Introduction to Ruby Franke's Journal

Julie Louise [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:04] And welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It's April 3, 2024, and today maybe a little bit late from the breaking news. We've had a lot going on here at Mormon Story Studio, but we're here to cover today a little bit about Ruby Frankie's Mormon Journal. And for those of you who have not been paying attention to the Mormon news, Ruby Frankie was a Mormon mom YouTuber who had a YouTube channel called Eight Passengers where she and her husband Kevin and their six kids, you know, gained millions of followers kind of YouTubing their Mormon lives.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] And at some point, people started feeling like Ruby was getting too strict with her kids. And then at some point, people started notifying me that Ruby and Kevin had connected with this therapist, Jody Hildebrandt, and mayhem started happening which culminated in Ruby and Jody being arrested for multiple counts of felony child abuse. They've been in prison for many, many months lately. They've pled guilty and we're just sort of awaiting sentencing. But recently a lot of audio and video and textual evidence was released in, I think, in anticipation for the sentencing, honestly. But there was a flurry of YouTube and podcast content talking about, you know, Kevin's recorded police conversations, about, you know, the camera shot of the police arresting Jody, of the inside of Jody and Ruby's houses, and even police conversations between Rubian people and Jodian people.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Just all sorts of really interesting content that's been released. Today we're going to be focusing specifically on this journal. I think it's about 70 pages, 60 or 70 pages a PDF, a journal that Ruby Franke kept. We're going to talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] And specifically the angle that we like to cover is the Mormon angle. So even the Salt Lake Tribune, even within Mormonism, we feel like, you know, the true crime elements are being covered. The scandalous legal stuff and the police stuff and the gore and the drama's being covered. But nobody seems to want to really dig in to just how Mormon this story actually is. And so I'm super excited today to have with us, of course, Gerardo Sumano, who is in so many ways my right hand man here on Mormon Stories. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:01] Hi, John.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Thanks for joining us.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:03] Yeah, super excited.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] And you're kind of producing this episode, so thanks for helping produce it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:09] Yeah, yeah, for sure. This has been something we've been covering for a while and people seem to be really interested about it. It's fascinating. And so, yeah, I'm pretty excited about it.

John Dehlin [00:03:21] Yeah. We've done many, many past episodes, including we've interviewed twice Jesse Hildebrandt, Jody Hildebrandt's niece, Adam Paul Steed, who was a victim of Jody Hildebrandt, and many, many other episodes. But also we have with us Julie Louise 1975. At least that's how she's known on TikTok. Julie, welcome to Mormon Stories. And for those of our listeners who don't know anything about you, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Julie Louise [00:03:49] Thanks, John, for having me on here. I first have to say that's how I found you was those interviews with Jesse and Adam. And we on TikTok, in our TikTok world, played all of those clips and watched all those clips. It was very insightful to hear from them. But I got started about a year ago on TikTok, and then recently I've just started kind of coming over into the YouTube world a little bit more. Totally new at it, but trying my best. But I cover basically true crime and news of the day, and I've been following the Ruby Frankie situation since it broke last August and went down a huge rabbit hole with that. So I'm so happy to be here with you for this.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] And, and tell us just about a little bit more about your channel and the types of things you cover and, and really what, what is it about your background that made you kind of interested in all this stuff and then specifically kind of the. The Mormon theme stuff. Just tell us a little bit more about you and your channel and, and what you try and do.

Julie Louise [00:04:45] So I kind of have a broad history, I guess, a broad background. I'm a teacher right now. I actually teach, usually grade three. This year I'm doing something different, but I did radio here in my town on the east coast of New Brunswick, Canada, and it was my favorite job I've ever had. I love talking to people and telling stories, and I'm obsessed with true crime and news and celebrity gossip. And so I just started kind of sharing the things I got interested in and built an amazing community. So a lot of things that I cover are. Are just the true crime situations that happen up today, like the Gypsy Rose and Ruby Frankies of the world, and just kind of got really into that as well as sharing just news stories, missing people cases, any celebrity gossip that goes on, that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Okay. And so, yeah, I mentioned your Tick Tock channel, which is Julie Louise 1975, 991,000 followers. So that's almost a million followers. That's an amazing. That's an amazing achievement. Hopefully today, if everybody stops this episode, go subscribe on TikTok. Maybe we can push her over the 1 million mark.

Julie Louise [00:05:53] That'd be wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And then your YouTube channel looks like it's called the recap with Julie. And do you know how many subs you have on YouTube?

Julie Louise [00:06:04] I think on YouTube I'm about, oh, I want to say 8,000, maybe it's just climbing or maybe even less. 10,000 maybe.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] So TikTok is your, TikTok is your main, is your main thing. But yeah, YouTube.

Julie Louise [00:06:20] Okay, I'm trying. Yeah.

Guest Julie Louise's Background and Mormon Awareness

John Dehlin [00:06:22] And really quickly, Julie, what do you know about Mormons? To what extent have you followed Mormons? To what extent are you interested in Mormons? I'd love to hear just your Mormon background or non background.

Julie Louise [00:06:34] My only experience, I would say with Mormons and the religion in general is sadly everything I learn off TV shows. So any of the shows I was fascinated with, any of the shows that, that followed the Mormon lifestyle. A few of the vlogs I followed, not a lot. But then unfortunately it's with people like Ruby, Frankie and Lori Valo. Those are kind of the, the introduction to the fanatical side of it. So I'm absolutely fascinated with kind of hearing the actual religious side of it, not the fanatics that we kind of view through the social media aspect of it in those TV shows.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] And have you ever known Mormons kind of in your real day to day life, have you ever been friends with the Mormon before?

Julie Louise [00:07:16] No. And honestly, to be honest, I don't even know what we have in my area for Mormons. I know we have lots of different religions, but as far as I know, I don't think I know anyone that's a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] Okay. And you know, don't be, don't filter with this next question. I'm dying to know when, when I say the word Mormon, what just do free consciousness, free association. What comes to your mind when I say the word Mormon or when I say the Mormon people or when I say the Mormon church? Just say all the things that come to your mind. Don't filter.

Julie Louise [00:07:50] First things, Utah, Like Utah. It screams Utah. Anytime I hear Mormon, I think Utah. And I don't know if that's, if that's like the birthplace of Mormonism maybe. But yeah, that's the very first thing. And unfortunately the second thing I think of is like I said, Ruby, Frankie and Lori Valo. I think of extremists and I think of polygamy, kind of all those little branches and, and nothing positive to be Honest. It's not good.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Well, and, and that's not your fault. That's just what, you know, what your impressions are. Do you know, does the word Joseph Smith mean anything to you? And if so, you know, what, what, what comes to your mind just as a total outsider when the word Joseph Smith comes up?

Julie Louise [00:08:34] TV again. Tv. All the shows with. Is it. I can't think of the name of the shows that I was watching, but the extremist kind of sides of it, like the flds, churches and Winner of

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Heaven or Keep Sweet Bay with Warren Jack.

Julie Louise [00:08:49] Exactly. I've watched all of those. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] Okay. All right.

Julie Louise [00:08:54] Yeah. Restricted clothing, restricted kind of activities, living in like a kind of isolated community. All of those things kind of come into play for me.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] Okay, so this will be fun because we'll get to watch you get educated about Mormonism a little bit as we hear an outsider's view as well. So this will be fun to kind of have the exchange. I do want to welcome our livestream audience. We've got already 1200 people, almost 1300 people in the live stream, and I'm sure it's going to grow. So welcome everybody. We've got Maven moderating the comments and she'll star any comments or questions you have and we'll try and incorporate them as we can. Please do like us on YouTube and subscribe to us and also to. To Julie. Hop on over to Julie's YouTube channel, subscribe to the recap with Julie and follow her on TikTok as you also follow us on TikTok, because those follows really do matter as well.

How the Journals Reflect LDS Culture and Teachings

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Okay, so I'll just say to begin, you know, I'll show the headline. This is just from People magazine. It's from about a week ago. And the headline is inside Ruby Frankie's diaries. Disturbing details of child abuse police say was rooted in religious extremism. And that's one of the main themes I want to cover today. I want to answer the question, just how extreme is, you know, the stuff that we're associating with that we're learning about Ruby and Jody or how mainstream is it? And I do want viewers and listeners that's some really important share their thoughts or opinions about. As we talk about various themes of Mormon doctrine, I want people to share.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] That's not what I learned growing up as a Mormon or I was absolutely taught that as a Mormon growing up. And here's, you know, a quick little example because that's, that's kind of what I want to get to the heart at how much of Ruby and Jody is mainstream Mormonism and then what's fringe? So that's really important to me. And really quickly, I just want to share an article that the Salt Lake Tribune recently published. Tamara Kemsley is a reporter that I respect. I've interacted with Tamara and she published an article called How Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt Represent LDS Teachings and Where They Go Wildly Astray.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] And so the idea here is how mainstream are they and how non mainstream are they? Here is a photo of, you know, the very first page of this journal. So this is what we're going to be referring to. This is the first page of like the 60 or 70 page journal. Gerardo, do you want to give just a little bit of background on the journal? Is there anything you want to say about it? Or Julie, before we address tomorrow's article more specifically, is there anything you all want to say about it?

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:58] Yeah, well, I think Julie is. Probably has. Is a little bit more familiarized with. With them, so I'll let her.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] All right, Julie, anything you want to say? Just to set up the diary.

Julie Louise [00:12:10] I think the. The first thing that I want to say is how difficult it is to read the journals. I didn't kind of expect them to be that hard to get through. I was extremely emotional the first time I went through them when I was documenting them. But I think it gave much insight into exactly what Ruby Frankie was thinking and sadly, exactly what she was doing to her children. Like, she recorded everything. And I also think that's why you guys might recall, but in the plea deal, they had listed certain things that they had done to the children that were horrendous. And I kept thinking, why would they admit that it has to be written somewhere or like in a text message or recorded.

Julie Louise [00:12:47] It's straight out of the journals. Like she documented the horrendous things that she did to those children and the way she was thinking as she did it, it's shocking. It really is. It's shocking.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] And I'll just say lesson number one. Journal writing is an extremely Mormon thing. Mormons are taught to keep journals from a very, very young age. Look at. Check this out. So this just happens to be the journals from my childhood. I've got them here on my desk. That's like six journals between the time I was born and my mission. And I'm not exaggerating. So it's absolutely no idea. Yeah, it's absolutely taught that to be a righteous, faithful Mormon, you need to keep a journal. Is that true, Gerardo? Were you. Were you taught that, too?

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:30] Yeah, that's absolutely true.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] Yeah, for sure.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:33] And something I did want to mention, it seemed like this journals were, were also describing some kind of training program that the kids were going through while at Jody's. Right. Like, it seemed like there was a goal. The goal was to take out the evil out of the kids. I mean, the, the like. I think it's important to mention at this point the kids and, and Ruby, it's my understanding they were living with Jody at their, at her house. Is that your understanding as well, Julie?

Julie Louise [00:14:04] Yeah, And I was actually pretty surprised to read in the journals it sounds like the two middle daughters were, were in attendance at the house too, which I don't think we realized at the time. We thought it was just the two younger children, but there's a lot of entries that mention, like, they use abbreviations. She uses abbreviations in it. So she call and a. For the two middle girls. But yeah, they're. They're in there as well. And the whole thing is, like you said, it seems to be this training program where she thinks like almost physical activities and abuse and torture, really, if you want to lay it out, what it really is are ways that they're going to get out the devil or whatever she thought was wrong with her children.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. All right, so, yeah, the very act of journal writing is definitely very Mormon. Okay, so I want to just address tomorrow's article really quickly. There was a clip that I had Gerardo grab from it that I think is important, and I'll just read it. The section is outside the mainstream. And this article says, according to the religious historian John Charles Duffy, he's an ex Mormon historian, by the way, a teaching professor at Miami University. He says there's no doubt that any mainstream Latter Day Saint would find Hildebrandt's and Frankie's behaviors totally beyond the pale. But the scholar said that doesn't mean that Frankie's worldview is totally divorced from the faith.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] The Mother of Six's emphasis on exact obedience and the need for constant repentance are, Duffy said, present in the Latter Day Saint culture and teachings. And some of her language phrases like divine worth and a daughter of God is found in the church discourse. And I just want to say that while, yes, I think John Charles Duffy does mention a few important Mormon themes or teachings that we're going to cover, he's leaving out a bunch. And no, I don't think most Mormons torture their kids or abuse their kids, but There's a lot more that unfortunately, in my opinion, John Charles Duffy and Tamara Kemsley leave off.

Visions of Glory and Mormon Extremism

John Dehlin [00:16:15] And to begin, I just want to make a really important note. I want to remind viewers and listeners of the book Visions of Glory, One man's Astonishing account of the last days, the five year anniversary edition. We know that the real author of this book, Tom Harrison, you know, had Jody Hildebrandt at his conferences. We know that he consulted Chad Dabo and Lori Valo in in different ways. We know that he consulted or influenced Tim Ballard in, in various ways. And I just want to make the assertion that the a lot of these teachings that we're going to cover with Ruby and Jody are associated with this book.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] And this book is important not just because, you know, it's got 3,500 ratings on, you know, on Amazon recently Thrift Books published the most popular non fiction books by state. And there on the right you'll see that the most popular book in 2023 for the state of Utah is what book? What book is it, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:24] Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] What book is it, Julie?

Julie Louise [00:17:27] Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] Of Glory. And even if you go to Amazon bestseller list from today, it doesn't make the top 10. But their visions of glory is listed as number 14 and number 15 on the Amazon bestsellers for Mormonism. And Gerardo, what book is number 19? I just think it's worth mentioning what number 19 is.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:51] Number 19 is the saints book.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] Saints. In other words, more Mormons by far are reading Visions of Glory than are reading Saints, which is the Mormon Church's own published book about its own history. And I think that's highly significant because if we count both versions of Visions of Glory, that means Visions of Glory is Reading Tooth is being read at least 2/3 as often as the book Saints. Am I getting that right, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:23] Yeah, I mean if we go by like how about the people that are purchasing books today? Yeah, it seems to be that way.

Julie Louise [00:18:29] Yeah, I'm going to jump in because I don't know this book. Oh, the Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Oh well, there's some Mormon stories episodes you need to watch, but basically it's basically this apocalyptic, this man, Tom Harrison, who is a very popular Mormon therapist, he's living right now. He had these dreams, this near death experience and these dreams where you foresaw the second coming and apocalypse where all the, you know, a bunch of buildings were reduced to chaos and rubble, where faults, earthquake faults went through the heart of Salt Lake City. All these homes collapse and then there's this Apocalypse with tent cities and all these Mormons living in tents if they weren't killed by the second coming of Jesus. And then of course, Jesus comes to Salt Lake City and speaks in the General Conference Tabernacle building to all the Mormons because of course, Jesus is Mormon or, you know, the Mormon Church is.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] Jesus is one true church. And of course Jesus is going to come to the Mormons because that's his true church. And it also talks about demons possessing people's bodies and taking them over. And of course, these are demons that need to be exercised. But. But you know, Julie, you may want to check out a few of the episodes we did on this book, because this book is influencing Mormons very heavily. And I think this is something Tamara can.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Tamara and others, just mainstream journalists. It's part of the story that's really important that people are missing. And just to show you how important this book is, Julie, what I'm sure, Chad Dabel, Lori Valo.

Julie Louise [00:20:13] Yeah. In Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] I bet this is at poolside in Hawaii, right as they're getting arrested. And as the witness, Julie, what book is under the right knee of Lori Valo?

Julie Louise [00:20:24] The Visions of Glory. That's very interesting.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Yeah. So this.

Julie Louise [00:20:28] Now let me ask you this because I haven't watched these episodes. So does the Mormon Church support this book or are they against this book?

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Well, they have not officially endorsed this book. Tom Harrison recounts that he shared his dreams and visions with one of the twelve apostles of the Mormon Church, Neal A. Maxwell, who, it turns out he lived in the same ward or neighborhood as, as. And he claims at the very beginning of the book that an apostle, who we now know as Neal A. Maxwell, heard these visions and told Tom Harrison that the visions were true.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] And then we also know that Tom Harrison, like Jody Hildebrand, has been a consultant to top leaders of the Mormon Church for decades, specifically around mental health and, I believe, child abuse. So Tom Harrison is a much trusted inside consultant to the Mormon Church, as far as we understand.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] And so while the church doesn't endorse the book, they had a chance to excommunicate him and they chose not to. And since that point, he's spoken in churches, he's spoken at firesides, and this book has been a bestseller for decades now within the Mormon Church. So I don't know, Gerardo, am I overstating it? What do you think?

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:48] No, I think you're right. And I think something important, Julie, to that you should know is when the LDS Church doesn't like something the the mainstream population in their church knowing about or. Or paying too much attention to they. Right off the bat, they. They can really easily either excommunicate the person or send out a statement denouncing the book or. Or the doctrine or whatever is being taught. The Mormon Church is really quickly to do that. So I think it's pretty safe when. When LDS people feel like this is being endorsed by either their leaders or the person who's promoting these ideas is saying that he has contacts with the apostles, you know, to feel pretty safe that this is something that they should be looking at.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] I just want to address Mary Curie says Visions of Glory is only selling so many copies because it keeps getting advertised on Mormon Stories podcast. I. I mean, that's a fair point, Mary, but I just want to push back. It influenced Tim Ballard. It influenced Jody Hildebrandt. It's freaking under Lori Vallow's knee, like this book. Julie Rowe. This book is highly influential, and we're going to show how relevant it is. So I just. I appreciate that feedback, Mary, but I just totally disagree. Julie, do you have any other questions before we go on?

Julie Louise [00:23:11] No, I think that was the big one. When you were talking about the book, I was just kind of curious. It sounds like the extremists that we kind of know of from mainstream are really relying on this book and what it says and almost twisting it, making a real life.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] It's like the Mormon prepper Bible, basically. Mormon preppers are everywhere. In Arizona, in Idaho, in Utah, in California, and this is their Bible along with the Book of Mormon in the Bible. That's my opinion, and that's why I'm talking about it. Okay, so with that context, and by the way, Julie, as a witness to the fact that the church can excommunicate somebody and disavow their content if they don't like it, I myself have been excommunicated by the Mormon Church. I was excommunicated in 2015, and they denounced my podcast and asked me to take my podcast down. They could have done that to Tom Harrison, and they didn't. So.

Julie Louise [00:24:06] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Yeah, so I think that's.

Julie Louise [00:24:09] John, one more question then. In 2015, when that happened to you, had you already been doing this? Is that why that happened?

John Dehlin [00:24:14] I've been doing Mormon stories since 2005. So, yeah, my podcast, 10 years. When the church.

Julie Louise [00:24:20] They gave you 10 years?

John Dehlin [00:24:21] They gave me a good 10 years, yeah. Okay, so the next point that I want to talk about are the. I call these the Lego building blocks that helped create Ruby. Frankie. Jody. Hildebrandt. Chad Dabell, Lori Vallow and Tim Ballard and so many others. So while, you know, we can't claim that, you know, we're not trying to claim that mainstream Mormons torture their kids and hog tie their kids, you know, etc. Let's just talk about the fundamental core Mormon beliefs that are, we believe, mainstream Mormon doctrine that influence all these characters. So Mormon. The Mormons are taught that they are super special, that we are the chosen people, like the Israelites, like the Jews.

Mormon Beliefs That Shaped Ruby's Worldview

John Dehlin [00:25:07] We have been chosen by God in the one true church, saved for the latter days. And, you know, in our patriarchal blessings. I personally was told of my patriarchal blessing, that I was saved for the latter days to help usher in the second coming. I was told that I would be resurrected in the morning of the first resurrection. There's just this whole rhetoric around Mormons being special and, and Mormons who are living now are chosen because they were most valiant for the latter days to prepare the second coming of Jesus. If anybody tells me that's not true, they either are uninformed or they're lying. That's where the whole Saturday's Warrior musical comes from.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] We have been saved for the latter Days to usher in the second coming of Jesus. The whole church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is named Latter Day Saints because these are the end times. These are the latter days. Jesus is coming very soon. There's this teaching of the one mighty and strong which comes from Isaiah. It's propagated by a man named Avram Gileadi who is in good standing with the church. And it's even in the Doctrine and Covenants where it's taught that somebody in the church is going to rise up and usher in and prepare the way for Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] It's also called the Davidic Servant. But this is something that Chad and Laurie and Tim and probably Judy and Ruby were influenced by. And just this idea that members are supposed to help usher in the second coming of Jesus. Other teachings are that God loves you, but he can kill you, or he can punish you, or he can torture you, or he can threaten you. Any of us who have read either the Old Testament or the Book of Mormon know that. Or the Doctrine and Covenants that if you don't, if Emma's not okay with polygamy, God's going to destroy her. According to Joseph Smith, if Joseph Smith's plural wives, you know, don't acquiesce to Joseph's propositions, God's going to destroy Joseph Smith with an angel and a Flaming Sword.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] We have the story of Noah where a lot of God's children somehow weren't righteous and God destroys all of his own children and then sort of reboots civilization. I don't have to enumerate all the examples, but once we get to the way that Judy and Jody and Ruby are willing to punish her children, I would say that's very consistent with the Mormon God that's willing to torture and punish and even kill his own children if they don't do what's right. Now, is that too extreme? Gerardo, what do you think?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:48] I think that's. I think that's right.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] I mean, it's shocking. But is it wrong?

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:54] No, I think that's right for sure.

Guest [00:27:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] And, Julie, is that your understanding of the God of the Bible? I don't know if you're a believer in God or Jesus or not. We don't take that position on Mormon stories other than to say that's how we read the Bible.

Julie Louise [00:28:07] Do you know what I think for Main street, like, for. For Catholics, Baptists, things like that, I think it's in the eye of the perceiver. I think that it depends who's reading the Bible. If you look at Christ like that or if you look at him as a merciful kind of being. Like, it depends who's reading it, I think, in a way. But my mouth was open the whole time. Like, my jaw was dropped as you were going through that. Like, that's. For someone who doesn't know anything about Mormonism, it. That's. It's shocking. Like, that's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:28:39] Mormons have a little bit of a problem with, like, really separating. Oh, you know, the. The God from. From the Old Testament to the go, and then Jesus in the New Testament, because you have in the Book of Mormon, which is kind of like, you know, the separate book of scripture that Mormons believe in. You have the same God or, you know, like this idea that it's. That the God of the Old Testament is the same. It's Jesus just like before he came to Earth, talking to these people. And you have people in that. We're supposed to be part of the Old Testament times in the Book of Mormon, believing in Jesus and doing Christian rituals. So it's. It's hard for mermans to separate. Like, oh, well, God was like that before, but now he's merciful. So it's kind of all kind of together in their minds. Would that be right, John?

Julie Louise [00:29:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Yeah. But even. Even Julie, in the Book of Mormon, if you read the Book of Mormon, it's supposed to be taking place on the Americas. And, you know, there's 600 years before Jesus died, comes to America where the Nephites and the Lamanites are living. And then all of a sudden, Jesus comes, you know, and he. After he dies over the old world, he comes to America. And Gerardo, according to the Book of Mormon, what happens when right before Jesus comes to America, what happens of destruction

Gerardo Sumano [00:29:56] and all the wicked, wicked people die? And.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] Yeah, like volcanoes and mountains fall on people and there's fire and just the fact that Jesus.

Julie Louise [00:30:06] Second coming of Christ. Yeah, in the Bible, in the Book

John Dehlin [00:30:09] of Mormon, as soon as Jesus comes, mass murder. And I'm not. I'm not trying to.

Julie Louise [00:30:16] Something to look forward to.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] I mean, God, the Mormon God can be a very harsh God. And I think that's just a fact, but it's. But it's also something Mormons don't like to talk about or. Or acknowledge. Really quickly, a couple other really important doctrines that are building blocks. Mormons believe that we, you know, our. Our body is physical, but inside our body is a spirit. That that spirit was a offspring of God and Heavenly mother. So God and heavenly mother, or mothers, lived, you know, before the earth was created, somehow physically with their physical bodies, they created billions of spiritual children, that we all lived in a premortal life and that we were up there as spirits in heaven.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] And then once Adam and Eve were created, God sent the first two spirits into the first two human bodies on earth. And then all the children born after that are spirits coming down from heaven and inhabiting these bodies. And that's important for a lot of reasons. It also is Mormon belief that once these spirits, once humans die and their spirits go on, that these spirits can communicate with us after they die. That is something I was taught and continues to be taught in Mormonism, but also that the Holy Ghost is a spirit that can enter our bodies and inspire us through our feelings, and that our thoughts and feelings then can be from God or evil spirits can enter into our bodies and influence us or tempt us.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] And so it's absolutely Mormon doctrine that our emotions and our thoughts and our feelings can literally be from God or from Satan. And so when Chad Dabel and Lori Valow think that they're gonna usher in the second coming of Jesus, or when Jody Hildebrandt and Ruby get these revelations that they talk about that we haven't found yet. What are they called, these books, Julie, that we know that they have found but have not released yet.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:26] Yeah. The pen papers.

John Dehlin [00:32:27] The pen papers.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:29] Have you heard about that, Julie?

Guest [00:32:32] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] What are the pen papers?

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:35] Well, my understanding is I. I think Kevin, Frankie talks about the pen papers in one of, you know, one of the. Her. His interviews with the police and says the pen papers are kind of like this more spiritual journals type thing that. That Jody and Ruby were keeping, and. And they were recording their revelations and their communications with God. But the police haven't found the p. Well, they haven't found. I think they found the pen papers, but then they didn't take them with them, and then they. They're lost. So no one knows where the pen papers are.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] But just this idea of, like, people receiving revelation from God and then writing it down. That's Joseph Smith. That's every prophet that's ever existed. Oh, go ahead, Julie.

Julie Louise [00:33:17] I was just gonna say, because when this all first broke, if you guys remember, Sherry, Frankie had taken. Stolen, in Kevin's view, journals like that, electronic journals and handwritten journals from her. And Kevin lost his mind wanting those back. He called the police. He wanted her charged. The police ended up calling Sherry the daughter, this is the oldest daughter, saying she had to return them. So she did take them back to the police, and the police returned them to Kevin. But as far as I know, they weren't as in part of a search warrant. Like, I don't believe they searched the Frankie family home, so maybe that was that he wanted them back.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:51] Yeah, these were different. So. So those are the family journals. But the. The pen papers was supposedly like a folder full of, like, of papers. Kevin. Kevin describes it in one of the recordings and.

Julie Louise [00:34:04] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:05] And it seems like our. Our friend from True Crime podcast, the Hidden True Crime Lauren has been able to. To capture the. The moment in which the police are searching on Jody's house and they lift up the pen papers and then they just put him back down.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] Down.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:23] Yeah.

Julie Louise [00:34:23] Oh, lovely. Yeah, we don't need these. This stack of paper. Let's just set that back down.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] But the. But I think the. The main point, I just want to say is that Jody and Ruby clearly think that they're receiving revelation from God through the Holy Spirit and they're writing these revelations down in the pen papers. That's as Mormon as anything. The idea that Mormons believe that they can receive revelation through the Holy Ghost and that that's revelation for them, 100% Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] And then also this idea that evil spirits are constantly trying to enter into our bodies and tempt us. I don't know if you know this, Julie, but Remember when I talked about those billions of spirit children born in the pre earth life with Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mothers? What we're taught as Mormons is that Jesus presented a plan for the earth and that Satan presented a plan for the earth. And long story short, Heavenly Father went with Jesus's plan. So Satan and a third of God and Heavenly Mother's spirit children got super mad that their plan wasn't chosen. And so they were all sent down to earth.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] And their main role, these billions of evil spirits that are roaming the earth right now, their main job is to try and influence us, to tempt us, to. To have us fall away from Heavenly Father's plan and to possess our bodies. That's literally Mormon doctrine and theology. Am I, am I wrong, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:56] That's right. That's right. I. I think it's just.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Yeah, you can tell.

Julie Louise [00:35:59] I'm like, what?

John Dehlin [00:36:01] You didn't know that?

Julie Louise [00:36:03] No. Although it explains a lot from one of the journal entries in Ruby Frankie's journal because she talks about how God chose her as the mother for these two younger children and how he sent them to her and. And she kind of goes into detail about that. It's exactly what you just explained.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] So, yeah, it's a lot. Somebody wrote body thetans. It is a little bit Scientology, like Kimberly's. Right. Body thetans. But yeah, it's absolutely this idea of spirits trying to possess our bodies. That's absolutely true. So that's where the Mormon priesthood comes in. Mormon men are giving the priesthood by the laying out of hands. And one of the explicit powers of the priesthood is the ability to remove evil spirits or temptations from us and also to tell us what we should do in our lives. So we're going to be talking about Jody visiting with her bishop or with Kevin or with Mormon top level Mormon leaders to get blessings.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] It's absolutely Mormon doctrine that men can lay their hands on someone's head and cast out evil spirits or raise their arm to the square like in the Mormon Temple and cast out evil spirits, you know, from. From our presence. And then finally, just to conclude this idea of exact obedience, that you obey your parents or your priesthood leaders with exactness, that you need to be sexually pure. No porn, no masturbation, no dirty thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:37:31] That if you do have sexual thoughts or act out sexually or masturbate or look at porn, you need to repent, which means confessing to your parents and to the bishop. Sometimes you need to suffer as a way to atone. Jesus suffered when he atoned for our sins. And sometimes we need to pay the price of our sins, which can include suffering and then finally fasting is a way that we achieve righteousness. And I think all those things I just listed are core Mormon doctrines and they're totally integrated into the story with Jody and Ruby. And I wish the media would cover that.

Julie Louise [00:38:10] That, yeah, you just, everything you just said is completely Jody Hildebrand's theories. Especially like the porn addiction. Everyone she canceled, that's the first thing she went to, is that the men had porn addictions.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Julie Louise [00:38:25] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:25] And something, something I should say as well. I, I, I don't know if you'll agree with me, John, that all these casting out of spirits and the priesthood being to remove evil spirits, you know, that, that these guys are, are, are believing. Yes. Is Mormon doctrine. I think most Mormons would agree that that's, that's a belief, but no one really, but most Mormons won't take it seriously. Like you won't see a, a normal Mormon casting out spirits in their day to day lives or even most Mormons have, would have never tried or done that before.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] I don't know, Gerardo. Like, I, I don't want to say that's wrong. I want to say I think every Mormon missionary has been told stories of, of yes, you know, possessions and, and castings out happening on their missions.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:13] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] I know that I, you know, I, I as a kid believed in, in evil spirits and possessions and I sometimes wondered whether I was being influenced by evil spirits. And I'd certainly heard of, of exorcisms, Mormon exorcisms going on all through not just my upbringing, but in the mtc I was told stories that happened. So, you know, maybe not everyone sees it or does it, but we're all taught about it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:43] Yeah, that's right.

Julie Louise [00:39:43] I thought all of that was part of the extremist side. I thought that was all like fanatics who thought of that. I didn't realize it was so mainstream in the Mormon religion.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Well, you know, I, and we can, you know, we can also have our viewers and listeners right now share their experiences with possession or exorcism because I'm curious what, what our viewers and listeners would say. Okay, so what we're going to do is we haven't, we're not covering all 60 or 70 pages of the journal today, but we are going to read some of the excerpts. Let's say, Julie, before we begin, is there anything you want to say about these journals, about Ruby, about Jody, about any of this before. Before we jump in,

Julie Louise [00:40:28] the first thing I have to say is I am so thankful to have been doing this podcast with you right now. I had no idea, like I said, that this was some of these theories and thoughts were mainstream Mormon religion. I thought when reading these journals that it was all fanatic and just like extreme what they were talking about, but they're so revealing. I mean, it. She incorporates, I guess, the Mormon belief into everything she's doing, and it's just brought to an extreme, I guess, for this, the theory that she's. She's referring to in it. But yeah, I'm blown away. I'm just, I'm very glad to be a part of this right now, learning all of this.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Well, thanks. Thanks. And we're glad you're here. Mama Jama writes, I was told as a child that my grandfather experienced possession and cast the demon out through Christ. So that's just one example. Thanks, Mama Jemma, for sharing. We invite others to share as well. Okay, let's go ahead and just start reading some of the pages and we're going to be sharing some Mormon doctrine and theology in between and trying to translate some of this stuff. So I'll read it. I'll get your reactions, Julie, and then we'll talk a little bit more about each page as we go. Is that okay?

Julie Louise [00:41:37] Sounds good.

Reading the First Pages of the Journal

John Dehlin [00:41:38] Okay, so here's very. This was some of the most. It was. I was surprised at how scandalous page one was of the, of the diary. And we'll, we'll explain to you why. So it starts out, this is the page one of Ruby Frankie's diary. It says, timeline Jody receives blessing from temple president Steve Kaplan. That's on May 21, 2023.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Then it goes on to say, Ruby AJR and E. Come down to Jody's to help spring clean. And then May 28th, meet Jeremy Yagi. We're going to explain who Jeremy Yagi is in just a second. Then June 13th, Jody goes to Salt Lake City to meet with Jeremy Yagi and Brad Wilcox. We're about to tell you who that is. June 30, 2023, R. Refuses to do wall sits. He says he is done. And then July 1, R.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] To stay outside, sleep outside, only come in to go the bathroom and shower. And then July 14, E. Refuses to work. Screams, has hair shaved off. 7:15, R. Runs away around 1:15am Ruby finds him at 3:19am and then it says, Jody, E.J. drive to Arizona to find a property in land. Now there is so much there. I Do want to warn everybody that some of this stuff is very disturbing and take care that, you know, emotional care because what we're going to be reading, some of the stuff is very disturbing.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Some of this is redacted. People are telling me to remind you all that those big blocks represent redacted text. Julie, what do you want to say about that first page before we give you some other background?

Julie Louise [00:43:31] So I think I'll explain wall sits first because that was a lot of questions I had when I first talked about this on my TikTok live. But, but wall sits are when you put your back against the wall and you have to sit in a squat position and hold that position. And it's in my experience from doing them at the gym, excruciating. And they would have to do it for hours with brief breaks in between. So that was kind of one of the punishments.

Julie Louise [00:43:55] The second to point out in there was when it talked about E and shaving her hair. We're going to see that a few times in the journals. I don't know if this is, is a form of punishment that Ruby and Jody came up with or if it's something even in the Mormon religion, but she, she talks about shaving E's hair for a distraction a number of times in there and when they mention the initials so Jay. So if you're familiar with the family, ENR are the two youngest children and A and J are the two middle girls. So both of those girls, as you can see from the very first page, are in attendance at Jody's home and having to witness what these two women are doing to their two siblings.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Thank you. I'm going to go and just read a couple comments that have come up just because they're relevant. IASU writes, I did an exorcism on a member's house when I was a missionary because she thought it was cursed. So there's one real life example shows that we're not making this up. Marissa Anderson writes, my father in law was a bishop and a close friend of Jody. Last Sunday when I was talking about how horrible she is, he said, oh, she just recently went down a bad path. Sorry, that wasn't the one I was going to show. Mark And Billy Travels writes, when my husband and I were sealed in the temple, my in laws both warned us now that Satan would try to destroy our family. That's a very common thing to say in Mormonism, that Satan is trying to influence you, that Satan is trying to

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:27] get you and that Satan is trying to, is trying extra Hard with the believers as well.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] That's right. Yep. And then Mary Curie writes, my friend's daughter was 8 years old and having a fit, the bishop came over and performed an exorcism to cast out an evil spirit. So this is just a small sampling. I just want to make sure that we sort of drive home that point that this isn't just rare. Somebody's asking what a TBM is. TBM stands for True Believing Mormon. Like an orthodox Mormon. Thanks for that question, Rachel. Okay, so really quickly, I'm going to just cover a few slides. So. So this Stephen Kaplan guy is a former mission president. So Stephen Greg Kaplan, 59 and his wife, they live. They attend the Red Cliff 7th Branch. This is public information. We're not doxing anybody. This is on the church's website. They live in St. George Redcliffe Stake. He served as mission president over the Washington D.C. south Mission, which is a very influential mission. He.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:34] And just so Julie understands, mission presidents are a big deal in the Elios Church. Like, they're pretty high up there on the leadership ladder.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] Yeah. As soon as you become a mission president, you're a candidate for becoming a general authority for the church, which makes you one of the top 200 leaders in the Mormon Church. So he's giving blessings, apparently, to Jody Hildebrandt. So that shows really significant access. I do want to just touch on this idea about, you know, casting out an evil spirits. What I pulled together here, I pulled this today down from the Mormon Church's website, which I think is. What is it? Church of Jesus Christ, Dot whatever. What is it?

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:20] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:47:22] it's the topic. Spirits, evil or unclean. It says, see also devil, Satan or sorcery. And, you know, you can just read all these scriptural examples, you know, you know, tr. It says, trouble by sending evil angels among them. Seek unto them to have familiar spirits cast. It's. It's talking about Jesus cast out spirits with his word there met that him too possessed with devils, gave them power against unclean spirits. Like, it goes on and on and on.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Just. I mean, it's listing like 30 or 40 references today on the Mormon Church's website about casting out unclean or evil spirits. It even has a graphic. This is on the Mormon Church's website today. Julie cast out evil. And it shows like someone who looks like an apostle and he's like, holding up his hand like he's Obi Wan Kenobi. And then it's got this evil spirit who's like, no, please don't cast me out. And then it's got showing that he's being cast out. Like that's on the Mormon Church website today. Is that mainstream? Thank you. This just.

Julie Louise [00:48:44] It blows my mind. I legit thought this was the fanatical thinking of Mormon religion. I didn't realize this was mainstream Mormon beliefs.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] Absolutely mainstream. I'm going to go ahead and play now a clip from your own TikTok channel or your YouTube channel, because this talks about Kevin and the role he and his bishop played in casting out evil spirits, among other things. Do you want to give a quick intro to this video, Julie, just what it's about?

Claims of Demonic Possession and Casting Out Spirits

Julie Louise [00:49:13] Sure, yeah. So I had gone through a lot of the audio from the interrogation footage of Kevin at the police station. So this is one of the clips where he's talking about when he and Ruby had first found out basically that Jody was allegedly possessed, or I guess not possessed, but having these evil spirits visit her, I guess, and taunting her. So they. They go to her home and then she goes to theirs and he's kind of describing what happens.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Okay, let's go ahead and play that clip.

Julie Louise [00:49:44] This story just got even more messed up. In a recently released police interrogation video, Kevin Frankie told police that Jody Hildebrand was possessed. In this clip I'm about to play, Kevin claims that Jody goes to a dinner and confesses to the women there that she's basically possessed. Now another family, apparently called the Hannahs, who works for Connections, steps up, takes Jody into their home, and then Jody claims they kidnapped her. Just listen.

Guest [00:50:14] We went out to like a dinner afterwards and. And that's where Jody really opened up to the women in a private conversation that she believed she was being tormented and haunted by shadow figures every night. And that was spooky. According to Jody, she was held against her will for six weeks and was kidnapped and she escaped and got out. According to the Hannahs, after six weeks of Jody stabbing herself with forks and knives, cutting herself and wanting to commit suicide and trying to seduce the husband of the family, they kicked her out. I don't know what's the truth record? Maybe a little bit of both, I don't know. But the point is, somewhere around mid April, Jody was back in her home in Ivan's, and she was a hot mess.

Julie Louise [00:51:15] And then it gets even weirder. So Kevin in this next clip says that he goes to visit Jody with Ruby and that he experiences all of these supernatural events. And then apparently Ruby decides that Jody Hildebrand needs to come and live with them. So she has a conversation about this with Kevin Kevin says he's not comfortable with it. Jody and Ruby say that he's selfish. So I guess he backs down and says, okay, fine, she can come and live with us. And then he tells about all these crazy events that happen while she's living with them.

Guest [00:51:47] Listen, I gotta say, like I'm a smart guy. I'm in engineer. I designed and helped build some really big stuff. I've been a college professor. I can't explain some of the stuff that happened while we were there. Like crashes in the basement while we were talking upstairs and plates like in the kitchen, them just flying off by themselves like full speed smashing on the wall and falling through the floor by themselves. I. I can't explain it, but I saw it with my own eyes and, and I don't have any way to explain it other than there's some crazy. The moment she showed up at my house, which is the weirdest crap started happening. Lights turning on and off. Said sounds of people walking in walls and like sounds like footprints going up walls and across the ceiling and stuff floating around. And it was just, it was weird and I hated it.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] I'm gonna, I'm gonna just share a comment. Both because it's a super chat and we want to thank Brooklyn Parks for their donation, but also she's challeng bit. She writes to say Mormons strongly believe in possessions is a stretch. Do we believe in the influence of Satan? Yes. Most wouldn't equate that with call Sam and Dean stuff, Vallow and Hildebrandt or fringe. And again, I appreciate the super chat. I appreciate the comment Brooklyn, but I just want to remind everybody that is exactly why we showed this Visions of Glory book. This is one of the top selling books in Mormonism right now and it begins with the idea of demonic possessions.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] Why are so many Mormons buying this book if demonic possession isn't central? We already showed that it's a best selling book. Chad and Laurie believed in demonic possessions. We know that Tim Ballard believed that he was going to a medium to talk to Moroni and to other ancient prophets.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] And again, what else do we have to do than to show this page? That's like 40 references on the Mormon Church's website right now. And Jesus himself, if you remember, Jesus taught that he met a man who was possessed with spirits and Jesus himself cast the spirits out of the man and then they went into some pigs and then the pigs ran off the edge of a cliff. Like I don't know what else we have to do, Gerardo, to make the Case again, this is. This. This photo right now is from the church's website right now. Casting out evil in the Mormon Temple ceremony. Gerardo, do you remember that when.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] When Satan is cast out of the garden by Peter, James and John, when they raised their right arm, like, I feel like she's gaslighting me. Gerardo, help me out here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:54:59] Yeah, well, I feel like I just. Sorry.

Julie Louise [00:55:03] Sorry. I was gonna say I feel like I just finished hearing the script of a horror movie. Like, I watched a particular horror movie the other night, and it legit was. Was that theme where somebody gets possessed and they have to get rid of the spirits into somebody else. Like it's a. It's legit. Straight from a horror movie.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:19] Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me just say this as well, Kevin. Frankie. I mean, when does it get too far, right? Like, when can you say that all these people are. Are way crazy? And, and especially when you're talking about a BYU professor. Kevin. Frankie, you know, we all know the. How strict BYU is when hiring someone. Professors don't just get hired because of their qualifications. They get. They also get all this filtering where they have to interview with general authority. They have constant interviews to make sure that they are staying true to the church's teachings and living according to the Church's teachings. Like, it's really hard to just be a BYU professor. And. And then saying the BYU professor is also French when he's talking about casting out demons and stuff. I don't know. That. That just. It's. It's a little far for me. What. What do you think, John?

Julie Louise [00:56:17] Yeah.

Guest [00:56:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] I don't know. I just don't know how else to make. To make this case. Yeah, I. I think if the church doesn't want members believing this, they need to shut it down. And again, the way they treated me, they shows they know how to shut things down. You publicly denounce it. You excommunicate people who teach it or do it, and you make general conference statements saying, stop believing in demonic possession. You know, stop believing that demons inspire people. But, you know, someone. Someone made this comment earlier, Gerardo. One of the Joseph Smith's first vision accounts include a demon who possessed Joseph Smith and bound his tongue. Do you remember that, Gerardo? Yeah. One of Joseph Smith's own versions of his first witness includes a demonic position.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:10] The official version, the one that's.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] Yeah. So how in the world can the church or this member say that it's not mainstream when Joseph himself has accounts of him doing it? I don't know.

Julie Louise [00:57:23] Binding was One of the things that Lori and Chad Daybell ended up doing to jj so that was their theory of how to get rid of the demon, right?

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Yeah. One more. Rebecca Loveless. We. We love you, Rebecca.

Guest [00:57:36] She.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] She's done great work on Mormon stories. She writes, I've witnessed my own father raising his arm to the square to cast out the devil out of my sister. It's 100% part of the Mormon religion. Thanks, Rebecca, for helping us not feel gaslit. Okay, let's go ahead and move on. Who is Jeremy Yagi? Jeremy Yagi. It turns out I've played basketball with Jeremy Yagi. So Jeremy Yagi was raised Mormon in Salt Lake City. He became a pharmaceutical rep when I was working for Microsoft in Seattle. Jeremy Yagi lived in my ward. We played basketball together. I knew him, but since then, he's climbed the ranks of the Mormon Church. And he's literally one of the most 100 powerful leaders in the Mormon Church. So, Julie, did you know that Jody Hildebrand was meeting multiple times with one of the most powerful leaders in the Mormon Church, like weeks or months before she was put in jail?

High-Level Church Leaders Meeting with Jody Hildebrandt

Julie Louise [00:58:37] I think that says so much. They had to have known what her thinking was and what her teachings were. And to be blessing her and meeting with her is. I don't understand it. I don't get it.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] Well, that's who Jeremy Yagi is. And if that weren't enough, Brad Wilcox is one of the top three global leaders over the young men's. So I don't think it. You know, Mormons don't need to be reminded how much the youth, and specifically the young men, are emphasized within the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church cares about its youth and particularly its young men so much because they're the ones that go and serve missions. And if you don't raise up your youth to become missionaries and then to go to BYU and then to get married and then to have kids, if you don't get them hooked into the church in their early 20s, the church knows that they lose over 80% of them later. So the youth are so important that recently, especially the young men, the young men's position in Mormon wards or congregations was eliminated and given to who, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:45] The bishops.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] So now Mormon bishops are the young men's leader because the young men are so important to the Mormon Church. And so this guy, Brad Wilcox, is in the presidency of the young men's general presidency. So these are the. Of the three men in the world overseeing the Mormon youth, Brad Wilcox is one of the top three and he was meeting multiple times with Jody Hildebrand. What do you think about that, Julie?

Julie Louise [01:00:18] While they're in their home abusing their children, including a young man. Like, that's, that's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] And this speaks to two things. You know, where's the gift of discernment? If these leaders are like, as close to righteousness almost as the apostles, if they're in tune with the Holy Ghost and Jesus and God, why aren't they being able to meet with Jody and say, wow, woman, not only am I not going to meet you with any. Meet with you anymore and get advice from you, but I'm going to turn you into the police because the Holy Ghost and Jesus and God are telling me that you're abusing your kids or Ruby's kids or whatever. But instead they're meeting with her, likely to get her advice on how to deal with porn and masturbation and with teaching young men how to live.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] And that's just, just outrageous. And it begs the question that I think all of us want to know and deserve to know. Why in the fetch, and that's a Mormon swear word, Julie, why in the fetch was Jody Hildebrandt meeting regularly with Jeremy Yagi, Brad Wilcox and a former mission president? Why was Jody Hildebrandt meeting with top church leaders? I've been told that they were. That she was consulting them on how to deal with porn and masturbation and the epidemic of porn and masturbation that is currently going on in the Mormon Church. What did you hear, Julie?

Julie Louise [01:01:48] I've heard that as well, that she was meeting with top church officials. And Jody Hildebrand and Ruby Frankie were not hiding their beliefs, especially Jody Hildebrand. She preached it all over her connections website. So there is absolutely no way, in my opinion, that these men didn't know her theories on, you know, how to bring up children and get out the spirits and, and deal with, you know, the. The porn addiction and things like that. Like she was separating families. She separated Kevin Frankie and Ruby Frankie for over a year. Telling them that this was the way you bring your marriage back together. Like, her thoughts are. Are just, in my opinion, so insane. And they were obviously supporting it.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] Gerardo, anything you want to add to. To the Jeremy Yagi, Brad Wilcox thing? We've covered Brad Wilcox on Mormon stories before.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:35] Yeah, well, yeah, just really interesting I that question, right? Like, why. Why were they meeting? Why was she meeting with them? It would be interesting if the church would tell us. We have a slide and a next slide from the article of the solid Tribune that tells us that that question was asked to church officials. And, and there in the second sentence says the church did not respond Friday to request to verify that the meeting took place or what the meeting was, what might have been discussed. So, yeah, the church doesn't really want to tell us whether they were meeting or not or what the meetings were about.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Yeah. And I, I think, you know, the Mormon Church, you know, the, the members of the Mormon Church pay tithing. They support the ch. These leaders. I think we deserve to know why a convicted felon, why. Why top Mormon church leaders were meeting with. With. With two convicted felons multiple times. Yeah, you know, Yeah, I think we deserve to know.

Julie Louise [01:03:41] And my guess, too is, again, they're supporting her. They don't want to come out and say exactly, you know, why they were meeting with her, because they support it. But there's also been phone calls related from Jody Hildebrand when she's talking to people that we don't know who those people are. And everybody, when I post the phone calls are like, who are these people? Because they all agree with her. Every time she's saying something crazy, they're like, yep, yep, exactly. Exactly like they're all supporting her still. Even though she's in prison for this, they're supporting her.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] The only other thing I want to mention from this first page is that down towards the bottom, it mentions Jody and Ian J. Driving to Arizona to find a property or land. To me, this suggests a couple possibilities. One is prepperism that Arizona and Idaho and kind of these rural places are where Mormons go to prepare for the second coming. And that's again, why I mentioned Visions of Glory, because it just is on script for Mormon preppers to go to rural Idaho or Arizona.

John Dehlin [01:04:45] There have been others who talked about, including I think, Tom Harrison, who talked about gathering to Arizona. And then many people are wondering whether Jody was going to be setting up one of these troubled teen camps, that she was buying a bunch of acreage to set one of these camps up. And then the final thing I'll say is many people feel like if they had been allowed to move to Arizona, that Ruby's children would have ended up like Lori Vallow's children, buried six feet under. What do you think, Julie?

Guest [01:05:21] Ruby?

Julie Louise [01:05:22] Yeah, 100%. And in the Journal, too, Ruby talks a lot about this land. And they take, well, Jody. Ruby never goes, but Jody goes numerous times to this piece of land to look at it. And throughout the Journal, Ruby talks about how the fact that they can't wait to get there because they can't discipline the children properly in Jody Hildebrandt's home, I'm guessing because of the neighbors and things. But they were. She talks about how she leads them to work the land as punishment and to get rid of these spirits and things and that she can't wait to get to this open land. And I honestly, I don't even think.

Julie Louise [01:05:55] I don't even think it was going to take them moving there for. For the same situation to happen to those children. I think if. If he hadn't escaped when he had of, I don't think they would have been here even now. I. I think it was going downhill very quickly.

John Dehlin [01:06:08] Yeah. And. And we know that. We know that Ruby sent her son Chad to the Anasazi. Is that right?

Julie Louise [01:06:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] Double teen Wilderness camp in Arizona. And then I've been told directly that Jody Hildebrandt had experience working with or in some of these Utah troubled teen camps. So, you know, it's all there and I think it's important.

Julie Louise [01:06:37] Yeah.

Journal Entries Describing Treatment of the Children

John Dehlin [01:06:38] Okay. Well, let's go ahead and go to the next journal entry. This is Sunday, July 9, 2023. R turns 12 tomorrow. I never envisioned him being 12. Still pooping, peeing himself. Satanic chorus. What's that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:01] Satanic choices.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] Thank you. Satanic choices lead one to becoming destitute even in the most affluential homes. So there's a reference to Satan. July 10th. And please correct me if I miss these words. It's hard to read.

Julie Louise [01:07:21] Her writing is a bit much.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Yeah. July 10. It's R's birthday. He doesn't even know what month it is. That's disturbing. Enr have been in so much deviant behavior, they won't control their bodily functions. They are both furious. Sorry. Both.

Julie Louise [01:07:45] I think it is furious. A lot of it is. It's almost like she's like just scribing things, like writing quickly, but okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] They're both furious their selfish, sinful lifestyle is being intervened upon. I told R he emulates a snake. He slithers. Sneaks around looking for and please interrupt me anytime. Sneaks around looking for opportunities when no one is watching. And then he scurries. If he wants to emulate the savior, he needs to be 100% obedient with exactness. There's the obedience theme and savior. No wavering, no hiding our lies. I mean, all the time. He is a compulsive liar. I never would have suspected. This entire experience is a shock to my system. Are never would. Do you guys see know what that

Julie Louise [01:08:42] says that never would have suspected the cold dead heart.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] She says he has the cold dead heart. R has. I don't know where to look. He has always been able to get what he wants, and now that he can't, he is furious. I told him if he divulged everything, he would automatically begin repenting. I asked if there was. All right, Julie, what do you think about that?

Julie Louise [01:09:11] This one really bothered me. This is her talking about the fact that the 10th was his 12th birthday, and she completely ignores it and basically says that he doesn't even know what the month is. And later on in the journals, I don't know if we'll get to that part or not. But later on in the journals, she realizes that both of the young children had been counting the days they'd been there. So he actually did know when his birthday was. The second thing that really upset me about that was her talking about the fact that he's. He's using the washroom in his pants. Like, he's.

Julie Louise [01:09:39] He's reverting. And anyone who. Who kind of deals with children or mental health issues and things like that know that that's a huge sign of trauma. When children at that age start wetting themselves or even defecating in their. In their own clothing. Again, it's. It shows the trauma. But I think in kind of in respect to him, I think if you read through the journal, he's rebelling as well. Like, I think he does it occasionally to, like, piss her off. I think he's doing it because it's the only thing he can do kind of to fight her and get a little bit of revenge. Because some of the things they start saying to her later, you can see the fight in him.

Julie Louise [01:10:20] So I do think it's both. I think it's probably trauma, and I think it's him kind of almost like, you know, flipping the bird to her in the only way he can.

John Dehlin [01:10:29] Gerardo, I'm curious what you think about this entry. And also, while obviously the parents are treating these kids in an extreme way or. Ruby, is this rhetoric of parents telling kids they need to be righteous, they need to be faithful, they need to be obedient. That part's absolutely Mormon. Some of the other stuff, extreme. What do you think, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:51] Yeah, that's what's interesting, that all. All that rhetoric or even language jumps out to me as so familiar, because it's so familiar. It's, it's. There are phrases that are used in the main in mainstream Mormonism for parents to the towards their children.

Guest [01:11:07] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:07] Like, you have to emulate the savior. Don't let Satan tempt you. And all these themes that keep coming up as to. And justifying Ruby torturing her children.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] Yeah. Really quickly, I'm. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna play. I'm gonna show a little comment. Helen Fizzler Parker writes, it's called regression. I think she's referring to the. The pooping and the peeing. She's called regression. And yes, he is doing it to have some control, I think.

Julie Louise [01:11:41] I agree. I agree, Helen.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] Good. Good theory. I think that's a good possible explanation. Yeah. And. And to talk about shaving the daughter's hair, I think that might at least tie to Mormon beauty standards. Julian Herardo, what do you guys think?

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:00] Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:12:01] Yeah, she talks about this a couple times. I think it's three times in the journal that she does this. She says initially about shaving the hair. Then she says, I cut it shorter. And then she goes again and says, like, she buzzed it clear off. And the first time she does it, she calls it a distraction. Like, I'm getting rid of the distraction. And then later in the journal, she talks about it as a punishment. Like, she tells e, you know, if you don't do this and you keep complaining, I'm gonna shave your head. And. And. Or I think it was when she says not to fidget.

Julie Louise [01:12:31] Actually, if you fidget and don't obey, I'm gonna shave your head. And of course, every little one that age fidgets. She fidgeted, and then she got her head shaved off. So I didn't quite know if this was from the Mormon, like, her Mormon thinking, or if this was just her being abusive, as she had, you know, numerous other times.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:50] Yeah. So we're going to talk a little bit more in depth about this later. But in Mormonism, there's this idea, and we talked about it already about repentance.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:59] That repentance. Sometimes there's. There's a lot of steps that you have to follow. Five steps of repentance. And. And then part of the repentance process is feeling shame for what you did or remorse or shame for what you did. And something I was taught growing up was in Mormonism, Julie, there's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:22] There's a. Every Sunday, people go to church and they partake of, uh, what they. They call the sacrament, bread and water, which represents the body and the blood of Jesus. They do it every Sunday. However, if you have committed a sin that it's maybe, you know, like you have masturbated watch porn. You're not supposed to partake of the sacrament. And usually when you're a youth or you're basically anybody, it's a little bit embarrassing because people around you are seeing that you're not partaking of the sacraments. And they know why, right? They usually are. They're probably gonna start guessing as to why or, or gossiping about it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:04] And I was taught growing up that that's part of the repentance process, feeling shame and, and that having people around you looking at you and, and, you know, and feeling that shame of people looking that you're not worthy of taking the sacrament is part of the repentance part process. And these. Seems like this idea of, like, shaving your head and, and, and feeling shame or as a punishment and feeling.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:29] Feeling bad when other people look at you. Sounds a lot to me like this idea of sacrament where, like, you're. You're having other people looking at you and it's a, It's a reminder of your, of your sin, of. Or something you did bad.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] What's your reaction to that, Julie?

Julie Louise [01:14:47] I think I completely agree. I think with the shaving the head part, and I think for women, too, it's. It's kind of a sign of, of their beauty. And, you know, she. I know that he enjoyed her hair. So taking that another step, I guess, is just more punishment. I, I'm curious, though, about with the, the bread and water. Is it just for those two items that you don't go up for? Is it just for masturbation and porn that you wouldn't go up? Or is there other things, things sexual.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] Sexual activity, like premarital sex?

Julie Louise [01:15:20] So that. That is like one of the worst things that you can do in the Mormon religion that the.

John Dehlin [01:15:24] The Book of Mormon states that premarital sex is next to murder in severity. It's like murder. And then right under that is premarital sex or, you know, adultery. Any sort of extramarital sex is next to murder and severity.

Julie Louise [01:15:41] That, that's a huge theme with Kevin and Ruby. Frankie, too, is why their marriage was kind of on the rocks because Jody was making Ruby realize that Kevin had this porn addiction. But he also talks a lot about how Ruby and him had these big conversations about their marital sex life and that he was making her feel a certain way because he wanted to have sex from his wife. So I think everyone who isn't a Mormon listening to that is like, what are you talking about? That's normal in a marriage between, you know, a husband and a wife or, you know, even any other couple as well. But to view it as negative or dirty is kind of the vibe that I got that Kevin was saying how Ruby felt by him wanting to have sex or. Or pleasure from his wife.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of sexual dysfunction. Really quickly, I'll just show one more clip. And Kelly Devereaux reminds us that malnutrition can cause severe diarrhea. So that's another theory. Kids might have been pooping and peeing themselves because we know that they were malnutri. Malnourished. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Let's go to the next page of the journal. It says, I told our.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:54] If you. If you exit it out. If you exit out of the presentation and come back in, I. I added a transcript.

John Dehlin [01:17:01] Oh, okay. All right. Here we go. Thanks, Gerardo. Let's show it now. I told R that he needs God. I invited him to fast and pray. R is out of control. R is in and out of possession. He is workable and calm for a bit, then angry and defiant the next. The only consistent thing is he lies. He is better behaved than Jody. She likes to think she can still manipulate me. I gave her a pixie haircut. All her long hair is gone. No more distracting with hair. R told me he would rather have a glass of water than a mother.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] And then it goes on to July 20th. July 11th, 2023. Big day for evil. E manipulates me. She won't scream when Jody is around, but with me, she wails all night. He screamed, cried, and would hit her head on the tile floor. Today Jody confronted her. He admits to putting on a show for her mother. He says she wants to be pitiful. R Was told to stand in the sun with his sun hat. He is defiant. I tell him a couple more times, R. And I should say, this demon. His demon stays in the shade. ROI should say R. Or I should say, his demon stays in the shade.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] I push R into the sun, but R comes back. I come back with a cactus poker. When I poke his back to get his attention, R doesn't even flinch. I poke him on the neck. He is in a trance and doesn't appear to feel anything. Jody slaps him on the cheeks to wake him up. This is where it starts getting really, really.

Julie Louise [01:18:58] Yeah. This is disturbing.

John Dehlin [01:19:01] Julie, what are your reactions to that?

Julie Louise [01:19:04] I think that was one of the hardest entries. It was almost like he's having, like, an outer body experience to get away from the abuse. And she's. She's just treating him like an animal like that. He's not even her child with, like, poking him and. And, you know, jamming things. This was also the second time that we hear about her doing stuff with E's hair throughout it. And the beginning is one part I wanted to ask you because it talks about our coming in and out of possession. So I know that a lot of what you were explaining believes that you can be, you know, influenced by these evil spirits and stuff, but, like, actual possession is almost what she's now thinking her children have or letting on that she believes that about her children. Anyway.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Gerardo, anything you want to add about this page?

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:52] Well, yeah, it's. It's pretty awful. Like, the. The stuff that she's doing, putting, like, I mean, we have to remember that this is St. George, right? Like, the sun is horrible at this time of year. Like, Utah was super hot here.

John Dehlin [01:20:06] It can get up to like, 120 degrees, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:09] Yeah. So I can't. And this. That was in Salt Lake. I can't even imagine St. George, so. So this was totally torture. And. And then, and then doing it because this idea that. That he had evil spirits that needed to be cast out if he standed on the sun, it's just horrible.

John Dehlin [01:20:29] And then I'll just. I'll just add really quickly a couple comments that I think are worth mentioning. You know, JP Cole asks, can we talk about dissociation? I think what she's referring to there is the fact that this kid's getting poked and he's not even responding. You know, that's. It's the fight flight or freeze dynamic. He's catatonic probably at this point, and he's dissociating because of all the pain he's experiencing.

John Dehlin [01:21:02] That's, I think, is really important. There was a couple other things. Oh, this is a really important point. Just back to the demonic possession. C. Larsen writes, I'm a few minutes behind, but about demonic possession in the Mormon Temple. Satan himself is not only in the Mormon Temple ceremony, he breaks the fourth wall and tells all the viewers that anyone who doesn't keep their covenants will be in his power. So in the most sacred Mormon ordinance of all, Satan tells all Mormons that if they don't obey every covenant that they're taught in the temple, that they'll be in Satan's power. So again, anyone who wants to claim this idea of demonic or satanic possession is not Mormon mainstream. I just. I just think they're. They're fooling themselves.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:55] I think you have a couple more slides about that in the next yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:21:59] Did you have a response, Julie?

Julie Louise [01:22:02] I'm just blown away by, by all that. I honestly, again, I thought all of this was the fanatic side of it and not the mainstream or mainstream beliefs of Mormonism. So to hear that some of this is actually in line with what they preach, it's scary. No, I, I just. My opinion. But no wonder we end up with people like Ruby, Frankie and Lori Valo when there are things like that in, in the belief system.

John Dehlin [01:22:28] Absolutely, Absolutely. Let me go.

Julie Louise [01:22:31] Easy to twist.

John Dehlin [01:22:33] Yeah, let me go ahead. And that's why I just keep saying media needs to cover this and Mormon church leaders need to denounce this stuff. It's not okay for media people or church leaders to call them fringe when these are core Mormon teachings. They're in the temple ceremony, they're in the scriptures, they're on the website, and they're taught generation after generation. It's just unacceptable. And I think a really another clear example of this, I went up to churchofjesuschrist.org today. Today, a couple hours ago, I made this slide from screenshots grabbed from the Mormon church's website in April 3, 2024. This is on the church's website.

John Dehlin [01:23:14] Quote, what Satan wanted, quite evidently, was the full possession, ownership of this creation of spirits that is involved in the peopling of this earth. So he tried to get them by gift. And, and that being denied, he is following along and trying to get us through the commission of sin. If we sin sufficiently, we become his subjects. I believe that's J. Reuben Clark in a conference talk in 1949. He's a Mormon apostle. But the most important part is that's on the Mormon Church's website right now.

Julie Louise [01:23:50] Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] Not fringe. And then the other, quote, the punishment of Satan and the third of the hosts of heaven who followed him was that they were denied the privilege of being born into this world and receiving mortal bodies. They did not keep their first estate and were denied the opportunity of eternal progression. The Lord cast them out into the earth where they became the tempters of mankind, the devil and his angels. That's Joseph Fielding Smith, also a Mormon prophet, Syrian revelator and apostle from doctrines of salvation 165. And I'm kind of stunned that they're still quoting Bruce Armaconkey. Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of salvation in 2024. And if that weren't enough, Gerardo, tell us about this screen grab that you recently got.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:45] I, as I was doing this, I was like, and, and just looking for references of Satan. I was like, there's a lot of Satan talk on, on the church's website and, and, and also paralleling.

Julie Louise [01:25:01] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:01] With, with the journals of Ruby Frankie that, that Satan seems to be mentioned so much and, and devils and demons and all this, all these themes. So what I did was I, I went and did a search specifically for General Conference talks. And Julie, if you don't know what General Conference is, General Conference is a. It's a conference that happens every six months in the Mormon Church where the top leaders of the church, the, the apostle, the twelve apostles and the prophet, they, they, they speak to the people for. On Saturday and Sunday. And this happens twice a year.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] Worldwide?

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:36] Yeah, worldwide, yeah. It gets translated to multiple languages. It's probably one of the most important meetings in the church that happens twice a year. And so I just did a really quick search of Satan and found that there's a ton, a ton of talks or speeches that are specifically about Satan. Like there's, you know, let me, let me see, let me pull up the

John Dehlin [01:25:59] titles of the talks. Power Over Satan is the title of a talk. Satan, the Great Deceiver. Satan's Bag of Snipes. The Great Imitator. Satan's Thrust. Youth. The Temptation.

Julie Louise [01:26:13] That's Great.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] The Power of Spiritual Momentum. The Devil's Throat. The Power of Evil. What's your reaction to all that, Julie?

Julie Louise [01:26:23] I think the worst one is the one that's specifically for youth, but it's a bit of overkill. Like it's. They're scaring you into believing their religion or something. Like it's just, it seems backwards words.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Yeah. And then, Gerardo, you went and counted how many times Satan, demon or devil were referenced in the journal, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:45] Yeah. So Satan was mentioned 16 times, demon 15 times. Devil was mentioned 21 times. Jesus was mentioned 2 times in the eyes.

Julie Louise [01:26:54] Oh, twice. Do you know what that says a lot, though? Because that is where her thinking was. It was with the devil and not with Jesus. So yeah, that would make sense.

John Dehlin [01:27:04] And again, Mormon apologists and orthodox Mormons are going to say, well, this isn't mainstream. She was an extremist. And I would just say, number one, Visions of Glory. Lori Valo, Chad Dabel, preppers. It's everywhere. Stop minimizing this. But secondly, Mormon Church, you know how to fix this stuff. You denounce it, you deny it, you kill the doctrine. And by renouncing it publicly in General Conference and you say, stop it with demonic possession.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Stop it with satanic spirits possessing people. Like, stop it with the evil spirit stuff. That's not a thing. It's more mental health stuff. And, and, and this stuff should be dealt with. With, with. With licensed mental health providers, with psychologists, with licensed clinical social workers, with. With master's level psychologists. That's how you deal with this sorts of stuff. It's no longer doctrinal, it's no longer theological, it's no longer to be taught. That's what the church needs to do. And if it doesn't, it's not good enough to call this out of the mainstream. It's totally mainstream and it's going to continue to be mainstream. And these cases are going to keep popping up until the morning. Church fixes the problem.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:22] Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:28:23] Or get worse

John Dehlin [01:28:26] off your websites. Right? Take that garbage off your website and out of your church curriculum. Gerardo. Sorry, I'm ranting.

Gerardo Sumano [01:28:33] Just something you just said, John, reminded me of some of something important you mentioned about mental health and that and all this. That, that, this, the people in Mormonism shouldn't be thinking about a lot of this Satan stuff. And, and instead of channeling mental health. And I think it's important to point out that up until really recently, in the last couple decades, probably even more recent, it was that the church started talking about mental health. But before, probably when you were growing up. I know when I was growing up, it was not a lot of emphasis on mental health. More, more of the emphasis was like, this is Satan. This is something you can overcome yourself by reading scriptures, by being able to overcome temptation. And so that's, that's something that for, you know, over 100 years, the Mormon Church has emphasized that over, over mental health. Would you agree with that, John?

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm going to also just play show a quick little comment. Rebecca Loveless again writes in Visions of Glory, possession by a demon can happen the second you sin. The part where he witnesses someone watching porn and his head splits open and evil spirits pour into the person. Again, two things. That's one of the top selling books in Mormonism over the past 10 years. But more importantly, Mormon Church, you could denounce Visions of Glory. You can denounce it publicly and you can tell the world to stop buying it. And you can tell Tom Harrison or you know, John Pontius's widow to stop publishing it, excommunicate them and denounce it, but you're not. And so by letting Visions of Glory continue to, to be purchased and to be read and to be shared, you're allowing this problem to continue.

Julie Louise [01:30:32] Yeah, I'd say by doing that, they're supporting It.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay. Gerardo. This, this one we read just straight out, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:45] I I if you exit out, I, I added.

John Dehlin [01:30:50] Okay, perfect.

Julie Louise [01:30:50] This is actual conversations. Yeah. She actually wrote down in her journal, like conversations she had with the kids.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Okay, so that's what we're about to read.

Julie Louise [01:31:00] Yeah, yeah. This is a conversation back and forth that she had with her youngest son.

Abuse Documented in the Journal Entries

John Dehlin [01:31:05] Okay, so back to Ruby's journal. The devil doesn't like when you get your subject to anger, to truth. R, do you know I love you? Yes, ma'. Am. R, do you know Jody loves you? Yes, ma'. Am. R, do you know the Savior loves you? Yes, ma'.

Julie Louise [01:31:25] Am.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] R wants out of his out times. After our talk, R stays in the shade. I take my old mop water 7 go to R. I show R the water. Then I pour the water on R. It's hot outside. It feels good, doesn't it? An hour later, Jody takes R on a little walk to the pool. She talks on R, on how R has love twisted. If R likes something someone does, he calls it love. If he doesn't, he thinks it's not living. Jody then pushes R into the pool. R swam to the side. Jody pulled him out. Feel good? Feel refreshing? Yes, ma'. Am. I went out and this is disturbing everyone, so please practice self care.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] I went out a couple hours later and asked if he wanted the pool again. Yes, ma'. Am. Will you let E push you in? R laughed and then tried not to act too excited. R cooled off and went back to his spot. I put my hands on his face R, and this is disturbing. Have you ever heard someone talk underwater? Yes, ma'. Am. What's that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:47] Yeah, just next page.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] I know R is in there somewhere. And again, this is referring to demonic possession. If she's saying, I know R is in there somewhere, it means that R has reduced and some other demonic possession has come into R. And she's trying to get to R and talk over the demonic possession, which is exactly the sort of zombie thing and the light and dark thing that Chad and Lori were doing with Lori's children and others. So Ruby says, I know R is in there somewhere. I know deep down under all this anger, you can hear me. It may sound like. Like I'm underwater with you, but hear me, I love you. R got teary. Then I put my hand tightening over his nose and mouth. So correct me if I'm wrong at this point. Are they holding R underwater?

Julie Louise [01:33:42] So they did both. So they held him underwater. And now she's covering his mouth and plugging his nose to restrict oxygen. So they've done both in this entry, torturing this kid.

John Dehlin [01:33:51] They're, they're. Somebody's saying, john, calm down. I'm really sorry that I'm getting too excited. Thank you, Jay Green, for reminding me to calm down. Then I put my hand tightening because people don't like it when I yell. Then I put my hand tightening over his nose and mouth. Quote, I am coming to you in this water and putting my hands on your nose and mouth. The devil lies and says, I'm hurting you, but are. What am I really doing? You are putting oxygen on me. This is R. You are putting oxygen on me to help me breathe. Ruby. Yes, that's right. R looked like he wanted to beat me up this morning.

John Dehlin [01:34:34] And then he was intrigued and interested. And then two hours later, he drinks water from the hose, steals water. And I'm assuming what that means is they're depriving him of water and he's just trying to drink water because he's dehydrated. Is that right? Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:34:51] And he's, he's caught, caught doing that numerous times through the journals. She calls it stealing water from the hose.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] Others are writing that it's okay to yell or to get upset. So thanks for that support, everybody. I don't know which to do sometimes. Okay. It goes on to say, R is compulsive. He feels no remorse for his choices. He shuts down and says he wants to go to jail. R says he worships the devil and has no interest in changing. So that's them buying the teachings that the church and Ruby and Jody are teaching them because R admits that he worships the devil and he has no interest in changing. I want the outcome of being changed, but I don't want to do the work that it requires.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] R doesn't actually know what jail means. He has no comprehension of what throwing your life away means. I'll just say that Ruby and Jody know what jail means now. R just wants the immediate gratification of sitting in the air conditioned car ride to juvie. He wants stimulus. R is so back and forth. All right, that's a lot. Julie, what, what are your reactions to that whole thing?

Julie Louise [01:36:04] The whole thing is, is so horrendous. I think that was a big piece of the abuse that she admitted to in her plea deal. So the holding him underwater, the restricting him from oxygen by covering his nose and his mouth, the again, treating them like animals with dumping the used mop, dirty water on top of him, and it's Interesting in this part, I think, was that seeing Jody involved in it as well, participating and pushing them into the pool and it. It's. It's awful. It's absolutely awful.

John Dehlin [01:36:34] Anything you want to add? Reflections?

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:38] Yeah, I mean, just. Just same thing. We keep seeing the. This theme of demons and possession and I mean, that's how they can justify. In their heads. Torturing these children is just horrendous.

Julie Louise [01:36:55] I think it's interesting in that. That piece too, that our starts, like, at almost agreeing with her, but he's doing it, I think, to be spiteful. Like, he's like, yeah, I love Satan and I. I want him and I want to go to jail. And. And he says that throughout the journals that he wants to go to jail. And when he runs away, I think it was July 15th, he runs away. He leaves a message with Rock saying, jail, I'll call you when I get there, or something like that. Like he actually runs away to run away to jail. Like he wants to go to jail as opposed to being there with his mother and Jody. Who could blame him? But yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:32] Yeah, it reminds me to. That. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] Sorry, Julie broke up for me. Those last few words you were saying it reminds you of.

Julie Louise [01:37:44] I was just saying. Yeah, I was just saying that he. He actually tried to run away on July 15, and he left a little note in on outside because he was being made to live outside at this point, but he left a note in Pebbles that said jail. Something like, I'll call you when I get there. Like, he, He. He just wanted to go to jail instead of living with his mother.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:04] Yeah, this. And it reminds me to.

Julie Louise [01:38:10] To this.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:10] To the documentary on Netflix about. About the youth called the program. Yeah, the program. Have you seen it?

John Dehlin [01:38:20] I need to have. Yeah, I just haven't had the stomach to see it yet, but I know I need to.

Julie Louise [01:38:24] Yeah,

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:28] that. I mean, some of. Some of these kids who actually had been in juvie said that it was actually better in Juby. They're being in these programs.

Julie Louise [01:38:35] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:35] Which actually, interestingly enough, these programs were also started by Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:42] Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:38:42] Oh, I didn't realize that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:44] Yeah, the last episode is all about how it is actually Mormons who started

John Dehlin [01:38:49] the programs, these troubled teen centers. Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:38:52] Yeah, I didn't see the last episode.

John Dehlin [01:38:54] Yeah, it all ties back to Mormonism. Utah is the national center for these troubled teen centers. And they're.

Julie Louise [01:39:02] Well, like, I can see the. The correlation now that you just say that too, because one of the things in the program was like, they weren't allowed to make eye contact. They weren't allowed to speak. They had to look straight ahead. No fidgeting. And Ruby, Frankie does the same thing with her children. Like she says, there's no fidgeting. There's like. They weren't allowed to do anything. It was this strict, you know, just sit there and don't even move. And that's what they're trying to do in the program, too, at that school.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:25] Yeah, I think. I think John cut out for me. Did it for you?

Julie Louise [01:39:32] John's frozen. Yeah, John's frozen. And I think it's important to know, too. Like, in. In the journal, we're just. Just. We're just scraping, like, the beginnings of what she's listed in there and how. What she's done to these children. And as it gets. And you might agree, too, from reading them, but as you get deeper into the journals, you realize so quickly how much it's escalating. Like, how much she's gone from, you know, just these kind of little things like poking him or, I mean, pushing him in the pool. But then it. It gets to more extreme where she's tying him to her and locking him in the closet. And I. I don't know if we're gonna have time to go through all of that, but. But it's so disturbing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:12] Well, and the wounds, right? Like, they were horrific. I think I was telling John that in most of. Most of the coverage I've seen, people say, like, we won't be showing the wounds because they're. They're just too. Too horrible to show. And then I actually found them on the. On the police file, and I was like, okay, just. Just.

Guest [01:40:31] Just horrible.

Julie Louise [01:40:32] I didn't show them either, even. Just showing, like, where his. So for anyone that. That. That hasn't followed this yet or know what the two women were doing to him was they were handcuffing him or tying him with ropes, and he was getting, as you can imagine, chafing and rope burn and things like that. So the way they were treating the wounds is they would wrap him with Saran Wrap, and they had this cayenne honey mixture, I believe it was, that they would put underneath, wrap it with Saran Wrap and then tape it with duct tape. So when the paramedics, Medics cut it off, like, like you said, he had huge wounds, just awful wounds underneath of that from the restraints and what was going on.

Julie Louise [01:41:13] I showed the picture of the. Like, the taped ankles and wrists, but I. I couldn't show the. The open wounds. It was awful. It was awful. And. And seeing the pictures of his back and how malnourished he was. And it was a sin.

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:28] Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:41:28] While John's gone. Do you have the slides? Like, do you want to go to the next them up?

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:32] I just put them up. Well, let's go to the next one. Let's see. All right. There we go. Do you wanna.

Julie Louise [01:41:40] Are you able to even sum it up? Yeah. Do you want me to just sum up kind of instead of reading it word for word?

Gerardo Sumano [01:41:46] Because let's do that.

Julie Louise [01:41:47] I'm a little too familiar with them. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:41:49] Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:41:50] I think this. Yeah. So basically this one talked about. This is. I think this is when. When they talked about. Yeah. So this is when she gets into. I let R E know that everything's hard in the heart. They talk about fasting again. And she says at one point she tells them that they're supposed to fast for two days and that E has been fasting as well. And E is under the impression in this journal entry that it's about time to break the fast. And Ruby says, no, I don't agree with it. We're going to add another day. And E just freaks out. She refuses to get up.

Julie Louise [01:42:24] She's screaming. She's having a fit it. And then Ruby calls it. What does she say? Chance. Yeah, she said she calls them chance, that she's saying these chants. So what E was saying in this was my mom starves me and calls it fasting. My mom won't lift a finger and bring me food because all she does is lie on the bed and eat brownies. My mom says she's the most loving mom in the world, blah, blah, blah. If I can't ever go home, then what's the point in being obedient? I'm going to run away. So she calls all this. This dishonest chance, when I think we can all see it's extremely, extremely true.

Gerardo Sumano [01:42:59] Yeah.

Julie Louise [01:42:59] She also talks in this, which I thought was interesting. She talks about the fact that Jody's on a phone call when this is happening. So she doesn't want to, like, interrupt Jody's business phone call or whatever, but it's almost like she can't handle this herself. She doesn't know what to do. And then Jody does come in and eventually kind of intervenes and takes it over. And at the end of this page is where again, she talks about cutting E's hair off. She said, says, I cut more hair off E's head. We doused her with the dog wash. E said she wanted to run away. And Jody Told her she has no idea what is waiting for.

Julie Louise [01:43:31] So there's this theme throughout this of them shaving her head, cutting her hair, but also this dirty water. Like now it's a dog wash earlier with R. They're dumping mop water over his head. Like it's. They're. They're, you know, taking water away from him. He's not allowed to drink it. But then they dump this dirty water all over their children. Like it's, It's. It's so disturbing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:43:53] Something that jumped out to me was that thread from Jody at the end. Jody told her she has no idea what is waiting for her. That. That's just. I just can't imagine that. That's horrible. Also, I want to talk to you about this idea of fasting. That's a very common Mormon. Mormon doctrine. Actually, all Mormons around the world, they fast the first Sunday of every month. That's something that every. Every Mormon across the world does us. And. And like, they have this special Sunday, the first Sunday of the month, which they call the Fast and Testimony meeting. Well, like, everyone started fasting the day before they show up to church without having eaten. And then they all go up on the. To the. Basically just talk about, give their testimonies or talk about why they believe the church is true. And everyone has an opportunity to stand up and. And talk about that.

LDS Teachings on Fasting, Opposition, and Repentance

Julie Louise [01:44:43] That.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:43] And yeah, it's. It's called fast and testimony.

Julie Louise [01:44:47] I had no idea. Yeah. Are you allowed to drink water when you're fasting for that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:51] No. That's also interesting.

Julie Louise [01:44:53] Oh, like, nothing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:54] No, no, that's really healthy. No. No food or water or any kind of drink. It's.

John Dehlin [01:45:02] You.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:02] You're not supposed to do. Obviously, this kind of long, long fast for multiple days are not something that a mainstream Mormon would do. But, I mean, there's a. There's this idea on the Bible that Jesus fasted for 40 days, you know, and there's an idea in the scriptures of fasting for multiple days, which we're taught in Mormonism in Sunday school. We. We talk about these stories. So, you know, it's hard to. It's hard when you're trying to say, well, this. These are French ideas or not mainstream.

Julie Louise [01:45:34] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:35] And at the same time, Mormons are taught these stories in, In Sunday school at the same time as they're fasting every Sunday. Every. Every first Sunday of the month. You know, so it just gets complicated. Like, I remember when I went on my mission. Missions are hard. You know, you're walking every day, trying to Knock on people's doors, finding people to teach.

Julie Louise [01:45:56] And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:57] And sometimes missionaries will. Will go. Will try to fast multiple days because they believe that we. God is going to bless them and. And. And then they're gonna find people to teach if they're able to fast long enough. And I had companions who were fasting for two or three days while doing this, like, super. You know, I mean, you're walking in the sun every day from 9am to 10pm every. Yeah, it's just kind of crazy. And this is something that.

Julie Louise [01:46:25] And that's what she was making her children do. She was making them do all this heavy yard work and things in the sun. Like, when they found them, they said they were covered in blisters and sores and their skin was, like, almost just sheathing off from being sunburnt so badly because they were outside pulling weeds and doing all these things for hours in the crazy Utah sun while fasting and not drinking water. I mean, no wonder they were stealing water from the hose, which, of course, they termed it as stealing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:51] But, yeah, for sure. That's horrendous. There's. I added this slide. Let's see. Yeah, this is directly from the Book of Mormon, which I thought this scripture is really interesting because. Because something I. I should also say is that usually Mormons will fast. When they fast, it. It's not necessarily to. To repent all the time. Most of the time, Mormons fast because they're asking God for specific blessings. But here in. In the Book of Mormon, there's this idea of fasting to gain humility. And this is in Helaman 3, chapter 3, verse 35, this directly from the Book of Mormon sermon. And it starts saying, nevertheless, they did fast and pray often, and they'd walk stronger and stronger in their humility, which is. Is really similar to this idea that I think Ruby explicitly writes on the journal about fasting numerous times.

Julie Louise [01:47:45] Yeah, it's all about humility and being humble that she talks about it so many times, the both of them. John, welcome in.

John Dehlin [01:47:52] I'm back.

Guest [01:47:55] That.

John Dehlin [01:47:57] Let's keep going. Y' all are doing great.

Julie Louise [01:48:00] Yeah, we just did another entry.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:02] Yeah, we were talking about fasting and. And this idea of fasting to become more humble, which is in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:48:09] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's just keep rolling. This is good.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:13] All right, here's another. Here's another slide. And Julie, do you want to kind of just summarize it for us?

Julie Louise [01:48:20] What.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:20] What this is talking about Out. Oh, sorry.

Julie Louise [01:48:23] Sure. Yeah, that's okay. This one Was interesting because she's trying to tell him that she cares. And they get into the demon talk again. So she says in this one, she says that she took his face in his hands again. She loves doing this. And she says, I told him to send the demon a message for me. And he says, I will not give up. I will not leave. I'm going nowhere. Get out. And R is apparently releasing the demon at this point.

Julie Louise [01:48:49] And she's commenting that he's been very workable ever since. Whatever that means to her. She also says on this morning that our broke is fast. And this is when we find out what she's been feeding the kids. She talks a lot about feeding them the same thing all the time. And she admits in this entry that it was brown rice, lentils, black beans and chicken and water. When. When he's really bad, she'll hold the chicken from him and only give him the rice, lentils, and black beans. But she talks about that that's what she's giving him. And then she goes into this thing about a hornet buzzing around and that the.

Julie Louise [01:49:23] That our thinks the hornet is Satan. And she's asking if he'll become friends with Satan. It goes on about this hornet. And then she talks about E and that E breaks the fast. And she gives E, for some reason, cheesy potatoes, steak, water, oatmeal and water.

Julie Louise [01:49:39] And I think it's because the fast was broken. So she does talk, talk throughout the journal about giving them different food when they break the fast. And then she says that he's full of piss and vinegar. Matt is a hornet. And she doesn't call the shots. And that it's. This is where it gets disturbing. She says it's been 90 minutes since R8 since he broke his fast. And she says that she warned him the food would either encourage him to tell the truth or be defiant. And she claims he's defiant again because he poops his pants. And she says he. He tells her no. But then she claims that when he pooped his pants it was watery.

Julie Louise [01:50:12] And she says it shouldn't be watery because of the fasting. So she finds out. And he admits that he was stealing water yesterday. So she says it was three times and that ours lying has no remorse and that he's cheating.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:28] Wow. What do you think? That's. That's horrible.

John Dehlin [01:50:33] Julie, what's your analysis of that?

Julie Louise [01:50:36] The biggest takeaway in that is the stealing of water. That the poor little thing was going to the hose three times. And I don't know why he would admit it to her, but he does and admits he steals water. And she's blaming the whole Washum situation on him doing that. And again, like, one of the viewers said it could be because of malnutrition and the fast, that that's why he's having diarrhea. But I would be guessing from having that huge amount of food after fasting for however many days she was starving them and then feeding them that food. I know a lot of people with eating disorders, you have to start introducing food slowly or your stomach rebels. So I'm guessing it's something along that lines as well.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:17] Yeah, yeah. And we keep getting this theme of Satan and her asking the kid if she. She's. If he's pals with Satan. Yeah, I don't know that. And just this way of justifying torture again. And because for some reason, he's. His friends with Satan are being influenced by Satan.

Julie Louise [01:51:44] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:46] Do you have any reactions?

Julie Louise [01:51:48] I'm sorry. It's sad, too, that he's trying to tell her that, oh, Satan's gone now, and that, you know, he's more workable. Like, he's almost like. Like he. He comes in and out of fighting her, trying to fight her and then being like, oh, my gosh, okay, I'll just admit to this and. And let's move on and. And fix me or whatever. Like, it's. It's so sad.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:07] Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:52:11] All right, let's go to the next slide.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:14] All right, give me one second. Give me one second.

John Dehlin [01:52:19] Are you adding the text to these as we go, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:22] I. I didn't add it to this one, but. But this one will have. It will. We're only reading one paragraph, and I. I think I'm gonna have Julie.

John Dehlin [01:52:33] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:33] Yeah, to us. That's okay.

Julie Louise [01:52:36] I wish I had have had you when I went through these documents, because I was trying to read her handwriting the whole time. So it's so much easier when you kind of sum it up.

Gerardo Sumano [01:52:46] Yeah. So here at the very end, this. I think this is important part that we were wanting to talk about says they will think they won. I mean, she's talking about the children. They will. They will think they. They got what they wanted. They will relax and pop. We will drop them like hot potatoes out in the desert. Their new home. You're gonna get. You're going to get exactly what you asked for. And then on the very next base speech, it says, oppositional force is required for growth, development, maturity. E and R have never experienced oppositional force. They're very weak minded.

Julie Louise [01:53:32] Yeah. How disturbing is her writing? Pop in uppercase with all those exclamation points like saying, oh, we're gonna, you know, make them think everything's great. And then bam, we're taking them out to the desert and here's their new life.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:46] Yeah. And yeah, for sure. And I think something that came, came out that was interesting to you, Julie, when you sent me this, your notes was this idea of oppositional force. And that's actually a very Mormon theme or, or teaching that there needs to be opposition in all things. That's part of the Book of Mormon. It's a scripture in the Book of Mormon. Mormon. And it's a theme that's actually talked about a lot in Mormonism. And I included a slide of, of one of the apostles today giving a talk in general conference called Opposition in All Things. And in the little summary of one sentence it says opposition permits us to grow toward what our heavenly Father would have us become. So almost, almost very similar words is using. Yeah, yeah.

Julie Louise [01:54:40] Again, I had no idea. I, I just assumed all of this was fanatical thinking is this is the way you'd want to view it. I, I didn't realize it was part of the actual religion, but yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:54] Yeah. Let's go to the next slide. And this one talks about

Guest [01:55:04] foreign.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:05] We'll talk about.

Julie Louise [01:55:06] Oh, this is, yeah, this is the one where she talks about them. Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:11] Do you want to summarize it, Julie?

Julie Louise [01:55:14] Well, I just noticed the beginning part because this, I had questions when I first read this because she talks about enr. Have been pals long before this life. So yeah, throughout this, there's, there's kind of periods where she talks about, like I said, oh, this is the whole mother part too where she, she says she understands God knew I would take my responsibility to mother seriously. So she says that's why these two souls were given to her, these weak souls and that they're fools and she would kind of convert them and fix them. So I didn't know if that was part of the religious belief as well like this, you know, past lives and, and being put into bodies. But evidently from listening to the two of you today, it definitely is.

Gerardo Sumano [01:55:54] Yes, for sure. And I included, there's. In the next slide, I, I included a couple pictures and, and a screenshot from the, from the church's website today that talks about the premortality that John explained earlier. You know, this idea that we, our spirits existed before this earth and that actually before the earth was created, you know, Jesus presented His plan of coming to earth to save everyone. But then also Satan presented his plan when Satan's, when Satan's plan was not chosen, he, he took out one third of the host of heaven or one third of the spirit children of Heavenly Father along with him and, and convinced them to rebel against God and they were cast out to earth birth to and like John explained earlier to, to tempt us.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:51] And that's their job today. And so when Ruby's talking about her children being friends with these demons that are possessing them earlier, you know, they're, that they were friends earlier in, in another life or their premortal life. That's what she, she's talking about that she was, that we were all with, with Heavenly Father Satan and all of his hoes that were, we were all together. But then they rebelled and they were cast out of heaven. So, yeah, totally. 100% mainstream Mormon belief right from it had no idea.

Julie Louise [01:57:28] Yeah, I just, I, I, I have to share this because I thought this was funny. For the picture you just had up, one of the viewers commented Stephen King right in the front. And it so looks just like Stephen King in that picture down below.

John Dehlin [01:57:40] Yeah, it does.

Julie Louise [01:57:42] I was like, oh, it is. Yeah.

Guest [01:57:44] True.

John Dehlin [01:57:45] Yeah, that's awesome.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:48] All right, let's go to the, the next one. We don't have that many left. But this one's also interesting. Do you remember this one? Julie, can you, do you want to summarize some of the things that you thought were interesting? This one's the one I just have. Breaking the bonds.

Julie Louise [01:58:07] Oh, yes. And this is the one where she goes into descriptions about what exactly she wants these children to do. So she talks a lot about the physicality and saying, and I'm assuming this is what she wanted to do when she moved to Arizona. But she says, especially in this, she says, she always calls it begin physically doing good farm work, lifting boxes, extorting energy or extorting. Ex. Exhorting energy, I should say exercises like jumping rope, milking cows, weeding a garden, digging trenches. Satan cannot be where there is good. So she talks about which, I mean, yes, gardening. You know, you almost feel closer to God in your garden, I guess is what she's getting at.

Julie Louise [01:58:49] But that's not what she's doing to these children. They're doing it literally for hours on end in hot sun while fasting or no water. And like it's, it's crazy, but she talks about hard labor is the only way to kind of get rid of these demons or Satan. That's in Them. And then she comments that it doesn't work for her own children like she specifically says, but it doesn't work for E. R. But yet she's still doing it and wants to move them to Arizona to do even more of it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] Raising my kids. I don't think this is particularly Mormon, but I certainly believed, let's get them out in the garden. Let's get them out mowing the lawn. Let's get them shoveling. And teach your kids hard work, good work. They'll be more responsible. They'll learn hard work. It'll prepare them for life. I don't think that's particularly Mormon or Christian or religious. Right, That's.

Julie Louise [01:59:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] Yeah. So in this case, it's, it's. It's mixed with these teachings of Satan and obedience, you know, takes it to the next level. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:52] If you remind me of this idea that, that, that I, I was taught was growing up in the church that, that Satan encourages people to be lazy and that people who work hard. People who work hard are. Are usually, you know, not what Satan want or not doing what Satan wants. And I actually found an article and on the church's website called my recovery room. And this had a little bit of a sad story of. It starts talking about this girl who was 70, 17 years old when her mother was found out that to be. To have breast cancer.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:34] But then on, on the paragraph, on the second paragraph, it talks about this idea that she became lazy and careless with chores, schoolwork, work, and, and her church calling. And then on the next paragraph, he talks about how Satan was working hard on her, telling her that she should feel like a burden. So she's talking about being influenced by Satan while at the same time, you know, being lazy, careless with chores. Yeah, we'll work church and church callings. I, I think that's a theme that I was taught in Mormonism that, you know, like, like Satan will encourage you not to do your church calling or whatever you were asked at the church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:14] And so, yeah, I, I don't know. It seemed a little bit like to have a little bit of a Mormon thing. What do you think, John?

John Dehlin [02:01:23] Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Just like all the others.

Guest [02:01:27] Yeah.

Julie Louise [02:01:28] And then they just take it to the next level. So instead of weeding their own personal garden, she drove them out to a cemetery and made them weed the whole cemetery.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:36] Oh my God.

Julie Louise [02:01:37] So. For hours. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:39] Yeah. This next slide has some other themes that I don't, I don't know if. Julie, you can also try to summarize this one's. Where let me just add this one talks about refusing to be the children refusing to be obedient and following, following Satan. But there was some interesting things about Jody and, and Ruby eating pancakes while the children were not.

Final Journal Entries and the Youngest Child

Julie Louise [02:02:16] Yeah, so this one was hard to read. This was a lot about E, the youngest daughter. So she was talking about that E woke up and Ruby just doesn't like how she's acting, saying she was crying and whining and things like that. That. So she was trying to make her do all of these punishments and one of the main ones that they love to do with the kids was making them carry boxes of books up and downstairs. And in this one she gets her to do apparently two sets of boxes. So I don't know how many trips that is, but she gets a five minute break in between.

Julie Louise [02:02:50] So she talked about that he was doing it at first and, and was fine. But then after the break she started whimpering and didn't want to do it. So then she, she continues to almost punish her more. So she says, you know, I'm going to give you heavier boxes and I'm going to help you find relief, but you have to, you know, do the things I'm telling you. You have to be obedient. You can't listen to Satan. And then she continues on basically saying that she's going to make her sit out on this bench. I guess it's in like a park bench out in the yard.

Julie Louise [02:03:20] And this is when she's telling her, you know, you have to sit there, you can't fidget, you can't talk, you can't take your hat off, you can't do anything but sit there. And if I see that you're not doing this, you're being disobedient and that Satan again. And I'm going to bring you back in and you have to do like boxes. And so while, while she's out there sitting on this bench and doing these things, they're in there eating pancakes like enjoying their, their breakfast while she's out there and they're watching her in the window. So I guess she was fine for about an hour according to the writings.

Julie Louise [02:03:49] And then after an hour her, she basically says to, to E, oh, you're fidgeting again now. You're being disobedient. And she brings her back in and tries to make her do these boxes again and he's losing it. Like she's screaming and crying and it's awful. It's awful. All weather eating pancakes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:05] Yeah, and I added a slide. When I was going through the evidence and the pictures that the police. That the police released,

Julie Louise [02:04:17] I.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:18] There. There's the pictures of what the children look like. Right. And there's one picture of. Of the back when, you know, they took a picture of his back and how emaciated he is. And I did a slide where I just juxtaposed it to. To Ruby and Jody's entry. And. Because they're talking about the brownies and the pancakes. Right. That they. The Jody cake mix.

Julie Louise [02:04:45] Yeah. The shelf of cake mixes.

Gerardo Sumano [02:04:47] Yeah.

Julie Louise [02:04:48] And there's so much. They have it on the counter like it's overflowing with food. And they're fed these bland diets, if they're fed at all. Like, it's. It's awful. And the neighbor commented on the clothes that AR was wearing. Like, it. The clothes were just hanging off of him. Like they were too big for him, but they were also the size of him and how little he was, and. It's a sin.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:12] Sorry, John. You're muted. No.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] Okay, harder. If you can put that photo back up for just a second there, it looks like there's, like, little scratches or scars maybe where she poked him when she said she was poking him. Or scratches or scars there.

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:33] So, anyway, I just wanted to. To call attention to that as well.

Julie Louise [02:05:38] Possible other side, I think, also shows that this had been going on for a long time. Like the journals, I don't know if we mentioned, but are from May until August. And he tried to run away the first time in July. I think it was July 15th. And then the second time was August 30th, when he. Instead of just running away, he actually thought to go to the neighbor's home. But this was months of mistreatment to those poor children.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:02] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] Just horrible.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:06] There's one more, a couple more that I wanted to show of the. Of the slides. I'm sorry, one second. So this one. Let me see. This one's talking about darning darkness.

Julie Louise [02:06:23] Darkness. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:24] And I think it talks this. This idea of repentance as well. Is that right, Julie?

Julie Louise [02:06:31] Yeah. And. And referring to her children as the spawns of Satan in this one, which, like, it just. It's. It seems that it's getting. It's getting darker. In my opinion, this. This journal entry, this was, I guess, July 19th. So this is after he had tried to run away. But she talks a lot about the accidents that he's having, the lying, the steel. Like he's. She's talking, in my opinion, much worse about her children than at the beginning.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:58] Yeah. And. And she talks about, I mean, in. Around these idea of darkness exposing to light. She's talking about repentance as well. And, and we. I mentioned, you know, the doctrine or the teaching of repentance in the, in the LDS Church. And I wanted to show just one screenshot from the, The. From the LDS Church website. Just this is directly. Again, it was taken today, the screenshot about repentance being painful. And it's. It talks about. It says elements of repentance. Repentance is sometimes painful process, but it leads to forgiveness and lasting peace. So this idea of repentance being painful or, you know, when you do something bad, you. You have to suffer or it's going to be painful to repent. Is 100 something that Mormons are taught.

Julie Louise [02:07:50] Yeah, but she definitely believed that. The two of them say that numerous times. The journal entry that you just had up to was talking about how E was in the closet. So she was saying that he is, like, screaming and won't stop at this point, like, they've escalated. The children have escalated their, in my opinion, fight, I guess I want to say, because they're getting more difficult to control for Ruby. And she talks about that in the next few entries.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:19] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And there's. Sorry, John, were you gonna say something for the.

John Dehlin [02:08:26] For the next slide? I think we should read it because I, I.

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:29] I think reading these helps sometimes get the point across more than describing them, just to really get people the feel of what. What's being said. Is that okay?

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:37] Yeah. John, do you want to read it? This is the last. This is the last one. Do you want to read it?

John Dehlin [02:08:42] Yeah, sure. Do you want to show it? Okay. Oh, wait. What about the July 23rd one?

Gerardo Sumano [02:08:51] Let me see. I'll look. I'll look for it right now.

John Dehlin [02:08:54] But do you want to read too previous? It's too previous. Just go back to

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:00] one sec. Sorry.

Julie Louise [02:09:01] Oh, like, reread the ones we've already seen?

John Dehlin [02:09:03] You mean did.

Julie Louise [02:09:05] There it is.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] Have we not read that one yet?

Julie Louise [02:09:07] We.

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:08] We just went through it. We just explained it, but we didn't read it. Do you want to read it?

John Dehlin [02:09:15] No. Okay.

Julie Louise [02:09:16] Where she talked about the darkness needs exposure to light.

John Dehlin [02:09:19] Okay. Yeah. Okay, that's fine. Yeah, let's go and read the last one. All right, so this is the last entry. August 27, 2023. It's Sunday. A visited for a week last week. I picked her up last Sunday the 20th, and took her home to Springville on Friday. And that. What does that say J and J.

Julie Louise [02:09:46] A and Pam. So that's Pam Bodger.

John Dehlin [02:09:50] 20 boxes and took them to a storage shed in Springville. A gave her two weeks notice. What is the next one? Is that R?

Julie Louise [02:10:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:03] 22nd to the 25th. Peeing and pooping. He is out of control. He is defiant, abusive and mean. He refuses to do what he is asked. Just when I think we found a technique that will work. R digs in and fights harder, willing to try anything that would grab his attention. As if she hasn't tried enough. I whipped him with a belt yesterday. E2. She peed all over Jody's garage floor, screamed at her and lied to her. She who's out of control. Ruby says she is out of control. Obviously we know who's out of control.

John Dehlin [02:10:40] E seemed to give me her attention. After the whipping, she swept the garage with some muscle and mopped it. Did I read that right? She did a good job. R increased his defiance. Like, I think this gives a really clear sense of the trajectory of where this is all headed. This is absolutely ending up like Chad Daybell and Lori Valo. You know, Chad's wife, Lori's kids, Lori's ex husband. This is leading in depth death. If it hadn't have been for that courageous kid. It's R. Right. Who.

Julie Louise [02:11:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:22] Who escaped and got help and got the police involved. He saved his own life. He saved his sister's life. And he's a hero in all this.

Julie Louise [02:11:32] Yeah, I agree. And there's an entry just a little bit before that one. That one talked a lot about E and her kind of her reaction and how she was fighting. But there was a couple entries before that where they talked about our. And that I guess they had been making him stand.

Julie Louise [02:11:49] And she talks about the fact that he's whining because his feet are so swollen from standing for so long that he's in agony. And she's saying she's comparing him to a heart attack victim. Saying it's like a heart attack victim complaining about a splinter. That if his soul is rotting from Satan, why is he worried about his feet being sore?

Julie Louise [02:12:08] But that in this app, in that entry, they talked about Jody treating him. So I guess his. His feet and things like that and ease feet from running on the. The gravel rock road with that cayenne pepper and honey mixture. But she talks about him being put in a. Locked in a closet and him screaming and crying and defecating on himself and how bad it was getting. And this. This was just days before he ran away. So I think it was escalating. And finally he was like, I'm out. I'm tapping out. I'm gonna try and get out. And that's when he got the courage up to leave.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:43] Yeah. Something that's important to discuss as well.

Julie Louise [02:12:47] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:47] We know that up until a certain point, the kids had. Had been indoctrinated into these ideas. Right. Like, it took the police a lot of hours to. To convince the girl to come out of the closet where she. Where they.

Julie Louise [02:13:06] Yeah, four hours. And the first thing our said when he went to the neighbors when the neighbor was on the call with 911 is our said, this is my fault. Like, he. He wanted them to know, like, I did this. This is my fault. I'm bad. And. And again, she wouldn't come out of the closet. She wouldn't even eat until they kind of coaxed her and made her feel more comfortable. But it took them four hours to get her to stand up and walk out of the closet.

John Dehlin [02:13:29] Yeah.

Julie Louise [02:13:30] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:33] Well, these are all the slides that we have. But it's just horrible. And I think it gets worse. Like we mentioned up until the point where. Where R is able to. To escape, but it's just horrible.

Julie Louise [02:13:49] Yeah. And then to hear the phone calls, like the prison phone calls with the beginning with Ruby and Jodie buckling down and acting like. Like, you know, we were doing this for God. This was. They were possessed. We were. We were helping them. And then now Ruby seems to have changed her tune in the.

John Dehlin [02:14:06] Also, they were victims. Ruby and Jody both are like, they're out to get us.

Julie Louise [02:14:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:10] People are trying to stop us. These kids these days, you know, you can't. You can't even discipline a kid without, like, yes. You know, intervening like there was misunderstanding. And I think, you know, previous episodes, especially when. When the verdicts came down on both Ruby and Jody, when they gave those statements, I felt like Jody was so off.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] But. But, but, but Ruby's statement seemed so contrite, seemed so sincere, that I wanted to give Ruby a lot more of the benefit of the doubt. And I have to say that now, reading her journal and hearing her phone calls and hearing her videos and audio recordings, I. I almost start to feel like she's just putting on an act and saying whatever she needs. I agree to whoever I agree the audience is. But I feel a lot less sympathetic and I believe Ruby's apologies a lot less now that I've read her journals and. And heard her jail cell calls, etc.

Julie Louise [02:15:19] She even says in. In one of the journal Entries she talks about this dream that, that Jody Hildebrand had and telling them they have to, like, lighten up or stop the physical punishments of the children. And this is when the kids feet were, were a mess and things like that. And she writes in there about Jody, like, treating these wounds and, and wrapping e feet from one of the things that they had done to them. And she says, you know, Jody cleans these wounds, and I don't believe it should be happening. So she, she disagrees with Jody helping her daughter. Like, it's, it's crazy. And I also think that not only is Ruby playing a role right now, knowing what the parole board's going to want to hear in these phone calls, in her plea deal statement, but I think Kevin Frankie, unfortunately, in my opinion, is also playing the role.

Julie Louise [02:16:06] He supported her even after the police told him what happened. The very next day, he's telling Ruby, I'm devoted to you. I'm here for whatever you need. I love you. I know you. And he's also, in October, I think it was putting money in her commissary for phone calls in her account. Ruby says, you can have the kids if it'll help you get the, or have the house. If you can get the kids back, it might help you. So I think they know the game they're playing right now, and I think they're playing it very well, in my opinion.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:35] Wow. Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin's Role and the Church's Responsibility

John Dehlin [02:16:38] Julie, do you have views on how complicit Kevin is or isn't, how culpable or responsible Kevin should or shouldn't be in all this? Do you have thoughts on that?

Julie Louise [02:16:48] I'm a little on the fence with that, to be honest, because some of the, some of the conversations with the police he had, I almost feel like Jody and Ruby were able to manipulate him. But I also think that he's extremely manipulative as well. So I know he was right in there during the eight Passengers blog that they had. I know Kevin went right along with Ruby, believed everything she was doing. When you hear him talking about Jody's possession, he believes all that. He talks about how educated he is and that he sought for his own eyes.

Julie Louise [02:17:19] So I do think there's. There's a little bit of both. I think he would do anything and everything for Ruby. It sounds like he was almost wrapped around her little finger. But I think he played a big part in it as well. And I think he's extremely, extremely manipulative, especially with the children and his older children.

John Dehlin [02:17:40] And then. And then, Julie, because what we wanted to do was kind of focus on, you know, the Mormon aspects of this whole thing. And I think this I get is that this has been a real education for you and understand I'm going to just go back to where I began, which is sharing with everyone what I'm calling the Mormon doctrinal Lego building blocks that helped create Ruby, Frankie, Jody Hildebrandt, Chad Daba, Lori Valla, Tim Ballard, Julie Rowe, and so, so many others. That Mormons are super special. That they're saved for the last days. That these are the end times, that Jesus is coming. That somebody is being prepared to usher in the return of Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:18:23] That God loves you, but God can threaten, punish, torture or kill you. And that. That's love. That's. That we're all spirits that are. That spirits can inhabit our bodies. That the dead can communicate with us. That when we have feelings or thoughts, that can be either God telling us that what we're doing is right, making Chad or Lori or Ruby or Jody think that God is approving the thoughts or feelings they had or this belief or teaching that evil spirits can possess us and how that leads to all this. This craziness with Jody and all this abuse and torture with the kids. That people have power, men have power to cast out evil spirits or to tell us what we should do with our lives.

John Dehlin [02:19:07] That we should be exactly obedient to the church or our parents. That all this pressure around sexual purity and porn and masturbation, how that drives people crazy, and then these ideas of repentance and confession and fasting and contrition and suffering.

John Dehlin [02:19:26] If you see those doctrines and teachings, which I think we showed demonstrated our current practices, and I know I'm putting you on the spot, and I'm not asking you to condemn an entire religion because we love the Mormon people and we know that the Mormon Church does a lot of good, but what are your conclusions around how much you're now perceiving the Mormon doctrine and theology informed? Jody and Ruby, and whatever conclusions you draw, what do you think is required of Mormon Church leaders to kind of stop this stuff from happening again? I just want to give you the floor to sort of give your verdict as an outsider judge now that we've kind of made our case.

Julie Louise [02:20:17] Yeah. And I'm gonna even add to that as not just an outsider, but only knowing what I know about the Mormon religion from social media and television and. And programs like that. But I think. And I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing, but I think my view has Completely changed. I know when I've been doing some lives on YouTube and my tick Tock channel, whenever I talked about this, I would almost defend the Mormon religion, like say, this isn't the Mormon religion, this is extremists. This is. Because that's what's being portrayed in the media to me and to others who don't know about the religion.

Julie Louise [02:20:52] And I've got to say, after listening to you tonight, seeing the, the, the clips that you've shown and explaining kind of deeper the beliefs of the Mormon religion, I don't feel that way so much anymore. I don't feel that this is this huge outlier and I don't think it's that big of a jump. I do think it takes, takes maybe some mental health issues or, you know, some, some manipulating from someone or, you know, some, some other outside play maybe to push them to the limit that Jody Hildebrand, Ruby Frankie, Lori Valo took this. But I don't think it's that big of a jump as much as I thought it was before.

Julie Louise [02:21:30] After hearing all this and knowing that some of these things aren't just what Jody Hildebrand, Ruby, Frankie, Lori Valo, all these people were preaching. It actually comes from the, the documents that the Mormon Church believes. And I think as to your point of what the leaders need to do, I think you said it perfectly. Why aren't they coming out and saying like, we don't believe this. This isn't part of our religion. This is, you know, extreme. We don't want this book. You know, come. If, if this book is so popular that you were talking about, and if so many people are reading this, the Visions of Glory, and if so many people are reading this, especially like Lori Valo and Ruby Frankie and taking it to that extreme, why haven't they come forward and said, this is not what we believe.

Julie Louise [02:22:13] This is evil. This is, you know, the opposite of what our thinking is. Like they should be, I feel, embracing the good side of their beliefs and their structure when in fact a lot of this just seems evil and, and nasty, like saying God can torture and it, it, it, I just, I can't understand it. I think it's completely changed my views today.

Gerardo Sumano [02:22:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:39] So the Mormon Church leaders should do what, based on what you've seen today, Julie, what should the Mormon leaders do, in your opinion?

Julie Louise [02:22:46] I think they should do what you, I can't remember the word that you. Excommunicate. Is that what the word was? Is that what it's. So the people who are writing like, like this. Denounce them? Yes. Like denounce all of it. The book, the people that were following it, anybody who was coming forward and preaching this kind of belief system, like Jod Hildebrand. Why would they not come? And, and having her in the church when she had connections and everything, when you watch connections was leading to this moment when we discovered what she was doing, like everything is, is horrible in her teachings of how to treat children and marriage and sex and everything else.

Julie Louise [02:23:28] So why would they come out and denounce that as opposed to bring her into the church as a counselor and you know, giving advice to these leaders like it makes no sense. And especially now after it's been discovered and they're in jail, why wouldn't they come out now and say like, whoa, we didn't know this was happening. You know, we shouldn't have have had her in as council, but it's crickets. They haven't, they haven't said anything about it.

Guest [02:23:52] Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] What about with these teachings that we've showed you are core Mormon doctrine? What, what do you think would make sense?

Julie Louise [02:24:01] I think 2024, like these need to be changed. I, I, or, or I, I don't even know if you can change them. I mean they're probably deep seated beliefs right now, but, but so many of those are so inappropriate and I, I just, I, they go against everything I believe and everything I believe that a God would, would think and want, want their followers to believe.

Guest [02:24:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:27] Gerardo? What? Do you want to add anything?

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:30] No, I think she said it perfectly. I agree, I, I agree that these things should change because I mean otherwise this is going to keep happening, Happening.

Guest [02:24:40] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:40] And we keep hearing stories, stories keep coming up and, and I just can't imagine of the cases that we don't know about.

Guest [02:24:48] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:49] This was so public because Ruby Frankie had a huge YouTube channel and that's why a lot of people know about it. But imagine kids in, in homes where like their families are not big YouTubers and, and just can't.

Julie Louise [02:25:04] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:25:05] You know, they don't have the opportunity to, to have their stories exposed.

Julie Louise [02:25:10] I actually interviewed, oh, I was just saying I interviewed a police officer that was involved in the Ruby Frankie situation in Utah. She had been let go for a number of reasons, but she, when I was interviewing her, talked about going into homes and what she was seeing in Mormon homes. Like she said there would be posters and pictures all over the wall of how children need to behave and, and it was abusive like, like you don't eat if you do this, this like she said, it was it. It is so common and so rampant. And she said all the police officers see it. The majority, she said in her area were Mormon police officers. But she said they'd go in the homes and see all of this and see how the children were being treated and it's not considered abuse.

Guest [02:25:54] Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:56] Yeah. Who knows how many fundamentalist prepper Mormons in Idaho and Utah and Arizona are doing things like this to their kids? That like you said, Gerardo, because they're not YouTubers. Nobody knows. We know that Childhood Protective Services were notified multiple times about Ruby and Kevin and how they treated their kids and nothing ever happened. We know the family members of Ruby tried to notify and get the word out. And I just think the Mormon Church has a responsibility to denounce these teachings, these teachings to denounce, to clarify to its members that they need to stop teaching or believing that Satan inspires and influences people, that God believes that love is to torture and punish and kill people, that your feelings and thoughts are the Holy Ghost or God or Satan.

John Dehlin [02:26:53] They need to get mental health people involved, involved more. Stop these insane teachings about masturbation and pornography and sexual purity. That doesn't mean we're pro pornography. It means that the way the Mormon Church is dealing with pornography and masturbation is just making. It's creating monsters like Jody Hildebrandt, because she is by no means the only therapist that's been abusing her clients every month now another Mormon therapist that was recommended by the Mormon Church is found to be a pedophile or abusing their clients. It's happening every single month in Utah, Arizona and Idaho. A new therapist comes out as abusing as. As teaching that can cure people of homosexuality, pornography and masturbation.

John Dehlin [02:27:39] And then it turns out they're. They're literally abusers. And all this garbage about the end times and Jesus is coming. The one mighty and strong stuff with Avraham Gileadi. The Mormon Church just needs to. To come out in general conference and denounce all these teachings that are leading to so much. Because do any of us.

Julie Louise [02:27:58] They feel that way?

John Dehlin [02:28:00] Yeah.

Julie Louise [02:28:00] But do actually feel that way?

John Dehlin [02:28:02] Do any of us think that this is the last time this is going to happen? That Jody and Ruby and Kevin and Tim Ballard are. Are the last ones?

Julie Louise [02:28:12] Or I think they're the first of many, in my opinion ones.

John Dehlin [02:28:15] They're the first ones of many if the church doesn't fix this. So I think one of the big

Julie Louise [02:28:21] problems, I think one of the big problems, especially after Covid and everything that happened is I think people are looking for guidance and spirituality more than ever. And I think that it's creating this kind of extremist view of certain things. And because they're getting so invested in whatever the religion or the spirituality is that they were following, it's creating people like Lori Valo and, you know, Ruby, Frankie, and we're seeing more and more of it. Like, it's the way our world is right now. Like, we want guidance. We want to know, you know, we're here for a purpose, and they're just taking it to a whole new level based on teachings.

John Dehlin [02:29:01] Yeah, absolutely. Really quickly, while we've still got 3, 500 people in the live, please, like this episode. Now, if 3,000 of you like this episode, YouTube's gonna push it a lot more. And please, everyone subscribe to this channel. Also subscribe to Julie's channel, both on YouTube and on TikTok, but also subscribe to Mormon stories. It's gonna really help the algorithms. Julie, would you mind telling everyone again what your TikTok channel is and your YouTube channel, what you do you. So people can support you as well?

Julie Louise [02:29:37] Sure. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:29:37] Sorry, I meant to do that.

Julie Louise [02:29:39] So that's okay. So basically, I cover a lot of true crime. Anything that's big in the news that piques my interest, I kind of run down the rabbit hole and dig into it so you don't have to. I also cover a lot of celebrity gossip and things like that. Anything that piques my interest is what I cover. I'm Julie Louise 1975. Or I. My title is the Recap with Julie on YouTube here or on Tick Tock. So I try and post everything on both platforms. So whatever you're more comfortable with is where you can check me out and subscribe.

John Dehlin [02:30:12] And do people donate to you, or do you just get paid through ad revenue and sponsorships and stuff?

Julie Louise [02:30:18] So I'm in Canada, so I don't get any money from my content on Tick Tock, unfortunately, at all, but I do. Yeah, I know. But I will. I do get some revenue from. From YouTube, so on Tik Tok, I would. From, like, subscribers and things if someone wanted to pay to subscribe, I think. But no, I don't get anything from my content, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [02:30:37] Or do you have, like, a Venmo or do you have a PayPal or, like, any of that stuff?

Julie Louise [02:30:43] I don't yet. I'm fairly new with the whole YouTube and. And kind of how it works. So I'm. I'm in the middle of setting that stuff up.

John Dehlin [02:30:50] It seems like it's time to move to the United States, Julie.

Julie Louise [02:30:55] As soon as I hit a million followers on on TikTok, which hopefully is going to be in the next month here, it's going to kill me knowing that I could be making so much money if I was in the United States from the creator fund. But sadly I'm not.

John Dehlin [02:31:05] You know, Brigham Young, the second Mormon prophet, declared Salt Lake City to be the place. So maybe Salt Lake City is really good here. No, boarding is.

Julie Louise [02:31:15] I'll be the next moving to Utah.

John Dehlin [02:31:17] And lots of true crime, Julie. Lots of true crime here.

Julie Louise [02:31:20] True. I'd be right in with it. Yeah. Two of the biggest faces I followed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:25] Stuff. All right. Well, Julie, thank you. We loved having you on. We're going to follow your work. Please come back and let's collaborate.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Julie Louise [02:31:33] I would love to. I would love to come back. This was, this was extremely eye openening and insightful and I appreciate you bringing me on. So thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:31:43] Okay, I'm gonna ask maybe to Julia to paste the links to her stuff right now in the chats. I also want to thank all our donors. So much of what Mormon Stories does is, is thanks to donor monthly donors. So thanks to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations make this possible. If you want to become a donor, go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. Gerardo, any final words?

Gerardo Sumano [02:32:06] No. Well, not really, other than thanks Julie for coming on. I, I, I had the idea to invite Julie. I mean, when I saw that she had a almost a million to Tik Tok subscribers, I was like, there's no way she's going to respond to me. But she did super fast and she was super excited to come, of course. And I wanted to invite her because every time I watch your videos, I'm fascinated by them. I've been a big fan for a while and, and you talk about these themes as if you were an expert in Mormonism, which I was. It was crazy for me to find out that you have were a never Mormon. So it was. And this has been really fun, for sure.

Julie Louise [02:32:46] Oh, I appreciate it so much, you guys. I've had, I've had a great time. I've learned so much.

Guest [02:32:50] Thank you.

Julie Louise [02:32:51] Except how to, except except how to post my, my channels in here. I do what I just tried.

John Dehlin [02:32:59] Well, Gerardo, thank you so much as well for making all this possible. We couldn't do this without you. You do so much for us, so thank you. Gerardo you're welcome. And thanks to Julia who does our time code show notes in her shorts and does co production. Thanks to Maven as well for her post production and modding the chats. And Brooklyn to do who does our editing in our board. All right, everyone, be kind to each other. Be good to each other. Mormon Church, please clean up this mess. Check out Julie Louise 1975 on Tik Tok. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.