Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Gerardo Sumano · Guest: Stacey Harkey
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introduction to Stacey Harkey
John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is July 11, 2023, and today we are so excited to have in the house the Stacey Harkey. Hey, Stacey.
Stacey Harkey [00:00:15] Hey. How's it going?
John Dehlin [00:00:17] For those of you who have been Mormon in the past 10 years, you will recognize Stacey Harkey as one of the founding, original members of Studio C, which was kind of a BYU comedy TV show kind of thing that was super popular, what, five, ten years ago? Something like that.
Stacey Harkey [00:00:34] Yeah, we started in, like, 2011, and then it just kind of grew in popularity until we left and started our own company. So, like, over the course of 10 years. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:00:45] And Stacey, you can find Stacey at stacyacyharky on Instagram. That's ey and ey for both Stacey and Harkey. But Stacey's an actor, he's a writer, he's a personal trainer, he does DEI consulting and trained a lot of really cool stuff. But today it's all about his Mormon story. He was recently featured on the Black Menaces podcast. So I want to give a shout out to the Black Menaces. They do great work. They're also probably the main reason why Stacey's here today, because I met him while they were recording here in the studio.
Stacey Harkey [00:01:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:01:20] Anyway, Stacey Harkey, there are so many of my listeners and viewers that have been wanting you to come on for so long. Really? Yeah, of course.
Stacey Harkey [00:01:27] I hope they're not disappointed.
John Dehlin [00:01:28] No, there's no way. No way.
Stacey Harkey [00:01:30] He's boring.
John Dehlin [00:01:31] No way. So we're going to try and do this just so everyone knows. Stacey's got to get out of here in about three hours. So we're going to try and do a one parter three hours. Stacey's Mormon Journey. There's going to be a focus on authenticity. Obviously, there's an LGBTQ focus. For those of you who are interested in that.
Stacey Harkey [00:01:49] Spoilers.
John Dehlin [00:01:49] Did I just out you?
Stacey Harkey [00:01:50] No. Well, I mean, we come out every day.
John Dehlin [00:01:54] Right. But also just universal story of of the Mormon journey and of course, again, a core theme of authenticity. And I'm so delighted to have one of my partners in truth and righteousness along with Margi Gerardo Sumano here to be co host today. How's it going, Gerardo?
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:15] Hi, John.
John Dehlin [00:02:15] Good. What's new?
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:17] Well, I'm excited for this interview. We have some family members who are big fans of Stacey, so that will be interesting. We'll see if they listen to the podcast for the first time.
John Dehlin [00:02:26] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:02:26] I told Gerardo I was like. I was like, you better roast me. You better go in. Just, like, dig.
John Dehlin [00:02:32] Perfect. Well, it's always great to have you here, Rodo. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:02:34] Thank you.
Stacey's Background and Mormon Origins
John Dehlin [00:02:35] All right. Well, Stacey Harkey, I have to admit, I don't know almost anything about your morning story. Like, the first question would be like, are you. Is there such thing as pioneer stock ancestry in your life? Or are you a convert? Or are your parents a convert?
Stacey Harkey [00:02:51] Oh, I gotcha.
John Dehlin [00:02:52] Where does your Mormon story begin?
Stacey Harkey [00:02:53] I was, like. I was expecting, like, a genealogy dive in. Didn't come prepared my many, many moons ago. Okay, so fun fact. I did, like, apply for scholarships through the Cherokee Nation, because growing up my whole life, it's like, oh, we're Native American and black, yada, yada, did ancestry.com. and they were like, bruh, you are not Native American. That is English. So maybe I do have some pioneer ancestry in there somewhere, so watch out, y'. All. But my family, my parents converted. My mom converted when she was 18. She grew up in a pretty abusive situation, and the church provided just was immediately a place of peace for her. And so she converted when she was 18, and she's still very active and very committed. And then where was she? She was in Oklahoma, I believe.
John Dehlin [00:03:42] Oh, in the South.
Stacey Harkey [00:03:44] Oklahoma.
John Dehlin [00:03:45] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:03:45] Nothing's in Oklahoma. But those two sister missionaries that found her, do you know around what age she was? I think she was 18. Okay. Yeah, she was 18. And she said. She talks about the sister missionaries coming in immediately, just, like, peace coming into this, like, tumultuous home. And her dad was the pastor of a church. And so it was like, religion was no new concept, but clearly what these sisters brought was something different, and it resonated with her.
John Dehlin [00:04:11] Yeah, I mean, I know it's her story, but, like, why would she need another religion when her dad. When she was raised in a church by a pastor dad?
Stacey Harkey [00:04:19] Well, she grew up in a very abusive home. And so it's not like. I think maybe whatever her dad was serving up wasn't exactly the most convincing of things, but she was always. Her whole family's very religious. She was always very religious, very.
Stacey Harkey [00:04:32] Just, like, very Christian her whole life. And so I think the transition from just like, a. I'm not sure what religion it was exactly, but that transition made a lot of sense for her, and the Book of Mormon made a lot of sense for her. And she just, like, immediately felt really, really good. Right. You know, it's like, she felt good, and it made sense to her. And so I was like, why Not, I think, you know, and I imagine there was some drama there, but with her family. But, you know, she's. She's strong willed. She did her thing and then she met my dad and they got married, and then my dad converted and so probably in Oklahoma.
John Dehlin [00:05:10] In Oklahoma.
Stacey Harkey [00:05:11] In Oklahoma. I believe it was in Oklahoma. And it was like, I didn't. We didn't talk about this growing up as a family, but I found his old Book of Mormon. He's like, no longer an active member of the church or anything, but he converted after blacks could hold the priesthood. I was like, oh, interesting also. That makes sense. So I was like, okay, cool.
John Dehlin [00:05:30] So after 78.
Stacey Harkey [00:05:32] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:05:32] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:05:33] I think it was probably in the 80s, early 80s, at some point.
John Dehlin [00:05:36] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:05:36] He converted. Yeah. And then you had all my. They got sealed in the temple and me and my three siblings came along. I'm the third of four of us. So then we came along and that's the beginning of little baby Stacey. They moved to Texas. I grew up in, like, the Dallas area pretty much.
John Dehlin [00:05:53] What year were you born?
Stacey Harkey [00:05:54] I was born 88.
John Dehlin [00:05:55] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:05:56] So don't do the math, y'. All. I'm still young, but yeah, so it was, you know, I was born in pretty. Just like great. Good, good parents. Okay. My mom. My parents divorced when I was 10. But they've always been like, really solid, good parents. And we grew up very committed. Even though my father isn't like lds, still, he always had a platform on being involved in the community. And so my family was very involved and in all aspects. And I was the kid that kind of like, did everything by the book. Right. I was the one that was like.
Stacey Harkey [00:06:29] Like, I got. Did the grades and I was. I never, like, snuck out or anything. I was like, if anything, my parents had to be like, stop reading your book and go to bed. Like, I was like, that kid and very, just like, very duty driven. Wanted to make sure I was, like, getting it all taken care of. Right. And so, I mean, I don't want to skip through childhood, but I feel like most of that was pretty, like, maybe.
Growing Up Between Baptist and LDS Worlds
John Dehlin [00:06:53] Let me ask this. Were you at a predominantly. I mean, most Mormon wards are white in the United States. Were you in a predominantly white Mormon ward?
Stacey Harkey [00:07:01] Very, very.
John Dehlin [00:07:02] And do you have any memories of what that was like as a black family?
Stacey Harkey [00:07:08] Like, I think a lot of my grappling with my identity and what it means to be black happened later, like, as I got into college. But family, family was black extended family. And then, like I said, my parents divorced when I was 10. And then my dad started going to a predominantly black Baptist church, and so actually got a scholarship to BYU from this black Baptist church. So it was like. Yeah, so, like, it was. I was very involved. I was very involved at the church. I was like. I played in the band in the church and was in, like, the youth choir and got Eagle Scout.
Stacey Harkey [00:07:39] Yeah. From that church, they had, like, split custody. So I'd be, like, one week here, one week there. I was just, like, very involved. Like, come summer camp time, when all the youth, young men in, like, the LDS Church would go to summer camp, I would go to summer camp twice. I'd go with LDS church. I'd go to the Baptist church. I loved it, though. It was cool.
John Dehlin [00:07:56] So it's kind of best of both worlds a little bit.
Stacey Harkey [00:07:58] Yeah. I feel like I got. It was really cool to, like. I remember at a young age, maybe like, 12 or 13, being like. Like, comparing. Being like, oh, these are things that I think the LDS faith does really well. And I was like, these are things that the Baptist faith does really well. And I really loved having the ability to be like. And I will take them both. You know what I mean? So that was something that I thought was a really cool privilege. Even when it came to, like, doctrine and how things were talked about. I remember being like, the LDS faith is really good at giving, like, steps, like, equations like this plus this equals this.
Stacey Harkey [00:08:29] And the Baptist faith was really good at being, like. Like, just like, what feels right in your heart. Just, like, honor your heart. Like, it was like church was like singing praise and having a good time where the LDS faith was like, grace and more of, like, the somberness of the moment. You know what I mean? That, like, the kind of, like, quiet respect. And it was just cool to have that comparison. Right? To be able to experience both of those worlds and kind of compare notes. I remember telling. Talking to a Baptist friend about, like, oh, you know, like, three degrees of glory. And he was like, what?
Stacey Harkey [00:09:02] And I was like, I know, but, like, where's Gandhi gonna go? He was all right. And then I learned more about Gandhi. And I was like, I'm not gonna try to figure out where people are gonna go in the next life. But, yeah, it was just cool to have that comparison growing up.
John Dehlin [00:09:14] Was there ever in your. Like, during certain years where you preferred one to the other, or did you always.
Stacey Harkey [00:09:19] I was always pretty. Like, I was all in when it came to the LDS faith. And so I was pretty all in. And I always felt like being a part of the Baptist faith was kind of like a playing church. Yeah. What'd you say? Playing church. Playing church. It just felt like extra.
John Dehlin [00:09:36] What's the guy's name?
Gerardo Sumano [00:09:37] Brad Wilcox.
Stacey Harkey [00:09:39] I was like, I don't know that reference. It felt real, but it just felt like the LDS faith is a higher demand religion. And so it was like, there's just so much more. More. Many more ways to be involved.
John Dehlin [00:09:51] More meat.
Stacey Harkey [00:09:51] Yeah. There's just, like, more depth in the doctrine, too. And by depth, I mean, like, extensiveness. So, like, you know, in the Baptist faith, no one cares about Kolob. It's like, what? No, no. It's like, we're keeping it simple. It's like, grace and faith. Be a good person, right?
John Dehlin [00:10:09] Jesus.
Stacey Harkey [00:10:10] Yeah, Jesus. And then in the LDS faith, it was like, there's like, a million things. And so I feel like that was. They, like, kind of went really well together, actually. And I just thought was like. I was like, oh, cool. I'm in this world, but I'm pretty, like, committed to the LDS faith.
John Dehlin [00:10:23] I'm dying to know if you're baptized into both.
Stacey Harkey [00:10:25] No, no.
John Dehlin [00:10:25] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:10:26] They were, like, in the Baptist faith, they're like, were you baptized? You'd be like, yeah. And they don't care where you were baptized. They were like, did you just, like, get under the water at certain points so you're good, you know?
John Dehlin [00:10:36] Did you ever. Did you ever, like, have that struggle of, like. Which is true? Like, I remember growing up in Katy, Texas.
Stacey Harkey [00:10:42] Oh.
John Dehlin [00:10:43] Where there was a huge Baptist contingency there, and they were challenging the validity of the Mormon. Of Mormon doctrine and theology.
Stacey Harkey [00:10:50] Interesting.
John Dehlin [00:10:51] And the God Makers movie and all that. And so, like, there's a point in high school where I'm like, whoa, is my church true? Are other Christian churches true? Did you ever have that kind of.
Stacey Harkey [00:11:00] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:11:00] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:11:01] Yeah. It was never, like. It never came to a moment where it was like. There was maybe one point in the years, like the decade of going to a Baptist church, where someone was like, just mentioned. They were like, we don't do weird stuff like the Mormons. And I remember being like. And like, all my friends knew I was LDS at the Baptist church. So everyone's like, huh? I was like, oh, yeah? What do we do? But it was literally just mentioned no one dove into doctrine. It was like. It was just like, hey, like, life is hard. We're all struggling. We just trying to be more supportive. We don't have time to be bashing people. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [00:11:33] One more question. I talked to Rachel in my recent episode of the Black Menaces, Rachel Weaver, she talked about code switching between her Mormon ward, which was predominantly white in South Chicago, and, like, her black friends at school. Were you code switching number one, between your Mormon ward and your Baptist congregation, and two, between your Mormon ward and. And, like, your friends or your school group?
Stacey Harkey [00:12:01] Oh, like, 100%. I feel like code switching is. It's, like, generally. And if people aren't familiar, it's like, the way you change, like, your vernacular and how you communicate according to, like, what. Which groups you're in. And it's used to generally, like, talk about, like, how black people coming from, like, being a minority. We code switch because we speak differently amongst our family and our friends than we would at work in a way to be perceived as professional by other people. But I think we just code switch in every aspect of what we do. Like, I think about, like, the way I talk about, like, talk around older people that are older than, like, 70 is very different than the way I talk around around people that are my age.
Stacey Harkey [00:12:37] And it's different than the way I talk around people who are, like, teens, you know, And I'm, like, coaching. So it's like, I just feel like code switching is just, like, such a common part of life. And the tricky part is, like, do you know the code of the community you're in? So to answer your question, yes. Tons of code switching, whether it was at the Baptist church or with, like, you know, majority black people around who speak a certain way and communicate a certain way.
Stacey Harkey [00:13:01] And now when I think about just being queer in queer spaces, I code switch, and in Mormon spaces, I code switch just all over the place, you know?
John Dehlin [00:13:09] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:13:09] Like.
John Dehlin [00:13:10] Yeah, it's kind of universal, but.
Stacey Harkey [00:13:11] Oh, I love it too.
John Dehlin [00:13:12] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:13:13] Love cracking a code.
John Dehlin [00:13:14] Yeah. Okay. So I guess. I guess part of me wonders. Rachel and Nate talked about Mormon culture sort of being white culture and then being interchangeable. So going back to that question about race and whiteness and Mormonism.
Gerardo Sumano [00:13:30] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:13:30] Did. Were you ever, like, feeling out of place in your white Mormon ward? Were you just so universally accepted that you felt comfortable there, or was there ever even a struggle with black identity versus the whiteness of Mormonism?
Stacey Harkey [00:13:44] My family, we're pretty like my siblings, for the most part, we're all really, like, pretty extroverted. Like, we go to spaces and, like, insert ourselves. And I, like, as I've gotten older, I've come to terms with what that means and how do you harness that? But I was just, like, I had friends, lots of friends. In the church, I never felt treated, like, poorly or differently. There were comments and things said when I was younger, but it was just, like, few and far between. Like, I remember once, like, the bishop's son was like, we got an argument, and he was, like, so messed up. He was like, you're just mad because you're cursed. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, it was the first time I'd actually ever heard anyone mention anything like that.
Gerardo Sumano [00:14:25] Oh, wow.
Stacey Harkey [00:14:25] Because, you know, like, when you're black and in church, they're not gonna be like, hey, let's talk about this thing. So I think people kind of danced around it or just didn't talk about it. I don't know. They didn't believe it. I don't know. But I kind of forgot my train of thought. The code switching.
John Dehlin [00:14:40] That's a. Oh, go ahead.
Stacey Harkey [00:14:41] Oh, and just. I do think that, like, what one thing that I love about growing up LDS was I feel like I kind of talk about it, like, assimilation. Like, I had the chance to learn how white people interact, how they. What is like, it's just a little different. So, for example, in the black community, it could be seen, especially traditionally, back in the day, if you're, like, staring someone in the eyes, it could be seen as a challenge or disrespectful. But in, like, the white community, that's how, like, you show respect. That's how you show trustworthiness. It's like, I'm looking you in the eyes.
Stacey Harkey [00:15:13] So those are aspects where I was like, oh, interesting. This is a different thing. And one's not bad and one's not good. They're just different. Well, where a majority of people are white, I think. I think it was really helpful to be like, now I know the language, I know the code of how to interact in different spaces.
Gerardo Sumano [00:15:31] Maybe we're beating a bit dead horse, but there seems to be this idea on Mormonism, though, that white culture and Mormonism is the right and correct culture and the superior one. You know, we have Apostle Quentin L. Cook a couple years ago talking in general conference about how the culture of the church is the correct culture and every other culture in the world is inferior to the LDS Church culture.
Stacey Harkey [00:15:58] Oh, yeah. I'm not super familiar with that, but
Gerardo Sumano [00:16:01] it seems like you never really thought about, like, that way.
Stacey Harkey [00:16:04] No. Well, I think there. And I think part of that is, like, the human nature aspect of, like, we assume the way we were taught is the right way, and everything else is like, oh, yeah, like, you do things a Little weird. You're a little different. And you think about food and you're like, I'm not gonna eat that, like, weird cow eye, because that's wrong. But like, in another culture, that is like a delicacy, whatever that. I think the point there is just that, especially in a place where you don't have a lot of diversity, you're just not introduced to a lot of things. So why would you think, like, this is wrong?
Stacey Harkey [00:16:36] You're just like, this is the way things are. And I remember thinking that too. I mean, even coming from, like, a black perspective, there are things that I'm like, white people do all kind of weird stuff sometimes. I don't know if they got it right. But I think part of that is because this is the way I was taught. And so that, like, hold on to that as, like, a pillar for me. But in actuality, I don't think it's wrong to be. You know, it's not wrong. It's just. It's just normal humanity. I do think that is pretty bold, calling anything inferior, you know, beyond your own.
Stacey Harkey [00:17:05] And I think a lot of people would probably challenge that, no matter where, what front they're on. And if they wouldn't, that's. That's a whole nother thing to unpack. Right?
Gerardo Sumano [00:17:11] Yeah, it's super weird.
Race, the Priesthood Ban, and Seminary
John Dehlin [00:17:13] So, Stacey, it might surprise you, you know, half our audience has never been Mormon. So just really quickly, what surprise you? Yeah, that is kind of wild. So for those who are kind of newer to Mormon culture, Mormonism has baked into its scripture and its doctrine and theology the curse of Cain, which Stacey just referred to, which is that when Cain killed Abel in the Bible, God, the mark that the Bible talks about, Mormon scripture interprets as dark skin. And then the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses, the Doctrine and Covenants, they all perpetuate the idea that black skin results as a curse from God cursing Cain for killing Abel.
John Dehlin [00:17:51] And then, of course, in the Book of Mormon, there's the whole dark skin associated with the curse of wickedness and to make the lame loathsome. And finally there's the priesthood ban, where people. Or black people of African descent, actually, some people of African descent were denied priesthood and temple blessings until 1978.
John Dehlin [00:18:14] How did, let's say, pre college, pre BYU, did any of that stuff, other than that, that silly comment, even in seminary, let's say, in high school, did any of those teachings come up? Were you made aware of them? Did you struggle with them? Or were you totally.
Stacey Harkey [00:18:29] I think it's unaware of Them interesting. When you say, like, it's baked into the theology. It's really tricky because theology changes. It just does. Right? It just changes. Think about the way we talk about women versus, like, 10, 20, 30 years ago. The way we talk about minorities. It just changes. And so I think by the time I was like, in my teen years, if people believed that sincerely, they didn't talk about it. And so it was. And then. And I remember do having. There was a point when, because of the comment from my bishop's son, I was like, let me dig into what is he talking about?
Stacey Harkey [00:19:04] And I remember asking, like, my mom. And she was like, some people believe it. I was like, how you not gonna tell me? But she. In her. In her experience, she was like, first off, that doesn't align with a God. I know. That doesn't make sense. And so I'm not gonna worry about it. I'm gonna stick to the things I know and the things I don't know. I'm not gonna worry about them. I'll let someone else worry about those. Not on my plate. And I kind of adopted that. But I did do. It was kind of before the time of Internet.
John Dehlin [00:19:29] Wow.
Stacey Harkey [00:19:29] And so I did do a lot. I was like. I remember being in the library at school looking things up, trying to understand more about this, until I came to the conclusion, too, where I was like. Cause there were things I found from people that were saying that's not the case, like leaders of the church, and then things that were saying that is the case. And so I was like, okay, there's a lot of confusion here. I'm gonna stick to what I know and what I feel good about and not worry about some of that other stuff. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [00:19:55] Sure.
Stacey Harkey [00:19:56] Which can, like, you know, which can last sometimes, can work in some situations for a time. But, yeah, when it came to that theology, that was never something that was, like, talked about over the pulpit. It was never preached. If it did come up in, like, a leadership role, like, I remember at byu, it came up. And not even in, like. Like, in one of the classes, I took a Book of Mormon class. It was always done with such, like. Everyone knew that was like a minefield. And so. Yeah. No, I've never. In a situation where someone was like, and the blacks were the curse of Cain, you gotta deal with it. Like, it was never that energy. Right. It was never, like, talked about or presented in that way.
Gerardo Sumano [00:20:33] That's interesting. It's very interesting how different. How at least you experienced this doctrine versus how maybe Latinos experience it, right?
Stacey Harkey [00:20:43] Oh, interesting.
Gerardo Sumano [00:20:44] Just a few. What about, like, a year ago, I called my mom once and I asked her, hey, mom, is it your understanding that the reason why we're brown, boy, Mexicans, we're brown. Is because Layman and Lamro were cursed with a dark skin? And she was like, yeah. Oh, so it's like in Mexico and Latin America, the curse of. Of the Lamanites is embraced as. Yeah, that's why we're brown.
John Dehlin [00:21:12] They're proud of it, our Latin America. I mean, I served in Guatemala. Yeah. They were proud to call themselves Lamanites.
Gerardo Sumano [00:21:17] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:21:18] You're just mad because you're descended of Nephi. That's why you're burning.
Gerardo Sumano [00:21:21] But we were not marginalized by the church, like, black people were.
John Dehlin [00:21:26] Right.
Stacey Harkey [00:21:27] There's, like a different. There's like, all sorts of things at play because the church is like an American church and has its own slew of problems. And then add theology on top of that and beliefs and, like, it just, like, it could get really befuddled. And so I know in my experience, too, like, my experience is very, you know, unique to me. And so, like, some other people, like, maybe Rachel or Nate, have had very different experiences with over the pulpit, how people might have talked about it.
John Dehlin [00:21:52] But no, I mean, this is so fascinating, Gerardo. Thanks for bringing that up. Like, I grew up in a seminary class, all white, you know, just a few, you know, a few hours drive from where you grew up.
Stacey Harkey [00:22:02] That's right. I didn't know. Katy, Texas.
John Dehlin [00:22:03] That's cool. Yeah. And my seminary teacher held nothing back to teach us. All the blacks were fed sitters in the pre existence, and that's why they were cursed. But he probably wouldn't have been as willing to say that if there were a black student in the room. So, like, like presence. I mean, this is probably a DEI point. Representation can be a presence, can be a really important part of fighting bigotry.
Stacey Harkey [00:22:30] Could you imagine that meeting where they're like, all right, this week in church, we're talking about the curse of Cain and having someone blackbeard waving to your family in the pews would have been like, how about we just focus on Jesus? What do you think? That's so interesting. And I do look back and I think, I wonder if maybe things were talked about with more care because I was there. I don't know, though, you know, how do you know?
John Dehlin [00:22:52] Maybe not.
Stacey Harkey [00:22:53] But I do feel like a majority. There's very few people I know nowadays, like, really know, and we've Talked about, like, that are LDs or were LDs that really believed that the curse of Cain was like. Sometimes they're like, oh, it was like a weird interpretation. Like, you know, everyone has a weird. Everyone's trying to resolve that cognitive dissonance of, like, racism wrong. But this feels racist. So how do you. How do we justify. And, like, everyone has different ways of resolving those concerns.
John Dehlin [00:23:21] And it sounds like with your family. And this is common in all races. It's just, like, a practical approach to the gospel. Is it working for me? Does it make it happy?
Stacey Harkey [00:23:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:23:29] Does it make us happy? Is it good for my family? Then the tough stuff. We're gonna not feed.
Stacey Harkey [00:23:35] Right? It's like, my family wasn't like, okay, let's talk about. And I keep bringing up Kolob. Cause there's, like, a song about it. And I know some people. Like, I feel like some people get bored with the gospel, and they're like, how can we make this more complex?
Stacey Harkey [00:23:46] So they're like, let's find that star that's closest to where God lives. And I'm like, like, we're struggling in life right now. Like, I don't know about what. Where y' all are from, but, like, my family's struggling. We don't care about the nearest star to, like, we. You know what I mean? But there's a lot of stuff, I think, that was, like, peripheral where we were. Like, it doesn't matter to us if this prophet was on a hill or a wall. Like, you know, there's, like, things like that. That I'm just like, totally. And some people do. That is important to them. But for me, I'm always. I've always been, like, a feelings guy.
John Dehlin [00:24:16] Love it.
Stacey Harkey [00:24:17] How do I feel?
Teen Years, Identity, and Sexuality in the Church
John Dehlin [00:24:18] So let's shift gears a tiny bit. Unless there's something else you want to cover as you're getting into your teen and adolescent years and you're starting to hit puberty and kind of your sexual development contrasting with the Mormon teachings about law of chastity and heterosexual relationships. Talk about just your. Unless there's something else you want to cover.
Stacey Harkey [00:24:40] Oh, no.
John Dehlin [00:24:40] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:24:41] I think that's great.
John Dehlin [00:24:41] So what was that like to come
Stacey Harkey [00:24:42] of age as a Mormon man? Puberty. Queer puberty. I don't think that's what it's called. It's just puberty. I honestly. It honestly wasn't a big deal growing up. I do remember having. I knew that something was wrong with me. I knew. I was like, okay, this isn't right. I know this isn't right. And I was like, because you get that feedback as kids. You pick up things whether people like it or not. And you're like, okay, so, like, boys who learn that boys don't cry, whether it's a sexuality thing or not. It's like, you're just like, okay, you get that feedback. Boys don't cry. We sweep that under the rug and we move on with my sexuality.
Stacey Harkey [00:25:17] I had feedback that, like, I just. All over, right? I'm in Texas, I'm growing up, lds, I'm part of a black family. Like, all the feedback was like, wrong, wrong, wrong. So that was really. Just swept it under, and it wasn't really a huge deal. Yes, I had a crush on my health teacher who was like a cheerleader in college and played hockey.
Stacey Harkey [00:25:38] I wonder if I saw him now. I'd be like, what was I thinking? And I did have crushes on other kids, but it was always pretty reined in, the sense of. I was always like, oh, you know, you feel this way about someone, but just treat them like a friend. And so in school, I think that's what contributed to me being so studious is I was like. I just threw myself into school and, like, was very involved in things. Just like overachiever. Which is pretty common with people who grow up queer in spaces that aren't welcoming to queer. You know, it's like queerness. It's like, we gotta.
Stacey Harkey [00:26:08] We gotta succeed somewhere because we're doing it in the sexuality category. But, yeah, puberty was cool. It was vibing. Like, at that point, I was like, okay, this is wrong. I'm probably bi and have a thorn in my side, like a weakness, this thing. But it really. That all came and really hit the fan when I got back from my mission is when I had to really start grappling with sexuality. Cause, like, to jump forward in the
John Dehlin [00:26:33] story, did you try and date in high school? And if so, how did that go?
Stacey Harkey [00:26:36] Like, there was one girl that liked me, and I was like, oh, you know, I like her too. And we, like, like, spent time together. And maybe she wanted to hold my hand, but that was, like, the extent. Like, nothing, Nothing.
John Dehlin [00:26:48] You just kind of packed it down.
Stacey Harkey [00:26:49] Oh, yeah. I was like, listen, I found that locked trunk and I put it in a safe and I buried it in my basement. And I lived my life, and I didn't have to think about it. It worked so well. So, you know, I go to. I graduate. I decide. So at one point, did you do
John Dehlin [00:27:04] seminary and did you kind of get fully. I don't want to say indoctrinated. Did you get the full Mormon doctrine theology?
Stacey Harkey [00:27:11] I did early morning seminary. I did. So my parents divorced at 10, and they were pretty chill about where we wanted to live. They were like, as long as you have a good reason, you can live with whoever you want. So I lived with my dad most of my life, who was Baptist but frequented the LDS faith. And while I was living with my dad, I wanted to start prepping for my mission. So I started going to early morning seminary. And he was like, I'm not going to take you. 6:00am no, that's not of the Lord.
Stacey Harkey [00:27:38] And so I had, like, there was a neighbor who was lds, and I would ride with their son or their kids. We would, like, carpool together, which was great. We were all good friends and stuff. But I always feel like I'm like, maybe I was never cut out for that because I don't remember too much as far as, like, learning good things. And I've never been good at, like, memorizing stuff. So I'm like, maybe I know a scripture or two still. But, yeah, I never felt like I was, like, replacing information with new information. Like, I was, like, out with the old. Just, like, you know, adding on to the things I'd learned growing up, I guess, you know, that's how I saw
John Dehlin [00:28:11] seminary and did your acting or theatrical sort of chops sort of develop in middle and high school?
Stacey Harkey [00:28:19] You know what? I didn't do any. So Texas, right? I go to this little high school called Little Elm, Texas, like, had when we first moved there, it was just like trailer parks and cows. And it stayed that way for a while.
Stacey Harkey [00:28:32] But at one point, I was like, in high school, senior year, I was like, I think. I think I can. I think I might want to be in theater or perform or act. And I go to the. Sorry, this is a crazy story. I don't know why I'm laughing. I go to the head of that theater department or whatever the professor was, and I was like, hey, I think I want to be in the play. And she looked me up and down, and she was like, I don't think we have black roles.
Stacey Harkey [00:28:58] Isn't that terrible? I'm like this little shy high school kid that, like, I was really shy growing up. Like, I would break into you just sweating if I had to chat with people, period. It was just, like, so stressful.
Stacey Harkey [00:29:09] And I just changed school senior year to live with my mom and prep for my mission. So I was like, in a new school, didn't know anyone. I was Like, I'm gonna do this thing. And she was like, no coloreds allowed. She put that sign up. And I was like, oh, okay. And I look back and the show was Little Shop of Whores, where it's like, I've told people that and they're like, that's the show.
Stacey Harkey [00:29:30] It wasn't even like an old Southern, like, you know, Gone with the Wind or something. But yeah, that was the show. So yeah, that was one of. That was an experience I had growing up. And I was like, all right, cool. I didn't say cool, but I was just like, oh, okay.
John Dehlin [00:29:45] So other than academics, did you have like strong hobbies or interests that kind of defined your identity?
Stacey Harkey [00:29:51] I played in the band and I really loved. I've always loved like creativity. Right.
John Dehlin [00:29:57] Was your interest again, your instrument again?
Stacey Harkey [00:29:59] I played the trombone.
John Dehlin [00:30:00] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:30:00] Watch out. But that's been a long time ago, so to say to claim band now feels disingenuous. But I was always very involved. I did band and then I was in scouts and I loved doing scouts. And I was always like, I love Baptist scouts.
John Dehlin [00:30:16] Baptist, not Mormon.
Stacey Harkey [00:30:17] It's different. It actually was a little different. I remember there are some kids that got spanked at camp once.
Gerardo Sumano [00:30:21] Oh, wow.
Stacey Harkey [00:30:22] And I remember being like, he needs to learn this. Discipline was different. We looked at it differently back then. But yeah, and I played soccer. Like, those are some of my hobbies growing up. I was always like, we were very active family. There was a time where we would like wake up and work out together as a family, which is wild, but it was really fun. We'd work out together and then jog down the corner to get donuts. And I think that's a beautiful balance. I like that.
High School, BYU, and First Years as a Mormon
John Dehlin [00:30:46] And just to kind of put a cap on your high school years, would you say overall you had a great or good Mormon experience?
Stacey Harkey [00:30:53] Oh, man.
John Dehlin [00:30:54] Was there ever any kind of unpleasant bishop kind of worthiness kind of interactions?
Stacey Harkey [00:31:00] Dude, My adolescence growing up LDS was kind of awesome. It was great. I had a chance to see leadership opportunities. I had a chance to have a built in community. My family struggled often, especially when living with my mom. And we just had community members that would just like lift us up. They're still some of my good friends to this day. Still doing dinner with some of the these families who've like moved up here to Utah. It was a great experience. And that's not the case for everyone in my family. Like some of my siblings didn't have as positive experiences and I've always felt like they were Very valid.
Stacey Harkey [00:31:34] And how they, like, navigated their experiences with the church. Because I'm, like, looking at it, I'm like, yeah, why would you go somewhere where you were, like, tortured and bullied as a kid? That makes no sense. Do your thing.
Stacey Harkey [00:31:45] And I also think growing up and the LDS space and Anabaptist space, like, my dad was always just like, be a good person. Like, be. Just be good and be involved. And so I think we had a little bit of freedom to explore what that meant for us.
Stacey Harkey [00:32:03] Like, I know my mom really wanted me to go on a mission, and she was. It was very important for her to her that, like, me and my brother held the priesthood and, like, did the thing. But, like, I feel like at the other end, I had this parent that was very encouraging of anything, like my dad. So I do a year at byu. I'm getting ready to go on my mission. My dad's taking me to the airport, and he's like, hey, I don't know if he's gonna be embarrassed if I say this. Two things, but one, one of them, he was like, you don't have to go.
Stacey Harkey [00:32:30] We're at the airport. And he's like, you don't have to go. And I was like, no, Dad, I really want to. He's like, all right, if you want to, that's great, but you do not have to go. And anytime you want to come home, you just let me know. And I thought that was really nice having that. Like. Like, I never was like, I'm going to lose my family if I this doesn't work out. And then he also handed me a box of condoms, and he was like, take these. And I was like, oh, no, dad. No. The mission's different. He's like, you just never know.
Stacey Harkey [00:32:52] I was like, all right, dad. Yeah, I'm not gonna take those. But I. Because the last thing I wanted was to open my suitcase and, like, my companion being like, bruh. I did have a cell phone I took from home on my mission the whole time, but I took it apart because I was like, I'm going to be a good missionary. I was in Brazil, too. So, like, I don't think the phone plan would have worked.
John Dehlin [00:33:14] Interesting. Okay, was BYU just really quickly, was BYU like oz? Was it a culture shock? Did you love it?
Stacey Harkey [00:33:22] It was a culture shock, but I loved it. It was like, I came to Utah, and all of a sudden I was like, think this isn't Texas anymore? I almost said Kansas, but I was like, we're not in Kansas anymore. Toto like, whoa. Very new experiences. I loved my freshman year of college.
John Dehlin [00:33:39] I made dorms.
Stacey Harkey [00:33:40] So, yes, in the dorms. Made so many friends. Some people. There was some weird stuff I encountered. Like, I remember in college, this kid from Idaho just being like. He, like, pulled me aside. We were, like, friends, right? He pulls me aside, and he's like, hey, I just want you to know you're only here because you're black.
Stacey Harkey [00:33:59] And I was like, affirmative action. Yeah. And he was talking, and he was almost doing it. Like, this is gonna be tough for you. I'm gonna give you a heads up, though. He ended up dropping out of school because it was too hard for him. And I remember that really, really, really bothered me. Like, I was like. And, like, college was already very different. And I'm this poor kid who barely, barely was able to get to college. I had a counselor that a bishop put me in contact with who helped me figure out different financial aid things. And I applied for financial aid. Like, it was my job because there was no way my family could have paid for college.
Stacey Harkey [00:34:33] So to have this kid pull me aside, I was like, oh, crap. And then one day, like, a couple days later, he asked me to proofread an essay form. And I remember reading it, and I was like, you got into byu? Like, I was like, nah, man, I'm good. Like, if you. I was like, I. Literally, it was so poorly written. I hope if he's watching this, I'm saying this in love.
Stacey Harkey [00:34:56] No, but it was so poorly written, and it gave me so much confidence to be at school again. I was like, you know what? I'm okay. This is the caliber. And that's literally all I needed to have my confidence come back. So there were a couple things like that, and people weren't used to being around a lot of diversity. And so there was weird things, but people that said them in, like, you know, like, in moments that we all have where we say something and we don't know it's wrong, and we're like, crap. Sorry. Like, a lot of those moments, you know?
John Dehlin [00:35:23] So, Stacey, if you ever get a chance to listen to Gerardo's interview, I think you might find it interesting. Gerardo, I'm thinking about your story, and I actually am seeing a lot of parallels between your story and Stacey's Bing Brown.
Stacey Harkey [00:35:37] Huh?
John Dehlin [00:35:37] But one. Well, no, no, I didn't mean that.
Stacey Harkey [00:35:43] I wasn't even, like, in a weird way, I was just, like, solidarity.
John Dehlin [00:35:45] But that's cool. Probably that, too. But, like, the one big difference is, like, Gerardo I think you were a lot more conflicted about your sexuality in high school, to the point where you wasn't your mom lining you up with David Matheson to do kind of conversion therapy over Skype, like while in high school. And I'm trying to account for like why you were tormented over that, but why Stacey was just kind of a non issue. And it could just be like personality type, right.
Stacey Harkey [00:36:11] I think too, I just locked it deeply, deeply away in that chest, in that safe under my basement. And what I didn't realize was that, that like you can't.
John Dehlin [00:36:23] Pressure built up.
Stacey Harkey [00:36:23] You can, yes. You cannot stifle that. But freshman year, you know, high school, we're Gucci. Freshman year of college, bam, we're good, right? Go on a mission. Everybody's in the same boat. No one's dating or anything. Some of these little straight boys really had a hard time with it. And I was like, okay, you know, but like, I'm gay and you know, I'm like, this has been my whole life.
Gerardo Sumano [00:36:44] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:36:45] But when I get back from the mission is when it. I was like, oh, shoot, the bomb went off. Right? But up to that moment, like, I loved my mission. It was great.
Gerardo Sumano [00:36:55] Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because when I came back from my mission, I was already like, I already knew I was gay. It hadn't gone away, the therapy hadn't worked. And there was definitely something wrong with the idea that it could be fixed.
Stacey Harkey [00:37:07] Right.
Gerardo Sumano [00:37:07] Because it didn't get fixed that difficult. My experience was way different and I'm not. It probably has to do also with the family and the type of the family I had. My parents were really like, both returned missionaries, like my dad on leadership of the church, like stake presidency and stuff. So very, very strict. And the high expectations, you know, from like. So for me, going to seminary was not like, oh, it's nice. I'm gonna have my neighbor drive me to seminary. For me it was like, go to seminary or die. You know, like, there's no other option.
Stacey Harkey [00:37:46] Y. I had the option to go to seminary and I chose to wake up butt crack a dawn to go. Yeah. And I didn't have this. Like, there was no. At least growing up, I don't ever really even remember thinking about church or not, but I never had the feeling that I was gonna lose support and love if that didn't work out. Cause I had siblings who were like, kinda like, did things their own way. And while it did, like, my mom was like, okay, well let's, you know, it was like super chill. My dad was cool about it. He was like, we always had that, like, love and belonging was always going to be there. So that's kind of wild.
John Dehlin [00:38:23] That's a tiny bit counterintuitive, because I would think that pressure and expectation would make you less likely to question or, you know, have a conflict. But in maybe being. Being forced against your will to do something causes more internal conflict, in your case, Gerardo, than for you, Stacey. That was doing it because you loved it and you found value in it and you didn't feel forced to do it. That's counterintuitive, but that's kind of wild. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:38:54] And a little bit of adversity, too, right? Like, because right now, like, just listening how you talk about the church and your experience, like, it's very different from how I would frame my experience in the church, even though there's a lot of similarity. I mean, there was plenty of positive things for me growing up in the church, but the way I would express about the church is way different. And I think part of it is the way that I was forced into it or felt like I would lose the love and support from my parents if I didn't, like, do it. So now there's a lot more aversion with the idea of church and what church does to people than the way you, for example, you talk about it.
Stacey Harkey [00:39:30] Yeah. It was never like this prison that I couldn't leave and I could only look out the window and could long. I think there were times when I even was commitment wise. I probably always did the same thing, but commitment wise, like, oscillate and stuff. So, like, I just. I can imagine it's like being in a prison where you're like, hand on the glass, the grass is outside, and be totally free. And my situation was like this open gazebo that I could just step out of if I wanted to and back in. And I was like, well, it's comfy.
Gerardo Sumano [00:39:59] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:39:59] I don't know. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [00:40:01] That's cool.
Stacey Harkey [00:40:01] Like, maybe. I think there probably is a lot to figure in it. I think probably how we are as people probably figures in a lot, too.
John Dehlin [00:40:08] Personality type?
Stacey Harkey [00:40:09] Yeah, personality.
John Dehlin [00:40:09] You're kind of yellow. Are you a bit of a yellow?
Stacey Harkey [00:40:11] I. I don't know what that means, but. Yeah. Is that more like fun and like. Yeah, yeah. I'm very like, go with the flow. It's all the fun. And that's one thing I love about fitness. I teach fitness classes and I personal train, and I love the struggle. I'm like, ooh if you're struggling, that's part of fun. So maybe even, like, from a religious perspective, I'm like, yeah, life is supposed to be hard, and that's how we grow. And, like, being gay, I might have a crush on boys, but I gotta fight it. And I'm gonna watch the fun. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:40:40] The challenge.
Stacey Harkey [00:40:41] I do love a good challenge. That one, though, didn't. Didn't pan out like I thought it would.
John Dehlin [00:40:47] Long term. Yeah, long term. Okay, so I have to ask you this about your mission. Please. In addition to anything else, you want
Mission to Brazil and the Priesthood Ban Revisited
Stacey Harkey [00:40:54] to talk about your mission?
Gerardo Sumano [00:40:55] Me?
Stacey Harkey [00:40:55] Anything. Love the mission.
John Dehlin [00:40:56] I'm guessing you know that, like, if you had to list one major contributing factor to the priesthood ban in 1978 being lifted, it would be Brazil.
Stacey Harkey [00:41:06] It'd be Brazil.
John Dehlin [00:41:07] Because Spencer B. Kimball loved the Lamanites, which are the Latin Americans. Right. And at some point. And Brazilians, they're. Why are you laughing? Why are you laughing?
Stacey Harkey [00:41:18] I just love that. Like, I could see it being like, dear Diary, love me some Lamanites.
John Dehlin [00:41:21] It's true.
Stacey Harkey [00:41:22] Like, oh, what a weird way to phrase it.
John Dehlin [00:41:24] But he loved the Lamanites. He felt like it was his personal mission to, like, help them blossom like a rose, which in his mind meant become more white.
Stacey Harkey [00:41:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:41:32] I don't mean to be shocking, but that it's written. But then he finds out that even though missionaries weren't supposed to be baptizing people with even a drop of African blood, it wasn't until the missions had been going in Brazil for decades and decades that he realized they'd been baptizing people in droves with African blood. Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:41:56] More numbers. Or get that drop of blood. Like, what a conundrum.
John Dehlin [00:42:01] But I don't think even he knew, because, I mean, genetics didn't really exist back then. And.
Stacey Harkey [00:42:06] And the way Brazilians look at race is different. What it means to be black in Brazil is different than what it means to be black in America.
John Dehlin [00:42:12] How so?
Stacey Harkey [00:42:13] I just remember. I remember being in Brazil, and I was, like, standing by this dude who has a similar nose like mine and similar hair like mine. And I was like. I literally was like, you know what it's like being black? And he was like, I'm not black. And I was like, play it. What you talking about? Like, you. You're black. And he was like, no, I'm not. He was like, look at my skin. And to his point, his skin was very, like. He was pretty light skinned. He was like, closer to your color, John. And it had a moment where I was like, oh, it's different here. I was going off of like features and like, maybe, you know, some of these elements. And he was literally just like skin tone.
Gerardo Sumano [00:42:50] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:42:51] Now my dad's pretty light skinned and my family have an uncle with like gray eyes, I guess blue, but they're pretty light skinned, which is why we thought we had Cherokee, Native American blood in us. And so. But that never. And even in America that if you got any black in you, it's like the one drop thing. You black, you're black, you're part of the gang. But if you look white and that comes into features too, then that's the way you are gonna be treated is gonna be a little different. Brazil was like, they just did it differently. And it had me thinking of race. I was like, oh, this is like not. This is different. It's just not the same everywhere. Yeah, it was interesting.
John Dehlin [00:43:25] So I guess I'm just wondering if the priesthood band stuff resurfaced while you were in Brazil.
Stacey Harkey [00:43:29] Oh, if anything, I do think Brazil helped a lot. Like, helped me feel so much more comfortable in the church space. Now this is not something I realized, but going to Utah is an incredibly, you know, Utah to Texas. Utah's very, very, very, very, very white, very predominantly lds. When I would leave Utah, I was like, I would like let out a breath. I didn't know I was holding this like, tension. I didn't realize I'd be like, oh, yeah, people look like me and everyone. The average height of men is like probably around 5, 6. I blended in, everyone was brown. I was like, this is nice.
Stacey Harkey [00:44:04] Like, I wasn't just like constantly sticking out. And that was really nice. And to get that from like an LDS perspective too, being like in the LDS Church, it was all like, that was really cool. But I did do think that was my awakening when I started being like freshman year at byu actually started having me thinking about race differently and the effect it had, you know, it's had on everyone and the negative effect. And in Brazil, I was noticing the standard of beauty was, was put more like, you know, it's like, oh, white people and white people. And I was starting to get like, oh man, there's some, there's some messed up stuff going on, you know, in the world.
John Dehlin [00:44:39] Yeah, yeah. So overall, just your experience as a missionary, baptizing, converting people, all that.
Stacey Harkey [00:44:45] Dude, it was great. The mission was just like literally us going around trying to help people, helping people. We did a ton of service projects and like I sold security systems before my mission. Cause I was like, this will be good prep. Gotta suffer growth, you know? And the mission was, like, doing that, but for something I believed in, which was really easy. And it was like, you meet people and they have hard lives and they're looking for hope. And I'm like, hey, here's something that could give you hope and could help provide some structure. And it seen them blossom. And I was like, it was great. Great. I loved it. It was cool.
John Dehlin [00:45:20] Did you ever have missionaries try and talk to you about, like, some of the problematic doctrine or theology or. Not really, no.
Stacey Harkey [00:45:26] That was the first time on the mission, though, where someone was like. They were like, the Bible's allegorical, and I was like, what? Like, in my home, we were like, noah's Ark was real. The world was flooded. The rainbow was a sign. You know, it was like, everything. Yeah, everything was very literal. And so to have it be presented in a not literal way blew my mind. And then when I would think, like, like, science, I'd be like, oh, there are some discrepancies. Like, that's a big boat and that's a lot of animals. And I was like, you know what? I could probably see that. But I didn't really care, though. Cause, like, whether Noah's Ark was real or not, like, didn't change how I felt about the things I was doing. Right. Like, it just didn't matter to me.
Gerardo Sumano [00:46:11] Wow.
John Dehlin [00:46:11] Nice. Oh, well, so far, you're living the Mormon dream.
Stacey Harkey [00:46:15] The Mormon dream. And then I come home from the mission, and the next part, living.
John Dehlin [00:46:19] Living with men constantly and never being was. It's kind of a bit of a stereotypical question, but it's like, was that ever hard to be living with the man for two years, you know?
Stacey Harkey [00:46:31] No.
John Dehlin [00:46:32] Did you ever have a crush on a missionary kind of thing?
Stacey Harkey [00:46:34] Nah, dude, he's packed it down. No, not. Not straight boys.
John Dehlin [00:46:37] No. Gross.
Stacey Harkey [00:46:38] No, I'm just kidding. But I do think. No, it wasn't tough at all because, like, gross.
John Dehlin [00:46:43] Straight boys, gross.
Stacey Harkey [00:46:44] How do you know what I'm talking about?
Gerardo Sumano [00:46:45] Well, you asked me the same thing on my interview several years ago, and it was hard for me to.
John Dehlin [00:46:50] What straight people would assume.
Gerardo Sumano [00:46:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:52] And I like to dispel stereotypes because I wouldn't expect you to.
Gerardo Sumano [00:46:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:57] But I like to ask that for the people.
Stacey Harkey [00:46:58] It's a fair question. What were you gonna say?
Gerardo Sumano [00:47:00] But I felt the same way as you did. I never had a crush on any of my companions.
Stacey Harkey [00:47:04] Yeah. And, I mean, I think if, like, I had a companion who had the right, like, vibe or something, I'd be like, oh. And I think there's a fine line between crush and adoration and respect. And I think some of those lines were, like, blurred mentally. Like, my neurons were not quite sure how to like. So I'd be like, oh, he's really cool. I want to be his friend. And now if I had that same feeling, I think I'd be like, when? How soon can we kiss? I don't know. But on the mission, it was like, I've always had more male friends anyways. Like, I was just, like, I always had more guy friends growing up and, like.
Stacey Harkey [00:47:35] And then sports and then, like. So it was never. The mission was never weird at all. But there was no pressure to date, which was cool. Cause I was like, don't have to think about that. And everyone else was in the same boat. Suckers.
Returning Home, BYU, and Navigating Being Closeted
John Dehlin [00:47:49] Okay. All right. So you end your mission at 21 and then go back to BYU?
Stacey Harkey [00:47:54] Yeah, I finished my mission. I go back to BYU. And right before I go back, mission president's like, yo, time to multiply and replenish. And I'm like, and I'm a duty driven. I do everything by the book. I was like, yes, sir. And so I get back to my mission. I'm like, we're gonna get married. Whew, child, that was tough. I dated one girl. She was on her mission still, and we were, like, riding each other. And then she came back, and we dated for, like, six months.
John Dehlin [00:48:23] Someone you met on your mission? Brazil.
Stacey Harkey [00:48:25] Well, we met before freshman year, and she went on a mission to, like, France. And then I went to Brazil, and it was like. Like. It was like, you know, your parents was like, the cute story of, like, return missionary couple, power couple. We got this. We vibed really well. She's a really good friend. But there was a point, and I think, too. Not to be too explicit or whatever, but, like, I was, like, 21 and a guy. I could have been aroused making out with a tree. No offense to her. So I think there were times when I was like, oh, like, making out is, like, super fun.
Stacey Harkey [00:48:53] And then people would be like, but don't go too far. And I was like, why would you. There's no need, you know, no desire. But there was a point we started. I started saving up for a ring, but I was like, oh, this whole thing rumbled in the basement that I had buried away. And I remember being like, God, like, I will not marry a woman if I am not, like, attracted to her. Like, some. She needs someone to be ravenous about her body. Right. I thought some, like, women deserve that. People deserve that in relationships.
Stacey Harkey [00:49:21] And so I was like, I don't know how I had that foresight, because my family didn't talk about attraction and sex much. But I just remember being like, no, this isn't like, I. I'm not quite. Like, I like kissing, but that's the extent. I don't want anything else. And so I remember breaking it off being like, yeah, just maybe we're just not panned out. Maybe we're not the right. You know? Does that sound familiar?
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:43] Yeah, with my husband. That's. That's how he did it. Oh.
Stacey Harkey [00:49:46] Oh, got you. With girls, I think with you, I was like, that's. Oh, man.
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:51] Yeah. Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:49:52] But, yeah, go ahead. And then it just happened. Like, I dated.
John Dehlin [00:49:55] Was that your sophomore year right after your mission?
Stacey Harkey [00:49:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:58] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [00:49:58] And I.
Gerardo Sumano [00:49:59] What about. Did you ever hear anything about the church's teachings on interracial marriage?
John Dehlin [00:50:06] Girl,
Stacey Harkey [00:50:09] there was. That's, like, part of that stuff that I think would lump into, like, old church doctrine and stuff where you're just like. Like, I remember being at a young. At a young age thinking, like, sometimes people get it wrong, and if the church has people involved, sometimes people get it wrong. And so there was this already this, like, category I had where I was like, they got it wrong. Oh, so I remember you had heard
Gerardo Sumano [00:50:31] that the church had this curse.
Stacey Harkey [00:50:33] Well, I remember hearing that at one point, and I think. I don't know anyone who was. There was, like, one girl I asked out once who was like, I don't date black guys who's lds, but I was like, one. I've met anyone who was like, yeah, white people should date only white people, right? Like, no one.
Gerardo Sumano [00:50:47] Well, I'll tell you, my. My husband's grandma, before I met him.
Stacey Harkey [00:50:50] Oh, see, she.
Gerardo Sumano [00:50:51] She. But not too long before I met him, he told them, like, all. All the grandkids, like, oh, I'm doing the family history. And there's. And we're pure. Our blood is pure. Meaning that there's no black blood in their ancestry.
Stacey Harkey [00:51:10] But I feel like. So, like, if you heard that from a se. From a grandparent, wouldn't everyone just, like, side eye each other and be like, all right, memo's off. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [00:51:18] I think most of the grandkids were like, like, grandma, you don't say that. Like, that kind of stuff. But, like, there's still Mormons alive today who believe interracial marriage shouldn't be done.
John Dehlin [00:51:28] That's so wild in Utah. Majority.
Stacey Harkey [00:51:30] Yeah. And I feel like if and correct me if I'm wrong. And I don't know I'm black. I don't. I've never been white in a white family. I don't know what those conversations are like, But I'd like to think, yeah, if at least. I mean, that's another thing too, is like, if someone doesn't want to date me because I am black, they saved me time.
Stacey Harkey [00:51:51] They saved me time because why in all of the. Why would I want to date them? Like, listen, we are just different roads. You go down your little racist road, I'm a belay over here. But I'm like, I just feel like stuff like that. If I met someone who was like, well, it's tough because grandma doesn't. I'd be like, hey, listen, we already know what we need to about each other. If you can't stand up for something you feel is right, then, like, you are. You are. You're in that basket. I'm over here. Wish you the best.
John Dehlin [00:52:17] I'm just gonna. I'm gonna just note something right now that I think is a theme that I'm noticing that I think is going to be persistent through your story. Maybe not. There is an intellectual and an emotional and a psychological resilience that you have that I didn't have and that I. I don't want to demean you or anyone else. Gerardo.
Stacey Harkey [00:52:37] Yeah, Gerardo definitely didn't have. I'm just kidding.
John Dehlin [00:52:40] It's not like an unawareness of problems. It's just like, I'm going to focus on the good. I'm not going to get caught up on the hard or the confusing or the inconsistent. And I'm just going to make the most of what's in front of me because it's working for me.
Stacey Harkey [00:52:58] I do think that is, like, a style I have. But I also really, really, really love. Like, it's the challenge aspect. Like, I do not run from tough questions. I wanna sit with them. I wanna be like, look them in the face. Like, if I have concerns with people, I'm like, let's talk. Why? Let me tell you why I hate you. Like, not like that, but it's just like, I wanna. Like, whenever there's disagreements, my go to is like, let's sit. Let's face it, let's sit in it. So that is, like, interesting. It's like this dichotomy of being like, I don't get this. Whatever. I'm not worrying about it.
Stacey Harkey [00:53:30] And then this also being down to dive into it. It. So when things would come up and I. And I wasn't like, they didn't just like, blow off my back. Then I would, like, sit with them, which is a theme that comes up later. But yeah, okay.
John Dehlin [00:53:44] So that first dating experience didn't work out.
Stacey Harkey [00:53:46] Didn't work out. It was good. She's cool.
John Dehlin [00:53:49] Did up until that point. So, like, your first potential engagement post mission had you come out quotes to anyone as bisexual or as having what the church would have called same sex attraction or is gay, any of that.
Coming Out to Bishops and Seeking Guidance
Stacey Harkey [00:54:03] I think I spoke to a bishop about it once in high school. I was very, very like. And this is something I got from my mom where it's like. And I think this is how she was able to think through some of the things in, like, the LDS faith that were maybe like, some of the things with race where she's like, my relationship is between me and God. Everything else is here to facilitate that. So I would like, anytime I slipped up as a kid, if I, like, masturbated, if I was like, in the bishop's office and I was like, I'm doing the hard thing.
Stacey Harkey [00:54:32] I'm star shame in the face. I am calling it what it is. And I think those poor bishops probably got tired of me. I was a teen, I was there a lot. But that carried through, whether it was on my mission or future as a young adult. I was always in there like, hey, I am not going to let the fear keep me from doing this thing I feel is important.
Gerardo Sumano [00:54:53] But did you ever come out to them?
Stacey Harkey [00:54:56] In a couple cases. My first bishop, the first time I went to go talk to the bishop, I was like, I think. I think I might have said I struggle with same gender attraction. And he was like, oh, he didn't super love. Like, his sons were some of my good friends, right? Like, super cool guy. He was like a lawyer. I wonder what he's up to these days. But he was just like, hey. I remember him just essentially being like. And I think this has a lot to do with my experience in the church too. He was like, hey, you're doing good. You're doing all right. You're doing good. You just keep trying your best.
Gerardo Sumano [00:55:29] That's cool.
Stacey Harkey [00:55:29] So he didn't shame me. He didn't like, whoa. I think I was probably shaming myself. But I was also never. I just never wanted to run from those tough things. So I was like, if fear ever felt like it got in the way of me doing something I felt was right, I'd be like, oh, f you, I'm doing it. I'm having a meeting. I'm gonna have my mom drive me to the church, so. And I think I talked to other bishops later, but I'm trying to think of the last.
Stacey Harkey [00:55:57] I think after that, I was like, no, I didn't really come out to bishops much unless I felt like it was relevant. Unless I was like, I'm struggling. And so when I did come to a point, yeah, struggling with same gender attraction.
Stacey Harkey [00:56:09] So I did come to a point when I started, like, settling with that. And I've dated a couple more girls. One girl I dated for, like, eight months. She was amazing. I literally. When I dated her, when in, like, 2000, it must have been 9 or 10.
Stacey Harkey [00:56:24] And then I literally talked to her the other day, and I was like, hey, I hope that never made you feel bad. Like, it really was just me. But once again, I started, like, we dated, it was great. We got along really well. And then when it came to, like, taking it to the next level, like, engagement or something, I was like, we're missing some key pieces.
Stacey Harkey [00:56:45] And that, like, thing that I had buried and locked away in my basement starting to, like. Like, the ground floor starting to shake. And I'm like, maybe I need to look at this thing. And so after her, I dated. So I dated two girls pretty seriously. Then I dated one girl for, like, two months, and she went on a mission, and I was so relieved. And I was like, that's not a good sign.
Stacey Harkey [00:57:05] She always wanted to make out. And at that point, I was like, oh, this is. This is not that fun. Oh, man. And I think at that point, did
John Dehlin [00:57:13] you pray to Heavenly father to take that away?
Stacey Harkey [00:57:15] Every single day. Every single day. This is embarrassing. I prayed for two things, especially through high school. I prayed that God would. I prayed that God would make me straight, would take away that struggle, and I prayed that he would make me an X Men. I would be like, give me powers.
John Dehlin [00:57:33] Which one?
Stacey Harkey [00:57:34] Both of them. I'd be like, if you got to give me one, give me the powers. I'll be.
John Dehlin [00:57:37] Which X Men?
Stacey Harkey [00:57:38] Oh, I don't know. I was just like, give me some. I just thought powers were cool. Then after high school, I think I phased out of that, and I was just like, make me straight. Please make me straight. Every day on the mission, I do remember thinking, like, I'm gonna do my best, and I'm gonna show God that I'm willing to do everything, and he's gonna make me straight. Came home from the mission, I was like, shooting little tingling. When a high boy walks by still there. Doggone it. And then I was like, I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna date women, and I'm gonna go to the point that I can do all that I can.
Stacey Harkey [00:58:07] And then God's gotta, like, wave his magic wand and take away my attraction to men. He's gotta, like. I don't know how he does it. He's gotta do it. And then I, like, did it. And I went so far with these women as far as, like, relationships could go. And then I was like, it feels beyond this manipulative. I had a bishop tell me. He was like, you just gotta.
Stacey Harkey [00:58:24] You just gotta marry a woman, and once you try the forbidden fruit, you'll be straight. And I was like, dude, I don't know. At this point, I think the church had come up with, like, a Mormons and gays website.
Gerardo Sumano [00:58:35] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [00:58:35] And I just.
Gerardo Sumano [00:58:36] Where were you getting this idea that it would. Who told you that?
Stacey Harkey [00:58:40] I think I heard some horror stories. I'm trying to think of what I don't know. I'm trying to think of where I knew that I was like, I have to. Things have to happen. Because I remember thinking. I was like, if. If I go through with this and it doesn't change, I have ruined her life. I have. This is not about me. And if I try to just treat it like it's about me, it's incredibly selfish. Like, this is someone else. So if we get married and I make that commitment to someone lifelong, and then I'm not even attracted to them.
Gerardo Sumano [00:59:08] But, I mean, where were you getting the idea that God was going to take it away? That you could just pray it away?
Stacey Harkey [00:59:14] God could do anything. You know what I mean? Like, if he could make Lamanites go white. You know what I mean? Like, if God could split the ocean and build a boat big enough for all these animals. If God can literally do anything, then why is this out of his scope? Why? You know what I mean? God can do anything. And I'd heard stories, too. You hear stories about people being like.
Stacey Harkey [00:59:37] Especially back then, no one talked about. No one said gay. Right. But then I started hearing stuff where it's like, he's making it work. And my attraction to women is like. Like, it's working. But I was like, okay, good for you. But, like, let. Like, I need to fill this for me. I'm not just gonna, like, marry a woman and be like, whoops, yeah, like, what's going on? Like, it's. Am I healed?
Stacey Harkey [00:59:59] And so I did. At this point, and at this Point, too. I'm, like, kind of coming to terms with this, like. Like, who I am and, like, my value as an individual. And so I think I was like, you know what? After that girl I dated for two months, I was like, we're gonna take a break.
Stacey Harkey [01:00:13] I'm just gonna, like. I think at this point, I told God. I was like, all right, if that's not. If you're not gonna zoot the gay away or something, then I think I'm just gonna be single. I'm gonna be single. I'm gonna be committed to whatever. I was teaching Stake seminary. I was teaching with other young adults. I was involved in the Elders Quorum presidency. I had always. I'm like, an involved person, so I like being involved.
Stacey Harkey [01:00:39] And so I committed to that single life. And it was the unhappiest I'd ever been. Immediately, I was like. And I think at this point, that little basement thing that I had in the chest in the safe, locked away in the basement started, like, cracking a bit, and then, like, ruptured. And I was like, oh, shoot, I can't ignore this anymore. And then it just, like, exploded. It just tore the foundation of what I knew to be like, oh, like, happiness and the future and what life meant for me. It just, like, erupted.
John Dehlin [01:01:09] How so?
Stacey Harkey [01:01:11] Like, it was like the final straw of me trying to date that girl. And then, like, it's not happening. And I was like, shoot, the gay's not going away. And I think I remember admitting to myself. I was, like, looking in the mirror, and I was like. It was like Jim Carrey and Liar, Liar. When he's trying to say the pin is red or something or blue, but he can't lie. And he's like. It's like it was me trying to just say I'm gay. I was looking in the mirror, and I was like, I am.
Stacey Harkey [01:01:39] But what that meant for me was my expectations about what life was supposed to be like just came crumbling down. I did everything by the book. I was like, now I was gonna multiply and replenish, but I couldn't check that box. I couldn't get married and get married in the temple, and I couldn't, like, make babies in a fun way, I guess. I don't know. But it just. It challenged what life. Life was supposed to look like for me.
John Dehlin [01:02:04] We also talked about deciding to just not date.
Stacey Harkey [01:02:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:02:07] And that. And becoming the saddest you ever were in your life.
Stacey Harkey [01:02:10] I was like, maybe that's my lot,
John Dehlin [01:02:12] because that means shutting yourself off to intimacy.
Stacey Harkey [01:02:14] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:02:15] Not just sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, all that, right?
Stacey Harkey [01:02:18] Everything. And there was always this thing too, where like my whole life, like, I'm a fun person, we like fun. I have fun and stuff. And BYU really helped me come out of my shell with connecting with people. I transitioned from that shy Stacey to finally being less afraid to put myself out there and people liking who I was. And I was like, whoa.
Stacey Harkey [01:02:38] But there was always something keeping me from connecting deeper with people. And obviously looking back in retrospect, it's because this huge aspect of who I am was being completely locked away and shoved away. This thing that I had always identified as this disgusting monster at the time felt small and locked away and now it just bust out of its cage and it was, was big and it was scary. And at this point I started talking to bishops and leadership. I was like, hey, listen, this thing isn't going away. I feel like, I don't know, like, I'm made this way. This thing isn't going away. What do I do? And they're like, marry a woman. And I'm like, wrong, wrong story.
Gerardo Sumano [01:03:17] What year was this?
Stacey Harkey [01:03:18] This was in. This had to be. So around this time, a little before, after that last girl I dated, I was in the sketch comedy group, comedy group called Divine Comedy. And it had just transitioned into this thing called Studio C. So probably 2012. So Studio C was just starting to pick up, right?
Stacey Harkey [01:03:39] I am just like all of a sudden Mormon parents are pulling me aside and they're like, we love what you're doing. We want our kids to be like you. I want my son to be like you. I want my daughter to be like, like to marry a guy like you. And I'd be like, well, funny story.
Stacey Harkey [01:03:55] But they were just like, we love what you're doing. And we did a whole like youth, faith to face thing with the church where we spoke to like all the church of the world about like, because kids were like, oh, you're not in your 70s. And you're like, the church like supports what you're doing. Like, this is unique place to have
Gerardo Sumano [01:04:11] people and just, just to give a little bit of context to the listeners about what was going on during 2011, 2012 with what the church. I mean, at this point, the church is changing rapidly and like fast paced about their, and their teachings about homosexuals and what they think and how they're going to handle them. You know, 2011, 2012 is when evergreen, this big organization that was, you know, popular among same sex, attracted Mormons for several years, is kind of giving Its last breath of hope and trying to, you know, they're almost about to close because the church has completely withdraw their support.
John Dehlin [01:04:53] And Evergreen supported overtly conversion therapy through both psychotherapy and like, you know, weekend retreat support groups.
Stacey Harkey [01:05:02] Wow.
John Dehlin [01:05:03] That was Evergreen. And it was a huge deal. Yeah. Keep going.
Gerardo Sumano [01:05:07] Yeah. So the church takes away the support, the financial and. And just, I mean, they used to give them buildings for their meetings and that kind of stuff. So Evergreen kind of disappears around 2012. And then Northstar surfaces with Ty Mansfield. With Ty Mansfield and Who works at BYU as a. As a teacher in the psychology department.
Stacey Harkey [01:05:30] I think he's a queer professor at byu. He's a marriage.
John Dehlin [01:05:34] Mixed orientation.
Stacey Harkey [01:05:34] Marriage. Mixed orientation.
John Dehlin [01:05:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stacey Harkey [01:05:37] I couldn't even. When I hear that, my only hope is like. And I'm not here to be like, do this, do that. I'm just like, I hope you're both happy. I hope and pray. I mean, I really don't. I'm not praying about it. I'm gonna be honest. But like, I don't know them, but I just hope when I hear that, I'm like, my heart goes out. I hope you're happy.
John Dehlin [01:05:56] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [01:05:56] And that's between you and whatever.
John Dehlin [01:05:58] Totally.
Gerardo Sumano [01:05:58] But this is kind of when they're racing to like, now we're going from conversion therapy to this mixed orientation marriage, but then also getting away from that. It was just this weird, weird years. Right?
Church Messaging on Sexuality and Personal Struggle
John Dehlin [01:06:10] Yeah. They. They start shifting their message away from being gays of choice, away from the solution is to be celibate or enter from explicitly advocating celibacy and mixed orientation marriage as the solution. They would still find it. They still to this day are finding indirect ways to promote those options.
Stacey Harkey [01:06:31] Interesting.
John Dehlin [01:06:32] But they realized, I think because of research that was coming out out, that there was a huge legal liability for supporting conversion therapy overtly. And so many mixed orientation marriages were blowing up. Like Josh and Lollyweed, for example, where
Stacey Harkey [01:06:50] I remember reading some of his things that were like, we can make it work. And I was like, okay, maybe I'll try.
John Dehlin [01:06:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's. And then the Mormon gay and Mormon, or Mormon and gay website came out soon after.
Stacey Harkey [01:07:03] Right, right, right.
Gerardo Sumano [01:07:05] So it's surprising. Well, surprising and not that bishops are still really strongly recommending you to marry a woman when by then we already had the quote by Gordon B. Hinckley saying, you know, that's not the solution. Marriage is not the solution to same sex attraction.
Stacey Harkey [01:07:21] But let's be honest, like church doctrine, teachings, beliefs don't always flow like that it's not like one person says one thing, and all of a sudden everyone's like, on the same page. It's like Meemaw Jenkins, who's like, don't marry a Negro or like, whatever. You know, it's like, still believe those things even though they've been condemned for decades. For decades. So I had bishops that were like. Like, one of the last bishops I came out to was like, hey, like, there are ways to change that, you know? And I was like, that's. You know. And I never. Honestly. And like, at this point, I have no idea what's happening in the queer LDS space at all. I am, like, just trying to figure out why my whole foundation exploded and how I'm going to grapple with just, like, life. So I don't even know what's happening. That's where I'm plugged in.
John Dehlin [01:08:05] You weren't plugged in all that?
Stacey Harkey [01:08:06] Not at all. All I. No one really. No one knew I was queer. No one knew I was gay. I barely knew I was gay. Maybe some select religious leaders, but no one really knew. And I didn't know anyone. So.
Gerardo Sumano [01:08:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:08:20] So as you're in the lowest, most sad part of your life being elevated as a role model, but knowing inside the Mormon plan had no place for you, how did you navigate?
Stacey Harkey [01:08:31] It was more so, like, let me think about what that meant for me was. Yeah, it was like, oh, yeah, this doesn't. This, like, I literally. There's no. I remember telling. Because I met with a bishop, and then I met with stake presidents, because I've always been really open about my experiences, and I've never wanted to be like, hide. And I'm like, uh, if it's scary, I'm gonna face it. So I'd meet with stake presidents, and I'm like, yo, what's going on? Like, what do I do in this situation? Like, I'm really trying to. I'm trying my best to grapple. I'm trying my best to make sense of this, but this clearly doesn't consider me at all.
Stacey Harkey [01:09:05] And they would just. And, like, the best meetings I had with people were the ones where they were like, dude, I don't know, man. I don't know. I'm gonna be honest. And the worst were the ones where it was like, you gotta. Gotta marry a woman. You gotta try a girl out. And I'd be like, I'm say no on that one. Like, thankfully, I had that established basket of things that I was like. And nope.
John Dehlin [01:09:29] Yeah. Meaning sex with a woman. Would fix you.
Stacey Harkey [01:09:32] And that's what I assumed they meant. And by all the eye winking and nudging, I was like, okay, nah. But once again, I do want to say that this is like a really, really. This is. This man I'm talking to that recommended that. Not a bad guy, not a manipulative individual. This is someone trying the best with what they have. And that's my motto is like, the world is full of good people trying the best with what they have. Sometimes they don't have a lot. They don't have the resources. And I remember at that point being like, he knows less about this than I do, so I should probably take this into my own hands. And it came to a point where many bishops.
Gerardo Sumano [01:10:07] Isn't that a little frustrating that you don't know where to go, like, to find the answers on how to. What to do?
Stacey Harkey [01:10:11] Yeah, well, if anything, it was less of, like, for me, I guess at this point, I'm starting to really come to terms with the fact that this isn't going anywhere. And I start thinking at this point where I'm like, if this isn't going anywhere, what does that mean about what I've defined this? If this little monster that I've deemed a monster is actually just a part of me, what does that mean about, like, maybe I've been thinking about this the wrong way. And I start.
Stacey Harkey [01:10:42] So I have this concept, right, where I feel like, like, authenticity comes into two parts. Part one is getting to know yourself. So, like, before you can be who you are, you got to find out who that person is. And so you got to learn, like, who you are. And maybe in some cases, if you grew up in a place where other people have dictated a lot of your decisions, that's like starting at ground zero. Like, what do you like to even eat? What kind of content do you like to watch?
Stacey Harkey [01:11:08] And then the other aspect is being transparent. So, like, living externally in a way that reflects your inside. And I feel like when those are off, you experience a lot of cognitive dissonance, a lot of discomfort. And I was experiencing a lot of discomfort. And so I think I was like, okay, I need to find out who I am. And then I need to live in a way that reflects that so I can be congruent with myself. Okay? So I can be authentic with me. Because I feel like authenticity just. It rings as true to me as a true principle. There's no convincing. I need that it's good or bad.
Stacey Harkey [01:11:41] I know where that fits. And so I remember in church lessons I'd be like, teaching lessons in elders quorum and being like, hey, some of us are not going to get married. And people were like, what? And I'd be like, it's the truth. Like, just look at it. Like, let's be real about it. Or. I remember talking in church about masturbating once. I was like, hey, we struggle. And people were like. And I was like, this is a part of authenticity for me. This is me being real to who I am and what I. And not this. Like. Like, my biggest struggle is eating too many brownies.
Stacey Harkey [01:12:07] I was like, man, that's not. I hate when people talk about that stuff. I'm like, that's not a real struggle. That's not. I mean, we are Live different lives if that's what you're fighting. I do. There was a general conference talk a while ago where, oh, she was so sweet, too, but she talked about how she ate too many cinnamon rolls and felt so bad at distance from the Lord. And I remember being like, that is a good Friday night for me. Like, I was like, it's like, sin. That's a good time. I was like, we are not the same.
Stacey Harkey [01:12:35] But I get it. Part of it is, like, you don't want. Letting people see those parts of yourself is scary, especially when it means you can lose respect or community. But I was at the point where I was, like, fighting for respect and community wasn't helping me be happy. So I needed to get on the same page, which is why I was having all these conversations, trying to learn. So it was less about where do I go and more about, like, I need to get the information right for me. So I was gathering data, so why
Gerardo Sumano [01:13:01] not come out and tell people about your struggles? And at that.
Stacey Harkey [01:13:06] Because I didn't even know. Write a book. I didn't even know every. Well, at that point, I didn't even know what that was still. So I was like, it's like a doctor being like, this patient has something I don't understand. And, like, writing a book about it. It's like, you don't. You don't even know it yet.
Stacey Harkey [01:13:22] But I did get to a point where I one night was at, like, a lowest of a low, and I was so. I felt like I couldn't go on anymore like this. I felt like I was going to implode. I was like, I.
Stacey Harkey [01:13:37] Something needs to change. And that's another strong belief I have. And this might be a fitness thing where it's like, pain is your body, is your. With your body, your Soul telling you something needs to change. You touch a hot stove, it's hot. That's your body being like, get your hand off the stove. And I was experiencing pain, and I was like, okay, okay. This isn't like, the pain that just goes away. I'm still feeling it after years. My foundations are messed. This monster's raging, and I'm falling apart.
Stacey Harkey [01:14:04] I'm like. I feel like at this point, if you go back to that little analogy of the buried monster who explodes out, I'm, like, hiding in the bathroom, holding a broom, wearing a bowl on my hat, and it's, like, fighting to get in the bathroom. And I'm like, it's the last stretch. I don't know what to do. It's all about to fall apart right now. I'm gonna die.
Stacey Harkey [01:14:22] And I do what I've always done to find comfort. And I get on my hands. My hands and knees. I get on my knees and I pray. And I'm just like, God, I need something now. Like, this is no longer a negotiation. This isn't me asking. Like, I have done my utmost, utmost to give myself to you in every way. I need something right now. And I remember specifically being like, do I. Do I leave the church and live a gay life? Okay. Or do I stay in church and just forsake that part of myself? And I'm unhappy, but that's what you want. I need to know.
Stacey Harkey [01:14:58] And honestly, y', all, I felt I had, like, a really good experience with it. I felt just, like, peaceful. I felt so peaceful. And I, for the first time in my life, felt like that little monster that was raging in the house wasn't this thing trying to kill me. It was this thing trying to connect back with me. I felt like. Like, for the first time, it was almost like I had this moment where it was like.
Stacey Harkey [01:15:20] Like, be it God, the universe, whatever you want to call it was like, you're fighting you. I made you this. You're not changing. You're fighting it. So maybe you should stop fighting it. And I was just like, oh, my. And it really, like, changed the game for me.
Stacey Harkey [01:15:38] And I think I've done a lot of. I was doing a lot of research building up to that, too. So I feel like there's, like, a lot of things that went into play, but as of that moment, I felt like who I was was divinely supported and be that queer, be that black, be that short, king under five, six, you know what I'm saying? Like, all those identities were, like, a huge part of me. And so I should stop fighting them and should maybe try to connect with them.
Stacey Harkey [01:16:01] And it was, like, very iconic. If it was like, you know, we're back in that scenario of the monsters breaking in the bathroom. I felt like I just opened the door and let the monster in and realized it never wanted to hurt me. It was trying to save me. This whole time, it was trying to help me be happy.
Stacey Harkey [01:16:17] And it, like, literally changed the game. Like, I started. I came out to some. I started coming out to people, like, immediately, like, my sister. I came out to my younger sister, and she was like, yes, finally, you're not the perfect child anymore.
Stacey Harkey [01:16:32] But, like, it was, like, immediately supported my sisters, my family. My mom had a hard time, but I was like. At this point, I was like, ma, listen, that's between you and your therapist. I know where I'm going. So, like, you do your thing. Good luck.
Gerardo Sumano [01:16:46] Were they asking you, what's your plan? What are you gonna do about it?
Stacey Harkey [01:16:49] No, my mom was just like. My mom was very, very active. She was just like, hey, listen, what did she say? She was like. I called her, and she was like, I will always love you and support you. Okay? But you can't bring all that stuff in my house. And I was like, hey, listen, I respect it. That's your home. That's your rules. I probably will never be to your house. I Then. And she was like, what? And I was like, ma, you can't expect me to leave 25% of myself at your door when I come to your house. I have been denying myself for too long, and I'm not going back in the closet for anyone.
Stacey Harkey [01:17:23] So you keep. That's. I respect your rules. You do your thing, but I'm gonna do my thing. So if that's how you feel, that's great. You know, not, that's great, but, like, I respect that. But I probably won't see you for a while.
Stacey Harkey [01:17:36] And I was once. I. Once. I know something. People that know me, they're like, you. I like, hold on. Hold firm to it. Which made me a good Mormon. But my mom called me back later and was like. She was like, oh, my gosh, you were right. I was wrong. I'll make the bouquet at the wedding. Because when I came out to my family, I was like, I don't want you to just be like, stacey's gay. I want you to know what that means for me. Cause I was like, hey, Mom, I'm gay. I'm gonna start dating men, and I will marry a man. So are you Coming to the wedding.
Stacey Harkey [01:18:03] And she was like, whoa. And I was like, I know it's a lot. Take your time. But I just wanted them to know what that meant in my life. It wasn't like, I'm gay, but I'm gonna, like, do my best to, like, do what you want me.
John Dehlin [01:18:15] No.
Stacey Harkey [01:18:15] I was like, this is what it means, so take the time you need. We can have as many conversations as you want. But I came out pretty quickly. Once that happened in 2018, I just was, like, coming out to everybody. And then I came out publicly in 2018 in, like, December, I believe, because I wanted to come out before I went back home to Texas for Christmas and just, like, faced everyone doing the hard, scary thing.
Stacey Harkey [01:18:38] And it was just. It was one of the best things for me. Like, the immediate shift of, like, my mood, my mindset, even just, like, how I felt with myself. Like, I'm getting better at getting to know myself and living in a way that was authentic to me. There were, like, these habits. Like, I was like. And, like, back in my studio c days, I was a little bit thicker around the waist, which is cool. But I didn't realize until I came out that I was, like. Like turning to food to stifle my loneliness. And then I came out and started dating guys. And I remember eating dinner and being like, I'm full.
Stacey Harkey [01:19:13] And I was like, I've never felt this. It just, like, all these things started, like, working out for me. Like, I finally stopped fighting myself. And I think this applies in more cases than just sexuality. I had people reaching out to me, and they were like, I don't want to have kids, but everyone's telling me I should have kids. And you coming in out gave me courage to stand firm in what I believe. And I was like, whoa, that's wild. But, like, kudos to you. Or someone was like. Someone reached out, and they were like, my mom died. And everyone. I feel like I should.
Stacey Harkey [01:19:41] I'm not allowed to mourn her for some reason. It's like, I shouldn't be there. But, like, you coming out gave me courage to mourn my mother, and I was like, okay, cool. But the thing is, I think, like, game recognizes game. Like, authenticity allows other people to be authentic in whatever way that looks like for them. It just gives them permission to shine in their own way. Yeah, I feel like I'm rambling all over.
John Dehlin [01:20:02] No, you're not. No, it's called gold is what that was. Okay, so you mentioned 2018 is when you came out.
Stacey Harkey [01:20:10] I did, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:20:10] I have A couple questions please. Maybe going a tiny bit back in the timeline, I want to talk about two things. Number one, do you remember the exclusion policy that came out in 2015?
Stacey Harkey [01:20:23] I do.
John Dehlin [01:20:24] Three years before you came out. Where? For those who have never been Mormon, where the Mormon church, in response to same sex marriage being legalized across the entire United States, created what we now call the exclusion policy, which was that any same sex married couple would automatically be excommunicated from the church and any children, if either parent was in a same sex marriage would not be allowed to be baptized until they were 18 and denounced their parents marriage. That was the November 2015 exclusion policy. Was Studio C already going by 2015?
Stacey Harkey [01:21:04] We were, yeah. In 2015 we were in full swing.
John Dehlin [01:21:06] So like, yeah, talk about what the 2015 policy was like then I want to back up and talk about what it's like to start becoming a super popular social media phenomenon within Mormonism, knowing internally that you were a closeted gay man. But start with the exclusion policy.
Stacey Harkey [01:21:24] So with the exclusion policy. I remember at this point, I haven't thought about this in years. I was doing a. I had this group of friends in like one of my church groups, one of my wards, and we would get together and just like have discussions because sometimes we felt like church wasn't. We couldn't really like get into the nitty gritty. We wanted to be like, give support about life. We want to talk about individuals and be like, let's give each other support and just like, can I love going deep. I'm the kind of person who's like, people walk up to me sometimes, like at different places I teach at, and especially when they find out I'm gay, they'll be like, they just feel like I've opened up to them and I don't know if you get that.
Stacey Harkey [01:22:01] And they'll just drop something intense. And I love it. One lady found out I was gay and she was like, my brother died. And I was like, tell me more. Like, give me every. Let's go. So I have this group with my friends and we have this conversation and someone brings up the exclusion policy.
Stacey Harkey [01:22:16] And I was unfamiliar with everything. I was in the closet at this time. But I, everyone, it was crazy because we all were just trying to figure out how that was like, Christ. Like, we were all like trying to figure out like, where, why, and like we were going about it in like a pretty respectful way to the church, but we were just like trying to figure out why, why, you know, And I, I don't Remember coming to a good conclusion. I think that might have been one of those things where I was like, doesn't make sense. You know, I just put in that basket of like, people are trying their best with what they have and they don't have a lot making mistakes, you know?
Gerardo Sumano [01:22:54] Yeah, well. But Russell Nelson did go to. I mean, I guess not Provo, but he went to byu, Hawaii to say that this was revelation directly from God.
John Dehlin [01:23:05] But it sounds like Stacey was just not plugged in there.
Stacey Harkey [01:23:07] I just, I wasn't. But like, I mean like, I hate to be that guy, but like, I feel like it gets really tricky to know what is. Especially when it's like, when is. When are they wearing their I'm a man hat and when are they wearing their this is revelation hat? Yeah. And I feel like it's always. We only find out in retrospect. Right, right. So it's always like, well, I guess we gotta. Maybe we have the responsibility to take that information. But that's why we dissected ourselves.
Gerardo Sumano [01:23:34] It was such a big deal because they usually don't tell us, but there they did tell us that that was revelation.
Stacey Harkey [01:23:40] They also had revelation that like black people showed the priesthood after not having black people hold the priesthood. So I think I was just like, okay, you do your thing. I have this thing where I was like, listen, if an all powerful God wants me to know and believe something, I believe he'll help me do it if I'm trying my best. And if he doesn't, then like, why worry about it? You know what I mean? So I'd be like, okay, whatever. And if God wants me to know it one day, he'll. He'll put it. He'll help me realize it. And if not, then I ain't worrying about it.
Stacey Harkey [01:24:09] Yeah, but I feel like sometimes we like, especially coming from like a LDS background, we talk about this all powerful God who can like split oceans and do stuff. And then we like limit him so much where it's like, you won't do that. And I'm like, you play by the rules of your own game. I'm gonna do my own. You know what I mean? So I think I had that concept down where I was like, all right, whatever. Like, whatever, just figure it out. People are trying their best and making mistakes.
John Dehlin [01:24:35] Dude. Gerardo, I think Stacey was smarter than us.
Stacey Harkey [01:24:37] I don't know about that for sure. I think Stacey grew up in a mixed faith home and had a lot more flexibility when it came to.
John Dehlin [01:24:44] A lot.
Stacey Harkey [01:24:45] Yeah, a lot of flexibility. When it came to, like, what was religion? And what is, like, even the idea of perfection? I had a father who would drink and smoke and was one of the best people I know.
Stacey Harkey [01:24:56] So, like, when people would be like, caffeine is bad or coffee's bad, I'd be like, I didn't drink coffee. But I never looked at my dad and was like, dad's dropping the ball. I was like, if I could be half the man that human is, then I would be doing it right, you know? So I'm like, you learn flexibility. Maybe that's what it was in your upbringing. It's like this concept that, like, whenever there is this black and white in, like, any teaching at all, I automatically. My brain, like, raises a red flag where it's like, it's just. Life isn't like that. That, like, it's never all black and white.
Stacey Harkey [01:25:26] What works for one person will not work for someone else. We say killing is wrong, and you could be disfellowshipped for killing. But we, like, celebrate scriptures that celebrate someone murdering someone. And not to say that that's good or bad, it's just like, there's just nuance in all things. Right. And so I'm like, I think it's okay to embrace the nuance and to, if that's the case, like, take the responsibility into your own hands to find out about what resonates with you and what doesn't.
John Dehlin [01:25:56] Love it. So the 2015 policy didn't hit you very hard, it sounds like.
Stacey Harkey [01:26:01] I remember discussing it and being like, I don't really love this, but I never felt like the church had a good relationship with the queer community ever. So I was never. I don't know if I was ever surprised or even just, like, in that space enough to really. Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [01:26:19] Understand what was going on or.
Stacey Harkey [01:26:20] Yeah. Grapple with it.
John Dehlin [01:26:21] You're like, that's on brand.
Stacey Harkey [01:26:22] I just.
John Dehlin [01:26:22] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [01:26:23] I was like, hey, listen, at least they're consistent. No, but. But I. I just. Yeah. I don't remember being, like, too in turmoil or disarray, I guess.
Gerardo Sumano [01:26:32] Yeah.
Studio C Fame Colliding With a Closeted Life
John Dehlin [01:26:32] Okay, so what about the building pressure of Studio C's fame juxtaposed with your closeted gayness as a Mormon and worrying about those two things coming to a head at some point or blowing up or did you just compartmentalize all the way up until 2018 when you came out and it exploded?
Stacey Harkey [01:26:54] I always talk about building up to 2018 as, like, it was like, a lot of people, especially in the queer community, have this. It's almost like this chance to, like, start to experiment a little bit. Like, try things that they're like, I don't know if I'm gay. Let me spend time with a boy I have a crush with. Let me hold a hand, kiss a guy, right? And I didn't feel like I had that freedom or flexibility because I felt like I would walk out in public and people would like, oh, my gosh, I love your show. And, like, way to do it, dude. Like, so I didn't feel like I could do.
Stacey Harkey [01:27:24] I didn't feel like I had any privacy outside of my own home. So I feel like a lot of, like, my transition was very internal. So I feel like I went into this, like, chrysalis. I went into this cocoon and was just, like, turned myself into guts and, like, rearranged who I am to come out of Butterfly. But so when it came to this poly, or when it came to, like, like, grappling with the building pressure of Studio C, which was fun to be like, people love what we do. So that was good.
Stacey Harkey [01:27:49] But what was tough was I was just trying to figure myself out. I wasn't, like. I never felt like I was being disingenuous. Cause I wasn't. I was like. I was always like. That was amongst. That time is when I'm, like, sitting down with bishops and I'm like, yo, your boy is gay. What do we do? Or like.
Stacey Harkey [01:28:06] Or just being like, oh, you know, Bishop, I did this thing, like, tell me what I need to do to. What you feel like I need to do to be good or whatever. But, like, I was always authentic in it. And I think that was really. It'd be really weird. Especially at that time. I remember being like, people make mistakes. That's just what we do. That's the whole point of, like, the theology behind the Atonement is that we're flawed. So, like, yeah, like, don't be weird. Just be an imperfect person and do your best. I don't know. But, yeah. So I never really felt like I was like, no, what do I do?
Stacey Harkey [01:28:37] Am I being disingenuous? I do remember looking back thinking, like, if I would have come to the conclusion I did when I was working for Studio C, I would have come out, like, I would have done it. I would have done the hard thing. I would have faced the fear. It would have been terrifying. Because people lose their jobs at BYUTV for being queer. It just is how it is. It shouldn't be the case. But that stuff happens. I've heard stories, seen examples.
Stacey Harkey [01:29:00] BYU TV doesn't exactly celebrate diversity. I think there's. They're trying in different ways to figure out what that means, but it's just like. It's tough. Like you're a network tied to a church that's tied to a university. And, you know, so it's like, you know, whatever. It's complex. But yeah, I just kind of, like, was working to figure myself out while I was, like, working and doing my thing.
John Dehlin [01:29:29] So did you just sort of suggest that maybe you had some dating experiences while you were doing Studio C and or byu? Because you talked about repenting to a bishop.
Stacey Harkey [01:29:40] Oh, yeah. Just for, like, Internet search history or something.
John Dehlin [01:29:43] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [01:29:44] Just being like, whoops, slipped up. But it wasn't like that. It wasn't that frivolous. I'd actually be like, genuinely like, hey. Like, if. Like, hey. If I felt bad about it, I'd go talk to someone about it and be like, hey, what do I need to do? And I constantly had to remind myself that, like, my relationship with the divine or what I feel like is like, you know, like, where I'm trying to go is not about the person I'm talking to. That's just almost like a show of respect to the process. And so I like. Like once on my mission, I kind of. I guess I've been this way for a while.
Stacey Harkey [01:30:14] Once on my mission, me and this companion had like, a really. We just were not vibing. And he, like, spoke to the mission president about it. He was like, Stacey's like, office rocker. And I found. Thought he was off his rocker. Whatever. Two stories to everything, right? Anyways, mission president's like, hey, what's going on here? Blah, blah, blah. And I was like, hey, Let me just clarify something really fast with you, mission president.
Stacey Harkey [01:30:38] I'm not here for you. I'm here because I believe in what this is. I'm here for God doing what I feel is right. I'm not here for you. And I say this in all due respect. I just want you to know that, like, your approval of me is like, second to God's and my own. So just letting you know. But that's kind of like a style I've had. So I was just like, I know. And that kind of. I look back and I'm like, that's kind of crazy. Yeah, I think he really respected it. I did it. I said it in a respectful way. I was like, hey.
Stacey Harkey [01:31:04] I'm like, I'm not here on the mission to get the approval of people or to be liked. I'm just trying to do my best. And that companion was. He had some. Everyone's doing the best with what they have.
Stacey Harkey [01:31:18] This is a whole nother. Those little stories for another time. Later, I found out I was his favorite companion. And I was like, oh, my gosh. What? Yeah, it was rough anyways, but, like, that mindset is one that I've had. And, like, whether it's like, at BYUTV is Studio C is getting bigger, or talking to religious leaders, it's like, I'm not here for you. I'm not like, man, come on now.
John Dehlin [01:31:41] What.
Stacey Harkey [01:31:42] What a waste of life to live it for other people. That's a great way to be unhappy. As I was learning, right? And so I do feel like that was like, the final. The final stone in, like, Thanos glove was like, finally, like, embracing my sexuality and coming out. And I was like, like, I felt so. I felt so.
Stacey Harkey [01:32:02] Man. When you're authentic, when you're not, like, editing your behavior or yourself for other people, you can focus on the things that matter. I felt like I could be more creative. I wasn't hiding anymore. My relationships with other people grew so much stronger when I could let people see me who. You know what I'm talking about. When I could let people see that I was like, I was gay.
Stacey Harkey [01:32:24] I was addicted to the feeling of coming out to close friends. Because we immediately became closer. Only one or two people responded a little weird, and they're over it now. I'm like, whatever. But all these positives came from. There's a scripture I always quote that it's by their fruits, you shall know them. I can't even remember where it is. But the concept is, like, we're talking about. They're talking about prophets in the Old Testament or in the New. I don't know. But it's like, the concept is if the tree is good, it'll have good fruit. If the profit is good, the results will be good, right?
Stacey Harkey [01:32:56] And I'm like, okay, there are some trees out there that maybe people have told me they're bad and they're bad fruit. But I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. So a good way to find out if the tree is good, try the fruit.
Stacey Harkey [01:33:08] And so I'm at this point, I'm like, trying the fruit of this tree, this thing that I've always thought was wrong. And I'm like, this is amazing. I'm feeling better about myself. I'm able to give more to relationships and people around me, and I'm able to, like, succeed in Other ways. I was like, this is a good fruit. And so it forced me to look at, like, this structure I had lived within. And I was like, I'm living within the confines these fences that someone else built for me. And they're saying, this is happiness is in these fences. And I'm experiencing the fact that that's not the case for this really huge primary concept, my sexuality.
Stacey Harkey [01:33:42] And so at this point, I think I started analyzing my relationship with the church, where I was like, okay, well, maybe what I need to do do is I need to take my beliefs into my own hands. I need to look at all these fences that have been built by someone else, and I need to analyze if those fences make sense for me. And so I felt like in the analogy, I would go and, like, test the integrity. I'd move the fence and I'd be like, oh, this feels better, actually. So I was just, like, adjusting all my beliefs one by one. I was just tackling something different each, like, week. I'd be like, what about this? How do I feel about this? And it was really, really cool.
Gerardo Sumano [01:34:14] Cool. Were you attending church still?
Stacey Harkey [01:34:17] Yeah, probably. I'm trying to think of, like, yeah, most likely. I really love the. I love the community of the environment. There's a point where I was starting to feel like so much that was being said, though. I was like, I don't know if I agree with that. And I don't know if that's, like. Especially when it came to sexuality.
Stacey Harkey [01:34:32] And sometimes when it comes to, like, shame and how we talk about individuals, I hate that, like, this, like, this, like, pedestal, like. Like, good, bad, right, wrong, me thriving, succeeding with the truth. Them struggling, wishing they knew. And I think that just, like, removes the opportunity to learn from other people, like, who are different. And so I remember at one point, it was probably during the pandemic, when I was like, church is becoming a big burden. It's becoming tough. I go, and I don't leave feeling good or edified. And so I was like, let me not go. And I didn't go one Sunday. And I was like, this is amazing.
Stacey Harkey [01:35:09] I was like, amazing. The time I had the sleep was great. I was like, this is just so good. But I feel like a lot of the things I believe still heavily relate to a lot of my upbringing. But I've kind of just like, taken them into my own hands and then adjusted according to what works for me. And so I feel like some people are like, oh, when did you leave the church? And I was like, I don't Know if I ever, like, left, I felt like I just started. Started living life in a way that makes sense for me, doing my own thing.
Stacey Harkey [01:35:35] And then I'll, like, look across the board and be like, oh, we've kind of grown apart a little bit. Like, we're kind of in different places. And then I, like, live my life and do my own thing. And then I look and I'm like, oh. Like, I feel very. Like we're in very different places. And that's not like a. We're in different places. I'm, like, looking down. It's just like, hey, that doesn't work for me, and that's okay. And I know there are some people, a lot of people that. That works really well for, and, like, that's okay.
John Dehlin [01:35:57] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [01:35:58] Like, do what works for you. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:36:02] Love it. Okay. So. Wow. I think what I just heard is that after you came out in 2018, you stayed in the church for at least a couple more years, which is great.
Stacey Harkey [01:36:15] It's like, honestly, I just don't even know how to define church.
John Dehlin [01:36:18] Continued attending?
Stacey Harkey [01:36:19] Yeah. I would just go. I would go, and I would attend, and I would. I was actually pretty involved. Well, as much as I could be, I did. I'm just, like, very upfront. Before I came out publicly, I.
Stacey Harkey [01:36:31] The one bishop whose ward I was in, I was like, hey, heads up. First off, I'd never talked to him about anything before that, but I was like. I had, like, three callings in the ward, and I was like, hey, so I'm gay.
Stacey Harkey [01:36:43] I'm gonna date, and I just want to give you a heads up. I don't want you to feel like I tricked you or something. And his, like, jaw hit the floor. He was like. He literally said. He was like, like, but you're so good.
Stacey Harkey [01:36:54] And I was like, that's right. I got you. No, I was just like. It was actually really important for me to talk to him that up front, you know, the whole, like, facing thing. Because I was like, I think it's important for him to see that, like, I am, like, contributing a lot to, like, the. The ward and the connection. And I'm not a monster. I'm not like, a, you know, a delinquent of society. I'm not, like, slinking in the shadows. Like, I'm living a pretty, like, happy, thriving life. But he was so. He was so unsure how to handle it. He was like, hey, okay, so.
Stacey Harkey [01:37:28] And he was a real straight shooter, too, which I appreciate, but he was like, hey, if you. He was like, okay, nothing Wrong with being gay. If you act on it, we have to handle it.
Gerardo Sumano [01:37:37] What year was this?
Stacey Harkey [01:37:37] This was 2018. Because around that time, right when I came out and I was like, okay, what does that mean? So, like, if I act on being gay, what does that mean? If that. Is that if I act. Kiss a boy, hug a boy, hold hands, maintain eye contact, like, what does it mean? Because all those feel pretty gay in some front. And he was like, oh. He was like, let me get back to you. And then he went and talked to the SIG president and came back, and he was like, anything gay? And I was like, all right. What I'm hearing is that maybe we don't know what that is. So I'm gonna do my best with what I have, and you do the best with what you have.
Gerardo Sumano [01:38:16] Have.
Stacey Harkey [01:38:16] And if you need to, like, disfellowship me, I was just like. I said, if you need to handle it in any way, I will not fault you for you trying to do the best with what you have. And I would hope that you do the same for me, but that's. It's really not a concern of mine, so I'm going to do my thing. You do your thing. All the respect for you. I know you're trying your best. Good luck.
John Dehlin [01:38:34] So you didn't live in fear dating men as a single Mormon man and still attending church?
Stacey Harkey [01:38:42] Dude, once I came out, I was like, like, dude, if I feel like the divine is on my side, like, what man is going to stand in my. If I feel like the universe, my. The very nature and essence and, like, be it. Call it God, the universe or whatever, if I feel like I'm supported by the powers that be, I'm like, who's going to stand in my way? Like, like Bishop, who's like, I've never known a gay person's going to be like, no. I'm going be like, bruh, put you in that basket. Whoops.
Stacey Harkey [01:39:09] So I'd like. I'd, like, have. And I had this, like. Like, confidence in who I am and what I'm doing in a way that, like, honestly, if the prophet of the Mormon Church sat down, was like, you cannot do this. I'd be like, how are you going to stop me? You're going to show up on a date, you might like it. Careful. No, but I mean, just, like, making light of it. But just the concept, though, is that, like, when I have that, like, support that. When I felt like I had that divine support and I still believe in God, like, I still have the divine support.
Stacey Harkey [01:39:41] I'm like, what man is going to. Like what? Like, if you disagree with me, that's between you and your therapist. I don't care, you know? And I get. When I came out, I got a lot of pushback, but once again, I was like, all right, Edna from Kansas, I have no idea who you are. And you, while you're. While you're trying to do what's right, you don't know me. And so your opinion and your perspective means very little. You know what I mean? It's just like, you just can't. Yeah, but if someone was like. Like, my best friend was like, hey, this is how I feel, that would be different. Someone who knows me and is more familiar with my situation.
Gerardo Sumano [01:40:18] Well, yeah, but basically, the bishop didn't give you the stamp of approval for you to date.
Stacey Harkey [01:40:26] No, but I did go to a different ward after because I just, like, aged out. Once you turn like 31, you go to a different ward. Cause I'm like, I'm not. I don't really run. I'm not running from nobody. I was like, me and Bishop are sitting down. So I went to a new ward eventually, and the bishopric was like, oh, we want to get to know you. And I was like, hey, heads up, I'm gay, I'm dating, and I just want a place where I can worship and figure things out, you know, at my own pace. And they were like, hey, you're in the right place. My kids come to this ward. We need more people. We need more diversity. And I was like, I was ready for a fight. I was ready to be like, I'm good. What year was this? This was in probably 2019.
Coming Out, Church Response, and Sexual Trauma
Gerardo Sumano [01:41:07] Okay. So there was a big difference, because in 2018, I mean, I have to look at the months, but in 2018. So you know how bishops in the Mormon Church, they use this handbook where it kind of gives them all the instructions on how to handle cases. And there's certain sections about homosexuality. So back then in 2018, the handbook still said, like, the language was homosexual behavior. So homosexual behavior was against the doctrine of the Church.
Stacey Harkey [01:41:39] There was cross legged, and he's like,
Gerardo Sumano [01:41:40] no, there was no definition what homosexual behavior was. The only definition was the BYU honor code, which actually was pretty explicit. And originally in 2008, or, you know, back then in 2018, the honor code, it encompassed anything romantic was homosexual behavior. I think it was pretty explicit. And there was like three or four sentences explaining exactly what homosexual behavior was. But in 2019, when the church reverses the exclusion policy they come out with this statement saying, well, now we're going to treat homosexuals the same way we treat heterosexuals in terms of the law of chastity.
Stacey Harkey [01:42:25] Yes, that's true.
Gerardo Sumano [01:42:25] And the handbook changes.
Stacey Harkey [01:42:27] Game changer.
Gerardo Sumano [01:42:28] And now the homosexual behavior language is removed from the handbook. And now it's very explicit. It's same sex marriage and anything that's sex outside of marriage.
Stacey Harkey [01:42:40] So I think that ward I was in, there was a handful of queer men. Because there were, like, older single men in the church. Like, of course they're gonna start gathering. But I think the bishop in that ward was like, yeah, y' all can date.
Stacey Harkey [01:42:53] But I was like, in the. My whole thing was just like, I'm not looking for permission, right? So, like, I'm not asking if I can. The only thing I'm asking is if I can be, like, respected. Like, I can be respected here. And once they were like. And they were really cool about it, they were like, you want a calling? And I was like, yeah, man.
Stacey Harkey [01:43:13] And I, like, did my thing. And I was like. My whole goal, though, was, like, figuring out where I was with religion and how I wanted to. You know, I still took a lot of comfort for being in, like, this space that I had grown up my whole life going to.
Stacey Harkey [01:43:26] But it was starting to get really, just uncomfortable to be like, oh, this is. I don't agree with this. I don't really agree with this. Or this is kind of weird. I feel like I'm like, oh, my gosh. I really love the human aspect and the community of it, which is beautiful, and I think that's so healthy.
Stacey Harkey [01:43:42] But some of the other things I was having a hard time with as far as just, like. Like, knowing, like, I'm like, oh, this isn't bringing good into my life. But that word was just so great. Everyone was so supportive. I feel like the leadership was just like, yeah. And I really lucked out with, like, my, like, religious leaders. Cause I've heard stories that people have had and. Oh, my gosh. Wow. But, yeah, they were just like, yeah, do your thing. And that's good.
John Dehlin [01:44:10] Being 53 and growing up Mormon, just the idea of a bishop telling a gay man that he can date and saying he's okay with it. Members of the ward, like, even now, I think most Mormons would say, there's no way that could ever happen.
Gerardo Sumano [01:44:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:44:23] I think it's probably becoming more and more common, but it is kind of mind blowing to hear that.
Stacey Harkey [01:44:28] It was mind blowing. And I know I had some friends who were Very. They were just, like, kind of like really sad queer friends who were really sad because they were, like, sacrificing decades of their life to something that just, like, changed. And it was hard for them to justify, I think, like, because on one end, you could be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so happy it changed. Like, I'm so relieved. But for someone who was like, putting like, this is an eternal principle, which is why I must adhere to it. My sacrifice, my suffering is not in vain, because this is God's plan. And then to have it switch so fast was like, like, really jarring for them. And I. My heart went out to them, and I think they're doing well now. But, yeah, I was like, oh, that. I mean, that seems tough. You know, I don't envy them. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:20] There's kind of this celebrity deference within Mormon culture sometimes. Some examples, you know, I could mention might be, you know, Tyler Glenn. When I was, you know, hanging out with Tyler quite a bit from Neon Trees, he came out as gay. I was told that there was kind of words sent throughout church headquarters. Leave Tyler alone because he's a celebrity. And of course, it would be disastrous for the church on Rolling Stone magazine to have, like, Tyler Glenn write, I was excommunicated for being gay. So they left him alone. Right?
Stacey Harkey [01:45:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:45:53] People can't see. What'd you just do?
Stacey Harkey [01:45:54] I just tapped my nose of, like, I've thought about this. Where I'm like, I wonder if some of my experience has been from privilege of being well known in these LDS spaces where I'm like, like, like I have a platform. And if. And I'm not, like, being like, and if you come for me, but I'm like, and if something happened and I was very, like, open and honest about it, I'm like, could be kind of messy. I remember thinking about that. But I was like, and, and like, I, I, I never, ever said to a bishop, like, I wasn't like, I dare you. Like, oh, I'm going to go on Instagram, do a cute little P.O.
Stacey Harkey [01:46:29] about it all. No, but just the air of authenticity. It's like, listen, my thing is, like, that has always seemed so unhealthy to me. Like, you hide the mistakes of others so they don't look bad. It's like, what the. Like, I get in one aspect, if you're like, hey, this is family business or something. But it seems really like a great way to perpetuate abuse, to be like, I am going to. It's like this. So I had this Friend once, growing up, it was like freshman year, and she had been assaulted by a guy. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And I found out she was in tears.
Stacey Harkey [01:47:06] And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, let's go talk to someone. And she was like, no. And I was like, why not? And she was like, I don't want to jeopardize his chances of going on a mission. And I was like, the way. And I'm not saying, like, I think that's like, Like, I mean, at the end of the day, what I told her, I was like, that is not your responsibility. His actions are his responsibility. And he made that choice. And he can sit with the consequences of that choice, or at least the exposure that comes from that choice is not one for you to protect him from.
Stacey Harkey [01:47:38] You are a victim. And I feel like that happens in other spaces sometimes where it's like, this person did this thing or this corporation or this entity does this thing, and we can't talk about it for fear of making them look bad. It's like, no, no, no. If it was done, it done. Let the truth be the truth.
Gerardo Sumano [01:47:54] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [01:47:55] And if the consequences are negative, and you know what I mean? It's like, regardless of if it's good or bad, the truth is the truth. And hiding that, I just don't know how. What that does for people, for individuals, and if anything, I just see problems with that. It's like, you know, if I fire somebody from my company and other people find out, like, I did it, I better own it. Right. That's just like part of, like, sitting with the decisions now. Whether it's good or bad, it's like it just, it happened, you know?
John Dehlin [01:48:27] Yeah, yeah. You just, you know, Mormon Stories has been around 18 years, and we started interviewing gay Mormons in our very first year in 2005, and just to see how so many gay people were either taught to be celibate or taught to get in mixed orientation marriages, or taught to do conversion therapy and. Or excommunicated just for, like, dating. You know what I mean?
Stacey Harkey [01:48:51] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:52] To see that and that that stuff still goes on to this day, but then to see kind of this bishop roulette and or privilege dynamic where now there's a whole generation of people that are given a totally different set of rules. I mean, it's. I mean, it's bittersweet because you love the progress, but the injustice. It reminds me of all the black men, frankly, who were in prisons for, like, selling weed. And now states have legalized in many Cases, people are making millions of medicinal and recreational marijuana. It's like, well, then why did we incarcerate generations of black men over something that now is totally okay? Like, the injustice of the difference of people's treatment over time is just. It's an ethical, moral problem for me. Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [01:49:43] Yeah. And I look at this, and I think, honestly, that's why I got into, like, the DEI space of, like, talking about my experiences. Being queer or black in, like, straight or, you know, white spaces is because I feel like I've had a pretty privileged experience growing up, whether it's with race or my sexuality. And so I think I feel like I have the responsibility to take what I've learned and the lack of trauma I might have experienced in certain ways and to help make our community better for other people.
Stacey Harkey [01:50:14] Cause honestly, I really am a firm believer that, like, we are not surrounded by bad people. We're just surrounded by people that don't have enough resources, that haven't been exposed to differences, and so they don't really know where to put it. And often we come at them like, you know, like, I saw this video the other day of a dog seeing someone in a Santa Claus outfit, and they attack them because the dog is, like, scared. Right. And I think we do that a lot. You attack something that's unfamiliar, first instinct is to, like, put a cross up and burn it at the stake.
Stacey Harkey [01:50:44] And so, hopefully, by like, sharing my experiences, I can minimize some of the trauma of someone else out there. I don't know. You know what I mean? But, yeah, I feel like I've had a pretty. And I think part of that might be, honestly, in other ways, my, like, perspective or my. My style. Because if my. My bishop would have been like, we're going to disfellowship you. I would have been like, do what you got to do, man. And I would have meant it. When I. I. When I told him, I. I will respect you doing what you feel is right, because I'm trying to do the same, I meant it.
Stacey Harkey [01:51:14] I did tell him, too. When I came out, I was like, hey, Bishop. And I kind of threw him for a loop. But I was like, I kind of feel like I understand more of what Joseph Smith went through when he prayed for something and got an answer that no one else really supported him in. And I specifically used that example because I was like, I want you to know that, like, I've really thought about this. This is the experience I had. And he was so, like.
Stacey Harkey [01:51:38] He was like, hold on. Oh, wait. I was Like, Joseph Smith's loved ones were like, hey, man, don't do it. His religious leaders told him not to do it or whatever. And I was like, I kind of get that dynamic now. And he. I don't think he loved that, but I was like, that's true. That's how I feel.
Stacey Harkey [01:51:58] For me, I think people should just be honestly, like, my. If my platform is like. Like, work to be authentic and then, like, learn who you are and then live in a way that reflects that. And if. And I don't know, I just think nuance, even if it's like, in our beliefs, we see it a lot nowadays where it's like, in LDS spaces, there are a lot more nuanced ways people are approaching that. And there might be concerns from people that are like, how can you do halfway? Or, how can you. But whatever. But I'm like, I think everyone's happier if you just let yourself be more nuanced.
Stacey Harkey [01:52:26] If you let yourself do what works for you, and then if it doesn't, analyze why and make a change. You know what I mean? Like,
John Dehlin [01:52:35] so when you, you know, Charlie Bird or Ben Shloty come to mind. I don't know if those names mean anything to you.
Stacey Harkey [01:52:41] I love. I love Charlie and Ben.
John Dehlin [01:52:42] Yeah. Like, there is a mind. Or even Tom Kristofferson. There's a mindset that I respect, which is, look, obviously the church has a long way to go with respect to many things, including the LGBT experience. But we're gonna be able to make a bigger impact if we stay in it and try to change it from within, even if it's hard. You've already sort of said that at some point, it started to get uncomfortable for you. Yeah, but what if you had to. If you had to try and speculate as to what made it so you didn't wanna make that choice. When other people, like Charlie or Ben or Tom have decided to make that choice, do you know what that would be?
Stacey Harkey [01:53:25] I mean, I remember specifically saying to myself, I was like, I'm going to carve a space out for people like me. It was hard. It was like, man, I can't even. I gotta first get a space myself. I felt like. I was like, you see those, like, what is it? Salmon swimming upstream and they eventually just die.
John Dehlin [01:53:42] Oh.
Stacey Harkey [01:53:42] I was like, you get always.
John Dehlin [01:53:43] Is that what happens?
Stacey Harkey [01:53:44] But it's like they swim upstream to, like, spawn, right? And they're, like, fighting against the very elements of nature. Water flowing in the opposite direction. This, that these. And they know. They know the extent of the. Well, I don't know. I'm assuming these salmon know, but they swim to this point where they finally spawn and then they just die from exhaustion. Right. And I felt like that at a certain point where I was like, okay, I think it's good to have. I think it's actually really noble to suffer on behalf of the whole, especially if you're making something happen. Like, look at our women's suffrage and civil rights.
Stacey Harkey [01:54:17] Like, we don't look at Martin Luther King and we're like, what a crazy guy for trying. Like, we look at him and we're like, what a hero for doing what like other people couldn't do. Even though it was very collaborative, of course. But I think of those examples and I was like, I had to take account of my own health at a second and be like, okay, what am I doing this for?
Stacey Harkey [01:54:40] How do I feel? And make an assessment? And so now I think of. I think of like, social, civil rights work in general about this, where it's like, WWF wrestling, tap in, do your thing. When you're tired, tap out, tap out. If you want to tap back in, tap in, do your thing, tap out. Just like, just like, respect what you can give. And so when I look at people like Ben and Charlie and Tom Kristofferson, I am first off, just like blown away at the emotional reserves. And I'm always concerned when I meet these guys. I'm like, how are we doing? Are we doing okay?
Stacey Harkey [01:55:17] Do we need to tap out? Are we doing fine? And they're always like, chilling, but I'm just blown away at that space. And I hope for anyone who might be feeling that way that they're taking account of themselves too, that they're just making sure that they're not only worried about the health of an institution that means a lot to them, but they're also worried about their own health and their future and what that looks like. And they're adults. They can figure that out and they're doing their best. And I am very blown away at the impact that these people have had, had. Cuz while some people can look at them and be like, they're not living in the way that I think they should live.
Stacey Harkey [01:55:53] It's like, think of, like, look at all they've done. Look at like, the people they've reached that I will never be able to reach. You know what I mean? The. The hearts that they softened. And maybe you can say, but the doctrine hasn't changed. And you, you'd be wrong because it just changes all the time. But I want in, though. It's just like, it just depends on what your goal is. Right. If your goal is to make.
Stacey Harkey [01:56:13] Help some parent be a little more supportive to their queer kid in a way that their queer kid doesn't want to kill themselves, then, like, mission accomplished. If your goal is to get, like, this dude in his 80s to change church policy or something, maybe that is not happening. But I think it just depends on your goal, you know, or to get
John Dehlin [01:56:32] bishops to be more compassionate with the people they serve. Right.
Stacey Harkey [01:56:36] Yeah. Which I've had some. Honestly. And so you remember the ward I was in, the bishop was like, hey, do your thing. Ben Shilotti was in that ward. And I 100%, 100% give credit to Ben being his authentic self and sharing his experiences, to making my experience be one where I could figure out faith in a way that didn't leave me freaking traumatized. Right. That I could just be like, softly be like, oh, this doesn't work for me. I wish you the best. And, like, float away versus being like, feeling like I'm getting, like, attacked and burned at the stake. Like, why? Wow. I don't know.
John Dehlin [01:57:07] Yeah, I love it. Love it. Okay. So much fun. So much good here. So there are going to be a lot of, like, Studio C superfans that would want to just hear behind the scenes of, like, oh, interesting. Totally. Just as a cultural pop influence, as a comedic. It was kind of a comedic experiment, but from the Mormon Church and from byu.
Stacey Harkey [01:57:34] Very experimental, right? Very.
Reconstruction, Healing, and Life After the Church
John Dehlin [01:57:36] So, like, if we want to shift gears and I want to come back to kind of your. What do we call it? Growth and healing and growth. Kind of the reconstruction. I want to come back to your own reconstruction.
Stacey Harkey [01:57:49] I like that.
John Dehlin [01:57:50] And focus on, like, what's dating been like for you and growth and even the divine and beliefs and all that stuff. Come back to that. Were you. Were you okay?
Stacey Harkey [01:58:01] I should talk about my. My, like, Studio C crew.
John Dehlin [01:58:04] Let's do it.
Stacey Harkey [01:58:04] Because they were like, we have been working together. We were in Divine Comedy in College together since 2011. We've been working together for, like, over a decade. Holy cow. And some people longer with each other. And when I remember when I came out, I. We had started our own company and a lot of the people that were, like, following us, that fans of this were people that were like, fans of us at Studio C. LDS families.
Stacey Harkey [01:58:31] And at one point I pulled aside my co workers and I was like, hey, I'm going to come out publicly. This could really hurt our company. I was Like, I'm just being straight up. I did marketing and PR for the company. I was like, I'm going to be straight up. This could really hurt our company.
Stacey Harkey [01:58:46] And I think it might be good. And someone stopped me immediately. We're having this, like, company meeting. And they were like. Like, if they don't want you, we don't want them. They was like, this is your. Like, we want you to show up and be yourself. We don't want you to stifle it for anyone. If people have a problem with you, they have a problem with us. And I was like.
Stacey Harkey [01:59:05] And that was the. That was the only conversation we needed. They're, like, my biggest supporters. They're probably some of the reason, too. Like, my reconstruction has been where it is. They've always been so supportive and so loving and encouraging. Encouraging. The first date I went on, they were like.
Stacey Harkey [01:59:22] One of the guys was like, I don't like him. And I was like, why? And he was like, he was late, and you deserve better. It was just like. They were just like, with me. They're on Tinder, swiping with me through guys, right? Like, they're in it with me. It was never like this. Like, well, we love and accept you, but, like, our kids. Why don't we tell them? Like, they were just, like, in it with me, or like, love the.
John Dehlin [01:59:41] Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Stacey Harkey [01:59:43] Oh, let's just call that the garbage. It is right now. I'm sorry. Like, if that's something that. Even when in my most active days, I was like, let's analyze this. Like, right when you. When you say, love the sinner, hate the sin. And what you define as a sin is a part of who I am. You're saying, love you, hate you. You know what I mean? You're like, stop that garbage right now. God never. Jesus never said that. I don't know who did say that, but they probably. I don't know. I don't know if they're around anymore. But that feels like. Honestly, like, to me, it feels like a workaround.
Stacey Harkey [02:00:22] And, like, love one another, where it's like, I love you, but I kind of hate you. Like, it feels like it's a workaround. Love the center. Get out of here. Like, what is that? Like, if you're gonna love me, love me. When people say that too, they'll be like, I love you, but I gotta say. And I'm like, girl, Listen, we met 10 minutes ago. You don't love me. I think it's cute that you say that, but I don't know what that means to you, but I don't think we're on the same page. So I've had people that are like, will be in my DMs, and they're like, listen, I love you, but I have to tell you how wrong you are.
Stacey Harkey [02:00:55] And I'll be like, let's clarify something real fast. Clarabelle. I've never met you. I've never met you. I don't know who you are. So when you say you love me, I might need more context on how you define that. But for me, that's someone who shows support in my life, and I've never met you before. So we're gonna throw that out the window. Second blocked. I block people like, it's my birthday. No. But half the time when people reach out, I try to be very. Most of the time, I try to be very sincere. So if it's like, how dare you? And I'm like, hey, let's talk about it if you want.
Stacey Harkey [02:01:29] And then if they're just coming and roasting, if people comment on things in a way that I'm like, another queer kid might see this and want to kill themselves. I'm like. I'm like, block. I don't play. I don't play when it comes to other people. I'm like, block, Block. Buy. We don't do that. We're not doing it.
The Story and Impact of Studio C
John Dehlin [02:01:46] Love it. Any stories you want to tell about, like, the most famous skits, or, like, the growth of the popularity of Studio C? The role that it had, the personalities you worked with, or maybe that's its own. Maybe we can bring a couple other cast members and have that be its own episode. But is a there. Is there anything as a part of your story you would want to share
Stacey Harkey [02:02:07] that was very instrumental in my, like, finding out what authenticity meant? Cause it did provide. Like, all of a sudden, I'm fighting harder to be myself when everyone is now. Like, the thing about, like, celebrities that's so weird. Cause I'm like, I ain't no celebrity. I'm well known in Utah. But the thing about that is, like, you create this. You construct someone in your mind of who they are, and you don't know that them. You're, like, identifying their brand, and then you impose that onto them as, like, a human being. You're like, this is everything they are. And it's like, you don't know me. And so I have to constantly remind people and myself that even if it's praise or if it's insults, I'm like, they do not know you.
Stacey Harkey [02:02:52] They do not know you. They know a brand, they know a presentation. They know Maybe even a veneer, whatever. They know a snippet, and they think they know you. They do not know you. Right. So if someone's like, you're amazing. You're the greatest thing. It's like, I'm so sorry, but you don't know me. But I think that balance is important. But anyways, how did you go from
John Dehlin [02:03:12] a shy kid from Texas to. In one of the most popular creative productions of BYU ever?
Stacey Harkey [02:03:21] Wow. It's honestly looking at that transition from. So I changed schools my senior year because I wanted to prep for my mission. Lost all my friends, my little group of friends, because I was a little shy, Stacey. People would say, like, talk to me, and I would just start sweating. I was just so, so uncomfortable engaging with human beings.
Stacey Harkey [02:03:43] And I honestly, it's like working out. Everything's, like, working out. It's like fitness, where what happens is you, like, lift. You, like, put your muscles under strain to the point where they literally have to grow to accommodate, so you give a heavy weight and your body's, like, wrecked. And. And it's like, if I want to handle this, I got to get stronger. And so you're. You know, they get stronger through the struggle. That high school year was so freaking uncomfortable. I got to a point where I was like, I'm tired of it. I'm tired of it. I can't continue in this space like this. I need to reclaim me.
Stacey Harkey [02:04:15] And so this whole trajectory of, like, authenticity started. Then it was me trying to identify who I was and lit in a way. And maybe in high school, it was simple. It was like, I'm gonna dress how I want. I would stand in front of the mirror for hours and be like, what are people gonna think is cool? And I was like, forget that.
Stacey Harkey [02:04:34] I was like, I'm a dress. Like, I. So I would. I started wearing. I started pushing up against that by wearing weird stuff, which doesn't feel very, like, anti. It feels like, like, a high schooler would do that, but I would be, like, wearing soccer socks. And we. I was like, trying to just, like, confront that, like, push to conform.
Stacey Harkey [02:04:52] And it carried through going to, like, through byu, meeting people and going on a mission and coming back and, like, culminated through studio. Cuz I'm gonna tell y' all right now, the whole attention getting thing can, like, is not, like, always, like, grass is greener. I think some people, when people say they want to be famous, I'm like, gag that even just that phrase is weird. It's one thing to be known for the work you do, but to just have attention. You lose privacy and you get treated like an object all the time. I had people who would, like, they don't see a person, they see this brand and they want to, like. And it's really dehumanizing sometimes.
John Dehlin [02:05:29] Like, favors and.
Gerardo Sumano [02:05:30] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:05:31] Or just like, people. I'm trying to think. It's like they come up to you and they just want things from you. And that's not always everyone, but it just feels like it's just like pulling people, just pulling you. They just want more of you. And you have to get really good at setting boundaries. Like, there's times when people will come up for a picture and I'll be like, sorry, I'm not feeling it today. And they'll be like, you're a jerk. And I'd be like, I don't know you. Bye. Like, I don't like why your opinion can't mean much to me. Because I have to protect me. It's the same thing with, like, religion, where it's like, you have to protect you. Right. You have the responsibility to do the best for you. But to answer your question about Studio
John Dehlin [02:06:08] C, did you switch to acting in undergrad?
Stacey Harkey [02:06:12] I literally. Studio. I was gonna go into law school to be a lawyer. I was studying pr. I auditioned for Studio C to support a friend or for divine comedy. He was like, I wanna do audition for this college thing. And I was like, good, I'll go. And he was like, I want you to do it with me. And I was like, okay.
John Dehlin [02:06:29] So before then, you didn't have any comedy or acting experience?
Stacey Harkey [02:06:32] No.
John Dehlin [02:06:32] What?
Stacey Harkey [02:06:33] I literally did it to support a friend.
John Dehlin [02:06:35] What?
Stacey Harkey [02:06:35] And he didn't make it in. To this day, Dustin, he's like. We talk about. Cause he's like, oh, yeah, I got you there. But I just was like, okay, this is fun. I'll do it until I can't, you know, until law focuses. Take me away. But then it became a show called Studio C. And I was like, well, no, I'm getting a little bit of money from it. This is kind of cool.
John Dehlin [02:06:56] Oh, they paid you?
Stacey Harkey [02:06:57] Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a job not. Well, in the beginning, I was getting paid. I was getting paid, like, student wages.
John Dehlin [02:07:03] Oh, really?
Stacey Harkey [02:07:04] Cause I was a student. And so they were like, they love a good workaround, but I was getting paid nothing. But the fact that I was getting paid to do something that fun was like. Like, I was like, this is amazing. Like what? Like working with my good friends doing this goofy thing. Like what? And so that started growing. And then what happened with Studio C was we were all so surprised. It even took off. The most popular show on BYUTV before us was Fonz and Porters Quilting. Yeah. With a viewership of 2,000 people a
John Dehlin [02:07:34] week, how big did Studio C get?
Stacey Harkey [02:07:36] Studio C's viewership was like, we were getting like, like a hundred thousand views in, like, two days, you know? So, I mean, it was like, eventually. But when we started, we were on the same channel. We were sharing channel space with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Stacey Harkey [02:07:50] So it'd be like, on YouTube, it was like, Mormon Tabernacle, Amazing Grace and a sketch. And eventually it was like, years later, they eventually took off the Amazing Grace video because it had, like, millions of views. Like, people loved it, but they were like, this should be a Studio C channel. So it's starting to grow amongst the LDS population. And then we did a sketch called Scott Sterling, which we were like, we didn't think anything of it. You never know. It's gonna go viral. And it went viral. What was viral? It was about this goalie. They're doing a penalty kick shootout in soccer. This goalie's in.
Stacey Harkey [02:08:24] The goalie keeps getting hit in the face. And no matter what he's doing or where he's going, he keeps getting nailed in the face. And. And we, you know, it's like a simple concept. We weren't expecting too much from people. We're like, it just like, went big. ESPN picked it up.
Stacey Harkey [02:08:38] Shaq tweeted about it or something. Like, all of a sudden, we were getting, like, attention. In Bosnia, they reported that Scott Sterling died. Cause they thought it was real. Like, it was just like, what? And then Studio C kind of started exploding beyond, like, the LDS community. Heavily lds. But all of a sudden, all of a sudden, random people were finding Conan o' Brien was a fan of our sketches, which we were like, what? We had a chance to perform with Kenan from snl, who's like the longest running member. Which was how.
John Dehlin [02:09:08] What was that?
Stacey Harkey [02:09:08] Wild.
John Dehlin [02:09:09] Tell that story.
Stacey Harkey [02:09:09] It was honestly our last Studio C show. We did it in New York, and Kenan came on as a guest, and he's just. He's like a really nice guy. He got us all, like, tickets to go to snl. We were, like, backstage and watching snl, we were like, this is crazy. We're like, you know, we love sketch comedy. It's what we do. So we're Were like, this is wild. Like, what?
Stacey Harkey [02:09:31] But it's just like, we had a lot of really, really cool opportunities. And people sometimes will say they're like, how dare you ride the lapels of the church's coat and then turn your back on the church? How dare you? And I get how people can feel like that. But the thing is, like, could you imagine how damaging that would be to. If I would have, like, been dishonest with myself about my views and my beliefs to make something feel good or look good? Like, that's not going to help anybody. That's just going to hurt people. And I hope people know that, like, we are human beings who have beliefs and feelings, and we're trying to figure life out.
Stacey Harkey [02:10:13] And so as we navigate this, maybe don't think of us as, like, these, like, money hungry. Like, oh, we're gonna. We're gonna make a sketch show for Jesus and then turn our back on Jesus. Like, we're just people trying to figure life out. And so where you feel like there might have been some strategic play, we're literally just trying to just figure out life. You know what I mean?
Stacey Harkey [02:10:34] We're just doing our best with what we have. You know what I mean? And, you know, I might look back one day and be like, dang it, Stacey, that wasn't right. And I will course correct. Or I might look back and be like, I don't know. You just never know what the future holds. Holds. So, like, let's. Let's give each other some grace and patience. We're doing our best. I feel like that when people sometimes look at people in the church and they're like, how dare you? And I'm like, first off, I'm always like, we were all there. Like, come on. If, like, we were there.
Stacey Harkey [02:11:01] Like, if you could just have some grace for people. And second, people have different experiences and they're doing their best with what they have as we are. And just because we're living in a different way doesn't be. We have the answers and vice versa. We're just trying our best, you know,
John Dehlin [02:11:17] I'll have Julia include this in the show notes. Maybe. Can you think of three skits you were in that were some of your favorites or were some of the ones that were biggest? Are Studio C videos still available?
Stacey Harkey [02:11:29] They're still on YouTube.
John Dehlin [02:11:29] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [02:11:30] I was literally just thinking about that because I was going through and I was like, I think there were some sketches where you could see. I was like, I wrote that the gays, like, kind of leaking out a bit. Little bit. Let's see. Oh, man, that's tough. There's so many. Oh, there was one I wrote called Sassy Secretaries where I think that's what they called it. They name it something else sometimes. And it's just me and Natalie being these like super passive aggressive sassy secretaries. And I was just a good time. It's just fun, right?
John Dehlin [02:11:57] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:11:57] Like goofing off with your friends. There's another one I wrote called like, it's like the PDA Cop. It's this cop that's super anti pda. I think that was like closeted Stacey coming out where it's like, if I can't hold hands, no one can. But that was just a good time. That was fun. Let's see, what's one more. Oh, my gosh.
John Dehlin [02:12:16] Are there some you're most known for when you people see you?
Stacey Harkey [02:12:19] Let's see. Maybe some of the most known for would be like the crayon sketch where all the crayons are like singing. And one the black crayons, like super depressed. The black color crayon. I was the brown crayon.
Gerardo Sumano [02:12:31] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [02:12:32] Just so we make sure we distinguish. I think my. Actually it's like a fun style stinger at the end because my friend wrote it and he was like, what do you think of this? And I was like, I love it because at the very end I walk in and I'm like coming in as the skin color crayon and the crayon is not the same color as my skin. And I'm like, can we just point this out? We were surprised BYUTV let us get away with that one. Yeah. We were like, the commentary though, of like, skin color crayon is only one color. Like, wow, gross. I think that might be one of the bigger ones I'd pop in. But there's a lot of. There's like over a thousand.
John Dehlin [02:13:07] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:13:07] And they're all just stupid. Like, they're all just like goofy. Like, just having a good time with my buddies.
John Dehlin [02:13:13] Were there any that were controversial and. Or that had to be taken down?
Stacey Harkey [02:13:18] Oh, yeah. We've been making comedy for 10 years. And comedy, not everything ages. Well, you know, and that's another thing too is like, once again, people, we have this tendency to like, dig up something from 10 years ago and being like, look how disgusting this person is. And it's like, listen, if we all. Can you imagine having social media. Yeah. Or especially if it's like old, you know, but can you imagine having social media as a teen and like people being Able to find what John or Stacey thought in my high school. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I'm like, we will all be canceled.
John Dehlin [02:13:53] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:13:53] So I'm always like. And just it for grace. We did one where. I shouldn't say this. We did one called. Oh, this was one. We did one called Putin on the Ritz. And it's like Vladimir Putin's, like, Christmas album, where it's like that, you know, when you wake up.
John Dehlin [02:14:07] Was it on the song Putting on the Ritz? But.
Stacey Harkey [02:14:08] Yeah, but it was like. It was just playing on the idea of Putin coming out with music. And it was like, you know when you wake up at 3am and you're like, the TV's on, and it's just like someone going through the songs on an album. You know, it was like that stuff aisle, and. But we got a mission president in Russia reached out, and he was like, putin does not like that. Pull it down. It's gonna hurt the work. So they made us take it down. We did one called yeah, because we were kind of giving Putin a hard time. We did one called Putin would have
John Dehlin [02:14:36] seen that and told someone that he didn't like it.
Stacey Harkey [02:14:39] I'm imagining maybe some mission president saw it was just like, listen, okay, the missionaries are already getting beat up here. Like, we can't make it works for them. But I don't know. But we did. There was one called Juan from Cabo, where it's like one of the cast members plays, like, a Mexican dude and has, like, a big sombrero. And while we didn't, I was like. I actually brought it up. I was like, we should be careful about how we go about this.
Stacey Harkey [02:15:06] We didn't darken skin or anything. But just the fact of dressing up like him was appropriation. And so we ended up pulling that. And it's always helpful. Some people were like, hey, this is kind of weird. And we were like, they might be onto something, but it was actually, like, years later. There are homophobic sketches. We have sketches I wrote that. I'm like, oh, this is funny. And then I look back and I'm like, this is misogynistic. Or it's like, this is, like, homophobic.
John Dehlin [02:15:29] Like, how so?
Stacey Harkey [02:15:31] In the sense of, like. It's like the way it portrays what it means to be gays in a way that is, like, mocking or even, like, the language. I don't know if this one's homophobic, but I was glad I wrote this one. It's called. Have you ever seen that show Scared Story Straight? Where they, like, they bring these delinquent teens into prisons and the prisoners are like, it's hard. You don't know.
Stacey Harkey [02:15:50] I did it. I wanted to do a version where they were like gay and scared straight, but I don't think that would have fly, would have flown. But we ended up making the characters, the main guys, these guys that were going on like a service project to read to kittens and they accidentally get on the bus to scared straight program where they had to intimidate these like hardened kids kids. And they're very fruity. They're very. It's queer coded.
Stacey Harkey [02:16:14] But yeah, now in my company, because we could never do anything with queer students or queer students, queer people at BYUtv because we couldn't acknowledge the existence. But right now in JK Studios we have like gay characters and bi characters. And it's really cool to be able to like merely represent an actual part of the population.
Stacey Harkey [02:16:34] Like people are like indoctrination and we're like reality. Like that's like saying we can't talk about black people because what if, what if, what if white kids want to be black now? It's like that's just. They just. We exist. It's out there.
John Dehlin [02:16:45] Yeah. So what? So, you know, for those who've never been more and never been Mormon, there's this term correlation, which there's an actual department within the Mormon Church that makes sure all the curriculum, all the teachings, all the media conform with doctrine and policy and theology and frankly, frankly, don't embarrass the church. So I'm wondering, you know, were there ever like skits about Joseph Smith or skits about Angel Moroni or the Book of Mormon or, or. Or modern day Mormon prophets? Did you ever want to do skits satirizing aspects of Mormon culture and if so, or there rules that just never let you even get. Oh, close to that.
Stacey Harkey [02:17:28] We never really. We always wanted Studio C in like JK Studios to feel like. We wanted to feel really inclusive so like anyone could watch it and have a good time with it. So we actually stayed away from like anything Mormon specific. But there were times every now and then we would do something where it's like the Mormons can maybe get this in a different way.
Stacey Harkey [02:17:48] So we never really ran into that issue. And working doing comedy, sketch comedy at byu, we were already really familiar with like the lines we wanted to follow. And so it never really was like a shift of like, we gotta tone in. But there were times though, cause they did not know, like going from Fonz and Porter's Quilting and, like, Scripture roundtable to a sketch comedy show. They were like, we don't know how to interact with you all, where to put you, what to do. So there was a lot of growing pains for everybody as the station itself was like, okay, do we need to see every sketch?
Stacey Harkey [02:18:22] Or how do we regulate? And there were things like, as we. The longer we worked there, we were like, okay, this can change and this can happen. But. But that was. It's still like, I think a tough thing sometimes to be like, where do we put y'? All? Like, what? And in fact, it changed a lot of the direction for the station where BYD started trying being like, maybe we should have more secular entertainment that teaches good values. But, like, stuff that's like, oh, more shows just besides, you know, like, reading scriptures with friends, which some people really love, you know? So that was. That was kind of fun.
Stacey Harkey [02:18:54] But we never really had any. Like, there were no scandals with propriety and stuff. There was one sketch that someone wanted to pull, and I'm surprised it's still up. And drag is so, like, politicized now. I have been in drag so many times for Jesus, for the BYUtv station.
Stacey Harkey [02:19:16] Prophets have seen me in drag, which I love. But one of the parts that's interesting, there's a sketch we did called Barbs and Rhonda. And it's just me and this other guy in the. In full drag trying so hard to be as real to these female characters as we can. And it almost got pulled, but I think. Cause one guy didn't like it who was one of the higher ups. And we were like, okay, so, like, why? And I think the more he thought about it, he was like, I don't have a good reason. And so we, like, left it up. But, yeah, go look up Barbs and Rhonda, and you'll be like, yeah, you would get canceled.
John Dehlin [02:19:54] So Julia will for sure include a link to that. And I hope it doesn't get taken down once people know we talked about it could happen.
Stacey Harkey [02:20:02] There's a million sketches up there.
John Dehlin [02:20:04] So Internet people download that video now so that there are copies of it before it gets taken down.
Stacey Harkey [02:20:10] Good old Barbs and Rhonda.
Leaving Studio C, Starting JK Studios, and Moving Forward
John Dehlin [02:20:13] So what led to Studio C being shut down? Oh, and did it have anything to do with you coming out and the ticking time bomb of your sexuality?
Stacey Harkey [02:20:26] I don't think so. So I came out so Studio C. We left in September of 2018. And I came out in December of 2018. The timing was so great for me, and I'm not the only queer person in that was in Studio C. One of my best friends, Adam is also. And it was really fun coming out to him, but like, it was cool that we've had some of these shares, shared experiences. We didn't come out to each other until after. After Studio C ended, which is wild.
John Dehlin [02:20:53] Wait, were you were there years you were in Studio C where you had graduated but were now full time? Was it ever full time employment for people?
Stacey Harkey [02:21:02] Yeah, so I graduate. So I. Studio C started in like 2011 and I was like on as a student, but I was working like eight plus hour days.
John Dehlin [02:21:12] Right.
Stacey Harkey [02:21:12] Depending on what. So I was like, there were like loopholes for like, oh, so we can pay him less. But also he's just, you know, whatever. I look back now and I'm like, dang it.
John Dehlin [02:21:22] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:21:22] But I think there was some restrictions too with being a student at byu and they were like, we can't just pay him as a full time employee without like so much red tape anyways.
John Dehlin [02:21:30] Right.
Stacey Harkey [02:21:31] So we start that in 2011. 12. I graduate college in 2014. Oh, and then after that I get hired as a full time employee. So from 2014 to 2018, I was full time working for BYUtv.
John Dehlin [02:21:43] Whoa. Which means you were an employee of the church.
Stacey Harkey [02:21:45] For a employee of the church reporting for duty.
John Dehlin [02:21:48] Wow.
Stacey Harkey [02:21:50] Yeah. So.
John Dehlin [02:21:51] So that means it was a profitable enough endeavor in terms of money the church brought in that they were willing or PR or goodwill that they were willing to invest significant money in.
Stacey Harkey [02:22:02] That's actually the tricky thing about BYUTV is that it is a nonprofit and so they're not motivated in the same sense. I do think, for what good. I think I remember hearing people talk about for what good it's doing for like exposing the church to more people. They were like, we love this because people love the show and then they find out about the church or it's like, also it was like giving like space to people who maybe didn't feel very recognized in church where it's like now the youth are like, oh, this is like a fun show we could watch with our parents and we like are all enjoying it.
Stacey Harkey [02:22:39] But I think it had enough benefits as far as like, for. I think it had more benefits than anything else. It was like the number one show for quite some time. I don't know if it still is because it's still going, right?
Stacey Harkey [02:22:51] It's gone. So after we left, they brought in a new cast. We brought in a couple cast members. We tried to get them to bring in more because we were like, we're not gonna be here forever. And they were like, no, no, no, whatever. And then when we left, they were like, how dare you? And we were like, we tried.
John Dehlin [02:23:03] Oh, so you left?
Stacey Harkey [02:23:05] Yeah, we left Studio C. So we decided to start our own thing because we wanted to make more content. We. We wanted to do more than sketches. We wanted to do show series, commercials. Yeah. Like, all these other things. And we've made two seasons of two shows, which is really exciting. We have a movie coming out July 19th. Wow. So it might be already out, but called Go west, and it's, like, coming out in theaters. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:28] Feature length.
Stacey Harkey [02:23:28] Yeah, feature length. It's Monty Python of the Oregon Trail. It is kind of like this little love letter to our Utah roots a little bit.
John Dehlin [02:23:35] And JK Studios produces.
Stacey Harkey [02:23:37] JK Studios. We rewrote it, and we hired a production company to produce it, but under the JK umbrella, it's like our movie. And we're.
Gerardo Sumano [02:23:45] That's cool.
Stacey Harkey [02:23:45] It's our first company movie. And it's exciting to look back at this group of college kids goofing off for fun to, like, we just have a movie coming out. It's wild.
John Dehlin [02:23:54] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [02:23:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:23:56] So JK Studios, how many people left with you? Who left with you to start?
Stacey Harkey [02:24:01] All the original cast members left together.
John Dehlin [02:24:03] All of them.
Stacey Harkey [02:24:03] So all 10 of us, we had a couple. Brought a couple more people in who are. I think some of them are still there now, but, like, all 10 of us, we just, like, really love working together, and we really love each other. And we left together. Yeah. So we started JK together.
John Dehlin [02:24:17] That must have been really hard for the BYU church employees that were shepherds of the show to just have everyone leave at once.
Stacey Harkey [02:24:27] And we had outlasted a lot of people. Like one of the guys that. Jared Shores is one of the original producers of the show, who was one of the forces of getting it, like, making it happen. He had already been out of BYUTV for a minute, and some people were pretty upset, but, like, yeah, we were really, really trying hard to communicate our needs and our expectations. And we were like, I feel like a lot of times it was just like, okay, okay, Right.
Stacey Harkey [02:24:57] Okay, you're gonna do your thing. We were like, let's make shows we want to make. We want to make sitcoms. We want to make more. And they were like, no, here you just make sketches. So we were like, okay, well, we respect that. And if we want to, you know, if we got mom and Dad's house, we gotta live by their rules. And if we want to do our own thing, we gotta go elsewhere. And it was almost like they didn't believe us and they were very offended when we did leave. But we were like, we really tried to communicate it.
John Dehlin [02:25:20] Well, I didn't know that. I guess I'm sketchy on the history, but. But as I think about it, that's a real risk to financially, to leave full time jobs as artists, as creative artists.
Stacey Harkey [02:25:33] And listen, those like benefits of like BYU TV are good.
John Dehlin [02:25:37] Like health insurance.
Stacey Harkey [02:25:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:25:38] 401K.
Stacey Harkey [02:25:39] So good. Like, yeah. So it's like sometimes you're like, oh, BYU may not be as like paying as much as, you know, some of these other universities, but like benefits out the wazoo. It was really tough in a lot of ways. You know what I mean? It was scary. And even though we've been gone for five years. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Feels like longer. It's still scary, you know, but that's just, I think that's part of the risk of owning your own company.
Gerardo Sumano [02:26:04] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:26:05] You know.
John Dehlin [02:26:06] So are you like a employee of JK Studios?
Stacey Harkey [02:26:09] Yeah, I own, I own, I'm part owner in JK Studios and I, and I am, I CMO for the company. So I handle the marketing, which is npr, which is what I studied.
John Dehlin [02:26:17] Oh.
Stacey Harkey [02:26:18] Which is cool. Cool. And then I'm also one of the writers and actors, so I wear a lot of hats. I really like it.
John Dehlin [02:26:24] Amazing.
Stacey Harkey [02:26:24] Yeah. So this movie stuff is like stressing me out, but in like the best way. We just want it to go well.
John Dehlin [02:26:31] And so are y' all more about making your own content or about sort of selling your services to people that need creative services?
Stacey Harkey [02:26:40] Making our own content.
John Dehlin [02:26:41] Oh really? And trying to monetize that.
Stacey Harkey [02:26:44] So we've, we've done like ads and we've done other things because those are, those help pay the bills. Right. But we are in the business and it's kind of. We're at a cool company point too where like everyone has all these other things they do. Like I do a lot of things. And then we greenlight. When we greenlight a project, it's like everyone, if they can, drops, whatever and we're like on this project. Cause like when it comes to film and making stuff like this, like movies and sitcoms, it's like the time demand really oscillates. It's like when we're making this movie, it's like every day for like a month is like 12 hour days.
Stacey Harkey [02:27:17] We're like filming in the frigid canyon in the snow. It's Exhausting a huge group of people. But like it just comes and goes, you know, it's like the time demand. So yeah, I own this company with my buddies, which is crazy. And we're making content and we've been working together for over a decade and we like each other still.
John Dehlin [02:27:40] Yeah, that's super cool. I just didn't know that.
Stacey Harkey [02:27:42] It's really rare and I feel very, once again incredibly privileged to have a tight knit group of friends that I work together who I trust and who respect and trust me. I was like, that's really cool.
John Dehlin [02:27:52] So the main ways you distribute, is it just through YouTube channel of your own? Is it through?
Stacey Harkey [02:27:57] No, it depends on the project. So with some of our sitcoms we've done. What do we call that? It's essentially like, it's like product placements. Essentially. We have a company that sponsors it and then we like weave their product into it. Cause we're the writers. So we weave their product into it. And so we have like different sponsors on some of those things. They get a lot of exposure. We get the money to make things with the movie. We have investors and then we're. It's going to theaters and so we're gonna be selling tickets and stuff and people are gonna come see it.
John Dehlin [02:28:28] But the TV show, where can people watch it?
Stacey Harkey [02:28:30] You can watch, you can actually watch them. One of them's on Angel Studios. So we've distributed through Angel. One of them is with. On YouTube. You can find a couple of them on YouTube. Most of our stuff is on YouTube.
Gerardo Sumano [02:28:43] Are Angel Studios help LDS?
Stacey Harkey [02:28:45] I think some people that work there are. They're like based here, but they're coming Freedom guys.
Gerardo Sumano [02:28:50] Yeah, yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:28:51] They're not an LDS company though. And so like a lot of their employees aren't, but I think a lot are VidAngel people.
John Dehlin [02:28:58] Okay.
Stacey Harkey [02:28:59] VidAngel Angel Studios. Yeah. Okay. So we've done some stuff with them. We've worked with like Purple. We've worked with the mattress company. Yeah, the mattress company. Freshly picked. And then we've worked with like Harmon Brothers, which is like another distributor out here. And then we've worked, we've worked with like a bunch of different companies and it's, it's just been like a good time and we're just like constantly figuring out things and pivoting and having fun.
John Dehlin [02:29:24] That's awesome.
Stacey Harkey [02:29:24] Doing anything. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:29:25] And you do, do you want to shout out to a YouTube channel or Instagram?
Stacey Harkey [02:29:28] Yeah. Look, if you ever want to see what we're doing or if you were like A fan of Studio c. Look up JK Studios. Okay. So especially on YouTube, you'll get a taste of what we're doing. We have have our trailers up there for the movie.
John Dehlin [02:29:38] Nice.
Stacey Harkey [02:29:39] You could follow us on Instagram, but YouTube is probably one of the best ways.
Gerardo Sumano [02:29:43] How long ago did you guys work for Purple?
Stacey Harkey [02:29:45] Oh, we did. We teamed up with Purple. They were clients, man. It was like a couple years ago.
Gerardo Sumano [02:29:52] Okay. It just seemed that a couple years ago, it seemed like all these Utah companies were. All their ads were comedy sketches.
Stacey Harkey [02:30:00] Yeah.
Gerardo Sumano [02:30:00] Was it you guys?
Stacey Harkey [02:30:01] There was like. So some more people, like, wrote on those ads. Some, like, with jk, some without. So, like, Mallory was like one of the faces of the Purple ad for a while.
Gerardo Sumano [02:30:09] Yeah. But you guys probably started that kind of trend or were part of it.
Stacey Harkey [02:30:13] We were probably part of it. I think one of my friends, like, someone. I think the Orebrush guys, a long time ago, started that trend of, like, comedic, long, entertaining ads.
Gerardo Sumano [02:30:22] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:30:23] And we, like, fit in that world really naturally, because we write.
John Dehlin [02:30:25] They've been running those at, like, movie theaters in Utah forever. Like, funny commercial before movies roll in movie theaters. Right.
Stacey Harkey [02:30:34] There's just, like, innovating. There's a lot of innovation happening out here. Utah's, like, at the forefront of a lot of tech stuff too, which is kind of wild. Think about. But, like, it is. It's a good place to, you know, mix it up.
John Dehlin [02:30:46] Yeah. All right, well, let's transition now to kind of reconstruction. If it's all right, let's go. And that'll. I think that'll be a good way to kind of end or. But I want to. You know, I guess the first place I want to start is you talked about praying for years to heavenly Father to make you not gay and to give you a superpower to make you
Processing Anger and Reprogramming After Mormonism
Stacey Harkey [02:31:08] a mutant or a. I should have never said that one.
John Dehlin [02:31:11] No, I love it. I love it because I think you do have a superpower. And here's. I think he gave you your wish.
Stacey Harkey [02:31:16] He gave me that one.
John Dehlin [02:31:17] And I wonder. And maybe you can correct me because it's just the impression I'm to going getting. The impression I'm getting is that you're the only gay ex Mormon I've ever met. That skipped the anger face.
Stacey Harkey [02:31:29] Oh, man.
John Dehlin [02:31:31] Kind of like the burn it all down, destroy it all and all. And I like. You're laughing. I.
Stacey Harkey [02:31:39] And I say it.
John Dehlin [02:31:40] I can't wait to hear why you're laughing. But I'll make it. I'll make it serious for just a Second, like, you know, know when I started learning about the deaths by suicide, kind of like the suicide epidemic, and this was literally 2005.
John Dehlin [02:31:55] I'm starting to read about the Deseret. Deseret News Publishing, huh. Suicide rates are higher than normal across the United States and huh, a pretty large percentage of them happen to be people with same sex attraction. Like I'm reading this stuff in 2005, 2000, 2006. I'm starting my PhD in 2009 and by 2010-11 I'm doing research on LGBTQ Mormons because I'm like fully tuned into the suicide epidemic. Not to mention the celibacy, you know, disasters and the mixed, you know, the massive prevalence of failed and miserable mixed orientation marriages within Mormonism. Like, I'm seeing decades of carnage and like year after year after year, it's bubbling within me.
John Dehlin [02:32:45] The church is, the Mormon Church is not just hurting a lot of people. You could make the case it's killing a lot of people and wrecking a lot of families. So like, I couldn't help but get angry at some point. And it was that anger. I tried to channel it in research and in activism, but ultimately that got excommunicated because I, like, I couldn't hold it in.
Stacey Harkey [02:33:09] Right, yeah. You're supposed to like keep quiet or something or like.
John Dehlin [02:33:12] Right.
Stacey Harkey [02:33:12] What are you supposed to do?
John Dehlin [02:33:13] And I'm not even gay. Like, you know, so like, so like of course when I meet ex Mormons and. Or gay ex Mormons who didn't do what you did, who. They went, they got into marriages that they.
Stacey Harkey [02:33:28] Oh, mercy.
John Dehlin [02:33:29] You know, they, they did. They were obedient to the bishop that told them to get married, married, had kids, marriage exploded catastrophically. Or they lived until their 40th or 50th year as celibates and became what they would describe as shells of men or women. Right. Or they took their own lives or they had friends that didn't make it. I'm going to say not only is anger a healthy emotion, it's necessary, but if there's a place for it, it is within this domain. Having said all that, like, it almost what I just did is introduce the idea that you skipped the anger phase. Now you laughed.
Stacey Harkey [02:34:13] That's so funny.
John Dehlin [02:34:14] Maybe I got that wrong.
Stacey Harkey [02:34:15] No, no, no. I'm just thinking of like, there are some very, very like, angry people out there for good reason. Right. And I think that's a very necessary part of processing. And I, I do like, I guess depending on how you want to phrase the anger, Phase. I just. Yeah, I don't feel like I really necessarily had an anger phase. I do get angry, and I do get, like, really passionate. That's why I do work in these spaces, right. Is because I.
John Dehlin [02:34:45] The DEI stuff.
Stacey Harkey [02:34:46] Yeah. It's because I refuse. And I work with, like, I'm a. I mean, I do, like, nonprofit consulting. I've done some stuff with Encircle, and I do a lot of work with Equality Utah. They met me speaking at a reality or out of reality at a Black Lives Matter queer rally in Salt Lake. Because I'm involved in these spaces, right?
Stacey Harkey [02:35:06] And I say that sometimes because I've had people that were like, corner me, and they'll be like, you. They'll be like, you're just not. You don't know what it's like. You're not angry. And I'm like, yes, Tell the gay black dude that he doesn't know what it's like to feel different or to be treated like some, like, monster for something he can't control.
Stacey Harkey [02:35:23] Like, I don't know. And maybe in some cases, like, it's really hard to compare experiences. Maybe I have. I haven't. I have. But I think anger is, like, a very, very, very beautiful and necessary emotion. I think about this example one time where we were. Me and some buddies were on a plane. We were actually flying to New York for a studio C show. And we synced our movies up on the back of these chairs to watch a movie together. And my one buddy, he's a big guy, was, like. He had a tray table down, was having a good laugh, was, like, hitting the tray table, rocking.
Stacey Harkey [02:35:57] We were living our best life. And then this lady in front of them turns around and she's like, stop hitting my tray table. She just, like, zero to 60. We didn't even realize she was there. And as he hit the tray table, he was, like, rocking her chair because it's connected to the chair in front.
Stacey Harkey [02:36:13] And I remember thinking on that experience, and I was like, thank goodness she got angry, because she might have just endured that pain the whole dang flight. Luckily, her anger was a motivator that enabled her to make something happen. And while I think we were all like, whoa, snappy. I remember being like, she's not wrong. Like, right?
Stacey Harkey [02:36:34] And I think about that in, like, your situation, too. Like, hopefully, like, that anger was like, a motivator to remove the pain or to find out a solution. And then as we uncover more, we're like, this is deeper and this is tragic. Right? But in my situation, I think that, like, and some of those times when I get angry, I want to do the same where I'm like, what do we. What can I do? Because I can be mad and I can stew and literally nothing will change. We can be angry and teach seminars to people, and maybe nothing will change.
John Dehlin [02:37:08] Maybe we'll make them defensive and make it worse.
Stacey Harkey [02:37:11] But what I do in some of these spaces, and this is what I do with Equality Utah, is we purposefully go to spaces where people are like, we were at a Republican National Convention thing the other day with a booth talking about trans kids. And that's. That was kind of scary. But the thing is, like, you're never gonna get people to change by antagonizing them. You are not going to get people to change by antagonizing them. And it's one thing to talk to someone who is only hurting you, whose only goal is to hurt you, but that is not what we're dealing with when it comes to religion or beliefs.
Stacey Harkey [02:37:49] Right. You have people who are trying to do what they feel is right. They're. They're following what is their moral compass. And you know what? I'm going to be straight up. My mom, the church saved her life. It has been so good in her life. If the church did not exist, my mother's life would be in shambles. I am so confident of that. It saved her and as a result, brought a lot of good to my life. Right, Right. But I can also look at that and say some of the doctrine. Some of these teachings has, in fact, been a catalyst for the suicide endemic, especially amongst queer kids.
Stacey Harkey [02:38:25] And I think I can hold those two things and live in this nuance and say, this can do good. This can hurt people just like us. Right? We can. Like, you know, you look at someone who's, like, on death row, and I can guarantee you there are people that love that person and that they love and that they've done good in their life. Right. I'm just saying, like, it's just the nuance is so important.
Stacey Harkey [02:38:49] And I also think when it comes to making change, this is a very church thing. But you lift where you stand. We need people picketing on the front lines. We need people being ambassadors, having more, like, strategic conversations.
Stacey Harkey [02:39:05] We need it all. We need the Rosa Parks, the Martin Luther Kings, the Malcolm X's. We need these people that satisfy the different roles. And so that's another thing is when people are like, you're not doing it. Like, I want you to do it. It's like, well, you do your thing, you know, let me do my thing. You do your thing. If I'm hurting someone, let me know. I feel like I hear people say that against Ben Shilati and Charlie Bird. And honestly, I think anger sometimes is like electricity. It takes the pathway of least resistance. It's like, if you're mad at the church, don't come for someone who's trying to do good at it. Like, you know, maybe you're justified at being bothered, but.
John Dehlin [02:39:37] But.
Stacey Harkey [02:39:39] And it just, like, depends on what you're trying to do. Are you trying to get them to adjust, adapt, or are you just trying to express your hurt? Both are valid, but both you will go about in different ways and have different outcomes. So if I go to these DEI spaces and I'm talking to, you know, we did a training with the police department in Utah, State troopers, right. Needs do a lot of work there to help increase the relationship with people of color.
Stacey Harkey [02:40:06] And if I showed up and I was like, look here, you pigs. Immediate, immediate walls. Nothing's changing, I might have done something good for myself in expressing and processing anger and hurt. But, like, literally not gonna change the situation. Make it worse, It'll make it worse. And I think these situations depend. I'm not saying this is how you gotta navigate any situation, but we go in these spaces and we try to really, really, really hold the nuance of humanity of these people. Of, like, these are people who are loved, love others who are really trying their best. For the most part, I don't think someone is in there just to wreak havoc.
Stacey Harkey [02:40:40] And if they are, I'm not gonna help them anyways. Right. Like, that's out of my purview. But it really, really, really, really comes to me, comes back to, like, effectiveness for me. And I remember sitting with my buddy and being like, how do we make positive change? And yes, I've been angry and I have, like, I've had good friends sitting through incredible tirades, me yelling all sorts of words.
John Dehlin [02:41:02] Right.
Stacey Harkey [02:41:03] But I also really want to be effective. You know, I don't know. That sounds really preachy. And at the end of the day, I have. I am not here to judge how other people are doing things. I'm here to, like, analyze how I'm going about it. I will, though, say, if you want to make a change, look at your methods. Like, look at the results. If you're. If your goal is to make positive change, maybe leading with anger may not always do it, but maybe it will. I don't know. Depends on what you're trying to do. Be strategic about it. I don't know.
Gerardo Sumano [02:41:36] Makes sense.
Stacey Harkey [02:41:38] It's kind of hard sometimes because sometimes I do have moments where I have to tap out and be like, I'm gonna go be mad. I'm gonna go rage. And I'm not gonna do that here because that ain't gonna help anybody. Right. But. But, yeah, I don't know.
John Dehlin [02:41:53] That's powerful. Thank you. Okay, next part around reconstruction.
Stacey Harkey [02:42:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:42:03] So. And, you know, sometimes I almost always ask questions about sexuality. And every once in a while, I get commenters who are like, john, you're obsessed with sex.
Stacey Harkey [02:42:13] I'm just, join the party. I love it too.
John Dehlin [02:42:17] I'm just respond to them directly and just say, there's a difference between being sex positive and being obsessed or being creepy and. Or obsessed with sex. Right.
Stacey Harkey [02:42:29] Yeah. I didn't even think about the creepy aspect.
John Dehlin [02:42:31] No. Yeah. Well, I mean, but. But I just. I always want to operate in the spirit of being educational and sex positive. And the sex is part of the human experience.
Stacey Harkey [02:42:42] We have to talk about it. It's a normal. It's a part of health. It's one of the rings of health. Sexual health is important. It's part of your maturity now. You progress. Like, sometimes when people have concerns like that, I'm like, you might need to do a little soul searching on why that bothers you.
John Dehlin [02:42:55] Yeah.
Stacey Harkey [02:42:55] It might be something you need to figure out here.
John Dehlin [02:42:58] Totally. So the first question I have is if. If, you know, just like with women who are like, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. Mormon women. And all of a sudden they get married and it's like, go have sex. Sex. The decades of conditioning can really take sometimes years, if not decades to reprogram. So you're taught from the time you're, you know, born that being gay is wrong.
Stacey Harkey [02:43:26] Right.
John Dehlin [02:43:27] And that not only is premarital sex wrong, not sex, not in a legal marriage is wrong, but then gay sex in Mormonism can be. Has been compared to bestiality or pedophilia.
Stacey Harkey [02:43:40] It's worse than murder.
John Dehlin [02:43:41] Right? Worse than murder. Literally. He's not exaggerating. So, like, as we talk about reconstruction.
Stacey Harkey [02:43:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:43:48] How did you have you process that to kind of reprogram yourself?
Stacey Harkey [02:43:53] That's a really good question.
John Dehlin [02:43:54] Or has that even been an issue for you? Or was it just like, oh, I'm good now?
Stacey Harkey [02:43:58] No, I feel like. And actually, I feel like there's a lot of, like, talked about my process of, like, the chrysalis, like, going in that cocoon where I felt like, that was actually really, really nice. Because what I worked through first was, like, shame and my beliefs. So I wasn't in this situation where I did something and then had to be like, holy crap, I hate myself. This is the worst.
Stacey Harkey [02:44:20] It was like I figured out what for the most. Excuse me. I figured out for the most part, like, where my parameters were, and then I had experiences. And so I think that helped a lot with, like, how I framed some of these things. And also, I moved at my own pace. I moved so I don't even know if. I don't even care if it's slow or fast. I just moved at a pace that was comfortable for me. So whether it was, like, intimacy with another man. I remember the first time I kissed a guy, and it was like, it took a time to get there.
Stacey Harkey [02:44:52] And I was like, that's okay. One guy went in at a date once, and I swerved, I swooped. I didn't even have responsibility. You gotta look out for you. I wasn't ready. But I remember the first time I kissed a guy. It was just like.
Stacey Harkey [02:45:04] It was like the most magical experience. I was like. After that, I was like, I get what straight people have been writing songs about for decades. I was like. Or for. Since the dawn of man. I was like, I get it. I get was just like, eye opening and wonderful. And I think part of that came from me taking things at my own pace.
Stacey Harkey [02:45:26] And if someone didn't respect my pace, it was like a huge red flag. If someone's like, you're. You're not moving fast enough, I'd be like, next. We're not. We're not compatible anyways. If that's your vibe, if you can't. You know what I mean? It's like, take that unhealthiness elsewhere. But, yeah, I just moved at my own pace, and I think that's okay. And I felt really healthy for me. I can't imagine what situation that wouldn't work. But to answer your question, yeah, I didn't. If I didn't feel good, I didn't do anything. It is essentially how I put it. So the whole, like, I'm gonna feel shame, I just wouldn't do that.
Stacey Harkey [02:46:01] And then if I did do something that I felt bad about it, I just wouldn't do it again. You know what I mean? Or at least I would be like, oh, that was a data point. Like, let's adjust, right?
Stacey Harkey [02:46:10] But for me and all. Everything. I don't think I experienced too much of that. And I think part of that was figuring it out before and then taking my time. And.
John Dehlin [02:46:22] Yeah, I don't know if you know this, but. So I did my PhD dissertation on the LGBTQ Mormon experience.
Stacey Harkey [02:46:28] Are you, like, real? Are you, like, he's so unhealthy?
John Dehlin [02:46:30] No, no, I'm loving this. But one of the findings we never published was that, like, 40%, like, 1612 people took this. 22. 1622 people took the survey. Like, 45 reported some sort of spiritual actual affirmation of their LGBTQ identities while they were still Mormon. Like, I was wanting. I was driving to, you know, off myself. And then I prayed one last time, and God told me, I love you just as you are. Like, 40. Like, 45% of the narratives expressed or endorsed some sort of spiritual confirmation that God loved them for who they were.
Stacey Harkey [02:47:12] Were.
John Dehlin [02:47:12] I'm wondering. And by the way, if there's ever a researcher out there who wants to sort of, like, take on that data set, analyze it and write about it, the data is there, like, 44% of 1600. That's a really big N. And I'm sure some really interesting papers and or multiple dissertations could come out of that data. So that's an open invitation if there's a researcher out there who wants to pursue it. But having said that, I wonder if your spiritual confirmation, affirming your sexuality that you experienced made your transition into healthy sexuality easier.
Stacey Harkey [02:47:51] I think so all the time. Like, for sure. I'm glad you said that, because I didn't think about that, but 100%, it just gave me, in so many aspects of my life, like, an unshakable confidence and then the direction I moved. So there wasn't, like, second guess guessing. Right. It wasn't like anyone could say anything and I'd be like, oh, maybe you're right. I was just like, I'm good. And I feel like, honestly, my relationship, like, how I think of God now is so different than how I thought of God back when I was, like, heavily. What'd you say?
John Dehlin [02:48:22] Let's go there. God and Jesus.
Stacey Harkey [02:48:23] Yeah. So, like, I used to think of God as, like. I feel like I had a pretty, like, a positive aspect, but I kind of looked at God as, like, this, like, removed old dude in a cloud, you know, kind of thing, watching me try to walk this trail that he had paved for me.
Stacey Harkey [02:48:43] And when I go off the trail, he's like, let's get back a little bit. Let's get back a little bit. Jesus has got you covered. No man gets you back on the trail. And now, how I view, like, deity and the divine is like this. Like this. Honestly, this thing with me, this sense in me as I pave my own trail, that's just along with me to help me learn these lessons. So I feel like I have this confidence as I navigate my own life versus, like, someone watch, like a ref watching me, like, oh, get back in the lines. We got to blow the whistle, give you a little card.
Stacey Harkey [02:49:14] Get back on the lines. Now. It's like, this is the. God is. God is like the divine. The universe, however you want to think of it, like, wants us to succeed, is with me on this, like, new trail I'm paving. And we're. I'm just having. Having new, fun experiences and getting data points and adjusting and trying to be better every day. Like, it just. It's shifted so much, and a lot of that is like, there's no. Like, there's no more of that idea, at least in my experience of, like, shame, where it's like, you did wrong. It's like, oh, no, we got a data point. Instead of, like, you made a mistake. It's like, we got a data point. Let's adjust accordingly. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [02:49:54] Learning instead of sin, basically.
Stacey Harkey [02:49:55] Yeah, it's like, that's. Yeah, it's like, yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, forget sin. It's like, the point is to have experiences and learn and grow and get better. So part of that is, like, you know, have. Have a new experience, take a risk, push yourself and analyze and make adjustments is, like, kind of how I view it.
Current Spirituality, Faith, and Sense of Self
John Dehlin [02:50:12] Now, how literal is it that there's a, like, an anthropomorphic being in the sky, that there's an actual heaven, and that when we die, we get resurrected and there's an afterlife?
Stacey Harkey [02:50:25] I do feel like they're so, like, honestly. And this is never, like, a conscious choice. I just, like, every now and then when I check in, I'm like, how do I feel? What resonates with me? I don't know if there's, like, an actual being out there. I don't know if there's, like, a physical old dude with a really, really manicured beard. Oh, fingers crossed.
Stacey Harkey [02:50:43] Like, I don't know, right? And I really don't care. But I do feel like there is something bigger than me that wants me to succeed, that cares for me, and whether that's real or not gives me confidence and helps me navigate in a way, motivates me to be a better person. I'm like, why not?
Stacey Harkey [02:51:02] And so whether it's like, A person or the universe or the earth and nature, whatever it is, wants us to succeed. And I'm cool with that. And I like that a lot. I just feel like there's something bigger than me, and I really love that belief.
Stacey Harkey [02:51:18] Something that, like, ties us all together, encourages us all to, like, we're all in the same family, and we, you know, we should be supporting each other more. Like, I like that a lot. I like some of those beliefs, and I still think. I definitely think some of those have been adapted from my LDS upbringing. Like, the concept that we're all siblings and that we have this responsibility to look out for each other.
Stacey Harkey [02:51:39] Even the concept of the atonement, I think, is super beautiful, that someone sacrificed themselves so that we could literally make mistakes, learn and grow. I think that's beautiful, and I think it figures into the way that I'm like, yeah, this life is meant to be lived not to be, like, perfect, but to be lived to be messy and to, like, change and grow. Like, I really like that.
John Dehlin [02:52:02] You know, how do you identify in terms of, like, Christianity? How close do you feel towards. Towards, you know, Jesus as an actual person who lived.
Stacey Harkey [02:52:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:52:15] And. Or as a Christian.
Stacey Harkey [02:52:17] And maybe I developed this in my back, in my day, but I feel like my mindset is like. It's like the Noah's Ark thing. I'm like, it doesn't matter. There are so many things that I'm just like, what? Like, if you believe it, like, power to you. Like, I almost have this thing sometimes where people will be like. Like, I just don't see the value in being skeptical. So if someone's like, God, you know, appeared to me and motivated me to serve a bunch of orphans, I'm like, I have no reason to disbelieve that. Like, you're doing good.
John Dehlin [02:52:50] You're not hurting people or to pick that apart.
Stacey Harkey [02:52:52] Yeah. I just, like, have no desire at all. I'm like, hey, that's important to you. That's important to me because I care about you, you know? So I just, like, honestly, I don't ever sit in, like, pull things apart unless it's, like, my own beliefs. Right. But I'm like. So when I think about. I, like, believe in God. Maybe my idea of God is different than what it used to be, but I'm just like.
Stacey Harkey [02:53:14] Like, it works for me. I don't really worry too much about it. Maybe one day I will, and then it'll. I'll adjust accordingly. And that's. That sounds exciting, actually being like, oh, let's Think through that. Let's process this. But right now I'm like, I consider myself Christian, but I also think there's like all these other elements of. Of like, like Taoism that I love and like, oh, just like Buddhism and then Buddhism and like India, like all these different religions where I'm like, this is all so beautiful. And it's also helpful to becoming a better person. Like, why not? Like, I've. I'm not like walking around like, oh, Buddhism is fake or whatever.
Stacey Harkey [02:53:45] I'm just like, let it all be real. Let it all be fake. It doesn't change my life. It doesn't change how I navigate me, you know? So beautiful.
John Dehlin [02:53:54] Do you think you'll stay in use Utah?
Stacey Harkey [02:53:56] Oh, we'll see. It depends on what happens with work and life and there's any single guys out there.
John Dehlin [02:54:02] Okay, so you are looking for someone. You're looking for people to date, Is
Stacey Harkey [02:54:07] that what you're saying? Busy these days, but like, yeah, you just never know. You know what I mean? But yeah, I'm open to dating. I'm a very, like, that's like the way I navigate my life. I'm very open. So like, I go on dates. No expectations. Sometimes it pans out. Sometimes we become good friends. Sometimes we are mortal enemies. And what a beautiful thing to have the slew of experiences. There haven't been any mortal enemies yet, but I even feel like it's just like life is meant to be lived and you just. It's like, I guess that's Taoism, where it's like, you just be like the water, just like flow with it. You know what I mean? And so come what may.
John Dehlin [02:54:44] So that's Stacey Harkey. S T A C E Y H A R k e y on ist Instagram. Slide into his DMs if you're interested.
Stacey Harkey [02:54:52] They're gonna be like, we know too much about him. There's no way.
John Dehlin [02:54:57] Have you found a church home or do you even look for that?
Stacey Harkey [02:55:00] I actually. That's actually interesting you ask. I do think one of the toughest things about not going to like a LDS chapel is the community. That's something that I missed a lot. But what happened was I started working out a lot. Studio C, they. Okay. So I started working out because they pulled me aside at Studio C and they were like, hey, you're too fat. You need to lose weight. And I was like, I'm on a comedy show. Anyways, it wasn't like a cw, like Arrow, like, everyone needs to be hot, but whatever.
Stacey Harkey [02:55:31] That's a whole nother story about reconstructing how I view my body and myself and self worth. But it's a beautiful going. It's proper. Anyways, the gym has become like a new home for me. It's a place where I interact. I teach fitness classes. I'm a personal trainer.
Stacey Harkey [02:55:46] Where do you. I teach at Provo Rec center and the Springville Rec Center. I used to teach at byu, actually, back in my gay days. And early on, and it was just great, but it was too hard to park there, and so I was like, no more.
Stacey Harkey [02:55:59] It's like a hobby job. So I might teach other places, but just the. It's just the concept of, like, there's a place where I go where I interact with people who I wouldn't normally interact with. Different ages, different walks of life.
Stacey Harkey [02:56:13] Lot of moms love me, some moms, but, like, teens and stuff. Like, all these different people I'm interacting with, and they're in my community, and I feel like I'm very connected, and I feel like I'm doing good for people. And so it's like very. I feel like one day I was like, oh, my gosh. That's, like, replaced what I was missing from. What I felt like I was missing from religion. But I'm also very involved. I get that from my dad. I'm involved with nonprofit queer nonprofits. That's a part of my community. I'm involved with, like, Stonewall sports, which is like. Like queer, like, sports leagues.
Stacey Harkey [02:56:44] It's a huge part of my community. I like work life. Those people are like, some of my best friends. Like, so I. I just stay really involved. I have a pretty good sense of community.
John Dehlin [02:56:54] Nice.
Stacey Harkey [02:56:55] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:56:55] Okay, well, I have a compliment and a question to end. But before I do put an insult in there. Any final questions or anything?
Stacey Harkey [02:57:04] No, no.
Gerardo Sumano [02:57:05] I think this has been great.
John Dehlin [02:57:06] Yeah. Enjoyed it.
Gerardo Sumano [02:57:08] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:57:09] For sure. Excellent.
Stacey Harkey [02:57:11] Well, I told Harado to roast me, and I'm like, maybe he did and I missed it.
Gerardo Sumano [02:57:16] No, I mean, it's been great. I've learned a lot. Lots of good perspectives, for sure.
Stacey Harkey [02:57:23] Okay, well.
Gerardo Sumano [02:57:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:57:24] Thank you. All right, well, here's the compliment. Are you ready?
Stacey Harkey [02:57:29] Okay, I'm ready.
John Dehlin [02:57:31] Once you start trying to learn about diversity, you hear this term intersectionality, and you think, okay, that's a checkbox. You need to. Okay, try and include as many different gender diversity and sexual diversity and racial diversity and age diversity, all the diversities. Try and integrate it when you can. Like a bingo. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [02:57:50] As if it's Just an obligation. And for me, one of the things I've taken away so much from today is how your, your different elements of diversity in your life have helped to create and to shape who you are and who you are as a theme that I've kind of tried to touch on your level of flexibility, of compassion, of the ability to hold paradox and nuance and kind of your resilience and optimism. How could that not come, come from all the different ways that kind of make up who you are? And for me, those exemplary personality traits are really inspiring. And it's inspiring that, that, that they clearly come from all the things that make up you and from your history.
Intersectionality, Authenticity, and Final Reflections
Stacey Harkey [02:58:50] Very flag. That's a lot of boy like, dang, get the tissues out. I, I have thought before about, about the aspect of intersectionality, these like overlapping identities that give me unique perspective. And I actually feel like, for example, being black helps so much with being gay because when I came out and people were like, we don't lock you for something you can't control. I was like, been there, done that. Get in line. Like, I've been black my whole life and guess what? I can't hide that one.
Stacey Harkey [02:59:20] And I think my relationship with religion out here has been really helpful on those fronts of being gay and being black, where it's like, like I have had to develop a sense of self worth and self confidence that is not externally influenced. It does not come from other people's perspective of me because I would have crumbled a long time ago and maybe I did at a certain point and that's why I hit that lowest low and I had to like, find something else. But, and I still, still think that's like a game that I'm working on too. But that stuff is really helpful when it comes to being authentic.
Stacey Harkey [02:59:50] Finding out, like, who, like where your value and worth comes from is so helpful for giving you the confidence to navigate spaces where people are going to be haters.
John Dehlin [03:00:05] That's beautiful. Well, cool. Well then let's end on this because I know you got a role and that's. Let's just say there's someone out there who's questioning their faith or who's a racial minority and experiencing difficulty. There's. Or they're a sexual minority or they're just a human who's. They're a woman or they're trans person or they're just struggling and they're just looking for a reason to believe that things can get better. And they're looking for a reason to hope, break that Fourth wall. And if you don't mind, give them a final message.
Stacey Harkey [03:00:41] I honestly feel like there's a million things, right? A million things. But for me, and in my life, life and in my perspective, working to be authentic goes so far, and I break that down into taking the time to really learn who you are. And for me, that was like facing that I was gay. That was scary. That was terrifying. And authenticity isn't easy because there's risk, right? You lose. You have the chance of losing community and things that you've worked for, but taking that time to learn who you are and then living in a way that reflects that, the external expression of that is going to give you so much as far as your ability to give to others, as far as the belief and confidence you have in yourself.
Stacey Harkey [03:01:28] I think that's gonna do so much, whether it's your sexuality, your identity, your belief system, even, like, the shows you watch and the people you hang out with, I'm like, I think this goes so far.
John Dehlin [03:01:42] Beautiful. All right, well, again, the Instagram is Stacey Harkey. S T A C E Y H A R K E Y The company is JK.
Stacey Harkey [03:01:53] JK Studios.
John Dehlin [03:01:54] JK Studios.
Stacey Harkey [03:01:55] JK.exclamation markstudios.com. yeah, yeah, there's. We have a website, too, but JK Studios on YouTube and any other things
John Dehlin [03:02:03] you want to plug. Stacey does writing, acting, film, tv, movies. He also does personal training. He does diversity and equity. Diversity, equity and inclusion training.
Stacey Harkey [03:02:15] Yeah, training, DEI stuff. It's honestly like, I feel like when I tell people all the things I do, it sounds like I don't have a job. I stay very busy and I love it all. I feel very just. I feel blessed and fortunate. I feel just really privileged, which means I got to do more to make it better for other people. People. You know what I mean?
John Dehlin [03:02:35] Awesome. Well, Stacey Harkey, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. It's been a pleasure.
Stacey Harkey [03:02:39] Thank you.
John Dehlin [03:02:40] Yeah. And Gerardo, as always, thanks for keeping this place going and all the ways that people see and don't see. But also, thanks for being co host today.
Gerardo Sumano [03:02:50] Yeah, thanks, John.
John Dehlin [03:02:51] All right, thanks, Cece, and thanks everyone who joins us today on Mormon Stories. Stay in touch. Thanks for your support and check us out. Please subscribe on YouTube and all TikTok and Instagram. Subscribe everyone, everywhere. Donate and support us if you can. But most importantly, support Stacey and in JK Productions and their good work. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast Take care.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Stacey Harkey, formerly part of the original cast of BYU TV’s Studio C, is known as an actor, writer, personal trainer, and for his involvement with Diversity Equity and Inclusion training and consulting in Equality Utah. Stacey shares his journey as a black and gay convert to the LDS Church. He navigated code-switching between Mormonism and Baptist culture, eventually questioning the Church’s teachings about race. Returning to BYU after serving a mission to Brazil, he finally felt more comfortable and accepting of his identity. Stacey advocates for understanding and nuance, emphasizing that anger is not an effective way to create change. His story of self-discovery and resilience offers hope and inspiration to those facing similar struggles.
Contact Stacey:
- Studio C
- Stacey Harkey – personal trainer
- Stacey Harkey’s – instagram
- Stacey Harkey – Equality Utah
- Stacey Harkey on the Black Menaces podcast
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Show Notes:
Mormon Stories Related
- Studio C
- Stacey Harkey – personal trainer
- Stacey Harkey’s – instagram
- Stacey Harkey – Equality Utah
- Stacey Harkey on the Black Menaces podcast
- The Curse of Cain
- Priesthood ban in the LDS church
- The star Kolob near God
- Mormon and Gay website
- Studio C – face to face
- Evergreen
- North Star
- Exclusion Policy in 2015
- Charlie Bird
- Ben Schellaty
- Scott Sterling video
- Barbs and Rhonda Sketch
- JK! Studios Movie – Go West
- JK! Studios – YouTube
- Encircle
- LGBTQ dissertation – John Dehlin
Mormon Stories Related
One Response
This was really a great interview with Stacey Harkey.
I am a white, straight, life-long
member of the Church.
Thanks so much Stacey for helping me see what a struggle it is to be a minority,
marginalized, person in our
religious community of Latter-day Saints. I can’t begin to articulate my comments as well as you did in this interview. I think Bishops and other leaders play such a big role in giving advice. Compassion and empathy can
have such a positive effect versus a condescending attitude toward one’s lifestyle or tendencies. My mother had cancer a number of years ago and was unable to attended Church for several months while she underwent some intense therapy. Her Temple recommend was expiring during that time and she wanted to keep it current.
The Bishop stated that he wanted her
to come back to Church for
a few weeks before he would consider it. While she was hurt by this, she understood the Bishop was just trying to do the best he could, even though I thought that decision could have been handled more kindly.
I appreciated Stacey’s honesty
and his authenticity of his self worth. The loss of self worth
being dictated by others is what is so dangerous.
Thanks Stacey for helping me see things from your perspective.