Jesse Hildebrandt on Mormon Stories Podcast

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is March 4, 2024, and we are really honored and humbled and grateful to have back on our show today, Jesse Hildebrandt. Hey, Jesse. Hi.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:00:19] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Oh, it's, it's, it's my pleasure. I'm sure those who are joining us know who you are, but for those who don't, Jesse Hildebrandt is. Jesse Hildebrandt goes by they, them pronouns. Jesse is the. Do you say niece? What do you say?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:00:38] Yeah, I mean, the, one of the terms is nibbling, but you can, you can use niece, it's fine.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Okay. Nibbling your niece. To, to Jody Hildebrandt, who obviously not only was arrested and charged with multiple counts of child abuse, but recently has been sentenced to at least four years in prison and potentially I think up to 30.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:01:03] But yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Oh, go ahead.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:01:05] Oh, yeah, no, it was, I mean, according to the charges, up to 60. But because she is a first time offender, it's like the maximum is 30 years.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] Okay. Yeah. So, yeah. So, Jesse, as most of you will know, they came on Mormon Stories podcast several months back and told their, their experiences experiencing abuse by their niece, by, by their aunt Jody. And it was a really important episode. It was meaningful to so, so many people. Hundreds of thousands, if not over a million views, I forget. But it's certainly been a well watched episode, impacted many people. And since then, Jody Hildebrandt's story, along with Ruby Franke's the Eight Passengers mom, who also was imprisoned and found guilty and pled guilty. Since then, the story's taken the nation by storm. Several news outlets have covered this story nationally, internationally. I think at least a few documentaries are in the works. But most importantly for our audience, I think there's just a lot of people that care about you, Jesse, and who are just really eager to know how you're doing to learn about how things have gone for you since telling your story. And then there's a lot of people that have questions about your resilience, how this has been for your health and for your healing and recovery. And I know that you, Jesse, really wanted to talk about healing and growth as a major emphasis for today, as well as talking about your thoughts on all the legal stuff that's happened and maybe other legal stuff that could still happen. So without any further ado, Jesse Hildebrandt, welcome back to Mormonstories podcast.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:03:11] Thank you for having me again.

Tattoo Artist On The End Of The Episode

John Dehlin [00:03:13] Okay, so where I, I have ideas of where to begin, but I want you to kind of lead wherever you want to lead. So are there any, are there any things you want to say up front or share?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:03:26] I mean, the after effect of coming on the show the first time was, I mean, the risk of sounding dramatic, life changing. I mean, the, the amount of stories and messages that I have received, thousands and thousands of messages of people, unfortunately, relating to my experience. And it's just been such a humbling and beautiful experience. I feel so surrounded and so supported in ways that I didn't know were possible. So thank you to everyone that has listened to me ramble for three hours in the last episode and for everyone that has been so supportive and has been interested in this and curious and enraged by this.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] Like you said, I'm sad and happy to hear that so many people reached out because even though we don't want to know that or believe that abuse is so ubiquitous, we know that it is, especially within a Mormon context.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:04:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] And so when people can give voice to those who have been abused and, and, and, or receive comfort or inspiration, that's a good thing.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:04:54] So, yeah, it's the amount of stories that were, some of them very, very similar and just, I mean, I couldn't read them all. It was, there's so many and I, I couldn't respond to them all. I, I, when I had said on the previous episode, I'm like, yes, my inbox is open, please. I had no idea what I was getting into. I had no idea how many people would you, I had no context or concept of like, what that interview was going to be or what it was going to be like afterwards. But know that anyone that did reach out and if I didn't respond, know that, like, it still meant so much to me.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Yeah. There comes a point where you just can't, you literally physically can't respond to everything.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:05:41] Yeah, I, I, I never experienced anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] Well, I, One of my, I have to say one of my favorite moments in the entire episode was when we shared your Venmo account and people started donating to your Venmo account. That made me really happy. But I also loved plugging your tattoo expertise. You do tattoos in Seattle and then you say, you know, you mentioned that you sometimes come to Salt Lake. Do you mind just sharing a little bit about if people did come to get tattoos from you and if so, any stories or experiences you want to tell about that?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:06:24] Yeah, it's been, it's been so, just shattering in the best way. Like everyone that has been so Generous and so supportive and so kind. And I have had people come out and get tattooed and it's been just so surreal. Like the first couple times that happened, it was just like, it's so bizarre and like the best way of like, knowing these people know this part of me in such like a. Such a personal way, but I don't know them really. It's just. It's a very strange, surreal experience. But every person that I've tattooed that has found me via Mormon stories has been just such a delight. It's been so incredible and it. The world is so small and connective and even though social media has, you know, it's a love hate relationship, I think for most of us, the way that it connects. It connects us is just so beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] Did. Did. Were there like Mormon themed tattoos or just. Just.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:07:28] I did one of them that was. That was Mormon themed was. I did a queer like lesbian pilgrim couple that was like, you know, like very like FLDS hairstyles and stuff. That was really fun and blasphemous,

John Dehlin [00:07:46] but yeah, that's fun.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:07:48] There was. There's this one woman that has come in multiple times. I absolutely adore her. It was her first tattoo and she had recently left the church and I think it was. I think it's been healing for both of us. She's probably around my mom's age and has just been so maternal and like, very, very healing to be able to experience that connection with her. So it's been. It's been really, really amazing.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Well, we'll. We'll have you mention your. If you want you. Where again, we'll have you mention the end where you do tattoos and if people want to visit. Did you ever come to Salt Lake or. Not yet.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:08:29] I haven't yet, no. It. It hasn't worked out in the. In my scheduling so far, but I, I want to soon.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Okay. All right, well, if you want maybe one place we can go next is just to talk about the, the legal process as it relates to, I don't know, the state of Utah and, and Ruby and Jody and kind of if you want to take us back to after their arrest, what, you know, what your thoughts are, what your experiences were and how that ride was for you through the. Whatever statements they made, through whatever came out in the press, all the way up to their semi sentencing, which is not totally completed yet.

on the Jody Smith case

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:09:15] Yeah, yeah. I mean, the sentencing is a joke. I was. It was really after that came out and when I realized that that's like what Utah legally does is like push off second degree felonies onto parole boards. It's so enraging. Yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been a roller coaster for sure. Very, very emotional in, in both positive and very painful ways. It's very strange and surreal to be. I think I've said this before, but to be so overwhelmed by something that is also so validating and vindicating because. And so healing. But I was just doing an interview earlier today and something that kind of came to mind is this, like, image of healing is also incredibly painful. Like, surgery is kind of the easy part. You know, you're an anesthetic, you're not really conscious. You're the thing, you know, like the surgery is happening, but then the. After. The aftercare is where the pain is. So there was, there's been a lot of reprocessing through this trial and through. Or through the. I guess it didn't go to trial, but through all of this hearing, Jody's lawyer, when she, when she pled guilty, when her lawyer came out and made that statement, it was, it made me. It made me sick honestly, to hear her quoted saying that she loved those children and that she only wanted those kids to focus on healing and that they hope she wishes them well. And it was just such a slap in the face and just so enraging. And I thought it was the thing that also made it so enraging is like, to me, it was such an obvious scam. It was so, like, obviously like her just trying to be manipulative, to like, I don't know, seize onto any sort of, like, story of remorse that she can so that the parole hearing will go or like at this point, the, the sentencing will go as easy as possible. But then I had people in my family message me that were shocked by that statement and they had to think long and hard about whether or not, like, what they felt about it. And to think that people in my family that know her, that know how deranged and harmful and destructive she is, if they are almost fooled by that, thinking about all the other people in the world that could also be fooled by that was just terrifying to me.

Jesse on His Family's Response

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Yeah, I think that's one of the most common questions I receive for you, Jesse, is people saying, well, once Jody was arrested, once you came out with your story once, there would have been lots of opportunities for your parents, for your siblings, for extended family to both know your story in, in depth if they didn't. But also to, to be, to have your story somewhat vindicated by the judicial process. Did any reach out to you, Apologize, validate, you know, any of that? What was your family's response? There's going to be multifacetets, I'm sure, to your family's response. What are you wanting to share about the various family responses you may have received both from your Mormon stories interview, larger media interviews, and then just the judicial potential. Validation, I guess.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:13:00] Sure, yeah. I mean, it's been. This has probably been the most painful aspect of this whole process. I mean, I've had 14, almost 15 years to talk in therapy about Jody, but to continuously relive this part of me of like my parents still to this day not showing up, that's been, that's been, I think, the hardest thing to process. My parents still have not contacted me about this at all. They've sent me a happy birthday text on my birthday last month as if nothing happened. As if the last eight, seven, eight months have not occurred at all. Which is very, you know, on par for this, you know, the silencing culture, this culture of pretending like nothing is happening, this disempowered culture. I've had a couple cousins reach out and apologize and show solidarity. I've had a couple siblings in various degrees apologize and, and show some, show support. I mean, it's, it's so complicated because it's not like. I wish it could just be like, oh, in this moment, everything is healed. But everything that led to this moment, all of the, you know, 14 years of behavior and familial culture that has allowed for this to happen doesn't just go away overnight. And this very, and I'm sure you are very aware, like within the, this patriarchal familial structure of, you know, the nuclear family is everything. Parents are everything. Honor thy mother and thy father. I think it's very comp. I think it's very difficult for my siblings to know how to navigate this. I mean, this is kind of my own interpretation of it, but I don't know if they know exactly how to proceed with that, but I know that they at least couple of them are, are trying in their way.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] It is a little bit, I guess, mindboggling as a parent to think about not trying to get together to try and show up for you, show support for you, apologize, mend and heal. Yeah, it's hard to imagine not showing up for your kid.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:16:07] I mean, I think I don't really understand my father very well. I have less empathy for him, but for my mom and understanding being conditioned female, especially within a high demand religion, the disempowerment that women face within those structures is just so immense. And so I have a lot more sympathy for my mom and a lot more grace, like patience for her. But if she were to admit and come to me now and support me in this, that what that would entail is to then admit 14 years of backlogged behavior and invalidation that she participated in, not to mention all of the things that she allowed to happen and okayed. And I. The depth of shame that the Mormon Church just thrusts upon people, upon people in general and upon women is just so immense that I don't know if my mom has the capacity or the space to even begin that process. I think that she is born and bred into that the culture of put on the blinders, act like everything is fine no matter what. And I mean she has. How old am I? 31. She's 61 years of that, you know, like she is. That's a lot of deprogramming and a lot of deconditioning and relearning and the, the. I mean, I, I don't have children. I know my mom is not a vicious person. I know she's not a malicious person and I can't imagine the shame that she would be feeling. And I, so I think from how I, how I make it make sense in my head is that this is just the safest. I mean, it's incredibly disappointing and an incredibly. I mean it's, it's devastating to me. I, I just did an interview early like I said earlier today and in preparing for that, I've already done one interview with, with these, with this news program, but this one has felt scarier and I realized that like the fact that my parents have not contacted me or like that whole. Feels so much more painful than anything else. So. I mean, Mormon, this is not a, an uncommon experience within the Mormon community, within, within any high demand religion. You know, this casting away of children that do not fit within the mold, that do not fit within these confines of what it means to be Mormon. A religion of perfectionism. And for so many people, their, their shame and their, their guilt and their wounds are too great to be able to see past that.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] I guess I, I know that healing isn't linear. I guess I'm wondering, I guess there was your state of, of healing and acceptance prior to Jody being arrested and prior to Jody being convicted and sentenced versus having people hear your story and getting all the support, but then also maybe not getting some of the reconciliation or even the justice that you wanted.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:20:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Are you even able to say right now, sort of net. Net. Whether you're overall feeling better about things now than you were before the story broke?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:20:29] Yeah, it's. Oh, it's really. It's really complicated. I mean, overall, yes, I feel. I mean, there has been so much. So much joy in my life over the last seven months. There's been so much connection, so much learning to receive comfort, learning to receive support from strangers and community and friends, and this sense of surrendering into that. That I've never experienced, and I don't think I could have experienced had it not been for this, like, very kind of extreme situation. I have connected with so many people around the world. I. I feel like there's been a catalyst in a lot of ways for, like, the healing that, like, healing that I didn't even realize was possible. That was kind of this undercurrent after. After everything kind of came out after Jody was arrested. There was, like, kind of this moment that kind of created this subconscious healing on top of the very intentional work that I've been doing over the last several months. So, yes, it's a net positive, for sure. That being said, it's like. I don't know if you've heard the phrase type 2 fun, but it's the type of fun where maybe in the moment's not super fun, but then after the fact, it's like going on a long hike or getting tattooed or things that, like, maybe really hard and difficult in the moment, but you're so grateful for them afterwards. It feels like it's been a lot of that, which I'm. I mean, I'm. I obviously love Type 2 fun, so it's good.

Jessi on Jody's Statement at Her Sentencing

John Dehlin [00:22:27] What has been. Well, let me ask you this. I don't. We weren't able. We haven't spoken to you since Jody first pled guilty.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:22:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Which was. Which was at least a month or two before the sentencing.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:22:42] I believe it was December 27th.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] That was. That's when Jody pled guilty. Can you tell us what you felt about Jody pleading guilty versus this going to trial? I know you've spoke about, I think, Jody's statement at. At her sentencing. What did you think about Jody's statement about why she decided to plead guilty? And would you have rather seen this go to trial?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:23:10] Yeah, sure. I don't know if I can say how I feel about that statement on air, but it's. I think it's complete trash. I think that you can swear. I think it's okay, 100%. Like, which part?

John Dehlin [00:23:32] Which part?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:23:33] Like all her statement about why she pled guilty of, like, how she just doesn't want to put those kids through more trauma and that she just cares about the kids and that's why she's doing this and she's taking accountability and, like. No, that is the only reason I believe that she took the plea deal is that because it was so obviously in her self interest to do so. I think. I mean, this is just speculation. I mean, I. It's. I think it's pretty. I. I think I have reason to believe this, but I think they had so much more on her. I think if they had would have gone to trial, she would have gone down in a blaze of glory. I think that there was financial incentive for her not to, like. For her to plead guilty. I think there was incentive all over the place for her to plead guilty. And the evidence was so stacked against her that, like, if this went to trial, she would have lost. And not only she would she have lost, but I think she would have lost in a very fantastical way. So for her, I think the statement that she made about her caring about those children was 100% just a redirection for this new. You know, because now she's just focusing on becoming as likable as possible so she can manipulate the parole board into getting the shortest sentencing as possible. That is 100% what I believe. I don't. She doesn't care about those children. She was torturing them not a couple months ago. You don't do that and then turn around and say, oh, I just care about. The reason I'm doing this is because I care about. No, that's not what happens. That's not. That's not how it works. Jody is a psychopath. And even the way that she. Like, during her sentencing, when she's apologized, apologizing, I mean, it was a joke. She. It was so. It was. She's. It was just. It was horrifying and sickening. Like, listening to her say things like, I'm sorry that these children didn't take well to our methods, or paraphrasing like, that is the most gaslighting, narcissistic form of an apology that I've ever heard. And that was another moment when I had family members reach out and. And they were so confused by the statement, by the way that she handled it. They were like, we don't understand why. Like, she says she's sorry, but she's acting like this. And it's like, we need to stop, like, ascribing a set of Morals that a, you know, a healthy human would have onto her because she's not going to act that way. She's acting in the way that a narcissistic psychopath would act. And so when you, when you look at her through that lens, it's no longer confusing. It's like it actually makes perfect sense. She's not sorry. She's sorry she got caught because I, and I've. There's been some, I've learned some information that I, I'm not at a lot allowed to speak about as of yet, but there's a lot more stuff about to come out about this and I'm just so grateful that she got caught. I wish it would have been 14 years ago and that these kids would never have had to go through this. And I am so grateful that she got caught before more children were severely abused.

Ex-Mormon on the Sexual Abuse of Children

John Dehlin [00:27:18] What do you want to share? And this may be, I don't know, flooding for you or for others. So let's be as careful or thoughtful as we can, both for your well being and others. At a couple points in this process, more details emerge. Early on there was the cayenne pepper and the honey related to the wounds of the child that came out. But over time it, it's been like handcuffing, like, like lacerations, the hog tying, the. Making them work outside in the scorching cement without shoes. Like pretty graphic details about the, the torture and the treatment. Is there anything you want to say about what you learned, what or how that was experienced by you, when you, when you learned it, or what observations you have about just the details that have come out maybe since we last talked?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:28:17] Yeah, I mean some of the, a lot of the details I didn't know until a little bit further on and some of them I didn't know until I was like going on air to talk about it. And then they did like an intro and said some of the details. And I mean it is, it is just sickening. It is, it's. I mean it's torture. She was torturing these children. And the thing that more so than the physical torture, the psychological and spiritual torturing that I know, that I know was happening just like at the same level. Like the fact that these kids were more concerned about her when they, when the police came, they were, they were afraid of, they were like curious. Like they were so concerned for Jody's safety, they believed that they deserved it. I mean the level of brainwashing and mind control that's taking place to, to have a child believe that is Just horrifying. And that this little boy was convinced he was going to jail. Like he was willing to risk jail in his mind than stay at Jody's. And, and it's, it, it's, it is so horrifying that this little, that these little kids had to find the strength within themselves to protect themselves, that they were forced to grow up that fast, that they were forced to be that strong. No child should have to, that should have to know what that feels like. And now all of the undoing and unlearning and relearning and reconditioning that has to take place for those kids to, to ever have some abnormalcy in their life to, to. I mean, and I, I was a, I was 16 when I went through this. And the level of destruction that happened in my life was. There's no way of qualify quantifying it at all. So to have a 9 year old, now 10 year old and a 12 year old go through this and to more. A higher degree than I went through it, I. And to have their mother side by side, like my mom was not there. She knew about some of it, I think, I don't, I don't know the le. Like the level of clarity my mom had on what was going on. But she also has the alibi of not being there physically. But to hear the things that these children were put through. And the thing that is so enraging is that this could have been stopped 14 years ago if people would have listened. The people that saw and did nothing, they are in my mind partly responsible for this. And I know it's more complicated than that. I know, I understand the level of disempowerment and fear and, and control that the church has over these people. I understand that. And they were adults that saw this abuse happening and did nothing. And because of that, and then when I tried to go to the cops, the cops did nothing. And when I tried to bring it forward in 2012, my family shut that down. Like there were many, many opportunities for this to be stopped and no one did anything. And the result of that is now these children have to live with this trauma for the rest of their lives. And it is just, it is so enraging.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] I'll ask you about your. Thank you for that. And I totally agree. I think we, especially within Mormon culture, I don't probably other religious traditions too. There's just this bizarre practice of silencing and punishing victims and protecting and empowering

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:32:57] and even promoting and empowering the pleasers. Yeah, it's this Mormonism breeds and empowers narcissists. It is, it is such a narcissistic religion. It's. They thrive in this environment because they know that, that their, their victims will be silenced. They know that no one can touch them. They're told they're special. They're told like, it's just, it's just, it's the amount of shame and like, you are special. That combo that exists within the Mormon community in the Mormon culture is just off the charts, and that is a breeding ground for narcissism.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] Yeah, that's so weird. Jesse, I'm. I want to hear your reaction to, to Ruby Frankie's statement at her sentencing. But before that, there were lots and lots of people trying to make sense. You know, let's just say there. I know that nothing's ever a binary, but one scenario is Jody is, is a cult leader. Jody created a cult, and Ruby is as much a victim of a culture within a cult. So Jody Hildebrandt's connection, cult within Mormonism, that's sort of. Some call that a cult within a cult. And then Ruby's a victim just like anyone else was a victim of Jody. And there have been many or people who've been victims of the Mormon Church or other, other cults. So there's one framing of Ruby as a victim, and then there's another framing, let's just say, on another spectrum, the other pole of the spectrum where Ruby is complicit or even more responsible because she's the mom. I. It. It. It's probably hard for you to come down on that, but I'd love to hear any thoughts or comments you have on that.

Jody Hildebrandt's Statement at her Sentencing

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:34:52] Well, I think this is a perfect example of what is one of the, the most dangerous ways of thinking from religion. This idea that there is a singular truth and a singular truth only is, I think, what causes the, this confusion. I think there's truth to both of those statements. I think that first and foremost, she is their mother and she's an adult and she's responsible for them 100%. I also do think that Jod is a cult leader, and I also do think that Jod is very good at brainwashing and very dangerous when it comes to that type of behavior. So it's, it's complicated because it's hard to hold both things as true at the same time, but I think it's really important that we do. So Ruby is their mother and responsible and she has to be held accountable. Absolutely. But the level of, of evil in the most secular way possible that Jody has, that she elicits and expels and creates in her life and in lives of everyone else. I don't think holds a candle. Like, I think that's very different than what we're dealing with with Ruby. I think Ruby probably was very primed in her. Like she was already pretty controversial in the way that she disciplined her kids. And I think that there's probably,

John Dehlin [00:36:27] I

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:36:27] don't know there this idea of like, you are special. I think Jody probably played into that with her. But I absolutely believe that Jody manipulated the, out of Ruby and, and her husband and so many other people. Like the, I think the thing that with Ruby is that Ruby had a platform and I think that's why Jody jumped on it. Ruby had a platform and she was, she was vulnerable to this type of attack. And, and so Jody took advantage of it. That being said, she's still, she's still 100 responsible for what she did to those children.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Yeah, that makes sense. What, what did you think about Ruby's? Because I, I mean the going to, to Jody's statement at the sentencing hearing versus Ruby's. Jody's was chilling because there was literally zero apology and like you said, just this chilling expression of this, this chilling expression of concern for the kids and a, and a, you know, you know, good wishes for their welfare, which just felt chilling and awful and gross and terrifying.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:37:56] We to me, no, she's a complete psychopath. It's, it is terrifying. And this, that is why right there is why it's so in like, it's so viscerally enraging and terrifying to know that her future is determined now by a parole board that will continuously, she'll have continuous like opportunity to plea her case, plead her case. And that puts the onus of responsibility onto the victims to continuously have to relive their trauma to make sure that she is kept in where she belongs away from anyone and everyone that's vulnerable. And I, I, I, I, I so hope that the state of Utah changes its laws. That laws are that whoever needs to be. Whatever needs to happen to, to change child abuse from a second degree into a first degree, whatever needs to happen to make that happen. I, I so hope it does.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:39:00] Because every time they get to go to like they get to have a parole hearing, those children, myself, all the other victims, but mainly those children will have to live in fear. Maybe they'll get out. Maybe she'll get out. And Jody, the masterful manipulator that she is, that's her favorite phrase that she just threw at all the time. Who knows? What, what if she gets, what if she gets to talk like whoever's on the parole hearing or the parole board, what if they don't understand what they're dealing with? Whether they, what if they don't understand how dangerous and terrifying of the person this is and that she gets out in four years? In four years in Idaho, you know, it's. It's 99, 99 years in prison for an abortion or for aiding someone having an abortion. Yet like you call yourself pro life, that gets you 99 years in prison. But to viciously torture children that are alive and viable, four years in prison, Are you fucking kidding me? I mean, it's just this, this is, something is so wrong, this idea, like, especially within the community, you know, the Utah conservative religious community of they claiming they're pro life, and yet this is the, these are the, this is the legislation that's, that exists make that make sense.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] So I guess, I guess, and I don't, I don't know much about, about the law is what you're saying, Jesse, that if, that if child abuse or child torture, whatever it is, was made a first degree felony, then they would have the option of either, you know, no parole, life, life without parole, or even death penalty. That, that's what would happen if, if they changed the law.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:41:04] Just so I, that's from how I understand it, with how it's been explained to me. Yes, that's what.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] Okay, so. So right now, under Utah law, Jesse could never get a life sentence. I'm sorry, Jody.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:41:15] Jody would never get a life sentence under the current legislation.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Thank you. I'm just trying to understand that. What, what do you think? What did you think and do you think about Ruby, Frankie's apology? It was sort of the opposite. She not only apologized directly to Kevin, her husband, she apologized to her kids. She was crying, she was emotional. She apologized to her bishop, to her state. She thanked her bishop, she thanked her stake president, she apologized to the judge, the jury, she thanked the attorneys, the law enforcement. Like it was almost like every possible buffet option in an apology. I, I tend to just take people at their word. I think I'm maybe a little bit gullible. Even sometimes if somebody says something, I tend to just accept it and believe it. There were lots of other people that are like, Ruby isn't sorry. You know what, what were your reactions to Ruby's statement at the hearing, at the sentencing hearing?

Ruby's Apology

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:42:13] I mean, it's hard to know, you know, what's going on in someone's head and in someone's heart, I am more prone to believe her. I think that she, I think that she is, I think she's having a very real emotional reaction. I think she's having a very real emotional response. I think that being away from Jody is probably having a very visceral response. Like she's probably having a very real kind of withdrawal effect is my guess. And in a similar way of like going off of drugs, it takes time. And then suddenly you're clear headed and you're like, oh my God, how did I, how did I even get here? Well, did I do. I'm, I'm, I'm sure there's some version of that that she is going through. And I think that she is a feeling person. I think that, I don't think she's a psychopath like Jod to the extent in which she is sorry. I don't know. Because she was also engaging in, in pretty questionable behaviors before her connection with Jody. And, and she was okay with pain as punishment and you know, her kids going without lunches because they forgot to pack their lunches or so it's, I don't, I don't really, I have a hard time completely villainizing her because of my experiences with Jody. And I know how powerful Jody is and I know how convincing she is and even to adults and adults are human too. So I still think that she needs to take accountability in the full extent of the law. I think that if she was really sorry, that that's what she would do. I think if you are truly remorseful, you would serve your time especially for something like that. And if, and if, and if she tries to play some sort of get out of jail free card because she's sorry, I, I, that's, for me, that would be a red flag, you know.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] Would it? Do you think it'd be okay for Jody to receive a more severe sentence than Ruby? Especially given the disparity in statements? Or should the statements even matter? Because statements can be made up or manufactured or faked. Do you have thoughts on that?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:45:08] I, I mean, obviously it's just my experience with Jody. I don't know Ruby. I'd never, I had never heard of Ruby until this all came out. Yeah, but given my experience and the things that I've read, the things I've seen on YouTube, the things that I've just witnessed, I try to, I'm, I'm really trying to approach this from a place of accountability versus punishment. I don't Our system of, of our judicial, judicial system and on our prison systems are so fixated and obsessed with punishment. And I think that just breeds more of the same. I think it just breeds crime and it breeds shame and I don't think it's actually effective accountability. On the other hand, you know, I think that is actually how like reformation happens. I don't think Jody, I think Jody is way past that. And so in that sense, like, I think there may be hope for Ruby. That's what it feels. It feels that way. And just from what I see, that's the conclusion that I, that I seems logical that there's still humanity left in her and that she can try, she could have like there could be restorative justice with her Jody. I don't think that's possible. I think Jody is a, A, a violent and dangerous person. That will never change. And I think given any opportunity to take advantage of anyone, she would. And I think that she, she has proven herself time and time again that she is a danger to society. And so I absolutely think that her, the, the, the appropriate reaction to who she is and what she has done would be considered more harsh because I think there needs to be more, I think there needs to be more safety precautions in place. I think if Ruby got out in who knows how many, you know, however long the, the parole board sees fit, however these children, I think the children should have a massive say in that. To me, that doesn't scare me. The idea of Jody getting out terrifies me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] I was stunned to see that Jody's house was selling for like $5 million in Ivan's, Utah. And if just her house was worth 5 million. Oh, how much money did she have in the bank and in other investments? Right.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:48:08] Oh, I mean Jody, Jody had, Jody had a lot of money. When I was living with her, Jody's home, she had a throw three story home in, in, in American Fork, Utah, like what, two streets down from the temple. I mean, and she had, you know, a convertible sports car like and a motorcycle and a, and a boat and ski jets and, and a. What are they called? What are they? An rv. Like, she's been doing very well for a very long time. So knowing how much wealth she had acquired by the time I was 16, I can only imagine. And that's to me that's like a major reason why I think that she took a plea deal. I think there was a lot of financial that she would have lost a lot.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:49:09] Had it gone to trial.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] But also just if, if Jody were Let out the things she could do with that money. There's things she could do with the money while still in prison.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:49:19] Well, that's what I'm. That's exactly what I mean is that it's in her best interest to maintain as much wealth as she can. She could get out in four years.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:49:31] And then in those four years, she's just, what, stewing and pissed and forming a vindictive plan of attack? Because that's the type of person she is. Yeah, that's hor. That. I mean, I still have nightmares of this woman to this day, multiple times a week. I. If she were to be, I, I would leave the country. I would leave the country if she were. If she were released.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] Yeah. Oh, wow. He leave the country.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:50:04] I mean, she is. Look at what she was doing to children that did nothing to her, that have done nothing to her but be children. If she's willing to do that to someone that had no power, What would she be willing to do to anyone that put her in. Well, she put herself in prison, but made sure that she was put away, Including those children.

Jody Smith on Being Punished for Going Public

John Dehlin [00:50:49] Yeah. It makes me so sad to know that anyone would potentially be punished for contributing to that justice being served. But that's exactly what could happen. I mean, best case is just that Jody would be legally vindictive and sue people for defamation or shut people down, cease and desist letters. But it could get. It could get much worse. I mean, imagination, really dark places.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:51:18] I, I, when, when she, When I first decided to go public, I remember I was. I was talking to her daughter, and I had this moment of just complete and utter terror come over me. Like, truly, I'm never. I, Like, I, I can't. I don't know if I've actually ever experienced this before of, like, I mean, I know this is very dark, but this, this, this feeling of, like, am I physically safe right now? Like, would she, like, could she kill me? And I, I remember talking to her daughter and just being like, am I. Am I crazy? Is this, like, do you think, do you. Do you think. Have you thought this? Like, you know, I was trying to, like, gauge my own sanity against hers, but, yeah, that's. I mean, she's terrifying.

Are You In Touch With Jody's Daughter?

John Dehlin [00:52:28] So are you in touch with. With Jody's children? Jody has two daughters. Is that right?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:52:33] She's a daughter and a son.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:52:35] I'm, I'm, I'm in touch with her daughter off and on. It's kind of a complicated relationship. I mean, it's not complicated in the sense of, like, the active relationship. But I think that we both. I mean, she was there when I was going through what I went through with Jody. And so there's not that many people that understand what Jody is and can do and how she embeds in you like a parasite. And I think I may have said this last time, but something that she said to me, Jody's daughter, something to the effect of, I. I can't be around my mom, because if she told me the sky was yellow, I'd believe her. And that is still, like, the most distinct way of explaining how powerful Jody is, because I felt the exact same way. Everything that she told me, everything that she did, I thought I deserved. I thought I. I was evil. I thought I was. These things that she said, I was hearing those little kids talk about how they thought that they deserved. It was just so, like, I know what that feels like. I know what that sounds like. To have that voice just echoing in your head that you deserve these horrific things because of. I mean, Jody could make you feel like you deserved it for anything. For anything that you did. Oh, you didn't clean that well enough. Oh, you took one minute longer in the shower. Oh, that's because you don't give. You don't care about people's money, and you are just using people. And you're entitled. You're entitled. You think that you can just use people's water. Like, she could. She had this. She has this ability to find anything to use against you, and she'll find the jugular. It's like she has, like, a radar detector. It's. Yeah, it's. It's something else.

Adam Paul Steed on Jody's Sentencing

John Dehlin [00:55:10] Thank you for sharing. I. I'm pretty sure I interviewed Adam Paul Steed after I interviewed you. Yeah. And that video meant a lot to a lot of people until we were forced to take it down, which I was super bummed about. I know that Adam attended Jody's sentencing, and Adam has been muzzled at times. And then lately, especially at the sentencing and after he's. He's opened his voice again. Yeah. But I guess I have a couple questions. Did you get a chance to see Adam Paul Steed's interview before it was taken down?

Adam Paul Steed on Jody's Abuse

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:55:48] I saw clips of it. I don't. I don't know if I saw the whole thing, but I. I definitely saw clips of it.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] And do you have a sense for the way that Jody dealt with married couples and specifically the way that she divided husbands from women, isolated the men, got everyone to accuse the men as being child abusers when. When most of the time they weren't. And then basically just wrecked marriages and wrecked so many men's lives. Are you familiar with.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:56:19] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Aspect of what Jody did?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:56:21] Oh, yeah, I am. I'm very familiar with that. And I mean, it's. She has this way of triangulating someone has to be the bad guy. There's always. It's like the. It's like, textbook. Like, there's the. The. The perpetrator, the victim, and then the savior. She's the savior. And so she. She finds the perpetrator, and it's usually the husband. He's the narcissist. Everyone's a narcissist. She. I remember, like, hearing her talk about her clients, and every man she saw was a narcissist, according to her, and that she was on the. She would say things like, oh, I'm on the front lines fighting Satan in the flesh with these narcissistic men. And so. Yeah, and. And once you paint someone a narcissist, you're seeing them through that lens. And I'm sure maybe there were narcissists. I mean, I don't know. Like, obviously, I'm not a professional, but that was very much the. I mean, that's what she did with me. She was a savior. I was the perpetrator. My parents were the victims. Like, this triangulation was constant in everything. And so, like, the. The separation of husbands. I actually, I spoke to. I think I can say this. I spoke to.

John Dehlin [00:57:46] Oh. Oh, so you spoke to Ruby's husband, Kevin, Frankie, or.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:57:51] I. I was emailing. Yeah, I emailed with him a couple of times. And I mean, that was the exact. The exact formula that he presented that happened to him. These men's groups, these. The separation, the triangulation, the. The. The. There's the complete and utter destruction of sense of self and self worth and understanding of how you fit into your family, like the family dynamic and into the. Like. You. You are this internalized and complete. Like this belief of complete. What's the word? That everything about you is. Is bad. There's not one part of you that's good. And that. And usually. I'm sure I. It seems to be. That's usually the. The husband in these scenarios, the woman, the. The wife is the victim, and Jody's the savior.

Jody on Her Love Life With Ruby

John Dehlin [00:58:54] Yeah, you. You talked a bit. You alluded to some of the. What I'm about to ask in. In our last interview. People are still trying to make sense of the nature of Jody and Ruby's relationship. And even the major networks are Trying to figure out if there was something more than just a business relationship or a close friendship. Of course, we're LGBTQ affirming on Mormon stories, and we believe people's private lives are their private lives. But there seems to be just sort of ceaseless questions, I guess, around wondering whether there was a romantic relationship between Jody and Ruby. And, and if you, if you have nothing to say about that, that's great, too. I was just curious if you thought about that, if there's anything you thought you might want to share about that.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:59:46] I mean, I have no idea what their relationship was like. I know there's. I know there's a lot of speculation about, about Jody, and there's been speculation, I think, her whole life. I can confirm nor deny what I know about, about her orientation. I know that queerness was a. An obsession of hers, people's sexual orientation, this obsession of being queer as being evil and being like a perversion, yet making statements. I think I said last time she made this statement about how her and her friend, it was so wild. She just, like, told. I mean, I don't know if she told on her. I. I don't know, but she said this thing where she was basically saying that if her and her friends had sexual connection, it wouldn't be wrong because they loved each other, but if gay people did, it would be bad because that's perverted. And I, I remember just being like, what. Like, that's just. That's what. That's just being gay. Like, yeah, gay couples love each other. That's why they are together. Like, that's so. I mean, I know there's a lot of speculation and I, I don't. I really don't know about Ruby and her specifically. I do, and I do know that she tends to have really messy, complicated relationships with, with like, women. She has like a. What do they call it? Like, with borderline personality disorder. It's like this, like, almost like a hyper fixation friend. I don't remember. There's like a name for it. Yeah. And I know that she's been diagnosed with. From what I've been told, she's been diagnosed with. With that as well. So I think she has like these really intense, hyper fixated, enmeshed relationships with women. Whether those bleed into romance, I don't know. But I do know that they are very messy.

Jody's Sexual Assault Lawsuit

John Dehlin [01:01:56] Yeah, I guess I get going to, Going to Jody's sentencing. If she is sentenced with the max, which is 30 years, that's pretty much life in prison. I'm. I Imagine you'd be. Feel more guilty about 30 than 4. I, I'd love to hear any thoughts you have on that. But also, there's got to be other victims. There's got to be other people interested in suing Jody besides Adam, Paul Steed or, or, you know, the state or Ruby.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:02:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] There's got to be opportunities for civil lawsuits. And then there's got to be a lot of other victims that. Because now they don't have to fear Jody as much or they fear. Feel like now they're safe to potentially sue her because she's more limited in what she can do. Are you. Are you aware of other lawsuits? Are you interested. Are you even able to talk about whether you're interested in. And do you have hope for other lawsuits kind of finishing the job that maybe the Utah parole board won't finish?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:03:08] I, I don't know of any active lawsuits, any other active lawsuits. I mean, I would love to take her down for everything that she is worth, if only to just, like, pay for therapy and school and all the things that I lost out on life because of her. That being said, I don't. I don't know if I could emotionally handle what it would take to act to. To bring a case against her. I don't know if, like, the, The. The. The cost versus reward would be. Not that it wouldn't be worth it, but I don't know if I could handle it. If I were to pursue it. I would. I would need help. I would. I would need. I would need help to do that. I, I hope that any victim of hers, whether they came forward or not, because I'm certain. I mean, I know that there are more. I've had stories, people telling me that they were DMS and emails of, of my parents went to her and then destroyed her marriage. I was forced to see her as a teenager. I, like, I've heard many stories of people that were very affected by her to the, like, you know, to different degrees, and not a single positive one. I have not heard a single positive being like, anyone coming into the defense of her. Like I've heard and it was before. Okay, so before. I don't know if this was before Connections classroom or not or. But before. It was before it like, really kind of blew up. I remember if you typed in Jody's name, it would come up on. It would come up like her therapy would come up on Google reviews, and it had like two and a half stars. And at some point in the last few years, she had that removed from Google so you can. When you typed in her name, connections classrooms came up instead. And that was like this, like, filtered, you know, veil that protected her. But I remember, like, yeah, like, her Google reviews were horrific. And. And she was able to, like, expunge that from the Internet, unfortunately. So, like, I know that there are a lot of people that have been affected by her, and I hope if there, if there's like a collective lawsuit that is, like, ends up forming, like

John Dehlin [01:05:47] a class action, like, yeah, there's like

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:05:49] a class action lawsuit. I will sign me up. And I'm sure many people would be willing to sign, like, sign their names off of that.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] Yeah, that. That's a good idea. You were, you were really great in talking about how Jody inappropriately had you work for her as both a client and a kind of almost indentured servitude. Yeah. And how you were able to witness that much of many of the bills that Jody was sending out were to the Mormon Church.

Mormon Church's Culpability in Jody Hilde's

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:06:27] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] Because the Mormon Church was both recommending people to Jody through bishops and elsewhere, but also funding a lot of this, quote, treatment or therapy. We. We talked a little bit about this before. I want to give you another chance if you've had any reflection. We've talked about Jody's culpability, Ruby's culpability. Where are you landing these days on the Mormon Church's culpability and all this, both in terms of its doctrine, its theology, and specifically its enabling and empowerment. And it's enriching. Jody wouldn't have 5 to 10, whatever, 5 to $10 million in net worth, I'm assuming, if it weren't for the Mormon Church. So I'm curious if you've had reflections on any of that.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:07:11] Oh, absolutely. I think the Mormon Church, the culture, I mean, but really, I mean, it's the church, the organization, I think is so responsible for this. Like, I understand that, you know, the everyday Mormon is not going to be like, the people. And. And I don't want to use the phrase that like, that they themselves use all the time. Like, people are imperfect and the church is perfect, but like. Or the doctrine is perfect, but I, I don't hold every Mormon responsible for this, of course, but the people that were in power, that were aware of her, that. That fed into her, that edified her, that deceived people by claiming that pornography addiction is a real thing, and then. And then using the church funds to. To heal, you know, to, you know, to use the. Like. It's like conversion therapy for pornography is so destructive. And is very much empowering women or not just women like people like Jody to have a voice of influence that she should never have had and the like. There's legal issues here too because I know I said this before in the DSM 5, pornography addiction is not a thing. It's not real. You, you cannot. According to the DSM 5 which is what insurances use to be built. Like you know, it's all based off of what's it called when you're with by on diagnoses. So what they would do is they, they would tell the client, hey, you have pornography addiction. Hey, Your son, your 14 year old son, you know, he's a porn addict. You need to go to, to Jody. Don't worry, we'll bill your insurance for depression. But, but we're gonna, we're going to use methods for pornography addiction. So there was a lot of deceit going on in that way as well. And it's just I 100 hold the church responsible. The church. Bishop Bangader, the per my bishop in American Fourth American Fork, I think it was the 8th Ward is what I remember. Bishop Bangader, he knew exactly what was happening. I had meetings with the Bishop, with Jody and my grandparents and he dead ass looked me in the eyes and told me he was trying to break. They were trying to break me like a horse. Like they knew what was going on. They've been funding and supporting her this entire time, giving her clients, giving her wealth and they're just gonna try and I think maybe that even played a part in the, in the plea deal. Like what? You know that I don't know if the Church wanted this attention and so I, I mean this is all speculation, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Church wanted this to go away as quickly as possible. Because if I think if they opened that door, that can of worms, a lot of skeletons would come out that the Church probably doesn't want people to know about.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If there's a. If, if, if it simply goes to the discovery phase where Jody, Jody Hildebrandt has to provide all the invoices and client lists and techniques and methods and referral sources that implicates the Church right there. So the Church wants this settled before any evidence implicating the Mormon Church can, can be revealed.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:11:02] I fully stand by that. I think that there's so much truth to that.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] Let me just also just ask you this. In addition to the Mormon Church supporting Jody, referring people to Jody and giving Jody so much money, apparently there's just the core doctrine that extramarital sex, sex before marriage, sex outside of marriage, and any same sex sexual activity, those are all sins. Next to murder, which doesn't just, you know, touch on pornography addiction and masturbation, but it's also what allowed you and others to be, you know, kidnapped and sent to troubled teen centers in Utah or put, you know, under the care of Jody, which then led to the abuse. And it's not just you, obviously, it's not just Jody's victims, but there's an entire troubled teen industry.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:11:59] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:59] Fueled at its core. You know, there's. There's drug use that concerns parents, but many people, you know, we had someone on Mormon stories recently. All they did was they had sex. This is a woman who had sex with her boyfriend at age 17, and her parents basically kidnapped her and sent her for months to a troubled teen center. But it's God, but it's rooted in this Mormon teaching that's in the Book of Mormon, that sex into murder.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:12:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:27] Which is next to murder, which.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:12:30] Okay, like, I'm not, like, I don't. I'm not trying to, like, argue doctrine, because I don't think it's true. I think it's all. But also, like, when they were talking about sex outside of marriage, they were talking about affairs. They're not talking about premarital sex. Like, that's, first of all, like, that alone is, like, so frustrating. But outside of that, like, the shame that. And I was. I was talking about this, about this this morning, actually. When you internalize this belief that sex is. Is second to murder, coffee and beer and heroin are the same. Showing your shoulders and having cleavage will get you raped. And it's your fault. And it's actually your responsibility to make sure that men don't think bad things about you. When you're internalizing this all in this, this narrative about yourself and how you fit into this, it's just, It's a breeding ground for this type of, like, punishment because you have no barometer for right and wrong. Like, your, Your. Your senses, your sensors are so skewed when you think something like having sex. I mean, one of the. One of my young women's lessons, I remember, she had a sucker, had that. Gave it to the first girl and was like, okay, now pass it down. That's you. That's you. If you've had sex and you're like, I think I was like, 13, maybe young, 12. I mean, I was like 12 to 14 years old when this, like, with this lesson. And at that time too. It was, I must have been, I must have been like 14 because at that time I had a friend who had had sex in that. Like that was a part of our group. And I don't know if they knew, but I knew. And it's like the shame and the guilt that these, these adults are just shoving down these kids throats for, for no reason except like this, this. I mean it's control. That's what it is. It's coercive control and, and going also talking about the, the, the very dangerous doctrines that are taught within the church. The, the doctrine of personal revelation. Like very literal personal, personal revelation and the structure of patriarchal, you know, your dad is the patriarch of your family. He received revelation for the family. Those two things are just a recipe for abuse. And the, and the rationale to support abuse. And that's what Jody, that's the thing, that's one of the things that Jody like used all the time was this, like, oh God spoke to me in a dream. And then if you have the doctrine to support that of personal revelation, you know, and moroni like ask and you shall receive or whatever, when that is taken to a literal, you know, definition. It's literal definition and implemented in a very literal way, you can get away with anything. I mean we've seen this time and time again. I mean I'm, I'm sure, sure you've seen under the Banner of Heaven. Elizabeth Smart. There's so many like, and those are the extreme ones but like the day to day smaller ones that you can just rationalize anything because of this doctrine.

The Problem With Personal Revelation in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [01:15:56] Yeah, yeah. And, and I think also a point I wanted to make is just like we talked about Ruby's responsibility versus Jody's, you know, your parents. As I, I'm, as I'm trying to remember your story, I'm pretty sure they were terrified that you would have sex or that you would have lesbian sex or whatever. And that's why they were willing to do something so extreme as put you in Jody's care, send you to another state to no longer be in their custody or care because they had been conditioned and terrified by the Mormon church that if you had sex you would then be committing a sin next to murder. So that's, that's one of the things I've been frustrated with some media outlets. They want to talk about the handcuffs and the honey and the cayenne pepper and the hog tying of the children, but they don't want to talk about, you know, they want to talk about the sentencing or Jody but they don't want to talk about the theology and the doctrine that's at the root of creating this. And now all the other perpetrators that are going to come later.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:17:03] Well, that, that. I was, I was, I was just talking. I was just talking to someone earlier today about this. I was leaving the interview I had done and I was talking to the person that I'm, I'm seeing and I was like, the thing that I'm so frustrated about with like the documentaries, the true crime stories that are about things like this is that they're all individualized. They're all these like very, you know, sensationalized stories that get a lot of attention. And it just kind of remains in this cocoon over here. But there's no string that attaches all of them. And it's like, what is foundationally and culturally allowing for these people to rise to power in a very consistent way to take advantage of these children or just vulnerable populations in general. And like, how do we get to that root so we can stop it from happening in the first place? Because until we get to that, this is going to be repeated. It may look different, it may have a different name, but it's going to be repeated. The fact that like Anasazi and all of these programs have been around for so long, all of these. Was it Compass Point? There was like all the schools in Utah where all of these like celebrity kids and non celebrity kids are sent to. And the amount of abuse, like with Paris Hilton that came out and talked about it like this is, this has been going on for so long. And because these stories are just individualized, it's never getting to the root of it. And if we want to get to the root of it, we have to have those uncomfortable conversations about the culture at large, about the culture that disempowers its people and to keep them in control, like the coercive control. Actually, I want to grab a book real fast.

John Dehlin [01:18:42] Yeah. And I'll just, I'll just, while you're grabbing the book, I'll just say that what's hard about the Mormon Church for the Mormon Church would have to change the Book of Mormon to change the, the doctrine of the passage that sexual sin is next to murder in, in evil. And as soon as the Mormon Church changes the Book of Mormon yet again in such a public and obvious way, it's, it's, you know, people are going to wonder whether Joseph was making the book up right. Or why would they change it?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:19:13] I mean, it's already happening. That's already like, there's the mass exodus of, like, of people leaving the church because of these. Like. Oh, actually, we're going to change this because it's. People are kind of like. Like, even, like, how the For Strength of Youth pamphlet. No, like, I guess like, now you can have tattoos and now you can have, like, second piercings. But, like, that was like, the most horrible thing you could possibly do to your body. And then overnight it's just fine. Like, are you kidding me? And. And people are picking up on this. They're seeing it. I know. I've had conversations with people that are still in the church, and they're like, wait, I thought God was, you know, the same today as it was yesterday's forever. I had a friend give me this or, like, let me borrow this book.

John Dehlin [01:19:58] Oh, yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:19:59] I don't know if you've heard of this.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] Oh, we. We've had Luna Lindsay Corbet in Non Mormon Stories. Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:20:04] Need to listen to her episode because.

John Dehlin [01:20:06] Oh, my God is non binary. They. Them pronounce, by the way.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:20:09] Okay. I have to listen to their. Their profile or their. Their. Their. Their episode. It's.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] It's like. It's actually like five episodes. It's so brilliant that we had to do it in, like, five episodes, but it's really good. Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:20:22] Oh, I can't wait to listen to it. This is. This is just changing. There's the connection. Because it's all the same, you know, the connection of, like, mind control. I mean, I know the word mind control is very, very loaded, but like mind control and brainwashing. It's. It's. When you get to the micro level and the macro, it's all of the same. And that's like. That is. Right there is what Jody is tapping into, and that's what the. The culture is just steeped with this. It's just so primed for this. And Jody saw it and was just like, sweet. Yeah, this is mine for the taking. Yeah.

Mind Control in the Church

John Dehlin [01:21:01] It's like kaching.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:21:02] Yeah. It's like, oh, I'm gonna. This harvest is wonderful. I'm just gonna have all these apples.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] Like, that's so dark. Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:21:11] But it's. It's also so true and so like, having. And I. I still. I think there is hope that there can be at least some shifting in the church, because the church isn't going away. It's going to be here. And so working within that to make at least some shifts forward, I think is important.

Jody on Parenting in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [01:21:36] What recommendations would you have to. If. The more. I'm sure the Mormon Church at some level is watching this interview. I know I'm putting you on the spot with this question, but do you have any tips or advice to the Mormon Church based on the experiences you've had and the life lessons you've learned, not just with Jody, but just having been raised Mormon and, and everything. What, what tips or advice would you give the Mormon Church if you could think of anything on, on the spot?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:22:03] Sure. I mean for a culture that is so obsessed with the nuclear family, I think that we need to have a rewriting of parenting, like a very deep rewriting of how we parent. And that's, that's more than just the Mormon Church too. I think that's like the collective at large. And I think there is a shift happening. People like Dr. Becky Kennedy, she is a, she's a psychologist focusing on gen. She like does like gentle parenting and internal family systems. She has a book called Good Inside that I recently read and I want to reread it because it's so good. It's a parenting book. But it's also really wonderful to use the tips and the tools for like reparenting in like somatic practices and whatnot. It's been really helpful and healing for me. So like the shift away from this top down authoritarian style parenting which is just again, it's like this microcosm of the collective, of the like the, the culture at large and, and, and starting more of like this bottom up of loving, just loving your children, supporting your children, listening to your children. I mean children are the most marginalized groups of people in the world because you have marginalized people and then you have the children within those marginalized communities. They are the most, not like unbelieved, pushed to the sidelines like they are, they are the most marginalized group of people. And so this, we need a shifting away from that mentality into, into love to loving children. We need to believe them. We need to stop thinking that they're just little adults. I think that's something that like so many people struggle with is that they look at a child and they're like, you're just a small little adult when their brain is a quarter formed. And so like teaching children how to self, self regulate how to like like a coach almost. I think the parenting style of coaching I think is a really beautiful concept of like teaching skills and teaching children to love themselves with kindness. I've been just kind of obsessed with learning as much as I can about gentle parenting. And the more and more I learn about it, the more I like I think that is the. That is the way of the future. If we want to change are present. Like, we need to focus on the next generation and teach them to love themselves and teach them to believe themselves, to stand up for themselves, to trust their experience, to trust their intuition. Because that, I think, is a big reason why these types of things happen, is that you have a group of people that don't trust themselves. They. They abandon their intuition, they abandon themselves, their values, their morals for this authoritarian figure. And in this case it was Jody, but in another case it could be someone else. This, like, this lack of critical thought, that is very much. It's like it's taught, right? Like, this is very intentionally, or it's very intentionally not taught to just like, turn. Like, just to trust whoever is in charge. And that. And the scary thing, I don't know if you experience this at all, but I know for myself. I. When I left the church, I kind of fell for a lot of bullshit. And I kind of like went from one kind. I left the Mormon Church and then I went to like, straight edge, like very, like into like anarcho punk, straight edge veganism. But I felt, I found I was still very much in the mindset of a singular truth, truth of a capital T. I just need to, like, I need to have an authoritary figure telling me what to do, telling me what to wear, telling what to listen to. It was like kind of like just a new dogma that replaced the old dogma because I was still. The programming was still the same. And so, like, I had to teach myself through classes. I had. I took classes on critical thought because I. I saw how little, like how I didn't have really any skill skills in that department. And now the more and more I learn about it, the more I learn about trusting myself, the more I do somatic therapy and somatic work. The more I learn about my intuition, the more I learn about, you know, building trust in myself. The more space I have for other people, the more space I have for other people's experiences, the less I want to control things. Like, it's just that I think is the. I think that is the only way forward. Forward.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] Yeah. Yeah. The idea, I love that idea of parenting. That one way I've heard it described is parents aren't like carpenters that like cut up wood and make things. They're more like gardeners where they. The seed is what the seed is, and then the seed gets planted and the parent can help nurture and provide the conditions for that seed to grow into whatever it was meant to grow into. But the parent isn't the one deciding what it grows into. The seed is growing into what it was always meant to grow into. Does that make sense?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:27:21] Absolutely. And there. There's a. There's a video on Dr. I'm obsessed with Dr. Becky Kennedy. If you don't know who she is, I highly recommend looking her up. She is a joy. I absolutely love her. But she uses this analogy of a coach a lot. And there was one video in particular where she was saying, like, you know, if your child kept missing a. Like a layup in basketball, you wouldn't go tell that child to go to its room. Like, if the coach was like, go to your room. You're bad because you keep missing this layup. Like, you'd be like, that's really stupid. Like, that doesn't teach the child anything. That just teaches them that they're bad. Like, you would be. You would be frustrated with that coach. But if you replace the layup with anything else, with any other sort of life skill, that's a very common, like, go to practice for parents of, oh, you having a tantrum. Go to your room. But that doesn't teach a child anything. That doesn't teach them any regulation skills. It teaches them not how to feel their emotion. If anything, what it does is it put. This is when they. This is the beginning of when people start abandoning themselves. They learn, I'm bad. My reaction, my. My emotions are bad. I'm going to shove this down. I'm going to ignore what I feel. I'm going to ignore what I think. I'm going to, you know, do whatever I have to do to have mommy and daddy love me. And that just continues into adulthood. And those creates, you know, these. These people that deny who they are, deny themselves, and then have no ability to hold space for other people. Because I think that also is happening. These parents are seeing their children that are acting in such authentic ways when they themselves have no contact or ability to access their own authenticity. And so there's projection, there's jealousy, there's anger and shame that all comes up. And they want to push down their child because they were themselves were never allowed to have authenticity. So I think that's like the generational trauma that's happening on top of, you know, under the umbrella of coercive control that's going on within the church. So it's. We need to get, I mean, healing therapy, like good somatic therapy and internal family systems. Those are the two forms of therapy that I found the most healing and the most helpful. There's a really great book as well that has been really helpful for me called Non Violent Communication. I think everyone would benefit from listening or reading that book. It's all about self witnessing, witnessing other people, empathy, holding space, holding space within ourselves. And, and it, it's all in the framework of accountab, like self accountability, but not in a way that is kind of like gross capitalistic, pull yourself up by the bootstrap kind of way. Like in a very genuine way that is actually, I think, really healthy.

How to Heal a Broken Family System

John Dehlin [01:30:18] Beautiful. I'm going to almost withdraw the question about what you would tell the church to do, because the church is like worth $260 billion at this point.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:30:27] They don't care about what I say.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] Figure it out. They can figure it out on their own. But let's turn now. I know that healing was a really important healing and growth is a really important part of why you wanted to do this episode. And if I had to pick maybe another set of questions that were really prevalent, people just want to know, number one, how, how you're doing. And people find Jesse, your affect, your communication style, your wisdom, very inspiring. So the types of questions I'm getting in mass about for you, Jesse, are like, how does. What, how did Jesse heal? How is, how is Jesse doing with emotion regulation, with self care? What tips? How, how has Jesse healed after so much trauma? And what tips or tricks would Jesse offer for those of us who are trying to heal from trauma? And I know that's not just, you know, an entire podcast, it's multiple podcasts, but what, what, what would you like to share in response to some of those questions?

How To Heal From Trauma

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:31:34] Yeah, I mean, I mean, those are tough. They're very complex and hard to unpack because they're multifaceted and all connected. I mean, first and foremost, I'm not healed. That's the, the, the, the idea of like, that I've arrived at healing is, is not, is not true. I'm triggered. I, I mean, I have complex PTSD from this. I have triggers daily that I, I, I've gotten pretty good at recognizing. And I've been fortunate enough to have a really amazing therapist that has helped me build tools to somatically feel those things and to process. But this is a, this is, I, I know I can't say this for certain, but I, I suspect I will be dealing this with this my whole life. This isn't just something that goes away. And I think, I think, I think people have this idea that healing means an absence Of. And I think I've realized that healing is, is. That's. It's actually the opposite. Healing is the presence of. The presence of space, the presence of tools, the presence of mind, the presence of action plan. Because trauma doesn't just go away. You know, things that have helped me significantly. Journaling. I'm an avid journaler. If you don't like journaling, even just getting your phone out and recording yourself just like just a kind of a. I used to call it a soul vomit where I would just like, I would write and just like get everything out of my mind. Those types of practices help getting into the habit or getting comfortable with asking yourself really uncomfortable questions. And I guess what I mean by that is like what is considered shadow work. Getting to know those parts of us that we have rejected. Getting to know those parts of us that we feel the most shame around. And it's very difficult. This is not, none of this is easy work. But I promise you it is worth it if you, if you can and if you do have access to resources like therapy. I know it's really difficult. I know it's really expensive. I know that it's kind of a crapshoot if you get a good one. But if you can get a good one, if you can have, if you do have access to it, that is especially if they, if they are trauma. I mean hopefully they're all trauma informed. But trauma informed therapy, specifically with somatic therapy and like I said internal family systems which like parts work has been so, so crucial to where I am today and the practice of, of self witnessing. So something that I realized when I. So I cut. Okay, sorry, I'm cutting. Let me myself really big question. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] A lot of different angles to answer it from. So this is great. Thank you.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:35:08] Of course. So when I. When I cut my parents off about two years ago, what I realized what was happening was I was so I, I realized that I was set in this mindset of if they don't acknowledge it, I will never move on. They need to acknowledge it. They need to like, they need to apologize, they need to validate me. Otherwise I'm stuck. And I realized how disempowering that was. I realized how like that will probably never happen. And getting to that point of letting that be okay was. I mean it took a decade. But once I reach that point and realize that they will never, they probably will never give me what I want. And in reality, what I do want is I need to start validating that. I need to start witnessing that I need to start telling myself that these things happened and that my pain is real and my pain is valid and starting these practices of, of self validation and self witnessing. And like I remember the first time I like so like the practice, there's a lot of like closing your eyes and breathing and like putting your hands on your, on your body, on your chest, just like a connective grounding practice. And I remember the first time I just told myself, I see you, I see how much pain you're in. I see, I see how, how angry you are. I see. And I just started saying things like that. And I remember the first time I did that, just this complete breakdown that happened and it was like I had the little me, the, the parts of me that were, you know, that were abandoned, the parts of me that were abused were just desperate for this and they have been screaming for this. And the moment I started doing this work of, of a lot, some people call it like reparenting, some people call it like inner child work. The moment I started doing this is when things started changing for me. And I mean anyone that's listening that is interested in these, just a quick Google search. Inner child work, shadow work, internal family systems that will get you at least in the direction. There are many journal prompts that you can start, that you can start asking questions. It's a lot of self work, the healing parts. And actually though kind of a different avenue of healing though that I've experienced in the last seven months is, is the healing work that happens within community and learning how to receive and learning how to be vulnerable with those around you and letting people show up for you. Because I think a pretty common experience that I've, I've heard from other people that have gone through immense amount of trauma is this hyper independence, this like avoidance of relying on anyone ever. And I know that I, I very much fell into that category of never wanting to be vulnerable with anyone ever.

John Dehlin [01:38:43] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:38:44] And realizing that it was safe like because I did these years of self witnessing and finally being able to feel like I can open up to people that I, I love and that love me. The amount of healing that happens within those spaces is just it, it's indescribable. Like when you can just feel held by, by your community, by your, by people that you love and cherish and you can be your most torn apart self and that they'll just hold the pieces together has been just magic. All this being said, it's, I mean like you, like you had mentioned, healing is not linear and it's messy and it doesn't stop. I think that's another thing myself I have to remind myself of. I'm very much like a type a achievement oriented type of person. And I'm like, okay, well if I do all of the journal prompts and I do the ice baths and I am vegan and I run five miles and I do the breathing exercises, then I'll be fixed. And I think that's like actually a form of trauma that has come out of the perfectionistic aspects of Mormonism, the check boxes. So yeah, healing is painful, healing is messy, healing is not linear. It's not a one size fits all. But if I can offer any sort of guidance in terms of like directions to, to head into. Like I said, I just. Inner child work, internal family systems, self witnessing, journaling, somatic work, feeling emotions. Like the. I don't know if you've heard this or not, but I remember the first time I heard it was news to me. Like an emotion actually only lasts I think about 90 seconds in the body. Like physically. And our resistance to feeling emotion is what keeps it going. And as I got better and better at recognizing when I had an emotion like, and being able to be like, wow, I'm sad. And then just sitting in that, wow, I'm angry while I'm, you know, insert emotion, which is. Goes back to the book I had mentioned earlier. Nonviolent communication is so good at this. It talks about like the difference between interpretation and, and emotion. So often we say things like I feel, I feel like you're not listening. But that's not a feeling, that's an interpretation. And so the, the closer we can get to what we're actually feeling, healing and then validating that feeling, I think the closer we can get to healing.

Treatment of Complex PTSD with a Master's Degree

John Dehlin [01:41:45] Beautiful.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:41:47] And I don't want to like scare people off, but I've also like, I've had, I've had more bad therapists than good.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:41:56] Are good therapists out there. They really. And I have found people that are focused on things like somatic work, which is a trauma informed type of therapy and internal family systems. I, I really feel and believe that if, if those are their modalities that they're working in, they're probably going to be safer for people that have complex PTSD versus someone that does like CBT or any sort of like just speak therapy. Because trauma is so you can talk about trauma all day long. But if, if you're not, if you're not, if you're not letting yourself feel it and process it yeah, it's. You're gonna find a plateau. You're gonna find. At least that's how I, that's something that I found. I, I reached this point where I was like, I can't. I've intellectualized this to the upteenth degree. I, I understand this in and out cognitively and yet I feel so stuck. And it wasn't until I started learning about sensation and, and how uncomfortable I, I learned that I was actually dissociating all of the time out. Like using like hyper, like, like hyper intellectualizing emotions as a form of self soothing so I wouldn't have to feel these emotions. And unfortunately the only way out of it is through.

John Dehlin [01:43:22] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:43:23] So annoying.

John Dehlin [01:43:25] Yeah. And I'm getting a lot of people in the comments saying, wait, there's really good life coaches out there. Which is true. My wife Margi's the life coach. And there's also people saying master's level therapists can also be fantastic, which is also true. I'll note that Jody Hildebrandt was a master's level. I don't even think Jody Hildebrandt was a therapist. Now that I have looked at her credentials. I think it was like ed, Psych or child.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:43:51] She was, from what I develop, I understand she was a, A family. Family license. A family. Oh, what are they called? She, she was a therapist. She had a master's.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] But I, weirdly I don't think her masters was in like therapy. Maybe she took the exam to get her therapy license, but last I looked. But I'm getting us off track. I apologize. Just. There are scientific, empirically supported methods for treating therapy. Make sure that whoever you find use evidence based approaches to treating trauma. And the more experience they have, the more expertise, the more training, the more that they've trained under an expert in evidence based treatments for trauma. Yes, likely the better treatment you're going to get. And yes, that can be a coach or a master's level therapist. But just please think of it as an expertise, not as something that someone does just because they throw the word up on their website and tell you they've, they've treated a lot of people with trauma.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:45:02] And I know, and I know that if you have, if you've been through a significant amount of trauma, one of the things that I'm sure you're dealing with is not being able to trust yourself and trust your intuition. But if you're seeking out a therapist and something doesn't feel right, trust it. Because that, that if something is coming up in a way that feels constrictive or wrong. It probably is.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] Yeah. I promise you I wouldn't keep you more than two hours, so I'm going to try and jam a few more questions into our time remaining. I will ask everyone really quickly. I don't do sponsorships. I don't do paid ads other than what YouTube throws up. If people just subscribe to this YouTube channel, like this, comment on it, share it, and then we thank our donors that make Mormon stories possible. If you want to see content like this, Please go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. That's how we pay for all this. That's all I'll say. Really quickly, Jesse, do you want to talk really quickly? I want to talk about your plans for the future at the end. Do you want at all to talk about the media coverage, the news coverage, any of the documentaries? Or are you. Is that something you're not even allowed to or want to talk about? Is there anything you want to talk about that or even, like, what it's like to be part of a global news story? That's fine, too.

Donor-funded Mormon Stories

Jesse on Being a Part of a National News Story

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:46:29] I mean, the. The. It's been very ineffable. Honestly. The nature in which this trauma happened was so. Was so isolating. The nature in which, like, the types of trauma. The type of trauma that I experienced with Jody was so isolating. Not being believed was so isolating. Not being validated was so isolating. And now, because I didn't know anyone that had gone through something like this, and now the. The conclusion of this has also been very isolating. It's like. It's just so bizarre. Like, I don't know anyone that has gone through this type of. Of experience of having their most vulnerable or most personal stories. And I understand that. I chose to go public. I totally understand that. But to have it be just out there is just so surreal. I have. I've had. I had someone recognize me at the grocery store a little while ago. I've had people recognize me outside of, like, well, actually, one of my favorite musicians. This was so crazy. On New Year's I had. I went to Chicago for a show and one of my. Because one of my favorite musicians was playing and we were. We were like all outside the venue afterwards. And she was standing there and she was like, why do I know you? And she lives in Portland. So I was like, oh, well, I'm a tattooer. I tattoo in Portland sometimes. It's, you know, I've been to a lot of your shows. And she's like, no, that's not it? Why do I know you? And then it came out that she had seen like the, the Hulus, like me on Hulu, and I was like, oh my God, my, like favorite musician knows something so personal about me. It was so surreal. But yeah, it's been. I mean, I've, I think I can, I can't talk about like the details of it, but I mean, I was on Nightline and there's a larger 2020 story that will be airing. I can't say when. And then there's a few documentaries that have reached documentarians, that have reached out that I've, that I've spoke to. I, I'm not really sure what that's going to look like moving forward and what I will have the capacity, capacity to participate in. I know that this isn't going anywhere in terms of like, how it affects my life. I don't know how much more like large scale conversation I can have when it at least about like the specificities of what happened. I do think that I would like to continue conversations about the, the culture at large, how we can, what we can do, like, what actionable steps we can start taking towards making sure these things don't happen. I mean, I know that there's no way of completely stopping it, but if there's any step forward we can take is a good step forward and an important one. So. Yeah, being a part of a national news story is very bizarre. I don't, I mean, if, if you can avoid it, I don't recommend it. It's very, it's very strange. But obviously, like, I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't, I don't regret sharing my story by any means, but I also had no idea what that meant at the time. I had no context for it.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] Yeah, yeah. How could you? Like, I, I accept offers sometimes to go on TV or documentaries or whatever, but it's only for the cause. It's, it's stressful. I always hate how I come off and I don't know, it's just something you do for the cause, but I would never call it enjoyable or something that I aspire to, honestly.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:50:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, It's. I mean, like I said, I don't regret it at all. I don't regret coming forward. I, the amount of healing that has happened in my own life. And I, and I hope, I can only hope that my story has helped even one person.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:51:04] And I, and if me coming forward, if it, if it supports these children in any way, it's worth it. But yeah, it's a, it's quite the experience.

John Dehlin [01:51:19] Well, we're, we're all looking forward to, you know, know those documentaries or that 2020 piece whenever it comes out. Just again for the cause if for nothing else. But people love, people find you to be very poised and articulate and intelligent and thoughtful. So I, you know. More, more. Jesse Hildebrandt is good as far as our audience goes. Really quickly. Jesse, a couple more questions. What are your plans? Do you have plans? Has your Mormon stories interview, all the interviews from other people, just this whole situation. Has it changed the trajectory of your life? What are your plans? People want to know if you are going to become a therapist. People want to know if you're going to write a book. What are you able to share about your plans? Or do you even know? It's okay to not know.

Jesse on The Mormon Stories

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:52:08] Yeah. I mean, yes. I mean it has completely changed my life and in so many ways. And the trajectory I, I think it, I think it just the, the shaping of the trajectory has, is, definitely has happened. I think it's more confirmed things for me because a lot of these things were, were ideas that I have been ruminating on for a long time. But the confirmation, the stories that I've received, the feedback that I've received has been very affirming and confirming to me. The goal right now is I would, I'm trying to start school online for the, for like the time being. I, I'm hoping to go into some form of psychology, sociology, neuroscience, some combination of those. As as much as I am interested in individual healing and individual work, the collective, the collective work I think is, is equally as important and interesting to me specifically around these high, high demand like groups and exiting cults, exiting religions. I think I may have mentioned the book before on the last time I was on but there's this book called How Minds change by David McCraney.

Mormons on How Minds Change

John Dehlin [01:53:38] He's great. Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:53:40] Love abs Obsessed.

John Dehlin [01:53:41] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:53:42] And that book was, I've, I mean I've read all of his books and that one but that one was so humanizing in a way that I, I, I feel like I haven't experienced in a while. Like it, it, it completely removes this moralistic lens from human behavior of good and bad. You know, oh the people. These people are bad. These people are good. And just shows like really the lack of or how complex our choices and decisions and how little control we have or free like how little like agency we have in a lot of ways. But how important also that that book goes into Showing how important out group empathy is and how important, especially as we come, we become more and more polarized, how offering a hand to people that are. That think differently than us. And I know that is difficult, is so, so difficult, but is the only, as far as I can, as far as I gather from this book and books like, it is the only way to actually like, bring people over. And I think about, I actually think about this a lot when I, When I consider who I was when I first left the church, when I consider the thoughts and the behaviors and the beliefs that I had when I left. It's embarrassing. It's. It's like I'm so grateful that I don't have, like, social media back then in, in the way that we do now of having everything documented. And I am so grateful for my friends that were so patient with me and so loving and so, and in loving in, In a way that both felt safe and challenging. There was this one person, Brett Barrett. I mean, I feel like if it wasn't for him, I would not be the person I am today. And he was so willing to sit down with me and challenge me in a such a kind and soft, gentle way and gave me books and resources and, and let me have my terrible takes and then kind of sent me on with like a new way of thinking about things. If it wasn't for people like him, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be in this position of who I am today. It's a scary thought to think about who I would be. And so thinking about the forms of therapy and the forms of. And the types of conversations I want to be having moving forward, it's, it's those types of conversations. How do we bridge gaps? How do we bridge this mass polarization that's happening? And how do we. How do we use ethical, ethical persuasive techniques like deep canvassing to help people come to those conclusions and come to better conclusions.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] It's a great book. How Minds Change. Mormons, Ex Mormons should read it for sure. Because there are more and less effective ways to talk to your believing family and friends. And we will always want to be effective and not. And do no harm. Okay. So, Jesse, you do plan on pursuing a therapy licensure. Did I hear that right?

Jesse Plans To Pursue a Therapy Licence

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:57:18] Yeah. I mean, potentially, I don't know in what direction I'm going to go. I want. The goal is to just start.

John Dehlin [01:57:25] Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:57:26] Because I have no credits and so I like, I just want to start the process. Time's going to pass anyways, so I want to start the process. If that leads me to being a licensed therapist and working in like a clinical setting, wonderful. If that leads to more like research based work, also wonderful. But just as of right now, that's. That is where I, I would like to go and like, my job as a tattooer. There is a lot of therapeutic kind of work that happens. Like, obviously, I know I'm not a therapist and there's. Have you, have you ever been tattooed? Have you had that experience before?

John Dehlin [01:58:08] No, but I have made the promise that if I do get tattooed.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:58:11] Yes, that's right. So there's a. So in the experience of getting tattooed, there's. I mean, there's so much trust. There is a. It's so intimate, it's so vulnerable. You are putting your physical, the permanence of your physical being in the hands of this person. And there's something about not only touching someone, but hurting. I mean, it's painful. That just breaks. This breaks the ice and like, forms a connection in ways that not many other things do. And so I'm with people for hours and I get to hear so many, like, so much of their story. And usually there's a reason they're getting the tattoo or why they're in town or where they're from. And like, there's. The amount of connection and bonding that I get to experience on a daily basis is just so incredible. It's my favorite part of my job. Like, truly, if I had, if I woke up tomorrow and I physically couldn't tattoo, the thing that would be the hardest is, is losing that ability to connect with people in that way. So I think that desire for, like, being in the healing arts has, it's been there for a long time. So, like, getting a degree in that way just feels like a natural extension of that.

Jane Eyre on Writing a Book or a TED Talk

John Dehlin [01:59:32] Okay, and are, are you starting with undergrad then?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:59:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:36] Okay, so you're, you're at the undergrad phase? Yeah. That's. That's awesome. Well, we wish you luck. And, and I'm sure there's lots of people that want to support you in, in whatever way they can. We'll get to that. What people? Some people are saying they would love you to give a TED Talk, not that it's giving you assignments. Others are saying they would love to. I'm sure that there would be some agents out there that would love to shop a memoir around. Have you. Where, where are you thinking about these days? On things like a book or a TED Talk?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:00:07] I mean, the, the idea of, like having something of value to say to like Warren to TED Talk is very wild to.

John Dehlin [02:00:18] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:00:19] Think about if I, that's so funny. In terms of a book. I, I mean, that is definitely something that I, I think I would like to do in the future. I don't really know what the nature of that book would be. If that would be surrounding my experience, experience with Jody. If it would be more of like a fictionalized kind of memoir novel kind of story. If it would be nothing even related to that and more about just like the work that I want to do in regards to, in, in regards to healing from severe trauma. I don't know what that would look like, but that is definitely something that I would like to do.

John Dehlin [02:01:05] Okay, that's good to hear. Um, and TED talks are easier than books. I, I, I've done a TED Talk. I've not been able to do a book. Just so you know, TED talks are easier than books.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:01:16] I don't, there's something about a TED Talk that just sounds like, oh, no, only like famous people do TED Talks. Only like people that have something to say do TED Talks. Like not little me.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] Like, for sure you could get TED Talk, especially if you do TedX. TedX is like with the local university or you like University of Utah, Utah State. You know, I'm sure University of Washington has a TED, a TEDx kind of thing. So you can start at a TEDx and then graduate to a TED Talk, but you'd be fantastic. But that's totally up to you. I will ask this just because it's what I, you know, realm I care about. Are you open to, or have you considered like a YouTube channel, like interviewing people like we do on Mormon stories, or just, you know, talking about what you learn? Kind of like, I'm Jesse, I'm pursuing the healing arts and mental health. Come along with me on the ride. As I learn and as I, as I, as I progress into hopefully a therapist someday or something like it. Have you thought about a YouTube channel?

Jesse on Starting a YouTube Channel

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:02:21] I have, yes. I, it's, it's, it's pretty scary to think about and exciting at the same time. I mean, these are the, like, these are the types of conversations that I really wanna, I really want to start having. I don't know if it's like, if me hosting it is the way or if I like, find people that are already having these conversations and join the conversation. I think there's a little bit of imposter syndrome of like. All of the healing I've done has been very much just trial and error and so. And not having any sort of credit. I mean, I'm a high school dropout, like, and I know that intellect and educate. I know that they're. That doesn't. I cognitively understand. That doesn't mean anything. But it. There is, like, a level of insecurity around that. And so, like, having, I think, credentials and having at least starting that path. Path, I think I would feel a little bit more inclined or, like. Like, able to have those conversations.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] Yeah, well, I'm not gonna push you at all. However, if, you know, if you ever do want to start a YouTube channel, I. I know I'd love to support that, and I know there's a lot of people who would step up to support you, so. Well, you. You decide whatever feels right to you. Just know that I and others would. Would love to support you in any way we can.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:03:56] Well, there is. I haven't said anything yet, and I probably won't say anything for a little while, but there's potentially some pretty big shifts happening in my life in the next six months, and so I'm trying to, like, let those things settle before making any sort of decisions on. On that. But I do see myself having some sort of platform of having conversations with people, because I know that there are so many people out there that have these ideas and either are a part of the conversation already or want to be a part of the conversation. And I think that the more and more we normalize these types of conversations, the more effective and the faster we can get our message out of healing and love and support. Know, just like healing from these. From these atrocities.

John Dehlin [02:04:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, my daughter, Maya, she. She has lots and lots of tattoos, and she adores you and your voice. And it's not often that what I do on my podcast really reaches my kids, but Maya was very grateful that I helped introduce her to you. And now she follows you, and it's because she finds you wise. So I'm sure a lot of other people will. So I'm grateful to know there may be a platform in your future.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:05:16] Well, thank you. That means so much.

A Tattoo Artist's Venmo

John Dehlin [02:05:19] Okay, well, I promise to keep you to two hours, but I do want to end by plugging. By plugging you like last time. I'm going to just quickly share your Venmo John Jesse tattooer. Right? It's J E S S I T A T T O O E R. Is that right?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:05:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] And is that also your. Your. That's your. That's your Instagram as well. Is that right?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:05:48] Yes.

Europe Is a Serendipity

John Dehlin [02:05:49] Okay. All right. And really quickly, how was Europe? Do you have any tips on while people are taking advantage of. Of that Venmo? Share. Really quickly, how was Europe?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:06:05] Europe was amazing.

John Dehlin [02:06:06] What were some highlights?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:06:08] I mean, it was. I mean everything, every part of my trip was just magic. There was so much serendipity, there was so much connection. I was able. Two of my best friends flew out for my birthday and then we met more of our friends in this place called the HA in the Netherlands for a music festival. And I was able to see so many of my friends bands play and then we all went rock climbing and then just the museums and I low key fell in love. And it's just, it's been. It was just, it was magic and people that were listening helped make that possible. And, and so truly from the bottom of my heart, I have. Thank you. And just continuously humbled by this.

Tattoo Artist on a Trip to Europe

John Dehlin [02:07:02] What, what countries are you. Are you comfortable sharing what countries you visited?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:07:05] Yeah. So in the uk, I just, I went to London and. London and Bath. And then I was in Berlin and I was in Amsterdam, Einhoven, the Hague, Bordeaux, Paris, and I was in. But I was in Berlin twice and I was in London twice. Yeah, I think that's everything for this trip.

John Dehlin [02:07:31] That's called travel therapy. That's what that.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:07:32] Yes. Travel through. And I'll be back. I'm actually going back to Berlin in like nine days for a week and then I'll be back and then I'm gonna be back in May for a tattoo convention called called True Blue. So if anyone is in Europe and wants to get tattooed, you should let me know because I'd love to.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] What is your tattoo shop in Seattle, if you want to let people know?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:07:55] Yeah, definitely. It's called Electric Cobra. We are located in Columbia City in Seattle. It's just Electric Cobra tattoo Parlor. But it's like fancy parlor spelling. Yeah, I would, I would love to tattoo. If anyone is in town or is around and wants to get tattooed, I would absolutely love that.

Jesse on Book Tours and More

John Dehlin [02:08:20] All right. And the Instagram is Jesse, Tattooer J E S S I T A T T O O E R and that's both the Venmo and the Instagram. What's wrong with that?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:08:35] Oh, it's nothing. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:08:39] Oh, yeah, of course. And thanks to all the viewers and listeners that support Jesse. Jesse deserves our support. The book that Jesse's been holding up, again, for those who didn't see it, it's called Recovering Agency. I'll show Recovering Agency by Luna Lindsay. Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control. You can check out I Believe. Yeah. Thumbs up by Jesse. You can check out the five part I Believe series we have on Mormon Stories podcast with L. Luna Lindsay. They're fantastic. You mentioned so many books. I think I'm sure that Julia is going to be listing those books and resources in the show notes along with the time codes. So thanks to Julia and Maven for moderating the chats as always. Gerardo for the thumbnails. All the Mormon Story staff thanks all the donors that make this podcast possible. You can become a donor@mormonstories.org if you want to see this program continue. Jesse, I want to give you the chance to give any final words of hope or advice or perspective or condemnation, whatever, whatever you want to say to, to conclude, the floor is now yours.

One More Word for Jody and Ruby

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:09:53] Just thank you truly everyone that I had no, I had no clue what going on this podcast, what it's going to be like and what the, the reactions were going to be. I had no context for it and just completely changed my life and changed, I mean you changed so much and in, in terms of, of hope. Embrace the joy as much like embrace the pain and embrace the joy because they go together and don't block your joy because you are also in pain. I know that it's really easy to do that, but the more and more that we allow ourselves to feel joy, the less that they win.

John Dehlin [02:10:42] So beautiful. Beautiful. And I guess the final sentencing of Jody and Ruby is still to come. Yeah, that story's not yet written. So I mean at some point if, if you, if you have any final or, or additional updates, we'd love to have you back. But I'm sure there's, at some point you're going to want to leave the story behind. You too. So.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:11:09] Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping that the next time we talk about the sentencing that it's a, a really positive conversation. A very short and very, you know, I hope that, I hope that there's not going to be a lot to say about it. That it's just going to be like, okay, justice is served.

The Last Question for Hidden True Crime

John Dehlin [02:11:27] I have to ask this question because it's from a friend. This will be my last question. My friend Lauren Johnson Matthias from Hidden True Crime podcast. She's a legend. Her and her husband Dr. John are amazing. They do great work. They've covered your story. I don't know if you know Lauren or Hidden True Crime, but there check them out listeners and Jesse as well if you don't. But, but Lauren asked me to ask you this. Ruby apologized to Pam during her Sentencing statement. But Jesse told KUTV that Pam was Jody's best friend and that Pam was the president of connections. I don't even know, Jesse, if any of this means anything to you, but Lauren wanted me to ask if you had any thoughts on Ruby's apology to Pam, which is kind of a geeky question, but, you know, I thought. I. I love Lauren, so I'm gonna ask.

Jesse on Ruby's Apology To Pam

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:12:23] I actually don't remember the part about Pam. I mean, I know Pam and I have very strong feelings about Pam and I. They're not. And not positive feelings. So I. I guess I. I think I missed the part about Pam in the. In the apology.

John Dehlin [02:12:43] Oh. Yeah. I. I think it. I think it may have just been like, thank you, Pam, for your support, or, you know, that. That sort of thing.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:12:52] I mean, I have. I mean, I think in my experience with Pam, I mean, she was very. She saw the abuse that was going on in my life with me and other people in. At the hands of Jody, and she was very much a part of Jody's inner workings and inner worlds and made a lot of things possible. I have nothing. Nothing good to say about Pam.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] Okay. Okay. So if. If Jody. If Ruby's apologizing to Pam, that probably isn't feeling super good.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:13:26] No, not. Not. Not great.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] Okay. All right, well, I don't mean to end on a downer. This has been such an uplifting episode, but I love Lauren, so I had to ask Lawrence question.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:13:35] I. I understand.

Jesse Hildebrandt's Farewell Letter

John Dehlin [02:13:36] Okay. All right, well, Jesse Hildebrandt, you're the best. We're so. Thank you for coming on Mormon Stories. Thank you for your courage, your grace, your wisdom, your intelligence, and. And for all the good that's going to come in the future. We wish you so much luck, and we. We got your back and you're always welcome here on Mormon Stories.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:14:00] Thank you so much. So much. I appreciate you having me.

John Dehlin [02:14:02] All right, now you go have a good relight. Whatever you do to relax and to chill out and heal.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:14:09] Yes. I'm gonna make soup, and I'm gonna eat bagels, and I'm gonna go to sleep, and it's gonna be great.

John Dehlin [02:14:14] All right. Thanks, Jesse. You take care.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:14:17] You too.

Mormon Stories: Jesse's Funeral

John Dehlin [02:14:18] All right, thanks, everyone, for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We really appreciate the support. Again, please. Thanks. If you donate to us and if you want to support the program, please go to MormonStories.org and become a monthly donor. Thanks to everyone who makes this possible. Please subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast on YouTube and Facebook. Please like and share this episode. Please spread the Word and thanks to everyone for your support. We'll have lots of good shows in the weeks and months ahead. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast and check out. We'll let you know when anything good comes out about Jesse. We'll make sure to let you know on the podcast as well. Thanks everybody. Everyone take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.