Introduction and Lori's Intentions for Sharing

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's April 20, 2024, and today we're going to be asking the question, answering the question, what happens if you're in a LDS or Mormon Church Relief Society Stake presidency and it lands you in a psychiatric hospital? And that's what we're covering today. To give you just a tiny bit of background, we recently did a bishop's panel on Mormon stories that was incredibly well received, even by believing faithful Mormons. And people want more. So we've been putting out a call for a Relief Society president's panel, and we've got so many great applicants, we filled it, we've got our panel, we've got the date set, it's coming in a few weeks. But there were so many great stories that we wanted to cover others as well. And so today we're going to be interviewing Lori Young. Hey, Lori.

Lori Young [00:01:01] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Thanks for joining us.

Lori Young [00:01:02] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] And yeah, Lori was in a Stake Relief Society presidency, and on the thumbnail, we called it her LDS Relief Society nightmare, because, in fact, it landed her in a psychiatric hospital. And I don't mean to be flip about it, but that's your story. So thanks for being willing to be vulnerable.

Lori Young [00:01:23] Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] And if that weren't enough, we also have my incredible partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:31] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Glad to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:33] I'm really happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] Yeah, it's great to have you.

Lori Young [00:01:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] And Margi's been kind of managing a lot of this behind the scenes, so thank you so much for making that happen.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And thanks to everyone who has applied. We have a new application process for Mormon Stories podcast, and so many people have applied, not just for the Relief Society panel, but we've got a ton of other panels we're taking applications for, and we're just taking general applications as well for long form interviews. So if you want to do your Mormon story, go to the MormonStories.org website, fill out the application, and we'd love to consider you. Also, if you don't mind, please subscribe to our YouTube channel.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Like this episode. And we're on several other social media channels as well. Those subscriptions really help the algorithms. Anyway, without any further ado, Laurie, before we begin, we often like to ask our guests to state an intention because it's very easy, especially for believing Mormons, to make false assumptions about why someone wants to tell their story. And so we like to give people a chance to be very explicit. About what they are and there aren't trying to do or maybe what they aren't trying to do and what they are trying to do by telling their story.

Lori Young [00:02:51] Great. Yeah. So my intention, sharing my story and being interviewed is one to talk about the patriarchy in the church. You'll hear a lot of that in regard to my experience in the Stake Relief Society presidency and the damaging effects it has on both men and women. So I want to highlight that and then also talk about my mental health journey, how certain things within the church led to a generalized panic disorder, which eventually led to me going to a psychiatric hospital, which ended up saving my life. So I want to provide hope to people out there who might be going through this dark period of a faith crisis and feeling like there is no hope, to let them know that help is there, kind of de. Stigmatize getting help and provide hope that there is joy on the other side of all this.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:42] That is beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] Beautiful. All right. Well, we're really grateful because it's the vulner and the courage of our guests that makes. It's the engine that runs Mormon stories. So thank you. Okay, so today we're going to take a slightly different approach than maybe we all generally do. Instead of going deep into each kind of phase of your life, we're going to have you give some background, but just the background that kind of informs the story you're going to tell.

Early Life, Education, and Questioning the Church

Lori Young [00:04:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] So let's start about, you know, your Mormon story, but tell us the things about your childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood that you feel like really set the stage for this horrible experience.

Lori Young [00:04:26] Yeah, sure. So, yeah, I was born and raised in Logan, Utah, so lived there my whole entire life. Went to Utah State. Go Aggies.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:36] Right.

Lori Young [00:04:37] So I think the biggest thing that contributed to my life and my experience as I started questioning the church is I was raised in quite an orthodox home. Very like, I would say, picture perfect Mormon home. So my dad was a bishop three times through my childhood. A singles adult ward, Utah State, our home ward, and then a married ward at Utah State as well. So. And I would say we lived Mormonism to a T. We really did. I mean, every week, family home, evening, we went to every activity. My dad was always in leadership the whole time. So as far as like, any sort of questioning or having doubts or even like, asking a question about something like, I don't understand this, There really was not any space for that.

Lori Young [00:05:26] There was no question about getting married in the temple, being active, saying yes to every calling. So, yeah, there was no questioning. There, and there still isn't. I'm the only one. Six children, and it's just me. So. Yeah. So that kind of set the stage for things we'll talk about later. In regard to why I felt there was no hope for life when I started questioning and leaving the church was just not wanting to disappoint the family and the people that I loved. But I would say my childhood was fantastic. Like, it was a wonderful childhood. Loving parents, loving family, really great. So.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Okay. Okay. So the traditional, ideal Mormon childhood. That sounds like it's all going well so far.

Lori Young [00:06:15] Yeah, yeah. Everything went really great for me. Total believer. Right. Loved primary, loved all that stuff. I started having issues when I started going to young women's.

John Dehlin [00:06:29] That's 12.

Lori Young [00:06:29] 12 years old. Yeah. Which is 12 years old is when you start going as a girl. And especially when I started going. I don't know how it is now, but this would be 35 years ago. The focus was always on just getting to the temple and getting married in the temple. That was everything. So most. That's what we talked about, being worthy to the temple, preparing for marriage, preparing for motherhood. That was very much the focus. And for me, I kind of. I've always considered myself a little feminist. Like, I've always had that little streak in me. Always. Very much felt like the black sheep in my family growing up, always. Because I was kind of the loud, outspoken one. The only time I ever got in trouble, honestly, for my dad, is because I talked too much when guests came over.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:19] So interesting.

Lori Young [00:07:21] Kind of the open one. Yeah. So when we started having a bunch of lessons on that in young women's, I would get very bugged. You know, Like, I remember we had one lesson on education, and the teacher, the instructor in Young Women's, was talking about how important it was that we get an education. We go to college, you know, in case our husbands died or in case we got a divorce. And. And I'm like, I want to just get an education.

Lori Young [00:07:47] Like, it really made me angry. So I would say that's when I started kind of questioning and feeling like things were not equal, you know? And then we would go Wednesday for the midweek activities. So with the youth organizations in the LDS Church, they always have midweek activities, and we'd go there, and the boys would be playing basketball in the gym, and we would be back, like, learning how to make bread or something, you know, And I'm like, what is going on? So those little things started really bugging me during kind of my teenage years.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] Can I ask you a question about that. So if you ask like a Mormon church PR rep today, does the Mormon Church encourage its young women to get, you know, get an education? They would say, oh, yes, we have doctors who are women and we have lawyers who are women, and we love our young. We have high, you know, college attendance rates of Mormon women. I don't think they would own up to the fact that your experience might be common. How in the world did you end up feeling that education was discouraged as a teenage young woman?

Lori Young [00:08:56] Yeah, I think because it was talked about so much. Like. I don't know if you recall, but this is the time. Gordon B. Hinckley, I think, was just becoming prophet around that time. And I remember, in fact, he actually gave a talk about women or girls getting an education. And I think because they want to give that Persona, but there's always with the caveat at the end, like, get an education so that you'll be a better mother. Get an education so that you're prepared financially if your husband gets laid off or if you get a divorce or something like that. So it's like, yes, they encourage education, but there's always. It's always the underlying reason that has to do with your marriage or being a better mother. It's not. I don't believe getting an education just to be smarter for a woman or to advance your career is ever really promoted that way. Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Or. Cause education's enjoyable.

Lori Young [00:09:49] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:50] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Or it can be.

Lori Young [00:09:52] Yeah, yeah. So I always felt like it was encouraged, but for other purposes than I

John Dehlin [00:10:00] wanted, but funneled to traditional gender roles within a traditional Mormon family.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:05] Always it's like, get the education and then you end up back in the place that we originally wanted you.

Lori Young [00:10:12] Right, exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Got it. Okay. Thank you.

Lori Young [00:10:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] Okay. Okay. So as you started noticing the basketball for the boys and the bread making for the girls and education, career, de emphasis, how'd you deal with that?

Lori Young [00:10:27] Yeah, I just. At that point, it was just questions, like little things that bugged me. You know, I was still very strong in the faith. 100% believed Joseph Smith, you know, God, Jesus, everything. Did not question that at all. I do remember around this time is when I learned about polygamy and Joseph Smith's polygamy in seminary. So of course, seminary graduate. And we were doing Doctrine and Covenants that year in DNC 132. And people were asking questions about it in class. And the seminary graduates, for those who

Marriage, D&C 132, and Temple Experiences

John Dehlin [00:11:03] have never been Mormon, do you have a couple verses that you can give to illustrate what D&C132 might have said. That bothered you.

Lori Young [00:11:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] And I don't mean to put you on the spot. I could guess if that's helpful.

Lori Young [00:11:15] Yeah. So D&C132 covers what they call the new and everlasting covenant. And as people in the class were asking questions about that, I mean, good for the seminary teacher, he was honest. He did say that it refers to celestial marriage, which is plural marriage. Right.

Lori Young [00:11:34] So I think a lot of instructors do gloss over that and just say, oh, that's celestial marriage. It refers to the new and everlasting covenant, which is celestial marriage in the LDS Temple. But because there is also surrounding those verses, it kind of does talk about plural marriage. So that did come up in the class.

Lori Young [00:11:51] And so that's when I first learned that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage. Because of course it's not. You know, you don't learn about this in church. And so I remember going to my mom and I mean. I mean, I was furious. Like, furious. I could not believe this was a thing.

Lori Young [00:12:08] I just thought it was disgusting. And I thought it put women in a very subservient place, you know, kind of captive in these marriages. So I was talking to my mom about it, and she's like, you know, I don't like it either, and if your dad ever did it, I'd be so mad. But it's just one of those things you just have gotta put on your shelf. Like, God will take care of it. The traditional put it on the shelf. Right. And that was it. That was the answer.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Yeah. And when you say God disgusted. We have a really good series on our LDS discussion series about Mormon polygamy. Highly recommend it. But D&C132 is bonafide Mormon scripture revelation from Jesus to Joseph. And it's got language like if a man has a virgin and desires another, as long as she's a virgin, it. She shall be given to him, you know, and it's just like. And he could have up to 10. I'm making the words up, but it's just like it talks about women like their cattle or chattel. And it. It's very. And it talks about them as if they will be assigned and exchanged and. And they're just commodities. And this is in our scripture, so.

Lori Young [00:13:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] It's very disturbing language. I recommend we'll have Julie put in the show notes a link to maybe an episode or two of that so you can really get a sense. And most Mormons, I don't think you Ever really pay attention to it because it is objectively revolting. Margi's shaking her head, but somehow most people just, like, read on by and aren't bothered by. But you were right.

Lori Young [00:13:37] Exactly. And I think you're right. And I think this is the case with a lot of things in Mormonism. People really gloss over stuff. They don't truly study it and read all of it. If you read all of DNC132, I mean, it is pretty revolting. Yeah. And that's another thing that started bugging me because I was a seminary student. I read all the assignments, so I read all the scriptures. I studied it and everything. And you talked about the mention of virgins in the scriptures. One thing that really started bugging me is I realized whenever women were referred to, which is rarely, their sexual status was always associated with. It was always a virgin woman. The Virgin Mary. You get a virgin.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:21] Major descriptor.

Lori Young [00:14:23] Yes. Like always.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] And it never said the men don't

Lori Young [00:14:25] have to be virgins ever.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] And what if the women are virgins?

Lori Young [00:14:30] Well, then they're just nothing, you know? So things like that started really bugging me in the scriptures. Not to mention that the scriptures are largely absent women, except for when we're talking about their virginity.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] Yeah. I think the Book of Mormon names like four women and like 250 men. Some crazy disparity.

Lori Young [00:14:49] Exactly. And I started noticing those things and it really started bothering me. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] I mean, it makes sense, but it's rare. Weirdly. It's rare.

Lori Young [00:15:00] Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Okay. So where did that take you?

Lori Young [00:15:05] So going through high school, still, you know, still total believer in everything. Went to Utah State, met my husband there in the Institute of Show Choir. New horizons.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Don't know if you've met.

Lori Young [00:15:16] Yeah. So that's where we met. Really incredible guy. Still married 30 years this year. Oh, congrats.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] We're 32.

Lori Young [00:15:24] Yeah. Yeah. So we've been through. We have been through it.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:27] I can imagine.

Lori Young [00:15:28] Yes. As you, you know. You guys have, too. But anyways, so we met, of course, getting married in the temple, had a quick engagement, got married at the normal Utah Mormon, age of 19. A child. 19 a child. And now I'm like, I cannot believe. But it was very normal. Right. That's what you did.

Lori Young [00:15:51] But the first major crack in my shelf, which was getting heavy with things, was when I went through the temple the first time two weeks before we got married. And this, you know, they've changed the endowment ceremony quite a bit since this time. But when I went through. The first time, I felt so betrayed, Like, I could not believe I'm sitting around with people I love. My fiance, the person I'm marrying, my parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, ward members. There was a room full of people, and not one person had told me what I was going to be doing, the covenants I was going to be making, what I was going to be participating in, and I was angry.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Which covenants disturbed you or made you angry?

Lori Young [00:16:48] Well, the whole thing, in my opinion, is extremely culty. I mean, it's weird, right? I couldn't believe. Like, I'm sitting there and I'm like, I can't believe my parents do this. Like, this is so weird.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Like, the clothing. And y' all can Google the clothing. Clothing. The women, when you were going through, the women were wearing veils.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:05] Yes.

Lori Young [00:17:05] Men were what, wearing the baker's hats or whatever. Yeah. You look over at my husband and I'm like, pillsbury Doughboy, what is going on?

Margi Dehlin [00:17:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] With aprons.

Lori Young [00:17:15] Yeah. So the clothing. And then, of course, you know, there's signs, tokens, like, weird things you're doing together, repeating things together, passwords, you learn about. None of this in mainstream Mormonism, because, of course, everyone's under covenant not to talk about it. So there's no informed consent. I mean, you go through there, and at the beginning, they say if anyone feels like they can't go through this or live up to the covenants they're going to make at the altars of the temple this day, you can get up and leave now. Well, that's at the beginning. You have no idea what you're going to be doing.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:50] That's right.

Lori Young [00:17:50] And so there's no informed consent whatsoever. And by the time you start into it, I mean, you can't get up and leave. My whole family was there. I mean, aunts, uncles, ward members. I was getting married in two weeks.

Lori Young [00:18:04] I wanted to leave. But you really can't. So to answer your question, the things that bugged me most, I hated how they separate in the men and women. So you sit on opposite sides. Right. But then paying attention to every word, which I did at the time. They have changed this now, but at the time, women covenanted to hearken to the counsel of their husband, as their husband hearkened to the counsel of God.

Lori Young [00:18:37] And I sat there and I'm like, oh, my gosh. So I have no direct link to God. Everything for me has to go through my husband and then to God. That's it. There's no. That was it. And I was so mad. I was so mad because I'm like, I can't do anything without a guy. You know, it has to go through the guy. The guy gets to talk to God. They're holy enough to talk to God. I am not. I have to go through a mountain.

Lori Young [00:19:06] And that infuriated me. And then there's a part in the temple ceremony called the true order of prayer. And this is where a group of people go to the front. They stand in a circle, they do all the signs and tokens, which is super weird.

Lori Young [00:19:23] And then they pray that the temple worker prays directly to God. And it's like, you're talking directly to God. Well, before they start that, they ask all the women in the room to veil their faces. I. I was so angry because for me, I'm like, why am I veiling my face? Am I not clean enough for God to see me? Because, like, in the true order of prayer, that's when you're addressing God. Right. And for some reason, I have to cover my face and the men don't.

Lori Young [00:19:54] So does that mean, like, I'm so impure, I'm so dirty, I'm so horrible, God can't see my face? Or does that just mean when we talk to God, I need to disappear and that those two things just made me so angry?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Yeah.

Lori Young [00:20:11] So, yeah. So I left that day, and it's the first time I'd ever sworn to my husband, really. We walked out the temple doors, and I looked at him and I said, what in the hell was that?

John Dehlin [00:20:21] Whoa. I was so mad, because I do think those feelings. We've interviewed a lot of people on Mormon stories that didn't like the temple ceremony. Pretty much almost all very, very, very few people in the 19 of interviews I'd done say I love the temple. Most were disturbed by it.

Lori Young [00:20:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] But very few felt like they were safe. Not just in terms of how it might be received, safe to criticize it, but even they didn't feel safe in front of God to vocalize that they were disturbed with it. So they just. It's sort of like that blame reversal. It must be me. I. I must need to work harder, go harder, because surely it can't be God created a bad temple ceremony.

Lori Young [00:21:05] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] Because it comes from God.

Lori Young [00:21:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] You know, so the fact that you vocalize that to the person, maybe you hadn't quite married him yet, or maybe you just married him, that's really unique and commendable, I think.

Lori Young [00:21:22] Yeah. Well, I'm pretty honest. I say.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:24] I say What?

Lori Young [00:21:25] I think a lot, which gets me into trouble.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] But, like, Margi just stopped going. Like, Margi. How many times did you go? In the 25 years we were active in the church, did you choose to go to the temple?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:36] Yeah, I think I went maybe twice. Really?

Lori Young [00:21:39] Oh, I'm so jealous. I'm so jealous. Because, you know, you talked about the release, study, presidency, enemy and the psych ward. I mean, of course there was a lot more going on with that, but the temple was a big contributor to that because what we did is we ended up going every month for the next 20 years. We went every single month.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Lori Young [00:21:58] Which really damaged me so much. I'm still healing from it. But so, yeah, so I talked to my husband, I talked to my mom. I considered, like, calling out the wedding. I just. I'm like, I can't do this. Like, I don't believe this. I talked to my mom. She set up an appointment with me with the temple president's wife, the temple matron at the Logan Temple. So I met with her and she said all the normal stuff, right? It is different, but it's, you know, it's of God. You just need to pray about it. You just need to read your scriptures, try harder. It'll get more comfortable over time, you know, all the normal things.

Lori Young [00:22:37] So I loved my husband. I wanted to get married. I didn't wanna call it off. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna double down. We're gonna do this. We're gonna go every month. It's gonna get easier, but this is what we're supposed to do. And so we got married. And, yeah, for the next 20 years, I went every single month. And I have to tell you, every time my husband. And I would be mad at my husband for at least two or three days after every time we went to the temple because he was a representation of the priesthood of men in the church. And I remember, if you recall, you sit on opposite sides, you know, And I'd be sitting there, and he'd look over at me, like, with these eyes, like, I'm so sorry.

Lori Young [00:23:16] And I'm looking at him like, fuck you. Sorry. Did I just say that? I didn't think that. But I was. I was so mad. I would look. And I know he was just trying to. Like, I know this is hard. And he was being sympathetic, which I appreciated, but he represented that to me. And I would look over at him like, I hate all this so bad. I hated it. It never got easier. You know, they say Keep going.

Lori Young [00:23:38] Keep doing everything you're supposed to do. It's gonna get easier. You're gonna feel that piece, you're gonna find that piece. No, that's right now I'm telling you, I went every month for 20 years because I didn't know not going was an option. Right. And it never got easier. It got, in fact, worse.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:57] Yeah, I can imagine.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] Like, you know, for my graduate work, I studied obsessive compulsive disorder and anxiety and phobias and stuff. And, you know, the answer to that is always exposure. In other words, if there's something that you're uncovered comfortable with, like being social, then be social, because that's how you, you know, get better.

Lori Young [00:24:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] You just do the thing that makes you uncomfortable. That's fine if the thing is healthy.

Lori Young [00:24:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] But it's not fine if the thing is unhealthy.

Lori Young [00:24:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] Because if you just keep doing the thing that's unhealthy, it just damages you.

Lori Young [00:24:29] Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] So I'm already getting why you might end up in a psychiatric unit if you're just not just uncomfortable with it, but you're making yourself do it regularly. That's torture.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:43] It's literally torture every month.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Psychological torture. Yeah. I'm so sorry.

Lori Young [00:24:47] It was. Yeah, so it was pretty awful. But, yeah. So over the next 10 years, at least, we continued doing everything a normal, very active Mormon family would. Full typing, attending the temple, saying yes to callings, all of that stuff. Had children. One thing that is a little bit interesting is I did divert from the regular Mormon woman path a little bit in that I always wanted to work, I always wanted to have a career. And so after I had my first child, I did try to stay home for about six months and hated it so much. And so I told my husband, I'm like, I just, I cannot do this. I can't do this. So we talked about daycare and things like that, but ultimately my husband decided to actually quit his job and he stayed home with our girls for 12 years and was a stay at home dad. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:49] Oh, what a shift.

Lori Young [00:25:51] So that was huge. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] You know, in Mormonism, that's a radical act.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:57] It is.

Lori Young [00:25:58] It was radical. And we'll get to the Stake Release lady presidency in a bit, but she had a lot of issues with that. So the woman I served with and I would often get asked when I would go to, like, midweek enrichment activities or you'd meet someone new in the war and they'd be like, oh, what does your husband do? It's the first question you get asked and I'm like, oh, well, he stays home with our girls and I work in tech. And I had more than once someone ask me if my husband was mentally disabled or physically disabled because why else would he be home? Yeah. Which I found so offensive. I mean, my husband's, you know, he's incredible. He's a college graduate, he was a social worker, he's a teacher now. But yeah, people would actually I was asked that question more than once.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:47] One thing that, can I just say that I think is so beautiful about that is that's what we want in marriage. And it sounds like you're both in this still highly conditioned place and your marriage is conditioned too. It's not just like this religious over overtone when it comes to spirituality or Sundays or family life. There's that in your own marriage. And what I love about it is clearly in some way you were differentiated enough to go needs based and fit, which I view as ideal. Like your partnershiping. It's like, here's what I'm good at, here's what. This isn't a great fit for my mental health. I actually feel really driven in this way.

Lori Young [00:27:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:31] Well, I don't. Or at this point. And really working together. But it seems like in some ways like a different marriage was born, let alone a family life in that moment that was your own.

Lori Young [00:27:45] Yeah, very much so. And I think that like you said, that partnership, the team being a team was key. Like we knew we wanted certain things for our girls and we worked together to make sure each of our needs were met while still taking care of the family.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:02] Yes.

Lori Young [00:28:02] And in a lot of ways that, that was very difficult in a lot of ways because I don't know if you recall, but around our early married life is when the proclamation on the family came out.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Tell our viewers who have never been Mormon, just what a problem or two might have been with that statement.

Lori Young [00:28:20] There were a problem or two. So the proclamation on the family, just for those who don't know, is it came out in the, I think the mid to late 1990s, I believe. And it was basically scripture doctrine that came out from the first presidency of the Church. Gordon B. Hinckley was the. At the time and it really was this statement on what the family should be, a God ordained family. And it was very focused around gender roles. It was very focused around the role of the mother, the father, the husband, the wife, and the nuclear family with a man, a woman, children. Right. And I really struggled with that. In fact, we both did because it very clearly states that the woman's role is to nurture. Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] The husband is to protect,

Lori Young [00:29:09] preside and provide.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Right. So it's the protect. I'm the boss, I'm the boss and I've got to go work to provide. And the woman's role, nurture the children.

Lori Young [00:29:21] I think it even says something around primary nurture of the children or providing those needs for your children. And so we actually did struggle with that because we're like, oh, are we like breaking commandments here? I remember talking to my dad about it because I saw my dad is very much a church authority and, and he was like, well, there is some wiggle room there. You guys are both still living everything within the church. And so it's okay. But we did struggle with that because everyone printed them out and hung them on their walls. This was big time. It was scripture. It could be with the Doctrine and Covenants.

Lori Young [00:29:59] And so we kind of struggled with that. But then also it made me angry as well because I never, and I mean, my kids will especially say this, I am not the nurturer in our family. That's not my gig. My husband's a first grade teacher. He's fantastic with children. I've always had a career. I've always been in academics and I mean, I feel like I'm a good mother and I love my children, but he's more the softer one in the family.

Lori Young [00:30:28] So, yeah, I just always felt like a black sheep. Like I just do not fit this mold and everything I'm being told I'm supposed to be, I am not that way and I don't really want to be that way. But like, this is my God ordained role, you know, so things like that. The proclamation on the family, I really hated that because, yeah, we had to choose to like not be perfect or not be what we were supposed to be.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] Yeah. And to make it even worse, historians have established that the genesis of the proclamation on the family was because the church was worried about the spread of gay rights. And the only way legally they were going to be able to oppose gay rights is if they had enshrined doctrinally some sort of declaration that established what a family and a legitimate marriage was so that then they could say this, forcing us to allow and support same sex marriage. It's against our doctrine. There wasn't enough in Mormon Scripture, in the Book of Mormon, in the Doctrine and Covenants to have sort of that legal basis. And so literally the proclamation of the family began as like a memorandum written by lawyers to justify anti same sex marriage legislation.

Lori Young [00:31:48] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] And then it's like, oh, we gotta formalize this so that then we have legal, you know, standing later. That's literally the genesis of the proclamation of the family.

Lori Young [00:31:58] Unreal. Yeah. Cause I think you're right. I think it starts with defining marriage as between one man and one woman.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] That's how it starts.

Lori Young [00:32:06] Which I also thought was super hypocritical because I'm like, oh, marriage is between one man and one woman.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] Why did Joseph Smith have 30 or bring him 50?

Lori Young [00:32:15] Yeah. Like, is the church really the entity to be talking about what a traditional marriage is? Because I don't really think they have that in their history for sure.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's just like, now the temple's eating at you, and the proclamation of the family's eating at you. The church culture's eating at you. This isn't shaping up well.

Lori Young [00:32:35] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] For your mental health.

Lori Young [00:32:36] No, no. So over this time. Yeah. I mean, things are going pretty good on the surface. Right. But these things are all eating at me. So it was around this time, around 2004. 2004, 2005 is when. Well, in my ward. I was in the ward Relief Society presidency at the time. And I was over the teachers, the instructors. And so when an instructor wouldn't show up, I would just have to impromptu teach, which was fine. I'm comfortable presenting, and things like that. So one Sunday, the Stake Relief Society president was visiting. Our instructor didn't show up. So I got up and taught. And anyways, I guess she was impressed and wanted to call me to be her counselor in the stakeholder Relief Society presidency.

What Is the Relief Society

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Can we just inform our Never Mormons, what is the Relief Society?

Lori Young [00:33:31] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] And how is it structured at a ward level? And then what does that mean for a stake? What does that mean at a stake level? Because 70% of our audience has never been Mormon.

Lori Young [00:33:42] Okay. Okay. Yeah. So the Relief Society is the women's organization within the church. So the structure of church when I attended was everyone met initially all together in one room for a sacrament meeting. And then you would split and the men would go to their priesthood meetings. The women would go to their Relief Society meetings on Sundays, right? On Sundays, yeah. So of course it's women's meetings. The lessons are going to be focused a lot around women and what they're supposed to be doing. Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] And so isn't that a homemaking night?

Lori Young [00:34:16] Yes. They called it. I don't know what they call it now. They changed it to enrichment, which was like A midweek activity used to be called homemaking. I don't know what they call it now, but yeah. So on Sundays, at the ward level, which is like a congregation level, your congregation.

Lori Young [00:34:31] So there will be 20, 30 women in a room, and you are instructed by other women. It's the only place, besides with the children, where typically women instruct. And then the stake level is basically in a stake, there's usually anywhere between 10 to 12, 13 wards or congregations that then roll up to the stake level. So if you're in, like a ward Relief Society presidency, you're kind of handling the women's organization within the ward under the direction of the priesthood. You never handle anything on your own. And then if you're in the stake one, you basically have all of the ward Relief Society presidencies kind of rolling up to the stake.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] Yeah. So a stake is like a Catholic diocese. It's multiple congregations.

Lori Young [00:35:17] Multiple congregations.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] And every presidency has a president. Relief Society president, and then two counselors.

Lori Young [00:35:23] Two counselors. And typically a secretary.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Yeah, a secretary. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] Wow. So that's like. That's like you're one of the top three, quote, highest ranking women in, you know, 10 to 12 congregations in your area. That's kind of a pretty significant level of responsibility for women.

Lori Young [00:35:43] For women.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:44] Yeah.

Lori Young [00:35:45] I was gonna say as high as you can go for women. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:48] And what area is the.

Lori Young [00:35:49] This. This is in West Jordan, Utah.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:51] So now we're in West Jordan.

Lori Young [00:35:52] Yeah, we're in West Jordan, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] So it's Salt Lake City Valley, west side.

Lori Young [00:35:56] Yes, yes. Very highly concentrated Mormon there. Yeah. So. And yeah, so within the. Within the stake, the one thing I'll point out also for never Mormons is the Relief Society. Although they have their own Relief Society president and counselors, it's always under the direction of the priesthood leaders. So no decision can be made by the Relief Society president without approval from the stake president, who is a man.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:26] Right. You have to. Have to clarify. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:28] So if Relief Society president wants to select her own counselors, can she just select her own two councilors?

Lori Young [00:36:34] No, she can provide suggestions or recommendations to the stake president. Then they have to approve it.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Yeah. Right.

Lori Young [00:36:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] Do you control your own budget?

Lori Young [00:36:44] No. No. And it's very small. Very small.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] Okay.

Lori Young [00:36:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Got it.

Lori Young [00:36:49] Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, it's all under the direction of the. The priesthood man.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Okay.

Lori Young [00:36:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Okay. So you got you. I mean, that's a real honor. Right. And maybe it's validation. You're a working mom, a working Mormon mom, and yet you're getting promoted to the church. Yeah, I'm just making stuff up.

Lori Young [00:37:06] No, no, you're accurate. You're accurate. And kind of like what I saw my role was, I can show that there's another way. Right. So I kind of saw it as, yeah, I am different. You know, I am different. I do have a career, and I'm also in this leadership position, so maybe I can impact the culture. Right, right. Maybe I can help promote some change and some more progressive ideas within this leadership position. That didn't happen.

Called to the Stake Relief Society Presidency

Margi Dehlin [00:37:38] I'm like, I so feel that.

Lori Young [00:37:40] And how does this play out? But that's what I thought. I thought. I mean, at the time, you think every calling is inspired by God. And so in my head, in my Mormon head, I thought, oh, maybe God put me here for a reason. To help open up minds and help to allow for more room within the role of women and help to influence.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:03] It's like, you feel like it's almost an endorsement of sorts.

Lori Young [00:38:08] Yes. Like, I was put here for a purpose, and this is my purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] Well, I can already tell this doesn't end well.

Lori Young [00:38:15] This does not end well. So the Stake Relief Society president. So this would have been like 2005, and so almost 20 years ago. And for anyone who was active in the Mormon Church back then, but the focus, there was a huge focus around modesty. The modest is hottest craze, you know.

Modesty Policies and Conflicts with Church Leadership

John Dehlin [00:38:40] And to a Mormon male leader, what does modesty mean?

Lori Young [00:38:45] Modesty is covering your garments, which means you're not wearing tank tops. You've always, you know, you've got to have sleeves. You've got to have stuff down to your knees, you know, no tight clothing. It's very much focused around what they can see of your body.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] And these are, I'm sure, rules for men, correct?

Lori Young [00:39:05] No, I mean, their garments need to be covered, too. But I mean, like, when did you have a talk on modesty? Yeah, exactly. And it was this huge focus for women, and it was around this time, too, that stores like Siegel Book and Tape in Utah. It's a store here in Utah. Mormon store. They started selling, like, the. And then the Downey's tees that they started selling, like, these cap T shirts that have these cap sleeves, you know, and everything, because. And they would have, you know, modest as hottest. Modest clothing for, you know, teenagers. Modest bathing suits. Yeah, it was kind of a craze then. Yeah, it's not so much that way anymore. I have noticed, as I've seen pictures of people wearing bikinis now who are active in the church that was not a thing back then. No, like that was. If you wore a bikini back then, you were not.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] It's still that way in many parts of Mormonism.

Lori Young [00:39:57] Really?

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Lori Young [00:39:59] Which is insane. Yeah. But yeah. So for this Stake Relief Society president, she was crazy, by the way, but she was obsessed with modesty. Obsessed for grown women. We are talking grown adult women, Margi,

John Dehlin [00:40:17] and I call them grown ass women.

Lori Young [00:40:18] Grown ass women? Yes. Grown ass women being told how to dress to activities. And then that also extended down to the young women's. She also thought, because young women who, for those who don't know, it's between the ages of 12 and 18 in the church, she thought, because they will be going to Relief Society, they were also under her purview. And so she would have us meet with the Stake Young Women's president.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:47] Interesting.

Lori Young [00:40:48] And that would be the topic of conversation, which would be modesty. So we not only focused on for the grown ass women, but also for the young women and the girls in the stake as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:00] Did that strike you as unusual that you were meeting with young women, the young women's leaders, too, and trying to.

Lori Young [00:41:09] Yeah, yeah. Cause I thought, why?

Margi Dehlin [00:41:11] Seems very unusual.

Lori Young [00:41:12] They have their own presidency. They have their own leadership. We're like, our calling is the women.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:17] Yeah.

Lori Young [00:41:18] You know, but we even went like, we went to girls camp and everything as the Stake Relief Society president, so.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:24] Interesting. I have not ever heard of that.

Lori Young [00:41:26] Very weird. Very weird. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] And can you give us an example, one or two examples of how the Stake Relief Society president would police grown women in terms of their clothing?

Margi Dehlin [00:41:37] Yes.

Lori Young [00:41:37] Yes. So we had several meetings, and this was the topic of most of our meetings that always came up. So the things that would bother her is she would talk a lot about women who wore denim to church. A denim skirt or a denim jumper, as that was not okay. And then she also. Her big thing was also nylons or like pantyhose tights. And at the time, in the summer, of course, I didn't wear, you know, you could wear sandals and a skirt. And she actually pointed me out one time that I did not have my legs. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:14] This really is next level.

Lori Young [00:42:16] Oh, like handmaid's tell next level. And one time I asked her, I said, why do I need to wear nylons? Like, why is that important to you? They're hot. And she's like, well, we meet with the priesthood a lot and it's not comfortable for them to see your bare legs. Yeah. And I'm like, direct skin. Yeah. So during this time I'm getting increasingly frustrated and, like, very, you know, my inner feminist is just screaming. And so I would challenge her in meetings, which she did not like. Right. The other members of the presidency kind of just didn't say anything. You know, I was the youngest one out of the presidency at the time, in my 30s, early 30s. And so those things bothered her. And then she started talking about women wearing capris, like, you know, Kathleen.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:10] So the garments actually are covered with capris?

Lori Young [00:43:13] Completely. The garments are completely covered with capris. But for some reason, she had this issue with capris being worn to the midweek activities. Not even to church. You know, not to church, to the midweek activities. So these are the things she kind of focused on.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Capris are just like pants that narrow to the ankle, right?

Lori Young [00:43:33] Yeah, exactly. Or they come.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:34] They can.

Lori Young [00:43:35] Yeah, mid calf. Like mid calf, but cover the garments.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] And she didn't like Caprice?

Lori Young [00:43:40] No, she thought they were immodest.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:42] So how did this affect, like, what was the trickle down to this? Because she can have issues with all of these things. Right. Or personal opinions or preferences. How did this actually affect, like, was it. Did it start appearing in lessons? Did she want it, like, what was the trickle down?

Lori Young [00:44:01] Yeah, so it did start appearing in lessons, like when we visited Stakes or visited Wards. Excuse me. And she wanted us to focus on that. And then when it really came to a head is she decided we needed to implement a policy, an actual policy from the stake with a dress code for church and for the midweek enrichment activities.

Lori Young [00:44:31] And this policy was restricted women from wearing, of course, tank tops and capris and shorts to the midweek activities, and then requested that they always wear nylons, avoid denim on Sundays. And so she talked about how we're going to present this policy, and so I challenged her. And I even brought, like, a couple scriptures from the Book of Mormon that talked about, you know, I can't remember what they are now, but accepting people as they are and, like, that's not very Christlike. We should just be glad that people are coming to the activities. We should make them feel welcome, make them feel comfortable. No matter what they're wearing.

Lori Young [00:45:12] Doesn't matter. They're there. They're choosing to show up. Like, we should show them love. We shouldn't focus on this. And she just didn't want to hear anything even. I remember coming one time, I was so nervous. I'd even, like, prepared scriptures and, like, quotes from prophets to share about inclusivity and making a warm place for people, you know, because I'M like, I'm going to get her to change her mind on this using doctrine.

Lori Young [00:45:38] And she just would not be deterred. So one meeting, she comes and she says, okay, we've got this policy. I've got it typed up. And she brought the letter, and she says, I've got the Stake Presidency's signature on it, because everything has to be done with the priesthood, right?

Lori Young [00:45:55] And what we're going to do, she went to Kinko's and got thousands of copies of the letters printed. And each member of the presidency was to go to four wards, because we had 12 wards or congregations in the stake at the time. We were each to go to four wards in the Relief Society meeting and present. Read the letter and present it to the women.

Lori Young [00:46:19] I was like, I was sick about this. Like, my anxiety was sky high. I was already questioning things. The proclamation on the family hating the temple, and then this experience and just going, I don't. I don't understand how this is, like, of God. Like, God's supposed to be loving and accepting and like, Jesus loved everyone, right? He hung out with the sinners. Like, why are we focusing on this?

Lori Young [00:46:47] But then I'm like, hey, I have to do this. Like, I committed to this calling. I said, yes, she's the leader. The Stake Presidency has signed the letter, so I need to go do my duty and present it.

Lori Young [00:47:03] So I went to my first ward, which happened to be in the steakhouse, which is where the Stake Presidency offices are, and I read the letter. My first ward, just, like, shaking. Like, I felt like I was gonna throw up, you know, because I knew it was wrong.

John Dehlin [00:47:17] In Sacrament meeting?

Lori Young [00:47:19] No. In Relief Society meeting. Yeah. In Relief Society meeting, yeah. So I'm reading it, and I just feel wrong. Like, my. Inside, my soul, my insides are just screaming. Like, this is like they do when I go to the. You know, when I went to the temple, your insides are just this. This conflict, you know, of, like, I've got to do the right thing, but this is not right, you know? So I read the letter, and then women were asking questions, and I remember one woman raised her hand, and she's like, so you're telling me I can't wear capris to the. Like, the Wednesday activity? And I'm like, yes, this is. And I'm feeling like the biggest policy.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:59] Yeah.

Lori Young [00:47:59] Like, what is this? You know? And so after. And then I sat through the meeting and the whole. Through the rest of the meeting, you know, it was like 45 minutes. I just. I felt like I was going to puke And I decided, I was right there in the Stake Building, and I'm like, I can't do this. Cannot do this. So I had my big box of Kinko's letters, and I went down to the Stake Presidency offices, and one of the counselors happened to be there. And I'm like, hey, can I speak to you for a minute? And he's like, sure, come on in. We went into an office and I set down my box of letters, and I said, look, I said, this policy, I don't agree with it.

Lori Young [00:48:37] I said, I just. I can't do this. I can't present this anymore. And I'm just going to give you these letters and do with it what you want, but I can't do it. And he said, I'm sorry, like, what are you talking about?

Lori Young [00:48:49] And I said, the modesty policy, like the dress code policy. We're presenting this in the Relief Societies. And he's like, well, I'm not familiar with that. And I'm like, well, your signature's on the paper. And so I pulled out the paper and handed it to him, and he reads it and he goes, oh, I wasn't aware of this.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] She forged his signature somehow or got permission to put the presidency signatures.

Lori Young [00:49:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Oh, wow.

Lori Young [00:49:18] So he's like, oh, well, I actually wasn't aware of this, so thanks for bringing it down. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. And I'm like, what is going on?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:28] Yeah, bet.

Lori Young [00:49:29] So she, it turns out she had had their signatures on other things from the stake, and she had just cut and pasted them onto the letter. She had the letterhead.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:40] Saving them time.

Lori Young [00:49:42] Yes, yes. And, you know, I don't know if she had spoken with and thought she'd gotten their consent or. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:50] But then wouldn't he have known at least about it?

Lori Young [00:49:53] Right, right.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:54] Maybe not the signature, but he would have known that it was happening. The content of the letter.

Lori Young [00:49:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] I mean, honestly, it's more likely that he approved it in some way than that she just totally forged his signature. But it is possible, right?

Lori Young [00:50:07] Yeah. Maybe they had discussed it in passing at a meeting, or maybe it had been an agenda item. I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] And then by you saying you didn't like it, it made him feel like, I gotta backtrack.

Lori Young [00:50:20] Could be, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:21] Cause this is dumb, but I was just supporting my leader.

Lori Young [00:50:24] Who knows?

John Dehlin [00:50:25] Trying to support my leader. Yeah.

Lori Young [00:50:26] So then it turns out. So then at that point, between the presidency and the two counselors, we visited like, five wards. So then they had to do a retract, which the Church is really great at, like, with the 2015 policy. Side note, they had the bishops go to all the Relief Societies where this had been presented and retract it.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:48] Oh.

Lori Young [00:50:51] Because it had been done in my ward. And so one week I'm sitting in my ward and the bishop comes and says, now, a few weeks ago, a member of the Stake Relief Society presidency came and presented this policy and read this letter. And we're just letting you know that that was just, you know, there was maybe some miscommunication there. We don't really have that policy. We welcome everyone. We want you to. As you are.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:15] That does signify a little bit of, like, someone went rogue. A bit.

Lori Young [00:51:19] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So then I'm like, well, this is all very interesting. So then. But the most interesting thing is two weeks later, I got called in by the Stake President and I got released from the Stake Presidency.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] Whoa.

Lori Young [00:51:40] I was the only one.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:41] You were the only one.

Lori Young [00:51:42] Premature release. Yeah. I'd only been in there a year and a half. The other counselor and the secretary stayed in and the president stayed in as well for the next three years.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:51] That is fascinating.

Lori Young [00:51:53] Yeah. So that experience combined with my other issues and.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] Did the president ever, like, call you out or say, this hurt my feelings or like, never even spoke to me again ever, ever? Like, to this day, you haven't spoken with her.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:08] Wow. No, that experience, yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt what that did to you, but I

Lori Young [00:52:14] just want to be clear. Yeah, yeah, it was awful.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] It's kind of that passive aggressive thing where in Mormonism you want to avoid conflict because we're taught contention is of the devil. That's somewhere in the scriptures. And so that's interpreted as, no, don't be direct if you're her or direct, don't be direct. So we gotta cut her knees from under her inside conversations and she's just been released.

Lori Young [00:52:38] Well, let's just pretend like this never happens. Everyone go on your. Nothing's happening over here. Go on your merry way, and we'll just pretend like this little blip never happened.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] But because Mormons believe that God is making the callings and making the releasing from callings.

Lori Young [00:52:53] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Right.

Lori Young [00:52:55] So then at this point, I'm first of all already irritated with all these things that have been bothering me in regard to patriarchy, in regard to modesty, in regard to controlling women. Right. Controlling grown ass women. All of these things are really starting to bug me. And then this happens. And then I'm starting to question God, because all this time, I believe that God's in control. Right. The church is led by God, the priesthood leaders. The prophet talks to God. The priesthood leaders work under the direction of God. And so I. This whole time, I had been trying to find my meaning in this calling. Like, God wants me here for some reason. Right. He wants me here to be this other voice to represent other women. And then when I was essentially, like, fired.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:49] Yeah. When you were using your voice, when you were actually acting in alignment with that, you essentially got fired.

Lori Young [00:53:58] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:58] Yeah.

Lori Young [00:53:59] So then I'm questioning this whole thing is just maybe made up. Like, maybe God has absolutely no say in any of this. Yeah.

Stress, Panic Attacks, and Mental Health Struggles

Margi Dehlin [00:54:13] Can I ask during this time how your, like, your stress levels, like, how it impacted you to go through this? Yes.

Lori Young [00:54:23] Good thing to bring that up, because. Very high. It was around this time, around this Stake Relief Society presidency time, when I had my first panic attack. And at the time, I had no idea. Like, I. You know, mental health was not talked about in our family at all, even though it's a huge problem now. I know.

Lori Young [00:54:46] But it was not discussed at all. And in the context of the church at that time, mental health was very much, you know, God can fix everything, like counseling or therapy wasn't a thing. And I think kind of discouraged because then you're leaning on the arm of flesh rather than relying on God.

Lori Young [00:55:08] And so when I started having panic attacks, horrible panic attacks, I had no idea what they were. So I thought it was a medical. You know, I thought I had a heart issue or something like that. And so for the next, like, five or six years, I went to I don't know how many doctors or specialists, because I thought I had a physical problem, physical health problem. I did not understand or know what generalized anxiety disorder was or what panic disorder was. And so, yeah, that's when it all started. And it. It got very bad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] It's like five years of undiagnosed panic disorder.

Lori Young [00:55:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] Triggered by this experience.

Lori Young [00:55:49] Yes. And very expensive medical bills wasted trying to figure out what was wrong.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] And our bodies aren't made to have this cortisol and this adrenaline constantly flowing through our veins. If you don't strike at the core problem and fix it through mental health services, then all these autoimmune disorders and fatigue and Epstein Barr and all those things can be. A snowball effect can emerge because your body's just not made to have continual

Margi Dehlin [00:56:23] panic attacks like nervous system activation all the time.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Right?

Lori Young [00:56:26] Yes. Because you're constantly living in that fight or flight or fight or flight space. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] It'd be like having to be handcuffed to your abuser for five years.

Lori Young [00:56:36] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] Without resolving the abuse.

Lori Young [00:56:39] Right, Exactly. Yeah. And so during this time, I'm still attending the temple every month. I'm still exposing myself to these things that are, like, continuously damaging me over and over and over again.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:54] That's so heartbreaking.

Lori Young [00:56:57] Yeah. So during this time when I'm starting to have these mental health issues, we're still active in the church. We're still going to the church. We're still. You know, I got put back in as a Relief Society teacher.

Lori Young [00:57:10] We're still believing, but I'm starting to have tons of questions, like, questioning everything. I'm questioning Joseph Smith, I'm questioning God, just, like, the very nature of God. And I was actually, like, reading in my journal in preparation for this, and I'm like, the kind of 10 years. There were about nine years between when I got released from the Stake for the Society presidency and when I actually went to the psychiatric institute hospital.

Lori Young [00:57:40] But over this time, I'm having this undiagnosed panic disorder, generalized anxiety, having constant panic attacks. Okay. So it's affecting my health. And at the same time, I'm struggling. I'm grappling with, like, God. Who is God? Like, I don't.

Lori Young [00:57:57] I don't understand the nature of God. And so I'm, like, poring over the scriptures, trying to figure out, like, a version of God or a story of God that I can be comfortable with. And at the same time, I'm starting to read feminist literature. So I discover someone named Nicholas Kristoff. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's. He's a.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:22] Half the sky.

Lori Young [00:58:23] Yes. Half the sky. Yes. So I think he was a columnist for the New York Times, but he wrote this book called Half the Sky, and it's basically about kind of the plight of women internationally. And I watched the documentary on pbs, and I read the book, and I'm like, how can there be a God? So basically, God created women to suffer. And, you know, going to the temple, they do the creation story, and it talks about women and their role. I mean, first of all, Eve does not speak, Right?

John Dehlin [00:59:03] Well, women are created from the rib. Women are created. Eve was created from the rib of Adam.

Lori Young [00:59:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] From his side.

Lori Young [00:59:10] Yeah, exactly. To be his helpmate, you know? And then she's clearly not supposed to talk, because Eve does not talk. Right. She just stands there and looks beautiful and Dumb, you know.

John Dehlin [00:59:20] Well, God talks to Adam.

Lori Young [00:59:21] Yeah, yeah. And then Adam could talk to Eve, you know, but. And then also, I can't remember where I was going with this, but. Oh, essentially also in the temple, it talks about how. And if you read in Genesis and the Pearl of Great Price, it talks about how one of the punishments of Eve is to have suffering in delivery or childbearing. Right.

Lori Young [00:59:43] And so I started thinking about. And then like reading half the sky and reading the plight of women internationally. And when you even learn about simple things like the impact that menstruation has on women culturally in other countries, it gives women the inability to go out and get educated, to go to school, to be able to be independent from men. So automatically, just that, just menstruation puts women in this subservient position. And I'm like, well, who created that? God did. So God hates women. So for a long time I'm just like, God hates women. Clearly.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Yeah. If y' all forgive me, just indulge me for a second. There's this early YouTube channel when YouTube was first coming out called Mr. Deity. And there's an actor that plays God and then there's an actor that plays like his secretary. And the setting is he's up in heaven and God's trying to plan human existence and God's trying to figure out what terrible things he's going to allow and not allow. And so God's like dictating and his secretary's like taking notes and it's like, well, we have like conjoined twins, you know, And God's like, yeah, let's have conjoined twins. Well, will we have like famines? Yeah, let's do the famines.

Lori Young [01:01:02] Why not?

John Dehlin [01:01:03] Let's throw them in. You know, if you believe in an all powerful and all loving God, then he's got, he's got choices.

Lori Young [01:01:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:12] And so why would he make like, not only make childbirth deadly for women.

Lori Young [01:01:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] But do it, but frame it as a punishment for Eve. Whatever. Eve did what she was supposed to do. And then women are all gonna like risk their lives every time they have a baby because God's like, well, that's what you get. Cause Eve did that thing that one time.

Lori Young [01:01:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] Like it, you know, or like menstruation. God could have like said, yeah, no, we won't do the bleeding.

Lori Young [01:01:42] There's gotta be another way.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] But that's what God did. It's one really interesting example of like the problem of suffering, you know, and the problem of evil.

Lori Young [01:01:55] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] In the world. Yeah.

Lori Young [01:01:57] Yeah, exactly. That's so true. And when you start to think about God that way, you're like, he's a pretty bad person. So those are the questions I was starting to ask. And I was like, all the. Kind of. All the things you mentioned, okay, if God, you learn that God is all powerful and all loving. And I'm like, well, that's not possible. That's not possible. Because if he's all powerful, he certainly is not all loving because there's a lot of stuff he could be stopping or changing. And if he's all loving, there's no way he's all powerful because he would stop those things. So I'm like, this just cannot be. So at this point, I kind of am even going past Mormonism. I maybe even stopped believing in Mormonism and now even going on to God, right?

John Dehlin [01:02:52] Straight to God. Do not pass go, do not collect.

Lori Young [01:02:55] Exactly, exactly. But I was also really questioning a lot about Mormonism as well. And at this time, you know, I'm having tons of questions, tons of anxiety and all this, and my husband is still fully believing, 100% right. But we've always been super honest in our marriage. So I'm asking, you know, I'm asking him all these questions. And I remember one specific night we were on a walk, and at this point, I was thinking about, like, Mormonism and the temple and eternal marriage. Because that's why, you know, people cling to the church, I think, is because they want the. That eternal family, right? They want to see their family after they die.

Husband's Faith Crisis and Family Tensions

Lori Young [01:03:33] They want the eternal marriage. And so that's something that he really clung to. But I remember walking with him and saying, okay, like, your grandma, who is not a member, his dad's a convert, so his grandma's not a member of the church. And my husband tried to convert her multiple times. Like, has sent her Book of Mormons, has, you know, given her literature, like, told her about the church. She's attended church, but never joined, never chose to join.

Lori Young [01:03:59] And so his grandpa died a few years previous. And I said, so your grandma, who you love more than anyone in the world, his grandma's his hero. And I said, so you're telling me according to the doctrine that you believe of the church, your grandma is not only not going to go to heaven, you're never going to see her again, she's never going to see her husband again.

Lori Young [01:04:23] And she's probably going to go to the lowest level because she has been presented the gospel and offered the gospel and she denied it, which, like, everyone Gets a chance to hear the gospel. Right. But if they deny it, that's it. You had a chance to hear it and you denied it. So I said, according to what you believe with the doctrine of the church, your grandma, who is the best person you know, the person you love more than anyone you know, other than me and your kids, she's going to be punished. She's never going to see you again or her husband again because she turned down the gospel.

Lori Young [01:04:55] That's the doctrine you believe in. And he's like, well, I mean, you know, God will work it out. Like those things will all be worked out. And I'm like, well, if God's going to work it out, then why doesn't he work it out now? You know? So all of these things you can see, all these questions.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] See, I'm Mormon God, and I'm Mormon prophet, thinking that. That. Thinking. That's why women are veiling their faces in the temple. That's why women are hearkening to their husbands. Because you, Laurie, are asking way too many questions that are making me uncomfortable.

Lori Young [01:05:26] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] So be invisible and let's keep you a little bit on the quiet side. Is that okay?

Lori Young [01:05:32] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] Because those questions are making me uncomfortable.

Lori Young [01:05:34] Yeah. So if we can make you invisible, that would be the best thing here.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:37] And mute. So just cover yourself up and mute. And make you busy, busy, busy, busy in survival, that you cannot reflect and think, that is not what we want. Because it's harder to control you.

Lori Young [01:05:48] Exactly. That's gonna help no one here. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:52] Can I ask you about. You were saying that through all this time you're having panic attacks, that you're experiencing panic attacks just because my experience with panic attacks is that they're terrifying and extremely visceral. A visceral experience. Would you mind just sharing a little bit? So I'm interested in connecting what it was like for you to the experience of a panic attack, what it felt like for you and how often it's happening.

Lori Young [01:06:29] Yeah, absolutely. So they started out where I would only have them once or twice a month.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] Only. Can I just say I'm sorry? Panic attack. You feel like you're going to die.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:42] Yes. You do. Literally, like, so once, twice a month.

Lori Young [01:06:45] Yes. That's only two months.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] It's just once or twice a month. It started only because it got twice a month that I want to die.

Lori Young [01:06:50] It got much worse. That's why I only said so. Yeah, but it. But it's horrible. I mean, you do feel like you're going to die, so. And they'll come on for no reason. So a lot of times mine were nocturnal, so I would wake up in the panic, and your heart is just pressure on you. It feels like you're having a heart attack. So you have pressure on your chest, your heart is just racing, like, sweating. And then you. It's like existential dread. Like you know you're going to die, and you just know you're going to die, and you get all numb and tingly. Like. Like it's very physical. It's a very physical manifestation. So I went to the ER multiple times. I'm sure I can't tell you how much money we wasted on this.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] Yeah, because you think you're having a heart attack.

Lori Young [01:07:43] Yeah. So like multiple times a month. Oh, yeah. Like, My husband called 911 multiple times. I've ridden in the ambulance multiple times, you know, and then after I started having them for several months, I'm like, okay, this clearly isn't a heart attack, so we're not going to call 911. But we still would drive to the ER a lot. I went to cardiologists. I had all the exams there, you know, echocardiograms and all that stuff. My heart's perfectly fine. So this goes on for about three years. And it was horrible. I mean, so at this time, I'm increasingly getting more depressed. It's interrupting my work life because, like, I'm not sleeping, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:23] And did you have anxiety, too, about having one? Because then you're so afraid that you're gonna just be blindsided out of nowhere, out of nowhere.

Lori Young [01:08:32] So, like, at work, I presented a lot, and in front of groups of people, which was never a problem. But then when I started having the panic attacks, I'm like, what if I have one when I'm up there? Which did happen one time, which was horrific. So then you start having anxiety about the anxiety. Right. And it starts disrupting your life completely. So this went on like this for, like, three years. And, like, I've written about it, and it's. It was a bad time. It was a bad time. And I, I, it was not a good time in my life. I don't think I was a good. I don't think I was good for anyone during that time. I still have my career and everything.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:13] Did anyone ever. At the ER or at the, like, your cardiologist, did anyone ever bring up panic attacks or panic disorder?

Lori Young [01:09:24] That was the weirdest thing. My husband and I were just talking about this the other day. So this went on for three years? No one ever talked to me about anxiety, about panic disorder, about anything. Finally, I went to a nurse practitioner. So I got a new doctor, and I couldn't see the doctor, so I saw the nurse practitioner. And I remember her name is Susan. I remember it clear as day. She does all the exam and everything with me. And she comes in and she kind of sits down in the chair next to me, and she says, what you have is generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder. She goes, this is a mental health issue. And I had never been told that. And she's like, you really need to go to therapy. And that was the first time that that. That had been presented to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:18] And how many years into your experience was that?

Lori Young [01:10:20] We were probably three years.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:23] Yeah.

Lori Young [01:10:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] And it took a woman to figure that out. Yes. Yeah.

Lori Young [01:10:27] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:28] I mean, that's really something.

Lori Young [01:10:29] Exactly. And I'd been to the er. It's embarrassing to even say how many times I'd been to the er.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:35] Well, it makes sense.

Lori Young [01:10:36] Yeah. Yeah. So good for her. And I'm super grateful to her. So Susan Greenhalgh, I think was her name. She was fantastic. But anyways, so I actually did start to see a therapist, which was wonderful, because I started to learn what was going on inside my head.

Lori Young [01:10:59] And she was so great because she wasn't Mormon. So I started saying, she's the only person besides my husband that I had shared my doubts with. My doubts about the faith and the things I was really, really struggling with, like the nature of God and what I believe and, you know, all of this. And so I started talking to her about that, and I started telling her how painful the temple was for me.

Lori Young [01:11:28] And she said, okay, well, we're going to teach you how to deal with these panic attacks. But the first thing we've got to do is we've got to start removing the things from your life that are causing them.

Lori Young [01:11:40] And so she's like, okay, your job. You can't remove your job. So we're gonna have to learn coping mechanisms around that. That's a source of stress. Kids, family, you can't remove those. So we're gonna learn how to deal with that.

Lori Young [01:11:54] But this temple thing, you can remove. And I'm like, well, I actually can't, because you kind of commit. You're supposed to go once a month. That's what you need to do to get to the celestial kingdom. That's what I was taught. You've got to go once a month. That's what my parents taught. That's what you've got to do.

Lori Young [01:12:13] And so I'm like, well, really, I can't. And she said, okay, well, what parts of it bother you the most? So I talked about the veiling of the face and the hearkening and all that. And she's like, are there other things you can do there? Can you go to the temple and do other things? And I said, yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] Initiatories.

Lori Young [01:12:28] That's what I did. I'm just not better.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] I mean, look, not when we went through. You're wearing the.

Lori Young [01:12:35] That's when you had the open. Naked on.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:38] Someone touch you.

John Dehlin [01:12:39] People touching you completely naked on the sides.

Lori Young [01:12:42] Yeah. Totally open. You're, like, trying to hold the sides when you're walking, so it doesn't open.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:47] Yeah. Sort of like change your. You're just changing the problem.

Lori Young [01:12:51] Yeah. Yeah. So. But at least they touch you on your breast.

John Dehlin [01:12:55] They touch you on your groin. Like it's with the oil, and you're naked and.

Lori Young [01:12:59] Yeah, it's weird. And they're. They're blessing you to have, you know, multiply and replenish the earth and blah, blah, blah. So anyways, but that's what I traded it for, because at that point, I couldn't. Like, it just wasn't an option in my family to not. I mean, all six kids endowed. You know what I mean? Like, everyone perfect. It just was not an option to not do those things, you know, or to say no or to not live up to your covenants. And so I'm like, okay, I won't do the endowment, but I'll still go every month and do the initiatories or the ceilings.

Lori Young [01:13:33] So I did that for a couple more years where I stopped going to the endowment, but I did the other. The other things you can do in the temple helped a little bit, but clearly. Clearly not enough. So. Yeah, but she was great. Yeah, but the panic attacks didn't really stop at that point.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:54] At least you're trying stuff.

Lori Young [01:13:56] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:58] But it's.

Lori Young [01:13:58] Cause I still wasn't dealing with the core. I wasn't, I guess, ready to deal with the core issue yet.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Yeah.

Lori Young [01:14:04] Yeah.

Leaving the Church and Facing Suicidality

John Dehlin [01:14:05] All right.

Lori Young [01:14:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:06] So where did you go from there? Did you keep trying stuff?

Lori Young [01:14:09] So, yeah, I did. I actually got on medication at that time, which was good. Which was needed. And I would have good periods of time where, you know, panic would kind of go away, and I wouldn't have as many panic attacks and things like that.

Lori Young [01:14:24] But during this time, I'm still questioning everything. So we're still going to church, and, like, little things are bothering me, like, PEOPLE SING in the sacrament meeting, which is kind of like the general meeting for the church, people give talks. Just regular lay members of the congregation get up and give talks on various subjects. And things that people would say would start bugging me. And so I would get to the point where I would stand up and leave in the middle of sacrament meeting. I would walk out. I was asking my girls, I'm like, what's some of your memories of me in the church? And my oldest daughter is like, you walking out of sacrament meeting because you were so mad.

Lori Young [01:15:05] And it would mostly be around. There's so many little microaggressions around women in the church and the role of women. And they're just little things people say all the time. You know, roles, gender roles in the church are such a big deal.

Lori Young [01:15:23] Everyone's focused on what men are supposed to do, what women are supposed to do, what your divine roles are. I mean, you remember like in the Young Women's Organization, you have the. What were they called? The values, you know, divine worth and individual nature, choice and accountability, all these things. And so it's. It's like very focused on what you're supposed to be doing. So a lot of times lessons are given on that or talks are given on that. And those things really started to bug me. And then at the same time, I'm becoming probably like more and more feminist and understanding. Like, especially when you look at the plight of women outside of even this country, which this country is now going completely backwards.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:11] But.

Lori Young [01:16:11] But when you look like internationally, like reading this Half the Sky book, which by the way, I would totally recommend, and reading about the plight of women in other countries, it really is when you take women and between their menstrual cycle, pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding, it locks them down. Like, they can't. Because you're just. In our country, you're like, well, just if you're in a bad situation with a man, leave the situation, get educated, create a life for yourself. That is not an option internationally. In a lot of places, they don't have. Even in a lot of countries in Africa, they don't have menstrual products.

Lori Young [01:16:54] Once you start menstruating, you just stop going to school because you can't take a week off every month. Then it makes women to where they can't be educated, they can't provide for themselves. They have to be dependent on a man, and that's whatever man they can get, right? And then once you become dependent on a man, you're going to get pregnant. Because there's not birth control.

Lori Young [01:17:17] And then once you're pregnant, then you're stuck. That is your plight. And so then I kept going back to God, really, if God is real, he hates women. Like, everything he did was to punish women for something he told Eve to do.

Lori Young [01:17:37] So then I'm starting to get into these secular arguments in my head. It's like, okay, well, Eve had to partake of the fruit or else the whole plan of salvation wouldn't have started. But then she was punished for partaking of the fruit. And not only her, but all of us, but then she had to take the fruit or else. And then I'm like, this is ridiculous. This whole thing is ridiculous.

Lori Young [01:18:03] So I'm feeling that way, but at the same time, and this is where my anxiety just went out of control. My family is super important to me. So, like, my parents, my siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, et cetera, and everyone is very in and very active. And there is no room for questioning. Like, I couldn't discuss any of this with my mom, my dad, my siblings, no one. It was just my husband.

Lori Young [01:18:32] And then I'm like, okay, I don't want to. Like, I'm living inauthentically. And that was the core issue of my anxiety. I am living an unauthentic life. And at some point, that's gonna break. You can't do that forever.

Lori Young [01:18:48] And so I know. I don't believe. I know, I want to leave, but it was in inconceivable for me that I could do that because it would, like, it would break my mother. Because in the Mormon Church, as you know, your goal is to get, especially as a mother, as a woman, is to get your whole family to the celestial kingdom.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:12] It's kind of your. It's not only your main purpose, but it's your responsibility. Yes, it is. Absolutely. Like, if they don't make it, it's on you.

Lori Young [01:19:23] It's on you, right? It's on you 100%. And my mom carries that. She believes that. And so I knew if I left, I would be breaking that. And my parents did everything right. They followed every rule, they sacrificed everything. You know, they had all these callings. They always did the temple all the time. You know, like, they did everything right. And I'm like, this is her whole life's purpose. If I leave, it's gonna break the whole. It's gonna ruin everything.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:57] Are you basically saying that you're feeling like it's either your authenticity or you're breaking your mom's not only heart but like, you know, and that's kind of what you're. And for as long as you could, it feels like you chose to not disappoint, not break your parents heart to stay in line with the family thing until. Yeah, until.

Lori Young [01:20:25] Until you break. Yeah. So I had, I kind of had this plan for a while that I was going to stay in, meaning fully active, going to church every week, etc. Until my mom died. Because I couldn't. I'm like, I can't do this. Which was ridiculous because she was in her 60s at the time. So. But that's. For a while I thought what I was going to do.

Lori Young [01:20:56] But then during this time, like I talked about the panic attacks getting worse. So at this time I'm starting to not only have horrible anxiety, but panic attacks three to four times a week. So I am exhausted. I am trying to hold down my job, but not super successfully because I am so tired, I'm miserable. And then it starts to manifest itself physically as, you know it does. You know, it can be a very physical thing. And I started feeling like extremely sick.

Lori Young [01:21:31] So this was in 2014 and this started around the beginning of the year and then it progressively got worse and so around in like May. At that point I'm like, I can't do this anymore, but I can't break my mom, my family. My husband was fully supportive at that point of leaving cause he saw the impact it was having on me.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] But I'm like, did his beliefs change too at the time or do you even want to?

Lori Young [01:22:02] They were. Yes. Yes. So I was ahead of him. But I had asked questions for so long that he was starting to question everything as well.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:11] Got it.

Lori Young [01:22:13] So he's like, well, just, you know, we'll figure it out. And I'm like, I can't, I can't do it. There's no way out of this.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:20] Yeah. So you're feeling trapped.

Lori Young [01:22:22] Trapped. Yeah. So in May I was quite depressed and we actually ended up going to. It's called uni, but it's the University of Utah Neuropsychiatric Institute. It's basically a mental hospital hospital. And I just felt so hopeless and trapped that we actually went up there. But they evaluate you and because I didn't have like a specific suicide plan, so to speak, I didn't get admitted at that time.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] Yeah, that's. I mean usually when someone goes there, they've made an attempt.

Lori Young [01:23:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:01] And then it's like, what do we do with them? The hospital? You take them that or something like it yeah. The fact that you did it proactively was really good. And I want to encourage that. If you ever feel. Viewers, listeners, if you ever feel that trapped, that desperate, that's a good thing to just check yourself in or at least do the assessment.

Lori Young [01:23:21] Absolutely, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] Before you get to the point of actually making a plan and following through with the plan.

Lori Young [01:23:27] Yeah, definitely. And so now I'm going to talk a little bit about that. So I don't know if we want to give, like a trigger warning a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:34] Let's do that.

Lori Young [01:23:36] Because I'm going to go into detail about the process that happened. So if anyone.

John Dehlin [01:23:41] And suicidality.

Lori Young [01:23:43] Yeah. So if anyone's sensitive to that, just take.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:45] Can step away.

Lori Young [01:23:47] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So this was the summer of 2014. So during this time, I'm not only mentally very sick, but also physically very sick as well, because I was in pain. I had stopped eating, I was getting very little sleep. So I actually had to take a leave of absence. I had to do family medical leave from work because I just couldn't even function at work anymore. And that in and of itself was horrible and, like, horribly embarrassing because I've always been in leadership roles. I had a team, I managed. And I've always been like a student, like, top of the class, top type thing. Perfectionist a little bit. And so to just be completely falling apart and not even be able to manage my career was awful.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:38] It's like an identity crisis.

Lori Young [01:24:40] Completely. Completely. And so then we go into, like, the month of June, and June is when I just completely fell apart. So I'm having panic attacks frequently. And because of all this, I am incredibly depressed. Right. I can't. I'm not eating.

Lori Young [01:25:01] I just cannot figure out in my mind at the place I was so dark, I could not figure out how to get out. Like, I couldn't. It was not an option to keep living this way. It was not an option to leave.

Lori Young [01:25:18] And I just. I couldn't. I couldn't see a way out. And so I remember one really horrible night. I had not slept at all. And I had gone into the office and I had, you know, pills that I had from medications. And I'm like, I just. I have to be done with this. I can't, Like, I can't live like this.

Lori Young [01:25:42] I can't leave the church. I can't stay in the church. I just want to be done. It hurts so bad. I cannot describe the turmoil. Like, the pain is like nothing. I've never experienced anything like it since. And so I Actually called the suicide hotline because I didn't want to die, but I just wanted the pain to stop, you know, And I just couldn't figure out a way out.

Lori Young [01:26:23] So I called them. This was like three in the morning, and they really recommended that I go up to uni. So I woke up, my husband and I kind of explained the situation. And of course he was terrified, right?

Lori Young [01:26:39] And so he drives me up there, and I was terrified, too. I mean, everything you hear about, like, you know, the movies about a psych ward or mental hospital, I'm like, what's going to happen? Am I going to be, like, in a straight jacket? Am I going to be, like, tied down? Like, I had no idea what to expect, no clue.

Lori Young [01:26:58] And so he drives me up. They do the assessment, and I share, like, my plan and everything that I. I just. I want to die. Like, I can't do it. And so they actually admitted me, which turned out to absolutely save my life.

Lori Young [01:27:15] Because what it does is it provides you a pause where you don't have to worry about your responsibilities of your job, being a wife, being a mother, being a daughter, all of that. And it also provides you the help and skills you need to learn how to cope with the situation.

Lori Young [01:27:34] And so I had actually a really amazing psychiatrist up there. And I was reading. I requested my notes, my intake notes from the mental hospital. And it talks a lot about the church in it. And he was fantastic. And so he really just taught me how to not. I mean, it's impossible not to worry about things you can't control, like your mom. But really, you have to live your life for yourself.

John Dehlin [01:28:04] Imagine that.

Lori Young [01:28:05] I know. And that, like, making other people happy is not my responsibility.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:11] That's right.

Lori Young [01:28:13] You know, and it took. I was there for nine days with really intensive therapy, individual therapy, group therapy, probably medication. Yes, yes. And it was a wonderful experience. Like, I was so grateful. Like, I was so grateful to be there and to be getting that care. And then they bring your husband and your, you know, my husband and my kids into it as well. And he helped us make a plan on what the exit from the church was going to look like, how it was going to go.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:47] Wow, beautiful. Tangible, practical.

Lori Young [01:28:51] Yes. And so we had a plan and. Yeah, and then we followed that plan, and it wasn't super easy. So, like, I got out in July and I continued to. I taught a little primary class, which A primary class is children in the church, and it was my daughter's class, and the family wasn't quite ready to leave yet. So they still attended. I started volunteering at a hospital because I wanted to do something productive with my time on Sunday. So I would volunteer at a hospital during the morning, and then I would go teach my class at the end of the meeting. And the cat, they were great kids. And I stopped teaching lessons. We just sat on the floor and ate candy and talked about their weeks for the rest of the year, which was delightful. And they were such fun kids.

Resignation, Therapy, and Early Recovery

Margi Dehlin [01:29:40] We can relate, right, babe?

John Dehlin [01:29:42] Oh, yeah.

Lori Young [01:29:42] Yes. So not church approved. Not approved.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:45] Lessons, lessons, lessons. Not the point.

Lori Young [01:29:48] Yeah, exactly. But they were great kids, and I loved them. So we did that. And then at the end of the year, you know, we told our kids, who were 11 and 14 at the time, and we said, hey, look, if you guys want to keep attending, we'll be happy to support you. We'll be happy to take you. And both of my daughters were like, are you kidding me? We're not.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] Not.

Lori Young [01:30:12] We don't want to attend. They had no interest whatsoever. So then we just. Yeah, then we just stopped attending. So. Yeah, that's kind of. I talked a lot right there.

John Dehlin [01:30:26] No, you talked perfectly. And I mean, honestly, a way to distill what you just said is the illness was traditional orthodox Mormonism and the cure to your mental illness was leaving orthodox Mormonism or Mormonism altogether. I don't mean to be crass, but that 100%.

Lori Young [01:30:49] And not to say that I didn't learn things, because then I, of course, continued therapy, which was hugely helpful to learn how the brain works and how neural pathways had been built, that when I was triggered, my brain just automatically went to that place. So I learned about that. I learned about, like, mindfulness, being in the moment, meditation, experiencing joy, you know, So I learned a lot of things from the experience, too.

Lori Young [01:31:19] But as soon as I decided to leave and live my life authentically, and this is the hope I want to provide to people. And not to say it's not easy. You know, bad things have still happened in my life, but I had. After I got out of the hospital, I had a few panic attacks here and there through 2014. I have not had a panic attack since 2014.

Lori Young [01:31:44] Not one, knock on wood. But the peace, I cannot tell you. You know how when you're in the church and any Mormon will relate to this, you're told that the highest peace you can feel is in the temple, Right? You go to the temple, and it's such a place.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:03] It's heaven on earth.

Lori Young [01:32:04] It's heaven on. It's the closest thing to heaven you'll get the pinnacle and it is where you will feel true peace. I'll tell you where I felt true peace the first time I truly experienced Savasana with yoga. I'm like, oh, this is the peace they speak of. This is the piece they speak of. It's inside of you. It's inside of you. You know, it's not in the church, it's not in this God, it's not in this religion, it's not in the temple is something you build in yourself.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:37] Yeah.

Lori Young [01:32:38] But being self sufficient, within yourself emotionally is contrary to Mormonism, because Mormonism says you need this one true religion to be saved, to go to heaven, to find happiness. This is true and everlasting happiness. It's not taught to find it within yourself. And being taught that and like taking my own power back has been like the gift. You know, I think you've talked about the gift of the faith crisis. The gift, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:14] It's yourself, it's your own life.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:16] That's right.

Lori Young [01:33:17] That's the gift. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:19] Because that kind of got taken from you.

Lori Young [01:33:21] Yeah, yeah. So it's been pretty amazing.

John Dehlin [01:33:24] Yeah, man. I've got so. So I've got a couple things and then a question. So Maven is so good. She's been helping produce this episode. She wanted to remind everyone that in the United States there's a new number to call if you're experiencing suicidality. She says the number is 988 instead of 911.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:46] Oh, great.

John Dehlin [01:33:46] And that's sort of like a 911 call for suicidal ideation.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:50] Wow. Thank you, Maven.

John Dehlin [01:33:51] So Maven wanted me to mention that.

Lori Young [01:33:54] That's fantastic. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:33:56] I also just want to note that in Utah they've done studies comparing like all 50 states with women's mental health. And my understanding is Utah ranks at the bottom in the United States for women's mental health.

Lori Young [01:34:13] That's what I've heard too.

John Dehlin [01:34:14] And whether, like at the bottom, I could be wrong, but like, that's my understanding. And so. And I kind of pay attention to these things. So. So, you know, and whether or not women lose their faith or feel that they're even allowed to question their faith. I know there's just a mountain of Mormon women who are trapped in high levels of anxiety and. Or depression. And by the way, untreated anxiety leads to depression, not as a replacement, but depression on top of the anxiety.

Lori Young [01:34:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:50] And that's what happens when you don't treat your anxiety.

Lori Young [01:34:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:34:52] And so, you know, and when you were saying with half the sky that, like. Oh, man. You know, women in developing countries have really bad. Because they, you know, they deal with menstruation different, and they're trapped because they have babies and are married. And it's no different in my. Well, it's different, but it's. It's still significantly severe.

Lori Young [01:35:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] That once you get married when you're 18 or 19 or 20 or 21 1. And then immediately start having quick kids, which is what the church wants.

Lori Young [01:35:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] By design. The church wants Mormon women married early and having kids as quickly as possible.

Lori Young [01:35:27] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] Having as many kids as quickly possible. And like, education and career are literally, like, not important.

Lori Young [01:35:33] No.

John Dehlin [01:35:34] Compared to any of that.

Lori Young [01:35:35] Discouraged and.

John Dehlin [01:35:36] Right. And that leaves Mormon women almost. I would. I would venture to say, almost as trapped as the women in these developing countries.

Lori Young [01:35:45] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:35:46] Because once you've got four kids, what

Lori Young [01:35:48] are you gonna do? You have no education, you don't have a career. If you're in a bad situation, you have four kids, you don't have options. Like, you really don't.

John Dehlin [01:35:58] And you certainly don't feel like you have options.

Lori Young [01:36:00] No, no.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] Right.

Lori Young [01:36:01] Exactly. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] Because what are you gonna do?

Lori Young [01:36:04] Yeah, exactly. Go back to school with four kids.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Yeah. Get divorced. And then who's gonna watch your kids? And how are you gonna afford. Right now you're splitting household income. What are you gonna do?

Lori Young [01:36:15] Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:36:17] And this isn't just like, oh, the sky's falling. This is so many Mormon women.

Lori Young [01:36:23] Oh, yeah, yeah. It's a real issue. Yeah. And I think, you know, to your point, you. You don't even see that you have options, even if you do, because your. Your whole life has been defined and mapped out before you're born. Think of a baby blessing. So for people who aren't never Mormons, this is like a christening for the baby. But in this case, a baby is, like, blessed by their father who holds the priesthood, and they kind of give a blessing and they talk about what they want for the life of this child.

Patriarchal Blessings, Yoga, and Finding Spirituality

Lori Young [01:36:56] You listen to any traditional Mormon baby blessing for a girl, what is it gonna say, I bless you, that you'll grow up, you'll be kind to your brothers and sisters, you'll respect your mother, that you. That you'll find a worthy mate to marry in the temple, that you'll become a mother. I mean, your life is mapped out for you before you're two months old. Like, you already know what your life is supposed to look like, and there's no deviance from that, you know, patriarchal

John Dehlin [01:37:25] blessings as Julius Noted. The patriarchal blessings do the same thing. It's kind of like Mormon fortune telling, but like some old man who's a man is always a man man. When you're like 16 or 17 lays his hands on your head, it's supposedly God talking. They write out the prayer. And what does your patriarchal blessing say?

Lori Young [01:37:42] You know what I mean? Yeah, that I'm gonna get married and then I'm gonna have kids and I'm gonna teach my children, you know? And in fact, I.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] Wait, wait. Your patriarchal blessing didn't say you'd have a fantastic career?

Lori Young [01:37:52] No mention of prayer. None whatsoever. Although my husband's dips.

John Dehlin [01:37:56] Oh, weird. And he stayed over the. Like, Right.

Lori Young [01:38:01] I know. We broke the rules.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] Conditioning.

Lori Young [01:38:03] Completely. Completely. Yeah. You're just told over and over and over again, and I have to share something really funny. So in the temple, when you get married and you get sealed, there, of course, is nothing about vows to each other or covenants to each other. It's all just this priesthood person telling you all these things. And one of the things he says is, you know, that you'll be blessed, that you'll multiply and replenish the earth as part of this union and stuff. And I remember I was never super keen on motherhood, and my kids know this.

Lori Young [01:38:34] And so I remember going to my dad, who I saw as my church authority, and saying, I know I covenanted to multiply and replenish the earth, but technically, how many kids do I have to have? And I'm like, in my head, I say two, because technically, that's multiplying and then replenishing. That's like replacing me and my husband. So is that okay? And he's like, well, technically, yeah, that's probably okay.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] And I'm like, I think you're replenishing, not multiplying. I'm sorry.

Lori Young [01:39:01] I was like, okay, I think you should. I'm like, okay, well, that's all we're gonna do then.

John Dehlin [01:39:05] We're replenishing.

Lori Young [01:39:06] And that's what we did.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:07] But isn't that also how. I mean, it just shows our conditioning, too? Because you're going to a man to ask about your life, your body, your body, what you're gonna be asking of yourself.

Lori Young [01:39:22] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:22] And then.

Lori Young [01:39:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm asking a man for direction. And then what do I have to do to meet this requirement?

Margi Dehlin [01:39:28] Yes, you tell me.

Lori Young [01:39:30] Yeah, you tell me what I need to do to meet this requirement.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:33] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the most important shifts for me about what you described Too, during your time in uni is that on some level, you know, I think for. In families that maybe aren't conditioned, families don't come from high demand religions. Right. There might be a place for individuation, differentiation, growing into adulthood and moving on from this family system that's enmeshed and highly a controlled scenario, really. Just a mini world of your church world. Right. But in Mormonism, Buddhism, it isn't like that. So it's all the, the whole creation very much is to keep you part of the system, to keep you young, to keep you subservient. Still the parents are still the parents. Even though you're 42 and you may have kids or. Right.

Lori Young [01:40:32] Oh, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:33] Experience. And what I see really shifted for, for you, particularly as a woman in the church, is, is moving from. I exist for others. I exist to make you more comfortable, to make you happier, to relieve your suffering, to show up in a way that's easiest for you. Right. To be other centered, which is very much about like, that is our role.

Lori Young [01:40:59] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:59] Like a lot of what it means to be a woman in the church is about our significance to others. But that flip was I am significant to myself.

Lori Young [01:41:11] Yeah. Which is a complete paradigm shift. Right. And at the beginning it feels very selfish. You feel like a very selfish person when your sole purpose is not for others.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:25] Yeah.

Lori Young [01:41:26] To live for yourself at the beginning feels very selfish, which has been part

Margi Dehlin [01:41:31] of the conditioning too. Like that is part of what we've been conditioned to think.

Lori Young [01:41:37] Right? Exactly, exactly. So moving away from that is a journey and it takes time to get there, but it can happen.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:46] Yes. It's a rebuilding of its own. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] So one question, and I've got a few. One question I had is, what is savasana really quickly.

Lori Young [01:41:57] Oh, yeah. So yoga. So that's one thing that I, I started practicing. I'm smiling at me, I'm discipling at you. She knows what Shavasana is. So one thing that I did start practicing, that I started practicing at uni. So they have, you know, you're there 24 hours a day. So they've got to have activities and things to fill up the day when you're not in therapy. So they had yoga, which I had started doing a little bit before I went there. But you know, kind of in my.

Lori Young [01:42:27] Maybe this was just my family, but it was kind of naughty because it was kind of Buddhist stuff. Right. So you're going away from religion, which is supposed to. Mormonism solves all your problems. You don't need Any other methods, any other ways. And so it was kind of this departure.

Lori Young [01:42:46] A little bit naughty to do yoga. Right. So anyways, but I started practicing it and so which, first of all is amazing because you learn mindfulness and you learn all these things. The Mormon Church keeps you so busy, you don't know what mindfulness is. But I started practicing yoga and then at the end of a yoga practice, they have what's called savasana, and basically it's where you just lie still.

Lori Young [01:43:11] You kind of go inward. You lie still for like three to four minutes, completely still, and then you kind of rebirth and. And come out from that and then you end your practice. But yeah, during that is when I finally, like, you pause and you just live in the moment. And that was one of the first times I feel like I felt like true peace in my life. And it was really awesome. And I still practice it. I still love it. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:44] Love it. It. Okay, I want to get. We want to get to kind of your healing and regrowth. But I just have one quick Mormon related question before we depart. Did you happen to see a month or two ago, the Relief Society General presidency statement that Mormon women are more. Whatever it was, are more empowered than other women in the world and other faiths, that we give women more broad power than anyone else sort of thing? Did you see that?

Lori Young [01:44:16] I didn't see it. Heard the clip. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] Okay. Did you have her? Because, I mean, that's what. Part of what prompted this idea of a women's panel and focusing on Relief study presidents and presidencies.

Lori Young [01:44:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:28] Which brought us you.

John Dehlin [01:44:29] Yeah. So thank you, Mormon Church, for bringing us Laura Young. Do you have a response to that?

Lori Young [01:44:37] Yeah, I think. I mean, first of all, things don't really anger me anymore because I don't really care about the church anymore. Right. But I think to me it's just almost humorous because one of the biggest. And this is the thing that's fascinating about, I would say cults, I kind of consider the church a cult, but is that they actually use their own people. They do the policing. Right. And in the Mormon Church, it's actually the women like the Stake Relief Society president who did the policing. Right. And so because of that, the women try to make themselves feel better by saying things like that. Right. So they, I think they spread this misinformation and they spread this false information as a way to build themselves up and make themselves feel better.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:28] Right.

Lori Young [01:45:28] Like that woman, I can't remember her name, but she knows. She knows full well she can make no decision without the priesthood, without the men. She knows that. She's not stupid. And so to say that they have more power is ridiculous. And she knows that they have more power under the direction of men.

Lori Young [01:45:49] But we always say these things to placate ourselves. Oftentimes, if I'll make a comment about how women are not equal in the church, you know, you get a lot of women responding and saying, well, I've always felt equal. I've never experienced that. I've never experienced that feeling. Well, you tell yourself a lot of things to make yourself feel better in the church. And I think that's just another attempt to placate themselves and to also try to put on this appearance that because the church is bleeding and we all know they're bleeding members, and I think they keep trying to put on this public appearance.

Lori Young [01:46:25] No, look, we are progressive. We do give women power. We do all these things, and they want to put that image out to the world.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] Yeah, they're not just bleeding members, they're bleeding women.

Lori Young [01:46:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:46:39] And, sorry, one last thing. They regularly will do studies and ask Mormon women whether they want the priesthood, and they'll ask men too, whether women should get the priesthood. Weirdly, in Mormonism or men, maybe, predictably, more. More Mormon men, a higher percentage of Mormon men think women, Mormon women should receive the priesthood than Mormon women think that they should receive the priesthood. I, I don't. I, I'm kind of putting you on the spot here. Do you have any guess as to why that's, you know, like, it goes back to your thought about your point about women, Mormon women saying we're fine. I, I feel great. I feel totally empowered. Any other thoughts on why that might be?

Lori Young [01:47:19] I think it's because Mormon. It's that conditioning. I think Mormon women are so conditioned that a lot of them do believe that's their purpose or that's their plight. I think they are so conditioned that way, and I think they're also.

Lori Young [01:47:37] A lot of Mormon women are afraid of power. I think they are afraid of taking their own power back. I think they are afraid. They've been taught for so long to be small, to be invisible, to be silent, that I think they would almost be uncomfortable with it because they're so conditioned not to be that way.

Lori Young [01:47:59] But I think what people misunderstand about the priesthood is, which I totally think is not real anymore, but it's not about, you know, when the whole Kate Kelly thing was happening. The ordained women and people are always like, well, I don't want the priesthood Anyways, why would I want to be a bishop? That sounds hard. Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you're missing the whole point. It's not about having the priesthood. It's the fact that the people with the priesthood are in authority over you and there should be no authority between men and women. It should be equal. And that's the whole point that's missed.

Lori Young [01:48:33] But I think women say that because I think a lot of them are afraid, first of all. And a lot of them are just so conditioned to be in their role a lot of times they participate in their own oppression a lot in the church. Very much so.

John Dehlin [01:48:50] Yeah, I guess there's internalized sexism is a thing.

Lori Young [01:48:53] Absolutely. Absolutely.

Healing the Brain and Rediscovering Purpose

John Dehlin [01:48:58] Great. Well, you talked about how important mental health was in helping you. You. You know, there's. It's one thing to lose your faith in Mormonism and. Or to leave the church, but it's not like that then makes you happy. Like you still have to figure out how to be healthy and happy.

Lori Young [01:49:16] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] You talked about the wiring in the brain and therapy and yoga. Are there any aspects you want to share with. With Mormon women or. I think the reason why 70% of our audience has never been Mormon is we have ex evangelical Christians, ex Catholics, ex Protestants, ex Jews, ex Muslims. Some people don't like the term ex Jew. So if I didn't mean offense by that, because sometimes people view Judaism as a culture, not a faith. So sorry for that faux pas. Or, you know, ex high demand religions.

Lori Young [01:49:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:49] So for those women or men, I'm sure can benefit as well from how. What were some key points of healing, growth, self development for you, apart from therapy and yoga?

Lori Young [01:50:04] Yeah, absolutely. Well, one thing that I really struggled with, and I think a lot of women who have been in high demand religions will struggle with this and that's trying to figure out what your purpose is after you leave because of that conditioning. You talked about, Margi, where your purpose is really to make other people comfortable or to help other people or serve other people. It's always for someone else. And so one thing I really struggled with after is like, well, what's the point of my life now? Right. Like, now that I've left this belief set and this culture now I don't know what my purpose is.

Lori Young [01:50:40] Right. And so part of that through, you know, through therapy and also just spending time with myself, was trying to figure out, well, what is my purpose? Like, why am I here? What should I be doing with my life now? Because you get a lot of free Time back after leaving a high demand religion, get a lot of free time, which is lovely.

Lori Young [01:51:00] So I really, I would recommend therapy, of course, and then really internally going inward and thinking about what you want your purpose to be, because you've likely, if you're a woman in a high demand religion, you've lived your whole life around being a good daughter, being a good spouse, being a good mother. And, and that's really been your role. And you haven't really thought about what does my life look like, what is my purpose for me? Right?

Lori Young [01:51:28] And so I really came down to two things. I'm like, my purpose is to ease human suffering and experience joy. And that's it. And that's it. And when you're in a high demand religion, it's so complicated what your purpose is and all the things you have to do. You have to pay tithing, you have to go to church, you have to say yes to callings, you have to pray, you have to go to the temple. There's all these things you have to do that really serve no purpose. And so really identifying what your purpose is, what you want your life to look like. And so I try to like things that I do that I invest my time with.

Lori Young [01:52:04] I weigh against those two purposes. Does this ease human suffering, make someone's life better, or do I experience joy from this? Right. So that was really helpful. And then the other thing I would say is, is seek out new connections. So one thing, at least for me when I left Mormonism, you think you have all these friends or connections within the church, but church friends are not friends.

Lori Young [01:52:31] They are church friends. Like, you think you're friends with them because you see them every Sunday and you talk to them every Sunday and they know your kids and then you see them at the midweek activity or maybe you are their visiting teacher, or I think they call it ministering sister now or something.

Lori Young [01:52:46] So you think they're your friends, but they're actually not because they all go away when you leave the church. That was the only thing you had in common. So I would say seek out those groups. For me, it was hugely important. Ten years ago, listening to Mormon stories, hearing other people's stories was super important. And then I don't know if you remember John, but. And I don't even know if this is still around, but 10 years ago, there was a group called, I think, Mormon Spectrum, and you could go online and like, see where, like, little groups had been created.

Lori Young [01:53:20] And so we went onto that website and we saw that there was one little Group in Daybreak, Utah, a tiny little group and they met at the park every Sunday. And so one Sunday we went. I think There was like 40 total members in that group. So we went there and we just met the most beautiful people, like wonderful people. There are so many incredible people that have left Mormonism, and I'm sure it's the case with any high demand religion.

Lori Young [01:53:48] But then we started doing activities with them and meeting them. And by the way, that group now has over a thousand members. Started with 40.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] What's it called?

Lori Young [01:53:57] It was a South Valley Mormons in Transition.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] I remember, I remember.

Lori Young [01:54:00] Yeah. So if anyone is going.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:02] Started at 40, now we're saying, I

Lori Young [01:54:05] think there's over a thousand.

John Dehlin [01:54:06] I remember when that was created. Yeah. More Spectrum came out when I got excommunicated in 2015. I had a retreat in, I think it's Park City or maybe even Hebrew Midway. And this group called Waka sort of had a genesis after that retreat. I'm not taking any credit for Waka, but Mormon Spectrum was another one. It's like, let's have a directory of all the Internet communities for people. And I just checked, mormonspectrum.org is still up there. I don't know know if it's maintained, but it's still got a lot of links that I'm sure are valid.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] Just maybe not newer ones. But then Thrive, we tried to replicate that at Thrive. So Thrive beyond religion dot com, there's a map as well. But, you know, the way Thrive's set up is you can start your own community if there isn't one. But you can just go to Facebook and Google like Mormons in Montana, and you'll find some. Some of the Mormon spectrum, you know, whatever Thrive groups there. You could do Mormons in Houston, but you know. Yeah. And there's also Waka Worldwide, which is a fantastic support group for women over 40 who have no longer believe in the church. There's Faith Journey Meetups, which is an amazing group for kind of women under 40, predominantly along the Wasatch front.

Lori Young [01:55:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:55:24] And yeah, there's the ex Mormon Reddit that there's so many fantastic communities now. And yeah, it's essential. Margi and I were reading some research that showed that there's evidence to suggest that finding the right friends and social group can be as important or in some cases even more important than things like diet and exercise. And that's not to say you shouldn't eat well and exercise. It's just to say healthy friends and social life cannot be easily Undervalued.

Lori Young [01:56:05] Yeah. And I would absolutely agree. And that's one thing I would recommend for anyone, seek that out. Because not only can you find people who have kind of this shared experience and sometimes you need that to process that and move past it. And obviously we've moved now we're not in contact with them anymore. But at the time that was so important to have that. And then the other thing that I just cannot say enough about is like learning to laugh. You know, in the temple you covenant not to have any loud laughter and introducing humor into it and laughing about it. Oh, I just cannot even tell you how good that is for the soul.

Lori Young [01:56:47] So seeking out those groups I think is really important. Important therapy, finding some practice for yourself, whether it's yoga, whether it's meditation or whatever it is. Because when you leave a high demand religion, you are going to have to kind of rebuild your identity and learn who you are, what does bring you joy, what things do you enjoy?

Lori Young [01:57:12] And so you'll have to kind of rebuild your own identity. So carving out time for that in some practice or something, some way I think is crucial to do that. Self discovery, because you've never really done that. You've not been taught to do that. You've been told what your life is going to look like. So you really have to kind of take a pause and decide what you want it to look like. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:35] What are some of the practices that you have had? What has that looked like for you

Lori Young [01:57:41] or like meditation practices?

Margi Dehlin [01:57:43] Yeah, your time for you, your time

Lori Young [01:57:45] to connect to yourself.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] More time.

Lori Young [01:57:47] Yeah, definitely. Meditation is key, which I've never. You know, you're so busy in Mormonism you don't, you think you sit still, but you really don't.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:58] That's right.

Lori Young [01:57:59] So like actually sitting still and doing meditations, whether it's self affirmations or whether it's peace or stillness or whatever it is, is really important. I think for me a key component that was really important for me because I was very service oriented in the church. I didn't want to lose that when I left. And so becoming involved in volunteering in various capacities was hugely important for me.

Lori Young [01:58:26] The cool thing is you get to decide what you want to do. So volunteering is no longer signing up to bring a casserole to a funeral, or signing up, up to clean the church for the 10 millionth time, or doing the volunteer activities that are provided within the church because that keeps you so busy, but actually looking outside in your community and determining what am I passionate about? Where do I want to spend my free time or my volunteering time. And being able to pick, that is so cool. Right. Because then you decide what you care about. And you can still be a selfless, giving, good person, but you can do it your own way.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:07] Right.

Lori Young [01:59:07] And so trying out a few different places and, you know, really deciding what causes you're passionate about and deciding that for yourself is really awesome.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:16] I can imagine. What are some of the places that you have chosen that have really been a good fit for you?

Community Service and Reclaiming Personal Power

Lori Young [01:59:23] So right after I left, I volunteered at the Hospital of St. Mark's and that was pretty good, but it didn't have enough interpersonal. I really like interpersonal connections. And so we found this organization called the Legacy Initiative in Salt Lake City. I don't know if they still run or not, but once a month, they would get together and make about 1,000 burritos.

Lori Young [01:59:45] And then we would have backpacks. We would roll them in foil. We would have backpacks with the burritos, water, socks, and everything. And we took our kids down there once a month. And you just go around the Rio Grande area to the homeless encampments, and you give them what they need as far as socks, essentials like that water, the burritos. And then we would just talk to them.

Lori Young [02:00:08] And I had never done that before. But one thing I really realized when I was in uni is I felt so lucky to be there, that I had not only the financial capability to be there because I had good insurance and I had a supportive husband. I felt like I was that close away from being one of those people who was homeless.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:33] Absolutely. That's right.

Lori Young [02:00:35] Because if you have a mental illness that goes untreated because you don't have the financial support you need or you don't have the family support, that's what a lot of them have, right? Untreated mental illness. And so talking to them, I thought anyone could be here. You think you can't, but anyone could be there with just a little bit of a difference. Difference in your situation. Absolutely. And so that was a really good situation. It was great for our girls to know that as well, to actually talk to people. They're human beings. They're not just people you drive by that are intense on the side of the road. They're humans.

John Dehlin [02:01:11] What was the name of that nonprofit again?

Lori Young [02:01:13] Legacy Initiative.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] Okay, so check that out. Julia will see if there's a link. I also want to make a shout out to another organization that sounds very similar. It's called called the Food Justice Coalition. So you can go to foodjusticecoalition.org the person who runs it, her name is Jeanette Padilla Vega. And I have a friend that's connected to this group and it sounds very similar. They just literally just put packages of food together and then distribute them to houseless people. So check out foodjusticecoalition.org in addition to

Lori Young [02:01:46] Legacy Initiative, if it's still running. Yeah, but that's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:01:50] Excellent.

Lori Young [02:01:51] Yeah, yeah. So that was one. We got involved with another one called Family Promise. Family Promise is an organization. It's actually a national organization, but this was very eye opening because what it is is they provide transitional housing to homeless families or individuals. And the housing is either in churches and they stay for a week at a time and then they move to another church or some churches actually own homes where they'll have like one family on one floor and then one family on another floor. The thing that was so very eye opening about this for us is that the Mormon Church was not involved. All these other churches in the Salt Lake Valley, the Mormon Church would be, I think, in one capacity. They were involved providing food, but they would not allow the peoples to stay in the church buildings.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:45] Right.

Lori Young [02:02:46] Where we would go to these other. Because a lot of times we would clean in preparation for them coming. So we would go to some other church, you know, Presbyterian or Lutheran church, and we would go and clean out their classrooms, essentially. Put out, blow up beds, wash sheets, things like that. The Mormon Church would not allow people to stay in the church.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:06] Yeah.

Lori Young [02:03:08] And that for me was super eye opening because I was like, wow, the Mormon Church owns more buildings in this valley. They have tons of space. They are not used all the time. Why on earth would they not be a part of this? Where you've got these other little churches who are struggling, don't have a lot of space, have one or two buildings in the whole valley opening up their doors.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:31] Yeah.

Lori Young [02:03:32] And that was like, wow, very eye opening, you know. So we did that for a little while too. And then I have done a women's shelter quite a bit. Very passionate about that. Obviously helping women be free of domestic violence, make a life on their own. That's down in California. It's called Wise Place. If anyone is in that area, it's an incredible women's shelter. And then transitional. They get them into transitional apartments and back on their feet. Most of them are leaving domestic violence situations. So that's been a lot of fun too.

John Dehlin [02:04:07] I know Cash Valley has capsa, which is something that we felt very strongly about. In terms of support to women's shelter in Cash Valley. That's a, you know, I'm sure there's lots throughout Utah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:19] I can imagine.

Lori Young [02:04:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:21] Shelter. What a great replacement for Mormonism.

Lori Young [02:04:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] Supporting a women's shelter or feeding the houseless, like, exactly. What a trade up.

Lori Young [02:04:31] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:04:32] Yeah.

Lori Young [02:04:32] Yes. And the coolest thing is deciding, you know, all that money we paid to tithing, which I would love to get back, but being able to decide where you donate your money.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:40] Yes. Right. Where it comes from.

Lori Young [02:04:42] Donating what you're passionate about instead of to the, you know, $110 billion fund up there.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:47] Yeah.

Lori Young [02:04:48] That's awesome. Again, taking your own power back. What do you care about? What are you passionate about? Where do you want to put your time? Where do you want to put your money? You have to redefine all that for yourself, you know? Know.

John Dehlin [02:05:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:01] I have a question kind of around rebuilding, I think, oftentimes based on what, where we've been and maybe how we've been conditioned, I think we can think about rebuilding or even healing. I feel like, is this way where it's like, get her done. Like, let's hurry and we're going to just rebuild it and whoop, okay, I'm done. Yep, healed. Nice job.

Lori Young [02:05:24] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:24] Whereas I think it's this ongoing. And that's the beauty of it. Right. Is that it's an ongoing process. But, you know, what aspects of rebuilding, like, what have the challenges been? If there have been particular challenges and also, you know, really the joys of it.

Lori Young [02:05:46] Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, and it's not a linear process. There's lots of ups and downs, too, you know. So one thing for me, and I'm sure a lot of Mormons with kids who leave the church, you worry, like, are my kids going to turn out okay now? Because you're so conditioned that your kids need the church. They need that structure to be good kids. And without it, they're going to get in trouble. Right.

Lori Young [02:06:11] So one challenge for me is like, you know, if my kids ever have, you know, a tough time or they're going through a tough patch, you know, I'll revert back to that and go, this wouldn't have happened if we didn't leave. This is because we left the church. This is because we left the church. And you still have those doubts that creep up or those times where, like, you know, you did the right thing, but then you go back to that questioning, like, is God punishing us now because we left the church? You Know, so we're having a rough time or, you know, about five years, about four years after we left, I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

Lori Young [02:06:49] And so, you know, sometimes you go back in and you're like, oh my gosh, is God punishing me now? Is he punishing me now? So you go back in and start having those doubts again because you're so conditioned that way.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:00] Those conditioned thoughts don't just evaporate.

Lori Young [02:07:03] Yeah. And a lot of times they stick around forever. Right. So that's when you, you know, when you kind of get back into the normal patterns of life, then you sometimes have to regroup again and kind of go back to some of those practices. And maybe you haven't meditated for quite a while or maybe you haven't, you know, you have to come back and refocus again and start doing some of those practices you may have neglected and you know, get out of the rat race of life, come back to yourself again.

Lori Young [02:07:31] So, yeah, I think it's an up and down and you still have periods of pain and sadness and obviously those don't go away. Everyone has those. Right. But it's just connecting it from, oh, this is happening because of this, you know, like the puppet master's up there pulling all the strings and just realizing no bad things happen to everyone.

Lori Young [02:07:54] And there are sad times and there are good times and it's okay. It's not God pulling strings. It's not any of that. It's just life. And you have to kind of retrain yourself over and over again. It does not a one time thing, I don't think. I think you have to reteach yourself

Margi Dehlin [02:08:11] that again and new connections in the brain in the moment, like over and over and over again.

Lori Young [02:08:16] Yeah. And sometimes, you know, like, I went to therapy for a few years and I haven't been for quite a while. And lately I've like, you know, started, you know, if I get depressed again or if I feel like I'm confused about life again, maybe I need to restart that again for a little bit. And it's okay to go and do that and get the help first a year or whatever, then stop again.

Removing the Stigma Around Mental Health Care

Lori Young [02:08:38] That's one thing that I think one of my intents I really want to focus back on again and that is taking away the stigma of getting help. Because I think especially in Mormon land, there is a lot of stigma around it. Even admitting I went to a mental hospital, it's like, oh God, your life was messed up. You know what I mean? There's so much Stigma around it. And I think, I think just kind of normalizing it and making it okay, like it's okay to get help. It's healthy to get help.

John Dehlin [02:09:13] Yes.

Lori Young [02:09:14] You know, and taking away the stigma and the fear around it. Because I think it's a scary thing too for a lot of people. And so I think just letting people know that's okay and it's healthy and focusing on yourself is not a bad, bad thing. It is not a selfish thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:32] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I love that you said that. And even adding to help that it's care, it's care for yourself, it's support for yourself and being alive in this world in this moment, that it makes sense that we would all have moments where we need extra help. Care. But I even love talking about it in the sense of like, you know, you're deserving of this care. You just are in this moment of suffering, you're deserving of really, you know, highly trained care.

Lori Young [02:10:11] Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:13] Exactly.

Lori Young [02:10:15] Yeah. And then, well, you asked about joys a little bit, so I'll talk a little bit about that. So one thing, like I mentioned with my purpose in life was one part of it is experiencing joy. And this part has been so fun. And I think like with Mormonism and then raising kids and all that, like, you're so busy, you just don't have a lot of time. And so one of the great gifts of leaving the church is having this time like a Sunday. Like we were always, my husband and I were both in leadership or teaching. So we were. Saturday night, we were always preparing things.

Life After Mormonism and Closing Reflections

Lori Young [02:10:51] Sunday night we were, were all day church teaching meetings, whatever. Right. Having a Sunday to experience living and the earth is the most joyful thing. Like when we first left, we were, you know, we were the type that didn't do any commerce on Sunday. Right. Never ate out on Sunday or went to a store or anything. And I can't tell you the joy of us with our two daughters going to Sunday brunch.

Lori Young [02:11:20] The first couple years after we left, every Sunday we would do Sunday brunch and having that time sitting down together and enjoying a meal, it was the most joyful thing. We loved it. Like, we absolutely loved it.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:34] We love a beautiful brunch.

Lori Young [02:11:36] Yeah. And it's so, you know, you just

John Dehlin [02:11:39] aren't women and men are. That they might brunch.

Lori Young [02:11:41] Yes. Yeah. And that was fantastic. And. And then the one thing, like we moved down to California about five years ago and we have become outdoors people, which is crazy, but just enjoying the beauty of the world. And the earth, and just actually spending time in it has been so joyful. And then the last one I will say is, I wouldn't say I was raised this way, but I think in the church, you know, you're taught that people in the church are good and people out of the church are okay, but the best people are in the church. You know what I mean? So I'm like, are there gonna be good people outside of the church? Like, really? You know, are. You know, you kind of question that, and then you get out there and you realize, oh, my God, the world is full of beautiful, wonderful people. Like, amazing people.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:39] Yeah.

Lori Young [02:12:40] And it's like, how did I miss this? The first 40 years of my life, I was in this bubble, and then you don't realize outside of it, the richness of life and relationships, and it's just. There's so many incredible people. Yeah. So that's been really fun.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:01] I love when you talk about joy, because I feel like it just, like, emanates from you as you're talking about it. You know, I'm just feeling all the joy vicariously. It's very real.

Lori Young [02:13:12] Yeah. It's been good.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] Well, what a delightful story. Laurie Young. I know. Maven and Julia are commenting in the text, and they're just saying this is the top 10, you know, for them. Feminism episode, for sure. And by the way, for those who are afraid of the word feminism, feminism can be defined in, like, 10 words. Men and women. Maybe four words. Five. Men and women should be equal.

Lori Young [02:13:40] That's it.

John Dehlin [02:13:41] That's literally it.

Lori Young [02:13:41] That's it.

John Dehlin [02:13:42] Nothing more than that.

Lori Young [02:13:43] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:13:43] Right?

Lori Young [02:13:44] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:44] Choices.

John Dehlin [02:13:45] Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, this is much more than just a feminism episode, but I'm just saying what Julie and Maven shared anyway.

Lori Young [02:13:53] Yay, feminism.

John Dehlin [02:13:54] Yeah. What a powerful story. You're a delightful storyteller and such a wonderful voice. I'm proud to add this to the Mormon stories.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:04] So grateful. Thank you. I'm so grateful.

Lori Young [02:14:06] Thank you for having me.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:07] For your life that you're here.

Lori Young [02:14:09] Me too.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:10] For your experience. Yeah.

Lori Young [02:14:13] Yeah. And that's the hope for people out there, you know? Like, I know there are some dark times as you're going through this, and I know where it's dark and it just doesn't feel like it's gonna be any better. But, you know, anyone who happens to be in that space, I just want to share that, that it can get better. It does get better, and there's so much joy to be had. You're like, I never knew my life would be this Joyful, truly. So I hope others will seek that help and know that it's out there. And, you know, I just want good things for people who are going through this.

John Dehlin [02:14:48] Yeah. Well, what a great episode. So thank you so much.

Lori Young [02:14:54] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [02:14:56] And I'm going to just give another plug at least for the Food Justice Coalition in Salt Lake area, CAPSA in Cache Valley area.

Lori Young [02:15:05] Again, Wise Place is down in Orange County, California, if we got any listeners down there. It's a great organization.

John Dehlin [02:15:11] Find a food Food for the houseless organization or a women's shelter as a starting place. But, but shout outs to them. Yeah. And also I just want to thank all those who have applied to be on Mormon Stories. We have a new process. It involves making a short video clip. But if you go to mormonstories.org we've got so many types of people we want to interview, but also panels that we want to do. Our relief study panel is coming up. We've got four great women.

John Dehlin [02:15:44] Wish we could have all the women, but four is the max we can do on a panel. But look for that coming up in the next few weeks. You know, we're looking for pimos physically and mentally out. We're looking for always looking for mixed faith marriages. We're always looking for traditional just in it to win it. Mormons that want to tell their faith journey.

John Dehlin [02:16:04] We're looking for people who recently, you know, served a Mormon mission, people who recently left the church. We're going to be doing young women's leaders. We're going to be doing young men's leaders. There's just, there's a big old list of types of panels or people that we want to interview. So please, there'll be a link in the show notes for how to apply to come on Mormon Stories. We would love to have you apply. And Margi, I want to thank you for helping us in that process because you've been critical in that, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then finally, I'll just say we, we couldn't do Mormon Stories without our donors and our supporters.

John Dehlin [02:16:42] Please subscribe on YouTube or on Facebook or on TikTok or on Instagram. That helps with the algorithms that spreads the word. Please. Like these episodes. And then our donors are what makes all this possible. So thank you to our donors. And then we lose donors, 10 or 20 regular donors every month. So if you value this type of content and you want to see it continue, please go to mormonstories. Org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor and then that will help us not have to shrink or reduce our services. But, yeah, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.