Pt 1: Returning to Mormonism after Falling Away
What happens when a multiracial woman raised in a loving family that valued advocacy, positivity, and education joins the Mormon church? Summur’s fascinating journey takes you from her NFL player father desegregating a team, to her mother fiercely protecting her from bullies and racism. Despite nurturing experiences at home, Summur faced harsh judgments and segregationist attitudes at church – a stark contrast that began shaping her doubts. Her path winds through BYU, an African American Studies class that unveiled new perspectives, and a traumatic racist cop incident, before working as a flight attendant and meeting her husband.
With a unique multicultural lens, Summur shares the powerful family influences, eye-opening experiences, and pivotal moments like a young girl’s innocent “Look mommy, a Lamanite” comment that led her to fundamentally question certain Mormon teachings and toxic cultures like purity culture. Prepare for an insightful, thought-provoking journey through the eyes of a Black Mormon woman.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guest: Summur-Rayn Berrett
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Welcome
Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1887
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's April 10, 2024. We're here with Margi. Hey, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:08] Hey.
John Dehlin [00:00:09] And we are so excited. This is an interview we've been working on for, I don't know, six months. How long? We're so excited to have with us in studio, Summer Rain. Barrett. Hey, Summer. Hello. Hello, Summer. Ray.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] How are you?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:00:21] Hi, everybody.
John Dehlin [00:00:22] Summer's got a great Mormon story. There's so many cool themes. She grew up back east. I mean, obviously there's going to be so many themes. Her dad, Burgess Owens, is a former NFL football player. He's also currently one of the four congressmen in the state of Utah. But actually, that's not really what we're going to be talking about today. And it's actually not why we're interviewing Summer. There's so many cool themes. You know, growing up, she kind of her family converted to the church. She grew up kind of in the New York, you know, Pennsylvania, Northeast. You know, there will be some talks about, you know, kind of racial issues within the church that'll come up. You know, she's been through a faith journey, but also she's in a mixed faith marriage now. And she also just has a really cool Mormon story. She took a path that I think a lot of our traditional Utah born and bred kind of Mormons, you know, didn't. So it represents an entire kind of experience that we haven't, we haven't had a lot of Mormon stories, including being a flight attendant, including working for an NFL football team.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:01:32] A lot of things.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:33] Love it.
John Dehlin [00:01:34] A lot of cool things. Being, you know, being less active as a young adult and waiting several years to find your eternal companion, you know, so a lot of cool themes. So without any further ado, Summer, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:01:50] Thank you. Thank you. I'm very excited and honored to be here.
John Dehlin [00:01:54] Yeah, we love to have you. We do always usually begin with people kind of sharing their intention because it's very easy, especially for Mormons, believing Mormons, LDS church members, to misinterpret why someone would want to tell their Mormon story. So we just like to make that really clear up front. Why are you doing this? Why did you want to tell your story?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:02:14] I wrote it down of what my intent was and just so I can make sure I paint, pinpoint and say it the correct way. I want to tell my story in a way that connects and helps inspires others. And I want them to hear my life and feel they are not alone in any part of their journey. I also would like to become a leading voice in this space because there's so many voices right now. And I'd love to, as a woman of color, as somebody who grew up a little differently than the traditional Utah way, I'd love to be a voice for those people who are in that space that don't feel like they have that.
John Dehlin [00:02:55] Yeah, yeah. And you've actually been participating in some podcasts, is that right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:03:01] I have, yes.
John Dehlin [00:03:03] I think you co host sometimes with Steven Pinegar in Mormon Book Reviews. Shout out to Steven.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:03:08] Yes, Mormon Book Reviews. I've worked with Gene Judson. He was actually the first podcast I ever did, the first interview, that's Ladder Daily Digest. And he asked me to interview RFM with him. So that was a big interview for my first time ever. RFM's amazing. And so, yeah, I've been bouncing around here and there, just kind of supporting other people's journeys and podcasts just so I can kind of get out there too.
John Dehlin [00:03:38] Well, we adore all the creators in this community, including Gene and Steven and RFM and Bill Real and, you know, all the. All the people. So that's fun. It's been fun to see you jump into that community as well. So thanks for raising your voice.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:03:53] Of course. Thank you.
Family Background and Converting to Mormonism
John Dehlin [00:03:55] All right, so I guess where does. I mean, you. I think you converted the church when you were like two or something.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:04:01] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:04:02] So your Mormon story begins pretty early, but why don't you tell us a bit about your dad and mom and their backgrounds first?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:04:09] Okay. So as we stated, my father is Congressman Burgess Owens. For those of you who have not heard his story, he grew up in Florida, very segregated South. The KKK was a real threat. You know, burning crosses, things like that were actively happening during his childhood. He grew up Baptist, but it was completely segregated. He said he didn't actually see a white person until I believe it was ninth grade, tenth grade. So it was a segregated community. But their was very focused on faith and family. Because they couldn't trust the government, they tended to rely on themselves. So their community in itself thrived even though it was segregated. And my father was. He likens it to remember the Titans because his high school desegregated and so he ended up going to Ricketts High School and they were the first ones. So this is Tallahassee area.
John Dehlin [00:05:28] Where is that? For those who don't know? Florida, Tallahassee. Panhandle. Is that Panhandle?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:05:33] That is. It's not Panhandle. See, I know it through sports. So like Florida State University. It's gosh, I'm seeing it in my mind on the map, but it's not Panhandle. It's over. They can look it up.
John Dehlin [00:05:51] Okay, we'll look it up. Yeah, we'll look it up. Sorry, I'm just trying to get it. Margi's giving me the stink eye. Okay, I'll look it up. Tallahassee.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:00] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:06:01] It's not Orlando, it's not Disney. Okay, but so he grew up in Tallahassee and then ended up going to his high school. His high school desegregated his high school year. So they started sending him there and he had some real. It was a tough transition for all of them. He actually, to this day, he tells a story about how he was playing football and they were lined up and they all had their cleats on and they had to jump in between each other. So it was kind of like a human ladder and they had to, to jump in between and everyone was laying down and the quarterback on purpose landed on his ankle and cut his ankle with the cleats.
John Dehlin [00:06:53] Was he white?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:06:54] He was white.
John Dehlin [00:06:55] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:06:55] And it was on purpose. And to this day, my dad still has that scar on his ankle. And it's just kind of a reminder of where we've come because they, like he says, remember the Titans? It was very difficult. It was difficult for both sides of the fence to try to come together when they've heard such bad things about each other. So he was raised Baptist. My mother was raised in Trinidad and Tobago, which is an island in the West Indies. It's by Venezuela that I know, I know where that is on the map. And so she was raised Catholic. But my family on that side is very diverse spiritually. So there's Christian, there's Catholic. I also have a lot of Hindu Hinduism in my family on the East Indian side. So she grew up Catholic, but understanding and seeing all these different beliefs and spiritualities within her family dynamic. So yeah, that is my parents upbring. It was Baptist and Catholic, two very non high demand faiths. And so they kind of came in it together believing in God but not really having these things that they had to do to be a member of their faith.
Margi Dehlin [00:08:29] Yeah,
John Dehlin [00:08:32] let's see at what did your parents meet and marry before your dad went to NFL or after?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:08:38] Okay, no.
John Dehlin [00:08:39] Okay, so do you wanna just talk like how'd your dad get to the NFL? That's a pretty big deal.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:08:44] So yeah, so like I said, they were desegregated in Rickards High School, and he ended up getting drafted. Oh, I'm sorry, that's not drafted. He ended up going to University of Miami, and he was the first of three black players at University of Miami, which is crazy to think about now when you look at Miami and the way it's made up. But they had all white team, and he was the first of three black players there. So his whole experience growing up was one of transition and kind of seeing the world changing in front of his eyes, which is pretty cool. Then from Universe Miami, he was drafted first round, 10th overall. Sorry, 13th overall to the jets. The New York Jets. And he went there. It's kind of funny.
John Dehlin [00:09:45] And I'm just looking at dates, it looks like. Is this right? He was with Miami from like 1970-72?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:09:50] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:09:51] Does that sound right?
Margi Dehlin [00:09:51] Yep.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:09:52] Because he was drafted in 73.
John Dehlin [00:09:53] So as late as the early 70s, yes. Miami was still a white football team. That's crazy.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:10:00] Is that crazy?
John Dehlin [00:10:01] Wow. Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:10:02] It's so crazy.
John Dehlin [00:10:03] And so he was a trailblazer. He was kind of deep desegregating Miami. University of Miami football.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:10:08] Yeah. And what's interesting is he just received the Trailblazer award at University of Miami last year for that. So I don't know. I'm really proud of my parents and kind of how they forged their own paths in a world that was changing rapidly. So, yeah, 73 was when he was drafted to the jets. And even with the jets, he played with them for seven years. But he was a union rep. He was the union rep for New York. And there were a lot of things that the NFL was doing at the time that are just ridiculous if we think about it now. But they would. Medical records. If a player was injured, he had to go to the NFL doctor, and they were not allowed their own medical records. So they had to trust that this doctor is giving him the right stuff to put them back on the field. So what I.
John Dehlin [00:11:17] It's a conflict of interest because maybe the doctor would provide care that's best for the team, but not for the individual.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:11:23] Well, most of the time it was that way. There's something called the shot that they would just kind of give them on the sidelines and throw them back in. So there are a lot of player rights that my dad was kind of on the forefront as a union rep trying to get done. This was also a time when the NFL would only allow certain players in certain positions based on race.
John Dehlin [00:11:50] So, like, a quarterback could be black, for example.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:11:52] Quarterback could not be black. And they were considered thinking positions. So my dad being a defensive back was a pretty big deal. I know. Isn't that crazy?
John Dehlin [00:12:03] So was the defensive back considered a white position?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:12:05] Yes, it's considered a thinking position.
John Dehlin [00:12:07] Oh, my gosh.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:12:08] Yeah. So it's just so. It's just so crazy because that wasn't that long ago.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:16] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:12:17] So anyway, he was fighting for these rights, and the New York jets were very upset that he was a union rep, so they ended up trading him to the Raiders. The Oakland Raiders and the Oakland Raiders then were kind of known for being a rambunctious group. They were the Renegades, where people go when they're out of control. So back in this era, there was no. There were no. Sorry. There was free agency in the sense of you can walk on the team. But players had no say on trades or anything like that. So there were. There wasn't any type of label where they could say, I'm going to be talking to these different teams. It was just the teams that would talk and just kind of trade around. So my dad ended up going to the Oakland Raiders and he won a Super bowl with them the first year. They're the first wild card team to ever go to super bowl and win.
John Dehlin [00:13:20] Your dad's got a ring.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:13:21] He's got a ring.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:22] Wow.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:13:23] And that was in 1981. I like to say it was because of me.
John Dehlin [00:13:29] Because that's when you were born.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:13:30] I was born in 80, so I was six months old.
John Dehlin [00:13:34] You're the difference maker.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:13:35] I'm the difference.
John Dehlin [00:13:35] Summer's the difference maker.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:36] He was overflowing with the joy of summer.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:13:39] Yes. And he just took that on the field. So. Yeah, that was in 81. Now, my mother, she, like I said, was raised in Trinidad and Tobago. My grandmother came up by herself and left her four children in Trinidad and just got a career up here in New York. She was a nurse and also a model. And then when she got enough money, she sent for them and they came up. My mom is one of four, so there's two girls, two boys, and so they all came up to New York. My mother went to school in Brooklyn and she used to do. We were just talking about this the other day. She used to do protests with Al Sharpton before he was Reverend Al Sharpton. So I try to remember my parents when I'm out of control. Like, I have activist blood in me. You guys can't.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:36] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:14:36] Don't give me any problems. So that was in Brooklyn, and then they actually met on a plane. My dad Was playing with the jets, and she was a flight attendant and was called. Quick call to the flight. And they met on an airplane, and the rest is history. So he was with the New York jets when they met.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:56] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:14:57] And then they got married, had me, and when I was born, he was traded over to the Oakland Raiders.
John Dehlin [00:15:04] So you're the oldest.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:15:05] I am the oldest. Oldest of six.
John Dehlin [00:15:07] Okay. Oh, wow.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:15:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:09] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:15:10] So. Yeah. But I was actually baptized. I think it's Episcopalian. Yeah, Episcopalian. I did. They sprinkled me and everything. So my parents were always looking for. For something.
John Dehlin [00:15:27] The truth.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:15:27] Yeah. I don't know if they were looking for the truth as much as my mom always says. I just knew. I didn't know it all. And I knew. I wanted you to not look at me like I knew everything. And so I wanted you to find something that was greater than you, than me. Sorry. As a parent. And so she went through. She and my dad kind of looked at different faiths to find out which one would really help our spirituality individually. But when my dad was with the Oakland Raiders, he played with Todd Christensen, which a lot of people will know. He came out of byu. Fantastic player. And Todd was a member of the church. And my mom was very close friends with Kathy, his wife, and that they ended up converting my parents to the gospel.
John Dehlin [00:16:28] Do you know around what year that was? Just approximately.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:16:30] Yes, I do. Actually, it was 83, because I was three. Three years old. I believe it was the year they actually got baptized on New Year's Eve, going into New Year's Day. And my dad thought that that was normal, but he realized later it wasn't. But they just wanted to get them baptized and everything. So they're like, okay, you have a. You have a flight to go back to NFL and that. Let's get you guys in right now. So he. And he says a lot of people came. A lot of people from the Oakland Raiders came to support that were not members. So it was a really. It was a really nice, fun time. It's interesting because my dad, when he was kind of looking, they weren't looking. They were looking with intent, but not, you know, let's go to every Sunday. And he said that he was invited to dinner one time, and he walked in and the missionaries were there, and they had the elder thing. And he was really into learning people's names at the time. So he said that. He said, oh, this is easy. Elder and elder. Both of your names are elder. And so that was his first foray with the missionaries. But yeah, they end up getting baptized.
John Dehlin [00:18:03] I have a question.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:18:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:18:05] So for those who don't follow kind of the chronology of Mormonism, 1978 was the year that. That I guess we could say black Mormons were given full fellowship in the church. So prior to 1978, black men couldn't hold any priesthood offices in the church or hold the priesthood, and black men and women weren't allowed into Mormon temples to get temple blessings, that sort of thing. So 82 or 83 would have been five years after the church stopped being formally, structurally, organizationally racist. So that's a really interesting time for your parents to be joining, being people of color. Have you talked to them about, like, if they knew about the priesthood ban when they got baptized, or maybe they didn't know because most people of color join the church. They're never told that the church had that history. But also, if they knew about it, have they talked to you about how they reconciled that?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:19:08] So that's not one of the lessons that the missionaries teach. So very interestingly, he had no idea. He never knew about the ban up until, I believe it was two days before he was going to be baptized. I don't know if it was a friend or family member that said, you know, that this is, you know, this is the history of the Mormon Church. They're very racist. And he just. He was shocked because he never heard that. And he called Todd Christiansen. Todd comes over with his books, and he's trying to explain to him why and where and all of that. And my dad says he had decided not to get baptized. But then, I believe it was the stake president came over. They were all sitting around the table for dinner, and the stake president looked at my dad and said, you know, Burgess, it's interesting. The Lord gives us just enough, and then he asks us to take the next step in faith, which is a very stake president thing to say. But my dad heard that and thought, you're right, we don't know everything. And I've been given all of this. I'm gonna take the next step in faith. And he was baptized. So it's interesting because we always knew about the priesthood ban, but it wasn't something that was talked about ever. It was kind of. It happened, we don't know why. Kind of like polygamy. I was raised personally that Brigham Young was one that was polygamous. I didn't know anything about Joseph Smith growing in New York, but it was always, well, yeah, we did it, but it's done. Like, we're not Doing that anymore. Same thing with the priesthood ban. And so when I talked to my parents about it, it was more. We don't know why. We never even heard reasons. I mean, we never even heard they weren't valiant in heaven or. We never even heard reasons. It was just. It happened. We don't know why, but it's not that way anymore. And so that's. Yeah, so they did know. But as much as you can know on the East Coast, I guess.
John Dehlin [00:21:41] Quick follow up. Thank you for answering that. You know, I was like paying attention in the 80s and Mormons, the Mormon Church, like all religions, like to kind of tout their celebrities. So you grow up learning about the Osmonds and they're Mormon and the Marriotts and their Mormon and Steve Young, the football player and Ty Detmer or like Jim reference, like Mormons love their celebrities. I don't remember hearing as a boy that this awesome black football player from the Raiders is a Mormon. Let's celebrate. And again, now that I think about it, that's only five years after the band. Did your dad or your parents get celebrated as like, wow, this is a huge deal. Let's put it on the front page of the church News celebrity or was it sort of kept under wraps or do you even know?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:22:30] So I know we weren't in a social media age, so I know where we were. It was celebrated. It was a pretty big deal in Oakland. In Oakland. But we, we lived in New York and then we were in Oakland during the season. So it was a pretty big deal to have an NFL player, a black NFL player, be part of the LDS Church. I remember a lot of articles that my dad would do for the church about his conversion story, but I don't think. I don't think we had as big a reach as a society as we do now. I mean, I never even heard about the Salamander letter until Murder among Mormons. And that was a big deal in the Utah.
John Dehlin [00:23:21] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:23:22] But my parents never knew about it. They've never heard about it. So it's just, it's interesting now getting certain information and saying, oh, okay, that was happening then, but we didn't know. They weren't. There was no newsroom. There was. So where we were. I don't want to say it was celebrated, but my dad did a lot of fire sites. You know, he was racist.
John Dehlin [00:23:49] We have bridges over.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:50] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:23:51] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:23:51] He did a lot of firesides. And I even remember when we moved to Pennsylvania. This is later on in my years. Vai Sakema was in our Stake. And they were really good friends. And Ty Detmer was in our stake. And so my dad said that they once had a fireside, and it said Vi Ty and the other guy. That was the slogan.
John Dehlin [00:24:17] This sounds like Philadelphia, probably, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:24:19] Yeah, it was Philly. Yep. Philadelphia area. So, yeah, I think it was celebrated, but mostly locally because that was kind of the reach.
John Dehlin [00:24:29] Okay. Okay. So let's do your. Should we do your Mormon story?
Growing Up Mormon in a Convert Family
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:24:33] Yeah, let's do it.
John Dehlin [00:24:34] So you weren't quite born in the Covenant, but, you know, a couple years later. Yeah. Did your parents get sealed and you might not remember that.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:24:46] No, they did, and they got sealed in the D.C. temple. And I remember very vaguely, but we were sealed with them. And the DC Temple was the only temple we had then. So we drove far. I mean, even for when I was growing up, for our youth conferences and stuff, we would drive really far because it was the D.C. temple. Was it? And so they were sealed. I grew up in. In the church. It's just interesting because I don't remember. I don't remember really. Like Primary and the Primary songs. I knew all of them, but my parents were very diverse spiritually.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:39] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:25:41] So I wasn't raised. And I know I heard it, but at home, I wasn't raised. This is the one and only true church.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:52] So if you were gonna kind of describe your family culture growing up as a young person, how would you describe your home? The values of when you were home, what it felt like?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:26:07] Right. It was. I was. I was so blessed. I was so blessed to grow up in the family I grew up in my. And again, I don't know if this is because my parents were both converts and from the religions they came from, but God for us, was a very real thing. So we knew he was over everything. But when we prayed, when we went in a corner and meditated, we. We had a very real connection where it was. He is listening to us and he wants the best for us. I was raised primarily, and this is me as an adult talking now, looking back, I was raised more with the values of grace. And again, I don't know if that's more the Baptist teaching, but we were taught there's nothing we can ever do to make up what has been done for us. And so everything is just, be the best person you can be, do good to others, and you're saved by grace. So that's how I was raised. My father was extremely positive thinking. I mean, we could not say. I remember growing up. We could not say, I can't. If I couldn't do something. We said, I'm working on it, or I need help. My dad's favorite thing was to say, the mind can't take a joke, so be very careful about what you say to yourself and to others. We couldn't call each other stupid. I mean, it was. And I will never forget when I was seven, I wanted to go visit a friend next door. And I went to my dad to ask him. He was in his office, this is in New York, And I went in and said, I know you're probably gonna say no, dad, but I really wanted to ask you if I can go see my friend. And he said, I was actually gonna say yes, but because you told me I'm gonna say no, it's no, no. And I was like, no, Dad.
Margi Dehlin [00:28:30] I just.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:28:31] But it taught me, don't tell people what they're going to do in a negative connotation before they do it. Lead with the positive. And so you don't walk in and say, I know you're not gonna listen. You say, I wanna talk to you because I know you're open to hearing our conversation.
Margi Dehlin [00:28:51] That kind of don't limit people.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:28:53] Exactly, exactly. So that was mostly. And also just this. I was raised with just meeting people where they are. My mother talks about shelves. And whenever I would be disappointed by somebody or they hurt me, she'd always say some now, you know what shelf to put them on. Don't put more on them than they are able or capable to give to you. So it was a good, good way of kind of depersonalizing when somebody hurts me, but also knowing there's still value in that person. You might not be the person that I'll hang out with at the club because I might not be able to trust you in that atmosphere, but you might be somebody that is that, you know, you and I can talk about other things or converse. So it was. It. It was a lesson. Growing up, I had a lot of different people in my life from a lot of different backgrounds. Faith and politically that my parents were friends with. And they always talked about how the person themselves are a valuable person, even if we disagree with these certain things. So I was raised. I was very blessed to be raised in a community where everybody is accepted. Even if you don't agree, there is still.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:30] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:30:31] That connection that you can have with people on a people level.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:35] Very unique. Very unique, for sure.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:30:38] Which I didn't realize was unique until I was older. I said, oh, not everyone thinks that way. So, yeah, that's how I was Raised my. Like I mentioned, my mother's side has Catholicism, Hinduism. And so, you know, being married now, my husband is, you know, he's done genealogy. His mother did genealogy. And there's pioneer heritage, and I didn't have pioneer heritage at all. So my upbringing was more talking about things from Trinidad and the Islands. I grew up learning about Dwens and the Buck and the Laga Hoo and the Lajablas.
John Dehlin [00:31:30] And so, wait, what are those things?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:31:33] So they are trying to think what it would be like in American terms. They are the stories you tell children to teach them specific lessons. Right. So, for example, the Dwen D O E U N the Duane. My family is. They're gonna crack up that. I'm talking about this. The Dwen are children who were not baptized and they died before they were baptized. So in the Catholic faith and most of these faiths, you're sprinkled, and these are children who were not. They look like regular children, except when you look down, their feet are turned completely backwards. So that's how you can tell it's a Dwen that you're in front of my. And what they do is they steal children. They have children come into the forest and you never see these children again. And so that was a cautionary tale of, you need to be baptized when you were born as a baby, because if you die, then, you know, you can become a Dwen. My grandmother told me that she met a Dwen. I mean, this is how I was raised.
Folklore, Genealogy, and Family Stories
John Dehlin [00:32:54] She's like demons, basically. Dead people that are never baptized. So now they are like spiritual zombies or demons that, like, cause mischief in the world.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:33:06] Yeah, I never thought of them as zombies or demons, but now that you put it that way, they're like children zombies, I guess. But it's interesting because, like I say, my grandmother, she told me when I was a younger girl that one of her sisters was very sick with a fever at home and they had to go to the local well to get water. And so she didn't go with her sister. She went by herself and she got the water. She had the bucket on her head. And she's walking back and she sees her sister at the tree crying, just sobbing. And she's like, why? Why are you there, Virgil? What's wrong? And every time she get close to her sister, her sister would get up and start backing up more and more into the forest and she is crying and she's saying, lena, Lena. And so my grandmother has this water and she's like, why are you out here? And she said that she looked down at her sister's feet and the feet were completely turned backwards.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:18] This is quite terrifying.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:34:21] This is.
John Dehlin [00:34:21] Well, was that for you or was it fun or was it just cute?
Margi Dehlin [00:34:25] It was interesting.
John Dehlin [00:34:25] Fun.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:34:26] It was fun.
John Dehlin [00:34:26] Was it mythical?
Margi Dehlin [00:34:28] Was it mythical or did it feel real?
John Dehlin [00:34:31] Fairies?
Margi Dehlin [00:34:31] Yeah, like leprechauns. The mythic quality. Yes, that's different.
John Dehlin [00:34:35] But you weren't terrified like they were gonna possess you or kill you, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:34:39] Because I didn't live in Trinidad. And from what I was being told, they were in the country because people had habitated these cities, you know, Port of Spain and the lights and stuff. So you have to go deep into the country to see these, these creatures. But what's interesting with my grandmother's story is she said that when she saw the feet backwards, she fainted. And when she woke up she was back home, but she still had the scar from the bucket on her head. So I grew up with this story and I'm thinking, wow. And I don't know, they're kind of the scary stories to tell in the dark. You know, they would tell me these stories, but I wasn't in Trinidad so I didn't think they were coming for me.
Margi Dehlin [00:35:30] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:35:31] But at the same time it added this element of mysticism. Right. Where I'm being taught about the Book of Mormon and I'm being taught about the Holy Ghost. But I also know for no doubt that there is a lodge of last which is a beautiful woman who wears a big broad brim hat. She has one cow foot hoof. That's how you know it's Elijah bless. And she takes cheating husbands and takes them away. The Lagaku is a gorgeous male and he does the same thing to women. And so it all told a story, but I believed that these were real things. And so I grew up being able to take all aspects of my parents spirituality and kind of put it into Mormonism.
Margi Dehlin [00:36:33] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:36:35] So yeah, I mean, there's the Obia, who's a witch doctor that they in Trinidad is an Obia, the Obia man. And if you want something or need something, you go to him and he'll make you something. To this day, I believe very strongly in certain things that I just won't mess with because it's just so ingrained
John Dehlin [00:36:58] in me, you know, and it's interesting cause I'm reflecting as I think about other religious traditions. It's like every culture needs its myths or it's even superstitions. And I'm not saying yours Is superstition.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:37:15] No, but that. I mean, when I met my husband, that's the first thing he would say. Oh, Summer and her superstitions. They are superstitions, but they're. They're so ingrained. When I had my daughter, she had hiccups, and I got a thread, I licked the thread, and I put a circle on her forehead to stop the hiccups, and they stopped. So, I mean, these are things that are so ingrained that you do them without thinking, but then when you say it out loud, you're like, wait, what? I did, but put thread. Wait, how does that even.
Margi Dehlin [00:37:53] But what I'm noticing, too, you kind of started by saying your husband did genealogy. And in some ways, are you saying also that these stories live inside you and they're also a tie to your ancestry, to a sense of, you know, where you're from? Is that kind of what you're saying?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:38:15] 1,000%. It is who I am, and I'm just so proud of that, you know, for my husband, he's proud to hear that his ancestors crossed the plains and, you know, they did all of this. And for me, I have such a rich history of my Portuguese side, my Spanish side, my East Indian side, having these stories, and it's their own culture. But I do recognize that all cultures kind of have their own stories and superstitions, but I know mine, which is what makes it so amazing. I just. I love it.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:02] So when you're licking the thread and you're putting it. You were saying right on your.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:39:06] I put it on her forehead in a circle. So it's like a. You know, you wind it up kind of like a snake kind of in a thread. And my grandmother was there when I did it, and it's connecting. It's connecting. And it stopped. So my doctor husband. My husband's a doctor. I'm like, do you know how to stock hiccups? Because I just did. And so it's really great. And I will say, too, my father is what they call ADOs, American descendant of slavery or enslaved people. And so he has done genealogy a few years ago and was able to trace his great, great grandfather, Silas Burgess. And he was 8 years old, came over in the belly of a slave ship. But my mother's side allows me to track more. On my father's side, there's something called the wall that. I don't know if that's the term people really use, but we call it the wall. There's a certain point that you just can't trace anymore because of slavery. There are no records. That's the law. Yeah. And so for me to have that on my mother's side, it's a wonderful blessing because I have a lot of history from my father's side, but it's stops at some point, whereas with my mom, it just continues. It continues through us, through threads.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:44] That's beautiful.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:40:44] That is beautiful.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:46] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:40:47] And when I just really quickly. Two things. When I think about the. For example, the children's spirits with the backwards feet, what are they called again?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:40:55] Dwen. A dwen.
John Dehlin [00:40:57] Like clearly, at least one of the functions of that myth or belief is that it encourages everyone to be religious and faithful. Right. Because they don't get baptized if they're not part of the church. And there's a social function to that, a pro social function of having everyone have a common set of values and a community and spirituality and tradition. So I can see why there'd be a pro social function to the belief in the dwin.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:41:24] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:41:24] And then the second, you know, the ladies that snatch people, if the husband's cheat or whatever, that's to discourage unfaithfulness and to encourage family unity and family connection and fidelity. The third, the. Was it the medical. What is it? The third you mentioned the witch doctors or what was it that.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:41:45] Oh, the Obia man. Yeah. Is a witch doctor.
John Dehlin [00:41:48] And what purpose do they.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:41:50] He's. He's a witch doctor.
John Dehlin [00:41:51] Healing.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:41:51] So healing or.
John Dehlin [00:41:53] So people are sick and.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:41:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:55] Gives them hope, gives them a sense. There's healing.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:41:57] Absolutely. I mean, you're putting it in such a nice way, John, because these stories terrified me, so I didn't think of it as unity at all.
John Dehlin [00:42:05] Well. And maybe it encourages you to pay attention, to take life seriously and to watch your behaviors.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:42:14] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:42:15] Because if you don't, bad things will happen.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:42:18] I think it goes back to the human condition of wanting to have a reason and to know.
John Dehlin [00:42:23] Oh. To get certainty in the world. Like in a crazy world.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:42:26] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:42:28] Beliefs help you feel like.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:42:30] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I in school loved mythology. I loved reading about Greek mythology, Roman mythology. And it's the same thing where it says, okay, why is the sun going down? It's this human condition of we want to know, we want an answer. So sometimes we just create one. And I mean, there's. There's something called a soukaneer in Trinidad, and that is if it's a vampire that comes at night and sucks your blood. But it's mostly when people had a hickey or a bruise and they would wake up and there's A bruise. They didn't know where it came from. They're, oh, you were visited by a Soukaneer. So it's this. We need to have a reason and an explanation for it. Before, you know, the secular world came in and said, okay, this is. You bumped your knee and the bruise turns this. Before all of that happened, they were in the country trying to figure it out for themselves.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:37] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:43:38] So it's kind of cool. Yeah, it's kind of cool.
John Dehlin [00:43:40] Yeah, it is cool. And the other thing that comes to my mind is when I think about religion at its worst, it's trying to be the meal. It's trying to say your whole life and your whole life's purpose is to be religious. I think that's when religion goes wrong. When religion's like the salt. Like, kind of like Jesus said, you know, when religion is the salt to the meal and your life is the meal, but religion is just the salt or the flavoring, then it can just be a positive support to a life. And it sounds like by having. By being converts, your parents and your family, and then by having these other multicultural beliefs, it's like salt and spice, where it's not the meal of your life, but it's just there to enhance your life. I mean, so far, it's sounding like a very positive experience.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:44:33] Yeah. And I've never heard of it that way, but that's exactly what it was. It was seasoning of the meal. But also. And again, this wasn't directly said to me, but it was understood. Some people don't like salt, some people like pepper, so their seasoning might be a little different, but that's okay because we're all still eating. There was no dogmatic, this is it. And if you don't go this way, it was, everybody needs to connect in some way. And as long as they are connecting in a positive way, they are a good person. Look at them. Look at their character. And we have the gospel, so we have this, but other people might have something else. It was never looked down on or looked up at at all. And I'm just looking back, I'm so blessed to have had that upbringing of it's just salt. It's not who you are what you are. It is. This is who you are. This enhances who you are. That's right.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:51] And it sounds like there was so much richness in your home, even from what you've shared about your dad talking about the power of thoughts, how you think and what you say, your words, and then your mom talking about other People wisdom in meeting people where they are not expecting more than, you know, where they are in that moment. Like, really sound psychology, honestly, sound psychology,
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:46:18] before we even knew that it was sound psychology, it just was so healthy. I tell people all the time. We grew up with the secret before the secret came out. Positive thinking was everything in my household. It was everything. And so I was raised with the mentality that anything I want to do in life, I can do. Anything I want in life, I can have. I might need to work a little harder. I might need to position myself in a different way, but anything, literally, if I said I wanted to be president of the United States, that is something that is possible. And my parents always said and supported me in that thought of whatever you want to be. So it was just interesting growing up in a world that doesn't think that way or speak that way, but I'm in my house, and this is what I'm being told.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:20] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:47:22] And my dad used to always say, too, no one can rain on your parade unless you allow them. I think that's Roosevelt. Eleanor Roosevelt, I think, said that. So he would always say, that's their problem. Don't make their problem your problem. And so it was interesting being raised on the east coast, where there's a lot of diversity in thought, race and culture. And, you know, people always talk about colorblindness or not seeing race. And I can speak to that upbringing because we. It was all about character. And my parents never asked what race somebody was or what religion they were never. We were the minority in religion, so they never said, is this person lds? It was always, I want to meet their parents. Are they good people? And if they're good people with good character, it didn't matter what race they were, what religion they were, what culture they were. So it was a great beginnings for a child to think, let me look at people as humans.
John Dehlin [00:48:45] Yeah, I love it. Sounds like maybe an ideal experience, weirdly, because you're not in Utah, you're not in Idaho or Arizona, where Mormonism is most prominent and thriving. And that seems like that was a really good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's talk about how Mormonism affected your life through your teen years.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:49:07] You know, so.
John Dehlin [00:49:09] Or if it did, you know, it
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:49:11] did in the sense of being lds. And again, we were on the east coast, so we. I was one of four kids in my high school that was lds, and one of them was my sister. So they're. There was not a lot of LDS children. We would drive very far to go to the Stake Center. I remember for conference, it was like two hours, hour and a half away because we didn't have it on TV. Our ward was 45 minutes away. So we drove. It was more of a commitment than just, I'm gonna wake up, roll out of bed and go right there. My dad would go to the temple every weekend and this was a 3 1/2, 4 hour drive one way.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:05] Wow.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:50:06] Every weekend he would go on Saturday, D.C. he would drive there.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:11] And where were you living, just to be clear?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:50:13] So we lived in Long Island.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:16] So Long Island.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:50:17] And then we moved from Long Island. My father. So my father was in the NFL in 83. Around the time that he converted, he retired and he started a business. Tried to start a business with his brother. He put in all of his money and the business failed completely. So we were in Long island, had a home, pool in the backyard. Went from that four kids to completely bankrupt and had to move to a basement apartment in Brooklyn. And so that was a very. It's an eye opening experience for me now because my parents never let it touch us. It was always, yeah, we're moving, we're just moving and we're in this basement apartment in Brooklyn from Long Island. But for us as children, it wasn't look down. We didn't say like, why don't we have a pool anymore? It was just, this is our new phase in life. My father was always very optimistic. So we went from there to Cherry Hill. To Cherry Hill, Cherry Hill, N.J. and we lived there for a little bit and then we moved to Pennsylvania. And that was the longest place we were was in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania, okay. But I was already in seventh grade,
Margi Dehlin [00:51:53] so kind of middle school. Middle school you were in.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:51:56] All right, I was in middle school. The interesting thing is though, is that growing up I went to a lot of different schools. I was at the same school from, I believe in kindergarten. I went to like a Catholic Montessori place. From there I went to a school till second grade. Then I went to a different school for third. I went to another school for fourth. So we, we moved a lot. And I used to bring my dad in as show and tell in my new schools and I would always have these friends the next day. And I thought it was cause I had this great personality, but it was cause he came in to talk about the super bowl and he'd have his helmets. But I was used to transition.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:51] Yeah, that's like a.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:52:51] Because we always had our family, you know, that's your unit. I had my Unit. And so no matter what, we were always good. So that was Brooklyn, Jersey, and then Pennsylvania and then Pennsylvania.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:05] What was your personality like? I'm just curious. Like, would you. Were you outgoing when you moved? Do you remember the moves? Feeling hard at school? Like, what was your experience out in the world? Like, as a. As a. Yeah. And this. This idea of some of those principles playing out, being positive, you know, whatever you're experiencing in your home, when you get out in the world and you're moving from school to school.
John Dehlin [00:53:36] School.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:37] And in these different environments, too. Do you remember that?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:53:43] I do remember. I do remember. And I. I'm. I'm. I don't know the term, but I think I'm an extrovert. Introvert. I think I prefer to. I. I charge my battery by myself. It takes a lot of energy to be around a lot of people. So for me, having my family unit was enough. It was always enough. My parents could move us, but my mom was so focused on family that no matter where we went, no matter what we did, that's what we had. So I was outgoing, but it was because I got my sense of self from my family. And even moving, like I said, my dad would come in, he always did an assembly. And that's all I knew was, okay, I'm the new kid, but by the second or third week, my dad's gonna do an assembly, and then I'm gonna have all these friends. I never equated it to, your dad's a celebrity or we're in New York and he played with the Jets. Never. It was. And my parents never put that on me. They weren't like, your father is this. It was. You're amazing summer, and people wanna be your friend. And so growing up, I just was about family. Yeah, it was all about my family.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:26] Beautiful.
John Dehlin [00:55:28] Beautiful.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:55:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:55:29] Okay. So when we think about your time, your adolescent years and a lot. You've probably heard Mormon stories where people talk about their typical teen years, growing up Mormon. The youth activities, the rules, the types of. The typical things people talk about. Law of chastity, word of wisdom, you know, seminary, and the roles the Church played. As you're trying to figure out those high school years, was it just all positive? Were there bumps? Was it good for you? Was it not good for you? Was it really not even a factor? How would you say the church impacted your years through your senior year of high school?
Teen Years and First Encounters with Church Culture
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:56:13] So I would say the church, through my parents, was amazing. But the first. The first. First time I'd ever experienced moral judgment was at Church. And I didn't know what that felt like or looked like because again, my parents being converts, we have family and friends that are not members. So the moral judgment isn't whether or not you drink coffee. It's are you a good person? Did you scam your best friend out of money? So I just remember I was a volleyball player in school, loved volleyball. And we would have, I don't think they call it mutual anymore, but mutual youth activities. And again, it was a drive, it was 45 minute drive. So I would go to volleyball practice and then from volleyball practice, drive to youth activities. And I remember my young women president at the time telling me that if I could not change my clothes before coming, not to come. And this is the nineties. So it wasn't. Volleyball was like the shorts were down but it wasn't past the knee. And she just said, if you can't. So I went home and told my mom and she went in and said, yeah, don't ever speak to my child again without me being present, number one. And number two, you need to be lucky that she's even coming.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:56] Oh, wow.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:57:57] Yeah, that's.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:58] That family advocacy. Yes. Your family's got you.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:58:02] Yeah. And so it was interesting. And she never, I don't to this day, she's never talked to me without my mom present. Yeah. But that is. I remember thinking, why are my shorts an issue? You know, I was trying to understand why, if I'm going to school, being a great kid, why am I not allowed to be at this youth activity without my kids? Sorry, why am I not allowed to be at this youth activity because of my clothing, when this clothing is what I wear at school.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:56] So it's kind of like, why is this the meat right now? Why is this mattering?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:59:01] Exactly. And I had a very difficult time understanding that I was growing up. I should probably say this too. I was a very precocious child. I asked a lot of questions all the time. And I mean, I was that child at 5 who asked my mom, why is your. Why does Santa's handwriting on the presents look like yours?
Margi Dehlin [00:59:29] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:59:30] I mean, I was that kid.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:32] You love it.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:59:33] I was that kid. And so I was always questioning, like, but why? That doesn't make sense. Why, why, why, why? And so anyway, that was my experience. We did early morning seminary and that was a sacrifice because it wasn't at a seminary building.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:52] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:59:53] We would travel across from the high school.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:59:54] Across from the high school. It wasn't, I believe it started at 6:37. And it was before school. My sister and I drove to 30 minutes to get there, but we went, I went, I graduated. So yeah, it's interesting because my church experience at home, what my parents took from the gospel and taught us was amazing. But then I did feel like when I went to church, sometimes things that were said and done didn't line up to who or what my parents said that we should be.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:37] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:00:38] Do you have examples outside of the shorts? There were, for example, my. Because I changed school so often and we didn't have cell phones, it was very difficult to keep track of people that I became friends with. So I just never did. But I was that person that always had like one friend, two core friends. My sister, one of my sisters is the complete opposite. She always had like 20 friends. So when I moved to Pennsylvania, I became friends with this girl Sarah. Her mother was a chain smoker. When I would go over there, she'd have boxes of Marlboros. She was very. Just the complete opposite. They didn't have religion, but Sarah and I were inseparable. That was someone that my Young women presidency would not allow to come to girls camp back then. And again, I don't know how it was in Utah, but it wasn't every member. Every member missionary, they would say that. But there was a very judgmental thought process in my community growing up in Pennsylvania. But it's interesting because we also had a Boy Scout scandal that happened in our ward and floodlit shout out to them. They have all the information about that. But there was somebody who preyed on some of the boys in our ward and abused them. But he was accepted. But someone like my friend Sarah wasn't.
John Dehlin [01:02:40] So again, he was a priesthood holder who was abusing children. But your friend had a mom who smoked, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:02:50] And again, my parents, my mother was amazing because she, Sarah would come over, I'd go there. My mom was so non judgmental. It wasn't, well, if you hang out with her, you'll start smoking. I never started smoking, but at church, you know, it was this other thing of if you're lds, if you come to church, if you go to the temple, you are already on a higher moral ground. Like you're up here. I think because my parents are converts, they did not have that view at all. Everyone is everyone. And I need to know who my kids are around, period. I don't care if you are the bishop. People are people and I want to make sure who my kids are around. So I just remember being sad that Sarah like You know, she could come to church with me because my parents would let her come, but to go to young women's camp or youth conference, she just wasn't accepted. And so it was. I was being taught two different things.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:04] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:04:05] I have my parents who are saying, no, everybody, let's get together. And then there's a very segregationist type of mentality. On Sundays and Tuesday nights, which was my mutual activities. She was. Sarah was a volleyball player with me. And I remember she went to one activity with me and never came back. So that. That was my. Yeah, that was my experience. And even with the. The abuse, the Boy Scout abuse that happened, we were kind of told that this doesn't happen. Right. So he's an. This guy is an anomaly. People don't do this in the church. And so I, again, in the back of my mind, was always thinking, people are people. You don't know what they're doing. You don't know who they are until you know who they are and you know what they're doing. So, yeah, it wasn't judge off their skin or religion. It was content of their character. That's who they are.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:19] One thing I'm noticing that is so clear is just how, for your story, it is so different than many of the stories I relate to aspects of your story. I grew up back east. My parents are converts, too. But this idea for most people, their family culture is quite merged with what you're experiencing at church. Right. They're kind of one and the same. And in many ways, the family culture operates with some of the reinforcers and controls of the church while you're not at church. Right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:05:55] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:55] But what I'm hearing for you is that your family culture actually differentiated from your experience at church. Right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:06:05] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:05] And that there was power in that. Because what I'm also hearing is so you have different values that are going on at home than what you're experiencing at church. And you. One of the values is that you are connecting to yourself, connecting to your experience, to your own critical thinking. You're being. You're. You're being taught how to think about people.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:06:25] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:25] How to. And that's truly, truly powerful and quite different, I think, from many people's experiences. Would you agree?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:06:35] Yeah, and thank you for putting it that way, because that's exactly what it was. It was a differentiation of how people will say they want to live, but we're actually living it in a way. I mean, my parents, they were very much missionaries and they wanted to spread the gospel. So there are quite A few people on my mom's side who got baptized.
Margi Dehlin [01:07:02] Oh, so interesting.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:07:05] Yes. And it's so interesting because I have an uncle who still drank. He got baptized, and he would be like, yeah, I'm the drinking Mormon. And he would fight people who talked bad about the church, physically fight them, because that makes sense. On my mom's side. So this is the West Indian side. But it made sense to me because I said, this is what works for him, you know, My high school, we were just talking about this last week, my high school graduation. My uncle. This uncle came down. Both my uncles came down, actually. And the first thing they did was pick up beer from up the street. And my parents, I mean, it's kind of crazy to think of now. It was a different time. But my uncles, that's what they did. They drank beer. And so there was no, this is not allowed in my house. Or it was in the fridge. We didn't drink it, but they did. And my Uncle Eddie, he's gonna cook, and he's not gonna cook well without his beer.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:20] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:08:20] So it's just so interesting because looking back, that was my upbringing. There was no you, you can't sit with us mentality ever. It was come as you are, and we're just so grateful you're here, you know? And he threw my party in the basement for my high school graduation. It was just my family and, like, two friends, but he had his beer, we had calypso, and it was just so amazing and so loving. But. But advocacy was huge with my family. And so I always knew. This is what. Well, I say I knew, but my belief was this is what Mormonism is. And my mother especially made sure that I was in that bubble. No one is going to talk about your clothes, your race. That's not going to happen. So I was in a bubble within a bubble, and she made sure that no one popped that bubble.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:29] Wow.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:09:30] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:30] All right, let me. Can I follow up with that?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:09:32] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:33] So how did you experience that in high school? The popping of that bubble? Like, still true in high school, don't bring up race, don't bring up clothes, don't bring up. Or whatever the case may be? Was it easy? Like, did you experience life that way and let's just maybe move to high school during your high school years as well? Or did something start penetrating that bubble a bit? What was your experience?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:10:02] No, nothing penetrated. My mom. My mother is amazing. She's just amazing. And, I mean, it was interesting because I became my mother when it came to advocacy. And no One is going to mess with my family. But I remember telling my siblings, and they remember, don't tell mom what's happening unless you want something done. Like, if you just want to talk about it, talk to me. Don't tell mom unless you want something done. So it's interesting because when I was growing up, we talk about bubbles. When I was nine years old, eight years old, I still believed in Santa. And I remember being on a bus and this kid, he was about 12, 13, saying, Santa wasn't real. And I went home and told my mom, mom, this kid on the bus said that Santa isn't real. And she. The next morning, she put on her robe, went on the bus and said, which one of you kids told my kid that Santa isn't real? And the fact that Santa isn't real is what's so messed up about this story. Because she. She knows.
John Dehlin [01:11:32] She knows.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:11:34] But she said, which one of you kids? And he, you know, and she said, do not tell my children this. I think to this day, that kid probably believes in Santa still because my mom scared the crap out of him. But that was my mom. There was. We. This is a bubble. She also used to tell us, too, no matter what your sibling is doing out there, you have their back. If they're wrong, you talk to them when you get home. But you never gang up on family out there. We are a core group. So we. I was very much. Because we're on the east coast, clothes wasn't really an issue. You know, standards wasn't really an issue at school. I do remember at one point, I started getting bullied. This was in high school because of a boy I was dating. His ex girlfriend was in love with him. And these girls were rough. They were no joke. And they were known for jumping people and putting people in hospitals. And I remember one weekend, my uncle's coming into town, both of them. And we went for a drive. And I was so excited because I love when my uncles came to visit. They're just in Brooklyn, and this is to Pennsylvania. And we drove around, we went to the basketball courts. Never got out of the car, but rolled down the window. We just drove around. We went to just all these places that I don't normally go to. And that Monday, I remember, the girls wouldn't even look at me. They wouldn't even look at me. They completely left me alone. And I never KNEW this was 10th, 11th grade. I never knew why. I just said, maybe they woke up and decided the guy's not gonna get back with the girl. And they're gonna leave me alone. After I got married, I was telling Chris this story to explain to him why I am the way I am and I don't like bullies. And my mom was there, says, oh, I took care of that. I said, what do you mean you took care of it? She says, oh, I sent your friend to tell those girls that we were part of the Trinidad mafia and I would not kill them, but I would maim them. So every time they hobbled, that'll do it. They would think of you.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:23] Wow.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:14:24] And she said, and that's why your uncles came down that weekend so that they could see your family. Oh, and I'm like an adult now. I had no idea. But that was how my mom kept our bubble. Yeah, there was a bubble where it's like, you're not gonna mess with my children. Adult or child, it does not matter. You're not gonna affect their self esteem. You're not gonna affect their self worth. That's at school and at church.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:55] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:14:56] I'm the one who gives them the self esteem and self worth. And I've worked too hard to allow you, whether that is in gospel doctrine or whether that's in third period for you to take that away from them. So my mom was the hugest advocate and still is for me and for my siblings. And that gave me the courage growing up to speak out and know I'm going to say what's right and wrong, because my mother instilled that in me. And no matter what, I have my family. Yeah, always.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:43] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:15:45] So, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:45] Wow. Wow. It's really something, your story.
Orthodox Beliefs Through High School Graduation
John Dehlin [01:15:51] Let me ask you about your beliefs as you sort of are graduating from high school. There's kind of these typical Mormon beliefs, like the Mormon Church is God's one true church, that other churches aren't God's church, that Joseph Smith was God's one true prophet, that only Mormon priesthood matters, that baptisms in other churches don't count, that marriages in other churches don't count in heaven. The Book of Mormon is the word of God, that it's scripture, that other people play church, but we're the one legitimate church, that sort of thing. And the heavenly Father hears your prayers. And Jesus literally died for our sins and we'd be resurrected. How. How orthodox were your Mormon beliefs? Let's just say by the time you graduate from high school versus unorthodox.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:16:45] I would say it was on a spectrum where I, again, I went to seminary, went to church. I was like every normal kid where I Didn't like going to church. It was like, oh my goodness. And this is before it was two hours. I don't know the youngins remember, but we had three hour church then. So I wasn't orthodox loved church, but I believed the Book of Mormon. I had done seminary. I was very studious in everything I did. So, you know, straight A student because I like to do, I liked homework, I liked schoolwork. But I was the same with the church as well. So I would get the gospel doctrines manual and I would check on what the Book of Mormon is saying and do that. So I had a, I want to say a foundational belief in things being true. But I was never in the camp and this is, my whole family was never in the camp of one true church in the sense of you're going to go somewhere else if you don't follow this. It's the one true church because we have all the keys but somehow we were able to also put in there. But you can believe the way you believe as long as you're a good person. So I don't know if we just didn't think much into it but it was very nuanced. It was a very nuanced thinking of the Book of Mormon's true. Joseph Smith is a prophet. My youth conferences would go to Palmyra so I would visit Palmyra all the time, but I never dated a member. All my boyfriends were non members of different things, Catholic, Christian. So they knew my beliefs but I was not trying to convert them and vice versa. I did have one ex in my senior year in high school who did join the church, but then he ended up leaving once we broke up. I'm sure he, you know, stopped going maybe two weeks after we broke up or something but. But my parents were, they just weren't orthodox in that way of your boyfriends have to be this and they can't do that. You have to be 16 in group date. They just weren't that way. They were, my parents were not the parents that said you can do whatever but your curfew's at 11 as long as it's with church friends. They were, I wanna know where you're going, who you're going with and I don't care if you're out till one, there's no curfew, but I'm gonna know where you are and who you are associating with. Another thing, a lot of these come from my dad. Another thing my dad used to say was be careful who you hang out with because that shows who you are. He says, if you hang around with bank robbers long enough, you will end up driving the getaway truck. So it was always about association. Who are you surrounding yourself with? And it just didn't matter what the label was. So I was active because I was at home, but I wasn't huge true believing member in the sense of this is it.
John Dehlin [01:20:41] Okay. So this kind of gives us a really good sense of your Mormon upbringing and your family's culture through high. So, you know, for the traditional orthodox Mormon, there's this pressure to send your kids to byu. And, you know, a lot of kids want to go to BYU because they want to find their eternal companion. Right. And they want the religious upbringing that they didn't get. What we call in the mission field, which is a weird little term. Anything outside of Utah basically is called the mission field. It's not Zion. You're laughing while you're laughing.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:21:18] I've never heard that before.
John Dehlin [01:21:19] Oh, no.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:21:20] I did not know I was in the mission field.
John Dehlin [01:21:22] I grew up in the mission field. Wow. And literally, in Mormonism, the mission field is not Utah. Everywhere in the world, but not Utah. It's a mission field. Yeah. Wow. I did not know that. Yeah. That's the thing. So, anyway, so were you, like, dying to go to BYU to find your eternal companion or not? And, you know, were you, like, I got to go on a mission or find my missionary, get married in the temple, or not? And if not, why? I'm curious.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:21:47] You know, it's funny, because nobody who knows me would ever think that I was dying to find an eternal companion. That just wasn't. Wasn't my thought process. I. Again, I'm gonna keep saying this was very, very blessed because not just my parents, but my whole family, my grandmother, everyone stressed education. They were just always. And maybe because I dated a lot where it was, marriage will come when you find the right person. But when I was looking at colleges, it was not to find a person in any way, shape, or form. What's interesting is I had planned to go to University of Miami. It's where my dad went. He had started to work with some players down there. So from 16 to 17, I would fly down with him to University of Miami. Butch Davis was the coach then I spoke with Butch. He's like, as soon as you get down here, I have a job for you. My senior year of high school, we moved to the home that my parents ended up staying in forever. So I was in one school from seventh, eighth, ninth, 10th, 11th grade. And then my senior Year we moved to a whole different school. And so when we moved there, my first school did not have a football team. And when I talk about. I talked about Remember the Titans earlier. I am that little girl from Remember the Titans. I'm so excited.
John Dehlin [01:23:24] Tell us. For those of us who haven't seen it, tell us.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:23:26] Remember the Titans. Great film. If you haven't seen it, see it tonight. There is a little girl whose father is the coach of the team that is being integrated, and she is on the sidelines yelling, black coach. Like, get it together.
John Dehlin [01:23:42] Black coach or white coach?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:23:43] No. So Denzel Washington is the black coach. And then there's the assistant coach who's white, and his daughter is. I mean, she's like a drill sergeant. That was me growing up. Football was everything for me. But my first high school did not have a football team. So when I got to my senior year, that school not only had a football team, but a very good one. Where people were, you know, colleges would come out. So I remember going to the football coach and saying, listen, I'm going to be working with the University of Miami football team once I get accepted. I haven't even gotten accepted yet. So I would like to get some practice, and I would like to be the football manager. And it was his first year as coach, and he said, what does a football manager do? And I said, whatever you need me to do. So I would film practices. I was at every single game on the sidelines. It was a dream for me. Dream for me, because that's the closest I could get to football in the 90s. They're not letting girls on the field. So I was right there, and it was like they were all my big brothers. Loved, loved, loved it. And to this day, my high school, Downingtown, still has a football manager program that I started.
Margi Dehlin [01:25:15] That's amazing.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:25:17] So when I applied for, um, my goal was to study law. Um, that kind of came from my mother because she said that I love to argue. So she always used to say, you'll make a great lawyer. And as I learned what a lawyer was, I was like, yeah, that's totally me. So I was gonna study law at UM and work for the football team. I got accepted. I remember applying to Penn State, their law, whatever, pre law school, and byu. I wasn't planning on going to byu. I just did it because I think my parents said, just apply to BYU as well. And I don't know how it is now, but back then you had to pay for every application you put in. So. So I put in for that. And I got accepted to all three. And I went into the room and told my father and my mom, I got into University of Miami. I can't believe it. I'm ready to go. And my dad looked at me and said, you're not going to University of Miami. None of my girls are going to go to University of Miami. My son can go if he wants to play football, but you guys aren't going to University of Miami. And I was shattered because this was something that we had talked about for two and a half years. He was there with Butch Davis. He was there, and he was the
Margi Dehlin [01:26:53] guy that was like, don't limit yourself or don't say that. And then all of a sudden, you're like, wait, are you giving me a no right now?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:27:00] Right. And so that thinking of anything. Anything's possible, pops in, and I did my first argument, and I said, dad, I will go anywhere you want me to go for two years. But after that two years, I'm free to go wherever I want to go. And he says, okay, fair enough. He wanted me to go to byu. He now admits that he was worried about it being a party school. Um, and he wanted us to have a soft landing is what he calls it. So I ended up going to BYU my first year Provo.
John Dehlin [01:27:40] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:27:42] I, again, was not planning on it. It was not because it was, you know, I want to find someone there. Religious school. It was literally because I need to put in my two years before I could go to the school that I really wanted to go to.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:55] Right. To get where you wanted to go.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:27:58] But I truly believe everything happens for a reason. And there were things that happened during that first semester that if I was anywhere else, I don't think it would have. I don't know who I would be right now. And so I'm very grateful that I did go to byu. Coming from the east coast, it was kind of nice to go to school. And they say a prayer before your test. I just wasn't used to that. So it's like, oh, this is kind of cool. Let's bring the spirit in before I flunk this American Heritage test. So tough. American Heritage was horrible.
John Dehlin [01:28:46] I was in American Heritage ta, by the way.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:28:48] You were?
John Dehlin [01:28:49] I was the teaching assistant. Not when you were there, but when I was there. Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:28:52] I've been trying to remember this Professor Frank Fox. Frank Fox.
John Dehlin [01:28:59] Wow. You liked him?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:29:01] I loved him.
John Dehlin [01:29:02] Oh, really?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:29:03] But not the tests. I loved his presentations, but I don't know what the heck it was. It wasn't sinking I was. I loved his presentations. But then I would get the test. I'm like, where did this come from? What are these words? What is happening? That was tough. And I found out later that most people took it their senior year because it was just a tough class.
John Dehlin [01:29:32] So anyway, just a little note about Frank Fox. That's awesome. I don't think he's a B we anymore. But, like, And I don't mean anything by this other than just to give you the information when Donald Trump ran the first time, when he became the nominee. Let me back up. So American Heritage, the way I would describe it, is like conservative politics for Mormons. In other words, it's basically a class that was designed probably by people who loved Ezra Taft Benson way back in the 70s. And it's like the Constitution is of God. The founders were inspired. America is the one true democracy in America.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:14] It's a chosen country.
John Dehlin [01:30:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I loved it. But there was this real emphasis on absolute truth and fighting moral relativism and that there is a truth. They called it the good. And that, you know, you know, and that America was founded on the good, but other countries maybe weren't. And they talked about the French Revolution and how they got rid of religion and communism and all those societies are inferior.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:30:43] My mind is blown right now because I remember writing the Good.
Margi Dehlin [01:30:47] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:30:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they had this tree, and the tree represented the good, but the French Revolution chopped down the tree, so they weren't based on the good. And then they had Robespierre that chopped everyone's heads off. And anyway, Frank Fox is a legend. He's a Stanford level PhD. Brilliant guy, but very conservative, you know, certainly not a class that would have taught you a lot of sensitivities, for example, to multicultural issues or that was very sympathetic to social programs or Democratic, you know, more Democratic, Democratic Party initiatives. It would have been critical of welfare and of social programs and of, like, the ballooning budget. And again, I'm not saying what's good or what's bad. I'm just describing the class.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:31:33] That's what the class.
John Dehlin [01:31:33] I'm describing Frank Fox.
Margi Dehlin [01:31:35] And there's always also just a lot of historical erasure, 100% in that class for it to be American Heritage. Right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:31:43] Yeah. And it's interesting because it was. It was a prerequisite. Like, you had to take it when I was there.
John Dehlin [01:31:51] It was required.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:31:52] It was required. You could not not take it. Just like Book of Mormon religion, you had to take Book of Mormon. It's so crazy because that was the first class. I remember him showing the clip of Sophie's Choice.
John Dehlin [01:32:05] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:06] Yes.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:32:06] And that stuck with me because I'd never heard of Sophie's Choice. I grew up in a positive household. We weren't even allowed to watch Goonies really, because. Because they were making fun. And the bullying in the beginning, I remember we started watching it and they made Chunk, you know, Chuck do the dance, and my dad turned it off and said, nope, that's. We don't do that in this household. So to go from that to Sophie's Choice, where I'm like, what is happening?
John Dehlin [01:32:37] Well, I was just gonna say one last thing. When Donald Trump ran for president the first time, the time he got elected, Frank Fox emerged and he actually released a video on Facebook saying, I'm a conservative. Don't vote for Donald Trump.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:32:55] What?
John Dehlin [01:32:56] And it was really a mind blowing thing because I'd gone decades and had never heard from him. And then all of a sudden he does this huge social media push and he hired professional videographers and he did a public service announcement as like BYU's American Heritage Professor, Frank Fox saying, donald Trump will destroy democracy as we know it. Which was really surprising to me. I just thought you might find that interesting.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:33:22] Well, it's so interesting because I talk about that class and I say to people how difficult it was. And I've been trying to remember the professor's name because he was very well known. So it's just so funny that now Fox. Yes, that's who it was.
John Dehlin [01:33:38] Okay. Anyway, I took us on a derailment, but BYU would have been part of so many of my listeners experiences. Sorry, not byu. American Heritage.
Margi Dehlin [01:33:47] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:33:48] So I just, I thought it'd be fun to kind of walk down that memory lane.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:33:51] Yeah. And. And it's interesting because I took. I took American Heritages. I remember taking Book of Mormon.
John Dehlin [01:33:59] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:33:59] And I loved Book of Mormon because again, I was one of those. I was the Hugh Nibley type of person who. I wanted these books and I wanted to be able to tie it. Not evidence, but to ground myself in what I'm learning. So I remember having this Hugh Nibley book while reading the Book of Mormon so that I could place what was happening during that time. And when Lehi came over, what was this like? And this? I mean, that was me. So I enjoyed Book of Mormon, I enjoyed saying prayers before class. But I remember coming into BYU, very black and white, thinking I was very much. Even though I accepted, I would say things like, I would never do this or they should never do that. So I started realizing. I just remember my roommate and I talking about suicide for some reason. And I remember telling her I would never forgive someone who did that to me, as if it would be to me. But she was saying, you know, people go through things. And I just remember saying, I would never, ever forgive someone who did that. How dare they? Whatever. So I had this understanding of meet people where they are. But I also had this. My own. I don't want to say moral compass, because it wasn't really moral compass. It was more what I felt was right and wrong. And you can do that, but this isn't. Whatever. I say that. Because I came back for Thanksgiving break and I had a strong impression to reach out to Sarah, my best friend for all those years, and invite her over for Christmas break. And the week went, came and went. She had been put in a home for girls while I was still. While we were still in high school. Cause her family environment, she didn't really have a father, her mother and stepfather. The environment wasn't good. And so she went to a home. And when I last saw her, she was thriving. She's like, I love this place. All of that. So I thought of her and just didn't reach out. Went back to byu and maybe we
John Dehlin [01:36:45] should provide a little trigger warning.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:36:47] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:36:47] Yeah, yeah, go ahead. I'll just say that. Do you want to take care? No, no, no. Just everyone. We're about to talk about suicidality. So for those who need to take care. Little sugar warning. Go ahead.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:36:57] Self care.
John Dehlin [01:36:57] Go ahead.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:36:57] Yes. I got back to BYU and a week later got a phone call that she had taken her life. It taught me right then two things. First of all, never say never, especially when it comes to other people. Never say I would never, or they should never try to be empathetic and feel where the other person comes from. The other thing I learned in that moment was to always follow my impressions, which dug me deeper into my LDS beliefs.
John Dehlin [01:37:37] Cause you'd ignored. I guess I'd ignored it. That thought that you might reach out to her.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:37:41] Yeah.
Difficult Experiences and Leaving for College
Margi Dehlin [01:37:42] And then something traumatic.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:37:43] Something traumatic happened. Sorry, this is.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:47] Yeah,
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:37:49] I blamed myself for a long time for that because. And I was only 17. She was 17. The questions of what if? I had followed that prompting. What if I told her, come over for Christmas. What if. It was very difficult. And I remember in that moment saying, I will never get an impression about something and not follow up with it. So I put a lot of pressure on myself at that moment to make sure that anything that heavenly Father is telling me anything the Holy Ghost is telling me, I do not ignore it. It's a lot to put on an 18 year old. But I was very. So when I say BYU was really great, I was so devastated. And I'm grateful for the spirituality. And they have the boys coming. They're your home teachers to train them for missions. So I had home teachers coming to visit me to make sure I'm okay. I was very, very grateful for that. That community at that time.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:39:16] Yeah, I see. Yeah. And that probably made your time at BYU harder after that.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:39:22] Well, yeah, I didn't come back. So this. This has actually nothing to do with what happened. But my mom, when I was 16, we went up to Niagara Falls. It was my whole family. My father wasn't there, and my aunt, her sister and her three kids. So there are nine kids and my mom and my aunt. And we were playing in a little pond area before we got to Niagara Falls. We stopped to eat and a police officer showed up out of nowhere screaming at my mother, asking for id. And long story short, she was abused, like police brutality with us there. He arrested her. He said that for child endangerment. My mom said, what are you talking about? You know, I want a CID. He was horrible, horrible person. He's like 6 foot 5. My mom's like 5 foot nothing. But he had put handcuffs on her, and she was wearing a braid and tied the braid around the handcuffs. So she was like this. And it slipped a disc in her back. Long story short, my mom ended up saying, you know, whatever you guys need, we can pay bail. My husband played for the jets and we have friends who play for the Buffalo Bills or we know people. And once she said that, they let her go. So for me, that was something that happened when I was 16.
John Dehlin [01:41:14] Did y' all end up pressing charges or getting the police officer disciplined?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:41:18] Yeah. So we actually took him to court and it was a really long process. They ended up issuing an apology. The judge. I remember saying, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. To my mother. So we did follow through with that. It was a different time for sure. I think it would have been a bigger deal nowadays than then.
John Dehlin [01:41:50] This is the 90s, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:41:52] This was the 90s?
John Dehlin [01:41:52] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:41:53] Like, it was 96.
John Dehlin [01:41:54] And if y'. All. If your dad hadn't have been an NFL football player. Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:41:57] Who. I mean, that's the thing is he was. He wasn't even playing anymore, but just throwing that out there of, let me have a phone call. He backed off, you know, they were like, okay, let's let them go. But I say all that to say that when I. After my fall semester at byu, my mom had to get surgery on her back because of that. And so I came home to take care of my siblings while she was recovering. And I just never went. Never went back to byu, but I came back home.
John Dehlin [01:42:35] And was that partially because you just didn't love BYU or just because you wanted to be closer to family or.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:42:40] I wanted to be closer to family. I didn't love byu. Yeah, I didn't love byu. And honestly, at the time, I don't think I could have put my finger on it of why. But.
John Dehlin [01:42:56] But did you feel racial stress or tension at byu?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:43:02] So I did, but I think in different ways than what the black menaces and people like that are experiencing now. It was veryso. I had a friend that I had met at BYU the first week we were there, and we became really good friends. And like I said before, I'm not someone who has 30 friends. I have those 12 core friends. And this guy became one of those people. We had lost touch as school year went on and we were having a lot of work. And I remember running into him with a new group of friends. So he was with a new group of friends, white guy. And he saw me and was like, yo, yo, yo, Summer, what's up? And I did not know what he was doing. I was like, hey, how you doing? And he just kept talking this way. And I realized as he was talking, it was because he's with his white friends and I'm his black friend. And so now he needs to speak in a certain way. To me, that's what I saw more
John Dehlin [01:44:26] or less at byu.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:44:27] At byu, it was this uncultured. I don't. All I've seen is on tv. So I'm going to treat her in this way because this is what I've seen on tv.
John Dehlin [01:44:40] Because many Mormons growing up in Utah, Idaho and Arizona will have reached their senior year of high school having never really met a black person before. That's how white so many areas of Utah, Idaho and Arizona can be. That's just reality.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:44:55] Yeah. And I didn't know that growing up on the east coast, we just even going to byu. I didn't look around and say, wow, there's a lot of white people here. I just didn't think that way. I also, again, growing up the way I grew up with my father, my mother's best friend is a Hollywood actor. They are now married, but he was my mom's best friend growing up. And so I would go on Hollywood sets. So my upbringing was one of the of privilege of being around certain people, different diversities without realizing it. So I did not recognize what that looks like. Even coming to Utah.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:51] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:45:52] I learned early how to code switch. I could be anywhere, any place. You just learn how to move in society. So coming to byu, I didn't think. I didn't feel like I stood out at all until people talked to me. And then I realized that they saw me as different and I didn't know how to handle that.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:46:21] And so did that make you feel, once you realized that was going on, that there was that undercurrent that made you less interested in staying?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:46:29] Yeah, there was an undercurrent there because what happened with Sarah happened. My Thanksgiving break and then winter break. I don't know what a second semester would have even looked like. I just know I did not feel like it was home. It didn't feel like home to me. And I have been to too many places in my life up until that point that felt like home when it wasn't. So to me, I wanted to go home and I wanted to be closer to home. So when my mom said, I'm having this surgery, I said, I'm gonna come home. And it felt great to be home, but I couldn't put my finger on it at the time.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:13] Yeah, got it.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:47:14] You know?
John Dehlin [01:47:14] Got it.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:16] Yeah. And you had a call home. I mean, your mom's surgery, in a way, was as much as you have talked about your family being core and all the. You had a call home, and if she. I don't know, I can imagine if she needed help. You were like, hey, I'm there.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:47:33] Absolutely. Absolutely. Because it's always about family.
John Dehlin [01:47:35] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:47:36] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:47:37] So what'd you end up doing? What path did you end up taking if it wasn't the byu return missionary, temple, marriage path.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:47:45] So I come home and. And my dad still remembers our deal. So I end up applying to suu.
John Dehlin [01:47:53] Tell us what that is.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:47:56] Southern Virginia svu.
John Dehlin [01:48:00] Right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:48:00] Svc.
John Dehlin [01:48:01] Svc.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:48:02] At the time, Southern Virginia College, not svc. It was a college then set up
John Dehlin [01:48:08] by Mormons in Virginia to give a BYU experience. Even though it wasn't endorsed by the church.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:48:15] Yes, but it was meant to give a BYU experience on the East Coast. So I applied. I got a scholarship for volleyball academic. I went down early, and I remember even there, again, I can't think of a single person that wasn't LDS. I'm just trying to remember. Oh, no, it was 100% LDS students. And I remember I went early because volleyball practice and stuff. So I was there during the summer, and I met this girl who was so nice, and she says, you know, come up to my dorm. And so I went to her dorm, and it was this really big. It was just her. And she had a huge Confederate flag hanging on her wall. It was huge. It was so big. And she's like. She. I think when I went to her room, she kind of realized. Cause I didn't say anything. I didn't think anything of it. But then. But it was so big. And I remember it's so odd. It was so. It was like her whole wall, and it was a big room. But I think she just. Just in that moment was like, oh, crap, you know, summer K. Fret flag. So she starts to. This was my school flag. You know, it doesn't mean anything. It's just. It was my school flag, and it makes me think of home. So I put this flag up and I'm like, awesome, girl. Do you. You know, that's great. But I remember how, again, here I am. I'm not putting any stalk into what's happening, but the person with me.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:05] Yes.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:50:06] Is again showing me how different I am because she felt this need to apologize. And I walked away thinking, oh, yeah, I guess. I guess I can understand why. I mean, it's a Confederate flag. But I wouldn't have even thought.
John Dehlin [01:50:23] I mean, symbol of slavery, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:50:25] Yeah, but I. I wouldn't even have thought of it. I just would never have gone back to her room. Because that's weird. I mean, why is the flag so big? But it was another kind of reminder. And then two days before school started, I was talking to. I think it was a school counselor or somebody and telling them about how I want to go to law school. And they said, that's great, but you do know that you'll have to stay in Virginia because we're not accredited. And I said, you're not what? And they said, no, we're not accredited, but we should be by the time that you graduate. And I said, no. I packed up my stuff and went home before school even started. So it was a. Two strikes. You're out. I said, dad, I tried, but not.
John Dehlin [01:51:17] You probably dodged a bullet, honestly.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:19] Yeah. Yeah, probably.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:51:22] Yeah. It was so small then. It was. I mean, there were not a lot of students.
John Dehlin [01:51:27] It's like a youth conference. Yeah. Really? It was like getting a fly. It was so, so small.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:51:32] And, yeah, it was an experience I was able to leave because I said, guys, I'm not staying in Virginia for law school. So.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:44] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:51:44] If it's not accredited outside of Virginia, how about we not go here? And so my parents were okay with that.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:52] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:51:52] So that was it.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:53] Yeah.
College, Career, and Expanding Worldview
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:51:54] So have you had some people on the show from D.C. probably, yeah. Yeah. Hopefully SVU by then because it did turn into university and it is accredited now. But then from there, I applied to Syracuse. I actually changed majors while I was home trying to figure out what school I was going to go to next. And I said, you know what? I want to work in the NFL. And they won't let me be a coach. They won't let me on the field. I can do pr. And so that's why I changed my major was just so I can work in football.
John Dehlin [01:52:34] You had already worked as an intern or something before. Okay, not yet.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:52:37] That was when I got. So I applied to Syracuse, Newhouse Communications, and I got accepted.
John Dehlin [01:52:42] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:52:43] And it was nice because it was close to home.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:45] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:52:46] Three and a half hour drive. But I loved that experience because this is now my first real college experience from byu.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:56] Yes.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:52:57] And it was. It was nice to see people making their own choices. At byu, I had a card that you had to swipe if you were getting in after midnight. You swipe that card a little bit too much after midnight and you get a call from the bishop randomly. There's no alcohol, there's no smoking, and that's great.
John Dehlin [01:53:21] But at BYU curfews, you can't have people in your room.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:53:24] Right.
John Dehlin [01:53:24] Men or boys past a certain time.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:53:26] Exactly. But at Syracuse, I can choose my friends due to their character, because if they want to drink, they're drinking. If they're smoking. So I'm able to look at people and say, that's not my crowd, that's my crowd. Instead of people being told what to do. And then you don't really know who they are. So Syracuse was an amazing experience for me because it was my first college experience and I wasn't doing lines of coke. I wasn't like, I was still holding to these beliefs. I wasn't active. I was active when I'd visit home, but I never went to the Syracuse War Institute or anything like that, nothing like that. So I wasn't active, but I still had this moral compass of, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do that. I had friends that did, but they were good people. So it was nice. It was nice to be in that atmosphere of real Worlds, the real worlds. How am I gonna judge this person and how I wanna be around them?
John Dehlin [01:54:34] It's one of the really divergent things between your story and most of the people that we interview. And that's because what the Mormon Church has learned now is that if kids don't go to one of the BYU's, I'd say 80% or more leave the church because they do, you know, try drinking or smoke or have sex or whatever, and they meet super cool, interesting, thoughtful, moral people of all different traditions. And then they realize, wait a minute, I was in a bubble. Like the, the world is big and beautiful. I'm going to date who I want, I'm going to sleep with who I want, I'm going to experiment how I want, and they leave the church. So, like, your experience is unique because you defied the odds in the sense that you end up, you know, spoiler alert, circling back. But Syracuse didn't destroy your, you know, your affiliation with the church.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:55:27] No, not at all. And I was always cognizant of if. Cause I drank, I was not a smoker, didn't do drugs, nothing like that. But I would socially drink with my friends and I was always made sure that they knew my family was Mormon. But I'm not active because I wanted to make sure that people never looked at me as the standard of what LDS was. So I was always cognizant of that. I'd say, yeah, I was raised Mormon or my family is, but I never walked around with that label when I was not active. And so it was a great experience because I was able to learn who I am and what I believe myself. So, yeah, that was my Syracuse experience.
John Dehlin [01:56:23] And I'll just also note a difference. Like if I, the way I was raised, which was pioneer ancestry, never tried alcohol, like, you know, virgin when I got married, all that. Like, if I had gone to University of Texas and wasn't active and had drank alcohol or whatever, partied, I would have been constantly living with this guilt and shame that I was not living the word of wisdom or I was not living the law of chastity and I wasn't attending church. You didn't. That's how that guilt and shame would have eaten me alive. Yeah, somehow because of your less traditional upbringing, it sounds like that wasn't what you experienced. You just enjoyed college.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:57:03] I enjoyed college and I enjoyed my friends and I enjoyed dating. I, I, I, I'm able to look back and not regret anything of my life because I live my life. And again, I had parents Who? I mean, obviously, you know, I wasn't calling them drinking, you know, they didn't know all that, but they allowed me to go to Syracuse. They knew my friends. They knew who I was dating at the time. So it was this understanding of I trust Summer to find her way, but I also trust that we've given her enough foundational beliefs that she will make the right choices when she's not around us.
Margi Dehlin [01:57:50] That's right. So.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:57:52] And as a parent, I guess that's really all you can think of. I never thought of the. Of shame or guilt because as long as I was not attending church, there was none of that. So it's interesting that you say that, because I'm now, in this moment, correlating the guilt and shame to the actual institution of. Of the church as opposed to God. God knew what I was doing, Jesus knew what I was doing. But I never felt that guilt and shame with them watching. It was. As long as I don't do it within the confines of the church,
Margi Dehlin [01:58:31] and
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:58:31] I wouldn't, because that's not your value. So I'm not gonna bring what I'm doing here. I'm gonna be inactive over here.
John Dehlin [01:58:39] But that's interesting in the Mormon theological mindset that God wasn't sending the Holy Ghost to make you feel guilt and sadness for your decisions. It was more just you were living your best life and you didn't have the church's conditioning to make you feel
Margi Dehlin [01:58:54] sad and you have space.
John Dehlin [01:58:56] Yeah. Wow. I mean, that's like a. It's like a. You know, like in scientific experiments, they have the control and then the experiment you're. Like a control where you didn't have the conditioning of the church, and thus she didn't have the guilt and shame. Yeah. So what causes the guilt and shame? It's church affiliation and church participation. Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:59:17] So that. I mean, my mind is, again, blown, because I never correlated those two things, but that's exactly what it was. And I still had my spirituality. I still prayed. I just didn't really see that you
John Dehlin [01:59:29] felt good with God.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:30] Absolutely, because that's what I was gonna say.
John Dehlin [01:59:33] Because when you were.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:34] At least when you were talking about concept of God from an early age, when you were talking about it. I don't know if this is true. Correct me, but you were talking about it as part of your home culture, that actually God was created with your mom, with your parents. You talked about meditating, you talked about. So your concept of God actually was at least in some way, formed away from the Mormon God.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:04] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:05] And that's key.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:06] Absolutely. So much so that I didn't even recognize what Mormon God was until I started. You know, the past year. I thought it was what everybody else saw, but we just have the Book of Mormon. We just have the priesthood keys. I thought it was literally the. The same thing. So it's. It's just. That's so interesting, John, that you're putting it that way, because I never. My spirituality never shook.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:39] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:40] You know, and I still got impressions. I still got very strong promises, but it wasn't aligned with the church. It was aligned with my relationship with a higher being.
John Dehlin [02:00:54] Hmm. Wow, that's powerful. It's really interesting, too.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:57] Yeah, that's so. That. That's so, so interesting. And I do want to say, too, really quickly, with my mother's side, they are very. Regardless if it's Catholic, Hindu, Christian, whatever, they believe very strongly in spiritual gifts. And so that helped me. That molded me outside of the Mormon faith as well. Because here I have people who are non LDs who will say, my mother visited me last night in a dream or I saw something. I had an aunt that. When she was a child, they said that we use the term veil in Mormonism, but they. In Catholicism. I remember hearing she was born with a veil over her eyes, which allowed her to see spirits, ancestors. So when I hear these things from pioneers or, you know, those kind of stories, it wasn't just Mormons that that happens to. It wasn't just LDS people. It was like, no, we all have spiritual gifts, gifts, and we can all cultivate it and figure out what they are, but it's not just from the church, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's a divine out there, and we need to connect with that. So. Yeah, it's just. It's so interesting. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:02:32] Okay, so you have that Syracuse experience and. And that's when you got your first NFL gig. Is that right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:02:39] From Syracuse. Yeah. So Syracuse. Syracuse was different too, because for some strange reason, they didn't accept my Book of Mormon credits.
John Dehlin [02:02:50] No sarcasm alert. Yeah, Nor your American Heritage credit, by the way. American Heritage did not ever transfer anywhere.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:02:58] And they make you take a class called African American Studies. So American Heritage, what John was explaining, American Heritage, aas, African American Studies is the complete opposite. The complete opposite. I mean, and I remember after the first day going up to my teacher and saying, my professor and saying, I disagree with 98% of the things that you just said. Is that going to be a problem for me in this class? And he said, as long as you can give Me reasonings for your beliefs, we won't have a problem. So I was that kid that was always like, listen, what's going on? I am the typical Utah Mormon's nightmare because I am so confrontational. So, like, I don't do passive aggressive. And so. So I asked my professor that. He said, no problem. But that class shook a lot of my beliefs and thoughts because I grew up in a conservative household.
John Dehlin [02:04:14] When you say conservative, you mean politically
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:04:15] conservative or politically conservative? Politically conservative. And now I watched your episode on Ezra Taft Benson. That was my father's worldview.
Margi Dehlin [02:04:28] Worldview.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:04:29] Well, that was his prophet.
John Dehlin [02:04:31] Oh.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:04:31] So a lot of what he was saying I remember hearing at home.
John Dehlin [02:04:37] So, like, the Civil Rights movement was a communist plot? Well, that kind of thing.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:04:41] We didn't go that far
John Dehlin [02:04:44] as a thought.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:04:46] But we didn't know that. Right. We didn't know that. What we were taught was, though, that, you know, communism is the biggest threat and it's godless. And a lot of that we were not. I never even knew where the church stood on civil Rights movement. Never knew that. I do remember in church when I was in high school, someone telling me that Martin Luther King was a communist. And I remember thinking, well, why did. I don't care. Why would that matter? But I remember it being said like, so you don't have to follow everything or listen to everything he said because he's a communist Marxist. So anyway, African American studies. I'm in this class, I'm debating with my teacher. It's fun. It's what I do. I love debates. He was very respectful. I was very respectful. But one day he comes in and he's talking about the Black Panther Party. And I knew nothing about the Black Panther Party other than what my father had told me, which is they were kind of, you know, this radical group.
Reassessing History and Political Awakening
John Dehlin [02:06:03] And I was taught they're cop killers. That's what I was taught. Oh, my dad was a policeman in California during the 60s. So for me it wasn't. They were fighting for social justice. It's like, oh, they're cop killers. They're bad. Yeah, yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:06:17] So that's so interesting because that depending on where you are coming from. Right. I never heard cop killer, but because your father, that was his profession. But my dad had a very bad view of Black Panther Party. And so growing up, we didn't really talk about it. But I do remember asking him, growing up why the KKK was allowed to continue. And he said, because everyone has a right to their hate. I'll never forget that. And he Said we might not agree with it, but that is their right under the Constitution to hate. And this is coming from someone who lived with the KKK there.
John Dehlin [02:07:07] Your dad?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:07:07] My father, yeah. So I go to Syracuse, and he's talking about the Black Panther Party, and he says how the FBI infiltrated them and broke them up. And I'm like, no, they didn't. And he's like, yes, they did, Summer. And I said, no, everyone has a right to their hate. The government doesn't get involved. And he's like, I'm going to go through the lesson, and you're going to see what happened. And I found this out, and I was devastated. That was devastating to me. Because there are certain things in your life that you try to know, right? You're like, I know this. And all my life, it was. I know that this hate group is allowed to continue because of the Constitution, and the government does not get involved because of the Constitution. So it kind of felt like, what's real? What's. Wait, what? Because if they can do it to this group, why aren't they doing it to this group? I called my dad. That was probably the first time I'd ever gotten to a fight, an actual fight with him. I was very upset. I was like, dad, why didn't you tell me this? And he just wanted to tell me who the Black Panther Party is, how they did these bombs, and how he had friends and all this stuff that were part of it. I grew up around it some. It was hateful.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:55] And it was still pretty negative.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:08:57] It was still negative, in his view. It was still negative. And he. I got upset because he knew how the FBI had infiltrated and never told me that. So I was upset because I felt like I was in the world now with partial information. And again, I'm a questioner. I'm always asking questions. So I was very upset. Long story short, I get off the phone with him and I call my grandfather, his dad. And my grandfather served in the military. He was part of. He was part of the Deep South. He got land, he fought. He was a educator. But my grandfather had seen some stuff, Right. And so I call him and I say, granddaddy, I need you to tell me about the Black Panther Party. And he said, some. Everything at that time was necessary.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:01] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:10:02] Just like Martin Luther King was necessary. MLK was necessary.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:06] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:10:06] And Malcolm X.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:07] And Malcolm X was necessary.
John Dehlin [02:10:09] And the Black Panthers.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:10:10] Exactly. And so he says. Sorry, that's what I meant. Just like Martin Luther King was necessary, Malcolm X was necessary. But he Says, I'm gonna tell you a story. Me and your grandmother, who I never met, she actually passed before my dad even met my mom. So I never met my grandmother. But he says, you and me and your grandmother were driving the back roads of Alabama, and it was getting dark. And he said, all of a sudden, a car full of the KKK pulled up behind us. And he said, I didn't know what to do. We pulled over and he said, and right behind them, a car full of Black Panther Party members pulled up behind them. And he said, I don't know what happened in those backwoods, but I know that we most likely would not be alive if it wasn't for the Black Panther Party. That taught me there is always another side. There's always another side. It taught me that even if I disagree with somebody, I need. It's so important to understand the why. Why are you like this? Why do you believe this way? And I'm just so grateful for my grandfather for sharing that story. My dad had never heard it before, but to this day, I'm like, no one could tell me the Black Panther Party is a horrible, 100% bad group because they saved my grandfather's life.
John Dehlin [02:11:56] And if I absolutely did try and break them up. Yeah. Infiltrate them and try and break them up.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:12:02] I mean, John, I wish you were there in the class so you could nudge me and say some. No, they did. So I didn't keep raising my hand and argue with my professor.
John Dehlin [02:12:12] I just remember being taught Malcolm X was bad in high school, growing up in Texas and then at byu, of all places, a professor had me read the autobiography of Malcolm X and I felt lied to. I'm like, this guy's amazing. How is it that I was about talking, thought he was evil. Like, it's crazy, but. But also, I'll just say, like, the story of your mom experiencing police brutality.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:12:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:12:32] Completely explains why the Black Panthers.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:34] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:12:35] Would. Would in some instances, fight cops and maybe even kill cops.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:12:39] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:12:39] Because imagine what the cops. Some cops.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:12:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:12:42] Were doing to black people in the 50s and 60s and before. Right. I mean, absolutely. Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:12:48] And that's. That's the thing is my life has such a symmetry to it, I believe, because I was taught to revere cops, to respect cops, just to take that analogy. I was taught to respect them, that they are serving the community, everything positive about police. And then at 16, I experienced this one police officer, and it was race. He was racist. He thought that. You know, my mom was a single parent with all these kids, and it was A horrible day. But it taught me again, labels mean nothing. It is all about the person. Cop can be good and bad. You know, an LDS member can be good, bad. Labels don't matter. So everything has the good and the bad.
John Dehlin [02:13:42] And Republicans can be good, bad, Democrats can be good, bad.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:13:46] Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, Chad. I know that now, like, more than ever, politics is just so ridiculous. But that's the thing is there is no. There's. You know the saying, there's neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. Hey, Shakespeare, shout out to RFM and brush up on your Shakespeare. But, yeah, that's what I was taught. I remember my dad saying that, like, nothing is good or bad, but what you believe and what you put into it. I mean, really, it was all about tapping into the universe. But they. Instead of universe, they said, heavenly Father. So it was this wonderful mix of, you know, everything is great and people are great. You'll meet bad people, but that's not people. So when I heard about the Black Panther Party, and I'm putting the American government, coming from American Heritage on this moral standard kind of a pedestal, right?
Margi Dehlin [02:14:47] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:14:48] This pedestal of America's the chosen country. And we've made mistakes, but we've learned from those mistakes. And the government won't do certain things to find that out. It was just like the Malcolm X autobiography. It's a little devastating. I've been lied to. But once you get past that, you say, okay, I now have a different view of the world and I can move forward with this.
John Dehlin [02:15:19] University can be so important. University experiences, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:15:23] Yes, yes. I mean, I remember. I mean, I was the. Me and this other kid were the most conservative kids in that African American studies class. And I was dating somebody at the time. And I remember after that first day, he would not sit next to me. And I just remember thinking, God's fine. I mean, there's something. I just. I'm just so. Again, I'm so grateful for my parents because they taught me, you can stand alone, it doesn't matter. Like, what's right is right. It doesn't matter. And so, you know, I broke up with them. Of course. I'm like, if you can't sit next to me in class and I don't. If you can't take me at my worst. But yeah, Syracuse University, you can learn so many things. And not to down BYU or any religious institutions, but I do think for me, it would have hindered my learning of the world and of people if I had stayed there.
John Dehlin [02:16:31] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:16:31] You know, and so I'm grateful for Syracuse now. From Syracuse is where I started my internship with the Eagles. Started with the Philadelphia Eagles. No, sorry. Started with the Oakland Raiders. And I was public relations. I went to the Oakland Raiders, interviewed, they hired me, and there were still like, five people that worked for the team that played with my dad.
John Dehlin [02:16:57] I mean, it was this Al Davis, Oakland Raiders.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:16:59] This was Al Davis's Oakland Raiders, and he was still alive. But when I talk about home, Oakland Raiders felt like home. A lot of those guys knew me when I was yay high. A lot of them had had problems, drug issues. But the Raiders always accepted you. It's like, once a Raider, always a Raider. That's what they say. So going there was an amazing experience, especially since the Raiders. Al Davis, Raiders. I can't talk about Mike's, but Al Davis, Raiders just win, baby. He did not care about anything else that you did. Just win. And. And when I was in public relations, it was our job to pretty much get ahead of what the players were doing from Monday to Saturday before the media did. And it was exhausting. And I was like, I don't like this. This is a lot of work. And so I ended up changing from public relations to community relations. And interestingly enough, the Raiders didn't really have a big CR department. It was just one guy. But I started going out with the players into the community. We would do hospitals, things like that. And then I started writing up articles for them. So I put that on the site. So I kind of carved out my own little thing with Oakland Raiders. When that internship was over, I came back home and wanted to go to the Eagles. And that was Coach Reed's.
John Dehlin [02:18:46] Andy Reed, who's now the coach of the Kansas City Chiefs. And he's Mormon.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:18:51] For those of you don't know, he's Mormon. He is Mormon. And so we had that connection. We were in the same stake together. So I'd known Coach Reed before. I wanted to work with the Eagles, but I wanted to come back home and I wanted to try community relations. So I tried out. I mean, I interviewed with them, got accepted, and I was with them for a season and a half, which was amazing. It was amazing and completely different than the Raiders because Coach Reed was the guy that's like, it's all about character. I'm going to bring in players that have great character. Reno Mahe was there when I was there, and we're still really good friends.
John Dehlin [02:19:36] Did you say Ty Detmer was there when you were there?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:19:38] Ty Detmer was there when I was There, I'm trying to think. Chad Lewis was there. I was there at the height of the Eagles. So Donovan McNabb was the quarterback. We had a three headed monster with Brian Westbrook and Karel Buckhalter. It was in Deuce Daily, but it was all about integrity. For Coach Reed, the Raiders were the complete opposite. For Al Davis it was just as long as you went on Sunday, we're a family, do whatever you want to do. And so it was a very different setting, but I was very grateful for both. I have only gotten Starstuck twice in my life and one was when I met Al Davis. I didn't know what to do or say. And he knew my father's stats. He's like, oh, you're Burgess daughter. I wanted him out of universe Miami. He ran the ball, da da da da da da. But the jets picked him up and I mean he was just a mastermind. And the other person was when I was with the Eagles, I met John Madden. I saw him on the field and I went on the field and I told him who my dad was and he's like, oh, Burgess, I know Burgess. And I left the stadium and cried because he was so amazing. And then I went back into work. But what people don't know is my father did not teach me football. I learned football through John Madden. My brother and I used to go to the baseball, the video game, the video game. That's how I learned about flea flickers and all of that. My dad would not talk to me about football. And so it's just really interesting that I was the one that went the football path. And so anyway, yeah, I was with the Eagles and was, I was pretty active because I was home active and physically active. Like I'd go to church, but I wasn't reading the scriptures again. I was always praying. And then when my job was finishing up with the Eagles, I wanted to stay, but it was an internship position and so I tried to create a position. So I did. I got all the stats and figures and I went to Joe Banner and Jeffrey Laurie and said, let's make a position. And the person that was my boss didn't want me to continue. She wanted a guy. That's what she said. And so I was devastated. I prayed, I fasted. I remember feeling so strongly that the Eagles, I'm supposed to be here. I wasn't, I didn't ask, I didn't say thy will be done. That wasn't my personality. I was like, God, let me barter with you. I'll you Know, do this and this. Just give this to me. And I just knew that I was going to stay with the Eagles forever, and none of those prayers were answered. So, yeah, that was a very. It was very difficult because I felt so strongly.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:24] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:23:25] But it didn't happen.
Margi Dehlin [02:23:27] That's right. So is that another touchpoint moment?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:23:30] It was another touch point. It was another touch point moment. But at the time, you're always, especially when you grow up in such a positive, positive affirming household, you're always thinking, everything happens for a reason. So I was thinking, well, maybe the impression I got was to create this position for them. Like, you start to do these mental gymnastics of what was that impression? It must not have been what I thought it was. I actually applied to the Indianapolis Colts, and while I was waiting for the Colts, Continental Airlines opened up and my dad said, have you ever thought about being a flight attendant? And I said, no.
John Dehlin [02:24:18] Like your mom?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:24:19] Like my mom, yeah. I said no. He says, well, Continental is hiring. So I applied just while I was waiting for the Colts to hear back from the Colts. And then it became a competition thing. I didn't want them to cut me because apparently it was really difficult to get through the interviews. So for me, it was, I want to make sure that I keep winning. And so I got through all the interviews, and then I went to flight attendant school, and I wanted to keep winning. And then that became the best seven years of my life, was being a flight attendant. Really threw away the college degree and everything, my NFL dreams, and I became a flight attendant international. And it was amazing. The best. The best. Outside of my children and getting married, it was the best years of my. Of my life.
Margi Dehlin [02:25:16] And that was you basically just being open in the moment to something that presented itself.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:25:22] Absolutely. And it was always this thought of, everything happens for a reason. So let's just see. I mean, I just. I live this life of. I liken it to. When I talk to people. I liken it to the first frozen when Ana is jumping and Elsa is trying to catch up with her, and she's like, ana, slow down. I feel like I'm Ana. And I was just always jumping and God was like, like, wait, Summer, hold on. I. I don't want you to fall. Because I took. I used to take so much on faith, but it wasn't, again, rooted in LDS doctrine. It was faith in myself and that there's a bigger plan, period. And so.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:07] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:26:07] Yeah. I became a flight attendant international. I was not active. My roommate, one of my roommates was her Family was Mormon, from Texas, so we had a lot that we would talk about. But I just remember whenever I had a rough trip or a rough time, I would just drive home because I was based out of Newark. And it'd be two in the morning and I'd walk in the door and it would just be so peaceful. And I remember thinking, I just always want this, feeling this. And I likened it. I mean, I attribute it to the Holy Ghost, the spirit of my family. Just. It was just so peaceful. Even when they were sleeping, I walked in and it was just so nice. So I always said that's what I want when I get older, too. I want to create this. I want to create a temple in my home for my children and my husband. So, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:27:17] But I have to admit, my Mormon brain, I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, wait, not only are you not going to byu, not only did you go to Syracuse, a secular school, but now you're like, hanging out with NFL football players, you know, and in the public, we wouldn't have the best maybe, you know, there's just a perception of the celebrities, party, whatever. And then becoming a flight attendant, traveling the world and you're not active. Like, I'm worried about your soul. My Mormon brain retroactively is terrified for your soul.
Margi Dehlin [02:27:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:27:53] But again, you're not living with this guilt and shame or even like you're a wayward human.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:27:59] No. And my parents never treated you that way. They never treated me that way. They weren't. My sister got married while I was a flight attendant. One of my sisters, there's six of us, and I was never. She got married in the temple. I did not go in. Obviously I wasn't endowed. But they had a full wedding reception after that. Everyone was part of. And I was never meant to feel like, why is your younger sister getting married and you, you know, have a different boyfriend every other month? I was never meant to feel that way. So it's not just myself with the guilt and shame. I think it was also my. My tribe, my community, my sisters. My sister who got married, she never looked at me like, you're the. You're older than me. Why aren't you married? It was just. Everyone has their own paths. Because.
John Dehlin [02:29:01] Because in orthodox Mormonism, especially Utah, Idaho, Arizona, it's like she didn't.
Margi Dehlin [02:29:06] She's.
John Dehlin [02:29:06] She's inactive. Oh, she's. She's not living her covenants. You know, she's. She's not living the word of wisdom or she's the law of chastity. You Know, she's like, let's pray, let's put her name in the temple. We're worried about her. Like. Like she may be committing the sin next to murder. You know what I mean? Like that nuts. But you're not. You escaped all that and you just felt love and support from your Mormon family. That's just. That's not a Mormon story. And it is a Mormon story. It totally is a Mormon story. But in my Mormon brain.
Margi Dehlin [02:29:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:29:40] It's like you were freaking Mormon.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:29:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:29:41] But you were, you know, because your parents were doing it. Right. Honestly, in terms of like, what you would think Christ or God would want, which is like, live your best life,
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:29:52] you know, And I feel like you can correct me. I feel as though you have said that your father was a Jesus Mormon.
John Dehlin [02:30:02] Is it Jesus Mormon? I caught my dad with cigarettes in his pocket at one point or like alcohol in the garage and my parents got divorced and he's like, oh, the temple. I never really liked it. The temple's kind of weird and I wish it were in the Book of Mormon. I'm more of New Temple Testament guy. Like, that's how my dad was. But for me, the conditioning got really wired in. So even though my dad was loving and my mom was loving, the church's conditioning was always in my brain and still is.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:30:36] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:30:37] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:30:37] And I think that again is the. I call it a bubble within a bubble. Cause growing up lds, you're in a bubble. But my mother made a bigger bubble around that so that I just wasn't. It wasn't penetrated. But I do believe my parents were Jesus Mormons, not Joseph Smith. Mormons, we believe that he's a prophet, but we focus more on Christ's teachings. And maybe that's because they're converts and we had more non member friends. So it's. How do we. What's the common thread? You know, you can't talk about Joseph Smith to people who don't know who he is. So there was always this let's find the commonality with people. And so, yeah, it's a different Mormon story because I was living my life and I had a mother and a father who allowed me to live my
John Dehlin [02:31:44] life kind of shame free and guilt free. In your twenties?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:31:48] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:31:48] What the.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:31:49] Yeah, I'm telling you. I mean, I didn't, I didn't realize what shame and guilt was in that context because it just didn't make sense to me. Again, it's all about. I said my sister got married in the temple and I was still dating. It Was all about. Everyone has their own path. And within religion, it was the same. Everyone has their own path, but as long as you're connecting, you know, with a higher power, that's. We are happy for you because you're a better person. So my dad, I mean, when he became lds, he didn't look back. He was full throttle. He never drank again. He never. I mean, he was. You would think he grew up lds, given what he did. But we also knew we need to do family home evening. My dad can't do it on Mondays. We do it Sunday nights. You know, there was always this. What's the. What is the spirit of the law? Not the letter. What is the spirit?
John Dehlin [02:33:01] Yeah, that's beautiful.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:33:02] You know, like, okay, what is family home evening supposed to really be about? About? It's not about Monday. What are we supposed to do? So that's how my family always. I mean, we. To this day, to this day, my mom, because of my flight attendant schedule, we would have Thanksgiving on Friday or Saturday because it's like, if you can't be here, let's do. We'll move Thanksgiving, we'll move Christmas. We still do that to this day. If somebody can't be there, oh, we'll just do Thanksgiving this day. So it's not the letter, it's the spirit. What is Thanksgiving? What is Christmas? It's about family. It's about getting together. And if we can't be together this day, then we'll move the day. I'm just so. I keep saying it, but I was so fortunate to have that. Let's be a little bit more nuanced and dig deeper into why we're doing this. And once we figure out the why, let's see how that can fit into our lives.
Margi Dehlin [02:34:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:34:09] Like, I just wonder, like, for all the changes many of us have wanted to see in the church, like, how could we get Mormon parents to just parent their children? Like, your parents parented you, in other words, not the Mormon Church. Trying to tell your parents as converts how to parent. How about your convert parents teaching Mormons how to parent so that, like. And it's probably be good for the church. It'd be good for the kids, It'd be good for the parents. It'd be good for families. Like, I think we should have a movement of just how to help Mormon parents be just unconditionally loving and accepting and affirming of their kids without guilt and shame. Like, I want to meet your freaking parents.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:34:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:34:47] And shake their hands for how they. How they Mormoned you guys.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:34:52] You know, that's why I love, I loved what I heard.
John Dehlin [02:34:55] Lindsay. Lindsay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:34:57] More than one way to Mormon. But unfortunately, I don't think the church would be the church if they had parents like my parents.
John Dehlin [02:35:09] If the church produced parents like your parents, the church wouldn't have people paying 10% of their income for life and serving two year missions and going to BYU and marrying the temple.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:19] And it's kind of like what would the church be without control?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:35:25] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:35:26] And yeah, I mean, I mean it feels pretty rooted.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:35:32] It's just, it's sad. But I have come to realize that if my parents, if more LDS parents were like my parents, there wouldn't be as much control. Right?
Margi Dehlin [02:35:53] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:35:54] There's six of us and out of six of us, three of us got married in the temple. That is not a percentage the church would accept,
Margi Dehlin [02:36:05] though. Ironically, it's here.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:36:07] Ironically it's here.
John Dehlin [02:36:08] It sounds like your parents don't care.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:36:09] Yeah, I mean ironically it's here. But, but my parents were like, it's your path, it's your path. My brother comes back home with another tattoo. He's not covering it up. I don't know, it's just such a different way to just look at people and say, well that's just not your journey and it's fine. So yeah, unfortunately I don't see them putting institute classes of being more open minded and telling people that this church is not the one and true church.
Margi Dehlin [02:36:50] That's right. But we can still witness and love and feel grateful for so many aspects of your growing up.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:37:01] Absolutely. And just hope that, that I can instill that in my children. So it's a cycle that continues.
Margi Dehlin [02:37:09] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:37:10] You know, so yeah.
Meeting a Partner and Temple Marriage
John Dehlin [02:37:13] Okay. So flight attendant for seven years. That takes you into what age about
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:37:21] I was, I continued through when I got married, so I actually stopped at 31.
John Dehlin [02:37:29] Okay, so let's maybe, let's get to how you meet your eternal companions.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:37:34] Okay. So it's such an interesting story. So I'm not active, but I am so positive again, it's all about being open to opportunities. So when I was a flight attendant, I was reserved because I was very junior. Which means we can request for a schedule, days off, but we don't know where we're going. So it might say the 14th to the 15th, I'm on call and then I have to sit and wait for scheduling to call. So we don't know where you're gonna go when you become more senior. Those dates will say London, Heathrow, so you'll know where you're going. That's a line. That's what they call a line. So I was reserved, extremely junior, but I would always just say, I'm just blessed to be getting on this plane and going to another country. So I don't care where I go. And because I had that mentality, I went to amazing places. I was in Beijing, China, during the Olympics. I was able to go to India, and so I was able to go to these places and explore different cultures, but I wasn't active. I. I was called to do a domestic flight, which is within the country. And domestic flight attendants don't like international. They like the flight attendants. We like each other. But domestic flight attendants don't like to fly international and vice versa. Domestic is very hard for me because you're doing, you're going up and down, up and down in one day. Whereas with international you are forced to have a 24 hour break. So I would fly to Ireland and I had to do 24 hours. Whereas domestic, you can do six legs in one day.
Margi Dehlin [02:39:29] So more humane, it sounds like, when you're international.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:39:33] But one of my roommates was domestic and loved it. He loved domestic. So I was called scheduling called me for a domestic flight and I'm like, oh, my gosh. So I get on the flight and funny enough, my father had bought me a CTR ring years before and I still wore it. So I'm not active, not going to church, but I'm wearing the CTR ring always. I just always had it on. So I get on the plane and this guy comes from the back, another flight attendant. He comes bouncing forward and he goes, hi, I'm Jesse, I'm from Hawaii. What's your name? And so I tell him my name and he sees my CTR ring and he's like, are you Mormon? My family's Mormon. We become instant best friends, me and Jesse, and we still are. And we were not active at the time, neither one of us, but we traveled together, we would talk about the church, all of that stuff. And one day, I want to say, maybe seven months later, he says to me, I want to go on a mission. And he was like 21, so, you know, it would be later. And I said, awesome, you know, I support you. And that's when I started thinking, you know what? I think I'm going to start becoming active again in the church. So Jesse started going to his ward in Jersey. I went to his ward with him and he spoke to the bishop and I said, you know, I'M gonna talk to the bishop, and I'm just gonna. You know, I'm gonna start clean, too. We're both gonna start over. And I had. I'll have to back up a little bit for this story, but. But when I was with the Eagles, I became friends with one of the players. A few of the players I was friends with, but this one person went to a different team, and he came back into town to play the Eagles. And my girlfriend and I got a hotel downtown, and we hung out with him because the team came in the night before, and we were in the same hotel. So my girlfriend says, I'm gonna go see this other guy. And I said, okay, great. I'm gonna take a shower. So I go in the shower, and while I was gone, my girlfriend gave my friend the key to our room.
John Dehlin [02:42:17] Trigger, trigger, warning.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:42:19] Trigger, warning.
John Dehlin [02:42:20] We're about to talk about assault.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:42:21] Yes. So I. I was in the shower. I came out, and he's in the bedroom. He's in the room. And thankfully, I'd had my clothes in there, so I changed. I had clothes on, but I came out. I'm like, what are you doing here? And he's like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm just. Whatever. He'd been drinking, and he tried to assault me. Thankfully, I. I go into fight or flight mode. I tend to fight, so I need him very hard. And he got off. But that experience, you know, he got off. He left. It was very traumatizing, but I had kind of kept it in. I told I had a boyfriend at the time. I told him. I remember going home the next day and my mom asking me if I was okay. She could tell something was wrong. I told my mother shortly after, but I waited a while because I didn't want her to find him, to go look for him. So I remember waiting to tell my mom. But anyway, I didn't really talk much about it, but when I went to meet this bishop, I was listing everything I'd done, and I told him this happened. Thankfully, I fought the guy off. So nothing happened. But he did try. And the bishop said that I would have to go through disciplinary counsel.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:04] Hmm.
John Dehlin [02:44:05] For assault.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:06] Really?
John Dehlin [02:44:07] On me for being a victim of an assault.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:44:10] Now I'm Again, I don't know if the word is naive, but I'm very, very naive to church doctrine. You have to remember, like, we're very nuanced. And so I didn't even know what disciplinary council was when he said it. I thought it was just, okay, I'll talk to the stake President. I mean, I just didn't know what he was saying, but I'm like, okay, whatever I need to do. And he goes, yeah, because, you know, there's the fact that, you know, you were in that situation. We need to just make sure. So I ended up saying, okay, we can do that. I got very busy with flying, so I never went back. Another friend of mine who was inactive that I flew with, he said, some. You've got to try out this ward that's close, close to us. So I went to another Jersey ward, and they were so diverse. I mean, this was like the heart of Newark. So it was a completely different feel. They were a branch because they didn't have that many. And so I talked to that bishop, and I said, I'm trying to just start over. I want to. And I said, I talked to this bishop. I want to let you know. And he said, I have to do disciplinary council. And he looked at me and said, I don't know why he would tell you that you have been through enough. You are forgiven. Like the Lord. You are. You don't have to go through a repentance process. And I just started bawling because I didn't realize up until that point that there was a part of me that was blaming myself. Right.
John Dehlin [02:46:00] Like, the idea of being forgiven for being a victim of an assault.
Margi Dehlin [02:46:06] Yeah, not great either.
John Dehlin [02:46:08] I mean, that's the whole thing, but still.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:46:10] Yeah, not great. But he was so shocked that, like, I would have had to. And I think he was talking about, like, me drinking. You know, he's like, you're everything you've done. He's like, you've been through enough.
Margi Dehlin [02:46:25] Oh, got it.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:46:26] So he was kind of saying, I don't even know why you would have had to go through this, but don't put yourself through this anymore. You're forgiven. Like, you know, you've been through enough. Like, you don't have to not take the sacrament. You don't have to. So I just didn't realize that part of me had blamed myself for what happened. Like, why were we in the same hotel? Why did I let my friend have a key? Things that shouldn't. Had nothing to do with me, I was putting on myself.
Margi Dehlin [02:46:59] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:46:59] Which is some aspect of control for survivors of assault. They want to think, what could I have done? Right.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:06] That's right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:47:09] So that. But then I realized the first bishop had reaffirmed that it was my fault somewhat by saying, we need to take this a step further. He was reaffirming what I was Already playing in my head was my fault. So when I was crying, I think it was just that release of, no, I was a victim, and that was not my fault. And that has nothing to do with me. So that bishop was amazing and that ward branch was amazing. They were very, very Newark. But it reminded me of home, because, come as you are, there was no, we're going to pretend that we're this way. So anyway, I start my path there. Jesse goes back home to Hawaii. He gets called to serve a mission. And so I still have the letters, but I'm writing back and forth to him. And I'm saying, you know, I'm on this path too. And I decided to get my endowments taken out. I didn't even know what it was. I just wanted to show Heavenly Father that I was serious. Like, I just remember saying, I want to make a covenant to Heavenly Father that I am serious and willing to do what he wants me to do to be a better person. And so I talked to the bishop, said, I want to take out my endowments. He had me take a class with this elder senior missionaries, the two senior missionaries in our thing, and the senior missionary, the husband says to me, I don't think you should get your endowments taken out. You're not going on a mission and you're not getting married, so I don't think you should take your endowments out. I had no idea what he was talking about, because we don't talk about that.
Temple Endowments and Early Married Life
John Dehlin [02:49:30] Do you want to explain to our Never Mormons what is actually going on there in that conversation?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:49:35] So to Never Mormons, I am asking to go make these sacred covenants in the temple. But generally when you're a female, you do it only when you're going on a mission or when you are getting married, because there's a more special part when your husband or husband to be is part of the ceremony for you, the covenant ceremony. So what he was trying to tell me was, you're a single woman, so do not do this because you're not going on a mission and you want to save that for your husband.
John Dehlin [02:50:16] There's more, though. There's more, though, because you probably know this, but. But you know how you were, like, let off the hook for whatever sins you may have committed when you were not active. Once you've gone to the temple, taking out your endowments and you have sex outside of marriage, you can be you. Especially back then, you would have been excommunicated. And they're basically saying that person might have been saying, you May mess up again, or you may mess up, you may have sex, which means you'd be excommunicated if you had taken your endowments out. So, like, just in case you have sex, we better not have you go through the temple.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:50:57] So I think.
John Dehlin [02:51:00] I think premarital sex, I should say yes.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:51:02] But I think that's being very charitable because I truly think he was saying, you want to wait for your husband. Because he was that type. I mean, and he was so sweet. But he was the same one that said when he was growing up, they weren't allowed to do anything on the Sabbath day. And he went sledding with his family and broke his arm. And his father said, you're the reason why the ER doctors have to go to work today.
Margi Dehlin [02:51:29] Oh. Oh, wow.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:51:31] So he was of that old school mindset. I can feel that, why would a woman get her endowments taken out unless she's going on a mission or getting married? But I just wasn't understanding it. I just. I said, okay, you know, I don't know why he would say that. At the same time, When I started becoming active, because I was a junior flight attendant, I worked weekends a lot, so I would leave Saturdays and come back be another country by Sunday. So I started scheduling my trips so that I could land in another country and go to church in another country. Like, I was serious. I was like, I just want to just be the best me I can be. So I went to the Britannia ward in London, all singles awards. Went to one in Bristol, England. Went to Oslo. I went to an institute class in Oslo, Norway. So I was just setting it up. So whenever I was turning around, I was back in the folds in a way. This Sunday, I was on call to go to China, and I just didn't want to sit at home. So I said, let me try the New York singles ward in Manhattan. And my husband had just moved into that ward. He was a resident, ER resident, and he had been to a different ward. And he just moved to that ward. And he was off that Sunday. So he met me in gospel. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. For singles word, I think it's gospel doctrine. But he was there and I was so impressed because he kept talking to me while the teacher was talking. And then the teacher asked him a question, and I'm like, pulling out my scriptures. And he, like, knew it right off the bat. And I was like, wow, that's amazing. Like you knew that answer. So we met then. So I was Already on my path. My husband had never dated a non member. He's from Utah, went to school in Arizona and then went is in New York. He'd never dated a member, a non member. I'd never dated a member, right. So I remember meeting him, talking to him, and he had said on a phone call, he said, I was walking back today, it was Sunday, and this guy asked if he could take my picture for modeling. He would give me money. And I said no, because it's the Sabbath. And I in my head said, this isn't going to work because you're a little bit too orthodox for me if you can't take a picture on the Sabbath. So we were friends, but we didn't go back out for a whole year. Towards the end of that year was when I was speaking to the senior mission couple and they had made that comment. And I remember talking to my husband and saying, I'm looking to make higher covenants. But this guy said that I shouldn't.
John Dehlin [02:54:54] You need a man.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:54:55] I need a man. And my husband was so mad, but he couldn't tell me why. No one could tell me why, but he was so mad. He was like, this is your decision. He shouldn't be saying that to you. And then I remember going to Switzerland and landing and this long. He sent me this long email saying, whatever you decide to do, I respect your decision. But just know that that is something that you can do as a woman whenever you are ready. And I just felt so good. Like that made me feel so good. I ended up not taking out my endowments. But because of that conversation, my husband and I started talking again. And then, yeah, rest is history. He got a job in Utah and I'm in New York. And he's like, hey, you know, I'm moving in two weeks. And I said, okay, I'll come visit you. And I was dating someone in Hawaii at the time too. And so I went to Hawaii, I had my date, and then flew from there to Salt Lake.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:06] Get you go.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:56:07] I'm telling you, I.
John Dehlin [02:56:09] Metropolitan, Cosmopolitan.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:56:12] I mean, I was. I was on like Match uk. It was just fun. It was just like, I can see
Margi Dehlin [02:56:18] that the world is wide.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:56:19] Yes. And it was just. It's just a plane ride away. Everything's just a plane ride away. And my mom would always tell me, as long as you're honest with the person about the expectations, as long as they know that they're not gonna do this, that you're not gonna do that. And this is what it is. Dating is fine. So I always kept that in mind. I'm like, as long as you know what it is, then we're fine. And I dated a lot. It was a lot of fun. And so anyway, went up to Utah and we were on this date. And then I ended up extending it a little longer to hang out with him longer. And then before I left, he said, listen, I don't believe in long distance dating. And we'd only been dating for about a month and a half at this point. He says, I don't believe in long distance dating, so if you want to continue dating, you're gonna have to move out here. And I said, well, if you want me to move out here, then we have to be exclusive. And he goes, okay. And I start freaking out because I just left a date in Hawaii. So, like, this was not where I was going with this, but he said, I'll pay for an apartment for you and take care of your cell if you move out here. And so I prayed about it. I was not getting an answer. And I end up talking to my dad. And he said, some just remember, the Lord gives you just enough, and then he asks you to take the next step in faith. So it came full circle to what he was told. And so, yeah, that was it. I felt like that was an answer. And then I saw. I went to the Stake Conference center and I was walking around, I saw the picture of Lehi on the boat where Sariah is, like, looking at him. And Nephi's got all these muscles and they're. I think it's journeying to the promised land, I think is what it's called. And Sariah was looking at Lehi and Lehi was looking out. And I. I went and told my husband, I told him, I said, I didn't get an answer, but you have an answer that I should be here. And I saw this picture, and I feel as though I'm going to have faith. I'm going to look to you that, you know what, we're doing such a Mormon thing, I didn't even know it. And he said, summer, you don't even know. But there are covenants that are made in the temple that align with that. And so I moved.
John Dehlin [02:59:23] Meaning women, men covenant with God. Women covenant to hearken to their husbands who covenant with God. And you were basically saying that, reenacting that in real life, in the flesh.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:59:36] I mean, hello. When.
John Dehlin [02:59:38] As a Cosmopolitan globetrotting.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:59:41] Yeah, like, what the heck.
John Dehlin [02:59:43] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:59:43] But really, for me, that was the structure of my family too. Growing up, my father was the head of the household.
Margi Dehlin [02:59:54] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:59:54] But my mother taught me she was submissive. But it was. She kind of taught me, like, a different definition of submission. So I never thought that word was a bad word because she would. She would. You know, my dad worked, and he did his thing for the family, but she was the one that was, you know, that we went to with different things, and she would travel by herself, and no one would say anything to her at church. So she had this matriarchy part of her that was so strong, and she edified my dad. So it was just very interesting because it's what I think most people would recognize in an LDS household. But my mother wasn't meek, so it was this. My dad respected her strength, and my mom edified my father in his strength. So if my mom said, I have a really bad feeling about this, my dad would respect that. It wasn't, I've got the priesthood and you don't. So we were just kind of taught. It was just different. So when I'm saying that to my husband, you know, I'm gonna look to you. I wasn't thinking the way the temple says it. I was just. Just, you know, thinking, you know, you got the answer this time. Maybe I'll get it next time. I don't know.
John Dehlin [03:01:27] Yeah, neat.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:01:29] So that was it.
Moving to Utah and Life as a Mormon Wife and Mother
John Dehlin [03:01:30] So what year was this that you moved to Utah?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:01:33] This was 2010.
John Dehlin [03:01:35] Oh, okay. So 14 years ago.
Margi Dehlin [03:01:38] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:01:38] So we started dating again in June of 2010. I moved to Utah. August of 2010. He. He flew back to Jersey, and we drove back out, and we were married by December.
John Dehlin [03:01:53] Okay, now that's a Mormon story.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:01:55] Very, very.
John Dehlin [03:01:56] All of a sudden, you got on the Mormon train.
Margi Dehlin [03:01:58] I was gonna say, that's very recognizable. All of that.
John Dehlin [03:02:01] Took you 10 extra years when you got on the Mormon train.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:02:03] I'm telling you, it was so crazy, because even the guy I dated before my husband, he was not a member. He was Catholic. We dated for two and a half years and. And never did. I think, okay, where's my ring? And why are we not. It was just. We're dating. I don't know. It was just. It was so crazy. I had my roommates. He lived at his house. And, you know, so when I met my husband, he proposed. I moved in August, he proposed in October, and then we were looking to get married the following spring. And he said, I want to start the new year off as husband and wife. So we got married in December, and I had a lot of my flight attendant friends came out. My uncle Blair was there just I had a lot of people from my side come out for it because they are not members. We had a full on ring ceremony. So the bishop of our singles ward did. Oh, sorry, it was family word cause we had started going to family word together. But he did our ring ceremony and it was a full on. We had dinner, I walked down the aisle. It was a full on ceremony. So my friends and family that were non members didn't feel any different. And like I said about Thanksgiving and my mom would move Thanksgiving, that's kind of how we looked at weddings was we'll create our own so that people feel included. So we never felt like it was an exclusion.
John Dehlin [03:03:50] And that's something that in the Mormon corridor is discouraged.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:03:55] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:03:55] A ring ceremony, we were all taught it denigrates the prime temple covenant. So ring ceremonies were discouraged but it sounds like they made an exception for you.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:04:07] Well, I don't know. I don't think number one, I know my husband didn't know that. I never even knew that until later after getting married was that it was discouraged because I came from the east coast and on the east coast there's so many non members that they may not have a ring ceremony but they'll have a bigger reception than just we got married and stand up and we're gonna shake hands. There was always something more. And so I was very astonished to hear that. But there's a lot of things in Utah that are orthodox that I never knew.
Margi Dehlin [03:04:49] It's true.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:04:51] I never knew.
Margi Dehlin [03:04:52] And I coming from back east as well and having family from back east, we had a ring ceremony as well.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:05:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And John, did you know that it was looked down upon before?
John Dehlin [03:05:06] Yeah, but I was Margi's mom planned the wedding so I just did whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah, I was fine with it. I was embarrassed that, you know, for those who've never been Mormon, like a Mormon temple wedding, only active faithful Mormons that are paying 10% of their income to the church and obeying the church's rules get to attend the wedding. So if you're a, a parent or a grandparent or a sibling or aunt or uncle and you're not an active tithe paying faithful Mormon. Endowed, endowed. You're excluded. Like I didn't get to go to my own siblings weddings because I was too young. So like so many people get excluded from a traditional Mormon temple wedding.
Margi Dehlin [03:05:50] That's so true. And in our case, none of my siblings would have been able to go. None of my parents siblings would have Been able to go or like.
John Dehlin [03:06:00] Yeah, yeah. And so that's, you know, that's kind of the way it is under the covenant, especially living, you know, around these parts.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:06:08] Yeah. And that's the thing is I would not have gotten married without a ring ceremony. So I'm really grateful that my husband wasn't so orthodox. I mean, he already took away my temple. I told him I want to get married in Lahaina at the Laie Temple. And he agreed to that when we got engaged and we ended up at Bountiful.
John Dehlin [03:06:37] So that's not quite Hawaii.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:06:39] Not quite the same beautiful temple though. But he. So I think, you know, the ring ceremony would have been a trade off too. Latier is a little different than Bountiful in the winter.
John Dehlin [03:06:52] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:06:53] So. Okay.
John Dehlin [03:06:54] I have a question that's a little delicate. I'm thinking about Natasha Helfer. Her, you know, like she told her Mormon story was really powerful. She talked about in a very vulnerable way how she had, you know, had a boyfriend in high school that she loved. It's her partner now, Joe, but non Mormon. And they actually had sex in high school. But then she repented, went to byu. Whatever happened, she gets married to this quote, nice Mormon boy. But once it's discovered by this nice Mormon boy that Natasha had done normal, healthy developmental things outside of a Mormon context before her marriage, it was a problem for their marriage and it, it was a multi year problem. So like there is this. So. So not to make any assumptions about. Honestly, your life prior to getting married was, you know, given the fact that you were 10 years not active as an adult, living a beautiful life.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:08:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:08:02] Was that ever even a thing with your. Is there anything that you would want to talk about with your husband in terms of reconciling that and. And Mormon purity standards? Right.
Margi Dehlin [03:08:14] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:08:14] And that's what's so interesting is that I was again, I didn't know orthodox Mormonism. I didn't know it. I knew it from a few people in our ward, but my mother would always be like, they're not from here. So I thought that they were anomalies. I did not think that that was purity culture or anything like that. We did have the chewed gum discussion in young women, but that if you
John Dehlin [03:08:46] have sex before marriage, you're like a piece of chew gum that no one would want.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:08:50] But it never affected me. I was never, it never sunk into me that sex is next to murder. Premarital sex is next to murder. Never. So it was when I met my husband, I was very much like this was my life. This is what I've done. I wasn't ashamed at all. And he was fine.
John Dehlin [03:09:24] It sounds like to his credit, he didn't see you as, quote, damaged goods, which I know is horrendous and offensive, but that's how some Mormon men would view. Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [03:09:34] Did you say he was. He was raised in Utah?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:09:37] Yes. Yes. He served a mission in the Bible belt.
Margi Dehlin [03:09:41] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:09:43] But outside of that, Utah was. His parents were inactive. They did divorce when he was young. So he said he grew up kind of hating Mormonism and then woke up one day, his friends were either going to jail or whatever, and he said he just decided one day to go on a mission.
John Dehlin [03:10:06] Okay, so he didn't have sort of the orthodox primary, middle school and high school kind of experience either.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:10:13] No, he didn't. But he turned. He turns out to be more orthodox than myself now. Now. And even during the marriage.
John Dehlin [03:10:22] Yes. Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:10:23] And I think. And I grew up in the church.
Margi Dehlin [03:10:25] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:10:26] But I believe that's because of the culture. So even though he wasn't in church, he still heard, he still knew the culture of what was what and what was wrong and what was right. And his parents both served missions and his mother did genealogy all the way back. So he's pioneer heritage. But for whatever reason, they were inactive when he was growing up. And then he just. He said he read the Book of Mormon for the first time in the mtc. I mean, that's how out of it he was. But then once he got it, that was it. So even though I grew up in the church, I absolutely always had more of a nuanced, again, spirit of the law versus letter of the law than he did. Honestly, the way I've always seen it is when my husband tells me my great, great, great, whatever, gave this his last dime to Joseph Smith to build the temple. That's how I see these stories where it's like this pass down of there's this miracle and this happened. And it's so ingratiated in your ancestry and in your DNA that whether or not I don't believe it now as an adult, but it was such a big part of my upbringing. I feel like it's the same hearing pioneer stories, like it's kind of the same thing. Where did it happen? Did you know? Did you cross the river? And you know, it's. But it's so ingratiated in your pioneer story that that's what's told.
Margi Dehlin [03:12:13] And it is honestly power of narrative. Right. It's power of using narrative to directly affect Behavior of a group, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:12:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just know when it comes to like the law of chastity is a huge one. But what I realized when I was dating my husband was I had not dated members because when you date someone who is non member, there are so many bad things that you can be doing. So when you have a coffee or a drink in the world, they're not looking at you like you're this horrible person.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:09] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:13:10] Whereas within the Mormonism bubble, it's like everyone is, everyone is practicing the law of chastity, everyone's practicing the word of wisdom. So it's like you're looking for any little thing.
John Dehlin [03:13:24] At least you think they are. At least it appears to me.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:13:26] Well, you think, right, right. But it's.
Margi Dehlin [03:13:28] But there is a surveillance aspect or like a policing aspect of behavior.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:13:34] It's like, okay, if we're all doing these big things, and that's why I was putting a lot of chastity up there, if we're all doing these big things, then let's start nitpicking the little things. But in the real world, in the bigger picture, those little things, me having a glass of wine, my ex boyfriend is like, she's not a drunkard. Right. He's like, she's a great girl. Yeah, look how amazing she is. And I'm looked at whatever over here. So I realized it was a lot to do. Not with shame and guilt in myself, but judgment.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:07] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:14:08] I knew that other people have their own standards and I did not want to be in a culture of being judged. And so, yeah, that was something I realized after dating my husband. He was very open minded, but moving to Utah was like, wait a minute, this is a different place than New York.
Margi Dehlin [03:14:32] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:14:34] I can imagine what's happening here. You know, I joke that, you know, when I got here, everyone was so nice and they said, you know, have a good day. And I'm like, don't tell me what to do because I'm so used to the New York. But no, it was, it was different. Very different.
John Dehlin [03:14:58] So I'm realizing Now we're about 3 hours and 22 minutes in. Like, we'll probably have to do this in two parts. But what I want to do to kind of close out this part is maybe just take us semi, briefly, just up to the point where you started having questions or doubts. Okay, so you were. How many years were you married? Temple married in the church before you started having like doubts that were like starting to bother you. How many years was that?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:15:30] I could Tell you exactly. So we got married 2010. 2018. Okay, 2018.
John Dehlin [03:15:40] So you did eight. Eight years. So you went from this cosmopolitan, inactive woman, we'll say Jack Mormon woman, to like temple married. And you had four kids in what, how many years?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:15:55] Three kids.
John Dehlin [03:15:56] Three kids in how many years?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:15:59] In four years? Five years. 2012 was my first. Then 2015 and then 2016.
John Dehlin [03:16:07] So four years you moved to Utah, marrying the temple, have three kids within five or six. Six years living in Utah?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:16:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:16:16] Like, was that a major culture shock? Was it fun? Was it interesting? Take us up. Take us up through what all that was like for you. Just jumping on the Mormon train and going hard and up to the point, like right before you start doubting and questioning.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:16:32] So I. It was very difficult, but because I was still a flight attendant and I was still based out of the New York area, I could. I still had that connection. So I realized, I want to say a year and a half in our marriage, that if I was going to be fully committed to Utah, I could not have this life raft of a job because I literally just was here. But I'm like, I'm going to go to New York and fly out to Rome, you know, So I let that go. And that's when I became more ingratiated in Utah culture. My family, all of my siblings and my parents would come to visit often, and then they stayed. So I want to say that if they had not stayed, it would have been a completely different story for me. Family is just so important, and if it wasn't for my own tribe, it would have been hard. I do remember after having my daughter in 2012, we went to New York City in 2013. And I remember walking down the street with Chris, my husband, and feeling. So just no one was looking at us. I don't even know how to put that feeling. No one was looking at us. People were minding their business. They were walking New York City, and I was not being looked at.
Margi Dehlin [03:18:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:18:14] Are you saying that in Utah you're an interracial couple and so interracial?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:18:18] Not even. I mean, me, by myself, I had a three year old within the first four months of me moving here. Say, mommy, there's a Lamanite. And that's not even right.
John Dehlin [03:18:29] Like a kid says, a Mormon kid in Utah says to you, mommy, there's a Lamanite. Because in the Book of Mormon, Lamanites have darker skin.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:18:39] Right?
John Dehlin [03:18:40] So even though you're not Native American,
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:18:42] like, what's happening right now?
John Dehlin [03:18:44] Because that kid's never seen A dark person before. Right, right. So they're all Lamanites.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:18:51] They're all Lamanites. But. But you can eliminate. You get eliminate. But that's the thing is I had been in this culture so much that I hadn't even recognized how much of a spectacle I was. This is 2010. So, you know, I'm walking around, I'm not seeing anyone. That's my complexion. But I'm fine. I fly to New York, I fly to Trinidad. I'm fine. But it wasn't till I went to New York City, people are walking by you doing their own thing. People are talking to themselves. No one is looking at me. I was invisible. And it felt amazing. I don't even know how to explain that because was nice to just not be looked at.
Margi Dehlin [03:19:48] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:19:49] So that's when I realized that the culture was so embedded that I didn't even realize it until I was out of it for a second. But in 2018, we were in Herriman, so there was little things here and there that was said.
John Dehlin [03:20:06] Was it hard to be a stay at home mom after you'd had a 10 year career or 10 plus year career? Was it hard to be a stay at home mom with littles and to be that Mormon housewife? Kind of. I know you worked some, so.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:20:19] Yeah, that's a great question. I never was like a hashtag tradwife, I think.
John Dehlin [03:20:28] Hashtag what?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:20:30] Tradwife. That's like the name traditional wife. Traditional wife. You guys haven't seen that? It's like a new passion. Hashtag tradwife.
John Dehlin [03:20:38] Okay, good.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:20:40] And they like wear full makeup, full clothes, and they're cooking things from scratch. And so I was never, I never was that wife. I continued to travel. I remember in 2014. No, no, it's 2015. Because I already had my son. My best friend Joey back in Pennsylvania was getting married to his partner. And I remember talking to my husband about it and saying, I'm going. But figuring out like, do we all go? Do you stay with the kids? And I go and I went by myself. But that was my mom too. She would go to Trinidad and play carnival. And so it wasn't odd for me. I was a mom. I love being a mom. Cause I'm also the eldest of six. So it's kind of like in my makeup to be caretake. But I still had an identity. Yes. And when I started losing that identity a bit was when I was like, I need to start getting back into things. Because my mother was able to keep an identity, but be an Amazing mom. Stay at home, Mom. So it wasn't very difficult because, again, I'm an extrovert introvert. So I like being home. I'm a homebody, so not flying all over the world was. It was like, that's a great chapter. But I was ready to be home. But I again remember having that conversation with my husband about going to this wedding. And there was no doubt in my mind, I don't care if it's a gay wedding. I'm going. It's my best friend and my husband being very supportive of that. But us having a conversation about where does the church stand? He was asking me, should I ask the bishop? Should I talk to the bishop about it? And I said, I don't see why I would. Why would I talk to the bishop about my friend Joey? He doesn't know him. I was really confused. I understood, but I also was confused because I was like, I love him, my best friend, so why does it matter? So anyway, I went. And it's just really interesting because now with all the. All the gay marriage and all of that, now the church's stance has kind of softened a bit. But as of up to 2015, it was something that we at least had to discuss.
Margi Dehlin [03:23:36] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:23:37] So anyway, so there are little things like that. The biggest when everything started kind of coming down was in 2018 when I saw the essays for the first time. I'd never seen or heard about them.
Gospel Topics Essays and First Cracks in Faith
John Dehlin [03:23:54] The gospel topics essays.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:23:55] The gospel topics essays.
John Dehlin [03:23:56] But until then, you were loving your Utah Mormon life.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:24:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:24:02] And grateful for your Mormon upbringing.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:24:05] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm like, this is what I'm going to, like, I'm gonna instill in my kids. There were little things. Like, I remember somebody telling me at church that if you and your husband get into an argument and there's still bad feelings, you can't take the sacrament. Have you ever heard that?
John Dehlin [03:24:26] That's probably pretty extreme.
Margi Dehlin [03:24:28] I have not heard that.
John Dehlin [03:24:29] I can envision it. It's within my world of possibility. I mean, because in the temple, there's the whole. For all you've seen in the prayer circle in the temple, it's like, no one should join the prayer circle unless they're the best of feelings. So I could see people applying that to the sacrament.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:24:46] So that's what I was. I remember being told that here in Utah that not really just an argument, but if you're still angry that you can't take the sacrament. And I'm like, I saw my mom really yell at my dad right before church. And she still took sacraments. I don't know what you're talking about then. So there are things like that again. My father was Baptist, so when I prayed all my life, I would say you so, dear Heavenly Father, thank you for this day. Somebody brought up to me that it should be they, thou. But the way they did it was very passive aggressive. They're like, are you a convert? And I said, no, I grew up my whole life. They said, oh, are your parents? Yeah, my dad was a Baptist. Oh, that's why you pray that way, because, you know, we say so. I became very self conscious with my prayers, which is so weird. It was just weird. So now when I say prayers, it's they and thou and all of that. But it wasn't until the gospel topics essays, and it wasn't even all of them, I saw the priesthood ban one, and that's when everything wouldn't say everything. That's when my shelf started wobbling a bit.
John Dehlin [03:26:13] So we'll have that be the teaser for the next episode. Is that okay?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:26:16] That's fine.
John Dehlin [03:26:17] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:17] The shelf is wobbling.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:26:19] The shelf is wobbling currently in the story.
John Dehlin [03:26:22] So that's, you know, this has been summer. You know, Summer Rain Barrett's Mormon story up until the point where cracks started developing and things started getting dicey. Difficulty, difficult, complicated. Dicey, yeah. So this has been great. I mean, I love it that we got your story because there are just so many types of stories we don't cover. And this is a really very, very valuable contribution to our library.
Margi Dehlin [03:26:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:26:55] Thank you. And it gets better. Like, you ain't seen nothing yet. So if you enjoyed or even if you didn't enjoyed this past three and a half hours, come right back for part two because we're gonna talk about what happens to Summer as she starts to learn things about the church she didn't know. And it involves a faith journey, faith crisis, mixed faith marriage, trying to decide what to do with your membership or with your relationship with the church while you've got kids living in Utah with a believing husband, with a dad who happens to be an ex NFL football player and one of the four congressmen representing Utah. And what that's like. So, so much. Cool. More stuff to come. Summer, this has been great. Thank you.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:27:48] Thank you.
John Dehlin [03:27:49] Yeah. How does it feel to have this part down?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [03:27:51] Feels great. Feels great.
John Dehlin [03:27:54] Yeah. Good. And Margi, it's been great to have you. Thanks for joining us.
Margi Dehlin [03:27:58] Thank you, babe.
John Dehlin [03:27:58] Yeah. All right, so come on right back for part two for more from Summer Rain Barrett. Thanks so much for everyone who supports Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation. We couldn't do it without you. Thanks for your donations. If you're a donor, and if you're not and you value this type of programming, Please go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. Your donations are tax deductible and we're transparent in our finances. And all that we do is try and support Mormons in their journeys and to promote informed consent and transparency in the church and to support people in transition. So thanks for your support. Come right back. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks, Summer.
Part Two: Faith Crisis Begins
Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1888
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 10, 2024. I'm here with my co host and partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:12] Hey, babe.
John Dehlin [00:00:14] And we are here in part two of an epic interview with Summer. Hey, Summer.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:00:19] Hello.
John Dehlin [00:00:20] Thanks for joining us.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:00:21] Thanks for having me.
John Dehlin [00:00:22] For those who didn't join before, we did a part one, like three and a half, almost four hours with Summer. Tell us your full name, Summer.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:00:30] Summer Ra is my first name and Barrett's my last name.
John Dehlin [00:00:33] Yeah. And Summer's got a super cool story. Just to give you a quick recap. Her dad, Burgess Owens, grew up in Florida, played NFL football for both the Oakland Raiders and also for the New York Jets. Her mom is from Trinidad Tobago. They got married, ended up joining the Mormon Church. Had how many kids?
Margi Dehlin [00:00:56] Six.
John Dehlin [00:00:57] Six kids.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:00:57] The oldest is six.
John Dehlin [00:00:59] And they kind of lived in the Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey kind of areas for most of their Mormon lives. And Summer talked about having, I think what you would characterize as a very positive Mormon upbringing up through young adulthood. And then where Summer's story deviated a bit was that she kind of, she didn't end up like doing the BYU graduation thing. She went to Syracuse eventually and kind of wasn't really active for about 10 years, but somehow escaped all that guilt and shame that so many Mormons get wrapped around the axle about. So she just lived a beautiful, full, metropolitan globe trotting lifestyle until she met her husband, who's a Utah Mormon, and they got married. So when we left y' all last, I don't know, you'd been temple married at the age of 31. How old were you? I was 31 and three kids later. It's around 2018. 18, which is where we left off. That's three kids. Into how many year marriage would it have been by that point?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:02:05] Eight years.
John Dehlin [00:02:06] Eight years, yeah. But things were going well. And so today we're going to conclude we'll be talking about how does someone who is relatively raised her whole life in the church, has very positive experiences, is in a happy marriage with kids in Utah, what would cause some of the wheels to come off the wagon, so to speak. So we're going to talk about Summer's faith journey, her faith crisis. And then we're going to talk about Navig navigating a mixed faith marriage with her husband being very believing and devout, frankly, with her dad, Congressman Burgess Owens, being very devout and her mom also being still a believer. We're going to Talk about how she navigates all that and, you know, parenting and that sort of thing. And Margi, also.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:52] Can we just take a moment and appreciate your memory and summary? I feel like that was astounding.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:03:01] That was amazing.
John Dehlin [00:03:02] We just spent four hours with her, like, still.
Margi Dehlin [00:03:05] But that skill. That skill of, like, deciding what to include, sifting through all the. I'm just saying. Giving you a moment.
John Dehlin [00:03:13] Thank you. Thanks, sweetie. I guess after 20 years, hopefully I could do a little bit of something good. Anyway, thank you. That's sweet. So anything I left out of the summary that you.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:03:25] No, that was an amazing recap. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:03:28] All right, so summer after your temple marriage and three kids and having a happy living, your best Utah Mormon housewife life. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:03:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:03:41] Let's talk about the cracks developing and what happened.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:03:46] Yeah. So it was 2018. I also want to throw in there right after I left, being a flight attendant, Chris and I were. My husband. Chris and I were asked to be temple workers. So we actually worked in the temple, too, right out of. I mean, we were still newlyweds, which was really interesting. So I had a great experience even in the temple. I just. I didn't have a bad experience. Like, a lot of people talk about how they didn't have a bad. They had not a great experience for me, I was kind of told it was gonna be different, so I just kind of accepted it all. So I was going to the temple once a week at this point.
John Dehlin [00:04:38] That's a lot.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:39] That is a lot.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:04:40] I was going every Wednesday. I mean, it's not a lot for an east coaster, but being here in Utah and realizing it's, you know, it's like a goal that people do. But I was going once a week, every Wednesday. I would either do initiatories or do, you know, baptism. I never did baptism. Sorry. Initiatives or something like that. But that is where I was drawing everything from, was from the temple. And so. Oh, do you have a question?
John Dehlin [00:05:15] Well, I'm curious. We talked about how your parents raised you in sort of all the best ways, where the church wasn't the meal, it was like the salt or the flavoring. So you, like, escaped 10 years of inactivity without all the guilt and shame that others would. I guess I wanted to ask you just really quickly, you moved to Utah, you marry your husband, you have three kids, and you're living in, you know, Salt Lake area. What was it like doctrinally, theologically, culturally, to get immersed in Utah Mormonism sort of for the first time, did you find yourself. Yourself getting more Intense about doctrine and theology and the exclusive truth claims. Did you feel those hooks starting to go in you or did you just keep. Were you able to maintain in your mind this sort of low key east coast, more nonchalant, less intense Mormonism, or was it starting to get intense for you?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:06:15] That's a really good question. I think because we got married so late in life, my theology, my spirituality was kind of set already. So it was hard to shake. I know that when I would come across someone that culturally was very dogmatic or something like that, I would write it off as it's just that person instead of thinking it is the whole institution. So I do know. Does that make sense? I do. For me, it was, you know, that's like that weird person that I knew in Pennsylvania who cared about how short my shorts were. So I didn't realize it was as prevalent as it is. And also I created my own safe space within my home with my children and then my family coming out here. So I was kind of able to create my own world within Utah culture.
John Dehlin [00:07:19] Okay, that's good perspective. I'm glad.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:07:21] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:22] And in a way, that's like what your parents did on the East Coast, Right? Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:07:27] So I didn't know any different. It's kind of what I grew up with.
John Dehlin [00:07:31] So when your faith started to be challenged, it wasn't because you were hating Utah Mormonism or orthodox Utah Mormonism?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:07:39] Not even a little bit. It was because, again, I felt as though everybody has their own journey. Some people are dogmatic, but those are the people that I don't hang out with. But that's fine for them to be over here and be judgmental, that's their path. That's what they want to do. So it wasn't. I didn't look at anything and say, culturally there's a problem because I created my own culture. And doctrinally I didn't have a problem because I guess I wasn't experienced enough to get the meat. I just always had the milk. So I. Doctrinally, I didn't have any problems because I knew just I knew what I knew. And then things I dived deep in was more like the Hugh Nibbly apologist stuff. So. Yeah, but I mean, I still like my best friend. I talked about Joey. He came to visit us.
John Dehlin [00:08:39] The Hawaiian flooded.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:08:40] No, that was Jesse.
John Dehlin [00:08:42] Oh, sorry.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:08:42] But Joey is my gay friend that got married. He's come out multiple times, been around my kids. They call him Uncle Joey. So before, I always wanted to make sure that my kids were in a Diverse environment. That honestly was my concern when I was in Utah and started, like I got pregnant with my oldest. I wanted to make sure that they grew up the way I did. Where when you see something different, it doesn't even faze you because you're used to seeing different. So that was primarily my focus. So they, they don't know that Uncle Joey has a husband because they're too young to, to understand that. But they know Uncle Joey. So when they find out that this is who he is, later in life they could say, I've known Uncle Joey forever. So he's not, you know, he's not the person that I've been told they are. Whatever.
Politics, Family, and Church Intersect
John Dehlin [00:09:47] And really quickly, we'll start at 2018, where the faith crisis develops. That's before your dad became a congressman in Utah. So your faith crisis comes before your dad becoming your dad.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:09:59] Well, my shelf is wobbling.
John Dehlin [00:10:01] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:10:01] Yeah. So no crisis yet. This is when we. I came across the priesthood ban essay. I don't even remember how I did, but Gospel topics essay, it was on the LDS site.
John Dehlin [00:10:17] And just for our never Mormon listeners, the Mormon Church hid its history, denied its history, lied about its history, its problematic history for a century and a half or more. And then because of the Internet, starting in 2004, the Mormon Church just started getting hammered about its problematic history, lying about, hiding about it. And so by 2013, the church was losing people who felt lied to and deceived once the Internet helped them learn the truth. So the Mormon Church came out with these gospel topics essays that covered things like Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon with a stone and a hat. It covered things like the racist priesthood ban on black people and the temple ban on Black people. Before 1978, it covered the denial of the priesthood to women. It covered the Book of Abraham and the fact that it's not really a translation of ancient Egyptian scrolls like Joseph Smith claimed. Like so many of the big problems, polygamy and Joseph Smith marrying 14 year olds and mother, daughter pairs and sister pairs and lying to emma starting in 2013, but really in 2014. 15 these essays get dripped out and the church releases them in a way to where most members don't even know they're released. Most bishops don't even know they're released. They want to do a soft, quiet rollout so that they can be able to answer the accusation that they've been hiding in line. They could say, oh no, look, we issued these essays, but they didn't want to tell anyone. They issued the essays who were Members because they were worried that they'd read them and lose their faith. 2018, you're literally like four or five years after the church had released these
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:12:05] essays and didn't even know.
John Dehlin [00:12:07] Yeah, how'd you hear they existed?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:12:09] You know that's the thing is I don't even remember. I think I was googling something about the priesthood and it came up in the Google. That's I remember because I wasn't on the church site. I wasn't. And it said priesthood ban. And I just clicked on it and I'm reading this essay and it.
John Dehlin [00:12:32] What does it say? What are a couple things it says?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:12:34] So there's a couple things. So pretty much they say yeah, there was a priesthood ban. Black members, black male members could not receive the priesthood up until 79. 78. 78, sorry. 78. And then they talk about how but Joseph Smith did give the priesthood to one person that we know of, Elisha Abel. And they say we don't know why this happened but all the things that have been said up to this point are false. And the church disavows these teachings that blacks were not valiant in the pre existence and the curse of Cain. And so all of a sudden and
John Dehlin [00:13:22] don't they call it policy? It was policy, not doctrine.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:13:26] I believe they say policy in there. What stood out to me was Elijah Abel and them saying, because I'd never heard of him before and them saying temple that they weren't something with the temple ordinances. And I remember reading it and number one thinking I have never heard these reasonings before. So for the church to come out and say we disavow means it's a very prevalent thought that blacks were not valiant in the pre existence so that's why their skin is dark and or there's a curse of Cain. I had never heard that. So there's just never an explanation given. So once I heard that when I read it I just was like okay, that is really messed up. Like who is thinking this? Then when I read Elijah Abel I got emotional because I started realizing, well not realizing but I started to think what would it be like to have the priesthood to be allowed in the temple to do temple ordinances and then one day it be gone. When all my life all we talk about is temple ordinances and eternal covenants and that can only be done in the temple. So I remember I started crying, I was bawling and I was thinking this is so heartbreaking to have a name to someone who had the priesthood and it was taken away from not just a figure. And so, yeah, that was my. My shelf wobbling moment. And then I prayed and just got an answer that you're not gonna get the answers to everything pretty much. So went back to temple once a week.
John Dehlin [00:15:32] I was just looking. We did an episode on Mormon stories on Elijah Abel in April of 2006.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:15:40] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:15:41] Yeah, wow. Cause that was a huge thing for me. Like, what. Who is this? I never learned until I was 30 something that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to black people.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:15:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:54] How did. And who is this guy? How did that happen? Like, it's crazy. Yeah. And you were 20, 18.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:16:01] 2018. I mean, it was pretty much kind of a. Listen, we did do this. But just so you know, there were. You know, there was someone that got the priesthood through Joseph Smith, so kind of blamed Brigham Young, which a lot of the essays. Well, I don't know. But my interpretation is, you know, Brigham was the one. Look at him. But Joseph was good. So that's the thing is, that was when I had an emotional reaction to something that I was reading that was factual. And growing up on the east coast, we would go to Palmyra for youth conference, and that's where the Hill Cumorah is. And we'd watch the Hill Cumorah pageant. And there were people that had anti Mormon literature. And so we were told never to look at it, never to read it. But all of those things were the essays now. So it was a little bit confusing to say, wait a minute, Joseph Smith was a polygamist. The church is now saying he was. But I was raised to think it was Brigham Young, and the reason why was because men were dying on the trail, so he had to marry. I mean, it was. There were all these things I was told, and now it's like, oh, no, rocking the hat. First time I heard about that was South Park. I watched that episode, and I remember thinking, they don't know our faith. And then, boom.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:35] As it turns out,
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:17:38] my. How the turntables. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:17:43] So, okay, so you're discovering this stuff, reading this essay. I mean, I just have to say it. Like we talked about when your parents joined the church in 1983.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:17:58] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:17:59] Five years after the priesthood ban had been lifted. They. Your dad wasn't told. This is in last episode. Your dad wasn't told until two days before his baptism about the priesthood being by somebody else.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:18:10] And then he calls and says, not by the church.
John Dehlin [00:18:12] Like, to this day, it's 2024. A gazillion Africans are being baptized in the Mormon Church, and they have no idea, with no idea that this history exists. We've interviewed so many white and black Mormon missionaries that went and taught in the south and baptized black people into the Mormon Church with them never being honest about that history. Yeah, it's kind of mind boggling. It must have been just mind blowing for you to be a person of color and to be discovering this at what age, you know?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:18:46] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was, what, 38 this time?
John Dehlin [00:18:51] Like, it's kind of. I'll just call it out. It's immoral. It's unethical for the church to not provide black people, people of color, with informed consent around this history and then have them join the church, spend their lives in the church, and then discover this when they're in their 30s or 40s or 50s. It's just unconscious.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:19:13] That still happens. I think that was the issue was more. It was me all over again in college at Syracuse, raising my hand, telling my professor, the FBI never infiltrated the Black Panther Party. That's how it felt. It felt like, wait a minute, I've been representing this religion, this faith, saying, I am Mormon, I am lds. That's when we were allowed to say we were Mormon without knowing this part. So when people say your faith is racist, I have no idea what they're talking about or why. And now I'm reading from the church's own website. Why? So that was a bit heartbreaking. But also, it's always been called the priesthood ban, not the temple ban. I had no idea that black families were not sealed, they were not allowed. I mean, it makes sense when you think about it. But that was heartbreaking to me to hear that there are these black families and they are not being allowed to be sealed because God is saying your skin color. That doesn't make sense to me. So, yeah, that was 2018.
John Dehlin [00:20:38] Yeah. Okay. So did, like, it all fall apart or was that just a crack or an initial weight on the shelf?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:20:46] Yeah, so it was just a crack, just initial weight. My father decided in 2019 to run for office for the first time ever. We have always, like I said, we leaned conservative growing up politically. Politically. But we actually, in 2019, that summer we had. My husband and I had gotten the impression that we should sell our house. We didn't know why or where we were gonna go, so we did. And then in November, we ended up moving in with my dad with my kids and our German shepherd. And then that same month, my dad announced that he wanted to run for office. So it was fortuitous because I was right there. I remember I could go upstairs and kind of say hey dad, you've got an interview in five minutes or something like that. I was a very big part of his campaign still am. So it was nice to be there. My dad is the type that loves having his grandkids close, so he loved us being there also. So it worked out really well around this time. That was 2019. In 2020, Covid hit but we had. Sorry. In 2018 when all of this kind of was falling apart, I had introduced my husband to Tim Ballard of our. Should we put a trigger?
John Dehlin [00:22:33] Yeah, all sorts of triggers. Sure.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:37] Ye.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:22:38] And so I was a CrossFitter I'd found CrossFit our years prior. I met Tim Ballard there and all that. My husband's a doctor and I introduced them and pretty much said anything you need like medical wise that would help our Let us know. My husband is very into service. Right after we got married we did a mission trip, not a medical mission trip to non denominational to Guatemala. So he's very about what can I do to help? Tim came back and said that they have an orphanage in Haiti and if he could kind of be the overseer of that, that would be awesome. So from 2018 my father and my husband went down to Haiti. They met the people there, they met the orphanage, all of that. Now we Fast forward to 2020 and my husband is starting to. He is sending medicine down from hospitals, things like that. There's a person down there who is requesting things. He was saying like Tylenol is $5,000 kind of thing. And because our had such a big piggy bank, I think it was easy for them to say, oh, whatever you need in the orphanage. Well, my husband started looking at the books and saying this doesn't match up. This shouldn't cost this much money. Where did this go? Whatever. He ends up speaking to the director of the orphanage down there and the nurse finding out that there's a whole bunch of corruption going on, money's being funneled elsewhere and this wasn't Tim Ballard. Like he wasn't over the orphanage, but the person that was over the orphanage was taking all this money. So my husband talks to Tim in 2020 and tells him, listen, this is bad. You got to get this guy out of here. And long story short, he does not get rid of the guy. And the whistleblowers were fired in Haiti which already is impoverished. So since 2020 my husband has been trying to get them from Haiti to the US One of them, one of the families is lds. So it was interesting to kind of go through this, looking the priesthood ban, looking at how blacks are treated. But we're also helping this Haitian family. And we've, you know, now, the person that was in charge of the orphanage was lds. He was a former bishop, and he was the one that was kind of siphoning this money. So this was another crack on the shelf where I'm like, these are really good people and they're being taken advantage of over here, and I'm not understanding why. And again, one of the family members, one of the families is lds. So he's trusting this guy because he's a former bishop and the guy is taking money. He has, you know, he's doing all this stuff. So that was another crack around 2020, where I'm thinking, what's going on right now then? I think the biggest schism, ironically happened during my father's campaign. And there were. It was tough. That first campaign was really hard, especially for family members. I don't think people realize how tough it is. I was talking to Margi a little while ago about how I think politics and religion and things like that, they dehumanize people so that there's a more us versus them mentality. And so we are in the political sphere for the first time, and there were lies upon lies that are being told. And it was so hard because I am not someone who stays quiet. So I'm, you know, on social media and calling, telling all these people off. But Deseret News and KSL started repeating some of these stories, and I could not understand that because they are owned by the church. So you.
John Dehlin [00:27:30] Can I just maybe. Oh, I. Don't interrupt. Keep going in the.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:27:33] No, no, no, no, no. Go ahead.
John Dehlin [00:27:34] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:27:34] Because I remember my thought.
John Dehlin [00:27:36] So as. So I was a political science major. I worked on Capitol Hill. Like, I worked for a congressman. And, you know, so I followed politics for a long, long time and following the Mormon Church, I just kind of assumed. And you may not even be able to answer this. I just assumed that no one would become a congressman or a senator or a governor in Utah without the Mormon Church's approval. That's just kind of like if. Like. Let me take that back. So who did. Who did your dad beat? Who was the.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:28:09] Ben.
John Dehlin [00:28:09] Ben McAdams.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:28:10] Right.
John Dehlin [00:28:10] So, you know, I've met Ben. He's always been super nice to me. He was super nice. You know, every time I've met him, he's been super nice. I don't think in my mind Democrats can become Congressmen without the church's approval. But I just kind of figured the Republicans in Utah and the Mormon Church were lockstep, hand in hand, and that the Mormon Church's candidate would always be a Mormon who is a Republican. And so when your dad beats Ben McAdams, in my mind, I'm just like, oh, that's what the church wanted. So, like, I don't know if you're even able to respond to that, but that's how I think about Utah, and it may be totally wrong.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:28:51] Well, and that's the thing is, I'm not sure the inner goings, honestly, of what the church itself wanted and who they wanted. All I know is, is that a newspaper, several newspapers owned by the church, was printing false things.
John Dehlin [00:29:14] And you would just assume the church would never let that happen.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:29:16] Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Like, for example, you know, they said that he went bankrupt six times, and it was twice. And it was hard to go through that because I'm reading these things, and I'm saying we lived it. Like, I was there when my parents lost everything. And the second time, I talked about the Brooklyn, but the second time was during the housing market. So it was very difficult to combat these stories. And now they're coming from kind of like a source that people trust. And I'm sitting here thinking, I was there. I was there with the bishop's pantry, storehouse stuff, powdered eggs and things like that. Like this. Really. We went through something, but because we're now in politics, we're gonna dehumanize it, and we're gonna exaggerate it and reflect this on your character. So it was very hard to go through that. Like we talked about. I was raised. You can agree to disagree, be respectful. So it was very difficult to come into a space where those rules are all broken, especially in Utah. I'm gonna be honest. I just assumed Utah would be different because it's Utah.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:49] Mm.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:30:50] And it wasn't in the sense of. It just got nasty with the lies. I know I wanted to sue everybody and everything. And our political consultant is always the one that's like, you can't sue everyone, Summer. But I was mad. But the thing is, is that by the time you catch up with one lie, another one comes out, and then another one comes out. So we were combating that. But I remember talking to my husband during the campaign and saying, this is the corporate side of church. And it's so funny because I heard that in Jubilee, the corporate. I remember saying that to my husband, there's the gospel. And then there's the corporate side of the church, and this is the corporate side. This isn't the leaders. So in my mind, I started separating the two because this is a black man who's running for Congress. He's conservative. I mean, people disagree with his politics. But my dad is one of the most honest, great people out there. So humble. So I'm looking at all these factors and saying, why are they printing these things about him? So that's where the schism started. And I think once schisms start, they just get bigger. Where. When you start to say, well, there's a corporate side of the church, there's a gospel side, then you're now becoming so nuanced that things can creep in, I think if you start to. So anyway, so that's.
John Dehlin [00:32:35] So it's. Politics is brutal, and it's brutal in Utah and people. Your dad was really mistreated, and I guess. I imagine. Well, I guess he probably had a really hard primary battle, and he probably. I know that Ben McAdams race was really close.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:32:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:32:52] So that must have been awful.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:32:54] Yeah. And again, like, talk about issues, that's one thing. But the ad hominem, the personal attacks, the. We're gonna pretend this happened, but it didn't. That's what was difficult because I'm all. There are few things about me. I don't like lies. It's. My children know this. It's the one thing I cannot abide. I will support you and be there for you, but be honest, don't lie. I get that from my mother's side of the family. Growing up, it was in correlation with intelligence. Where my grandmother and my mother, if you lied to them, would say, do you think I'm stupid? So it was a disrespect. It was beyond anything. Just. I'm trying to cover it up. It is. You think I'm dumb enough to not know the truth, and you're being disrespectful because you're not being honest with me. So I've carried that throughout my life. I do not like lies and I don't like bullies. So those two things. And those will factor into the deconstruction later, obviously. But those two things is what I battled during my father's campaign, and he was fine. He's all about, you know, I'm out here, I'm gonna do my thing. I wasn't fine because somebody that I love is being lied on, and I don't like that. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:31] And you're interpreting the church as doing that it's the church that actually you can connect at least somewhat to it.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:34:40] And I have friends on the east coast who don't get the Ensign because they're non members, but they hear Deseret News is owned by the church. And they're calling me saying, why is the church writing things about your dad in a negative way? And then I have to explain to them what that it's owned, but it's not. And it was something that I wasn't prepared for. I thought if anything, it would be neutral. But I'm getting these phone calls saying, why are they writing these things? So Anyway, that was 2020 when we won, and I sat down with our political consultant and I said, I'm not going to go through this again with the church. So I'm going to set up a meeting and speak with them directly and talk to them about this. So I did. I got a meeting. I said, I'm not going as a campaign. I'm going as a daughter. So I went to church headquarters, I met with one of the 70, and I printed out all of these articles from KSL and Deseret. And I said, this is what. These are what my friends are seeing on the East Coast. This is not a good look for the church. I'm talking about the gospel and they're seeing this. And even though they don't support my dad politically, I have one friend that's a Bernie Sanders supporter. They know who my dad is and they know this is false. So I remember getting a little choked up because I talked about how what my dad went through being a black member, his family is from Florida. They're not accepting, like, they don't. They don't think it's. They never joined the church. So I was just saying he's put himself out there. He's an active, proud, true believing member, faithful, faithful, temple going, temple recommend person. And the church's paper is doing this.
Margi Dehlin [00:36:49] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:36:50] And so they kind of explained that, you know, they don't tell them what to write and things like that. And I said, listen, I get that, but if you can't tell them to be neutral with these matters or whatever, then maybe you need to sell it because you obviously don't have the control over that.
John Dehlin [00:37:16] It's also absolutely untrue that they don't tell people what to write. I was gonna say, are you kidding me? Like, the fact that they didn't did two gazillion articles on Tim Ballard because that Marcel Ballard was homies with Tim Ballard, like, yeah, they control what The KSL and Desert News do all the time. They have to.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:37:32] No, a member of the city told me. They told me they don't.
John Dehlin [00:37:37] Yeah, so there's no chance that's true. I mean, because those things don't make money. The Desert News doesn't make money. It's a huge money drain.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:37:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:46] They literally own it because they want to help shape people's opinions and they want to have their spin on the news. What else would they do?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:37:54] Well, I mean, it's the Times and Seasons. I mean, that's what the church has done. Right. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to, especially back then, when there's such anti Mormon things out there, you having your own publication. I think the problem is when there are lies, because this is a church paper. So just stay neutral if you don't want to be for somebody, but don't lie. And that's that. Again, the lying thing bothered me. I remember talking to a friend at the time and she couldn't believe I went to church headquarters to talk to them, and I just couldn't understand. Why not? Yeah, because that's who I needed to speak to. I don't need to speak to Sherry Due. I need to speak to the church and find out why. You know, because it wasn't a campaign matter. If it's a campaign matter, we'll go to Deseret and say, this is what you're doing. But it was a personal thing, in my opinion, so I did that.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:06] How did you feel coming out of that meeting?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:39:09] I felt very good about the conversation. I felt good about letting them know how it was affecting the family, but also missionary work. I mean, that's what I was trying to explain was this is a black member of Congress from Utah. He's an active member. People are looking to him. And if you denigrate him, that doesn't look good on the church. The other thing, too, was they print his conversion story all the time. So I was kind of thinking, why are you posting these positive conversion stories? But then you're also saying these. These bad things. You know, it didn't feel fair to me that when it was a positive, that would help the church, they can use it. So I felt good leaving the meeting. But did you feel like they're gonna
Margi Dehlin [00:40:11] do when they kind of responded saying, we don't really have control over what's printed? Or at that time, did you believe that? Were you like, oh, okay, or was there part of you that was like, do you remember?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:40:31] I remember when they said we don't control it. I remember thinking, even if you don't, you can talk to somebody because this is affecting the church in a negative way. So I believed that they didn't. But at the same time, I was thinking, you have enough sway that you can talk to editors and just say, listen, guys, double check. I wasn't saying this is what you have to write. I'm just saying you're printing things that are not true and people are picking it up on the east coast. And it's looking. It's not making my dad look bad, it's making LDS faith look bad.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:18] Yeah, yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:41:19] So when I walked out, I felt good because they did say that they were gonna talk to them and take it up the chain. And so I felt like I at least expressed this point and I was hoping that there'd be a change. And there was. There was. I mean, again, it wasn't about printing favorable. It was just. Just double check and don't be nasty. So, yeah, I mean, they still printed what they printed, but they definitely were a lot more vigilant in what they were posting. So that was good. But again, that was part of my, okay, what's going on here thing of now that you're saying they don't control this paper, but you own it. So where is this disconnect happening? You know, it just didn't make sense. Where is it? Where does the corporate side begin and where does it end? So that's what I'm kind of working out through my mind at this point. And that was 2021. Yeah, January 2021.
John Dehlin [00:42:33] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:34] Right after that little snowball, you're kind of having accumulation as you go.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:42:39] Yeah. And that was a big. Again, you know, seeing the Haitian families, they're on the streets, gangs are taking over their homes. And the person that was taking this money is an LDS person, was in a position of power. It was difficult to have that happen. And at the same time, these newspaper articles are being read and written and it's coming from the church. So it's like, what is going on? So I just kept. And then at the same time, this was around the time that the whole news thing happened with Uchtdorf. And I think they said that he donated to the Biden campaign or something leaked like that. President Uchtdorf and a lot of members were upset. And I just remember saying to my husband, if you put all your faith in the leaders, this is what's going to happen. The Book of Mormon's true, the Gospel's true, but church leaders are fallible so don't look to them like, if one of them donates to Trump, if one of them donates to Biden, that shouldn't alter how you see the gospel. So it sounds great. But even that was me starting to break away from the leaders are infallible narrative, which I wasn't really raised on anyway. My mother and father always like, pray about it yourself and you'll get an answer. So it wasn't very difficult for me to say, why do you guys have a problem with this? That's who he. That's who he supports or doesn't, whatever the article ended up coming out with. But why does that bother you? That's nothing to do with the gospel. Does that make sense?
John Dehlin [00:44:39] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:44:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:40] Okay. So now we're like three years ago, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:44:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:45] And so you're starting to have this awakening about racism now your dad's been treated badly and it's 2021.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:44:56] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:44:57] It's in the middle of COVID Yeah. Your dad's a congressman now.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:45:00] Right.
John Dehlin [00:45:01] What happens next?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:45:03] So we end up again staying there. It was great. And then in 2022, trying to think, I believe it was the summer of 2022, we moved into a house. So we moved out. And something made me look at the essays again. And I'm going to say, too little things were happening around this time also, and Maybe even in 2019, you guys would remember. But there were little racism things that were going on. They had a student council, a student ask, a question, answer panel, and it were black people up there. And they were able to text their questions in. And some of the questions started getting nasty. I don't know if you heard about that at byu. And they just started getting really nasty because they could text them through the Internet. So it wasn't the people that were in the audience. And the questions were so demeaning and horrible. And it came out.
John Dehlin [00:46:24] I know that Brad Wilcox made his super dumb statement in early 2022 where he basically says, so many Mormons are asking why black people didn't get the priesthood until 1978. What we should be asking is, why didn't white people get the LDS priesthood until 1830. Right. And then that. That was the birth of the Black Menaces on BYU campus. So in early 2022, that was.
Priesthood Restrictions, Race, and Difficult History
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:46:50] So this was before Wilcox. This was before Wilcox.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:53] Is it connected to Black Lives Matter at all? Is it on the tail of.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:46:58] So all of this is on the tail of all of this because people are now more sensitive to race issues. And I don't know if it wasn't at the tail end of Black Lives Matter, if it would have even made the paper. But this panel thing, I felt for this. I mean, they talked to the panelists after, and she just said, I felt like a character. And she felt horrible after this panel. And she was up there to answer questions. And it was a student. There were teachers there. They didn't stop it. So it was a big. It was a big controversy because the professors didn't stop it. And then Brother Wilcox with, you know, what's up with that? He did that. So there were like little things going on.
John Dehlin [00:47:49] But that's funny, Wilcox, what's up with that? Like, that's exactly how he said it. That was so good.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:47:55] What's up. So there's just little things. And I'm like, what is. What is this? It's so weird. But again, I started already saying the people and the gospel and not the people, as in don't let the, you know, don't let someone in your ward. I'm looking at the leaders and I'm saying the leaders could be wrong, but this is true. So it wasn't my ward, you know, members. It was my. It wasn't my neighbors. So anyway, November 2022, something made me look at the essays again. And I don't remember what it was. I don't remember. It was. It may have been my friend. I had a friend have a friend. She left the church in 2021, and she'd called me. We were friends from Pennsylvania. We went to high school together. She had a blog, an LDS blog to help people with answers. And she started reading the Saints and.
John Dehlin [00:49:01] Which is a history book the church put out to start, to try to start telling its honest history in a very whitewashed, apologetic way, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:49:12] And she prayed, she cried, she was like, what is going on? And she left. But she called me to tell me in 2021 that she had left. And I remember talking to her for two and a half hours, her telling me everything that she'd learned. And we just had a really good conversation, then kept going. Fast forward to 2022, and something had made me look up the essays again. The priesthood band essay. And I don't remember what it was, but this time when I read it, the part where they say even Brigham Young prophesied that this day would come, that the priesthood ban would be lifted stuck out to me. And I was like, I'm hearing a lot of stuff about byu. I'm hearing a lot of talk about Brigham Young and how they should change the name. When did he prophesy that this was going to be lifted? So I followed the footnotes and saw the lovely talk that he gave about black people. I'm being extremely sarcastic. Trigger warning. When I talk about Brigham Young, I'm generally being sarcastic, but he talked about how curse of Cain, black shin hold the priesthood, all that stuff. And then he says, after. And I'm paraphrasing, but he says, after all the other races receive the priesthood pretty much in the next life, then blacks will receive the priesthood. And to read what he actually said, and the fact that the church had put that in the essay the way that they did bothered me a lot because it wasn't true. And that was the first time I started seeing. Wait a minute. If I hadn't followed this footnote, I would have thought that Brigham Young prophesied that this day would happen. And he wasn't talking about this day. He was literally talking about after the second coming, you know, so that was what started. And I remember talking to my husband about it and him kind of, you know, doing the. Well, you know, we don't understand why God chooses who they choose and all of that. And I understood that. But then I said, well, let's start reading the essays together. And we read the book of Abraham 1. And that was the last. The first and last essay that we read together. He read it and he said, why is this so apologetic? And I said, well, I don't know. And then we just never talked about it again.
John Dehlin [00:52:24] Probably because it was making him uncomfortable as a believer. He didn't want anything to question, to challenge his faith.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:52:30] Well, and when you're in a faith that knows, it's difficult to have questions that can come up with, I don't know. And that's what that was. He read it and he got the apologist angle, but he didn't know why. So, you know, to a lot of people, it's why even keep talking about. If we won't get to an answer, we don't know. So let's just. Why talk about it? Whereas I'll talk in circles because I think it's fun to figure it out. So anyway, that was. That started happening. And then.
Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon Truth Claims
John Dehlin [00:53:09] What do you think about the Book of Abraham essay?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:53:11] I was. I mean, I was shocked. I was shocked.
John Dehlin [00:53:16] For those who don't even know what we're talking about.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:53:17] Oh, sorry. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:53:19] Just kind of give the summary of what.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:53:21] So Book of Abraham is something that we have in our. It's canonized in our scripture. It is literally the book of Abraham. And it is something that was translated by Joseph Smith from papyri that he found. Sorry, not found. He bought, purchased from kind of a traveling salesman. He purchased a mummy and this papyri and he translated it and it was the book of Abraham, including pictures and everything. What the church is now saying is this is not a translation because Egyptologists
John Dehlin [00:54:07] translated the papyrus later and the word Abraham doesn't even appear anywhere in the translation. So Joseph got it 100% wrong in every possible way.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:54:17] Right. And even the pictures.
John Dehlin [00:54:19] Yeah. And it's scripture. So like what do we do with the book of Abraham in our scriptures when it's 100% false translation.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:54:27] Right.
John Dehlin [00:54:27] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:54:29] And so that was. It bothered me, it shocked me. But I was already, I was already kind of going down this downward slope because of thinking of a group of people who are not allowed in the temple. Who. One person that was allowed and then the ban was taken away. Talking about Elijah, Abel and then to see this Brigham Young prophesied. Well, that's not exactly true. I'm already now saying, okay, I'm going to have to double triple check things that I've known all my life is how I started to feel then. But there's going to be a bottom. You know, I'm doing the research but I'm going to come back out. You know, it's not going to, it's not going to hurt me or affect me to ask these questions. But then I found the happiness letter and I don't. It was probably an algorithm or something, but it was Bill real and arthem they were doing. This wasn't even Mormon discussions. This was earlier on.
John Dehlin [00:55:39] Was Jonathan Streeter part of that?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:55:40] Maybe Jonathan Streeter was part of. Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [00:55:46] And this is a letter. Do you want me to. Do you want to tell. It's just basically Sidney Rigdon was Joseph Smith's right hand man. Joseph was hot for Sidney Rigdon's daughter Nancy, who I think was a teenager and she wasn't down with polygamy. So it's basically Joseph as I understand it. If I'm remembering right, it's Joseph writing Nancy a letter saying, hey look, what's wrong under one circumstance can be right under another. Polygamy may, you know, you may think that monogamy is the right thing and that's what the scriptures say and that's what I'm telling people publicly. But if God says it's okay and if I say it's okay because I'm your prophet, then it's okay. And it's basically saying that's the way to happiness is follow the prophet.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:56:32] Right? Follow the prophet. That is happiness. But there's also in there a condemnation threat of some kind where it says if you don't follow or if you don't believe this, then you're going to be condemned. Pretty much. I had gotten really into fundamental LDS documentaries at the time, like Warren Buffett,
John Dehlin [00:56:59] like Mormon, polygamous fundamentalist stuff.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:57:01] Sorry. Yeah, I should. Yeah, we got it. Because now there's another group but polygamists. And so Warren Jeffs, the aub. I started to really start finding all these things during COVID and I was watching these documentaries and I. My heart was breaking for these women, children in these societies. So I read the happiness letter and it eerily sounds like something Warren Jeffs would have written straight up. And that was when I said, whoa, what is going on? So then I got into the polygamy essays because I didn't know those the shy of 15. Joseph Smith married someone who was shy of 15.
John Dehlin [00:57:58] That was Helen Mark Kimball was 14 when he married her. So he married Joseph. Married a 14 year old, right? Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:58:06] I just started really doing this research and. And the picture again of what I was raised in wasn't what I'm seeing now. And this is now the beginning of 2023. And I now hear about the CES letter. Never even heard of it before. That's how like tight this bubble is. And I'm reading that and it pretty much. Jeremy, pretty much put in context all the questions I was having, plus some, of course. But to hear that he didn't get an answer bothered me because again, I'm a question asker and if you're asking these questions, there should be a response, there should be an answer. Then I found Nemo, the Mormon. So I started listening to him and then I found Mormon stories. RFM likes that. I found him and Bill Real before I found you.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:17] That tracks. So.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:59:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:21] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [00:59:21] So. But it was. It was. It. I was in a really, I don't want to say a dark place, but a hard place because I'm a communicator. My family, most of them are still active members. My father is an active member, my mom is, two of my sisters are. So I'm getting all this information, but I didn't want to tell anybody. And that was so difficult because I was so scared about taking something away from them that is so precious and has done such a good job for them. So I was terrified. And I remember I was going to A therapist at the time, I wanted to talk to my husband about it because he's my husband, but I'm very close to my family, and I just didn't want. I didn't want to burst their bubble because I was like, this. This works for you guys? And you're happy. I was happy six months ago, and I remember telling my therapist, murder among Mormons had just come out. No, it had come out before, but I had rewatched it, and I told my therapist, like, I don't want to Mark Hoffman anyone out of their testimony, because that's how I felt. I felt that's what I was doing by telling them the truth, I was stealing their testimony, and I just. I didn't want to do that. Yeah, so it was hard.
John Dehlin [01:01:14] I mean. Yeah, your husband was and is a believer. Your kids are being raised in the church. Your mom believed, your dad believed, you had siblings who were believing. And you're living in the heart of Utah.
Margi Dehlin [01:01:28] Exactly.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:01:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:29] Like, what would make you. And your dad's a congressman for the United States representing Utah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:01:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:01:35] There are a million. And you were grateful for your upbringing. What in the world would make you want to really let anyone know or talk to anyone? And you must have been, like, melting down inside, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:01:48] Well, yeah. And that's the thing is, again, one of my. I don't like to use the word trigger because people use it so much, but one of those things that I cannot abide is lying. And so when I start to see these lies, it bothers me to my core. I just keep thinking, it's not okay. This is not okay. The church is true. The gospel is true. The Book of Mormon is true, but this is not okay. You guys need to tell the truth about this stuff. So that's where I was, where I started splitting hairs. I literally. I remember thinking, you know what? Polygamy was not of God. Joseph practiced polygamy. Maybe he was martyred because he practiced polygamy, but the Book of Mormon is still true. Like, I was starting to split hairs because I wanted so badly for just a part of this to be true. And then you did the LDS discussions with Mike, and this is a series
John Dehlin [01:02:55] about Mormon church truth claims. You can find it on Spotify, on Apple podcast, or on YouTube or playlist, but it's just an attempt with me and Nemo and Mike and Julia's been helping out to just kind of, like, present all the facts in as neutral as a way as we can, because Mike. It's based on Mike's essays@ LDSDiscussions.com right. But it's just an attempt to say, here are all the facts so that you can know them all and then make your own decision. So you started watching that.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:03:24] I started watching that. I watched the witnesses one, I watched the Book of Mormon one, I watched the first vision one. So there I'm sitting here saying, wait a minute, what if the Book of Mormon isn't true? And again, I think I was blessed in this process because I was able to kind of deconstruct other things before getting to the core. Instead of everything getting ripped from me, I was able to see, okay, leaders are infallible. This. I was already thinking, Joseph Smith, you know, became an adulterer, so that's why he was murdered. I mean, I'm making up all these things, but the only thing that was remaining was the Book of Mormon. And when that was deconstructed, that's when everything fell. Fell out.
John Dehlin [01:04:18] Do you remember a couple of the things that stand out in your mind that made you start wondering or doubting the Book of Mormon's veracity?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:04:27] Well, the anachrosms and tell never Mormons what that means. So what it is, is it's when something is placed in. In the case of the Book of Mormon, something is placed in the Book of Mormon that could not be possible at the time. It would be like finding a photograph of Abraham Lincoln with a cell phone. You know that it's Photoshopped, you know that it's not real, because cell phones weren't there when Abraham Lincoln. So for me, that's when I started kind of seeing like, wait a minute, there were no horses. There were no. And I know, you know, people are now coming up with other reasons, but there were things that were taught about in the Book of Mormon that were not there then.
John Dehlin [01:05:15] Book of Mormon is basically supposed to be North, Central and South America between 600 BC and 400 AD. And it's got cows, it's got horses, it's got sheep, it's got weed and bows and arrows and chariots and steel swords. None of that existed. There's no evidence. Pick your best Mayan scholar from Yale. None of that stuff existed in the Americas between 600 BC and 400 AD.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:05:47] Right, right. And then I start then, you know, the church had taken away the Hill Cumorah Pageant. And I remember being like, why aren't they doing that?
John Dehlin [01:05:58] That's close to where you grew up.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:05:59] That's where I grew up. And I remember the pageant, and I loved the pageant. So I was Trying to understand why that was happening. And then I started seeing, and then I started thinking, they've never found anything. So that was kind of part of it.
John Dehlin [01:06:16] Like millions of soldiers supposedly fought battles and died at the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:06:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:06:24] But there's not one shred of archaeological evidence that that happened.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:06:26] Yes, yes. And the skin of blackness part started standing out to me in the Book of Mormon because I was thinking, well,
John Dehlin [01:06:38] you are a Lamanite, according to that.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:39] Lamanite.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:06:39] I'm a Lamanite. And so I should know my ancestry. Right. But I was. So I was reading it, and again, in the context of the priesthood band, now I'm thinking, what kind of God does that? What kind of God takes away this eternal covenant to a whole race of people? What kind of God makes a skin of blackness as a curse?
John Dehlin [01:07:06] As a curse for wickedness?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:07:08] Yeah. Like, he didn't give him a third eye. You know, he didn't. You know, it's like, wait, he cursed them with a skin of blackness? And then I found a podcast. It was Bill Real at rfm. I don't know which one it is, but they break down Marky Peterson, who I'd never heard of before. Sarcasm alert. He has amazing things to say about all people that are marginalized. Women, gay people, gays, blacks. He's fantastic. Apostle.
John Dehlin [01:07:47] Apostle Peterson, Just to give an example, I think he's the one that said, I don't have a problem with black people voting. They could have a watermelon or a Cadillac if they want to. That's the type of stuff he would say in this 60s.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:08:00] Yeah. He also said he was one that said that he would rather his daughter be killed or die than lose her chastity.
John Dehlin [01:08:09] Yeah, yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:08:10] Like, he was. He was. He was a piece of work, but he was an apostle. So I'm now hearing these teachings, and I'm like, okay, I know what Brigham Young is saying. I'm starting to see his thing. But now I've got Marky Peterson. What is going on here? Like, heavenly Father, where are you? Like, what is going on that these people are being called? And then on the same podcast, on the same YouTube thing, they talk about the American Indian placement program, which I'd never heard about either.
Margi Dehlin [01:08:46] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:08:48] Would you. Do you want to talk about that, Margi? Of what that was before?
John Dehlin [01:08:53] Margi does. Is it okay if I read this quote? Because I kind of slaughtered it. This is Markey Peterson. He writes, now, we are generous with the Negro. Okay. We are willing that the Negro have the. This is like in the 50s or 60s. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. But I would be willing that they have all the advantages they could get out of life in the world. So, I mean, thank you. Yeah. But he's also like, thank you against.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:09:27] Thank you, Elder Peterson, for the kind words of education for my people. I appreciate that.
John Dehlin [01:09:38] Yeah, I knew they were against interracial marriage, they were for segregation, they were against the civil rights movement.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:09:44] I didn't even know about civil rights or segregation yet, but I found out that President Kimball was very much against interracial marriage and dating. And again, I'm now looking at these leaders and saying, okay, there's more than one who is saying problematic, hurtful things. What is going on right now?
Native American Placement Program and Further Doubts
John Dehlin [01:10:08] And you were saying the Indian placement
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:10:09] program, the American Indian placement.
John Dehlin [01:10:11] You learned about that. Did you want.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:10:12] I learned, yeah. If Marky could talk about what that is.
John Dehlin [01:10:16] Do you want to, Mark?
Margi Dehlin [01:10:18] I was just going to do. I looked it up really quickly just so we could be a little more spot on. But yeah, it just says the program was developed according to LDS theology whereby conversion and assimilation to Mormonism could help Native Americans who had been classified as Lamanites in terms of theology in the Book of Mormon. An estimated 50,000 Native American children went through the program. Isn't it where they would take native indigenous people like children and put them in with Mormon families?
John Dehlin [01:10:52] White Mormon couples.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:53] That's right.
John Dehlin [01:10:53] Would take a foster children of Native American families into their Mormon white homes to take them out of their backwards quote culture, to put them in a faithful Mormon culture. And literally the teaching from Spencer V. Kimball and I think the Book of Mormon. So they were separated covenants. Oftentimes they were taken out of their homes, adopted. And then the idea was they would become light skinned, they would not only become righteous, but their skin would turn white. That's what was taught.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:24] And the thing that is striking, at least according is it took place from 1947 to 2000, the year 2000.
John Dehlin [01:11:33] Yeah, yeah. Relatively recent.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:11:36] I actually didn't know that, but.
John Dehlin [01:11:38] And it's cultural imperialism, cultural genocide, you could say. And I've met people that say, you know, who are, who are participants, who say they're really grateful for it.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:50] So it's like, were they white white people?
John Dehlin [01:11:53] No, no.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:54] Oh really?
John Dehlin [01:11:54] Some Native American adoptees I've met said it was the best thing ever happened to me. Life wasn't great on the Reservation. This family raised me well.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:12:02] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:12:02] And then I've met a gazillion other Mormon families where the. There was abuse and really bad things happened as well. So it's. But ultimately, it's a horrible program.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:12] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:12:13] Well, what I learned with the program, and also I watched your Mormon stories where you had the panel of. I believe they were women. Correct. All of them were women, I believe, of their experiences. But this specific YouTube podcast talked about the program because. And I don't remember who it was, but one of the apostles went up in General Conference and said how one of the Native American children's skin was changing and she was becoming lighter than her parents because she was accepting the gospel.
John Dehlin [01:12:53] And the term the Book of Mormon uses is white and delightsome. It says dark and loathsome. The Book of Mormon calls dark people dark and loathsome. And it calls white people white and delightsome.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:13:05] Right, Right.
John Dehlin [01:13:06] Yeah. So you didn't like that?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:13:10] Everything started taking a new meaning when I started to see what the leaders were teaching. And then I got upset because in that essay, it says the church disavows all these things that were said as if it was the members. And here I am singing General Conference talks where they're up there saying Curse of Cain. You know, as this Native American child is accepting the gospel, her skin is turning lighter. I mean, it's sick. The gaslighting of. We're going to pretend that it was you guys that put this out here. We don't know where it came from, but I'm watching it in real time. So that's where. That's where I started to really disassociate spiritually to Mormonism, where I'm no longer, you know, I'm no longer trying to read the scriptures to find the answers and things like that. I'm praying, but I'm saying I need to try to be as neutral as possible so I can figure out what's going on. And I remember buying a standard version Bible because I wanted to like what is being taught out there, not the King James Version. So my daughter was baptized and my mother gifts each of us scriptures. I still have my scriptures from when I was baptized. And I see on the title page, I think it is where they changed the caption for the Lamanites, where I think it says primary among the Lamanites, and they've changed it to, I don't remember now, but among the Lamanites, we can look it up. But my scriptures say something different than my daughters because they've updated It. Since finding out the DNA and that. Wait a minute, the Native Americans did not come from Israel, which is what the Book of Mormon says.
John Dehlin [01:15:36] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:15:37] So when they changed it in the scriptures, and. No, it's not the scripture, but the title page or whatever, I really started free falling. Like, what is going on? Like, I have this scripture and this scripture, and I'm seeing that they're different. So. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:58] Yeah. And the weird thing is, is that that change happened several decades ago, but when the church changes things, it doesn't ever really tell its members. It just doesn't. So I'll just read it just so people know what we're talking about. The original Book of Mormon title page that, by the way, I think, was Revelation from Joseph Smith. I think this title page, Joseph says was on the golden plates that he translated.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:16:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:16:24] So, like, there's no. They have no business changing it. Right. Like, because he supposedly translated this. It used to say. And they. Meaning the people he writes about in the book.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:16:36] Right.
John Dehlin [01:16:37] The Nephites and the Lamanites. And they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians. Right. That's what the Book of Mormon used to say.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:16:45] That's what mine says.
John Dehlin [01:16:46] And then in some sneaky way, a few decades ago, they just miraculously, quietly, subtly changed the title page to and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians. In other words, now. Now they tried to change it to say, well, okay, there's. And this is after the DNA stuff started to become a problem. They're realizing that none of the Native Americans trace their DNA ancestry to Israel and to Jews 600 years before Christ. It's all Bering Strait, Asiatic, Mongolia, you know, sort of Asian DNA.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:17:25] Right.
John Dehlin [01:17:25] And so, like, that in and of itself, is proving the Book of Mormon to be a fraud. So they need to at least try and shrink who the Lamanites and Nephites were to as small of a group as possible. So that people, you know, won't be asking, why is there a DNA problem? So they're saying, well, these Lamanites and Nephites, they're just a small, teeny little group that lived among all these, you know, other Native Americans in North, Central, South America that came from Asia, but it's a total sleight of hand, bait and switch.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:18:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:18:03] That in and of itself is kind of a smoking gun, I think.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:18:06] Well, I.
John Dehlin [01:18:07] And then you're learning about this decades after the change was made.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:18:10] Well, that's the thing. I wouldn't have even known that the change, because I still have my scriptures from when I was 8. I took it through seminary. I've got the notes in the. I still have circled the wicked and abominable Church, the horror of whatever. And in the corner it says Catholic, because that's what we were taught in the 90s. Like, this was what was taught. So I still have all these things. And then my daughter gets a new set of scriptures. I had no idea when they changed it. I'm just like, wait a minute. And thankfully, I still have my scriptures, so I can say, no, this is. This is not real.
John Dehlin [01:18:50] Julia's fact checking me, which is a good thing. She's saying that the change was made in 2013.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:18:59] Oh.
John Dehlin [01:19:01] And so it was reset. She's saying that the introduction was not on the golden plates. So if I'm wrong there, I apologize. That's my understanding. But if Julie's right, then she just saved me disseminating false information. How about this? Everyone, go learn for yourself and figure out what the truth is and then you'll know.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:19:24] Yes. Yes.
John Dehlin [01:19:26] What's that, Margi? Oh, okay. Yeah. Thanks, Julia. Okay, go ahead.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:19:34] But no, that was. That was. There was just a lot of free fall happening. But I still. I wasn't in a space where I was exmo or postmo. I wasn't in a space. I was in a space of learning and unlearning things that I'd known all of my life. And then Facebook popped up with a meet Bill and Amanda Real in Alpine with John Dehlink. And I said, you know what? I think I'm going to try it. Then I'm going to go. And I came by myself. I met you, met Bill. And I was like, wow, it's kind of nice. They're nice over here. They don't have horns. Like, what is going on? Very welcoming, very open. But what I loved is we could ask questions, like openly asked questions. And people were openly asking Bill questions. And it was just a very open space. And that's what I grew up with. And that's what I was craving at that point because I couldn't get any answers to these other things. So, yeah, that was 2023.
John Dehlin [01:20:57] I have a question. So, like, yeah, when I went through my faith crisis, there was almost nothing. And then, you know, there were Mormon stories and some blogs, but by the time 2020, 21, 22 comes out, there's Bill Real, there's Radio Free Mormon, there's Year of Polygamy, there's Sunstone, you know, that's doing its thing. Mormon stories. There's so many communities there's ex Mormon Reddit. Right. There's all the Facebook and Instagram stuff. What's it like to, like, live in your little Mormon bubble? And for you, it wasn't just a bubble. It was a bubble within a bubble.
Margi Dehlin [01:21:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:33] And then not just discover that there are people like you, but that there are multiple communities and podcasts and YouTube channels, Nemo and Zelf on the shelf. And what's that like to just realize there's been this whole tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people in this conversation, totally unbeknownst to you, for now a decade or two. What was that like?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:21:54] It was insane. It was insane insanity because it's like you guys were here all along, but I didn't see you. It was so crazy. And I realized how the church has done a fantastic job with controlling information because I live in Utah and I did not know who John and Margy Dillon were. I'd never heard of you before. When I saw rfm, I thought he was an LDS member, Radio Free Mormon. I'm like, oh, Mormon, he's really smart. Lawyer guy. So it was insane to see Lindsey Hansen park, to see marriage on a tightrope, just to see these different avenues of wherever you are in your journey. I'm here. I'm here with you. It was fantastic. And I do feel like it's so important because. And you've mentioned this before with community. We all need community. But to know that someone is where you are or have been is so vital. When everything you've known is taken away, it's so important. I mean, I think it was. I think it was at this last thrive, or maybe it was. But you. I believe you'd mentioned how it's deconstructing your faith is similar to divorce.
John Dehlin [01:23:33] Yeah, it's. It. It's definitely. I. I've had so many gay Mormons, and we all know how traumatic being gay and Mormon can be because so many of them have ended their lives. So many gay Mormons have told me that losing their faith was way harder than being gay in the church. But it's associated with depression, with anxiety, with suicide, of course.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:23:58] Yeah, yeah. So that was very difficult. I'm now, now I'm starting to see that everything is kind of coming apart. But then the SEC report comes out around this time. So it was just a snowball. I mean, it was. Wasn't a snowball. It was a freaking avalanche by that point. It was like, okay, this is happening. This is happening. Book of Mormon. But when the SEC thing happened, I'm in the political sphere, I know how the SEC works. But I also know my father, I know my husband. They are orthodox. They are so honest. They are, you know, character driven. And then to see the SEC thing come out was. It wasn't even heartbreaking. I was ticked. I wasn't even sad. I was angry.
John Dehlin [01:25:01] And for those who don't know what we're talking about, but for many, many decades now, the church has had over $100 million in stocks and bonds and cash and real estate. And some whistleblowers over the past several years have brought that to light. And then more recently, it was announced the SEC fined the Mormon Church like, five or six million dollars for fudging their, you know, some of their reports to hide all this money intentionally because Mormon church leaders were worried that if the members knew how wealthy the church was, the church is now worth $250 billion, a quarter of a trillion dollars. If they knew that the church was that wealthy, they'd stop paying tithing. And the church wanted members to keep paying their tithing.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:25:52] Right.
John Dehlin [01:25:53] So that's why they got busted by the sec. And we still are waiting for IRS or other sanctions as well.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:26:01] Right. So that happened. And like I talked about my family, my father went bankrupt twice, you know, and he still paid tithing. Even when we had nothing, he was still paying 10% of nothing. Like, so to hear how much money the church has was one thing, but then to hear a church spokesperson blatantly say it was because we didn't want our members to know was a problem. It was a problem. And then I'm starting to see people say, well, it was the lawyers, the leaders didn't know. And then I'm now starting to say, well, what about discernment? And I'm thinking about murder among Mormons. And that picture with Mark Hoffman, where is discernment? What is happening? What is going on right now? So I was very upset. I was very, very upset when that came out. And I also know what that money could go to and help and where we're paying tithing. So that happened. And then the Boy Scout scandal stuff starts to pile on. Gosh, I mean, I followed a lot of your stories then, but Paul Steedman, that was with Jody Hildebrandt, but he talked about the Boy Scouts America and how he helped change laws in Idaho. So I listened to that. Then I went back to the other Boy Scout things that you had done, where pretty much, for those that were never Mormon and don't know, the Boy Scouts of America organization was emaciated in the LDS faith for decades. Where if you were an LDS boy, you went through Boy Scouts, you got Eagle Scout, you did all of that. They didn't have anything for girls. But I didn't even realize Boy Scouts America was a separate indy until I was older because it was the church. But then come to find out that there are abuses galore happening. Insane amount.
John Dehlin [01:28:28] Like at least 80,000 Mormon boys have claimed to have been abused as Boy Scouts by the church. And that's just the ones we know about. And I think the church voluntarily offered like 250 million to settle the all the lawsuits against, you know, all the Mormon kids abused in the Boy Scout program. So if the church is willing to pay at least 250 million.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:28:54] Right.
John Dehlin [01:28:54] And 80,000 Mormon boys have. Yeah, that's like Catholic Church level abuse.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:29:00] That's Catholic Church level of abuse. And so I am seeing this and I'm remembering about what happened when I was growing up in my own ward when we were told and believed my father was on the high council when this predator was found out. And PA I believe is a report state. They are mandatory reporting state. So I know that this person was reported and he was put in jail. I had no idea the epidemic of abuse that was happening and how little the church was doing to not just make retribution to the victims, but to prevent it from happening again. And like I had said earlier, bullying is another thing that I don't do. I don't like bullies. I'm one of those people that if I see someone getting bullied, I'm jumping in. So when I started to see kind of the church as this organization taking out the faith part of it and saying children are getting abused and nothing is changing. Not only is nothing changing, but laws are being passed or not passed to benefit churches, not kids. I started spiraling even more. I mean it was. And then the Arizona case happened with the girl who thinks she's abused by her father for 10 years or something and he had gone to two bishops and they never reported. And when I heard the church statement of we did everything legally we were supposed to do wasn't good enough, wasn't good enough. So it was just a pile on by that point. It wasn't even about truth claims at this point. It's about integrity and being honest and what is going on.
John Dehlin [01:31:13] Yeah, it's like an avalanche, like you say, of just so much just disappointment and lies and harm and disappointment, disappointment
Margi Dehlin [01:31:27] and pain and feeling betrayed in something
John Dehlin [01:31:29] in a church that you just looked at with rose colored glasses thinking, this is amazing. This is great. I love this place. Until you actually learn the truth.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:31:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:39] I have to ask you, you were in your faithful phase during the November 2015 policy where the church basically elevated same sex marriage to a status worse than being a rapist or a murderer in the church or child molester, and then like four years later rescinded it. Like, that was all during your faithful time and you had gay friends.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:32:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:06] I'm just wondering how that wasn't a crack for you or was.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:32:10] Wasn't. Because the information I was getting was controlled. I did not. I remember hearing or seeing an article about it when it was passed, and it's saying that children of LGBTQ families or couples cannot be baptized. And I remember going to my husband and saying, this doesn't make sense to me. And he said that, that they've always done this, like on his mission. He remembers that. Polygamous families and all this. And so he was explaining to me that what he was told from his mission days was it was to not divide the family. Right. So it didn't make sense. But I also didn't dig into what the policy was and said, and I just remember thinking, I need to do that to see what is actually happening. And then they rescinded it. They rescinded it. But even though they say policy, President Nelson, before he was President Nelson, did say it was doctrine in a talk. So that was something that a lot of my TBM friends were saying. Well, no, it was never doctrine. That's not what President Nelson said. So just FYI, doctrine changed.
John Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah. Yeah. All right. So like, did you reach a point where you just said it's not true or I don't believe it anymore? Or did have you. Did you suspend judgment on that or.
Sharing Doubts with a Spouse and Navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage
Margi Dehlin [01:33:50] And at any point during this time, are you. Have you told your husband anything?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:33:57] So I would say by my deconstruction, started in November of 22, 2022. By the spring of 2023, I knew it wasn't true anymore. So it was pretty quick. Everything then started stockpiling on that. The sec, the abuse cases. That was just icing on the cake for me. But at that point, the truth claims itself, I knew that wasn't true. So by that spring conference, I knew it wasn't true. And I ended up doing the. We did a whole weekend. I did it with maven of the abuse, reading all the views from Floodlit. So I did that while conference was going on. I remember it was playing downstairs and I'm upstairs With Maven, you know, showing these abusers within the church. And so that was my first time where I didn't listen to conference. I didn't take notes. I was a note taker. And I started to, again, spiritually disassociate myself. My husband is believing, and so he still goes to church and I go with him and the kids. But I just started saying this isn't true. The problem, though, is conference has conference talks, and when you're on this side, you start to hear the talks differently. So that was, I believe, the weak link conference where they talked about family members who are not active are weak links. I believe also that was the one where President Nelson said, if they are not a member, do not take advice from non members or inactive members. So there were a lot of things that were said that when I was in a faithful stage, I would not have taken to heart. But now I'm seeing it with a whole other lens and I'm just seeing how exclusive everything is and very us versus them. So that's been my process of. My husband. My husband actually does not know where I am. He knows that I have questions. He knows that I've had questions, but we have not sat down. And I have not said to him, I do not. I know the church is not true. I have not said that to him, but he knows that I am not in it like I was before. He sees that I don't come downstairs for conference, so he knows that aspect.
John Dehlin [01:37:07] Do you attend on Sunday still?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:37:09] I go on. I do go on Sunday. Some Sundays. This year has been difficult because it's Book of Mormon. Last year was a little easier because it was New Testament, Old Testament. We can do that. But the Book of Mormon has been a struggle knowing that it's not true. And so that has been. I do still go. I love our ward. We have an amazing ward. We go to a Polynesian ward. And so it's not. It's a very come as you are open. They have their own traditions, their own things that they bring in. So it feels like home for me.
John Dehlin [01:37:55] Isn't that a tradition in Utah for. For black members to attend Polynesian wards or. No.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:38:01] No.
John Dehlin [01:38:01] Okay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:38:02] No. They generally attend their home ward. I got again, a very strong impression when we were told to sell our house that we should start going to this ward. And so we started driving 30 minutes to this ward. And I'm just very grateful for them. They are amazing, amazing people. And again, I think it has a lot to do with that culture, the island culture, the loving culture. And they're not. They're very Jesus focused. So that's why I still go. I am right now. And, John, you and I have talked about this, but my children all have their own specific things that they go through. And my oldest does. She's always had anxiety. She's 11. And now she's starting to show signs of scrupulosity and ocd. And so that is something that I am now keeping an eye on, because she will say things to me like, you know, I didn't finish reading Scriptures last night. Is that okay, Mommy? And I'm like, sure, you know, I had to leave early one Sunday, and my husband wanted the kids to stay. And I said, they stay every week. Let them come home with me. This was after sacrament. And we get home, and my daughter says, I just keep having this feeling like something bad's gonna happen to Daddy, that he's gonna get into a car accident because we left early. So she's now starting to align blessings with a transactional God. And I wasn't raised with a transactional God. Like I said, we were taught grace. There's nothing we can do. So you just do your best. She is starting. She, the other day on the news, saw something. Someone was in an accident, and she asked if he kept his covenant. And then she said, because Daddy said, as long as you keep your covenants, you'll be kept safe. You know? And to my husband's credit, obviously, as a parent, you think that that is helping your child to say, well, as long as you do this, you'll be fine. But to a child who has scrupulosity or anxiety, it's terrible because now they feel like they can control everything with their good works. So that's my eldest, and I've been just really, really focused on that, I guess. Should I explain what scrupulosity is, or do you want to explain scrupulosity? Because I just realized. I just kind of threw that out there. It's an OCD anxiety, kind of a subset of OCD anxiety, from what I understand, that is tied to religion or religious beliefs. So what I thought of when I first read it was angels and demons, when that guy is, like, hitting himself with the thing and doing penance. It's that extreme. If I don't do this, something bad will happen. But it's tied to morality and religion, right?
John Dehlin [01:41:35] Yeah, absolutely. Good job. That was awesome. Yay.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:41:38] I should have a degree.
John Dehlin [01:41:39] Absolutely.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:41:40] In psychology.
John Dehlin [01:41:41] After all you've been through, you should have several. Let me ask you this there's going to be people that are like, wait a minute, your husband doesn't know that you don't believe in the church anymore. You haven't really told him all this stuff yet. You're telling the whole world. How does that, like, help people understand how that works? Like. Like, let's just say there's on a spectrum of communication within a marriage. There's going to be people that talk about every little thing. And, like, if a wife were to lose her faith, the husband would be like, tell me everything. And then would, like, go, well, I'm leaving too. Because if you're leaving and you found it's not true, I'm going with you. So talk about everything, share everything, and do everything together. And then there's like a whole, let's just say, opposite side of the stuff spectrum, where it's like, oh, yeah, we don't talk about that. Yeah, and I'm gone, but he's staying. Like, that's a whole different approach.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:42:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:42:37] Help those who are maybe are on the other side of the spectrum understand how that would work or not in a marriage.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:42:44] Well, what is. What's been difficult for myself is I'm a communicator. And so to get my thoughts out or to figure things out, I speak it. I have a best friend in Philadelphia that is a never Mormon, and I talk to him a lot about this, and so I'm able to kind of get it out. What I realized is everyone needs space to grow the way they're going to grow. And my friend, once I started telling him these things, he said to me some. I've known this for years. Like, I looked into Mormonism a couple years ago, and I didn't want to tell you, but I've had questions about these things, especially race. But he didn't. He gave me that space. He never brought up religion to me. So I want to respect that with everybody, including my husband, where he's believing he's orthodox and he's in that space. And what I've realized with myself is as I find people within this community that have transitioned out or are questioning it has allowed me to give him that space and that respect, because I don't feel the need to tell him everything or ask him anything when it comes to telling the whole world. That is for myself to know that if somebody is in a dark place or if somebody is in a place where they feel like things are falling apart, here is one more person who's been through it and can say that you can come out the other end, it's not the end of the world. So for me, that is one of the most important things is to connect with each other, but also not say, I'm going on Mormon stories. So we need to sit down so I can tell you everything. He's just not in that place and where it works for us. But I will say there was a. Some anger towards the church for taking away that line of communication with my husband, because it is the one thing we don't discuss. We discuss everything else. He's not an everyday, let's discuss everything person, but if I had questions, political, spiritual, anything, I could go to him. And this is the one thing that when I do, he shuts down because it's a very important thing to him and he believes it. So I just want to. Did that answer the question?
John Dehlin [01:45:47] I mean, I would only imagine that can be super hard, but maybe it's different for different people. For me, it would be impossible. But you guys are able to do it. Maybe that. Maybe it's healthy for y'.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:46:02] All.
John Dehlin [01:46:02] I don't know. Yeah, I guess that's a question.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:46:05] I mean, I don't. I don't want to say what's healthy or not healthy because it depends on the relationship. I'm part of a lot of mixed faith marriage groups, and I see the heartbreak. I see the. My spouse isn't budging or they are forcing this. I will say. And it's not difficult because I found a community to talk about what I'm going through. What is.
John Dehlin [01:46:35] Is that marriage on a tightrope or just other friends?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:46:39] Well, I wouldn't. It's all of you guys. It's all. It's everybody.
John Dehlin [01:46:44] It's Radio Free Mormon. Mormonism. Live.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:46:46] Thrive. Thrive.
John Dehlin [01:46:46] Thrive.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:46:47] Yeah. Thrive. Sunstone Lindsay Hanson Park. It's. It's everybody in this community. And I was saying, I was thinking I'm not gonna name people because there's so many people, but Nemo, John Streeter, I mean, Mike, so many people. And now Julie and Alyssa, where I don't feel like I'm going crazy. I can't imagine what this was like for you and Margi all those years ago, because now I pop that bubble. But I'm like, wow, okay. I'm not alone in this. So it's just. Yeah. What I would say. I was thinking the thought will come back to me. But what I was gonna say, which is what's the hardest part of it? It'll come back to me. But the lack of communication was difficult in the beginning. But Once I was able, I realized communication for me is to process my thoughts. And as long as I can communicate and process my thoughts, I don't have to burden him with all of this information that I may not have been receptive to three years ago, you know, and it is a burden. It's a burden when you learn the truth of something and are told this is now a lie. That is a heavy, heavy load. And so it's not something I want to put on people. So, yeah, I don't want to say if it's healthy or not, but it works for us.
John Dehlin [01:48:32] I mean, sometimes talking about it blows up your marriage.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:48:35] Right.
John Dehlin [01:48:35] And people get divorced pretty quickly. So that's bad for your marriage.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:48:39] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:40] So it's not straightforward. It just depends on the couple, I guess.
Margi Dehlin [01:48:43] I mean, what I hear is kind of a very, very practical approach for now, which is kind of like, hey, we have all these other areas where we connect regularly and we feel a sense of common values. And then we have. I have this area over here, which I'm sensing for. Maybe you've tried it. Maybe you've, you know, there's a block there. I'm experiencing a block. And so I'm going to outsource that one. So I'll just practically, I don't have to right now, go for everything. So for this one area, I'll outsource, get my needs met outside. And I think, you know, it reminds me, I read a book, New Rules of Marriage, I think, by Terence Reel. And in that book he talks about oftentimes, inevitably in marriage, when you're. Or partnership doesn't have to be marriage, but like when you're with someone for a long time, inevitably you reach like a block in your partner. You're maybe trying to, you know, be more intimate or be vulnerable or connect in a certain way or change an aspect of marriage. And for whatever reason, you. You come up against a block, a resistance, and it may be unexplained. You. They may have a sense of why, but for whatever reason, it feels like, wow, I really. I'm not going to be able to get through this. And in the book, he was talking about how the last. That a partner should never try to break down a block, should never try to move it. That that is for that person to do, because usually the block is there for a reason and there's greater risk at, like, breaking down the block too soon, that that's something they have to do when they're ready. It is their work to do. And that's Kind of what I'm sensing a bit.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:50:47] That's how as you talk. That's amazing. I mean I've never, I didn't read that book but that's exactly what how I was feeling when going through this with my husband. Of I don't want to cross a boundary. I need to be sensitive to him and what he needs and what he needs is for us to connect everywhere else. But just right now this is going to be put on the shelf. And so there's a lot of. The only way that this really works is if there's respect and there is a meeting of the minds of listen, this is a sensitive subject, whatever it is and we need to just tread lightly. We'll talk about it maybe even tonight, who knows. But until that block comes down a little bit, it's just not. That's not healthy to force and push that on him. And I was gonna say, I remember the only thing I have found hard is realizing the non believing spouse is the one that has to compromise. That has been difficult.
John Dehlin [01:52:10] In what ways are you compromising? I mean, I guess your kids are still going to church, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:52:15] I mean and all. Yeah, but it's not even really all of that as much as. It is. You have someone who knows, right. A spouse that knows because they know the gospel. And then you have the parent and this other spouse who is going through this faith transition and doesn't know. And what is being asked of the spouse who is leaving or having the transition is well, what are you going to fill this? If we take this away, what are you going to fill it with? And the one that's going through the faith crisis is trying to figure it out on their own as it is. Let alone I'm going to now fill what is gone.
John Dehlin [01:53:06] Do you mean the certainty when you say the certainty?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:53:08] The knowledge. I remember when RFM did the debate with it was midnight Mormons then. And I believe one of them asked what are you giving people when you're taking the gospel away from them? And that is. That is the expectation is I know, I know the church is true. I know the plan of salvation. I know you don't know. You don't know anything. So what are we going to teach our kids? What are we going to do? And so I do believe that the person that's going through the faith transition kind of takes a backseat, especially in the beginning at least because they don't know how to feel that certainty or that knowledge. They don't know. They don't know what to do with the, with that if they take it away. And so the compromise is really being quiet about your questions. My, I mean, mixed faith marriages with children, they understand that, you know, the believing spouse can pray, they can read scriptures, they can talk about tithing and fasting, because that's what the core was. And the non believing spouse, what do they do now? They can't talk to their children about not tithing. Right.
John Dehlin [01:54:39] Because without causing tension in the marriage. Absolutely.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:54:43] So that's what I'm saying is just there's a compromise there. And everybody says compromise, but when you are in a faith that is high demand, there really is. It's rigid. There is no compromise. I have seen on the marriage on a tightrope, which is a mixed faith marriage board, I have seen spouses say, well, I spoke with my spouse about tithing and he said that he'll tithe 5% and he'll allow me to tithe 5% to whatever I want to tithe to. That is fantastic for them. But for a lot of orthodox believing members, it's 10%. There is no 5%. 5%. 5% will go to church. 5% will go to charity or to our neighbors. No, it is 10%. So that's what I'm saying with the compromise. If the believing member is, this is what it is. This is what we're commanded. There is no compromise.
John Dehlin [01:55:55] Yeah, yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:55:57] And so that's been. I think the hardest thing is just to know that in every other aspect, you can kind of be open and figure yourself out and all that. But when it comes to this, when you know something and you're taking that away, it's just difficult.
John Dehlin [01:56:16] Some get really panicky that they just don't want their kids going to church at all. It sounds like you haven't demanded of your husband that your kids stop going to church.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:56:27] No, no. And that's why I was pointing out the scrupulosity earlier. My eldest is 11. She'll be 12 later this year. And she's now in young women, which I think is young. I feel like it was 12. You had to be 12 when I was growing up. Right. But now it's the year that you turn 12 and she got a calling. And I just monitor things like that. What kind of calling is it? Is it gonna put more stress on her? Is it gonna make her feel like she has to do certain things? It is. My kids is where I draw a line. And so again, if we weren't in the ward that we were in, we would have a whole different Discussion.
John Dehlin [01:57:15] But, oh, because you're in the Polynesian War, you feel like it's more Jesus focused.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:57:20] It absolutely is.
John Dehlin [01:57:21] Less rigid. Less.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:57:22] Yeah. And again, they bring in their own traditions. You know, hearing about a duen would not be. They would say, oh, we have that in our culture too. So it is. It's a very loving environment. And that's what I'm about for my children, is being loved. My son is autistic. He's nine. He's autistic and has adhd. And then my youngest has ADHD in every other ward. I was always constantly worried about my son. He is high functioning. So it took a long time for us to get diagnosed. I went through a lot of of tests and saying no to teachers and things like that until we got them diagnosed. But we are now in a ward where all the kids can be kids. And that's why I'm okay with it. My more focus. I feel like it's easier to manage things on a local level. It's harder the higher up in leadership. You go. Right. So general conference is where I start to say, okay, I need to listen to these talks. So I know what my kids are hearing and my husband, what are they walking away with and from. So I know I've seen a lot of comments before about, it's poison, it's toxic. How can you have your children go there right now? It's what works for my children and for me to attend. But that is also because I am being vigilant in what is being taught. And it's similar to what I experienced growing up. And it creates harmony in the sense of you don't have a spouse that's scared that he's only losing his whole family.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:25] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [01:59:25] So
John Dehlin [01:59:27] thank you so much for being so vulnerable. This is really, really useful stuff. I wanted just as an unpaid commercial, like, check out Marriage on a Tightrope. It's a Facebook group. It's a podcast. Katie and Alan Mount run it and they have a bunch of Marco Polo groups in addition to the Facebook group. But it's just a support community for Mormon mixed faith marriages, both for the believing spouses and for the non believing spouses. Fantastic resource. They even do online, like workshops or, you know, for.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:03] For couples.
John Dehlin [02:00:04] For couples, yeah. It's just great stuff.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:05] And Natasha is part of that. Natasha helps as well.
John Dehlin [02:00:07] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:08] Which is really awesome.
Challenges and Dynamics of Mixed-Faith Relationships
John Dehlin [02:00:10] Really quickly, I can think of two other dynamics that are very common. One is that the non believing spouse starts to get angry with the believing spouse. Sort of like you're hiding Your head in the sand, you're being foolish. You're being childlike. You're being dumb. Open your eyes. How could you stay in your ignorance? Why can't you grow up and see the truth? Sort of like that level of judgment and impatience. How have you been able to manage those feelings? Because obviously your husband's smart and thoughtful and kind. So it's not that he's dumb.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:00:46] Yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:00:46] I think the smarter they are, the harder it is. I talked to Dr. Lundell about that, and it thrives. St. George. Like, what do you do when your spouse is so smart? Because, you know, John went through the same thing. He's so smart. But what has helped me again is to find. To outsource the conversation has helped me, but also to just remember what I was like three years ago. Two years ago, when I spoke to my friend who left the church two years ago, I listened to her for three hours. It didn't shake my testimony at all, but I was there for her. And when I started going through this, I talked to her, and she said that I was one of the only friends who stayed friends with her. We have another friend that stayed friends with her, but a lot of people fell away. A lot of people stopped talking to her. I don't understand that. And so for me, I try to put myself in the other person's shoes. And that includes my husband. That includes my husband. And so I say, what if someone came to me three years ago? What if he had come to me three years ago and said, I don't believe this. What would I have done? And with his upbringing, what is it? So there was a stage where I think I was not angry about hiding in the stand, but I was more, why won't you just talk to me about this? Which I think is human nature. But then we did have conversations enough for me to understand that he loves me, he respects where I am. But it is a place that we just can't go right now. And so I can't be mad at that. I can't be mad at where someone else is. You know, it's not fair. And I wouldn't want someone to do that to me. So I want that same Christ like love that I want that same love. I want someone to look at me and say, this is where Summer is and I'm gonna love her where she is. I want that for me. So it's what I do for everybody else, including him.
John Dehlin [02:03:24] Can I get a hallelujah, Margi? Amen. I love it. Okay, I have one More question about that, if it's okay. This is great. Really great stuff. The biggest risk I see sort of in the medium to long term in mixed faith marriages is that the couple slowly drifts apart because you start seeing the world differently, you start making new friends, you start hanging out in different groups, you start feeling like you're just different and you can't really talk to each other and so you're confiding in other people. And over time, there's just risk of all sorts of ways growing apart spiritually, emotionally, intellectually and even socially. That might be one of the biggest medium to long term risks that I try and make people aware of. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to ask if you and your husband have grown apart, but I mean, how do you manage that? How do you manage that?
Margi Dehlin [02:04:34] So
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:04:36] what I was gonna say, I'm gonna say that for couples that, and I know couples that are like this where specific things is their connection, right? They only connect on this one thing. That's why there's a lot of people who have regret when they leave the church because they say, I would not have picked this spouse, I would not have lived this life.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:03] Right.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:05:03] And so what I will say is, thankfully the church was just one aspect that my husband and I connected on. And so as long as a couple is able to continue to connect on other aspects and just talk and be open, then I think even getting new friends and believing differently of the world can still work. I think that could still work. I do know that. But it's. If you got married and it was just because of religion, or you got married because this person is Republican and they changed their affiliation to Democrat because they now are seeing things, that's not going to go well because that's all you had. Thankfully, that's not all I've had with my husband, but I see that happening with people. Even friendships you see in the political world, oh, you voted for this person. We can no longer be friends. But we didn't become friends because of my political affiliation. So we had other things in common and we connected on this level. So I just don't think any thing should be the defining factor in a marriage. Unfortunately, sometimes it is, but I think it has to be multi pronged because if it's one, then once that's gone, even two, once the one is gone, it starts to wobble, you know, so it's, it's more work because there's something that's a very big part of your life that you are no longer sharing. And you're talking to other people about it. So there's more work to talk about the other things in your life and all of that. But, yeah, as long as you keep the respect and the patience and the love, I don't see it being a problem. But talk to me in five years.
John Dehlin [02:07:20] Yeah, I love it. In some ways, I don't know that I've seen a mixed faith couple marriage be doing as well as y' all are doing right now, based on how long I've known you and how you know what I'm hearing. So I think y' all are in a very high percentile of high functioning, given how little you've actually talked about things and how far along you are.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:07:46] Yes, yes, yes. And again, I think it's about respecting space. Right? So I'm not gonna come home and say the kids don't go to church anymore. That's not fair to him. And he's not gonna come to me and say, you have to sit for all five conference talks, you know, sessions. Yeah, sessions, sessions. So it's about respecting that space and then coming together when you can talk about certain things. Like, we still talk, but I've not sat down with him and said, this isn't true. This isn't true. This isn't true. I know he has assumptions, but we talk about other things around faith and religion and things like that. And he also knows my family. He knows that I was not raised on a transaction. So I don't know what it's like to say, I need to go to the temple, I need to pray, or he's not going to bless me. It was just about enhancing my connection. I go to the temple to enhance that connection, not to get, you know, whatever I want. I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense. But it's not transactional. God is love, and that's it. And so he wants to give everything to you, and he's not, like, withholding it and saying, ha, ha, ha. Summer hasn't figured it out yet. Got this blessing. Once she figures it out, I'll give it to her. But, you know, I don't. I never believe that that's what it was. So. So, yeah, yeah, it's. It's. It's. It's something that. It's just life, and you kind of figure out how to navigate it. But as I keep saying, as long as there's respect and love, and that's not just in personal relationships but in friendships, I just think the world would be better and there wouldn't be as many issues and dissension because it's like, I don't think the way you think, but that's fine.
John Dehlin [02:10:09] And what's beautiful about this episode is that's how your parents raised you. You're basically offering to your husband the love that your parents modeled for you when you were out of the church for 10 years.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:10:20] Absolutely right. Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:21] And all the practice of these beautiful, like, these beautifully diverse in all the ways, coming into your home and being able to love them all again where they are, that it creates this feeling of. Instead of like a very rigid small, gotta be perfect or optimized to get the love template. It's like, love is large and it's resilient and flexible and meets people where they are and, you know. So in many ways, you've been primed for this.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:11:01] I think so, too. Thank you for saying that. I think so too, in the sense of, like I said, my children are all neurodivergent in their own ways, and it's allowed me to just kind of see the beauty in everything and everyone, and I just don't. I want to emulate my parents love to everyone, where it's just a very open, if you need me, I am here, no matter what. Night and day that was my. Those were my parents. They still are my parents. And so that's what I would like to emulate. And I want my children to know that love, because if you have a parent who shows you that kind of love, it's easier for you to understand the love of a heavenly father. If I have a dismissive parent who doesn't talk to me, only gives me praise when I do something right, that's how I'm gonna see this guy. But if I see it as love and just come to me and I'm here for you because that's how I am with my kids, then my kids, I want them to just grow up and know that. That what you put out in the world is what you get back. And just be positive and happy and it'll come back to you tenfold
John Dehlin [02:12:29] beautiful.
Politics, Polarization, and Finding Common Ground
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:12:32] So
John Dehlin [02:12:36] I can't let you out here without asking at least one political question. But before I do, Margi, is there anything else you wanted to ask about transition or healing and growth and that sort of thing? Or is there anything, Summer, you wanted to say about your transition or your healing and growth? I. I'll. I'll ask Margi first. Or. Or do you think we covered what you wanted to cover?
Margi Dehlin [02:12:59] Margi, can you give me A minute?
John Dehlin [02:13:01] Yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:02] My brain kind of.
John Dehlin [02:13:02] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:03] Takes.
John Dehlin [02:13:03] Well, sh. My political question. And y' all could think of this if your political. All right, so there's sort. You know, we live in a very, very polarized world right now, especially in America. And there's, you know, let's just say there's the Trump side and there's the Biden side and the. The, you know, the Trump side. I'll just say they would think Biden's too old and Biden's corrupt and Hunter's corrupt and Democrats are corrupt and, you know, they're not taking care of the border and the wokeness is awful. And like, you know, we need to protect the rights of. Of babies and fetuses. And that's kind of one worldview. And it's very like, Biden and the Democrats are destroying America. Right. And then there's the, you know, the Biden Democrat side, which is like, Trump's telling people that the election was stolen and he led a insurrection and democracy is at stake and he's undermining the credibility of our democracy, and he abuses women and he's a liar and he's a felon, and, you know, like. And he's gonna ruin. He's gonna ruin America. Like, both sides think the other side is gonna ruin America. And both are really convinced that their worldview is absolutely true and that the other side's worldview is like, hogwash and gonna destroy the country.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:14:32] Right.
John Dehlin [02:14:32] So your dad is a politician. He's, you know, I don't know where he would be in that spectrum, and I don't even want you to try and speak for him. But you've been observing all of this. Utah is clearly more Trump than Biden. Mormons are definitely more. More Trump than Biden. Maybe one of the most Trumpy states in the United States. Like, what would you say to all of them, Both sides, just based on your experience with sort of an insider view to the political process from sort of your dad's world, what would you say to both sides and to all of us based on your experience? I know it's a big question, but you might have a couple things to say.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:15:22] Yeah, I will just start off and say that. When my father won the election, it was completely different seeing it from behind the scenes than in the front. The media, the politicians themselves, they're selling a bag of goods. Both sides. Both sides, really? Absolutely. Messaging is everything. Everything. And so. And that's my specialty. Right. Communications. And so messaging is what riles up your base. Both bases and so if a politician knows that securing the border will be great messaging, he'll go on the floor and say, I want to seal the border tomorrow, period. We're going to do it. Knowing he can't. Knowing it won't be secure tomorrow, there's no way. But he'll go on the floor and say all this stuff because it provokes
Margi Dehlin [02:16:36] a response, because it mobilizes.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:16:38] Absolutely. And it also does an us versus them mentality in the sense of. Of the politicians that are saying, that's not possible. We can't build a fence tomorrow. That's not possible, are now being demonized.
Margi Dehlin [02:16:54] I see.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:16:55] Right. So the ones that have been in office for a while, there are some that I had a lot of respect for, and behind the scenes, I realized that really they're just selling a bag of goods because now that person can push donation links about the fact that he wanted to secure the border and the Democrats didn't and someone in his own party didn't want to. What I would tell people is just be careful about what you see, because generally it is, number one, not what it looks like. And number two, it is meant to dehumanize the other side and demonize the other side, no matter what side you're on. And that's why both think the other one's gonna destroy the country. There was a saying that I read somewhere once. It said, be. Be. Oh gosh, be lavish in your praise, but be general with your praise and be specific with your criticisms. And I've always thought of that, where if someone is doing something wrong, I will say, I don't like what that person is doing. But when you demonize a group of people, that's where it starts to become a problem. So, yeah, that's what I would just say is just be very careful with the messaging. I mean, not all politicians are liars, but the longer they're there, the more I do see that there's an agenda. And a lot of them don't hate each other. A lot of them are behind the scenes shaking each other's hands and giving high fives, you know, and then they go on the floor and. And bark. So I would just say don't label. And for those that are watching this podcast, because most of them are never Mormon or exmo, but especially the ex Mormon community, I just want to say, number one, thank you for being so open to me and my story and loving, but be careful about being dogmatic in your ex Mormon views because it doesn't help bringing the dogma Of I'm right, you're wrong, from Mormonism into ex Mormonism, and saying I'm right, you're wrong doesn't help anybody. So. So all I would say is for anyone that's going through this, and they kind of are in a space of anger. I understand. I get it. And for anybody who's in a space where they feel like I need to tell everyone that this is wrong, this is false, this is lies. I understand, and I get it. But you don't want to be. Become the monster that you left. So I would just. I would say that. And that goes for politics as well. Just don't be so dogmatic. Try to find the. The thing that you both agree on.
John Dehlin [02:20:32] Common ground.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:20:34] Common ground. There's always common ground. Politicians don't make money off of common ground generally. But my father's done a ton of bipartisan bills, and he has a lot of friends across the aisle, as they say, because we can find common ground. I mean, that's the thing is I feel as though the media does kind of sow division. They do work with each other. It's just those aren't the sexy issues. Right. So bipartisan bill might pass, but it's not as sexy as securing the border or free health care or, you know, tuition. Free tuition or reparations. Those are the big things. And I think it's big because the media knows that those are not things that will be solved overnight.
Margi Dehlin [02:21:29] Yeah, yeah.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:21:30] And so it's. Let's talk about this so we can have people kind of fight and argue and.
Margi Dehlin [02:21:35] And
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:21:37] it's all about finding common ground. There, by the grace of God go I. It's a saying of, if I wasn't born where I was, and if I wasn't with my parents and I didn't have this family upbringing, I could be that person and think that way. So just try to understand where they're coming from and why they come from that. And so, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:22:03] Politically and religiously.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:22:04] Politically and religiously.
John Dehlin [02:22:06] Every other li.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:22:07] And every other Lee. Yes, Every other leaf.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:10] All the lease.
John Dehlin [02:22:11] All the Lees. Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, well, any final advice to. Let's say there's some people watching now that are believers, full believers, but they're just curious about your story or they're just in that early phase of trying to question, and they're terrified. Any final words of advice you want to offer to any of them?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:22:36] I would recommend. What is this? Mistakes Were Made, but not by Me.
John Dehlin [02:22:42] Great book. Classic.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:22:44] Fantastic book. I started reading it just recently about a Month ago on audible. Mistakes were made, but not by me. And I am telling you to understand the human psyche of why we do what we do and why we think the way we think and why we hold on to the things we hold on to really helps. It very much helps. What I want to tell my believing member friends out there who got through to this part, to this point know that even in LDS theology, we are told that we have a relationship with our Heavenly Father directly. I don't want anyone to ever feel like there is a block between that. Whether it is your own sins, your own weaknesses, your own insecurities, or a prophet, nothing is between you and that higher power. So just know that you can always tap into that. If you have questions, it's okay. Questions are fine. I'm very much about what you say all the time, John. Informed consent. As long as people know, I'm fine with wherever you land. I don't like the hiding and the lying, but as long as you know, that's good. I just want everyone to know that they have. They have divinity within themselves. I truly believe that when I wasn't active, I felt strong impressions to do things and not do things, and I wasn't thinking. It's because I took sacrament last Sunday. It is because I have a direct link to something outside of myself. So, yeah, don't. Don't throw the baby out the bathwater and just, just know that there are lots of us out here that are doing different things and we're in different places. Don't give up hope.
John Dehlin [02:25:03] Are there? I think I. Maybe I should have asked this earlier, but, like, are there some really hard parts that you still are trying to crack? Like, have you tried other churches? You know, are there, are there areas you're struggling with right now that you are still, like, really working on?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:25:25] Yeah, I think I've always. I think when you go through this, you're always working because you're kind of unlearning. The biggest thing for me when I was going through this last year was becoming very comfortable with not knowing in its human condition, to want to know. And when you're given something and said this is you have knowledge now, it's very difficult to let that go and not grab onto something else. I have not looked at other churches. I've been more focused on, again, my own, what I have within myself and not feeling the need to jump to a denomination to fill that space. Just knowing that I don't know, I don't know, and that's okay. I might know Tomorrow I might know. In a couple months, I might never know. But holding on to what I do know, which is my spiritual experiences were real when I had them. They just didn't come from where I was told they came from. That helped me tremendously. I think the first thing that happens when this yourself breaks is, how did I have these experiences? How did I have these promptings if it's not true? And what you have to do is say, wait, this was me. You know, this was me connecting some with something else. It had nothing to do with this other thing. So I don't know if that answered the question, but that. That's where I am. You know, it's not a difficult place for me to be because of my upbringing. We were so nuanced. My eldest daughter right now is really into telekinesis. Really into telekinesis, where she pulls out foil and she's moving it with her mind. And I'm all about it. You know, I said, make sure you meditate beforehand and get yourself. And, I mean, I just. I think, whatever. I'm not gonna yuck someone's yum. Whatever works for people to find their own individuality and their own divinity and make themselves feel special. As long as it doesn't harm others, I'm all for it.
Margi Dehlin [02:28:05] So.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:28:07] So, yeah, we're into telekinesis.
John Dehlin [02:28:11] I love it.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:28:11] That denomination.
John Dehlin [02:28:14] Even if it's not true. Even if she decides it's not true, you're okay with her going through the process?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:28:20] Absolutely. Because I'm looking at what she's doing to move things with her mind. She's making sure her room is clean. She's making sure that she meditates with a child who has anxiety. That's what I've been asking her to do. Clean your room and just take a second to pause and think, I'm okay. I'm okay with that. And, you know, she's had trouble sleeping. I've bought her crystals before, and I've held them and given them, put it under her pillow and said, my energy's now gone into this crystal and she sleeps.
John Dehlin [02:29:03] So for me, it's like the red string. The thread.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:29:09] Yeah, the hiccups stopped. I mean, that's the thing. It's just. I don't come far from the superstitious type of thing. But I also am not one to just jump into things. I don't just jump in and say, oh, I believe this. I believe that the hardest part of my deconstruction was losing my grandmother, because it happened right When?
John Dehlin [02:29:34] That was a couple weeks ago, right?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:29:35] No. So that was my auntie, who was my grandmother's sister.
John Dehlin [02:29:38] Got it.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:29:39] But I lost my grandmother in June of last year, and it was very sudden. She was planning on coming to my mother's wedding, and literally two days, three days before she had a stroke. And that was it. So. So it was difficult because I didn't know. Didn't know anything anymore. All I know is this is a lie. This is a lie. This is a lie. This is a lie. And I just remember kind of trying to figure out some grounding. It was very hard. And I've cried so much. Not over just losing my grandmother, but losing that sense of, I know where she is. I know where she's gonna be. It was gone, and I hadn't had time to process that, and then she's gone. So I remember looking at YouTube videos and seeing things about the afterlife and how people say they were so happy. And at that moment, it's what I needed to hear. I don't know where she is. I don't know what happened, but I know she was. She's at peace. And then I clicked off of the afterlife things because I do not want to go down the Chad and Laurie Daybell thing, but that's what I'm saying. Like, I feel as though you can take things to help enrich yourself without jumping into another thing. And that's why I talk about dogma. I think we are conditioned sometimes to want to be told what is and what isn't, and we don't need to do that. It's okay to not know. It's okay.
Life After Mormonism and Closing Reflections
John Dehlin [02:31:25] And if those crystals actually don't have power or if that thread didn't really cause the hiccups to stop, what would you say?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:31:34] I would say, duh, Right? Like, yeah, no, thread did not help. Honestly, I don't think it matters. I don't think it matters as long as it's enriching your life and not
John Dehlin [02:31:50] built on lies and not harming people.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:31:52] Right. I mean, the thread thing is kind of, I guess maybe was built on wives, because. I don't know. Wives, tale. I don't know. But.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:01] But also placebo.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:32:04] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:04] But also placebo, which is science. Even if you take placebo away, if you have a child who's distressed and you stop for a minute and you look them in the eyes and you use touch to soothe them for a second and have a minute, you know, like, it's not all broken down into.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:32:29] It's so true. Whether it's Real or not. And that's the thing is, I'm going to tell you one of the. When he was saying, look them in the eye. One of the defining moments for me and the church was my son, because he is my boy's son. He's so loving. He's very. He feels. He's very empathetic. And he is in a stage. He's nine. He's in a stage, even though his father is a doctor, that if something is wrong, he comes to me and he will ask me, mommy, can you lay your hands on my head? Can you lay your hands on my tummy? Whatever's hurting. And the placebo effect is he now feels better. You know, I'll touch him and I'll rub, and he's like, oh, my gosh, my stomach ache went away. I don't want that to be taken away from my son, to think or believe that because I'm a woman, that I do not have the power to take his stomachache away. And I don't know if that makes sense, but I don't want an authority telling my son that I need a specific power to help him when right now. He has no idea. He knows about priesthood. He knows about all that, but he doesn't go to his dad. He comes to me because of my mother and mother's love. And I don't want him growing up in a world where that changes,
Margi Dehlin [02:34:13] where
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:34:13] he's told that Daddy's better because he has something Mommy doesn't have.
John Dehlin [02:34:21] How could a mother's love be less powerful than some white Mormon guy's priesthood power?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:34:26] It's not. It's not. It's not. I mean, that's it. Check. It's not. And that was a defining moment for me because I can protect my daughters. I can show my daughters like my mother showed me who you are as a woman and strength and. And standing up for what's right. But for my son, that is a different path. And I want to make sure that he recognizes me as equal to everybody else, but also that if I need something, God, Heavenly Father, whoever, has given my mother the power, the divinity to help me, it's within my mom. And so that was a big thing. It's placebo for him. Touching his stomach doesn't make his ache go away, but for me, it was very powerful. Because he's nine, he'll be getting the Aaronic priesthood soon, couple years. So I'm like, yeah, we gotta figure that out.
John Dehlin [02:35:41] Beautiful. All right, well, Summer rain. Sorry? Summer Rain. Barrett. Yes. Thank you. So much for coming on Mormon Stories. You said one of your goals is to kind of help support others in their transition. How do people follow you and the good work you're trying to do do? Just list all the podcasts or blogs or your Internet, your social media handles or whatever.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:36:13] Yeah. So I'm co hosting with Mormon book reviews Steven Piker. I do some things with him over there. Ladder Daily Digest. That's with Jean and Maven, the amazing Maven. So I've kind of just been here and there right now, if anybody wants to help or follow, we are getting a page put together, but we do have a nonprofit. My husband was able to bring those Haitian families up from Haiti a few months ago. The airport was about to shut down the one from the our orphanage, and it was horrendous. They. They got babies and stuff and gangs came and took over their home. So we brought them up here. We have the Imago Haiti project. And so if anybody would like to donate to that to help them. I've been a little ticked off about the lack of resources within Salt Lake for these refugee families, and I want to get into all that, but it's very frustrating just to know how much money is here in Salt Lake and we don't have housing and things like that. So they are. My father opened up his home to them, so they are staying. Two families are staying with him right now because he's amazing. And we're just trying to get them on their feet, get their work visas and things like that. So if they want to donate to that, they can donate to that. And if they put their email, it's PayPal. But if they put their email in the notes, I can send them a receipt because it's tax deductible.
John Dehlin [02:38:13] Okay. And if people want to reach out to you, how do they find you?
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:38:18] That's the thing. I'm very private on Facebook and stuff, but if they want to reach out to me, they can reach out to my email. And that's summerurges4utah.com s u m m u r s u m m u r Burgess b u r g e s s the number 4utah.com and yeah, reach out. Reach out. I'm, you know, if you have critiques, too, I'm your huckleberry. I'm all about it. Reach out. Just don't talk about my dad. No,
John Dehlin [02:38:53] don't tell lies about your dad.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:38:54] Right, right. Don't tell lies about my dad. But, yeah, yeah, I'm just, yeah, fiercely protective of everybody around me, so yeah. If they want to reach out and have questions or anything like that, I'm an open book. I'm here and I want to help.
John Dehlin [02:39:15] All right. Thank you, Sommer. Thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories and telling your story. It means the world and I know it's going to help a lot of people.
Margi Dehlin [02:39:23] So thank you. We appreciate you.
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:39:24] Thank you, thank you, thank you.
John Dehlin [02:39:26] And Margi, thanks for being my co pilot today. It's always great to have you.
Margi Dehlin [02:39:30] Absolutely.
Donor Appreciation and Closing
Summur-Rayn Berrett [02:39:31] Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:39:32] And thanks to everyone for joining us today on more stories. We exist because of donors that make all this possible. So thanks. If you donate to the. To the Open Stories Foundation. We appreciate it if you don't, but you value this programming. We're a 501c3 nonprofit. Your donations are tax deductible. And every month we have 10 to 20 recurring donors cancel their donations because they move on or they fall on financial hard times, they lose interest or whatever. And if we don't have new people step up to replace the donors that cancel, then we have to start cutting services. So if you are in a support to, if you're in a position to support what we do, if you want to pay it forward to others, if you've benefited from it, we would welcome you to go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor and we'll keep doing this for as long as we can. We're trying to keep going. Also, other ways you can help us. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel, subscribe to our Facebook, Instagram and TikTok channels and like these episodes and share them with as many people as possible. All of that helps the algorithms. And of course, we welcome your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com thanks to Julia and Maven Gerardo Brooklyn and our board, everyone who makes all this possible. Hope to meet your dad someday way.
Margi Dehlin [02:40:58] And your mom.
John Dehlin [02:40:59] And your mom. Oh, yeah, totally. And your siblings. All the people, all the people. All the Owens' and others. But be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Pt 2: Deconstructing Mormonism in a Mixed-Faith Marriage
Just when you thought Summur’s faith transition couldn’t get any more intense, buckle up for a mind-blowing ride in part 2. From uncovering disturbing details in the Gospel Topics Essays that left her questioning everything she knew, to grappling with the church’s dishonesty about its history and finances, to watching her oldest daughter develop scrupulosity, Summur holds nothing back. Her brutally honest account of deconstructing her lifelong beliefs is equal parts heartbreaking and empowering. You’ll be on the edge of your seat as she navigates the challenges of a mixed-faith marriage, learning how to have open and loving discussions despite diverging worldviews. Summur’s raw vulnerability and unrelenting search for truth and meaning will leave you reflecting on your own spiritual journey long after the interview ends.
Thumbnail Credits: Main image provided by Summur-Rayn; Background image of the Salt Lake Temple from Getty Images
One Response
I loved this interview. Summur-Rayn is awesome. I’m pretty much in the same boat as she is right now. My wife knows I have issues with how the church treats LGBTQ folks, but that’s about it. We’ve not talked about the abuse, the SEC or anything about the church’s past.