Welcome and Live Verdict Reading

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is May 12, 2023, and we have some breaking news. For those of you who have been following Mormon Stories Podcast for the past few months or years, you know that we've been covering the Lori Valo trial from a Mormon perspective along with Chad Dabel, to just try and understand what's going on, to keep people informed, and to kind of analyze how Mormon, you know, this whole story is and to analyze the Mormon aspect. So right now in Boise, Idaho, the verdict is about to be read. We are sharing the East Idaho news live stream. Is that right, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:47] Yes, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] And we're joined by Megan, Megan Connor, who was recently on Mormon Stories podcast. It's one of the most successful episodes of all time. And Megan grew up with Lori Valo and is Lori Valo's cousin. Megan, welcome. Thanks for joining us.

Megan Conner [00:01:03] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Megan, how are you feeling?

Megan Conner [00:01:06] I'm very nervous.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] Yeah. Okay, well, let's go ahead. And we've got visuals of the live feed. Megan, do you feel like sharing, just while we're waiting for the. For the judge to enter, anything you want to share about this past week, the reactions to your interview and, you know, what's gone on with the trial in the past week since we discussed it, and anything else you're thinking and feeling?

Megan Conner [00:01:35] Yeah, I really. I really think he's done a job. I think the prosecution has done a great job and had a lot of hard work to do, and I'm so grateful for all the hours that they've put in and for everybody who's covering this. I mean, it's. It's made it accessible for those of us who can't be there. And I think it's important for, you know, those of us who've been affected to try to find some healing through understanding all the little things that we didn't know before. So for me especially, it's really helpful to hear all the details that I didn't know before and to kind of try to. To make a little bit more sense of this crazy situation. So it's been difficult. It's been very emotional, but hopefully we'll get some healing today.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:02:18] All rise.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:21] Looks like they're rising right now.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:24] All right. Good afternoon, everyone. We are going on the record. I'm a court reporter. Are you ready?

Video Clip 1 [00:02:28] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:02:29] All right, thank you. This is case CR 222-11-1624. State of Idaho vs Lori Noreen Vallow the matter before the court today is for a verdict in the jury trial. It's been conducted over the last several weeks in this case. The court will note on the record, prosecution is here, represented by Mr. Wood, Ms. Blake and Ms. Smith. The defense, Mr. Archibald, Mr. Thomas are present, as well as the defendant who is present. The court's been advised that the jury has reached a verdict at this time. Is the state ready to proceed?

Video Clip 1 [00:03:06] Yes, your honor.

Video Clip 1 [00:03:07] Is the defense ready to proceed? Yes, you, Honor. Very well, let's have the jury's right in place. While the jurors are being brought in, I'd like to indicate that this matter is being live streamed on the court's YouTube channel. In addition, the court's existing conduct order is in effect and everyone needs to comply with that conduct order. This verdict has several counts. The court is going to require that all in attendance abstain from any sort of loud outbursts or sounds that can in any way affect the proceedings in this matter as counts are read in the verdict. And I expect to maintain order and decorum, as has been the case throughout this trial, with those in attendance. So please keep that in mind once we get to this stage of these proceedings. So with that in mind, if the jurors are ready, they can be seated. All right, please. All right. Thank you, Mr. Bailiff. Please be seated. All right. The court will note that we had alternate jurors that were excused upon deliberation. So now, the remaining 12 jurors who have deliberated are here and appear to all be properly seated. Will council stipulate that the jury is all present and properly seated on the state?

Video Clip 1 [00:04:44] Yes, your honor.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:45] Will the defense will stipulate. Yes. All right, at this time, the court will inquire then from the jury as the jury reached a verdict. Yeah. Very well. If you have the verdict form, I'd ask the bailiff bring that over here and we'll have it brought to the clerk to be read. All right, the court has reviewed the verdict form, find that it's been properly completed, signed and dated. So at this time, I'll direct the clerk to please read the verdict into the record. The defendant would please rise.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:32] In the district court of the 7th Judicial District of the state of Idaho and for the county of Fremont, state of Idaho, plaintiff versus Lori Noreen Vallow, aka Lori Noreen Babel, defendant case number CR 22211624, verdict. We, the jury, duly empanelled and sworn to try the above entitled action for our verdict, unanimously answer the questions submitted

Video Clip 1 [00:05:58] to us as Follows.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:00] Question number one, in regards to count one of the amended indictment, is Lori Noreen Vallow not guilty or guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder of Kylie Ryan and grand theft by deception? Answer guilty. Question number two. In regards to count two of the amended indictment, is Lori Noreen Vallow not guilty or guilty of first degree murder of Kylie Ryan? Answer guilty. Question number three. In regards to count three of the amended indictment, is Lori Noreen Vallow not guilty or guilty of conspiracy to commit first degree murder of Joshua Jackson Vallow and grand theft by deception? Answer guilty. Question number four. In regards to count four, the amended indictment is Lori Noreen Vallow not guilty or guilty of first degree murder of Joshua Jackson Vallow? Answer guilty. Question number five. In regards to count five of the amended indictment, is Lori Noreen Vallow not guilty or guilty of conspiracy to commit first three murder of Tamara Tammy Davel? Answer guilty. Question number six, in regards to count seven of the amended indictment, is Lori Noreen Vallow not guilty or guilty of grand theft? Answer guilty. Stated this 12th day of May, 2023, signed by the presiding officer.

Video Clip 1 [00:07:42] All right, please be seated. Madam clerk, thank you for reading the verdict into the record. At this time, let me just inquire of the jury, is this in fact your true and correct verdict? Yes. Thank you. Let me ask now from council, does the state wish to have the jury?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:02] We do not, your honor.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:03] Does the defense wish to have the jury pull? Yes, your honor. Okay, the jury will be pulled at this time. Madam clerk, if you would please indicate only by juror numbers of each of the jurors if this is their true and correct verdict individually.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:19] Juror number four, is this your true and correct verdict?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:23] Yes, it is.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:25] Juror number five, is this your true and correct verdict?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:28] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:30] Juror number six, is this your true and correct verdict?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:33] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:34] Juror number eight, is this your true and correct verdict?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:37] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:39] Juror number nine, is this your true and correct verdict?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:42] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:43] Juror number 10, is this your true and correct verdict?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:46] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:47] Juror number 11, is this your true and correct verdict? Yes. Juror number 12, is this your true and correct verdict?

Video Clip 1 [00:08:53] Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:08:55] Juror number 13, is this your true and correct verdict? Yes. Juror number 14, is this your true and correct verdict? Yes. Juror number 15, is this your true and correct verdict? Yes. Juror number 16, is this your true and correct verdict? Yes.

Video Clip 1 [00:09:12] All right, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. The court does find it's a unanimous verdict in this case, so I will direct the clerk to record the verdict into the record of this case. I'll now have a closing jury instruction for our jurors and also those alternate jurors that are in attendance today. You have now completed your duties as jurors in this case and are discharged with the sincere thanks of this court. The question may arise as to whether you may discuss this case with the attorneys or with anyone else. For your guidance, the court instructs you that whether you talk to the attorneys or to anyone else is entirely your own decision. It is proper for you if you want to, but you are not required to do so and you may choose not to discuss the case with anyone at all. If you choose to talk to someone about the case, you may tell them as much or little as you like about your deliberations or the facts that influenced your decision. If you decide to discuss the case with anyone, you should be careful to respect the privacy and feelings of your fellow jurors. You should limit your comments to your own perceptions and feelings. If anyone persists in discussing the case over your objections or becomes critical of your service either before or after any discussion has begun, please report that to me at this time. Then the court offers its sincere thanks to the jurors. I appreciate your patience and attentiveness throughout this lengthy trial. I also thank you again for upholding your important civic duty as jurors in this case. I'd also like to thank the attorneys who tried this case for your professionalism throughout the proceedings and in the pre trial motions that came before trial at this time. Then the court will discuss briefly sentencing in this case. In Idaho pursuant to Title 19, Chapter 25, a report is required to be prepared before sentencing called a pre sentence Investigation report. In a typical case, that report takes at least two months to prepare. In a case such as this, it will likely take longer. The court will inquire as to a pre sentence investigator for the time frame required to prepare the report in this case. Upon getting an estimation then the court will reach out to counsel for determining a date for sentencing. I'll just advise everyone that will likely be I'm thinking at least three months probably before that sentencing to be scheduled to have the report completed. The court will also advise at this time. Then upon conclusion of the proceedings, the defendant will be remanded back to custody of the ADA County Sheriff at this time to be transferred to the Fremont County Sheriff for further proceedings in Fremont county for sentencing. The court will also instruct the clerk to collect any of the jurors notes pursuant to Idaho Criminal Rule 24.1 a. At this time, then the court will ask that the jurors and any alternates in attendance be excused from the courtroom. And I am going to direct that all in attendance here remain seated until such time as the jurors have been completely exited from the courtroom. And in addition, I'll let the jurors know there is additional information you'll be receiving through the court administration offices on your way out as you leave today. So, again, thank you for your service. Court will be adjourned. And Mr. Bailiff, if you could have all rise for your jury.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] All right, please.

Guest [00:12:45] All right. Thank you, council. Thank you, everyone, for your decorum this afternoon. Court is adjourned.

Immediate Reactions to the Guilty Verdict

John Dehlin [00:12:54] All right. Well, there is the verdict, and we have with us. I'm. I'm John Dehlin, host of Mormon Stories Podcast. We have Gerardo Sumano with us as well. He's been helping us cover the story. And we are very fortunate to have Lori Valo's cousin, Megan Connor with us as well. Megan, none of us want to sort of be exploitative or inappropriate because this is a very serious and somber moment. We know you grew up with Laurie. Maybe we can start by just giving you some time to share your feelings and your reactions.

Megan Conner [00:13:31] Well, I think I'm mostly unrelieved and grateful. Grateful to see justice done. It's. It's been a very emotional week for me. A lot of. A lot of mixed feelings about this moment, anticipating this moment, hoping that I would have a little bit more time to prepare for it, but also grateful that it's over, that this part of it is over. So

John Dehlin [00:14:11] thank you. Thank you for sharing and our. Our condolences to your entire family. Knowing that you, you know, spent summers with Lori growing up, that you were, you know, children and teenagers together. There's no. I. I imagine there's just no joy in a verdict like this.

Megan Conner [00:14:30] No, there's definitely no joy. But there is a sense of relief, a sense of. Of calm, of, you know, just gratitude that. That JJ and Tyler and Tammy are. Are getting the justice that they deserve. And I have a lot of mixed feelings about Alex not being there to receive some justice, too, but grateful that this is where we are with Lori right now. It's sad. It's heartbreaking. It's a tragedy. But I am really grateful.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Thank you, Megan. Gerardo, you attended university in Rexburg, where a lot of this happened. You've been following this case very closely. Would you like to share any reactions you have? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:28] So. Well, like Megan, I. I'm glad that justice has been served. You know, I'd been following the case from, from the beginning. And also, like, like you said, John, we've been covering Mormon stories, some of the highlights of the actual trial. And honestly, I, I think one of the things that we always mentioned was that Lori was not putting a real defense. But to be honest, I was a little surprised by the closing arguments on, by, by Lori's attorneys. I thought they did a really good job. They made some really good points that kind of made me nervous that it could suede. Uh, the verdict, uh, in, in Lori's favor. But thankfully the prosecution did a really good job. They were able to respond to some of the, of the things that Lori's attorneys brought up. And well, it seemed like, honestly, like, I, I'm, I'm glad the verdict came, uh, as. As fast as it did. And yeah, I mean, it's. It's nothing to be super happy about because there's the death of multiple people in this case. But, but I think we're all glad that justice has been served.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] Yeah. So a couple things that maybe. And we're hoping that Lauren Matthias from Hidden True Crime podcast will be able to join us in a bit. She's there at, you know, in the courtroom, and she was there live tweeting. We want to give a shout out to hidden true crime YouTube channel. They do great work. And Lauren has joined us on Mormon Stories multiple times as well. We hope Lauren will be joining us in a second. For those who are joining us late, the verdict with, with Lori Valow was guilty that I, I wrote down six accounts, six counts, and the counts were related to Ty Lee and, and Joshua Jackson and Tammy. There were, you know, there were conspiracy counts, and then there were theft counts as well. And it was unanimous. All the, all the jurors were unanimous, and it was guilty on all six counts, by my, by my count. Now, Gerardo, I remember talking to you just this past week, as you've been since we interviewed Megan. And I think, Gerardo, you weren't sure. You were a little bit unsure as to what the verdicts might be. Megan, as you followed this trial just this past week, did you get to hear the closing arguments? Megan?

Megan Conner [00:18:21] I did get to hear the closing arguments, and I was a little bit surprised like, Gerardo, like you were too, about some of the things that the defense attorney said during the closing arguments. But I, I was glad that they tried to do a good job of, you know, of, you know, presenting or trying to create some reasonable doubt. I think that's their job to do that. And so for that reason, I was a little bit concerned. I think a reasonable person can look at the evidence and see a lot of circumstantial things. You know, we talked about a lot of the evidence being, you know, difficult to really tie Lori to being there, and especially with Tammy. She wasn't there. She was in Hawaii. So. So I think there was some concern. I've been very concerned up until this moment, really just that. That. That some. Some count was going to go unanswered.

Prosecution and Defense Closing Arguments Summarized

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Could either of you do your best to kind of summarize what the prosecution's kind of main. Main themes or closing arguments were and then what the defenses were? Just. Just to kind of give people a sense. And Gerardo, this would allow you to talk about your concerns at least with. With maybe some of the ways the prosecution was. Was summarizing things.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:44] Yeah, I. I could go. And then. And then maybe. Maybe Megan can.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:50] Just fill in and in the gaps, but. Well, some of the argument. So this is something I heard from Nate Eaton from East Idaho News. And it seems like throughout the whole trial, Lori forbid her attorneys to pin the murders or the conspiracy to commit murder to Chad and Alex. And I think we've con. We commented on the several episodes that we did covering the trial that we didn't see a real strategy for the defense. So they were just asking questions of the witnesses that were not super leading. They. It was hard to see where they were going. But then in the closing arguments, you know, the defense attorney stood up, and that's.

Megan Conner [00:20:46] That.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:46] That was the strategy, basically pinning the murders on Chad and Alex. And we actually know that after the closing arguments of the defense attorney, they had a lunch break. And when they came back, Lori was really, really upset at her attorneys for, you know, blaming Chad and Alex for the murders. But some of the things that. That if you remember the. The prosecution brought three points at the beginning of the trial. On the opening statements, they said, this case is about sex, power, and money. And on the. On their closing arguments, they kind of brought that back, and they said, this is why Lori did this murders. This is why she committed. This is why she conspired to commit murders, because she wanted power, she wanted money, and she wanted sex. And. And that's how kind of how they framed it. And I thought the strategy of the defense attorneys was to kind of debunk that idea also by saying things like, well, Lori's husband, Charles Vallow, was making almost half a million dollars a year, and why would she. If she was after money, why would she be leaving him? Leaving him for. For Chad, who was, you know, a guy who could barely sell this stupid books. And I think he used this. The word stupid books. And he, you know, that Carly made $30,000 a year. That makes no sense. So this argument that Lori was doing it for money makes. Makes no sense at all. He also compared the attractiveness of Chad Ballow and. And Chad Daybell and, you know, saying, like, Chad's not, you know, super attractive. It doesn't make sense that what she wants to do is have sex. So I think. I think the prosecution did a really good job. But I did. I did find that maybe they were. Their arguments lacked a little bit of nuance.

Guest [00:22:56] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:57] And that's. Those were the holes that the defense attorneys were able to kind of make at their arguments. But I'm curious to. To. To hear what Megan has to say about her thoughts on that.

Megan Conner [00:23:10] Yeah, I think you're right, Gerardo. I think that that was pretty much the only tactic that the defense team could take. I think throughout the trial, they did not necessarily poke holes in everything that they could have, and they didn't necessarily respond the way that I would have responded. And, you know, trying to cross examine it. I'm not an attorney, but especially with things like the hair found on the duct tape, you know, those things didn't really come out until closing arguments. And I think they. They did try to take. The only tactic that they could was to say, you know, Charles made more money than Chad. He was more attractive than Chad. And so, you know, those things don't really come into play. But they. They left out kind of the power part of it. You know, she might have been married to somebody who was making more money, but she didn't have any control over that money. So those are just kind of the. The thoughts that came into my head is, you know, thinking about every aspect of why, you know, why she did this and. And why Chad did this, and grateful, too, that they, you know, that I thought the prosecution did a good job of pointing out that, you know, all of this got started, you know, after she met Chad. However, she was the thread that connected all of these people together and all of these circumstances together. And she was the go between Chad and Alex, and she was the one who was giving instructions. So I. I thought they did a good job of pointing that out.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:50] Yeah, for.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] You know, I'll admit that this is. This is a story I haven't followed as closely as you all have. So maybe I'm representing those who are tuning into the story a little bit late. But I'll ask those who are really followers of this case for their forgiveness, for. For the kind of the basic questions that I ask. But when you. When you think about, you know, Mormon stories, what we've wanted to try and cover is the Mormon angle to all this. And if there's a Mormon angle, if the. If the Mormon angle is even relevant. You know, Gerardo, when you. When you mention the. The prosecution's angle of reducing this to sex, power, and money, obviously what we're leaving off there is faith, right? Or religion. Because, you know, those who. Those who maybe see Laurie as a victim or. Or want to see Lori as a victim or don't want to believe that a mother could ever do this to her kids, to. To the wife or ex wife of her lover, to her former husbands, which I guess weren't part of this. But. But for those who don't want to believe Laurie could do this, maybe the narrative would be that Chad. Chad duped her using faith. Whether Chad was sincere or not, you know, there's no way for us to know. But what seems like a very plausible and reasonable interpretation of this is that Chad claimed to have special powers. He claimed to have connection with the divine. He claimed to be able to see into the spiritual world, to detect people's past lives, their past names, to know what people did in their former lives, and to also talk about the present and the future. To forecast the future. To predict the future as a prophet, seer, and revelator. Honestly, much like Joseph Smith, you could. There's a narrative here that basically, Chad Dabel took pages, many, many pages out of Joseph Smith's playbook. And orthodox Mormons might get angry to hear that said, but you'd have to go back to some of our past episodes where we show the parallels between Joseph Smith and Chad to sort of like, to really drive home the fact that this is what happens when. When a man in authority starts claiming special powers, people can become duped and deceived and misled. So I guess what I'm asking is when the prosecution reduces it to sex, power, and money, they're leaving off faith and religion. I guess the first question I have is Megan first, and then Gerardo, can you theorize as to why you would guess the prosecution left faith and religion off. When was it not maybe good for their case to add faith and religion, and then, Gerardo, you'll go next?

Religion and Faith as a Defense Strategy

Megan Conner [00:27:44] Yeah. Yeah. I really think that the prosecution did a good job of saying in their closing Arguments. They wanted to be clear that nobody is being prosecuted for their religious beliefs. They're being prosecuted for using those religious beliefs to harm other people. And so I think was smart of them to do that because they've got jurors on the panel who are potentially faithful members of the. Of the LDS Church, and they've got a community where that's the case, certainly. And I think the prosecution didn't want to appear as though they were condemning Lori for her religious beliefs, just. Just the implementation of those beliefs in harmful practices. I think that was really smart of them. I do think that what you're saying, John, is. Is really correct, is when you have somebody who's claiming to have special connection with deity or claiming to have special spiritual powers or connections that other people don't have. I think among faithful people who want to believe in. In spiritual power, and especially in personal spiritual power power and personal revelation, you've got a community of people that already believe those things. And to want to take it one step further is really tempting. It's really tempting to want to believe that maybe you could have a special connection that someone else doesn't have, or maybe you could get revelation or special insights that other people don't have. So I think it's. It's a really slippery slope and. And this is why we find ourselves here where we are.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Gerardo, what are your. What are your reactions to Megan and to. To my question?

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:32] Yeah, I totally agree. I would also say that bringing the religious aspect into. Into. Into the case, you know, if the prosecution had. Had added the real, you know, faith as. As their fourth item on the list of sex, power, money, I think it kind of gives Lorian out. And maybe that's why also they avoided that because, you know, part of the defense argument was, well, Chad told Lori or, or Chad could have made Lori believed that her kids were safe, you know, either. Maybe he didn't say this, but maybe they were translated. When you're. When you're believing, you know, that there's zombies, that there's buildings that other people can't see, but they're there. When you're believing that, you know, Jesus Christ and Moroni sealed. Sealed you. Sealed you. You're and your husband in the temple and all these crazy things, it's not a stretch to also believe that your kids were taken by Jesus or, and. And Chad could have made her believe that. And, you know, she was following Chad, and Chad was the one who introduced all this real crazy religious concepts to. To Lori. So it Kind of gives her an out, to be honest. And maybe that's why the prosecution didn't bring. Didn't point that out as much, because you could. You could say, well, Lori didn't know that her. And this is what they. I mean, the defense said Lori didn't know that her kids were in the. Back in Chad's backyard. You know, she. She believed that they were happy and safe. And that's what she told people.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] Yeah. And that's what. Gerardo, you and I had to talk about this. I. I thought, okay, Gerardo, if you're nervous that maybe Laurie won't be convicted, what's the scenario? What's the theorized scenario where Lori actually isn't guilty? Is it possible it's just Chad and Alex and Laurie was just trusting and naive, Maybe neglectful, Maybe some sort of manslaughter charge of, like, neglect of children or, you know, dereliction of duty as a parent, but stopping short of actually murder. And I guess. I guess it would be that. That when. You know, that the. Chad and Alex would have just told Lori, let us take care of. Of. Of Josh, of Joshua. Let us take care of Ty Lee. We'll take them to a safe place. You won't have to worry about it. You've got more important things to do. And that in her mind, Chad. Chad and. Or Alex were just like taking them to a ranch somewhere, taking them to some loving people, taking them maybe to trusted family members. Like, I'm trying to imagine a scenario where a mother who's a guardian over her two children, who, by all accounts, a mother who loved her children, by the way. What. What is the scenario where a mother would release her minor children into the custody of someone else and then maybe not ask questions?

Guest [00:32:56] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] And also allow that to happen for weeks or months where she doesn't know where they are? I guess the question is, what's the scenario where that could even be possible? Megan, maybe you can start, and then, Gerardo, you can jump in.

Megan Conner [00:33:10] Yeah, I'm trying to kind of go through the mental gymnastics that would have had to take place in order for Lori to hand her children over to Alex and Chad and believe that they were safe. I think once Chad introduced this concept of light and dark, and once you go dark, it means you've been possessed by a demon. And the only way to get the demon out is to do these castings. But even if the casting is successful, the implication, though it may not have ever been overtly said, the implication is that if the evil spirit is cast out it means that the person's true spirit is already gone. And so there's no. If you think that through logically, according to Chad's beliefs, once a person has gone dark, they're as good as dead. And I think that's. That's where you have a difficulty. But, Gerardo, you did bring up a really good point in that if they had gone down the road, if the prosecution had gone down the road of trying to indict her for her religious beliefs, then we have a scenario where she can plausibly say, well, Chad said my children went dark, so I gave them to him to take care of because he said that he could help them get rid of the dark spirits. And so I just believe that he took care of him. So I think that would have been dangerous for the prosecution to go down that road.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:29] Right, right. And, you know, John, you brought up this scenario of, like, you can't see a mother giving away their, you know, her children to. To other people and not know about them for months. But, like, we know that FLDS people do that all the time. You know, we saw the Netflix documentary called Keep a Sweet, Pray and Obey. And, you know, and we. We see stories of. Of these mothers who are told, you know, by their leaders. You have to let your little children go to this other state, this other place that you don't know where it is. They're going to be saved, they're going to be raised, and. And, you know, and they go about years without knowing about them. So it. It happens. And ironically, it happens in a Mormon religious context. But. Yeah. What are your thoughts, John?

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Yeah, well, it's. I guess. I guess anything's possible that, you know, as I considered the idea of letting my kids. Letting someone else have my kids for weeks or how long was it total where the. The kids would have been out of Lori's custody before she was abducted. Do either of you know if we're

Megan Conner [00:35:45] going down this scenario where I would have handed her kids over as soon as they were dark, you know, it would have been September. Would have been early. Early September, late August at the first, according to the text messages, late August would have been the time frame. And then, I don't know when. You know, when would she have expected to see a result of some kind or to get them back?

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:10] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:36:12] Yeah. So. So does that. A few months. She was abducted. When. When was she.

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:18] She was arrested in February 20th.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Okay, so that would be three, four, five months. Is. Is that right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:36:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] I mean, there's just no way on Earth. Like, even if she was sincerely believing in, in Chad and, and, and, and in Alex, that's dereliction of. That's just like neglect of children. That's kind of beyond any reason. She almost deserves to be incarcerated. I, I'm just speaking without any legal experience or knowledge. But yeah, if you, if you just let someone take your kids for three, four, five months and then you're off to Hawaii after your, your lover's wife just mysteriously died and then getting married within a few weeks, all while your kids are completely missing and you don't know where they are. I mean, I mean, I'm stating the obvious here, but I guess that just strains any possible credulity.

Megan Conner [00:37:14] Yeah. If you're thinking about it from a legal standpoint and from a parent, you know, the, the legal definition of care for your child, the only people who had legal authority to care for JJ would have been Lori, and in her absence would have been K. Possibly. And so we know JJ wasn't with K. And if Lori was in Hawaii, then at the very least, that's abandonment. It's child abandonment. And that's a, That's a punishable offense also. And so I think that's where they finally arrived at asking her to produce her children, because nobody could account for who was, who's caring for these children if you're, if their mother isn't caring for them.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Yeah. The, the next. Another question I have relates to religious belief defense, because on the one hand, the, the prosecution doesn't want to alienate LDS jurors, doesn't want to run afoul of the First Amendment, if I'm even remembering my Constitution. Right. Wants to avoid religion being a part of this. But if I'm the defense, you know, sometimes there are religious protections. And so just like there's an insanity plea where you, you can basically say, hey, you know, innocent by, by reason of insanity. What if Laurie just really, really had the type of absolute faith that many Mormons have in the prophet Joseph Smith, that many Mormons have in the prophet Russell M. Nelson today? And what if. What if she's protected by deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs, that she believed that God was working through Chad and God was working through Alex, and that just like Mormons are encouraged to follow the prophet and obey the prophet, she felt the Holy Ghost tell her to follow Chad, follow Heavenly Father and Jesus through Chad, and trust that her kids would be taken care of? I guess another question that I have is why isn't that if there are religious protections on other grounds why wouldn't that be a reasonable claim on Lori's part to just say, you can't. I just trusted Chad and Alex. I don't know what they did with my kids, but it's my deeply held religious beliefs that God told me to entrust my kids to them. And whether or not it turned out well for them, I was just doing. I was just. I was just following my religious beliefs. Do either of you have thoughts on that?

Megan Conner [00:39:53] Yeah, for sure. I think that's an. It's an interesting take and it's one that if I were on the defense team, that's probably the road I might have tried to go. Go down. And maybe they will try to go down that road in appeal, because I'm sure they're going to appeal. But. But that would have required them to, I think, call Lori? Lori would have had to be allowed to testify, which means exposing her to possibly really damaging cross examination. And then in addition to that, you have to produce other witnesses who were true believers. And we already had Melanie Gibbs saying, well, she didn't really believe it all the way. We have some of the other followers saying they didn't really believe it all the way. You know, somewhat up to a point or up to a certain amount of time and then not. So it would have been pretty problematic for the defense to try and call those people and get them to say that they truly believed all the way, that the children were safe and Chad was just taking care of them somehow, because that was never really discussed either.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:54] You know what's interesting? I know it's maybe not totally related to what you're saying, Megan, but. But it did remind me of when the defense. I can't remember exactly what witness it was, but it might be one of the chat's neighbors. When they start, she, she tried to claim, you know, I'm mainstream believer, but, you know, I did kind of follow Lori to wherever she went. Apparently this was a very close friend of Lori's. And, and then, and then in cross examination, you know, like the defense attorney started asking her about mainstream beliefs. I'm not exactly sure some of the questions. I remember the one about Missouri, like, they believe that, that Jesus Christ is going to come back in Missouri and that. Is that why you moved there? You know, and then she's like, well, that's a mainstream LDS belief. So there I could see in some way the defense attorney is trying to say, well, it's not just Chad and Lori's crazy beliefs. The LDS Church has its own. You know, and then when It's. You know, Chad might have added some sprinkles to it, but that was a really interesting take as well. You know, this. Trying to show that, well, LDS members, you know, all these people that are testifying. Melanie, give David, all these people, like, they still have pretty crazy beliefs, you know, that the Garden Eden was in Jackson, Missouri, and that The Earth is 6,000 years old, like, that kind of stuff. But, yeah, just really, really interesting. And like you said, Megan, it could be the way they. They try to apply for, you know, submit an appeal to. To the decision.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:41] Thoughts, John?

John Dehlin [00:42:42] No, I just. I guess I just look at the fact that there was so little evidence that I. That I recall directly implicating Lori, other than the hair, which I remember when that was announced, that some hair was found with the tape with one of the children. Is that right? Some of Lori's hair. Like, if you're. If he's in her house. Hair. Hair gets all over everyone's house. And so that just didn't seem very promising. But as I understand it, there was no text messages or emails or, you know, even testimony where Lori's saying, you know, go kill my kids or go take my kids to their heavenly father, or, you know, my kids are dark and, you know, they need to go meet their heavenly father was there. You know, not. Not to mention her cell phone pings or anything that could put her at the actual. You know, at the actual murders of. Of certainly. You know, of. Certainly not Tammy, but potentially not even of Joshua Jackson or Ty Lee. And so I just. I. I was worried with you, Gerardo. Like, what evidence are they using? Like, why would the jury come back with six unanimously, with six guilty verdicts, without any direct evidence that really, really shows Lori's involvement in the murders or even conspiracy in the murders? Did you guys get a sense of the evidence that. I mean, you both feel like maybe justice was served today? I guess I would ask you both, upon what evidence do you have? Do you have that feeling, Megan, maybe you want to go first? Or do you want to go first? Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:32] We can. Let me again.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] Okay.

Megan Conner [00:44:34] I think there were a couple of texts that were particularly damning. One was Lori asking Chad if there was a plan for the children, if there was a plan to eliminate the obstacles, essentially. And I don't. Forgive me for not remembering the exact wording right now, but I remember that text seemed to be the only one that concretely said that there was a particular plan. There were several texts that were exchanged between Chad and Laurie about Lori being Impatient that Chad was not taking care of Tammy quickly enough, that they were not able to be together quickly enough. So, again, kind of circumstantial things that the defense could have poked holes in but chose not to and just didn't, you know, didn't do anything to really refute what was being implied by the prosecution. That those texts of impatience and of asking for plans and of being anxious that the children were.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] So Megan's froze for just a second. I'll just say while. While me. Megan's coming back, there's a lot of people expressing anger at me that, That I didn't watch the trial. Y' all must have joined late because I gave, as a stipulation up front, I haven't been following this trial and as much as Gerardo and Megan have. But I'm asking this question on behalf of myself, but also of the viewers and listeners who haven't really been following this closely but wanted to understand the verdict. So those of you who are frustrated that I didn't watch all of the trial or listen to all the trial in the hearings, I hope you can understand that, you know, that not everyone was able to, but it's still worth discussing for those who weren't. So, Megan, you. You dropped off for a second. So now that you're back, do you. Do you mind kind of backing up and finishing what you're saying to the best of your ability?

Megan Conner Joins the Conversation

Megan Conner [00:46:36] Sure. I don't. I don't know what. At what point that I dropped off.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:40] You were talking about the texts. The text about the obstacles.

Megan Conner [00:46:45] Right. And. And Lori being impatient about the fact that the children weren't being coded dark quickly enough. There was one particular one where. Where she asked about JJ's rating. Chad answered that it was a 2, and she said, not a 0 yet. You know, and then Chad made some kind of a comment about, you know, that the. The kids were getting dark. And. And Lori said, that's sweet. And then something else. She was responding to something else he said that was sweet. But the prosecutions assertion at that point was why was she not saying or being upset about her kids being dark or saying, please help me get my kids back to light, or please, like, let's not hurt the children. Let's find a way to help the children. There was nothing like that. And I think that was part of why people were able to see that she was. She wanted the kids to be dark and she wanted to have a plan.

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:47] Yeah. And also the text about. Between Alex and Lori about the WI FI password seemed to Be pretty damning, you know, when Alex sets the. Sets the password. The WI FI password. Well, the WI Fi name to be anti layman and the. And the password to be too Many Kids.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:09] And Lori responds funny. So. So, you know, a lot of circumstantial evidence. The. For sure. Like John said, there's no text that says, when are you gonna kill the kids? Let's kill the kids. You know, let's get rid of them or anything about Lori. But. But the prosecution, I thought they did a really good job at saying, you know, Lori is manipulating Chad through, you know, sex to. To get Chad to do what she wants. And, you know, and again, her defense was like the opposite, saying, well, Chad was controlling Lori, you know, so the. I think arguments could be made both ways. You know, playing devil's advocate, you can say, you know, when she's. When she's texting Chad about the. The children's ratings, she could be believing, you know, well, my kids are gone. They're in. In heaven with heavenly Father. So I just want to get rid of these zombies or these demons that are inhabiting. Inhabiting their bodies. So if. If there's a strong belief that these are not her actual children, you know, I mean, that. That could explain why she was eager to. For them to be, you know, gone. But just like Jesus, like, I think the defense attorneys brought up, you know, just like Jesus removed, um, bad spirits from. From. From people in. In. In the New Testament. So, yeah, I mean, John, just responding your question, I think there was a lot of circumstantial evidence, no direct evidence. But at the end, the ver. I. I think people that have been following the case from the very beginning, you know, that saw Lori in Hawaii getting married, that saw her on the interviews, you know, not wanting to respond, where her kids were being super evasive. I think we all knew, you know, she has to be guilty, I think. But. But our worries were about the jury who supposedly didn't know much about the case, didn't follow it at all, and, you know, that's what it was supposed to be. And all the evidence they had was what was presented during the trial. So we were worried is this evidence going to be enough for the. For the jury to convict her. And, you know, I. I think we got our answer today. But. But yeah, yeah,

John Dehlin [00:50:37] I guess. I guess I'll say this that in addition to, you know, the length of time that we've already referenced, that she's willing to go just not having her kids around and, and allegedly not knowing where they were three to five months or whatever it was, you would think that if she was facing potentially, you know, life in prison, is it right that the death penalty is off the table? Gerardo and Megan?

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] Okay. The death penalty is off the table. So she's facing life in prison. And if she really loved her kids and cared about them, or let's just say this, if she didn't want them dead, I. What occurs to me is she would have taken the stand and she would have said exactly what happened, where she was, what she thought was going on, why she was okay without her kids for months at a time, and kind of explained it. All right. I guess there's a legal construct that silence doesn't. You need to be proven guilty, innocent until proven guilty. And silence doesn't necessarily prove guilt. But in my skeptical mind, someone who hasn't been following this case as closely, the fact that she stayed silent seems to point to guilt. Megan, what do you think? Does that. Does that make sense to you?

Megan Conner [00:52:00] Yeah, definitely. I think if she had a plausible explanation or if she really did trust Chad and believe everything that he was saying, that she would have come forward and said that. You know, and again, I have to keep saying, though, I know her attorneys probably didn't want her to testify because then she gets exposed to cross examination, and that's problematic on a number of levels. But I do think that somebody innocent would have at least made some kind of an effort to allow the defense attorneys to say, you know, this is my side of the story.

Guest 2 [00:52:33] Right?

John Dehlin [00:52:33] Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Megan, please.

Megan Conner [00:52:36] I just have. I have a question for you, John, because Gerardo brought up the. The WI FI network and the WI FI password word, and I thought it was interesting that it was the WI FI network was anti Layman. And so for true believing Mormon members, Layman was one of the bad kids. Right? He kind of went against his brother, the prophet, or, you know, who was righteous. But later in the Book of Mormon, we have a group of people called the Anti Nephi Lehigh.

Guest 2 [00:53:05] And we're.

Megan Conner [00:53:06] We're led to believe that the word anti at that time meant to be like. It was. These people wanted to be like Nephi and Lehi. So when the WI FI password comes up or the network comes up as anti Layman. What's your take on that, John? What do you think,

John Dehlin [00:53:23] man? I. I have to just admit I have no idea. I really don't. I want to come up with something clever, deep, or meaningful. You know, obviously, Layman was the chief bad guy. In the early part of the Book of Mormon, other than Laban. Laban, you know, got his head chopped off by Nephi, by like the third chapter of first Nephi because he was holding the brass plates and. And God felt like it's. It's okay, you know, it's necessary that. That one man perish so such that a nation doesn't dwindle. Unbelief. And that's where the Book of Mormon sanctions murder based on the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. You know, three chapters in which is one of those troubling and disturbing things about the Book of Mormon, and I think a verse in a passage that's been used to justify not a few instances of murder over the past 200 years. If you study Mormon history and all its different flavors, but that's Labin with a B. And Layman was Nephi's brother. And he simply. He, along with his brother Lemuel were just two less righteous, unrighteous brothers that kind of murmured and didn't like, you know, were jealous of Nephi. And they end up becoming the leaders of what end up being the Lamanites, which are the, you know, the. The ancestors of the. Of current Native Americans, allegedly, that were. Whose skin was turned dark because of their wickedness. But there's no death penalty there. Right? There's just, oh, you guys weren't as righteous, but. But you're also the pure blood of Israel, and someday you're all going to be redeemed. So layman, sure, he isn't the. The greatest character in the Book of Mormon, but there's nothing about the word Layman that that means murder or death. You know, from my understanding of the Book of Mormon, Gerardo, you probably thought about this more than me.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:16] I mean, he does mean dark, Right?

John Dehlin [00:55:18] Right. Dark skin.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] Or dark spirit. Spirit, I guess spiritually dark, you could say.

Guest [00:55:24] Right, right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:24] And that's the kind of wording that Chad was using to, you know, say these people are this dark and this scale. Yeah, you know, there's that, but, yeah, those. Those are my thoughts about that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] Yeah. So it could be. It could be against darkness. Right. And some of these spirits, you know, were dark, and so it could be against darkness. So. Megan, I'm sorry, I don't have anything more.

Megan Conner [00:55:52] Just curious.

John Dehlin [00:55:53] Yeah, I. I will say. I was going to say that. That regarding. Well, regarding belief, when we talk about Lori potentially trusting Chad and. And Alex, you know, I don't know, it just. I. I guess what I'll say is this. That is. It is it possible for both of you that Lori sincerely held these religious beliefs. Like, we know that. We know that the Book of Mormon sanctions murder. The Old Testament sanctions murder when God or the Spirit calls on it, whether it's the Philistines or the Israelites murdering, you know, tribes in the Old Testament that, that weren't. Weren't part of the chosen people, whether it's God murdering, you know, the, the. The people who lived during the time of Noah, all the, all the children and men, women and children who are on the earth again, the Israelites and their war and murder that was justified to then, you know, kind of the Book of Mormon murders that go on like it can be conceived as a sincerely held belief that murder, if the Holy Ghost tells you is okay, is okay. There's Joseph Smith. We've talked about the Happiness Letter where Joseph Smith himself is trying to convince, I believe it was Nancy Rigdon, a teenage girl, the daughter of one of his closest allies. He's trying to convince Nancy Rigdon to become his. One of his, you know, 35 plural wives so that he could have sex with her. And he basically says in the Happiness Letter, what's wrong in one circumstance is right in another. So there. And we all know about the Danites and the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the Lafferty brothers and all the different people that have interpreted their Mormonism sincerely as justifying murder. And I guess I do have a question for you both that's impossible to know. Is it possible that whether or not she's found guilty, that Laurie literally believed that her children were dark, were possessed by demons, that their spirits, this idea of spirits possessing bodies, that's as Mormon as anything is ever Mormon. And that Lori just sincerely believed that. That JJ and Ty Lee's spirits had gone on to heaven, that their bodies were simply possessed by demonic spirits and that it wasn't murder to have them, you know, those bodies disposed with. And to have those evil demons cast out. Is it possible that Lori sincerely believed that her kids weren't being murdered? I'll ask you, Megan, and then Gerardo and, And we'll. Yeah, go ahead and unmute yourself.

Did Lori Sincerely Believe Her Own Ideology

Megan Conner [00:58:48] Me? Yeah. I. I think it's the only way that I can wrap my brain around everything that happened is to. Is to come to the conclusion that Lori really did believe what Chad said, that she believed that she was a goddess, that she was above the law, she was above reproach because she was doing the Lord's work in some way, that she was gathering the 100, and that one of her missions was to get rid of all the zombies on the earth. The scary thing is that they said there was something like 20 or 30, 000 zombies that needed to be eliminated before Christ could come. And I think she must have really believed that her children had turned dark in order to get to the point where she, as a mother, could allow that to happen or be. Or participate in that happening. I think it's incredibly sad and horrific and horrible that she really believed that that was true. But that's the only way that I can really begin to understand how you get to that point as a mother.

John Dehlin [00:59:59] So you're saying you do believe that these were sincerely held religious beliefs by Lori?

Megan Conner [01:00:03] Yeah, but I think you have to. You have to understand that there's a healthy dose of delusion in the there. I think the delusion that she really wanted to believe was that she was a goddess and that she was really special and instrumental. And, you know, she did tell Chad and some of her other. Sorry, Charles and some of her other family members that she believed she was a translated being that she didn't need to eat anymore, she didn't need to sleep very much. It was scary.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Yeah. Really quickly, I'm going to share some. Some of the comments. And then, Gerardo, I want to hear from you. But one of the comments says, this is from Colette. She writes, john is a possible. Lori believed that, yes, but all the secrets, infidelity, money, power grab, et cetera, I don't buy that she really believed it. Like, on the one hand, Colette, I think you make a good point. On the other hand, if we're going to talk about how Mormon is this case secrets and infidelity or sexual openness and money and power grabs? The Mormon church is a $250 billion organization. Joseph Smith lied about marrying at least 35 women to his own wife, to the general public around him, and. And that spiritual wifery or celestial marriage or the new and everlasting covenant was all justified by Joseph Smith and by Brigham Young and by Mormon leaders from 1940, let's just say all the way to 1890. Or if you want to count, you know, 1900 to 1910, depending on whether you're talking about the first or the second manifesto, like secrets and progressive spiritual sexuality and money and power grabs. I don't know what's more Mormon than that. Gerardo, Am I being unfair to Mormonism to say that Laurie can still be about secrets and sex and money and power, but still do it from a sincere Mormon perspective?

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:05] Yeah, I. I Think I totally agree. My, my thoughts on this was that I think something I've learned from you know, studying Mormonism in the past few years and you know, hearing about Mormons experiences and people who leave the church is that people are inclined to believe something that's going to benefit them and something, and, and people, you know, something that's good for them, they're more inclined to believe it. So for example, when missionary, more Mormon missionaries go out on the streets and look for people to convert into Mormonism, one of their, one, one of the guidelines on the Preach My Gospel manual that missionaries use specifically says that missionaries should look for people that had a recent death on the family that had, you know, that recently moved and maybe don't have a lot of friends in the area. And you, you know, you have to wonder why, why would the Mormon Church encourage missionaries to look for people like this to join the Mormon Church? I think the answer is that these kind of people with struggles in their lives at the moment are more inclined to believe in the LDS beliefs. You know, that there is an afterlife that they're going to be able to live with their family forever. You know, that there is a community close to them that they can be part of because they recently moved to the area. You know, if they had a re recently born baby that they're going to be able to be with him or her forever in the eternity. So all this. So again I think people are inclined to believe things that are going to benefit them and I think we see it in all aspects of Mormonism as well. You know, we see it in patriarchal blessings where people, things that the patriarchal blessings say they're more inclined to believe it and, and you know, look for things that happen in their life to say oh he, here is where my patriarchal blessing is being fulfilled. You know, and you, we see it in also the kind of people that you know, have comprised Mormonism for a very long time. You know, they're tend to, the Mormonism works best for people who are heterosexual cisgender and, and white because you know, Mormonism was made for them. And you know, that that's why, maybe that's why a lot of people like this are more inclined to stay in Mormonism because it benefits them, they want to believe in. Doesn't mean that they don't believe it or that they're faking it, you know, but I, I think they're more inclined to believe it. And then you know, when for example there's a family that are very active LDs and then there's a gay person in the family, like a child. They're maybe more inclined to start questioning their beliefs because maybe, you know, the church doesn't fulfill their. Their needs or, you know, their circumstances as well. So. So, you know, tying it back to Lori Valo, there's a lot of things on disbeliefs that, that Chad brought, you know, or, or made her believe that we're gonna benefit her. You know, she was gonna be able to live with Chad without the obstacles of the children. She's gonna be able to claim all the life insurances, you know, the money part. So I, I think to me, for me, it's hard to say. Well, because she lied, because she did all these things, it, you know, she didn't really believe that. I think because it benefited her, she was more inclined to believe it. And my, my. I think it's kind of like a pious fraud kind of, kind of case with Lori Valoise. Just like you mentioned, John, with, with Joseph Smith. We see, we see him lying. We see him, you know, hiding things from his wife and the general membership and yeah, you know, stuff like that.

Megan Conner [01:06:00] Just to, to bring you up to speed a little bit too. I see that side of it too, Gerardo, for sure, where we saw these couple of text messages from Lori where she, she texted Chad and she says that Tyler is cleaning her room and being super sweet. And that's not like her. So can you check her rating?

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:19] Right.

Megan Conner [01:06:19] And then we see where, you know, Tyler's or JJ's misbehaving. And so can you check his rating? Is he darker now? And, you know, wanting to, to blame perfectly normal teenager and child behavior on a dark or a light rating, you know, and it, and so it seems like from that standpoint, it certainly is a cop out to say, you know, these kids are bugging me. Are they zombies yet? Let's get rid of them. And that's. That's the sick part of it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:49] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:06:51] so. So that, that's. You guys have given really good analysis and I really appreciate helping me and those who are less familiar with this case kind of understand more about it. I will say on the flip side, like how in the, you know, one. One really compelling argument that both Chad and Lori were sincere is how in the world did Chad and Lori think that they were going to go to Hawaii? Lori would just go there, having no idea where her children were, that they're going to go there for months or longer, that, that, you know, all the different extended family members were never going to ask what happened to JJ and Ty Lee that, that Chad would get married to Lori within how many, how much time of Tammy's death?

Megan Conner [01:07:45] Like, two weeks.

John Dehlin [01:07:47] Two weeks that, that they would get married within two weeks of Tammy's mysterious death. Within, you know, months of Alex's death. Within, within months, you know, of the, of the children's death. How did they think that somehow they were going to go to Hawaii, get married and that, that this wasn't going to catch up with them? Like, it obviously was going to catch up with them. It was just way too conspicuous. So again, for me, that's an argument that they really believed. Just like many people, like preppers, like this, all this is a prepper story. And what I mean by prepper is the Mormon Church is like many religions. Well, it's like many Christian religions, but specifically like many religions that were forged in the United states in the 19th century, like to Jehovah's Witnesses and others. It's a millennialistic Christian religion believing that Jesus will come any day. That's why the church, the Mormon Church is really called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which means Jesus is coming any day. And so it would make all the sense in the world as an explanation for how they thought they were going to run away to Hawaii and have all this murder or killing not catch up to them, is if they really believed that any day now Jesus was going to come, the second coming was going to start, they would be called up as Jesus, I don't know, right hand man and woman to do whatever Jesus does when he comes again, whether it's through to kill all the wicked or, you know, to send plagues, to kill all the unrighteous or to raise and resurrect all the righteous Mormons. You know, whatever it is, it's absolutely a Mormon belief that Jesus is coming any day and that the righteous are going to help Jesus with the resurrection. And for me, that's an explanation for how, you know, they could feel like they could run away to Hawaii and get away with it. And, and it allows for sincere belief. Megan, does that sound too, too crazy for you or does that make sense to you? Megan? And it looks like, oh, yeah, go ahead, Megan, go ahead and unmute yourself if you can. And, and actually, Megan's Megan drops. So, Gerardo, why don't you give an answer to that and we'll come back with Megan.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:10] Yeah, I totally agree with you, John. And I also, I would add to all the list of, of items that you brought up is that, that Lori didn't let her attorneys to bring a good defense. She didn't allow them to pin the murders on Chad or Alex. She didn't bring. She didn't allow them to really, you know, bring a really strong strategy until the very end when, when, you know, as far as the information we have is that the, the attorney kind of went rogue a little bit without Larry's authorization with those closing arguments. But, but yeah, it totally makes sense that Lori truly believed even to this point, that she was gonna still be protected by God, that God was gonna give, you know, free her from a guilty verdict and maybe totally confident. Maybe that's why also she didn't take the stand and all the lists that you gave John and you know, and, and the end of days. I mean, that just reminds me a little bit to, you know, the relationship that orthodox members of the church or believing members of the church tend to have with conservative conservationism, you know, like conserving water or taking care of the environment. We know that a lot of orthodox members of the church don't really care about that topic. You know, maybe they don't believe in climate change or, or, you know, that, that we're running out of water in Utah and Because, you know, the, the second coming might be anytime. Might. Might come anytime. And you know, Jesus is going to save us. We're righteous. It doesn't really matter.

Megan Conner [01:11:48] He.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:48] He gave us this earth for us to use it and you know, Jesus is going to save us at the end. So it kind of reminded me to that and yeah, I totally see it in, in, in Lori's and even Chad's demeanor. I'm going to Hawaii after all the murders. Not, you know, really believing that they were going to be saved from, from the police or, you know, everything. Megan, what, what do you think about that?

Megan Conner [01:12:12] Maybe you said this while my Internet was. Was buffering, but Lori did have a prediction that the end of the world was going to come in August of 2020. And you know, she was in jail by that time. And so, you know, I'm sure that contributed to a lot of. And the. They, you know, covered things up and, and hiding in Hawaii. You know, Lori cut off all her family. She turned off her. Her cell phone number, even cold not getting in touch with her. And so I, I think she really believed that she to find, like be tracked down. But I think it was also that belief that.

The Church's Response and Excommunication Questions

John Dehlin [01:13:01] Megan. I don't know if you can hear me, Megan, but your. Yeah, Megan's connection is, is struggling a little bit. Gerardo. I did get A text from Lauren Matthias from Hidden True Crime podcast that she may be joining us in the next little bit. So I want to at least give us a little bit of time to, to get Lauren's response. Megan, let's give you another try. We were having you cut in and out a little bit. Do you want to. And I would just start over from when you just came because your, your connection was super spotty. Megan, do you want to try again? Can you hear us, Megan? Okay, we're having some technical difficulties with Megan. Gerardo, do you wanted to. To jump in? Do you have a sense for what Megan was trying to say? And I'm not hearing you, Gerardo. You're muted as well.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:02] Okay, there we go. Sorry, I, I think Megan was just talking about what some of the things that I explained, you know, that we, we see her, Lori and Chad, you know, maybe a little bit careless on, on whether the police were going to track them down or not. And we also, I think she was mentioning that Lori had made a prediction of the end of the world on and when that was going to happen. And, you know, if you believe that the, that the earth is going to come to an end, maybe you're a little bit less worried that your doings are gonna come, you know, come bite you. But Megan, I, I see your back. Can you just tell us what you were saying about Lori's belief on the end of the world?

Megan Conner [01:14:55] Yeah, it's just that thought that when you think that the world is ending and that you're really doing something to hasten the, the coming forth of Jesus Christ and you think he's about to come and reward you for all of your good work, you know, whatever beliefs that you've justified up to that point or whatever actions you've justified up to that point, you know, are about to come to fruition. And so it's like, I mean, you can justify almost anything at that point if you think the world's going to end, right?

John Dehlin [01:15:25] Yeah. Yeah. That's dark. I just want to say something that I've said in, in previous episodes, but, you know, there was a comment that was made that I'll share. Jake Clark wrote, is your channel's main objective to take the Mormon Church down? I want to answer that really directly. I appreciate the question, Jake. I understand that for orthodox believing Mormons, any open discussion about Mormonism is going to be viewed as threatening. And especially anything that is negative or critical is going to be viewed as literally intending to destroy the Mormon Church or take it down. I'm going to say very specifically my role with Mormon stories, my intention with Mormon stories has never been to take the Mormon Church down. It's never even been to get people to leave the Mormon Church. That's, I just don't believe that's how faith, I don't believe faith works that way. I believe faith is resilient. If Chad and Laurie, if their story tells us anything, it's how resilient faith is. If faith is so resilient that you can end up murdering your spouse and children, you know, faith is more resilient than some podcaster doing a YouTube channel, you know, releasing some videos. So, so if our intent isn't to destroy Mormonism or to take people out of the church, what is our intent? Mormon stories, the intent has always been informed consent, as first and foremost, we want Mormons and, and people looking into Mormonism or learning about Mormonism to just see Mormonism as accurately and truthfully as possible. And then if there's, you know, a second motivation that I think is relevant here is we want to see the Mormon Church improve so that there's less pain and less suffering, less sadness within a Mormon context. We want the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, to do better. And so that's a lead into a point that I just want to make. You know, as someone who has watched over, over the last 30 years, liberal and progressive Mormons get, you know, be, be, be investigated by Mormon Church leaders, by top Mormon church leaders, as if the f. The church has its own FBI or CIA committees. The Mormon Church in fact, has a committee called the Strengthening the Members Committee where they investigate threats to the church. They keep files on people who are viewed as dissidents. And if they see anyone talking about whether maybe Joseph wasn't a prophet publicly or maybe the Book of Mormon wasn't a translation, or maybe they're questioning the Book of Abraham, or whether the Mormon Church is the one true church. Over the past 30 or 40 years, you could say even 50 or more, the Mormon Church keeps files on liberal and non believing, questioning Mormons, collects the files, sends those files to local bishops and stake presidents. And those members who are doubting and questioning the church have almost sometimes immediate disciplinary councils where in the case of hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, there have been excommunications. I myself, John Dehlin, was excommunicated by the Mormon Church in 2015 purely for advocating for LGBTQ rights publicly and for having this podcast and refusing to take it down when the actual content of the podcast was factual history, church history. And we've seen Jeremy Runnels and Bill Real and Natasha Helfer and Sam Young and Denver Snuffer. So many people get excommunicated by the Mormon Church in most of those instances for having, questioning or doubting or excessively liberal beliefs. What we have not seen in my opinion adequately is vigilance on the part of the Mormon Church that has been sufficient or adequate for the, for the conservative prepper fundamentalist wing. Because we all know that, that the preparing of people, the prepper groups that Chad Daybell and Julie Rowe and, and Lori and others were a part of, those groups were, were teaching fundamentalist doctrines for years and filling up the Rexburg Tabernacle with conference attendees. The church knew that Chad and, and Laurie and others were teaching these really unstable doctrines that were talking about the end times, making predictions. The church knew this. Local church leaders knew this. Area authorities knew this. General authorities knew this. And in my point of view, the Mormon Church was afraid to alienate the, the more fundamentalist, conservative, active, faithful members. And in that sense, they let all this, this preparing a people prepper movement go on way too long. And in that sense, you know, is it, is it true that Chad is a chatter Lori that still haven't been excommunicated yet? Do we know. Can you guys remind us as to the membership status of Chad and Lori and if they lost their membership when we think that actually happened, how late that happened?

Megan Conner [01:20:40] As far as I know, Chad was excommunicated when he was arrested and Lori has not yet been excommunicated. As far as far as I know, the last thing that I heard from a family member was that a bishop was visiting her in jail every week.

John Dehlin [01:20:57] Yeah. Gerardo, did you have anything you want to add to that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:01] That's my understanding as well. I didn't know that about the LDS bishop, but, but wow. Yeah, I, I, I think I totally agree with you, John. I totally agree that there hasn't been accountability on that part. You know, on the other side of the eye, which is, you know, the conservatives, extreme fundamentalists, extra beliefs kind of prepper kind of people. And it really, I think one of the things that made me mad at the trial the most, I mean, a lot of things, you know, there's the deaths of the children, which are horrifying, and Tammy and the pictures and all that. But probably on second place would be that all these testimonies of these people who claim to be mainstream LDs, and then on cross examination, it turns out that they are preaching in conferences about visions about, you know, Russia and China invading the US and you know, taking over the government in three days and this happening anytime soon. And the people are going to go out and live in tents and energy healings and all this stuff, you know, coming out later on cross examination. But they believe and they testify that their beliefs are purely mainstream lds. You know, you, you gotta wonder, you know, I think that's progressive. Most progressives are able to understand or admit that their understanding of the gospel or the way they see the gospel is not totally what the church preaches. But it is crazy to me to see this conservatives, you know, going up in court and testifying that their beliefs are purely mainstream and then later finding out that they're, you know, believing about visions and angels and all this crazy, you know, angels appearing in the temple and all this crazy stuff that definitely, I mean, I think a lot of people would say are definitely not mainstream. And I think comes, that comes back to what you're just saying, John, that the church is not coming after them, they're leaving them alone.

John Dehlin [01:23:11] Yeah, go ahead, Min. Were you add something?

Megan Conner [01:23:14] Yeah. What Gerardo's talking about specifically is David Warwick's testimony where he was one of the people in this, in this Chad Daybell group who came forward and said, I didn't really necessarily believe what Chad was teaching. But then on cross examination we find out that David Warwick is at these conferences preaching that he's had visions about the United States being sacrificed for a one world government and China and Russia inviting, invading the United States and being defeated in three days. So he claims that he didn't believe Chad, but yet he has all these other extreme beliefs and he claims that he's seeing visions for the end of times and for wars and things like that. So maybe to kind of put a cap on this, I would love it if now that Lori has been convicted, if she would be excommunicated and if the church would put out a statement that says, says that condemns the church of the firstborn, that condemns the teachings of Chad and Lori and that gives a warning of this is what can happen when you allow your beliefs to stray too far.

John Dehlin [01:24:15] Yeah. Because if you, if you come out in favor of same sex marriage, if you, if you choose, you know, gender, you know, life saving, gender transition surgery, if you, if you simply read the Book of Mormon and notice the anachronisms where horses and steel don't belong in Mesoamerica during the time of the Book of Mormon or you just learn about The DNA that Native Americans don't have, Israeli DNA. And if you learn these things or if you, in Natasha Helfer's case, if you just simply advocate for sexual health, or in Sam Young's case, you just try and keep bishops from asking 12 year old girls behind closed doors whether they touch themselves. Like in so many of those instances, you just speak out and within weeks you're excommunicated. But, but you can teach, you can teach people to buy, to spend their life savings to liquidate their 401ks, to buy tents, to buy trailers, to, you know, liquidate their life savings to buy food so that because Jesus is coming any day now, you can do all of that. You can teach that Jesus is coming any day now, which is possibly anti Mormon in the sense that Jesus himself said, no one knows when I'm coming. You can teach all of these crazy prepper end of time sort of doctrines and for the most part the church is going to leave you alone. And as people are telling us in the comments, Laurie, as far as we know, still hasn't been excommunicated. So I just think that's, that's a real problem there there. So anyway, a couple other comments that I think are, are worth mentioning here. The last goony writes, how about the church telling people in Rexburg not to participate in the trial or talk to the press? If we're talking about culpability, that's a big one, right? Like what is the Mormon Church? You would think that the Mormon Church would want just to, to be served. You would think that they would want, you know, there's an article of faith in the Mormon Church, we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates, in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law. Why in the world wouldn't the Mormon Church encourage bishops, stake presidents, elders, quorum presidents, relief society presidents, home teachers, visiting teachers, ministers and lay members to all actively talk to police, give any tips they know, talk to attorneys and provide any information that they can to help justice be served. Gerardo and Megan, do either of you have, you know, do you agree that this was a major bad act of the church to discourage members from engaging in this legal process very explicitly? Do you guys disagree with that?

Church Culpability and the Prepper Movement

Megan Conner [01:27:12] No, I, I think that that was egregious. But also the specific language of the letter that went out said that they wanted people to check with the church's law firm and to check with the church's attorneys before they engaged in the legal proceedings. That was the specific language that was used.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:30] I mean, just Outrageous. And, and I think we all know why, why this memo was sent out. You know, they didn't want people like David Warwick or Sulema going up there saying, I'm a mainstream believer, I believe in the Prophet, I only believe what the prophet teaches. And then finding out, oh, you know, this crazy Missouri Jesus coming to Jackson, Missouri and, and, and the Garden of Eden being there, you know, the church all hates. If there's one thing that the church hates is bad pr. And you know, these legal cases can bring those, those teachings that maybe the church is trying to put behind them or start or stop talking about him as much. Brought them back, bring them back into light. And you know, also they don't want to be held liable for, for any of the misdoings of their members.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] Yeah, yeah, that's just. And it really goes back to our polygamist days because when, you know, once Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy, was marrying sister pairs, mother, daughter pairs, 14 year old girls, he was lying about it, not just to his wife Emma, but to the general public, to church members, to many of his, his closest confidants. And then, you know, once Brigham Young took all the saints to Utah, the church hid and lied about its polygamy for half a century. So lying and secrecy are baked into Mormon culture. Gerardo, Megan, do you guys feel like that's unfair to kind of call out and basically a suspicion of the government, a hatred of the government, and a tendency to not want to participate willingly and actively with the government? That, that there's strains of that dynamic woven in deeply to Mormon history? Is that fair? Not fair?

Megan Conner [01:29:31] I, I agree totally. And we talked a little bit when I was with you in, in Salt Lake, John, about how the, the culture of shame and secrecy is, is created by the doctrine of the church and how certainly the, the culture of shame and secrecy, you know, leaked its way into our family system and is the system, system by which our family operates is that you don't talk about your mistakes, you, you cover up, you hide, you obfuscate, you, you know, you just, you don't talk about the things that you're doing wrong until everybody forgets about it. And then you say, oh, maybe I struggled with that at one point, but it's over. And you know, I really think our family system, Lori's family system is a microcosm of the church culture and you know, it's all baked into the, the origins of the church.

Guest [01:30:22] Right? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:24] And there's also, you know, like you said, John, the lying and hiding and the concept of lying for the Lord, I think that's a concept that's, you know, while not explicitly taught in Mormonism, is definitely there in our history. Members and missionaries all across the world are either taught or, you know, in some way encouraged to do this. You know, just a family member was on, on her mission recently, and when we were talking, I said, why don't you teach your investigators about this or that? And she's like, well, if I teach them that, then they won't join the church. So there's this, you know, idea of hiding things because maybe people won't understand the higher purpose. You know, we see that a lot in this case of Lori and Chad hiding things from people, lying to people. We have, you know, apostles and general authorities hiding the history, lying about the history of the church only to later come clean or semi clean after, you know, the Internet, you know, Democrat democratizes the history of the church. And so, yeah, just, just very interesting how we can see a lot of this, this themes, recurring, immoralism in the case.

John Dehlin [01:31:51] And, and the only other thing that I, I really want to maybe bring up as we talk about the culpability of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in all of this is the Mormon Church could, could kill and stamp out the, the prepper movement and a lot of these New age groups very easily. Not just by excommunicating all of the people, you know, disciplining and, or excommunicating all the people who speak at the conferences. You know, we've got, you know, we, we have Denver Snuffer and his, his group still holding conferences and meetings. We have the Doctrine of Christ people. We have, we have. I, I mean, I don't, you know, Rodney Meldrum and the Heartland people, I'm not saying that they all share the same beliefs. And Chad, Lori, and I'm not even, you know, calling on the church to go after any of these people per se. I've met with Denver Snuffer. He seems like a really pleasant guy. Rod Meldrum's come on Mormon stories and, and I think he's got a lot of followers or, or members of his community that are sincere. But what I am saying is, is that, that the Mormon Church could absolutely kill. They could just say, until we tell you it is, it is an excommunicable offense to ever talk about a date that Jesus is coming. It's just, it's forbidden. It's as forbidden as coffee. It's as forbidden as tea. It's as forbidden as premarital. Sex. No one can ever talk about the date Jesus is coming again. We'll add it to the temple recommendation questions and will teach it from the pulpit. Every general conference. They could stamp out any speculation about the coming of Jesus. They could stamp out any new age practices like energy readings or, or muscle memory tests or Reiki. They could just say just like, you know, drugs are, are against the word of wisdom, just like alcohol, you know, just like premarital sex is bad and like, they would like to say same sex marriage is bad and masturbation is bad. You cannot be a member in good standing if you are engaging in any of these new age practices, energy readings, energy healings, etc. And you could just go down the list of, or you could say do. They could say do. Do not, you know, spend your money. Never liquidate your life savings for end of times. Never believe anyone who tells you that you need to do that. And until we, you know, Russell and Nelson Dallin H. Oaks, you know, Henry B. Eyring, until we tell you to start buying tents, to start buying trailers, to start liquidating, never trust anyone who does. And if you hear anyone doing, doing any of these things that I, John De Lin just said, encouraging it, speaking about it, writing books about it, they add near death experiences to the mix. They could, they could make near death experiences forbidden to talk about, to teach about because obviously Chad and Laurie and even Julie Rowe, a lot of their beliefs came up through the near death experience sort of track. The church could just say talking about publicly or writing about near death experiences is just off the table and anyone who does is excommunicated. The church could clamp down on all of these teachings and, and potentially put a stop to a lot of this stuff. They have it within their power. They do it with same sex marriage, they do with transgenderism, they do it with alcohol and tea and tobacco, they do it with tithing, they do it with premarital sex and adultery. Couldn't they absolutely clamp down and shut this stuff down? Megan, we'll let you go first.

Megan Conner [01:35:54] Yeah, absolutely they could. I mean they're, they're a huge worldwide organization with $250 billion at their disposal. They've got a lot of smart people working for them. We know that they have people whose full time occupation it is to track these kinds of movements and to learn all they can about what's being taught and they're doing nothing. And I agree some of maybe the things that we've discussed here today, we've discussed previously are problematic for the church or problematic for a lot of different reasons. But they, with their huge amount of time and resources and personnel, could come up with something, some kind of solution. And at this point, how many people have died because of these beliefs? And I'm not just talking about this immediate family, although this is what we're talking about today. Two children died and Chad and Tammy lost their lives as well. Alex lost his life as well. It's unconscionable that they would say nothing in the face of this kind of tragedy. And it just, it reiterates to me and I hope to everybody else that the priorities of the LDS Church right now are very clear. They're protecting their reputation and they're protecting the future of their membership over trying to save the lives potentially of more people who could be harmed by these kinds of teachings. And then they're just doing nothing.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] What's your reaction?

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:24] I think I, Yeah, well, I totally agree with you, John. They could come down on the, on, on these, all these types of movements within a, you know, a week if they wanted to. But I also want to point out, John, and, and ask you what you think about this. Doesn't it tell us something? When Lori is getting frequent visits from her LDS bishops to jail, you know, she's, she's been accused of murdering her kids, conspiring to murder Tammy Daybell. You know, there's a chat, Vallow part of, of the story. She keeps getting visits from her bishop. But if any member of any word and, and I think there's a lot of people who are listening to this that have had that experience, either have sincere questions, a hard but sincere questions about, about their beliefs, or start investigating and have, you know, reasons to, to start losing their faith in the church. There, there's dead silence by the bishop, by the whole word word, you know, family members ostracize you and stop talking to you. Isn't it interesting, you know, that people can have this crazy beliefs, even being accused of murder and still receive frequent business from their LDS bishop, but the moment that you bring up maybe the CS letter in Sunday school, you're going to be ostracized and maybe never ever be addressed again. So I think it tells us a little bit about the culture, you know, that, that the church faces and that would, you know.

Guest [01:38:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:00] Yeah. I love your point, Megan, about the, the silence. The silence of the Mormon prophet series of revelators speaks volumes, you know, and it's not just preparism. It's also just basic Mormon fundamentalism. Like you, the people who end up as preppers or as fundamentalist Mormons just are the ones who take Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and the Bible's teachings very seriously. Because this is Mormon doctrine. Preparing for the end times, getting your food storage. Jesus is coming any moment. Spirits, you know, evil spirits inhabiting bodies. We've already talked about our Mormon stories. That's all Mormon doctrine. You know, people getting witnesses from the Holy Ghost and even the ability to kill people. If the Holy Ghost tells you it's okay, it's right there in First Nephi Chapter 3. So, you know, in addition to the, the church leaders staying silent just generally about this case, they, they could say, we're sorry that our early teachings from our prophets have led sometimes to these problems. But, but they don't want to take any responsibility for that. I'm going to go ahead and read some. We've got some great comments coming in from our viewers and listeners. And so I'm just going to maybe I'm going to maybe just share a few of those. Ramona writes those groups still exist. Maven. They were on vacation before she got sick and she was both anorexic and diabetic with mental illness. I'm not exactly sure what Ramon is talking about. Maybe you guys can tell us. But I think the point that I get from that comment is that these prepper groups still exist. Is that, is that, that's true, right?

Megan Conner [01:40:45] Yeah. And I think the last part of her comment was referencing Stacy's death when the family was in Hawaii and Stacy was very sick and, and ended up dying while they were on vacation. But yes, these groups still exist. Chad's group still still exists. And he mentions in the patriarchal blessing that he gave Alex, the Church of the Firstborn, which is clearly a church that he, he and his followers were setting up to continue to perpetuate these beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:41:11] Yeah, there, there is a comment that, that some person, Dan writes, he says, I think Denver Snuffer was exed already. Absolutely. I think I said Denver Snuffer was excommunicated. I don't want to give the impression that the church has not excommunicated, communicated any preppers. And even I mentioned the Doctrine of Christ group. I know that some of the leaders of the Doctrine of Christ group, I believe, have been excommunicated as well. My point wasn't that the church has never excommunicated preppers or fundamentalist leaders. It's that with their $250 billion, they could do a lot more. They're not doing enough. That's that's the point I'm trying to make. And some people may say that's not fair, but. But I think it's fair. $250 billion. That's a quarter of a trillion dollars. They could literally hire the equivalent of an FBI or a CIA to just ferret all this, all this stuff out, to just beef up the strengthening the church members committee and to just ferret all of this out and just have massive ways of excommunications wherever this stuff breaks out. S.L. conley writes, and you guys, please feel free to jump in at any time. S.L. conley writes, it's almost a badge of honor to be excommunicated. I'll say. In the modern era. S.L. conley. I think that's true and not true. It depends on who you're. Who you're excommunicated and what you're excommunicated for. I don't think it's a badge of honor that Chad Daybell was excommunicated. I don't know if it was a badge of honor that Denver Schnaufer is excommunicated. I will say that for Sam Young and Natasha Helfer and Bill Reel and some of my dear. As friends, I. I consider them heroes, for sure. Do you guys have any comments on that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:52] I. I think I. I agree with you.

Guest [01:42:54] Okay.

Megan Conner [01:42:54] Yeah, I agree with you, too. Although your comment about the church having an organization like the FBI, it's very scary to me.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] Yeah, for sure. For sure. But with great power comes great responsibility. Like, if you, if you, if you've got teachings that'll fill the Rexburg Tabernacle and cause tens of thousands of people to liquidate their retirement funds and purchase trailers and food storage to, like, go to the hills if your doctrine and your culture has that much power. And then if you've got a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets, you can afford to spend half a billion dollars, you know, to beef up vigilance and security. You just can't. So it's scary. But, you know, they ought to think about it more. Go ahead. We're gonna say something, Megan.

Megan Conner [01:43:46] They ought to think about doing something.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] Something. Yeah. Trial Junkie writes, even if that something is participating with law enforcement, you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe they don't have to become Big Brother, but maybe they could cooperate with law enforcement to, to, to shut this stuff down more. Trial Junkie writes, in the normal Christian church, we don't know when Jesus is coming. There are signs that could point to the end of Times, but those signs have been seen time and time again in history. I mean, I think what I hear, trial junkie, is saying Mormons aren't the only Christians who have been obsessed with the end times. Obviously Jehovah's Witnesses have. Obviously others have as well. Anything you guys want to say about that?

Megan Conner [01:44:32] I think the Bible opens us up to speculation there. So you can include any Christian religion that has some kind of feeling about the end of times, but when you add that with the component from the LDS Church of personal revelation, that's where things turn problematic because then you have regular people who think that they're receiving personal revelation about when the world's going to end. And that's where all of this kind of comes to a head.

Guest [01:44:56] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:57] And when we have apostles, you know, admitting that they even have a hard time deciphering when, when God is talking to them versus when it's just their own thoughts and, and you know, that's the main question that admittedly the apostles have said that they get time and time again, how do I differentiate between my thoughts and God's thoughts? And then all gets mixed in with the end times. And, you know, really, you know, being taught in church over and over again that we have the ability to have personal revelation, you know, it get, it gets scary.

Lessons About Religious Authority and Blind Obedience

John Dehlin [01:45:33] Yeah, I, I'll, I'll be repeating something I've said on Mormon stories a lot, but if today is like a condensation of a lot of the points we've been making throughout this trial, I'll just say this again, that I believe that it should be illegal in some way, shape or form in not just the United States, but the world for anyone to claim they speak for God. It's the Mormon Church that teaches you that feelings can be a manifestation of God or the Holy Ghost or Jesus communicating to you. I think that teaching is ultimately dangerous because no one can, no one has ever been able to tell me how to discern between, how to discern between your own feelings, mental illness, and legitimate inspiration from God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost, if they even exist. So that's too much. That's, that's too much of a fraught epistemology. It's too unreliable and there's too much power there. Because once either someone claims to be speaking for God, then all the people who aren't able to communicate with God put too much power and trust in that person who claims to be speaking for God or anyone who claims the mantle of speaking for God. That's just, you know, that's just Also unacceptable. No one should think that they can talk directly to God or Jesus or the Holy Ghost in any way that is, that is certain, in any way where any major decisions can be based on it. Because it can always be mental illness or just your brain producing thoughts in every single case. There's no way to prove ever that God said anything to him, to her, to Julie Rowe, to Denver Snuffer, to Joseph Smith, to Brigham Young, to Chad Daybell, to Lori, to anyone. No one can know. They can't even know. You can't even know if God is certainly speaking to you or the Holy Ghost. It could be mental illness. It could be just your own thoughts, it could be your emotions. So all of that, number one, should be illegal. But number two, the Mormon Church could just say, never believe anyone who says they speak for God, including a patriarch, including a father's blessing. And I guess they can say, unless Russell M. Nelson or the church's prophet himself says he's speaking for God. Because clearly, you know, the church would cease to exist if they're, if they taught that modern day prophets didn't speak to God. But they could basically at least ban anyone speaking for God below the prophet. And then they could shut a lot of this stuff down as well. But that's probably too extreme. Is that too extreme, y'? All?

Megan Conner [01:48:18] I don't think it's too extreme. I think that's a good start, but I don't think they'll do it. And they, like we've talked about before, they don't address things like this head on. They'll be very vague about it and they'll say, we've repeatedly told people that only the prophet speaks for God and the prophet will never leave lead the church astray. And so anybody who's getting individual revelation, that's what for anybody but themselves. I mean, they've said these things generally, but they haven't addressed it head on.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:46] Yeah, well, it's hard. Like you said, John, there's not a real way to tell, you know, whether. Whether, you know, Chad or Joseph Smith were right. Who. Who was right? You know, is it Russell M. Nelson who had a ride? Was it Esther Tough Benson who had a right. You know, they. We have prophets contradicting each other. We have. It's just, it's just, it's just hard. Just this whole idea of someone being able to talk to God and then tell people what God said, it's. It's fraud.

John Dehlin [01:49:20] Yeah. A couple other quick comments. Speaking of heroes, Radio Free Mormon or rfm is in the house. He runs a really important podcast called Radio Free Mormon. He also co hosts a podcast called Mormonism Live every week with Bill Real on Wednesday, Wednesday nights at 6:20pm RFM writes, My Bishop hasn't visited me once. We're all glad because you know, Radio Free Mormon, you just are pretty much a truth teller and so we don't want you being punished for telling the truth. So me too.

Megan Conner [01:49:53] Rfm.

Guest [01:49:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:55] Loved rfm.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:56] I think he, he, he was trying to make a joke on the irony that Lori Valo does get visits from her bishop.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] Oh, right. Yeah. Couple more comments. Amy writes, Fundy Baptists are obsessed with revelations. That's true. It's not just prepper Mormons and Mormons who, who believe they can get direct revelations. Libby writes. Thank you. Faith is a guess. I think that's a ra really succinct way to put it. Faith or inspiration or revelation really is a guess. We often like to cover on Mormon stories that today's, you know, yesterday's revelation is today's outdated policies that have been rolled back or denounced. Right. How many times have we covered on the LDS discussion series on Mormon stories things that were doctrine, you know, decades or a century or more ago that, that the modern day prophets say, oh, those were just the heirs of men, you know. So again, if a. More even if Russell and Nelson today says something's doctrine, you really can't even know that that's doctrine even as a believing Mormon because you never know if in 10 or 20 or 40 years what Russell M. Nelson says today will be denounced in 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years as outdated. All right, so I think we were hoping that Lauren Matthias could join us from her amazing YouTube channel Hidden True Crime, but it looks like she may not be able to join us. Megan, you, you told us that you have to leave in nine minutes. You know, we really appreciate you joining Mormon Stories and telling your story on Mormon Stories. Did you talk about, you know, any, if any friends or family have reached out to you and if you've had any reactions to your story that's worth sharing really quickly.

Megan Conner [01:51:48] My friends have all been really supportive. My chosen family has all been really supportive. My dear sister, who is one of my very best friends has been very supportive of my whole journey has always been but I have gotten, I've gotten very little comment from other family members and I reached out to a few family members during the trial and have not received any answer back. And I don't know if that's because of the kind of truths that I'm speaking or uncomfortable for them or if it's just a matter of this whole thing being so painful. Either way, I feel really sad that it kind of feels a little bit like our family hasn't learned anything from this tragedy. If we continue to not communicate with each other about the things that are important to us.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Yeah, I love it. Megan, really quickly, we appreciate Gerardo and Maven who are both joining us at some level. If you are listening now, please take the time to subscribe to our YouTube channel here on Mormon Stories podcast. When you subscribe, subscribe, it helps the algorithms, it helps us grow, it helps give attention. You can also like this episode and you can also share it with family and friends. The more watched and viewed and shared an episode is on YouTube, the more YouTube promotes it and, and the more it goes viral. Also on Facebook, you can also share and like everything there as well. We really appreciate it. We also appreciate everyone who takes the time to give a super chat donations. You know, you can always donate to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation through the Super Chat feature in, in YouTube. And that's just basically going to the little chat window and clicking on that little dollar sign and, you know, donating whatever amounts you can, you can. We really appreciate that that's the way that you, you keep this type of programming alive really quickly. Megan, a lot of really kind comments are coming in for you. Marshall writes, megan is so brave. Love her truth telling. Another federal 100 writes, Megan is so well spoken, she needs to be a regular. I wouldn't mind having you back, Megan Gerardo, I'm guessing you feel the same way. Luella Manning writes, megan's Mormon Stories was, was my favorite. I had everyone watch. Thank you, Luella, for spreading the word. I will say that's quite a compliment, Megan, because There's like almost 1800 plus almost 2000, at least 2000 hours of Mormon stories by now. So when you get declared someone's favorite, that's saying something a big deal.

Megan Conner [01:54:43] I really appreciate all the support in the comments here and on Lauren's Hidden True Kind podcast too. It's the, the support has been overwhelmingly positive and it's been a really bright spot and a terrible part of, of my life. So I really, I really do appreciate the positive support for that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] Yeah, thank you. So Conley writes, did Megan Megan leave the church? S.L. conley, you need to check out Megan's episode of Mormon Stories podcast to get the answer. Megan, because this is a family issue because you grew up with Lori you knew her because this is so tender and close to your heart. Can we just give you a chance to give your final thoughts before you have to jump?

Closing Reflections and Gratitude

Megan Conner [01:55:26] Well, I've been looking forward to this day and also dreading it. I'm really glad to have this part of the story, have a closing to this chapter, to have justice for JJ and Ty and Tammy and to, and to know that there are good people out there who, who are willing to see the truth and tell the truth. I'm grateful to everybody who testified. I'm grateful to the prosecutors who worked so hard. I'm grateful to everybody who in the media who's covering this story. Really grateful to you, John, and all your hard work on this channel and the work that you're doing to help people transition because that is such a difficult thing, going through a faith transition. I think you've done a lot of good and saved a lot of lives. And Gerardo, I'm appreciative of your contributions to the channel as well and your work on the Laurie case and to everybody, Mindy Caldwell and to Lauren for, for their hard work and keeping up with all the details of this case. It's been enormous. It's been a really long three year journey. There's still a lot more work to do. I know there's going to be an appeal and there's going to be at least another trial in Arizona. And then, of course, Chad has his trial. So I know this story is going to continue to go on. But what I really hope that people take away from this is that it's really easy to get sucked into things when we have unmet emotional needs and especially when we have childhood traumas or other traumas that are disturbing our normal thought processes and helping us to relate to people in healthy ways. It's very, very easy for things to go wrong very quickly. And so I really hope that what people take away from this is that it's important for us to be introspective about our own shortcomings and to get the mental health, the mental health help that we need in order to relate with each other in healthy ways, to be kind to each other, to be good to each other, and to just recognize our own shortcomings and our own faults.

John Dehlin [01:57:32] All right, Megan Connor. Well, we're so grateful to have met you. It's a silver lining in, in this really tragic case. We're so grateful you come on Mormon stories. You're a thoughtful, lovely human. And we hope this won't be the last time. I mean, I Guess there's still the verdict, right? Like, we still don't know. It'll probably be a couple months before not. Not the verdict, but the sentencing. And so maybe we'll have you back at least then, if not sooner.

Megan Conner [01:58:01] Yeah, I'd love to come back anytime. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] All right. You take care, Megan. I know you gotta jump. We really appreciate having you. Gerardo and I will just wrap up.

Megan Conner [01:58:09] Okay. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:58:11] Okay. Take care, Megan. All right. Gerardo, is there anything you want to. I. I mean, I don't. Do you want to just share? Gerardo, really quickly, just summarize why this case is so important to you. You've spoken about it in past episodes, but you came to me and said, john, I really want to cover this. Can we cover this? I think it's important. Obviously, there's a general, very broad interest globally and certainly in the US but is that, you know, is.

Megan Conner [01:58:37] You're.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] You're not family of Lori Valow, but I can tell this. This case meant a lot to you. So do you want to give some concluding thoughts that. That also might share why this case has been so important to you and. And anything else that you want to share before we wrap up?

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:53] Sure. Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:58:54] So

Gerardo Sumano [01:58:57] one of the reasons is because I. I was attending BYU Idaho, one of the LDS universities in Rexburg, while all these events were. Were happening. So while Lori and Chad were, you know, we now know we're walking down the treadmill at BYU Idaho Center. Like, I was taking classes, you know, a few. A few feet away and from. From where they were and while the murders were happening, I. I was there. I was living there a few miles from where Chad lives. And so it definitely caught my, you know, caught my attention. The. The whole story part of it also is that my husband is from Idaho Falls. So, you know, a lot of people that are close to him or his family that are part of his word have a lot of these prepper. A lot of these beliefs, you know, related to prepper movements and crystals and energy healings that are, you know, some. Some of them, you know, come. Come up on. On Lori's and Chad's beliefs, people that knew them. So anyway, so that's why I think I was close to the story. And also it was a good reminder, I think, for me that we've had to always check for our beliefs, question our beliefs, and be open to the idea that we. We might be wrong. You know, never just be complacent and say, like, you know, I have it all figured out and because you know, I mean, this is an extreme case, but that, I think that's why these, these cases happen or these murders happen was because of people who had really strong beliefs not willing to question or check themselves.

John Dehlin [02:00:52] Yeah, and I'll just piggyback on that, Gerardo, and say that, you know, this is an extreme case. Our, our argument isn't that Mormonism always turns people into murderers. This is rare. These people were extreme in several ways. In many ways, in many important ways. Chad Daybell, Nori Vallo and the others don't represent mainstream orthodox Mormonism. And I think, I think it's okay for us to admit that. I think, think that's true. But we've also highlighted the ways that this is Mormon. But the point that I want to make is that the putting murder aside, there are hundreds of thousands of ways and hundreds of thousands of decisions made every single day that are made in similitude of the decisions that, that Chad and Lori made. Whether it's, you know, a Mormon youth, a 12 year old girl or a 12 year old boy believing, a bishop or a prophet when they say it's evil, you know, if you happen to explore yourself sexually in some way, you know, they're putting their faith in their leaders in ways that the leaders may or may not be right. There are Mormon bishops and Mormon stake presidents literally every single week across Mormonism who are in a position of power, who use their power to abuse children and teens and members of their ward. You can't go a month in Utah without some bishop being charged with rape or assault. And that's just the ones that we hear about, just the ones that we know about. There are Mormons all the time, Mormon parents who believe what Mormon church leaders say about things like same sex marriage, where they don't support their LGBTQ children in ways that normally a parent would if it weren't for the, the Mormon Church denouncing, you know, LGBT behaviors or trans, you know, trans decisions around, you know, life saving care for transgender people. And so because that, that, you know, Mormon prophets claim to speak for God, claim that God doesn't want LGBTQ people to live full, authentic lives, then you've got hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Mormons both believing and following the prophets in that regard. And you've got children and youth who are vulnerable, who experience severe levels of depression and anxiety, again, because Mormon prophets and revelators claim to know the mind and will of God. You've got fathers giving fathers blessings where they're telling their children or their spouses what they should do, claiming that it's God's will, not to mention Mormon patriarchs, when in reality, it could literally just be random thoughts that just come into their minds or, or worse, their own selfish interests or their own biases, where the people receiving those patriarchal blessings or father's blessings or spouse blessings feel compelled to do whatever they're counseled to do because of priesthood authority and because of claims that the patriarchy can speak for God. So while what we don't want the world to think is that we're claiming that Mormonism makes all Mormons and murders, what we do want to say is, is that these teachings, including millennialistic teachings, that make, you know, in benign cases, people prepare excessively for the end of times, but in worst cases, you know, makes people neglect the world that we're living in because they believe that Jesus is coming any moment. For all these reasons, there are Mormon doctrines, Mormon teachings, Mormon practices, Mormon beliefs around inspiration, the spirit, authority, patriarchy, blessings and claims of prophetic authority that wreak havoc in the lives of the membership. It's not always bad. Sometimes good things come from Mormon doctrines and teachings, but sometimes a lot of harm comes to the lives of rank and file members that stop short of murder. And for me, that's what is. Is important about the Chad Dabo and Lori Valo case. It's not that, you know, people need to avoid Mormonism because they'll become murderers or because they'll be murdered. It's that in way too many ways, undue influence and lack of informed consent causes way too much harm and damage within the lives of naive or trusting Mormons. And so these teachings need to be corrected

Megan Conner [02:05:47] for.

John Dehlin [02:05:47] For all those reasons. Gerardo, any final words or thoughts before we close out?

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:52] No, I just. I would say I totally agree with you and I think I express some of the feelings I expressed, you know, are parallel to what, what you just said. Again, just emphasize that I think it's important for everyone. Everyone, no matter where you are or where you're at with your beliefs or, or thoughts, you know, you should always. We should always be willing to. To check ourselves and. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:24] Gerardo, do you think we'll be covering this case anymore on Mormon stories, or do you think this kind of wraps it up?

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:30] Well, there's still the Chad, the. The Chad, uh, the bulk case, you know, that, uh, it seems like it could be live streamed. Uh, so there might be even more interest than on Lori's case for that one. And, and then, you know, like you mentioned, John, there's going to be the the sentencing coming in a couple months. So I think we would be at least maybe covering the sentencing.

Guest [02:06:54] Right.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] Okay. All right. Well, again, thank you so much, Gerardo, for making this possible. Thanks to Mindy Caldwell, thanks to Lauren maas, thanks to Dr. John, right. Lauren's husband and of course, Megan for their participation and for everyone who has supported us in their comments.

Gerardo Sumano [02:07:15] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [02:07:17] All right.

Guest [02:07:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] So today we are wrapping up this episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks again, Gerardo, for making it possible. And for those of you who are just joining us late, the the verdict is in, six counts of guilty, unanimous verdict by the jury. The conspiracy to murder charges, the first degree murder charges of Tylee and JJ and of Tammy and theft and all the charges, they're all they all came back today unanimous and guilty. And Lori Valo will most likely spend the rest of her life in prison. And we hope that good things come. I will say please again, subscribe to our YouTube channel. And this Sunday, please know that 60 Minutes, I believe it's CBS News, is going to be covering. They're going to be interviewing David Nielsen, who is the whistleblower who helped, you know, whistleblow on the Mormon Church with Ensign Peak. And it's hoarding of tens of billions or hundreds of of billions of dollars in assets and investments and not using those investments for charitable purposes. David Nielsen will be interviewed. The 60 Minutes will be covering that story. Please check into 60 Minutes this weekend, this Sunday for that and please share that episode and this episode with as many people as you can. All right, everyone, you guys, be good to each other, be kind to each other. Take care. And again, our heartfelt love and support to all the people who have been impacted by Lori Valo and Chad Daybell and this entire case. But please be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all have healthy beliefs and weed out unhealthy beliefs in in everything that you do, in and out of Mormonism. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.