Introducing Shelise Sola and Her Journey

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 12, 2024 and today we are super excited to have back in studio someone we've wanted to interview for quite some time. We have a world renowned cult expert, Shalice Sola. Hey, Chalice.

Shelise Sola [00:00:20] Wow, John, thank you so much. It's so great to be here back in Mormon Story Studios. Yeah, it's so much fun. I feel honored to get a full interview with you. It's gonna be great.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Absolutely. It's been time coming. And for those of you who don't know, for the three of you who don't know, Shalice runs a podcast called Cults to Consciousness. It's taken over the cult awareness Internet by storm, growing in leaps of bounds. And check out that podcast YouTube channel if you haven't already.

Shelise Sola [00:00:49] Thank you. Yeah, it's been amazing to see growth.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] We knew you when. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:00:54] It's funny because the first time we recorded was December. December of last year or the year before. I think it's been a while.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:01:01] And we had like 5,000 subs. And you're like, you're a big advocate, which we really appreciated. And it's just amazing how much people need this space. You know, with the ex Mormon space, it's just so important to give people a voice and to platform their stories and spread awareness. And ultimately the goal is to get people out of these cults, get them deprogrammed. I don't know if that's offensive.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] To get them in, keep them from getting in new ones.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:24] Right.

Shelise Sola [00:01:24] That's the thing. Yeah. And just find peace. That's really the goal, is finding peace and love and joy in the world.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Yeah. Well, today we're fortunate to have Shalice tell her story, so we're thrilled to have her here. And always I'm delighted to have my colleague, my partner on the podcast, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:46] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Thanks for being here.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:47] Yeah, glad to have you. I'm really excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Yeah. So, Shalice, normally we start with an intention, which is kind of you letting people know. Sometimes family or extended family or friends will be like, why is she coming on the podcast? And you're obviously a public figure, but do you want to maybe give the audience a preview of some of the main themes and maybe just kind of talk about what your intention is for today?

Shelise Sola [00:02:14] Yeah, that's a great idea. I love that, John. I think, I mean, if my friends and family have seen my channel, they know that we talk about this stuff. All the time. And my intention is just to really raise awareness about some of the more hidden things that go on in someone's life. Growing up in the church, it doesn't have to be this huge moment or thing that happens that can affect them later on in life.

Shelise Sola [00:02:40] Oftentimes it's a culmination of the small things that just add up and add up and add up and eventually form our personalities or form our habits or the way we treat other people. And so I'm just gonna be sharing some stories today that ultimately ended up impacting who I am. As far as purity culture goes. Worthiness is a huge body shaming, sexual distortion. Things of that nature that I think are really important, especially as we come into adulthood and especially now that I'm a soon to be mom.

Shelise Sola [00:03:11] Guys, if I'm out of breath, it's cause I'm 36 and a half weeks pregnant. I know, like, so exciting, our first baby. But yeah, I think it's also very relevant as it pertains to becoming a parent and understanding how I want to raise my child in a loving, safe space without body shame and without unnecessary shame. Because of course you can't avoid all shame. It has a place, but not where it shouldn't be. So that's kind of my goal is just to speak on those little things and maybe give voice to others who think that their experiences weren't, quote, traumatic enough to affect them. Because again, it's the little things that tend to add up.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:51] Yeah, it's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] And do most of your viewers and listeners know you were raised Mormon? Is that pretty obvious to your viewers and listeners?

Shelise Sola [00:03:58] Yeah, I tend to bring in my own experiences so I can relate to our guests and help them feel not so alone. I think that's a great thing about what you do as well is you can bring in your lived experience and it feels more of a connection instead of like, tell me your trauma and entertain us with our, with your stories. You know, a lot of guests have mentioned that they feel very loved and supported and they feel the empathy because I do have that background and I can relate to the things instead of like, you're so dumb, why would you ever join a cult? You know, it's so hard to talk about your stories, but when you can talk to someone who's been through it, it's a little easier.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:36] Got it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] Well, let's do it. Let's jump in. So where does your Mormon story begin?

Mormon Pioneer Ancestry and Family Background

Shelise Sola [00:04:43] I always have to laugh and tell this little story because it makes me kind of Mormon royalty. My ancestors were super Mormon from the beginning. And when I say the beginning, my family likes to tell a story that my great, great. I don't know how many greats I should know by now. Grandma was the first woman baptized in England by Heber C. Kimball. And yeah, they came over, so I got all of the Scandinavian blood, the European, the Scottish, Norwegian, German ancestry. And so we really go all the way back and I think it's on both sides too. On my dad's side as well.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] For those who don't know, Heber C. Kimball was so close to Joseph Smith that when Joseph Smith was killed, some of apparently Joseph S.M. smith's wives were reassigned to Heber.

Shelise Sola [00:05:33] Oh my gosh, I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] I mean, didn't Eliza R. Snow end up Heber C. Kimball's wife?

Shelise Sola [00:05:39] Like, I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Yeah, so I mean, this whole Warren Jeffs FLDS wife reassignment thing has its origins in how polygamy was practiced, even going back as far as Joseph Smith. So that's one distinction. Also Heber C. Kimball is, is the guy who offered his daughter, his 14 year old daughter to Joseph Smith.

Shelise Sola [00:06:04] Helen Mar.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Helen Mar Kimball.

Shelise Sola [00:06:06] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] I think, I think that's, I think so. So, I mean another, that's another distinction is he believed in Joseph so much he was willing to give his 14 year old daughter in marriage to Joseph Smith. Wow, that's your. So that's your blood ancestry.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:22] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:06:23] So I'm just like the black sheep breaking the chain guys. So ashamed to. It's great. I'm happy to. So, yeah, long line of Mormonism. Everyone was very devout and followed all the rules and had all the callings. I grew up in Utah, in Tremont. I don't know if you know where that is. Most people do, of course.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Yeah. So that's near Brigham City, which is about an hour north of Salt lake and like 30 minutes west of Logan.

Shelise Sola [00:06:52] Yeah, Cache Valley, just right over the hill. So small little town. She's population like 3,000. I don't know, it's probably different now, but very insulated, very isolated. I would tell people it's just cows and cornfields out there in Mormons.

Shelise Sola [00:07:08] So yeah, I mean that's basically where I grew up and most of my childhood was lived in Lehigh for like a hot second, but mostly in Tree Mountain. And I don't know, it seemed like a pretty normal Mormon life. Everyone followed the rules or they kind of slipped a little on the rules because everyone's Mormon. You don't really have to be an example, you know, in places where there's not a lot of Mormons. We'll get to that story in a minute. When I moved out of Utah, and then it's like, you have to follow the rules exactly. So it was like a general understanding that we all kind of do what's right.

Shelise Sola [00:07:42] But if you wear a tank top every now and then, it's not the worst thing in the world. And, I mean, from an overall bird's eye view, it was a very normal Mormon upbringing. And so once you get into the nitty gritty and the standout moments, those are the things that I think really impacted me. Like I mentioned earlier, so a lot of the stuff with the purity culture and with. I remember the first time I heard about polygamy in heaven, I was not happy about it, John.

Shelise Sola [00:08:11] The first time I remember it was in a Sunday school lesson, and they just brought it up. One day of. It was like, very. It was an aside, and I was the one that raised my hand, was like, I'm sorry, I have to be a polygamist wife in heaven. And they're like, yeah, but it's fine. It'll all work itself out. And I think that was one of the first moments for me where I was like, I don't know about this Mormonism thing.

Shelise Sola [00:08:34] I'm not sharing my husband. And that was at, what, like 11 years old or something? 12 years old. Because I'm being conditioned to be a wife and a mom and thinking about my future husband. It was probably the same lesson that we wrote down what we wanted in our temple Marriage partner, where we write a list.

Shelise Sola [00:08:53] And so I'm thinking, if I'm gonna figure out who my partner's gonna be for eternity, I don't wanna share them. So that was a really big deal.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] Where did you fall, like, birth order with siblings?

Shelise Sola [00:09:05] I'm the baby of the family, so two older brothers in the household and a half sister who was raised in Chicago. So, yeah, I'm the baby.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] And your parents, did they. Where did they meet? Were they raised. They were both raised Mormon.

Shelise Sola [00:09:20] Yeah. So both of my parents were raised very Mormon. Dad served a mission. He did end up getting sent home because of some sexual sin, I guess you could say that happened there. But when he met my mom, he was like, okay, I'm gonna get back in the church. Got re. Baptized the whole time.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] So he had been excommunicated?

Shelise Sola [00:09:40] As far as I'm aware, yes, as far as I'm aware. And so my mom had My brothers separately from a different marriage. And then she got a divorce. She got. She did the whole like 19 marriage thing. Married at 19 kids right away. And so she. She met my dad three months later, they got married. I think they did the whole wait a year thing, get married in the temple. And she got pregnant with me three months after they got married. And so she says that I. I didn't actually know this until I asked her yesterday. She's like, yeah, you went through the temple and got sealed with us. And I was like, oh, I didn't know. That was my first time in the temple. I was like a little one year old kind of walking on the altar, just messing around, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] So it was a blended family. Yeah, from pre. Your parents were married previously, is that right? Okay, yeah, yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:10:30] But it's just the three of us siblings in the house.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:33] What was your family culture like? Like, was it quite merged with Mormonism or did it kind of do. Did they do their own thing? How would you describe it?

Shelise Sola [00:10:42] We were very much integrated in to Mormonism. So my mom always had a high calling. She. She was part of the young women's. She. She was. She had leadership positions often and a lot of responsibilities. And she, she was kind of like a cool Mormon mom where she wasn't ever shaming me for things. She would let me take the lead like, are you sure you want to wear that? Or maybe we should find something with sleeves. But she was never like, you can't wear that. That's, you know. So I feel really grateful to her to have allowed me to express myself within some sort of boundary.

Shelise Sola [00:11:25] And she always wanted us to go to church. It never felt forced, but it was. She liked doing the guilt thing a little bit. Like, I would really love it if you would come to church with me. And we all loved mom, so we're like, okay, Mom. My brothers kind of went along with it. I don't think they were ever really invested in Mormonism, but I was. I was the child that was like, I'm a grade A Mormon and I will follow the rules. I will make it to the highest level. The highest levels. The highest level.

Shelise Sola [00:11:54] How many levels I'm going to be at the top. And I think that's also part of my mom's personality that I got was the type A. We make lists, we have binders, we have highlighters and all of that. And so when I learned the rules, I was like, I can follow those rules easy. Got this. No big deal.

Growing Up Under Strict LDS Household Rules

John Dehlin [00:12:11] So what were the family rules that were that would be maybe a little bit more severe than a normal non LDS upbringing that y' all followed.

Shelise Sola [00:12:21] Yeah. So we always did family prayer and we made it a fun thing. So that was, you know, I'm trying to think of the rules that were upsetting. There really weren't many.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] Caffeine. Was there a caffeine thing?

Shelise Sola [00:12:33] So I only found out recently, a few years ago, that caffeine was an actual rule. I didn't think it was a rule because we had caffeine in the house. We had just regular pop in the fridge.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] But not coffee, tea.

Shelise Sola [00:12:45] Not coffee or tea. No. But I remember asking my mom was like, yeah, I mean, it's not a real rule. And she's like, oh, no, it was a rule. We just didn't do it. I was like, what mom? I didn't know that because she was so by the book. And she will even say, I'm a rule follower and I do things by the book. So that was kind of one of those funny things that I always thought people were just being extra when they were following the no soda rule.

Shelise Sola [00:13:10] Yeah. So we did family prayer. We would like yell it from the house. Family prayer. And the last person to get to the ottoman would have to say it. So it was a fun little thing. We tried to do family home evening, but we were all involved in extracurricular. So I was doing drill team and competition dance. My brothers were doing every single sport. So it was really hard to do the family home evening. But definitely church on Sundays. Definitely mutual for me. I went. And that's where I think a lot of the standout lessons were once I got to the age of maturity, according to Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] So if someone had asked you how happy you were in your childhood by the time you were 12, you would have said happy, normal, happy upbringing kind of thing?

Shelise Sola [00:13:54] Yeah, I would say so.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:56] I would ask you too, just as a girl growing up, what do you remember, like, loving? You mentioned kind of dance, like when you think of yourself or can picture like young you. What do you remember about yourself? Like, were you extroverted? Did you love people? Were you a pleaser? Did you like all those kind of things?

Shelise Sola [00:14:15] Yeah, that's a good question. I was definitely very, very quiet. I barely spoke. So when people would talk to me, if I did speak, it was really quiet and I was just kind of shy. I didn't like affection. I didn't like people touching me, even my parents. I was just like, stay away, keep your distance.

Shelise Sola [00:14:36] Dance was my way of self expression. So because I didn't really speak or I didn't really feel like people would listen to me. As a kid, once I got on stage, it was like, okay, now it's my turn. Pay attention to me now.

Shelise Sola [00:14:50] And it was really this out of body experience where I felt like I could fully express myself and modesty didn't matter. We could wear the little ballerina dresses that were tank tops and we could kick our legs and we could just be in ourselves, be in our bodies. And that really meant a lot to me. And I think it was a huge part of my personality and something that shaped me and was my identity. I was a dancer, you know, since I was 3. My mom was like, okay, we need to put this girl in ballet. Because I just wanted that.

Shelise Sola [00:15:24] I don't know, I wanted to be seen. And that was the only way it felt like I could be seen because people had to stop and watch when was like, okay, I'm gonna perform now. And they had to stop and watch and pay attention. And so that was definitely a big part of my life.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:40] I love that. And I love it too. Cause it's on your own terms.

Shelise Sola [00:15:43] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:44] Yeah. If you're gonna be the focal point or if you're gonna be watched, then you get to decide how and when.

Shelise Sola [00:15:51] Yeah. And that's also when I decided I wanted to be an actress. I wanted to be on TV and I would watch Disney Channel and be like, mom, put me up there. I wanna be seen. I can do that. I was definitely a perform and a creative. I think besides acting, it was sewing. And I would try and make clothes for my Barbies out of paper. And then my mom's like, here's a sewing machine. I don't really know how to use it, but here you go.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] And we didn't mention this, but like, you live in la.

Shelise Sola [00:16:19] I do.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] You do costuming for like movie production stuff.

Shelise Sola [00:16:24] Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:24] To like the younger you? It is.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] So tell people what you do now just so that they can appreciate you. Doing sewing?

Shelise Sola [00:16:31] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:16:32] Before I became a podcaster. I mean, I still do it now, but costuming for TV and film and so I work on commercials. I've worked on major TV shows. I can make things from scratch. I went to school for fashion design, which that'll come up later. But yeah, I do that as a job and also acting. Just shot a commercial before I came here. So the screen thing and the sewing thing, it all kind of culminated into. Into reality.

Creative Pursuits: Dance, Acting, and the Arts

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Would people would. Do you even list like some of the movies or TV Shows you would have helped out with, just to give people a sense.

Shelise Sola [00:17:03] Yeah, sure. See, I always forget the names after I've done it. I'm like, oh, I forget Station 19. I did for a while, Raven's Home. I did for a season. My first TV show ever was Mutt and stuff. It was on Nick Jr. And that was an incredible job. Costuming, animals. It was preschool for dogs, and so the dogs would go on adventures. And if they went to the moon, I would make them astronaut suits. And for those who follow the channel, that's where I met Oscar Meyer Wiener, who was a character on the show, and he's now our do.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Oh, fun.

Shelise Sola [00:17:38] Yeah, yeah. So lots of different TV shows. I've worked with major celebrities, even doing personal tailoring, like for Robin Thicke ones. Bryan Cranston. I did some stuff for fun.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Fun.

Shelise Sola [00:17:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] There's so much talent.

Shelise Sola [00:17:53] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] Okay, so you sewed, you danced. Did you actually do acting in middle or high school theater?

Shelise Sola [00:18:02] Musical theater, anyway, I definitely did it when I was younger. And then when it came time to choose between dance and acting, I did D. Okay. Yeah. But I was definitely in all of the plays. I was Snow White in the school play once. That was my claim to fame. And it was the first time that I felt that real recognition of. I remember it was one of the nights of the play where they had two different casts. I think I was with the older group and the younger group was performing. And I walked by and someone was like, isn't that the Snow White? And I was like, that's me. They recognized me. It was just this feeling of recognition, I guess, that I really enjoyed as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:40] Can I ask, just a quick follow up to you talking about yourself as quieter or shyer when you were younger, More shy, would you say? And then you have this other side of you that's also, like, highly visible at the same time. Right when you kind of decide. So within your family system, did you feel seen? Was there an invisibility? Were you alone a lot? Like, how would you talk about that?

Shelise Sola [00:19:10] Yeah, that's a good question. I feel like if I wasn't seen, it wasn't because it was on purpose. My brothers are very loud and extroverted, and they're the comedians of the family, and they're making jokes and making everyone laugh. And I love that about them.

Shelise Sola [00:19:29] And I don't know if it was. I felt like no one would listen if I spoke up or if there was something deeper, which I think once we get to the end of my story, you'll probably see that there was something deeper of being silenced.

Shelise Sola [00:19:43] But I was very, very close with my mom. I still am. She's my best friend. We talk every day. And she definitely made it a point to be very involved with me and to pay attention to me and to also really just cultivate this personality of wanting to be seen. Because she wanted that for me. She wanted me to be extroverted and social and all of that. And so I really owe a lot to her too, to help. She was one who really helped bring that out of me. But I think you're right, Margi. It's on my own terms. So even now I would still consider myself an introvert.

Shelise Sola [00:20:20] My husband likes to say I'm an extroverted introvert. I think that's the one, Right, right, babe? Where when I'm one on one with people, I love having deep conversations. Small talk is like the death of me. But let's talk about crazy stuff. Let's talk about your thoughts and opinions on the world and what you think is going on. But in larger settings, I tend to sit back and just be the observer and watch my surroundings and see what's going on.

Shelise Sola [00:20:48] So I think that definitely is still translated. I'm not. I wouldn't consider myself shy or scared to be in public settings, but I definitely thrive more if it's just one on one and I can have someone's full attention.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:03] So relatable. Yeah.

Navigating Mormon Teen Years and Social Life

John Dehlin [00:21:05] Okay, so in the performing arts, should we talk about just kind of your Mormon teen years now?

Shelise Sola [00:21:12] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] If at some point. Well, I'm curious whether you loved, let's say from 12 to 18, did you love your Mormon teen experience? Did the train go off the tracks or, you know, how was it?

Shelise Sola [00:21:27] Yeah, let's see. I think I would start from the earliest, the 12 years of age where I was so excited to be in young women's beehive. Yeah, beehive. My mom had already been in the leadership in Young Women's and she was doing all the fun activities and I wanted to do the fun activities. So I remember being excited to get into it. And I think, I think that's where everything kind of started to go downhill with the purity culture thing. Because that's where it starts is when you're 12, what are the types of

John Dehlin [00:21:58] messages you would get as a 12 year old?

Shelise Sola [00:22:00] So the first one that I remember really affecting me. And it's not to do with purity culture, but it's the fear of if you don't follow It. Which was the lesson of the different kingdoms. So my mom was super pumped and she's like, I had so much fun setting that up. And I was like, yeah, it was kind of dramatic. Thanks, mom. Super effective.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] And for the Never Mormons. Tell them the lesson just ahead of them.

Shelise Sola [00:22:24] Yeah. So I'll give you an idea. They set up different rooms in the church house that were decorated like the Three Kingdoms.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] Oh. Like the temple ceremony. So like a really bright room for the solitude.

Shelise Sola [00:22:35] Did they do them in a temple too?

John Dehlin [00:22:36] In like the Salt Lake Temple? So this is a little bit of history. So before there were movies in the temple, before the. Did you ever go through the endowment yourself?

Shelise Sola [00:22:46] No, I did.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] Okay. So nowadays when a Mormon goes to the temple, they sit in a theater and watch a movie. And the different. The telestial, the lowest kingdom of heaven, the terrestrial and the celestial are kind of represented in the room where you're just seated the whole time. Back in the day, like in the Salt Lake Temple, before they were movies, you would start out in one room that ends up representing the telestial. Then you'd move to a different room to represent the terrestrial. And then eventually you'd go through into the celestial room.

Shelise Sola [00:23:23] Well, that's where they got it from. That must have been it.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] Yeah. So rooms that physically represented the different degrees of heaven.

Shelise Sola [00:23:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] So you're saying they recreated that sort of thing? They did in your chapel.

Shelise Sola [00:23:36] How'd she do that? They did. So I think the first room, I just remember being very bland. Like they took everything off the walls and I mean, the carpeted walls, for those who know, you can probably smell it and feel it as we speak. And it was just very plain. I don't even know if they put out chairs. I feel like we were sitting on the floor or something. Right. And then they read the scriptures about that correlated to the kingdom. Like, these are the people who are liars or whoremongers or whatever it is.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] Rapists and murderers.

Shelise Sola [00:24:04] Yeah. And I remember being like, oh, good thing that's not gonna be me. Like, I'm not gonna end up here. Cause I'm the A student. And then we go into the next room and it's like full of greenery and it's prettier. And we get chairs and it's like, okay, these are the people. I think they said they're probably Mormons here, but they didn't follow all the rules.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Or they're good, good people that just didn't happen to be Mormon. Right.

Shelise Sola [00:24:27] That didn't know about the doctrine. And so I'm like, okay, this isn't so bad, but it's definitely still not gonna be me. And then the next room, my mom's like, we brought in every lamp that we owned and it was so bright, just everything was white. We're putting white blankets everywhere. It's just decadent. And we're all just like, wow. And this is a celestial kingdom. And this is where you'll go if you do A, B or C all the way through Z and back around the Alphabet again. There's lots of rules, and I don't remember if they even mentioned the three levels within that level, but I just remember thinking, this is it.

Shelise Sola [00:25:04] This is how I end up, right? I'm going to be the best Mormon there is and just watch me. And so that came with, of course, getting married in the temple and having children. And that was the goal. And then they're like, now follow us, ladies, into this next room. And I'm like, but that's it. They lead us to outer darkness.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] Oh, no.

Shelise Sola [00:25:26] They put us in a blacked out room. They shut out every light towel under the door. You can't see the hand in front of your face. And in a very quiet voice, they're like, this is outer darkness. This is where you go if you know the truth and you turn away from it. And we're like huddled together. Me and my best friend are probably trying not to laugh, but also terrified. We're like laughing out of being uncomfortable. And that was a big moment for me because I remember thinking I could never leave the church. Yeah, I'm not gonna end up here. I just went from the most beautiful room in, you know, in the kingdoms of heaven. That was the shining example of what success looks like, where you get to

John Dehlin [00:26:10] live with God and your own family and your spouse and your kids. Right.

Shelise Sola [00:26:13] And my mom was there, so it was very like, oh, all right, this is what it's gonna be like. And then to go to complete darkness for eternity, that's really terrifying.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:24] Yeah, yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:26:25] And I'm a young kid.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:27] That's right.

Shelise Sola [00:26:27] And so from there on out, I'm thinking, well, gotta follow the rules and gotta do a perfect job. And the perfectionism sets in, the body shaming comes in, the dysmorphia, where you start learning that the more righteous men get the hottest women. So I need to be the most righteous or I need to be the hottest woman. So I get the most righteous man. Because I want every shot of getting pulled through the veil into the celestial kingdom and I can't do that without a righteous man. Need to make sure he picks me. So you have all this, all these standards going in the back of your mind, and then you also have the conflicting idea of. But you can't be sexy. You need to be the hottest one, but without showing your body.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] Hot, but not sexy.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:16] Hot, but like with shade wearing. Yes.

Shelise Sola [00:27:21] Yeah. Modest is hottest. So there was just so much conflicting there because. And you see it all the time, especially when I come back to Utah, and this is not to be a dig on anyone who lives here, but it feels very apparent to me where there needs to be this showmanship of these women, but within confines where they push the boundaries or like plastic surgery is such a huge deal here.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] Even though you live in la. Are you saying Utah, in your experience, Utah is more extreme in terms of female beauty than la?

Shelise Sola [00:27:58] Absolutely. More vain. Whoa. It's wild. I mean, wouldn't you say? Babe, he's not on camera. Yeah. So I don't know if this is still the statistic, but at least a couple years ago, Utah has the most plastic surgeons per capita than any other state.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

Shelise Sola [00:28:15] Yeah. So the women are going under the knife constantly, in fact, more than in la, more than in la, because in LA there's so much diversity and it's accepted and different is beautiful. And they. They want you to be unique in yourself, even though, of course, there's still Hollywood standards. But that's. Not everyone. Not everyone in LA is an actor, although most people think so. But it's more of just embrace who you are with whatever makes sense for you. And here it's. This is your box. And you need to be beautiful within these limits. And you can't be too beautiful because then you're too sexy and you're slutty. But you also need to attract the men and you need to have all of the kids. But don't be too sexual, because then you're slutty.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:04] That's right.

Shelise Sola [00:29:04] So it's really hard to navigate. And that's something that I remember distinctly was, oh, when I grow up, I'm going to get a boob job. And I did. I took them out because they made me really sick. But I. That was a thing, like, everyone always knows, like, okay, well, if you don't have. If you're not blessed in the chest, then just get them when you're older. You look very shocked.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] What age? I was just saying what age?

Shelise Sola [00:29:28] So I got them put in at 23.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] Okay.

Shelise Sola [00:29:32] So I was running for Miss California USA and I was like, well, if I'm going to win, I need boobs. It was just like very clear to me. So that was a big part of my upbringing, is having the perfect body. I remember getting made fun of a lot because I had a big butt. Have a big butt. And I'm thinking like, well, is that a bad thing? But I'm supposed to be sexy, but not too sexy. Again, it's this whole back and forth. I struggled with the modesty thing a lot. Well, they told me I struggled with it. I thought I was following the rules, but I would often get singled out in school, which again, like, you could say it's separate from Mormonism, but it's not. It's the school run on Mormon principles and modesty standards.

Body Standards, Modesty Culture, and Shame

John Dehlin [00:30:17] What are the things that you would. What are the types of clothing you would get?

Shelise Sola [00:30:21] Yeah, so I remember specifically I had a skort so skirt with shorts underneath. That was just at my fingertips when I put my arms down, which were the rules. And I got called in and there was an assistant principal who literally circled me. It was a woman, actually. She circled me, looked me up and down and was like, that's too short. You're, you know, causing people to look at you. It's distracting. And I can see your underwear lines. And my response was really, I mean, I'm not looking back there. I don't know what you can see, what you can't see, but it felt very violating.

Shelise Sola [00:30:58] I'm like, why is she looking at my underwear? And other times where I would have a shirt that covered my stomach and then I would get called to the office because they said, well, when you raised your hand, your stomach was showing. And I was like, how am I supposed to control that? You know?

Shelise Sola [00:31:15] And then I call it the shame shirt. So there was this one specific time, and this is really funny, there was a little talent show. And as the dancer, I was like, oh, I'm gonna do a dance routine with my best friends.

Shelise Sola [00:31:26] And so we change into these shirts. And what's funny is I don't know if my mom was aware of the saying or if she didn't even know it said All Star 69. And it was a baseball shirt. So it was like an actual baseball looking shirt, the three quarter sleeves. And it had the number like it was a jersey number. And it said All Star, like the all Star team. So we changed into them, did our little dance, we were going back, we were walking into the bathroom to change into our other clothes and we Got yanked out by. I think it was the same woman that sized me up the last time with the skirt.

Shelise Sola [00:32:04] And she just started screaming at us. That is so inappropriate. How dare you wear something like that in school? And we're like, so confused because it was long, had long sleeves, and we're just looking at each other like, I don't get it. And she's like, don't you know the rules? It's in the handbook. And my friend, I love her so much, she's like, I don't read.

Shelise Sola [00:32:24] But we're just like, we don't understand what's wrong about it. But guess what? We have clothes that we were just about to put on. So it's fine. No, you're gonna come with me. So she takes us to the principal's office.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] 69. Cause it's a sexual reference to the sexual position.

Shelise Sola [00:32:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:41] Okay.

Shelise Sola [00:32:41] So she takes us to the office and she gives us what I call the shame shirt, which is like the 4xL school shirt with the logo on it. And we were just like, why are we being called out right now? By the time I get back to the classroom, everyone's like, well, what was the shirt? And we're like, it just said All Stars 69. Well, now kids are talking about what 69 means. Like, it did not need to be a thing.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] So that wasn't you being rebellious or not?

Shelise Sola [00:33:08] We had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] You just didn't know.

Shelise Sola [00:33:10] Had no idea. And we were publicly shamed for it. And we weren't even allowed to put our own clothes back on. Which, why do you need to make a spectacle of it? And now kids are talking about it.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:21] I know. The effect is that now it's a thing. Yes. Now it's like spotlighted as opposed to. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:33:29] And that's one of my biggest gripes too with purity culture is they put so much emphasis on it that it has the opposite effect.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:37] Totally.

Shelise Sola [00:33:38] And it hypersexualizes everything. Instead of just allowing girls to be girls and not sexualizing a 12 year old for wearing a tank top, like, we don't need to be doing that. That it has the complete opposite effect than they want it to.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] So different people react to these modesty standards in different ways. I remember meeting Margi and Margi, I almost felt like at byu, you. You didn't love the. Just the strictness of dressing standards for women. And I think you would sort of maybe rebel against it in your own kind of polite way. Is that fair to say? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:23] I grew up back east and so we Definitely had some of the. Some similar conditioning. But obviously we went to school with people, like, we had a much more diverse experience, and our schools weren't doing the things that you experienced, which I recognize because when we moved to Logan, what you're describing absolutely was part of our children's experience, too.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Which is like 30 minutes from Tremont, right?

Shelise Sola [00:34:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:55] Which is just heart. I mean, really, it's heartbreaking, the shaming there.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] So I guess I'm wondering, did you feel rebellious in those high school years against the dress standards? Were you all for them and they were just hyper concerned, and you were a victim of that. How was that for you?

Shelise Sola [00:35:13] I think it was a mix because, again, I wanted to check every box and I wanted to make it to the highest level of heaven. At the same time, I love fashion, and I've been trying to sew my own clothes and don't know what I'm doing. So it was this push and pull of, okay, how can I make this outfit cool and not look dorky wearing a T shirt under a tank top? Like, how can I express myself fully but still get into the highest level of heaven?

John Dehlin [00:35:42] And to use the church's expectations words, be hot for your husband to attract a hot returned missionary within the box. Right? Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:35:51] Yeah. And so it was hard because even in places where I should not have been shamed for my clothes, like girls camp, I go to girls camp, and we're all getting into the lake, into the pond. It's all women except for the. What? Two men who have to be there because women can't do anything on their own, apparently.

Shelise Sola [00:36:10] And I show up in a tankini because I loathed one pieces. And I was like, okay, at least I can wear two pieces. And it was showing, like, maybe half an inch of my stomach. And they come up to me, start yelling at me, not even like, shalice, Maybe next time bring a different swimsuit. It's. What are you thinking? You should not be wearing this. You need to go put something on now. You need to cover up. And how confusing is it when it's also just all girls? And I'm like, who for. Who am I covering up for? Because my whole life I was taught that my body is not mine.

Shelise Sola [00:36:48] It's for the gaze of men. And either it's in a negative sense of you can't show your body because of the gaze of men, or once you're married, you need to show your body for their approval.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:00] Yes.

Shelise Sola [00:37:01] And so it was just a weird situation where now I'm putting On this again, I think they gave me a giant T shirt, and I'm drowning in the lake because I can't swim with this T shirt on. And it just was compacting, like, all of these things, all of these messages.

Shelise Sola [00:37:17] And so I really wanted to be good, and at the same time, I wanted to be myself. And that was conflicting so much. I mean, I knew in. It was my junior year of high school, I took a fashion design class, and I was like, this is what I'm meant to do. I'm meant to design clothes.

Shelise Sola [00:37:35] And so it was really hard to kind of work around that mentality of, yeah, but everything that I find interesting isn't modest, and what do I do with that? In fact, when I moved to Oregon my senior year of high school, the bishop, we had our little meeting or whatever, and he was like, okay, what are you doing for college? And I'd already decided, I'm gonna go to school for fashion design. And he's like, oh, my gosh, that's so amazing, because now we're gonna have someone to design modest clothing. And I was like, no, I don't think that's gonna be me. In my head, I'm thinking, sure, I'll wear modest clothing, but I'm not gonna design modest.

Shelise Sola [00:38:11] Like, that's so boring for me not to say that you can't have cute clothing that is modest. But I wanted to be outside the box. And so it was a really weird moment for me when I was like, oh, this is what they expect of me. And I don't know if I can live up to that.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:29] Yeah. Yeah. I have a question. Around your teen years, and as you're describing, all these messages about your body that feel like the end result is largely dissociative. Right?

Shelise Sola [00:38:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:43] With your own body, if you're. If it needs to look a certain way, be dressed a certain way, and people are. You're getting a lot of feedback about what your body looks like and what it's doing to other people's thoughts or, like, how. How did you feel about your body as a teen?

Shelise Sola [00:39:02] I would say. I would say largely, I. I didn't like it. I was waiting for the genes of my mom's natural, beautiful breasts to come in that never did. And I was getting made fun of for having a butt that was too big and wouldn't fit in most pants.

Shelise Sola [00:39:22] And I don't know, because I did get a lot of attention in some ways, but then in other ways, it was like, maybe it's bad attention. Maybe I shouldn't be be trying this hard. I would say ultimately it played into body dysmorphia, where I was fine. Like, I was a normal, average sized kid. I was healthy.

Shelise Sola [00:39:50] People would probably say that I was beautiful. And still I was like, oh, I don't know. Again, it's that push, pull, like, how much do I exert myself, how much do I try to be beautiful and how much do I try to disappear so I don't keep getting in trouble?

Shelise Sola [00:40:04] And I feel like that was part of it too, is I would say that I would consider myself. I would have considered myself more of a popular kid because I was on the dance teams and I had a lot of friends and I feel like they targeted me because of that. So anytime that I would get in trouble for being immodest, I would be like, what about her? She's wearing like a literal belly shirt before she raises, raises their hand. And I remember asking them, why are you not getting her in trouble? And just me. And it's, well, you need to set more of an example.

Shelise Sola [00:40:37] So it's like I was standing out, but not in a good way. It was just all really confusing. And so I think it ultimately took a toll on how much is it okay to be beautiful and sexy? How much do I need to disappear? How much do I need to try and fix myself and change myself, knowing that big breasts are a beautiful thing and people want them and men want them, but don't show them. But maybe you should get them so that you can attract the right guy. You know, it was just weird. I mean, now that I'm speaking it out loud, it's so confusing to even elaborate on.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:17] Yes, yes. And also, like, what I'm noticing too is, like, what happens. And these are developmental years too. Just when you're in this space of where everything. It's so evaluative. You're, like, looking at your body in this way of evaluating body parts and objectifying, objectifying. And there's like, there is a clear optimization plan on the body. Oh, yeah. And that's just such a different space than really being in your body, having an experience of, like, what feels good, what feels natural to you, what feels honoring and having that be kind of your guide. It's very much. It's centered on other people's experience of you. And.

Shelise Sola [00:42:06] Yeah, and that's such a good point. And I want to quickly point out too, that when we talk about modesty, especially on our channel, we often get people being like, what's wrong with modesty? Modesty Is beautiful. Absolutely. If that's what you want. If you feel comfortable covered up and you feel your most beautiful self and no one is forcing you to do that, please do that. Do what makes you comfortable. What I have an issue with is the shame that comes with not being modest within these different groups and organizations. So if that makes you happy, great. It didn't make me happy. I just felt restricted and objectified and put down.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Sexualized.

Shelise Sola [00:42:45] Sexualized. And it didn't make me feel good. And it ultimately made me want my body to look. Be different. Like, I want my butt to be smaller so people don't keep grabbing it. So people don't keep making remarks because I must be causing them to think sinful thoughts. But I also want my boobs to be bigger because that's what men like. And it was just.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:08] It.

Shelise Sola [00:43:08] It boiled down to not feeling like I was ever enough and not being worthy enough because sometimes I was too much.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] Yeah, yeah. I'm so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] To you and all the women.

Shelise Sola [00:43:23] Yeah. And it's not even just for me, like you're saying. It's everyone experience. At least. I feel like it's a very common experience where it's not just my experience. Everyone had some sort of level of this in their own life if they were a woman.

Dating, Sexuality, and Bishop Interviews as a Teen

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Any stories about sort of dating and the complexities of dating as a Mormon in high school? Or was that not a complicated thing?

Shelise Sola [00:43:51] Yeah. I could tell you about my first kiss, whatever you want, because it is a big moment for me in the context of Mormonism. So I think I was 13. And for those who don't know, you're not supposed to kiss or have a boyfriend until you're 16.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] In Mormonism.

Shelise Sola [00:44:08] In Mormonism, yeah. Thanks for that caveat. And. And I remember having this crush on somebody, and I. Oh, my gosh, I liked him so much. And we were at a football game. It was like, the only place where boys and girls can actually interact with each other, because otherwise you don't see them because you're not really allowed to do that yet.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] What's the high school?

Shelise Sola [00:44:28] Bear River.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Bear river, yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:44:29] Yeah. So we were at one of the high school football games, and someone calls me over. I think it was even my crush. He calls me over and he's like, kiss me. And I'm like, you know, in that moment, I'm like, of course I wanna kiss him, but I can't kiss him. I'm not supposed to, but I really want to. And all of his friends are gathering around and they're like, do it, do it, or she's not gonna do it. She's not gonna kiss him. And my body just took over, and I was like, okay, I'll do it. And just stepped forward, and it was like.

Shelise Sola [00:44:55] Like a peck. It was just the most innocent little, little kiss. And I'm 13. And immediately after, he basically runs away. And then one of his friends, they're all like, oh, man. And I'm like, that's a weird response. And one of them was like, yeah, we bet him that he couldn't kiss five girls tonight. And I was like, it was so sad, but I was still. It was a weird place of complete elation. I was floating. It was my first kiss with my crush, and I just liked him so much, and it was amazing. And then on the other hand, it was a bet, and I broke the rules.

Shelise Sola [00:45:35] One of those check marks that I had checked off of, you're not gonna date till you're 16, was just scribbled out, and now I am a sinner. And it was so hard to navigate those feelings. And I remember the whole drive home, I was, like, so excited and just touching my lips, and that was amazing. And then I would flash to, you're a sinner. You shouldn't have done that. You're a horrible person. Now you have to repent for it.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] And.

Shelise Sola [00:46:04] And the thing that it caused was I mentioned I was best friends and best friends with my mom. We tell each other everything. And I wanted so badly to tell her, but I didn't know what she was gonna say. I didn't know if she was gonna be upset, if she was gonna punish me.

Shelise Sola [00:46:22] And she's like. She's not even that type. I don't think I was ever really punished a day in my life. I'd never had timeouts. I was never spanked. Like, I was a good kid, and she didn't really do that stuff, but I was so terrified to tell her. And I remember driving home, it was this long drive to get home because we lived up on the mountainside. And sitting there, it had been maybe two days since it happened. And I was just feeling so guilty, just basking in my shame, looking out at the cornfield as we drive by. And she says to me randomly, you know what, Shalisa?

Shelise Sola [00:46:56] I'm just so proud of you. You are just such a good girl. You know, I was talking to so and so, and her daughter's really struggling and making some bad choices, and I was like, oh, my gosh, she knows. She knows that I'M a sinner, and she knows that I messed up. And I was so terrified. And I'm like, should I tell her, no, I can't. Is this her way of trying to get it out of me? You know, I'm freaking out, and there's no reason I should be freaking out, and I don't end up telling her. And I think my brother spilled the beans.

Shelise Sola [00:47:24] Like, Shaniza had her first kiss, and I was livid that he told her, but she was heartbroken. And she's like, oh, why didn't you tell me? I would have loved to know. Like, will you tell me about it now? And she wasn't mad at all.

Shelise Sola [00:47:37] And it just shows that something so simple can come between family members, can cause this unnecessary anxiety for these children who are really just coming into themselves, who are exploring their sexuality, are trying to figure out how life works.

Shelise Sola [00:47:58] And it was so much of a big deal that when I did have my first real kiss with a boyfriend, I remember asking her because I was like, I have this boyfriend, you know, and he wants to kiss me. And she's like, well, why don't you kiss him? And I'm like, mom, I'm only 15. She's like, so. And I was like, I'm sorry, what did you just say? That, like, I thought I needed her permission to even kiss a boy. And so it was such a big deal that when he came over, it was like, tonight. And everyone knew about it. My whole family knew.

Shelise Sola [00:48:26] And someone answers the door and gives him a pack of gum, and he's like, what is this? And then he continues through the house, and my mom hands him mints. And it was just this ridiculous thing that by the time he got downstairs, he was like, you told them that we were gonna kiss tonight? It's just so funny and so unnecessary and just all this again, all this attention put to a place where it really doesn't need to be. It's not that big of a deal

John Dehlin [00:48:57] any, just because it's such a part of so many people we interviews, Mormon story, any sort of bishop worthiness interview sort of interactions in those high school years or not.

Shelise Sola [00:49:09] Oh, yeah, that was definitely a big part of the shame, too, or at least where it started. So I remember the first time trying to think back of how old I was. I must have been 15, because I had been making out with boys at this point, or my boyfriends, and they were going to do a temple trip for baptisms for the dead. And I remember thinking I might not be worthy. I was actually Terrified because I had been going on these for years. And again, my mom was in the young women's. And so I'm thinking, well, if I'm not worthy, she's gonna find out, and everyone's gonna know that I didn't go because I wasn't worthy, because everyone's gonna expect me to go because I'm the superstar Mormon.

Shelise Sola [00:49:56] And I remember going into the office and telling him it was something like, I think I laid on top of him while I was making out. And I thought that that was just not okay. I mean, they tell you it's not okay, so it wasn't completely wrong.

Shelise Sola [00:50:09] And luckily, my bishop was so kind and loving, and he was like, shalice, thank you for telling me you are more than worthy to go to the temple. It was my only positive bishop experience, so it was, like, completely terrifying and full of anxiety. But the bishop roulette gave me a very kind, compassionate guy to talk to, which was not my experience later on.

John Dehlin [00:50:35] Is it okay if I just say that even if you weren't shamed and he was a nice guy, there's still a problem with, number one, an adult asking you about your sexual behavior as a teen alone in a room.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:48] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:50:49] But separate from that, just the idea that you are in a context of evaluation, where some man is determining whether or not you're worthy or valuable based on information he's got no business knowing, even if it's a positive outcome. I just realized that's still problematic.

Shelise Sola [00:51:10] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] Maybe I shouldn't project that onto you.

Shelise Sola [00:51:12] No, it is. And it's funny, because I forget that until I'm speaking to someone who's never been Mormon, and then they're like, wait, why did your bishop know all these things? And I'm like, oh, right. It's not normal to tell people you're sexual.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] It's like grooming you for future shame interviews. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:31] And it plays into a theme of yours, which is like. That literally is like asking a man, here's what I've done. Am I good enough?

Shelise Sola [00:51:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:51:41] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:41] Am I good enough? And for many. For many, it's absolutely not. And everyone's gonna know it.

Shelise Sola [00:51:47] Yep. Cause you won't be. That definitely comes in later. So as far as my teen years, though, it seemed pretty normal on the outside, but there was a lot of emotional turmoil. There was this guilt, this shame that never really went away. There was wanting to push against the boundaries of at least modesty. That was just the one thing. I'm like, I just want to express myself. I always Dressed a little different and weird from everybody else because I just like to play around with clothes and identity and figuring out who I was. When they were considering implementing uniforms, I about lost my mind. I was like, no way. Because that was the only thing that.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] In the high school.

Shelise Sola [00:52:28] In the high school.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Like student uniforms for high school.

Shelise Sola [00:52:31] Yeah, it was floating around for a while that they were seriously considering doing that. And I'm just thinking that is the only shred of individuality that I have. And we know that in high demand groups and cults, they take away your identity because they tell you who to be, how to think, how to behave. And so that was my form of self expression, was dancing in my clothes. And so other than that, I feel like it was a pretty normal experience. Had great friends. And then I moved to Oregon and everything kind of flipped on its head.

Moving to Oregon and a Fork in the Road

Margi Dehlin [00:53:05] How old were you when you moved to Oregon?

Shelise Sola [00:53:07] I was. I think I had just turned 17.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] So senior year in high school.

Shelise Sola [00:53:12] Senior year of high school was completed in Oregon. And it's because, oh, I forgot about the most cringy bishop interview. Sean. It wasn't even an interview. But it's relevant because it's part of the story. But I had figured out that my dad had cheated on my mom. And it was just through context clues.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] While you were in high school?

Shelise Sola [00:53:33] In high school? No, when I was like 11 or 12.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] Oh, middle school.

Shelise Sola [00:53:37] Yeah. I picked up on it and I was like, something's wrong. Mom is hysterical. She's crying, she's yelling at him. Heard something about another woman. Like, I was there when she figured it out. And so I remember I got set up with a bishop's interview. And I go in, it wasn't a Sunday. Sit in one of the primary rooms in those little tiny chairs, those hard chairs, so uncomfortable. And he's like, do you know why you're here today? Luckily, again, it was that cool Bishop. I think it was that cool Bishop.

Shelise Sola [00:54:06] And no, it wasn't him. It was somebody else. Want to make sure I get the facts right? But he was like, you know, your parents have been struggling. Do you know what's going on? And I was like, affair. I barely even knew what the word meant. And he's like, yeah, that's right. This is what's been going on. And in my mind, I'm like, why are you telling me? This is so weird.

Shelise Sola [00:54:27] Why would the bishop be charged with giving me this news or helping me understand? And it was all because he wanted to tell me. Your dad is doing his best to make Amends. He's working really hard to repent and kind of, like, wanting. I don't know if he was wanting me to feel bad for my dad and not be upset with him. They gave me the miracle forgiveness. And I looked at this book. I'm like, yeah, I'm not reading that. Glad I didn't, because that's a train wreck.

Shelise Sola [00:54:59] And it was just such a weird moment. And then I remember my mom being like, I want to have you see a therapist. And I don't know why I was so against it. I was like, do not send. And from that point on, I was just like, not okay. Like, it's all coming to me now. So it also ties into the purity culture, the sexuality thing. I'm like, my mom did what she was supposed to do. She got married in the temple. She had kids. We go to church. She holds callings. And now maybe her salvation is at risk because this guy messed it up.

Shelise Sola [00:55:35] And I just had so much anger toward my dad. Like, I just didn't want anything to do with him. I was like, don't touch me. Don't look at me. I was so upset. And also, my best friend was just hurt. She was just crying in the closet for months at a time. Lost so much weight.

Shelise Sola [00:55:53] And so that was, like, a really pivotal moment in my life, too, where I had to reevaluate everything and go, wait. So even if I find my eternal companion, it could all just go down

Margi Dehlin [00:56:03] the drain with something that's, like, outside your control? Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:56:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] I mean, I guess an orthodox Mormon might say, well, if your dad became unworthy, either in this life or in the next, she could divorce your dad and get sealed to someone else and still make the celestial kingdom true.

Shelise Sola [00:56:24] Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And I remember, but if she loved

John Dehlin [00:56:27] him and stayed with him and he didn't make the celestial kingdom, then she's screwed. Yeah, right.

Shelise Sola [00:56:32] So I remember telling her, because she's like, I don't know what to do. And I was like, you should divorce him. Like, I was 100% on board with her finding someone who wouldn't betray her in that way. And she was like, no, because I want to keep my family together. In fact, she tells me now that she was so worried about her image in the church, she didn't tell anyone that it happened. I don't even think she told her best friend because she was worried what kind of picture that would paint of her in the ward.

Shelise Sola [00:57:02] And so it was like, this big secret that she was keeping. And, man, I Just had so much anger from then on out. So I say that. And the reason I thought of it is because around the time that that happened, she was like, I, I can't be in the same house with you. Like, I will go crazy and I will need to divorce you unless you leave. So he took a job in Oregon where his uncle gave him this job of renovating this big condominium complex. And so he would just come home like every two weeks if I had a dance competition or something.

Shelise Sola [00:57:37] And so he was there for a few years until eventually my uncle made the crazy, crazy statement of Shalis, why don't you just move here? And I was like, there's no way. And I was super angry. But then, guys, what I did is I prayed about it and I got out my scriptures and I did the whole like flipping through and putting a finger down and being like, what does it say? And everything was pointing to moving to Oregon. Now that's how spiritual I was. It was very much, well, I need to ask God what he thinks or heavenly father, cuz we don't really say God back then.

Shelise Sola [00:58:12] I need to pray about it. I need to see, because maybe this is what's the right thing to do. So when I came to my mom and I was like, okay, let's move to Oregon, she was like, hold on, wait, What?

Shelise Sola [00:58:21] Wait, so you do want to uproot our lives? My brothers had already moved out of the house. It was just me and her. And so that's why we ended up there.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] My senior mom came with you to Oregon?

Shelise Sola [00:58:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] Okay.

Shelise Sola [00:58:32] Yep. So at that point, they had been working on their relationship. It was a lot better because he wasn't there 24 7. It was just me and her thickest thieves doing our thing together. And so that's when we moved to Oregon. I joined the dance team there, the cheer team there. So I was pretty injected into the social life. But I was adamant that I was the cool Mormon and not the weird one. Yeah. Very, very different environment.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:01] Can I just say it means makes all the sense to me why that moment with your mom and your dad having a relationship outside the relationship, why that would be so impactful with what you've given us. In particular, this idea of like, you're well aware of what's at stake, you have this room based where heaven scenario. And I feel like it's one of the overt messages, is that you will be protected if you make the right choices. Yeah, that is, that is the thing you're going for is this Idea of like, well, but I'll be. I'll be protected and I'll be rewarded and I will have. Right. And so in that moment, it. It stands to reason that it lands in your psyche of like, wait, she wasn't protected. Like, it's a gap in the plan. You're noticing a discrepancy in what has been promised and what was we've been told.

Shelise Sola [01:00:00] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:00] And the impact of all these decisions that feel so grave wearing. Why you're having such anxiety around. Is my skirt long enough or. It's because every decision is basically, you get the protection or you don't.

Shelise Sola [01:00:16] Yeah, that's exactly it. I was following all the rules, and mom was following all the rules, so why are we being punished?

Margi Dehlin [01:00:21] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:00:22] So then all of a sudden it's wait, do I have to follow all the rules? Like, I'm gonna be punished anyway.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:28] Yes, exactly.

Shelise Sola [01:00:30] Yeah. Is there room? Is there wiggle room? Or do I still need to suffer to do everything right, knowing that it could still fall apart?

John Dehlin [01:00:40] Yeah. So how did your Mormon story proceed?

Shelise Sola [01:00:45] Oh, goodness. Yeah. Moving to Oregon was the best thing I could have done. I think it was a total fork in the road for my life. I get there and again, I'm trying to qualify myself because everyone is starting to ask me the craziest questions, starting with, oh, you're the Utah girl, so you're Mormon. And I'm like, yeah, but. Yeah, but it's great. You should come to church. And I'm trying to be a missionary. Every member a missionary. And. But I'm trying not to push it. And for the first time, I'm having to explain these doctrines. No one's asked me questions before. We were all Mormon. We don't talk about the weird stuff. It just is. And people ask me if I had horns. I'm like, what? Where is that even. Do you know where that comes from, John? The horn thing?

John Dehlin [01:01:34] I mean, probably. I mean, I'm sure they used to think that about Jews. Like, it's just a typical weird Christian. Do you have a tail? Do you have horns? Like, when somebody is different, you know, they. They make weird assumptions like that.

Shelise Sola [01:01:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] And there's a polygamy question. Are you a polygamist? Right. Oh, how many wives is your dad, John, that.

Shelise Sola [01:01:56] I hated that question so much. It was the second follow up question when, after I confirmed I was Mormon. How many moms did you have? And I talk about all the time on the channel because I hated it so much. And I didn't even know that people Were still practicing, practicing polygamy. I was very ignorant to the fact that there were break offs. And anyway, I would get so angry and be like, no, it's one man, one woman for time and all eternity. And I'm gonna find my celestial spouse forgetting to tell them that, well, there's polygamy in heaven. But I wasn't gonna tell them that because that's a little too crazy.

Shelise Sola [01:02:28] I want them to like me. And it just got super complicated because I really, for the first time, tried to distance myself from my identity in order to fit in, but also preach to them in a way that got them over to my side.

Shelise Sola [01:02:47] So it was very interesting. And I remember there was this one time that there were these exchange students, I think they were Russians. And me and my super, super Mormon friend were trying to explain to them about Joseph Smith. And we're like, yeah, it's so great. This guy, he saw God and Jesus and they told him about this, another testament of Christ.

Shelise Sola [01:03:12] And there's this whole book that most people don't even know about where Jesus can or where it's another testament of Jesus. And they're like, wow, that makes a lot of sense. And we're like, yeah, it was from these golden plates. And they're like, awesome, where are these plates now? And in the moment I was like, well, they were taken back to heaven.

Shelise Sola [01:03:35] I was like, that sounds insane. It was the first time that I was just. I said it out loud and I heard myself say it and I was like, okay. And we lost him. So it was moments like that where I had to try and qualify myself. And then the biggest one would have been I had made a friend. I considered her my best friend. Someone who I could just do everything with. She was also a cheerleader. She came from a very regular Christian family, so long line of pastors. And I don't know what denomination, maybe it's non denominational, but like the megachurch kind. And so one day we're in my car and.

Shelise Sola [01:04:15] Or no, we're in her car because she's driving and she like, she parks it, it's dark out. And she's like, I need to talk to you. And I'm like, oh, this sounds serious. So she whips out this notebook and she had gone to the school library and she had watched everything she could find on Mormonism and she took notes.

Shelise Sola [01:04:34] And now she's confronting me like intervention style about Mormonism and she's like, yeah, you worship Joseph Smith. And I'm like, that's not true. And he translated by putting his head in a hat. And my girl, it's one of the oldest rumors in the book. And she's like, going on and on about all this stuff, and she's like, I'm just really worried about you because if you don't believe in the real Jesus. Because she's like, also, you believe he's your brother, and that's blasphemous. If you don't believe in the real Jesus, you're gonna go to hell. And she really meant it.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] She's worried you were in a cult. Yeah, she's trying to save you, get you out of a cult.

Shelise Sola [01:05:15] Yeah, she was, because she really cared about me. And I just. I laughed because I was like, none of that's true. I was like, don't you think I would know? I'm a Mormon. I grew up with this stuff. And, like, I would know if that's true. That's just anti Mormon lies.

Shelise Sola [01:05:35] And she just didn't accept it. And she was like, why don't you just come to my church? And, you know, just to, like, check it out. And so I remember having a conversation with my mom. She's like, yeah, go check it out. See what it's like. And I even considered going to one of those big Christian youth camps. They had, like, the bungee things and the zip lines and all this, you know? And I lived in the part of Oregon that, at least at the time it was the wealthiest part of Oregon. So these parents had money, and it was like thousands of kids coming to this.

Discovering the Church's Troubling History

Shelise Sola [01:06:11] And my mom was like, aren't you a little worried that it might rock your testimony? And I was like, listen, mom, it's so funny, these conversations. I have to laugh now. I was like, they have the truth, but only part of the truth, and I'm never gonna forget the rest of the truth. And she's like, that's a really good point, Shalice. And so I did.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:32] Your conditioning was rock solid.

Shelise Sola [01:06:34] Oh, it was so good. Like, I. Yes, I could dispel any argument. I was just, like, on the path. And so I went to her church, and I remember walking in and it's this just huge building, like an arena. And they got the rock band on stage, and it is so opposite from the don't speak, don't clap in the Mormon churches. And they're like, hands up, and they're praising the Lord and singing. And I was just like, this is a concert for Jesus. And it is so weird. I was just so out of my element, and I tried to get her to come to our church. And she never did because her family was probably like, no, that's Church of Satan.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] But yeah, in the town I grew up in, Katy, Texas, near Houston, you know, the Baptist church would put on every year a seminar called Mormons and other cults. And they would show the movie the God makers. So as far back as the mid-80s, I'm put on notice that people think our church is a cult.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] But the weird thing is that doesn't make you suspect your church more. It makes you more committed to your church. And it helps build up these antibodies. It's almost like immunization, like inoculation. Once they come at you and you weather that storm of being accused of being in a cult, anytime after that you're accused of being in a cult, you're like, oh, no, I've already dealt with that.

Shelise Sola [01:07:59] Like, been there, done that. Know the arguments, know how to say you're wrong.

John Dehlin [01:08:03] So it actually strengthens your commitment.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:05] It does.

John Dehlin [01:08:05] To be accused of being in a cult. It does sometimes to the organization. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:08:09] So what happened with me when she came up with these ridiculous claims, I was like, okay, I'm gonna check this out on the Internet. So I go home and I start googling. And this was of those pivotal moments. And I've told some of these stories before, this is like the main one for me. So I'm googling and I come across the ceremony of the slitting of the throat and the. The bowel thing.

John Dehlin [01:08:32] And in the temple, YouTube exists by this point, around what year would you have been assuming you was on YouTube?

Shelise Sola [01:08:39] So it was around 2008.

John Dehlin [01:08:41] Okay, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:08:43] So. But I didn't find it on YouTube. It was like this random back when websites were just really clunky and like purple font and stuff. And so it didn't look credible. Let's just say that.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:08:54] And so I call my mom over and I'm like in this laughing fit and I'm like, you gotta see this. Look what they're saying. And I read the paragraph and she had been through the temple and she.

John Dehlin [01:09:06] In the old way, she had been. She had done the death oaths and stuff.

Shelise Sola [01:09:09] She told me later on I found out that she hadn't done it herself, but she knew that it was a thing her mom had told her or somebody had told her. And so I was like, can you believe this crazy anti mormon website? And she was just white and she looked like she'd seen a ghost. And she was just staring at me because for those who don't know about this whole blood atonement thing. It's. If you reveal the secrets of the temple, you agree to slit your throat and cut out your bowels. And I'm literally asking her to reveal the secrets of the temple in this moment.

Shelise Sola [01:09:45] And so she's staring at me, and it takes her a minute, and I'm very concerned, looking at her face, and she goes, well, they don't do that anymore. And my heart just dropped into my stomach, and I probably also went white. And I'm like, wait, what do you mean anymore? Yeah. I'm like, so this is true? This actually happened? And she's like, yeah, but it was a long time ago. As in, like, 10 years ago, right? At this point, 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] They stopped in 1990.

Shelise Sola [01:10:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] So I. I went through the temple. When I did do this. The slitting.

Shelise Sola [01:10:22] You did it?

John Dehlin [01:10:22] Disemboweling thing. Yeah. And I'm 54, so.

Shelise Sola [01:10:25] Yeah. And so she. She's like, yeah, don't worry. You know, it's not a thing anymore. And that was way too traumatic to even acknowledge. I was like, okay, cool. And I just, like, put it away. I'm like, we're not gonna go there right now. That's too much. And I. And so I did find, though, like, the Masonry connection, but I didn't really know what that meant, so I'm like, yeah, people are saying that it's like Freemasonry, but is Freemasonry bad? I don't really know. And so I just kind of shoved it off. And when I got to Vegas, so I moved to Vegas for college, by the way, that friendship fizzled out because I think she's like. She's unsavable. Moving on before I get infected with her Mormonism stuff.

John Dehlin [01:11:12] And for those who don't know Joseph Smith was a Mason, the throat slitting, disemboweling thing was part of the Masonic ritual. Probably still is. But once Joseph became a Mason in Nauvoo in the 1840s, he imported those Masonic rituals into the Mormon Temple ceremony. And that's how we got it, and that's why it was taken out, is because the Brethren realized how embarrassing and cringy that was in the modern era. So, anyway, that's the. If you want to go read up on Joseph Smith. The Masonic Temple ceremony. The Mormon Temple ceremony. There's plenty on the Internet now to explain all that. Just wanted to make sure people understood.

College, Doubt, and Drifting from the Faith

John Dehlin [01:11:53] So back to you. So you lose that Christian friend, and you go to college really quickly. So by the time you graduate from high school, are you a devout, believing Mormon? Are you in it to win it? Are you believing the church is true? Are you wanting to marry a return missionary and go to the temple and do the eternal Family and all that?

Shelise Sola [01:12:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Then why not byu? Why you Vegas?

Shelise Sola [01:12:18] I was just gonna say there was a very serious conversation that I had with my mom, and I was like, mom, I think I have to go to byu. And she's like, why? Because I don't know if she knew much about it or she was just like, not wanting me to go the religious direction, but I was like, I know I want to do fashion design, and I don't know what type of program that they have in byu, but I need to marry a returned missionary and I need to find a hot one. I was like, very much in the shallow, like, weird, hypersexualized mindset of hot, hot guy.

Shelise Sola [01:12:58] And so I'm like, what are the chances now that I've been out of Utah and I understand the slim pickings of Mormons in other states? I'm like, I think I need to go back to Utah, where I have more of a chance to find the right guy for me, who I'm attracted to, who also values the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:17] The selection pool is much bigger.

Shelise Sola [01:13:19] Yes. And. And I don't know at what point we just decided that wasn't for me. But I think someone had mentioned that there was a school in Vegas that focused on fashion design and was really great and it was fairly affordable. And I guess the spirit led me to that direction where I was like, you know, I want to go to school for fashion design. I don't want to get a business degree and take a fashion class. Like, this is my path. And so that's what I did. And I guess to further answer your question, John, was I still a devout Mormon? I believed it. I believed I still wanted to go to the highest level of heaven, but I was dipping toes in the pool of sin, where I after high school

John Dehlin [01:14:07] or towards the end of high school,

Margi Dehlin [01:14:09] or what we might now say is self exploration and developing, which are your own identity.

John Dehlin [01:14:15] Our children have helped us reframe it to now it's healthy normative behavior, human behavior.

Shelise Sola [01:14:21] But you're gonna laugh because my way of rebelling was I remember walking out of my bedroom to go to school, and I was wearing a spaghetti strap tank top by itself. And I looked at my mom and she looked at me, and I looked at my mom and she goes, you gonna wear that to school? And I was like.

Shelise Sola [01:14:39] And she's like, okay, if you feel comfortable in it. This is why I love my mom. She didn't say no, but she was like, if you feel comfortable. Which the subtext was, if you're okay with not being modest, you know what that means. And I was like, great. And I went off to school, and I was so pumped that I wasn't being shamed for once, which was also a funny thing in Oregon when I sat down with. With the principal before I even started the school year, just to be like, hi, I'm the new kid. This is how we do things. I remember asking him about modesty, and I was like, hey, so do you guys have some rules around dress code?

Shelise Sola [01:15:17] And he was like, what? And I like to say he looked at me like I was asking if they had a unicorn equestrian team. Because he was like, what do you mean? And I looked at my mom, and I was like, did I say that right? Am I being clear? And. And he was like, just wear what you're comfortable in. He was so confused. And in that moment, I was just like, wait, other. Other ways of life exist?

Margi Dehlin [01:15:42] That's right.

Shelise Sola [01:15:43] Like, I'm not gonna be shamed here. And constantly called to the office and told to put the shame shirt on. It was such a paradigm shift for me. Everything just shattered in the way of. This is how you do things. It's. But there's options.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:59] That's right.

Shelise Sola [01:16:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:01] Different world.

Shelise Sola [01:16:02] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:02] Different rules.

Shelise Sola [01:16:03] And you know what's crazy? It's not crazy. In my mind, it was crazy that people didn't abuse that. Like, girls were coming to school in shorts. Yeah. But everyone was wearing respectable things. No one was distracted. So weird. Everyone had healthy relationships. Some girls were having sex with their boyfriends, and they were on birth control because that was the responsible thing to do. And it just. It shocked me because coming from my school, where there's like, 14 pregnancies a year, there were zero teen pregnancies. People valued their schoolwork.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] And yeah, Utah has some of the highest teen. As I. At least when I was paying attention to these numbers, Utah had some of the highest teen pregnancy rates in the country, as I understand.

Shelise Sola [01:16:49] It makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:50] Yeah, it does.

Shelise Sola [01:16:51] Because that's part of the purity culture, is you don't teach people about boundaries. You don't teach people about safe sex. You don't teach people about their menstrual cycle when you can actually get pregnant, or birth control. It's just. Don't do it. Abstinence only. And so you are just completely Left in the dark. And you don't know even about your own reproductive system.

Shelise Sola [01:17:09] And so I just remember being like, wow, this is so interesting that girls are wearing whatever they want and they're not being called sluts, and they have healthy relationships with other boys. And, I mean, the first time I even let someone touch me was my senior year of high school. Like, in any sort of sexual capacity other than kissing. And even then, I felt really guilty about it. But also, I was like, wait, this is what I've been missing.

Shelise Sola [01:17:35] So that's when things started to shift a little bit and my perspective started to change because I realized that that wasn't the only option and that people were existing outside of these rules in a healthy, happy way.

John Dehlin [01:17:48] So you didn't try and repent with, quote, repent with your bishop?

Shelise Sola [01:17:51] I didn't at that time, no. And I don't know, I also really didn't like that bishop. So I probably just didn't feel guilty enough, I guess. And I didn't feel comfortable enough with him. And I had grown into myself enough to know that I didn't need to do that, or at least I didn't feel like I needed.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:11] I am just loving that for you because it is. It's feeling like you're starting to have an experience of individuation away from the rules, away from the lens that. Yeah. You've been given.

Shelise Sola [01:18:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:25] A little self.

Shelise Sola [01:18:26] That little self. Well, I can't say it wouldn't have. It would have taken a lot longer to happen if I had still lived in Utah. It took me being plucked out of this environment and put into something totally different to understand and to see with my own eyes that people exist outside of this paradigm and that they're doing great. Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:46] It's that Truman show thing.

Shelise Sola [01:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:48] Yeah. That's great. Okay, so do we switch to Vegas now or.

Las Vegas, Sin Confessions, and a Difficult Marriage

Shelise Sola [01:18:52] Switch to Vegas?

John Dehlin [01:18:53] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:53] Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:18:54] How much time do we have?

John Dehlin [01:18:55] No, it's 15 in. We're doing 15.

Shelise Sola [01:18:57] Okay, good. I don't know if I'm, like, rambling too much.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:59] No.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] Good.

Shelise Sola [01:18:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] No, not at all.

Shelise Sola [01:19:01] So I get to Vegas, to Sin City, and, man, I said some cringe things when I lived there. Because at that point I was like, all right, guys, back on track. We're gonna find my celestial partner. We're gonna find my guy.

John Dehlin [01:19:14] There are a lot of Mormons in Vegas, and in fact, there's a Vegas temple, and Mormons helped settle Las Vegas

Shelise Sola [01:19:21] before the Mafia came in, Right?

John Dehlin [01:19:22] Yeah. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:19:23] And took over. So I used to tell people that

John Dehlin [01:19:25] it's quite a Mormon town, believe it or not.

Shelise Sola [01:19:26] I used to tell people that when they're like, you're moving to Vegas. And I'm like, actually, there's more Mormons here than there are in Utah. At least there were at the time. It's probably different now.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] I don't think that's true.

Shelise Sola [01:19:37] I don't think it was. But someone told me that and I clung to that, John, because I was like, I don't want people to think that I chose a sinful place to live. I want them to think that I went to a good place.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:47] We always need the justification to tie it back to.

Shelise Sola [01:19:51] Yes, this is one of the cringiest things I think I've ever said. And that's why we have T shirts. I'm sorry for what I said when I was in a cult, because I remember tying telling people on multiple occasions that there were so many Mormons in Utah because we needed to balance out the sin with the Saints. It's so embarrassing. I'm like, well, that's why God sent a bunch of Mormons to you. Or to Vegas, to Nevada. Sergeant.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] I missed it. Yes.

Shelise Sola [01:20:18] There are many Mormons in Vegas because they need to balance out the sin sin. And I. I was like, fully convicted that that was the case. Like, God has a plan, and it's to get rid of all these sinners.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] And really, it's just. The Mormons helped settle.

Shelise Sola [01:20:36] They did. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Nevada, adjacent to Utah and Arizona and Idaho.

Shelise Sola [01:20:41] And you could say that I was just living high on that superiority complex of being Mormon and being the best and like, one true church. You know, like, we're the people. And so I just. Yeah, I was feeling myself there. So when I get there, I'm fully invested in the singles award. I'm like, all right, time to find a husband and going to school full time. I'm teaching cheerleading at the time. So, like, very low key job and trying to, like, date around. The singles awards are so awkward because you know that you're there to meet a husband. Yeah. But also it's that whole dichotomy of but don't be too flirty. Don't date around too much because then you'll be seen as the slutty one of the ward. So you're trying to make that balance. You're trying to find someone.

John Dehlin [01:21:31] It's a total meat market. It really is just Mormon young adult singles wards are just freaking meat markets. I hated that part of byu.

Shelise Sola [01:21:41] Yeah. And also it's a point where I'm finally allowed in some capacity to be a sexual being. Not sexual being, a romantic being. Right? Where they're encouraging you to flirt, they're encouraging you to go on dates. And I'm like, ooh, this is fun. Cause before I had to in high school, it's like, repress, repress, repress.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:03] That's right.

Shelise Sola [01:22:03] I had boyfriends, but there are hard limits. And I remember being so excited to move out of the house because I just wanted to have a sleepover with a boyfriend. Literally, just fall asleep together was my

Margi Dehlin [01:22:14] only goal when I moved out to experience sleep together.

Shelise Sola [01:22:18] I just wanted to cuddle. It was so wholesome. Like, I just want to fall asleep with somebody. And so I was ready and I was fully invested in this dating process and ready to find a husband. And about a year in, I mean, I had had some dating experiences, had a couple boyfriends, a couple non Mormon boyfriends, which it didn't quite work out. And I'm like, it's probably because you're not dating the right guy. You know, you gotta find some. Someone who's spiritual like you.

Shelise Sola [01:22:46] And so about a year and I meet somebody and we start dating pretty seriously. He's definitely Mormon, I think now that I'm thinking about it, I can't remember if he also grew up in Utah or if he grew up in Vegas. Guess it doesn't really matter. But he came from a very Mormon family, so he got it and he got me.

Shelise Sola [01:23:07] And I'm thinking, this is it. This is my celestial spouse. And around that same time, I had gotten a job at Hard Rock Hotel as a lifeguard. And when I got the job, I was so pumped because I just wanted to be in the scene in some capacity. But I wasn't sinning because I was working. You know, I could be at the crazy parties with the alcohol and people having sex on the daybeds and stuff, but I wasn't participating, and so it didn't really count.

Shelise Sola [01:23:40] And even the moment where they gave me my uniform, it was a string bikini, like, very small. No lifeguard should be in a string bikini. Doesn't. No one's saving any lives in string bikinis. But I remember getting it from them, and I tried it on, and they're like, how does it fit? It was real small, and I got a big booty. And I'm like, is this the largest size you have?

Shelise Sola [01:24:05] And they're like, yep, that's it. And I'm like, okay, I guess it fits. So that was also a moment where I had to ask myself Are you okay with working here? Even though it took so much to get that job and it was a privilege to get that job. And I thought, well, it's just a uniform. Just like my dance costumes are just dance costumes and they didn't need sleeves. So I kind of justified it to myself, started working there again. I'm living in Vegas and I'm working at a day club, at a pool with half naked drunk people, super sexualized environment. And I'm just seeing the world with these brand new eyes.

Shelise Sola [01:24:46] And I'm 18, which is funny. But for the first time I'm like, whoa, this is how the world works. We didn't have alcohol in our house. My parents didn't drink as far as I was aware. So it was just a very new environment.

Shelise Sola [01:24:59] So I start dating this guy. We're together for about a year. Still haven't slept together, which I'm like, well done. I was so horny, John. I was like, I just want to have sex so bad. And I was one of those. It's like, we should just get married and we can just get it over with so that we can be together. Because I just wanted that self expression, right? I just wanted to enjoy him as a wife. And so at some point, you know, things are getting hot and heavy and he's like, oh, you give me a blowjob, that type of thing. And I was like, I don't know, are you sure?

Shelise Sola [01:25:35] Because I knew what it meant. And he's like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. And I mean, I wanted to. So I was like, okay.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] And this was a Mormon boy.

Shelise Sola [01:25:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:25:43] And immediately return missionary. Huh?

John Dehlin [01:25:45] Return missionary. Do you know?

Shelise Sola [01:25:46] You know what? I don't think he did go on a missionary.

John Dehlin [01:25:48] Okay, that's fine. I was just curious.

Shelise Sola [01:25:50] I think it was one of those things where again, I started to realize, oh, there are good guys who aren't returned missionaries. My standards started to go down, which is stupid because it's not even a standard. Like, who cares if you go on a mission or not? It's not a real thing. But I have to say that. So immediately after it's over, he's like, you know, we should really go tell the bishop about this. And I was like, ugh, like I asked you if you wanted to do it. It's like, either we break the rules and that's it, or we stick to the rules and we don't have to confess.

Shelise Sola [01:26:24] And he wanted to confess and that meant that I would have to go in and so he's like, yeah, I made an appointment with the bishop. And I'm like, great. When's mine? Like, I guess you. You probably set up my appointment, too.

Shelise Sola [01:26:38] So we go in. I think he went in before me. It's. It's not a Sunday, so no one's really there. The lights are off, which. The church has a very different kind of spooky feel when you're there. Not on a Sunday when no one else is there. It's just kind of like empty, deserted,

Margi Dehlin [01:26:56] like a ghost town.

Shelise Sola [01:26:58] And it definitely has a different feel when you're going there to repent. Right. And so I remember walking in with so much anxiety, and I think this is the second time that I've confessed a sexual sin. First time being going to do baptisms. And so I remember him. I remember giving him, like, a very vague explanation of what happened. Just like, all right, I'm just gonna put it on the table there.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] We went too far.

Shelise Sola [01:27:24] Yeah, we went too far. And he was just like, thank you for telling me this. Bishop Roulette was not in my favor. So he was very kind in his delivery, but the words were so, so piercing. And he said things like, you know, this is a very serious sin.

Shelise Sola [01:27:47] This is a sin next to murder. And I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna stop you there. Because we didn't have sex. And he goes, oral sex is sexually. And I was like, but it's not, though. It's really, really not. Because I was very proud to still be a virgin. And I was like, if I'm gonna get punished the same, I should have done the real thing, you know? And he was like, no, it is extremely unnatural. It is nowhere to be found in the Bible, which. It's funny, people in the comments have told me that it actually is in the Bible. I still don't know where, but Song

John Dehlin [01:28:23] of Solomon would be one candidate in the Old Testament. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:28:26] And so he was just going in on how dirty and gross I was for children.

John Dehlin [01:28:32] And you basically lost your virginity and you didn't even know it.

Shelise Sola [01:28:35] Exactly, exactly. And I pushed back a little bit. There was one point. Well, first, after telling me how awful I was, and he was telling me that, you know, maybe there's some things you need to be doing differently in your life. Maybe you need to make some changes. I know that you work on Sundays. And I was like, what does that have to do with anything? Because it was a requirement. This was called rehab. At the time where I worked, the day party was called Rehab. It was televised. It was a Sunday party.

Shelise Sola [01:29:08] I had to work on Sundays. But even so, I would beg everyone to let me leave a little bit early so that I could change while I was speeding down the freeway. Very unsafe. Don't recommend this. Speeding down the freeway while putting a dress over my swimsuit so that I can make it to the last hour of church. I was still committed. And I would take out my second piercing because I thought it was cute, and I put it back in when I would go to work, and then I would take it out when I would walk into the church building.

Shelise Sola [01:29:37] So he was like, I know that you work on Sunday. And I'm like, well, I have to. And he's like, well, maybe you should think about getting a different job. And then he starts attacking my character. You know, I really just don't think you're on the spiritual path. I don't think you're spiritual enough right now. I really think that you're a bad influence and you probably shouldn't be dating him, and you should probably break up with him. I'm like, I'm the bad influence. It was his idea. And I'm just getting all the blame and all the shame, and I'm thinking, where is it?

John Dehlin [01:30:06] But Mormon boys are taught that women are supposed to help keep them pure. Well, I think I should better say women are taught that they're the guardians of sexuality to help keep boys worthy to go on missions. Is that right? So maybe that's why it was.

Shelise Sola [01:30:24] So I was getting all the blame.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:26] The conditioning part of the conditioning part. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:30:30] So I'm getting all the blame, and I just feel like the worst person because I am trying so hard. Yes, I'm working in a place that a good Mormon probably shouldn't. Yes, I'm wearing shorts. I also live in 130 degree weather, and I'm gonna wear shorts and tank tops. But I didn't feel bad about it because at that point, I was coming into myself as a human and as a woman and being like, no, I'm gonna wear shorts and God's still gonna love me.

Shelise Sola [01:30:59] So. But I still hadn't tried alcohol. I still never smoked anything, still never drank coffee or tea. I was very steadfast on those rules. And it was just the things that made sense to me, like having some semblance of sexuality with someone who I wanted to marry. It wasn't even just a random person. We had been dating for a year. And so at this point, he. After putting all the blame on me, he pulls out his little book. And he's like, okay, well, all right, let's. We're gonna do a year without the temple and a few months without taking the sacrament. And I was like, wait, a year without the temple?

Shelise Sola [01:31:38] Isn't that the same punishment for intercourse? And he was like, well, yeah, but, you know, it was sex and I lost it. So I actually stood up to him for a minute and I was like, wait a second, aren't you supposed to pray about this? Because I was taught that the bishop is the connection to God. You tell him your sins, he goes and talks to God about it. God tells him what I should do to fix it. And he was like, are you questioning my authority? And I was like, yeah, I guess so.

Shelise Sola [01:32:09] Because a year sounds like a long time. And I didn't even get the good stuff. I didn't say it like that, but you get it. And so he was like, well, this is what it's going to be. And basically pushed back and said he wouldn't pray about it because I had sex and I needed to repent for a year.

Shelise Sola [01:32:27] And so I eventually backed down, left the room in tears, just feeling low as low can be. I can't believe that I messed up to this degree. I can't believe that I had followed all the rules. And if I were to die tomorrow, I'm a B student now. I'm not getting anywhere near the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] Yeah, you're in that terrestrial room now. You know, talking about the rooms of your youth. Object lesson activity. You've now moved from the celestial room down to the terrestrial room with like, sinners and non Mormons and those types of people.

Shelise Sola [01:33:06] And no chairs and empty carpeted walls.

John Dehlin [01:33:08] No, that's telestial.

Shelise Sola [01:33:09] Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. I'm in the middle one with the plants. Right. And so I remember getting on the phone immediately, before I even left the parking lot, I called my mom and I was like, mom, I messed up. I'm the worst sinner. I am not spiritual enough. And she was very mad.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] She at you or the bishop?

Shelise Sola [01:33:32] At the bishop.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:33:34] She was visibly upset in the way that her tone was on the phone. She's like, what do you mean you're not spiritual enough? You're more spiritual than I am. You're. You know, because again, I was the. The poster child for Mormonism of our family. I was the one who followed it the most. And she's like, what do you mean? Why did he say that to you? I mean, I know now I think I learned at our first. First interview we did together that that was a rule in the 80s that you couldn't have oral sex even with your married spouse.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] Yeah. For like nine months. The Mormon prophet came out with a memo, told the whole church, no oral sex. And there was so much of an outcry that he rescinded it within, like, nine to 12 months and took it back.

Shelise Sola [01:34:15] Yeah. So I think that's where the bishop got it from. And maybe his wife missed the memo. And he had been living by that rule ever since, and so he thought to punish me the same way. So she was very upset, and she was like, that is not true. You're amazing and you're so spiritual. Because I was praying every night, I was reading my scriptures, was doing all the things except that.

Shelise Sola [01:34:39] So at that point, I went home and I was like, huh, maybe I'm not the problem. What if the church was the problem? For the first time ever, I thought, what if all this is for nothing? And what if I don't have to feel this way? And so I went back to our good old friend Google, and I was like, okay, let's see what the Internet has to say now. Because it had been maybe a year and a half or so. I had remembered what my friend had said, planted the seeds. And at this point, I had already lost everything. Right. I was already failing the class of Mormonism, and so I may as well just research with an open mind.

Shelise Sola [01:35:19] And so that's what I did. And that's when I came across the first vision discrepancies. There were multiple first visions. The church doesn't even use the first or the last. They just picked one for Joseph Smith from Joseph Smith.

Shelise Sola [01:35:33] And I learned about all of the wives he had and how some of them were underage. I learned about the Book of Abraham and how it was a funerary text and he didn't translate anything. He just. Just made it up.

Shelise Sola [01:35:46] And at that point, I was like, oh, well, if he made that up, he probably made the rest up. And that was enough for me to just stop digging. And I was like, oh, all of this is a sham. I don't have to feel guilty anymore. And some people may say you just left because you wanted to sin. Obviously, it's obvious you just wanted to sin.

Shelise Sola [01:36:08] No, I left. I was led to the information because I didn't want to feel like the scum of the earth. But I left because I found out it wasn't true. And so that's where I was.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] How old are you?

Shelise Sola [01:36:21] I was about 20 or 21.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] And this would have been around 2010.

Shelise Sola [01:36:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] 2011, something like that. That's kind of young, as a Mormon, to figure out the church isn't true. I didn't figure it out till I was 31.

Shelise Sola [01:36:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:35] And I'm, I'm ahead of the curve. You know what I mean?

Shelise Sola [01:36:38] Yeah. If I wouldn't have been pushed to that breaking point emotionally, I never would have sought it out because I had been pushed already. As we've talked about, I had been shamed before. It wasn't anything new. But to this extent, to this level, someone was like, maybe you should thank that bishop. Maybe, maybe I should thank him for pushing me to that breaking point. Maybe I should thank my ex boyfriend for forcing me, not forcing me, for allowing me to do sinful things, because here we are. And it allowed me to really come into myself. And that was a huge, huge fork in the road for me.

John Dehlin [01:37:15] I have to just, I always, my listeners and viewers reach out and say, there's no such thing as an underage wife. That's called child, child abuse. Right. That's called rape. Or like, like when we Refer to Joseph's 14 year old quote wives, they're like, that's not a wife, that's child abuse. Is that fair? I'm not correcting you.

Shelise Sola [01:37:34] No, I think it's fair to say. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] Yeah. Anyway, had to. So, you know, 2021, that's a bold thing to conclude. The church isn't true, especially when your parents are still believing it. Siblings probably are still believing at that point. Few people do that.

Shelise Sola [01:37:56] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:56] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:37:56] So this is the funny thing about that, about the immediate family thing. So my brothers were kind of in and out of it. They would go, but mostly because my mom wanted them to, but then when they would go stay with their dad, they're like, cool. We don't have to do the Mormon thing for however long they were with him over the summer or whatever. And so my brothers, I remember, I don't know if I spoke to them about it. I feel like I spoke to one of them and told him, you know, I'm trying to repent because I'm not spiritual enough. And he literally laughed and was like, you're joking, right?

Shelise Sola [01:38:28] Because you, my little sister, the one who does everything right, you're not spiritual enough, then what am I? You know? And so it was the little comments like that, the supportive comments of, you know, knocking me out of the matrix a little bit to be like, no Shalice, that's actually not truth.

Shelise Sola [01:38:48] I Think that's what helped me recognize maybe they're right. So I went to my mom when I found all this information, and I was like, mom, did you know about the Book of Abraham? Did you know about all the things I just mentioned? And she was like, no, let me take it to my bishop and let me see if I can find these answers for you. And so she started off on her own journey. I didn't know I tipped the first domino that led to her faith crisis because she had gone to her bishop and her bishop was like. And then he's like, let me take it to the stake president.

Coming Out of the Church and Finding Freedom

Shelise Sola [01:39:20] And he was like, I don't know. You just gotta have faith. And she's like, that doesn't work. Again, my mom's very type A and she's like, I need to go back to my daughter with these answers in bullet points.

Shelise Sola [01:39:33] And she didn't have them. And so she was feeling a little bit like a failure, like she couldn't answer my questions. And so a few months later, I wanna say maybe eight months later, her and my dad called me on the phone together. And they were like, we have something to tell you. I'm like, all right, what's going on? Well, we just wanna let you know that we haven't really been going to church. Took off our garments and we're just kind of distancing ourselves. But if you wanna get married in the temple, we'll do whatever it takes to be at your wedding. They were terrified that I was still in and they had the coming out call to me and I was like, oh, no, you're good.

Shelise Sola [01:40:13] Like, I'm out. And they were like, oh, they were so relieved. And I found out just the other day when we recorded with my mom for our channel, when she said that I'll do whatever it takes to be at the temple, I fully thought she meant, I'll go back to church, I'll put my garments on, I'll stop drinking, whatever. And she's like, oh, no, I was just planning on lying. I was like, what?

John Dehlin [01:40:34] What?

Shelise Sola [01:40:35] I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [01:40:38] Really quickly, this would have been before the CES letter and before the gospel topics essays. So I'm curious what sources of information, if you even remember?

Shelise Sola [01:40:46] Oh, man, I have no idea.

John Dehlin [01:40:49] That's fine.

Shelise Sola [01:40:49] I just remember I would find something, then I would start to Google that, and then that would lead me to Googling another thing. And I started maybe at like 3pm and didn't stop until the sun came up the next day. It was hours of Sitting on my computer trying to figure this out.

John Dehlin [01:41:07] I know Mormonthink was around by that point. Which was a predecessor to CES Letter.

Shelise Sola [01:41:12] Yeah, Yeah. I don't know where I found the information, but it definitely felt more credible than that weird, sketchy website with the temple ritual. And especially when I would cross reference to other places and it was all saying the same thing. And so I even took that little binder of highlighted information to the second counselor because obviously I hated the bishop.

Shelise Sola [01:41:31] And I was like, hey, can you help me with all this? He was a lawyer, very smart, loved him. He's just a wonderful human being. And he just sat there and smiled and listened to me rant all about all this information.

Shelise Sola [01:41:45] And then at the end, he just smiled and was like, you know, those are all great questions. We don't have all of the answers. We just, you know, we have to have faith. But the way he said it, I was like, I feel like he knows. I feel like he is fully aware of all this information, but he doesn't want to be the one to break my shelf. He doesn't want to be the one to tell me, but he's willing to listen. Because not once was he like, oh, that's just ex Mormon propaganda. He was just very kind about it. And so in my head, I was like, he knows. I'll write him out.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] Wow. Wow. And so you're in Sin City, you're in Vegas. You've left the church, and now your parents have left the church. But you weren't raised to, like, know what to do at that point. You weren't given proper sexual health education, sex education. You weren't raised to think about how to become a career woman because you had been raised to become a Mormon mom. Right. So I just, like, I don't know what I would have done if I found myself at 21, having been raised Mormon, and I found myself in Vegas, of all places.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:57] Like, how did it. I'm curious, how did it feel for you in that moment? Were you, like, freedom?

John Dehlin [01:43:04] Were you tired of more liberation?

Shelise Sola [01:43:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:06] Or was it overwhelm? Or was it, like, a lot of things? But what did it feel like for you to have that blueprint, that highly controlled what you're going to be doing

Shelise Sola [01:43:17] for, you know, for.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:19] To have it just kind of disintegrate

John Dehlin [01:43:21] in the middle of Vegas?

Shelise Sola [01:43:22] Yeah, so many things. Kind of all of the things. The first being relief that I didn't have to feel ashamed of myself, my body, my clothes anymore. That was fun. I was like, oh, man, I can wear this and not even feel bad about it. And that's the funny thing is it's not like I was walking around in bikinis. Like, in my day to day life, I'm wearing respectable clothing and now I can feel okay about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:50] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:43:51] And so I remember just feeling very liberated in my identity, being able to fully express myself without feeling bad about it. I was also terrified of the big bad world and like, okay, I gotta be careful. So there were a lot of things that I stuck to for years.

Shelise Sola [01:44:11] So I was still determined to be a virgin when I got married. I was determined to never drink alcohol because I'm like, these clowns at this day party. I'm watching them getting taken out in stretchers because of dehydration and they're losing all their money. And obviously that's not the case for everyone who drinks. But I'm seeing the most extreme example and thinking, well, I made it this far. Why try it? So I stuck with that. Same with alcohol and drugs. I'm like, nope. I was still very much in the mindset of, if you do drugs, you will die, so you will get addicted and die.

Shelise Sola [01:44:47] So I was terrified of that. But I did want to start openly dating. And I knew that I didn't want to date someone who was Mormon because they no longer held the same values as me. And I wanted to see what was out there. So I did start dating this one guy, and unfortunately it was a situation where he did take my virginity. And it wasn't consensual.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] You were assaulted?

Shelise Sola [01:45:14] Basically, yes. But it was, it was very confusing because it was in the moment. It was like a hot and heavy moment. Like I wanted it, but obviously I'm like, no, no, no, pushing away. It happened anyway. So I was very confused. Like, I never considered it rape, but I think ultimately it was because immediately after it happened, I cried. And he's like, what happened? And I was like, I told you that I wanted to wait until I was married. And you didn't respect that. And so that came crashing down pretty quickly. That was probably like not even a year after leaving. And so immediately I'm like, well, that's what I get for leaving the church, for dating someone who not Mormon is. This is how I'm treated and this is what happens.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] You feel like you deserved it based on your conditioning.

Shelise Sola [01:46:04] I quote, asked for it because of my bad decisions. So once that went out the window, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah, it is a bummer. And then on the other hand, though, when that went out the window. And I allowed myself to let go of the guilt and the shame around sexuality. That's when I really flourished as far as my relationships. And I was like, oh, this can be beautiful. This can be amazing. It can be spiritual, right? And I stopped demonizing sex in that way. I wouldn't say I overcorrected, at least not at that point. I mean, there was definitely a point in my life where I was being way too promiscuous, but at that point, I was still fairly reined in.

Shelise Sola [01:46:47] It was only with boyfriends, people who I loved, whom I wanted to be with, and. And so that door had kind of got blasted wide open. As far as the other things, though spirituality was very intrigued in the afterlife, I still was convinced that there's something after we die. I had had many ghost stories. Many experiences happened to me ever since I was a kid. As far as, like, there was even one moment that I still vividly remember, I must have only been four years old, where I fell off a bunk bed. It was really, really high, and I didn't hit the ground. I was, like, lowered to the ground and very gently placed on the ground.

Shelise Sola [01:47:31] And in that moment, I was like, oh, what just happened was on my guardian angel. Wild stuff like that, where I was like, there's definitely an afterlife, and I don't want to throw everything out. I had to figure out what I wanted to believe. As far as Jesus goes, do I still want to be Christian? I don't really know how to navigate that. And I kind of put that off to the side for a bit and just focused on spirituality and focused on who I could be as a person that would be productive to society, that would be useful to other people. As far as being a good friend, being a good daughter, being a good girlfriend, and not causing harm.

Shelise Sola [01:48:11] All the same values that you learn in Mormonism without all the guilt and the shame and the fear of eternal salvation or not. And so I went that direction and I moved to London to do a study abroad, and that was my final semester.

Shelise Sola [01:48:28] And then I came back and within two weeks moved to la. So my Vegas experience was very much tied up in singles award. A lot of guilt and shame and a lot of transformation that ended in ultimately figuring out who I wanted to become, which was still, like, I still wanted to be an actress. I still wanted to do costume design for film. And thank goodness I got out of that relationship with the guy with the bishop, because he admitted to me later, he was like, yeah, I know you wanted to be an actress, but My plans were to just marry you and turn you into a housewife.

Shelise Sola [01:49:06] He literally told me that he was just planning on crushing all my dreams if we got married. And so I'm like, wow, phew, bullet dodged.

John Dehlin [01:49:13] The ex boyfriend.

Shelise Sola [01:49:14] The ex boyfriend, yeah. Who we messed up with. And so my mom was also grateful because she was like, oh, good. She didn't get married at 19 because she didn't want that for me. She was very aware of her own life and how it had turned out. And she loves all of her kids, obviously, and I don't think she would have changed anything, but she didn't want that for me. She wanted me to go have the Hollywood lifestyle. She wanted me to make it in film. She wanted me to do the career thing and then have kids when I'm ready, not because I just want to have sex and need to get married quickly.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:51] Do you feel like you were able to also look at do I want to marry, do I want to have kids? And some of those non negotiable, just right from Mormonism, where it's like, not even a choice. You just. Were you able to kind of look at that as well and say, do I want that?

Shelise Sola [01:50:10] Right. I think if I. If I were to analyze my mindset at the time, I still very much wanted to be a mom. I still really valued what it would be like if I were to have the family unit, get married and have kids. And I think a lot of that has to do with being so close to my mom and knowing that I wanted that for myself and knowing that I innately had this desire to nurture, but I also knew, but it's gonna happen after I get famous or it's gonna happen after I feel fulfilled.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:46] So you wanted time?

Shelise Sola [01:50:47] I wanted time, yeah. And that was the first time that I allowed myself to have that option. Because before it was, no, you need to get married now, because that's what God wants.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:57] Absolutely.

Shelise Sola [01:50:58] And I wanted to have sex.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:00] Absolutely.

Shelise Sola [01:51:01] So for the first time, I'm like, okay, well, at least there's not that roadblock. At least I can explore sexuality before I get married and I don't have to feel rushed into it and I can explore my career and explore the world. Los Angeles is like ten worlds in one, I feel like.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:19] Right.

Shelise Sola [01:51:20] And so it was just a really great thing to move there and to feel liberated. But also I was still giving myself some safe parameters to live within. I even went to the singles ward because I wanted to make friends. I didn't know anyone when I moved to la. And so I went there as a non believer. As a non believer. But in maybe like three Sundays, I remember very distinctly sitting in a class and it was. It's not called Relief Society when it's a singles award, but when all the girls are together, I think it is. Is it?

John Dehlin [01:51:54] I think it is.

Shelise Sola [01:51:55] Okay, so do you know, is it called Relief Society?

John Dehlin [01:51:58] It's really Society, yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:51:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:52:00] So I remember sitting there and the whole lesson was about chastity and the temple and all the things you had to do to be worthy. And people were standing up and like, I testify that you need to be modest and you need to. And all the things that I already let go of in that moment. I was like, they sound crazy. And it was the first time that I actually heard it for what it was without the indoctrination. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I was furious. And I almost stood up and walked out. And I was like, yeah, I'm never going back.

Shelise Sola [01:52:35] What was I even thinking to try and. Yes, I need to make friends, but why would I make friends in a place that I just left? It didn't make any sense. So then began the journey of just living my life, trying to book commercials and get into acting and doing odd jobs here and there. I was the Michelin man once. Like, the little. The. The tire guy was in one of those suits randomly at an event. I was in this, like, crazy. I was in reality shows.

Shelise Sola [01:53:06] I did Millionaire Matchmaker, and they loved telling that story of like, oh, the Mormon girl from Utah is trying to settle down with a nice guy. And I'm like, not Mormon. But, yeah, I want to win the show.

Shelise Sola [01:53:20] So I did end up getting the official date with a millionaire, and he ended up being very odd. So that didn't work out, unfortunately, no. Unfortunately.

Reality TV, Relationships, and Post-Mormon Life

John Dehlin [01:53:29] What was the show you had me watch recently, Margaret?

Shelise Sola [01:53:31] I think it's that Millionaire Matchmaker. I feel like many seasons there's like 20 something. It's crazy with Patty.

John Dehlin [01:53:37] Okay, so we watched a couple episodes.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:39] Oh, my gosh. We know what you're talking about.

John Dehlin [01:53:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:41] We were like, is this real?

Shelise Sola [01:53:43] John was like, I don't think this is real. I can tell you all about.

John Dehlin [01:53:46] Do you remember what season you were on?

Shelise Sola [01:53:48] Season six. Episode six.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:49] We want to look you up now.

Shelise Sola [01:53:51] So creepy.

John Dehlin [01:53:52] We got.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:53:52] Julie is going to put a link to that in the show notes.

Shelise Sola [01:53:54] Oh, my gosh. You guys are going to laugh. So I can give you some insider on that.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] So, Julie. Yeah. Explain people the basic premise.

Shelise Sola [01:54:02] Yeah. So millionaire matchmaker Patty Stenger finds these he's quote, millionaires. Which, by the way, we're in the car together, me and the guy going to a date, and the cameras weren't rolling and they were super mad that we had conversations off camera. But he was like, yeah, it's so weird. They didn't even check my bank account. Like, no one even verified if I was a millionaire.

John Dehlin [01:54:21] Worth 4 million. Yeah, worth 5 million.

Shelise Sola [01:54:24] And he was basically telling me he wasn't a millionaire. And I was like, bro, this isn't helping you. So Patty finds these millionaires who are struggling to get love and, you know, they need help and they need to be reworked.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:37] It's really hard.

Shelise Sola [01:54:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:38] Having all the money, it's always the worst.

Shelise Sola [01:54:42] And so this guy, this guy in particular, he. They said he was like a country guy. And I found this through Actors Access or LA casting. One of the actors websites, they were casting actors for it. And, you know, they were casting, quote, real people is what they put on the listing. Casting real people to date millionaires. And so I auditioned for it and when I went into the casting, I was able to get it out of the casting director that he was just like a small town country guy. And I was like, oh, got it. I can be the country girl. I grew up in Utah.

Shelise Sola [01:55:15] And so I remember showing up to the. It's like the round where Patty picks who's gonna be good. And I had on like this very country outfit and like feather earrings and like, I think it was a flowery dress with maybe even cowboy boots, I don't know. But in the thing, she was like, if you can lose this whole whatever cowgirl thing is and show up in a tight, sexy black dress, then you can come.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:41] That's script.

Shelise Sola [01:55:43] Yeah, that's what she says every. The funny thing about that is I totally had clothes that were tight and sexy, but I thought that he wanted a cowgirl, so I went as a cowgirl. So anyway, do the whole thing. And it was real in the sense that the dates were real. I even asked him later, I'm like, did they tell you to pick me or did you just want to? And he was like, no. They were kind of pushing me to pick some other girl, but I. You told him no and I wanted to pick you, so I guess that part's real.

Shelise Sola [01:56:13] But the whole. The mixer that they have where the millionaire meets all of the girls at one time, that was at like 10am and they had colored water in people's glasses because no one's drinking at 10:00am Interesting. It was supposed to be 6, 7:00pm or something. And we were there all day just waiting for this speed dating round.

Shelise Sola [01:56:35] And if you're wondering, Patty was not sociable to any of us. The second the camera stopped rolling, she was off the set, like, did it.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:41] That feels like it would be so,

Shelise Sola [01:56:43] like a Patty thing. Yeah, she seemed over it. She was just like, oh, here we go. Yeah, one more thing. The funny thing is, though, the guy who I was dating, they did a good job of cleaning him up and making him a gentleman. And when I found out later that he did the wrestling that was the super fakie. All scripted, very silly wrestling. I'm like, oh, yeah, I never would have dated him.

John Dehlin [01:57:07] Oh, he's one of those WWF or whatever.

Shelise Sola [01:57:11] But it wasn't even. It was. I don't know, I don't want to rag on him. But it was very silly wrestling. Very, very scripted. No athleticism really involved. And so afterwards we did go on a date and, like, off camera, and it didn't work out. He wanted me to go to his hotel room. I went up there and then he was like, do you want to stay the night? And I was like, oh, no, thanks, I'm gonna go home. And he got so mad that I didn't want to stay the night. And he was like, I knew you never liked me. If I knew you were an actor, I never would have picked you.

Shelise Sola [01:57:44] And just, like, went in hard on my character. And then the next day was like, so, do you want to see each other again? I'm like, bro, what are you talking about? It was very wild. I think he may have had some sort of personality disorder. Like split personality. Not split personality, bipolar. Because he was very back and forth in the text messages.

Shelise Sola [01:58:03] So at the end of it, it goes. He's still trying to get a date with Shalisa's dad because they actually had him call my dad on the show, which was a redo, because it happened in the car when they weren't filming. And then they're like, why did you do that? So then they had us redo it at the dinner date. So if you watch it now, you know all the secrets.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:21] Ooh, we got the behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [01:58:25] So, like, we could probably do our own episode on just making it in la. I've got a few friends that have tried to, you know, become actors or actresses in la. And that's. I mean, that's the real world. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:39] That's formidable. That is a formidable.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] But just, Just as far as your Mormon story goes, you know. I know. I mean, we're gonna have for sure, Julia put a link to your wedding video.

Shelise Sola [01:58:54] Oh, sure.

John Dehlin [01:58:54] Because it's so amazing. You and Jonathan recently got married and you guys filmed this incredible dance sequence that's, like, viral worthy, so we'll make sure to include that. But you're married now and you have a kid. What do you want us to do as we're kind of like closing out your Mormon story? You've built this beautiful life now you've got a successful YouTube channel that talks about cults, from Cults to Consciousness that's going to be passing Mormon stories up for sure in the next year. And I'm thrilled about that, by the way. But what are, you know, is there any additional healing and growth that you want to share with people who do leave the church in their teens or early twenties and want to find joy in healthy relationships? Any other parts of your story you want to share?

Healing from Trauma Through Ayahuasca and Psychedelics

Shelise Sola [01:59:45] Yeah. So my story does take a turn before it gets great again. And I think that it's really important for people to know that it's never linear. That healing can go up and up and up and up, and then it can take a real deep dive, and then it can go up again and it can spiral and loop and do all crazy things and not to be discouraged when that happens, because it's very common and that's life.

Shelise Sola [02:00:11] So I would say, let's see, it would have been around 2017. I started to have these memories come back of my childhood. And it was stuff that I had just completely blocked out, I think, for the safety of my psyche.

Shelise Sola [02:00:29] And they were tied to nightmares that I had been having immediately after leaving the Mormon church and leaving the house. So I'm in my own apartment. I think I'm away from any sort of threat, and my body starts trying to tell me that something is wrong and I need to address something. And I'm having these horrible, horrible nightmares about being chased and raped by a family member and a very close family member, none of my siblings.

Shelise Sola [02:01:03] And I would wake up just, like, crying hysterically and sweating and trying to figure out why I'm having these dreams. And so when these memories come up and I realize, oh, my gosh, something actually did happen and my psyche was trying to tell me something, I realized I needed to confront this person.

Shelise Sola [02:01:24] And when I did, it was, well, I don't remember all of it, but here are the things that I do remember happening. And the way it was presented was so nonchalant. And so he could have been telling me how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. That I was just like, wow, if this is true, the rest has to be true. And it felt like my whole life just kind of came out from under my feet. And because I had been doing well, I had sustained myself in Hollywood. Hollywood is not cheap. I was working all these random weird jobs, doing reality shows, working a few small commercials, nothing major, but like, I was getting there.

Shelise Sola [02:02:13] I was doing something. I had been working in tv. You know, I had my first TV job as a coffee and everything just kind of was like a rug pull moment. And at that time, I was dating somebody who had lived in Hawaii. He was in the military. I was going back and forth. So a long distance relationship. I remember telling him about it. He wasn't really at a place in his life where he could emotionally support me. So we broke up. So now I am single. After, I think we were together about two years, I end up moving into this apartment where the owner was very controlling and manipulative.

Shelise Sola [02:02:57] He was like, you can only have women over. He lived in the house. It was a house, not an apartment. He said, you can have women over, but you can't have men over. Unless it's to have a threesome with me.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] What?

Shelise Sola [02:03:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:09] Oh.

Shelise Sola [02:03:09] And he said, he said, and there's so much more to that story. But like, who's got the time? But yeah. And then I found myself in this other extremely abusive, toxic relationship, very, very common. After leaving a high demand group, finding like a very patriarchal, narcissistic man who tells you what to do, how to act, who to be. And I really just fell right into it. And it's. I don't want to say it's embarrassing, but it is because I tell people on my show all the time, like, don't be ashamed. We all miss signs and things. When you're. When you're growing up in a cult and then you leave and you tend to fall into that same trap.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:50] That's right. So it's familiar. Right?

Shelise Sola [02:03:52] It was familiar. And so I was living with this narcissistic man. And then I was kind of dating this other controlling narcissistic man who had been in my past before and reemerged right as soon as I broke up with this other guy and was like, I'll save you. But he was taking me down a really dangerous path. Found out he had been. This is all happening at the same time. Found out he had been dating four or five other women simultaneously and didn't tell me so like, he was telling me we were exclusive. We clearly weren't. Everyone knew except me. Like people in our social circles knew and they thought that I knew and I was just fine with it.

Shelise Sola [02:04:34] So I'm feeling the guilt and the shame with that. Like, oh, people think that I am a slut. Like, here's all these, these emotions coming up where I've tried so hard to be the good girl and be in solid relationships and now people are seeing me as the person who is just sexually promiscuous and all of that. So then that happens. Find out about the infidelity. Then the guy who I was living with, the landlord, he was like being so controlling and I was like, hey, I need to move out.

Shelise Sola [02:05:06] And it was a situation where I think he had a full month of security deposit and he wanted me to pay rent for the next month. But I knew I was leaving and I was like, hey, instead of me paying you this, I'm just not going to pay anything. That will be my security deposit that I get back. Because I was there for three weeks, I think three weeks that I lived there. And he was like, no, you need to pay me or you need to move like immediately.

Shelise Sola [02:05:35] And so I basically had 12 hours notice to get all of my stuff out of there, move into a storage unit. And then I was homeless. So all of this happening after I had just confronted this family member and got confirmation that I was sexually abused as a child from 6 months old to 8 years old. And everything is just falling around me.

Shelise Sola [02:06:02] And I'm couch surfing from place to place trying to figure out where I'm gonna live. Someone invites me to go on vacation. I'm like, great, that gives me five days where I don't have to sleep in my car.

Shelise Sola [02:06:16] And I'm just trying to put the pieces together of what's going on. Thankfully, I have the full support of my mom. She was incredible. She believed me every step of the way. Distanced herself immediately from this person and had my back and whatever you need. Same with my brothers.

Shelise Sola [02:06:36] And I was just at a point where I could not take anything else. Yeah, I couldn't think about pressing charges. I couldn't think about going through a court system. We had him on recording admitting to some things, but. But is that enough proof? Would that work? Is that something I can even entertain right now? I don't even have a house.

Shelise Sola [02:06:59] And so I find myself in this apartment. It was like a sublease. I'm like, okay, at least I can stay there for a little bit. I'M trying to find my footing. And at that point, I was like, I'm just gonna pretend it didn't happen.

Shelise Sola [02:07:12] I'm slowly dipping into this deep depression. But I was thriving with my acting work because I don't know if the weight loss was related, probably. I got really thin, I got really fit. I was going to the gym, like, four or five times a week.

Shelise Sola [02:07:30] Salsa dancing was a huge part of my life. Still is, except it's kind of hard while you're pregnant. But I was going salsa dancing four or five times a week and just being out, living my best life or trying to. And so I started booking commercials, like, big ones, where I'm like, oh, my gosh. I just booked Barbie. That's like a childhood dream. I just booked Qdoba.

Shelise Sola [02:07:54] All of these big major companies. And so I'm like, I'm fine. Everything's fine. I'm just not. I don't need to address anything. Everything's great. And not realizing I'm just getting super depressed. My social media is thriving. I'm getting that acknowledgement. But it's also superficial because it's all based on the bikini girl in la and people loved that.

Shelise Sola [02:08:20] So I'm getting the validation, the empty validation of all the likes of the. I probably hit 100,000 followers at that point, doing all the influencer stuff and working as an actor. I'm like a working actor. You know, I did it and working on TV shows at the same time, doing the sewing and costuming. Meanwhile, there is this dark cloud that's just over my head, and I didn't realize it was eating me away.

Shelise Sola [02:08:50] So I would say it took about a year, Like a. Probably a full year, where I got into my promiscuous side. I'm like, well, I'm not dating anyone. I can just have sex with whoever. And overcorrected in that way, which I think was me trying to be in control of my sexuality instead of letting other people control my sexuality, which makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:18] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:09:19] But I did overcorrect. You know, I'll admit it.

John Dehlin [02:09:23] You may have put yourself in unsafe.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:25] Yeah. What do you mean when you say that? Just so.

Shelise Sola [02:09:27] Yeah. So. Well, before, I was very much. I'm not gonna sleep with you unless we're dating. Like, we're together. And so I'm gonna give myself to you in that way.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:35] Okay.

Shelise Sola [02:09:35] And then when I. When all this happened, and I'm kind of like, no, I'm gonna embrace my sexuality. I'm gonna do this, gonna do that, and sleeping with people Not a ton of one night stands, but yeah, just sleeping with people who didn't really matter to me because I was like, I'm just gonna have a sexual experience and that's it.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:55] Okay, so it felt less honoring to you or less like what you value in the experience?

Shelise Sola [02:10:01] Yes, because before that I was very much on the path of sex. Is it can be sacred with the right person and it can be a spiritual experience to. I'm just gonna try this because I can, and I want to, which can also be fine. But I think I probably went a little, maybe a little too far and maybe not. I don't know who's to say what's normal.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:24] Right, Right.

Shelise Sola [02:10:26] And so about a year later, I realized, okay, I need some help. I need to figure this out. And I started putting out the call, if you will, to the universe, God, whoever's listening, because I still hadn't really found a solid spiritual basis yet. I was just kind of floating around doing what felt right, which was fine for the time. And I came across people who were talking about spiritual experiences and psychedelics. And at first I was like, this is crazy. If you do drugs, you will get addicted and die. And eventually.

John Dehlin [02:11:03] How many years ago was this? Just for the timeline. I love timelines.

Shelise Sola [02:11:05] This would be 2018.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:07] Okay, okay.

John Dehlin [02:11:09] So about six years ago. Okay, great.

Shelise Sola [02:11:12] So I'd already been out of the church for quite a while, but I was still very much in the mindset of don't do anything that will alter your consciousness. I still hadn't tried alcohol at this point.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] Wow.

Shelise Sola [02:11:21] Still haven't smoked weed.

John Dehlin [02:11:22] Oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:11:23] Okay. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:11:24] And so I. I go home and I find this documentary. It was like, recommended for you, and it was all about ayahuasca. And for those who aren't familiar, it's this. They call it a plant medicine in Peru, originated in Peru, and in the Amazon jungles of that area.

Shelise Sola [02:11:42] It's been used for hundreds of years. They say before written language even existed. These tribes put this vine and this leaf together, created this tea. And it has these psychoactive benefits that are supposed to detox your body, detox your mind. They're like, it's seven years of therapy in one session. And here I am looking for therapy and going, that sounds great. Let's take that path. That sounds like a quick path. And it didn't take me much to realize it could be beneficial. And maybe I was viewing all of these substances wrong. Maybe I had the wrong idea about what everyone would blanket as drugs. And so the funniest Thing happened right after I watched that interview.

Shelise Sola [02:12:28] I remembered this casting that I had submitted myself to. So if you're not familiar with how it works in acting, they. You put yourself on these boards, your headshots, your resume, and then you get submission notifications. So that'll say, looking for a woman who's in this age range and this ethnicity, and this is the role. And then if you have an agent, they submit you. But you can also submit yourself to things that maybe agents wouldn't submit to because it's a lower pay, but you'll get the experience.

Shelise Sola [02:12:59] So I remembered this submission, and it had said, looking for a man and a woman to go to Peru to do yoga, to do sound baths, to help promote this yoga center or this center. And I was like, huh? Also, why did that pop into my mind? You know, it was very odd.

Shelise Sola [02:13:20] So I went and looked at the casting, and it had been closed, meaning I did not get an audition. I was too late. But the title of it was called Arcana, and I was like, let's just see if I can find anything about this place. So I Google Arcana Peru, and it's an ayahuasca retreat center. I was like, what? What are the odds? And so I knew after looking at the website, after reading through how ayahuasca worked and how it could release deep trauma and how it could even help you remember certain things from your past and let them go, I was like, this is where I need to go.

Shelise Sola [02:13:54] But it was very expensive, and I didn't have money. Remember, I was just homeless not that long ago. And so I remember saying to the. To the website, I was like, just give me a little bit and I'll be there. I'm going to be there. And so I was like, you know what? Maybe I could just email the center directly. And so I did. I sent this email about how I was perfect for this role that they were casting. And the next day, I'm at the gym, of course, and I get a call from the casting director, and he's like, hey, so I got your email.

Shelise Sola [02:14:27] The owner forwarded it to me. It was very forward and kind of like, you shouldn't have done that. Because it was like, that's not how it works in Hollywood. You're not supposed to bypass all the levels of authority.

Shelise Sola [02:14:42] And he's like, but I understand why you did it. After I read it. And he goes, I was opening my computer to book somebody when the owner sent me your email. And I knew that I needed to at least meet with You? I was like, yes. So I met him the next day for coffee and I told him my story. And I was like, look, I really need this. I need to release this trauma. I need to get back to baseline. I need it. And four days later, I was on a plane to Peru.

John Dehlin [02:15:14] You got the gig.

Shelise Sola [02:15:15] I got the gig.

John Dehlin [02:15:18] And so your first psychedelic experience was part of a reality TV show?

Shelise Sola [02:15:22] It wasn't a reality show. So what it was, they just needed footage of people in the center to promote the center.

John Dehlin [02:15:28] Got it. So it was promotional commercial footage.

Shelise Sola [02:15:32] Yeah. And social media footage, like B roll stuff or mostly. And testimonial.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] Okay.

Shelise Sola [02:15:37] And so they wanted someone who would go and experience the retreat as a real person.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] Okay, got it.

Shelise Sola [02:15:43] But they wanted an actor because then we knew how to work with the cameras and, you know, communicate effectively. Yeah. And so I was just gifted, actually. I was paid to go and do this therapy, and it was incredible. And I know we don't have a lot of time to, like, go into this and we don't need to. I did an entire episode on it on my channel. But the main takeaways.

John Dehlin [02:16:08] What's the episode called?

Margi Dehlin [02:16:09] Yeah, we could link to that.

Shelise Sola [02:16:10] What's the episode called?

John Dehlin [02:16:13] And he's not mic'd up. So. Okay.

Shelise Sola [02:16:14] I think it's how ayahuasca changed my life.

John Dehlin [02:16:16] Okay.

Shelise Sola [02:16:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:18] In ayahuasca, I think it's spelled A, Y, A H, U, A S C A. Is that right?

Shelise Sola [02:16:25] That sounds right.

John Dehlin [02:16:26] Okay.

Shelise Sola [02:16:27] And it was an extremely transformational experience. Remember, I had never even tried alcohol at this point. I'm 29 years old. I think it was the beginning of 2019, and everyone's calling me the Mormon chick, which I loathed. They'll be like, mormon over here is diving into the deep end. I'm like, I'm not Mormon.

Shelise Sola [02:16:52] But it was a sight to see because I had never tried any sort of psychedelic substance. And here I was doing arguably the hardest one in the Amazon jungle of Peru. It literally took us two plane rides, a few different van rides, a couple hours, a two hour canoe ride just to get to this center on the Amazon River. It was incredible. And one of the experiences.

Shelise Sola [02:17:24] It was, I think it was the second journey where I was like, please, mother, Ayahuasca, if you exist, it's the. This supposed to be this entity that guides you through the medicine. I was like, please help me release this trauma with this person. And I remember it was so beautiful. There was a point where I experienced deep compassion for this person. And I realized they have all this Mormon programming. They potentially have their own childhood abuse.

Shelise Sola [02:18:01] They were in a system that ultimately distorted sexuality for them and caused it to come out in certain ways. That's not to excuse it. That's not to say that it's okay. And that's not to say that all is forgiven. Because you had a hard time, too. Because I'm not going to go abuse somebody. And that, again, experience happened to me, but it at least allowed me to hold space for him and be like, okay, he's hurting, too, because I cut him out of my life. He's struggling.

Shelise Sola [02:18:37] And it allowed me a new perspective. And also one of the more powerful moments was I saw my womb in this vision, and it had this white light in it. And then I saw this beautiful, perfect little baby. Oh, no, here come the tears.

Shelise Sola [02:18:55] And I realized that. That I was not broken because of this abuse, that I was still a beautiful, feminine woman who could have these experiences, who could have her own child. And now I do. She's in there right now.

Shelise Sola [02:19:16] And it was such a healing experience for me to recognize that even through everything that I'd experienced, I could still be a mother and I could still do a damn good job, you know, and that my abuse didn't define me. It only made me stronger.

Shelise Sola [02:19:39] I'm not thankful for my abuse. Want to set that record straight, but it did make me stronger, and it did help me to know what. Everything I didn't want to do, everything that I wanted to avoid, everything that I wanted to teach my child to prevent them from ever being put in a situation like I was. Maybe if I would have had sex education, if someone would have talked to me at a younger age and said, no one should touch you here, and if they do, please come tell me.

Shelise Sola [02:20:12] I don't know. I just feel like it would have. It could have been different. And that's not to put blame on my. My mom, you know, for. Maybe she did have that conversation. I don't remember. But sex was very taboo growing up, and you didn't really talk about it, and you didn't really have room for boundaries. It was just, you don't do this until you're older, so why talk to the kids about it?

Shelise Sola [02:20:36] So that experience was really, really beautiful for me. And in a following experience, a following session, because we did, like, nine ceremonies in 10 days. It was insane.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:50] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:20:50] My understanding is with ayahuasca, you often throw up. Is that right? Was that your choice?

Shelise Sola [02:20:57] It's part of the purge, and that's why it's a very intense medicine because it's not just like, oh, butterflies. This is fun. It's really hard on your body, too. There is a lot of purging. I didn't throw up until the fifth ceremony, and when I did, it was like, literally went to space and saw aliens. It was crazy.

Shelise Sola [02:21:17] But in one of my experiences, after I had dealt with so much of this childhood sexual abuse, I. I was like, well, now what do I ask for? Because you're supposed to set intentions before every session, and it helps optimize the experience.

Shelise Sola [02:21:36] And so one of them was, where do I go next? What's my path? Because, yeah, I'm working as an actor, and it's great, but is this what I'm supposed to do forever? And so I was trying to figure out who I was. You know, I'm at this crossroads again. Great.

Shelise Sola [02:21:56] Back to where I was 19 years old and tried to figure out what is life. And I remember very clearly a voice telling me, well, you're gonna write a book. And I'm like, that's hilarious. Why would I do that? And then I realized it was supposed to be about my life, and it's supposed to be about my experience of coming out of Mormonism, uncovering these memories, finding spirituality, gaining a sense of freedom, a new sense of self.

Shelise Sola [02:22:27] And when I got home, and there's so many other crazy experiences there, but when I got home, I was like, okay, I need to do this. I need to start writing. And so when I started writing the Mormon part, I was like, I really need to know what I'm talking about. I don't want to get something wrong. So I started watching your channel again, John.

Shelise Sola [02:22:46] I started watching Mormon stories, and I was like, holy crap. There's so much I didn't know about Mormonism. And all of these things were becoming clear to me, and all these stories like Mountain Meadows Massacre and Blood Atonement and just all the other stuff that I didn't even get to.

John Dehlin [02:23:04] I think you may have reached out to me around that point, because I looked back and I. I saw a really early email from you.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:10] I did.

Shelise Sola [02:23:10] I forgot about that.

John Dehlin [02:23:12] I remember looking up, then I'm like, ah, this person looks talented and interesting.

Shelise Sola [02:23:16] Yeah, right. Cause you were.

John Dehlin [02:23:18] Before you were world famous.

Shelise Sola [02:23:19] You were also writing a book, and you were looking for experiences, a collection of experiences. Yeah. So I started doing deep dives on that, and I even changed my last name. I was like, you know what? I need to change this to something that's empowering and not hurting me. Every time I slated my name in an audition. You do that before every audition. It hurt. It was painful when I was like, no, I'm gonna change my last name. So it was a year of transformation for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:49] Wow.

Shelise Sola [02:23:50] And, yeah, I legally changed it. Cut my hair into, like, this super intense, asymmetrical look, which is funny because it's always something that you end up doing right when you have a transformation. As you play with your appearance, you play with the things that were off limits. But I got my first tattoo. It's white and it's really small, but it's, like, on the back of my neck. I'm like, I'm gonna get a tattoo, and I'm gonna. It's funny. I had my Mormon rebellion, like, 10 years after I left. Mormonism.

John Dehlin [02:24:15] Psychedelics and tattoos. Check, check.

Shelise Sola [02:24:17] Yeah, yeah. Psychedelics, tattoos.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:19] Can I ask you a question about the writing part? I mean, had you written before? So it sounds like you kind of had this moment on, like, the ayahuasca. Right, the ayahuasca, where you are, you know, are fathoming writing a book. Have you written before? And what is the process like for you? Writing? Because writing for many people is.

John Dehlin [02:24:42] And that's assuming you wrote the book, is hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:44] That's right.

Shelise Sola [02:24:45] Yeah. So it's halfway done. I think when we started the channel, all my focus went to that. And so understandable. It's still existing. And I need to find. If you're out there, guys, if you're a publisher or an agent. I am looking for a literary agent so we can get into one of the major publishing houses. But it was. I always loved writing. I actually loved telling stories. English was my favorite subject, aside from art and fashion. And so I loved writing poetry. In fact, that was the one thing that helped me express myself, because words were always really difficult in plain language.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:21] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:25:21] And I loved writing poetry. And so. So it was a very cathartic experience when I was doing it, when I was starting it, and I enjoyed it. I think it was fun.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:32] And it sounds like it kind of led inadvertently to.

Shelise Sola [02:25:35] It did.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:37] Yeah. Let's hear that story.

Launching the Cults to Consciousness Channel

Shelise Sola [02:25:38] So that's where we're getting with this, is. Once I started doing my research on Mormonism and uncovering more things, I started following more ex Mormon creators. I was following not so Mama Lee Mormon Podcast. You guys are great. Love you guys.

Shelise Sola [02:25:52] And I. I was actually targeted because I was commenting on their posts by two guys who were starting their own podcast, and it was about Mormons and psychedelics or ex Mormons. And psychedelics. And I was like, I don't know what you guys are doing, but I'm here for it. Like, I had just become aware of the power of psychedelics and how. Which. Talk to your doctor if you want to try them. Guys, disclaimer. They were powerful for me, and they helped me, and so I wanted to be able to share those experiences. And so they invited me on to be the first guest. I was the first episode with them, and they invited me back a few times.

Shelise Sola [02:26:31] And then eventually they're like, you should just be a co host. And I was like, oh, I don't know. I don't want to step on anyone's toes. And they're like, no, you're awesome. It would be great to have someone like you come on and talk about this stuff. Because they were also very new to the psychedelic space. And I had been dabbling for, like, two years at this point, and so became a co host. And things are going really well. The podcast was growing. I had used my social media following to bolster up the channel and. And try and bring traffic over, and it was going well until it wasn't.

Shelise Sola [02:27:08] So I had found that. But after about a year and a half, I stopped getting calls to record. When I was recording with them almost weekly, I was trying to figure out, like, what's going on, guys? When are we recording? And they would just kind of do it without me.

Shelise Sola [02:27:24] And it wasn't until after solstice event that happened here in Utah, where I had put so much time and money and effort flying out to put on this huge event. This is the second one. The first one, I also did most of it.

Shelise Sola [02:27:43] Or the first one I did most of it. The second one, I was a smaller part of this huge group of people who came together to put this on. Because at this point, the podcast had grown quite a bit, and there were a lot of people who wanted to be involved. And so the day after I got home, I was like, okay, guys, the hundredth episode is coming up. What are we doing? We had been talking about it for a while, and they're like, well, actually, we were just featured in a Rolling Stones article, and we just recorded that interview with the journalist, and we're just going to release that.

Shelise Sola [02:28:15] So I was not on the interview. I was nowhere mentioned in the article, which was like a stab to the heart because I helped build it, helped create it. And they're like, and we want to talk to you. And I'm like, okay, this is the breakup.

Shelise Sola [02:28:35] So it was really frustrating. Because I was trying to level with them and be like, hey, guys, will you just tell me why you don't want me to be a co host anymore? Because they told me, we want you to still come on every now and then, but you're not going to be a co host.

Shelise Sola [02:28:49] And I was like, okay, but why? Can you tell me what's going on? And I couldn't really get a straight answer. Eventually, I got a few things like, well, our guests aren't as vulnerable when you're on, which also made me feel really sad.

Shelise Sola [02:29:07] And I don't know if they meant it's because there were too many hosts or what, but, you know, a lot of people in the community were saying, well, just give Shalice her own episode. Then, like, if. If there's too many hosts, then switch off. You know, you don't always. There were times where I would do episodes with only one of them, and so it wasn't uncommon for all of us to not be on.

Shelise Sola [02:29:29] And so it was definitely a hit to the ego. And they were also ex Mormon. And so I'm like, is there more patriarchy at play? Is there something deeper? Am I looking into it too much? Is it another case where a woman is used for all of her time and talents, and then once they have what they need, they just shove her away?

Shelise Sola [02:29:50] And it's hard because I think they're both really great people. And they did the Mormon thing. Grew up, had their families really young, served a mission, and they were just trying to do something that was great with the podcast, and it was great. And then they kind of dismantled everything. They didn't only get rid of me, they dismantled the whole team that wanted to help them.

Shelise Sola [02:30:13] And so it was just kind of a hit where I was like, man, I was finally doing something that mattered. In one of my Mushroom journeys, I had this really profound experience where I kept getting the message over and over, tell the stories that matter, tell the stories that matter. And so I thought I was doing that. I thought I was fulfilling my purpose, if there even is such thing as everyone having a purpose.

Shelise Sola [02:30:36] And now it was just kind of back to square one. And at this point, I had been dating my soon to be future husband for a few months, which, funny enough, that's kind of when they stopped calling me to record. So I started dating him, and he was like, what? Nobody puts baby in the corner. He was very supportive, and he was like, you don't need them. You can start your own podcast. And within a week, we had recorded my episode one I just set up a camera and in one long take, tried to relive all the experiences that I just have shared with you guys in the best way that I could.

Shelise Sola [02:31:15] And, I mean, within two weeks, it was out. I mean, there was so much more that went into that whole breakup of like, well, come on the show and you can tell your story or tell your side of the story. And it was just a train wreck just from even trying to get them to title it. Something that was obvious of, this is why Shalisa's leaving. Cause I didn't want people to think that I was abandoning the show because I wanted to do my own thing. That was an afterthought. I was just making the best of it. I wanted people to know that I didn't want to leave. And even that was kind of a struggle to get them to say so anyway.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:52] So control the narrative.

Shelise Sola [02:31:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:55] You didn't have control necessarily over the narrative.

Shelise Sola [02:31:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:58] Is that part of it?

Shelise Sola [02:31:59] And I just wanted people to know that I wasn't abandoning the podcast to do my own thing. I wanted to stick around. And. And I don't feel like that was conveyed. We even re recorded that episode where talking about me leaving, and they're like, let's just spin it and be like, you're going off on your own. I'm like, wow, that's not what happened. Right. It was because you guys dropped me that I decided to make something of it. I didn't decide to leave.

Shelise Sola [02:32:30] So anyway, that. I mean, it's fine. I still have a few feelings about it, obviously, but ultimately it led me to creating cults, to consciousness. And I found that guests are incredibly vulnerable with me interviewing as it turns out. As it turns out.

Shelise Sola [02:32:49] And we got into a space that was so much deeper than I anticipated. I initially wanted to continue doing what we were doing on the other podcast, talking about the consciousness side, about the awareness, about figuring out who you are as a person not being controlled by anybody else. And what ended up happening when I was like, instead of just Mormonism, I'm doing all cults, is I opened Pandora's box, and there is no bottom to this box. It just goes and goes and goes. And it's so dark and so much to take in. And. And it's been a lot, really, emotionally, especially having been dealing with my own traumas, and people will say things, and sometimes it triggers my own past, and I have to regulate and figure out ways to be okay again, get massages, do bodywork.

Shelise Sola [02:33:44] But ultimately, it's been incredibly rewarding. The messages that we get, people saying that it changed their life or wow, I didn't realize that what I went through was a cult experience. And I'm finally dealing with this in therapy now that I can put a name to it.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:01] Right.

Shelise Sola [02:34:01] I am finally understanding why I am the way that I am. Or wow, I thought I was the only one. This is my story. This is someone's telling my story. And how validating. And so it's been so incredible to be able to be the person to platform these voices because for so long, even with myself, I was silenced in Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:26] Right.

Shelise Sola [02:34:27] Be seen and not heard. You can talk, but not too much. It's that little girl in me who is commanding an audience, but not only commanding an audience, it's, hey, guys, listen to me. Platform this person. And that's what's so beautiful about it, is it grew so fast, the channel. We've only been doing it a year and a half now, and people are so on board with supporting those who have left high demand groups, who've left abusive situations, who have a story to tell. Everyone has a story to tell. But it's been so rewarding to be able to be that person who doesn't silence someone who says, here, come on our show.

Shelise Sola [02:35:15] And you can say your truth and you can say what you had to go through and you can say how you're doing now and how it's. It's hard to leave a cult. But ultimately you can be okay if you really. If you really put the effort in, if you do the work to unravel your traumas and deconstruct, if you do the work to find a community who will support you instead of put you down. And even just by watching, people are saying that they're being healed. And I'm sure you guys experience the same thing with people in their ex Mormon experiences.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] Yeah. If you don't mind, I would love to just talk specifically about one aspect of you, by the way. I just love it that this podcast didn't work out.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:04] And you went on as such a badass. And you and your partner Jonathan have both worked as this amazing team.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:12] Where in almost no time, you're like breaking the land speed record of creating a super successful YouTube channel. You've been going for how long?

Shelise Sola [02:36:20] About a year and a half.

John Dehlin [02:36:21] Year and a half. And you've got 100.

Shelise Sola [02:36:23] What, almost 170.

John Dehlin [02:36:25] It should be 170, maybe 1,000 subscribers. Like at this point, you're able to do it as a. As a primary source of income, right?

Shelise Sola [02:36:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:32] Full time. Like I said, it's going to pass Mormon stories soon, and I'm thrilled. There'll probably be TV deals and other exciting things in the works. Like, I'm just loving it because I want more partners.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:46] And on a deeper level, too, like, clearly filling a need with human beings and experiences that a lot of human beings are having that cause a great deal of damage and such suffering and sort of partnering and holding them through that and kind of showing the way that is like, I mean, absolutely. The merging. Like, I was just highlighting numbers with also this deep, deep work.

John Dehlin [02:37:16] You're doing, doing great work, interviewing amazing people all the time. I'm like, they got so and so.

Shelise Sola [02:37:21] You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:37:22] Like, I love the people you interview. The quality, the production quality is so high. You're a fantastic interviewer.

Shelise Sola [02:37:28] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] Like, I'm just over the moon.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:31] There's a community aspect to it.

John Dehlin [02:37:33] Yeah. You guys are doing like, a Costa Rica thing with your audience. Right. Like, I'm just so happy to see this inspiring story of empowerment where you have this lemon of a podcast that you gave your heart and soul to not working out. And so you turn around and make one that blows everyone.

Shelise Sola [02:37:52] It's so cool. Thank you. Yeah. It's been so amazing. And I just have to quickly give so much credit to my husband Jonathan, who's over here. I love you so much, because he really is. Oh, my gosh. I'm getting emotional. Babe, what's going on?

Shelise Sola [02:38:07] He really. It's the pregnancy. I swear, he has been the powerhouse behind this. And if it weren't for him saying, no, we're gonna do this, and you're gonna shoot the episode today and we're gonna release it tomorrow. I don't know if I would have done it. I was so not aware of YouTube as far as how it works or how to build a channel. And he was like, okay, if we're gonna do a podcast, we're going to YouTube because that's where it's at. That's where you're gonna get exposure. That's how we're gonna grow.

Shelise Sola [02:38:34] And he knows all the tech stuff, and he's like, this is how a camera works. This is how we use microphones. And so that's really the only reason that we were able to have such good production quality. And.

Shelise Sola [02:38:48] And he's the. The one planning like, okay, we need this guest, this guest, and this guest. Let's make it happen in 24 hours. And so without him, I could never have done it. And I love you so much.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] I'm so.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:01] Love the partnership.

John Dehlin [02:39:02] Love it.

Shelise Sola [02:39:03] Yeah.

Defining Cults and the Mental Harms of Mormonism

John Dehlin [02:39:04] Well, really quickly, before we kind of wrap up, One huge journey for me that my wife Margi and even some of my kids were involved in was me trying to figure out whether I was willing to frame my experience in Mormonism as having been a member of a cult. Because obviously, number one, I. I've always wanted to be effective to reach Mormons. And of course, calling telling them that they are in a culture is not the way to make them want to listen to you. So for that reason alone. But it was also kind of a hard thing for me because I'm like, I was, you know, I go back to my high school days where these kids in high school are telling me I'm in a cult and I'm offended.

John Dehlin [02:39:51] And I never wanted to accept that. So can you talk about what your journey or your experience was like? First, entertaining the idea that you had been in a cult and what it was that led you to determine that for you, you were. And what were the aspects of your upbringing that you feel like were cultish?

Shelise Sola [02:40:19] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [02:40:19] Do you mind sharing that?

Shelise Sola [02:40:20] No, that's a great question. It all happened around the same time when I started doing research and writing my book and I was introduced, introduced to someone named Ashley Easter, who is so awesome. She is also a survivor of. It was like a cult within a cult within a cult, mostly the independent Fundamental Baptist stay at home daughters movement, homeschooling movement. It was very, very intense. And so she is now an advocate, a speaker. She's the one who has the Courage365 foundation, which is incredible. And they help survivors of. Of abuse and religious upbringing, really helped help them deconstruct.

Shelise Sola [02:41:00] So she had something on her website that was, I think it was called something like what is a cult? And I was looking to have her as a guest and just connect with her in general. No, this was before the podcast even was a thing. And so I was just looking to connect with her and when I read through it, I was like, oh my gosh, Mormonism is occult.

Shelise Sola [02:41:19] And it was. Was so clear to me. She mentioned the bite model, but she also had other resources that were really helpful. And it just went through all the ways that these high demand groups manipulate and control through coercion. And it just opened my eyes to looking at all of the things that they're mentioning and going, yep, that's Mormonism. That's Mormonism. That's Mormonism. Going through all of those and realizing it can Actually effectively be labeled a cult was so mind blowing because even after being non Mormon or ex Mormon for 10 years, I still wasn't willing to call it a cult. I was like, people are so dramatic.

Shelise Sola [02:42:00] And then when I looked at the definition and these are from psychologists and others who are experts, I realized, absolutely. And that's something we talk about a lot on the channel because people will say, well, I'm not a cult survivor, but I grew up in da da da da da. And they list a very high control group. And a lot of people aren't really willing to call their experience a cult because they already have preconceived notions of what a cult should be.

Shelise Sola [02:42:28] And usually they think a cult has to be something where you're physically imprisoned and you're physically abused. And it's super obvious, like, yes, it's a cult. People look at the flds and they're like, well, yeah, they live on a compound and they have to dress a certain way and all their money is controlled. And obviously it's a cult. But they're forgetting about the mental prison that people are put into. And that's where I believe mainstream Mormonism falls. It's not an obvious cult. It's something where if you were looking at them on the street, you'd be like, oh, what a happy family.

Shelise Sola [02:43:04] You would never even attempt to assume that they were going through the things that they were going through behind closed doors. And so that's why I think it's important to point out that there are so many psychological aspects behind being in a cult that can often be, I don't want to say more damaging, but just as damaging as being physically bound somewhere. Because when you, when you can get a group of people to self police and put themselves in a prison, you've won.

Shelise Sola [02:43:36] These people who are trapped somewhere who don't want to be there, they at least have the advantage of knowing they don't want to be there. But when you're in a prison of the mind, you don't even know you're in a prison. You just think that's your reality.

Shelise Sola [02:43:49] And so when I understood that, then I could really start looking at other groups and going, okay, do we want to say that the Amish are a culture? Well, when we started doing interviews with former Amish, wow, it is absolutely mind blowing. The systemic abuse that goes on in the Amish communities, the child sex abuse, the bestiality, like we're talking really, really intense things that are very commonplace, way more than the Mormon church.

Shelise Sola [02:44:24] And so I think Just being open minded to the idea that cults can look and feel so many different ways can help people understand their own background. Even being in narcissistic relationships often operates like a cult. And so it's just better to be open minded and not say everything's a cult because then it diminishes the meaning. Of course. But being open to dissecting and looking at the patterns that all of these high demand groups have, I love it.

John Dehlin [02:44:59] Yeah, well, that, that makes all the sense in the world. So thanks for, for sharing that. Like, if for you, for things that affected you personally, what were like the three to five most damaging things that would be considered cult like for your story? And I'm just curious. It's not, you know, I know I'm putting you on the spot a little bit.

Shelise Sola [02:45:19] No, that's okay. Well, we talked about the mental prison of even just accepting your own body. So the body dysmorphia, the simultaneous, be a sexual being, but be ashamed of it. So I think when you can, you've mentioned this before, when you can control someone's sexuality, you got them.

Shelise Sola [02:45:40] I mean, he literally got him by the balls, right? If you can control what they do with something that's so primal and so natural, I think that's a huge thing. I never had to wear garments, but I feel like when you can control someone's underwear, that's a really big telltale sign that you might be in a cult.

Shelise Sola [02:45:58] And also the leaving thing. So if it's not a cult, if it's not a high demand group and you want to bounce and everyone's like, cool, have a great life, it's probably not a bad group. But if they ostracize you and they demonize you.

Shelise Sola [02:46:15] Ever since coming out against my abuser, my extended family is like, well, we're our plan. And I've heard this from people who heard it directly from them. Our plan is to sue her into bankruptcy and then bring her back to the Lord. And I'm thinking, wow, that's so Christlike of you. But they don't see it because their only goal is the church has nothing to do with. I wonder if she's okay.

Shelise Sola [02:46:40] I wonder if anyone's talked to her. You know, my abuser did a fabulous job of convincing them that none of it happened. And instead of coming to me with, can we hear your side of the story? It's, well, so someone literally said this to me or to my mother.

Shelise Sola [02:46:57] The first conversation that she had with my mother was, well, can we really believe What Shalice says she believes in reincarnation. And I'm like, what the hell does that have to do with anything? If I believe that maybe we have past lives and I'm open to the idea that means that there's no way I could have been sexually abused because in their mind, I'm led by Satan. In their mind I'm just a sinner, I'm wearing bikinis, I'm being a horrible person. And so how can we possibly trust anything that she says? And that's so damaging. That's extremely cult like when you won't see a person for who they are because they don't believe the same way that you believe.

Shelise Sola [02:47:40] And you think that because they once believed it and left. Now they're, I don't know, attached with demons or something. I mean, guys. And they don't see it. They don't see the issue with it. They just see the end goal, which is she's a sinner and she needs to repent and she needs to turn to God and she needs to come back to the church because that's the only way she's going to be fixed. And I'm thinking, well, therapy is a good start. Or how about familial support? That would be a great start to help me out. But those aren't options that are in their psyche.

John Dehlin [02:48:19] Yeah. Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:21] It's that saying a cult is any organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact.

Shelise Sola [02:48:27] Yes, right.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:28] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:48:29] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:48:29] And I just feel so lucky that my immediate family is not involved in the church because, I mean, you've seen the stories. There's so many people who are ostracized from their parents and their siblings. And I'm just so grateful that that's not the case for me. I have great relationships with my siblings and my mom and love them so much. So, yeah, I'm just happy that I have that.

John Dehlin [02:48:50] Beautiful. Marg, you had a question or two?

Reclaiming Body, Identity, and Wellbeing After Religion

Margi Dehlin [02:48:53] Yeah. I am curious. Earlier you had talked a little bit about living in a very. In the trauma of sexual abuse and then kind of going through your ayahuasca journey. I'm curious now what care for you looks like now in this present moment around kind of the trauma of your sexual abuse.

Shelise Sola [02:49:22] What does that look like? That's a million dollar question. I think I did try to get some therapists who didn't quite work out. So I'm still on the lookout and I need to get with another therapist. Therapy is also expensive and so it's tricky.

Shelise Sola [02:49:41] One of the things was my abuser said that he would pay for my therapy, and he has not. Or he's like, well, here's some money. So it's hard because I definitely think that that is a path I need to take and be more diligent with.

Shelise Sola [02:49:58] Aside from that, it's about understanding my boundaries. It's about setting boundaries. That's probably the biggest one. And I still don't like to be touched by people. I enjoy hugs. Like, hey, good to see you. Let's hug it out.

Shelise Sola [02:50:14] But as far as anything else goes, just random touch, it triggers my immune system where I'm like. Because it's this. I think it just comes from being out of control. Where I've been dealing with the pregnancy thing, where people automatically want to put their hands on the belly.

Shelise Sola [02:50:36] And it could be someone who's like a best friend. And if I don't get that, like, hey, can I. It almost feels like an invasion. And I have to kind of remind myself that I'm safe. And so I've been doing that with just creating boundaries around things that I'm comfortable with, things that I'm not comfortable with.

Shelise Sola [02:50:58] And going, no contact with my abuser. That was a big one. Because, you know, I would tell him, hey, I really don't like it when you reach out or please wait until I reach out to you, because it's hard for me to see your name on my phone. And then he would continue to text me and be like, I know you wanted me to not talk to you, but. And I'm just like, you don't get that you're re traumatizing me every time you continue to. To ignore my boundaries or pretend I don't have any.

Shelise Sola [02:51:27] And so I think going no contact is a really healthy thing if you have a family member who is not helping you stay in a good mental state or who is ignoring the fact that you've put up boundaries, I think obviously take a lot of care when making that decision. And I did. It took me years to get to the point of being like, okay, I'm legit blocking your number because you're not respecting the boundaries I've put in place.

Shelise Sola [02:51:59] And also just having a really great support system. So having my husband who's there and who can help me regulate when I need it, when I have hard interviews where sometimes there's cases where I shut the laptop after the interview and I just break down crying, and I'm just like, I need a hug. I need to be held. He's the only One who can touch me. I'm like, please touch me. It makes me feel better. It's a very interesting thing. It's like, touch will completely trigger me or completely heal me if it's him.

Shelise Sola [02:52:32] And so, yeah, just being really intentional about the way I move through space, about the way I present myself, the way I show up, the way I bring other people into my space. And I think that's been the best thing for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:47] Yeah. Thank you for that. Thank you for sharing that. My other questions are around rebuilding a little bit just for you. Are there, like, what are some of the happy touch points? I feel like we've witnessed and are witnessing some of those here in studio with you, but are there some things that come to mind where you're like, here, here were some of the joys, or here are some of the things I'm holding currently around rebuilding or things that were really helpful, or do you want to say anything around rebuilding the happy stuff? And then we can say if there have been challenging things.

Shelise Sola [02:53:28] Yeah. Which is fun because that's like. It's what I call in my inner, the consciousness side of the story, what makes you happy and at peace and all of that good stuff. I think community has been a good one as far as finding those people who really understand me, who I can call at any point and be like, hey, I'm having a bad day. Can you just let me vent? Or do you have the space for me to vent? I think it's really important, guys, if you ever want to do this to your friends or with your friends, it's important to ask them if they have the headline space to hold all of that first.

Shelise Sola [02:54:02] And so finding people who are willing to listen. Happy points. Just finding the love of my life and marrying him has been so awesome and incredible and validating in the sense that, you know, I felt like an old maid for so long, even though I'm not. But in Utah terms, like, what, you're over 30 and you're not married times ticking, you know, and so being able to validate myself in the fact of, you can wait till you find the right person. And I'm so glad I did.

John Dehlin [02:54:39] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:54:40] And I'm so glad I held out for someone who met all of my expectations as far as this is the person who's going to help me have a peaceful, happy, successful, fulfilling life instead of the list that I made when I was 12 of he's got to be a returned missionary.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:57] He's.

Shelise Sola [02:54:58] He's gotta go to church every Sunday. He's Gotta be a worthy priesthood holder.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:03] That's right.

Shelise Sola [02:55:03] And it's just so interesting how the list has shifted into something that's so much more beneficial because it doesn't matter what he believes. I love him. And he's an amazing human being, and he's gonna be an amazing father.

Shelise Sola [02:55:17] And so finding joy in that, in doing things on my own time. And also getting pregnant has been, like, such a blessing. I'm so happy because there was that little bit of. Of, are you too old? Like, I knew in the back of my mind I wasn't. But also, like, what if it doesn't work? What if it takes years? What if we struggle with infertility? I was an egg donor five times, actually. And so I was worried that maybe that affected something or maybe we won't be able to get pregnant. And it happened the first cycle, and I was like, oh, crap. I don't know if I was ready because I thought it was gonna take months and months and months.

Shelise Sola [02:55:53] You're like, it took. Yeah, it worked. So, yeah. I think just finding joy in even the little things and being still in going dancing. I still love salsa dancing and going to salsa clubs and expressing myself in that way.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:10] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:56:10] And just giving myself permission to be. Just to exist.

John Dehlin [02:56:15] I love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:16] Yes. I love that. All right. And then just the foil to that. Like, what have been some of the harder challenges to rebuilding things that.

Shelise Sola [02:56:26] Yeah, yeah. The challenges to rebuilding. It's interesting because I haven't really thought about the negative side in a while because I feel like once you allow yourself to open up and give yourself, sky's the limit to figuring out who you are. It's hard to get back into that mindset of restriction. And once you realize that there's so many possibilities and there are people who are willing to support you, it's hard to get back into that. Well, I can't do it because I'm a sinner. You know what I mean? But I will say challenges that still linger. Let's see. Would probably be the unworthiness thing. Every now and then, it'll pop up randomly.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:14] Right.

Shelise Sola [02:57:15] It popped up when I was trying to get my wedding dress, when I went and tried on these insanely gorgeous gowns that were so expensive. And I remember walking out in one of them, and I looked in the mirror and I was like, who do you think you are to wear a dress so beautiful? And that was my Mormon background. That's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:33] There it is.

Shelise Sola [02:57:33] Yeah, there it is. And I was like, wait a second. And I immediately knocked Myself out of that because I got really emotional when I saw myself in this gown. I bought it, by the way. That was my wedding gown. But it was a moment where I realized, of course you're worthy enough to wear this dress and you look amazing in it. And those big old hips that you got made fun of for and shamed for look incredible in this dress. And it's super low cut, and that's awesome. And maybe you don't have the chest that you want because you had to take out your off awesome implants, but you look amazing.

Shelise Sola [02:58:12] And just really getting rid of that body dysmorphia has been tricky. It's especially been tricky being pregnant, gaining 50 pounds and looking in the mirror, being like, oh, man, are you still beautiful? And in the back of my mind I'm like, of course you're beautiful and you're growing a human and that's amazing. But it still comes out, you know, the conditioning. The conditioning of being perfect, of looking

Margi Dehlin [02:58:34] perfect and your value being in what you look like.

Shelise Sola [02:58:38] Yes. Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:40] Yes. That's beautiful.

Shelise Sola [02:58:43] Thank you for that.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:44] Is there anything. Okay, then this really is my last question. Is there anything that surprises you that if, like, if we go back to conditioned, like in seeing you now and being in your skin now, that you're like, this is surprising. I didn't really anticipate this part of the journey being right now. Is there anything that surprises you being

Shelise Sola [02:59:11] an authority in any type of way? So being in. Because it really is a position of power when people listen, when people tune into the channel, when people want to hear what I have to say, and it's something that I never would have thought that I could have. It's something that I never even wanted to have, really. It just kind of happened. And it's not even that I value the power, it's that I value that it's a possibility that I could have power because that was not an option in Mormonism.

Shelise Sola [02:59:45] Going back to my ex boyfriend saying, yeah, I know you had dreams, but I just was planning on making you a housewife. That literally was not an option. And so I think it's really beautiful to be able to have the ability to platform these people and to have a voice and to give other people a voice. That's probably the most surprising, especially coming from the timid little shalice who was too scared to even say two sentences because maybe no one would listen.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:12] Yes. I love that so much for you.

Shelise Sola [03:00:15] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:00:17] Yeah, I'll just say it again. It's just been so lovely to see you go. From a listener who emails me to, like, a podcast that's going to be passing us all up soon. I'm so thrilled for the success of Cults to Consciousness. I'm so inspired by your story of resilience, by your relationship with Jonathan, by the amazing work you're doing, and I think you're just beginning. So we are just, you know, viewers and listeners check out Cults of Consciousness, subscribe to their channel, and just wait, because you ain't seen nothing yet. Sola and Jonathan, so much.

Shelise Sola [03:00:55] Thank you. Yeah, that means a lot, especially coming from you guys, who are pioneers in the space and who have been doing this for so long and really have been an inspiration to me. And so it's an honor to sit here as a fellow creator and we chat back and forth, like, how are things with you? Or what do you think of this thumbnail? It's so cool to be able to.

Shelise Sola [03:01:17] Yeah, it's been so cool to compare notes with someone who I looked up to for so long, like, wow, this is awesome. And it's just. It's really empowering. So I appreciate you being so open and welcoming of me in the space and wanting to team up instead of viewing each other as competition. It really means a lot. So thank you for having me on to share my story for sure.

John Dehlin [03:01:38] And thank you for being vulnerable about really hard stuff. And I'll just tell viewers, listeners, like, there's more that we wanted to tell in this story. And lately, Mormon stories has just been. Has just been sort of the recipient of a barrage of either lawsuits or threats for lawsuits. And so there's some aspects to Shalisa's story that she goes into more detail on her own channel, and I hope you'll check that out. And I just. I appreciate your flexibility in me trying to just not enter into another lawsuit. But thanks for being vulnerable about your story. And I wish we could have gone into a little more detail, but thanks for being a good sport about that.

Shelise Sola [03:02:19] Yeah, I appreciate that. And I know that it can be tricky, especially in the creator space, in the YouTube space, and just being public about things, it's always a little hard and a little scary to know who may come out of left field and just take everything down or try to take everything down.

John Dehlin [03:02:33] I'm tired of taking episodes down. I'm just. I don't want to take any more episodes down.

Shelise Sola [03:02:37] Yeah, yeah. There are more details on my page. I Think in the first episode, in the Ayahuasca episode where I talk more about the child abuse and everything. So if you're interested, guys, you can check that out or not, because it is a little hard. Yeah. I think it's called How Psychedelics Changed My Life. And we can give you links and stuff, too. But it was great, though, to come on and tell all of the little snippets that I've probably mentioned in other episodes all in one place. So now if someone asks, like, what's your story? Here you go. Here's the link.

John Dehlin [03:03:09] Absolutely. And the baby is due any minute, man.

Shelise Sola [03:03:13] She's due March 8th. And she can. I'm telling her she has to bake until Friday, which is like four days from now. And then she can come because then it's past 37 weeks.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:22] Yes. Yeah, that's right. How exciting.

John Dehlin [03:03:26] Well, congratulations again for the wedding and. And for the baby.

Shelise Sola [03:03:31] Thank you so much. Very excited.

John Dehlin [03:03:33] Yeah. All right, well, Margi, it's always great to have you. Thanks so much for being here today as well.

Shelise Sola [03:03:38] Always a pleasure. Thank you.

Closing Thoughts and How to Support the Podcast

John Dehlin [03:03:40] All right, and thanks to all you viewers for joining us today with Shalis on Mormon Stories. Again, please subscribe to Cults to Consciousness. Check it out. Support it. Is there any way they can support you guys financially?

Shelise Sola [03:03:53] By the way, we do have a patriot, a Patreon. Patreon. We do have a donor box on our website@cultstoconsciousness.com and we have fun merch over there as well.

John Dehlin [03:04:05] Okay. Yeah. Support them.

Shelise Sola [03:04:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:04:07] And if you're able to support Mormon Stories, become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org that's the best way to support us. Thanks to everyone who donates to make this podcast possible. We couldn't do it without you. Thanks to Gerardo, Brooklyn Maven, and of course, Julia for all the work y' all do in the production, post production area to make all this possible. Thanks to our board. Thanks to Margi, and yeah, most importantly, be good to each other, Be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.