Introduction and Episode Overview

Kolby Reddish [00:00:00] Hello everyone and thank you for joining us on today's episode of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Discussions Edition. I'm your host today, Colby Redish. And before I bring our other panelists on, I just wanted to remind everybody about the purpose of the LDS discussion series. So the purpose of the LDS discussion series is an attempt to discuss Mormon truth claims as objectively as we can, based on evidence, to look at the claims and try and set aside bias as much as possible. This work started with the legend Mike, who started his website ldsdiscussions.com and the first, I don't know, 60 something episodes were taken from Mike's website and revamped as part of this series. Mike has since retired and we are so happy to continue this series with our panel. There are dozens of previous episodes in this series. When I get our other panelists on in a second, they'll remind us exactly how many we've done. But as a reminder, this series kind of builds upon itself. So our last episode regarding information density was the last one that we had done, and this one kind of grew out of some discussions we were having as we were doing that episode. So these episodes are often best if they're consumed sequentially. If you have an interest in that. John always says that the LDS discussion series is one of the most important things that Mormon Stories podcast has ever done. So if you, you can please donate to keep this series alive because John makes sure to pay the panel and the participants that we bring on. And in the future we're interested in bringing on some additional experts. He always pays the panel for their time. So please support that work if you are able to do so and send any feedback that you have to johnorinstories podcastmail.com with that introduction, I'm going to introduce the other members of our panel. Today. We've got Julia Sanders and the Illustrious. The British Nemo. The Mormon.

Nemo [00:01:56] Yeah, illustrious and British. I think that. Yeah, they'll do it.

The Gift of Discernment and Fraud Vulnerability

Kolby Reddish [00:02:02] Okay, so today's episode. Juliet, introduce us to the concept of today's episode.

Julia [00:02:09] Well, so actually I might as well just show the working thumbnail that we've got. So this is what we're going to talk about today. I just titled it Falling for Fraudster.

Nemo [00:02:19] What episode number is it, Gina?

Julia [00:02:20] This is actually episode number 73 and I really enjoyed last episode because we were all in studio and I think that was the first time in LDS discussions history where that's happened. But yeah, so today we're going to be talking about the different things of the Gift of Discernment. The ability of prophets to see around corners or to discern right from error or whatever. And then I think a little bit we're going to talk about the fraud capital, is Utah being the fraud capital and things like that. So we're going to go through a little bit of some. I try to put these in chronological order as far as like when in church history they were happening. So again, I think most of these have been covered in other Mormon Stories episodes. So if you want more detail on these, I'll leave those in the show notes. But so today we're going to just give little snippets, kind of like a. Like a buffet or like, I don't

Nemo [00:03:09] know, just like a taster session.

Julia [00:03:11] Yes.

Kolby Reddish [00:03:12] Yeah. Like a Pokemon. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like a charcuterie. Board of frogs. The way this, the idea for this episode kind of started. Yeah, that's a fun image of shirkute. Board of Frog. The way the idea for this episode started was kind of evaluating the epistemology that is often applied when you're part of believing in the church's kind of like, overall system, overall narrative. And I think, think while we were all kind of discussing when we were in Utah a couple of weeks ago, I had made the point like, look at how often using the epistemology you need to. To continue believing in the church exposes you to charlatans or to frauds. And so this isn't going to be an in depth deep dive on every single one of these examples, but I think it just helps make this overall example of, you know, one of the value propositions of the church to me is its claim that it has prophets that speak for God, that act as watchmen on a tower, and that through the power of the priesthood, through the power of the Holy Ghost, those prophets and church members can know the truth of all things. That's what's explicitly promised in Moroni's Promise. At the end of the Book of Mormon, people often only talk about the part where it talks about knowing the truth of the Book of Mormon, but it does literally say, by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things. And so I think that idea is kind of what spawned today's episode. And so, yeah, like you said, Julia, we will go through and kind of hit a greatest hits of the way that the epistemology required to continue believing in Mormonism's claims can leave people exposed and vulnerable to frauds.

Julia [00:04:55] Yeah, that was great. So the first thing that I want to do, however, is to. Is to amend some things that we've said, and we want to be accurate on this, on this series. And so there's just a note from Dan Vogel from our. I can't remember which episode this one was. Was this one. It was about the. The plates.

Kolby Reddish [00:05:12] This actually was the last one. Or this was about the stone box.

Julia [00:05:15] The stone box. Okay. Yeah. So the message from the note from Dan Vogel, and he gives a timestamp. He says the Paulson interview with Whitmer is not reliable. Widmer complained that he had been misquoted. Paulson seems to have changed both John and David's statements to make them more evidentiary. Saunders is the best source. Nothing was found. The hole was dug by the money diggers on the eastern slope because that is where Joseph Smith showed Samuel Lawrence where they were, and he confirmed it was with his seer stone. Widmer only saw stones at the bottom of the hill and assumed that they were the deconstructed box, which is why they mentioned what they thought was cement. And so he's just correcting some of the things we said. So. So David Wimmer didn't. He just saw rocks is what I'm gathering. Just some stones that he assumed were the box.

Kolby Reddish [00:06:03] Right. Rather than the stone box itself or the materials that were in the stone box.

Julia [00:06:09] Right.

Kolby Reddish [00:06:09] Or at least I think what Dan's saying is that where you had pulled that source from, there are other questions about that source, according to Whitmer, that basically he had later said that he'd been misquoted. And so, yeah, we really appreciate notes like that from. Especially from someone like Dan who, you know, understand so much about church history. I'm always impressed with the breadth of his knowledge. So that's a good correction. Let's start now with today's episode.

Utah as the White Collar Fraud Capital

Julia [00:06:36] Okay. So, yeah, you had me add this one.

Kolby Reddish [00:06:40] I did, yeah. So this is something that I think a lot of people, well, they might not know, but I know that I've known it for a while. The bottom line is that Utah is known as the white. One of the white collar fraud capitals of the world. It has its own, if I remember correctly, it has its own FBI office specifically dedicated to investigating white collar and affinity frauds. And I think my point here that I wanted to make with this is that, again, it's kind of the epistemological point, which is you're so caught up when you're inside the church's system that you don't necessarily recognize that you need to apply some skepticism to people's claims. I Know, I have seen a lot of cases that had like just followed them from afar. I mean, where there have been white collar or affinity fraud type claims. A friend of mine and I on my channel did an episode talking about Alpha culture and Utah's Alpha Con. There was like a convention of Alpha business leaders. It's a very long, weird story. The point is there were like 10 headline speakers in, in Utah, in Salt Lake. They hosted this, I think in 2020. It was either 2021 or 2022. I can't remember off the top of my head. But the bottom line is like of the 10 people who spoke as headliners at this event, like three or four of them are now in federal prison for fraud or have been alleged to have committed fraud. And you know, so my, my joke to, to, to borrow a joke from myself was that convention really put the con in Alpha Con.

Nemo [00:08:22] So I believe the, the strap line for that event was be great or be nothing.

Kolby Reddish [00:08:29] Which. Yeah, yeah. So my point here is just that and I know there's so many people who will probably share stories in the comments of, you know, some member of the church, probably some sadly well intentioned sometimes like getting in over their head with some business idea or some multi level marketing opportunity. We know those things are really prevalent inside the church's culture, particularly because of kind of the defined gender roles with regard to work and the family proclamation, basically not really allowing for women to work outside of the home where there's resistance to women working outside of the home. And so multi level marketing and other other types, other ways of making money that do tend to expose you more to white collar and affinity frauds we think are just very prevalent inside of Utah. We can see from this article that you pulled, Julia, that to put it into perspective how bad Utah's problem with financial fraud is, consider Florida. The Sunshine State has the second most Ponzi schemes per capita with an average of 0.51 Ponzi schemes per 100,000 people, which is 63% less than Utah. So if you're comparing the first, which is Utah to the second, that is a huge, huge jump up in Utah. And so to me it prompts the question, what is different about Utah that makes it the white collar and affinity fraud capital of the world. And I would suggest that what makes it different is that members of the church are trained from a very early age to trust the way they feel as a, as like the absolute bedrock of truth. And if you feel good about this person that's approaching you with this business opportunity, then you are going to believe that it's going to work out for you. And unfortunately that's something that charlatans, frauds and hucksters take advantage of constantly. So you can see that to compare with Florida's rate, Utah has 1.35 Ponzi schemes per 100,000 people, making it the most fraud ridden state per capita in the U.S. dang. Any thoughts from either of you on white collar fraud and Utah?

Julia [00:10:42] Well, my thought, and I hope this is not inappropriate to say, but I wonder because with me, I'll just speak for myself. When I was in the church, I had a hard time with critical thinking skills or at least I don't feel like I had all those tools in my toolbox because I was, I was taught to trust my leaders, to trust what was being told to me, what was being taught to me. And I didn't think to question like, like, oh, is this actually accurate? Or what is actually happening here? Or just things like that. And so that was just something like not only just trusting your feelings. I also wonder if that might be rude to say but like if some individuals have a hard time questioning, just like asking is this is accurate? I don't know if that's fair.

Kolby Reddish [00:11:22] And even, even just from the bottom of this, this, you know, statistic that you pulled from this story says the answer is simple in theory, while harder in real life do your due diligence. So I think that go along with what, you know, this law firm that's advertising on this story is that's the same point they're making is that you need to apply some base level of skepticism to not get taken advantage of.

Julia [00:11:46] Right? Yeah, yeah.

Nemo [00:11:47] I think speaking as an outsider to this, I think looking at the way the church is structured seems very obviously that it would lend itself then to MLMs because they're going to feel very familiar. The idea there's someone above you who tells you what to do and then you trickle it down.

Julia [00:12:02] Yeah, I had that same thing.

Nemo [00:12:03] The church is incredibly hierarchical in that sense. And it's not hierarchical with someone who you kind of look up to in the sense of they've been to a seminary or they are external, you know, a, a local clergyman in the uk, your Anglican priest feels external to community in some ways they feel apart from it. Whereas if you know that Steve, who sells solar is also your bishop, then you're like, right, well the lines are blurred. And also I'm used to just trusting my neighbor when he tells me what to do because the spirit told him that it was right.

Kolby Reddish [00:12:37] Yeah, yeah. It also just, it gives people access. It gives people who are looking for money in this way access to like a very large group of people who are usually pretty trusting of people who are part of their in group system. And so to me, that would be one of the big explainers as well. And aside from what you said, Nemo, about the. The hierarchy of MLMs really appealing to people who are part of the church. I think the other thing, and maybe I didn't state this very clearly the first time I tried, but the other thing is we know that it's so hard to make family life work on a single income. Like, that's just an economic reality that's changed from like the mid-1980s when the church was really, you know, harping on mothers staying at home. And so I think an additional reason that MLMs really appeal to Mormons specifically is because there are many women who feel drawn to still try and follow, you know, the prophetic council they were raised with to not work at home, but they need some way to contribute economically to their family's income. And so I think it becomes very appealing for a lot of young, especially younger women, I notice, are really drawn to the MLM model. And so I think that's another explainer of why Mormons seem to be drawn so prevalently to MLMs is it's a good opportunity to make money while still. Or it can be viewed as a good opportunity to make money. I think the statistics say it's actually, actually a terrible way to make money. But the. You can see why people are drawn to it. Right. I can work from home on my own schedule, be my own boss, babe, and still stay home with my kids and follow that prophetic counsel. So, yeah.

Nemo [00:14:18] Have you seen, I mean, everyone be familiar with that scene from the Office? I'm sure, where Jim has to show Michael that it is indeed a pyramid scheme. And it just makes you think of how in the same way that people often can't see the church for what it is when they're in it, when you're in one of these things, you also can't see it for what it is. And so I don't necessarily blame people who get entangled in these things. Oh, 100 hard to see what you're part of.

Kolby Reddish [00:14:41] Yeah, yeah. I am not at all blaming the people who fall for that. I understand why people, while it appeals to people, because they're trying to make their lives better, and I blame the people who take advantage of those desires, usually knowingly Right, Yeah.

Joseph Smith's History with Folk Magic and Glass Looking

Julia [00:14:56] So the next slide I have is something more. It's very specific to Joseph Smith. I can't remember Nima or Colby if you asked me to put this in here. His experience with Isaiah Stole.

Kolby Reddish [00:15:08] Yeah, Josiah stole. Josiah stole. Yeah. I think sometimes he was called Isaiah maybe, or in one account. I think I've seen that before too. But yeah, Josiah stole. The reason that I point to Josiah Stoll and this testimony is because I think it makes that epistemological point that I made on the previous slide here. So for people who you don't know, Joseph Smith was accused and taken to trial in 1826 for being a glass looker. So this is Joseph Smith's glass looking trial in South Bainbridge, New York. One of the friendly witnesses to Joseph Smith was actually the person who was alleged to have been being defrauded. Josiah stole. So Josiah stole, obviously in 1826. The church wasn't organized at this point, but he would later join the church. And one of the things that's interesting to me about Josiah Stoll is that he believed Joseph Smith even when he had negative evidence of Joseph Smith's claims. And I think this just makes that same epistemological point, like I said just a moment ago. So this, this comes from the William Purple account of that 1826 trial of Joseph Smith and Nemo. I can't remember. Is there an episode earlier in the LDS discussion series that looks at the South Bainbridge glass looking trial in greater detail, or was it part of another.

Nemo [00:16:27] I believe so.

Kolby Reddish [00:16:28] Episode?

Nemo [00:16:30] Yeah, I don't think it's had its own standalone episode, but I think Joseph Smith's run in with the law is definitely something that's been gone over.

Julia [00:16:37] If it hasn't been done exclusively by itself, we should definitely do that. Sure, yeah.

Kolby Reddish [00:16:43] Yeah. So the interesting thing is Josiah stole's family members basically bring this case against Joseph Smith, alleging him of being a glass looker. And so he's tried in New York court. I think he. Actually the record of the trial that we have is only like a preliminary trial, if I remember correctly, or like a preliminary hearing. Again, the legal system was very different in these days. But the bottom line is that Josiah Stoll is called as a friendly witness, even though he's alleged to be the one who's being defrauded here by his family members. And you can see here it says he confirmed all that is said in relation above to himself and delineated many other circumstances not necessary to the record. He swore that the prisoner, meaning Joseph Smith, possessed all the power he claimed and declared that he could see things 50ft below the surface of the earth, as plain as the witness could see what was on the justice's table and described very many circumstances to confirm his words. Justice Neely soberly looked at the witness and in a solemn, dignified voice said, deacon Stowell, do I understand you as swearing before God under the solemn oath you have taken that you believe the prisoner can see by the aid of the stone 50ft below the surface of the earth? And as plainly as you can see what is on my table and it says, do I believe it? Says Deacon Stowell, do I believe it? No, it is not a matter of belief. I positively know it to be true. And what's very interesting to me about this is that, you know, this comes from Joseph Smith's days as a money digger, as a glass liquor. And Joseph Smith never found any treasure at all. The only thing he ever found was a feather that was alleged to have been buried with a set of. I think it was a chest of money at that point while he was employed by Josiah Stole digging for money. And I think my point here is just. It is very interesting that Josiah Stole even says, I don't believe this. I positively know it to be true. When he has better case than anyone to know that Joseph Smith does not have the gift that he's claiming to have because he never found any of the things that he said he was going to by doing these glass looking excursions. The one last note I'll have about Josiah Stole specifically is we've done earlier episodes about the Book of Mormon witnesses, like the plates to the Book. The witnesses to the plates of the Book of Mormon and apologists recently have used an account from Josiah Stowell to say that he was an informal witness of the. The plates that he saw. He's the one, the witness, the informal witness that had seen them as like a green stone, if you remember that. Yeah, like had seen and said that they were like a stone of a greenish cast, I think is his phrase. And so it's very interesting to me to see Josiah Stole being offered as someone whose testimony can be believed when this account of Josiah Stole and how he engaged with Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith's claimed gifts to me shows that he was willing to believe basically anything. But maybe I'm being too harsh on Josiah Stahl. What do you two think?

Nemo [00:19:44] I think a more charitable take perhaps could be that he is very ready to believe Joseph Smith and his supernatural claims and he has a supernatural worldview. And so it's not that he's willing to believe anything, but he is willing to believe these sorts of fantastical things.

Julia [00:20:02] Yeah, I was, I was going to say something too, where I think a lot of people are in the church, not necessarily because they believe the evidence, but because they like how it makes them feel. They like the beliefs like in heaven or the three heavens or, or families can be together forever. I think, as it seems to me, in my experience, a lot of people don't care about the evidence. They just are. And so, like, it seems like Josiah Stoll doesn't care about the evidence. He just really wants to be able to believe that this man can see treasure under 50ft under the ground. And so that's why I, that's another reason why I think these LDS discussions episodes are important, is because we're trying to show the evidence. And so, like, but again, we can't really force people to like him. He's literally on the stand. We can't force people to accept the

Nemo [00:20:44] evidence, but because then there's the excitement for him of, oh, we may find this treasure one day. You know, we may find this stuff that we're looking for. I think, yeah, there's some. There's some power to being part of an in group that has a special view of the world and has a special purpose and that can be defended in the face of quite strong evidence to the contrary once you're sufficiently embedded with that group.

Church Teachings on Prophetic Discernment

Julia [00:21:13] So, yeah, so these are ones I added because these seem to follow along in my mind about the gift of discernment. And so the gift of discernment, this is from the church's website. This is their. What do you call this, the dictionary or the gospel topics? Like, what do you call this defining Bible dictionary? Probably Bible dictionary. Okay, so the definition of the gift of discernment is to understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source of meaning and spiritual manifestations. And then it also says church leaders are given power to discern the gift of the Spirit. And that's taken From D&C 46, which I have added just to see exactly what that one says. And then. Nima, do you want to read this?

Kolby Reddish [00:22:00] Sure.

Nemo [00:22:01] And all these gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God and unto the bishop of the church and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be Elders unto the Church are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts, lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.

Julia [00:22:22] Thank you. So like here it's saying specifically that the bishops are given the gift of discernment. But then also it's saying, in my mind, it says, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church. So to me, that would mean, I guess, the prophets and the.

Nemo [00:22:36] Someone who is regarded to be a watchman of some kind. Per chance.

Julia [00:22:42] Yeah. But also, Colby, you said something about how the Spirit helps us. How did you word that the Holy Ghost helps us discern right and wrong? From Moroni or from.

Kolby Reddish [00:22:52] It actually says, by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things. I mean, this. Yeah, and I understand we added these because there will be some apologists or some, you know, pro Mormon content creators, they're going to say that we're not correctly talking about these concepts. I just think that's kind of a ridiculous concern. Like the Holy Ghost, we could use so many scriptures. I mean, literally, just James 1:5, like Joseph Smith's entire story is about going to God and getting answers to prayers in a way that no one else can. That's like the premise of this entire. The premise of the entire genesis of Mormonism is the Holy Ghost being able to reveal things to someone that it didn't reveal to other people the true nature of things. If you go back a slide, Julia, I really like the way this, this put it. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations. So to anyone who would say that this is not what the Church teaches, this is not the model that it has in the scriptures, I just, frankly, I think that's a little ridiculous. If the Holy Ghost cannot reveal things to us in a way that we don't, that we can't tell whether they're true or not true. Like, what exactly is the value of the Holy Ghost? So, yes, it's from Moron, where I was using that. I think it's Moroni 10:5 that it says, by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things. To me, all means all, and it's just very telling.

Nemo [00:24:25] 10 5, that very famous scripture that people, that people are invited to to learn the truth of the Church, to learn that the Church is true so that they should join the Church. So if it's good enough for that, is it not good enough for these Other things. Sorry, Colby jumped in there.

Kolby Reddish [00:24:41] No, you're fine. Yep. You're just making the same point I was.

Julia [00:24:44] Perfect. Yeah. Okay, so there's some. There's some clips that I want to share that talk about either the gift of discernment or the roles of prophets or individuals like that. So this one is from Elder Ballard, or, excuse me, Elder Bednar, talking about the spirit of discernment. Let me make that full screen first.

Speaker D [00:25:03] As we read under the surface, discernment

Kolby Reddish [00:25:07] helps us detect hidden error and evil in others.

Julia [00:25:13] Yeah, so I just wanted to share that one because he's. He's like, adding a little bit more to detect hidden error and evil in others, whereas before it was just saying the true character, which is. I guess it's the same thing as the true character of an individual.

Nemo [00:25:26] But we are going to see specific examples of error and of evil people.

Julia [00:25:32] Right, okay, so this next one is a. Is a short clip from Sherry Dew where she's discussing this idea of prophets seeing around corners, says Elder Brent H. Nielsen. I quickly learned that the Lord had prepared us for this day. Prophets can see around corners. Close quote. Ammon explained how prophets see around corners.

Kolby Reddish [00:25:57] Quote, A seer can know of things

Julia [00:26:00] which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them.

Nemo [00:26:11] So just broadly, before we get into that, a couple of points I'd like to make. Firstly, sorry, Sherry, that I've been attributing that quote to you so often that prophets can see around corners. You were just quoting a man, as is your right to do as a woman in the church. I suppose. So, firstly, sorry about that. And then second, I think beyond this entire conversation we're having about specific examples of when church leaders have been taken in by people who weren't being honest or have believed things to be true that weren't true. I think more broadly, there is a problem here with prophets not prophesying, not predicting, not seeing around corners, not seeing things coming. You have Quinton L. Cook sat on the church podcast. I can get you a link to this. But sat on the church news podcast saying, oh, we didn't get revelation. There was going to be a pandemic. He said those words out loud. And you think, well, what's the point of you then? What is if. If profits can see around corners, what is the point when there's a global pandemic of them going, yeah, no, we didn't know. And Russell M. Nelson getting up at that April conference and saying, well, little did I know when I told you it'd be a special conference that, you know, we wouldn't be meeting in person. But why didn't you know? Even if you didn't share it with us, why didn't you know?

Kolby Reddish [00:27:26] Yeah, yeah. Particularly when you look at the model that's in the. Either the Book of Mormon or in early church history. Right. So someone might push back on what you just said, Nemo, and say, like, well, that's just not the way revelation works. But what I would point to is there is a section in the Doctrine of Covenants, I think it's 1 24, where there is a revelation given to Joseph Smith that tells him, supposedly from God, how many shares someone is entitled to for what amount of money in building the Nauvoo House. So we see that level of specificity. Or we could point to the loss of the 116 pages and what the Book of Mormon says about the loss of the 116 pages. Like, you literally have words supposedly being written by Mormon and Moroni about how they're taking these small plates, putting them in with the, you know, their, their work in redacting and compiling everything together and saying, like. And we have no idea why we're doing this, but we're doing it because God is telling us to do it. So for the idea that someone might push back on that and say, well, maybe God wouldn't reveal to them that there would be a pandemic specifically, I may be able to make that allowance. But then I would say, but like, God didn't, like, tell them anything. Like, to not book travel, to not book conferences, to not do any of the type of stuff that we see being at least as recorded being revealed to Joseph Smith and being revealed to Mormon and Moroni. And I could go, we could go through a whole ton of examples where when it is usually after the fact, God is able to give very specific revelation about very specific things. But on the front end, like, to actually be able to foretell or prophesy the future. They don't seem to have that ability, which is pretty ironic given that her claim in that quote is prophets actually see around corners.

Nemo [00:29:20] And we have an entire discussions episode looking at the prophecies of the Book of Mormon and how they all seem to end right around Joseph Smith's time. They all relate to things that Joseph Smith would have known about in his lifetime.

Kolby Reddish [00:29:34] Funny that, isn't it?

Nemo [00:29:35] It is indeed. So we should all go check that out. But I think this is Just a real quick point. This is a microcosm of the problem of evil. In some ways, the problem of evil is that if God can intervene, if he's an interventionist God, then why doesn't he at times? If he intervenes in some cases, why not others? Why does he not alleviate suffering? That essentially. And at the same time. Yeah. If God can get as specific as what shares can be given in order to get Joseph Smith a house in Nauvoo, then why is it a complete erg, you know, like a. Like a flat, windswept desert when it comes to important things, like a global pandemic? Why is it just empty? Nothing, no information?

Julia [00:30:14] Yeah. I also think there's a difference. If the. If the prophet were to have taken action, not knowing why, which is what Nephi was doing, I guess I don't think that's the same as seeing around corners of being a seer and seeing into the future, just preparing for the future. I don't know. I feel like there's a difference there too, but. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so there's another, and I want to share. This is from David h. Moore from 2016, where he's talking about the watchmen on the tower.

Kolby Reddish [00:30:43] The Lord describes the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day

Nemo [00:30:47] Saints as watchmen on the tower. Members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the twelve Apostles are prophets, seers, and revelators in each of these related roles. They, like watchmen on a tower, expand our vision of things of eternal significance. Yep.

Kolby Reddish [00:31:08] See, that. That one's interesting to me because he used the phrase I'm used to, which is like watchmen on a tower. But then he limited it specifically on the back end to things of eternal significance. So that's probably where someone would push back and say, well, where their special gift is to see, Julia, is their special gift to see is only those things of eternal significance. So the things. Yeah, so the things they get wrong are just the things that are not of eternal significance, which means they don't

Nemo [00:31:36] have to actually contend with anything that happens on earth because it's not eternal significance, really, apart from ordinances and temple work. I think where this connects in is where we go back to that scripture that says, to whom the gifted sermon is given, and it's those who are called to watch over the church. And this makes very clear that prophets are called to watch over the church. So they should have the gift of discernment. Julia? Sorry, what were you gonna say?

Julia [00:32:00] I was just gonna say, like, I think things that have internal significance. Like some of these examples that we are. That we're gonna see. I think. I don't have specific cases, but I think some of them cause people to leave their faith and leave the church. And so, like, that is somebody's. That is of eternal significance, is someone's salvation.

Nemo [00:32:16] So argue that scripture is of eternal significance. Right. Canonized church scripture is eternally significant because it, like you said, it impacts the way that people act and make eternal choices.

Kolby Reddish [00:32:27] And I'd actually. I'd actually zoom back a little bit. If someone were to say that and say, but they just claim to be able to see the things of eternal significance. Why would I believe someone who claims to know completely unfalsifiable things when the things that they have claimed on, things that can be falsified can and often have been falsified? Like, it's very convenient that the things that they can't be wrong about are the things that we don't have access to know in any way today. Right. That all of the claims that they make that you're supposed to be able to take to the bank, these things of eternal significance are the things that we can't test. That's very. That's very convenient. Which, to bring it back to how we opened with this overall epistemological point is sometimes a healthy amount of skepticism would cause you to go, should I actually believe the unfalsifiable claims so that they can absolutely get the unfalsifiable claims? Right. When they can't get the basic claims. Right. That's where I would push back.

Julia [00:33:26] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so for. For the rest of this episode, we have sections. I didn't put, like, a contents, but I think there's like three between six and seven examples of times in church history where things happened that the. The what

Kolby Reddish [00:33:42] of 6, 7.

Julia [00:33:44] Yeah, I always thought that's what you were saying. My kid always does that. But yeah, exactly.

Nemo [00:33:49] You two have children and so are

Kolby Reddish [00:33:51] afflicted with such things.

Nemo [00:33:52] I have just reminded on occasion.

The Book of Abraham and Michael Chandler

Julia [00:33:56] Okay, so on that note. So the first one. The first one I want to talk about is the book of Abraham. This is in 1835.

Nemo [00:34:04] John's analytics in that age group are just going to go like this now.

Julia [00:34:11] They said, okay, so this is from church history. I don't know if we need to read the whole thing, but in there's a journal entry where on July 3rd of 1835, Michael Chandler came to Kirtland and he brought four mummies and then two or more rolls of parch of papyrus and they were covered with hieroglyphics like hieroglyphics figures and devices. Mr. Chandler told, had been told that Joseph Smith could translate them and he brought them to to give them to him. And then another part of this was just like three days later it says that the roles contain the writing of Joseph Smith. Said, here, I'll just read the whole thing. It says purchase of the Egyptian mummies. Soon after this, some of the saints at Courland purchased the mummies and papyrus, a description of which will appear hereafter. And I, with William W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, commenced translation of some of the characters. The translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, I don't know if that's okay. And much to our joy, found that one of the rolls contained the writing of Abraham, another the writing of Joseph of Egypt, etc. A more full account of which will appear in their place as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly, can we say the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth. So he's saying that one of the rolls of parchment is Abraham and the other one is Joseph in Egypt. And he's going to commence with a translation soon.

Kolby Reddish [00:35:40] If we can just pause there for a second. I know I've made this point before when we've talked about this story, but it's amazing to me how often Joseph Smith claimed to find these like miraculous once in a lifetime artifacts. The idea that we're going to find that he's going to in Kirtland, Ohio, come across two rolls of parchment and one of them belongs to Abraham and the other belongs to Joseph out of Egypt, is just so incredible if you were to like calculate the odds of that actually happening, it beggars belief. But like this is, this is actually one of the areas where I think that we can see Dan Vogel's like pious fraud theory, which we talked about in a little bit in the episode last, last time that we filmed last month, about information density. We can see it following through in the sense that I think Joseph Smith really did have some legitimate belief that he was able to find these magical artifacts to, to this like insane rate that no one else in history would have access to. I mean, he has access to more, to put it bluntly, like he has access to more magical significant artifacts than like even Jesus Christ encountered during his lifetime. Think about what that means, right? It's like he can't walk outside without tripping over an ancient document or some special magic Stone or, you know, just all of these different artifacts that he is alleged to have encountered in his lifetime.

Nemo [00:37:12] If, if you've suspended your disbelief when it comes to the gold plates and his translation thereof, then all of this stuff becomes perfectly plausible. One of the things that apologists will often say is. Or in fact, if we look at how Alex o' Connor addressed Mormonism when he said there's actually more witnesses for the Book of Mormon than there are for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. His point is, if you're looking for witnesses, then there's actually better evidence for the Book of Mormon than there is for Jesus Christ. If that's your metric. And similarly, if your belief system, if your epistemology is that, or yeah, I guess underlying your belief system is that Joseph Smith finds ancient artifacts and can translate them, then you're not going to question how many of them he tends to find. And if you believe that God is putting them there, then I guess the point is it's worth speaking to the ways in which this is perfectly plausible to people.

Julia [00:38:06] Well, and then one of the mummies, if I remember correctly, was he identified one of them as a princess of, like, one of the Kutumen, a daughter of the pharaoh, a pharaoh knightess, I think. And so again, that's just like he's just finding all these. These important people. Yeah. Okay, so going forward, because we. Again, we're not going into depth on these, because these have. We've done. Most of these, I think, have been covered already, and I'll leave those in the show notes. But the Book of Abraham was canonized as part of the Pearl of great price in 1880. From that time, prophets and apostles have spoken again and again about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham and how it was written by his own hand. And then I have a picture of Spencer Kimball with his talk, one of his talks that where he reiterates this. And I didn't pull out any specific quotes because this happens all the time. Like, this is just right.

Kolby Reddish [00:38:56] And the reason that the Book of Abraham is so important is because it helps build Joseph Smith's legitimacy as a translator. The first gift that Joseph Smith was given was as a translator. And, you know, there's the. There's been this recent apologetic movement to basically say, oh, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, they weren't translations, they were revelations. To me, this is like a distinction without a difference. The story has always been that Joseph Smith was translating by revelation. And I feel like we talked about this a lot in our last episode. So I won't go there again, except to say one of the reasons that the Book of Abraham is being offered up this way by prophets and apostles is because if you can build people's. If you can build in people's mind the legitimacy of Joseph Smith as a translator through the pattern of the Book of Abraham, and they'll do the same thing with the Kinderhook plates, and I know we'll talk about that soon. You build faith in the Book of Mormon because you make it more plausible because of Joseph Smith's other, you know, quote unquote successful translation projects.

Julia [00:40:03] Yeah. Okay. So then an article was published in the New York Times in 1912. Colby, do you want to read this one?

Kolby Reddish [00:40:11] I do. Within three months, the only one of these sacred writings in which the test of scholarship could be applied has been submitted to such a test, and its authenticity has been destroyed completely. The walls of the Egyptian rooms of the Metropolitan Museum proclaim it to be a fraud. Dr. Albert M. Lithgow, curator of the Egyptian Department, voices unequivocally the condemnatory evidence of the mute Egyptian drawings and hieroglyphics. Two eminent scholars in England, two scholars in German, and four of the most noted Egyptologists in this country join without a dissenting paragraph in the condemnation. The sacred Mormon text was susceptible of accurate and complete analysis from the simple fact that it was taken from a genuine Egyptian original. The translation was a work of the Mormon prophet's curious imagining. And for more on that, so this piece was in the New York Times in 1912 that basically looked at the facsimiles, looked at the translation. So for folks who want to use the apologetic of, well, maybe there are some lost scrolls or missing scrolls or we don't have all the scrolls, this makes this not matter at all. You don't even have to get into missing scroll theories because the facsimiles themselves, as you know, canonized and put into the scriptures as created or recreated through a wood cutting by Joseph Smith and by the people who are working with Joseph Smith, that can be translated. And so it really doesn't matter which scrolls they came from when we have a claim translation from Joseph Smith. And as these scholars that helped or were published in the New York Times say the translation was a work of the Mormon prophets. Curious imagination for people who are interested in this. I know there's a ton of material on the Book of Abraham, but I would also point them to what we talked about, which is the grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian language in our last LDS discussions episode, because the Bottom line is not only are the translations wrong, Joseph Smith's conception of the way Egyptian worked is fundamentally wrong from top to bottom. He believed that it worked in these different degrees and that you could add a slight flourish onto different characters and it would increase the character meaning. So where a character may be at the first degree may mean like a man, and then at the third degree may mean a king, and then at the fifth degree, the same character might mean a God. There's nothing like that in the way Egyptian works. So I think this statement in the New York Times in 1912 that the translation was a work of the Mormon prophet's curious imagination has been really vindicated by additional time. I mean, this was a hundred years ago, and the case against the Book of Abraham has gotten much stronger and not in favor of Joseph Smith, but stronger against Joseph Smith as an actual legitimate translator.

Nemo [00:42:57] Yeah. And it's a very simple rebuttal because the way to rebut it is very simple. You can't argue that Joseph wasn't actually translating it because what he said when the, the text relates to itself in that the Book of Abraham talks about the facsimiles included and talks about them, so it connects them. Right. The text of the, of the scripture talks about the facsimiles. So they're connected. And then Joseph claims to give a translation of them, and it's there in scripture. It's very simple. But apologists need it to be more complicated because you have to sort of hide in the, in the complexity of it, because if it's really that simple, then.

Kolby Reddish [00:43:36] And some of these facsimiles have words and characters that are translated supposedly by Joseph Smith on them themselves. So this, this facsimile, the one that's at the very bottom of the page there, that's facsimile three. And it is a, like a presentation scene. And you can see it. It's very small, but you can see there are like characters that are the names of those different figures in that facsimile. And all of those are just a complete invention and imagination. None of them line up at all with the translation of actual Egyptian text.

Julia [00:44:11] Yeah. So one thing I really think is interesting is how this is published in 1912 and the Church, to my knowledge, didn't come out with any kind of response. And my might be correct on this, incorrect on this, but they didn't write their Gospel topics essay until 2013. And I remember specifically I was on my mission during 2013, and somebody we had had with members and as we were Leaving the door, walking on the door. The dad turns to us and he was like, did you guys know that the church admitted that Joseph didn't translate the Book of Abraham at all? Like, it's just made up. And I was like, my brain glitched. And I was like, I'm going to tuck that away and not look at that. Because I couldn't process what he was saying, but I think he was referring to these essays. Nima, do you want to read what it says?

Nemo [00:44:58] Yeah, sure. None of the characters on the papyrus fragments mentioned Abraham's name or any of the events recorded in the Book of Abraham. These fragments date to between the 3rd century BCE and the 1st century CE, long after Abraham lived.

Julia [00:45:15] Yeah. So they're saying none of the characters mention Abraham and they're actually dated way later. And then the essay goes on to say, Nemo. Do you want to continue?

Nemo [00:45:24] Yeah. Some have assumed that the hieroglyphs adjacent to and surrounding facsimile one must be a source for the text of the Book of Abraham. But this claim rests on the assumption that a vignette and its adjacent text must be associated in meaning. As I alluded to earlier, that is anything but an assumption. That is, however, what the Book of Abraham says. In the book of Abraham 1:12, it points the reader directly to the facsimile. I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record. The church wants to disconnect the papyrus with the text, but they are connected by Joseph Smith or whoever you believe the author of the text to be.

Julia [00:46:03] Right? Yeah. So the church is trying to separate those two, but they.

Nemo [00:46:08] Oh, and so it's. It says. And that you may have a knowledge of this altar, I will refer you to the representation. So it's very specifically pointing to that altar where he names the different noctic jars.

Julia [00:46:18] And I think this is all that sort of stuff. Is that this one here?

Kolby Reddish [00:46:22] Yeah, I think they're canopic jars.

Nemo [00:46:25] Yeah. However you pronounce that.

Julia [00:46:27] So the text is specifically tied to these images.

Kolby Reddish [00:46:32] Again, I guess my point is, even if it wasn't, it really doesn't matter because the facsimiles themselves. At least facsimile 3 has text on it anyways. Like, the facsimile itself has text on it that is captured in the facsimile and translated incorrectly by Joseph Smith. So all of that, all of that side issue is a complete obfuscation by the church. You can sidestep it entirely by just saying Facsimile 3 has Egyptian characters on it. That are completely mistranslated by Joseph Smith. End of story.

Julia [00:47:06] Yeah, yeah.

Nemo [00:47:08] Very hyper selfless. He got it wrong.

Julia [00:47:10] Yeah. Okay, so that's, that's what I have on the Book of Abraham. And then the next one I want to talk about is the Kinderhook plates. And this is from 1843.

Kolby Reddish [00:47:18] Can I pause you with one last note? Is you started. You started the story about the Book of Abraham with Michael Chandler. It's also worth noting that Joseph Smith received a certificate from Michael Chandler when he bought the mummies and the papyrus that talked about how legitimate Joseph Smith's translation was. And this again comes back to this overarching epistemological point, which is what I really hope people draw from this episode is when you want things to be true so badly, it leaves you vulnerable to frauds. Who, who stood to benefit from Joseph Smith and the saints spending a huge sum of money in those days and age from buying those mummies and papyrus. Michael Chandler. Who does Joseph Smith trust to tell him how awesome he is? Michael Chandler. That's the problem that we're talking about here is when you don't apply a base level of skepticism and test these claims for yourself, test people's claims for yourself, it leaves you vulnerable to frauds. Michael Chandler. No one could translate. Joseph could translate Egyptian in that day and age period. The Rosetta Stone was just being cracked. It wasn't even finished until like a decade or two later. Like, the work on it wasn't completely finished. And my point is, it's just very telling that Joseph Smith relies on things like affidavits from some guy who has no way to know whether he's translating the Egyptian correctly or not. But yet, you know, it's in History of the Church. It's in. It's on the Joseph Smith papers. You can read it today about how Michael Chandler is telling you Joseph Smith did the best translation ever. It's just, it just shows kind of this broken epistemology that you adopt if you're required to continue believing this system.

Julia [00:48:57] Yeah, I had that slide in there and then I threw it out because I was like, I don't know what this adds because this. The man who's selling him the mummies and wants to profit off the mummies and the scrolls is saying, oh, yeah, these are totally, you know, this is totally authentic or totally correct. Like, I was just like, oh, this isn't needed. But like, but you're right that the. Joseph was so willing to, to want so desirous to have these affidavits and. And certificates and things like that. So. Yeah, yeah.

The Kinderhook Plates Fraud

Kolby Reddish [00:49:23] Okay, let's do Kinderhook plates.

Julia [00:49:27] Okay. So this one's from the Times and Seasons. And there was also. There was. So a lot of times the newspapers borrow from other newspapers. And this is originally published in the Quincy Wig, and it says the Kinderhook plates were exhibited in this city last week. And this is dated May 1st of 1843 and are now, we understand, in Nauvoo, subject to the inspection of the Mormon prophet. The public curiosity is greatly excited, and if Smith can decipher the hieroglyphics on the plates, he will do more towards throwing light on the early history of this continent than any man now living.

Nemo [00:49:57] Well, that's grandiose, is it not?

Julia [00:49:59] Very.

Kolby Reddish [00:50:00] And look at how it starts, though. So this was published May 1, 1843. Circumstances are daily transpiring which give additional testimony to the authenticity of the Book of. Of Mormon. A few moments ago I made this comment. This is about vindicating Joseph Smith's claim to have translated the Book of Mormon. And here the Times and Seasons makes that point for me. This is the. This is why Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates are offered as evidence for Joseph Smith's calling is because it helps. If they were legitimate translations, it helps vindicate his calling as a translator.

Julia [00:50:34] Yeah, maybe you can get two wrong and then one right. And anyway, maybe. So this next one is from William Clayton's journal, Colby. Do you want to read this one?

Kolby Reddish [00:50:46] Sure. Monday or May 1, 1843, Monday afternoon at President Joseph's. I have seen six brass plates which were found in Adams County. President Joseph has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. And he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt. By the way, Pharaoh means king and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth. One would expect that if you were actually translating Egyptian, you would understand that Pharaoh means king, but, you know, that's not the way it worked for Joseph.

Julia [00:51:21] Yeah, but again, this is like a grandiose thing. This is a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh, like who received.

Nemo [00:51:29] Of course, it's not just a random person.

Julia [00:51:31] No, not at all.

Nemo [00:51:32] No.

Julia [00:51:34] Yeah. And this is from William Klein's own journal. So I guess some of the. Some of the. Is a discrepancy with the church history is that some of the language was changed later or it was written. It was trying to be written in first person as if coming from the mouth of Joseph. And I think that's one of the. One of the struggles with. That is. But this one is Willing Plain's journal. And he has. He is writing these journals contemporaneously. I think the only argument that people can have is that he didn't. Maybe he didn't write this specifically on May 1st of 1843, but maybe shortly around that time. But I don't know if those actually hold up. That's my understanding. Yeah, that's my understanding of why people don't accept William Klain's journal, but I don't think that's really good evidence. And I've had historians tell me, like John Turner, he's like, no, I don't see these. I see these as credible. So I don't. I don't know why people would argue.

Kolby Reddish [00:52:21] It's also worth noting when it's. When he says that President Joseph Smith translated a portion of this. We talked about this in this last episode. So I just want to link these. He did that by using the grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian language. Like the scholars of the Joseph Smith Papers Project point directly to that and say, this is what he did. This is what he used when the Kinderhook plates came out, is he went and grabbed the grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian language to use it to translate a single character.

Julia [00:52:47] Yeah. And actually, that's what this next slide is.

Kolby Reddish [00:52:49] Oh, perfect.

Julia [00:52:50] Yeah. So this is from the New York Herald. And this was the letter. Was. This is an anonymous letter from a Gentile. And it was. The letter was dated May 7, but it was printed May 30 of 1843. And it says another set of plates have been found in pike county in the state. The plates are evidently brass and are covered on both sides with hieroglyphics. They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them in my presence. And this is the person speaking, this anonymous person. He compared them in my presence with his Egyptian Alphabet, which he took from the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated. And they are evidently the same characters. I think that person maybe meant Book of Abraham.

Kolby Reddish [00:53:28] But, yeah, if they were an outsider, they may not have understood the difference.

Julia [00:53:31] Right.

Nemo [00:53:32] But the key is they saw him consulting a document.

Julia [00:53:36] Right.

Nemo [00:53:37] Characters.

Kolby Reddish [00:53:39] Right.

Julia [00:53:39] I don't know if all of it's necessary to read the rest of it. He therefore will be able to translate that, decipher them. There can be no doubt but that they are a record of some kind buried with an individual centuries ago. A Skeleton was found with them some bones. And he's talking about the large proportion of this skeleton's really big. But yeah. So again, he's comparing from the. Again, I think this is book of Abraham, the Gael, the grammar in Egyptian Alphabet in his presence to these kinderhood plates.

Nemo [00:54:05] Yep.

Kolby Reddish [00:54:05] It's worth noting too. It continues and says that the bones that they found this person must have been a height of eight and a half feet. You may expect something very remarkable pretty soon. So this just hooks into a lot of pseudoscience nonsense that was floating around in Joseph Smith's milieu. The belief that there were actually real giants that lived. I don't know if either of you believe in real giants. I feel pretty confident that neither of you do. But this just outside NBA players

Julia [00:54:38] or the Guinness broke of world records. Like, I recognize that there are people who.

Nemo [00:54:42] I mean, I spend a fair bit of time in Utah and so I feel like I'm amongst giants to some. Sometimes everyone's about seven foot tall. I'm not sure why, but yeah, eight and a half is pushing it, you know.

Kolby Reddish [00:54:51] Yeah. My point is it just helps show the epistemology that was present in these early. These people that were part of the early church, you know, goings on. Like they believed in this world. We talked about this when we talked about the Stone Box episode. They believed in a world of magic, of disappearing treasure, of sinking treasure, of hidden treasure, of giants. Like they believed in all of these things. And I'm not saying that that automatically means that they should be disbelieved. I'm just saying it is a context into which you have to wade if you want to understand how to place their testimony in its proper context.

Julia [00:55:29] Right, yeah.

Nemo [00:55:30] Which apologists are always crying Context.

Kolby Reddish [00:55:33] Right.

Nemo [00:55:33] Always crying. Oh, you're taking things out of context. You're not viewing things. You're excising presentism. Well, we're not here. We're looking at what people at the time believed and what they believed allowed them to then believe Claims that Joseph Smith made, which have since been proved false by further understanding of things like the Egyptian language, which weren't present at the time. So between knowing that Egyptian and ancient languages weren't very well understood, particularly Egyptian was not understood. It was the language that no one knew. Plus the magical worldview of many of the people of this time leads people to go that, you know, it's definitely. It's evidently the same characters. There can be no doubt. But they are a record of some kind, buried with an individual centuries ago. I Have doubts and I think we can go to the next slide and hear all about them.

Julia [00:56:23] Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [00:56:24] Oh I, I can read this one, Julia. So for people who don't know kind of the sub, I feel like we've talked about the Kinderhooks plates details, but maybe not giving people a good introduction if they haven't heard about what the whole thing is. So in Kinderhook, Illinois or near Kinderhook, Illinois, there basically were some, I would call them even like early anti Mormons that generated fake plates. Six set of bell shaped plates, they were very small to try and on purpose deceive the Mormons. And we've actually got one of the confession letters from one of those conspirators that we're going to read here in just a minute. So that's what we've been talking about when we're talking about the Kinderhook plates. The Kinderhook plates since have been proven to have been a fraud, exactly like they were admitted to by one of these conspirators. So here is his letter. I received your letter in regard to those plates and will say in answer that they are a humbug or a joke gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitten and myself. Whitten is dead. I do not know whether Wiley is or not. None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret except Wiley and I. The nine persons being the nine people who helped say, here's what we found. Here's where we found it. Here's what we found it. With we read in Pratt's prophecy that truth is yet to spring up out of the earth. We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them. Bridge, Whitten cut them the plates out of some pieces of copper. Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished, we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead and bound them with a piece of iron hoop covering them completely with the rust. Our plans worked admirably. So he wrote this letter on June 30, 1879 and hilariously, Julia, I guess the rest of the slides are going to talk about this. But he wasn't believed, which is crazy to me.

Julia [00:58:17] So I just want to point out the dates. So 1879. And then, you know, that's 36 years later if I'm not mistaken. From 43.

Speaker D [00:58:26] Yeah.

Julia [00:58:26] Okay, so, yeah, so Just he doesn't confess until 36 years later. Well, that's fair enough.

Nemo [00:58:32] Just before you go to that, I think there's a link here to be made in the same way as Josiah Stoll was in a courtroom with people saying, look, this is the guy who's defrauding you and we're trying to prove that. And he goes, nope, I believe him. Similarly, when the Church is presented with this later on, as we've alluded to, you're going to see the same sort of behavior of, well, no, it's so important that we maintain our belief system. It's so important that we maintain our worldview that we're willing to deny admissions by people that they were doing certain things.

Julia [00:59:08] Yeah, so I was. As I was doing this research, I found two, what I thought were two very important Church Ensign and New Era articles. And so I've shared them in full, like little visuals at the bottom of these. But I just pulled out the important parts. So the Improvement Era published. In the Improvement Era published In September of 1962, the church wrote an article defending the Kinderhook plates. This is after this man has already said these are fake. I helped create them. They said that because Fugate came out so late in declaring the plates a humbug, that it is unlikely that the plates were fakes. Plate 5 had been found and testing on the plates had been done. Fugate claimed that the plates had been etched, but the two professional engravers stated that instead the plates had been engraved. This test proved the Kinderhook plates were genuine and that Smith was a true prophet. So that's what. So 1962.

Nemo [01:00:04] Doubt your doubts, we doubt your faith, I guess.

Julia [01:00:07] And then in looking, I found another article in August of 1981. So that's like 20 years later, the Church published an article in the Ensign. The article talks about the recent destructive testing done on one of the plates as a result, quote, as a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate owned by the Chicago Historical Society is not of ancient origin, unquote. They also argued against the William Clayton's journal that says Joseph Smith translated a portion of them. The Church concluded by saying, quote, joseph Smith needs no defense. He simply did not fall for this king.

Kolby Reddish [01:00:40] This is just so absurd. You can't have it both ways. Like to say that he translated them and that this helps vindicate him in the 60s. And then less than 20 years later, 19 years later, saying that Joseph Smith needs no defense because he didn't fall for the scheme like those two. Those are blatant contradictions. And it's worth noting that Welby Ricks, at the time he wrote it, at least I'm looking at it on archive.org, it says, President University Archaeological Society, BYU. It's worth noting the very first words after the article is introduced, says a recent rediscovery of one of the Kinderhook plates, which was examined by Joseph Smith Jr. Reaffirms his prophetic calling and reveals the false statements made by one of the finders.

Julia [01:01:26] Yep, there you go. That's funny. Yeah.

Nemo [01:01:31] So, and Joseph Smith Jr. Pronounced them genuine and translated a part of them that is, well, B.W. rex. Right? That's what Correct. He said. Okay, yeah, that's crazy. So then for then Kimball to come along, not general authority Kimball, but History Professor Kimball, for him to come along 20 years later and say he didn't fall for the scheme, well, this is a question of authority. And I think this is perhaps why no general authority has put their name to this. Because it's like, well, who are we to believe? They're both official church publications. They both went through the correlation department, they both were given the go ahead to be published and they're directly contradictory. Yeah, so sorry, that was just worth with putting a fine point on, I feel definitely.

Julia [01:02:20] That's good. Yeah, thank you for that. So, yeah, so that's all I have on the Kinderhook plates. And so the next topic.

Kolby Reddish [01:02:27] Can I. Can I read the conclusion of that original piece, the one from 62?

Julia [01:02:33] Absolutely.

Kolby Reddish [01:02:34] He ends and this is how he closes. The plates are now back in their original category of genuine. What scholars may learn from this ancient record in future years or what may be translated by divine power is an exciting thought to contemplate. This much remains. Joseph Smith Jr. Stands as a true prophet and translator of ancient records by divine means. And all the world is invited to investigate the truth which has sprung forth out of the earth not only of the Kinderhook plates, but of the Book of Mormon as well. So again, my comment at the beginning of this show saying that the reason that people keep falling for this is because they need additional data points to vindicate Joseph Smith as a translator. You can see the through line very clearly in the way they've written these things. They think that it is important to vindicate Joseph Smith on the Kinderhook plates because it helps bolster his claims for the Book of Mormon.

Nemo [01:03:26] But then I have a question about modern prophets, which is if they claim the same prophetic mantle that Joseph Smith had Then why are they not getting hold of these kind of plates and finishing off the translation? Well, why are they not giving us the rest of it? Yeah, but in the 60s.

Kolby Reddish [01:03:41] No, you're right.

Nemo [01:03:42] Yes, they'd got hold of them, they'd examined them. They wanted to test their authenticity. Well, then take. Take it the whole way. Give us a translation of what Joseph Smith never managed to finish translating because he was, you know, too busy doing other things. Like running from the law.

Julia [01:03:57] Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [01:03:58] Also marrying teenagers, but, yeah, all that good stuff.

Nemo [01:04:02] So, yeah, maybe that's what we could expect. And I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. I know apologists and other people who try and defend the Church would paint that as an unreasonable thing. Oh, you're just being petty. You're just trying to stir the part. You're. You're asking for things you shouldn't be asking for. But what. It seems pretty simple. If they're claiming to be prophets, if they're saying. Claiming the same prophetic mantle that Joseph Smith had or the same abilities, then should be easy.

Julia [01:04:27] Well, and kind of on the same veins, the Church has Joseph Smith's brown seer stone, and the Book of Mormon has not been translated into every language that exists in the world. And so if that is a real thing, and these are prophets, seers and revelators, there's 15 of them. I think they all have that title. Why do we not have the Book of Mormon in every single language?

Nemo [01:04:47] Like, yeah, why is it? And why is it for translations to the Book of Mormon? This is really interesting. If you go look at the Church's website under translations of the Book of Mormon, it's the language that's used around the Book of Mormon. It talks about translations, retranslations in all these other languages. It talks about the English edition as editions. Yeah. 1830 edition, 1837 edition, etc. So the language around it is different. And you do ask the question, why is the Book of Mormon in German translated, say, or the Book of Mormon in Welsh translated by men who sit down and do a traditional translation? When the Book of Mormon into English from the original ancient language was done through the gift and power of God, why is it not being done the same way? Why are they relying on secular means for all the other languages? But English is so special.

Kolby Reddish [01:05:38] Yeah, yeah, it's a good point.

The Salamander Letter and Church Response

Julia [01:05:43] Okay, so the next topic that we have is the. The Salamander, what is known as the Salamander Letter. So this is happening in 1984. Although the letter is dated 1830.

Nemo [01:05:53] Sure.

Kolby Reddish [01:05:54] So for this passage or for this section, I would suggest people keep in mind the way that Elder Bednar said that the spirit of discernment helps you sense hidden evil and hidden bad motivation, something like that in other people. Because error and evil. That's right. Error and evil.

Julia [01:06:13] Yes.

Nemo [01:06:14] We've seen error. We've seen error so far with the Book of Abraham and Kinderhook plates. Not necessarily evil. I don't think the fraudsters of the Kinderook plates were evil. But here we may see some.

Julia [01:06:26] Right. So this is. This is the letter. This is the white. The salamander letter. This is. So in church history, you have in the. In the 80s, this man named Mark Hoffman, he started dealing with rare documents, and he started finding them and selling them and trying to get people to buy them. He found a poem by Emily Dickinson. And I remember this story where somebody. He was trying to have someone buy it, and he was like. He's like, don't you think it's true? Don't you think it's really from her? And he's like, well, I do, but it's her worst poem, which I thought was kind of funny, but. But this is his. He's. He's found this letter and he's trying to get. I think he's trying. He's seeking to have the church leaders buy it from him.

Nemo [01:07:03] And so there is a parallel between Mark Hoffman and Joseph Smith here is that they both seem to not be able to go anywhere without just tripping over ancient documents. Right?

Julia [01:07:14] Yes.

Nemo [01:07:14] The amount of things that Mark Hoffman claimed to find and that again, to just tie all this in with what Colby's been saying, that triggered alarm bells for some people, that when he's finding too many rare and significant things.

Kolby Reddish [01:07:26] Right.

Julia [01:07:27] Yeah.

Nemo [01:07:27] And again, if you apply the same logic to Joseph Smith, those same alarm bells ought to be wrong.

Julia [01:07:32] Yeah. Okay, so I don't think I want to read this whole letter in full again. We've covered this topic before, but there are some passages that I have highlighted that from my experience, I've seen these elsewhere in history and other documents, not just this letter. And so one of them is Joseph can see anything he wishes by looking into a stone. The church has confirmed. The church has the stone. The church has confirmed that that is the process that Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon. And then on this next page, it says, but only just he was able to get those here stone or get the plates he built. But he only just got it because of an enchantment that was on the plates. The Spirit hitting him three times or coming three times? Excuse me, that was a different story. The Spirit coming to him three times. These are all things that we know from church history. And then I highlighted and read the part that's. That's different. So it says the Spirit. The spirit transfigured. He's going to get the plates. The spirit transfigured himself from a white salamander in the bottom of the hole and struck me three times and held the treasure and would not let me have it. And then he goes on to. This is Martin Harris telling the story. And then he says that you have to bring your brother Alvin to come. And we know that from history. And Joseph says, he is dead. Shall I bring what remains? And then in church history, we have Joseph Smith's dad, who's publishing an article, republishing it again and again concerning his son Alvin. He was worried that they were going to exhume his body, so he. They were watching over him. And anyway, so they were kind of putting a warning out there. But this is this all. These are all parts of history that are. That are accurate, except what I have highlighted in red. And then Joseph, the story goes that instead of Alvin, he looks into the seer stone and sees that it's. He should bring his wife. And then they talk about taking these, some of the characters to Mitchell and he introduces them to Professor Anthon. And then Joseph, he says that. Joseph, Martin Harris supposedly says that Joseph Smith found giant spectacles with the plates and he puts them into a hat and is able to translate. And these are stories that we have from other sources. So this is like whoever created this or wherever this came from, coming supposedly from Martin Harris certainly knew their church history. And so I just wanted to point out those different things and then highlight the salamander.

Kolby Reddish [01:09:37] Yeah. So one of the geniuses of how Mark Hoffman was able to sell so many of these fraudulent documents is exactly what you just talked about, Julia, is that huge. He knew all of these different story beats and lines from other church history documents. So I think there's. I can't remember if it's a second or a third HAD account, but that describes Moroni as like, resembling a toad or something like that. And so what Mark Hoffman was doing is he knew these documents well enough that he was hooking into things that people would find more or less credible. Except for adding the bit about the White Salamander letter. I think that's one of the ways, aside from, like the science behind you know, reproducing the paper and aging the paper and aging the ink. That's one of the ways he was able to be so successful as this counterfeiter of these documents is he knew this history well enough that he was making it believable. Except for the things that he was adding.

Julia [01:10:37] Right, exactly. And then there's this quote from Gordon B. Hinckley. So fair Latter Day Saints claim that in his journal, Gordon B. Hinckley wrote on February 19th of 1984, we have nothing to hide. Our enemies will try to make much of this letter, but any fair minded individual who will read it in terms of the time it was written and the language of the day will not see it as detrimental to the history of those events connected with the restoration of the gospel. The article goes on to say that President Hinckley was aware that the letter could be used as a weapon against the church, but he did not move to buy it and did nothing to prevent it passing into other hands. And I think, I think he's right. I think if people, because there's so many, like having now left the church and having reviewed a lot of these documents, we have stories of Martin Harris where he says that he walked. He was talking, walking and talking with Jesus in the form of a deer. Jesus was a deer. Or that he felt like there was a devil sitting on his chest and, and different things like that, where he. Or the lights flickering and he thought the devil was trying to stop him from reading his scriptures or things like that. Where it's like people can know those things but still accept Martin Harris as a credible witness. And so I think Hinckley's right that if people want to believe, they can dismiss this or still believe anyway, because like you said, Colby, there's that reference of him being a toad and people still believe the church. So anyway, I wasn't sure if you guys have thoughts on that one.

Kolby Reddish [01:12:07] No, I think we're ready to keep going.

Nemo [01:12:09] Well, I think, I think it's trying again to sidestep the issue. It's trying to paint Gordon B. Hinckley in some way as having won or seen through Hoffman or anything like that. All he's saying is like, yeah, I know this letter seems weird and I didn't try and buy it. I didn't try and hide it from the world. It's like, cool, great, Gordon, but. But actually we know the church did ultimately make moves to buy it.

Kolby Reddish [01:12:33] I said no. But I do actually have one thought, if you'll go back. It's interesting that because this is supposedly taken from Hinckley's journal. He says our enemies will try to make much of this letter. It's very telling to me, since we're kind of making these comments about the overall epistemology of this system, of the people involved in this system, them. It's very interesting to me that he uses that word, our enemies. Like this is. This is a historical question. And to think of it in those terms, like, we have nothing to hide. Our enemies are going to have a field day with this, I think just reveals a lot about where his headspace is at. Like, if. If someone were to read. Let's say that the White Salamander letter would have been legitimate and someone were to read it and decide, well, on the basis of that, I just. I just don't believe in the claims of the Restoration anymore. Does that make them an enemy? It just seems to me that that's just such a binary way of looking at the world. Like, choosing to apply a little bit of skepticism and not believing in the claims of the Church because of that doesn't make you an enemy of the Church.

Julia [01:13:44] This also, you pointing out that we have nothing to hide. That also reminds me of Joseph F. Smith. Who tore. Was it Joseph F or Joseph Fielding? He tore. He came across Joseph Smith's earliest first vision account, tore it out of the book, and then put it in his safe. So he. To my. What that looks like is he's hiding something. And so, like, it's just interesting that Hinckley is now saying we have nothing to hide. Whereas. And then, of course, it becomes world news that Joseph Smith is a polygamist in 2013. There's just several instances where you could argue that the Church was hiding things. But anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there.

Kolby Reddish [01:14:17] But, yeah, including the Searstones, like, they literally had the seer stones in a vault the whole time.

Julia [01:14:23] Right. But, yeah, the binary of enemy or not enemy is right.

Kolby Reddish [01:14:28] And I do think it was Joseph Fielding Smith, because it's Fielding F and then Fielding. Okay.

Speaker D [01:14:32] Yeah.

Julia [01:14:32] Yeah.

Nemo [01:14:33] Okay.

Julia [01:14:34] So on April 28th of 1985, the first presidency released a statement, part of which reads, no one, of course, can be certain that Martin Harris wrote the document. However, at this point, we accept the judgment of the examiner that there is no indication that it is a forgery. This does not preclude the possibility that it may have been forged at a time when the Church had many enemies. It is, however, an interesting document of the times.

Nemo [01:14:59] Yes. So the point is, it could still be fake, but it's fake of the time. They have not spotted the truth.

Julia [01:15:08] But that first sentence, no one, of course, of course can be certain that Martin Harris wrote the document.

Nemo [01:15:14] You could be as prophets per chance.

Julia [01:15:17] So I want to make this super clear. I'm going to blow this up so you guys can see this is this, this image of Mark Hoffman here, look. So this is everybody, Mark Hoffman and Eldon Tanner, Spencer W. Kimmel in the middle with a magnifying glass, Marion G. Romney, Gordon B. Hinckley pointing to the scriptures and then Boyd K. Packer in the back. Just to be super clear, you have Mark Hoffman, who is the fraud. You have an apostle, a prophet, an apostle and apostle and another apostle.

Kolby Reddish [01:15:43] And not just a fraud, he's a murderer. Like he's a serial murderer. And to this, you know, this proposition that the Holy Ghost or the spirit of discernment can reveal to you evil motivations or errors in people. Like this picture itself is just so condemnatory of that idea. Yeah.

Nemo [01:16:03] He's not just like the Kinderhook plates guys who are playing a prank on Joseph or trying to, you know, cause a little bit of trouble. This guy killed people. He blew people up.

Julia [01:16:13] Yeah, I just. No one of course, but they, but he's standing in a room full of these people who have this gift of discernment, who have the ability to discern evil and error. And you know, but they're like, let's run it back.

Nemo [01:16:26] Joseph Smith gets the kinder plates and immediately declares what they are and who they pertain to. He gets the scrolls, he immediately declares what they are and who they pertain to. Why are these men not getting this letter and being able to immediately go, yeah, no, Martin Harris did in fact write this document.

Kolby Reddish [01:16:45] It's also very telling that the reason they're framing it so carefully is because it has negative implications for believing in the Restorations narrative. They would not be doing. Exactly. They would not be doing this hedging if this was something that like unquestionably favored Joseph Smith or favored the claims of the Restoration.

Nemo [01:17:04] Yeah, this was a message that definitely proved Brigham Young should be the successor to Joseph Smith. Yeah, there'd be no doubt, would there?

Kolby Reddish [01:17:12] Yeah, they would just lead off with we accept the judgment of the examiner or there are no reasons to believe it's a forgery. Instead they're trying to leave the door open because they want people to. This is like the same thing they do with the missing scrolls theory of the Book of Abraham we talked about a minute ago. They want to keep that Door open for people to be able to continue believing without having to just believe in one theory. It's like multiple choice of how you can continue to believe in what you started believing all along.

Nemo [01:17:40] Because it doesn't have to be a good response always, there just has to be a response.

Julia [01:17:44] I also think. I also want to say that I think belief is really resilient because I think that if this had been proven to be authentic or if they just immediately said this is authentic and Mark Hoffman got away with it, I don't know that it would have actually hurt a lot of people's testimonies, just. And I'm saying that just because of the other things that are part of church history. The church believes that Joseph Smith saw those things in the rock that he put in his hat, like that an angel appeared to him with a flaming sword. Like I. There are some things that I think are kind of wild beliefs, but I think people will believe anyway.

Nemo [01:18:17] The church is taking a hammering from the revelation of these beliefs, these beliefs coming to light through the Internet, not because of the beliefs themselves, but because the church lied about them for so long. That's why people leave. That's why they're taking the hammering in membership numbers from all this. It's not that these things are actually unbelievable or that they're even necessarily challenging to Joseph Smith's claims. Someone describing a spirit as a white salamander, Delaney jokes defense of it, which I believe we're going to get to, perfectly illustrates how this can be turned into something faith promoting.

Julia [01:18:50] Yeah, yeah. Well, before we get there, I have another one I want to share. Nemo, do you want to read this one?

Speaker D [01:18:56] Sure.

Nemo [01:18:57] Gordon B. Hinckley wrote, as most of you know, recently there have been great stirrings over two old letters. One was purportedly written in 1825 by Joseph Smith to Josiah Stowell. The other carries the date of October 23, 1830, and was purportedly written by Martin Harris to W.W. phelps. I knew there would be a great fuss. Scholars have pored over them, discussed them, written about them, differed to their opinions, and even argued about them, because contention is of the devil. Remember they. The work has moved steadily and consistently forward. And the only losers have been those who, in a spirit of criticism, which usually has begun in a very mild and innocuous way, have in some instances literally read, talked and written themselves out of the church because they looked only for the negative, read only the negative, and discussed only the negative. To all Latter Day Saints, I say keep the faith.

Julia [01:19:58] And this was the first presidency message that was published in September of 1985. So I highlighted the part about the scholars because again, these are prophets here's. And revelators that they could just know that it's our authentic or true documents. Also, I really think it's interesting. I've never seen a prophet use this word in this way. That the only losers have been those who, in a spirit of criticism, have only looked for the negative and have talked or, you know, found their way out of the church. I just thought that was an interesting thing.

Nemo [01:20:30] Also a winner, loser, binary isn't oft used.

Kolby Reddish [01:20:35] It's like the enemy's word he used in his journal.

Julia [01:20:37] True. Yeah. Okay. So going forward, this is the talk that Nemo just referenced with Dallin H. Oaks discussing kind of back.

Nemo [01:20:49] This man is now the prophet of the Church in the same way that Gordon B. Hinckley was in the room and he became the prophet of the Church. This man who defended this is now the man that people sustain as the chief prophet, seer and revelator.

Julia [01:21:02] Yeah, okay.

Speaker D [01:21:04] The difference in the accounts of different witnesses is the different meanings that different persons attach to words. We have a vivid illustration of this in the recent media excitement about the word salamander in a letter Martin Harris is supposed to have sent to WWF Phelps over 150 years ago. All of the scores of media stories on that subject, all that I have seen, apparently assume that the author of that letter used the word salamander in the modern sense of a tailed amphibian. One wonders why so many writers neglected to reveal to their readers that there is another meaning of salamander, which may even have been the primary meaning in this context in the 1820s. That meaning, which is listed second in my Random House Dictionary of the English Language, is a mythical being thought to be able to live in fire. Modern and ancient literature contain many examples of this usage. For example, see the research notes by FARMS circulated at this symposium.

Nemo [01:22:18] Now, why doesn't he just say, rather than appealing to the Random House Dictionary of the English Language, why doesn't he just say, guys, I'm a prophet? And here is what Joseph. Here is what was meant in that letter by a white salamander. Why does he have to. Why is he appealing to secular authority here? There's so much appeal to secular authority by men who claim a direct access to a divine authority.

Kolby Reddish [01:22:42] The other thing I really appreciate about this story and what it reveals to me is again, this overarching epistemological point is he was ready and willing, as were the people at fairmormon or whatever apologetic papers that he was referencing, because it was like an apologetics conversation. It was farms, so predecessor to FAIR and to the Maxwell Institute. He was ready and willing to have the entire church swallow wholesale something that was fraud that was made by a murderer to perpetrate a fraud. And in doing that, it. Just thinking about this specific example always reveals to me that these apologetic arguments of it's not technically impossible if they can apply just as evenly to something that's a complete fraud, and that we know that definitively today. You need to think about that every time they come out with one of these arguments in the future. And it says a lot about the underlying epistemology of someone who claims to be a prophet, seer and revelator at that time that isn't able to tell the difference. I also want to point out and quibble with something he said. He said that may have been like the. The idea of a salamander being a being that lives in fire. He's also just like misrepresenting what that was like. Yes, there's the mythological salamander that can live in fire, but the mythological salamander that can live in fire wasn't also a dude. It was literally a set. Like it was the tailed amphibian that could also live in fire. And to his argument that it wasn't the. That that may have been the primary definition in Joseph Smith's day. If only there were a way we could know that. Like, I don't know, going and looking at the Webster's 1828 dictionary, which. Julia, if you'd be kind enough to add my shared screen to the stage.

Julia [01:24:29] Oh, sure. We add to stage, remove other media. Oh, sorry. Okay.

Kolby Reddish [01:24:39] That's okay. So this comes from the 1828 dictionary. So this would have been the usage that was common at the time that. That this letter supposedly was written or would have been written as well as when the Book of Mormon was being dictated. An animal of the genus Lacerta or lizard, one of the smaller species of the genus, not being more than 7 or 8 inches in length. Nemo. Does it look like the primary definition has to do with a being that can live in fire like Oaks is talking about?

Nemo [01:25:06] Just let me check. No, no, no, it's not.

Kolby Reddish [01:25:11] In fact, you don't see it until the very bottom here. The vulgar story of it's being able to endure fire is a mistake. So again, this comes back to my point, which is it's not even. It's not even like his Apologetic of a being that can live in fire is really an excuse anyways, because it's not a dude, it's not an angel. It's literally a salamander that comes. Yes, the tailed amphibian from the very beginning. And his epistemology was willing to allow for the entire members of the church to accept this fraud wholesale. And it would have posed no problem. Think about what that means for the epistemology of this man.

Nemo [01:25:53] So in the same way, he's also willing to sit on a stage in the University of Virginia and say that electroshock treatment didn't happen while he was president at byu, though it did. And there's evidence that he knew that it was going on.

Kolby Reddish [01:26:05] To me, even worse than that is when he was then invited, after being confronted with the evidence that he knew it was going on when he was invited to correct the record, he sent out a church public relations person to say Elder Oaks feels like the record speaks for itself. Well, I agree with him just completely differently.

Nemo [01:26:23] And then when he to me personally said he would look into my concerns, that being one of them, he then pointed me to Fair's public study that concluded he didn't lie rather than just telling me I didn't lie. So I have, I have first hand experience with this man's epistemology and it is wanting.

Julia [01:26:45] This also reminds me of. I can never remember his name, Muelstein. Where he says, where he says, I, I believe in the Book of Abraham,

Nemo [01:26:53] that Book of Mormon. Everything that says from it is true. And any evidence I find, I fit into that paradigm.

Julia [01:26:59] Yeah. So he was. Oakes was unwilling to question if this maybe was not accurate. He was just like going to fit it in, like, oh, this is how I can fit it. It's redefining what salamander? Or taking a different definition of salamander.

Nemo [01:27:11] And redefining words is so often how apologists will make things fit. You know, Horse, it's called equivocation. Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [01:27:20] From like in critical thinking, logical fallacy circles, it's called equivocation when you hide in the vagueness of language. And it's true to say that words can be subject to many different definitions. Right. Context matters. But they use the tool of equivocation all of the time. I mean, the obvious go to is translation. This idea that like, well, a translation that doesn't line up with any type of normal translation can be okay as long as we call it a revelation. That's its own form of equivocation.

Julia [01:27:50] Yeah, true.

Kolby Reddish [01:27:51] This is a great example, Julia. Thank you for adding this one.

Julia [01:27:54] Yeah. Okay, so then just. I, we already, I think we've already kind of talked about this, but the Salamander leader was later exposed to being a forgery created by Mark Hoffman. And I didn't go into details about Mark Hoffman, but he, he did kill several people and he was put in prison. And that's. I think he. Yeah. So this is just. These people didn't see, they didn't know.

Kolby Reddish [01:28:15] And to do the like, hypothesis testing that we were doing in the last couple of episodes. Right. Imagine how significant a piece of evidence it would have been for the claimed spirit of discernment if Gallon Oaks, if Gordon Hinckley, if the prophet at the time would have said, we don't believe the Salamander letter is real. We have. It has apparently been vindicated by these experts. They don't see any sign of a forgery, but we do not believe that it is legitimate. That's not what happened, though. Instead, they got online with what the secular experts said, and it's only after the fact that it's. That it's been exposed as a forgery that they deal with it.

Julia [01:28:57] Right. Yeah.

Nemo [01:28:58] And yet in so many other instances, the church is happy to argue with secular experts and be wrong while arguing with secular experts about things like genetics. I say the church, Church apologists, I suppose, but you know, they're so willing to still hold positions that have been disproportionately proven by secular experts. And yet here, rather than push back on the secular experts who go, no, no, we don't believe it. Yeah, they, they just went, yeah, okay, right, yeah, we'll hold a little space for things to be maybe not quite right because this is damaging, like, like Colby said. So we'll hold some space for it to be dismissable, but other than that, we're going to move along and we're certainly not going to detect the fact that the man's selling them to us is a murderer.

Julia [01:29:44] Yeah. Okay, so my next three examples I think are, are all individuals. So this next one is Paul Dunn. And there have been Mormon stories episodes on this, on him, his whole story. But this happened in the 1970s and 1990s. And I didn't know very much about Paul Dunn because I haven't seen those older episodes until doing this research.

Paul Dunn and Faith-Promoting Fabrications

Nemo [01:30:06] Paul Dunn.

Julia [01:30:08] So in 1976, Dunn became a member of the newly constituted First Quorum of the Seventy. Dunn was a member of this quorum until he was designated an Emeritus General Authority on October 1st of 1989. Additionally, Dunn served As a member of the presidency of the 70 from 1976 to 1980, Dunn wrote over 50 books during his time as a general authority. Some of these books made claims that Dunn had played Major League baseball for the St. Louis Cardinals. In one of his stories, Dunn reported that his best friend Harold Lester Brown died in his arms during World War II. In the New Era published on. In August of 1975, Paul Dunn told the following story. Now there were 1,000 of us in my combat team who left San Francisco on that fateful journey. And there were six of us who came back two and a half years later. How do you like that for odds? And for the six of us, five had been severely wounded two or more times and had been sent back into the line as replacements. There had been literally thousands of innocents where I should have been taken. Incidents. There had been literally thousands of incidents where I should have been taken from the earth by the enemy and for some reason was not. So then I want to talk about Lynn Packers Nemo. Do you want to. Do you want to read this slide?

Nemo [01:31:31] Yes. One second. There we go. Lynn Packer is an award winning investigative reporter, television news consultant and law consultant. Packer worked for KSL and BYU in journalism and broadcasting.

Kolby Reddish [01:31:45] It's worth noting that he is a nephew of Boyd K. Packer.

Nemo [01:31:51] You can kind of see the family resemblance there, can't you? He does look a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And he's working, you know, for the church broadcasting company, KSL as well as byu, the church university. So he's got skin in the game then. Packer was a critic of Paul Dunn's stories and accused him of fabricating or embellishing many of these events. According to Sunstone, the church pressured Packer not to publish stories about Dunn's fabrications. After Packer decided to pursue the story, however, the church terminated Packer's teaching contract at byu. Packer uncovered many of the lies told by Dunn and sold his research to the Republic and to the Salt Lake television station public. I assume that's the Arizona Republic.

Julia [01:32:33] I think so.

Nemo [01:32:34] Which also uncovered the Grizzly Bear incident. The stage managing of Grizzly Bearson. Yeah, that was Steve Benson that uncovered that.

Julia [01:32:42] Wait, so I just wanted to. I just. You were talking about the connection with Boyd K. Packer. So this man is able to. This man here, Lynn Packer was able to discern that Paul Dan's not actually being accurate. But then you have this image here where Boyd K. Packer is standing in the back of the room and he has no idea and this man is the prophet. Syrian revelator. He or not the prophet, but a prophet, an apostle who has those keys. Anyway, I just think that's interesting.

Nemo [01:33:09] Yeah.

Julia [01:33:10] Anyway, so going. So Lynn Packer sells the stories he exposes. Done. As it turns out, Dunn never played for the St. Louis Cardinals. Harold Lester Brown, Dunn's best friend who died in his arms during World War II was alive and well until Packer. He was confused by the story Dunn

Nemo [01:33:29] had been telling stories of greatly exaggerated.

Kolby Reddish [01:33:34] Do you know if Harold Lester Brown was also a member of the church? Because I feel like if someone was telling a story about me publicly having died in World War II in somebody's arms, I probably would correct the record and not have to be tracked down by someone like Lynn Packer. The way I've always heard this story told is it seems like he had to be tracked down by Lynn Packer.

Julia [01:33:55] Yeah, I don't think he was a Mormon because I read that sense of an article and I don't. I don't think there were connections.

Kolby Reddish [01:34:01] Okay.

Julia [01:34:02] But. Yeah. Okay.

Nemo [01:34:04] So I seem to find anything.

Kolby Reddish [01:34:06] Yeah, that that would. If he wasn't, that would explain why. Because Dunn was really only. I mean not only, but Dunn was most popular with members. His books were mostly being sold to members. Who's mostly doing the speaking circuit with members. And so maybe he just hadn't really heard a lot of the stories is the reason I was asking.

Nemo [01:34:23] Okay. Right.

Julia [01:34:24] Yeah, I think that's true. Okay. So and then. And from Dunn's 2nd Battalion which was made up of 1,000 soldiers, records show that 200 men served in his anti tank company. Of those 205 were killed in action and 15 were wounded sufficiently to earn a purple Heart. From Sunstone we read. These figures reflect the fact the 77th Division never spearheaded any major attacks and the anti tank company of the 77th did not play a frontline role for the division.

Nemo [01:34:56] So stolen valor there from Lynn Packard,

Kolby Reddish [01:34:59] I think or from.

Nemo [01:35:01] Sorry, from done. Done. Sorry. Yeah.

Julia [01:35:04] So these are just some, these are just three of the stories that I, that, that I pulled out that were interesting that were fabricated.

Kolby Reddish [01:35:10] So can I pause you for a second and just say again, kind of a meta epistemological point. I feel like Paul H. Dunn is one of those people who gets caught up in the zeal of selling these stories or of sharing and selling these stories that help people increase their faith. And all of his errors in the way he told his story make him. And. And then by extension like his specific calling and his role and his Importance which is directly linked to the church. Right. If he's a church general authority, they make those more important. And it's very interesting to me that his exaggerations always go that direction. Right. The reason he's telling. If you go back a few slides, Julia, to his story about the war, this one, there have been literally thousands of instance where I should have been taken from the earth by the enemy, and for some reason was not. He's emphasizing to people who are going to be reading this in the new era how much God protects, protected, or protects him, and thus God will protect or has protected them. And I guess I'm just making the point that he was lying about these stories or exaggerating these stories because of his inborn need to build faith in people. That's what's going on here. And when you understand kind of how that epistemologic, how that epistemology works, it just helps show why people look at all the stories that are shared in general conference a little bit skeptically. Because all of us do this. Like, this is part of being a human, and especially part of being a human that's involved in a religious movement that's associated with zeal and testimony and doing all of these things. I guess I just would be remiss if I didn't mention that, that Dunn was doing these things because people want it so badly. Carl Sagan once said that it's dangerous to believe in things just because we wish them to be true. And at an underlying level, that is what this episode is about is helping to counter this idea that being skeptical means that you're bad. The whole narrative of doubt your doubts. No, you should investigate your doubts. When you have doubts about something for good reason, you need to look into them. Because oftentimes when you fact check things, like even at a basic level, the entire story that Dunn was telling was completely fabricated. This idea that he was only one, the one person who wasn't hurt in this entire division of a thousand people, is just a fantasy. But he's selling that fantasy because it

Nemo [01:37:47] helps build faith, faith promoting stories.

Julia [01:37:51] And I think what was happening. Yeah, and I think what was happening with his friend who died, he was taking. The Sunstone article explains it where he was taking different other people's stories and kind of blending them with other stories and then making them his own. And so because I think someone there was a friend or somebody who had their friend die in their arms, and he was just like, oh, I can adopt that and change this person's name to. To Lester. Harold Lester Brown. So.

Nemo [01:38:15] But ultimately, he's fibbing. He's lying.

Julia [01:38:18] Yes. Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [01:38:20] And in fact, that makes it worse to me if he's taking other people's stories and remixing them with a real plagiarizing that. That takes knowing effort. Like, that's not just, oh, I got some detail wrong, or, oh, I'm just exaggerating to build faith. Like, he literally, like, pastiched together a narrative involving someone that it never happened to.

Julia [01:38:41] Well, then Harold Lester Brown being alive, I. I just think that's bad.

Nemo [01:38:44] Like, if Harold Lester Brown were dead, but he died in a different way. Right, Right. Okay. It's still not honest, but I can. But he's like, no, this guy didn't even die. He's just still kicking around. Like, why are you telling people I'm dead?

Julia [01:38:59] Yeah. So I don't know if we need to read this whole thing, but there was the church in October of 26 of 1991. So hang on, let me just see. When Packer was fired. Oh, it doesn't really give a date, but. So the Church News released an apology, an open letter to the members of the church from Paul H. Dunn. And so here he's like. He's just saying that he's been censured. They've investigated him, they've checked him, and he's been like, properly. I don't know if we need to read this whole thing, but it says

Nemo [01:39:30] they've weighed a heavy penalty upon him.

Julia [01:39:33] Yes.

Nemo [01:39:33] And he accepts their censure and imposed penalty and pledges to conduct his life in such a way as to merit their confidence and full fellowship. That, to me, sounds like church, what you would call now membership with restrictions. Right. Something has happened to his abilities to be a member of the church or practice as a member of the church. I don't think he was excommunicated, but I think, you know, he clearly faced some restrictions in his privileges. Your thoughts, Colby? Sorry.

Kolby Reddish [01:40:06] Well, I was going to say, surely when the church is having him issue this apology in the Church News, they would have also gone back and renewed Lynn Packer's teaching contract. Right. Because he did such a good job. No, I am certain that that did not happen.

Nemo [01:40:22] No. Because as we know time and time again, those who bring these things to light, even if they are eventually dealt with, are never acknowledged. Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [01:40:30] Speaking from personal experience there indeed.

Nemo [01:40:33] A little bit. Yeah, a little bit. I think of Sam Bishop. Sorry, Sam Young. Bishop Sam Young. And the fact that changes that he asked for were made. Was his membership reinstated.

Kolby Reddish [01:40:48] No. Right. And I know that. I know that there were members, including, you know, Radio Free Mormon, all of our friend, collective friend has talked about how experiencing the spirit while Paul H. Dunn was sharing these stories at firesides or on tapes and then recognizing when it came to light in the. In this 1991 letter that he was saying, like, yeah, these weren't true. These stories weren't true. That is a really difficult thing to weigh for your epistemology when your epistemology has been based upon this idea that if I feel good, why some. While someone is telling me this story, that feeling good means that the story is true, that it means something objectively about reality. And I'll just say for myself personally, you know, episodes 1550 and 1551, or where my wife and I detail kind of like our experience with our faith crisis, the genesis of which was our bishop being char with child sex abuse crimes. And I will just say, and I'm actually kind of ashamed to admit this, that isn't what actually catalyzed my faith crisis. What actually catalyzed my faith crisis was the fact that I had thought, when this bishop was called, because he was someone that I had known for a long time and had thought he was a little bit too immature to be a bishop, what actually catalyzed my faith crisis was the fact that I specifically prayed about whether he should be bishop at this time if I could get a testimony of the legitimacy of his calling. And. And that is actually what was a problem was the recognition that this epistemology that I have been taught, going back to the scripture that we've Talked about from Moroni 10, right. That the Holy Ghost can teach us the truth of all things. For me, what actually changed my epistemology was the recognition that that way of knowing things did not work. At least it did not work for me, that I could not make decision based upon, purely based upon the way that I felt. And I think a lot of people experience that with Paul H. Dunn's revelations. And that's. That's the point I wanted to make, is that there were many people I know who had felt this zeal, who had felt this fire, who had thought he was one of the best, like, leaders in the church, one of the best general authorities. He was exciting the youth. He was doing a ton of things with the youth. And when people are able to fill the spirit on a fake story, that begins to cause people to say, what does that mean for what the spirit is?

Julia [01:43:16] Yeah.

Nemo [01:43:17] And how was someone allowed over the pulpit at General Conference to say things that weren't true, that caused. Because that surely is a place where you should be able to reliably believe that what is being said comes from God. One of the things to be said that are not true. It's a problem, like you said, to carry on feeling the spirit.

Julia [01:43:42] Oh, I was just gonna. I was just gonna add because I think there have been other talks given in general conference that came that they had to correct later.

Nemo [01:43:49] And I think I did some plagiarizing, I think that they had to sort out.

Julia [01:43:53] Yeah, well.

Kolby Reddish [01:43:53] And there have been multiple stories that President Nelson, before he had passed, had told that could not be verified or when they were investigated, basically pointed to the fact that he was doing the same level of exaggeration that Paul H. Dunn had done. Yeah.

Julia [01:44:09] Yeah.

Nemo [01:44:09] Sorry. What are you gonna say, Julia?

Julia [01:44:10] Oh, no, that's. I was just gonna say there are other examples besides just Polly. Stunning. So that was a great addition. So this next. The next individual that I want to talk about is Tim Ballard. And this is from 20. I dated this 2023. So Timothy Ballard is out there somewhere.

Timothy Ballard and Recent Fraud Cases

Kolby Reddish [01:44:25] Care Barrel is very offended that we did not invite her to this part of this conversation.

Julia [01:44:30] Yes. If you want to learn more, go to her. Go to her channel and I can put it in the show notes. So Timothy Ballard is the founder and former CEO of Operation Underground Railroad, or our, an anti sex trafficking organization. The 2023American Christian thriller film Sound of Freedom, starring Jim. How do you say. Cavazzel Caviezel. Caviezel was inspired by Ballard's experiences. While there is no relation between Tim Ballard and Apostle M. Russell Ballard, they were close friends. And so these are just a couple of talks where I'm just pulling out that they are. That this man is as a friend to an apostle of the Lord, Apostle in the church. So on December 18, 2019, and Marissa Ballard gave this talk, the Lord's Hand at byu Idaho. And then so you can see here he's saying, I'm just pointing to this part of his talk where he says, I had the opportunity this past summer to travel to Plymouth, Massachusetts with my friend Tim Ballard. And then in the church newsroom shared another version of this talk the next day, saying, this past summer I visited. The wording is a little bit different, but he's saying that he. He went with a family friend, Tim Ballard. And then this is an image. So also, if you want to learn more about Tim Ballard, Ryan Fisher has an episode of Mormon Stories. And I'm pretty sure he's still partnering with Kara Brell in discussing Tim Ballard. But this is an image from him. You have, you have M. Russell Ballard, you have Tim Ballard, you have Ryan Fisher. And I don't remember this individual on the, on the. My right. Anyway, but just again, showing that they were friends. He's friends with an apostle. And then there's a clip that feels out of context right now because of, I don't know how to explain that, but we'll talk about this, what he's saying after I just share this clip.

Kolby Reddish [01:46:11] President Ballard is like a grandfather to me. He came to me in, I don't know, 2012, 2011, and he told me that he appreciates all the things I'm

Nemo [01:46:29] doing and he wants to help me do it.

Julia [01:46:31] So, yeah, this is just him saying he's like a grandfather to me. This is a video clip shared from Fox News. He's like a grandfather to me. He says, yes, I want to help you in your mission in about 2011.

Nemo [01:46:43] 2012.

Julia [01:46:44] Yes. And then I want to share this next clip for another clip from Fox 13.

Speaker D [01:46:52] In a statement to Fox 13 News and Vice News, the church has denounced Tim Ballard's activities as morally unacceptable. In an online article posted this morning, Tim Ballard claimed or Vice News reports that Tim Ballard claimed that one of the top leaders of the church, President M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of twelve Apostles, played a secret and central role in Operation Underground Railroad. Further Vice News reports, witnesses who spoke to federal and local investigators say Tim Ballard claimed our and his personal business ventures were backed by Elder Ballard as part of a larger mission to bring Americans to the LDS faith.

Nemo [01:47:36] Wow.

Julia [01:47:37] Yeah. So. And so now they're telling the story of the church. They are calling him morally unacceptable. So he went from being this friend of this apostle, this prophet, Syrian revelator, to the church now discussing this and the reason for that or one of the reasons for that. This is a, this is an article on the screen from, from kutv and it says alleged victim speaks out against Tim Ballard. Our. And then you have, I think that, I think five women have spoken out against Tim Ballard in this, specifically in the couple's ruse. But then you have Vice News who comes out and talks about how, how our was not being honest. Specifically, I think Tim Ballard was not being honest in how they were helping children or specific children that they were helping who had been supposedly trafficked. I don't, I don't want to go into all the details here. We have episodes of Mormon Stories and again, Kara has covered this in depth on her Channel. I don't know if you guys want to add more things to this. So it's not. There's just a whole plethora of things that are going on with Tim Ballard.

Kolby Reddish [01:48:37] I think you've summarized it really well, Julia. I think the point here is regardless of like the specific details of the accusations against Tim Ballard, at the very least he's embroiled in controversy and all of that hasn't been completely settled at this point. But the bottom line is the church leaders who were closely linked to him, including Elder Ballard, had no ability to discern who they were really working with or who it appears they were really working with. And for people who really believe in the underlying cause of Operation Underground Railroad, I am right there with you. Like I entered into being a prosecutor because I really believed about protecting children. That's one of the reasons that I did at least. And even other anti trafficking organizations have been very critical of Operation Undergrounds Railroads behaviors and practices from the very beginning. Because the bottom line is Tim Ballard does not seem to have the expertise that he claimed the entire time that he was making millions and millions of dollars with Operation Underground Railroad. And so I think again, it returns us back to this epistemological point of it does not seem that the church, that members of the church, including the church leaders, have access to this power of discernment, at least as it was offered in the first of the slides that we looked at.

Nemo [01:50:00] And are we not taught as members of the church, I say we having been excommunicated. But are members of the church not taught to avoid the appearance of evil? And so regardless of what is proven or not proven about Tim Ballard and his behavior, etc. You could even make the argument that they should not, they should have had the discernment to not get involved with someone who would certainly take on the appearance of impropriety or the appearance of evil.

Kolby Reddish [01:50:31] Right.

Julia [01:50:32] Yeah. There's also this other slide that I added. This was from the Tim Ballard case, the Davis county investigation. This is this complaint 71. I'll just read it. The Davis county investigation, according to our own internal documents, revealed that Elder M. Russell Ballard and other authorities from the Mormon Church provided Mormon tithing records to our to help our target wealthy donors and wealthy Mormon Church wards.

Kolby Reddish [01:50:59] So another thing, whether that's specifically true in this instance, you know, no one knows a complaint. So complaint 71 means like either at page 71 or paragraph 71, probably paragraph 71. The complaint alleges this, this never preceded. So we don't know if it's been adjudicated or if it ends up being true. But I will just say from previous experience, when we look at the way members were treated with regard to Proposition 8 in California, we know that members were that well to do. Members were specifically solicited to help the church fund efforts to oppose Proposition 8 in California. So it seems believable or it fits within a context that is believable overall to me. I guess I just note that.

Julia [01:51:46] Yeah, yeah.

Nemo [01:51:47] Can I ask a question about the legality of this? Were it to have taken place, how free is the church to do with those records what it wants in terms of giving people access to the records it holds?

Kolby Reddish [01:52:00] As far as I know, Utah does not have any type of theory that you could plead for ecclesiastical abuse. So unless you had given the church this tithing information with specific. Directed not to share it. But I, I don't know. I. I guess I don't really know that there would be anything illegal that had been done in the sharing of these records.

Nemo [01:52:24] Because in my little European brain, gdpr, General data protection sort of legislations or regulations, alarm bells are going off. The church had done this with any European members information, it would. There'd be hell to pay.

Kolby Reddish [01:52:43] Yeah.

Nemo [01:52:44] And obviously over here is a much different thing.

Kolby Reddish [01:52:47] Yeah. We do not have the data privacy protections that Europe does. So I'm speaking purely from an American law.

Nemo [01:52:54] And that's why, because I looked at this, I went, oh, that's a big deal. But then I was wondering, actually, you know, how big a deal is it from an American perspective for the church? Like, well, people gave us this information. We can do with it what we want.

Kolby Reddish [01:53:04] Yep. That's probably what would happen ultimately.

Julia [01:53:08] Yeah.

Nemo [01:53:08] All right. Okay.

Julia [01:53:10] Okay. So that's that on that I have for Tim Ballard. And the last example I have in all of this is Jody Hildebrandt from the same year 2023. So Jody Hildebrandt evil. Yes, very. Jody Hildebrandt was a counselor who started the group Connections with an example, a relationship and counseling business established in 2007 in Orem, Utah. She later partnered with YouTuber Ruby Frankie of Eight Passengers and created the channel Moms of Truth as well as YouTube channel, as well as a YouTube channel for connections. And she was often recommended by Mormon bishops. And then we've had. John has had people on who have spoken to this as well. And then I want to talk about. For a second, I want to talk about Brad Wilcox. So from the church's website, we read Bradley or Brad R. Wilcox was sustained as the first counselor in the Young Men's General Presidency for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints on April 1st of 2023. Prior to his call, he had been serving as second counselor since April 2020. Other church callings include serving as a member of the Sunday School General Board, president of the Chile Santiago East Mission High Counselor, State Young Men's President, Councilor, young single adult, Stake Presidency Bishop, and full time missionary in a Chile Vina del Mar mission. So I highlighted bishop because like we talked about at the beginning, the specific person listed in DNC 46 as having, as being, being, having the gift of discernment is a bishop. So he, you can like, I guess apologists could say, oh, the prophets or apostles don't have it, but the bishop really, really should have this.

Nemo [01:54:44] Once a bishop, always a bishop as well. So.

Kolby Reddish [01:54:46] Well, it's also ridiculous to assume that if the prophet holds all of the keys and powers to administer the gospel on the earth. To me, it would be patently ridiculous to say that the prophet doesn't have access to powers that bishops do.

Julia [01:54:59] Right, I agree.

Nemo [01:55:01] Correct.

Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby Franke, and Church Connections

Julia [01:55:02] Okay. And Ruby Frankie's diary, she records a meeting she had with Brad Wilcox on June 13th of 2023. And a little red arrow is showing where this is in her diary. Some of it has been redacted. As it turns out, Jody Hildebrand and her partner Ruby Franke were abusing the youngest Franke children at Hildebrandt's 5 million dollar home in Utah on August 30th of 2023. Hildebrandt and so this is just June, July, August. Two months after meeting with him, Hildebrand and Ruby Frankie were arrested and charged with six counts of aggravated child abuse of the two Frankie children. Hildebrand pleaded guilty on four counts and was sentenced to between four and 30 years in prison on February 20th of 2024. And I guess, yeah, the arrest took place 11 weeks after meeting with Brad Wilcox.

Nemo [01:55:48] And I want to point to something because I often hear the sort of more conspiratorial members of the audience saying, well, actually he was probably sat in the meeting and she was probably honest with him about what he was doing and he was laughing too because they're all just terrible people. It's not what we're saying at all here. He just didn't know that who the person he was sat across from was this incredibly abusive woman who abused children and has been charged and I believe convicted with multiple counts of felony aggravated child abuse. So he just didn't know yeah. Didn't know who sat across from.

Kolby Reddish [01:56:26] And it wasn't just Brad Wilcox. If you'll go back.

Julia [01:56:28] Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [01:56:29] So if you look. So 5, 28, 23, meet Jeremy Jaggy. Jody goes to SLC to meet with Jeremy Jaggi or Yagi. I'm not sure how you pronounce that. And Brad Wilcox. Yagi himself is also a general authority. So we've got two general authorities meeting with Jody. Neither one of them are able to tell from my recollection of the timeline these kids would have been being abused. The Frankie kids would have been being abused during this meeting. Like, so they're not able to even discern that the person that they're meeting with, which also they were supposedly meeting with her because of her expertise and what she had done with connections. Like, they're going to someone who is literally abusing children in the very instance when she's abusing children to ask her for help and for advice. That is wild to me.

Julia [01:57:18] Yes. Well, then even all these other bishops who are recommending that they. That these. Their members go to her. Like, they don't have the gift of discernment.

Nemo [01:57:26] Yeah.

Julia [01:57:27] Not just Brad and. Yeah. Right. And then this is just a news article from CBS News. The title is Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt sentenced to up to 30 years in prison and child abuse case. And then it talks about the case. So, like, again, people.

Kolby Reddish [01:57:40] It's not like people would obviously want to look into this if they want to, but if you don't understand the depths of the abuse that was occurring with Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hillbrandt, there is a Netflix documentary. Do either of you remember what it was called?

Nemo [01:57:56] It's not Sins of. That's.

Julia [01:57:58] No. Yeah. That's the first one that came to my mind.

Nemo [01:58:02] I don't remember what it's called. What I will say, even beyond the Netflix documentary, just go and watch the police cam footage. Is it evil of when. Of when the youngest.

Kolby Reddish [01:58:13] Yes.

Nemo [01:58:13] Son. Or when. When the young boy finally escapes and goes and asks for help from a neighbor. Just watch.

Kolby Reddish [01:58:19] And that was gonna. That was going to be my point. Emo is like, if you haven't actually heard how evil the treatment was of these children. Like, it is heartbreaking levels of abuse and neglect. Like, it is amazing to me that none of these children ended up dead.

Julia [01:58:35] Well, and then the. The. You'll see in the. I think it's called Evil Influencer on Netflix. They show the. What I understand is the. The porch camera. When the boy finally did escape and he ran to the neighbors. The neighbor, he's sitting at the boy sitting on the porch. And the neighbor calls the police. And we can hear the audio of that call. And he's just so heartbroken about how it. Emaciated and wounded and how just. Just how much this child has been abused. And it's that, like, that really gets me, this scene.

Kolby Reddish [01:59:02] And the little girl. The little girl. So they find the boy because the boy escapes. And he actually wants the police to be called so that he can turn himself in because Jody and his mother had convinced himself how evil he was. When they finally find the little girl in either, like, a closet or some, you know, room off to the side, she literally will not speak to the officers who rescue her for hours and hours and hours. The point being, you know, what was happening, what Jody Hillebrand was doing was evil, capital E. And Brad Wilcox got a promotion after this. Like, he got promoted even higher in the young men's general presidency, which is just absurd to me that he had this involvement with this woman. And there is no accountability in this system for. For this at all.

Julia [01:59:56] Yeah.

Nemo [01:59:57] And. And to be clear, if the church weren't claiming this ability for its leaders, if they weren't claiming prophetic abilities, then you would have. There would be grace to say, well, they weren't to know, but they claim to have these abilities. And so it's worth looking at times when those abilities just seemingly did not exist, because if they had, they could have stopped like that. That kid. 11 weeks of abuse could have been mitigated if Brad Wilcox had had the gift of discernment and gone. There's something not right about this woman. We need to do something right. Yeah, it's really that simple in this.

Julia [02:00:33] Yeah, this is. I'm just sharing D&C 46 again. And unto the bishop of the church and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church are to have it given unto them to discern all those things, lest there should be any among you professing and yet not be of God, Be not of God. So, yeah, so these are just all instances where from the church's own scriptures, they should have been able to discern good from evil, right from wrong. And they didn't.

Kolby Reddish [02:01:03] And yet. So they won't excommunicate these people, but they'll excommunicate podcasters. Like, the priorities of this system are just truly absurd. I guess just my closing thoughts are, you know, people are going to look at this list and I'm sure we might get a little bit more pushback on this episode than we have on past episodes because we've been, and me particularly, I've been a little bit stronger in this episode. But that's for a reason. It's because when you look at this entire pattern of, like you said, Julia, the system claims to have this power. I don't think that we are bad for just looking at the track record and saying, does this power that this system claimed to have actually seem to exist? If anything, they seem to have revelation in reverse. Like they seem to link up with people that are frauds or that take advantage of people at a very high prevalence. And I think that is because the entire church's epistemology is built upon this wanting to believe so badly that it allows. It allows for frauds and charlatans to take advantage of who are otherwise good, kind people, which is the average everyday member of the church that is sitting in the pews. So for anyone who falls within that camp that listens to this episode and really doesn't like the tone that I've had in this episode, I would say I apologize for that. But the reason my tone has been strong is because I care about you. I care about the otherwise good people in the church who are taken advantage of by the system because of its flawed epistemology. And that's where my motivation comes from, this episode. And I think when you look at this entire pattern, you can see that the epistemology required to continue believing in the church with so many problems to its historical truth claims objectively leaves you vulnerable to frauds and charlatans. And that's where my concern comes from.

Julia [02:02:50] Yeah. Yeah.

Closing Thoughts and Final Reflections

Kolby Reddish [02:02:52] Closing thoughts, Julia, we'll do you first and then Nima.

Julia [02:02:55] Well, my thoughts as you were talking was just that aside from Brad Wilcox, all of these other examples are, are really closely tied to the prophet or the apostles with like Paul Dunn, he is a general authority and Brad Wilcox is pretty high up there, like. But I just, I don't see any way around because I was thinking of trying to imagine these different arguments that people could present. But these are. These are closely related to the apostles and the prophets. And yet they went undetected. These evil actions, these, these frauds, they went undetected by the people who, in their own scriptures that claims that they should be able to have discerned this. So I just don't know. I just don't understand how somebody can. Can argue these.

Nemo [02:03:34] But I think the broader implications here are that if the leaders of the church general authorities. Let's just say for argument's sake, if they are watchmen on the tower, then they are asleep at times. And the problem is, when you teach children from very early age to sing follow the prophet, and they are brought up in a way in which they are to follow what the prophet says and to lean on the prophet for guidance and to trust the leaders of the church to not lead them astray. And with all the other things that have been said by church leaders about how they won't lead us astray, how can you trust them when they have made such failings, when they have failed to identify fraud, when they have failed to identify things that are harmful to people, when they failed to identify abuse that's happening under their nose, how can you then trust them? I think that's important to wrestle with.

Kolby Reddish [02:04:30] And the one last thing I'll say to that, Nemo, is not being able to trust them doesn't mean that you think they have bad intentions, right? It's about the results. Like, I think that's the thing about the system that I would also want people to understand. As we close today's episode is asking whether someone has reliably, like, been able to show that they walk up to the claims that they've given for themselves. Doesn't mean that you're saying that these men are bad or that they have bad intentions, just that they don't have the power that they claim to. I think that's my one last closing thought for this episode. Julia, remind people how they can watch and support your channel. And Nemo, you do the same after Julia, please.

Julia [02:05:10] Yeah, so I am analyzing Mormonism. I have a TikTok, an Instagram, a YouTube and a website. If you want to support me, you can go to my website and there's a donate button. You can just donate there. Also, supporting LDS discussions series also goes to support me as well. And if you guys have ideas of content you want us to see in the future, like we just talked about maybe doing the 1826 trial, you guys can leave those as suggestions and we can see if we can do episodes on those as well.

Kolby Reddish [02:05:39] Great, Nemo.

Nemo [02:05:40] I'm Nemo the Mormon on every conceivable social media platform. Although I will reiterate, as I have done in weeks past, that MySpace is no longer relevant.

Speaker D [02:05:49] Other than that.

Nemo [02:05:49] Yeah, come and find me on social media. Donorbox.org nimothemoroman if you want to give me direct financial support, but otherwise just liking and subscribing. Yeah, the economy that we work in.

Kolby Reddish [02:06:03] That's right. Well, thank you both for being part

Julia [02:06:06] of oh, don't forget about your don't you have a channel, Colby?

Nemo [02:06:09] Do you want to just over on the Internet anymore?

Kolby Reddish [02:06:11] Because I always forget to pitch my own channel. But yes, I was actually going to remember the this time, Julia. So I was going to thank you both for being part of today's episode and say I have started my own channel called let's Disagree with Colby Reddish and let's disagree on other interesting conversations with Colby Reddish. Earlier, before we started recording, I told these two that I am the worst youtuber and I'm continuing that streak with not even getting the chat my own channel name right. But my channel is not specific to Mormonism, but it does look at critical thinking, logical fallacies. And I do have guests on that talk about Mormonism or Mormon topics. But the premise of the channel is trying to create spaces where we can have respectful, disagreeing conversations. Just yesterday I released a conversation with a church apologist named Stephen Murphy. From your neck of the woods, Nemo. He and I have had a number of different conversations that are, you know, he's an apologist, I'm a critic. We're talking about how we view the evidence differently and they are just really great spaces to, to talk with people who have different. Who just have very different answers to some of life's biggest questions. And it's been a really fun kind of experiment to get that channel going and I've been really excited to see how people have responded to it. I'll close us there. Aside from saying that again, this episode, which I think has been great, thank you, Julia, for all the work on the slides and Nemo, for being part of today's episode as well. This episode is part of the LDS discussion series on Mormon stories. And as a reminder, this series started with the work of a man named Mike and his website, ldsdiscussions.com which the series continues to build upon his work. And John feels that it is one of the most important things that Mormon Stories podcast has ever done and I would agree with him there. Please continue to support this series financially if you can, and contribute to us continuing to work on these episodes together because I think they're a lot of fun looking at these different aspects of the church's history and culture. And some of these kind of meta epistemological questions are some of the things that I like to look at in particular. So as a reminder, please email any feedback you have to mormonstoriesmail.com and it'll find its way to John and I'm sure to me eventually. Thank you for joining us today. On today's episode. Please be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you again on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Thank you.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.