Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Edition. I am your host, John Dehlin. It's May 22, 2024, and we are, I don't know, 54, 55 episodes into an amazing series called LDS Discussions), where we talk about the Mormon Church truth claims as dispassionately and as objectively as possible so that you, the listener, viewer, can decide how you think and how you feel about the Mormon Church's truth claims.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Today's episode we will be talking about. It's part four in our series on the witnesses to the Book of Mormon to the gold plates. And we're going to be talking about what happened to the eight witnesses to the gold plates, to the Book of Mormon, and to the other witnesses.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] This is part four in that series. The first episode was the three Witnesses. The second was the eight witnesses. The. The third was the other witnesses to the gold plates. And this is part four. I say this every LDS Discussions) episode, but these episodes are in a series. They're best understood and they're best appreciated in succession. Which means what we recommend is you go back to the beginning, watch all 50, whatever, and then watch this one. You'll get much more out of it. Of course, you're welcome. If you don't want to do that, you can access the LDS discussion series as a standalone podcast on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, and there's a YouTube playlist on the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel where you can just watch them all in succession as well.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] Millions of views and listens now have come about from this series. I'm hearing in the past year that this is one of the most important things we've ever done. And of course, it's based on the amazing work of Mike from LDS discussions.com website and. And then we've brought Julia on now as well. She's been producing and writing and.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] And managing some of the episodes. And of course, we're always grateful to have Nemo the Mormon from his YouTube channel with us. Hey, y'.

Julia [00:02:09] All.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] How's it going?

Julia [00:02:10] Good.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Thanks for joining us, Julie. Are you tired of the Witnesses yet? Not yet, no.

Julia [00:02:17] I'm actually still fascinated. I went and bought Richard Lloyd Anderson's book about it, and I'm ready to read that now.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] Cool. And you've been reading Grant Palmer's An Insider's View?

Julia [00:02:28] Yeah, yeah, that one is so good. Yeah. And we'll talk about some of that today, too.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] Mike, I don't know if you know this, but I've asked Julia to produce at least A few episodes just kind of highlighting some of Grant Palmer's main points from his book, because I think it's an important book. Do you agree, Mike? Do you like Grant Palmer?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:46] Yeah, I mean, I haven't. I've listened to his interviews with you years ago, and I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] You didn't read his book.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:54] No, I haven't. Okay.

Nemo [00:02:56] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:56] You know. Yeah, I think. You know, I think from what. I don't remember a lot of. I do know there's a lot of pushback to a lot of what he's. A lot of the points he's making. I know there's a few. Few where I've heard, like, other people who are, you know, critical or whatever say, yeah, that's a little bit of a stretch. But I think a lot of the other points that he makes are good, and they tie in a lot to what we've done already, especially when you talk about how Joseph Smith could have created the Book of Mormon. I know Graham Palmer has a lot of stuff where he looked at, like, what was taken from the.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:03:23] The Bible and all that. So. So there's a lot of work that he did that we're all kind of building off of now, which, you know, is the, you know, Grant Palmer, Dan Vogel, all those people have done such incredible work, and now we're kind of benefiting from that today.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] Yeah, the. The one part of his book, and I don't know if you got to that part, the golden pot is the. Is the part that's most sort of poo pooed, but I think pretty much everything else stands up. Is that right, Julia?

Julia [00:03:48] Yeah, I skipped over that part because I. Because I. I guess I just didn't see it as super. I don't know why, but I skipped over that. And then I was reading everything else, so I'm almost done. I just have a few more pages left. But, yeah, it's so far as everything else that I've seen. It's really, really good research.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] I want, like, four episodes out of you on this, Julie.

Julia [00:04:03] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] All right. All right, cool. All right. So anyway, welcome back. All of you are really excited. Mike, I think you're taking off the summer. Anything you want to say? I guess we could talk at the end, too, but I'm grateful to have you before you have to go into hiatus again.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:04:23] Yeah, no, it's. It's actually good to go into height sometimes, I think. You know, one of the things about doing this for so long is I think there's people who can keep it up for a long time, and then there's people who can't. I'm definitely, I think, to a certain extent, when you go through all these topics, it's like, you know, you feel to a certain extent like you're beating a dead horse. And so, for me, I am kind of happy to be able to kind of get away from it for a bit, just because I haven't done the last year, I've barely watched any Mormon podcasts and stuff.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:04:53] You know, it's. It's not because I don't find it interesting. I still find it fascinating. But there's also that kind of mental part where you're just like, I've kind of. You know, I think John Larsen talked about it once where he just says, you get to a point where you've kind of, like, covered it so much that it just kind of gets to a point where you're just like, I just don't want to right now. So. So, yeah, I find it fascinating still.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] Does that make me Julie and Nemo dead horse beaters? Is that what you're saying?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:05:15] Basically, No. I think you guys are finding different angles of it. It's just, for me, like, I think when we started the series, we had all these topics planned out, and then we got through them all, and it's like, oh, my gosh. Like, we went through so many episodes, and it was like we were. We're going quick. And I think that was just too quick. Too much too quick. And so for me, it was like, yeah, I'm good. I'm good for a while, but, you know, yeah, I have some other projects I'd like to do, so, you know, hopefully get to those.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] I often say that my superpower is, like, not quitting. Anyway, it's fun. Julia's brand new to this. I mean, Nemo's been doing this longer than Julia, so.

Julia [00:05:54] Right, right. So I still feel like I have energy to keep going.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Julie's like a baby. All right.

Nemo [00:06:00] I just. I think it's really good that the audience are getting to see this. Normally, this is the sort of half hour chat that we would have before an episode starts. And then John would be like, right, let's get going. But John came in today like a man possessed. It was on fire. He was like, right, let's get in. Let's get started. Meaning I started. And then we just wasn't super late.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:06:18] Hey.

Nemo [00:06:19] Just full of vim and vigor today, John.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] All right, Nemo, Anything you want to say before we get going?

Nemo [00:06:25] No, I'm Feeling good.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] I'm.

Nemo [00:06:27] I'm fueled. I have my Jammy Dodgers. I'm. I'm feeling good about life. I'm feeling cheery and cheeky. It's gonna be a good episode.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Are they Dodgy Dodgers?

Nemo [00:06:36] No, just jammy ones. Raspberry jam.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] All right, well, Julia, take us home.

The Eight Witnesses and the Sanford Affidavits

Julia [00:06:43] Yeah. So if we go. Go to have you put the slides? Yeah. So this. So this first slide here is just a summary of what we're going to be talking about. And you've already talked about this too, John, but I'll go over it again. So we're going to talk about what became of the eight and the other witnesses, and we've talked about what became of the three witnesses already. And then next we're going to talk about the inconsistencies of the witnesses, which we've already talked about a lot of this already. And then the last thing I wanted to talk about was the history of metal plates, because I think that's important that a lot of people don't understand that history.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] All right.

Julia [00:07:11] Yeah. Okay. So the first thing is what became of the eight witnesses and the other witnesses. Okay, so the church likes to boast that none of the witnesses ever denied their testimonies. But concerning the eight witnesses, this isn't much of a boast because five of the witnesses died during or just after Joseph Smith's lifetime. Two of them were excommunicated, and one of them left the church. And so if you. So I've made a list of all the witnesses and what happened to them, and it's really not that impressive like that. None of them doubted because it's really only. It's really only a few.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Oh, my gosh. Those are mind blowing.

Julia [00:07:45] Right, so let me read it.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] Everyone survived the church past 1844, right?

Julia [00:07:50] Right. So for those. Yeah, for those just listening, we should probably read it.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] Oh, yeah, let's do it. Yeah.

Julia [00:07:57] Anima. Do you want to read the list?

Nemo [00:07:58] Sure. So Christian Whitmer died in 1835. Jacob Whitner was excommunicated in 1838. Peter Whitmer Jr. Died in 1836. John Whitmer was excommunicated in 1838. Hyrum Page left the church in 1838. Joseph Smith Sr. Died a patriarch of the church in 1840. Hyrum Smith died alongside the Prophet in 1844. And Samuel H. Smith died one month after his brother, the Prophet, in 1844.

Julia [00:08:30] Yeah, so there's really like three that survive past the 1840s.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] It's perilous being a Book of Mormon. Witness

Julia [00:08:39] the three. The three lived. So that's fine. So, like, the odds are not in their favor.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Wow. Okay.

Nemo [00:08:49] You know what?

Julia [00:08:50] The.

Nemo [00:08:50] The two that died, Christian and Peter. Do we know what they died of?

Julia [00:08:54] I don't remember exactly what they died of, but I think Christian died pretty. When he was young. Like, I think he was a younger man, too.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Nemo's thinking poison is what Nemo's thinking.

Nemo [00:09:01] Oh, yeah, that's.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:09:04] That's what they think about Samuel Smith. Right. Don't they think he might have been poisoned?

Julia [00:09:08] Oh, I think so, because it was kind of an abrupt death. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:09:12] Yeah. And it was one, you know, right after Joseph Smith dies. And then there's that power struggle. And Lindsay Hansen park has done some podcasts on it. I know she has. I've listened to one of them at least a while back, and it's pretty compelling. But of course, it's all somewhat speculative because no one wrote in A Journey, like, you know, in the journal, like, hey, I tried to poison Samuel Smith today. But, yeah, he seemed to die under suspicious circumstances for sure.

Julia [00:09:34] Well, Joseph Smith certainly thought he was being poisoned by Emma specifically. So no real evidence around that, except for what he was having.

Nemo [00:09:42] That many extramarital relations, should we say, would make one suspicious of their wife and any sort of acts of vengeance she may or may not deem to take, you know.

Excommunications and Credibility of the Witnesses

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Why were Jacob and John Whitmer excommunicated? Do we have any idea?

Julia [00:09:56] Yeah, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that. Okay. Right. I think. I think right now we'll kind of go over that.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] Let's do it.

Julia [00:10:03] Yeah. So for John Whitmer, he was excommunicated on March 10th of 1838. There had been problems with the Kirland Safety Society Bank. Their leadership struggle was. And the entire Whitmer. Okay. There was leadership struggles, and the entire Whitmer family was excommunicated. Upon his excommunication, John Whitmer refused to give the church the documents and records he had worked on as a church historian. He followed James Strang for a time and then later joined the Church of the. Joined the Church of Christ, which we'll talk about.

Nemo [00:10:29] Also see the reference there is Hamer. Is that John Hamer?

John Dehlin [00:10:34] Yeah, for sure.

Julia [00:10:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] Okay. So he didn't want to give up his.

Julia [00:10:40] Yeah, I thought that was interesting because the church tried really hard to get that history. I'm pretty sure they have it now because I think the community of Christ had it. And so I think the Church just got. Just got the access to that, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] I could only imagine.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:10:52] Jokes on John.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] I can only imagine that they. He didn't want them to destroy the evidence because. I don't know. Could we think of any other reason

Julia [00:11:00] why that's a good point? I don't. I don't know. Like, because maybe he was aware that they had been changing some of the revelations in the past. Maybe that's what he was afraid of. I really don't know. I hadn't.

Nemo [00:11:09] Could just be to hurt the church. You know, he's upset. They've. They've made this attempt to kind of solidify their position in church leadership, and it's not worked out. And so he's like, right, well, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna take my ball with me sort of thing.

Julia [00:11:22] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:11:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Okay. And then to the credibility point, he goes and follows James Strang, which questions his judgment or his spiritual compass. Right, right.

Nemo [00:11:35] Well, certainly from a Mormon perspective, like, from a Brighamite perspective. Yeah. Because the idea is that he was right because he knew to follow Joseph and he was spiritually in tune enough to follow Joseph and all that sort of stuff. But then if you follow someone else. Yeah, that undermines that.

Julia [00:11:49] And then him staying true to his testimony of the Book of Mormon also. Say that again.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Yeah.

Julia [00:11:58] Oh, yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:11:58] I was just gonna say also from an outsider perspective. It makes you question the credibility if they're, you know, if we're claiming that God can give you the right answer on what church to join, and you leave Joseph Smith and you go with James Strang. I mean, that's an issue not just for the Brighamite Church, which, of course would say, well, man, the devil led him away. But from anyone on the outside, you're like, these guys had no ability to tell truth from fiction. And we've shown that so many times. But, yeah, I think that's one of the issues with a lot of these witnesses.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:12:26] And, you know, we. We talked about a lot of that, but, like, the Hiram Page story with the Searstone, to me is one of the biggest kind of underspoken stories that these. The main two of the three witnesses believed he was getting revelations from God through this rock and a hat. And you just go, they can't tell what's real and what's fake.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] And.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:12:44] And that's a pretty clear sign that, you know, when you get into this and you get into the details, you could show how it was done. You could show Joseph was doing it. You can also show these people are Making mistakes all along the way.

Julia [00:12:55] Right. And then, like with. He still believed in the Book of Mormon, John Whitmer did, even though he's joined the String Church and then this Church of Christ. Like, so the Book of Mormon was so different from what the Joseph Smith was teaching at the time. Like, it condemns polygamy except under very rare circumstances or specific circumstances. And then just so many of its teachings were not Joseph. Joseph added to the Book of Mormon. It doesn't have the Book of Mormon, does not have the fullness of the Gospel. So it makes sense for these people to hold to the Book of Mormon and believe the church.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Yeah, makes sense. Okay.

Julia [00:13:27] Yeah. And the next one is Jacob Whitmer. So not much is known about Jacob Whitmer's excommunication. It could easily have been due to the Kirtland Safety Society Bank. As with the. As was. Was with the rest of the family. He joined the Church of Christ, which is David Whitmer's church, with his brother John Whitmer, and passed away in 1856, still affirming his testimony of the Book of Mormon, which we talked about earlier, where his kids just have the same kind of copy and paste testimony from their father. So, yeah, so he also was excommunicated and joined David Whitmer's church. So.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:13:57] Okay.

Julia [00:13:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] All right.

Julia [00:14:00] And then Hiram Page. Mike, do you want to join this one?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:14:05] Yeah. Hiram Page left the church when the Whitmers were all excommunicated for at least a year. Hiram Page followed James Strang from March 1846 to April 1847. Records show that on September 6, 1847, William E. McClellan baptized Hiram Page, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, and Jacob Whitmer into his newly formed Church of Christ, or the Whitmerite Church. McClellan had hoped that David would lead the church. Paige was ordained a high priest in that church and participated in the ordination of others. Paige died on his farm in Excelsior Springs, Missouri, still affirming his testimony of the Book of Mormon.

Julia [00:14:42] Thank you. So. So he also joins the Strange church and the David Wimmer. David Wimmer's church later. It's just interesting to me how all the. All the other witnesses seem to kind of stick together when. When they. After they leave the church. It's just interesting.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Okay, talk me through this. So William McClellan, he. He had the really important journal, right?

Julia [00:15:02] Yeah, I just actually bought a copy of it yesterday. Yeah, he. His journal, he kept. He keeps a really rigorous journal, and that's one of the Reasons why people can't easily deny that Joseph Smith had lived polygamy or at least in my mind because he writes down so much, so many things. So his. So his records are really was. He was very careful in his record keeping.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] And you've got. McClellan had hoped that David would lead the church. That's not Hyrum. That's. I'm just making sure I understand.

Julia [00:15:26] Oh yeah. So we're just. I just added that in there. That was probably a little bit confusing but.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] No, no, no. I'm just making sense of it all.

Julia [00:15:32] Yeah. We'll talk about. More about William McClellan and Strang. We're going to talk about these other characters too.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] Okay. I'm just reflecting. Like to me this shows that the book the. The Book of Moral Witnesses just follow whatever. Can we rely on their inspiration and why were they leaving God's one true church? What I'm getting from this, just trying to be objective is at a minimum the church should not tout these guys as credible witnesses based on this account. And that if they are going to tout them as the point we've made in previous episodes, they owe it to the membership through informed consent to inform the members about what these dudes did afterwards.

Julia [00:16:24] I totally agree. I was also thinking as you were talking that these men continue to believe the Book of Mormon. The James String James Strings Church absolutely believes the Book of Mormon. The whimmer. Right. Church does. The FLDS Church does. The church Community Christ Church to some degree believes that. Not quite as historical but there are so many other churches that believe the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is not the keystone to the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints Dude.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] Warren Jeffs war Jeff's please. Book of Mormon.

Julia [00:16:47] Freaking right.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Deborah Snuffer believes in the Book of Mormon.

Julia [00:16:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:16:52] That means nothing to the church today.

Julia [00:16:55] Right. So like as a. As a missionary you teach if you find out that this book is true, that means this specific church is true. But that's not true because so many other religions believe that the book is true. So that book being true does not equal.

Nemo [00:17:08] That's the point I wanted to bring up was that the church can't conflate their testimony, the Book of Mormon with therefore the truth claims of the Brighamite sect of the restorationist movement is true. True because there's so many other people that believe it.

Julia [00:17:23] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] No, if they're going to rely on the eight witnesses then the Strangite church is true.

Julia [00:17:27] Well, for a time they. They didn't stick with him forever. But yeah, yeah, right, yeah, okay.

Nemo [00:17:33] Rights and yeah, all manner of heights, as they would say.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:17:37] That's always the. No, I was just going to say, to Nemo's point, that's always what you run into when you talk to people. And there are still a lot of them who say Joseph Smith didn't implement polygamy, Brigham Young did and it was against God. And I'm like, well, then you're in the wrong church anyways. Because if Brigham Young wasn't a prophet, then all of a sudden your authority is gone. And if Joseph Smith did it, which you then kind of concede is wrong because you're saying Joseph didn't do it, then you're screwed either way. And I always find it funny because when you bring that up, then they kind of hop around, you know, as we all do when we're trying to protect our beliefs.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:18:06] But yeah, it, it just shows sometimes when you really start to focus on this and you make people focus on one specific issue, it becomes a lot more difficult than when you let like the fair Mormon style response to say, the CS letter where you're, you're jumping all over the place, all sorts of different apologetics that can't work with each other. And that's what, that's what you get. And so, yeah, this shows when the credibility is shot, you really then have to question what does that mean? Because it means a lot. And we're showing that in these episodes.

Nemo [00:18:34] But then there's a parallel, you know, that I could draw from a, from a sort of more believing standpoint would be that, okay, you've got these people that believe the Book of Mormon is true for whatever reason, they still believe that the things that happen to them, the experiences they had. And a lot of people when they're leaving the church more broadly, people say, oh, what about your spiritual experiences? And the thing that I've always, kind of the way I've always looked at it as well, there are still experiences that you've had. You may just have different explanations for them now, or they may mean different things to you now.

Nemo [00:19:01] And similarly, they may, the, the, the witnesses of the Book of Mormon may have gone, right, okay, well, I still believe this book is true, but I've now seen that Joseph Smith is a fallen prophet because prophets rise and prophets fall right to their mind and God has more than one prophet. They see it through scripture. So they go, right, okay, well then who's meant to be in charge? Now? That could be very much their worldview. And you see that analogous today for people that discover a lot of the problems with the Brighamite sect and go, okay, well, I still believe in the Book of Mormon.

Nemo [00:19:28] I still believe the, you know, the. The foundational parts of Mormonism. In that way, I'm going to go to Community of Christ instead. And you do get people that do that, and they find a home there, and they find that it gives them what they need. So this isn't just like, therefore, Mormon Church, everyone should leave. It's like, well, you're seeing then and now ways in which people can take parts of the church's narrative and the church's history and take it with them to other places. Yep.

Julia [00:19:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] Nice. Okay, what's next?

Julia [00:19:58] Okay, so next we're going to talk about William McClellan. And in one of the other episodes, I can't remember which one it was. It might have been part one, but I misspoke. In another episode, I said, William McClellan had a goal, had another set of gold plates, but that's not true. I misspoke. I said the wrong name. So it was just James Strang and Glad and Bishop who made those claims that they had. That they had.

Nemo [00:20:15] We're talking Mormonism. You don't need to, like, own up to mistakes and apologize. That's not one I want.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] We need to seek nor request nor offer a book.

Nemo [00:20:24] Yeah, exactly. So just

John Dehlin [00:20:27] snarky.

Nemo [00:20:28] Carry on. I was too nice earlier. I need to get some snark out.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] We're teasing Elder Dallin H. Oaks, who's on the record saying, we neither seek nor offer apologies. Okay.

Julia [00:20:38] Yeah, yeah. And he shouldn't have done that when he had such a raspy voice. It was. It just. Anyway. All right, okay. So William McClellan joined with others to form the Church of Christ or the Whitmerite Church. In 1847, McClellan called on David Whitmer to assume the presidency, claiming that Joseph had called him to lead. McClellan even visited Oliver Cowder and Emma Smith and others in hopes that they would also join the church. The church only lasted briefly before it died off. However, Years later, in 1875 and 76, David Whitmer started the Church of Christ back up again, this time without William McClellan. And I'm not exactly sure what.

Julia [00:21:13] It seems like he didn't really want William McClellan in the church the second time around. And I'm not exactly sure why. I haven't done the deep history on that one, the deep dive on that one, but, yeah. So William McClellan pushed David Wimmer to start another church because he felt that Joseph Smith had called him. I don't. I haven't. I don't know the evidence on that specifically.

Julia [00:21:31] The family was very convinced about James Strang being called by Joseph. But I haven't seen any evidence so far that Joseph at all called David Wimmer to lead the church.

John Dehlin [00:21:41] But.

Nemo [00:21:42] But then could that not have been part of the leadership debacle that was going on around the curtains?

Julia [00:21:46] That very well could have been. Because in my head it's just like David or it's just like Bergam Young is one of the biggest guys. And I guess I don't. And then. Is it Sydney rigging was the other guy.

Nemo [00:21:55] I mean, Hiram Page was vying for power when he was trying to get his own revelations. Right. So a lot of this is all men jostling for power. Jostling to make claims that could then put them in a position to lead and this and that. You know, making claims about what someone said to them that God told them to say. Etc. There's a lot of that sort of politics going on.

Julia [00:22:13] Yeah, yeah. So the next one is James Strang and he's probably the most interesting to me. If you want to put that slide up.

James Strang and Competing Plate Witnesses

John Dehlin [00:22:22] Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yep, perfect.

Julia [00:22:27] Okay. John, do you want to walk us through this slide, if you don't mind?

John Dehlin [00:22:30] Yeah. So James Strang produced 11 witnesses for his plates. Four witness. Wait, can we say something?

Julia [00:22:38] Are you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] Talk about. Didn't Joseph Smith. Isn't there good evidence that Joseph Smith designated String as his successor at some point? And are you going to talk about that?

Julia [00:22:47] Well, we'll talk about it. I'm not going to talk about it. Super in depth. But yes, his family, all of Joseph Smith's family, was very convinced that the James String was called. And we talked about this a little bit, I think with. With John C. Bennett, where he produced letters from Joseph Smith's. He said. From Joseph Smith claiming that or calling James String as the next prophet. And so, yeah, we'll kind of go through that. There's not a whole. This isn't an episode about James Strang. So I don't go into super in

John Dehlin [00:23:10] depth, but I mean, I just think it's interesting that we note that not only did a lot of the witnesses follow James Strang, I think they followed James Strang because there was decent suggestion that Joseph Smith had potentially designated Strang as a successor. Successor.

Julia [00:23:28] Absolutely. And his mother specifically did not have a doubt in her mind that. That Joseph had called James Strang Joseph

John Dehlin [00:23:34] Smith's mother, not James's mother.

Julia [00:23:36] Yeah. Joseph Smith's mother.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:23:37] Sorry.

Julia [00:23:37] Lucy Mac Smith. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] Okay.

Julia [00:23:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] All right. So James Strang. James Strang produced 11 witnesses for his plates. Everyone gets plates. You get plates. You get plates. Four witnesses for his voree plates and seven for the sealed portion of the plates, who all signed and never denied their testimonies. But of seeing the plates, all of the remaining eight witnesses, John Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer and Hyrum Page, joined James Strang's church. Additionally, of the three witnesses, both David Whitmer and Martin Harris also joined James Strang, William Smith, Joseph's brother, and Lucy Smith, Joseph's mother, and his three sisters. This is Joseph Smith's three sisters, right?

Julia [00:24:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] Sophronia, Catherine and Lucy all followed James Strang. They all followed from 1846 to 1847 after the Prophet's death. They believe that Joseph Smith truly appointed James Strang as the next prophet. Lucy even wrote in a letter, quote, I am satisfied that Joseph appointed J.J. strang. It is verily so. Letter to Reuben Headlock From Lucy Smith, May 11, 1846. Oliver Cowdery never did join with James Strang, but his father William did. That's William Cowdery. Oliver did move 12 miles from Strang's home in 1847, but it's unclear what his affiliation was with the church. That is mind blowing that not only so many of the Whitmers, but Martin Harris and so many of Joseph Smith's own family.

Julia [00:25:17] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] Hello. James Strang. That is mind blowing.

Julia [00:25:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nemo [00:25:24] So is. Oliver Cowdery was the only witness alive at that point who didn't follow a lot of my understanding.

Julia [00:25:31] Right, you're right. And then it is interesting though that he would move him, remove himself and move only 12 miles from. From Vory or from where James was.

Nemo [00:25:39] I wonder whether at that point it's just more about that he's gone through a lot with these people. These people are community that he knows and he wants to be near friends.

Julia [00:25:48] And that's true. That could very well be true. Yeah.

Nemo [00:25:50] It could be a non religious sort of social aspect to that, I would imagine. But yeah, yeah, just. It just. I think we really need to nail this point down for a second that of all the witnesses alive, only one didn't then go and join James Strang. So if you're the Brighamite church saying, yes, we were the right ones to follow Brigham Young and this was correct, and. But the witnesses that you're touting have all gone another way, that's pretty problematic.

Julia [00:26:18] Right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] All right, Mike, you want to add anything?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:26:26] No, I just. I think one of the things that they talked about or people talked about when I first started looking into all this stuff and Dan Vogel really hammers this home, is just how this is all a game of charisma. And part of that charisma is getting people to believe you're the one that was chosen by Joseph Smith, because Joseph Smith is the one who is constantly being challenged by others, but ultimately had the charisma to be the person people believe to be a prophet of God. And so, of course, straying whether it was something that people really heard from Joseph or whether it was communicated in a way that was then believed carried enough charisma to pull all of these key people to his side.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:27:06] And, and as Nemo said, that that becomes a problem really quickly when you're trying to also tout these people is having this special spiritual gift from God of discernment and all of the other things, because it just shows how messy all of it is, but more importantly, how it is.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:27:22] You know, one of the things I fall back on a lot, and I'm sure to some people this seems kind of like a cheap shot, but it's like God can send an angel down to tell, you know, little teenage girls, you know, oh, I guess to be fair, the angel would go through Joseph, but that, that they should marry Joseph Smith. But an angel can't go down and tell these witnesses, like, guys, JJ String is not the dude. It just shows how powerless God is in all of this. And it's all about charisma between all of them.

Julia [00:27:49] I will say that some of the wives did say that they see. They saw an angel, but.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:27:54] Yeah, yeah, kinda. I mean, yeah, usually the angel didn't come. I know. Well, I, I. No, no, no. I know we, we covered this in our polygamy episodes, but when they, when they claimed to see angels, wasn't it more just like a light angel in the background? It wasn't like an angel that's like, hey, yeah, we really did tell. Tell, you know, Joseph that you're to marry and have sex with him.

Nemo [00:28:17] Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:28:17] Wasn't it more just like they were. I don't know that they ever saw brightness.

Julia [00:28:21] Well, one of them, she said she saw him and then she covered her face and the angel never spoke because she.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:28:25] Yeah, and then Joseph was like, oh, you didn't, you didn't hang around to talk. Like, he, like, kind of chastises her for, like, not right sticking around, and you're just like, oh, My goodness. Like, man.

Julia [00:28:35] Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:28:35] So obvious from our perspective. But yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] Fascinating.

Julia [00:28:43] Yeah. Okay, so the next one is we're going to talk about Gladden Bishop. Nemo, do you want to.

Francis Gladden Bishop and Other Rival Claimants

John Dehlin [00:28:47] I don't even know that name.

Julia [00:28:48] Oh, yeah. Nemo, do you want to read this slide?

Nemo [00:28:50] Yeah, sure. Before Joseph Smith's death, Francis Gladden Bishop claimed that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and was excommunicated in 1842. Just to be clear with the punctuation there, Francis Gladden Bishop claimed that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet and then Francis was excommunicated.

Julia [00:29:07] Yeah. Sorry.

Nemo [00:29:08] Yeah. Francis isn't claiming that Joseph Smith was excommunicated in 42.

Julia [00:29:12] No. Yeah. Because he said Joseph was a fallen prophet. He became excommunicated. Sorry about that.

Nemo [00:29:16] I just wanted to make sure that was clear. Afterward, he claimed to have sacred items such as the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, the Urim and Thummim, the breastplate, the Liahona, the sword of Laban, and small silver crown representing the Aaronic priesthood, and a larger golden crown that represented the Melchizedek priesthood. He also claimed to have possession of the lost 116 pages. Surprise, surprise. These are those were my words. Martin Harris even followed Bishop for a time. Gladden Bishop also had witness witnesses to his plates and other items. In his pamphlet, An Address to the Sons and Daughters of zion, published in 1851, Gladden, through Revelation, called on Martin Harris and his own wife Phoebe to be witnesses. My witnesses have borne their testimony before my people in this place. Yea, and in my house, even that which my people have built and dedicated unto me in Kirtland.

Julia [00:30:08] Yeah. So there's another guy that says.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] Weird.

Julia [00:30:11] Yeah, yeah. So everyone's.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] If they were made up, anyone could claim to have all those items in their possession.

Julia [00:30:17] Right, right. And what's interesting to me is that some of those items James Strang said he had, and then even Lucy Mack Smith later said she had the Urim and Thummim. So, like, are there. Are there several Urim and Thummims? Are there several, like, swords of Laban? Like, I don't know. It's just kind of confusing because, like, the sword of Laban was later said to be in a cave that Brigham Young was describing, and it was unsheathed and things like that. So, like, everyone's saying that they have these different items. So it's. It's just curious and interesting.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Yeah, that's fascinating. And did he have any credibility or reputation with the Saints that we know of did it. Would anyone care, or was he just some random?

Julia [00:30:54] Well, Martin Harris cared. I don't know that he was necessarily random, but Martin Harris joined his church as well.

John Dehlin [00:31:00] Okay.

Julia [00:31:01] He was a witness for his plates. So, like,

John Dehlin [00:31:05] Martin Harris just. He should be disqualified. It's like, if they're a referee, it would be like, yeah, Martin Harris, you're disqualified as a witness.

Julia [00:31:14] Right. And even doing reading. I think it was the book that you were telling me. Hang on. Grant Palmer's book. I think it was in his book. But he said that Martin Harris saying that the witnesses only saw it in a vision caused a lot of people to leave the church. And so they're like, oh, I thought these were real. And, like, so they just up and left because they just realized Joseph Smith wasn't being honest with them. And so, anyway, so more problems from Martin Harris, I guess.

Nemo [00:31:41] Yeah, I'm just. I'm just having a look. I can't quite find it. I'm always talking about the restored branch of the church because, you know, it's a UK branch of the church, but started by Matthew Gill in, like, the late 2000s or early 2000s, and he claims to have been given records by an angel, and his father is one of the witnesses. And just this pattern repeats over and over again. You know, we kind of. We. We laugh a little bit. Oh, you know, Martin Harris joined in. And, yeah, Martin Harris would follow anyone the same way a dog follows anyone with food. Right. He just.

Nemo [00:32:13] Anyone that was around, he would just follow, it seems. But, you know, he chose. I. I wanted to point out that Francis Gladden chose his wife Phoebe. And there is a habit of choosing familial members to be witnesses for your book or your movement. The same way that Matthew Gill and his father is also one of his witnesses. And, you know, it's still going on today.

Julia [00:32:36] I'm curious to know. I. I don't know if Strang was related to any of his 11 witnesses, but that would be interesting to see if that was the case.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Interesting, yeah.

Nemo [00:32:45] Do we. Do we know who they are?

Julia [00:32:47] Yeah, they're listed. I just don't have them.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:32:48] Okay.

Julia [00:32:49] I just don't have them up on here.

Nemo [00:32:50] Because it would also be interesting to see if any of the Book of Mormon witnesses became witnesses to Strang.

Julia [00:32:55] No, I don't think so. I don't. I don't think there are any of the 11, but it would be interesting to see if the 11 were related to String.

Nemo [00:33:01] Okay.

Julia [00:33:01] His own. Yeah. Okay, so this next one, we're going to talk about the. What happened to the other witnesses. So Josiah Stoll. We talked about these in the last episode. Josiah Stoll was one of the men who hired Joseph Smith as a treasure seal seer or glass looker. He joined the church in 1830, but never left New York. So he. He left the main body of the. Of the saints and he passed away in 1844. So even though he. He saw a corner of the plates, I guess it wasn't enough for him to. To keep going with the saints. So he eventually.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] Can I just say that's fascinating. So I, I had. I had tried to get y' all to confirm my memory which the Josiah stole, which was the one who hired Joseph and his dad to come help him find a silver mine in the Susquehanna area. And that's how Joseph meets Isaac and Emmahail.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] But we all know that no treasure was ever found. And I think it's really important to mention that even though Joseph Smith never found any silver with Josiah stole. Even though Josiah stole. Paid Joseph to find silver and Joseph did the whole like, oh, it's there, but it's too far down. Oh, the angel took it away. That Josiah Stol not only continued believing and testified. I believe in Joseph's trial that he still believed Joseph had special powers. Even though Joseph never found anything. It's mindboggling that he joined the church in 1830.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Because what that shows is that Joseph was able to convince people he had special powers even when they could see that he didn't. And I think that's kind of when

Nemo [00:34:44] I think that's important or certainly when the. The product of those powers, the thing that should have come of those powers never came.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] Yeah.

Nemo [00:34:51] Finding of the treasure. Yeah.

Julia [00:34:53] Yeah. But. But just enough happened that convinced them because like, I think one of the stories was that they. The chest. They were trying to get this treasure chest and they got the corner of it off, but the rest of it sank into the earth and somebody was able to keep the corner of this. This chest or the story of the feather, like you mentioned earlier, Mike. Like they'll. Joseph will bring them to just. Just far enough and then they'll be convinced and. But he will never. But they never found any treasure. So.

Nemo [00:35:17] And it's a testament to the power of persuasion or the charisma of Joseph Smith. Like, I think the thing that church apologists have to try and do is paint Joseph Smith as illiterate or uneducated or just in. In inconsequential in any way. When actually what you realize is he has something about him he must do in order to get people to follow him and to keep communities together in this way that there has to be something about him, even if he does have a funny whistle when he speaks, you know.

Julia [00:35:46] And an accent.

Nemo [00:35:46] Yeah, and an accent.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] And I just want to say I. I think we need to really understand. Joseph's special power was convincing people he had power when he didn't. Yeah, that was his special power because everyone wanted to find someone who had access to God and who had special powers. And he was good at convincing people he had access to God and that he had special powers. What an honest person would say, I don't have special powers. And an honest person would say, I don't talk to God. Right. That provides an opening for a dishonest person to claim divine access and special powers to fool people. And that's what charlatans do.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:36:29] So, I mean, it's like what a psychic does, right? So you go to a psychic and they ask you a bunch of questions, and you give them all this information, and when you walk away, you don't think like, oh, my goodness, they missed on all of these questions. You think, holy crap, they knew my grandmother died from a heart issue, and they were able to connect me to her. And they don't feel like they were duped. You know what I mean? And so Joseph Smith had that same ability of getting people to string them along. And even when he failed, because obviously there's no such thing as guardian spirits guarding treasure, they still felt like even after they wasted their money on it, they were so close.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:37:07] They were so close. And it just shows, you know, when you want to believe something, you can get your mind to believe it even after you've been lied to and deceived for, you know?

Nemo [00:37:16] And, yeah, Joseph has the social skills. Joseph has the social skills and the ability to read people, to understand. How do I have to talk to this person to get them to feel like it's either to get someone to feel like it's their fault that something didn't work that he promised, or to get someone to feel like they're both in it together and they've both lost out on this treasure and I'm just as shocked as you are type thing, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:37:40] Oh, 100%.

Nemo [00:37:42] There's a skill in that, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] Fascinating. Anyway, I didn't mean to derail.

Julia [00:37:47] Oh, you're. No, you're totally fine.

Martin Harris and Witness Inconsistencies

John Dehlin [00:37:48] Okay.

Julia [00:37:49] So Emma Smith did not join the Saints to Salt Lake. Instead, she supported her son, Joseph Smith iii, who started his own church, the RLDS Church, now the Community of Christ Church. And so she. So that's how it ended with her. She went off with a. The RLDS or a community of Christchurch. So. So even though she was a witness in a way that she was able to hold them and feel them, she eventually did leave the main body of the Saints.

Julia [00:38:12] And then Mary Whitmer was excommunicated in 1838 with the rest of the Whitmer family. She moved to Richmond, Missouri, where she lived until she passed away. Lucy Mack Smith, and this is Joseph Smith's mother. She's. She for a time followed James Strangler and. Sorry, I kind of left that blank. So she did eventually rejoin the. I. I should say she sort of stayed at the main body of the Saints to the sense of she helped. She gave a. One of the very few rare times where a woman gives a talk in general conference. She spoke and she said, I'm going to stay here because I can't make this journey.

Julia [00:38:41] Which is probably very wise of her. But so she. And then she stayed back and she stayed kind of with. With Emma. But I don't think she. I don't know if she. What her affiliation was with the community of Christ, if there was any.

Julia [00:38:53] So, yeah, she. I guess you could say that she stayed with the church, but she did follow James Tring and then come back to the church. Then William Smith, Joseph Smith's brother, was appointed one of the Twelve Apostles in 1835. In 1839, he was suspended from fellowship for speaking against Joseph Smith. He was later reinstated and published an apology in 1840. In 1845, he was dropped as one of the twelve, and as a patriarch of the church, he was excommunicated on October 12th of 1845. He later joined James String was excommunicated from there and then joined the RLDS Church or the Community of Christ Church.

Julia [00:39:29] So I think that he and Brigham might have had some beef, and that's why Brigham didn't want to keep him in. Then Catherine Salisbury, who was Joseph Smith's sister, followed James Strang's church for a time. She did not endorse the teachings of Brigham Young and later joined the rlds, or Community of Christchurch. She passed away in Illinois.

Julia [00:39:48] And then Lucy Harris, whom we talked about earlier, she had that dream about the plates. She's Martin Harris's wife. She separated from her husband sometime after 1830. In 1833, she claimed, along with J.W. stoddard, that Martin Harris was an abusive man and would frequently abuse her, whipping her, kicking her. Lucy even reported that Martin Harris was having an affair with a neighbor. So I thought that was an interesting little perspective of Martin Harris as well. So.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] Yeah, again, another reason to disqualify Martin Harris.

Julia [00:40:18] Right, right. He was not a. Not a great husband, Although.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Well, go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo [00:40:23] I was gonna say from. From a. From. From a believing perspective, people will say, well, you know, these people aren't meant to be perfect. You know, they can still be valid witnesses the Book of Mormon and beat their wife. Or, you know, like, we have. We have lost the. Genuinely. We've lost the position where these men have to be moral in order to be prophets of God. Because the excuses come thick and fast, even when their behavior is patently immoral. People go, well, they don't have to be a good guy. They just have to be listening to God. Which is weird, but that is a position held by apologists and people trying to keep their faith intact.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:40:56] And if you hold that position, then you have to ask why they couldn't have invited, like, say, a local reporter, a local politician, someone, you know, someone who could actually go in and say, holy crap, Joseph wasn't making it up. Instead of people that were related to him and friends and family. But, you know, small details.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] The other thing I want to just note is, you know, people like. For. Let's say Oliver and Martin did return to the church someday. Like, what does that really mean? Like, William Smith returned to the church, but eventually was dropped from the 12, excommunicated and then joined Strang was excommunicated and then joined the RLDS Church. Like, I think this sort of speaks to the point that once your fame, your status, your reputation is tied to Mormonism, you're a nobody outside of a Mormon context. And so if William would go as far as to join Strang or the RLDS Church, it's gotta be because no one would care about him otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] And that speaks to me to the relevance of Oliver or Martin eventually coming crawling back as witnesses to the church. I don't think that means much other than life gets super hard and you'll be celebrated as a celebrity wherever people will celebrate you, you know?

Nemo [00:42:14] Well, yeah, there's a lot of social capital in being the brother of the man that put the Book of Mormon in everyone's hands. Right. Whoever he did it. There's a lot of capital in that.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Yeah. Yeah.

Julia [00:42:24] And it makes me wonder about, like, Martin Harris joining Gladden Bishop and being a witness for his plates. Whereas eventually he did leave Gladden Bishops Church and he rejoined the main body of the Saints. I wonder if Gladden's church just didn't take off as well as, as the Brighamite church or if, if there was just more to be found in the main body, like the more fame. I guess, if, if you're going to go that route.

Nemo [00:42:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Again, it just speaks to how these people just in general are not credible people. They're just not right. And spiritual witnesses aren't credible ways of discerning truth. Right. Full stop. I, I, we were doing an episode on Heaven's Gate recently, you know, about this cult in Southern California that ended up, you know, all dying by suicide and they all bore their testimonies just like Mormons do.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] Their testimonies of Marshall Applewhite and Doe and Tea and how they know that when Hale Bopp comes and the space saucer comes, that when they die they're going to go up to the space saucer. They were crying and, and saying that their testimonies were, were, you know, were true, just like a believing Mormon. And I think all of this just condemns Mormon epist epistemology that our feelings can, can tell us whether something's true or not. All our feelings tell us is that something feels good. That's all our feelings can tell us.

Julia [00:43:46] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:43:48] Anyway, all right, let's keep going.

Julia [00:43:52] Okay, so all of those who left the church still had great reason to defend their testimony of the Book of Mormon, which we talked about as it was a continued part of their religious experience. So again, just because they held to the Book of Mormon, so many other religions held to the Book of Mormon. It doesn't mean that this church is true.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] Yeah. Yep.

Julia [00:44:10] And then so now we're going to talk about the inconsistencies of witnesses. Sure.

Nemo [00:44:13] Just real quick point is that is why you possibly never growing up will have ever realized that, that the, the fundamentalist church believe the Book of Mormon. Right. It's often news to a lot of people later in life that, hang on, these are the people believe the Book of Mormon too, because we almost try and make the Book of Mormon just as in the Brighamite section. Like, no, this is just us. We're the only ones that believe this. So no, actually it's the, it's the fundamental extra scripture of a lot of these groups.

Julia [00:44:43] Yeah, yeah, many, so many other churches. Yeah. Not just the flds, but yeah, I didn't know that either as an active member of the church. So that's a good point.

Nemo [00:44:50] Well, because the Church doesn't want you thinking that Warren Jeffs is teaching from the Book of Mormon.

Julia [00:44:54] Right, right.

Nemo [00:44:56] That's not going to help them.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:44:58] And one thing they really don't want you to know is that. Well, no, and to your point, this is something I never thought of as a believing member either. Is that because you always hear like, when people talk about the fundamentalist sex, they always make it sound like they just have their own crazy ways, but it's like, no, they actually believe in the Book of Mormon and they take literal the fact that DNC 132 is still canonized, which whatever we want to say about the official proclamation, DNC132 is still there. So you could make an argument. I mean, I think it's fundamentalist sex or horrible, but you can make the argument that they're living the truer church as Joseph Smith would have foreseen it, than what Russell Nelson is leading today in a more mainstreamed kind of, we're just like all the other Christian kind of sex at Mormonism is doing with, with.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:45:42] With what they're watering down today. But yeah, I mean, not only do they believe the same things that the. The Brighamite sect believes, but you can make an argument that they believe the church as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young saw it more than we do today.

Julia [00:45:56] Yeah. And I think you can see that with some of the other doctrines. If I'm not mistaken, they believe in the blood atonement and the Adam God doctrine. I think that the FLDS still holds to those. And so because of that, it makes me. It makes it sort of gives a little bit more credibility to our church history in the past of us teaching those things of blood atonement and Adam God. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Yeah. Okay. Inconsistencies of the witnesses.

Problems with the Eight Witnesses Statement

Julia [00:46:19] Yeah. So we've talked about some of these before, but I wanted to make this point. So for the eight witnesses, Hiram Page never claimed outside of the. The witness statement that he handled the plates. Jacob Wimmer's remain. Jacob Wimmer's remaining testimonies are the same. And they do not say that he saw or handled the plates. And we have no further testimonies from Peter Whitmer Jr. And Christian Whitmer. So in taking higher pages, testimony of quote, what I saw as not specifically saying that he saw the plates, then only half of the witnesses made outside claims of seeing and handling the plates.

Julia [00:46:50] So. So you have John Whitmer, who we have multiple testimonies from him. You have Joseph Smith Sr. Who I give, I think only has one other Testimony outside of the witness statement. And Hyrum Smith and then Samuel Smith, who I think only has two, and then. So the rest of them, Hiram Paige, Christian, Jacob, Peter, they don't say anything. So only half of them.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] Go ahead, finish your sentence.

Julia [00:47:13] Yeah, so only half of the witnesses, half of the eight say anything else outside of the witness statement.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] And when you add to this that the witness document that we have appeared to have been signed by a single person, not them, that adds to the question of whether the. The eight witnesses statement was problematic for many reasons. Right?

Julia [00:47:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:35] Not to mention their craziness,

Julia [00:47:39] their magic worldview and things like that. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Okay.

Julia [00:47:42] Okay. So where and when and where did they see the plates? So Lucy Mack Smith said that the eight witnesses repaired to a grove and there they saw the plates. John Wimmer said that the four. That four of the eight witnesses viewed the plates in Joseph Smith's house. John Whitmer is not sure where the other four witnesses saw the plates. Some have tried to say that the other four saw them in a grove so as to make both stories true, which I think is an interesting apologetic thing to say. But. So there's inconsistencies on where it took place. And in the witness statement, we don't have any that doesn't say where. Where it took place or nor does it say when it took place.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] Okay, so problems with the. With the details.

Julia [00:48:19] Right?

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Yeah.

Julia [00:48:20] And then this is also really interesting to me. So what did they see? So Joseph Smith Sr's description of the plates, as we talked about before, is so very different from the rest of the witnesses. And I have little pictures here that I sketched.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] Oh, nice work, Julia.

Julia [00:48:35] Yeah. So the. The one on. On the right is Joseph Smith Sr's description. It's a longer, it's thinner, it doesn't. And he says several rings, which could be. I guess it could be three, but I put four on here. And then the other plates is the one that the other witnesses describe as 8 inches by 6 inches by 6 inches. And then there's a sealed portion, which Joseph Smith Sr. Never describes. So they're super different in descript in the way that they're being described. And then Josiah Soule says that the plates were of a greenish cast, yet no other witness described them this way. And then Orson Pratt, who was not a witness at all, claims that the plates were stained with. With a black, hard stain, which no one else describes.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] And so even that maybe Joseph was using different plates at different times to try and, you know, convince people and he was always hiding them with the cloth anyway. Why is he hiding him to begin with? And then. And then if people are seeing different colors, it cast doubt on whether he was just making different types of plates at different times to please people.

Julia [00:49:38] Right, right, right. So it's just super inconsistent. Yeah. All those things.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] Yeah.

Julia [00:49:43] The color, the sizing, it just sort of feels like Joseph's not. Maybe not using the same prop throughout the. Throughout the history. If he is using a prop.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] It's kind of like the first vision.

Julia [00:49:53] Yeah. Where it gets. Yeah. I think most of what Joseph goes through is it gets sharper over time rather than duller, which is how history and memories work.

John Dehlin [00:50:03] Yeah. Interesting.

Physical Descriptions of the Plates Examined

Julia [00:50:05] Okay, so this is what we've talked about before, but I just think it's really important. So how thick were the plates? Mike, do you want to actually read this one? Or Nemo?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:50:14] Yeah, I can read it if you're voice. Emma Smith. That's fine. Emma Smith said the plates were pliable like thick paper and would wrestle with metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb. As one. Sometimes. As one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book. David Whitmer said the pages are thick as parchment. John Whitmer said that the plates were just so thick the characters could be engraven on both sides. Martin Harris said that they were of the thickness of plates of tin. And Orson Pratt, who was not an actual witness of the plates, said that plates were not quite as thick as common tin.

Julia [00:50:48] Thank you. So I was just thinking like. So, John, you have. And I think Nemo, you have a copy of the plates too, that are made from tin from one of the viewers of Mormon stories. And it's. They are not pliable like paper. It's very. It's. It's very sturdy metal. And even as I'm reading this, like. So David Wimmer and Emma and. And Martin and Orson never handled the plates. Emma's the only one who actually about. Of all the. Of all this list. Oh, I guess John Whitmer too. So Emma got to feel them. And John Whitmer is saying that he also got to feel them, and then he's saying that they were engraving on both sides. I don't know. I just feel like that it's very inconsistent with what we know about metal and engraving on both sides.

Nemo [00:51:28] And I find it really interesting that Martin Harris described them as the thickness of plates of tin, almost as though that's what they were. It actually strikes me as a recent weird descriptor, given that one of the leading Theories for a prop set is that they were just plates of tin.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Tin feels a lot differently than gold.

Nemo [00:51:52] It's a lot lighter.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] Yeah, yeah. Oh, lighter.

Nemo [00:51:56] So tin's lighter than gold? Yeah, yeah. It's less dense.

Julia [00:52:00] Yeah. So, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] It's at this point where I just think it's silly that we're even talking about it. It's like, can hobbits beat elves? You know, it's so silly at this point. I know, Mike, we've talked about that before.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:52:16] That's why I mentioned it at the first episode. This reminds me of the book Abraham. To a certain extent, the book Abraham is a lot more concrete as far as Joseph just being flat out wrong and what he was saying he was doing. But the. To a certain extent, once you realize that their stories are changing and yet they kind of like.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:52:33] I'm trying to think of the word here, where they kind of combine them all into one very solid, fluid story. And you know that now they're willing to kind of brush over some of these inconsistencies to create that cohesive story. You already know the official statement of the Book of Mormon is not how it happened.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:52:50] We can all argue as to whether or not they had an experience, but we know that the way that the three witnesses in the Book of Mormon is portrayed did not happen based on Joseph Smith's own history. So once you have those details now, the burden shifts to them because now, you know, they've already fudged details to make it a more cohesive story. And so to a certain extent, this could be a very short. This four episodes could have been a short episode saying, here's what they said happened. Here's what we know from their own words happen. It's not credible. I mean, it really does boil down to that.

Nemo [00:53:19] Yeah, but you know us, Mike. We like to drag things out here at Mormon stories. That's how we know how we do it.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] No, that's funny. But also no. I mean, if I have. One thing I've learned over the past 20 years is that Mormonism doesn't wash off. If you've been raised in a high demand religion with all this education slash indoctrination for decades and decades, if you taught it, if you believed it, if you knew it was true. It takes people decades sometimes to distance themselves or rewire their brains from the conditioning that they obtained as a devout member of a high demand religion or cult. That's just a fact. So people can't. That's why Mormon stories exist. People can't get Enough of processing and learning and deprogramming their conditioning.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:54:15] Well, yeah, and I think when I did. Yeah, when I did the website, it was like, okay, so you're doing these topics that should be pretty straightforward and simple. Like, if you talk to someone that had nothing to do with Mormonism, I'm excuse the Book of Abraham, because I feel like there's parallels here. It wouldn't take long for them to go, oh, my goodness, this guy made it up horribly. But if you were to do an episode that was 30 minutes and you say, this is what Joseph Smith said, it said, this is what it actually says. This is when he said it was written, this one.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:54:40] The church even admits it was dated to blah, blah. Then you have a lot of apologetic podcasts and websites. We'll just say, like, you know, fair Mormon, Book of Mormon central does this crap all the time. And they'll then plow through what you don't say. And it sucks because it's like, we shouldn't have to go through all these details. But if you don't, then they'll go, isn't that funny that they left this part out? Well, no, it's not funny. It's just irrelevant. And more to the point, of plates, go watch. What? But I implore all of you, go watch the presentations from Book of One in Central on historicity of.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:55:14] Of plates in ancient America in the Old World. And just think about what they're not telling you, because it is one of the most dishonest, weaselly approaches to apologetics you'll ever see. Because they'll use words like this could mean this or this shows the technology existed somewhere else, but nowhere will you find one single example that fits what you need for the Book of Mormon. And they've given presentations firesides. And so if you're a believing member and you see that, you go, oh, my goodness, these critics are totally lying to us. No, no, no, no. The apologists are picking out these little data points have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:55:50] And they're blowing it up to say, well, this could be. This could fulfill this requirement. It doesn't. So we have to do four episodes on the Witnesses, which really should be a half hour episode, because you have to cover these points. Because if you don't, then you've got a lot of people that will try to drive these semi trucks through and say, well, look at what they didn't say. So we have to do it. So I apologize for all of you people that are like, why are we beating this Dead horse. It's because.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:56:11] Yeah, and it really is because. And that's why when I did the website, I was constantly reading apologetics and then putting it back into these topics and saying, here are the common apologetics, here's why they don't work. And you need to. Because otherwise. And I've gotten this so many times, well, here's a fair Mormon article. Why didn't you address it? It's like, well, one, I did address it. And two, the reason it's crap is xyz. I can go up against any of that and explain why it's bad. Whereas apologetics, when they do it, they just dance around, expand the universe, and say, here's what they're not telling you.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:56:39] And so I'm sorry to go on this little rant, but it is important as to address why we have to go into such detail on something that's not credible.

Nemo [00:56:46] Well, to, to wrap that, I guess you'd say that expanding the universe is key because what they've done is if you only addressed the Hill, Cumorah, or if you only address the archaeological problems with the Book of Mormon as they exist in the, the North America model, they would go, ah, but what about all this in South America? And you have to go, well, Joseph Smith and everyone, it was contemporary to his time believed it all happened here. It was in the, it was in the footnotes of the Book of Mormon that it happened here for a very long time.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:57:14] Yep.

Nemo [00:57:15] Until the early 1900s. So that's why I'm not addressing all these things. And that's the problem with them kind of expanding the universe and doing that. Sorry, John, I'm the one who complains about it being too long because I'm a, I'm a, I'm a young man with no attention span, thanks to Tick tock.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] I don't believe it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:57:30] Well, no, and, and I'll make one more point. Just because Animal Nemo's point is good. So let's just say this. My fist is like the Book of Mormon universe where they come to an unpopulated place that was cleared out by the flood, and you're like, DNA shows that that's not what happened. And then you've got these apologists who will write articles, basically. And I'm paraphrasing because they don't actually say this. They'll say, you dumb idiots, you didn't realize the world is actually here. So Book of Mormon was here, but this huge world existed. It's like, no, it didn't. And when they Send the scriptures that they say refer to it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:58:01] When you read them in context, they absolutely do not refer to there being these larger populations. And so that's where apologists continue to expand the universe, because you have to. Because if you stay within the universe that was written and it's. Joseph Smith described it as all of the prophets of Mormonism described up until DNA proved that that wasn't the case, you're screwed. So you have to go bigger. And then when you go bigger, you don't address the actual issue. You just give you reasons why. If you just believe a certain way, it could work. It's similar to any other conspiracy, whether it's. I'm not equating the two. I'm just saying that's where you go.

Nemo [00:58:35] But it's almost the same as the pattern Joseph Smith established right at the beginning, where it's always over the next hill. It's always buried just a little bit deeper. It's always just beyond the reach of the treasure diggers. Right. The. You know, you've. Okay, you just need to have a little bit more faith, you just need to do a little bit more this, just do a little bit more that, and then it'll all make sense. It's always just over the horizon. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:58:55] Yep.

Nemo [00:58:56] Love it. There we go.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Well, go ahead. No, no.

Nemo [00:58:59] I was gonna say. And on that note, let us move on, huh?

John Dehlin [00:59:03] All right.

Julia [00:59:04] So I found a source that I thought was pretty interesting. Not this one specifically, but the next one. So in the question of did they sign the witness statement? So, according to the Deseret News article published In November of 1878, David Widmer confirmed that the three witnesses signed their own names. In an interview with David Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith stated, nemo, do you want to actually read this one?

Nemo [00:59:24] Yeah. We found that the names of the 11 witnesses were, however, subscribed in the handwriting of Oliver Cowdery. When the question was asked Mr. Whitmer if he and the other witnesses did or did not sign the testimonies themselves, Mr. W. Replied, each signed his own name.

Nemo [00:59:43] Then where are the original signatures? David Whitmer said, I don't know. I suppose Oliver copied them, but this I know, is an exact copy. Someone suggested that he, being the last one left of the 11 witnesses, he sought to certify to this copy. Lawyer D. Whitmer, Jacob's son, suggested that he had better reflect about it first and be very cautious. Joseph F. Smith suggested that perhaps there were two copies of the manuscript. But Mr. Whitmer replied that According to the best of his knowledge, there never was but the one copy herein, of course, he is evidently uninformed, because he has to be, because again, we have to expand the universe that there might be another copy somewhere to avoid all the problems. Sorry, Julia, go ahead.

Julia [01:00:29] No, yeah, that was. I was going to say. And then I also think it's interesting that the. David Wimmer's son Jacob is a lawyer and he's like getting. He's like, be careful what you say. I thought that was really interesting. But also then I found this other source. This is seven years after this other one from the Deseret News. So in an interview that took place on June 28th of 1885, so that's again seven years later with James Henry Moyle, David Wimmer gave a different answer as to whether they signed the witness statement.

Julia [01:00:54] The witnesses did not sign the original manuscript, though they were present and ordered Oliver Cowdery to sign for them. Moyle himself noted in his diary, quote, this is him talking. The statement that the three witnesses did not sign the manuscript, but that Oliver Cowdery signed for them and at the. And at their request is doubtless true. As to the copy which David Whitmer had, the writing itself indicates that. So he's saying that it's all in Oliver Cowdry's headwinding. This makes total sense. Joseph Fielding Smith, church historian, says his father said that in his interview and that of Orson Pratt, David Wimmer admitted that the three witnesses signed the original manuscript.

Julia [01:01:30] So. So he's saying that there's two different statements that are being made. This earlier one from David Wimmer with his interview with Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith. And I just thought that was really interesting because, like, why would. Why would David Wimmer say two different things? Why would he say that at first they did not they did sign, and then later he say that they did not sign because a lawyer told him

Nemo [01:01:50] to be very careful.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] That's sketchy.

Julia [01:01:55] Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:56] Okay.

Julia [01:01:57] And then additionally, in the same interview with James Henry Moyle and David Wimmer, this is. This is Henry Moyle talking. Mr. David Wimmer senior did not handle the plates, only seen. Saw them, says Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery did so. So they say, says he did see them and the angel and heard him speak, but that it was incredible that it was through the power of God and was possibly in the spirit at least. He then spoke to Paul hearing. He then spoke of Paul hearing and seeing Christ, but his associates did not, because it is only seen in the spirit. I was not fully satisfied with the explanation. It was more spiritual than I. Than I anticipated. So that's James Henry saying that I wasn't satisfied. So this is another source of them saying that this is a spiritual, spiritual occurrence rather than a physical one.

John Dehlin [01:02:45] And that's what Grant Palmer brought to us, to our attentions, this idea of a spiritual witness versus a physical witness. But the whole point of having witnesses and of, you know, publishing their statements is to give everyone the impression that something physical, corporeal, temporal, happened. Because anybody can have a vision or a dream of anything. Including Chad Dabel and Lori Valo and Julie Row. Right.

Julia [01:03:13] Yeah. If the plates aren't physical, then there's no point in any of these statements.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] Yeah.

Julia [01:03:17] Any of the.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] The.

Julia [01:03:19] Yeah.

Nemo [01:03:19] Because what I always understood was that three witnesses were there for the spiritual witness and the eight witnesses were there for the physical witness. Right. That's, you know, because the three saw, but the eight held. And so if the ones that held didn't actually hold, then

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:03:36] what.

Nemo [01:03:36] What are they for? What use are they?

John Dehlin [01:03:39] Yeah.

Julia [01:03:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] Okay.

Accounts of Seeing the Plates in Vision Only

Julia [01:03:42] And then. So adding these ones that we've talked about earlier today and then. And then in the previous episodes. So there's three more sources. There's Theodore Turley. He says that John Whitmer said that the plates were shown by supernatural power. And then Thomas Ford, which we discussed earlier in another episode, the eight witnesses looked into an empty box and were persuaded that they saw the plates. And then this one with James Henry Moyle, he says that David Widmer saw the plates through the power of God and was possibly in the spirit, at least much like that, much like Paul in the Book of Acts.

Julia [01:04:12] And so with these three sources, we add it to the 10 that we talked about earlier. We now have 13 accounts of the witnesses seeing only a vision of the plates and not. Not in reality. Yeah. Mike, are you able to read. Just read that list for the people for. Just to recap everything.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:04:31] Yeah. So Stephen Burnett said, vision or imagination all hesitated to sign already written testimonies. Jesse Townsend said that Martin saw the plates with spiritual eyes. John A. Clark said that Martin saw the plates with the eye of faith. Anthony Metcalf said Martin passed into a state of entrance and saw the angel in plates.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:04:55] John H. Gilbert said that Martin saw the plates with a spiritual eye. Reuben P. Harmon said Martin saw them only in a spiritual vision. John Murphy said that David said that the experience was an impression. The angel had no appearance or shape.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:05:11] Anthony. Anthony Metcalfe also said that David said, of course we were in the Spirit, when we held, had that had the view and agreed with Martin that it was being in a vision. Zenith H. Gurley said David said that they did not handle the plates and it was only a holy vision. Edward Stevenson said the witnesses were favored with a vision. Theodore Turley said John Whitmer said that the plates were shown by a supernatural power. Thomas Ford said the eight witnesses looked into an empty box and were persuaded that they saw the plates. James Henry Moyle said that David Whitmer saw the plates through the power of God and was possibly in the spirit, at least much like Paul in the Book of Acts.

Julia [01:05:51] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] That's a lot of, that's a lot of problematic statements. That's a, that's a large number.

Julia [01:05:57] Yeah, it is. And so even if it's just, even if it's, if you take all the witness statements ever made and this is only a fraction like Richard Lord Anderson was saying, that's only like 5%. I still think that this 5% is a really good, I don't know what the, what the right word is. It's a really good way to reframe everything. Oh, if some of them say it was vision only, then it's possible that all of it is vision only. It doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:22] And this may be an obvious point but like how many of us have ever actually seen of an angel standing there face to face? How many of us have ever had any sort of ancient artifact delivered to us so that we could touch it? Literally? None of us, none of us that

Nemo [01:06:41] are saying Mike's claiming it.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Oh, Mike did.

Nemo [01:06:45] Yeah, Mike's claiming to.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] Mike, tell us. I'll start, I'll join your church.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:06:50] I can't. But, but, but my, my, my uncle, my wife, my brother in law, my sister, they can all claim, claim it. I mean like, yeah, I'm being, I'm being, I try not to be facetious on these episodes but this is where you go with this stuff and to Julia's point. And, and I know there's going to be pushback from people who watch this and say, well, you're not focusing on all of the statements that promote faith. And that's true. But you know, I've said this a lot in this four part series that go to a Mormon ward on a Sunday and give this story and talk about the discrepancies, but don't say it's Mormonism, say it's, say it's for the Strangites, whatever.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:07:31] They will all tell you, oh yeah, they made it up because God wouldn't let them leave, go to the wrong church, they wouldn't give misleading statements. And that's the point. The point is that when you're born into it, when you join not knowing this stuff, you then make excuses for why there's these differences and why they have these discrepancies and really basic details. But from an out, from the outside perspective looking in, it is really obvious that there are a lot of issues with the story. And this doesn't even get into the historicity of the Book of Mormon and the plates to begin with. So I think to Julia's point, the 5% are what give you the ability to get a deeper look.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:08:05] Because it's almost like if everybody gave the exact same story throughout their lifetime, either it happened and it's rehearsed or it happened and they're not making it up. But if they're starting to tell different stories, there's a reason for that. They're not just misremembering these really important details.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] And also the fact, to me, the fact that so many people in the 19th century were laser focused on trying to figure out what really happened, you know, all the way into the late 1800s, you've got even like high level Mormon church leaders trying to hunt down Harris or Cowdery to say now or Whitmer, like, what happened again, like, can you, you know, the fact that so many people, including faithful Mormons, spent so much time trying to figure out what really happened and nail that down sort of validates not only that I'm. That I, and all of us are wondering now, but that people back then were clearly not convinced or sure about what happened. Am I wrong?

Julia [01:09:06] No, I think that's totally right.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Yeah. Why were so many people talking about this and asking about it and interviewing them in the 1870s and 1880s? It's because there was always question about the corporeal, physical, tangible legitimacy of their claims.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:09:24] Yeah. And why was there an uprising in Kirtland that was specifically focused on the fact that these, all these people in the church were just finding out for the first time that the three witnesses never actually held the plates because it was a vision. Like, that's not critics just making this up and throwing it back in the discussion. This is a hot topic issue at the time. This is a contempt. This isn't even like 50 years later. This is at the time. And all these people are finding this out for the first time. They're not making that up. I mean, the fact that we have multiple documents And.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:09:57] And accounts of this. And then Martin Harris even has to go back and try to kind of write the ship after he causes the stir. These are real things that you have to deal with. And so, again, back to Julia's point of, you know, Richard Lloyd Anderson, right. Saying, well, 95 of them are. Are consistent, well, that's fine. But the fact that these are inconsistent and everyone in the church is like, wait, what? That is something you can't just brush aside and say, well, they got it right 95 times. So that 5% isn't an issue. No, it's a huge issue because it tells you that the accounts in the Book of Mormon are not as they

Nemo [01:10:29] actually happened when the stakes are this high. And the amount of. Yeah, the amount of people's lives and people's belief systems that rests upon these witnesses and what these people are saying, like, that's why these things matter. I know we've talked about why the witnesses don't really matter, but they matter because of the stock that people place in them. And when it's at that level, and if that's God's mechanism for ensuring that people have a reason to see the Book of Mormon as credible, then that 5%'s unacceptable, I would argue. Right. That's. That's a fly in the ointment that shouldn't be there.

Weighing the Evidence Against the Book of Mormon

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:11:07] Or, you know, I think I may have used this example in an earlier episode, but imagine you suspect your spouse of cheating on you, and 95 of the time, you can't find any evidence or cheating on you. But then 5%, you can. You wouldn't go, I'm so silly. 5%, that's nothing. You'd be like, holy crap, this dude is cheating on me. Or this.

Nemo [01:11:24] Yeah. Unless we subscribe to this version of the Mormon God that likes to trick people and likes to create problems for people's faith. Right. Because that is. That is the retreat of apologists to go, well, you know, this is a test of your faith. And you have to ask just how many reasons to doubt? Would God give you compelling reasons to doubt? Would he give you before you go, well, maybe. Am I meant to. Is he really trying to get me to believe this? Because, you know, he's undermined the witnesses he sent me. He's made the details of the vision that the prophet received unclear because he's given multiple accounts of it.

Nemo [01:11:56] He's made physiology. He's made it against the laws of physics, for the plates to exist and operate. As Joseph Smith said, they were all these sorts of things, right. You're like, how many of those are meant to be trials of my faith before I kind of just throw my hands up in the air and go, you're a difficult person to deal with.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:12:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] All right. We're not letting Julie get through these slides, but that's fine. Everybody should screenshot this slide and. And then go. Reg Palmer's book on an insider's so good. Yeah.

Julia [01:12:28] And I'm not going to say that this is all of them, but this is just the ones that I was able to gather. So there might be more.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] Absolutely.

Julia [01:12:33] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] Yep. Okay.

Julia [01:12:36] Okay. So the next thing I want to talk about is the fact that the buried metal plates was common. Was a common part of Joseph's milieu. It was just super well known. And I. I don't know if it's appropriate to say this, but I'm responding specifically to one apologist who claim that because.

Nemo [01:12:52] Call them out. Call them. You don't have to.

Julia [01:12:57] Well, anyway, so the. The. This apologist said that because. No. Everyone was of the mindset that no records were buried on metal plates. That any. Any records buried on metal plates. Is. This is a. Is a credibility.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] Is a win.

Julia [01:13:12] Yeah, is a win. It lends credibility to Joseph Smith's story and that mostly. This all mostly stems from the golden bible by mt. Lamb. And John, if you throw that back up there. Okay, so. So there's a quote published when? 1887.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] Okay.

Julia [01:13:31] I think. I kind of think it came earlier, but I have. The one I have is 1887.

John Dehlin [01:13:36] Okay. Okay.

Julia [01:13:39] That's probably not correct because I think that. I think the.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] I could look it up while you're reading it.

Julia [01:13:43] Okay, perfect. Because I think the Tanners talked about that being an earlier source. Yeah, but, Nima, do you want to read that big block of text from the book?

Nemo [01:13:50] Some apologists have tried to use mt. Lam's ignorant statement concerning golden plates as a way to bolster the testimony of the three innate witnesses. In his book, the golden bible, mt Lam stated. But after a very careful study of the book of Mormon, a conscientious and painstaking examination of all the evidences, he has been able to gather both from, for, and against it, the author of these pages has been forced to reject every one of the above claims. He is compelled to believe that no such people as are described in the book of Mormon ever lived upon this continent, that no such records were ever

Nemo [01:14:23] engraved upon golden plates or any other place in the early ages, that no such men as Mormon or Moroni or any other of the prophets or kings or wise men mention in the book ever existed in this country, that Jesus Christ never appeared upon this continent in person or had a people here before its discovery by Columbus, in short, that no such civilization, Christian or otherwise, is as is described in the Book of Mormon, ever had in existence upon either north or South America.

Julia [01:14:56] Thank you. So Mt Lamb has a rather ignorant view regardless of when this was published.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] So he was 87.

Julia [01:15:04] It was 87. Okay. Because I know that in the newspapers the golden Bible was a very big thing. It was is being spread around. And so Joseph was responding to the golden Bible problems in his lifetime, but this was published after his lifetime. But this, in this book he's saying that because there are no metal plates and there's no, there's no evidence of ancient civilizations here in the United States or otherwise or around there, then the Book of Mormon is not true. And this is just a very ignorant view because we'll see, we'll go through that. That was. Everyone thought that records were kept on ancient or ancient records are kept on plates by these people that were living here. And we know from evidence now that you have the. A lot of Native American tribes were all over the United States. So it's, so it's just a very ignorant perspective.

Nemo [01:15:48] Even if like you could look at it and you could have someone coming out as contemporary Joseph Symes saying no peoples ever wrote in a language that that consists of pictograms. Right. You could have someone come out and say that even if Egyptian hieroglyphics were fairly well known at the time. But that ignorant statement doesn't make the discovery of hieroglyphics proof that the Book of Abraham is correctly translated or a true ancient record of Abraham.

Julia [01:16:14] Right, Right.

Nemo [01:16:15] Because you have to then look at the details of what has been found. So for example, you look at the pergy, the PG tablets and you look to the details of gold plates that have actually been found and you're like, look, see, people didn't think they were around and now we found them. Yes, but what does our discovery of them now tell us about the way they operate? That, that physically it wouldn't be possible for you to write a book at the length of the Book of Mormon on plates like that. Right, Sorry, I don't want to steal

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:16:40] any thunder there, but no, and that's why I, I, like I said, if you, if anyone watching or listening to this, go look up Book of Mormon central episodes on the. The historicity of metal plates and just kind of look at the examples they give. And then do your research, hop on Google Search to see what the. The text actually is. And what you'll see is the text is not long records. And they, they give this one example of these. I think it's like a. A set of laws or rules, and it's like outside of an ancient courthouse kind of set up. I think there's four of them.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:17:11] And when you look at the picture, like, holy crap, these are a lot of writing on metal plates. I want to say it's 1500 words over four massive things. So again, you're talking 270,000 words. And that's why they kind of jump around from one example to the next. And they try to. I don't want to say they're distracting on purpose, but they don't settle in on the fact that none of these, not one example, is going to be remotely comparable to what the Book of Mormon plates need to be. And on top of that, as Julia will continue after I stop my rant, the idea of plates was well known at the time.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:17:42] And so all of these things are fitting together to where Joseph Smith would absolutely use a story, just as he did with the fascination over Egyptian artifacts and whatnot plays into how he deals with the Book of Abraham. This is something in the milieu, which is why Joseph Smith incorporates it.

John Dehlin [01:17:58] Let's. You've got slides on that, Julia?

Julia [01:18:00] Yeah, I have. Yeah. So we're going to go through some of. Some of the. The what was in Joseph Smith's milieu about the plates.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] Let's do it.

Julia [01:18:08] Yeah. Okay. So this is from an Insider's View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer, which was. Which is what we've been talking about. This is a great book. Everyone should go purchase it. But he says believers and skeptics alike report that they physically hefted the box and handled something through a cloth. The weight, size, dimensions, and rings running through the metal were described by Martin and Lucy Harris, William Smith, Emma Smith, Isaac Hale and others.

Ancient Plates and the Mound Builder Myth as Inspiration

Julia [01:18:32] According to Dan Vogel, the literary phrases of Joseph Smith's Day in 1823 described how the ancient mound builders and Jews were thought to have preserved their writings. They were said to have fashioned books of brass connected together by the rings at the back in stone boxes. These ideas may have been Joseph Smith's inspiration for making a plate like object to persuade belief.

Julia [01:18:55] And so that's what we're going to go through in these next few slides is what. What could have inspired Joseph Smith's making the. This. This object, if that is the route that you want to go because we've shown that the plates are. In my opinion, the plates are not actually a real physical thing.

John Dehlin [01:19:11] Okay.

Julia [01:19:12] Okay. So this is from. And Dan Vogel wrote a book called Indian Origins of the Book of Mormon. Mike, are you able to read this block of text?

John Dehlin [01:19:22] Julia doesn't like me.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:19:24] Joseph Smith was certainly not. Sorry. It says Joseph Smith was certainly not the first to claim the discovery of a stone box, metal plates, or an Indian book. According to various accounts, some of the North American mounds also contain metal plates. Plates constructed by the Indians were usually made of hammered copper or silver and were sometimes etched. Given the currency of such stories, Joseph Smith's own claim that he found a stone box, metal plates, and an Indian record in the hill near his father's farm certainly would have seemed credible to his money digging friends as well as to others of his contemporaries.

Julia [01:20:03] Thank you. So, yeah, so. So this is. This is on everybody's minds. I think this is one of the reasons why kind of like what you talked about, John, with Josiah Stoll, where he really thought that there was buried. Buried either records or metal plates or gold or whatever. Silver. And so that's. That's why it was so easy for him to believe and so many others to believe that Joseph Smith's story was true is because they all had heard about it.

John Dehlin [01:20:23] It'd be interesting to see. Maybe you've got this, like citations of the discussion about metal plates from.

Julia [01:20:30] Oh, do you want to read this one, John?

John Dehlin [01:20:33] Oh, I get to read.

Julia [01:20:34] Yeah, I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Okay. I'm tz. So rich. History of buried plates. Julie's a mind reader. All right, number bullet number one. In 1775, Indian trader James Adair described two brass plates and five copper plates found with the Tacabaches Indians of North America. That's number one. Number two, the Reverend Thaddeus Mason Harris stated in 1805 that, quote, plates of copper have been found in some of the mounds, but they appear to be parts of armor. Close quote.

John Dehlin [01:21:13] Quote number three. A rat or Seamus Turner reported that in 1809, a New York farmer plowed up an ancient record or tablet. He said it was made of copper and, quote, had engraved upon one side of it. Bullet number four. The Philadelphia portfolio reported in 1816 that, quote, thin plates of copper rolled up were discovered in one mound. And I'm assuming they're talking about the Indian mounds, mound builder kind of stuff. All right, bullet number five. In 1823, John Haywood described, quote, human bones of large size. Think Zelf. And quote Two or three plates of brass with characters inscribed, resembling letters found in one West Virginia mount.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] And then boom. Maybe this is the biggest one of all in 1823, Ethan Smith of Poultry, Vermont. And is that the same Ethan Smith of View of the Hebrews?

Julia [01:22:18] Yeah, Pulteney. Yeah, Pulteney.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] So this is the book that many people say either inspired the Book of Mormon or was inspired by the same thing that inspired the Book of Mormon or sets of things that inspired the Book of Mormon. Ethan Smith also was a student at Dartmouth. Who, who? Joseph's brother Hiram was also a student at Dartmouth. And John Smith, some uncle or whatever of Joseph Smith was a teacher at Dartmouth. Right. These are all.

Julia [01:22:47] And you have, you have a great episode on the Dartmouth stuff, so we should put that in the show notes too.

John Dehlin [01:22:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, 1823, Ethan Smith of Poultry, Vermont. Oh, I should mention he was Oliver Cowdery's pastor. Right?

Julia [01:23:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:00] Ethan Smith of Pult. Pulteney, Vermont, held that the Indians once had, quote, a book which they had for a long time preserved, but having lost the knowledge of reading it, they concluded it would be of no further use to them, and they buried it with an Indian chief. Now, that one's not mentioning metal plates. Why did you include that one, Julia? Besides the fact that Dan Vogel included it and if Dan Vogel does it.

Julia [01:23:27] Oh, well, yeah, if Dan Vogel. Yeah, I just included. I just was taking this directly from

John Dehlin [01:23:31] Dan Vogel, but I mean, but, but I'm. I'm sure there's a. Can we guess why he included that?

Julia [01:23:36] Well, yeah, because it's like basically Joseph Smith's story of the Book of Mormon. The. These hidden plates that were buried with. With an Indian chief.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] But it's not plates, this one. Right?

Nemo [01:23:44] It's a buried.

Julia [01:23:44] Well, no, it says a book.

John Dehlin [01:23:45] It's a book.

Julia [01:23:46] It's a book.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:23:46] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] So bearing records, right?

Julia [01:23:50] Yeah, yeah. But also looking at that list. Oh, what were you going to say? Because, because you might be.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:23:55] No, no, go ahead, go ahead. I was going to add one more to your list, but you could go first. Or do you want me to add it first?

Julia [01:24:00] Yeah, sure, Just. Just go ahead and add it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:24:02] Okay. So this one, I've heard this actually on Mormon stories. This is John Hamer. This is from a few years ago. And this is one. I, I need to reach out to him and get the actual citation. But he's talking about how the mound builder myth is so vital to the Book of Mormon and also how it's vital to this idea of records and so he talks about how in an 1823 discourse to the New York Literary and Philosophical Society of New York, former New York Governor DeWitt Clinton pointed out that the story of the mound builders would be forever lost unless a record engraved on stone or metal could be found in the mounds. That's pretty close.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] Wow. Yeah, okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:24:43] It's a former. Yeah, former governor is. It really is. Like, I've talked to people before and I mentioned the mound builder myth and they go, well, did Joseph Smith know about it? And you go, yeah, everyone did. It was a very big thing. And they go, well, do you have books on it? I'm like, well, I don't know if he had books on it, but we did an episode on this where all of these really important people of the founding of America were talking about this idea. And so to what we've been saying here, this is in the milieu of Joseph Smith. And then these remarks about how the mound builders would keep records either on stone or metal that would be buried with them is remarkably close to what Joseph Smith is going to then claim is the foundation of the Book of Mormon.

Nemo [01:25:20] Can I throw an analogy at you? And people in the comments can crucify me for butchering it, but for years, right, films like Jurassic park and whatever, you look at dinosaurs and you think of them as this sort of scaly, smooth things like that. And for years the prevailing theory about dinosaurs, because, you know, soft tissues don't fossilize very well, was that they were kind of these scaly, smooth, reptile looking creatures, right? And then it's come out that some people postulated that actually dinosaurs would have feathers, very possibly like birds, right?

Nemo [01:25:51] And so then things shift and change. So the reason I bring this up is because you've got this unexplained, these unexplained things that the Native Americans have built these mounds, etc, and you're coming at it with a Eurocentric point of view that, you know, these must have been white people to create such a great technology and civilization and such a sort of ordered society and whatever. So people have come up with their theory and it's not till later that we have better ways of working out who these people were and what their society and culture was, that we then come up with a different idea.

Nemo [01:26:23] So I bring that up to say, you know, it was a pervasive idea because it was people's attempt to explain something they didn't understand. So these people weren't crazy for believing the mound builder myth. It's not something crazy, it's Just was in the same way that people thought dinosaurs were smooth for a long time. Right.

Julia [01:26:41] Yeah, yeah. And if you throw the slide back up, John, I want to point something out that. A point that Mike had made earlier. Um, so these plates, a lot of these examples are a small. They're. They're either one. See, the first one is two brass plates and then five plates, five copper plates, and then one of them is just a what, a single roll, I think. And so these are two or three plates of brass. So again, these are very small examples. And I don't think we. I don't think. And I think, Mike, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any record has been found like the one of the Book of Mormon with 270,000 words or the equivalent thereof. That's as big as they say it is. I don't think any record has been found ever about that. Right. So, like, it's just think it's interesting.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:27:23] Yeah, absolutely not. Yeah.

Julia [01:27:25] Right. Yeah. So even the, even the examples in his milieu were not nearly as big as he later said the Book of Mormon was. So.

Nemo [01:27:33] And we understand where they came from because I was having a chat with. I forget with about the fact that there are deposits of copper that you can find in the States that are like, not like metals where you find them amongst stone and you have to, you know, like, you have to heat this up massively to get. To withdraw the ore.

Nemo [01:27:51] They're just lumps of copper that you could then work and smash and hit with stones and flatten out and. And so that's why the Native Americans had, you know, copper artifacts. They. They did trade copper and because they would find these naturally occurring like lumps essentially of just copper. It's quite wild if you, if you Google it. But, you know, so there's the grain of truth there that people have found in these burial mounds. Some Native American artifacts, copper artifacts, some metal work, but they didn't have true metallurgy and they weren't making these massive blocks of text. Right. So it's that grain of truth that gets then expounded upon and, and inflated, Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:28:32] Yep.

Nemo [01:28:32] And I've lost John entirely.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] No, you haven't.

Julia [01:28:37] So this next slide I have, it shows examples from the. The Apocrypha, actually, which Joseph Smith. So. So the Smith family Bible contained the apocrypha and the first book of Maccabee. We find this verse, it's from 8:22, chapter 8, verse 22. And this is a copy of the epistle which the Senate wrote back again in tables of brass and sent to Jerusalem, that there might have been. That there might have been them. A memorial of peace and confederacy. And then another reference was made of brass plates in. In chapter 14, verses 18 through 19. And so I just, again, just to point out that this was so much in Joseph's milieu.

Julia [01:29:12] It's just. It's also in the Bible, in the scriptures that he had access to. So not only is everyone talking about it, and it's in everyone's minds, and they're all looking for this kind of stuff. It's also in his scriptures that we know that Joseph Smith used the Bible in his construction of the Book of Mormon. So it's just another example to me of where he would get this idea.

John Dehlin [01:29:31] I mean, there's where brass plates probably come from, right, Nemo. What are you showing us? Nemo?

Nemo [01:29:37] I'm just holding up my copy of the Apocrypha with the appropriate verse. There you go.

Julia [01:29:41] That's so cool right there.

John Dehlin [01:29:44] Nice.

Nemo [01:29:45] Yeah, the Apocrypha also has the name Nephi in it, I do believe. Yeah, it's in the Apocrypha as well. And the Book of Tobit has a talking donkey. So, I mean, this is just full of great stuff. This is. This is what you want, guys. This is where the cool Bible stuff's at.

John Dehlin [01:30:02] All right?

Julia [01:30:03] And so here's another example. This is from 1811. In his book the Star in the east, published in 1811, Reverend Claudius Buchanan says that the Jews of Cochin in India, Indian, who Buchanan believed were remnants of the lost 10 tribes, kept a history of their journey on those parts, on those parts on plates of brass. So here's another. Just another evidence that Joseph Smith was aware that they had this idea that they were keeping their records on plates of metal.

John Dehlin [01:30:34] Yeah, it's all over the place. Just like. Just like builder myth, right? This idea of plates, buried plates, it's all over the place.

Julia [01:30:41] Right?

John Dehlin [01:30:42] That's so fascinating.

Julia [01:30:43] Yeah, yeah. And there's just a few more examples that we have. So, John, do you want to read this slide?

John Dehlin [01:30:51] I'm getting extra. Is the Nemo's turn. I'll do it. Thomas hartwell horn in 1814, in his book, quote, An Introduction of the Study of Bibliography. Close quote. Published in 1814, Thomas Hartwell Horn spoke of ancient plates, quote, history, indeed, records, tablets of lead and copper. The ancient books, quote, were covered with wax, and the writing was executed in the styles or pens made of gold. Ooh, gold, silver, brass. Ooh, brass, iron, Copper, ivory or bone, which at one end were pointed for the purpose of inscribing the letters and smooth at the other extremity for the purpose of erasing these tablets, when collected and fastened together, composed a book. Boom.

Nemo [01:31:40] That's mental, right?

John Dehlin [01:31:43] What smoking.

Julia [01:31:44] Are you talking about the pen? Yeah, that's kind of. That's kind of wilds me if that's accurate.

Nemo [01:31:49] The idea that you would use a very soft metal like gold in order to engrave anything is bizarre. Or certainly engrave on another metal that's. It's pretty wild.

Julia [01:31:58] Or to erase on metal. That's interesting to me.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:32:01] Yeah.

Nemo [01:32:02] Like you just. Yeah, it's really weird. That's. I mean, the books are covered with wax, so they say they etched into the wax. Is that the idea?

Julia [01:32:12] I actually am not sure what he means, but one thing that I thought was interesting is that I've heard when the. I've heard that the. There was a man who recreated this, the gold plates for the church, and then he used the. He used beeswax to seal the sealed portion. And I haven't to where I was looking and maybe I missed it. I haven't seen any of the. Any of the witnesses describe any kind of wax. Some say it's hard like wood, but I haven't seen any wax. So I thought that was really interesting. So that's one of the reasons why I thought that this quote specifically was interesting.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:32:40] Yeah.

Nemo [01:32:40] Not to. Not to, you know, sound all sophisticated, but I went to the Ashmolean Museum the other day, which is in Oxford, very old museum from the 1600s, I think it's been going. Anyway, they have a lovely exhibit there on cuneiform, which is a. One of the earliest systems of writing. And it's done on little clay tablets. And you take the pointy end of a reed and you press it in and you make all these little shapes and then they'll eat, you know, if the clay hardens, too bad. But you can reuse it and all that sort of stuff. But then when they wanted to make it last, they do it in stone.

Nemo [01:33:10] Right. So this method of writing is very ancient and this idea of taking a surface and engraving, that is the earliest form of writing we have. But to say it was done on plates of metal like this, particularly metal as precious as gold, in the volume needed, again, just doesn't seem to work.

Julia [01:33:31] Right.

Nemo [01:33:31] But Joseph Smith will have been aware of it and again, that's where all these people are getting these ideas from. For anyone who wants to say, oh, well, where would they have thought this up. Engraving things on surfaces is literally the oldest way we have of writing stuff.

John Dehlin [01:33:45] Yeah. Yeah. So silly.

Julia [01:33:47] Yeah. So this one. This is a kind of a random source that I just. I'm throwing in here because I think it's interesting and maybe people have more thoughts in the comments, but. Nemo, do you want to read this one?

Nemo [01:33:59] Sure. In a letter written by Jesse Smith, Joseph Smith's uncle, to Hiram Smith on June 17, 1829, he wrote that Joseph Smith's plates were made of lead. I write this at the request of my father, not for your sake. You have not written to me. The story is that the gold book proved to be never wrote, is then crossed out, proved to be led, that the authority have taken it. And Joe is under bonds to appear before his betters. So let it be.

Julia [01:34:30] So I added this one because I. Or I found it because of Dan Vogel. Yeah, I thought it was super interesting. So Jesse, I don't think, was very fond of Joseph Smith's church at all. From everything that I could see from him was very antagonistic, but I thought it was really interesting. You know, first of all, the never wrote was crossed out, and then he is describing it as being lead. That. That was also really interesting. I don't know what to make of it. I just put it in here because it's interesting.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] The lead. The. The gold book proved to be lead, and that's Joseph Smith's uncle writing to Jesse.

Julia [01:35:02] Jesse is his uncle, and he's writing to. To hire him.

John Dehlin [01:35:05] Okay. Ready to hire him.

Julia [01:35:06] Yeah. So I just thought that was interesting.

John Dehlin [01:35:08] Or 1830, right?

Julia [01:35:10] Yeah. So before any of the witnesses, I guess pretty early.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] How about why. Why does the church mention that witness?

Julia [01:35:17] Although to their credit, I did find it on Joseph Smith papers.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] So nice.

Julia [01:35:21] It's there.

John Dehlin [01:35:22] Nice. Thank you, Internet. Okay, let's keep going.

Final Thoughts and Closing Discussions)

Julia [01:35:25] Okay. So then this is. I think I just pulled this straight off of your website, Mike, from LDS discussions. I don't know if you have. Maybe I'll just read some of it. So this is from an Ensign article. The story is told of Joseph Smith obtaining the plates. So this is a quote from that. From that, as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up behind and gave him a heavy blow with the gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him to the ground and then ran at. Ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further, he was attacked again in precisely the same way.

Julia [01:35:55] He soon brought this one down also and ran on again. So he's literally running with these heavy plates. But before he got home, he was accosted the third time with a severe stroke with a gun. Joseph struck this third and final attacker with such force that he dislocated his own thumb. He continued running, being closely pursued, until he came near the father's. Near his father's house, at which time his assailants, for fear of being detected, broke off the chase.

Julia [01:36:21] So Dan Vova has written extensively on the gold plates and believes that Joseph Smith was finishing the plates on this day and likely dislocated his thumb trying to finish the D shaped rings that bound the sheets. That would be the final part of producing a set of metal plates, of metal sheets that are bound with rings and would certainly be very difficult on the thumb as you're attempting to bend the rings into shape. In this scenario, Joseph Smith needs a cover story for his dislocated thumb that occurred while he was finishing his prop set of plates. So he rushes home with the story of being attacked three times by treasure seekers to account for both the injury of his thumb and the plates finally making their way back.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] I like Maven. How's it? Maven shared a quote. She wrote, I'm not a fighter, but dislocating a thumb by striking someone seems difficult.

Julia [01:37:06] I guess if you're, like, wrapping it like this. I guess it could be, yeah.

Nemo [01:37:09] If you don't know what you're doing,

Julia [01:37:10] if you don't know how to fight,

Nemo [01:37:11] one sure way to dislocate your thumb.

John Dehlin [01:37:13] He could have been holding the plates and somehow lost his balance while holding the plates.

Julia [01:37:19] And.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.