Introduction and Why Mormons Are Leaving

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's August 27, 2024, and we have a super cool interview for you today. We found someone who, like, just in the past few weeks or months, was recently serving as a temple worker in the LDS Church as a Relief Society presidency member. And just recently, like almost in the past few weeks, has. Has sort of reached this crisis point where they're trying to figure out what to do. And it involves, you know, growing up in Utah, it involves serving a mission, and it's someone kind of in the Gen Z millennial kind of timeframe. So it's just, if you want to know why twenty somethings are leaving the Mormon Church in 2024, they're devout Mormons. We couldn't pick, I think, a better guest for today. Her name is Michelle Clyde. Hey, Michelle. Welcome.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:02] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] And what did I get right or wrong about my description of you? Like, you're still active in the church, right?

Michelle Clyde [00:01:09] Well, I would call myself a once a month pimo, but like you said, it's been like two or three months.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] Since what?

Michelle Clyde [00:01:16] Since I'm like deciding that I don't believe anymore.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] So three months ago, what was your status with the church?

Michelle Clyde [00:01:21] Three months ago I was still totally in meaning.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] And you were in a relief presidency.

Michelle Clyde [00:01:26] I was in early society presidency. I was a temple worker.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] And this is in Utah county, right?

Michelle Clyde [00:01:31] This is in. Yeah, in Provo.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Okay.

Michelle Clyde [00:01:33] So, you know, as all in as you can get, with some exceptions. I don't have kids yet, which is like, you know, but yeah, as all in as you can get. And trying to make it work so hard and it just kind of reaches a point where it can't work anymore.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] And you're still in the process of figuring out what you're going to do. Right. Tell people what pima means.

Michelle Clyde [00:01:52] So PMO means physically and mentally out. So you have recognized you don't believe in the doctrines, but there might be some things that you find are a benefit to your life. So there's like partial participation in some ways, which I think you'd be surprised how many people are probably in that situation and you just don't know it. There's probably a lot of congregations where there's a majority of people who are in that situation. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] And if that weren't cool enough. It's also your birthday.

Michelle Clyde [00:02:19] Yes, it is.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:20] Happy birthday.

Michelle Clyde [00:02:22] So I said it's a symbolic rebirth today because it's my golden birthday. So I'm turning 27th 27 on the 27th. And yeah, it's like this is a new chapter, a rebirth into kind of the next step of my life. So good time.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] And I'll just say a lot of people are like, john, we just want normal interviews of normal Mormons. We don't need celebrities here. And as far as I know, you're not a celebrity. Is that right?

Michelle Clyde [00:02:45] No.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] Okay. Although you are an artist, which is cool.

Michelle Clyde [00:02:48] I'm an artist. I hope to be famous someday for my art. But we're in the process of that.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] All right. And if all that weren't enough, we're. We also have Margi with us. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:59] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] It's good to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:01] Yes, good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] All right. Okay, so this is going to be amazing. Buckle up. Michelle, as we told you, we wanted to start especially because I don't even think your parents yet know you're doing this interview. It's probably a surprise to them.

Michelle Clyde [00:03:17] No, I've told like three people, so it might be a bit of a surprise, but I'm ready to handle that when it comes. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] So we wanted to give you a chance, as we do with everyone, to kind of state an entire. Why would a pimo in Provo recently in the Relief Society presidency, and a recent temple worker, why would she ever want to come on Mormon Stories? Especially right in the middle of kind of their faith journey? Deconstruction.

Michelle Clyde [00:03:44] Yeah. It's funny because the word crisis or deconstruction, like, I don't really feel like I'm crumbling. I don't feel like I'm falling apart.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Yeah. People. Some people hate that term.

Michelle Clyde [00:03:53] Yeah. I just. It just feels like I'm moving on in some ways. I wanted to be on the show because one thing I find that my story's kind of interesting because like I told you that I was a temple worker. I was literally listening to Mormon Stories episodes on my way to the temple. That is some major.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] Wait a minute, you're going to do temple work?

Michelle Clyde [00:04:16] Which is like a five hour, you know, time at the temple, and I'm like in my car listening to Mormon stories. So there was some obvious, like, compartmentalization going on.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Now I'm probably. That's a short drive, right?

Michelle Clyde [00:04:28] Yeah, I mean, it was like a 10 minute drive. But like, you know, the. Just the juxtaposition is interesting, I feel is very recent. And when I started listening Mormon stories, I only really listened to stories from regular people. I just found that especially listening to women, everybody wants to feel like they're not alone. And when you can hear somebody echoing something that maybe you've been keeping inside a thought you've been keeping inside, you're like, ah, me too. That's how I've been feeling. And so when I would hear some stories and I would resonate with some things, you know, I thought, oh, I. That makes me feel so good that I'm not alone. And so if I can share some things that like, especially people who are, you know, I'm a cusper, I'm a zillennial is what I say, because I don't quite fit into either. But I'm young and it feels very current for what I went through. And I think a lot of people are going through that. And so if anybody can relate to anything I'm saying, then I feel that that's great. I could help somebody feel that they're not alone.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:32] Can I ask you right off, just because you brought it up, if there are any interviews that kind of stick out in your mind in particular, that made you feel less alone since you

John Dehlin [00:05:42] brought it up, that's putting her on the spot. But it's also. It's a great question. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:05:47] I've listened to so many Mormon stories the past three months, like you wouldn't believe how many I've listene. But I did really love Liz Lamson's episode because she's an artist and I'm an artist and I just love her creative style. And yeah, just like I really resonated with trying really hard to do what you were supposed to do and it just not working.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] But did you bring costume changes as well?

Michelle Clyde [00:06:13] I didn't, but I did bring some journals because as anyone knows who has grown up in the church, journaling is very encouraged because family history, posterity. Right, but will my posterity be embarrassed by what I wrote in my journals? I don't know, but I thought I would share some interesting entries today.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] That's great. Can't wait. Okay, well, let's dig in. I'm guessing you've got pioneer ancestry. Yeah, but let's just go to your parents. Tell us real quickly and anything you want to, just generically about your parents background, how they met and what the context of your early family was like.

Michelle's Pioneer Heritage and Family Background

Michelle Clyde [00:06:55] Yeah, so I definitely have pioneer heritage. My mom grew up in California, met my dad at byu. I think they were living at the Riviera, which probably the same time I

John Dehlin [00:07:06] was there, I'm guessing.

Michelle Clyde [00:07:07] Yeah. I mean, you guys could probably be my parents. I'm sure I'm a similar age. To some of your kids, but. And my mom was engaged at 19, married at 20, very young. And then they, two years later, had their first child. And my dad grew up in Springville, Utah, and that's where I grew up. Which Springville. Seems like it's kind of of an epicenter of some weirdness kind of hopping because. Which I actually didn't know because I wasn't aware of these things until, like, this year, basically, of, like, Ruby Frankie is from Springville. Right. And then who else? What's his name?

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Chad Daybell.

Michelle Clyde [00:07:40] Chad Daybell was living in Springville. I'm like, what is going on with Springville?

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Yeah, it just seemed like something in the water.

Michelle Clyde [00:07:45] Just seemed like a quaint, nice town when I was growing up there.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] But, yep, there's always that weird stuff under the surface of those bucolic towns.

Michelle Clyde [00:07:55] Yeah. Which I kind of realized. Like, my childhood seemed quite idyllic. I think I come from a privileged household, Parents are both married, kind of lovely, you know, five kids in the family, and just seemed like everything's quite idyllic. But as I'm looking back, I'm like, oh, there are some things that showed a little bit of cracks in the snow globe in the perfect little snow globe, which I think, you know, Utah Valley, we'd call it Happy Valley, because it seems like there's more of a concentration of very devout membership, more so than Salt Lake, which is kind of funny that it used to be the epicenter of Mormonism. Now it's kind of gone down. But, you know, when I was a kid, I saw. Sort of thought that everybody was Mormon when I was really little and my across the street neighbors weren't. I think they were Christian of some other denomination. And I remember playing with my friend and just kind of like, realizing that she wasn't Mormon. My brain was like, wait a minute. Like, there's other things in the universe. Like, I. You know, when you're a small child, you only really have such a narrow view. And so I came from that in the very beginning, like, everybody. Like, I thought every household in our entire neighborhood was Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:05] They weren't.

Michelle Clyde [00:09:06] But another thing that's interesting that I'm looking back on is that this is a. That's kind of going throughout Utah is like, there's prescription drug problems in Utah. This is a really crazy story. But my. When my family went to church one day, my older brother, who is like six years older than me, he was old enough that he could stay home sick at church. So maybe he was like, maybe like 10 or 12 or something like that. We went to church and we came back and he said, oh, your friend was here. And we're like, what are you talking about? While he was upstairs in bed, he heard some sounds and he came downstairs and there was a man in a white shirt and tie standing on a chair rifling through our medicine cabinet. And my brother's like, who are you? And the man said, oh, your parents told me to come get some medicine.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] Oh my goodness.

Michelle Clyde [00:10:02] And anyway, my brother believed it because in that type of neighborhood, like, we often didn't lock our doors. It just felt very safe. So he was looking for prescription drugs.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] Wow.

Michelle Clyde [00:10:14] And only recently my mom also told me that someone I know who is a middle aged woman that used to live in our neighborhood tricked my mom into giving her some painkillers. She told her, oh, I ran out of mine, I just need some. And then my mom is that type of person who's always wanting to help anybody. And so she gave her some that we'd had. And then she found out from another ward member that that person was asking other people. And so she kind of came to her like, oh, I'm so dumb that I gave her those. But yeah, it's like there was some prescription drug problems going on, I guess, you know, and I didn't know that as a child, but then it kind of comes to me later.

John Dehlin [00:10:52] Yeah, my understanding is whether it's high rates of depression among women, prescription drug abuse, pornography prevalence, and again, we covered plastic surgery three to five times the national average. Like, Utah's got some intense things going on.

Michelle Clyde [00:11:10] I just listened to your plastic surgery episode and a lot of people don't know this about me, but I actually, when I was 12, had my ears pinned by a plastic surgeon. I used to have really big wide ears. And my mom knew that was something that I was self conscious of. And so she said, would you like to get that done? So even like people you don't know might have had some type of plastic surgery. It is big in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] So one of the 12%. But. But you know, obviously you can watch the episode, but like overwhelmingly people who experience plastic surgery or cosmetic surgery said it was really helpful to them. That was one of the findings for me.

Michelle Clyde [00:11:46] I mean, a lot of people wouldn't think of that as being plastic surgery, but you know, it was something I was very self conscious of as a child teased about, you know, dumbo. And so to get my ears pinned back and now they just kind of look like anyone's would a Lot of people would never guess. And so it's kind of like you never know what somebody's done just by looking at them.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Beautiful. Okay, so five total children. You're one of five.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] In Springville with faithful parents.

Michelle Clyde [00:12:13] Yes, we definitely did. You know, church every Sunday, family home evening every Monday. You know, I'm sure there were some times we didn't, but, you know, my mom was the type of person who wanted to do everything right, which I think rubbed off on me. You know, we did family scripture study when we could, went to girls camp. All the church activities. Mutual. Mutual is an activity that age 12 to 18 go to every Wednesday. So as a child, you know, you kind of get used to that norm. But now when I think about it, it's like there is. It's definitely high demand. There are so many things that. Especially if you have five kids for every single one of them to participate in all these things, let alone scouting, like my brothers all. You know, my mom labored for them to get their Eagle Scout even if they wanted to or not. Right, right. So she definitely wanted all of us to do everything we were supposed to do, and that was a lot of flavor.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] And I'm guessing your parents had decent level callings in the ward growing up? Maybe.

Michelle Clyde [00:13:14] I don't remember growing up. I think my dad was like a. Is that called a high councilman? They, like, go to other wards.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] High councilman. Yeah, that's a high.

Michelle Clyde [00:13:23] He's a clerk once. My mom is actually Relief Society president right now, and she's extremely tired. Like, you can tell it's wearing at her. And she does hear this. I'll just say, you know, keep going. She knows the date that she's done. She's counted down. Because it's a lot of work. I don't think.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:42] Absolutely.

Michelle Clyde [00:13:43] I don't think the average member of a ward realizes how much work a release study president does. Probably more than. Besides maybe the bishop. I mean, it is a lot. So.

Childhood Faith and Early Doubts

John Dehlin [00:13:54] All right, so what touch points in your childhood and adolescence do you think really play into your story?

Michelle Clyde [00:14:02] So my personality as a child, I think I was easily influenced. So if a friend liked something, I would get really into it. Or if a boy that I had a crush on, like a certain kind of music, I would get really into it. So I had a boy that I had a crush on that really liked the Beatles. So I got so into the Beatles.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] There's nothing wrong with that.

Michelle Clyde [00:14:21] Nothing wrong with it.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] I feel like that we validate, we endorse that.

Michelle Clyde [00:14:25] But I had some moments where I would sort of, like, disobey a little bit because. But always in a safe way. When I had a friend when I think I was around 13, that she got really into. It's called the scene Kid style. It's where you wear really colorful skinny jeans and have dark eyeliner and a swooped bang. And so I got really into that, and we were, like, listening to our scream on music, you know, what's it called again? Scene kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:52] Scene kid.

Michelle Clyde [00:14:52] Very 2010s.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:54] Okay.

Michelle Clyde [00:14:54] If someone hears it and they know what that is, it'll probably make him laugh. But so I kind of got into that style, and let's just say my mom was not too happy about it. She, like, you know, tried to not be too mean to me, but she didn't really like that. And I also dyed my hair platinum without telling her. I was gonna do that in high school, which now it's kind of normal. But when I first did it, it's kind of that gray, almost gray. Platinum color.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:17] Oh, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:15:17] She was really upset. She's like that. I did something like that without asking her. But it was definitely like, if I did anything, it was still very on the safe side.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:27] Right. I was seeing, like, a lot of creative expression, like creativity expression, identity stuff, and not really permanent.

Michelle Clyde [00:15:36] Yeah, it was very, like, I was always into something new, very fleetingly. And I think that I only really found, like, kind of myself, like, the past few years, like, who I really am. I'm a twin. And so, you know, there's always something about being a twin that's like you kind of have a shared identity with somebody else.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Maternal or fraternal?

Michelle Clyde [00:15:55] Maternal.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] Oh, wow. Okay. So identify.

Michelle Clyde [00:15:58] You said maternal or fraternal. It's identical or fraternal.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Oh, sorry.

Michelle Clyde [00:16:02] So we're fraternal twins.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:04] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] Meaning not identical.

Michelle Clyde [00:16:06] Not identical.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] I thought maternal was identical.

Michelle Clyde [00:16:08] No, it's identical or fraternal. Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:13] Yeah, we're very pro learning here.

Michelle Clyde [00:16:14] No shame, John.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:16] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:16:16] So we're fraternal twins. And we definitely had times where we were, like, best friends as childs, and we had times where we were, like, enemies and then best friends and then enemies. You know, that's just kind of siblings. But she was like, her name is Angela. And we'd always say she was the angel of the pair because she was definitely, like. She gave all the right answers at church, and she was the one who never put a toe out of line kind of thing. And then I was a little bit of, like, the hard one. To raise.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] She's Nephi. You're layman.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:45] That's so interesting.

Michelle Clyde [00:16:46] Maybe not as intense as layman, but I just kind of, you know, would butt heads with my parents sometimes and I was a little more headstrong. And then she was like more, maybe more of a people pleaser that she was just, oh, I'm gonna do everything right and I'm gonna do what I'm supposed to.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] She was insufferable. You were cool, basically. I wouldn't call me insufferable. Sense of humor. I'm joking. Okay.

Michelle Clyde [00:17:10] But the funny thing was, is, you know, my sister and I, I've actually talked to some other twins about this. I asked them, was it hard for you to make friends growing up? Because in my experience, it's like people always assumed that because we, we didn't need anybody else, you know. And so we did have some struggles making friends. And in high school, we always were kind of on this line of not being Mormon enough for the Mormon kids. There was a group of kids that would go early morning to the temple, which was the Provo Temple. So really it was like a 20 minute, 25 minute drive from Springville. They would go early morning at like 6am and do baptisms for the dead before high school. So that was that group. So definitely like, you know, super Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:57] They're like the extra effort.

Michelle Clyde [00:17:58] Yes. And then we also were friends with kind of like the theater kids and maybe the more alternative group. And so, you know, we were the most Mormon people in that group and we were like the least Mormon people in the other group. So we always kind of floated on that. It kind of created a challenge for us, like having deep friendships, I think, because we didn't quite fit into either group.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:24] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:18:24] And so I always had friends. Like, you'd think that me living in Springville and in Happy Valley, that I would like only be friends with Mormons. But weirdly, like throughout elementary school, junior high, high school, like, I always had friends who were either not members or they were inactive, just kind of by chance that I would just click with friends, maybe in my art classes or something. And so I kind of always had friends that were different. And, you know, there were times where like, I would be at a friend's house and like, things would make me uncomfortable. And I would definitely be like, being the prude Mormon kid who's like, oh, we're watching something that swears too much or just what? You know, just like, I definitely, you know, felt that discomfort in some situations where I was like, I was trying to be, you know, good. And then I'd be with these friends who were doing things. You know, I had friends that. I had a friend whose middle name was Sativa, which meant. Which means marijuana. So you could tell her family definitely came from a different group. So it was always that weird, you know, not quite on either side that I feel like has always been where I've been in my life. So that was something that was hard to work with.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] Okay, you mentioned in sixth grade starting to learn about problematic church history. Do you want to talk about that?

Michelle Clyde [00:19:38] Yeah, that's right. So one of my friends that I don't know if she ever. Maybe her parents used to be members, I had no idea. Like, at the. At the time, I never asked. But one of my friends in sixth grade, she told me how my dad told me that Joseph Smith married a child and there was some story about someone being pushed down the stairs. Do you know what that's about?

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Yeah, I think that's Eliza Snow.

Michelle Clyde [00:20:03] Is this real?

John Dehlin [00:20:04] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was. She's the one who wrote oh My. I think she wrote oh My Father, you know, the hymn oh My Father. She was a poet. She. She was a really proud.

Michelle Clyde [00:20:15] She was one of Joseph's wives.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Yeah, she ended up being one of Joseph's wives. And yeah, I was taught this in. In seminary in high school that. That Emma found out. Well, she was also Emma's like one of Emma's best friends. So when. So you know, Joseph Smith married 22 women or 21 or 22 women before he told Emma or before Emma found out he was a polygamist. And so when Emma found out that one of her best close, Eliza Our Snow, was married to Joseph without her knowledge. Rumor is, story is Emma knocked her down the stairs. And there's even a rumor that a

Michelle Clyde [00:20:54] lot of artists, they don't quite know if it's true, but it's just kind

John Dehlin [00:20:58] of a rumor that Julia can fact check it. She'll be able to tell us. But that's just what. That's the story that I was told that for sure. Emma knocked her down the stairs and kicked her out. The thing that I think was in question was whether or not she was pregnant with Joseph.

Michelle Clyde [00:21:15] Yeah. So this friend told me not only did Joe Smith marry children, but also somebody pushed a pregnant woman down the stairs. And so it was just like, what in the world like, I'd never heard anything like that before that time.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] So Julia is saying that Emma stopped going to Relief Society after the Eliza R. Snow incident and that there is some question amongst historians as to whether that story happened. But Julia, in all her studiousness, she says she buys it. So I think it's more likely than not that that story's got validity to it.

Michelle Clyde [00:21:45] I think, I think when I heard at the time, I was sort of just like, oh, well, I don't really have never heard of that before. You know, I didn't get really like, I didn't, you know, I was in sixth grade. I didn't jump online and look it up. But I just. It's funny that I remember that. That being one of the first times I heard something that was kind of scandalous about the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:02] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:22:04] And another thing the I wrote down in my outline is in Springville, in my neighborhood, the famous ballerina farms. Hannah Wright lived in my neighborhood.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] So in your ward growing up?

Michelle Clyde [00:22:18] Yeah. I'm not sure how old she was when her parents moved into my ward, but when I was going to girls camp, Hannah did a dance and was like the keynote speaker for my girls camp. And I think she was going to Juilliard at the time. So maybe when they moved in, maybe she had just aged out of living with her parents.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] Did she grow up trad wifing or was there any indication she had trad wife?

Michelle Clyde [00:22:44] This is actually funny. I was talking to my friend about this recently, one of my friends. So her parents own a flower shop. And my sister in law, my oldest sister in law, she got her flowers done by them. But my close friend got her flowers done by them too for her wedding. And she told me that Hannah's mom would tell all the brides, she's like, oh, I tell this to all my brides. And she would go on this speech about how important it was for them to have kids. I don't know if it's as soon as possible, as many as possible, I don't know. But she's like, you know, I just like, as the florist, the florist was like, I tell this to all my brides. This is, you know, you need to have kids, something like that. And then, you know, my friend said that she met her another time and I guess she'd forgotten that she already, she already told her. So she like gave the speech again. It was like almost word for word. So their family had a lot of kids. But in my ward, like there was, there was a family had 12 kids that had all Book of Mormon and Bible names. So I mean that was not unusual to have tons of kids. So that was definitely. Her family was just very much like, you gotta have as many kids as you can. And so, you know, she definitely followed that messaging. But.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Yeah, nice.

Michelle Clyde [00:23:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Yeah. So that's the environment that creates, you know.

Michelle Clyde [00:23:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] Conservative, devoted, young LDS women. Right?

Michelle Clyde [00:24:03] Yeah. Yeah. And somehow the having as many kids as possible message didn't really reach me, which we'll talk about later.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] But. Okay, so what else? What else about your childhood and youth?

High School, Pop Culture, and Prop 8

Michelle Clyde [00:24:18] Yeah, so I went to high school at Springville High School, which our mascot is the Red Devil. Interestingly, about every, maybe 10 years or something, some parents would try to change the mascot because they were upset that our mascot was the devil. It was named after, like, some cement company that helped pour the concrete for the school or something like that. But we, like, you know, they were like, we're gonna hold onto this red devil. When I was in high school, they ended up saying that on our merch, we couldn't depict the devil anymore, but we could only do pitchforks because some stake president or some parent or somebody was like, didn't want their kids wearing the high school merch that had the red devil on it. So that is super interesting. But, yeah, in high school, like I said, we kind of became friends with kind of the theater kid group, which is historically very queer. Right. And so we became friends with people that were in the LGBTQ spectrum. And I. So when I was maybe around 12 or 13, the show Glee came out. And that show is iconic because I bet there's a lot of people who similar age as me. It was the first time they ever saw anybody gay depicted on tv. And so, you know, I just thought I just ate that show up. I loved the music. I loved the characters, and I became very sympathetic to the characters that were gay because you. You see them as humans. I don't recall my parents ever giving us, like, a speech about, you know, that being gay was bad or anything, but there was just kind of, like, the vibe that, like, that was not okay. You know, like, my parents were never super political in the home. They never talked about politics or anything controversial. I'm not sure why, but I'm glad, because then we didn't, you know, have to be. You need to believe this or anything, but, you know, just kind of the vibe that it. That it wasn't okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] Didn't the church make it clear it wasn't okay?

Michelle Clyde [00:26:13] Yeah, but I don't remember my parents or ever. Like, I don't. I don't recall any lessons specifically in church or anything that was. That talked about homosexuality. I just kind of. If I'm recalling it was just kind of like the word around the street is that it's not okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] It becomes the air or the water that everyone swims in. Right. You don't even recognize the water because you're swimming in it.

Michelle Clyde [00:26:30] Yeah. And so when I watched that show, it, like, showed me real human stories of people who were experiencing that. And so I became sympathetic to it and. And as well, like, some of my best friends growing up were people of color. And so I, you know, just like everybody. I'm sure I did and said things that weren't the most sensitive growing up to them. But, you know, you kind of learn as you. As you get older. But so I definitely kind of saw into some different worlds. And so when I watched Glee and became more sympathetic to the lgbtq cause then when I got in high school and, you know, some of my friends were coming out to me, I was very much like, oh, great. Like, I didn't have a big reaction. And I definitely think pop culture and just kind of like, you know, just kind of like the messages from that side were very much, like, pro LGBTQ friendly. I mean, when did. When did gay marriage become legalized? What year?

John Dehlin [00:27:25] 2015.

Michelle Clyde [00:27:26] Okay, 2015. So that's the year I graduated high school. So that didn't happen yet. But I still think that kind of the messaging around gay marriage and things like that were becoming more positive, at least when I was a teenager. And so one of my friends, she is really awesome.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] Because before then, I mean, there was Prop 8, which was.

Michelle Clyde [00:27:47] I was not aware of that. Yeah, I was too young.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] But then there was backlash from Prop 8 because the church was so involved. So between Prop 8 and 2015, the Mormon and gays website would have come out, which was the church trying to do damage control for how much it was. How much backlash came from Prop 8. So you would have sort of grown up right in that time where the church was trying to become more affirming.

Michelle Clyde [00:28:09] Yeah. And I don't know if it was necessarily like, ward members were trying to be affirming, but it was just kind of like in high school, you know, you just kind of become more aware of that. And Instagram, I think, came out when I was around 14. So, you know, that's kind of when the social media boom happened was like, right when I was in high school. Of course, Facebook existed before. Before that, but you kind of just become more aware of those things because you're online, because you're hearing people's Stories. And anyway, I was saying that one of my friends, she started the first Gay Straight alliance in Utah County.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] She, like, Springville High School.

Michelle Clyde [00:28:44] At Springville High School.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:45] Amazing.

Michelle Clyde [00:28:46] She, like, did all this paperwork. I mean, she was. She's probably still. I haven't talked to her in a while, but she was a very, like, go getter. Like, she would do things like that. And it was a new club, so we, like, didn't get a lot done. But I remember we had a light parade in high school where each club or each group would, like, wear all these glow sticks and things. And it was at nighttime we marched and we had one for the Gay Straight Alliance. And so my sister and I were there and we, you know, were saying gay Straight alliance and, like, had our signs and everything. And so, you know, I kind of look back on that time fondly. Like, we didn't really know what we were doing. Like, it was such a new club that we kind of just, like, got together and, like, well, what do we do? You know? But it was. Because it was there. I guess the hope was that it's like, there's a safe space and it's

Margi Dehlin [00:29:28] a bit of social activism as a really kind of a very gentle.

Michelle Clyde [00:29:35] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, like, just the kind of the friends that I was hanging around or maybe like, the people I was following online, like, I definitely did become more liberal just because I was, you know, sympathizing with these causes.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:48] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:29:48] Cared for them. And so, yeah, I just kind of resonated with that.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:55] Can I ask you a quick question about the Glee? You watching Glee? Just to understand your family better. So did your parents know about Glee? Did they care that you were watching Glee?

Michelle Clyde [00:30:07] I remember we watched the first episode because, you know, they have the pilot that kind of premieres on cable tv. We watched it with my mom, and I think my mom kind of sort of realized really quickly that it was sort of maybe not appropriate for us to watch, but how much can a parent do, Right? I went on the computer and watched it on the Fox. I think it was a Fox show. I watched it on their website and, you know, I found a way to watch it. I think she kind of was, like, not super approving, but you could do

Margi Dehlin [00:30:36] it kind of more privately.

Michelle Clyde [00:30:37] Yeah. If you want. I think I kind of watched it on the side. And even if she saw. If she saw me watching on the computer, she kind of would, like, express that she didn't approve, but she wouldn't, like, snatch it away or anything.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:47] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:30:48] So. And as A child. I think I sort of got away with watching things like at friends houses that maybe like she didn't approve of. But like, you know, as a parent, there's only so much that you can do to control that. And you know, my generation and following, there's a lot of like, concern of like how much Internet access is okay. Right. I definitely think I didn't have any safeguards as much as I should have. I was just kind of like could go on the Internet.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] So should have.

Michelle Clyde [00:31:15] I don't know,

John Dehlin [00:31:17] from your parents perspective or from the church's perspective, probably.

Michelle Clyde [00:31:21] Yeah. But I mean, even now, kids today are probably on Internet too much for their age group. But the other thing that I wrote down about high school is so since I was friends with kind of the drama kids, one of my friends was one of the leads always in the drama productions that high school did. And he was a great singer and we would drive with him around and he would be sometimes play the Book of Mormon musical songs in his car.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:46] Oh, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:31:47] And so I was just curious and so I went online and I found like a bootleg somebody recording with their phone or some kind of camera in the theater of the Book of Mormon musical. And so I'm in my room. Like we had this laptop that like, my mom didn't want us to use it in our bedroom. She wanted it to be like only, you know. But I took that laptop and I'm in the room and I'm watching it. And I just remember I turned it off because I was really uncomfortable with like kind of the race jokes, which kind of shows its time. Like it wasn't. If that were made today, they probably wouldn't include those kind of jokes. But, you know, those kind of earworm songs kind of would get into my head a little bit of the. There's the Turn it off, turn it off. That's about, you know, if you're gay, just turn it off. And so, you know, I wasn't. It was kind of a little bit of a rebellious thing for me to watch, but I still was a little bit like, ugh, I don't know how feel about this. And I turned it off, you know, but it was kind of funny. Like I was kind of sneaking out and watching that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Speaking of race, you have in your outline a story about having a lesson about a racial curse. Do you want to tell that story?

Michelle Clyde [00:32:56] Yeah. So like I mentioned some of my best friends in childhood were people of color. And I remember having a lesson in Sunday school where it Was like an older white haired guy teaching the lesson. And I can't remember how old we were, but we were teenagers. And it was about the Book of Mormon chapter. There's a chapter for those who don't know that talks about the Native Americans. I'm saying in quotes because, you know, if that's true or not, that there was the white people that came from the old world and that there were some that were rebellious and so God cursed half of them and then so that they could see that these were

John Dehlin [00:33:37] the dark people with the skin of blackness.

Michelle Clyde [00:33:40] The skin of blackness.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] That's the actual quote in the Book of Mormon. White people were cursed with the skin of blackness by God.

Michelle Clyde [00:33:45] Yes. And so my friend who is a person of color, she was like, no, she was not having that lesson. And she kind of fought him with it. And I just, you know, if looking back, like, I wish I would have joined her in fighting back, but I just remember we all kind of were like, like, what's going down? You know, between her and the teacher? But I think he just was very much like on the mood of. Well, we don't really know, so we can't say for sure. You know, it's just like, how many times have I heard that in my life?

John Dehlin [00:34:20] Right.

Michelle Clyde [00:34:20] But that was kind of, you know, an intense moment of seeing that, like there are some things that aren't okay and I maybe wasn't paying attention to them because I'm in a place of privilege where I can ignore them. Right. Ignoring things is a very privileged place to be because it doesn't affect you. So.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Yeah, well said. So well said.

Michelle Clyde [00:34:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] Yeah. But you come by it honestly. Yeah. How about modesty?

Modesty Culture and Young Women's Experiences

Michelle Clyde [00:34:45] Yeah. So I thought of a specific experience where we and young women ages 12 to 18, they go to young women's meeting and we had a stake young woman presidency member come into our young women class and gave a talk about modesty. And she told us that skinny jeans were immodest. Okay. This is in the 2010s. Like that's the only jeans we're wearing.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:11] Right.

Michelle Clyde [00:35:12] Like there was either mom frumpy pants, which is funny now because we've totally. The pendulum is switched. Now we only wear wide pants.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:19] We are mom jeans now as well.

Michelle Clyde [00:35:21] But skinny jeans are out. But back then it was like, I only own skinny jeans the tidiest as possible. Sometimes they're made out of jegging material, so they're so thin. But she was saying that they were immodest because they were too revealing, which is so bizarre because you're completely covered to your ankles. Right. But it's, you know, heaven forbid someone see you have a body.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:40] So how did that land with you? Do you remember?

Michelle Clyde [00:35:42] It landed with no one. So, like, all the girls.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] Wait, we're in Provo here, Springville.

Michelle Clyde [00:35:48] Yeah. I just remember all the girls were like, you're crazy. Like, I just cannot. We couldn't believe. Like, we understood. Like, okay, yeah, we don't want to have our skirt's too short or, you know, we kind of maybe accepted that part of it. But that was bizarre. And I remember all of us were like, we're not following that. And it's kind of interesting. I found a photograph of, like, maybe when I was in Activity Girls, which is. Which is the activity group for the girls who are not quite 12. I don't know what the age range of that is.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:17] Maybe it's like 8 to 12.

Michelle Clyde [00:36:20] I found a photograph of my ward at the time, and if you look at that photograph, like, every person in that, maybe there was like 15 to 20 girls. Like, every person in that group has left the church, except for like two or three. Whoa. And when I found it, I was still in, so I was like. And I'm one of them. I'm one of the people that stayed. Right. So, yeah, most everybody that I grew up with is not interesting.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Yeah, I mean, we do. That's anecdotally really interesting because we've got that quote that was shared with us that 40% of modern Mormon returned missionaries leave the church within six months. That doesn't surprise you as a statistic?

Michelle Clyde [00:36:57] Not at all. And I'll get to that when I talk about my mission. But yeah, and it's funny because, you know, there was a time where there's like a lot of pride that I was like one of the last ones holding out. And there's maybe like, like I said two or three that are still. Still in. But yeah, and. And my. One of my close friends is still. It's still one of those very nuanced, more of a politically liberal situation. So. Yeah, I think that with our climate, people are very sympathetic to the issues going on right now. And so you start finding that disconnect with the church's teaching and then what you believe about politics and the world, you know, world belief.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:33] Yeah. Can I ask you something? Like, what is a belief that emerged or was really expressed or emphasized in young women's that you actually did take on like you did? Were there any. I don't know if, like, the values or roles or was there anything within your time in young women's that you actually did take on and really absorbed and kind of went with?

Michelle Clyde [00:38:06] Yeah, I think, you know, I think I was. I was never the person who was like, reading my scriptures perfectly all the time or anything, but I think I. I pretty much was like I could accept what they were teaching. I remember we had a young men's lesson where we all had to write down, like, what we wanted in a husband.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:23] Oh, yes.

Michelle Clyde [00:38:24] Can you believe that they're having young girls do that? But it's like that was our goal, right, Is to have a husband. And I wish I could find that list. It would make me laugh to compare to my husband if he meets the qualifications I made at age 14 or whatever.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:37] Do you remember some of the things you wrote down?

Michelle Clyde [00:38:39] It was very much like, has to be returned missionary and has to be tall because I'm tall, you know, but maybe some things were more like superficial, but is definitely like, you know, has to be a strong priesthood holder. And I think they were encouraging us that, like, that's who we were supposed to be looking for. I. I don't recall, like, anything very super, you know, doctrinal that I was like, super, like, oh, yes, I'm sticking to this. But I do know that, like, turning to God in times of crisis, like, that definitely was something that I believed in, that I would be able to pray and I would get an answer. So if I was like, lost on the ski slopes and I prayed, I could find my family, you know, or if just something happened, I could pray and I'd find comfort because I had a young women's leader that died of cancer and it was a really hard time for all of us. And so, you know, I opened the scriptures and I found a scripture that was really comforting to me. And so, you know, those were a big part of my childhood that, like, even though I wasn't super, you know, intense about my scripture study personally or anything, it was. I did know that, oh, if there's something that you're struggling with, you can pray and you'll be comforted. So I think that is something that impacted me.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:49] Yeah. Yep. Do you remember in. So you just mentioned a young women's leader who had cancer and died? Is that right? Do you remember that impacting at all your. How you related to prayer and getting answers?

Michelle Clyde [00:40:04] Yeah, I did because I just. I was very devastated and I was crying and I think I was still a Miami. Or is that what it's called, Beehive? When you're 13. Beehive, which. They don't use those names anymore. Oh, yeah. They just call them age 12 or something.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:21] Oh, really?

Michelle Clyde [00:40:22] Yeah. But, you know, so I was quite young when that happened. And I think it was, like one of the first times that I knew somebody personally who died. And so kind of my belief about afterlife and finding comfort in the afterlife, I think was important at that time

Margi Dehlin [00:40:40] to kind of process that. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:40:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] So other high school experiences that are now pretty formative.

Michelle Clyde [00:40:50] Looking back, I'll just say this briefly, but it's kind of interesting. I went to seminary. I went every time. So in Utah, seminary is attached to the high school. It's just a building that's like right next to the high school, which I think is technically owned by the church. It's not owned by the school, but you would just walk to the building and go to seminary. So, yeah, I went to seminary. That's when I started realizing, oh, because I gotta master these scriptures. I found these old videos of me singing the Scripture Mastery songs when I have, like, braces and everything. Made me laugh really hard. Cause we had some seminary teachers that would teach us Songs to remember. For behold, this is my work in my glory to bring to pass the immortality of eternal life of man. What was this? 139. So I still remember it. So did you have songs like that, John?

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:33] To remember. I missed out on Saturday.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Prophets are number one. Joseph Smith.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:38] Oh, I knew that.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] Young John Taylor. We know the Wilford Winterfield. Oh, you mean articles of faith or.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:43] I know that, but she had those. I had not heard of scriptures.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Oh, yeah, there's some. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:41:48] I'm pretty sure that the teachers themselves would invent the songs and maybe they would pass them between other teachers. But, you know, the ones that I sang and remembered, I'm pretty sure that that seminary teacher just made up the songs and, you know, they stuck because I still remember some. But yeah, I went to seminary and, you know, I graduated from seminary, which. What does that even mean? It just means you went and you studied. You know, you passed off your scriptures, I guess. And one of my seminary teachers was Hank Smith, because he lived in Mapleton, which is right next to Springville. And he's become sort of like this Mormon royalty, which.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] What was it like being Hank Smith's student?

Michelle Clyde [00:42:25] He was really awesome, actually. He was very engaging with the young people when he was our seminary teacher. I know that he did tours where he would, like, do. He had CDs that he would sell that had talks for the youth. And so, you know, I had some seminary teachers that were extremely boring and just snooze fest. But he was very engaging with the students and tried to make us laugh. You know, I do recall like a lesson about like why the Book of Mormon is true. Like how could it possibly not be? And I remember listening to the lesson being like, oh yeah, you know, the evidences that we were given. Oh yeah, of course. Like, you know, now I don't know

Margi Dehlin [00:43:03] about that, but would our audience know Hank Smith?

John Dehlin [00:43:07] Oh, for sure, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:43:08] So when he was my teacher.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Well, I mean, not the non Mormons, but like if you go to Instagram

Michelle Clyde [00:43:13] and look, everybody who's a member of the church would probably know who he is.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] He's like a modern Paul H. Dunn in the sense that for a non. Well, he's not a general authority, but just for maybe a John by the Way.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:25] So he's on the talking

Michelle Clyde [00:43:29] with John by the way.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [00:43:31] Yeah. We actually had some John by the Way dvd. I remember we'd watch it and it was very much like he would give. Both of them did this where they would give talks at some kind of youth conference or something and it would be filmed or recorded and then they would sell those recordings.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] He's like a funny, charismatic church educator that's like globally famous, especially in the EFY FSY circuit.

Michelle Clyde [00:43:53] Yeah. But my memory is that he was really kind, really engaging with the youth and I think that's why he's been so successful, because he really could connect with us. And in the middle of one of the semesters that he was teaching me. So when, you know, not in Utah, seminary teachers are not salaried. It's just a calling, which is crazy. I can't believe that they have to do such a high demand calling like that. But in Utah it's a salaried position and I guess they can kind of pick you up and move you whenever they want. So in the middle of one of the semesters of teaching, they just are suddenly like, you're teaching at byu. They didn't even let us finish that year. Like they took them out. You're going to BYU and you're teaching now. Like we need you there. And so then we suddenly a change of a teacher. And my new teacher was brother Bonner. And I actually never made this connection in high school that his family is like a Mormon singing family.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] They're, they're, they're African American. Correct. And yeah, they, it's like, it's kind of like OSMONDS but African American, but great singers. Gospel singing.

Michelle Clyde [00:44:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] I remember dad is. Is a CES employee.

Michelle Clyde [00:44:55] No, he's one of the sons.

John Dehlin [00:44:56] Oh, okay. Okay.

Michelle Clyde [00:44:57] So he was. I don't know if he did it for very long. Maybe he was just kind of, like, trying it out, because. I don't know. I don't know if he stayed very long, but he was a young guy, maybe in his 20s. And I just. I never knew that he was. His family, like, did this thing. I just remember he was good at singing. And when he introduced himself, he, like, said he loved to sing, and he performed in, like, a production of Hairspray as Seaweed, I think. And at the end of the semester, he sang for us, and he was. He charmed us all as well, because he was very charismatic. He had, you know, the beautiful singing voice. And I think one time he did a backflip for us because all the boys were like, do a backflip. Because he told us he could do a backflip. Do a backflip. And so there's another mini Mormon royalty, I guess. I don't know how popular they are now, but I do know that their families sang at the. Not the reunion, but when the priesthood ban was removed. There's, like, a celebration to recognize that.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] Yeah, we've covered that. And they also sing it like Faith Matters, Restore Conference kind of stuff.

Michelle Clyde [00:45:58] Yeah. So I remember him being very, very charismatic teacher. And so I started getting more serious into art in high school. And I remember I was doing a drawing of a friend of mine that was. So I would always draw in seminary because that would help me listen. And I was doing a drawing of an Internet friend that was black, and he was like, you're drawing a black man. He was so impressed by that that I was drawing another black man. And I. I don't know, I just. It was funny that he was really, like, surprised that I would do that, but, you know, in Utah, you can kind of see why. And the other thing about high school that is interesting. So I started doing Vines in high school.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:40] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:46:40] Do you know what vine is?

John Dehlin [00:46:41] It's the predecessor to TikTok. Vine super short Video clips. Right.

Michelle Clyde [00:46:45] What? You know, without vine, there would be no TikTok. It created that short demand. It was six seconds, so you gotta be quick. So I made vines that were mostly about art, but I would kind of sometimes do some things that were a little bit funny. And it was towards the end of high, so I was about to graduate when I started actually getting followers on vine. And So I remember my high school graduation. Like, we had a little party with food trucks and everything, and I just had a Vine that hit the popular page, which, you know, it's very. We don't have. They didn't have a for you page back then. It was very much like someone had to somehow select your video to be on the popular page.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] That'd get millions of views. Right.

Michelle Clyde [00:47:27] And someone came up. I saw your video on the popular page, you know, and so that was. So one of the person that I was drawing, that brother Bonner saw, he was like a friend that I had made through Vine. And I also started modeling in high school. So when I was 17, when I had that platinum hair, I was at a concert, a local concert at the Velour in Provo, for those who know. How about that? That was my true.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Dungeons and Dragons in Neanderthals. Trees got their start.

Body Image and Early Adulthood

Michelle Clyde [00:47:55] Yeah. So neon trees, Imagine dragons.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] I mean, Mindy Gladhill did a lot.

Michelle Clyde [00:47:59] Yeah. Anybody who is a music artist who ends up getting famous from Utah, they probably have played there before. But I loved going to the Velour as a teenager, and when I was there once, someone came up to me and gave me a card. And the. It was the. The owner of this modeling agency in Salt Lake City. So I went there with my mom, and I got signed to do modeling. And so that's kind of like where. Where I'm at when I graduate high school. So I didn't even apply to byu, because I didn't. I just. I want to go there.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] Because it's where you grew up.

Michelle Clyde [00:48:40] Yeah. And also just like, I felt like I wasn't quite Mormon enough for that. I don't know. Like, it's so funny that I thought that way because.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] Because by any standard, you were super devout.

Michelle Clyde [00:48:48] I was super devout, but I still was like. But I'm becoming a little bit more politically liberal because of just, like, I'm on Twitter, you know, I'm online, and I'm just kind of becoming sympathetic to these causes because of, like I said, I have friends who are people of color. I have friends who are gay. And so of course I'm gonna want to, you know, care about their causes. And so I didn't even apply to byu. I also just was like, oh, well, my ACT score isn't high enough. And my twin sister, she was really good at academics, and she got, like, a near perfect score. And so she got a full ride to a bunch of schools in Utah. So she went to byu, and I went to university of Utah. So I was living in Salt Lake City and I didn't live on campus, so I was kind of like not in the campus life at all. So I'm in that kind of like I'm making vines. I'm starting to get some following and I'm modeling and I'm going on the slippery slope. Oh yeah. Slippery slope. Which is funny because it actually leads me to going on my mission. But I'm living in an apartment on South Temple and A street. It's the avenues. So I'm not near campus at all. I'm going to a singles ward that everybody who lives in that area is not going to be a student. So I think the youngest people there are probably around 24, 25 to 30. However, before they'll kick you out, right to 30 something. When do they kick people out of singles world?

John Dehlin [00:50:17] It changes all the time, you know, But I think now they've got like 25. You age out into a different group and then it's like 25 to 35 and then you're out by. It's always changing.

Michelle Clyde [00:50:28] Yeah. So I'm going to that singles ward on my own because I moved in with my two friends that were like, you know, some of my closest friends from childhood. They were like not going to church anymore. And so I would go by myself and I was on a street and the church was on K Street. I didn't have a car, so I would in my skirt, get on my bike and ride my bike on my own to go to church because my friends weren't coming. Funny enough. Actually, here's another cameo in my story. One of the members of Studio C was in my ward, Mallory with the curly hair. So she was one of the early society teachers. It's like so much random, like Mormon royalty.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] My story, it's like Mormon comedy troupe on BYUtv.

Michelle Clyde [00:51:12] Yeah. So studio C is like a clean Saturday Night Live and they came from BYU students. So she was in my ward. So it's mostly these mid 20s single adults. And I'm 18 since my birthday is in August. August 27th. I had just turned 18 when I started University of Utah. And so when I'm. I started modeling for this agency and it's a tough time. It's a tough world.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:41] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:51:42] People, you know, when you see. If you would have seen me on Instagram at the time, people would have thought, wow, she's so glamorous and she's doing all these things. In fact, I only did two paying jobs the whole time. So the rest was Like, I would do these shoots and not get paid for it. So the two ones I didn't get paid for was. Do you know who Tan France is?

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Yeah. From Queer Eye, right?

Michelle Clyde [00:52:06] Yeah. Before he was on Queer Eye, he just had a clothing company. And I modeled for his clothing company. He's such a sweet person. He's really small. I remember when I meet him that he's like a very short person. But I modeled for his clothing company. And then I modeled. I was on the COVID of a Utah bride magazine, which I was 17 at the time, so it's kind of bizarre that I was like a bride at 17. But the rest of the year.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Very fitting.

Michelle Clyde [00:52:31] Oh, very, very fitting for Utah, I suppose. But I. Yeah, it was a hard time because I would go into these castings and they're always measuring you all the time. Yeah, they always have these tape measures and they're measuring your. Your waist and your hips and your chest and your inseam. And I always wasn't small enough back then. Like, I was really thin, and I still wasn't small enough.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:58] Wow.

Michelle Clyde [00:52:59] So I was very thin. I look at pictures, you know, like, how much my collarbones jut out. Like, I was very thin. And I still was always being told that I wasn't small enough. So I was like, well, I really want to model in LA or New York. Because right after I graduated high school, I went to New York City with my sister and my mom as, like a graduation trip. And my mom is so trusting. Like, she. I think it's. Cause my sister and I were such squares. Like, we. We did not really date in high school. Like, we didn't get asked out on dates. Like, my mom was very trusting of us. Like, one time they left us home alone when we were in high school. Cause they went on a trip with my brother to his mission place in Korea for three weeks. Just me and my sister with a debit card from my mom. And you could see that she trusted us a lot because we weren't having parties, we weren't having boys over. And so when we were in New York City, I, like, she was like, okay, yeah, go meet some of these vine friends. So I was 17 and I'm meeting these friends from Vine. These are all adults. And when I think back about it, I'm like, it's kind of weird because some of them were like, these people I'm like, chatting back and forth with were adult men, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:11] Right.

Michelle Clyde [00:54:11] So kind of weird. So, you know, I've been to New York and then When I'm these two friends I'm living with in Salt Lake City, we do a little trip to LA together and we meet another. Some of my vine friends in la. And so I'm like, I really want to model in either LA or New York because I've been to those places. I have some friends there. And so I decide I'm going to get really down on my diet so that I can fit these requirements. I'm sure it's probably different now because there's such more of a body positivity moment going on right now. But, you know, even in 2015, 2016, it still was very much like, if you don't fit the sample size, you can't come right. And the smallest or the biggest your hips can be is 35 inches.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:03] Wow.

Michelle Clyde [00:55:04] Yeah. So I'm. I'm 5 10, and I am going to classes at the University of Utah, and I'm bringing my little protein bars and protein shakes. Probably only eating 1000 calories to 1200 calories a day because I'm just like, you know. And my friend who lived with me at the time, she kind of recalls it. She's like, I remember you would just sit there with your bags under eyes,

Margi Dehlin [00:55:26] eating your spinach before you kind of dazed out. And energy just.

Michelle Clyde [00:55:30] Yeah, energy's low. And I was just really wanting that. And so I get down to £120 for five'10 is very small.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:42] Right.

Michelle Clyde [00:55:44] And I weigh. So I weigh myself and then I measure myself, and I'm still 36 inches. And at that point, I'm just like, I, this isn't gonna work. Cause I'm like barely eating anything. I'm like feeling terrible about myself all the time. You know, I'm looking in the mirror, I'm always pinching. Back then, the thigh gap was the rage. Girls always wanted a thigh gap. So, you know, you're always looking in the mirror, you're pinching and prodding. When you're in photos, you're. You're angling yourself the best way you can. And at that point, I was just like, you know, this isn't gonna work. And so I kind of had a breaking point where it was like, well, modeling. I'm not gonna be able to model, so what should I do?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:25] And this was on your own that you. Wow.

Michelle Clyde [00:56:29] Yeah. So I'm living in Salt Lake City, and I would come down to Springville maybe once or twice a month. I'm just by myself and, and doing this.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:39] And you came to this. The realization too, of just. I'M not gonna be able to do it on your own.

Michelle Clyde [00:56:46] Yeah, it was just like, I can't push it any further.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:48] Yeah, that's right.

Michelle Clyde [00:56:49] Because I'm already, like, at the edge of it being too much. You know, I have an app, and I know that one banana is this many calories and one egg is this many calories, you know? And I'm basically eating the exact same meal every day because I just know that's how many calories it is. So I can just, you know, and so I get to that point where I just remember, like, there's the scale, there's the tape measure, and I'm like, I can't do this because I just cannot meet the standard. And, you know, the modesty culture that the church teaches, you already get a little bit obsessed about your body because you're always looking about your hemlines and is your shoulder covered enough? And are people judging you? You know? But then doing modeling, it was, like, times 10.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:32] Right.

Michelle Clyde [00:57:32] I'm sure every girl who grew up in the church knows that, like, feels that the obsession about the body that the church kind of puts on young women, but it was definitely times 10 for me. And, yeah, I had that moment. I was just like, I can't. I can't do this anymore. And that's when I thought, well, maybe I could go on a mission. Which is crazy that that was what I thought.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] Wow. Yeah. Just serve a mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:58] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [00:57:58] Because if I can't model, I might as well serve a mission. I don't know why those are the only two I options for my future. But those two. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:10] That moment, though. Goodness for you.

Michelle Clyde [00:58:13] Yeah. And I. I had these two. They were called visiting teachers back then, which is every. Every ward, you know, the adult women are assigned to go to. Kind of now it's called ministering, which. It means kind of just you're supposed to take care of each other. So I had these two visiting teachers that were very caring of me because I was this young girl, you know, and they would visit me. You know, they did their job like they're supposed to. I've never seen anybody do visiting, teaching, or mentoring as well as those two. Like, I literally haven't had anybody visit teaching me since, which is kind of crazy, but. And I would tell them about how I was feeling, that, like, oh, I thought I, you know, wanted to model, and it's not working. And they were very much like, do whatever your heart is telling you. They never told me anything like, well, you can't model or you should go on mission, they were very much just like, do what your heart's telling you. And I think I. That was good for me because there were these older. I mean, they're not older. They're probably like 25. But to me, as an 18 year old, they were older than me and they were just kind of telling me, like, do what your heart tells you.

Deciding to Serve a Mission

John Dehlin [00:59:14] So, yeah, that's great. Now, this would have been after President Monson lowered the age for women to serve.

Michelle Clyde [00:59:23] Yes. So my brother was. I have an older brother who's three years older than me. He was already just turned 19 when they lowered that. So he started the big craze of the mission, you know, booming missionaries going. Because they lowered it to 19 for women and 18 for boys, which. The age disparity. Why did they even have it? But, you know, I think we can guess. I think it's because they're like, well, maybe a girl could get married at 19 before she goes, you know, or whatever. But. So my brother and his wife, they actually met on their marriage. They both served in Taiwan. So while I was in high school, junior and senior, he was in Taiwan. And I took Chinese class because I thought it'd be fun if I could kind of know some Chinese because he's in Taiwan. But it was hard for me to know anything, which I think is just a lack of education for language education, I think is really terrible in high school. So it wasn't necessarily due to my own efforts, but I thought it was. So I. I prayed to not go to Taiwan, and I submitted my mission papers in secret. I didn't tell any of my family.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:32] Oh.

Michelle Clyde [01:00:33] Because I wanted it to be my decision. And so I didn't tell my parents. It's kind of funny because, like, they're gonna pay for it, but I didn't tell them. So missions, you pay for them. And I think the total mission cost is like $10,000. It's like $400 a month. I don't know if it's different for 18 months, but, you know, it's not a small cost. But I was like, I'm just gonna do this on my own because I want it to be my decision. So, yeah, I apply in secret. And when my mom. I send the letter to Springville, so my mom gets it. Now they don't even give you the paper. Now it's online. Can you believe that? It used to be this big thing where when missionaries would get their envelope, you'd all open it with your family and you'd reveal where you're going. And now they get an email. That's kind of sad to me, but yeah. So I send the envelope to my mom and she's of course, overjoyed, and she's like, oh, I wanted you to go, but I never wanted to tell you you needed to. So she also was very much like, she wanted me to follow my own path, which I'm grateful for. But I was like, you know, my Chinese class was too hard, so I prayed to not go to Taiwan. Anywhere but Taiwan, which is so weird. I'm like, I could even go to Japan, but not Taiwan.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:42] I think Chinese is harder than Japanese.

Michelle Clyde [01:01:44] It's not, actually, because now I'm studying Japanese and Korean, so.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] Oh, I ate Korean super hard.

Michelle Clyde [01:01:51] Korean's more difficult. Japanese and Korean are more difficult than Chinese. But anyway, so can you guess where I got called to is Taiwan. So I opened it.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Her son in law went to Taiwan, by the way.

Michelle Clyde [01:02:02] Your son?

John Dehlin [01:02:02] Son in law.

Michelle Clyde [01:02:03] Son in law, yeah. So I opened the letter and I'm just like, you know, I prayed not to go there. Yeah, how could I get called there?

John Dehlin [01:02:12] So, yeah, the Lord's ways are higher than our ways, right?

Michelle Clyde [01:02:15] Yeah, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] Isaiah 55.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:19] What did you feel about that? Do you remember having feelings about that because you specifically didn't want to go and prayed?

Michelle Clyde [01:02:26] Yeah, my prayer was so specific that I didn't wanna go.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:29] So do you remember how you processed that or what your thoughts were?

Michelle Clyde [01:02:33] Yeah, I was upset. I don't remember being upset specifically at God. I think maybe I was like, maybe God knows me better than I do, which I actually did believe because as we'll see, I ended up loving my mission. So, yeah, I was upset, but my cousin also went to Taiwan, and I grew up next door to some cousins that were also twins. And so we were really close to them. And one of those cousins, she went on a mission to Taiwan as well. So she became like a confidant and I would talk with her. And at this point, the story is where I go to the temple for the first time.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:08] We get it direct from your journal of 2016. Me. Let's hear her.

Michelle Clyde [01:03:16] Yeah. So I found this journal entry.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Just like, show people the COVID of your journal.

Michelle Clyde [01:03:22] It says, everything is going to be okay. My mom gave me this, which is funny, I guess, because missions are hard.

John Dehlin [01:03:30] So that's your missionary journal or pre.

Michelle Clyde [01:03:33] No, I actually think I wrote some entries in it right before I left my mission, and then I left it at home and then I returned to it later. But so I find this journal entry. And it's really interesting because so I went to the temple for the first time, which most missionaries do right before they serve their mission. And the pro city center temple, I think was quite new at that time. And so that's where I went to get my. Get my endowment. So the endowment, I don't know how much information I had beforehand. All I knew was that has something to do with Adam and Eve.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] Garde of Eden.

Michelle Clyde [01:04:19] Yeah. The mission prep has much to be desired. Yeah. Temple prep. Yeah. Let's just say they don't really tell you what you're going to do. So there may be a reason for that. There may be a reason.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] Well, partly it's the Masonic relic that the Masonics, the Masons, were sworn to secrecy.

Michelle Clyde [01:04:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] And since the temple was imported from Masonry, then the secrecy part. But there are other reasons too.

Michelle Clyde [01:04:47] So growing up as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, as we say, it feels very like normal. You go to church on Sunday, you go to some activities, you take the sacrament, you talk about Jesus. Yeah, there's Joseph Smith too, but I don't ever remember him like talking about him that much. I don't know, maybe it's just, just my time. Like we didn't talk about them that much. So there's kind of like we're like Christians, but like a little bit quirkier than Christians because we have the word of wisdom where we don't drink coffee. But in general it felt quite normal. It didn't seem that crazy to me. So then I go to the temple and it's like, now this is different. So I'm going to read from my journal entry. This is the 9th of August, 2016.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] Wow. So eight years ago.

Michelle Clyde [01:05:33] Yes. A lot of feelings have been spinning around my head. I guess I should talk about my first time at the temple when I was going through the initiatories. I felt good. So pause. The initiatory is like a washing and anointing ceremony which feels very biblical. I was surrounded by women who I could tell had great feelings of love for me. Their words were beautiful and I came out to my mother smiling. So that's the special thing about the temple is that actually the women do the washing and anointing for women. So, you know, they are putting their hands on my head and saying these blessings. So I felt special doing that.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] It's almost like women have priesthood in

Michelle Clyde [01:06:11] that part of the temple. Yes, I'll continue. I had gone into the temple believing I had an open mind. I Heard some things through the grapevine about handshakes and I knew we would have some sort of green apron and things. So I believed that I was prepared for what was to come. During the endowment, we watched the film that was beautifully made and I was feeling okay. There were a few things that were a bit sexist, but I didn't want that to put a damper on everything else.

John Dehlin [01:06:42] So I'm not.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:44] Don't let it put a damper.

John Dehlin [01:06:45] But you're noticing that as an orthodox Mormon.

Michelle Clyde [01:06:48] Yeah, that I'm like, this feels a little sexist, even though I'm like, you know, drinking the Kool Aid as much as the next guy. But even that felt weird. When we began putting on our clothing, I looked around at everyone in their baker hats and veils and I was a little bit like, wtf? Just a little bit. A little bit like wtf?

John Dehlin [01:07:15] Okay, wait, so like if you go to ex Mormon Reddit, you know, the temple hats are referred to as baker hats.

Michelle Clyde [01:07:21] I mean, that's what they look like.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Yeah. But I'm just wondering whether you came up with that yourself.

Michelle Clyde [01:07:26] Yes, I did, because I was just like, that's what it looked like. That's funny. I said, not really. But I was just like, okay, this is a little weird.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] Wtf? That's great.

Michelle Clyde [01:07:37] So my brother and sister in law were the witness couple, which means that they would go up and kneel on the altar in front of everyone and they were representing Adam and Eve. So that was kind of fun. During the prayer circle, I felt uncomfortable. So there's everyone goes around in a prayer circle around the altar and we had to cover our faces with the veils at the time. Now they don't.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Just the women.

Michelle Clyde [01:08:01] Just the women. I think that's why I was like, this is a little sexist because we have to cover our face with the veils. And I was uncomfortable with that.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] That. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:08:08] And again, I discovered this journal entry last week, so I forgot that I felt this way. And when we all did and when we did all of the things at the veil, I thought, this is bizarre.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] I couldn't. It's where it's. You go to be. Pele Ale. Everyone would chant. Pele, you say? But now it's oh God. Hear the words. Yeah, oh God. And it's all chanty and everything.

First Temple Experience Before the Mission

Michelle Clyde [01:08:32] Yes. It's very like, like I said, regular Mormonism feels very normal. And suddenly we're wearing clothing and chanting and doing hand signs. I was just so unlike the rest of Mormonism. It felt like I Couldn't help but thinking that's what they do here every time people go to the temple. I knew that everyone's first time was weird. And so afterwards I was just like, okay, I had all of my family there and we ate sushi afterwards and it was fine. So there's this restaurant that used to be across the street from where the temple is at the City Center Temple. And it was like the Japanese restaurant my family always went to because my dad served his mission in Japan. So that was like our Japanese place. But you can see the temple through the front window of the restaurant. And I just remember sitting there and like, I know what they're doing in there now.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:24] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [01:09:25] Because it's secret. Like you're not supposed to know what they do in there. And so I'm like eating the sushi and thinking that's what they do in there. Like, the veil has been lifted. Right.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] Your eyes have been opened.

Michelle Clyde [01:09:38] My eyes have been opened. The morning after though, I was filled with uncertainties. For some reason, I was shook with all of these feelings that I didn't have before. I was uncomfortable about the experience and two things swam in my mind. I did not like that and I did not want to do it again.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:58] Wow. Wow.

Michelle Clyde [01:10:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:01] Clarity.

Michelle Clyde [01:10:02] Yeah. The whole day as I was doing my activities of the day, I couldn't stop thinking about it. Every time I came in contact with endowed members, I would think about them in the weird get up and think, omg, they're all crazy.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:17] They all wear baker hats.

Michelle Clyde [01:10:19] They all wear baker hats because all these people I know who are down, like they're doing that in there. I felt like I had to swallow all of these thoughts, but they were overcoming me. I spiraled into Google searches of people sharing their first experience, most of them now ex Mormons, talking about how much they didn't like it. This is probably the first time I ever googled anything that had to do with ex Mormons were posting. So the negativity perpetuated. I read about all of these things that they used to do or say during ordinances that are now abolished.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] Would you believe it was way worse.

Michelle Clyde [01:10:53] And they were crazy is what I say. So I told you that I had a cousin that went served a mission in Taiwan. So I said at 6:30 that Friday, I knew I had to talk to someone. So I texted this cousin in a frenzy and I actually drew little speech bubbles. So I actually like wrote our text messages out because I knew this was something that I needed to record in history, which is so interesting. So I say my mind is buzzing about what happened in the temple. I didn't like it, but I pretended everything was fine to my family and I don't know who to talk to about at all. She says, you can talk to me. I say, last night I was like, okay. But when I woke up this morning, I was in shock. I thought I was prepared with what was running through my mind as, omg, we're all in a cult. We are all in a cult. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] I mean, that's your authentic self.

Michelle Clyde [01:11:42] That's my authentic reality. My reaction at that time was like, what is happening? Like, this is not what I thought.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] And you weren't under the influence of the Internet of other ex Mormons. This is just your raw, genuine reaction.

Michelle Clyde [01:11:54] Yeah, I mean, I Googled, like. Cause I wanted to see is anyone else feeling this way? So, like, I am saying some things online, but, like, that was my raw reaction, was like, we're in a cult. Like, what's happening? You know? She replies, I can see how you could feel that way. And I said, I know I'm supposed to learn and feel something and that everyone's first time through is confusing and weird, but I'm struggling finding these meanings with the endowment. She says, was it the prayer? The prayer circle? It was the prayer that made me feel that way when I first went through. I say the prayer was uncomfortable. Yeah, but the veil thing, it made me think, do I really need to prove these things to God to get to the celestial Kingdom?

John Dehlin [01:12:34] And we're talking about getting the handshakes right.

Michelle Clyde [01:12:37] There's like, saying the correct words. I just reading this back, I'm like, wow, I forgot I felt this way.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:43] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [01:12:44] I knew I had a bad time, but I really compartmentalized that. I forgot how I felt. And then, you know, of course, because I did some Googling said, do Masonic rituals. Like, do I need to do that to get to Celestial Kingdom Masonic rituals. I thought striving to be like Christ was my goal. I know it's just symbols for these things, but for some reason, I am feeling like I didn't sign up for this. This. How am I supposed to preach the Gospel? To have people to have the goal of going to the temple, when that's what it is? Because we talk about the temple a lot in sacramenting and young women's. You know, it's all about, someday you'll get to the temple. And. And the temple is so great. And I'm just like, I have to teach people on my mission that this is what their Goal is.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:26] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:13:28] So anyway, I invite.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] That's perfect. That's.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:31] That's amazing. That is amazing.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:13:35] So I'll just finish this last page. I just said I was home alone, and she came over and talked to me about it and made me feel at ease. I said to her, I don't even know who told me that these things are weird, who told me that these things were cultish or strange. I just feel that way. And then she encouraged me that I really just need to keep going.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:54] Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] Turn it off.

Michelle Clyde [01:13:56] She said, I know that this isn't the greatest advice, but you really just need to go again and again because then somehow you'll be okay with it. We talked about a lot of things, and I felt so lucky to have her. Said I felt like I couldn't talk about it with anyone else because my mom was so proud of me and I didn't want to ruin that. I know that it's really a place where Satan got me, where I was vulnerable. I can see that there is beauty and holiness about something, and he can attack it. And then they try to crush you.

John Dehlin [01:14:24] So that's basically saying your internal voice is Satan.

Michelle Clyde [01:14:28] Yes. My intuition is actually Satan.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:32] Right. Okay. So this is so interesting because you have a lot of people. I think their voice really gets canceled out in Mormonism. They can't really hear it. They can't decipher. You have this really clear moment of your voice emerging, this. You. This identity that's different from the Mormon you. Does that make sense? And then. Which is beautiful and could lead you off Mormonism. So it's quick. Mormonism comes in and quick labels it as, like, devil.

Michelle Clyde [01:15:04] Satan Got me down.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] And even the temple ceremony has a Satan figure that warns all the people. In the temple ceremony, if you do not walk up to every covenant that you make in this temple this day, you will be in my power.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:16] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] You know what I mean?

Michelle Clyde [01:15:16] Yeah. So, you know, this will become a theme. But, like, feeling that my intuition is not to be listened to.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:23] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [01:15:23] Right. The way, you know, I. I now am. Like, it's so funny that what we think is the Holy Ghost. Like, what you're is what your gut is. It's like, now I can just rely on that. Like, I know what's right for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:36] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:15:36] Which is kind of. Kind of feels great.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] But Julia's making the point. Just, she's texting me that. You're doing your journal wrong. You're. The way I did my journal is I wrote my Journal, like, thinking my posterity will. Will give a rat's rear.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:50] So filtering it.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] And so I'm writing in my journal what I think is going to be inspiring to my posterity. You're actually writing your candid, vulnerable, true feelings. You're doing your journal wrong. I'm joking.

Michelle Clyde [01:16:01] Yeah. But it's funny because I actually always knew someday when my kids read my journals, it'll be really embarrassing. Like, I just. I've always treated my journals as somewhere where I could just be like, true and raw. Including now, like, I sometimes don't like, you know, I hope my posterity. I don't wonder what they'll think when they read this, but very much, like, just to help me to get my feelings out. And it's funny, cause I think I did that multiple times where I would write down the speech bubbles of text messages that were significant. Like, I just wanted to record things to keep a record of it.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:30] That's right. I'm so glad I did as they actually were.

Michelle Clyde [01:16:33] Yeah. And I'm so glad I did because I tend to have a positivity bias. I know most people, like, have the opposite of that, where like, negative experiences always are trumping their positive experiences. But I tend to move past things. I forgive, like, things really easily. It's just helps. It's my peace. Like, even if somebody doesn't deserve forgiveness, I forgive them even if they're wrong, just so I can have peace. And so I move past negative experiences pretty well. Like if my husband and I get in a fight, it's like, I don't remember the next day what we were even fighting about because I just very much am like, positivity bias. So it's interesting reading back on that because I'm like, I forgot how I felt. Like, I forgot that I wrote we're in a cult. We're in a cult. You know, like, wow, that I dared to say that, you know, even in my personal, personal diary.

John Dehlin [01:17:22] So powerful.

Michelle Clyde [01:17:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:23] Thanks for sharing. So you. So then I guess you turn that off because now you gotta go serve a mission.

Michelle Clyde [01:17:30] Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, you just gotta say, well, that was the devil. And I gotta just go, what was the MCC like? So it was kind of special because when I got my. I got my patriarchal blessing right before my mission, and then, you know, my parents dropped me off. And those were the first two times I'd ever seen my dad cry my whole life during my patriarchal blessing. He was emotional. And when he dropped me off, he's emotional. I Knew he was crying because he was proud of me. Which, you know, double edged sword to that, like, comes from proud of what you're doing. But that was special, like to see him being so proud of me. I wasn't always like super close to my dad and so just, you know, he's very much like the provider figure and my mom was the one that I turned to, so. So that was special to have that. But when I was in the mtc, I struggled with feeling like I wasn't enough. I had not read the Book of Mormon myself to that point, just kind of like sporadically. But I'd never just like, like, oh, I'm going to sit and read the Book of Mormon. You know, it's like. And then you pray at the end. That's kind of what you're supposed to do. And I'd never done that. And so I'm in the MTC and I'm thinking, I don't know what I'm doing. And I just, you know, I think they've changed the way they teach languages now, but the way they did it back then, you step in the door and they immediately start speaking Chinese to you. That doesn't work unless you're like a child, by the way. Like that type of language acquisition does not work unless you're a child because, like, it's just gibberish, right? And so you're immediately hit. And I'm like, well, I've taken two years of high school Chinese, so I sort of know how to read the Romanized Chinese. So that was one leg up I had. But like, I could barely say anything. And so I was, you know, full of doubt. I was always crying. I felt really bad for my MTC teachers because they just always had to deal with me crying because I was just always thinking about how I wasn't good enough, that my Chinese wasn't good enough, that my gospel knowledge wasn't good enough. Which is so bizarre because, you know, I went to four years of seminary, I grew up in the church, and somehow I'm still feeling like I'm not good enough.

Mental Health Struggles in the MTC

Margi Dehlin [01:19:39] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:19:41] So, yeah, that was hard. And eventually they, they had me talk to the mission or the MTC counselor, and it was really lame, let me just say. Like, he did a lot of talking, not a lot of listening, which is just like, well, this is how you should feel, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, what about me, like, sharing how I feel, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:03] So was he telling you how to feel basically, or how to. When he's talking what is he? Do you remember?

Michelle Clyde [01:20:10] I just remember sitting in that room and I'm like staring out the window at the mountains while he's talking. And it's just like very much like.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:16] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:20:16] It's just like he's kind of trying to tell me about, like, how I'm, you know, how I'm supposed to deal with the thoughts or just. Yeah. It just didn't feel very much like how if I went to therapy now, I would not seek someone like that. Right. Someone that is just validating your feelings and listening to you and giving you and helping you, guide you to the place you need to go. Right. It was very much just him chattering at me.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Well, the church has a long history of sort of viewing the mental health profession as an enemy. Because if, heaven forbid, your therapist said, you know that voice you heard in the temple that was actually, you pay attention to it, well, that's not going to be good for your faithfulness on your mission or to the church. So there's a conflict. There's a genuine conflict of interest between the church and any mental health professional that they would recommend to somebody struggling. And so the guy's not there to have you connect with himself. Yeah. To have you become.

Michelle Clyde [01:21:09] Yeah. To connect with my true self.

John Dehlin [01:21:12] Yeah. He's there to have you be on plan and stay on plan.

Michelle Clyde [01:21:15] And interestingly, my now husband, which, spoiler alert, I do get married eventually, he is in medical school and he was doing rotations at the instacare in Provo. It is commonplace for MTC missionaries to go to the instacare because they think they're having a heart attack, but it's because they're having a panic attack. Yeah. My husband was talking to one of the, I think one of the medical assistants. He's like, oh, that every day. Every day at the.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:44] And did that allow you to kind of feel validated that it is a very intense experience?

Michelle Clyde [01:21:49] Yeah. That it's like, you know, it's intense there. And we. I was there for nine weeks.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:54] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:21:55] There was some great things about the MTC though. I had two companions and we just had a blast together as companions. My district included all the people going to Chinese speaking missions. So Chinese speaking missions are like, go everywhere in the world like you wouldn't believe. There's a German mission for Chinese speaking.

John Dehlin [01:22:14] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:22:15] Like California, Canada, New Zealand, Australia. I mean, they go everywhere. And there's also a group of missionaries are going to Hong Kong and I guess because it's harder for. At least this was in 2016. It's harder for Americans to get visas to Hong Kong and Macau. The majority of the missionaries going to Hong Kong were from Great Britain. So flirtation ensues the mtc. You know, you get all these young people. Like, there was a lot of flirtation in the mtc, but it's forbidden. You know, you're not supposed to, but there's a lot of like, oh, do you think that elder's cute? Oh, yeah, this elder's cute. You know, and so there was a lot of that in the ftc, which would, you know, horrify the leaders who are leading the mtc. But it's like, what do you expect? You got all these 18 and 19 year olds and they're just, you know, it's almost sort of like efy, right? And I went to EFY for two years and it's like a church camp where you all go and it's like, oh, you're around all these people who are, you know, worthy, quote unquote. So it's like they're all, you know, free game. So, yeah, there was a lot of flirtation in the mtc.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] I guess the church wants that just to be controlled, right?

Michelle Clyde [01:23:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] Did you have worthiness issues in the MTC or.

Michelle Clyde [01:23:26] No? I mean, like I said, I was such a square.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] No, I'm. I guess I'm referring to you confessing to your mission president.

Michelle Clyde [01:23:32] Oh, that's later. I'll kind of talk about that later. But yeah, I mean, I never had any, like, the intense worthiness things like most people have because, like, I had like one, like two second kiss in high school and we didn't really date, so it was never really a thing for me. But when I was in the mtc, I brought these books written by David Ridges, which were these guidelines for the Book of Mormon. And it was like, how to make it easier to read. And it was like the first time in my life that I actually was like, ah, I'm understanding the Book of Mormon and I never could. And then I was told, well, that's not the standard works. You can't read those. Oh, interesting. Because missionaries are only allowed to read the standard works, which is the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants. And you weren't supposed to read things that were like guides or, or, you know, commentary for some reason, I don't know. But it was like, ah, like I finally felt like something was clicking with me and then they snatched it away.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:30] That's right. You're having this positive Experience feeling like actually something that was not accessible now is really making sense. And then they say, actually, no, that's not.

Michelle Clyde [01:24:41] You can't.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:42] You can't be doing that. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:24:44] It's like, you know, I finally found something that was working for me. Like, I'm already doing so much compartmentalizing, obviously, with the temple, and, like, things are, like, freaking me out. And then I finally find something that's like, oh, they're explaining these things to me and how I get it. And then they're like, no, you can't use that.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:59] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:25:00] Like, you're not allowed. So, yeah, there was a lot of ups and downs. Like, again, it was nine weeks. It's a long time to be in the mtc.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:07] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:25:07] But I do have an experience where I remembered feeling wretched, of course, because I was the worst because I couldn't learn Chinese in a day, and I didn't have all the scriptures memorized, and I was just feeling terrible about myself. And, you know, I was crying a lot. And on my top bunk bed in the little missionary dorms, I, like, said a prayer. Because at that point, I felt like I didn't really understand what the atonement was. People would talk about Jesus in the atonement, but it wasn't really something I felt connected to. But I prayed that, like, I would feel better. And when I woke up and I went to sleep the next morning, I felt great. And I really felt at the time that that was a manifestation of the atonement working on me, which, you know, I think about it now, and I'm quite a morning person, and I always feel great in the morning. Like, I feel super refreshed, like, every morning. And so maybe that's probably part of what it was. But at the time, you know, I felt like this is the atonement working on me, is that I was feeling terrible, and now I feel great. So, you know, I did have those spiritual experiences. Another story in the MTC that I won't go too deep in, but I did. One of my wisdom teeth fell out in the mtc, which was a really crazy experience. And my mom had to come. I was a week away from going to Taiwan, and not my wisdom tooth. I'm sorry, I wrote that wrong. I have two implants.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:31] Oh, okay.

Michelle Clyde [01:26:32] Cause I'm not going to fall out. I have two implants because I have two baby teeth that didn't, you know, come in, and one of them started falling out, and it was, like, super painful.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:42] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:26:43] And so my mom had to come get Me. And it was. She was so emotional because here I am wearing my missionary name tag, and she's like, oh, but I was supposed to go to Taiwan the week after that. And so they were like, what are we gonna do? She takes me to my dentist. And there was no consideration for, you know, what's best for your health is we take care of this and you'll go later. Like, there was no consideration for that. It's like, we gotta get you, you know. So in this crazy whirlwind, they were like, okay, well, we'll just take it out, put another post in. We'll give you the crown with a teeny little Allen wrench. Six months from now, you'll put it back yourself.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:21] It's a do it yourself tooth implantation. Yes.

Michelle Clyde [01:27:27] So he's like, hammering this thing in. There's, like blood pouring down my face. My mom's in the corner, like, what is happening? And, you know, I get my hydrocodone from the pharmacy.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:27:38] And I go.

John Dehlin [01:27:38] Because it's Utah County.

Michelle Clyde [01:27:40] Well, also, you know, tooth pain is not to be messed with.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:43] I will say, I've heard too, those.

Michelle Clyde [01:27:45] Of course tooth pain is not to be messed with. So that hydrocodone, it does come in clutch. But so the next morning, I'm back to mtc. The next morning, I take the hydrocodone. And temples used to have cafeterias in the basement, but they for some reason decided we're not going to do that anymore. So every P day, which is your preparation day, we would all go to the temple, which is like, across the street from the mtc, which is a missionary training center. And we usually would get breakfast at the temple cafeteria before we did any session or anything. So with my district, and I'm like, I just took this hydrocodone, and I'm like, let's get breakfast first. They're like, no, we'll get breakfast after. And what do you think happens on an empty stomach when you take medication like that? So I'm sitting in the chapel of the temple, which is where you sit before you go do an endowment session. And I'm like, I'm not feeling good. And as we all stand up to file out to go into the endowment room, I pass out. So I just fall over. And that day, not unbeknownst to me because I was in MTC missionary mode, you don't know anything about the outside world. I come to, and there's all these faces above me, and there's this one temple worker who, like, rushes over and she's like, I'm a nurse. And she says, do you know what your name is? I'm like, my name is Michelle.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] You give her your temple name or your real name.

Navigating Faith and Mental Health on the Mission

Michelle Clyde [01:29:19] And she says to me, do you know who just got elected as President? It was 2016, the day that the president got elected, but I didn't know that. And I'm sitting there like. And she says, donald Trump. And I'm like, why did you tell me that? Because I didn't support Donald Trump. She probably thought, what good news to give to you, missionary. But that's how she had me come, too. Interesting, Interesting. Do you know who just got elected? I'm like, how would I know? But she's like, donald Trump. And I'm like, like, oh, I'm not happy to receive that information. I'm on the ground, pale as a

John Dehlin [01:29:55] sheet, you know, don't make it worse.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:57] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:29:58] So that was what happened right before I went to Taiwan. So that's a funny story. Yeah. Then I. Then I go out on my mission

John Dehlin [01:30:08] and just how was your mission? You know, how was it for your mental health?

Michelle Clyde [01:30:13] So I, you know, still had struggles with feeling like I wasn't good enough throughout my whole mission. And my mission trainer, who's still a dear friend to me, she also struggled with mental health. So she was like, I already talked to the mission. We actually had a psychologist who was a senior missionary in our mission. So that was really lucky. It's like, not normal. Usually for missions, they have an area that they have, like, one guy who they just call people on the phone and, like, you know, it's just some random person you call on the phone. But we had a missionary couple where his wife was a nurse and he was a psychologist. So kind of a power couple for a mission. And so, like, we knew him, we'd, like, see him in person. And he was a really friendly guy. And so she was like, well, I already called admission psychologist. You should call him, too, when you're struggling with things. And so I call him and he tells me about positive affirmations and which. Do you know what that is?

John Dehlin [01:31:08] Yeah, Stuart Small.

Michelle Clyde [01:31:10] So he tells me, you know, the brain is susceptible to believing things, which is funny in a Mormon context, that if you tell yourself something enough times like it will, you can manifest its truth, or you will just begin to see yourself more positively. So he said, oh, you can. One of your positive affirmations can be. I speak Chinese just as well as a native. It seems crazy, but I'm telling you, it works. Because I wrote out a piece of paper of my positive affirmations about myself. Just like things that aren't obviously true. But you say it as an I am statement. I am a knowledged scriptorian or whatever it is. I don't remember what they were, but whatever it was, it really helped me. And he also taught me about the inner locus of control versus the outer locus of control, which is being motivated for self rather than by external forces.

John Dehlin [01:32:05] Nice. And that's solid.

Michelle Clyde [01:32:07] Yeah. I'm learning things from. Very helpful that are like, compared to the MTC guy, like, this guy's great. And he's also like, I, you know, I see he's a really friendly person too when I see him at like mission conferences. And so he's teaching me things that end up being very useful even now. Like, I still do those types of things in my life. You know, I do meditations and I do those positive affirmations and I, you know, just changing that motivation mindset for like being motivated for the right reasons. So I'm starting to use these spiritual. I would say I think it kind of falls in the realm of spirituality. These methods that like, you know, praying and reading the scriptures aren't working. Just, you know, going to church isn't working. But these things are working for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:49] So you're kind of doing an upgrade of sorts.

Michelle Clyde [01:32:51] Yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:52] Is that what you would say when it comes to kind of mental health and approaching difficult circumstances?

Michelle Clyde [01:32:58] Yeah. And I. It's just kind of interesting, like reflecting on it because it's like those things were really working for me, me. But it's like that's because those other things weren't working.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:05] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [01:33:06] You know, so yeah, got it. So those were helping me. And so yeah, on the start, in the beginning of my mission, I was like really intense about learning Chinese. Like I got so into it that you're supposed to wake up at 7am in my mission because I think our mission was special. We could wake up a half hour later and go to bed half hour later, normally at 6:30, because Night Market markets and like people out more often at night.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] So you stay up later.

Michelle Clyde [01:33:34] So you stay up a half hour later.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:36] On my mission.

Michelle Clyde [01:33:36] It was like we got special permission because the mornings aren't as productive, I guess in Taiwan. So yeah, I would wake up sometimes an hour half an hour earlier, which you're technically not supposed to do because you're supposed to always like be in sight and sound of your companion. But I would either go in the bathroom even Just under my sheets, and I would get a little flashlight and I would look at my flashcards.

John Dehlin [01:33:56] See, you got a break of the rules.

Michelle Clyde [01:33:58] Well, it's like. Yeah. To be more awesome for learning.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:02] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [01:34:03] Because I just had so much desire to understand the people. Like, you know, you kind of get these phrases that you can say as a missionary, but I wanted. When people were speaking to me, I wanted to understand.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:15] Yeah, you wanted to be able to connect to them.

Michelle Clyde [01:34:16] And I felt such a deep love for the people. Like, I will say, like, I had zero culture shock. It was like. Like the opposite. When I went home, I had culture shock because I just loved their culture. I loved the people of Taiwan. I love their food. I'm a vegetarian. And, like, it's like a Mecca for vegetarian food. Just because they have. If you're devout Buddhist, you don't eat any meat. So there's tons of these little Buddhist restaurants that would be my go to. I just love their culture. They're so polite and kind. And of course they, Like, I was blonde at the time. I dyed my hair blonde. And of course they're like, oh, my gosh, a blonde, tall, American. So they're like, you know, they're a bit enchanted by that. And so the people were just so kind. And so I just really desired to be able to understand them and talk to them. So I was, like, getting really intense into language studying, which now, like, I've since been diagnosed with adhd. So I can see it's sort of a hyper focus, like, you know, hobby that I kind of get into these things where I get really obsessed with something, and I think that's what that was like. Learning Chinese became a little bit of an obsession for me.

John Dehlin [01:35:22] Nice.

Michelle Clyde [01:35:23] So, yeah, I got really into that and my first two or first three companionships, it was kind of like, we taught some people, but, like, nothing was super crazy. But my fourth companion, who is now, like, still one of my really good friends, she. I was a Stanford student, very, very intelligent, very, very driven. And she rubbed off on me because she was like, missionaries have a handbook. That's the white handbook, which is all the rules. And she says, if you follow every rule to a T, like, you'll get blessings. And so I got obsessed with obedience on the mission to a point that, you know, became a little bit detrimental. But I was like, okay, we're gonna do everything. As missionaries, we're supposed to wear these little light reflecting vests called fangguang dai, which is like. Because missionaries have died in Taiwan on bikes. So it's like, it was a rule. The moment the sun went down, you had to wear these light reflecting vests while you're riding on your bike. And anytime I saw another missionary who wasn't wearing one, I would get after him, say, you're not wearing your fong guang, dad, and you've got to put that on. And I would. I was really intense about obedience, but also in that companionship, we were really successful. We. We had a lot of baptisms and I got into the culture where I just talked to everybody. So I would talk to people at the 7 11. There's like a million convenience stores in Taiwan. So I talked to everybody at 7:11. I talked to everybody on the street. We would be riding our bikes and I would just pull over and start talking to somebody. And I would find a lot of investigators or I would do like a lot of the beginning work of teaching and finding. And then I would. And then I would leave an area and then somebody else would baptize the person. Just because it takes a little bit longer than a few weeks to baptize someone. And so I was a little bit like, I did all the work, I found them and I, you know, and then they got to baptize them. But so when I was with that companion, we had two transfers together. Like, I saw, okay, this is, this is working. Being really intense about everything, being every little rule, we've got to follow it to perfection.

John Dehlin [01:37:35] It's kind of like an eating disorder, but for religion.

Michelle Clyde [01:37:39] So, you know, I learned the word scrupulosity this year, and I don't know if it's like, was, you know, diagnosable scrupulosity, but it was definitely like, if you don't do everything perfect, something bad's gonna happen. Because that means that the person that's supposed to hear the gospel is not gonna hear it if you don't do everything perfect.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:56] Right? That's right.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:58] Yeah, you're responsible.

Michelle Clyde [01:38:00] You're responsible for their salvation.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] So, yeah, it's intense.

Michelle Clyde [01:38:05] But then I would see missionaries who were being disobedient and they were getting baptisms, and I was like, what? That doesn't follow the theme. And also, like, I was thinking this gift of tongues things seems like nonsense to me because there's a lot of missionaries out here whose Chinese is terrible, you know, so. Oh, the gift of tongues. The gift of tongues. It's this concept that basically, if you're serving God, then which I don't think any other Christian church interprets it in this way. The Gift of tongues. But in the Mormon Church, it means that you can magically be good at languages. Right. On the mission.

John Dehlin [01:38:37] Well, that's what it means now. When it. When it was actually originally written in Joseph Smith's time, early members of the church literally spoke in tongues, just like Pentecostals do now. But they had once that was de. Emphasized, because these spiritual gifts kind of can get out of control if God's telling you something that he's not vetted with the president of the church or whatever. So they. That's new. They've morphed.

Michelle Clyde [01:39:05] They've morphed it to mean that.

John Dehlin [01:39:06] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:39:06] But I remember thinking this kind of seems like BS because I feel like it's just equal to how much you work. It's because I'm like, I'm working really hard to learn Chinese, and I'm speaking Chinese pretty well, and, you know, people are noticing, and it's making me feel really good because I'm studying really hard, and it's paying off.

John Dehlin [01:39:24] That's what's pernicious about scrupulosity, is that you get positive reinforcement for extreme religiosity. So it's not experienced necessarily as a bad thing. Right. Even if it's bad for your mental health.

Michelle Clyde [01:39:36] Yeah. But I mean, yeah, it was working. And so I would look at these other missionaries, and I'm like, well, they're Chinese is kind of bad. And so I don't really think this gift of tongues thing is actually working unless it's like, it's equal to how much work I put. Put it, not how, you know, it wasn't computing. And then it was like. But there are some people who are finding these golden investigators, which is like, somebody who's just primed to join the church, basically. But they're being bad. Like, they're, like, going off with the elders on P days and, like, having crushes on each other, and that's bad. And. But they're getting baptisms.

John Dehlin [01:40:07] What you didn't know is that there's such thing as baptism fraud, which is what I experienced on my mission, which is people using undue influence. Missionaries using undue influence to convert people that really are. Aren't converted.

Michelle Clyde [01:40:17] Yeah. Or it was just. It had nothing to do with the missionary. It was just this person wanted to join the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:22] Right.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Had nothing to do with it or flirt to convert. Right.

Michelle Clyde [01:40:24] Yeah. And it's just like. But I wasn't connecting that at the time. I thought it was very equated to me, my obedience, my perfection.

John Dehlin [01:40:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:32] Interesting. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:40:33] That's what was equating to the success

John Dehlin [01:40:34] head games with you.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:35] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:40:35] And so when I was seeing people who weren't being perfect and perfectly obedient, like, I was like.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:40] You'd be puzzled.

Michelle Clyde [01:40:41] Yeah, I'm like, that. That doesn't make sense. And I met an elder who said, you know, there's two kinds of sisters on the mission. There's cool sisters and there's scary sisters. And you, Sister Clyde, are a scary sister. Because I was like, if I saw them stepping a toe out of line, you know, I'd be like, we gotta talk about this. It was hard for me because I had these district leaders that I felt weren't, like, up to par. Like, they weren't following the rules, they weren't being an inspiration to me. And I would talk to my mission president about it, and he's just kind of like, like, well, you gotta allow them to be a leader. So kind of just ignore that and just allow them to be a leader. You know, which.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] We were similar missionaries.

Michelle Clyde [01:41:20] So you were a crazy, obsessed missionary.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:22] It's almost like. So the way that you, like, judged yourself, you started evaluating others by the same measure.

Michelle Clyde [01:41:30] Yes. And I was very judgmental.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] Yeah, me too.

Michelle Clyde [01:41:33] Yeah. I definitely was, like, looking down at the people who weren't being perfect.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:41:38] It's natural.

Michelle Clyde [01:41:39] You know, perfection's impossible anyway. But I definitely was like, well, this guy over here. And I was not as critical of sisters just because I think I'm naturally more empathetic to women and more scornful of men. But I was like, these elders and, hey.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:53] And they're. I mean, we're not equals. We're not equals. No. So the expectations. I think I couldn't be a leader

Michelle Clyde [01:42:01] over elders, but elders could be a leader over me.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:05] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:42:05] Was that bugging you?

Michelle Clyde [01:42:07] I think it was because, you know, I felt like I had the formula, and I felt like I knew what we were supposed to do. And so I was like, well, how am I supposed to listen to this person that I felt like wasn't, and

Margi Dehlin [01:42:16] that would reinforce you being harsher on them.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] Yeah, makes sense.

Michelle Clyde [01:42:20] Yeah. But it got to a point that, like, my mission president called me one day. I think because you write a letter to your mission president every week, and they were looking a bit concerning to him, I suppose. And he calls me just kind of on a random evening, and he says, you know, Sister Clyde, I've never told a missionary this before, but I think you need to relax. Can you imagine a mission president telling a missionary they need to relax. Because it was getting to the point where I was very much turning to myself, like, if everything isn't going right, then I'm terrible.

John Dehlin [01:42:50] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:42:52] So he's like, you need to relax because it's hurting you. And my mission president, and I hate the term mission president's wife, but that's what they call it.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] It.

Michelle Clyde [01:43:01] His wife as well, were great leaders. Like, they were wonderful. They. They worked off of high love. High expectation is what they called it. Yeah. Because they had high expectations for us, but they showed a lot of love to us as well. Like, he would say I love you on the phone to missionaries, and it felt very like loving. So I've heard some horror stories, like Mormon stories of some mission presidents being pretty awful. But he was great and his wife were great. So, you know, that was no problem.

John Dehlin [01:43:26] Well, that's when it becomes scrupulosity is. If it's working for you and you feel great, it's not a problem. But if the intensity is starting to wear on you, then it becomes a disorder.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:37] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [01:43:38] Yeah. Because I was assigned a companion who was a native Taiwanese. I had three native Taiwanese companions, which is unusual. Most people, either they've never had a native companion, or they only had one. But I think maybe because my. My mission president's like, well, she speaks pretty well, so I'll entrust her with being these missionaries companions. But I had a new. She was only converted to the church, like, two years before she served her mission. And, you know, being a member is already high demand enough. Being a missionary is like being a super member because it's like, there's more rules. There's enough rules. And just being a regular member of the church, but being a missionary, it's like, let's add more rules to her life. So she was, like, struggling with all the rules.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:44:19] And I was like, Mrs. Rules, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:44:21] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:44:21] So we were having a really hard time. It was like, every decision we made, we were, like, butting heads and. And, you know, because I'm like, we need to be obedient. And she wasn't being obedient. So it was, you know, and there were screaming matches, which I don't really feel like that's my personality, but it came out of me at that time. And when we stopped being companions, like, he realized it wasn't working, you know, my mission president. And so he transferred her out, and I got a trainee. But when I would think about our companionship, like, I would start shivering. I would start shaking because it was like, kind of Traumatic, like, being in a constant state of unrest. I had never been in that, you know, because I grew up with parents who were very, like, they didn't yell. And I grew up in a very peaceful little town. And I never grew up in that state of, like, always feeling, like. I wouldn't say unsafe, but just, like, you can't be relaxed at any moment because that companion even, like, ran away from me once and, like, rode her bike and I lost her. And you're supposed to always be together. And so just so much stress from that companionship. And so I'm like, every time I would kind of ponder it, I would start shivering and shaking, which is so weird. But I prayed to forgive her. And it took a few prayers, but I, like, a few months later, after she wasn't my companion anymore, I ran into her and, like, I had no bad feelings for her, and I just hugged her. And that, like, it's weird. That's making me feel emotional. But that was, like, an experience to me that, like, forgiving somebody. Like, I felt so much peace to be able to forgive. And that's, like, been a pattern in my life that, like, just. Just find peace from, like, letting things go. And so, like, that's actually a pivotal part of my life that I've always felt since that moment that any hard thing that happens to you, like, it is to build you. Because I learned a really valuable lesson from that experience that I could forgive her for inflicting so much just unease and just stress on me, and I could just not feel any bad feelings for her. And she's actually since left the church, which is interesting. I, like, send her a Christmas card and we chat sometimes. And, yeah, that feels very special. A special mission experience that I could just, you know, let it go.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:43] And how was she in that moment? Do you remember when you hugged her and you felt real love?

Michelle Clyde [01:46:48] I think she was surprised. I think that I could just hug her and there was no, like, scornful looks or anything. I think she was a little bit like, oh, oh, okay. But, yeah, I could just. I could just move past it. And I think that's, again, like, my positivity bias. I think it's such a gift. Like, I still believe in spiritual gifts in a way, and I think my spiritual gift is forgiveness, because I can just. I can just let things go.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:13] Yeah. I have a question for you about this kind of role of enforcing rules. Did you find in your mission, did it make it harder to connect to people around you?

John Dehlin [01:47:27] You.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:29] When you're. When you're providing feedback or evaluation or. No. Did you find that there was a lot of support for that, that people appreciated it?

Michelle Clyde [01:47:39] I guess I think there was both. I think kind of getting in that judgmental mind. I felt like, you know, I would observe when I would street contact, when somebody would become my investigator. Like, I loved them so much. Like the feeling of love I felt for them is like also a beautiful experience for my mission, that I just loved those people. But sometimes when I would street contact and I would talk to people and they had like no ambitions for their life, you know, I'd kind of try to tie in our message with, with their goals and ambitions and there'd be people who. What do you like to do? I don't really like to do anything. What are your goals? And it was very much like they just wake up, go to work, play on their phone, go to bed. And I just like there was no ambition in, in my state. I was like pure ambition. And so I felt like getting in that mindset made me very judgmental of people sometimes because I would just be like, well, this person, they don't get it. They don't know what they're missing. Because I was able to follow all these rules from the church and the mission and everything. And I felt like I had found the.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:40] And there's such striving in that, right? You're constantly striving to have to. How about with your fellow missionaries, the people that you're working with?

Michelle Clyde [01:48:50] I think my companions, besides, you know, that one I just mentioned, were really inspired by it. Like when I trained my trainee, like when I talked to her this day, like, it always surprises me. She's like, oh, all my companions named after you, they like, they knew about Sister Clyde because you are like a hard working missionary. And that felt really good to hear because I was like, well, you know, all that stress is worth it if people could hold me to, you know. So I think like, so I became a sister training leader at one point and I think it did inspire a lot of missionaries. But I think the elders that were my leaders were a little bit like annoyed by it, right? Because I thought I, like, I didn't allow them to use their authority, right?

John Dehlin [01:49:29] Because.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:30] Oh, interesting.

Michelle Clyde [01:49:31] So I think some of the elders that I kind of tell off, they would be like, well, Sister Clyde over here on her high horse, which I was on my high horse.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] Would you have identified as a feminist at that point?

Michelle Clyde [01:49:42] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] Because you would have used the word.

Michelle Clyde [01:49:45] Yeah, I think so, because. So when I was going to the U. I forgot to mention this. I went to the University of Utah just for that. I went through three semesters and I took a sociology class that kind of awoken. Awoke my mind to feminism. Because we would talk about, like, conditioning with children, how, like, oh, giving children the girl toys and giving boys the, you know, the boy toys. And we would talk about kind of feminist things. And I sort of became. Became like, awoke to that and identified with that. So I do think. And because I don't think I was ever super close to my dad, I think it probably was like, I always connected with women more. And so I. And like, looking around me like women ran the world. Like, women created Christmas women. You know, every kind of magical thing in my life was because women created it. And so, you know, being on the mission, I definitely felt like, well, the sisters, you know, they know what they're doing, but the elders, they're a bit disobedient.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:39] You're like, the sisters, they're the magic.

Michelle Clyde [01:50:41] Yeah. And I think even the members would be like, oh, we love the sister missionaries. Because I think, you know, women sometimes are a bit more empathetic or personal, just up front maybe. And so even the members were like, oh, we love the sister missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] I hope of this doesn't seem like condescending or whatever, but are you aware that, like, the Sister Training. Sister Training leader position was created after the Ordained Women movement as a way to appease women, to make them feel like they had some responsibility?

Michelle Clyde [01:51:18] I didn't know that, but I was. I was just a training leader just for the last little bit of my mission. But it definitely.

John Dehlin [01:51:24] It's like a crumb.

Michelle Clyde [01:51:24] You could kind of feel that it would. Was a crumb. But, you know, as a missionary, you're so busy anyway, like, leadership, whatever. I guess some people probably wanted to be leaders, but I was just like, you know, I'm here because I want

John Dehlin [01:51:37] to baptize people, but you've been conditioned to go, power, whatever. I'm a woman. Power, whatever. Authority, whatever.

Michelle Clyde [01:51:43] Yeah, I guess, I think.

John Dehlin [01:51:45] Or maybe I'm projecting.

Michelle Clyde [01:51:47] No, actually, you're reminding me that kind of my whole life, I've always sort of a little bit like side eye authority figures. Like, I've always sort of felt like rules have to make sense. And I think that's why I liked the mission rules, because they seem to make sense. Like, you're supposed to wear that Fang Guang dye because it protects you. You're supposed to only have a. Your lessons are only supposed to BE I think 45 minutes to an hour, because it helps you not to, you know, waste time. I felt like they made sense. So I always felt like authority doesn't make sense. Has to earn respect for me.

John Dehlin [01:52:21] Sure. Good.

Michelle Clyde [01:52:21] Which, you know, isn't really the church way, but somehow that's just how I felt that, like, I wouldn't just automatically respect someone just because they were in a position of authority, which, like my district leaders, I didn't really respect some of them because they weren't. To me, they didn't earn it yet,

Margi Dehlin [01:52:34] you know, so a level of discernment

John Dehlin [01:52:36] with authority, which is dangerous to orthodox Mormon.

Michelle Clyde [01:52:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Yeah.

Doubts and Difficult Mission Experiences

Michelle Clyde [01:52:42] But speaking of authority, elders, Cook came to my mission.

John Dehlin [01:52:46] This is Quentin Cook. He's an apostle.

Michelle Clyde [01:52:47] Yeah. So apostles often will visit with a whole mission and just to kind of motivate them, give speeches and things. And so he came to our mission and gave a talk, and he said that they specifically pick missionaries for missions like Taiwan, which are really difficult. Language and just, you know, cultural and just kind of hard missions. They like. Like pick the cream of the crop. That's what he said. So we're, you know, what kind of message is that? So if you get called to Montana, like my brother, does that mean you're a.

John Dehlin [01:53:21] You suck.

Michelle Clyde [01:53:22] You suck. You're a misfit. And my brother felt that way in his mission. He didn't enjoy his mission in Montana.

John Dehlin [01:53:26] My brother went to Sacramento.

Michelle Clyde [01:53:28] So it's like. And that's from an apostle's mouth that he's like, oh, we picked the cream of the crop, basically, to come. Like, he just wanted to say, we hope you know, that you're here for a reason, because we know you're.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:39] You're.

Michelle Clyde [01:53:40] You're good.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:41] Right.

Michelle Clyde [01:53:42] But that, like, what does that do to your ego to hear an apostle say that?

John Dehlin [01:53:46] But another thing he said, it's demeaning to other missionaries. It really is.

Michelle Clyde [01:53:49] Yeah. I mean, just in that room makes us feel great. But what about people who don't go to missions like Taiwan? Right. But he also said something to us that was memorable. Quentin L. Cook. Is that his full name? He said to us that, you know, we don't want to talk about spiritual experiences too much because they're sacred. But I want you missionaries to know that I've heard the voice and seen the face of Jesus Christ. So we're all sitting there, like, he actually speaks to Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:54:25] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:54:26] I'd never heard something like that before. You kind of, like, wonder, but he, like, then you're starting thinking in the Salt Lake Temple, they're actually meeting Jesus

John Dehlin [01:54:36] and they want us to think and feel that way. The problem is there are prophets historically on record that have said, I've never seen Jesus, I've never talked to Jesus. And generally they're discouraged from saying that type of stuff publicly in general conference. So it's the kind of thing that, number one, they could be lying. Number two, it could just be their imagination. Number three, it could just be a dream. But number four, they're only gonna say that in a like, closed curated, non public setting. But it is undue influence because he's basically saying, I talk to Jesus, so obey me.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:10] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] We talk to Jesus, so obey us. Right.

Michelle Clyde [01:55:14] Yeah. And you know, I've since listened to your episode about the second anointing, but I can't remember his name. But he thought he was gonna see Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] Tom Phillips.

Michelle Clyde [01:55:23] Tom Phillips thought he was gonna see Jesus because that's kind of the message. And he was disappointed because there was. He wasn't there. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, that kind of was a bit, ooh, like, this is the real church. Because he just told us that he knows that. I even remember that exact phrasing. I know the face. I've seen the, heard the voice and know the face of Jesus Christ.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:42] It's like a power play.

John Dehlin [01:55:44] It really is. Really is. And he's the type of personality to do that, honestly. Yeah, from what I've seen.

Michelle Clyde [01:55:50] But interestingly, one of my investigators,

Margi Dehlin [01:55:55] I

Michelle Clyde [01:55:56] met an investigator and she seemed really awesome, like, so prepared to, like hear the message. And when we get to her house, she has done some googling and she has learned that the apostles get a stipend. They get paid.

John Dehlin [01:56:11] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:56:12] I didn't know that. My whole life as a member, I didn't know that they got paid.

John Dehlin [01:56:15] That's like 300 grand. And they have like a million dollar credit line that they can draw against for things like a cabin in Midway or Heber. You know what I mean?

Michelle Clyde [01:56:22] So isn't it interesting that, like, probably a lot of members don't know that information?

John Dehlin [01:56:27] Oh, none do.

Michelle Clyde [01:56:28] That they're getting money. And so this investigator is telling me that I think there was like, she'd seen something about Peter Dorf buying a house or something.

John Dehlin [01:56:37] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:56:38] And I was distraught because I had no answers for her. I didn't know what to tell her. Like, I didn't know. It was new information for me. So I go to my mission president and I tell him, like. And he says, well, you know, kind of probably what Anyone would say, well, it's because they leave their whole life. But they're. Honestly, they're older, they're retired already, and

John Dehlin [01:56:57] most of them are super rich.

Michelle Clyde [01:56:59] Well, he said to me that not all of them are rich, but some of them, if they have money to buy a big house, like, she was saying, it's because, you know, he was a successful pilot or, you know, whatever. And so he kind of, like. I was like, okay, I guess I. I can see that they have to give up everything to be in the church. So I guess.

John Dehlin [01:57:15] But Boy Packer was, like, an educator, and he had multiple, like, at least three houses when he died. And, you know, Joseph E. Link Smith, too. Like, they make a lot of money. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:57:26] Yeah. But I. I was. Another moment where I'm kind of like, something feels weird. But I was, you know, pacified.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:36] Right.

Michelle Clyde [01:57:36] Oh, don't worry about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:38] It.

Michelle Clyde [01:57:38] There's reasons, you know, they all the.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Almost all the apostles have cabins in Midway or Hebrew.

Michelle Clyde [01:57:44] Like, really?

John Dehlin [01:57:45] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:57:45] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] Yeah, for sure.

Michelle Clyde [01:57:47] So, yeah. Another moment of that.

John Dehlin [01:57:49] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:57:49] But so, you know, I. We have the apostle come, then I'm learning apostles. Actually, there's something I don't like about the apostles.

John Dehlin [01:57:58] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:58:00] So, yeah. But I'm winding down on my mission, and I'm getting letters from my sister throughout my mission, and I'm finding out that she's struggling with her mental health. My twin sister.

John Dehlin [01:58:13] Wait, you may have said this. Did she serve a mission?

Michelle Clyde [01:58:15] No.

John Dehlin [01:58:16] Oh.

Michelle Clyde [01:58:16] So, yeah. So I'm on my mission and my sister is not. And it's, like, becoming obvious like, there's something going on. She's at byu, and her mental health is really struggling at byu. And so that was really hard for me to hear. But also. So she's not going to church anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:31] Oh, that was while you were on your mission.

Michelle Clyde [01:58:34] While I'm on my mission, I'm learning that she's not going to church.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] She told you that?

Michelle Clyde [01:58:38] Whether she stated it in, like, clear language or not. Like, it was kind of like, you know, I came to that knowledge. I can't remember if it was clearly stated or just kind of, like, vague that she wasn't going to church anymore. So, yeah, that was hard to hear. Oh, I forgot to tell the story about talking to my mission president. You should tell that now.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] Yeah, I was just gonna say, like. So y' all were identical twins, right?

Michelle Clyde [01:59:00] Fraternal.

John Dehlin [01:59:01] Fraternal twins.

Michelle Clyde [01:59:02] We were really close.

John Dehlin [01:59:03] You were super close twins. So. Yeah. Like, when you're super close, twins oftentimes you're, like, inseparable until you get married kind of thing. So y' all did something a little different in that you kind of went your separate ways even right after high school.

Michelle Clyde [01:59:20] Well, she's. Yeah, I think I. I wanted to differentiate. Like, I sort of felt that I needed to be my own self, like, after high school that I think she even brought up to me. She said, you told me I wasn't allowed to go to the U because you were going to the U. Which I'm like, I'm so sorry that I told you that, but I think I kind of needed that.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:39] Yeah. So you were wanting some space to self develop and differentiate.

Michelle Clyde [01:59:45] Yeah, I wanted to kind of figure out who I was.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:47] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [01:59:48] But, like, hearing that she was, like, not going to church, like, I remember thinking, I'm gonna hold my marriage hostage until she can come in the temple with me.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:58] And I have.

Michelle Clyde [01:59:59] And my. One of my older brothers sort of, like, wasn't going to church either. Like, I think before my mission, it was kind of obvious because he didn't go inside the temple for my. My. My third brother's wedding.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:11] Okay.

Michelle Clyde [02:00:12] So like I said, our family doesn't talk about things. It's very much like, we don't talk about. It doesn't exist. So there was never, like, strict conversation of, like, so, older brother, how are you feeling? You know, about the church, it was just unspoken. Like, you just noticed he wasn't doing the things anymore. And so I'm like, I'm gonna not. I'm gonna. When I get engaged someday, I'm gonna say, I'm not gonna get married until you guys can come in the temple with me. How terrible is that? That I had that thought that I would, like, hold them hostage, which, obviously, when I actually got engaged, I was like, I'm not doing that. But the time I was like, I'll do anything to try to help them to come back to church.

John Dehlin [02:00:48] Yeah, we've covered this. Just even recently, when you're on a mission trying to convert the world and your own family starting to leave, it can really mess with your head and your psychology. Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:00:59] And I really do think that missionaries are in sort of a brainwashed state that it's like, I completely lost my sense of self. But there was still some little inklings of, like, me being myself, because I remember I had argument with a mission companion, which is so funny because she's so liberal now, but that we were talking about gay marriage. And I was like, you know, I think they should be able to get married. Because. Right. This is 2016, 2017. Like, it's already legal. So I'm like, I think they should get married. Like, I still support, like, that movement. And she's like, but, sister. Like, it's against the church. And I'm just like, well, I don't agree with that. So there were still some little moments where I'm like, you know, being me.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:39] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:01:40] But for the most part, it's like, I definitely was, like, losing my sense of self when I was a missionary.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:46] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:01:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:47] Part of what I love about your story and why I'm comfortable going into this level of depth when we've been trying lately to kind of keep things under three hours is because you're hitting all the marks of why these zillennials, or whatever you're calling them, why they're leaving the church in droves. It's LGBTQ stuff. It's feminism stuff. It's the cultiness of the temple. It's church history stuff. And it's just sort of like the feeling empowered to listen to their inner voice, and you're just hitting all the milestones, all the markers for your generation.

Michelle Clyde [02:02:22] Yeah, yeah. It's just interesting. It's just very much, like, writing out my outline. It's a reflection of, like, oh, that's what was happening to me.

John Dehlin [02:02:31] It's like therapy.

Michelle Clyde [02:02:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:32] Just Mormon stories therapy.

Michelle Clyde [02:02:33] Yeah, exactly. But, I mean, that is your background. To close off my mission. There was just two more things that you wanted me to mention was that I was starting to be eaten, like, inside my brain of, like, oh, I watched some inappropriate TV shows before my mission, and, like, that was sinning. So I watched the show Orange Is New Black, which has a lot of, you know, lesbianism, nudity, everything, and swearing. Swearing. And so I felt like, well, I think I need to confess to my mission president. So that's all I did, was watch a TV show. Right, Right. I didn't even know that masturbation for women was a thing, so that obviously wasn't happening, but I was like, so

John Dehlin [02:03:18] you're 20 and 21, and you didn't know that?

Michelle Clyde [02:03:20] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [02:03:21] Wow.

Michelle Clyde [02:03:21] I didn't know, like, female anatomy till after my mission. Like, when I was, like, getting married, I kind of did some research. Right.

John Dehlin [02:03:29] Wow.

Michelle Clyde [02:03:29] I didn't know. So I go in and confess to my mission president that I'm like, I watched this some bad shows, and he's like, anything else? Like, no. You're like, isn't that enough?

Margi Dehlin [02:03:44] You don't understand what was in that

Michelle Clyde [02:03:45] show that's been eating me alive. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:48] But when he said anything else, he was meaning now.

Michelle Clyde [02:03:51] And I'm thinking about it, I'm like, yeah. That's why I was like, well, what else would there be?

John Dehlin [02:03:58] But you say in your notes. He was thinking, probably what?

Michelle Clyde [02:04:00] I think he was probably wondering if I had masturbated. But, like, I didn't even know that was a thing back then. And so I just confessed that I'd watched this TV show with nudity in it, you know, and he read me a scripture that says, if you confess and forsake your sin, then you are forgiven. Right. And I did those two things. I said, I will never do that. I never watch shows like that again. Which, you know, I've watched some shows of nudity now, but it is what it is. It's just the human body. But anyway, so, yeah, that was really funny for me to, like, reflect on, because anything else? What else could there be? And then in my exit interview with my mission president, I had asked him what he thought about me maybe modeling again when I got home, which is so weird that I even thought I wanted to do it again because it was so bad for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:49] But.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] But also that you would ask his opinion.

Michelle Clyde [02:04:53] Yeah, because he was my leader. I had to know his opinion.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] You're not asking his wife, you're asking him. Right?

Michelle Clyde [02:04:59] Yeah. Do you think that it would be okay if I modeled again? And he says something along the lines of, I don't think it would be fitting of a disciple of Jesus Christ, something like that. Right. He wasn't super, like, don't do it. But I think he was kind of, like, not a good idea, which not for the reasons that he probably thought, but just because the industry, I don't think, is great for girls. So I come home from my mission, and I did, like, a tiny bit, but then I was like, no, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do that anymore. So that was that. But I did feel the need to ask his opinion. Yeah. And when I got home from a mission, just, like, here and there along the way, people are like, my people from my mission. Like, you kind of see them on Facebook. Oh, that person has a tattoo now. Oh, that person has a male partner, and they're a male. Oh, like, you just. I'm starting to see a lot of missionaries from a mission.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] Sister so. And so is showing her shoulders.

Michelle Clyde [02:05:57] Yeah. This person doesn't look like a missionary anymore. A lot of people from my mission are gay. I have three Companions that have come out to me.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] Wait, three of your mission companions?

Michelle Clyde [02:06:07] Three of my mission companions. Whoa. Lgbt.

John Dehlin [02:06:11] Whoa. Companions.

Michelle Clyde [02:06:12] Yes. On, you know, on any of that spectrum. So beautiful. And they knew I was a safe person to tell that to.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:20] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:06:20] And one of them just got engaged. I'm so happy for her. Yeah. So, yeah, it's just kind of interesting, like, watching that process, and it was kind of just like another one bites the dust is what I was kind of feeling like, because I'm still very much in it, but I'm watching, like, people are leaving. Not only everyone I grew up with are leaving, but a lot of people from my mission are leaving.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:44] What's that? Like, so, like, that's its own thing, the domino of, like, it's a virus. Leaving the church is a virus. How did that affect your testimony or faith at the time?

Michelle Clyde [02:06:54] No, I sort of always felt, like, this sense of superiority that, like. But I can. I can make it work. Even though I'm a. I would say I'm a feminist. Even though I support more liberal, politically liberal things, like, I can make it work. And also, there was this part of me that was like, I can't be a stereotype. I need to prove to someone. Who are they? I'm proving this to. That you can be liberal and be a member of the church.

John Dehlin [02:07:20] Yeah, of course.

Michelle Clyde [02:07:21] You know, so watch out. Liberalism, it's taken. It's taken the kids. But the reason why we care about these issues is because they're our peers.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:31] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:07:31] They're our friends, and that's why we care. To me, I don't even know why being trans, being gay is political, but it is. Right? It's just someone's life. I don't know who it affects, but to some people, it's political. It's just. It's our peers. It's our. It's their lives.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:46] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:07:46] You know, and my. Everyone thinks that it's someone else's problem, but, like, you know, members of those communities are everywhere. There was a point that my parents were like, oh, by the way, one of your cousins has been gay for, like, 15 years. He's had a partner, and they're just letting him be on the Christmas card this year, you know, so it's like, oh, by the way, one of your cousins that you don't really know very well because you have a million cousins is trans. It's like, they're everywhere, you know, so it's like, oh, that's someone else's problem. No, it's not.

John Dehlin [02:08:18] It's like that privilege you mentioned.

Michelle Clyde [02:08:20] Yeah. But it. You know, it is everyone's family members, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:25] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:08:25] For sure.

Michelle Clyde [02:08:26] So whenever there's messages over the pulpit about, you know, these problems, and they're. It's like people are hearing this, and it's like, that's their child, that's their cousin, that's their friend.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:36] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:08:36] So even if it's not you, even if you're not experiencing that, like, everybody in a congregation knows someone.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:43] And statistically, you might want to consider if you have young children or even teen children, that. That likely you have. You know, you have a queer child, you have an lgbtq. You are. The statistics are you likely have one, and they may be shamed, and they may not come out to you. They may not feel safe. Right. But you. You likely have one.

John Dehlin [02:09:07] And that's another thing about this rising generation. We'll call them zillennials or whatever. Like, if you take gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, non, binary, asexual, all the asexual intersex intersects all the different. It's like 15 to 20% of Mormon youth and young adults. So it's a huge percentage right now.

Michelle Clyde [02:09:28] Even people think, well, there's not that many trans people or intersex people. My husband has already met several patients when he was working at a family practice clinic that are members of those groups. And it's like, they're around us.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:42] Oh, no.

John Dehlin [02:09:43] Intersex is as prevalent as redheads.

Michelle Clyde [02:09:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:45] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:09:46] It's like there's like, 2% redheads, 1.7%. And that includes, like, Klinefelter syndrome and other kind of variations of whatever. But they're all around us, and you might just not know it because someone might look completely female, but they might have testicles or their chromosomes might be. So it's just like, this is very much like a. It's a pertinent issue because you can't hide it anymore. And the thing is, they've always been around, but society just hasn't allowed them to feel safe, to not be killed. Right. And so it's kind of like, oh, it's because the media these days is making everybody gay. It's like, no, it's not. They've always been here. We just didn't have a safe space for them.

John Dehlin [02:10:24] So, yeah, I just received an email from a. A donor that canceled their donation. And I always try and ask, like, hey, is there something that happened? And she was just super mad that we did an episode with Amanda and Shea that was sort of trans Affirming.

Michelle Clyde [02:10:40] And she's like, how dare you support that?

John Dehlin [02:10:41] You know, blah, blah, blah.

Michelle Clyde [02:10:42] It's weird that they think you wouldn't.

John Dehlin [02:10:44] I, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I, I've interviewed like 10 trez code rebels at this point or people like, anyway.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:51] And so you say, go and be well.

Michelle Clyde [02:10:53] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:10:55] Don't need your donations.

Michelle Clyde [02:10:57] Well, we weren't missing the donations. If they're coming from someone with that.

John Dehlin [02:11:00] Well, the thing is these people aren't just like waking up going, I think I'll be trans. You know what I mean? Like, who wants to choose? You know, it's because that's hard. Yeah, it's really.

Michelle Clyde [02:11:11] Because this is what they feel.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] That's what they, it's what they feel. And it's a, a matter of life and death for so many of them. Like, yeah, yeah.

Returning Home and Family Members Leaving the Church

Michelle Clyde [02:11:20] So, yeah, I've come up for my mission and my sister is not believing. Right. She's not going to church anymore.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:25] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:11:25] And I'll just say this is like the worst our relationship ever has been in our life because I'm still in missionary mode and I'm like sort of trying to grill her. Do you even believe in God anymore? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and she even. There's like a tearful conversation with me, her, my mom, when she finally even says, like, I might even be bi. And we're like, you know, and my mom says something about like, living the gay lifestyle. You can't be happy living the gay lifestyle. My mom is such a wonderful person. Like, I know she probably regrets saying that, but like now because she's very open minded to learning. But yeah, so there's definitely like, you know, I'm losing my sister and there starts to be thoughts of like, so what does the heaven look like if people aren't going to be there? You know, it's one thing for like one of your random siblings, you know, but like, this is my twin. Like, it's different because this is my twin.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:17] And it's, it's a, it's a direct confrontation to a person you became on your mission coming in conflict with people you love and care about in real life. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:12:31] Yeah. So we, you know, our relationship was struggling at that point. There's very much obviously, like, she wasn't confiding with me anymore. Like, everything that was happening, she like, wasn't confiding with me because that's like, why would she.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:41] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:12:42] Because I wasn't being a safe person for her to confide in.

John Dehlin [02:12:45] This is when religion starts to divide families, which is my least favorite thing.

Michelle Clyde [02:12:50] Yeah. And I also, you know, I'm still kind of in that mode for my mission where I'm kind of judging people. Right. And I start becoming a little bit of a garment checker even on my mission. Like, I noticed there was a return missionary who was Taiwanese and she served a mission in the US where English was really great. So she was really friendly with the missionaries. But I'm like, she's wearing short skirts. She can't possibly be wearing garments. And I start noticing that like people are doing things and they're, you know, not wearing them is right. And I'm sort of just like noticing things and I'm being a little bit judgmental about it because, you know, I'm still in that brain.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] It feeds ego. Exceptionalism is the ego.

Michelle Clyde [02:13:32] Yeah. And I think perfectionism, that came from my mission. I think I've always had perfectionistic tendencies, but I think my mission really solidified it for sure.

John Dehlin [02:13:40] Mormonism.

Michelle Clyde [02:13:41] Yeah. I really become like, okay, how do I become the most optimized human?

Margi Dehlin [02:13:46] Right?

Michelle Clyde [02:13:47] So I'm like googling how to do everything the best. You know, what do I ought, what do I ought to do? You know? And I'm like, this is real perfect morning routines. Not Mormon routines, but you know, morning routines, like how to do everything the way that you should do it. You should wake up at 5am and you should meditate for this time. You need to work out every day. And so I'm like, and there is

Margi Dehlin [02:14:09] endless, endless self help books. Instagram? Are you kidding? Like there's endless food for optimization.

Michelle Clyde [02:14:16] Yes. And so I'm reading all these self help books and so, so I start meditating and journaling more because of that. Because that's what you should do. Right. Which turns out to actually be a great thing for me because starting doing meditation and journaling and self affirmations and these kind of things end up being really great spiritual practices for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:38] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:14:39] But you know, that self, you know, I have to be good at everything. It leads me to do things that maybe I wouldn't have chosen if I wasn't in, in that, in that mindset.

John Dehlin [02:14:48] But meditation can be dangerous to Mormon orthodoxy, right?

Michelle Clyde [02:14:53] Yeah, yeah. And we'll talk about that later. But you know, I'm feeling really fed by. I downloaded an app insight timer and I've used that for years and I love doing those. But the other thing I wanted to mention is like, I became really close friends with one of my investigators and on My mission. Yeah, she joined the church. She hung out with her like last week. She's moved since. Moved to Utah, did a master's degree here. So she's one of my really close friends. So I am like, there's one passage in the Preach my gospel that I think Elder Holland said something like, if you forget people you taught your mission, it's like you never served a mission at all or something like that. I don't remember the exact wording, but it's very much like, you've got to take care of these people for the rest of your life. Life.

John Dehlin [02:15:38] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:15:38] Okay. So, you know, I thought I didn't get enough. I didn't get very many baptisms because I was always comparing myself to people, but I baptized maybe like 20 something people.

John Dehlin [02:15:48] That's a lot.

Michelle Clyde [02:15:50] So I'm like, I've got to keep track of all these people. And that puts a lot of pressure on me. I have, you know, every year up to this point, I've written hand, like I write out in Chinese a full letter and I write a Christmas card and send it to every person that some people that didn't even join the church, but I just loved and I send them a Christmas letter every year. So I'm like, not only did I serve a mission, but I'm being better than everyone else who also serve missions because I'm keeping in contact with them.

John Dehlin [02:16:19] Can we ask you a favor? This is Margi's idea.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:22] Would you feel comfortable bearing your testimony in Chinese just to give people a sense for what that sounded like of

Margi Dehlin [02:16:28] learning a language or saying anything that. That you feel comfortable saying. It doesn't matter. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:16:32] I'm like, I haven't thought about mission language in a while.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] I know we did this to Allison in Russian and she was like, I don't remember.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:38] And it's.

Michelle Clyde [02:16:39] The point is I can say something to nail it.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:41] Perfect. But to show kind of what you had to learn?

Michelle Clyde [02:16:45] Yeah. I'm really excited to participate in Mormon Stories podcast. It's my favorite podcast.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:00] Wow.

Michelle Clyde [02:17:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:17:02] Yeah. Beautiful.

Michelle Clyde [02:17:03] And I've. I've since learned some Korean and Japanese, but we'll talk about that later. So the next thing that happens in my life is that I start working at Nu Skin.

Marriage, Sexuality, and Life After the Mission

John Dehlin [02:17:15] So on brand.

Michelle Clyde [02:17:16] A very on brand thing. For those who don't know what is Utah famous for multi level marketing companies. Why? Because the Mormons know how to spread the message.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:27] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:17:29] There's some connection with that when you have your connected, tight church group. Everyone was missionaries. You know how to Sell something. So these multi level marketing companies really thrive in Utah. But I heard from a friend of another returned missionary friend that you can get paid. So I started working there in 2018. You can get paid $14 an hour to speak Chinese doing customer service. And I'm like, oh, this is a great opportunity because I can keep up my Chinese, right? And so I start working there, I get trained, and my first day on the phones, I sit next to a young man and I see him and I like, I'm a little bit stopped in my tracks, which is weird for me because I am a little bit like, I don't need no man. Like, I did not intend to get married young because I was just like, like, I'm not going to find anyone that meets my standards because I have high standards. But even just like, when I first saw him, I was like, who is this? Before I even knew anything about him. Which is weird for me because even if someone was good looking, I'd be like, well, that's good for you. But that's not really has nothing to do with me, right? So I sit next to this young man and he went on mission to Korea. So he's doing Korean customer service and I'm doing Chinese customer service. And we start becoming friends and then we start going on dates. And when I started dating him, that's when I say my sexual awakening began. Because I never experienced sexual feelings ever before. You know, just like feeling passion for somebody and you know, he'd make out in his car and you'd feel that tension. And we laugh about it now because it's like we would never make out for three hours. Like you just do the deed and get it done. But like, there's that tension. Like you can't cross the boundaries. So you're just.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:22] And are you both active at this

Michelle Clyde [02:19:25] point in the church? Yeah, we're both. He's a BYU student.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:29] Okay.

Michelle Clyde [02:19:30] He says pre med. He's studying nutritional science. And I at that time was sort of like, what am I doing now? Because when I was at the University of Utah, I didn't really love their art program. It didn't feel competitive enough for me. But I always dreamed of studying abroad. So, you know, I'm kind of compiling some information to maybe study abroad in England. But like, it's just not feeling right. That is annoying to me because, you know, I wanted to be sure of what I wanted. But then we know I started dating him. I'm like, what if I apply to byu? And so, so I applied to BYU and my ACT score doesn't matter anymore because I got all A's at the U, you know, so I did well there. So they didn't care about my ACT score. And I was returned missionary, which I think they like. Return missionaries.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:18] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:20:19] Yeah. So I transfer to BYU when we're engaged.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:26] Yes. And you're having a sexual awakening as active members at byu.

Michelle Clyde [02:20:31] Yeah. Where it's like I'm acknowledging that I'm having these feelings.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:33] Yes, you're having.

Michelle Clyde [02:20:34] Like nothing crosses the line. Right. Because we're like, we know what we're doing. I think anybody who, who says it's an accident, we're like, they're crazy cuz. Like it's not an accident to take your clothes off. Right. But like nothing crosses the line. But like, you know, we're kissing and pressed up against each other and you start to feel some. Something going on when you're pressed up against each other. And yeah, I'm starting to feel like this passion towards him.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:57] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:20:58] So yeah, I. So I start byu and then we get. We're engaged. And I don't need to go into our engagement story, but it does involve a wild animal attack. It's kind of crazy. If you want to hear it, we might not have time for it, but we get engaged. There's a buffalo that attacks a man while we're. He's putting the ring on my finger. I'll just say that if you Google buffalo attack on Antelope island, you'll find my husband's 911 call. Oh my goodness. So I won't go into it because we have a wild story, but yeah, we did witness a man being trampled by a buffalo when he was putting the ring on my finger.

John Dehlin [02:21:34] Oh my goodness. Wow.

Michelle Clyde [02:21:36] Memorable. Yeah, very memorable. But I'm taking, I'm taking the eternal families course that summer semester while we're engaged. And so I start like looking into these Mormon sex books. You probably have heard of them. There's like, thou shalt not be ashamed. There was this other one that like something like that. There's this other one that like literally tells you, like, finally I learned like, what the female anatomy is. Oh, that does this and this does that. And this is how you feel pleasure. So I have like, no skittishness to look into it, but my husband is like, very like skittish about talking about these things. So we'd be like in a car by ourselves and he'd whisper, and if he said the word sex, he'd whisper it. There's no one else here, but he's really skittish about it. But I'm taking this Eternal families class at the same time, which is very much like trying to prep people for marriage. And so they do talk a little bit about sexuality, which is kind of interesting. But I. My mom wanted to give me this book that she didn't know I'd actually already read. But, like, I didn't want to tell her that I was reading these books.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:45] You read like, like, done?

Michelle Clyde [02:22:47] Yeah. And my dad, she tells me that my dad told her, well, don't give it to her yet. And I'm just like, if not now, when? Like, dad, I'm getting married in a month. Like, if not now, when am I supposed to know this stuff? Like, maybe if I'll learn, then we'll. Then we'll break. Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:02] But almost no women do that. No Mormon women study that type of stuff before marriage.

Michelle Clyde [02:23:08] I think it's changing, though, because I've been recently, you know, been to some. Right. Or what are they called, Bachelor parties, where, like, they're given these books, you know, and come together, or they're giving each other vibrator. You know, I do think that there's a bit more, like, we gotta wise up.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:24] Because I can imagine.

Michelle Clyde [02:23:25] Because our. We can tell that our mother's generation never had good relationships, you know, so we gotta change it. And I think there's a bit more education about it now.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:34] Yes. But all for it.

Michelle Clyde [02:23:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:36] Was that good for you at the time?

Michelle Clyde [02:23:38] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:40] And

Michelle Clyde [02:23:42] I've, you know, I kind of mentioned in my outline that, like, I did try masturbation, and I never felt the need to ever confess it to anybody because I thought it was no one else's business, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:23:53] Differentiation. Love it. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:23:55] I just don't think it was. And I also felt like, well, if I'm getting married, I need to know my body. So when I went to a friend who's getting married after me, I wrote her up a little list of, like, tips, and I said, you should probably try that. Which is so crazy that I, you know, this is one of my mission companions. And I'm telling her, you should try it.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:11] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:24:12] Yourself. Because you don't know what's gonna work for you unless you try. But I'm like, that's important. She needs to know that.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:18] I love that.

Michelle Clyde [02:24:19] But I definitely was. I was slowly coming back into my.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:23] Yes. I'm feeling pre mission self.

Michelle Clyde [02:24:25] Like, I'm starting to kind of get back to what I was believing in, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:24:32] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:24:32] And so, yeah, I never felt like I needed to. To tell a bishop about that.

John Dehlin [02:24:37] That's awesome. I hope. Let's make this a clip and share it with all Mormon women and men.

Michelle Clyde [02:24:44] Yeah, it's not his business. It's not an old man's business what a young woman is doing with his business. Especially woman, because it's like creepy guy talking to you about this. You know, it's not his business. And we just need to be a bit more kind to ourselves in that way that it's, you know, I think I did sometimes feel like, is this a bad thing? But then I was like, you know, this is just being a human.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:25:09] And this is healthy for me. You know, it's part of it.

John Dehlin [02:25:11] At this time, I interviewed a comedian early in Mormon stories history. His name is Ben Washburn, and I think he grew up in Springville. But he basically said, they told me it was called self abuse. It doesn't feel like abuse.

Michelle Clyde [02:25:28] I mean, it's just bizarre. Like, I think young men really get the brute of that teaching because as young, you know, it's just part of being an adolescent boy, you just life. And I do think I've noticed that, you know, over the years, my husband has to overcome that kind of like anything that's sexual is evil.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:46] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:25:47] You know, because he was given that. Like anything, like any type of dirty talk or anything. Think bad, you know, and trying to overcome that. Weirdly, there's kind of a stereotype that women struggle with that. But, like, I really think that men do too.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:00] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:26:01] Overcoming the, like, it's bad, it's bad. It's bad now. It's good.

John Dehlin [02:26:05] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:26:05] You know, so we're working on new skins together still. And once they found out we're dating, they didn't allow us to be on the same team anymore. But. Yeah. But anyway, so I have some

John Dehlin [02:26:19] co

Michelle Clyde [02:26:19] workers that are talking. They're both returned missionaries, I think. Yeah. And they're talking about which garments to get that you can kind of get the shortest or which garments to get that you can kind of show the most shoulder. And at that time, I'm like hearing it and I'm like, I say to them, well, I don't feel the need to, you know, modify my garments. And they're kind of looking me. They're like, well, good for you, Michelle. Why are you telling this? But I'm still, you know, a little bit on my high horse. But, you know, there's discussions that I'm witnessing with young women in there when they get Together they're telling each other, oh, if you buy this one, if you buy the petite of the dry silk, then you can get it shorter and you can wear shorts. And I didn't own any shorts. Like, when I got married, my husband's like, you don't own shorts. And I was like, well, I can't because none. They're all ugly. All the long shorts are ugly.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:10] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:27:11] So I don't have shorts, you know, so that's just like a funny thing to mention about garments is like, I'm noticing. Yeah. We're talking about. Young women are talking about it amongst each other, their strategy.

John Dehlin [02:27:23] That's what made you reach out to me. You emailed me because of garment stuff, right?

Michelle Clyde [02:27:27] Yeah. Well, I noticed that there's been an obsession with garments amongst, like general authorities right now, all these talks and articles. I'm like, why are they so obsessed with it? Well, I think we know why. It's because people aren't wearing them the way they want them to.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] High demand religions control bodies, they control sex, they control dress. That's key to the success of a high demand religion or cult.

Michelle Clyde [02:27:51] Yeah, yeah. And so when I'm starting at byu, I have to say that the BYU arts program, I hope nobody gets in trouble, but like, it is a lot more liberal than the rest of byu and we were thriving over there. Okay. I've got classmates who are like openly gay and I have professors who are making Black Lives Matter art and having it displayed in the H vac. So it's a different flavor of byu. I'll just say anytime I heard any critique about byu, I'm like, not my byu. My BYU is this cool side of byu. I said the H Vac byu, that's where it's torn down now. But that was the arts building building. And yeah, it's like we're a bit more open because that's people who are in the arts. That's kind of what, you know, theater and music, all that stuff. I was in the illustration program. And yeah, we were thriving over there. And I had, you know, you'd see a lot of people who were. Had even colored hair in different colors. And no one was telling them it was against the honor code there. But those professors were really making people feel welcome because they did. They were, they were allowing people to feel welcome.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] Wait, is colored hair technically against the undercoat?

Michelle Clyde [02:29:02] You can't have like blue hair or purple hair. You can have, you know, blonde hair. I mean, heaven red. People stopped dyeing their hair blonde.

John Dehlin [02:29:08] It'd be like, yeah, which colors are okay?

Michelle Clyde [02:29:12] By God, you know, brown and blonde and black.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:14] Maybe.

Michelle Clyde [02:29:14] I guess.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] Maybe red is pushing it.

Michelle Clyde [02:29:16] Well, maybe. Depends. But yeah, I was, like, my professors were all really chill. Like, in my program, we would. We would call our professors by their first name.

John Dehlin [02:29:25] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:29:25] Yeah. So it was very chill. And I have a class called Design Theory that I thought was awesome, but I had a classmate who was a bit more conservative, and she would skip it because it was too liberal for her. So that, you know, some people are, like, they can't even stand to be in the room hearing something that they don't agree with. You know, we would talk about seeing art through a feminist lens, seeing art through a colonialist lens, seeing art through a race lens. And we would talk about different lenses and how to view art and how that changes the way you look at certain pieces. You're looking through these lenses. And so we would have these discussions with the whole group about these topics. And for this classmate of mine, she would skip it a lot because she was like, this is too liberal for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:11] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:30:11] But. Yeah, so there are some people who think BYU is too liberal, which is kind of hilarious. But know.

John Dehlin [02:30:17] Were you there? And Holland gave his musket talk. I know I don't want to get

Michelle Clyde [02:30:20] us off track, but I. If it happened when I was there, it must have been like, so I graduated in 2022. When did that happen?

John Dehlin [02:30:27] It was during. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:30:29] Yeah. So the lighting of the Y happened when I was at byu, which a bunch of students went with little lights, and there's a big Y painted on the mountain in Provo for byu. It's kind of weird that we think we can do that to nature, but, you know, that's another topic. But they went around the Y and lit it up with rainbow colors in support of. Was it right after that talk or what? How is that?

John Dehlin [02:30:54] Oh, I think that's been going on for a few years.

Michelle Clyde [02:30:56] That was the first time it happened. And the students, you know, I saw it when I was driving to Provo, and I was like, oh, awesome. For me, that didn't seem weird because I'm here in my little H vac. Byu. Right. The arts. Byu. Which is like, oh, cool. Like, it didn't seem weird to me. There was even, like, a thing called the. The Department of Belonging that, like, was at byu. So, like, I didn't think that was weird. But then I see on social media that, like, that was not okay.

BYU, the Musket Talk, and Progressive Tensions

John Dehlin [02:31:21] So Julie's telling me that Holland gave the musket talk in 2021. So you were there?

Michelle Clyde [02:31:26] Yeah, I was there. Yeah. I do remember. I do remember hearing about and being upset about it, but.

John Dehlin [02:31:33] Interesting.

Michelle Clyde [02:31:34] Yeah, I. At the time, it was just kind of like, you're just in the grind of school. You just kind of got to make it work. But.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:40] But.

Michelle Clyde [02:31:40] Yeah. So after the lighting of the Y, maybe it was a musket talk or just what it was like, it made me upset. And there was these group groups of students who were very kind of maybe desnat y, which is very, like, conservative, you know, United States Exceptionalist kind of a group. And they would. They were doing a protest with umbrellas on campus. They were saying that this umbrella is the family proclamation to the world, and we're protecting ourselves against the world, you know, which is gay people, I guess. But it was directly in opposition to maybe some affirming situations with accepting people who are LGBTQ on campus. And when I was hearing about this, the people with the umbrellas, I was upset, you know, because it was pretty gross that they were doing that.

John Dehlin [02:32:26] The thing is, there were also students having rainbow umbrellas to show their support.

Michelle Clyde [02:32:30] Yeah, there was, you know, back and forth with it.

John Dehlin [02:32:33] Gross.

Michelle Clyde [02:32:34] And so I'm in a sacrament meeting. It was a testimony meeting. I decided to go up to bear my testimony about learning to love people that I disagree with, because I'm, like, really struggling with being like, I'm part of this religion that I'm still 100% in, but there's people doing these kind of things, being really rude to people on campus, and I'm not happy with that. And so I'm trying to, in me spiritually, like, forgive these, you know, very hyper conservative group of our church members, because I'm like, I have to be associated with them, and I'm struggling with that. So I, like, bear my testimony about feeling like. And I don't outwardly say, like, what I'm talking about over the pulpit, but I kind of, like, allude to it because this is like, a bunch of married people who go to BYU in this ward. And, you know, I have a girl come up to me afterwards. She's like, I feel the same way. Thank you for saying that. And that's a pattern throughout these years where I'll go up on the pulpit and I'll say something during a testimony evening, like, where I'll say, I'm struggling with this, but I'm trying to make it work. And that's my testimony that I believe that I'm trying to make it work. And left and right. There's people coming up to me and telling me, I feel the same way. Thank you for sharing that. My son's gay. I feel the same way. Like, I'm hearing that a lot.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:58] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:33:58] You know.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:59] Yep.

Michelle Clyde [02:34:00] So we're not alone. The moment you open up your mouth and say how you feel, like you'll realize you're not alone.

John Dehlin [02:34:07] Yeah. Just. Just a few months ago, I had like 15 non believing BYU students come into my office and just like they wanted to meet and do a little field trip kind of thing.

Michelle Clyde [02:34:17] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [02:34:17] There's entire communities of close non believing BYU students that are terrified.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:22] And they're also, I feel pockets like you're describing of. I know the English department when I was there was very much this way. Just pockets of a little bit more. It's a liberal community. Pockets of safety. Right.

John Dehlin [02:34:36] Also pockets of atheists and pockets of atheists.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:39] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [02:34:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like BYU is such an interesting place right now. They, they know that there's problems going on and the religion professors are trying to be more open about things. So I had a religion professor who basically just talked about that. Yeah, if you get married and then your wife dies and you get married again, then you're sealed to her. But if you're a woman and the same thing happens to you, you have to cancel your sealing to get remarried.

John Dehlin [02:35:09] So speaking the truth.

Michelle Clyde [02:35:11] Yeah, she's telling us about this and that.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:13] She's.

Michelle Clyde [02:35:14] I just want to put it out there. You guys get to decide how you feel about it. That's kind of like her vibe. I loved this professor. She was great. I took two classes from her. She remembered my name and she was really great. But yeah, she would talk about those things. And then I had a. There's a class called Foundations of the Restoration. So all these classes are required. So all of the religion classes are required for every BYU student. So you can't get out of them. There's a foundation of the Restorations class and he had a slide that was like all the problematic things that Brigham Young has said. So they're like trying to show, look, we're accepting that there's problems, but we're moving past it. You know, they're trying to like, you

John Dehlin [02:35:54] know, put it out just so kids don't leave BYU feeling betrayed and lied

Michelle Clyde [02:35:57] to and deceived, you know. But I think those things build up even if you don't feel like you're being lied to. And there's this professor at BYU right now. His name is Anthony Sweatt. And he does art, religious art, of, like, problematic church things. It's really interesting. I don't know if you've heard of him.

John Dehlin [02:36:12] Sure.

Michelle Clyde [02:36:13] So he's done a painting of Joseph Smith with a hat, and it's become one of, like, the image they use for when they're actually showing an image of Joseph Smith with the hat. So Joseph Smith. I don't know. You can explain it. What to do with the hat.

John Dehlin [02:36:26] The way he actually translated the Book of Mormon was by taking this peep stone that he used as a treasure digger, stuck it in a hat, and then put his face in the hat. And then he would dictate, either through fraud or miraculously, depending your perspective, what he was channeling from the golden plates that weren't in the room. Totally different narrative than how we were all taught. The Book of Mormon was translated.

Michelle Clyde [02:36:50] So that image, it's being used in BYU classes. So they're not hiding that anymore. Maybe they were 10 years ago, but

John Dehlin [02:36:56] we made them regret deceiving, you know, 150 years of Mormons.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:01] Yeah, yeah. But I kind of wrote. I went on. If you could look on Anthony Sweatt's website, it's really interesting to see the artwork he's done because it's like some of the things that, you know, sometimes people leave the church about. But here's some of the things that he's painted.

John Dehlin [02:37:14] Julia will include that in the show notes.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:16] Hugh Walker Lewis. Is that the man who is ordained?

John Dehlin [02:37:19] A black man? Was one of the men.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:20] Yeah. So there he did a painting of him getting ordained with the priesthood.

John Dehlin [02:37:24] Yeah. Back during Joseph Smith's day, during Josephus Day, which shows that the priesthood band started with Brigham Young, not just the song. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:31] So he painted that.

John Dehlin [02:37:32] Yeah. That's radical.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:34] He painted a Relief Society healing, which is women doing a healing, which women

John Dehlin [02:37:40] used to do in the. In the 19th century. Women healed each other.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:43] They took it away, though.

John Dehlin [02:37:44] Yeah, they took it away.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:46] They.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:46] He depicted a few of the stone, his little seer stone. He has one about treasure digging.

John Dehlin [02:37:53] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:54] He has one about Oliver Cowder.

John Dehlin [02:37:55] Oh, my gosh. I need to see these. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:37:58] There's one about Emma and Joseph fighting about plural marriage. There's one about the Nauvoo Expositor destruction. There's more. But he's, like, painting.

John Dehlin [02:38:06] He's a Mormon Stories listener for sure.

Michelle Clyde [02:38:09] He's a BYU religion professor.

John Dehlin [02:38:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:38:12] But he's painting these problematic things. Cause I think he wants to show, like, look, we're being transparent now. And there's no Art that's depicting this because no one wanted to. So I'm depicting it and I'm an artist, so I find it really fascinating. I bet when I was in that class, we had an assignment, this Foundations of the Restoration class. He wasn't my teacher, but my husband took a class from him. But those images were being used in religion classes at byu. I had to do an assignment where you had to do some type of creative project that met a certain amount of hours. And so I did a painting of Joseph Smith and the other guy that was with him receiving the vision of the kingdoms of Glory. And when I look back at that painting, it's so cringe. I'll just say when I think back about it, because it's like I had my brother and my dad be the models to be Joseph Smith, and I can't remember the other guy's name, but. So, yeah, I've done one religious painting in my time, but I don't think I'll ever be doing it again.

John Dehlin [02:39:08] Or will you?

Michelle Clyde [02:39:09] Yeah. And the one last thing I'll mention about byu, it's really funny is when I was there, there was a man who was trying to commission somebody. He was looking for somebody that could do a commission for him. And I was one of the only of my classmates who does oil painting, which is more the more traditional form. And then a lot of my classmates are doing digital art at this point. So I got his contact information and he wanted me to do paintings of Book of Mormon stories, but like in baroque, like Jesus, like Carl Bloch style, because he loves that art. But he's like, but there's. I want that style in the Book of Mormon. But he specifically said, but I want to make sure they're depicted as white Nephites. Isn't that weird?

John Dehlin [02:39:55] Oh, well, it's practical.

Michelle Clyde [02:39:59] So he was trying to commission me to do paintings of Book of Mormon stories, but he specifically noted that they needed to be white. And I turned that down, like, in a flash. I was like, first of all, I'm like, I'm not painting something in someone else's style. Second of all, I don't do religious art. And third of all, that's weird to even suggest that, but.

John Dehlin [02:40:17] Well, you know, skin of blackness really makes meant fur, Right? It meant paint tattoos. That's the new apologetic.

Michelle Clyde [02:40:26] Yeah, I'm sure there's an argument for that, but yeah. Anyway, so at that time, like, I've been married, you know, one or two years. Well, in the beginning of my marriage, I'm following Dr. Julie Hanks on Instagram.

John Dehlin [02:40:41] We just had her on the podcast.

Michelle Clyde [02:40:43] Yeah, she's great. But I will say everyone's following her because they're in a precarious situation with their belief, and she has a lot of followers.

John Dehlin [02:40:52] Yeah, she's a big problem for the church because her husband's a recently released bishop. She's got the celebrity name, but she's

Michelle Clyde [02:41:01] great because she's phenomenal, allowing people to feel what they feel. And she's bringing to light these especially feminist issues that are affecting a lot of women in the church. And so she shares a book called Fair Play, which is about making sure that you're home. Feels like it's. All of the duties are equally distributed. So, like, the first year of our marriage, I read that book, and, like, we got that set.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:23] Oh, brilliant.

Michelle Clyde [02:41:24] My husband is, like, the reason why I said I was so surprised I got married young because I had high standards and he met them. That he's so, like, he's with it, and he's very tidy. You know, he cooks, he cleans. We do everything. Like, we divide it, you know.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:39] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:41:40] So I was really grateful for. Thank you, Dr. Julie Hanks.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:43] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:41:44] Making my marriage great from the very beginning.

John Dehlin [02:41:46] Nice.

Michelle Clyde [02:41:47] Love you, Julie.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:48] All the love to her.

Michelle Clyde [02:41:50] And so. But I do think, though, that, yeah, following her kind of puts you in a position where, you know that, like, you're struggling with some things that, like, things are starting to bother you.

John Dehlin [02:42:01] Yes, it's always that way. Whoever tries to stay in the church to hold down, sort of to make the tent big enough for progressives ends up becoming demonized by the leadership, not just for having a following, but for supporting kind of progressive causes, you know, and providing care.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:23] She's providing care.

Michelle Clyde [02:42:24] She's allowing people to have a space.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:26] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:42:27] Because a lot of people feel like, I don't know if I can be here anymore, because I always call it, like, friction. Like, you start feeling rubbing that just starts getting. The friction just starts to get too much. I think everybody feels a little bit of rubbing being in the church, because there's always, you know, no one's perfect, but there starts to be, like, way too much friction. And it's just like, I. You know. But she creates a space for people who feel like they're finding something in this community, but, like, they're struggling with these issues. I'm also. There's also some other pop culture things are coming out. So Rhett and Link, do you know who they are? They're YouTubers.

John Dehlin [02:43:03] Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:43:03] They share about their spiritual deconstruction from evangelical Christianity in 2020. So when I'm listening to that, I'm still thinking, well, yeah, but our church isn't like that. Right. So I'm able to listen to their deconstruction from Christianity, but still kind of have like. Well, but yeah, but we don't believe in hell the same way they do. So we, you know, it's not as bad as them because they talk about how detrimental it was for them to like think about hell as children and things like that. So I'm listening to that. I listened to a TED talk that talks about how much you change in life. Like people do not realize how much they will change, that they cannot predict that in 10 years. They think in 10 years I'll be liking the same music, I'll be doing the same thing. They think they're going to stay the same. But people change a lot. And so when I hear that talk, I'm sort of wondering in the back of my mind, I guess I need to be open minded for things in my life to change.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:06] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:44:08] Which, you know, what does that mean?

Margi Dehlin [02:44:10] A little nest. Yeah. Nesting for you as you're like before things heat up too much and the change really starts happening.

Michelle Clyde [02:44:19] Yeah. But it kind of allows me to be open minded, like maybe things will change for me because according to this research, people are changing a lot more than they expect.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:29] Right. You know, and that's the norm. Maybe change is the norm as opposed to staying the same is the norm. Which is, I think, a little bit of what we've been conditioned to think.

Michelle Clyde [02:44:40] Yeah, I bring that up because it kind of, you know, is pertinent now where I've like, you know, I'm allowing myself to change a bit.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:48] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:44:49] But the other thing I, I wrote down that like shows like, oh, I'm not alone is so I'm doing these other spiritual practices. Like I'm meditating and I'm doing my affirmations and journal writing.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:01] And is this like a daily practice that you're doing?

Michelle Clyde [02:45:03] Yeah. And then I ended up taking a BYU course about East Asian religion because I have an Asian Studies minor. And so I'm like loving Buddha, like these Buddhist principles. Like I listened to your episode about secular Buddhism or the author who wrote a book about it, Noah Rashada. Yeah, I'm loving these things about Buddhism. I'm loving kind of just like accepting impermanence and just trying to be mindful and being in the present.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:33] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:45:34] Which is actually Very different than our church. We think a lot about the next life. Right. It's all about what are we doing for later. But doing mindfulness practices, it's like now incenting yourself in now. So I'm starting to do these practices.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:52] And how long ago is this that you're doing this? You're still at BYU?

Michelle Clyde [02:45:57] Is that what you're like in 2020? I think pretty soon after I'm at mission, I'm starting to do these meditations. Like I said, I'm trying to optimize myself. Right. And people recommend doing meditation.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:08] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:46:08] It's like the science guide to having a perfect morning. Right. So I go up and I give a talk one Sunday about meta meditation, loving kindness, meditation, affirmation, which is great if you've ever tried it. It's like, where you're sending kindness to yourself, someone you struggle with, the whole world, you know, and, like, how that can really help you heal from things. And I talk about affirmations, and I'm getting flooded with texts from people after I give my talk. Tell me more about this. I want to know about this because people are feeling like I'm learning about, you know, these things about Jesus. You're supposed to be kind. You're supposed to be, you know, but, like, how do I do it? It's like there's no practical information from the church of how you actually do these things. And people are feeling it. And so I'm getting flooded with these texts about, you know, a lot of women are asking me, tell me more about the affirmations thing. Tell me more about the meditation thing. So I just go and make a post on my Relief Society page about it because people are hungry. People are hungry for that.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:09] Yeah, they're starving for tools.

Michelle Clyde [02:47:11] And I tell my bishop in, like, a interview, I'm like, yeah, I'm really loving stuff about Buddhism. And he says to me, well, don't let that take you away from the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I was like, right, okay, well, that's your opinion. But, like, you know, this works for me. I was really annoyed that he had that reaction. He didn't say, oh, I'm really glad that that is spiritually feeding you. There was none of that.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:37] Right. None of the thirteenth article of Faith.

Michelle Clyde [02:47:41] No. No attitude. So, yeah, I was definitely feeling like these other spiritual practices were feeding me a lot more.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:52] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:47:52] Than the churches.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:54] So, okay, so you're starting to be fed and you're starting to actually engage in practices that what I'm hearing is feeding you more then you're feeling more fed, you're seeing more results that you like than kind of the church. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:48:13] And keep in mind, I'm still going to church every week. I'm still reading my scriptures and praying. Like, I'm pretty much doing both, but I'm not feeling as, you know, connected to it. Connected to it, you know, So, I mean, after I graduate from byu, I finally get diagnosed with adhd, which, like, answers so many questions about my life and. And what year was that? This is in 2022.

John Dehlin [02:48:36] Two years ago.

Michelle Clyde [02:48:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:38] You were diagnosed with ADHD?

Michelle Clyde [02:48:40] Yeah. So, like, I had an inkling that that's why I was struggling with certain kinds of things.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:45] Do you want to share just for a minute, just a snippet?

John Dehlin [02:48:49] Because you saw super high performance.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:50] Yes. Of like, what was coming up and what it answered.

Michelle Clyde [02:48:55] Yeah. I didn't mention this with mtc, but, like, I cannot focus if there's like, any noises around me. So when I was in the mtc, I really struggled because I could not be away from my companions. I wanted to be in a quiet room alone.

John Dehlin [02:49:07] What if that affected your ACT score? Cause that affected you?

Michelle Clyde [02:49:10] Perhaps because I actually did. Well, when I would have courses that I chose, but then ACT score, I just struggled for me, I'd hear someone

John Dehlin [02:49:18] tapping their pencil or whatever, tapping their feet.

Michelle Clyde [02:49:20] I have to be in complete silence in order to focus. So I really struggle in MPC for that reason.

John Dehlin [02:49:26] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:49:27] I think I thrive in things that, like, I'm making, like, I'm choosing to do. And, like, I would find coping mechanisms. Like I have alarm clocks all over my house.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:36] Oh.

Michelle Clyde [02:49:37] Like one that reminds me to brush my teeth, which is like, you think only a child would need that. But, like, it's helpful for me because otherwise I don't brush my teeth. Just like, attentiveness, like, impulsive talking. Talking too much. As you can tell, I like talking.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:51] And you mentioned hyper. Hyper focus.

Michelle Clyde [02:49:52] And sometimes hyper focus, like, being a bit really intense about something to the point where, like, I would forget to eat or even, like, go to the bathroom. Like, when I was a kid, like, I would wet my pants because I, like, way older than I should have because I was so, like, into something.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:07] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:50:08] And that is really connected with ADHD that like, once it's so hard to focus, but that once you are. It's like you can't be pulled out. So, you know, getting diagnosed. And he was very much like the psychologist who, like. And you graduated college. Like, he's like, I'm so Proud of you. They did that. But I'm like, it's because I was in the arts. Like, I found my place in the arts.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:26] That's great. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:50:28] So that really helped me answer that question and just, you know, it's just really nice to start coming into myself and like, who I am.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:39] Right. And understanding your own brain probably, and

Michelle Clyde [02:50:43] understanding that, like, I actually can thrive in the ways that some people can't with different kinds of brains. But I struggle with other things.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:50] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:50:50] Other people don't and just kind of like trying to find my place.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:54] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:50:55] But my husband, he gets accepted into the military to go to medical school. And when he's gone for his military training, it's a five week training. I had just graduated and I was, you know, having an arts degree is not like where you just graduate and then you get your job. It's very much. There's a lot of unknowns. But I was so burnt out because I took 18 credits my last two semesters of college and I was so burnt out. So I just didn't want to do art. I didn't have motivation for anything. And I sort of got into a depressive episode because when I first got married, I thought, you know, maybe in two years I'll want to have kids. Like my mom, like, she waited two years and then I'm graduating and I'm like, you know, I actually don't want kids.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:44] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:51:45] I'm spending time with other people who have kids and I'm like, this isn't reflecting something that I feel like I would thrive in right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:50] Right.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] But the church taught you what?

Michelle Clyde [02:51:52] That you're supposed to have kids as young as possible and as many as possible. But I was just feeling like I don't feel like I would thrive with kids right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:01] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:52:03] And so I'm starting to feel a little bit of a quarter life crisis. Right. Because I'm like around 25. That's the quarter. Right. If you lived 100. And I'm like, well, I don't have kids yet and I don't know what job I'm supposed to get. And I was part of this mission culture where I had all these friends. And then, you know, I stopped working at New Skin. So I don't, you know, have that work anymore. And I was. Now I. And then I had college, so I had all those friends from college. And now I'm. There's nothing.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:37] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:52:37] And then my husband goes to his military training and I like have a depressive episode.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:43] Yeah. So it's almost like you had this full life, and then it. It becomes kind of a vacuum of what used to be. Including him. It sounds like he's away also.

Michelle Clyde [02:52:55] Yeah. Yeah. And he's great. So. I mean, he was my world. He still is. So it's like when he was gone, it was just like, I'm alone.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:02] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:53:02] I don't even have a job to go to. I don't even want to paint or, like, try to find some freelance jobs because I'm just so burnt out.

John Dehlin [02:53:08] That's depression.

Michelle Clyde [02:53:10] And if we didn't have a dog, I would not have left the house, probably. But we had adopted a puppy right before I graduated. And so because I had her, I had some purpose.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:20] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:53:21] I got really into training her. So when he was gone, the only reason why I probably left the house is cause she needed to go out and I needed to take care of her.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:29] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:53:30] And it was hard for my husband. Cause he's like, in Alabama, and I would FaceTime him, and I'm crying and he's just like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, you know, I don't know how I'm supposed to help you, but the reason why I mention this is because this is the environment that help. That makes me decide to become a temple worker.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:43] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:53:45] Because I'm.

John Dehlin [02:53:45] This is the key theme of the episode.

Michelle Clyde [02:53:46] This is. Yeah. Which is a long. It took us a long time to get here. But, you know, every element is important to my story, I think. I think because one, I'm. You can see from my mission, I'm trying really hard to do everything I'm supposed to. I really want to be the perfect Mormon because. And what do perfect Mormons do? They go to the temple. But I'm noticing in the beginning of my marriage with my husband is he's not really suggesting we go to the temple.

John Dehlin [02:54:11] Temple.

Michelle Clyde [02:54:12] And he's not really bringing up that we should do family prayer. And he's not bearing his testimony in church. But, you know, he's so great that, like, I can't complain about everything. And so I'm feeling so lonely and separated from so many things that I'm like, well, maybe, you know, I have challenges with the temple. Like, I don't really like it that much, but maybe if I become a temple worker, it'll help me confront those concerns.

John Dehlin [02:54:37] I have optimization.

Michelle Clyde [02:54:40] Yeah. I'm like, I'll just lean in. Instead of running away from my fears, I'm gonna face them.

John Dehlin [02:54:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:44] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:54:45] So, yeah, I Become a temple worker and such. Such an interesting thing. Like, most people would not think to do that. Oh, I don't really like the temple. Let's go five hours a week. But I also thought, if I'm a temple worker, that means I don't have to be a patron, because that means I won't have to do the downward.

John Dehlin [02:55:05] True.

Michelle Clyde [02:55:05] Because I have adhd. The endowment session. I would fall asleep every time.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:10] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:55:11] If I'm not stimulated enough, my brain shuts down.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:13] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:55:14] Like, without fail, I would fall asleep, like, every time I did an endowment. So I thought, well, if I'm a worker, really. Oh, it is not. It is common.

Becoming a Temple Worker

John Dehlin [02:55:22] I think I snored. People are falling asleep in the MTC temple.

Michelle Clyde [02:55:26] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [02:55:26] I snored and the elders all laughed at me.

Michelle Clyde [02:55:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:30] So why are you laughing, Margi? Why are you laughing?

Michelle Clyde [02:55:36] But, yeah. So I become a temple worker, and I'm just kind of like, I am really enjoying the community because there's all these women that a lot of them are, like, my mom's age or could be, like, my grandma's age, and I don't have any grandmas anymore, and my husband's grandmas had passed away while we were married. And so I'm loving these kind of aunties and grandmas that I get to talk with, and I'm really enjoying it because of that. Like, I just love chatting with these ladies. They really do feel like kind of motherly figures with me. And. And, like, the one thing that I noticed about the temple is it is women led. Like, if there were not women temple workers, it would not run for sure. Because, like, there's a lot of positions where, like, well, we used to have a man do this, but we don't have enough men, so we're gonna have the sisters do it now. Yeah. They run the temple. There would be no temple work without women being workers there.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:25] Interesting.

Michelle Clyde [02:56:25] Yeah. But I'm loving that. The sisterhood. Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:29] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:56:30] And I'm enjoying, you know, I do like doing. Performing the initiatories, because it does feel intimate. Like, I get to lay my hands on other women's head and, like, get them blessings.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:40] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [02:56:41] Which is unique, you know, for the rest of the church. Like, women don't get to do things like that.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:46] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [02:56:48] But, you know, even though I'm working at the temple and I'm trying to face my fears, like, things are still creeping up on me to, like, feel like I'm not fitting in. So I become friends with these other wives of Norda students, which is the medical school my husband goes to. And a lot of the ones that are members of the church, you know, they already have sometimes four kids. They're my age, and they're having their fourth, which is crazy to me. But I get invited by one of the girls, my ward, to hang out with them, which was so nice of her. She knows, like, well, you're not a mom, but I want you to be in school, which is so nice of her. You know, kudos to her for doing that. But I'm sitting with these women. I'm just like, I don't fit in with these women because, like, you know, I told you I read that book called Fair Play. My husband does, you know, cooking and cleaning, and it seems like chatting with them, like, their husbands don't do anything. And they're talking about how hard it is for their husbands to be in medical school. Well, not for me. I'm like, our marriage is actually doing great. And he still cooks, like, two times, like, two weekdays a week, and I do three days a week. But, like, seems like their husband doesn't do anything. And I'm just like, there's just a disconnect with their lives and mine where I'm starting to feel like I don't really feel like I fit in, you know, and at this time in my life, I'm starting to, like, differentiate a little bit. Like, I'm starting to buy the shorter garments so that I can actually finally wear shorts.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:13] Okay. A bit of a new day with that for you.

Michelle Clyde [02:58:16] Yeah. And so, you know, there's the ones, the dry silk, if you buy them petite, they ride up, so you can actually wear shorts and. And the caronessa tops. Like, you can kind of wear a wide tank top with them if it kind of goes right there. And so I'm starting to, like, allow myself to not be as strict.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:33] Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:58:34] With that, because, you know, it's hot in Utah, and I'm starting to realize, like, it's not as that big of a deal. And there's an At Last She Said it podcast episode where they talk all about garments and women's struggles with garments.

John Dehlin [02:58:48] And that's a podcast by believing members, Believing liberal progressive Mormon women.

Michelle Clyde [02:58:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:54] Called At Last She Said It. Right.

Michelle Clyde [02:58:56] And, you know, the concept is finally someone saying what we're all thinking. That's kind of their concept. And I've only listened to a few of their episodes, but I think someone shared that episode with me, and they're talking all about these issues with garbage garments for Women. And I'm listening, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I feel that.

John Dehlin [02:59:11] What are they saying? Things like, what?

Michelle Clyde [02:59:13] You know, they give people yeast infections. They're really uncomfortable. Like, I swear, even with my husband, like, all of his garments had holes in them because he was always trying to tug at him to, like, get them to be more comfortable. And he would get holes in them because he was always tugging at them. So they're like.

John Dehlin [02:59:30] They're just ugly.

Michelle Clyde [02:59:30] Yeah. They're not attractive. Like, my husband would tease me about me being in my sexy white jumpsuit because I'm very much like. I'm like, the naked neighbor. Like, I'm just very free and loose in the house or whatever. But if I ever did have my garments on, he would just tease me like, oh, there's you in your sexy jumpsuit, because it's just, like, white. Meh. You know, because it's not. It's not. It's not sexy. But, yeah. I'm listening to the episode, and they're talking about how if you're someone from a really hot climate, like, how hard it is to wear something underneath.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:02] Layers upon layers.

Michelle Clyde [03:00:03] If you have dark, darker skin, the contrast of a really white undergarment with darker skin is, like, very, like. Yeah. In your face.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:12] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [03:00:12] If you're trying to layer it with anything, just, like, the different sizes and cuts, like, there's a lot of, you know, things that people are complaining about. So there was this woman that, like, made a list of all the issues, and she went to the department who makes garments and kind of proposed all these changes. And they're kind of like, okay, well, we'll think about it, you know, but what does that mean? So, yeah, so I'm sort of trying to make it work in a new way for me at that time.

John Dehlin [03:00:43] Becoming a liberal, progressive Mormon. Yeah, exactly. Sort of. Faith matters Restore Mormon, basically.

Michelle Clyde [03:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:48] Julie Hanks Mormon.

Michelle Clyde [03:00:50] Yeah. So I thought I would share another journal entry from around this time because it kind of puts you in my mind at the time. This is. This is 2023. This is the beginning of this year. Yeah. I say last night, Nathan and I. This is my husband, kind of had some existential conversations about our feelings about religion. The question was, what do you tell your kid if they ask you if this is the one true church? It made me and him feel both stuck because I guess we're both feeling. I don't really know if we can claim that. Like, I guess that's where we're at at the time. We both feel like we have become Cafeteria Mormons. It means you take what you want and leave what you don't want. I came to an epiphany conclusion of how I feel. The fact that the Savior will take the guilt of all the wrongs and bad habits and mistakes so that we may be perfected someday is something I really hope to be true. Which is kind of sad when you think about it. I really needed that perfection doctrine because I was striving to be perfect so hard. And two, there have been many models of the Adam. They were widely accepted at the time, but just because they didn't have everything exactly right doesn't mean the Adam's existence is wrong. So I'm talking about God here. I think that with religion, we are just on a specific model that's still being refined. So at that time I'm thinking, well, I don't know if I agree with all of the doctrine about the church, but I don't know if that means that, you know, God's not real. It's just we're trying to refine that model. So you can kind of see that in my mind, I'm trying to of make it work still.

John Dehlin [03:02:21] Yeah. It's called bargaining in the stages of grief.

Michelle Clyde [03:02:26] Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. So that's kind of where my brain is. This is beginning of 2023 where I'm like, I'm working at the temple and then I mid 2023, I get called as Relief Society Presidency member. Okay. Yeah. So there's one more thing, right?

John Dehlin [03:02:49] You're getting more responsibility, more intense positions. Temple worker, Relief Study Presidency as your faith starts.

Michelle Clyde [03:02:58] Yeah. So you hear that. What I'm thinking in that about maybe we're cafeteria Mormons. And then I get called in Relief Study Presidency.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:04] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:03:05] So I feel like an imposter because I'm supposed to be a representative of like, what everybody's supposed to look up to. I'm just a secretary, but actually I was doing a of lot as a secretary. And my relief study president, she really wanted me to visit people, to get to know people in the world because there's just too many people. So I'm like doing visits and I'm feeling like. Like I feel like I have to pretend a little bit to like be this representative, you know, because I'm starting to feel like there's some things about the church, whether it's to do with women's issues or LGBT issues or, you know, I've kind of mentioned those things that I. I'm like, they're not sitting Right. With me. So I go and visit a sister, and she kind of says to me, you know, I don't identify as Mormon anymore. And I, like, suddenly feel like I can be real with her. And I'm talking with her, and I'm like, actually, I have to admit to you that I'm really nuanced right now. And, like, I almost cry in front of her, but I'm like, just this weird, sudden emotion, but I'm like, I get to be myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:05] A very real conversation.

Michelle Clyde [03:04:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:08] About where you actually are.

Michelle Clyde [03:04:10] Yeah. That I'm like, oh, I can actually be real with her. And she kind of tells me about some podcasts that she liked when she was in my place, because she was once where I was at that time. And we kind of chat a little bit, and it was just like, which podcast? There was something. The block. I don't know. It was like, I don't think it's there anymore, but there was these two queer members of the church that had a podcast that I don't think they make anymore because obviously it wasn't working for them anymore.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:37] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:04:37] And we talked about at last she said it and things like that.

John Dehlin [03:04:39] From the closet?

Michelle Clyde [03:04:41] No, it's like, on the chopping block. I don't remember.

John Dehlin [03:04:44] Okay. Was it Charlie Bird and.

Michelle Clyde [03:04:46] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [03:04:47] Okay. Okay.

Michelle Clyde [03:04:48] There was like, one. One white guy and one black guy.

John Dehlin [03:04:50] Oh, okay.

Michelle Clyde [03:04:51] I don't remember what it's called. But anyway, so we kind of chat about that, and I suddenly felt like I can be me with her.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:57] You know, you identify.

John Dehlin [03:04:59] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:05:00] And at this. Over this time, after I left the mission, like, my sister and I's relationship is getting better and better because I'm actually just letting things go. And what do you mean when you

Margi Dehlin [03:05:11] say you were letting things go?

Michelle Clyde [03:05:13] I feel that I was not. Like, in my heart, I wasn't really believing that we weren't gonna be in heaven together, I guess. But I was starting to realize that there's, like, some BS going on with

John Dehlin [03:05:25] that because, like, sad Mormon heaven.

Michelle Clyde [03:05:27] Yeah. And when I first heard you say that, you know, I didn't start listening to your podcast until this year, but I was like, that is so true. Like, sad heaven. That's what it is when you don't get to be with people you love because they don't fit the requirements. Like, I think just, like, in my heart, I just started, like, slowly kind of realizing that I didn't believe in some things.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:49] Okay.

Michelle Clyde [03:05:50] You know, and so my sister and I, our relationship is getting better. And better. But my mom and I are in a car ride to St. George together from Provo. It's about a three or four hour drive. And she brings up to me that she thinks that one of my brothers and his wife aren't going to church. And I'm like, that's news to me. I'm like, well, why did you think that? She's like, oh, because they're not blessing their baby. I'm like, oh, I didn't even realize that because it was kind of like Covid. Kind of made everybody everything feel like, oh, right, yeah, you're not really noticing things like that anymore because like it threw everything kind of into whack. And she tells me, oh, and your cousin so. And so they just told your aunt and uncle that they're not being the church anymore. And I kind of turn to my mom and I'm like, can parents just get over it? Can they just get over it when their kids leave the church?

Watching a Sister Leave and Questioning Her Own Beliefs

John Dehlin [03:06:47] Oops. Foreshadowing.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:48] How did that go?

Michelle Clyde [03:06:50] Well, she's like, because it's hard. And I'm like, why? Because you can't be in the celestial kingdom together. She's like, yes. And I'm just like, you know, it was kind of an unusual conversation for us to kind of be a little bit like up in arms, but and

Margi Dehlin [03:07:00] talking about difficult things because we don't talk about it. That's right.

Michelle Clyde [03:07:04] And I'm like sweating bullets. Cause I sweat when I'm nervous and I'm like sweating bullets talking about this with her. Because I'm just like, well, listen, I said to her mom when I was in that mindset right after my mission, like mine and my sister's relationship was terrible, but now, like, it's better than ever. And I wish I didn't waste that time trying to think she was going to come back and trying to like, be a missionary to her, you know? And I just like, I just hope. I just wished I would have gotten over it sooner because what a wasted amount of time, you know?

John Dehlin [03:07:36] And that's a message like every Mormon in the world and every member of every high demand religion and or cult needs to hear is that a religion is failing if it divides families, period. Full stop, end of story.

Michelle Clyde [03:07:49] And it just again, this obsession with the eternities.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:53] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [03:07:54] And you're neglecting your life now because you never know what's gonna happen day by day. Like, people die in accidents. Things happen. Right. The time that you have is with your family is just right now. And so it's just really sad. Like, luckily my mom, like, she just, you know, she never pushed my family members away that were, you know, leaving. She just was like, we just gotta keep doing our family things and, you know, just maybe just don't talk about it, but we gotta stay sick together. I'm grateful for that, but many parents don't. They get really intense about, like, oh, they're gonna come back someday. And like, well, I gotta, you know, every day I gotta send them a scripture just to try to convince them. Which does the exact opposite.

John Dehlin [03:08:38] Or general conference talk. Or, you know.

Michelle Clyde [03:08:40] Yeah. Which does the exact opposite.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:42] So did your mom, do you feel like from that difficult conversation that you had with her, do you feel like your mom was able to process the fear and disappointment? Because I think sometimes what happens is parents will continue the gathering, but there's a hope that through the gathering their children will come back to the church. Right. Eventually. Or sometimes there's disappointment or disapproval that still gets communicated. Even though you're choosing to like, choose your children or gather. Do you feel like she was able to kind of process some of that disappointment and fear so that when you did gather, it kind of changed the tone? Does that make sense?

Michelle Clyde [03:09:24] Yeah, I do think it's just like there's been like a domino of like, okay, well, there's the first sibling that leaves the church, and then there's another. And then there's another. I do feel like the reason why maybe it's harder for me to want to talk to her about how I've been feeling right now is because it feels like I'm the nail in the coffin because I was the child that finally did everything right. Like I mentioned that I was sort of like the difficult one to raise, but I was like the best adult child. Because there's been different points in my siblings lives where they've had challenges and then I've like, done everything right what I'm supposed to do besides maybe having the kids because my siblings have kids. I don't yet, but I. I think she's like, had to mourn the process just over time, which, you know, I kind of have. She knows that I've like, had pretty nuanced beliefs for years. So I'm wondering if it just like, won't be too much of a shock.

John Dehlin [03:10:19] But wait, you may have already said this. She doesn't know for sure the full extent.

Michelle Clyde [03:10:26] Yeah, like, I haven't told her that, like how I'm feeling right now.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:32] Right?

Michelle Clyde [03:10:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:34] So tell the world then. Your mom.

Michelle Clyde [03:10:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:36] I'm joking. Yeah, I'm teasing.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:40] Or maybe it'll be like a trickle down. That trickle down theory. It'll get to her gently.

John Dehlin [03:10:47] Or not.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:47] Or not.

John Dehlin [03:10:48] Or not. It always does.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:50] It tends to, though.

John Dehlin [03:10:51] She's gonna hear my life, like, the

Michelle Clyde [03:10:52] afternoon of, you know, we'll chat about it.

John Dehlin [03:10:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:57] Do you know when you're talking, though, something that is interesting that you're saying is all these ways that, you know, you're talking about her as, like, you were the hard one when you were younger, now you're the best adult one. It just brings to the forefront, what were you used to being judged as? Like, the labels that we carry within this system, within our family systems, within the church systems and how we're evaluated, like, what's important, what makes us a good child.

Michelle Clyde [03:11:31] And you can see in that entry, when I went to the temple, I said I didn't want to tell my mom that I didn't like it because she was so proud of me.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:36] Exactly. The approval.

Michelle Clyde [03:11:38] Yeah. She was so proud that I went to the temple. Like, how could I tell her that I was freaked out?

Margi Dehlin [03:11:42] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:11:43] You know, so there is that. I think a lot of people feel that way, but at the same time, like, when she does have to hear about it and process it, like, she's in charge of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:52] That's right.

John Dehlin [03:11:53] That's healthy.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:54] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [03:11:55] You know, I'm trying just to take it easy with, like, bringing up. I don't want to bring it up all at once, but, like, of course, if she hears about this episode, she'll know about it and we'll have to talk about it. Just because, you know, I want. There is a moment where you're like, I want to protect her because I love her, but at the end of the day, like, she has to process that on her own.

John Dehlin [03:12:15] It's not a kid's job to protect

Margi Dehlin [03:12:16] their parent or take care of their parent.

Michelle Clyde [03:12:18] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:20] In. In this way, in this emotional kind of way. And it will allow her to fully see you and know you for who you are.

Michelle Clyde [03:12:29] Really? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:31] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:12:32] And at the end of 2023, you know, the war in Palestine's happening, and I'm starting to feel like it is really hard to, like, pay tithing while I'm watching this going on, because it feels like I'm giving money. Like, I sort of knew in the back of my head that the church has tons of money because there's like, you know, there's been things in the news about it for years. So you kind of know that back your head, even if you don't really look into it as a member. And I'm just kind of thinking, you know, it's really hard to pay tithing right now because I just feel that my money could be given to some better causes. But I'm still paying even though I'm feeling that way.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:07] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:13:07] That's at the end of 2023, and my husband and I go visit his parents in Hawaii. They're living in Hawaii right now. And we meet up with one of my mission companions that has been out of the church for a while now. And she's that mission companion that like inspired me to be super obedient. And when she, when I noticed she was leaving the church, this is even around when I was getting married, like, I noticed that she had like a strapless wedding dress. But then she got married in like a different temple dress in the temple. It was so interesting. I was like, oh, you know, this is crazy because I looked up to her so much and now she's leaving. But in the end, it actually has been really great because now we're tight and we can talk. So she's from Hawaii, so we see her in Hawaii while we're visiting my husband's parents. And this is like the first time I've told anyone out loud that, like, I am struggling to make this work. You know, I've been working at the temple for a while now.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:11] And you've been in the Relief Society presidency.

Michelle Clyde [03:14:14] Yeah, I'm in the Relief Society presidency now.

John Dehlin [03:14:16] Turned missionary. Temple married.

Michelle Clyde [03:14:18] Return Missionary. Temple married. And I'm like doing everything, but it's like, it's just, you know, there's that intuition that it's like things aren't working. So we go on a hike with her and we finally like say how I'm feeling and how I'm like, I'm just trying to survive because I'm in Utah. Like, I have to be a member to survive here. And so I just cannot visualize myself doing anything different because it's what I have to do.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:41] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:14:42] Which is such a horrible state to be in.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:46] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:14:47] That's how I was feeling. Like I just have to survive because, like, it sort of feels like a surveillance state here. Like everybody's, I did it. Everyone's making sure. Are you wearing your garments right? Are you doing what you're supposed to? Oh, that neighbor. I haven't seen them at church lately. Like my sister in law, the one that my mom was like, oh, they haven't blessed their baby like her. You know, her neighborhood. They're the odd ones out.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:10] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:15:10] She's living in Utah county as well. And it's difficult. It's difficult living here. So when I was talking to my mission companion, I was like, I'm in a state of survival because I have to play the part. I have to play the part that I'm supposed to play, because otherwise, what am I supposed to do?

John Dehlin [03:15:27] And I'll just add, I just finished a book called the Status Game, which is a really important book for me. And we're all consciously or unconsciously craving status. And I don't mean like. Like fame or. I just mean like, we want to look good in other people's eyes. And you don't want to become a disappointment to your parents. You don't want to lose friends and community. And that's also what you're facing is like being downgraded in status and respect in the eyes of family and friends and peers. Right?

Michelle Clyde [03:16:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:02] Is that right? I don't want to project that onto you.

Michelle Clyde [03:16:04] Yeah. I mean, it's just, like, you do feel like you need to perform for the people around you. Watching for worth.

John Dehlin [03:16:11] Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:12] Worth.

Michelle Clyde [03:16:12] For your worth. And I think I forgot to mention the. The. The Relief Society firestorm situation. Was that this year that. That happened?

John Dehlin [03:16:22] 2024? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:24] It was just a few months ago. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:16:26] So I'm. I'll talk about that in a bit. The last thing I'll say about being in Hawaii is I hadn't been to the temple as a patron, like, since I started working. So I started in November of 2022.

John Dehlin [03:16:38] Oh, that's not part of it. You can be a temple worker and never actually go through as a patron.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:42] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:16:42] I mean, you just. So as a temple worker, what I did is I. You kind of have greeting positions where you kind of tell people where to go. You're performing the ordinances. There's coordinator positions. So I actually. This water ball brought today. I actually got this. You can see it has the temple on it. When I was one of the initiatory coordinators, we were at this desk, and so we wanted to have water bottles with us. So my fellow coordinator, she got me the sticker. So this is like my little temple water bottle. So I did a coordinating position at the initiatory desk, and then I got called as a coordinator for the endowment sessions, which is like, you kind of guide all the groups in and out of the rooms and bring people up to elevators and count the numbers of how many people are there and things like that. But so I hadn't been a patron all the time that I being a temple worker, because it's kind of my excuse to not have to be a patron.

John Dehlin [03:17:32] You become a temple worker so you don't have to go to the temple.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:34] So Understandable.

Michelle Clyde [03:17:35] Because it's like, look me, I'm so righteous, I'm a temple worker. But it's like, then I don't have to go through the endowment session myself.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:42] Right. Which you were saying was really difficult to pay attention to. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:17:46] And they have one worker who sits in there, one female worker that sits in there just to kind of make sure that if there's any emergencies to help the patrons. And I think I did it twice and. Or maybe three times. I remember. But like, I would fall asleep even as the coordinator.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:01] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:18:02] And like, how embarrassing. You know, I'm sitting in front falling asleep. So yeah, I'm just like. So I actually was like, if they ask me to do that again, I'm gonna say, no, thank you. Because it's really hard for me to sit through this. So we're in Hawaii with his. With my husband's family and we go through the temple and he. We get out of the temple and my husband looks to me, he's like, I don't want to ever do that again. Which is like, you know, a moment of honesty. But I said to him, then you don't have to. Then you don't have to do that again. Because I was already opening my mind that things can be different.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:39] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:18:40] You know, and I was like, heck, I'm a temple worker and I don't even like the temple.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:45] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:18:46] There were some things I liked about it.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:47] And initially you thought, I think, or were at least trying, if I go, then maybe I will like it. Yes, maybe by. And what I'm hearing is that was not happening for you.

Michelle Clyde [03:18:59] Yeah. Well, it's like if you go more. That's what my cousin told me when I went to the temple for the first time. If you go more, it'll be better. Well, I was to. Going. Going for five hours a week wasn't making it better. It wasn't making it better. And there's this moment where we had a training about. So you have a 30 minute training meeting before this. Your group starts and takes over. And we had a training meeting about the prayer circle. And I'm just like feeling sick to my stomach because I just do not like the prayer circle. Like, it just feels culty to me. Right. That's what I wrote in my Journal. I might not have said that out loud even recently, but since reading out my journal, that's what I felt.

John Dehlin [03:19:35] When you were 19?

Michelle Clyde [03:19:36] Yes. And so I'm, like, feeling sick to my stomach, and I go to. I think this may be like, even, like, a year in, year and a half in being a temple worker. I tell my coordinator that, like, I'm struggling with this, and I'm, like, in tears, and I'm just like, I thought that I would feel better about this, but I don't. I just really. The prayer circle. I just really, really struggle to understand it. And she was very sweet and hugged me, but her answer is very much just like, well, there's a lot of things we don't understand, but we just work through it, you know, what is that? That isn't comfort at all.

John Dehlin [03:20:09] Obedience culture.

Michelle Clyde [03:20:10] Yeah. It's like, well, we don't understand why we do that. But, you know, you can overcome it if, you know. But it's just. There's no answers, right?

John Dehlin [03:20:21] No.

Michelle Clyde [03:20:21] So.

John Dehlin [03:20:22] Well, the answer is double down and.

Michelle Clyde [03:20:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:24] Hey, pray and obey. Right?

Michelle Clyde [03:20:26] So, you know, my husband tells me that, and I'm like, okay, so he's feeling that way, and I'm like, all right, well, you don't have to. So, you know, we come into the new year, and we're getting in the car one day, and when you connect your phone to the car, it'll automatically start playing what you were listening to on Spotify. And I see a Mormon Stories episode that says, bishop, Bishop resigns from the pulpit, which I'm sure that was a very popular episode.

John Dehlin [03:20:57] Yeah, very popular. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:20:58] So there was a bishop. Was it the end of 2023 that he resigned?

John Dehlin [03:21:03] I can look it up, but it's pretty recent. Past year. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:21:06] Yeah. So I see he's listening, and my husband is a little bit like, oh, no. What is she gonna think that I'm listening to this? But there's, like, a state, like, you can tell I'm not being true to myself, because he thinks I'm worried. You know, he's worried that I'm seeing him listening to Mormon Stories. But I go inside, you know, and I listen to it, too, and I'm hearing it, and I'm like, there's some valid things being said in this. I'd never. Maybe I'd heard of Mormon Stories, but not really. Like, I'd never really heard of it. So when you're not in this realm, like, you don't know anything about it.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:42] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:21:42] When you're in the bubble.

Michelle Clyde [03:21:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:21:44] You're in the bubble.

Michelle Clyde [03:21:44] When you're in the bubble, you don't know that all these podcasts and things exist. Like, I was listening to the faithful, nuanced podcasts. Right. But not.

John Dehlin [03:21:53] What's crazy is I'm in my 19th year.

Michelle Clyde [03:21:56] Didn't you start as a apologetic?

John Dehlin [03:21:58] Oh, of course. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. 10 years I was in the church and progressive and liberal and all that.

Michelle Clyde [03:22:05] Yeah, yeah. So I listened to it and I'm like, you know, there's some valid points being made. And my husband, he studied nutritional science for his undergrad. And being a nutrition, you realize there's a lot of things that people absolutely believe that are totally false in nutrition. So he's like, you know, a very logically brain person. And for him, it's like, not even weird to see that something that a lot of people believe could be absolutely wrong because that is, like, all of, you know, nutrition. There's so much misinformation. Nutrition. So he's very much in that brain of, like, very logical. And he's like, since told me, like, oh, even on my mission, I started thinking, are you telling me that all these people that I'm meeting are wrong and we're right? Like, he was even on his mission starting to feel like something's not adding up here because we couldn't be like, all these other people in the entire world, like, billions of people, like, are wrong and suddenly. And like, we're right, right, right.

John Dehlin [03:23:04] This little tribe in Utah.

Michelle Clyde [03:23:06] But, like, and we, you know, he. And we kind of had these conversations over the years of our marriage where it's like, it's obvious that we're more, like, liberal or have different ideas. But, like, he'd never truly confessed to me, like, what he was really feeling over all this time. And so, you know, we're having. We're having conversations really quickly.

John Dehlin [03:23:26] I think it'd be worth it. Even though you've kind of already passed it. Can you just list all the social media things you've got, like Tara Westover and the Black Menaces and Johnny Barris, like, because, I mean, in the Internet age, in 2024, how are. How are devout Mormons not coming upon all the different social media assets that are going to be causing cracks? Right.

Exposure to Church History and Faith Crisis

Michelle Clyde [03:23:52] Well, if you live in Utah, TikTok algorithms, they know you live here, and so they will give you content that's like some would call anti Mormon. Right. And I was starting to see that kind of stuff because, you know, the algorithm. And so I think I saw a video of A woman talking about how all religions are so male centered. Like, Jesus is a man, God is a man, Buddha's a man. And I'm. And I'm just like, yeah, I'm like, why are we just worshiping men? Like, the leaders are men. Everything's men. And like I said, I'm looking around. The temple was run by women. You know, every moment of my childhood, magic was created by women. In the Relief Society presidency, I'm like seeing this disparity where it's like the release of the presidency, like we're running the whole world, the whole ward. Like, I am the secretary, so I'm putting in attendance and things. I'm seeing that 75% of the ministering interviews are done by the really study presidency, but only 30% of them are done by, like, you can see the women are doing a lot more. So the elders quorum was only doing 30%. And then, you know, so I'm seeing like, the women are doing a lot more here. And yet, you know, it's all about men. So I'm like seeing this content on my TikTok page. I started reading Educated because I think somebody shared about it. And so I'm reading Educated.

John Dehlin [03:25:07] We had our Mormon stories before she got big. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:25:10] And she talks about how when she was at byu that some guy mentioned to her, like, about. About something about polygamy, like, oh, we'll all come to accept, like, about it someday. And she said something like, well, I don't, I don't believe it. And I'm listening to him like, you know, I think I kind of agree with her. I think I kind of agree with her that polygamy doesn't make sense. And it's gross and creepy and weird. And I see Johnny Harris's videos on YouTube and he has left the church and he does like, kind of investigative journalism type of stuff sometimes. And he made a video about why he left the church, and he made a video, like, about what Mormons believe. And he makes a comment about Joseph Smith just wanting to have a lot of women. That's probably why he did it. And I'm like, that's a good point.

John Dehlin [03:25:55] All of a sudden it makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:56] You're like, hey.

Michelle Clyde [03:25:59] And when the black menaces are doing their posts, I can't remember if I was still at byu, but I was eating up that content. It was so funny to me. But at the same time I was like, I don't really relate to it. I still. So they've got to interview some H Vac people because, again, like, the arts group, like, we're not like the rest of them, but. Yeah. There's just a lot of content that's, you know, pumping in, and it's like, you can't really avoid it. And even if you're not seeking it out, it comes to you. Which. It makes sense why parents and general authorities try to demonize social media, because that's where ideas get spread. But, you know, when. Once I started listening to Mormon stories, it's like, it's just facts. You know, I started thinking, these are

John Dehlin [03:26:41] just facts anti Mormonism. Turns out it's just history.

Michelle Clyde [03:26:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:45] And science.

Michelle Clyde [03:26:45] Yeah. And also people's stories. The interesting thing is, like. Like I said, my husband's very logical brain, so he was looking for, like, truth claim stuff immediately once he started listening. For me, like, I'm very more emotional, so it has nothing to do with the historical church. It's the NOW church. So it was bothering me.

John Dehlin [03:27:03] Yeah, that's. That's typical.

Michelle Clyde [03:27:05] Yeah. I mean, some people, it really is. The history is really bothering them. For me, when I started learning about historical things that were, like, problematic, I wasn't even surprised. I was like, yeah, yeah, that kind of makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:15] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:27:15] Of course that happened. Oh, yeah, of course. But it wasn't the. Like, it wasn't the thing that really made me feel like, oh, I need to.

John Dehlin [03:27:24] So for you, it was the injustice.

Michelle Clyde [03:27:26] Yeah. It was just, you know, there. There's problems with how women are treated in the church. There's problems with how the LGBT thing is being handled in the church. And it was like, how the modern church. And then my husband, in the beginning of this year or maybe around March,

John Dehlin [03:27:39] he says, by the way, the bishop's interview. The bishop presiding over the pulpit. That was in February of this year.

Michelle Clyde [03:27:46] Oh, that was this year. Okay. So, yeah, it was this year that that happened.

John Dehlin [03:27:49] And then the firestorm was pretty soon.

Michelle Clyde [03:27:50] Yeah. And so my husband says to me, like, how do you feel about not paying tithing? He had no idea how I was gonna react to that. But like I said, now his parents

John Dehlin [03:28:03] can't get mad at you because he's leading you.

Michelle Clyde [03:28:05] Yeah. I'm not the one. Okay. He started it.

John Dehlin [03:28:11] Michelle's off the hook in laws.

Margi Dehlin [03:28:13] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:28:13] Because, you know, he gave me permission to feel what I was feeling, because now I know he's feeling the same way. He gave me permission. So he says that. And the end of 2023, I'm already feeling like. I feel like I need to give my money to something better. So I Say, well, what about the humanitarian fund? He's like, well, turns out the church's humanitarian fund, we don't even know where it's going, so we can't even be sure. So I'm like, okay. So immediately after that conversation, I go find a bunch of things to donate to people in Palestine, and I donate and I feel amazing. I never felt that way when I gave tithing, but I'm giving money to people who really need it. And I start having this kind of mantra, I guess, or just policy with myself that if I see a GoFundMe page, even if I don't know who the heck it is, oh, my mom, you know, my cousin has cancer. Please help. So and so has medical bills. I donate. It doesn't matter who it is. Like, I donate to it now.

Margi Dehlin [03:29:10] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:29:10] And like, how empowering that feels to be, like, I'm literally putting money in the hands directly of the need and it's not, you know, through, like. Yeah, you could say, of course the church does a lot of good things with its money, but right when the Palestine war was happening, Israel, Palestine war was happening. The church bought the temple land or whatever from the community of Christ. And I'm just sitting there thinking, this doesn't make sense. There should be a big announcement how much money they're giving to aid, not that they're buying this land, you know, so it just, like, it doesn't. It doesn't feel. It doesn't feel right.

John Dehlin [03:29:47] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:29:48] So that happens. And we're like, okay, we're gonna stop fang tithing. I mistakenly send a black menaces video to my father in law because it has to do with BYU Hawaii. I thought for some reason in my head that, like, oh, he just might want to know it's relevant. But he was really upset. He was really upset. And he said something to me that, like, social media radicalizes young women and that I need to not use TikTok anymore. And I love my in laws. They're actually really wonderful people. But people you love can still disappoint you. Yeah, that was disappointing. He really got after me, and I was like, whoa. I was not expecting the reaction he had.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:26] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:30:27] So it's. I'll go through this really quick so we can get to my temple experiences. But my in laws kind of noticed that my husband, like, doesn't give a very good testimony during our sudden testimony meeting over an Easter FaceTime call.

John Dehlin [03:30:42] Oh, like a spontaneous family. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:30:45] If we were prepared, we might probably could have thrown something together. Right. Just like, I believe that Jesus Christ will heal us all. You know, we could have something, but it was so sudden. Nathan, do you want to share a testimony? He's just like. Like, he doesn't really know what to do.

John Dehlin [03:30:58] Imagine doing a zoom call with your parents, and they want you to bear your testimony. Like, to check in.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:03] No.

John Dehlin [03:31:03] Like, that's a modern.

Michelle Clyde [03:31:05] So we had all. We had all the family, like, on the Zoom call, because we kind of. All his family all live in different states. And so right after that Zoom call, we get a phone call, and my husband's mom says, are you having a faith crisis? He's like, busted. It was the most. I was overhearing the phone calls. The most disappointing phone call I've ever heard. Very much not. Not listening to him. Him and just trying to. Trying to lecture, you know? So that was disappointing. And that, weirdly, I feel like that brought my husband and I together a lot. It was kind of like, it's you and me together, babe. Like. Like, we are going to. Like, we have our family together, and we're going to create what we want together, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:31:47] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [03:31:48] So when I was hearing him talking to his parents, they're talking about, oh, well, I could tell in your countenance that your countenance is dark or something. I'm like, probably because he was awkwardly embarrassed not saying, like, he is doing

John Dehlin [03:31:59] better than ever, but sad to disappoint them too.

Michelle Clyde [03:32:02] Yeah, yeah. But he's doing, like, doing great in school. I feel like our marriage is doing better than ever. Probably because my perfectionism was going away. So that means my perfectionism for my marriage is going away.

John Dehlin [03:32:16] Your garments are going away.

Michelle Clyde [03:32:19] Well, he tells me he's gonna stop wearing garments.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:21] Perfectionism and your garments.

Michelle Clyde [03:32:23] He's here. He sort of stopped wearing garments first. And I'm a little bit like, oh, okay, you're doing that. And I'm still wearing them at the time. But it's because, you know, if you're expecting yourself to be perfect, like, you expect your spouse perfect, and that creates conflict because no one's perfect. And people just have personality differences that aren't, you know.

John Dehlin [03:32:40] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:32:41] You know exactly what you want to be. But I feel like our marriage is doing better than ever. Like, actually, you say his countenance is dark, but I think his. He. He has a sense of relief about his body. It feels brighter than ever from my point of view. So.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:56] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:32:56] Yeah. Because I do feel like that change. It's like, oh, there's this stress is kind of going away. I don't need to be the perfect Mormon anymore. But I'm still a temple worker. I'm still working at the temple.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:13] Right?

Michelle Clyde [03:33:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:14] You also mentioned you found LDS discussions at this point.

Michelle Clyde [03:33:17] Yeah. So I have an interesting journal entry to read because I just listened to the episode. So I was only really listening to Mormon stories that were about people's stories because I just loved hearing how people felt as they were going through different times in their life. But I still hadn't listened to a truth claims episode. So I finally listened to the one about the Masonic symbolism and its connection to the temple because I was like, well, I'm a temple worker. I feel like I probably know this. We didn't get that training when we became teleworkers.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:46] I'll just tell you that that wasn't included.

Michelle Clyde [03:33:49] Oh, everything's the same. The signs are the same, the clothing's the same. You know, it's like, whoa.

Margi Dehlin [03:33:56] We weren't.

Michelle Clyde [03:33:56] We weren't told that information. So let me see.

John Dehlin [03:34:00] New journal. Show them the new journal.

Michelle Clyde [03:34:02] New journal.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:03] I.

Michelle Clyde [03:34:03] You know, I'm a. I'm a good Mormon girl. I'm journaling pretty frequently. But

John Dehlin [03:34:10] now, to the church's chagrin, they're gonna start discouraging people from keeping journals.

Michelle Clyde [03:34:13] Yeah, no more journaling. Cause then you'll know how you really feel. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:20] Okay.

Michelle Clyde [03:34:21] So it says Yesterday, this was May 5th of this year. Yesterday, I was listening to a Mormon stories podcast. And then I had to go get ready for my TEFL shift. I had this feeling of dread. How much longer can I do this? This. Because I feel a main reason for. Is for performing spirituality for my in laws. Sorry, but yeah, I need to perform that. I was still being good.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:46] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [03:34:47] I was thinking about what excuse I could use to quit being a temple worker. When I was in my meeting, one of the assistants to the matron. So there's a temple president and temple matron, which is the wife of the temple president, and then she has assistants. One of the assistants to the matron said that we aren't supposed to tell people what the ceremonial clothing ma means. We are just supposed to tell them to pray about it. So if a patron comes to you and asks what the ceremony clothing means, we just have to tell them to pray about it. I recently watched a video that showed how the endowment ceremony comes from Freemasonry down to the clothes, the robes, the hats, the aprons, the tokens, the signs, and the language.

John Dehlin [03:35:27] So I forget the penalties. But you didn't.

Michelle Clyde [03:35:28] Penalties. But I didn't ever experience that at my Age. So in the best the church hats is pray about it. It's because they can't explain that it was not inspired by God. The only answers are pray and read your Scriptures. Then you'll know that there are conversations that are being avoided. So I came to the realization that Nathan's rotations will make our life hectic. So I'm going to stop in July. So he's starting his hospital rotations for medical school. And I thought, that's finally I have an excuse. Excuse to be done. So, you know, that was kind of like finally having an excuse to quit. But there are some other things that are happening at the temple that, like, throughout. So I served at the temple for two years. There are some things that, like, were just not sitting right with me. One was that, like, I noticed that most of the patrons just want to go to the Celestial Room. I want you to guess why that is.

Disillusionment with Temple Work and Quiet Resignation

John Dehlin [03:36:24] It's the only part that's enjoyable.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:26] It's peaceful. I mean, I feel like it's the most quiet, contemplative space.

John Dehlin [03:36:32] There's no culty ritual there. I don't know.

Michelle Clyde [03:36:34] Yeah, I mean, when you go into a cathedral, it's like you feel that similar feeling when it's like, oh, the grand ceilings and the peace that fills in that kind of quiet space. So we had a meeting, and one of our coordinators was telling us, oh, you need to make sure they do an ordinance. They can't just come to the temple just to go to the Celestial Room, I'm thinking, but that's where they want to go, because that's where they feel peace. Like, if they were to improve the temple, they would have a separate room that if you didn't feel like doing an ordinance, that you could just, like, get there just to feel peace.

John Dehlin [03:37:06] Someday. They're gonna do that for sure.

Michelle Clyde [03:37:07] I bet.

John Dehlin [03:37:08] I even remember matrons, like, hurrying you out if you stayed too long in the celestial world.

Michelle Clyde [03:37:13] Oh, really?

Margi Dehlin [03:37:13] Yeah, that. Me too.

John Dehlin [03:37:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:15] The couple times I went, I will

Michelle Clyde [03:37:17] say, like, they try to be really sensitive these days to try to, like, not hurt people's feelings in the temple. Like, they try really hard to, like, be sensitive to things. But, yeah, I'm just like, well, that's where people want to go. They want to go the Celestial Room. But it's like, no, but they have to do an ordinance. And one day when I was at the temple, a woman came up to me and says that I knew from. Like, I grew up across the street from her. And she says to me, isn't it so interesting how different paths you and your sister are on. And I say to her, well, like, I don't blame her.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:52] Oh.

Michelle Clyde [03:37:54] Because at that time, I'm already feeling, like, a little bit disenchanted with things. But that kind of rubbed me the wrong way because it's like, oh, I'm noticing that your sister is the wayward one and you are the good one. Another thing that happened is.

John Dehlin [03:38:09] And that made you feel what?

Michelle Clyde [03:38:12] I don't know. It just, like, gross like, that she was, like, keeping her eye on us. That's why I said that. The surveillance state.

John Dehlin [03:38:19] But that's former. You too, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:38:21] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:38:21] And I was doing it, too. Like, I was, oh, they're not wearing their garments. Oh, they're wearing a spaghetti strap. You know, Another thing that happened was that there was this woman who's a temple worker who only had the use of her left arm. And one day they said that she couldn't do the initiatives anymore because. Because you have to do it with your right hand. So she has a disabled right hand, and so she couldn't do it anymore. I just felt so gross about that.

Margi Dehlin [03:38:48] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:38:49] And I said to, like, I think I was the initiatory coordinator, assistant at the time. I said to the other lady, I'm like, well, you know, when patrons come, we actually have training if people don't have uses of arms, like, how to accommodate them and if people have wheelchairs, like, there's a lot of accommodations for disabilities. But I'm like, like, the. Why does it matter? For her, it's like, well, because it's the ordinance. And I said, well, sometimes people don't say everything correctly, but not. We oftentimes will just move it along so that we don't, like, cause a ruckus. So if that doesn't matter, why does it ever matter? Because that happens a lot in the temple where, like, somebody might say something incorrectly. Instead of constantly nagging them to say it correctly, we'll just say, oh, well, let's just move on. Because we don't want to make them feel bad.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:30] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:39:31] But I'm like, but if it doesn't matter, then why does it ever matter?

Margi Dehlin [03:39:33] Matter, Right. Consistency. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:39:36] I just can't believe they're telling a woman missing an arm that if she uses the other arm, that she can't do it.

Michelle Clyde [03:39:42] And she'd already been doing it, so that's the thing she'd been doing it for.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:46] So taking it away.

Michelle Clyde [03:39:47] Taking away. Yeah. So it's like. But those ones are invalidated. She'd been doing all those for all that time, but those ones are okay, but the ones moving forward aren't okay now.

John Dehlin [03:39:56] It's so weird.

Michelle Clyde [03:39:57] So it's like there's rules, but, like, they don't matter until they do. And so I'm starting to see that pattern. And also, I just, like, felt terribly for this woman because she's such a nice lady, but she has a disabled right arm, and so now she can't do it.

Margi Dehlin [03:40:08] That's terrible.

Michelle Clyde [03:40:09] And then I'm just kind of seeing that in the temple. I'm like, it doesn't matter, but it does. Just that inconsistency was just felt wrong to me. And there was a lot of changes, even in two years when I was at the temple. So when we were emailing back and forth, we talked about how there's just been a recent new change to the temple endowment, that it's now only an hour long. I think years ago, it's probably even two hours long for sure. And then they shortened it to an hour, maybe 40 minutes. And then they tried to shorten it a little bit more. And I think the reason is because they, like patrons, don't want to do it if it takes that much time out of their day, you know?

John Dehlin [03:40:44] Yeah. Temple attendance was dropping.

Michelle Clyde [03:40:46] Yeah. And I was an endowment room coordinator. That means I knew all the numbers who were coming in to do endowments. We would keep track of it just to let, like, you know, inform the temple. I think it's just, I don't know, counting. It's funny, they keep track of numbers even attending church.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:00] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:41:01] But we'd write down the numbers, and there was never a time where there was more men attending than women. It was always more women attending.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:09] Interesting. Yes.

Michelle Clyde [03:41:11] So let's say, you know, in the session, we would. We would count how many men there were and count how many women there are. Like, sometimes there'd be so much women that we'd have to sit them on the men's side. So they split it for men and women. Women and women can't sit next in the temple.

Margi Dehlin [03:41:23] Yeah. Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:41:24] And there'd be so much women. And so, you know, these women have. If they're following the church, they're gonna have a bunch of kids. And, you know, it takes time out of their day to come to like a three hour temple thing. But, yeah, they're. They're changing things all the time. Even when I was there. And like these older ladies that were temple workers, like, they're constantly like, oh, there's so many things and it's like hard for them to change because they're these older ladies that like have been working the temple for years and. Yeah, it's like hard for them to have to memorize things differently. And now.

John Dehlin [03:41:53] And do you remember when they got rid of the movies?

Michelle Clyde [03:41:56] Yeah. I've since learned why that is.

John Dehlin [03:42:00] It's because the newest version. Do you want to say it?

Michelle Clyde [03:42:02] No, you say it.

John Dehlin [03:42:03] The newest, when they redid the movies for like the third or fourth time, they unfortunately picked a known pedophile to be the director. Richard. Is it Ben Wagner? Sterling Van Wagner, I think is his name. And he produced the most recent versions of the videos. And then one of his victims came out in the New York Times and said, you know that guy you picked, that award winning, Academy Award winning director that you picked to direct the latest versions of the temple? He sexually abused be. And the church knew about it, right?

Michelle Clyde [03:42:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:40] And hid it and covered it up.

Michelle Clyde [03:42:41] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [03:42:42] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:42:42] But I also thought the reason why they did it is so that they can make changes better because they're making so many changes that if they just do so. They used to have videos, now it's like little slideshows. They can do a voiceover a lot quicker.

John Dehlin [03:42:55] Well, no, it's also because many of the actors end up leaving the church, so. These actors? Oh yeah, for sure. Like, you know, Satan or Adam.

Michelle Clyde [03:43:03] Well, if Satan leaves a church, that's

Margi Dehlin [03:43:04] okay, then at least it makes sense.

Michelle Clyde [03:43:07] Yeah, I mean, no, but that's true.

John Dehlin [03:43:09] Or they come out as gay. Like so many of the actors acted in the temple videos end up coming out as gay or leaving the church. That it. The church just can't keep remaking the videos fast enough.

Michelle Clyde [03:43:22] Yeah, I mean, it was definitely felt like it's like every week there was something different. And even if it wasn't to the ordinances and it was like we're always doing things a different way. So it was definitely kind of like, whoa, what of a whirlwind. And that's only like the past, I

John Dehlin [03:43:35] would say five to 10 years because of social media. Social media kept raising issues and embarrassing the church. And so they. Once they started making changes, the floodgates opened.

Michelle Clyde [03:43:46] Yeah. The other thing that happened was so since I met my husband and he spoke Korean on his mission, I've started learning Korean and then also a little bit of Japanese as well. So when I was working at the initiatory desk, I started. We've suddenly got a flood of names in those languages. So I was starting to write out the pronunciations of how to pronounce them better because people were really struggling on how to pronounce these names. And I remember just feeling like, oh, I feel so good that I can do this, because I'm spending all this time studying these languages, and I can help people with it. And all these workers and patrons were telling me, thank you so much for doing this. That really helped me. And so I'm transcribing. Just, like, in the off time when there's not a patron that needs help, I'm writing out how to pronounce these names. And not only that, but when a patron comes and they speak, and, like, their family names are Korean and they're Korean, when you say their names right, they feel really good.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:38] Absolutely.

Michelle Clyde [03:44:39] And so I felt amazing, like, I'm helping these people. And then in comes along one of the matron's assistants, and she tells me, like, you need to stop doing. There's no reason. Right. She can't really give a reason. Oh, they just don't want you to. But I'm like, I'm helping these people. And I felt so good about it. I literally even felt like God gave me that purpose. Right. So that I could help these people. And then she tells me, oh, well, you can't do that anymore, and there's not really a good reason for it, but we just don't want you to. And I was, like, in tears to some of the other sisters because I really did feel totally crushed by that. And so that's another example of, like, I felt like I was doing something, and it was like, nope, that's right. You're not doing it the right way.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:20] That's right. You're having an experience, and it's positive. And someone comes in and can't tell you why, and it's like, no, not for you. Stop it.

John Dehlin [03:45:28] Which then makes you question inspiration. Like, is the epistemology of, like, feeling good emotions. Is that the Holy Ghost? If this woman can feel inspired to tell you something's wrong based on her feelings, when your feelings are telling you it's inspired, then can you trust feelings as the arbiters of truth?

Michelle Clyde [03:45:50] So I find myself, like, I'm. That brings me back to being like, okay, I found an excuse to leave. My husband's starting his rotations. Now I have an excuse to leave.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:00] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:46:00] So I decide, okay, in June. So it's August right now. This is how close this is. Yeah, June.

John Dehlin [03:46:06] That's two months ago.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:08] It's amazing, really.

Michelle Clyde [03:46:11] And my last day working at the temple One of the shift coordinators in our little coordinators meeting, because. Right. I'm in the endowment room, one of the endowment room coordinators, she tells all this coordinator, she's like, I feel inspired to tell all of the workers that we need to focus our conversations on the temple or the gospel and that we shouldn't be chatting. And immediately, like, I felt. Because that's why I. That's why I started at the temple.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:39] Exactly.

Michelle Clyde [03:46:40] Is because I wanted community and I didn't want to feel lonely. And I was finding, like, I was loving talking to these ladies. And so I immediately feel like, you know, leaving the temple is right. It's the right decision, because that's not the type of situation I want to be in if I can't, like, find community with these people.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:59] And when you tell her you feel inspired, what does she say?

Michelle Clyde [03:47:04] Well, I come out of the meeting and there's my other coordinator that we do the endowment room together. And I tell her, that was really hard for me to hear that because I really enjoy connecting with all of you. And she said, oh, that's really hard for me to hear as well. And I tell her, I constantly have been feeling like the church has been telling me to ignore my intuition. And she says to me, what if it's not your intuition? What if it's that it's Satan, it's the adversary. And I was about to say my piece, but then a patron comes and I couldn't finish.

John Dehlin [03:47:39] But that's a recurring theme in your story, all of our stories.

Michelle Clyde [03:47:43] Ignore your intuition that if something doesn't feel right. And at that moment I thought, satan really does his work at the temple. Then isn't this the one place where he's supposed to not have any work on us? Right. Yeah, but that's where I felt like the yuckiest. Right. Was at the temple. And I'm like, wow, he must be really good at getting people in the

John Dehlin [03:48:04] temple, because who's living the gospel more than you?

Michelle Clyde [03:48:07] I mean, I was trying to do everything. Of course, maybe I was watching too much media that was, you know, giving me ideas or something.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:14] And I'm going to say, too, it's not just ignoring your intuition, it's ignoring your experience, too. Like, you have validated experiences going on with either valuing community, talking with the older ladies. Right?

Michelle Clyde [03:48:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:29] You had a valid experience when you were reading those, the set of books that were helping you understand the. It's so it's intuition and your own experience. Don't trust your experience either. Yeah. Which is just deeply problematic.

Michelle Clyde [03:48:43] And also, like, if I'm listening to these, you know, different social media sources or whatever that are leading me away, I'm connecting with them, like, in a deep level. Right. It's not like I'm hearing that stuff and. Oh, that's bad. I gotta. It's like, no, I'm connecting with it and it's. There's a reason why. Right?

Margi Dehlin [03:49:00] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:49:01] And so I think everybody out there who knows, like, Like I had heard of the CS letter. I don't think I've actually read it, but I'd heard of it. But you never go look for it because you know deep down that you're gonna be convinced. That's what I think.

John Dehlin [03:49:14] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:49:14] You can't listen to these horses because, you know deep down.

Margi Dehlin [03:49:17] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [03:49:18] That you're gonna. You're gonna, like, you have always known all growing up. Yeah. There's probably something problematic with polygamy. Oh, yeah. There's probably like, you. You kind of know in the back of your mind, even though if you're trying to, like, explain it, explain it away, you know? And so right after she tells me that my intuition is Satan, she walks away. And I'm just sitting there in the chapel. We have some downtime before, like, the next group comes and I say a prayer actually, and I say, like, God, if you even exist, like, let me read something meaningful in the scriptures right now.

John Dehlin [03:49:51] Uh oh.

Michelle Clyde [03:49:52] So I open up the scriptures and there's this verse I read in Alma 32 that says, behold, I say unto you, you, do you suppose that ye cannot worship God save it be in your synagogues only?

John Dehlin [03:50:04] Ouch.

Michelle Clyde [03:50:06] And I thought, wow, right? I don't have to come to this synagogue to worship. So you heard it here. The scriptures told me to not go to the temple.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:19] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [03:50:19] And I felt very emotional. And to be fair, like, I recognize that reading scriptures can be a little bit like a horoscope. Right. It's like you can get the meaning out that you want it to mean.

John Dehlin [03:50:28] Totally.

Michelle Clyde [03:50:30] Which is might have been what it's always been all along, but that was meaningful to me and I felt peace with that.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:38] And it's using actually something that oftentimes you hear in church, you're supposed to

Michelle Clyde [03:50:43] open your scriptures, you're supposed to pray.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:45] Yes. And you used a tool that actually was prescribed at church.

Michelle Clyde [03:50:49] Exactly, exactly. And it brought me peace. Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:53] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:50:53] And that was an experience I had as a child that like, oh, you can read the scriptures and it'll bring you peace. And it brought me peace that, like, what I was going. The decisions I was going to make were right for me, me. So then, yeah, I stopped going to the temple for a temple as a temple worker. I quit. And it's around this time that I decide to experiment not wearing garments. So I have some recommendations for people who are in the same situation as me and are looking for underwear. Because you're thrown back into the world of underwear and you are.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:24] And it's large. Yeah, it is a large world.

Michelle Clyde [03:51:26] Yeah. Especially if you're used to wearing kind of a. A more of a male, like, garment. Right. Women's underwear tend to be, you know, more like panties. You're like, ah, I. I don't know if I'm comfortable wearing that again. There's this brand of women's underwear called walksers. It's like women's boxers. They're what garments should be. I'll just tell you. They come in multiple lengths. So they have short ones or longer ones. It's like a very lgbtq, like, affirming brand because it's like, you know, a lot of people want to wear something, like, more non.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:57] Binary.

John Dehlin [03:51:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:58] Gender. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:51:59] They're so comfortable.

Margi Dehlin [03:52:01] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:52:01] Just the way they're styled. I'm, like, looking at them and I'm just like, this is what the pat. Like, I should send these to the church department and tell them to make garments look like this.

John Dehlin [03:52:10] Does that say for women? Boxers.

Michelle Clyde [03:52:11] Yeah, boxers. My husband, he gets some new underwear that he's like, this is the most comfortable. I think it's called, like, fresh laundry or something. And, you know, even for him, like, a lot of men, men, like, don't tend to have issues with garments, but for him, it's like, they always seem to not work right for him. But, yeah, they're different lengths. Get some period underwear. Because we all know that periods are nightmare in garments. Those are great. So, yeah, that's my recommendation because if you're starting back into that world, it's kind of intimidating. So I got endowed in 2016, so that's. What is that? Eight years ago. Eight years wearing garments.

Margi Dehlin [03:52:48] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:52:49] And I kind of said to my husband, like, it's starting to wear garments feels like you're a little bit robbed of your childhood. Like, goodbye. And just like, things that I did when I was a young girl, like, just wearing a T shirt without a bra or something and nothing underneath, it's like, just feels so comforting that it's like, oh, I get to kind of connect with that again. And that feels really Great.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:09] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:53:10] And also, I just, like, it's so much more comfortable.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:12] So much more comfortable.

Michelle Clyde [03:53:14] And it's not like. Like, you see what I'm wearing today? Like, I. I have bought. Got some tank tops, but, like, I'm not suddenly gonna dress super crazy differently than, like, kind of what my style is.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:24] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:53:25] And it's not like I'm gonna go crazy and start getting a bunch of tattoos and piercings. Like, if I did, who cared? But, like, you know, I'm still me. But that's, like, the point where I'm like, I think I can acknowledge that I don't believe in this anymore.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:37] Yeah. Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:53:39] Yeah. So we. I guess I'll just talk about this really quick. So I did listen to Liz Lamson's Mormon Stories episode, and she kind of said something that really resonated with me. She said that the church did serve her in a way when she needed it. And I think when I was in that mindset and I read that journal entry for that reason that, like, I needed that doctrine about Jesus making you perfect someday. Like, I needed it really badly because that was what I strive for, is perfection. And I think that the church served me to give me a foundation of, like, things that I valued. You know, I really like charity. Giving the charity and giving your time and energy to good causes, things like that. Like, I think that foundation definitely comes from the church. Watching my parents be very generous with the resources. Definitely come from influence from the church. And, you know, all those things served me when I needed it, but kind of in a Marie Kondo way. Do you know who that is? Oh, yeah, her. She, you know, she wrote the book Spark Joy. Her thing is that when you get rid of an object, when you're decluttering, you kind of say a prayer of thank you to it, and then you get rid of it.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:57] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:54:57] Because you can acknowledge that it did something for you for a time.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:01] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:55:02] And for me, I don't really feel, like, super. I don't really feel betrayed by the church. I just feel like it did something for me when I needed it, and I don't need it anymore. And I can kind of peacefully, like, send that little boat away on the water, and I feel, like, at peace with that.

John Dehlin [03:55:22] Very Buddhist.

Michelle Clyde [03:55:23] Yes, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:24] It reminds me of the story of the raft.

John Dehlin [03:55:26] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:26] In Buddhism.

Michelle Clyde [03:55:28] And the one thing I realized I don't need is I don't need eternity. And I wrote in my outline, have you ever noticed that in movies it's always the villains seeking eternal life?

John Dehlin [03:55:38] Yeah, that's Good.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:40] That is good.

Michelle Clyde [03:55:41] Yes. Like, it's never the good guy who's trying to find this hack to get eternal life like Mother Gothel and Rapunzel. I mean, there's so many examples. Voldemort. Yes. Where you're trying to cheat death. You're trying to figure out a way to live forever. And I don't need that anymore. I definitely feel kind of at peace with just being present. And that's kind of another kind of a Buddhist thing, Right. Where it's like, I can just be in today and I can enjoy the feeling of my cheek pressed against my husband's skin and the grass and my toes. Just the beauty of the earth, you know?

Margi Dehlin [03:56:21] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:56:21] I don't need. I don't need eternity. I just need now.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:25] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [03:56:27] And that feels. I feel, just really releases. Releases that need to do everything right.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:40] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:56:42] Because I think I still want to be an ambitious person. I still will try to be my best self, but I don't need to fulfill requirements for a heaven that not everyone I love is getting into anyway.

John Dehlin [03:56:55] And that may not exist.

Michelle Clyde [03:56:57] And that may not exist.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:58] Right.

Michelle Clyde [03:56:58] Because even, like, a few years ago, I was starting to acknowledge the model of the atom. Right. I was starting to realize, like, maybe we don't really understand what the eternities look like. Like, I think we pretend we know a lot more than we do and think. Yeah. And we're all just trying to make sense of things. And, like, I recently had texted my sister because I kind of have gone through, like, everything with her. It's been really great. Just kind of like talking about other things. The weird thing is she doesn't really think about Mormonism. I think it's because she never went to the temple or never went on mission. It's like, not a part of her life. There is something about them wanting to get people in the temple as early

Margi Dehlin [03:57:37] as possible because it's like the extra conditioning you're gonna get this really concentrated experience of.

Michelle Clyde [03:57:44] Yeah, but she, like, doesn't think about things. She's like, oh, she's just living her life, you know? I'm like, how can you not be absorbed with this? You know? But again, it's because she didn't serve a mission. She didn't go to the temple, so. That's right.

Margi Dehlin [03:57:56] And remind me, she doesn't live in Utah.

Michelle Clyde [03:57:58] She doesn't live in Utah anymore.

Margi Dehlin [03:57:59] And I think that that is very different. You have sort of an environmental support to move on as opposed to. I think being in Utah. You have Those reminders everywhere that you still have to deal with. And.

Michelle Clyde [03:58:12] And I do feel like there was a part of me that was sort of holding out for, well, we'll just do everything until we leave Utah, because when my husband does his medical residency, we'll. We're going to leave. And so I'm like, I'll just hold out until then.

Margi Dehlin [03:58:28] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:58:28] But I. There is just, like, you're not allowing yourself to be at peace with that, you know, and it does mean, like, there will be some hard conversations with some loved ones. Right. But, like, and I want to try to protect that time because we won't be here forever, and we probably never will move back. But there is. You get to a point where it's like, you can't live a lie anymore.

Margi Dehlin [03:58:50] Right. Authenticity.

Michelle Clyde [03:58:52] Yeah. And so I said to my. I asked my sister, I texted her, and I said, were you ever holding on to some hope that I would leave the church someday? She says, no. She said, I only ever wanted you to be okay, that I felt differently. And I also didn't want you to be sad that I wasn't going to be in heaven with you.

Margi Dehlin [03:59:12] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [03:59:13] And I kind of told her, you know, actually, I think I stopped believing that in a long time ago. And I think you talked about an episode once that a lot of parents of LGBTQ youth think that their kids are gonna be in heaven with them. Like, they don't subscribe to that anymore for sure.

John Dehlin [03:59:30] Because it's, like, why you don't believe any of it, right?

Michelle Clyde [03:59:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:59:33] And it's part of that cafeteria Mormon thing.

Michelle Clyde [03:59:36] And my husband, you know, being in the military, I've thought we're gonna be moving around a lot. And so the reason why I said I'm a once a month pimo is because I do think there will be times where it'll be beneficial when we're moving around that we can, like. Like go find a church and that we can find people who relate to us. And it's like, oh. Because when you travel and you go to a church, like, we went to Curacao and found a church in Curacao, and it's like, it feels like home. Like, no matter where you go, it does. And so although I've acknowledged that, like, yeah, I do have some challenges with things, and I don't believe this. I love singing in church. That's one thing. I get benefit from it. I love singing, and I don't really have a lot of chances to do that otherwise. And, like, maybe I'd be open minded. To go to, like, a really fun, like, gospel choir, church with the Rose or something. But I love singing in church, and I do really like finding opportunities to serve people. Like, I love when women have babies in the church. Like, the whole war is like, okay, we're making a bunch of meals for you. And I love participating in those kind of things. So I do think that there are some pieces of value that, like, I might go to. And again with that TED Talk, like, I'm open to that not being the case someday.

Margi Dehlin [04:00:42] Right. You're expecting that you may change.

Michelle Clyde [04:00:45] I'm expecting that I may change because you can only ever know what you feel right now, and you don't know what you're gonna feel in years. And I'm like, who knows? Maybe when I'm like, 70, I'll suddenly be like, wanna be all in again. I don't know. Right. You have to keep an open mind that you never know how you're gonna feel.

Margi Dehlin [04:01:01] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:01:01] And I also want to express to anyone listening that to not abandon your friends that are still in the church, because you never know if they're feeling like I was. And the friends that did stick with me, like, now that I'm where I am, it's like, oh, I can turn to them. And they're like, well, they said to me, like, you accepted me when I left, so how could I not accept you? Because I've had some friends that did not keep me along the way, you know, and that was hurtful. But, you know, now I'm here, and it's like, if you had stuck with me, like, we could have still been, you know, we could have still stuck together. So, like, you know, don't. Don't give up hope with your friends that are still 100% believing, because you never know, they might, deep down, be feeling some turmoil like I was.

Stepping Back from Callings and Leaving the Church

Margi Dehlin [04:01:54] I have a question around. You mentioned initially the reason why you decided to be a temple worker was community. And now you're not working in the temple any longer. How is the community piece? How is the. Whatever it is that brought you to try that to fill something that you didn't have? How are you feeling about that now and since you've stopped?

Michelle Clyde [04:02:26] Yeah. I think it's another. Another way where I was like. I think it served me at that time when I needed it because I was very lonely and very, like, trying to find myself after I graduated and was moving into the world.

Margi Dehlin [04:02:37] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:02:38] And now, like, of course, like, there'll be times where I probably will want to have A larger community again. But you know, the church they struggle with, unless you're like living in a house for like 30 years and like everyone knows each other in the neighborhood, like a lot of wards struggle because people aren't really like they're not doing ministering, like as a relief study presidency member, people are not doing ministering. Like no one's doing it. And so even though like people are desiring that community, they're not necessarily getting it unless you're putting in a lot of work to get it. And then that's what I would often do is I would have to reach out to people. I would do a bunch of work that wasn't often reciprocated.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:24] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:03:26] And right now, you know, just like with, with my husband and I's life will be a bit transient. Like I've just kind of like I don't feel I'm in as much of a need for that anymore.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:36] Right.

Michelle Clyde [04:03:36] Because I do have, you know, the handful of people that I really do love. Like my sister in law ever since I kind of of have told her like, oh yeah, I've left the church too. And she's the one that, you know, didn't bless her baby. Like we've become really close.

Margi Dehlin [04:03:49] Yes. Right.

Michelle Clyde [04:03:49] And she's become a really good friend of mine and we've. Like I said earlier, like, you should have told me all those years ago that you. Because she ended up, she lost her faith when she was doing research for BYU because she was noticing some issues with like how much money the church has and she was doing a lot of research about poverty and she's realizing that the church could fix it like that, but they don't, you know, they choose not to, even in Utah, you know. And so she had been out of the church for years and I didn't even know it because we'd never talked about, she was just, we just saw each other, we never talked about it. Like if you would have just told me, like, I would have said, me too. I'm feeling these things and we need to, you know, so I'm finding community in these like select people in my life. Like I've gotten closer with my cousins again. That one that I went to when I went through the temple, they've both left and are on the queer spectrum. And I don't know if me being more in the church kind of brought us apart. But then now we're back together, being close friends again. And I'm finding these people throughout my life that I'm like, I can Reconnect with them. And I can reconnect with them because now I'm on this other. I'm on this other side.

Margi Dehlin [04:04:59] That's right. And they sound like they're relationships of depth where you can talk.

Michelle Clyde [04:05:05] Because I was getting so tired of shallow friendships where, like, you never talk about anything that matters. And that's what a lot. What I was feeling when I was hanging out with these wives of medical students or when I was with my ward members, it's just like nothing we're talking about matters. And that was so frustrating. And I felt like I'm so tired of these shallow friendships tips. And now I can just get with these people and talk about our shared experiences. And it's like that's felt. That has felt more connecting than I felt in the church. Yeah, I'll say.

Margi Dehlin [04:05:35] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:05:36] I'll say it again. Any religion that makes siblings or parents, sibling dyads not want to talk to each other about something that they're going through, that's very hard.

Michelle Clyde [04:05:47] Yeah, that's a problem.

John Dehlin [04:05:48] Is a huge red flag. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:05:52] Yeah. And you know, like, I, you know that I haven't told my parents yet. I think like Mormon women are taught like their true purpose in life is to make sure all their kids stay in the church. And that's like all they, all their whole purpose.

John Dehlin [04:06:04] You don't want your mom to feel like she's a failure.

Michelle Clyde [04:06:06] I don't want my mom to feel like she's a failure because in actuality, she's raised some amazing kids who are in tune with themselves.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:14] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:06:16] Which is a feat, you know, and she should be proud of that because it's the thing.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:21] It is, as it turns out, it is the thing.

John Dehlin [04:06:24] Jesus said the kingdom of God is within. Oh, you're. Go ahead.

Michelle Clyde [04:06:27] Yeah. It's just she should be really proud of where her kids are. You know, it might take her a while to feel that way if she's mourning that we're not following the path that she wanted for us. But she should feel proud that all of her kids have overcome challenges, that they know who they are and they're in tune with what they want.

Margi Dehlin [04:06:47] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:06:48] Because if I kept living the way I was living, like, it wouldn't have worked. And my sister in law told me about my brother. She said, you know, he wouldn't have been alive because he was feeling suicidal when he was in the church. So by leaving the church, like, you know, there's this myth that, you know, now you're off the boat. And now you're in darkness. But it's like, actually, you know, think about all the opportunities that are in front of me, and now that there's not, like, this division of us versus them.

Margi Dehlin [04:07:19] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:07:20] Because that's what the church does is it puts us and then the rest of the world. I'm like, there's a. We're just a small, little bitty group of the entire human family. And, like, how sad that we have to put ourselves against each other like that instead of embracing each other and learning from each other.

John Dehlin [04:07:37] Amen. Beautiful. Couple things from your outline. I just want you to comment on. One was saying no to a calling.

Michelle Clyde [04:07:49] Oh, yeah. So I told my relief study president that I was uncomfortable visiting people because it just gave me a lot of anxiety for the reasons that I said. Like, I felt like an imposter. It was just like, I have to, you know, know, work up all of this. And I. And I get kind of, like, social anxiety sweats, like, even if I appear, like, very easy going, like, I kind of get that. And so I told her, I don't want to visit people anymore. And she was like, well, I need you to visit people. And so I actually got released, which is unusual for study callings. Like, usually do them for three years. But I was not offended at all. I felt relief. And so then we go in, and the bishop tries to give my husband and I a calling just to be in the nursery. But because I knew how much relief I felt being released from that calling, I was like, I need to be true to that.

Margi Dehlin [04:08:38] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:08:38] And I need to go if I want to go to church every once in a while, so I can enjoy singing hymns or enjoy whatever I want to enjoy. I want to be on my terms, you know?

Margi Dehlin [04:08:47] Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle Clyde [04:08:49] So I'm like, we're in that meeting, and I'm, like, looking at my husband, and he looks like he's about to say yes. And I'm like. I'm like, honey, you don't even. Like, you don't believe in this anymore. Like, how can you say yes to calling? And he keeps talking about it like we're just saying yes. Like, he has no idea that we're gonna say no. Like, it's just like, well, the obvious answer is everyone says yes to a calling. So he's like, well, this will work for you because it'd only have to be once a month. I know you're busy. Medical school, but. So I say to him, I just need to be honest with you. I don't see myself as a true believing Mormon anymore. And my husband's like, oh, she just said it.

John Dehlin [04:09:24] And he's like, at last she said it.

Michelle Clyde [04:09:26] At last I said it. And the bishop is like, like kind of. His vibe is like, well, do you want to do the calling anyway? It's like didn't phase him at all.

Margi Dehlin [04:09:35] He's like, but back to how we could use you.

Michelle Clyde [04:09:37] Yes, exactly. I was like, sort. And to be with people's children, to teach people's children.

John Dehlin [04:09:43] But nowadays they're scraping the bottle of the barrel because they're losing everybody.

Michelle Clyde [04:09:46] Well, I guess I'm the bottom of the barrel.

John Dehlin [04:09:48] No, and nah. And the cream of the crop. No, but I mean, I've talked to members of bishoprics or even bishop, when they're called to be bishops or in bishoprics, they tell the stake president, I don't believe anymore. And they'll say, that's why we're calling

Michelle Clyde [04:10:03] you, because we need you to.

Margi Dehlin [04:10:05] Well, it's really indicative of just real need. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:10:09] Or it's like they maybe hope that they can relate to people who are

John Dehlin [04:10:12] struggling with their faith or that you'll

Margi Dehlin [04:10:13] start believing, activate again. Maybe they could keep you going.

Michelle Clyde [04:10:17] Yeah, but that just proves like, I tried to be a temple worker to keep me going and it actually.

Margi Dehlin [04:10:23] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:10:23] Back first, like, I told my husband, I think I needed to be a temple worker for that time, to solidify to me.

Margi Dehlin [04:10:28] Right.

John Dehlin [04:10:29] But these bishops or members of bishoprics end up having horrible mental health and even suicidality because it's not good to be in a position where everybody thinks you believe one thing and you really don't. It's bad.

Michelle Clyde [04:10:43] But I was surprised that he didn't even, like, seem to want to address it with me, like, oh, tell me how you feel, or what is it that's bothering you? It was like, nothing.

John Dehlin [04:10:52] Oh, no, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [04:10:53] Nothing.

Michelle Clyde [04:10:54] Nothing.

John Dehlin [04:10:54] No, just like you packed it down, turned it off. He just.

Michelle Clyde [04:10:56] And he's just like, well, anyway, do you want to do it? You know, do you want to do the calling anyway? And I'm just like. And so I'm talking to my husband, he's like, well, just go home and think about it. And I'm talking to my husband, he's like, well, if we go sometimes, shouldn't we, like, try to help out? And I'm like, yeah, but what if you're like in a nursery lesson, it's like, hey, time to color Joseph Smith and talk about how awesome Joseph Smith is. And I said, he said, well, I Wouldn't do that. And he's like. I said, well, then why take the calling? And so I said, I want you to reply to the bishop and say that we're not taking it because I want it to be like, you're in agreement with me, and not being like, oh, his wife just doesn't want to because he didn't say the words out loud. But, like, my husband thinks the same thing as me. He's not saying that.

Margi Dehlin [04:11:36] Don't hang me out to drag you.

Michelle Clyde [04:11:37] Yeah. I'm like, you need to, like, you know, step up and, you know, support me. So he responded to him and said, yeah, it's not the right time for us. Is what he said.

Margi Dehlin [04:11:47] Great. That's great.

Michelle Clyde [04:11:49] And I felt like, how good is it to. And my mission companion, the one from Hawaii, she joked that the same thing happened to her. Her bishop tried to get her to have a calling even after she didn't believe. And she called it, like, Jedi mind tricks. He was like, trying to be like, anyway, but will you do it anyway? You know, just like, trying to, like, trick her into taking the calling. And she's like, no, I'm still not going to take the calling.

John Dehlin [04:12:13] You know, they're not used to people saying, no.

Margi Dehlin [04:12:16] I was going to say, and that's a boundaries question.

John Dehlin [04:12:19] He believes God told him that that's the calling you should have.

Michelle Clyde [04:12:23] Well, it kind of shows that there's no gift of discernment that exists because I was called as a Relief Society member, as I was, like, not believing things, like, as I was, like, you know, in this spiral of, like, not feeling things and also, like, being promoted, I guess you could say when I was in the temple to be coordinator, like, I was two different kinds of coordinators. I was there. And I'll also add that all those body issues that I was having, like, they're gone now.

John Dehlin [04:12:50] Oh, the eating disorder thoughts.

Michelle Clyde [04:12:52] Yeah. Just, like, being obsessed with how my body looks. Like I've very much, like, come into, like, just. Yeah, if these pants don't fit today, throw them aside and put on ones that do. You know, I just don't think about my body that way anymore.

John Dehlin [04:13:06] That's the flip side of the perfectionism, slash plastic surgery conversation that we had. When you lose the perfectionism, sometimes you lose some of the body image issues.

Michelle Clyde [04:13:19] Yeah. Optimization. Yeah. Now that I'm not, like, trying to, I guess, perform for anybody else, I'm just, like. I'm just living in my body. Yeah. I'm not. Maybe I've gained some weight here. And there, Whatever it is, but it's just like, yeah, yeah, that's life. And I do think it's such a Buddhist thing to just be very accepting of what things are and not needing to be any different. And it's not to say that you should never strive to be better, but it's just like, there is so much peace that comes from just, this is where I am. I'm in this body. And what a gift it is just to be alive, just to have today.

Margi Dehlin [04:13:57] That's right. And connecting more to how it serves you, shows up for you, how it feels. As opposed to, like, yeah, just what it looks like.

Michelle Clyde [04:14:06] And just to, like, be comfortable, like. Like I said, just wearing, like, just a T shirt and underwear. It's just like, I can just be in my body. I'm not thinking about how I look.

Margi Dehlin [04:14:15] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:14:15] In this, you know, outfit or whatever.

Margi Dehlin [04:14:17] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:14:17] I'm in it. And it's, you know, neutral. They call it body neutrality. That's just like. Yeah, it's just my body.

Margi Dehlin [04:14:25] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:14:25] I don't have to hate it. I don't have to love it. I'm just here.

Margi Dehlin [04:14:27] And.

Michelle Clyde [04:14:27] And that is a very recent thing for me. One thing I'll recommend for anybody, but maybe especially women, is when you get out of the shower and you look in the mirror, just smile at your naked body in the mirror. Because you're smiling at yourself and you're looking at yourself, and you are creating some trigger in your brain that, I love this. You're smiling, and that's a habit I have where just smile. And I'm like, this is my body and this is what it looks like. And that does something in your brain. I don't know what. You could tell me.

John Dehlin [04:14:55] It's a positive association.

Michelle Clyde [04:14:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:14:58] That's all our brain really does, is it just makes associations. So there's something to it. Okay. Talk about coffee really quick.

Michelle Clyde [04:15:05] Oh, so I recognize that I'm not. I don't, like, love coffee because I'm just not a bitter person. But I did. I did buy.

Margi Dehlin [04:15:14] Yeah. You say we believe in growth mindset.

Michelle Clyde [04:15:17] I did buy. I even wrote down the date. I think it was, like, the day I took a picture of it. I went to Starbucks and I got a mocha, which is definitely just fancy hot chocolate. Well, it was milked. It was just iced, so it was like a fancy chocolate milk, but. And, yeah, it was like the boogeyman. I said, the Mormon boogeyman has been defeated. I bought a tank top. And I got some coffee, and my husband, like, he's gotten a few coffee drinks. He's gotten some of those, like, Frappuccino glass bottles you get. And I think he.

Margi Dehlin [04:15:55] Are they, like, shakes? Are the Frappuccinos, like, it's just like a chilled.

Michelle Clyde [04:15:59] Oh, just more of a chilled coffee beverage you get from.

John Dehlin [04:16:02] I think they're shakes.

Michelle Clyde [04:16:04] But I think he'll probably be more into it than me because I'm very sensitive to caffeine, so I'm not really probably gonna. If I do drink something, I'll probably decaf, but it's like, I can just eat a tiramisu and not feel like it's like, ooh, this is. This is a scary dessert, you know? But it was just kind of funny. Like, I took a picture of my drink, I sent it to my sister, and I'm like, I did it.

Margi Dehlin [04:16:22] That's right. Milestone.

Michelle Clyde [04:16:24] Yeah, it was a milestone.

John Dehlin [04:16:25] Mormon boogeyman has been vanquished, and it's like.

Michelle Clyde [04:16:27] And nothing happened to me.

Margi Dehlin [04:16:29] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:16:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:16:30] And you didn't get a flat tire.

Margi Dehlin [04:16:33] No. You're like, I'm still standing.

Michelle Clyde [04:16:35] And the funny thing is, you know, I'm kind of disconnecting from that. I feel like there's a transactional God where it's like, you have to do things in order to get things.

Margi Dehlin [04:16:46] That's right. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:16:47] And it's like, I don't want to be part of that anymore. Like, I don't want to have to, like, be in constant fear that one wrong move is going to make, like, me get in a car accident or something. Right. There's always the kind of. That in the back of your mind. When I was a child, I always thought, if my family is doing really well right now, something bad could happen to us because things can't go too well for too long. You know what I mean? So I don't really to want. Want to be part of that transactional system anymore.

Margi Dehlin [04:17:09] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:17:10] Because, for one, it doesn't work because bad things happen to good people all the time, and good things happen to bad people all the time.

John Dehlin [04:17:15] And Mormons aren't always good people.

Michelle Clyde [04:17:16] Yeah, exactly. There's good people and bad people everywhere in and out of the church. So. Yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [04:17:24] That's brilliant. Do you want to just really quickly talk about the atonement and how it's maybe not as useful to you anymore, the. The theology around it?

Life After Mormonism and Closing Reflections

Michelle Clyde [04:17:34] Yeah, I kind of mentioned that, like, the perfectionist in me, like, I really wanted the. Really needed the Atonement to be real. Because I, like, need it to be perfected, which, you know, there's parts of that that seem very nice because, you know, all of us are flawed. And it, it's really nice to think that someday we'll be perfect someday. But I don't. I don't feel like striving for that is helpful for me. And again, just being mindful and present, like those spiritual practices of meditation, journal writing, affirmations. I love going on walks and just thinking, you know, yes. Just trying to, like, it's sometimes hard for me present with adhd, but just like trying to like, look at the mountains deeply and just being like, wow, those are beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [04:18:18] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:18:19] And just look at something and be like, wow, that's lovely. And just really trying to appreciate beauty. That feels a lot. Like it feeds me a lot more than having to constantly be analyzing what mistakes did I make today that I need to repent of.

Margi Dehlin [04:18:35] Right.

Michelle Clyde [04:18:36] Because that can be pretty unhealthy if it goes too far.

John Dehlin [04:18:41] What about books versus Scripture?

Michelle Clyde [04:18:43] Yeah, I wrote that. I said, imagine if people read all different kinds of books rather than just reading one set of scriptures for their whole life life. Like, how much it would open their mind.

John Dehlin [04:18:55] Just the classics, right?

Michelle Clyde [04:18:56] Just like anything.

John Dehlin [04:18:57] Like New York Times bestsellers.

Michelle Clyde [04:18:58] Yeah, I've just been reading all kinds of things. Contemporary fiction, classics, like everything, even non fiction. I love when you just kind of like open your mind to a new part of the world or an experience you never knew about before because it like just really opens up empathy for people when you get to be put in their space. Like, absolutely. Reading educated is very much like, wow, I just never knew people, people could go through that. And it really opens your mind to empathy for them. Like I. It's funny because I decided to finish. So this year the church does a Come follow me, which is like a. While you're reading the scriptures, you kind of have a scripture guide. I decided to finish reading. If I feel like it. I'll just read some of the Book of Mormon because I find it so interesting to read through a new lens because I can start seeing, like, why did Joseph Smith think this was important? Important to have this in here, you know, because ever since listening to LDS discussions episodes and kind of like learning about the process of how the Book of Mormon was made, it's like now when I'm reading some passages, it's really interesting to say, oh, this might have been a reason why this was important to their time. Like, this is why they put this in or, you know, it's just like a fascinating lens, but I said, like, once I finish it, I want to start reading some other things. Like, I'd love to read the Quran. I'd love to read, so some Confucius and Taoist text and, you know, the Diamond Sutra, things like that. I just, like, want to learn about the world, and I would love to just open my mind to understanding how all different kinds of people are believing in this world, are existing in this world. So just imagine if people did that rather than just reading the same set of four books for their entire lifetime.

Margi Dehlin [04:20:33] Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Love the curiosity.

John Dehlin [04:20:38] Mm. Two questions. Are you worried about how this might affect your relationship with your parents and in laws? And are you worried at all about church discipline? Those are two separate questions.

Michelle Clyde [04:20:53] I don't know. I just feel like, what if I said that I'd be disciplined about

John Dehlin [04:21:00] you told the truth?

Michelle Clyde [04:21:02] Yeah, I guess. I mean, all I'm saying is my

John Dehlin [04:21:04] life, my experiences, trust me, it's happened.

Margi Dehlin [04:21:07] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:21:09] They might have a file on me now, right?

John Dehlin [04:21:11] Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:21:12] But if I want to show up to a church, you know, if I'm living in an air force base in Japan or something, if I want to show up to church, I don't really think anything's going to happen.

Margi Dehlin [04:21:20] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:21:20] Okay, cool. I don't. I don't want to live in fear.

John Dehlin [04:21:24] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:21:24] I feel like, you know, that's kind of like what? Maybe not in those words, but there's some part of fear that keeps you in the church because you fear.

Margi Dehlin [04:21:32] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:21:32] You fear the world. You fear what's going to happen, happens. So about fear, future, you know, I don't want to live in fear, so I definitely, like what happens, happens, and. And I'll deal with it when it gets there. But very present. That's a future me problem.

Margi Dehlin [04:21:47] Very present of you. But I also think sometimes from where we've been, right, you recognize how much you walked with fear before, and it's literally like it feels like a past version of yourself where you're like, I've done that. I've done that for so many days of my life that, you know, I have zero interest in feeding that beast. Right. And that's kind of what I'm hearing from you is just your value of the present and also just kind of keeping fear protect, particularly if it's like, showing up to control you or control your behavior in a way that. That you're really trying to be aware of that and not let it control you?

Michelle Clyde [04:22:31] Yeah. And I think again, to my intentions, I want there to be space for people like me to exist. That if there's somebody that's decided that the church isn't serving them or that they don't believe, but they want to show up one random Sunday because they, you know, they want to sing some hymns that day or whatever it is that brings them there that day. Like, I want there to be space for that.

Margi Dehlin [04:22:50] Yes.

Michelle Clyde [04:22:51] Because, you know, like, we aren't paying tithing anymore, which means, like, I'm not funneling money into maybe an organization that is doing some harmful things to certain groups. But, like, if, you know, it's just there's certain things that I'm finding valuable or maybe someday I won't want to do that. You know, I'm open minded to that, but I think there should be space for people to find what they need. And so if, you know, if someone's disciplined for that, that's just a shame.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:18] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:23:18] And it is what it is, you know.

Margi Dehlin [04:23:20] Yeah. Control. It's a control.

Michelle Clyde [04:23:22] And also with, like, in laws, I think, of course they're gonna be disappointed. But I would say, well, did you listen to it is one thing. Did you actually listen to what I was feeling? Because that journal entry doesn't lie. You know how it felt in the temple.

John Dehlin [04:23:35] Yeah. It wasn't performative.

Michelle Clyde [04:23:37] Yeah. That was how I was really feeling. And also, you can pretty much. You can see very evidently that I was doing everything I could to make it work, and it just, you know, wasn't. And so I think if you can, you know, honestly confront that, it's like, I don't know what else we can have a conversation about. So I can expect people to be disappointed but allow them to. I think that's something Dr. Julia Hanks actually taught me is like, allow. Like disappointing your parents is actually a part of life.

Margi Dehlin [04:24:07] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:24:07] You are going to disappoint. It's not if, but when.

Margi Dehlin [04:24:10] That's right.

Michelle Clyde [04:24:10] You know, even if you are doing everything perfect, there's gonna be something. Something right. Because you could never meet someone's perfect expectations of you, so.

Margi Dehlin [04:24:17] That's right.

John Dehlin [04:24:18] I love her advice. It's just so blunt, Right?

Michelle Clyde [04:24:21] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [04:24:21] But elegant and practical. Which is. Which is when somebody's trying to dig into what's going on.

Michelle Clyde [04:24:29] Well, I don't. I don't know what you're saying.

John Dehlin [04:24:31] No, it's in your outline. It's just like, I don't want to have this conversation.

Michelle Clyde [04:24:33] Oh, yeah. So, like, I Said a boundary. So there's boundaries. So, you know, if there gets to be a point where it's like we're trying, you know, someone's trying to convince my husband, someone's trying to convince me, it's like, you know, I can say I'm not interested in that conversation. Can we spend our time together in a different way?

John Dehlin [04:24:49] Yeah. That's so good.

Margi Dehlin [04:24:50] It is so good and so direct. And she.

Michelle Clyde [04:24:53] She definitely taught me that. Like, I wouldn't have known that I could do that.

Margi Dehlin [04:24:56] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:24:57] So thanks again, Julie. But, yeah, it's just like, I can say I love to spend time with you, but let's do it in a productive way. That serves us. But both.

Margi Dehlin [04:25:06] That's right. Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:25:08] Easier said than done. But by practicing it in your head, it can become easier, you know?

Margi Dehlin [04:25:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:25:14] Beautiful. Okay. And you don't want to give up your passport. You don't want to just leave the church and resign. You're right now wanting to stay physically in, mentally out, Attend when you want.

Michelle Clyde [04:25:28] Yeah. I mean, again, who knows if I'll feel that way even a month from now, because, you know, things change. But right now, that's what we're doing. Like, we went to take conference two weeks ago, and it was just kind of fun to watch the children sing and listen to some of the talks. Right. But again, who knows if that's how I feel? But that's how I feel right now. Yeah. I'll go every once in a while if it serves me. If it doesn't, I won't.

Margi Dehlin [04:25:52] And you're connecting with yourself. Yeah. Connecting to your needs in the moment

Michelle Clyde [04:25:57] and to not feel like, obligation to, you know, I have to do this because. Why? Why am I going. I think even people who are most believing in as you can be, you should do a little bit of self, you know, reflection. Reflection of why, why am I doing this? What does it give me? You know, like, what am I seeking for when I'm doing this? And that goes for, like, all kinds of habits. Drinking, alcohol, whatever. Why am I turning towards this? What. What is it that I'm seeking? That's a really reflective question that I think even the most ex Mormon, the most believing Mormon can ask.

Margi Dehlin [04:26:32] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:26:33] Just to, like, try to do, solidify. Am I doing this because it really feeds me or am I doing it because I need to. To survive? Like, I was right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:26:44] Well, I'm going to say it. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say something bold. For me, this interview has been as iconic for kind of the Zillennials as like the Donna Show Walter or the Leah Young interviews have been. This is, this is for me gonna become an iconic interview for Mormon Stories podcast which after 2000 episodes. I don't say that to everyone I interview.

Michelle Clyde [04:27:10] Well, I'm thinking that there's probably like I'm holding a flag for. There's thousands of people who feel like me, who are my age group that like, I'm hoping that I can say I'm representing you because I know that they're feeling similar to me about there's certain things that are rubbing them the wrong way and that's what you gotta do.

Margi Dehlin [04:27:30] And can we just like marvel that it's your birthday?

Michelle Clyde [04:27:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:27:33] And that this happened on your birthday too, that it'll be multiple days. This is a slice, this is like a moment in time of this present self, this version of you today.

Michelle Clyde [04:27:46] And it's funny because, you know, like I love like making memory books and like photo books and stuff and it's interesting to reflect on like who, who I was in each moment. And I was wholly that person in that moment. And then look, I was so different in this one and like here I am now and it's just, I feel very excited about like what the future holds. And now I'm like, I kind of got out of that, you know, overcooked, burnt out version of myself where like now I have like, like a passion to want to work creatively again. Like, it's weird. I just have sudden burst of energy to work creatively. I have so many ideas for paintings I want to do. I want to make, you know, lots of reels and TikToks and different things to try to show my art and I feel like, you know, the path in front of me is like, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot to look forward to.

Margi Dehlin [04:28:37] Mm. We're excited for you.

John Dehlin [04:28:40] This is a birthday you'll never forget.

Michelle Clyde [04:28:41] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [04:28:42] Literally tell people about your art, how to find, find you on Instagram and, and your website and all that.

Michelle Clyde [04:28:48] Yeah. So my, all my handles are Michelle at Michelle clyde art. So michelleclight art.com and then TikTok. I have a YouTube page that I would like to start posting more on. But they're all the same. TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Michelle Clyde Art. I'm going to be posting a lot of really fun time lapse videos, chatting while I'm painting videos, listening to Mormon

John Dehlin [04:29:12] stories while you're painting.

Michelle Clyde [04:29:13] Yeah, I totally. If you see me with headphones in a video, I Might be listening to that, but I think they'll be pretty enjoyable to watch, so.

John Dehlin [04:29:23] Oh, the art's fantastic.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:24] It is amazing.

John Dehlin [04:29:25] Julia was also raving.

Michelle Clyde [04:29:26] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [04:29:27] Yeah.

Michelle Clyde [04:29:28] Yeah. I kind of was in a space where creatively, I didn't have a passion. And weirdly, now I just feel really excited. So look forward to more.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:37] Yes, we will. Happy birthday to you, and thank you for sharing your story with us.

John Dehlin [04:29:43] Yeah. Thank you so much, Michelle, Clyde, wish you and your husband all the best. Please stay in touch.

Michelle Clyde [04:29:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:49] Yeah. All right. Well, Margi, thanks for joining today.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:53] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [04:29:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [04:29:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:55] So glad to be time flew by. Four and a half hours. What do you think?

Michelle Clyde [04:29:57] I can't believe that's all.

John Dehlin [04:29:58] Yeah, four and a half hours right on the dot. Well, thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. If you value these episodes, number one. Thank you. You. If you're a donor, we couldn't do this without you. If you value this content and you don't want to see it continue and you're not a donor, please go to moremorestories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep providing this content. Please subscribe and like on YouTube, on Facebook, on TikTok, on Instagram. Please share these episodes wherever you can and mostly just be good to each other and be kind to each other. Email us if you have feedback. We renovated our website. If you want to apply to come on Mormon Stories, there's an application now that you fill out. You know, Michelle just emailed me a couple, like a week, week and a half ago, and here she is. So it can happen. She wrote a really, really great email that was very compelling. But anyway, we'd love to have. We'd love to hear from you in whatever way you want to share, but we love what we do. Thanks for joining us today and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Right, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [04:31:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:31:04] Take care, everybody.

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