Introduction and Tara's Reasons for Sharing

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1856

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. I'm here with my dear partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:08] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:00:08] Thanks for coming.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:09] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Today we are going to be interviewing Tara Herbert. Hey, Tara, how you doing?

Tara Herbert [00:00:15] Good.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Thanks for joining us.

Tara Herbert [00:00:17] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Yeah. For those who just kind of want the preview of some of the topics you're going to be talking about, Tara's story involves a lot of really important themes. Adoption, transracial adoption, growing up as a woman of color in Utah, going to Utah schools. Tara has in her outline sexuality and sort of navigating sexuality as a teenager. You know, mission, faith, transition kind of stuff, marriage, childhood, and of course, navigating a faith crisis. Those are some of the topics in your outline.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Did I miss any big ones?

Tara Herbert [00:00:53] No, not that I can think of.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Okay. Yeah. Well, we're super excited to have you

Tara Herbert [00:00:57] and to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Yeah. And sometimes we like to give people a chance to kind of state an intention of why they would come on Mormon stories and why they want to tell their story. So maybe we can start there.

Tara Herbert [00:01:10] Yeah. I feel like my intentions are probably the biggest Mormon reason why is just to have a record of it for my sons. You know, I want them to know their mom and they are always going to be Mormon adjacent. So I just want it to forever be a conversation that we have.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] I love it. So like a witness, you want to. You want to leave a testimony, a

Tara Herbert [00:01:36] journal, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] A journal, a testimony, a witness.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:40] Wait, that's so familiar. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] Very Mormon. All right. Okay, cool. Well, Tara Herbert, where does your Mormon story begin or where does your life story begin?

Adoption and Early Childhood in Louisiana and Utah

Tara Herbert [00:01:49] Yeah. So I was born in Lake Charles, Louisiana, and when I was about two weeks old, I was adopted into my family. Right. And for the, I guess, reasons for the story, my parents who raised me, I just call them my parents. And my parents who birthed me, I call just like my biological parents. Yeah. So they placed me for adoption and I was adopted into a Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] And what do you know about the background of also your parents, meaning your Mormon family? What do you know about your parents?

Tara Herbert [00:02:32] Yeah, my dad grew up in Rupert, Idaho, and his mom is a member. His dad was never a member. They eloped when she graduated, the day she graduated high school because my grandpa was never a member. They obviously knew that her parents would not want them to get married. And then my mom grew up in Fort Worth, Texas, and she comes from Pioneers, her family.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] So, yeah, normally I wouldn't ask this but were your parents both white?

Tara Herbert [00:03:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Okay.

Tara Herbert [00:03:12] Both of them are white. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] Okay.

Tara Herbert [00:03:14] Caucasians.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Okay. All right. So they get married. So it sounds like your dad did not serve a mission.

Tara Herbert [00:03:23] He did serve a mission. So all of them, they raised their kids Mormon. My grandpa was never religious at all, but he would go to church with my grandma. He served in callings with my grandma.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:36] Wow.

Tara Herbert [00:03:37] He's probably had the missionary lessons more than anybody I ever knew, but he just never converted to Mormonism. Never wanted to. So. Yeah, but they were all raised Mormon and.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] Okay, so your dad did serve a mission?

Tara Herbert [00:03:55] He did, in Argentina.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] Oh, in Argentina.

Tara Herbert [00:03:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] And it sounds like he married your mom when she was young.

Tara Herbert [00:04:00] Yes. So they met at byu and yeah, they got married, I think the same time I got married. So my mom was 21 and my dad was 24, 23.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] Temple marriage?

Tara Herbert [00:04:14] Yeah, Temple marriage.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Okay.

Tara Herbert [00:04:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] Did your parents have biological children?

Tara Herbert [00:04:19] Yes. So they have four biological children. Their oldest passed away right after birth due to complications, and then they had two kids, started adopting. My brother is from Korea, so they adopted him. And then they had another biological son and then adopted three more kids, which would be me, my older sister, and a younger brother. Not biologically, though. Just now.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Normally when I think about adoption, I think about parents that can't have children biologically. And so they adopt. Yeah, I haven't heard. Maybe. I have never had someone to talk to before with parents that had both.

Tara Herbert [00:05:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] Have you talked to them about why they were wanting to adopt when they were able to have biological kids?

Tara Herbert [00:05:18] Yeah. So my mom always had really hard pregnancies. So after their first child passing away, right after she was born, doctors told her not to have any more kids biologically just because of how hard it was on her. Like, she almost died. Lost a lot of blood after that, but she kept having kids. And then when she was younger, they used to do like foster babies. So, like they. Until the baby was like either going back home to their family or to be adopted. Her mom took care of those babies and so she felt like that always since she was a young kid. She just wanted to adopt always. So.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] Okay, was your mom a stay at home mom? Is your mom was a stay at home mom.

Tara Herbert [00:06:11] So she did like daycare when I was younger and then she did like she worked from home as a seamstress. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] And did you mention your dad's profession?

Tara Herbert [00:06:25] I didn't. So he is an aerospace engineer. Yeah. I think you have to be one of those if you're Mormon and having all these kids yeah. And so he works on planes, like the steering for airplanes. He worked on the Challenger space launch, which I'm sure he doesn't have on his resume because it did not go well.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] I remember that.

Tara Herbert [00:06:56] Yeah. I think the whole world remembers it, but he didn't have anything to do with it. Yeah. So he's. He's worked for. Yeah. Like, commercial airlines companies for the government, doing not just regular commercial airlines, but also, like, for military as well.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] Okay, so when you joined the family, how many siblings were in the home?

Tara Herbert [00:07:30] There was five, because I'm the sixth, and then I have a younger brother.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] Okay, so you're the sixth of seven.

Tara Herbert [00:07:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] And where was your family living when you joined them?

Tara Herbert [00:07:41] In South Jordan. Utah.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Okay. For those who don't know, that's near Salt Lake City, probably 15 to 20 minutes south west.

Tara Herbert [00:07:51] Yeah. Like in the suburbs?

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Yeah, yeah, kind of the suburbs. Near the Jordan River Temple.

Tara Herbert [00:07:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] Right. Riverton.

Tara Herbert [00:07:57] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So that's a very white area, am I right?

Tara Herbert [00:08:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Okay.

Tara Herbert [00:08:04] Yeah, yeah. All of our neighbors had horses. And I don't. I don't know if that makes somebody white to have horses.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Wait a minute. What's the connection?

Tara Herbert [00:08:13] I think only rich white people own horses, though. Right. Because they cost so much to feed and house. Right. You have to be wealthy.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] I don't know about you, Margi. I never had horses growing up. Did you have horses? No, I'm just.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:28] No horses to speak of. But also not. I wouldn't say rich. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:08:32] Did you grow up rich?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:33] That's the.

Tara Herbert [00:08:35] That's the key indicator of if you were rich.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] You had horses.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] And I know you may have mentioned this. Did any of your older siblings, were they. Any of them people of color or were they all your older siblings?

Tara Herbert [00:08:50] Yeah. So my oldest brother is Korean.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] Okay.

Tara Herbert [00:08:53] Yeah. And then my sister is half black, half white.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] She's older.

Tara Herbert [00:08:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Okay, so you were the first person of color in your family of origin.

Tara Herbert [00:09:03] Exactly. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] Okay. Got it.

Tara Herbert [00:09:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Okay. Okay. So what are your memories of your childhood growing up as a person of color in white South Jordan, Utah.

Tara Herbert [00:09:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] With most of your family members being white.

Tara Herbert [00:09:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:09:18] I probably didn't realize it was probably a while until I realized that I was even black. Right. Because I had siblings that were black. Like, it seemed normal to me to, like, to everyone in your family be different color. Right. And my parents had a lot of friends that had adopted as well, and we went to Genesis.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Okay, tell people what that is.

Tara Herbert [00:09:44] Genesis is like Black Mormon Church in Utah. It's like once a month on fast Sunday that you go in the evening to another three hour block of church.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Wait, in addition to your normal ward. And this is something that's. It's a single ward. Right. In Salt Lake. And its history dates back to the 70s, even back to before black Mormons were given the priesthood and temple blessings. Right.

Tara Herbert [00:10:12] Oh, I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Yeah, it goes way back.

Tara Herbert [00:10:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] So it's just. It was just there were so few black Mormons they wanted to be able to get together. So this Genesis ward was created to allow them to kind of fellowship, right?

Tara Herbert [00:10:25] Yeah, exactly. And majority, I would say, like, of the people who were there were white parents with their adopted black children, but the people who were actually like the bishops and stuff were black. But I would say, like, the members who were making up it were mostly the kids were black, not the actual parents.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] Now, it's interesting that your parents who are white were wanting to take you to Genesis. I could see black parents wanting to attend or take their kids to Genesis. What made your white parents want to take you to Genesis?

Tara Herbert [00:11:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] Versus just have the normal South Jordan Mormon ward experience.

Tara Herbert [00:11:08] Yeah. I would say, like, out of, like, my parents really tried to educate themselves prior to adopting. Right. So, like, my mom took classes on how to take care of black hair because she knew that was a big deal. And she knew that it was a big deal that we have other black friends. Right. To be able to associate with. And so going to Genesis was where we met our friends. You know, to be able to have a community for ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:40] So important.

Tara Herbert [00:11:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:41] And really something. I mean, Utah to have that insight. Yeah, we love that.

Tara Herbert [00:11:48] Yeah. And we knew like every black person in Utah. Like, we just knew every 12. Yeah, we knew all of them. And like, even to this day, like, if you were to tell me somebody who is black and in Utah, I can, like, figure out how I actually know them.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Derise Gray, do you know him?

Tara Herbert [00:12:07] I don't know him. But even when I see like the black menaces. Right. When I saw like, Rachel, I know that she's friends with a girl that I know who is friends with my friend Tanisha. So it's like I know these people because of just how many degrees away and we all kind of know each other still.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] Nice. Nice.

Tara Herbert [00:12:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] Okay. Okay. So, yeah, I'm curious. Did you enjoy Genesis and how was it different from your regular award?

Tara Herbert [00:12:37] Yeah, I feel like I enjoyed Genesis 1. There's always food afterwards, which was great. Yeah. And I really enjoyed seeing other black kids. And it was more focused on in Genesis was like specifically just the Bible. Like it wasn't really like Mormonism, it was just Bible stories. Right. So like you weren't following the church's outline for that month. It was just like your teacher teaching you a Bible story.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:11] So interesting.

Tara Herbert [00:13:13] Yeah, I feel like I really enjoyed it. And there was like they have girls camp that you would do through Genesis.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Really?

Tara Herbert [00:13:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:23] So great. So social. The more social aspect, not just the meetings.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] It was called Genesis Girls camp or whatever.

Tara Herbert [00:13:31] Yeah, it would just be through Genesis. Like you could go to girls camp with them. I never did that. But they would invite you to go. And I still like all through high school went with friends who I met through there. And so it's like even at my school I knew other black people because of Genesis.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:54] So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] Yeah, Very, very fun. Okay, cool. So how normal, as far as you know, was your Mormon upbringing at home? You know, in terms of like family home meeting, scripture study, a church attendance, the Mormon rules, word of wisdom, law of chastity, our movies, swearing that, that sort of thing?

Tara Herbert [00:14:17] Yeah, so like ours was pretty normal. And I feel like I would meet people who are a little bit more extreme and meet people who are less extreme. But I would say like on Sundays we weren't allowed to watch any TV that was not like, you know, like the Book of Mormon stories or like the. It had to be like a G rated Disney Channel movie or something like that. We weren't allowed to play with friends on Sundays. We had family home evening every single week. We woke up at 6am to read scriptures. Before we went to school. We did all of the Mormon things. Like if we were on vacation, we were going to church when like if we were there for over a Sunday, we weren't shopping on Sundays. Like my mom would bring food for us to have during the day if we were on vacation, so that we weren't buying anything. So it was very Mormon, I think.

Family Culture and Growing Up Black in the Church

Margi Dehlin [00:15:29] So I have a question then. With your family culture, you being young now, like if you're thinking back to your younger years, how you experienced your family culture, how would you describe, was it pretty merged with Mormonism or were there ways that it was kind of different? If you were just to describe like your home life.

Tara Herbert [00:15:50] Yeah, I would say like it was very. There's still. It would be very hard to make a distinction between the two. Right. Like our family was very close and I think like a lot of people might argue because of like we were constantly doing family home evening together as a family. Right. We were Having family dinner. We were having family testimony meeting. Like, so I don't know, like, it was hard to distinguish what was my family's rules versus what were the church's rules.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:27] Yeah, that makes sense. And then just a quick follow up. Like you remembering yourself growing up, what do you remember about yourself? How would you describe yourself kind of in those earlier years, what you enjoyed? Were you introverted? Just anything you remember?

Tara Herbert [00:16:46] Yeah, I would say very extroverted and just wanting to laugh and have a good time. Right. For example, when I got baptized, you know, a lot of people will feel bad that they like now have to be so perfect after they got baptized. For me, it's like I remember getting my birthday, like getting scriptures and stuff and being like, this is a really bad gift. Like, I wanted something better to play with.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] Yeah, the lame gifts.

Tara Herbert [00:17:16] Yeah, he gave me scriptures or on my baptism day, I. After we were at our house and I got in a fight with my brother and, and my mom was like, you just got baptized. Like, you can't be doing this. And like I felt like in my head I was thinking, like, I'm glad I hit him. Like, I stand by that.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:39] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:17:39] I felt like that was a good decision and like, so be it.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Like, so that's the opposite of scrupulosity. We talk a lot about scrupulosity of people like having a hyper, hyper conscientiousness.

Tara Herbert [00:17:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] You sort of, it sounds like you had kind of this self confidence of like these external rules. If I don't buy into them, I'm not going to care about them. I'm going to do what I want to do.

Tara Herbert [00:18:00] Yes. And I felt like my whole childhood was fighting that because I felt like that was bad because I was like, why do I just like love to hit him? Like, why do I just like I get such pleasure, like, and that's like wrong, you know, like, there's obviously a right way to do it, but I'm like, but it feels so much better to not like do it this other way, you know, and not like stifle yourself. But I don't know, I feel like as I got older, I kept trying to like fight that and be better and not be so reactionary, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:39] Yeah.

Navigating Adoption Questions and Racial Identity

John Dehlin [00:18:40] You talk in your outline about being asked about your adoption. Do you want to tell some of those stories?

Tara Herbert [00:18:47] Yeah. I feel like a lot of times as an adult now, it's not strange for me to get questions and answer it because I'm an adult, but as a child it's really weird for somebody to ask you intimate questions about something that you don't quite really understand yet, you know? And so sometimes it would be from adults, like, asking, how do you feel about being adopted? Like, do you feel like,

Margi Dehlin [00:19:20] what were

Tara Herbert [00:19:20] some of the questions? Like, do you feel like your parents love you? Like they love their own kids? Which was a weird question because it's like, what do you mean their own kids? Like, I am their own kid. So why are you asking if they love me? Yeah, the same as their biological kids, I guess. Or even asking, like, when did you know that you were adopted? And they would ask my parents in front of us, and a lot of times my mom would just, like, laugh, like, kind of like acting like. I don't know, like her reaction was like, this person's an idiot. You know, like, just laughing it off. But I didn't know how to always react, especially from kids my own age who really didn't understand it. And kids are kids, you know, and they are. I don't know, they're human. We're good and bad, all of us, you know? And so specifically, I feel like I had one friend. Well, like a frenemy. My mom used to, like, babysit her. And when she was mad at me, she was like. It was like psychological warfare with, like, another kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:32] How old are you? At this point?

Tara Herbert [00:20:34] I was probably like 8 or 9 years old. And she had stuff going on with her family. Right. So her father had divorced her mother for another woman. Right. And so she had her own issues, but she would, like, say stuff like, oh, I can't. She's like, I don't know how you feel loved by somebody who's not your real mom. Or I don't know how I would feel about not living with my actual parents and just stuff like that to try and hurt my feelings. And I just remember one day she was doing that to me, trying to make me feel bad, and I was like, well, where's your daddy?

John Dehlin [00:21:23] And you knew what you were saying, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:24] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:21:24] Cause he lived across town with his other family. And I feel like after that point, she wasn't so vocal about trying to make me feel bad about it, about being adopted, because I guess you couldn't

John Dehlin [00:21:39] pass as a non adopted kid because you were a different color than your parents. Is that right?

Tara Herbert [00:21:44] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] So that would invite questions from kids and adults.

Tara Herbert [00:21:49] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:21:50] Yeah. And people just, I don't know, even to the point where people were expecting to see, like, black parents, like, a little bit later on, like, I played basketball, you know, And I had a friend who gave me, like, a basket of. She's like, we all got this for you because, like, your parents have never been to a game. And I said, my parents have not missed a game, but she didn't know they were white. And so stuff like that, where people would just assume. And it's like, yeah, that's my dad.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:26] But I hear you saying, though, that, like, since you were a child, you've had to hold oftentimes a lot of complexity and hard things through people's questions around you being adopted. Is that kind of what you were?

Tara Herbert [00:22:42] Yeah. And there was no conversation, I guess, with my parents about how to react to what I would consider inappropriate questions. Right. That were, like, making me uncomfortable. My parents love adoption, and so they. I think for them, it was just, like, being advocates of how great adoption is, you know? But I don't think they realize, like, for their kids how uncomfortable it would be to constantly have your life and upbringing in question.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:15] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] I didn't ask you if your adoption was opened or closed.

Tara Herbert [00:23:20] Yeah. So I was adopted through LDS Family Services, and it was a closed adoption, I don't think.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] You didn't know. Maybe your parents didn't know, your biological parents?

Tara Herbert [00:23:32] Yeah. So they met them when they came to pick me up at the hospital, but that was it. They didn't get to, like, have any conversations. I think up until I was five years old, my biological parents were allowed to write letters. Like, I had a pair of earrings that were from, like, my biological parents. They had given me. I had a doll that they had given me and a blanket, but interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:02] Yeah. So you did have some. You had limited kind of connection.

Tara Herbert [00:24:07] Like, you knew, and I knew that was from them, but I didn't. Like, after, I think it was five years, like, they weren't allowed to contact us. Oh, yeah. And everything was through LDS Social Services. So it was like they're sending it. They don't even know where you live. Right. They're sending it to LDS Social Services, and then they're passing it on.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:29] But then you got it, and you have it for five years, but then it's gone.

Tara Herbert [00:24:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Okay. So your biological parents would not have known where you. What state you were living in, the names of your parents, your name, your last name.

Tara Herbert [00:24:43] I think they assumed we were in Utah because she, specifically, my biological mom, went through LDS Social Services because she wanted a Christian family.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Got it. Okay. Okay. And do you just remember as a kid how you felt about being adopted just in your own internal mind? Forgetting everybody else.

Tara Herbert [00:25:08] Yeah, I would think. I felt like I loved my family and I loved my upbringing. Like, I was free, you know? And I also was taught a lot about how lucky I was to be in a Mormon family. Right. Like this. My life would have been horrible to not be raised in a Mormon family. And so I should be grateful to.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:43] Wow.

Tara Herbert [00:25:44] Being a Mormon family, because. Yeah, not all get so lucky to be raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] It feels great to be better than everyone else, right?

Tara Herbert [00:25:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] Feels great.

Tara Herbert [00:25:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] Okay. Okay. So another layer of complexity is, you know, obviously the Mormon Church has a really troubled history with race. You know, the priesthood ban on black members and temple ban on black members prior to 1978. So growing up in white Utah, where I think a lot of people grew up having never met a black person up until graduating from high school.

Tara Herbert [00:26:18] Yeah. My dad knew one black person his whole life.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] His whole life, right. Yeah. So, like. So do you want to talk about that as a kid and how you were treated and that sort of thing?

Tara Herbert [00:26:29] Yeah. So I feel like growing up in South Jordan, I knew a lot of, like, I feel like in our neighborhood, there was a lot of other families who had adopted, so there were other black kids in my neighborhood because, I don't know, just this, like, one neighborhood. We. They had a lot of people, kids who were adopted. So I still had friends that were black, and. And I played basketball, so I feel like I met a lot of other. I mean, that sounds weird, like, but I feel like there's a lot of kids that were of different races playing basketball. You know, I think the complexity came as I got older and was aware that I was a different skin color. Right. Probably it was, like, sixth grade where I really, like, came into recognition that, like, I am different. Like, and it was like, I have. It's almost like being raised white and being able to, like, have all that privilege. And then it only goes so far. Like, you're reminded constantly, like, hey, like, it only gets you this far because you're still black, you know,

John Dehlin [00:27:51] so there's. So there's this point when you're sixth grade where you realize that you're different in a way that's gonna be disadvantageous for you.

Tara Herbert [00:28:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Is that right?

Tara Herbert [00:28:05] Yeah, just in the way that, like, my hair. Right. Is when I think by that point, like, my mom had been doing my hair, and she would just do, like. I don't know, like, I thought it was nice just braid. Braided back, you know, or rubber band back in, like, protective styles. And it was like, by sixth grade, People want, like, long hair and you start curling your hair and like kids. There is one kid in particular who would call my hair a rat's nest, you know, so it's like realizing those differences of like, oh, your hair is not as good as their hair and maybe you're not as attractive, I don't know, as you're developing, like, your sense of self. I don't know. There'd be times where I'd look in the mirror and be like, I was like, well, I don't think I'm ugly, but I don't know if I'm good looking either because I have black skin, you know, dark skin, so.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] And that's you comparing yourself to others versus picking up signals for how, quote, attracted people are to you.

Tara Herbert [00:29:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Does that make sense?

Tara Herbert [00:29:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Is it both or just self assessment comparing yourself to others?

Tara Herbert [00:29:20] Yeah, I think it was a little bit of both. Right. Like, I did have friends. Like, for example, I had a friend who was Muslim and I was like obsessed with him. Like, his whole family had moved here and like, all of them were like, literally like Muslim gods or God. They were so attractive. I don't know how they, like, were so good looking, but like, I had a friend like that, right. So that he was brown and so. But he liked white girls, you know, and so it was like, oh, okay, well, I'm brown and the only other brown person that I know is attracted to white girls. And then as I. I don't know, getting into like middle school age where you actually are starting to like, liking people, I feel like I just, I never, like, my friends started getting boyfriends or different things, and I didn't have boyfriends or people who were necessarily interested in me for my looks. So I. I don't know, for me, I felt like I had to be funny and like friends with people in order to have those, like, closer connections with people.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:42] Yeah. Yeah. This reminds me of sort of the white supremacy, beauty kind of standards. Right. That you read about. And even reading about diet culture or where it comes from, a lot of it, as we trace it, trace so many things attributed to beauty and culture. The root we oftentimes end back at is sort of white supremacy kind of. Right. And that hierarchy that, that kind of comes out there and it sounds like at some point, it sounds like sixth grade that you were hit. You came into this level of consciousness, awareness of, like, there it is, there it is right there.

Tara Herbert [00:31:21] Yeah. That, like, this is obviously better or like, perceived to be better by other people, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:28] Got it.

Tara Herbert [00:31:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] So you mentioned your outline, getting extensions for your hair. Talk for a white person that would have no idea what the universe is of hair, you know, in that context.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:39] And your mom's care and learning about hair, right? Yeah, you mentioned that.

Tara Herbert [00:31:44] Yeah. So I feel like my mom, like I said, she used to brush out her hair, right. Extremely curly hair and style it. So when I was in, going into middle school is when I wanted like straight hair. And so getting extensions even now, right. I have extensions. Basically what they do is my hair is braided back and all the way up until here is not my hair, it's just extensions. Right. And then my natural hair just lays over it too, so I can have long hair. And now I feel like I go back and forth between like braids, extensions. But like, that was really big for me. Like all throughout middle school, high school, I, for a long time, probably not even till I was married, I had never done braids or any. Or had my natural hair, like showing at all. I always did extensions because. Yeah, to blend in. Gotta blend in.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] And is it fair to say that that helps you look more white? Like, have white looking hair?

Tara Herbert [00:32:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] Is that.

Tara Herbert [00:32:54] Yeah. And I think my features for a black person are very white, I would say, right. Like I have, they're not like the African features. Like I have a small nose. Like my eyes are. I don't even know what my eyes are. Asian looking, I don't know. But very like, besides for my skin tone, right. People would be like, what race are you? Like, especially when I have straight hair. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] Okay. Okay. So you had to. You got extensions to be able to fit in. Yeah, yeah. What. So what else was middle school and maybe early, early high school?

Tara Herbert [00:33:32] Like, yeah, I feel like I had really good friends and lots of friends. Like I played basketball and so that helped to get friends who like understood where you're coming from. Like, especially my one close friend's friend, she'd always be like, when we are in high school, all the boys are going to want us is what she would tell us all the time. She's like, I love the confidence. Yeah. She's like, just give it time. Like they're all gonna want us. And so I just had good friends that helped me to stay confident and not worry about it. And I was still like, I feel like I still probably had confidence because I was still getting like some guys, you know? So I felt like, hey, like, I must be somewhat attractive because this guy I think is pretty attractive. And we made out. So.

Teenage Years, Sexuality, and Church Standards

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Okay, so you mentioned making out There's a. There's a. That theme is pretty important in your outline.

Tara Herbert [00:34:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] And I made sure to check in with you that this is something you wanted to talk about.

Tara Herbert [00:34:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] So do you want to talk about boys and dating? And I guess you listed sexuality as an important theme.

Tara Herbert [00:34:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] So since you mentioned making out, maybe we can jump into that if you want.

Tara Herbert [00:34:54] Yeah. Yeah. So once I got into ninth grade, I made the high school basketball team, right? So I would spend part of my day over at the high school, because in Utah, ninth grade is still in middle school. And that's when it just opened me to a whole new world of, I don't know, just boys and parties and just still Mormons, Right. Cause a lot of people are still Mormon. But just this world that I felt like was welcoming, I guess, because I felt like I had really good Mormon friends, right. That were not. I got the vibes that they weren't attracted to me. I even had some boys say that they weren't attracted to black girls. And so. And that's what it really. That's the vibes I always got from really Mormon people was just that, like, my somehow being black made me less attractive or less desirable. And so when I got into high school, especially at, like, Bingham High School, there's just, like, when you are an athlete, you start getting invited to different parties. And, like, especially in basketball, right? Like, there is a stereotype of, like, female basketball players being lesbian, which was very true, Right. There was a lot of lesbians that I met and were friends with. And that was just something that we was okay to talk about to some degree. And then it wasn't okay for them, though, to outwardly show that they were lesbian, especially as Mormons, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:55] Yeah, especially so kind of privately out.

Tara Herbert [00:36:58] But I think to, like, our team out and maybe not even to themselves, really. Like, I feel like a lot of times they would, like, pretend that, like, maybe they weren't. But it was definitely as soon as. Like, as soon as a senior would graduate, right? They would be coming back to, like, see us, and they'd be with, like, their girlfriend, right? So, like, it definitely was normal, but then they would still get in trouble, right. I had one friend who got caught kissing a girl in a hallway and got in trouble at with our basket. Like, our coach, like, was. They got in trouble. So just. I don't know. It's just like, a weird world to navigate. Cause it's like, everybody knows that, like, there's lesbians, but, like, it's like, also the added Mormon on top of it means it's not okay to, like, show that. But. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:59] And then you. That's all that world is associated with being a woman basketball player.

Tara Herbert [00:38:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] But that's not you.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:05] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:38:05] I mean, when I was in high school, though, I was, like, I was really terrified that I was lesbian because I was like, if I'm black and a lesbian, wow. Like, I'm not gonna have a lot going for me. And so I really was worried about that, and I started going to parties with friends. Like, that was just like our. Our mo. Right. Was trying to find every weekend another party to go to. And I enjoyed going because I would meet people from different schools who were. Seemed attracted to me. Right. And that's, like, where I would meet a boyfriend. Right. That somebody that would become my boyfriend was going to a different school and seemed attracted to me. So I enjoyed going to parties. And even though I knew it was not okay, but I felt more accepted and okay there than to hang out all the time with really Mormon people.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] So this is gonna sound really dumb, but growing up in Texas as a Mormon, I would attend parties and just feel totally out of place. People were drinking, smoking, doing drugs, having sex, and I would just be like, the world is terrible, but at least in Utah, the kids are righteous. You know what I mean? So in my mind, the types of parties we had in Texas would have never happened in South Jordan.

Tara Herbert [00:39:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] What. What are high school parties like in South Jordan? A very Mormon part of Utah. Are they just like, everywhere else or.

Tara Herbert [00:39:42] Yeah, I would say in terms of

John Dehlin [00:39:43] drugs, alcohol, sex, etc.

Tara Herbert [00:39:45] Yeah. So still drugs, alcohol and sex.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] What. What, with the Mormons or the non Mormons or both with Mormons and non Mormons.

Tara Herbert [00:39:51] And typically, like, the wealthiest people would be, like, their parents would be, like, the Stake president or something. If you were going to their house to party, they may not be there and not be aware of it. But, like, I have.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] You mean the parents.

Tara Herbert [00:40:08] Yeah, the parents.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] But the kids would. The kids of Stake Presidents would still have parties.

Tara Herbert [00:40:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] With drinking, drugs and sex.

Tara Herbert [00:40:14] Yeah. While their parents were out of town or something. I had friends who. Their dad was a Stake president and their mom was alcoholic. Right. Like.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Or you mentioned prescription drug abusers.

Tara Herbert [00:40:25] Yeah. So mostly prescription drugs is what. Like, when I'd go to a party, right. There would be, like, a bowl of prescription drugs.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] Which ones? I don't even know if, like, Adderall or.

Tara Herbert [00:40:41] I have literally no idea. Ecstasy. I did try once, but there was one kid who. We would go to his house and his parents, like, it's very normal for parents to have tons of kids and then they are retired. And his parents were on a mission and. And he was on house arrest.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] So, like, mission president and wife.

Tara Herbert [00:41:02] No, they were not mission president, wife.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Just on a mission, like, leaving their high school kid.

Tara Herbert [00:41:07] Yeah. High school junior. To graduate. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] What does house arrest mean?

Tara Herbert [00:41:13] Like, he had an ankle monitor and could not, like, literally leave his house.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Why?

Tara Herbert [00:41:19] Because of drugs.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Okay.

Tara Herbert [00:41:21] And he was still having interesting parties at his house, and their house was huge and just like, unreal. And, yeah, his parents had left to go on a mission and left him to graduate high school. His. His older siblings would come and check on him every now and then. But literally, just like, at that point, I don't know if they just thought he was old enough to, like, raise himself or what was going on, but, like, yeah, they left, like, to go. That was more important, I guess.

Mormon Youth Culture, Parties, and Peer Pressure

John Dehlin [00:41:55] Okay, so a lot of Mormon youth were partying.

Tara Herbert [00:41:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Just like everybody else.

Tara Herbert [00:41:59] Yeah, a lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:00] And it was a place that you felt alive in. Or how would you describe how you felt in those.

Tara Herbert [00:42:06] In that environment? Yeah, yeah, I would say, like, very alive, very excited. And it was so, like, I loved seeing the different wealth. Right. Like, there's a neighborhood up in, I think, Sandy called Pepperwoods, and that's where, like, the richest of the rich Mormon live. Like, Mormons who are building, like, castles for houses. Like, it doesn't even seem real that these houses are even like, that anybody could even afford these houses. And their parents really left them kind of unattended because they were so busy with work and somebody's busy in their church callings. And so it was just kind of like, yeah, we could go, because their parents were going to be gone all Saturday evening at the temple, like, and so we could have a party there at their house.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] And so you were raised by faithful Mormon parents, and you were taught not to drink, do drugs or alcohol or have sex or any of that stuff. So how did you navigate your own decisions given your faithful Mormon context?

Tara Herbert [00:43:19] Yeah, a lot of guilt. And then my friends and I would go to Catholic confessional.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] Okay, wait, guilt. So. So there's that moment where you're like, here, try the. Try. Try drinking, or try this, you know, or, like, a guy's coming on you or whatever.

Tara Herbert [00:43:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] What's going on in your mind? Knowing that you want to be a faithful, obedient Mormon and you've been taught, quote, better.

Tara Herbert [00:43:45] I'm thinking, oh, my gosh. Like, I know I shouldn't be Doing this, but everything's betraying me because I'm so curious. I just want like desperately to know how all this works. And when it came to guys, like, I feel like I don't even remember really the one conversation my parents had around sexual with me. It wasn't even my parents, it was just my mom. And it was so confusing. Even when I think back to it, I'm like, I was literally like 9 years old and that was the one. That was the one time. Yeah. So literally just no context around sex outside of like the. For strength of youth. How it all worked. Even our sex education at school was so just like convoluted and.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:41] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:44:41] Like, for a child, you can't leave any guessing or like imply things because I didn't get it right.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Super vague.

Tara Herbert [00:44:49] Yes, very vague. And only like a day going over in like 7th grade and 10th grade is when you would have like one day in health class to go over how all of this works. And there's no questions. Like, we weren't allowed to like, have a question box to like ask these questions. Like, it wasn't until I was in like a junior when I realized you couldn't get pregnant from blowjobs. Like, yeah. Cause nobody explained that. Like, oh, how the sperm gets to the egg. Like, it was just so confusing. And so a lot of it I think was just like this desperate curiosity to figure out how it all works. Because nobody was telling me how it worked.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] So you, you would just experiment.

Tara Herbert [00:45:36] Yeah. And I, I knew I didn't want to get pregnant. So the one thing I did know was like, nothing can like go in your vaginal canal. Like, but like, yeah, we didn't know until later on in high school. Like, hey, you don't need to take a plan B if you've like giving someone a blowjob because the sperm's not going through your stomach acid. Like, so. Yeah, it was just very. And I think a lot of it too was like, I felt confident when I could be like, this guy wants me. So like, why is everyone acting like I'm not attractive, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:46:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:21] So it was a way to feel desired.

Tara Herbert [00:46:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] Is that right?

Tara Herbert [00:46:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:25] In a way to fit in and have fun. Was it just. Was it fun to kind of go

Tara Herbert [00:46:29] to those parties or did the guilt. I felt like it was a lot of fun because I had such a tight knit group of like friends that we were like doing this with where it was like, some of them were Mormon, some of them were not Mormon. When I say some, two Were not Mormon. The other four of us were Mormon, you know, and so we had. I don't know, it was just like, I don't know, like, figuring out yourself as, like, a woman, a girl, and with your friends who are there to support you and make sure that you're relatively safe. I don't know. But I think we were also too young to realize kind of any of the dangers of it.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:18] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:47:19] And there was nobody talking about, like, you know, I feel like our sex education or just education around alcohol is like, you know, in mean girls. When he's like, if you have. If you have sex or drink, you will die. Like, that is how it felt.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:35] All the bad things will come for you.

Tara Herbert [00:47:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:38] Basically anything bad you can imagine. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:47:40] So I had a. Another group of friends who were very Mormon and who were like, I don't know why anybody would even want to drink. And I'm just like, wow, like you guys. And they were like the group that, like, in high school is still doing, like, night games, which is normal in Mormonism to be very, like, childish almost, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:47:59] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:48:00] But I was like, are these, like, night games going to turn into something, like, fun? Because, like, I didn't come here.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:09] Level 19.

Tara Herbert [00:48:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:12] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:48:12] So it was just like, a little bit more immature where it's like, I had my other group of friends where it's like, are there going to be boys there? Like, they're on the phone with these group of boys, like, k. Like, I have a friend who's black and one that's Mexican. Do you have a boy for my girl? Like, making sure that, like, we all were, like, equally going to get some, like, that night. And I think in Mormonism, you are. Women are not allowed any type of sexuality. Right. It's always assumed that, like, the boys are just like these feral, horny, like, creatures that just can't get enough. But there was also, like, me and my friends, we were also horny teenagers. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:58] Hormones. There's enough to go around, as it turns out. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:49:02] When it was with us, it's like we didn't have to pretend that we were these delicate flowers that just, like, couldn't be crumpled. It was like, crumple me, buddy. Cause I am ready to go too, you know, it was like we all existed. All of our sexualities existed, and it wasn't something weird, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:24] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] I mean, it sounds very normal and healthy. You know, if you look at. Yeah. Developmentally, if you look across the country or just humanity.

Tara Herbert [00:49:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] Then within Mormonism, there's Kind of the really orthodox Mormon group that's really conservative and I think stunted and childish, but, quote, kept safe.

Tara Herbert [00:49:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] And that's a problematic statement too. And then there's just kids letting loose and having fun, and you were the latter. So how much guilt and shame did you feel trying to navigate the fun party friends, and like, your parents and your church experience on Sunday where you have to take the sacrament and confess to the bishop or lie to the bishop? How did you now, or as the

Margi Dehlin [00:50:09] case may be a Catholic priest?

Tara Herbert [00:50:12] I think that I did feel a lot of guilt and it was really hard. Like, if my parents ever watch this, they will be like, absolutely floored. I think, because even to this day, my mom was like, you were the easiest teenager I've ever had. And it's just because I did what I was supposed to do when it came to church. I always made sure I was awake to go to church, that I was when I was the little. My maids president, that I did everything I was supposed to do, you know, didn't complain. And it was like a double life. Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] So your parents had no idea you were partying?

Tara Herbert [00:50:53] I. I would be shocked if they knew because. And I came home on time. That was a big thing for all of us. Is like, you cannot miss curfew because that's gonna, like, show that, like, something's up, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:08] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:51:09] So just making sure that, like, all of those dotting your T's, crossing your I's, to make sure, doing that, like, doing.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:16] Following the rules, doing all those things almost protected the exploratory part of yourself. It's like, well, if I show up. But it really is in many ways, like, like you said, like a split life, a split self emerges.

Tara Herbert [00:51:32] Yeah. And I still read my scriptures every single night. I still went to seminary. Right. I still bore my testimony. I still did all those things. And I will say the ward that I grew up in was a lot of bad boys. And not like, bad, but I would say, like, we all kind of had to look out for each other because we weren't all seeing each other at these parties. And so you were all split live and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] So what about your prayers to Heavenly Father? Are you saying, oh, my gosh, I did it again. I'm so sorry? Or, you know, how is that shame kind of forgiveness thing going?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:15] Like, what does it look like as a routine?

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:52:17] Yeah, definitely. Every weekend I said I was gonna stop and so I would be like, this is the last hurrah, guys. Let's go out. Like, let's do this one last time because starting next week, I'm gonna be a good Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:32] I'm gonna reform.

Tara Herbert [00:52:33] Yeah, exactly. And so you just get like, shit faced every single weekend because you keep saying, this is the weekend, I'm gonna stop. This is the weekend I'm go. And then, you know, two years later, you're still going and like, not wanting to stop. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] And was that weighing heavily on you or did you just kind of compartmentalize and not let it really get you down?

Tara Herbert [00:52:58] It was definitely weighing heavily, especially when it came towards, like, starting to do things with boys. I felt like obviously it was bad. Like the. For strength of. You obviously talks about it as being bad to like, not just make out, but to like, touch each other, do any. You can't even touch yourself. So, like, imagine if you're letting somebody else do that. I felt very guilty. And so, yeah, we would go to the Catholic confessional and confess.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] So you wouldn't confess to your Mormon bishop?

Tara Herbert [00:53:46] No, I never felt like I hated bishop's interviews. My dad was always in the bishopric my whole growing up.

John Dehlin [00:53:56] Oh.

Tara Herbert [00:53:58] And they were always like my friends. Even like to the point where in high school, my bishop was my brother's father in law. So I just, like, as much as I, like, felt guilty, I just could not, like, bring myself to go to the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:54:24] What was it like confessing to a Catholic priest?

Tara Herbert [00:54:27] I felt a lot better. Because one, you're in a box, they can't see you.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:31] Yes.

Tara Herbert [00:54:32] And since I'm not a part of their congregation, they don't know me.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:35] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:54:36] It wasn't until before I went on my mission that I realized that Mormons were very big on authority. And so technically my confessions did not count. I did not realize that that was like a big.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:53] That small technicality there.

Tara Herbert [00:54:55] Like, that was the whole reason why people were Mormon was because it had the authority.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] And so what would the Catholic priest say when you confessed?

Tara Herbert [00:55:08] So you go in, I'm trying to remember, because you're supposed to say, like, forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. And then they ask you what was your sin? And you tell them what it was. And they would say that, like, technically, that if you're having. Doing anything sexual outside of wedlock and Catholicism, that's bad too. Right. And so they would tell you to not do that. You're forgiven, and go like, pray to Mary.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] So did you ever pray to Mary?

Tara Herbert [00:55:46] You can like, go up, like, I don't know, there's like shrines in The Catholic Church.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] Right.

Tara Herbert [00:55:51] Of, like, different saints and. Yeah, I would just, like, go and touch.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:56] I love the. The individuality and the. The like. When we're talking about high control environments where there's so much at stake, these little pieces of you that you're talking about, where you're thinking for yourself and you're noticing what you feel, and on some level, listening to that and trying that out, like, that's really, really something. Like, I honor that as part of your story. Really?

Tara Herbert [00:56:26] Yeah. And I think, like, for me in high school, even though I felt bad, I don't think I had an understanding really how deeply, like, I think there is, like, a genetic factor to it. Like, I think, like, when you've been, like, bred Mormon and it's like, in your DNA that it's easier for you to, like, continue the status quo. Whereas for me, it was like, I don't know, like, when you're learning about, like, Mormon history or, like, pioneers. For me, it just was like, it didn't affect me because I was like, well, this isn't my history. Like, I'm not from pioneer stock, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:15] That's such an interesting point, because what I hear you saying is the differentiation already existed.

Tara Herbert [00:57:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:22] There was, like, a separation because on. Are you saying kind of on some level it's like, well, that's not my history. That's not my people.

Tara Herbert [00:57:29] Yes, exactly. And even, like, I don't know, like, I feel like we. My parents were almost like, they celebrated that we were not, like, not from, like, that we were different. Right. Like, and they understood that, like, and they would, like, laugh like, oh, like, yeah, that's just like, Tara, like, she's so sassy or she's so feisty. They're, like, definitely celebrated that aspect of it. And I think if they were to know what I was actually doing, that they would be very, very disappointed.

Gender Roles, Race, and Political Beliefs as a Teen

John Dehlin [00:58:17] So the Mormon Church obviously has really strong feelings about gender roles, what the man is supposed to do, what the woman is supposed to do, ideas around professions and education for women. How did you see. What were you interested in? What did you see? Envision for yourself in terms of family roles, but also career. How were you thinking about all that in. In high school as you're, you know, coming towards graduation?

Tara Herbert [00:58:49] Yeah. So I feel like for as long as I can remember, I've. I loved babies. Right. And so I. When I was younger, I would tell my family that I'm gonna have 12 kids, which is, like, I feel, like, also encouraged. Right. Like, I really loved my older siblings. My sister's about 13 years older than me, so by the time I was in sixth grade, she had already had her first child. And so I was always babysitting for my siblings and just loved kids. So I assumed, right, like, everyone else, that I would just be a mom. And I would worry that I wouldn't be able to be a mom because of how much we talked about, like, the second coming. Like, I really didn't think that I would get the chance to. Because I thought that by the time I graduated high school, like, I feel like that is what kind of pushed me to, like, try to go to parties and different stuff. Because I really thought that I might not live, really, until graduation. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:09] So in your mind, it was that imminent?

Tara Herbert [01:00:12] Yeah. Like, I thought it was any. Any day now that we would, like, I don't know, like, just be taken up, like, and not be able. I don't know. Like, there was just so much talk around, like, how horrible the world was. And, like, for me, it was devastating. Cause I just was like, I just want to live. Like, it's so fun. Like, and then Obama became president, and that was like, oh, the world's over. Like, so it just felt like what I was hearing from adults was that the world was so wicked. Like, it may be any day now that we.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:55] And Obama was indicative of that. I'm trying to make that connection.

Tara Herbert [01:00:59] I know.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:59] I don't know, but that was your experience. Your experience was that Obama being elected played into it, being.

Tara Herbert [01:01:09] Yeah. That, like, he was, like, just a really bad person. Like, it should have been like, Romney was the one that was supposed to, like, bring the world to, like, righteousness.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] Can I ask about this?

Tara Herbert [01:01:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] So I'm fascinated. So, yeah. One thing, like, putting politics and partisanship aside, I always just genuinely liked Barack and Michelle Obama just as people. I just always sensed them to be decent, kind, thoughtful, smart people. Now I know there's going to be listeners that really disagree with me on that. And that's not important. What's important to me is I'm wondering how you saw them growing up in Utah, knowing that in Utah, friends and family of mine literally felt like Barack Obama was the devil, they would say, he's evil. He's the devil. And so I'm wondering how, if you experience that sort of rhetoric around the Obamas, and then if you did, how you thought about that with your own skin color and background and knowing that there were similarities between your skin color and background and theirs, if that was

Margi Dehlin [01:02:32] something you even processed, and racism in Utah Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:02:35] So first of all, I was taught. I feel like I was taught that racism was over. Right. And that even women's rights. Right. The feminist movement was over. Right. That this wasn't an issue anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:00] It's like, glad we got through that.

Tara Herbert [01:03:02] Yeah. Yeah. And so it was hard to go to school sometimes and be called the N word and have things that felt racially charged and not recognize that that was racism. Right. Because in my head, racism's over. I was adopted by a white family. See, it's great. So when the Obamas were. When Obama was in office, my mom cried when he got elected.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:32] Really? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] Because.

Tara Herbert [01:03:36] Because it was supposed to be Mitt Romney. Right. Like, he was the one that was supposed to, like, make the world a better place and not get rid of the middle class or, like, make things super expensive, whatever, you know? So I don't know, like, when it came to Obama being elected, like, it was hard for me to reconcile, like, being so proud that, like, a black person could be president and also seeing, like, what was so wrong about him besides that he's a Democrat. Right. And so. I don't know. Like, I don't know. I wouldn't say that. Like, I don't. I don't think my parents are racist for not liking Obama. Or do I think other people are racist for not liking Obama? No, but I do think it has. There's just, like, some sort of biased, and maybe it was just cause they wanted Mitt Romney so bad, you know, and wanted a Mormon president.

John Dehlin [01:04:48] Julia. Julia's messaging me that she was taught that Obama was the Antichrist. I think. I think there's more to it than just wishing the Mormon Romney had been elected.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:00] Yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [01:05:01] I think there's.

Tara Herbert [01:05:01] There's just the second coming. I feel like, for me, that was, like, supposed to be indicative of, like, the second coming.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] Like the evilness of the end times. Right?

Tara Herbert [01:05:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] Like, things are so evil. Barack Obama's president and Jesus is gonna have to come save us anymore.

Tara Herbert [01:05:18] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:05:18] Is that right?

Tara Herbert [01:05:19] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:20] Did that feel, like, very heavy to hold? Like, do you remember at that time

John Dehlin [01:05:25] trying to, like, or did it make perfect sense?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:29] How did that land with you at that time? Was it confusing? Were you dissonant? Having a lot of cognitive dissonance? Like, do you remember how it felt hearing all that and experiencing that?

Tara Herbert [01:05:40] Yeah, I think I felt overwhelmed because, again, I just wanted to live. Like, I think Mormonism in general felt very heavy at that time for me because I was playing these two roles, right. Of, like, having to Live up to this expectation of being Mormon and following all these rules, but also seeing how much fun there was in life that I didn't want to miss out on. Like, I just did not want to miss out on. Like, I feel like in the early 2000s, like, YOLO was a huge thing and, like, my parents would always be like, no, you don't only live once, so don't mess this up. And it's like, I just wanted to live. Like, I just wanted to enjoy life. I just wanted to laugh and not worry. And so it did feel heavy to think that I might not make it to graduation. Not because I, like, wanted to die, but because the world was just so evil and I was contributing to that evil by not following all of the Mormon rules.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:57] Yeah, that's heavy.

Tara Herbert [01:06:59] Yeah, so it was heavy. That's why I read my scriptures, like, all the time. Because I was like, well, this has to make up for it. Or going and doing baptisms, I'd be like, this will make up for it.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] Baptisms for the dead.

Tara Herbert [01:07:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] In the temple.

Tara Herbert [01:07:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] Yeah. Okay, so in your mind the Obamas were evil? Do you. Did you just agree with that?

Tara Herbert [01:07:21] No, I didn't agree with it. I just thought that for whatever reason, like, they didn't have the best interests at heart. Right. And I was also still so young. Right. Like, that was my first time ever voting was for Obama. Right. So I was just too young to even understand.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:50] And still in a very high control, highly conditioned, you know, environment too.

Tara Herbert [01:07:55] My parents thought I voted for Mitt Romney, but.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] Sorry, that's another thing they're hearing for the first time today who you really voted for.

Tara Herbert [01:08:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:08:04] And I did. I feel like I was also so naive. Right. Cause my main voting for him was because he was black. I didn't know any of his talking points or anything. I was just like, yes, like a black president. Got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:19] Yeah, got it.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] Okay. Okay. So in terms of gender roles and profession, what. What were your thoughts in high school?

Tara Herbert [01:08:29] Yeah, so I didn't really have any. Anybody outside that wasn't a stay at home mom or working like part time, you know, to like the main job was always being a stay at home mom. Right. And so when I was younger, though, we always had paper routes that we were doing, magazine routes that we were doing. My uncle had a magazine company and so we distribute them all across the Salt Lake Valley. And then I also worked for Brick Oven when it was built in South Jordan. And I did a ref. I was a ref for the rec center. I Enjoyed working because my parents weren't the type of parents that just gave us money. Right. Like, we always had jobs and that's how we earned our money. But it was very much like nobody was ever talking to me about what career you want to do because it was assumed that I would be a stay at home mom. And I wanted to be. At the time, I, you know how like, I feel like this was when like John, by the way, was just getting big. All of these like Mormon public speakers and that specifically only like came to speak to like youth groups and different things. Efy. Yeah. Or even like for us it was like an early morning seminary thing. John, by the way, came and he also came to like a Fireside, which is just like a Sunday evening. And so I love that. Like, I loved just like, I don't know, like I thought I wanted to do that. I wanted to be a Fireside speaker, Mormon speaker. I don't know. And then I realized I don't know. I voiced that to somebody and they were like, well, like, how are you gonna travel all the time? Like when you have kids, right? Like they're traveling all over the world. And I thought, oh, okay, so like, that's not a good mom job. And then I wanted to be a seminary teacher. And at the time when I was in high school, women who were married were not allowed. Who had children. Right. If you're married and you have kids, you're not allowed to be a full time seminary teacher and get paid. You could do like a sub if they needed you, but you weren't allowed to do that. And I think also at the mtc, you weren't allowed to be a full time employee. So those were the ones I wanted to do. But you weren't allowed as a woman. And so I just was like, okay, like, I can't do any of those things. And again, nobody's talking to you about what career you might want to do because you're just going to be a stay at home mom. So I kind of was like, I'm either going to be a stay at home mom or dad. So, like dead.

John Dehlin [01:11:44] Because the second coming.

Tara Herbert [01:11:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Okay. So that, that end of times prepper stuff was real. Not. Not necessarily prepper, but just.

Tara Herbert [01:11:52] Yeah, like, definitely end of times. Like, I really did not think about life outside of high school.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:57] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:11:58] Like, I did not think of a future outside of graduation because Jesus was coming. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:04] And that was your. Were your teachers teaching you that? Were your parents teaching you that?

Tara Herbert [01:12:10] There was just so much of like, you're the chosen generation. Right. Like, yeah, like it was everywhere. Right. And then like, the world was just so horrible and like, that was like, I always would think, like, well, this sucks because I just got here and the world is already so evil, you know?

John Dehlin [01:12:33] Yeah. It's sad.

Tara Herbert [01:12:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:35] Really? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:38] Mormonism has some really, I would say, horrific teachings around race. And whether it's the Book of Mormon teaching that God cursed the Lamanites with dark skin to make them loathsome to the white Nephites, whether it's the curse of Cain teaching that God turned Cain's skin dark for killing his brother Abel, and that that darkness was a mark, you know, that's in the book of Moses. It's in the book of Abraham, which is Joseph Smith produced scripture. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants. And then there's just the priesthood ban that Brigham Young implemented that the black members couldn't hold the priesthood of men or go to the temple of men or women. And then finally there's The Bruce Al McConki teaching that people were black because in the pre existence they were fence sitters or less valiant. And so God, they earned in a bad way, dark skin as a debit or as a curse for their lack of righteousness in the pre existence. So were you taught any of that through high school seminary, through your senior year? Any of that. And I can relist them if it's helpful and then if so how did you work through that in your brain?

Tara Herbert [01:14:01] Yeah, no, I wasn't taught any of that.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] What, what about the Book of Mormon, the Lamanites?

Tara Herbert [01:14:06] I didn't know the Lamanites, but we were taught that those were Native Americans, so I got off free there.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] Okay, but you didn't know there was a priesthood ban prior to 1978?

Tara Herbert [01:14:17] No, I didn't do any of that until my mission.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] What?

Tara Herbert [01:14:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:22] Are you kidding me?

Tara Herbert [01:14:23] No.

John Dehlin [01:14:24] And your parents never told you? I'm not trying to shame them, no.

Tara Herbert [01:14:28] Which is so interesting because, like, it wasn't until my mission that I realized, like, even when my parents were adopting us, right. They told us like, that their family and neighbors had a really hard time with them adopting interracially. And so I never put two and two on. Why? I just was like, yeah, people used to be racist back then. I never knew until my mission of like, oh, it's because, like, that was taught that like, interracial marriage adoption was

John Dehlin [01:15:04] bad according to Mormon teachings.

Tara Herbert [01:15:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:08] Cause that's another thing I didn't mention is that for decades, the Mormon Church Taught interracial marriage is evil is bad, Right?

Tara Herbert [01:15:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:17] But you never learned that growing up.

Tara Herbert [01:15:19] No, I did not.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] Wow. I mean, I'm torn. Like, on the one hand, I want to believe you would have had informed consent. On the other hand, that's crappy stuff to learn when you're being raised in this culture and in this church. So not that it's my job to feel happy or sad for you, but part of me is happy you didn't have to carry that burden. And then part of me just feels outraged that that was kept from you till you were an adult. How do you feel about it? Maybe that's more important.

Tara Herbert [01:15:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:49] Good job, John. Good job.

Tara Herbert [01:15:51] I think, like, I carried an invisible weight because of not knowing that and really thinking that, like, racism's over. Like, we don't have to, like, talk about this stuff. Like, I think that it played into why boys would say, I'm not attracted to black girls or want to just think that I was just someone who just wanted to make out or get sexual gratification from, but not someone who they felt like was a good partner because literally, the color of my skin, like, so I think looking back, yeah. I could see, like, yeah, that was, like. It would have been nice to know because it would have helped my understanding and not felt so much grief over being like, why am I being treated this way? Or why does this feel just so heavy to be black, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:16:53] Yeah. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:16:56] But no, I did not know any of that.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:17:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:01] Okay. So should we talk about mission next or is.

Recognizing Systemic Racism and Sexism in the Church

Margi Dehlin [01:17:05] I had one more question with regard to. So during your kind of teen. Your high school teen years, I feel like the church and we can look at your family system, too, and even your growing sense of kind of self. What were you taught to value about yourself? On young women's also, like, do you remember what you were taught gave you value? And then also, do you remember also being aware of things that you would feel devalued about?

Tara Herbert [01:17:46] Yeah, absolutely. Like, the biggest thing was virtue. Right. Your virtue above all else, is what made you, like, a prize.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:58] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:17:59] So in my young women's class, when I was just barely a laurel, the teacher gave us, Had a sucker for, gave it to the first person and said to pass it to the next one to eat. Luckily, I had really great, like, again, friends in that young woman's class. And each of them took the sucker and licked it and passed it on. So that's who they were dealing with.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:29] Failed. Yes.

Tara Herbert [01:18:31] It failed royally. And I'm so happy it did because, like, it cemented in my mind, you know, of solidarity among women and changing the narrative.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:42] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:18:42] And changing it. And being like. My friend literally said, she's like, I will take your guys sloppy seconds any day.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:50] Yeah, that's beautiful.

Tara Herbert [01:18:51] So the teacher was like, okay, well, that failed. And so she went into like, well, sex isn't that great anyway, so don't be doing that. And so, I don't know, it was just, wow. But I think virtue was probably the biggest thing that, like, where your value hung. And I feel like I kind of tried to, like. Like, there was a lot of cognitive dissonance when it came to myself because I was like, well, technically I'm still a virgin because I technically have not had, like, actual sex sex. But when a friend's mom explained to me that. I just remember she wasn't a member or anything, but she was like, well, virginity is a social construct. And technically, even if you're doing oral sex, that is sex. And I broke down crying in her kitchen, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I have lost, like. Like I lost something. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:20:05] Like, I hate these terms now, but it's like you had the status of virginity or purity.

Tara Herbert [01:20:10] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] And then you, quote, are no longer pure.

Tara Herbert [01:20:14] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] And just so people know, I hate

Tara Herbert [01:20:16] this language, but yeah, exactly. That somehow I was less pure. And now I was like, great, I'm going to have to, like, tell my future husband about this. Or even lessons in young women's. Having to write letters to your future husband. Just like, weird stuff like that. That you're just like, above all else, like, your value comes from your womb and from your virtue.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:45] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:20:46] Yeah. And so I feel like navigating that. I always felt a sense of, like, I don't know, like, that I was. I. That I thought I was a whore. Right. But I was okay with it because I had other friends that, like, thought the same way, you know? And even sometimes with, like, guys thinking that they. Thinking that you were that. So it meant that they could treat you however they wanted to treat you. Like, I remember one time with this guy that I was just, like, fooling around with and he made a comment of, like, well, I would wanna, maybe one day we'll get married. And I so immaturely was like, no, like, my future husband would not be participating in these sort of activities.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:52] It's a loss.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:21:53] And so I was like, no. And I know it hurt his feelings because he's like, well, you're just a whore. And I said to him, well, this is One whore you're not gonna get with. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:07] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:22:08] Yeah. But I didn't disagree with him. Right. Like, I was like, yeah, I am, but that doesn't mean that.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:14] Wow. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:22:15] I. You get to treat me that way, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:22:18] Uh huh. Interesting. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] I love it that in your perception of your own damagedness as a. According to the church, you still had this sense of confidence and resilience.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:31] Yeah. Like inner fire. Honestly, I love that.

Tara Herbert [01:22:35] Ye. Like, makes me emotional almost because. Yeah. Cause I feel like I felt that all growing up. And almost felt really stifled, you know, of like I just had like a big personality or big energy and I was constantly trying to change it, you know, I felt like it was a weakness to be that way.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:09] Oh, so like, you need to be smaller, quieter.

Tara Herbert [01:23:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:13] Less.

Tara Herbert [01:23:15] Yeah. And like, I don't know. Like. Yeah. I felt overwhelmed because I was like, I need to stop speaking my mind. I need to stop. Stop acting this way for some reason, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:23:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] Don't make yourself small.

Tara Herbert [01:23:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:38] Is that right?

Tara Herbert [01:23:39] Yeah. And just be quiet and go along with status quo. Right. Like. Like more boys would like me if I just was less.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:50] Yes.

Tara Herbert [01:23:51] You know, took up less space. Yeah. Mm.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:58] Yeah. A little follow up question. Do you remember in your teen years ever noticing kind of representation on the stand or in leadership when it came to either women or people of color? Like, do you remember a general conference or on Sundays or ever having ever noticing anything about that? It's okay. If not, I'm just curious, like in your perception what was being flagged and what wasn't?

Tara Herbert [01:24:30] Yeah. I never. Besides from Genesis, I didn't see people on the stand. That was like a person of color. Like, that was really the only time that I would see that. And I, again, I just didn't have the wherewithal to like to understand that it was like hurting me, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:24:57] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:24:59] Yeah. But I never noticed or paid much attention and didn't notice how few female speakers there were. I was really taught that like patriarchy was God's way and that the man leading the home is how God wants it and that that is like the correct.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:25] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:25:26] Way for society to be.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:30] Yeah. That is the way. That is the Mormon way.

Tara Herbert [01:25:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:34] So.

John Dehlin [01:25:35] So I guess prior to your mission, there was no awakening around either. Let's just say systemic racism or misogyny and sexism. Like all was well in Zion on both those fronts.

Tara Herbert [01:25:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:54] So it sounds like you had moments. You had definitely had moments of that dissonance because you do you have expressed racism like Going to school or. You have expressed some of that, so. Right. That being part of your experience, but just not cognitively. Something that you know that you're.

Tara Herbert [01:26:13] Yeah. I think the biggest thing missing was the language Right. Around what this was or what was happening. Right. I didn't have language to describe any of this that was going on.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:29] That's huge.

Tara Herbert [01:26:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] Or context or history. Because you clearly were feeling, I don't fit in.

Tara Herbert [01:26:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] I'm not fitting in. But you had no clue as to why.

Tara Herbert [01:26:40] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:41] You got no information.

Tara Herbert [01:26:42] Yeah, exactly. And even when I had, like, we just. Again, we. We never talked about sexuality. Like, the big topics that I feel like make up human beings of, like talking about racism or sexism and like, your experience. Like, I didn't have words for that. Like, I had a family member in high school who was molested by another family member that was my same age, went to the same school. Right.

John Dehlin [01:27:14] The molester or the molester.

Tara Herbert [01:27:16] Molester.

John Dehlin [01:27:17] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:27:17] Yeah. Went to the same school. And I didn't even know, like, I was probably like seven years later that I learned the word pedophile. Right. Of, like, what that is to describe what happened.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] Cause it was. The victim was a child.

Tara Herbert [01:27:32] A child. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:34] That is so powerful.

Tara Herbert [01:27:35] Yeah. And it's like, we just. Like, even when it happened, my mom told me what happened and it was just like. I don't know, it was so gross to me. But, like, there was no language given to, like, this person is a pedophile, you know?

John Dehlin [01:27:53] So basically no systemic evaluation. No. The racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, abuse, corporate misuse of power. Any analysis on a systemic level was just absent from your upbringing. Right.

Tara Herbert [01:28:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:12] Is that right?

Tara Herbert [01:28:13] Yeah. And like, it was like, it was. Oh, that was in the past. Right. Racism was in the past. It's over now. Sexism was in the past. It's over now.

John Dehlin [01:28:21] God's way is patriarchy.

Tara Herbert [01:28:22] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:23] And white.

Tara Herbert [01:28:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:25] Yeah. I mean, the power of language. I think that is just something to really, like, I'm absorbing that an alok who is a poet, activist, just beautiful human. Says something to the effect of like, you can speak. You can speak something into existence and you can omit it out, meaning just when you don't have language, there's no existence for it. And that is the power of language that you can literally by. It speaks your experience into existence 100%.

Tara Herbert [01:29:06] That, like, describes it perfectly of, like. Because there was no talking about it, no language about it. It didn't exist. Right.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] You just felt something was Off.

Tara Herbert [01:29:17] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:17] It was like, in a lot of ways.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:19] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:29:19] It's like the Truman Show. You know, you're being videotaped. You know, people are acting weird.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:24] Yes.

Tara Herbert [01:29:25] But you cannot put your finger on it. And then they're just over there doing the commercial. Buy cocoa. It's the best cocoa from the mountains. And you're just like, what is going on?

Margi Dehlin [01:29:35] Yes.

Tara Herbert [01:29:36] Like, this is so weird.

John Dehlin [01:29:38] Mm. Wow. This is powerful. Thank you for. It's not your job to kind of teach us what this is like, but we're really grateful you're willing to help us understand this perspective.

Tara Herbert [01:29:49] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:29:50] Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So is your mission where you're. Where, you know, the Truman show moment where the light falls from the sky and crashes on the ground and he, like, looks up and starts realizing there's something wrong? Was that on your mission where that started to happen?

Deciding to Serve a Mission

Tara Herbert [01:30:06] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:30:07] Should we go there next, or is there more?

Tara Herbert [01:30:09] No, that's perfect. I feel like when I decided to go on a mission, it was like I was going to clean up my act. Right.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] And wasn't this right around the mission age change?

Tara Herbert [01:30:20] It was right as it changed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] So what year approximately?

Tara Herbert [01:30:24] I left. It changed in 2012.

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:30:27] And I graduated high school in 20. 2013.

John Dehlin [01:30:31] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:30:33] And so I had.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] What did the change mean to you?

Tara Herbert [01:30:37] So I had written. I had heard rumors that they were gonna change the age for a mission. So I had written in my journal, like, if the age changes, I'll go on a mission. Cause in my patriarchal blessing, it said that I would serve a mission if I so desired. And at the time, I did not desire at all. Cause I knew sister missionaries, Right. Like, I don't know if it was like, the church' if they wanted to just look. Make them look as frumpy as possible or, like, I don't know. It was just. If you saw a sister missionary, like, that was their, like, dress code. And it was. I was like, I cannot wear that. Like, I cannot wear those clothes. And so that was, like, a big reason why I did not want to go was because I just did not want to look like that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] And the age before the change was 21 for women. And they. They lowered it to 19.

Tara Herbert [01:31:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] Right. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:39] So it's kind of like the visual of a sister missionary. You were like, no, that's. That's not a fit.

Tara Herbert [01:31:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:44] Older and frumpy.

Tara Herbert [01:31:46] Yeah. Because my parents, like, we were Mormon, but, like, I was still allowed to wear shorts to mid thigh.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:53] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:31:54] And I was still allowed to, like, I had, like, a purple streak in my hair or red. Like, I was still allowed to, like, look normal and not so, like.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:09] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:32:10] I don't know. Like, they all just look the same. Right. And that literally is the uniform. Right. Like, you have a uniform for sister missionaries, and that is what they decided on. And I felt like that was, like, a fashion. Like, they should not have done that. Like, it was. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] So what changed?

Tara Herbert [01:32:32] I felt convicted that I needed to go on a mission when they changed the age. I didn't necessarily want to, but I felt like that's, like, what God wanted me to do and that I shouldn't be partying. I didn't know where I wanted to go for college or anything. Nobody really talked to me about that. So I just kind of was like, this is the next step. Like, I don't know how to figure out how to go to college. And at the time, I barely graduated seminary, but they asked me to speak at seminary graduation. I don't know. So I just was like, this is, like, my calling, right? Was to, like, go on a mission and serve God. And so I decided that it was the next best step to do was to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] Okay, so you put in your papers. What'd you do the year before your mission after graduation?

Tara Herbert [01:33:40] So I turned 19. I was older for my age, so like, three months after I graduated, I was 19. So I put my mission papers in while I was still in high school.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:50] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:33:52] And, you know, it felt great. Like, I had a lot of guy friends that were all going on missions, and I really didn't want to get married. I knew three people in high school that were already engaged to get married at 17.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:06] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:34:07] Yeah. And so I just was like, that's not what I want to do. I don't. I'm definitely not ready to get married. And it felt like that was like, either go on a mission, go to college, and if you go to college, you're probably going to get married.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:21] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:34:23] And so I put in my papers when I was still in high school, got my calling. I think even before I graduated high school, I had already gotten my calling.

John Dehlin [01:34:35] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:34:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:37] And where'd you get called to?

Tara Herbert [01:34:39] To Atlanta, Georgia.

John Dehlin [01:34:41] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:34:41] Yeah. And it was so random because two other kids in my ward got called to the same mission. I guess. Not random. I think that's the opposite of random.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:51] Right.

Tara Herbert [01:34:53] But two other kids got called to the same mission, and so did a couple kids from my high school. My friends got called to the same mission as well. And so, yeah, went to the ATL and I. I love the MTC because I was only there 11 days and everybody that I knew from all. All the different high schools that we'd go to, like, were all there. At the mtc, your extroverted self was just basking. It was so fun.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] All those kids you had part with, basically,

Tara Herbert [01:35:31] they all were on the mission. Charity plan.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:34] How do I.

John Dehlin [01:35:34] Did you do that Bishop confession where you like, oh, I have to confess everything to my bishop to make sure I'm worthy to go on the mission kind of thing?

Tara Herbert [01:35:43] Yes, I was going to, but he was my brother's father in law. Still is, right at the time. And so when I went to be, like, I was like, I have a lot. Like, I was like, I brought like,

Margi Dehlin [01:35:54] you're going to be here a while.

Tara Herbert [01:35:55] I brought like a list of things to get into. And he said, I don't need to know. He, like, stopped me before I said anything. He just said, all I need to know is that, like, are you willing to not do those things again? And I said, yeah. And he said, are you willing to hang out with, like, better influences of friends and not do this? And I said, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] And so you got off easy.

Tara Herbert [01:36:25] I know that's fortuitous, but I think he just didn't want to know. Like, I was.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:30] Was.

Tara Herbert [01:36:30] I'm still like, that. That sister in law is my closest sister in law. Her younger siblings were my closest friends. Like, I think he genuinely was, like, sparing us both because it's like I still see them to this day at birthday parties, you know, events. So I think he just. Yeah, he didn't want to know.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:58] Nice. Okay. So you didn't have that grist mill of guilt in the mtc?

Tara Herbert [01:37:02] Yeah, no, I was. I was clean, baby. I had. I'd gone to the priest, I'd gone to the bishop, I'd crossed all of my T's, dotted all my eyes.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] You were pure in the eyes of two churches.

Tara Herbert [01:37:14] Yeah. Yeah. I could have gone and got baptized over there too.

Mission Beginnings and First Companion

John Dehlin [01:37:19] All right, so how's your mission?

Tara Herbert [01:37:21] M. So like I said, the MTC was so much fun. Like, just a party, my actual mission. Once I got to Atlanta, I instantly loved Atlanta. Like, the fact that you could be walking on the street and, like, hearing all these different types of music. Like, it felt like I had, like, come home, like, to Atlanta and seen just so many different types of black people. Like, it was so fun, like, to see all the culture and, like, have people be like, do you want to listen to my mixtape. I'm like, yes, I would love to, like, but my companion, my first companion that was my trainer, was awful.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] And I used an adjective to describe her. In your outline.

Tara Herbert [01:38:13] Yeah, I did. Because I'm still like, I'm going to be bitter about it till the day I die, and I do not care.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] What was it? What was the adjective you used?

Tara Herbert [01:38:21] I did called her a bitch, but was it hobitch?

John Dehlin [01:38:27] Did I misrepresent?

Tara Herbert [01:38:28] I don't know. She just was so awful. She was older than me by a lot, I think, by like four or five years. Because. Right. Like, when the age changed, happened, you still had sister missionaries that were older and then all of these, like, younger ones coming in. So she, I think, at the time was like, 24 or 25. She had her master's degree, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:54] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:38:55] I think that's like, around 25. Right. Typically when somebody has their master's. And she did not let us forget that she had her master's degree. She did not. She just was very, like, oh. She just. I don't know. She was just. I think she knew. She was mean. Like, she'd always tell me, like, I have to break you down to build you back up. And I would say, like, you're gonna have to try harder, because I played basketball my whole life, and I've had coaches that could eat you for breakfast. Like, nothing you do is going to make me. Like, she wanted to see me cry. Like, she would say that. Like, why do you never cry? And I'm just like, you will never see me. Like, I know this game. You'll never see me cry.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:43] Oh, that's your companion?

Tara Herbert [01:39:44] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:45] That's your first.

Tara Herbert [01:39:46] Not my first companion.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] Your trainer.

Tara Herbert [01:39:47] My trainer? Yeah. So you're with him 12 weeks. First companion, yeah. And she just. She thought she was just the best trainer, but then she would say. Comments. I think going to Atlanta, too, was, like, people on the street would try and grab me to, like, save me from Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] What? Explain that.

Tara Herbert [01:40:15] So, like, I. We'd be on the street, like, with our tags, right? And, like, somebody who's black would be like, do you need help? I will help you get out of this.

John Dehlin [01:40:24] Like, like, you were in a cult or something.

Tara Herbert [01:40:26] Yeah, yeah. And that. I was brainwashed. They're like, you don't imagine.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:30] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:40:31] And so they would be like, some guy would be like, I have. Like, you can get on this bus with me right now. Like, try. And I'd be like, stop. Like, terrified. Right. Like, yeah, that. It was just A surreal experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:46] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:40:47] Because then they'd be like, how did you get into this? Right. Like, black people don't join that church. Like, and this is when I started to learn the actual history of the church and why black people felt this way.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:01] Right.

John Dehlin [01:41:02] How did you first respond? So somebody saying, this is not a church black people are a member of. How did. What was your initial faithful response?

Tara Herbert [01:41:11] Well, I'm black, so. And I'm a member. And then I would tell them that I was. They're like, well, how did you join? Like, how old were you? And I was like, well, I was adopted. And then they would be like, oh, like, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:41:25] What did that feel like?

Tara Herbert [01:41:28] Typically, after, I would just be like, trying to convert them. Right. Of like, look, like, this is different now. Like, come on. Like, I'm in this church. Like, we believe in Christ.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:41] Right.

Tara Herbert [01:41:41] And this church has the authority of Jesus Christ to actually operate correctly. Right. To get you back to heaven.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:50] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] And channeling your most faithful early missionary self, someone you meet in the Atlanta streets is like, oh, that church is racist.

Tara Herbert [01:41:58] What would you say if they said it was racist? First of all, racism is over. So I just would. I don't think I knew enough about racism to argue that I would say, well, like, I was raised by white parents who love me, and I've been a part of this church my whole life, so I don't see how it could be racist.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:27] Yes.

Tara Herbert [01:42:28] Just very naive.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:29] Right.

Tara Herbert [01:42:30] Very obviously. And I think to them it was obvious that I didn't know, like, the history of the church. Right. It was very obvious to them. And that's why they were like, let me save you.

Discovering Church History on the Mission

John Dehlin [01:42:44] So you said you started learning some history. Do you want to talk about how that happened?

Tara Herbert [01:42:47] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:48] And was that a result of having these comments and these experiences?

Tara Herbert [01:42:53] Yes, absolutely. Because it does feel like when you get called to Atlanta or the south as a black missionary, that your job is to convert other black people. Right. So the first ward that I was in, the Atlanta ward, is a black ward. Like the. If you've seen Meet the Mormons, the guide, Sullivan, he was our bishop at the time, Bishop Sullivan. And so they. I don't know, like, when I went to that ward, I was like, this is how it should be. Like, it was. It was like, Baptist more than it was Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:33] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:43:34] It was.

John Dehlin [01:43:35] Glad Gospel choir kind of thing.

Tara Herbert [01:43:37] Yeah. It was Gladys Knights ward, and her choir is, like, met there. Right. So you felt really, like, empowered as a black person. And when I met Gladys Knight, I was like, crying like, yes, Like, I've come home. Like, I can imagine.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:54] That makes sense. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:43:55] And it felt very faith promoting. Right. To be in that ward because everyone was black. Right? It was like the opposite. Like, in Utah, typically, I'm like the only black person in the room. In the Atlanta ward, my companion was the only white person in the room.

John Dehlin [01:44:13] But she had a master's degree.

Tara Herbert [01:44:14] She did have a master's degree. And she let us know. And she would always just talk down on Utah Mormons. And that made me so mad. Just like, you are the worst Utah Mormon. She's not even from Utah. She was from California. But I was like, but you act like all of them do. And she would make comments that were microaggressions. Right. That I didn't realize were, you know, she'd be like, wow, this member can pay for their hair, but they can't pay for tithing. It's like, damn. Like, yeah, wow.

John Dehlin [01:44:49] Like, this is a woman of color.

Tara Herbert [01:44:51] She's white.

John Dehlin [01:44:51] No, I mean, the member.

Tara Herbert [01:44:53] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] It's like, she can pay for her

Tara Herbert [01:44:55] hair, but she can't pay any. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:59] That's a microaggression.

Tara Herbert [01:45:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was just like. And at the time, it just, like, infuriated me, you know, But I felt like the best thing to do was, like, be Christlike, swallow it back. Like, my mission was where I was gonna change everything that was, like, bad about me. Right. Like, I was going to learn humility to hold my tongue and not say anything. And so I. I didn't. Right. Like, I just was like, okay, like this. I just need to learn humility.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:32] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:45:34] And she had never had a baptism there until I came. Right. And I think it's. Obviously, so many members wanted to get baptized once they saw, like, Right. Like, it was like when they'd send two little white missionaries out, two little white sister missionaries. And that's everyone's thinking is like, this church is racist. And then now that you have like a black missionary who's like, telling you, no, like, this church is good. Like, of course they'll convert after. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] So that word felt like coming home. You said.

Tara Herbert [01:46:14] Yeah. It was so much fun. There was literally like 10 others, 10 sets of missionaries in that ward.

John Dehlin [01:46:23] One ward.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:23] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] I've never heard of ten sets of missionaries.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:26] Nor I.

John Dehlin [01:46:27] In a single ward.

Tara Herbert [01:46:28] In a single ward. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Huh.

Tara Herbert [01:46:30] And that. Yeah. Because with the age change came a huge flocks of missionaries. And then they separated the Atlanta mission into three missions. So before it was only one mission. And Then there were so many missionaries that you had the Georgia Atlanta North Mission and the Macon Mission, and then the regular Georgia Atlanta Mission. And so that ward, yeah, we had 10 sets, and that's what everyone would say. They had a missionary book in that ward where they would take your picture as soon as you got there, and then you would write down the. The date that you got there. Like, they were so proud to have the most missionaries. And that ward had like, 3,000 people on the roster and only, like, 80 people coming,

John Dehlin [01:47:18] because it sounds like Latin America, basically.

Tara Herbert [01:47:21] I was about to say, because people got baptized to get on church welfare. That was like, why the ward was so big is like, they were like, get baptized. You can get on welfare, and we'll help you pay for this. And so when I got there, our job was to, like, we would just get lists every week of people to contact to confirm their address. And then if they were like, the bishop was just going through to tell people that they can no longer be on welfare through the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:59] So you were saying you started learning about the church's history. Do you want to talk about how that happened? And.

Tara Herbert [01:48:04] Yeah, so I feel like I heard inklings of it when I first. First got to Atlanta because of people saying different things, right. That, like, they would tell me on the street when we would be contacting that our church believes that we have the curse of Cain. And I'd be like, I've never heard that before. Or our church didn't let black people participate up until a certain time. And I was like, I've never heard that before. And then I started wanting to get more into church history because someone who we were teaching, he was a Mason, a Freemason. And so that's why he was willing to talk to us. He said, I've heard about Joseph Smith. I'm a Freemason, and I know about Joseph Smith. Like, Right. The Book of Mormon. And so we started talking to him, and, yeah, he ended up getting baptized.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:08] And

Tara Herbert [01:49:10] that kind of dove me into, like, Freemasonry and, like, the. Joseph Smith's history with all of that stuff. And so I learned more about. I didn't know about Bruce R. McConkie's book. And I read that. Right. I hadn't read all the way through the, like, Pearl of Great Price or D and C or all of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:35] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:49:36] And so I started reading all of that. And, yeah, I just was very, very hurt about what I found and very. Just like. I don't know, it was. I feel like it was almost Like a dream, what I was reading, because I was like, why would my parents not teach me this? Like, why would they not tell me about this?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:07] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:50:08] Because it did feel like a betrayal at the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:11] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:50:13] And it felt, like, convenient for them to not have to wrestle with that. You know, like a luxury to not have to even feel like you have to, like, give that information to someone.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:29] So normally missionaries have limited access to, like, books or the Internet. So I'm kind of wondering what your sources of information were beyond just talking to people. And then once you're feeling frustrated that information was withheld from you and even frustrated at your parents, if you had any way to talk to anyone about that. Yeah, those are two questions.

Tara Herbert [01:50:57] No, those are great questions. So I. The only things that I had were at, like, in the ward, you know, like, how there's the library. So anything in there is what I had.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:14] So you would just check it out?

Tara Herbert [01:51:15] Yeah. So, like, Bruce R. McConkie's book was in there. Mormon Doctrine and. Or I would ask other missionaries if they had this book, and they would send it to me. Even like, oh, my gosh, Tim Ballard's book on visions of glory. No, on Mormons and Mace, Freemasons and Mormons or something. My brother sent it to me to read. And so, yeah, that was really it. Or Gospel Library. When we'd go to the library to, like, email our parents, I could go on to the church's website and read.

John Dehlin [01:51:58] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:51:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:59] And so you're. You're doing the studying. Who do you talk to about it?

Tara Herbert [01:52:05] I didn't talk to anybody about it.

John Dehlin [01:52:06] So you're feeling this anger for your parents, for example, and you're just keeping it inside.

Tara Herbert [01:52:10] Yeah. The only time I would ask somebody a question about it was, like, the ward mission leader, and the answers would be really sucky. Like, I'd ask, like, are black people? Like, do we have the curse of Cain? And he was like, well, that's what Bruce Harmon Conkey says. Or like. Like, that's just like his only. He's like, I don't know. Like, that's what it says there, you know, And a lot of times, like, the ward mission leaders and stuff, like, they're converts themselves, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:43] Right.

Tara Herbert [01:52:44] Like, they don't. I don't know. I feel like maybe somebody in Utah would have more tact till like, if they were, since they're raised in it, they kind of know the cultural stuff. And, like, with, like, war mission leaders, they would just be like, yeah, that's what it says.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] Like, and so you're just, like, too bad, so sad.

Tara Herbert [01:53:04] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:06] Okay. Okay. So how did you. What did you do with. With this troubling history you were learning?

Tara Herbert [01:53:17] I think I internalized it a lot and prayed a lot to God to, like, why would he make me this way? Like, it was like, I felt like all those experiences that I had growing up of people mistreating me made sense and it felt deserved. Right. That, like, this is how God has it, you know? And especially being in Atlanta and seeing the poverty, It felt like I was just seeing my people suffer and that. Yeah, that it was. That it was true. Right. Because I'm just seeing people be so poor, you know, and women and children and, like, I taught a lot of single moms, you know, and I just felt like. Like, how else. When you're, like, morbid, you want to explain why this. Things are this way and why these women have to suffer? And. Yeah, so that was my way of explaining it was like, for whatever reason, like, God wants it this way. And so I guess that's just, like, our lot in life, right, is to be treated this way.

John Dehlin [01:54:49] And Mormonism takes it a little farther because it's not just that God wants it, it's that they deserved it because they made bad choices in existence, Right?

Tara Herbert [01:54:57] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:59] Oh, that's awful.

Tara Herbert [01:55:01] Yeah. And that's what I felt like. And I felt like. I don't know, like, in some ways, like, I related to these single moms of feeling like a whore and, like, feeling like just like I made these horrible choices. And so now I have to live with it, you know? And maybe if, like. Right. If they wouldn't have slept around or done this or known better, then their life wouldn't be like this.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:38] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:55:42] Yeah.

Racial Awakening and Struggle Mid-Mission

John Dehlin [01:55:44] So how did that make your mission once you start having this awakening?

Tara Herbert [01:55:49] Very hard. Because at the same time, I got transferred to an area, Barnesville, Georgia, that was like, being thrown back into the 50s in terms of, like, how I started being treated. Right. Of people yelling the N word at us to get off their lawn, telling us they're gonna get their gun. Like,

John Dehlin [01:56:21] so this is a white area, predominantly.

Tara Herbert [01:56:23] So it was literally like out of a movie, right? Like, you go over to one side of the tracks, and that's where all the black people lived. The other side of the tracks is where all the white people lived.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:34] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:56:35] And then they still. On Wednesdays, everything was closed until 2pm in honor of the slave trade. So, yeah, I guess during that time, everything would be closed so that people could go to the Auction blocks.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] What?

Tara Herbert [01:56:54] Yeah. And so they still honored that, like, all the way in 2013, right? They still honored that everything was closed.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:09] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:57:11] So there's an annual holiday or celebration.

Tara Herbert [01:57:14] It's every Wednesday.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:15] It's weekly.

Tara Herbert [01:57:16] Weekly where everything was closed. You couldn't go to the library, couldn't go to, like, the store because every. Nobody had work until 2pm and it was because that town was a slave town where they would do like, the railroad came through it, and that's until 2pm There would be auctions and they just kept it.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:40] Wow. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:57:41] Isn't that crazy? And so I'm like, even like, being thrown back into, like, well, if racism is dead, why are we still doing this? You know? Yeah, it was rough. And my companion at the time we were. I had a new companion. And she was great, except she was really sick. She had a cyst in her sinuses. And so she was dealing with, like, these headaches where she would get, like, vertigo and would just have to lie down. And so she's dealing with that illness. And then we're also just being, like, hit on every side. Like, black people hated us. Cause I had my white companion with me. I will say, though, that, like, the black people were a lot nicer than the white people and would actually, like, let us in sometimes, you know, but they still were mad, like, obviously, you know, Whereas white people just, like, I was just full on scared for my life, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:58] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:58:59] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:58:59] And people still had their Confederate flags hanging, you know, And I learned very quickly, like, to not go to the houses that had any Confederate flag hanging because it's just dangerous, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:59:18] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:59:21] Yeah. And my mission president just, like. I don't know. Like, I felt like the other missionaries that I were was with. My companion, like, was so great during that time and, like. Like, I don't know how she was able to, like, have empathy for, like, the situation, but, like, did it make me feel crazy, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:59:50] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:59:51] Whereas I feel like my mission president or other people, like, you know, like the Elder Holland talk of, like, I think he gave it to missionaries of like, you have to go through Gethsemane to get out the other side. Like, the savior had to do it. You have to do it. That was like the suggestion to watch, to, like, toughen up, you know, it was like, nobody's understanding. Like, yes. Like, the stress and the fear that I was under, like, and again, it made me, like, upset with my parents to be like, why didn't you tell me? Like, I don't know. Like, it Was just.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:39] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:00:40] It was scary and it was a lot like emotionally to deal with.

John Dehlin [02:00:46] You just didn't know the world could be like this, right?

Tara Herbert [02:00:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:50] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:00:51] And like I would take like a microaggression over full on aggression any day, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:00:58] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:00:59] And then it's like for me, like, like I'm. I'm an achiever. Right. Like I wanted to hit the numbers and like get baptisms, you know, I wanted to do what was expected and then to feel like people are like, oh, you guys are just like sewing successful and like not realizing like what we were up against.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:29] Yes. How big it was.

Tara Herbert [02:01:30] Yeah. And like no matter how much you tried to explain to them, like just the insensitivity of like the situation, like I would have rather them give my companion, like a white companion or me a black companion. So at least like.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:48] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:01:49] We could like have one side of the tracks to teach you, you know.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:53] Yeah. It's like by your partnership having one,

Tara Herbert [02:01:57] it made it worse.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:58] It's like a walking battlefield.

Tara Herbert [02:02:00] Yeah. You're like. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:02:03] Because the town was so polarized.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:04] Yes.

Tara Herbert [02:02:05] Yeah. Yeah. It was just so. I don't know. And it's not good for your health. Like I can't imagine, like, like there was. I don't know. And it just brought a whole new level to, to being Mormon. Right. Like, to hearing the white is pure. Like, I didn't love the temple. Right. But I didn't also, like, I feel like being in this town made me absolutely hate the temple. I hated wearing white. I hated like just the whole idea of the temple. It made me angry that it was two white people. Like up on the screen, I just

John Dehlin [02:02:55] was like, as Adam and Eve.

Tara Herbert [02:02:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:57] Yes.

Tara Herbert [02:02:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:59] So what made you. What about this experience? What's this town called again?

Tara Herbert [02:03:04] Barnesville, Georgia.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] What about this town in Barnesville made you, made you start to reflect back on white Adam and Eve and white dress in the temple. How did. Tell us, talk to us about how those connections got made? Because some say that has nothing to do with what's going on in this town. That's.

Tara Herbert [02:03:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:25] Symbolic. That's a religious rite.

Tara Herbert [02:03:29] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:03:30] What made that come to your mind?

Tara Herbert [02:03:32] Because it put whiteness at a whole new. A whole bigger thing. Right. Because it's like you have now people who quite literally believe that white is pure, not just like the color white, but the skin color. White is pure, meaning that black is impure. Right. Brown skin is impure. And so then you're going to the temple and the same teaching is being taught And I can't help but feel like, oh, this is like a calling card to, like, white is pure, as in white skin tone is pure. That's why they're not showing a black Adam and Eve. Right. Is because white is pure.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:17] Right.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] Or Peter, James, and John, or even Satan's white.

Tara Herbert [02:04:20] Right. Like, you can get a bald guy in there, but you can't get a black guy, like, crazy.

John Dehlin [02:04:26] And I've never, ever thought about that, that there's no people of color in the temple ceremony. Or at least not when I went.

Tara Herbert [02:04:32] Yeah, I. Last time I went.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:35] Everything, like, so much about the temple is white.

Tara Herbert [02:04:37] And you're wearing.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:38] The decor is white. Like, everything. Like, yes, you're wearing white, right?

Tara Herbert [02:04:42] Yeah. You're wearing all white. It just became very triggering. And because I was in the States mission, we went to the temple, like, every eight weeks. Right. So you're going often to the temple, and it becomes very triggering. Even, like, another set of missionaries were teaching these black kids that wanted to get baptized, and they didn't want to get baptized in white. They were like, can't I get baptized in purple or any other color? And they're like, well, white is pure. And they're just like, no, black can be just as pure as white. And they did not want to get baptized in white. And I, like, agreed with them. I was like, yeah, like, tell them, like, you don't have to get baptized in white. And then just hearing that a lot. Like, I feel like any time it's like, I could hear the tone of, like, it's. It just felt like we were talking about white so much, you know, and then the garments being white, it was just, like, so triggering because I was like, well, I didn't realize this whole time that white meant, like, literally, you have to be a white person.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:52] Okay. Well, that makes me maybe come back to the question I asked earlier. You're reading the Book of Mormon regularly as a missionary.

Tara Herbert [02:05:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:59] In the. In the Book of Mormon literally says white and delightsome. And it. It says dark and loathsome.

Tara Herbert [02:06:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:06] Referring to skin color in the Book of Mormon. Did.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:09] Did you read it?

John Dehlin [02:06:10] Did you ever have that awakening?

Tara Herbert [02:06:12] Yeah. I feel like it was all just, like, so upsetting. Right. Like, I was like, it doesn't. Like, at that point, to me, it was like, well, it doesn't matter. Like, what's the difference between a Native American and me? Right? What's the difference between a Hispanic person and me and my skin tone? Like, Right. Like, we're all. We're all not white. Like, so I feel like it definitely made me be like, oh, like, it doesn't matter if they're Native American or if they're Hispanic or if they're whatever color. This really sucks. And it's just, like, the only explanation is that's just how it is, you know,

John Dehlin [02:07:00] and that's how God is, and that's how God set it up. And that's how God's one true church is.

Tara Herbert [02:07:04] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:07] And this is all hitting you when you're on a mission for the church that, you know, created a system based on. So how did you. How did you do that? How did you. Because it's one thing to go through kind of, but under the high control. Gotta get up, gotta every day. My understanding is like, the schedule is quite like, how did you survive those days?

Tara Herbert [02:07:39] Like I said, I feel like I had a good companion who, you know, we would just cry together. That I had great members who I could go to and who understood. Like, I had, like, at the time, she had just converted to Mormonism. She was a single mom. And I felt like she understood what I was saying. And I was like, well, if she can do it and if these other black members can do it, then, like, I can do it too, you know? So I had. There was other members that were black, you know, and, like.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:22] And aware.

Tara Herbert [02:08:23] Yeah. And it's just, like, so hard because at the time, like, in that town, there was black churches and there were white churches, Right. So you would go. If you're Baptist, you would go to the black Baptist church. If you were white, you'd go to the white Baptist church. Like, the churches were not integrated. So, like, going to a Mormon church was the only time that it was. That was like, the only church in town that was integrated. So it felt progressive, I feel like, in some ways, because it was like, you're actually, like, felt allowed without hostility, to, like, be here, you know, and participate, whereas you could not, like, you could not go to. As a black person, to the white church. And so in my head, I just, like, I literally told myself that, like, that's why the priesthood ban was a thing, was so that the churches wouldn't be segregated.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:31] Yeah,

Tara Herbert [02:09:34] obviously it makes no sense now, but at the time, I was like, oh, like, if there wouldn't have been a priesthood ban, then there would have been segregated churches and we wouldn't have be able to, like, all meet together.

John Dehlin [02:09:49] Yeah, I'm trying to make sense of that.

Tara Herbert [02:09:50] I know literally does not make sense, but neither does Mormonism. So it doesn't really just any way anything to tell myself to like, self soothe, you know, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:03] To get through the moment.

Tara Herbert [02:10:04] Yeah. Even if it doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [02:10:06] Was your mission president equipped to answer any of these questions in a way that was satisfying or meaningful?

Tara Herbert [02:10:12] No, he would just send like in the area, like our area 70 was black, you know, like, that was the answer. It was like, look, there's black people.

John Dehlin [02:10:23] Like, oh, but he wouldn't come talk to you and help you understand or feel better?

Tara Herbert [02:10:28] No, I think he was just too busy probably to even read my letters. We. I don't even know if he read my. Because you know how you have to write your mission president every single week? I don't even know if he read those, you know, because there was like, at that point, over 250 missionaries in our mission.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] So he's like, what's the problem? We have a black area authority.

Tara Herbert [02:10:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:51] Everything's good.

Tara Herbert [02:10:51] And that's what he would tell us to do. Like, oh, tell him to come with you. And like, I feel like members were very willing to travel from like all the way to. Because Atlanta compared to Barnesville is like hours away, like two hours away. And they would like, do that literally to convert other black people. Yeah. And even in Atlanta, like, I had to sit outside of the Book of Mormon musical and try and convert people to. To Mormonism is just like such a weird. And they literally thought we were like part of the play because we were like here and at the time we, at the time we pass have pass along cards for the I'm a Mormon campaign. And so it was just, I don't know, like. Yeah, you do start feeling very like. I feel like other black missionaries that I've talked to, like, felt very much like used for. For to get other black members in.

John Dehlin [02:12:04] Is tokenized a fair word or not?

Tara Herbert [02:12:07] Yeah, yeah. I'd say that's like what it was to like. Yeah, yeah. So like, shut up about the stuff you don't like, but help us get this. These people in, you know,

John Dehlin [02:12:22] so as you, as you think about ending your mission and how you were up to the end, if you had to describe overall what your mission was like, what would you say?

Tara Herbert [02:12:37] It was very rough. I don't think I had the same experience that other missionaries had. Right. I would have, like, if I could go back in time, I wouldn't have gone because I just don't think it was healthy for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:54] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:12:54] When I was in Barnesville, I ended up getting really sick where my Nose was like, like so swollen. I had to go home for a couple weeks to get surgery. And so I went home, got this surgery and I didn't want to go back out. Right. And instead of having like a conversation about this, this is what's so hard about sometimes just the culture, I guess, of Mormonism is that we just don't talk about things. Like my mom and dad could see that I was just not mentally healthy, you know, and recognized that, but didn't have a conversation around it. Right. I still was not like released from being a missionary. So the whole three weeks that I was home, I still had to wear my name tag and wake up, read scriptures, yada yada. And while I was home, I was hanging out with. So the other two kids that got sent to the same mission as me. These boys, they came home early. So both of them had just like mental health struggles. And one of them in particular, he, I would say it was like a full mental breakdown where he had, was suffering from memory loss and these. So yeah, he ended up committing suicide while I was there. And. Yeah. And it was just like surreal. Like I'm like trying to recover from this. No surgery, you know, and then finding out that he had passed away. Just like there's nobody like in the community that like to like help when these things happen. And so I don't even think one of his brothers came home from his mission. I think he stayed out on his

John Dehlin [02:15:28] mission for the funeral.

Tara Herbert [02:15:30] Yeah. And my other close friends. I don't know, like, it was just so weird. Like, I feel like our parents like recognized how hard this was for all of us, but didn't, didn't have the tools to like intervene. Yeah. To like get us help, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:15:56] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:15:59] And I fought because like we all went to church like two days after. Like everyone was just devastated, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:16:11] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:16:14] But people were like bearing their testimonies. Right. His other brother had just gotten home from a full time mission and like bore his testimony. And so I decided that I would go back out on my mission and finish. And my mission president said that I could, couldn't stay for the funeral. So I left the day of the funeral, the morning of, and didn't stay. And I ended up, my flight was so delayed, I just sat on the tarmac all day.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:49] Oh, I am so sorry.

Tara Herbert [02:16:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:56] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:16:58] And I, I guess like I didn't think to call my parents because that's like a mission rule, right? To not like, I was like, I'm like set apart. I can't call my Parents to let them know, like, that I'm on the tarmac, just sitting here, you know, and I didn't have a phone. I was just alone. And so when I finally got to Atlanta, I was supposed to get there that afternoon, but I didn't end up getting there until, like, late in the evening, I guess. Like, my mission president was like, we've been looking for you all over. You need to call your mom, because she's worried. And my mom on the phone said that she thought I had ran away or hurt myself. And I don't know, like, it's hard to, like, realize that, like, that your parents knew how devastating it was for. You know, like, when somebody commits suicide, they say, like, it affects the whole community, you know, and it's like, I wasn't like, super close with this kid. I just went over to their house. He was like a friend of a friend, you know, and we grew up in the same ward and stuff. And so. But it just, like, I don't know, like, I feel like his death, like, for me not to be like, melodramatic, like, signified, like, the death of, like, our childhood, you know, like, we're. We're adults now and I just couldn't wrap my head around why or how somebody could do that, you know, it was just so mind blowing to me, like, of. I don't know, just so shocking, like, even to this day that, like, I don't know.

Mental Health Crisis and Coming Home Early

John Dehlin [02:19:03] And he had gone on a mission, right?

Tara Herbert [02:19:05] Yeah. He'd come home early.

John Dehlin [02:19:06] He came home early. Yeah. Like, there could be an entire podcast dedicated to missionaries telling stories of horrific things that happened on their mission that broke them or that caused serious depression or anxiety and suicidality. But. And that's when you mentioned the Book of Moral Musical. It's so interesting because the Book of Moral Musical starts out with this really idealistic version of missions. And it's like, Orlando, we're going to Disneyland. But then they end up in, you know, in an African country and there's warlords and people are killed right in front of them.

Tara Herbert [02:19:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:44] That Mormon missionaries have those experiences all the time. Margi's brother had people pull guns on them and, you know, like, hold the gun to his chest. You know what I mean? People. And people have all sorts of really traumatizing experiences on missions.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:58] Yeah. Where you're not protected.

Tara Herbert [02:20:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:00] You're young and you're not protected and you don't have resources.

Tara Herbert [02:20:04] Yeah. And you're almost like. Also, I feel like to. Compared to, like, other people, you really are A little bit less mature when it comes to how the real world works.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:18] Yeah, absolutely.

Tara Herbert [02:20:19] And so you have this, at least. My idea of people growing up in Utah is that they're so great, you know? And so when guys are rolling down there in Atlanta, rolling down their window and say, hey, do you need a ride? I'm thinking, yeah, sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:36] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:20:37] You know, instead of. I don't know. And then it's just all implied. Like, instead of saying, like, you could be robbed, you could be raped, like, you could this. Like, it's just like, here are the

Margi Dehlin [02:20:51] dangers, here what they are.

Tara Herbert [02:20:53] It's just like, it's dangerous. But, like, to a kid who doesn't recognize what is so dangerous, you know, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I literally went immediately back to my mission and I started having panic attacks after that.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:19] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:21:20] And it was just weird. Like, I can't explain how surreal it was to be like. I don't know, to be like, my friend, like, committed suicide a couple weeks ago, and people just be like, oh, like, just no reaction, you know, it was just like, give me something. Like, I don't know. And so it made me think that maybe I was just being dramatic for feeling something towards it, you know, and for feeling so. Just so much grief around it, I thought. So I would tell myself that, like, well, we weren't that close of friends to, like, get over it, you know? But, yeah, when somebody commits suicide, it doesn't matter how close a friend you are, it can still feel like a big loss. Even if you don't see them every day, you know, or hang out with them, it still feels like, I don't know, surreal to be like, the world is really sad, like, that somebody would do that.

John Dehlin [02:22:36] And that's just a lot to be raised in a somewhat idyllic way, and then to have all that experience all that poverty and trauma and disillusionment and awakening on your mission and have a friend die. That's a lot in a year, right, for one person to.

Tara Herbert [02:22:55] Yeah, it was in six months.

John Dehlin [02:22:56] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:22:57] So it's like, yeah, just a lot to cope with. And then to just be like, your parents, like, recognizing that it's hard, but, like, them not have the tools themselves to be like, stay home, like, go see a counselor, you know? My mission president had my companion at the time take me over to, like, the mission counselor's house, because he switched me areas after this happened. He put me in his area, you know, where the mission home was. And, yeah, it was just so weird. Because it wasn't like a traditional counseling session. And I felt like, so uncomfortable to have my mission companion there, plus this counselor and her husband there asking me questions about what had happened that I just pretended like I was fine, you know, because I was just, like, not gonna, like, be on it. Like, I don't feel comfortable. Right. In this situation to speak on something that's so personal, you know?

John Dehlin [02:24:14] Yeah. Mental health services on missions are its own topic.

Tara Herbert [02:24:19] That's right. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:20] That's right.

Tara Herbert [02:24:20] Yeah. And it was just. Yeah. Not the best way to go about it. I think if, like. Cause when I got to the mission and my mom had said she thought that I had hurt myself. Like, I just. Like the whole car ride home, it was just me and the mission president. And I just didn't even talk. I just cried the whole time. And he asked, like, if I wanted food. And I just. I couldn't eat. I couldn't anything. And so obviously in his eyes, he was like, wow, something's wrong with this, this missionary. But again, there was just no words. Yeah. Or tools to, like, give me the help. Cause what somebody I think should have happened was asking, like, do you want to talk to somebody about this?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:08] Absolutely.

Tara Herbert [02:25:09] But nobody asked me. He just had my mission companion drag me to this house, you know? Yeah. And when I started having panic attacks, I didn't know what they were. I just felt like I was like a failure. And like there was never enough time in the day to like, get everything done. Like, I just felt so overwhelmed, you know? And my companion at the time thought it was just Satan, and I thought it was Satan too, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:42] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:25:43] That's how I contextualized. It was like, oh, Satan's just trying really hard. Yeah. Because again, we didn't have the language around. I didn't learn what a panic attack was until like 10 years after that happened, you know, Just mental health awareness.

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:26:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] So how did your mission end?

Tara Herbert [02:26:10] So it ended with. I just couldn't wait to go home. Like, I was so exhausted. And at the time I didn't know. It was like depression, you know, because I kept. I kept waking up every day. I kept. I still followed the mission schedule. I still had baptisms, lots of baptisms, you know, So I was still doing everything, but it felt heavier and harder and harder to wake up at 6:30 in the morning and keep going, you know. And so by the time I got to the end of my mission, my mission president wanted me to stay because I said I wanted to go home at my original date. Because the three weeks that I was home, I was only home three weeks and they were hell. I felt like it was still part of my mission, you know, you're still.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:09] You said you were still doing all the things. You were still reading your scriptures. You were still. So also, yeah, they wouldn't allow me

Tara Herbert [02:27:16] to be set apart, so I was still technically a missionary for those three weeks that I was home. But he said that, well, technically a full time mission. Oh, my gosh, is 18 months. And so if you want to have been considered for a full time mission,

John Dehlin [02:27:37] meaning found, released, honorably is the term. Right?

Tara Herbert [02:27:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] To be given an honorable release, he's saying you have to stay an extra month. Basically, yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:27:48] And he. And then I said, well, I'll stay an extra three weeks. Can I go home in the middle of the transfer? And he said, no. And so I said that I can't stay an extra three weeks because I can't stay an extra. Because that would be extra three weeks. Then that I would stay. So technically I'd be extending my mission three weeks. And I just said, like, I was literally, like, crying. And I said, well, then I have to make the decision to be dishonorably released because I can't keep going. Like, I cannot. Yeah. But luckily for me, when I had my exit interview, he said the spirit had confirmed to him, oh, my gosh. That I was honored. Honorably released.

John Dehlin [02:28:33] It's so bizarre because you can serve 10 months and get an honorable release. You can serve six months and get an honorable release, but you have this roulette where you just had a weird leader who was being super strict and then making you feel like you should be grateful at the grace of him or Jesus that you allowed to.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:52] We deem you honorable.

John Dehlin [02:28:54] You gave 18 months. But we're gonna make you feel lucky that we allow you to feel good about your honorable release.

Tara Herbert [02:29:01] Yeah, I mean, it was. And on the time, too, like. Like a lot had happened. My dad had gotten cancer while I was on my mission. My brother, my youngest brother decided that he wanted to serve in the military. And out of all the things he could have picked, he picked an army medic. And I was like that. And we were like, in 2014, still at war, you know, and I was like an army medic. Like, that is like picking death in my head, you know? So I just felt really stressed out. And then on my mission, when I had come back, I got a really bad speeding ticket because these sister missionaries that lived with us, we couldn't find them. And they Weren't picking up their phone. And so I legitimately thought that they had been kidnapped and was so anxious. And then we found them, and then I wanted to make sure to get home in time for curfew. So I was speeding really bad. And in Georgia or just anywhere back east, the highest speed limit is like 55 miles per hour. It's not very high compared to Utah, where it's like 80 miles per hour. But it will be the same type of roads. Right. Where it's like a highway, but you can only go 50 miles per hour. So I, like, got a super speeder ticket, and I got put on probation on my mission with a probation officer and everything.

John Dehlin [02:30:32] You're just trying to obey the rules.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:33] Yes, I was trying to get home.

Tara Herbert [02:30:35] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:35] And time for curfew.

Tara Herbert [02:30:37] The officer was such an asshole. He was from Idaho. His name was Officer Woodruff. And so I was like, oh, my God, a miracle. Like, you know Mormons, right? Like, and he was like, yeah. He seemed like. He just, like, did not like Mormons at all. I was like, great. Like. And he's like, where are you guys headed? To the club. And I was like, I'm dressed in a freaking dress to the floor. Like, I don't know what club? Like, Amish club or something. Like, this is crazy. And I kept telling him, like, I'm just trying to get home for Kirk. And he was like, sure, sure you are. Yeah. Then my probation officer, like, was what? Yeah, I was on probation.

John Dehlin [02:31:25] Oh, wow.

Tara Herbert [02:31:26] From this speeding ticket. So.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:29] So much intensity. Honestly, you're holding so much during this time.

Tara Herbert [02:31:34] It was just a nightmare. The probation officer hated me. She's like, why is your. Your license a Utah license if you've lived here? I was like, well, we were called by a prophet of God. Like, and she was just like, literally, like, shut up. That's not what I'm asking you.

John Dehlin [02:31:52] That's not real.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:53] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:31:55] And then she was like, literally, like. And my companion sitting there, she's, like, yelling at us. Like, she's like, would you rather just go to jail? She's, like, telling me how awful she can make my life. I'm crying. My companions crying, like, just a mess. Yeah. And I was just so, like, again, like a child dealing with adult.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:22] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:32:23] Situations. Even though I was probably 20 by this time, I was still so mentally like a young 20. Yeah. Like a kid. You just did not understand the world,

Margi Dehlin [02:32:35] you know, and facing really brutal realities all at once about the world. Not just one brutal reality, but, like, layers of just very traumatizing Brutal.

Tara Herbert [02:32:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So by the end of my mission, I was like, get me home. Like, yeah, Yeah. I was very overwhelmed and I would say now, like, probably experiencing like, like ptsd, like, symptoms.

John Dehlin [02:33:06] Yeah, for sure.

Tara Herbert [02:33:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:07] I am not surprised with what you've described.

John Dehlin [02:33:10] Complex ptsd.

Tara Herbert [02:33:11] Yeah. So by the time I got home, like, I just slept for days, you know, like, it was so it's like I knew I had to keep going, but I just felt like a shell of a person. Like, I felt so, you know, broken down for Christ. Just like I had given, like Elder Holland had said my Gethsemane and I had suffered.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:39] And

Tara Herbert [02:33:41] yeah, I was so I was broken for Christ and for Mormonism,

John Dehlin [02:33:51] But. But not in a good way.

Tara Herbert [02:33:54] No. And I said by the end of my mission, I said, I will never leave the Mormon Church because if it's this bad in a. Well, I just felt like, if it's. Yeah. This bad with it, how bad could it be without it? It's probably just awful. Wow. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:20] So not okay. Yeah, so not okay.

Tara Herbert [02:34:24] Yeah. So I feel like it just brought a whole new meaning to broken heart and contrite spirit. Right. I was. Yeah. And I feel like I had given so much at that point, you know, like, my whole being, I had sacrificed my mental health, my physical health, really, too.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:47] Like.

Tara Herbert [02:34:49] Yeah, that. It felt like, yeah, I had paid the cost and now I can keep living. My family will be blessed. Right. And I thought they were. Right. My dad's cancer, he was okay. My brother never got deployed as an army medic, so it felt like. Like I had paid my dues for

John Dehlin [02:35:24] that, you know, Maybe you had atoned for your sin as a teenager.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:31] Right.

Tara Herbert [02:35:32] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:35] But kind of your. Your body, your health and well being. Right. Your psyche were the cost. That was the payment.

Tara Herbert [02:35:46] Yeah, definitely. And people would be like, even when I ever tried to mention to a friend or something that, man, I felt confused about my mission. Right. I felt like people would get offended when I said that my mission wasn't that great or that I didn't. That I would take it back if I could, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:36:20] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:36:21] But I think they just. Right. When people think about their own missions, I really do think, like, if I was a white missionary, it would have been better. And even if I was still a woman. Right. Because there's still things on my mission as, like, they just were not. Missions were built for males, you know, they really were. And so it makes it really hard when you are subject to all male leadership because they just literally don't have a grasp on. On it. And my. My physical health really did suffer. I, on my mission, started to have issues with. Now they call it polycystic ovarian syndrome, but at the time, they didn't know what it was, so they just said I was in premenopause because I just would bleed for. I was bleeding for two and a half months.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:22] Oh, wow.

Tara Herbert [02:37:24] Yeah. And so at the time, I was like, great, now I can't have children. And there goes that value. Yeah.

Post-Mission Collapse and Return Home

John Dehlin [02:37:36] So if you had to describe in one word what your state was when you got home from your mission, what would you say the word would be?

Tara Herbert [02:37:46] Broken. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:52] That's not what they tell you is going to happen when you go on a mission.

Tara Herbert [02:37:55] Yeah, no, they don't. They definitely don't tell you how hard it's gonna be. And I don't think people really would even understand. I don't. People didn't understand. Yeah, right. How hard it would be for, like, I thank God that I didn't go over, like, out of the country, because I could only imagine how hit and miss that would be.

John Dehlin [02:38:23] You know, I have to tell you, there are places in the United States that are worse than places outside of the United States.

Tara Herbert [02:38:29] Okay. Well, yeah. Yeah, that's great.

John Dehlin [02:38:34] There are a lot of people. I meet people in other countries, and they're like, how do you. How do you survive?

Tara Herbert [02:38:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:40] Like, with gun violence alone, they're just like, we don't have anything like that.

Tara Herbert [02:38:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:44] Ever like that. They're just like, are you. How do you. Are you safe?

Tara Herbert [02:38:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:49] Like, wait, I'm in America. And they're like, yeah, are you safe?

Tara Herbert [02:38:52] Yeah. And I. I guess I get my only other place. Like. Like, my husband went to Russia, and.

John Dehlin [02:39:01] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:39:01] Okay, that was not great. So I'm like, that might be. Yeah. Like, I could have gone.

John Dehlin [02:39:07] I mean. Yeah, there are.

Tara Herbert [02:39:08] Russia.

John Dehlin [02:39:08] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think. I think it's gonna make sense to have this interview be in two parts.

Tara Herbert [02:39:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] And so what I want to do for the. The final part of this part, one is for you to take us through the point where you're really starting to question the truthfulness of the church. And it's like, whoa, maybe. Maybe this isn't true. Maybe this isn't what I want to be. So you. Where. Where we've left off is you saying you felt broken.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] Where did it go from there?

Tara Herbert [02:39:44] Yeah. So I got home and went and got a job. My parents ended up moving, selling, like, our childhood home and moving to North Ogden. So I moved to Orem with an old mission companion and that is where I met my husband.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] And was he at uvu? Byu, just working?

Tara Herbert [02:40:08] He was at uvu, but we met in our singles ward. So our two best friends were dating each other at the time and they were. Introduced us to each other. Yeah. And I feel like it was. We connected really quick, you know, like, by the time we met, I had. I had only been in Orem like a couple months, but I had like dated everyone in the singles ward that I. I don't know that I. That was a. That I thought was attractive and available. Right. And so by the time I met him, and it was weird because I felt like I would just never get married because I don't feel like I had met anyone who I felt attracted to. Like, Right. Like. And I didn't know obviously, the difference between different types of attraction.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:11] That makes sense.

Tara Herbert [02:41:12] Yeah. And so I just was kind of like, guess this is like as good as it gets, you know? And I. Any guys that I had dated in high school, I kind of like contextualized it as like, well, they were like bad, bad guys. Like, they weren't like, righteous. Like, this is like just how like righteous men are, you know, like, they keep their hands to themselves and they, you know, I don't know. So it just wasn't. I kind of like, before I met him, kind of was like, well, I guess I'll just be single for a while. And it feels good not to have to think about marriage for a long while.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:55] So are you kind of saying that your experience dating before you met your husband, after your mission was kind of of void of attraction? Yeah, different. Even different aspects of attraction. You were just.

Tara Herbert [02:42:11] Yeah, I just was like, intellectually and physically not attracted to the men that were available and interested. Right. Like, yeah, I didn't want to talk about getting married or being a mom or those type of things. And like, the expectations for me, for our future, like, there just wasn't any great deep conversation, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:42:46] Yeah. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:42:47] And yeah. And yeah, I just wasn't physically like, this is like a really good looking guy. I would just be like, well, he's like, righteous, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:42:57] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:42:59] And in my patriarchal blessing, it was like, at the time it said that like, my husband would be of somebody of, what does it say, like, high church, hold a high position in the church, is all it said. And so I was like, yeah, these guys that are all seem like righteous enough to do that, that are really boring.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:25] But your husband was Different?

Tara Herbert [02:43:27] Yeah. I mean, when we met, he was inactive, so maybe that was the draw right away. Yeah. So right from the start, it was completely different because I was like, why is he inactive? How do I get him active in the church again? Yeah. And it was instant, like, physical attraction. And like the conversations we had, it didn't feel so boxed in to this idea of who he thinks I was, but like a genuine conversation of, like, wanting to know who I was, you know, instead of just this view of like, this is how all women are. This is like what all women want. It was like actually like a conversation, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:44:17] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:44:17] Yeah. And so two weeks into knowing each other, we started sleeping together.

John Dehlin [02:44:22] Whoa.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:23] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:44:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:44:26] But you had said on your mission, I'm never leaving the church. That's. I mean, in Mormonism, that's the sin next to murder.

Tara Herbert [02:44:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:34] So how are you? And you knew that. And you had done all this atoning on your mission to atone. And I'm saying atone in air quotes for those who are just listening and not viewing. You had atoned for all that, quote, bad behavior before your mission. Now you're not only jumping right back into it, but you're actually having sex.

Tara Herbert [02:44:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:54] How was that for you with God, with your, you know, spirituality, with your sense of self worth?

Tara Herbert [02:45:01] It was like, devastating. And like I had done something. I had gone back and created a bigger mistake.

John Dehlin [02:45:14] Now backslid, Right?

Tara Herbert [02:45:15] Yeah. And then also it was so easy with him. Right. Like, it was so, like. I don't know how to explain it. Like, this was my person. And I also didn't feel bad because it was so. I think, like, any experience that most people would want. Right. Like, it was like.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:39] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:45:41] So beautiful, you know, Like, I don't know how to explain it.

John Dehlin [02:45:43] It was a loving connection. Partner.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:45] I was gonna say you've gone through recently an experience where you were so isolated in many ways, you know, went through, like, was there an aspect of it that was healing to connect with another person and to feel seen and to have your experiences feel seen?

Tara Herbert [02:46:04] Yeah. I think, like, that was probably huge. Like, we were both hurting. Like, for him, he had also had a very hard mission experience and that was, like, why he was inactive. So, like, my husband also didn't serve a mission until he was 21. Just. Cause he didn't want to go yet. Like, so he decided to wait. And so it was like. It was like we could have conversations around that and not feel like the other one. Like you were doing something, like, bad. Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:47] You were going off Script from the Truman Show.

Tara Herbert [02:46:50] Exactly. Kind of like it was like this was the person who could like, finally understand and like not. And like recognize that, like those things were hard, you know, like, and not just pretend, like it was all okay, okay. And could admit to, like, I feel like at that time I wasn't feeling. I didn't admit to feeling like mistreated. Right. Or by. By like my mission president or the church. Or the church or anything. You know, I wasn't willing to admit that. And I don't know if my husband was either. Like, at the time, he was very much. We were still very much like, yeah, like, that's just how it is, you know?

John Dehlin [02:47:38] And now is he. I asked this for the understanding of the context. Is he white? Is he a person of color?

Tara Herbert [02:47:45] Yeah. So he's half black.

John Dehlin [02:47:47] Okay.

Tara Herbert [02:47:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:48] And what was his. Just briefly his background?

Tara Herbert [02:47:52] So his mom was a single mom her whole life. His whole life. She had met his dad and similarly, just like a one night stand. She was very Mormon. She also had served a mission back when that was like unheard of for women to even go on a mission.

John Dehlin [02:48:16] She was white.

Tara Herbert [02:48:17] Yeah, she was white. And so she never married his dad. He didn't really see his dad that much growing up. He just wasn't around to visit. He was a very laid back Jamaican man. Yeah. And so his mom was going to place him for adoption, but decided to not place him for adoption. So. Yeah. So she raised him as a single mom.

John Dehlin [02:48:51] And probably a few people are going to really care about this. But just out of a coincidence, your husband's mom is former Utah Governor Gary Herbert's sister, right?

Tara Herbert [02:49:02] Correct. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:49:03] That's why your last name's Herbert.

Tara Herbert [02:49:05] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:49:06] So Governor Gary Herbert is your dad's uncle, your husband's uncle, right?

Tara Herbert [02:49:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:49:12] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:12] All right.

Tara Herbert [02:49:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:13] Okay.

Tara Herbert [02:49:13] That is his uncle. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:14] Okay. So he was. He would. He. So he ended up. He was raised Mormon. Ish. But served his mission late.

Tara Herbert [02:49:22] Yeah. So he's definitely raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:49:24] Okay.

Tara Herbert [02:49:26] I think, like a lot of times when people, I don't know, like, I feel like he was raised Mormon, but like in his mom's family, he has family members who have had addiction. Right. And even Gary. Right. Was from his mom's first marriage.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:51] Right.

Tara Herbert [02:49:51] So like my husband's mom's mom, like his grandma got divorced when. At a time when it was like crazy to get divorced, you know. So they kind of have always just been very much. Even though they're Mormon, very much their own people doing things that they feel like, they have to do, you know, like, sticking to. I feel like my husband is very much like. I don't know, just so I would have never, like, been able to be like, no, I just don't want to go on a mission yet. You know, like, they did it their own way. Yes, their own way.

Marriage, Intimacy, and Early Married Life

John Dehlin [02:50:37] So y' all were married how soon after you kind of fell in love?

Tara Herbert [02:50:42] A year later, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:45] And was it temple marriage?

Tara Herbert [02:50:47] No, it was not.

John Dehlin [02:50:48] Okay. Was that, for you, a disappointment? A bad thing? A good thing?

Tara Herbert [02:50:53] A bad thing? Yeah, very bad thing. Because we would go, like, immediately after and confess after sex. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:05] Okay. Confess to the bishop. Okay.

Tara Herbert [02:51:08] And so this of your singles. Word. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:10] Okay.

Tara Herbert [02:51:11] This was the first time I, like, had experienced this aspect of it.

John Dehlin [02:51:17] I call it the shame parade.

Tara Herbert [02:51:19] Yeah. Because at first, I really didn't feel like there was part of me that was like, I don't feel bad because, like, this is, like, my person.

John Dehlin [02:51:29] It's love.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:51:31] And it's developmentally healthy and normal.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:32] The experience of it, if your experience of it is like, oh, like you've described exactly.

Tara Herbert [02:51:38] Yeah. And it was safe, and it was so great, you know? And so I didn't feel bad until I went to confess. And I knew. I felt like I have to confess because it's, like, the right thing to do, you know? But at this point, because we had both gone through the temple and served missions, it was, like, just intense. Like, threatened to, like, ex for my husband to be disfellowshipped. Luckily, I'm a woman, so I didn't get the same threatening. Like, he was saying that my husband would need to have a disciplinary council. Yeah. And just like that, we couldn't take the sacrament. My husband felt so ashamed. He, like, wouldn't even wear his garments. Didn't feel, like, worthy to wear his garments. I had no other underwear, so I still wore mine.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:52] This is so hard. This is hard. Especially, you know, with the context of what you've both just kind of been through.

Tara Herbert [02:53:00] Yeah. No, it was so hard. Like. Yeah. I really felt like. I don't know. It was like, before I had felt. Always felt like, yeah, like, maybe I'm a whore, and maybe I'm okay. Like, that's fine. You know, this was like, no, you are, like, scum. Like, this is, like, disgusting that you would do this, you know,

Margi Dehlin [02:53:30] it just

Tara Herbert [02:53:30] felt a lot heavier than maybe when I was a teenager. And it felt even weirder because it also was like, this is the only person I've slept with. And not only that, this is the only person I want to sleep with. Like, I'm not even, like, saying that. I'm.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:47] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:53:47] Like, we want to get married, you know, and so then you have that discussion of, well, you can either stop sleeping together for a year or get married civilly, and then in a year, you can get married in the temple. And that was so hard to, like, tell my parents. I ended up going to a different singles ward because I moved areas at the time. And that singles ward bishop was way nicer, but it was also awkward because he knew who my parents were. I grew up with his daughter. We were friends, but I feel like he did the best he could. Like, he just said that. What did he say? Oh, he's like, well, you. He's like, you would have felt guilty either way, though, if you. Right. He's like, I don't even know what he said. He was like, you would have felt guilty on your wedding night still. Like, he's like, we can't keep doing this, like, in the church where we make kids feel guilty for, like, normal behavior, you know? He's like. Because you would have felt this way on your wedding night and done it the right way, you know? And so he was like, you should talk to your parents if your parents are upset or disown you or whatever. He's like, that's on them, not on you. Yeah. And then he talked to the other singles ward bishop so that my husband didn't have to have a disciplinary council. Yeah. So it was a lot.

John Dehlin [02:55:38] They take something so healthy. It's like, this could have been the most amazing, wonderful experience of finding your true love, finding someone safe, having healthy, consensual sex, building bonds, something just otherwise, like a dream. And then there's this whole layer of shame and guilt and feeling worthless, you know, that they lay on top of

Margi Dehlin [02:56:04] it and stress and feeling like you're going to disappoint your parents. And then everyone. Then you've got the public, like, part of that. Where then the shame. Everyone knows.

Tara Herbert [02:56:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:13] Make assumptions.

John Dehlin [02:56:14] Yeah. Because if you send out the wedding announcements and it's not in the temple, up, everybody. What. What. What do Mormons draw as a conclusion from that?

Margi Dehlin [02:56:23] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:56:23] You obviously slept together.

John Dehlin [02:56:24] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:56:25] Like, yeah. I think that was, like, probably the hardest part of it was, like, everyone knowing. And even, like, at the time, like, oh, my gosh, it was just so awkward. Like, and it didn't have to be, like, at the time, I was 21 years old. I am an adult, and it's like, I moved into my Brother's basement and they have a conversation with me about not bringing my then husband, who was my boyfriend over. Like we can't sleep together there. It's just like awkward. Like that's so weird to be like, like I don't know. I just think nobody else would care like if you're living in their basement apartment and have a boyfriend and to like have a conversation like that.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:19] That's right.

Tara Herbert [02:57:20] Was just so uncomfortable for me. So it felt like the only time I was talked to about sex was. Was in a shaming. Like it was shame. Shame based, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:57:34] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:57:35] Like my parents had never talked to me about sex before. Right. And now it's just like to tell me that you guys can't have sex.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:42] The rule.

Tara Herbert [02:57:43] Yeah, the rule.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:45] That's right.

Tara Herbert [02:57:47] So yeah, we did the whole.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:49] And Even as a 21 year old, you're still living in a very parent child. Like you're 21.

Tara Herbert [02:57:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:58] So. But there's like no independent world for you or a recognition kind of that you're older and even that some things can be private. You can choose as you get older to keep things just for you that your parent doesn't. Let's just say have to know.

John Dehlin [02:58:18] Or just the entire community or a

Margi Dehlin [02:58:20] bishop or the entire community. So it's like it puts you back in like a very young child. Like.

Tara Herbert [02:58:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:29] Now here's what we're gonna have to do about that now.

Tara Herbert [02:58:32] Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. I felt like just caught between two worlds. Cause technically I still had just gone back from my mission and still needed my parents help to like still dependent. Yeah, like get back on my feet. Right. Like the jobs we're working are minimum wage job. So your parents are still helping you out with rent or gas money or whatever. Yeah. So they still have like, I guess in Mormonism they feel like they still have a say and it's not, it's not always free. The money that they give you.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:15] Right.

Tara Herbert [02:59:16] Comes with stipulations.

John Dehlin [02:59:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so you got civilly married.

Tara Herbert [02:59:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:23] You. You made it through the shame parade.

Tara Herbert [02:59:26] Yes, we got married at the governor's mansion.

John Dehlin [02:59:29] Yeah. I was going to say. So was Gary Herbert governor at the time?

Tara Herbert [02:59:33] Yeah, he was.

John Dehlin [02:59:34] So you were married at the governor's mansion while your husband's uncle was governor.

Tara Herbert [02:59:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] Having walked through the Mormon sex shame parade.

Tara Herbert [02:59:43] Yeah. And he, my husband was living at the governor's mansion at the time because he was going to school at the U. So he lived there for a little bit. But he, Gary was Great. Like he. I feel like everyone was really great, like at least in our family wise. Like when my husband's mom found out that we were sleeping together was very awkward. She walked in the morning after into his bedroom and I, Yeah. Was asleep, not clothed under blankets. So it was very.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:27] Hi there. Yeah, morning to you.

Tara Herbert [03:00:29] Very awkward. And then my husband and her, I could hear them arguing up upstairs because she was like, you've ruined her life. Like, and maybe some of that was a little bit projection of her past situation, you know, her vulnerability. Yeah. But yeah, she's very devastated and I'm shocked. Like, I'm always shocked that my husband like could like bravely just like stand his ground because I would have just avoided the conversation and gone to work and never spoke. And that's what I've done. We've never spoken of it with my mother in law.

John Dehlin [03:01:11] With your mother in law. About that time. Oh. Oh, wow.

Tara Herbert [03:01:14] Yeah. Because I feel like I'm just like, this is so awkward. But yeah, we still. I feel like Gary was nice to let us get married there and he was very nice of not making us feel. Everyone was very nice of not making us feel ashamed of. Right. And like was just like, yeah, it happens. So. And he even gave us the day we got married. He like dedicated it as like a national. It was like a Utah something day. I don't know. So that was also nice. I feel like they like went out of their way to make it very, very nice.

John Dehlin [03:01:59] Nice.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:59] Yeah. Honor your love.

Tara Herbert [03:02:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:04] As you're talking, I'm like, it's a wonder we can sexually heal from these

Tara Herbert [03:02:10] things because you're just all the things

Margi Dehlin [03:02:13] around your, your sexual identity, your sexual exploit, it's just, It's a doozy.

Tara Herbert [03:02:20] Yeah. It's crazy that I. Yeah. So crazy.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:25] It's a wonder. It's a wonder.

Tara Herbert [03:02:27] Yeah. And it's like weird too because it's like I literally didn't even talk to my parents about sex. Like, even after my husband were. And I were still sleeping together, it would have been nice to like know a little bit more how things worked because I. We still were just like figuring it

John Dehlin [03:02:44] out on our own, you know, YouTubing it.

Tara Herbert [03:02:48] Seriously. Except we didn't feel comfortable googling it because that would be pornography to Google.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:55] Anything to be clear. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:00] Okay, so you got married. Did you get sealed in the temple?

Tara Herbert [03:03:03] Yes. So we got sealed a year later.

John Dehlin [03:03:05] Okay.

Tara Herbert [03:03:06] And I got pregnant three months.

John Dehlin [03:03:09] Oh.

Tara Herbert [03:03:09] After we got married.

John Dehlin [03:03:10] Okay.

Tara Herbert [03:03:12] So it was very quick. We got sealed with our baby Our firstborn in the temple. Oh, yeah. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [03:03:22] And what year was that that you were sealed in the temple?

Tara Herbert [03:03:24] 2017, I want to say. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:28] Okay, so about seven years ago. Six or seven years ago, yeah. Okay.

Tara Herbert [03:03:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:34] Okay. Well, this feels like a natural place to sort of end part one.

Tara Herbert [03:03:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:39] Because that's. I mean, you made it to the Mormon finish line of temple marriage. Yeah, right.

Tara Herbert [03:03:46] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:47] Which is what we hear about in young women's.

John Dehlin [03:03:49] That's what they say is the little bit.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:51] I mean.

John Dehlin [03:03:51] I mean, the single most important decision you'll ever make is who you marry and where you marry. Right.

Tara Herbert [03:03:56] Yeah, I got one of them right the first time. The who, not the where. No, no, no.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:02] But you.

John Dehlin [03:04:02] You made it. You finally made it to the temple. Yeah, right.

Tara Herbert [03:04:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:07] You're going to say.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:08] Yeah, no, I was going to say, I feel like in young women's, this is kind of for the young women's. This is kind of where it.

Tara Herbert [03:04:14] Yeah, you.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:15] You kind of hear about the temple and it's all about the temple and all the things. I think there are. There's some language around mothering, but like, Relief society sort of picks up kind of that rope. So anyway.

John Dehlin [03:04:28] Yeah, okay. And so that's where we'll end part one is with your temple marriage. And what we'll do is we'll take a little break and decide when to come back to hear about part two, which will be about where your church journey took you after your temple marriage and, you know, starting to have kids, and where that's took you now kind of your Mormon journey, post temple marriage.

Tara Herbert [03:04:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:04:58] Is that all right?

Tara Herbert [03:04:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:59] Is there still more story to go?

Tara Herbert [03:05:01] Oh, there's so much more to go.

John Dehlin [03:05:04] This has been really valuable, really powerful for me and I know for Margi, so thank you for what you've been willing to share.

Tara Herbert [03:05:13] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:05:14] I mean, I've done 1800 hours of this, and this has been really informative and enlightening and powerful. So thanks.

Tara Herbert [03:05:22] No, thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [03:05:24] Yeah. All right, well, thanks for joining us for part one of Tara Herbert's story. And Margi, thanks for being here.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:34] Yeah, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [03:05:35] Yeah. And if you, you know, if you can subscribe to us on YouTube, like us. Same with Facebook or TikTok or Instagram, wherever you are. And then also, just really quickly, we depend on your financial support to be able to do these podcasts. So if you're in a position to be able to support us, you can do that@mormonstories.org by becoming a monthly donor. Clicking on the donate button. Otherwise, we're super excited for part two. So don't go away. Come right back and we're going to hear about the Tara Herbert story, part two. Thanks, everybody.

Part Two Introduction and Early Parenthood

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1857

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. I'm here with my partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:07] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:08] It is January 23rd, 2024, and we're super excited to have back for part two of what I think is an epic Mormon Stories interview, Tara Herbert. Hey, Tara. Welcome back.

Tara Herbert [00:00:20] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] For those who didn't join us for part one. Stop this. Pause it. Go watch part one, listen to part one, and then come back for part one. We talked about Tara Herbert being adopted into a Mormon family as a person of color. She was raised in South Jordan, Utah. We talked a lot about how she dealt with being both an adopted kid and a black child and black adult adolescent kid in ultra Mormon Utah, playing basketball and doing all the normal teen stuff, but feeling a lot of normal Mormon teen shame. And we also talked about her going on a mission to Atlanta and the trauma that she experienced on her mission and having a friend die by suicide and eventually coming home pretty broken. In her own words, from her mission, meeting her husband and getting married not in the temple at first, the shame parade that followed, and then finally getting sealed in the temple with. To her husband and to their newborn baby. And that's kind of where we left off. And what we're going to be talking about in part two of this epic interview is her mental health, having kids, her marriage, and meeting her biological mom and then sort of her Mormon journey that included kind of a faith crisis.

Tara Herbert [00:01:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And so that's going to be what we're. I think we're going to cover. What did I leave out?

Tara Herbert [00:01:57] No, that covers pretty much all.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:02:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Okay, so let's, let's maybe go back a tiny bit to the birth of your first kid. Does that make sense?

Tara Herbert [00:02:07] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] And I guess you had some mental health, you confronted some mental health struggles with the birth of your first kid, and we should say you had them from your mission. You, you would, you know, for those who haven't watched part one, pretty much PTSD and panic attacks from your mission experience and depression and anxiety. So it's not like you just were mentally perfect in terms of your mental health prior to your baby. But.

Tara Herbert [00:02:39] Yeah, no, I would agree, but I guess at the time I didn't realize any of that. Right. So my first baby, I got pregnant three months after I got married. And yeah, I definitely didn't feel ready, but I think in Mormonism, Right. That's your only option. And it's looked like a good thing, like when you're now having kids. My husband was still in school, finishing his degree in information systems. I had already gotten my cosmetology license and was doing hair at the time when I was still pregnant. Towards the end of my pregnancy is when I feel like I started dealing with more mental health issues. I don't know, just feeling very. Just dissociating a lot, you know, feeling overwhelmed with, like, being pregnant. I don't. And I just didn't feel like how a lot of people will talk about, like, a connection to their baby right away. I didn't feel any of that. And I don't. I think now I would say it was from just like having a bit of attachment issues

John Dehlin [00:04:10] from being a doctor.

Tara Herbert [00:04:11] Yeah. And not really recognizing that at the time. I don't know, like, when I was pregnant, it was just like, yeah, I'm pregnant. Like, I. I don't know. The baby inside of me, I don't know who he is. Right. And people were. Could be weird. Like, I was like eight months pregnant at a Smith's in Orem, Utah, and a guy was like hitting on me. And it felt very much like he thought I was like a single black mom, like, trying to save me. So it was weird. Cause I was like, I wasn't wearing my wedding ring. Cause it didn't fit at the time, but I was like, I'm good. So just weird experience. I don't know. I just. I cannot think of any reason why a man would hit on a pregnant woman in Utah other than trying to, like, save them. I don't know or think that they're saving them, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:20] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:05:22] Yeah. So my first baby, I tried to go natural at first. I just really wasn't prepared to have a baby. Like, I. I feel like when my. I was just learning about how sex worked in general. Like, at the time I had my first baby, I didn't even know how ovulation worked or how to get pregnant, you know, like, that's how naive I was of getting pregnant. It was just like, yeah, like you have sex and a baby comes, like. But they don't talk about, like, well, technically you can only get pregnant, like maybe a couple days out of a month, you know? Yeah. So it's very overwhelming to just be pregnant and expected to give birth to a baby and not understand how it all works and not even knowing how to find the best care for yourself. Had I known now that like, you know, maternal death, 75% of them are black women, I think I would have done more due diligence. At finding a really good doctor. Because at the time I felt like the doctor that I found, like, he would say things like it wasn't an option. Right. Something that I was really afraid of when I first got pregnant and had heard about was episiotomies, which is when they cut you from your vagina to your butthole so the baby can come out. I was very afraid of that because I had talked to a couple women and every woman that I knew that had had that done, never had another child after because it was just so traumatic. And I feel like when I talked to my OBG at the time, he acted like it's just not an option

Margi Dehlin [00:07:21] to not have one.

Tara Herbert [00:07:22] Yeah, exactly. So my first child, I tried to go natural, but then I got an epidural because I just, it was too painful. And he ended up doing an episiotomy. And so that what that is, I didn't tear all the way, but I was one degree so like one part away from that. And it's just, I don't know, it was just so weird because I felt like that that was very traumatic. I don't know, like, everything was fine with my baby and everyone was like, oh, the baby's healthy, the baby's healthy. And I was again, just like this shell of a person, you know, like almost having a out of body experience of like. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:16] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:08:16] When I gave birth, I don't know. And not realizing, like, how much more support I needed and being able to not feel that way. But at the same time, that's when I started feeling like, almost disillusioned by the Mormon theology because I had given birth to my first child alone. I did it right. But when you go to the temple, you're taught that we all came from God and he created us, but I had just created a little a literal being. So it's kind of started to like, shatter this, like, mythology. I feel like, of like how, how the world began and how everything got to be. And it made me a little bit angry with like, the priesthood power because I was like, what do you know about creation? Like, I am creating and I did create. And yet you're telling me that a man did this all? Like, I don't know. And then there's like somebody, I can't remember who said it, but it's like, I didn't come from your rib, you came from my womb.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:44] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:09:47] And that's very much how I felt. Like, why am I listening to men talk to me about creation and what it's going to be like. And how it is when I literally have created, like, I'm the closest thing to it, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:10:04] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:10:05] And then even because, you know, in Mormonism at least, I was taught that, like, we would create other worlds after we die, you know, through the priesthood power. And it's like, that was weird too, because I'm like, well, I'm already creating worlds, right. Like, women create life, like, and yet it's the priesthood power that's supposed to do that. I don't know. So it just was a very weird place to be in. And I was very mentally not okay. And I think that I had a lot of PTSD from my birth. From birthing my first child.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Really quickly, from your outline, we talked last time about the whiteness of the temple ceremony being problematic. There were some gender disparities in the Mormon Temple ceremony that you also listed in your outline. Do you want to address that? Because it kind of touches on what you just said.

Tara Herbert [00:11:08] Yeah. You mean, like, when it comes to the actual temple ceremony of, like, the

John Dehlin [00:11:15] covenant that you make.

Tara Herbert [00:11:16] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] That you made and, and the veil and, you know, the, that, that sort of thing.

Tara Herbert [00:11:21] That was always hard for me. Like, I feel like out of.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Tell the audience who does. Who never went through the temple.

Tara Herbert [00:11:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] What you experience.

Tara Herbert [00:11:28] So you covenant to your husband as he covenants to God. And so it's easy when you're not married to kind of like, not care about that part and just be like, it doesn't mean anything. But then once you do get married, that's just not how I was raised. Like, honestly, I'm gonna blame it on my parents for not raising. Like, it's like, funny that they, we have issues with this, but, like, they raised me to think that things are equal. Right. And so then to like go and be like, oh, now I have to covenant to my husband as he covenants to God was so weird. It all is just weird. And it's weird to think that, like, you see this video of God, Jesus, and is it Michael?

John Dehlin [00:12:30] I mean, there's Peter, James and John, but there's Michael who's creating the world. Right.

Tara Herbert [00:12:35] Like, when they're showing, like, Adam, like, create the world.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:12:41] After I gave birth to a baby, like, I just couldn't pretend. Like, it felt make believe to me

John Dehlin [00:12:46] that all creation was men.

Tara Herbert [00:12:48] Yes. Because I just was like, you literally have not created anything. Like, and I don't want to. Like, the only reason why I'm like, downplaying, I guess, more so men's Contributions to creating children is because of how much my contribution in Mormonism is downplayed as a woman is so downplayed. And like, just from that video, Right. Of having shown three men creating the world, I would say is a great example of how they downplay how much they just, like, not even downplay. Just get rid of women when it comes to creation.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] Erase.

Tara Herbert [00:13:31] Yeah, erase.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] Because there's no mother in heaven helping co create the worlds. Even though in Mormon theology there's supposed to be a mother in heaven or multiple mothers of heaven in the temple ceremony, creating women are absent. Yes.

Tara Herbert [00:13:44] And so at that time, I felt like. And I still feel like it's very disrespectful to me as a woman

Margi Dehlin [00:13:54] to

Tara Herbert [00:13:55] pretend and act like men's contributions are greater than what a woman's contribution to life is.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Not the only contribution.

Tara Herbert [00:14:05] Yeah, exactly. Literally the only contribution. Not even like. Yeah. And then Eve's just there, like, stupid Eve. Gosh. She had to go and bite that fruit. Like, just putting Eve as this. I don't know, just like, dumb. It's very like 1950s humor, right? Of like I Love Lucy kind of thing. Of like, you're just dumb and there, you know, and making fun of women dumb and there. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:39] And like existing for what the man wants you to be.

Tara Herbert [00:14:44] Exactly. And like, don't talk too much. Like, let's cut her lines. Like, is that. That's probably like when the prophet was like, how much. How many lines should Eve have? They, like, were like, she says three words. That's too much like, get rid of it.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] Also, she's the one that disobeys and tempts Adam. You know what I mean? Just like you're, you know, like you probably were made to feel as a teenager the temptress, sinner. Right. The weak one.

Tara Herbert [00:15:13] And it's just. I don't know, it became very weird to me after having created literal life, having birthed this child to add to the human population of the world. That is literally going to keep the world going. Right. My contributions to the world is going to be for generations and to be absolutely just erased.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:15:45] And so now it's not even the erasal of just the color. Right. It's me as a whole being. And I just felt. And I still feel very disrespected in that regard. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I don't feel like I had enough support. Right. Like, after going through all of that, there was no one to. I ended up back in the hospital because I had a urinary tract infection, travel to my kidneys. And it just was like I didn't even know how to take care of myself because of the lack of education around our bodies, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:24] Yeah, yeah, it makes sense to me. I mean, do you, with the PTSD and you experiencing what you experienced, you know, after the birth, do you find that there are parallel themes at all with regard to, let's just say women and are what you experienced on your mission being this narrative when you went out, there's like this ideal and this narrative of what it's going to be, then you experience it and it's sort of like not really informed consent, no idea what you were really facing. And once you're facing something really traumatizing, no support, no resources. And some of those things can like show up in birth too, right? Like this idea, there's this narrative, there's this ideal, there's this expectedness.

Tara Herbert [00:17:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:19] For you to do it, no question. And yet you go through it and you're like, wow, this is really, really different. And it's my body that actually is paying a cost, which is beautiful and lovely. If you have informed consent and you're truly choosing. Right. But do you know what I mean? Do you find parallels between where it makes sense, like, oh, no wonder my PTSD was kind of triggered, and the lack of support and resources after?

Tara Herbert [00:17:46] Yeah, I mean, immediately after, by the time I had gone to hair school, I knew I didn't want to be a stay at home mom. Right. And that was really difficult for me because my husband and I had been raised right, that like the woman stays at home with the kids. And so there was no conversation around, like I just had to start working part time. There was no conversation around, like, maybe we could afford daycare. It's always assumed it's just too expensive. Right. Which it's actually more affordable than you think. And you might be able to afford daycare if you just look into the cost of how much it actually is. But yeah, it was just instantly. Now not only am I feeling broken again now, like literally physically from this birth, like legitimately, I, it, it was so traumatizing to like have to take care of myself and be like, what has happened to my body? Like, yeah, I couldn't even ride in a car, you know, because you're just like in so much pain, trying to heal from this, I don't know, from the trauma of birth. Right. And yeah, it was a lot. And then I think the worst thing for me was being at home now with my baby My husband had to work multiple jobs while he was in school. Right. We lived with my mother in law at this point. And he is just really gone a lot of the time, either at school or at work. So I'm just alone with this baby and not. Like I said, I don't feel like I really felt bonded to my baby when he was born. Like, I feel like my first thought when I looked at him, I had gotten such terrible acne while I was pregnant. And my. I looked at him and he had perfect skin, just porcelain skin. And I was like, he. You took everything from me. Like, you just sucked me dry. Like. And I don't even know you, you know? And right now I don't know if I want to get to know you because I feel really broken. And then to be expected to breastfeed. I really couldn't. I tried for a month, but it was just too much for me. Like, I just. I desperately wanted my body back and to be like mine again. It felt like I was just like, yeah. Literally used. Yeah. It was hard. It was hard to first have that baby. And I just kept going to this place of like dissociating really to survive the day. I feel like I just had to be on my phone constantly just to like tune out what was my real life. And I started just isolating myself from everyone around me. Like, besides for my husband or my mother in law who I lived with. Like, I really stopped talking to friends, family. I don't know, it was very. And like. Like you said, like I felt like, how could anybody want to be a mother? Like. Cause this is awful. Like, it just felt so awful. Yeah. And so then I started. I felt really empty, really lost. So I decided that I was going to. Maybe what was missing was my biological family and that connection, you know? You know, so that's kind of what led me to start trying to find them was just. Cause I was so.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] I don't know, maybe if you rekindled your connection with your biological mom, it could help you kindle a connection with your kid.

Tara Herbert [00:22:10] Yeah. Yeah, that's probably what I was thinking. I just was like, any way that I could, like, I don't know, like, reach out, find somebody who could help me, you know? Because I feel like from all the women around me, they just kind of were like, yep, like, this is it. Like, this is normal. Like we just suffer. And so this theme really is like,

Margi Dehlin [00:22:38] you're even using similar language to your mission. Right. The suffering that you witnessed.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:44] For people of color that you were like, oh, I guess so. It is some, it, it seems like very, I don't know, emotionally adjacent, I guess experiences. Did you, it feels like now you're in another situation where you are feeling bereft, overwhelmed. Were you able to, with your, you know, new child to have help? Like did you get help this time? Did you have resources this time with regard to your mental health?

Finding and Meeting Her Biological Family

Tara Herbert [00:23:22] No.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:24] So you faced that alone?

Tara Herbert [00:23:25] Yeah, no, I did not go to a therapist or anything. Like as far as childcare, I feel like my mother in law helped us a lot to watch the child. But I feel like, and I feel like that sounds like I'm like still so detached from my kid to watch the child, to watch my son. I had help in that regard in care for your son, which thank God because I don't know who would have raised him. Cause I was just really mentally so checked out and detached from reality. Yeah, I was so detached.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] So you're finding your birth mom?

Tara Herbert [00:24:14] Yeah, so I had done years prior to this. My mother in law works at Ancestry and so prior to this she had gotten me a DNA test to find my biological family. And I had done it before this but had just never looked at it to see if it found any connections.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:44] Oh.

Tara Herbert [00:24:45] Cause I just thought I'm okay, I don't need to find them, you know. Yeah. And so this time I actually logged in to look at to see if it found any DNA matches and it found like a bunch and a lot of first cousins and had a lot of, I don't know, like I think in Mormonism we assume that like we are the only ones that do our genealogy when it's very much worldwide people like to do their genealogy. So it had a lot of like up to date records and all this stuff in there that I was just like whoa, this is like insane. So when I was first adopted, my LDS social services accidentally sent a form to my parents that had the names of my biological parents on there. And so my mom made copies before sending it back so that I would know their names. So I messaged, just started going down the line of people who I was closest related to of who was if they knew these people. Right. I was like, do you know these people who had a child during this year in 1994? And I ended up connecting with my cousin who his mom and my dad were siblings. And he said I know they have one child together, but they've only ever had one child together. But let me ask my, like that's my mom's brother. And so he Put me. He connected me with my aunt, my biological aunt, and she called me and we. That was the first time I spoke to anyone of my biological family.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:56] Wow.

Tara Herbert [00:26:57] Yeah. Yeah. And so she said that my biological father had passed away because this was in, like, 20, 2017, and in 2013, he had passed away, which I started crying. Like, I just. I don't know, it was just, like, surreal to be like, I'm never gonna meet this person. But at the time I was like, in the next life, I'll meet him, you know? And then she said that she would reach out to my mom to see if she wanted. To my biological mom to see if she wanted to have a conversation.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:49] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:27:49] With me. At the time, I didn't know that my biological mom and my father, their families were not close, and they did not speak to each other like. Like regularly. Right. So, like, they just didn't talk to each other.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:13] Oh, okay. So kind of a family divide, is that what you're saying?

Tara Herbert [00:28:17] Yeah, exactly. And so she was like, let me reach out to her to see. So then my biological mom ended up calling me and. Yeah. And then I booked a ticket to Lake Charles, Louisiana, to go and see all them. Yeah. And that was very interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:43] So how soon after the birth of your son did you travel to go and meet your biological mom and kind of family?

Tara Herbert [00:28:53] Yeah, he was probably like, eight months old.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:56] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:28:58] So he was still a baby. Yeah, it was very soon. And my biological father and mother never told anyone that they had a second child together.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:09] Wow.

Tara Herbert [00:29:10] Yeah. So nobody knew about me.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:12] Yeah. You were a surprise. A total surprise.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Well, a secret.

Tara Herbert [00:29:16] A secret.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:17] Yes.

Tara Herbert [00:29:19] Yeah. So. Yeah. But at least I had the DNA to prove that we were related, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:29] Yeah. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:29:32] Yeah. And so.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] And I think people sometimes don't realize it's not like, just because it's your biological mom, it's going to feel like your mom. Those are wirings and networks that build up over decades.

Tara Herbert [00:29:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] That make you feel strong emotions for a human. Right. Not just the fact that you share DNA with them.

Tara Herbert [00:29:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] So, like, I'm curious what your expectation was in meeting your mom versus kind of the reality.

Tara Herbert [00:30:00] Yeah, I feel like my expectation at the time, I was still very Mormon, thinking that I didn't know what I was going into. Does that make sense? Like, I was assuming that maybe she had her life together. Maybe she. Like, the reason I was thinking maybe the reason why she placed me for adoption was because, like, they were on drugs or, like, you know, the typical. Like, maybe they were too young. Maybe they I don't know. I didn't really have high expectations, except of needing to just know where I came from. And maybe that would explain why I was feeling so. I don't know, just, like, wanting more. I don't know. Like my life was so not how I envisioned it, but at the same time, I also didn't really envision a life for myself, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:31:03] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:31:04] Kind of was just following the status quo of what's expected.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] So what do you want to say about meeting her?

Tara Herbert [00:31:13] Yeah, it was really hard. So I took my mom with me to meet my biological mom, and it was. I was expecting. I don't know, I. I think it's like regular Mormonism to, like, expect to feel like you're, like, going to save someone, you know? And when I got there and realized that she was fine. Not just fine, like, thriving. Right. Like, she had since remarried. Well, married. She never married my biological father. I don't know. It was like the answers that I thought I was looking for was not what I found.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] I mean, do you thought she'd be, like, a lower ses, Single mom struggling.

Tara Herbert [00:32:08] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] Maybe not very well educated.

Tara Herbert [00:32:12] Yeah. I thought that I would be happy. It would make me feel blessed to be raised in the family that I was raised in and grateful. But instead it just made me angry

John Dehlin [00:32:26] because she was doing pretty well.

Tara Herbert [00:32:28] Yeah. Not just well fine, like doing great. Better than me. Like, so.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:36] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:32:36] Yeah, it was very hard. And not even just that seeing. So my older brother. I have a biological older brother who they kept. And then I have a half brother who's like 13 years younger than me. Thirteen. Or maybe. Maybe like 10. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] That your mom raised.

Tara Herbert [00:32:59] Yeah. So she raised both of them. I was the only one placed for adoption.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] So it'd be like, why? Why me?

Tara Herbert [00:33:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:33:05] It made things, I feel, like, worse because then I was like, what? Like, I would have been just fine living here, and it would have been almost, maybe easier to, like, be raised around family and they, like, all of their family lives right there, you know, and so close. And, like, my older brother got to meet my. My older. My dad. So I feel like it's just. It was really hard because I didn't get to have a relationship with my biological father. And to be able to have to see that my older brother did get to have that relationship, get to have so much that I didn't get to have. But then I just kept telling myself to be grateful for because I was raised Mormon. At least I had Mormonism. Right. Because that's what we're all on this earth to get. So at least I had Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] But by that point, Mormonism hadn't led you to a lot of health and happiness. It had led to a lot of trauma.

Tara Herbert [00:34:22] True. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] But maybe you weren't at that point.

Tara Herbert [00:34:26] I didn't realize. Yeah. I was just thinking, like, well, it was all worth it because I have Mormonism. Like, at least I have the right religion.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Right. You know, that's where you were when. At the time you might.

Tara Herbert [00:34:39] Yeah. Because even my mom was like, well, you could do your father's work, do his temple work.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:34:52] Like, oh, this is so great. Like, we can all be Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Right.

Tara Herbert [00:34:59] And I just. I don't know. It was a lot to be able to navigate now. I just added more complexity to an already hard situation. I don't know. And I didn't realize at the time that the emotions I was feeling were grief, you know, and envy of my other brothers that did get to get raised here, and just pain, you know, from the things that I had already been through. It just felt like a lot.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Yeah, because you'd been through so much. You know, the upbringing where you always felt like you were broken and didn't quite fit in to the mission where that broke you. To the trauma of. Of the shame parade after your mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] To discovering poverty in Atlanta and the racism and the structural racism. And then the baby, like, you had been through so much, then you go to meet your mom thinking it's going to maybe make things better, and it's almost like it's another trauma.

Tara Herbert [00:36:09] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And the part of, like, I don't think I was ever raised with, like, the realization of how traumatic adoption is just in general, like, this is like, I forgot that, like, what I was experiencing, like, with my son, of not feeling attached to him was very normal. I don't know. And I feel like now that I know not only know how adoption trauma kind of works, I feel like what I was experiencing with my son was definitely normal. To not feel like I could create strong attachments, you know,

John Dehlin [00:36:59] it just seemed. It's like years and years of poor education or miseducation, not in the sense of, like, didn't go to Good K through 12.

Tara Herbert [00:37:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] It's just whether it's sex education, education about systemic racism, about poverty, about mental health, about adoption, about families, about emotional, psychological, well being, healthy communication skills, like, real impoverishment of just fundamental aspects of education.

Tara Herbert [00:37:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] Not. Not to be demeaning to your education, just no no. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:38] Which tends to come from open conversation.

Tara Herbert [00:37:40] Yeah. Really just wasn't, like. Yeah. A lot of communication in those terms when it comes to, like, emotional intelligence and, you know. Yeah. It was just a lot. And to add on top of it. Yeah. Now I'm, like, trying to reconnect with my adoptive family and adding grief of a loss of a parent that I'll never meet. It's just. Yeah. It added to it rather than helped it. And I think if I would have been going to a therapist, they probably would have told me to hold off, you know, and advised to wait. Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Anything else you want to say about meeting your mom at that point?

Tara Herbert [00:38:27] No. I guess people probably wonder why. Cause that's right. Common, like, if everything's good now, why did she end up placing you for adoption? So at the time, my biological father was on trial for first degree murder. He had been in a car with someone who the driver of the vehicle purposely ran over somebody that he had an issue with. He got acquitted, so. Because. Right. It wasn't premeditated. He had no idea that the guy was going to do that. Who was driving the car.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Your dad was the passenger.

Tara Herbert [00:39:13] He was a passenger, yes. Yeah. So he got acquitted. But also he had bipolar disorder that was often unmedicated. And so he was just, like, emotionally physically volatile, you know, so their relationship was very up and down because of that mental illness that he had. And so she just felt like she wasn't equipped to raise us both and thought I would be better off being adopted. And she wasn't like a young mom. Right. She was, like 25, 26. Yeah. And so she placed me for adoption, and I thought maybe hearing that story would help, but it did not. It made it worse because I felt even more angry that she was older. Like, getting more context behind it. Just like. I don't know, it did not help. It just felt more and more like I was abandoned, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:24] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:40:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Well, so you come home with that baby and things are actually worse.

Tara Herbert [00:40:33] Yeah. And now I have to keep up a relationship with all these people. It was very overwhelming how much family, like, was reaching out to me. Wanting to be Facebook friends, wanting to message on Facebook, wanting to talk, wanting to know me. And I just felt like I just couldn't deal with it all. It was too much to deal with. Yeah. And it wasn't until after that that I got. We got sealed in the temple after. And again, that was another thing that I felt like might help to get sealed, but because, like, finally I was back on the right path. But then getting sealed. I had never done a ceiling in the temple before. Right. So this is the first time. And it, again, just made me a little bit angry. So for those who haven't been through the temple, at the end of this video, you have to go to this veil, and, like, there is. What is it? A bar that you knock on that has, like, a little knocker. So that's the same thing you do when you get sealed, except now the person behind the curtain is your husband. And that made me so mad. And I asked the sealer if my husband was considered God.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Because the person on the other side of the veil has to bring you through the veil.

Tara Herbert [00:42:01] Yeah. But it's signifying God, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:42:04] Yes.

Tara Herbert [00:42:04] It signifies God.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] So in this case, your husband, when you're getting sealed, your husband brings you through the veil in the place of God.

Tara Herbert [00:42:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:42:14] And it made me very upset because. Right. That's when it's signifying that my husband is my God.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:42:22] Which is sick. Very sick. You wonder why abuse happens to sick. To tell a man that he's his wife's God is. I don't know. It just made me very mad. And this. All the sealer said was like, that's something you can ponder in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] And an orthodox Mormon who's trying to make excuses would say, well, no, it's your husband. They're. They're your. You know, they bring you through the veil, but your relationship is still with God. But just like you said before, you don't covenant with God in the temple. As a Mormon woman, you covenant with your husband, and your husband covenants with God. Also, you're both given new names. Tell everyone how the names work.

Tara Herbert [00:43:16] Yeah. So I'm given a new name that I tell my husband, but he doesn't tell me his new name. His new name. So another thing that further signifies to me that he is representing, setting God. Right. Because through the veil, when I first went through the temple with my new name, I told the. The officiant who represents God, my new name, to get into heaven. Right. And same thing with doing the ceiling. I tell my husband my new name to get into heaven. Yeah. So that was like, the one aspect of it that I just was like, this is so. I don't know. They probably should have just given me some answer. Any answer. Because letting that fester is what was my unraveling, you know?

John Dehlin [00:44:10] Oh, that was the beginning of the end.

Tara Herbert [00:44:12] Yeah. I think it just. That started those questions of, like, what does. Because like in Mormonism, the theology, there

Margi Dehlin [00:44:22] is

Tara Herbert [00:44:24] description of what a male's afterlife will look like. Right. You'll be able to create worlds without end with your wife by your side.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] Or wives.

Tara Herbert [00:44:37] Or wives.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:44:40] But for females, I'm just there, just the supporting.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] Actually, it's worse. You're making babies. You're making billions of spiritual babies.

Tara Herbert [00:44:50] Yeah. And that was like, also something that I just was like at the time, I did not. I didn't even know if I could go through having another child. I was just so, like, that was so hard to have my first child, you know? And so I just was like, there's no way. Like, that was not heaven for me to just, like, birth babies and stay at home taking care of them. That was hell to do, you know? And that was my. That's the rest of forever. So good luck. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] So you started doubting Mormon theology at that point or not? Like, is that too strong of.

Tara Herbert [00:45:32] Yeah. Or not doubting, but hating it, resenting it.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Oh, yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:45:37] Resenting Mormon theology. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] And that's a weird place where you actually still believe it but hate it.

Tara Herbert [00:45:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] That's different than not believing it and hating it.

Tara Herbert [00:45:46] Definitely st.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] If you believe it and hate it. What's that like?

Tara Herbert [00:45:49] Yeah, it was awful because it's like you're just trying to come to terms with it. It's almost worse. Like, it. I feel like it would be better to just like, not believe it, but to really. I still believe that that was reality and my future. Right. And now I felt deep regret for getting married so young. Deep regret for having kids so young, because I was like, this is the. I had the rest of eternity to do this. Why did I do this so young? You know, because it could have been. I could have waited.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:28] Right.

Tara Herbert [00:46:28] To not enjoy life at least.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:31] Right.

Tara Herbert [00:46:32] At least I could have enjoyed a little bit more. Yeah. So it was just. I don't. It was depressing making. Right. That's like, the thought that, like, this is reality. I'm just depressed, like. And then you start seeing it in other Mormon women. When you sit in the pews, you can tell the heaviness of all of us, of that realization. It's like, you can see it now that. Is anyone really happy?

John Dehlin [00:47:04] You know, one thing people don't know is that kind of. Mormon women in Utah have very high depression rates and prescription drug, you know, use and abuse rates. Yeah, Mormon women in Utah.

Tara Herbert [00:47:19] Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, we can't do. We don't sound like we can have marijuana or psychedelics. So, of course, turn to and.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] Or a rewarding career or recording education. Right.

Tara Herbert [00:47:33] Yeah. You just are literally left with a broken body, literally from all your children that you have and a theology that doesn't support you. Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] An eternity of spiritual baby making.

Tara Herbert [00:47:50] Yeah, yeah. And that's what. Yeah, I literally would just sit in the pews and I could just see it. And it's like, we're never. Nobody's having these conversations. These aren't the conversations you're having in Relief Society. Right. Like, it's not like, I don't know, it was like being opened up to this world that, like, I never saw before, you know, Like, I had an assumption that, like, everyone's so happy just being stay at home moms and doing this, and now it's like, oh, no. Like they've always. It's always been this way, you know,

John Dehlin [00:48:28] I mean, that's. I don't know, that's like a five or six year span. That just seems super hard and dark for you.

Tara Herbert [00:48:34] Yeah, yeah, it was very dark from

John Dehlin [00:48:37] the beginning of your mission, basically, to this point in the story.

Tara Herbert [00:48:42] Yeah, yeah, it was very. I don't know, like, I feel like getting married, like, at least I found like, somebody who I loved. But then even that, like, I feel like once I started getting this resentment towards the church, like, that was also hard on our marriage. Right. Because I felt like. I felt like my husband didn't understand, like, how shitty this was for me, you know, like, it felt like, I don't know, like, it just felt like, why was I so ungrateful? Like, I came from a great family and again, I didn't have the language to be able to have this conversation of, like, what's going on in my mind and, like, how I got to, like, actually hating the thing that I pushed so hard for us to have, you know,

John Dehlin [00:49:43] because you wanted it, you thought you wanted it.

Tara Herbert [00:49:45] Exactly, yeah. I was like, is this not happiness? Like, no. All I wanted to do was just work. I wanted to get out of the house and do hair and like, I enjoyed doing that, you know, at the time, but I felt like, just trapped. I don't know. And a lot of times people will say that, like, you know how there's like a lot of Mormon women influencers on, and they'll be like, it's because they love journaling. I'm like, no, it's because that's. They're out. That's finally how they got out. They dug their hole, their canal to the ocean. They were fish too big for the pond, you know, and that's how they got out. And now they can. Now they have the money to afford the childcare that they desperately wanted. You know, now they have the means to be able to have a reason why they need to go out with friends and do these things. You know, I think that is why there's a lot of Mormon women influencers, is because they're operating within the system still. You know, they had to create their own.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] I'd love to make an observation, if it's okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:02] Yeah.

The Split Self and Deepening Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [00:51:02] We had cult expert Stephen Hasson here, and he talks a lot about this idea of assuming the cult personality. And this isn't me calling the Mormon Church a cult just for those who are believing Mormons, but I think this. The concept applies, that we have our personality, we have our values and. And our tastes and preferences and our personalities that we kind of come with from birth.

Tara Herbert [00:51:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] It's kind of who we are. And in your case, from what I've heard in your story, you were big, you were strong, you liked to have fun, you like to explore, you were adventurous, you were sexual. You were a sexual being in certain ways. You believed you weren't naturally wired to have babies, but you are naturally wired to want to have a career and a profession. And you believe in equality and social justice and those sorts of things. That's who you are. But then the whole way, in your Mormon experience, you're being told, no, no, no, you're none of those things. You're small, you're quiet, you need to keep to yourselves. Don't be sexual, don't be big, don't be strong, don't be loud. Don't want education, don't pursue a. You do want babies. And it's like there's these two levels of who you are and the mold that the Church is trying to cram you into to the point where you are super depressed and unhealthy. Is that fair?

Tara Herbert [00:52:46] Oh, absolutely. It was literally the exact opposite of what I naturally would want to do.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] I forgot white. White and delights.

Tara Herbert [00:52:55] It's literally opposite of everything that I am.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] Like, the church is trying to make you as white as possible, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:53:04] And I think maybe that is. Maybe that is like a dream of, like, white women to, like, you know, be at home. But like, in the 50s, when white women were wanting that dream, black women were their maids and their caregivers for their children, you know, so maybe it was never meant to be in me to just be at home. Like, for generations, my ancestors have been working and caring for their families, you know, and it doesn't look the same as how I was raised, you know, it's like complete opposite. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:47] I think it's interesting because this idea of the split self, it feels like it emerged earlier in your story. Like we identified it, but it just seems like the more experiences you had, it's sort of like the bigger it got and the more split it got.

Tara Herbert [00:54:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:05] So the tension and then the mental health repercussions of holding both of them at the same time.

Tara Herbert [00:54:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:13] Would you say that, that it, it just got more and more intense and the cost got higher and higher?

Tara Herbert [00:54:21] Yeah. Because at this point when I'm feeling like I just want to run away and be free, I have a child, you know, like I can't regress, I can't go back, you know, or when I want things to just slow down with life again. A child like just adds so much complexity and speed to your life, you know. And so I, I start still having, I don't know, like the panic attacks that I was having were like off and on until we moved out. We finally got a house in Harriman. We bought our first townhouse. And I still like in my head I was thinking like, oh, if we can just get a house, like that's probably like, like living with my mother in law. That's like why I'm feeling this way, you know, let's just get a house and that will make things better. And it didn't. It made things worse because now I had less help with my kid and I was having more panic attacks like that. I just was like, like I ended up not even be able to go to the store anymore. I couldn't even go grocery shopping. I was so overwhelmed. Just mentally, like it was too much.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] You're also more isolated, right?

Tara Herbert [00:55:42] That's true. Yeah. Because now I didn't have my mother in law and like across the street was my husband's aunt. Next door was his other aunt, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:52] Wow.

Tara Herbert [00:55:53] So yeah, I was definitely more isolated because. And I didn't know how not to be, you know, I just like, if I wasn't at work, I was just inside all day.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Now sometimes the Mormon Relief Society, the women's organization in your local congregation or ward would be your support system and your friends.

Tara Herbert [00:56:13] Yeah, yeah. That wasn't my experience. I just didn't really connect. Like it's easy for me to be extroverted and just like, like know a lot of people. It's not easy for me to have Deep, meaningful connections with people. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:32] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:56:33] And so it was just. It was weird like that. That ward was so big and everyone was like our age. So you think it would be like the time of your life. Right. Like, everyone's our age. Everyone has kids our age. But I just felt so other, like, I don't know, like the conversations that they would have. I was just like. Like, oh, this is how I lost my baby weight. Like, I just didn't eat anything during the day. And then you can have as much ice cream as you want at night.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:04] Yes.

Tara Herbert [00:57:05] And I was just like, that's an eating disorder. Like, that's not like something to brag about.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:13] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:57:13] And like the conversations I was wanting to have was how much I hated being a stay at home mom. And these women apparently love it. Like, I don't know. Like, it just was not. I don't. There was just so much of me that felt so other.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:31] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:57:31] You know, that I just felt like it was too hard to, like maintain these relationships to get to know people on a deeper level. Everything was very superficial. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Dang. So how did you make it out of this?

Tara Herbert [00:57:48] I know. Well, I ended up going to my bishop and telling him I needed to go to a counselor. So he recommended me to LDS Social Services. And that didn't go well either. It wasn't really counseling. Like, so much of it was focused on how do I like church, how am I reading my scriptures. That I think. Like, I don't think. How do I put this? I think that you are allowed to be a therapist of any religion. Right. And it informs how you relate to your clients. Right. But when you are not upholding your ethical duties to do no harm and focus on the problem at hand, that's where my issue comes in with it. Because I think any good therapist instantly would have realized that I was at least suffering from anxiety and depression and want to get to the root of that instead of talking about scriptures and church.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:10] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [00:59:11] So I only went like 3 times before I was like, I can't do this.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] There is a conflict of interest if you're struggling with the Mormon Church and they're recommending therapists that are only going to give you counselors that the church would like and support. That'd be like, you're having problems with your boss, but you can only see a therapist that your boss approves of. You know, there's a conflict who your

Tara Herbert [00:59:37] boss is talking to.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:38] That's right. Who will share the things with the boss. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:41] Yeah. And so just so many Disasters have come from Mormon church, referred therapists, you know.

Tara Herbert [00:59:49] Yeah. And it just didn't help me at all. After the third time, I was just like, I guess nothing's wrong with me. It's like, maybe I'm just making this up in my head. And then we ended up moving to Pocatello, Idaho, because my husband's husband got a job there. And so at the time I thought, well, maybe that's my answer. Maybe I just need to be a full time stay at home mom. Because at first I was working part time and I thought, yeah, I'm tired, so maybe this is God's way of telling me it's time to be a stay at home mom full time. So we moved to Idaho and things continued to get worse for me before they got better. I started. My husband wanted another child. My husband was an only child, and so he did not like being an only child and didn't want our son to be an only child as well. And that was important to me too, to some degree. I just wasn't. I just knew I wasn't ready to have another child, though. And then we started dealing with infertility issues with. I just couldn't get pregnant. And so in Pocatello is where we found a fertility doctor. And I found out that I had polycystic ovarian syndrome, which just means that your hormones, you don't produce enough. What would it be? Just your hormones are out of whack. Right. So you're not creating like the egg that's supposed to come off your ovaries is not coming off, and it's just creating cysts on your ovaries. And so he found that out, and so you're not ovulating as well. So if you're not ovulating, you're not releasing a fertile egg to actually get pregnant.

Health Struggles, Doubt, and Leaving the Church

Margi Dehlin [01:02:08] And the symptoms, like, are. There's a lot of pain associated with it. Right. Do you have pain and bleeding?

Tara Herbert [01:02:14] Yeah. So for me, the symptoms were I just didn't have a regular period.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:19] Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:02:20] So like, this is from the beginning of, like, whenever I first had my period, it would come every six months, every three months, every nine months, every year. You know, so you're not having regular periods and then you're dealing with those cysts rupturing on your ovaries. So when I was on my mission, what had happened was all of those cysts were rupturing on my ovaries, which are painful, right? Yeah, very painful.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:47] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:02:48] And they just didn't know as much as they did. Now, at the time. And when those cysts rupture, it can cause scar tissue. So your ovaries don't like you. Just. This is how a lot of women become infertile completely because of that, you know? And so for me, that's what was happening on my mission was just, these are rupturing and I just can't stop bleeding. Yeah. Yeah. And so this doctor discovered that, and I started taking medicine to be able to ovulate and to be able to make sure that the egg was actually coming off my ovaries to be able to get pregnant. And then we started doing. So you're taking medicine to, like, hormones for all of this to happen. And then you're also. We were doing IUIs, which is inner utero insemination, where they stick a tube all the way up into your uterus and then your husband's semen is put into the tube so that you can get pregnant. Yeah. Which. It was awful. It was so painful for me to do those on the third time that we did it is when I got pregnant. I don't know if it was from that actually, or just naturally, you know? And I feel like prior to getting actual pregnant, like, during all this time, I was experiencing just, like, crazy symptoms, which now I know is this ptsd. But at the time I finally decided to go to a counselor, I was at my primary care physicians getting just like a regular checkup. And I said, I need, like, a referral to a counselor. Because he had said to me, the primary care physician was like, well, I can prescribe you regular, like, depression medication, but if you think it's something more than that, you can go to a psychiatrist and do talk therapy and get prescribed medication. So I did, because the symptoms that I was experiencing at the time was just extreme paranoia. Anytime it was hard for me to leave my house in general, but when I did leave my house, it was just really scary for me. Like, and I'm not laughing because it's, like, funny, but just because, like, looking back, I'm just like, wow, that was so insane that I, like, thought this way. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:45] Yeah. Were you. So were you fearing for your safety when you left the house? What things were you afraid of?

Tara Herbert [01:05:53] I kept thinking that somebody was following me, that somebody was trying to steal my son and that, yeah, somebody was going to steal my son and. Or that I was going to be raped if I left. And I had to leave my house frequently because at this time, my son was having a speech delay, so he had to Go to speech therapy, like, multiple times a week. And it was just anytime we'd go home, I'd take a different route home. It would sometimes take us. We're like, 10 minutes away from the speech therapy place, and it would take us 30 minutes to get home. Because I would just drive all around Pocatello feeling like somebody's following me and I have to lose. Lose them.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:43] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:06:45] Yeah. And then I started hearing voices. So at night, I would stay up just, like, constantly being. Waking up in the middle of the night, because I would think I was hearing somebody outside trying to break into our house or somebody in the basement, or I'd go check in on my son because I just was like, sure somebody was trying to steal him out of the window.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:12] So scary.

Tara Herbert [01:07:13] Yeah. And so I just kept waking up doing that.

John Dehlin [01:07:18] This is sounding a little bit. I have a psychology background. It's sounding a little bit like obsessive compulsive disorder and ruminations around safety that it's sounding a little bit like that ocd.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:32] Would you check. Like, would you get up and do things to try.

Tara Herbert [01:07:35] And I would go and check on him, and then I'd go back to bed, and then I would. I don't know. I was just so anxious, and so I didn't know what was going on. I did find out that, like, my brother also had bipolar disorder. And so when I did go to see a psychiatrist, and they started going down the list of things of, like. Cause I was experiencing it, it felt like mania. Because there'd be some times where, like, I was just so depressed, like, I couldn't even get out of bed. And then there'd be other times where I just was, like, extreme anxiety. But I could, like, get a lot of stuff done in my house. And then I was also very paranoid of somebody being after me.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:23] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:08:25] Constantly. And. And so it did, at the time fit the description of bipolar disorder and that, like.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:34] And probably not sleeping.

Tara Herbert [01:08:36] Yeah, I was not sleeping at all during the mania.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:39] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:08:39] Yeah. And then I was like. So I went to this counselor before I had actually gotten pregnant, was telling them that I was in the process of trying to get pregnant. And they were telling me maybe hold off on getting pregnant, and, like, slow down, you know, but, you know, you gotta have another kid. You gotta keep adding to the Mormon line. I think now looking back, it was PTSD coming up, and it was just manifesting itself in paranoia and, you know, like, genetically bipolar throat goes through your genetics. And I think it was just like, that's what my Body. The rhythm manifested. Yeah. The trauma that was going on was to have these. What seemed like bipolar episodes.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:32] Wow.

Tara Herbert [01:09:35] Yeah. I think I was very triggered to be getting pregnant again and not be ready to have another child.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:42] Absolutely.

Tara Herbert [01:09:43] Yeah. And just my body's way of being like, no, stop. You know?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] So how did you. How did you work through this?

Tara Herbert [01:09:54] I know. It's like, here's another one.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:56] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:09:57] I got on medication, which somewhat, I feel, like, helped in a way. Like, it helped for me to be able to start thinking more clearly and to actually sleep. Right. And not hear voices. Because part of hearing those voices could have just been the lack of sleep, you know? And so I think, like any counselor, the first thing is to do is to monitor your sleep and see how much sleep you're actually getting at night. And for me, I just was literally getting, like, three hours of sleep some night, like, and none of, like, deep sleep, you know? So I think first it was, like, getting rid of the sleep deprivation that was going on, and then I was just in a lot of pain, you know, I would wake up every morning, get my son breakfast. I would put on a show for him and go downstairs to our downstairs bathroom and just, like, wail. Just, like, scream and cry and just take a shower and just sit in the shower. And I did that every morning, just in so much pain. Like, I just don't even know how to describe it. It was so physical for me. The pain, like, in my chest, in my heart, I just was wailing. And then every night, my husband would get home, and I would go on a drive, and I'd go sit in front of. They were building the Pocatello Temple at the time, and I would just scream at God. Because I just didn't know, like,

John Dehlin [01:11:54] what

Tara Herbert [01:11:55] was wrong with me, you know? And so that's how I dealt with it for, like, a year, was just to go to counseling and just grin and bear it. And then I was even the second counselor in the Young Women's presidency, too, at the time.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] This is a lot of work.

Tara Herbert [01:12:27] I. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:28] It's exhausting because.

Tara Herbert [01:12:29] And I thought that maybe, like, doing that would, like, help me to, like, get out and, like, meet other people. It was hard. The area that we lived in, too, because, again, I just was not creating, like, deep, meaningful friendships, like. And I would blame it on, like. Well, maybe it's just because, like, people here are older than us, you know, by, like, 15, 20 years older than us. Maybe that's why. So then I finally, my counselor that I was seeing he suggested that maybe I should go back to work, maybe I should find a job in Pocatello, because it sounds like that was. He said it sounded like something that I enjoyed and that maybe I still need that. And he was. He was a really great counselor because at the time, too, I told him that I hated men, and he was a man, and he took it like a champ, like, I feel like. And wasn't trying to convince me otherwise, you know, and was super helpful to, like, ask questions for me to be able to figure myself out. Which I think is the biggest thing with counseling is, like, they're there for you to help to. For you to figure yourself out, not for them to figure you out, you know? Yeah. So I went back to work at a hair salon in Idaho Falls, and I met, finally, some really great friends. I know you. What is her name? So one of my friends, you interviewed her sister for the Parrot is her last name. Sarah Parrott is my friend. So you interviewed her husband, Josh. Yeah. And she.

John Dehlin [01:14:35] Kim. Kim Co.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:36] There we go.

Tara Herbert [01:14:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:36] Josh and Kim.

Tara Herbert [01:14:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] Sorry. Kim.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:39] Beautiful.

Tara Herbert [01:14:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] Brain burp.

Tara Herbert [01:14:42] So Sarah was Kim's sister. Kim's sister, yeah. So I met her younger sister at the time, was 19 and working at this hair salon that I worked at. She was a nail artist. And we started training. I would do her hair, and she would do my nails. And we started talking about church, I don't know, and Mormonism. And she was like. At the time, I was 26, and she was 19, and she was

Margi Dehlin [01:15:18] very

Tara Herbert [01:15:18] much out of the church. And so she would have. I don't know. She was just so blunt. Like, when I would say, like, yeah, but, like, the church is, like, good for my kids, you know, because that's kind of what keeps you in sometimes is like, how will I raise my kids? And she's like, I don't think so. I think it messes them up. And I was just like, whoa. Like, this is the first time I'm finally talking to someone who is having an actual conversation that's deeper than just, like, the script.

John Dehlin [01:15:57] Yeah, everything's great.

Tara Herbert [01:15:59] Yeah, it's true.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:00] Everything's true. Every day. You're breaking through the veneer.

Tara Herbert [01:16:02] Yes. And she just, like, was like, yeah, I don't think it's healthy at all for kids to be raised in it. I don't think it's great for women. I don't think, like, it's great at all. And it's when that was kind of where I started to question as well. Like, is this really great for me,

John Dehlin [01:16:24] because it weird. It can be in some ways toxic for you for so many years, and yet you reach age 25 of at least 5, 6 straight years of toxic misery, and you never allowed yourself to even consider that it might be unhealthy,

Margi Dehlin [01:16:44] that it was that not you.

Tara Herbert [01:16:45] Yeah, yeah. I was fully convinced that, like, I just needed to read my scriptures more and do this more.

John Dehlin [01:16:55] The thing that was killing you. Yeah, that's literally drink more of the toxic poison.

Tara Herbert [01:16:59] I'm just like, more. Yeah. And it wasn't until somebody. But this is also the first time I've literally had anybody have a different opinion than it is good for you, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:12] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:17:12] Like, I could describe this everything to a regular Mormon and they would just be like, yeah, like, life's hard. Thank heavens we have the church, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:29] So.

Tara Herbert [01:17:32] Yeah. It just was not until somebody brought it to my attention. And then I started making other friends at this same hair salon and another one of my friends, Lena, another person who had left the church, you know, and. Or was in the process. And like, same thing, like, was talk. We were able to have conversations about hard things that had happened to us and, like, validate one another and not just, like, keep going with the status quo. And they introduced me to a podcast called not so Molly Mormon, which was super helpful at the time. And then that later introduced me. They had mentioned Mormon Stories podcast on that podcast because I had driven all the way, literally from like Rexburg all the way to Wharam and seen the Mormon Stories billboards. But I always thought it was a faith affirming podcast. So I'd flip it off or yell at it every time I pass by. So the marketing on that was. Didn't work.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:52] You're like, I've lived some Mormon stories. Yeah. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:18:56] I didn't realize, though, what it was at the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:59] Yeah. You thought it was probably.

Tara Herbert [01:19:01] Why would I list. Because it said, like, faith crisis, like, on it at the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:06] And I was just like, oh, yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:19:09] And I thought it was like an affirming to, like, keep you in. And I was like, absolutely not. So I finally listened to it. I think it was the Tom Phillips.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] Whoa, you started with Tom Phillips?

Tara Herbert [01:19:21] Yeah, because they had mentioned it on the not so Molly Mormon podcast. Like that that episode was insane. And so I was like, for those

John Dehlin [01:19:30] who don't know, that's the episode about the second anointing about. Of a British man who received a second anointing and then lost his faith after.

Tara Herbert [01:19:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] And if you don't know second anointing it is. Go listen to the Tom Phillips podcast.

Tara Herbert [01:19:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] That would blow your mind.

Tara Herbert [01:19:45] It did blow my mind, and it made me angry.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] Why?

Tara Herbert [01:19:50] I hated the wife washing the feet.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:19:54] That was like, so triggering to me

John Dehlin [01:19:56] of like, in the second anointing, the wife washes the husband's feet. Is it twice?

Tara Herbert [01:20:01] Yeah, I think. Or no. Or he washes her feet after she washes his. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:20:09] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:20:09] Either way, it was like that episode like, you know, like in the Bible where she.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] She blesses him after she washes his feet in their special room.

Tara Herbert [01:20:19] Yeah, right. Yeah. And it's supposed to, like, you know how, like, it wasn't Mary that washed Jesus feet tears.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] Right.

Tara Herbert [01:20:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:27] It's in similitude of Mary washing Jesus's feet.

Tara Herbert [01:20:30] Yeah. And even that.

John Dehlin [01:20:31] And that's the highest ordinance of Mormonism is a woman washing washing a man's feet. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:36] Yeah. Goodness. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:20:38] Yeah. And so that just made me really upset. And then I started listening to Year of Polygamy, and I can't remember if it was a Mormon Stories or Year of Polygamy where you talk about chapter 132.

John Dehlin [01:20:56] Well, we definitely have several episodes on DNC 132.

Tara Herbert [01:20:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. But of what it actually means. And when I first listened to that, to realize that I had covenanted to plural marriage, I was at the gym and I just. I couldn't stop throwing up. Like, I literally ran into the bathroom and was just throwing up.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] Literally.

Tara Herbert [01:21:18] Yeah. Because again, I still believed it. Right. And so I still was like, I've already covenanted to plural marriage without knowing.

John Dehlin [01:21:34] Yeah. Because the new and everlasting covenant, as outlined In D&C132, involves plural marriage with one man and multiple women. That's just a fact. Any Mormon who denies that hasn't read their scriptures.

Tara Herbert [01:21:46] And when you get sealed, you are sealed in the new and everlasting covenant.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:21:52] And so when I put that together, I was, like, sick. Because again, I'm still already dealing with all this anxiety around it. And now I'm like, struggling with polygamy in general. And now it's like, I've already said that I will be polygamist. Unknowingly was a lot to. To take in. I don't know. To deal with.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:19] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:22:21] Yeah. And so I just started on a Mormon stories rampage. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:28] Rabbit hole.

Tara Herbert [01:22:29] Yeah. And started reading the gospel topic essays. And then I don't know, even the. I was still trying so hard to be faithful until all of the sudden, I went to the Release General Release Society meeting, and I just was like, please, like, God, send something in this to, like, keep me here, because I just cannot keep doing this anymore. And at the end when President Nelson talked, it made me just in a full on rage. I was so angry that he was talking about motherhood, as if he knew anything about motherhood. Since when can a penis give birth? Like, it made me so mad. And that was like, when I was like, I can't do it anymore. Like, I'm not gonna sit here. My whole life I have been told what womanhood is from a man, and I can't do it anymore. And it doesn't work for me because this is not womanhood. This is your idea of what womanhood is. And you've never stopped to listen to a woman on what actual womanhood is. So I. Yeah, I just was kind of. I was still in the young woman's presidency, but it was during 2020, so we all got. Got that time off and I was like, Covid, Covid. Yeah. And so I was still seeing a counselor, and I just was like, working through all of this, all of the. I don't know, just all of everything that had happened to me. You know, I was just like, I can't do this anymore. And it's just. It's not working for me. So when we started to go back to church, I had. I can't remember if I had. I think I had already given birth to my second child. And at the time, I was trying really hard. I thought I would be Christian. And so even my second child's name is Judah. Because I was like, he needs a strong biblical name. And now that's gonna live on forever because he is named. I tried really hard to be Christian. I thought I can just be Christian, you know? And then I read Allison. What's her last name? It's called the Making of Biblical Womanhood.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] Yeah. Okay.

Tara Herbert [01:25:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] A Year of Living. No, I'll look it up.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:31] I know what you were talking about.

Tara Herbert [01:25:32] Making of Women. Womenhood of Biblical Womanhood is what it's called.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] Oh, yeah. Okay, Got it.

Tara Herbert [01:25:44] Yeah. And so it's by a evangelical author,

John Dehlin [01:25:48] a woman, Beth Allison Barr.

Tara Herbert [01:25:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:54] The Making of Biblical Womanhood. How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] That sounds intense.

Tara Herbert [01:26:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:00] And healthy.

Tara Herbert [01:26:02] Yeah. And so she is an Evangelical Christian. Right. And reading that book, like, made it so I couldn't even go to Christianity. Right. Because I was like, oh, it's all the same.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:16] Right.

Tara Herbert [01:26:17] Like just a Different brand, you know. And then I thought, I'm. It may be better just not to have to be religious at all. So I went to my bishop and I asked to be released from the young woman's presidency. Yeah. Because I just was like, I can't do this anymore. Like, when we had to go back to in person church, I just like literally could not. It was hard for me to even go to a meeting, a young woman's meeting. Like with just the presidency in the church building. Like, it was like I couldn't even be in the church building. It was so overwhelming to me. And so, yeah, I had to ask to be released. And I just. I literally didn't go back to church after. And I told my husband that I needed to take a break and that I don't. I didn't know if I could be Mormon anymore, which was hard. Like, I think like his reaction, I think is normal to how everyone reacts. Right. He was like, how are you breaking this like commitment that we made? Right. And like in the temple, it's like even bigger because it's like a covenant that you made. And I really thought that he was gonna divorce me. Like I had a plan in my head that like I would move in with my parents and take care of our kids and we would be divorced. Like that's really what I thought, that he would leave me. But he didn't. And he just said, okay, like, yeah, we'll get through it. And I think at that point, you know, I think he had been in denial about my mental state throughout our marriage. And I think for him, he just was kind of like, whatever helps you feel better, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:40] Cause it was just prioritize you.

Tara Herbert [01:28:43] Yeah. Cause at that point he like every single day we'd have a conversation and I would be just talking about how miserable it is to be a stay at home mom. And he would be like, what do you just like want to leave us? Like. And yeah, a lot of days I did. It was just really miserable. And so I decided to not go to church anymore. Our youngest was blessed just in our home with some family. He wasn't recorded though on, you know, how they record the like.

John Dehlin [01:29:25] Like a children of record.

Tara Herbert [01:29:27] Yes. Yeah. So. Which I thought was nice. Like the ward clerk at the time, I didn't know how he knew. I was like, probably everyone knew though, because I asked to be released from Young Women's, but he had just said he had asked me if I wanted him to be recorded, like the baby blessing. And I said no, I don't right now. And he. I don't know. I don't know. Everyone at that point tries to just like get you back converted, you know, because he like was trying over the phone, he was just said like, yeah, well, you should still write down like your baby's blessing. Like, I grew up Catholic, so I never had the opportunity to get a father's blessing. And so like, you should still write it down. So he has that forever. And I just was like, yeah. I was like, I know how you feel because I've never had a mother's blessing either. And he just was like, yeah. And we hung up the phone.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:40] An answer he didn't expect.

Tara Herbert [01:30:41] Yeah. Because it just, I don't know. At that point I really felt a lot of anger towards the church. I was angry that we. I really didn't want to do the baby blessing. Was angry that there was no rituals for women specifically in the church. Right. And even if they created just like, I don't know, some ditzy. Who cares what. That would keep so many women there if they just had a specific. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:13] A crumb of a ritual.

Tara Herbert [01:31:15] Yeah. But again, it's like I go through all of this work of creating this child, of birthing this child, and I have no, no rituals for myself.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] Can't even hold the baby in the circle.

Tara Herbert [01:31:32] Yeah. Can't do anything.

John Dehlin [01:31:34] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:31:35] And I should just be grateful. Right. That it's, that would be too much work for me to have the priesthood. And at that point, it wasn't even that I wanted the priesthood. It's just I wanted, I wanted to truly be recognized for my contributions to the world, to the church. Right. Because it has been downplayed so much of my contributions like this congregation would not even be without the women here because we literally birthed every single member of this congregation, you know. Yeah. So I think a lot of it at first was just I had a lot of anger towards the church and towards this idea of womanhood. Right. I think even women now in the

Margi Dehlin [01:32:36] church

Tara Herbert [01:32:39] like you really are constructed out of the view from a man's view of what it is to be a woman. And so. And maybe a lot like it, maybe a lot like being stay at home moms. I didn't, it wasn't for me. And I don't know how many will continue to like it as inflation gets worse because costs a lot of money to only have a one income household now. I don't know how people survive off of it because we, I guess we were okay, you know, but yeah, just at that point, the more I stepped away, the better I felt.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:31] Yeah. And back to the idea of working, you know. Yeah. Economic reasons are one reason, but also mental health.

Tara Herbert [01:33:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:42] That's all. And actually not even like, we could say not even mental health, but desires enough.

Tara Herbert [01:33:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:49] As a woman, it's enough to want to.

Tara Herbert [01:33:52] Yeah. I completely agree. And it's like we are not. It's not your mother's society anymore, you know? Yeah. I don't think that it's. You have to. You have to work just cause to make money. Like you can work just cause you like it, you know? Yeah. And it was a huge leap because after we moved to Pocatello, my husband ended up getting a job in Virginia, Reston, Virginia, the D.C. area. So we moved again. So we just keep moving. And that was always hard for me. Right. The expectation of you will just move wherever your husband has work was really, really hard for me. And moving to Pocatello, I felt like I was like, again, I thought it was like, I'm doing this for like, because this is what God wants me to do, you know, Which I shouldn't. I don't think. I don't think that's a good enough reason to do something anymore. I don't think it's a good enough reason that God wants you to do something.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] Well, some man says God wants you to, right?

Tara Herbert [01:35:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:16] Well, like you said in the temple, there's a connection between them. So. Yes, your husband says he wants to, and then you connect it to God because that's the association that you've been. Those two are linked.

Tara Herbert [01:35:29] Yeah. And I think when you come from, like, when we had our first kid, we were literally on food stamps, living in his mom's basement, you know, so like, you, you kind of like quickly go from like living a fine life to like now you feel impoverished, you know, and so like, it feels like you need to follow the money to be able to like, enjoy life. And maybe that's how I felt for a long time is like, oh, if we just had more money, then maybe I wouldn't feel this way. But now it's like, even now I feel like we have less money and I feel less depressed, you know, it had nothing to do with the money.

Life After Mormonism and Rebuilding Identity

John Dehlin [01:36:15] So can I. I want to go back to something you said. That for me was maybe one of the most powerful things of the whole interview. You said that. And I'm just going to read it back. The more I stepped away, the better I felt. Now in the Mormon Church, there's the Teaching that wickedness never was happiness. And there's the teaching that the ultimate calling of a woman is a wife and mother, that the woman's place is in the home, that it's the plan of not just salvation, but the great plan of happiness. Right. And what you're saying is the more you got into Mormonism, from your mission to temple marriage to motherhood, wifehood, the more toxic and I would just say deadly, it was becoming for you. Talk us through how, what you mean by the farther you got away from it, the healthier and happier you got. Can you talk us through that?

Tara Herbert [01:37:22] Yeah. Well, first I would say whose happiness? Because I think Mormonism is the plan of happiness for men.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] White, white men. White, straight men.

Tara Herbert [01:37:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:34] I think I loved it. I loved Mormonism in so many ways.

Tara Herbert [01:37:39] You were very happy because all the support was for you.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] It was made by and for me.

Tara Herbert [01:37:43] Yeah, yeah. You had your wife to support you. You had the children you wanted. You may not have had to work very hard to actually take care of the children day to day. Right. Because that was your wife's job. So I would say it in that regard. It is the plan of happiness for a lot of men because the world revolves around them. For women and for me, I had to step out of this male centric world and I can no longer orbit around men anymore to support their happiness because it was not supporting my happiness at all. And so the further I stepped away from Mormonism and the ideals of this is what makes a good wife, this is what makes a good woman. Instead of figuring out what is, what do I think I'm the woman what makes a good woman? What do I think makes a good woman? What do I think makes a good wife? What do I think makes a good mother? And I. I don't know, like, especially it was hard for me to feel abandoned by my biological parents and then to feel like this religion was also making me invisible and almost like another abandoning because I was not really seen and how I viewed the world was not really cared about.

John Dehlin [01:39:26] You were taught to abandon yourself.

Tara Herbert [01:39:28] Yeah. That's probably the biggest thing is. Yeah. The self abandonment. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:36] And in addition to the wanting to leave the men, you know, orbiting the man, there's the messages around what whiteness means, what blackness means, what beauty is and what beauty isn't.

Tara Herbert [01:39:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:52] What personality you should have. Can you talk about that?

Tara Herbert [01:39:56] Yeah. I feel like moving across the country to D.C. was like the best thing we ever did, because I finally just got to be. I could just like, when you in, in D.C. there's all different types of way to be a woman. There's all different types of way to be a man. And there's going to be all different types of color of those people. And there's so many different religions, you know, so even if somebody is a certain religion, when you get to know them, that's not like the main thing they're even talking about, you know. Cause that's just like so many people are so many different religions that it's like that's so far from something that you're connecting with someone on, you know,

John Dehlin [01:40:48] it's the salt, not the meal.

Tara Herbert [01:40:49] Yes, exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:52] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:40:52] And so when I moved to D.C. is when I finally felt like, I don't know, like when I was listening to Heather Gay's episode of Mormon stories. That episode like blew my mind because I was like, why do I relate to like a 45 year old woman, white woman, like why do I relate so much to her when how do I have the same experience as her and I'm. I'm not white. Like I don't know. It's so it really put me on this journey to like find out what it means to me to be a woman. Find out what it means to me to be a black woman and to not continue to deny these things that were hard for me. Right. Like I kept feeling like if somebody else doesn't believe that it's hard, then it must have not been a hard thing. Instead of finding myself and being like that was really hard for me. It may not seem like it was a hard thing to go through, but like for me it just was. And finding that self confidence again to just be secure in myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:11] Yeah. It reminds me a little bit of like when you've talked about feeling invisible, making yourself visible to yourself and then from there to the people around you, like refusing to be invisible and then also like with abandonment, feeling this sense of being abandoned and finding yourself.

Tara Herbert [01:42:35] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:36] And then from there you can look to find the right people to love that won't abandon you. Does that make sense?

Tara Herbert [01:42:44] Yeah, exactly. And I didn't want to be like, like my sons. I did not want them to feel like this is, is okay. Like I didn't want to be the, you know how they're like president so and so's wife passed away. I didn't want to just be present so and so's wife anymore. It wasn't good enough for me anymore. Wasn't good enough to just be the Bishop's wife anymore. Wasn't Good enough to just be the Stake President's wife anymore. I wanted people, and I still do want people to know Tara. Right. Not the wife of this someone, the mother of this someone. Know me. And I want my sons to know me. Not just this version of, I don't know, through the Mormon lens.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:46] Me, the Truman show character.

Tara Herbert [01:43:48] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so I feel like I have friends that are still religious, still Christian, and I started working once I got to D.C. and getting childcare. I feel like. I feel like you just can't knock it until you try it, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:44:12] Yes.

Tara Herbert [01:44:13] Because a lot of people's excuses for not having childcare will be like, well, it would be my whole paycheck. And maybe for now it would be. But that's part of working. Right. You work your way up. So it isn't your whole paycheck.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:28] Right. It's like growing a career.

Tara Herbert [01:44:30] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:30] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:44:30] And even if it is your whole paycheck and you enjoy what you're doing, then keep doing it, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:44:37] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:44:38] And I feel like I met friends who have just become such great friends to me that are. Have never been Mormon. You know, I feel like what's most interesting about Mormonism, it's more interesting to people who have never been Mormon than who have. So it's fun to, like, talk to them about their experience or even talking to somebody who's gay and has, like, a healthy upbringing, it's kind of like, what's that like, Like, I didn't know that was possible, like, to have affirming parents, you know, that don't care about what sexuality you are.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:28] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:45:29] And I think, like, when Mormonism fell for me, everything kind of fell. And I don't really. I would say now I probably closely resemble an atheist. I wouldn't say even agnostic. And that's just personal. I don't know. Like, now, for me, I can't see there's no religion out there that I feel like doesn't revolve around men. And specifically, I feel like even in the United States, I don't know if there's a religion out there that has ever not been racist or born in. In racism, you know, if there is, I'm still not interested in joining.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:23] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:46:24] I just. I don't know. I think religion can be a defense mechanism. Right. And a safety net. And I also think not being religious can be that as well, you know, and for me, it's just. It's too much.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:38] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:46:41] To have to be religious or spiritual or anything anymore, you know, and just Healthier not to be.

John Dehlin [01:46:52] And so for those who are like, well, you were going through panic attacks, bipolar symptoms, paranoia, depression, anxiety. You were having physical manifestations of sort of a breakdown. What's happened to all of that?

Tara Herbert [01:47:17] Yeah. So I don't have panic attacks anymore. I don't have. I don't even take medication anymore.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] Paranoia.

Tara Herbert [01:47:27] No, don't have paranoia. I still can get regular anxiety. And that's just what it is, right? Is I don't know if it's like, as intense anxiety as I used to get before. I used to like, count every bad thing I did in a day before I'd go to bed. I'd keep track of every sin I ever did. And I just don't. I don't know. I don't feel that way at all anymore. I still. I'm working through the grief I feel like of now since I don't believe in an afterlife. I don't believe that I'll ever see or meet my biological father. Yeah. So working through that, I still am trying to navigate the relationship with my biological family in general. And there's a lot of grief and pain still there, but at least I can just name the emotions. It's not something that really consumes me anymore. It just is. Right. And maybe it will be like that forever.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:50] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:48:50] Yeah. So I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:53] Yeah. You mentioned re parenting in your rebuilding as well. Do you want to talk a minute about what it means to. To you to reparent yourself and parent in a different way?

Tara Herbert [01:49:06] Yeah. I think the biggest thing is doing things. Sorry, that. I don't know. Like, I feel like now, like, I'm not afraid to learn about just how if I have questions around sex, like, to Google it and figure it out and, like, actually have that conversation with my husband and with parenting my kids now. I think we all parent from a place of, like, wanting to give our kids the things that we didn't have, you know? And with my kids now, it's like, I just want them to know that they have options. Right. Because Mormonism for me, felt like I had. These were my only options. I could either, like, burn in hell or follow the Mormon path, you know? And even with my husband and I getting married. Right. Our two options were either wait a year to have sex or get married civilly when there was a third option. Right, Right. Like, we could have still waited to get married and still slept together, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:28] That's right.

Tara Herbert [01:50:29] And still dated. And so I think just knowing that there's. There's always other Options when I parent and not wanting to parent out of a place of that extreme fear. Um, I don't know. Like, I just don't want to be. I am. I get afraid. Right. I don't want my kids to get hurt, just like every other parent, physically, mentally. But I also am aware of kids get hurt, you know, And I just have to be mentally strong enough for them as well, you know, because they need it. They're probably gonna come to me one day and tell me things that I did wrong as a parent and that they're angry at. And I think now is the time to prepare myself mentally, to be able to have those tough conversations as they grow up, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:51:33] Right. That's okay.

Tara Herbert [01:51:35] And it's okay. Yeah. And it's okay to, like, for me, going to therapy and being like, this person failed me. I failed myself here. This person failed me. It's like, sometimes there's not gonna be any accountability. Right. I don't expect any accountability from the Mormon Church. I don't expect anybody to take responsibility for it. But it's okay to still say that you failed me and that in times I failed myself, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:52:13] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:52:14] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:15] How has it been? You know, one of the themes, I feel like that has come up throughout your story, our hard conversations and communicating and those conversations as a parent that, you know, you would want to have with your kids, how has it been so far, you know, taking that on? Because you're basically making a new blueprint. You're doing something new. Right. You're not using something that you received. So in that, how has that been for you? Has it felt hard? Has it felt healing? Like, what has it been like so far with desiring to have more open communication and direct conversation?

Tara Herbert [01:53:03] Yeah. I think what I've started is with having those conversations with my husband,

Margi Dehlin [01:53:11] of

Tara Herbert [01:53:12] being able to, I don't know, just voice. Like, I don't even. Like, I'm now 29 years old, and I still feel awkward sometimes talking to my husband about sexual.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:26] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:53:26] You know, and so I feel like it's like, I need to be able to have these hard conversations for us together so that we can, in turn have these hard conversations with our kids. I will say, with my kids now, I feel like it's been easy to talk about, like, just knowing atomically correct language for different body parts. It's real. I feel like I'm at a really easy place with my kids because I don't have to. They're not old enough yet, you know, to, like, get into really deep conversations regarding sexuality and those type of things. But I feel like right now it's like trying to have those conversations, even though I may feel uncomfortable or silly to have them with my husband, you know, and being able to be like, how are we going to raise our kids? Because my husband is still, still tens. Right. So we're still a part member family. And so I think it starts with like being able to have those conversations with each other.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:43] Right.

Tara Herbert [01:54:44] Before we start having those conversations with our kids.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:49] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [01:54:51] Because it's a lot.

John Dehlin [01:54:53] So something that a Mormon brain won't be able to understand is the idea that not only can you be happier as a working mom, but you can actually be a better mom as a working mom. Can you address that?

Tara Herbert [01:55:14] Yeah, I feel like, well, to me happiness is subjective, first of all. So it may not work for other people. You may be miserable doing it. So I don't know. For me it works because it's what I want to do. I like making money. I like being able to work towards a common goal financially with my husband, you know, and I like being. Feeling like I have the power to contribute. Right. Like I. There's nothing more, I don't know, like damaging than when we go to buy a car and because I don't have a job, because I don't have any credit, I can't do that. You know, it's scary, It's a scary feeling when you're like a naturally anxious person to leave your life in somebody else's hands. Literally. Especially because I was an able bodied. I don't know if I'm semi smart person. Like, you know, like I can, I can work, you know, I can work and make this less stressful for the two of us, you know, if we both work. And being able to send my kids to daycare. Like, I think a lot of times men don't realize, right. Like when they go to work and somebody's watching their wife, is watching their kids, they make a doctor's appointment and they just go during their lunch break, Right. They don't even have to think about like who's going to watch their kids. When I became a mom, I've never been more stressed out than having to figure out what to do with my kids and why. I never realized how many appointments we go to in a week in a day where you can't have your kids there.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:20] This is valid.

Tara Herbert [01:57:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:22] This is real.

Tara Herbert [01:57:24] And so it's nice to be able to be like, now I can go to an appointment when I need to go to an appointment. And I already have childcare taken care of. And my husband really likes the childcare, too. Like, that was something, you know, we were taught that, like, children need to be raised by their mother. Like, that's the best possible place for a child to be is at home with their mom. And I think, yeah, sometimes that's true. Other times. There's times where I feel like my daycare provider truly loves my kids more than I do. Cause she's so patient and so kind, you know, And I'm like, I don't have that in me to do that all day. And it's. I don't know, it helps mentally to be able to focus on just one thing at a time. You know, kids are hard, and I don't think we're meant to do it alone at all. And I don't know where I. I think even in Mormonism, the community for me has not been how it was when I was a child for that support. I didn't get that support. I feel like within Mormonism is kind of.

John Dehlin [01:58:50] As a Mormon mom, you didn't get the ward support, you thought.

Tara Herbert [01:58:53] No, not like how when I was a kid. Right. Where. Like where you had your friends who you knew you could drop your kids off to babysit. It just wasn't. It wasn't like that for me. And I don't know if that's just how it is now or if that genuinely.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] I mean, religions in free fall in the United States and Mormonism's in free fall in the United States. Yeah, they're both true.

Tara Herbert [01:59:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] It's not just a Mormon problem, but it certainly is a Mormon problem.

Tara Herbert [01:59:26] Yeah. So I just. I didn't feel that. I think that was. Made it easier to walk away, you know, because I didn't feel a lot of support when it came to community within Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] Yeah. Wow. Well, I'm so happy you got well.

Tara Herbert [01:59:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:47] And I'm so inspired by your healing because you. You have had to heal, and none of us are ever fully healed, but you have had to work through process. Multiple levels of things that we've never had none of us could even relate to because it's levels of complexity we just have never experienced. And you've had layer upon layer upon layer.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:11] That's right.

Tara Herbert [02:00:11] Yeah. And I think the biggest thing is the language. Right. As soon as I realize what PTSD

John Dehlin [02:00:18] actually was, or patriarchy or systemic racism. Right.

Tara Herbert [02:00:22] Or sexism, to me, I don't know how somebody would be able to convince me that Mormonism isn't Sexist, like, it's how it operates. You could not go and stand as a regular business and operate how it operates. Right. You would be fined and in trouble if this was an actual regular business.

John Dehlin [02:00:48] But this is a church.

Tara Herbert [02:00:49] Yeah. They can do whatever they want. Which. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:00:54] And so can you imagine a Fortune 500 company where women couldn't be executives?

Tara Herbert [02:00:59] Yeah. Sorry, you don't have a penis.

John Dehlin [02:01:01] Yeah. Or like hold any of the management. Only. Only staff workers. No management positions.

Tara Herbert [02:01:08] Yeah. And I don't think like for women. Right. Like a lot of the argument would be like, well, I don't want to take on. On more work. But the thing that you fail to realize is like, you don't even know the inner workings of how your church works. Right. For. Because you're not in those meetings. You don't even understand like, how decisions get made, how any of this works. And the argument that like, oh, you can. Only one person can be in charge. That's a lie. Lots of companies have boards of directors. There's multiple people constantly in charge to run successful businesses, successful marriages. Society is run with multiple people in charge all the time, you know, to get things done. And if it's. I don't understand the simplicity of like, well, somebody has to make the decision. It's like, yeah, we all make the decision. Right. It's not just a one or the other decision making.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:17] Yeah. All right. I have a question for you around. I feel like Mormonism paints a pretty clear picture about what happens when you leave.

Tara Herbert [02:02:30] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:32] So what has surprised you about where you find yourself today?

Tara Herbert [02:02:41] Yeah, I think that I've all. I think my anxiety about what happens to me after I die was created because I feel more comfortable not knowing and not even believing that anything happens to me after I die than I did knowing that I was just gonna be an eternal baby maker, you know? So I think sometimes people may be afraid to not have the answers when it actually feels better not to because the possibilities are better. It's not just so narrow minded and narrow, narrowly scoped, you know, because now the possibilities are endless. Like, some days I'm like, yeah, maybe it would be nice to have an afterlife. And some days are still really hard. And I think maybe it would be nice to just not once you die, you just get to rest forever, you know? So, yeah, it feels better to open that up more because when I was at the height of Mormonism as well, like, nothing could soothe how the pain of like, like it didn't feel good either way. Like, even when I was Contemplating, like, wanting to take my own life. It felt horrible to even want to do that because I was like, well, then I'm gonna be stuck still taking care of kids, still doing this. Like, it's like there was no freedom.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:38] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:04:39] No freedom at all.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:42] That's really. That's really something.

Tara Herbert [02:04:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:47] Okay. So another thing I'm curious about is in the rebuilding part, the rebuilding phase, is there something that you feel particularly proud of?

Tara Herbert [02:05:02] I think the biggest thing I feel proud of is having no college education and having a job where I make just as much money as my friends who are my same age with a college education. I feel like that's the biggest thing that I'm proud of because, I don't know, I just. I found a way somehow to scam some company into letting me work for them and for them to pay me, you know, and it feels good to be paid for what I paid to do on a. More remission.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:51] Right?

Tara Herbert [02:05:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:52] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:05:53] So it's like, just. I don't know. And I feel proud that I've let go of the expectations of my children of how that. Who they have to be and how they have to show up.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:07] Right.

Tara Herbert [02:06:08] Makes it so much easier to lift that. Like, parenting is still hard, right? It's still hard for me, but now that I don't have that expectation, the expectation is just like, show me who you are and don't hit it. Just like, simple has simplified parenting for me to not have to be so overwhelmed with, like, you need to sit still during church, and you need to. Need to be able to know how to say your prayers, and you need to be able to, like, start learning scriptures and scripture mastery. Like, it's like, no, just be. You know.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:44] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you.

Tara Herbert [02:06:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] Wow. What a powerful, empowering story. Like, I'm. I hope everyone listens to this, just because it's such epic story of. I don't want to say suffering, but, like, of oppression or abuse or. I mean, it's. On the one hand. Sorry, I'm just gathering my thoughts. I know that it's complicated because you were able to meet your biological family and see that they're doing quite well and. And that you did experience a lot of fraught education or lack of education and. Or oppression to some degree. Didn't even know about from your Mormon upbringing, but I guess. I guess I would ask, do you feel. Do you feel like you're at peace with the fact that your parents adopted you and that you were raised Mormon from the standpoint of, like, that's what got me to where I am, and I've learned great things from it. Or do you feel still anger and frustration and resentment at the Mormon experience you had, or do you even know yet?

Tara Herbert [02:08:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:20] Or both at all?

Tara Herbert [02:08:21] Yeah. I feel like it depends on the day. Right. Like, some days I feel really proud of where I've gotten myself, and other days it still feels hard because I still don't have a very strong relationship with my biological family, and I still feel very conflicted. Right. I still feel like it's hard for me to talk to them without feeling jealous of my brothers.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:58] Yes.

Tara Herbert [02:08:59] Yeah. And loss and pain and grief. And then there's other days where I feel like, this is great. Like, I get to have both worlds. So it goes in between, I think. I don't know if I'll forever be on the roller coaster of just grieving. And. I don't know, like, there's some days where I really feel like, well, Mormonism wasn't that bad. And there's other days where I'm just like, oh, my gosh, this is still ruining my life. Like, I can't work through this. How is this still a thing? I don't know. It's just. It's both still. It's still both. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:48] Yeah, yeah. I think there is, like, a. I don't know, it can feel alluring to have things have a neat closure or, you know, I think we're drawn to that. I think our brains, like, want it. Prefer that.

Tara Herbert [02:10:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:07] You know, but I just feel like. I don't know, I feel like I'm bearing a testimony, but, like. Like, the more I'm alive, the more opposing things are true.

Tara Herbert [02:10:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:18] At the same time, the more conflicting things can be true, the more there's, like, ebbs and flows and feelings.

Tara Herbert [02:10:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:27] Depending on the moment, depending on, you know, the day. So that feels like a very real answer, a very relatable way of looking at something that. It's complicated.

Tara Herbert [02:10:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:40] How could it not be?

Tara Herbert [02:10:41] And I feel like that's, like, for me, probably what was so hard in Mormonism is like, they're like, life's not complicated. Just follow the plan of happiness. And to my life, there's been nothing but complexity, you know, And I needed to be able to hold all of those emotions and all of the complexity. And I hope that's, like, what my sons understand, that there's nothing easy. Like, life is supposed to be complicated. Right. I don't know if it's supposed to be, but it is complicated. Right. And, like, people who Try and act like, well, we're gonna confuse the children. We're gonna confuse them. It's like we're all confused. I'm confused daily. So I don't know if, like, trying to, like, not make it confusing is even helping, because.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:30] Right.

Tara Herbert [02:11:30] It's. We're confused. Like, there's a lot of complicated things. Life's hard, and we all hold a lot of different things that just don't make sense, you know? But that's just life.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess what I was trying to articulate or process is just how much you have overcome in such a poised and graceful way in such a short amount of time.

Tara Herbert [02:12:01] Oh, I don't know if it was poised or graceful.

John Dehlin [02:12:04] I guess I'm just talking about what I'm seeing today.

Tara Herbert [02:12:07] Oh, that's nice. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:09] What you can tell is that you have processed a lot.

Tara Herbert [02:12:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:13] You have felt a lot.

Tara Herbert [02:12:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:16] And that it has been effortful.

Tara Herbert [02:12:18] Yeah. No, for sure. And I think it's not over. Right. Like, I do feel way better today than I did three years ago, but I think it's just. Yeah. It's just gonna be complicated. And trying to find the joy. I think the biggest thing for me is, like, the goal should have never been happiness.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:45] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:12:46] Right. It should have been just health, having a good, healthy mindset. Because happiness is fleeting. Emotions are fleeting. They come and go. So how do we navigate all of them?

Margi Dehlin [02:12:59] So, yes. Love it. Well, we honor you. Thank you for sharing your story with us. It's been a delight.

John Dehlin [02:13:10] Yeah. Tara Herbert, thank you so much for sharing your story with us, for coming all the way from East Coast.

Tara Herbert [02:13:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] And for sharing your story on Mormon Stories podcast. I know it's going to help a lot of people.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:21] Yeah.

Tara Herbert [02:13:21] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [02:13:23] Yeah. Our pleasure. Thanks, Margi.

Tara Herbert [02:13:28] Thank you, John, for being here.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:30] Appreciate you.

John Dehlin [02:13:31] Likewise. And thanks to Julia and Maven and Gerardo and Brooklyn and everyone who makes the Open Stories foundation possible. I'll just. Thanks to our viewers and our listeners. Thanks to our donors that donate and allow for us to do what we do. And if, you know, because we lose donors every month, people just move on or lose interest or fall into financial hard times. If you're able to become a monthly donor, if you value this content, if you want to see it continue, just to show appreciation, you can go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button and become a monthly donor. And that's how we keep providing you with this content. So do that if you can. Please subscribe on Facebook and YouTube and Instagram and TikTok like this episode if you can, share it with anyone you think who might benefit. And that's the way we'll help the algorithms push this story far and wide. And most importantly, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

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