Introducing Heather Gay and Bad Mormon

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is January 30, 2023, and we are here so super excited to plug a new book that's coming out this week. The book is Bad. A memoir by Real Housewives of Salt Lake, the one, the only, Heather Gay. Heather Gay, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Heather Gay [00:00:24] I'm kind of having a full circle moment. This is where it all began.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] No, I learned from this book that your Mormon story began way you came on Mormon Stories.

Heather Gay [00:00:33] Yeah, but the vocabulary to articulate that Mormon story, really, this cracked the seal on the tent, I think, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] Oh, well, we're honored, and we're so thrilled to have you back. I finished the book last night. I think it's a really important book. Totally fun, totally interesting, totally compelling, and we're gonna be talking about it today. And it's not just us, Heather. There's more. We have Margi as my trusted.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:59] I feel like with every frame, we should just be holding.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Hey, Marg. Welcome.

Dre [00:01:04] Hello.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:04] I'm so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] And if Margi and Heather weren't enough, we have. Back in studio, Dre.

Dre [00:01:11] Hi.

Heather Gay [00:01:11] I need a book.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] I need a book.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:13] There we go.

Heather Gay [00:01:13] Plug it.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:14] Here it is.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] All right, well, the book is bad Mormon, and of course, Heather Gay is one of the six stars of Real Housewives of Snake.

Heather Gay [00:01:24] I mean, we're dropping like flies. The cast is dropping like flies. We're down to four right now.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Okay. All right.

Heather Gay [00:01:30] See what happens. Season four.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Is that right?

Heather Gay [00:01:33] Jen Shaw's. She's gonna surrender herself on February 17th.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] Oh, that's not fun. Okay. All right. We just got serious really quick.

Heather Gay [00:01:43] Well, prison tends to do that.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Yeah. So. Yes, but how many seasons now? Three seasons.

Heather Gay [00:01:49] We just finished our third season, and we're gearing up for season four to film in the next few weeks.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] Yeah, but season three hasn't fully aired. Is that correct?

Heather Gay [00:01:58] Season three has fully aired. It's done. Yeah. The final reunion episode aired, and, yeah, we're done.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] And for those who. What's that?

Heather Gay [00:02:07] Thank heavens, goodbye, and good riddance to season three.

Dre [00:02:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Well, it's been a real phenomenon, not just here in Utah, but across the country and the world. And so for those who haven't been following Mormon stories super closely or who are brand new, by the way, did you guys know that half of our audience has never been Mormon or LDS before?

Heather Gay [00:02:26] No way.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Crazy. And we just surpassed a hundred thousand subscribers, so think about that for a second.

Heather Gay [00:02:31] That's a True feat. And I'm so grateful to the Mormon Stories community. They've been amazing.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Yeah, we're excited. So, anyway, for those who haven't been following us or who are new, Heather and Dre joined us a couple years ago here in this very studio to tell their stories. Dre partners with you, Heather, in Love Labs, Beauty Lab.

Heather Gay [00:02:54] It is a love. Let's articulate that more clearly. Our podcast is Live Love Lab.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:59] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:03:00] Yes, our podcast is Live Love Lab, but we're business partners.

Dre [00:03:03] That's right.

Heather Gay [00:03:04] And because of that, in many ways, partners in life.

Dre [00:03:06] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Yeah.

Dre [00:03:08] Yeah. And, I mean, when we came on Mormon Stories, that was my birthday gift from Heather.

Heather Gay [00:03:13] It's, like, was my destination, has its perks.

Dre [00:03:17] And it really did, like, turn the tide, don't you think?

Heather Gay [00:03:21] Absolutely. It was the tipping point for all things Housewives and for me, emotionally and personally, and in my ability to really, for the first time, ever, own my story. I wasn't to the point where I could respect it yet, but I could own it. And that was the first time I ever said it out loud. So, Mormon Stories. I understand now why Dre was such a devotee of Mormon Stories and encouraged it to me over and over and over, and I can't believe I was so resistant to it, so afraid of it. And that, to me, was evidence of the indoctrination that anything not positive is, you know, circling the drain to hell.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Well, I am a scary guy.

Heather Gay [00:04:00] I know.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] I mean, if there's a bad Mormon, it might be me.

Heather Gay [00:04:03] You are the. I think you are the ultimate bad genie.

Dre [00:04:06] That's you.

Heather Gay [00:04:06] Were you the first bad Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:04:08] I mean, technically, John, the way you

Heather Gay [00:04:10] live, you're still just a bad Mormon. That's really it.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] Do you have to drink alcohol to be a bad Mormon, or can you be a sober.

Heather Gay [00:04:15] You can be a bad Mormon just by belonging but never being accepted.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:20] I was going to say Mormonism makes that really easy.

Heather Gay [00:04:23] Yeah, actually.

Dre [00:04:24] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] All right, well, enough about that. We're so excited to just dig into your amazing book. Dre, you are welcome to jump in. Kind of is the Robin Givens.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:34] What is it?

John Dehlin [00:04:35] Of Howard Stern.

Dre [00:04:36] Perfect.

Heather Gay [00:04:36] Okay, well, we're Batman and Robin, but sure, I'm Howard Stern in this scenario.

Dre [00:04:41] Lovely.

Heather Gay [00:04:42] If I thought it was a bad Mormon before, I know it now. And you are my Robin Givens.

Dre [00:04:48] Love it.

Heather Gay [00:04:49] I'll take it. I'll try to be a little less vulgar.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:53] No need. No need. I was gonna say, too quick plug for Dre, because Dre did her own interview in her own right, too.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] Well, they interviewed together the Thrive.

Heather Gay [00:05:01] But then I did her story, Marijuana.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] The Thrive story. I'm so. Yeah, with. Can I just say, I'm invisible.

Dre [00:05:07] Women.

Heather Gay [00:05:08] We are invisible.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:09] Her story is beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] Thank you, Mar.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:12] We could add that as part of

John Dehlin [00:05:14] Thrive story was amazing.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:15] Yeah. Like, she's worth.

Heather Gay [00:05:16] Amazing Thrive book coming out soon with

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Dre on the COVID Dre, my brain is scrambled eggs.

Heather Gay [00:05:23] And I will join you, Dre, for that. You do a lot of these, John?

John Dehlin [00:05:25] I do way too many. And so, yeah, Julie's going to add that to the show notes. Dre's amazing Thrive story as well. Anyway, so glad you're here. Should we dive in?

Heather Gay [00:05:34] Yeah, let's dive in.

What It Means to Be a Bad Mormon

John Dehlin [00:05:35] Okay. So this book, a memoir, coming out in February 2023, is about your story, and I loved it. And, you know, the basic premise is that you are a bad Mormon. A bad Mormon. I'm gonna say that in quotes, but there's a twist at the end that I'm really excited to explore. So what I thought we would do is go through kind of each phase, and the book is broken up into, like, five different sections or chapters, maybe six. But bad daughter, bad missionary, bad wife, bad Mormon, and badass. Sorry for the swear. Love that.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:11] Sorry. Not sor.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] But I thought what we would do is go through each section and touch on how you failed the church, but maybe how the church failed you in each of those eras.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:25] How does that sound?

Heather Gay [00:06:26] That sounds great.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Is that all right?

Heather Gay [00:06:27] Sounds fabulous the way I lived it. That's the way we should discuss it.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] Yeah. And then maybe at the end, we can talk about some legal intrigue that is worth discussing.

Heather Gay [00:06:38] That's part of the badass section. I mean, Dre and my attorney, Casey are part of the badass section that have really empowered me to press forward with all of it.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] Beautiful. All right, well, let's just jump in. And, Margi, of course, I'm so grateful you're here. And, Dre, jump in at any time. Okay. So, Heather. Actually, Margi, there are a couple of stories you wanted Heather to maybe even retell. And, of course, you can read from your book at any point you want to. Just read. There's some parts that are just so incredibly readable. Margi, you had a couple moments in the book that were really important to you, but maybe. Maybe to begin, Heather, do you want to just give a super brief background of, like, your parents and your upbringing just, like, in a minute or two to kind of frame it?

Dre [00:07:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] I mean, and you can state any Intention. You want to share about why you're here today and what. Why you wrote the book.

Heather Gay [00:07:27] Okay, well, I wrote the book, and the reason I'm here today is because I came here in the first place. I came to Mormon stories for the first time, told my story, and then in many ways wanted to put pen to paper and write that story out, not only for me, but for my daughters and for. If I was going to upturn, you know, 10 generations or I don't know how many generations, five generations of oxcart pioneers and firm in the faith. I wanted to make sure that I left no stone unturned and that I, you know, told it from my perspective the way I experienced it with, you know, no sensationalism. I just wanted to write it down and see what it looked like. But yeah, I grew up Mormon and struggled. I always belonged, but I never was really accepted. And I think that's an important distinction. You know, belonging isn't necessarily being accepted. And I think that that applies to people that aren't just Mormon, but in every corner of the world, in any high demand insular community or family, high demand family or high demand expectations, you know, where you belong somewhere. But you're not necessari ever gonna be accepted unless you let the most precious parts of you die. And that's kind of the narrative of bad Mormon. And I really wrote it just for representation and visibility for the people that walk away. Our stories are never really told with the perspective they should be. You know, they're demonized or they are erased. Erased?

John Dehlin [00:08:57] Yeah. And it sounds like you're not gonna be erased.

Heather Gay [00:09:01] Well, for the longest time, I wanted to be, you know, I just wanted to disappear. But now that this opportunity, especially with housewives, I feel like I owe it to all the people that sustained me and got me through and over the hard, hard, you know, stumbling blocks of obligation and duty to God that were really not real, you know. You know how Jerry always says to me, sounds made up, and it's crazy how thoughts can really imprison you, you know?

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Totally, totally beautiful. Tell us really quickly about your parents and kind of where you were raised in your childhood before you came to Utah.

Growing Up Mormon in Colorado and Utah

Heather Gay [00:09:39] Yeah, I mean, I was born in California, lived in Colorado for the most part of my life, then moved to Utah when I was 15 and graduated from high school in Utah, went to BYU, went on a mission, got married and did everything. All the Mormon milestones, one would say. And my family was devoutly Mormon, but really cool. And my extended family, pioneer stock. Both my parents Pioneer stock, ox cart pioneers, converted to the gospel in England, came over, sold everything they had, rode over on ships and then did the trek across the plains. They settled Plain City, Utah and American Fork, Utah. Robinson park is named after my great, great, great grandfather. And the roots run deep. They run deep. And I've always been deeply, deeply proud of them and felt an oblig perpetuate that same legacy.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] And the main family names, It's Carver

Heather Gay [00:10:42] Hinchcliffe McLean on my mother's side, and it's C. Strand Robinson Chipman on my father's side. William Henry Chipman had three wives and was part of the, you know, some of the original trekkers across the plains.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] So your dad had an interesting profession that I think is going to play into a couple questions Margi's going to ask. Do you want to talk about that? Sure.

Heather Gay [00:11:03] My dad worked for the FBI and worked and then parlayed that career into Bureau of Land Management and then parlayed that into oil and gas leasing and then got. Was an entrepreneur, kind of a perennial entrepreneur. And then after he retired, went back to school and became a high school teacher, which I think was probably his greatest love and legacy, being a teacher, which I didn't really get into in the book because I tried to really just tell my story from my perspective and not appropriate anyone's stories or experiences because that felt like what has happened to me for my whole life, you know.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] So, yeah, beautiful. Your mom was kind of a. Is glamorman a right word? Like, what's the way to describe your mom's vibe, especially growing up, you know,

Heather Gay [00:11:54] my mom was one of the 10% that do everything. You know, how they're those women that are. They have the great kids, they're creative, they're smart young women's activities fun. They make their primary lessons fun. If they're choir leader, you know, they have the best felt boards and the lyrics. And she was just supremely competent at all things creative. I think she was a wonderful writer. I think she was a musician. She could sing alto anywhere, anytime. She knew all the words. So she was just. She wasn't glamorous as much as she was just. Just supermom.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:30] Yeah. Sounded like she was just excellent at so much of her.

Heather Gay [00:12:35] Excellent at being a mother to six children.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] And what did it mean? What were the manifestations of being the perfect Mormon mom for your mom? Like, how did it show in the home?

Heather Gay [00:12:47] I mean, magical Christmases, magical Easters, like Sunday dresses, you know, curled hair, being in the roadshow. My mom writing the lyrics for the roadshow. You know, my mom, you know, being up there teaching primary or in young women, she brought like gummy bear, little pop bead necklaces for everybody and helped design these sweatshirts that looked like paper dolls. You know, she just, she just had that extra, you know, she was fun and funny and didn't take herself too seriously, but worked hard, you know, worked hard to cultivate the home. You know, we had every Valentine's Day there was like curly ribbon attached to the chandelier to a gift on our plate. You know, there were scavenger hunts. Every birthday felt special. You know, she just hit all the top line marks. So those memories of childhood are really embedded. Just the top notes. You know, I don't remember a lot of pain as a child. You know, I feel like I had an idyllic childhood.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:48] Yeah. I was gonna say the thing that I thought also that was so impactful to me about your mom is it wasn't just like she did all the, like, what would I say, the external things, like the things that show up at church, you know, when you're looking around to be like a. But she also did all the, like, you can't get away oftentimes in the role of mom from just also laundry, like meals. And she was there for all of that too. That is, it is so much to hold for a human being. So it's all, yes, that external. All those extra, extra mom things. But also took equally seriously all the mundane. Yeah, the unpaid labor, the magic of daily life too.

Heather Gay [00:14:37] Yes. She had like a food storage system where the cans rolled down and we had to pick up the cream of chicken soups and bring them upstairs. You know, she had the laundry baskets with our names and the sock pile and we all. She just ran us through all of those tasks and just the amount of work to not only do it herself, but like micromanage all of the kids. I just, I would never have the capacity, emotional, physical at all. I don't know how that generation did it without just, I don't know, dying inside or self medicating. I don't. It's very intense.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] There's a major theme in your book about women becoming kind of working moms and professionals. And I know your, your business collaboration kind of exemplifies that. Having said that, Margi, having been your partner when you were a stay at home mom and not working outside the home, there's a lot that we can say about how hard it is to be a working mom in some ways, being a stay at home, mom not working can be harder. Does that resonate at all?

Heather Gay [00:15:42] I mean, I think it's all hard. I think being a mom is hard. And it is a job that we feel. You know, it's just so hard. And it's harder when you work outside and have to it just. And it's harder. It's all hard. It's hard staying home. It's hard working outside the home. I think it is harder probably to do both, because just because you're being stimulated outside the home doesn't mean that any of the pressures go away. It's just that you're feeding a tiny corner of your soul. Whereas before, you might be starving, but the workload multiplies.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:23] I know. Sometimes it's almost like you add to it.

Heather Gay [00:16:26] Yeah. It's like someone's gonna climb Mount Everest just because they need that fulfillment. When they get to the peak, it's like. Like you are in it. You know, you're knee deep, you're sludging through, but you know that the reward is what you're there for. So you kind of sludge through it. Would you agree?

Dre [00:16:42] Yeah.

How Mormonism Shaped Her Childhood Home

John Dehlin [00:16:44] So what did. How did Mormonism manifest itself in your home? In terms of, like, if someone were to walk into your home and experience how Mormonism was lived in your home, what would be the Mormon elements of your childhood?

Heather Gay [00:16:59] I mean, I didn't even know Mormonism was the center of my universe. Just like the sun. I didn't know how the sun rose or what it meant to other planets or what it meant to people on the other side of the world. It was just my entire universe. All of our friends, all of our associates, they would walk into our home and they would just think we were an all American, wonderful family. There might be. I mean, we had, like, a cool matted framed picture of Kirtland, Ohio, when it was first organized, and then a tiny portrait of Joseph Smith with some of his original money, which now, to me is so overtly Mormon. But back then, I thought of it as, like, museum art, like American history. I didn't understand the distinction between Mormon history or Mormon money and America. So I thought I was Joseph Smith. My beloved prophet was, you know, equal to George Washington. So we would have little relics of. But mostly just family pictures. And, you know, we didn't have a picture of the temple. We didn't have. We just lived like a great, normal American family. There'd be food and the house would smell good. It'd be clean.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] Did you do the family prayer, scripture study?

Heather Gay [00:18:11] Yeah, we did Scripture study. I mean, for ourselves, privately, we did scripture study. And we would have family prayers and we'd pray before meals, and we just, you know. But I didn't even think we were supremely religious, you know, I just thought we were God fearing, God loving family, you know, Norman Rockwell. I thought Norman Rockwell was a Mormon. Of course he's a Mormon. He did those paintings of the mom with the kid, you know, at the drugstore, and the dad and the postman and the dog eating an ice cream cone. You know, I thought Jesse Wilcox Smith was Mormon. I thought all these. If an artist drew a mother and a child, I just. It was the center of my universe. It was the only faith. It was the only religion I knew. Think anything existed outside of it that would have been more important or more valid?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:01] And it was the ideal, you know, it totally worked.

Heather Gay [00:19:05] It was ideal.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:06] It was like what you were shooting for.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Tell the story about the soccer match that your dad got into.

Dre [00:19:13] A little.

Heather Gay [00:19:14] Okay. A kerfuffle. Yeah, a kerfuffle at the soccer match.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] And if you want to read it, read parts of it. You can. Or if you just want to tell the story.

Heather Gay [00:19:21] Yeah. Why don't I read a little bit it.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Okay. So I'll. While you're looking for it, I'll just

Heather Gay [00:19:25] say I know exactly where it is.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:27] We can frame it.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] Yeah. You want to.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:29] I kind of feel like. And this goes really well, I feel like, with what you're saying, Heather, this idea that you had this really insular, idealized version of how the world works. And I thought, for me reading the story, this is like a moment where there's something from the outside that comes in that allows you to see that some. It's not exactly. People see it differently than you do. People experience Mormonism.

Dre [00:19:57] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:19:57] And they expose you to a reality that, like, you never understood was even bad.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:04] Exactly.

Heather Gay [00:20:04] You know, like, I didn't have any concept that the underwear that my parents wore was any different than underwear that every parent wore.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:14] Yes.

Heather Gay [00:20:14] And there were things that confirmed that, because there were men that wore kind of weird tank tops under their dress shirts that you'd see occasionally. And then my mom would look for the garment line. And I just. I knew that other people didn't wear garments because we always would look for garment lines. But I guess I thought those were bad people. And that was a way for us to know not to, you know, like, stay away from guys in windowless vans and guys that don't have garments, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:44] Danger.

Heather Gay [00:20:45] Danger.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:46] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:20:46] Stranger danger. And this Is my dad was, you know, a cool dad, and he was funny, and people loved him, and he was our soccer coach, and I was the only Mormon on the team, and I knew that. And so I was always on my best behavior because I was so proud to be the only Mormon and to be the best. So I wanted to live up to it, you know? And I have the great dad that never says damn it under his breath or spikes a soccer ball and is the one that brings treats and cheers us on, you know, and gives us this. So I had the cool dad that I was, and I had.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] No, it wasn't the fight with other parents at the soccer match.

Dre [00:21:26] No.

Heather Gay [00:21:26] I mean, he was an intense sideline coach, of course, and this is where this happened. But I think that this was the only time, like, I really saw my dad argue with anyone openly like that ever. And it was. But it wasn't the fight, because that felt just like normal soccer game. I mean, soccer games back then, baseball games back then, they were the wild, wild West. But it was the slur that he hurled at my dad that totally shattered my naivete that it, like, penetrated your reality.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:00] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:22:00] And I felt shameful. Like, you know, not only were they talking about my dad's underwear, but.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Let's read it.

Heather Gay [00:22:07] Something weird's going on. Okay. I'm gonna take a sip of water.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] This is from Bad Mormon a memoir.

Heather Gay [00:22:15] And P.S. i turned right to it. It's page 29, which is my birthday. 6 29.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] It's meant to be.

Heather Gay [00:22:21] I mean, you could tell me any story, and I could point to the page, because for the first time, I have a story now, and I love that it exists and I can refer to it. I'm not gonna get emotional except for every other word. Okay. I'll never know or be brave enough to ask anyone what started the fight on the sidelines that day. My dad was probably challenging a bad ref call or calling out a heel raise on a throw in whatever was considered normal banter and parental sideline coaching in the 1980s would get you thrown off the field and kicked off the team in today's safe sideline spectator rulebook voices were raised and the background chatter grew silent. Suddenly, as I was running down the field in my perforated double ply polyester, I became aware that the kerfuffle on the sidelines involved my dad and that everyone was watching. I saw him roll his eyes, shake his head from side to side, and mumble as he began to storm off. As soon as his back was turned the other parent yelled out, that's right. Take your daughter and your funny underwear and go home. The blood rushed to my ears and time stood still. Funny underwear. My dad flipped around and charged at the man, grabbing his T shirt with both hands. He was raging. The other guy braced himself and they stood there heaving and holding each other at arm's length like two elks with their horns interlocked. A few bystanders shouted at them to knock it off as concerned parents on the sidelines quickly separated them. My dad's comb over had been shaken in the altercation, and while his friends pulled him away from the fracas, he smoothed his hair back into place and muttered angrily, never looking away from the man he was forced to retreat from. What had this guy said? Why was he teasing my dad about something as stupid as underwear? My dad didn't wear funny underwear. My dad wore garments he was prone to supporting a one piece romper with a back flap. Perhaps not really a flap so much as overlapping fabric that created a closed effect until you bent over, pulled the two overlaps apart in order to use the bathroom. It was exactly like my mom's garments, except hers were made of a silky material and had lace trim. That's the only underwear I had ever seen them wear, but I'd never really thought of it as something to make fun of. And more important, why did this guy care about my dad's underwear? I had been folding my parents garments in the laundry for nearly a decade. It was just underwear to me. I didn't know there was anything unusual about it. None of us did. When my little brother came across an advertisement in the Sears catalog for children's long johns, he was overjoyed. Mom, dad, look. He squealed running into their bedroom with the pictures displayed. Garments for kids.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Those are my favorite lines. I texted you. I texted you and I read that line.

Heather Gay [00:25:10] I mean, we joke about it still as a family, like oh, how funny. Garments for kids. But we wanted garments too. We didn't even know. We just thought when you became an adult, you wore garments when it's the

John Dehlin [00:25:23] water you swim in. As a Mormon, you think it's just super normal, right?

Dre [00:25:27] Yeah.

Temple Ceremonies and Sacred Rituals

John Dehlin [00:25:27] You also mentioned there's this wonderful scene in the book where you talk about doing the Hosanna shout because the Denver Temple.

Heather Gay [00:25:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Was dedicated while you're living there and you do the. Do you want to talk about doing the Hosanna shout?

Heather Gay [00:25:38] I mean, the Hosanna shout.

John Dehlin [00:25:41] Do I tell our non Mormons what that is? So.

Heather Gay [00:25:44] Well, the Hosanna shout to A non Mormon would be a ritual chant done in mass. Staring straight ahead with a Kleenex over your head. And it's like a flat. It's a rhythmic chant. And I don't know if I feel comfortable doing it here because it's pretty culty. And it's even cultier, you know, if you're a 13 year old going like. And everyone's staring straight ahead going, hosanna, Hosanna. You know, that's freaking weird.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] And the lamb. Right.

Heather Gay [00:26:24] And those were words that were sacred to me. That was the spirit of God is like a fire is burning. Those were hymn lyrics. And I had never seen anyone chant in church. I had never seen anyone use, you know, speak to God directly. And it felt terrifying in a way, because there was no opportunity to be like, what are we doing here? Somebody explained it was just like, you look at your parents, you look in the room, you look straight ahead at the prophet and he's just going, hosanna, Hosanna. You know, and it is scary because you realize, welp, you know, don't mess with this. I mean, that's. It's like watching witches do a spell, you know, kind of use this to. For what it's meant to use.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:14] And the thing about that, if you compare it or contrast it a little bit with garments where you kind of. You grow up from the time you're little, you know, having your parents watching them, knowing that they wear garments. But with the temple, there's this removed. Right. So you grow and it's like a mystery. You hear about it, but you don't know. But we know it's the pinnacle. We know everything important. Right. Happens in the temple. So you had no exposure to this temple, kind of. So to have it completely out of context. No, it gave you like a different perspective. You were like, whoa, wait.

Heather Gay [00:27:51] And it didn't feel spiritual. The temple never felt for you. Yeah. Doing the hosanna shout does not feel spiritual. It feels culty.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Yeah, that's hard to say, right?

Heather Gay [00:28:06] Yeah, it's painful to say because you tell yourself if it feels weird to you, it's because you're full of sin. So purify and purge yourself of these doubts because clearly you need to get over that hump so that you can get to the other side where everyone else is in this spiritual bliss and they're feeling the spirit of God enter the room and enter their hearts. And, you know, I was taught to be so kind of subdued about my religion in a lot of ways. Like, you know, don't point out your garments. Look happy and normal. But then when we get behind these closed doors where everyone has told me, your soul will be enlightened, God is present. And as soon as God enters the room, we're saying the same words over and over. We're chanting and we're separated, men and women, and we're wearing weird outfits. That's where God. So why am I going to church? And why am I told that personal prayer is important? And if what's important is me doing ritual.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:29:07] It's disappointing.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:08] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:29:09] But instead of feeling disappointed, you feel ashamed and you feel lazy. A lazy learner. I'm not disciplined. I should find meaning. I mean, I would try to find meaning in those names on those cards that they'd give you in the temple. I would think, oh, her middle name has an H. This is someone that asked me to do her work for her. And I'm so glad I didn't go out with my friends or, you know, stay home with my children that I'm here in the temple just for an endowment.

Dre [00:29:36] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:29:36] Putting on robes or doing these things for this woman who's just in heaven weeping and watching behind the veil for this sacred event that she can also now be with God. And now that I'm out of it, I'm like, God loves her. He's not gonna be like, listen, I put it on Heather Gay. She screwed up. What can I tell ya? You know? But that is the pressure we feel.

Dre [00:29:59] But it's apophenia, right? Like, looking for meaning.

Heather Gay [00:30:03] Oh, searching for meaning.

Dre [00:30:05] Things that may or may not have meaning, but.

Heather Gay [00:30:08] Yeah. And in college, we realized that. My devout Mormon roommates realized that, and we called it mtb. And we would mock people that would use apophenia. Meant to be, because we'd see people making foolish choices or getting married after a week or, you know, getting pregnant. They're on their honeymoon because it was meant to be. God wanted this to happen. God wanted, you know, to get in a car accident so that I could meet the. You know, and it was everything meant to be. And we would mock them. But the truth was we had to draw aboard a barrier so that we could make sure that we weren't that crazy.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:30:46] But that's what I kind of talk about. Like, the line started to slip, you know, especially when you go through the temple and you see the rituals you're making. And by the way, we're getting the watered down rituals.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:30:58] The rituals my parents took would have made me scared to talk to my kids, too.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] You mentioned the throat slitting with the thumb in the book.

Heather Gay [00:31:05] Well, the throat. The tongue ripped out from its root.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:31:09] That's, you know, things. Things that my. Those were the oaths my parents made. So of course they're not gonna kneel down when their kid asks a question about their green apron and say, honey, it's really just symbolic. And let's talk about it. Because I'm sure they wanted their tongues attached to their heads. You know, I'm sure they didn't want to disembowel themselves for speaking of these things outside the temple.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] And for me, that was one of the really powerful, profound parts of the book, is how you wove the temple ceremony. All throughout the book, you mentioned the sure sign of the nail, even at the very last chapter of your book, and it's really, really powerful. And you revisit it multiple times. And I won't give too many spoilers,

Heather Gay [00:31:49] but if you think about it, the sure sign of the nail or the patriarchal grip has had a stronger hold on me than any other tenet of my life. And in its, like we were always saying, like, fight the patriarchy. The patriarchal grip is what kept me connected to my family, to my faith, to my, you know, salvation, and to my personal relationship with God. And in its name, it's a patriarchal grip. Why aren't we even questioning that? You want to say my friends want to come at me and say, I'm an equal in my marriage, I'm an equal in this church. You are wrong. You are confused. You are too sensitive. Honey, the patriarchal grip is what governs every choice you make. And it is only through that patriarchal grip that you get to get into heaven. And it's named. Do not call yourself a feminist. I will not get on the KKK train and call myself an anti racist. You know what I mean? I think that alone, if words have power, that's good. And words have power in this book, then change the grip that gets us into heaven to the divine grip from God and not the patriarchal grip.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:03] And maybe not even a grip.

Heather Gay [00:33:05] How about not a grip? How about a loving rope pole?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:09] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] What'd you say, Dre?

Dre [00:33:12] A caress.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] A caress.

Heather Gay [00:33:13] Well, caress gets creepy, too. Let's be honest.

Baptism, Music, and Early Faith Memories

John Dehlin [00:33:19] All right, Heather, I want to. There's so much to cover, but I want to go back to your childhood really quickly. The. The scene that has you with your baptism and the bathroom. I really want you to retell. You can just tell it yourself if you Want to reference the book? You can, but, Margi, you had mentioned wanting to set this up or.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:37] Yeah, well, these. There were a couple things that were kind of related to me. The first was the story you told about cutting the curtains and ever tell it or I don't. It's up to you.

Heather Gay [00:33:51] We can tease the curtain.

Dre [00:33:53] It's one of my favorite stories.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:55] I really love that there is a part of you that I recognized in that story where, you know, in short, I'll just summarize and then say the framing for me. But in short, it's kind of like both your parents come home. Cut curtain, you are playing and trying to do a robot kind of thing. I was being creative and developmentally appropriate. Exploring. Yes. Imagination, creativity. And they come home and really. Question, question, question. And you are committed to, like. Nope, nope, wasn't me. Nope. Even though all the signs. But amidst that what I loved. You made a statement that was really funny about the robot having. I did not lie. I did not cut that the robot had a malfunction.

Heather Gay [00:34:46] Yes. The robot pincer had a malfunction.

Dre [00:34:48] But the thing.

Heather Gay [00:34:49] Talk to the robot.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:53] But the pressure of that. The pressure and the connection lost. And your absolute. There was something in you in that moment that I recognized that was really moving to me, a piece of you that was just sort of relentless to yourself. But the greater message that I related to is this perfectionism, this idea of, as children, the pressure we feel to not make mistakes, to, you know, that was completely developmentally appropriate with your baptism story. That's another, like, example, which you can tell. But the framing for me is just the intense pressure. And what happens internally to us as children when we feel that love is always, like, conditional. Yes. Like one step away, one action away from being taken, you know, and that's what I really felt from that. That was really impactful to me. But I don't know if you want to go over that. I feel like a lot of people will relate to the baptism story.

Heather Gay [00:35:56] Well, I think that it. I mean, let me just pull the room here. We're all bad Mormons here. I mean, do you all remember the first lie or the first. First dark black mark on your slate after your baptism? Do you remember the first thing you did bad for me?

John Dehlin [00:36:09] It was a thought.

Heather Gay [00:36:10] It was a thought.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Yeah. Because thoughts are sins and.

Heather Gay [00:36:12] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But you know what? You.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] It was a bad word.

Heather Gay [00:36:15] Yeah, you thought a bad word. You thought. Darn it, John.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] You thought.

Heather Gay [00:36:18] Darn it.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] I'm sorry. I'm just being honest. Is that too much for you?

Dre [00:36:26] Did I remember?

Heather Gay [00:36:27] No, Margi, what was yours?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:28] I remember it was. It was a lie. And. And how I felt, and that's what I. I felt from you, was how pivotal is for a child to think they can be clean and then in one move be dirtied, ruined, soiled.

Heather Gay [00:36:44] I ruined it.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:45] Yeah.

Dre [00:36:46] What was yours? Do you remember yours? I don't remember what it was, but I remember being nervous to take the sacrament.

Heather Gay [00:36:51] It was literally the week after my baptism.

Dre [00:36:54] And like viscerally remember, like, oh, no, know.

Heather Gay [00:36:57] I hope that I can take the sacrament.

Dre [00:36:59] I hope I've repented enough. I hope that I'll be clean again. And I mean, absolutely was so real. So real.

Heather Gay [00:37:08] Well, I'll. Should I read mine?

John Dehlin [00:37:09] Yeah, if you want. Yeah. So while. While she's checking. This is Heather reading about a baptism and a post baptism experience from her book, Bad Mormon A memoir published by Simon and Schuster. It's a wonderful book. There's an audio version of the book as well. I listened to the audio version version and thankfully, Heather herself narrates it also while she's looking. One of the things I really love about this book is all the pop culture and music references. So, Heather.

Heather Gay [00:37:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] While you're looking for this, I'm just gonna throw it out here that this

Heather Gay [00:37:40] one's harder to find because it's embedded in Ashley's. Yeah, but I got it.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] But also, there's something substantive here.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] I have a dream, a bucket list to karaoke with you two because I didn't realize you loved music as much as you do.

Heather Gay [00:37:56] Oh, Monday night karaoke's at the Highlander on Highland Drive.

John Dehlin [00:37:59] You guys karaoke at Highlander up in there? Yes. Oh, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:38:02] We're not gonna go far for karaoke.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] All right, I'm in.

Heather Gay [00:38:05] What's your karaoke song?

John Dehlin [00:38:06] Oh, I do Vienna by Billy Joel. That's one of my.

Heather Gay [00:38:08] Oh, I love. I just felt unreserved affection for you. That's a layer I didn't know of your onion that I had not peeled back.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] What's yours? What's your good.

Heather Gay [00:38:18] Well, mine is I like Papa Don't Preach, but I love a duet with Dre. Any duet Dre will do with me. How about you, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:24] I would love to see what's yours? We just did. We were in Mexico together and we.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] Oh, we did George Michael.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:31] Faith.

Dre [00:38:31] Faith.

Heather Gay [00:38:33] Look at us, you guys.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] We shaked our booties.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:36] That's right. We actually did the opener where he does the.

Heather Gay [00:38:38] You Gotta have faith.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] All right, so it's a bucket list. All right, Heather.

Dre [00:38:43] I do want to mention, too, that Heather has a playlist on Spotify for the book where all of the songs that are referenced in the book are on, you know, a central playlist. And it is pure fire.

Heather Gay [00:38:55] I listen to it all the time. It's like the playlist for the book. So this is from this chapter that we're reading right now is Somewhere that's Green, which is of course from Little Shop of Horrors. I'm a huge show tunes girl. And it's when Audrey is singing about all she wanted was just like a little plot of land, a picket fence, plastic on the furniture, you know, somewhere that's green. And I am in the midst of the dark times of my marriage. My daughter's about to be baptized. I am planning this perfect, perfect baptism. And I'm setting up how important it is to me that her baptism be monumental, not only for her, but for my own identity as her mother and a good Mormon mother. And then I reflect back on my own baptism. Okay. I remember every part of my baptism, down to my first lie. The first mark of sin on your perfect clean slate is a milestone a Mormon never forgets. You come out of the font as clean as the white towel you're wrapped in and you want to stay that way. But as it turns out, it's really hard to stay perfect. A few hours after my own baptism, I was using the bathroom and my dad accidentally opened the door. Lock the door next time, he scolded. I did. I retorted too quickly and without thinking. Silence. His response pierced my 8 year old heart. You just told your first lie. I ruined it. Two hours in and I ruined it. My stomach fell to my toes as I walked. As I sulked.

Dre [00:40:36] Sorry.

Heather Gay [00:40:37] My stomach fell to my toes as I sulked in the quiet solitude of the unlocked bathroom, too afraid to even lift my head and face my reflection in the mirror. I wanted Ashley to remember more than her first lie at her baptism. I wanted her to remember how much I loved her. I wanted to create enough happiness around her and the event to distract from the holes in my own heart. And so I made it a white party modeled after Kyle Richards herself. White everything.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] So as a child, you. You probably felt pretty intensely that need to not only be perfect externally, but spiritually, morally perfect as well, right?

Heather Gay [00:41:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:41:20] Absolutely perfect in every way. I got it. I got to start over fresh at 8. Remember how great that felt? Clean, white, everything. And I think subconsciously I wanted to do what maybe a lot of parents do is make the event so monumental for Ashley that she would feel that internal pressure to honor it with, you know, being good. I don't think that was ever a conscious thought. But when I think about huge missionary farewells for missions, you know, Billy came home, my ex husband came home early from his mission and he, you know, I always wonder if I'd had a huge missionary farewell, if I had had the huge banquet and gotten all the money and all the checks, that I probably would have stayed out of obligation. But he kind of went while his parents were away and it was just like a sacrament meeting and not a lot of fanfare. And so he didn't feel a lot of pressure to stay. And I don't know if that made an imprint on me, but I look around at my families and I see we do these pictures of the missionaries with the flag and the Book of Mormon and the cookies with Argentina, you know, and the big huge fanfare in Catholic. Guess what that is Pressure to stay. You have a million dollar wedding, you're not walking out after six weeks. I think that we do that a lot and we create it so that it's a big deal, which makes, just digs us in a little bit deeper.

Worthiness Interviews and Learning to Navigate the Church

John Dehlin [00:42:50] Let's jump to adolescence really quick. I really want to get to a BYU story, but do you want to talk about, you know, you eventually moved from Denver to Utah. I think you grew up in Holiday, is that right?

Heather Gay [00:43:01] Yeah, in Holiday. Just around the corner. Murray Holiday Road.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Here we are. Do you want to talk about worthiness interviews and your bishop and law of chastity and kind of how that all played for you, especially growing up in a super Mormon high school in Utah.

Heather Gay [00:43:16] Yeah, I mean it was different, the chastity interviews, because you really start having interviews at the age of eight, you know, where you are alone in a room with a man and asked to respond to all the questions about everything. Dirty thoughts, stealing candy, not obeying your parents. And so I had already learned and mastered kind of that choreography of the interview on the ones where there's a little gray like are you respecting your mom and dad? You just do the grimace and the sigh and really trying bishop, you know, but then you just, but you know, to just. And then when they get to the hard ones, like, you know, are you having immoral thoughts? No. You know, then they've built. You have a little credibility so you can get through those. And like, you knew not to answer too quickly. You knew not to answer, you know, to Give them any. And I knew how to get through those. I don't think I ever, on any occasion, intended to ever really be honest, because I was too afraid.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Were you hiding things from your bishop?

Heather Gay [00:44:21] Yeah, because that bishop was my best friend's dad, you know, and that bishop was best friends with my dad. And that bishop saw me every Sunday. And that bishop. So if I read a section of Twin Peaks that talked about a girl trying to, you know, pleasure herself with a faucet, and I had tried on multiple occasions to slide my butt down so it would work. It didn't work. I mean, it didn't work. And so I thought, why waste his time with that? Because it was also my deepest, darkest, most painful sin. And did he want me to tell him that? Did he want me to tell him that I was trying to figure out the physical mechanics of a bathtub faucet two inches away from the wall and my body? You know what I mean? And so I learned to dance around it. But then I had a specific interview

Dre [00:45:12] where

Heather Gay [00:45:14] he pressed in and said he was inspired by God to ask me about touching myself. And of course, all of those times you've skated around anything, you think, well, this is the real Bishop. This is the one that's inspired. This is God. God had time for me today in this moment. You know, we're taught to believe it's such a personal connection, and so you're not sure if it's kind of a battle of wits, you know, how are we going to get through this? So you tell him a little mostly to pander to his ego. A lot of the time, you know, and especially when they say, I feel inspired, that swearing's been a problem for your friends and you're worried about it. You'd say, it has been. It hasn't. You're just pandering to his ego. You also don't want to deny the fact that he's inspired. And it's apophenia. You're gonna say, looking for confirmation? Yeah, like, bishop, you're dead ass wrong on that one. Nope. Try again. Try again, Try again. You just don't do that. So I just remember getting asked specifically about touching myself over and over, and he just wouldn't let it go. And it was so uncomfortable that I made stuff up. Not about that, but, like, about boys. And just enough to be like, oh, Bishop, I'm so glad you're inspired so that I could get this off my chest. And I did not feel relief. I did not feel forgiven. I felt ashamed. I Felt labeled and he made sure I knew. And I'm sure that I took, you know, if I had been evasive or obstinate, he would have called my parents and it would have meant, lock her up, she's doing something wrong. And I really wasn't, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:59] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] And what's it like to learn to lie and deceive? Because you're still believing, but you're learning how to game a system while still believing. So in a sense, this system that holds itself up as the pinnacle and the source of all truth and righteousness is kind of teaching you to lie. What's that like?

Heather Gay [00:47:20] Yeah. Well, you don't realize that you're gaming. I mean, you, you are definitely gaming the system. But to be. I think for me to belong to such a high demand faith, you start by lying to yourself very, very early. So lying to others doesn't feel like deceit. You're just perpetuating the same things you're telling yourself every day. Like, this isn't coffee. This is a latte, you know, or this is the Costco mocha freeze. This isn't coffee. You know, it's the lies that we tell ourselves so that we can live with ourselves because. Cause the demands are, I don't wanna say so rigorous, but they're so far reaching, you know, and sometimes they're really contrary to who we authentically are. So in order, you just continually lie to yourself. So when you're, you know, I didn't think about being sinful. I just wanted to lie to myself that I would never read Twin Peaks. Bishop, that's disgusting. You know, so lying to him was just a perpetuation of the delusion that you're already under. You know, but you. So you learn to deceive yourself first of all. And that's why, you know, you don't even know that the Holy Ghost is just you. You tell yourself every bad thought is from the devil and every, you know, good thought is from God and that you have no role in it.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:39] Totally. Can I just say. And it's so. I think a key part that you bring out so well is this idea of the system. The church kind of creates it. They create when love, belonging, salvation, your family's salvation, when these things are on the line and we're talking about thoughts, actions, and just being human. The fact that we learn as we like this is just being human. We learn as we go. We experience mistakes are part of the breathing, being alive. But then they tie things like love, belonging, safety, you being with your Family. When that's the cost. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna lie. It creates this dichotomy of, like, yeah, I'm gonna do what I have to do out here to get my needs met. Cause that's what we all do. And then those other parts of us kind of get. We kind of cram them down. They're just for us.

Heather Gay [00:49:41] Or we let them die altogether.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:44] That's right. In the darkness.

Heather Gay [00:49:46] I think when you let them die altogether, it's a peaceful, better way to live. And I lied to myself and told myself that that was the refiner's fire. That was purging myself of all infirmities and sins and bad thoughts. And that was purity. But there's no way that purity can be the death of self. It's the opposite.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:05] Right, Exactly.

Romance, Identity, and Life Before Marriage

John Dehlin [00:50:07] So, speaking of getting your needs met, we're gonna talk about Robert Barnes. Is that his name?

Heather Gay [00:50:13] Oh, no. James Barnes.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] James Barnes.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:16] That's so funny.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] We're talking about.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:16] Laugh Out Loud.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Speaking of getting your needs met. So turn to that fake name.

Heather Gay [00:50:21] Fake name to protect him. But it was an even funnier name.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] But okay. So, Margi, you. This is the first scene Margi read to me. She read it to me in the kitchen. And this is a great. This is. Is this the best.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:35] I mean, this right here, one of the best scenes.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] You want to talk about why you loved it while she was.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:38] I don't know. It'd be hard to pick a best scene. But what I would just say is the writing. The writing, this scene. And this is the thing. I'll just give a little plug for the book because we're gonna give Heather a minute. But it's just like, I did find myself feeling all the things in this book. You have this sense of loss, loss of parts of Heather, loss of relationships, you know, a loss of the way things might have been. Then you laugh. You laugh out loud, and you just feel all the things with the book. And I laughed out loud with this section.

Heather Gay [00:51:15] That makes me so happy. Because, of course, humor is my love, language and music. But there is so much, like, sadness in this unlived life, you know? And that was part of, like, the grief. I think I felt the most. Writing the book is these sliding door moments where you just absolutely denied who you were and what you wanted for something. A greater promise. And then when that greater promise isn't fulfilled, there's just. It's really easy to turn to bitterness and resentment and sadness. But that won't work either. So we just forge ahead and we Attribute it to weakness, laziness, sinful nature, you know, man, but it really is our magic.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:02] It is the magic. It is your magic.

Heather Gay [00:52:05] And guess what? Every time I go back to this restaurant, I remember and I see that tree, and I see it with such different perspective now, and I regret. I have deep, deep regret for all the times that I had duty to the Mormon Church instead of duty to that part of my soul that, you know, my into self.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] Yeah, we have news for you. Guess. Guess where Margi and I were engaged.

Heather Gay [00:52:32] In the Tree Room.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] At the Tree Room.

Heather Gay [00:52:35] Margi. This is our book. Margi, you're gonna oust Dre. What's gonna happen?

John Dehlin [00:52:41] That's impossible.

Heather Gay [00:52:42] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:42] Never doing that.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] Do you really want me to give us whatever background you. This has to be captured on film.

Heather Gay [00:52:47] Okay, okay, okay, okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:49] So this is gonna be. You said it's James Barnes. Barnes. Is that the name?

Heather Gay [00:52:52] It's James Barnes iii, but I didn't put that part in either.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:56] And it. It takes place at the Tree Room,

John Dehlin [00:53:00] which is at Sundance, at the tanning school. So, Robert, for those who have never been Mormon. While Heather's looking this up, I'm stalling. Robert Redford, the famous actor, came to Utah, bought a bunch of land up the canyon, Provo Canyon, and created a ski resort called Sundance after his role in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. And he created this super cool restaurant called the Tree Room, which has a huge tree right in the middle of the restaurant that's going through it. So, Heather, you were working where?

Heather Gay [00:53:33] I was working at Electric beach tanning salon on 9th and 9th.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] I love the word you used as a what?

Heather Gay [00:53:38] As the tanning engineer.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] Tanning engineer. I've never heard that term.

Heather Gay [00:53:42] Promoted to manager.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Okay, take it away, Heather.

Heather Gay [00:53:45] And this is. I'm trying to see a good part to start. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:52] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:53:55] Despite the cold, dark winter of the honor codes domain, when I returned to Provo and my job at Electric Beach, I was happy to provide patrons the sights, sounds, and sun of summer all year round. Rich or poor, honor code abiding or defying, we made the UV rays shine down on all of them. Our beds did not distinguish between saint and sinner. Electric beach was a safe space for everyone, even older men with sugar daddy potential. When James Bond sauntered up to our counter, he seemed out of place for the average college student customer. I asked if he had any questions and geared up to pitch him on buying a bottle of lotion. I got 7% of the store's gross lotion sales and the Only customers who ever splurged on them were the ones not paying tuition. He was an easy mark. I had him fill out the customer card and began to enter his data into the computer.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:43] Name?

Heather Gay [00:54:43] James Barnes, Idaho.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:46] Hmm.

Heather Gay [00:54:47] Not local, but not far. October 5th, 1963. 1963. He was 33 years old. Definitely had discretionary income for our finest bronzing lotion. I started with a quick speech about the damage caused by the sun's rays and the danger of a tan that fades too quickly and glided right into the different pricing tiers of lotion that would prevent all of these woes. I'm going to skip ahead. I sell him on taking me out. Cause don't you think we should get to the tree room part?

Dre [00:55:17] Right?

John Dehlin [00:55:18] So he asks you out.

Heather Gay [00:55:20] So he asks me out and I go and I have him meet me at the tanning salon. Cause I was smart and safe. Didn't want an older, possibly non Mormon man. I was pretty sure he was non Mormon because he was 33, he liked me, and he. He liked me, and he was 33.

Dre [00:55:38] And single.

Heather Gay [00:55:39] And single. Oh, that's what I meant.

Dre [00:55:40] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:55:41] Single, not married. That I knew of. 33 and into me. So every sign pointed to non Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] And it's worth mentioning that I think you mentioned in our interview that you were a little big for the guys at byu. And I mean big in a personality way and in a.

Heather Gay [00:55:57] In all ways, John. In all ways.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] No, no, no. I meant personality wise.

Heather Gay [00:56:01] I know. You know what? I actually read an article the other day that really changed my whole perspective on that. And I remember the first time I was here, we. We tried to explain to you what FP was. Fat potential. You know, and I knew that physically I was bigger than the cute, you know, petite blondes that were getting married up by the dozen. But Julia Louis Dreyfus said that her dad told her she was too big, too broad. And if you've ever met her, and I did get to meet her at Sundance, she is like five foot nothing and petite as a bird. And what she meant was her magnetism, her personality, her effect on the world was too big, too broad. And seeing someone be described that way that's so petite, helped me realize that I absolutely was too big, too broad for byu. You know, it didn't work for my faith, for everything.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] So this guy's showing interest in you?

Heather Gay [00:57:00] Yeah, he asked me out. He's, you know, seems he's got a silver Mercedes. He wants to take me out to

John Dehlin [00:57:06] dinner with his name embroidered on the Dashboard.

Heather Gay [00:57:09] Yes. He had some weird flecks that you'll read about in the book, but the date was pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] So you're in the tree room.

Heather Gay [00:57:18] We're in the tree room.

Dre [00:57:20] And

Heather Gay [00:57:22] let's see. Let's get to where he. Okay. While the server left.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:28] Wait.

Heather Gay [00:57:29] The waiter asked him if he would like a nightcap and he casually asked if they had any dram buoy. While the server left to get his drink, he used the opportunity to take my hand in his is. He interlaced our fingers and traced my palm with his thumb. When his drink arrived, he raised the snifter up and tilted it to catch the light. Do you see the flecks of gold? Yes, dear God, yes. I see it all. Take me now. Dram Buoy is a golden scotch whiskey liqueur. He swirled it in the glass and held it up to my nose. Smell this. I closed my eyes and inhaled deeply. Too deeply, because I heard him chuckle. My eyes snapped open. It's incredible, right? I nodded lamely. Dram Buoy comes directly from the hills of Scotland and is infused with honey, spices and one very special ingredient. He took a sip and handed me the glass. Drink some and then lick your lips.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:22] So dumb.

Dre [00:58:23] I just.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] What are you feeling?

Heather Gay [00:58:30] I mean, I can taste that drambooie. And I can remember licking my lips and like him describing this to me and thinking my mind is opened and I can see, you know, and just having this moment of adulthood, of adult womanhood, of being a girl on a date with a man and having it all be make believe, you know. I held the glass to my lips and swallowed. It burned, but it wasn't bitter. I licked my lips and could taste the hills of Scotland. I could feel the passion of William Wallace. I could hear the groan of the Loch Ness monster from the deep. He leaned in across the table. Did you taste it? Uh huh. Yeah, I think so. Take me. I believe it doesn't matter what you asked me to do. I'm going to do it. Drambooey me all night long. He dipped my finger in the glass and put it in his mouth, pulling me closer. I was about to climb across the table or climb the trunk of the giant namesake tree in front of me. He took my finger out of his mouth and held onto my hand. The secret ingredient is heather. He put his other hand under my chin and pulled my lips to his. He kissed me softly and slowly at first. And I could taste the dram buoy and the honey and the hills of heather on his Tongue. They harvest the natural heather and then infuse it into the whiskey. It's subtle, strong, and rare, just like you. Check, please.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:03] That's.

Heather Gay [01:00:04] I'll leave it at that. You have to read. You have to buy the book to hear what happens, so.

Dre [01:00:07] Good.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] So. And I. I love that. That actually, you know, because this is one of the most comic comedic parts of the book, and yet you're feeling a whole different set of emotions right now.

Heather Gay [01:00:19] Well, that's probably how I process most of my pain, through humor. But it was funny, too. You know, life is usual, usually Dre and I always say it's beautiful, sad, funny, and true. And those are the moments that are most poignant. And that's why I think this story is beautiful, you know, describing the experience. But it's also funny, and there's some sadness. And it's true because it's exactly what happened. And it was a moment that, you know, I probably. Most girls have 10,000 of, but it was my only moment ever.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] Aw.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:57] I feel that so much.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] Only moment ever.

Heather Gay [01:00:59] Like, only real moment on a real date with a real man that really was interested in knowing who I really was.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:05] Was.

Heather Gay [01:01:07] And knew that maybe the secret ingredient was Heather.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] You know, you haven't had that since, like, even after the divorce and everything.

Heather Gay [01:01:16] No, I think that part. That magic is far behind me now.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:20] Yeah. I thought. I love the symbolism in it, because I did feel like reading it. You were fully present for a moment in that date. Just experiencing that. It felt like the conditioning left for a minute, and you were able to just be yourself, experiencing sexual attraction, joy, pleasure of a moment without all that stuff. And so it literally was like Heather was there in that. And then before long, the conditioning comes back and you're back on the. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:01:58] It's like the backdrop drops back to my reality, you know, the next morning, and you walk away.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] I was wondering in the book if you've contacted him since. If you know him.

Heather Gay [01:02:11] No. He'd be 90, so. No, I have not. You know, for all I know, he was a cad from Boise with four children and a wife. You know, I don't know. It didn't matter because it was just a moment for me to be. It was like my womanhood. Like, my womanhood wasn't turning 18 and getting a young woman's medallion and having my personal progress book signed by 15 leaders. My moment of feeling feminine and a sexual being and an attractive being, and a whole person was probably on that date.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:49] Yeah. Yeah. And it happened in minutes.

Heather Gay [01:02:54] In minutes.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:54] Yeah.

Dre [01:02:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] So you, you serve a mission. I, I love to learn that. You were like a concert level pianist at a high school. I didn't know that.

Heather Gay [01:03:07] I gave it up. University of Utah is a party school. I'm not going to take a scholarship to a party school, John. What kind of Mormon do you think I am?

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Yeah, but you all, I mean, there's your entrepreneurial stuff at byu, which was super cool. Doing jewelry for down, you know, Down East. Was it?

Heather Gay [01:03:21] Yeah, Down East Outfitters and Nordstrom and Sundance.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] Right. So we'll fast forward though because we can't cover it all. So you meet, you meet your ex husband, Billy Gay, who really is Mormon elite. Mormon royalty. His grandpa had known Howard Hughes.

Marrying Into Mormon Elite Society

Heather Gay [01:03:41] He kind of run the Mormon mafia, you know, he was the famous, well known, well connected Mormon.

Dre [01:03:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] And the gays, like I worked for Bain and Company, you know, Billy's brother would have been a really important part of Banning.

Heather Gay [01:03:55] Yeah. Billy's uncle Bob was partners with Mitt Romney for like 25 years. And they were the founding people, I think at Bain.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] Bunch of venture capital stuff is happening in the gay name anyway. Gay name is a big deal. There's a general authority, right?

Heather Gay [01:04:07] Yeah. Well, it's Bob Gay. He was Mitt Romney's partner. He's retired, hired now General emeritus or whatever it's called.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] So there's, you know, the great parts, and we talked about this in our interview where you meet Billy and, and you, you realize you're marrying into kind of wealthy Mormon royalty and Huntington beach and all that. But, but you marry him and it just seems like, I mean, there's so much we could talk about that, that marriage. Margi and I probably talk the most about your marriage to Billy and I. I was struck by how hard you were trying to be the perfect Mormon wife. You had failed at being the perfect Mormon child. You failed at being the Mormon teen. You failed at being. You were a great missionary.

Heather Gay [01:04:58] I don't know that I failed because it's the, it's the one mark. You know, it's the one.

John Dehlin [01:05:03] You're the most successful missionary in your

Heather Gay [01:05:05] mission, but success, but not to God was 100% obedience perfection. You've ruined it. You know, you stole fizzy lifting drastically.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] You know, you saw Titanic on your mission. Is that why you can't?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:16] I can't.

Heather Gay [01:05:17] That's a tease, John.

John Dehlin [01:05:18] That's a tease. Okay. I just ruined it.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:21] We can't give it all away, John. We can't give it all away.

Heather Gay [01:05:24] There's so many nuggets in this book. But I was bad at all of it for different reasons.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] Because you can never be good enough in Mormonism, right?

Heather Gay [01:05:33] But you can't be a bad wife when you have kids. You've got to make it work. And the only plan to make it work is what? 100% obedience. And if you are 100% obedient, the windows of heaven will be opened upon you so much that you will not be able to receive the blessings. Right. And that's the one promise that we're given in the temple. That's the one spiritual part of the temple. That's the one promise that outweighs all of the discipline and all of the sacrifices that you are sealed not only to God, but to this man and to your children. So if you're ever gonna dig deep and let all of those parts of you die that are taking you away from the new and everlasting covenant, it is now. Cause now it's, you know, it's done. I've made those oaths. I've kneeled across that altar. My fate is still. I'm still sealed to Billy.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] You mean now?

Heather Gay [01:06:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] Yeah, Right. And your kids. Do you and Billy? Yeah. So what I was going to ask two of the scenes from your marriage that were really Margi and I talked a ton about. One was the Southwest Airlines stock scene, and the other was the baptism. Preparing the baptism for your daughter's scene. But what. Without necessarily needing a. Really dig into those, I wanted to know what's the pressure like to live in Salt Lake City to marry a wealthy, connected, general authority, connected apostle, connected, wealthy Mormon family, and then to try and be a perfect Mormon mom in the shadow of the temple, in the shadow of this wealthy, connected Mormon family. And to try and be a mom in that shadow, well, it's a wife.

Heather Gay [01:07:24] It's a little bit misleading because I too, was Mormon royalty. I felt like I was really the catch because he had. The reason that he was royalty was cause of his grandfather, but it was really his mother. I mean, it was really his mother that was the most devout of their whole family. And I was kind of the. I was the real Mormon pioneer. You know, I didn't have any aberrations of, like, ever. Everyone in my family was active. You know, everyone was temple going. Like, I felt like I was the prize.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] So it felt like a lateral move to you.

Heather Gay [01:08:01] It felt like an arranged marriage because he was the first Mormon guy that liked me that was over 6ft tall, so I didn't feel hulking and who had money and A family and a career. So it was like I felt like, oh, I had given up hope of the package deal, but here it is, and I'd be a fool to walk away from it. So it wasn't. I didn't ever feel in the shadow of his wealth or connections because I was, you know, the captain. I knew the scriptures forward and backward. He had come home early from his mission. He had, you know, a sister and brother who weren't active. His dad, they hadn't gotten sealed in the temple till he was 15. You know, they had been a little bit, you know, wayward. So he had this name and this money, but he had the religiosity, I had the religiosity, and I had the street cred in terms of the faith. So I felt like it was a perfect match, you know, equal oxen yoked together. But the pressure, the thing that I didn't ever realize is that's how I felt going into the marriage. But the way the world saw it was I only became visible, and I was only had, like, cultural currency. Not because of the fact that I was like my mom and a great mom and creative and contributor and hard worker, but because I was married to someone of wealth and stature in the Mormon Church. That visibility was so obvious to me. It was like I walked through a door, and all of a sudden I'd be at a thing and they'd say, oh, you're married to Billy Gay. His grandpa was Mormon mafia. And then the heads would turn, and I felt it. It was tangible.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:44] Wow.

Heather Gay [01:09:45] The credibility was tangible. And that is probably why it made it so devastating for me when he rejected me and divorced me, because I had felt the difference. Even though I was the same contributor. I was Relief Society president, I was, you know, missionary, successful. I was all these things, but none of that ever carried the weight of marrying him. And P.S. none of that mattered until I was married anyway.

Dre [01:10:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:09] Which is just really an additional power differential in a relationship. Absolutely. It only adds to that.

How Mormonism Strained Her Marriage

John Dehlin [01:10:17] So what if you had to describe how Mormonism failed you and Billy because you get the sense that you knew in the honeymoon that it probably wasn't the right fit. Describe for our audience maybe how Mormonism and its plan and its model for marriage maybe failed you and Billy.

Heather Gay [01:10:38] You know, it's so funny because I still think, well, it failed me because I didn't fit. You know, I still see it as the great edifice, you know, and I didn't fit in. Like, I couldn't get small enough to get through the door or big enough to climb out. But the way that the program failed both of us was that we were both trying to supplant the personality of a good member of the Church of Jesus Christ over who we really were. Which meant that parts of me would have to die in order to be a stay at home mom. That was dedicated to my husband and children and to nurture, you know, everything that the family proclamation states.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] What parts of you had to die?

Heather Gay [01:11:18] I mean, what parts of me had to die?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:20] Everything.

Heather Gay [01:11:21] I mean, self divination, first and foremost, that's a pretty big part of your identity. My authority in the home, in life, my ambition, my goals, my dreams, where I wanted to live, what I wanted to name my kids, what I want, you know, I mean, it's all compromise. But when you're in a arranged marriage of sorts, none of it's compromise. It's all little. A thousand little deaths, you know, death by a thousand little counties. Cuts, paper cuts, I guess you'd say.

John Dehlin [01:11:53] Do you have a sense for how Billy had to die?

Heather Gay [01:11:55] Yeah, Billy absolutely had to die. He had left the corporate business. He wanted to be a filmmaker, he wanted to be an entrepreneur. And he also, his personality didn't really lend himself to being a I'll take care of everything guy. And I thought just. But he probably assumed that a good Mormon mom would be an I'll take care of everything mom, you know, which. That's what we do. And I wanted the provider presider to make me feel safe. And I didn't want to have to make decisions anymore. I didn't want to have to make money. I wanted to just sit on a pillow and have babies and decorate and raise them, because that's what if I stayed within that box, then I would never want or need for anything. And that was somewhere that's green. A little patch of land with a little fence, a dog and a baby, and a husband that worships me. But he wanted to not do any of those things. So what I wanted from him, he was running away from. And what he wanted from me, I didn't have in it to be. And that's how we both deluded ourselves. We lied to ourselves, saying with the gospel, with a family, the things that are pulling us away from this will die. Refiner's fire purify your heart, you know, Suffer. Yes, suffer until martyrdom.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:19] Yeah. Self betray. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:13:21] Duty to God over duty to self, which is really betray yourself to follow the program and to avoid the shame and fear of all the horrible things. I mean, I think our marriage would have failed if we if sooner if I hadn't been able to get pregnant. The children kept us, you know, me, absolutely kept me 100% committed. It would have failed if we had had sex before we got married. Because once we scratched that itch, we were like, we gave up a lot to scratch that itch. Really.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:54] That's such a important point.

Heather Gay [01:13:55] We blinded ourselves to scratch this itch and have sex. And it was worth it in that moment. But I didn't realize that sex gets old pretty fast when there's nothing else there. You know, when you've been deprived for so long and you're sealed for, you

John Dehlin [01:14:12] know, for eternity, you're sealed.

Heather Gay [01:14:14] Yeah, I mean, everyone understands, like, the anticipation and then, you know, you have. And I don't want to just say that's why it failed, because that's. But that was just why we got married, for sure, amongst all the other things.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] But the church, number one, doesn't let either of you really get to know who you are, heal from your traumas, and then spend enough time together to know that you really wanna spend a lifetime together. It's just like, oh, you're both righteous enough. Get married, start having kids, figure out your career, and you'll be happy. And your book makes it really clear.

Heather Gay [01:14:46] I mean, I agree with that. But I also wanna add, and I hope the book reveals this, is that the church also teaches you to not reveal everything you are.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:55] That's so big.

Heather Gay [01:14:56] And so you don't. You would never sit down. And I don't think a guy would ever sit down with a prospective virgin bride and say, listen, I struggled with pornogr for about 10 years, but I want you to know it's gonna be a struggle throughout our marriage. But if you stick with me and, you know, you know, we don't reveal, I don't ever say, you know, I almost ran off to Scotland with a glass of drambooie and a backpack. You know, we both present who we want to be, and who we want to be are pure vessels of the Lord. We show our personality, we say what foods we like. We know the latitude, the parameters that we can play with. There are certain variables that you can express your identity with and feel zero fear, like, oh, I hate sports, action films, or I hate football. We feel comfortable saying things that stay within the confines of our sandbox of what a Mormon girl is supposed to be. And he does too. So he would never tell you before you married him that he likes to put on women's panties, you know what I mean? But a guy now would. And that's what I think it is. Like we just don't reveal to ourselves who we really are. Billy did not want to wear. I mean, not that that's a bad thing, but he didn't. I just want to make sure that I make that decision. Just clarify. I'm just trying to find some shocking, innocuous thing.

Dre [01:16:13] Yeah, right.

Heather Gay [01:16:13] We don't reveal that to ourselves, let alone to our prospective spouses.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:18] And that is part of the conditioning. And I think for many of us that conditioning is also present in our families. So then you have layers. Like your family works that way where, you know, you don't reveal because you get punished or. And then you have the kind of church layering. So all you're experiencing are the select, like sunshine things that get us approval. That's what we're having a relationship with. All that other stuff we buried, remember, like, no one's getting to that.

Heather Gay [01:16:47] We lead with. I'm addicted to Diet Coke and I'm always 10 minutes late.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:51] That's right.

Heather Gay [01:16:52] My kids are such a mess. We're microwaving dinner tonight, kids. I mean, we think we're so self deprecating, have all these layers. We don't say, you know, I'm crying in the fetal position in the shower because normally we're not. Because we never even get that raw or real with ourselves unless something pushes us over the edge. Divorce, a child that's errant, you know, finding out about addiction, suffering from addiction, a car accident. I mean, it's big life things that force us through that facade that we've created. It's a glass castle that we build to live in. And as long as it never shatters, you can get from A to Z,

Margi Dehlin [01:17:31] you know, it's so true.

John Dehlin [01:17:33] But when does it not shatter?

Heather Gay [01:17:34] You know, I think it's shattering more and more now because of the social progress that we're making and because the visibility. Like, my brother was 50 years old before he googled anything about Joseph Smith. And he's an attorney that works in compliance in Switzerland. He's bilingual. He's a genius. He's a smart, educated, funny guy that watches independent film and speaks three languages, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:01] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:18:02] And memorizes baseball stats. And he didn't ever know anything about Joseph Smith that was negative. And I think there's a lot of really smart men and women out there that are the exact same way. And you know what they would say to me? I don't want to know. Don't tell me.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:19] I also wonder now if more and more it's the children that are bringing it to the parents, either by not wanting to go or social issues that they identify as lgbtqia. So that I wonder sometimes now if just statistically speaking, the kids now are leaving at alarming rates. So it's.

Heather Gay [01:18:37] And it's this total cognitive dissonance for parents who have sacrificed everything to keep their family together and keep it eternal. And now by clinging to those tents to. They're losing their children. And so it becomes this dilemma of, do I believe in the gospel, fixing everything in the celestial kingdom, and me going down the elevator to visit my children and say, get married to a man. Be this. And then you can come join us at our table. And, you know,

John Dehlin [01:19:07] so I was happy to see. And I think you. I'm sure you did this intentionally. Of all the bads, you know, in the book, Bad, bad daughter, bad missionary, bad wife, there's never a bad mother. I know you love your daughters, and I'm. I'm happy to see that you're probably somewhat proud, if not extremely proud, of how you've been as a mom. But have I? What? I really. I just want to throw that out

Heather Gay [01:19:31] there, you know, the reason that there really isn't a bad mother is because I don't think there is such a thing as a bad or a good mother. I think a mother is just a physical thing where you give birth to a child, you know, and it's. That is bad or good is every woman's choice to divinate. And it's not society's gaze that's between that child and that woman. And because I'd been identified by all these things, you know, I just thought, I'm not going to critique my motherhood because I'm still in it, and I'm finally becoming the mother that I want to be to my children. And bad mother, if anything would come after badass, because the world would see me now as a bad mother. Because I'm saying to my kids, be who you want to be. Explore what you want to explore. Tell me everything. Ask me everything. Don't tell me any details. You know what I'm saying? I'm doing all the things. Wear a crop top, you know, wear, explore, explore, date. I want my daughter in college to have lots of experiences. Healthy, wonderful sex, affirming sex, positive experiences. I want her to be drambooeyed all night long by anyone that she even feels a spark with, and through that process, discover who she is. And how she relates to men or women and what kind of person and life and marriage she wants to have. So by the church's standards, I would be a bad mother now after I became a badass.

John Dehlin [01:21:05] That's powerful.

Dre [01:21:06] But I just want to pipe in really quick and say that when we were talking at the beginning of the interview about your mom, I see so much of your mom in you, and I don't think that anybody really would ever think that you're a bad mother. You're a wonderful mother, just like your mom's. You make everything magical for your kids and you give them every tiny ounce of yourself, and they feel that, and I see it. Yeah, bad mother would never apply, Heather. Ever.

Heather Gay [01:21:44] I was such a bad meth. I was gone for four days in Toronto doing that press tour, and I was like, parenting through my phone and had Alexis took em Cafe Rio. And I just felt like once you leave the church, you fall off the cliff. Your kids are raised on TV dinners. Look what happened.

Dre [01:22:02] No, Heather, you love your kids. You're a wonderful mother. And you're right. Mother is just a thing that we are. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:07] Yeah.

Dre [01:22:07] Like, whether we birth them ourselves or we adopt them or whatever, however we come to be in this role of mother, that's all it is.

Heather Gay [01:22:14] Yeah.

Dre [01:22:15] It's our role.

Heather Gay [01:22:16] And you can be a killer businesswoman and a bad mother and a good person. You can be a bad mom and a good person. You know, we've not forgiven women that latitude.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:24] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:22:25] But bad dads, nobody gives a shit. If you're a bad dad, you'll still be president of the United States. You know what I mean? I don't know if there's bad dads that are presidents, but I'd assume.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:35] Yeah. One thing I love and I find is true about parenting, and I'm seeing just really in you is sometimes will go through and have a wound. Like, I see a loss for you that you navigate in the book about, you know, this sense of connection to yourself. And, you know, sometimes we don't. We don't get to get that back. You know, that's. We have to kind of salute it from ashore and let the ship sail of, you know, what we didn't get or what we didn't have or didn't experience. But. But I have to say, like, it is. It can be healing. And I'm curious if this is it for you, and I see this in you is that thing that you didn't have. You are now providing your daughters. You are providing them now something you didn't get right. And that's connection to themselves, room to explore and get to know themselves and develop trust in themselves to navigate all the things that are kind of asked of us to be alive, you know. And sometimes that's all we have. It's the best we've got.

Raising Daughters and Embracing Their Autonomy

Heather Gay [01:23:41] Very healing to watch. I mean I have daughter, just a sophomore in college and to have her make all these choices and this autonomy and this self awareness, you know, and some of it is ridiculous and fun because she's 19, but a lot of it is absolutely blossoming into the woman she is. And she said to me, you know, the world is so big. And like just those words to me, she's in Santa Barbara on I la Vista. You know, it's like this big, but just leaving this and seeing herself in a totally different context. She's absolutely becoming her own person and it's an honor to even be a part of her life, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:26] Yeah.

Losing Faith and Deconstructing Her Beliefs

John Dehlin [01:24:28] Let's jump to what a summary of what caused you to lose your faith when you came on Mormon Stories. I don't think you were fully processed in your testimony. I think you were still very conflicted if you had to spend five minutes talking about your faith journey out of Mormonism. Take, take people through kind of how you deconstructed and what sources or what things you learned that really were the shelf items that broke it for you.

Heather Gay [01:24:57] Well, coming on Mormon stories, I did as, as a gift to my dear best friend.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:07] Cause their love is true, their love is so true.

Heather Gay [01:25:09] But I Mormon stories and people that leave the church and I don't wanna say anti Mormons, I'm say bad Mormons had been demonized in my mind as qualities that I did not want that I think I was afraid to be associated with. So despite my cognitive dissonance, despite my shelf, I didn't feel even had a shelf being broken because for me it was really like I never put anything on the shelf because that's just where I lived, you know what I mean? Like I didn't. It was based on this is my identity. Every choice in my life had been informed by Mormonism. So I didn't know how to walk away without becoming an ex Mormon or a Mormon stories listener which had been demonized to angry, bitter, offended, overly sensitive, immature thinkers and just disgruntled, you know, like the Karens of the world that are asking for their rebate. You know, I just, that is what I feared. And then even though I knew people that loved it, I just thought, I don't want to paint myself with that brush ever. I never had any intention of vocally, openly speaking against the church. And that's what I think I was still like, my tongue was loosed after coming on here and realizing at that tipping point with the outpouring of support from the Mormon Stories community, I mean, we could say that that was 100% what caused my shelf to break in a beautiful way that like, or gave, gave me a community and an identity and a safe place to give my story and my experience any validity. Because everything I've done has no value in my immediate family and my, maybe my extended family, but in my community, it just doesn't. You know, I went to a Christmas Eve party and they asked me how I'm keeping busy. And, you know, they all know that I'm on like three TV shows right now, writing a book, you know, opening a second location to a million dollar business that I started from scratch as a side gig. Like, I am so proud of so much. They know I have a daughter in college. How are you keeping busy and what are you gonna do when Annabel graduates? And that is what my life was, you know, still defined by, by the Orthodox, by being a mother and a daughter. And they're not asking me what my calling is, which would have been the next question if they knew I was still active. So it's just the elephant in the room. But I forgot the question now.

John Dehlin [01:28:06] So your shelf started to break.

Heather Gay [01:28:08] It broke when I had this outpouring of love and support and I didn't have the courage to not believe yet. It was like I'm swinging on a vine. I wanted to cling to it because it was all I knew. And it would be like saying, you know, if you were Greek, it's like, well, you're not living the Orthodox rules, so you can't be Greek anymore. You can't eat our food, you can't come to our parties, you can't sing our songs, you can't do our dances, and you can't tell anyone you're Greek because we're going to openly attack and reject you. And when I came on Mormon Stories, I was being openly attacked by all the Mormons. They were discrediting my experiences, discrediting my story, discrediting anything I said about the church. They were fact checking my opinion, and that was quite problematic. So after I came on Mormon Stories, the audience just really reached out, showed support, validated that I wasn't the crazy sinner that had gone, you know, haywire. I was in a community of other brilliant, smart, accomplished, like minded people that were also grieving the sacrifices that they had made for an institution that the second they didn't adhere to it, rejected them. And not only rejected them, but punished them and shamed them. And so it was really having that life raft, that community that gave me the strength to respect my story and respect my experience and now share it with people. And that was when. And I said, I don't want my name on the records of this church, you know, and started the paperwork to be done. Something I clung to because I didn't wanna hurt my parents feelings. But guess what? My dad's passed and my mom didn't speak to me on Christmas Eve. So I don't want to be associated with an institution that is this destructive to families and to women who are trying to make something of their way in the world.

Dre [01:30:06] World.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:06] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:30:07] Because I, I think that it's both, you know.

John Dehlin [01:30:10] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:30:10] Nobody likes an uppity, uppity Relief Society president. Uppity. Actually, you know, it's just.

John Dehlin [01:30:19] Did you have to deconstruct Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and the theology? And if so, how did you do that?

Heather Gay [01:30:24] I haven't yet.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] Oh, okay.

Heather Gay [01:30:25] I'm in the process of doing that. Dre and I are writing a miniseries about the Joseph Smith story from the perspective of Emma. We started a production company and it's going to be, it is going to be really Dre's catharsis of all of it too, I think, you know, because you've been distanced from it for so long in such a way. But there's so much to disentangle from her experiences that she's had the last 20 years, you know, and for me, I had to get there too. And so I think that process is going to help me really, as a writer and as a producer, deconstruct Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. You know, you hear me start to do it in the book. And I did that based on things that I'd heard from Dre and from Casey and from you and from Margi, you know, just from. This is my anti Mormon community, you know, but the wonderful people that DM me and email me and, you know, resonate with the story. Like now I want to get to the historical integrity because I started taking catechism classes at the Greek Orthodox church down the street and they talked about historical integrity of the scriptures, first written in Greek and written by four or five witnesses. And he just said, you know, the scriptures didn't just fall out of the sky. We have historical integrity. And I just. Something clicked in my brain, and I thought, but they did fall out of the sky. They fell right out of the sky, and they were buried in a mountain. And we're going to return to Jackson County, Missouri, and how can this be so absurd to you? But hearing the parallels that, like, Joseph Smith really did pirate just biblical Christianity and add some thrills around it for him and the girls in the barn. And that is where the process started. But that was just weeks ago. So I think the deconstructing of my testimony, the intellectual departure is gonna happen through the art that we're creating and the stories we're going to be telling that way.

Dre [01:32:23] I love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:24] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:32:24] You'll bring us back on for Mormon stories to tout our miniseries, right?

John Dehlin [01:32:27] Anytime. Absolutely.

Heather Gay [01:32:29] We'll book it now. We'll probably be in demand.

John Dehlin [01:32:31] Yeah. So this may be the interview where you talk about Real Housewives the least. But the. But, like, I was finishing your book this morning. I had such a lightning bolt moment, and let me try and explain it to you. I mentioned you before that, like, of course, you know, there's a stigma to Real Housewives. There's probably some trope that in some ways it's like the least real thing, that it's reality tv, that it's scripted or whatever, that it's maybe some would say vapid or superficial. Whatever. I. I loved how you ended your book talking about what the Real Housewives community slash fan base slash your friends have meant to you. But what was so powerful is you contrasted that with your Mormon life before. And so I guess I want to end this part, and then we'll talk really quickly. We'll have. We'll talk a little bit about some legal intrigue. But I. I wanted to end this part asking you to. To muse about what real means to you. Now, real in ways where the church kind of failed you, realness in ways that the Church failed you. But realness in terms of what you've discovered, you know, the Mormonism will teach you that wickedness never was happiness. A Mormon would look at Real Housewives and say, that's pure, pure wickedness. But, like, what have you learned about what real means and what his Real Housewives given you in that context?

Real Housewives and Performing a New Reality

Heather Gay [01:34:05] Well, I think that in the book, you really get the context that I was living a performative reality for so long, and a performative reality in terms of this is how I want my life to be as a Mormon. So I'm gonna pretend it's this way And I'm gonna pretend that my husband loves me and dotes on me, and I'm gonna pretend that I love him and dote on him. And that was more performative reality than I've ever had to do on television. So it was this magical transformation of the reality television, forcing me to be authentic and real. And then one. Once I got on tv, I knew that nothing, you know, the cameras can't really tell a lie. You know, they reveal everything. And it was the community that emerged. And it wasn't just Housewives fans, although they were huge. I mean, the visibility of Housewives was so far reaching, but it was really the people that identified across all faiths, all ethnicities, all regions of the world, saying, you know, I was a devout Catholic. I forewent the loves of my life because they had opposite faiths. You know, I sacrificed and worked in this convent for 40 years. And it's a life unlived, and I resonate with you. And it was people from all over saying, I feel seen, I feel represented, and thank you. And that community is the community that I want to clap my hands with joy to be a part of the others. You know, we're doing this documentary on the bad Mormon behind the scenes tour, Dre and I, and we are calling it no Empty Chairs. Because we were so. We were just terrified by this concept of empty chairs around the table with God if we didn't follow all the rules to be with our family. And our parents would say to us, we don't want any empty chairs. So read your scriptures, don't drink, don't smoke, don't, you know, do it all, or there's gonna be an empty chair at our table. But guess what? That implies that everyone else is there and you're the one missing. But no empty chairs for the ex Mormons, for the bad Mormons, for the bad Catholics, for the bad. Anyone that has felt like they belong to a group that they weren't accepted in and their authentic self caused pain to the people they loved most. Those are the community. Now that we say, you know, this is the community, that we are filling the venues for the this. How do I say it?

John Dehlin [01:36:26] Book tour. No.

Heather Gay [01:36:27] Well, yeah, for the book tour, we're selling out. There are literally no empty chairs because every seat is filled by this community of others, by this community of people that have been rejected by their faith, rejected by their families, rejected by their communities, and have never been given visibility. But Housewives, reality tv, trash tv, whatever it is, is far reaching, and it's visible And I'm on it. And so by me talking and representing for all of the others, it's literally no empty chairs because we're selling out every venue and we are making sure that everyone's included. And that's kind of the full circle moment for me.

Finding Joy After Years of Struggle

John Dehlin [01:37:07] And what about your. So you obviously struggled to find joy and happiness in all the stages that you talk about where you fail, failed in your childhood, failed in your mission, failed as a wife. And there's even a part in the book where you're starting to get into reality TV where someone asks you if you're happy or whatever and don't you say something like a 001?

Heather Gay [01:37:29] Yeah, I'm still not happy. John, happiness is an elusive concept, but

John Dehlin [01:37:34] now that you are kind of breaking free and finding your authentic real self.

Heather Gay [01:37:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] Are you starting to find some of that happiness or joy?

Heather Gay [01:37:44] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:37:45] So describe how wickedness can be happiness for you.

Heather Gay [01:37:48] Well, wickedness has been absolute happiness for me. And true happiness is honoring your authentic self. I feel like I'm honoring that 10 year old girl that woke up one morning and realized who she was, was not gonna work and she'd have to change in order to be liked, in order to be loved, in order to be accepted and in order to belong, you know, And I did, I. I died all those deaths. But I was never really accepted because I never accepted myself. I kept trying to, you know, cut off the rough edges, but now I'm happy because I can own my story and my experience and I can respect it. And that like publishing this book, there's gonna be fallout. There's gonna be massive, massive fallout from revealing these secrets that I was told never to repeat to.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] You've described the temple ceremony in detail.

Heather Gay [01:38:44] I mean, I talk about my experience firsthand and it's obviously causing a lot of uproar and problems because I am now being sued by the church. And that's why I have my best friend and leal representation here in case I say anything that could possibly

Margi Dehlin [01:39:05] put

Heather Gay [01:39:05] me into any further deep water with the church. But yeah, once I set out to trademark all of the stuff for Bad Mormon, and the book's been getting a lot of buzz, you know, New York Times came out, spent the day with me, did a full photo spread.

John Dehlin [01:39:21] Have they published the article yet?

Heather Gay [01:39:22] No, they're publishing. It'll come out the print article on the 5th and then it'll be published by the time this airs.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:28] Wow.

Heather Gay [01:39:28] So that was huge. Yeah. And like all the TV shows are featuring me. I'm the Number one book right now in religious leaders biographies. So I'm a religious leader on Amazon, but we've been in the top 100 since it got released. That's all pre sales. That's all pre orders. So I want to say thank you to the ex Mormon Reddit and to the Mormon stories community, because their priest orders have made all the difference. You know, and ordering and buying this book is giving visibility not just to my story, but to all of our stories. And so much so that the church is suing us. And Casey, am I gonna be in Pauper's prison?

John Dehlin [01:40:10] And Dre, you look different.

Heather Gay [01:40:12] Dre, you're so handsome.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] Okay, so, Heather, or do you want to introduce yourself?

Dre [01:40:17] Yeah, well, I just want to say thank you for calling me your best friend first and then lawyer. That's the way I feel about it. That was the best friend.

Heather Gay [01:40:24] That's how I feel about our relationship, too.

Dre [01:40:26] And grateful to be able to do your legal work as well. And how long ago was it? About six, seven years ago when you first called me about a trademark dispute.

Heather Gay [01:40:36] We were two moms getting harangued by all of the male plastic surgeons in town. Every doctor's office was calling us, harassing us, sending Division of Professional Licenses. They're trying to get us shut down because we were two moms trying to start a business, and they were infringing on our trademark. We had invented the Mini Lip Plump, and they were all trying to use it and to appropriate it as their own. So we recommended Casey as an attorney. And when we called him, we heard his voice. It was just on a speaker phone. I thought he was, like, 45, with, like, a pipe and, like, a cravat, because he speaks with such a. You know, he just has this austere, reverent tone. And we explained to him our situation, and we had been rebuffed by most people, just like. So you made up a cute little name, Mini Lip Plump. And other doctors are using it. This is the business. It's a saturated market. Give up your hopes, you know? But we felt strongly that we needed an advocate. And you know how we've always heard, the Savior will be our advocate at the God's tribunal. And Casey really stepped in. We had this call with him, we presented our case, and I, of course, started crying.

Dre [01:41:47] You're very passionate about your trademarks.

Heather Gay [01:41:49] And he responded and said, yeah, this isn't right. He's like, you guys, this is your business. You're two moms that have other distractions, and these guys shouldn't be bullying you. They shouldn't be doing this, and I will absolutely help you out and I'm here for you. And he advocated for us and he legally fought those trademarks. And that's been the one defining factor in our business, is that we have owned all of our trademarks because he has protected us so well, and it made us be the biggest disruptor of the med spa industry scene in Salt Lake in the last 10 years. And he's had to not only file trademarks internationally, but, you know, fight a lot of disputes to protect us. And he's absolutely become one of my greatest advocates, friends, and protector. He does my housewife contracts. He is. He could be a talent agent if he wanted to. But everyone that meets him is like, I love your attorney. He's kind, he's smart, he's honest. And then I always add, and he never loses. He has a perfect record. So perfection is attainable if you're Casey Jones.

Dre [01:42:57] Well, thank you. That's very kind. But I'm also honored to be your lawyer. And I've watched Heather's Journey and I'm happy to be here today. And I'm so happy for you and the book that you've written, how far you've come in your journey.

Legal Disputes Surrounding the Bad Mormon Title

John Dehlin [01:43:11] So tell us how the Mormon Church, legal disputes, and Bad Mormon are all converging. We're dying to hear. Inquiring minds want to know what's going on.

Dre [01:43:21] Do you want me to.

Heather Gay [01:43:22] I want you to take this.

Dre [01:43:24] When Heather decided she wanted to write a book, we filed for a trademark, the Bad Mormon trademark with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. We filed it for a podcast for merch clothing, and it sailed through the USPTO's office. It was approved for publication. The USPTO did not find any issues with the application because the USPTO has examining attorneys. When you file a trademark that will review the. The current trademark registrations, make sure there's no. They call it a likelihood of confusion. That's not. Not identical to another trademark that's already filed. And so we passed that process and it was published for opposition. Third parties have 30 days to oppose a trademark registration. And I was not expecting any. Any opposition, but the Mormon Church, which goes by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by that name,

John Dehlin [01:44:31] who has also condemned the usage of the term Mormon.

Heather Gay [01:44:34] If you use the word Mormon, it's a victory for Satan unless you. But they still want to be the only ones to make money off the word Mormon.

Dre [01:44:41] So the church, Mormon Church filed an opposition to Block the Bad Mormon trademark, claiming a likelihood of confusion with a Mormon name.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] I mean, you, Russell M. Nelson, I see those similarities.

Heather Gay [01:44:55] Well, I mean, I feel like if they want to put me on the general board, go for it.

Dre [01:45:02] And that was our response. The Mormon Church doesn't even want to

Margi Dehlin [01:45:06] be

Dre [01:45:08] known as the Mormons. They want to be called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And Bad Mormon is a pretty clear parody of the Mormon Church and their response to that as well. We, we, we invite good Mormons and bad Mormons to, to our church. And so that's, that's why people might get confused by the name. It's a pretty big stretch. So that's where we're at right now.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] And I don't know if you want to talk about this, but does, does the Book of Mormon as a text and historicity and fiction versus truth, does any of that play into your legal machinations, or do you. No comment.

Dre [01:45:50] It is interesting the way the complaint is worded with respect to whether it's a historical or fictional book. Of course, the church takes the position that it's a historical book and it's named after a historical prophet, but I don't know if we'll get into that dispute in this litigation.

Heather Gay [01:46:13] But I think it does back the classic. You know, I'm trying to write a lot of books. We're doing a Bad Mormon cookbook. We're doing Bad Missionary position about the mission. I'm gonna get really into the divorce in my next book. Like, this isn't the first Bad Mormon book I'm gonna write. This is the crumb coat, and I'm gonna have a patisserie just like the ones on my mission in France. So I need to own this name and trademark this name. And I know the importance of that. So we're gonna fight. And do you think how, like, does the church intend to just fight this to the end?

Dre [01:46:44] They've made it very clear that they do not want Heather to get the trademark Bad Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:46:49] So they're afraid. Yeah, they're afraid of you.

Heather Gay [01:46:53] So how do we. What's the most important thing for us to do? Buy the book. Should everyone buy the book? If you want to really stick it

Dre [01:46:58] to the church, pre order.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] Yeah. Okay. All right, well, Casey, thanks. Thanks so much for fighting. I, I, I can't see any reason why the church should object to this name being used, other than they don't want to face the PR of your success. Because, like, I think I read in the book, you're not, you're still a member of record or did you resign the paper?

Heather Gay [01:47:23] We've already filed the paperwork, but it hasn't come back yet.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] Because I was going to ask you whether you feared excommunication, but you're the

Heather Gay [01:47:29] one that told me they don't excommunicate

John Dehlin [01:47:31] famous people don't excommunicate famous people because they don't want to face the PR wrath of having done it.

Heather Gay [01:47:36] So there's a theme about this book and about the trademark and about the trajectory. I think that's happening right now with this because we're also doing the Bad Mormon documentary and really giving visibility to, you know, this community that has been rejected and silenced. Absolutely silenced. So Casey's gonna be our advocate. He's been our attorney through beauty lab and laser and really fought for us. He's gonna be our advocate for the book. And, you know, I'm not going anywhere. And I just found my voice and just respected my story. Now I've got a thousand variations to tell, so I think that it will hopefully be a topic of conversation for a lot of people to kind of shine light on the fact that there's an institution, you know, persecuting, like something that's clearly not confusing to a good Mormon. If you're a good Mormon, don't. Don't buy this book.

Dre [01:48:27] That's ultimately what it'll come down to. The case. Will people actually think that Bad Mormon was produced by the Mormon Church? Is there any connection?

Heather Gay [01:48:39] Well, the connection. It contains only facts. Did you guys read one thing in the book that was not absolutely factual about the church? Yeah, I mean, it's no. 100% true. You know, there's zero lies.

Dre [01:48:52] We're confident that we'll prevent. We may have to get expert opinions to get surveys and ask people if they see any association between her book and the Mormon religion.

How to Support the Book and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:49:04] So as far as our audience goes, other than buying the book, is there anything. We have a pretty awesome audience, so is there anything our legions can do to help or just buy the book?

Heather Gay [01:49:13] I just want to say thank you. They've already done enough just by the support they've shown me. It really was the turning point in so many ways. That's why the book ended that way. And that community. I know it reads like it's housewife fans, but it's really just visibility, you know, And I think people find that on the ex Mormon Reddit. I think people find it in the Mormon stories. Comments. I think. I don't know if you just delete all the hateful ones to keep it positive. But that's the only social media I look at because it's my people, and I trust and love them now, and I want to celebrate my life with them and mourn with them and, you know, comfort them in times of comfort. And all the things that I pledge to do as a good Mormon, I want to do that now with my bad Mormon peeps.

John Dehlin [01:49:56] That's a beautiful part of the book. I have a couple questions just to end, but, Margi, is there anything about the book you want to ask or say before we do? A couple closing questions, maybe?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:10] I'll wait to see what those questions are to see if. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] So how many of the most successful Real Housewives, you know, franchise that there is? I don't know which one. Which one is that?

Heather Gay [01:50:22] I think right now it's probably Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [01:50:24] I don't know, in terms of, like, number of seasons.

Heather Gay [01:50:27] Oh, probably OC was the original, and they are starting season 15, I believe.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] So you guys could go more than a dozen seasons, potentially. That was gonna be.

Heather Gay [01:50:35] Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of them are, like, in their 8th or 9th, 10th.

John Dehlin [01:50:39] Okay. And is there. Did you say a fourth has been purchased?

Heather Gay [01:50:43] A fourth is. A fourth is rumored to begin. I mean, I think fourth has been announced, but not the full cast yet, and that should be filming in the next few weeks.

John Dehlin [01:50:51] Okay. And you said you're down to four

Heather Gay [01:50:52] cast members right now? We are, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:54] Okay. And so could there be new cast?

Heather Gay [01:50:57] Yeah, they have to. I mean, you can't. You can't fight enough with four. You know, it's not a real melee unless there's six or seven.

John Dehlin [01:51:05] Angie Harrington. Is that her name?

Heather Gay [01:51:06] Angie Harrington? Yes, she was. She's been a friend of. And I don't know if she'll continue to. I mean, she's. You should get her. Her on Mormon stories. She's a hoot.

John Dehlin [01:51:14] Angie, you're welcome.

Heather Gay [01:51:15] Also, I love her.

John Dehlin [01:51:17] I. I don't know if you know this. I grew up with Justin Rose.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:19] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:51:20] I've mentioned to them several times.

John Dehlin [01:51:22] Yeah, well, maybe they're. It's. This isn't their thing, but it'd be fun to interview Justin and. Or Whitney and have them tell their story.

Heather Gay [01:51:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:28] But, well, if we. If Heather Gay is what we get.

Heather Gay [01:51:31] If I'm your only Mormon stories. Housewives.

John Dehlin [01:51:33] Okay. All right. Well, um, I guess that's the main. The main question I had. Besides help having you plug everything that you want to plug. I mean, I wanted to have, like, a bad Mormon shirt. And a bad Mormon hat.

Heather Gay [01:51:48] So, like, listen, we do have merch. It could be seized by the feds because of the trademark infringement. But, yeah, we have merch. Bad Mormon Merchant. I was actually wearing it. I was in Toronto and I was wearing my sweats. You know, they're these comfy Sunday sweats that we're selling to all the bad Mormons out there.

John Dehlin [01:52:05] Do you own badmormon.com?

Heather Gay [01:52:07] do we? Casey, do we own it yet?

John Dehlin [01:52:09] Oh, my goodness. I better go grab it before we air this. I'm glad we're not airing it.

Heather Gay [01:52:14] I know we've registered it. I don't know if it's official.

John Dehlin [01:52:17] Okay, but where would people buy your merch?

Heather Gay [01:52:20] Oh, they can go to beauty lab, right? Where do they buy the Bad Mormon Merchant? Oh, it's gonna be linked through my Instagram. You can go to my Instagram to buy the merch.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] What's your Instagram?

Heather Gay [01:52:32] Heathergay.

John Dehlin [01:52:33] Okay.

Heather Gay [01:52:33] Just heathergay. And we'll have it available online, too, because we're not going anywhere. But I was wearing this sweatshirt, and I was in security line in Calgary, Canada, and this woman said to me, this little lady, nice lady, said, what does your sweatshirt say? And I said, oh, it says bad Mormon. And she goes, oh, well, I'm a good one, and I bet you are too. And she just spontaneously hugged me. And. And, you know, at first I laughed, and then I cried. You know, it's just so conflicted. And then I get. I arrive. That was in Toronto. Then I arrive in Calgary, and I'm going through customs, and the guy asked me why I'm there, and he sees my sweatshirt. And I said, well, I'm an author. I wrote a book. And he said, did you bring any alcohol or tobacco into the country or whatever? And he said, you know, bad Mormons. And he said, is your book uplifting? And I said, you know, I don't know. For me, it was uplifting to write. I loved being a Mormon for a long time. And he's like, but not anymore. And I said, not anymore. And he sent me through, stamped my passport, and then handed it to me and said, this is in Canada, in Calgary. He said, my brother's a bishop in Ogden. And I just thought, are you a bad Mormon or a good Mormon? I have to know. Identify yourself. But I just. I don't want to. I just walked. I just laughed because you can never escape it. And that's the community that I love. I love that when those people say to me, hey, I'm a good One. But, you know, go with God.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] The truth is, all Mormons are bad Mormons.

Heather Gay [01:54:03] Read the book and you'll see.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] Yeah, right. Yeah. Even the best Mormons are bad Mormons. And that's the beauty, the liberating element of your book is that it's about self acceptance. It's about unconditional love. It's about authenticity and vulnerability, and I hope women know.

Heather Gay [01:54:20] It's about second chances and honoring. Honoring the choices and the sacrifices we made and not blaming ourselves for them and not feeling ashamed. It's about, you know, it's about being rejected, but then finding your voice and never giving up. You know, I have a few good years left, and if it's not too late for me, it's not too late for anyone. So I hope a lot of women, Mormon women read this book and feel seen.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:45] I can absolutely envision that.

John Dehlin [01:54:47] Did you feel seen when you read it?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:48] Margi, I related a lot to this, to your book, and to your story, 100%. So I did have a question, just in closing. You know, you mentioned earlier what it meant for you to be able to be on Mormon Stories and to speak your story. I'm curious what it's meant for you, you know, to write it, to have to. There's a lot that you revisit it about your life. Tender moments, beautiful moments, hopes you had. And I think on a level, what I hear from you is how much you value what's true. But there's some innocence, right, that we lose as we kind of move toward reality, like what is true. So what was it like for you to actually relive some of these things and to write it down and now to be, like, releasing. It's like a baby a little bit to the world. What would you say about that?

Heather Gay [01:55:50] It feels. I'm so proud of it. It feels real. It feels credible. It feels like what I was born to do. It feels like I want to shout it from the rooftops. I want everyone in my life who has ever heard of me or loves me or anyone, as a family member, knows my family to read it. My greatest fear used to be that my family would read it, and now my greatest fear is that they won't. Because I don't want anyone to think it came from a poisoned well, you know, so therefore, it's not good. I'm a writer, and because I went on this show, it gave me the opportunity to write. And it is the first time I've ever been able to, like, express who I am and have. And hold it in my hand and I'm afraid for the fallout, but I'm deeply, deeply proud. It feels like a creation, you know, my children and then this book.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:41] Yes.

Heather Gay [01:56:42] My business and this book. Sorry, you've created quite very much that way, too. Creating something, you know, that was real and is going to, you know, give me a legacy I can be proud of.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:56] Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, can I just say it's been an absolute gift to be immersed and live a little bit of your story. We celebrate you and honor you.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:57:10] Thank you so, so much.

John Dehlin [01:57:12] Yeah. The book is Bad Mormon by Simon and Schuster, a memoir by Heather Gay. Please buy copies. Buy it for friends, buy it for family members, buy it for loved ones, buy it for non Mormon Mormons. Let's sell this book the F out all over the world. First of all, that's Bad Mormon. Casey's applauding. So that's the book.

Heather Gay [01:57:35] The Instagram is eathergay. And we're having a big book party on February 11th. Like it's the. We can't call it happy hour because we live in Utah, but it's just a huge meet and greet, an evening with Heather Gay. I'm going to read a few things. Things. We're going to have merch. It's going to be the, like a thrive event, hopefully. So we want all the thrive to come and come to the Bad Mormon book party. And let's celebrate our communal visibility together because we exist, we are here, and we're not going anywhere.

John Dehlin [01:58:06] And for those who need some lip enhancement or some, maybe some cosmetics, a

Heather Gay [01:58:14] Mini Lip Plump trademark. I'm really enjoying.

John Dehlin [01:58:17] I don't know what they call it.

Heather Gay [01:58:18] It's called the mini lip club or a cheekbone pop or thigh. Bella Banana.

Dre [01:58:22] Bella.

Heather Gay [01:58:22] Oh, shot. We have a myriad of trademarked out faced services, Beauty lab and laser. And we have two locations in Murray, in Murray on 9th east and in Riverton. And we're very, very proud of our business. That's been the vehicle to get us on Housewives and to get this book written. And it's really the source of our greatest fulfillment, I think.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] And Real Housewives of Salt Lake can be found.

Heather Gay [01:58:48] It's on Bravo tv. You can watch it if you're so inclined. But I'll be your favorite. I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [01:58:55] You are the official fan favorite.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:56] At least that's true.

Heather Gay [01:58:57] You know, it comes and goes. No one gets through unscathed. But, you know, Salt Lake City's my town, so I should be, you know, I feel very comfortable here.

John Dehlin [01:59:07] Heather, you are not just fun, not just. Just entertaining. You are wise and caring and loving and deep and courageous and real. And I am just honored to know you. Dre, you've. You're off camera. I'm honored to know you. You are special friends to me. Even though you're too busy to hang out. I don't.

Heather Gay [01:59:33] We've done brunch.

John Dehlin [01:59:35] We have done brunch. I hold.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:37] You're a little.

Heather Gay [01:59:38] Just a little.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] But I adore you, too. And we are just cheer. We got you.

Heather Gay [01:59:45] I know.

John Dehlin [01:59:45] I feel much as we can have you. And we're going to be cheering you on.

Heather Gay [01:59:49] Thank you. This is the most important interview I've done. And I'm so grateful to be back.

John Dehlin [01:59:53] Yeah. And. And come back again.

Heather Gay [01:59:56] I will.

Dre [01:59:57] I will.

Heather Gay [01:59:57] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:59:58] Thanks, Heather. Please buy the book. Bad Mormon. Thanks, Casey.

Dre [02:00:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:00:02] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:00:02] Here, Casey, hold the book.

John Dehlin [02:00:03] Book.

Heather Gay [02:00:04] Thank you.

Dre [02:00:05] Buy the book.

John Dehlin [02:00:06] All right. All right. Margi, thanks for. Thanks for joining us, Margi. We love you.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:10] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:00:11] Thanks. Thanks again. And thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Go to MormonStories.org if you want to support what we do become a monthly donor. But don't worry about that. Support Heather Gay. Buy this book and let's spread the word, because this book will probably touch more hearts and minds than Mormon Stories ever could. So support it.

Dre [02:00:29] It.

John Dehlin [02:00:29] Love you, Heather.

Heather Gay [02:00:30] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:00:32] And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.