naked touching in the temple that the church sewed up the poncho and stopped the naked touching on the naked body.

John Dehlin [01:17:18] And you just got anointed on your head. Is that right? A single time. But for 200 years, like, it was the naked anointing thing.

Moroni Ortiz [01:17:28] When I found that out, that was many years after my first temple experience. But I found that a bit disturbing. And I said, like, well, at least women are, like, doing that for women and men for men. But then I found out that at the early church years, it was only men performing those ordinances on women. On women.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] Yeah, yeah. And other men. Yeah. He could be problematic either way. Okay, so. But you. But did the temple cause you to question your testimony or. Not really.

Moroni Ortiz [01:18:02] No, not really. I remember that I still had those feelings of guilt and shame. So even before entering the temple, I was a bit worried that, well, okay, I have spoken to my stake president and everything, but maybe I'm not worthy.

Moroni Ortiz [01:18:17] I feel like I really was a scrupulous young man because I was really liking to being super obedient on everything. And if I didn't pray one night, I would feel guilty the other day, the whole day, and stuff like that. So I was really worried, like, am I really worthy enough to enter the temple? Maybe I am not. Maybe whatever things have happened in my life in the past, and maybe I am not worthy enough. So I was worried about that. And I remember that once I was in the celestial room, some members approached and they greeted me and congratulated me for receiving my endowment.

Moroni Ortiz [01:18:52] And that feeling of warmth from coming from other members that made Me feel happy. So I left the temple happy. And I attended the temple one more time before leaving on my mission. So I attended two times.

John Dehlin [01:19:04] Okay. All right. So there's lots of things you mentioned learning from your mission, but one of them is about the second anointing. Do you want to tell that story?

Learning About the Second Anointing

Moroni Ortiz [01:19:15] Yeah, absolutely. So you know how missionaries talk about many different things. And then you have some, like, missionaries are in different stages in their faith. So you have some recent convert missionaries and then you have those who are sons or daughters of area 70s or general authorities, or they are the grandson of certain general authority or related to an apostle or something like that. So you have people coming from different backgrounds and you start interacting with them. And one of those missionaries mentioned about second anointing. And one casual conversation he mentioned, like, hey, you know that in the temple there's this second anointing where they give you, like, they make your call and election.

Moroni Ortiz [01:19:56] Sure. And you see Jesus Christ at the temple, then when you receive that, then. Then I was like, you are not being serious. I mean, I don't think that's something true. I have never heard about second anointing. I have always been active. I have been close to my bishop and my stake president for a while. My parents have served in leadership position, my mom at the stake level. My dad also has a high counselor. So I was like, I was even in the same world as a general conference, as a general authority. So I don't think that's true. Maybe that's some gossip. Maybe someone made that up.

Moroni Ortiz [01:20:28] I didn't really believe about second anointing and I didn't pay much attention. But that was the first time that I heard about second anointing. And I remember probably talking to other companions about it and they said, like, no, I don't know about that. Let's just focus on the basics and teaching the gospel to the people and let's worry about that later in our lives. So, yeah, I heard for the first time about second anointing during my mission.

Guest [01:20:57] What's problematic about the idea or the teaching or the doctrine of second anointing in your mind? Why would that buggle a missionary or bother them?

Moroni Ortiz [01:21:08] I think that first, that it is not something that is known in the church.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] If it's okay, let me jump in and just say we'll include a link in the show notes to the Tom Phillips episode. Tom Phillips was a British former stake president and bishop who knew Elder Holland, the apostle personally who received his second anointing and then lost his faith afterwards. And then came on Mormon Story's podcast and told the whole story. But basically, you're called into the temple. You're usually a wealthy, influential Mormon. You're called into the temple. Secretly, you're told not to tell your. Even your children what you're doing. You arrive there, it's usually like on a Sunday when the temple shut down. And then an apostle, a Mormon apostle greets you and several other couples, and you're anointed as someone who has achieved the status of godhood in the afterlife, basically, and told that unless you murder somebody, literally, you're guaranteed to become a God someday in the afterlife.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] And it's just a way to sort of like. It's almost like a knighting process in the. In the United Kingdom royal, you know, ceremony. It's like basically telling a Mormon they've arrived and that they don't have to worry about it. They're going to be a God. But I think it's also a way to. To really seal someone's commitment to the church once they're in their advanced years and have a lot of money and have a lot of power and status. It's a way to reward them and also seal their commitment to the church. And. But they're basically. There's a. There's folklore that once you receive your second anointing, that you get to be visited by Jesus Christ and that, you know, and.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] And then also, like the apostle, I think the apostle washes your feet and your spouse's feet, and I think the wife washes the feet of the husband in a special part. And all this stuff is withheld from general membership knowledge. To this day, most Mormons don't know that this exists, but it happens regularly in Mormon temples. So, anyway, that's what it is. Now, talk about Gerardo's question of why that might be problematic.

Moroni Ortiz [01:23:23] Can you repeat your question, please? Yeah.

Guest [01:23:25] So as a Mormon missionary, you're learning that there might be this secret ceremony that you don't know about that the church doesn't really talk about, but the apostles are involved in. Why would that bother you or why is that problematic?

Moroni Ortiz [01:23:40] Well, I think it is problematic because it is intended to be kept from the general membership. Because when you are young and you haven't been endowed, you don't know what's happening in there, but you know that exists. You know that there's a ceremony that is called the endowment. You know that there are ceilings in the temple, and you know all that. And you know that you can perform Baptist for baptisms, for the dead in the temple and all that. And when you are grown in the church or when you have grown in the church and you are explaining about temple ordinances, you are told that sailing to your spouse is the highest ordinance or the top ordinance that you can perform in the temple. So getting to know that there is an additional ordinance other than the ceiling, because I have been to.

John Dehlin [01:24:31] That's secret. That's top secret. Yeah, yeah, that.

Moroni Ortiz [01:24:33] Top secret that. Because even in. In. In English, in the English version of the Sunday school manual, in, in chapter 19 about making your call election shirt, I think it was on the part of great price or something like that. There's a note that you should not discuss topics regarding second anointing in your Sunday school class. So it means that it is there, but you are not supposed to talk about it.

John Dehlin [01:24:56] Yeah, yeah. And anyone who studied kind of cult literature, one of the top 10 or 20 signs of a cult are. Is literally like with Scientology, advanced levels or secret levels in the organization that are kept not just from the general public, but from the membership. That's a sign of an unhealthy organization. When these super secret levels of advancement that are. That aren't generally known because why are they secret? You know?

Moroni Ortiz [01:25:27] Exactly. And, and then you don't really know and you mistrust those sources. You can say like this is not true, or I don't think the church would do that. But that's the part that is.

John Dehlin [01:25:39] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [01:25:40] A little bit.

John Dehlin [01:25:40] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [01:25:41] Troubling.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] Okay. Okay. What else would you like to say about your mission and, and you know, as it related to your faith then or your faith now or, or your feelings about the church.

Moroni Ortiz [01:25:55] Yeah, definitely. So I. I strive to be the best missionary that I could. The first probably four months to six months in my mission were really, really hard. I. I was in a difficult area, I guess. So even though we were. And I didn't really know how to do missionary work, so it was hard. The first few months were hard. And again, those feelings of probably you not being worthy enough to be on a mission come to mind. So I remembered that I started questioning like, maybe this isn't working because I am not worthy enough or because I am not good enough to be a missionary, or maybe because I did not, maybe I forgot to confess something to my bishop or my stake president.

Moroni Ortiz [01:26:43] So I remember that after a few months I. We had interviews every six weeks with my mission president. And I told him my concerns, like, hey, president, I'm feeling like this. And again, I told him about all the sexual Shaming that I was carrying on. And then he helped a lot because he helped me again understand that it was not a big deal, that as we grow up as humans, that's something that has to happen in our bodies, like having those feelings. And he even said, like, why do you think that most of the people get married in their 20s? That's because we'll have hormones, and that's what the natural development of your body is.

Moroni Ortiz [01:27:21] So I remember leaving that interview feeling better. And then I got transfers and was transferred to a different area. And then things started to move forward. After a few months, I was called to train a new missionary, and I was a district leader trainer. After that, I was called as a zone leader. And after being a zone leader, I was called to be an assistant to mission president. So I always live with the feelings that I'm not good enough at the things that I do, whether it's a church or at my job or in the mission field. But then I started getting more responsibilities, and I started thinking, like, well, maybe I'm doing something right because I'm getting some additional responsibilities.

Moroni Ortiz [01:28:06] The experience was overall good. I was a devout, dedicated missionary. I just remember one time my mission president in one zone conference, told us and challenged us to read the Bible. He said, like, we usually focus a lot on the Book of Mormon, and that is great. The Book of Mormon is the best missionary that we have. But it is also important to learn about the Bible. And I encourage you to read the Bible from beginning to end, like the whole Bible, the Old Testament, the New Testament. And I took that challenge seriously. And so I started reading the Bible. And one of the promises or the comments from my mission president was that we were going to understand after reading the Bible, we were going to be able to understand that God was the same in the Old Testament and in the New Testament and in the Doctrine and Covenants and in the Book of Mormon.

Moroni Ortiz [01:29:00] So I started reading and reading and reading, and I came into a point, probably after reading half the Old Testament, where I was really confused about many of the teachings from the Old Testament. And I was starting thinking, like, is this really the same God that talks in the dnc that God of the Old Testament who commands weird things and I don't know, has a completely different approach to people and to the things that he says to his prophets?

John Dehlin [01:29:31] Not just weird things, kind of murderous and genocidal things.

Moroni Ortiz [01:29:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] Right.

Moroni Ortiz [01:29:36] Exactly. Yeah, that's correct. So you say, like, well, he loves all his children, but they were not living the highest law of The Gospel. But then this is too harsh, and you start having those questions. And then I decided to continue reading. I said, like, well, I have started. And I remember I didn't discuss these questions with my mission president, but I told him that I was reading the Bible and I got stuck at some point. And then his answer was like, well, you have to pay the price. If you want to read the Bible completely, you have to pay the price. And the price is to go all through all the boring parts of the Old Testament and all that. So I continue reading. I remember that I had some questions there, like, why is this teaching these? And why.

Guest [01:30:22] Yeah, well, let me just say really quick because I. I relate to this quite a bit. Just reading the Bible as a Mormon is really hard. Trying to square everything into a Mormon mindset. You know, you have this idea of who God is, what the commandments are, what a prophet should be, and the Old Testament and even the New Testament, having to, you know, read chapter after chapter and try to frame it into a Mormon mindset is really, really hard. And. And I think maybe that's why a lot of. I mean, this is the first time I've heard a mission president encouraging missionaries

Moroni Ortiz [01:31:03] to read the Bible.

Guest [01:31:04] It's usually the opposite. I know my mission president would tell us not to and just focus on the Book of Mormon. And I think part of it is there's so much cognitive dissonance of reading the Bible, and there's so many parts that you can't just square with a Mormon mindset.

Moroni Ortiz [01:31:21] Definitely I didn't know at the time, but what I was feeling and what I was experiencing was cognitive dissonance because of reading the Bible. So I handled those issues myself. I didn't tell any of my companions, nor did I tell my mission president. And I just continued. I kept going. I was a zone leader at the time. And then I was called to be an ap. And I served as AP for a while until two transfers before finishing my mission. My mission president asked me, like, hey, if you can get a choice, how would you like to finish your mission? And I told him, like, well, I would like to train a missionary and I would like to go to this area and this other area.

Moroni Ortiz [01:31:58] And then he told me, like, well, I have to pray about it. I have to consider this, but I'll let you know that I will consider your comments and see what I feel about it. And I ended up training one new missionary in one of those two areas. So I was super excited because I knew that president would sometime ask his APs where they wanted to finish their mission. That's something that I knew he did sometimes and I was really glad that he asked and that I was able to choose how to finish my mission.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] Beautiful. Okay, really Quickly, the Holic 5, Jrturo Fernandez and Alan Lapratt have all given donations and we just want to thank them for their donations. Thank all of you on YouTube that are willing to give us super chats to help fund this and just thank everyone who supports Mormon Stories Podcast. You can go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor by clicking on the donate button. And we couldn't do this without your support. So thanks so much to everyone who's supporting and we're having great comments coming in as well. So thanks to everyone who's supporting us with comments.

John Dehlin [01:33:04] Okay, so you finished your mission. I guess you mentioned poverty. Seeing extreme poverty on your mission, that was a really important thing for me. But I was from the United States and then I was in Guatemala. Seeing extreme poverty in Guatemala. Not like there is an extreme poverty in the United States. There is, yeah. But I mean, if you're sheltered, growing up in a middle class environment, no matter where you're raised, you just don't get exposed to extreme poverty. But in Latin America, I don't know, for me, it was just a different level.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] Like, I remember seeing huge piles of garbage at a bus depot and then seeing a mom with a baby rummaging through the garbage to try and find food, like with a dog, you know, running around. Like, it was just shocking. Why did you note in your outline poverty as a part of your mission experience?

Moroni Ortiz [01:33:50] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:33:51] Especially being from Mexico.

Moroni Ortiz [01:33:52] Yeah. So. Yeah, because there are extreme situations of poverty in Mexico and there's some kind of difference between the north of Mexico, where I live, to the south of Mexico.

John Dehlin [01:34:04] So it gets more impoverished the more

Moroni Ortiz [01:34:06] south you go, the more south you go.

John Dehlin [01:34:08] Yeah. Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [01:34:09] So, I mean, we were not wealthy. I'm not coming from a wealthy family. We're middle class. Mexican middle class. And sometimes at school or when you're young, you usually focus on what you lack. Like, I don't have the newest cell phone or I don't have the most fancy or the fancier laptop or whatever. But those were the kind of things. Or I am not driving a brand new car and my friend is, or somebody gave a friend a new truck or stuff like that. And then you say, like, well, I don't have that kind of money. I don't have that kind of lifestyle. But when I left on my Mission, and I went to Guerrero.

Moroni Ortiz [01:34:50] Mostly I could see extreme situations of poverty. So I could find people who lived in, like, small cabins made of wood with plastic ceilings. And they didn't have a bathroom, for example. They didn't have a place for a shower or if they needed to go to the bathroom, they have to go up the hill somewhere and hide themselves and just do their needs there. So it was really, really extreme. And it was really changing my mind because I understood what poverty was in some places in my own country that I haven't seen before. So I thought that probably being poor was having no Internet and probably having, yeah, basic ceiling or something like that, but not living on dirt floors.

Moroni Ortiz [01:35:39] And I didn't dimension how much of the population lives like that. And plus, they have tons of kids. They have probably four kids, three kids, five kids. And they live in those conditions. So you end up saying, like, what's going on? I mean, how can we help these people? And sometimes I would even wonder, like, well, we are preaching the gospel. We are changing the people because we're sorry, helping people because they're gonna get saved, they're gonna get salvation. But what's gonna happen with their, like, temporal situation? Temporal means.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] Okay, did that affect your testimony at all or no?

Moroni Ortiz [01:36:18] I don't think so. I remember that at one point I was writing a public transport, a bus. And then one people. One guy came in and he said that he used to be a drug addict and that Jesus had saved him. And he was asking for donations for certain Christian group that helped people in this condition, like drug addicts. And I remember, I thought at that time, like, why don't we do that in the church? I mean, we're trying to help people. We're bringing the gospel. But what happened with these people who are addicted to some substances, and they cannot leave that addiction on their own. And that's probably the only time that I question, like, is what I'm doing really making a difference on people? But other than that, that didn't challenge my testimony. I have questions.

Guest [01:37:05] Was your mission person in an American mission president or.

Moroni Ortiz [01:37:09] No, he was Argentinian.

Guest [01:37:11] Okay. How was your perception as a missionary or even growing up in the church as to, like, the amount of money and power and wealth that the church had? You know, you're in Mexico, you see the chapel. Sometimes they're old. You're going to an old chapel. You know, impoverished areas, they're probably. They're not even chapels there. And then sometimes comments, you know, that you get from the leadership in the church oh, we need to be careful with the money. We shouldn't be helping people that much because, you know, we need to be careful. These are the church or the Lord's funds. So what was your perception as to the church's wealth and power?

Moroni Ortiz [01:37:53] I think I was a bit biased on that because of my dad, because he worked for the church for a while and he was a construction supervisor. So he was in charge of the budgets for building construction, not for temples, because that's managed from headquarters, but for local buildings and up to a certain amount of money, even remodelings. So I knew that there was money. I knew that building new chapels cost millions of pesos, thousands of tens of thousands of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars. So I knew that the church had money, but I thought at the time that, well, they have to take care of this money because it is the money of tithing.

Moroni Ortiz [01:38:36] So people is making a huge sacrifice to pay tithing. So the church has to be cautious on the money they spent. And I did not dimension the amount of money that I know now that they have. Like with all the information regarding the church investments and all that.

Moroni Ortiz [01:38:53] Didn't dimension the amount of businesses that the church operates in the US like the sort of ranches, the desert media, the ksl, all those different businesses and others. I didn't dimension that size of the church. I knew that the church had money, but I didn't dimension the amount of money that it had.

Moroni Ortiz [01:39:14] And definitely regarding helping people and fast offerings, I was told, and since I was executive secretary, I remember that we were trained by leaders and sometimes people from the area were coming to train us as bishoprics and they would always tell us to be cautious on how we spend that money because we were supposed to.

Moroni Ortiz [01:39:38] There's a say that they use that we are supposed to help on basic needs, but not on lifestyle. So I'm going to help you pay your basic needs like food or electricity or water supply or whatever. But I'm not gonna pay, for example, a cell phone bill or stuff like that. So that's the way that the culture and the way that it is enforced over in Mexico. So definitely I did. I didn't have an idea or I could not visualize how much resource. How many resources the church has.

Guest [01:40:13] Yeah, yeah, well. And then you're paying your own. I don't know how it was when you went. But, you know, missionaries pay their own way, even if they're, you know, yeah,

Moroni Ortiz [01:40:22] we pay smaller fee than Americans, but we have to pay a monthly fee. And it's still like that today.

Guest [01:40:28] Yeah.

Return from Mission, Marriage, and Early Adulthood

John Dehlin [01:40:31] Okay, so. So you. I mean, becoming an assistant to the president, there's really no higher sort of achievement as a missionary. So you're kind of a golden boy by this point. You're achieving your goal to simultaneously be Moroni and. And Nephi. So far in your story. Let's just talk. Just try and condense, coming home from your mission, what you felt like your goals and objectives were. And let's just briefly talk about dating, getting married, and your early years in your marriage.

Moroni Ortiz [01:41:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:41:08] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [01:41:09] Yeah. So I came back from a mission in 2011. One of the things that you're. Well, in my case, my mission president told me, it's like, okay, you have served for two years. You have been focusing on other people. Now it's time that you. You have to still focus on other people, but you also have to focus on yourself. So make sure that you have a plan. Make sure that you follow that plan. And the promise is that if you do your best, the Lord will bless you. And one of the things that you have to focus on is on finding your eternal companion. And, well, again, the fastest you find her, the better.

Moroni Ortiz [01:41:41] I mean, no pressure. My mission president didn't get married, like, really young. He got married a few years after his mission. So he was like, don't follow my example. I'm not the best example on that, but if you can just get married younger than me. And then I took that seriously. I also know. And I spoke to my parents, and I knew that the next step was marriage. So I arrived home. I was, like, super enthusiastic and energized. You know how people come back from their missions, and they are super energized and want to do many things at the same time. So I started by.

Moroni Ortiz [01:42:16] I had already finished my bachelor's degree, so I started looking for a job. And I found that a bit difficult because it is difficult to explain to people who is interviewing you, like, hey, what happened in these two years? Why did you finish school and then left for two years? And why are you coming back right now? What did you do during that time? And so that was a bit of a challenge.

Moroni Ortiz [01:42:36] Still after a month or after three weeks? Three weeks after coming back from my mission, I got a job as an English teacher. That's a bit crazy. My English is not the best. I know, but I was hired. It was good enough to be an English teacher.

John Dehlin [01:42:51] Your English is outstanding.

Moroni Ortiz [01:42:53] Thank you, John. You are being nice to me.

John Dehlin [01:42:55] No.

Moroni Ortiz [01:42:57] So I got that job as an English teacher. It was a Part time job. But I said like, okay, I'm going to have an income, I can continue looking for a full time job and let's see what happens. And that's what I did. I started, I continued sending resumes to other companies and then they called. Finally, after probably seven or eight months, they called, they hired me, and I ended up working at the same university. What I studied in a central area, but I started working there.

Moroni Ortiz [01:43:25] And meanwhile I was. Well, the first months, when I arrived to. When I arrived home, the first few months were weird for me. And for me it was difficult to mingle with other young single adults. Most of my friends before my mission were already married or were on their missions. So I came back pretty much on my own, trying to find the right people. And you know how. I don't know if it is the same here in Utah, but in Mexico sometimes, even though there are not many members, you get like close groups of people that hang out together and it is sometimes difficult to, to get accepted into those groups.

Moroni Ortiz [01:44:06] So that was a bit difficult for me at the beginning. I remember I wasn't really into attending institute classes, for example. And then one friend told me like, hey, you should come. And I was working in the afternoons, so I wasn't really able to attend institute. But then she told me like, there's this class that is really late at night, even if you arrive late. I mean, the teacher is really understanding on that. So come. And I started getting into institute, getting to know more people. I was invited to the students council in the institute and that's where I met my wife while being in that student.

Moroni Ortiz [01:44:41] After I was invited to that students council, things changed because you start participating more and planning activities and then you get a little more visibility by other young adults. And that helped a lot. And that's how I met my, my wife.

Moroni Ortiz [01:44:57] She was, she was also. She was born in Monterey, but then she left and then she came back for, for college. So she was finishing college when I met her. We were introduced by a friend and I thought like, she's good looking, she's a good looking girl. But nothing else. And after a year after that, I remember I saw her again.

Moroni Ortiz [01:45:19] I was friends with one of her cousins. So I went by to say hi and I noticed her and I was like, she's really good looking, so I like her, so I'm gonna talk to her. But then I forgot. And a week after that she texted me because I was an institute teacher at the time. And she started asking about that institute class and I Remember? And I never stopped talking to her till today. So that's pretty much the story. But in that time, I remember I was really worried to find the right person. Sometimes I would even think, I, I'm probably not gonna get married.

Moroni Ortiz [01:45:52] I may not find the right one because I saw many other people, many missionary friends, mostly from the US that were married, like, after a few months. Yeah. And at that time, I had already been back from my mission for two years. Looking in hindsight, I. I think, like, it was fast. I got married three years after my mission, but at the time, it felt like an eternity. Like coming back from a mission till getting to know my wife and getting married and dating other girls before and not really working out. And not working.

Moroni Ortiz [01:46:25] Yeah. So that was pretty much the story of how I met my wife. We met on institute activities. We continued dating. We were super active at that time. I was called as the Elder Quorum president in my ward. I was single. I was probably 23 when I was 24, I guess. 23, 24. When I was called as an Elder Scorum president.

Moroni Ortiz [01:46:44] It was challenging because you have to deal a lot with adults, and they start questioning if your ideas are correct or if the way that you are doing things is the best way to go. And I remember that it was a bit harsh.

Moroni Ortiz [01:46:55] Members were a bit harsh with me sometimes, but still, I was the Elder Scorum president for more than a year before getting married. And. Do you want me to. Do you have any question, or should I just.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] I'm curious, how faithful was your. Was your wife? And. And when you got married, what were your common goals in terms of, like, how your life was going to be relative to your married goals, but also your relationship to the church?

Moroni Ortiz [01:47:23] Definitely. I have to confess something, which is going to be a bit creepy. I had a checklist on who I wanted to marry. I guess many returned missionaries have checklists on what they are looking for in their companion, their eternal companion. So in my case, I had a checklist. She must have a testimony, be active, willing to have a family. She should have finished college or at least been close to finish college, or at least have that desire and continue studying and preparing herself and pretty much being interested in church, just as I was living the gospel, attending the temple and doing everything that you're supposed to do, and raising our kids within the gospel.

John Dehlin [01:48:11] Yeah, okay.

Moroni Ortiz [01:48:12] So that was pretty much my checklist. And when I met her, I started, like, dating her and asking her questions. I have to tell you, I could have probably dated other girls, but I Didn't. Because they didn't fit what I was looking for. And that checklist that I had. So that. That's. I'm being completely honest on that. I mean, of course, it was about getting in love and liking the person that you're dating. But that other part was also important. So she was. Some people even called us when we were just married. Ah, you're super Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:48:45] So she was super devout.

Moroni Ortiz [01:48:47] Yeah, she was super devout.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] And you felt. Just to be clear, you felt like getting married at age 23 or 24, you were getting married late.

Moroni Ortiz [01:48:54] I was married at age 25, and I felt that for church standards, it was a bit late.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [01:49:01] I knew that for the world and for all my friends outside church, it was not. I was getting married super young, and I was even questioned sometimes, like, why are you getting married? You're 25. What are you thinking on? But then I was like, well, I know what the plan for my life is, and that's what I want to do.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [01:49:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:18] Yeah. Okay, so. So we're gonna let you take a quick break, and Gerardo and I are gonna just maybe take some comments or. Or review some things from our viewers and listeners. We're doing this on the live stream. Gerardo, so far, I'm just curious how. How. How familiar is this sounding to you? Is there anything that's different about it? You know, you. You also come from Mexico. And then also, if. If any of our viewers want to share any comments or reactions so far, we'll share them while we're giving Moroni a break. So. Go ahead, Gerardo.

Guest [01:49:56] Well, what I was thinking, I. I was thinking about why he mentioned the. The age of. Of getting married.

Moroni Ortiz [01:50:04] Yeah.

Guest [01:50:04] It's really interesting how, you know, an American church can come and impose its standards or culture into, like, a totally different culture, language, and country. And, you know, because, like he said, like, most of my friends are barely getting married and. Yeah. And. But Mormon youth in Mexico are encouraged to get married as soon as they come back from their missions. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] One of the parts of his story that are. That's kind of makes me really think, because I remember when, like, Spencer B. Kimball or Ezra Todd Ben and came to Houston when I was a kid. And I remember, you know, I think it was the summit, which is where the Houston Rockets used to play, and we filled it up as Mormons. And just how the energy of having a prophet come to your city and then all the Mormons gathering, I. I can relate to that energy.

John Dehlin [01:51:01] So from that lens, as. As someone who experienced something very similar where he was crying. You know, he talks about crying and feeling the spirit when the prophet comes. I get it, I lived it, I experienced it. Makes total sense to me as someone raised Mormon, when, now that I look back with kind of this colonialization lens that it's a super wealthy, powerful, corporate American white church that's coming to a another country where people's skin color are different, their culture is different, their predominant religions are different, and there's a different socioeconomic status, there's a power differential. When an American white, super wealthy church prophet comes to a more developing country, how, what that, what that's going to feel like to someone from a Latin American country.

John Dehlin [01:52:01] Do you have any comments about that? Because part of me gets it and then part of me is a little bit disturbed when I look at it from a colonial lens. Does that make sense?

Guest [01:52:10] Yeah. And that's kind of something I had in mind too when he was talking about that. Just thinking about the colonial, colonialism aspect of it. There's also part of like some kind of mystery when the language is different, you know, and this person is supposed to be talking to God directly in a different language than yours and he has, he needs a translator. But sometimes they'll tell jokes or sing something in your own native language, like

John Dehlin [01:52:39] throw out a Spanish word here or there. Right. Or a little song. Yeah. And what does that make you feel?

Guest [01:52:43] Well, just make you feel like really important. You know, this guy that talks to God is, you know, speaking my language. Even if it's like a minimal effort.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] Yeah.

Guest [01:52:54] But yeah, it's just really interesting and it makes me think that, I mean, other religions are, have been really successful doing that kind of stuff, like Jehovah Witnesses, they do that in Mexico. They rent like huge stadiums and do these kinds of events still. I mean, turns out I think they, they, they accomplish what they're meant to, which is, you know, have this feeling, euphoric feeling for, for the audience of like, look at all these people that believe the same as me.

John Dehlin [01:53:23] Yeah.

Guest [01:53:23] And we're all focusing on this one or, you know, whatever, many leaders that are going to speak to all us all.

John Dehlin [01:53:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess this. And welcome back, Marana. We're just commenting on a couple things. Like, you know, there's this well known dynamic within Mormonism that if you serve a mission in Latin America. Let me back up. If you're called as a Mormon missionary to like Germany or England or Sweden or Denmark or France, you'll be lucky to have one baptism in two Years like Europeans don't want to hear Americans come over who are Mormons to like, they're educated, they're affluent, they're not poor.

John Dehlin [01:54:09] And you know, they know what, they know what a high demand religion or a cult is. And like Mormon missionaries knock on your door and it's like, who are you? Why are you here? Not interested. You know, that's, that's why those European missions are so hard. Not the case when a Mormon missionary goes to Latin America. I, you know, in my mission it was very common to have 10 baptisms a month and there were some missionaries that had 40 baptisms a month.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] And you know, it's when you're going to a super lower socioeconomic status village and you're these tall, white, blonde or brown haired, sometimes blue eyed American kids with white shirts and ties and ZCMI suits and fancy shoes and you're coming from America and you're relatively super rich and your church is relatively super rich and powerful.

John Dehlin [01:55:05] You were able to have success in ways that you couldn't get away with in any other developed country. And, and I'm just mindful of that power differential and the way that, that bears influence on people in Mexico or Latin America in ways that it just doesn't elsewhere in the world.

Moroni Ortiz [01:55:27] Definitely, definitely. I mean, even with girls, right? There are many American missionaries who baptize a ton of girls because they are good looking or they, sometimes they are not even that good looking, but just because they are white and tall.

John Dehlin [01:55:40] And isn't there this, this perception among Latin American young women that maybe if they convert to the church, maybe one of these gringo missionaries will end up marrying them and taking them to the United States. There's a, there's a real power differential that leads to, I believe, undue influence that we haven't really dug into here.

Moroni Ortiz [01:56:03] Yeah, definitely, definitely that happens. And I know a few who had done it. I mean, they got baptized and met a missionary and now they live in the States.

John Dehlin [01:56:12] Yeah, yeah. So it's. Anyway, so what's really interesting is how

Guest [01:56:19] in Mexico or Mexicans have been able to embrace an American religion and really make it their own in some ways. And sometimes you can see the, the challenges that the American religion and the American corporate of Mormonism faces when you know, Mexico is trying to kind of like separate itself from, from, from the American religion. In, in some ways, you know, you see how they change. Sometimes the area authorities, they're Mexican and then sometimes, oh no, we got to put Americans there again. There's, it's just A really interesting dynamic that happens. I mean, a lot of it has to do with, you know, the Book of Mormon being written for, you know, Latinos, Polynesians, is easier for them to embrace the culture as well, because it's written for them than, you know, Europeans or other cultures.

John Dehlin [01:57:27] Yeah, yeah. When I was a missionary, I'm like, these Guatemalans are so lucky because I'm going to come down and tell them their ancestors, tell them who they are. Really, they think they know who they are. But we as Mormons, we as white Mormon missionaries from the United States, we're going to come down and tell these Guatemalans who they really are, who their ancestors really are, why their skin is dark and why they're Jews, not, you know, whatever they are, you know, descendants from the Asiatic, you know, from Mongolia through the Bering Strait. And we're going to, you know, we're going to tell them what their identity should be.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] And it's a really weird bizarro kind of thing if you actually don't believe the church is true. But the other two things about Mexico, particularly, that I don't know if we want to just talk about briefly. One is that Mormonism in Mexico is inextricably linked with polygamy because literally by the late 1800s, and. And the church is, you know, being persecuted in the United States, the Mormon Church is being persecuted for practicing polygamy. The Los Colonists that are set up in northern Mexico in, like, Chihuahua. Right. In colonial Juarez, I think it's called. They're literally set up for the United. For the Mormons to be able to keep practicing polygamy, but outside the reach of the United States federal government.

Mormonism's History and Presence in Mexico

John Dehlin [01:58:46] So, like, that's a weird origin for Mormonism in Mexico, that it's, like, to escape the law and to keep the practice of polygamy going. The only other thing I'll say is that. Tell me if I'm wrong, but one of the more inspiring parts of Mexican history is when one of your former leaders sort of told the Catholic Church. Was it Pancho Villa? No.

Moroni Ortiz [01:59:08] Benito Juarez.

John Dehlin [01:59:09] Benito Juarez, sorry, Benito Juarez. What did he tell the Catholic Church? Or what did he do? Tell us that story?

Moroni Ortiz [01:59:15] Yeah. He pretty much split any relationship between the church and state and the Catholic

John Dehlin [01:59:20] Church in the country of Mexico. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [01:59:22] Yeah. And any church at all.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] Right. To basically say what?

Moroni Ortiz [01:59:27] To basically say that we do not depend or we are not linked or tied to whatever church says.

John Dehlin [01:59:34] Any church. Right.

Guest [01:59:35] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:36] Yeah, well.

Guest [01:59:37] And churches have a lot less power in Mexico overall. You know, I think laws Are. And probably the LDS church has some to something to do with it. But back then, you know, when the Mexico City temple was built, it was. The laws were that any religion that built properties in Mexico, the properties were owned by the federal government.

Moroni Ortiz [01:59:59] Yeah, by the government.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] Yes.

Guest [02:00:01] And you know, so it.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] And, and then foreign churches couldn't own property in Mexico.

Moroni Ortiz [02:00:07] No, it was not allowed. So they had to get a presidential amendment in order for the temple to be closed only to people with a recommend.

John Dehlin [02:00:16] Which kind of blows my mind that a Mormon church could still have so much power in a country like Mexico. Given their history of kind of secularizing in kind of really inspirational and courageous ways, you would think that would mute the influence of an American church. But it's. Is it Mexico the second or the third largest populated Mormon countries at least by vice.

Moroni Ortiz [02:00:40] Second after the U.S. yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] Number two. Right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:00:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:43] Yeah. So anyway, I thought. Anything else you want to say about those colonies and polygamy?

Moroni Ortiz [02:00:48] Yeah, I'm going to say that there are two times in history where we have this kind of clash between the Americans and the Mexicans. And the first one, as you mentioned post manifesto, after 1890, they sent people to Chihuahua to start colonizing there and living in polygamy. And they even send President Ivins, who was later second counselor, first council and first presidency for President Heber J. Grant, who was the stake president there. And they give them the. Give him the charge of stealing people, like stealing polygamous families there. So they were. They were telling the Mexican government, no, we're not polygamous, but they were actually polygamous.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] They were lying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the way, so the people don't think this colonial Juarez, Chihuahua thing is like totally outside their own worlds. Mitt Romney's dad, George Romney, as I understand it, was born in Mexico. Was born and raised in. In Chihuahua in the Mormon colonies there.

Moroni Ortiz [02:01:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:01:44] So like, yeah, the guy that was the Republican nominee for president, I think twice, he came from this area of Mexico that we're talking about through his dad. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [02:01:54] My MTC companion was from Las Colonias in Chihuahua.

John Dehlin [02:01:57] Right.

Guest [02:01:58] There was an area authority. Is it?

Moroni Ortiz [02:02:01] Yeah, it was Daniel Johnson. He was the area president when I was in my mission. And he's from las colonies. Yeah, yeah, from the colonies.

John Dehlin [02:02:08] Yeah. So this is an important part of Mormon history that we haven't covered adequately, I think on Mormon stories, really this is one.

Moroni Ortiz [02:02:14] And the other one is related to what you were mentioning about Mexicans trying to be autonomous in their religious freedom. And when the church started Growing in Mexico City. The laws at the time, as Gerardo was mentioning, required that the leadership should be Mexican. I mean, if you were an American religion, you could not have an American being the top or the main leader in Mexico. So they should call a Mexican national. So they took someone from Las Colonias to lead the church at the time. It would be easier. And that's when they started. There was a split in the church in the 1930s. There was a big split, and then they came all together. But then after that, some of that, people remain separated. And as I was mentioning to you earlier today, they are part of the aub, the Apostolic United Brethren, which is

John Dehlin [02:03:06] a polygamous sect of Mormonism. That's big in Utah, but it's also big outside Utah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:03:11] They even have a temple there. I mean, many people doesn't know, but there's AUB Temple near Mexico City, and they have a colony there, Colony industrial, that is called. And that's where they live. And they are polygamous.

John Dehlin [02:03:25] I guess it's also worth mentioning that Utah was once a possession of Mexico, and the United States government fought a war and took Utah away from Mexico. Right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:03:33] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Guest [02:03:35] When Brigham Young arrived to Utah, he was Mexico.

John Dehlin [02:03:39] That's kind of important to Mormon history, right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:03:41] Yeah, that's actually yesterday I was at the Confidence Center. I was getting a tour from two missionaries. And when they were giving us this story in the roof garden, you know that it mimics the exodus from east to west. Like, you have pines on one side and then you have plains on the other side of the roof garden. And they were saying, like, when they came here, they actually came to Mexico. And the sister missionary that was giving the tour was from Mexico. So that's probably the reason why she mentioned. But it was interesting that to that group of people at Conference center, it was mentioned that when they arrived to Utah, they were actually arriving to Mexico.

John Dehlin [02:04:18] Yeah, that's right. Really quickly, a great comment from a viewer on Facebook. Jacqueline Yoshinari writes, secularization in Mexico wasn't only inspirational and courageous. Catholics were actively persecuted in the early 20th century. And then she writes, example, Miguel Pro. And I have no idea who Miguel Pro is. I don't know if you guys know what she's talking about.

Moroni Ortiz [02:04:41] There was a war at the beginning of the 20th century. La Grada, Los Angeles, Cristeros. So there was a clash between different groups there. That's what she's talking about. And it was really close to when the church started growing in Mexico City. And when they have this other conflict with Mexican nationals because they were nominating a branch president to be the mission president in Mexico. And they even sent a letter to Salt Lake, but they didn't get the outcome that they were looking for. So it was really close to all these situations that the country was living.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] Yeah. Okay, so you get married to your amazing wife and you guys are going to live the Mormon Mexican dream, right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:05:22] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] Yeah. So maybe just condense and abbreviate how you get from return missionary, former AP Mary in the temple, how you become bishop, by what age you become bishop?

Moroni Ortiz [02:05:35] 29.

John Dehlin [02:05:36] 29, yes. So you're married at 25 and you become a Mormon bishop by 29.

Guest [02:05:42] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:05:43] And a month before getting married, as we had already bought a house in the same state where I was living, I was called to the high council. So I was ordained a high priest, and I was called to high Council a month before I was getting married. Before getting married.

John Dehlin [02:05:57] Now, that is remarkable by any stretch to be a missionary at age 29. But my understanding is. So what did I say?

Moroni Ortiz [02:06:03] Missionary?

John Dehlin [02:06:05] Yeah. It's remarkable by any stretch to be made a Mormon bishop by age 29. But having said that, maybe there are less worthy priesthood holders in Latin American countries. So on average, when Mormon men are called to be bishops, they're a little bit younger. What would you say, or is that not true?

Moroni Ortiz [02:06:25] I have seen many young bishops being called in Mexico. Actually, when I was younger, they even called people who were like 25, 26. Then they changed that policy and they said that they had to be closer to 30. 30. It would be 30 or more would be ideal, if not 29 or the closest as possible to 30. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:46] Okay. So in your understanding, was 29 pretty young to be called bishop?

Moroni Ortiz [02:06:50] It was young, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] Yeah.

Guest [02:06:53] Like, at least where I'm married at, you don't see that.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] What would you see? What would be the average age in like, 40s. In the 40s.

Guest [02:07:01] 40s.

John Dehlin [02:07:01] Okay. Okay. All right. So 29 young, right? Yeah. Yeah. So five, four years from married to bishop.

Moroni Ortiz [02:07:09] Yeah, that.

The Process of Being Called as Bishop

John Dehlin [02:07:09] So how did you go. So how did you get. How did you get that? Get there so fast?

Moroni Ortiz [02:07:15] I think. Well, what I think is that I was called as a high counselor.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [02:07:19] And by the time I was called a bishop, I was the eldest high councilor in seniority. I was the one who had to spend the most time as a high councilor in the stake. So even though I had left the city for a few months because I accepted a job offer which required me to go for three months to Mexico City. They decided to keep that calling to me. And I was really devout, really. There's another word for saying it when you are really dedicated. Dedicated. I was a really dedicated high counselor. Like, I would do everything they asked. I would try to do my best.

Moroni Ortiz [02:07:55] I would be always taking care. I had two assignments. One was young, single adults, and the other one was a branch in our stake. And I was really, like, I was constantly visiting that branch. I was usually attending meetings in that branch and not in my ward. I would accompany the elders quorum president of the branch to visit some other members. So I think that that dedication and pretty much my commitment to my colleagues, that's what caught the stake president's attention, probably.

Guest [02:08:25] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:08:26] And I have to say something. My stake president was also my college teacher, and we had worked together for a while, for. For a few months. We. Probably for a year or so.

Guest [02:08:36] Maybe we should explain that to people that are not Mormons on donors and how the process of becoming a bishop is. Is that usually there's the stake president. Who's.

John Dehlin [02:08:45] Who's the president? So there's a. Award is a Mormon congregation that usually has, what, two or three hundred people?

Moroni Ortiz [02:08:52] Maybe in Mexico, it's less like a

John Dehlin [02:08:54] hundred, 100, 100 actively attending people.

Guest [02:08:57] 100 is the average.

Moroni Ortiz [02:08:58] 100 is the average each Sunday. If you count by individual people, it's probably 130.

John Dehlin [02:09:04] Okay, so a congregation or award is about 130 people attending weekly. A bishop is the. Is the priest or the pastor for. Or the, you know, for that congregation. And then a stake would be like 8 wards United is kind of as a regional or a diocese in Catholic. You know, in the Catholic Church. So stake president would be over eight wards. And that's how it's organized.

Moroni Ortiz [02:09:32] So that's how.

John Dehlin [02:09:32] So, okay, so keep.

Guest [02:09:33] And the stake president is the one that, you know, when there's a bishop that needs to be replaced after a certain amount of time, then the stake president and his counselors, they get together and try to decide who are we going to recommend to be a bishop? And basically, they decide. They come up with some names, they discuss them, and then when they get the final name, they send it to Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [02:09:57] And by the way, really quick, we were talking over gelato yesterday about a criteria I didn't realize was used to. To vet or to determine the short list of candidates for who gets called as bishop and a stake president. Do you guys want to share that really quick? This is pretty shocking to me.

Guest [02:10:16] I've. I've heard this one Used specifically for state presidents, because for state presidents there's a general authorities, you know, so someone that's way above a stake president who comes in and then they take out the, the, the tithing kind of statistics for, for this whole stake and they go through like, okay, the several, you know, probably several

John Dehlin [02:10:42] criteria criteria.

Guest [02:10:43] And one of them is like who's paying the most tithing? And basically that's the way they are able to filter down who's going to be the next stake president is based on, you know, who's, who's paying quite

Moroni Ortiz [02:10:58] a bit of tithing.

John Dehlin [02:10:58] That's. Yeah, okay.

Moroni Ortiz [02:11:00] And, and, and I know for sure when you're a bishop you have to be a full tithe payer. So that's one of the requirements or one of the things that they're going to look for. Even for counselors when you call them or when you bring that name to the stake presidency, they're going to check that. And for a stake presidency, I was also part of the stake presidency change or reorganization of a stake presidency when I was a high councilor. So what this general authority does is that he comes to the stake and he has to interview, at least he interviews all the bishops, the counselors to the stake presidency and all the high councilors.

Moroni Ortiz [02:11:37] So at that time I was interviewed and my dad at that time was a bishop at the same stake, so he was interviewed for that process too. Something that was really interesting from that, from that process and that interview is that at some point the area authority, the general authority who was interviewing me asked me like, who do you think is going to be called as the next stake president? And I said a name. And then he marked that on. He had a list of all the people that he was going to interview and he marked that. And then in the afternoon after my interview, I was with my parents and my mom said like, kidding, who had the most check marks there to know who's going to be our next stake president?

Moroni Ortiz [02:12:18] Because my dad was asked the same thing and then the name of that person was marked and he ended up being called the next stake president in my state.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] I mean, that strikes me as a way for these general authorities to ask the opinion of who should be called without giving the impression that they're asking for advice or suggestions because it's supposed to be a calling from God. So you don't want to be asking members who do you think should be called, but if you ask them to predict it, then you're getting their recommendation while still creating the impression that it's a calling of God. That's a little bit manipulative, don't you think?

Guest [02:12:56] And it's standard. Like my dad has told me. He's been on many of these interviews of stake reorganizations. And every time the general authority asks him, like what, who, who should be or who do you think is going to be the next state president?

Moroni Ortiz [02:13:09] And then they ask you after that question and after you answer, they ask you what would happen if that person isn't called. And then you just answered, well, I'm going to support anyone who is called

John Dehlin [02:13:20] as loyalty test, basically.

Guest [02:13:21] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:22] Really quickly, there's a couple questions that came in that are important. Mary Cat writes, I just got here. Is this the same bishop from Mexico that we had on before? Voice only? The answer is yes. And the next question, Sally Osling writes, this man is currently a bishop. And so for those you know, we have over a thousand people joining us on the live stream. We're super grateful for the audience, especially because we didn't announce this in advance. We decided to do it live, last like five minutes, 15 minutes before we started. But yes, Moroni Ortiz is a actively currently serving Mormon bishop in a ward in Monterrey, Mexico, Mexico.

John Dehlin [02:14:07] And he is willing to now come out publicly and let the world know that he's not paying tithing, that he doesn't believe the Book of Mormon is historical, that he doesn't believe this is the one true church, but that he still finds value and goodness in Mormonism and that he doesn't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet in the sense that most orthodox Mormons believe he was. He's willing to state this publicly. He's had conversations with the stake president and he feels like it's important to be able to speak openly about this, at least in part so that so many people don't feel alone and crazy and like they're broken, but also because he believes in honesty and in courage.

John Dehlin [02:14:49] And so he'll be leading a ward conference this Sunday as the bishop of his ward. And he's also willing to come out to the world as a currently sitting bishop to say how he feels. So I'm just recapping for those who are joining us, two hours in.

Moroni Ortiz [02:15:08] Thank you. Thank you, John. And yes, we'll see what happens on Sunday.

Guest [02:15:12] I wanted to finish John saying this part about how the bishop is called so the stake president, see, decide what name they're going to recommend to Salt Lake and then send it to Salt Lake and the first presidency. I mean, this is supposedly what happens, is the first Presidency, you know, the prophet and his two counselors, Russell M. Nelson, Eyring and Oakes, they get together, they review the name, they probably check the background, you know, of whatever notes there is on the record, and then they pray about it. They receive revelation directly from God and then they approve or disapprove the name. And then they send a letter back to the stake presidency and say, okay, yeah, this person can be the bishop or not.

John Dehlin [02:15:58] Interesting. Fascinating. Yeah. I have somebody who wrote in a comment basically saying you're lying. John de Lynn. Like, I know a poor stake president and I don't think we're making the claim that that's the only criteria, but I think we're making the claim that that's one important criteria.

Moroni Ortiz [02:16:15] Right, right. It is considered. I mean, put yourself in the, in the position of a general authority who comes to a stake. He doesn't know the members, he doesn't have any background on who they are. And they have to pick one person to be the stake presidency in the stake president in that specific weekend. So of course they're going to check that. I mean, that's obvious because you need, from my perspective, you need an indicator. And again, this is probably because of my profession, because I work with numbers and all of that.

Moroni Ortiz [02:16:47] You need one variable or one indicator that you can measure. And what are you going to measure? What is the most measurable indicator that you have is if the member is a full time payer and also the amount of money that they pay. And that's important because you need someone who has the resources. So that person might not be rich, but at least has to have a car, at least has to have enough flexibility at work to attend their church responsibilities. So that makes sense. I mean, it wouldn't make sense to call someone who is not into a position to serve in that calling. And you have just a few variables to decide.

John Dehlin [02:17:26] Yeah, it's a way to show commitment to the church. It's a way to show obedience. It's a way to show power and influence. It shows probably on some level your, your ability to navigate the world successfully, maybe to manage people. Like the more wealthy you are likely, you know, the better manager you're likely to be on average, I'm guessing definitely it's not a horrible metric, honestly.

Moroni Ortiz [02:17:52] Exactly. So. And, and for example, I know many stake presidents who, I know they are not the richest person in their stake, but probably the ones who are wealthier do not pay tithing or do not pay a full tithe.

John Dehlin [02:18:03] That's true. That's True.

Moroni Ortiz [02:18:04] That's true. That could happen too.

John Dehlin [02:18:05] Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Okay, so, all right, so you are married for about four years with how many kids when you are. Are called to be bishop?

Moroni Ortiz [02:18:18] One kid who was two years old and another one coming.

John Dehlin [02:18:22] Okay, and when you were. When you were called to be bishop, how did your wife feel about that?

Moroni Ortiz [02:18:30] I remember that I started having some hints that I might get called as a bishop. First of all, because one day my stake president started asking about my work, but more detailed questions like, what company do you work for and what's your position? And I let it go. I didn't think anything at the time. But then he mentioned that he wanted to visit me and my wife at home. And that's when I started getting suspicious. Like, okay. He asked me details about my work. I know that they have to fill in a form to send to Salt Lake City. So maybe he was. I've been in the high council for more than four years now.

Moroni Ortiz [02:19:06] I am the most senior high councilor in the stake. So I started adding two plus two. And I said, maybe I'm gonna be called as a bishop. So a couple of weeks before the stake president extended the calling, I was talking to my wife and I told her what would happen if I am called as a bishop. And her answer was like, I don't think you're gonna be called as a bishop. You're super young. And in reward, we have really good members who are older than you and more experienced. So I think you're going to be called as a bishop. But later, not now, maybe when you're 40.

Moroni Ortiz [02:19:37] And I was like, yeah, well, you're right. Maybe I'm just like playing mind games, you know, like, maybe I'm just guessing wrong, but that's not what happened. So when they extended the call, I mean, at that time, we were like super righteous, devout Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:19:58] So what would you. What would your testimony have been? Just bullet points in the literal truth claims of the church. What would your testimony have been when you were called as a bishop just a few years ago?

Moroni Ortiz [02:20:08] That's a really good question. So the experiences that build my testimony were that. Gordon McHinkley, the experience that I had when I was a kid, then seminary classes, mostly the DNC seminary course. And the Pearl of great price, as I mentioned, for me, the book of Moses and the book of Abraham were really important pillars in my testimony. Then knowing that Thomas S. Monson was a prophet, like, having that, again, that same feeling when I heard him talking in Mexico City. And, well, the Book of Abraham. The Book of Abraham. Yeah, we should not forget that. And that was really, really important.

Moroni Ortiz [02:20:50] And, well, some other spiritual experiences that I have had in my life and while serving in different callings or even in my mission. So those were the ones that built my testimony. So I have to make a parenthesis here before actually telling you how I was called as a bishop, because probably six to eight months before I was called as a bishop, I heard about Jeremy Reynolds. I remember I was scrolling on Facebook and I found a post regarding Jeremy Runnels excommunication.

Pre-Bishop Exposure to Critical Church History

John Dehlin [02:21:20] And for those who don't know, Jeremy Runnels is the author of a website and a book and a PDF called Letter to a CES Director. He came out with this, I believe, around 2015. 2014. 2015. And it's basically just how he learned about problems with the Mormon Church's truth claims and how he tried to go to church leaders to get answers and couldn't get any answers. And talks about Joseph Smith and his polygamy in the Book of Mormon and problems with the Book of Mormon, problems of the Book of Abraham, problems with Joseph Smith and his treasure digging and the Mormon Church truth claims. You can go to csletter.org to read about it, but it's been instrumental in probably hundreds of thousands of Mormons learning the truth about their history and then deciding what to do with it once they learn.

John Dehlin [02:22:06] So you learned about Jeremy Reynolds and the CEO, and he was ultimately threatened with excommunication. And during his excommunication trial, he resigned before the church could excommunicate him. But like me, he would have been excommunicated if he had allowed them to. But you're Learning about the CES letter. What year?

Moroni Ortiz [02:22:23] Approximately 2018.

John Dehlin [02:22:25] Before you were called as a bishop.

Moroni Ortiz [02:22:27] Before I was called as a bishop.

John Dehlin [02:22:28] Okay, so this is about five years ago, 2018. You learned about the CES letter?

Moroni Ortiz [02:22:31] Yeah, I learned about the CES letter. I learned first about Jeremy Reynolds. I didn't know who he was because that post was about Jeremy Reynolds, not about the CES letter. So it was when the disciplinary council was going to be held, and I started reading about him. And then I Googled Jeremy Runnells and I found the CS letter. And then I said, like, up to that point, John, I have always found an answer to any question that I had regarding church history, regarding doctrine. I really liked studying church doctrine. I was the kind of people who read Mormon doctrine. It was like a dictionary for me.

Moroni Ortiz [02:23:06] So whenever I had A question. I would go to Mormon doctrine or doctrines of Salvation. Doctrines of salvation, yeah. All the McConkey, Fielding Smith suit. I was a huge fan of that. And those were the kind of books that I would go to whenever I had a question. So having this context of reading a lot of McConkie and for example, when I heard about second anointing, which is something that we're going to cover later, I read one of the first documents that I read was a talk by Bruce R. McConkey, who gave at BYU, talking about making your calling an election. Sure. So that's the kind of person that I was.

Moroni Ortiz [02:23:46] So when I read that he had questions and he didn't find answers to those questions, I was like, that is not possible. That is not possible. And then I started reading the CS letter with the intent of getting the answers, Prove it wrong and getting answers. And I even said, like, I can contact this guy Facebook and help you with his questions. Yeah, absolutely. And I was like, I have a testimony, I'm pretty sure on what's going on. And. And that. And little did I know what I was gonna find there. And I have already. By that time I had already read some of the gospel topic essays.

Moroni Ortiz [02:24:28] So I was aware of some things like the stones and the hat. And I was like, then it was not an anti Mormon lie. Right. Because what that comic book said is actually something true. It's just that it's not the way that the church was teaching at that moment. And I remember that in 2017, there was CS face to face. It was a face to face with Elder Oaks and Elder Ballard and they mentioned there that they are not lying or trying to hide truths from us. It's just that they are finding out, just as we are finding out, that

John Dehlin [02:24:57] they're as honest as they know how to be. Wasn't that the question?

Moroni Ortiz [02:25:00] Yeah, that's.

Guest [02:25:00] They've never tried to hide anything from anybody.

John Dehlin [02:25:03] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:25:03] So my wife and I were watching that face to face devotional live and we were like, ah, God, they are right. See, like, because we have already known some people who were doubting, some even family members who had questions. And we're like, see, they are doing the best that they can and they are honest and we have to trust them.

Guest [02:25:23] Yeah. He says, just trust us.

Moroni Ortiz [02:25:25] And I trusted them really quickly.

John Dehlin [02:25:28] You mentioned in your outline a story about learning about Joseph Smith, the Comoros island captain kid in elementary school, and you wanted to make sure you told that story.

Moroni Ortiz [02:25:39] Absolutely. So that was part of the CS letter, because one of the first pages of CS letter, it talks about Captain Kidd. That's Captain Kidd, right? That's the name of the. Those are pirate stories that were really common in the 19th century. So Joseph Smith had access to those stories and they mentioned certain places in Africa. And one of those places that they mentioned is an island that is called Comoros. That's. That's how it's pronounced in English, right? Comoros?

John Dehlin [02:26:09] Yeah, I think so.

Moroni Ortiz [02:26:10] Well, it doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:26:12] And. Well, when I was in elementary school, probably fourth or fifth grade, we were in geography class and remember that my name is Moroni or Moroni. So we were in geography class, we were learning the capitals of the world, and then one of my friends started shouting, hey, look, this city is named Moroni just like you. And I was like, what are you talking about? And then I see that is this city in Africa in a remote island called the Comoras. And then I was like. The first thing that came to my mind in that moment was Joseph Smith. Like, well, that's from the Book of Mormon. What a coincidence, right?

Guest [02:26:47] Maybe it was named after Joseph. After Book of Mormon.

Moroni Ortiz [02:26:49] Yeah. It was like, I didn't think that was possible, but then I think, like, well, he lived in the US in the 19th century. He was an illiterate boy, so he couldn't have known about that city in Africa. So it's just a coincidence.

John Dehlin [02:27:04] And for those who've never been Mormon, the actual history that Joseph Smith tells is that he went to a hill called Cumorah near his home in upstate New York, and ultimately was visited by an angel named Moroni. So this combination of a hill named Cumorah or sounds a lot like Cumorus with an island, with a city or a capital named Moroni is a really striking coincidence. And you add to that the fact that Joseph Smith is known to have read Captain Kidd's stories and have been fascinated with treasure digging and pirate lore, all of a sudden you start to think, wait a minute, was Joseph making this up? You know, that's a reasonable question to ask, right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:27:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:48] He was basically drawing from names and characters and figures and geographies in his childhood and then creating the story of Mormonism from his childhood. Fiction, fictional readings, right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:28:02] Yep. Yeah, definitely. And that. That was the linking matching point that was missing. Right. Because then I, when I read the CF letter on that part where they explained that, then I was like, oh, my, then he did have access to that information. Then it might be possible. I am not doubting at this point, but there's an explanation There's a plausible explanation on how he got that information. And even the word game. Right. Because it's Hill Cumorah and that country's Comoros and then the Angelus moron. Just what you mentioned is like that same game word which I missed at the time because I knew that the country was Comoros in Spanish, but I didn't link that to Hill Cumorah. And the spelling and the pronunciation is quite similar. So at that moment it was like something. It was a light bulb. A light bulb?

Guest [02:28:55] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:28:55] In my mind it was like what's

John Dehlin [02:28:57] going on in your outline before the point where you're called as bishop, you're not only mentioning these items, you're mentioning view of the Hebrews, Quetzalcoatl, the Trinitarian view of God, treasure digging, the first vision accounts, and even the book of Abraham and questions about it.

Moroni Ortiz [02:29:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:16] Before you're called as a bishop, before I'm called, do you want to talk about.

Moroni Ortiz [02:29:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:29:19] How those play into your pre bishop call? Because you just said when you were called as a bishop, you still had an orthodox literalistic testimony. Yeah. So where do these questions or issues come in?

Moroni Ortiz [02:29:31] That's a really good question. So what happened is that. But after reading the CS letter and after researching a bit more, I started finding out things and some questions that I already had. For example, in second Nephi. No, it is one Nephi, I guess, when it tells about the born of Jesus and how he was going to be born of a virgin, then there are some verses there where it seems as if God the Father is Jesus Christ. Just like that same trinitarian view. And I had some questions regarding that in the past, like how if the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth and if it was translated by the power of God. And from my understanding, Joseph could not continue translating or move forward before that passage was correctly translated and written down,

John Dehlin [02:30:22] that the word for the translation would magically appear on the stone. Joseph would write it down, read it. No, he would. He would read it to the scribe, the scribe would write it down, the scribe would repeat it back to Joseph and then the stone would continue.

Moroni Ortiz [02:30:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:30:39] So that it the way that we're told, the translation process happened with the stone in the hat. Once we're told that the translation happened with the stone in the hat leaves no room for error. Exactly right.

Moroni Ortiz [02:30:51] Yep, that's correct.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] And yet there are thousands and tens of thousands of errors.

Moroni Ortiz [02:30:55] Yep. And that's what I found out. So you mentioned a few things there.

John Dehlin [02:31:00] You mentioned I can Go one by one. So View of the Hebrews.

Moroni Ortiz [02:31:03] View of the Hebrews.

John Dehlin [02:31:04] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:31:05] So when I started reading the CS letter, I said like, I'm not just going to read this document from who knows who wrote it. I just have to research all the resources that he's mentioning. And one of those was View of the Hebrews. So I, I started researching about Ethan Smith, about those ideas that were prevalent in the 19th century that the ancient Americans were coming from the lost tribes of Israel. I then downloaded View of the Hebrews on PDF and started reading the book. Super boring. I do not recommend that reading.

John Dehlin [02:31:37] That's awful.

Moroni Ortiz [02:31:38] But I read that and I think I have a pretty good idea on what it is about. I probably read like fast, but I read all the book, like from top to bottom or whatever. So I read it all and I started like matching some of the ideas of the Hebrews. And what I understood from that was that we cannot prove that Joseph Smith had a copy of View of the Hebrews. We cannot prove that he actually inspired On View of the Hebrews. But what we can prove from that is that there were many other people thinking the same things that he's saying and stating in the Book of Mormon regarding the ancient Americans and how they come from.

Moroni Ortiz [02:32:18] There's a difference because in view of the Hebrews, they are coming from the lost tribes and in the Book of Mormon they are the family of Lehi who is coming from the Jews. So that's a bit of a difference there. But even in view of the Hebrews, it mentions Quetzalcoatl and Ethan Smith says that Quetzalcoatl could be Jesus Christ. And that was another point. Remember that story about my mom?

Moroni Ortiz [02:32:41] She said that Jesus Christ was Quetzalcoatl and all that. Then I was like, oh, well then, then that was not an idea of Joseph Smith or from my mom. It came from other people in the 19th century. So that was, that was View of the Hebrews. I don't know if there's any other

John Dehlin [02:32:55] point, but the View of the Hebrews parallels, which again was a book. Well, I mean, Oliver Cowdery's pastor wrote View of the Hebrews before Oliver Cowdery comes down and becomes Joseph Smith's scribe. We've done episodes on Mormon stories about the, the Dartmouth Arminianism and including Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith and all Hyrum Smith, all the different people that were influenced by the mound builder myth that then appears in 1015 books prior to the Book of Mormon that then end up in the Book of Mormon, this idea of a righteous and an unrighteous, you know, Native American tribes and the unrighteous tribe kills off the righteous tribes and that somehow they're all connected to the Israelites. That was, that was a common belief. Yeah, so that's what we're referring to. But none of that phase your testimony at the time.

Moroni Ortiz [02:33:51] Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get to that.

John Dehlin [02:33:53] Keep going.

Moroni Ortiz [02:33:53] So what's the next point?

John Dehlin [02:33:54] Okay, the next one is you said trinitarian view of God in 1830. Book of Mormon. You address that. Okay, then treasure digging. Joseph Smith's treasure digging.

Moroni Ortiz [02:34:03] I found that disturbing because I have heard that he was a treasure digger, but I was told that it was a lie, that he wasn't really a treasure digger, that it was like a myth and that some like people who were trying to fight against him just made that up. So that's the view that I had on treasure digging. And after investigating a little bit more on treasure digging and after, probably not in that moment in my life, but later I read Roughton Rolling. So I found out that he was actually a treasure digger. And the way Richard Bushman says this is that he was being prepared to being a prophet by practicing treasure digging with those stones.

Moroni Ortiz [02:34:43] But that's weird. I mean, because first of all, he never found any treasure at all. And second, he used the same rocks that he used to translate for those treasure digging endeavors. Endeavors. So even one of the rocks, the one that is like was in the, and the one that is in some church publications, he found that rock when he was digging for a treasure at someone of his associates houses or properties. So that rock which would reveal things came from that treasure digging experience.

John Dehlin [02:35:20] He also admitted to his father in law, Emma's dad, that he was making up the treasure digging and he wasn't. He never really saw anything in the stone. So why would he use a stone that he used to perpetuate fraud? Why would he use that same stone to produce the Book of Mormon? That doesn't make any sense. Anyway.

Moroni Ortiz [02:35:39] Definitely. And another question that I had was then why did, did he need the golden plates? Why all that hassle of getting the golden plates and having to wait for the golden plates and then translating them and risking his life to get those golden plates because that's how history is told.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] If they weren't even in the room when he translated, translated in air quotes,

Moroni Ortiz [02:36:01] the Book of Mormon because nobody really saw the golden plates. And some of the testimonies that we have about the golden plates is Emma for example, Saying that they were on the table in a cloth and that he could feel them, like just pass the hand on top of the golden plates. But she never saw those. And they were, as you mentioned, sometimes the golden plates were hidden in the forest and they were translating at home. So that didn't make much sense. And I remember I had read just a filling Smith quote where he said that he didn't think that Joseph would use the stones to translate because then what would be the use of the golden plates? I mean, why would you need some golden plates if you didn't need that to translate?

John Dehlin [02:36:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These are problems. And Joseph Ealing Smith was an eventual prophet for the church. So, I mean, he's not a minor authority. Okay, so you learned about that and then first vision, multiple accounts.

Moroni Ortiz [02:37:02] Yep, I learned about the first mission multiple accounts from God's army, the movie. Okay, there's a missionary who is having questions. And then he mentioned, like, did you know that there are many first mission accounts, that they contradict each other? And then the.

John Dehlin [02:37:16] Joseph Smith's story grew. The more times he told it, it got more fantastical about his claim to have seen God in Jesus.

Moroni Ortiz [02:37:24] Yeah. And then the main character there, Elder Dalton, says, like, well, yeah, but. But they were intended for different audiences and stuff like that. And he gives an apologetic explanation about the different accounts of the first vision. So I already knew about that and I was really young when I saw God's army, so I didn't pay much attention to that. But then again, I started researching more on that and I found that there were some major differences between one account and the other. Mostly the 1832 account, which is the one, the only one that was actually written by Joseph smith, and the 1838 account, which is the one that has been canonized and correlated in church instruction.

Moroni Ortiz [02:38:04] So one of the first. One of the main points there is that in the 1832 account, he mentions that he saw one person. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but he mentions one personage, the Lord. The Lord.

John Dehlin [02:38:19] He said the Lord visited him, not God and Jesus.

Moroni Ortiz [02:38:22] And he says that he was 17. So that would put the first vision, like three years later to when we actually think it happened.

Guest [02:38:30] And that gets too close to the Moroni time. And like, what happened to that time frame of seeing God and Jesus and then being a rebel, the Moroni coming to set you straight. But if God and Jesus visited you so close to Moroni, how, like, it just. The story stops making sense once you start messing with the timeline.

Moroni Ortiz [02:38:50] Exactly. You mess with the timeline, and then that doesn't add up. And that 1832 account was important because remember that I had already noticed that in the Book of Mormon there were some verses where it seems like. It seems to have a trinitarian view of God. And then I said, like, well, then if he saw one person, which was the Lord, then that would make sense. That it makes sense on why he wrote in the Book of Mormon or dictated that the Lord and God, the Father and Jesus Christ is a bit ambiguous.

John Dehlin [02:39:23] Are all one. Because the Book of Mormon originally said, I, my father are one. You know, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one.

Guest [02:39:30] I think the introduction of the Book of Mormon still says. Which is supposed to be. Supposed to be a translation.

Moroni Ortiz [02:39:37] Yeah. It mentions that they are one God.

Guest [02:39:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:40] And it mentioned that Mary is the mother of God. Right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:39:42] Yeah. It mentions the marriage of God, the mother of God.

John Dehlin [02:39:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon, he believed that God and Jesus were one.

Moroni Ortiz [02:39:49] And then they were more chapters and verses that had that same idea, that shared that same idea, but those were edited in later editions of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:40:00] Right.

Moroni Ortiz [02:40:00] So that's the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:40:03] As Joseph Smith's view of God and Jesus changed to develop, you know, the Godhead, they literally changed the Book of Mormon to reflect Joseph Smith's changing view of the Godhead.

Moroni Ortiz [02:40:15] And it is not the only change. Or there are other questions that I had from my mission and from seminary. For example, when Alma, the father of Alma, Alma, the senior Alma, when he is one of King Noah's priests, and then Abinadi comes and preaches, and then he converts, and then he goes out of the city, and then he starts baptizing people. And then you say, like, well, where was the priesthood? When was he ordained? And then what I was explaining at

John Dehlin [02:40:45] the time, where did Alma get his authority? Right, yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:40:47] Where did he get that authority to baptize? If Noah was a wicked king, then if he was a priest for that wicked king, then that was not the right authority. It would be as if some other religious leader comes to our church and tries to baptize someone. Someone because they have to be ordained first in order to get that authority. So that was a question that I had since I was a teenager. And what I was explaining at the time is that, well, Alma was obviously ordained a priest before King Noah became a wicked king. So that's the reason why he already had the authority.

Moroni Ortiz [02:41:23] That's why he didn't need to get baptized. He didn't need to get ordained before baptizing people. But it is also interesting that when he performs the first baptism, he throws himself into the water along with the person that he's baptizing. And then the next one he's just baptizing the rest of.

John Dehlin [02:41:40] As if that was his baptism too. Right. His first baptism. And nobody stops to wonder why they're baptizing, why they're performing Christian baptisms before Jesus is even born. Like that. That didn't. As missionaries, we never stopped to ask that question. Even Jews weren't baptizing in the name of Jesus. And they are the actual authentic Jews, right?

Guest [02:41:59] Yeah. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [02:42:02] No, no. In Mexico, in Latin America makes even less sense.

Moroni Ortiz [02:42:08] I did have an explanation for all

Guest [02:42:10] that because I think he wrote, well, man Conkey said baptisms existed before Jesus. Even on the Old Testament, they just. It was stripping off.

John Dehlin [02:42:20] But he's just making that up. Yeah, he's just making that up.

Moroni Ortiz [02:42:24] That is a really good question. I have made that question before when I was younger, but I had an answer for that. So, remember, up to that point, I had an answer for every question that I have had regarding the church.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] You did say Book of Abraham questions important. So we want to make sure we cover that before.

Moroni Ortiz [02:42:41] Absolutely. So as part of reading and researching on the CS letter, I found out that, well, I think I already knew or I have heard that the church had possession of the. The papyri. But then I found out more detail and I started researching more about that, and I think I even found some videos of Robert Rittner talking about the Book of Abraham. And I understood that at the time Joseph Smith found those papers, people was not really able to translate geroglyphics to English or to any other language until they found the Rosetta Stone, which was pretty much at the same time. But the Rosetta Stone was a really new discovery.

John Dehlin [02:43:23] It wasn't deciphered yet.

Moroni Ortiz [02:43:24] It wasn't deciphered yet. And then when the Rosetta Stone was deciphered and they could translate to Greek and then to English and to another language, then you could actually read those hieroglyphics and actually know what they are saying. So I learned about that. And that was probably the biggest item on my shelf, the one that started breaking my shelf. Because the Book of Abraham for me was really important from my perspective. It was like a testimony that God had revealed many, many important truths to people since Abraham's time. And it was written by the hand of Abraham. And Now I read and I understand that

Moroni Ortiz [02:44:04] it was not written by Abraham, that it doesn't even mention Abraham, and that Joseph Smith even had an Alphabet to translate that then that is a complete mismatch between what the hieroglyphs says and what Joseph Smith was trying to do. So that was a big item on my shelf. And that's probably the one that made me start questioning more.

John Dehlin [02:44:28] How did you even make it to bishop after learning all that stuff? Why didn't that all just take you out faith wise and just I'm out of the church?

Moroni Ortiz [02:44:36] Because when you are a faithful Mormon, you cling to your spiritual experiences. So I tried to do that. I was like, well, this information might be disturbing, but I have a testimony by the time. I haven't had that. I never had that experience of knowing that President Nelson was a prophet. Sorry, President Nelson, I didn't have that as I had with President Monson and Hinckley.

Guest [02:45:01] He did get a testimony of you being the bishop though.

Moroni Ortiz [02:45:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:05] Because bishops are approved by the Church First Presidency.

Moroni Ortiz [02:45:08] That's true. That.

John Dehlin [02:45:10] Yeah. So everyone watching who's like, wait a minute, number one, how does a Mormon bishop lose his testimony? But second of all, how did he even get there? The Mormon Church prophet and first presidency called Moroni as bishop, signed the letter that approved his calling.

Moroni Ortiz [02:45:26] True, true.

John Dehlin [02:45:27] Yeah. So that's not, that's not quite what it means to be a prophet. Right.

Guest [02:45:31] Yeah, we'll see. Maybe it's meant to be.

John Dehlin [02:45:35] That is right. So maybe you won't be released. Okay, keep going.

Moroni Ortiz [02:45:38] I had so many questions at this point. I was questioning my fate. I was questioning church truthfulness. And I didn't say that to anybody because I was worried on other people's reaction. I didn't talk to my parents or my wife or anybody at that point. I kept it personal.

Moroni Ortiz [02:45:57] So what I started doing is what I knew how to do best. Read my scriptures, pray a lot, fast a lot, go to the temple, the temple, temple attendance, trying to do and to like to do everything that is required like family, home, evening, like studying, come follow me. Every week with my family, praying every night, praying every morning, praying at all times and asking, really asking God for an answer, like heavenly Father, please let me know what should I do. I mean, like, I'm confused, I'm concerned. I have a testimony, but still I have these questions and doubts. So what should I do now?

Moroni Ortiz [02:46:39] And it was in this process again. I was still attending church. I was still doing everything related to my calling. I was responsible. I was a Devout member. And that's when my stake president came. I was in this process of trying to find an answer, trying to get an answer from God. And then one day my stake president called and says, can I go to your house to meet you and your wife? And then he comes and he extends that calling. And I remember I told him in that interview I was not as open as I am now, but I mentioned him that I had some questions and doubts and that I thought that this calling was my answer, the answer to those prayers.

Moroni Ortiz [02:47:23] So at that point, I accepted the calling. I said, like, well, what other answer do I want if I'm being called as a bishop and if I have been, like, approved by the First Presidency and all that? So I stopped researching. I focused on my calling. It was exhausting. I was interviewed to be called as a bishop about a month before my daughter was born.

Moroni Ortiz [02:47:48] So my stake president said, like, go have your daughter. And after your daughter is born, we called you as a bishop. We still have time and start thinking on your counselors and all that. And that's why I know that they look into the tithings, because I passed some names who were not paying full tithe. And he told me, like, well, these two or three brothers are not paying a full tithe, so just think on other names. And actually, that's. That's interesting, because I passed the names that I wanted to be my counselors, and he asked me for more names, and that's when I selected more, and they ended up selecting the ones that I passed the first time.

Moroni Ortiz [02:48:24] Yeah. That I have previously shared. So. Yeah. But I was called. So I stopped researching. I. For. Sorry, I forgot about. Is the microphone.

John Dehlin [02:48:33] That's fine.

Moroni Ortiz [02:48:33] I forgot about the CS letter and everything.

John Dehlin [02:48:36] I mean, in the Book of War musical, there's a song called Turn It Off. You basically turned it off. Right. You turned off all the doubts and questions and just said, I'm in. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [02:48:45] Just as I have done other times in my life, like in my mission, after I read the Bible, I was like, this doesn't matter. I just gonna. I'm just gonna continue serving.

John Dehlin [02:48:54] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:48:54] And I turned that off for two years. And many, many things happened within those two years.

Guest [02:48:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:59] Yeah. Okay. So you are called as a Mormon Bishop, what, four years ago?

Cracks in Faith While Serving as Bishop

Moroni Ortiz [02:49:05] Yeah. 2019.

John Dehlin [02:49:06] 2019.

Moroni Ortiz [02:49:07] May 2019.

John Dehlin [02:49:08] And I'm sure. Were there parts about it that you loved? Before we talk about the cracks that started developing, do you want to speak briefly about the parts of being a Mormon bishop that you've loved that you really Enjoyed.

Moroni Ortiz [02:49:22] Yeah. So being a bishop is challenging, is difficult. I mean, I could handle all the administrative and all the programs and all that, all the meetings that you have to have, but then you start having to handling some other stuff that is more personal to the people that you are serving. Something that I liked a lot was having that connection and still having that connection with church members. And I have. Whenever a church member comes and tells me something that is happening in their lives or probably confessing sins or whatever, the first thing that I do is that I thank them for the confidence and the trust that they are putting in me.

Moroni Ortiz [02:50:01] So I like that connection and getting to know members on a more personal way. I was really concerned when I was called as a bishop because I had lived in that ward for four years, but I haven't really attended that ward because I was in the high Council and I was usually visiting other wards or branches. So I was worried that, well, there are members that I don't even know by name. So how am I going to be their bishop if they don't even know me? They have probably seen me sometimes, but they probably think I am not active in the church because I don't attend that often.

Moroni Ortiz [02:50:33] And I had those questions. So one of the things that I have loved the most was that connection with church members, the youth. Also, like, we have amazing youth in our ward. They are really, really good kids. And I have been able to see some of them since they were 12 years old until they are now 17 years old. So they were deacons and they were in primary and now they are priests. And see how they develop and how something that I love and that I still carry and appreciate a lot about the church, even after I found many, many things that don't make sense to me is the community and the support that you have from church members.

Moroni Ortiz [02:51:16] So that's something that for me is great. I mean, seeing those kids being raised as members and having friendships and pretty much having some additional support other than their family or their close family. Some other things that I have enjoyed is when some people come with concerns which are not related to scenes or to spiritual being, but sometimes they come with everyday troubles or temporal problems or they have an issue at work.

John Dehlin [02:51:43] Sorry, marital. Marital.

Moroni Ortiz [02:51:44] Marital problems too? Yeah, we. We have some of those.

John Dehlin [02:51:47] Or work.

Moroni Ortiz [02:51:48] Or work problems and sometimes getting to helping them, finding the answer. Because I'm not the kind of bishop who tells them what they need to do. I listen to them, I ask questions, and then I try to guide them to find the right answer. The One that fits better for them. That's something that I liked a lot. Other than that, it is a lot of work. There are many hours that you have to put into being a bishop. There are many programs that you have to to carry on. There are many sacrifices on time for your family that you have to make. And at that time, I started also questioning all that the church was asking us to do.

Moroni Ortiz [02:52:30] And I used to joke with my wife that together she and I were the perfect church member because she was doing the things that I wasn't able to do. For example, she was really into family history. I was not that into family history. I was more stood in my scriptures and she was the one reminding us to have family home evening each week and all that. But I started, since I got married and we had to work, both of us, I started feeling a lot of pressure on everything that we had to do. And many times I even questioned like, maybe this is designed so that you are not able to fulfill everything that you are supposed to do.

Moroni Ortiz [02:53:08] And then you just feel guilty for that and then you just have to come back because you're feeling guilty because you are not good enough. And that's something that I was feeling. And again, that scrupulosity, I think it was there because some Sundays, if our church attendance was low, I would think, like, maybe I did something wrong this week. Maybe I had an argument with my wife. Maybe I didn't pray too much this week. Maybe my prayers were not as faithful. Maybe it's been more than a month since last time I attended the temple. So I started trying to blame that on me. Like maybe I am not having the same attendance as a month ago because it's something related to me.

Guest [02:53:51] Yeah, that point is really interesting. I think Luna Lindsey Corp has talked about that, right. That the list is infinite of the things that Mormons are supposed to do. And it's almost like designed to make it so, like, it's impossible to fulfill everything that you need to do.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] No one could possibly obey all the commandments and do everything the church asks. And this goes back along with sexual shame. I want to say certain interpretations of Christianity and certainly orthodox Mormonism need you to feel inadequate and broken because they need you to need Jesus and a savior, because that's baked into Mormon theology. But also, maybe even more importantly, they need you to need the church. Because if you're not feeling inadequate, feeling broken, and feeling like you need the church to make it all better, then you don't need the church. Right, Exactly. So nobody, whether you're sinning, then you're clearly needing the church and you're unworthy. But even if you're hyper religious, you're just never doing it enough. Doing enough.

Moroni Ortiz [02:54:59] And either way, the outcome is the same. You end up feeling, like, inadequate. Like you are not.

John Dehlin [02:55:06] Guilt and shame.

Moroni Ortiz [02:55:07] Yep. Guilt and shame.

John Dehlin [02:55:07] Yeah. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [02:55:08] And so what I did at the time is like, okay, I'm gonna have a monthly schedule because I don't have to do everything every day, so I'm gonna make, like, monthly cuts and. And then I'm gonna evaluate how I did with my month. And every month I was short on something, so I was missing something. Yeah, yeah. So.

Moroni Ortiz [02:55:26] And plus being a bishop, plus not spending too much time at home, that started, like, affecting my wife. She didn't say anything at the time, but she started questioning also, like, how is the church teaching so much about family and eternal families? And my husband cannot even be here when the kid is awake. Or my. I didn't know at the time, but my oldest kid would cry when I went to church for any meeting or. Or church activity. And for example, for youth weekly activities, I would leave, and he would stay there crying because I have left, right. And I was not playing with him or whatever.

Moroni Ortiz [02:56:04] I would play for 15, 20 minutes, and then I left, and then he would be there crying. And that was something that was affecting my wife. She didn't say anything. She didn't complain at the moment. But later she mentioned that because at

John Dehlin [02:56:18] first she was super faithful and probably excited because it is kind of validating as a young couple to have the husband called his bishop. It's kind of like the church and God, like you said, saying, well, your family is doing a good job. Right?

Moroni Ortiz [02:56:32] Yes. Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:56:34] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [02:56:35] So that was. It was like that for a few months until the global pandemic came, the COVID pandemic. And that changed a lot of things.

John Dehlin [02:56:44] Okay, how so?

Moroni Ortiz [02:56:46] So for a bishop, first of all, the first thing is that I was. One day at the office, I was working, and all of a sudden I started getting messages, messages from different people. Like, I've heard that temples are closed and that we're not going to have church services next Sunday. And then I started looking for news and the church newsroom and asking my stake president. And then I confirmed, yes, this next Sunday, we're not going to have a sacrament meeting, attendance. And that had already happened in Mexico in 2009. I don't know if you remember, Gerardo, when the. At one.

Moroni Ortiz [02:57:19] The. The flu. We had a flu problem in Mexico in 2009. And for a couple of weeks we were not attending church or we were attending, I think, sacrament meeting, but no ties and wearing masks and just sacrament meeting for a few weeks. So I thought, well, it's going to be the same. It's going to be like two, three weeks, and then everyone's going to go back to normal. Well, that didn't happen.

John Dehlin [02:57:41] Right.

Moroni Ortiz [02:57:43] So many things started changing because you were trying to take care of yourself and also not putting other people at risk. So we were at home and we started planning. First we planned on just getting sacraments to certain people who didn't have priesthood at home. So there was like a role and some assignments for that. We didn't have an actual sacrament meeting for a few Sundays. And then when I realized that that that was going to be for a long time, for a long period, I spoke with my stake president and said, like, we can have like a devotional probably we can use Zoom or some other app or platform to have some kind of meeting.

Moroni Ortiz [02:58:24] And we started doing that. And then an outline came that we should start having virtual sacrament meetings. So everything changed a lot. And I think it was a relief for us because I was at home all day. I had enough time to be with my family, with my kids, and I was also able to do everything that I was supposed to do, like to do interviews virtually, to have world Council meetings virtually, to have any other meeting and church meeting virtually. And we would even have, like, mutual, what used to be mutual weekly youth activities, virtual activities. So it was fun, it was good, it was different.

Moroni Ortiz [02:59:02] At that time, I even felt like maybe I was called as a bishop as a young bishop because I am more technology savvy. So it was easier for me to operate all those things than some older person or older bishops or elderly bishop. So that was something that I thought like, well, it's nice to be a bishop because right now, because of the pandemic. So that's pretty much what happened. And at that moment, it was 2020. It was probably June, July 2020. At that time. My wife was. She found that she had like a little thing here in. In her neck. It was one of the lymphs, the lymphatic system.

John Dehlin [02:59:45] Lymph node.

Moroni Ortiz [02:59:46] Yep, a node. It was growing here at the time. She noticed that she was sick. She had the flu or something. And she said, like, she's a nurse, she's a registered nurse. And she said, like, it's probably because of the infection, so I'm not going to worry about it. It's going to disappear. It didn't disappear. Every once in a while I would ask her like, hey, do you still have that thing there? And she was like, yeah, it is still here. And then I told her, like, you should go get a doctor's appointment on that. And she mentioned, like, yeah, I think so. But it's Covid there.

Moroni Ortiz [03:00:18] Hospitals are full. I don't want to get, you know, Covid get infected. So we waited a few months more until one day, I think we were still in the pandemic. But we would, as we were at home all day on Saturday, sometimes I would go to, like, Costco, for example, get some grocery. And she would wait in the car, and then I would go to another grocery store to get other stuff. And that was the only thing that we did to get out of home every week. So in one of those trips to get grocery shopping, when I came back home, she was laying on the floor and she was saying, I feel really, really bad, and I was scared and all that.

Moroni Ortiz [03:01:02] And then she started, like, investigating and getting doctor's appointments and all that. And we went to one appointment because she knew that she had some nodules in the thyroid, and she thought it was related to that.

John Dehlin [03:01:17] That.

Moroni Ortiz [03:01:17] And then that doctor actually sent us to a nematologist who is the person who's in charge of, like, all the blood issues and the lymphatic system and all that. And then they started, like, getting biopsies of her, and it turned out that she had cancer. She had a Hodkin.

Wife's Cancer Diagnosis and Deepening Doubts

John Dehlin [03:01:35] Hodgkin's lymphoma.

Moroni Ortiz [03:01:37] Lymphoma, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:38] Okay. Was it non Hodgkin's?

Moroni Ortiz [03:01:41] No, it was Hodkins.

John Dehlin [03:01:42] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [03:01:43] Yeah. Because there is none. And Hutkins. But hers was Hodgkin's lymphoma. And because time had passed, a few months had. Even though it is not like other types of cancer, which are really, really harsh and really aggressive and invasive. But a few months have gone by, so it have gone from the neck to the Mediastin area. I don't know the names in English of those medical terms, but. But she had a mass in her chest that was growing.

John Dehlin [03:02:14] So certainly you're going to be released as bishop. Now your wife gets cancer. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [03:02:17] I thought. I thought. I mean, as a true believing member, orthodox Mormon, you are never going to ask for a release. Or at least that's the way that I was raised. I mean, if you get a call. And in my mind, it was like I was called as a bishop. I was approved by the prophet. So then I am not gonna ask for a release on this call because the Lord knows me, he knows my situation and he's gonna inspire my leaders to release me when they get this news.

John Dehlin [03:02:52] Yeah, because you're two young kids, you're trying to keep your own career. You're not being paid to be a bishop. And now your wife has cancer. Certainly are going to be released.

Moroni Ortiz [03:03:02] I thought I was sure I was going to be released. I was never asked about it. I was asked later, but that's a whole other story which I'm going to cover later, but at that time. So my wife started her treatment on December 2020 and for six months she remained like having chemotherapies every two weeks. Fortunately, the, the treatment was good and she's in remission right now. So she just has doctor's appointments every six months or every three months. It is now every six months because it's been two years. But now every six months she has doctor's appointments and RX and all that.

Guest [03:03:36] She's doing good.

Moroni Ortiz [03:03:37] Yeah, she's been taken care of. And, and fortunately for us, we had a good health insurance which cover all the costs for that because like every chemotherapy session was close to 15k USDs. So it was really, really expensive.

John Dehlin [03:03:52] Dang.

Moroni Ortiz [03:03:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:53] Okay, so was there ever conversation about, hey, stake president, why aren't you releasing me? Or anything like that?

Guest [03:04:00] No, never.

Moroni Ortiz [03:04:00] The only thing that he mentioned is like they were gonna be praying for me and so they knew. They knew. Yeah, yeah. I talked to him, like I let him know, like, hey, this is happening. And then he told me like, well, the first thing is your family, but continue working as a bishop and just delegate more on your counselors and on the elders quorum president, Relief Society president, and don't attend any meeting. At that point we, there were some hints that we were going to be back to, to normality.

Guest [03:04:26] To going back to church.

Moroni Ortiz [03:04:28] Yeah, going back to church and all that. And he said like, no, just continue. If you have to interview someone, do it virtually and all that. And that's what happened. So those six months were really, really hard because I was super tired.

Moroni Ortiz [03:04:42] I really thank my parents because they helped a lot, mostly with the kids. So we pretty much stayed at my parents house for four months while my wife was receiving treatment. When she started feeling better, we went back home. But. But still, my oldest son was still at my parents for pretty much all week long. And I really appreciate that because the most support that I got was from my family, from my mom and My dad and my siblings. So that's something that I really appreciate. It was a really hard moment. It was a really hard time for us. When you have someone who is struggling with cancer, you cannot avoid to think, is this person going to die?

Moroni Ortiz [03:05:23] What's going to happen with my kids? I mean one was three and the other one was one year old. So you start questioning that and then you realize, yes, I have the promise that I'm going to have an eternal family, but if my wife dies today, then my kids are going to be orphans. They're not going to have a mother to take care of them. Even if in the eternity she's going to be there for their childhood, they're gonna have me and yeah, their extended family, but not her mom.

Moroni Ortiz [03:05:54] And it was, it was really hard. I mean you have to deal with that. You have to deal with those feelings. And again, as a true believing orthodox Mormon, you start also questioning, or at least I did, like, is it a punishment because of something that I, that I did? Is it because of something that happened? Is if, is it because, is it just a test? Like what is going on? And it was really hard at that time.

John Dehlin [03:06:24] A comment just came in from a viewer who wrote this is Doug Vincent. He writes my stake president's wife was diagnosed with cancer. Right when he was called, he was not released and stake president served for 10 years. So just to, just to make the point that you're not the only one, did you, did you, you know, I guess now is the point where we're going to start talking about in your outline, the cracks that develop in your faith, why you're serving as a Mormon bishop. Was that an early crack? Did you start to question inspiration of your stake president or of, you know, the fact that Mormon church leaders are inspired of God, period? When that didn't, when that release didn't

Moroni Ortiz [03:07:06] come, I think, I think it. And it did. I mean that situation affected, but I wasn't really aware of that. So again, in this period in my life, remember that I was staying at my parents house because my wife was taking her treatment and they were helping us with that. And my brother was there.

Moroni Ortiz [03:07:27] And one time at night at dinner we started talking about second anointing again. And I, because this was happening so fast, pretty much at the same time. So I was having, my wife was having that treatment, I was having these feelings. I was probably thinking, I am going to be released, should I ask for a release or not? And I was also really close to my family. I was talking to my brother One day and he started mentioning second anointing. And he was still attending institute at the time, and he had some friends that were investigating about it, and they were really close with one former temple president who gave hints about second anointing and all that.

Moroni Ortiz [03:08:07] And then one of his friends whose father was a mission president and later was an area 70, he mentioned, like, no, second anointing is real. I mean, it's something that happens in the temple. And in Monterey Temple, we have two ceiling rooms. And in the biggest ceiling room on ceiling room number one, on the back of where the sealer, that's how you call the cellador, on the back of the ceilar, there's a hidden door.

Moroni Ortiz [03:08:29] I mean, you can tell there's a door, but it is hidden. And my brother told me, like, once he asked the temple president, like, in English, because it was an American temple president that my brother asked like, hey, what is that door for? And the temple president said, well, that's a room where the brethren keep some stuff and they have the key to that.

John Dehlin [03:08:49] But that's where the sort of labanist comes. Yeah, no. And what do you think does happen in that room? Just.

Moroni Ortiz [03:08:57] I know what happens in that room.

John Dehlin [03:08:59] Tell our viewers and listeners what happens in that secret room.

Moroni Ortiz [03:09:02] Every temple is prepared to have one sealing room. Well, there's two ways. If it is a big old temple, they would have a place that they call the Holy of Holies. And if it is a new temple or a small temple like the one in my hometown, in that ceiling room, it is prepared to become a Holy of Holies. And the Holy of Holies is the place where you.

John Dehlin [03:09:21] It's probably dedicated maybe.

Moroni Ortiz [03:09:24] Yep. Well, some other church member who work for the church told me a few years before that experience that one time I was at the temple cleaning the temple. Actually, I was not a bishop yet, but this brother worked at the temple, like, for maintenance. And he knew me and he told me, like, hey, I can give you a tour to the temple. There's like, our temple is just one floor, but there's a second floor which is hidden, which is for maintenance. So when you need to change a light bulb, you go there and you change it. And they keep carpets there and chairs and stuff.

Moroni Ortiz [03:09:58] It's like a warehouse on top of the temple. And there's also a staircase that you can take all the way up to the tower where Moroni is. So he showed me that and then he told me, like, and have you seen that door which is hidden in the ceiling room? Yeah, and he told me, like, well, that's the holy of holies, and only the prophet can enter there. He started telling me some things that didn't make. I was like, yeah, he's making this up. I mean, what's this? But he explained that that was the holy of holies, that only the prophet could enter that and that.

Moroni Ortiz [03:10:27] I don't know if this is true or not, this might be a myth. But he even mentioned that when a temple is dedicated, the prophet enters there, prays there, and then opens the door and then invites the Lord for a temple tour, sort of a temple tour before getting dedicated.

John Dehlin [03:10:44] So the prophet escorts Jesus through the temple to give him a tour.

Moroni Ortiz [03:10:48] That's what this brother said. He's not a general authority. He's not. But that's what he mentioned. And I was like, but that folklore

John Dehlin [03:10:55] is important because it makes members believe that these prophets, seers, and revelators not only speak with God, but, like, hang out with us. Yeah. Hang out with them. Right? Spend time with them. Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [03:11:07] So that's what he explained. I didn't quite believe everything he said, but. But that holy of holies remain.

Guest [03:11:12] Let me say that I do know. My parents are really close friends with the Merida mission president, and the mission president has told stories of seeing Jesus in the temple, like, walking around. Okay, so it's like, it's not uncommon even for top leadership to believe those types of things.

John Dehlin [03:11:32] Yeah, yeah. And you were going to tell us what actually does happen in the room.

Moroni Ortiz [03:11:36] Yeah. So in that room, when that door is open, there's a sink, and it is prepared for the second anointing, for the washing of your food and all that. So they have all the. Oh, wow. Yeah. The feet washing.

John Dehlin [03:11:51] Is it where the woman washes? Where the wife washes the husband's feet? She gets the water from that room,

Moroni Ortiz [03:11:58] or the apostle has to wash the feet, too. So I.

Guest [03:12:01] They just get the water from there.

Moroni Ortiz [03:12:02] They get the water from there and it is prepared for that.

John Dehlin [03:12:05] I mean, but also, if I remember Tom Phillips, his interview on the second anointing, correctly, after the pro. After the apostle washes the feet of the couple, the couple is invited to go to a private room where the wife washes the husband's feet and anoints

Guest [03:12:25] and gives a blessing.

John Dehlin [03:12:27] The man. The husband and gives up this man's a blessing, would that. Would it have. Would that be where the couple retreats to.

Moroni Ortiz [03:12:35] No.

John Dehlin [03:12:35] To do that part of the second anointing?

Moroni Ortiz [03:12:37] No. In this temple specifically, I think, because the way the temple Is laid out. This is the place where they do the first part, where the apostle washes.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] And you probably. Maybe you don't know where the second part takes place.

Moroni Ortiz [03:12:48] No, because I have heard that. I think it was Hans Matzson who said that you can do it at home. Depending on the temple that you are anointed in, you can go home and dedicate one room for that. And then they do that second part part at home.

John Dehlin [03:13:02] Wow, I. I didn't remember that. And. And we'll include links to the Hans Matson interview where he also talks about.

Moroni Ortiz [03:13:08] And his book.

John Dehlin [03:13:09] Receive it. Yeah, his book. Hey, hey, Hans. He wrote the book is called

Moroni Ortiz [03:13:20] in the search of truth, or I don't know the name in English, but yeah,

Guest [03:13:24] he hand sent Moroni.

Moroni Ortiz [03:13:27] Hand sent me a copy.

Guest [03:13:28] Copy in Spanish.

John Dehlin [03:13:29] No, I remember. I remember Truth seeking. It's called truth seeking. Truth seeking, yeah. Anyway, okay. So your brother. So your brother starts talking about the second anointing again.

Moroni Ortiz [03:13:42] I mean, it is true. And that's why they have that door. And he starts saying some weird things. And then I say, like, well, if he's saying that and he's so sure and he has researched so much, then it must be true. So I'm gonna research, too. And this is crazy because it was one night, my wife was already asleep. I think that that specific night, she had chemotherapy, so she would sleep more than usual. And I was laying down with her, and I was using my cell phone, and I typed in Google, second anointing. And I started reading. I had already read Bruce McConkey's talk about making your calling election.

Moroni Ortiz [03:14:21] Sure. And there it says that you can receive that certainty in your life. And it tells BYU students that if the Lord has said that you can receive the second anointment, because it is actually in DNC132, where the Lord says to Joseph Smith that I seal to you your exaltation and all that. So if the Lord gave that to Joseph Smith and if he's telling church members that they can do that, it means that you have the potential to receive your second anointment. And it doesn't say how it is received, but it gives hints on that, then I said, like, well, then this must be true. So I continued researching, and that night I found the Tom Phillips Mormon stories interview.

John Dehlin [03:15:03] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [03:15:04] And I listened to the whole interview that night, I guess, because I remember that I woke up and I was like, oh, I know a lot about second anointing. Right. And it is something. It is real. I mean, it's something that happens in church. And that research about second anointment

John Dehlin [03:15:23] was

Moroni Ortiz [03:15:23] what reactivated my church history research.

John Dehlin [03:15:26] So you stumble on Mormon Stories podcast as an actively serving Mormon bishop.

Guest [03:15:31] I did.

John Dehlin [03:15:31] And you start going down the rabbit hole, basically.

Moroni Ortiz [03:15:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I started remembering all the questions that I have before being called as a bishop, and I started reading more now.

John Dehlin [03:15:42] Let me just jump in there. There's this idea of inoculation. Like in the medical profession, if you get a little bit of polio injected into you when you're a kid, you develop antibodies such that if you ever are confronted with a lot of polio virus or whatever, it doesn't give you polio. So you had been inoculated with enough church history by. By your exposure to the CES letter before you became bishop. Some would apply that metaphor and say, well, you were inoculated because you would have come upon the second anointing, other things, and you would have already reconciled that, turned it off, chose faith, and just said, you know, there.

John Dehlin [03:16:24] These are not the droids you're looking for internally and just moved on. Do you have a sense for what made you more open even though you'd been inoculated, open to doubt as a bishop of all things? Like, most would say, once you're a bishop, you're going to be less inclined to be open to doubt. But you were both an inoculated bishop and a bishop. Does that make sense?

Moroni Ortiz [03:16:47] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [03:16:48] What were you open? How were you open to doubting?

Moroni Ortiz [03:16:50] I think that at that point I realized that there might be other things that I didn't know about church, and that's what opened my mind, like, okay, if this is true and I didn't know about this, and now I'm 30 something years old and I am a bishop and I have been faithful my whole life, then there's a possibility that there are other things that I'm not aware of.

John Dehlin [03:17:10] Oh, so when you concluded the second anointing was not true prior to being bishop, then you discover it was true after being bishop? Yeah. Then you're like, how else have I been misled?

Moroni Ortiz [03:17:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:22] Is that right?

Moroni Ortiz [03:17:23] That's correct.

John Dehlin [03:17:24] Okay. Or what else wasn't I told? Exactly right.

Moroni Ortiz [03:17:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:17:27] Got it. So it's feeling betrayed or misled that opened up the. That sent you down the rabbit hole.

Moroni Ortiz [03:17:34] Definitely. It's like feeling like, oh, well, they've been hiding some things from me. I don't know the intentions on that, on that, because I do not read people's minds, but I know the facts And I am. I think I am a factual person or someone who likes to remain to the facts. So when there are some things where you have like plausible deniability, so to speaking, you have to remain to the facts. And I don't know why church leaders have decided to maintain second anointing as something which is hidden or secret or

Guest [03:18:10] even keep it alive.

Moroni Ortiz [03:18:11] Right?

Guest [03:18:11] Because they could have killed it off.

Moroni Ortiz [03:18:13] And they tried. I think they tried. But then they reinstated. When a few apostles were gonna pass. And they were the only ones who have received it, they redo it and reactivated it. So, yeah, and I was even told, I remember that I was even told by my brother that in the early 20th century, the church used to publish how many people were sealed already. I mean, how many people had already received the second anointment as part of the church's statistics? Someone told him that I haven't been able to confirm, but I've been told that until probably 1940, they used to have one line there which reported how many sealed people they had.

Moroni Ortiz [03:18:59] And those were not regular ceilings. Those were second anointings. It would be nice if someone from the audience has more information regarding that. It would be interesting. But yeah, it was that. Because then I said, well, what else am I missing? And then I reread the CS letter, I reread the gospel topic essays. And then I said, like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this the right way. So I started looking for faithful resources. That's when I bought Draftstone Rolling and I started reading Roughstone Rolling. And I tried to remain as faithful as possible to church resources.

Moroni Ortiz [03:19:37] And even though I tried, there were many things that were. I didn't like whitewashed histories because many of the explanations and the views that you get from those books are whitewashed are not the actual truth.

John Dehlin [03:19:53] So Rough Stone rolling. You felt like Richard Bushman's explanations weren't satisfactory to you?

Moroni Ortiz [03:20:02] Not for me. I mean, I respect his view, his faithful view, and I respect that. And that's something that. I mean, it's important for many church members, I guess. But there are some gaps there. I mean, if you have that view, there are still some gaps that you do not cover having that view. For example, the one thing like probably in the first chapters of the book that came to my mind or that caught my mind, caught my eye was when he said what I mentioned before, that Joseph was prepared to be a prophet by treasure digging.

Examining Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham

Moroni Ortiz [03:20:37] And I was like, well, wouldn't there be any other way to get prepared I mean, why? I mean there are many other things that you can explain on treasure digging and how he acquired that treasure digging ability or whatever it was. But just thinking that it was to get prepared to be a prophet. I think I was told that God is an almighty being. So I don't think he would need someone to deceive people to get prepared to be a prophet. I mean, if God is gonna call a prophet, he would just like we are taught. Right. He's gonna talk to that person and he's gonna appoint him as a prophet.

Moroni Ortiz [03:21:14] Just as in the Bible, just as in Joseph Smith experience the first vision. So why would you need that other experience, which is a bit shady and which is. Was illegal. Illegal too, so.

John Dehlin [03:21:29] And fundamentally deceptive because not only did he never, not only did he never find anything, like you said earlier, but he admitted to his father in law that he was making it all up and never saw anything in the stone.

Moroni Ortiz [03:21:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:42] So why use an instrument of deception? Well.

Guest [03:21:44] And we never have God telling Joseph to go find treasure. Right. Like he never claimed that nowhere. Saying that it was all Joseph thinking

Moroni Ortiz [03:21:55] that he could do it. I think he tried to keep that part of his life hidden. As hidden as possible. Right. That's my perception.

Guest [03:22:03] But he was separate from his Christianity. So try to claim that that was his preparation for a prophet. You know, that's kind of weird.

John Dehlin [03:22:11] Yeah. And if the church believed that God was using treasure digging to prepare Joseph, then they would have been proud of that fact. But instead they hid it from the membership for 150 years. Right?

Moroni Ortiz [03:22:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:24] And denied that it ever happened until the Tanners forced the church to admit it in the what, 1970s and 80s, you know.

Moroni Ortiz [03:22:33] Yeah, definitely. So that, that was one of the things. And there was another thing. Let me just remember. Oh, I remember now. I read the Nav Expositor.

John Dehlin [03:22:44] Okay. And for those who don't know when, when William Law, William Law was one of the members of the first presidency. Joseph's right hand man, basically the year Joseph was killed. Basically. And William Law, when Joseph Smith told William Law he was a polygamist, William Law said, that can't be of God. He left the church and published a newspaper, 11 edition of a newspaper called the Nauvoo Expositor, exposing Joseph as a polygamist. Because Joseph for four or five years had been denying to the public and to the general church membership that he had been practicing polygamy. He had been lying to Emma, to the church, to everyone, to the general public. Then William Law publishes the Nauvoo Expositor. And. And even though the printing press was destroyed by Joseph's command, which put him in jail and ultimately led to his martyrdom, there are still copies that remain, or at least the text remains.

Moroni Ortiz [03:23:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:42] So you read the Nauvoo Expositor.

Moroni Ortiz [03:23:44] I read a copy of the novel Expositor, and then I learned about William Law, and I learned how he had signed affidavits before. Before Joseph told him that he was practicing polygamy or before finding out he had written, like, affidavits which were legally binding, saying that Joseph was not a polygamist, and he was pretty much a witness that he was not practicing polygamy. So the moment he found that out, along with other members, they do what you just mentioned. And then it all made sense to me, because I was told in the church that Joseph being in prison was an injustice. And then I said, like, well, if he commanded the Legion to get rid of that printing press because they were publishing things that he didn't like, and that's against the First Amendment, then that was illegal.

Moroni Ortiz [03:24:39] Then having him in jail was not an injustice. It was something that. Whether you like it or not, if I commit a crime and I'm put into jail, I cannot say, oh, they are holding me here illegally. And this is not just. This is not fair. Because. Because I have committed a crime. And from church and from my parents, I have been taught that I have to be responsible of the consequences of my actions. And that's something that is enforced at church, that if you commit a sin, you have to repent. If you commit a crime, you have to.

Moroni Ortiz [03:25:13] Whatever legal process you have to go on, you have to face it. And then why was he trying to flee from. Because he tried to flee from jail before he was incarcerated. So I was like, okay, then I see the point on William Law. I mean, if someone, let's say, if my state presidency of my bishop or some literal church asked me to sign a legal binding paper as a witness of something and then I find out that it is a lie, then I would probably do the same thing that William Law did. So then William Law is not as wicked as we are taught.

John Dehlin [03:25:49] She.

Moroni Ortiz [03:25:50] He was.

John Dehlin [03:25:50] No, he was a he instead of a enemy of the Church. He was a hero. Right. But the church has either erased him from the. The memory, or they've painted him as a. As an enemy.

Moroni Ortiz [03:26:02] Yes. As an apostate.

John Dehlin [03:26:04] Yeah. Yeah. He's actually a hero.

Moroni Ortiz [03:26:06] And then that was. That was another thing, another big thing that I didn't know. And again, that same sense that I have been seek hidden information. And that's when I realized that the church. The church correlated. History is just telling you half truth. This is not the complete whole picture. And I mean, I get it because I mean, every organization, every government is gonna tell the story the way that they want their history. And there's a saying in Spanish that the history is told the way the ones who won the war.

John Dehlin [03:26:38] The victor.

Moroni Ortiz [03:26:39] The victor.

John Dehlin [03:26:40] The victors write the history.

Moroni Ortiz [03:26:42] The victor. Yeah, that. So that's the same thing. Right? They were trying to do that, but it was a shock because you consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be the one true church. You consider the leadership to be honest. You're asked on every temple interview if you are honest in your dealings with your fellow man and all that. So finding out that they tried to hide some things, it was. It was not something small for me. It was a big deal for me.

John Dehlin [03:27:13] You mentioned then restudying the Book of Abraham.

Moroni Ortiz [03:27:17] Yep, I restudied the Book of Abraham. And more than restudying it, I read more sources of how the translation came to be and I started researching more on Egyptologists and their views. I read the essay. After reading the Now Expositor, I reread the essay on the Book of Abraham.

John Dehlin [03:27:36] This is the Mormon Church's gospel topics essay on the Book of Abraham, Abraham

Moroni Ortiz [03:27:39] on the Book of Abraham, which you can find on the church library, the app. So I reread that in English because as I mentioned in the other episode, gospel topic essays are larger in English and contain more information than in Spanish.

John Dehlin [03:27:52] I did not realize that. So they shortchange the non English speakers and give them summarized abbreviated versions.

Moroni Ortiz [03:27:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:28:00] Wow.

Moroni Ortiz [03:28:01] So I reread that essay and then I said, like, okay, it says. It says that the Book of Abraham's value is on the eternal truths and the spiritual witness that you can get from that. It says that some Egyptologists do not agree on whether it is an actual translation or not. But then I said, I have to research more on this. And then I started researching on other sources and listening to other Egyptologists again, Robert Rittner and others. And I started understanding better on what it was. What the. The Book of Abraham actually watched was, which is like a book of the death which the Egyptians used to. To bury their. Their. Their people. And it gave instructions to them to be able to cross into the other side of whatever they believed. I'm not.

John Dehlin [03:28:51] So, yeah, funerary is the way they refer to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you really went down the rabbit hole. So I guess your summary was that the church had misled you and was misleading the members. And it's one thing to realize that after you serve as a bishop or having never served as a bishop, it's another thing to realize that while you're serving as a Mormon bishop, definitely it is difficult.

Moroni Ortiz [03:29:21] I think it is more difficult when you're a Mormon bishop because of the responsibilities that you have. And I just want to say that I remember the exact day. It was at night one day. My wife and I were already at home. She was still in her chemotherapy treatment. But I remember that I started summarizing all the points. And then I said, well, then there is a possibility that the church history is not true. And then I said, well, it is more plausible for this not to be true than to be true, because then I would have to give so many concessions to Joseph Smith and to Brigham Young. Another big thing on my shelf was the Adam God doctrine. And he.

John Dehlin [03:30:01] Do you want to explain that?

Moroni Ortiz [03:30:02] Yeah. Brigham Young thought, and even included in the temple endowment that Adam was God, the father of this world, and Jesus Christ was the son. But then we have Elohim, which is the grandfather. Yeah. Who was the grandfather of Jesus Christ and the father of Adam. And then it was included in the temple endowment at that time. And it was included from probably 1870, I guess, until 1890, more or less. That's what I have researched. So I realized that and I said, like, well, another big item in my shelf. Because then I realized that I watched Marky Peterson's talk about the second anointing. And on that talk on the second.

Moroni Ortiz [03:30:49] Sorry, I just get mixed. There's a talk. Mark E. Peterson was a church apostle, an LDS apostle, and he talked about the Adam God theory. They called in General Conference. And he said that it was a theory that was taught by wicked man. Then I said, like, well, then Brigham Young is a wicked man, I guess, because he's the one who came up with it. I mean, how are you saying that? I mean, sometimes church leaders are not cautious with their words regarding the past.

John Dehlin [03:31:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, we talked about the fact that Eugene England got in a big fight with Bruce Armaconki, and Bruce Armaconki was claiming that, you know, that Adam got theory was never taught by Brigham Young. And now we know that it was. And this is just yet another of like 200 really disturbing things that the Mormon Church keeps from its membership and from the general public and or has changed its position on once Historians caught the Church with the historical hand in the cookie jar, so to speak.

Moroni Ortiz [03:31:55] Yeah, definitely. And one other big item was, important item in my process was that episode when you interview Shannon Caldwell Montes. Yeah, I read her thesis. Her thesis?

John Dehlin [03:32:07] Yeah, that's on the secret Mormon meetings of 1922, where Shannon taught us all about how Brigham Young. Sorry, how BH Roberts, general authority and church historian, basically started studying the historicity of the Book of Mormon and realized that the, you know, the Book of Mormon was likely, well, had several archeological, geographical, linguistic problems and notified the entire. The first presidency, the quorum of the 12, all the general authorities notified them that the Church had major scientific problems. And then they had these secret Mormon meetings in 1922 to figure out what to do about it.

John Dehlin [03:32:54] And that's what he's referring to. And again, I didn't learn about those secret Mormon meetings until a few years ago, and it was due to Shannon Caldwell Montez. I knew that B.H. roberts had questions about the Book of Mormon and that there was some question whether or not he retained a belief in the Book of Mormon as a historical document by the end of his life. But I had no idea that the entire Church, Mormon church leadership was put on notice. All the anachronism problems in the Book of Mormon, the linguistic problems, the geography problems, the history problems. I did not know that, you know, that the Church knew about all these things and as early as 1922 and then chose to ignore it or hide it or whatever. That was a big deal. And we'll make sure Julia includes links to the show notes. I'm sure she already has. Gerardo.

Guest [03:33:51] Yeah, well, I was just going to say, because somehow I think the belief was. Or we had this impression that the brethren, they get to those positions after being stake presidents in the seventies. They're not historians. They don't study this stuff. And then they're apostles. They're so busy with all the church management, it's impossible for them to know all these problems. So it was a big deal to know. Yeah. That they actually were putting notice about it and they ignored it. You know, they wrote on their journals that they were purposely going to ignore it and that they're going to choose to believe in horses in America. You know, I think it was Tallmadge who wrote on his journal. You know, archaeologists say that there was no horses, but the Book of Mormon says there was horses, therefore there were horses.

John Dehlin [03:34:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And even the Book of Abraham, you know, we weren't taught that in 1912, the New York Times published an article, front page, exposing the Book of Abraham as a false translation. And when were we told that? You know what I mean? Yeah. Okay, so you. You discovered Shannon Caldwell Montez's groundbreaking series of interviews on Mormon stories as a. As a Mormon bishop. And.

Moroni Ortiz [03:35:04] And that's when I. Well, two things. What you have already mentioned that they have known many things since a long time ago, more than 100 years ago, and they decided not to share that with the public, and they kept that hit or whatever. And then in her thesis, there's one part where they mention. I don't remember who was at this moment, but there was one general authority who was studying outside of Utah and then came back to Utah, and then he had the chance to visit David Widmer about the.

Moroni Ortiz [03:35:42] Well, he was one of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon, and he asked him about his experience with the plates. And what David Whitmer told him was that he never really saw the plates, that it was more of a spiritual eyes. Spiritual experience. He saw that with the spiritual eyes. And that's the reason why in the Three Witnesses in the Book of Mormon, it says that it was by the power of God, which you would say, like, well, okay, an angel showed or something. But it seems like it was more of a spiritual, ethereal experience and not actually seeing the physical plates and feeling

John Dehlin [03:36:17] them and touching them and holding them. Right? Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [03:36:20] So that was another important thing for me, because that's what opened for me, the possibility that there were never real plates to translate from the Book of Mormon. And now on the context on using a rock and a hat and all that, then I would think that makes sense. That makes sense that they were not a physical object or a physical item.

John Dehlin [03:36:42] So how did it feel? Okay, so your. Your loss of belief, literal belief in Mormonism occurred around what month and year that was?

Moroni Ortiz [03:36:51] Probably April 2022. 2021. April.

John Dehlin [03:36:55] So basically, two years ago, two years ago, you're two years into your being a Mormon bishop, and you and you concluded that the Mormon Church wasn't true in an orthodox sense.

Moroni Ortiz [03:37:05] Exactly. Okay, so I steal so many good things in the church, and I still do, but I was open to the possibility of it not being true. So one night I was there thinking about all these issues. I was not feeling well. I was carrying all this shame and guilt from whatever, from my calling, from my wife being sick and all that. And then one night when I realized, well, then if this is not true, if the Book of Abraham is not a literal translation, and if the Plates were not real and all the things with polygamy and the Adam God doctrine and all that. Then I said, well then the church is not true, or at least not the way that I thought it was. And the moment that thought came to my mind, I felt relief.

John Dehlin [03:37:54] Yeah, explain that. Why relief? Yeah, I would think you'd feel horrible, like dead inside, like wanting to die. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [03:38:02] I was feeling horrible before having that thought and before rationalizing that things weren't true or things were not the way that I thought it were. But I think the moment that I realized that things were not like that, I felt a relief on many of the guilts that I was carrying because I was worried that maybe the Lord was mad at me or punishing me or something because of many things that were happening in my life at the time. And I was feeling at that time because of the pandemic, the church attendance was low. Many members were not willing to attend church or were doing other things or changing their lifestyles.

Moroni Ortiz [03:38:43] And I was feeling a bit responsible for that. And then when I realized that, I think that the biggest part was I don't have to do those lists of things that I had, like those to do list, those huge to do list. If I miss prayer one night, nothing's going to happen. I'm not going to go to the celestial kingdom for that. And if I do not have family home evening one week, then nothing's going to happen. I'm going to be okay. And that's part of all the relief that I felt.

John Dehlin [03:39:12] We've already touched on this, Gerardo, but. And Moroni, but I am just mind blown that like a scrupulous, hyper faithful Mormon bishop also experiences excessive guilt and shame even when they're living the gospel better than probably most of us ever do as Mormons, you were still racked with endless guilt and shame. It's mind blowing how the church puts people over the rack, so to speak. You know. And that you felt relief when you as an orthodox believing Mormon bishop, and you still are.

Moroni Ortiz [03:39:49] Well, bishop and not orthodox believer, but

John Dehlin [03:39:53] bishop, that you experienced relief when you discovered the church wasn't true because you were so tormented.

Moroni Ortiz [03:40:02] Yeah, it was that. It was all that shame, guilt and all that pressure, all that emotional situation, plus the cognitive dissonance of the church.

John Dehlin [03:40:13] Yeah. Trying to make it all make sense in your brain.

Moroni Ortiz [03:40:16] And then my brain just. It was going a thousand miles an hour and I just stopped like, okay, that's it.

John Dehlin [03:40:21] Wait, there's a simple answer. Yeah. And what's the simple answer?

Moroni Ortiz [03:40:25] That the history of the church, the way that is told is not true and that some of its truth claims are not true either.

John Dehlin [03:40:32] Yeah, yeah, the main ones.

Moroni Ortiz [03:40:35] The main ones, yeah. So I mean, you were mentioning the timeline at the beginning. You have to, you have to put down a timeline from, from 1820 to 1844 if you want, which is Joseph Smith life. That was the beginning of the restoration. If you move that timeline a little bit, then everything messes up. It's like a puzzle. And if you change one of those pieces, then everything else messes around. So if the first vision was not in 1820 and it was later, then that doesn't match with the Moroni and the plates and all that. And if the priesthood was not restored in 1830 because they started teaching that in 1835, then what happened in 1830 when the church was restored?

Moroni Ortiz [03:41:25] And then why did Joseph even join other churches after 1820 if he knew already? I mean, he said in the 1832 account that he already knew that none of the churches were right, were not true. That was a conclusion that he came to by himself. And in the 1838 account he says that he received that by the voice of the Lord. Right. Jesus told him not to join any church. So you start putting all those pieces and then you see polygamy. And then you realize that he was coercing. Is that a word in English? He was actually coercing young women to marry him. And then you can say, well, they didn't have sexual relations with him.

Moroni Ortiz [03:42:11] And I can say, well, I don't know. Right. And I can give him the benefit of the doubt, but the abuse that it means for you to make a teenager marry a 40, almost 40 year old man is, is, is not okay. And the emotional distress.

John Dehlin [03:42:26] Right, I'll keep going.

Moroni Ortiz [03:42:27] Yeah, the emotional distress for a 14 year old girl. 14 year old girl, yeah. Or a few months shy to 15 or. How's that?

John Dehlin [03:42:34] Yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of timeline, how can Fanny Alger be Joseph's first polygamous wife in 1834 or 1835 when the sealing power wasn't even given until a few years later? Right. That makes no sense, let alone the polygamy revelation which wasn't given until Joseph had already had 20 plus wives. How does it make sense? And why was emma like the 23rd wife, sealed to Joseph Smith? Shouldn't she have been the first? Like you start looking at the timeline closely and the timeline itself collapses on itself.

Moroni Ortiz [03:43:10] Yeah, you know, and many other details. For example, in Saints, the book which is in the church library in your cell phone. You can. You can check it.

John Dehlin [03:43:17] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [03:43:18] In the first book is. How do you say tomo in Spanish?

Guest [03:43:21] The first volume.

Moroni Ortiz [03:43:22] The first volume. Volume one. Yep. Chapter 42, it talks about polygamy. And there it says that Joseph married two times or sealed twice to the. What was that? The Johnson sisters.

John Dehlin [03:43:32] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [03:43:33] Just because he was already sealed to them. And then he asked Emma like, hey, okay, now you agreed that I can have multiple wives. Who do you want me to seal with? And then she picks those two sisters who were already sealed to Joseph, and

John Dehlin [03:43:47] then he had hidden that from.

Moroni Ortiz [03:43:49] Yeah. And so they performed that ordinance again

John Dehlin [03:43:52] to fool Emma to make her think it was the first time he had been sealed to them.

Moroni Ortiz [03:43:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:43:57] Knowingly and intentionally deceiving Emma and having them be sealed to Joseph twice.

Moroni Ortiz [03:44:03] Exactly.

Guest [03:44:04] Yep.

Moroni Ortiz [03:44:04] And then I remember I was talking to my dad once and he was mentioning that, well, Emma said that Joseph was not even able to write a letter. A letter. Or type a letter or whatever. And if I'm not mistaken, she mentioned that in an interview, the last interview that she gave to Joseph Smith iii, her son. And it is on that same interview where she mentioned that Joseph never practiced polygamy. So I said like, okay, then she lied about polygamy, because we know, and the church has confirmed that Joseph practiced polygamy. But then she says that Joseph wasn't able to dictate correctly unless the Lord gave him the words, then that is a mismatch. And if she lied in one thing, she could easily be lying on the other. So that's not a resource that I can throw a reliable source. Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:44:59] Yeah. Yeah. So two years ago, as an active, faithful Mormon bishop, you lose your faith in the Mormon Church, truth claims, and experience relief. Now, a lot of people would say, well, the next obvious, logical action of yours is to resign as bishop and to walk away. But now, Today, you know, June 15, 2023, you've still served. You still have served two more years after losing your orthodox faith in Mormonism. Talk about why your immediate first next step wasn't to just go tell your stake president, Release me. I don't believe it anymore. I'm done.

Telling His Wife and Navigating a Faith Transition

Moroni Ortiz [03:45:42] I haven't told anybody about my feelings and thoughts up to this point. So the next step was telling my wife.

John Dehlin [03:45:49] Okay, that's fair.

Moroni Ortiz [03:45:52] To give you some context, my father in law has been inactive for a few years due to the same situation. Church history issues, etc.

John Dehlin [03:46:01] So he lost his faith before you?

Moroni Ortiz [03:46:03] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [03:46:04] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [03:46:05] Yeah. And.

John Dehlin [03:46:06] And as you know your wife was dealing with cancer. So you don't. I can't imagine that's fun to be thinking, let me, Let me add to my wife's burden and tell her that I'm a bishop. But I no longer believe that. I don't know how that was for you.

Moroni Ortiz [03:46:19] Yeah. So my, my. I knew that my wife was mad at my father in law because of that. And when I realized that my father in law was right, I once told my wife, like, you shouldn't be so harsh to your dad because there are many things that he knows and he believes that are right. And I'm just gonna give you one easy task. Read the gospel topic essays and then we can further discuss.

John Dehlin [03:46:48] You said that to your wife? Yes, like two years ago or.

Moroni Ortiz [03:46:51] Two years ago.

John Dehlin [03:46:51] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [03:46:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:52] And did she read them?

Moroni Ortiz [03:46:54] She read them and then one day she mentioned like, well, now I understand. I better understand my dad's standpoint. And then she said, like, we should discuss this with somebody. I mean, we cannot handle this on our own. And the only close people that we had was my family. So we tried to bring those items when we were on Sunday. Usually each Sunday we would go to my parents house and have lunch with them. So we tried to bring these topics and the reaction was it is difficult for any church member, any Orthodox tribal living church member to address this topic. So the reaction was not.

Guest [03:47:36] Especially when they feel like they're not in control, like they don't have the source in front of them, they're being told by somebody else about it and they don't have control about. Like it's. I mean, I can understand. It can be a little bit overwhelming, right?

Moroni Ortiz [03:47:52] Yeah.

Guest [03:47:53] Is that how it was?

Moroni Ortiz [03:47:54] Yeah, it was, it was. And I guess it was overwhelming for them. So we kept, we tried that for a few weeks and then it didn't work and we stopped. We stopped. We. Because we felt like we weren't, we weren't going anywhere. So we stopped discussing that with them. By that time, there were some friends from my mission who had already left the church. So I found in them.

John Dehlin [03:48:14] From the U.S. or from, from the

Moroni Ortiz [03:48:16] U.S. okay, from the U.S. yeah. Actually I, I want to give a shout out to Josh Lange, my elder Lange, my friend from San Antonio, Texas. He was one of the people with whom I was able to share some of these thoughts and, and feelings. And I started sharing this with people that I knew were not gonna judge me. So. A few.

John Dehlin [03:48:33] Yeah. Because who could. I mean, this is. I've corresponded with bishops or stake presidents that Become suicidal. Because who in the heck. There's so much expectation and pressure. Who in the heck are you going to talk to about this? You don't want to go to your Stake President. And even from a standpoint of compassion, you don't want to destroy the faith and the happiness of all the members of your ward or your stake. You also don't want to be publicly shamed, because if they release you two or three years in versus five years in, everyone's going to wonder if you were looking at porn or committed adultery, cheated on your spouse. So it's very easy for a top Mormon church leader in this scenario to feel trapped, like they can't talk to anybody.

Moroni Ortiz [03:49:20] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:49:21] Is that.

Moroni Ortiz [03:49:22] That's correct? Yep. And, well, yeah, you're right. And I mean, I was thinking of it. I was trying to remember how I felt. I actually talked to my wife and I said, like, well, I don't want to go back to. To church. I mean, at that time, at that point, we were still having, like, virtual meetings, so everything was virtual. And I remember telling my wife, like, I don't know if I want to go back to church again. And then at that point when I was like, maybe I have to talk to the Stake President and ask for my release that next month, that next Sunday, sorry. They announced that we were going back to in person meetings. So we were back to church with COVID being lifted.

John Dehlin [03:50:03] The COVID ban.

Moroni Ortiz [03:50:04] Yeah, the COVID ban was being lifted and all that. So we started with sacrament meeting and then with classes. And I think that's what kept me in the church till now, because. Till date, because the first Sunday that we were back to church, you start, like, seeing many people again that you were only seeing virtually. And whether you like it or not, the church and the sacrament meeting and the hymns and all that, that creates a certain atmosphere that makes you feel elevation, emotions.

John Dehlin [03:50:36] Right?

Moroni Ortiz [03:50:37] So I was there and then I was like, well, the way that I thought about it is, like, the members in my ward have nothing to do with church history. They have nothing to do with whether the brethren are being honest. Honest or not. So I said, like, well, I feel okay here. If my wife is okay with it, then I think I can keep on being a bishop for a while. And I can also, like, delay the distress that I'm gonna give to my family if I get released. And I tell them, like, I don't believe in this anymore. So I think those were the two things that kept me in the church that we went back to in person meetings and that I was not feeling.

Moroni Ortiz [03:51:20] I thought I was gonna feel uncomfortable when going back to church. But by that time I had already had many reflections and meditations on what my beliefs were. Because then I had a thing on my cell phone in my hands.

Moroni Ortiz [03:51:38] On one side. I realized that church history wasn't completely true. That through claims of the church were not what I was taught they were. And on the other hand, I was having spiritual experience, and I was still having some experiences that I consider spiritual. Even after finding out that truth claims weren't true and after understanding that church history wasn't real, or how is that Bushman says it, that the historicity or the narrative is not true.

Guest [03:52:13] The dominant narrative,

Moroni Ortiz [03:52:17] that's what I realized, right? So the dominant narrative isn't true. It means that everything that I was taught as a child regarding church history, most of the things that I was taught on seminary, are not true. But still, I was still having some spiritual experiences. And then I was wondering, what do I do with this? Because I still have these experiences. I know that this is not true. I know that probably the priesthood was not restored the way that it is. But I am still having these experiences and I'm still having these promptings to do things, and I'm still having these promptings to go visit someone.

Moroni Ortiz [03:52:53] And then when I get to their house, I found that they were sick or that they just lost their job. I mean, those are real things that I have lived and I cannot deny those experiences. What has changed is the way that I understand those experiences and the way that I see that those experiences happening. Because from my perspective now, the church can help you get those experiences, but you can get them if you meditate, for example, or if you practice mindfulness, which is a trend. I guess it is a trend here too, but in Mexico, everyone outside the religious world is really into mindfulness and yoga and meditating and all that and well being.

Moroni Ortiz [03:53:35] So those things can get you that kind of experiences. And those are not exclusive of the church. That's what I think right now. And I also believe that people's faith have a special power. So it doesn't matter if the priesthood was restored the way that we think it was or not. If someone has faith enough that if you lay their hands on them, they're gonna get healed or they're gonna get comforted or whatever. That is going to be the outcome. Because it's more on the fate on that person than on having an actual authority or something that was bestowed upon you. I don't know if I'M making sense.

John Dehlin [03:54:18] Absolutely. Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [03:54:20] And then that was the way that I rationalized it. And then I said, then I can, if I am still having these promptings, if I am still having overall a positive experience from being a bishop, if I can help church members who are going through some difficulties because they lost their job or because they are sick and they don't have money to pay for their treatments or whatever, then I'm going to do it as long as I am allowed to do it. Because the way that I see it is like the church has many things, many good programs that can help people and I could be an agent of change and a positive agent of change for, for that people.

John Dehlin [03:55:01] Yeah. Another way to say that is a Mormon bishop can do a lot of harm. And so even if you don't believe anymore, one possible incentive or motivation to stay as a non believing Mormon bishop is to be a bishop that cannot, is, is to make sure that no one replaces you that can do that harm and to do lots of good. Just incidentally, I've heard in the past few years people going to their stake president and saying, I don't believe anymore. And then they get called as bishop or into the bishopric and they're like, wait, you don't understand, I just told you I don't believe anymore. And then the stake president will inexplicably say, that's why we're calling you.

Moroni Ortiz [03:55:42] Yes. Not in Mexico, but I have heard people mostly here in the US that had that experience.

John Dehlin [03:55:48] Yeah. So people, just to repeat, people are being called as bishop or into bishoprics as known non believers or high councilors too. Right. Or stake presidencies. Right. Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [03:56:01] My wife, I hope I am not remembering this incorrectly, but I think that my wife had contact with a former bishop from Brazil and he was called as a high counselor. He was called to an interview and they offer him or extended the calling as a high counselor. And then he said like, but I am, I don't believe in this anymore. And they. That's why we need you here. So yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:22] Yeah. So I mean, for those who are judging Moroni for staying in the calling, the church is calling people like Moroni into these callings intentionally. Yeah, sometimes so sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. You mentioned in your outline your wife getting a blessing by a general authority.

Moroni Ortiz [03:56:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:41] Is this an okay place to talk

Moroni Ortiz [03:56:43] about that and how it was exactly in this timeline? So. So it was probably. She was finishing her treatment and there was a state conference. It was virtual for most people.

John Dehlin [03:56:54] Her cancer treatment. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [03:56:54] Her cancer Treatment? Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:56] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [03:56:56] So it was virtual for most people, but for us bishops and other leaders, they invited us to the Stake center. And for bishops, we had a meeting and a small lunch with the general authority who was presiding, who at the time was the second counselor in the area presidency. And when he heard about my wife's situation, he said that he wanted to give a blessing to her. And so she received a blessing from him.

John Dehlin [03:57:24] And any outcome.

Moroni Ortiz [03:57:27] Well, she is okay. Right. Her treatment was almost done, and we appreciated that. I remember that my wife and I had already had some conversations regarding church history. She had already read the essays at this point, and her answer was like, well, anything can help. And if that's something that's going to help me, then I'm up to that. And then we accepted the

Guest [03:57:51] offer.

Moroni Ortiz [03:57:51] The offer, Yep. And then after that visit, a few months later, my stake president asked me if I wanted to get released because of my wife's situation. But I already rationalized what I explained.

John Dehlin [03:58:03] This is after she had her treatment.

Moroni Ortiz [03:58:06] After she had her treatment, then after

John Dehlin [03:58:09] her cancer went into remission.

Moroni Ortiz [03:58:10] Yeah. And after the general authority gave a blessing. So I think that maybe the general authority asked him, like, hey, you should be aware of him and probably extend the release or something.

John Dehlin [03:58:23] So your wife had maybe been estranged a little bit from her dad because he had lost his faith over truth claims. Was there a reconciliation there?

Moroni Ortiz [03:58:31] Definitely, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:58:32] Yeah. Anything you want to say about that, or.

Moroni Ortiz [03:58:37] My wife actually texted or called my father in law and she apologized for being harsh to him. And then he was like, what are you talking about? And then she said like, yes, I was mad at you because you left the church and I could not understand how you taught us about church, how you were a missionary and how you left the church. And I was really mad at you because of that. But now I understand your position. I see what you've been through, and I'm sorry for that. And from that moment on, the relationship has been better. Way better.

John Dehlin [03:59:09] Yeah. I love those types of stories. Sometimes going through a faith crisis improves relationships with family members, doesn't always damage them.

Moroni Ortiz [03:59:20] And that was her case.

John Dehlin [03:59:21] Yeah. Okay, so the last section of your outline is titled My Life as a Non Literal Believing Bishop. So one. One thing that blew my mind when we were having yogurt or gelato yesterday was to find out you're. If it's okay talking about this. Your wife has been inactive for the past two years. So you've been a. A lone bishop without your wife attending. Yes. And how weird that must be to be a bishop where your wife and kids and kids are inactive and yet you're counseling members. And we were joking that you get put on the concern list for the ward even though you're bishop.

Moroni Ortiz [04:00:03] Yeah, it is difficult. I mean, it is a bit uncomfortable for me. As I was mentioning yesterday.

John Dehlin [04:00:08] Do you pressure her? Were you ever like, come on, keep coming. I want you there. You're embarrassing me?

Moroni Ortiz [04:00:14] No, no, never. Because I understood her position and I knew she was right. And I knew that the one that was weird about it, I know that I was taking the decision with. Was not the most rational one. Because at some point before going back to church, like to live church. So to speaking, I was telling her, like, we should leave. I don't think I'm gonna be able to go back to church and to preside sacrament meetings and all that. I don't think I'm gonna be able to do that. And then I went back to church. I liked it because that's what happened. I mean, completely honest. I like being back to church every Sunday and I like being with the Jude on Wednesdays.

John Dehlin [04:00:53] Dude, I went to church a few weeks ago.

Moroni Ortiz [04:00:55] I know.

John Dehlin [04:00:55] And I enjoyed it.

Guest [04:00:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:00:58] Like, I get it.

Moroni Ortiz [04:00:59] Yeah. Yeah. For example, yesterday I was here at Temple Square doing the tours and all that. And I loved it. I mean, it's really good. I mean, being at the tabernacle, listening to the organ recital, and then it is my first time in Salt Lake. For those who. Who are viewing this episode, I have never been to Salt Lake before, so I had to go there. I had to visit those places that I wanted to visit since I was a kid. So I visited the tabernacle, the assembly hall, the conference center, the church history museum, and it was a great experience. I was there talking to the sister missionaries and all that.

Moroni Ortiz [04:01:35] It was quite nice. I really enjoyed that tour. Yeah. So it is nice. I mean, it is good. And it reminds you of many things. I mean, as you are culturally a Mormon and you were raised as a Mormon, is part of your life, is part of who you are.

John Dehlin [04:01:51] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [04:01:52] So you imagine if there were more bishops like Moroni, oh, I could be a better church.

John Dehlin [04:01:59] Well, I was going to make the point. There's no way you're the only bishop that's gone through this or that is going through this.

Moroni Ortiz [04:02:04] Right, right.

John Dehlin [04:02:05] And I mean, there's 30,000 bishops in the church worldwide. What's the chance you're the only one? Zero. Right. Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:02:14] And many of them do not want, for whatever reason and that something that is respectable. But they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to go public and that's okay.

John Dehlin [04:02:24] They don't want to come on Mormon

Moroni Ortiz [04:02:25] stories, they don't want to come. But I mean, if I have the chances to do it, if I want to do it, as you mentioned at the beginning, it's not because I want to destroy anybody. Faith is because I want to tell the world and the YouTube and the Internet that you can do whatever you want. I mean, you were made free and if you like attending church, even if you are a non literal believer, then be my guest. I mean if that's something good for you and your life, then I don't see why not doing it. And if I know that many people in the audience are going through this on their own.

Moroni Ortiz [04:03:06] So I just want to tell them that there is someone who understand them and that is great to have this community because we are not going to agree on everything. But it's good to have that kind of support. And for me that's the most important. That's the main reason why I'm here.

Conversations with Stake President About His Doubts

John Dehlin [04:03:26] You talk about Ensign Peak and church finances, how that affected you, but also how it led to some conversations with your stake president and even to your own decision to stop paying tithing as a Mormon bishop. Do you want to talk about all that and how your stake president knows that and has kept you in as bishop Anyway. Talk about all that.

Moroni Ortiz [04:03:47] Yeah, so. Well, I have known about the Ensign Peak probably since it was the New York Times or. Yeah, it was the New York Times, the Washington Post, whatever. Yeah, it was the Washington Post. Actually since that note was out was released, I have known about it. And at that point I changed. I have to tell you some context when I was called as a bishop in my interview to be called as a bishop, one of the things that the stake president stressed was that I should spend less on helping people. Helping people. Yeah, on fast offerings than the previous bishop because he has, he had had some surgeries, helping people with surgeries and stuff like that. And that year expend was high.

John Dehlin [04:04:37] So it's like let's help the poor less. Bishop Moroni. Yeah, right.

Moroni Ortiz [04:04:42] Bishop Ortiz pretty much. He, he said like.

Guest [04:04:44] And you told me those numbers from the previous bishop is. It's not, not.

Moroni Ortiz [04:04:49] Those were my numbers. I mean those were the numbers that I sure were from. From.

Guest [04:04:53] But I think you've told me kind of like maybe what it would have been or maybe maybe I misunderstood.

Moroni Ortiz [04:05:00] I think at that time I shared what I was Spending the first year and then what I am spending now.

Guest [04:05:05] Okay, yeah, makes sense.

Moroni Ortiz [04:05:07] So what the Sikh presidency said is, and that's in the handbook, it says like if a member needs help, they should go to the government or the family before coming to the church. So that's pretty much what he advised me. Like, try to use all the resources that are available before using the church funds. If someone can donate their time or their resources, that's okay. And then go use the fast offerings and if there's any help that is needed after that, then you can use the fast offerings. I mean, and we're not going to say no, we're not going to not take care of any need.

Moroni Ortiz [04:05:43] But that was something that I was advised of after learning about Enzyme peak and after learning that they were having at that time. When I found out almost it was estimated to be $100 billion. Then I was like, well that thing is giving you a profit or a return on investment of what, 7%, 6%.

Moroni Ortiz [04:06:09] So that's $6 billion each year. That's enough to operate the church then. Plus that you are receiving tithing and you are receiving fast offerings and you're receiving other additional donations, plus there's assets

John Dehlin [04:06:24] we don't know about. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:06:26] Then I said, like then I'm not gonna stop helping church members and spending probably $200, $500.

John Dehlin [04:06:34] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:06:35] I mean that doesn't make sense because it is a small percentage of all the wealth the, the church holds.

Guest [04:06:41] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:06:42] So I do try to help people be self reliant. I do not help people just because. Just because, I mean, when they need that help, when they have really done the best that they can and they still cannot pay for medical treatment or some other needs, we help them and we help them good. I mean, it's not like we are cheap with the help, but I think that's a big difference that I have been able to make. And some people might think that's just a word that just the church has I don't know how many thousand words around the world. But there's a story about a guy that is running in the beach and there are some. I forgot the name. Estrellas. The mad starfish.

John Dehlin [04:07:25] The starfish story.

Moroni Ortiz [04:07:26] Yeah, yeah, the starfish story. There's this guy running on the beach and then he's taking a starfish and throwing them into the water. And then one person comes by and say, hey, what are you doing? I'm saving the starfish. And then he, the other person said, well, there are thousands of Them you're never gonna be done. You're not gonna make a difference. And then the person replies, well, that was a difference for that starfish.

John Dehlin [04:07:48] He picks up one of the starfish, throws it and says, I made a difference to that one.

Moroni Ortiz [04:07:51] To that one, right? Yeah, yeah. So that's how I feel. I think that I'm making a difference to those members. And after that was 2021 to move forward in the timeline in 2022, in May, we had a conversation with my parents where we pretty much told them where we were standing at that time. We also had an interview with my stake president. It was weird because I haven't really talked about to him about my situation up to that point until last year, April. So he called us for an interview. He started interviewing my wife, and then he interviewed me. I don't know what was the reason for that interview. It kind of seemed like if I was going to get extended another calling, but I will never know because I

John Dehlin [04:08:35] was not like, state presidency or something.

Moroni Ortiz [04:08:39] I think there's a possibility because of the timeline, because it was a month and a half or a month before stake conference. So, like, the timeline matches. And because up to that point, I have only had like two, two or three other interviews with my stake president. I have been bishop for almost what, three years at that point, and I have only had, like a few interviews with him. So it was not something common. And it is not common that he asked the wife to come. And his wife was waiting near the. Or beside the stake president's office is the High Council room. And her wife was waiting there.

Moroni Ortiz [04:09:19] So I don't know what she was waiting for there. So I don't know. I mean, I don't want to speculate anything because I don't know. But in that interview, my wife asked him to release me. Like, hey, if you really want to help me, I've been through so much. I think it would be better if you release him so that he can spend some time with us as a family. And then he called me in and we talked to each other, and then he called my wife, and they have a bit of an argument there. That's the last time my wife talked to our stake president because he pretty much said that he was not going to release me at that time.

Moroni Ortiz [04:09:55] And then I asked for another interview a month later. By that time, I had already spoken to my parents, and we told them, like, this is where we're standing. This is what we have found out. This is how we're feeling towards church and I told them, like, I feel like I can still be a bishop. And then my mom told me, like, I think you should remain a bishop because it is better to have you as a bishop than to have some other crazy member as a bishop and cause harm to members. So my mom. I found that my mom is a bit more progressive than I thought and that that's been nice too.

John Dehlin [04:10:29] She's a smart woman.

Moroni Ortiz [04:10:30] Yep. And you asked about the ensign peak. So, yeah, I knew that was the situation. I knew there was an investigation. And for me it was important that ensign peak situation, because that is what closes the circle in the church. Because the thing that has affected me the most about church is finding that church leaders haven't been always honest.

Moroni Ortiz [04:10:53] And they are asking for a high standard on honesty for us as church members. So I don't know the reasons why they did that. And I am not judging the reasons. I am just being factual. And the fact is that they have not always been honest. From Joseph Smith all the way through B.H. roberts and the secret meetings of 1922 to Joseph Filling Smith cutting off the page on Joseph Smith journal of the 1832 account, to many other talks. Two church manuals, for example, the Brigham Young Manual on Church Precedents that was used for Relief Society and Priesthood quorums, they hid the Adam God doctrine.

Moroni Ortiz [04:11:37] But they add some paragraphs there where they cut off where, for example, Brigham Young was saying in the Journal of Discourses that Jesus and Adam and Elohim was the grandfather. And then they cut that part on Elohim the grandfather, but they added the rest of it. So that's dishonest. And that's there. That's factual. That's something that you can prove. I mean, you can go to a Journal of Discourses and read that paragraph and then you can go to the Brigham Young book and read that paragraph which is arranged the second anointing being hidden for whatever reason. I mean, it is hidden from most church members.

Moroni Ortiz [04:12:10] And this ensign peak situation just closed the loop. Because this is when I realized after the ruling, that's when I realized that church leaders are still hiding things sometimes for whatever reason. I don't care how good the reason, they have to hide these things, but they are still hiding some things and some important things. Because we have the examples of other institutions and other organizations which are transparent with their finances. We are, at least in Mexico, we are trying for the government to be more transparent in the way that they spend money and to have the Church of Jesus Christ not being honest about their Finances creating shell companies to hide the investments that they have so that they are not on the record.

Moroni Ortiz [04:13:01] That's what, for me, that's what closed the circle. Because then I saw that the same situation that was happening 190 years ago or 180 years ago or 100 years ago or 50 years ago is still happening. I mean, church leaders are not being completely honest. Just one thought. The rock and the hat, they do have the seer stones and they have had those seer stones for decades in the first presidency Bolt.

Moroni Ortiz [04:13:31] Right? So it means that they have had about, they have known about them for decades. And this is something that my friend who I shout out before mentioned. And I, I agree with him. They have known all the way, at least all the leaders that are right now in the top 15, they have known about this. And they have probably seen those earth stones for decades before they made that public. And now with the Ensign Peak situation is the same. I mean, they decided to hide that money for whatever reason. That's not honest. And I don't feel that I can trust them anymore on paint my tithing.

Moroni Ortiz [04:14:15] And that's what I told my stake president. And actually that interview which happened in April is pretty interesting because my stake president is a finance guy. So when I told him, hey, have you heard about the Ensign Peak and the SEC ruling? He said, yes, I'm aware of that. What do you think about it? I think it was wrong. And he said, I agree with you, it was wrong. It was not correct for the church to hide that money. From his perspective, he said, the only reason that I find for them to do that is because they wanted to avoid paying taxes or lose their tax exempt status.

Moroni Ortiz [04:14:48] So that's pretty much what he said. Like, I agree with you. It's not correct. He said, like, I don't expect church leadership to apologize of that. I think that they have been called of God and then God is going to hold them accountable of that I'm not expecting for anything from their part. And I was like, well, thank you for agreeing with me for validating my feelings. But I don't quite agree with that. I mean, the church could be transparent if they decide to be transparent. It's just one decision, one simple decision. The church used to release their financial statements up to 1960. Why not doing that again?

Moroni Ortiz [04:15:29] I know that at that time they had financial issues, but now why are not they doing that anymore? So that's what kept me thinking. And then I said, like, I cannot, first of all, the church doesn't need my Tithing because they have plenty of resources.

Moroni Ortiz [04:15:43] Secondly, Joseph F. Smith was the one who said on 1910 that there was going to come a time when the church was not going to ask members for tithing. He was also in 1910 who made it mandatory for members to pay tithing in order to be able to enter the temple. So that's one other thing that I told my stake president. I cannot have the assurance that the way we live the law of tithing right now in the church is the way the Lord is expecting for us to live it, because it doesn't even match what is in the dnc. I mean, in the dnc.

Moroni Ortiz [04:16:17] And we were talking about that yesterday. And John, what's the word that you use for the Tithing in the DNC is the 10% of your increase.

John Dehlin [04:16:25] Increase.

Moroni Ortiz [04:16:26] That's what it is in the dnc. And in Spanish, it's similar. It says interest. So it's not your gross income. It's not even your net income. It's your increase. So we're not living the same law of tithing the way that it was explained, not even by Joseph Smith. So I do not have that assurance that we're living that commandment the way that the Lord is expecting us to live it. So it's not that I am rebel or that I don't want to obey the Lord's commandments, but it's more on I am not sure if the way that we're living is the right way. And unless I get an spiritual confirmation that that is the way that I should be living the law of tithing, I am, I don't feel like I have to leave it because then, and that's something that I was telling my mom, if you are, if.

Moroni Ortiz [04:17:17] If you are paying your tithing and the church is not being transparent about how they use their money, then this could easily be a business and a business that is profiting with the people's faith, because then you're not allowing people to enter the temple because they don't pay tithing. But you're not transparent about how you use your finances or how you deal with your finances. And then you can easily be making a business out of it and out of temple recommends and active temple recommends. So I'm not saying that's the case. I am just saying that there's a possibility and I am not comfortable with that situation.

Moroni Ortiz [04:17:53] And that's the reason why I'm not paying tithing anymore for a while. I haven't been paying for a while. I told my stake President, he actually mentioned in that interview, well, you're going to remain as a bishop because the decision is mine when you're going to get released. So it's going to be five years or more. I don't know. Because I don't know when I'm going to feel like it's time for you to get released. And that's when I told him, like, well, just keep in mind that I'm not paying tithing anymore. And then he mentioned, yeah, I'm aware of that situation, that you haven't been paid tithing for a while.

John Dehlin [04:18:20] I mean, there are people, there are parents of adult children who have been prohibited from attending the weddings of their own children because they didn't pay tithing. And yet you're allowed to remain a Mormon bishop without paying tithing. Like that's by some standards outrageous. You realize that also as a Mormon bishop, it's your job to sign the temple recommendation to say whether or not someone else is worthy to enter the temple. You're not worthy to enter the temple and yet you're signing the temple recommends for the other people to determine their worthiness to enter the temple.

Guest [04:19:00] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [04:19:01] On all sorts of levels.

Moroni Ortiz [04:19:02] That's crazy. Right. That's why I needed to talk to him because I thought he was going to realize that I wasn't pain typing because they have access to that information. So when I gave my tithing declaration last year, I put there that I was not a full time payer and I was just expecting for that call. I mean, I said like, I am being honest because I am putting there that I did not pay a full time.

Guest [04:19:23] Yeah, because you could have rationalized it. Right. Like saying, like, I'm putting so much of my time and I can consider that the tithing.

John Dehlin [04:19:30] I mean, the church does that with its charitable gifts.

Moroni Ortiz [04:19:33] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [04:19:33] This is all sorts of justifications for how it.

Guest [04:19:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:19:36] Spends a billion dollars on charity when it doesn't.

Guest [04:19:38] Right, right.

John Dehlin [04:19:39] Yeah, you could have done that.

Moroni Ortiz [04:19:40] I even thought you put. I even thought about that. I thought if I charge the church the same hour rate that I charge in my job, they're gonna owe me money. But of course I didn't feel honest. That wouldn't have been honest. So I put that in my tithing declaration that it was not a full tithe. And then I told my stake president that on April, and then he said that he was aware of that and that, well, Bishop, on this I cannot agree because we have to leave that commandment the way that the church is expecting us to leave it. And I was telling him like, well, my temple recommend is going to expire in a few months, so just keep that in mind. I'm. I'm telling you in advance so that you can find another bishop.

John Dehlin [04:20:22] Yeah. And that was how long ago?

Moroni Ortiz [04:20:24] It was in April.

John Dehlin [04:20:26] Yeah. Yeah. It is mind blowing that a stake president allows, knowingly allows a bishop to remain his bishop for over a year knowing he doesn't pay tithing.

Moroni Ortiz [04:20:37] I have something else to say about that because he mentioned in that interview that he has discussed my situation with the Area 70 assigned to our coordinating council and to the area presidency. So they are aware of my situation? Sort of. I don't know how aware they are, but at least they know what's going on.

John Dehlin [04:20:54] I mean, we need to make a TikTok of just this past clip for anyone who's denied any access to any ordinance or any calling within Mormonism and just have them show this TikTok or this short to their bishop or stake president and say, you can't keep me from my child's wedding because this bishop was allowed to remain bishop by his stake president and the area presidency. And the area presidency when he wasn't working, supposedly. How about all the students that are kicked out of BYU for like, you know, having sort of some sort of sexual encounter?

Guest [04:21:28] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [04:21:30] But you're allowed to remain as a bishop, as a non tithe payer.

Moroni Ortiz [04:21:32] Even cases of sexual abuse, Right. There has been women who has been expelled because sexual abuse because someone abused them because they were not in the right place in the right time. And I mean, that doesn't make sense. I mean, not in the right place and not in the right time, but I mean, that just doesn't make sense. Abuse is abuse and that's it.

Guest [04:21:52] I would like you to tell the story.

Moroni Ortiz [04:21:54] I mean, how do you.

Guest [04:21:55] How do you feel when you. Every Sunday when you're receiving. Reviewing the tithing receipt and seeing people who may not have enough resources to sometimes, you know, cover their needs and they're paying their tithing.

Moroni Ortiz [04:22:09] That's something that I was talking to John about yesterday. There are some people in my ward who are low income or socioeconomic level. Low socioeconomic level. And I was talking to one of these sisters last week and she was explaining me her situation. She's not really working. His husband is sick. And I was. She's getting money from her family to cover their expenses. And she was asking me about tithing. And I told her, like, you don't have to pay tithing for that because it is not an actual income. It's something that someone is giving you to pay for your bills. So you are not, you don't have to pay tithing for that.

Moroni Ortiz [04:22:48] And then what she replied was like, well, I feel better if I paid tithing out of that, that little money. So answering your question, I mean, I understand where that's coming, but I also understand that some people leave their faith like that and not paying tithing makes them feel uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [04:23:11] Yeah. So some would say it's unethical for you to remain as bishop if you can't qualify for temple recommend, especially given that it's your job to determine other people's worthiness. So what if somebody says you've been a bishop way too long? You disqualified yourself both as a non believer and as a non obeyer of the commandments. Ethically, it's wrong for you to remain bishop. What would you say to that?

Moroni Ortiz [04:23:38] I have thought about that and I have even discussed that with my family as I mentioned. And I would say that I did not remain as a bishop because of some selfish need or whatever it was because it was giving me a platform to do good to other people. So that's the main reason why I decided to remain as a bishop.

John Dehlin [04:24:02] Plus you weren't lying to your leaders to remain bishop with full informed consent. Right.

Moroni Ortiz [04:24:07] I mean, I mean when you are called as a bishop and my sick person was right. Right. Because whenever you're called into any calling, what do they teach you? Our callings? That you are a call of God and you are released when the leader is inspired. So it is not up to me. I mean, if I remained as a bishop, it is not up to me.

John Dehlin [04:24:25] God wants you to be bishop. And God shouldn't be influenced by you coming on Mormon stories, by the way. Like that shouldn't change anything because your beliefs and behavior haven't changed. You've just come on Mormon stories. So if you're released after coming on Mormon Stories, we're going to know it wasn't God, right?

Guest [04:24:41] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:24:42] I mean if I, if I get released next Sunday. Yes. If I get released in two weeks from now, they might have found another bishop. We're going to find that out.

John Dehlin [04:24:52] So you mentioned your outline that you're. And I'm going to read this to give shout outs to other creators you identify as an active Mormon Bishop and as an avid Mormon stories. Bill Real Radio Free Mormon Nuance Hoe and Zelf on the Shelf follower. Yeah, I love that.

Moroni Ortiz [04:25:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I.

John Dehlin [04:25:14] That's so great.

Moroni Ortiz [04:25:16] I'm an avid listener. Listener to them and also not so much lately. But Ex molex. That was one of the first channels that I found.

John Dehlin [04:25:26] Yeah, that's great. Yeah. Okay. And so what's it been like to. I guess in this journey you've found other family and friends who don't believe as well, maybe even ward members. How do you deal with ward members that are struggling in their. In their faith by learning problematic history?

Serving Authentically as a Non-Believing Bishop

Moroni Ortiz [04:25:46] Yeah. There was one ward member who I knew was having a faith crisis for a while. We have had some discussions about it. I agree with him on his point. Like I told him, like, yeah, I agree. I do have questions about these two. About Jeff Smith polygamy, about the book of Abraham. He had many other questions about the rock and the hat, about many things. So I agree with you. And what are you gonna do? I mean, what's your decision on this? And he was like, well, I've been talking about this with my relatives and I feel like they are judging me or stuff like that. So then we assigned him a talk and he talked about his faith crisis in the sacrament meeting, which I think it was great. It was courageous from him to discuss that.

Guest [04:26:34] Wow.

Moroni Ortiz [04:26:35] So I try to give them my support, that I understand them, that it is not bad to have questions and that the facts are there, the church history is there, and the decision to remain a church member or not is up to each person. So I am not trying to tear down the church or whatever. Tear down the church. I am just trying to express my point of view in case it helps anybody who's going through the same situation as I am.

John Dehlin [04:27:09] And of course, you know, part of your story, we won't recover it, but when you came on Mormon stories a few months ago, once the church was trying to get you, once local leaders were trying to get you to fake visiting. What is it?

Guest [04:27:27] Ministering.

Moroni Ortiz [04:27:27] Ministering. Interviews.

John Dehlin [04:27:28] Ministering. Statistics for a pending visit from Apostle Garrett Gong. Check out that episode we did where Moroni didn't use Bishop Ortiz, didn't use his real name, but he became a whistleblower of sorts. We all thought you were going to get outed at that point, that somehow they would listen to the voice or like find a way to track you down.

Moroni Ortiz [04:27:53] They would figure that out.

John Dehlin [04:27:54] Right.

Moroni Ortiz [04:27:54] Because of the numbers and everything was somewhat easy to. To track me down. But I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:28:00] It's been how long? How many months?

Moroni Ortiz [04:28:01] It was in February, so it's been what, three, four months?

John Dehlin [04:28:04] And. And you never heard a thing Never. Yeah. I'm dying to know whether they know and just didn't want to do anything about it, were too afraid, or whether they just don't care or they're not paying attention. I mean, some would say it's arrogant to think that they listen to Mormon stories, but I would think that the, you know, that there is a strength in the church member committee that's always like, got paid spies to be watching the Internet report stuff back. It has to be when a believing Mormon bishop who is serving was a whistleblower on Mormon stories. Gerardo, what do you think?

Guest [04:28:36] Pay attention.

John Dehlin [04:28:36] Yeah, the church would know.

Guest [04:28:38] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [04:28:39] They don't know.

Guest [04:28:42] I mean, it's also the question of who knows? You know, like, is it just the department? Is it a general authority? How high did the information get?

Moroni Ortiz [04:28:51] I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:28:52] Yeah. Well, I guess that leads us to the question now of like. Like, you're. You're going back on Sunday to preside over ward conference.

Moroni Ortiz [04:29:01] I am.

John Dehlin [04:29:02] And you're going to be doing that? The word's already out because we're live streaming this now.

Moroni Ortiz [04:29:06] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [04:29:08] So have you already started getting texts from people like, what the heck are you doing on Mormon stories?

Moroni Ortiz [04:29:12] My counselor was calling me, but I don't know if that's related.

John Dehlin [04:29:15] Wait, what? Your bishopric counselor has called you as you've been on this interview. Oh, no. Are you reading text live? Maybe we don't want to have him.

Guest [04:29:27] What is this?

John Dehlin [04:29:28] The text?

Moroni Ortiz [04:29:29] Sombrisa Sood. Oh, yeah, that's out. Word's out. My goodness, it is so fast.

John Dehlin [04:29:36] What can you tell us about what's on your phone right now?

Moroni Ortiz [04:29:39] It is a post from Facebook from a page name. My goodness. I didn't thought. I didn't think it was going to be this fast. It says that a Mormon bishop is on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [04:29:53] That was posted where?

Moroni Ortiz [04:29:55] That's a Facebook page?

Guest [04:29:57] Yeah, like. Like Mormon Stories Community podcast in Spanish.

John Dehlin [04:30:01] Okay. And you were tagged or what?

Moroni Ortiz [04:30:05] My. The thumbnail is there.

Guest [04:30:09] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:30:09] I mean, and I didn't think it was going to be so fast.

John Dehlin [04:30:12] So what's it going to be like, do you think, to go back to your ward, to face your ward, to face your stake president? Is anyone going to care? Does the church even care about Mexico, really? Or what's going to happen?

Moroni Ortiz [04:30:27] I want to think they care. I mean, I think they're going to care. At least that's what I expect.

John Dehlin [04:30:34] Do you want to predict what's going to happen and how soon, like, will you be released this Sunday or maybe.

Moroni Ortiz [04:30:39] Maybe.

John Dehlin [04:30:39] Will your stake presidency be showing up at your ward?

Moroni Ortiz [04:30:42] Maybe they're going to call me later today or something, so we'll see what happens.

John Dehlin [04:30:46] Are you worried? Are you afraid? Are you. Are you excited?

Moroni Ortiz [04:30:50] Well, the only thing that worries me is people's reaction, because you cannot control people's reaction. So I don't know how that's going to be. How do you say that interpreted by them? I mean, many people in Mexico don't know what Mormon stories podcast is.

John Dehlin [04:31:08] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:31:08] So I don't know.

John Dehlin [04:31:10] But maybe most here don't know what Mormon stories is. Right. Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:31:14] Yeah, that's true. So I don't know. I mean, I'm being honest, and I just want to tell them, like, I don't think that the church is bad, a bad organization. It has been good. Overall, my experience in church has been good. But I cannot deny what I have been living in this past few years. It's part of my story. It's part of my life.

Moroni Ortiz [04:31:36] And. Sorry, I was talking to my stake president and I was talking to my mom, and I was telling them, like, I do not plan, or at least at this moment in my life, I do not actually plan to become a less active member, sort of speaking. Of course, I am not doing some things. I am fully aware of that. I am fully aware that I might not be able to have a calling or something like that. But. But I like the community. I like serving people. So whenever there's an activity to help somebody, I would be really up to that.

John Dehlin [04:32:10] So your preferred outcome would be, number one, do you want to remain as bishop or do you want them to release you?

Moroni Ortiz [04:32:17] I think it is the time for me to get released.

John Dehlin [04:32:19] That's what you want?

Moroni Ortiz [04:32:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:32:21] And that's more likely today than it was yesterday?

Moroni Ortiz [04:32:23] Yeah, probably.

John Dehlin [04:32:24] Okay.

Moroni Ortiz [04:32:25] And I didn't come here because I wanted to get released, because how to get released?

John Dehlin [04:32:28] I mean, hey, moment you want to get released, here's how to do it.

Moroni Ortiz [04:32:33] I mean, no, that's not the reason why I came here. I mean, I'm here. We thought. I thought this was going to be recorded and released later.

John Dehlin [04:32:40] So. Yeah, no, no, no. We got your consent before we started. But when you came here.

Moroni Ortiz [04:32:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:32:45] But.

Moroni Ortiz [04:32:46] But when I came here, when I flew all the way to Salt Lake City, my idea was that it was gonna. Yeah, of course. You didn't push me to something that I didn't want to do, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:32:56] Okay. So your preferred outcome would be that they release you soon, but that you remain A member. Which means your preference would be that you not get excommunicated or disfellowshipped.

Moroni Ortiz [04:33:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:33:08] Or punished for coming on the podcast.

Moroni Ortiz [04:33:10] Exactly. Yeah. Because I am not saying any lies up to my knowledge. I am not being dishonest.

John Dehlin [04:33:15] You're not preaching false doctrine.

Moroni Ortiz [04:33:17] I am not preaching false doctrine either.

John Dehlin [04:33:18] But having said that, if I were to, like, you know. Do you believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is God's one true church on the earth? Your answer would be, I don't think

Moroni Ortiz [04:33:29] there's one only true church in the earth.

John Dehlin [04:33:31] And do you believe that Joseph Smith was God's true prophet of the restoration to restore God's one true church?

Moroni Ortiz [04:33:37] I believe he was inspired. I mean, I cannot deny he was inspired because of many things. Because of the dnc, because of the King Follett's sermon, because of the Book of Mormon. But I don't think that everything he did was correct or was okay.

John Dehlin [04:33:51] But do you believe that Moroni delivered golden plates to Joseph Smith and that he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God?

Moroni Ortiz [04:34:00] I am not sure if there were golden plates at all. I mean, it could be that the golden plates didn't really exist.

John Dehlin [04:34:06] Yeah. And so is the Book of Abraham a translation of ancient records?

Moroni Ortiz [04:34:12] Well, I think it has been proven by science that it is not.

John Dehlin [04:34:15] Yeah. So do you believe that you and fellow Latin Americans are descendants of Israelites that came from Laman and Lemuel, 600 BC?

Moroni Ortiz [04:34:25] I would encourage people to read the DNA and the book of Mormon essay on their library there. It explains that we are not.

John Dehlin [04:34:32] Yeah, yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:34:34] I mean, it is explained there. I mean, it says that we, like, we don't know people. The Peruvians.

John Dehlin [04:34:40] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:34:41] I mean, DNA proves that we're not. And it is there. I mean, it is explaining there. The Church has explained that that's not the case. It's a big change. Right. In the doctrine and in the way that we have taught, oh, huge Latin American people about the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [04:34:57] But most members don't care and aren't paying attention.

Moroni Ortiz [04:34:58] Yeah. Well, then that shouldn't be an issue.

John Dehlin [04:35:00] Yeah. Some people are asking how you can conduct worthiness interviews now that you're no longer a believer. Do you. Is there anyone you would keep from a temple recommend or would you just give it to everybody?

Moroni Ortiz [04:35:11] I am trying to be the kind of bishop that I would like to have when I was a young adult. Youth and when I was a young adult. So I try to be sympathetic to them. I try to listen to them. And so far I haven't been on the need of performing any, like, discipline, church discipline lately. So I haven't faced that issue.

John Dehlin [04:35:38] You wouldn't hold a disciplinary council for apostasy if someone said they didn't believe in golden plates?

Moroni Ortiz [04:35:43] Definitely not. And if there came any time to have a disciplinary council or membership council, I think I would address that with my stake president and tell him that I don't feel comfortable doing that.

John Dehlin [04:35:55] Yeah, okay. Okay. But you're still issuing temple recommends as someone unworthy to enter the temple.

Moroni Ortiz [04:36:02] Yeah, yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [04:36:05] I'm not trying to embarrass you. I'm just. I mean, it's kind of fun.

Moroni Ortiz [04:36:09] Yeah. Well, to my defense, my temple recommends still active, but I've heard of people

John Dehlin [04:36:16] being called into their bishop or stake president and having their temple recommends revoked when they either confess not believing or said that they weren't going to pay tithing anymore. And, you know, so, I mean, there are all sorts of people who have experienced all sorts of pain for doing far less than you, but because they had the wrong bishop or the wrong stake president, they experienced severe punishment.

Guest [04:36:42] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:36:42] And, well, we'll see it, Right. We don't know what's going to happen a week from now.

John Dehlin [04:36:46] So worst case scenario is that the church calls a disciplinary council and decides to potentially excommunicate you. Are you, are you aware that that is a possibility? And how do you feel about that possibility?

Moroni Ortiz [04:36:59] I knew that was a possibility when coming to the podcast. I hope that's not the outcome, but that's not up to me.

John Dehlin [04:37:06] And if you're excommunicated, what are your thoughts on that?

Moroni Ortiz [04:37:09] I'm going to be sad. Really sad. But again, that's not up to me. I. I have not acted in bad fate at all. So at least I can tell that.

Guest [04:37:23] Yeah, yeah, I doubt that's going to be a disciplinary council, but who knows?

John Dehlin [04:37:30] You're saying no excommunication.

Guest [04:37:31] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [04:37:32] Because, like, you know, like Leah, Cody Young, like, just go back a few years. All Leah and Cody Young did was literally create a support group on Facebook for other people in Ohio who were struggling in their faith. That was enough to end coming on Mormon stories. That was enough to get them excommunicated. Plenty of people have been, you know, had disparate councils or excommunications for just all. Bill, you know, you. You agree with Jeremy Runnels in the CES letter. He was excommunicated for writing the CES letter and your beliefs are no different than his, and you're endorsing the CS letter basically publicly. So, I mean, it's weird. Why is the standard so different three or four or five or six years later?

Guest [04:38:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:38:19] All Sam Young did was tell the church they needed to protect his children better, and he was excommunicated.

Guest [04:38:24] Yeah, right.

Moroni Ortiz [04:38:25] And. And I think that was unfair. Sam Youngs, he dwelled any of those situations, but Sam Youngs is the. The most unfair.

Guest [04:38:32] I think part of it, it's going to be the language barrier. Like, how do you choose? How do you show proof? Oh, this is what you said.

Moroni Ortiz [04:38:39] Well, it's now in that Facebook, Spanish, Facebook, whatever. So.

Guest [04:38:43] But the interview is still in English,

Moroni Ortiz [04:38:45] you know, like some viral. Now that is crazy. My goodness.

John Dehlin [04:38:50] What?

Moroni Ortiz [04:38:50] I've never been viral before. Viral.

Guest [04:38:52] Viral.

John Dehlin [04:38:55] Welcome to becoming viral. Obispo Ortiz.

Moroni Ortiz [04:38:59] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [04:39:01] Okay, so you're prepared for that possibility?

Moroni Ortiz [04:39:04] I knew that was a possibility when I decided to come to the podcast again. I am hoping that's not the case, but it's not.

John Dehlin [04:39:13] What if they leave you in for another year?

Moroni Ortiz [04:39:15] Then we can have more episodes. No, I mean, I don't think.

John Dehlin [04:39:22] Start your own podcast at that point.

Moroni Ortiz [04:39:24] Yeah, probably.

John Dehlin [04:39:27] Wow. Okay. All right. Well, I guess if any viewers or listeners have any final questions or comments, we. We welcome. But we're four. Four hours and forty minutes in, so, I mean, I guess this is a natural time to start wrapping things up. Gerardo, any final. I mean, Gerardo, you. You're from Mexico. Your dad's a bishop. Anything you want to share with Moroni, as a fellow Mexicano, you know, as someone who has been prominent in this space for a long time, as someone who understands better than us gringos what it's like for him to do what he's doing coming from the country you both come from. Anything you want to share?

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Guest [04:40:13] Yeah. Well, I think it's amazing. Like, I never thought that would have ever happened, that there would be someone. Members in Mexico learning about the history because the information is not as accessible. I tend to think sometimes that Latinos are a lot more zealot on their beliefs than even maybe American members can be. But I mean, it's great that people are finding out about the history and learning informed consent and can have progressive, non literal believer bishops like you. I think that's amazing for the members, the youth, and in so many ways really what the church needs, I think.

John Dehlin [04:40:58] Yeah. Yeah. I'll just read a couple comments here from our viewers and listeners that I think are interesting. And, Gerardo, if you can find any you want us to share, you can do that as well. Ryan Holly writes, we got our recommend canceled within a week of me telling my bishop we didn't believe anymore. I served as a counselor with him for four years. So it took a week for this person to lose their temple recommend as soon as they said they didn't believe. Again, what weird disparity that you have been able to serve for as long as you have with bishop with such different treatment. Any response to that?

Moroni Ortiz [04:41:39] Yeah, well, that's up to local leadership. Right. So, I mean, again, every leader, for example, I know of a friend who was questioning some things, and then he got an interview with his stake president and he took his temple recommend. And when he told me that, I told him, like, you should go back to your Sikh president and talk to him again and ask him to give it back to you, because you are not, like, apostatizing or anything. You just have some questions.

John Dehlin [04:42:08] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:42:09] And. Well, it's up to each leader. I don't think that it is correct or not, but, yeah, at the end of the day, we're all in the hands of the decision of one person, that one local leader.

John Dehlin [04:42:21] Yeah. Another viewer writes, the church has some positive aspects, but in general can be very damaging to women, people of color, children, and people in the LGBTQIA community. So much psychological damage and all of the shaming. Anything you want to say, Obispo Ortiz? Just about the LGBT stuff or the women, you know, people of color, racism, sexism, homophobia. That hasn't really been discussed in this interview. Really?

Moroni Ortiz [04:42:53] Yeah. Well, my. My understanding of that has changed in time. Of course. I was taught, as every church member, that, for example, that being part of the LGBTQ community is a sin, that it is not correct into the eyes of God. And I thought that it was a choice for the church. So many years, probably when I was a missionary, I thought that it was something that you could choose, like a switch that you could turn on and off. And then I had some LGBT friends who made me realize that that's not the case. So just as the people of color, they did not choose what the color of their skin was going to be, just as I didn't really actually decide in which country I was going to be born.

Moroni Ortiz [04:43:39] And it's the same with LGBTQ community. I mean, they do not decide on their feelings and who they are attracted to. So I think that we need more understanding to them.

John Dehlin [04:43:51] Thank you. Couple other comments. I'll read a lot of people are very grateful that you're willing to come on. Amanda Rogers Stradling writes, you are a good man. You deserve respect and inclusion. You deserve to be a leader. Best Mormon Stories episode I've seen in a long time. There's 1700 plus, so that's a nice compliment. Again, lots of people saying thank you. Cat Smith is also very grateful. Gil Garmentia, or Gil, I don't know how they pronounce it. Gilberto. My parents were counselors twice in Mexico City Temple and Monterey City Temple. They told me about a secret chamber that just the prophets can go inside and that they do special ceremonies there. So that's Gil or Gil confirming what. What you had to say about the Holy of Holies or the special room in the Mexican temples and in all temples, really.

Moroni Ortiz [04:44:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:44:53] All right. Any. Any. Any other comments that you want to add, Gerardo, that you're finding or. No. Okay.

Guest [04:44:58] No, I. I think there's a lot of people saying that this has been a great interview and thanking Moroni. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:45:05] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:45:05] Well, thank you.

John Dehlin [04:45:08] Yeah. Well, I'll just add to that. Moroni Ortiz. I've interacted now with tens of thousands of people and hundreds or thousands of bishops or bishopric members or stake presidents or stake presidency members, and pretty much no one has had the courage to come on Mormon stories, use their face, use their real name, and tell their stories. And I'm not saying the others lack courage. Maybe they just aren't in a position to be able to.

John Dehlin [04:45:42] But under all circumstances, this is an extraordinary act of courage and integrity to do this. And you're literally the first one to ever do it and allow me to release it again. I've interviewed one other currently serving bishop who's asked me to hold the interview until he's released, but this is the first one to do live and live stream and to be released.

John Dehlin [04:46:07] And so it's just an incredible act of courage that I've never seen before in my 18 years of Mormon podcasting. So that's amazing. Thank you. I'm inspired by your courage and your integrity.

Moroni Ortiz [04:46:20] Thank you, John. And just to. If I can have some final words.

John Dehlin [04:46:25] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:46:27] I really love the church. I love the community. I've been inspired by the Book of Mormon, but I have to be completely honest, I have also been inspired sometimes by Jordan Larsen in the series he does with you. A month ago, I was. No, it was probably on Easter. I was preparing a talk for My Word. And then there was someone at the Mormon Stories podcast community who posted on Facebook that they were happy that they could enjoy Easter, like focusing on Christ. And that inspired me to give a talk in my word. So inspiration comes from many different places. I cannot deny the inspiration that I have gotten from the DNC or the Book of Mormon or even the Book of Abraham, and I love that.

Moroni Ortiz [04:47:08] And I just hope that I can continue in this path and that I can find a way to continue serving others, and. Well, that's making a difference, probably. I don't feel like I'm a really important person. I'm just a regular guy. But thanks for your words and just want to let you know I'm here to support and to help this community.

John Dehlin [04:47:32] How can people reach out to you if they need to talk or could use some help or want someone to confide in? How could they reach you?

Moroni Ortiz [04:47:41] Oh, well.

John Dehlin [04:47:41] Or do you want people to reach you?

Moroni Ortiz [04:47:43] I was not prepared for that.

John Dehlin [04:47:44] I don't.

Moroni Ortiz [04:47:45] I don't really mind, but maybe we can post it later. Maybe I can make some.

John Dehlin [04:47:49] Yeah, no worries. And people are asking if you are disciplined or not. Are you open to coming back to Mormon Stories to give us an update? Maybe not live, maybe not in person, but maybe remotely.

Moroni Ortiz [04:48:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:48:03] Yeah. You're open.

Guest [04:48:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:48:05] Well, I. I've. Sometimes when people are really in an angry phase, they are, like, wanting an excommunication to happen. I can tell you, as someone who's experienced it, it's not fun. I don't wish it on anyone. And I think anybody who is seeking an excommunication is mistaken and is probably underestimating how ugly and awful and painful it is. So it's my hope for you that that's not your fate.

Moroni Ortiz [04:48:34] Thank you, John. I. I hope that, too.

John Dehlin [04:48:36] Yeah. And I also want to thank your wife for supporting you both in your journey as bishop, but also being so public because she knows and. And she's not mad at you. And it sounds like she might even be supportive. Anything you want to say to her?

Moroni Ortiz [04:48:53] Well, I love you and thanks for all your support. You have been listening to me, to my concerns. We have been together in this journey, and that's something amazing. I think that it is amazing that we've been together in this journey, even though we don't think the same way, even though we have made some different decisions, we are still together, and that's what matters. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [04:49:16] Love it. I'll end with this one comment from Peter Higgs. He writes this bloke. I'm assuming he's from Australia. This bloke is an absolute legend. Well done for having the cojones. Those are my words, not his. To step up to the plate and tell your story. Thanks for that comment, Peter. Thanks to everyone who's been joining us on the live stream. We've had great comments, great questions, even some donations. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel. Please subscribe to our Facebook channel. Thanks for the donations. Through Super Chat and through the Stars feature in Facebook. The most important way you can donate to Mormon Stories is by becoming a monthly donor. Go to mormonstories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll be able to provide you. Hopefully, we'll have more bishops and stake presidents and maybe mission presidents and general authorities. Come on Mormon Stories over the years.

Moroni Ortiz [04:50:07] That would be great.

John Dehlin [04:50:08] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:50:08] That would be great.

John Dehlin [04:50:10] Yeah. But thanks. And Gerardo, thanks so much for making this happen and for all you do for us in the Open Stories foundation and from Mormon Stories. Yeah.

Guest [04:50:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:50:18] Yeah.

Moroni Ortiz [04:50:19] Shout out to Gerardo.

John Dehlin [04:50:21] All right. Yeah. And thanks to everyone. You know, Julia did the time codes and showed us today. Maven's been monitoring the live chat here and there. And thanks to everyone who makes Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation possible, including the board of directors who have been through a lot this year. So, anyway, thanks to everybody and thanks to you, Obispo Moroni Ortiz.

Moroni Ortiz [04:50:42] Thank you. Thank you, Jan. It was a pleasure being here.

John Dehlin [04:50:45] All right. And we love you all. Do you guys, please be kind to each other. Be good to each other. If you're currently serving Mormon Bishop, Relief Society president, anyone in prominent Mormon church leadership, open invitation to come on Mormon Stories and tell your story. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.