Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 1723

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is January 9, 2023. Happy New Year. And we are so excited to be in studio. I'm here with my wife, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:13] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] We are really excited for today's interview. Today we are interviewing Liz Lambson. Hey, Liz.

Liz Lambson [00:00:20] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Welcome.

Liz Lambson [00:00:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] We always try really hard to make sure our interviews on Mormon Stories are with people who are wise and thoughtful and talented and smart and. And today is no exception. Liz Lambson is a Korean African American artist, musician and writer. And along with her spouse, Sam, is a parent to five boys residing in Salt Lake City. She performs as a string bassist with the Ballet West Orchestra that's conducted by Jared Oakes. Is that right?

Liz Lambson [00:00:52] Yeah. He's a director and we're good friends.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] And he's Dallin H. Oaks's grandson, right? Yeah, yeah. As well as the children's singer, songwriter Lizzie Luna, the creator of the music and movement program Yoga Storytime and songs. Liz has performed for and toured with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and the orchestra at Temple Square for many years. She released her first album of original children's yoga music, Reach to the sky, in 2018. Her writing has been featured in publications including the New Era and the New York Times. Well, those are two different publications.

Liz Lambson [00:01:28] Yeah. There were many years that passed between those two publications.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] Yeah. Some of you may be familiar with her. She's not just a musician, as we mentioned before, she's also a painter. And she is an active member of the Utah arts and culture community. Formerly served as the executive director of the Utah Black History Museum. I'm sure that will come up in our story with her. Her artwork is featured on Salt Lake City's Black Lives Matter mural at City Hall. She is also an aspiring film actress. And in her spare time, she enjoys needlework, gardening, road trips and Scrabble. Yes, that's an intro. And I think if I'm going to just sort of give a. Just another kind of preview of what we're. What we're going to be covering today. This is going to be one of our traditional long form interviews. It's going to be in multiple parts over multiple hours. It's going to be worth every minute of your time. But we're going to talk about her conversion to Mormonism as a biracial young woman trying her best to be a really good Mormon. That's going to be kind of part one. Part two is going to be her time at byu where she studied in the music program there. She ended up getting married and having five children. Yeah, that's going to be kind of part two and what it was like kind of being an adult Mormon mom and performing artist. And then part three is going to be her faith journey, deconstruction, and kind of where she is now. And I learned about Liz because she recently wrote a really fascinating, well written and profound letter to her local church leadership in Salt Lake City that also was addressed to the top leaders of the Mormon Church.

Liz Lambson [00:03:22] Yeah. Not sure if it made it up there. I'd be curious to know.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Yeah. But we'll include a copy of that letter because I highly recommend it is reading for everybody. But without any further ado, Liz Lampson, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Liz Lambson [00:03:38] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Yeah, this is.

Liz Lambson [00:03:40] This is very special. I. I have to admit, I have actually never listened to an episode of your podcast. The only. The only one episode that I have partaken of was my friend Angela Soph's, like, live taping. She played. She performed music. It was at a church. Not. Not a Mormon church, but I'm sure you have vivid memories of that. But Angela and I used to be in a band together, and she invited me to come watch. And then I met you afterwards and was like, john, I want to be on your show. And you were, like, so tired after this long session with Angela and you were yawning, and I was like, he's not interested. He's not interested.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] Oh, I remember that now, actually.

Liz Lambson [00:04:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] Yeah, I absolutely do. And I was interested, but I was exhausted.

Liz Lambson [00:04:45] Yeah. And. But, you know, as we both were saying in our communications, it's. It seems like the right time. I don't think it was the right time back then. You know, so much has happened in the last five years.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:05:02] I had three. Three more kids since then, so.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] And things have. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:05:06] Or not one. One more. I had. I had the two. I had the twins before I met you.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] Yeah. And your faith journey has kind of come to a head in a way that it hadn't quite yet.

Liz Lambson [00:05:20] Yeah. We've settled into an interesting place.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Yeah. All right, well, with. With that introduction, where does your story begin? And I'll say it probably didn't start as a Mormon story.

Liz's Early Life and Family Background

Liz Lambson [00:05:34] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] So where does your story begin, Liz Lambson?

Liz Lambson [00:05:37] I would say it begins with the creation of a young biracial baby.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:05:48] My dad is African American, from Louisiana. French Creole. Even just a week ago or for New Year's, I made our family recipe, gumbo passed down from Generations Seafood Gumbo. So I really cherish my Louisiana heritage that comes from my dad's side of the family. And then he was in the army and was stationed in South Korea for a time. And that's when he met my mother. And they came back to. He brought her back to the States. And I was born in Fort Gordon, Georgia, and then he was stationed in Germany for a time. So there is an interesting. My family really cherishes German culture and German food and German things because we lived there. And we actually lived there at the time when the Berlin Wall came down. So I remember being there as a kid. Like, we went and we were chipping it down. We had little hammers and spray paint, and we were part of that whole scene when the wall was coming down. So that's kind of cool. That's in my memory bank. And then.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] What was your dad's profession again?

Liz Lambson [00:07:04] Well, so he was in the army and he worked with. Specifically at the time, satellite communications. And he was an engineer. An engineer is a good title for him.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] So.

Liz Lambson [00:07:18] But he retired in Colorado Springs. So after living in Georgia and Germany, our family. I have two older siblings, so our family of five settled in Colorado Springs, where he retired from the army and began working as a civilian, still as an engineer, still in the world of satellites and government contracting. And. But I believe that he chose. Or they were. It seemed, from what I understand, that they wanted to raise us in Colorado Springs partially because it was a safe place to grow up. And safe is another word for white. He wanted to raise us away from his family. I think he grew up in poverty, had a lot of. Really. Just had a really hard youth. So one of his big things was being concerned about our safety. So we moved into a safe neighborhood in Briargate. The Briargate community in Colorado Springs, kind of the north side of the city and near the Air Force Academy, which is actually where my brother ended up going to school, kind of following in my dad's footsteps, joining the military, but. And that's the base that we would go to to shop at the commissary and go to the BX and go bowling, and we'd go to the Air Force. The chapel there, do you know that iconic chapel that's at the Air Force Academy? It's like an. A frame chapel, very pointed, kind of metallic. You can see it sitting on the mountainside. It's sort of like the Air Force Temple, the military temple. It has a really unique architecture, and it's just an iconic thing. And that is actually where we would go for, like, Christmas Mass.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] So was your dad raised religiously at all?

Liz Lambson [00:09:32] So his side of the family was Catholic. Very deep Catholic roots. So we.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] So black Catholic from Louisiana.

Liz Lambson [00:09:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:09:43] Yeah. But he wasn't particularly religious. On the other hand, my mother was or became very religious.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] Tell us about her background.

Liz Lambson [00:09:52] So she was from South Korea, and she. We'll get to this later, I'm sure. But that's where she's from. And I guess as a little teaser, I think that's where she is now. But I don't know. So we'll get there. But yeah, she was much younger than my dad. I think 12 years junior. His junior. Just a beautiful woman.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] Where was she raised?

Liz Lambson [00:10:29] She. She was raised in Korea.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:31] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:10:32] So he. When he was stationed there, she was maybe 19, and he met her there. I don't know if she even spoke English. Honestly, when they met, maybe a little. By the time I was born, I was the youngest kid, so her English was better. But she was clearly, like, Korean, which was just the flavor of my childhood, I think. We ate so much Korean food. I mean, that was just what we ate because she was the one who cooked for us. So our staples were like, oh, just rice cakes. Duck, boki, kimchi. Yeah, yeah. She'd make bulgogi. We really like strange things at the time that now I look back and it was normal to me at the time, like. Like cold octopus legs. And I used to eat those as a kid and think nothing of it. And now I think about it too much, like, oh, that's. That's kind of like a little suction cup there. I don't know about it. It's kind of chewy. I don't know about us. Or, like, anchovies. We do like, little lettuce wraps with rice and gochujang on top and then, like, dried anchovies. And it's like, that's a. That's a small fish, and we're eating its bones. Like, we're eating all of it in a little. Or dehydrated squid or pickled turnips. Gimbap is the Korean. I guess you could call it sushi. It's a little different, but, you know, meat and vegetables and rice wrapped up in seaweed and, oh, Spam fried rice. Spam slices dipped in egg, fried in a pan, served with rice and then rice. That's. This was. As a kid, this was just. This was the equivalent, I'd say, of cold cereal. We'd eat leftover rice with cold water so cold Rice in cold water. And then we'd tear up pieces of American cheese and sometimes, like, deli ham on top and just eat rice and water. We just call it rice and water. And it's a way to use your leftover rice. Unless we were doing Spam fried rice.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] I grew up with rice and milk like breakfast.

Liz Lambson [00:13:04] Did you heat it or was.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Yeah, it was heated. It was heated.

Liz Lambson [00:13:07] Yeah. Yeah. Just try some cold rice and water that really, like, before grainy, you know, cold rice is. Is not. It's not chewy or soft anymore. And then.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] Were either of your parents college graduates?

Liz Lambson [00:13:24] No.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:13:26] No, actually. I know my dad dreamed of going to college and being a scientist, but again, he came from a very poor family and joined the military kind of as a way of advancing in life.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] Were either musical.

Liz Lambson [00:13:47] My mom had a great voice. I always wonder if I heard her voice now, if I would recognize it. But I try to remember what it sounded like. But she had a great voice. And we would say, why don't you sing at the church? But she'd sing at home. But she loved. She loved music. And my dad did, too. We were raised on the Temptations. The Temptations. Oh, what's a Temptation song?

John Dehlin [00:14:21] That's a My Girl.

Liz Lambson [00:14:23] Yeah. I'm trying to think. There's one that was really touching.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] Did you proud to beg? Is that the Temptations? I'm in a goof if I try.

Liz Lambson [00:14:31] We should. Oh, they're just really, really, really great music. I don't know why I'm spacing, but there's one that I heard recently that was so touching to me anyway. Temptations. Michael Jackson. Kind of more like Motown music. My dad was really into cars. He had a 69 Plymouth Roadrunner. That was his little baby. Anyway. Yeah, my parents were so different from each other. So different. And then they created three children, and we were so different from them. So we were just this batch of people who had. The fact that we lived together definitely, you know, brought a sense of commonality. But my parents. Cultural backgrounds were so different. And so I still struggle with trying to define my own identity. I still hesitate to just call myself a black woman. That's. Everyone refers to me that way since I moved to Utah, and especially since 2020 when George Floyd died. But growing up, I. I never was called that. My dad didn't call us black kids. He. He really wanted to remove us from black culture. And his black family, were they trying

John Dehlin [00:15:59] to assimilate into white culture as much as.

Liz Lambson [00:16:01] Yeah, definitely. We were given very traditional white names. Elizabeth like the Queen of England. And, you know, there was the option when I was. When we were really young to learn Korean. And nowadays it's great to be bilingual. People put their kids in language immersion schools so that they can learn another language. They go to school in another language. But at this time, in the 90s, early 90s, I was born in 1986, but I mean, at that time, it was in my dad's early lifetime that interracial marriage was made legal. Like the Loving case. Like it was. It was unusual for him as a black man, to have married an Asian woman, period. So. And he was really trying to overcome his past by raising us in a new way.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] But did you say you raised you guys religiously? You did attend church?

Liz Lambson [00:17:20] Yes, so we did attend the Catholic church. Real quick, I just wanted to say that there was the option for us to learn Korean as kids, and they decided that that might confuse us in school, so we didn't learn Korean. I think my mom was like, really, really wanting us to learn Korean. So she would speak to us in Korean. She'd pick me up from school and ask me, how was my day in Korean, what happened at school in Korean? And I would understand and I would answer her in English. But unfortunately, learned the language. But. But yes, we. We attended a Catholic church at the Air Force Academy.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] That was the building you were talking about, actually.

Liz Lambson [00:18:00] So that chapel, that, that iconic chapel was for, like, special services. So Easter, Christmas, the midnight mass. My siblings were altar, altar boy and altar girl there for Christmas. But there was another chapel on base where we would do our Sunday meetings. And I had my first communion there. I wore this giant, what looked like a wedding dress for an 8 year old. I was at 8. Is that when they do it, Communion? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Might have been 13 or 14.

Liz Lambson [00:18:33] No, I was very young. Yeah. Because by that time I was. I was getting into Mormonism. So I think it was around when I was eight, when I did my first communion and wore this giant puffy dress. But my mom, somewhere around that, probably around the same time, started getting really, really invested in her own church. And I believe it was a Korean Methodist church, but a really intense evangelical church. And you know, what I learned just recently is that in the early 90s, Colorado Springs had this. Made this effort to bring like. Like, what would you call, Like, enliven the community by enticing people to move there. There was an effort to bring in nonprofits, and as a result, a bunch of churches, like evangelical churches moved into Colorado Springs. The megachurches. It's like the megachurch capital. And it was all starting to grow when I was a kid. And so my mom was getting pulled into a culture. It was a religious fervor probably much like when Joseph Smith was a kid. I identify with Joseph Smith so much as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] Oh yeah. Confusion.

Liz Lambson [00:20:21] Yeah. But I mean, even at his age, all these different churches, everyone trying to kind of sort of competing, all this, all these ideas that, different doctrines, dogmas flying around and preachers here and there, televangelists. I imagine that what was happening in Colorado Springs was, was very similar to what was happening in upstate New York in Joseph Smith's time. Just religious fervor. So my mom got pulled into a Korean church and she probably had been going there for a long time. It was, I mean, as we know, church is where you find community. And for her being from Korea, that's where she could be with her Korean people, where she could go and, and be with people who looked like her, who spoke her language. They'd have potlucks. I remember going to these potlucks of just tables of piles of Korean food. Just magical. The smell and then all the people and the children and it's, you know, it's like when I would go there, I didn't look Korean enough, so I didn't feel like I quite fit in. And then when I would be with my dad's family, I just remembered going to one family reunion because we, he, he really Louisiana Yeah. And we didn't keep in, you know, he, we were, had very minimal contact with his family. But I remember going to that reunion and being really overwhelmed, seeing a whole group of black people who I think probably looked like me more than I looked like my mom because there were some, there were also some interracial couples, so some more lighter skinned black kids and adults. But, but in that crowd too, I also felt like a stranger and uncomfortable. So I was always trying to find my place and, and trying to fit in and find a community of my own, which we'll get there.

Growing Up Biracial in a White Community

Margi Dehlin [00:22:54] What was it like growing up, particularly now in this predominantly white community when, you know, a large part of your identity was biracial? Do you have any memories, particularly as a child or what you felt or if that, I mean, if that's the case.

Liz Lambson [00:23:14] Yeah, I, I, I remember a moment when I kind of realized how different I was. And a lot of my experiences grappling with my racial background come back to my hair, honestly. Like, I have this afro and my siblings don't, interestingly enough. So I look, I Pass and look more black than my siblings do. And. But I remember my mom had a friend over, a white woman, and she brought her son. We were like five or six, and she gave him. He was sitting next to me, and he just, like, loved my hair, and he wanted to play with my hair. And somehow he procured a comb, and he was trying to comb my hair, and it hurt. Like, it. You can't run a comb through this stuff, you know? And he was trying to comb my hair, and I looked at my mom like, help. Like, this is not. This is not okay, you know? But she and this woman were, like, looking at each other and smiling and laughing like, oh, this is so cute. This little boy is combing her hair. But I remember at that point feeling like that was when my hair became my enemy. And. And then my mom, my parents, before I started kindergarten, decided to start straightening my hair, relaxing it. Like, chemically relaxing it. She didn't know how to take care of it. My dad didn't know how to take care of it. So the easiest thing was to chemically straighten it. And that was kind of a way for me to fit in a little more in the white community by doing my hair the way that white women do. And that's still a thing. I mean, you know, Michelle Obama straightened her hair when she was the first lady, and she's, like, rocking braids now and all these different looks. And she has stated that when she was in the White House, though, she didn't feel like people were ready for that. And there's like, this look, you know, this more conservative look. Even now, I've found, as I've been getting into film acting, I used to have braids, like faux locs and kind of a dreadlock look. And I didn't book any gigs when I auditioned with that hair. And then the moment I took them out, I started booking stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:51] Interesting.

Liz Lambson [00:25:52] So hair. Hair was a big part of my childhood experience and the way that I saw myself. But generally, though, like, what's great when you're a kid, like, kids don't care so much. We just want to play. We just want to hang out. We don't think about it too much. We're not, like, super aware of, like, where. Where our parents really came from. We just know where we are at the moment. I was really oblivious to all things or not all things racial, but I know I was different. But I didn't process it until much later in life. I think

Margi Dehlin [00:26:47] another question just about you as a girl. Like, if you remember things about Yourself, how do you remember yourself personality wise or how do you visualize yourself growing up? Like other things that you particularly remember about your young self.

Liz Lambson [00:27:08] I was so, so shy. Like so shy and quiet. I just didn't speak. And that lasted till I was in high school. Like, I remember being in an art class and I was a little older, but being someone asking if I was deaf or mute because I was so quiet. So

Margi Dehlin [00:27:38] yeah, what was that about? What do you remember about that? Were you an observer? Was it, Were you. Was there fear associated with speaking?

Liz Lambson [00:27:49] It may have been a result of the way my mother raised us. It might have been an Asian culture thing where sort of that don't speak unless you're spoken to sort of thing. And like children are to be.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] My dad would say, seen and not heard.

Liz Lambson [00:28:09] Yeah, I mean, it wasn't that extreme. But I think that the way that my parents disciplined us made a huge difference. I was, I was afraid of my parents and I always needed to be in line. I always needed to be doing the right thing. And then I. And I also don't know if like my dad's paranoia trying to keep us safe, maybe that instilled in me like a fear of strangers as well. I'm not sure. I was just very, very quiet and introspective. And I guess that's still a part of my personality and probably what contributed to my development as a writer. Because my thoughts are mostly in my head, I think in words. In fact, I felt like when the opportunity to do this interview came up, I thought I had a choice to say yes or no. But then as a few days, as days passed, I felt like I no longer had an option. Like I had to do this because I started talking to you in my head. Like I'm one of those people who has like a script. Kind of like when you're watching the news and there are like words going by. And I. It just occurred to me recently that not everybody thinks this way. Not everyone can see like colors or pictures in their head, I guess. And some people, people don't think in words. But I'm usually talking to someone almost constantly in my head. And sometimes the character that I'm talking to changes. Sometimes it's a therapist, sometimes it's a friend. If I have an important conversation coming up, it's whoever that person is or anyway. But you've been sitting in my head for weeks now and I've just been saying, just talking to you. And I realized this is not going to stop unless I actually talk to you in person, like I will go mad. And that's the story of me as a creative person generally. Like there's sort of maybe the seed of something and it starts brewing into a storm and there has to be. It has to rain at some point. There has to be a pressure release. There has to be, it has to come out of my head somehow or it'll keep brewing.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:43] So was that true when you were younger too, that creative brewing when you look back?

Liz Lambson [00:30:49] Yeah, I was. I first. My. The first skills that I developed in the art world were as were visual art. I. I was kind of known and actually elementary school, middle school, high school as a. As an artist, like a visual artist, drawing, painting mainly. I wasn't as much into writing until my writing skills developed, but I was

John Dehlin [00:31:19] always

Liz Lambson [00:31:22] creative coming up with things. I think as a, as a young girl, it was most clearly manifested in imaginary play. My best friend when I was a little girl, she and I would have sleepovers and we were often. We were mice and we would build a nest with blankets and we'd go on adventures as mice at school. We had this great game in third grade that I loved and we'd play this at recess over and over, but we would play Mount Vesuvius and we would be running away from the exploding volcano, Mount Vesuvius. We had an imaginary pet lion named Harry. We would escape from the ashes and the toxic fumes, we'd make it to the shore, we'd get in a boat and we'd row away to safety. Things like that. I'm loving it. Love the imaginary play.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:22] Can I say it sounds like you had a really. A well developed inner world.

Liz Lambson [00:32:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:32] As a child. Is that true?

Liz Lambson [00:32:37] Oh, it's. I mean, it's hard to look back because, you know, all you know is what you know. I don't know what other kids were thinking at the time. I did gain a reputation very early on as being a smart, smart kid. Like I skipped third grade, so I went to fifth grade as a nine year old where the rest of the class was 10. And that set up an interesting dynamic as things went on. You know, I was always younger than everyone in my classes, but I was tall. And I developed kind of went through puberty and adolescence sooner than most, I'd say. But you know, by the time I got to high school, you know, people would. People were driving before I was or people were dating before I was or so I think that also influenced my kind of shyness because I was different. I was not only different because I looked different, but I was different because it's like that's Liz. She's the girl who skipped a grade and everyone knew it. Like she's, she's only 9, you know, and everybody's 10 and 11. Or like when I was, when they were 13 and 14, she's 12, you know. So

Margi Dehlin [00:34:11] if you were to describe a bit of what your family culture was or what it felt like kind of being in your home for you in particular, is there a way that you would describe that?

Liz Lambson [00:34:28] It was not great. We were very emotionally stifled. We didn't talk a lot. I mean, maybe the fact that there was a kind of a language and cultural difference between my parents. We weren't like a cuddly family. We weren't like, we weren't like the white families that my friends had. I'd go to their houses and it was like a totally different vibe. And then both of my parents had really, really bad tempers and I was afraid of them. So it wasn't, I don't know, I have, I have a lot of icky memories. I wasn't a super happy kid. It's kind of a. I mean in middle school people called me Eeyore. Like I was identified with, with Eeyore. Like the, the, from Winnie the Pooh, the blue sad donkey who's always like, oh hum.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:54] Oh, oh, oh no, it's not oh bother, it's Eeyore.

Liz Lambson [00:35:58] Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm just like, thanks. Oh, thanks for noticing.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:03] Oh, that's right.

Liz Lambson [00:36:03] Thanks for noticing me.

Mother's Departure and Its Impact

John Dehlin [00:36:08] So I guess I'm curious. I know your mom's story is going to come into play, but also your church, your conversion to the church. So where should we go next?

Liz Lambson [00:36:20] Oh yeah. Okay. Let me tell you about the religious explosion in our home. And this leads. This is a turning point. So there's a point where my mom was like, I don't like the Catholic church. I don't want to go there anymore. But my dad didn't want us to go to her church because it was like super intense. And so we did that thing where we went church shopping and we just kind of went to different churches. And there were so many options in Colorado Springs at the time and new options popping up all the time because churches are still moving in focus on the family was taking off their. And we settled on a Baptist church with a rock band where we could wear jeans and we would go and we'd sit in the very back row of the balcony. We would not, we didn't get to know anybody. We were Just in the background. It was sort of this. Maybe they're compromise of sorts, like, okay, we'll take the kids here. It's not her church. It's not his church, but it's a church where they'll be exposed to, like, good moral principles, and they'll have that experience, and there's nothing too. Too threatening about it. So that's. And that. And that's a point where I was like, mom, you should sing with the. With the Baptist. Like a band. They had the little. They'd have the. The three backup women singers, like, swaying and, like, adding the harmonies. You know, I was like, you could do that.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:02] Oh.

Liz Lambson [00:38:03] And at the same time, I was learning to play the bass when I was 8. So that was going on, this. This religious. These religious shifts were happening. But I learned this later. And I didn't know this at the time, but it sounded like my mom's religious fanaticism was affecting both her relationship with us, but it was becoming a thorn in the marriage. My dad later told me that she was starting to, like, squirrel away or take some of the family's money to give it to their church, to her church. She started having this desire to become a missionary for her church. And she and my dad were arguing a lot behind closed doors, and she was crying a lot. And. Oh, this is. I didn't mention this, but she. She was so religious. We had a prayer room in our house, and every morning we would do, like, a devotional. In the morning, we would pray, and at night we would pray. We couldn't wear. We didn't wear shoes in the house because it's an Asian household. Koreans don't wear shoes in the house. But we definitely could not set foot in the prayer room with shoes. And she would. We would read from the Bible. She started doing Bible study groups at our house. She wouldn't let me, like, me and my friends, like, at night, like, if I had a friend sleepover, we'd still have to read the scripture passage of the day. And I remember once having to read, like, one of the longest psalms, one of the longest chapters in the book of Psalms with my friend. And we're just, like, lying on the floor, like, dragging ourselves through this psalm so we can get out, like, move on and, like, play as mice in our nest, you know? But she. I remember watching her. So there were these French doors on the prayer room, so, like, kind of a sheer white silk curtain. And I remember, like, peering through one time and seeing her kneeling on the floor, like, rocking and sobbing and Just like. Like snot dripping off her face, tears, just like shaking, crying, praying. And this was just about the time before she left. And I think I feel like I was watching her process the decision, do I need to leave this family? And I. So I think she was tormented. She didn't. I mean, who. Something was. So something was going on that motivated her to abandon ship. So we were. I remember her beginning to make a lot of food. She. She made these big pans of food. Like, there was a big pan of bulgogi. There was a big pan of chajangmyeon, which was one of my favorite dishes and still is. It's like a. Like a black. A sauce, a salty sauce made of fermented black bean paste with pork and vegetables. And it's sort of served like spaghetti. You put this, like, chunky salty sauce on top of noodles. And she made a big pan of that. And one of her Bible study friends had this weird American recipe that we all thought was so unique, like chicken or turkey tetrazzini. And it was like some casserole with turkey and mayonnaise and cheese and stuff. And we were like, this is. This is so strange. And so she made that. Anyway, so she started, like, loading up the freezer with these big meals, and we're like, what's going on? You know, like. And turns out she was planning to go away for the summer to go back to Korea and visit her family. Or at least that's what we were told. But the thing is, we took her to the airport. My brother remembers her saying something like, we'll see if you guys miss me at all, or something passive aggressive like that. And she got on her plane and she went away.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:44] How old were you?

Liz Lambson [00:42:46] I was 10 at this point. I was 10. I had just turned 10. My birthday was on May 3, and she took her flight on May 25. And I never saw her again. We never saw her again. And I've never talked to her since. She sent a few cards and, like, a Christmas package with a bunch of little Korean trinkets and cute things. She sent me this, like, Goofy from Mickey Mouse, like, Mickey Mouse Goofy shirt that I wore all the way into college. But the cards kind of. After about a year, like, we stopped getting cards and. And then when I went back to look at the cards, I started wondering if the birthday cards were from my dad, actually just signed from her or from mom and dad.

John Dehlin [00:43:38] So if I could ask, and this may be impossible to convey in words, what's it like for a 10 year old girl to have her mother completely abandon her. What was it like for you?

Liz Lambson [00:43:53] It's horrible. It was horrible. I mean, but. But it's. It was unusual because initially I was relieved that she was gone because, again, she had a temper. Both my parents did. And her expectations for us. She was sort of. I hate to say it, but like a stereotypical Asian tiger mom who expected us to be absolutely perfect. So, you know, I remember a time when I brought home a stack of Math papers from 5th grade and I got whipped for every B. Anything that wasn't an A, I got whipped for to the point where I, like, collapsed on the floor, like, crying in pain and, like, just, you know, like, wanting it to stop. But that's. I mean, what set me up for, like, she set me up to be a perfectionist, which didn't play well later down the road when I was trying to be a perfect Mormon. But. So when she left, initially, I was relieved because my dad, on the other hand, didn't have the same kinds of strict expectations as far as, like, having perfect grades and being top of the class. And it was when she was still around that I skipped a grade. And it's like, this is my smart child, Liz. Elizabeth Rather. She. She and my dad always called me Elizabeth. But as some time passed, I did begin to miss her. But missing. Missing more like the concept of a mother. Like, there. There are those sad songs about feeling like a motherless child. And I became very. What I now recognize is depression. I was depressed. I would. I would cry myself to sleep almost every. I don't. I can't figure out how often I would cry myself to sleep. But from the time she left through high school, I would. I would cry all the time. Not during the day. We would keep our. Keep our emotions very. I would keep myself very together. And then by the end of the day, I would just be sobbing in my pillow. Like, burying my face in my pillow so that no one could hear me, like, try to. I was trying not to scream, like, or make any sound. So I would just make sort of these, like. Like these hissing noises, like. Like trying to. Not to be heard as I was, like, sobbing. And my dad was like. Like, I'd go through so many boxes of tissue on my nightstand and this little trash can, and it'd be, like, full of tissue. Cause I'd be, like, blowing my nose and wiping my tears like, every night again. It's hard to, like, look back and see how. But this. This was, like, a regular thing. And my dad was like, you're going through a lot of Kleenex. And we just, I was like, it's allergies, it's allergies. We just attributed it to allergies. But I would go through so much tissue, like just because I'd cry all the time. And, and do you think.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:07] And no one heard? I don't think so.

Liz Lambson [00:47:09] No one knew? I don't think so. And you know, we never talked about her. It just became like super taboo, I think. I think in the modern, in many modern families it'd be like, let's, let's take the kids to like a child therapist and let's talk about this as a family and make sure that everyone's adjusting emotionally. But there was none of that. It's just like she disappeared. And then I just was trying to understand on my own and sort of just came to the conclusion like that I was. That she, that I was ugly and that I was unlovable. And if I had been less ugly and more lovable, perhaps she would have stayed. That's kind of where I landed because it's like my own mother didn't love me enough to stay in my life. That's just what I concluded. And so my self esteem was very low. And I also. She wasn't there to feed us anymore, so there was a huge shift in our health and what we ate. My dad was working full time, so I was home alone a lot. My siblings and I were home alone a lot. Just latchkey kids, you know, because he worked. We walked to school, we'd walk home, lock the doors. And so things were very quiet and I just could eat like she was no longer there to like watch my diet or like make fresh food for me, like, or cut up fruit. And so I just started eating like huge bags of like family or like those super sized bags of Doritos and like frozen burritos. And we had a lot of, of processed, prepackaged, dehydrated foods. And that's what we would make for ourselves after school. And my dad was really good about making dinner. He. He'd try to make us red beans and rice once a week. He'd make pot roast, fried rice with Spam. We kept that one. And Hamburger Helper. We ate a lot of Hamburger Helper and anything that could be microwaved. So even grilled cheese was made in the microwave. You'd start with the toaster and then you put the cheese on it and then put it in the microwave to melt the cheese. Like he. I can only imagine what it Was like, for him to suddenly be a single dad. He, I look back now and I know he was doing his best, but I would complain so much about what we were eating. Like, it took until high school or as I got a little older and I started kind of taking things into my own hands and cooking. So my sister and I, we did more cooking, cleaning. We kind of took on the, the female work, or what was traditionally. Yeah, the traditional female work. So I did learn to cook at a young age, and I remember introducing the family to the onion in high school. I brought back the onion instead of onion powder or instead of the seasoning packet, just the seasoning packet in the cardboard box of hamburger helper or gratin, potatoes or rice, a roni or stovetop stuffing or. Yeah, like, I, I, I, oh, and then I have to mention my. There was one, there was one woman figure in my life from my family, and that was my dad's mom, my grandma. And she taught, she's the one who taught me how to make gumbo. And she, my dad made sure we had some time with her, and she, she helped teach me how to cook, too. So, like, southern foods like greens, the gumbo. What else? Dirty rice etouffee.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] Yum. You're making me, you're making me hungry. It's good food.

Liz Lambson [00:51:18] Yeah. Oh, this, like, really great dish with just, like, noodles and shrimp and spinach.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] You probably weren't able to learn your mom's cooking.

Liz Lambson [00:51:32] I learned a little bit, actually. I would watch her cook. So that's actually something that my siblings and I. That's the way we remembered her, and that's the way I still do remember her was through food. Because after she left, we still did try to make as much Korean food as we could. And so we'd get the Korean ramen at the commissary. I figured out how to make chajangmyeon, that black bean paste sauce thing, at some point. And we, we did a lot of, like, the easy stuff like spam and rice and those. Right. The rice cakes, the, the duck. T T UK or D U K is how you would spell it. Because we could, we could, we could make that easily and just add, like, gochujang or, like, spices. And so there, there were some things that we held onto and we, we would, that we kept part of our diet. But.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Yeah, but overall, must have been devastating to lose your mom.

Liz Lambson [00:52:42] It really was. It affected me and still affects me for sure. It just became, I just became like a sad child, and I still am sad.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:59] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:52:59] I just. That's, like, kind of like, changed the tone of my being.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Your personality?

Liz Lambson [00:53:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:08] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:53:08] It affected who I was, for sure. And then at this. Similar. Around the same. Well, it was when I was 13 that I started keeping a journal. I started writing. And I really think that my really getting into writing was a result of not having anyone to talk to. You know, like, other kids would go home, and I try to do this for my kids now, but, you know, come home from school and be like, how was your day? Tell me about your day. What did you do today? And I would come home to, like, my siblings, and I didn't, like, really interact too much. We were pretty. I don't know, we were just quiet. So I would. But I would come home and I started writing in a journal, and I would write for hours and hours, and it was the person that I talked to because I didn't have anyone to talk to. There was. I have a memory, though. Before my mom left, she was, you know, so. So religious, and she. She loved looking out our kitchen window at this beautiful, like, white chapel on the hillside, and she just loved it. She's like, I can see this beautiful church. And then she realized it was a Mormon church. And then she was like, ugh. Like, she didn't like it anymore. And she started putting. She put, like. Like, potted plants in the window. Like, couldn't see it as clearly and, like. But I could still peer around and I saw the Mormon church on the hill. But at the time, like, when I was younger, I didn't know the difference between Mormons and Muslims. Like, they sound similar. So when we drive by the Mormon churches and say, like, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints, I'm like, it just doesn't seem Muslim. It doesn't seem like it. Right. It's just so confusing to me, like, because they're totally different cultures, like, totally. That originated on opposite sides of the world. And so I was, like, so weird that it has this, like, kind of clean white look and no, like, kind of Middle Eastern flair. So it really wasn't until I made friends with Mormons. Do we want to get into that?

John Dehlin [00:55:35] Yeah. Should we jump into how you ended up investigating this?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:39] I have one final question about this time. I was just really curious. You've described it a little bit. Your relationship with your siblings after your mom left, but during that time of change, how would you talk about. Like, did you talk together? What you're. What you've described so far is so much, like, internalizing your processing, kind of

Liz Lambson [00:56:04] on your own alone?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:05] Pretty much. Did you ever talk about it with your siblings? And did you ever observe their processing? If their processing was different? Like, did they also process similarly?

Liz Lambson [00:56:21] I. I don't know. We. We didn't talk to each other. We didn't. We weren't the type of family to share emotions or share personal things. Like, you know, I would never go to my older sister and be like, I have a crush on so and so. Like, we didn't have that type of relationship. Things were really, like, it was just so taboo. We just didn't talk about our feelings. We were all very quiet. Very, very quiet. I remember this is such a crazy moment, but I remember I started my. When I started my period. No one had told me about that. I didn't know what was happening. So I thought I was dying. I thought I was dead. I thought, like, my life was ending.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:09] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:57:10] And so I, like, hobbled out to the backyard and was like, dad, I'm bleeding. And he's like, oh, go talk to your sister. So I, like, hobbled upstairs and I'm like, shaking and. And she just, like, grabbed me like, a pack of pads from her closet. And that was it. Like, we. That's what you got.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:33] That's what she got.

Liz Lambson [00:57:33] That's it. So that. That kind of describes, like, the level of communication in our home. Or like, just. Just like, we couldn't talk about personal things. Like, like when. When I was 13 or 14, I remember, like, very shyly asking my dad if I could buy a razor so that I could shave my legs. And I was so embarrassed to approach him about that. Or like, he took me to buy my first bra. And it was super awkward because we go to this section of JCPenney or whatever, and the woman's like, so what size are you? And I'm like, I don't know. I've actually never worn a bra. She's like, really? And then she measured me, and I was already like a full C.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:23] So

Liz Lambson [00:58:23] she's like, hooking me up with, like, a full grown woman's bra. And I had no. I just. I just wore, like, big baggy shirts and didn't. I didn't have anyone guiding me through that adolescent period. So that also led to me going into high school feeling, like, feeling really awkward and. Yeah, confused.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:44] There's this profound sense of aloneness also.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] Just, how do you learn to become a woman without a woman as a mentor?

Liz Lambson [00:58:55] Oh, this is where the young women's program.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:00] It makes so much sense with what you're describing.

Liz Lambson [00:59:03] Right.

First Encounter with Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:59:04] All right, should we jump into how that happened?

Liz Lambson [00:59:09] Yeah. Okay. So middle school, I started making friends with a couple of Mormon girls. Really, really good friends. And. And then when I started high school, So I was 13 when I started high school again, everyone was like 14, 15, 16, 17, turning 18. So I was 13 and I made. I had these Mormon girlfriends. And all of our names started with Elle. I won't say who they are, but all of us had names that started with Elle, Liz, and these other girls. And I would go to their houses and the feeling in their homes was just like nothing I'd ever experienced. They all had little siblings or larger families. So between like five and eight or nine kids in these Mormon homes. And I'd go there and was like, this is. What is this? Like, this is so different from what I was living at home. I mean, and I don't know if I want to get into it too much, but my dad was kind of violent. And so I also, I didn't feel safe at home, but I'd go to my friends houses and it was just like this lovely feeling, just like this light, wonderful feeling when I was in their homes. And I'd never been around little kids before because I had. I was the youngest in my family. Yeah. So I'd never been around toddlers or kids, like younger. And I was so fascinated and intrigued and charmed by their innocence and antics and their giggles and just like the funny things that they did. And I was like enamored by these toddlers, these little kids, like, they were so, like, pure and like, happy. They were just like purely happy kids. And. Which is not what I experienced as a kid. So I'm like, looking at. It's like, it was like. It was like observing aliens or something. Like, these are completely different creatures. So I. I was. Was I a freshman? Yeah, I must have been a freshman. I was 13. And my friends invited me to their church dance. This was my introduction, my true introduction to the Mormon world.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:00] Church dance.

Liz Lambson [01:02:01] The church dance. This was a little tricky. They kind of had to sneak me in because you're not allowed to go to dances unless you're 14. But again, I was younger than everybody, So I was 13. So they're like, we won't tell anybody. And I know that that like, was like a really difficult moral decision for them, but they're like, we'll just leave it up to you. And so I went to a dance and it was the first time I went into a Mormon church. And I loved it. I loved everything about It And I. You know, this is when boys are becoming a thing. And like, the first time a boy, like, held my hand and we did a little slow dance, of course, with enough room to keep a quad between your body.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] A quad?

Liz Lambson [01:02:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:56] Not just a Book of Mormon.

Liz Lambson [01:02:57] No. You got the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the New Testament and Old Testament in a stack that has to be between your bodies. And it was just magical. I had never experienced anything, like, the joy and just, like, ecstasy that I felt when I was in that environment. And so I just, like. I wanted to go to every dance that I could with them. It was so fun. It was so different, and just, like, a place where I could go and be just, like, purely happy and be with my friends and dance and, like, meet boys. And it's when I think. I guess it's maybe a time when I started wanting to look pretty, too. And then at the same time, I was in pit orchestra at the school musical. The musical was the nifty 50s. And I was playing clarinet in the pit. And also, actually, no, on this one, I was playing bass guitar. And in the pit, there was the most beautiful Mormon boy playing the saxophone. And he was a junior when I was a freshman. And I noticed him reading during, like, little breaks as we were sitting down there in the pit. He was reading some really thick book, which I believe was a quad, or what I would learn is a quad. And I went over to him, and I was. We were just sitting and chatting, and he became, like, friends with me. And he was, like, the. Probably the first boy that, like, actually just, like, talked to me casually and would ask how I was doing. That was an unusual thing for someone to ask me, like, hey, how are you? And, like, really mean it. That it, like, made me feel so special that he'd be like, hey, like, how's it going? Like, how are you? And I was like, someone cares. And not just anyone, but, like, this really cute boy. And so I. I asked him during pit orchestra because we became, like, close during his time. He was teaching me, like, how to solve a Rubik's Cube while we were down there. And I asked him what he was reading, and he was. Said he was studying for seminary. I was like, what is seminary? He's like, well, it's where I study my religion. And this is a Book of Mormon. I'm reading from the Book of Mormon. And I was like, what is that? I'd never heard of the Book of Mormon ever. And he kind of just, like, loosely described to me there were gold plates translated by a guy named Joseph Smith. And I joked and was like, oh, like Joe Smith. I would refer to him as Joe Smith, and he would get kind of clammy. And I guess I learned later that that's what, like, the mobs would call. The enemies would call Joseph Smith. Joe Smith.

John Dehlin [01:06:16] Where are your plates? Joe.

Liz Lambson [01:06:19] Joe. But I just was, like, trying to be, like, cute, like, oh, Joe Smith. And so he kind of. We started writing notes to each other. And he would write notes, and I'd be like, what? Tell me more about this. And he'd write back and be like. Like, it's a story about the Nephites and the Lamanites and where they came. Like, they came from Jerusalem or whatever and came to the Americas. And the Native Americans, like, the Lamanites became what we now know as the Native Americans. And just started introducing me to this. And I was so intrigued. It was so weird. And, like, I have always been, you know, as I described, like, from a kid, I've always been a little different. And, like, I am kind of a weird person. And, like, so Mormonism from the start, like, intrigued me because it was different and I was different, and it was different, and it was weird, and it was, like, a little bit creepy, but I kind of liked that.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:27] So.

Liz Lambson [01:07:28] And then when I. So he. He gave me this friend. I wonder if I should give him a name, because he becomes a very central figure in this story. What should I call him? Can I give people fake names? Okay, let's call him maybe.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] First letter, different name.

Liz Lambson [01:07:48] Yeah, let's call him Stan.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Okay.

Liz Lambson [01:07:52] All right, that works for me.

John Dehlin [01:07:54] Because your description of Mormon families matches the way Mormon families are depicted in South Park. And Stan.

Liz Lambson [01:08:02] Oh, is there a Stan in South Park? I didn't even know. I didn't know that. Oh, great. Okay, so we've got Stan. Stan gives me a copy of the Book of Mormon with his testimony written inside. And him giving that to me felt like he was giving me, like, the ultimate love note. We would pass notes to each other, and I was like, he is giving me his heart. Like, what's at the center of his heart? What's most important to him? He's giving me the Book of Mormon. And my other Mormon friends, they all wrote their testimonies in it too. It kind of got passed around. But, you know, prior to him giving it to me again, I come back to Joseph Smith as this character that I related with so strongly because he was 14. 13. 14. I was 13. And I. And I. When I Was reading the Book of Mormon. I turned 14. But I, like him, was like, which of these dang churches is true? My friends of all these different religions, I've been to, you know, three churches so far. The Catholic church, my mom's Korean church, and this Baptist church where my dad would still take us, and we'd sit in the back and not be involved. But I was, like, really starting to get curious about religion. And when you're that age, that's also when some of the kids begin to develop sort of a fanaticism because it's such an important part of their identity. And it's like they were gravitating towards that as what defined them as people. And so I was like, what is truth? And so I started reading the New Testament just on my own. Like, I want to know. I want to know what this is all about. And although I had read scriptures with my mom as a kid, like, you know those little cartoony pic, I had a. Do you remember Precious Moments? Those little cartoons with, like, the teardrop eyes, super cute. Precious Moments. I had a Precious Moments illustrated Bible. I think the NIV version was that new international. And then I also had another illustrated Bible that had the scariest, creepiest picture of Jonah and the whale that made me afraid of fish and water for the rest of my life. I still am, but, like, this dark picture with like. Like Jonah, like, sinking into the dark sea and then, like, coming out of the darkness. Like, it's not fully visible, but you see, like, the front of the whale coming out of the darkness, giant whale coming to eat him. Like, that's. That's how I understand the ocean from that. Anyway, that was a side note, but, you know, so I had exposure to, like, scriptures and some of these scriptural stories as a kid. But like you, I was becoming a young woman, and I was beginning to think for myself, and I wanted to know what was really true. And so I started reading scriptures on my own. And then I got this Book of Mormon. The day I got it, I remember I was standing at my locker when he handed it to me, and I was like, thank you. And I took it with me to my health class, and it was on my desk. And this is the health class. Maybe it was even that day we were watching the slideshow of STDs, you know, like, oh, just like, the contrast between, like, this, like, fresh book of scriptures and, like, the things that we were talking about in health class. But next to me was also another Mormon boy, and he's like, what are you going to do with it? And he was like, are you going to read it? I was holding it and thinking about it. And just probably during the passing period before that, I'd shown one of my girlfriends who was a very devout Christian and she said like, to burn it and don't read it and like, it's evil. And so then I. So I had that perspective. And then I go to class and sit next to a Mormon who's like, he was really. Actually, he wasn't pushy at all. He was just like curious as to what I would do. And I said, I think I'm going to read it. And so I did. I started reading it, I started devouring it. I read it. Like, you know, Mormons have these like, oh, there's so much in the culture, you know, but there's like that thing where the family will read a chapter a day. But I just was reading it like a novel, like a fiction book. But I wasn't reading it as fiction. I just assumed that it was absolutely, completely true. Yes, history. So I started reading it and then I would still write notes back and forth with Stan, asking questions, asking more questions. And. And it was sort of a way for me to get closer to this person that I was like head over heels for. You know, just falling in love with this blue eyed, nice white Mormon boy. And he. So it was like a way that I could get closer to him and have something to talk about with him too. But I just devoured it and would talk with my best girlfriend. I would turn to her and she's the Mormon friend where I went to her house the most often and got exposed to this whole new culture. Her mom would do canning, get produce from the Bishop storehouse and can fresh salsa and canned tomatoes. And I watched that and I learned how to make salsa myself and just started connecting with like I said, you know, I'd go to their homes and I was like, this is like a different. This is like an alien planet. And I like it. And so I started sort of trying to. Not even trying to, but I was just naturally so curious and in love with everything related to Mormonism. Like just all the things that made it what it was, made it so unique. Like canning. That's so cool. Like the sort of traditional food preparation or like homemade bread. The Mormons would make homemade bread. That's not. And they all seem to have this consistent way of living with their family. Scripture study. And then this was a terrible, what I now see as a terrible thing. But this boy gave me The Little for Strength of Youth Pocket version pamphlet. Because I was starting to ask questions about like, the social, the social life. There were like these age restrictions, like, you know, you couldn't go to a dance unless you're 14. And then I learned that the Mormons wouldn't date until they were 16. And I was like, dang it, because I'm again, I was younger than everybody by a year. So my Mormon friends would be able to start dating before I was because I started to adopt the way of life and prescribe it to myself. And as I was saying earlier, I had this perfectionist attitude. And there were kind of two groups of Mormons, I would say at school. There were the obedient Mormons and the disobedient Mormons, almost like a class system. And the obedient Mormons were also the ones who, like me, were in the honors classes and eventually the AP classes. And they were like these, they were very intelligent. And then the obedient Mormons would look down on the non obedient Mormons. But I was like, I'm with the obedient Mormons. And, and you know, I, I got to that point in the Book of Mormon where it's where I was instructed to pray. There's that verse. I remember exactly what I 104 where

Investigating and Converting to the Church

John Dehlin [01:16:20] you're encouraged to pray to know if the book is true.

Liz Lambson [01:16:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I. That my friends introduced that verse to me. Actually, Stan went through the book of my Book of Mormon and he highlighted all this, all the scripture mastery verses, the special, the highlights, the highlights of the performance. So I was aware of this verse and my friends, my girlfriends and Stan and this other guy from health class, we'll call him aj. AJ was best friends with Stan. They had all written their testimonies in the book and had written in that challenge, like, and, and, and then pray to know if it's true. And so I did that. But by the time I got to that verse, because it's towards the end, right?

John Dehlin [01:17:12] Yeah, very end.

Liz Lambson [01:17:13] By the time I got to that, I was already like, this is, this is true. Like it. All the good feelings that I had when I was with my Mormon friends, I sort of like, it's like all that would come into my body and my mind as I was reading the Book of Mormon because it's something that I could have at home with me when I wasn't in their homes, when I wasn't with them, when I wasn't at the church building for a dance, I could have the Book of Mormon. With me, in my home with me, and I could read it and I could connect with that whole world. So the Book of Mormon, it was so special to me. It was, it was, I mean, it was unusual, it was weird, but I just ate it up. Like I. Again, I was reading it like a novel and just would get up and read pages and pages and pages or like an entire book. And I got through it pretty quickly and was like, this is true and I want to join this church and I want to be baptized and I want to be Mormon. But what's interesting is I got to the very. It was literally the last page of the Book of Mormon. I had been reading this in secret. I didn't want my siblings to see it. I didn't want my dad to see it.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:31] I would.

Liz Lambson [01:18:32] In my room, there was this cool little space. Like I had a two door closet with a sliding door, and there was a gap between the top of the closet and the ceiling of the room. And my dad was super cool and he built a ladder and it was like a little loft and he put like a little edge on it so that it wouldn't roll off. And I had a blanket up there and I'd keep like some special stuffed animals and trinkets. And so I would often go up to my loft and read the Book of Mormon up there where no one could. Where no one could find me. And. But I was, I was, I misstepped when I was on the very last page and I think one of my siblings was listening to really loud music or something and I was like, this is it. This is the, the last page. I have to enjoy it. I was savoring it. And so I like plugged my ears and was reading the last page when I didn't notice. My dad came down the hall and he walked in the room and he saw what I was. He said, what is that? And he grabbed it from me and he immediately threw it on the floor and began just screaming at me. And I had no idea why this reaction was happening. I didn't understand, but he was just saying things like, you're not allowed to have this in our home. There's. This is unacceptable. And I was devastated. And he took it away. But little did he know, Stan had also given me a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of great price that also had the Book of Mormon in it. So after my dad took that Book of Mormon away, I was able to pull the other one out of my drawer and finish it. Finish reading it. I read the whole thing. And that began a new era of conflict with my father because it became this. This fight, this fight. I'd be crying and sobbing and pleading, like, just let me be baptized. Let me join the church. I just want to go. I just want to go to church with my friends. I mean, when I'd go to a church dance, I loved being there so much. I mean, it was all the things that I needed at the time as a kind of a lonely girl, like it was. And again, I don't want to get too much into what I experienced in terms of violence in my home, but it was a safe place. It was a safe place. And so when I was at the church, after the dances were over, I would sit on one of those floral couches in one of those little foyer areas, and I just would stay as long as I possibly could. I would sort of like. Like, you know, kind of linger or try to put off catching that ride home as long as I could. I just wanted to stay. I just wanted to be there, like, be in that place. It was. It was so. It was just like this place of peace and comfort. It felt like a sanctuary. It was my sanctuary. It was like the first time I'd.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] And,

Liz Lambson [01:21:51] you know, if I were to define the word sanctuary at that time, that was it. That was my safe place. So, you know, I'm begging my dad, let me go, and he's like, saying that I can't have a Book of Mormon in the house. Or. So then my friends were giving me, like, well, if you can't have a Book of Mormon, we'll give you the church magazines. So then I would read those, and then I was like, well, if I can't read the Book of Mormon, I will read everything else. So I read the entire Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of great price. And I read the entire Bible from COVID to cover. New Testament, Old Testament, all of it. To keep me entertained through the Old Testament. I would look for names for my future children. I'd like. Try to find unusual names. I really liked the name Reuben. This one I remember stood out to me. And then it gave me something to talk about with my Mormon friends. We talk about doctrines. We talked about kind of the Mormon interpretation of Old, New Testament, Old Testament. And then I, you know, I secretly. I had the Book of Mormon. Yeah, I had that Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon combo. So I still had a Book of Mormon. I just. It was just a secret. And then I. My dad would let me go to dances occasionally. And then at some point, I think during my sophomore year, he let me go to church. I got to go to, like, a sacrament meeting. And I just loved it. I just loved it. And. But he'd only let me go occasionally. And I. I believe it was my junior year when I. We made a deal. We made a compromise that I could go once every five weeks. I could go to church, the Mormon Church, once every particular. But then when I was a senior and my oldest siblings had gone to college, I was the last one left. I was able to go more often. I just had to ask week to week, and he would let me go because, you know, years were passing and I wasn't letting up. I was, like, regularly coming to him in tears saying, like, please just let me be baptized. Like, please. And.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:17] And at this point, were most of your friends Mormon at this point or at school? Were you still. Was your friend group diverse?

Liz Lambson [01:24:26] It was diverse, definitely. But, like, you know, my. My close. Like, I just had. I mean, a huge part of it was just the fact that I was so in love with Stanley, you know,

Margi Dehlin [01:24:36] like, it's a driver.

Liz Lambson [01:24:37] Yeah. I wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:24:38] Multiple years.

Liz Lambson [01:24:39] Oh, yeah. Oh, I follow. I. In the future, I follow him to byu. Oh, yeah, that's part of it. Because I was like, Well, well, here's. Here are a couple of things. I. Going back to the fact that he gave me the first Strength of Youth pamphlet. That was because I think I was asking, like, about these rules, like, because I'd hear like, oh, like, you. You can't wear sleeveless things. Oh, well, okay, let me change that about myself. What else? What else is in there? And so I finally got, like, the pamphlet itself and again, devoured it, because anything related to Mormonism, I was. I mean, I was a fanatic. I was like my mom. And I think that's part of what freaked my dad out, because apparently at some point my mom had called and was like, I am staying in Korea to do missionary work. That was, like, one of her big motivations. I didn't learn that till later, but, you know, so religion took my mother or was a factor. I think there were other things, too, in their relationship. My dad was a very difficult person to live with, and I was now living with that. But she, you know, religion took her away. You could blame it on that. That was one of the factors. Took her away from the family. So then my dad saw me getting completely absorbed in this religion, and it was like, pulling me away. It was making me different than the family. It was separating us. It was it turned him into my enemy because I saw him as the person keeping me away from church. And it's. It's so funny because, you know, when people. Teenage girls are known for being, like, difficult, I guess, I don't know, there's another stereotype or rebellious. And in my rebellious teenage years, my rebellious thing was to go to church. Like, I don't care what you say. I want to go to the. I want to be with the Mormons. Like, that was my teenage rebellion. Yeah. To, like, be Mormon or, like, pretend or, like, try, but. So given the first Strength of Youth pamphlet, I did a major overhaul of my life. I stopped watching rated R movies. I changed the way that I dressed. I started paying tithing. I wasn't even a member, and I started paying tithing.

John Dehlin [01:27:14] That is unbelievable.

Liz Lambson [01:27:16] And then I. I heard about the young women's. The. The young Women's in excellence thing. That award. Yeah, yeah. And, like, as a high achiever, I was like, I'm gonna earn that. I'm gonna get that necklace. And so I. I got that little booklet thing and the little associated little journal, and I. I did all of that. And I would go to young women's activities occasionally. And. Oh, that's where. That's where I found some new moms. That was magic. These wonderful women who were so nice to me. They were so nice. They were so nice. No one had ever treated me the way that these young women leaders did in terms of, like, I care about you, Liz. And they would tell me things like, you are a daughter of God and you are beautiful, and you have. What was one of. There's all those, like this. The young woman values, like, divine nature. Is that one of them? They'd be like, you have divine nature. And I was like, really?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:31] Really?

Liz Lambson [01:28:32] Because I thought I was this ugly girl that wasn't loved or lovable enough for even my own mother to care for me. And then there were these ladies, like, telling me, like, that I had a beautiful smile or, like, congratulating me for my little accomplishments or recognizing my artistic and music skills, and they were just, like, so wonderful. I mean, everything about it was great. Or I thought so.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] So I. I just want to highlight that tension that's emerging for me, because there's. There really is two ways to see a Mormon conversion. One is that the church is just really there for people who need it, need meaning, who need purpose, who need identity, who need morals or standards, who need family, community.

Liz Lambson [01:29:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] And. And what a. What a blessing it probably it was. Was to your life. At the time.

Liz Lambson [01:29:43] Yeah, right. It's like everything, the nurturing that I needed from the mom who wasn't there, I was finding at church or with this new religion. I wasn't always at church, but I. And. And it was. It was clear that connection. Like, I. I remember experiencing testimony meeting for the first time, going to church on a fast and testimony day and learning about fasting. And I began to fast. It was so inconvenient because I tried to do it secretly. And I thought that God was providing me a way to be Mormon, even though I wasn't baptized. Because it's like every fast Sunday, even if my dad was cooking something or somebody offered me breakfast, I was able to, like, sneakily avoid food without anybody noticing. And I'd always be able to get through 24 hours without eating because God was providing me a way to fast without my family finding out. Just, like, strange things. But I would go to fast and testimony meetings, probably junior, senior year, and I would go to the pulpit and I would just pour out my soul about all the things. How much I loved this true. The one and only true church, and how grateful I was to have found the true church, and how much I loved and identified with Joseph Smith and how beautiful the Book of Mormon was. And then I would often, like, mention my mom just, you know, I'd just mention, like, how sad I was after my mom left. And then how wonderful it was to find this and how it brought me happiness that I'd never. That I'd never experienced before. Like a level of peace that I'd never felt like. Like there was light in my life that I needed so desperately. It was. I mean, yeah, I think I. I don't know if I needed it. I wanted it, but I was fed, I was nurtured, you know, by this group of people.

John Dehlin [01:32:06] I often say that for many people, religious conversion is a social conversion. We were taught that it's an intellectual or an emotional, spiritual kind of thing. But, man, just. If you're seeing these families that are so. Seem so perfect.

Liz Lambson [01:32:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:24] You're seeing these kids that seem so happy.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] You're feeling all these voids in your life, whether it's maternal voids or social voids, friendship voids, moral voids, direction, purpose, meaning, what else is gonna. What else is going to present itself to a high school girl who's, in effect, been half orphaned? What else is going to present itself to her to say, hey, here's a path other than a religion, what else is there?

Liz Lambson [01:32:56] I don't know. Yeah. I mean,

John Dehlin [01:33:00] and who does that, who does that better than the Mormon Church these days?

Liz Lambson [01:33:03] Take you into the fold and nurture you. And they want you. They wanted me. That missionary spirit. My friends were so, so excited to be able to say our friend got a Book of Mormon and has converted. We converted somebody.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:22] That's right.

Liz Lambson [01:33:23] They could take credit for that. Stan. He got the ultimate credit because it's like I gave, I'm the one, I'm the one who gave her that Book of Mormon. Like, he was the winner.

John Dehlin [01:33:34] And did you ever get the date stand in high school? In high school?

Liz Lambson [01:33:38] Well, here's the thing. So I was, he was a junior when I was a freshman.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] Oh, okay.

Liz Lambson [01:33:44] So I was again 13 when I was a freshman and 14, turning 15 when I was a sophomore. So he wouldn't, he wouldn't date anyone unless they were 16.

John Dehlin [01:34:00] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:34:01] So. And also early on he said Mormons. He wouldn't say. They didn't say exactly. Well, no, they kind of did. They were like, mormons just date Mormons. And I was like, why? That doesn't. What. And, but the way they explained it is like we were encouraged and I think it was in the first strength of youth to like date. Date someone. Date people with high standards. Is that the way they phrase it? And high standards meant Mormon. It's like the same thing. You know, again, this was. The obedient Mormon crowd, followed all the rules. Yeah. So he wouldn't take me on a date and. But my junior year he was at byu and I was already like, I'm going to go to byu. Because I was really like, he's. He was the one who was like the oldest of nine kids and that was the biggest family. And I saw. So he had younger. His younger brother was in my grade. His younger sister was a grade below me. There were so many of them, you know, so many of those kids from that family everywhere. And. But his mom, this was a life changing moment for me. His mom was pregnant with the ninth kid. And I got to observe that because again, I'd never been around little kids. Children. And this was the first time someone like in my kind of, that someone that I interacted with regularly was pregnant with child. And then it was the night of one of our band concerts that she had the baby and I got to go to their house and see the newborn. And I'd never seen a newborn before. And it was like, it's, it's amazing. It's amazing. No one can deny that, like to, to, to see a, A new Life. I was. I was so floored and magical again. Like, magical aliens. Like, I mean, that baby could have been like, Jesus. I was that enamored. Like, come on, shepherds. Where the. Where are the three kings? Like, like, let's make this an event we are seeing. We have observed, like, a child has been born. I was so enthusiastic. And that's when I was like, I'm going to be a mom. I want. I want to do this, too. I want to be a mom. But, you know, as I was obsessed with Mormon culture, it wasn't like I was just gonna be a mom. I was like, I'm gonna have, like, eight kids. Eight or nine kids. And I just envisioned, like, I'm gonna marry Stan, and I'm gonna be the next generation. I'm gonna be the next. The next, you know, matriarch of the next generation of this family, this particular family. So I just had that in my mind. I had this goal. I was like, I'm going to go to BYU when I'm a junior and a senior. Or, okay, no, no, no. When I was a senior. Okay, no, no, no. When I was a junior. Stan was a freshman at byu. When I was a senior. He had left on his mission. I do end up going to byu, and I'll continue that. But. But I was like, I'm gonna marry Stan and have a big Mormon family. And this was so. It was nothing I'd ever, like, thought of before. I never wanted to be a mom. It was just not something I ever thought about. I honestly thought, especially when I was younger and, like, overweight from eating so many Doritos and frozen burritos, I was like, no one would ever marry me. That's not even. Like, I shouldn't even entertain the thought. Like, who would ever marry me? But then I, like, you know, after going to these Mormon dances and actually having boys, like, ask me to dance because they thought I was cute, I was like, wait a minute. Like, maybe. Maybe I could find companionship. Maybe I'm actually worthy of that. Maybe I could have that, too. And. But at the same time, like, I. Again, like, I was academically, like, an all star. Like, and I was also a really good musician. I was first chair on clarinet at school and first chair in the city Youth Symphony on bass, Colorado Springs Youth Symphony. And I got first chair at all state orchestra and Western States Orchestra. I was killing it musically and I was killing it academically and all the AP classes. And again, I was younger than everyone and everyone. Like, that was just, like, my expectation for myself, too. And what appealed to me with the Mormon crowd, too, because they're sort of elitist. And I was, like, all about that. Like, you guys are per. You think you're perfect. Let me be as perfect as you and even more perfect. Like, I was just all about that. It was like a game. Like, challenge accepted. You know, no rated R movies. Challenge accepted. Like, I remember my family went to go see Gladiator on a Sunday, and they. And I was, like, forced to go with them, and I was like, you are making me sin. What are you for? Like, just feeling like such a victim. Like, making me watch a rated R movie on a Sunday.

Navigating Mormon Life as a Teenager

John Dehlin [01:39:56] I mean, from your dad's perspective, there are worse ways a kid can rebel, right? I wonder if your dad realized at some level that there are a lot of worse ways a kid can rebel than to be a Mormon.

Liz Lambson [01:40:06] Right? I think that's what. I think that's why he kind of loosened up towards, you know, my junior or my senior year, especially once my siblings were gone, because it's like, oh, Liz, it's too far gone. She's too far gone. And, yeah, so he began to accept it. But still, I couldn't be baptized. That was the thing. And so that. That I. Speaking of just, like, not having a firm sense of identity, that also messed with me because it's like, okay, I can't say I'm black. Totally black. I can't say I'm Korean or totally Korean. I can say I'm both. And then I can't say that I'm Mormon because I'm not, like, totally Mormon. I'm not baptized. Like, it wasn't a. I wasn't a member of the club. The kids would. There were things that they were able to do that I wasn't able to participate in. Temple baptism. That was a big one. That was a big thing. But also, like, they would have, like, interviews with their bishop or patriarchal blessings. A patriarchal blessing. I wanted that.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] Did you try to do the seminary at all? Did you try and go.

Liz Lambson [01:41:19] No, I never went to seminary. That was not.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] That would have made it worse. It only accentuated the things you weren't able to do.

Liz Lambson [01:41:26] Yeah, I felt so the way that I described it, and I. And I put this in the letter that you read. But, you know, I went to a testimony meeting once, and I was like, I just sang to the congregation, like, I just want to be one of you. I just. I want to be one of you. I want to be able to call myself a Mormon. I Want to be baptized so badly. And I described it like. Like there was a glass floor or glass ceiling. The glass was their floor, and it was my ceiling. So I was looking up through the glass, walking, watching all of them walking together, kind of holding the iron rod, moving together on the covenant path. And they were legitimate members of the club that I wanted to join. But I was. I mean, maybe you could compare it to, like, the. I mean, the. The black girl looking at the white people, but in the time of segregation, where we're not allowed to share water fountains. And I just want to drink from their freaking water fountain. That's what I want.

John Dehlin [01:42:42] You're outside looking in.

Liz Lambson [01:42:43] Yeah. Like, can I just be one of you, Please? Can I drink from that same fountain? And so I describe that to Stem. Like, I feel like I'm on the other side of the glass. But here's the thing. I'm walking the same walk. I'm doing all the things. I got my young woman's medallion. I pay my tithing. I read my scriptures every day. I fast. I am doing everything that I possibly can walking with you, but I'm upside down and I'm on the other side of the glass. I'm following your footsteps, but I'm still on the other side. Like, what do I have to do?

John Dehlin [01:43:20] Is this what the New Era article is about? Being a dry Mormon?

Liz Lambson [01:43:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:24] Okay.

Liz Lambson [01:43:24] Yeah, yeah. So that article was about my experience when I turned 16 on my 16th birthday. I was a junior son of my junior year. And by that point, I think I had talked my dad into allowing me to invite the missionaries over for dinner. I even made them the family recipe gumbo. And I got out the fine china, my mom's china, which I now have actually her beautiful golden edges roses. It's the same china that was in Princess Diaries movie, and it was in my best friend's wedding. It's a very iconic China pattern that's pretty common. I think it's called Country Rose. Anyway, I got out the fine china for the missionaries, and so they would stop by every now and again just to check on me. So they came by one day, and it happened to be on my birthday, my 16th birthday. And I was like, hey, guys, it's my birthday. And they were like, are you 18? Can you be baptized? Is this it? And I was like, no, I'm only 16. I still can't be baptized. And I was just lamenting with them, and I was like, I just wish I could say that I was Mormon. I wish I could say that I was a Latter Day Saint because I'm doing everything. I'm walking the walk better than the Mormons are even walking the walk. Like, what do I have to do to, like, prove to people that I'm Mormon or be able to just say it. Just say it. And so the mission. One of the missionaries, he said, like, you know what? And. And we felt the spirit. We felt the spirit. It was tangible in the room. He's like, if you believe the Book of Mormon to be true and you believe that this is the true church, you are a Latter Day Saint. And I was like, I bestow upon thee, Mormon. Yeah, I was like, really? Like, I. And so that was a turning point. So that was the end of my junior year. So my senior year, I started telling people, occasionally, close, trusted people, I would identify as Mormon to them. But that got me in trouble. Like, there was a boy that I asked to. Sadie Hawkins, who was not Mormon. So cute. He had curly hair kind of like me. But at the time, my hair was straightened because I always had straight. I always straightened my hair.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:01] I was gonna ask you about that if that was something that.

Liz Lambson [01:46:03] That's part of the jo.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:05] If that was something that continued through high school.

Liz Lambson [01:46:08] Oh, yeah. I mean, it's this kind of sidetracking a little bit. But my dad. After my mom left, my dad didn't know how to do my hair, and so he started taking me to black hairdressers to relax my hair. And I never, like. I never considered it an option. Like, it's just, like, he would notice that my roots were growing out and make an appointment for me. And I think he saw that as a way also for me to be exposed to. To my black heritage. I didn't see it that way at the time. Like, looking. I have mixed feelings about it because part of me is, like, they were trying to make me look more white and fit in by straightening my hair. But at the. At the same time, though, like, my experience, going to black salons and having black women do my hair was the only time that I interacted with black people outside my family. That was. That was the only time I ever saw.

John Dehlin [01:47:02] Because your high school was predominantly white?

Liz Lambson [01:47:03] Yeah. There were, like, a couple black kids, but I wasn't, like, friends with them. There were maybe, like, you know, in my. In my grade. I can think of one other black girl in the entire grade, and one. And two black. No, one black kid, one black boy. There was another black kid in the year younger than me, so very few. We were very. There weren't very many of us. I did though, connect with some other half Asians because it was a military, because of the military bases. I mean, it's just a thing. It's just a thing that GIs would go and marry women from other places in the world and bring them back. So there were actually like other half Korean girls at school who had the same stories. Their dad was in the army and married a Korean woman. And so we, I did like super vibe with those people. Like we had a connection that was really cool. One of my actually neighbors just three doors down, she was half Korean and we were so proud of our Korean heritage. And her mom, later in life, they were, they were there when my mom left and I would go to their house and like smell the Korean food. And her mom later in life was like just expressing her regret that she didn't cook for us. Like not recognizing that, like how much I missed it. And like she had an opportunity to like bring us food sometimes, like real Korean food, and she didn't and she regrets it.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:37] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:48:38] Where were we?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:39] Okay, you were at Sadie Hawkins.

Liz Lambson [01:48:41] Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:42] And sorry, you brought, you brought up

Liz Lambson [01:48:43] that your date had curly hair. So I asked this boy to Sadie Hawkins and he was Catholic, from a huge family. He was like Stan. But Stan was gone. Stan was gone on his.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:57] So what are you to do?

Liz Lambson [01:48:59] So I found someone who was kind of like him. He was the oldest of, I think eight kids, kind of the big brother, which is very charming. You know guys who are good with kids. Yes. Like, so he was like that just like this quiet, like very sweet boy with a bunch of little siblings and just from this Catholic family though, and we went to Sadie Hawkins together and everyone dressed as like couple or like you, you dress up sort of as like a. A pair of something. So I made us shirts where either I was the cheese or he was the cracker, or I was the cracker and he was the cheese. And now that I think about it, it's kind of being a cracker is not a great thing anyway. But we were cheese and crackers. And I, and I did. We did a Mormon style progressive dinner with the Mormon friends. Also something I'd never heard of before, the progressive dinner, but it's something that they would do for dates. It was like this cultural thing that I thought was kind of co. So we teamed up with some of the Mormons and we had dinner at my house and I think we had bulgogi. I think I made bulgogi and I wore a Traditional Korean dress. Oh, wow. For dinner, which I took off and put my cheese shirt on to go to the dance. But. So he was the cracker, I think. I don't now.

John Dehlin [01:50:35] I was hoping you were the cracker.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:36] I know.

Liz Lambson [01:50:37] Maybe I was. It was a Ritz cracker, too. It was a Ritz. Anyway, we went to the dance and had this lovely time. And then he came back to my house and we watched a movie. And, like, there was this moment where we were playing with each other's hair, and I was touching his curly hair, and I thought, like, maybe this will be my first kiss. And then my dad comes, like, bounding down the stairs, like, okay. And he turns the lights on, and. Nice to have you over. And. But, like, so. So there was sort of this, like, this little, like, flirtation going on. And. But. But I also felt kind of guilty because he wasn't Mormon. And I was like, I'm supposed to date Mormons. This is a weird thing, right?

John Dehlin [01:51:25] Even though you weren't baptized yet.

Liz Lambson [01:51:27] But I. Yeah. And so he's one of those first few people that I said that I told him that I was Mormon, and then he, like, believed me. But then one of the Mormon girls at school, I think he invited him to church or something, and she's like, well, Liz comes to church and she's not Mormon. And so then he came back to me and was like, you lied to me or like, you're a fraud. Like, what? He was so confused, and just his opinion of me suddenly changed because he's like, you're saying you're Mormon, but our other friend is saying that you go to church but you're not Mormon. And I was like, no, I believe it. I, like, like you, if you just knew. And I gave him a copy of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:52:15] That's who said I was.

Liz Lambson [01:52:16] Yeah. And, like, I just was trying to. And so I gave him a Book of Mormon. And then he, like, wouldn't talk to me anymore. It was so sad. I do want to rewind to the previous years when I was 15, before I was allowed to date according to these standards that I prescribed to myself, a boy asked me to homecoming, and I was 15, and I didn't know what to do. I was like, what do I do? Like, he was just such a nice kid. And so I ended up saying yes, but I felt terribly guilty to be going on a date when I was 15 to homecoming. And it turned out fine. I didn't really like him. But then that year, junior year, there was also Sadie Hawkins. When I asked another non Mormon, beautiful blonde kid to Sadie Hawkins. And at that dance, it may have been those two dances, that homecoming and that Sadie Hawkins were the first school dances that I went to. I only went to the church dances and at the. And my Mormon friends would tell me, like how bad the school dances were. People could not fit a. You could not fit a quad between the kids dancing at the school dance. It was a different. Different energy, different music and. But I went to this Sadie Hawkins my junior year and it was the first time I danced really close to somebody. And like, the feelings that were coming over my body was like, I didn't know what was happening to me. It was the first time I felt like this feeling and I didn't know what was happening. And. And he like, slid his hand in my jean pockets and I was like about to like, faint. Like, I was like. But I felt so guilty because I knew we were breaking the rules and we were dancing too close. And I went home that night and I started like writing in my journal and I was like, I have done something terrible. I will never feel these lustful feelings again. And I put it in my mind that I was going to write a book about bearing with. And each chapter would be my testimony of. Of each section of the first Strength of Youth packet. I came up with this idea after I went to this dance. Like, I am better than this. I'm not going to allow myself to feel those feelings again. I will repent. And as part of my repentance process, I will write an entire book bearing my testimony of these principles. And I wrote the first chapter of it that night. I think about my testimony of the law of chastity. It's all so extreme, isn't it? It's like. I don't even know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:55:29] I think I remember reading in an outline you wrote at one point feeling a lot of guilt and shame over masturbation.

Liz Lambson [01:55:37] Yeah, let's talk about that.

John Dehlin [01:55:38] And I'm. I'm wondering if that happened in high school or at BYU later or both or if this is even the right time to bring it up.

Liz Lambson [01:55:46] No. Yeah, no, I mean, when that.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] Did I get that right? Did I remember that right?

Liz Lambson [01:55:49] Yeah. When I read that in the pamphlet, I did everything I could to like, try to. To not do that anymore, but I would fail and slip up and would feel horrible. Horrible. And that at BYU was. We'll get to that at byu. But that.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:16] But it's present in this timeline.

Liz Lambson [01:56:18] Yeah, that's when that Principle was introduced to me, like, oh, something I've been doing since I was 10 or 11, like, because I went through puberty very early, started my period very early, and I just didn't even know what this. What that was, what. What I was doing. And it was. And it was such a, like, soothing thing to me as a depressed kid. Like, it's something that helped me relax.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:46] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:56:47] Especially, like, you know, I would cry myself to sleep all the time and was just miserable. And it was like this. Yeah, it was. And then I learned that it was bad. So I really worked hard through high school to not do that. But it. Well, and this is the thing. It's like, things were really great. It's almost like my Mormon life before I was baptized was kind of better than my Mormon life after I was baptized. There's an element there that was missing, and that was like, these kinds of worthiness interviews. I didn't have to deal with that when I was a dry Mormon. I didn't have any bishops interrogating me about my behaviors. And that only began after I was baptized. So things really started going downhill after I was baptized because there was. There were. Because once I was baptized and. And we'll get there, but. But we're gonna. We're gonna experience temple stuff, patriarchal blessing, which set, like, kind of new expectations and worthiness interviews, ecclesiastical endorsements, all that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] Okay.

Liz Lambson [01:58:11] But in high school, I was completely unaware of that. Any changes that I made in my life, it was like I was accountable to me and to God. I would repent of my sins. I would change my habits. I would begin new habits, such as daily scripture study and praying twice a day. And I was only accountable to me and God. There was nobody else who was like, are you doing this? Say yes or no. Are you doing this? Yes or no? It was just, like, I was just able to sort of manage my own worthiness. And I had very, like, you know, I've established. I had very high standards for myself. So I was doing pretty well overall, I think. But it was, you know, I stopped wearing sleeveless clothing. This is really funny. My Mormon friends mentioned at some point that Mormons wear white underwear. And I know that they're referring to garments now, but at the time, I didn't know that. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to get rid of all of my floral panties, and I need to buy white bras. And I did. I went and I bought white panties and white bras.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] And as a not yet baptized woman.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:30] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:59:31] I was only allowed to wear white underwear. From what I understood. I was so easily influenced. I was just like a sponge. Anything that they said I would do, anything I just. Like anything I was. I believed anything. And everything that they said, I was just eating it up. So, yeah, and I would go shopping with my. One of my best, my other best friends who lived on my block, who was not Mormon. And she was baffled observing me making these changes in my life. Because, like, we would go clothes shopping together and it's like, okay, last year we were buying tank tops together and this year you're not. And then like, wait, last year you would sleep over at my house on Saturday night and this year you won't because you're breaking the Sabbath. Like, what the hell? You know, she was like so baffled and she's like, you're doing all of this for Stan. And that's, that's also a reputation that I started getting. My sister started saying that too. Like, people were like, liz is just trying to be Mormon because she's in love with Stan. She just wants. She's trying. You know, that was, that was. And I think that that was actually a part of it. That was an element for sure.

John Dehlin [02:00:52] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:00:53] Because I knew he wouldn't date me if I weren't Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:56] Can I ask you a question about that?

Liz Lambson [02:00:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:57] Do you have a. So you kind of were speaking earlier that. That you started have having this dream form in your mind around Stan. So with Stan, do you think ever aware of that?

Liz Lambson [02:01:10] Oh, definitely. And I think he was sort of flattered, but he also was in love with another Mormon girl. And I was so jealous of her. And I started to like, try to be her as well, but I could never be her because she was white. We didn't get into this yet, but in the Book of Mormon there are quite a few verses. Well, the whole thing is very. They're. There are two, like racial groups. There are two tribes that look different. You have like the dark skinned Lamanites and the white skin. We all know in this room that this is some problematic stuff in the scriptures. These lines about, you know, dark and loathsome and filthy people versus the white and delights and delights the white and exceedingly fair and beautiful. I have like these printed out. They were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome. That they may not be enticing. All right, let's see. They may not be enticing unto my people. The Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

John Dehlin [02:02:26] So God made Lamanites in the Book of Mormon. Dark. So they would appear repugnant to the white Nephites. Right.

Liz Lambson [02:02:32] Yeah. And then cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed. And that was something that my friends also mentioned that they're like, well, Liz, like, I hate to break it to you, but, like, Mormons usually don't mix well. Mormons don't marry non Mormons. And because you can't get married in the temple to a non Mormon. And then they didn't phrase it like, that they don't mix races, but they would phrase it like, it's discouraged to like, marry someone of a different culture because you won't, like, you won't, like, identify with each other. Connect with each other. Yeah, you might. Yes. You might not be as compatible if you're from different wink, wink cultures. So. And I, like. So that was also such a bummer because, like, no matter what I did, I would never look like the girls that Stan seemed to be interested in. And so I thought, like, well, maybe, maybe I could win him over with my domestic skills if I. If he can see how good a cook I am, how good a seamstress I am, how I can knit, how I can do all these homemaking skills. Like, you know, I was good at everything.

John Dehlin [02:04:00] Overcome your dark skin.

Liz Lambson [02:04:01] I don't know, like, just to fit, like, whatever's. Whatever he was looking for, I was trying to be. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:08] It's like, I can earn that love. Yeah, I'll hustle for that love.

Liz Lambson [02:04:11] And so my senior year, I was still. Was I still. No, no, no. Okay. My junior year, because he. My junior year was his freshman year at BYU. And even though I was 15, prom. The junior prom or the junior senior prom is combined. Prom was like four or five days after or before my 16th birthday. I was going to be 15 for the prom. And I was like, panicking, like, I just want to go to the prom, but I'm not allowed to date till I'm 16, which is a rule that I applied to myself. And I made those. A couple of exceptions, but that last one, that Sadie Hawkins with that boy who put his hand in my pocket, that was bad. You know, I'm not going to do that again. But I was like, this is my one chance to, like, go maybe, like, express my feelings to Stan. And so I wrote to him, or we were chatting online on, like, AOL instant Messenger, and I asked him when he was finishing his semester at byu. And it was going to be like a few days before the prom in Colorado. Springs. And I asked if he would. I asked him to the prom. I asked him if he would go to the prom with me and he said yes. And he made an effort to drive back from BYU like right after his finals so that he can be there, but I was like, this is it. This is my first date with Stan. Like, finally we're going to the prom together.

John Dehlin [02:05:52] So you went with Stan to senior prom?

Liz Lambson [02:05:55] To my junior prom.

John Dehlin [02:05:56] Okay. Junior prom.

Liz Lambson [02:05:57] He was just finishing his freshman year before his mission. Yeah, he just finished his first year and then he was going to go leave on his mission that summer.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] So you got a date with Stan.

Liz Lambson [02:06:06] I got one date with Stan before he left on his mission. And he knew how much I liked him and he was so generous and just like. And knew it was my first prom and just like made it really special. He wasn't like, clearly he wasn't like super into me, but he, like, we were friends. He always saw me as a friend. I was always a friend. And he did care about me. And we always like, you know, wrote emails to each other and notes to each other and so like, he did care about me as a person, but he wasn't like romantically interested, but he made sure that I had a great night and. Oh, I was going to say about, about that.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] Well, you were, you were talking about not being the right. Not being white enough.

Liz Lambson [02:06:55] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] Being a domestic goddess to make him happy.

Liz Lambson [02:06:59] Yes. Oh, yes. I made my prom dress. Like, I was like, if Stan doesn't want to like propose to me over the quality of this prom dress, I don't know what's wrong with him. I made from. I secured it.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:13] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:07:13] I designed and made from scratch a Renaissance style dress.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:20] Wow.

Liz Lambson [02:07:21] With like fluttery sleeves and a corset. Like a corset. Like a lace, lace up thing. Like, I learned how to do eyelets to make this dress.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:31] That is amazing.

Liz Lambson [02:07:32] And I like even like sewed like this colored ribbon into these braids, like these little into my hair. Like, I was like, if this doesn't win him over, will anything. And he was so impressed with my dress. Everyone was at the same time. I'm remembering that while I was making this dress, I had a terrible experience with my dad. And I wasn't sure if I was going to share this, but this just sort of maybe emphasizes how things were at home versus how I felt with my Mormon friends in their homes. But I like left the iron on that I was using to press the pieces of fabric as I was sewing and I left it on. And my dad got really mad about the iron and was yelling at me from across the house. And this was probably one of the worst things that happened, but he yelled at me. I was like, what's going on? And he was like, you left the iron on. You could burn the house down. And he took the iron and he pressed it on my hand so that I could feel how hot it was or, like, understand the severity of the situation or something. And it was, like, horrible, obviously. And I went to school that day and was just fighting back tears all day and, like, kind of just like, touching my red hand all day. And, like, my dad felt bad about it, and he, like, called and invited me to go out to lunch with him, and he wanted to make it up to me, and I said no, but. And then later that evening, he was like, I'm so sorry. Like, I should have explained that in a better way. And then he, like, as an engineer, he, like, drew me a picture of, like, how irons work and, like, electrical current. And I was like, this is how I should have explained it to you. Like, how something like that can overheat. And he was very apologetic, but that was just, like, one example of how he would lose his temper and lash out at me. And I didn't like it. And then, like, my Mormon friend's parents were just, like, so. Not that way. They were so. Just different. But, you know, like, so I was taking these AP classes around the same time that I'm like, I'm gonna be a domestic goddess. And Mary Stan, one of my. My AP History teachers, she was, like, the most. Her class. Her AP History class was, like, known as the hardest class at her school. And I took it. I did well. And she was so impressed with my writing. Actually, Stan was the one who inspired me to start a journal because he had a journal. And he kind of told me that, like, Mormons keep journals. You keep your personal history. It was almost like a part of the religion, the religious practice, to journal.

John Dehlin [02:10:38] Yeah, sure is.

Liz Lambson [02:10:39] So I started a journal. And that was also that, you know, I said earlier was my. That was where I went to tell the person who wasn't there how my day went. And so I became a really strong writer because I would write, like, hours. I can imagine I wrote a lot. In fact, my dad grounded me from my journal. One of my favorite movies or stories. It's also a book, but Harriet the Spy, I love that movie. And it's. Young Harriet is grounded from her journal because she's writing mean things about her friends. But I was grounded from my journal because I was staying up late and, like, writing when I was supposed to be sleeping. So my dad took my journal away for a while, and I just wrote on, like, loose leaf pieces of paper and then like, taped them into my journal when I got it back. But anyway, I was a really strong writer. And my AP History teacher noticed this, and she, like, read aloud one of my essays to, like, our classmates. And then she, like, pulled me aside after school one day, and she's like, liz, what are your plans for the future? Like, what are you thinking in terms of college and stuff? And I think it was. This was junior year, and I was so into this Mormon stuff, right? And I told her I was like, I'm not sure I want to go to college. I think I want to get married and have kids. And she introduced to me what the Mormons would say to me, too, which is, well, in case something happens to your husband, it's. It would be good for you to have an education, too. And I was like, yeah, okay. And then. And then I was like, yeah, I'll go to byu. Then if I go to college, I'll go to byu.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:38] And.

Liz Lambson [02:12:41] And then my senior year, I did. I applied to byu. And although I was really strong as a visual artist in painting and drawing, watercolor, oil, acrylic, and cartooning, actually I took lessons as doing caricature art. You know, when you go to, like, the circus or the fair and somebody does caricatures, I actually had, like, a mentor and learned that style. And then my dad had me take cartooning lessons, and I had this dream to become, like, a comic strip writer. I was super obsessed with Calvin and Hobbes. And then I wanted to be or like, a Disney animator or one or both of those things. I wanted to be a cartoonist. And that's still my strongest skill in arts, is, like, cartoony line drawing is my strength. So I thought that I would go to school to study visual art. But then by the time I was a senior, I was winning these all state first chair spots on string bass and realized that's probably my best chance to getting into school or getting a scholarship. Getting a scholarship. So I auditioned at CU Boulder, Colorado University, Boulder, the. Whichever school is in Greeley, Colorado. UNC University in Northern Colorado. People who go to those schools, they're like, you don't know. I got off and I submitted a VHS tape audition to the BYU music

Arriving at BYU and Getting Baptized

John Dehlin [02:14:36] school, which is quite prestigious, as I said.

Liz Lambson [02:14:39] It is. It's very. It's A good music school. It is good. And I got offered scholarships to all of those schools on first string bass performance. And I just knew I was like, my dad's never going to let me go to BYU because he's. He was going to pay for my schooling. And I was like, he would never, you know. But then I approached him with my college acceptance letters and he was so cool about it. And again, by this point, he was kind of like, I can't. I can't talk her out of this at this point. She's just too. She's too deep into it. And he was so cool about it. He, like. He was like, okay, let's. Let's draw up a little. Let's do some math here. Let's see which is the most affordable.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:27] And

Liz Lambson [02:15:30] so he. But again, my first year, I didn't get that, like, deduction or that. That discount that you get when you're actually a member of the church.

John Dehlin [02:15:39] Oh, yeah, Member deduction.

Liz Lambson [02:15:40] Because again, I was younger. So my first year at BYU, I was 17 the entire year. I don't. So anyway, my dad, he's just. He's doing the math by hand. He always did that. Calculators. Bah. He sent me to school for show and tell in elementary school with a slide rule saying, like, show your friends the slide rule. That's how you do math. That's how it's done. Or like, by hand. So he was like by hand with a pencil, writing out all the numbers for these, the various schools, the tuition, approximate cost for books, housing, etc. And then and adding it all up. And I think things came out pretty, like, pretty evenly. But he had expressed. I was the youngest. He had expressed that he wanted. My sister had moved to New York and my brother had joined the Air Force Academy and graduated and was kind of off in the world at some other. He was off doing the Air Force thing, stationed somewhere else in the United States. I can't remember where at the time, but he was like, wanting me to stay in Colorado in case something happened to him. But I was like, no, I'm going to Utah. I'm going to the promised land. I can't stay here. And again, I had this relationship with him where I didn't want to stay there. I knew that when I left home, I was never coming back. I didn't want to go back ever. And so I was like, no, I. I want to go to byu. And he was like, okay. And so I accepted and that was my future. That would be my future.

John Dehlin [02:17:36] So the Way I want to end this first part is with your baptism. Unless that. Unless that goes far into your BYU experience.

Liz Lambson [02:17:46] Well, how much longer should we make segment one?

John Dehlin [02:17:50] We should wrap up pretty quick. We're at two. We're at 2:15.

Liz Lambson [02:17:53] Okay. So we should not.

John Dehlin [02:17:55] Because we're in any hurry. We just want to make these bite sized chunks.

Liz Lambson [02:17:58] Yeah, yeah, no, the. The first year at BYU is an interesting experience, so I think. I think just graduating high school is probably a good place to end.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] Okay.

Liz Lambson [02:18:10] I'm trying to think what else I might toss in from this time period and my experience with the Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:18:20] So when. When you were just to maybe jog your memory a bit also. So as you're graduating, Stan is on his mission.

Liz Lambson [02:18:28] He left on his mission that summer. Yes. And I decided that I would write him, like, every week. And I told him this, and he's like. He tried to tell me, like, you know, chatting on AOL Instant messenger, which

John Dehlin [02:18:45] I think is against the rules.

Liz Lambson [02:18:47] Is it? Oh, no, no, no. He wasn't on his mission yet. Just before he left, we're chatting and he's like, liz, there are other fish in the sea. And I was like, but none like you.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:00] None that compare.

Liz Lambson [02:19:02] There are no likes that are like you, Stan. And like. And he's like, you don't need to write me on my mission. I'll be. He was, like, trying to explain, like, I'll be very busy. I'll be very busy. And I was like, no, I will write you. I will write you. And so he left that summer, the summer before I went to byu. And I did start writing him. But here's a teaser for the next episode. This. I was so excited that he was called to serve his mission in Hawaii with Polynesians with brown skin like me. And it occurred to me that if he could learn to love those people, he might be able to look past what I looked like and love me too.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:52] Look past.

Liz Lambson [02:19:53] That's just so telling. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:56] I thought you were gonna say you got called to South Korea and he converted your mom.

Liz Lambson [02:19:59] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] No, no, no. But your story's better.

Liz Lambson [02:20:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] That's a really good cliffhanger because, like, does Liz date, stand at byu? Does Liz get baptized at byu? And then what's her BYU experience like once she comes to Oz? Once Dorothy.

Liz Lambson [02:20:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:20:24] Comes to Oz. Oh, and I triggered something. Once Dorothy comes to Oz, gets baptized, and now has to have the worthiness interviews. Has the full experience and the full Mormon experience. And that's going to be part two.

Liz Lambson [02:20:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:40] And then part three is going to be your deconstruction.

Liz Lambson [02:20:42] But what did I get? A couple quick things. You reminded me. So I. I began to, like, sort of sense, you know, as I was 15 and 16, that maybe there was a little difference between, like, Mormon culture and, like, Mormon Nism. Mormonism. And it really, like, became my. It was brought to my attention when my friends, we had a movie night and we watched the movie, so Singles ward. And they were all, like, laughing at all these little funny inside jokes. And I found it, like, truly offensive. I was like, this religion means more than the world to me. And you're laughing at it. You're laughing. You're making jokes about things that are so sacred to me. How can you be like that? It was, like, beyond me. I just. And that's when I realized, like, wait, there, I'm missing something here. These were, yeah, like, the inside jokes that I wasn't quite getting.

John Dehlin [02:21:52] Making light of spiritual things.

Liz Lambson [02:21:53] Yeah. It was so distasteful to me. And little did I know that's like, what byu. Like, that's, like, the essence of byu. But before, though, before I went to byu, I did a campus visit with my brother, and my older brother drove me to Utah. And this was my first time in Utah when I went to visit BYU for the campus tour and to meet who would become my base professor, one of the most cherished people in my life, who still. We're still very close. And my brother and I drove out there, and I remember I was so excited. I was so excited to see Utah. See this place where Brigham Young brought the people. And as we drove into the state, I started seeing them. I started seeing the churches. So many churches, identical churches just dotting the skyline all across the horizon. The closer we got to Provo, the more there were. They were just Mormonism in abundance. Churches left and right. Like, oh. I was like, this is. This is heaven. This is the promised land. Like, this is it, Emerald City. I was, like, blown away. Like, you know, there are actually quite a. Quite a. Quite a. There's a substantial Mormon population in Colorado Springs. Colorado Springs, again, it's like a. Became a very conservative Christian Republican city. And the Mormons were part of that. So it was a good place where there was pretty decent Mormon population. But Utah, oh, my. Oh, heaven help us all. Utah was something else. And so we got to campus, and I get in, like, a golf cart with my brother, and they're gonna take us around BYU and talk to us. And this. The tour guide made this little comment he was like, and, of course, this is a great place to find your eternal companion. And my brother was like, what is he. What is he talking about? Like, you're not going. You're 17. And I think I was. Actually, I was probably still 16 because I turned 17 right at the end of my senior year. And he's like, what is this dude talking about? Like, my little sister. My littlest sister. And here's this tour guide telling me that. Talking to me about finding my eternal companion at byu. Like, that cultural element. I did not. I didn't. I don't think I realized it too. Like, how big a part of the BYU experience would be in terms of. This is the place where you will find your eternal companion.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] Literally, why I went cliffhanger and I found her.

Liz Lambson [02:25:01] Oh, amazing.

John Dehlin [02:25:03] I'd be.

Liz Lambson [02:25:04] Anyway, so will Liz find her eternal companion at byu? We shall see.

John Dehlin [02:25:10] Have you seen the musical Wicked?

Liz Lambson [02:25:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:14] Like, I just had the. Just the realization that this idea of Alphaba with a skin color that wasn't.

Liz Lambson [02:25:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:22] You know, going to Oz to meet the wizard to finally fit in. I'm not trying to force that narrative on you.

Liz Lambson [02:25:30] No, it's very much. Yeah. It's been a long time since I've seen it, but I don't think that even crossed my mind the one time that I did see it.

John Dehlin [02:25:38] I would love you to.

Liz Lambson [02:25:39] So I was so, like, distracted by the music.

John Dehlin [02:25:42] I would love you someday. I would go take you to see.

Liz Lambson [02:25:47] Go see Wicked.

John Dehlin [02:25:48] See Wicked. Have you kind of fit yourself into Elphaba's character? Have her going to Oz, meeting the wizard, expecting to finally be loved and accepted.

Liz Lambson [02:25:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:00] And then eventually empathizing with the groups that are being harmed, and then becoming disenchanted with giving away.

Liz Lambson [02:26:12] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:26:14] Anyway, I just had to throw that in.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:16] Better stop there.

John Dehlin [02:26:17] Okay, well, that's the. So that's the teaser. This ends part one of our amazing interview with Liz Lampson. Thank you, Liz, for part one. Thank you, Margi, for writing Shotgun.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:29] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:26:30] And that's just part one. Part two is going to be Liz's experience at BYU and her experience if she finds love and if she has kids and if she tries the devout Mormon route, that will be part two.

Liz Lambson [02:26:49] It's gonna be really good. It's. So there's some really juicy stuff in the.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:54] In.

Liz Lambson [02:26:55] In part two, so don't miss it. It's a ride. It is a trip.

John Dehlin [02:26:59] And then part three will be your faith's deconstruction and reconstruction, if that exists.

Liz Lambson [02:27:05] I. Yeah. I would say, you know, as a little teaser for part three, it's sort of like you. Well, you know, from my introduction that I have five children, and it's when we decided we were done and then kind of like, whoa, what have we created?

John Dehlin [02:27:23] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:27:24] How did we get here? And what is the future gonna look like now that we have five kids?

John Dehlin [02:27:33] Now that you're in it.

Liz Lambson [02:27:34] Now that we're living it.

John Dehlin [02:27:36] And you are kind of premiering a song. Do you want to mention that really quick?

Liz Lambson [02:27:40] Yes. Yeah, I wrote a song and I. It's called Never Too soon, but I think I probably want to dive more into, like, the. The nitty gritty of what prompted me to write it and what it's about. But I just wanted to do a

John Dehlin [02:27:58] teaser to let people know we're going to be in part two or three. We're going to be premiering a song that you wrote.

Liz Lambson [02:28:06] Yes. So I wrote an original song. Yes. This will tie in definitely more with part two, because it's when I. There's a new dream that comes in, which is to be like a rock star, but it's a song called Never Too soon, and it's sung or told from the perspective of the baby Moses. And it's. It's about his relationship with his mother and. And the church. The Mormon Church is represented by his mother. They have a very meaningful connection, a very real connection, but they do part ways.

John Dehlin [02:28:55] All right, well, so those are the teasers. So thank you for joining us for part one of our interview with Liz Lambson, and we hope you will join us for parts two and three. They're going to be epic. So thanks, Liz.

Liz Lambson [02:29:09] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [02:29:10] Thanks, Margi. And thanks, viewers and listeners for joining some Mormon Stories. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel and our Facebook channel. We're about. We're trying to hit 100,000 subscribers, and your subscriptions can help us put us over the mark. The reason why that's important is because it helps with the algorithm. It helps let people. Helps people want to come on Mormon Stories when they see that we have a large subscription base and subscribing notifies you when new episodes come out. So for all those reasons, please hit the subscribe button. Please follow us and you can do the same on Facebook. And we just appreciate everyone who supports Mormon Stories to make this all possible, and everyone in the staff and the board that make it possible as well. So be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all for part two of our interview. With Liz Lambson. Thanks, everybody.

Freshman Year at BYU and Early Relationships

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 1724

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part two of my interview with Liz Lambson. I already gave an introduction, and we just spent two and a half really good hours with Liz. If you have not watched the first part yet, please pause. Go back to the first. But Liz Lampson's story is amazing for those who follow the arts in Utah and in Salt Lake City. Liz is a bassist. Is that the way to pronounce it? She has performed with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and the choir at Temple Square. She performs with Ballet, Ballet West Orchestra.

Liz Lambson [00:00:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] But she's also a painter, and she painted beautiful painting of Martin Luther King Jr. For the Black Lives Matter exhibit here in Salt Lake City. That is. It's shown at the Capitol, Right?

Liz Lambson [00:00:49] Well, actually, that one's at my house. But are you thinking of the Black Lives Matter mural? City Hall? Yes, that's a little different.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Okay. Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:00:57] But, yeah, I do some art there. I also painted a mural for the Black Student Union at Salt Lake Community College. So if you go to the Multicultural center at the. Not the campus. The Redwood Campus. Is that what you call it? Yeah. Go to the multicultural office there. And there's a giant mural of lots of beautiful black faces there.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] And she's got a new song that we'll be releasing on this episode as well. So. So much stuff. But basically, part we talked about, Liz sort of like converting to Mormonism as a teenager in Colorado. She talked about being of kind of biracial father of African American descent and a mother of Korean origin. So growing up biracial in a very white area of Colorado Springs.

Liz Lambson [00:01:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] And then a really sad part of part one that you want to go back and watch is that her. Her mother leaves the family when she's 10 and I guess goes back to South Korea, we assume. Yeah. And what that was like to kind of lose your mom when you're 10 and being raised by a single dad. And Mormonism fit right in. So we talked about how she met some Mormon friends in her middle school and high school, and Mormonism seemed to fit perfectly with who she wanted to be. And even though her dad wouldn't let her get baptized till she was at least an adult, if he ever gave permission. We'll see. Because so far in the story, she hasn't been baptized, but she definitely is what we would call a dry Mormon all through high school. And she even wrote an article about that in the new era that we can link to in the show notes. So when we left off, she had lots of opportunities for academic or music scholarships. And she ended up applying to several places, but getting a scholarship to BYU as a bassist. And so that's where we left off. Is. Is she is leaving home. You're leaving home, Liz, and you're going to Provo. And we kind of likened it to Galinda going to Emerald City to meet the wizard. Right.

Liz Lambson [00:03:14] Land of promise.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Yeah. And I should just say you, it's, it's the same day, but you've changed outfits.

Liz Lambson [00:03:21] I have.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] And as an artist, can you explain to us you're the first person to ever have costume changes?

Liz Lambson [00:03:26] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] For more ME stories. So talk about that.

Liz Lambson [00:03:30] Well, I think this is also inspired by. Recently I've been doing a little bit of film acting. I got picked up by an agency last year with McCarty Talent. And I find myself considering wardrobe more, more than I ever have. You know, you go to the film set, they give you specific things to wear. Very concerned about color, image, how you read on camera. So for this I wanted to find something fun to wear.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Maybe talk about last episode.

Liz Lambson [00:04:04] Cause you actually. Well, I just couldn't decide what to wear. That's probably where to start. Like I had like several options and was like, I just can't decide. So I was with a friend and we were like, you know what? All of these things are kind of thematic and would work for different sections of your story. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:04:24] In part one, I was just wearing like a 90s windbreaker. Very common look for the. From the 90s, just a zipper windbreaker. But it had like just all the, all the great colors. Kind of an ivory base with blue and purple watercolor texture and then golden seashells over it. And then I had a gold choker to complete the 90s look as I grew up in the 90s.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Perfect.

Liz Lambson [00:04:58] So tell us about this creation today or. Well, this afternoon for part two as we take off for our journey to byu. I am wearing a almost cougar blue corset, kind of a cobalt blue, very tightly fitting corset on top of a rather conservative light pastel yellow floral button up blouse. And to me, this represents what we'll talk about in this part two, which is sort of diving into or discovering my nature as a sexual being in a very constricting environment. So we've got this corset that is both extremely constricting, but also highlights, you know, boobs, which are fine. Boobs are great. And then we've got this blouse though that I could just easily just button right up and wear to church.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:02] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:06:03] Also, you know, I was showing this outfit to my sister, who's very fashion. She. She's very fashionable as well as my husband's sister, who's a, A fashion designer as well. And, and the question was, do we wear the corset under the shirt or over the shirt? And we had one vote in either way. But my sister was saying, well, when you wear over the shirt, it almost looks like, like cosplay. Like, it's almost like too much. But I think that, that the idea of cosplay, which is it's the practice of dressing up as a character from a movie or a book or a video game, works perfectly for this segment because this is me going to BYU and trying hardcore to be a real Mormon character, while A real Mormon. But I think it was a character. I don't know if it ever was the right costume for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] And honestly, that really came out in part one when you talked about falling in love with Stan, which is a made up name, but it's a Mormon boy that you fell in love with.

Liz Lambson [00:07:13] Yeah, and I kind of followed him

John Dehlin [00:07:15] to the pyu and you were just. Your identity almost was shaped around trying to be the woman, the Mormon woman that Stan would want to marry.

Liz Lambson [00:07:27] Yeah, right. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] So that carries. That carries to byu, definitely. Okay, so you. Did you, did you drive, did you pack up and drive off to Provo from. I guess it's not a super long drive.

Liz Lambson [00:07:40] Yeah, just eight hours through the canyon. And my dad drove me and dropped me off at Hinkley Hall.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] Ooh, Gilaman Hall.

Liz Lambson [00:07:48] Yeah, Gilaman Halls. Hinkley hall was the building, one of the units at Helaman Halls. And oh my gosh, it was like he was dropping me off at like the sleepover birthday party of my dreams, where every single night was like a sleepover with my Mormon friends. Like, and I could go to church every week and just like do the thing, do. Be fully immersed in this culture that I was, you know, fanatically interested in.

John Dehlin [00:08:21] The dorms are fun, right? The BYU dorms.

Liz Lambson [00:08:24] Oh, man, those cinder block white walls, like trying to stick posters to them with like the tacky stuff and oh, like you could just go like, how many girls can you fit in one hall? And we're all like super enthusiastic about our favorite hymns and like shade shirts under our sleeve, like layering the downs. Yes. And, and oh, at the time, like the hair people were really doing the little like puffing your hair up at the top kind of, you know, like there's. What is that? There was like an invention that somebody made where you put a little comb in. Well, I don't know if it was super original, but like a bump, it. Do you remember that? The bump, it's where it like pushes up the hair and. Yeah, it was a whole. It was wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] You were in heaven, right?

Liz Lambson [00:09:14] I was, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] And what's cool, you weren't baptized yet.

Liz Lambson [00:09:17] I wasn't baptized yet. And this, this was, this was important because like I was saying through high school, I had this magical experience pretending to be Mormon or trying to be Mormon. And I think in my heart I accepted by the end of high school that I could identify as Mormon based on how I was living. But I was saying before that I still, in high school, was able to enjoy it more fully because I was missing out on things that can be pretty intense, which is temple patriarchal blessings and all the commitments that come when you're actually baptized. And a member, like worthiness.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] Worthiness and everything.

Liz Lambson [00:09:59] Yes, the worthiness stuff. So my freshman year, I got to enjoy the entire year as a 17 year old again. I had skipped a grade, so I was younger than everybody. So I'm at BYU as a minor, which also kind of will come into play in a upcoming story.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] Now I have to ask. Oh, you're a minor.

Liz Lambson [00:10:19] I was a minor.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Oh. So, okay. But you would have had to have someone sign your ecclesiastical endorsement.

Liz Lambson [00:10:27] Yes. So I did have, I, I think just random bishop in Colorado Springs. Whatever ward I was in the boundaries for, I think did that.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] Got it.

Liz Lambson [00:10:36] I mean, I'm trying to remember the differences between when you're applying as a non member. As a member, but you still had

John Dehlin [00:10:42] to sign the honor code.

Liz Lambson [00:10:43] Yeah, I'm pretty sure I did that with whichever bishop was in my area.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] He's looking at shops. He's like, your baptism.

Liz Lambson [00:10:52] Well, and I was such a shoo in for byu, like a young woman of color. They, they need to spice up their percentages. Yeah. Like, I mean, that alone, I think would have gotten me in. But then I was graduated in the top 10 in my class, had a super high GPA. So I got both music scholarships.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:14] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:11:14] And then I had the music. So I got both an academic scholarship and a music scholarship. I was just like golden child. And I felt it like I knew, like I was someone special at byu. I knew I was a little bit different. And I've always thrived on that. I mean, you can see by what I'm wearing. Like, I, I do like to be different and that sometimes that's, that works in my favor and sometimes it works against me. But. But my whole freshman year, I was. I got to be special because I was. I was the dry Mormon in the ward. And people were always asking me how I ended up at BYU when I wasn't baptized, when I wasn't a member. So I was always able to share my conversion story with people and they were just so impressed by how, how I was living the standards as a non member and how passionate I was about the religion. And. Yeah, I. I think. I think I may have even gotten a calling as something as a non member, somebody in some thing in the Relief Society.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] That's awesome.

Liz Lambson [00:12:26] But it was magical. I mean, BYU is such a unique place. And we talked about, you know, I watched singles ward with my friends in high school and was like, what? But then once I was there in the bubble, I was able to start, like, picking up on those inside jokes and understanding the quirkiness and appreciating it. The academics are super rigorous. I was up for the challenge. I studied a ton. I was doing the honors program.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] So you did. I mean, I've heard that the music program. I dated a girl who played viola at byu and it's almost like a conservatory.

Liz Lambson [00:13:07] Like, it's, it's very high level. Yeah. And yet there's the expectation to practice three hours a day, at least for the string performance majors. I think the piano performance majors had to do four, but. Yeah. And then you would get like half a credit for a class that would consume a lot of time. It was definitely challenging, but again, like, I was perfectionist to. It just was like the. An environment that worked for me initially. Initially it was hard because I was used to being like the best bass player in the state of Colorado in my age range, you know, with the all state stuff. And then going to the music school and realizing, like, I'm not as good as I think I am. I have a lot to learn. But that's the point. You go there so that you can get better at what you do. Met a lot of really interesting people. Where should we go?

John Dehlin [00:14:16] So you're 17. You're a freshman now. Oftentimes freshmen women are viewed as. As proposal meet. But why, you know, wife prospects.

Liz Lambson [00:14:28] Oh, shall we talk about dating at byu?

John Dehlin [00:14:30] Do you want to talk about that?

Liz Lambson [00:14:30] Yeah. My introduction to.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] I mean, you dated a little bit in high school, but just a little bit.

Liz Lambson [00:14:35] Just like, I never dated. I went on like, singular dates and the Mormon instruction to do, like, group dates. I only went on like, a few, really, like, probably five dates when I was in high School and I told you about like three of them.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] Like you. I don't even know if you, if you talked about even getting kissed in high school.

Liz Lambson [00:14:55] I never. Yeah, I went to byu. Never been kissed. I can tell you about my first kiss. It's pretty great.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:00] And, and to be clear, you're. You said you were 17.

Liz Lambson [00:15:03] I was, yeah. Yeah. I will let me tell you about my, my first kiss of byu because it was, it was epic. So there was a bass player return missionary who came back.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] Oh, wait, I'm sorry, I have to ask. Where was Stan, your first?

Liz Lambson [00:15:22] Stan is on his mission. He's on his second year of his mission.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] And he had said, don't, don't write me.

Liz Lambson [00:15:27] Yeah, he's still. But I was doing my best to send very cute but modest pictures of myself to him with my letters. I remember I looked. My cutest picture that I sent him. I was. It was at a St. Patrick's Day parade. I was wearing green. I had like shamrock antenna and pigtails. And I was standing, holding the little reins on a. Like a real llama. This is me and a llama looking so cute. Like, how can you turn down like a girl with a fuzzy alpaca?

John Dehlin [00:16:03] Yeah, it's hard, you know.

Liz Lambson [00:16:05] So I think you nailed that.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:07] I think you nailed that.

Liz Lambson [00:16:09] So, yeah, I was sending him cute pictures of myself and long letters and telling him I was at BYU now. And he would write back and I would wait. I would like. I had another friend, I think she was writing a missionary too. And we would like go to the Hinkley hall or the Huleman Halls, the Canon center, the Canon center mail room. And we'd go there together, like shaking with anticipation, like, is there going to be a letter in our mailbox today? And the days that a letter arrived from the missionary, we were over the moon, you know, read the letter 10 times, put it under your pillow, cherish it right back. The pen pal thing, I mean, I miss that. Handwritten letters, it's a rarity now, but at the time it was still what you did. It wasn't emailing and missionaries didn't have email or social media. So we would do the old fashioned letter writing. And it was very romantic. So I was still in my mind saving myself for Stan, but finding that people were interested me. A few people were interested in me, but a few, like I did. I did notice that I was not going as on as many dates as my.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] The white girls, basically. Right? Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:17:31] You know, we'll just say it. We'll just Say it. Yeah, like, it's so true. Because. Yeah, there's like. Especially when they're the returned missionaries or RMs. Can I say RM? Well, people know what I'm saying. When the RMs come back, they have a vision of what the next step is. They know what they're looking for. And if you don't match the vision, it can be a little jarring. But there was this bass player who came back from his mission, and we had a theory class together, and he sat next to me, and I was like, oh, I play the bass, too. So we had this in common. And that has always worked in my favor being a bassist. It's kind of cool. And so he was like, oh, man. There's, like, this cute girl who's a bass player, too. And he asked me on a date, and we went to his apartment and we watched the Three Amigos. And then when he. Not romantic, but he was walking me back to the dorm. And so he's like, 21. You know, he was older. I was just like, wow, I'm getting attention from this older guy. And we passed by one of the buildings that had the pools in it. And so it's nighttime, it's dark.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] And there's the Richard's building, the RB

Liz Lambson [00:18:53] maybe, probably wherever the pools are. And so there was a vent on the side of that building where the steam from the pool was coming out. And it was a really cold night. And so it created this cloud, like, this white, puffy cloud. It was like. And we were like, shall we go into the cloud? So we walk up the little stairs into the cloud. And it was really like when you're on an airplane and you're flying through the clouds, and, like, that's all you see is the cloud around you. And, I mean, it was beautiful. And we were both like, just like, this is. If there's any moment to ever kiss someone, that was it.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] It almost sounds cinematic.

Liz Lambson [00:19:40] It was. I was gonna say, and epic.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:42] I feel like epic was such a good verse.

Liz Lambson [00:19:44] It was epic. And so that was my first kiss. And it was very, like, juicy and amazing and better than what I ever expected. I. You know, like, people will. I think I'd even done in high school. The people say, like, practice kissing on your hand, you know, but the real thing was really something.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:08] That's beautiful. We're happy for your first kiss story.

Liz Lambson [00:20:11] It was great.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:12] It's not always that way.

Liz Lambson [00:20:13] Yeah. In terms of, like, the quality and the quantity on the first go. It was wonderful. And he was really Sweet, very cute. Also kind of like sandy blonde. He actually looked a lot like Stan, now that I think about it. They were about the same height, the same color hair, kind of blue eyes, same features. Yeah. And then he took me to, like, one of those natural hot springs the next day with another friend and lots more kissing, and it was wonderful. And then. But then, like, within a few days, he, like, super cooled off to me. Like, I remember going to BYU devotional with him. He'd go to the devotional and I was sitting next to him and I, like, asked if I could hold his hand, and I did, but it was just like, limp, you know, and he was just suddenly so not. I was like, what happened? And I learned this term at BYU called nycmo Non Committal make out. So here I was. This was my very first kiss. And to me that meant, like, we're going steady, you're an item, you don't kiss. Mormons don't kiss each other unless they're, like, serious. Or so I thought. But at byu, this was not the case. And I learned that this NCMO phenomenon was a thing that just because a boy at BYU kissed you didn't mean he wanted to marry you or even date you seriously. Yeah, right. I was, I was. I felt so, like, taken advantage of and upset because, again, it's my very first kiss and it meant nothing to him while it meant the world to me. I'd never done that with anybody. But it just occurred to me just recently that, like, this dude got back from his mission and he was in that mindset to find a wife. That's what you do. I mean, they're 21, but, you know, they've gotten the Melchizedek priesthood, they've done their mission, they've been endowed. The next step is to get married. And, like, I think he probably just realized, like, not only is this girl a freshman, she's 17. Like, I wasn't even an adult, I was still a minor, and I was not marriage material. So looking back, it totally makes sense that he would like, like, realize, like, this is not wise, this is not smart. That was just kind of a. Just a. An impulsive thing to do. And he quickly moved on. And I was heartbroken, I guess. Lightly heartbroken. But in the meantime, I also went. There were two other guys that I kind of was crushing on who lived in Gilaman Halls, and I would later find out, or both of them would come out as gay in the future. And. But I didn't know that at the time. So I went on dates with both of these guys, I don't remember how they came about. They were just really casual. One was like an 80s dance. 80s themed dance. One was another dance at the Canon center and really fun. And these two friends, I'd become very close with and kind of hear their stories. After they went on their missions and came back, we learned a lot more about each other. But that was a time when I was sort of forming really close friendships with people who would influence my worldview in the future.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] So would you have learned in high school what the church's stance was on lgbt, on being gay or lesbian or bisexual? And would you have had sort of bought into that when you were dating or befriending these gay BYU students?

Liz Lambson [00:24:49] Yeah, I mean, and I didn't. I. I was so. At the time, just really oblivious. Like, it just. So it's like I knew I knew about those doctrines, but I didn't. It's like at the time, I didn't. I did know people who were gay, but I didn't know that I knew people who were gay. You know what I mean? Because none of them were out. They were so. They were young. And it was a time, especially at byu, when it was not safe to be gay in any way.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] So what year were you a freshman?

Liz Lambson [00:25:23] 2003. Okay, 2003. Yeah. So we'll hear more about them. Do you want to hear about my baptism? Eventually?

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:25:39] Yeah. Let's just, like, get this. Get this train moving down the track. Freshman year was great. I did really well in school. Bass playing was going great. And in the orchestra program, there are several orchestras. There's like the chamber orchestra, the BYU Philharmonic, I think the symphony orchestra, several music groups, but the chamber orchestra was the top tier, and it was a smaller group, and that's the group that got to tour. And so the chamber orchestra was scheduled to tour Europe. And I didn't think I had a chance of making it into the bass section because there were only three spots, but. And then also the tour would be happening across, or my 18th birthday would fall during that tour. And people knew that I wanted to get baptized. And one afternoon, my orchestra conductor stopped me and he said, hey, I just want to make sure you audition for the chamber orchestra. I know that your birthday falls during that tour, but if you make it, we could arrange for you to be baptized in Europe. And it could be just a really cool experience. But I just want to make sure that that doesn't keep you, or if that's a consideration, that won't keep you from auditioning. And so I auditioned for the group, and I got a spot. I got one of the three spots for the touring orchestra as a freshman.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Whoa.

Liz Lambson [00:27:17] Yeah, it was great. I was really proud of that moment and that opportunity. So I went on this tour. And orchestra tours are such an incredible opportunity to build really close relationships with people. I mean, orchestra relationships. You know, the band Nerds. In high school, we had a group, and then. And then I had my youth symphony group that also toured Europe and Australia. So this was my second time traveling through Europe. So I was familiar. We went to some new places. Well, some new countries, but there's so much to see. There's so many places to go and so much to see. It was. I mean, I wish I could go back tomorrow and continue the tour, but. So tour was amazing. And we scheduled my baptism in Switzerland at the chapel on the Swiss Temple grounds. So at the Swiss Temple, there's a little chapel right next to it with a baptismal font in it. And we went ahead and scheduled that.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] So, really quick, I have to ask. Did your dad know? Did you warn him ahead of time?

Liz Lambson [00:28:38] No. I mean, we just. He always knew that I would get baptized at 18, so I think I let him know that it would be happening while I was away. But, you know, we didn't really.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] It's inevitable.

Liz Lambson [00:28:52] It was. And it was such a taboo subject. Again, like, I came from a family where we didn't really talk about our feelings. Conversations were very surface level. I probably slipped it into a very short, casual conversation that it would be happening, that I was going to do it. And he probably was like, okay. Like, you know, no big surprise. We all knew that that was my plan all along. And we got to Switzerland and we stayed in the. In the temple. You call it an albergo, the. The housing that they provide for travelers traveling to the temple. Or you can stay in, like, kind of a church hostel. Does that sound familiar? Like a concept that you're familiar with. So we got to stay, like, in the church's little. Not. Not quite a hotel, maybe sort of a hostel, but sleeping quarters for visitors to the temple. And I woke up early the morning in my baptism. Just. I couldn't believe it. I'd finally made it to my baptism day. And I had had to. I had to take the missionary discussions at byu, but during my freshman year to be eligible, it's like I still had to jump through the hoops. Like, they still had to teach me the lessons so they could check those boxes and. And I had A baptismal interview before I left for Europe. And then when we arrived in Switzerland, I had another baptismal interview when we arrived with the missionaries. Do that with missionaries. And I thought, I am so prepared for this. I'm so ready. Like, I have worked so hard to repent of all my sins leading up to this day. I am at peak level personal perfection, cleanliness. I mean, I was so good. I was such a good girl. It's like I didn't even need to be baptized. I just needed to do the. Like, do the formality. And I just needed a record number. I wanted a record number, and I wanted a membership. I wanted to be like a Mormon on paper. And I was ready. I was ready. And I had asked two of the bass players to do. Do the honors. So one of the bass players baptized me, and another of the bass players confirmed me. And I remember the one who confirmed me, he. I don't think he was quote, unquote. Quote unquote worthy to do it. He was. Was he married? I think he was already married. And this is the weirdest thing. I was invited to his interview with his bishop. I don't know how this happened, but I was with him when they were interviewing him to see if he was worthy to confirm me. I don't know why I would have been there, but it was like sort of a. Like, I will be confirming her at her baptism. We have to jump through this hoop. But I remember noticing at the time that he wasn't wearing garments, but he was married. And that confused me. And he was kind of a rebel. And later, later down the road, I think he went inactive. But I was like. I always wondered, like, if he confirms me and he's not worthy, will I still get the Holy Ghost? Like, that's a genuine concern you. But I still wanted him to do it, and I trusted that. Whether or not. If I had any doubts, it would be okay. But, I mean, the baptism itself was the most magical day. And to that point in my life, it was the best day of my life to have all those people around me who were so excited for me, who loved me, who recognized the importance of what I was doing. I was surrounded by just this big, big. A whole orchestra full of people cheering me on. And, yeah, went in the warm water, did the deed, came out feeling like an angel. My orchestra conductor gave a talk. My former roommate, a violist, gave a talk, and I was confirmed. And it was awesome. One of the interesting things part of the schedule of the day was that we'd do my baptism. And then people who were temple worthy could go in and do a temple session or baptisms. They arranged that. And even though I'd been baptized, I was yet again left out. So everyone, wait.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] Couldn't you do baptisms for the dead?

Liz Lambson [00:33:59] No, you have to wait like a year.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Oh.

Liz Lambson [00:34:02] Or something. You have to. You. At the time, it had been explained to me that you have to be a member for a year before you're eligible to do. To go to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] Oh.

Liz Lambson [00:34:12] I think that they made. Maybe made a little. Some exceptions, but, yeah, I wasn't allowed to go right away. It. It's just there's a time, it's kind of like. At least then it was like if you got married civilly, you had to. Didn't you have to wait a year to go to the temple? It was very similar. Like the same kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:34:33] So, yeah, I didn't get to go, but I just sat outside the temple and I wrote in my journal. And yeah, I actually have a picture. I will cover up my friend's face. But there's me.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] That's you.

Liz Lambson [00:34:55] It's your baptism with my friend. Yeah, that's me and my friend. I got to wear a really cool, like, 70s. A 70s jumpsuit because they had, like, vintage stuff there. So it was. It was a very classy 70s jumpsuit, which I appreciated as a lover of vintage things. So. Beautiful day. And following that, we went. The next stop on our tour was Italy. We went to Rome. And this is actually when I meet my future husband. We were in Rome and our bus got lost, and the tour leaders got in touch with the mission president. And the man who would become my husband down the road was serving his mission in Rome and was the AP or the assistant to the president at the time. So, excuse me. The mission president sent him and his companion to get on the bus or find us and help us find our hotel. So little did I know, my future husband steps on the bus and is like, hello, everyone. He has this big personality. You know, I'm here to save the day, basically. And he helps find a hotel and everyone, you know, young girls, whether or not a young man is a missionary, they flirt, you know. So the girls were like, well, I don't know if this was a. It was just a social thing, but everyone who was talking with those elders were like, you need to meet Liz. She just got baptized a couple days ago, and she's got this great story. She's just such a great example of, like, a true convert. And you should meet her.

John Dehlin [00:37:01] Did they ever call you Golden? Golden?

Liz Lambson [00:37:04] Yes, actually.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:37:06] Yeah, I have heard that. So I. In the hotel lobby, I remember meeting the elders and chatting for a little bit, and that was that. I didn't know that this was someone that I would see again at all. So we'll come back to that.

John Dehlin [00:37:29] Come back to Sam.

Liz Lambson [00:37:30] We'll come back to Sam.

John Dehlin [00:37:31] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:37:31] Yeah. And then after my, after that tour, my dad picked me up from the airport, he drove out to Utah, and he picked me up from the airport and he drove me down to Cedar City. I had gotten my first job, like real job, playing bass at the Utah Shakespeare Festival in the pit orchestra and in an onstage band for the musical Forever Plaid. So I was in two shows that summer. It was intense. Lots of shows every week. But my dad drove me down there to get me settled in my first ever non dorm apartment with roommates who were not BYU students arranged by the Shakespeare festival. And on the drive down, my dad was like, so I wanted to tell you something. And I was like, what's, what's up? And he's like, so I got married. I was like, like, say that again. Like, come again. You got married? And I was like, well, when. When did you get married? And he was like, we just did a little thing in October. He had been married almost my entire freshman year and I didn't find out about it until the next summer. And like, I was. I didn't know how to feel about that. You know, when something that big happens in a, well, close family member. Right. Shouldn't you consider a parent, one of your closest family members? And then to not be informed that he had gotten married just like blew my mind. And so I was process processing that information and went to Cedar City and it was a great, great summer. Lots of music. A really great step for me as I was beginning to move towards professional playing. It's the first time I got paid that much to play the bass regularly. It was awesome. And then we're entering sophomore year and Stan came back from his mission. Should we go into that a little bit?

John Dehlin [00:40:11] Sure.

Liz Lambson [00:40:17] Well, I was overjoyed when Stan came back and all my letters worked, my cute pictures with llamas worked, and he actually asked me out. I don't even remember what our first date was, but. But things just like clicked and we were a couple and this was my first like. So he turned out to be my first boyfriend.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Whoa.

Liz Lambson [00:40:45] Yeah, I didn't expect that. Right. I had my first kiss and I'd went on a few dates But Stan actually turned out to be my first boyfriend. Like, it was a dream come true.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:58] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:41:00] I couldn't believe it. But at the same time, I could, because I had envisioned it, like, so strongly. You know, there's, like, the manifestation of what you believe will happen when you. When you have a vision that is so strong and so real, like, you're confident that it will happen. So I, like. And I did everything I could to, you know, try to be appealing to him. And finally, finally, we were dating. And I thought, so at this point, I'm 18. And I was like, well, I'm baptized now and we're dating, so the next. We're ready to get married, we can just. This is it. This is what I've been working towards. And he was back from his mission, so he was also in that mindset of, like, getting married. And so we were. Had only dated for a couple months, and we went back. We drove back to Colorado Springs together for the holidays. I think it was Chris. No. Okay. I think we went back for. It was either Thanksgiving or Christmas. I think it was Christmas time. And I went to his house and was observing again this beautiful practice of this big family having family scripture study together. Just loved it. They were what I envisioned for my future. And Sam was sitting next to me and he, like, in cursive, wrote my name on my back, but with his last name. Ooh. And I was like, what? Did that just happen? What? And he just kind of, like, smiled at me. And we didn't. We were just sitting around with his family, so we didn't talk. But then we went ice skating the next day or something. And he took me up to one of the jewelry stores at the Chapel Hills Mall with the ice. And we looked at. Just for fun. Just, like, looked at rings, you know? And then he was saying things like, maybe I'll ask your dad, like, permission, you know.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Wow, it's happening.

Liz Lambson [00:43:23] Yeah. I thought, like, this is. Wow. Like, it's. It is happening. That's what I thought. But he ended up not asking my dad. I think he was intimidated, and I think it was, okay, we gotta rewind just a little bit. But it was while I was dating Stan that I had my first, like, horrible interview with a bishop. Like, my first, like, terrible experience. And I had been raised. Sorry. Well, I had been raised, yeah, to be, like, an honest, upstanding person and also to be perfect, you know? Like, there was. In growing up, there was, like, corporal punishment. If I did something, it wasn't even wrong, but just slightly less than perfect, you know, So I was under the impression that any. That any kind of any minor sin needed to be confessed. That now that I'd been baptized, I could no longer sort out my sins with just me and God. But I needed a bishop to excuse my sins. There was now a third person in the picture. It wasn't just me being accountable to myself and God. There's somebody else now who is my mediator. Is that a word that they would use to describe bishops? Like, there's now another mediator or kind of like Jesus? So there's like another Jesus figure to throw into the mix. And so I had worked so hard to, like, rid myself of the habit of masturbation. And then I. I did it once and I felt so, so, so guilty. And I was. I was hearkening back to a moment on the orchestra tour where just days after my baptism, we were at a reception and I had accidentally taken a drink of, like, a lemon liqueur, thinking it was lemonade and realizing what I'd done. I, like, admitted it to the people around me. And then when we got back on the bus, there, like, a whole debate opened up saying, like, did Liz commit a sin? She just was baptized. Did this drink of alcohol, was that a sin? Had she already, like, ruined the effects of what she'd just done? Like, was this the first sin in need of repentance? There was a whole debate going on, and I was like, oh, gosh, I guess I'm a little rebel and moved on. But anyway, I have my first slip up with a sexual sin and I make an appointment with my bishop. And I went in and he was an older guy from one of the rural towns outside of Provo who had come in to serve his calling. And I told him what I had done. And I was ready to just go through the process, whatever needed I needed to do to just be, you know, go through the repentance process. I was ready, but I had no idea how. What was about to be said to me. And he, he said that, that masturbation was the same. It was. Masturbation is. How is having sex with yourself, which is the same severity as adultery, as if you were having sex with another person.

Worthiness Struggles, Confession, and Heartbreak

John Dehlin [00:47:13] It wasn't your spouse, right?

Liz Lambson [00:47:16] Yeah, I did not realize the severity of my sin. And he said, and adultery is second to murder. And he, oh, at this point, I had a temple recommend, even though it hadn't been a year. I got one in Cedar City. I also skipped out that I also got my patriarchal blessing when I Was in Cedar City. I kind of fast tracked those things. So, you know, here I'm sitting with this bishop. He's telling me that I've committed, pretty much committed adultery. He's labeled me an adulteress.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] And next to murder, yes.

Liz Lambson [00:47:53] And he asks for my temple recommend, and he took it away. And he instructed me to not take the sacrament for a while and gave me some tips, like, about how to behave in the shower. And I don't think he realized that, like, the shower is a pretty common place for guys to do that, but not necessarily girls. So he's, like, lecturing me about showering and laptops and good grief. And then he prescribed me to read the Miracle of Forgiveness, which I think has a bit in it about, like, if you masturbate, that might make you gay. Does that sound like a. Rings a bell? Like, if you do this, it might turn you into a gay person. So he hands that to me, and I was overwhelmed. Just overwhelmed and devastated. Like, I had worked so hard to change my life so that I'd be eligible to be baptized. And all of a sudden, I ruined everything. Because he had also said something like, when you repeat a sin that you've done before, it's as if you never repented at all. So it was like, all the sins that I had committed prior to my baptism, all of it was like, back. It's like I just felt like a horrible person and like, I'd ruined everything.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] It undid the cleansing of your baptism.

Liz Lambson [00:49:21] Yes, everything. And I couldn't even take the sacrament. And that's what's supposed to be, like, your baptism over again, like, every week, right? So, like, I wasn't even worthy to be baptized by the sacrament the following Sunday. Like, all of it. All of it was, like, taken away from me so fast. And I left that appointment just devastated. And I was so upset, I just. I began sobbing. And I collapsed in the grass on a hillside, south side of campus. There's a steep hill. Everything's always so beautifully manicured. So I just, like, fell to the ground in this soft grass and just wept, like. Just dripping tears into the grass, watering the grass with my tears, and was just crumpled on the ground. And someone passed by, like, a young male student. And he thought I'd been injured or, like, assaulted or something. And he came to see if I was okay, if I was hurt. And I said I was okay. And I sat up and kind of wiped my face off and said I was okay. And I got up and I walked home. But fast forwarding to when Stan took me to look at rings. I had to admit to him at this time that I wasn't temple worthy. I hadn't gotten my temple recommend back, so I couldn't go to the. I couldn't do a temple marriage with him yet. Not yet, but I'll get there. I'll get it back. I'll get it back. I promise. And it was so embarrassing to admit that to him. So just embarrassing.

John Dehlin [00:50:59] Did he confess back to you that maybe he had done that, too?

Liz Lambson [00:51:04] I don't know if he'd ever. Well, no. Well, I didn't say why. I never said why. I would never say the M word. I said it, like, once during that. That interview, but I. I still have trouble saying the word. Just saying the word is embarrassing.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] So you just told Stan that you were unworthy?

Liz Lambson [00:51:22] Yeah, I didn't say why.

John Dehlin [00:51:23] Could have. He could have used his imagination and thought up all sorts of things.

Liz Lambson [00:51:28] Yeah, I. I didn't explain why. It was just sort of this vague, like, I. I'll get. I'll get it back in his mind.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] It could have been you had sex with some guy, maybe. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:51:38] But, I mean, he was the first person I dated, so. And he knew that. So it was a little bit confusing, like. Okay, so we were home for Christmas for a couple weeks, I guess. And it's during that break that things started going downhill. And I remember. We went on a walk on this trail that goes along the Air Force Academy. This long, long trail. Trying to remember what it's called. But there's this dirt trail that years later, I would run that trail, training for a marathon. But we went on a walk on this by the river that goes through the Air Force base, and there are train tracks, and it's where I would go as a kid. It was this magical place. My dad and my. When my mom was still around, it was one of the few happy family memories that I have. We all took our bikes in the big Chevy van, and we'd bike that trail. And I remember balancing on the train tracks, trying to walk on the train tracks, not fall down, balancing. And my mom being there and us all laughing as we're falling on and off the train tracks, trying to balance. And just one of the very few happy memories I had. And there were crawfish in. In the creek. And we'd catch crawfish sometimes or just look at them, pretend to fish for them and not catch them. So I was with Stan in one of, like, the happiest places of my childhood memory. Like a place that I loved. And we sat down on a bench by the train tracks by the bridge, and we're just watching the creek. And he was like. He was saying, like, I don't think we should kiss as much. And I was like, what do you. What do you mean? And then he started telling me, like, those rules about, like, passionate kissing, and you're not supposed to do that until you're married, and maybe we should take a step back. And I didn't understand. And the conversation went on, and then he admitted that he had had a dream about another girl and he was starting to feel like maybe he needed to date around. And I was. I fell to pieces again. Started sobbing. Like, so many tears. I just cried and cried. It's like the dream that I had, what I had changed my life for. He was breaking up with me. That's what was happening. And then we were supposed to go to, like, a New Year's Eve dance, singles ward dance together. And he, like, didn't come to pick me up. He said he got distracted playing video games and forgot. And he didn't pick me up for the dance. I just sat by the door, waiting and waiting. And then I called, and his mom was, like. Answered the phone and was like, oh, he's. He's downstairs. I'll look at him. And he was just playing a game.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] I mean, two things that come into my mind would be either he was bothered by your admission of unworthiness in some way.

Liz Lambson [00:54:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] Or racial stuff.

Liz Lambson [00:55:03] Yeah. Can I.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] And I'm just. I don't mean to inject that.

Liz Lambson [00:55:06] I don't know. But. Well, so here's the thing. Like, his parents, for Christmas gave him a book that I'm assuming was from, like, Deseret book or something, but it was about, like, choosing the right spouse. So they knew that we were dating, and they're giving him a book about choosing the right person. And, like, why would you give that to someone if they were already dating the right person? You know?

John Dehlin [00:55:34] And something that are not never Mormon listeners or viewers won't know, is that to this day in 2023, it's still part of modern Mormon curriculum that interracial marriage is discouraged. And so definitely back then, and I'm guessing I would be willing to bet 100 bucks that this book would mention what we already discussed about, which is that it's possible to marry within your own race.

Liz Lambson [00:56:05] Honestly, possibly. I have no idea. It was in the book. Yeah, but he got it for Christmas, and maybe he looked at that before this. This breakup before this breakup. And I. And I went home and I just cried a lot. I just cried so much all the time. I was just. But this was one of those. The most intense cries of my life that lasted the longest. I just went to my room and I listened to this song that reminded me of my mom, but now is reminding me of him too. And it's Colin Hay. I just don't think I'll ever get over you. From the Garden State soundtrack, which I watched edited. Cause it's rated R, but the soundtrack's great.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] But it's more rejection, I'm guessing.

Liz Lambson [00:56:54] Yeah. Or just abandonment. I always had. Yeah. Fear of abandonment. That becomes a theme for sure. And so I lost him. Like the. This person I really, like, changed my life for. And, yeah, it was devastating. Around the same time, I think I managed to eek through the repentance process with that same bishop. Got back in good standing. Was able to go do baptisms with my friends. Was feeling. Feeling like things were coming back together. And I really, like, loved the temple. I loved going. It was just like a haven, you know, again, that sanctuary. And as I was healing from that breakup, it was a lovely place to go and to feel loved and to feel the spirit and to feel clean. And so I was back in a good place.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Now, is that just baptisms for the dead or indow.

Liz Lambson [00:58:06] Just baptisms for the dead.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:07] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:58:08] Because I was. Yeah, I was. I was not planning to go on a mission or. And then I. I stayed. That's. Let's see. Yeah. The summer between my sophomore and junior year, I stayed on campus. I signed up for spring and summer classes because again, I had mentioned to you that, like, once I left home, I did not have any plans of getting going back, Especially now that my dad was remarried. He had another life, and I wasn't. I felt that I wasn't welcome home. There were times when I asked if I could come visit, and he said no because his wife had something going on or wasn't. Wasn't up for it or something. So I also, like, home wasn't home anymore anyway. Like, I literally was not invited several times. It wasn't like other friends could just, like, drop in without even announcement, you know, and like, oh, hey, can I come for Sunday dinner? And a lot of these kids are from Utah or. And all of a sudden it's like this. This woman. This other woman. It was her house. Now it's her place.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:30] It's like another. Another source of abandonment, too, in a way. In a way, yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:59:36] And she was. She was. You'll see that little teaser. There's a third wife down the road. And all of them were kind of the same. They were very similar. They were all, when he married them, the same age as my mom when she left. Oh, like, it was like a. It's like he was definitely looking for something specific, but. So they were very young, like mid-30s. And we'll get to this down the road. But the third wife was exactly my age, and I'm the youngest kid, so that was really trippy.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:20] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:00:22] And so anyway, that was happening at home, so I stayed at BYU for the summer, signed up for summer classes, and then I met the next. Who would become the next boyfriend. Another someone in the music school and who was the sweetest, nicest, most gentle, wonderful person that he was such a gem. And we just, like, we had music in common, and he was fascinated by me. And here's another funny thing. The only guys who I only had a couple serious boyfriends, or if you count my husband, but all of those had some experience living in a foreign country with people who were genetically sort of like me. So this next guy that I dated served his mission in Japan, and so he really appreciated, like, my Asian. My Asian ness. He, like, could wrap his mind around that, you know. So, yeah, like, Stan had served his mission with the brown people, the Marshallese and the Polynesians, and was able to find them, like, exotic and beautiful. And then the second guy had also served in Asia and appreciated my Asian ness. And, I mean, I'm sure he wouldn't see it that way. I don't know if any of either of them would admit to that, but it's something that I thought about, you know, it's. You can't, like. I mean, you could go up to someone and be like, there's something about this that seems a little racist, but that's not really something you go and say to people. I have experiences all the time where I'm treated in a way that seems kind of racist. But I don't just, like, walk up to the person and say, like, hey, you're being racist. It's just something you kind of sit on and have to swallow.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] My guess is, and I don't want to speak for you, but being exoticized is not necessarily complimentary or flattering because maybe it's objectifying. I don't know.

Liz Lambson [01:02:47] I mean, I was so desperate for anyone to like me in any way. I don't know if I even thought about that as a bad thing, because I like And I, and I do think this now that like it's really important to recognize people's cultural backgrounds. Like whitewashing or pretending that everyone is like you, I think is non productive. So I think it is important to recognize, acknowledge and express interest in people's cultural backgrounds. Because how can you respect their culture or appreciate it if you don't even know anything about it, you know? And like, how do we get to know people really if we don't ask about where they're from and what their traditions are like and even what language is their, is their first language or their main language, you know? So I just always interpreted people's interest in like where are you from? Or what's your ethnicity as like them actually acknowledging that I was something other than them. So I usually tend to appreciate it, I guess hoping that it's like a genuine interest in who I am. But at the same time I have definitely been tokenized or stereotyped because of what I look like. So there's that too. But going back to this other musician, we think things just go so fast when you're dating at byu. Like we were only dating a couple months and then just like with Stan, it's like, what kind of ring might you be interested in? And can I ask your dad for your hand when we go, excuse me, to your house for Thanksgiving? Holidays came around again and he was going to come to Colorado Springs with me, but our whole relationship was going up in flames because we were more intimate than we should have been. So like, it's like, here we go again. I find myself in a bishop's office confessing every little thing, thinking that that's what I'm supposed to do, that that's the repentance process, that I can't, that I can't resolve my own sins between just me and God. I have to confess, like what I see in the movies with confessional booths where you go and you tell the priests what you did and then they tell you to do so many Hail Marys or whatever and then you can move on. But it wasn't as simple as like doing a few Hail Marys with the Mormon repentance process. So I had told this bishop that he and I had had some intimate encounter with each other. And he told me, like, if this, if you ever get close to this happening again, I want you to call me. I don't care if it's day or night, I don't care if it's the middle of the night. You call me so that I can Talk you out of this. It's almost like, you know, it's. It's almost like I was saying that I was about to jump off a cliff. Like, if you find yourself near the edge, don't do it. You call me and I will talk you out of it. And I took him seriously.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Well, if you believe. If you believe that it's next to murder and severity, and I'm sure that Bishop did, then, yeah, it's pretty much close to. To someone suicide, right?

Liz Lambson [01:06:35] Yeah. Like giving away your virtue or like the death of your virtue, it's almost worse. It's like people would rather die than give up their virtue.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] You know, there's a saying in Mormonism. Better dead than unclean.

Liz Lambson [01:06:50] Yeah, I. I felt that. That. That's the. The weight of that. So then there was this. Oh, it was this great night that I had with him because we. We went to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas dinner. I was very active with the orchestra at Temple Square. And the Christmas dinner at the Grand America was the fanciest I can imagine.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] Big time.

Liz Lambson [01:07:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:17] And so festive. Such a festive event.

Liz Lambson [01:07:19] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] And Grand America is the nicest hotel in Utah, I think.

Liz Lambson [01:07:23] And the Prophet was there.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:07:25] The Prophets would come to the dinner.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:07:27] It's like I would be in the room with the Prophet.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] And would it be Gordon Hinckley at the time or.

Liz Lambson [01:07:33] I remember going with Monson there.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] Okay.

Liz Lambson [01:07:35] I remember Monson. So I'm not sure what year this was. But I do remember, though, playing in an orchestra concert with Gordon B. Hinckley just, like, feet away from me, and then going and telling my bass professor, like, I think my music career has reached its peak. Like, I just played for the profit. Is there anything else I can do in my life that would. Would match that in terms of musical performance? And he's, like, rolling his eyes a little bit, but I truly felt that not recognizing that, like, Vernon maybe wasn't really into it. I don't know. But I felt like that was like I just played. One of my friends just went to Rome and sang for the Pope.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Yeah, that.

Liz Lambson [01:08:16] Like, that kind of feeling like I just sang.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:08:19] Or I just performed for the Prophet. So anyway, I had taken this guy on a date to the dinner at the Grand America fans. I wore my grandmother's green satin floral dress from the 1940s. Beautiful gown. And it was sleeveless. It was like a little strappy thing, so I had to wear a. A cardigan over it, of course, but it was still beautiful. I got this like, glittering teal cardigan that I could tie in a bow. And it was just like the most. It was a great night, a great event. And we came back and we were just so in love with each other. And things got a little intense, you know, and I, I. My bishop's voice was in my mind. It was probably like two or three in the morning. And I actually called him in the middle of the night to have him talk me off the cliff. Talk me, Talk me back.

John Dehlin [01:09:23] Like, while your boyfriend's in the other room.

Liz Lambson [01:09:25] Oh, no, we were like. I think we were in my car.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] He was with you?

Liz Lambson [01:09:30] Yeah, yeah. He's just waiting there. And I'm like, I gotta make a call.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] So. You're getting all hot.

Liz Lambson [01:09:36] You're like, one second.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:37] Just.

John Dehlin [01:09:38] Things are getting steamy. You're in the car. Yeah, hold on, boy.

Liz Lambson [01:09:42] Yeah. So I get out of the car and I'm. I'm like, leaning against the car, like, calling at 2 or 3 in the morning. And his wife answers the phone, the bishop's wife. And she's like, who is this? And I'm like, it's Liz. And your husband told me to call him, like, anytime. Like, and I just need to talk to him. And so he gets on the phone, he's like, hello? Like, you know, like, waking up in the middle of the night. Who is this? It's Liz. And he told me to call you if I was in trouble. And so he's like, what's going on? Tell me what's happening. And he talks. He's like, okay, you just need to go inside your house. You need to go home. Stop what you're doing. Go home. Just go home. You know? And then he's like, I need. We need to talk. You need to come to my house.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] What?

Liz Lambson [01:10:33] Yeah, this was very serious, so I had to go to his house, like, either the next day or that weekend. No, I think it was the weekend. So it was probably, like, the next day. Like, the bishop has me go to his house, sitting in his house, me, a young woman, 19, just alone with him. His wife is probably somewhere. And then he's just asking me all about every little detail of where I was touched and where I touched him and what all the little juicy details. And I'm just, like, so mortified and trying to explain what happened. And he's like, well, was there, like, intercourse? And I'm like, no, no, it didn't get that far. And he's like, if this kind of behavior keeps up, we might have to. What's The. What's the next level of severity of.

John Dehlin [01:11:29] There's. There's disfellowship meant and then excommunication.

Liz Lambson [01:11:32] Yeah. Or he was just talking about some, like, next level, like a disciplinary council. Council. Yeah, or something. It was getting. It was. It was really scary. Yeah, super scary. But there. But then I started noticing something kind of twisted, which is that my boyfriend also met with his bishop, and there were, like, no consequences. Like, nothing. Like. And I was like, my life was being, like, blown up, and I was, like, feeling like an adulteress and a whore and just feeling like the worst person. The worst person. And then. And I was like, what is this, like, double standard? Like, do these guys just get to, like, masturbate in the shower every day and then have somebody, like, shrug it off? But then, like, when the girls do anything, it's like, we're sluts, you know? Like, we're. We've. We've completely, like, ruined ourselves. It was twisted.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] And I've heard that a lot of Mormon stories. Like a, you know, a girl dates a BYU athlete. He. He gets to keep playing as a BYU athlete, and the girl gets kicked out of byu. This crazy double standard.

Liz Lambson [01:13:00] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:01] Or. Or a couple has an affair, they're married, they have an affair, she gets excommunicated, and he has no discipline. Yeah, it's hard to believe that that's even possible.

Liz Lambson [01:13:14] Yeah, it's a thing. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [01:13:17] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:13:18] So it's like all this was happening. I was being put on a little train cart on its way to hell. At the same time, my boyfriend at the time was like, I. I want to propose. And like, the. The. It was so mentally jarring. I was like, how are we? How are you? How can you envision us getting married in the temple when everything that you're doing with me is making me untemple worthy? Like, the paradox, the grinding in my head of these contrary things. Like, on one hand, my bishop's telling me I'm gonna go to hell if I don't change. And on the other hand, my boyfriend's telling me he wants to get married in the temple, like, in a couple months. And I was like, this is not computing. Not computing. And the. The anxiety that was building up in me just trying to process this was impossibly confusing and to the point that it was making me, like, physically and mentally ill. So I remember being at the. The cougar eat the Cougareet at the. The Wilkinson center, eating, like, a salad with him, and he brought it up again, like, so, like, when do you think I could propose? And like, I nearly vomited on the table. I was like, I can't. I don't. I can't. I didn't know how to swallow it. It's like being ripped in half. The bishop and the doctrines are telling me that I'm headed in this direction, away from the temple. And then this guy that I love and care for, who I trust as well, is saying that I'm heading this way towards the temple. And it didn't make any sense to me, and it was causing me just so much anxiety. And so I ended up just breaking up with him. And I loved him so much. But. And the bishop would be like, you're doing these things together because you love each other so much, so you just need to get married. And then you can do all these things, like, just, just, just get things in line. We'll get your temple recommend back. Go, go get married in the temple. And then you can just, like, do whatever you want, you know, Then. Then it's okay. Then it's okay. So even my bishop's like, you guys are supposed. You just need to get married. Just get married. And I was like, but it doesn't. Not computing. I don't know how to. I don't know how to get from here, from your office to there based on what you're telling me worthily. Yeah, I don't know how to do it. And just the anxiety just. I couldn't take it anymore. And I just. I just. I mean, I didn't want to break up. I just told him that I wasn't ready to get married. And I was 19. I still had years. I was like, I still have a couple years of school. I just don't think I'm ready. And he was heartbroken, and we both cried together and.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] But you feel like you loved him?

Liz Lambson [01:16:40] Oh, yeah, I. Of course I did. He was so sweet. Just the sweetest person. And like, I look back on that and it's like, man, if we could have removed all the, all the purity culture and the sexual shame and the. All this, like, kind of slut shaming business, like that relationship. And my first kind of really intimate experiences with someone could have been beautiful. Like, I could have.

John Dehlin [01:17:14] Just healthy.

Liz Lambson [01:17:16] Yeah, right. Everything was so sweet and, like, done from a place of love. Like, we were gentle with each other and cared for each other, and it was. It was so, so, like, pure. I would say if I could remove it from the context of where I was and what it meant in. Within the Bounds of the religion. Like it really could have been a wonderful thing.

John Dehlin [01:17:50] Yeah. It's seems like too often the Mormon church traumatizes early sexual experiences that.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] Scars people sometimes for the rest of their lives.

Liz Lambson [01:18:00] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:18:01] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:18:02] Yeah. So, yeah, then following that breakup, things got pretty dark because I felt unredeemable again. I lost someone that I loved because I was a bad person or wasn't good enough for something and I started, I mean this was. I was, I began to get into the deepest depression or one of the deepest depression I experienced up into that point. And I started like self harming. And anytime I did something bad, like masturbating or doing something, I began like. Can I say this on the podcast?

John Dehlin [01:18:52] Yeah, we'll just maybe give people a trigger warning and say we're going to talk about self harm and if you need to practice self care or manage who's viewing or listening, do so. But yeah, this is important, so please.

Liz Lambson [01:19:06] Yeah, I mean, I just started this sort of self harming practice and like with small, small little cuts, but it, it started turning into like what became tally marks on my wrist. Like the more things I did wrong, I was just sort of like trying to psych myself up to like, like get used to the feeling of what it would be like to take my life. I just needed to work up to it. Like work up to like the, the pain tolerance, I guess. So like the whatever repentance processes I was being guided through with my bishops were just not resolving my guilt and were like I wasn't getting better. If anything, I was just getting worse and more convinced that I was a terrible person. And I was so sad. I remember when I broke up with this boyfriend as that was falling apart. I remember I was working at the BYU instrument office at the time, working on stringed instruments. And I sat in the back room, just the storage room with shelves and shelves of violins and viola cases and clarinets and just sitting on the floor like crying. Lots of crying. So much crying. But I had this vision. I'm an artist and I have visions. That's another thing that I love about Joseph Smith and I identify with him so strongly. Like I like him, consider myself a visionary. I have visions that seem so real to me. And I had a vision while I was sitting there and I saw the children that I would have had with this guy standing in front of me and they were saying goodbye to me because I would never have them. And it was heartbreaking. And there was a, a girl, an older girl and then a younger boy and Those were the spirit children that I was going to have with him. And. And they went away. It was so sad. So I just thought, like, life is over.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:31] I was.

Liz Lambson [01:21:32] I was so bummed out. But then, interestingly enough, I would have these periods when I was like, super, super high and happy and like, everything is great. And I'd be like. Or I just have these periods. And I. And I'd go to my therapist. I was seeing a therapist at the Wilkinson center who became like kind of a father figure to me. And I'm still in touch with him, send him my Christmas card. I would seek his counsel for many, many years, even after byu. But I would go to him and be like, I'm cured. I feel great. Things are going great. And he'd be like, okay, cool. And then I'd come back like a while later and be like, super down in the dumps. And I mean, a lot of. I think for a lot of people, their psychiatric ailments begin to present themselves around that age, around 19, 20, 21. And I was beginning to experience my first manic episodes. And I had a really powerful one that lasted for several months where I. I saw a friend perform live, record an album live with their band. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to learn how to play the guitar and I'm going to write music and I'm going to do this. I'm going to. I'm going to be a rock star. And I started learning to play the guitar, and I wouldn't go anywhere without it. I practiced. I had. I still practiced my bass. I still tried to keep up with my schooling, but I wasn't doing very well. I actually started failing my classes. And it was so unusual for me because I was always the academic queen. I was the top of my class. I was always the best. And something was happening. Like, I was like, I'm having a nervous breakdown. What's happening to me? I'm beginning to fail my classes. And I would. And then, like, the guitar was like, soothing me. And I wouldn't go anywhere without it. And I started writing songs. I started filling up this notebook with songs, this composition, music composition book. And within six months, I had a book full of songs. I picked out 10. And I was like, I'm recording my first album. And a friend, he liked my music. He was in the media music program byu, and he's like, I'll record it for you. And we went to his grandparents cabin at Sundance or in Wildwood by Sundance. And over the course of Several weeks, recorded my first album of original music. And all of that came together in just a few months. And like, the. The level of energy that I was putting into it was something I'd never experienced before in that. In that. To that extreme. And it was really exciting. At the same time, I was failing my classes and was self harming a lot. And it was just kind of like getting out there, like, just feeling like I was losing grips with things. And at the time, I went on another international orchestra tour, this time to the uk, to Scotland and England. And it was during this guitar period. And I. I snuck my guitar on the plane and my conductor was, like, upset with me. Like, no. My music professors were like, liz, stay focused. You're a string bass performance major. Just, just stay focused. Like this songwriting, guitar stuff, like, it's not. It's not really. That's not your degree. It's not where you're here, you know? So, like, taking my guitar on this orchestra tour was like this, this like, rebellious thing, I guess. And he, like, really frowned upon the fact that I took it. But I would play everywhere I went. And I was playing my songs for our homestay families. And I wrote a song about England called To England. This whole album is on streaming platforms. It's called Liz Rhodes Red and Yellow. And this was my breakup album. There are a lot of songs about this boyfriend and there's a song about England. And it's. I mean, as you'll see from seeing me play on this program, I'm really like, not the best singer. I'm not the best guitarist. But it is something that I'm passionate about. And if anything, I think I'm a strong songwriter. And this was the time in my life that I really started developing that skill.

John Dehlin [01:26:42] Did you say Red and Yellow?

Liz Lambson [01:26:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:26:44] Okay.

Liz Lambson [01:26:44] R E D A N D Y E L L. I have to ask,

John Dehlin [01:26:48] was it a bass guitar or was

Liz Lambson [01:26:50] it like a. Oh, no, I taught how to. I learned how to play the six

John Dehlin [01:26:53] string guitar because, you know, Sting and Paul McCartney, you know, they were bass players. Yeah, you can be a rock star and play the bass guitar.

Liz Lambson [01:27:01] I know, but. But it's hard to write a song if you can't play chord progressions. Yeah, like, that's, that's when you're playing just like a singular bass note. It's not as full. Like, I wanted to be able to perform by myself. I wanted to be able to, like, play the. At least a complete song. Because when you're a bass player, you play somebody else's song with them. But, I mean, it is possible. Like Esperantz.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] That would be a band, basically.

Liz Lambson [01:27:30] Yeah. I mean, Esperanza Spalding. People say I look like her. She's. She's half black and she's a bassist and she does jazz and she sings and plays. She rocks it. It's. I actually think it's much harder. I think it's much harder to play the bass and sing at the same time than it is to play the guitar and sing. I think it's totally different.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] I have to mention Giddy Lee of Rush, too. Anyway, I digress.

Liz Lambson [01:27:53] Yeah. Like, I just.

John Dehlin [01:27:54] I mean, these guys are world famous, right?

Liz Lambson [01:27:56] So beyond my level. Beyond my level. But for me, at least, then it's like, if I want to write a song and sing it, it was easier to play the guitar. And, you know, no offense to love of my life, the string bass, but it's not as portable as a guitar. So, yeah, I could take my guitar anywhere. I could take it to class, I could take it on tour, I could take it wherever I was. And other people, I started seeing that, like, other people played guitar too, like, in addition to their instruments. And I began, like, realizing, like. Like, I. Well, I think I always knew this, but, like, I'm passionate about a lot of things, and in addition to that, I'm pretty good at a lot of things. Like, I mean, I've learned how to knit recently.

John Dehlin [01:28:47] Oh, it's beautiful.

Liz Lambson [01:28:48] It's amazing on this sweater. It's an amazing sweater. So I learned, you know, like. And there are people who, like, do this kind of thing and are like, I am a knitter. That is my identity. I knit. And, like. But I'm like, well, I knit, but I also enjoy doing so many things.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] But was part of your point that maybe that. That, you know, wanting to become a rock star and, you know, writing an album was part of maybe a manic episode?

Liz Lambson [01:29:24] Oh, yeah, Kind of. Yes, yes. You know, as I went through these sort of, like, phases with my therapist where I'd be like, I'm so happy. Everything's great. Life is good. I don't need to see you anymore. This has been great. Thanks for your help. Bye. And then, you know, some matter of time later, I'd be back being like, I want to die. Life is over. Like, I have now.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] Now, I don't know if this is in any way applicable, but when I was a therapist getting my psychology PhD at Utah State, I would get these return missionaries who would. Sometimes they were married, but they would try to go as long as they could without masturbating. So they'd be fine. They'd be fine. They'd be fine. But then they just couldn't hold out any longer. And then they'd, quote, mess up or fall off the wagon.

Liz Lambson [01:30:19] Yeah.

Bipolar Diagnosis and Mental Health at BYU

John Dehlin [01:30:20] Was there any cycling, do you think, related to your worthiness issues or. I don't want to inject that.

Liz Lambson [01:30:29] I think there's some truth to that

John Dehlin [01:30:32] because Would you try for a long time and then it would build up and build up and build up.

Liz Lambson [01:30:37] Yeah. And then I'd have some kind of relapse and feel like a horrible person. I think that was part of the cycle. But there was clearly something going on in terms of, like, creative energy.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:48] Yeah. That's what I'm hearing.

Liz Lambson [01:30:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:50] For the guitar and an album to emerge.

John Dehlin [01:30:54] Because bipolar doesn't always have to be pathologized. I mean, it is a mental illness. But there's kind of a recent movement to kind of say, you know, what if there are good things about kind of those extreme.

Liz Lambson [01:31:09] It's really powerful.

John Dehlin [01:31:10] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:31:11] So that was the first of what would become many kind of cycles. Is it a cycle?

John Dehlin [01:31:20] Creative bursts.

Liz Lambson [01:31:23] Yeah, they're. I mean, I mentioned that I wrote a fiction novel a few months ago. I wrote like a 100,000 word novel in five weeks.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:36] Wow.

Liz Lambson [01:31:36] And that's the length of Ender's Game or Harry Potter 3. It's like all I did and thought about, like, in a. Like I was in another plant. I was on another planet for that time.

John Dehlin [01:31:52] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:31:52] And it was extremely productive. And I'm at an. I'm at an age, though. I mean, there's so much that's happened between then and now that's helped me to understand myself and manage it. And I'm medicated and I. I know how to harness the energy in a more constructive way. And I had one psychiatrist who described it to me, like, I'd be like, dude, I'm starting to take off into. I have this idea, like, grandiose thinking, big ideas. That's. That's what usually sends me off into space. And so one of them was creating. This was in 2016, 17, creating the Lizzie, like my alter ego, Lizzy Luna. That was one of those times where, like, I created a person, like another version of myself. I created the children's musician Lizzy Luna. I wrote a bajillion. Not a bajillion, but I wrote a bunch of songs, I recorded an album. I created a program called Yoga Storytime and songs. I built a website I started marketing myself to community organizations as if I was the shiz. And people started hiring me to do this program that I just came up with, you know, and during that time, you know, and people. My poor husband, you know, he watches me go through these times and he gets nervous and. And he's good at, like, kind of being a reality check. But going back to what this one psychiatrist said to me, this was during the Lizzy Luna creation period. And he said, like, well, is it positive and productive or is it negative and destructive? And I've used that as sort of a guide or a gauge to like, monitor my behavior when I'm in these zones because I can kind of lose touch with reality a little bit. But.

John Dehlin [01:34:07] But we really should provide a link to your Instagram.

Liz Lambson [01:34:10] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:11] Because people, you know, like, none of us, maybe a couple of our listeners will ever reach, you know, the level of mastery of, let's just say, an instrument or any skill to be on the level of playing with the orchestra at Temple Square or with Ballet West. That's. That's. Most of us will never even do one thing. But then I've seen your painting. Like, your painting of Martin Luther King Jr. Is stunning. And you've painted the mar. The. The murals, you know, and I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot of, you know, and your music, you know, in other formats. So, I mean, there's a re. This. Creative bursts is a real important part of you. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:34:55] Yeah. People ask me how I accomplish the things that I do, but I just will say that it comes at a cost.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:02] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:35:03] They don't see that side of it.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:05] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:35:06] But it definitely, you know, this part of me has put a strain on my relationships. It's made it parenting extra challenging for me. It has been life threatening at times. So, yeah, it's. But what you see, though, what I sh. What I put on, put up for show is kind of the good.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:36] The good stuff that is so, so important.

Liz Lambson [01:35:42] Yeah. But I mean, I know a lot of creative people who have. Deal with mental illness and I don't know, sometimes I just wonder if they go hand in hand. I mean, I think that at least for me, like, part of my creative power is the ability to access both really, like, light, light, light, bright brightness, bright places, and then also the darkness. And it's that contrast that creates some pretty, like a stunning result. It's the ability to go places in your mind that are completely new, which can be scary, but you don't always know where those roads in your Mind are going to lead. But there's something about being a creative person where you are pulled down that road. You have to know where it goes. You just follow it. Sometimes it. Sometimes it takes you to the moon or the sun or into a black abyss or into a fire.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:04] So this time at byu? Yeah. Was this kind of the first. Going back to kind of what you were describing and this guitar and your first album, kind of riding. I think you described it as your first manic.

Liz Lambson [01:37:18] Yeah, like, kind of very documentable.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:21] Yes.

Liz Lambson [01:37:22] Like the biggest thing. And just the fact that, like, it was so disruptive to my. My. My life. Well, especially my academics and. And so I started taking some medications. It was my first experience with med. And I don't know. I remember telling my dad that I'd started taking a medication for bipolar, and he was so mad and he's like, who is telling you that you are bipolar? And he drove out to Utah to meet my doctors, and he thought it was all just a scam, like a lie, a big lie. But I don't know. I was never able to, like, convince him that my mental health issues were, like, very serious. But as it turns out, he had a lot of mental health issues too. And as we'll see as the story continues, things don't go well because he doesn't get his mental health issues addressed and believes that they're not real or that they're not an issue. It's not a thing.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:42] Can I ask around that time, too? You know, it's one thing to experience, you know, the creating an album, learning a new instrument, the kind of the other side of that cycle. Do you remember what you felt Just on the low. Right. The low to that and how that felt, and then also how you felt about the diagnosis at the time. You want to say anything about that? I was.

Liz Lambson [01:39:16] I think I've all. I've always been a bit of a hypochondriac. Like, when I was a kid, I saw how when people were sick or had a broken arm or even if they got glasses, that they got, like, attention for being ill. And I just was. I just like, wanted people's compassion. And I saw that, like, if you're sick, people bring you soup. If you're in the hospital, people bring you flowers. If you have glasses, people are curious about the quality of your eyesight. If you break an arm, people want to sign your cast. That kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] It's reinforcing a little bit, maybe.

Liz Lambson [01:40:00] Yeah. I was pretty ecstatic, actually, to have a diagnosis that explained the way that I was feeling, because it made sense. I feel that way a little bit about. We might get into this later, but, like, sort of understanding my own gender identity, like, finding a word that works is very comforting. When you find a word or a diagnosis that explains how you felt for so long, you just didn't have a word for it, maybe you feel a

John Dehlin [01:40:35] little bit less alone.

Liz Lambson [01:40:37] Yeah. You feel like. Yeah. Like there's something very. Oh, I don't know. It's just like. It's like you. It's like you know someone that you've known for a really long time, but you never knew their name. Like, you didn't know the person's name.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:56] It's like the power of language.

Liz Lambson [01:40:58] Language to, like, labels, I think, can be very dangerous. Or they can be. They can be used against you. Especially with mental health diagnoses. There's so much. What's the word? Like, they get a bad rap. What's the word for that? There's a word.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] Stigma.

Liz Lambson [01:41:22] Yeah, stigma. There we go. Thank you. So, yeah, if you associate your personhood with a diagnosis of some kind, there can be a lot of shame around that. Same with a label about your sexuality, your gender identity, like, and they can be used against you, or people can say you're just, like, using a label for whatever reason. But I. I really do think there are a lot of benefits to identifying things.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:50] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:41:51] For what they are. For naming things. I mean, we don't. Like, I didn't have my children and just, like, not give them names.

John Dehlin [01:41:59] Right. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:42:00] I have. I've identified them with a label, and it's very helpful. It's very useful to have names for things. That's a pen. That's a legal paddle. That's a person named John.

John Dehlin [01:42:12] And this is a manic name.

Liz Lambson [01:42:14] Marty.

John Dehlin [01:42:14] And this is a manic episode

Liz Lambson [01:42:17] of Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] No, no, no. I mean, just in your life.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:22] Oh. Oh, yeah. Going back to being able to have language to understand your experience.

Liz Lambson [01:42:25] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I prefer to refer to them as, like, intense, intense creative periods. But when I am at the doctor and we're discussing my medication levels, we just call them what they are in that. What's appropriate in that sphere. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:42] Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] There's tons of great art and creativity and inventions and innovations we wouldn't have without these creative bursts. It's part of the human experience.

Liz Lambson [01:42:53] Yeah, but you were asking about the other side of it.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:56] Yeah. And I'm curious how you. What language you use to describe that, then.

Liz Lambson [01:43:00] The lows.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:01] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:43:03] Just Depression and hell, I mean, you talk about bringing up that embarrassing M word, masturbation. Like I. I would feel like again, like I'm a very visionary, like visual. Like I envision things and I would feel like I was literally like being raped by Satan and. But like enjoying it. And that made me even like a sicker person. And then that would just lead to down the self harm road. And my. And I just. I know I wrote like a letter at the time. I had a document on my goodbye letter on my. Sorry, I shouldn't laugh on my laptop. And then I've got to introduce my friend.

John Dehlin [01:43:58] Wait, you're saying it's kind of a suicide?

Liz Lambson [01:44:01] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I thought about it all the time. I really wanted to. I'm so tormented. I really wanted to. And my doctor would be like, well, the medications you have aren't going to do the trick. And. But okay, so this is about the.

John Dehlin [01:44:17] Can I ask a quick question? Oh, well, you. You want to talk about a friend. Is this changing subjects or.

Liz Lambson [01:44:22] It's sort of.

John Dehlin [01:44:23] Really. Okay. Because I have a question about the church and your bipolar symptoms. But tell me when the right time is to ask.

Liz Lambson [01:44:31] No, ask me.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] Okay. Can we put a pin in whatever you're about to say? It'll come back.

Liz Lambson [01:44:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:35] I don't want to lose it. Okay.

Liz Lambson [01:44:36] What was it?

John Dehlin [01:44:37] Because mental illness happens inside and outside of Mormonism. Right. And you are. There's probably degrees to it. You know, you mentioned yourself, your dad has had mental illness. And I wouldn't be surprised if maybe your mom.

Liz Lambson [01:44:51] My mom, Totally. If I look back.

John Dehlin [01:44:53] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:44:54] I wouldn't be surprised if she were bipolar. When you look at her, her religious fanaticism, how high that made her.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:02] Have you learned the term scrupulosity yet? Is that something you've bumped into? So there's a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, or ocd, that's religious ocd and it's called scrupulosity.

Liz Lambson [01:45:12] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] Like some people with OCD hoard or some people obsessively wash their hands or clean or organize or worry about safety or ruminate.

Liz Lambson [01:45:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] One form of OCD is to be hyper religious and hyper worried about religious worthiness and purity.

Liz Lambson [01:45:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] And that's a thing. And it's called scrupulosity.

Liz Lambson [01:45:32] Scrupulosity. And yeah, that sounds. Again, I love collecting diagnoses such as these, but that does seem to describe me well. And I will say that in recent appointments with my psychiatrist, we have talked about OCD a bit and how the way that I think and invasive thoughts. And so that. That totally seems like it could be a thing.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] There are a few Mormon stories episodes where we. I, I studied scrupulosity for my master's.

Liz Lambson [01:46:04] Ah.

John Dehlin [01:46:04] So I, Yeah, that's why I know about it.

Liz Lambson [01:46:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:07] Well, what I was, what I was going to ask is it would be really easy for those who are like mad at the church or frustrated the church or processing the church to say, look, the church sex shamed you, purity culture shamed you, and so you developed bipolar. But it's probably not that simple because it could have been that regardless of whatever culture you ended up in, in your early 20s, it may have happened. It may, it may have emerged anyway. So how do you tease out, if you even need to, how much the church, the Mormon church is or isn't even responsible for it?

Liz Lambson [01:46:40] Here's what I have to say about that. People like this is. This is going to bring up this story because this example, because I think it plays well. I was with my 10 year old like a week ago or something. And earlier, months and months ago, my depression was in a bad state. I made the mistake of going off my medications for a while just to kind of see where I was at that. I don't recommend that. So my depression was really bad. And I was going, I was in my bed a lot. I was not leaving my bed or I was stuck in bed a lot. And my 10 year old, I told my 10 year old, like, I'm just, I'm struggling a little bit with my depression and that's why I'm this way right now. And then, okay, so then some time passes and he's like, mom, can you go downstairs with me? It was nighttime. Can you go downstairs with me? I need to get a drink. And I was like, I really don't want to get out of bed, but I do need to take my medication, so I'll go down with you. And he's like, what's your medication for? And I was like, well, it's for. They're like my happy pills. They help me with my depression. And he's like, are you depressed because you have us, because you have kids? And I said, no. Like, no, I'm not like, having children didn't give me depression. Sometimes the stress of parenting aggravates my depression, but it's not the cause at all. Like, I had these symptoms well before you were born. I had symptoms when I was a child. It's not you at all. Please don't blame you. And So I would say that about the bipolar as well. Like, we kind of skated over my childhood without talk of mental illness. But a little bit, though, you notice how much I was crying. Like, there was also, like, how well I was doing creatively, musically, with art, winning competitions, like, there. And you could even, like, with my religion, with my religious experiences, the high, the ecstasy, the visions of light that I was having during those times, like, these are all like, very, like, early symptoms. And then you look at, like, my mom leaving and how disruptive my childhood was, the violence present there, you know, So I would say that going into the church, BYU environment aggravated these things, but I do not at all think they were the source.

John Dehlin [01:49:29] Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. And I'm having your child ask you whether they're the reason for your depression must have been triggering for you, given that you wondered whether you were the reason why your mom left.

Liz Lambson [01:49:46] Oh, yeah, Maybe. Maybe a little bit of that.

John Dehlin [01:49:48] Where you think you don't want them to be carrying that.

Liz Lambson [01:49:53] Yeah, I, I mean, I, I don't know if that crossed my mind in that moment, but. But yeah, you, I, you don't want to think, you know, it's not, it's not his fault.

John Dehlin [01:50:04] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:50:05] But, you know, I think especially in the part three of this will get more into, like, postpartum depression, having more children than I can manage, especially given my mental health history. And it, and it, like I was saying to him, like, having a lot of kids has at times aggravated my, the state of my well being.

John Dehlin [01:50:32] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:50:34] But I will say, you know, we'll get to child rearing, but. Okay, so I had a conversation with my BYU therapist at this time because in one of my super happy periods, I was like, I think I want to go on a mission. I think that would be, like, a good experience for me. I think it'd be cool, you know, and he's like, liz, based on your mental health history, just in the time that I've known you, I do not think that that would be a wise idea. And so, And I think it's so interesting that the church is careful about sending people on missions who have mental health issues, knowing that missions are very strenuous, they're very demanding, they're physically strenuous, they're stressful, they're hard. And yet everyone is supposed to be a parent without any consideration of your mental health.

John Dehlin [01:51:36] Or married or married. Right. It's not just married or parenting. That's everybody. Right.

Liz Lambson [01:51:43] Like, yeah, like, encourage. As if that. And I'm sure I'll Say it again. But I have come to believe, especially after having five children and seeing what. What goes, what it takes, that having children is not for everyone. And I see. Yeah, you see children suffering and being abused by parents who are not in control or not handling it well. The stress of it. So anyway, just throwing that out there kind of preemptively. But it's not at all my children's fault. And I'm not necessarily the church. I know that people will probably hear me complain about how hard it is to have five kids and think, well, it was your decision to have them. Why did you have them if you didn't? But it's like, you don't know how hard it is until you do it, I think. And then we'll get into it. I ended up having twins. And that's a whole. That's a whole nother segment. But I just. Yeah. In terms of mental health considerations, like, yeah, that was. That was interesting for someone to tell me, like, no, Liz, you couldn't handle a mission. But then, like, jumping for joy when I get engaged.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:12] Such. Such a powerful point.

Liz Lambson [01:53:16] Like, being like, this is great.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:18] Yeah. And can I just say there's something really powerful when you were talking about your child, asking you directly about your depression and relating it back to them, because you didn't get that. And I just think that that's so powerful and key that you gave your child something meaning when your mom left. You tried to make meaning. You tried to. And when kids don't have the resources or on a level, get the input of a mature brain, hey, this is what's happening, right?

Liz Lambson [01:54:04] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:04] Then you. They make up stories like, you did.

Liz Lambson [01:54:07] You.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:07] You create a reason why. Explain. You interrupted that for your child. It was like, oh, oh, oh. Let. Let me. Actually, here is a situation that is a little bit larger that you may not see. And no, it's. It's actually not about you. And I. I just think that's a powerful point to be made.

Liz Lambson [01:54:25] I hope that he remembers that and doesn't. Doesn't blame himself for the way that I behave or am the way that I am. I mean, I had a friend who had a hysterectomy because she's dealt with so much depression and mental illness that she didn't want to pass those genetics on to any children. She didn't want to have children because she didn't feel like it was responsible to pass on those. The potent. Those mental health genes. And so that's definitely something that I did consider when having children. And. But I am watching them like a hawk in terms of watching for signs of just trying to provide any and all resources they need to just thrive. Hopefully. It's hard, but I. It's on my radar. I don't think it was on my parents radar.

John Dehlin [01:55:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:17] Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing.

Liz Lambson [01:55:18] Oh, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:21] And Liz, let me just say for. For today's episode, let's go ahead just for part two, let's end this. BYU ends.

Liz Lambson [01:55:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:55:29] And this may mean we do a part three and a part four.

Liz Lambson [01:55:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:55:32] Kind of marriage and kids and then deconstruction if you want.

Liz Lambson [01:55:36] That sounds great.

John Dehlin [01:55:37] Because I. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:55:39] Let's, let's. Yeah. I've got just a couple. Okay. So leading up to the end of byu, I'm telling you about when I'm starting to take medications. Right. For the first time. And at this time, one of those friends who I mentioned from my freshman year that I had gone on a date with and had a crush on had gone on his mission. And we're still very close. I met him at the airport on his layover. Is the one person at the airport at his layover to welcome him home from his mission at that place. And we wrote letters, his whole mission. Really good friend. And he came back from his mission and we. I was on tour with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir on a bus when he called me. And he was calling me. He was from. He was in, literally in a closet when he came out of the closet. And I was the first person that he told that he was gay.

Gay Friends, Loss by Suicide, and Faith Questions

John Dehlin [01:56:37] So this is one of those two gay friends you had as a freshman.

Liz Lambson [01:56:39] Yeah. And so he came out to me and I was honored and he. I loved him. And he, we. In the next several months, he and I talked so much about our struggles. He and I were taking our. Both of our doctors prescribed the same medications. We were talking about our side effects and how we were feeling and just kind of keeping tabs on each other. And because there are not a lot of people we could openly talk to about our mental health issues. And he didn't have people, especially at first, that he could talk about being gay. Although he did end up going to some support groups and various things. But he ended up taking his life just a few months later, like after coming out. And this happened while a couple other things were going on. I was still like really into playing music and was like doing little house concerts and open mic nights and opening for bands. And I got a call from some random musician, touring musician, inviting me to open for them when they were stopping in Provo on their tour. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm not available for that date. But I was able to attend this person's concert and met this person, this touring rock artist, and was, like, so, like, starstruck by this person. Anyway, we ended up spending a night together. I still managed to preserve my virginity by the. By a single thread, but despite him asking if we could go to a motel or go to my car or whatever, but we spent the whole night together. And it came like, I came up with him. He was like, like, you could come on tour, you know? And I'm like, I'm in school. And he's like, well, who cares? Why don't you just. If this is what you love, who cares? Just, you could just drop out of school. You could just, like, leave all of this and, and live this life. And I seriously considered it. I was already failing my classes, barely getting by. I got my doctor to write me a note so that I could keep my academic scholarship based. Because of my health issues. I took fewer credits. It ended up taking me five years to graduate, partially because I also started. Started double majoring with English because I also got into creative writing and wanted to do that too, because I like to do that too, and I like to do all the things. But there was a moment where I was like, this is the turning point. I think this is a great way to kind of end this episode. There was a. There was a point where I realized, like, I was, I, I. I was like, do I stay at BYU in this place that I was beginning to recognize was toxic? Do I stay and do this Mormon thing, or do I just leave the church and go be a touring musician and be a real artist and let all of the, all of the limitations go and be free to be myself? I think that's one of the first times I thought that way where, like, something is stifling me, and what if I actually did just walk away from school and church and just, like, do music? Just, like, do that and be free of it all, sort of like a escapism, running away. But here was someone who I was seeing doing it and saying, you could do this too. Who's stopping you? And I really thought about it, but I. My roommates were, like, praying over me. They knew the state I was in and how much meeting this touring musician, like, really shook me. And of course, I went to my bishop at the time and confessed my activity with this person because I was still in that Felt that obligation. I couldn't. I don't know. I just had to confess. I just couldn't not confess. So then I. And I moved around a lot. So then I had another bishop, this new bishop, and this bishop was different than the others. He was different. He didn't have pictures of Jesus in his house. He had, like, an. Like, a really modern, like, very chic house. And he was, like, actually a cool person. And he. He wrote me a letter, a really beautiful letter, kind of just assuring me, unlike the other bishops, that, like, I was actually a really good person. Like. And he hoped that I would stay, and he hoped that I wouldn't follow this musician who. He actually happened to know who that musician was.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] Oh.

Liz Lambson [02:02:20] So he kind of pieced it together. That was telling the story. But anyway, so I had this one encouraging bishop who's like. But then at the same time, a few months earlier, I had another bishop over the summer. I was in foreign language housing, Spanish housing, and this bishop there, I went to him and was like, I'm having a hard time here, and I'm struggling, and I don't. I just don't feel like I'm happy here. And he just frankly said, like, maybe BYU isn't the place for you. And I was like, but, but, but, but, but, but, but. You don't know what it took for me to get here. You don't know what led me here. Like, I sacrificed so much to come to byu, to be here, to do this thing, and it's. I'm not feeling good here. I'm not feeling happy here. You don't understand. And I. And I threw out, like, I have. I have depression. And he's like, oh, okay. But. But that moment when he was like, maybe BYU isn't the place for you.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:22] Yes. Did that land? Did it make it through?

Liz Lambson [02:03:27] Well, here's the thing. That line has stuck with me. And. And then it. It will come back to me in one of the future episodes where it's kind of the same voice saying, well, maybe the church isn't for you. Maybe you don't belong here. Maybe this isn't the right fit for you.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] Foreshadowing.

Liz Lambson [02:03:48] Yeah, yeah, it was exactly that. Just, you know, because BYU is a form, like a. Is a church institution. He was saying, like, well, if you don't like it here, why don't you just leave? And that's how I've felt recently as well. If you don't like it here, maybe you don't belong here. Maybe you should just go.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] Cliffhanger.

Liz Lambson [02:04:11] Mm.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] Now, I have at least two questions I want to make sure you can cover. Anything else you wanted to cover in this part two about byu. But I do have two questions. Should I jump in?

Liz Lambson [02:04:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:22] Okay. And then, Margi, if you've got anything. So the first is about your friend who. Your gay friend who died by suicide. You. I want to kind of jump back to that. And when he called you to come out to you, maybe you're one of the first people, or maybe the first person he came out to, I don't know.

Liz Lambson [02:04:42] He said. He said I was the first person he told and he was in a closet. Oh, poor guy.

John Dehlin [02:04:47] I mean, you must have been the only person that made him feel safe.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:53] What did he say was so hard for him? Can you describe what the conflict was for him? Of course. We've covered it hundreds of times on Mormon stories now. Yeah, yeah, but what did he convey to you was the conflict. He had just come off his mission, you know?

Liz Lambson [02:05:11] No, it was.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] What was he struggling with? What was the nature of his trouble?

Liz Lambson [02:05:17] I mean, he. He tried to date a girl after his mission, and it wasn't going super well for him. I mean, he was so faithful. He went on a mission.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:30] He.

Liz Lambson [02:05:30] He had. He was so faithful, you know, like, he believed all of this. He was a. Just a stalwart example, like, just a great example of a righteous Mormon young man. He was golden. Golden. And he was really. I think most. I think one of the things at the heart of his struggle was, like, how there wasn't. I mean, this is the way I'm phrasing it, but, like, was there room in the plan of salvation for him? Like how he really wanted kids and a family and a wife, but even trying to date one girl was not going well. And like, it's just like he had vision, envisioned his life looking a certain way, and was now facing the reality that this is not. He's not who he. He just wasn't who he was. Fundamentally did not work with where he was in terms of what church he was a part of, and he didn't know how to make it work.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:53] Work.

Liz Lambson [02:06:54] Like, it's just. I mean, the mental gymnastics are exhausting. And I. I will probably refer back to the idea of mental gymnastics, but when, as certain doctrines start becoming questionable or you start seeing things from a different perspective, then you start doing. You start getting into the mental gymnastics as a sport. And what I feel is like those mental gymnastics in the sphere of Mormonism, it's as if you're like an Olympic. You can get so good at them. You can get so good at these gymnastics. But then there's a point where you realize, like, wait a minute. The uneven bars, you know, where you're, like, jumping from, they're not at a standard width. They're further apart than they're supposed to be. This whole time, you're trying to make something make sense that's not quite right, or you go out, you've been practicing like crazy on the balance beam, and you just keep falling off. And then after a while, you realize, wait a second, the balance beam is tilted. Something's off. I have been trying so hard to get this right, and something is off. Or like. And then when you're with a partner, say you're gay and you're dating a woman, or you're. You're married and you're struggling or something like, that's like having a partner as. Like, as a trapeze artist, you're doing gymnastics with somebody else now. And then you're also finding, again, like, the ropes are too short. We can't quite reach it. We can't quite pull the act together. Something's off. And it's not the gymnast's fault. It's not the gymnast's fault. They're just in a circus arena or on a tilted balance beam or trying to hurl their bodies from a bar to a bar that aren't at a standard width. And you're finding that after a while, those mental gymnastics are just too exhausting. And if you're lucky. I don't know if it's luck, but sometimes people take a chance and walk out of the gym. They say, I'm done with the gymnastics.

John Dehlin [02:09:38] But your friend sounds like he wasn't able to do that.

Liz Lambson [02:09:41] Well, I think he walked out of the gym. Just a different door.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:47] Do you. I have one other question after this, but do you mind sharing what it was like when you found out he had died?

Liz Lambson [02:09:52] Oh, yeah. Yeah. I was just finishing up a class.

John Dehlin [02:09:58] And also how you processed it as a believing Mormon.

Liz Lambson [02:10:01] Oh, yeah. My orchestra conductor called me because my friend, he had. He was studying. He had a completely different degree, but he really loved music. He also. This, I think, is kind of fitting. He wanted. He told me when my freshman year, that he wanted to be a ballerina. A ballerina. He wanted to be a ballet dancer. And he had taken some ballet. And now I'm in the ballet world, and there are these beautiful gay male ballerinas or ballerino ballet dancers that I've Gotten to know. And it, like, it hurts so bad when I see them. And I think, man, that's. He could have. I mean, any and everything. I mean, I meet a gay couple with kids, and I'm like, he could have had that. He could have done that. I see these ballet dancers. He could have done that. Anyway, but I got a call from my.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:05] Oh.

Liz Lambson [02:11:05] So he had worked his way into the music school, or he was taking percussion lessons. He hadn't developed a specific instrument skill necessarily, but percussion was a way that he could get in. And he was so good right away. He ended up in the chamber orchestra, that top group, playing timpani, I think. And so we were suddenly in the music school together. He would come up and visit me at the instrument office. He got glasses. He started getting into fashion, which was really cool. He got glasses without lenses. He didn't need glasses, but he got glasses without lenses and came up to show them to me and see if they. If I thought they were cool. And I dyed his hair. He came over to my apartment. I dyed his hair in my sink. And it was that. That night when I was dyeing his hair, he started telling me that he was looking up ways to take his life. And I was like, I've been thinking about it myself, too. And so we were, like, commiserating with each other, talking about how much we wish we could do it or how much we wanted to do it, but he actually did it. And he was telling me about studying about this method that he was considering. And it's the method that he actually used, which is piping exhaust into his car. He, like, drove it up to, like, this viewpoint on Y Mountain and did that. So my orchestra conductor called me because at the time, we were actually in orchestra together, which was really cool. And I just, like, collapsed on the ground, and I was just stunned. And I got. And people were just, like, walking around me and past me, and no one asked me if I was okay. It just looked like I was sitting on the floor taking a call. And I got off the phone with my conductor, and then I called my friend's mom. I called his mom. And I think I had to call a couple times before I got through. I'm sure her phone was, like, ringing off the phone, the hook. And she answered, and she told me more details about what happened. And I was floored. And, like, literally, I was on the floor. I was floored. And I don't know, like, a lot of people were crying and mourning, but I've always had this feeling that, like, I get it, like, because I've wanted to do it myself so many times in my life. There's almost like a touch of jealousy, like admiration even. I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about these things or say that out loud, but I understood it. It wasn't like other people were, like, beating the walls, like, why? Why? I had no idea he was sad. I had no idea he was struggling in any way. I just. What could I have done differently? And I knew that I'd done my best in being, like, one of his best friends and a good listener. And I. I was there for him in the best way that I could. I don't feel like I could have done anything more. Like, he trusted me and. And I was there for him. And I felt like I. I didn't feel like it was my fault. And I also. But I also didn't have that sentiment that other people were having where it's like, how could this have happened right beneath my nose? I had no idea. I just kind of, like, understood. But it was still like a horrible tragedy. And I ended up arranging the memorial service in Provo for him. He had a funeral in Texas, where he was from. And then I arranged a memorial in Provo and a lot of people came and it was beautiful. And a quartet played his favorite orchestral piece, which was Adagio for strings, arranged for a quartet. And it was a nice time to remember him. And I was still. I was still hanging on to my own fate. My faith was still fairly intact. I would say. I don't think his death rocked my faith because at that time, I had made a decision that I. I wasn't going to leave the church. I wasn't going to be a touring musician. I was going to. I decided that I would stay on the covenant path and I would get married in the temple and have children like a good girl should do. And then Sam was in my life.

John Dehlin [02:16:17] And did you maintain the belief that same sex sexual behavior was wrong?

Liz Lambson [02:16:25] I was. I was never like, I don't feel like I had a strong opinion. All I knew was that I had hope for Alan's future, despite what the church might have to say. I had a feeling that something was amiss

John Dehlin [02:16:54] in the church's theology.

Liz Lambson [02:16:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:16:56] Okay.

Liz Lambson [02:16:58] I did not believe ever at any point that he was a bad person

John Dehlin [02:17:05] or sinful in that way.

Liz Lambson [02:17:07] No.

John Dehlin [02:17:08] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:10] I think it might be nice to just take a minute and kind of bring up suicide a bit and provide a suicide hotline number just because we. It did come up in content today. So for those, I mean, do you want to take it, John, and kind of give a little segment around that?

John Dehlin [02:17:33] So I, I think in the United States you can now dial 988, which is a suicide crisis lifeline. There's Also a website, 988lifeline.org there's also the it's It Gets Better project. And then there's always your local behavioral health unit, like, like uni at University of Utah. But if any of you find yourself in that situation, please reach out and get support.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] Okay. One last question for me, Liz. Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [02:18:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:11] And we'll wrap up this section. So one of the conundrums, one of the paradoxes of high demand religions or cults is that the, the joys of joining seem so profoundly high. If you, if you watch any. And I'm not calling the Mormon Church occult, but I, I'm, I'm speaking about cults right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:41] You watch any cult documentary, whether it's Wild Wild country or Holy Hell or Nexium, you know, with, with Sarah Edmondson, the vow. Right. Going clear with Scientology, you'll have all the members saying the good times in the high demand religion or cult were the best times of their lives, even after they left, left the cult. That the good times were better than anything they ever experienced and that it really brought them important things, gave them community, gave them friendships, gave them meaning and purpose and identity. And, and it was exhilarating.

Liz Lambson [02:19:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:24] And so that's always, there's always this two sided coin.

Liz Lambson [02:19:27] Yeah. Because why would you be a part of it if it weren't fulfilling in some way?

John Dehlin [02:19:33] And not just fulfilling, but sometimes profoundly meaningful.

Liz Lambson [02:19:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:37] And that's how I perceived your Mormon, your, your dry Mormon experience in part one. Right. And, and so like I'm leaving part one of your interview thinking, man, the Mormon Church was great for Liz.

Liz Lambson [02:19:51] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [02:19:52] I mean, you had a rough childhood and the Mormon Church just jumped right in and what's not to love about like all. And you end up a concert, you know, basis, like.

Liz Lambson [02:20:02] Yeah. So on the one hand that it took me on.

John Dehlin [02:20:05] Yes. On the one hand it's like almost salvific. And then there's this other side of the coin which is it becomes once you actually join and then have to deal with the worthiness stuff and the, and the shame cycle, it becomes so toxic, you, you're not sure you want to keep living.

Liz Lambson [02:20:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:25] Like what a double side.

Liz Lambson [02:20:27] I know. It's isn't, isn't it just so funny that like. Like the. I would say the best and happiest year of my life was my freshman year at BYU before I got baptized. It was as soon as I got baptized that things started. It was like the top of the. Well, I wouldn't even. I wouldn't compare it to a roller coaster because it's not fun. It was just the. The peak. And things started going downhill from there and then. And we will get to this. But I thought that getting married in the temple and following the covenant path and getting married and doing what was right and following the commandments would be the cure.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:10] Yes.

Liz Lambson [02:21:11] Yeah, that would be the answer.

John Dehlin [02:21:14] So there's always that next step, right?

Liz Lambson [02:21:16] Yeah. Because if the church is what kept me safe or what. What I felt was my safe place, now it was no longer safe, but if I could find a good marriage, that could be my new safe space. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:30] It's like maybe you could create that.

Liz Lambson [02:21:31] Yeah. I needed a new home. I needed someone to protect me.

John Dehlin [02:21:35] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:21:36] Protection. I was looking for someone who could provide and protect me.

John Dehlin [02:21:41] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:21:42] And I found him.

John Dehlin [02:21:44] All right, Margi, any final. Any final things?

Margi Dehlin [02:21:47] No?

John Dehlin [02:21:47] Okay. All right. Well, Liz, this part two has been amazing. Just like part one. So thank you for all the vulnerability. You talked about some really difficult stuff, including mental illness, self harm and suicidality.

Liz Lambson [02:22:02] Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] And suicide.

Liz Lambson [02:22:04] I'm so happy.

John Dehlin [02:22:05] No apologies. Your story is in no way singular.

Liz Lambson [02:22:10] I won't be offended if somebody just tuned out because it was too much. Because, like, I called a friend the other day and was like, hey, I'm going through some stuff. And we hadn't talked in a really long time and I paused partway through and was like, tell me if you. I paused and I was like, tell me if you need to pause if this is too much. It was the first time someone had said to me, actually, yeah, this is too much. Yeah, let's stop there.

John Dehlin [02:22:36] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:22:37] So, yeah, thank you for listening for those who stuck with me this far.

John Dehlin [02:22:40] Well, thanks for your vulnerability because it helps people not feel broken and not feel alone when they see their story in someone else's. But it takes courage for someone to be willing to be out there and talk about hard things publicly, very publicly. In this case.

Liz Lambson [02:22:56] I'm a pretty open book.

John Dehlin [02:22:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:58] Yeah, we're grateful for you.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:01] Well, everyone, please, please come right back for part three where we're going to be talking about. We're going to be seeing whether marriage and motherhood fixed everything for Liz.

Liz Lambson [02:23:10] Marriage, that's so fun.

John Dehlin [02:23:13] And she'll have A different outfit.

Liz Lambson [02:23:14] I will for the marriage. My Relief Society cardigan. It's really pretty.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:20] You should come back just for that

Liz Lambson [02:23:24] again.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] So come back for part three and then part four will be Liz's deconstruction with Mormonism. Please subscribe. If you're on YouTube or on Facebook, please subscribe. We're trying to reach a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube. That's really valuable for us because it helps us land better guests and it also notifies you when new episodes come out. So it's a win win. So please. It helps with the algorithm. So please subscribe. Thanks for everyone who donates to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. If you want to donate, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. But. But thanks for joining us. Also, we're going to be talking about Liz's song.

Liz Lambson [02:24:04] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:06] We're going to figure out where to, where to include that. But Liz is going to be releasing a song that she's just finished recording

Liz Lambson [02:24:13] single that has been that I kind of wrote in anticipation of this, this event, this podcast interview.

John Dehlin [02:24:22] And that's super special. So look forward to that and just much, much more. So thanks for your support. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Get help if you need it. Call a hotline or visit a, a therapist or a behavioral health unit. If you need help. Get help. Get support. There's hope.

Liz Lambson [02:24:42] And I love you.

John Dehlin [02:24:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:44] Yes, we care about you.

John Dehlin [02:24:45] Yeah. And thanks again. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Mormon Identity, Dress Standards, and Temple Preparation

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 1725

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today we are now in part three of our interview with Liz Lampson. I am joined by my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Liz Lambson [00:00:15] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] Thanks for joining.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:17] Yeah, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] For those who didn't watch parts one and two, we've had an amazing series so far with Liz. As we were talking to Liz about the themes, I just want to kind of give a quick recap. Liz was born, if I'm remembering right, and Liz will correct me, she was born to an African American father from Louisiana and a South Korean mother, kind of a biracial, interracial marriage. Raised vaguely Catholic but not super religious. And in part one, Liz advanced kind of three themes for part one, which were abandonment, adolescence, and atonement. It talks about how Liz's mother abandoned or left the family when Liz was around 10 years old and how that was very difficult for her and for the family. How she made some friends who were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the LDS Church and became what I think she called a dry Mormon all throughout her high school years growing up in Colorado Springs. Yeah, Colorado Springs, Colorado. And how in her adolescent years she found her way. But the Mormon Church was a very important part of her adolescence, even even though her father would not allow her to get baptized. And there were also some themes around dating and sexual purity or modesty, culture, love, chastity kind of stuff. Anyway, it's a really important part one. If you haven't watched parts one and two yet, please pause, go back and watch them, and that will provide the groundwork for parts three and four, which we're covering today. Saws part one and then part two. Liz actually ends up going to Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, as a non Mormon. She's there on a music scholarship where she played the bass, the stand up bass for BYU's most elite orchestra, toured the world with BYU and started, you know, trying to date and got baptized at byu. So the themes that she advanced for part two were BYU baptism and boyfriends. And again, really important episode. Please go watch that. And it culminates in Liz sort of realizing that she actually enjoyed Mormonism more when she was not an official member. Because once she started experiencing the worthiness interviews and the pressure around the honor code and perfectionism, that it became unhealthy for her. And it kind of culminated in a pretty dramatic point where she's kind of nearing the end of her time at BYU contemplating whether she wanted to just become an artist, full time, performing artist, full time, or sort of like really commit to the traditional Mormon woman way. And, you know, we kind of ended part two with her saying, I think I'm gonna, I'm a little bit afraid of doing the full time artist thing, even though I have doubts about the church. And maybe I think I'm going to commit to the Mormon way. Which brings us to part three. And one of the most amazing things about this series is Liz has a different outfit for each of the parts.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:37] Let's appreciate it.

Liz Lambson [00:03:38] Liz.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Liz Lambson [00:03:40] Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] And tell us about your outfit. You could, if you want to describe your outfits for parts one and two, just as a recap, because I didn't, I didn't mention your outfits. And then you could tell us what this outfit is.

Liz Lambson [00:03:54] Yeah, yeah. Let's see. So for part one, my childhood in the 90s, I wore just a nice really bright 90s windbreaker zipper jacket and a velvet choker. Nod to the 90s, episode two, I wore a BYU Cougar Blue Corset representing the sort of restraint restraining one's sexuality in that environment, and over a very churchy floral yellow blouse that one could wear to church. So just these competing, competing themes through in what I was wearing today as we enter into the married years. I am wearing a classic Relief Society cardigan. You can't see it, but I have a nice muted brown, well beyond the knee length skirt fully covering the garments. And I have brought a message about this cardigan from Relief Society Sister Liz.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Now, is this a, is this a sweater you actually wore?

Liz Lambson [00:05:11] No, it's new.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] It's symbolic.

Liz Lambson [00:05:13] Yeah, I love it.

John Dehlin [00:05:14] That's even better. It's artistic.

Liz Lambson [00:05:16] Okay, so if you don't mind, I have prepared a. A two minute talk.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Please.

Liz Lambson [00:05:23] The cardigan, which I will share in my best Relief Society Sister voice.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:05:30] As if this were Women's Conference or something.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:32] Oh, brilliant.

Liz Lambson [00:05:33] Okay. Welcome to Women's Conference.

Liz Lambson [00:05:36] My dear Relief Society sisters, how grateful

Liz Lambson [00:05:41] I am for each of you today.

Liz Lambson [00:05:44] I would like to bear my testimony of the importance of our clothing and what our clothing communicates. Specifically, I have chosen to speak today about the cardigan of the holy priesthood. I know many of you have felt the warm, protective, powerful influence of the cardigan in your lives. The cardigan has sheltered our shoulders from the carnivorous gaze of predatory sex hungry men with very active loins since Sister Coco chanel introduced this mom post polygamy era staple in the early 1920s, the cardigan has shielded the white fabric of our garments from curious gentile stares. It has allowed us to wear otherwise slutty sleeveless dresses, miraculously made modest in combination with down east layering shirts to hide our sacred breasts. But as good as the cardigan is, dear sisters, I feel strongly that it is time to step up our game. To quote my favorite patriarchal leader, President Dallin H. Oaks, we have to forego some good things in order to choose others that are better or best. Dear sisters, the golden beads accentuating the knit collars of the cardigan I wear today are not enough. It is time for us to do better, be better and wear better sisters. Even if it means removing your favorite set of well washed Karen as a garments. I stand before you today to share counsel. I have received from the Lord that it is time to dress in a way that reflects who you truly are. In a way that makes you feel comfortable, beautiful and authentic. I know, I know the restoration of your wardrobe to reflect the fullness of your identity will be difficult, perhaps even frightening at times.

Liz Lambson [00:08:01] But I testify that as you embrace the full potential of your divine nature

Liz Lambson [00:08:06] and dress in a way that makes you shine instead of shrivel into a dusty prune, shrinking behind the shadows of your husbands, you will find greater joy, greater peace, greater confidence, and more exciting intimate relationships as you embark on a journey to accept the sexual body with which you have been endowed by God. Now to follow the counsel of Elder Ballard to the women of the church. I will refrain from talking too much. After straightening you all out quickly, let us move the work on. Sisters, I love you. I want the best for you. I share this with you in the name of the cardigan, the camisole and the holy brassiere. Amen.

Liz Lambson [00:08:57] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:57] Brilliant. Brilliant.

Liz Lambson [00:08:58] Thank you for listening to my talk about cardigan.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] That's a spicy way to begin.

Liz Lambson [00:09:04] I love it. So, you know, with these costume changes, I make the point that what we wear affects how we feel. What we wear communicates something. Often you look at people's fashion choices and you think, hey, that's an outward expression of their inward personality. But there's the flip side where what you wear on the outside can affect how you feel inwardly and. And thinking of garments, Mormon garments. That's a great example of how what you wear on the outside affects how you feel on the inside. And I think reflecting on wearing garments underneath these layers to me, made me feel the feeling of submissiveness or submission. You know, wearing and I think, I wonder if it's different for men when they wear the garments of the holy priesthood, if that makes them feel or reminds them of the power that they hold, perhaps the garments of the priesthood that I hold. Whereas for women, you wear the garments of the holy priesthood, and that is recognizing the priesthood power, the priesthood direction that you have committed to follow. You're going to be obedient, you're going to be respectful, you're going to listen to what the priesthood holders tell you to do. So anyway, what you wear affects how you feel and it also communicates to others how it just, it's, it, you know, goes both ways. Inward to outward, outward to inward. Clothing is important.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Totally. Totally. Yeah. And, you know, we refer a lot back to Stephen Hasson's work on high demand religions and or cults. The bite model and the bee in the bite model represents behavior. And one of the key patterns or tools that are used in high demand religions is the control of things like food, drink, sex and clothing. Clothing is a really important, whether it's ultra Orthodox Judaism, you know, Evangelical Christianity, Islam, you know, or Mormonism. Clothing is an essential part of the conditioning and of the identity that these, these traditions need us to conform to.

Liz Lambson [00:11:41] Yeah, yeah. The word conformity, we're going to come

John Dehlin [00:11:47] back to that really quickly. What I, what I also wanted to make sure we mentioned before we began is just again to reintroduce, you know, kind of your, your world outside of this interview. So. Liz Lampson is a Korean African American artist, musician and writer. Along with her spouse, Sam is a parent to five boys residing in Salt Lake City. Liz performs as a string bassist with the Ballet West Orchestra, as well as the children's singer, songwriter Lizzie Luna, the creator of the music and movement program Yoga Storytime and Songs. Liz performed for and toured with the Mormon Tabernac Choir and Orchestra at Temple Square, which we'll be talking about, I think, in this episode. Yeah, just to know a little bit about what that's like. For several years, she released her first album of original children's yoga music, Reach to the sky, in 2018. Her writing has been featured in publications including the New Era and the New York Times. I think we talked about your Newer era article in part two.

Liz Lambson [00:12:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] So, yeah. And she's an active member of Utah's arts and culture community. She formerly served as the executive director of the Utah Black History Museum. Her artwork is featured on Salt Lake City's Black Lives Matter mural at City Hall. And you're an aspiring film actress okay, we're ready.

Liz Lambson [00:13:13] So many things.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] So let's launch into part three. Where do you want to begin?

Courtship, Marriage Decision, and Temple Wedding

Liz Lambson [00:13:19] Well, I think we left off with that moment of decision. Margi, you mentioned seeing things through a lens. Moment of decision. Looking through a lens at my future. Do I choose to stay in the church and get married and be the Mormon housewife that I aspired to be when I joined, or do I go and be an artist, hit the road, be free? So I was my last year at byu, my second senior year, my fifth year, and that fall, I went to my neighbor's apartment to hang out. And I saw a young man in the room sitting on the couch. And when I entered the room, he said, hey, you're Liz Lams. Or, sorry, you're Liz Rhodes. We met on this BYU orchestra tour. You were on tour in Rome. I was on my mission there. And your bus got lost. And do you remember me? And I didn't. But thinking back, like, okay, yeah, our bus got lost. There was someone who got on the bus, but he didn't look like a missionary anymore. He was a little more. Longer hair, a little more scraggly. But this was my. Who would become my husband, Sam. And we became friends. We started dating. And in true BYU fashion, the topic of marriage came up within two months. That was the trend with my two previous boyfriends. Date for 2 months and marriage is on the table. But what was different with Sam, what was interesting, is that we didn't talk about marriage before he proposed. So we dated for two months.

Liz Lambson [00:15:10] And.

Liz Lambson [00:15:10] And then he absolutely surprised me with a very sincere, genuine proposal in the sense that he proposed the idea of what our life could look like together. And then I just had a moment to think about it and respond. So, you know, because I think a lot of couples nowadays, and even within Mormonism, you talk about getting married, you go and you pick out a ring, you discuss it. But this was. He really popped the question in a very surprising way, took me off. It caught me off guard. Thankfully, he proposed with a fake ring, which was the opposite of what I would have chosen for myself. But he gave me the opportunity after the fact to pick what I wanted. And he proposed in New York City. I was there visiting my sister. And he. There were kind of two proposals, one with the fake ring. And then we got the ring that I wanted, and he took me. We went ice skating at Rockefeller Center, New Year's Day, and he pulled me to the center of the ice rink and got down on one knee and big show. And I was really just overwhelmed in so many ways. But part of why he proposed so quickly is that graduation was coming up. Like my last semester of BYU was beginning following that New Year's, and he had one more year left for his master's and he had an internship lined up that summer in California. And he was really worried that if he went on his internship, if he went away without me, that our relationship would dissolve.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] A question.

Liz Lambson [00:17:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] What type of Mormon was Sam? Was he, and was he an orthodox, strict, conservative, uptight Mormon? Was he liberal, progressive Mormon? Where did he fit? Describe his Mormonism, if you can?

Liz Lambson [00:17:36] Yeah, I would say closer to the latter. Something that I really appreciated about Sam was that he was. He was more chill. He was not into all the strict orthodox rules. You know, when I had been dating Stan, I remember an experience at the grocery store where I was reaching for a box of herbal tea and Stan was like, mmm, like, better safe than sorry. Better not drink that herbal tea. It's best to just stay away from all of that. Whereas Sam was not that way at all. And he. He came from a. He was, you know, the middle of five siblings. Two of those weren't active in the church at the time. And he. This was a big thing.

Liz Lambson [00:18:28] He had.

Liz Lambson [00:18:29] He had gone to high school in Hong Kong. His family lived there. They were expats. So he'd gone to an international school, Hong Kong international school, and was. Had been exposed to the ways of the world. He, you know, those adolescent years for him were in an environment that was really freeing and opened his mind to a lot of things he wouldn't have been exposed to had he done high school in Gilbert, Arizona, where he was growing up, although he did return back there for his senior year. So there is a theme I noticed with all the three serious boyfriends that I had at byu is that each one of them had had some experience or exposure to a foreign culture. So, you know, the first boyfriend I mentioned, he didn't date me until he served in Hawaii with brown Polynesian people. And I. And I always suspected that that opened his mind to feeling comfortable with me as a brown person, but maybe exoticized

John Dehlin [00:19:44] a little bit, perhaps, possibly.

Liz Lambson [00:19:47] And then the second boyfriend, he had served his mission in Japan. And so he really appreciated my Asian culture, my Asian side. And after we broke up, he started dating another half Asian young woman. And they got married within months, like very quickly. So he knew what he wanted, he knew what he liked. And then Sam, too, you know, had. Had spent a very important part of his youth in Asia. And So he also appreciated my ethnic background. My. We could connect in terms of how much we had traveled the world and our love for Asian culture and Asian things. And he was, you know, had that international attitude that was very accepting of me. So that was important.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] May I ask a tiny bit about that?

Liz Lambson [00:20:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] What's it like to have someone value you in part because of your ethnicity? In other words, on the one hand, it's horrific for how to have someone not like you because of your ethnicity? So you wouldn't want that.

Liz Lambson [00:21:04] It's like.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] At the same time, I could imagine you wouldn't want to be exoticized or objectified because in some sense, you don't choose your ethnicity.

Liz Lambson [00:21:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] On the other hand, you want to be loved and valued for who you are. So what. What is there anything you would want to share about?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:19] And there might be a sense of feeling more seen sometimes if someone has actually spent time in a culture that you, you know, relate to, come from, and is part of your identity. So is it complicated?

Liz Lambson [00:21:34] Oh, it's so complicated. Absolutely. I mean, you nailed it. It's like, I think I'd mentioned in a previous episode how, like, the kind of hypochondriac attitude where, like, oh, if something's wrong with me, someone will notice me or take pity on me. Like, if I had a broken arm and someone wants to sign my cast. And so there is. When you're different, that makes you stand out, sometimes in good ways and sometimes in bad ways. And so it was preferable to me to be noticed in a positive way for my ethnic differences. But, I mean, people would make comments like, if I wrapped my hair in a scarf and wore it to school, people would call me Aunt Jemima. Like these little kind of microaggressive things. But at the same time, other people, maybe without saying that I looked like a kitchen servant, would say that the scarf was really cool.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] And

Liz Lambson [00:22:46] so it was hard to interpret people's reactions to just who I was. It still is, I think. I mean, I've come personally, I've come to really embrace all the things that make me unique, whether it's my racial background or the nature of my mental health. We talked about that a bit. The way my brain works, the things that make me different, I have come to love and see them as good things. I try to see them as blessings, whereas you can easily see these things as curses as well. So how I see myself has become much more positive in terms of me seeing these things as blessings. But I can't change how Other people might view it if they see me more as cursed.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:42] Yeah, that's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:23:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:46] Can I ask a question about Sam?

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Please?

Liz Lambson [00:23:47] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:48] So you've brought up one kind of one way that Sam may have stood out from, you know, other people you've dated. Or are there other things that come to mind when you think about your experience dating Sam that made him different?

Liz Lambson [00:24:05] Yeah, I mean, he. Someone asked me recently what my favorite thing about him is. He's really, really funny. Like, he's so funny. His sense of humor, his. His wit. He's so sharp. He's so fast. And so he put me at ease. He helped me relax. Being with him, you know, in that environment that was so uptight, where the, you know, BYU or the church in general is not a comfortable place for perfectionists. And so he wasn't concerned with all the little things. He was more of a big picture person. And so he was really just down to earth intelligent, again, funny. And I think what was apparent right away is that we just could talk to each other endlessly. And I did feel comfortable talking with other people that I dated, but not in the same way like Sam and I. I mean, not to boast about myself, but like, we're kind of more intellectual. We could get into, you know, really meaty, deep conversations about anything and everything. And so I thought this is someone that I could talk to indefinitely. You know, we'll never. I will never get bored with this person. That's true.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] I love that. One other follow up question. One of the things I didn't mention in the introduction for today of the recap of the past episodes was how interwoven your affections for Stan were in your adolescence and early adulthood and how you wanted to marry Stan. He went on his mission, waited for Stan, he came home, and you even dated him for a while. And then that being so central to your conversion and commitment to the church. And then it didn't work out.

Liz Lambson [00:26:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] How did you process or experience things not working out with Stan and then Sam as an alternative or as something different? Was that disappointing? Was it actually exciting? Like, how did you experience Stan not working out? It was Stan, right?

Liz Lambson [00:26:46] Yeah, it was Stan. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:26:48] I think,

Liz Lambson [00:26:51] you know, as I was saying, like, well, it's. It's true that when, when things didn't work out with Stan, it was like, this is what I've been working towards. I have been. I followed him here, you know, and so it did feel like the whole world fell apart. And. And there I had had that conversation with him where he was like, there are other fish in the sea, Liz. And I was like, no, but none. Like, true. There were no other stands. But meeting Sam, though, was like this perfect middle ground to that where I felt like, okay, my choices are to leave the church and be myself or to be the Mormon wife. And it seemed like maybe there's a way with Sam that I could be both. He's relaxed enough that I think that he will genuinely accept that the artistic free bird qualities that I have while still providing me with the stability and framework of the safe Mormon home life. So he was. His degree made a difference. He was studying information systems. He chose that degree instead of political science or Italian humanities, these things he's also passionate about. But he chose that degree because it was, at the time, anyway, you could make the most money right out of BYU with that specific degree. So he was very motivated to become a very stable provider. And I was also looking for that because I was afraid of graduating and living in a box with my guitar. That was a scary idea. So. And then I also had these mental health issues, and so I knew I needed health care. Right. And so I knew that with Sam, he would take care of me. And this was part of his proposal, part of what he explained to me when he asked me to marry him. He said he would always support me as an artist and a musician and a writer. He, financially or otherwise, he did not want to squash those parts of me and that he would always be there to help me do the things that make me who I am. And he's stayed true to that promise, which is magnificent. Couldn't ask for more from a partner.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:44] That's so meaningful.

Liz Lambson [00:29:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] So he was internationally experienced enough, open minded enough, progressive Mormon enough.

Liz Lambson [00:29:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] To not try and jam you into the super rigid Relief Society full time mom, you know, Mormon ideal.

Liz Lambson [00:30:11] Yeah. Although we still both held on to that ideal. I mean, he'd gone on his mission and he came back. This is hilarious to me. He came back from his mission with that missionary attitude. Like, okay, if you approach gathering converts to the church in this numerical way, you know, make so many contacts per day, give away this many Book of Mormons, invite, extend this many invitations, and that will equate to this number of converts. He came to BYU after his mission with that approach with dating. So he was like, if I get this many phone numbers and I go on this many dates, I will be able to find my internal companion if I approach it in this way. So he had like a little book kind of like what the missionaries have, where he would keep track of his dates, the phone number. He had to get so many phone numbers per week. So when he'd get on the bus at school, he'd get, you know, try to get a girl's number. And it started getting confusing because he'd have a first date with someone and then the second date with so and so. And just had to kind of balance this. It was a game.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:24] Like, how do you compare a second date to a first date?

Liz Lambson [00:31:28] But over time, he realized that it wasn't working. He wasn't. He wasn't even making friends with these people. It was so shallow. And so he remained single till, well, the ripe old age of 24.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] That's when I married Margaret.

Liz Lambson [00:31:49] 24, which, at BYU, I mean, people, as they approach graduation. And I felt this, too. Like, there's this pressure. Like, if you don't find your eternal spouse or your eternal companion before you graduate from byu, you have failed, and you will have a very difficult time finding someone outside of this place. So I think both of us felt that sense of urgency. Like, I was nearing my graduation. This was sort of my last chance to find that Mormon man to marry. And he was an excellent choice.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] So it seems like in the husband department or in the spouse partner department, you kind of hit the jackpot from. From what I am hearing so far, yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:32:39] Sam's a really good guy. I feel like he's. Gosh, I mean, I say it to him sometimes. He hates it when I say this, but I feel like he could. He. He could do better.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] Like, I don't know about that.

Liz Lambson [00:32:53] I know we're gonna give you pushback,

John Dehlin [00:32:57] but you talked about. I think you said this off screen. I asked you. And we don't want to jump to the end, but we asked you whether, you know, there's a part of you that wishes you had just left byu, left the church, and become an artist, you know, in your early 20s. And your response was pretty profound to me. I don't know if you want to share that now or later.

Liz Lambson [00:33:19] Yeah, I mean, my mental health was in such a poor state that I really was afraid that if I went out on my own, I wouldn't survive. I imagined myself spiraling out and taking my own life because that's something that I would settle into and want to do many times. And so that. That was always something to think about. I needed someone to protect me or keep me safe. Like, there was a time. I'm not sure if I mentioned this. There was a couple Months where I lived in an apartment by myself at byu. And my therapist at the time was like, you cannot be alone. If you need to go stay with somebody else, stay with a friend. We got to find your roommate something, but you can't be alone. This isn't safe for you. And so I thought, you know, being married, having. Having someone to kind of take care of me would. Would be useful.

John Dehlin [00:34:27] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:34:28] For my own survival.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:34:31] Interestingly enough, when we got married, that turned into one of, if not the worst summer of my life. Sam took me on that internship and we were in a one bedroom apartment and he'd go to work and I was just alone, like in this box. And I remember a friend telling me that her. Just some advice from her dad, like, keep. Keep major life changes down to 1 per year. Ish. But when I got married, it was. We got married the day after I graduated. Like, literally the day after graduation was on Friday. Got married on Saturday. And then we had our honeymoon. We moved to California for his internship. I left my job, I left my friends. I left everything that was familiar to me. I left my therapist, I left my doctors, everything. All of that happened in the span of one week. And. And then you throw in, you know, having, like, losing your virginity and all these, like, first sexual. Like intense sexual experiences. That's.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:44] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:35:44] Also really huge. So I really struggled that. That summer being. Well, I'd spend so many hours alone in this apartment without a car, and I was miserable.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] Is there anything you want to talk about? The wedding or the. Your. Your first temple?

Liz Lambson [00:36:11] Oh, yeah. Yes, actually. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] Or anything El. Your courtship. Like, law of Ch. Is. Does law of chastity, bishop worthiness interviews figure in any of this?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:21] I just.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] I don't want to jump over.

Liz Lambson [00:36:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it. We had talked about. We talked about that M word, one of the previous. In the previous episodes, that terrible habit, the. The masturbation habit. And I was so. I don't know, I felt this need to confess. Like, when would I learn that, like, it was better to just keep some things to yourself? You know, like I'd said. I had said earlier, like before these. Before introducing the worthiness interview and the accountability to a priesthood holder. After my baptism, before then, I could just work this out between me and God and. And feel fine and go through a very simple and straightforward repentance process and find peace. But when you throw in that middleman, literally a man, it's. It gets more complicated and messy. And so I admitted to this heinous act, to my Bishop while I was. While I was dating Sam. And again, it led to me losing my temple recommend during. While we were engaged. So we're approaching our wedding date. It's already scheduled, it's planned, the date set at the Salt Lake Temple. And there was this like, oh, my gosh, but am I going to be temple worthy in time? Can I get through the repentance process in time so that we can get married? And how embarrassing would that be to, like, cancel our temple sealing? And people would be like, oh, what happened? Why is she pregnant?

Liz Lambson [00:38:12] It's like, no, she just touched herself.

Liz Lambson [00:38:15] You know, like, how embarrassing would that be?

John Dehlin [00:38:18] Because people would know that you did something, I did something. And they would be likely to assume the worst.

Liz Lambson [00:38:24] Yeah. Yeah. And so there was that going on as well, these meetings with my bishop at the time.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] So you basically said, I'm taking your temple argument away.

Liz Lambson [00:38:38] Well, it was a little more complex with him in the sense that he was like, do you feel worthy? And I'd been so conditioned by that point to think, no, I'm not worthy.

Liz Lambson [00:38:51] I'm a horrible person.

Liz Lambson [00:38:53] I'm on the level of an adulteress, as my previous bishop had established with me for.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] For masturbation.

Liz Lambson [00:39:00] Yeah, because that's having sex with yourself, which is on the same level as adultery. I mean, I think in a lot of Mormon culture, it seems like having an orgasm equals sex. So if you experience that, then you've committed the great sin. The ultimate pleasure is the ultimate sin. And that. That is not something that once you get married, that. That conditioning doesn't go away. So.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] So what was it like to have that experience with your bishop right before your. Your marriage?

Liz Lambson [00:39:44] What was it like for you? Stressful. So stressful. It was. It was similar to the feeling like there was a class that. A general ed class that I'd put off to my last semester. And there was the option to take. Take the class, attend class, and get the. Take your grade from the class, or you could take your grade on the final. So I chose to not attend the class the entire semester and plan to just take the final and pass the class. So it was literally the week before our marriage, the week before graduation and our wedding, where I was reading this entire science textbook, hoping that I would pass it so that I could graduate. And I did. I got a C. But that. That of like, oh, my gosh, am I going to pass? Am I going to pass so I can graduate was exactly the feeling I had working with my bishop. Oh, my gosh, am I going to get through the repentance process. Am I going to pass? Am I going to be able to have that card so that I can get married the day after graduation? Is it going to work out? And meanwhile, we're putting the whole wedding together and.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:50] So stressful.

Liz Lambson [00:40:51] Oh, super stressful. Just to have that one element hanging over my head and. But again, there's just this crazy double standard where I'm sure, I know my husband was doing the same thing, but the boys don't get. They don't get any consequences. And they also, I think it's just sort of like boys will be boys. They don't feel a need to confess because they've done nothing wrong. Like, it's not a big deal. But for women who really embrace the. The standards of what it takes to be a virtuous, worthy woman, any kind of sexual activity or experience or feeling, even just feeling that way can make you feel like a terrible, fallen person. So.

Liz Lambson [00:41:42] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:41:42] And it was so hard to, you know, we were taking like a marriage prep class and they would talk about. They, they recommended this book, I brought it. And they were not ashamed.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Brotherson.

Liz Lambson [00:42:00] Yeah. Like, like just preparing you. Like, okay, I know you feel ashamed now, but you'll get married and then you need to overcome that feeling of shame. But that's not something that happens instantly. I don't think it's ever gone away for me. I.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] So talk about. So obviously you get married and you become sexually active. How does the Mormon conditioning extend into your marriage in a not helpful way?

Liz Lambson [00:42:27] Yeah, I mean, I just,

Liz Lambson [00:42:31] I think.

Liz Lambson [00:42:32] And I think I'm still like this. Like, I can have a really amazing sexual experience and then just still feel kind of bad or yucky about it after or just feel yucky. Yeah, it's a, It's a huge bummer. I'm still working on that.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] Wait, so how many years into your marriage?

Liz Lambson [00:42:53] Almost 15.

John Dehlin [00:42:55] So you're saying 15 years into your marriage, the conditioning, the negative conditioning and associations around sexuality that you received in the Mormon church make it so that 15 years into your marriage you still feel guilt or shame or yuckiness when you experience sexual pleasure?

Liz Lambson [00:43:15] Yeah, yeah, that's.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:18] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:43:19] It's a pretty intense cultural programming.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:23] It is. I don't. I mean, what's your take on that? I don't feel like that's unusual.

Liz Lambson [00:43:29] I don't think so. And I don't think it's any specific to Mormonism. I think it's a. There are layers, expectations for women. I mean, it applies to so many things. Like, you know, if I work even part time, I can feel icky and yucky about that, you know, because it's not what women should do. Question mark. Yeah, yeah, it applies. That feeling applies to a lot of things. I wanted to mention this, this experience I had when we were shopping wedding dresses. And this goes back to kind of the clothing thing, but there was. My sister in law ended up making my wedding dress. The fashion. She's a fashion designer and very talented and she was the one who was not actively Mormon, had gone inactive as a teenager, I think. So she was used to wearing what she wanted, living the way she wanted. And so prior to deciding, settling that she would make my dress, I went to a wedding dress store and I tried on, just for fun, I guess, the most beautiful, like sleeveless, strapless, gorgeous dress. And I remember feeling like so beautiful, like amazing. And the people I was with, you know, I was just like, well, too bad, you know, shrug. Like, you can't wear the dress that you want. Sorry, that's just how it is. And I remember, you know, taking it off and giving it back and, and I was wearing like a black lacy bra for that while we were, while I was on that shopping trip and someone said, said or something that made me feel bad about that and then. But so I'm feeling bad about just like, but I like wearing this. I like feeling sexy, I like feeling beautiful, but it's not a good thing. And then simultaneously my husband's like lamenting and pining because he's dreading when I have to start wearing garments he didn't want me to because he just didn't. He knew that that would like, I mean, I was already being good, good and following the rules and covering my shoulders and stuff. But you know, if he was like, if we were embracing or whatever, he could tell it was just like a shirt and my skin, that's it, like versus like layers and the cardigan with the down east shirt and the garments and the bra and like just, just so much to work with here. It's like loc that you have to come through. He was like not looking forward to it. But then at the same time, like I still believed in, I believed in these, in the whole, all of it, all of it. The, the doctrines, the commandments. And I, I do want to. Well, so my, my sister in law did and we picked out this really beautiful vintage pattern that she would, she would make this dress and it was like, it was all lace with like this slip underneath. And because I was edgy it wasn't a pure white dress. I knew that I wouldn't be able to wear it for the temple ceiling. I'd have to wear something different. So I bought a temple dress and then I had my wedding gown that I couldn't wear because it wasn't pure white. I couldn't wear it in the temple. But the pattern was like sleeveless. And like, both of us, it's like we're just like looking at each other. Like we know that adding little T shirt sleeves to this dress is. It's gonna make it kind of tacky, but it's just, it's not gonna be the same, but it's just what we have to do. And she was such a good sport, and she put little sleeves on it for me. But I, you know, put that on and thought back to that, that one beautiful, like, strapless gown that I tried on. And it's just one of those sacrifices you have to make, you know, and speaking of sacrifice, I just, you know, going. If I were to reflect on my wedding day, the worst part of it was having to leave my family outside, you know, for my, my dad, my sister, my brother to like, fly to Utah to come. To come to my wedding. But they couldn't, you know, and they literally were just standing outside in the cold. Like it was a cold day in April. It was snowing that week, and. And I had kind of told them, like, Sam's family is really cool. These are, these are the first Mormons they're gonna meet.

Non-Mormon Family Excluded from Temple Wedding

Liz Lambson [00:48:42] They're.

Liz Lambson [00:48:42] They're like, Mormons are cool. You just got to meet Sam's family. They're super cool and they are. But then, like, to exclude them, like, I'm ashamed. I'm ashamed that that's the experience that, that we had that day and that. And I allowed that to happen. Like, I chose to go in the temple and get married and leave my family outside in the cold for. I'm ashamed for our.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Never Mormons. Maybe explain why you had, why your family wasn't allowed to attend your wedding.

Liz Lambson [00:49:14] Well, because they're not worthy. I mean, I almost didn't make it in, so, you know, I barely got the card in time to go in. So if you're not, if you're not baptized, if you don't have a temple recommend, if you're not an active tithe paying member, that's another thing. You have to give money to the church to be able to access the temples. If you don't pay your tithing, you're not worthy. That's part of the interview. So they weren't members of the church. I was the only member of the church in my family. And so. And then at the time, they were like, it was just standard protocol to. To treat the Mormon Temple ceiling as, you know, they'd say, this is. That's the most important thing. That's the most important thing. So don't. Don't have another wedding ceremony because that you don't want to cheapen or draw away from the real marriage, which is the temple ceiling, you know, and. But what is the point of a wedding? The point of a wedding is so that your loved ones can come and celebrate with you and witness the moment that you become partnered with the person of your choice, with your loved one. That moment. That's when everyone claps and cheers. My family got to clap and cheer when they saw me walk out of the temple. Like, after the fact, they, you know, we walk out of the temple and there's this crowd of people, all the people who weren't allowed in or there wasn't enough room or whatever, and then they clap and they give me hugs. But for what? For something they didn't even get to see, something they weren't even a part of. It's like a tragedy. Like. And I don't know if there's also just, like, the visuals of it, too. You have, like, the brown and black people, like, outside in the cold, and you have the white people on the inside wearing white, just like this contrast. And it's like, you know, people will say, well, well, everyone's welcome in the temple. All, all. Anyone can go.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] You just have to do and pay the money.

Liz Lambson [00:51:29] But, like, you know, why are there not a lot of black people in Utah or in the temple? Why. Why is there a color difference here? Like, it's. There's a lot of reasons why. It's historical. So, you know, did my dad meet missionaries in his life? Did he meet Mormons in his life prior to that moment? Could he have attended as an active Mormon? Sure, if he had accepted an invitation from one of those people. But, you know, in his time, black men weren't even allowed to hold the priesthood. And so he'd met some Mormon who refused to shake his hand because he was black. He experienced, like, direct racist treatment from Mormon people. There were two things that he warned me about saying, please don't join the Mormon Church, if only for these two reasons. And he mentioned racism and the way that the Mormons treat women. And now that I've lived it and I've experienced those two things that he warned me about. I understand. I understand.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] So he had good reasons to not get baptized, and yet he was excluded from his own. And by the way he raised you as a single parent.

Liz Lambson [00:52:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] So, I mean, and yet he was excluded from his own daughter's wedding.

Liz Lambson [00:52:47] Yeah, this was the first. I was the first child to get married, the first child to have kids. And, you know, later, I was so offended. Like, I invited him to come to baby blessings, to come to baptisms, and he wouldn't come. He wouldn't set foot in a Mormon church. And I'd be like, well, why? That's so, like. Like, how rude that you're not showing up for me. But it's like, I didn't even make a way for him to show up for me when we got married, when I got into it in the first place. Like, why would he want to go into this environment, you know, if he wasn't welcome for the ordinance of my marriage, why should he feel welcome to come to a baptism or a baby blessing? How's that any different? You know, and for.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] I just want to make a final point for our audience. This is not a practice that, like, is just decades in the past. In 2023, it's very common still for non Mormons, non Mormon family members to be excluded from Mormon temple marriages.

Liz Lambson [00:53:58] You just can't go in. You just can't go in without a card. You can't get a card if you don't answer the questions. The. The. If you don't. If you haven't jumped over the hurdles. And it's. It's so sad, like, to go, like, everything is set up to be for families to look a certain way. Right. So you go into the ceiling room, and it's always the same setup, no matter who you are. And there's, like, a chair for the mom and the chair for the dad for both the bride and the groom. And so I just had, like, empty chairs. You know that Les Mis song. Empty chairs and empty tables. But these people weren't dead. Exactly. I don't know about my mom. She could be, but. No, they're just standing outside. That's right. It's an empty chair. Because we've all agreed to it, like, because

Margi Dehlin [00:54:55] they were denied entry. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:54:59] Like, oh, it's just. It's just so sad. And. And this. I mean. And in the end, I think we'll get to this more thoroughly in. In Part four. But I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna say it now. Like, when it comes down to it. When it comes down to it, it's all the reason why I can't be associated with this organization. Is dei. That's a common acronym now. Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. What is the opposite of those terms? The opposite of diversity is conformity, the opposite of equity is inequity, and the opposite of inclusion is exclusion. Those three things, conformity, inequity, and exclusion. That is what the Mormon Church stands for. From my vantage point, my deepest core values now are diversity, equity, and inclusion. I am ashamed that when I got married, I did not stand for those things. Why was I not outside with my family? Why did I exclude them? Why were the people who are different outside? Why was I participating in a system that just screams inequity, where there's worthiness and unworthiness, where you answer a question yes or no, and if you answer no, you're out, and if you answer yes, you're in.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] Some white dude gets to decide, right?

Liz Lambson [00:56:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Right?

Liz Lambson [00:56:41] Yeah. I mean, I just didn't have the courage at that age or at that time. And then I think I was just also ignorant and naive. And then the other fact is that I was believing. I just believed what I was being told. I believed that that's the way it had to be. And I look back and it's like, you know, my dad was so afraid of me joining the church and it pulling me away from my family. The way that my mom's religious fanaticism pulled her away from the family to the extent that she left ho. She left us, abandoned us, cut off all communication and religion and serving her, doing her missionary work in South Korea, that was part of it. That was part of it. Not. Not all of it, but that was part of it. And so then I joined the Mormon Church thinking like, it's. Well, it's all about family. I want this Mormon eternal family. I'm not. I'm. I come. I'm coming from a broken family. I'm looking for

Liz Lambson [00:57:39] family. And yet ignoring the fact that I

Liz Lambson [00:57:42] do have family, I do have a father who's sacrificing as a single dad to take care of me. I have siblings who I cherish. And I thought I could find some other form of family elsewhere, like a real family through Mormonism. And then in the end, it's like, oh, the purpose of temples is to seal eternal families, to bring us together, to tie everyone together. When it's like, look at how the church is separating families on Earth, how it's creating divisions between people in our in our life, in our mortal life. Like, who cares about the quality of your eternal relationships when they suck on earth because of what the church is teaching and telling you and the way that it's dividing you. You know, can. I didn't talk to my dad exactly about how he felt about being excluded and not in the room when I got married. But if I were him, I would never forgive me for that. I would hold that against me. And I wouldn't show up for my daughter's, her children's baptisms. I wouldn't show up for my grandkids baby blessings. Because how can I forgive you for what you did to me there? This church does not reflect true family values and connections.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] That's powerful. Margi's nodding W while thank you for sharing that. That is a really important topic to cover. Mostly. Well one, because it affects a lot of people. Margi's extended family stayed outside of the temple during our. Our wedding.

Liz Lambson [00:59:29] Yeah, it's not just Mar. It's. It's so. It's so exclusive that even amongst the Mormons, not everyone's allowed in. It's that exclusive. Like you talk about going and worshiping in the temple and as if like everyone's welcome at the temple, you know? Right. No, that's not true. But you talk about going to the temple as like a spiritual feast. And I'm just picturing like this tall, beautiful tower and if you are able bodied and you fit the right specifications, you can walk up the stairs to the feast at the top of the tower. And like I went to the temple just a few months ago and I had a lovely experience. It's clean, it's beautiful. I'm someone, I admit this, I like money. I like being in places that feel classy. I like wearing nice clothes. I like nice things. So going to the temple is the country club of churches. You go in, you see the money, you see like the chandeliers, the carpet, the quality of everything. It's beautiful. If you're like one. I think one of the things that drew me to this church was like their buildings are nice. You know how I said like I would go in and I would feel safe because it's clean, it's well lit, the furniture's nice. Like they feed you snacks, like they

Liz Lambson [01:00:56] have money, they take care of you.

Liz Lambson [01:00:58] That, that reflect on one of the superficial reasons that I married my husband. He's going to make money, he's going to take care of me. This church has money, it's going to take care of me. Go to the temple. It feels nice. You can see the money. So anyway, so you go to the temple for this quote unquote, spiritual feast. But it's also. Just let me go to the country club, have a moment to meditate in the fanciest room that I will have access to, and then look out the window at all the other people who are not. Who are. I mean, if you compare it to a feast, what are they eating down there? Cheerios off the floor, like my kids, or sandwiches. And so, like, you know, just a few months ago, I was at the temple and was like, what a. What a nice experience. It's really lovely, you know, it really is. I had a nice time. And then when I left, I thought, like, I didn't recognize at the time that that was my last time. I didn't know it. And I thought. But I thought about it, like, what would it be like if I left and I never went back to the temple? But then it occurred to me, like, I would. As nice as it is, as lovely as that experience was, if it's not for everyone, it's not for me. If it's not accessible to the least of us, I don't want anything to do with it. I don't care how nice it is. I don't care how good. I feel like I'm gonna go have a picnic on the grass with the others who I love. Yeah, the other you. The rest of you go ahead and have your feast at the top of the tower. That's not for me. That's not where I want to be. As lovely as it is beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:52] Yeah. Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:53] Thank you for that. And again, in 2023, this is still the way it is.

Liz Lambson [01:02:59] That's the way it is.

John Dehlin [01:03:03] Really quickly, I have to go back to a comparison you made between your mom and you. Yeah, Like, I can imagine if there were, like, an observer just observing your life, they would be looking at you like, I'm thinking of, like, the Clarence angel and It's a wonderful Life. He's like, looking at you going, liz, didn't you pay attention to what your mom did? She joined a religious. You know, she joined a high demand religion, became religiously fanatical, and kind of like, abandoned her family. Liz is an early 20 year old. You're kind of following in those footsteps. Don't do it. But yet you. You kind of did. What can you say about your conditioning or your needs or your background that kind of had you follow in footsteps one observer might think you would want to avoid at all costs?

Liz Lambson [01:04:01] Can you tell? I'm like, ready to answer this question. Well, because I thought that the family that I was coming from was the real. Sorry, was not the real family, that I was going to Mormonism so that I could have a real eternal family. So whatever my mom did was not what I wanted to do. I wanted to get married and have children and be together forever and not abandon my children. So in my mind, joining the church and absorbing the family proclamation and what it outlined for what my life should look like and also what my patriarchal blessing outlined for me was like the opposite of what I thought my mom did. And I see and I still feel the effects of that abandonment. And I remember, I think just a few days before I got married, I called my dad crying, saying, I have to know why she left. I never knew. Can you please fill me in? Because I don't want to do the same thing she did. I don't want to. I don't want to end up divorced. I have to know what happened so that I can just, like, avoid making the same mistake.

Liz Lambson [01:05:24] Maybe.

Liz Lambson [01:05:24] Can you just please, like, just tell me the truth? Why did she leave? And that's when I learned about the elements of religion. So it was, it was. I didn't know until, like, very well after I'd already gotten baptized and started going down this path. I didn't know what did happen. Yeah, I didn't know what happened. Yeah, I mean, we had just been told, like, oh, she's going to visit her family. And then she just, like, didn't come back. Like, no explanation.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] So you didn't have the information to fully process.

Liz Lambson [01:05:58] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:59] What happened with your mom?

Liz Lambson [01:06:00] All I knew is, like, I come from a broken family with parents who aren't together. And I see that in Mormonism, families are forever. And that's what I want, a forever happy, happily ever after family. I want the dream, I want the ideal. So that's what I sought after. And, and you know, I have five kids now, and it's so hard. And they're. I, I sympathize with my mom now more than ever. I. I understand how hard, how hard it is to be a parent, but I also understand the consequences, what happens when you leave your kids, when you walk away. So it's like, as hard as it is, like, I do remain committed to my kids and my family because I know what happens when you do walk away. So there is that as well. I mean, religion aside, obligations aside, commandments aside, just from my personal life experience, I feel compelled to be a Committed wife and mother for the sake of my children.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] That product, you can almost call it a product that the Mormon church offers, which is the eternal family. I remember when I was, was a teen and a missionary, there was the video Families are forever or whatever. It's, it's on the one hand so compelling. Who doesn't want to be with their, the partner that they love and their children and their parents forever? So it's such a compelling product. I don't mean to reduce it to a product. Oh no, but it, but it, it's so compelling that vision. And, but, but it's also problematic because even though that's a selling point, there's, there's the dark side of the underbelly of that promise, which is everyone who doesn't get the Mormon conversion and the Mormon ceiling, those families are going to be separated forever. So it makes God, not necessarily this loving God that wants everyone to be with their families forever. It's this God who is going to be separating spouses and children from spouses for 99% of his children for eternity. Because that's what.

Liz Lambson [01:08:35] I don't buy it. I don't buy it.

John Dehlin [01:08:36] But that's what the terrestrial and the

Liz Lambson [01:08:38] telescope I used to.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:39] But not only that though, it isn't just a Mormon non Mormon thing. It's. You can do all the things. You could all be Mormon. You could, you could actually be parents of Mormon children, have done everything you can. And if your child goes off and does, makes decisions, is lgbt, you are also not having a family that lives forever. It's like, it's. And that actually is more common than you know, so the loss, it's false advertising because the majority of people, whether you're in or out, aren't getting it.

Liz Lambson [01:09:17] Yeah, it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:18] But it is the lure, especially with converts, definitely from my parents. But the key part of conversion is that family dream. It's that piece of that basic need of like, can we never be separated ever?

Liz Lambson [01:09:32] It's, it's the happily ever after. I mean for me, like joining, going to young women's activities and suddenly they're like saying that I'm like a queen or like a daughter of God, like a princess. Like that's, there's the Disney, that's the Disney dream. You know what, I'm royalty and I can have like, I can be a queen married to a king and live in a castle. The temple's like the castle, you know, and then have the mansion in heaven. Like, it's just, it's so picturesque. It's so. Oh, Lord. Yeah. But you're saying, like, there was a. And I, you know, I believe this, and this is what I wanted, but there's a moment when I was in the temple across from my husband, and on that, like, you know, cushy altar benchy thing, you know, I was looking at him and I could tell he was just, like, not into it. And I. It had me worried. I was like, oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] Well, the out. The outfits are interesting.

Liz Lambson [01:10:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:39] You're wearing. Describe what the outfits are when you're. When you're kneeling across the altar. You're not in a beautiful wedding dress.

Liz Lambson [01:10:46] I know. I couldn't wear my wedding dress there because it wasn't pure white. So I had just like, a kind of a plain polyester dress. And both my husband and I are wearing, like, like this kind of robey thing with, like, a fluffy thing on the shoulder. And then I've got a veil on, and he's wearing this ridiculous hat. That's what I could tell he.

John Dehlin [01:11:10] Some refer to as a baker's hat.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:12] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:11:12] He did not. Like.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] And you've got the green aprons.

Liz Lambson [01:11:15] Yeah, the aprons, the sashes, the little bow.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:18] There are a lot of accessories. People.

Liz Lambson [01:11:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] And people can Google, like, Mormon temple wedding and see video of the ceremony.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:28] And it's secret to a lot of people, but it's also. It can and still feel disorienting.

Liz Lambson [01:11:34] Yeah. And he was never comfortable wearing all that stuff. And I could tell. Yeah. He was just like, you know, here I am looking like a clown. He was just not into it. And he had told me about. I mean, he had such a traumatic experience when he went through the temple and did initiatories, and people were touching his body, his naked body underneath this, like, shawl thing. The temple was not a comfortable place in his mind. And I could tell that he was not at ease when we're getting married. Like, I have a friend planning her wedding right now for, like, in. Not even within a year. It's like, okay, spring 2024. It's going to be on the beach in Jamaica. Destination wedding. And just, you know, I'm watching her plan this wedding where it's like, you just get to choose the details and create an experience that's comfortable and what you want, like, what. You just create a moment that reflects, like, the beauty of what you're doing and.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] And a celebration for everyone.

Liz Lambson [01:12:47] Yes.

Liz Lambson [01:12:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:48] It's actually fun.

Liz Lambson [01:12:49] Yeah. Yeah. But. Oh, like, what a. What a. Like, I love that idea of, like, Having, like, my bare feet in the sand and, like, being with my partner and, like, being in a place that I chose and just, like, having this, like, a beautiful moment. But you don't get to choose. I didn't even get to wear what I wanted to wear.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:11] Yes. Yeah, I did want to bring up, just because there are parts to your story that I think you've highlighted. One was the try on, I think, for the dress where you talked about where putting on a. Was it a strapless?

Liz Lambson [01:13:27] Yeah, it was a strapless.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:27] And how beautiful you felt and comfortable and just sort of, you know, feeling all the things and the black lace bra and you actually, in moments, having an experience where you're actually connecting with yourself and feeling this sense of desire, having a want or a desire for yourself.

Liz Lambson [01:13:50] Right. Something I wanted.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:51] And it can come in with, you know, pleasuring yourself. It can come in with food. It can come in, you know, in so many little moments that I think of growing up Mormon or in the conditioning process of Mormonism where you actually have a type of, like, you want comfort, so you pleasure or you want. You actually have these. And then you feel this sense of shame afterwards, like, oh, but that's bad. Or, oh, I can't wear that.

Liz Lambson [01:14:22] Or I can't.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:23] And it creates this distrust and this continual sense of, like, you know, where you're doubting yourself and you're always shaming yourself for the things that when you do emerge, which creates all these sort of parts to you that you're like, cramming down in the basement somewhere that you just never want them to come out. And then, you know, you. It's like a. I don't know, it just creates this. Such a disembodied experience.

Liz Lambson [01:14:53] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:53] You know.

Liz Lambson [01:14:54] Yes. And we'll talk more about how this in part four, I think. But when presented with the suggestion to leave the church, I was digging my heels in. And something that I would say is, like, you don't know how much I sacrificed to join this church. How. How I changed my life so that I could become a Mormon. And like, now I'm like, isn't that like. Just listen to what. Listen to what I was saying. Look how much I had to. Look how much of, like, my real self I had to shove down and push away, including, like, you know, me trying to fit into, like, white culture. That was a thing. Like, just look at how much I was sacrificing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:45] To, like, fit in your identity, your.

Liz Lambson [01:15:49] All those things. So it's like, I mean, your. Your. Your Co host John was saying this. Yeah. John Larsen was saying this last night about, you know, why can't Mormons leave it alone? It's because, like, look how Mormonism affects and touches every single aspect of your life.

Liz Lambson [01:16:10] Everything.

Liz Lambson [01:16:11] And so, you know, for me to say, like, well, look how much I had to change to become Mormon, look how much I sacrifice. Look how hard I worked to become Mormon. I know it was making me dig my heels in, but like, once I was able to let it all go, what an amazing feeling to like, kind of like fly through space and like climb into my 13 year old body and be like, you're just fine. Like, like, this is who, who I was and this is who I am. And like, who I was and who I am are back in alignment because it's who I was the whole time. It's just like I was trying to be something else in the interim.

John Dehlin [01:16:55] Yeah. Powerful. Really quickly. Anything you want to say about the actual endowment? Or is. Is that not super noteworthy? No pressure if it's not.

Liz Lambson [01:17:04] I mean, it was, it was. I really liked it. I. I really like something. I. I mean, I. I was drawn to Mormonism. One of the elements is that it's weird and different and I'm weird and different and I, like appreciate the things that are strange. So I was really just like excited to like, see what all the talk was about, like what the endowment was all about. Like hand signs and little phrases and some chanting and like the video, like, I thought it was all really fascinating and intriguing. Like, it's one of those mysterious things that drew me in in the first place was like, there's some, some whack rituals that I know are coming and I'm pretty excited to find out what they are, you know, like, so that kind of showy ritual kind of stuff, those formalities, I think it's really cool, honestly. I see you see that in a lot of cultures and a lot of religions, but Mormonism takes it like, next level. I can't think of any other church that has an endowment ceremony quite like that unless we dive into some cults. But that's one of the things that's kind of, I mean, that makes the church pretty cultish is that there's this ceremony. So I thought I was really honored at the time. Like I said, I was a hardcore believer. So when I was presented with my first pair of garments and got to put them on, and it was really special to me. And I remember that day going back to. I was back at my apartment and me and Sam were just like making out on the couch, like intense make out. And my roommate walked in and she was like, well, that's a great way to celebrate your endowment day, you know, And I was so embarrassed and ashamed because, like, you know, it's like, oh, man. Like, being sexual in any way is incompatible.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:09] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:19:10] You know, it's like I felt, you know, I was literally being shamed on the day of my endowment for, like, just being like, letting some element of the natural man or the natural woman like, escape.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:27] That's right.

Liz Lambson [01:19:28] And show show itself. The monstrous, carnal side of me was still there, despite the garments, despite the cardigan, despite the downy slaying shirt. Sorry, Downy. I don't mean to. Like,

John Dehlin [01:19:45] despite the most sacred Mormon ritual.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:47] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:19:47] And, and it was so much. I, I think in that moment I felt what I did, like the very first time that I can confessed to a bishop in a worthiness interview where it's like, dang it, did I just undo what I just did? You know, like right after my baptism and sinning for the first time? Like, did I just undo what I did? You know, and so there was that moment of reflection too. Like, did I just, like, did I ruin it? Just ruin it?

John Dehlin [01:20:16] Yeah. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:20:19] Gosh. We're still talking about, like marriage and endowment, but we gotta get through the fact that I have five kids.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:20:27] That I'm gonna end up with five kids.

John Dehlin [01:20:28] So you got married and how you did. Did. Where did things go?

Liz Lambson [01:20:32] Oh, you know, one of the worst, One of the worst things that I did. Well, not worst, but a thing that I did. I, I, I've done the young women's recognition thing three times. So I, Because I was in the young women's program.

John Dehlin [01:20:55] And for the non Mormons out there, isn't it kind of like a Boy Scout equivalent where the church had this program where you did a bunch of what they would call girly or womanly things.

Liz Lambson [01:21:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] And if you finished it by the time you were 18, you got a little.

Liz Lambson [01:21:09] Yeah. Medallion.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] Medallion kind of symbolized your achievement of full womanhood or something. Is that right? Did I get it right?

Liz Lambson [01:21:17] Yeah. And so there are like seven values like faith, divine nature, individual worth, choice and accountability, good works, integrity and virtue. And you do, like, little assignments and a project for each of those values. So for one of my value projects, you think Stan's out of the picture? He's not Stan's mom. I still kept in touch. I still keep in touch with Stan's family, his parents. I idolized his mom. Because I wanted to be the next generation of her. I wanted to be her.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:47] Yes.

Liz Lambson [01:21:48] Like she cross stitched Christmas stockings for all her nine children. I've been doing that. I'm not quite done, but I have hand cross stitched these stockings for my kids.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:00] There are some paths, but were still on.

Liz Lambson [01:22:02] Yes, still. I mean, with vigor. So for one of my young women's projects, I happened to be in Colorado Springs visiting my dad and his second wife at the time. And I arranged to sit down with Stan's mom and interview her about how to be a good Mormon mom. And I, and I blogged this. I, I transcribed the entire interview. It's pages and pages and pages. And the interview, the, the entries, it's. I think there are nine parts. It turned into like, as you can see, I have a lot of stories to tell. So anyway, the interview in the published interview is called how to have Nine Children Inside the Big Mormon Family. And here's a picture of one of my babies on the front.

John Dehlin [01:23:03] So that's a book you put together?

Liz Lambson [01:23:05] Yeah, I was blogging and so I have, I mean, I'm a writer, so I've got just like books of my writing. And this is what my journals became essentially like kind of a public journal. But so I sat down and I interviewed Stan's mom about how to be a mom. And I had one baby at the time. And she described to me all the ins and outs of how to manage a home. What was with nine kids? Like the cleaning routines?

Motherhood, Isolation, and Doubts About Church Life

Margi Dehlin [01:23:33] Do you want to share a couple things that stand out to you that. Did you adopt any?

Liz Lambson [01:23:38] Like, did you take so much?

Margi Dehlin [01:23:40] Yes.

Liz Lambson [01:23:41] This became my guide as I started having more children. And then. But what's sad though is it set me up to feel like a constant failure because I had one kid and it was so hard. And I'd be like, but she had nine. Why am I struggling? Then I had two kids and it was even harder. And I was like, but she had nine and she was keeping it together. What's my problem? And then, you know, I end up with five. It's even harder. I had. So let's see. Then I. The twins were 3 and 4. That was Earth shaking, the twins. It was so hard. And again. But it's like, but I only have four. What's my problem? Then I have the fifth one and I'm like, like, it's still not nine. Why am I struggling? What's wrong with me? And I would just compare myself to her in everything. Like how she would do. She would Clean the house from top to bottom every Monday. Monday cleaning, I started doing that for a while. I don't do it anymore. But Monday cleaning and then Tuesday laundry, having everything washed and folded. And then the way that meals were prepared, the family scripture in the morning, the family prayer, the kids going to seminary, just the habits, the traditions, just all the things.

John Dehlin [01:25:02] I remember growing up meeting Mormon families like this, where there were like eight or 10 or 12 kids and the mom did it all. Like, somehow all the kids looked perfect and the meals were perfect and the house was perfectly clean and their marriage looked perfect. That is a thing. And it wasn't every Mormon family, but there was always a couple of them in every ward, it seemed. And it just looked like an Olympic world record kind of family.

Liz Lambson [01:25:35] There's a really important thing to recognize here. She came from a really large family and was one of the older daughters, I think. So she had a lot of experience caring for little kids before she became a mom. She knew what she was getting into. I didn't change a diaper until my 20s. I had no experience with little kids. Like, and. And I. We talked about this earlier about how, like, you know, I picture having a large Mormon family similar to running a marathon. And the. The church. The way the church phrases like, everyone, yes. Is meant to become a parent. A parent. Everyone's gonna. Everyone is meant to do this.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:12] Every. Every, like, woman's body is able. Right. Psychology is able. You know, it just takes so many things for granted about.

Liz Lambson [01:26:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:25] So the complications of what is being asked, right.

Liz Lambson [01:26:29] In the marathon analogy, like, no, not everybody is capable of running 26.2 miles. Some people can do it and actually enjoy the experience, but most people are going to suffer. It's going to be really hard. And some people just can't do it. And, you know, they're. I feel so much like pain and longing in my heart for the moms who are. Or mothers or fathers or parents who are struggling to raise their kids. Kids to the point where they don't even have the money to feed their children or. Or don't have the. The mental health in place to not harm their children. Exactly. Like their children suffering because their parents really believed that God would give them the strength to be a perfect parent. And they're not. They think it was their calling in life to become a parent. And then. And their children are suffering because they are struggling to do it. It's like sending people to run the marathon who haven't eaten the day before or something. Like there's. Or they have a broken leg, but you're supposed to finish the race, and you're supposed to do it, and it's really hard. Especially, I don't know very many Mormon parents who will, like, put their kids in foster care, like, because I think there's sort of this God complex, like, where it's like, well, I was given these spirit children. They are mine, and I was meant to be theirs. Like, I'm meant to be their parent. Like, God's gonna make me the best parent for this person. And that's not necessarily true.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:27] Yeah. You know, another big thing with, when you have a lot of children, it's just privilege to be able to write whiteness. If the breadwinner is white, who grew up, you know, with a level of stability in their life and had college and all those opportunities. And that's a really different. We're looking at a really different playbook.

Liz Lambson [01:28:51] So, you know, who else had nine kids was one of my first cousins, who I didn't meet until after I was married, but he had nine or 10, probably more kids with five or six different women. And this is the black side of my family that my dad didn't want us to associate with. You know, this cousin had, like, a bullet in his body somewhere. Was living with his mom, my dad's sister. Really had a very hard life, I think, was always trying to keep a bit of money on hand for if he needed to pay for an abortion for one of these women. Just was, like, addicted to sex. Sam and I talked to him like, you could get a vasectomy. I can't believe the church discourages vasectomy and birth control. They still like, what is it with the church health insurance policy? They won't. It's. I, I, I was reading something about this. Like, they won't cover a vasectomy unless you've already had five kids. It's like there's like a, a number, like, a number associated with, like, the healthcare options that's like, I don't like to use the phrase mind blowing, but that's just the phrase that's coming to mind right now. But yeah, so we're, like, trying to talk my cousin into having a vasectomy because he just keeps having babies with all these different women. And so, you know, there's an example of, of childbearing in a different setting. And unfortunately, he passed away. I'm trying to remember what it was. Maybe a sudden stroke or something. So he left all these kids behind. And Sam and I actually considered adopting one of them, but that youngest one is doing okay. I think he's with the mother's mother. Oh. Because his mom was killed in a fight. So that one kid was completely orphaned. And the only thing my cousin was able to do for all these kids, he said he would try to buy each of them a pair of shoes every year. That's the most he was able to pull off, anyway.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:00] So when you're talking about motherhood, I'm hearing a lot of comparing. Yes, you kind of your nest, which makes sense, because, you know, we all need a blueprint of some type. Right. And many of us had childhoods where there may not have been a natural blueprint. We got kind of what not to do, which is very different from, like, what you want it to feel like and to look like. And it sounds like, you know, you kind of got that through her. But then it became this comparison trap.

Liz Lambson [01:31:36] Yeah, constantly.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:37] And so constantly. How else would you describe your journey of mothering and trying to kind of. What would I say? Move into this role, this Mormon woman role?

Liz Lambson [01:31:51] Oh, gosh, there's so much. There's so much. I mean, I had my. I mean, I was gonna point this out, like, the moment when I got married and moved in, even before we had kids, I really took on, like, the. I am now a Mormon housewife. My husband works in the office. I am at home, and I will wash all and do all the laundry. I will fold his garments neatly. I will put them in the drawers. I will make dinner. Dinner hot. Dinner will be ready when he comes home from work.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:24] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:32:24] Yep. And so I cooked and cleaned. And even before having kids, like, I was really, like, taking on the Persona, like, because that's what I chose. That's what I chose to do. I'm. I wasn't the hippie artist on the road with my guitar and my convertible. I wasn't, like, I had a convertible at the time. And my. I didn't even get to bring it with me that first summer. And so I had my first baby. And, like, the postpartum depression afterwards and during was so severe. And I had an opportunity came up for me to a job. Opportunity came up just, like, miraculously for me to work in a violin shop. I had worked at byu. I had worked in the instrument office as the string. The string instrument person tech. So I started learning some very basic, like, string instrument repair during that time. And so someone found out that I had some luthier experience and was on, like, hey, there's a job opening for a luthier at this violin Shop. Are you interested? And I was like, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. Like, there's no way I cannot apply an interview for this position. Like, I have some experience. I'm really passionate about this. Like Luthery, making string instruments, violins. That really brings together two of my major passions, which is classical music and making things with my hands. Art, making visual art. It brings those two things together. You like the craftsmanship of making an instrument that is also like a classical instrument. Just like it's this great love that I have. So I took that job, I got the job, and I put my one first baby in the daycare across the street. And just. I felt so. I mean, that's when mom guilt came. Came into play. And I still have it. Mom guilt. Like, I try to work, I try to do my art.

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Why would a Mormon mom feel mom guilt for having a job? Explain that to the non. Nevermore.

Liz Lambson [01:34:52] Oh my goodness. Do we need to pull up the family proclamation? It says there's a line in there about like the. The men being the providers. And then. But it's like only in special circumstances. Like if someone dies or there's. It's. It's like death or disability or like other circumstances that the women can step in and become a provider. I mean, that's. It's just spelled out like that.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] It's kind of part of the doctor's job is to nurture, to raise and nurture the children. That's her primary role, to take care of the home. And it's the husband's job primarily to provide.

Liz Lambson [01:35:31] Yeah, yeah. I saw like a graphic that. And this was for another conservative religion, but it kind of embodied this concept that I think is reflected in Mormonism. But it's like God rains down the rain and the man is like the umbrella who protects and absorbs the sunlight and the rain from God. And then the woman and the children are underneath the umbrella. And then the man can disseminate what he receives from God to the women and children under the umbrella. And that's just the structure that I bought into here.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] I've got the proclamation up.

Liz Lambson [01:36:21] I'll just show you.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] By, by. This is called a family of proclamation to the world. I think it's put out by the Mormon Church First Presidency. I want to say 95ish.

Liz Lambson [01:36:31] But it was framed on the walls of the families that I. That I converted Me.

John Dehlin [01:36:38] Yeah. This is just an excerpt. The family is ordained of God. Marriage between a man and a woman is essential to his eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. And here's the gendered part. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness. So dads are in charge and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for the family. So they're making the money and they're protecting the family. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:43] Hurts.

Liz Lambson [01:37:44] It hurts. Keep going.

John Dehlin [01:37:45] Why does that hurt? No, we can stop. Why does that hurt?

Liz Lambson [01:37:48] No, no,

John Dehlin [01:37:51] it hurts. About that. We've never really talked about the proclamation on Mormon stories in this way.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:57] Not in this way.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] Why does it hurt?

Liz Lambson [01:38:00] Because, like, I mean, we might get into this later. I mean, gender. I'm not the most feminine female I've always known that we might get into, like, how I understand, how I've come to understand my own gender identity. But like to prescribe, to prescribe those roles. Just barf. Like, okay, that's all like barf, vomit reaction. That's how I'm feeling right now. But, but like, I have five sons and a husband. I'm the only biologically assigned female at birth person in my household. And already the young children are like, well, moms clean, moms do this, moms cook things. Yeah. And then like when I did start working and had by my second kid, that's when we had our first nanny. I have a nanny right now. But the nannies have been also been female. So then they're like, okay, well, if mom's not available, there's still a woman who comes in and does the cooking and cleaning and laundry. And so they see I am. So that's one of my biggest worries is that I'm perpetuating this stereotypical, this, this stereotyped housewife woman role. Like this kind of work is only for women when I know plenty of men who are not plenty, but some who are the stay at home dads. Like, it's not, it's not a.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:57] An amazing nurturer.

Liz Lambson [01:39:59] Yeah. And honestly, like, in a lot of ways I feel like my husband's better with little kids than I am. We've talked about, like, wouldn't it be great to like switch roles? But it's always come down to money. Like, he makes More money than I do. Like, I'm an artist, I'm a musician. Like, unless I have some huge break. And we keep hoping like he's. It's just like, I just feel kind of stuck in the.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:30] It's another box.

Liz Lambson [01:40:32] Yeah. And. But we're now at a point where, like, I'm able to do more art. We can afford the nanny more than we could in the past. So there's a good balance right now. But. But still, I mean, like, when my Ballet west audition opportunity came up, I had just had the twins. They were infants and I was like, oh my gosh, like, a bass spot opened up. I had been subbing with Ballet west and was like, this is my chance to like, get a core spot.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] This is four kids in.

Liz Lambson [01:41:15] This is four kids in.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:16] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:41:19] And like the. Just the opportunities for like a consistent like classical music performance job are very rare. The competition especially for like the, like Utah Symphony or like the, the big top orchestras, people fly in from all over the world to take those auditions. The competition level there is even higher. So like, so Bally west is like a local company. They hire locally. I didn't think any. It's a part time job, which is great for someone with lots of kids like me. So it was like just like the perfect orchestra job opening. And I knew like, if I am gonna have a chance at winning an audition, I have to practice my butt off. So I put my little twins. We called it the baby zoo. I gated off. We gated off the living room so they could just be in the living room and they were just on their own in the zoo. And I would be in the dining room next to them and I'd just practice and practice for hours and hours. And I also, at the time, there was a woman in my ward who knew how hard having twins or just she saw how hard it was and she offered as an act of service to come over for five hours a week and help me with anything I needed. Help with laundry, cleaning, if I needed to take a nap, if I needed to go exercise, whatever. And that was. And then we ended up hiring her to be our first nanny for. It'd been a while since we'd had a nanny, so. And then. But then there were the. There were ladies at church who were like talking smack about me and her and, and saying like, doesn't Liz know she just had the twins? Why. Why is she having like. And what is she doing? Like practicing, like trying to get a job right now with infant twins. People were questioning like, like doesn't she know she should be home? Why is she playing her bass with a nanny? Like, what is she doing? But, like, I won a seat, I did well, and I got a spot. And, like, I cherish that. Like, I love what I do. And I know, and I worked really hard to get that spot. But, yeah, I'm not, I'm not like a. I am a working mom is what it is.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] And even in 2023, when a Mormon mom takes on a professional, you know, job opportunity, it reminds me of kind of the sexual shame and the masturbation guilt. It's just another layer of inadequacy and guilt and shame that I. I'm hearing that you. That you layer on. Is that right?

Liz Lambson [01:44:25] Totally. Like, I'm like, I'm a really good cook and I used to like doing it, but after having my kids throw my food on the floor so many times, it's actually become like, I've. I actually, I really do think I have, like, clinical level PTSD associated with cooking for children. Because when I, like, I get extreme, extreme anxiety around the act of preparing food for kids, especially cooking from scratch, because it's so much time. And then the moment somebody complains or dumps it on the floor or spits it out, like, I have, like, a very intense reaction. That's so, like, long story short, like, like, we eat a lot of takeout, and in Mormon culture, that's not like,

John Dehlin [01:45:22] it's not the way.

Liz Lambson [01:45:24] No, it's not the way.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] As Mandalorian would say, this is not the way.

Liz Lambson [01:45:29] Yeah, I mean, when there was this really interesting period when I had two kids between the second and then the we have the older kids and then the five year gap, because I really wasn't sure about having any more. Sam talked me into having a third that turned into twins, and then number five was an accident, but sort of, because I always wanted a girl. And I'm also ashamed of the fact that I wanted, like, that I had any preference about gender. I'm ashamed of that. But anyway, so the fifth one was the try for the girl, and he's a boy, but I don't think all of my boys are especially masculine. And I'm excited about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:11] Gender fluidity.

Liz Lambson [01:46:13] Yeah. I have one who I am really excited. He likes shopping with me. He likes smelling perfumey soaps with me. He likes pretty things. He wants me to teach him how to knit. Like, it's great. Yay.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:28] Yay to fully embodied humans.

Liz Lambson [01:46:30] Oh, I just, I'm so excited. But anyway, when I had Two kids. I lived in, like, a Mormon commune. Sam was at business school at Cornell in Ithaca, New York. I had to leave my violin shop job devastating every time we moved so that I could follow my husband's career and schooling because he made more money and, like, why would we ever stay somewhere where I had a measly job that didn't bring in very much money, like Ivy League business school or like, Dinky violin shop? Like, obviously, we're going to choose to go, like, on the path that leads to more money, money, money, money, money. So in Ithaca, there's an apartment complex where the Mormon families live. It's really an exceptional, unusual. It's. It's very much like the BYU married housing, but in. In New New York. So we moved in. And so I'm surrounded by the wives of their husbands are in. In graduate school. And then most of them had, like, two. One or two or three young children. We're all in kind of the same boat. And I remember living directly across the hall from a little Mormon family. Her kids, she had two boys that they were the age of my, my. But, like, they were so. They were so orthodox and devout. They did all the things with the scripture study, the family home evening. She cooked from scratch every night, these amazing, healthy meals. I would just smell what she was cooking from across the hall, but she was doing the same for me. She'd be like, oh, my gosh, Liz does this and this and this. And so we were both, like, comparing ourselves to each other. Not just this, but there was another couple upstairs. There's another couple or little Mormon family upstairs. Little Mormon family beneath us in the basement. Like, it was just this, like, a terrible time where all of us were comparing ourselves to each other. And I remember one time I made, like, these from scratch buttermilk biscuits in the shape of, like, dog bones for my son to take to preschool for this, like, a special pet day or something. And. And then one of my kids, like, accidentally stepped on the pan of biscuits and crushed them, and I was so upset. And then my neighbor across the hall, she was like, what is it called when you take joy in someone else's schadenfreude? Yes, when you take pleasure in someone else's pain. And she was, like, secretly, like, happy that that had happened to me because she saw me as, like, a perfect mom and was, like, relieved to see when something didn't go perfectly for me. And, like, I felt the same way when I noticed her failures as well. It was, like, comforting to me. And there was One time, I remember her, like, running into her. Our front doors faced each other, so we, like, ran into each other at the front doors, and she was leaving to go on a run, and it was like, nighttime, and I was like, where are you going? She's like, I just. I just have to get away. Like, I don't know how far, I don't know where, but I just have to run away. Like, she just. She physically had to run away because it was so hard. And there was just this moment where she showed me her humanity, that even for her, it was so hard. She just. She just put on her shoes and just ran off into the night. Night. She came back. But.

John Dehlin [01:50:22] And from a Mormon woman and mother perspective, what was going on there? If you had to describe it kind of at a higher level, just perfectionism, competitiveness, standards. What. What dynamic are you kind of speaking to if you.

Liz Lambson [01:50:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:38] Were to put words.

Liz Lambson [01:50:38] I mean, it's. It was like. It's like a. It's like a circus or a talent show. And it goes back to this interview with Stan's mom, where it's like you see some similarities in the way people are doing things and you. And it. And it. It appears that there is a way, like, that there is an ideal, that there's. And perhaps it's cultural. People talk about, like, culture, the culture of the church versus the doctrine of the church, when you can't divide them so cleanly. Anyway, it was just

Liz Lambson [01:51:29] one of those

Liz Lambson [01:51:29] times where the comparisons were just in your face all the time. It's really hard because all of us are. I mean, all of us were struggling. It was hard. It's hard to have little kids. It's hard to have toddlers. And so, of course, we're like. We're always asking each other, like, well, what are you cooking this week? What's on your. You know, some of them had chalkboards with the menu of the week. I was not that organized. Some of them would do, like, these picnics. Like, they'd put a blanket down and their kids would have a picnic, like a chicken nugget picnic. And it was a way to, like, make the meal fun. Or like, oh, let's do, like, an orange dinner where you have, like, carrots. Carrots and chicken nuggets and Mac and cheese and things are color coordinated. And just like. Like, we're sharing ideas on, like, how. Just, like, ways to parent. And when you're sharing ideas of, like, how to do the thing, whether it's parenthood or how to be a good Mormon, when How to do it. Well, it's really hard not to internalize what someone's saying about how you should live as, like, the right way. I think what's unique, what's coming to mind, what's unique about one of the things I liked about Mormonism, what's kind of weird is that it's a lay church. Is that the right term where like, the average Joe, Joe Smith, the average Joe can, Can go up and speak on Sundays. Like it, like just people from the congregation speak, testimony meetings or for the Sunday talks. The sermons are just by normal people. And so like, anyone can go up from week to week or from day to day and share what they feel is. Is God's counsel or the revelation that they've received showing them the right way to live. And then from the pulpit, you have just average people sharing with the other congregants their best advice. They won't call it advice, but. But essentially offering different prescriptions on, like, how to live the best life. And then I just found that the more time, the more years that passed as, as a Mormon, it's just more and more prescriptions that are slightly different. And initially when I was converting, I thought I was. It was explained to me that, you know, I, I always loved the concept of personal revelation. And I was like, well, well, how, how is this going to work? What if one person hears, receives a revelation that contradicts someone else's? Like, you'll see at byu, someone gets a revelation that you're the, you're my eternal companion. But what if the other person's like, no, I didn't receive the same revelation? Like, how do you deal with those contradictions when the revelations aren't lining up? But it was explained to me when I was a teenager that, like, God won't give revelations that contradict like, he just won't like. And you trust the hierarchy, so the father in the home will receive revelation for the family. And then you've got the bishop and you've got the general authorities and the. You have the prophet and the prophet Roshi revelation of the whole church. It doesn't leave a lot of room for your personal revelation to trump. I hate that word. Well, to trump. Any of the override. Yeah, override any of the revelation that's received in the levels above you. So you're left with kind of very few choices. But that's one of the big issues is that the more time, the more years that have passed, I have seen and observed and heard so many contradictory revelations that it's no longer. I'm no longer able to explain or sift or organize them in a way that makes sense. And then in the end, I received my own personal revelation to leave. And. And how do you, you know, from an outside perspective, how do you make sense of that? How can God tell you that that's the path? How does that work? And yet it does.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:32] Can we go back really quickly to the mother strapping on her shoes and needing to. Because that time that you're describing of kind of being in close proximity with moms, like Mormon moms, I just. As you were kind of relaying that experience, a lot of things came up for me because I was thinking about how in the church, and let's just break it down into, particularly with roles, with this idea of really defined roles. It can feel really lonely as a new mom. It's. It can feel very isolating. So what happens? And I remember this, this is. You do this natural thing of. You try to reach out. Yeah. And you are asking, you're like, okay, so what dinners are you making? Or what do you do in this situation? Or. And it's this. It's this attempt to get connection. It's like an attempt for help, for support, for connection. But what's hard is when the overlay is performance, when the overlay is perfectionism, what happens is you compare.

Liz Lambson [01:57:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:49] So whatever is incoming, it becomes kind of if. If it's not a strong suit of yours or you're not, and believe me, like, inevitably someone you talk to is

Liz Lambson [01:58:00] better at it than you.

Liz Lambson [01:58:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:02] Or seems to be better at it. And you wouldn't know because when it's performative and perfectionism and this is the way you have worthiness in a system, people aren't tight telling. Because part of the prescription in the role is that it be easy, that it look easy, that it look innate to you, because if it doesn't, that's on you. That's actually a deficiency in you. So it creates this whole trapped scenario where you're lonely, you're trying to get connection, but you can't get it because perfectionism is like a shield. It actually makes.

Liz Lambson [01:58:34] You can't show all your cards right.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:37] And so it becomes this highly combustible place where. Where you can't get your needs met. You know what I mean? And no matter what you try, the basic ways that you try to get support don't work in this way. And so it just reinforces this sense of shame and inadequacy because no matter how much effort you're giving. It's never quite the ideal, or you're up against someone in your wardrobe who's doing it better and makes it look easy, because they're all trying to make it look easy because that's the way they get worth, and that's the way they're on the right path. And it's just incredibly isolating and degrading.

Liz Lambson [01:59:22] I know.

Liz Lambson [01:59:22] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:23] To women in. In that situation. So as you were talking about that, I was just so feeling those moments of, like, strapping up your shoes and I got to get out of here.

Liz Lambson [01:59:35] Here.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:35] I gotta just have a moment. I'd be surprised for a lot of Mormon moms if there aren't moments where they can absolutely go back to, even if they didn't strap on the symbolic shoes, where they needed something. You know, even my mom, I remember, shared, kind of when your dad got home, I had to. I was out of there. Or, you know, it's so relatable.

John Dehlin [01:59:58] Meaning she would just hand the kids

Margi Dehlin [02:00:00] off to him, to my dad, so

Liz Lambson [02:00:01] that he could take like, I gotta have a moment. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:04] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:00:05] And I mean, for my own mom, she needed a moment, and that moment lasted a lifetime. Yep. It lasted for the rest of her life.

John Dehlin [02:00:15] She's never come back.

Liz Lambson [02:00:15] I get it. Yeah. I get it.

John Dehlin [02:00:20] Yeah. Part of it is just that not all women end up feeling as comfortable as moms and. Or as moms of several children. Children. And not all Mormon women feel fulfilled or enjoyment in motherhood. And many don't feel whole or complete unless they have some sort of professional.

Liz Lambson [02:00:48] I don't. That's me to a T. I mean, at this period of time in Ithaca, when we were in that Mormon family commune, of all the women, I was the one who used babysitting the most. And I felt guilty about that. Like, especially when you're a student and you're spending money on babysitting. But I had this really cool opportunity to apprentice with a luthier and started building my first violin. I haven't finished it, but I started building my first violin from scratch. And it was an amazing opportunity, and I couldn't do it without childcare. People are always like, liz, how do

Liz Lambson [02:01:27] you do all this stuff? Like, how'd you. You wrote a book and you play in the orchestra and you do all this stuff.

Liz Lambson [02:01:34] You're acting. And I'm like, dude, I have a nanny. Like, I wouldn't be able to do any of this without childcare. That's the. That's the piece that people aren't seeing. And maybe they don't want to see it. Maybe they don't because, like, there's so many women specifically, who are like, man, Liz, you accomplished so much. How do you do it? And I'm like, well, can I ask. Like, I'll flip it. Can I ask you how. How many hours of childcare a week do you have so that you can do the things that you like to do, whether or not you're being paid to do those things or not? I mean, I've become. I think one of the ways that I've become, like, a professional musician or artist is there was a point where I had to say, because I have children and I have to afford childcare, I cannot work for free. Free. I cannot play music for free. I can't make art for free. Like, the. In the. In the church community, people expect you to make music for free. Like, play on Sunday, play in the orchestra at Temple Square, and don't get paid. Tour with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir with no compensation, even if you're leaving your kids at home.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:44] Like, such an important point. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:02:46] Like, I. I mean, I toured. I think I had kids when I went on a tour. Like, so there's a cost? No, just like a one in the States.

John Dehlin [02:02:57] Okay. National tour.

Liz Lambson [02:02:58] But, like, you know, there are times. I mean, when you have kids, time is money. Like, I don't almost. My. You know, honestly, my entire paycheck from playing with the ballet goes to childcare. That's just how it is. I can't work for. I cannot play music for free. I can't paint stuff for people for free. I kind of wish I could. And unfortunately, like, that's made it so that I rarely do things like that for myself. Like, I don't have a painting in our house for just our family. Like, I haven't taken the time to do that. But I'll do a commission for somebody else or, like, I'll sing the occasional lullaby to my kids. But how often do I, like, perform music for my family? Not almost never, but I'll play for somebody else if I get paid.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:53] That's interesting.

Liz Lambson [02:03:55] So, anyway, I mean, I do feel lucky that there's at least there's a movement of funding that allows for a nanny to even be in my life. But I know that there are many, many, many women who cannot afford. Not just women, many families. Families that can't afford child care. And so that limits the opportunities that the adults have. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:20] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:04:20] It's the way it is. So hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:23] So hard.

Liz Lambson [02:04:24] But, you know, going back to this Ithaca period, you know, I. I wasn't getting paid to do this apprenticeship, so it was easy to just be like, what's up with Liz? How are they spending money on this much babysitting so that she can go like. Like play with wood, go to a wood shop, work on a violin. For what purpose? You know, and, oh, there. At this point in time, this was the second time. There are two times when I've been accepted to a school, a program, and I've turned it down. So before we had kids, I was accepted to a creative writing MFA and didn't take. And part of it was, it always comes down to, like, money. Well, can you make money with a creative writing mfa? How are you going to pay for it? Turned it down. And then I started having kids. Okay. Then I got accepted to the Violin Making School of America in Salt Lake City. But. And there was, like, a possibility that maybe after business school my husband would get a job here. But he didn't at that time. Now we're here. And why am I not at the school? Because we had three more kids. So anyway, I got accepted to this school, and I had some Mormon women tell me, like, Liz, like, you've chosen your path in life. You're a mom. Like, if you go to school, that might keep you from having more kids. You need to support your husband's career. He's in business school. This makes no sense for you to try to go to school when he's just finishing school. Like, he's gonna. You have to respect that he's investing in his future profession. You have to support that. You've made your choice already. Like, and I was told I was being selfish and spoiled and bipolar for having this intense creative desire to go back to school. And. And I. And I didn't. I didn't go. I was convinced by the voices that. And they weren't my place. Yeah. These are women telling me this, which

Margi Dehlin [02:06:39] is so how I think it oftentimes plays out.

Liz Lambson [02:06:42] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:43] That women are oftentimes the. What, the curators or the. To patriarchy. We also. We reinforce. Yeah. Well, especially in a different. In a way that is more. It can feel more insidious and personal than men because it's like a fellow

Liz Lambson [02:07:04] woman being like, there's the previous generation of women. This is coming from the older women, and this is something that I've noticed where the older women who have had their kids and they have grandkids now, it's like they just. They just watch the. The next generation of women having babies and they see them suffering and they see them feeling trapped or boxed up or whatever, but then they're like. Because that's what they experienced when they were young mothers. They are like, they're just like, it's your turn now. That's just how it goes. It's like they don't want to step in and, and help you overcome these challenging circumstances. They just will say, like, they'll just say like, well, I had nine kids. Kids. You have three or four or five. Like I had nine. Which in a way is just sort

Margi Dehlin [02:07:56] of like, I suffered. So suffering is yours.

Liz Lambson [02:07:59] Yeah. They're just like this. It's your turn, it's your turn.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:02] Let's just pass it down.

Liz Lambson [02:08:04] Yeah, it's just what women do. It's your turn. And they just watch. They just watch you suffer. And then they reflect on their own past suffering and just, you know what does it go back to the story of Adam and Eve that Eve, like, toiled. What is the line?

John Dehlin [02:08:21] Thorns and thistles and noxious weeds. That, that Eve, you know, convinced Adam to particular the apple.

Liz Lambson [02:08:30] Well, well, well, the bit about her, like, bearing children in pain.

John Dehlin [02:08:33] Oh, right.

Liz Lambson [02:08:34] Like there's something about Eve. Eve is supposed to be in pain. It's just part of the woman's job, the women's plight, the women. From the beginning, it was the woman who suffers in childbirth and carries the weight of the babies in the womb.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:53] Well, I'm sorry in those moments that you weren't actually celebrated for tending to yourself, to, you know, actually giving yourself some time and space for your identity.

Liz Lambson [02:09:08] I mean, I would be remiss to not recognize the people who have always praised me for that, who say, who admire me for going after my dreams. Who is that a lot of. I mean, you know, who was the greatest champion of my creativity was my dad. He, anytime I mentioned some fantastical dream, some big dream to him, he'd be like, you can absolutely, absolutely you. I know you. I know your creative spirit. I know you can. You could do that.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:41] Wow.

Liz Lambson [02:09:41] But I'd say that to Mormon mothers or others who don't know me so well, and they'd be like, that sounds a little out of reach. So for me to say, like, I want to be an actress. I'm going to be an actress at this point in my life. This was last year. I want to be an actress. And people who don't know me might be like, that's kind of far fetched. But the people who know me well know that I'm gonna do it. I'M actually gonna do it. So I've been doing that.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:18] Beautiful.

Liz Lambson [02:10:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:21] Okay. So there's this Ithaca period. You know, the kind of overriding themes for this episode are, are marriage and motherhood. What are the other. Let's see, marriage moves and maternity. What are some of the other key Mormon stories in this part three that you want to make sure get included before we talk about move to part four, which is your reconstruction.

Liz Lambson [02:10:51] So, yeah, there's the fact that I had opportunities for higher education that I turned down. There were some things that developed I want to talk about real quick, just two kind of major job opportunities that presented themselves that challenged the idea of me totally being a stay at home mom. So when I got married and fell into this housewife role, there were two things that happened immediately that were disconcerting. I stopped writing in my journal and I stopped writing music. It's like I felt like I couldn't. It was that thing about, like, can I be an artist and a mom at the same time? I've always struggled with that. I finally had this idea, it was the alter ego, Lizzy Luna to become like a children's musician. I was like, what about that? So I wrote. I wrote a whole bunch of songs. I put out an album of children's music, and I created this program called Yoga Storytime and Song Songs. This was in Kansas City after business school. And it was a way that I could write music but also involve my children. So, like, I could. I could be an artist and a mom at the same time through this Persona. I wasn't yet comfortable. I don't think it's a coincidence that I've finally been able to write my. My first song as myself. Post just around my resignation, which we'll get to. But so I created this program and it was immediately, like, embraced by the community in Kansas City. And I was working on this deal with this organization that would pay me to take my program through the schools in the school district. Like it was going to be a job. And then two things happened simultaneously. I was like doing a children's yoga training in Florida, and then my husband informed me that he got a job opportunity in Salt Lake City. And I was devastated because I was just getting this deal to do my program in the Kansas City school district districts and I was getting my children's yoga certification like in, like, when I was being told this news. So I was super upset. And then. And then at the same time, my husband kind of talked me into, like, having a third kid. And I remember this conversation where he was like, mental health, depression, these were all big things. And he was like, listen, if the factor, if the deciding factor is like, like if. If what would allow us to have another kid is like having daycare or nanny or house cleaning or whatever it is, you need to have the support that you need to like, bring another life into the picture. Like, I'm totally down with that. Isn't he great? So I was like, okay, all right, we'll. We'll do one more. And then I. The week, the week we moved, the week of our move to Salt Lake City, I went to an ultrasound appointment. The 20 week checkup, just anatomy scan. I had already knew I was having another boy because I did the blood test. The ultrasound tech was like, you've had an ultrasound before? And I was like, yeah. And I was referring to like previous pregnancies, but I hadn't yet for that pregnancy. And she's like, so you know, there are two. And we're like, two, Two what? Arms, legs? She's like, two babies. And we're like, what? Like, we found out we were having twins more than halfway through the pregnancy at the 20 week.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:50] Wow.

Liz Lambson [02:14:51] Ultrasound. So two weeks after we moved into her house in Salt Lake City, the twins were born. And then about two years later, boy number five joined the team. And I've been absolutely in over my head. It makes people sad when I say this, but I don't know if it's true or not, but I often just think anyway, and sometimes say it out loud that, like, I don't know if I was cut out for this. I'm one of those people where like, like, it's not coming supernaturally to me. And that's why there are many reasons why I work part time is in doing all of the creative things that I do. Part of that is because that's who I am. And I cannot not create things. I'm a creative person and I will literally lose my mind if I don't keep that part of my brain working. I think I. In my. The very first episode, I mentioned that, like, these storms brew in my mind and it has to rain. It just has to rain. So the things that I'm imagining have to become real. They have to come outside of my head or I start collapsing internally. But also, like, I've had these great nannies and then my husband's a great example of like, people who are just like, really good with kids.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:26] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:16:28] I'm finding I'm getting into an interesting phase where like my 12 year old and I, I feel really good with like teens and like so my 12 year old and I are like, yeah, two peas in a pod. We are like really connecting at this age. But like the little, like the toddlers, it's really, really hard for me. Like the messes, the noise, the noise. Like I think about the mom in Pride and Prejudice who's always like, my nerves, my nerves. That's like totally me. We're like, it's so loud.

Liz Lambson [02:17:01] It's so loud.

Liz Lambson [02:17:02] They're screaming, they're throwing, they're breaking things, they're moving, they're throwing furniture. Yeah, they're. The three year old broke our TV this week. The twins broke two TVs. The oldest broke one TV. And so it's just natural. And it's the youngest turn to break the, the biggest TV we've had. Just like, it's just constant, like the bleeding, the fighting, the yelling, the shouting. There's all the good. There's the wonderful things to the laughter, the snuggles. I love, like, I love my, I love sharing my bed with my kids. My littles. At least one or two of them will crawl into our bed every night. They're of course, those wonderful, beautiful things. But it's sort of like again, the marathon analogy where like. Yeah, there are those moments. There's that moment, those moments of triumph, like when you cross the finish line and they take your picture and you're like, you did it. Every day feels like a marathon with as many kids as we have. But there are those moments you don't see, like where the marathon runner is like vomiting in the grass on the roadside because their body's like shutting down and that kind of thing. You know, you don't see those pictures in the Sports Illustrated magazine.

John Dehlin [02:18:19] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:18:19] Alongside the swimsuit models.

John Dehlin [02:18:21] Yeah. Really quick. There's something that I, I want to kind of tease out what feels very Mormon or familiar to me. Margi and I were kind of smiling at each other off camera. One of the very Mormon elements of your story that felt very familiar to me is this dynamic of the husband. Is the wife have the. The Mormon mother having a sense for how many kids kind of feels right to her, but then the husband wanting more than whatever that number is.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:55] And doing whatever he can to persuade her to have more kids than what she feels might be right for her.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:03] Margi and I had that exact experience. Really, Margi, did you. Is that one of the reasons you were smiling? Smiling?

Margi Dehlin [02:19:09] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:19:10] When the husband's like, I want to have more and the mom's like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:19:15] And it's not the husband that has to, is gonna, the Mormon husband that's going to be home with those, you know, babies and two and three year olds. He's going to be at work, traveling internationally, feeling super fulfilled and gaining new skills and having all these opportunities. And it's going to be the mom that may want to have a professional career, may want to go do graduate school, may want to have some enriching life experiences comparable to what the husband is experiencing, but no, you're going to have a few more kids.

Liz Lambson [02:19:46] Yeah, that.

John Dehlin [02:19:48] That felt familiar.

Liz Lambson [02:19:48] Kind of puts off. I mean, yeah, like we've been waiting for the littles to go to elementary school. We're not there yet. We've got two in pre K and one in, in who's not in school at all. He's like the baby, he's just potty training. Like he's just barely getting out of diapers.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:10] Like boot camp.

Liz Lambson [02:20:11] Yeah, we're, we're barely getting out of the diaper phase. So there's always been the talk of like, well, when all the kids are in school, you'll be able to do more. But I just couldn't wait that long. That's why we've got a nanny. I just couldn't, I couldn't wait to.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:25] I think I love the idea of support.

Liz Lambson [02:20:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:28] Recognizing and having a team.

Liz Lambson [02:20:30] So I, and it's, it's so like again, I just have this like longing and desire. I wish that more. I, I know that there are women and, and men, their parents who are struggling to just make ends meet, struggling to just keep people fed. Like I have so much going for me. Like my husband's got this stable job, we have our health, we've got a nice comfortable home. We have all this stuff going for us. And even for us, it seems almost impossible. How are people doing it who don't have financial stability, who don't have their health, who have more kids than they can afford or psychologically handle? How are they doing the impossible? We feel like it's impossible and we have so much going for us. It just, yeah, you don't know what's happening behind closed doors. There's a lot that's going down and occasionally there are the blips. Like we saw that the whole family murdered in that Mormon family murdered recently. And the, and the people are like, we had no idea that this dad. Dad was, had this in him, that he was capable. You know, we had no idea. Like, how could this happen? To this beautiful Mormon family, you know, but it's like. And look how much they had going for them. Nice house, nice clothes, cute family pictures. What about the people that don't even have those basics? They're trying to. To do it successfully.

John Dehlin [02:22:15] Yeah. And what I've noticed during my time in Utah is an almost epidemic of depression. Mormon mother depression, Mormon mother anxiety, Mormon mother perfectionism, Mormon mother subscriptions to, you know, antidepressants. Kind of an epidemic of depression amongst Mormon women.

Liz Lambson [02:22:41] Like, the amount of makeup and plastic surgery in ut, you know, it's trying to, like, just trying to be the ideal failing.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:53] And I think it's one thing to have an ideal and to kind of set out, you know, all these expectations or, you know, whatever requirements for women in particular in this role. It's another thing to have all that, have all those expectations and then make, make the, you know, the consequences so grave to make the responsibility like where a woman and her role and how she shows up in the family basically is tied to her family's salvation. Like, that's next level. You know, the expectations are one thing.

Liz Lambson [02:23:38] Thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:38] It's another thing if what's really kind of being said is like, and if your kids don't get there, you don't have an eternal family and you're to blame. Yeah, that I just feel like, no wonder. I mean, no wonder.

Liz Lambson [02:23:56] So heavy. There's one more thing I wanted to. To mention before we move into the next part, because this is really a turning point and I think a catalyst for what's happening next. And it involves my dad. So my dad was very conservative, military man. The military was like his life. He had a lot of guns. I didn't know that he had so many guns. And then one time we were visiting, and this visit was very strange because it turns out he had a fiance. This would become wife number three that I didn't know about. So you may remember that he got married to the second wife and didn't. I didn't find out until almost a year later that he married. So. So then we discover there's, oh, like that second wife. It took us a while to figure out that she'd left. And one of the ways I knew is that I invited myself, like, can I come visit on this weekend? Or whatever. And immediately he was like, yeah. And I was like, wait, you don't have to run it by the wife who sometimes would say, no. Like I was saying, like, I couldn't just like, go visit home. I wasn't home anymore. I couldn't visit whenever I wanted. So I was checking in, like, can I visit? And it's like, oh, I can, like. And then it was discovered that wife number two was gone. So then enters the picture, wife number three, who is my age, which is interesting because I'm the youngest kid. Like, she's. She's literally like, our birthdays are just a few weeks apart. So this is like, young woman my age. And in the same visit, we discover that she exists, he has a fiance. And she's like, yeah, we're gonna have a wedding and you guys can come. I'm like, oh, okay. And then my kids are playing leg duplos on the floor. And my oldest son was probably like, seven at the time. He found a loaded gun under the couch. Like, some of the duplos went under the couch. He was reaching for his Legos, and he finds a loaded gun. And, like, I freak out. I make everybody get all the kids out of the house, face my dad, and I'm like, I'm not bringing my kids back in there until. Unless you put all the guns away. He's like, okay. He goes back in and comes out a short while later. There was like, in. In a room where they would play, there was a mirror. If you opened the mirror, behind it was like, loaded gun with, like, this magnetic holder and like a stash of ammo. Know. So I knew about the secret closet too. And I was like, how about the. How about the. The mirror? Did you move the. The gun behind the mirror? Like that one? And he's like, ah, okay. He goes back in the house, and there wasn't a gun safe. I don't even know where he was putting them. Like, just in his closet or something anyway. But after that visit, I was like, I'm never taking my kids back in that house. It's not safe. And. And then the last. The last what became the last time that I saw my dad? I was. I had sort of my perspective of what an. What eternal families mean started changing. I started kind of losing faith in the old Mormon standard eternal family. Because, you know, there is a lot of emphasis on family history and connecting generations and the hearts of the children turns to the fathers and stuff like that. And I was just not having a good relationship with my dad. And I started feeling like, you know what? I think it's time for us to just. Like, I was sort of choosing estrangement because I was like, like, I'm not going to initiate anymore. If he calls me, maybe I'll answer, but I'm not going to. I'm going to stop trying. Like, I was offended that he didn't come to the baptisms and the baby blessings. He never came out to see me perform at the ballet as many times as I invited. I was not allowed to come visit sometimes when I wanted to. And then he and the third wife got married and we weren't invited. And, and I just was like, I've just had it, like, whatever. Like, I, I'm done trying. Like, sure, if he calls, I'll answer. And it's, it's like there's another aspect where like, I felt like I always needed to prove to him that like, Mormonism was right for me. Like, anytime I felt like I couldn't leave the circumstances I was in because then it. Because I was trying to prove something to him as well. That's sort of a different topic. But anyway, I was getting really involved with Black Lives Matter 2020. I helped launch the Utah Black History Museum, which is this mobile museum. I'm not on it anymore. You might understand the concept of non profit burnout out. But I burned out with the nonprofit and I've, I've moved on. But anyway, I was really involved with Black Lives Matter in Utah. And the last time I went to visit my dad, he was volunteering at a gun museum, like a military museum. And I, I like drove out there to pick up my kids because they went on the tour with him. And there was like this panorama thing set up with like a, like a, like a real car and a dummy. And it had a sign that was like this gang banger was listening to his rap music too loud. It was this really racist thing with like bullet holes in the car and like fake blood paint. And then this, the dummies dead, like feet hanging out of the car kind of thing. And I was like, this is disgusting. And I climbed out of the car and I could hear like guns firing at the range, like right next to me. And I was like, someone's gonna shoot me. But I like, couldn't not do something about it. And I had a paint marker in my bag that I was using to like paint the black history bus. And I like climbed through the barbed wire and wrote. I crossed out the thing about the rap music and was like this gang banger was listening to his country music too loud. Black Lives Matter, like snagging my Taylor Swift sweater on the barbed wire. Anyway, and I didn't let my kids in my dad's house. It's just this like, moment where like, I just so angry about gun culture and racism and all these different things.

Racial Identity, Social Justice, and Growing Disaffection

John Dehlin [02:31:23] Can I ask a couple questions about that? Is that all right?

Liz Lambson [02:31:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:26] So. So obviously the. Your dad having guns isn't necessarily a Mormon thing per se, because your dad was a Mormon. But we know that Utah is steeped in gun culture.

Liz Lambson [02:31:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] In addition, you talk about, you know, we jump forward to 2020 or whatever, talk about Black Lives Matter. You think about Utah, if Utah's on a spectrum in terms of supporting things like Black Lives Matter versus, quote, Blue Lives Matter or more, I'll just say maga, you know, conservative Trump, kind of religious politics, politics versus more Democrat or liberal or progressive. Utah certainly is. Is to the right. Can we back up a little bit and talk about as a Mormon woman now living in Utah who is biracial and half African American, how you're experiencing. And, and I know some of this is going to come into the fourth episode, but, like, as a believing Mormon, active Mormon woman who's half African American, how are you experiencing Utah as it relates to the police brutality to, you know, the average Mormon or the average Utahan's reaction to Black Lives Matter? Is that. Is that something you want to talk about or say?

Liz Lambson [02:32:54] I mean, it's. This is when a lot of the, A lot of things started to break down in my head in terms of my devotion to the Mormon people. I used to, like, worship all things Mormon and related to Mormon families, Mormon everything. But I. Politics, to the connection between politics and religion, especially in the state, you can't deny it. You can't get around it. I mean, even the flow of money, you know, I feel like, is it like the church makes statements and appeals to the Republicans because they're the ones who are paying the most tithing? I don't know. Like, it's such a.

Liz Lambson [02:33:54] The.

Liz Lambson [02:33:56] I mean, being. Getting it really involved with Black Lives Matter, that was the moment. And I, and I wrote this in my letter that you read. But, like, when I got involved with Black Lives Matter, it's, it's when I was. It's when I joined the team of artists who painted the Black Lives Matter mural at City hall. And I knew there was going to be a lot of press around it and interviews. And then as I got more involved and became the director of the museum, there were also. There's a lot of press following us around and interviews and features about the museum and Black Lives Matter and my involvement. And I decided in 2020 that I would not let on that I had any affiliation to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint. If anyone was interviewing me about Black Lives Matter, it seemed so contrary. Like, it didn't seem to make sense. I didn't feel like people would take me seriously as a. As an activist, as someone who truly believed the things that I was standing up for. If I hinted at any affiliation with the Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:35:10] And I think what I want you to do, if it's all right, is fill in why you felt that way. In other words, you're now living in Utah as a biracial woman who's half African American. You're seeing that the average Utahan probably is against the Black Lives Matter movement. Is. And, you know, it shouldn't be for. Against police, but there's certainly more on the side.

Liz Lambson [02:35:33] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [02:35:34] Of. Of protecting police than having sympathy for how African Americans are often treated in this country by. By police and by the judicial system. So can you just talk about. I mean, we're going to save your. Your disaffection for part four, but there's a point where you're a faithful Mormon, black woman, multiracial woman, living in Utah, seeing. Seeing the massive support for Republicanism and for Trump and for the MAGA stuff and against. And against the Black Lives Matter movement while you're living here. And I'm just gonna paint a picture of what that's like for you, not as you're becoming disaffected, but as you're a believing Mormon woman still in Utah who also happens to be black.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:24] I'm noticing your reaction in just. Just like, going back or thinking about it. You. You don't have to. You don't have to do this. You don't have to go here.

Liz Lambson [02:36:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:37] This is really. Because it's not your job to educate us. That's right. Oh, that's very effortful on you. On your behalf. And you don't. I just want to say that you don't need to. You can pass on this question. We can move on with the timeline. Okay.

Liz Lambson [02:36:56] Yeah. Thank you. No, I mean, I think you bring up a really good point. Like, one of the main reasons that I left the museum project, the Black History Museum stepped away as the director, is because, like, the work itself was really traumatizing. Like, the number of times I had to talk to ignorant white people who denied that racism was even a thing. Thing or an issue, or people who would say, like, well, slavery ended in whatever year that was. It's not a thing. Like, you're just making this up. Or like, I'd set up the. The museum exhibit. That's what Was heartbreaking every time to put out the information and the artifacts. A lot of the term for it is Negro Billia. Like, like little. Any, like, kind of black artifacts. Mammy dolls as an example. I. I kind of grew our kind collection of mammy dolls and we got a great donation of black dolls from the old McCarty doll museum in Provo that closed a while back. But they donated their entire black doll collection, which is huge. But like, there was one artifact in particular that was always so heartbreaking to set up. And I'd put it out with little black baby dolls, but it's like a. A little tin plate advertisement for like African licorice drops. And it's like a little African baby, a little black baby. And the croc crocodile alligator is going to eat the baby and the baby's like the candy. And it's just this thing that people used to joke about the little black babies being like alligator bait, you know, and that was like the name of the candy and like the advertisement, like little licorice drops, babies to be eaten by the alligators. But I mean, I was a little bit. My. My view, I have to say, is pretty skewed because like, I was constantly, like, the people who would invite the museum to their organization or their school were people who, who were quote unquote on our side. Like, the people who didn't want anything to do with black history being taught at schools or people who complain about critical race theory or whatever. Sorry, I shouldn't say or whatever. But those people wouldn't invite us. They didn't want. They were the people who were flipping us off when we're driving the bus by them, you know, or like we had a window broken, you know, like, those people weren't inviting us. So I had the good fortune of, like, when I was sharing the museum at Oregon organizations or schools or at events like Pride festivals and stuff, like, it's with people who like, wanted us there, who wanted the education, who wanted to hear or see and experience and learn and also hear my perspective like you guys are. Right now you're asking me like, what's your perspective? What's your experience? That's really generous. Thank you, like, for caring and like, recognizing that, like, racism is real and that people of color have had horrible experiences and gener. Experienced generational trauma and it's so real. Thank you for acknowledging that. Not everyone does. People don't buy in. They think it's an act or something. Like we're just like, like, pretending to be oppressed. Like, go tell That I don't know, like, I can't, like, dive into my family history too much, but, you know, like, my grandmother was a prostitute for a time to try to make ends meet. Like, not. I don't know a lot of white Mormons who have that story about their grandparents. You know, they don't. They don't think that's real or they just haven't seen it in their world.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:27] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:41:28] Anyway.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:28] Or even having a relative, having a dad who oftentimes, I mean, I would imagine inevitably having a hyper, like, sense around safety.

Liz Lambson [02:41:43] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:44] Literally being like, in a moment could be in a situation where he could be hunted. He could be.

Liz Lambson [02:41:51] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:52] Like, I don't think think that's something that's. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:41:55] He was so paranoid. He, like, taught my husband how to, like, when the enemy arrives and is at your. The door of your bedroom, this is the angle and the direction that you shoot. Like, just like. And then to have loaded guns just on hand everywhere. He was so paranoid. And I know that's related to what he experienced in his childhood. And also, I think in the military. The military was huge, but. Yeah. And like, growing up, we had locks on our windows. Like, he'd bolt our windows so that we could only open it slightly in the summer for cool air. It couldn't open wide enough for a human body to fit through, so no one could come in and no one could come out. The house had to be very secure. Like, three locks on the front door, three locks from the living room to the garage, two locks from the garage to the backyard, one or two locks on the back gate. I was constantly getting locked out of the house because there were so many locks. It frustrated me to no end. And like, I remember having, you know, when I brought my kids to visit once and one of them had to pee. I had to go to the bathroom, and I'm like, pounding on the front door. Like, we have to get in. He has to use the bathroom. Like, please open the door. And I was kicking the door. I was, like, kicking it and then I thought, now I'm thinking, like, wait, wait, wait, don't kick the door. You might get shot. Yeah, like, you gotta be careful. There are a lot of live guns in there. So, I mean, he would keep a gun in his back pocket when kids were trick or treating. I hated that I idea like, oh, can you imagine, like, your little kid going to the door not knowing that, like, the guy at the door has a gun, like, right there.

John Dehlin [02:43:49] Well, I guess thank you for everything you've been willing to share. And I guess I do want to just follow up with one question in this line, incorporating Margi's invitation for you to just say, I don't really want to talk about this. That, you know, when you think about Donald Trump being and, and this is not to be political. I'm trying to talk about race in a way that isn't really partisan.

Liz Lambson [02:44:17] It's so connected.

John Dehlin [02:44:19] I know. So, so I just want to say I have Republican or conservative listeners. I don't believe that all Republicans are racist or that the Republican Party necessarily stands for anti Black Lives Matter or whatever. But I do want to ask this question like, and only answer what you're comfortable, if you're comfortable at all. I can't imagine, like, as I was watching Donald Trump get elected in 2016, as I was watching the George Floyd stuff, as I was watching my fellow Mormon, Utah Mormon Republicans reactions to George Floyd or the Black Lives Matter movement or Donald Trump's election and all that that entailed regarding race, I was horrified. Personally, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a person of color living in Utah as a faithful Mormon member, seeing how much Utah Mormons and Arizona Mormons and Idaho Mormons embraced anti Black Lives Matter stuff and embraced political philosophies that seem to be associated with racism. So I guess I just want to give you a chance to say, as a believing black Mormon woman living in Utah, is there anything you feel comfortable sharing about what that was like, to see that all around you in the culture you were a part of?

Liz Lambson [02:45:47] Well, it's what, it's what started. It was one of the kickers that started the loss of the, the loss of faith, like, the loss of faith in these people that I trusted. What did you say that I admired?

John Dehlin [02:46:02] What did you like, I just gave my attempt at trying to give a framework for what you might have been experiencing. How would you describe what you were experiencing with your fellow Republican Utah Mormons regarding race?

Liz Lambson [02:46:16] What did you experience? Having a yelling match with the, this very respected older white man in my ward at the time. He said something unaffectionate about Black Lives Matter. And we got into this conversation about him and he was defending all his police friends and he was saying that, you know, we don't know the circumstances in George Floyd's death. We don't know, like, you know, what kind of a character he was or, you know, basically saying, like, George Floyd, like, deserved what he got that kind of attitude defending the actions of the police officer in that situation. And I was losing it. I. I don't, like, yell at people. I yell at my kids sometimes, but I don't, like, yell at people like. Like, ward members, you know? But we got in a shouting match in a parking lot, and it was so just. I mean. And other people would. Would make. He's not the only one. But I just lost. Like, I looked up to these people so much, and all of a sudden, I, like, Like, felt like I couldn't trust them. I. I suddenly, like, in this community where I used to feel so safe, it's where I would turn to. To feel safe and welcome and loved. I suddenly realized, like, there are a lot more, like, people with. Whether or not they want to admit it, with, like, pretty racist beliefs and behaviors and views than I was ever aware of. I think it kind of looking back on my BYU experience, like, I was just so naive, you know? You're like, did you feel exoticized? Like, I didn't even. I don't think I even knew that word when I was a student. Like, I didn't know what that meant.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:22] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:48:22] So, you know, now I. Now I'm looking at things through a different lens. And then I was sharing with the museum exhibit. It's. It's specifically Utah's black history. So I was sharing a lot of history and information about racism in the state of Utah. So statements by Brigham Young on big posters. One of the most interesting things was the redlining map for the development of Salt Lake City, where the green and red areas outlined on the map where black people weren't allowed to live. The white people could live here. Black people. That's what redlining is. You separate people according to race and money.

John Dehlin [02:49:10] And that happened around what time period?

Liz Lambson [02:49:13] I'm trying to remember the year, but probably early 1900s. I mean, the house that I live in right now is built in 1905. I remember the house we lived in Kansas City was built in 1927. And it was in the deed of that home that a black person couldn't own that property, just like in the actual document that's still used. And people say, like. Like, oh, this stuff isn't. Like, it's not in our laws or system. It's not systematic. There we go. People say racism isn't systematic. It's not part of the system. That's. But. But it's like, okay, look at the deed to my house, how it says here on paper that a black person can't own this property. Can we update the system? Like, not everything's, like, digital, where you can just like control, f find, replace. Like who's going to take the time to go back and update these documents? Nobody. I mean, like with that, that bill that just passed, like, like recognizing or the legality of same sex marriage. Apparently, like it also as a subtext is recognizing the legality of interracial marriage. So like that just happened this year or Was it this 2023 or 2022, late 2022, within the last year. I mean, because we've had the court cases that, that allow. That have led the way for same sex marriage or interracial marriage. Like the loving case, which happened in my dad's lifetime, like my own father, you know, having an interracial marriage that was pretty newfangled, not very common. So, you know, so you've had these court cases that allow for these things to become legal. But, but then it's like, oh, 2023, we finally get that federal bill that like, makes it like, like establishes it like in a, in a, in like a definitive kind of final way. And interracial marriage was like a part of that too. Like beyond the court cases. Let's like put it in writing, you know, make a, make it official. And like, I just, I just, I'm looking back at the families that I idolized in Colorado Springs. And I used to not be into politics and I still find it so much about it to be very distasteful. But part of my walking away is the fact that like, I'm sick of all of it and I no longer want to be affiliated with any particular religious organization or political party. I want to have no obligations to these organizations that don't reflect my values. Yeah, I must separate myself from them.

John Dehlin [02:52:40] Well, and that, that, that's a really good preview for what part four is going to be. And I don't know if we covered everything you wanted to cover in part three.

Liz Lambson [02:52:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:50] What I do want to say, just to close out this one section just from my perspective, because I know I'm putting you in a really difficult position. Position by even asking these questions. I'll just say it. I'm. You know, the Mormon Church claims to be led by prophets of God who speak for and to Jesus and God. So for me, what that means is if there's any righteous or good or noble cause on the planet, specifically around the treatment of humans, but definitely around the matters of civil rights or the treatment of marginalized groups which Jesus purported to be the champion of, that claim of our prophets being led by God would require that we would be on the forefront as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on all the really important social justice issues, racism being primary. And so I'm just going to say without, you know, I'm a registered Republican in Utah and I've got my own reasons for that. I certainly have progressive sensibilities. But my point is saying, putting politics out of this, partisanship, out of this. What I would hope from my church, my people, is that this church would lead the nation in fighting for the rights of minorities, fighting for the rights of black people and of other people of color and indigenous people, and that we would be against police brutality, against systematic racism, for anti racism. And I don't, you know, I know critical race theory is highly politicized and charged, but for education about black history and, and for any sort of education that helps white people specifically understand systemic racism and white supremacy and white supremacy and how it exists and how it's still affecting us and how it is deeply problematic. That's what I would expect from my people and what I've experienced as a white guy who just tries to care about these things, that does care about these things, is deep disappointment that the average Mormon, the average Utah Mormon, the average Idaho Mormon, Arizona Mormon, is like leading the charge large on the complete other side of where we should be. And if the brethren, the church leaders do speak out, it's in a very careful, calculated, legalistic, neutral way saying, well, we denounce all racism in all forms, but doing very little beyond that.

Liz Lambson [02:55:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:25] To acknowledge and. Or change the fact that our culture is flaming hot red Trump maga. Anti. Sort of anti. You know, I don't say super racist, but certainly anti. Doing anything to sort of acknowledge systemic racism and. Or address the epidemic of police brutality. That's what I am kind of feeling.

Liz Lambson [02:55:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:55] And I'm just one, you know, I guess I was just wanting to know if you felt those things too.

Liz Lambson [02:55:59] I think that there's racism in the church is also systematic. And when I say system, it's again, it's part of the doctrine. You would have to go change the doctrines. You would have to go change things that are in writing. Like I said about going back and updating the deed of a house to say that anyone can own it. You'd have to go and edit the, you'd have to update the scriptures.

Liz Lambson [02:56:20] And you.

Liz Lambson [02:56:20] And you're right, you would think that like with a modern prophet who has the ability to receive like modern revelation that. Yeah, like, why aren't we at the forefront? Why when you have a Person who could receive a modern revelation to make a change, why aren't those changes happening? Why is it in defense of the traditions, the traditional, like, for traditional marriage, for example? Like, I've said that this is one of the things that I feel like we're starting to inch into part four. But, you know, it's like, wouldn't it be nice to be part of a church where, like, a woman could perform the marriage of my child to the partner of their choice? Wouldn't that be nice? That is not. This is not the church where you can find that.

John Dehlin [02:57:09] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:57:11] So, so. And then you get to the. The Book of Mor scriptures in the Book of Mormon that there's some pretty intense. Well, there's a lot of violence in the Book of Mormon and there's a lot of division between racial groups in the Book of Mormon. I feel like the whole book is like those two themes. And so, I mean, when I read the Book of Mormon in high school, I literally thought that my skin would lighten if I became more righteous. Like, I really believed what I was reading. I was like. I was like, is my skin a

Liz Lambson [02:57:42] little bit lighter than my siblings? Because.

Liz Lambson [02:57:43] Because I'm becoming more righteous than them. I actually believed that. Like, and I mean, this is. I'm alive. I'm right here. This is like, this is not something in the past, generations ago. Like, this is current. It's current. So, like, it's in the. It's in the doctrines, it's in the teachings. It's in the system of the church. It's systematic.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being willing to discuss really hard things, and I'm sorry that you have to even be talking about any of this.

Liz Lambson [02:58:27] Thanks. I mean, thanks for valuing what I have to say. This is a. An amazing program that you have to bring in. Just people, anybody. Let's talk about. Talk about this stuff.

John Dehlin [02:58:45] Well, yeah. So part four of your story is going to be about your deconstruction, and it's going to be fantastic. So everyone please stay tuned and plan to come back for part four. Is there anything else you want to share to kind of conclude a part three that's just really. That really fits well. Well in this part, or do you think we've kind of covered the main things you wanted to cover?

Liz Lambson [02:59:09] I was talking about my dad and I. Maybe we can leave with a little cliffhanger in that 20, 21 January, I got a call that a gun, one shot had gone off in my dad's home and we weren't Weren't sure if he was okay. And I'm on the phone and I got in my car, threw some things in a bag and just got in my car and started driving to Colorado. And we shall find out what happens next.

John Dehlin [03:00:00] All right. Okay. Well, Liz Lambson, thank you so much for everything you've shared. This is a really heavy, intense set of topics, and your willingness to help us learn and do better can't be probably overstated.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:18] We so value your experience and your willingness to share it.

Liz Lambson [03:00:22] Thank you. Thanks for listening.

John Dehlin [03:00:25] All right. And don't go away. Come right back for part four where we're going to find out how. And we didn't even cover so much what it's like to be playing for the orchestra at Temple Square, touring with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

Liz Lambson [03:00:44] It's just like a. It's just priesthood and Relief Society on steroids.

John Dehlin [03:00:51] Okay.

Liz Lambson [03:00:51] In. In little choir frocks.

John Dehlin [03:00:54] Okay.

Liz Lambson [03:00:55] Little robes. Choir robes.

John Dehlin [03:00:57] All right, well, what we'll be talking about is how someone who basically gave her whole life to the church, converted to the church, sacrificed for the church, and was fully on board how that all comes kind of unraveling and crashing down just in the past year. Right.

Liz Lambson [03:01:16] Like I. Yeah, I. I resigned on December 4. And within 24 hours, someone had forwarded my resignation letter to a man named John De Lin. So within a day of me saying I want nothing to do with Mormonism came the opportunity to be on. On a show called Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [03:01:48] Yeah, lucky.

Liz Lambson [03:01:49] So here I am.

John Dehlin [03:01:51] And part four, we'll talk about how that. How that all unraveled your Mormon dream kind of unraveled.

Liz Lambson [03:01:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:56] All right, well, thanks, Liz Lambson, for coming on and Margi, thanks for being here and being co host.

Liz Lambson [03:02:06] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:02:07] And thanks to everyone who's joined us today for part three. And please come right back for part four where we'll conclude our interview with L. Liz.

Liz Lambson [03:02:14] And there will be a great outfit

John Dehlin [03:02:15] and she'll have a brand new outfit with makeup. There's a makeup artist. Makeup artist here.

Liz Lambson [03:02:23] Please come back for the wardrobe change.

John Dehlin [03:02:26] All right, thanks, everyone. We'll see you all for part four. Just right around the corner. Take care, everybody. See you soon.

Part Four Introduction and Testimony Cracks Begin

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 1726

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm John Dehlin. It is January 24, 2023, and we are here in part four of this epic interview with Liz Lambson. Hey, Liz.

Liz Lambson [00:00:15] Hi. Back in the hot seat.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] We'll give you a chance to talk about your outfit, your costume and makeup, but I'll just give a quick overview. We've already done three parts with Liz. I'm going to do like the 32nd version. Liz was born to an African American father from Louisiana and a South Korean mother. And her mother abandoned the family when Liz was 10. Liz made some friends in Colorado who were LDS and sort of converted belief wise to the Mormon Church. As a teenager was a dry Mormon. Her father wouldn't let her get baptized. That was kind of part one of this epic series with Liz. Part two is her time at BYU where she not only got baptized into the Mormon Church, but then also became a part of BYU's elite orchestra where she toured the world playing the stand up bass and decided to do the Mormon marriage and motherhood thing. Part three was a focus on Liz's experience having five children with her husband Sam, doing the Mormon mommy marriage thing and how she also tried to be a working mom during that time and how that wasn't always as fun and as happy as she thought it would be. And we ended part three talking about race and Black Lives Matter and her perspective being a black believing Mormon woman in Utah during kind of the Trump MAGA Black Lives Matter era. And we ended part three sort of as her Mormon faith was kind of teetering in the balance. And part four is going to be about Liz's deconstruction. And what's particularly significant to me about this whole series is how Liz converted to Mormonism as a teenager, how much she wanted to be a Mormon, how hard she worked to be a Mormon, including sacrificing her own identity, her own interests, her family relationships. And so part four is going to kind of answer the question, how can someone who wanted to be Mormon so badly, who gave so much of her life to become Mormon and to live the Mormon way, how could that dissolve? And what would cause that to dissolve? And that's going to be part four. And I'm joined in studio, much to my enjoyment, but by my life partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:52] Hey there.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] Thanks for being here.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:54] Yes, I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] You ready for part four?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:56] I'm ready.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] All right.

Liz Lambson [00:02:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] Well, for each of the Because Liz is an artist, she plays standup bass. For Ballet West. She's been involved in all sorts of artistic endeavors here in the Utah area, including as a painter and as a musician, the singer, songwriter, et cetera. But one of the really fun things that Liz has done during this four part series is dress differently for each of the four episodes. And so, Liz, if it's all right, let's begin with you discussing this outfit. And we can't see your skirt.

Liz Lambson [00:03:33] And this is a thing, you might not be able to see it, but I can and I feel it. What I'm wearing, even if you're just listening to the podcast, you're not Even watching on YouTube, you may not know, but I know and it, and it affects the way that I feel. So I am wearing a hot pink sort of tube top corset. This is my first ever strapless top outfit. This is my first time. We talked about this in the last episode, how I tried on a strapless wedding dress. Loved it. Felt amazing, felt beautiful. But it was like, too bad you can't wear that with garments. Put it back on the rack. And how bummed I was that we had to add sleeves to even the custom wedding dress that was made for me, which is beautiful, beautifully done by my husband's sister. Anyway, so I am wearing this hot pink, fluffy tulle, tube top corsety thing. My, my debut in the world as a, as a free shouldered woman. Well, that's not true. I, I did stop wearing my garments like last year. But, but this is a special, special symbolic. It doesn't like, it doesn't have like, I've been wearing tank tops and stuff, but this has nothing.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:04] Yes.

Liz Lambson [00:05:04] Like, it's just like I'm completely.

John Dehlin [00:05:06] No straps.

Liz Lambson [00:05:07] Yeah, there's no. Yeah, the strapless element is important for me personally. And then I've got like this black sort of satin floral skirt that also has hot pink flowers on it

Margi Dehlin [00:05:19] that

Liz Lambson [00:05:19] was given to me by a friend. And I have some gold glittery jelly shoes. Also a 90s thing, I guess, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:29] And the skirt is full length.

Liz Lambson [00:05:31] Yeah, it's like a mermaid to the floor sort of a gown look. But, you know, here's the thing. I am an aspiring actress and artist and musician. And I don't know if I'm gonna get my big break, you know, Like, I don't know if I'm gonna get on the Tonight show like I dream or that I'll be on stage at the Oscars receiving my Oscar. But I have always, always wanted to dress for that occasion. So in the Mormon realm, I feel that this is the talk show in Mormondom. So I am dressing up to be on the Mormon talk show, well known around the world. This is. This is my. My big moment.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:28] Your debut.

Liz Lambson [00:06:29] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:30] We honor that.

Liz Lambson [00:06:32] This is fair. This is just a really special occasion for me. And I thought, you know, I was reading. I've been reading a little bit of Walden, Henry David Thoreau, which is super annoying in so many ways. Like that guy. Who does he think he is? But he wrote something like, oh, never buy any new clothing for any occasion. And I'm like, did this dude go to the prom? Does he know that when there's a special occasion, it's. It's not only customary, but it's. I don't know, it's meaningful to go and. And get something and dress for the occasion. So that's what I'm doing for this. This is a special event.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] Well, we're honored to have you. And when you do collect not just your Oscar, but your egot, your Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, and Tony, we'll be able to say we knew you went, and

Margi Dehlin [00:07:30] we'll be cheering for you from our couch.

Liz Lambson [00:07:32] Thank you. Well, you know, on that note, what I've realized after three episodes, three parts so far, is that clearly there are a lot of stories to tell. I think this conversation can continue for days, perhaps an endless number of parts and episodes. But what I'd like to do as a writer, what I've decided anyway is, is when this is all wrapped, what is this going to be, like, nine hours? That's the length of an audiobook. So my plan is to listen to this and work my way through it and write it down. Like, write it in a book form. I've worked on versions of my memoir, and I even got quite a ways into a version last year, a manuscript that I've been working on for years from the perspective of my life through the lens of my hair, learning to accept my racial identity and my biracial identity, growing up in a white neighborhood, going from having my parents straightening my hair since the time I was five to growing up my Afro and really accepting myself for who I am. But I hit a wall, though, when I reached my adolescence, because in this manuscript, and a big hurdle or part of the wall that was stopping me was I didn't know how to talk about my conversion. What happened to me in my adolescence in terms of how Mormonism impacted my youth and the rest of my life. I didn't know how to write my story without having something negative to say about my experience. With the church. There were, as you know, some traumatizing parts of this story that were part of the whole Mormon experience. So I was, I've been trying to write, you know, some of these stories without mentioning the church. And when you're an active Mormon, you do feel an obligation to not speak ill of the brethren, to only say and write and publish positive things. And that, I feel was holding me back. So in a way I feel like, well, you've done me a great favor service by giving me the chance to tell my story in this way, in this place and in this context. And I feel that it's sort of the, like, you know, the puzzle pieces in so many ways are coming into place. But I'm really excited to work on this story in the form of a book manuscript. I hope that I can complete it. Perhaps it will go somewhere and you can invite me back and we can talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] I'm just reading Heather Gay's memoir now. She's Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and she just completed a memoir called Bad Mormon. Yeah, I think Simon Schuster published it.

Liz Lambson [00:11:00] I saw that.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] I'm listening to the audiobook and we're having her on Mormon stories in a couple weeks.

Liz Lambson [00:11:04] Nice.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] So it'd be fun to have you as well. There's, there's clearly a market for. I won't put Mormonism in the category of a cult, but there's clearly a demand for ex cult memoirs and, or for ex high demand religion memoirs.

Liz Lambson [00:11:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] So there should be a place.

Liz Lambson [00:11:23] There is also, I see a demand for multicultural voices. Yes, absolutely. So I think I'm, yeah, I'm excited about hopefully the opportunities, but it's, you know, it's a lot of work. But here you've, you've done the work for me. You have documented the outline. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Our pleasure. Well, I'll say. I don't know if I began in part one with this, but I, I became aware of you because you wrote this really beautiful and well written and powerful resignation letter that you sent to your stake president and I'm assuming your bishop and I shared it with Margi and we're just like, we have to have this woman on. Regardless of the fact that we like, you know, diversity and we like multicultural experiences and you have experience as a convert. All that's really relevant to why we wanted you on, but also just, just because of how thoughtful that that narrative was. And so we've covered some of what you included in that letter in the first three parts. But I am just really excited for this, part four.

Liz Lambson [00:12:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Which, as I said in the intro, what would you. You sacrificed so much and you've worked so hard to become Mormon. You wanted it harder, more than most of us did. So what in. Let's talk, let's tell the story of the undoing of your relationship with the Mormon Church.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:57] And do we hold the cliffhanger also?

Liz Lambson [00:13:00] What is with that?

Margi Dehlin [00:13:01] Or do you want to.

Liz Lambson [00:13:03] Oh, we left the last episode on kind of a cliffhanger.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:13:06] Do you remember? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Where do we begin here?

First Cracks in Faith and Pioneer Heritage Questions

John Dehlin [00:13:15] When did your Mormon testimony first start to have cracks around?

Liz Lambson [00:13:19] Oh, I should have mentioned this in the previous episode. It was during that Ithaca time.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:13:24] We lived in the Mormon commune. My husband was in business school. And it's so interesting because in our couple, in our couple relationship, in our partnership, people see me as the artist, as kind of the liberal, progressive, edgy, just that character. And then they see my husband, who's this tall, white, sort of Peter Priesthood looking person, and they'll look at us and assume that I am responsible for leading my husband astray. But in the end, it turned out that my husband's the one who really proposed and pushed the idea of us departing way, like cutting ties with the Mormon Church that I think catches people by surprise. So I can pinpoint a moment when we were in Ithaca. He's in business school. We had two kids at the time. Okay. Actually, no, rewind the first crack I mentioned, which is when we're over the altar at the temple and he's not into it. He's wearing his goofy outfit and hat and he was like, not super, not emanating excitement about being in the temple. I understand why. And I didn't interpret that as him not being excited to be with me. I just knew that it was something about the setting and the religion. He was not as into it as I was. But in business school, when he was in business school, he was studying marketing organizational structures, and he began to make comments about the church as a business and the way that they conduct themselves as a business. And especially diving into some of the marketing, the way they market things, the way the appearances, the advertising, just those elements that, I mean, it's very clear, and I mentioned this in a previous episode as well, that the church has a lot of money. And that was one of my draws, even, because I like nice things. I like nice things. And so, you know, of all the churches, like, well, this one's very clean and the buildings are nice and they're. They've got all the, all the, everything they need, and they share it with the members, although the members are helping pay anyway.

John Dehlin [00:16:05] We are for sure the most wealthy and powerful church in the United States.

Liz Lambson [00:16:10] It's pretty incredible.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:16:13] Yeah. So I, so he started kind of pointing out some of the, some of the elements that make the church a successful business. And I, I, I wasn't like, I understood it, and I, and I, I believed all that he was saying. And I'm very, I'm very easily influenced. I think it's one of my strengths. I think I am an empathetic person, and I think I'm a good listener. And part of why I was so open to Mormon doctrine and Mormonism in the first place is that I, I was open to hearing it. And I like to put myself in other people's shoes and think, yeah, like, what if, what is that? What, what does that feel like? So, you know, what does it feel like to be Mormon? Or, like, what would it feel like to be Joseph Smith and to go through that experience? And so, so I am kind of, like, very spongy in that way. When people tell me about their perspectives and experiences and beliefs and values, I take a lot of those things to heart. So in my relationship with my husband, well, going back, I mean, one thing that I said that I loved about him and what drew me to the idea of marrying him was that we'd never run out of things to talk about. We'd always have interesting conversations. I would never be bored. And we do. And so around that time is when there were conversations coming up about some of the sketchier things about Mormonism, things we hadn't really talked about before that openly.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] So when you, you mentioned how much you loved, in a, in a, in a sense, the wealth and power of the church. But you also mentioned that as the first crack, what was it about the wealth and power of the church that made it a crack for you?

Liz Lambson [00:18:33] It was kind of realizing that I'd always viewed it as, like, there's a prophet who's in control of the organization. But, and I knew there were other people involved, but then you start seeing that as a business, though. There are accountants and lawyers and employees and advertising teams and all kinds of people working behind the scenes on, not necessarily the religious side of things, but the, the, the business side of things. And it just casts kind of a different light on it. I mean, it's similar to how when I, you know, when I converted and joined the church, all I was looking at was kind of doctrines. I was reading the Scriptures, was reading the church magazines. I wasn't. I was just very naive. I wasn't aware of. Of all the other things, all the. You know, and. And that's. I think that's what is. It's so funny. It's like the closer I got to the church as an organization, the. The farther away I was getting from the what I thought I joined the heart of it. It's like, you know, we've used the word filter a little bit, looking at things through a filter, and I felt like as a teenager, my life was very dark. And then. Or as an adolescent, especially after my mom left, and then you provide this Mormon lens filter, and then it's like light came back into my life. But then once I was baptized, it's like the filter started gathering more and more debris, and the light started filtering out again. You think about filters in a cigarette, and the filter is supposed to be this good thing that keeps the bad things out. But, like, when the filter starts getting so clogged, you start running out of oxygen, like it's not feeding you anymore. It's starting to, like, suck the life out of you. And that's what I started feeling over time. Like, what used to bring me so much joy and peace and light. It's like, you know what I was telling you about? Every single Sunday, someone's at the pulpit saying something different that they've received through their personal revelation as what they see as guidance for living the best life, your best life. And they share the wisdom that they've gained. They share their perspectives. And as I'm saying, I'm a very spongy person, and I absorb these things. And I think, yes, yes, that does seem like a very valid and wise way to live. That also seems like a very wise way to live. Like. Like, I was vegan for a year, and. And I loved that. And. But it was really hard for me with chicken nuggets in the house. And so, yeah, so I'm gathering all this. It's like more and more doctrine, more and more, quote, unquote, truth, but not all of it is truth. And so it started coming to a point where it's like, I think this filter needs to be replaced or completely gotten rid of. Like, I'm. I'm starting to not be able to breathe. And so. So then there. There was another thing that happened in Ithaca, and this was 2015, 2014. How many years ago is that? Seven, eight.

John Dehlin [00:22:56] Eight years.

Liz Lambson [00:22:56] I can't do math.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] Seven or eight? Yeah, seven or eight in the month.

Liz Lambson [00:22:59] So we were in the Palmyra Temple District. This is where Joseph Smith grew up. This is the. This is the. The. This is the. A place where people go on pilgrimages, church history tours, to go and see this place. So we went on one of the tours of the Book of Mormon Press, and Joseph Smith's, like, the house where he grew up. And then there's the hill, Cumorah, and, like, a little monument. And we went to see those things with our kids. And, you know, I was really concerned about the kids breaking stuff. They break so many things. They were in Joseph Smith's little bedroom knocking over this, like, antique lamp, and the tour guide's getting all upset with us. And so I'm, you know, worried about the kids but also enjoying, like, this historical experience. But there were. There were just a lot of, like, You know, the church history tour guides only have the most positive, wonderful things to share and these stories and about the miracles and the angels appearing in the translation. And somebody shared a story about the. Joseph hiding the golden plates in, like, a barrel of corn. Does that sound familiar?

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Definitely. In a barrel.

Liz Lambson [00:24:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] I don't remember what was in the barrel. It might have been, like, beans or something.

Liz Lambson [00:24:37] Yeah, like grain. Like a barrel. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:24:39] So they were telling this story, and I just found all this really interesting. I especially like the Book of Mormon Press, where they printed the books. I mean, as a writer, I feel like it's so exciting to publish something to disseminate information that way. But that night, we got home and I think my husband and I talked till like, two or three in the morning, and he was like, what if. What if all. Not, maybe not all of it, but what if a good portion of this stuff is just, like, superstition? Like, was there really. Were there really golden plates in the barrel? Or is that just, like, a convenient thing when people are looking for the gold plates and they can't find them? Well, they couldn't find them because they were hiding in a barrel of corn. But, like, he's like, what if there were no gold plates?

John Dehlin [00:25:29] And this is your brother?

Liz Lambson [00:25:30] This is my husband.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] Or your husband. Oh, this is Sam.

Liz Lambson [00:25:32] This is Sam.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Okay.

Liz Lambson [00:25:34] Yeah. We went on this tour together.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] He was asking this back in Ithaca.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] In Palmyra. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:39] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [00:25:39] So, you know, he's. He's pitching these ideas about the church being a business and marketing schemes and then. And then just pointing out that a lot of this stuff doesn't have, like, a foundation in, like, there's not much proof, you know, for a lot of these things. And it's funny because it's like the information that he was sharing with me wasn't as troubling as. At least at this point I thought, what does this mean for our eternal relationship? If my husband loses his faith and he doesn't believe, does that mean that we're not like an internal. In an eternal companionship? And that was like, heartbreaking to me. And that's. That was like the first time I considered, like, that my family might not be a forever family. Even if we remain together till our death, if your spouse doesn't believe, then you won't be together. Question mark. So that was unsettling.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] Now, oftentimes a believing spouse will tell the non believing spouse, you just cut that out right now. We're not gonna. We're not gonna be asking. Entertaining those questions. You shove that back in the bottle, you know, anywhere to saying explicitly. I've had many, many people tell me their believing spouse in response to a question like, Sam's would say, if you leave the church, we're done.

Liz Lambson [00:27:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] So what was your. Did you ever response to Sam?

Liz Lambson [00:27:24] I just listened again. I'm one of my traits, positive traits. I think I'm a good listener, and I just take that information and I absorb it and I process it. But we didn't talk too much about it. But, I mean, I would have my own periods of doubting. I think I always struggled to feel like I fit in or belonged. I've always felt different. Just different, actually. Like Kansas City. When we lived in Kansas City for two years, that was the first time I lived around. That a significant population of black people. It's where I could walk around with my natural hair, and it wasn't, like, unusual. It wasn't exceptional. Like, I could. Like, in Salt Lake City, when I cross paths with another black person, we, like, acknowledge each other. There's like a little nod. There's like a hey, like, yeah, you know? Yeah, like, I see you, I see you, you see me. Like, yeah, there's a. It's a thing. Like, it's. It's. There's just, you know, less than 2% of Utah's population is black. So running into another African American is kind of a rare thing. It happens more in Salt Lake City than it does elsewhere. When I leave Salt Lake Valley or Salt Lake County, I feel even more like I stick out. And people. I mean, people here, bless their hearts, you know, want to touch my hair and point me out in a crowd. I walked into Trader Joe's once, and one of the Cashiers was like, oh, my God, look at that hair. And, like, the whole store, like, looked at me, and I was like, hi. Or I was at Costco just like, yesterday, and this woman, like, she was like, well, aren't you adorable? Your hair? You're like, you know, they. And like, I'm flattered, I guess, but, like, it's. I'm not, like, looking for. I'm sometimes. Sometimes it's nice to be different, and sometimes you just want to blend in. And I. I had, like, for years. It took me years to grow up my natural hair after relaxing it. But a couple years ago in Utah, I was like, dude, I'm going to straighten my hair again. I just don't want to stick out this much. And I did. I relaxed my hair, and it took a couple years to grow it out again. And. But during that time, like, people weren't as in your face. Like, I mean, I've been asked at Costco to, like, model. Be a model for something because they need a person of color in their advertising.

John Dehlin [00:30:32] How does it feel?

Liz Lambson [00:30:34] I mean, sometimes I'm like, sure. I mean, I mean, as I've gotten into the acting scene or the film scene in Utah, like, it's just part of the game. Like, I know that my odds of getting some jobs, not all jobs, some jobs are higher because some directors are aware that they need a diverse cast. They're looking for diversity. They're kind of on the. On the forefront in that. But then you have other directors and casting agents who subconsciously or consciously picture white leads. So they're not going to cast a person of color as their lead. They might throw in someone as, you know, the black friend or the, you know, but definitely not as the lead. So it works in my favor sometimes when people want to diversify their cast. I ended up in an Olivia Rodrigo music video because they were looking for a cellist of color. And someone knew that I played the bass. It often gets mistaken for the cello. And I was like, well. And I hadn't even. I hadn't heard of Olivia Rodrigo at the time. This was her all I want music video. She actually wore a dress like this. It was like this poofy hot pink, but it had, like, a full skirt. It was just like this. But she. They called and we're like, hey, we're looking for we. And they don't say it, like, super outright, but, like, we want variety in our cast.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:15] Diversity.

Liz Lambson [00:32:17] You know, I mean, I know. I know what they're saying. I mean, and they'll. They Were very clear about what they were looking for for this. And I was like, well, I don't play the cello. And they're like, well, can you, like, pretend like a cello? Can you act like you? I was like, sure. So I hadn't even heard of her at the time. And I was like, okay. It was the coolest experience being on. It was filmed on the salt flats and got to meet her. This was before the sour album came out. And so what was the song again? All I want. All I want Is something. Is there something wrong with me? Yeah. Cool. And. And that's actually one of those experiences that really inspired me to go for film acting, Because I just love everything about film. There's so much that you don't see. Like, you know, well, you know, there's a camera and there's a lens, and the people who are seeing me can see this microphone. They don't see all the lights, the number of cameras in the room, the number of microphones. They don't understand that this is. Might not understand that this is not a real brick wall.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] What? What? That's blasphemy. Are you crazy? What are you talking about?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:40] We don't know.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] I'm not sure. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you saying this brick's not real?

Liz Lambson [00:33:44] This brick is as real as the golden plates in the barrel of corn.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Oh, she went there.

Liz Lambson [00:33:50] What about this brick? What about this brick that's as real as

John Dehlin [00:33:56] we have just now. Now. Now Mormon stories listeners are losing their faith in Mormon stories.

Liz Lambson [00:34:01] Dang it.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] Yeah, but we digress.

Liz Lambson [00:34:11] What were we even talking? Oh, oh, diversity. People kind of tokenizing. I had a. I had a terrible experience. May have been last February. So black history month comes around, and all of a sudden, everybody wants to be your friend here. Everybody wants you if you're black. In Utah for black history month, I was working on the. The black history museum that was black. Or February for black history month and June for Juneteenth were the busiest years. And I took the bus on tour, But I had this crazy experience where I was. February is coming up, and a friend asked me, like, if I'd be interested in playing bass backing her up for a concert on this. She's just basically like, are you available on this date to play these couple of pieces? I was like, yeah, I'm available that day. And then I thought nothing of it. We didn't talk about it anymore. And then all of a sudden, I got this Facebook message and an invitation to an event and the organizer had pulled a picture of me with an Afro offline. And I was the poster child for this Black History Month concert. I don't have a band, but they labeled it the Liz Lampson Quintet, had a picture of me with my afro and my bass, and then paired me with a black choir. And I was invited to this concert that I knew nothing about. I was like, what? What is this? I had agreed to play a show on that date. Wait, this is the show that I agreed to. I had no idea that it was even on that theme. And all of a sudden, I was like, literally the poster child for this kind of Black History Month concert event. And I'm okay with representing the community, the black community in Utah if people ask me, and I accept it. But I didn't ask to be the poster child for this event. I didn't even know it was on that theme. And so I got in a heated discussion with the organizer, you know, who came up with the Liz Lampson Quintet. I don't have a quintet. Who got my picture? I didn't provide you with this picture. How did this event come together without me even knowing? And then I railed on him, like, do you program people of color throughout the year, or is this just your token event in February to make you look good, as if you care about dei, diversity, equity and inclusion? Do you actually care about this all year, or is this just something you're doing to make you look good during the month of February? Kind of like people who put up rainbow flags for Pride Month but really don't care, you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah, there are occasions when, I mean, I know. I know I'm the token. I know that I'm often being tokenized. I know it. And I sometimes just accept that, and sometimes I'm upset by it. So I don't know. But going back when I lived in Kansas City, that was the one time where I lived in a place that actually had a large population of black people. And it was a place where I would wander around and didn't feel like I stood out, but that is not the case in our beautiful state.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] And so in terms of a crack in your Mormon testimony, was just you noticing that maybe the church wasn't as diverse, the true church wasn't as diverse as you might have liked it to be? Or what.

Liz Lambson [00:38:42] I mean, in. I mean, a funny example is, like, when we. We moved a lot, you know, I was kind of following along the trajectory of my husband's career from job to job to business school. Or, sorry, internship to job, to business, school to job, to another job, you know, around the country. And so when we move into a new ward, you know, you think, this is. This is where you find family. This is where you. This is the community. Especially when you're moving to a place where you have no family and you don't know anybody. The ward you look to as, like, hopefully, what will become your new family in this new place. But we'd show up and, like, people would assume that, like, I was maybe, like, a foreign person that Sam met on his mission. Kind of like. I mean, if you, like, looked at my dad and his Asian wife, he might be like, oh, it's. He's a GI who met his wife when he was stationed overseas, which is true. And in the Mormon setting, you can often think, like, oh, you married a person of color. Must have been some girl he met on his mission. The ironic thing is I did meet Sam when he was on his mission in Rome, but I was on tour with the orchestra, so it was. I wasn't like a native in that country. I'm not Italian, but. But Sam noticed more than I did that. That people were, like, not. It took people a while to warm up to me, and as a result, warm up to us as a couple.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] And. You mean LDS people?

Liz Lambson [00:40:24] Yeah. Like. I mean, things can get pretty cliquish. I felt like the young women. Young moms who are my age often would not necessarily include me in things, and I always assumed it was because I was, like, an edgy artist. But Sam was more like. Like, aware that, like, they were maybe didn't realize that we have a lot more in common than they might realize just by looking at me. So Ithaca was one of those places where I was. It's like, the. The students at the business school, who are from all over the world, were so cool and so, like, welcoming and inviting to me. But like, the other young moms, like, some of them literally didn't want anything to do with me. Like, they do stuff without inviting me. And I was very aware. Um, but typically, in the wards and relief societies I've been in, most of my friends are with older people, older women. I don't know why. I think there's a lot of. There's. There's an element where in the Mormon Church, I was always looking for mother figures because I didn't have one. So I was always very drawn to older women who'd had children. You know, again, looking for, like, how do you do this? Like, that interview with Stan's mom, like, give me some tips. Give me some support. You've been through this. You know, Can. Can you be my friend and help, like, encourage me as I go on this Mormon mother journey? But, yeah, there's also the. The element of being a convert also creates. I don't know how things are internationally. I think the international church is a bit different perhaps, than the American Mormon Church and the experience here. But I did. There was a BYU professor. He's the guy who wrote Believing Christ Robinson. Yeah. I had him as a teacher, and he said some comment. Sorry, I'm throwing him under the bus. He made some comment about, like, converts not being like. I'm probably not quoting this exactly right, but this is what I got from it. Like, not being, like, real Mormons. It takes a generation. Like, the. The. Like. I don't. But the way that he phrased it, it's like, okay, I'm not a real Mormon through and through. Which is kind of a good point, because I've been trying to be, or I was until very recently, trying to be a certain kind of person that wasn't coming as naturally to me as I hoped. So. So there is also the element that when you're a convert and you join the community, you're not going to have the common connection with the people who come from, like, Mormon pioneer heritage or Mormon ancestry or pioneer ancestry. One of the experiences that I had just a few months ago, that was the first time I was like, I don't think I can go back to church. It was really Relief Society on Pioneer Day. And our. Our war, our Salt Lake City ward had dissolved, as many Salt Lake wards are dissolving. So early last year, our war dissolved and it was split in half and we went to a new ward. I'm not going to say which word it is, you know, hunt these people down. But a wealthier East Salt Lake, very historic building, lots of history, but just a more noticeably wealthy ward. And you know, where the, like, at the ward activity, instead of like, powdered lemonade mixed with water, it's like Izzy sodas and bottled water and sticky buns from the local bakery for Mother's Day. It's not just like a couple Hershey kisses for the moms. It was like box chocolates from Cummings chocolates. Like, good on them for shopping. Local for sure. And those are really good chocolates, but just like, little things. That definitely signaled the wealth of this ward. And it happens to be in the stake where a lot of general authorities grew up or even live. So Pioneer Day Minerally society. And the teacher asked, like, can some of you share. Let's just take a moment and share some of your, your pioneer stories, like your pioneer ancestor stories. And, and these are, you know, people who are related to general authority. It felt a lot to me. Like, tell me the stories of your general authority family members and like, just tell us some nice stories about them. And, and if you'd said that in that ward, you'd probably be able to fill a whole class with like, people's stories of their experiences with general authorities who they're related to or not related or their neighbors or whatever. So then all these women, all these white women start sharing their stories of their, their pioneer ancestors coming into the valley and the hardships that they went through crossing the plains and some miracles, stories of miracles. And I like, lost it. I, at the time, I was not taking my medication and was more emotionally volatile. And I just, I started like sobbing and shaking and yelling at everybody. Not yelling. I'm a pretty soft spoken person. To me, it felt like yelling. But I, I brought the, I brought the conversation to a halt. And I said like, sorry to be like a Debbie Downer, but like, not everyone has this, like, Mormon pioneer ancestry with these miraculous stories of these white angels coming across the plains. Like, how about the inhabitants who are displaced and murdered? How about the slaves who were brought along with them? How about the history of the people of color here? All we're talking about is these white angels. And, and then I'm like, how about my family history? How about the black history in Utah? And I started spilling all this stuff that I would share with the Utah Black History Museum. Like, have you considered that? And then like, how many of you, like, was your grandmother a prostitute? Did your dad shoot himself? We didn't. Like, sir, we haven't. I haven't even like, gotten into that story yet. But I like, went off the rails a little bit. Like, like, this is unreal. And then this tip ticked me off. After the lesson, I had to leave the room. I was like, shaking and sobbing and I went to the kitchen instead of the bathroom to clean up my face because I didn't want anyone to follow me to the bathroom. But they found me anyway. After the lesson, they found me and people were hugging me. And the teacher apologized for taking the lesson in that direction and not recognizing that not everybody has these rosy family histories.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:42] It never occurred to me.

Liz Lambson [00:48:45] And then, like, some woman was like, holding me, embracing me, and she's like, it's okay, Liz. You are a pioneer in Your generation for your family. And I was like, do not use that word for me. That's a word to describe. To describe white colonizers. Like, I'm. I don't want that word applied to me, thank you very much. I didn't say that to her face, but that's what I was thinking. Like, don't call me a pioneer. Yeah, that's not my ancestry. Thank you very much. And then some other sister was talking about, like, oh, like, even if you can't find your slave ancestors for the temp to do temple work for them, like, there are ways. I know that if you. If you try, you can find these names and. And be connected with these people. And I was like, what are you. What are you talking about? Like, I just went home after that, and I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed for breaking down in that. In that. In that circle of very sweet sisters in their cardigans. But after that, I was like, I don't think I can relate with this particular group of people. I mean, it's a different ward. Like, already, the demographics in Utah are not comfortable for people of color. And then if you happen to live in a. Well, depending on where your ward is and what the demographics of that ward are, that's going to affect things as well. And I mean, on the street where we live, I. I mean, I don't know. I don't know of any black people in my neighborhood. Definitely not on my street. And so, like, in the summertime when I'm out gardening in the yard, like, I just think that people assume I'm, like, the hired help, like, that I don't live there. It was the same in Kansas City in the neighborhood we lived in, where. On the house, Steed, it was like, black people can't own this property. So naturally, there weren't a lot of black people in that neighborhood. You know, you want to talk about generational wealth and the impact of these things across generations over time. You know, look at, like, neighborhood demographics, the populations, the neighborhoods, what they look like, what they looked like when they were established and what they look like now. So anyway, I just, you know, people, if they can't see, like, my children in the stroller, what they look like, it's like, oh, are you the nanny? Do you live here? You know, like, it's like, yes, I live here. This is my neighborhood. I'm not the gardener. This is actually my garden. This is. These are my flowers, and just taking care of them. But would you mind connecting a couple

John Dehlin [00:52:01] dots with me on that story? So, so on the one hand, I could see that this, the story could probably apply to many, many parts of the United States. Iowa, Nebraska, North Dakota. Yeah, Lots of places in the South. There's a lot of, you know, white places in America. So even though I can maybe guess what you might say, this is all in the context of kind of your Mormon faith unraveling. So can you just explicitly say how these types of stories, you know, how, how they impacted your, your Mormon testimony as they were happening, what it translated to in your mind in terms of doctrine or expectation.

Liz Lambson [00:52:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Et cetera.

Liz Lambson [00:52:56] Well, this is going back to what I mentioned in part three, which is, you know, what have become my core values over time or some of my highest core values are diversity, equity and inclusion. And then in the church, when I'm seeing countless example after example of conformity or the lack of diversity, inequity and exclusion, it doesn't sit well with me. And the more I would see it, the less comfortable I was. And, and I think it, you know, when I'm, I'm on Ballet West's DEI committee. Diversity, equity, inclusion. And when you're in these groups, it's like you get the, the people of color and you get the LGBT group and we're just put together and like we have some things in common, I guess. And there is like intersectionality where if you've got a LGBT person of color, like, okay, it's all the things. But you know, like, I am very close with that group and demographic as well, in part because we're like fighting for some of the same things

John Dehlin [00:54:16] in

Liz Lambson [00:54:16] terms of equitable treatment, etc, so, you know, it's like in the church, you know, you meet individual people who are like very loving and inviting and say like, you know, we want this place to be welcome for all people. And I really have always been drawn to those open minded people who are all about creating welcoming, safe spaces for people who are different. But like, as hard as those people will work, they're still in a system that doesn't accommodate those people. Like I was saying, like, can a woman perform the marriage of my child to the partner of their choice in this church? The answer is no. If we want to see that, we will have to go elsewhere. You know, there are plenty of people, church members, who would love to attend a wedding of that nature and would be supportive, wildly supportive. And those are, those are awesome people and I'm grateful that they're there. But like, I'm looking for the people who will perform that marriage. Like, let's go next level, you know, like, I want to be with the people who will say, who will stand with me and say, that's just not good enough. Like, I can't, I can't stand by that type of exclusionary, An exclusionary system, an exclusive system. And then, you know, this ties back to that one experience with that professor or the, the bishop at BYU who was like, you know, if you don't feel like you fit in here or you don't belong here, or if this isn't the place for you, if, by, if. If you don't feel like BYU is a good fit for you, maybe you should leave. And that's what it's come to now. Like, you know, if, if it just became so clear over time that, like, the doctrines and teachings of the church are just not in line with my personal values, with what I actually believe. So it doesn't seem to make sense. Like, I love the people. Like I'm saying, there are these amazing people who have these values that I'm talking about who really want to see more diversity in their wards, who want to welcome people, have, you know, be. Be create safe spaces for people who are different, but they're working within a system that's not going to accommodate that them. Like, I mean, we could dive into. To gender and gender roles a little bit. Like I've mentioned that I don't. I've never thought of myself as the most feminine female and. But the church is just built around these gender binaries and these gender role expectations. So like, you know, can you go to the. Like, what if someone pitched the idea. What if I pitched the idea like that you go to the temple and the, and the name cards don't have a color. What if, what if it were like a unisex card or like a. Do we have to gender the experience? What if the men and the women don't have to sit on separate sides of the room? What if I want to go and do temple work for a man who I feel very strongly connected to or something like that, you know, like,

Gender Roles, LGBT Issues, and the Breaking Point

Margi Dehlin [00:58:18] what if women didn't have to wear dresses?

Liz Lambson [00:58:21] Yeah. Or in the temple.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:23] Or in the temple.

Liz Lambson [00:58:24] Yeah. I mean, that's, and that's such a. I mean, what we. I mean, as we've established through these costume changes, like what we wear does make a difference and, and is a statement. But like, can we get deeper in and just say, like, does. Do we have to gender the experience at all? Can we have a. Yes, a white card, a white name card? Does it have to be pink or blue, you know, and. But if you, if you remove that, the whole, the whole thing falls apart. You know, we talk about the. You know, people say, like, well, Liz, watch out. It's a slippery slope. But, like, this particular slope is extra slippery. This mud is the type where you will slide down very quickly if you start questioning something. It. The. The. The structure just crumbles when you pull out just a couple pieces. A couple.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:38] It depends on the binary.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] It's dependent on the binary. Right. The Mormon plan of salvation, the proclamation on the family is as gendered as anything could possibly be.

Liz Lambson [00:59:51] I mean, and so there's no way, you know, and, and this leads to the event that ticked me. That was the. What do you call it? The. There's a word for the, the thing that. Catalyst the, that breaks the. There's a, Something specific to the tipping point or the. Yeah, there's. There's a, There's a, A term that people use.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] Straw that broke the camel's back.

Liz Lambson [01:00:23] Let's get euphemisms.

John Dehlin [01:00:25] Impetus.

Liz Lambson [01:00:26] Yeah, it's the, it's very specific to Mormonism. Maybe it'll come to me, that metaphor that, that.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] But when the shelf broke.

Liz Lambson [01:00:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] Shelf broke.

Liz Lambson [01:00:35] Yes, when the shelf broke.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] Really quick because.

Liz Lambson [01:00:38] Do you want to explain it?

John Dehlin [01:00:39] Well, if this is something that happened in the past few years, I want to go back and just allow you to talk about the November 2015 policy here, because you did talk about having a gay friend or two during part.

Liz Lambson [01:00:59] That's part two, I believe BYU and

John Dehlin [01:01:01] I know we probably talked a little bit about the November policy then, and maybe the reversal that came, I believe, three or four years after that. Yeah, but this would also be a good place to just include whether or not kind of the Mormon shenanigans of 2008 with Prop 8, 2015, with the exclusion policy, or the reversal in 2018, 2019, and at least played some role in the erosion of your testimony prior to the death of, you know. You know.

Liz Lambson [01:01:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] People close to you.

Liz Lambson [01:01:35] Yes. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] And then we can come back to. Yeah, yeah, well, whatever you want. But I mean.

Liz Lambson [01:01:41] Yeah, no, so like LGBTQIA plus all the things. Issues have always been very. Have been very important to me, especially since my friend, my very close friend took his life at BYU shortly after coming out. Review that in episode part two. Yeah, but. And, and early on, when you talk about cracks in your testimony, I, I. My husband tells me that I provided the first crack to his testimony, which is when I had my first B. And I was Watching Glee. And I was so into, like, Chris Colfer's character, Kurt, on Glee. He's the gay kid. And that was a really, it was a milestone role on tv. I believe that Chris Colfer and Darren, trying to remember his last name, those two actors, I believe that was the first teenage boy on screen. Kiss. Boy. Boy kiss on network television ever. So that was, that was a big deal. And I was so enamored by his character. And at the time, I told my husband, like, you know, if any of our kids are gay in the future and, like, don't get married in the temple, that's totally cool with me. Like, I, I, I'm there for it. And like, that was a thing for him. He was like, wait a minute. Like, my wife is saying she doesn't care if our kids get married in the temple. And, and so, you know, like, when I was saying that, when he expressed some doubts and that was like, wait a minute, what does that say about our eternal family relationship?

John Dehlin [01:03:42] Mm.

Liz Lambson [01:03:43] So he was taking that into his mind in terms of relationships with our kids. Wait, how does that work if, you know, my wife is saying it doesn't matter if we're sealed to our kids. What, you know, that's confusing. So that was that. You know, I began kind of, I mean, from very early on when my kids were babies, before, before they were born, before I got married. You know, like, when my friend died, that became an important thing. And actually it may have even been before he died. I remember this specific experience that was amazing and defined life defining. I turned 21 and one of my best friends, who's still one of my best friends now. Um, he's, he's gay. He had to, I think he was suspended from school and had to transfer to the U to finish his degree. Like, what a bummer to, like, have to, like, like, be kicked out of BYU because you're gay. That was the case for him. But when I turned 21, he was like, I'm going to take you for your first clubbing experience. I was finally, like, old enough to go to a club. And so for the first time ever in my life, I, I don't know if I've ever done this since maybe until today, but I, I got like a spaghetti strap black top from the thrift store. I didn't even wear a bra. And we went to the club, but he was worried about me. He's like, I don't want you going home with strangers. I'm going to take you to the gay club. So he took Me to a gay club in Salt Lake City, and I love dancing. I mean, church dances brought me in back in the day. I love dancing, and I wish there were more opportunities for Mormon women to dance. Mormons to dance at all when they're adults. Anyway, he took me to this gay club, and I was having the time of my life, and I went on this stage area and was dancing with some guys, and this young gay guy was like, hey, like, where are you from? And I was like, oh, I go to byu. And he was like, you go to BYU and you're here, like, with us? And he was like, that's so cool that you are here. And he was so touched by the fact that, like, although I was from byu, I was, like, associating with them in. And I wanted to be there, and I was loving it. I don't know. And. And I was with my friend, like, who I. I love. We have a monthly lunch date. And so. And. And I remember at that point thinking, like, that's when I pinpointed that I was one of those people who's like, oh, wait, you're Mormon. Despite xyz. And it's like the. It's like, over time, there have just become more and more of these despites. Like, the. The bag of despites. Oh, Liz, it's so cool that you're Mormon, despite the fact that you're black. It's so cool that you're Mormon, despite the fact that you, like, are close with the LGBT community. It's. It's so cool that you're Mormon, despite the fact that, like, you would love if one of your kids came out as gay down the road, you know, like.

John Dehlin [01:07:28] Or maybe even being politically different than.

Liz Lambson [01:07:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so cool is that you. That you're liberal and progressive, and despite the fact that you're more. Or it's so cool that you dress like that, despite the factor. It's cool. Cool that you're here at this. At this place, in this environment, despite the fact, you know, support Black Lives Matter.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Yes. You know what I mean?

Liz Lambson [01:07:52] All the things. Yeah. It's like, how many of those can you collect before? It's like, clearly, this isn't. Like, this organization doesn't seem to reflect me who I am.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] Um, it's appearing less and less like your tribe, basically, over time.

Liz Lambson [01:08:14] Yeah. And. And. And the thing is, like, as a convert, I was never a member of that tribe. Here's something that I. A comparison.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] I was gonna say, were you ever really a part of the tribe?

Liz Lambson [01:08:29] Right. Okay, here's a comparison that I've, I've made. I, I might compare joining the Mormon church. I mean we talk about high demand religions and the Amish come to mind. The Amish have really cool culture and history. There's so much that's really unique about the Amish people. And when people join the Amish church, they have names for them. They call them seekers. Almost like Harry Potter Seekers. Do you know this?

John Dehlin [01:09:04] Oh no, keep going.

Liz Lambson [01:09:06] So I, I would kind of describe myself as like, okay, I was fascinated with Mormonism as an outsider. Love, like began to fall in love with the culture, the way of life, the homemaking stuff, the canning, the, the road shows, the pageants, the, the history, the, all the things, you know, the. Just a really interesting, fascinating culture and history. I was very drawn to it and, and I might compare it to like, say coming from like a high tech family and then being like, wow, the Amish way of life is really cool. And then kicker introduced Stan fall in love with a, fall in love with someone from the community and follow them there. So it's like, it's as if I had fallen in love. Say a young, modern, tech savvy young woman falls in love with an Amish boy and moves to the Amish community and becomes part of it. And then like, but over time recognizes like, I really like driving fast cars and just like hearkening back to these memories of like riding around in fast race cars with your parents, experiencing things as a child in a much different world and sort of coming to realize like that that's who you were this whole time.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:35] Yes.

Liz Lambson [01:10:37] That that person is still there. And as much as you tried to be that culture, like to insert yourself into it, just recognizing that you'll never be, that you never were, as hard as you try, it's not you. So going back to the Amish, this is really cool. They have terms to describe. There are four types of seekers. So there are checklist seekers who look for certain specifications in the religion so it draws them. There are cultural seekers who are enchanted by the lifestyle of the Amish, more enchanted by the lifestyle than with the religion. There are spiritual utopian seekers who are looking for true New Testament Christianity. And there are stability seekers who come with emotional issues, often from dysfunctional families. This is from Wikipedia. I just have to quote my source.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:51] Interesting.

Liz Lambson [01:11:51] But so checklist seekers, cultural seekers, spiritual utopian seekers, and stability seekers. And you know, if you were to apply this to Mormon converts or to myself as a young person, it's like I fit all of, like, all of those things, you know, like, I was looking for. I was reading the New Testament in high school when Mormonism was introduced to me. I was looking for, like, which is the true church. You know, I was enchanted by the lifestyle of the Mormons. I was looking. I was very drawn to the stability of it, you know, stability seekers with emotional issues from dysfunctional families.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:35] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:12:36] So you can see that, like, how certain religions are so appealing to certain types of people or people coming from specific circumstances. My husband had mentioned that, you know, for missionaries, it's like they're, they're like taught to look for people who are in difficult life circumstances, are going through something difficult because those are, those people are more likely to turn to the church and join the church because it's going to comfort them and meet the need that they're looking for at that time, depending on what they're going through or what their background is. So, you know, I took me a long time to accept that. Like, I think I'll be happier if I just return to the original authentication version of myself. If I just let myself be 100% me with no despites, not like Liz. It's so cool that you're Liz, despite the fact that blank, like, no, let's remove that. Let's just be Liz and that's it. Not Liz, despite anything. Just. Just go back to being like a. The completely original, authentic version of who I am and was and always was.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:17] So when you think about that, in particular, this idea of going back to Liz, do you have a strong sense for who that is or is that someone that you would say you're actually getting to know presently, or both?

Liz Lambson [01:14:35] Both, I would say, because, I mean, I discovered Mormonism at an interesting turning point. I mean, I was, you know, at that age where like, I got in trouble for wearing short shorts and tank tops. And now I'm going back to wearing short shorts and tank tops and remembering how natural and good and fine that is there. I mean, the fact that I am like, wearing what I'm wearing is a good example of sort of a new period of self discovery. I know that people who leave the church are often heavily criticized for, like, oh, you leave the church and now you think you can break all the rules and you can go drinking and you can sleep around, you can wear whatever you want and blah, blah, blah. But like, you know, I, I for one, I really encourage. I mean, life is about having

Margi Dehlin [01:15:50] new

Liz Lambson [01:15:50] experiences and learning from them. I encourage, I would encourage people to take chances and go out on a limb and get to know yourself in the process. Like my short relief society. Talk about the cardigan. Like, consider wearing what you want to wear and see how that feels. Perhaps it's scary. It's scary, but I, you know, like, I tried alcohol for the first time just like a few weeks ago, actually. Okay. The first. My first taste of alcohol was with the grandson of a general, a very high ranking general authority. I will not name any names.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] Certainly not connected with Ballet West. I don't.

Liz Lambson [01:16:50] Stop. Stop it. No name dropping here. No, of course, stop.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:56] Stop now.

Liz Lambson [01:16:58] But, you know, he offered me some whiskey and I was like, what a great opportunity with the grandson of a first presidency member.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:09] You were like, this is. You were like, this is.

John Dehlin [01:17:12] You just narrowed it down to three. We're really just say that was you, not me.

Liz Lambson [01:17:21] I know. Sorry. I was like, what a great. You know, what a memory. What a memory to me moment for sure. So, yeah, we cheer, you know, cheers. Clinking our glasses of whiskey. Gave it a try. Disgusting. So gross. And then.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:39] But now that knowledge is yours. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:17:43] And then just a few weeks ago, had my first experience, like, actually putting down a few drinks to just see what it feels like. And it was terrible. And I don't think I'll ever do it again. I didn't know that. How was I supposed to know that you shouldn't drink when you're taking certain medications? So, yeah, I got very drowsy and dizzy and felt horrible. And also, I just really didn't like the taste of it. Like, it tastes like acetone, like nail polish remover to me. And so, you know, it doesn't matter if it's. If it comes from white grape juice or red grape juice, or if it's mixed with ginger ale or Sprite. Like, it's like adding gasoline to any of those drinks. Like, to me, it tastes like. Like the. The chemical that is alcohol itself to me has a terrible flavor. I would rather have the Shirley Temple without the vodka. That's. That sounds tasty to me. But add. Add the alcohol and it's just gross. So. But at least I tried it. I don't know. I think there was some value to giving it a try. But can I ask you just about

Margi Dehlin [01:18:53] this idea of being Liz, how has that. You. You kind of wearing that and moving forward with that, how has that translated into some of these pain points that you were experiencing before? For example, guilt about being a creative and a mom. Can you talk about that at all if it's changed your relationship with yourself about how you feel about what you need and who you fundamentally are.

Liz Lambson [01:19:26] Absolutely. There's so much peace. I love being me. It's such a good feeling. And for everything about me to be 100% okay, not just, okay, great. I want everyone to feel that way. Just comfortable in your own skin, happy to be you, where nothing's wrong with you. You don't have to like, fix anything. You just you. And it's wonderful. I want everyone to feel that way. It's, you know, it started in high school with like, okay, well, to be Mormon, you need to change this about yourself. Change this. This, this, this, this. These are all things that are wrong. Stop drinking coffee, stop wearing this. Stop, stop doing this. Stop going to see these movies, whatever the long list. And like, like, gosh, I loved coffee before I joined the church. It's so great to like have that flavor back in my life. Oh, I love it. And it's so, I feel like it's so cruel to tell people, sleep deprived parents that they can't have it. Like, I mean, people talk about, I, I didn't know. This is me being ignorant. But I always thought that moral relativism was good. I still think that. And it wasn't until recently that I learned that, like the phrase moral relativism is, is like a bad thing for some, but essentially. But I always thought of Jesus as a moral relativist who like, makes exceptions for people who are different and makes room for the people who aren't, like, following all the orthodox rules that the Pharisees had or what have you. So, you know, like one of these ethical dilemmas says, like, you have a sleep deprived parent in a room with ingredients for dinner on the table and starving children and a cup of coffee. Does the parent stay on the couch miserably tired, unable to drag themselves up to that counter of ingredients to prepare the meal for the hungry child? Or will they say, no, I will not drink the coffee? I refuse. I must stand my moral ground and follow the rule that I have committed to. I will not break the word of, of wisdom. And then the children go to bed hungry. And like, that literally describes my life, especially when the twins were infants. Like, my children were going to bed hungry sometimes because I just didn't have the energy to like, make a good dinner. Like, they just eat like cereal or. I mean, that still happens. I absolutely support cereal for dinner. Please, parents who are struggling, if you think that that's a bad thing, give yourself the cereal for dinner, get out of jail free card.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:53] But within Mormonism, where it's an optimization plan and in your role, you're trying to optimize, optimize, optimize, optimize. Like there is a little bit of that.

Liz Lambson [01:23:05] You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:23:06] I was gonna say said no orthodox Mormon mom ever. You know what I mean?

Liz Lambson [01:23:11] I think there's a lot. I think there is more room for that now. I mean, the church put out some nice videos of like the struggling moms, a little more human, you know, but

John Dehlin [01:23:22] that's only after hemorrhaging members. They kind of backs her against. It's not modern day revelation. It's literally a response to massive hemorrhaging of members. Doing market research about why people are leaving, finding out that so many women are depressed, suicidal, leaving because of all the perfectionistic demands and responding to it, you know, in almost like a business secular way. After doing customer research instead of through revelation.

Liz Lambson [01:23:56] Yeah, I mean, like, I will just throw this out there. Like I began drinking coffee maybe a year and a half ago. I resigned just like a month and a half ago. So like, but, but adding that to my life, like improved the quality of life for my children. Like almost more than it did for me. Like the afternoon cup that would get me through making dinner and bedtime, that has improved their health, you know, like, I don't, like, I don't care about me even. It's like, it's that like, why, why can't we just do what's gonna make life better?

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Like they could teach us correct principles and let us govern ourselves. Is that what you're saying?

Liz Lambson [01:24:53] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:55] But also there's that idea too, of allowing yourself to have a need and fill the need yourself.

John Dehlin [01:25:03] Deciding how to fill the need yourself.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:05] Yeah. So you're kind of turning the deprivation service, you know, model of the kind of Mormon mother on its head a little bit where it kind of, I think for me anyway, it kind of glorified selflessness, like this absence of self. I don't need. I just don't need. I show up and I have endless amounts to. It turns it on its head of this idea of like, wait, what if I actually fulfill my own needs and it actually helps me show up in a way that translates and translates to everyone. Everyone's better for it.

Liz Lambson [01:25:44] Yeah, I mean, people, I mean, it's been clear from the start that like, if I'm working, if I'm allowed my creative outlet, if I get to play music or whatever like that I'm, of course it makes me a better mom. I need that. But there, there are these Other elements like the coffee and like, I, I was able to, I mean, I was drink. I had come. I remember coming home from the temple and like, having my cup of coffee and talking about how great the temple experience was. And my husband Sam was like, how are you? How are you drinking the coffee and telling me about how great your temple? Like, how, how is that, how can you, how can all those things exist in your mind at the same time? Whereas he was hiding the coffee maker when his parents were coming over, like, putting it up in a closet because he didn't want them to know. But, you know, it's. It was much easier. It's much easier for me because again, it's like I'm returning to like kind of this original version of me. Whereas for someone who has a Mormon family, Mormon ancestry comes. Is very deeply from the culture. It's not as easy to walk away. There's a. There are a lot more strings attached. I mean, like, we were talking though, about LGBT issues. Rewinding a bit.

John Dehlin [01:27:21] I want you to forgive me because I'm gonna ask one more follow up question just because we're on the topic, okay? And then we'll come right back to lgbt. Is that okay? So I am struck by the irony that you're a teen without parents forcing an oppressive religious system upon you, with a dad begging you not to join an oppressive religious system. So you have every opportunity to just be Liz in your teens. And somehow you. You feel like you need something like Mormonism so that you can be whole and what you need to be, so you join it by your own accord against all, you know, pressure and influences from your family and that you felt like you needed it. Because if the answer. Fast forward to now. If the answer is to shed all that garbage and just be Liz, I'm like. And you're. Of course you're not the only one. Like, I call the children of secular parents cult fodder. Like, I have met so many converts to Mormonism who were raised by secular parents. There's something weird about the human experience.

Liz Lambson [01:28:48] The seekers, the types of seekers.

John Dehlin [01:28:51] Yeah, but I mean, isn't that weird? I guess I'm just thinking, you know. Well, I'll just say it.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:58] I mean, you know, why do we have an appendix? Why do we have vestigial organs? Why do I have a deviated septum? Like, if you believe there's a creator, and of course you may or may not, but like, for those who believe there's a creator, there's so many poorly engineered parts of the human body, that if you believe in a creator, you're like God. What were you thinking? With, you know, certain designs, it's like that with the human experience. I'm just thinking, why are we created such that when we're teens or young adults, we seek out these systems when, when we get to the end of that abusive system? The answer is, is to just be you in the first place. Why can't we just be us in the first place? That's my question.

Liz Lambson [01:29:41] When you're that young, this is when you only think in black and white. You only. You can't think. You can't reason with the complexities. You don't know them yet. There's. There's a level of innocence. And I will remind you that I came from a family with a, with violence, dysfunctionality, generational racial trauma. Like these things that I. That I saw, did not see in the Mormon families. So again, like, like the type seekers I was looking for. I was the probably above all, the stability seeker.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:20] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:30:20] The one looking for stability coming out of a very dysfunctional, violent atmosphere.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:29] And literally during this time, you have no closure around this major trauma that just happened. Your mom is gone.

Liz Lambson [01:30:39] I was looking for mom.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:40] You have no sense for like, why that happened. There's no context, there's no. So you're like actively as a teenager living non closure.

Liz Lambson [01:30:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:52] In a really traumatic way. Like, to me, it makes so much sense that you were trying to get your needs met.

Liz Lambson [01:31:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:00] And that's all any of us are trying to do.

Liz Lambson [01:31:03] I was looking for peace. I was looking for people who loved me. I was looking for people to take care of me. Honest. Honest to God, if you're there. Like, I was looking for people who would like, feed me. Like, not just spiritually, but like physically. Like, like the biggest, the, the times in my life when I missed having a mother figure the most was when I got married in a. The temple or the marriage prep class. Did I tell you this story about the teacher being like, this moment is really the groom. You need to step out of the way. This moment is for the bride and her mother to plan the wedding of their dreams. And Sam had to leave the room and broke into tears. He was feeling my pain. Like, there is. I don't have my mom to like, plan my wedding with me. Like, that's not, that's not happening. And then the other time was when I had babies and I'd see, you know, other young moms whose moms would come and stay with them for sometimes weeks and Help. Just help and be there. And then continually, you know, moving on, seeing how close they were with their moms, and their moms would watch their kids so they could go on a date or whatever. And like, whereas I hired nannies, it just became clear that if I want that flexibility or freedom, like, I'm not going to find. Yeah, that from my immediate family, so. Or I don't have a mom who's going to fly in, stay with me for a couple weeks.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:43] That's so powerful because that really shows how grief is ongoing.

Liz Lambson [01:32:50] Oh, yeah. The hole will never be filled. Never.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:53] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:32:54] Never.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:56] Yeah. It's like you're having to grieve your mom in all these different stages as

Liz Lambson [01:33:03] you go through your life. I mean, someone recommended the book Crying in H Mart to me, like, oh, it's about a girl who loses her Korean mom and she's an American dad. And I think you might like it. I might like it. It's a story about this Korean girl whose mom dies and she loses her mom and is mourning and like, connects with Korean cuisine and food and that's how she likes. Can remember her mom. And like, I'm like that every time I. Every time I eat a freaking piece of kimchi, it's gonna remind me of my mom. I can't go to a Korean restaurant all casual like everybody else. As if it's just like a fun, cultural, yummy experience. Like, that's me sitting at the dining table with my mom, feeding me octopus legs and lettuce wrapped rice with gochujang and anchovies. Like, that is taking me back to that. Like, I can't. I will never not be reminded of her. I would. I was at Smith's just days ago, just a few days ago, looking at house plants. My mom was really into house plants. I really like them too. She's really into floral patterns. I really like them too. I'm wearing floral right now. And then this. This woman passed by me who looked Korean but older. And she looked like. For a moment I thought, like what? Like, she looked like how I might imagine my mom might look at this age tree. So after this, right, it's like, oh, the ghost of my mother just passed by. It's. It's like unnerving. And it can happen at any moment, anytime. These reminders. I mean, my. The stress and anxiety around abandonment. We didn't. Haven't talked about that much, but abandonment issues. Like, the summer that I got married, like, I want. I. My husband was my new protector. He was my. My care My. My per. My person who was supposed to be there for me. Right? Like, so I wouldn't be alone. And even the sound of his keys when he picked them up to leave the apartment in the morning where he would leave me alone, the sound of his keys jingling brought me immediate anxiety because he was leaving me. He was going to leave me. And, like, sure, he'd come back around dinner time, but, like, I knew that for those hours while he was at work, I would be alone. And I still, like, he. He was going to accept, like, an internship with, like, Bain Consulting or something that would involve a lot of travel. And I was like, no, I'm not marrying you if you are becoming a consultant, because I want to spend time with you. And, like, you have to know this about me, that I. I really struggle with abandonment issues and feeling left behind

John Dehlin [01:36:00] and, like, it was my first job after my birthday.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:04] And you know what you did travel.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] I did abandon her all the time. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:36:09] Sucks, right?

John Dehlin [01:36:10] Sorry.

Liz Lambson [01:36:11] So then, like, you know, later, the times when our marriage, I think, was the most unstable for me is the times when Sam had to travel a lot for work. That's when I was really like, this isn't working for me. But so, you know, now I'm not as. I don't freak out as much when I hear the jangle of keys, but honestly, I still do sometimes. But now it's more like when I see him packing his suitcase and when I hear the door closes, he's catching his ride to the airport, I have, like, these moments of like. Like I'm not only. And I'm not totally alone, but like, I have all five kids. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:54] You know, it's a little similar.

Liz Lambson [01:36:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:57] Like, I can see like. Like it makes all the sense. Liz, is what I want to say as you're talking, like, even the. The idea that your mom. Didn't your mom initially say she was going to go visit. Visit and see family?

Liz Lambson [01:37:13] Yeah, we thought.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:14] And so you had in your brain, like, she'll be back. She's going for this reason. So it totally makes sense that even if a person has a reason, that in your primal brain, like your development brain, it's sort of like sometimes people say they're coming back and they don't.

Liz Lambson [01:37:31] And. Yeah. And what. What I feel. And I felt Sam went on his first business trip just to, like, last week. And what I feel is, like, when I can't see the person, it's like they don't exist anymore. It's like he's disappeared. It's like, he's totally gone. And. And. And that's what happened, you know? Yeah. Like, when my mom left, it was like, does she exist anymore? Like, the. Because there's this truth that, like, maybe she does. She might. I have no idea. But there's a chance that she's somewhere out there in the world again. Like, what if she was that person who passed me and said.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:13] Exactly.

Liz Lambson [01:38:14] So it's like they're out there somewhere, but when I can't see them, there's, like, this disconnect. So I feel that when my husband travels, it's like he just disappeared. He's totally gone. Like, I'm suddenly in this house as if he never existed. It's. It's like. It's very jarring for me. Over and over.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] Yeah. And. Well, first of all, that was so powerful for me, and I know it was for Margi, so thank you for being willing to share that, because that's. That's as raw and as vulnerable as it can kind of get. It's just core feelings of abandonment.

Liz Lambson [01:38:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] And as we're. As we're applying it to the church and why. Oh, yeah, go ahead.

Liz Lambson [01:39:03] But. But that's one of the cool things about Relief Society. Like, I don't know if I could have gotten through the childbearing years without the Relief Society support for them to show up and bring me meals. After the having the twins, like, people rallied, and like I said, there was that sister who, like, volunteered her time, five hours a week so that I could do whatever I needed to do. And because they just knew, like, they're. They're. I. I think I complained about the element of, like, the older generation being like, oh, I had nine kids. Suck it up, you know, But. But at the same time, I had nine kids, and I know how hard it is to have babies and to be nursing. So let me bring you a meal. Let me support you. So there is that. Like, the Relief Society is there for you. I don't know how I would have fared through the childbearing years without the support of the Relief Society. In the absence of having a mother or, like, a sibling or something, like, coming to. Like, being there for me at that level of involvement, with that level of involvement. So, like, it's sort of a. There's the. There's the. There's the. John, why did I join the church as a teenager? Survival. You're trying to survive.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:25] Yes.

Liz Lambson [01:40:26] There's. Survival instincts. You talked about this last night with John Larsen. The things you do when you're just trying to stay alive. That was me at the end of college thinking, if I go on the road as a traveling artist, there's literally a chance I won't survive. I could potentially take my own life. Given the mental health state that I'm in, It would be better for me. It would increase my odds of survival if I marry and create a stable family life for myself and find a spouse who has health insurance who can help take care of me so that I will survive, so that I can literally survive. During the childbearing years, those Relief Society women bringing food to our family were helping us literally survive. And this is the interesting thing. Last year, 2022 was I the beginning of the year, I said, this is my year to shift from surviving to thriving. I was finally at a point where I wasn't just hanging onto things to stay alive just for the. Just for survival. And it occurred to me that, like, I think part of why a big part of what has held me to the church is that it's. It's been one of the mechanisms or the, The. The sources that I've turned to, to help me survive. But now I think I'm strong enough that I could not only survive without it, I believe that I might thrive without it.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:05] So, yeah, I love that so much. Yeah, I love that so much. It makes like, what if John, in actuality, the church showed up as a life preserver?

Liz Lambson [01:42:19] I think so.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:20] And she was able to grab it and hold on while, you know, in moments to kind of stabilize, to gain skills to the point that you could let go and actually realize I can swim on my own. I got it.

Liz Lambson [01:42:34] Yes. I feel that now, like, I don't need, you know, like how I talked about the pre. The bishop or the priesthood leader becoming the middleman between me and God. It's like I don't need that middleman anymore. One of the things I want to say, one of the things that kept me from leaving for a long time was that I thought that leaving the church would mean leaving God and discovered because at one point when I first joined, it felt like the church and the Book of Mormon and the things I was learning were drawing me closer to God. But then as the more and more untruths and false doctrines worked their way in, it began to push me away from God. The mists of darkness provided by Mormonism itself was separating me from the truth of the God that I got a glimpse of at a younger age. The more I used to be really frustrated with the evangelical Christians in My high school. Because they'd be like, no, God doesn't. God this, God doesn't like that God says this. And I'd be like, who are you to say, like to put words in God's mouth that way? Like, how. How do you know? Like, who are you, like, you 16 year old member of such and such church to say that that's like the definitive. That's what God is, that those. What you. What's coming out of your mouth, that those are the words of God? I mean, it's really confusing, but it's why I'm losing my train of thought.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:37] It's just.

Liz Lambson [01:44:37] Yeah. Like, over time, like the God that I once felt so connected to began to like, kind of morph into something completely unrecognizable. And that leads to the revelation to leave.

John Dehlin [01:44:55] Okay, really quickly. I still want to make this final summary thought. And this is me just trying to process everything and make sense of it because that's what I'm always trying to do. And we also need to talk about the LGBT stuff because I stopped you before we got there. But let me just, Let me. If it's all right, let me just kind of. This is an aha moment for me that I'm hoping listeners. You occasionally, listeners of viewers say, John, we. We value and you can sometimes share, you know, a particular thought. What I'm showing on the screen now, and you can't see it is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And basically it shows at the bottom of this triangle, you know, kind of core. And this isn't even really a good. But. But basically the idea is in my. In Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it starts out with your very core needs, like shelter, food, water, sleep, and like core physical and psychological needs. Right. And then it kind of. Then as you start going up the triangle, there's safety. And then that's just like, you know, not getting killed, which you were also looking.

Liz Lambson [01:46:08] I was looking for that.

John Dehlin [01:46:09] Yep. And then you go up from that. It's belonging in love, which again, I think, you know. You were looking for that.

Liz Lambson [01:46:19] Yeah, these are my friends.

John Dehlin [01:46:21] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:46:21] That were showing me great amounts of love that I wasn't finding.

John Dehlin [01:46:25] Right. And then you go up from that. It's kind of self esteem. And, and. And I think that's probably applicable.

Liz Lambson [01:46:35] Oh, they telling me you're a divine daughter of God. You don't have to feel crummy about yourself. Who cares if your mom left? We think you're great.

John Dehlin [01:46:42] Right.

Liz Lambson [01:46:42] You know?

John Dehlin [01:46:43] Yep. And these are all foundational These are all core. And then if you can achieve all of that, then it goes up to cognitive, which is where the intellect starts kicking in. And then above that is a word you'll love. Esthetic, Right? Yeah. And then self actualization. And what I think, you know, that's

Margi Dehlin [01:47:06] the process right there.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] Yeah. And I think, you know, and, and even with the John Larsen episode last night, I. One of the things I was grateful we were trying to do was to show compassion and empathy and even gratitude for the Mormon Church because it's so, it's so common when you lose your faith or when you leave it to say it's awful, it lied to me, it abused me, blah, blah, blah, it saved me. Right. But it's, but, but I. What I'm trying to tease out is up to what point was it useful and helpful and then at what point did it stop being useful? What it sounds like is when you needed safety, shelter, belonging, friendship, love, self esteem, food. Right. Or even the relief society needs casseroles and help with. It was totally rock solid there for you. Yes. Like, and it's super helpful and life saving way almost.

Liz Lambson [01:48:07] Yeah. All those times we moved and I needed a community. Bam.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] Yeah. And in that sense, maybe many of us, if not all of us, just need to remember to hold a space of gratitude for what the church offered us.

Liz Lambson [01:48:24] I. Yes, I love Mormons. I love Mormonism. My, My oldest son, he's, you know, it's been difficult for him as we stopped going to church and he was, he was talking about, I was like, you can go to this young Men's activity if you want. They're having a game night. I don't want you to miss your friends, you know, if you want to go be with them, I'm totally there. And he's like, well, I just don't know what to say to them. Like, oh, my mom hates Mormons now. So. And I stopped him and I said, no, no, no, this is not about hatred. I love the Mormons. I wouldn't have joined the church if I didn't love them so much. I still, like, am so fascinated by the culture, the history. Joseph Smith is such an intriguing character. There's so much about him that I think is really just, I mean, interesting. And so I told him, please memorize this line. Not to indoctrinate, you know, I'm. Now I'm indoctrinating him with new things. But I said, please memorize, like, say this after me. My mom doesn't agree with some of the doctrines that's really what it comes down to. It's not the people. I love them. I reached out when I resigned. I texted quite a few people and said, I won't be coming back, but please, let's still be friends. Like, please. You know, I had my. My visiting teacher, they don't call it that. My ministering sister. When I told her that I wasn't coming back, she said she's the one other woman of color that I met in this ward. I'm quoting her. I didn't say that she said this. She said, how can you leave me with all the crazy white people? Not all white people are crazy. I'm just gonna say that. I didn't say it. She said it. But yeah, I know that, like, I am missed and I miss them. I love those people. I still want to maintain friendships and close relationships. I mean, because these are people who saved me in my times of need. And I hope I can still be there for them in that way. I hope that I can still be a friend to them in the way that they have been to me. I don't want to lose these relationships. They're very important and special to me. I got a Christmas card from Stan's family, you know, just this Christmas. And like, I see now that there are a lot of things we don't have in common. Politics and, you know, all kinds of things. But, like, I still, like, cherish them. I really do.

John Dehlin [01:51:14] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [01:51:16] Stan's grandma just passed away and I read her obituary and it's like, wow, like, what a woman. I think like 52 grandkids or something like that. Like, pretty amazing.

John Dehlin [01:51:29] Yeah, well, that's.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:31] Can I just add a little something to that? Because I. I do appreciate this idea of gratitude and that with some people's stories, for them, the church saved them or an aspect or really was what rose up as a resource for basic needs. Okay, I'm just going to. Yes, and that. Because that can still be true and it can still have overall caused harm for that human being that they have to reckon with, work through. And so I always, you know. Cause I'm very non. I treat non binary.

John Dehlin [01:52:13] Just like a loving parent can cause harm.

Liz Lambson [01:52:15] Yeah, totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:16] That's right. And a really emotionally immature one or abusive one can have moments of showing up in love. And so recognizing that things are complicated and nuanced and overall messy, I think is so important for people that we can't just kind of, for the most part say, well, it's this or it was that, it's that. Oftentimes It's a whole lot of things that can be really oftentimes conflicting to hold inside.

Liz Lambson [01:52:51] Totally. I mean, I talk about how like, what a loss it was to lose my mom. But if you recall in episode one, I'm sure pretty think I mentioned that I was actually relieved when she left because she was so hard on me. Her expectations, like, I mean, she's the one who turned me into a perfectionist with her expectations for my performance in every area of my life. Like, I mean, what would that relationship have looked like actually over time had she stayed? It may not have been very positive. So yeah, it's complicated. Like, I was both honestly kind of happy that she left at the time, but I'm recognizing that there were also a lot of things I missed out on not having her in my life. But yeah, it's, I mean, like, I mean, I think you use the term like abusive parent. The church can be like an abusive parent. Like, yeah, they're like, okay, the church helped me survive my parents, my dad helped meet a lot of my needs. But then, you know, there were of course, damaging interactions that I'm still processing and trying to recover from.

John Dehlin [01:54:11] Yeah, yeah. And that's just ironic because there's nothing else. What else is stepping up? Take your average high school kid who feels lost. What else besides high demand religions are stepping in to provide resources for teenagers in crisis than churches? And I guess I wish either the human experience or society could develop other organizations to step in and provide teens what they need besides high demand religions that are just going to punt problems forward and lead to future trauma.

Liz Lambson [01:54:51] Well, I mean, come back to money. Like, the church has the money to provide a lot of resources. I mean, that's, that's just me, like, crawling towards the nice thing. I mean, one of the young women's activities that I went to in high school, something I'd never experienced before, it was like a pampering spa night with like scrub facials, masks, nail painting. Like. Like who what? Like, I had never been spoiled like that. And, but, and, and who's paying for that? The young woman's fund.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:26] What?

Liz Lambson [01:55:27] Like the church paid for my face mask that night as a visitor. And like, or maybe we should say

Margi Dehlin [01:55:33] the members paid for this.

Liz Lambson [01:55:35] Oh yeah, I'm just kidding. No, no, it's true. Like, where does the money come from? But, and then like when I was in, I became a young women's leader. I was in young women's presidencies a couple times and it was super frustrating because I was like, this is Just the party planning committee, like, it was like the office where I'd be like, how about green balloons? And then Angela in the office is like, green is a horish color. But they wouldn't say it quite that meanly. But there's, you know, all these, like little passive aggressive comments. And in the young women's party planning, like, it's just like we were just. And that's kind of, I mean, it's kind of cool. The youth program is very well supported and they have the funding to do like, all kinds of fun activities, and I benefited from that. So, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of fun draws.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] Yeah, you know, it's just, it's just ironic and it's, it's just paradoxical for me. But this is your experience that I guess at some point you, if the church does its job and really helps you move up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it kind of in a sense pushes you, Pushes you out.

Liz Lambson [01:56:55] It does.

John Dehlin [01:56:55] Because at some point you got all your material needs met. You've. You've got your family needs met, your social needs met, your temporal needs, your psychological needs. And then all of a sudden you can care about aesthetics and social justice and your own self actualization. And in that sense, the church very unintentionally pushes you out and says, time for that bird to leave the nest. And I'm going to say, isn't that weird that the church, if it does its job right, results in you leaving it?

Liz Lambson [01:57:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] And then isn't it weird, sad that the church can't figure out how to develop a space to keep those people that are ready for self actualization? Why does self actualization have to involve leaving the church? That got you to the point where you were ready for self actualization. Isn't that a little bit ironic? No. Or is that just the human experience?

Liz Lambson [01:57:53] Well, I. I think that all of us have an inner child and we want to be taken care of. And so I think that, I mean, I don't want to say that the church is built to just for children, but it kind of like, Yeah, there is a point where, where you think, maybe I don't need someone to hold my hand through all of this. Maybe, like, I mean, I have a friend who, she manages a lot of people and she's like, these older women, it's like they want me to hold their hand through everything. And it's so frustrating. And I told her, like, well, do you realize, like, the generation that they come from, like, women have Been. How do you pronounce this? Infantilized.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] Yeah, infantilized.

Liz Lambson [01:58:49] Infantilized. Like these older women, especially in their generation, have been treated like children for their entire lives by their husbands, by their church leaders. So of course they're turning to you to like, hold their hand through every step of what they're supposed to be doing, because that's, that's just how they were raised to be. And so, yeah, you know, as a, as a woman in the church, I'm realizing, like, wait a minute, I, I do think I'm quite capable of doing what the priesthood holders are. We could get into women in the priesthood, but like, yeah, the church tells

John Dehlin [01:59:36] a 45, 50 year old woman what she wears to church, whether she can show her shoulders, what beverages she can and can't drink. Like, yeah, it, it infantilizes all of us.

Liz Lambson [01:59:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:49] And at some point you don't want or need that anymore.

Liz Lambson [01:59:51] Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, there's a point where, like, you can, I mean, yeah, the idea of, like, teach you the correct principles and then make your own decisions. Like, like that moment when I came back from the temple and was drinking my coffee and my husband was like, what? How? But I'm like, well, I've decided that coffee is the right thing for me. And it's not like a moral dilemma for me at all. It's just a choice that I made that feels very right for me. So I don't even have to. It's not something that I'm even concerned about and, you know, leading to, I don't know, is it time to talk about the revelation? To go.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] Yeah, I'm sorry. Thank you for letting me explore that. I hope it wasn't a total waste for the listeners. The things we have to talk about are the lgbt. Go ahead, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:53] And your dad.

John Dehlin [02:00:54] Your dad. Yeah. Finishing the cliffhanger.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:56] Right, the cliffhanger.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] And then the other place you were going to go.

Liz Lambson [02:01:01] Writing the letter.

John Dehlin [02:01:02] Writing the letter. So take, take it in whatever order you want. Thank you for letting me explore that. Yeah, I appreciate it.

Father's Death and Eternal Families Doctrine

Liz Lambson [02:01:08] Well, I think chronologically, if we pick

John Dehlin [02:01:11] up at that cliffhanger, is that before or after lgbt?

Liz Lambson [02:01:16] Before.

John Dehlin [02:01:17] Okay.

Liz Lambson [02:01:20] I mean, I, I said it. I already said it. My dad shot himself. Like, he, he died by suicide. And that was a really. This was two years ago? Almost exactly two years. January 5th, the day before the insurrection. He would have gone nuts over that news, watching it on Fox News, his station.

John Dehlin [02:01:48] Wait, as a black man.

Liz Lambson [02:01:49] Oh, yeah, yeah. My dad's an anomaly because he was the most. Like, the most racist black man I know. Anyway. I mean, look at the way that we were raised away from the black people.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:02] So he internalized.

Liz Lambson [02:02:03] Oh, yeah. And then, like, I internalized it as well. I mean, you can see I married a white man. Yeah, I made that choice. Like, yeah, he was. And. And his affinity for guns and gun rights. Like, gosh, you know, I. I mentioned, like, that our last. One of our last arguments was about my kid finding a loaded gun under the couch. And, like, I went to Colorado Springs, back to my childhood home, and I was helping Claire clean up all his stuff, pack up all his things, go through all the things. And I was going through the. His stack of T shirts, and, like, I pulled out one that says, like, a T shirt that said, you control your kids, I'll control my guns. And it was like, dude, you're dead. And we're still arguing about this. Like, give me a break. Like, man. Like, anyway, I mean, that's. We could. That's a whole story. Read the book, come back and read my memoir next year to learn more about that experience. But the. You know, when someone dies, that's. A lot of times people question their faith and reassess their core beliefs. When you lose someone or you go through a major life change, like a divorce or a death or something like that. And so it was definitely a time when I was thinking about the concept of eternal families again. And, you know, the night. The night before my dad's funeral, the, like, early in the wee hours of the morning. So it's technically the morning, I think it was about 2am My one first cousin that I know who's alive called me in the middle of the night and just, like, was dumping all this stuff on me. This is how I learned about my grandmother being a prostitute and some stuff about my dad's childhood that was just horrifying to learn about. Like, you learn. It's amazing the things you learn about a person once they're dead. Like, when you're going through their stuff, when you're reading old letters or notes or finding old pictures or hearing stories that people were afraid to tell when they were alive, it's amazing the things you learn. And then it, like, created all of a sudden this, like, greater compassion for who he was and what made him the way he was and, like, why he Even. Why his life ended the way that it did based on just his. His experiences and the traumas that he experienced. You know, how that affected him and then in turn, how that affected me and but, you know, when someone dies, you think about. You start reflecting on the nature of eternity a little bit, where people go when they die. And here's a thing. Like, my dad and I didn't have the best relationship at times. It was totally. I mean, they were abusive. Like. And then when. Take for example, the father of the family where he killed his children in. What are you from. Enoch.

John Dehlin [02:05:41] Enoch.

Liz Lambson [02:05:42] Enoch.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] I think.

Liz Lambson [02:05:43] And there was some big backlash when his obituary was published, and it was just very rosy and talking about his great relationship with his kids and, like, how. What a great dad he was. And so you get that when people die, like, it's a. It is a great time to reflect on the good things. The good memories fill their obituary with all the nice things you can think of. I wrote my dad's obituary. It's not really fun. And then a few months later, I wrote his sister's obituary. Like, I came home from my dad's funeral, and then my son's piano teacher died of COVID It was just like a season of death. Just like, people dying. Yeah. And. But, like, despite all of the kind of good memories that I was trying to come up with and the good things, as I was writing his obituary, like, I didn't shed a tear. I, I. Not even at his. The funeral itself, I was just, like, stone cold. And like, I realized, like, in Mormonism, it's these eternal. There's so much emphasis put on these eternal relationships and families being sealed together. Why isn't there room for us to just say goodbye and move on? We don't all have to be connected. There are plenty of people, family, friends, who come into your life for a season and a time and a purpose. And I think it's absolutely okay to let them go and move on. And you don't have to hold hands for all of eternity. It's okay to say goodbye.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:35] Even if they're family.

Liz Lambson [02:07:36] Even if they're family.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Yeah. To some, I. I don't think about this enough. To some, the teaching of eternal families could be traumatizing and a nightmare. Yeah, we don't think about that enough.

Liz Lambson [02:07:51] No. Yeah, absolutely. Like, and so, I mean, and that's. They make room for that in the doctrine by saying, well, if a person sinful or evil, then you won't be sealed together. But it, But. But you try to throw in those rules, and then all of a sudden you're being separated from people who did minor things, but you still love them. You know, like, oh, that, that girl who masturbated and now can't get married in the temple. Oh, no, we're not sealed together. Like, dang it. I really liked her. Now we can't hang out in the celestial kingdom, so it's. You know. But then you get down to things where people are violent and murderous and, like, yeah, of course you won't be sealed to those people. You. You don't have to. You won't be together. You won't be in the same celestial mansion together.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] It always comes down to Heavenly Father's gonna make it all right. And if that's true, then what are the. Why are the stakes high now if Heavenly Father's just gonna make it all right?

Liz Lambson [02:08:48] Like I was saying, like, what's up with us not focusing on the quality of our. Our family relationships or our relationship relationships in this life right now? Why do we let things like, my son is gay, and so I'm going to exile him, and we. You are no longer a part of our family. And then, yet, like, wait, what? Are you supposed to somehow find your way back to each other in the eternities? What about the quality of your relationship in this life right now? Like, can we find a way to love each other at full capacity now instead of waiting for when we're, like, perfected in the next life? But, you know, like I'm saying, though, that's a bit of a tangent, but, like, I really think it's okay if we're not all connected. I thought it was so interesting that you brought up something recently where, like, people there. There, like, aren't enough names to do in the temple. Like, they're just repeating names and, like,

John Dehlin [02:09:53] finding ways to, like, Hitler and Eva Braun have each been baptized and had their endowments done and been sealed together, like, over 10 times. I mean, that's wrong on so many levels. And I don't mean to distract by invoking Hitler or Eva Braun, but it's just the church has run out of names over and over and over again. It is not tracked the. The ordinances tied to people's names. And so by a factor of like, 8 to 10, most temple work has been a complete waste of time in terms of actually delivering ordinances that mattered. Yeah, you could say it's all fine because it's transforming the lives of the members. Yeah, but there's a lot of time and money and energy that could have been redirected towards, to your point, making relationships better now, but to a different point. Healthy, clean water, literacy, poverty, abuse. Yeah, it could be a huge waste of time.

Liz Lambson [02:10:55] You know, you get to the doctrinal motivation. And the way that it was explained to me when during my conversion experience was like, some of the most important work is that all of us are sealed together from Adam and Eve. Like the whole, whole human family will be sealed together. Like we have to baptize everyone who's ever lived, ever needs all of the ordinances performed for them, which is a lofty goal. But that just seems so contrary to the whole plan of salvation outlined with agency and choice as an element. Like, not all of us are choosing that. I, I mean, very, very early on at, When I was at byu, I chose, in my mind, I chose. What are the kingdoms again?

John Dehlin [02:11:50] Terrestrial, celestials, the highest, terrestrials, the medium, telestials, the lowest. And then there's outer darkness.

Liz Lambson [02:11:57] Okay. So the middle one, terrestrial, terrestrial. I was like, I think that's going to be a good fit for me because people are like, you'll go where you're comfortable. Right? And I was like, I don't think I'm going to be comfortable in the celestial kingdom with these people. I don't think that's going to be a good fit for me. So I, I decided that, like, you know, what celestial kingdom isn't for me. I decided that even before I got married because just like, what it takes in by Mormon standards to get there just didn't feel comfortable. Doesn't seem like my kind of club or desirous. Yeah. Like I'm saying, like about the feasting in the temple, sitting in the celestial room. Like, it is a lovely, beautiful country club setting. It's really a nice place. But like, I feel better about picnicking on the lawn with the lessers. I'm gonna just be one of them.

John Dehlin [02:13:01] And then you think about what Jesus would probably want to do. What do you want to be in an ornate chandelier, you know, just. Yeah. Or would he want to be with the poor, you know, outcasts.

Liz Lambson [02:13:13] Yeah. You know, I mean, and I was labeled as BYU as an adulteress. And he was very friendly to the adulteresses.

John Dehlin [02:13:21] Adulterous. For. For masturbating.

Liz Lambson [02:13:23] Yeah. Right. For having sex with myself. Can't get over that one. Still recovering from that one. Yeah. It's just all. There's so many incongruencies.

John Dehlin [02:13:38] That's powerful. I'm so sorry about your dad. How.

Liz Lambson [02:13:41] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:13:41] Was that super hard? I imagine it was super hard.

Liz Lambson [02:13:44] I mean, like, it felt a lot. Like the one time that I cried a few weeks after he passed away was a moment when I was just feeling Sorry for myself. I was feeling like I don't have parents anymore. I've lost both my parents. And what made me cry a little bit was the old feeling I had when I was a kid, which was that neither of them loved me enough to stay. They chose to go. Both of them. They chose to leave me. Like there was nothing about me that was enticing enough to keep them around, you know, like, my dad never made it out to see me perform at the ballet. I really wanted him to, and he was very proud of me. He did want me to send me. Send him the programs for all the performances that I was in, and I never did. I have a stack of programs that I meant to mail him, and I didn't. He was always very proud of me. I don't doubt that or question that at all. He constantly would tell us how proud he was of us as his kids, like, how accomplished we were. Especially when you look at where he came from in his childhood and his background, to have all of his kids, have all three of his kids graduated from college and are doing really well and are happy and healthy, and that's more than he could have hoped for, given his background, the poverty that he came from. But, you know, it's hard, like, when someone chooses to take their life and you have a close relation. Well, I mean, as close as. We weren't super close, but I'm still like, he was my father and I was his. His daughter. But, you know, you just think about, like, how there is, like, a thought that crossed my mind, like, had I not joined the Mormon Church, would we have been closer? You know, like, that did put a wedge between us. Like, he wasn't even allowed to come to my wedding, you know, that whole thing. Yeah, like what. I mean, we. We could go back. The whole what if game is very. It's not super productive, but there it. It's. It's hard not to go down the. The what if lines of thinking sometimes where it's like, what if Mormonism hadn't separated us in this life? Would we have had a closer relationship? Would this have happened? But things have been different. I don't know. Something to think about, though. And then. Yeah, but it really did the. The. When he died, I felt like he took my mom with him. It's like both of them were for. Finally put to rest. My sister got married after his death, and I think she was, like, relieved to just get married without him there. They also had a very. Not a great relationship, if you could even say they had a relationship at all. And then there's this other thing where, like, you know, I felt when my dad was alive that I always needed to prove to him that, like, Mormonism was the right choice for me. And there was this freeing element once he died where it's like, there's no one left to prove to that this was the right choice for me. I could. I could walk away and feel fine, you know, I was always like, I'm gonna be a Mormon wife, and it's. I'm going to be so happy. Mormonism is the key. The Mormonism is the key to happiness. And I was always, like, trying to, like, not show my cards that I was too unhappy. I mean, every time he called me, I would be, like, super depressed because I had too many kids and I was full, like, drowning. And like, just like, oh, I don't. I'm so sleep deprived and I can't. I just. Just can't. It's too hard, you know? But anyway, once he was dead, it's like, oh, I don't have to prove, like, one. One more. Like, one more reason that I don't have to stay.

John Dehlin [02:18:32] I mean, what I'm hearing is you might have had to eat some crow if you had left church while he was alive.

Liz Lambson [02:18:38] Yeah. He would have been like, I was right. Like, that T shirt. Like, you control your kids, I'll control my guns. Like, let's just argue about it.

John Dehlin [02:18:47] Mm.

Liz Lambson [02:18:48] Let's just be at odds.

John Dehlin [02:18:50] Most of the time, someone is afraid to leave the church because of the believing parent. So this is the first time maybe I could think of where someone was afraid to leave the church because of the non believer.

Liz Lambson [02:19:00] Yeah, I was trying to, like, prove it to them that it's like, I made the right choice. I was right, you were wrong. But no, I think, you know, the two things, again, that he warned me about were racist racism, racist ideologies, racist his teachings. Just look at the Book of Mormon. It's so. It's just there and then the quality of life for women in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [02:19:24] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:19:25] Because he saw. He saw that I was so intelligent and smart and talented and capable, and he was so excited for me to go to college and to, like, just, like, be a high achiever. I was always a high achiever. I think I still am, given my circumstances. I'm trying my best and very driven. And he didn't want to see that, see me held back in any way. It's kind of like when that AP History teacher was like, are you gonna go to college? And I was like, I just, you know, fallen in love with Stan. I was like, no, I want to be a mom. And she was like, liz, you're so gifted. Don't like, throw away the idea. Don't completely put aside the idea that you could do something with your intellect anyway.

John Dehlin [02:20:25] Yeah. Okay. Should we circle back to the LGBT stuff? I. I did pause you when you were gonna be talking a bit more about that because there was still the November 15th policy and the. And the reversal and if any of that. And I don't remember how much of that we addressed in a previous episode.

Prop 8 Canvassing and LGBT Reckoning

Liz Lambson [02:20:43] Not really. I mean, when we lived in Orange county the summer we got married, it was 2008, and that's when we were kind of instructed and required to canvass in support of around the whole Prop 8 thing. And that was uncomfortable. In 2015 when that happened, I was in a much different mental state. I don't. I had two young kids and wasn't like super aware beyond the survival mode I was in at home. So I'm gonna play that card as an excuse that I wasn't super. You're surviving like into it and. Or where. But if we, you know, Fast forward to November 2022, just a couple months ago. That's when that federal bill supporting same sex marriage passed and the church put out a statement in support of it. And that made the New York Times. I'm an avid New York Times reader. Apparently I read the New York Times too much because it's pulled me away. Sent. I'm too far left. But I love the New York Times. And so they did an article kind of featuring like, oh, wow, look, the Mormons supported this bill. But of course there are a lot of underlying reasons why. Because it also like protects. Doesn't it protect the church's non profit status. They can still keep their rules of not. Not allowing gay marriage within the church. They can.

John Dehlin [02:22:46] They can expel gay BYU students, they can fire employees for being gay. And they were. What they're really doing is protecting their right to discriminate.

Liz Lambson [02:22:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:58] By creating the. While creating the appearance of supporting LGBT people. When in reality all that it did was basically say, we're not going to invalidate existing same sex marriages. And it's like, whoa, is that really a magnanimous thing for a church to say? We're not going to fight to invalidate existing same sex marriages.

Liz Lambson [02:23:18] Yeah. It's not as. It's not as. It was. It was totally just a political move.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] Pr. Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:23:25] Yeah. And. Yep. And I. That just disgusts me again, the. The. That, like, connection between religion and politics that they say is not a thing, but it totally is. It's very frustrating. And it's, like, just. It's disgusting to me. So I had a friend from Colorado Springs, High School friend, who sent me that article from New York Times. She's like, did you see this? And it was one of those messages that was like, liz, I've just always admired you for being such an advocate for the LGBT community, despite the fact that you're Mormon. I just thought about your family when I saw this article, and I was so disturbed by.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:19] I just.

Liz Lambson [02:24:20] I was just sitting on that, stewing over that. The. The despite. All the despites. We talked about that. And so there was a night, I think it was November 19th, a Fry Friday or Saturday night. I was.

John Dehlin [02:24:42] This is a couple months ago.

Liz Lambson [02:24:43] Yeah, I couldn't sleep, and I was on the couch downstairs. I stayed on the couch all night. And I. I didn't mention. It was a year and a half, summer 2021, when my husband approached me in the laundry room and said. Just so randomly, I was folding laundry. And he was like, liz, what if we didn't raise our kids in the church? I'm learning a lot of things. He had just read, like, the CES letter, and he was. He was going down. His shelf was breaking. We didn't explain that metaphor, but there's, you know, there was a Mormon teaching where it's like, put your. Put your doubts and your worries on the shelf. Don't think about it too much. If you have some kind of doubt or something that's really bothering you, just. Just set it on the shelf. And so his shelf was breaking. He was realizing. Coming to some big realizations. And our. Our oldest son was approaching the age of receiving the priesthood. He would be eligible to receive the priesthood in January. So a few months before that, my husband's like, this might be the time when we should consider not moving forward. Because a lot of the damage starts happening when they're youth. And, you know, you mentioned this, like, okay, we could have our kids go to church and grow up in the church, and then when we come home from church, try to deprogram and explain away the thing. Explain and try to, like, clean up the. The. The toxic spills that happened before they become Mutant Teenage Ninja Turtles. Turtles from the toxic spillage. Or we could just like, not expose them at all and, like, pull out before it's. It starts getting intense. And the law of chastity teachings and then teachings about Gay marriage and such. Those were concerning and, you know, because I, I suspected. I don't know, I can't, I can't say how my kids are going to turn out or what choices they'll make in the future, but I always want to make room for anything and everything in. And like, so, you know, as I was saying, like, could my kid marry the partner of their choice in this church? If not, let me reconsider. Is this a community that's going to be safe for my children? Is this going to be a good place for them?

John Dehlin [02:27:47] They're kids of color.

Liz Lambson [02:27:48] They are kids of color as well. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [02:27:57] So there's the misogyny, the racism, the LGBT stuff. There's a lot. And the chastity, morality stuff.

Liz Lambson [02:28:05] Purity, culture. And it's like, okay, even if my oldest son is presenting so far as pretty straight, if one of his younger brothers comes out down the road and he's all in, is he going, Is that going to create a wedge between him and his younger siblings? Will that create division? Will that create disdain or sort of like this self righteousness? You know, we also want to create unity within our family.

John Dehlin [02:28:41] So there's also the dynamic of if you or your, or Sam leave, but your kids stay faithful.

Liz Lambson [02:28:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] Then are they looking down on their parents or even alienated from their parents? Or if they marry an orthodox woman, is she doubtful and suspicious of either of you? If you're not fully in.

Liz Lambson [02:29:01] I mean, they're, they're total. That's still a possibility. All these things are possibilities.

John Dehlin [02:29:05] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:29:07] You know, they could, one of them could become like me in high school and find Mormon friends and fall in love with a Mormon girl and follow her to BYU and all the things like it's, it could happen, still could. Like, there's only so much that's within our control. Right. As parents and as people in general, there's only so much. But it's like, with, with the opportunities and choices that you can make, what are you gonna do? So my husband had presented this idea to me that we not raise the kids, that we not continue beyond primary. And that's when I started like, you

John Dehlin [02:29:48] know,

Liz Lambson [02:29:50] the prickling, the animal instinct digging my heels in. Like, no, you're not taking away this thing that I love and that I've sacrificed for. And so there was, there was kind of a point where it's like, okay, our war dissolved. Would we attend the new ward or would that be the time to stop going? Like that was, that was a moment and I was like, I really Love Mormon people, and I want new friends. Like, I'm very social. We were coming. The pandemic influenced people a ton. It affected the membership of the church a lot. When people weren't attending, you know, it was a time to reassess. We did the same thing. Our ward dissolved during pandemic season. The numbers dropped so much that the ward could no longer survive. And then, so, like, pandemic, I'm like. But, like, I want to make new friends and I want the kids to go to this ward where there will be a bigger primary so they can have, like, more friends. Like, we've been so isolated. The community aspect was so important to me and that I. Yeah, I just wanted. And. And I still, like, really enjoyed the. The quiet place, the opportunity to meditate. I. I have to admit, like, it is a place where I could find a connection with God. I wasn't going just for my kids. I was also going for me. Like, you know, I. I could go. I thought, like, you know, what if I just go by myself? That was an option that I threw around. Like, I can go and I can sift through the bullshit and the stuff that's, like, valuable. I'm old enough that I can do that, but my kids can't. So what if I just go by myself? What if I become one of those single ladies in the early society who goes till my dying day and just, like, holds on to the good things that I love about it?

John Dehlin [02:31:56] And there is this tradition, very small, of progressive liberal Mormons that are, you know, feminist, pro, lgbt, you know, sex positive, who know all the history, who don't even necessarily view the scriptures as literal, don't see it as the one true church.

Liz Lambson [02:32:19] But that describes me pretty well.

John Dehlin [02:32:21] Yeah, it's symbolical, it's metaphorical, it's spiritual, it's community. Doesn't matter if it's true. And everything's harmful. So it's just one of many harmful organizations. But it's my tribe.

Liz Lambson [02:32:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:33] So there's a tradition there.

Liz Lambson [02:32:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's me. I was like, you know, these are. There's so much good. There's. The community is lovely. I loved the new bishops in the new ward. Really gem of a guy. And we'll come back to him. Or maybe I should say it now, because what if we don't? Let's just say when I resigned. I do want to spend some time talking about the resignation day itself, but that man and his wife were so excited for me. They were so happy for me. Like, I wrote this letter that you read that explains my thought processes and all the things that led me to making this decision. And you, you can't read it without like recognizing that a lot of these points are very valid. Right. And, and it, and it kind of just wraps up in a nice, not super succinct, but, you know, a 7,500 word, 16 page letter. You know, what led me to resigning. And they read the letter, thought it was beautiful, and we just made a day of it. I went to their house, you know, presented them with a hard copy. Resignation day was a beautiful day and they were so happy for me to be Liz, fully Liz, to like be the most authentic version of myself. His wife was even like, we were talking about this, like, well, you know, I thought maybe I could go just by myself or like, you know, take the kids through their primary years and then like when young youth program maybe pull them out. And she's like, my bishop's wife said this. She's like, oh no, pri. Not even primary safe. They'll sing things like follow the prophet. And you don't want your kids to like, get that in their heads that, that the prophet is the only one who speaks truth. She like, the bishop's wife is telling me not to take my kids to primary to sing the song.

Resignation from the Church

John Dehlin [02:34:42] This Feels like Bizarre Land. Celebrating your resignation as a Mormon from the Mormon Church with your bishop and his wife. That sounds like Bizarre land.

Liz Lambson [02:34:52] I know. And we're like, let's, let's remain friends. Let's go out to dinner in January after the holidays. Like, that's, you know, and they're like, how can we support you? What do you want from us? Do you want us to not talk to you? Like, you know, we kind of established, like, you know, don't call us, we'll call you kind of thing.

John Dehlin [02:35:09] On the one hand, it sounds like the ideal response. On the other hand, I can't imagine any apostle being okay with that being the response.

Liz Lambson [02:35:20] Right? No, it's a little weird, right?

John Dehlin [02:35:22] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:35:22] Like the bishop, like, I think they're

John Dehlin [02:35:24] gonna get in trouble. This story gets told.

Liz Lambson [02:35:27] I mean, this bishop is so open minded and progressive. Like, I did allow, we did allow our oldest son to get the priesthood. And because I was like, I think it should be his choice. Like, he's been really involved and so I talked to him about it. Like, do you want to do the priesthood thing? I was really nervous about it because it was like a major introduction to him and the patriarchy. Like, let us introduce you formally and let you Be accepted into the patriarchy order.

John Dehlin [02:35:53] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:35:54] And that's really made me nervous again. As the only biological female in our home, all the men growing up thinking that they have more power status than me, who cleans up after them all the time, that's pretty much my main role. I feel at home these days,

Margi Dehlin [02:36:17] so.

Liz Lambson [02:36:17] But we. We let him do it. And there was this big hesitation because my husband was like, I will not let any other man ordain my son of the priesthood. I will do it. Even though he was not faithful or believing. He's like, I'm not letting anybody talk bad about me. Like, this is my son. So he did it even though he, like, doesn't believe it, but he. He ordained our son. And. And then there. I. No, I'm not going to say that.

John Dehlin [02:36:52] You're about to say something that might get someone in trouble.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:36:55] Okay.

Liz Lambson [02:36:57] But then it came, like, okay, is he gonna go to the temple? Is he gonna go do baptism? When is Lewis gonna go to the temple? There were people waiting for that moment. When's Lewis gonna go to the temple? Who's gonna take him? And I still had an active temple recommend, even though I was drinking coffee and I wasn't wearing my garments much. We should talk about when I stopped wearing my garments.

John Dehlin [02:37:24] And I guess I want to ask whether that was with the bishop and stake president's consent or whether you had to be vague, but you don't have to answer that, because I don't want to get.

Liz Lambson [02:37:33] I will just say that, like, my bishop's super cool, right? Or my former bishop, because we're not. He's not my bishop anymore, but my former bishop, he was super cool. And, like, I was like, okay, I'm gonna bring Louis. Lewis is interested in going to the temple on the first. On the temple trip with the youth. The youth baptism trip. And I wanted him to go because it's one of the most fascinating things about Mormon culture, this whole idea of, like, proxy work for the dead. Like I was saying, like, this kind of weird stuff is, like, really, like, fascinating to me. And I wanted him to, like, be in on it a little bit. It's like, if you have the opportunity to go and. Because I was like, you gotta see the inside of these temples. We drive by them all the time. I want you to see the inside. And. And they're like these oxen around the baptism pool. It's really cool. And, like, I just want you to, like, go and, like, see what it's. See what it's about kind of How I felt when I got my endowment. Like, let's go see what this is all about, you know? Like, I wanna. I wanna. I want in on this, like, weirdness. Let's see it. I want to see it, you know? So I wanted that for him too. Like, hey, like, there's. Yeah, there's all this talk about the temple. I want you to go and, like, check it out. See, like, because it is a cool concept to do a service for someone who's dead. It's like kind of seancey and like, it's a little bit like Wiccan. Like, I like it. It's like. It's like the voodoo doll. Let's dip him in the water. He's baptized now.

John Dehlin [02:39:02] It's religiously freaky.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:04] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [02:39:04] Love it. It's cool. It's different. So I wanted him to experience that. So. But he needed to have a. An interview with the bishop. And my bishop or former bishop was super cool. Like, I don't do interviews with the youth unless there's a parent present. I'm not. Because we were very clear, like, we will not. None of our children will be asked about their sexual behavior anything like this, even if we're present. Please don't bring this up. Like, this is not. We're not going there with our kids. So I made it very clear to him that, like, we don't use the word worthy in our house. We don't use that term. We don't talk about worthiness in our home. That's a toxic word to me. So although this is a worthiness interview, if you can please refrain from using that word when you interview my son, that would be great. And he was very respectful.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] He was down.

Liz Lambson [02:40:02] Yeah. And had this very, like, loosey, goosey, vague temple recommend interview, Asking questions like, do you pray? My son's like, sometimes. Do you read scriptures? I have a set. Like, he has a set. We don't really read them. So, like, well, do you want to go to the temple? Sure. So that was it. Like, do you have a desire to go? Yeah, I think so. And so. Okay, well, have a great time. We'll pick you up on Tuesday and we'll take you. So I didn't go with him. He just went on a youth trip and he thought it was really cool. And he had the experience that I was hoping that he would have, which is just like, go have a little inside look at what this is about.

John Dehlin [02:40:52] It's like a cultural field trip.

Liz Lambson [02:40:54] Yeah, Yeah. I really saw it that way. Like, just. Just go. It's Like a. Yeah. If you have an opportunity to go in, like, go for it. Like, tell me what you think. It's a cool concept. I still think it is.

John Dehlin [02:41:05] Do you want to talk about your temple recommend interviews with your bishop in terms of coffee and other things?

Liz Lambson [02:41:12] Again, they're so progressive. They were like, coffee's wine, like, no big deal. What's with these people, like, binge drinking, Diet Coke. Coffee's so much more natural. They were just so cool. I mean, and I. My temple recommends a little older, so, like, I had gotten it. And, yeah, like, I mean, I was just starting to interpret things in a very, like, relaxed way. Like, okay, I'll put on my garments to go visit the temple. I just want to. But I'll take them off when I get home. Like, I mean, I do want to mention, like, that when I decided not to wear my garments because it was a momentous and special occasion. I have not told very many people this story because it's. It could be incriminating. But for those who have stuck with me this far and listening to these podcast interviews to this point, I think you've earned this story. Thank you for bearing with me up until this point in, like, two hours into episode four with Liz Lambson. You are getting a treat right now in the form of this story. And it involves, okay, the weekend that Roe v. Wade went down. And I was really upset about just the idea of white men making decisions about women's bodies. Right. And reflecting on garments. I said earlier that to me, you know, what you wear affects how you feel. And the feeling that I got from wearing garments was a feeling of submission, being submissive. And so the weekend Roe v. Wade went down, I had already been kind of off and on with my garments, but I was like, I. I think I'm done with these. I don't like that. They just embodied to me the idea of women's bodies being controlled by others and often men like the fact that you can only. The only person who can see you without your garments is your husband when he wants to. To sleep with you. Like, it's just a weird, unhealthy thing, you know? And so the weekend that Rovi went down, I was really upset about garments. I got an email from my talent agency, my acting agency. I had forgotten that I'd submitted my headshots and resume for a movie. And I got an email saying, casting has requested that you submit an audition for the role of Streaker. And I was all about it. I was like, my body, my choice. If I want to run around naked. I am going to. I will do it. So I followed the audition instructions they had. They said, wear a bathing suit for your audition. Very specific. Like, do these actions do this sort of, like, chanting, cheerleader kind of thing? Submit the audition. And my husband is like. Like, watch. I was filming in the backyard, so I like running around in the backyard in my swimsuit, like, filming myself, like, doing these, like, chanting things, per instructions. And my husband's like, my wife has lost it. She's gone off the deep end. It's been lovely knowing her. Something's happening here that I can't explain. So I submitted the audition. I forgot about it, because that's what you do. I audition for so many things, and it's best to just, like, just forget about it and just assume you're not going to get it, because you have to handle a lot of rejection in the acting world. And I'm new to it, so I especially expect a lot of rejection. Anyway, I got a call a few weeks later saying, like, you've been. What's the word? You've been? Like, earmarked or tagged for the streaker role. But before we go forward and book it, it's the agent on the phone. Like, I just want to make sure you're comfortable with this, you know, because I think a lot of people didn't. I know a lot of people didn't audition for it because they're not comfortable with it. Especially, I think, especially in Utah, it's hard to come by actors of color, so that works in my favor occasionally. And then actors who are willing to do things like run around naked on camera, that's also me, apparently. So she called and was like, are you sure you're comfortable with this? And I was like, hell, yes. Like, my body, my choice. Like, it's like, what? And I was saying, like, you know, what could be more joyous? What? In what? Like, I was. I was beginning to embrace my body as more than a sexual object, more than just a walking womb for bearing children and creating children. I was finally beginning, as I was letting go of my garments, to understand that my body is like this beautiful, marvelous thing that's mine, and. And. And I can live in it and experience joy in it and make my own choices as far as what I will do with my body, how I'm going to use it, and, like, running around without my clothes on. That sounds fun. That just sounds like, what could be more free? What could be better? Like, how many times do people want to do that? But they're gonna get pulled over by the cops and for indecent exposure.

John Dehlin [02:48:08] You know, like, license to streak.

Liz Lambson [02:48:11] Yes. Like, what an opportunity. That's how I felt about it anyway. And so I was like, no, I want to do this. You don't know what it means for me as a woman who is finally embracing my body fully. Like, this is. This would be an important thing for me to do. It would be very meaningful for me to have this opportunity. So, long story short, I booked the role. Me and another guy, a gay guy who, like, we had a great conversation about gender identity at the time. This is another story. You'll have to read the book, the future book. But me and another guy were cast from my agency. There's nothing that can bond you with someone than an experience like this. He will always be a close friend to me because we went through this experience together. But I'm not sure if I should say the title of the movie. It's still in production. But I will do some name dropping and just say that I got to be on set and meet and streak for Willem Dafoe in a film directed by Patricia Arquette, who watched my audition video and was so excited that I was there, and I was so excited. And Elizabeth Lail from Netflix, you and, oh, my gosh, why am I spacing on his name? Nicholson. Jack Nicholson's son was in it. I got to hang out with and meet, like, some really cool people. It was one of the most unusual and special bizarre days of my entire life. And now.

John Dehlin [02:50:03] Did you do this before you resigned or after?

Liz Lambson [02:50:05] Before.

John Dehlin [02:50:06] So you probably will be the first and the last Mormon woman ever to appear in a Hollywood movie as a streaker, I think.

Liz Lambson [02:50:15] Probably. Probably. I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:50:19] And you wouldn't have been able to do it with. With a traditional orthodox faith, I think.

Liz Lambson [02:50:24] Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, because, I mean, there are a number of. Not just Mormon women, but, like, I. I did a commercial with this amazingly buff, literally, a romance cover model dude with, like, long blonde hair, but he's super, super orthodox Christian. And he was describing to me how he has boundaries, how he doesn't do nude. He'll strip down, but, like, cover himself very strategically. And he just wants to save his body for his future wife. That's something. For his future wife. He believes in celibacy before marriage. And I was really admirable, like. But yeah, they're people in who go into acting and they set their boundaries and they stick to that. And I'm so new to it. I'm like, whatever. I was just really open to. But that's my personality though, too. It's not that I was doing it for the money. That wasn't my drive. It just sounded like a really fun opportunity. And it was

Margi Dehlin [02:51:35] so.

Liz Lambson [02:51:35] I will always remember that the weekend I officially stopped wearing my garments for good was when Roe v. Wade went down and when I got offered the opportunity to streak for Willem Dafoe.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] Great story. Thank you for sharing.

Liz Lambson [02:51:55] Should we go back to the letter writing business? Yeah. Oh, the wheat. The night I couldn't sleep. It's the night I couldn't sleep. And that's right, because I had to rewind and tell and explain that my husband's the one who proposed initially, not just marriage, but proposed to leave the church. Which surprises a lot of people when they hear that because again, like, I'm more outwardly out there than he is. Like, and you can do things like look at my Instagram and see me not wearing garments, whereas if he's not wearing his garments, it's not so visible. He stopped wearing his garments long before I did. But, like, the moment I post a picture of me in shorts, like, what is, what is happening to the Lampson family? You know, it's Liz, Liz is bringing them all down. It's Liz, the black girl pioneer.

John Dehlin [02:52:55] Heritage Mormons are going to blame the convert, you know, son or daughter in law if their precious child ends up leaving.

Liz Lambson [02:53:07] Yeah. I mean, and that was, I said I wouldn't talk about them.

John Dehlin [02:53:13] That was me. That wasn't you.

Liz Lambson [02:53:17] Yeah. There's so much that I could say that I'm not going to say, but

John Dehlin [02:53:24] it's systems, not people. Because everyone's operating in a system. You know what I mean?

Liz Lambson [02:53:28] Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, it's like, you know, they're like, well,

John Dehlin [02:53:35] that was me speculating. That wasn't you dishing.

Liz Lambson [02:53:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but let's say it's like, well, who's going to take the oldest son to the temple? Because my husband declares, I'm not, I don't go to the temple anymore. So, like, who's going to take the son to the temple for his first temple experience? We must find someone looking around Liz and beyond Liz, because clearly Liz must have abandoned ship long ago.

John Dehlin [02:54:14] And you still had a double recommend.

Liz Lambson [02:54:16] I still had a double recommend. So I have to like, butt in and be like, I could, I, I could take him. I, I, I can do it. I'm still, I'm still hanging in there. You know, I'm still, I'm still attending. And I, I mean, I kept paying the little bit of tithing that I could on my smaller income for quite a while, whereas my husband stopped paying tithing years ago. Just seeing the corruption or, you know, it's, it's. It's not cool. It's. It's not cool to expect to only, like, allow people to attend the temple if they're paying. It does give it that country club vibe. Anyway, I couldn't sleep this one night, and I started having these, like, visions and this and, and what was keeping me hanging on. Again, I've said this already, but just the idea that, like. But I can't leave the church because I believe in God. I'm a spiritual person. I can't how. Like, leaving the church would be leaving God, right? And that's where my husband and I kept butting heads because I was like, atheism, I'm trying it, I'm trying it on for size, and it's not working for me. I am just a kind of a spiritual, empathic person. And I feel like there's energy that's outside of me that brings me light and peace. And I recognize that I'm maybe the Mormon heavenly father is not who that is, but. But I still like when I meditate and when I pray, I feel a connection to something beyond myself and I don't want to. And I, and I, I want that in my life. And so far, the Mormon Church is where I've gone as my place of worship, as my, as my meditation house, as my place where I can connect and feel good feelings. And my husband's like, well, can you find that in other places, like out in nature? And I'm like, well, I don't know. Like, something that I have appreciated about the Mormon Church is the rituals, things like the sacrament and the, the meetings and even the temple stuff. Like, I think that's the. There's value to these rituals and like, actually doing things in a form of worship. But I had this revelation that night that I couldn't sleep while something crazy was happening in my hometown near my house. But I had these feelings wash over

John Dehlin [02:56:59] me where, oh, the shooting at the gay bar happened in your hometown?

Liz Lambson [02:57:04] Oh, you let it out.

John Dehlin [02:57:07] You didn't want to mention that?

Liz Lambson [02:57:08] No, no, that's, that's the.

John Dehlin [02:57:09] I gave it away.

Liz Lambson [02:57:10] Yeah, you gave it away. I'm sorry, but no, no, it's okay. So the night. There's something very bad happening in my hometown as I can't Sleep. As I'm receiving these revelations where it was like, oh, wait, you were having

John Dehlin [02:57:24] this revelation before you heard the news, right?

Liz Lambson [02:57:26] It was happening.

John Dehlin [02:57:28] Wow.

Liz Lambson [02:57:28] Yeah. Like, it was happening while I couldn't sleep. And I was, like, thinking about. I was stewing over the girl from my high school, from my hometown, who had sent me this email saying, like, oh, Liz, it's so cool that you are such an advocate for the LGBT community. Meanwhile, something terrible is happening to the LGBT people in my hometown. Like, and I was like, how long can I remain affiliated with an organization that doesn't reflect my values? Especially on this point, stewing over, thinking about all of my gay friends, my very close gay friends. And this is something I didn't mention as well, that I have not been very open about. But again, for those of you who have stuck with me thus far, I will treat you with this secret tidbit that I don't. Haven't even shared with my closest friends, which is that the book that I wrote, the fiction novel that I wrote, was a gay romance, and it was written from the perspective of a boy who falls. It's really sweet. It's very, like, very, like, high school. It's nothing like, totally. It's not like a. It's not like an adult romance novel. It's more like a rom com, a teenage rom com. And I wrote it from the perspective of a boy. And last year, I was really grappling with the fact that, like, I super, super connect with gay guys. And I. And I began to, like, understand that there's probably more. There is more to it than meets the eye and that I understood and. And I began to, like, finally recognize. And a couple years ago, a friend of mine, we were talking about pronouns and gender identity and. And. And I had. I had never admitted this to anyone before, but I had told my best friend, like, you know, if it came down to it, like, I do feel like. Like, if there's a binary with a man on one side of the line and a dot for male and a dot for female and a line, it's like, I don't feel like I've. The term non binary. Never like it. I didn't identify with that because it seemed, in my mind, it seemed to place a dot somewhere between male and female. Whereas for me, in the way that I. Under the way that I feel inside, it's more like if you folded the line in half and put the dots on top of each other, it's not being between the two dots, it's being both the dots at the same time.

John Dehlin [03:00:23] It's not a neither, it's a. It's both.

Liz Lambson [03:00:26] Yes. It's not. It's not being somewhere between male and female. It's being both male and female. And I finally learned the term for that just a few months ago. Actually, a few days after I resigned, someone called me and was like, we've talked about this. We talked about this when writing your book. Because I was like, I wrote this book from the perspective of a boy, and it felt so good and comfortable and, like, great. And I just found that, like, the more I watch, like, because there's more of it now, the war, the more I watched, like, boy, boy, love stories, reading or watching in movies, like, it really resonated with me. Not in a way that, like. And this I talked about with my gay friend, my gay streaker friend, because I was telling him about the book, and he's like, you got to be careful about, like, fetishizing, like, gay relationships. And. And, like. Because there are a lot of women who are, like, really into it. And I was like, come at it from my perspective where, like, I am writing from the perspective of this boy, this gay boy, because that's kind of how I feel like, inside. I mean, it's not. And. And. And the way I would describe it is, like, when I'm watching, like, a show or movie, I really love, like, Heartstopper. I love Young royals, and those are stories about high school boys falling in love. But, like, you know, when you watch a movie and, like, you really, really identify with a character, and it's like, you could crawl into that character's body and you would feel at home. There's. And that's what I found when writing my book or watching these certain shows where it's like, I feel like I could crawl into the body of that boy and feel very, very at home and comfortable and good. And that feels good to me. So I've never. But so anyway, someone called me and was like, like, liz, have you ever heard the term bigender? And I was like, no, tell me more. And like, okay, so there's. So you have sexuality and you have gender, you have bisexuality, where you're sexually attracted to men and women, and with. By gender, you identify as both male and female. And I was like, that's it. That's the word I've been looking for. Like, I know that these labels and stuff, like, some people think they're not necessary, and people are really, like, running away with all these labels and things. But, like, There is something really comforting about finding a word that kind of encapsulates how you feel. That's the. That's the magic of language. I mean, things have names, people have names, feelings have names, words. Words communicate very specific meanings. And so it was really cool for me to find a word that seemed to describe how I feel. Anyway, I don't share that with a lot of people.

John Dehlin [03:03:54] Now you've shared it with a couple hundred thousand people.

Liz Lambson [03:03:56] Oh, but I don't know these people.

John Dehlin [03:04:00] Has that made you consider different pronouns? Or do you still. Are you still more comfortable with she?

Liz Lambson [03:04:06] I mean, I think that visually I present very sheish. And this is what I told my friend a couple years ago. I was like, you know, if I were to really, like, dig into this, they seems like a good fit for me. But, like, I don't feel like a plural person, though. I feel like both things. I'm still a singular. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:04:28] I don't know people, they can be a singular.

Liz Lambson [03:04:30] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like, so, like, I mean, I'm not going to run away with it, but, you know, like, I think the she, they pairs is really nice to me because, like, both those things resonate with me, but. But I'm cool with, like, she, her. I think visually that's easy for people to swallow, and it's sort of the way that I dress most of the time, but. And I'm still, like, you know, I'm still figuring myself out. This is like a revelation that I had just very recently, you know, kind of the discovery of this word. And what does that mean? And. And like. But I. It kind of helps me understand, like, how even back to high school and you look at byu, like, I really, really connected with gay guys even when I didn't know they were gay. Like, even before they'd came out. Like, I just, like, felt this, like, draw to these people. And like, some. It's almost like. Like there's something that makes us similar, but I couldn't quite put a finger on it. And like, again, these are people, like my friend who took his life where, like, we were super, super close before he even came out. And that there have been several people like that. And I just. I don't know. I mean, I have very close gay friends and I feel very connected with them for a number of reasons. But again, in terms of, like, church membership, it's like, how can I truly tell these friends that I love them and care about them and be a part of an organization that treats them this way? It's just. I can't in good faith, remain affiliated with an organization that is so. Has been. Has been so cruel. Kicking my friends out of school, pushing them to take their own lives, stripping them of hope for the future, just not allowing them in the temples. How can I stop? How can I truly be a friend to my best friends and. And be affiliated? So that's the word that I was sitting on. Affiliation. Affiliation. How long can I remain affiliated? And then that led to. What would it look like if I unaffiliated? What would it look like if I completely disconnected? What if there was no, like I used to say, like, well, I wouldn't mind if my kids went to byu. There's really good education there. But then I'm reflecting more and like, like, well, what if they didn't? And what if we stopped going to church completely? What if we just totally. What if we. What if I totally and completely unaffiliated. What would that look like? And I was just washed over by these intense feelings like this, like this vision. And I felt that God, I have never. I haven't felt so connected to the divine. I haven't felt so strongly that God was. Was communicating me to me directly as I was in that moment. And it's that. It's like this being power was telling me, if you leave, I will be even more with you. We will be even closer. You will be stripping away the things that are pushing us apart. And I will offer you even more protection than what you are finding in the church structure. If you're worried about losing the structure, the community, the safety of it, I will provide you with more safety, more protection, and more connection if you go. It's like I was being told, this is. It is time to let go, Liz. Your life, I promise, will be better if you go. And I am giving you permission, not only giving you permission, I am encouraging you to take this step. And this was coming from God. And, And I, I. This leads to what my song is about. I wrote, I had in. In the days following I was visiting, I. I visited several churches, going to different choral programs, different concerts in different church buildings. And. And it was amazing. Like, after letting go of Mormonism and taking the filter away, the amount of goodness and light that I was seeing around me that I wasn't, like, trying to. I didn't. I no longer had to, like, filter or explain through a Mormon lens. The amount of light I was seeing and absorbing from people and places was incredible. It's like. It's like that lens was very Very foggy. And by taking it away, suddenly I could see so much more clearly and so much more light was coming in. Like the, you know, if Mormonism was a hole in the lid of a shoebox, you take the shoebox lid off and like a flood of light all of a sudden, really amazing feeling. And I went to a couple choral concerts and I realized, like, you know, what if I were to choose a new religion? As I'm looking at these churches, what has made me feel most connected to the divine in my life is music. I have felt more like, like out of body experiences, like, like taken away into another world through music. And I thought my new. If I had a religion, if I did, it would just be music. So I was at these choral concerts, one at the Cathedral of the Madeleine, one at the First Baptist Church in Salt Lake. These historic buildings, beautiful. I was listening to this music and I was just like. I was just like, oh, I was being like, over. Just overcome with these good feelings of light. And I had a vision during one of these concerts where I was the baby Moses looking up at my birth mother. And she was about to put me in the basket and put me in the river and send me away. And I'm like, and. And she represented the church, the Mormon Church that had fed me, kept me safe, was taking care of me. And I'm like, but I love you so much. Why do we have to part? Why do we have to separate like this? But she knew and received a revelation from God. I think my bishop did too. Like this feeling, like it's time to part. And I. So God has. Has told Moses, mother, and Moses knows too, that we have to separate. And. And his mother is like, you have no idea the future that is ahead of you, the incredible things that are going to happen. If you stayed with me, you wouldn't experience those things. And I love you so much, but you're gonna have a better, more meaningful life if we part. And I just had what it felt like to leave the church was like being in the basket, looking up at the infinite sky, the dark night sky that goes on forever. And there's a line that says that in my song, like. Like the. Yeah, the sky goes on forever and. And like you're feeling like the movement of the waves. You feel yourself in motion. You're moving away from your mother. You're moving away from the church.

John Dehlin [03:12:43] Church.

Liz Lambson [03:12:43] It's really frightening because you don't know what the future is going to look like. But then there's that, that knowledge, though, that God has promised a bright future, that there is a future for you beyond the church or the life you knew before. Not just any old future, a great future, an epic future. Your story will go on. It will be epic. You have no idea. It's a leap of faith to step into the darkness. It's a leap of faith to let go of your mother and be washed away down the river in the basket. You can't see it, but there is greatness ahead. And that's what I felt. That's what I felt like. So I wrote a song about it and it's called Never Too soon and you can stream it. I don't know if you should include it.

John Dehlin [03:13:46] Maybe we should splice it in right now and let people listen to it.

Original Song and Reflections on Leaving

Liz Lambson [03:13:48] Listen to the song. I'm playing it in the studio. Singing into guitar playing Disclaimer is not my greatest strength, but it's a sincere song and it's the first song that I've written as myself. I've written music as the maternal. Sorry. As myself since getting married, since before I decided I'm not going to be a full time artist. I'm going to be a Mormon mom. I have written music as Lizzie Luna, a matriarchal figure. It worked within the context of being a Mormon mom to write music for children. So this is the first time I've just stripped all that away. And since I married and became a mom and wrote a song, that's just me. From me to you. I hope you like it.

John Dehlin [03:14:32] The song again is called.

Liz Lambson [03:14:33] It's called Never Too soon by Liz Lampson. It's on all streaming platforms, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon. And the COVID art is kind of cool. It's from 1504, an illumination from a biblical manuscript. And it's of Moses being spoken to in conversation with a spiritual figure in the burning bush. So the lyrics kind of harken back to this idea. But I, I was really touched by Moses story and also by the story of Abraham. I love, I loved and I love the Mormon Church. I really do. And I felt like I was being asked to sacrifice something that I loved very deeply. The idea of Abraham putting his son on the altar, being told by God that that's what he should do. And that's what I felt like. I felt like God was saying, like, liz, it's time for you to go. And I'm like clawing, hanging on. You don't know how much I've loved this, how much I love it actively. I do, in this moment, feel so much Love for the Mormon Church. It's something that I cherish. It's magnificent in so many ways. And I was being asked to sacrifice it and for the. For the benefit of my family. The Abraham and Isaac story doesn't work super well because Abraham doesn't end up having to kill his son. But I. But I did leave the church.

John Dehlin [03:16:13] So should we play it?

Liz Lambson [03:16:15] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:15] So let's get to it now. We are now going to play Never Too Soon. Never Too soon by Liz Lambson. Here it is. And then we'll come back to close.

Liz Lambson [03:16:27] Hi, I'm Liz Lambson, and this is a song that I wrote called Never Too Soon. And one of my favorite movies growing up because my dad forced it to be one of my favorite movies was the Ten Commandments. And so this is a song that is written or sung from the perspective of the baby Moses when he is separating from his mother and she's sending him down the river and saying that he'll be better off. He has a bright future ahead of him and it's hard for them to part and leave each other, but it's what needs to happen. This is never too soon. You're dressing me up to go. Wrapping me up your tuskets let it run my to self Set me down in a basket lower me down in the river cradle and deep in the flow. Don't say it's my time to be taken into the mystery forsaken forsaken. I look up and see the stars the sky goes on forever don't know how long, how far until I meet another mother somewhere down the river Ready to raise me a prince Ready to call me a leader not knowing ever since I need her but I need you too. Can't I wait? Can't you? I'll look back for you Can't I wait? Can't you? I'll look back and I'll miss you I will miss you. You say that it's never too soon to be you see the new moon Just let them carry you the rushing waves of water downstream Dream life will be better after the blood in the hail. Darkness hot as the fire Water walls, golden calves Desire, desire. Chariots chasing your eyes up as you climb to to the mountain. Ashes and smoke in your eyes from the bush. Voices like a fountain a fountain. Words of light heavy as stone. Words of light heavy as Words of light heavy a stone. Words of light heavy eyes. I can't wait you'll see don't look back for me I can't wait. You'll be Better off. But I'll miss you I will miss you I'll miss, miss you I'll miss you.

John Dehlin [03:20:48] That was beautiful. And it only took a few takes, right?

Liz Lambson [03:20:52] Oh, my gosh. That was the first thing I did when I came in the studio, and I was so nervous. I was more nervous to perform that than to talk to you. So that's why I was like, let's do this first. Let's get this out of the way. Because I haven't played guitar and sung for, like, an adult audience. I've done it for kids through Lizzy Luna, Yoga, Storytime, plenty. But kids are an easy audience. They're not super particular about the quality of your performance. They just care about, like, how they're feeling and if they're having fun, which is great. So performing, like, as an adult for adults is, like, pretty scary. I'm, you know, much more confident on the bass. I do play bass on the track, if you listen to the track. And clarinet. I also play with clarinet. It's on the track. So, yeah, I definitely encourage you to listen to the recorded version because it's very clean, it sounds good. But it was really hard to. To play that in one take, as you know, because I had to do it quite a few times because unlike when you're in the studio, like, we only had one camera and like, this microphone setup. And there's no way. There's no way to, like, edit or splice together multiple takes. So it was really hard for me. But thank you.

John Dehlin [03:22:15] So we'll include the link to that in the show notes.

Liz Lambson [03:22:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:22:18] Yeah. For the studio version.

Liz Lambson [03:22:20] Yes. Please listen to the. The. The studio record of it. It's. It's really beautiful with all the guitar parts and bass and clarinet and vocals. And my producer was really, really cool. And like, part of my gender identity, like something that I used to be ashamed of, is that my voice is very low. It's kind of masculine. Like, my. When I went through puberty, my voice dropped, like, dramatically. So I would answer the phone and people would think I was my brother. And so I was really self conscious about having. Having a low voice. Like, I can sing really low. Like, John, what's. Where's your voice hit? Okay, I can't go that low. But, like, your speaking voice, like, anyway, it's. I used to be really self conscious about my voice and I would always sing really high. My falsetto. But my producer was like, like, dude, you can sing really low. Let's, like, let's. Let's use that. Let's Lean into it. And so we did. So you'll hear on the track that I sing really low. I sing like an octave lower than I would have in several places when I'm harmonizing with myself. And so that was also really, like, a magical experience for me as I embrace, like, like my masculine traits and just lean into it and realize, like, that it's unique and it's special. And a lot of women can't sing as low as I can. So listen to it if just to hear how low I can sing, because it's kind of cool. And it's the first time I've really, like, just like, leaned into that in that way, so.

John Dehlin [03:24:03] Well, how should we.

Liz Lambson [03:24:05] I mean, what about the shooting?

John Dehlin [03:24:07] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just gonna say how. What are the last. Kind of. As we kind of start approaching kind of.

Liz Lambson [03:24:16] Yeah, yeah. We gotta read the book, guys. Read the book next year that you

John Dehlin [03:24:20] want to make sure. Make the story.

Liz Lambson [03:24:22] Yeah, I mean, the. One of the. The clincher. So the night that I had this revelation that, like, it's time to let go. And I have God instructing me to do that. Like, that it's time that God is promising me, like, a greater future if I. If I let go. It was a very real, warm, comforting revelation. But it's scary. And exactly that night, as I'm having these feelings in my hometown at a. At a gay club called Club Q, A Mormon inactive, I guess, but someone with Mormon background went in and killed a bunch of people at Club Q that night. I didn't even know the news. And I had contacted one of my best friends who's gay, and I said, we have to have lunch. I need to tell you that the revelation that I received. And it's time. It's time for me to leave the church and I want to talk about it with you. And so we had lunch and he knew about the shooting and didn't say anything. And I'm explaining, like, about the. This. The same sex marriage bill and like, just how I'm feeling and like, how I can no longer affiliate with this organization. And he's like, you know, embracing me. This is hard. This is. But you're doing the right thing. I was like, I know I'm doing the right thing. And. And then I got home and it was that night that I read the news and Club Q, I already knew about Club Q because one of my really good friends from high school, who's gay, and I didn't know it in high school, but I do now. But We're Scrabble partners and. But he's a poet and his name is James Davis. And a couple years ago he published a book called Club Q, a book of poetry. And so I own this book and I've read this poem Club Q. And it's the club that he would go to, the club in our neighborhood and like a place that, like, this is kind of my home in a way. So this shooting happened by someone with Mormon background in my hometown. And it literally hit too close to home. Right. Like that phrase, hit close to home. It did. Those bullets hit people close to my home at Club Q. And I totally encourage you to look up the. The Book of Poetry Club Q as well. The poem Club Q is, is really beautiful and. Actually would love to read just the first line because it. Okay. Club Q, I stand for quest, which is to say mission. As in our mission is to provide a safe space for you to be yourself. Which is to say it is not always safe for you to be yourself.

John Dehlin [03:27:42] That book was published when?

Liz Lambson [03:27:49] 20 20.

John Dehlin [03:27:51] So at least.

Liz Lambson [03:27:51] James Davis.

John Dehlin [03:27:52] A year, A couple years before the murders.

Liz Lambson [03:27:54] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:56] Wow.

Liz Lambson [03:27:57] But yeah, my friend James Davis, he's a amazing poet and his, his mastery of the English language is so good. I cannot beat him in Scrabble. We've played over 250 games and I've only beat him eight times, if that says anything about the quality of his work.

John Dehlin [03:28:18] But I mean, I already noted that like no Mormon bishop ever, plus his wife, are going to celebrate the resignation of one of their members. Other than your bishop, your former bishop and his wife, no God, no Mormon God ever is going to bless and encourage the resignation of his son or daughter from his true church. And then it's sounding like you received a full on revelation. The Mormon Church teaches about prophecy, seership, revelation. What is it? Prophecy is knowing the future. Okay. That's not quite what happened. Seeing you kind of saw something before you knew from reporting that it had actually happened. So in some sense you were a seer.

Liz Lambson [03:29:10] I had a sense. That's. Of.

John Dehlin [03:29:12] Or you received a revelation.

Liz Lambson [03:29:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:15] And again, that's. I don't know. That's. That's kind of. If, at least if I were in your shoes, I would see that as divine revelation.

Liz Lambson [03:29:25] It did feel that way. I think it was. I mean, I'm a visionary. I see visions. They're absolutely valid. Yeah. Unusual. Unusual. And then when I learned about the news, I was thinking back on my friend Alan who took his life. I was thinking about this Mormon shooter and just the consequences of these orthodox teachings about traditional marriage, how this type of. Some of these religious beliefs lead to violence and death. I don't want to be. I think about my children and how a couple things. I don't want them to grow up to become killers, and I also don't want them to grow up and be killed. So, like, if one of my kids were a patron or a visitor at Club Q, you know, would they be safe if I were to raise my kids, teaching them and exposing them to teachings about traditional marriage? Would they harm people in the future with those teachings so deeply planted in their heart? I. And then, you know, you think about how my dad also died from gun violence. I really just can't stand by. The. The number of Mormons in our community who are so into their guns. I mean, can you blame me for, like, when you have a family member who dies from a gun because of a gun?

John Dehlin [03:31:51] Like, you get.

Liz Lambson [03:31:53] Can you blame.

John Dehlin [03:31:54] You could have an opinion on this topic.

Liz Lambson [03:31:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:58] And the. And the shooter in Enoch, you know, had a gun. And. Yeah, the shooter at Club Q had a gun. We can't. We can't blame everything on gun ownership, but we also can't say that accessibility

Liz Lambson [03:32:12] of them is irrelevant. Yeah. The accessibility of guns is. Is disturbing. And. And then just like the cult, the. The culture of violence. And I do feel like. I think you, like, dived into this a bit, but, like, there's a lot of violence in Mormon history and in the. In the Book of Mormon itself. Like, the idea to, like. Like, when Nephi kills Laban, like, it's better for the man, this man to

John Dehlin [03:32:38] die than a nation dwindle and unbelief.

Liz Lambson [03:32:41] Yeah. Like, to justify murder in certain circumstances, then you see, just. I mean, doesn't someone get like. Like, go and chop off people's arms?

John Dehlin [03:32:50] In the Book of Mormon, Ammo Ammon is going to a place where he's not welcome. The Lamanites around are like, say, we don't want you here. Get out of here. And so he chops off, like, 30 of their arms and.

Liz Lambson [03:33:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:04] Puts their arms in a big pile.

Liz Lambson [03:33:06] Yeah. And you, like, teach. You tell these stories to kids. And then the kids are, like, chopping off arms, and they'll, like, reenact this as little kids, like, cutting off each other's arms. It's a scripture story. It's, like, super disturbing to me. I. I couldn't help but, like, this line was, like, flowing in my mind, like, mormons kill. Mormons murder. Mormons kill people. Mormonism kills. Mormonism killed my friend Alan. Mormonism killed the people at club. I mean, it's not that simple. It's not, it's not like, I mean, please don't quote me on that because

Closing Reflections and Farewell

John Dehlin [03:33:46] people, all religions kill and secular people kill. But it's different when that killing either the killing seems to be sometimes scripturally condoned, which it is in Mormonism.

Liz Lambson [03:34:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:02] And when a high percentage of Mormons seem to support, seem to oppose any sort of legislation that would have a chance at curbing gun violence.

Liz Lambson [03:34:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:19] You know that. Then, then you know, and we're not anti second amendment here on Mormon stories, but at least you're allowed to ask if your own dad dies by a self inflicted gunshot wound.

Liz Lambson [03:34:31] Can I have an opinion?

John Dehlin [03:34:32] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:34:33] Like, you know. Yeah. I mean when your kids finding loaded guns lying around when they're looking for their Legos, it's kind of disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [03:34:45] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:34:48] So.

John Dehlin [03:34:53] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:34:54] Where do we go with this?

John Dehlin [03:34:56] So this ties to your letter?

Liz Lambson [03:34:58] Oh, yeah. Oh, I wanted to tell you the last piece of my outfit that I didn't talk about is my necklace. And my husband gave this to me on my resignation day. Really sweet. He wrote a letter telling me how proud he was of me. He was so excited for me. Like he, he couldn't believe it. He was like, you know, after a year and a half of like me trying to shut down the idea and not wanting to talk about it and like, just let me go to church in peace. Like, do we have like, stop putting the pressure on me. I don't want the this, you know.

John Dehlin [03:35:34] Did he already resigned or do you want to talk about that?

Liz Lambson [03:35:37] He hasn't.

John Dehlin [03:35:38] Oh, so he hadn't even resigned, but somehow he was excited for your resume?

Liz Lambson [03:35:42] Oh, he was so excited because he

John Dehlin [03:35:44] thought what it would be good for you or healthy?

Liz Lambson [03:35:46] Oh, he just was like, we're on the same page again. It was like, because it was causing a lot of marital contention between us, we started going to marriage counseling because I could not figure it out. I couldn't figure out how to like, like, we can't even talk about this topic and, and spirituality is really important to me and how like, you know, there's a reason why mixed faith marriages, like, are difficult and sometimes don't work out and people divorce when their spouses want to leave the church and they don't. Like, it's, it's really difficult in a relationship, especially when, I mean, I think maybe in my experience, but when you have kids and you want to like maybe raise your kids differently than the other one does. It just, it's just really, I could not figure it out. So for me to like, come around and come to the same conclusion that like, he had been feeling like, I don't think we should raise our kids in the church. And then for me to like, have finally have a revelation of my own and come to that conclusion on my own, he couldn't force me. And when people, like, I'm very anti authoritarian, like, I don't do well when people try to tell me what to do, like, it's going to make me do the opposite, you know. So I was really digging my heels in and the more I felt pressure from him to leave, the more I wanted to stay. Like, you know, it's just you can't make the decision for people. And so I had to, like, I came about it in my own way, in my own time, in the moment when things, you know, things had to click. And he was so happy. He felt so much, really, there's so much anxiety that, that kind of fell away and, and we're, we're more connected. I think we're, we're back feeling more on the same page. It's, you know, it's hard when you and your partner don't see eye to eye on something so important and so influential in your life and in your children's lives. So anyway, he wrote me this really nice letter and it was, you know, and he got me this necklace and it's, it's an onyx black onyx stone. And he was, you know, talking about the symbolism of it and it being like, you know, a reminder of my black ancestors who are looking down on me, who are really proud of this decision that I'm making. You know, the circle represents like eternity. And, you know, no institution can claim they have power over the nature of our relationship or our marriage or our union. And then also, like a symbol that it represented to me was the new moon, like a new start. And I thought a lot about the moon. The week I resigned, I was playing in a production of a musical production called Bloody Cabaret, which I also encourage you to look up. The music is gorgeous by Kagan Breitenbach and Megan Joy. And I played in this performance in this beautiful song about the moon. And, and I was thinking about like, you know, God is often compared to the light of the sun or like the celestial light. Celestial. The brightness, you know, in the visions to Joseph Smith, the divine bodies being as bright as the light of the sun. And I just felt like, you know, what the sun, the brightness of the celestial kingdom, the whiteness, the obsession with the color white being the bright white light, white skin, white clothes, white purity, whatever. Like I was like, but, but the sun, that, that sun, the light of the sun, it just was feeling too harsh. Like you can't even look at the sun. It burns your eyes, it burns your skin. It can cause cancer if you're exposed to it too much. I mean, I understand like the, the analogy and the value of, of light because I mean light and fire. Fire is what like allows humans to survive and kind of gave us a leg up over like the animal kingdom. Right.

John Dehlin [03:40:28] The sun's the origin of life.

Liz Lambson [03:40:29] Yeah. Like, and plants and yeah. Sunlight is of course a source of life and goodness. But like I really like the, the soft light of the moon. It feels more comfortable. For me personally, I love that like it changes, it waxes and wanes. It help it causes the tides to move in and out. You don't always see the light of the moon, but it's there. And I feel like that represents to me like divine divinity in a way that I, that touches me or speaks to me where it's just softer and it's not always super present or visible, but it's there and it has power and, but it's just a gentle light. I really like that. So if I'm not going to be in the celestial kingdom with the bright light of the white celestial sun or whatever, like I'm okay being in the a lesser kingdom with a softer light. It sounds like where I'll be more comfortable

John Dehlin [03:41:50] by the light, you know? The song of the silvery moon

Liz Lambson [03:41:57] Sounds familiar

John Dehlin [03:41:59] to my honey I'll croon loves

Liz Lambson [03:42:01] tune there's some one so many wonderful songs a song to learn but so this necklace he gave to me. There's that but I also, I don't like to. Again, if you've made it this far in the program, I can tell you the deeper secrets. But also this, this dark black circle reminds me of a bullet hole. It reminds me of my dad. It reminds me of the people who died at Club Q. It reminds me of the people who die from gun violence. And it reminds me of how I don't want to live. I don't want to hurt people. And I will remember those who've been hurt. I won't forget them.

John Dehlin [03:43:04] Yeah, that's powerful. It's beautiful.

Liz Lambson [03:43:07] So yeah, I, I, I did it, I resigned. And I can I just put in an advertisement? I highly recommend resigning. I highly recommend it. I think you should if you're thinking about it, just go for it. Here's what I think. It's like when you, when you, it's like deactivating your Facebook account when you realize like social media is not doing. It's not serving me well, I think perhaps I should deactivate my account. Here's the thing with the church and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you resign your membership, when you submit a letter, there are ways to do it online, like QuitMormon.com or whatever. But I felt for me a couple things. I encourage you to write a letter of resignation if just for yourself. Document your feelings, maybe document. It could be a journal entry. You don't even have to give it to anybody. But maybe make a note, write down what led you to make the decision. And that act of writing it out is really cathartic, I think. And then you can share it if you want. And it might end up in the hands of John Dehlin and he might invite you to be on Mormon stories like me. But here's the thing. When you resign and I made a day of it, I met with my bishop's wife, you get a clean break. But, but people say like, oh, it's so, it seems so final. It seems like such a dramatic move. But like when you deactivate your Facebook account, it's still there. Like the church isn't deleting your records. You are your numbers there, all your information. Like, they will be so happy to flip that light switch back on at any moment. Any moment. Like, it's like you have to be re baptized, right? But I don't think you have to be go through the temple again. You don't have to get married again. You don't have to do all these ordinances again. All that's just ready for you when you want it back. You just have to get re baptized. But here's the thing. Ask yourself if at this point in your life, knowing what you know now, having experienced what you have experienced, would you choose to be baptized as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? I can say for myself that knowing what I know now, having experienced what I have experienced, I would not if I had that choice. The choice is there. I could be re baptized any moment. But I don't think I will. And I'm not choosing that now. But again, if you do resign, that option is always there for you. The church will gladly welcome you back and flip that switch back on, reactivate your social media account, have your name pop Back up on the records right now, it looks like my husband on the records is a single father with five children and no wife because I have disappeared. But believe you me, my record is still in there in their, Their system. It's still there. Yeah, they'll bring it back any moment for me. But there is something really wonderful about the, the, the act of resignation. It's like. It's like when you. You leave a job or something that you didn't realize was affecting you so much, like in causing you so much stress and anxiety and affecting more areas of your life than you even realized. And the church, as we've discussed, affects every aspect of your life. It really does. And, and so when you cut the strings, like, I cannot tell you, my husband. My husband is sleeping better. And he's not even me. He didn't even resign yet, but he's sleeping better. I feel so much more peace. I feel so much more in alignment with myself and with my values. I feel. I just feel so. And I feel so much more connected to the people around me because there's not something that's making me other. I've always. Well, not always, but I. I now really despise the term like being in the world, but not of the world because it creates this sense of otherness. And that's something that is a phrase that I learned through Mormonism. Don't. You're different than other people. You're different, you're separate. You're other in a better way. Like the, The Mormon way of life is better than the other ways of life, and I bought into that. But now it's like I am walking around and I feel so more. So much more, like, in harmony with the people around me. I don't. There's nothing separating us anymore. I'm not. I don't. I don't claim in any way to be better than them in any way. I feel more at one, and that includes with the members of the Mormon Church too, because I, I love them. There's a reason I joined, like I said. But, like, I see where they're coming from, and I know they love me. And I know that there are many who want me back who miss me, and I'm thankful that they value me in that way and I appreciate that. So I know that their, Their eagerness for me to, to have, like, to do, to, to return, I know that's genuine love. I know that they're coming from a good place. But, yeah, if you have, like, an interest or an inclination to, like, deactivate your account. I say give it a try, because worst case scenario, just re. Baptized. Just. Just go get baptized again. If you want to. If you want to rejoin. It's not. But it's not really like that drastic

John Dehlin [03:49:09] of a move, and you feel like you've benefited. I mean, you talked about contemplating the word affiliation. It's basically disaffiliation.

Liz Lambson [03:49:18] Yeah. To unaffiliate. I no longer have any obligation to reflect Any of. Any of it in my life. But the thing is, like, I can still. It's not an erasure of values or morals if, if you believe in things like right and wrong or ethics. Like, I have no doubt that I'm a good person. No question. I actually feel like a better person now because I'm being more true to myself. Like I said, it's a. It's a. It's a really good feeling. Yeah, it is. It is, like, really weird, though, that, I mean, that I wrote this letter saying I want to unaffiliate from Mormonism. I want nothing. I do not want. I want. This is. This is how I ended the letter. If someone asks me if I am Mormon, I want to be able to. To say no and mean that in every sense of the word. That's the power of the resignation. Because if someone asks you if you're Mormon, you can say no and mean it. And, and so if there are values or teachings or doctrines that you don't agree with, if you're able to say no, then no one can claim that you believe those things or sustain leaders you don't agree with or have values that you really don't. You know, I, I, it's kind of why I didn't tell people that I had any affiliation when I was involved with Black Lives Matter. It's why, when I'm in the art scene, there are a lot of LGBT people in the arts and music and dance. I work in. I work for Ballet West. There are. There's a very, like, vibrant community of, in, of dancers. I. It's. It's like being an artist. I'm with people who even, you know, outside of lgbt, I'm with people who are just. Just unique. That's what's cool about artists and creative people. Like, we push boundaries. We. We question the status quo. We go against the grain. We. We allow ourselves with our creative minds and powers to go places that other people aren't always willing or open to going. And anyway, so, you know, in. In the art scene, in the music scene, in the film scene, I have found Myself not wanting to hint at any affiliation with the church because I don't feel like that would reflect well and it doesn't represent who I am as a person. So it is just really wonderful, I think. And it's funny, the day, the day before I resigned, Saturday night, I was playing at the ballet and a musician next to me said, are you lds? And I said, as of tomorrow, no, I will be able to say that tomorrow when I resign, when I hand in that letter. And so many people have been really, really supportive and happy for me as I've made this step, and including my own former bishop. And that's the funny thing. I said to him, you can share this letter if you'd like, if you think anyone might be interested in it. So his wife shared it with her sister, who shared it with her brother and I, and then it made its way very quickly to Mr. Delin here. And here we are.

John Dehlin [03:53:30] Full circle.

Liz Lambson [03:53:31] Yeah. And that's the ironic thing is because I really, like, I wasn't sure I wanted to do this, which I expressed very, very quickly, but because, like, you know, I wanted to completely unaffiliate from Mormonism. And now I'm on a program called Mormon Stories. And so if you Google my name indefinitely, there's going to be like a search result that will probably come up forever. It's, it's now going to be on my, like, the word Mormon is going to be tied to my name now. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [03:54:16] Well, I, I these days tend to look at Mormon more culturally. Like, there are plenty of Jews that don't go to synagogue and don't even believe in God, don't even believe Moses existed, but they still are ethnically Jewish. So I view myself as ethnically. That's different for you.

Liz Lambson [03:54:36] My husband does as well. Like, one thing that I would say a lot in the time when I was really hanging on, I was like, listen, you're Mormon, but don't believe in it. That's your culture, that's your background. And I'm not Mormon, but I don't like to consider myself Mormon. I don't like to use that word to describe me, but I would consider myself a Latter Day Saint because I attend and believed and stuff. But now I do not consider myself Mormon or Latter Day Saint, and it's nice to be free of those terms. But in truth, though, there were 18 years of my life, so I joined when I was 18, spent 18 years in. And now that I've resigned, I can say that I have spent the majority of my life Just as myself.

John Dehlin [03:55:31] Yay.

Liz Lambson [03:55:32] Not as a Mormon, but there is a very significant period of my life where I had a Mormon story in. In the works. And I think I'm okay. I am okay with that. In fact, like I said, I would love to write this story down and include the things that I didn't say because I know I'll look back and be like, oh, man, there was that one thing, that one story. There are a lot of stories this could go on, but I would like to write it down and I feel comfortable about doing that and putting it out there because my Mormon story is interesting and perhaps might impact people in a, I don't know, a positive way or a negative way, but it's out there.

John Dehlin [03:56:26] Yeah. Well, Liz Lambson, what an epic 4 part multi day interview and the costume changes and the makeup artist and.

Liz Lambson [03:56:40] Oh, makeup by Sam Dawes.

John Dehlin [03:56:42] When you do something, you really do it.

Liz Lambson [03:56:44] I do. I know. That's my personality.

John Dehlin [03:56:47] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:56:47] That's how I live my life.

John Dehlin [03:56:49] And it was a sacred thing maybe for Margi and I to be able to be a part of your story and sharing it with the world.

Liz Lambson [03:56:56] Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:56:59] Thanks for being willing to share and be vulnerable, but also to educate us in ways you shouldn't have to educate us. But also, you know, because this, a story like this is a story quite like this has never been told in normal stories. Right. I mean, every story is unique, but this story, in so many ways, it's a first, so.

Liz Lambson [03:57:20] Oh, good.

John Dehlin [03:57:21] Yeah. Thank you.

Liz Lambson [03:57:23] I'm glad to have provided some fresh content.

John Dehlin [03:57:27] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:57:28] Some fresh stories. I have always felt a little bit different and a bit unique and I've learned to love that about myself.

John Dehlin [03:57:40] Yeah, well. Yeah, well, thank you.

Liz Lambson [03:57:44] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:57:45] I look forward to. I hope to see you performing sometime or elsewhere. I want to say I look forward to seeing the movies, but that might sound creepy be given, given the role that you're playing. It's a streaker, but.

Liz Lambson [03:58:00] Oh, gosh, there's a part of me

John Dehlin [03:58:01] that still wants to see it just from a body positivity.

Liz Lambson [03:58:04] Not a. Oh, yeah, no, it'll just be my backside. And honestly, like, a couple of the producers joined us as streakers. They wore masks so they won't be identified, but I'm. I'm just. It's like me, the one woman they could find to join the streaking group and then like three or four guys. Who knows if it'll even make the final cut. That's something about film too. Sometimes, like the movies don't Even come out sometimes. The projects never, like, are completed, but who knows?

John Dehlin [03:58:38] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:58:38] I may be immortalized.

John Dehlin [03:58:40] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:58:41] My bum, my bare bum.

John Dehlin [03:58:43] And good luck with your song. Good luck with your memoir. Far. Good luck with your acting career.

Liz Lambson [03:58:48] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:58:49] And I look forward to just following what happens. And I love Sam and I hope to see you guys again, even socially sometime.

Liz Lambson [03:58:57] Absolutely. We would love that.

John Dehlin [03:58:59] Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:59:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:59:01] Yeah. Thanks again.

Liz Lambson [03:59:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:59:03] And Margi had to run, but thanks. Thanks, Margi, for being my co host.

Liz Lambson [03:59:09] Lovely meeting both of you. Thank you for this opportunity. Experience. Very interested to see how it's received and what people think. And stay tuned for a future book.

John Dehlin [03:59:23] Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again, Liz, and thanks to the people who helped put multiple people put me in touch with you, by the way. It wasn't just one.

Liz Lambson [03:59:33] What?

John Dehlin [03:59:33] Yeah, I. No, I won't disclose who, but there were multiple people. What? Yeah.

Liz Lambson [03:59:38] How's that possible?

John Dehlin [03:59:39] Yeah, I think so. And so thanks to them for putting me in touch with you and thanks to you who stayed tuned, there's going to be a lot of people that won't want to watch 12 or 13 hours just because that's just the longer it is, the less people want to watch. And if any of you made it all the way through, maybe we'll have a party with you and me and Liz hang out.

Liz Lambson [04:00:05] Oh, my gosh, I would love that.

John Dehlin [04:00:07] Maybe Liz will play some of her bass for us at the party.

Liz Lambson [04:00:09] Yeah, I'll play my song for you.

John Dehlin [04:00:11] Can you do a bass solo?

Liz Lambson [04:00:13] Totally.

John Dehlin [04:00:14] I want to hear it if you can. I want to hear it.

Liz Lambson [04:00:16] Next time on Mormon Stories. All right, I'll bring my bass.

John Dehlin [04:00:20] All right, well, thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We hope you valued this and thanks to everyone who makes this possible. If you do value this programming and you want to see more of it, but, you know, you can go to mormorestories.org, click on the donate button to become a monthly donor. Anyway, thanks for sticking with us. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.