Welcome and Introducing the Laing Family

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1466

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 1, 2021, and today hold onto your hats, sit at the edge of your seats. You are in store for one of those epic family Mormon Stories podcast interviews. Today we are interviewing the Laing family. Hey, Laing family.

Heather Laing [00:00:22] Hello.

Kelly Laing [00:00:22] Good morning.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Hello. How's it doing?

Kelly Laing [00:00:24] Phenomenal.

Heather Laing [00:00:25] Wonderful.

Kelly Laing [00:00:26] Good to be here with you, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] So for those of you who don't know anything about the Laing family, which I'm sure is most of you, I'll just give you a quick, high level introduction. This is an epic Mormon story. It's going to be in multiple parts, it's going to be over multiple hours, but there's so much here. So Kelly and Heather Laing are the parents of four children. They have a traditional kind of story that you're all going to find compelling. You'll hear that Kelly and Heather have both served, you know, lifelong callings in the church at significant levels of leadership. And that's all always interesting in its own right. Some of you who have followed ex Mormon Reddit will recognize their faces because occasionally they've posted photos of themselves as ex Mormons on ex Mormon Reddit because they are friends with, with my dear friends, Jerry and Julie Johnson, who live up in Bremerton, Washington. For those of you who watched several years ago, my epic interview with Jerry and Julie Johnson and Doug and Laurie Checketts, it was two couples, two sisters, and then two missionary companions who did this epic kind of seven plus hour Mormon Stories interview goes down as one of my favorites. Jerry and Julie and Doug and Laurie become dear friends. So they're, they're connected to this story because all these people live in the same kind of Bremerton, Washington ward. But a shout out to Jerry and Julie and all their family as well. But this is going to be an interview kind of in that same vein where we're interviewing multiple family members. And I'm really excited about that. I also am going to add that this is super interesting because Kelly is, is currently active duty military service. He serves in the US Navy and I won't get all his titles right kind of spontaneously, but he has commanded nuclear submarines. He is currently like the deputy commander of I think an entire naval fleet. He's going to introduce himself. I'm sure I'm getting it all wrong. Right.

Kelly Laing [00:02:21] No, it's totally fine, John. Yeah. So first and foremost, the most important thing is I am the husband of this beautiful woman that sits next to me, my lifelong best friend. I'M also the father of four children, two gay children, two straight children. I am a returned missionary, like you said. I've served in every colony you could imagine up till bishop. But more importantly, I'm now a lazy learner, an ex Mormon. I was a submarine. Spicy. That's right. I was a nuclear submarine captain. And right now I'm the Deputy Chief of Staff of Nuclear Weapons and Strategic Forces in the Pacific Northwest over all of the nuclear ballistic missile submarines. So there's a big disclaimer on that one that I'll go into here in a second. But at the end of the day, we're a family. We're just like anybody else. We have a life.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] That's awesome. Yeah. And we'll come back to a couple disclaimers up front. But. But, you know, we've never really done active military service as a topic on Mormon Stories podcast, so that's going to be a thing we're going to be talking about. Didn't you. You were, like, underwater for six or seven years of your life while married to Heather and raising young kids and that's.

Kelly Laing [00:03:31] That's correct.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:03:33] So, you know, hats off to heather, because over 20 right now, 25 years of military deployments and service, I've spent six and a half years of my life underwater. And then that does not include the other deployments and travels and everything else that comes with the job. So she's done a lot on her own. Yep, she's pretty awesome.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] So that's. That's its own cool part of the story. And then you've kind of already foreshadowed that they have at least two gay children. Cause you never know. What I've learned is you never know for sure. So at least two gay children, Britain and Mason, who have their own epic Mormon story, and it's the first time we've had two LGBTQ siblings, I think, interviewed at the same time on Mormon Stories podcast. But that's not rare. I have family. In my own family, there are several queer children, trans or queer children. I have extended family, same sort of situation. I think it's quite common in the LDS world to have multiple children where. Multiple, multiple. Lots of children. And within the multiple children, there are several LGBTQ children. And Britain has an epic, you know, Mormon story about how he was raised in the church, but then served a mission and struggled really hard on his mission as a gay Mormon missionary. And then that's its own important journey. And then, of course, what's it like to be a younger gay brother of an Older gay brother. All of you being raised Mormon and then to what extent do you have your own struggle, which was Mason and then what's it like to have an older brother in some ways take some bullets metaphorically and kind of pave the way. And then just kind of like what were the. You know, what's it like to have. I don't want to call you an alpha male, but let's just say kind of a military type a personality, military dad who's Mormon and you're trying to come out as gay, you know. And what are the family dynamics like there lots of cool, epic components to this story. And so that's what you're. That's what you're in store for today. How does that sound?

Heather Laing [00:05:41] Perfect.

Kelly Laing [00:05:42] I think it sounds, I think it's. That sums it up very nicely. You're absolutely right. John and I do fall into the alpha male normal category and that's something that I'm working on breaking as I work through life and all these issues.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] So we'll. I and I and Mason, I noticed one of your interview, one of your outlines. I noticed, you know, the topic of. Topic. What is masculinity? The topic of toxic masculinity. I, you know, I think that's important stuff for us all to be talking about. So really quickly, before we have. Before what we're going to do is we're going to interview Kelly and Heather first up until the point where kind of Mason and Britain's story begins. Then we're going to excuse them, have Mason and Britain come and tell their full story and then maybe at the end we'll bring all four of them back to do a bit of a discussion. But this is going to be one of those epic multi hour Mormon stories interviews. Really quickly, before we excuse you, Mason and Britton talking to the mics, is there anything you guys want to add at the intro or did we kind of get it? Lean as close to the mics as you can.

Guest 2 [00:06:41] Hi, Mason.

Kelly Laing [00:06:43] No, it sounded great to me.

Heather Laing [00:06:44] 10 out of 10. Amazing.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] Okay, so thanks for coming, everyone.

Guest 2 [00:06:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] All right, you guys are excused. And while you guys are walking back, we want to welcome as. As our amazing co host, Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara. How you doing?

Guest 2 [00:06:59] John? Hey, Laing family. Oh my gosh. Was that not like the, the twists and turns of that introduction? I mean, like we're going to cover so much today. I'm so excited.

Heather Laing [00:07:12] We are too.

Guest 2 [00:07:13] Oh my gosh.

Heather Laing [00:07:13] Nervous but excited.

Guest 2 [00:07:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] And Carrie, you just spent the weekend at Sunstone, right?

Guest 2 [00:07:17] I Did. It was so good.

Heather Laing [00:07:18] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:07:19] Yay. And I know it's probably a lot different this year since it was a lot of it was people online and in person and stuff, but Lindsay Hansen park puts on an amazing symposium, and I had a. I had a stellar time. Super fun.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] All right, well, thanks for coming in on Sunday.

Guest 2 [00:07:36] Right? Yeah. This is my worship right now. Like seeing a few people, I feel closer to my maker. I am so excited for. The elevated emotion is already rising. So let's get started.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] Well, it's great to have you. Okay, well, without any further ado, let's jump into this epic Mormon story. So, Kelly and Heather, where should we begin?

Heather and Kelly's Motivations for Sharing

Kelly Laing [00:07:59] I think we start with Heather.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Disclaimers.

Kelly Laing [00:08:02] Oh, that's a good one.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Yeah. Both of you have some disclaimers, right?

Heather Laing [00:08:05] Well, I.

Kelly Laing [00:08:06] Mine's a legal disclaimer, first off. So I am active duty Navy still. And so my views that are expressed here are my opinions and my opinions only. They do not reflect the opinions of the United States Navy or the Department of Defense. What I'm going to speak about are personal to my life. Now, with that interwoven, there will be several military experiences. Obviously, I can't reveal anything that's classified top secret, secret. But there will be things that I will talk about that are integral to our story, especially with the deployment of nuclear submarines and the life that we've lived through this military time. But I just want to be very clear up front. I do have permission from the Navy to do this. I've vetted this through legal means because at the same time, I've also received a little bit of retaliation as I've walked away from the church in this last year. So I just want to state that openly and publicly. And then the second thing is disclaimer is as our children are interviewed, we have given our consent to them to talk about anything that they want openly and honestly, and to have John ask them and talk to them about anything that they are willing to talk about. Any moral issues, sexual issues, any personal, private, whatever it may be. It is their story, and we give our consent. 100%.

Guest 2 [00:09:12] Beautiful.

Heather Laing [00:09:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] I love it. We are. We're big fans of informed consent here on Mormons Podcast. And then. And then we talked about this a little bit beforehand because there's going to be a heavy focus on active military service. You know, we're sensitive to always kind of trying to keep the conversation balanced between all the participants. But because some of this is going to really focus on Kelly's military service, there's likely Going to be an imbalance, at least in this part of the story, between what Kelly shares and what Heather shares. Heather, did you want to address that at all?

Heather Laing [00:09:47] Yeah, I would love to. In the past, I'd say six months, I've kind of come to a realization. I'm a naturally very shy person, and I. I don't usually share very often with people unless I really know them. And so I think when people look in on us and, like, just observe our relationship, that I've seen that people tend to maybe assume that Kelly is very domineering and very. He's one of the chick times. I'm subservient or whatever. All those nasty words I think there and I experience I've just had recently is somebody saying something like that that was close to me. And me. It was kind of shocked me and I felt very insulted that even though I'm not a sharer, I'm quiet. That somebody would think that I'm so shallow that I would just let my husband. And he's the only one that does things. So I just want to get that out there that it may be more heavy on Kelly, but that's my personality. I have my own opinions. I have my things, and I will share them when I fail to do so. But he's definitely not domineering. We always kind of joke that I'm the boss at home, so. But I just wanted to put that out there, too.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] Perfect.

Kelly Laing [00:10:57] I think it's important, too. We have a very informed consent relationship where we talk about everything openly. And it's one of those things where privately and personally, I take a ton of advice from her. And I wish everybody had Heather in their life to where they could have that kind of open, honest dialogue. And it's like I've told a lot of people, a true friend tells you what you need to hear, not necessarily what you want to hear. And Heather, she tells me what I need to hear, and she tells me often, but she tells me in a way that helps me want to be better.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] I love it. Okay, well, let's jump in then. And I'm just so grateful you guys and you guys flew your whole family here. I mean, you have other family here, but I'm just really grateful you'd fly all the way from Bremerton to do this interview.

Heather Laing [00:11:42] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:11:42] John, it is a pleasure to be here. And we would have broke China to come here. It's. Unfortunately, I have to work tomorrow, but it's one of those things where you and your work, Kara's work, And so many that went before us shout out to Julie and Jerry Johnson, who they'll come into the story. We're a pinnacle part of our story in our lives and helping us to understand some things. So it's one of those things where I would say a year ago, when we left and we'll get into that. There's no way I would have come onto Mormon stories. But the more I've learned and the more I've realized how much others helped me, we realized together that we needed to tell our story. What do you think about that?

Heather Laing [00:12:18] Yeah, I have loved this. I am so grateful for Mormon stories and other things like that. Because what it is, it's like it's a support group. It helps you to sometimes know that you're not crazy. You're not the only one feeling the way you feel. And it kind of confirms to you and helps you. It's just been such a big help to both of us.

Kelly Laing [00:12:41] The other last thing I'll put on to that is over the course of this last year, I'm a huge audiophile, listen to music. When I work out over the last year, the music's pretty much gone away and it's gone to podcasts. And so I've listened to almost every podcast you put out and many others. So thank you.

Guest 2 [00:12:56] Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] I think it's also useful to get up out front what our intentions are, because when you're an orthodox Mormon, it's like unless you don't talk publicly about the church and if you do, you only say nice things. And so you really can't be open and honest, let alone critical of the church from an orthodox Mormon's point of view without feeling like you hate the church or you want to tear it down or you want to take people out of the church. And there's always going to be extended family members and friends and leaders that are going to like, maybe be mentioned even not by name, and feel like, well, they're just bitter, they're just angry, they're just haters or they want to destroy everything. So do you guys want to talk about your intentions for why you're doing this interview up front? Just to kind of get that out of the way of why you're not doing it and why you are doing it?

Heather Laing [00:13:43] I'd say for me, the reason why I'm doing it is that it was so important to me. Even though I am shy and this is very nerve wracking and scary to me, I just, I just want to tell my own story. I just want To. I don't hate the church. I'm grateful for the values it taught me. I'm grateful for that. And I love my family and friends that are still members of the church, and I would never want to take any what is good for them away from them. But I wanted to share my story and the feelings I've had from living in that religion my whole life, and then the things that I've learned and. And how it's made me feel. And just to get it out there for, I guess, because I'm not usually vocal, I just want to let my story be known.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Yeah, tell your story. That's fair.

Kelly Laing [00:14:34] That is huge for me to have her tell her story, too, because of that perception that she talked about earlier. For me, it's everything that you just articulated. Where so many of the people that we've talked to that are still in the faith, they come to us and they talk to us. They don't want to know the story, they don't want to know the whys, they don't want to know the details. And there's generally labels that are placed upon you. The, oh, you want to sin or you just got tired, or you just, whatever it is, fill in the blank. But the truth of the matter is most people don't want to engage. They're still active because the blinders are on, because they assume that you've come across anti Mormon material. They assume. And therefore, by assuming, they want to bin you and they want to classify you and then push you away. This is our way of also putting our story out in a safe, safe place, which allows us to. Then we will post it and allow our family members, our friends to also then privately, which we know they will, and personally understand our story, whether it's now, whether it's a year from now, or whether it's 10 years from now. And so I think that's very important for us.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Yeah. There's probably also an LGBTQ advocacy component to this. Right?

Kelly Laing [00:15:42] Very big. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] Yeah, I'll speak to that.

Heather Laing [00:15:46] It's just really interesting to me when I've opened my aperture of. Of the world and thinking to

Kelly Laing [00:15:57] how

Heather Laing [00:15:57] close to my heart it is LGBTQ issues are. Especially you men are two boys. And I just want to share with the whole world how precious we all are and how we think and how the freedom that we should all have to love and to be who we want to be and how just innately, we're all just humans, we're all the same, and we all should be able to give that privilege to be who we are fully and have that, that time and that to grow and to learn and to make mistakes and then to pick up and keep going and not to be put in a box and say, this is where you need to be. Do not remove yourself from that box. I'm big on boxes lately and I do not like them. And I don't think anybody needs to be put in a box also.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] The stakes are high, right?

Heather Laing [00:16:45] Absolutely.

Kelly Laing [00:16:46] Oh, the stakes are very, very high. And we're not just talking emotions, we're talking lives.

Heather Laing [00:16:53] Sorry, I just wanted to share one quick story about when you said the stakes are high. Recently. We've had somebody in our previous stake where we live now and say some things and post some things and message us and our son and stuff. Some pretty inflammatory, very judgmental things about LGBTQ and religion and stuff. And very hurtful. And, and I'm usually quiet. Kelly's the one that engages. He says those things. And I just, I'm, I just, I don't usually engage, but I felt I needed to at least say something, even though I didn't think it was going to change her mind or her opinion. But I wanted her, at least to me, to say to her that the way she was acting, luckily for my son, he is in a great, he's in a place in his life right now where he can get over it, he can move on. He is in a place. But the way she is acting, there's going to be somebody that she interacts with that same way, and they're not going to be in that place that my son was in. And the damage that she could have done even with a life is so huge to be that way. And you could cause somebody to commit suicide. And that's a very, very real thing in acting and saying the things that she has said.

Kelly Laing [00:18:11] That old adage, you know, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. Couldn't be more wrong. The fact is everybody has human emotions and everybody has a life. And those comments dig deep. And depending on where somebody's at in a mental state, it can be not only life threatening, it can actually be what trips somebody to take that. And we'll get into that in our story, but with that individual, you know, we re engaged

Heather Laing [00:18:35] both.

Kelly Laing [00:18:36] My son reengaged with her and he was so kind and so loving. I reengaged. And at the end of the conversation, I simply left it as this. There is going to come a day because she has eight children, I believe, and I won't identify the person by name that one of your children, statistically, will be lgbtq, if not two, if not two. And when that day comes, I want you to know that your child is safe in our hearts and our homes and will be there ready to receive them and love them. And that's with no guile. We really mean that.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] And so the broader message is around LGBTQ advocacy is what?

Kelly Laing [00:19:11] Please, please, be kind. Be kind.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] Be careful.

Kelly Laing [00:19:15] Be careful, be kind.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] There's so much quiet, overbearing. Right, Right.

Heather Laing [00:19:20] We all have thoughts. We all. We all naturally, as humans, we make judgments and assumptions, and we think those. That's just who we are. We do that. That's how we navigate this world that we live in. But don't share them if you don't need to. There's so many things that you just keep it. You should keep in your head that you can have those. That's. That's part of being. But don't share them. Don't make those judgments that can hurt people like that.

Kelly Laing [00:19:43] Listen.

Heather Laing [00:19:43] Say them.

Kelly Laing [00:19:44] You did a TED Talk that I listened to years ago. You did it, and it talked about becoming an ally. I grew up in a society in an environment in the 80s and 90s where everything was homophobic, and especially inside the church. I couldn't have been more wrong. And it took some seminal events in my life to start to listen, to start to open my eyes as you talked about. And when I started to listen, when I started to understand and we talked together, we chose to become allies, even though we didn't necessarily know that our children were gay at the time, but choose to become an ally, even if you don't understand, because believe me, on the scale of, you know, gay to straight, if this is gay and this is straight, all right, my son's maybe here. I'm on the farther end of this, of the straight side. I don't understand it completely, but I understand the need to be loved. I understand them.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:20:39] And I love them.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] Yeah. Yeah. And probably the largest known factor for all the indicators of health of. Of risky drug use, of risky sexual behavior, and of suicide attempts.

Kelly Laing [00:20:54] The.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] The. Probably the largest determinant is family support, family acceptance. And so I think a larger goal we have here is to model mistakes, but also attempts at family acceptance so that we can prevent harm, future harm. Right?

Heather Laing [00:21:12] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Absolutely. And this is an. This is an example of a family that's made that transition from a family that didn't understand to a family that's working hard to be understanding. And we hope that that helps prevent further harm in the future with your family and with your loved ones. Fair.

Kelly Laing [00:21:28] That's absolutely fair.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] Okay, longest interview, longest introduction instead of disclaimers ever.

Heather Laing [00:21:35] So wordy.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] And now let's care. Anything you want to add?

Guest 2 [00:21:38] No. I thought everything you said was really beautiful and I hope people are like extra on the edge of their scenes because now we're going to get into everything.

Heather Laing [00:21:45] So that was really good.

Heather's Mormon Upbringing in Idaho Falls

John Dehlin [00:21:47] All right, well, let's jump in. Where do we start?

Kelly Laing [00:21:49] You want to start with where you grew up and family and stuff?

Heather Laing [00:21:53] Sure. All right, I'll just start. I always hated these introductions, like in college or whatever. Hi, I'm Heather. I like to read. So I grew up in Idaho Falls, Idaho, predominantly. We moved a few places before first grade, but the majority was in Idaho Falls, Idaho. I'm the oldest of four children. My dad, his profession was a meat cutter. He worked for the same company as a meat cutter for 30 years in Albertsons. And my mom was a stay at home mom. And I had a great childhood and I still have great parents that love me and we've always been members. I was born into the Mormon Church and I would have to say I don't know my upbringing. We definitely. I went to church every Sunday. I went to youth activities all throughout my dad being working, his schedule was always different and many Sundays he worked and so he wouldn't go with us to church. And as I got older, I kind of heard the whisperings of like people saying he was inactive or something. But that never. I never thought that in my mind because whenever he was home, he would go with us and he and my mom always got us there. And we didn't really have family evening or scripture study. We weren't that kind of family. But I was taught the values of that. I was taught, you know, all the basics and stuff and we lived it. We went to church. I wouldn't have dared. I was a very good girl that would not have like dared, like do something that, that out of that realm of Mormon dom, I guess is what I call. I don't know what I'm trying to think that my parents, they're like, they're not scriptorians or not anything like that, but they're good, good people. They were my family. Both parents were very service oriented. I grew up with my mom and dad. Like my grandparents lived close, both of us and both of them. And we would always go visit them. My. They were always doing things for my grandparents, helping them. Their siblings lived close and if they Needed something, they would always go help. They would serve people in our ward. Anybody need help. And then my dad worked like non members. Anything he would go out, help them with whatever they needed. And I was always used to that. At one time my parents as a joint couple, they home taught, visiting taught like 20 widows in our ward. We grew up in a ward with an older generation and so there were many, many older couples and then widows. And my parents just took over the 20 widows and would love them, serve them anything they needed, always every month. They were constant with them. And so. And they still to this day, they're constantly serving everybody around them. And so I grew up in, in that kind of atmosphere. Oh I do have an uncle in my dad's side. He's the young, youngest of six siblings and that was gay. And United Falls, Blackfoot, Idaho is where they're from.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] That's even more.

Heather Laing [00:25:27] Yeah. So and, but, and I look back on it now and it was just, it was what it was. I never really thought about it being. I mean I don't know if I even really exactly knew. Knew what it was when I was younger, what it meant. But. And, but he. So we did. But my dad never treated him different. My family members, it was just his brother and stuff. No, I never saw that. I never saw any like feelings of difference with any of my, my mom's side and dad's side. But so my uncle, he, he actually contracted AIDS and died around what year if you. It was in the 80s. So I'm trying to think what I remember my grandparents, he, he lived in Salt Lake. My uncle did, you know, moved to Salt Lake and that's where he lived. And then he got sick and my grandparents rented an apartment, went to his apartment in Salt Lake and lived with him for six months and took care of him while he really. Before he passed away, they. My. There was no. I never felt any judgment or any less than. And they were active members of the church. I never felt that. And so I grew up with that. So on my dad's side I'd say about half and half like active members. Half active, half not of their six children. And then my mom's side, same. There's six children and I'd say two counting my mom are active and the rest. And I grew up like that. So all my many aunts and uncles, they did not live the way that we did. You know, they drank or smoked or swore, you know, do all those things and, but we always had family reunions and always got together and there Was complete love and acceptance on my parents part for all their siblings. And so I was very family before beliefs.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] Man, that's so inspiring.

Heather Laing [00:27:17] I just felt, I feel like. Because I'm. I kind of look at myself more nuanced in the religion than some and I think that's where it came from is just family and love and over that kind of stuff, like it'll all be worked out. Like in my mind I always thought you can't. Family's family. So it's always. It's all going to be worked out in the end and because they're your family and you love them.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] So I love that.

Heather Laing [00:27:43] But.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] And I have no idea how that happens in freaking Idaho Falls.

Heather Laing [00:27:47] I know. Yeah. Blackfoot, Idaho Falls. Yeah, they were pretty amazing. They still are. My family is so beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] Okay, really quickly, like people probably don't have any idea what Idaho Falls is like and being a Mormon in Idaho Falls. And then I also, I do want to hear about kind of your high school years, your faith development, you know, did you do seminary? You know, anything you want to share about just being a Mormon teen and what, what, what people should think about when they think about growing up as a Mormon teen in Idaho falls. In the 80s, was it when you were a teenager?

Heather Laing [00:28:23] Yeah, 80s. 90s. I graduated in 90s.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] Okay.

Heather Laing [00:28:27] I would say more Idol Falls is definitely predominantly Mormon. Like 80, I'd say. Yeah, definitely.

Kelly Laing [00:28:35] Especially when we grew up.

Heather Laing [00:28:36] Yeah, especially then we lived like where we lived it was like a. Our ward was like a 4 by 4 block radius. So it was just like a tiny little space with different wards, different congregations. Yeah, it was constant. So in my high school I knew a few Mormons, I mean non Mormons and none were my close. I'd have to say. My sister had one close friend. She's a couple years younger than me. That wasn't. And that was rare. Right. Because it just was predominantly. That's what it was. And so it was just kind of a way of life around there.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] I'm guessing not a lot of people of color.

Heather Laing [00:29:15] No. I had one teacher in my high school and she was amazing. She was like an English teacher. I. I love to read and I took a novel class from her. Her children went there too. And there's. I had one.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] She was a person of color.

Heather Laing [00:29:29] Yes, she was. And then I had one person in my grade school. One. I know it's. It's like a whole non diverse, super white. I have to tell you a funny. Like, I don't know if it's A funny story, but. But, yeah, super. I grew up super white. We went to school in. In Utah. Kelly, when he joined the Navy, we. We drove. So he was already in Florida doing a school. I drove down with my. My parents drove me down to Pensacola, Florida. We were driving. I got. We got to Mississippi and we went into McDonald's and I. We look around and we were the only white people there. And I remember that was the first time anything is just like, oh, okay. And I mean, I didn't feel. I don't even remember my feelings. It was just like an observation that I made. And then, of course, we. Our military career. We were in the south for a lot of it. But yeah, definitely, we were not a diverse city state. My high school years, like I had said before, I was super shy, but I had good friends. We had a group of us in high school. There are seven of us, and we are still friends to this day. My spirituality. I went to seminary, but it was not like my poor kids who had to get up super early. It was release time. Seminaries integrated into the high school school schedule, walked across the street to go to my. It was like we. Their first, I think first sec. You know, first through six periods, depending which one it was.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] So how the church gets away with

Heather Laing [00:31:00] that, I have no clue.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] Like, especially not in Utah.

Heather Laing [00:31:04] So, yeah, absolutely. We. So it wasn't a struggle. It was fun. I had, you know, they made it. Seminary teachers made it fun. Everybody else did it too sort of thing. So I did seminary. I went to all my activities. I loved. I loved church activities. It was kind of a social life sort of thing. And I, you know, the boy that I liked was in my ward forever. Yeah, there wasn't one mother boy. Just, you know, it was just the whole. My whole world, my whole social construct was the church. And so. But like I said, my family was not, you know, I. Look how we raised our family. But it was not like scripture study every morning or every night. It wasn't. Neil Dancey family prayers. It wasn't family evening on Monday nights. We did things together and did stuff, but it wasn't strict like that. But I did all the, all the Mormon things. I did. I did everything. And it was my world.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] So any. Any instances of, like, shame or guilt in. In high school years. I always ask that just because it's such a predominant theme.

Heather Laing [00:32:13] I like, there isn't one that any that stands out to me. But I was a very good girl. Like, I wouldn't have.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] In quotes, you're saying I Hope you're saying that.

Kelly Laing [00:32:22] No.

Heather Laing [00:32:23] Yeah. Like, you know, that good by good, you know, and absolutely in quotes, like what they would, like, label as. Yeah, I. I listened to the lessons my parents didn't, like, preach, like, you know, wear modest clothes, wear things like that. But. But I just did. And I never thought about, like, being with a boy or doing any things like petting or anything like that. I was like, oh, that's. That's, you know, making out. I mean, we did make out, but, I mean, before Kelly. But anything past that, I just would never, like, any. Any having sex before marriage or anything like that. I just knew. No. That I couldn't do that and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Alcohol, drugs?

Heather Laing [00:33:06] No, not even. And the thing is, I look at my high school years, and I just wasn't, I guess, friends with the right people. I wouldn't have even known where to get, like, drugs or alcohol. Bran's laughing at me over there. I wouldn't have. I was so innocent. Super innocent. And I had never.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] No smoking, no drugs, no coffee, no tea.

Heather Laing [00:33:27] No. Definitely no coffee. I remember the one time this is how, like, so boring. We got the sample in the mail of, like, International Cafe, like, cappuccino, like, instant mix. And I love the smell of coffee. I always have loved that. I'm like, oh, that tastes so good. And I'm like, I wanted. I'm like, no, I will not do that. And I like throwing it away. I mean, just things like that. I was. My parents didn't drive it. I just was naturally, like, I was just gonna do that. I. This. My. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] So I have to make the joke. I was reading in your notes, and it was like, I didn't want to do any of the really bad things, like sex, you know, murder or coffee.

Heather Laing [00:34:11] I know. Really? I know, right? Like, those things that were drilled into your head growing up, you know, do not drink coffee, do not smoke, and then, you know, don't murder anybody either, so.

John Dehlin [00:34:26] And overall, I get the sense that you were super happy. Like, this was a happy, kind of idyllic Mormon upbringing for me.

Heather Laing [00:34:34] It was. My parents were super, like I said, low key. They weren't judgmental. They just kind of trusted. And, I mean, obviously I didn't ever break their trust because of just who I was, but they just trusted that I was just gonna do it. I was just gonna be okay. And they gave me that, and they did. They loved me. And so. And I always felt that love from them. So.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:34:56] Did you have, like, any spiritual experiences that you felt tied you to the Church as a teen.

Heather Laing [00:35:00] Do you know what? I didn't. Oh, I remember one time my mom. Okay. And I don't know if it's a spiritual experience because they didn't preach to me. But my mom would, like, do things by example, I guess. The one time she watched.

Kelly Laing [00:35:12] I remember the movie.

Heather Laing [00:35:13] It was like ghost.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] I remember that.

Heather Laing [00:35:15] And there was like this scene and I.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] The clay scene?

Heather Laing [00:35:19] Yes, the clay scene. And I remember she didn't really talk about this.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] Yes. She just. Pottery.

Heather Laing [00:35:25] Yeah. She had mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] She's like, Patrick Swayze's dead. Right? Patrick Swayze is dead.

Heather Laing [00:35:30] Who's the woman?

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Demi Moore. Demi Moore's the woman. She's like molding the clay and thinking about her.

Heather Laing [00:35:35] I don't even know if I've even actually. I've seen, like, bits of it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] But super erotic.

Heather Laing [00:35:40] Yeah. And so she had mentioned. And she doesn't usually. She's funny like that. So I must have had it in my head that she had mentioned, oh, this. This movie. I don't know if it's very good. And then so I went to friend's house in high school school and they were going to watch a movie. They're like, well, we're gonna watch Ghost. And I'm like, oh, I should not watch that movie. And I was super shy, like I said. But I said, I don't really think. I know. I don't really think I should watch that movie. And they're like, okay. Now I look back, I'm like, oh, my gosh. But I like. They're like, okay, so, like, I'm just gonna call my mom. And so I called her and she, like, came and got me. But. But just, like in passing, I would just listen and I'm like, oh, that's probably not good for me. And do it. I'm a natural do gooder. I guess she is. Oh, boy.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] Yeah. I remember that movie because it's the first movie I saw getting off my Mission.

Heather Laing [00:36:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] So I think it was 1990.

Heather Laing [00:36:38] Yeah. That would have been right.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Thinking the world has gone to hell. The world has become truly wicked because of Demi Moore and the clay.

Heather Laing [00:36:49] That's what my mom thought too.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] Swayze as a ghost is behind her. She's stroking the clay is very erotic. Oh, boy. And evil.

Heather Laing [00:36:58] So that really. I mean, I didn't. I didn't like, you know, they would talk about. Here's one thing they. You know, people talk about feeling the spirit and having it tell you. Like, you praying and like letting the spirit tell you a path. You should take or prompting you to do something. And I remember hearing those lessons and thinking, I wonder if there's something wrong with me. Like, you know, in passing, I wonder because I don't think I've ever had that. And I would say that to myself. I'm like, I don't know, am I doing something wrong? I'm doing what I'm supposed to, I think. But I thought there was something wrong with me. And then I'm a really good. Great at like thinking a thought that maybe makes me feel bad. And then I'm really good at being like and like pushing it down and forgetting it properly. So that's what I would do. I'd be like, no, I'm fine. And I like, push the thought down and I would move on. But yeah, but just things like that ever softening. But I wasn't like a super, like, people would like, cry. I'm not a crier. And so people would like testimony meetings, like, start crying. I'm like, am I supposed to be crying? And I would like question myself because I wasn't crying at things. Everybody else was. And. But I do feel things very intensely, but I just don't show it. It so much. I guess so. But I thought something was wrong with me because I didn't or I didn't feel the spirit the way people described it.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] So I relate to that.

Heather Laing [00:38:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Okay. Anything else you want to share before we jump to. To Kelly's intro

Heather Laing [00:38:32] that I can think

Kelly Laing [00:38:32] of while you look, I'm going to just add one point on her. She talked about her dad and her mom. I will just want to reemphasize through this whole process, her mom and dad have stayed consistent with that. I know it's hard on them, but that's a couple that has served and given to people beyond anything that could ever be expected. Her dad served as a bishop later on, years later on. And we'll talk about that and some of the critiques from my family about her family because they weren't as active or as goody Mormon as should have been or could have been.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] You're saying that in air quotes too.

Kelly Laing [00:39:09] Yeah. Yes, absolutely.

Heather Laing [00:39:12] With a little roll of the eyes.

Kelly Laing [00:39:13] Yes. Oh, no. A huge roll of the eyes.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] I mean, it's. It sounds like a model Mormon family just in terms of putting family over Mormonism. And if Mormonism is incorporated, it's the savoring, it's like the salt. But it's not. You're not living to be Mormon. You're living. And Mormonism informs how you're living, but it's putting people in lives and family first. And when that magic formula happens, it's a beautiful thing. I'm just going to admit that.

Heather Laing [00:39:42] And I feel like that's what I had.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] I love that.

Kelly Laing [00:39:45] Which is just opposite from what my family.

Kelly's Strict Religious Upbringing and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:39:47] Okay, so now it's time for you, Kelly.

Kelly Laing [00:39:50] Okay, so with that, I grew up in a very strict, very orthodox, extremely orthodox Mormon community and Mormon home. So I came from some Mormon stock, but most of it was not. My parents came from Wyoming. And it came from a situation where my grandfather, he was a cowboy, literally converted while he was a cowboy. My grandmother, she was extremely strict. My grandfather on my dad's side was the kindest, most just gentleman you'd know, but I don't think he was ever truly, completely tbm. I mean, we go to see my grandpa.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] What does TBM mean for those who

Kelly Laing [00:40:31] true believing Mormon or true blue Mormon, depending on who you're talking to. I mean, he would, we'd go. And he loved the Dallas Cowboys.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Yeah. Roger Stalbach.

Kelly Laing [00:40:39] That's exactly those years.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] Danny White.

Kelly Laing [00:40:42] But even more than Danny White and Roger Staubach, he loved the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Ooh, okay.

Kelly Laing [00:40:49] And my brothers and I would always laugh when the cheerleaders would come on and my grandpa would sit up and pay attention.

Heather Laing [00:40:54] Ooh.

Kelly Laing [00:40:55] Make a few comments here and there.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] And then that was almost like the equivalent of porn in those days. Pre Internet, right?

Kelly Laing [00:41:00] Totally. I mean, I think he had to go to a state president for that one. But my grandfather, John Laing was a God amongst mortals as far as just kindness. But he also lived in an environment where he couldn't speak up or say much and just kind of went along is what I truly believe in. A lot of my siblings believe the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] He couldn't speak out about what or if he might have.

Kelly Laing [00:41:25] I don't think that he was all in like everybody else in terms of buying it.

John Dehlin [00:41:29] All believing the Mormon narrative.

Kelly Laing [00:41:30] Exactly. Case in point. He was converted, you know, well, before my. They got married, him and my grandmother got married. And it was when my father was 12 years old as a new deacon. They're in Lovell, Wyoming. And all the boys, you know, it was after the priesthood meeting, all the boys are kind of standing around talking and they were one upping each other about, well, my dad's better because he can do this. My dad's stronger because he can do this. And then he says, my dad wants to jump in as a brand new deacon and says, oh yeah, well, my dad's better because he can chug a lug of beer faster than any of your dads can. And all the parents were standing right there and the bishop was standing next to my grandfather and my grandfather kind of looked back and that was the last beer we know of that he had until. Well, that was the last one we know he had. But a request later on that we'll talk about later.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] It has to be over the years that there have always been non believers that were in it that were acting the role.

Kelly Laing [00:42:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Physically and mentally out. I mean that has to. People aren't dumb 100 years ago just because they live 100 years ago or 50 years ago.

Kelly Laing [00:42:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:42:31] But we just. They were silent because it's be silent or you don't survive.

Kelly Laing [00:42:36] And I guess to that point they've

John Dehlin [00:42:38] always been with us.

Kelly Laing [00:42:38] Right, exactly. It was, it was on his deathbed and the person that was taking care of him was my mom, his daughter in law that he said, you know, the only thing I want in this world right now is a cold beer. And I had never, you know, that was years back, but I think now, dang, I wish I could have given him a cold beer.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] Yeah, right. But coming back, Joseph had beer, right?

Kelly Laing [00:42:59] That's right. Many times even. We'll get to that.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] We'll get to that.

Kelly Laing [00:43:05] But I did grow up in a very, very strong Mormon orthodox home. There were eight children, seven boys, one girl. I'm number five of eight. So I literally fall into middle child syndrome and. Which is. And Heather will contest this. I was the forgotten child. And Heather knows that makes me sad. I left stores, you know, from several times between the ages of 4 and 8. I remember one time I was 5, I left at Grand Central and we went shopping in the morning and I went wandering off just as some five year old did. And all of a sudden I found myself alone. And it wasn't until later I couldn't find my parents, my mom and my brothers and went looking and looking and the time passed and it passed and it got dark outside. And I remember my sister worked across the street at the movie theater. So I think it was about seven o' clock at night, so probably about eight hours. I hid inside the store looking for my mom and walked across the busy intersection to the movie theater because I knew my sister worked there and asked if my sister was working there. She wasn't. But fortunately some good people called my family and they came and picked me up. They didn't know I was gone. That was my childhood in essence,

John Dehlin [00:44:19] because they just couldn't keep track of eight kids.

Kelly Laing [00:44:22] I mean, and my mom was overwhelmed, especially seven boys. And we were okay. My father is one of. Has a very strong opinion and we're all kind of adventurous. I feel bad for my mom to this day. God bless her soul for raising seven boys and one girl. And my sister, she's not a weakling by any means. She's a very smart intellectual. She's registered nurse. She's an incredible woman. We've have had a falling out since, but that's part of a later part of the story. But growing up on her home, you know, my dad, he was a Marine.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Really?

Kelly Laing [00:44:55] He was.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] Okay.

Kelly Laing [00:44:56] He went and right after.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Are they called jarheads?

Kelly Laing [00:44:59] Jarheads, they were. And I was a jarhead for a little while.

John Dehlin [00:45:03] Was he enlisted?

Kelly Laing [00:45:04] He was officer.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] Oh, your dad.

Kelly Laing [00:45:06] Was my dad in Wyoming?

John Dehlin [00:45:08] No.

Kelly Laing [00:45:08] Well, they left Wyoming because right after he graduated high school, he wanted to become a pilot, and uncle kind of put this in on him. And so as he started looking into this idea and Vietnam spinning up, he actually went to Utah State, got his degree from Utah State, and then got into a program with Marine Corps where they picked him up as an officer. Graduated college, went to Officer Candidate school, went to flight school, and then he went and served in Vietnam. He actually flew the vice president around at the time. Vice President Agnew.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Spiro.

Kelly Laing [00:45:39] Spiro. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] No, no, no, that was just me trying to sound intelligent.

Kelly Laing [00:45:42] I think it's Agnew.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Yeah. Spiro Agnew. Yeah. Richard Nixon's vice president.

Kelly Laing [00:45:45] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:45:47] He, like I said, tour in Vietnam. My brother, that's the third oldest, he was born while my dad was in Vietnam, but very, very militaristic, loves the core. And even to this day, he is all about the core. And so that was seeing that. And if anybody knows a Marine Corps officer, they bring that not only to their business and their work, but they bring it home, too. My dad, definitely, we all knew he was a Marine his entire life, and we all knew who was in charge. My dad was in charge, and he was the absolute alpha dominant male.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] Okay.

Kelly Laing [00:46:24] But what's interesting is there's a lot about my father that I'll talk about, and he's still alive, but he ended up leaving the Marine Corps. Never served a mission. Yeah, My son just gave a gasp. He never served a mission, but he expected all of his boys to never served a mission and felt guilty for it. When he left the Marine Corps, he went and applied for the church Education system and became a seminary teacher for the seminaries. Really full time seminary teacher, got accepted. In fact, the person that actually set him apart and final interview was Boyd K. Packer, which, yes, get there.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] Okay.

Kelly Laing [00:47:05] So my father then became a seminary teacher. And his first place that he was stationed as a seminary teacher was in Rexburg, Idaho. And the church education system will move the seminary teachers around based on their needs, personalities, demographics. They do have a rotation. And so I grew up and I was born and raised, born in Rexburg, Idaho. We moved literally within hours of the flood, moved to Arco, Idaho. And the flood hit just after we got to Arco.

John Dehlin [00:47:31] For those who don't know what the

Kelly Laing [00:47:32] flood is, so there's the flood that the Teton Dam broke back in the 70s in Rexburg, Idaho, just above Rexburg, and flooded out the town. It was absolutely horrific what that flood did, but also what it did. It was really neat, the Mormon response that came up. Great, great stories that come out of that. But at the same time, you know, we had just moved to Arco, Idaho, and fortunately escaped that disaster, lived in Arco for a couple years. My dad taught seminary there. We moved to Pocatello. I grew up until I was just finishing sixth grade in Pocatello, Idaho. Once again, very orthodox Mormon household, where the rules were the rules. The line was the line. You do not speak against the prophet. You do not question the prophet. You read the scriptures, you pray before every meal. You go to church, you do not joke around in church. I remember the hand to the back of the head several times in the ring, you know, because my brothers and I would be sitting on the bench and we'd be laughing and snickering and poking each other back and forth. And my dad was very, very strict. But with strictness comes also the human nature to push back. And seven boys, we push back the stories.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] What do you mean?

Kelly Laing [00:48:43] So each one of us has our different level of degree of rebelliousness. I have two brothers that were pretty rebellious myself. I kind of was kind of in the middle. But one brother, he was. He drank all through junior high, high school, did the drugs, would have the sex, played football. Really had a hard time with the whole Mormon thing. He ended up going on a mission at one point in coming home, halfway through that mission, when I say coming home, he left the mission. His story is very key. I want to get to that one later. But he had the shenanigans and the antics that he pulled, they're epic. Some involvement with the law and things like that. But he's of all of our family and all the brothers and sisters, he's the one that has the most personality. And that brother, in fact, he won't mind that I mentioned his name. Dan. Dan is just larger than life. Lives in Tennessee now. He's had a cattle, you know, small cattle ranch that he's owned, manual labor, construction labor. He's foreman now. Does some incredible work, but one of the kindest hearts you'll never meet. But he has a rebellious streak in him and my father could not handle that rebellious streak. My next brother that was just next to him had kind of a rebellious streak too. But he was also the jock, he was the football star, the wrestling star stage. He had it all. In fact, all the girls wanted my brother Joe and those that will be listening to this, that know Joe and everybody, he's fine with me mentioning his name. They know that Joe had it all. But he also knows, people know that Joe and my dad did not get along. Joe, at the age of 16, was kicked out of the home by my father. Now my father will say, oh, no, he left voluntarily. No, he was kicked out at the age of 16 and went, lived with his football coach. Because if you're not going to abide by my rules, you don't have, you can't live under my roof.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] Strict.

Kelly Laing [00:50:41] Very, very.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] I mean, I was just noting that the a Marine background and then Rexburg, Idaho and ces, that's a lot of intense culture, extremely tense.

Kelly Laing [00:50:53] So, I mean, so those that understand the Ezra Taft Benson years, The Bruce R. McConkie years and the Neal A. Maxwell years, those were my father's eyes,

John Dehlin [00:51:01] describe a little bit about what that means.

Kelly Laing [00:51:03] So there were some very hard orthodox apostles throughout the years that just. You tow the letter. It's the letter of the law. In fact, my father, at one point when he and I had an argument later on in life, I was very upset about the fact that he was very harsh with the grandchildren and people and judgments and very judgmental. And he said, kelly, he goes, I have the doctrine. I know the doctrine. Mom has the charity. That's all we need. And my response back was, I'd rather be like, mom, I would rather have the charity. And what does the Book of Mormon say about charity never faileth? What never faileth? Charity never faileth. And in fact, if you're going to have one thing or another, the doctrine's not going to save you. It's the charity.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:51:50] And that's, you know, there's a lot of beautiful teachings in the Book of Mormon, though I do not believe that book anymore.

John Dehlin [00:51:57] But it's almost like. It sounds like in your family, it was kind of a good cop, bad cop culture where your mom was the good cop, your dad played the bad cop. And it might even be that the church might have even supported that type of polarity where there needs to be the. I mean, the Book of Mormon talks about this. There needs to be mercy and there needs to be justice.

Kelly Laing [00:52:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] And so it sounds like maybe your dad played the role of the. Of the. Boyd K. Packer, Bruce R. McConkey, justice. Your mom played the role of mercy, and then you guys were kind of caught in the middle. I'm not trying to project that.

Kelly Laing [00:52:29] No, that's. That's very, very accurate. Except for the fact that my mom was. She struggled a lot with depression growing up. I mean, as she raised us.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:52:38] I mean, eight kids. Dang. I don't know who.

John Dehlin [00:52:41] And a patriarchy and a, you know, strictness.

Heather Laing [00:52:43] And she had hormonal issues and stuff going on and just things.

Kelly Laing [00:52:49] Yeah, she had some severe hormonal issues. In fact, I remember people would always say, you know, because you go to church and everybody. You put on the good face at church. We get to church and people say, oh, your mom is Joanne Lange. Oh, she's the kindest, sweetest, most wonderful woman in the world. And I would look and go, my mom. Because at home she was also very strict, but in. But also her emotions would cycle all the time based on her emotions. Sometimes she'd be very loving, and sometimes she'd be very straight and very. I don't want to say she was bipolar, but some of those tendencies were there.

John Dehlin [00:53:20] It felt that way.

Kelly Laing [00:53:21] She did. And it wasn't until she had a hysterectomy when I was 16 that all of a sudden that saint that everybody saw, she really became 24 7. In fact, it's hard for me not to talk, to get emotions about her. She passed away several years ago, but there is not another woman alive that I've known that was as kind as charitable, this serving as giving, 100%. From the time I was 16 on, as my mom, in fact, 36 grandchildren and all of us will vehemently agree. The sun rose and set in my mom's backyard. She became the quintessential grandma, the model of charity. She became the person that really the church wants you to become. And in fact, I would tell people all the time, look, I may not know Jesus Christ, but I know my mom. And if Christ is anything like My mom then I know Jesus that she was at her funeral. The numbers that came out and the people and the stories that she served, it was amazing. But coming back, you know that very hard life growing up, it was very much guilt and shame ridden. I mean my father was. It was all about the shame. In fact if you say hey Dad, I feel like it was oh, it would cut you off. You don't need to feel like that. You shouldn't feel like that. And feelings didn't matter. It was what is the doctrine? What did I tell you? Nothing else mattered. Or my mom would listen, she'd bend the ear to you. And she had the charitable heart. So I mean I could write a

John Dehlin [00:55:03] doctrine and if some were to ask kind of what are the main, some of the touch points of doctrine, you know, what are some of like the pillars of doctrine as far as your dad and the orthodox Mormon way kind

Kelly Laing [00:55:14] of were the pillars of the doctrine. Definitely is Joseph Smith Absolutely. Is the prophet. Absolutely. You do not question the brethren. He would tell all the B H Roberts church history stories as he wrote them. The Mormon doctrine. Anything out of Mormon doctrine. Bruce Armaconki McConkey yeah, that correct. Bruce Armaconki's Mormon doctrine was you know as important as the Book of Mormon. Honestly it was those pillars Ezra Taft Benson and teaching that the blacks in the priesthood, you know the ERA was a bad thing. The Equal Rights Amendment very much against the things that were progressive and a very hard right conservative in everything he taught and did.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] So tell me if I'm right. Like 6000 year Earth, no death before the flood. Literal Adam and Eve as the first parents of the were, you know, Cain was cursed with dark skin like John Larsen talked about that blacks were less valiant in the pre existence and that's why they're black. That Lamanites were dark skinned because their ancestors were were evil. That women had the women's role was to stay in the home and to be the, you know, nurturers of the children. It's a father's job to provide. Patriarchy ruled supreme. Masturbating was, was evil. It led to homosexuality. That it was a perversion in the sight of God. The whole miracle forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball sort of mentality that sex was next to murder, that it'd be better to be brought home in a pine box than to come home from your mission without honor. Am I painting the type of Mormonism that you grew up in?

Kelly Laing [00:56:52] John that was actually very light. If that was what I grew up with, that would have been A light side.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] Really?

Kelly Laing [00:56:57] Really.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] So take it. What was the next level? Just.

Kelly Laing [00:57:01] He believed all of that and more. I mean, we would be taught, you know, the reason you were born into a Mormon home is because you were one of the chosen in the pre existence. You have a great destiny in calling. Your responsibility is, you know, fill in the brink and you know, you are going to be the one that brings back Jesus Christ. He goes, I don't know if I'm going to be alive, but I know that you guys.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] Oh yeah, the whole second coming.

Kelly Laing [00:57:22] Second coming. The apocalypse. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] Saturday's warrior. You're preserved in the last day to usher in Jesus's second coming.

Kelly Laing [00:57:30] Absolutely. The preaching of tithing and you know, home teaching is, you know, you do not miss any home teaching at all, 100% at all times. If you do not go to church, you know, you need to reprint. You fasted every Sunday, and it was a mandatory fast. I mean, even to the point that I remember sneaking down to the cellar, into the storage room and opening up cans of peaches. My brothers and I would be like wolfing down bottles of peaches on fast Sundays. We would be sneaking stuff left and right.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Did you have to stay in your church clothes all Sunday?

Kelly Laing [00:58:02] Oh, geez. It depends. It depended on where he was sitting with his I'm not doing good enough or you know, is the family having issues? If they were having issues, then we had had the rules got stricter.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] So you'd have to stay in Sunday clothes all Sunday. Exactly. You weren't at church.

Kelly Laing [00:58:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:58:16] Did you go out to eat on Sunday? Never. Did you watch TV on Sunday?

Kelly Laing [00:58:21] Lawrence Welk Osmonds. Yeah, Lawrence Welk Osmonds. What was the Omaha. The nature show? Mutual of Omaha. Wild Kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:58:32] Okay, so wholesome tv, right?

Kelly Laing [00:58:35] But never anything that was.

John Dehlin [00:58:38] What about rock music?

Heather Laing [00:58:39] Oh, was that the devil? In fact, I remember you telling me that he thought that it was of the devil.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] In fact.

Kelly Laing [00:58:44] Oh, I would never listen to the Beatles because the Beatles were satanic.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] What?

Kelly Laing [00:58:49] Oh, did you not know every one of them?

Heather Laing [00:58:52] I grew up on the Beatles. Every. I know more 60s music than Kelly does and he's a mute.

Kelly Laing [00:58:58] I'm an audiophile.

Heather Laing [00:58:59] Yeah, so?

Kelly Laing [00:59:00] And so that was one of those things when I met Heather and found out her dad adores the Beatles, knows everything about the Beatles.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Like, he's sketchy. She's from a sketchy family.

Kelly Laing [00:59:10] Exactly. So when I found out you like me even more, she must be bad. Naughty, but yeah. So rock and roll. No, in fact, the number of times Myself and my brothers had our tapes and CDs thrown out because we had

John Dehlin [00:59:25] rock music that was types of CDs and tapes. Oh, you name it, I care about music.

Kelly Laing [00:59:29] Oh, okay. So. So we had everything from Bon Jovi. You know, starting off with Bon Jovi to Dawkin to Van Halen and get up to Iron Maiden, which is definitely harder. Metallica. Oh, Metallica was definitely satanic, which makes me dad.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:59:43] Which makes me laugh because years later I played the harmonic version with Metallica playing him. Dad said, this is pretty dang good. Who is this? And I said, metallica. Oh, no, this is awful. This is horrible.

John Dehlin [00:59:54] But they would throw out your tapes.

Heather Laing [00:59:56] Oh, they would. Seriously?

John Dehlin [00:59:57] Literally.

Kelly Laing [00:59:57] They would literally throw them out. Burn them.

John Dehlin [00:59:59] Them.

Kelly Laing [00:59:59] My brother still is angry about that one. Very angry.

Heather Laing [01:00:03] They.

Kelly Laing [01:00:03] With anything that they would find that was not church approved, they would throw out, in fact, tank tops. Brothers would have tank tops. My mom would go in, dad would take them, they'd throw them out. If there was anything that was not church approved in the home on. Our rooms were searched regularly. They looked for porn. They looked for drugs.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] They looked for Playboy magazines before the Internet.

Kelly Laing [01:00:21] They looked for everything.

John Dehlin [01:00:22] Victorious Secrets magazines.

Kelly Laing [01:00:24] Oh, yeah. And Sears catalogs, they got. They were gone quick because, you know, there's lingerie. Oh, there's underwear in the Sears catalogs.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] That's awesome. So all those things so Mormon. Oh, what about caffeine? What about Coke? Oh, native beverages.

Kelly Laing [01:00:38] So it. There was a shift that took place,

John Dehlin [01:00:41] but early on, early on.

Kelly Laing [01:00:42] And, and the reason is my dad would every once I'll have a Diet Coke because my aunt, she worked at the Maddox Cafe up on Brimstone. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Brigham City.

Kelly Laing [01:00:51] In Brigham City. And so the Brethren would come through in Brigham City.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] The Brethren.

Kelly Laing [01:00:55] The Brother. Oh, you always referred to him as the Brethren. It was always deep respect for the Brother.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] Tom Perry.

Kelly Laing [01:01:01] Yes. Oh, and so when one of the prophets came through and had a dinner there one time and had a Diet Coke.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] What?

Kelly Laing [01:01:12] And the story leaked up the chain from my aunt to my dad, then all of a sudden, hey, if the prophets can do it, then it's okay.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:01:21] So then Diet Coke and Coke was okay.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] Okay.

Kelly Laing [01:01:24] But yeah, but definitely no coffee. I mean, nothing. It was. It was uber super straight.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] Okay. Okay.

Kelly Laing [01:01:30] Yeah. And as far as our movies. Oh, no, never rated our movies. In fact, PG13, we were not allowed most PG13s. I wasn't allowed to watch most TV shows. Friends was an absolute no. 3's company back in the day.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] Yeah, I remember that freeze company was John Ritter.

Kelly Laing [01:01:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] Thumbs down. It's because the guy was living with two girls.

Heather Laing [01:01:52] Yeah. Dang.

Kelly Laing [01:01:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Come and knock on our door. Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:01:56] And now I'm going back and trying to catch up on some of those things. But it was through and through as orthodox. And, you know, my father being a seminary teacher, it was even after he finished being a seminary teacher, everything was about the church. Church service. You were in the choir, you had to have a calling. You were, you know, in the. Your value and worth was based on what calling you had.

Heather Laing [01:02:16] Just last night we were talking to Kelly's brother and sister in law, and his brother had said, no, your sister in law, she was saying how whenever they come, Kelly's parents would come over or talk to Joe, Kelly's brother, he would always question, well, what calling do you have? First question, what are you doing? How are you serving the church? And Joe would say, maybe nursery or something. And he's just disapproval, like you, like. Yeah, a calling, a higher calling. Air quotes like, like, you know, bishopric or elders quorum president or something like that. That was seen as more of a status, like you were more righteous. You were doing what you're supposed to if you had a. Had a higher calling such as that in your thing. And so he was very judgmental of callings.

Kelly Laing [01:03:03] And as we moved around, he always had, you know, every word we moved into, first and foremost was put in as gospel. Talk to him, teacher. Oh, and he loved that calling because

John Dehlin [01:03:13] your dad, he could pontificate.

Kelly Laing [01:03:16] Look what I know.

Heather Laing [01:03:20] So we actually were in the same ward for quite a few years. And that's where we met, Kelly and I. Yeah. So I definitely. I knew his family and his mom and dad. And my parents have commented later on I think, in the years how just in Sunday school, how much they sit there and they're like, oh. Because if they were in a Sunday school class with him, or we later in our married years, if we went to Sunday school with them, we always knew that heaven helped that Sunday school teacher because we knew his hand was just waiting to correct. Exactly. Exactly. To correct all that was going on

John Dehlin [01:04:00] or add the additional.

Heather Laing [01:04:01] Oh, absolutely insufferable. Yes, yes, that's a great word.

Kelly Laing [01:04:06] He always had to be the one that had the greater light and knowledge. Well, the brethren said, or in this doctrine or in this book. And he would always. It was so uncomfortable. And in the military, we always moved around. And the few times that he would come and visit, it was always, oh,

Heather Laing [01:04:23] yeah, it's a great time. Had to go to the bathroom a lot.

Kelly Laing [01:04:26] And if. And if it was a woman that was the gospel doctor and teacher, God help her.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] Oh, wow.

Kelly Laing [01:04:32] It was. It was bad.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] All right.

Kelly Laing [01:04:34] And so he having that mentality. You know, when we did have family heal meetings and we were off and on, despite the orthodoxy, the family home meetings, it was always just strict doctrine. It was very little fun. Everything was just about the church.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] Very different than Heather's upbringing.

Kelly Laing [01:04:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:54] Right. Yes. It's kind of the worst of. More. I don't want to say the. I don't want to paint your. Are your parents alive?

Kelly Laing [01:05:00] My dad. My father is. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:02] Okay. We're working hard on him, and he's still alive.

Kelly Laing [01:05:05] Oh. And I'm fine with that. We've had. We've really had it out. And we do not speak to this day.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Oh, no.

Kelly Laing [01:05:11] And that will be part of the story later on. And I would love to have a relationship with my father. So Rick. And that's you. Everybody knows his name. If you want to have a relationship with me at some point in life, I would love to, but you need to have an open, honest, this conversation with me about all of it.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] I mean, just to be clear, the purpose isn't to back on your dad.

Kelly Laing [01:05:29] No.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] This is a Mormon story. Like. And this is. This is the Mormonism I was raised, and not by my family, but by all my church leaders, many of my church leaders. So I inherited this type of Mormonism because it's the. Those are my church leaders. And so it's important to be able to tell your story. So it's not the trash on your dad.

Kelly Laing [01:05:47] No.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] It's just to paint a picture for what.

Kelly Laing [01:05:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] Many of our Mormon experiences were like. And you deserve to be able to tell that story. And you can still love your dad or want the best friend.

Kelly Laing [01:05:56] And to my father's credit, I will tell you, he worked hard raising eight kids, providing for eight kids, you know, and. And what he did, hats off to him. It always will be. And I'll be grateful for.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] He was doing his best. And like we like to say, it's systems, not people. Right. So he was part of a system and doing the best that he could within the system, them.

Kelly Laing [01:06:16] And I don't know if I would have done as good as he did if I was in his shoes.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] Right, right.

Heather Laing [01:06:21] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:06:21] But when we know better, we do better, hopefully. Yes.

Church Culture Around Sexuality and Shame

John Dehlin [01:06:25] And then how was masturbation handled?

Kelly Laing [01:06:28] What's. What's that? No. So it's interesting because especially with seven

John Dehlin [01:06:33] young boys, you're Right.

Kelly Laing [01:06:35] Sex was not talked about in our home.

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Okay?

Kelly Laing [01:06:38] We were not taught about the birds and the bees. It was just one of these things you're supposed to know. And so growing up, I joke with Heather because when I went through the line in heaven, I went through the libido line three or four times. And so my sons are over there laughing. And we've had a. Believe me now, we talk about everything like you would not believe. But it was interesting because the first time I actually saw a Playboy, well, in kindergarten, there was a kid that flashed something up, but it was very quick. But I was. And I was 12 years old, and we were out riding dirt bikes up in the hills, and there was this old rundown shack, and we found inside the shack this box of old Playboys. And I remember I was with a couple guys, and we opened those up and looked at that, and I thought I had never seen anything in my life so beautiful. Like, oh, my goodness. Like, I had these feelings inside, and it was a different experience. And I could not believe how beautiful the female form was. But at the same time, you know, I knew how much the modesty and everything that they talked about, despite the fact they didn't talk birds and bees. Like, I knew that this was something my parents would not approve of. And so we left the box. But then we'd come back time to time, and then we found one or two slipping back in the home. But masturbation never started for a couple years, actually. And truthfully, because I didn't figure it out. Nobody talked about it, but I did figure it out, like most people do when you just don't talk about things. But a lot of times after that, we had moved and there were no Playboys. It just was there. But then when I remember in one deacon's cormorant that I was in just towards the end, one of the teachers started to talk about masturbation, how bad it was. And the bishops would always ask in center interviews, do you masturbate? And I had no freaking clue what it was. I'm like, no. No idea. Not knowing what it meant. And then when this leader, one leader kind of explained it, I thought. And then when he explained it was, you know, sexual sin was next to murder, and that we're literally killing Jesus every time we do this. I was just mortified inside, and I felt so horrible. And so I stopped. I literally. I stopped. And I would stop for five, six months at a time, and then I would slip. And then I would try, you know, go through the Process again and stop. But I never confessed to any leader until I was 15. And. No, I'm sorry. I was 16 and I had heard the first time in my life, I felt like I heard a talk in church where I felt the spirit. And when I felt that spirit, I thought, I want to change. I want to be better. And so. And I was very infrequent in doing it, but I was still doing it. And so I went and talked to the bishop, thinking I could keep it private. And when I talked to the bishop and got it all out, I thought, okay, confession, it's done. And then he said the words that'll haunt me forever. Now, you need to go tell your parents. And I was mortified because I had to go face my parents. And you have to tell them tonight when you go home. And I did. I went home and I told him. And I will never forget approaching my mom and dad that night and said, hey, mom, dad, can I talk? And we sat down to talk, and it took me a little bit to spit it out. And I said, mom, Dad, I just got back from the bishop, and I've had a little bit of a problem with masturbation. Looking for help. My mom just shook her head, said nothing. My dad said to me a phrase that I heard from him twice in my life. He looked at me and said, you Judas. You fucking Judas. I taught you better than that.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] He said the F word.

Kelly Laing [01:10:39] I've heard him say the F word twice in my life. That was one of them. And he guilted and shamed me and said, you're going to fix this. If you're going to serve a mission and become a righteous father and priesthood holder, you need to fix this.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] Holy moly.

Kelly Laing [01:10:57] And so we talked about how they were going to get me pajamas that tied up tight, you know, to make sure at night that no, they were going to talk to me often about it. They'll ask me every day, tight pajamas, why? Oh, so you didn't touch yourself. And so it was a less of a temptation making sure that there was no magazines or anything that was titillating in the house that we were very careful about. I mean, when commercials came on that had anything to. That would. Anything that would have any sort of female form, my mom and dad would always change it immediately. And that hyper focus on getting any pushing away anything sexual out of the home did just the opposite for those boys.

John Dehlin [01:11:36] And you.

Kelly Laing [01:11:37] Yes, and me. And I include myself as that. And so I went through the process of, you know, this is the Markey

John Dehlin [01:11:46] by the way, there's a whole Markey Peterson memo on how to deal with masturbation that includes like tying your hands to the bedposts at night and sleeping with your hand. You know, the whole tight fitting versus loose fitting, what you do in the bathroom and what you don't do in the bathroom. Like there's a whole memo, we should find it included in the show notes that Mark Peterson the apostle tried to create, which has wreaked a lot of havoc on a lot of Mormon boys.

Kelly Laing [01:12:12] Absolutely right. And I've read that since. And that those same conversations took place where my father even said, hey, if we need to tie your hands to the bedpost, we will. That will help you out, you know, but keep your hands above the blankets, don't put your hands below the blankets. All those types of things.

John Dehlin [01:12:27] What does that do to a boy?

Kelly Laing [01:12:29] Well, the next natural thing is you have the nocturnal emissions or AKA wet dreams, which no one ever talked to me about. And so we go for a period of time and I don't do it. But of course west starts the nocturnal emissions. So when it happens, you know, at first you're like confused and like, what's going on here? That was a great dream, man. I've never done that in real life. How did I dream that? But I remember, you know, being ashamed and feeling ashamed that that even happened. Do I need to confess this to the bishop? And so, but not having anybody to talk to, I just kept it quiet. But I remember one night it was really bad and I woke up and you know, you got semen all over you. And so I grabbed a shirt, I wiped myself off and cleaned myself off and I wadded it up and I was in the basement. I stuck it up in the corner of the closet it and thinking, okay, I'll just take care of it later. Well, I'm 16 years old. Of course I'm not going to remember that. So I come home one day and it's a Saturday and I'm up in the living room and all of a sudden I hear Kelly, my father, screaming my name from the basement. I'm like, oh no. And I go running downstairs and my father standing there in my room with that shirt. What the hell is this? We talked about this. How could you?

John Dehlin [01:13:57] How could you?

Kelly Laing [01:14:00] And just guilted the living shit out of me. So disappointed. You're going to go talk to the bishop.

John Dehlin [01:14:08] That was a wet dream.

Kelly Laing [01:14:08] It was. And I tried explaining to him dad, I didn't it but he wouldn't believe me. And so Part of me said, you know, what if I'm going to get blamed for, I might as well. And so I went back and forth and there were times, you know, and I really was kind of this back and forth child of do I or don't I? And I wouldn't call myself by any measures of imagination the all in goody two shoes teenager. Definitely not. I mean, I never drank, I never smoke, you know, because in my mind the way we're taught is okay, on the order of sins, there's murder, there's drinking, there's smoking, drugs are up in there and there's sexual sins right down below smoking and drinking. So in my mind it was like, well, as long as you don't smoke and drink, you can still make it in the social kingdom and of course not have sex, which gets my patriarchal blessing in a second. And so I decided, you know, I really try not to. And I really tried not to and didn't for a long time. But every once in a while would drop, drop in and out. But I'll never forget the feeling and that guilt and the shame of that. And I know that some of my brothers went through the same thing and that same guilting, that same shaming, the emotional abuse with that guilty and shaming, which inadvertent as it was, I'm sure because of his upbringing and how he was taught from the church was very real and it's very damaging. And I think that has shaped a lot of my personality as I went into adulthood.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] I'm so sorry.

Kelly Laing [01:15:42] Thank you. I will tell you, I think it's part of my pieces as far as the other sexual pieces. And I'm very open about this and I've talked to my boys all about this. When I got married to Heather, I was a virgin, but I sure did have some other sexual experiences with girls where petting along the way. But the reason I never had sex, even though I wanted to along the ways at times before I met Heather, was because I truly believe that patriarchal blessing that I got when I was 12 years old. It was kind of these things where all three, three of the boys got their patriarchal blessings all the same time. I was 12, Joe was 14, Dan was 16. And we went in and we sat down and the patriarch interviews you and what's your hopes, dreams, desires and he takes notes and everything. And I remember at the time wanted to be in the milit and a jet pilot or a nuclear engineer. And I talked about all my hopes and wanting to be married and mission and then we had our patriarchal blessing. And magically, my patriarchal blessing matches almost everything I said. Weird.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] Everything you had told the patriarch beforehand.

Kelly Laing [01:16:50] Right. But one of the lines in there that is very key is it said that you will marry a wise young virgin. That part always stuck out to me. And that line prevented me from ever having sex because that middle child, that lost child syndrome, came into factor because I remember telling a couple people at 16, and Heather remembers this, too. There's nothing I wanted more in life as a teenager than to find somebody later on that would love me as much as I love them. That was a very huge part of my drive in life. Not just the physical side, but the true emotional, mental, physical, complete immersion. And somebody that would want me, love me, care for me as much as I cared and love them. And I knew that if I found somebody that. Like that if I had sex with them, my patriarchal blessings said I wouldn't marry him, and so I wouldn't have sex.

Heather Laing [01:17:50] So we didn't.

Kelly Laing [01:17:51] We didn't.

John Dehlin [01:17:52] And Heather, you fulfilled the prophecy.

Heather Laing [01:17:54] I sure did. I don't know how wise I was, but I was a virgin.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] And, you know, I think about this a lot. Sometimes I have, like, Christian or even believing Jewish listeners that are like, John, you really harp on this masturbation sexuality thing. Sex is harmful to many teens and young adults. It's good that the church is strict about these things. Even if there's a lot of guilt and shame, there's a lot of bad about STIs and unwanted pregnancies and. And that. That sexual behavior before adulthood can be problematic. And so, you know, I guess we could have this whole conversation about whether it's truly harmful or not, that. That the church is serious about these things, because is it terrible that you guys were married as virgins or is it. Is there good things about it? You know, and we don't need to get into that now, but.

Heather Laing [01:18:47] But I would just like to mention one thing, like, along those lines, I've definitely thought about this a lot lately, and I think, yes, there are those safety concerns. And so if you want to look at it from that view, the principal is just like, wait, don't do all this. Don't, and for later. But I feel that it can be done a different way because the shame behind the way that the Mormon Church teaches that, I think it's much more harmful than just. Than another way. I think you can teach safety and you can teach the reality of life, consent, and all those good things that are very Realistic and good because people are going to make their choices no matter what. And you can teach those. But the way that it's taught, I feel is very harmful because of the shame of it. And I do not. It hurts the psyche and it hurts the life later on. I feel like for me, like it didn't internalize it so much, but definitely the way I was taught, I was very good. It, it created, I think after our marriage, it created differently. A barrier to intimate relations. Yeah. Healthy, healthy sexual relations to just suddenly change and like, oh, this is great now and wonderful and, and stuff. So I, I don't think it's a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] How about for you, Kelly? Was it harmful, do you think?

Kelly Laing [01:20:04] I do. I think it's very harmful. And the reason is, is because even though when we got married, I was all about, oh, I could finally have sex and it was great, there was always that guilt piece that was in the back of my head. And especially associated.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] Right. Associated all the negativity for the years of negative associations.

Kelly Laing [01:20:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] With sexual.

Kelly Laing [01:20:22] And I was always questioning my head, is this something that she truly wants? Which is not bad question, you know, because I want her to consent to a sexual relationship whenever we have it, because that's part of our relationship and it should never be one way or the other. But at the same time, we have known so many members of the church and as I've served in callings throughout the years, the number of marriages that we've dealt with where the stigma of sexual sex is bad, bad, bad, bad. And then all of a sudden you get married and it's good. That transitions over into the marriage with so many LDS couples and the sexual relationship they have is horrible. And there's a saying that I heard several years ago that ironic enough, my mom told me, she said 5% of a good marriage. Let me back up. 95% of a bad marriage is a bad sex life. 5% of a good marriage is a good sex life. Meaning if the sex life is good between you, it becomes almost a non issue. There's so much else part of the marriage and marriage isn't about sex. It's just one wonderful aspect of it.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] But if it's bad.

Kelly Laing [01:21:27] But if it's bad, and we've seen so many marriages ripped apart over that bad relationship, the whole thing and. Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:34] And we, we've talked a lot about LGBT youth suicide, and that's a real thing. There is a whole nother, I'll say epidemic of, Of Mormon youth that are either depressed or super anxious and Or Even suicidal. And I, I believe that there have been actual completed, successful suicides from hyper conscientious Mormon youth that just have not been able to stop up masturbating and then just all the guilt and compounded family shame and church shame. And do you get sent home from your mission early or not? Or do you get to go on a mission or not? Do you get kicked out of BYU or not? All that stuff can wreak havoc even on heterosexual Mormon youth lives, let alone gay and LGBTQ youth as well. So it's a serious thing. That's why we talk about it. Not because we're sex obsessed, but because it's a real, it's a, it's a real epidemic of anxiety and depression and sometimes suicidality. And that's why we always talk about it. And also just because I believe that the Mormon church business model is tied to shame. Because if you don't feel shame, why do you need Jesus in the atonement and your bishop in the church? And so the church has to instill shame to be able to bind people with their guilt and shame to a pattern, a relationship of dependency with priesthood, with leaders, and with the church overall.

Kelly Laing [01:22:59] Exactly, absolutely. And when you look at the statistics of it too, where depending on which survey you're looking at, you know, 96, 98% of young men do, and there's upwards of 2/3 to 3/4 of the females at some point in their teenage years will in the church. So all these young men that are passing the sacrament either are or have been, but yet the stigma.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] Yep. All right, so we covered that.

Kelly Laing [01:23:29] So growing up, it was very different dichotomies. And so we moved. My family moved all over. My dad finally left teaching seminary, couldn't support eight kids on the seminary teacher salary. And so we ended up getting a job with the different technological companies and then working, ended up working for the government for Idaho National Laboratories in Idaho Falls and where he could provide for the family. But even still, with eight kids, eight mouths to feed, we did not have a lot. In fact, I would still say we were dirt poor in comparison to a lot of the people that lived around us that we went to high school with. And that definitely had a weight on me. But I remember moving in to the 11th Ward. We moved on to 12th Street. And Heather lived on 11th Street. Oh no, just the opposite 3rd Ward. I missed my numbers in Idaho Falls. And her parents lived on 12th Street. I lived down 11th Street. And I remember going there the first time, I was 16 years old. We always Got to church early because that's what you got to do. You can't be late for church. And we were sitting there in the pew, and I looked over. Church had already started. And what I found out later was the pattern. The perks came strolling in.

Heather Laing [01:24:41] We definitely weren't early.

John Dehlin [01:24:42] That's your maiden name.

Heather Laing [01:24:43] Yes, Perk. Perks.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] Okay, Perks.

Kelly Laing [01:24:46] So the Perks came strolling in, and I remember seeing Gloria, her mom, come in, and Heather was right in behind a toe. And, oh, she was angry. She had that just mad teenage face. But she had this long, gorgeous hair, red dress, just absolutely beautiful. Beautiful girl. And I was. And I was immediately smitten. And I thought, dang, we moved into the right ward. My father was definitely inspired. But come to find out, she was a little angry that day. Her mom and had her. Had a little bit of a fight before church.

Heather Laing [01:25:21] Yeah. Mornings before church were never happy getting everybody ready for church.

Kelly Laing [01:25:28] But we. So that's where we. Our introduction came, because we went after sacramenting, went into Sunday school.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] Who.

Kelly Laing [01:25:35] Her mom was our Sunday school teacher. And that's where I got to meet Heather for the first time. The shy girl with long hair.

Heather Laing [01:25:41] Yeah. I don't know. Did I even talk?

Kelly Laing [01:25:43] Well, I tried to talk with you.

Heather Laing [01:25:44] I know you probably did.

Guest 2 [01:25:45] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:25:46] And that became a pattern. I even flirt with her, and she was shy, and so I would think that she didn't really like me or give me any cutes back. But we became friends. And her mom was our Sunday school teacher.

Heather Laing [01:25:58] Kelly's very persistent. It's a good thing, especially with me.

Kelly Laing [01:26:04] And her mom was the best Sunday school teacher I ever had. Not only because she'd always bring treats and cookies, Rice Krispies treats, things like that. But she really loved us. She loved every one of those kids, and they all loved her. And she was not a scriptorian, but what she brought was love and kindness. And I always felt comfortable in there, and I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:26:25] Yeah.

Heather Laing [01:26:27] Beautiful you. Yeah. I remember meeting you. You were new. We didn't get many our. We grew up in a very old ward. And so I was probably a only girl my age for years and years and years. There's some older, some younger, but so there weren't that many youth. And so to have a family move in with youth, especially like, boys. Wonderful. So you're very novel. Thank you.

Kelly Laing [01:26:54] It was.

Heather Laing [01:26:54] Thank you.

Kelly Laing [01:26:55] It was a lot of fun. And so that's where we started meeting, but not getting any signs back. And Heather knows I always would ask girls on dates and I would. She wasn't actually 15 when I moved in, so she wasn't of dating age yet. So I couldn't ask her out on dates. And so I ended up dating different girls at the school and getting a girlfriend. And that girl will probably end up watching this Mormon story. We still have contact with her, and she's still a very lovely person. Very much a tbm. We even had a conversation lately about this, knowing the fact that I left the church, got to be very close with this girl. And she was somebody that I would still say to this day if I was. People are asked, how many people have you loved in your life, girls? I'd say, there's two. And that was probably one of only two that I truly, truly loved. Not anything in comparison to Heather.

Heather Laing [01:27:48] Thank you for the disclaimer.

Kelly Laing [01:27:50] But I also. There was also. And I don't want to disclose her story. Name. Will not say her name. There was some physical relationship there. And when I started to really find my testimony and there was that physical relationship going, and I couldn't break free from that. And she couldn't break free from that.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] Couldn't keep your hands off each other.

Kelly Laing [01:28:10] That's right. I remember going to a youth conference, and it was. I went to this youth conference and it was where I was. Just started reading the Book of Mormon. And I said, if I'm gonna. I need to really understand this book. I had gotten into Jacob, chapter five. And Jacob, chapter five, the allegory, the Olive Tree, weird enough, was where I got my testimony, the Book of Mormon. And because I felt like I need to go on a mission. And I went to this youth conference and this youth conference. I was made one of the youth leaders. Ironic enough with Heather. So we were kind of the Mon pa. It wasn't a trek, but it was kind of this old Rick's College youth camp.

Heather Laing [01:28:53] Badger Creek.

Kelly Laing [01:28:54] Badger Creek. And we had a blast there that week. And we laughed and we played and pushed you out of the canoe and

Heather Laing [01:29:02] wasn't happy about that.

Kelly Laing [01:29:03] No, don't get Heather wet.

Heather Laing [01:29:07] I still like to.

Kelly Laing [01:29:07] We had a blast. But I remember we were at this climbing wall and just laughing. It was towards the end of the week and it was right at the end of the wall. Everybody else went up the climbing wall, looked over, and the eyes kind of caught. And I realized, dang, I like you more than just a friend. And I knew it was just. It was an intense feeling, like if I was going to say I was going to feel the spirit at some point in my life, I felt it that day, and that changed me that night. And we went to a fireside that night, and I gave her my jacket, and we sat and we held hands.

Heather Laing [01:29:52] It was. I. Like, I did not know how to act with boys. I was so shy. I know I keep saying that, but Kelly is very good at conversations, and he's very good at just making you feel comfortable and loved and, like, you're worthy, you're worth something, you're cool and stuff. And so it was like my first conversations I really had with a boy, a guy. And it was awesome. I was on cloud nine.

Kelly Laing [01:30:22] And I was, too. And I remember going back and immediately breaking up with that girl because I realized one. Because I felt the spirit there at that camp. And I also, too, decided, I want to go on a mission. I can't keep doing this. And I knew that I needed to break free. And so I really jumped into my TBM days at that point. And Heather and I started dating. And we started dating very frequently, and I would pick her up for school in the mornings. We were always together. Everybody knew it was Heather and Kelly, and we. You did not see us apart very often.

Heather Laing [01:30:58] No, no. Your whole senior year, we were together.

Kelly Laing [01:31:02] Yeah. And I will say I was very scared of her. Her dad. Her dad's quiet like she. She was.

Heather Laing [01:31:07] He is very quiet. He's done. He's a man of little words, but

Kelly Laing [01:31:11] he's not a mean man. Just the opposite. But I also went off the judgment. So my father was very judgmental of her dad because he wasn't always coming to church, didn't make a lot of money, he was a meat cutter, didn't have a degree, didn't serve in the callings. And so I always heard comments about her dad, and it was hurtful. And I remember the day that I broke up with that one girl and I started going out with Heather. Now, let me remind you, I was absolutely just 100% just head over heels for Heather. My father found out. He goes, why did you break up? And he said her name with so and so to go out with Heather. The other girl is so much prettier.

John Dehlin [01:31:51] Your dad said that?

Kelly Laing [01:31:52] Yes.

Heather Laing [01:31:54] He was telling me this until not very long ago. Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:31:57] I always. I was always angry inside that my father would say that, because that also told. Taught me that he saw the superficial, not what was in here. And I've realized that over the years. To him, everything was about appearances. Things had to look good. And it was a perfectionism that he passed on to me and my boys. Will be able to talk about that in their interview. That perfectionism ran rampant throughout my entire life. And one of the best things about leaving the church is being able to leave that perfectionism. He didn't see the perfection that I had just gotten to my life with Heather. He saw a superficial perfectionism out of looks at somebody that he thought was more attractive.

Heather Laing [01:32:45] Regardless, I don't think he's so hot either.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] What was that, honey?

Heather Laing [01:32:50] I said, oh, I don't think he's so hot either.

Kelly Laing [01:32:56] She's got a fire in her for sure. But we dated and we were inseparable. I mean, we had some of those magical first, second, third, and fourth.

Heather Laing [01:33:04] Kelly's very creative and fun, and he has a lot of energy, and. And so we had. We had a good time. And he is a great romantic, and he made. Yeah, he just.

Kelly Laing [01:33:17] We had very. We had a lot of very romantic dates. I will say we dated that entire time. And I went in. I tried to kiss her. I remember in the fall of my senior year. Oh, it's just coming out. Yes, it is fall of our senior year. I remember dropping her off at the house, and I walked her to her door, and I went in, and it was cold, and I went in for a kiss. And I remember she's looked up at me and. And as I went in for the kiss, it was. Head went to the side.

John Dehlin [01:33:44] She dodged.

Kelly Laing [01:33:44] Oh, she totally dodged me. And so I. Okay, I'm gonna respect your boundaries. And I waited maybe six weeks. I tried again and again. It was a dodge. Oh, I remember. And I'm an idiot. And I tried again probably a couple months later and got another dodge. But at that point, I thought. I said, oh, you know what? She's not comfortable with that. We held hands. We had snuggles. She wasn't comfortable with that. So I'm going to respect that. And it wasn't until May, just before I graduated and went to college, She's a year younger than me, that we went on a date. She drove. She planned the date. And we went and we sat in front of the temple. Idaho Falls Temple. It was her dad's truck. Carol, if you're listening to this. Yes, the first kiss was in your truck.

Heather Laing [01:34:36] He'd respect that.

Kelly Laing [01:34:37] He would. And we were sitting there talking and laughing. It was kind of this little silence, too. And I was holding her in my arms, and she was leaning back against me, and she looked back and put her head up and her face up, and it would just kind of happen. And she kissed me, and I Thought, whoa, the world has just changed. And.

John Dehlin [01:34:59] And,

Kelly Laing [01:35:01] you know, the kissing began. We would make out. When I say make out, it would just be kissing. French kissing came later on, but there was nothing. No petting, anything. Even though I probably would have if there were boundaries that were dropped. But thank goodness she was the one that helped me fulfill that patriarchal blessing.

John Dehlin [01:35:17] And that's a Mormon girl's role.

Heather Laing [01:35:19] Yeah. And you know what? I look back at it, and honestly, I just didn't know how. I'm the oldest of love of the kids, and I didn't really. I. Nobody ever, like, talked to me. My friends didn't really, you know, they weren't making out with their boyfriends or kissing, and my mom never. So I'm like, I don't even know what to do. I don't even, like. I mean, I guess it's supposed to come naturally. I didn't feel like it did to me, but I just. I think I wanted to. I just didn't know how to go about it. And so.

Meeting at the Merchant Marine Academy

Kelly Laing [01:35:54] But I will tell you, that was probably one of those things that endeared me to her.

Heather Laing [01:36:00] Oh, boy.

Kelly Laing [01:36:02] But Heather knew that she had to keep you cleaned. She did, but she knew she fulfilled that dream that I had somebody that would love me as much as I love them. And dang, I felt loved by Heather Perks. And I held on. And so I went to college for a year where. So my first year of college, I went. You're going to laugh at this. I didn't. My patriarchal blessing said that I needed to go, that I needed to serve in the military. And so I did everything to get.

John Dehlin [01:36:31] Because you told him you wanted to serve. Exactly.

Heather Laing [01:36:34] Well, yeah,

Kelly Laing [01:36:37] but I followed. I've got to serve. I've got to serve. And, you know, my father said, oh, you do not want to be enlisted. Heather's dad was enlisted. And so another reason why my father looked down on him. You need to be an officer. Well, okay, so I don't need to be an officer. So I work my butt off to get good grades all through my. My school to get into the academy.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] So which one?

Kelly Laing [01:36:55] I applied to all of them, and

John Dehlin [01:36:57] I put, like, Air Force.

Kelly Laing [01:36:58] Air Force, Army, Navy, and Merchant Marine Academy.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] Okay.

Kelly Laing [01:37:00] And I. I wanted to be a pilot, but I also wanted. My goal was to be a pilot. And I said, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go to the Naval Academy.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] I applied, but I could be a Navy pilot. Right, but you applied John McCain.

Kelly Laing [01:37:11] Right? Is exactly right. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:37:13] Okay.

Kelly Laing [01:37:13] But if you. Oh, that's interesting, because I was at his funeral. Oh, that's completely sidebar.

John Dehlin [01:37:19] Oh, wow.

Kelly Laing [01:37:20] One of the best funerals I've been at. I wanted to serve, but I wanted to fly because I always said, I want to be a pilot or I want to be a nuclear engineer, but I really wanted to serve. So I went and applied to all the academies, and I remember praying and fighting, you know, God, is this what I'm supposed to do? And getting that confirmation, yes, you will go to the academy. What I realize now is confirmation bias, but that's a different topic. But in pushing for all of that, I went and I got appointments from senators and congressmen, but I got appointments not to the Naval Academy. I got appointments to West Point and to Kings Point army and the Merchant Marine Academy. Those are the. Those were what I got.

John Dehlin [01:38:06] Who are the senators?

Kelly Laing [01:38:07] The senators. One was Senator Larry Craig.

John Dehlin [01:38:09] Idaho.

Kelly Laing [01:38:10] Yeah, Idaho. And it doesn't matter. Yeah. And so I got the nominations. You get nominations first, and then you apply to the academy for appointments. And it's very, very competitive. In fact, Naval Academy, one out of every 18 that actually gets a nomination will actually get an appointment.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] Oh, wow.

Kelly Laing [01:38:25] Yeah. And so just to get a nomination is extremely competitive. And so these academies are hyper, hyper competitive. And they don't just look at grades. They look at the entire person, which is. Right. And, you know, having worked at the academy and I'll get to that later on, is very critical that you do. So I ended up getting appointments to both West Point and Kings Point. I didn't want to go army, so I said, you know, I'll go Kings Point Merchant Marine Academy, because I prayed about it. And that's the answer I got. So I went to the Kings Point Merchant Marine Academy for a year, which is where? In Long Island, New York.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] Okay.

Kelly Laing [01:38:58] Phenomenal. In fact, a friend of mine just got an appointment there that's in our home, was in our old ward in Washington.

John Dehlin [01:39:06] I don't hear about it as much as Annapolis or West Point or the Air Force Academy.

Kelly Laing [01:39:11] No, you don't. It takes the same requirements to get in. It used to fall under the Department of Transportation. It now falls under the DOD Department of Defense, because after 9, 11, they brought all of those entities together, and I could get in all the Title 10, Title 50, Title 16, and doctrine. I know, but there's reasons why they brought that in. Yeah. And so it actually helps protect that, too. The Merchant Marine is very critical to our nation. But out of the Merchant Marine Academy, you can commission Army, Navy, Air Force Marines or the best deal, you go into the Merchant Marine Service, which is you serve in US Flag merchant ships or maritime industry for a period of five years.

John Dehlin [01:39:50] Is Coast Guard a part of this at all?

Kelly Laing [01:39:52] No, there's Coast Guard Academy. They have their own academy. Yeah. And. But the pay coming out of the Merchant Marine Academy is phenomenal. And so that's one of the reasons why I chose it too.

John Dehlin [01:40:02] Okay.

Kelly Laing [01:40:03] So.

Heather Laing [01:40:04] So he went to New York.

Kelly Laing [01:40:05] I did. I went to New York. I had never been outside of Idaho, Utah, Wyoming. I never saw the ocean. And so I go. I go to the Merchant Marine Academy. And I remember the shock that night, staying in the hotel, just flying in New York, looking across the bay at New York City, thinking, what did I just do? And I was scared. And I showed up at that academy and I held onto two things, my testimony and my Heather. That was my safety net.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] My Heather. That's so sweet.

Heather Laing [01:40:35] He is pretty sweet.

Kelly Laing [01:40:38] And she was an integral part of that academy experience. So I got there, and there's only about four other midshipmen there that were members of the church. And it was a talk about a baptism by fire.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] How big is the class about?

Kelly Laing [01:40:51] So the Merchant Marine Academy there was only. At the time, I believe it was only about 1800 students. Very small. The Naval Academy is only 4400. So about half the size. And so as I get there and I'm getting indoctrinated and going through some very tough experiences, and I could talk for hours about it.

John Dehlin [01:41:10] Beat you down.

Kelly Laing [01:41:11] Oh, they do the plea summer.

John Dehlin [01:41:13] Yell at you and shave your head.

Kelly Laing [01:41:14] Run you around in middle of Long Island Summer, you just get.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] It's New York's hot in the summer.

Kelly Laing [01:41:20] It is very hot.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:41:21] Humidity.

Heather Laing [01:41:22] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:41:22] And. But it was magical. I had never experienced the east coast, seeing the Long Island Sound, the sailboats, going by the military culture. I was enthralled. And it was. I had found my spot.

John Dehlin [01:41:35] You loved it?

Kelly Laing [01:41:35] I loved it. Oh, I. I ate it up.

Heather Laing [01:41:37] He thrives it.

Kelly Laing [01:41:38] It was difficult to go through.

John Dehlin [01:41:40] Were you athletic in high school?

Kelly Laing [01:41:41] I love to ski, ride motorcycles.

John Dehlin [01:41:43] You weren't like football, basketball?

Kelly Laing [01:41:44] Oh, I played. Played football. Younger on. I wrestled with my brother. I didn't want to be like my brothers because I didn't want to live after their. They were the absolute jocks in high school and everybody worshiped them.

John Dehlin [01:41:54] You didn't want to follow in their foot.

Kelly Laing [01:41:55] So I wanted to set my own name.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] Okay, Okay. I was telling you were athletic enough to where you could handle. Oh, yeah, boot camp.

Kelly Laing [01:42:02] Basically, yes, I was very athletic. Hike, bike. I would.

John Dehlin [01:42:05] Okay, yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:42:06] And I grew up working on farms, moving pipe, hauling hay, sharing sheep, castrating cattle. You name the dirty job.

John Dehlin [01:42:13] Castrating cattle, sheep.

Kelly Laing [01:42:15] Oh, Mason doesn't want me to tell the castrating cow stores the cattle stories. Yeah, I often joke with my sailors. I said, look, micro dirty jobs. He's got nothing on me. No, it's because I did some dirty, dirty, nasty, hard working jobs growing up because we didn't have money. And my dad said, if you want a car, clothes, education, anything, you need to earn it yourself. So I grew up working on a lot of manual labor. So the academy was intense. But at the same time, after we got there was a Catholic father that showed the student body a movie that all of a sudden I had people coming left and right to me, just questioning me, left about what is this? You believe this? Do you believe that the movie was the God Makers?

John Dehlin [01:43:01] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:43:02] And I had never heard around what year is this? This was in 1992, right when I showed up to the can me. And so a Catholic, a Catholic father

John Dehlin [01:43:10] showed the student God Makers to your peers. That sucks.

Kelly Laing [01:43:14] Oh, he hated Mormons. This Catholic father really hated Mormons. And so I was shocked. And so I. They were asking me about the temple and I'd never been through the temple. They're asking me about all these weird polygamy, Polya, not polyandry. Yet they were asking me about these just things in the church. And Joseph Smith being a gold digger. Like, no, he had gold plates. And why do you call him a gold digger? Just because he had gold plates and they were given to him by an angel. I was testifying and I called my father. I said, dad, what is going on? These people are, you know, they showed the student body this movie called the God Makers. They're asking me all these questions, you know, can you help me? He's like, kelly, I got you. I'm sending you a book. You need to read it cover for cover and you become a defender of the faith. This is part of your calling in life. He sent me the truth about the

John Dehlin [01:43:56] God Makers, Mormon doctrine. Oh, okay.

Kelly Laing [01:43:59] Mormon doctrine. And so I devoured Mormon doctrine and I started, you know, preaching and teaching the gospel. In fact, I had. We would have these discussions late night in our dorms and people would come in and they were asking all kinds of questions about the church and I became an expert in my mind.

John Dehlin [01:44:14] We called it a scriptorian.

Kelly Laing [01:44:16] Oh, I became a scriptorian because I was reading the Book of Mormon I would get through the third time in my life and I was new to Mormon doctrine then I was reading Jesus the Christ and I was getting through the work and the glory and I could explain it all. And I was becoming the apologetic, an apologist for the church.

John Dehlin [01:44:31] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:44:32] And I was helping others. You know, one midshipman that I helped that came out to me that he was Mormon, but he'd left the faith, converts back and leaves the academy to go on a mission. And I felt so good about myself because I was doing everything that was right and I could always spin those stories as faith promoting stories. And I did for years and years. But the academy was pinnacle for me to submit my testimony because once you have to defend something, it's that reverse effect. You start believing more. And I did through and through. And it became a very, very challenging time. And I worked through and I became kind of this leader amongst the LDS midshipmen where I organized temple trips and bands to get to sacrament meeting, because there was no meetings on the academy grounds. We had to go out in town and then we met a bunch of nannies that were in the ward and I would get dates and Heather was. We would date other people still, because that was what you did. You still date if you can't be together. Even though we called every weekend and spend two rolls of quarters on calls

John Dehlin [01:45:36] to our gen zers, you used to have to put a quarter in a payphone. There were no cell phones and payphones is the way you had to physically pay for a call, right?

Heather Laing [01:45:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:48] Yes.

Heather Laing [01:45:48] We're so old fashioned.

Kelly Laing [01:45:49] And so I get out to the academy and then we start to get liberty and I'm starting to go out on town in New York City and go to. Well, and you're wearing uniform. When I'm wearing uniform out in New York City, there's a lot of great patriots out there. They'd pay for your dinners and buy you this or that. You go to the USO and they had free tickets to Broadway shows. And my mind was getting just open to educational and cultural experiences that I'd never had. And it was phenomenal. I keep calling Heather and telling her about this. I said, you have got to come out here, here. And so I invited her out.

Heather Laing [01:46:21] My senior year was May, my senior year. My parents came with me and we flew to New York and he hosted us for. We were here for five days, weren't we? And we went to New York City and it was amazing. It was the first time I had ever flown. And then just to Go to New York City. It was eye opening and amazing.

Kelly Laing [01:46:42] And then on top of that, her little rebellious streak, her mom and dad weren't quite sure if they were going to. She was going to let her go. And she just flat out told him, if you will, if you don't go with me, I'm going by myself. So she put her foot down and

Heather Laing [01:46:54] that was big for me because that was scary. But.

Kelly Laing [01:46:58] And at the same time, I had just put my papers in for a mission call and I had just told the academy, I'm going to leave the academy after the first year because I'm going to go serve a mission. And I was in it to win it. I was 100% following my father's footsteps.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] Except he didn't go on a mission.

Kelly Laing [01:47:15] Exactly.

Heather Laing [01:47:15] You're following what your father wanted you

Kelly Laing [01:47:18] to do and all the expectations of the, you know, what he considered failings in life of things that he didn't do, his regrets. And so I end up leaving the academy and that was very difficult. Full ride scholarship. I mean, meals, tuition, board, everything. An engineering degree. To leave the academy after a year to go on a mission, you have to. At that point, I had to turn down my everything and then have to reapply to come back. And I get my mission call and I go to Brazil. I go to Brazil on a mission and Heather goes to Rick's.

Heather Laing [01:47:52] Yep.

Kelly Laing [01:47:53] You want to tell your part before I tell my mission?

Heather Laing [01:47:54] It was pretty basic. I went to Rick's. I studied social work because of my patriarchal blessing. It said in there that I was supposed I would help people to feel good about themselves. And so that kind of translated. I'm like, okay, I guess that's what it is.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] It didn't say you'd be a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. What?

Heather Laing [01:48:17] Oh, darn. But no, just that I was going to be very helpful, make people feel good. And so I went to Rick's college and I had a great time. I had great roommates. They were super fun. And I just, I didn't party in like the sense of people would say party, but I just had fun and just soaked it up and stuff. And I wouldn't say I put my heart into the studying part of it. And so I made good friends after that year, though. I looked at where I was at and how my heart wasn't into the studying part of it. And so I decided not to go back because I figured I shouldn't pay that much money just to go have fun. And so I got a Job. I lived at home and I got a job that second year that Kelly was on his mission and work from home and just. I'm a homebody too, so it wasn't a bad year for me. I enjoyed being at home, I enjoyed working. I just was kind of. It was good. I'm pretty good about just. I'm chill about things. So that was basically. There was nothing really exciting in that two years besides having fun at Rick's college first year and just working and enjoying being at home.

Kelly Laing [01:49:27] The second year, kissing another boy.

Heather Laing [01:49:28] Boy, I did. I, I kissed. I had a friend from high school. We got. Oh, I think, I think we. I went to one young single adult dance and all I can remember mostly was that there were a lot of really old men there, you know, 30 year olds, really old. And I was what, 18? And so I'm like, this is weird. But he was there and we got like reconnected and then we started, we dated a little bit. He rock climbed. Know what rock climb is with him and stuff. And then we went on a date and we kissed for a while and. And I. All I could think was like, definitely does not kiss like Kelly. It's kind of like, ew. And so I. And then I kind of felt guilty. I'm like, I don't really like him like that. I like Kelly. I like being with Kelly. And so we stayed friends. I told him like, I don't really want to kiss anymore. And he's like, okay. And so we stayed friends and stuff, but. But my heart was definitely more into Kelly, so. And that was. That was it.

John Dehlin [01:50:32] You broke her, Kelly.

Heather Laing [01:50:33] I did, I did break me. I. There wasn't anybody else for me.

Kelly Laing [01:50:39] And likewise we. So I'll pick off then we're going on the mission.

Heather Laing [01:50:45] Okay.

Kelly Laing [01:50:47] I knew I was to go serve and I was prepared. And I had read the Book of Mormon several times at this point. Doctrine Covenants, New Testament, Pearl of great price. All of those many times I hadn't read the Old Testament yet, so. But I felt like, as I mentioned, I was a scriptorian, I get to the mtc and the MTC was just an eye opening experience. I mean the first time I get to a place where the ice cream bars you could go and get as many as you wanted, it was amazing.

John Dehlin [01:51:17] BYUc.

Kelly Laing [01:51:18] That's right by you.

Guest 2 [01:51:19] Food.

Kelly Laing [01:51:22] And as I saw so many other new missionaries struggling with the mtc, it was not a struggle for me because I just got finished with the academy experience and I thought this is a walk in the park. And so I was just soaking this all up and had a lot of really neat experiences going through there and made some great friends. And I will just put this caveat out there. There's a lot of great experiences I've had inside of the Mormon Church. There's a lot of great things I've learned and who I became because of the teachings, experiences, the service. And so I don't want people to think that the church is bad because we've left. It is not right for us and the foundations for us are not true. So I just want to be very clear about that. But while I'm in the npc, I remember Richard G. Scott came and spoke to us.

Guest 2 [01:52:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:09] Your boy. Oh, my word.

Kelly Laing [01:52:11] Richard G. Scott who worked for Admiral Rickover. I'm not a Navy Navy nuclear submariner yet.

John Dehlin [01:52:16] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:52:17] But Richard G. Scott, who worked for Admiral Rickover. And if those who was Admiral Rickover is the father of the nuclear Navy. The hardest probably admiral that's ever existed in the Navy.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] He's the hardest.

Kelly Laing [01:52:29] Hardest.

John Dehlin [01:52:29] What does that mean?

Kelly Laing [01:52:30] He was, he was notorious for just being cutthroat and ruthless. In fact, President Reagan had to fire him. He was so. Longest serving admiral in the United States Navy.

John Dehlin [01:52:42] Wow. He.

Kelly Laing [01:52:43] He would not retire. He developed the nuclear Navy nuclear reactors implemented that, came up with this design for the Nautilus submarine, all of that. And Richard G. Scott worked under him.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:52:54] And so. And Richard G. Scott is, you know, a nuclear engineer, was an apostle. An apostle of the Lord.

John Dehlin [01:52:59] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:52:59] And Richard G. Scott left naval reactors to go serve a mission. In fact, when Richard G. Scott told NASA Admiral Rickover that he was leaving naval reactors to go serve a mission, Richard G. Scott lost. I mean, Admiral Rickover lost his mind. And it very true to form, just chewed him out and said, I won't. He goes, you're traitor to the country. I will guarantee you'll never work in the nuclear industry again. And just threatened him left and right. And Richard G. Scott still left. And that story is in an instant you can look up if anybody wants to know. And it's a cool story. But Richard D. Scott went and served a mission, then gets called, as you know, later on as apostle. And so I had this deep respect for Richard D. Scott. He was very soft spoken and very spiritual. I really respected him. And I remember they told us he was coming.

John Dehlin [01:53:49] We also spoke Spanish and did a lot of work in Latin America. He did.

Kelly Laing [01:53:52] He did.

John Dehlin [01:53:53] Apostle. He.

Kelly Laing [01:53:56] When we found out who's coming, we skipped the meal to go sit in the very front row to make sure I was right there at the foot of the apostle when he spoke to us. I had notes, my companions and you know, from my district, we were there ready to learn from the Lord. And he came and delivered almost a two hour dissertation on the life of Jesus Christ. And I will tell you, that was the best talk I'd ever heard in my life up to that point. Yeah, I sat there in tears at so many points and wrote down, took so many notes. And as he testified about Jesus Christ, who he was, his life, his manner, his what he went through, it was eye opening as I'm hearing this, because you know, an apostle is also one that communicates with God in Christ. And then he gets to the end of his talk and he talks about this second anointing, a calling and an election made sure. And he talks about this calling, an election made sure. And he said, he goes, the calling and election made sure. And I'd read this before in Mormon doctrine, so I knew what it was. And he's explaining it to the group which Mormon doctrine says calling an election made sure is nothing more and nothing less than having Jesus Christ personally appear to you as a second witness. It is the first witness. First one is the Holy Ghost, the second witness, hence the calling. Election made sure or second anointing is when Jesus Christ comes and appears to you. And that's very clear in Mormon doctrine. And he was very clear about that in his talk. No more, no less than Christ coming to you. And he talks about the sacredness of it. And then he goes on and says, since Joseph smith, there's been 186 men that have received the calling and election made sure. And he pauses and he looks at the congregation, all these elders and sisters, and said, elders, sisters, I want you to know that I know that Christ lives and not by my spiritual eyes. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. And walks off. And I was just tingling. This man has seen Christ. This man has walked and talked with our Savior. And that to me was one of these testimony builders like none other.

Mission Experiences and Temple Ceremonies

John Dehlin [01:56:07] And when we talk about influence or undue influence, what does that do to the mind of a 19 or 20 year old boy?

Kelly Laing [01:56:14] Oh, one cements everything that I've believed and heard about the LDS faith, Joseph Smith, the apostles. And then it also endears me to the brethren, like my father really pushed on us. You do not descend against the brethren. The brethren are next to royalty and it's hero worship at that point.

John Dehlin [01:56:31] It's one of the 12 apostles of Jesus.

Kelly Laing [01:56:33] It is.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] It may as well be Jesus.

Kelly Laing [01:56:34] Exactly. And anything that man says is what Jesus would say. Yeah, absolutely. So I took that with me going into the field and I went down to Brazil and I was served in Sao Paulo, Brazil, North Mission. And whoa, the shock stepping in. And I got into Sao Paulo, Brazil, went, had, you know, the obligatory dinner with the mission president, met the mission president and his wife. Phenomenal people. And then I get assigned my companion. Brazilian, does not speak a lick of English. And we get sat on the outskirts of Sao Paulo in just this rural area. And it was. That first two months was tough. I remember opening my first little apartment. We walked down the side of this, just run down home. And I asked my companion in broken Portuguese, ISO noso casa, is this our house? He laughed and smiled and goes, no, ours isn't. The back. And we get to the back and what it reminds me of is getting to the old swimming pool, changing lockers of an outdoor swimming pool with all these doors in a big square. And we got to these two little doors and a little chain that we could come through him, a little lock. And he opens it up. And it was an 8 by 10 room, dirt floor with except for 4 tiles right in front of the sink and a pair of bunk beds. And we shared a shower and toilet with 20 other migrant workers. The living conditions were deplorable. I remember laying in bed that night and feeling fleas on me for the first time. And I cried myself to sleep. And I thought, what did I get myself into? I can't do this. And I was scared like none other. And that first two months, I mean, the stories of getting bit by dogs, the confrontations and the heat, just the miserable living conditions, learning to speak Portuguese. And it was so tough. And I thought so many of my times in my mind, I don't know if I can do this. I think I need to quit. But the shame of going home, I couldn't. I couldn't go home. And this is where I need to bring in a story about growing up. Because my brother Dan, who I wish anybody that hasn't met Dan or knows Dan, most gentle, kind heart. But the guy is 6 foot 4. John, you're a tall dude. Dan is 6 foot 4 also. But the guy has muscles. His arms are the size of my thighs. The guy is just absolutely built. He's just tough as nails, strong as I'll get out. My sons can testify to that. I hate that word. But Dan goes on his mission to Des Moines, Iowa, after he, you Know, real rough teenage years and gets converted to go on mission. And he goes on this mission. And just under a year on a mission, he calls my dad and says, dad, I can't do this anymore.

John Dehlin [01:59:25] Anymore.

Kelly Laing [01:59:26] I don't believe in the church. I don't believe in what I'm teaching out here. And out in Iowa, he found out some of the things that I now find out later on. And then he just doesn't like it. He said, and Iowa's a tough place to convert people. I mean, you talk about the Trail of Tears and burnt areas with where Mormons used to be. Anti Mormon stuff. Left and right is what we coined it also evangelical?

John Dehlin [01:59:49] Sometimes, yes.

Kelly Laing [01:59:51] And my father told my brother, if you leave the mission, don't come home. There's not a place for here. You don't come home. So he stayed a little bit longer and he wrote home and said he was still having hard times. And the answer's backward. Don't come home. And so my brother left the mission and he didn't come home. He went to California with friends because he went like all of us do. We go where we're accepted in life. And my father was heartbroken. How could he, how could he do this to me? And he was concerned about the image of his son leaving the mission. And I remember we were in Arco, Idaho at the time. We were driving home from church and it was the first Sunday after my brother left and I was riding home with him and I was sitting in the passenger seat and my father was just angry and mad. And all of a sudden he starts pounding the steering wheel, yelling things about my brother. And he said the words, I'll never forget. I wish he would have just died. It would have been better that he died than come home. At least he would have been saved in the celestial kingdom if he would have died on his mission. And now he's our Son of perdition. I wish he would have died. And he said it over and over again. And as a 16 year old, 15 year old at the time, sorry, no shit. You talk about something that cements in your heart. I saw the disapproval and anger of my father. There was no way I was going to leave my mission. And so I gutted it out. I'm glad I got it out though, because I learned a lot.

John Dehlin [02:01:23] Please, can I just say, you know, this isn't like an extreme example. I mean, during my mission there, there was like a month where two elders got sent home early. One for molesting a kid while dressing them for their Baptism and another, oddly, for having sex with, like, the bishop's wife on the floor of, like, the chapel. But the mission president called us all together and in zone conference shared this quote from, like, I don't know, Heber J. Grant or Joseph Fielding Smith, one of those dudes. And it basically said, it's better to return home in a pine box than without honor. From your mission.

Kelly Laing [02:02:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:02:05] So this wasn't just your dad. This, this was, and probably in some areas of Mormonism still is the culture. And so, I mean, not to excuse your dad, but systems, you know, it's systems. And this, this has been the Mormon system that is, frankly, wrecked a lot of lives and ruined a lot of families. And it's why. It's one of the main reasons we do Mormon stories, you know, it is.

Kelly Laing [02:02:28] And that it's the system that keeps getting propagated. And I heard that several other times from other people after my dad said that. And so I knew where he got it from. And it made sense then why he felt that way. Well, it helped me understand why he felt that way. It didn't make sense. It never. Still doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] Don't let me forget that that's not the way Heather was raised. Right? No, it's the opposite.

Heather Laing [02:02:51] Right.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] So not all Mormons lived that way, but some did.

Kelly Laing [02:02:54] And the contrast, you know, stepping back when I go to her family reunions as a teenager to see all these sinners walking around, but the acceptance is air quotes. Oh, yes, well, sinners, because they had beer and they had tattoos and they were not in the church or active or it was just. It was a different variety. But you know what? Damn, they were fun to be with. And I remember my dad talking about, well, you know, it's a great and spacious building. Yeah, they're going to have a good time, but you know where your true happiness lies. So fast forward, you know, back to my mission. I wasn't going to leave, and so I worked my butt tail end off and my. I find myself four months into the mission being made a district leader and I became the model missionary. By what the church expects, I was the quintessential white handbook. If it said it, it was black and white. I would not deviate from it. And I didn't.

John Dehlin [02:03:49] And it's very militaristic, right?

Kelly Laing [02:03:52] Very militaristic.

John Dehlin [02:03:53] MTC white handbook, rules, which was easy

Kelly Laing [02:03:56] to do coming from the academy to the mission. And so I held the rules tight and so then became a zone leader. And I became a zone leader in this one area that was phenomenal. And I could be got this one mission companion who was Brazilian. Codechiba, Brazil. I still have contact with him, love him to death, think he's a phenomenal human being and he has African American descent in him. And I learned so much from him. I learned about his life, where he came from. I learned what it meant to have skin a different color. I always felt bad when he longed to have my white skin because of being white and delightsome what the Book of Mormon teaches, what the prophets taught. And he always avoided the sun. And everywhere we'd go, he'd try to stay out of the sun as much as possible because he wanted to also be white and delightsome. And I remember thinking, but you were just born, it's not your fault you're born that way. But then also remembering what the teachings of the church were. It's based on what they did in pre existence. And your level of your color of your skin was based on your faithfulness and the pre existence. I did not want to believe that. Especially after getting to know people that honestly he was the better human being than me. I became a mission the AP and I did everything on my mission that was wanted. But I remember one experience specifically and I could tell a dozen mission stories. But one that marked me significantly was I remember we were told Elder Ballard was coming to our mission to address our mission specifically and to prepare. We needed to fast and pray and everybody fasted in coming into this and we weren't told to, but we were encouraged to fast. You know, an extraordinary fast which meant it would never put in writing for 48 hours. Have water 24 hours and then continue your fast. So I. Oh you bet. I fasted for 48 hours going into this. And my buddy Grayson Wilcox, I'm going to throw you out by name only because you're my one of my favorite exmos right now that served my mission. Who definitely will be listening to this. He knows and can validate all this. We get to this conference and Elder Ballard comes. We are ready to hear the word of God, an apostle speak. And I'm ready for a Richard G. Scott experience and I needed it at this point in my mission.

John Dehlin [02:06:24] I'm going to throw in just really quickly. First of all, it's ironic and I don't mean to break your story, but Elder Scott and Ballard both came to my mission in Guatemala in the 88 to 90 time period. So it's I think Ballard as and I, I don't mean to be sarcastic, but As a used car salesman, I think he was the missionary apostle, right. That. That was kind of his domain. That's what he loved and he cared about. But then because Elder Scott spoke Spanish, he was also kind of the apostle to the Latin Americans. And Gerardo, you know, we love Gerardo, and he's just encouraging me to write that, that Elder Scott was so intense that he would translate his talks into Spanish and. And, you know, he would try and give his talks in Spanish because he spoke fluent, fluent Spanish. So anyway, and also Gerardo wanted to remind us that Elder Oaks has since been on record as saying that none of the apostles have actually seen Christ. So we'll probably get to that later. But Gerardo wanted to make sure we'll come back to that. But. But her arta wanted to make sure we threw that in. So even though you're being told by. Given the impression by Elder Scott that he had seen Christ, we now have a contradictory testimony by Oaks that the apostles don't see Christ. So that's interesting. But anyway, so you, both of us had the Elder Scott experience, and now I'm about to hear your Elder Ballard experience.

Kelly Laing [02:07:44] Spot on. And thank you, Gerardo. Thank you for your Mormon story too, because I just ate that one up more than you possibly know. It was phenomenal. So we get to this conference and we're sitting there and, you know, I get to meet the Elder Ballard, shake his hand and everything, and I'm just anticipating this phenomenal spiritual experience. And he gets up and it's hell fire and damnation. Repentance. We are not baptizing enough because you missionaries are not keeping the rules. You haven't repented enough of what you did before the mission. There are those of you here that are still guilty of grievous sins that you have not repented of. I call. Call all of you to repentance. It was shame, guilt, damnation. Just absolute hellfire and damnation pounding on the pulpit. And I sat there and you wanted numbers. I mean, oh, yeah, right. We weren't getting the numbers. And I'm taking this personally and internally thinking I need to do better, I was. But I walked away there from that meeting completely deflated, guilted, and thinking, I've done everything I could, I can't do anymore. In fact, from that experience, I contacted the mission president and said I need to confess some things. I went back and I reconfessed everything I did as a teenager to my mission president. And he goes, well, you've talked about this before. I said, yeah, he Goes, well, maybe it would help if you just talk with 70. So he put me up because I was already, you know, serving as an AP at the time. We were right there in Kashingi next to the temple in the church office building. So he let me meet with a 70 and I reconfessed everything again, scrupulosity a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:09:22] It is hyper conscientious thinking.

Kelly Laing [02:09:24] I just, I'm not truly forgiven my sins. And that's why, you know, I'm thinking that Elder Ballard is preaching to me in that semi. Look at me. Said the words that I still appreciate to this day, even though I don't think he has the authority to do. He said, elder, you're forgiven. Speak of this no more. And that was one of the first times that true charity of just that should have been at that time. And I pushed it away at that point and I continue to serve. And my words, I just want to

John Dehlin [02:09:58] say it's charitable and it's completely contrived.

Kelly Laing [02:10:00] It is because you shouldn't have been

John Dehlin [02:10:01] made to feel that awful to begin with. So it's a good cop, bad copy cop kind of thing.

Guest 2 [02:10:06] As somebody who didn't serve a mission, I was always really. Can you explain a little bit more about the direct implication between your worthiness and somebody else's ability to receive the gospel or that you carry the spirit with you, that somebody else's salvation's in your hands?

John Dehlin [02:10:21] A lot of pressure. Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:10:22] Oh, what's the message there?

Kelly Laing [02:10:24] I will tell you. It's. It was preached through and through your worthiness. Your work on the mission will directly impact somebody's ability to you to meet somebody and their ability to accept the gospel. And if you do not live up to all the rules and worthiness standards, you could be the cause of somebody's salvation or lack thereof. And so I had, growing up in a very guilted home that sat with me like I need to work my butt off so that there's nobody that can look at me at the last day and say, you didn't teach me. You didn't open your mouth. You didn't say that. That carries on through my adult life at post mission. And so yes, absolutely, it was very much pushed other people's exaltation. Salvation is dependent on your worthiness, lack of sin and your work ethic. How much you serve and give inside the church, 100.

Guest 2 [02:11:12] Is there also, is it like quite literally taught on the mission as well that like, you know, if you don't leave the house at times you're not following the white handbook to the letter of the law. That God is not going to put somebody in your path that would have accepted the gospel, but they're missing out because you didn't follow the letter of the law.

Heather Laing [02:11:33] Or that.

Guest 2 [02:11:34] And then twofold I was gonna. Is it also just like you, the spirit, you know, is not with you anymore?

Kelly Laing [02:11:40] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] If you don't the spirit, you can't have the spirit. Or if you masturbate, right?

Kelly Laing [02:11:43] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:11:45] Oh, talk about going dry for two years for 100. Yeah, absolutely. In both aspects of it. And even in zone conferences and district meetings, there would be those stories from other missionaries because that was what we were taught of. I left I know early my mission because I left the house five minutes late. I did not meet this person. I had that distinct impression and I will never do that again. And it's that virtue signaling and that comparison of I'm better because I obey the rules and I now can teach better. And I'm in this leadership position because I now know better. I do better. But in the. The missionary sense.

Guest 2 [02:12:19] Right, but there. That's what's so funny about just the way that data works is technically you could turn up the dial to 12 on a missionary. That doesn't mean there's more people who are suddenly converting to Mormonism like you should. The number should probably tell people that's not how it works. But for like my husband's mission they. They put him through, everybody had to wake up an hour early and go to bed an hour later. So they were just work to the bone. And you would think like, okay, you turn it up. The scrupulsity. Everything else with the worlds wouldn't that. That more people are being found, the spirit's stronger, all of those things. But it doesn't really translate over.

John Dehlin [02:12:54] Right.

Guest 2 [02:12:54] There's never any like, let's see how we're actually doing. You know, it's just how sometimes it's the opposite.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] The missionaries become depressed and suicidal.

Guest 2 [02:13:01] Right.

Kelly Laing [02:13:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:13:02] And. And it's not good for the numbers.

Guest 2 [02:13:03] My husband had to come home for that reason.

John Dehlin [02:13:05] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:13:06] The depression went through the roof.

John Dehlin [02:13:07] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:13:08] Christ like love went down.

Kelly Laing [02:13:10] And I will tell you, there was a point in my mission, 14 months in, I. I hit depression and I had given everything and I was working my tail end off. And I remember when I got to this point, I woke up one morning, it was just before I came ap. I couldn't move. And I was one of the few apartments that had a telephone in it. And the phone Rings and it's my mission president. And he calls me elder, what's wrong? And I tell him, president, I'm empty, I'm done, I can't do it anymore. He said, come in the office and let's talk. And so I went in, got the bus with my companion. We went in, we talked, talked about all kinds of things. And he had me go and spend the day in the temple and had some neat experiences in the temple that I don't need to get into here. But I sat and talked with him about how to, you know, therapy more than anything is what it was to get through some hard experiences to keep going. And then I was later on I got called as ap, which was a great experience other than I don't want to dog a companion here because he is a good man, but just very different personalities, you know, so our personalities as assistants to the president was very tough. But. But, you know, getting through that mission, it was all I could do. And I got to the last day of my mission, John, and I was exhausted. I gave my all. And I remember that. And I remember, you know, post mission, looking back, people say, oh, it's the greatest two years of my life. I just want to go back. I was like, no, it was good two years of my mission. But the greatest two years of my mission are the two years I'm living now, especially with Heather and or with my wife and moving forward in life. But I did not want to go back. It was hard. I worked my ass off and I, you know, by the numbers, I baptize a lot more than what they called for. But it makes me sad because knowing what I know now, I will just caveat one thing. Coming back to my mission, one of the life saving things that I had on my mission were the letters from home. Specifically the letters from Heather. My mission president made it so I could only write her once a month. That was the rule. She wrote me every week. We have a trunk full of letters that. Good times, hard times. But coming home from a mission, I think I can. Good point. Jump into what you want to say.

John Dehlin [02:15:55] Let me ask this really quickly. In my mission, there's a real problem with going for the numbers. Some companionships are baptizing up to 40 people in a month. The mission was baptizing like 750 people a month. Baptizing 7 year olds, drunks, children without their parents. Did you guys have.

Guest 2 [02:16:12] I just had an image of drunk 7 year olds in my head.

John Dehlin [02:16:17] No. Yeah, that, but probably that. But also just like going for the numbers and baptizing people that had no business being baptized even without the discussions. Did you have any of that kind of baptism charlatanry going on?

Kelly Laing [02:16:31] There were in the two mission presidents prior to me. That was a lot of that.

John Dehlin [02:16:35] Okay.

Kelly Laing [02:16:35] My mission president actually came in to

John Dehlin [02:16:37] help clean all that up.

Kelly Laing [02:16:38] Yeah. And he showed up. And I only had a couple weeks with a new mission president. I mean, the old mission president. The new president. Mission president. He since passed away. I'll say his name. Ralph Dang. There's no disparaging Ralph thing. His wife Marianne is still alive, and I love her to death. It's going to break her heart to find out that I left. But I will tell you, Ralph and Marianne Dang are some of the kindest people you ever know. He became the mission president of the MTC in Brazil later on, but he cleaned things up. He held missionaries accountable for the. What were the standards? He was a great man, and he taught and loved. He wasn't a heart, he wasn't the hard ass. He held the standard, but he was very much loved, and I loved him, too. Nothing but great things to say about that.

John Dehlin [02:17:27] Okay, that's great to hear.

Kelly Laing [02:17:28] He cleaned up the mission because we ran into a lot of people that were those baseball baptisms down in Brazil, soccer baptisms, because that happened all over Sao Paulo before I got to there.

John Dehlin [02:17:37] Okay. I'm glad you didn't have to deal with that.

Kelly Laing [02:17:40] Thank goodness.

John Dehlin [02:17:41] Yeah. Okay. You were saying?

Kelly Laing [02:17:43] All right, so the time end of the mission comes and it's time to come home. And I get on a plane, I fly home, and I remember, shoot, I didn't even tell the story about getting kissed by a Playboy bunny on a mission. Super, superfluous. I didn't ask for it. She kissed me. But we are on our way home, get a flight into Salt Lake City, and I'm getting a flight. I land in Salt Lake City, and unbeknownst to me, my father is waiting in Salt Lake City for me on a connecting flight as he's coming back from Tennessee where he. For his job. And as we sit in the airport and talk, you know, it was very kind, great conversation with my father in one of those memorable times. He asked me, he said, he goes, kelly, what do you. What are you thinking about Heather? And I said, dad, I love her, but in two years, I've changed a lot. I'm sure she's changed a lot. We've written and stuff a lot, and she's my best friend, but two years is a Long time, I don't know. And he said, kelly, you'll know. You'll know when you see her. And so I get off the plane, the first person I see is my mom, which, that last two years of high school, my mom, everything. And I remember so much her embrace. And I pulled back. The next person I saw standing there was Heather. And. All right, truth be told, my buddy Kingsley would tell me, take a train. I am an emotional person, especially the person that means the most to me in life, which is her. I'll forever remember embracing her, put my arms around her, the feeling of that just tight embrace, the smell of her hair and everything. It was so intense. And it's one of Those just top 10 experiences in life. And I remember that. And I did break the rule. I embraced her. I don't think I kissed you then, did I? No, I didn't. I just hugged you. But it was a magical feeling. And we went home and I went and got released. And that night, after Heather went home, my dad asked, he said, what are you thinking? I said, dada, she's the one. And he goes, so what are you going to do about it? And so I called Heather's dad. I said, can I come talk to you tomorrow night? I went and talked to her dad, and I was scared as I'll get out. And that man sat with me and was so kind as I, you know, poured my heart out to him about the love I have for his daughter and asked for her hand in marriage. And he said, kelly, there's no one else I'd rather have my daughter marry. And it was the best. And this is a guy that doesn't express his emotions, so he moves forward. He says yes. Well, when am I going to ask her? So I was very patient and planned things out and was going to wait a long time. And it was exactly 48 hours after I got back. I asked her to marry me. And I think you said yes.

Guest 2 [02:21:10] I did.

Heather Laing [02:21:11] I said yes. I didn't know it was going to be that quick. I was hoping. And then my mom was the star of the show because we planned a wedding for six weeks later. So.

Kelly Laing [02:21:25] Yeah, and shout out to a brother, too, who paid for the ring. That's my. My brother Joe, who. Best friend in life. And I'll. He. Not only he. He saved our son's life. But that's a different story. We'll get to. But shout out to my brother there. So we got married.

Heather Laing [02:21:44] We did.

Kelly Laing [02:21:45] Went to Utah State in the temple. We did at a false temple. We didn't talk about. Let's talk about temple experiences until yours.

Heather Laing [02:21:54] Oh, well, I went to the temple. You had already gone because you went before and your mission.

Kelly Laing [02:22:00] So.

Heather Laing [02:22:00] But I went to the temple the day I got married. And so it was a big day. It was very long whirlwind. And. And I don't know, I. I just. It was different and. But I had been told over and over how sacred and special it was. And so I'm like, okay, this must mean what sacred and special is. That's what this means. This must be the definition. Okay, all right, I can roll with it. And. And I was waiting for some. Again, like I said before, waiting for some big spiritual experience to, to fill whatever. And I didn't probably fleetingly thought a little disappointed, like, oh, this was supposed to. I'm getting married and I'm going to the temple. And.

John Dehlin [02:22:51] And that's a bit of a recurring theme then.

Heather Laing [02:22:53] Yeah, you're not feeling what you should be feeling. Just I'm like, so. But I promptly. I'm like, but this is what we're supposed to do. So. All right. And I just went along and stuff. And it was, it was a pretty. Pretty wild. Because I was tired. It was a pretty wild day.

Guest 2 [02:23:08] Yeah.

Heather Laing [02:23:08] But I did it.

John Dehlin [02:23:11] Yeah. Fortunately, you did it after 1990 when the.

Heather Laing [02:23:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:14] The things were removed.

Heather Laing [02:23:15] 1995, when we were married.

Kelly Laing [02:23:18] Yeah.

Heather Laing [02:23:19] My temple experience when you went through the first time.

Kelly Laing [02:23:23] So there was no temple prep class. And even the temple prep class that we're given that I helped teach later on didn't really explain what was going to happen.

Heather Laing [02:23:29] I did go through it. I don't remember it very much though, but I did.

Kelly Laing [02:23:32] Yeah, I remember getting to the temple for that. Washings and anointings. And I remember going through. And that was the thing that really freaked me out is no one told me that you're going to put on. You're going to get butt naked and put this little shield over top of you, and it's open on the sides and you're walking through the temple naked. And I'm thinking, what the heck? And I had very much some modesty issues, like, I did not want to have anybody see me naked. My kids will laugh now because, like, Dad's like, whoo hoo, Homer Simpson style. But I was very conscious about that. And then I get into the washings and anointings and they start the Washington, and this man's dipping his finger in the oil.

John Dehlin [02:24:14] Oil and touching you.

Kelly Laing [02:24:15] And that's what really disturbed me as he dipped his finger in the oil and was putting on me. I went through washing anointings later on and saw how it was supposed to be done, how it happened with me. He's dipping his fingers in the oil and it was three. And then he's. It's, it's the massaging of each spot and it's not just the touch and

John Dehlin [02:24:33] tell people where they're touching you.

Kelly Laing [02:24:35] It was, if I remember correctly now, it was, it was head on the, on the breast and on the loins, right? And as he reach, as he reaches in and touches the breast and rubs the bread and the breast with oil, I'm thinking, nobody's rubbed my nipple before with oil. She doesn't even do that. I joke around a lot about a lot of things, but. But church stuff I would never joke around about. No, I was. Not at all. And so as he dips it in his finger in oil again and then rubs oil down there, and it's in the pubic region on the loins and it's actually in the hair region. And I'm going, what? I was, this is uncomfortable. But then as I come out of the Washington anointings and, you know, dressed in the, in the Mormon garments, my father's all, there wasn't that great on Washington anointings? He's like, yeah. He goes, the oil. He goes, well, that's all part of it for the signs and symbols you're going to get later on. And I'm thinking, he goes, you don't have to go through that very often. Often he goes, it's, it's only if you choose to go back to that. And I'm thinking in my mind, I'm never going back to that. And so we go through the endowment

John Dehlin [02:25:40] ceremony, something the church has since changed because of people talking openly and embarrassing the church and shaming the church. But for 150 plus years, that's what I went through, what everyone went through. And it really is creepy and gross and inappropriate. And the church did it forever until it was shamed into stopping it. Which then begs the question, how is the temple ceremony a revelation from God? A direct revelation from God? If they're like changing it once, they cave to social pressure because they're shamed and embarrassed. But we were all taught it was directly God to the church leaders, to us, that Solomon. Right, the stuff that Solomon and David did in the temple back in, you know, ancient times. Right.

Kelly Laing [02:26:21] Yeah. And so not only that, I mean, you've come to find out that the initial Washington, anointings that happened in Joseph Smith's time were completely different.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] Even worse.

Kelly Laing [02:26:29] Even worse.

John Dehlin [02:26:29] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:26:30] I'm glad I didn't have to go back through at the end. Anyways, it just, the temple, it weirded me out the first time, but I just, it was that cognitive dissonance. You're told it's special, you're told it's sacred, therefore it's special, it's sacred. I will accept it and move on. And I will accept this was revelation from God and go and you know, back up just a little bit. I was taught at the academy, I had that confrontation with the God makers about with either temple ceremonies, this and that. You stole it from the Mason Mason. And I talked to my father about that and even Mormon doctrine, what it used to say. He's like, look, Kelly, the Mason got all those signs and symbols back from the Masonic times, you know, when they built Solomon's temple. And it's been passed through the years and God's not going to re reveal something if it's already on the earth. That's why Joseph Smith had to become a Mason.

John Dehlin [02:27:16] It's a restoration.

Kelly Laing [02:27:18] It's a restoration. And if it's already there, he's going to take it from somewhere that's already on the earth. So I thought, okay, I'll accept that, that we'll come back to that later, if that's okay, John.

John Dehlin [02:27:26] Yeah, sure.

Kelly Laing [02:27:28] So I accept the temple. We move forward. And even in Logan, after we got married, we'd go to the temple about once a month in college, despite the fact I was working full time, going to school full time.

Heather Laing [02:27:39] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:27:40] Elders quorum president and a family ward mission leader first and then Elders Quorum president because we were going to wait for a couple years to have kids.

Heather Laing [02:27:51] We didn't wait that long. But we chose, we like cognitively said, okay, we want children now. And so Quincy was born. We were married in 1995 in July and Quincy was born in September of 96, our first child.

Kelly Laing [02:28:08] So and we, we chose together. She wanted to be a stay at home mom. And I also growing up in the patriarchy said I want to provide and I will provide to me.

Heather Laing [02:28:16] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:28:17] And I support somebody's choice in that in today as long as it is a cognitive choice and not a social construct that's forced upon you. So that's, that's the construct we went under and it's been great for us.

Heather Laing [02:28:29] Right. I, I just, I want to throw out there. I always wanted to be a mom. I, when I was growing Up I, I would love, I had like baby dolls and stuff and I would play with them and that's what I wanted to be. I would like pretend we were going on trips and pack their diaper bag and go sit in our car when I was a little girl and pretend we were going on a trip. And I always wanted to be a mom. And so for me, like I said, I went to that first year of Ricks and stuff and I'm like eh, this just isn't for me. And I didn't want a career, I didn't want to go and to do that, it wasn't something I ever wanted. And so when we decided I had Quincy and then decided to stay with him, him home for him and Kelly, I gratitude to him that he worked as hard as he did to let me be able to do that because it was something I wanted and he, he let me be able to do that by his hard work and school. He pretty much didn't sleep. So.

Kelly Laing [02:29:25] That being said though, she is the master of finances and right.

Heather Laing [02:29:29] We shared, we shared things absolutely.

Kelly Laing [02:29:32] The good financial position that we are in. We're not rich but we have or we don't have debt and stuff. It's because of her financial fiscal responsibility that she learned from her dad which credits to Carol perks for that one. So anyways, we're going through the school life and it's tough, it's hard. I go back to my patriarchal blessing. The patriarchal blessing says you're going to be in the military. So I look for how am I going to get into the military? Well, my dad was a pilot. He was in the Marine Corps. And so I start looking into that and I go through the system and the process and I get accepted into the Marine Corps and I.

John Dehlin [02:30:07] Did you do ROTC at Utah State?

Kelly Laing [02:30:09] I did not. Rotc. That's a program called PLC Platoon Leadership Class. And what happens is you go in under the enlisted construct. And so you go in enlisted construct and then they send you to Officer Candidate School later. So I went to Officer Candidate school.

John Dehlin [02:30:23] Why didn't you do rotc?

Kelly Laing [02:30:25] Because ROTC at Utah State was only Air Force.

John Dehlin [02:30:28] Oh, that's right. That's right.

Kelly Laing [02:30:30] And so. And you wanted to do Navy or Navy Marines.

John Dehlin [02:30:34] Okay, yeah. Okay. So you did a slightly different program.

Kelly Laing [02:30:38] And so I get and get into the Marine Corps program and I get accepted into the Marine Corps flight program. So I'm gonna go be a Marine Corps pilot. I go to OCS for the Marine Corps. I crushed it, graduated Number one in my class from Officer Candidate School, came back in Quantico floor. Quantico, Virginia.

John Dehlin [02:30:53] That's cool.

Kelly Laing [02:30:54] Oh, it was badass. It was so much fun, I tell you.

John Dehlin [02:30:57] It's like where FBI people train.

Kelly Laing [02:30:58] It is, it totally is.

John Dehlin [02:30:59] Yeah.

Heather Laing [02:31:00] And this was during, during the summer between college years. Like you hadn't graduated. This was during college in the summertime. And I was very pregnant with Quincy

John Dehlin [02:31:10] that summer, so he's going off for the summer to do training while you're taking care of the kids.

Heather Laing [02:31:14] So I didn't have any, but I was pregnant that summer. So with Quincy, our first.

Kelly Laing [02:31:19] And I go to ocs, come back and I continue to drill on the weekends as an E3 enlisted type in the, with the Marine Corps on the weekends until I would graduate from college and upon graduation, then I would get my commission and go straight to what they call the basic school for the Marine Corps. And then from there I'd go to flight school for the Marine Corps. And everything was, my dreams were being fulfilled, everything was on track. And just like I have to ask,

John Dehlin [02:31:42] did serving a mission in Brazil maybe give you an edge for ocs?

Kelly Laing [02:31:48] I think you absolutely do.

John Dehlin [02:31:49] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:31:49] I think that heat, the crap that I went through down there because I had some hard, hard experiences on my mission. I think it really did. Mental toughness. I think mental toughness is one of the most difficult things to teach next generation. And the mission did teach me a lot of mental toughness.

Heather Laing [02:32:06] And I would also say Kelly has done this quite a few times in his life before his mission that year at the academy they call a pleap summer and all academies do it. And, and so it's like a basic school or where you're like drilled and woken up and marched and taught and same thing. So he did that, went on his mission too. And then you had Marine Corps, Marine Corps ocs.

John Dehlin [02:32:35] So I just have to say I'm continually reminded in all my Mormon stories, interviews that Mormonism is always such a double edged sword because there's, we always talk about the hard stuff, but the discipline, the community, the, the morals, the values, the hard work, the ethic, the teachings of sacrifice, they help, they help and they can help foster excellence. And so it's, it's so conflicting because, you know, there's so much good there that comes out of it, even if it's not necessarily what it claims to be.

Kelly Laing [02:33:07] Which is ironic because I've had so many people say, why would you go against it when there's so much good that comes out of It. It.

John Dehlin [02:33:12] We can talk about that later. But I'm just saying, isn't it hard? It helped you in so many ways.

Kelly Laing [02:33:16] It did. And I wouldn't be going for it.

John Dehlin [02:33:18] Language. You're graduating from ocs. Like, what's not to love?

Kelly Laing [02:33:22] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:33:23] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:33:23] And, you know, ocs. Talk about experiences there. You know, I get starting getting bashed on by this. Baptist, Southern Baptist, the Southern Baptist just absolutely eviscerating me because I'm Mormon. And I was trying to play the nice Mormon and not hit back and be mean. So I just let him take all the Mormon taunts. And I remember one time at ocs, it was very interesting because I didn't lash back. I was very kind. And as I didn't lash back at him. We are about four or five weeks into Officer Candidate School, and we're in the middle of squad Bay, and everybody sleeps, dresses, everything in this big, long bay, and it's miserable. No air conditioning. And this. This Southern Baptist is just going off on me real bad. And finally, one of the other candidates speaks up and goes, dude, you just need to shut the hell up. He's like, what are you talking about? He's like, he's Mormon, man. And he starts going off on some of the Mormon things. He goes, you know, it's interesting. You sit there and preach to be this Christian that believes all these Christian principles. He goes, I'm Jewish. I don't believe a damn thing about Christ. He goes, but yet this Mormon over here, who you say isn't Christian, never talks bad about a woman. He doesn't swear. He doesn't talk in the malicious or mean ways. He's kind to everybody. He gets out, and when he's done with this stuff, he goes and helps. You're bashing him left and right. I tell you what, not being a Christian, if I'm looking at Christians, I can tell you who the Christian is. And I had a Jewish guy stand up for me, and I thought, damn, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:34:57] That's a good General Conference story talk.

Kelly Laing [02:35:00] I used that several times in church.

John Dehlin [02:35:01] I'm sure you do,

Kelly Laing [02:35:04] but. Yeah. So I come back and I'm working on my mechanical engineering degree at Utah State.

John Dehlin [02:35:10] That's a tough program.

Kelly Laing [02:35:11] Oh, it was tough as I'll get out. And hats off to Utah State. It's still tough as I'll get out.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] Go Aggies.

Kelly Laing [02:35:16] Yeah, yeah, go Aggies. I mean, still, before there was whole the for Information, Freedom of Information act and stuff like that, restraint restrictions the Navy could get or military could come in and get your GPAs and all kinds of stuff from the universities. Well, they got a hold of my gpa, mechanical engineering. They said, hey, it's pretty dang good. And I got contacted by a Navy commander and said, you're a mechanical engineering major. You got above a three point at the time. 3.8 GPA. Have you ever thought about being a nuclear submarine officer? I laughed at him. I said, no, I'm a Marine and I'm going to go be a pilot. He's like, well, I think you'd be surprised. And so he kind of talked me out the program. I didn't really listen. And a few weeks later, after I talked to this commander, I was talking to my father and mentioned it to him and laughing about it. And to my father's credit, he didn't laugh, he didn't say anything at the end. And I said, dad, are you there? He was on the phone and he goes, yeah, I'm here. He goes, you're going to look into it, aren't you Kelly? I said, no, no, not at all. I'm a Marine, dad, like you, I'm going to be a pilot. And despite the fallouts I've had with my father, in his wisdom, he said, kelly, because I've worked with a lot of former nuclear submarine officers and nuclear submarine captains. Those guys, command organizations, corporations, they know their stuff. He goes, if they're telling you you've got what it takes to do that, at least look into it. Please, for the love of it, just look into it. It, it's okay at. I will. So I looked into it. And then as I started to look into it, I took a, I went down San Diego and went around a couple of the fast attack submarines, talked with some submariners and I fell in love with it. And I realized, oh dang, what was, was the technology. I was loving my engineering degree. And I mean, you walk on board this submarine, okay? It is an engineering marvel. And I'll give you kind of the speech that I would give my brand new officers that would come down to a boat when I was captain of my submarine. I would walk down to the pier and I'd walk along the submarine. I said, okay, look in front of you here you have a 560 foot long submarine that is one of our nation's 14 crown jewels, 14 nuclear submarines. There's 14 SSBNs, the ballistic and missile submarines. We have, we have just under 100 nuclear submarines, but there's fast attack submarines, there's nuclear ballistic missile submarines, there's three different major classes of submarines that we have. And one that's called an ssgn which is a special mission ops submarine which I also served on later on. But I would tell these young officers in front of you here is one of our 14 crown jewels. Inside of her has a several hundred megawatt nuclear reactor, a propulsion system that can propel this thing up to X number of yachts. I can't see here because it's classified. Okay, okay. The inside of her has steam systems that run at X pressure and I can't socket those pressures. That has, you know, 4,500 pound air systems, 3,000 pound hydraulic systems. It has a three phase ungrounded electrical distribution system. Inside of it has 24 Trent D5 nuclear missiles with multiple warheads that has the systematic power to take out nations and to protect our nation's allies. It has several torpedoes with PBNX 105 warheads on top of it that are able. The one torpedo is able to take out an entire ship. One. Only one. And on top of it, what type of ship? Sorry, any type of surface ship.

Life as a Nuclear Submarine Officer

John Dehlin [02:38:50] Like a battleship?

Kelly Laing [02:38:51] Yeah, any battle battleship. On top of that, I said we carry all the food that we need for months and months at a time. And we make our own air, we make our own water, we make our own oxygen, we clean our own air. I said, and you take all that and we take a, and you take a look at this incredible ship. We take her and we put, take her out to the ocean and put her in the enemy's backyard. We submerge her down to bone crushing depths. And the only thing that this ship can do on her own is rust. It takes people. It takes people to work together. It takes people to study, to listen, to put. Everything is. And we can't do this alone. And the ship can't do it alone. It needs people.

John Dehlin [02:39:29] So what about the psychological demands of being submerged for weeks, months at a time?

Kelly Laing [02:39:35] Honestly, when, when you get that close as a crew, it becomes a family. It is one of the most amazing experiences ever. And that's what I miss right now about my service. I have served all my tours on a submarine where I'm ship's company. I will never be part of ship's company again. I will. You know, I could possibly have command of a squadron of submarines as a commodore or an admiral over a different group of submarines. However, I will never be the captain of a nuclear submarine again. And once you get past a certain rank and you've done it, it's kind of the up and out model. So what that meant to me is when I stepped down in San Diego and saw these fast attack submarines for the first time and saw this engineering marvel and saw the teamwork that took place and saw what the officers did both on the engineering side, the tactical side and the strategic side and that the teamwork and they enlisted, that we were there. How smart they enlist were. Holy crap. The enlisted of the nuclear engineering in the submarine force. Amazing, amazing people. I thought this is the team I want to be part of. And I came back just wide eyed. And this is after having.

John Dehlin [02:40:34] Oh, that deconverted you from being a pilot.

Kelly Laing [02:40:37] Yeah. And we sat down, we wrote the list of pros and cons for the family.

Heather Laing [02:40:41] Pros and cons together.

Kelly Laing [02:40:43] We prayed about it.

Heather Laing [02:40:45] We sure did.

Kelly Laing [02:40:46] And we made a choice. And John, I've never looked back really. And I still see those pointy nose things that go over in the sky. The Blue Angels. And I and I, I have friends that are Blue Angels pilots. In fact one of my, our best friends from the Naval Academy he was seat number one at the Blue Angels until recently in town. He's at the Naval Academy. Great guy. We've talked about all kinds of things. I still have no desire to go back and be a pilot but I sure love my submarine force and I love what we do. And I not only it's not just flying a jet, it's not just being in a jet. You're, you're there, you know. Yeah, there's a team that took care of your jet. But when you're up and they are, you're alone. It's not about teamwork at that point. It's about you and that joystick and what you do with that jet. And I don't want mean to be pejorative about what's amazing. It is, it's amazing. And I love my sisters and brothers. But a submarine, it is this entire complexity. The best way to put it is it's like Star Trek. You take this thing instead of going outer space, you put it down in the ocean. We make our own oxygen, air, everything, every aspect about it. And the engineering. If something breaks, nobody can fix it but us. We fix our own boat underway.

Heather Laing [02:41:53] Something about submarines too, I think that probably appealed to you is it's like

John Dehlin [02:41:57] a testimony meeting of us.

Heather Laing [02:41:58] Yes, it's very. Because of what they do and the closeness that they have just living together and doing things together. It's like a family. And so our different submarines that he's served on, it's just felt Like a family with the officers and wives and the people that we got to know. And the submarine as a whole, all the crew on it too, very close.

Kelly Laing [02:42:21] And that is a big thing. So in the Marine Corps it's very, very hierarchical, enlisted amongst ranks. You don't hang out together, you hang out with your same rank. The officers hang out with the officers and the enlisted, enlisted, it's very, very formal. And then I went on the submarine and all of a sudden I see that we maintain a strict formality on watch because you have to. But off watch when you're living that close together for months and months on an end doing a top secret missions. Oh, believe me, it's a family.

John Dehlin [02:42:47] And what brings respecting officers and enlisted men are all kind of, yeah, you

Kelly Laing [02:42:52] all talk, you play games together and everybody respects the ranks still. But it's not this rigid formality that Marine Corps style. And those that have served in the military will truly understand this. But the submarine force, what brings knowledge, I mean what brings respect is your level of knowledge and how well you work amongst each other, not what's on the callers necessarily. And that, that really appealed to me. And I think that comes back to, you know, from my childhood days being the fifth, you know, that middle child, seeing this family atmosphere in the military, having it all, oh dang, it was so enthralling. And having the technical, the tactical. And then part of it too is we never expected to stay for career. That was no intention. My whole desire for my military service was to fulfill my patriarchal blessing, number one, serve in the military because I love our country and then get out and get another job so I could be a stable dad, serve in the church and just have just a, you know, normal life. Normal life. We've had four, far from normal. You know, obviously that didn't work out that way. We got inspiration to keep saying, I'm glad we stayed, but it's been difficult. But that's kind of, you know, stepping back in college when I made that switch, that's why I made the switch. The submarine force just drew me in.

John Dehlin [02:44:12] Wow, that's a cool story. So, yeah, that's great.

Kelly Laing [02:44:15] And to all my submarine brethren and sisters out there, because we have females in the submarine force now, which is awesome.

John Dehlin [02:44:22] Is there like a slogan or like something you would say to fellow submariners?

Kelly Laing [02:44:26] Like, well, it's actually each ship is independent from mine. I would always yell out as Captain, as Captain, go Maine. And they would come back with a resounding fight.

John Dehlin [02:44:34] And it was just because the Maine

Kelly Laing [02:44:36] was the main ship. USS Maine was my ship. And I loved my.

John Dehlin [02:44:41] Commanded the USS Maine.

Kelly Laing [02:44:42] I did.

John Dehlin [02:44:43] And that was a nuclear submarine.

Kelly Laing [02:44:44] It was.

John Dehlin [02:44:45] That had nuclear missiles on it.

Kelly Laing [02:44:46] Nuclear missiles. And now I'm.

John Dehlin [02:44:49] So you say go main.

Kelly Laing [02:44:51] I would say go Maine and then we'd come back with fight. And it was just, it was resounding and it was neat because even on the 1mc, which is the announcing circuit on the ship, and I'd get on and speak to the ship underway and I'd make an announcement. I said go main. And I'd let loose. And you'd hear the entire ship just yell fight. Obviously if we're in a position where you're minimizing noise, we wouldn't do that.

Heather Laing [02:45:12] But be quiet on submarines sometimes.

John Dehlin [02:45:16] Yeah, but so you, so you graduated from usu, is that.

Kelly Laing [02:45:21] I did. Graduated from, uh, officer.

John Dehlin [02:45:23] You're an officer by the time you graduate.

Kelly Laing [02:45:25] Well, here's the interesting thing about that. I'm a glutton for punishment. Once I transferred over to the Navy and I got accepted in the Navy. And getting into that program is very difficult because every officer in the nuclear submarine force is interviewed by the four star at naval reactors.

John Dehlin [02:45:41] By Merle.

Kelly Laing [02:45:41] Or it is. It's the four. It is because realistically you have the chief of naval operations and you have a couple four stars underneath him. The head of the guy that's over naval reactors is one of those four stars. And so every officer that works on a submarine in a nuclear capacity and also on an aircraft carrier and a nuclear capacity has to interview one on one with this admiral. And it's nerve wracking. And I remember my interview, it was going in because you get a battery of technical interviews. They make sure that technically physics, chemistry, calculus and thermodynamics that you have what it takes. And after you meet with all these technical engineers who actually design the systems and they give you their thumbs up, then you go and you meet with the admiral and he does this personality type interview to make sure you're the right fit. And so I walked into the admiral's office and I remember it's very.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] Is this in Annapolis?

Kelly Laing [02:46:32] This is actually in Washington D.C. okay.

John Dehlin [02:46:35] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:46:35] So I go in his office and I sit down and he has all my paperwork spread out before him.

John Dehlin [02:46:39] And you're how old?

Kelly Laing [02:46:40] At this time I'm 23.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] The Pentagon.

Kelly Laing [02:46:46] Or actually it was, it was at this time. It was in Crystal City. They've now shifted over to Navy Yard.

John Dehlin [02:46:51] That's right, Virginia.

Kelly Laing [02:46:53] And so I, I sit Down. And they. The stories of the interviews with Admiral Rickover are just really, really entertaining.

John Dehlin [02:47:02] Is he still there?

Kelly Laing [02:47:03] No.

John Dehlin [02:47:04] Okay.

Heather Laing [02:47:06] People who did interview with him, Admiral

Kelly Laing [02:47:07] Rickover would have had a chair that the front legs were cut 3 inches shorter, so it was very uncomfortable to sit in. He would put people in the closet. If he didn't like their answer, he would kick him out immediately. He had one person talk to him.

John Dehlin [02:47:20] Why didn't he put people in the closet?

Kelly Laing [02:47:21] Oh, he didn't like their answer. He'd say, no, get in the closet. He'd stick the candidates in the closet and make him wait there while he was going through interviews with other people. Yeah, the Rickover years were notorious.

John Dehlin [02:47:31] He just tortured people.

Kelly Laing [02:47:32] Oh, yes. Stuff that definitely is not kosher and would not get away with now. And I'm not, you know, talking trash about Admiral Rickover because that guy did some amazing things for this country. It was just a different time.

John Dehlin [02:47:45] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:47:45] So anyways, I go in for my interview, paperwork's all laid out. That four star looked at me after what seemed like an eternity, and he looks up, he goes, you're a Marine? I said, yes, sir, I am. He goes, first Marine I've ever had come through my office. I said, what do you think about being a. In the Navy, being a Marine? And I looked at him, I said, sir, if I could be on submarines and stay a Marine, I would. And he smiled and goes, good enough. Welcome to my Navy, son. Shook my head, hand and dismissed me.

John Dehlin [02:48:19] Why was that a good answer?

Kelly Laing [02:48:21] Because normally you get grilled with all kinds of other questions. He asked me that one question and that was it. He liked my answer. The fact that, you know, because the Marine Corps has a very strong pride in its force and its legacy and its history, and the Navy does too, but not near to the extent that the Marine Corps does. And so for me to say, hey, I want to be part of submarines and give up this legacy, this brotherhood of Marine Corps officers, that said a lot to him because he knew the Marines through.

John Dehlin [02:48:45] So it showed loyalty to both. It did, in effect. Is that right?

Kelly Laing [02:48:48] I think so, yeah. And so I walked out and changed over, switched over from Marine Corps to Navy and then found out that my Marine Corps Officer candidate school was not sufficient. They made me go through. Yes, they made me go through Navy Officer Candidate School. So I did three different commissioning boot camps, basically.

John Dehlin [02:49:07] Wow.

Kelly Laing [02:49:08] And that was, that was tough, but it was, it was good. Well, Navy OCS was not near with as tough as Marine Corps ocs. Where's that it was in Pensacola, Florida at the time. They've since since moved it up to Newport, Rhode Island. So got my commission, went down down to Pensacola, Florida for that Heather came last few weeks of officer candidate school we rented a condo on the beach.

John Dehlin [02:49:28] Loved it.

Kelly Laing [02:49:30] Britain was born at that point.

Heather Laing [02:49:31] He was just a baby. Yep.

Kelly Laing [02:49:33] He was born in Logan, Utah too.

John Dehlin [02:49:35] And that's number two.

Kelly Laing [02:49:37] That's number two.

John Dehlin [02:49:37] Okay.

Heather Laing [02:49:38] It's number two.

Kelly Laing [02:49:39] And life started in a professional career. And from there I went to nuclear power school in Charleston, South Carolina in prototype. So for a year, in three months you go through some intensive technical training to get you qualified on a nuclear reactor, to get you the certificates, what you need, the baseline knowledge.

John Dehlin [02:49:55] So you learned how to operate a nuclear reactor?

Kelly Laing [02:49:59] Well, we do. You learn all the ins and outs, the theory and the construction some incredible technologies that our nation have come up with for some very smart men and women. And you learn all that basis and how to do it and then you go and actually do it. And then they transfer you to your first submarine. And your job on the first submarine is to qualify on that nuclear power plant and get certified on that nuclear power plant both in port and at sea.

John Dehlin [02:50:21] Why do subs need to be nuclear?

Kelly Laing [02:50:24] So that's great question. So subs. The advantage of a submarine is it's the ultimate stealth planet platform. We can put a submarine in any enemy's backyard, hypothetically speaking. And if anybody wants to really know the true story, true stories. Wait a couple years and they'll come out in books.

John Dehlin [02:50:42] Books.

Kelly Laing [02:50:42] All right, read Blind Man's Bluff. That's a great one to tell you some of the stories. Yeah, stories. The Cold, Cold war. But our submarine force is the ultimate stealth platform. No, you know, our enemies can't see it, they can't detect it. We can get close. You have an incredible.

John Dehlin [02:50:56] Is there radar?

Kelly Laing [02:50:57] Sonar, like so the technicality means.

Guest 2 [02:51:01] Right, I'm sorry, that's what stealth means, right?

John Dehlin [02:51:03] It is.

Guest 2 [02:51:03] Well, they are better than the sonar.

Kelly Laing [02:51:05] So we design our submarines, especially the U.S. they're so quiet it that we minimize every sound. And there's some very top secret and secret technologies that we employ to keep our submarines quiet. And we make them quieter and quieter every year. And that's part of it.

John Dehlin [02:51:22] I had no idea.

Kelly Laing [02:51:23] Because you need that submarine submarine to not only protect the aircraft carriers, but to also go and do a power projection forward is what we call it in the Navy to take with warheads and put them on foreheads. Because the difference is, is you know, if I have A surface ship that can launch missiles, it can only launch them. It has to be so far away from some enemy's coastline, otherwise that country's missiles and stuff can come in and get that surface ship.

John Dehlin [02:51:44] Or airplanes.

Kelly Laing [02:51:44] Or airplanes, whatever. If I can get submarine in extremely close underneath all those surveillance systems and shoot missiles without ever being detected and getting in on all those systems and get closer, I can get in deeper with those missiles. I can do stuff that surface ships and jets cannot under different constructs.

John Dehlin [02:52:01] Even now, even in 2021.

Kelly Laing [02:52:02] Yes. Under certain conditions. Correct.

John Dehlin [02:52:04] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:52:04] And, and that's where I'll have to be careful on some of the things I say. But we have the world's premier submarine force and our nation invests an incredible amount. And I will tell you right now, the number one priority in the Department of Defense is our nuclear ballistic missile submarine through and through. CNO has stated that open source C and O is the chief of Naval operations. And that has been that way since Admiral Richardson. In fact, several high level ranking leaders and, and Secretary of Defense has already stated it was the submarine force that won the Cold War for us because of our nuclear, nuclear posturing and our ability.

John Dehlin [02:52:38] China and Russia, they're concerned about our

Kelly Laing [02:52:40] subs and we are concerned about theirs, right? Rightfully so.

John Dehlin [02:52:44] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [02:52:45] And you know, and they're always trying to play catch up and you know, we watch them close and it's great to have capable adversaries. But it's also, you know, if you've watched the news, when you see some of these submarines that will go down, down and sink, Russia's had some in the past few years.

John Dehlin [02:53:00] They fail.

Kelly Laing [02:53:01] They fail, people die, they lose the whole crew. Oh my gosh, the Russians, the Colombians.

John Dehlin [02:53:06] How many will be in a crew?

Kelly Laing [02:53:07] Depends on the submarine. But on average for my crew, it's 185 men and women. For a Typhoon class, it could be a lot more. For a fast attack submarine, you could be as low as 100, you know, 1620.

John Dehlin [02:53:18] So some of these countries have had entire subs lost.

Kelly Laing [02:53:21] Yeah, yeah. For anybody that's out there wants to just Google lost submarines and you'll see a list of tons of submarines that are lost. In fact, that's why we are called the Silent service. During World War II, percentage wise, the submarine force lost more, more sailors and submarines than. More deaths than, you know, per capita of who we are than any other force.

John Dehlin [02:53:43] Wow.

Kelly Laing [02:53:44] Even airplanes, we would go to sea and they would never come back. Silent service. And it's not just because we're Quiet and stealthy. But part of us too is we go to sea and the missions we fulfill. It's tough because I went and done things for this nation, which I am so incredibly proud of. Presidential tasking that there's been many times I've been at periscope depth or down at depth and doing a mission set and thought, excuse my French, but holy shit, I can't believe I'm doing this. And what we do and we train for and train for and train for and finally go and do, and it is an incredibly professional force.

John Dehlin [02:54:21] Can you give us examples of type submissions or is that not even something you can do? Like, I don't want to ever get you close to in trouble.

Kelly Laing [02:54:32] But like, yeah, and this is where I got to be very careful.

John Dehlin [02:54:36] Even stuff that's already known or talked about or whatever, just to give people a sense for the types of missions that.

Kelly Laing [02:54:42] Let me talk about some of the Cold War missions.

John Dehlin [02:54:44] Okay, this is before you.

Kelly Laing [02:54:46] This is before me. So under the Cold War, we developed tactics, techniques and procedures where we do intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance where you can get very close to a country. And you can. You can imagine if we have satellites, look and see everything, and we watch each other's satellites, and everybody knows when satellites are coming over. But if you can get a little sensor to come up out of the water that can do stuff and pick stuff up or let your imagination go wild. Hypothetically speaking, if you can have a little sensor or pick something up or do something and bring that back, it can be a game changer for us later on when you can trail another submarine and they don't know you're there, that's a game changer. Another surface ship or when you can collect intelligence for a future time of war, it can be an absolute game changer. And I should probably stop there and just say, go look at things that have been open source, authorized, because that's where I should limit. And part of it is, you know, we talk about in the church, they're secret and they're sacred. Well, in the military, there's a lot of secrets. And for rightfully so, our secrets keep our nation safe. And we keep them at the proper and the right level with trusted, vetted people so that we protect this nation and our allies, our national interests, regardless of the conspiracy theories that are out there. There's a lot. But I tell you, the submarine force is absolutely phenomenal, the most professional group of organization I've ever worked with. We are so hypercritical about ourselves, and that's One of the things that was very difficult being both a member of the church and being part of the submarine forces. In summary force, if something's wrong, we speak up, we say something. In fact, we train all of my enlisted, hey, if an officer gives you an order that's not right, it's illegal and lawful, or if it's technically not right, you don't obey it, you speak up, you say something. And the reason is it is phenomenal because we teach this culture of questioning attitude. In fact, the director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion, he has these seven pillars of watch standing principles and one of them is quite questioning attitude. We teach every member of our submarine force, you have to have a questioning attitude watch team backup, that not only do you have a questioning attitude, you've watched team backup, meaning you are going to say something too. The number one other one is integrity. You're going to have the integrity to speak up, say something, and if you make a mistake, you say I made a mistake. I love the submarine force for that very reason. The formality, the forceful backup, the questioning attitude, the integrity, the level of knowledge. These are all these principles we teach, teach. It's absolutely amazing. But it's. We indoctrinate and it is an indoctrination our sailors to believe this. And we take the average citizen from our nation and we teach in this and help them get to this point. Are we perfect? No. But that's the beautiful thing about it is when we're wrong, we say we're wrong, we speak up, we shout it out, we teach everybody and we spread our lessons learned. That's the difference in the church. I can't speak up, I can't shout out, out. I can't say this is wrong without getting censored, similar to what you've seen, you've experienced in many others. And that's what, that's also drew me in. So that was a very long answer as to what brought me into the summary force. Yeah, but that's what kept me in too.

John Dehlin [02:58:05] And the people and I, you know there's going to be people with different views on the military. There's going to be listeners that are like, go, go military, rah rah. And then there's others that are like, ugly America. America abuses people. Military is the arm of evil in the world. And you know, I've studied history a bit and, and I'm going to say there's truth to all sides of that. And I'm just going to say that having studied a lot about world wars, you know, we have not had a world war since 1945. And you know, I learned in the Cold War, I learned about mutual assured destruction and just this idea that once everybody has enough weaponry, everyone realizing that a war means the end of everybody then allows for us to have peace. It's kind of a weird dynamic. And I'm just super grateful that I or none of my children have ever had to go on active duty in a real war. And that's something that multiple generations now have been saved from. Because the history of the world prior to 1945, in every part of the world, Asia, Europe, America, everywhere has been war. Yes, that's been. And, and we've had this uninterrupted sort of like 80, 90, 80 year era of no world wars because of, you know, you know, the, the nuclear weapons and kind of the work that you and others do. Am I, do I have that right in your John?

Kelly Laing [02:59:32] I am so glad you know that because we study nuclear deterrence and that's one of our main things. So Sun Tzu, great philosopher on war. There's a lot of good quotes. Art of war. Yes. And there's all kinds of people argue how you pronounce his name, but I pronounce it Sun Tzu. Anyways, the case with that is a true warrior detests war. If you're a true warrior and you like to go to war, get out of the war business. You're not in the right. And I say that to anybody in the military. If you like war, you need to reevaluate why you're there. A true warrior wants peace. And war is the last thing we do. And the way we do is we train. We train, we train and we flex the muscle so that it prevents that war. You're absolutely right. That nuclear, those nuclear weapons, as much as I would love to have ground zero, no nuclear weapons in the world, as captain of a nuclear submarine, I owned those weapons. I was responsible for those. And my current job now I have a play, a very big part in the. Where we place those weapons and what we do with those weapons and how we target and everything. And I'll tell you this, for anybody that's out there, we don't target mass populace. We shoot and we go if we had to. You know, we look for the things that are going to make it so our enemies are crippled to stop war. That's what it's all about. And I can give you that, my 100% insurance. If that gets me from fired from the military, so be it. It won't but my, my point with

John Dehlin [03:00:55] that is it's not about maximizing civilian

Kelly Laing [03:00:57] casualties, it's actually minimizing civilian casualties. That is our entire goal of civilization, especially the U.S. the lawyers, we have so many lawyers that actually help us make sure that what we do is as civil as possible. Our goal and our job is to deter war. As a nuclear submarine captain, if I had to fire those weapons, we failed as a nation, point blank, we have failed because my number one job is nuclear deterrence, not nuclear execution war, it's nuclear deterrence. And so the longer we go, as you just stated, without a major world war, we've won. We've won because. And if you look at the number of wars you stated, the number of wars go down, the casualties for more have gone down. And even President Obama, who went in with a ground zero philosophy into his presidency and saying, I'm going to get rid of nuclear weapons, once he saw the information and the classified information that was out there, he did what every good, smart reasoning, thinking human being does is they take that information. Critical thinker say, okay, I now see I was wrong. We are going to maintain a certain level because we have to prevent nuclear war. And that's what liberal Democrat, Republican, conservative, doesn't matter. Once you see the data, that's what it is. And for that reason, I detest war. I hope we never have to use those things and if I die and we've never used them again, I'll consider it a success and that my life meant something because we saved lives, period.

John Dehlin [03:02:20] Isn't that cool, Kara?

Guest 2 [03:02:21] Yeah, that's really interesting.

John Dehlin [03:02:22] Is that fun to hear?

Guest 2 [03:02:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really interesting.

Deployments, Family Separation, and Marriage Strain

John Dehlin [03:02:27] Okay, well, there's so many different areas we can go, I guess I want to hear a little bit about. I mean, you spent seven years in submarines on active duty, away from the family or something like that. I'm curious. Six years, six and a half years. I'm curious like how the family works a more. And family, how does that work when you're gone for so long?

Heather Laing [03:02:51] Wow. Sometimes you just survive.

John Dehlin [03:02:54] Was he literally away six years?

Heather Laing [03:02:57] Not all in a row, but if

John Dehlin [03:02:59] he counted, what would the average length of, of a mission be or what?

Heather Laing [03:03:03] So it depends on what kind of submarine the first tour was on the SSBNs and so they kind of had a pretty great schedule, but I would say three months was.

John Dehlin [03:03:14] So he'd be gone three months at a time.

Heather Laing [03:03:16] Three months. He'd be home for two and then go home.

John Dehlin [03:03:18] Two what? Two months.

Heather Laing [03:03:19] Two months and then Go home.

John Dehlin [03:03:20] So on three months off, two months. On three months.

Heather Laing [03:03:25] So that was when our kids were the first two, they were little in kindergarten age. And so we just kind of, we just did it sort of thing. And then when you were home, you pretty much were attached to a boat too. You still did stuff, you still trained and stuff to go on it again. So. But, and also I'd have to say too, something about submarines is that when they are gone, they are gone. And you don't, especially back in the day, like the first times we were on submarines, my communication with him was they call them family Grant. And it was 50 words. We got maybe five of them per patrol, which, that three month time period. And you could take 50 words in these boxes and you could say what was going on.

John Dehlin [03:04:18] Whoa, that's how you communicated with it?

Heather Laing [03:04:21] Yes. And so, and in that we could not do anything that was like, you couldn't say like sick. You couldn't even say like the kids were sick or you couldn't even say anything that was like, like not going to help them on their mental state or something. Anything like that you couldn't mention. So you just had to do the basics and get really good at code. But then if they looked like it was code, that was sketchy too.

John Dehlin [03:04:50] So there's no phone calls during that time. No, no email.

Kelly Laing [03:04:53] So when we go on mission, we go under what we call missions control. There is no electronic transmission that will go off the submarine because anything that you send off, electronic, electronic, electronic magnet, anything can be detected. And we were in a complete stealth situation. We are on collection mode only for stuff we are collecting or getting ready to shoot if necessary. And so communications are limited and those three to four months out initially, so that 16 and a half years is a compilation of all the deployments together underwater, away from the home. And so when we realize just how much I've been gone, it does hit home. And you realize she was a single mother for a long time and she kicked ass. She took names and she raised a phenomenal family when I was gone and when I came back, a lot of families struggle with that integration of the father coming back. And a lot of families struggle because when dad goes away, it's this sad, depressing thing. She kept me alive in the kids, in my eyes. And so when I came back, it was dad's home and it was exciting and I didn't have to be the disciplinarian right away and I could just work into the fun. And then it was.

Heather Laing [03:05:57] I tried to some Things I tried to do, I tried to never. Even if I was having a bad day, I was sad, anything like that. I would never blame it on him. I didn't blame it on him in my mind, but I would never vocalize like that to the kids because I didn't want to put any light in like any idea into their mind like, oh, dad left us or dad did this because it's not like he wanted to. And so I tried to be positive in that way and, and then talk about him. He was definitely a part of our lives. And then yeah, and it's the people classes for like sailors coming home and how to integrate back. But we just tried to welcome him back in same roles. I didn't find it as hard as I think some did. Not that I'm better than anyone, but. And it was, it was hard. It was hard. There's a story I always remember that just kind of paints a great picture of one day I took. They had ear. Their ears hurt, two of the kids. And then I had something and so I took us all to the doctor and like there were like two ear infections, maybe strep throat in there and stuff. And I went to the pharmacy and I got the prescriptions and this, the pharmacist lady handed me a bag like this brown bag this big of medicine. She's like, oh honey, I hope you have some help at home. I'm like, uh huh. And then I like took my bag and we went home and you know, you just do it. You just do survival techniques. We stayed inside a lot. We did just like we went to the library a lot and we made it fun. I also have a thing where I'm like, I can choose whether this sucks, but I can choose to be really, really upset about it or I can choose to make the best of it. And so I always try to, to make the best of it and because I get to choose if I'm going to be like feel like crap and. And sometimes you just do and you roll with it and. But then you, you put on your happy face and keep on going. So.

Kelly Laing [03:07:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:57] And you were living in what cities during this time?

Heather Laing [03:08:00] The first one we lived in a few. So Georgia. Kings Bay, Georgia is where subs there.

John Dehlin [03:08:06] Okay.

Heather Laing [03:08:06] That's where his first one was. Second one was in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. So. So we lived in Hawaii and then the next one, the last two were in Washington, Bremerton area. So his exo tour and co tour were in Washington state and we then

Kelly Laing [03:08:22] in between sea tours you get A shore tour. And we lived in so many places. Alabama, Nebraska, Connecticut, South Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Washington, Hawaii. We've lived all over the East Coast, West Coast, Central. We've lived in so many different places. And then on top of that, the travel, when I would get home and we'd get vacation periods. One thing that I so appreciate Heather on is growing up in a house where we didn't have money. I remember at 16, people would ask, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I would look at him deadpan, and I would say, rich. I'm like, no, no. What do you want to be? I'm like, rich. Because I would see all the kids at school that had all this money, and I didn't have it, but I saw happiness in that. So when we got married, Heather, we were going through our engagement and making lists of all the stuff we were going to do and not do in marriage. As we were sitting there talking, the last thing she said was, promise me one other thing. I said, sure, anything for you. She said, promise me that when we get married, we'll focus on making experiences and not having things. And I was like, I wanted the things, but I wanted her more. And so I made her the promise. And so knowing that focus, my focus then became, let's make experiences. And so when I was there, I was home and on shore duties, we would travel. And we have traveled all over the world, and we've had some great experiences.

Heather Laing [03:09:42] Yeah, growing up, too. My dad didn't make a lot of money being a meat cutter for Albertsons, but he had a fund, and he would put money every month or just go into these different funds. One was Christmas and the other was vacation. So. So we always would take a week vacation when I was growing up in the summer, and they weren't really far places because we lived in Idaho. So we'd come here to Utah, we'd go to Park City, or we'd go just to Lagoon and camp or Cherry Hill in Kaysville. And we do fun. That was our vacations. But we spent the week together as a family just having fun. And we didn't eat out a lot ever. But then on vacation, we would do fun things, different things like that that weren't normal in our normal lives. And then. And they always made Christmas super magical and, like, decorations. My dad would make them and my mom, and it was just a magical time. So I just grew up. They didn't have a lot of money, but they made it really special, like childhood and our life.

Kelly Laing [03:10:41] So we tried to do that with our children. And the model that her parents taught her and we had experiences and that was a lot of fun. And so, you know, as you interview our children, that's maybe something that comes out as kind of the travel and experiences cruises. We would always look for cruise deals and whatever beaches we could get to. That was a lot of fun.

John Dehlin [03:10:59] So when you're home for a couple months, are you working that whole time too? Because I'm thinking That's not just eight hours a day. When you're on a sub for three months, it's 16 to 20, maybe more hours a day. So you'd think if you were home for a couple months, you almost think you would not have to work kind of like firefighters. You're right.

Kelly Laing [03:11:25] And that would be logical. However, the submarine force, it's intense and it comes down manning and training and proficiency. And the way the model is set up is you're home but you're training. And so it's very difficult to get all those times away. So we're authorized 30 days a month of leave a year and that includes weekends that we take. And so we take them and we enjoy it. But when I'm home, I'm still working, I'm still working a lot.

John Dehlin [03:11:49] That's intense. Yeah, it's an intense branch of service.

Kelly Laing [03:11:52] Very, very intense. And submariners also pride themselves on the amount of work we do. We squeeze every last bit of work out of our people.

John Dehlin [03:12:02] So if I were to ask someone who is kind of really well versed in the military overall, is there a perception that submariners are kind of like top notch soldiers, so to speak? I'm asking someone who's biased, of course.

Kelly Laing [03:12:16] No, you're absolutely right. In fact, Forbes 500 for quite a few years used to list as the most desirable person to hire into corporation would be a former submarine officer. The submariners, both the officer enlisted when they come out of the military, are sought for and hired at much higher salaries. All the headhunters, Lee Cohen, Lucas Group, a lot of the headhunters will tell you that. And it's the statistics and the data are there.

John Dehlin [03:12:40] It's because the training.

Kelly Laing [03:12:41] And the training, yep. The ability to critically analyze, to come in an organization, find problems, fix problems, technical competency, leadership, there's all kinds of reasons, team building, the list goes on and on. And so the, the joke is, you know, in the military, you want to fix a problem, put a submariner in charge and we'll find the problem and we'll fix it. And it May not always be fun, but we'll fix it. And so that's.

John Dehlin [03:13:05] That.

Kelly Laing [03:13:05] That is. That truly is. And I'm thinking that I'm kind of a pariah in the submarine force because most submarine officers have this super high iq and I don't think mines are really that high. But I think what I think I bring is a much higher eq, the emotional intelligence and. Which is very different, which has got me into trouble a couple times, which won't go into those details, but it's enough to where I've. I watch out for my people probably more than others do. And what I have come to find out is my passion. What I thought was the technical and the tactical and the strategic. It's not. It's people. It's totally the people. I love leading people. And what gives me the most joy in life is to find and see somebody step up, get up, lift themselves up, become better. To find out that they can do better than they've done in the past. To find passion in life and to. To change their lives. That to me is fulfillment in life.

John Dehlin [03:14:03] Leadership.

Kelly Laing [03:14:03] Leadership.

John Dehlin [03:14:05] So for. For the. Before we bring your sons on, I guess I want to say, is there anything else about your military service that you want to talk about? And then let's move to kind of church and, and do your kind of. Your church journey up until the point where we want to have your sons.

Kelly Laing [03:14:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:14:24] Take over. Is that. Does that make sense?

Kelly Laing [03:14:25] That's perfectly fine. Because I would love to get off the military part too.

John Dehlin [03:14:28] Oh, I. I love.

Guest 2 [03:14:29] I thought it was really interesting.

Kelly Laing [03:14:30] Oh, yeah, I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [03:14:31] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:14:32] The military. You know, I've been living this now for 25 years. At some point we'll hang up our hat and retire and figure out when that's going to be. But from the military side of the house, it's been one of these things where we never expected to stay, we never expected to make a career of it. But having done so, the growth that has come from it, the experiences are absolutely incredible. And what we've gone through together, what we've grown together, I wouldn't change it.

Heather Laing [03:15:03] I also feel something that I'm very grateful for in that is this the opportunity. I never imagined growing up that I would live so many different places. I just. I guess it wasn't very imaginative. I just imagined I'd live in Idaho for the rest of my life, have a, you know, same as my parents sort of thing and, and grow up like that. But then. But the opportunities it has given me to live so Many places and to meet so many people and to see so many different ways to live and so. And just how great people are and not just the. The narrow view of just because, like, you know, Idaho, like I was saying, is it huge? Like Mormons. That's all I was around, just that view. I had that view of life and. And the military has given me such a wider view of people and life and. And humans and how great they are and they're. And I love that, and I'm so grateful for that.

John Dehlin [03:15:59] You've enjoyed that.

Kelly Laing [03:16:02] I will. Mark Twain said something that's very interesting, and I'm going to butcher the quote a little bit, but if you want to remove prejudice, travel.

John Dehlin [03:16:11] Travel is fatal to prejudice.

Kelly Laing [03:16:12] Travel is fatal to prejudice. And the military travels have been incredible for us because not only have we brought. Seen the world in our Navy travels, but we've also seen the best that the world has to offer. That's one of the things I love about the military is what it does is it brings. It's a melting pot of white, black, orange, yellow, Asian, straight, gay, lesbian, transgender. You name it. You bring it. Every background, and you bring all these people from all these diverse backgrounds, and you put them together in a shell or in a hole or a ship or a unit, and they have to go and then train together, learn to fight together and become. And all of a sudden, your eyes start to open, you realize, dang, I may not be as special as I thought I was. I may not have had all the right answers. My culture is not necessarily perfect or right. And that's. You start to see and value people differently, and that's been incredible.

John Dehlin [03:17:14] Can I just say, I've studied a little bit about US History, and I think one thing people don't know, and I think it was Eisenhower, but like, the US Military has played a really important role in advancing civil rights in the United States. Because at some point, I. I think it was around Eisenhower, World War II, or right after it, they integrate the forces where blacks and whites are serving together. And that was an important sort of milestone to then help the rest of the country become more comfortable with, frankly, whites and blacks and even men and women sometimes working together.

Kelly Laing [03:17:50] You are spot on with that. I remember in 2008, we were at the war College and the Tuskegee Airmen, the remaining survivors came and spoke to. To us.

John Dehlin [03:17:58] And afterwards, men of color. The Fly Airmen, right.

Kelly Laing [03:18:01] Yes. The World War II pilots that. This. This special group of pilots, but they were putting their own little wing because they're Black. And they didn't want to integrate and their stories, but to listen to their stories. And they fought for our country and the stuff they did and the prejudice that was still levied against them even after the war.

John Dehlin [03:18:17] And I thought, didn't we experiment on those guys like with some unethical experiments?

Kelly Laing [03:18:21] I don't know about the Tuskegee Airmen on that one, but if there was. But I know that their personal stories of valor.

John Dehlin [03:18:28] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:18:29] And absolute love and belief of this country and fighting for civil rights. And I grew up in a home where, you know, because of the Ezra Taft Benson philosophy, which is. And then our doctrine, blacks are, you know, it's a mark of Kane. They're less than.

John Dehlin [03:18:44] They have to be inferior.

Heather Laing [03:18:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:45] According to Mormon.

Kelly Laing [03:18:47] But then as I go out in my mission, I go out in the military, some of the absolute best officers enlisted out there are blacks. Asians. Fill in the blank. It's not just white. Whites do not have lgbt.

Heather Laing [03:18:59] Right.

Kelly Laing [03:18:59] Lgbt. Right. And even in the military, I remember, you know, the military was very homophobic place for a long, long time. We could not talk about anything other than joking around about it. But if somebody came out, there was. If you came out and found out you're gay, they were kicked out immediately. Then there was the Clinton policy of don't ask, don't tell. And then I lived under that for a long time of the don't ask, don't tell. And I remember a situation on one of my submarines and I'm going to protect the individual. But he was a phenomenal sailor. In fact, on several of our mission sets, his recommendations as an unlisted sailor are what saved the ship from getting counter detected and putting ourselves in a real bad position. But this guy was. I mean, he was the model sailor. In fact, we advanced him because of his. How good he was.

John Dehlin [03:19:41] Was.

Kelly Laing [03:19:43] And during a time after watch, when we were still in the badlands, we're doing after watch cleanup and cleaning the ship. Because we have to clean the ship after every watch. The ships we keep immaculate underway. And I find this piece of paper and I open up this piece of paper and I look at it and my heart sings. Because what it is, is it's a letter from an officer to this enlisted and they're gay. And this is the don't ask, don't tell period.

John Dehlin [03:20:12] And I realized you're an orthodox believing Mormon.

Kelly Laing [03:20:14] Orthodox, believing Mormon. And I'm sitting here thinking, oh, damn, what do I do? And talk about a moral conundrum. What my church teaches me is this what my military obligation is this. What I see in front of me is a sailor that is absolutely vital

John Dehlin [03:20:32] to my ship and a human being

Kelly Laing [03:20:34] and a human being that I love as a human being. And I had to make a moral decision at this point.

John Dehlin [03:20:44] There's something that's got to give.

Kelly Laing [03:20:45] Something's got to give. It's like dissonance between like, ah, how am I going to resolve this? Am I going to. And so I walked up to him, nat boys, I called his name, he jumps up, he pops up and he's like, yes sir. Just like a good sailor does. And I pulled that piece of paper out and I showed him and hold my hand. And he decides to go down and look at it and he goes, why? And he realizes, he grabs for his pocket because he realizes that as he was cleaning up that letter fell out and he's mortified because he now knows that I know that he's gay.

John Dehlin [03:21:15] And if you're discovered at this point, what happens?

Kelly Laing [03:21:17] He gets kicked out. Next port of call, he's off the ship, you're kicked off, he's out of the Navy.

John Dehlin [03:21:22] Out of the Navy. That's intense. I didn't people realize that that was the policy.

Kelly Laing [03:21:27] That was the policy. And once you knew once again, when you know better, you do better. The Navy became figured things out and they got better. But they also apologized for what they, the wrongs they did. We'll come back to that. It's a huge part of it.

John Dehlin [03:21:41] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:21:43] As I held that letter and got dissonance between my lives in my head, I've hand put that letter out, he takes it and he puts it in his pocket and I put my hand down out and I shake his hand and pull him in and give him a bro hug and I just said be careful, I need you. And we never spoke of it again until. Well on the ship he's still in the Navy and he still has a very high ranking enlisted and he has done the rules where you should have booted him.

John Dehlin [03:22:16] Oh, I should have booted him. Yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:22:18] But we didn't. And I still stand by the decision even if somebody wants to kick me out today for that.

John Dehlin [03:22:22] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:22:23] Why? Because it was morally the right thing to do. And fast forward and that's what we'll get to next. If I would have done the wrong thing, how could I look at my sons in the eyes after I found out that they're gay? I couldn't have. That would have eaten me up. John, moral rightness does not come from an institution. Military, church, Civil moral rightness is how we treat one another. At the end of the day, are you a better person because of my interactions with you and vice versa. And if that's the case, that's morally right. That's where I stand, man.

John Dehlin [03:23:17] I'm glad you made that call. For your sake and for your sons and for him.

Kelly Laing [03:23:23] We have a ton of military stories I could tell and I'm. That's one thing I've promised Heather, post military. I'm going to write a book. I've got a ton of stories I'm going to write down. And those Navy experiences are fun. And I'm looking at a list of them right now, one of which I'll get into later on. But it's more coming into the academy's timeframe. Serving at the United States Naval Academy, me.

John Dehlin [03:23:43] So when you leave, kind of commanding.

Kelly Laing [03:23:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:47] Submarines.

Kelly Laing [03:23:47] Yeah. Well, I guess I'll just put a note in there. So from 2015 to 2018, I was the commanding officer of USS Maine, a nuclear ballistic missile submarine. That tour in and of itself was the most magical, fun, hard, intense, crazy, exhausting, inspiring, overwhelming, life changing, absolutely phenomenal experience of my life next to being a father and husband.

John Dehlin [03:24:11] I mean, even if you're an admiral, I'm guessing that you have to have served your time commanding a submarine, right?

Kelly Laing [03:24:17] Yes, for the most part.

John Dehlin [03:24:19] Like getting your wings as a pilot.

Kelly Laing [03:24:21] And it's interesting to say that because all the admirals and flag officers will flat out tell you my best tour was command. Command of a submarine, command of a surface ship, command of an air wing. Command is the best. It's not because it's about the power. It's about the difference you get to make in the lives of people. You set the tone of the command. The personality of the ship is the personality of the commanding officer. And yes, I did bring a lot of my Mormon principles in, not overtly, but who I am, care for your people, love for your people, service to

John Dehlin [03:24:53] your people, unrighteous dominion, lack of unrighteous,

Kelly Laing [03:24:57] trying not to that it's not about the position. You know, one of the things I told my people, all my sailors and I told all my midshipmen academy, this is I want some principle I stand up on. Life is not about. Sorry. Happiness is not power. It's not about position, it's not about pride, it's not about prominence, it's about people. That's what life's about. And if you want to find true happiness, forget the position, power, pride, prominence, possessions, forget those five P'S go for the P of the people. That's where happiness is at. And even amongst all we're going through now, I will still say happiness is the people because at the end of the day, position goes away, power goes away, pride goes away. Hopefully prominence goes away and possessions do too. But the difference you make it in somebody's life will never be forgotten.

Commanding a Nuclear Submarine and Church Leadership

John Dehlin [03:25:55] So you commanded the Maine for three years.

Kelly Laing [03:25:57] Three years.

John Dehlin [03:25:58] That's a long time.

Kelly Laing [03:25:59] It is.

John Dehlin [03:26:00] And how many of those classes, submarines are there?

Kelly Laing [03:26:02] 14.

John Dehlin [03:26:03] Only 14.

Kelly Laing [03:26:04] 14.

John Dehlin [03:26:05] So for all the people that serve as submarine officers or enlisted or whatever, only 14 at a time or, you know, only a small percentage end up commanding a submarine.

Kelly Laing [03:26:18] You have a better chance of becoming a senator or a representative in this country than a commanding officer of a nuclear submarine.

John Dehlin [03:26:23] Really?

Kelly Laing [03:26:25] Statistically.

John Dehlin [03:26:26] Wow.

Kelly Laing [03:26:27] And some people say, well, it's harder to do the other one. I would say, well, I'll challenge you on that one. Go be a nuclear submarine on captain. And I will throw out shout out there. A lot of people say, well, it's all about the officers. I will tell you this. Shout out to my enlisted. Never ever forget to enlisted. It's on the backs of the chiefs and the enlisted of our Navy that the Navy goes to see through and through. The hard job is held by the enlisted and by the chief petty officers. So to my chief petty officers, to my enlisted out there, thank you for what you did because you made my tour possible and I love you through and through, and I'll forever salute you for that. And I got a lot of my crew that are excited to hear this interview, partially because I was so TBM while I was captain to see me come out. So.

John Dehlin [03:27:12] All right, what else do you want to talk about before we bring your sons on? I was going to ask you this, Heather, what's it? So this is a patriarchy. Mormonism is a patriarchy. Your patriarch's off to sea. Like, how is religion going on in your household while the patriarch is off to sea so much. And then let's usher that into kind of your Mormon lives as a Mormon family.

Heather Laing [03:27:37] So. Well, maybe we should last the boys when they come up, maybe they have a different view of it than I do. I did my best. When they were little, we read like Book of Mormon stories to them, the little picture ones or like comic books. And so we did things like that. And I always went to church with them, even when Kelly was at sea. I never missed. I always would go, even if I with them, just me in tow.

John Dehlin [03:28:02] It's not Fun to take four kids alone.

Heather Laing [03:28:04] No, it's not. We did it a lot, but we did it. We went to all our meetings and I did. I had callings that were different ones. When we lived in Georgia, I was relieved. Society president for a time or in the presidency for quite a time. And I always say my daughter probably thinks that her second home was the church house because I was there so often, had the key and had to go in and do stuff. And when she was little, her and I were at the church house. But I just did it. I just like, okay, this is what you do. And I did it. And it wasn't bad. I was grateful. It was a good community. People were. If I needed something, that's where I found. There are people in the boat that I knew, wives and things that were from the boat that I could ask help for. But the people, if I ever needed help, I would ask it of people from church. And I felt like I could.

Kelly Laing [03:29:05] I'm going to brag about Heather on this one because she underplays what she did. The wife of the commanding officer takes care of the families when we're gone. She absolutely took care of all of my families. We had 49 babies that were born to my command during those three years. Yes, Bunny rabbits, sailors are. But every one of those families received a blanket that was hand sewn by her and her mom with a USS Main emblem on it and little submarine and stuff. And we would take a package and little different things to every one of those families. And the newborns. We held every one of those newborns for the most part on that submarine. And she would serve and serve and take the phone calls and help the young families and the young wives, the young enlisted. And then on top of that, she always served in the church. We were a family. We did scripture study every night as a family. Scriptures, prayers, song, articles of faith, kids. We did two articles of faith every night always. And she continued doing that. She served as young Women's president, Relief Society president, counselors in every one of those organizations, you name it. Primary. She's done it and never, never turned down a calling.

Heather Laing [03:30:16] But there were good things it taught me. I think I do credit, especially that first time, like having little kids you to being at sea, being really city president. Like I told you, I was shy. I credit the military and church callings like that, being so far away from maybe Utah and Idaho and serving in those kind of things with definitely breaking me out of my shell a bit and forcing me into things that I'd never thought I could do and having to speak up and do things and do situations that I didn't want to have to take care of. But I did it because I just had to. And so it helped. And I'm grateful for that. It has shaped me into who I am today and I like who I am, so I'm grateful for those opportunities.

Kelly Laing [03:31:00] The last thing I'll say about the military career, as hard as it is, the thing I hate in life most is being away from her. And we've talked about, we hate separation. It's not easy and, but we always felt like it was a duty, it was a calling in life that we were supposed to go and do. But I will tell you the closeness that we have in our relationship because we value that time. Every time that we've got together, people laugh. I always tell people we don't fight in our marriage. You can ask my boys the number of times they've heard us fighting. We don't fight. But I credit her because she brought into the relationship this mutual understanding. Let's talk. And it's just this deep desire to be the best for the other. And I, and I know for some couples that's not healthy, but for us it is. And we have one hell of a relationship and friendship. I mean, don't get me wrong, boys, you're good, you're fun to be with, but

John Dehlin [03:32:07] that's beautiful. I've kind of maybe a left field question a tiny bit like I'm trying to imagine, like I remember when I worked at Microsoft, I'd be gone a couple weeks. It was hard. And I would say that for a lot of men probably, I'm sure women too, especially type A kind of men that, you know, being sexually active with a partner or spouse and sort of like knowing what that is and having that be a part of your life and then having to be away from them for two or three months at a time. I mean that I'm trying to imagine what that would be like. Like for me it was hard to be gone a couple weeks. And then there's, of course there's, there's the Mormon layer of like what you're not supposed to do when you're away. And then also there's this perception that you might have not only a businessman but also in the military of like military men at, at foreign ports doing whatever they do to be able to kind of meet their needs, whether it's sex workers or whatever.

Kelly Laing [03:33:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:14] You know, strip clubs, you know, I, I, I don't even know how to talk about it other than to say it must be super interesting to be a type A alpha male at sea four months at a time without being able to have sex with your wife. And I imagine as a woman, maybe depending on the woman, it's not great to be home and to have your husband gone for all. And there's probably stories of infidelity, of wives staying home and being alone and. And, you know, how do you deal with those needs? So I don't mean always come back to sex, but at the same time, I think these are real things. Is there anything you guys want to talk about?

Guest 2 [03:33:53] And the layer of being Mormon and the rules of masturbation. So I was. Yeah, I was kind of. I'm glad you asked that. That's kind of.

Kelly Laing [03:33:58] There's actually several points you guys were

John Dehlin [03:34:00] making a lot of facial expressions the audience didn't see. So validate that I was asking.

Kelly Laing [03:34:04] That is the spot on.

John Dehlin [03:34:06] Relevant question, Relevant question.

Guest 2 [03:34:08] This is three and a half interview and I'm getting a little bit like, I miss my husband. Yeah, it's a joke, but you're right.

Kelly Laing [03:34:16] And it's probably good time to bring my sons in because my bladder's full too.

John Dehlin [03:34:19] We'll take a break.

Kelly Laing [03:34:21] No, it's good. I'm gonna let Heather answer for her and let her answer last because her.

Heather Laing [03:34:27] Right.

Kelly Laing [03:34:27] Because I want her perspective in this one. Definitely. But we've talked all that. But I want to back up on the military. The question that wasn't asked that I want to answer. Mormons in general do not do good in the military for many reasons. The culture of the Mormon Church and that the virtue signaling the. I cannot be around people that swear. I can't be around anybody that has, you know, talks about pornography. I can't be around this or that. Yeah, Work on Sunday. You know, it's too hard on the family. They don't have family values. Majority of Mormons that come in the military wanting to serve the country, Hoorah. Came in with the same ideals I did. I'm just going to come and get out. And they do find that it's too hard to maintain their morals. And they do either get out of the military or they get out of the church. It's one of the two.

John Dehlin [03:35:14] I didn't know that.

Kelly Laing [03:35:15] Oh, there's very few that stay. In fact, you see that in the wards in the military wards, we are constantly trying to reactivate, you know, those that are on the rolls.

John Dehlin [03:35:22] So many just going active.

Kelly Laing [03:35:23] Oh, so many going active.

Heather Laing [03:35:24] Oh, yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:35:25] And it's for those very reasons. And it is tough. The military training is tough. And you're dealing with a very type A alpha male. And the females that are there, too, are very tough individuals. They're tough. I mean, the females that worked for me, I mean, incredible smart individuals, but driven. And they can give an order and they can be tough when they need to.

John Dehlin [03:35:43] You'd have to be.

Kelly Laing [03:35:44] And so that is not congruent with a lot of the lifestyle and patterns of the meekness and the humility sensibility, Mormon sensibility. And. And so we've often commented that a lot of the males that actually, you see stay in the church for a long time are actually type B personality, which is very docile and meek. And you don't get that type A personality. And I'm not saying one's right or wrong. There's qualities to both. That being said, once you come in a lot, struggle with the fact that, wait, I'm deploying and I've now had sex with my wife and I'm not supposed to masturbate. I can't do anything. I can't look at porn. And, well, it's. Once you've partaken of that fruit. And Heather knows how much I love sex and I'm open and honest about it. We talked to our kids about it, we talk with friends about it.

Guest 2 [03:36:33] Would you say earlier that you went through the libido lines in heaven?

John Dehlin [03:36:36] Two or three times you said it. Heaven, yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:36:39] Oh, you know, in our engagement, I told her, I said, I want it to be open and clear that sex is going to be very important to me.

John Dehlin [03:36:47] Me.

Kelly Laing [03:36:48] And I just want you to know you're marrying somebody that is going to want to have sex a lot. And she said, bring it. Now. Her libido was not what mine was. There's been a little bit of a change there. But that's later.

Heather Laing [03:37:02] You're so old.

Kelly Laing [03:37:03] I know, but, you know, at first, you know, it was very important for me that every time I had an orgasm, that she did, too. That was very important to me because my mom didn't have an orgasm for the majority of her marriage. And she told me that and about the first time she did mine, too. And I. That blew my mind. And I was very. To me, that's very selfish of a man. And if you're a man out there, take that for what it is. But, you know.

John Dehlin [03:37:26] And you like women.

Kelly Laing [03:37:27] Yeah. And you like women.

Guest 2 [03:37:28] That's right.

Kelly Laing [03:37:29] Let's just say partner, your partner should be sexually satisfied. If that's their choice, their desire. Do not make it all about you. Sex is about a joint relationship, but also your sexuality is something you give to somebody else. That's something we learned later on. But for me, it was sex. The only person I could have a sexual thought about and the only person I could have a sexual interaction with was with her. No masturbation whatsoever. That first submarine tour, Nothing. I never, I never looked at porn. I never looked at, I never masturbated.

Heather Laing [03:38:00] Nothing.

Kelly Laing [03:38:01] There's nothing. Zip, Zilch. In fact, when I found porn lockers with the other officers, I would take them and throw them out. Yes, I was that guy. And when we finished that submarine tour and I was doing going crazy and we were praying as to what to get out, we're actually praying about what job to take. And we got our answer. We're supposed to stay in the Navy. I told her, I don't know how I'm going to do this, honey. I'm going crazy. And my next tour is going to be on fast attack submarines. And those are six and eight month deployments.

John Dehlin [03:38:26] It's probably not natural.

Kelly Laing [03:38:27] I don't think it is. Yeah, I'm going to explode.

John Dehlin [03:38:30] Probably not healthy.

Kelly Laing [03:38:32] I definitely agree. But I would get underway and you know, you get a couple months away without sex and I feel like I could just rip somebody's head off. And I'm not a yeller and a screamer. And so we get into this, going into the second tourist. I don't know how many do this, honey. And we talked about it and I have a very wise wife that says, kelly, our physical relationship, our sexual relationship is ours and nobody else's. They don't need to know. She goes, when you're away, think of me. When you're away, kids are gonna laugh. We've got all kinds of little thumb drives and hard drives of different pictures. Well, they know, they know to avoid them. Of times of us, of pictures and things together. And you know what?

Heather Laing [03:39:24] They haven't seen that.

Guest 2 [03:39:25] When you said they know.

Heather Laing [03:39:26] No, no, they don't. Just cuz we're like.

Kelly Laing [03:39:28] But we joke about that.

Guest 2 [03:39:29] I think I found things with my parents. So that's why I'm like, I know, I know we have bond, we need to bond in our trauma.

Kelly Laing [03:39:37] But, but how freeing is it though to be able to talk about that with our kids now? But also like I would have, I think I would have gone crazy without that.

John Dehlin [03:39:45] So yes, your orthodox believing Mormon wife basically did what?

Kelly Laing [03:39:49] Oh, she. We made pornos together and she gave you permission.

Heather Laing [03:39:53] I gave you permission to enjoy yourself. Fun, to let that tension happen.

Kelly Laing [03:39:58] She did and I did. And not a lot of people know that. In fact, there's people I would never have admitted that to before I left the church. And it was one of those things that we decided, hey, for us, that's ours. And so when we. That was probably a little bit. That was one of those shelf items that we put up there. Maybe a little bit of a crack in the shelf that we weren't doing what the TBMs were supposed to do. And, oh, by the way, that continued on while I was in bishoprics, of course, and serving as ward mission leaders and everything else. And I never felt guilty for that once we finally got over it, because it was her and I. My thoughts were on her. I wasn't looking at somebody else. And so what about the ghost of

John Dehlin [03:40:39] your dad and Bruce R. McConkie?

Kelly Laing [03:40:41] Oh, my gosh, yes.

Heather Laing [03:40:43] Hopefully. I don't. I think he would have been thinking about them then.

Kelly Laing [03:40:52] It's interesting because I remember finding out that my mom caught my dad. My sister told me this. My mom caught my dad masturbating one time. And how mad she was at him because that was not awesome.

John Dehlin [03:41:02] Struck the F bomb on him.

Guest 2 [03:41:03] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:41:04] It was scandalous. And my mom was so mad, and my sister was so disgusted with my dad. And I'm sure my brothers and my sister are going to be all mad at me for revealing foul family secrets, but that's okay. That's all right.

Guest 2 [03:41:17] We also normalize it, quite honestly. We're not going to be gross, but this kind of stuff models well, that, like, these things are actually quite kosher. Like, let's normalize this.

Kelly Laing [03:41:25] It's exactly. Let's normalize. In fact, that's the biggest thing. Let's teach people there's healthy ways to do it. It's between a couple. What is safe and consensual. And that is what needs to happen.

John Dehlin [03:41:36] It has to be that your dad was mad at you because he was mad at himself for behaviors that he was ashamed of. I mean, doesn't it have to be that way?

Guest 2 [03:41:44] John, you were a psychologist here.

John Dehlin [03:41:46] Oh, sorry.

Kelly Laing [03:41:47] I think that. I really think that's the reason why. I think that that's. He projected all of his guilts upon us. Yeah, I know that. I. My brothers, my sisters will tell you this, and my kids will say this. Of the eight kids, I'm the golden child. I did everything he wanted me to do. I served the mission. I was serving the callings. I became a high priest at a very young age. I did everything that he wanted. I became a submarine captain. I achieved a rank in the military. He didn't. And he was so proud of me. And then for me to walk away from the faith.

John Dehlin [03:42:24] Oh, we can't get there yet.

Kelly Laing [03:42:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:25] Okay.

Kelly Laing [03:42:26] And that's where. But I'm gonna let Heather talk her portion.

Heather Laing [03:42:30] Oh, I just remember. I just. I viewed it as. I mean, I never. Okay, let's put it this way. With Kelly, I have never felt. I really, really have never felt worried or that he was going to cheat on me or he was going to not be thinking of me or be thinking of somebody else or because just of who he is. He is a sharer. He tells me everything.

Kelly Laing [03:43:02] Everything.

Heather Laing [03:43:02] And he also is just very loving and. And very vocal in telling me and his actions too. And so I really have. I just trusted that he would be faithful to me. And

John Dehlin [03:43:19] was it hard for you to have him gone for months at a time?

Heather Laing [03:43:22] It was sort of. I would have to say my libido. Physically or mentally?

Kelly Laing [03:43:27] Emotionally.

Heather Laing [03:43:28] Mentally and emotionally, yes. Physically, yes, yes. But definitely not so much. Maybe like towards the end I. I definitely would, but I, My. I was like. I was living. I was surviving kind of when he was gone and. And it really didn't come into much play, to be honest with me. That's just my part in it. So.

Kelly Laing [03:43:50] And for me, it's. It was always on the forefront of my mind and I mean, stiff wind. And I'd look at her and see Heather and, and. And we would. And she was so gracious to me. So gracious to me. And there was.

Heather Laing [03:44:06] Yeah. I mean, I. Not saying that I don't enjoy any of the. It just. It does not at the 4 as much of the forefront of my mind as it was you.

Kelly Laing [03:44:14] And we've had a. I think that we've had a phenomenal sex life.

Heather Laing [03:44:17] I think so too. Hell yeah.

John Dehlin [03:44:20] Loving this. Oh, we've talked about with them.

Kelly Laing [03:44:22] They all know we joke about things.

Heather Laing [03:44:23] Love. To make them uncomfortable.

Kelly Laing [03:44:25] We'll have to tell them where they were each conceived to.

John Dehlin [03:44:29] Okay, so what else do we need to talk about before we bring. Bring your sons on? Like, let's talk about. I think we need to set the context for the religion part. In other words, what would you say your beliefs were up until the time where your sons are going to start telling their story? Were you doubting? Were you orthodox? Were you in it to win it?

Kelly Laing [03:44:55] Church wise in it to win it? I'm going to save. There's one thing that cracked my shelf. I'm going to wait until after they're interviewed to bring that in.

John Dehlin [03:45:02] Okay.

Kelly Laing [03:45:03] But we were 100% in it to win it.

John Dehlin [03:45:05] Bishop bricks. Right?

Kelly Laing [03:45:06] Bishop bricks.

John Dehlin [03:45:07] You served in multiple.

Kelly Laing [03:45:08] Yeah, multiple bishoprics, both as counselors, as executive secretaries, as clerks. I've served seven times as ward mission leader because I am a. I absolutely believed I was gung ho. They'd see me. Oh, this guy.

John Dehlin [03:45:19] You were zealous. I was missionary.

Kelly Laing [03:45:22] I was zealot. I was an absolute zealot. Preach the gospel, Find people on the list. Let's bring them back to church. Young men's presidents, multiple times. Scout masters, Eagle Scout. All three of my boys are Eagle Scouts. We were in it every activity.

John Dehlin [03:45:34] What about. What about combining your love for cadets or military service with the church? Did you play a role in like supporting Mormon? Would you call them cadets? What would you call them?

Kelly Laing [03:45:46] Midshipmen.

John Dehlin [03:45:46] Midshipmen, yeah.

Kelly Laing [03:45:47] So at the Naval Academy, they're called midshipmen. And when I. We truly believe the reason we were called to. I got the job at the Naval Academy was because we were called to help LDS midshipmen. When we got there, there was anywhere from six to eight, sometimes 10 that would show up on a Sunday inside the ward. And we were in Annapolis, Maryland, at the Naval Academy. And I became a battalion officer out there there where I was in charge of 750ish midshipmen in my battalion. But then I was called to also work with all 4400 of the midshipmen. And I believed my job was to get involved, to get to know them, to love them, help them build their leadership on the military aspect, help them find out what job was the best job to pick. For me, it was submarines. But honestly, I'd help them figure out what's the best career path would be in the military. But mainly if you were to ask me, between military obligations and commitment and church obligations, commitment which took precedence. Church. Every time. Every time.

John Dehlin [03:46:48] As much as the military mattered to you, it did.

Kelly Laing [03:46:50] And my. Because I believed that eventually the military would go away, but the church would stay. And so I would make sure I went overstep bounds with the mission. But midshipmen that were LDs on the records, we fought to bring them back. Just before COVID hit, we organized the first LDS midshipman branch with 45 to 50 active midshipmen. And I did that with Ken Nematololo and the bishop that was out there at the time, Ken Nim Patololo. Was the Navy football coach and state president out there at the time. He still is. Good friend. Love him. You'll never hear a disparaging word. I'm out of my mouth. In fact, I've got a couple stories about him later on. But we worked hand. I mean every day. There was not a day off. Mason knows this especially because at the Naval Academy we were given a house that was right on the grounds of the playground. It was this massive 19th, sorry 18th century home that was four stories and all these rooms and fireplaces in every room. Just grand old, beautiful brick home. And every weekend, the midshipmen in our home, every night there are military functions we'd go to. It was the busiest job I think we've ever had. It was exhausting and it's mentally inexhausting because you're engaging with people all the time. And I'm an extrovert and I hit the level of my, the limits of my extrovertness. But Heather cooked, baked, helped, loved, supported, went to all these functions and loved the midshipmen with me just as much. It was a full time job between the two of us. So yes, we were there. We truly believed it was a calling from God.

John Dehlin [03:48:18] Were those happy, beautiful memories?

Heather Laing [03:48:20] There are a lot that were. I was just talking to the boys about this. There are a lot that weren't just with kids lives like poor Ashley and Mason and their school situation and even church Mason, he'll tell you that. Yeah, we'll hear their perspective. But I did love the midshipmen. I mean it was that they're college age kids, right? And they're my kids age and I just loved. They're excited for life, they're starting out, learning, growing and so I love that part about them and, and to visit them, but it was exhausting. It was so exhausting because it was 24 7. Like, you know, couldn't. Not that I come out of my room in my underwear with my kids there, but I really had to like think before I walked out of my room. There are always people there, always in the house, the kitchen, anything.

Kelly Laing [03:49:10] So we shared our lives in our home consistently and constantly with everything and our children's lives. And they got to meet some incredible people. I mean, I don't know if you remember the story of the Belgium, the missionary that got the Mason Wells. He was one of my midshipmen, he just graduated this year. And what happened? He was caught in the bombings when he was a missionary.

John Dehlin [03:49:35] Listeners that are parts of these families

Kelly Laing [03:49:37] and they're a great Family and we're still good friends with them. And this interview, I guarantee you, is going to be a shock to a lot of my midshipmen that don't know that I've left to church at.

John Dehlin [03:49:47] Because they looked up to you. Because it goes without saying that serving at the mill at the Naval Academy is a real honor. It's like serving in West Point or the Air Force Academy or.

Kelly Laing [03:49:56] Yeah, you know, it is. And it is so competitive to get there, to be an officer, to be selected there. I mean, the screening process difficult. And for me getting there, it was a fulfillment of a dream. True. Because I always felt like I was going to graduate from the academy. And then I. I go to the Academy, I leave to go on my mission. On my mission. I get that answer. I'm not supposed to go back, but I always wonder, like I thought I was supposed to graduate from the academy and then years later I go back to the academy as a battalion officer and I served there for two and a half years. So three and a half years of my life I've spent at the Naval. Sorry, at an academy.

John Dehlin [03:50:27] Is that good for your career in the Navy to sit there?

Kelly Laing [03:50:29] It is, it is, yeah. And so while I'm there, you know, it's taken me back and I get fall in love with not just the LDS midshipmen, but all the midshipmen. And we have some of those incredible stories. And it was extremely touching for me in 2020, the class of 2020, when they graduated, they voted me as the honorary. Honorary grad for the class of 2020. And I got a graduation certificate, I got a ring, a glass ring. And so I am now a graduate of the United States Naval Academy at the age, at the time, age of 45.

John Dehlin [03:51:05] So like a year ago were you guys. I mean, maybe a little more than a year ago, you guys were still active and believing.

Kelly Laing [03:51:12] I was in the bishopric in June of last year.

John Dehlin [03:51:16] This is crazy.

Guest 2 [03:51:19] So, yeah, you had something published in the Church News. I just looked up as recently as January 2, 2020.

John Dehlin [03:51:24] Well, were you guys written up in the Church?

Kelly Laing [03:51:25] We were in the Church News. Oh, this one apart, we in the church News in January 2020. Thank you very much. Actually, if you just Google my name, there will be all kinds of little articles and Facebook posts.

John Dehlin [03:51:35] L A N G E L A

Kelly Laing [03:51:36] I N G Kelly K E L L Y L A I N G

Guest 2 [03:51:39] There's a lot of pictures to go

John Dehlin [03:51:40] along and then the church is going to take all these articles down.

Kelly Laing [03:51:44] Well, I've already asked them several times to take it down and they haven't yet. So I'm sure after this interview they'll say it'll get scrubbed, but yeah. So I was published with a story back in the Ensign years before that from a story when I went down on some cross training with the Brazilian Navy. I got to ride Brazilian submarines and surface ships and did some really neat things because I spoke Portuguese and that helped me get down there. Had an incredible experience, wrote it up, got published in the Ensign. That experience was very interesting. All the scrubbing that they do and the edits they do.

John Dehlin [03:52:14] I've heard that many times.

Kelly Laing [03:52:16] Oh my gosh. But then I got also published in the Church News is the submarine captain that Cowie keeps his face. And I was at the time really struggling to keep my faith, still serving in the bishopric because I already knew at that point I had one son. I didn't know a two, one son that's gay. And I will let him tell his story at that point. And I was struggling, but I was also fighting tooth and nail to keep my testimony. I was reading my scriptures up until June of last year. I finished the Book of Mormon the 40th time in my life. Last year I kept a tick mark in the scriptures that were given to me just before I went on my mission. And I was trying through and through. In fact, in February of last year, I gave a talk at the Naval at the Naval Academy at Annapolis Ward about Don't give up the ship. The motto of the. Of the Naval Academy don't get. Yeah, don't give up the ship. And I was fighting to keep my faith. But then right after the New year, right after I was published in the Church News, I had one of my midshipmen die right in front of me. That I was so stressed and I was so busy and I was working so hard with those midshipmen. And all my midshipmen will know Duke and to Duke's mom, who I know is going to hear this in my midmanship. And you and your boys still mean the world to me. He died in front of us running a physical fitness test. He had a heart defect. We didn't know. We've come to find out later, the tragedy of going through that and having his two brothers at the academy. One, can you imagine a family has three kids at the Stanley Academy at the same time, twins. And another, talk about a phenomenal powerhouse family. Amazing. But have one of the kids die, that experience and going to the hospital, being there when they pronounce them dead. As they're giving CPR for over an hour and getting through that and then helping all my midshipmen who were there, who loved and knew this midshipman get through the grieving process. That was absolutely knocked me off my feet. Then a second midshipman that dies a couple months later. We don't know all the. I'm sure the autopsy has details. I don't know if it's part Covid or what a football player that I knew. I wasn't there when he. When he died, but he still nonetheless knew him to the situations with my sons. And that will be what breaks my shelf to start looking. And that's probably where I need to let them take off because I'll probably get too emotional at this point.

John Dehlin [03:54:56] Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing that care. Isn't that, that. Isn't that cool?

Guest 2 [03:55:04] Yeah, I just, I feel how genuine both of you are from, like your early years. And you're just. Your dedication to one another and to doing the right thing, it's really coming to our country, to doing right by your family is like in your community. Like, that's really coming through. And just. I feel like I'm in a warm blanket of hugs already. Just like you guys are just really genuine, beautiful people. So that was a good story.

John Dehlin [03:55:27] So one thing, one thing that we didn't know mention is that you have an awesome TikTok channel and one of the most powerful TikToks you shared is the one about being a lazy learner. And I just mentioned that because, like, when you say you read the Book of Mormon, what, 40 times.

Kelly Laing [03:55:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:55:42] You weren't a lazy learner. And so that, that's. You kind of do this tongue in cheek TikTok video.

Kelly Laing [03:55:46] I do.

John Dehlin [03:55:47] Where you talk about that the church would call you a lazy learner.

Heather Laing [03:55:50] I do.

Kelly Laing [03:55:51] And so. Thank you. Well, Kara, I will tell you. Yes, you were my inspiration first to get on.

Heather Laing [03:55:57] Really?

Kelly Laing [03:55:57] Yes, you were. And then when John made the call, I was like, I'm going to do this. I want to do this. And then John made the call out because of the Brad Wilcox video. That one infuriated me. But I was going to stay quiet. I was not going to get up and speak out. But then some of the attacks started happening before we got on social media and I was like, just getting angry and I'll get into this later. But there is definitely the stages of grief, but I'll get through that. But I remember when Brad Wilcox watched that video, I was just in awe. Like, how can you say these kind of things? And so I made a Brad Wilcox TikTok. And that one thought, wow, that one's got over 10,000 views. And then the lazy learner one, and you call for the lazy learner that you made, John. That was like, that's it, that's it. I'm going to get on. I'm going to speak up, I'm going to speak out because others had the courage to speak out. I'm going to do it. And if it helps somebody else do it. And so I got on, I said, you know, hey, Rusty. And it's probably inappropriate to call him Rusty, but it's Russell M. Nelson for those that don't know the prophet of the church. I said, mormon Church. Mormon Church. I said, lazy learner here. I said two master's degrees, bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering, certified nuclear engineer, the Department of Defense, Department of Energy, returned missionary, read the Book of Mormon over 40 times, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants many times, New Testament, Old Testament. I didn't say some of those things, but I went on and made a laundry list of items. I said, and you're right, I'm a lazy learner. And why? Because I failed to study the things I should have studied. The truth, the true history of the church, the anachronisms, the truth about Joseph Smith, the truth about how the history has been whitewashed, the truth about the Book of Abraham, the truth about. And I went on and on and I said, you're right, I'm a lazy learner, but I'm a lazy learner no more because I'm studying the truth and I'm going to help others to find and study the truth.

John Dehlin [03:57:51] So we have some foreshadowing, foreshadowing of a conversation to come. So we'll end this segment as its own, sort of like the life of a naval Mormon naval commander and his awesome partner. And what we're going to do now is we're going to end this one and then we'll come right back and we're going to have Britt and Mason tell their story of Sons of Mormon naval family who happen to be gay and what their perspective has been like being raised in this family, realizing that they're gay as Mormon kids of, of a naval family and then how they dealt with it. And it's equally epic. So come right back for part two of our amazing interview with the Laing with the Laing family. Thanks so much, everyone. And thanks, Kara. It's always so great to have you.

Heather Laing [03:58:39] You.

Kelly Laing [03:58:39] Thank you thank you, Carol.

Guest 2 [03:58:40] Yeah, thanks for having me somewhere.

John Dehlin [03:58:42] And thanks, Kelly and Heather. You guys are awesome.

Heather Laing [03:58:45] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:58:45] Beautiful. All right, come right back for part two.

Introducing Sons Britain and Mason

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1467

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. We are now four hours into an epic interview with the Lange family. The first four hours were with Kelly and Heather Lange, where we talked about their Mormon stories growing up in Idaho Falls, Idaho, but also talking about Kelly's career as a naval officer in the US Navy and as a commander of naval submarines, nuclear submarines, and all the amazing experiences that Kelly and his wife Heather had being orthodox, active, believing, faithful Mormons and serving in the US Navy, including six years of service in a submarine, floating who knows where, doing who knows what, but also serving at the U.S. naval Academy and everything in between. It's an epic, powerful, gripping story of patriotism, of faithfulness of family. And if you haven't watched that, pause this, go watch that, or listen to it, and then come back. But where we left off was, after this distinguished career, there was kind of this parallel story happening where Kelly and Heather Laing have four children. Heather's raising these four children, sometimes alone, while Kelly's off to sea and serving in his military career. And two of these four children, Britton and Mason, were growing up doing the super Mormon life and at some point became awakened to the fact that they were gay. And we have had lots of LGBTQ people here on Mormon Stories talking about their stories. We've never had two that. I remember two gay siblings talking about it. So it's one thing to be gay Mormon, it's another thing to have a sibling who's gay and to be raised as a Mormon. And that's what this second part is going to be about. So without any further ado, Britain and Mason Laing, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Mason Laing [00:01:51] Hi, John. Hi, John.

Britton Laing [00:01:53] Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] So who's Britain? Who's Mason?

Britton Laing [00:01:57] I am Mason. No, I'm teasing. I'm Britain. I'm Britain. And this is Mason.

Mason Laing [00:02:00] I'm Mason.

Britton Laing [00:02:00] Yes.

Guest 3 [00:02:01] Yeah.

Britton Laing [00:02:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] What do you guys want to add or take away from my introduction?

Mason Laing [00:02:05] I'm 16. We both live in Silver Hill, Washington.

Britton Laing [00:02:08] Well, soon to be. I'm. I just finished. I'm moving right now. I'm in the process.

Guest 3 [00:02:12] I just.

Britton Laing [00:02:12] My car is packed up at the moment, has everything I own, and I'm heading back home to live with everyone, so.

Mason Laing [00:02:18] But, yeah. Bryn, how old are you?

Britton Laing [00:02:19] Huh? How old am I? I'm 22. Yeah, I've had a good life. I am alive. I'm healthy. I don't know. I don't know what to say here, but with that. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] And we're going to be talking about kind of what it's like to grow up in this military family to realize you're gay as a Mormon. Britain. We're going to be talking about you becoming a missionary and what that was like, you coming out to your Mormon family. And then of course, Mason, you're having your own journey, knowing at some point realizing your older brother was gay. And, and how you dealt with that as well. So it's going to be epic. And of course, we have with us the one, the only Car Burrell joining us as co host of this interview. Hey, Kara.

Guest 3 [00:02:57] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] How are you joining the Laing family so far?

Guest 3 [00:03:00] Gosh, I like, am I. I don't say the word speechless a lot, but like, I really am like, stop. This is a fan. This is a powerhouse of just like awesomeness that I am in this room right now. So I'm so excited to get into this part now.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] All right, well, thanks for being here and thanks for being my co pilot or co wing commander or whatever you would say in the naval. What's the equivalent? Co pilot in the Navy and. Okay for flight. Yes. Okay. All right, all right, all right. Well, thanks for being here, Carrie. You're awesome.

Guest 3 [00:03:29] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] Okay, so Britain and let's, I guess, Britain. You were born first.

Britton Laing [00:03:34] Yeah. Yeah. So. So I remember my birth fondly. I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] You just heard four hours of your parents. How, how. What would you add to that story from your perspective?

Britton Laing [00:03:44] So it's like thinking about it, it's kind of hard because it's like, it's fun. It's interesting how our stories overlap there. I know for me, and I'm trying to think of where to start. So I was born in Logan, Utah, and I was there throughout that entire family growing up, being in the military. And it's interesting being a military kid, how I very much took it as an identity. Like it was like almost equal parts. Like, I'm Mormon and I'm a military kid. And it's interesting growing up and having parents that do that, having dad there and not there. And something I just add for kind of a topic that came up with my mom and dad was like, how did mom do when dad was gone? And to be quite honest, I enjoyed that time. I really enjoyed. I mean, I miss my dad, of course, because I mean, as a kid, you're like, where's dad at? But my mom, she did a great job of doing fun things, particularly the most appointments I remember were in Hawaii. And I remember we do fun things all the time. She'd take us to the museum, she'd take us out to get ice cream at McDonald's. That's a big traditional. We do, we stay at McDonald's. So it's a very, very happy childhood in the fact that even though the dad wasn't always there, I knew and I understood, like, oh, he's out doing something for our country. And so that meant a lot to me and I was happy to be along for the ride. And I feel like it's not until like, for me, I lived in my own world until I was 12, maybe 11. 12, because I have a very active imagination. And so I was in Britain land for a long time in Britain land like my own head. And so during that, I mean, I would play pretend and not care or think twice about what was going on in the world. I was oblivious, oblivious child.

Growing Up Mormon in a Military Family

John Dehlin [00:05:41] So do you, what are your. Do you have Mormon memories as a child?

Britton Laing [00:05:44] Yeah. So up until. So. And then it gets to 12. So that's the thing I do. Like, as a kid I remember thinking, oh, it's fun to like go to this church house where I can run around and be there and not care. I remember doing service projects for like Eagle Scout projects with people. And we were very involved in scouting and like Boy Scouts, even before Cub Scouts. That's what I'm thinking of. And yeah, Primary. Primary, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Did you have any favorite Primary songs?

Britton Laing [00:06:14] Oh, yes, I. Okay, that's the other thing too. I was very much so, like, I loved Primary. Like any songs. Like, I was very much so singing at the top of my lungs. Like, I loved everything about, like trying to be like Jesus. Jesus. I was very much so. Like, I don't know, I didn't really enjoy like the fun, like, do as I'm doing songs. I was more like, I like the thematic songs.

Mason Laing [00:06:37] I love the Sea Temple.

Britton Laing [00:06:37] I love the Sea Temple. Yeah. I mean, it was my favorite. One of my favorite songs. So I was very much in the church. I mean, that was. That was my life. I mean, Jesus and trying to be like him and doing what's right and treating people kindly. So that was. That was very much Little Britain growing up until then. I don't know how far you want me to go.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] Well, let's try and follow a timeline a bit for both of you. So I guess we just heard your mom talk about her being raised in more of a relaxed, open minded kind of Mormon family, but then your dad talking about a super strict kind of more harsh Mormon family. What was the tone of your Mormon Family as you remember it starting as

Britton Laing [00:07:21] a kid to, to be quite honest, because of the church. It was. If there's a spectrum, it was closer to my dad's. So it was strict. It was far. Like strictly. We read scriptures every night, we had family prayers, we memorized all the articles of faith. Like we do two every night and then also do scripture mastery. When we started seminary, it was very. It was very much so like down the lines and then. And dad, my dad is and was very spiritual. And so we'd have family owned evenings where he would present lessons and tell mission stories or tell other things. And so it was very much so down the line. Like we do all the things the church says. And so. And it's interesting because in my perspective, I don't know about Mason, I didn't see it so much as my dad was strict. Like I would. It would be you terrible if I screwed up something in the church. Like I. Repentance to me is like, oh, I can always fix something I mess up. But it was more internalized. Like I didn't care what other people thought of me. I was worried about me. Like I thought I will be evil, terrible, wrong if I do something terrible.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] So what were the do's and don'ts as a kid?

Britton Laing [00:08:29] It was very much so. Number one rule I feel like in our house is respect and love mom.

Mason Laing [00:08:33] Like that's love mom and respect her. Honestly. That's so true.

Britton Laing [00:08:36] Yeah, it's like the, the one, the only, you know. Yeah. And. And I don't know, kind of a sad effect of that. And I'm grateful for it, but unfortunately that my dad very pressed that really hard. But because of that, I do think it affected my relationship with my father, our father, because we were taught we have to love and respect mom at all costs. And so sometimes that cost was done. Yeah.

Mason Laing [00:09:00] Meaning what you go, like the more the attention would be put on my mother, more thing. Like everything we did was like to like so we could get approval from mom and everything. And lots of times that was like the disciplining part of aspect of it was done by dad too. And so it was just kind of

John Dehlin [00:09:21] a good cop, bad cop.

Britton Laing [00:09:22] Yeah, a little bit.

Mason Laing [00:09:22] Exactly. Yeah. But not obviously not the intensity of like my father's situation at all. But. No, but it was. Yeah. Good cop, bad cop situation.

Britton Laing [00:09:31] Yeah. And yeah. And so that was. That's like the first and foremost rule that that happened there. And of course now it's. It's different. We're learning and growing to different People. But, yeah, that was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] As I'm thinking about my own family, you know, if. If the dad's gone a lot and the mom is kind of primarily raising the kids and is always there, there can be this dynamic of, like, what mom says really matters and kind of dad doesn't matter as much sometimes. And. And then if the dad has an ego or is used to kind of. And I'm. I'm kind of projecting here a little bit that can make the dad feel like he's not respected or not valued, maybe feel defensive. Is. Is that. Was that or not kind of what you guys experienced?

Mason Laing [00:10:19] That's no Tino shade. Like, but, like, that's pretty accurate. Like, honestly, mom would. Mom and like, all of us children had, like, a good relationship with mom and everything, and then dad would, like, come home, and he had, like, a long day and everything and nothing that ever would happen. But it was more of like, a. Like you said, like, I guess we. He didn't see us as, like, respecting him as much. And so it was like. It was. I bet it was scary. It was scary for him to see that his, like, own children weren't, like, communicating as much with him.

Britton Laing [00:10:51] Yeah. And that's the hard thing when you're a dad and you. You want that love. You want that love and not so much respect, like. Cause respect, in a sense, is, like, just that affection that mom is getting. And so you're like, crap. How do I do that? And. And it's. I. I mean, you do the best with the tools you've got. And sometimes those tools aren't always the best tools for the job.

Guest 3 [00:11:12] And.

Mason Laing [00:11:13] Oh. So also, like. And obviously now we see we, like, we can, like, empathize, and we can be like, hey, like, put. Let's put ourselves in dad's shoes. Like, what's happening in his brain. Like, as children, we didn't see that. Like, we couldn't do that. And so a lot of it with growing up was like. Like, I was scared of my father. Like, I was scared to, like, be around him because I thought that everything I was doing was gonna, like, might, like, set him off or something like that. So.

Britton Laing [00:11:40] Yeah, and that's hard. And it's crap, too, because he's doing something amazing for his country and for us. And then that also leads to a guilt spiral, too, that I believe the church has a lot to do with. It's like, I love this person, and I want to be around them, but I. Then you start to feel bad because you can't be what they want you to be. And so you internalize it instead of putting on them.

Mason Laing [00:12:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:04] So that'll come in your story. Go ahead.

Mason Laing [00:12:06] It's just. It was just like, like Britain said, like, you internalize it and you start thinking, like, oh, my gosh, I'm a bad person because I don't want to be around dad. When, like, in reality, it wasn't like, it wasn't dad's fault. It wasn't our fault. It was like, just every, like, everything that's shaped us, that's happened to us and everything. And obviously there are some, like, like, things that go along that we choose and stuff, but, like, a lot of things shape how we act. And as children, we just couldn't see that.

Guest 3 [00:12:32] So.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] Yeah, Let me ask you. There's kind of. I'm thinking of some movies I watched growing up where there were kind of military dads, and there's kind of the stereotype of the military dad, strict and stern and harsh and yelling and barking. And obviously it's hard because your parents are in the room and you want to be thoughtful and respectful. I think they would say they want you to be honest and open and they're not going to take super offense. So, like, to what extent was he kind of that stereotypical mean, harsh, strict dad versus trying to overcompensate by being extra loving and kind and soft. Or.

Britton Laing [00:13:06] Or do you want to. Oh, each of you.

Mason Laing [00:13:10] Okay, it. To a certain extent, it was kind of like that. It was like, actually our dad was very good about not yelling at us. There were, like, instances obviously where everybody parent, like, I, I don't like children, so I understand it. I. I don't like, I understand why, like, they wouldn't stuff like that.

Britton Laing [00:13:31] But.

Mason Laing [00:13:32] But to another extent, like, he never wanted to seem like the bad guy. And so it'd be like, it come to, like, he would do everything, like, he loves us so much to the point where he do everything he could to make us happy. But with that comes, like, like, if he got angry at us or something like that, but he didn't want us to be seen as, like, seen as a bad guy. And so he'd like, do we do tons of fun stuff together, like go to trampoline parks and everything like that. And sometimes, like, for my father, it was that, oh, I'm doing this to get, like, a good reaction out of it. And so it was more of like, oh, we have to give a reaction to everything he gives us. And, like, it comes with, like, a guilt aspect. To it where we feel if something

Britton Laing [00:14:23] happens, yeah, we're having a crap day

Mason Laing [00:14:25] or something like that. Like you don't want to be ungrateful to. We are not ungrateful at all. Like, we, we're so grateful for everything that like our father's done from us. But like if we were do little tiny things like it'd come off as it.

Britton Laing [00:14:40] I would say is it's a matter of. And I'm going to talk about this later too, with the church. It's a matter of we base our self esteem on what other people think of us. And when you do that, when you become dependent upon other people and how they perceive you and what they're feeling, it's this terrible cycle for you and the other person because for you, if they ever think poorly of you, it's immediately internalized. And if the other person ever. They feel this guilt, this weight that they have to constantly hold up their own emotional health and like physical health and the other person's. And so that's. I think that's the hardest thing. It's a matter of. I mean, for me, my father was not treated as he should have been as a kid. And that breaks my heart.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] So we're talking about multi generational trauma a little bit.

Britton Laing [00:15:28] Right. Honestly. And I see my dad is also very much a personality type of. It's either 0% or 100%. And so. Yeah, and I have that in me too. But I know that I see lots of the things that he's done for us as a family, like vacations, the experiences, the beaches, trips, the hiking, all of that was an attempt because he loves us and he didn't get that as a kid and he wanted to give that to us, the things that he never got. And so that means a lot to me. And now I can see that. But as a kid, you're in the moment. You're tired and you're hot and you're hungry and you're like, crap. I don't want to do this, but I don't want to say anything because I don't want to make someone feel bad.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] You know, I spent a little bit of time with your dad, just like last weekend. And you know, I saw this movie, A Few Good Men, with Jack Nicholson. And in that case, Jack Nicholson was kind of a bad actor in the end. But at the same time he makes this point about, you want us on the wall, you need us on that wall. And I don't know if you remember that, but I thought about the fact that Kelly has a strong personality, but, like, that's what you probably need to command a nuclear submarine with the intelligence and the intensity and the focus and all of that. Like, we need people like that, and the country and the military and even the church is going to likely raise and groom someone like that, because that. So it would even reinforce a lot of these behaviors that are needed in one setting, and then that may or may not always be optimal for a totally different setting. And so it's kind of a complex conundrum that we need these personalities, and that can sometimes make these personalities not optimal. Right.

Mason Laing [00:17:13] I will say our father is very good at taking things from. Obviously, no one's perfect, and some things would carry over from work, but my dad's very good at seeing things that he does. He's like, oh, like, that's very militaristic of me. Like, I should take a step back and maybe we shouldn't do that anymore. And changing his. His view of doing, like, disciplining and stuff like that.

Britton Laing [00:17:38] My father isn't rigid.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] He's. What?

Britton Laing [00:17:40] He's not rigid. When he. When he realizes that he needs to change something, he does it immediately.

Mason Laing [00:17:45] He's awesome like that.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:17:46] Okay. I really liked how much he talked about his love of people as well. And so I would assume that he's at least on the spectrum of being, like, such a people person and not the. As stereotypical as maybe, like, some movies that come to mind. Like, he had a. I feel like the way that he talked about how much he loves people first, hopefully that comes across more.

Britton Laing [00:18:07] Oh, very much so. Yeah.

Mason Laing [00:18:09] I was at Olive Garden the other day with my mother, and we were talking to her friends, and her friend paid for the meal, and she was like, I got it. Like, Kelly paid last time. And my father. And so. And what happens is mom was like, that's just his love language. Like. Like making people feel happy. He's like. And my mom's just like, oh. And physical touch and words of affirmation and, oh, my.

Britton Laing [00:18:34] Quality time. And just, like, being loved.

Mason Laing [00:18:37] He just likes loving people.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Yeah. Okay. Well, what else do you guys want to talk about? Kind of your Mormon upbringing, both of you. Mason, too. Like, as kids, before teenage, before teen years.

Mason Laing [00:18:49] Anything else I like from. I don't know. I loved going to. Well, actually, okay. Sometimes I wouldn't like going to church, actually. But for the most part, I like doing the primary, and I love seeing time, because your favorite primary songs I really liked. I like the harmony to, like, I'm a child. Of God and I can't.

Guest 3 [00:19:09] Do you want to sing it right now?

Mason Laing [00:19:13] Also Gifts of the Little Stream. That was a solid one.

Guest 3 [00:19:17] See?

Mason Laing [00:19:18] And yeah. Oh, also sharing time wasn't my favorite. Unless we had this one lady in the ward. She would do it always. Make it fun. Sister Dewey. No, Griffith. Dewey was singing time. But anyways. Yeah, but I like going to church for the most part. But one part of it I hated was scouting. Like Cub Scouts. The only reason I ever did it was because at a young age, my father promised all of us, if you get your Ego Scout, you can have anything you want. Anything you want. I was like, I'm getting my Ego Scout, bitches. Like, and so. And so I didn't like scouting when I was younger at all, but I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Why didn't you like it?

Mason Laing [00:20:00] Like people forcing you to do things like that you don't want to do. And that's like something that comes a lot with like toxic masculinity. It's like just push through and it's like, no, I don't like this.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] What are the scouting things that weren't for you?

Mason Laing [00:20:13] Oh, camping. I hate camping.

Guest 3 [00:20:17] Oh, yeah.

Mason Laing [00:20:18] Also hiking. I hate hiking. I hate being dirty. Anything with like dirt, I'm like, no. Or like uncleanliness or like that. Bro, bro, bro, bro, bro.

Britton Laing [00:20:30] Aspect.

Mason Laing [00:20:30] Like girl, calm down. Like chill your tits. Like girl, I can't with that.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] But gay boys in scouting don't necessarily.

Britton Laing [00:20:40] I mean, is it the same for

John Dehlin [00:20:41] you, Britain or not?

Britton Laing [00:20:42] Well, that's the thing. Not every interesting. Like certain things I did enjoy. Like I, I did enjoy scout camp, even though I don't appreciate necessarily camping and being cleanly. But I like, I like beaches, but I don't like hikes. So it's like, I guess gay is not my personality. I mean there are things.

Mason Laing [00:20:59] Wow, the shade.

Britton Laing [00:21:00] No, I was not saying that is for you, but. No, no, no, I don't mean it that way. But for me there are things I enjoyed. But it also kind of goes back into being a kid and you just did the things the church asked for and it was expected and not doing it. There were consequences to not doing it.

Mason Laing [00:21:20] Oh yeah.

Britton Laing [00:21:23] And it's hard because now I can see Dad's like, well, this is what we were told to do. I want your success and this is how I can see your long term happiness. So therefore it's better for me to force you to do this than it is to what you decide in that situation. Like I remember with Quincy, which is who my older Brother and also my experience. But I share this because I saw this and I realized I could not say anything about Scouting. Quincy did not like Scouting, like, more than all of us. No. Quincy hated scouting 10 times more. And I remember the first time I ever heard any of us siblings fight with my dad was my older brother and my dad about Scouting. And I remember hearing that. I'm like, I can never fight about this. I have to be the good boy that goes and says yes to everything, because look what happened with Quincy. I never want to feel even secondhand trauma of that event. I'm like, I cannot feel that way. I can't be under that pressure, that flame. And so, yes, scouting was definitely not.

Mason Laing [00:22:23] That's a big thing, too. Secondhand trauma from seeing your siblings getting in trouble and everything, Seeing things that happen to them with mother and father and stuff like that. It's like, I can't never do that. And so they're like, things when we're younger that like. Like scar us, I guess it's like, I'm. I can never do that. Like, what do you mean? It's so. You're totally right. Britain.

Britton Laing [00:22:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] So Britain. You were a little bit more into Scouting than Mason.

Britton Laing [00:22:45] Well, because. Well, okay.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] Because of force and trauma.

Britton Laing [00:22:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] And.

Britton Laing [00:22:50] And here's what I'll say. Like, I. I made my personality the church. Like, I didn't have a personality. I didn't have a me, a self. Like, I was whatever the church labeled or put on me. That was. That was who I was.

Mason Laing [00:23:03] I am Jesus.

Britton Laing [00:23:06] I mean, it also leads to that. But it's like, it's this. Yeah, I'll talk about it more later, too. But that's where it was at.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] Heaviness behind that.

Mason Laing [00:23:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] We'll get to. I mean, if I think about the founding of Scouting, wasn't the founding of Scouting to kind of prepare young men for the military? And so isn't. Isn't Scouting kind of like a. A toxic masculinity? Kind of like training for young boys? And then. So for a lot of kids that just don't fit that mold and maybe just for all boys, in some ways, it can be unhealthy. And that's so. It's so interesting that that's part of the more Mormon experience, not just because of the toxic masculinity, but also because of the abuse that we now know was rampant within the Boy Scouts. It's so interesting that. That our leaders felt like that was an inextricable part of an upper unit. Yeah.

Mason Laing [00:23:58] Don't you just love the military, Brandon. It's your favorite thing. Oh, my gosh, I love the military.

Britton Laing [00:24:02] Well, no, like, just to show you, like, I'll talk more about later, but one of the, like, where I was at, like, with the church, I thought, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a dentist. I'm gonna go into the military to be. Be a dentist. Because that's what you do. Like, that's, it's like, that's how you, you're, you're successful. That's how I'll finally have self worth. And so it's very, very much so. Yeah, I'll talk more about it later, but church.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] Okay. Anything else you guys want to talk about? Kind of your preteen years? Either of you, like, what happened to you individually, what happened in your family? Anything before we jump into the teen years?

Britton Laing [00:24:35] I do something that was very formative for me too. And it's interesting because I mentioned it, because I didn't. It's not so much a church thing. And I see its play in who I became or, like, where I was at with the church. My older brother, he had two kidney transplants. Well, he had a kidney transplant when he was 12, when I was like 10. And that was for me, like, being a kid, I was still in oblivious Britain mode. But I wasn't so oblivious to the fact that I'm like, I need to be the people user in this family. Like, right now, shit's going. Yeah, yeah. Shit's going down with my older brother

John Dehlin [00:25:18] and I could have died.

Britton Laing [00:25:19] Yeah, exactly. I'm like. And I could see the stress that my parents, both my parents were in of like, the worry and the fear. And I'm like, I can't be a problem child. I have to be good Britain to be able to make their lives easier. Because that's going down right now. And that's not the blame for anything because that's just life and what happened and being a kid. But that is something that did play a lot into who I became and some of my trauma and things I'm working through.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] So what I think I'm hearing you say is that the combination of kind of the boxes that your Mormon military upbringing kind of needed you to be in, plus this trauma with your brother, maybe this Britain land was just kind of your way of escaping.

Britton Laing [00:25:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] And your way of coping with not being able to kind of get to know yourself and be who you maybe wanted or needed to be. You were always having to play this external role. So you had this bifurcation between your internal life oblivious and then the external life where you probably didn't have a lot of self knowledge.

Britton Laing [00:26:18] Yeah, very much so.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Okay.

Mason Laing [00:26:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] That probably wasn't super healthy.

Mason Laing [00:26:22] No.

Britton Laing [00:26:22] Oh, absolutely not.

Mason Laing [00:26:24] What did you say?

Britton Laing [00:26:24] I said, are you like a therapist? But absolutely not. It was, it was not healthy and it led to a lot of long term consequences that I'm. I'm still doing, dealing with today. So.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] So sorry.

Britton Laing [00:26:36] Oh, that's okay. I mean, I mean that's, that's humanity. We all, we all have shit that happens to us and it's like learning to deal with it and to be. Enjoy life.

Mason Laing [00:26:43] So it was kind of nice though because growing up I always saw Britain. Brynn was the. Was the perfect. He was the perfect child.

Britton Laing [00:26:49] He was the one perfect in terms of.

Mason Laing [00:26:51] He went and swept the floor and he did the dishes and he read the book. Fun fact, I've actually never read the Book of Mormon anyways.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Are you proud of that or ashamed of that?

Mason Laing [00:27:00] I'm kind of proud of it now. But I, but like always seeing Brin, he was the per child and I always watched him growing up, I was like, girl, I ain't gonna ever be like that. Like, not in the fact that I don't want to. It's that I could never be up to his like, level of being that. And so for me it was like, well, I better just be my own person. Like, I better be myself. And so Bryn took a lot of the bullets for all of us.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] And you're so your person. This is a family system dynamic. Your personality becomes shaped by not wanting to be Britain. And so you're kind of. That pushes you in a different direction.

Mason Laing [00:27:39] My own individual, right?

Britton Laing [00:27:41] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 3 [00:27:42] To be your own blink order psychology right here.

Mason Laing [00:27:45] Let's go.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] Middle child. I mean, that's part of what this interview is about. I think a lot of mental health, you know, is tied up in this interview. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I, I'm getting a sense for the. How the family's developing. Sounds complex. Yeah, sounds intense. Yeah.

Britton Laing [00:28:02] I'd always joke. I mean, jokingly, I didn't actually, I say I would joke, but there's part of me that actually felt it. I'm like, oh, well, Quincy's the oldest, Mason's the youngest. The baby of the family. Ashley is technically a middle child, but she's a girl. The only girl in the family. I'm like, and then there's Burton. And so I would joke about that, but I think there's part of me who's like, well, crap. Like what am I? Who is Britain?

Mason Laing [00:28:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] So, okay, talking really quickly about like Heavenly Father, Jesus and your prayer and spiritual life as kids before your teens. Anything worth mentioning there?

Britton Laing [00:28:40] Yeah, I mean I, I prayed every night. I. I remember like, because I thought and like I felt good when we sang primary songs. Like, I loved like trying to be like Jesus and those things and so. And it was fun, like reading the Book of Mormon, like picture books that. The comics version. I mean it's probably awesome too because it was a bunch of men in that were shirtless, but. Oh, y. But it was. And so for me, the Nephi's kind of hot, right?

Mason Laing [00:29:06] Oh yeah.

Britton Laing [00:29:08] Flaming Limeral tying him up.

Guest 3 [00:29:10] Oh my.

Britton Laing [00:29:13] Sorry, sorry, viewers, you're making.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Carol laughs John loves it when I

Guest 3 [00:29:21] blush and I'm like, oh, I do remember that 10 year old Kara going,

John Dehlin [00:29:25] boy, oh my God, Shara's vibing with you right now.

Britton Laing [00:29:31] But yeah, I loved, like, I loved. I was that kid who was loud and singing and now like singing at the top of my lungs all the primary songs, prayer and scripture study. Like, I read the Book of Mormon. Like, read some. Sometimes I'd read just a picture book, but yeah, I was very much so in the church and found peace and I didn't think even twice about anything pretty much at that kind of point in my life.

Mason Laing [00:29:53] I wasn't really. Yeah, I.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] You weren't into it as much.

Mason Laing [00:29:57] No, I remember the first. I've never read the Book of Mormon, so one time my mom was like, are you reading your scriptures? I was maybe 7 or 8 and I was like, what? Like, this is like a requirement girl. Like, and so it so happens, and she's like, oh, you should probably.

Britton Laing [00:30:14] There you go.

Mason Laing [00:30:14] Oh, you should probably be reading your scriptures, Mason. And so she gets out the picture book and.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Okay.

Mason Laing [00:30:18] And so like I read two pages. I'm like, this is nice. And it was never like, for me, it was never like, Mason, you have to read the Book of Mormon and you have to like be the perfect, like, you know, Mormon to. I never knew the consequences until like later. And so as a child I. I didn't pray. And then sometimes mom, well, mom would usually say every night, make sure you say your prayers and like leave the bedroom and everything. And so I'd like be. I'd lay down and be like, oh crap. And I'd like flip over and be like, dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this day. But besides that, I was never, yeah, never that person.

Britton Laing [00:30:53] And it's interesting that you bring that up because for Quincy and I, we had. We cycled through a bunch of different things to like, try to incentivize, like chores, exercise and other things like that and scriptures. And so we had like payments one time. Like, we've had times where like privilege is taken away. Like. And so there's very much. It was, it was a choice, but if we didn't choose, there were consequences.

Mason Laing [00:31:18] Damn, I never had that.

Britton Laing [00:31:22] So, I mean, that's just the blessing of. Not blessing, curse of being a younger child. Because as parents go on, they're like, we're tired

John Dehlin [00:31:31] or being strict, turns out often doesn't work or backfires or something.

Britton Laing [00:31:35] Joke's on you in a reverse card.

Recognizing Same-Sex Attraction as Mormon Youth

John Dehlin [00:31:39] Okay. So the research that I did for my dissertation, a lot of LGBT Mormon youth kind of didn't start feeling super different just in terms of attraction or gender or sexual identity until kind of puberty. But that wasn't always the case. Sometimes getting a sense of feeling different would happen around age 8 or 9. How was it for you guys in terms of gender identity or sexual identity prior to puberty?

Britton Laing [00:32:09] Do you want to go first?

Mason Laing [00:32:10] Sean's like, why don't you guys feel a little fruity?

Britton Laing [00:32:15] No, you can go first.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Britain first. Yeah.

Britton Laing [00:32:18] Well, I remember very distinctly we were at Hanauma Bay. So I was like eight or nine. Hanauma Bay, it's this beautiful beach in Hawaii because we lived in Oahu for three years. Cause Pearl harbor is right there. And that's where dad worked. I was down in Hanauma Bay. And we're. And it's this gorgeous, like cliffs like that protect this deep down beach. It's amazing. Anyhow, we're walking there and dad kind of looks over at me. He's like, you would tell me if you're attracted to guys, right? And at that very moment, I had never. It never even crossed my mind. But I looked over, I got shirtless guy. I'm like, I would tell you. And then I'm like. But also in my head, I'm like, you look pretty nice. But I'm like, I don't know. I just was clueless to my sexuality at the point. So it's funny because that's like a marking. Like, I knew. I'm like, oh, well, maybe I do know something. And dad had asked about it. And so. And then another big thing was I'm.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] He had asked about it. What do you mean?

Britton Laing [00:33:11] He had asked like if I were. Was gay or if I would tell him if I was gay. And I said yes at what age? I was eight.

Mason Laing [00:33:18] Nine.

Britton Laing [00:33:18] Eight or nine?

John Dehlin [00:33:19] Is he asking you that at eight or nine?

Britton Laing [00:33:20] Yeah, I think so. It wasn't so much like, are you. It was more. You would tell me if you felt that way, right? Like a trust sort of thing. Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] That's kind of young.

Britton Laing [00:33:30] Yeah, I know. I know. So I. And then. But I do remember, like, distinctly being so jealous of Mason when back in Hawaii, like eight or nine still. And Ashley had this belle dress, and it was the most beautiful satin yellow I've ever seen in my life. And when she twirled in it, like, the skirt went out.

Mason Laing [00:33:50] You look like a cupcake, bitch. Sorry.

Britton Laing [00:33:54] And so I. Sorry, child. I'm sorry. But it was gorgeous. And I remember it was okay for Mason to spin in it, which I love myself. Mason had a spin in it, but when I went to ask if I could spin it, and my dad's like, daughter, mom. I can't remember. Who was like, no, boys don't. Like, you're too old for that. I'm like, well, fuck this shit.

Mason Laing [00:34:17] I mean, I don't want to spend

Britton Laing [00:34:18] in the yellow dress. And so I do remember that. And I can look back now, but I didn't ever admit anything like that at that age to kind of jump ahead. I didn't even admit I was gay to myself until I was 17, even though I had all those feelings. That's when I finally stopped and realized I'm attracted to men and, like, told

John Dehlin [00:34:41] myself, but started to have inklings as

Britton Laing [00:34:43] young as eight or nine. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Yeah.

Britton Laing [00:34:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Okay. Because. Because sometimes people want to blame it on all sorts of different things or say that it's stuff that happens in your teenage trauma, but for you, you were no. 1 by 8 or 9.

Britton Laing [00:34:57] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] And had you been taught anything about. Would you even known what gay was?

Britton Laing [00:35:02] No, I had. I had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] So you would have never even heard of it?

Britton Laing [00:35:05] No.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] So this was just occurring to you?

Britton Laing [00:35:07] Yeah. I'm like, oh, this is. This is something I enjoy. Because when you're a kid, you don't have these labels to put on yourself. You just. Is what I like. And I like it, and there's nothing wrong with it until someone says, you shouldn't do that, and then you're like, crap.

Mason Laing [00:35:17] Well, dang it.

Britton Laing [00:35:18] Yeah. What am I doing wrong?

John Dehlin [00:35:20] So how about you, Mason?

Mason Laing [00:35:23] Okay. Like, looking back on it now, I was like, I see the limp wrist girl, but as a child, I like. I love playing with Barbies. Like, the more the feminine things. And, like, I love playing With Barbies. And I loved doing dress up with Ashley. Like, my sister Ashley. And I loved when she put her makeup on me and everything. And I remember looking back on it now, I didn't even realize it, but whenever I was at Walmart and I had to go to the bathroom, I'd walk through the men's underwear section just to take a peek. And so, like, looking back, and I was like, oh, yeah. But, like, back then, I was like, I never. I never knew. I never had any inkling, like, admitting to yourself. Admitting to. I didn't even know what. I remember when we were younger, we used to call being gay purple.

Britton Laing [00:36:07] Oh, yeah?

Mason Laing [00:36:08] Yeah. Because purple was like a boy and a girl color. I don't even know why.

Britton Laing [00:36:13] I didn't know where it came from.

Mason Laing [00:36:14] Me either. But, like, still. So, like, I didn't even know what it was until someone. Like, I think I was watching Ellen DeGeneres because I loved Finding Nemo. And, like, Ellen DeGeneres was Finding Dory. Like, she was finding. She was dory, but. And I remember mom walked past one time. She was like, you know. You know she's a lesbian, right? I'm like, what?

Britton Laing [00:36:36] Like, who's that?

Mason Laing [00:36:38] Who's a lesbian? No. And she's like, she likes women. I'm like, okay. Like, I was like, okay, like, cool. And then Mom's like, okay, and, like, goes away.

Britton Laing [00:36:49] I'm like, check that parenting box.

Mason Laing [00:36:52] So it's like, at that. In that moment, I was like, oh, like now. And like, I knew what it was. And then I, like, obviously, like, learned more as got older, but I never knew, I guess.

Britton Laing [00:37:03] Or admit it to yourself. Yeah.

Mason Laing [00:37:04] Oh, I didn't even admit it to myself. Is. Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, like, when I got like, 14 maybe, but did you

John Dehlin [00:37:11] guys notice things about each other as kids?

Mason Laing [00:37:13] No.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] In that way.

Britton Laing [00:37:14] Oh, I mean, like, just my. Like, I can look back now and like, in hindsight's 20 20, I can go. I can look and see, like, oh, well, there's all these, like, these mannerisms and things that are not necessary. Because that's the thing. Just because you're attracted to men doesn't mean you act a certain way, doesn't mean that all gay people are, like, have those mannerisms. But there are certain things that are part of Mason's personality. I'm like, oh, well, that's kind of cool. I mean, kind of makes sense. So I can look back now, but in the process, no. Well, until. Until I, like, up. Until I came out to you, like, that Year before I had inklings. But I'm like, no, we'll get there. We'll get there.

Mason Laing [00:37:50] I didn't know. Yeah, I just didn't know anything.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Something that I'm still trying to really solidify in my mind and something that I think a lot of our listeners are still probably not clear about, is just the real difference between gender identity and sexual attraction. They're totally different axes, whether you're more typically masculine or typically feminine or anywhere in between, or different areas of the spectrum based on different behaviors or presentation. Like, that's its own spectrum. And you can be. I mean, in theory, you can be assigned male at birth, have more characteristically feminine traits, but still be attracted to women. Like, there's any sort of combination there. But gender is its own axis, and then sexual attraction is its own axis. And so, you know, even when you're talking about, like, being interested in playing in. With. With Barbies, that's a gender sort of attribute that's sometimes assigned to the female gender.

Mason Laing [00:38:56] And I'm.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] But it has nothing to do with sexuality, especially because you're a kid at the time. But we. We are just so awful at really separating and understanding of gender identity versus sexual identity. People just don't. People just still can't get that through their heads. And we all. I promise me. I promise you, listen to me, over the next five or 10 years, gender is becoming and will continue to become a major issue for you, for your children, for your grandchildren. We all need to get really clear. We've kind of had a bit of a sexual, you know, LGBT revolution, LGB revolution. The gender revolution is here, and it's coming even more. And we really need to get clear about the differences between those two, because they're not the same, and we inter. Intermingle them and confuse them all the time.

Mason Laing [00:39:45] Yeah, and I wasn't. Sorry, I wasn't saying, like.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] No, I. I didn't say. That wasn't correct.

Mason Laing [00:39:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] That wasn't correct. Yeah.

Mason Laing [00:39:49] I just want to, like, say, like, just because I play with Barbies doesn't mean like. Like, street men can play Barbies, too. I'm not judging anything.

Britton Laing [00:39:56] I'm just saying I think that's the power of. For me, one of my benefits of leaving the church is being able to have an open mind and actually learn and accept those things and to realize that it's okay to sometimes mess things up and not get it right. And, like, oops, I'm sorry. I'm growing. Thanks for being patient with me while I'm Learning. But it's so powerful to be able to learn more and to be able to get there.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] Yeah, I didn't mention that. To be corrective only so that even in this interview, we can just be thinking about those as separate things.

Mason Laing [00:40:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Because. Because they are. They are different. Okay. Anything else? Should we start kind of with your kind of also? Oh, go ahead.

Mason Laing [00:40:36] Can I just say one thing? Like, I don't know, like, whoever's listening to this out there, but, like, I just want to say, like, being gay, being lesbian, being trans, like, anything like LGBTQ plus, like, it's not a choice. Like, it ain't no choice. Like, I'm not choosing to be this way or anything. And, you know, maybe if it was a choice, I would choose to be this way. No, but.

Britton Laing [00:40:56] Because you're pretty fabulous.

Mason Laing [00:40:57] Yeah, I am, but it's not a choice. But.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Well, let's. Let's just dive right in, because one of the most awful, odious stereotypes or perceptions, especially within Mormonism, but within most conservative religious traditions, is people's erroneous theories about why people are gay. Right. Whether it's because they were abused, whether it's because. And this is stuff the Mormon Church still teaches gay people today that they had a, quote, distant father and overbearing mother. Right. Or they didn't have the right relationships with young men. You know, enough, you know, wood chopping and camping and, you know, athletic behaviors. And you've probably heard a million of these. You guys are both saying that at age 8 or 9, you're feeling this stuff and, you know, do you guys have anything you want to say about that?

Mason Laing [00:41:55] I know plenty of, like, gay people like, my age or older than me who have, like, an amazing, like, relationship with their father. Like, they did everything with their dad and they played sports with their father and everything. And, well, all the, you know, traditionally masculine things.

Britton Laing [00:42:11] Look at the Olympics.

Mason Laing [00:42:12] Yeah, exactly. Like. And even then, they were gay, so it was never. I hate it.

Britton Laing [00:42:20] Boils my blood.

Mason Laing [00:42:20] Yeah, it does. It, like, makes me angry because it's. It also, like, gives me a sense of, like, that someone else had a role, like, in, you know, in what said, like, someone. Someone else has a role in who I am. And obviously people, like, play parts in it. Like, it's as if.

Britton Laing [00:42:39] I don't know.

Mason Laing [00:42:40] Yeah. A third party is like, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] And then there's the idea that it's a choice.

Mason Laing [00:42:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] What about that?

Mason Laing [00:42:48] I. Girl, I can't.

Britton Laing [00:42:50] I. I guess I. I. Something. An interesting question I had. I. Someone have kind of brought up the other day is like, I'd like to ask every straight persons, like, well, when did you know you were straight? Like, how do you know you're straight? And like, how do you know you're attracted to the opposite gender? And it's, it's this question of I, I didn't choose this. And then especially the biggest thing is do you think I would go through what I've gone through just literally and choose this?

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Meaning what?

Britton Laing [00:43:20] Yeah, because we're about to talk about this. Yeah, I'm sorry. No, I would not.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Not that it's not fabulous.

Britton Laing [00:43:28] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] But society makes it so hard.

Britton Laing [00:43:30] No, exactly.

Mason Laing [00:43:31] Like, you really think I'm doing that? Like a lot of another misconception is like, I'm doing this retention bitch. I love attention, but I'm not doing it. Like, I'm not going through all this crap just to be like, look at me.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Like, straight men don't like attention. Right.

Britton Laing [00:43:45] Women like anyways opinions.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] And I'll just add, from a scientific standpoint, there's literally zero evidence that abuse, parenting strategies, birth order, in terms of the social dynamics of birth order have anything to do with this. And there's no scientific evidence that there, that it's a choice for almost everyone. This is something that happens either genetically and, or in the womb with the hormonal, you know, the, the brain development in the womb. That's kind of when, when gender and sexual identity is largely formed. And there's no evidence that parenting styles abus any of those things matters. That's something that's actually quite conclusive scientifically. And birth order can influence it. They found that the more children somebody has, the more likely that sons down in the birth order are likely to be gay. But even then it's, you know, it's, it's not as clear cut.

Guest 3 [00:44:51] But anyway, evidence really helped me. By the way, what's that about? Two years ago, when my husband started listening to this podcast, actually, and I was a TBM Mormon, not tbm, but I was still in the church and my husband and I were renovating a house. He's listening to podcasts all day. Oh, Aaron, what are you listening to? What's it about? And he's like, there's some really good evidence to show that the reasons why people are gay. And it was stuff I just had never heard before and things about birth order and just listening to the science on it and. Because when you're raised in the gospel, I guess you kind of just fall back on like, this is a trial from God. That needs to be overcome, you know, and so I just encourage anyone who's listening to this and they're a little bit hesitant to go from the trial from God type of idea around like, you know, same sex attraction to, to really lead with empathy and lead with what the science is saying and away from what the religious zealots in Salt Lake City, Utah have been saying for a while. So that really got me around. And that was, that was literally just two years ago that I had to have an eye opening experience. And thanks to my husband for that.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] Yeah. And the idea that it's a choice, you know, we, we surveyed over a thousand Mormons, LGBTQ Mormons who tried to change their sexual orientation and literally 0% were able to change it. So if 0% were able to change their sexual orientation, it's, it's clearly not a choice. That's out of a thousand, right? Yeah.

Britton Laing [00:46:12] Yeah.

Mason Laing [00:46:13] Can I say one more thing?

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Yeah.

Mason Laing [00:46:16] Like the idea that like, this is just my trial in life. This is what's happening to me once I go to heaven, I'll be straight. I understand, like, I understand like thinking like that, but when you've, like, when you're in your own shoes, I guess, like when I, in my own experience, like it's, it almost feels kind of like crappy. Like to think that like who an integral part of who you are, like that you do not choose is going to be changed later just because it's, it's a sin now and it's a trial that you have and it just, it's like, it hurts, it's hurtful. Like totally.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] Yeah, yeah, we'll come back to that too. But that's. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Okay, so let's just talk Britain. Let's talk about your kind of adolescence.

Britton Laing [00:47:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] And how this, the fun. The fun. And I'm saying that in a dark way, this is where things get serious, right?

Britton Laing [00:47:12] Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'm sorry, you gotta hold your notes.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] It does not matter if you hold your notes or look at them.

Britton Laing [00:47:19] I just like, they're like a comfort blanket. I mean, I had a lot of those when I was a kid. So celebrate.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] Nice. Yeah.

Britton Laing [00:47:24] So kind of just to start, it's like, so here, here I am in this family with the church and like, I've already said, like, with how the church has set up our family. And it's, it's very much so. There's one way or the highway. And so, and also as a kid, I'm like, I need to do what's right. And so I'm now going into teenage years. This is kind of when I finally. I kind of went out of Britain land. I started in eighth grade. And I remember there's this one boy. I'll bless him if he's watching this. He was. At the time, I didn't realize I was attracted to him, but I wanted to sit by him. I wanted to, like, have him over, invite him, all those things.

Mason Laing [00:48:03] To be their bff. I know.

Britton Laing [00:48:04] I wanted to be their best friend and healthy and, like, I want only their attention on me.

Mason Laing [00:48:09] Yeah.

Britton Laing [00:48:10] Anywho. I remember feeling all those things and just feeling, like, frustrated about that. And I remember people asking me, like, are you gay? I'm like, of course I'm not gay. Like, what are you, mama about gay? No, but very much actually, this is it stuck in the fact that everything, like, all of a sudden about me, like, I had to conform everything. My body, my thoughts, my mannerisms, how I speak, the tone, like, how high my voice went. It had to be controlled because I was scared of being seen that way, even though I didn't realize it in my. I'm like, no, I'm good. Because gay to me meant bad. Gay to me meant.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] Had you been taught things in the church about being gay by this point?

Britton Laing [00:48:51] Yes. Yeah, I had. In the fact that that was a sin. It was a sin to have homosexual relationships. And then also just. I can't remember how I heard it. I think maybe through jokes that my aunts and uncles have made or my dad or my mom or. And then purple, we. Mason talked about that. Like, we had a nickname for it. And so even amongst us kids, like, that saying gay was bad. Yeah, even. Even like, saying the word like. Oh, like. Like it means happy. And, like, you would giggle because, like, it was. It was a naughty word. And like, it was on par with like. And damn, sorry, all my people, listeners, but, like, it was on par with all those words. And so I had already internalized that. And then I take after my father in the fact that I'm very perfectionistic. And I wanted love. I wanted to feel loved. And enough. And especially with the situation at home and with how church works, the way I can get noticed, the way I can get loved was through being good, through serving, through getting things done, through making sure I'd be. Making sure I was always in line and never had to bother anyone. I was never in anyone's way.

John Dehlin [00:50:04] Being righteous, too.

Britton Laing [00:50:04] Being righteous, exactly. And reading my scriptures. And so I got through God. And then it also and it's a multi factor thing that I'm still working through. But it's also. It wasn't just like with mannerisms and speaking and other things. It was also with physical stuff because no fault. My dad, like physical fitness was very important to my father because of our family and some of the health problems we've had.

John Dehlin [00:50:26] He is a fit specimen.

Britton Laing [00:50:28] Yes, he very much so is, as

John Dehlin [00:50:30] ex Mormon Reddit will show.

Britton Laing [00:50:31] Yeah, unfortunately that. But because of just how things growing up and some of the roles of like being required to run, like either to run or do a sport, it led to me like I hated my body. Like, sorry. And I'm still getting through that.

John Dehlin [00:50:49] Tissues are below.

Britton Laing [00:50:50] Thank you. Like my body was evil. And then you get into church and I finally started to become aware of these feelings I'm having. And what are we taught? We're taught that the natural man is enemy to God and has been since the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever unless he yields the enticings of the Holy Spirit and putteth off a natural man within and becometh a child. Sorry, I can go on. No, that's good. It's like you drill that into you. And so I was taught that my body was evil. Like any feeling I had any pleasure, any like food. If I ever ate something that was pleasurable, I couldn't eat food that made me happy. I couldn't do anything that brought pleasure because I like to my core was evil and gross and terrible. And the only way I could feel enough good was through doing the things that the church says. Like it's like you mentioned earlier with my parents, it's that cycle that they give you where it's. You are broken. The fall of Adam made you an evil person. The only way you can be saved is a third party that you have to go to him and repent. And great, you've repented, but you screw up one more time and all those other sins, they fall right back on top of you. And so this is this vicious cycle of guilt. I remember. Sorry. I'm very passionate about this. I remember shake all the time you need. Thank you. I remember kneeling. And I also have OCD tendencies.

Shame, Scrupulosity, and Confessions to Bishops

John Dehlin [00:52:07] Scrupulosity.

Britton Laing [00:52:08] Yeah. And so I had. I remember praying, like having 40 minute hour long prayers where I would. I was so scared that if I didn't pray for something or if I forgot one thing, I would. That thing, that thing would happen. I had to make sure I always had it. And it became this, like, it became my identity. Like that's who I was. It was. I was happy because I was enough because I was the Mormon boy who stood up for Christ in schools. I was the person that said that would be there for everyone to sorry in the church. Sorry, sorry.

Mason Laing [00:52:43] You okay? I'm so sad.

Britton Laing [00:52:45] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] What are you feeling, Mason?

Britton Laing [00:52:51] You make me cry, damn it.

Mason Laing [00:52:56] Like I look at myself, I'm like, Mason, you're such a mess. Like what did you go through as a child? I hear Britain's story like God damn like girl, what do you have to cry about? Like, obviously all of our experiences are our own. But

Britton Laing [00:53:14] thanks, like you're very sweet.

Mason Laing [00:53:20] Thanks. Continue.

Britton Laing [00:53:23] Thanks. But yeah, I gave up myself and I was proud of it. And I was happiest when I looked skinny. I was happiest when I was.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] So it's eating disordered behavior, right?

Britton Laing [00:53:36] Yeah, that too. I was happiest when I had ran three, four miles. I was happiest when I had made sure to remember to pray. And then I would get up at 4:30 in the morning to be able to read my scriptures for half an hour and shower and get ready and everything before to get to seminary on time at 06:00'. Clock. And I remember having this like mental and emotional distress. Like I couldn't be late. I could. I had to toe every line. And it didn't just stop at church things, it went to school too. It was very much so. Like I had to be perfect. I had to have the grades I had to have. I had to make sure all my teachers liked me. I had to make sure other people liked me too. Because whatever they thought of me, that was what I was. So sorry. Like looking back on that, I'm like poor, sad little Britain. And so that, that's kind of where I was. And then I. If it's okay, I don't want to take up too much time. But I like throughout all that too. I like the sexual piece which is very important because of how the church treats it. And that was also very much a big part of my shame, my self hatred. Because I remember starting around 9, 10, I would have dreams and I would do actually even younger. I remember being six or seven, doing things to pleasure myself and never reaching because at that age you don't reach an orgasm. But I remember doing that thing and thinking nothing of it because no one ever told me wrong. Except one time where I remember being told because I was younger. That's not what you do. Don't touch yourself there. And so I'm like, oh. And I kind of Put it off. Because I have a tiny bit of my mom in that way, which I love. She can just like, whatever, whatever. We don't need that in our lives. But I put that off until I remember the first time. Sorry to be graphic, but the first time I had an orgasm, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I've done something wrong. I shouldn't feel that strongly about anything. The pleasure aspect of it. And so it became a cycle of absolute guilt around my body. I wouldn't look at myself in the mirror. I wouldn't look down at myself, I wouldn't touch myself. And then I'd go through these cycles of, like, where I would do things and immediately feel like this overcoming guilt of where I was hellish, I was evil, I was. There's no hope for me. I'd have to repent. And then also this absolute fear because I have had and still have in some senses, a fear of authority figures. And this idea of, like, I don't want to. Like, do I have to go to the bishop? Do I have to go explain to him? I was about to say him or her. I'm like, wait, no, that's not how the church works. Do I have to go explain to him that I went and like, self pleasure, like, is that sin next to killing? And so I was there. And thankfully, something I will mention, my dad, I didn't know this, but my dad had talked to every bishop we'd been to and told him, you are not to ask my children about masturbation. You're not allowed to do that. And they all. I applaud him for that because I never even heard about that word until I think my mom was the one. The first time I heard someone say it, and it was funny, I actually remember where we were. It was like this curve on Washington. She kind of like, yeah, that thing, and like, went away from the subject. It was the best, anywho. But none of my bishops asked about. But I remember feeling that guilt, like, should I? Should I not? And then also feeling very much so, like, I need to. I'll get personal revelation about it, so I'll pray about it. And through personal revelation, I would feel that it's fine. I was told by God, whatever that means through the Spirit, that I'm okay doing it and I feel okay, and I do it. And then there'd be a lesson in church. There'd be. Someone would say something. There'd be a leader. And so it's immediately back in the guilt cycle. Maybe I felt that wrong Maybe I'm wrong for feeling that. And then I'd read about it in, like, Fourth Strength of Youth. I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm evil. And then, like, the things I would think about, too, because, like, even though what I would think about is very much men, like, I didn't put two and two together in that sense, because I'm like, I can't. No, I'm not. Like, I'm not gay. I can't be. That's not an option. And so that's kind of the cycle of where I was in high school. If you were to look back at high school Britain, he was a sad, sad, hurt little boy that he woke up, went to set, like, read his scriptures, showered, went to seminary. Like, sat there in seminary paying attention. Like, wouldn't talk to other people during seminary, would play piano for somebody when he had to go to school and just go through every single motion to, like, get exactly, exactly the perfect score and everything I could. And then come home, run and work for four, six hours on homework, depending on the day, because I was in AP classes. And, like, I have to. I have to do the best for that. And I think I took a 12 or 13 AP classes over the course of my high school years.

Mason Laing [00:58:24] I never see him.

Britton Laing [00:58:25] No. Like, yeah, like, my family didn't, like, especially that first year. Like, they didn't see me because those CG tendencies would go into how I read, how I studied. I'd have to reread passages over and over again because I was so damn worried about missing a single point on a reading quiz the next day. That was like, five worth five points. And so it was this cycle of self hatred. Not even self hatred. Like, I just didn't. I couldn't be me. And so I had to destroy everything that was a resemblance of who Britain was. So that's kind of where it was.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] And that's just as a little mental health injection. So scrupulosity is religious obsessive compulsive disorder. It's actually what I studied for my master's degree. We've done several Mormon Stories, podcast episodes about it. I actually heard Terrell and Fiona Givens talking about scrupulosity, just, like, in the past few months. So the church is starting to catch on about this because it turns out it's rampant in the Mormon missionary field. But what's super pernicious about scrupulosity, especially in a Mormon context, is that you said you were a sad little boy, yet as you rifled off all the activities you were engaged in, that's like every parent's dream and every bishop's dream. So you're hyper performing. You're reinforced as the model child. Your parents are over the moon, excited, and yet inside you're feeling what?

Britton Laing [00:59:48] Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Like, either that or terrible guilt. And it's. And so it's not great.

John Dehlin [00:59:54] It's not great for you.

Britton Laing [00:59:56] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:59:57] So even though you're living the dream.

Britton Laing [00:59:59] Yeah. And that. And then. And then that adds another layer of guilt. You're like, I'm doing everything. What am I doing wrong? There's something wrong with me. My core must be broken. I must be broken, because this isn't working like it should. And, yeah, that's kind of where I was before.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] And so if you don't have, quote, the spirit because you feel bad, then

Britton Laing [01:00:21] you think, yeah, I think that I'm evil. I'm not worthy of the spirit. And that's the biggest attack to anyone's psyche worthiness. Like, who is anyone to tell me if I'm worthy or enough? Because no one is. I am enough. Period. No qualifiers. But I'm there. That I'm there now. But. But then I'm like, I. I'm nothing. Absolutely nothing. And so. And then. And then also with the gay. Gay stuff, like my dad. The gay stuff, my dad. Sorry to switch topics, if that's okay, but my. My dad is very much so, like. Like, he said, hi, libido. He's like, oh, so all my kids are gonna be like that. And well, he's. No, not all the rest of them, but he's Right. But he's very much so.

John Dehlin [01:01:03] You're your father's son? Is that what you're saying?

Britton Laing [01:01:05] Yes. Yes, I am. And so he's sitting there asking, like, who do you like? Like, which girl do you like? And I remember, even as a kid, I'm like, well, crap, I gotta pick someone. And so I would, like, we'd ask, like, who's your favorite celebrity? I'm like, Drew Barrymore. She's real attractive. Drew Barrymore.

Mason Laing [01:01:19] She's just sexy. Emma Watson.

Britton Laing [01:01:22] Oh. So I had to pick someone. I'm like. Because I have to pass as a straight. And I remember I had this great friend. I love her to pieces. Natalie Hawes. She is amazing. Anywho, I decided, like, well, she's the girl I'm gonna like. And so we, in a sense, like, thankfully, it worked out that she's not so much, like, she wanted physical stuff. Like, she was more like she's very much so in the church. And she's awesome. And she's very much so about emotional connection, which I love about her. We get along because we enjoy the same things, like Jane Austen and all that fun stuff. But she was the girl I dated, and dad was very happy and wanted to support that. And so I remember my senior year, I forgot about this for my senior trip. He's like, you know what? I'm taking? Like for my birthday, they put a. Like, they put a little sideshow, like, I have a surprise for you. And they surprised me with a trip to New York. And they're like, guess what? You can take Natalie. I'm like, crap. I'm like, okay, this is gonna be great. And so I remember just. It's so sad because New York is amazing and beautiful and going there and just feeling like, just like out of it. Just like out of body, essentially. Like, I wasn't there because I was constantly stressed about my dad, who very loving, like, wanting us to hold hands, wanting us to kiss. I'm like, that's not what I want to do. But I'm like, I'll do these things. And so it was just very much. I was in my own head. I share that story to share how we. Like when you're trying to do what's right, you can do anything, everything. You can date girls. And I bring this up also in the fact that when people are like. When people are. They talk to you, they say, oh, well, it's choice, isn't it? I'm like, honey boo, I tried. I did everything.

Mason Laing [01:03:12] I tried real hard. Girl.

Britton Laing [01:03:13] Yeah. It's not like I was not trying to be straight and be with a girl. So that's where I was pre mission.

John Dehlin [01:03:20] Yeah, well, people, I. I kind of want to have to connect the dots for a straight folk. But like, imagine you're, you know. So, okay, so for you straight men out there, imagine. Imagine some alternative universe where you're a teenage boy with all these hormones for girls, but society is making you like men and as a teenage boy and making you walk around and hold hands with the man or maybe kiss a man or data man, because that's what society expects of you. That's the same thing that our gay youth and lesbian youth have to deal with. Imagine the aversion that many of you might feel being forced to live that way. And then imagine what that would feel like. And that's kind of what you were trying your best to do. But not super fun.

Guest 3 [01:04:11] No, really not like I could get kidnapped and have to be in like some kind of torture chamber and hold hands with a woman, we'll say, and I would hate it on day one and I'd hate it on day 45,000. You know, it's not something that I would be able to change. And I think putting it in those terms is helpful.

Britton Laing [01:04:30] But, yeah, awesome, thanks. So there I was kind of sad, graduated, didn't really have a high school experience, which, I mean, whatever, I'm not going to like more than that because, I mean, the past is the past. I can't change it. But so there it was.

John Dehlin [01:04:46] So by high school graduation, had you come out to yourself.

Britton Laing [01:04:49] Oh, yes, sorry. I should get caught.

John Dehlin [01:04:51] To anyone.

Britton Laing [01:04:51] No, no, no. I finally come out to myself at so 17. So I was like my 11th grade year end. 11th grade, beginning of 12th grade. I'm like, I'm gay.

John Dehlin [01:04:59] Did you try kissing? You tried kissing?

Britton Laing [01:05:01] Oh, I tried kissing on the cheek, of course, because she was. She was very much so. I only wanted it on the cheek. I'm like, okay. I'm like, that's more than I want it. So. But I didn't do it for you. No, no, I didn't. And I. I remember so that experience is kind of important. Like, when I finally, like, admitted it to myself, I'm like. My first thought was like, well, crap, what am I gonna do with the church? Like, because that's my worth. That's who I am. I'm like, I need to figure out, like, what does the church teach about being gay? Let me go into it. And so at the time, I think the church had the website. They've changed it now. Mormon and gay. And so I remember watching those videos and seeing all that stuff and like, this is. Oh, I guess, look, they did it. So therefore I. I must be able to do it because. And yeah.

Guest 3 [01:05:42] What do you mean by did what?

Britton Laing [01:05:44] Oh, well, for example, I also watched. I think there's. I can't remember the name. It's like star something.

John Dehlin [01:05:49] North Star.

Britton Laing [01:05:50] North Star.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] And there's also Voices of Hope by

Britton Laing [01:05:53] Ty Mansfield of mixed orientation marriages of like. Well, they married a woman. Like, he married a woman and they had a child together and they're okay and they're in church. And so therefore I must be able to. Or some of the other stories of like, Mormon stories.

Mason Laing [01:06:06] No, wait, what are they called? There's like mermaids. I don't know. There was like, like a YouTube channel where it do that. Sorry, continue.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] Yeah, no, I'll just say, for those who have no idea what we're talking about, the Mormon Church and most high demand orthodox religions are in this conundrum of interpreting the Quran or the Bible or the Old Testament as saying that it's, it's evil, sinful to be gay, but you know, 5 to 10% of their members are. And so they've got to figure out what to tell people. The Mormon Church for many, many years has a history of, well, if you go back 10 or 20, 30 years, that it's evil, that it's wicked, that it's perverted, that it's nasty, that it's terrible even to have the thoughts or the feelings. And so you've got these decades long experiences of, you know, electroshock therapy or conversion therapy or reparative therapy where people were put through mental, psychological torture to try and ungay them. And it had all sorts of disastrous consequences. And to be honest, this is still happening. So I don't want to talk about it like it's totally in the past, but at some point when we beat the church over the head with the inhumanity and when the of, of these techniques and when conversion reparative therapy started falling out of fashion in the broader United States and lawsuits started to happen where, where churches and organizations were being sued for this, this unethical, inhumane practice that was always backed by religions. Courtney McConkie I'm sure told the church where you need to change your tone and back off. But you would still get, you know, 10, 15 years ago, people like Ty Mansfield, people like North Star Evergreen, you know, just more the Mormon Church putting out these videos either you know, because there's only three options as a gay Mormon still to this day. You either marry, marry a woman and marry someone you're not attracted to to be celibate for the rest of your life, or leave the church and get excommunicated and find the love of your life. And so what the church had to do was sort of sell celibacy or mixed orientation marriages to its youth to let them know this is the path for you. And so you get people like Ty Mansfield or Northstar or the Mormons and gays website that would like hand pick these gay or lesbian Mormons who are adults and have them sell celibacy or sell mixed orientation marriages as like, hey, it's not so bad, we're doing it, you can do it too. And you know, of course a lot of them were lying and since then a lot of those marriages or lifestyles have failed. And of course the church is never going to Tell anyone that after those lives end in disastrous consequences. But there's always this new generations and cycles of new spokespeople, whether it's Dave Matheson or Dean Byrd or Ty Mansfield or Josh and Lally Weed or whoever. The church is always going to rinse and repeat, recycle these public role models to say, you can do it, you can go your whole life and never have any sexual intimacy and you'll be fine. It's just like alcoholism or diabetes. It's just your cross in life that you can endure if you hold, you know, close to Jesus. And that's what the Voices of Hope Project was, Ty Mansfield's Voices of Hope book. That's what the Voices of Hope website was about and all these videos. And that's what the Mormon Gaze website was about. Or you can marry a woman and you may be repulsed by her and she may never feel loved and wanted, but it's okay. It's just a mortal, short, brief, mortal experience. And then you'll be fixed in the afterlife and you can be happy then. Which of course leads so many Mormon LGBT people to think maybe I should just speed up the process and die to then get fixed and have a joyous life. So these are the types of videos you where that the church has sold, you know, and continues to sell and market to vulnerable youth like Britain and Mason. I'm sorry to just hijack the conversation, but I. Especially for our non Mormon listeners, I just want to give everyone kind of the background. Did I get that right or wrong?

Britton Laing [01:10:17] That's spot on.

Mason Laing [01:10:19] Mormon messages. There we go.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] Yeah.

Britton Laing [01:10:23] But yeah, definitely spot on. You brought that up and I had that moment of realization like. Like, where do I fit in this plan of salvation? And like.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] And those off those options that the Church put forward for you were.

Britton Laing [01:10:36] It were exactly that I'm like, marry celibacy and Mason, marry a woman. Yeah.

Mason Laing [01:10:41] Which for you, there are four options.

Britton Laing [01:10:42] Well, yeah, which, which I'm like, oh, I could do that. I mean, that's why I'm with Natalie right now. I mean, maybe after I get back from my mission, Natalie Will, we could, like, because it was working and. And like, because, I mean, I didn't know. I never kissed. I never kissed a guy. I didn't know what it was like. I had never like, even imagined, like, I wouldn't even. That's the thing. I wouldn't even let myself imagine, like physical, like. So, like it was interesting going back to my masturbation because, you know, we all want to talk about that, but in what it was interesting what I allowed, the way I, like, morally allowed myself to do it. It was. I wasn't allowed to think about men or I wasn't allowed to think about touching anyone. Anytime they would get close, I'd have, like, a barrier in between me and the person. Like a glass barrier. I'd put up immediately and. Or immediately stop and like. And then go into guilt. So I didn't even know or think about what it'd be like to kiss someone or any of those things. So for me, I'm like, you know what? I never even thought about that. I'm like, I guess I'm already living this life. I mean, just keep on going. Keep on going with Natalie. And so you have the option that or celibacy and then leave the church. And Mason brings up a fourth option, which, like, you mentioned it too, which is suicide. It's like, that's another option which I hadn't considered at the time.

Mason Laing [01:11:50] At the time.

Britton Laing [01:11:50] Well, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] Yeah. Cause so many people think, well, you're gay, so just leave your religion. But it's not that simple because my.

Britton Laing [01:11:57] Yeah, you go.

Mason Laing [01:11:58] Your religion is like all of your thoughts, all of your facts, all your opinion. Everything you think in your mind is even though you think you yourself. It's not. It's like the Matrix, but, like, you're in a church. Like, you're. You're being controlled. Grandparents, your community, everything is centered around this. And it's just. It's so like. Like, you can't leave that. You can't leave your whole life behind.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] And so, yeah, it doesn't wash off your beliefs. Your brain has been carefully. All those years of seminary, of Sunday school, of priesthood, of family home, evening of scripture study. Your brain is wired to be a believing Mormon.

Mason Laing [01:12:39] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:12:39] It's not just like, oh, I'm gay, okay, I don't believe anymore. No, no, no.

Mason Laing [01:12:43] It's funny thing. Recently, what happened was I ate. Now that I'm out of the church, I was. I used to work at Home Goods, and I would clean the bathrooms, and I was. They had this certain spray there and, like, to clean the bathrooms, and I sprayed it. I was like, like, it smells like the church after it's been cleaned on Sunday. And it was so, like, comforting to me. And I was like, wait, Mason, what are you doing? Like, stop. Like, you can't think like that. Like, it was so, like, even now, like, things like that, they. They're so comforting because it brings you back to a time in life. Well, for me at least, where it was. There weren't any problems. There were. You just went to church and you came home, and it was confusing, right? It is.

Britton Laing [01:13:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] So. Yeah.

Britton Laing [01:13:25] Yeah. So. So there. Yeah, that's kind of where I was at with. With Natalie and those four options. Yeah, those options. And I'm like, well, I mean, I. I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna be able to get through it. And. And. And. And also kind of how missions are set up. We're kind of taught that missions fix you, that they can. They can.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] You've been taught that.

Britton Laing [01:13:46] Well, I mean, essentially, that when you go on your mission, you come back more prepared and more spiritually able to deal with life's problems. And so in my brain, kind of how the logic I created, I'm like, well, I'll go on my mission and I'll come back, and I'll be more likely or able to marry a woman or survive the church, essentially. So I got my mission call, and it was funny. I remember it was a crap day. Anywho, I opened my mission call, and I was called to Sao Paulo North. Same mission as my dad.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] Same mission.

Mason Laing [01:14:18] Same exact mission.

Britton Laing [01:14:19] Yeah. And so I remember everyone's like, oh, my gosh. That's so inspired. Oh, my gosh. It must be the spirit. I mean, those brethren, they're so inspired. And then you think about it, you're like, wait, don't they have that pulled up on the screen where my dad went on his mission? Hmm. I don't know. Sorry. Just putting that in there.

John Dehlin [01:14:33] There.

Britton Laing [01:14:34] Anywho. So I get sent there, and.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] And up until your mission call, do you come out to anyone?

Britton Laing [01:14:39] No. No, I had. No, not yourself. I said to myself, yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] So you. But by then, you kind of.

Britton Laing [01:14:43] I knew. I was. I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be okay. And I. I was very gay.

John Dehlin [01:14:47] But I'm gonna fix it.

Britton Laing [01:14:48] Yeah, I'm gonna fix it. Or I just. I'll suppress it, like, more again, back

John Dehlin [01:14:52] to those, like, physical it.

Britton Laing [01:14:53] Yeah, exactly. Because I'm like, I'm strong enough. I mean, like, that's what. That's what they teach you. They're like, if you can't do it, then there's something wrong with you. And so I'm like, well, I'm gonna prove that I am worthy. I'm righteous enough that I can go on a mission and be okay.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Got it.

Britton Laing [01:15:08] Okay. Mission

Mason Laing [01:15:11] not so great.

Serving a Mission While Carrying a Hidden Identity

Britton Laing [01:15:13] Isn't one of the symptoms of PTSD having, like, recurring nightmares and, like, vivid flashbacks? So, unfortunately, I Think I have a little PTSD around this. So it's a little. It's a touchy subject for me, but I'm gonna try to get through it. I got to the MCC and I. So here's the thing, because you remind me of the people some people watching that aren't members of the church. When you're on your mission, they take away all your coping mechanisms. You lose access to your family and friends. You lose access to alone time. You lose access to Netflix. Yeah. All those media about any sort. You lose access to any connection to anyone one to food. You, like, lose access, like safe foods, which were important to me at the time. Like, you're. All those things are stripped away.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] Even your exercise regimens.

Britton Laing [01:16:03] Exactly. And that was another big deal for me. Especially musical instruments. You lose everything. And I mean, now that you're allowed to text and call your family on P Day, that's new. Which is new. But that was not the case for me at the time. Anywho. So I'm in the McCarthy and I went to the Brazilian Sao Paulo MDC and. Oh, yeah. And so it's a culture shock. It's like all of a sudden you're in a place with all these things and you're required to be in certain places at certain times and eat food that was not safe food for me. And so I lost weight. It was like, more, which was very unhealthy. And so I was in a terrible, terrible position. And so that I was like, already, like. But essentially I was coping. I'm like, I was putting as much of the pain away as I could. Just try to get through the day. Cause I'm like, this starts, like, day. What is it, like 365 times 2. I just have to get through it all. Something interesting. Interesting story from the MCC is I had. There's a sister who I adore, and, like, we're still really good friends. And her personality, my personality, we just clicked. And of course, we would chat, we'd laugh, we'd spend time together in the room when we had some free time. And it was like this healing balm for me from the pain that I was going through. And I remember being pulled aside by my instructors, and they're like, Elder Laing. We've had reports of people looking at you, and you two cannot spend time together because it looks like you're going to do sexual things. And I'm like, how embarrassing. I'm like, what the actual. I wanted to scream right in their face like, I'm gay. Don't worry, I'm not going to hit her. And it's just, ugh. And it was so frustrating. And it was frustrating for her too. But she didn't know I was gay. I didn't anyhow. But it was just, it was so, so frustrating because it was like one of my little spots, the lights of joy was ripped away from me. And so what did I do? I clung tighter to the things in the church that brought me joy, which were like hymns. I'm like, okay, I'll sing hymns to myself. I'll play like, I'm like, I need to find spiritual. I'm just gonna be even more spiritual because then that will fix me, that'll make me feel better. Like this pain that I'm in, this depression, this anxiety. And then I got out to my first area and bless. Like call it tender mercy for the people who still believe or whatever it was. But thankfully my apartment was not dad's case. It was a lovely apartment that I was able to have there. But I remember being in this small little area out on the outskirts of Sao Paulo. Like not city, but like kind of like countryside. And it was just, it was bad. It was really bad. It was like pain day after day after day of like trying to like figure out like what's wrong with me being attracted to my companion. Like the pain, like the guilt and shame around that and masturbation on top of it. Oh, oh, wait, back up real quick. Sorry, sorry. This is a little disjointed. I apologize. But first day in the mtc, in my mission field, like we, my mission president, we're all sitting down, the mission president walks in, first thing out of his mouth is, we're gonna watch a video. Turns on a video. It's about sexual sin. Oh, okay, wait, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm a little disjointed. I need to jump back.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] Don't worry about it.

Britton Laing [01:19:16] One more thing.

Mason Laing [01:19:17] You're good.

Britton Laing [01:19:18] I remember interviewing, going in for my interview with the stake president before my mission to have my interview. And apparently my dad didn't get to him because he point blank asked me. It's like we were finishing up the interview and it was great. And he's like, something we need to take care of. Lots of people have it before you go on your missions, like, do you masturbate? And I remember looking at him like wide eyed. I'm like, what do I say? Because I'm like, I do. And I'm like, but here I am, like, I'm broken. I'm Hurting physically and spiritually and all those things. I'm like, I need to go on a mission. And I'm thinking, it's a sin next to murder. If I admit to this, I'm not going on a mission. And all the shame of my family, of how they view me and what's going on there. I'm like, I need. And I lied. And I remember feeling so, so guilty. Like, that just stuck with me.

Mason Laing [01:20:06] You did?

Britton Laing [01:20:06] I did. Of course. Guilty about it. I mean, like, it's bad, but be proud of me.

John Dehlin [01:20:13] Proud of you?

Britton Laing [01:20:13] You lied.

Mason Laing [01:20:14] Continue.

Britton Laing [01:20:15] But no, I'm feeling so, so guilty.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] So how are you gonna get fixed if you don't go on a mission?

Britton Laing [01:20:18] Exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] And then catch 22.

Britton Laing [01:20:21] Yeah, exactly. And so. And then go to the temple. And that's a whole experience.

Mason Laing [01:20:26] It's prayer circle, baby.

Britton Laing [01:20:30] It was scary. Like, going to the temple. It was just. I remember going in there, being told it's gonna be this amazing spiritual experience. I'm thinking, well, I'm going to go in there and like, see God. Or I don't know, like. Like, it's gonna be amazing.

John Dehlin [01:20:42] It's a little something.

Britton Laing [01:20:42] Yeah, exactly. And then you get there and you have Satan breaking the fourth wall, like third wall. Like looking at you in the movie. Go ahead.

Mason Laing [01:20:49] Yeah.

Britton Laing [01:20:49] He's like, if any of you do not live up to these covenants, you make a house and these day you'll be mine. And it's just as you remember. I know. I remember. And feeling scared. Absolutely scared. And there's no consent at all. I'm sorry. Like, that's jumping to kind of why but there's no consent at all. Because you're surrounded by family and friends that are watching you. Like, you like it, right? Like, this is great, isn't it? It's so spiritual. I'm like, no, this is. This is a crap show. Like, what am I in? What am I getting myself into? People are in circles. Anywho, so that was terrible. And so. So I got. Now jump back to my mission, Mission president. First thing he did, video about sexual shame. It finishes and he goes, okay, we gotta take care of that right now. So we're gonna have interviews, personal interviews today. I'm gonna start them right now. Like, pick someone off the front row and let's go get this done. And I remember sitting there, I'm like, I have to confess again. And I didn't. And that guilt carried with me. Cause I mean, I was so scared of confessing that because I had never confessed anything. To the bishop before, because I thought it was evil.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] Anywho, I just have to say one of the most terrible things about Mormonism is what they do when a Mormon missionary enters the mtc. Because, okay, so there's all the Mormons that you know that are honest with their bishops or stake presidents leading up to their mission. And some of them will be not allowed to serve a mission because they're deemed sexually impure or unworthy. And then there's others that have to have their mission service delayed to the shame of their entire congregation, as everyone knows. Well, your mission's been delayed six months. Everyone knows why. Some sort of sexual indiscretion. So then there's the rare kid that doesn't have any sexual exploration at all prior to their mission. And then there's a bunch that lie. And so they lie to their bishop, they lie to the stake president, and then they're allowed to serve their mission. So what the Mormon Church does is it has this pressure cooker as soon as you're in the MTC or the mission field, where the church like turns on those screws and says, and sometimes they'll even use this fake sort of spirit of discernment where they'll have all these missionaries in the room and they'll say, I have the feeling as a servant of the Lord that there are some missionaries here that have committed sins they have not yet repented for. And again, this goes back to the, the stuff that your dad was talking about. If you, you know, this whole thing about like, if you are not worthy, if you have not repented of everything you've ever done, then you will not have the spirit. And then there will be people who will be lost and damned forever because you were not worthy. And they turn on these screws so that then those who have not yet, quote, repented of their sins will be open and honest with their stake presidents or branch presidents or mission presidents or whatever. And that's where it gets really intense because number one, you're on the mission, but number two, you risk getting sent home to the total shame and embarrassment because if you leave and then, you know, a couple weeks later, you have this huge send off your whole family, your whole ward, all your extended family, they send you off on this two year mission and then all of a sudden you're home, everybody knows why. And it's a shame parade that some people don't survive. And so that's when they turn on the screws and the guilt. So I just wanted to paint that picture for kind of what was happening to you. Is that right?

Britton Laing [01:24:10] Yeah, exactly. And I think Natasha says it best when Natasha Helfer kids either have two choices. What happens is either they confess and they enter the cycle of shame and guilt or they lie and then they take that seat and it goes to secrecy and they take that with them throughout their entire lives because like I have to hide, hide this part of me because it's shameful. And so that's, that's where I was at.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] Both are awful.

Britton Laing [01:24:33] Yeah, exactly. They're. They're not good situations. Gotta fix that. So anyhow, in the mcc gets to the mission field art with this guilt and then on top of that, all my coping mechanisms gone.

Mason Laing [01:24:43] It's hot.

Britton Laing [01:24:44] I am not eating well because in this small area there's like.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Just to be clear, you lied to your mission president.

Britton Laing [01:24:49] Oh, I did, yes. Point blank. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:51] I'm like, what did that do to your mental state?

Britton Laing [01:24:54] Well, immediately I'm like, I. Like I am a sinner. Like I, I am like not just I. I am like on top of this, I'm already nothing. But then it's like, well, there, there you go. I just imploded. Like, there's. I'm suddenly I'm sending this bad influence in my mission. I am going to be hurting people and. And I won't have the spirit spirit with me. And then I teach. Exactly. And any. Anything that went wrong was immediately blamed on that. I'm like. Because it's like confirmation bias. I'm like, oh, I'm looking for everything to prove how I'm feeling inside about myself. So that's exactly where I was at. And then I'm there in my first area with I love the bless the sisters that gave us lunch. Unfortunately there was not always lunch every day. And me being scared and also having restrictive tendencies. I wouldn't buy enough food to eat for breakfast or I would never have dinner because dinner just wasn't happen. So like extremely poor diet. Like not enough intense walking. Like I got to the point where like to like mentally like help myself. I'd have to walk. Like, I'm like elder, we need to go and just like go. I would like pick the furthest areas. Like this is where we need to go. Like, because I need to move. Like. And I think that's like a symptom of something. I'm not sure. But disordered eating behavior.

John Dehlin [01:26:08] And that's purging. There's purging through throwing up food and physical, but there's purging through over exercise. They're both bulimic kind of behaviors.

Britton Laing [01:26:17] And so I would. I do that. And then I remember that was the first time in my life I ever considered suicide. It was like. And it was scary. Like, I, like immediate. Just fear. I'm like, I've never been that bad before. Like, what do I do? And like, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. And it happened that one day and it just. It kept getting worse and it happened. So. And. But then I went to. It happened once in the area, and then it happened one more time in the area, and then I was transferred.

John Dehlin [01:26:50] Where you had heavy suicidal ideation?

Britton Laing [01:26:52] Yeah, yeah, and. And, yeah, exactly. And it. And then that's. Once I was. And towards the end of that. That area, it started increasing in frequency. So from like one time to. And then like a month or two in between, it became like one month to like a week to a week in between each ideation to every night. Like, I would. To. Not to be graphic, but just. Just to show you what. What happens when you're put in this situation. Like, I would imagine myself because my body was evil. I wanted it gone. I would imagine myself falling on top of the church spire and, like, it impaling me. And like, very vivid, like, blood gore, all of that, because that. That's what I deserved. And I. And that's. And it's. It's interesting because that's what makes you feel okay because you're like, I deserve this. And imagining it happening, it's like, oh, it's a relief because it's finally like, yes, it's happening. It's confirming what I need to. To relieve this pain to get out of it. And so that. Worse. And then I transferred and thankfully I had an amazing companion who just like, I love him to pieces. I'm not going to name names who he is, but come to find out later, he's bisexual. So it was probably why we got along so well. He's attractive too. Well, that led to a lot of guilt and everything, but he was there. Talks a lot with me about things. I didn't talk about being gay with him, but we talked about all sorts of things in the church and kind of. We talked about masturbation, like, both of us. And he had a similar perspective to how I had it. Like, oh, it's fine in certain contexts. And that was really cool to be able to have that kind of relief. But then I transferred and losing him, I was put in charge of a district. Like, I was district leader also. Like, it was opening an Area which apparently is like, it explains like. Yeah, it's a big deal. I was put in charge of teaching an English class and like all these things at once and training at the same time. And so it was training a young new mission from Argentina, which is also an honor. Yeah, yeah. Which who doesn't speak any. Didn't speak any English. And so it was, it was all these crap things at once. And I'm glossing over a lot of the terrible things because at this point suicidal ideations were increasing.

Mental Health Crisis and Suicidal Ideation on Mission

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Had self harm started?

Britton Laing [01:29:08] Yes, self harm started even before my mission to relieve certain things.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] But trigger warning, I guess. I'm sorry viewers and listeners, but we just did an episode on that. So if you want to talk about that a bit.

Britton Laing [01:29:20] Yeah. So I mean for me the biggest thing is like scratching and cutting. That, that was very helpful because it's be able to relieve pressure or pain that's going on. But that started there and our high rise was on. Our apartment was on a very high part of the building and there were ideations with that. And so essentially those things, those ideations, all that going on was a way to just to relieve like the pain I was in. And it's interesting, the thing that would always keep me here was not wanting to save myself. But oh, I don't want to put someone else through that struggle, that position to like, oh, my family will be sad. I don't want to make them feel bad that way or this poor bus driver. I don't want them to have that trauma or this whoever has to XYZ situation and pick me up or have to find my body. And so that's the thing. I'm like, eventually I'm like, no, I can't do that to my companion. I can't do that. And that's what kept me here. But it got too much. It was.

Guest 3 [01:30:41] Thanks.

Britton Laing [01:31:03] Sorry. I got to a point where I, I was gonna do it. I had plans and I, As a last ditch effort, I called the mission president to tell him like, you know, we were already going to have interviews and I'm like, okay, I'll tell him how I'm feeling because. And I put an ultimatum, like if this interview doesn't go well, if I don't feel any different afterwards, I'm done. And I went and bless him. I don't hold him accountable for this or blame him. It's definitely a system of how the church does it. But I told him, I confessed him about masturbation, all those things. Finally got it off and felt no Different. None of the guilt was gone, none of the self hatred was gone. And then I told him, like, like mission president. I won't say his name. It's like, I, I'm not well. I need help. I, like, I am, I'm having suicidal ideations and like, I'm going to kill myself. And his response was, well, there are lots of elders who have mental problems and we could get you on medication in the coming weeks. Like, we'll, we'll see about it. And it's like, I'll have you meet with my wife sometime and you can talk with her about it. And it was just very. It didn't matter. It didn't matter where I was at. And I don't think he realized where I was at. And I don't blame him. But I guess the reason I share that is these people that are put in charge of you, like bishops and mission presidents, they're not trained psychologists, they're not trained therapists. They don't know the signs. They don't know the severity of that situation.

John Dehlin [01:32:53] Also, it's looked down on many of them to send a missionary home so that they think of it as their job to keep you on a mission, whether that is necessarily safe for you or not. It looks bad on them to have a bunch of missionaries going home.

Britton Laing [01:33:07] Exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:33:08] So they're incentivized against your well being.

Britton Laing [01:33:10] Yeah, exactly. And I remember leaving the office and I was so close.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] Sorry.

Britton Laing [01:33:34] Thankfully, his wife had the wherewithal after he went and talked with her. I'd love to have heard that conversation because I think she was pretty angry. She called me immediately.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] She was angry. You think? Why?

Britton Laing [01:33:44] With the fact, with him. For the fact that he brushed me off and didn't keep me at the office and let me try going home. She called me and it's like, hey, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get you in tomorrow. Like, I need, I need you to come back. And like, okay. And so I'm like, I can hold. And she's like, can you hold on till tomorrow? And no, actually, no, she didn't call me. I, I went home. Yeah, no, I went, I went home and I, I stayed alive in that moment. It was in the bed because I had the hope of, okay, I'm gonna talk to her tomorrow. We had scheduled to talk with her the next day. I'm like, at least that's my last straw. And then I'm done. And I went and talked with her and bless that woman, because she immediately. She broke down in Tears and treated the situation with the severity of what it was. And she's like, she wanted me to stay there that night, but was able to help me get home and safe and had me call every so often to make sure I was okay and with a promise of getting me in to see the. Like, since we're in. I was in Sao Paulo north, which is like, right by the church headquarters, like, Kashangi, which is where the temple is. She's like, I'm going to the temple tomorrow with the leaving missionaries. At the same time, I was transfer, and I want you to come with us and we'll take you to the psychologist for all the area. So I got there and talked with him, and I couldn't get, like, I wanted to go home. Like, I. That was in my head and like, that I need to go home. But I couldn't bring myself to say it to the psychologist. Thankfully, he was able to, like, realize that's what I wanted. He's like, is that like, eventually after some talking, he's like, do you want to go home? Like, yes, yes, I do. And he suggested that and went and told my mission president, like, he take the blow. I suggest that he goes home. It wasn't his choice. And my mission president's like, well, let me ask him. Like, we're gonna go into the temple. I want you to pray about whether or not you should go home. I'm like, okay, so we go into the temple. Of course, I feel nothing. I'm like, I'm going home. That's what I'm gonna do. And I went home. Was on a flight the next Monday, and it was.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] Did you get a sense he didn't want you to go home?

Britton Laing [01:35:59] Yeah, yeah, I did. And I Like, even when he did, like, an interview before you leave, like, on the day of. To the flight and he did an interview with me, he's like. He's like, you can still change your mind, essentially, and, like, you can always come back, like, very much so not wanting me to go. And I don't blame him for that, but it was. That was just another thing. I'm like, I can't deal with that right now. Like, please. Like you. He didn't realize that my worth is, like, dependent on what he's saying. And, like, I can't. I can't do that. And so I did get home, and thankfully, yeah, so sorry. Now I'm back home in Maryland. And so here's the most amazing blessing, tender, mercy, whatever you call what real

Mason Laing [01:36:43] quick, we were in Maryland because that's.

Britton Laing [01:36:45] Yeah.

Mason Laing [01:36:46] I'd be his dad. Employment.

Britton Laing [01:36:48] Yeah. And that's. That's what I'm about to say.

Guest 3 [01:36:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:50] Sorry, can I ask one question? Okay. So thank you for sharing something. So.

Mason Laing [01:36:55] No, no.

Britton Laing [01:36:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:56] That's really an important and a powerful excerpt. I just wanted to ask you, Britain and Mason, if you want to jump in on this, I want to just have you look at the camera and address one specific sort of claim, apologetic claim, that's always made because, you know, the LGBT Mormon problem has been around for decades and decades and decades because LGBT has been 60s and 70s, you know, the electric shock therapy and all the conversion repair to therapy. But then it really accelerated in my experience with Prop 8, because as soon as it was public knowledge that the Mormon Church was sort of. It was hunting season on same sex married people and Mormons and the church really started ramping up its anti LGBTQ rhetoric with Boyd K. Packer and the whole, why would a loving heavenly father do this and dial any jokes and all that. Like, we just. Those of us here in Utah just started seeing the LGBTQ youth Mormon suicides just rise exponentially. And in fact, they did rise exponentially, even though Utah does all it can to not keep statistics of LGBTQ Mormon youth suicide because they don't want to have to report on it Anyway, as we started making a stink with this. And then there was Benji Schwimmer and Tyler Glenn and, you know, the research that I did. And then Encircle and then Dan Reynolds and Imagine Dragons and Encircle and the movie Believer, as we started making a huge stink about this epidemic of LGBTQ Mormon suicide, then there was kind of this apologetic reaction which is like, oh, no, it's not the Mormon Church. It's the altitude or it's the region. It's the Rocky Mountain region. It's everywhere. It's a national thing. Like Mormon apologists have worked overtime to say that there's no connection. It's unfair to tie LGBTQ Mormon youth suicide to the behaviors and the actions of the Mormon Church, that those who do that are just taking a tragic thing and trying to pin it on the church with some agenda to kind of weaponize a tragic situation, to then blame the church. If you. Britton, and then, Mason, if you want to tag on, if you wanted to look into the camera and talk to the type, the people who try and justify and excuse the LGBTQ Mormon youth suicide as something other than a natural reaction to the Mormon Church's doctrines and policies and actions to LGBTQ Mormon youth. What?

Mason Laing [01:39:43] What?

John Dehlin [01:39:43] What? If you had a chance to say something, what would you say?

Mason Laing [01:39:51] Fake ass bitches like, bruh,

John Dehlin [01:39:56] was it the altitude?

Britton Laing [01:39:58] No.

Mason Laing [01:40:01] No.

Britton Laing [01:40:05] Sorry. It just. It makes me so sad and angry because I didn't choose this. And my whole life I've been told I'm broken. I'm not broken. I'm not waiting for some resurrection to fix me.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] What took you to that point? What was it? If you had to summarize it to

Britton Laing [01:40:38] that point, I'm sorry, but what was

John Dehlin [01:40:42] it about your Mormon upbringing that led you to the point of not wanting to live anymore? Summarize it, if you don't mind.

Britton Laing [01:40:51] The fact that, Sorry, I'm just right, that I'm not enough, that me, myself just being me and who I am, that I'm. I'm worthless. And the fact that I'm not living up to standards that have been set out by a third party and I'm not meeting these high demands, that's what led me to it. It's like. It's not. Why. And especially the fact, this idea that, well, if this life is just a blip, why not go to the next life? Why not get this over with? Because if this is just meant to be a trial and it's worthless and I'm supposed to be fixed in the next life, I better just die right now. Why not die? Because I'm not doing anything for this world. I'm useless, according to the church.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] Mason, your story's coming. But do you want to add anything to this?

Mason Laing [01:41:54] It's just so frustrating. Like, part of my language earlier, but, like, it's, like, so invalidating. It's like, obviously, everyone can have their own opinions about everything and every. Like. But, like, these apologists, they've never been in our shoes. They don't know what it's like. And so it's just. It's. It's so, like, angering, too. Like, just see these people go. And, like, it's the altitude, honey. Don't worry. Like, I don't know. It's just so horrible,

Britton Laing [01:42:33] because statements like that, what it says, it just. It goes back to that pushing on. It's like, oh, we're not at fault. You must be broken. You must have a problem with you. It pushes, like, it's not a church's fault. These youth, these LGBTQ youth, they must be screwed up because they're the ones killing themselves. It's not. We have no part. And that's,

Mason Laing [01:42:59] like, take ownership for something at least. It's like, pushing, like, the Things that are happening now are on other people, not us. Like what? It's just like they're so oblivious. I don't know. And I was like that, too. And I'm not. I'm sorry. I'm not judging people for being oblivious. But like, Teen Shade, like, Bruh, it's

Britton Laing [01:43:25] like, I deserve better.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] And then. And then there's a different version of this by like a. Again, like a Ty Mansfield or others that's like, hey, LGBTQ Mormons, just cling to Christ, have faith. You can make it through this. You know, some people are alcoholics and some people are diabetics, and this is your cross to bear. But have faith in God, have faith in Jesus, trust in the church, and Jesus, and the church will see you through. And whether it's celibacy or mixed faith marriage, you can do this. What would you say to that?

Britton Laing [01:44:02] My biggest frustration, and one of the reasons why I feel so free to left the church, is that they teach. They teach you to give up yourself and that you are nothing and that you're dependent upon a third party, which is Christ. And that idea that you are broken only if you hold on tighter that you'll be okay. I deserve better. I deserve better in this life, Especially when it's coming from a straight man who's had two wives at the top of some church telling me that I shouldn't. I can't marry a man that's fucked up. I'm sorry. And I'm not. That's. I'm. I'm not going to be part of an organization that does that.

John Dehlin [01:44:41] And why won't Christ? Why. Why can't he help you through?

Britton Laing [01:44:46] Well, I'll let you know. I tried. I sure, sure as hell did.

John Dehlin [01:44:49] Did you cling to Christ?

Britton Laing [01:44:50] I. Oh, yeah. I mean, I clung to everything, every bit of church that I could possibly. And look where it got me. I almost killed myself. I almost left this earth. And I'm sure there's people out there who thought that might be better. And to them, I say, screw you, because it's my life and I deserve better. But it doesn't. When you start looking for that person. Like, faith is one thing to be able to find peace in that, but to go and change who I am. No, I'm sorry. No. That is. That is a part of me that. It's like asking someone if that was born without a leg to grow a leg and telling them they're evil and terrible and wrong for not having a

John Dehlin [01:45:29] leg or have faith to regrow a leg.

Britton Laing [01:45:30] Exactly. Literally, God will fix you if you have enough faith. And then it goes back to putting the blame on the person because they must be broken because it's not working for them. And that's how I felt. I'm like, I'm screwing this up. God must not love me. I didn't love myself. I hated myself. And I thought God hated me too, because things aren't working out the way they're supposed to. So.

Guest 3 [01:45:51] Yeah, it's really unfair. Really sorry you guys had to go through that.

Britton Laing [01:45:55] Thanks. We're on the recovery.

Guest 3 [01:45:57] I mean, I feel like spiritual experience are pretty ubiquitous. Right. Throughout humankind and development. Right. And religions have either tried to co opt it for better or for worse. And I would hope that the religion that we are so passionate about, that we have come from, can recognize that people who don't fit within the box of one specific sexual orientation or gender identity, that they have spiritual experiences too and they want to understand why they're here and their creator. We all do. We want to, we want to do best by our families and, and be true to ourselves. And I just. It's my prayer that's Mormon language. But it's, it's my hope that like, people who have co opted these different ideas about why we're here and where we're going can see that you too are just trying, like everyone else, to live up to your best identity and your best ideals and being authentic to that. And that there's absolutely no box that like a council of men in Salt Lake City who have never been through the things that you've been through should be putting you inside that box. You guys are too fabulous for it, to be honest. So that's really hard for that. Each of you have had to heads in your own way these different experiences. So thank you. My heart goes out to you.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] And I was struck reading your outline. It seemed like God was kind of telling you you were okay.

Britton Laing [01:47:19] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:20] So you were having to deal with the dissonance of like, if you were actually going to be listening to God and your own spiritual witness, you were actually okay. It was, it was trying to navigate the difference between that and the messages

Britton Laing [01:47:31] the church was giving you.

John Dehlin [01:47:32] And our LGBTQ research of serving over 1,612 LGBTQ Mormons, over half of them received spiritual witnesses from their creator that they were just fine. It was the church that was the problem for in those cases, not God. Right.

Britton Laing [01:47:49] And that's really interesting because like, I got. So to kind of summarize it, I got back from My mission. And I'm gonna skip coming out real quick just to get to that. To that point, I. I went to the temple and got here. To Logan. Well, not here, but up in Logan.

John Dehlin [01:48:03] After you came home.

Britton Laing [01:48:04] After I came home, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] Cause you're still trying.

Britton Laing [01:48:06] No, I'm still trying, yeah. Ex. And I remember, actually, it was before that I was in Maryland praying, and I remember feeling. Being told by the Spirit that it's okay that I'm gay and that I can marry a man.

John Dehlin [01:48:18] What?

Britton Laing [01:48:18] Yeah. The spirit told you that? Yeah. And it was confirmed again in the temple, like, multiple times. And so I'm like, what is this? Like, this is what I have. And so at that point in my spiritual journey, I was. I'm like, well, I'm going to make the church work. And then I got to the point where I'm like, well, I'll marry a man, and I'll just be a thorn in the church's side until they change things. Because I'm thinking black is in the priesthood. Like, it'll happen again with lgbtq, at least where I was at at the time. But that's ahead. And then that's exactly where it kind of meshes back with Dad's and my mom's story of leaving the church and all that jazz. But real quick, I just wanted to touch on coming out before we switched to Mason, if that's okay.

Coming Out to Family and Parental Responses

John Dehlin [01:48:56] Yeah.

Britton Laing [01:48:57] So I got back, and it's not like getting home. I mean, it was nice because I finally had my coping mechanic getting my family there, but I didn't. I. Depression didn't go away.

John Dehlin [01:49:09] I mean, you're also a disappointment.

Britton Laing [01:49:11] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, and the beautiful thing. That's what I was trying to say is they moved during my mission. I was there for a year, and so I didn't come back. I came back to ward, who didn't know diddly squat about me.

John Dehlin [01:49:22] And so you didn't have the shame printed in your heart.

Britton Laing [01:49:24] None of it. And that was. That was really helpful so that I. Cause, I mean, if that had been there, I. And would hate to think what would happen because I was still suicidal. And so I went. So I. We went and saw a psychiatrist, not a church went a medical one, because they know I was gay yet. And she prescribed something. I was able to take some medication, which helped take the edge off, and which is amazing. And that's why I think medication has its place, because it helps you. For me, it helped me get to a place where I could, like, whoa, okay, let's Pick through this. Now let's dissect. Because I hit rock bottom, and, like, once you hit rock bottom, you're like, we gotta rebuild here. And so I decided, like, I mean, I need to come out to my parents as gay. Like, I need to tell him. And that was. That was bro.

Mason Laing [01:50:09] How'd you do that, though?

Britton Laing [01:50:10] It was an experience. Like, I. And. And I. I will mention, like, coming out is not something everyone needs to do. Like, I just want any LGBTQ person watching this. Sometimes you're not. It's not safe to come out. Like, sometimes you have to wait until you're in a. A place or a family or out of a home where you can actually do that and be able to, like, physically take care of yourself. So don't feel like you have to do that. But for me, I decided to. And I told. I remember I, like, brought them upstairs to the loft in our house, and I just sat on the couch crying for, like, a solid 20 minutes. It was a long time. And they're looking at me like, did he kill someone? Like, what happened here? It's like, it's something terrible. And eventually, I. I just like, mom, dad, I like men. Like, I'm gay. And it was. It was amazing. Like, of course, my parents were awesome. Were amazing. Immediate, immediate outpouring of love. And.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Well, it's not, of course, because they're also raised orthodox.

Britton Laing [01:51:05] That's true.

John Dehlin [01:51:06] So they. Lots of Mormon parents don't get that.

Britton Laing [01:51:08] You don't get that always. Yeah. And so I was very blessed. Lucky. Call it what you will have Parents who accept. Immediately accepted me and outpoured their love, and I'm sure. And I'll let them tell their side because they. It's very interesting, but I'm sure that's a shock to you because you're like, well, crap. Like, everything I've learned about the church, now I have a gay son. You're like, what do I do with this? Anyhow, what did they say to you? We love you. It was like, my mom, like, it's like, we just love you. It's like. It was just like, I love you again and again. It's like, it doesn't matter. Like, it was. It was immediately, like, affirming. Like, I. Like, a lot of frustration, anxiety, and depression, actually, like, not, like, went away, but, like, it relieved a bit because a lot of that anxiety was around telling them, and I had people who loved me, even though I didn't love myself yet. So that. That happened. That was amazing.

John Dehlin [01:51:59] And your dad, too.

Britton Laing [01:52:00] Yeah. Oh, yeah, my dad. It was. Yeah. Very, very much so. I don't want to.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] So this military dad.

Britton Laing [01:52:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:08] Macho.

Britton Laing [01:52:10] I don't want to spoil his story, that side of the story.

John Dehlin [01:52:13] But from your perspective.

Britton Laing [01:52:14] From my perspective, it's funny because, like, he was immediately like, my son's not broken. Like, and if he's not broken, what is broken that's causing this? And so that was really powerful to me because I immediately felt loved. Absolutely loved and cherished. And just as a funny side note, I came out to each of my sisters.

John Dehlin [01:52:37] What was that like for you? Oh.

Britton Laing [01:52:39] Oh, yeah. It was, I guess, like, it wasn't that big event because. And the reason why, like, it was finally a relief to tell them something new. But it was awkward because now. Cause here's the thing. Like, when you tell someone that, unfortunately, because how we're raised, we have these preconceptions. And so I just want. I think I repeated this multiple times when I came out. Like, I'm the same Britain. Like, I'm the same person. Like, I haven't changed. Like, I've always been this way. And you don't want people to treat you differently. And so. So it's awkward to kind of navigate, what do we joke about? What can we talk about? And then you're like, crap. I've made jokes about. They're homophobic jokes before. What do I say? And then the guilt that comes with that. And it was interesting as a family because I told them, and then I told Quincy, and Quincy was great about it. Quincy's very much like, yeah, whatever.

Mason Laing [01:53:25] Cool.

Britton Laing [01:53:26] I was like, cool. And then Ashley is like. Ashley was very sweet. She was like, that's amazing. That makes me so happy. Happy that I can actually find someone that would love me and I can love them. And then Mason was my favorite person to tell because we were playing Mario Kart, right? And I'm sitting there, I'm like, okay, Mason, gotta tell you something.

Mason Laing [01:53:46] He pauses the game and.

Britton Laing [01:53:51] Okay, his reaction.

John Dehlin [01:53:53] Playing Mario Kart.

Britton Laing [01:53:54] Yeah. And so I'm like, mason, like, I'm gay.

Mason Laing [01:53:57] He's like, I'm attracted to men. I'm gay, Mason. And I'm like, like, cool.

Britton Laing [01:54:04] You're like, can we just play like that?

Mason Laing [01:54:07] That was your response.

Britton Laing [01:54:09] I'm like, I love my. Okay, well, now. Now I realize, like, I'm sure I'll let you tell your side of it, but I'm sure it was not fun. Like, when you already have older siblings and you're like, crap. Like, another brother is doing something, and it's me. So anywho. But that was, that was really funny telling these. And then my last thing, I'll show you.

John Dehlin [01:54:25] What did you feel from his response?

Britton Laing [01:54:27] Oh, from Mason? Yeah, I just thought it was funny because.

Mason Laing [01:54:30] Really?

Britton Laing [01:54:31] Yeah. No, no, no. Mason and I's relationship. I realize Mason's actually in my healing journey from the church. He's helped me a lot because I, I feel like, at least for me, my emotions in the past have been very dependent on what other people think of me. And Mason, he don't give two, two craps what he, like, he'll say whatever, just say, yeah, exactly. Two shits. Exactly. He'll do. He'll say things, he'll do things. And he'll be angry at you, mad at you. And he taught me how to like, oh, well, he's mad at me right now, but in two hours when he's had food and some sleep, he might be fine. So I'm like to be able to not internalize what someone else thinks of me. And so I've always been very grateful to Mason for teaching me that and helping me with that.

Mason Laing [01:55:12] He's like the perfect.

Britton Laing [01:55:14] Poking at me. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's how it goes. But last thing I'll share before I'll let Mason take the wheel.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] We.

Britton Laing [01:55:22] After I told my parents, they're like, oh, let's. Let's go to LDS Family Services. They have therapists we could go to. And so we found one. Oh my hell. It was. So we drove out there, it's like a 40 minute trip. And this dude, bless him, but he was like, very matter of fact, I told him, he's like, okay, okay, you're gay. Okay, let's talk about it. And he's like, okay. And he talks with me afterwards. And I told him about all the suicidal ideations, all those. And he's like. And he brings my mom back in. He's like, so here are your options. The way you can look at it is either you're broken and that you're gonna be fixed in the next life, or you can look at it as some people do, that the church will change. Like very much so. It was just. I left feeling like that was useless, like that was no help at all.

John Dehlin [01:56:05] Why was it useless?

Britton Laing [01:56:06] Well, because I feel like to me, like I maybe put wrong expectations of like, I'm gonna go here and he's going to give me options because he's a church therapist, so he knows like mental health and the gospel so he'll know how to reconcile this. He'll give me the answer for that. And first of all, I recognize now therapists, that's not their job. They're there to help you find the answers, but it was just very much so. Him pontificating. I could see that he was uncomfortable with the question, but he didn't know how to really deal with it. He's trying to pull things out of his ass to throw at me, to help me out. He's like, I could. We can do telehealth or something to keep seeing each other. I remember thinking, I'm never going back to that guy. It was just, screw you. It was pitiful, and it made me. It was like another drop in the bucket to see how the church handles that. Like, they're not equipped. They don't know even. Not all therapists that are in the church, because bless Natasha. We love you, Natasha. Well, not anymore, unfortunately. Bless her. But we love her. Not. We don't love her, but lots of them, unfortunately, don't have those tools. And the church doesn't prepare them for that. And that's unfortunate.

John Dehlin [01:57:12] Yeah. And the church's council runs counter to the entire mental health profession.

Britton Laing [01:57:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:57:18] And standards and ethics. Because it's not a mental illness to be gay. It's nothing to fix. It doesn't go away, can't be fixed. And it's a healthy, relatively normative part of the human experience. And so there's nothing that a ethical competence Mormon therapists can do. So they have to just give you nonsense mumbo jumbo, literally. Because if they're ethical, then they're violating their allegiance to the church. But. But if they support the church, then they're being unethical, so there's nothing they could do.

Britton Laing [01:57:57] It's this terrible trap that burns people.

Mason Laing [01:58:00] So.

John Dehlin [01:58:01] Yeah.

Britton Laing [01:58:01] But. Yeah, that's. And then that's kind of. And then jumping back, I got to a better place, mentally, physically, because I had small revelations along the way of I can date guys I was first dating, and then, like, I could actually marry one, like, and all those things. And then I got. I was kind of there when we jumped back into mom and Dad's story. So that's where I'm at. I'll stop there and I'll let Mason tell his story, if that's okay.

Mason's Coming Out Journey and Faith Crisis

Mason Laing [01:58:25] Where do I start? We can back up now when I was born. It's a great birth, great birthday. Sure. Let's see.

Guest 3 [01:58:33] We were kind of just talking about way back when, so before his mission and the. If you had any ideas that you were different from other boys and then leading into your teen years, adolescence.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:58:45] Yeah. And maybe just the development of your ideas about. Around your sexuality and your relationship with the church.

Mason Laing [01:58:51] Okay, sweet. So let's say. Here, let me pull up my notes.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] Yeah.

Mason Laing [01:58:56] This doesn't make up. Okay, so like, around, like, seventh grade, like, very end of seventh grade. Like, we're moving to. Moving to Maryland. Britney. But anyways, we moved to Maryland. I was thinking, like, am I gay? But I was like, no. Like, I. I couldn't. Like, this is. It's so. Like, I couldn't be gay because it was a choice in my mind. I was like, oh, this is. This is. Is impossible. And so what happens is, like, this isn't a thing. And so we're going and I start school in Maryland when we get there. And it's horrible. Like, just. It's so. I can't even. Like, the schooling system in Maryland. Not even the people there are just.

Britton Laing [01:59:45] The county we're in.

Mason Laing [01:59:46] Yeah, the county we're in. Everything was just bad. And I was bullied and I was

Britton Laing [01:59:51] like, like, it's the South.

Mason Laing [01:59:52] Yeah. And I was, like, physically, like, abused at school and like, like, verbally abused at school. And it was just not a healthy environment.

Guest 3 [02:00:01] Is that specifically because of, like, they could tell you had, like, maybe different

John Dehlin [02:00:05] sexuality, looking back, gender identity sort of manifestations.

Mason Laing [02:00:09] Yeah. So, like, looking back on it now, I was like, could it be up? I don't, like, want to blame it on homophobia. But at the same time, like, was it though? You know, but because you seem like

Guest 3 [02:00:17] you've always kind of been this way. Very out.

Mason Laing [02:00:19] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:00:19] And maybe like, friends with a lot of girls into theater. I'm just projecting, I'm guessing stereotypically. And the macho boys at school are not a fan of that.

Mason Laing [02:00:27] Not a fan of that. And it was the macho boys at school who were like, we're gonna beat this kid up. Right. You know, and so it was just. It was just a toxic environment. And so finally, like, I came to my parents one day. I was like, guys, like, I can't go to that. Like, it's so bad there. And. Oh. So, yeah, I just say it's so bad there. Sorry. Explaining everything now. I'm like, this is a lame story.

Britton Laing [02:00:50] No, your story has just as much value.

Mason Laing [02:00:52] But anyways, I'm like, I tell my parents. I'm like, I can't say this. Like, well, I like, no, I don't say that. I say it's so bad at school. I tell Them everything that's happening. And they're like, mason, do you wanna. Do you wanna go to homeschooling? And I was like, yeah, I do. Cause you weren't safe. No, I wasn't safe at school, and it wasn't good. And I obviously had some, like, friends there, but it was nothing like, like. And I was com. All the time. I was comparing everything to living in Washington. I was comparing, like, all my friends, my house, my, like, social life. Everything I was comparing to Washington.

Britton Laing [02:01:24] Because you.

Mason Laing [02:01:25] You.

Britton Laing [02:01:25] Most of your.

Mason Laing [02:01:26] You.

Britton Laing [02:01:26] You started first grade in Washington.

Mason Laing [02:01:28] I started first grade in Washington.

Britton Laing [02:01:30] Six.

Mason Laing [02:01:30] Yeah. Seventh grade.

Britton Laing [02:01:31] Seventh grade.

Mason Laing [02:01:32] All seventh grade.

John Dehlin [02:01:32] And super good wards and stakes. From what I've seen, the Bremerton area has had some great wards and stakes over the years.

Guest 3 [02:01:40] Right?

Britton Laing [02:01:40] They really do.

Mason Laing [02:01:41] And this is another part of it. The church in Maryland, it was such crap. Like, it was. First of all, the building. That shit was like.

Britton Laing [02:01:54] Annapolis.

Mason Laing [02:01:55] Yeah, Annapolis. It was so, so weird. But anyways, people there were just horrible. And there was especially this one family that we had to deal with that was just not great. Not just because they were, like, controlling everything. And it was just a. Kind of a toxic environment there. And especially with the boys there. It was a very, like. Like, bro, bro kind of attitude. And I. I didn't fit into that. I wasn't a part of that. And so I'd hang out with young woman. I'd be like, why can't I, like, just hang with a young woman?

Britton Laing [02:02:22] Exactly.

Mason Laing [02:02:22] I'd literally tell my mom that. Mom's like, I don't know. I wish you could not the church for that. Yeah, let's see. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] No, you can keep your notes.

Mason Laing [02:02:36] So, yeah, so I lived in. I did homeschool for about, like, over half a year. That wasn't good for my mental health at all. Because while I was thinking, like, I'm not gay, but I kind of am. But at the same time, I was, like, doing homeschool. And I have no social interaction. I have no time.

John Dehlin [02:02:53] Social.

Mason Laing [02:02:53] Yeah. I have no time except going to church and everything. And it was just bad in general.

Britton Laing [02:03:00] You lost all your social, like, coping everything.

Mason Laing [02:03:03] Because I'm like. I'm very, like. I like seeing people. I love seeing people. And so I like talking to people. And that's where I come. I get my. Well, I used to get my energy from and everything. And so not having that was just. It was bad. But that summer I went to this. It was like a musical theater camp, basically, at byu. It was called Young Ambassadors Singing Entertainers Camp Yossi for short. And it was the best thing ever. Like, I loved was a BYU provo.

John Dehlin [02:03:35] Yeah.

Mason Laing [02:03:35] And so for theater. Yeah. And I. I would go and I learned a bunch of dances and songs, and we'd sing songs, and, like, we have, like, this huge performance at the end of the week. And it was so nice because while I was there, I was like. I felt like. I felt like I had, like, some place I had, like. Because I wasn't finding it at church, where. Where everyone was finding, like, everyone's like, oh, I have my church friends. Like, I don't have church friends.

Guest 3 [02:03:58] Guys.

Britton Laing [02:03:58] Signed friends.

Mason Laing [02:03:59] Yeah, exactly. And so it was just kind of. And so I was there, and also, I saw, like, tons of, like, gay, like, people. My. Lots of mine. What do you call them? Counselors. They were. They were gay. And so I saw this. I was like, oh. Like. And there I kind of realized, like, it wasn't, like, a choice. And so I was like. And then later in November of that year is when brain came out to me. And from my side of the story, this is what happens, is Britain's like, mason, I'm not attracted to guys. I'm gay. And in my head, I'm like, are

Britton Laing [02:04:36] you attracted to guys? Yeah.

Mason Laing [02:04:37] Wait, no, I'm not attracted to women. I'm attracted to.

Britton Laing [02:04:39] Definitely attracted to guys.

Mason Laing [02:04:41] And in my head, I'm like, well, shit. Like, this is like, in that moment, I realized it's like, it's a possibility. It's like, you know, it's.

Britton Laing [02:04:53] It's okay.

Mason Laing [02:04:54] It's. Well, not okay, but, like, it's not a choice. And so I was like, oh, well, maybe I am gay. And so I keep going, like, I'm in. In. Oh, my gosh. And, like, for the next month, like, I didn't know how to, like, act around Britain because, like, obviously he was the same. But it was like, but am I the same, too? Like. And so it went on for. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, for the next month. And then we kept. We were still in Maryland, and church was just bad. And it was. It was just like, a shit show there. I hate Maryland with a passion. To be honest. The only good part of it was nothing. Just kidding. There was this place called Rita's, actually. Really good

John Dehlin [02:05:45] restaurant.

Mason Laing [02:05:46] It was Italian night. Really good. Anyways, so, I mean, there was. Wasn't great. And in, like, in 2019.

John Dehlin [02:05:56] This is two years ago, by the way.

Mason Laing [02:05:58] Oh. Oh, my gosh. But in 2019, it was around.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] So your time at BYU, did you say that?

Mason Laing [02:06:10] Oh, yeah, I totally skipped over that. I saw like, a bunch of, like, other gay people.

John Dehlin [02:06:16] I was like, oh, like gay Mormon men?

Mason Laing [02:06:18] Men?

John Dehlin [02:06:19] Probably returned missionaries.

Mason Laing [02:06:20] Yeah, well, actually, no, the ones at the time that I knew because now one of them came out on Instagram and like, like. And he was a returned missionary. And so. But that's when I was out of the church. But at the time, the. They weren't returned missionaries or anything. They, like. And they were living their best lives. And so I was seeing. I was like, everything, like, everything is okay for them. Like, and one of my fellow, like, what do you call it? Camp people. I don't know, like, people who went to camp with me. He was gay and he was like, totally happy. And so I was like, oh, that's it. Like, it was just like a total, like, switch up for me.

John Dehlin [02:06:59] Because meeting gay Mormon men.

Mason Laing [02:07:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:07:02] What?

Mason Laing [02:07:02] Wait, wait, sorry, what?

John Dehlin [02:07:03] You're meeting gay Mormon men?

Mason Laing [02:07:05] And I'm thinking, like, it's. I don't know. I don't even know what I was thinking because it was just.

John Dehlin [02:07:12] At least they exist. Seem to be thriving, maybe.

Mason Laing [02:07:16] Exactly. And so where was I?

John Dehlin [02:07:20] Thank you. BYU.

Mason Laing [02:07:20] Yeah. Thank you, BYU.

Britton Laing [02:07:22] You did it.

Mason Laing [02:07:25] And so 2019, it was December 25th, it was Christmas, and it was like two in the morning and I'm like. And I'm like, I'm up in my sister's bedroom and I'm just like, so sad. Like, so sad because for the past, like two years, No, a year and a couple months, I've been struggling with, like, depression, like suicidal thoughts and everything. And it was just.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] You were feeling that too?

Mason Laing [02:07:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:51] Why?

Mason Laing [02:07:52] Well, because I was, you know, I was gay and it was just. Wasn't great. And even after that too, and stuff, I just. I won't really touch on that because I don't, like, feel comfortable doing. But anyways, sorry. Anyways, sorry. It was like two in the morning. My sister Ashley's like, mason, what's wrong? What's wrong? Ashley? I don't want to talk about it. Like, nothing. Like, nothing. And she's like, mason, like, can I ask you something? I'm like, yeah. She's like, mason, are you like, Britain? Are you gay? I was like, yeah, Ashley, I am, like. And started crying because I was like, I didn't know what to do. And like, she's like, it's okay. Exactly how Britney explained it. Ashley was so welcoming. She was just like, that's okay. Like, everything is going to be okay. So I was like, thank you, Ashley. And so we like, talked for a bit and like 20 minutes later, we bought Britney. We were like, hey, girl, hey, guess what? Surprise. Yeah, two of us. Two of us. But anyways, and so. And it went on and so for like, months. Ashley was super kind about it, actually. She was just like, are you, like. She'd asked like, like every so often, like, do you think you'll come out to mom and dad? And I was like, I don't know. Like, isn't necessary scary? Yeah, it's, it's. And it's so funny because in my mind I was like, mason, you're such an idiot. Like, you already have one. Like, you already have like, a gay brother who's already come out to them. So you, like, you literally already know everything is going to be fine, but in your mind you're telling yourself, like, but what if, kitty girl? Like, what if. So anyways, it's like February. I think it's February 25th. Yeah, I remember it's February 25th. And at the time, my sister and I were going to high school together and she was a senior, I was a freshman. And there was this, like, break in between called, like, Panther time or something like that, where, like, you get a 30 minute break and you could go to any, like, classroom or the library. So Ashley and I would always sit together with each other in our math class because we had the same math teacher, but we sit with each other at a time. We were like eating lunch and I was sitting down and I was like, thinking to myself, like, you're never gonna do it, Mason. Like, you're never gonna do it. And so I was like, better just do it now, you know, like, rip the bandaid off, bitch. Like, and so I got up my phone and like, I text my parents, like, like, hey, guys. Like, the same. The same stuff Britain said where he's like, I'm still the same person and everything's going to be okay. And I know Heavenly Father loves me at the time. And so. And so I text them that and they text back and they're like, mason, we love you no matter what, and stuff. And later we talked that night, but.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] So you texted them? You came out through text?

Mason Laing [02:11:25] I came out through text the classy way.

Britton Laing [02:11:28] I mean, it's safer because you're not right there there with them. And so I wonder if I.

Mason Laing [02:11:32] Here, I bet I have the text pulled up. I can even find it.

Britton Laing [02:11:36] Yeah, but it is. I. I think there's no problem with any which way you come out because it's whatever you feel safest with.

Mason Laing [02:11:43] Yep.

Britton Laing [02:11:44] Mom and dad especially.

Mason Laing [02:11:46] She.

Britton Laing [02:11:46] Deep down, it's not there.

John Dehlin [02:11:49] And they were. They were accepting.

Mason Laing [02:11:51] Yeah, they were super accepting, obviously, because of brand stuff.

Britton Laing [02:11:54] But no, it's because of me. They're. Because they're amazing.

Mason Laing [02:11:57] Because I'm amazing.

Britton Laing [02:11:58] Oh, yes, you are.

Mason Laing [02:12:01] But, yeah, so I told them. And then after that, it was still, like. It was rough because it was like, but who am I, like? And so at the time after that, I started thinking, after I came out to them, it was almost sort of freeing because I started, like, thinking for myself, like, aside from the church, I was like, where do I fit into this eternal plan? And then it just. It wasn't good. It was just, you know, like, this. All the stuff Britain said, like, it's just thing after thing where you're just like. You try to find little loopholes in your life, and it's. It's. It's crushing because you're. You're trying to find these. These, like, little bits of joy and happiness in your life to make you feel better that you can. You can make it to the social kingdom. Like, you can do the right things and stuff. And also at the time, I was, like, comparing myself to Britain, too. I was like. I was like, wait, I'm not as good as Bryn or anything, and so sorry. So I would think, like, how am I ever gonna get to the social kingdom? Like, and like, your whole reality is based on, like, the end goal to get to this now that I believe this imaginary place that's. It's just so rough. But, yeah, and so. And that's kind of where that's, like when I started kind of thinking, I can't go back to church and stuff, but I don't know where you want to stop.

John Dehlin [02:13:39] So you started thinking the church might not be true, or at least you couldn't be a part of it.

Mason Laing [02:13:44] Yeah, and I couldn't be a part of it because it was just I. At the time, Britain. I remember hearing Britain is like, sorry, I. I. He was gonna get married to a woman and stuff. And in my head, I'm like, I can't do that. Like, I can't get married to a woman. But, yeah, do you want to keep going on to when, like, I was like, finally, I can't do this. So what happened is that year we also learned that we're moving back to Washington, thank goodness, but we keep going. And so we're living there, and we pack everything up, and we drive to Idaho, stay there for, like, two weeks while they're like, getting our house ready and on base in Washington. And so while I'm there, I'm just like, this is kind of like the pinnacle moment. I was like, I'm moving back to Washington. Everything's supposed to be better now. Why isn't everything better now? And so I was like. And so I got up one morning

John Dehlin [02:14:49] because you were excited to leave Maryland.

Mason Laing [02:14:51] Yeah, I was excited to leave Maryland. I thought everything was going to be

John Dehlin [02:14:54] fixed and you had come out.

Mason Laing [02:14:55] Yeah. And I come out and, like, obviously things were better, but nothing was, like, truly, like, happy. So I woke up one morning, I was like, I can't. Like, I can't be a part of the church. Like, in my head, I'm like, I can't do this anymore. Like, I can't deal with the church anymore. And so I just lay back down and I stay in bed the whole day. I just stay there. Like, my sister Ashley comes to visit me and she's like, mason, are you okay? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay. My mom comes to visit me. I hadn't eaten all day. And so finally, it's like three o' clock in the afternoon. And so. And Mom's like, come on, we gotta get you some food. Like, let's go to Arctic Circle. And if you don't know, Arctic Circle is. It's like this restaurant. They only have, like, an Idaho and

John Dehlin [02:15:47] Utah, but, like a Dairy Queen.

Mason Laing [02:15:50] Yeah, exactly. So we go to our Arctic Circle, and I tell mom and my sister Ashley. I'm like, guys, like, I can't. Like, I can't do this anymore. Really. Like, I'm so done. And there are a lot, like, a lot of other details, like. Of, like, things at church that's happened and stuff, but, like, I can't do this anymore. And so that's when. That's when my mom was like, you should go. Like, you should call dad. Like that dad has some opinions about it, too. And I'm like, but I don't really want to call dad. Because, you know, dad was the. That was the authority figure. Authority figure. And he was the one who was like. Like tbm, right?

Britton Laing [02:16:28] Yeah, like gung ho.

Mason Laing [02:16:30] Exactly. Like Mormon all the way. And so I was like, I'm not gonna call dad.

Britton Laing [02:16:35] Like, what do you mean?

Mason Laing [02:16:37] And so she's like, okay. And so later that night, I got a call from my dad, and he's like, hey, Mason, Like, I hear something's going on. And then. And like, still now, too. Like, I don't. Like, I don't tell My dad, a lot of stuff of what I'm feeling. And so I'm like. Like, I'm fine.

Britton Laing [02:16:53] Everything's fine.

Mason Laing [02:16:54] Everything's going okay. And he's like, you should. And he's like, you can talk to me. And, like, you know, like, it's like, I can't. Like, I can't deal with the church anymore. Like, it's not great, like, for me at all. He was like, oh, okay. He's like, you know, I've been feeling the same way, too. And in that moment, he's like, hey, Mason, do you, like, do you want to, like, hear the truth about the church and stuff? And, like, at the time, I was like. I was like, girl, what truth about the church? We already know the truth, honey. And so. So. Yeah. And so I'm like, sure. And so. And in like, a two and a half hour discussion later, he told me everything. Like, he basically had, like, the CES letter, told me the whole CES letter. And I was like, oh. And like, in that, like, I felt. And after that, do you remember some

John Dehlin [02:17:47] of the things, like, if you had to list off some of the things he told you?

Mason Laing [02:17:49] Oh, like how Joseph Smith was a gold digger. His, like, what do you call it? What do you call when you pray after young, like, people?

Britton Laing [02:17:59] Oh, predator. Yeah.

Mason Laing [02:18:00] Like a pedophile. Yeah. And. And also the kinder cook plates and what other things? Yeah, the Book of Mormon and, like, how. And the other book that he based it off of and, like, all the.

John Dehlin [02:18:16] Like, the Hebrews.

Mason Laing [02:18:17] Exactly. And so he told me all of

John Dehlin [02:18:20] that, and I was like, book of Abraham.

Britton Laing [02:18:22] Yeah.

Mason Laing [02:18:23] And. And in that moment, like, people, like, people don't understand it.

John Dehlin [02:18:27] Like, what about the polygamy stuff?

Mason Laing [02:18:28] Oh, well, I already, like, known, like, kind of the polygamy stuff, but it was. It was always like. But it was that time, and God was okay with it, and. But in that moment, I was like, oh, I guess it kind of opened my eyes to, oh, this isn't like, polygamy isn't right? And stuff like that. And I was like, like, imagine if you were married to someone and they went and married another person and another person, another person, another person, another person. And so. And so he kind of put it in, like, perspective for me, too.

John Dehlin [02:18:59] So.

Guest 3 [02:18:59] Yeah.

Mason Laing [02:19:00] And then. Do you want to know anything about swad at that?

John Dehlin [02:19:04] Yeah. So what was that like?

Mason Laing [02:19:06] So afterwards, like, people don't understand, like, how integral part of, like, being Mormon is, like, how much of your life it is. And so, like, my whole reality, like, I don't I don't know if anyone's seen Loki. Like, Loki's full spoilers. But, like, when you go in the time, like, the timeline, and you realize that your whole reality is, like, not true. Like, everything is being a lie, basically. And so. And so what happens is, like, my whole timeline of my whole life was, like, what. What happened? But there was also another part of me.

John Dehlin [02:19:42] It's like when Elphuba goes to Oz, right?

Mason Laing [02:19:44] Literally. Like. Like, you go, she goes to Oz. Like, okay, if you haven't seen Wicked, So the Wicked Witch of the west, she goes. And her whole life she's been thinking, like, she's been an outcast because she's green. Because she's green. And she's like, I will be fixed one day by this wizard.

John Dehlin [02:20:16] He'll make me not green.

Mason Laing [02:20:19] He'll make me not green. And she goes. Her whole life, she's thinking, I will be great one day. Everyone will love me. As she goes to the. The Emerald City, she meets the wizard, and it's all a lie. The wizard doesn't have powers. And she's. She's just crushed in that moment. She's just like, everything I've been working towards and, like, me. Everything I've been working towards in life was, like. It was so. It was just crumpled like a piece of paper. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, like, how am I supposed to do this anymore? And. But at the same time, I was like. I was super happy. I was so relieved. Like, in the end, she's like, it was. It was just me. It was like, oh, like, I can make decisions for myself now. So at the same time of being like my whole reality is a lie, but also being like, like my whole reality is a lie. So it was. It was. It was great. And afterwards, I. I went up to my mom. She was. She was in the guest bedroom at my grandparents. Like, mom. Like Mom. Like, how do you feel about this? And my mom at the time, she was, like, still trying to work through something. I was like, mom, it's great. Like, I don't have to do it, like, anymore. And she's like, I'm so happy for you, honey. And, like, so it was just great. It was amazing.

John Dehlin [02:21:55] And terrible. Yeah.

Mason Laing [02:21:56] And terrible at the same time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:02] Did you ever have a defying gravity moment?

Mason Laing [02:22:04] Well, that's like. That's what happens. Like, you.

Britton Laing [02:22:05] You.

Guest 3 [02:22:06] Sorry.

Mason Laing [02:22:08] You realize, like, there's nothing tying me down. There's nothing, like, I'm. I'm morally obligated to do anymore. To, like, be seen in the eyes of the wizard or God. Like, I don't have to be great anymore. I can just be myself and I can.

Britton Laing [02:22:25] Through accepting limits.

Mason Laing [02:22:26] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:22:27] How to say the lyrics that mean a lot to you?

Mason Laing [02:22:29] Well, I can, like. I can defy gravity. I can be who I want to be. And it's. It just. It was great. It was amazing.

John Dehlin [02:22:38] I love.

Mason Laing [02:22:39] That's so good.

Britton Laing [02:22:41] One of my favorite lines is, so long I've been afraid of losing love. I guess I've lost. Well, if that's love, if it comes at much too high, I cost. Because that ain't love.

Mason Laing [02:22:49] It ain't love.

Guest 3 [02:22:51] Chills.

Britton Laing [02:22:53] Yeah, it's a great musical,

Mason Laing [02:22:57] but, yeah, that's what happened. And then that's where it kind of comes with mom and dad, too.

John Dehlin [02:23:02] So what did it mean to you to. You know, the Mormon Church is big on talking about pioneers. What did it mean to you to have a brother in your case, kind of pave the way.

Mason Laing [02:23:17] It was so nice. Like, it was like that, like following someone in their footprints, like in the sand. You're like, oh, this is pretty easy now. But at the same time.

Britton Laing [02:23:27] Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, at

Mason Laing [02:23:29] the same time, it's like you're also making your own footprints. And it's like, oh, this is really hard. But it was.

Britton Laing [02:23:37] Something I want to say is, poor Mason here. Being the youngest child, has had to always try to find how he can be him, play catch up. Yeah. And to get the love that he deserves. And I realize that it's also pretty crappy when you're like, crap. Well, this is something about me that was beautiful in my identity. And it's that growth of learning that even though Britain may be gay, doesn't diminish my identity. Who I am either.

Mason Laing [02:24:06] For a lot of listeners out there, if you don't know, I'm a bit of a narcissist. I do love myself.

Britton Laing [02:24:14] I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Mason Laing [02:24:17] And let's say I have good self confidence. So what happens is, at the same time, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so quirky.

Britton Laing [02:24:26] I'm so unique.

Mason Laing [02:24:27] But then I'm like, wait, I'm not quirky.

Britton Laing [02:24:30] Unique.

Mason Laing [02:24:30] Brain's gay too.

Guest 3 [02:24:32] And so.

Mason Laing [02:24:34] And so at the same time, steal my spotlight. Exactly. At the same time as me trying to figure out, like, but I'm not. I'm not Britain, I'm gay. I'm Mason and I'm gay.

Britton Laing [02:24:44] So, yeah, you're pretty damn awesome.

Mason Laing [02:24:49] Pretty great. It's also nice to like, have him do because, like, we can like, relate to a lot to each other.

Britton Laing [02:24:54] Like, girl, please. Oh, yeah.

Mason Laing [02:24:57] And it's just, it's great.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] Was it validating to either of you to have the other?

Britton Laing [02:25:02] I actually, it's funny, like, when I think back when Mason told me I did have a tiny bit of that same feeling, I'm like, bitch, that's mine. Like, what do you mean? It's so stupid. But now I'm like, no, it means so much to me because Mason and I now like, we were able to like, watch the same shows like RuPaul's Drag Race and other things and then connect. And it's just, it makes me so happy to have someone who understands me and who's family and because my family has always been. That's another thing. My family have always been my friends because we've moved around so often that I didn't have time to set roots and have year long friends. So my family's pretty awesome.

Mason Laing [02:25:42] It's great. We can relate to each other really well too.

John Dehlin [02:25:46] All right, well, that was beautiful. Well, I guess we can bring your parents back on and have them talk about their favorite faith journey. I don't know how much time we have left because I know your dad's got to get to the airport at some point, but. But their faith journey is, is an important part of the story. But thank you know you're. That was such an amazing, vulnerable and powerful story. They're gonna. The whole thing is going to be so useful and there's so many clips we can harvest from that for tick tock for YouTube as well. Anything you guys want to say kind of to close out your. This part of the story? Me,

Britton Laing [02:26:22] I'm.

John Dehlin [02:26:22] If you want to look at any of the gay kids out there or closeted gay kids out there and give them some final words of advice.

Mason Laing [02:26:29] Yeah, I mean, do you honestly, like, oh, sorry, the. It's. It's all a show. Like, it, it your whole, like you think, oh, I'm going to come out and it's going to be amazing and everyone's going to love me. No, that's not how it works. And so, and it's like, I guess don't have a false reality of what life is. Don't think it's just gonna be all hunky dory after, after you come out or after like you get a boyfriend or something. Like, it's like it's always gonna be life and you're gonna have your Moments where you're like, it's so sad and depressing, but you're also gonna have your moments of like, hey, like, this is pretty grand and great.

Guest 3 [02:27:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:10] Is coming out been better than not coming out?

Mason Laing [02:27:14] For me, yes. But for some people, it's not. It's not what they should. I mean. I mean, I have no control over, like, it's maybe not safe for you. Not safe for them.

John Dehlin [02:27:24] Yeah, you. For you. How's it been?

Mason Laing [02:27:26] Oh, it's been amazing. It's been great. Like, I can, like, tell my parents things and we can, like, joke and laugh around, and it's. It's. I don't know, it's hard to put into words how much a part of your life it is. And to keep that from someone, it's painful. It's really painful. And so to like, have that out in the open, it's great. It's amazing.

Britton Laing [02:27:49] My advice would be the second anyone tries to shame you for being you, it's like they're not worth your time. That organization, that person, that's their loss. Because if someone doesn't like you, honestly, it's really their loss because you're damn awesome. And go find people who do it you.

Mason Laing [02:28:08] Unless they pay your bills.

Britton Laing [02:28:10] Oh, yeah, exactly.

Mason Laing [02:28:12] Unless they pay your bills. Pay them no mind.

Britton Laing [02:28:15] Lovely quote by RuPaul.

John Dehlin [02:28:19] All right, thanks, guys.

Mason Laing [02:28:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:28:21] Beautiful. All right, so I guess the next step is the Kelly and. Man, my brain is foggy. So Kelly, Kelly and Heather Laing lose their faith. I think that's going to be part three and kind of dealing with the aftermath. So thank you so much, Brittany Mason, for this amazing part two. Hope you've enjoyed parts one and two and join us right back for this third and final part. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be epic. And it's going to be really instructive for those of you who are trying to make sense of the Mormon Church and what it all means means. And for those who love the Laing family and. Or want to understand what happened to them, you're about to find out. So stay tuned. Thanks so much. And Kara, thanks so much for joining us.

Guest 3 [02:29:09] Yeah, this was. This was. Again, speechless at the end of another hour of the Laing family. You guys are awesome.

Britton Laing [02:29:17] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:29:17] Thanks so much. All right, don't go away. Come right back for part three. Thanks, everybody.

Kelly's Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1468

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to part three of this epic Mormon Stories podcast interview. I'm John Dehlin. I'm here with Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara.

Guest 4 [00:00:09] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] And we are doing part three of the Laing family, Kelly and Heather Laing. We did the first part with them talking about their Mormon upbringing and their life in the military in the U.S. navy with Kelly commanding nuclear submarines. It's amazing. Four hour interview. You gotta watch it. Then we had part two where we had Mason and Britton Laing talk about being raised Mormon but also as being gay Mormons and what that was like for them. Britain reaching the point of suicidality as a gay Mormon missionary. Mason as well having suicidal ideation as a gay Mormon teen and how they both came to terms with that came out to their parents and what that reception was like. You gotta listen to part two and check that out. And what today, part three, this final part is going to be about is to answer this question of how did the son of a orthodox Mormon seminary and institute teacher, Kelly's father and the daughter of a orthodox Mormon family or semi orthodox family growing up in Idaho Falls, what would cause the stalwart featured in Church News, featured in the ensign kind of model Mormon military couple, what would cause this amazing power couple, this amazing power family to lose their faith in and leave the Mormon church? And by the way, this has only happened in the past 12 months. So it's all super fresh and people deserve to know why would such an amazing Mormon family ever lose their faith and leave the church? And that's what part three is going to be about. So welcome back Kelly and Heather.

Kelly Laing [00:01:39] Thank you, John.

Guest 4 [00:01:40] Thank you.

Kelly Laing [00:01:41] It's a pleasure to be back. And I also like to hear your sons. Yes. And that's actually what I want to start off with is just thank you for that opportunity to sit there and listen to our sons tell their story from their perspective to somebody else brought incredible perspective to us and that was a gift that no one else could give us. So thank you, John. I think we need to jump back into where we started to find out about Britain. So we had moved out to Annapolis, Maryland, Crazy busy career. We had gone through so many things in our lives and just a lot of trials with the church. I will just actually backstep a little bit. Where back in 2008 I was serving in a bishopric where no fault of the bishop himself, he got very ill due to shingles and due to some bad medication and bad treatments by several doctors, he ended up having some psychotropic effects and things that affected his brain to where he, I believe, truly went insane. That was not caught in time, and it ended up costing him to where he went literally crazy. While he was bishop, I tried getting help from the stake president from Area 70 was not getting the help I needed. I finally had to report him at work because he worked with me due to security clearances.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] So you're in a bishopric.

Kelly Laing [00:02:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] And your bishop's going mad.

Kelly Laing [00:02:59] Yes. And he's taking temple recommends away from good, faithful members. He's destroying this ward. He's accusing people of things that really aren't happening. Some pretty horrendous things.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] And are you telling this in the context of kind of cracks beginning to develop in yourself? Is that.

Kelly Laing [00:03:14] And the whole reason I tell this and this story itself would actually take a couple hours. And it's not the place here. And I also want to protect his widow. And that's the point, is he ended up getting to a point where, as bishop, he committed suicide.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] Died by suicide as a Mormon bishop.

Kelly Laing [00:03:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] And you were his counselor.

Kelly Laing [00:03:33] Yes. And I was carrying the ward for about six months before he did that. Working with the stake president, working with area authority. And that crushed me because the things that he was doing while he was still bishop, we didn't know all the ins and outs of his medical condition at the time. But the whole paradigm of the church will never lead you astray. The leaders will never lead you astray.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Or that they're inspired.

Kelly Laing [00:03:59] Yes. And the stuff that was going on was not inspired. And he actually stepped out and committed adultery before he committed suicide. And I don't believe it was because it was himself. That story is very long, and it's very nasty. It's muddied and it's bad. But that cracked my shelf a little bit to where I realized at that time, you know, in previous episodes of Mormon Stories, you've talked about there's the utility of the church and then there's the validity of the church. I started to have my cracks with the utility because I was getting overworked with the church. And that was a also crack on the validity piece.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] And that made you ask what kind of questions in your mind, is everything

Kelly Laing [00:04:40] that comes from the brethren and from leaders inspired of God? I also started to see inside of his inner workings where he was questioning members as far as are they truly paying enough tithing? And he'd have me go through records and see what they paid in tithing

John Dehlin [00:04:54] compared to what you imagine their income might be.

Kelly Laing [00:04:58] Yeah. And what their income might be, which I thought was not Right. At all. And that's not been the case with the other bishopric I was in, but that was one data point for me. And then throughout the years, we've had other cases worth leadership where some of the things that they've said or done just really made you go. That just doesn't seem right. And so I started to question, well, is everything really inspired of the Lord? I became an apologist as a ward mission leader for many people that were struggling with their faiths throughout the years. And I would start to put little things up on the shelf and try to be able to explain how it is, why it is that things would happen in the church. But I always justified for myself that you, no matter what, you stay, you pray, you pay, you just don't give up the ship. You don't get out of the boat, the boat's going in the right direction. Stay in the good ship, Zion. And so regardless of the utility piece where, and Heather knows this, I was always called with some calling where I was always out all Sunday doing the church work. And it became exhausting and I lost. Sundays became just not a day of rest for me. And it wasn't really a day of rest for her either.

Guest 4 [00:06:08] No.

Kelly Laing [00:06:09] And so with all of that, I get to the point of, through my executive officer tour and commanding officer tour and then get to the academy, I am exhausted. I'm now first counselor in the bishopric again.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] I'm now, you're probably wondering why they called you, right?

Kelly Laing [00:06:23] I did, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] That was definitely talk about the I.

Kelly Laing [00:06:27] When I got there, I had a first interview with the bishop. I said, look, I'm going to be so incredibly busy with this job. If you're going to give me a calling, I just ask that. It's a calling that happens on Sundays, a lesson I teach.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] Because you're working for the U.S. naval Academy, right, Right.

Kelly Laing [00:06:40] And that was a job that was not just 8 to 5 or 7 to 5. It was a Saturday, Sundays, nights, weekends, everything. You could imagine the requirements that were placed upon me. And so a few months after I got there, I got a calling from the executive secretary for the stake president. And he called me in and said, hey, stake president would like to meet with you. So I went in, we sat down. He said, the Lord has inspired me to call you as first counselor. The bishopric in the Annapolis Ward. And John, I had been fasting and praying up to that point. Please, God, I need relief. I can't do this. I was so overwhelmed with the job at the time. And the answer that came was you need to do more. From basically the Church, this calling came. And so that was not the answer I expected. But I said, I'm going to do it. Follow the brethren.

Guest 4 [00:07:35] And I think, too, like we've been told, you know, you get blessings from serving. You get blessings. So our hope, right, was that, all right, this must be the answer. We're going to get some. Some amazing blessing to be able. Stamina or whatever to, like, get through this and to do it.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Lord will never give you a challenge. You couldn't.

Guest 4 [00:07:52] Right?

John Dehlin [00:07:54] There's that saying, whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies. So there's all these Mormon sayings that do thought stopping, because your brain and your soul is saying, I can't do any more. So there's these pithy aphorisms that stop your thoughts and say, nope, keep giving, keep pushing.

Kelly Laing [00:08:11] And the truth of the matter is, the church will suck as much time, talents and energies out of you as you will possibly give. That's the truth of the matter. I did not realize that at the time. I just thought, the Lord will keep calling. So I accepted the call and I went and I did, and I worked and I served and I gave at the expense of my mental health, at the expense of our family's health, because I was giving all my time to the midshipmen, my job, and all my time to the church. And that left no time for me or my family. And that was a tough year. And that was a tough year. Mason and Ashley were going through an incredibly tough time at a horrible high school. And we kept praying, please, please, please help us. The bishop I served with, I love him still to this day, but he also experienced some illness. And I won't disclose his medical conditions, but it took him out for about four months beginning in the fall of 2019, which left me once again leading the ward as first counselor while he was away trying to get better. I was overwhelmed, to say the least, trying to run everything, not getting the help that I needed. And it was a ward that had a lot of challenges. The midshipmen were great. But then also at the time, you know, we went from having just a few midshipmen when we arrived at Annapolis to having now these 40 to 50 midshipmen that were constantly coming, and we were having baptisms of other midshipmen, and the missionary work was going great, and the stake president felt inspired that we also need to establish a midshipman branch. And so I went through and helped with that establishment of Creation New Bridge. Yes. And the decision came well I thought I was going to get called to the midshipman branch because that would be the natural. Hey, it's part of his job. He's going to always be there. He can work with him. It will take the pressures away off the the family ward. But the answer was is the bishop needed me and he wasn't well yet. So they left me as first counselor in the Annapolis ward while they organized the branch. And realistically I was still between the two because the midshipmen would still all come to me, the LDS midshipmen. It only increased the workload. And then as I mentioned in the last interview, I get to the point, I am just physically and mentally tired. I'm going to pause there because I need to back up with Brent's story because this is key. It was over a year earlier. I was sitting at a parade on the field ground and I actually had the chief of Naval Operations, Admiral John Richardson sitting next to me. He's actually a good friend of mine.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] It's kind of a big deal.

Kelly Laing [00:10:46] He is a big deal. And I served with his son on a couple occasions. And Admiral Richardson, he's now retired. I tell you, phenomenal man. And I never answer a phone. I mean military protocols. I'm next to being next to a four star admiral pretty much. And there's a. I get a phone call and you.

Guest 4 [00:11:03] I went and took it because I was next to you.

Kelly Laing [00:11:06] Yep.

Guest 4 [00:11:06] And it was, I saw it said Brazil on it and I was like, oh, I knew somebody there. So I ran. I just quietly kind of walked out. The full parade was in front of us and I'm like, I got to take this one. And I went behind the tent where we were all sitting and I took it and it was Britain's mission president. And he talked to me in his pretty broken English. He did pretty good and talked to me and said that he was about Britain, he was safe, he was there, but he needed to talk to Kelly and I. And so we set up a time a couple hours later to talk to him. And so finished the parade wondering what's going on.

Kelly Laing [00:11:49] I stepped away for a little bit and we had that phone call scheduled, came back and the we call when we talked to the mission president, I spoke to him in Portuguese because I still spoke, I still speak fluent Portuguese. And he said, you son is the most dedicated, honorable, hard working, serving missionary I've had. He's experiencing some extreme depression and needs to come home. That's all he told me. And he put Britain on the phone. He didn't tell me that Britain was gay. He didn't tell me that Britain was suicidal. He didn't tell me any of those other details. And he put Britain on the phone and Britain cried and told me how hard that he was struggling just with depression. And I said, britain, come home now.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Your Mormon upbringing, like your dad, right? I could imagine what your dad would have said if he had received that phone call and you told us that story of what your dad felt about your brother. So, like, did the thoughts of your dad echo through your mind or the opposite.

Kelly Laing [00:12:50] Oh, my God. I was living my. That experience all over my head from that experience with my brother and my dad, Heather and I, when he got married. That was one of the things we talked about early on, is no matter what happens with our children, no matter what, there's always a place for them in our home, in our hearts, in our lives, and we'll never turn them away because that one hurt too much. And, you know, it is. It's interesting. As you know, I hear my sons talk about my militaristic characteristic and as I really tried to tone down what I grew up with. And I thought I did so much better. And I think I did do better, but even then, I didn't quite fix everything. I should have, but I'm working on it still, you know. And so for me, it was a huge win to be able to say to my son, come home. We welcome you back no matter what. And we didn't tell anybody in the award that he was coming back early. We just celebrated him coming home, and he was welcomed with open arms. And that reunion at the airport was very warm and kind and loving.

Guest 4 [00:13:50] I was excited.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] You were glad he was home?

Guest 4 [00:13:52] I was really glad you wanted your boy back.

Heather Laing [00:13:55] I was crying.

Guest 4 [00:13:55] In fact, I was kind of happy he was coming home, to tell you the honest truth.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] Did part of you have to fight disappointment, Carrie?

Kelly Laing [00:14:03] The Mormon brain, yes, the Mormon brain finded the disappointment. But I honestly, I pushed that off because I told myself, like my son said, I'm very quick about when I make an adjustment in my mind, I'm going to take it on. I'm going to move with it. And so I pushed that off and said, no, my son served his best. He served an honorable mission. And whether it was only a year or two months or two years, it was an honorable mission.

Guest 4 [00:14:30] And I think we also, we just, we love Brit. And I mean, we knew who he was to us. I know that he was suffering underneath, but we knew who he was. And that, that Wasn't something he was going to take lightly. That wasn't going to be something. So it was very real, very important that he come home. Like, we took it very seriously that that's where he's coming and knew if that he said that to us, he needs to be home with us. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Because he was such a high performer.

Guest 4 [00:14:55] Oh, yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:14:57] And just like Mason said, Britain was. Of the four, we love all our children the same, but Britain was the easiest and the perfect child. You told him once he made it

Guest 4 [00:15:06] the easiest and he did it, which

John Dehlin [00:15:08] sometimes is not a good thing.

Guest 4 [00:15:10] No, no, no.

Kelly Laing [00:15:11] But we didn't realize then what was going now we realized, but we didn't realize then what was keep going through his mind. And on top of that, you know, when I realized hearing him tell his story about having his older brother go through that kidney transplant when Britain was 10 and Quincy was 12. And oh, by the way, the person that gave the kidney was this person and then runs a half marathon three months later. But I mean, that experience.

John Dehlin [00:15:37] Kidney to her son.

Kelly Laing [00:15:38] Yeah, she did. And you.

John Dehlin [00:15:41] Oh,

Guest 4 [00:15:43] I'm his mom. I love him. So.

Kelly Laing [00:15:46] Yeah, but I couldn't. I wasn't a match and she was.

Guest 4 [00:15:49] But you would have. So it doesn't.

Kelly Laing [00:15:54] It was. It's one thing to see the love of your life give birth, give life to your children once, but to do it twice. But then you realize there's always second and third order effects which the other children experienced and we weren't as attuned to.

Guest 4 [00:16:17] No, I feel like sometimes, I mean, there's, I think in everybody's life, there's just times when they're surviving, you're just, you're just holding on and, and it's hard to, to reach out to yourself, and you're just doing all that you can to get through it. And definitely Quincy's transplant time was one of those times.

Kelly Laing [00:16:34] So kind of a blur at times.

Guest 4 [00:16:36] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:16:38] But so coming back, you know, when, when Britain comes home from his mission, this perfect child, I was not going to disregard because growing up in my house, if you ever brought up the statement, dad, I feel this way, I don't feel, or this is the way I'm feeling, the answer was no, don't feel that way. Change it. You're not allowed to feel that way. And so when I, in our home, if our children said, hey, I feel this way, we tried to listen and validate those feelings. So I wasn't going to push this away, especially knowing also my mom struggled with depression. So in my Mind I come to the realization that depression, actually, it's not just, oh, I feel sad. There can be genetic things and there are genetic tendencies that run in our family. And I was not going to have my son go through what my mom went through. So we brought him back and we loved him and we tried and we searched and we thought, what can we do to help you? And there were a lot of tough nights and a lot of tough days. And amongst all the work that was going on and we got the counseling, I tried to get him to start to take some medicine.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] At some point. Did you realize there was suicidality once he got back? Did you realize how serious it was?

Kelly Laing [00:17:52] He had mentioned that there were thoughts that he had, but never truly disclosed everything because at the same time he hadn't come out to us yet. So in my mind it's just depression, but I never wanted it to go to suicidal ideations. We didn't know about the cutting, we didn't know about a lot of the things that were going on. But I knew that with a lot of people in my family, as soon as they were able to get on some medications to break him out of the cycle, they could start talking about what was going on. So I tried convincing him to take some medication. That took a little while. In fact, what it took was a seminal event. And it was a few months after he got back and Heather was gone at a fireside with the younger two. And I had just gotten back from some church meetings and I was standing in the kitchen on a Sunday night eating a cookie. Heather made me cookies often. And all of a sudden I just had this sick feeling of where's Britain? And Jonath? I still believe in God. And I still believe that night that I was told to go find my son. And I went and searched everywhere. And when I found Britain that night, that to me was one of the most life changing moments of my life. Finding your child, my child, in the process of taking his own life. I didn't know that he had other tempts or thoughts before and it was going to in plans, but that was the night I woke up to it. And I held him and I cried with him. And it broke my heart to see this perfect child, the one that was always so happy, go lucky. But I didn't know, was struggling inside his entire life with this perfectionism that I passed on to him. Got to the point that he was going to take his own life. And that broke me. It broke me as a father, it broke me as a human being. This person I love how, why. But that was the point that allowed us to start getting him some help. And that's what convinced him, I believe, to start taking some medication which helped

John Dehlin [00:20:09] pull him up out of tiny. As a mental health professional in training, you know, you call 911 if somebody's suicidal, you get them help immediately. I'm just stunned that the mission president and his wife didn't maybe let you know the full extent of that so that you could know the severity and begin treating him as soon as he gets home with the treatment that was necessary. I'm just sad that it had to come to that.

Kelly Laing [00:20:42] And as somebody who's dealt with suicide with many service members throughout my career, I am too. I'm shocked and I'm dismayed by it, too. And that comes back to Britain's point. These are good men and women that are called the callings, that are trying to do their best, but they're not trained. The church prides themselves in unpaid clergy. That unpaid clergy comes at a price. Well, they've got the money.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] Yeah. A couple hundred billion dollars just sitting in stock market.

Kelly Laing [00:21:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] You know, like you can afford some better training.

Kelly Laing [00:21:09] Exactly. Provide that training. Provide those resources, save lives and actually get people to mentally heal and honestly pay the clergy. They've got enough money to pay them for a couple hundred years without any more tithing. Let's do it. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] Right.

Kelly Laing [00:21:28] But I will say, coming back to that, it was a few months later that, you know, Britain relayed this. He called us and said, hey, can we talk?

John Dehlin [00:21:37] And we went, can I just ask you one question, please? Sorry. So, like, of course you can't judge someone's sexuality by their. Their physical, outward expressions and mannerisms and stereotypes.

Kelly Laing [00:21:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] And, you know, you. You might, you might, you know, you might look at Britain and say, hey, maybe, maybe you would have some ideas that that might be a possibility. So as his parents, had that thought ever occurred to you that he might be gay in any super meaningful way prior to him coming out?

Guest 4 [00:22:10] Me? No. How's that possible? I really didn't.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] I can't get that answer a lot.

Guest 4 [00:22:16] I really didn't. It was just out of my. It was out of my paradigm.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] Margi's shaking her head.

Guest 4 [00:22:22] She's like, thank you, Margi. It was out of my paradigm. Just. I didn't think bad. It's bad, bad, bad. But just, you know, I guess I always gripped, like, if I do all these certain things, just like I'm supposed to, if I pray hard like pray hard enough. If I do this, this and this and check all these boxes, then I'm going to be blessed with everything turning out just the way it should.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] Why would a loving heavenly father do that? Especially if you're.

Guest 4 [00:22:51] I really, really thought that and I had never really had. I guess, I guess Quincy. I don't even look at Quincy's illness with his kidney stuff as like one of those. I just like, okay, and we handled it, but I don't know, I just, I really didn't, I didn't think of it that way.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Looking back, is that kind of amazing?

Guest 4 [00:23:09] It is kind of. I will. And not. He didn't. I don't know. To me, he didn't.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] I guess he was trying to cover it up.

Guest 4 [00:23:15] Well, okay, so. And he also, he has had lots of girl friends that were girls, right? And sometimes that is a thing like how you said Britain. And he, he did that. But. But his older brother was also just like that. And Kelly's actually just like that. Kelly's friends were always. He had more friends that were girls than boys or. So I'm trying to think of the signs. To me, and maybe I'm just naive or I didn't know, but I really didn't even think it ever. I never thought it.

Guest [00:23:40] I think that goes back to what we were just saying that like, yeah, there's generalities, but there's lots of straight men who also have. So it's like there's never any certain flag that would completely be called on it, I guess.

Kelly Laing [00:23:51] You know, you're absolutely right. And you talk about certain. You look at the NFL and they've done the studies in the NFL. The certain percentage of NFL players that are hyper masculine, that are gay, that will not come out in the open when they do the closed surveys and stuff, but they actually come out in a survey where it's non attribution that they're gay. There's other. All kinds of things about these super hyper masculine communities amongst the military and it just is very pervasive and people that never show the classic tendencies or hand gestures or voice or speech recognition, whatever it may be that would indicate that they're gay by what the tendencies of society are. So I, I would. I asked my son on a couple occasions because he had a little bit of a lisp.

Guest 4 [00:24:40] But he's so cute.

Kelly Laing [00:24:41] Oh, it's so cute. But he also was very focused on always being this perfectionist type. Back up a little bit. I have a brother, I mentioned him earlier, his name's Joe And Joe is. He was, like I said, the jock. All American football player, quarterback, played for a couple of colleges. He would have gone pro if he didn't damage his shoulder in college. The guy was just on fire. Amazing football player. And Joe was. Talk about hyper masculine, too. Like, all the girls in school loved him. He had the dark hair and he had the looks. He had everything just cut, ripped, dude. And yet this hyper masculine dude that I would always joke around with about gay this, gay that. Growing up, and even in our adult years, when my oldest son's kidney transplant failed, the one that Heather gave him, six years after the transplant, I'm in command of my nuclear submarine. That kidney fails. I need another kidney for my son. I was going to give my kidney to another family. We were going to do the swap. And all of a sudden they find out I have damaged one of my kidneys. The person that steps up and gives my oldest son a kidney is my brother. And this guy is. I mean, he was already my best friend. We take rotations together. We go. Our families do everything together. We stay in with him here this weekend. This guy I would do anything for, and he knows it, and I know he'd do. He's obviously done that for me. I remember a text that I got one morning from him before that kidney transplant, and it was a picture that I still save on my phone of the savior holding this man that's just crumpled over and slumped over and aching and crying. And he sends me this long text. He goes, kelly, I don't know what to do. I'm broken. We just found out that my son's gay. My nephew. And he found out why? Because somebody in the ward found out that he was gay and went to the bishop and the stake president, and they called him in and they revealed it to him that way.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] And then he was outed.

Kelly Laing [00:26:56] He was outed. And then they restricted my nephew from the sacrament. They restricted him from getting his Eagle Scout. They restricted him from all kinds of things. He was branded. He had never acted on it. And it became this horrible situation. And they stayed in the church and they tried to stay faithful for so long on this. But having my nephew come out as gay kind of opened my eyes to things. And that's when I started asking my children. I never told. I did not tell them that my nephew was gay for the longest time. But I would ask him little questions here and there, including Britain. He remembers that time in Hanauma Bay when he. I asked him, hey, do you like men? That's when I. It was just that end that I had found out about that one sailor. And so I was kind of curious, like, is this something? And he. I also had noticed his eyes. He had just looked at a guy when there were lots of girls in bikinis walking around. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to notice the girls in bikinis, not the guy. So I had these. Looking back, yeah, duh. I should have known. But I asked him, and I trusted his statement, his honesty. But I also realize now there's some things people just aren't ready to share. And there's boundaries, and everybody deserves their boundaries. And the person who taught me about boundaries in life is my son named Britain. And that's this whole process. So fast forward that night. We sit down and we start talking, and then he starts crying. And we cried and he cried. And he remembers it was 20, 25 minutes. To me, it sounded like 40 minutes. It was forever of just holding and trying to get him to speak. And I remember the statement he made was, mom, dad, I've never been attracted to girls. To me, that was a mic drop moment. And I'll let Heather tell what she felt in that moment. But I'll tell you this, John. If there was ever one moment in my life that I felt pure, unadulterated, godly love and acceptance for somebody, was in that moment. I felt love for a human being like I've never felt. I honestly felt true, Christlike love, godly love, agape love. And it was not even a question in my mind. And I remember saying, I love you, son. And no matter who you love, I will love. You'll always have a place in our heart, in our homes, in our lives.

Guest 4 [00:29:33] The same thing. I just. I guess to me, I know it's different for a lot of. Some people don't accept, but I just, like. I was surprised, but I just knew. I'm like, okay, all right, that's fine. You can love whoever you want to. And I started maybe, like, thinking, what does this mean? But I'm like, it'll come whatever. But I just. I was just. I love you. And we just hugged and, like, we're gonna take the next day as it comes. But I. I was just. I was shocked, but not in a shock of, like, anger or anything like that, of just, how do we go?

Kelly Laing [00:30:12] How do we move forward? He's our son.

Guest 4 [00:30:15] Britain's Britain.

Kelly Laing [00:30:17] I remember, though, we talked for a couple hours, and then we went to bed that night. But I didn't go to sleep. I did not Sleep an ounce at night. And all I could remember is shifting from that intense moment of love. All of a sudden I started remembering everything the prophets had said, everything that was in for the strength of the youth, everything that was in the miracle of forgiveness, everything that was in all the pamphlets, the Boyd Keith Packer talks, the Neal A. Max Hill going back to the Kimball talks, going back to the 50s, the 60s, all the shame and the blame on parents if their children are gay, that it was a choice, that it was never born this way. How could God ever make him this way, as Boyd K. Parker would say. And it went through my mind. And that entire night. You talk about torment, an alma in the Book of Mormon. I was tormented for three days and three nights. Whatever it was, I was tormented. That was my hell. If I'd ever been through hell, it was that night. Because I could not come to the fact that godly love I felt for my son, who I now knew if there's anybody in the world that could convince me it wasn't a choice, because up until that point, I still had in the back of my mind, it's still a choice. It's still, you know, you can choose not to be gay, but if there was one person, and I told people this before I ever knew Britain was gay, if there was one person in my life that I ever thought could see God the Father and Jesus Christ as Joseph Smith did, it was Britain. That's how good he was growing up. And so getting to this point and I realized, Britain's not going to lie to me. This is not a choice. So if it's not a choice, what is it then? He's born this way. And I could not come to that bridge that gap. And I texted the bishop that morning when I finally had to go to work, I said, I can no longer do this. I said, my son came out to me as gay last night and I told him the story in text, a very long text. I said, I cannot serve as your counselor any longer because of the things that have been said and what I'm going through right now. I can no longer uphold the brethren for what they've said, and I need to get some peace and resolution. I need some answers. He was very loving and very kind in his response. He said, I understand there was more to it, but he was not judgmental. He was a good man. He really is. Two days later, Britton and I are talking and Britain comes to me and says, dad, I can do this. I can get married to a woman. I can still stay in the church. And I'm thinking to myself, how in the hell can you do this? Because I, I'm thinking in my mind, if you told me that I had to marry a man to get the social kingdom, like, all right, hell, it is, like there's not a chance. I mean, John, you're a good looking dude, but, oh, hell no. That's the way I feel. And so, but that gave me faith. And I said, if Britain can do it, I can do it. If he's going to stay, I'm going to stay. And so I pushed through, and I pushed through for another year. Serving, giving, working, doing everything I could, studying, trying to make peace, giving talks about how to stay, stay in the boat, don't give up the ship, but never telling anybody the mental gymnastics I was doing. And at this point, I'm winning the gold. We get to January, my bishop is sick, I'm still carrying the ward. Get into February, my midshipman dies. Covid starting to come down. I'm going through incredible pressures and stress and I'm having some difficulty with certain leader at the Naval Academy. And I won't name the name because for legal reasons and that whole adage that God will never give you more than you can handle at this point, I'm saying, bullshit, bullshit. I'm at my wit's end. And then I get that text from Mason that says, mom, dad, I'm just like, Britain, I'm gay too. And now my reaction is the very same thing. I feel that love for my son.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] All right, and now it's two.

Kelly Laing [00:34:38] Now it's two. And now I'm thinking in my head and I at this point call my bishop. And I said, I have done everything the church has ever asked for me. I've paid my 100% tithing the entire time. I've served every calling, I've done the mission, you know, everything they ask, time, talents, everything in the temple, as they talk about, I never say no. And then you look at the statements for the brother. And if your parents do everything you're supposed to, your children will turn out right. Famine, home, evenings, family, scripture study, family, parent. And yet I've got two sons now that are gay. What gives? Why? And I'm asking for answers and they can't give me answers. And as I go forward asking for answers, I'm getting these platitudes. So they just need to pray, you know, basically pray away. The gay. Just stay, just pray. Don't give up the faith. Stay in the mood, be patient, be Patient God will make it right. You know, they just have to, you know, stay strong in the next life. And I'm like, no. I said, I can't imagine being told that I had to be live without love for this lifetime in hopes for the next. I said, do you realize what you're asking? And I saved the full context of this text. It was a very long text to my bishop. I said, I said, you are literally asking my sons to do what you and I couldn't, could you? If I told you you had to go marry a man right now and sleep with him in order to make the social kingdom, would you do it? He goes, no, I couldn't. I said, then how can you ask that of my sons? How fair is that? Did God really put us down here to do that? And what are the options for them? Well, they get. They can serve in almost every capacity. No, they can't. Because if you looked at the doctrine of the church when it comes to gays, and you've already pretty much laid it out, you know, it's either you stay in the church and you marry somebody, or you stay in the church. You don't marry somebody or marry of the opposite sex, and you just hold on until the end. And if you do that, then you are hoping that you will be changed in the afterlife, that you'll be fixed, or you leave the church, or as Mason pointed out, you leave life. One of those four options is really what you have to go through. And if you do stay in the church long enough, what your hope is, is you're hoping to stay and get fixed in this next life and be giving somebody of the opposite sex that also was not worthy or whatever the church want, excuse the church wants to give. Was not able to get married in this life. So you waited this entire life hoping for love, companionship, and were never given that. And that's the best you're gonna hope for. But yet the church also has this caveat. The desires that you have in this life will be raised into the eternities. Oh, they desire to be gay? No, actually, they're born this way. But with the church's teachings, those desires will always be there. So you're telling me now it's one or the other. But their doctrine conflicts like so many other doctrines. My sons are gay. And as I started to engage with my father and others, trying to get help and answers, I talked to my father about this and poured my heart. I was. This was my just absolute breaking moment, needing help, My father came back with the basic, Kelly, we don't understand why people are born with this. But it's a choice, you know, it's no different than my desire to look at porn or smoke or drink. And I got angry. I got really angry. No, dad, it is not the case. They did not choose this. And it's not the same as wanting to look at porn. It's not the same as wanting to smoke. I said, dad, do you realize, I said, you got married and you had a wonderful relationship with my mom your entire life until she died from cancer when I was serving as an xo. She died from pancreatic cancer. I said, but when mom died, now I'm going to really reveal to you how fucked up our family is. And yes, I'm going to use that term. I told him. I said, dad, two weeks after mom died, you were engaged to your therapist. That was my age. How is it that you think for some weird reason my sons can go with a life without love, companionship, but you can't stand to go two weeks without companionship. You're engaged to your therapist. Oh, by the way, the ethical thing's on that one side, too. And, you know, the conversation went south from there. But I said, dad, this is absolutely jacked up.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] He couldn't last two weeks.

Kelly Laing [00:39:11] He couldn't last two weeks. He didn't. He didn't end up marrying her, unfortunately, because all the children intervened and, like this is wrong. And they finally broke it off. But after breaking it off, I kid you not, less than seven days later, he's engaged to another woman. He's now married to her. They've served three missions together. And she's good for him and she's a nice woman. But I reiterated with him you could not be alone. It drives you nuts, dad. All I wanted in life as a teenager was acceptance and truly to be loved by somebody that loved me as much as I love them. You understand that, and I know you have that. You expect a life of celibacy and loneliness out of my sons. How is that fair? Is God so cruel that he would create a very large percentage of the population to be like this? And the basic answers I got were, kelly, you're treading on dangerous water. The Brethren have made the doctrine clear. Don't criticize the Brethren. Don't go against the Brethren. And it went south even farther. We went back and forth, but at the end of the day, I was told, just stay, pray. Pray away the gay. Don't act on the gay. Stay in the boat. Which wasn't Right. And as I asked those questions of sick presidents and others, nobody could give me answers. Now, we did get a lot of harsh answers from a lot of different leaders. To the credit of the Mormon Church, there's two men that I would like to cite as phenomenal in this coach Ken Nehemiatololu, or I should say President Niyamatololu. And Ken, sometime, I hope you hear this. I was treated with absolute love and dignity. He couldn't explain why it was because, Kelly, I don't know, but he was kind. And when we were going through all of this faith crisis, as some people call it, and I actually call it a crisis of truth, and I'll get to that in. I had one stake president and I'm going to say his name, Steve Haas. When I was in the depth of my despair, after Heather had left Annapolis to move back to Washington, trying to figure this whole mess out, I get a call from Steve Hawes, and we were friends before. He's stake president in Washington now. We were friends before when we moved from Washington back to Maryland. I get a call from Steve, knowing that I'm struggling, and he calls me and says, kelly, hey, I'm going to be in D.C. can we have dinner Saturday night? I'm in the middle of the some tough things at the time. And I said, yeah, Steve, I think I can make you time. He flies out to whatever function he's going to. We get together Saturday night, we sit and we talk. We went from six o' clock that night, had dinner on the wing wall in Annapolis, went and sat on the wall at the academy till it was about one in the morning talking. And he listened to all my concerns. He listened to me. He couldn't explain everything away, but he listened and he was kind and he said, no matter what, Kelly, you're my friend. I said, steve, you probably got a big function tomorrow. Because he had just flown out that day. He goes, oh no, I'm flying back tomorrow, today. Like, wait, why did you come to D.C. then? What kind of a man flies cross country just to have dinner with a friend and sit with him? That's the kind of man Steve Hawes is. There are great people inside the church. Unfortunately, they don't know the whole truth. And this comes to the informed consent, John. Because when I was going through this and I was not getting answers on how it is my children fit into the plan of salvation, my children's courage allowed me to take the blinders off and start looking elsewhere for answers because I needed answers for Them. I needed to understand this LGBTQ thing. As somebody who grew up very homophobic, I needed to find out why, how, what to do, how to help them. And as I started looking for answers the church couldn't give and wouldn't give, I looked outside the church and I started finding the answers I needed, answers that actually explain things away. And there's some incredible TED talks out there, including yours and others. And there's a lot of resources out there that are helping me understand the science behind it, but also even more so, how to embrace it and to love people because of it. And I started to become an ally. But as I started to look, I started to find out, well, how my kids, my kids still don't fit in the plan of salvation. As I started to look into things, having that dissonance between what the church preached and what my sons were, I couldn't make reason of it. And I went out to the beach one day on a Saturday just to think. Dying inside mentally. And on the way back, I remember thinking about Jerry and Julie Johnson. They left the church. Why did they leave the church? I didn't understand fully. And so I googled it because I knew they did some sort of story about it. And lo and behold, this thing called Mormon Stories pops up. And the two hour drive back, I started listening to their multi hour episode and I listened to it all the way on the way beach back. About two hours into it, I stopped the episode and I said, I gotta call Jerry. And I called him. I still had his number.

Engaging With Church History and the CES Letter

John Dehlin [00:44:53] Now, you had known earlier, right, that they left the church and maybe you'd even known that they had done an interview.

Kelly Laing [00:45:00] They did not. With who or not what or how.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] You didn't watch or listen then. Why not?

Kelly Laing [00:45:06] Because it's anti Mormon. Because of course they wanted to leave the church. Because Julie and Jerry are very smart people and they probably thought themselves out of the church. There's all kinds of Mary's excuses, but these were regardless, they were still our friends, if anybody ever knows that. Jerrolee and Jerry Johnson, some of the finest people you ever meet in life. But as I listened to their story and they started to talk about why and Jerry had no intention of leaving and their story is epic. They started talking about the true history of the church and what was going on. I said, whoa, what is the CES letter? And so I got back, I read that entire letter that night. I sent it to Heather. I dove into other things.

Guest 4 [00:45:49] It was after you talked with Jerry.

Kelly Laing [00:45:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] You talked to Jerry first?

Kelly Laing [00:45:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] What did you ask Jerry?

Kelly Laing [00:45:56] I asked him, why? What was it? And he actually recommended Kelly. You need to jump into the true history of the Church, allow yourself to look even deeper and question without somebody saying, no, you can't. And it's just anti Mormon literature. He goes, you'll be surprised. Don't let me convince you of anything. But you need to do your own research. Jerry is one that's very much of informed consent. And make sure that you are a critical thinker. Read everything you can on every side of the aisle and make your own decisions. He wouldn't tell me, you need to leave the church. In fact, it wasn't his goal. He said, just, hey, this is what happened with me. Listen to the rest of the Mormon story. And I did. And as I started to read that CES letter, my mind was blown. And that started the. This last year where I think I've got a master's or a doctorate in church history and study.

John Dehlin [00:46:47] Do you want to just list? I mean, this is something I always have people do because there's always going to be people listening for the first time that have never read the CES letter and have no idea what we're talking about. If you had to list five or 10 of the issues that you learned through the CES letter through Mormon stories, do you want to just kind of. No.

Guest [00:47:08] Spend as much time as possible?

Kelly Laing [00:47:10] What did your master's degree, five or 550? Five? No, no, just five. I'm very passionate about this, as you can tell, because I was so in. As the apologist for the church. I could explain, right? It was. I could explain away the polygamy. I could explain away Joseph Smith, Gold digger. I could explain away. Fill in the blank. But then as I started to read the CES letter and reading about the Book of Mormon, okay, so my testimony was not in Joseph Smith. My testimony was in the Book of Mormon. I had just. I was just finishing it for the 40th time. And so as I. And I. At the same time, I'm starting to read the CES letter, and as I'm reading this together, and I start to realize, you know, the view of the Hebrews, the Great War, and all the other books that influenced the Book of Mormon. And that. Oh, my gosh.

Guest 4 [00:48:04] Parallels.

Kelly Laing [00:48:05] The parallels between all this. And then there's another great study that talks about if you having worked at the Naval Academy, we plagiarize, check every paper that's turned in. A midshipman does not get away with plagiarism. And we've caught some in the past, you know, because we do not take cheating lightly. But if you put the Book of Mormon into a plagiarism algorithm, holy shit, what it comes up with. It is guaranteed that it was plagiarized between several books. Even if it's not the exact words. The fact that it comes. There's so many exact storylines that are from other books in there. And the fact that, you know, 20% of the book of Mormon comes right out of a King James Bible that has all the errors of the Bible his family had and also what monks and Catholic priests put into that Bible. He had the italicized things, made it into the Book of Mormon. Nobody can explain that way as much as the apologists want to. And then on top of that, every prophecy that's in the Book of Mormon, Columbus, the Americas, Joseph, you know, this prophet Joseph being named after his father. All the prophecies of the Book of Mormon mysteriously stop right after Joseph Smith's death or, well, when he actually translates the Book of Mormon. Hmm, weird. The 19th century Protestant gospel is in the Book of Mormon. Everything that's in there, the language, the

John Dehlin [00:49:23] Native Americans, before Jesus is born, Right?

Kelly Laing [00:49:25] Yes. And then the thing I never heard about that just blew my doors off, the anachronisms, as a scientifically minded guy, when it realized, oh, my gosh, the horses. Why did I know this? Horses were not in the Americas until the Conchita story. You know, there were thousands of years

John Dehlin [00:49:45] back, but over 10,000 years.

Kelly Laing [00:49:47] Yeah.

Guest 4 [00:49:47] All the anachronisms.

Kelly Laing [00:49:48] The anachronisms. All the horses. No coins. Steel. Oh, my. How could I be so stupid? The sheep, wheat, and the list goes on and on, and there's dozens of anachronisms, you know, and I love how the apologists try to paint in the tapirs and other things that come into it, but when I started to see the anachronisms, I thought, holy crap. And then reading about Captain's Kidd's stories. All right, now, as a sailor, this is the part that really made me mad. I knew about Captain Kidd. I knew who he was, I knew his history. And I didn't know that Joseph Smith knew about Captain Kidd. But to find out about, you know, there's a gold digging that. When I heard gold digging, I was thinking, yeah, he got gold plates. But the fact that this rock in the hat thing, I was like, no way. There's no way that he translated the Book of Mormon using the rock and

John Dehlin [00:50:32] the hat where the plates weren't in the room.

Kelly Laing [00:50:34] Yeah. Or that they weren't in the room. That was later on that I found that out. Finding out the fact that especially with Captain Kidd. Okay, so Captain Kidd had all these exploits and was pirates and yes, he did bury treasures in New England areas and then some of them were found and hence why there was all the gold digging and the. And the treasure digs that were going on and Joseph Smith's family got pulled into. And for those that don't know, please look into that. That is mind blowing. And there's so much documentation on it. But the church kind of waves a glossy hand over it like it's nothing. But then Captain Kidd, he would stop off in a couple ports that are on just near Madagascar, off the eastern side of Africa. And one of the ports is in an island called the Comoros Islands. Well, the funny thing about it is yes those old maps, it was Camorra. Not today the Camorra signs. It was Camorra.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] And the capital city.

Kelly Laing [00:51:28] And the capital city Moroni. And down in my office from a map from 1972 I have a world map because of all the strategic stuff that we do. But this is a kind of a legacy map we have up sitting right in front of me is the island, the Camorra island and Moroni the capital. And it just makes me mad because I sat there and I went, I'm a dumb. You know what I felt like the sucker. You know those old Disney cartoons where the donkey. You're like, I'm a jackass. How did I believe this?

Guest [00:52:01] Can I ask a follow up to that please? You were a commanding officer of several nuclear submarines who read the book of Mormon 40 times. How did you make sense of the Jaredite submarine?

John Dehlin [00:52:13] That's a great question. Tell us, tell us. Give us two minutes on this. On the barges. Tight as a dish.

Kelly Laing [00:52:23] Kara, I mean, I love you.

Guest [00:52:27] Oh yes, we're going to talk dumb things. The Kumar islands that would go over my head.

Kelly Laing [00:52:32] There's this big I believe button. I'm going to push this because it's complete and total bullshit. Because you think about it like the

John Dehlin [00:52:38] Jaredi Burgess gives you Submarines 101.

Kelly Laing [00:52:41] These two bowls that are tight as you know that you have a hole in the top and a hole in the bottom and you can have with like a corkscrew. You have all these animals and you're getting tossed and turns in the waves and people are saying wives. Do you think about all the shit from those animals that's getting tossed around and back and forth. And I completely.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] But could they be submerged? Yep. Without metal. Without metal.

Kelly Laing [00:52:59] Right, without metal.

Guest [00:53:00] And they left the Tower of Babel.

Kelly Laing [00:53:01] Yes. To go build those. So we're talking about nuclear submarine. To make your own oxygen, to make your own water. And that they were on the ocean for this long.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] Plus how they feed all the animals.

Kelly Laing [00:53:10] Yes. In my mind, I'm just thinking and

John Dehlin [00:53:12] breathe how they breathe.

Kelly Laing [00:53:13] God made it happen.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] How they see light.

Guest 4 [00:53:14] God made it happen.

Kelly Laing [00:53:15] God just miraculously made it happen. But then as I continue to read on and I get into deeper studying about Noah, I'm like, oh, duh, right? Like the number of animals. When you actually do the analysis on what it would take to actually build an ark, to hold everything, when you start really looking at the scientific matter and realizing, how could I have been so stupid?

John Dehlin [00:53:37] Because you are two master's degrees, right. You kind of were a lazy learner.

Kelly Laing [00:53:41] It was a lazy learner. And that's when I got into the anger stages, John. I really did. And I'll save that for later. But the big breaking point for me was the Book of Mormon. But then I get to the Book of Abraham. I had never heard about the fact that those scrolls even still existed. And the church is whitewashing and moving of the goalposts from translation to inspired by. Give me a fucking break. Mormon Church. Yes. I'm angry about it. My wife's pushing me. It made me so mad. The anger kicked in. Like how. How a logical man can look at that. And the apologists try to wave it away. How you guys, it doesn't make any sense. Even the drawings you brought in, you use in the Book of Abraham. You actually reference those drawings and you say it was translated by the Book of Abraham. And those scrolls were funeral papyri. And they were actually written in, at best, the second century BC at best, not 1500-2000 years BC. And there's nothing in there but Abraham.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Not even his name.

Kelly Laing [00:54:52] Not even his name. And then the Kinderhook plates. That was the Kinderhook plates just absolutely blew my doors off, too.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] Which is.

Kelly Laing [00:55:01] These are plates that were found that were brought to Joseph Smith out of this Indian mound. So look what we found. And he looked at these, said, oh, these writing, these are the writings of this great prophet. I'm forgetting right now, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [00:55:15] And I will translate these at a future date. But these are, you know, just this miraculous writings. And the Church tries to explain that. Well, somebody wrote, you know, wrote that down and says that Joseph Smith said that.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] But in reality, the plates were what

Kelly Laing [00:55:27] the plates Were absolutely fake. They were falsified in a blacksmith shop in the 1800s.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Intentionally.

Kelly Laing [00:55:33] Intentionally to prove that Joseph Smith was a liar. And oh, by the way, the church said that these plates were going to be translated some future date until 1980 when it was scientifically proven that they were actually forged in a blacksmith shop. When the metallurgy and the microscopes and everything else, they could actually prove that. Yep, the chemicals that were used in the 1800s to do the scribing, the inscription actually came from 1800s. The church finally came back and said, yep, they were false. But they didn't ever go back and apologize like the church never does. They never apologize, they never actually say they were wrong. They just disavow things. But those are my top three shelf breakers. The fourth, polyandry. I did not know about the polyandry, which is Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives. That one angered me to no end. Why does he need to do that? And why is it that these prophet seers and revelators have never prophet seared and revelated themselves out of that one? How come they haven't explained that one? Oh, but then we have the gospel topic s ways. That kind of gives us a little hand wave. No, those gospel topic essays have no data on them. They keep revising them. They're not signed by any prophet or apostle. They hide them inside the church website. They take them up, they put them down, whatever it may be. And guess what? They never truly explain with polyandry. It's never in the scriptures. What justifies Joseph Smith to take another man's wife and marry her without his knowledge after sending him on a mission? And for people that say that he didn't have sex with them.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Wake up.

Kelly Laing [00:57:06] Wake up. The man groomed 12 year old girls.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] 14.

Kelly Laing [00:57:11] Well, there's actually. Yeah, he groomed the 12 year old and become a polyander's wife. Mary Elizabeth Lightner Leitner. Thank you very much. Mary Elizabeth Leitner. He groomed her from the age of 12, told her that he was gonna she was to be his wife and later on, after she was already married, made her his wife. Why? You know the 14 year old. Oh, I'm sorry. A few months shy of 15. When I heard that. Give me a break. And I read all of the church essays over and over, highlighted them, went back and forth. But honestly, those were my top five right there. When I got to that point, I called Heather and I said heather and I sent her the CS letter. I said I love you no matter what. I want you to know my love is deeper for you than anything ever. And I never want to disappoint you, but I'm going to tell you something that's going to hurt you. It's going to shock you, but I need to be open and clear with you on this one. And I'm going to use profanity, because that's what I use at night. And I never. I would not. I didn't swear before that, and it does feel good to swear now. But I. I called her and I said, heather, we've been duped. We've been fucking duped. And I said, I can no longer stay in the church. And I made the decision. I was done. I'd already taken my garments off. I was still a counselor in the bishopric. That was it. And so.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] And how long ago was that?

Kelly Laing [00:58:44] That was in. That was a year ago. A year. June of last year.

Guest 4 [00:58:50] That's true.

Kelly Laing [00:58:50] And I came out to my family in July. My brothers and sisters, my father. So I'll let you pick up from where I sent you that CES letter and your feelings, because I was very passionate about it.

Guest 4 [00:59:02] I'm going to go back to, like, after Mason texted us, and Mason, I'd have to say. I did kind of have an inkling about Mason.

Kelly Laing [00:59:14] Yes.

Guest 4 [00:59:15] Just a little.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] You what? You had what?

Guest 4 [00:59:17] I did kind of have an inkling about Mason being gay because cut to

Guest [00:59:22] Mason with two scrunchies in his hair right now, looking adorable.

Guest 4 [00:59:26] He's just so cute.

Kelly Laing [00:59:27] To be fair, though, in the last year, plus, he has become a more flamboyant true. All right.

Guest 4 [00:59:32] He's letting his true self out when

John Dehlin [00:59:34] you don't have to pass.

Guest 4 [00:59:36] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] Trying to suppress yourself.

Guest 4 [00:59:38] You can just be him. I. I definitely was like, okay, we can take this, too.

Heather Laing [00:59:45] All right.

Guest 4 [00:59:45] Okay. But Kelly, too. He. I was upset, but Kelly's just very passionate, and he's very, like, the injustice of things. He. I can be like, okay, and I can think of things, but he. And he's. He's more tender than I am. I have to tell everybody, too. And he's more. Has more heart. And so it just crushed him. Absolutely. It did me. But I was just definitely not as vocal or like, okay, we're going to figure it out. And I can shove things way down better than he can, too. And he went on this journey to do it, and I. I just kept telling myself, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll all work itself out. Whatever happens, it'll be fine. And I did I kept his tongue. It'll be fine. I told myself that. And I was also just like, live. Trying to, like, get through the days and living life. And Britain was going through his struggles, too, and we were chatting and figuring things out and stuff too, in life. And then. So go bound to. We left. So I didn't leave Kelly. I went to help us get moved to Washington. And Kelly had to stay in Annapolis for his job. He was. He had to stay there until September. And so we left and we were in Idaho. And that's when he called me and he told me that. And I don't. And I'm trying to think of my feelings. Like I said, I. I promptly forget bad feelings, usually because I don't like them. But I did. I wasn't shocked I knew where he was. But I'm like, there has to be something big. Because he. This is not something he takes lightly. This is big. And so I'm like, okay, I will read this. And he's like, okay. And I knew I had no worries about him leaving me or no worries about him. I knew he'd be there. I knew that we would be together. I just knew that. And I was okay with that as long as that part. And so I took the next couple nights. It was just me. I was. Ashley and I were sharing. My daughter Ashley and I were sharing a bed. So I would take my phone, and I put the CES letter on my little phone, and I'd, like, make it big because I'm getting old. And I would, like, treat it at nighttime. And I read. It took me about two days. And I read the whole thing, and I was like, well, like, that's shocking. And I don't know if I. I was kind of numb. Just like, wow, that's amazing. And I feel stupid, and I feel hurt. And I was trying to figure out how I felt. But ultimately, I think with the mo. The biggest thing. I felt betrayed. I felt betrayed by the church. Something that I had been given and taught from the moment I was born. Something I lived every day of my life, something I formed every decision that I ever made around a whole lifestyle, around that those kind of things were kept from those. Those things that they knew that there was so much. They were in the gospel topic essays. They were in there, and they would, like, let a little bit of it out onto their websites when they felt like they needed to get it out there, to pretend they weren't hiding it. And. And I just felt betrayed that they would do that, that they would keep these Things, keep these things from us and, and let us build all this stuff and let us revere someone like Joseph Smith and hide all the things that he did and all that he was from us and, and make songs and have us practically worship him and, and that we were always told never to look anywhere else because that's Satan's plan and that's following Satan. And I just, I felt hurt and betrayed and I said, all right. And I, that day, as soon as I finished reading it, I. I took my garments off and I said, forget it. I'm not doing this anymore. And I do have, did have a lot of follow up because the kids, I was very worried about them. I didn't know how or what or where it was going to go, but I was very worried about that. But I couldn't just live that anymore. But I just like, okay, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. And you know, we did. Mason, I already know this about dad. When Mason was having his little crisis and then we went to Arctic Circle and that's why I told him, like, I don't want to like, give away what dad and I are thinking at this very moment, but you need to talk to dad because, uh huh. Yeah. And I talked with Ashley before this and she had known and I didn't. And with Ashley, I never told her the reasons. I just told her that we had just found some stuff out and kind of we were working things out and she was super sweet and she trusted us and I told her she can have her own path and she can do that. And we all still loved each other and we were just getting through and stuff, but that's where it started. That's when we both decided that we were leaving.

Kelly Laing [01:04:43] And it doesn't come without a significant price.

Guest 4 [01:04:45] Oh yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:04:47] So I sent Britten the CES letter shortly after I sent it to Heather. I said, britton, I said, no matter what you choose, I will respect you, but I want you to know I'm leaving the church. And Britain took his time to read it. And when he got back to me in July, he said, dad, I want you to know I don't believe it. I said, that's okay, Britain. I understand.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] He doesn't believe what.

Kelly Laing [01:05:12] What? I took it as the CES letter that he still was going to believe the church. And I said, that's okay, Britain, I understand. You know, I pushed through and just believed so many things for years. He goes, no, Dylan, no Dad, I don't believe any of this shit. I'm Done.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] I was like, what?

Kelly Laing [01:05:27] And I was blown away. And like, what? And we shared it with his nephew. And I'll respect some boundaries there. But Britain then tells me quickly thereafter, hey, oh, by the way, I've removed my name for the records of the church. I'm putting my name.

Guest 4 [01:05:46] You made a decision.

Kelly Laing [01:05:47] I'm removing my name for the records of the church. This week. I said, oh, hell no. You're not beating me to this. So we went through and did the quit Mormon, Kirtley Gwynne McConkie submission type thing. I submitted parallel with my bishop and my bishop. I actually.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] Because that's the fastest way.

Kelly Laing [01:06:01] It is, it is. Through the bishop. It's the fastest. But I will tell you, having it notarized through a legal firm gets really expedited fast. So my name was off the records really quick. I've removed my names and I was Britain. And I have kind of celebrated that out. And I tell you, that was kind of an interesting journey. It is tough to go through those the whole cycle, because I. Will you go through. Let me step back. The most humbling experience I've ever had in my life, John, was waking up and realizing at the age of 46, I was wrong, dead wrong. My entire world and religious view was wrong. Because everything about my life I viewed through the Mormon lens. Everything. And when I came crashing down, I realized, like Jerry Johnson told me, one of the most freeing things was, I'm not special anymore. And even. And this is what I want to get to, too. Yeah, I may have been a commanding officer of nuclear submarine. Who cares? Someday I'm taking the uniform off. Yeah, I may have X degrees or whatever. Doesn't matter. At the end of the day, all that matters is how I treat people, how I love people, what kind of a person I am in this world. Do I make the world a better place? Do I make people want to be better human beings? And if I can't do that, then I'm a failure. That's what failure is to me in life. And Jerry Johnson told me, he goes, kelly, the day I left the church, all of a sudden I looked at my neighbors and said, ooh, they've got stories. I'm not better than them. And it was a big epiphany to me, too. And all of a sudden, I started to listen more. I started to realize some of my other views were wrong. And I've went and questioned every view I've had, and it has been healing, it's been maddening, it's been angering. It's been frustrating and there was a period of time in this last year, a couple months, I was in a very angry state. Not about the healing process, but as I dove deep, deep reading all kinds of sources of the Mormon Church. One of my favorite podcasts, I listen to every episode. Bryce Blankenship, Naked Mormonism. And yeah, he's a little vulgar at first, but his series, the Road to Carthage. Love that. Thank you, Blake. Sorry, Bryce, if you ever hear this, you meant a lot to me there.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] Your podcast care's adding that to the show notes as we speak.

Kelly Laing [01:08:35] Lindsay Hanson Parks, your polygamy. Oh, my gosh, what those women went through. And knowing that she started that, is a faithful Mormon. And it finally got to the point she realized, I'm done. The moving of the goalposts, constantly moving the goalposts. The church does throughout the years, blacks in the priesthood, every social change, you know, the church never catches up. And so many members, well, just wait. Further light knowledge is coming. Well, yeah, no kidding. I guarantee you in 10 years, we're going to have a revelation. Gays can be married in the church, of course. Why? Because it comes down to finances. But I'm not going to wait for some social change in some church. If it really was the Church of God and they were prophets, seers and revelators, they sure as hell would have been prophesying and revelating about this stuff early on. They wouldn't have been against Proposition 8. They wouldn't have been against black. They wouldn't have been against the era, which blew my mind. That's something I'd love you to touch on. They wouldn't have been against the list

John Dehlin [01:09:34] goes on and on civil rights movement.

Kelly Laing [01:09:35] Yes. They wouldn't have been so harsh on the gays and doing some of the stuff they did in the BYU in the 60s, 70s and 80s, the electroshock therapy and justification. They wouldn't have been against it. They would have actually led it. And God would have told them, inspired them. But it's not the case. And in fact, since Joseph Smith, realistically, what revelations have we got that have

John Dehlin [01:09:55] been really monumental, just undoing things?

Kelly Laing [01:09:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:58] Rolling back polygamy.

Kelly Laing [01:10:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:00] Rolling back the priesthood ban.

Kelly Laing [01:10:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:02] It's been unrevelations, not revelations.

Kelly Laing [01:10:04] I'm sorry. That was very disrespectful to our church. That was monumental.

John Dehlin [01:10:09] Wait, the logo.

Kelly Laing [01:10:11] Oh, the logo.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] I'm being sarcastic. Carol, stop me.

Kelly Laing [01:10:13] No, I'm being sarcastic.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] I'm off broadcast.

Guest [01:10:15] What have I done to you?

Kelly Laing [01:10:17] Yeah, no, but it was but that is part of the healing process and going through that. But I'll tell you, I'm coming out of the angry stage now and it's beautiful. It's awesome. It's exciting to experience life and it's exciting to experience friends outside of the church, friends that left with us and Silverdale. We have this ex Mormon group that is amazing.

John Dehlin [01:10:42] We got to hang with them last week.

Kelly Laing [01:10:43] We so loved having you up with us, John. And it was, it's healing to talk about. It's therapy. It was what it is.

Building a Post-Mormon Life and Community

John Dehlin [01:10:51] What's it meant to have for other couples, some of them former high level church leaders in the area? What's it like to have a little pod of close friends that you can hang out with, talk to ex. You know, explore a little bit with, etc.

Guest 4 [01:11:09] I. It's really not the greatest words I can put, but this whole thing has been. It's been amazing and liberating, but it's been hard and it's been a struggle because, you know, our life has been Mormonism and stuff. But to have these friends and to have these people that we can have a bad day and we can tell them about and we can in our text or whatever and say this happened to me and, and just get their views and their thoughts or just their love is really all it takes. And the understanding to be able to go and to have fun and to say what you think and to be your true self with them has been the most healing and amazing thing. And I love them all and I'm so grateful for them.

Kelly Laing [01:11:56] And the ironic thing is we were all in the same ward at one point. Oh yeah. So they're.

John Dehlin [01:12:04] We're gonna soon, we're gonna have a Bremerton rescue. There's been the Swedish rescue, there's been the Boise rescue. I'm calling it. There's gonna be a Bremerton rescue.

Kelly Laing [01:12:12] Well, and there's a lot in the stake that have left. I could. It's double digits and I won't mention names. We'll protect people because there's a lot of people in their boundaries. There's a lot of people that aren't ready for that. But I would love for you to talk about the. What were your shelf items?

Guest 4 [01:12:27] Oh, I. There are a lot of things that made me very, very frustrated. Polyandry was a huge one. Why did he have to marry other people's wives? What was even the purpose of that? But. And then the misogyny that I've seen in the church as I lived in It. I didn't notice it as much. I'd have to say. Kelly has always been really awesome to me. He probably believes in me more than I ever believed in myself. So I didn't feel ever like he was, like, being domineering to me and stuff. But as I have left and the things I have read and things like that, and as my daughter has gotten older, I kind of view it through her eyes and her going through the things of the church and that. And I see it more like that. And that one kind of makes me a lot angry. And that these men are the ones who get to say if we're worthy or not and that they get to have that power over us. And I don't really appreciate it, but I guess all of it. I just feel betrayed and angry that they kept that all from us. And here we are trying to pick up the pieces. And in essence, it does. Like I said, my family is awesome and amazing. And I know that this has hurt them because of. I know I was where they were at, and I'm sure. And they don't understand. And I am not somebody who I feel like I have to throw at them everything that I've read if they're not ready to hear those kind of things. But a big thing about leaving that I have observed that has really been frustrating is some different experiences that I've had and where people maybe that I have trusted to just understand, who know who I am, people that love me and I'm like, they know who I am. They'll know that I wouldn't have made this choice lightly, that I would have had my reasons, that I would have done this. They haven't. And they have used the church to view me as maybe less than. Less apt to be a good parent or less. Or that maybe the fact we were talking last night with some. Some friends and saying how being viewed as, like, Satan has led us astray and now we're under the influence of Satan. And. And so all of this is just pretty much saying that I don't have my own will, that I am influenced, that I'm being led around by a string. And that just makes me angry every time I hear that, that I. I'm insulted that people would think that of me, especially people I loved.

Kelly Laing [01:15:16] So, yeah, this. Without mentioning the specific names, this group that we're part of, those friends, they. People need people. And the fact of the matter is nobody gets through this life alone. To have your concerns, your life validated and what you've been through means Everything. And that is very healing for us. And since we have left the number of people that have reached out to us, we could show you dozens of texts.

John Dehlin [01:15:45] There's gonna be a few more, by the way.

Guest 4 [01:15:48] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] After this.

Kelly Laing [01:15:51] Just before we came here, getting on the plane, we posted that we're coming back here for Mormon stories. And I was surprised on Instagram, on Instagram and Facebook.

John Dehlin [01:15:59] Oh, wow.

Kelly Laing [01:16:01] It's definitely out there. I don't know if people always realize what Mormon stories are, but I've even had midshipmen reach out that aren't LDS saying, oh, I love Mormon stories. One particularly, like, I didn't know you followed Oran stories, but there's going to be a lot of people that will not understand. And there's a lot of people that will just judge us and not want to understand because of that fear. And I realized that because when I was Mormon, my entire identity was the church, above my military position, above my education, above everything else, it was the Mormon Church. And so to walk away from that, or when you offer, well, let me step back to offer the LDS faith to somebody and they turn you away. To me, that was. They were rejecting me. They're not rejecting my faith, they reject me. That's why I understand why people fear that when we walk away from the church, they feel like we're turning them away. That's not the case. I emphatically state I understand the zealot Mormons. I was one. But I was where they are. They have not been where I am at. So I allow them the freedom, the latitude, as they Preach in their 11th article, Faith to worship. How, where, or what they may. I just request the same in return. I also want them to know, yes, I'm happy. I'm happy without a glossy perfectionism, and I'm actually more free to talk about realistic problems and things in life.

Grief, Growth, and Final Reflections

Guest 4 [01:17:27] One more thing I want to just mention, especially going through this and the hard parts of leaving a whole life thing and about your family and stuff, is I didn't know how to put it into words, but I was looking at Instagram, it was back in December, and post Mormon, the post Mormon hug is what I was looking at. And they had this post on here and it kind of said it for me. She says she said, on a related note, watching your parents grieve, basically the loss of your salvation is incredibly painful and uncomfortable. Sometimes I just want to scream at how my spiritual identity deeply affects others. It makes me realize that it really shouldn't. Because at the end of the day. The tears are manifestations of fear. Fear for my ultimate, ultimate salvation. Fear of a fiery hell or a lesser degree of glory as a consequence. It makes me wonder why I ever believed in something like that. And that is what is frustrating to me, is that I'm happy. I am grateful. I have my family. I know where I'm at. I chose this not on a whim or not because Satan led me away. I chose this because I know these things now. I know these truths. And I am not going to put myself in a box of something that isn't true. And my spiritual identity is my mine. And I'm grateful for it. But I know how people in the church, family members, view it now, and they are mourning the loss. They are grieving for my salvation. And it's. It's maddening to think like I'm not grieving for my salvation. I don't believe that. I don't. That is not a construct I have anymore. But yet I have to. I have to go through their grief for me, which is unwarranted. And it. And it hurts. And then the little thing on this, it says the intense discomfort of watching your loved ones writhen, the tragedy of your apostasy will ease in time. And it's a little thing that I saved and I read periodically. Like it's going to be okay.

Kelly Laing [01:19:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] They'll get over it. Is that what you're saying?

Guest 4 [01:19:41] That's right. I guess they will. Or I'll learn to just be me and it doesn't matter. And I can live my own life and I'm happy with who I am.

Kelly Laing [01:19:50] Yeah. And that's the end of it is we have this life whether there's a life after or not. Who knows? Some people think they know whether there is or not. I'm going to value this life and instead of living for some fantasy life afterwards in this celestial kingdom where you get to populate mass worlds. I'm sorry, don't get the world anymore that you get to do. I don't know what now. I'm not going to live a life of hope for this world that is supposed to be better. I'm going to live this life now in this world that is actually awesome and make it better and just love everybody of every religion, of every creed, of every color, of every sexual orientation of every kind. Gender identity, every gender identity and whatever else we learn in the future that will help us be better humans. Because in the end of it, a lot of people think that when we left the church, we left the left, the divinity of what was next. But I'll tell you, in leaving and I started to see humans and humanity and seeing the true humanity that's out there. I see the divinity, and that's what makes me happy, gives me faith and hope.

John Dehlin [01:21:11] And as a bonus, your sons are still alive. I guess that's not bad, right? You get to keep your sons in this life. Is that a bonus?

Guest 4 [01:21:20] I'm pretty grateful for that because the

Kelly Laing [01:21:22] story could have been so much different.

Guest 4 [01:21:23] Absolutely.

Kelly Laing [01:21:24] And not only do we have our sons, we have our daughter and we have all our kids, despite the fact that some are in and some are out, we all are together and we're strong and we're tight and despite the failings as parents. And I recognize that. And I'm working through my own failings with my sons, and I'm grateful that they have the courage to even speak up about that at this age. We're getting better and better. Isn't that the goal of every generation?

Guest 4 [01:21:54] This life is a journey and a

Kelly Laing [01:21:56] process and one hell of a journey.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] Beautiful. Well, I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask your sons to go squinch and sit next to you in the chairs. While I'm just going to monologue for just one second. I'm just going to say this, that, you know, some people get frustrated at ex Mormons, post Mormons and how they have to talk out and how we can't shut up and how we are angry and how we're all over Reddit and TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. But the, but the deal is, is that, you know, there have been surveys done, 5 to 20% of LGBT of Mormon youth now identify as LGBTQ. And so this LGBTQ issue, some of you on Mormon stories might be sick of it. You know, number one, you should care about all humans, and that's important. But. But there are still lots of people still in the church, lots of parents that aren't as accepting and as loving as the Laing family. And there are just lots of kids that are still wondering whether they want to stay alive. And just frankly, there's still monthly LGBTQ suicides in Utah and amongst the Mormons. So this, this problem has not gone away in 2021. And, you know, this is problem is as big of a problem as it's ever been. And so why do we keep talking about this lgbtq? And by the way, even if you don't have empathy, post Mormons for the LGBTQ experience, and some of you don't, this should speak volumes to you about the Mormon Church's claim to have prophetic mantle, to have inspiration, to be led by God, or if you're a Christian, Christ said to leave the 99 and go after the 1. If you still are Christian in some way or another, you should be wondering why God's one true church, led by prophets is. Is leaving 5 to 20% of its youth on the ledges of potential death by suicide and. Or dying by suicide so that they can wallow in the comforts of their $200 billion in stock reserves and their privilege of being white, straight, heterosexual, cisgender Mormons. Like, there's nothing Christlike about leaving the LGBTQ people to suffer. Literally suffer, bleed and die so that you can maintain your comforts as a privileged, you know, East Bench, Utah, Mormon. Like, this should trouble you no matter where you stand or sit on the spectrum. So we've got this beautiful family here. Scooch that way just a tiny bit. And you know, want to make sure you guys talk into the microphone. But. But as we're kind of closing out this episode with this beautiful family, what are any final, you know, Brittner, Mason, Any final thoughts you want to share? Make sure you talk into the mic. And what closing thoughts do we have for everyone?

Heather Laing [01:24:49] I. I just have. Have two things I wanted to share.

Kelly Laing [01:24:52] One is hold that mic close.

Heather Laing [01:24:55] Okay.

Guest 4 [01:24:55] Sorry.

Heather Laing [01:24:56] Can you hear me okay?

Kelly Laing [01:24:58] Yeah, yeah, of course I do.

Heather Laing [01:25:00] I. I just. I have two things I really want to share.

John Dehlin [01:25:02] One is as close as you can. I know it's obnoxious.

Heather Laing [01:25:05] One for me, when I left, when I finally decided to go, I was kind of by myself in a sense. I wasn't with my family like I was with family. It's just I wasn't surrounded by like minded people in that sense. And so for me, you're giving up a lot of your coping mechanisms. You're like, well, I sing a hymn. I go do these things to feel okay. And what really helped me was actually something that you, John and Natasha Helfer put on together. It was a Thrive retreat. If you go search on YouTube, thrive thriving beyond Mormonism. They have a channel. And that Thrive retreat, it's like 20 hours of three therapy. Honestly, I've watched it three times because it is so powerful to me and helping me. It's not about the church. It's not about what the church messed up. It's about, okay, now if you're leaving, you're thinking about leaving. Here's how you handle leaving and how to be healthy and Be a mentally healthy person, emotionally healthy in your relationships and parenting and, and sexual health. And it was such a blessing to me. I cherish those videos. So I would look there if you can. I'm sure we'll post it in the.

John Dehlin [01:26:15] Well, sure. And I'll just say thanks to Clint and Jenny Martin that literally went to one of these retreats and said, this is so powerful. We want to pay you and Natasha and an entire video crew to film an entire weekend's retreat. And so it was me and Margi and Natasha, thanks to Clint and Jenny Martin. We called it the Thrive Retreat. Happened right before COVID hit and we recorded a free two and a half day retreat and all the participants were willing to be recorded and share their experiences. And it's one of the most important things I think we've ever done and one of the least known things out there. But you can just Google Mormon stories, Thrive Retreat and you can watch that whole weekend. And I sometimes am like, why? I think that was a great event. Why didn't it matter to anybody? And I guess what you're saying is it mattered to you guys, to all of us.

Kelly Laing [01:27:04] Yeah, it should.

Heather Laing [01:27:05] Yeah. Yeah. It was so powerful.

Kelly Laing [01:27:08] Thank you to Natasha. I know you're not here, but you literally saved lives.

Heather Laing [01:27:13] Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:27:13] Thank you.

Heather Laing [01:27:17] That's okay. And this is my last thing. It's just my mom kind of touched on it and my dad too. It's.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] Lean forward a bit.

Heather Laing [01:27:23] It's just. It's just the fact that now I can. I can live my life and I don't. I don't want to live my life happy because I think it's an interesting topic of like pursuing happiness. But I am so excited that I can live and be human and experience all the range of emotions. The sadness, the pains, the mess ups, the times I get up. And I think that's the beauty for me in leaving the church is that now I can be human and that's okay. And not feel guilt or shame about it.

John Dehlin [01:27:55] I love it.

Kelly Laing [01:27:56] Do you want to say anything?

Heather Laing [01:27:58] Yeah, actually. Just like the world isn't black and white. Like everything in the world isn't. Like my mom was saying, you can't put people in a box and you can't. Just because someone does one thing bad doesn't mean they're bad or one thing good doesn't mean make them good. Everyone is a human and they're working and they're growing and just like, don't take things at face value, like, especially with like ex Mormons and everything. Like, listen and learn about what we go through.

Kelly Laing [01:28:30] Thank you.

Guest 4 [01:28:32] You know, I will second Britain's recommendation. He called me, he's like, you have to listen to this. And so I listened to it and to the retreat, the retreat, the Thrive retreat. And it was amazing. And I. There was actually. My favorite part was a line by Margi. She had talked about Buddhism and how in Buddhism, one of their things is, life is suffering. And I remember at face value, I'm like, whoa, life is suffering. I don't. I don't like to suffer. And. But then she explained it more and. And I love that principle, and I've actually used that so much in my life since then, is that our life is full of suffering, but it's also full of happy. And the parts where you're sad or you're suffering or they're not good, they're not your fault, and it's just part of life. Things happen. Things good happen, things bad happen. That's how it is.

John Dehlin [01:29:26] No.

Guest 4 [01:29:27] And you roll with it. And I think in the church that I definitely felt that it's always you. Yeah, it's always me. I'm not being righteous enough or I'm not doing this, or I'm not doing that and any amount. And if I am suffering, then I need to do something better to change that. And so that. That principle to me of just to look at the world in that way has helped so much. And I'm grateful for that,

Kelly Laing [01:29:51] I guess for my side of the house. The last thing that I would say are a couple points. Number one, I used to tell people all the time, I did not leave the church. We did not leave the church because our two sons are gay. We left because we found out that the foundation of everything that's built upon it's been whitewashed history. It's been a lie. There's too much out there that proves that the church is not true. It's not what it claims to be. There is still a lot of good that comes from the church, and we recognize that for the members that want to stay. But what we ask for is understand that we didn't leave because we wanted to go. Sin. Far from it. I mean, the pain and the turmoil you go through when you actually leave an entire social and religious construct is nothing I would wish upon anybody. But when you take that pill, you know, and bringing it back to the matrix and you realize what you actually are living in, no matter what pain you're going to go through, you want truth. And truth is what matters most. But with that, for those that go through this process understand it is painful, it is hard, it is not easy, as all of the ex Mormons do. But at the end, we have a choice. Once we go through that burning and that fire and everything gets burnt to the ground, do we sit there and wallow in the ashes? Are we going to plant something new? Are we going to pick ourselves up, dust off? Are we going to get moving on? And that's what we choose to do. We're not going to stay bitter. We're going to get better and better and better. And that's my challenge to all those out there, even the Mormons, the active lds that stay in, get better, love, better, be the Steve Hawes of the world. The stake president flew across country to have dinner with me just to listen, be that kind of Mormon. Because I tell you, if every Mormon or member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was like that man, the church would not have the faith crisis it's going through right now. Lastly, thank you. Thank you to you, John. Thank you to Margi. Thank you Kara. Thank you to everyone else that made the journey to go through this. Thank you to my brother that went through the and was my therapist along the way, Joe.

John Dehlin [01:32:02] Thank you, Joe.

Kelly Laing [01:32:03] Yeah, Joe, you know, and he's been listening to me the entire time. Thank you to my friend, our friend group up in Silverdale.

John Dehlin [01:32:11] And thanks Julie and Jerry. Love you guys, whole Johnson family.

Kelly Laing [01:32:15] And thank you to one individual whose name starts with a T and I won't mention his full name because he's in his process of leaving right now, but we spent the other morning until four in the morning sitting in a hot tub talking about all this and I love this guy like none other. Thank you to the friends that are making it easier because though we are not paying for professional therapists right now, these friend therapists mean a lot.

John Dehlin [01:32:39] I think I know that guy.

Kelly Laing [01:32:40] Yes, I think you do. You did meet him.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] Beautiful. Well, Kara, what do you think?

Guest [01:32:50] Oh, I was just posting on Instagram about how much I love you guys. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I'm pretty much speechless start to end. And I am incredibly impressed with everything that you've just taken and funneled this all into like such positive words there at the end. Even when obviously your sons and your whole family had to sacrifice so much for your. Not just your military service, but your church service and your dedication and stuff. And so anyway, I'm just really inspired and I'll shut up now because this was the greatest podcast ever. I can't add anything else to it. Back to you, John.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] All right, well, thanks so much to all of you. Kelly and Heather and Mason and Britton. You guys are so inspiring. I've been looking forward. We've been talking about this for months, right?

Kelly Laing [01:33:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] Yeah. And so it's so great to finally have it happen. We're nine and nine and a quarter hours into the stream. Did not expect that. Yeah, it's been great. It's been amazing. Huge. Thanks again to Jerry and Julie Johnson, our dear friends, for helping make this connection.

Kelly Laing [01:33:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] And to all the friends. I do want to encourage everyone to find your pod. Margi and I have found some friends here in Salt Lake that have and even some friends outside of Salt Lake that have been really meaningful to us. And I do want to just say that your group in Bremerton inspires us. You've shown your photos on Ex Mormon Reddit and other people have been inspired. But one thing is, if you can just work hard to find a Mormon spectrum group, go to mormonspectrum.org, go to Facebook, go to our Ex Mormon Reddit wherever you need to a thrive group. You know, one of the things we want to focus on over the next coming years is helping people find ex Mormons in your local area, wherever you live.

Kelly Laing [01:34:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] Uk, Brazil, Mexico, Utah, Texas, DC, wherever it is. You know, reach out, Reach out to us. Help us help you find your little pod. Because having a little group of four or five couples to help navigate this with can make all the difference. So that's one public service message that I'm going to kind of end with. But you guys are beautiful. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for your story. It's so inspiring. And just keep shining that beautiful light. And really, Britain and Mason, I just always love it when teens or young adults are willing to come on Mormon Stories and just. It's so powerful. So you guys are awesome.

Kelly Laing [01:35:26] Thank you, John. We love you and we. We owe you the world. Thank you.

Guest 4 [01:35:31] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:35:31] And Mason and Britain, you guys keep. Keep doing beautiful things and come back and give us updates.

Heather Laing [01:35:37] Interviewing three years.

John Dehlin [01:35:39] All right, all right, all right. Well, thanks so much again, Kara. Thanks so much for being our sidekick. Being my co host, I should say.

Guest [01:35:50] Yeah, we got to wrap this up because I have to go, like, jump into this hug over here.

Kelly Laing [01:35:54] Okay.

Guest [01:35:55] I'm waiting.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] Yeah. And just thanks to all the Mormon Stories listeners. If you donate, thank you for making all this possible. You make Kara possible.

Guest [01:36:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] You make Gerardo possible. You make Brooklyn possible. You make me possible. You make this cinematography possible. The studio, if you don't support us, we lose 10 to 20 donors a month. And if we don't replace them, then we have to get rid of Kara or me or Gerardo or Brooklyn or these facilities.

Guest [01:36:20] I actually go back into the matrix.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] So please step up and support us. If you value this, become a financial contributor. Go to MormonStories.org, become a donor. Share this follow us on YouTube, on Instagram, on Facebook, on TikTok. Wherever we have the socials, please follow us. Please subscribe. Please share this episode and others with everybody else and we'll turn the whole world big, bright and enlightened over time. And whether you stay in or out of the church, we don't care. We just want informed consent. And we want less LGBTQ youth suffering. We want less depression, less anxiety, less split families, less unnecessary divorces, less fractured families. And so for all that, please support Mormon Stories, please support the Open Stories foundation, and most importantly, just love each other and keep being good to each other. And let's all live big, bright, beautiful lives. So let's have one last shot of this beautiful Laing family. You guys want to wave to the camera? Yeah.

Kelly Laing [01:37:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] Thanks so much. I'm going to take one quick last photo of you. Smile. Smile for candid camera. And we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

Kelly Laing [01:37:35] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:37:36] Take care, everybody.

Kelly Laing [01:37:37] Thanks, Kara.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] Thanks, Kara. Thanks, laying family. Love you, Margi.

Kelly Laing [01:37:42] We love you, Margi.

John Dehlin [01:37:43] All right,

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