Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] What happens when a Mexican Mormon with scrupulosity loses his Mormon faith before his mission as a teenager, discovers Mormon stories in the CES letter, decides he still wants to serve a mission, and ends up post mission, married in the temple as a nuanced believer. Teaching institute. And he comes on Mormon Stories. If that's not a teaser, I don't know what else is going to grab you. Hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 23, 2026, and today we flew all the way from Mexico, Gustavo Hernandez. Gustavo, thanks for coming to Mormon Stories.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:00:43] Thank you for the invitation, John. I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] My pleasure. And I'm just like. In some ways, Gustavo's Mormon story is more Mormon than most of the people that we have on Mormon Stories. He's only, what, 24 years old?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:01:00] Yes, 24.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] And he's lived several, let's say three or four decades worth of intellectual Mormon life, much more than most Mormons I know for sure. So hold onto your hat, sombrero. It's gonna be an amazing Mormon Stories episode. And Gustavo arrived this morning or this afternoon from Mexico to do this interview. And then he's gonna fly home tomorrow, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:01:29] So I can get back to work on Monday.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] So thanks for coming all that way.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:01:33] No, I really appreciate it. I really appreciate it, John. I. Well, I don't want to spoil it.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] No, go ahead.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:01:41] But I've known you for. Well, I've known Mormon stories for almost 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] So. Like when you were 14 in Mexico, you're saying you learned about Mormon Stories?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:01:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] And it didn't destroy your membership or faith?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:01:57] Maybe it did a little.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] It challenged, it matured it.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:02:03] And I hated you, John. I know, but that changed, so we'll talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] I'm excited to get into that. I love interviewing people who used to hate me but don't hate me anymore. So, anyway, before we jump in to an amazing story, anything you wanted to start with by way of disclaimer or introduction?

Gustavo's Background and Disclaimers

Gustavo Hernandez [00:02:26] Yes. I mean, let's say disclaimer. I'm an active, believing member of the

John Dehlin [00:02:34] church, and let me just make sure. You're active.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:02:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] You're currently teaching institute, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:02:39] Currently teaching institute. In fact, I had to cancel today's lesson so I could come here. So, Yeah, I think. I don't like to use labels that I've heard people use in Utah, like. Like progmo or something like that. I just. I don't know. I consider myself a regular Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:03:01] I know that my beliefs are maybe more new and so progressive, but I don't know, I don't really see myself that way. I just try to do what's right.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] I love it. Well, and I'll just say, aside from your amazing story and how articulate and thoughtful and intelligent you are, as part of a long standing Mormon Stories tradition, I like to bring on Mormons across the belief spectrum. You know, recently, I'm sure you know, the Mormon Church has decided to sue Mormon Stories podcast. And during the mediation, they wanted me to rename Mormon Stories to Ex Mormon Stories with Dr. John Dehlin. And I just don't feel like that fits. And this interview is just one of many, many, many examples of me wanting to hear from believing, faithful, active Mormons. And by the way, I read in your outline we're not going to be debating truth claims today, but we will talk about how you've reconstructed your faith. Yeah, because I think that's an important part.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:04:09] Yes. Because a friend from my mission dropped me off here and we were talking on the drive here that as missionaries, we were too focused on being right. And that's something I'm not very interested in anymore. We'll get into it.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Me too. Me too.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:04:31] That's the main reason why I don't really like debates, because I don't know. We'll get into it.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] I love it. Julia wants to know already if you're worried about getting released or fired from your institute teaching assignment for coming on Mormon Stories.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:04:48] Well, maybe a month ago, before the lawsuit happened, I wouldn't be worried because no one knows you in Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] I love it.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:04:58] But now that you're famous, many independent, lds, Spanish speaking Facebook groups and pages have talked about the lawsuit. So a lot more people are aware of you.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Even in Mexico.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:05:14] Yes, in Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Oh, wow.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:05:16] So the Streisand effect does work. So I don't know. I don't think so, because I don't think anyone will listen to this story.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Except, I mean, you'll be bearing your testimony by the end, I'm sure. So how can that be bad? Right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:05:31] Yeah. So in case you're watching, Bishop. Hi.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] Hola, Obispo. That's awesome. Did you think about not doing the interview? Once the church sued me, did you consider pulling out?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:05:45] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Okay, awesome. All right, Gustavo, well, where does your Mexican Mormon story, your Mexican Mormon story, where does it begin? Were your parents converts? Are your parents members? Maybe we'll start with your parents or your abuelitos.

Growing Up in a Mexican Mormon Family

Gustavo Hernandez [00:06:01] Yeah, sure. So the story does start with my Abuelitos on my mom's side, they got baptized like three years before my mom was born. And on my dad's side, my dad got baptized when he was 15. He was one of those converts who. Well, those teenage baptisms that get baptized and then never go to church again. He was one of those. But I don't really know his story very well. I just know that eventually he became active again, went on a mission, and he's been very active and believing ever since. My mom was born a member and my grandparents were initially intrigued by Mormonism because my grandma, well, everyone's Catholic in Mexico and she was very interested in the resurrection. And she said that one of her priests told her that no one could be resurrected except Jesus. So when she listened to the missionaries and they talked about the resurrection, she said, oh, this is what I've been looking for. So they both have been very active. And I was born.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] They were married in the temple.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Mexico City Temple.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:33] Yes, Mexico City Temple.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] Do you know around what year they were married approximately?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:40] My parents? Yeah, 2000.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:44] And I was born 2001.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] So you're the first.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:49] First of two kids, small family.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Yeah. Okay, so they're temple. Mary, did you say your dad served a mission?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:57] Yes, both.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] Both serve missions?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:07:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] In Mexico?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:08:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:08:02] As my dad served in northern Mexico, it covered a lot of states and I don't know my geography too well to say what those states are, but my mom served in Chihuahua.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Okay. That's kind of northern. Where the colonies. Las Colonias are, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:08:22] Yes, yes. Colonia, Juarez, Delicias. That's where she served. Permission.

John Dehlin [00:08:27] If anybody is a listener or viewer who grew up in the colonies of northern Mexico, I want to interview you on Mormon stories.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:08:37] It's a very interesting place. I think you should interview someone from there.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] For those who don't know when the church leaders in the late 1800s were being persecuted for their polygamy, the church settled, sent settlers to northern Mexico and southern Canada and then these major colonies, Mormon polygamous colonies grew with multi generational memberships and church sponsored schools, et cetera. So that's a part of Mexican history that I think a lot of Mormons don't even necessarily know about. But Mitt Romney, his dad apparently grew up in the. In the colonies in northern Mexico as an example.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:09:26] Yeah, it's a very interesting story. My mom's mission president was also born in the colonies and there's a lot of interesting stories there. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Okay. And we're talking Mexico City kind of where you were born and raised?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:09:43] Yes, I was born and raised in Mexico City. So that's the closest thing to Utah you have in Mexico, and not in a population member ratio, but it is where we have the first temple, we have the church office building. We used to have a boarding school called El Benemedo. It's now the Mexico City mtc. So there's a lot of pioneer heritage in those areas and, and sort of 70s celebrities and things like that. So I was raised in that culture just for a few years. I moved when I was five, but I spent the first five, six years of my life there.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] You moved?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:10:33] Where to? Well, it's called Toluca. It's just an hour drive from Mexico City.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Okay, so how many total members do you think the church claims in Mexico? Do you have a guess? Is it over a million?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:10:55] I think it's a little over a million. I remember checking the website once, like three years ago.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] So, I mean, among the second or third most members for a country in the world is that, I mean, probably Brazil and Mexico or competing maybe, or Chile for the most members.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:11:15] Yeah, Yeah. I think the competition's between Brazil and Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Yeah. So the second or third most Mormon country.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:11:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] And do you have a sense for the activity rates in Mexico? I'm just curious. You may not even have a sense for that?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:11:33] Well, I think it depends because in my first ward in Toluca, the activity rates were. I think we had like 600 people on file and a 200 attendants.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Third?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:11:56] Yes, about a third. So terrible for Latin America and my current ward? Well, I don't know, but I think it's about three, 400 people on record and 100 attending. Okay, so 20, maybe a third or a fourth, maybe approximately.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] That's probably similar around the world, actually. So what was your Mormon childhood like in Mexico?

An Orthodox Mormon Childhood in Mexico

Gustavo Hernandez [00:12:25] Well, it was very. It was orthodox for sure because I grew up like wearing my Sunday clothes all day. We didn't do anything on the Sabbath and we would. Well, I didn't really notice this until a few years ago, but my family had very like Kimball McConkey believes about doctrine or practices. So I was, I was raised in that environment, but at the same time, I wasn't introduced to many what you would consider regular Mormon ideas you get when you're a kid. For example, I. I don't remember being raised, being taught that the prophet and the apostles are like rock stars because even in primary when we sang Follow the Prophet, I thought it meant like, it was just a cautionary tale for Bible stories. And I was sort of singing like, oh, Israelites, you should have paid attention to Moses. But I wasn't thinking, oh, my gosh, Gordon B. Hinckley.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] So what are the words that. I don't think that primary song was translated when I was serving my mission in Guatemala. What are the words in Spanish to the chorus of that song?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:13:57] It's the same Follow the prophet in

John Dehlin [00:13:59] English or in Spanish?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:14:01] In Spanish it's Sig el profete siguel propheta.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] Fun.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:14:07] Yeah. And I think it's nine verses and it is the last one that mentions modern day prophets. I never got to the last verse. I just sang like the first two.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:14:20] Who sings an online Adam, Enoch. And that's it.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] Got it.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:14:23] Okay. So I think it was very Jesus centered because I think in Mexico people are saying nowadays that the church is trying to be more Christ focused. I think in Mexico it's always been that way because Mexico is a very Christian country. So the focus is always God and Jesus. God and Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] That's great. That sounds really healthy.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:14:53] Yeah. Because, well, as a kid, God is just as real as your parents and the world. So of course God is real. Why wouldn't he? Of course Jesus is real. And for me, the church came as just default because God is real. So this is a church. Why not? So there was a lot of focus on praying, on having this close relationship with the Savior. I don't want to say obsessed, but I was very intrigued as a child to have that sort of connection with God. I remember once that it's a bit strange now that I think about it, but one of my primary teachers told us, you can pray today and I'll promise that you'll see Jesus. I don't know why she said that he said that, but I took his word for it and I prayed and I didn't see anything, but I remember that I was just so, so obsessed with having that sort of confirmation that God is there, that Jesus is there. And Joseph Smith was part of the conversation too, but he was a bit of a secondary character. And yeah, I mean, I didn't know Gordon B. Hinckley was the president of the church. So that was my Mormon childhood. I eventually was taught what everyone knows about maybe that the prophet is the mouthpiece of God, that he sees God in Jesus. But that came later on. But that was my first six years of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Did your family study the scriptures like family scripture study when you were growing up as a kid?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:17:06] Yes, yes. It wasn't very frequent, but yeah, we Would take time, maybe once or twice a week.

John Dehlin [00:17:14] How about like family home evening kind of thing?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:17:16] Yes, we had family home evening. I just don't remember having scripture study. Maybe because we couldn't read. Yeah, but yeah, we had family home evening.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] What were your parents professions or was your mom a stay at home mom or.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:17:34] My mom studied graphic design. She was a stay at home mom. But sometimes she would do work for that. My dad, well, my dad didn't have a career when we were born. He got his degree years later, but he worked for a bank, for a phone company. He's been. He worked for the church for a while. He was in human resources. Now he works for a. He's sort of the manager for customer service in a Mexico business.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] Nice. Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:18:14] Yeah, that's what they do.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] To what extent did you grow up sort of thinking, identifying with the Lamanites in the Book of Mormon, that you and your family and other members of the church in Mexico or even Latin Americans were literal descendants of the. Of Lehi and Nephi or layman or whatever in the Book of Mormon, or was that not how you grew up?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:18:43] That was not part of what I was taught growing up. I'm pretty sure. Maybe it wasn't. I just wasn't paying attention. But yeah, when we read the Book of Mormon. Well, when I was a kid, I just knew about Jesus and the Jesus story. We had a few vhs. One of them was Together Forever and the Lamb of God and Finding Faith in Christ. So I just used to watch those on repeat. Those were the stories I knew. I didn't know the stories of Nephi, of King Lamoni, of Captain Moroni. Like I knew about the Book of Mormon, of course, and I knew about Nephi, the Tree of Life, but that, that, that was about it. And Jesus coming to the Americas. But I, because I wasn't really acquainted with the Book of Mormon, I didn't really care about the heritage because I took God's existence for granted. So I took that the church was true for granted. So if the Book of Mormon says that the Lamanites are the descendants of the Native Americans, then sure, why not? And I didn't think a lot about that. But I do remember that in Mexico to this day, being a Lamanite is something you're proud of.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] So

Gustavo Hernandez [00:20:35] I don't hear people saying I'm a Lamanite, but I do hear people saying the Book of Mormon is about our descendants and about the promise.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] Our ancestors.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:20:45] Yes, our ancestors.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Yeah, yeah. No, I don't mean to correct You. I just want to make sure I understand.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:20:50] Yes. And this story is about promises made to us that apply to us directly. It was more like that.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] So not like a really tightly held personal identity, but a general understanding that there was a connection there.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:21:11] Yeah, like I said, probably it was a very important part of people's identity. Maybe I was just. I wasn't paying attention.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Yeah, no, it's fine. I mean, I remember in Guatemala some of my companions, Soy la Manita, you know, or whatever, like, they were proud of it. Yeah, but that's interesting. That's cool. Okay, so. So let's just say before your teen years, before age 13, anything interesting or out of the ordinary about your Mormon story? Was your dad a bishop or a leader in the church? Was your mom, you know, did you have any family disruptions or really good things happen, you know, that. That are worth mentioning about your Mormon story before we kind of get into your teen years?

Early Mental Health Struggles and Scrupulosity

Gustavo Hernandez [00:22:01] Well, I just a couple of things. One sort of key theme and the whole story is mental health struggles. And ever since I was a kid, I didn't know it at the time, but I was. Had like this like extreme anxiety. It was hard for me to make friends. It was hard for me to speak in front of a crowd. So I never bore my testimony and my friends did. And they were very proud of sharing their testimony of Jesus, of the Book of Mormon, the Bible. And they would say, I know the church is true. I know Jesus is the Christ. And they were like seven. But they were very proud of it. And I just couldn't. I just couldn't get up. I didn't want to. I was terrified. And when we had the primary programs, I refused to participate. I mean, I did, but I didn't want to. It was very hard for me to be in front of a crowd. And yeah, I think that I never really had. I felt that I didn't have the testimony my friends had. I didn't have that strength. I was very certain about God and the church. I just wasn't very vocal about it. And yeah, so my anxiety starts from that age and will play a bigger role later on. And yes, I will say this, but I don't know to what extent because the people it involves are alive still. So I want to respect their wishes. But I'm 99, 0.99% sure that there are people I know who have received the second anointing. And I know this is a taboo subject and maybe faithful latterly saints watching this will not like me mentioning it in the first place, so maybe I'll keep it at that. But. But when I was a kid, I think I had contact with these people. So the belief, the worldview that the church, well, not the church, but that this relationship with God is the main purpose of life was very ingrained in me. And that will play a role later on. But I think those two things are important to mention.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] So do you think you as a kid had a sense for the fact that the second anointing existed and that these people had received it, or you're just saying now you know that they were that caliber of Mormon?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:25:19] Now I know.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] Okay, okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:25:20] Because there were things I knew about these people when I was a kid and I thought, oh, that's very interesting. So mysterious. But when I first learned about the second anointing, I just put the pieces together.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Yeah. And for those who don't know what we're talking about, there's a playlist on Mormon stories about the second anointing. And we've done like eight or nine episodes about it. So you can learn all about it there. Check out the Tom Phillips episode. It's definitely the place to start. But that's cool, that's interesting. All right, so I guess anything you want to say about your baptism that was memorable or important?

Church Reputation and Social Life in Mexico

Gustavo Hernandez [00:26:07] Well, I remember that I took it very seriously and that I was very, very proud of it. I wanted to follow Jesus and I was ready to have this insane experience and it was very special. Many friends came over from school and from church. But yeah, I think it was a very good experience. But I don't think there's a lot to say about that, just enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] Were your friends and kind of social group mostly Mormons, or did you have friends and family relationships with a wide variety of different types of people or faiths or whatever? Like, I've been to England or Switzerland and a lot of times the Mormons actually are very, very close. It's a very close, tight knit community where you'd be surprised at how few Mormons per capita there are in some of these countries. And yet that is people's social network. So what was it like for you and your family in Mexico?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:27:23] Yes, I. I think most of my friends were not members of the church.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:27:32] Because they were friends from school and in school there were. I was the only Mormon kid, I mean, besides my sister. But yeah, you. You're lucky if there's another Mormon in school with you. So most of my friends were not members of a church. I will say that even though I had more Non member friends. My Mormon friends are the friends that I still talk to to this day because we change schools, people move. But like you said, the church, when it's not the majority, it's a very close community. So you always stay in touch.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] What's your perception of the reputation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Mexico? Is it just like lots of mainstream Christian churches? Is it viewed as a cult? Is it viewed as a high demand religion? Is it loved? Is it hated? You know, what's the average perception in Mexico of Mormons?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:28:34] I think that 50% of people don't

John Dehlin [00:28:38] know what the church is, know nothing about it.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:28:41] Yeah, like Mormons, maybe. I've heard that name, but what is that? Or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I don't know what that is. And the other 50% is very antagonistic towards the church. And they do use the term cult.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] What's the Spanish word for cult? Okay. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:29:05] And they focus on the church being occult in Christian terms. Sort of like apology at church that the church is evil because the Book of Mormon is another gospel of Jesus Christ. So they tend to focus more on that. They don't tend to focus on other criticisms about maybe history and practices. They're just interested in theology. But I would say 50, 50. And maybe like, I don't know, 30% have a good opinion of the church. They say, oh, they're good people. I know them, they're kind.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] This is going to be a totally random question, but when I was in Guatemala, there was a really popular song called Jesus Verbo. No, substantivo. And it talks about Mormons believing that coffee is a sin. Is that a song that you would have heard?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:30:07] No, no, I've never heard of it.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] Okay. It was such a popular song, basically saying Jesus is a verb, not a noun. And I think it was popular all throughout Latin America, not just Guatemala, but it had this one line about Mormons believing that drinking coffee is a sin. And so that's what everyone in the whole country knew about Mormons. You know what I mean? Yeah, but. But I figured there are songs that transcend generations, so I just wondered if that was a song that affected you.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:30:41] No, I've never heard it. I'll look it up.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Yeah, yeah. Okay. I want to say it's Jose Feliciano, but it could be someone else. Do you know who that is? Have you ever heard of. Okay, okay, I'm old. I'm old. Even for Latin America, I'm old. Okay. All right, so should we talk about adolescence. Because that's where your story gets a little bumpy.

Difficult Teachings and Teenage Faith Struggles

Gustavo Hernandez [00:31:03] Yeah, it gets a little bumpy because, I mean, where do I start? I think it started right away into my teenage years because. And this is where certain teachings were taught for the first time, because the word I was in was also very, very Fielding Smith Kimballish.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Okay, so you were about to mention Joseph Fielding Smith. And that's interesting, because I was going to mention this. I didn't grow up with a copy of. Even though Mormon doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon doctrine was like the. The slant on Mormon doctrine in theology. That kind of. I grew up with. There was not a Mormon doctrine in my home, for whatever reason. I don't know why. My parents just never got it. But when I went to serve my mission, there were just certain books that were allowed. And it was, you know, Jesus the Christ and the Articles of Faith by Talmage, I believe, and marvelous work and a wonder. But when I went to Guatemala, they sold Doctrinas de Salvacion, Doctrines of Salvation, volumes 1 to and 3 by Joseph Fielding Smith. So that's when I first read Joseph Fielding Smith, who was the father in law of Bruce R. McConkie, and kind of where Bruce R. McConkie maybe got a lot of his teachings that he puts into Mormon doctrine. So did you just say Joseph Fielding Smith was an influence on you and your Mormon upbringing?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:32:38] Yes. I mean, I wasn't aware that it was him. But looking back, those teachings do come from him, from McConkey Kimball. Because it was a lot of. The minute I turned 12, it was always just law of chastity. Law of chastity. And, you know, when you're a kid, especially in Mexico, porn is kind of inevitable because you have these magazine stands everywhere. Well, you used to back in the day, so I didn't know what that was. And when I started to, you know, be ordained a deacon, I realized that. That the thing they were talking about and the thing I knew were the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] And so you stumbled on the magazines or whatever early on.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:33:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] You couldn't avoid them, I'm guessing.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:33:43] Yes. Yes. It's the sort of thing that you just walk by and I'm just to say, look down. Look down. And I would just do this.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] So they're everywhere. And then when mom says, look down, you're more curious, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:33:53] Yes. And we on tv, we also have telenovelas. And those telenovelas also have sex scenes. And it's everywhere. Well, it was everywhere. It's not so common now.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] So the telenovelas weren't. People weren't naked, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:34:12] Yeah. No, but they would sort of push the limits. But. But, yeah, I mean, it was important, but it was sexual content.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] And for those who don't know, telenovelas are like daytime soap operas, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:34:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:34:27] And when I learned about those things, I wasn't taught that it was a sin next to murder, but I was taught that it was very serious. And I also grew up watching this video that I bet most people know, Godly Sorrow.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Is that a Mormon video?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:34:51] Yeah, it's a 90s Mormon video. In fact, Harvey Dent from the Dark Knight is in it.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to remember. Aaron. Aaron.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:35:03] Yeah. I forget his last name.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Like Earhart or something. Aaron Urquhart. Yeah. Yeah. He had a dimple on his chin, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:35:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] And. Yeah, and it's. What's it about?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:35:13] Yeah. So this video is about a couple that's going to get married. And when you get married in a temple, you have to go through an interview with your bishop just for worthiness, to see if you're worthy of getting married in the temple. And there's this girl that's going to get married to Harvey Dent, and the bishop asks her if there's anything she should confess before going to the temple. And there's this vague situation that was most likely law chastity or having sex before marriage. And the bishop says, what you told me is very serious. You can't get married right now. And she's heartbroken. And there's this montage of her telling her parents, and it's very tragic and dramatic. And she also tells her fiance, and he's very disappointed, and she's shown crying alone, and it's very, very tragic. So it's a bit ironic because the phrase godly sorrow, I was taught that it meant feeling sad that you sinned but not feeling shame. Mm. But it didn't look that way on the video. So, yeah, she.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] So shame is that you're bad.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:36:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Sorrow is that you did something bad. Shame is that you are bad. Is that. Did I get that right or.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:36:45] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:36:46] Okay. Yeah, that's. That was. In seminary. We were thought that if we thought we were bad, we wouldn't be able to get better.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] So you were taught not to think you were bad in seminary? Yes, but the video.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:37:02] But the video taught otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] Sounds like you had a pretty healthy upbringing from the Mexican perspective. Right, The Mexican Mormon perspective. Like the culture, the church culture in Mexico. What I'm already hearing is they Worship leaders less, worship Mormon leaders less. They emphasize Jesus more. And it sounds like they're less shame based. I mean, that all sounds really good.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:37:26] I mean, it changed, but that was what happened during the first years.

John Dehlin [00:37:31] Okay, got it. Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:37:33] So I remember watching that video and making the connection like, oh my gosh, I need to confess. I need to talk to my bishop. But I thought it was so hard for this girl. It's going to be even harder for me because, you know, Deacon priesthood holder. When I was interviewed to be a deacon, I was asked if I needed to confess anything and I said no, I lied. And when I went to the temple to do baptisms for the dead, I don't know why, instead of giving us that sort of temple recommend that teenagers have that they can use for a year, we had an interview every time we went to the temple. So every couple of months I was asked, do you have anything to confess? And I said no. And I would always feel so, so bad that I was lying. And I was really distressed about that. And actually it was during this time that I visited my, my aunt and my uncle here in Layton. And here I, I saw for the first time church culture in Utah. And, and it was interesting. It was interesting to see what the Utah culture was compared to, to Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] And how's it different?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:39:06] It was different. I think that people in Latin America tend to be very warm. And I don't want to say that people in the United States are cold, but it's just. I don't know. It's different.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] No, I mean, I had a great ward experience growing up, so I'm not saying that there aren't places like that in the United States, but there is a fellowship and a community and a warmth in many of the Latin American branches. Awards I attended that was really special. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:39:52] Yes, yes. Because I. It was very obvious that I wasn't American. So people I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] You're saying you were treated differently maybe because of where. Being from a different country?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:40:08] Yes, yes. Because people thought I didn't know English and they would be like, well, he's the kid who speaks Spanish, so I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] Oh, okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:40:20] Hola. And yeah, it was very hard for me to have friends. I really. I was a cop scout. I was a Wee Belos for a few months and then I was a boy scout. And I hated it because I, I never really liked sports or anything like that. And they were very, oh, let's play football. Let's, let's Swim a mile. And. And I just couldn't do that. Ph. And I don't know. I didn't like it.

Pornography, Shame, and Confessing to a Bishop

John Dehlin [00:40:57] How long were you here?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:40:58] I was here just to spend the summer.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Okay. Summer.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:41:01] And. Yeah. And I don't want to go on a tangent, but my uncle, he was a missionary that interviewed my grandparents for baptism. And my aunt at the time was a kid. There's a 15, 20 year gap. So eventually they met each other because they didn't know each other until 2002 and they got married. So that's. That's an interesting story. My. My uncle was there from. From the very beginning. Oh, cool.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] That's two years. You were two years old, maybe around there and.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:41:45] Yes. When that happened.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Yeah. Wow.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:41:47] And my uncle, he. I remember that one time he was teaching about the plan of salvation. And I remember that was the very first time I really thought about it. And there's a creation, there's a fall, there's life on earth, there's Jesus and the spirit world, resurrection and three degrees of glory. And I remember feeling sort of panic and feeling very sad that I was hiding things that I hadn't confessed. And I thought that it was because I was a coward. So I remember that he said, as soon as I get home, I'll talk to my bishop. And I was starting to think, you know what? Maybe it's not that bad. Maybe it'll be all right. I was trying to cheer myself up. I was 12 at this time.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] You're talking about the pornography? Mostly.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:42:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Okay. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:42:49] Yes. That I wanted to confess to my bishop that that had happened. And my plan originally was to continue lying until I was 17. And when I had my interview to go on a mission, I would say, oh, by the way, five years ago, something happened. And I thought they would say, oh, yeah, it was five years ago. Don't worry about it.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] You really thought this through.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:43:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] That would have been a lot of years to be feeling shameful or unworthy and to be hiding something that would not have been probably good for you. I don't know.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:43:28] Yeah. Yeah. And like I said, that was my plan. And after that family home meeting, I said, okay, I. I'll do it when I get home. I changed my mind.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] You'll confess?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:43:40] Yes, I'll go ahead and confess

John Dehlin [00:43:44] to your oboe.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:43:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:43:46] And I said, well, I first need to confess to my parents. And I was very afraid of doing that. So I come back home to Mexico City, and three days go by, and I'm just thinking, I need to tell Them, I need to tell them. How do I tell them? And eventually before going to bed, I said, mom, Dad, I have, I have to tell you something. And I remember sitting on the edge of the bed and I just, I just starting, I just started crying. I couldn't get the words out and they didn't know what was going on, but I was just crying and crying and I was trying to say it and I told him, I've been pornography for a while. And I was, I don't know, maybe what I was expecting, but I was thinking that maybe my parents would cheer me up, would maybe give me a hug. But they started crying, but not crying like, I'm sad you went through this alone. But they were more crying like, maybe I failed as a parent.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] Oh.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:45:10] And what that made me feel was my son's a failure and that means I failed. So that made me feel like a failure. And it wasn't. It was a very awful experience for me.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] Yeah. Because I mean, you might feel worse carrying the burden that you made your parents feel like failures than actually for the mistakes you made.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:45:41] Yes, yeah. Yes. And, and spoiler alert. But nowadays I don't think it's that big of a deal.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Pornography.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:45:53] Yeah. Having a kid, a 12 year old kid telling his parents that,

John Dehlin [00:46:00] well, it's just so common, especially with smartphones, I just don't think it can be avoided.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:46:08] Yeah. So looking back, yeah, it was a lot of drama, maybe to the extent of maybe even being a little funny. But it was awful for me at that time. It was just, just awful to say it and to get that kind of reaction. And the next day I talked to my bishop and it didn't get any better because I remember it was a war activity, so everyone was just like having fun. I think people brought tamales and people were dancing. It was a fun day. And my parents whispered to the bishop that I needed to talk to him. So we went to his office. And I remember that I had a plan to get a lesser sentence in my mind. I would tell him that. Because I would tell him that I had beat pornography many years ago. It wasn't something that I was doing at the time. It was many years ago. I thought that if I said that, he would say, oh, that's fine. That was my original mission plan. So I just translated that situation to when I was 12 and I did that. I told him that. And I felt guilty for not being specific, that it was something that I was currently doing, not something that happened many years ago. But I thought, okay, I'M confessing. That's what matters. And the bishop, he didn't make it any easier because he just looked at me with. With so much disappointment. And he said many things. And one thing that I remember that resonated with me was something along the lines of, you fooled us all. Why do you have to say that? And he said, when people look at you, they don't assume that you have that kind of a struggle. So you were really good hiding it. But again, it was a criminal, and it was just awful. And during the whole meeting, I was just thinking, okay, what's the sentence? How long am I gonna go without passing the sacrament? Just tell me already. It's been very hard. And finally he said. I thought, what, like two, three weeks? And he said, it's going to be for three months.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] Whoa. And there probably weren't like 20 deacons in your ward, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:49:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] How many deacons were there?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:49:13] Like seven?

John Dehlin [00:49:14] Yeah. So, like, your absence would be noticed.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:49:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] And people would ask, why aren't you passing the sacrament?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:49:21] Yes. It would be noticed.

John Dehlin [00:49:23] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:49:24] And when I heard three months, I just felt that my life would be ruined. And he said, we're going to meet weekly. I want you to keep a journal of the things that we talk about. And I need you to read a few chapters from this little book called the Miracle of Forgiveness.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Oh, my goodness.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:49:48] And that's when I was introduced to some ideas.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] And, you know, that book is since out of print, even though for decades and decades, written by an eventual prophet, you know, given to everyone who ever had to repent with a bishop almost. It's been out of print because it's got some really harsh teachings. Do you want to share what some of the harsher teachings were that you remember?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:50:21] Yes. So he only asked me to read a couple of chapters in the book. So some of the teachings that it's most known for, I didn't read those when I was 13, but some of the teachings are that if you masturbate, you become a homosexual.

John Dehlin [00:50:42] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:50:43] You'll be gay.

John Dehlin [00:50:43] It'll turn you gay.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:50:46] And homosexualists. It's horrible. It's worse than horrible.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] I think it compares homosexuality to bestiality, or at least the older version of it does.

Gustavo Hernandez [00:50:55] Yes, I remember that. So it's this. The teachings that I remember reading when I was 12, 13, was this idea that you sin when you do something wrong and you sin when you don't do something right. I don't remember the terms he used sins of omission or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] Sins of Omission and sins of commission. So commission are sins you do. Sins of omission are sins for not doing things you should be doing, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:51:30] Yes, yes, something like that. So I remember that people insisted when I said that I was too harsh or that I couldn't find any hope in that. They would insist. No, no, no. It. Like, that's the point. He wants to show how. How impossible it is for you to be saved on your own. And then he introduces Jesus to show that. That he's the only one who can save. And honestly, I haven't read the Miracle of Forgiveness through and Through. I don't think I want to, really. But if that was his intention, I don't think that people get that from that book. So I just remember that those three months were very hard because I remember one time I went to get a haircut before meeting with the bishop, and it got late, so my mom just drove me there. I needed to go with my suit and my shirt and tie to those meetings with the bishop. But this time I didn't get the chance to change clothes. So I was. My jeans, my T shirt. And I remember that we talked about the book. We talked about what I learned. And then he said he was disappointed that I didn't have my notebook, that I wasn't wearing a suit. And he said. And I remember this because it really hit me. He said, the Lord expected more of you. And I just. I just felt really, really sad because when. When you're a kid, you. Like I said, for me, God and Jesus were so important to me. That knowing and at the time, believing wholeheartedly that that savior who loved me, that was the very same person who now was shaking his head, disappointed. And if the most loving being in the universe didn't love me then, then who would? So it was hard. I remember that my mom. And I know that she had good intentions. But she once told me, right near the end of those three months, she said, you know what? I think the Lord has already forgiven you. He just wants you to show him you mean it. And she said that when we were on the way to meet with the bishop towards the end of those three months. And that also really hit me because it was this idea that I was in love. And that maybe, just maybe, if I went three months without pornography, maybe I would be loved again with an asterisk. Because we had these teachings that, when do I know that I'm forgiven? And I was told in seminary that sometimes that doesn't happen when you finish your repenting process with the bishop, maybe it happens later on and you get a spiritual confirmation. So I thought, I need to wait this three months and then who knows how long until God reveals to me that, that he forgives me. So it was sort of this goose chase of acceptance, of love. And as a kid with anxiety, when you're a teenager, that gets worse because teenagers sometimes are very cruel. And when you combine that with the whole worthiness thing, I had a very, very low self esteem at the time.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] And also eternal progression and celestial kingdom and forever families within a Mormon context, that just increases the severity and the intensity, the stakes of, of the situation. Am I right?

Gustavo Hernandez [00:56:32] Yes. And honestly, I think I learned about the three degrees of glory with my uncle, but I really learned about them in seminary like three years later. So when I was going through the repenting process, I really had no clear idea of what the afterlife was really like. So I think I was lucky because I didn't have that extra pressure. I wasn't really thinking about what happens after death. I was just thinking, I just want to pass the sacrament. I just want to feel that God loves me now.

Religious OCD, Scrupulosity, and Anxiety

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Well, this is a topic we've touched on at various times for 20 years on Mormon stories. It was the subject of my master's degree, which was scrupulosity. And just to reintroduce the new viewers and listeners to the term, I'll just say that, you know, people are kind of sit along a bell curve of anxiety. And the people who tend to have more anxiety sometimes tend to be more likely candidates for things like obsessive compulsive disorder, where they, you know, if you maybe have less anxiety in your personality, masturbation or porn or lying or eternal salvation or whatever, the bishop, your parents, you're just like, I'm doing my best and maybe I won't tell the full truth, but it's fine. God loves me and, you know, whatever, I don't even care. And you can just sort of have even very similar experiences or even just not even feel like you need to confess to your parents or the bishop, but you don't marinate in your guilt. You just kind of like, I'm just doing the best I can and you don't really worry about it, and you might even have a great Mormon experience, even if you know you're doing things you shouldn't be doing because your personality isn't calibrated towards high anxiety or guilt or shame. This term scrupulosity, which is the kind of the medical diagnosis for religious OCD or Obsessive compulsive disorder. The root of the term scrupulosity, I believe, is something like sharp stones or sharp objects. And what it basically means is your conscience is more sensitive. It's as if the guilt and shame you feel cut you inside where it wouldn't other people. And so you already mentioned from your childhood you had more anxiety. You didn't want to get up and bear your testimony. You felt like other people didn't have the same anxiety levels you did. Well, once you get into those teen years, that anxiety, if you combine it with porn and miracle forgiveness and punishment and prohibition on passing the sacrament and guilt and shame in your parents and disappointing them and the bishop and God and his love and eternal salvation, it can even be deadly, if not a severe form of mental illness or anxiety for one set of people who just have that personality type, whereas for a lot of other people it's not a problem at all. And it sounds like you would have met criteria for religious OCD or scrupulosity even as young as 13 years old.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:00:07] Yes. And as an active Mormon, I think that people would expect me to, to say, oh, it wasn't really that. Or, or you know, what I, I learned from it, or try to find an apologetic explanation for it. But, but no, I don't want to because he was. It was bad. It was bad. I, I don't like it. We'll talk about that later on in the story. But, but yeah, I don't feel the need to give divine meaning to those experiences. I just see, I just see a purity culture that goes unhinged and hurts people.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] That's how you feel now, but at the time you didn't frame it that way, is that right?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:01:02] Yes. Well, if the adults who know what's best tell me it's wrong then. And it's wrong. If it's divinely evil, then it is.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] Yeah. Which kind of makes you feel like you might be evil.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:01:21] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Yeah. Which is a lot to carry as a 12 or 13 year old kid. So I'm sorry you had that experience. Not everyone has it. I didn't have it, but a lot of people do. And I'm sorry you had that.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:01:33] I remember that I had this song to cheer me up that I would eventually be good enough. And it's ironic because it's a song from Imagine Dragons. It's on top of the world.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] I'm on top of the world. And Dan Reynolds, the singer for Imagine Dragons, was raised Mormon.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:02:00] Yes, yes. And, and I saw the, the documentary that that you're on Believer, and. And he talks about, you know, getting free from. From shame.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] Oh, because he was kicked out of byu.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:02:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] I think for having sex with his girlfriend.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:02:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in the Believer documentary, it's about the LGBTQ community in the church, and it's all about not feeling shame. But his song was a way for me to cope with my own shame. So it's interesting how those things.

John Dehlin [01:02:37] I'll just say we did interview. I want to interview Dan Reynolds someday. But we did interview Wayne Sermon, who's the lead guitarist for Imagine Dragons on Mormon Stories, and it was great. So shout out to Wayne, or if any of you know Wayne, tell him or Dan. Tell them, y'. All. They got a good shout out today because that's. I'm. I'm happy to hear that documentary, which was released on hbo. It's got Tyler Glenn, Dan Reynolds. It's actually very meaningful to me that. That helped you when you were going through a hard time.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:03:12] Yeah. And I really connected with the part of the song that says, and I know it's hard when you're falling down, and it's a long way up when you hit the ramp, but get up. Now. I was thinking that I fell down and that I needed to get up, that it would be hard, but I needed to do it.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Nice.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:03:31] So I thought that my repenting process was. That was getting back up.

John Dehlin [01:03:37] Nice. The gospel of Imagine Dragons.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:03:42] Yes. And at the end of those three months, I would. I was told by my bishop, okay, you can pass the sacrament. Now. I will say this. The deacons were very nice when I told them that I couldn't pass a sacrament.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] Oh, good.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:04:02] The deacon president, he grabbed my shoulder and he said, okay, everyone, I don't want anyone asking questions about this. Just respect him.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Nice. It sounds like you had a great culture in your. Bored growing up.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:04:17] He's one of my best friends, Rodolfo. If you're watching this, I'll share the link with him.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] The nature, Rodolfo.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:04:25] And I was very happy that I would get to pass the sacrament again. And that very same week, I had a relapse. So I thought, man, do I have to confess again, or do I just kind of continue? What do I do? And I said, there's no way I'm going through that again. So I decided to keep silent. And I realized that for me, I see this now, years later, that it wasn't so much about just curiosity. It was more of a coping mechanism for my anxiety. Every time I felt anxious. I needed the dopamine, you know. So I. During those teenage years, I would have this period of confessing, not confessing, maybe stay silent for a few months, and then confessing again. And I was trying to. I was trying to do what I thought was right, which was to confess to God these things, but without the shame of telling my parents, without feeling like I need to sit down when everyone is blessing the sacrament. And it was that cycle for the next couple of years. This is from 2014 to 2016. And on top of that, something happened in 2016 that changed my life. And then something happened in 2017 that also changed my life.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] Tell us. Do tell.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:06:21] One battle after another. So when I was six in 2016, I was trying to fall asleep once. I had seminary the next day. And I think the lesson was about the plan of salvation. And I thought about, okay, so after the final judgment, we go to a degree of glory, and then we'll be there forever. And I thought, and then what happens? And I thought, okay, you'll be there forever. And the word forever, for some reason, just sort of echoed in my mind. And I had what I now recognize as an anxiety attack. For some reason, I just became very afraid of the concept of existing forever. And my. My heart sunk. I felt my palms sweating. I felt glued to my bed. I felt my. My stomach just like. Like I wanted to throw up and like, I wanted to cry, but I couldn't move. Almost like sleep paralysis. And it was awful. It was awful. I don't know how long it lasted. Maybe it was just a few seconds, a few minutes. But I eventually called my dad and I tried to put into words what I was feeling, but I couldn't really explain it. And he just gave me a blessing. I went back to sleep. I was 14. And after a few days, I had forgotten all about that. A couple of months later, in seminary, there's this lesson. I think most people know it. They have this string across the room, and they say, this string is your existence, and this little dot is your life on earth.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] I had this lesson when I was, you know, in the 1980s. So keep going.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:08:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] So your life is the dot on an infinite string, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:08:37] Yes. And the dot, the. The line is infinite. Your existence is infinite. And I. I felt that same panic again.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] And the idea is, don't screw up. Don't make big mistakes that screw up your infinity in this short little life that you're going to be having. Yes, because you'll be paying for it. I mean, the implication is you'll be Suffering and paying for it for infinity. If you, if you screw up too much in this life. Right?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:09:07] Yes, yes, that, that life is key for eternity. And I just.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Wait, what word? Oh, what? For eternity?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:09:17] Oh, key, key for eternity. That. It's very important.

John Dehlin [01:09:21] Okay. It's okay. Got it.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:09:23] And I just felt panic again because I felt the same fear of eternal existence. And. But I couldn't do anything because I was in front of everyone. I couldn't run, I couldn't cry. I just tried to. To act as if nothing was happening. And during the rest of the day, that feeling didn't go away. That feeling of anxiety, feeling, that existence. I don't know, having sort of an existential crisis almost. And I remember that that day my mom had a Relief Society activity and I was alone in the car. And when I was there, I just started crying. But like, like ugly crying. And I, I was yelling a prayer. I was saying, God, what is this? What are you doing? This is just too much. I can't take it. What. What is this? And it didn't go away. And it stayed for months and months on end. And it made me really depressed. I felt that existence was just something very scary. And I thought that none of the other options were really that helpful. Either I exist, my consciousness exists forever, that's scary. Or I stop existing eventually, or my conscience ends. That's equally scary, if not worse for me. So I felt that my existence was sort of meant to be miserable and be scared forever. So I have the anxiety with my friends. You know, I had crushes and I felt that I wasn't good enough. My friends only like to play sports and video games. I didn't do any of that in school. People, you know, Mexico sometimes can be a few generations behind in regards to culture. But the worst insult they gave me was, oh, you're gay. And I thought that that was very like, that's the worst insult someone can give you at school. So everyone and my friend group was into sports. I wasn't. So you add that with the bishop thing and worthiness and to this existential crisis and I was a mess. And I was a mess. And it was right then that I had the faith crisis that destroyed my faith.

Intellectual Crisis and Discovering Church History

John Dehlin [01:12:21] Oh, really?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:12:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] So you had a full blown existential crisis at like a. 16.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:12:27] Yes, 14.

John Dehlin [01:12:28] 14. 14 years old. Yeah. I mean, you. One word's precocious, but just like mature, intellectually mature beyond your peers. I would say you don't need to. I mean, I'm sure you're shy, but. Or Modest. But I'm calling it.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:12:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:12:50] Intellectually advanced, beyond your peers, which is a good thing and maybe a vexing, painful thing.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:13:00] Yes. Because I couldn't explain what this fear was. In fact, I couldn't put it into words. And I just called it my fear. And when I said my fear, my psychologist would know that that meant I'm terrified of. Of existence.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:13:20] And. And I'm terrified of why do I go to school, why do I have a career. Like, everything feels very meaningless because we'll die. And it was hard for me to. To find meaning. It was hard for me to be in large crowds. I remember that my mom. I just stayed in the house. I didn't leave ever for many months. And my mom would try to take me out to have lunch somewhere. And just seeing like a couple hundred people would. Would make me very anxious. So. So yeah. Yeah. I was afraid of life, afraid of sin, afraid of acceptance.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] Not a fun. Not a fun adolescence. No, no, not fun like a tormented adolescence. And by the way, that's a universal. Not everyone gets it, and not everyone gets it that young. But the existential crisis thing is a semi universal experience. But not necessarily as a Mormon kid at age 14 in Mexico. You know what I mean?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:14:37] Yes. What I will say is that, that the only thing that helped me was hymns and sort of some Tabernacle Choir CDs we had. Like, it sort of gave me hope because they talked about the things that scared me as something beautiful. So it helped me a little.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] Which hymns do you remember?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:15:04] Yes, one of them was called. Well, it's called Calm Down, Front of Every Blessing. That's one.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] That's a great one.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:15:17] I don't remember the name of this.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] No, that's. That's a great hymn.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:15:21] But there's this folk, like, 19th century music album the choir has, and I love that album because it, like Battle

John Dehlin [01:15:34] Hymn of the Republic and oh, Susanna and I Wish I were in Dixie.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:15:39] No, no, it's different. It's. They have some like, I want Jesus to walk with me.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] Oh, okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:15:50] Rocking my soul in the bosom of Abraham.

John Dehlin [01:15:53] Oh, right. So kind of. So kind of evangelical.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:15:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] Kind of black spiritual music.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:15:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] Yeah. Love it, love it. From the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:16:04] I loved the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I still do. Yeah, I share that with you.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:08] Yeah. And it helped me.

John Dehlin [01:16:09] Yeah. And.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:11] And also watching Mormon messages on YouTube.

John Dehlin [01:16:15] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:16] And I was watching them when there was a suggested video.

John Dehlin [01:16:21] Oops.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:22] And that video was Three Tests the Book of Mormon cannot pass.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Who is the author of that video.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:33] No idea.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:35] I haven't found that video ever since, but I do remember the title because I thought, sure, sure, buddy. Let's see what those three tests are.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] Satan runs the algorithms.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:16:48] Yeah. And I don't remember really what the three tests were. I do remember that it involved archaeology, DNA, and I think that Bible teachings, because it was about the. Eventually about the Bible and through Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:17:07] Oh, so it was an evangelical Christian.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:17:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:10] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:17:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] So I remember, you know, criticizing Mormonism in the Book of Mormon or whatever.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:17:16] Yes, yes, The Book of Mormon. How it was this book that it was impossible to believe in. And I remember that when the video ended, instead of feeling, instead of thinking, oh, this guy, he's making stuff up, I remember feeling, oh, my gosh, I never consider those things. How do I answer that? And I remember feeling insecure because all of these things are happening and the only thing that's keeping me sane is the gospel. And now this is putting a question mark on the gospel. So it was a very confusing situation for me, but I thought, okay, I don't want to be surprised. I want to know everything that people could say against it. So I kept watching suggested videos, and those videos led me to Mike Norton, Zeld on the Shelf, Mormon Stories. And at some point, I read the CES letter. I don't remember exactly when, but I do remember that I started to learn about everything. About the stone and the hat, the 1826 trial, even the Canadian Book of Mormon, copyright, Revelation, Blacks and the priesthood, City Creek, you name it, I watched videos about that.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] Did you attend school? Bilingual schools where you learned English as a baby, basically, or did you speak it in the home? Because all those are in English. Right. So you had a really good command of English by the time you're 14. How did you learn English so well?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:19:10] With my aunt and uncle. I. From the months I spent with them.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] You were here?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:19:16] Yes, yes. And a few years before that, I was here for like six months when I was 10.

John Dehlin [01:19:23] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:19:24] So that's.

John Dehlin [01:19:25] Kids learn languages sometimes pretty quick. But you also learned it pretty quick.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:19:28] Okay, yeah. And I. And then it was just listening to YouTube videos that helped me. Okay, so in a way, you helped me learn English.

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Me? Yeah. Okay, so the algorithm. At 14 years old, you have an existential crisis, and then YouTube starts serving you critical, you know, Mormon videos. And for those who don't like New name, it's weird. Like, you wait five years and nobody's heard of anything. So new name Norton. That was Mike. New name Noah is The Internet handle for a guy named Mike Norton, who was the first Mormon themed podcast I listened to in like 2004. He had a podcast called the churchisnotrue.com but also he's the guy that went and filmed the temple ceremony and then put it on the Internet. So you're saying you stumbled on videos of the old version of the Mormon temple ceremony?

Temple Ceremony Videos and Faith Disruption

Gustavo Hernandez [01:20:32] Yes, I stumbled on those videos. I didn't want to watch them because I, I feel like maybe I was crossing a line.

John Dehlin [01:20:40] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:20:41] But I watched his blogs. He. He wanted, I think, to record some updates in the ceremonies. So he made a series of videos. Going undercover.

John Dehlin [01:20:54] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:20:54] Pretending to be a member of a church. And I, I watched those first. So I watched those. I watch your interview with him. I remember very vividly how he talked about as a kid being able to create, what do you call this, like, barcodes, how he was able to mimic that and how he did that with temple recommends.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] Yeah, he was selling fake temple recommends that had barcoded printed on them. So the people who weren't worthy or didn't meet the criteria to enter the temple could. Could go to their child's wedding or their, you know, brother's wedding or just sneak in. Pretty hardcore gnarly stuff. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:21:42] Yeah. So I, I think that was the first time I, I watched Mormon stories. I think that was the first video I saw.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:21:50] Honestly, I didn't consume a lot of Mormon stories because it was long format and I used to watch like 7 minute videos.

John Dehlin [01:21:59] Short things.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:22:00] Yes. But, yeah, I learned about those things and I was confused. I was scared. When I was six, I remember stumbling across a sort of newspaper clip of a cartoon of Joseph looking into a hat. I didn't know what that was.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] Might have been south park cartoon. Was it a cartoon or.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:22:26] Oh, no, no. I mean like a newspaper paper cartoon. Like 19th century.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] Oh, okay. I didn't know those existed, but I didn't either.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:22:35] Yeah, I haven't found that ever since. But I do remember that. And I remember that I avoided it. And I didn't learn anything else about that because that was anti Mormon. But that was my first exposure to anything similar to church criticism at age 6. I remember that the missionaries once, when I was like seven, brought home a. I think it was sort of those evangelical pamphlets that have like, impossible questions for Mormons or things like that. And I remember that the ward got really scared and burned the pamphlet. So I thought, like, like, even though I wasn't told to stay away from all of those things, the the message I got from those experiences was, stay away, stay away. But I had questions that I realized weren't lies, were things that happened and I didn't understand why. So I tried to talk to my branch president and he shut me down immediately because I was in the repentance process still. So he said, you need to focus on that, and then maybe we'll talk about that other stuff, but stay away from that.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] Was that helpful?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:24:07] No. Well, I didn't listen to it.

John Dehlin [01:24:11] It's like your mom with the porn magazines. It's like, oh, that makes me more interested.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:24:15] Yeah. Because I still had those questions. I couldn't just ignore them. And. Yeah. And things just kept adding in. Like the Greek psalter incident of Joseph being given a sort of text. And Joseph says, oh, it's Egyptian. And the guy says, no, it's actually Greek, I think. And how Joseph just stands up and walks away and things like that. And the Book of Abraham and Kinderhook plates. Kinderhook plates, yeah. And I read the CES letter, and I remember that the first time I read about the multiple first vision accounts, I think that was the first time I, like, my faith shattered. And then I read about Freemasonry. And we had the Joseph Smith diaries at home. So I brought out a copy and I looked for 1842. And I read. I spent the afternoon at the Nauvoo Lodge, and I thought, it's true. And I remember being in the couch, just floored, And I think that was the first time I felt, this isn't true, this isn't true. And I panicked. And I remember that I told my mom, like, mom, did you read this? That Joseph was a Freemason? And she looked at it and she said, I didn't know, but. And she just ignored it. But at the same time, I was just panicking inside. And it's funny because at that age, I didn't know what Freemasonry was, but I was told it was bad. So I said, I can't believe in this anymore. And at age 14, I stopped believing.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] Dang. I mean, like, I had doubts and questions. As a. As a teenager, this is all pre Internet. This is in the 80s. And I wondered, is there really a God? And, you know, why am I not getting my testimony confirmed? And why are there so few Mormons? And why was there racism and why was the priesthood ban and why was there polygamy? But never in my teen years did I allow my brain to actually think, well, maybe the church isn't true. It was more just like, why can't I get the witness, why can't I get the testimony sort of thing. Even though I had some questions, I can't imagine what it would have been like in high school if I had had access to the CES letter and Mormon stories and Zelf on the shelf. And, and even in 2026 in Utah, most teens, I don't think, end up having access to that stuff. Either they've been warned to stay away or it doesn't get served up to them or I don't know what. But like I'm still meeting 20 somethings and 30 somethings in 2026 that have never heard of any of this. So I just can't imagine what that would have been like for you, you know?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:27:53] Yes. And when I hear people's stories, learning about these topics, I hear how they, they had one narrative their entire lives and, and how, how hard it is when you realize it was different all along.

John Dehlin [01:28:13] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:28:15] In my experience, there were many things that I just learned at the same time. For the first time, when I was learning about criticisms, for example, I learned about the priesthood ban when I watched videos on the priesthood ban. Like I didn't know that existed before.

John Dehlin [01:28:33] Oh, so you hadn't been even taught that there was a priesthood ban?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:28:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:37] So you both had to learn that the priesthood ban existed before then you could learn that it was taken away before you could even process that. That's a problem.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:28:47] Yes. So I didn't have a sort of, I don't know, whitewashed version.

John Dehlin [01:28:53] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:28:53] I just learned it at the same time I learned the controversy surrounding it.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] I think that is whitewashed when you're not told any of the problems. I mean, I think.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:29:03] Yeah, well, I mean I wasn't told the, that, oh, there was a priesthood band, but who knows why there was a bracelet band.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] Got it. Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:29:13] So, so yeah, yeah, that, that happened. I remember that I didn't care too much about some topics, but that was because of my age. For example, when I read about Helen Mark Kimball, I didn't think it was something that serious because I was 14.

John Dehlin [01:29:36] Yes.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:29:37] And I. Well, in the church, by the way,

John Dehlin [01:29:41] this is Joseph Smith, one of Joseph's 14 year old wives.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:29:44] Yes, yes. And in the church you're advised to go on group dates when you're 16. Right. So I was eager to date. So when I heard a 14 year old was married, I just thought, I want to get married, I want to go on dates. So I didn't see it as something serious. But that was because I was a kid. And so when I realized I didn't believe anymore, I. Well, I thought, what do I do? I'm not gonna tell anyone. I can't. But I. I also can't leave the church. I'm 15. I can just stop going without my parents noticing. So what do I do?

John Dehlin [01:30:36] Mm. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:30:38] And it was, like, three months of not knowing what to do.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] I mean, what does that do when you're already dealing with an existential crisis to have on top of that your belief in your church, in your church completely evaporate? Like, what does that do? Did that compound your existential crisis? Or did it make you feel better? Because maybe the shame you were experiencing was in a Mormon context. So if the church isn't true, maybe some of the shame or fear goes away. I don't know. Or the pressure.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:31:12] I'm trying to remember.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] Did it make you feel worse or better to lose your faith?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:31:17] Yes, because I do remember if I lost my faith but still believe in God, or if I lost my faith and also stop faith in God.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] Right.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:31:27] I don't remember.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] Yeah, sure. Which is probably a lot, you know? But

Gustavo Hernandez [01:31:35] I do remember that it didn't make it worse, but it was just, like, added to the list of the things that make me anxious. I think that the existential crisis of being afraid of eternal existence, regardless if it's the evangelical eternal existence or the Mormon eternal existence or the Buddhist eternal existence, like, just eternal existence was what making me terrified and afraid. And church history was sort of secondary, but it was still something that made me anxious.

John Dehlin [01:32:14] I will say just in my scrupulosity research and treatment of people with scrupulosity, Mormons with scrupulosity. I did find sometimes that when Mormons lost their faith in the church, their scrupulosity symptoms would decrease and they would just feel less anxious about religion. Now, sometimes the anxiety just transfers to some other worry like cleanliness or safety or whatever. But losing your faith can be helpful for scrupulosity.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:32:44] Yes, yes. And I would say that it helped me, but that's some years down the line. But at the time, I was confused.

John Dehlin [01:32:57] Yeah, sure, sure. And you said you couldn't really talk to your parents or your branch president about it.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:33:05] Yeah, yeah, I couldn't tell them.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] Or your seminary teacher.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:33:09] Yeah, no, no, I couldn't because.

John Dehlin [01:33:12] Or friends.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:33:13] Like I said, my early Mormon years were very good, helpful. But the past, like, three years before this happened were really hard. That was when I was first introduced to the idea that if you partake unworthily of the sacrament you take, eat and drink condemnation for your soul.

John Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah, that is a teaching.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:33:41] That was the first time I was told that in a seminary class when I was in my repentance process. So that didn't help.

John Dehlin [01:33:49] Yeah. So I forgot about that.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:33:51] So those teachings sort of made me feel like I couldn't tell anyone because their only response would be, well, like Job, this is happening because you're sinning.

John Dehlin [01:34:11] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:34:12] Or this is happening because you are easily fooled. And yeah, I felt like I couldn't really trust anyone. At the same time, I did feel that I couldn't trust the ex Mormon community because I was an anxious kid. And watching videos of people saying how stupid of Joseph to put his head on a hat, that made me feel more anxious. Like almost as if people told me Joseph was in needed and you are in needed for believing it.

Rereading the Book of Mormon and Seeking Resolution

John Dehlin [01:34:52] Yeah, yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:34:54] And I just thought that I couldn't reach out to those people because they would mock me for having believed that at all. And I just didn't know what to do. That year was the lds, they have a scripture every year for the youth. And that year was James 1:5. If you lack of wisdom, ask of God. And I remember that it went to the FSY we had in Mexico that year.

John Dehlin [01:35:35] That's for the strength of youth. It's like Mormon youth summer camp, basically.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:35:40] Yeah. A one week summer camp. And someone talked about their conversion experience and invited the youth to read the Book of Mormon. And by that time I knew about the skin of blackness. I knew about the changes from white and delightsome to pure and delightsome. And I knew about the changes from Mother of God to the mother of the Son of God,

John Dehlin [01:36:10] the Trinity changes about Book of Mormon having a trinitarian or modalistic God, that sort of thing.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:36:18] Yes. And the horses and the chariots. I had seen the memes of tapirs carrying chariots, the anachronisms.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] What about DNA? Native Americans?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:36:30] Yeah, that as well. And I was more familiar with also the CS letter, arguments about the view of the Hebrews, the late war and the Book of Napoleon, the cities that Joseph would have been familiar with that have similar names in the Book of Mormon, things like that.

John Dehlin [01:36:54] I'm just going to say you Learned more by 14 or 15 or 16 than most ex Mormons ever learn.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:37:03] I read a lot.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] Yeah. Most ex Mormons, even by the time they got sick of studying Mormonism and just like move on, they will not have learned half the stuff you learned. So that's truly remarkable, honestly. Yeah, I'VE talked to a lot of ex Mormons and you're not an ex Mormon, by the way, but I've talked to tens of thousands of Mormons that had big crises, you know.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:37:28] Yes. And, and I knew all those things, but I hadn't, I never read the Book of Mormon for myself, like never. Like, I never really picked it up and said, I'm going to start from first Nephi. I never did that. So I thought, you know, I'm, I'm quitting on this. But I, I never gave the Book of Mormon a chance. Maybe I should read it just, just to be, be sure. And I decided to read the Book of Mormon. And as I read through the book, I was identifying all those things. I said, oh, Lamanites and Nephites, mound builder myth of two civilizations, one of them is destroyed, the other one are the Native Americans. And yes, as I was reading through, I just was identifying all the problems that were mentioned in the videos and the documents. And it was a very strange experience because I was doing that at the same time I felt I was having a spiritual experience with the book.

John Dehlin [01:38:40] Oh, so talk about that. What were the good feelings you were feeling? So

Gustavo Hernandez [01:38:49] I remember that as I was reading the book, I was getting this message of hope that God remembers everyone. And I, I didn't mention this, but the church has their own version of the 12 step program. And when I was 14, my bishop told me to go to some of these meetings.

John Dehlin [01:39:22] Just to be clear, this isn't for alcoholism. It's for porn and masturbation. And it's called the addiction recovery program.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:39:28] Yes, yes. And the people in the group were all grown up and their problem was alcohol. So I was the only one.

John Dehlin [01:39:39] Oh, wow. But it was a Mormon led group. Yes, but they were struggling with alcohol. So it's for all addictions. I guess in the Utah context it's predominantly porno masturbation. But it sounds like it's different in Mexico City or at least was in your.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:39:54] Yeah, at least in my group it was alcohol mostly. And I remember that one time the brother that was leading the group read the last verse of the first chapter in First Nephi that said and I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord give people strength to break out of bondage or something like that. And I remember that I was noticing that theme in the Book of Mormon as I was reading it. I was also, I remember that one time someone, I don't know who, pointed out that Alma1 was talking about Nehor but never mentioned him by name until the very end. And he said, that is a clear evidence of dictation, not writing. And also, first Nephi, of saying the servant of Laban. The servant of Laban and then Zoro, that those are evidences that someone's dictating and remembers the name and not something that's planned out and written down. So I remember that I was identifying those things and saying, oh, that's the thing that people say is a dictation. Oh, this is the thing that people say is in the Necronism. Oh, this is the thing that sound like Kim Benjamin to this day. I'm not a fan of Kim Benjamin's speech.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Why not?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:41:27] I really don't like it. Because it does sound evangelical.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] Yeah, it does. And it was.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:41:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:37] Because Joseph was exposed to a lot of evangelical.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:41:41] Yes. And when I read the speech, I thought, oh, 19th century teachings. So it was a very strange experience because I was finding a lot of value in what I was reading. And at the same time, I could point out the problems that I had found.

John Dehlin [01:42:07] And this is the first time you'd read the Book of Mormon for kind of spiritual sustenance. Is that fair to say?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:42:12] Yes. And the first time I read it at all. Mm. So by the time I finished the book, I didn't know. I didn't know what to think or what to do.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] Yeah, it's confusing.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:42:28] So I said, all right, I guess I'll pray. That's all I have left in a way.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] I mean, Moroni tells you what you're gonna do, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:42:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:39] Moroni, 10 4.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:42:40] Moroni 10 4. So I knelt down, I prayed, and I remember that I ended up feeling more confused because I. I don't know who said this. I think it was Jim Bennett. He said that he never had this confirmation of, oh, the church is true, but he had experience of. Of sort of divine knowledge or divine. I don't know, certainty been sort of bestowed. And I remember having a similar experience, and the message wasn't, the church is true or don't worry about the problems or ignore them. It was just, it's okay. You can be a Mormon. That was the experience I had. So I thought, okay, but what about the tapers? What do we do about that? Can you be a little more specific? And. And it was still confusing, but at least I kind of had that certainty that I could be a Mormon. So I said, okay. Okay. But I still had all of those questions. And at that time, I never came across a fair Mormon article, an apologist Video. For some reason, I had been consuming that content for months and months on end and I never came across any apologetics.

John Dehlin [01:44:44] You kind of resolved your faith crisis at the time yourself.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:44:50] Yeah, yeah. Without the politics in sense, what kind

John Dehlin [01:44:53] of God or divine whatever. Right? Yeah, yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:44:58] So I said, okay, but I still need to figure out what the heck all of this is, because I can't just ignore the idea that once the the family of Fable is ordained to the priesthood, only then will the descendants of Cain be ordained to the priesthood. I can't just ignore that. I can't ignore it happened. But what do I do about it? And am I endorsing racism if I stay in the church? Am I saying that it's okay to lie about polygamy if I stay in the church? Like I'm. I wanted to be true to myself and what I believed was right. And at the same time, I had this experience. So it was a little hard. But the good news is that during this time, the existential crisis and Paul Bishop thing, all of that got sort of temporarily resolved. So I wasn't worried about those things.

John Dehlin [01:46:21] Nice. Was kind of the divine manifestation, whatever it was sort of like, huh, there's something there. I don't know what it is, but there's something there. I mean, that might resolve some of your existential concerns.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:46:37] Yes. And. And also a therapist told me this once. You can't have a panic attack 24 7. As awful as it is, as eternal as it may seem, it eventually stops. So it was that and a combination with this experience.

Therapy, Mission Decision, and Recommitting to Faith

John Dehlin [01:47:01] So were your parents sending you to a therapist as a teenager?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:47:05] Yes, but not for the right reasons. I was into a therapist for pornography.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] Okay, like a Mormon therapist.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:47:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:47:17] But they knew about anxiety and depression.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:47:20] No, they didn't. No. Okay, they didn't. And looking back, the therapy never focused on pornography. It did focus on anxiety, but I didn't know what anxiety was at the time. I didn't know it was a condition. I didn't know it was something you had to work through. I thought that I was just sort of healing my brain from pornography. I thought that that's what I was doing.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] Oh, okay. Wow. Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:47:52] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] Ugh. That's not so good. But I'm glad you made it through.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:47:58] Yeah, yeah. So that was. I mean, the therapist who told me about the panic attacks that. That's a therapist I had years later.

John Dehlin [01:48:08] Okay, later. Got it. Okay. So how did your life pursue church wise? I mean, you're somewhere between 14 and 18. A mission is staring you in the face. At this point, you're. You had lost. You had. Had the existential crisis, lost your faith, but now you're starting to gain a different type of faith. What happens between that point and the decision to go on a mission or not?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:48:37] Well, the moment I decided to continue being a Mormon, I never really struggled with the choice of serving a mission because I don't know, that was always the next step. So if I'm a Mormon, I'll serve a mission.

John Dehlin [01:48:59] So

Gustavo Hernandez [01:49:02] after I decided to keep attending church and decided that I believed in the main truth claims, that being Joseph saw God and Jesus and an angel, I would at the time limit myself to that. And eventually I did find videos from fair Mormon, from Saints Unscripted who the. The channel was called Three Mormons back then and fairmormon articles. The Jim Bennett replied to the CES letter. And I remember that I was sort of obsessed with apologetics and I became a very, I don't know, orthodox believer. So I believe that there was this seven dispensation time period that we have prophets and the keys are past the first one, Saddam the second, Enoch the third, Noah and so on. So I was really obsessed with, with theology. And I said, of course I'm going to go on a mission. I was very excited to talk about theology with, with people and the historical controversies. Just, I didn't ignore them, but it didn't matter that much anymore to me.

John Dehlin [01:50:51] So am I. Let me make sure I understand. So truth claims didn't matter, but you started really caring about theology, which is kind of different than truth claims, and that theology did matter. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:51:04] Yes, and I was assuming that the truth claims were all true.

John Dehlin [01:51:11] Oh, so you just sort of said, I had all those doubts and I learned all that stuff, but fill in the blank.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:51:17] But I still believe that this is the true church, that we have prophets and apostles, and that our theology is correct, and I can't wait to share it.

John Dehlin [01:51:30] But did you just put everything on the shelf and say kinder plates, DNA, Peepstone in the hat, Anachronisms, DNA. What will you do with all that? What did you do with all that?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:51:41] I didn't put them on the shelf because for me at the time, the apologetic answers were enough.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] Oh, so you just sort of said, oh, fair and three Mormons and Saints unscripted. Kwaku. They've got the answers. Sweet. Problem solved.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:51:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:51:58] Okay, cool. Fun. And is this the time where you started hating me and Mormon stories? Well, or later?

Preparing for and Entering Missionary Service

Gustavo Hernandez [01:52:05] No, it was in 2017.

John Dehlin [01:52:09] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:52:10] Because I felt what I said earlier that people saying, Joseph's an idiot and you're an idiot. So I felt that the ex Mormon read it. I felt that Mormon stories, I was taking those things as personal attacks even though no one knew me.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] So by the way, I don't think I've ever said that, but maybe other people did. Or maybe that's the tone that you heard.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:52:41] Yeah, well, yeah, maybe those weren't the words used. That's just how I felt.

John Dehlin [01:52:47] No, and that's valid. I mean, we do laugh sometimes or at the ridiculousness of some of the stories. And I'm sure that can feel. My family members have told me that. That can feel insulting.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:52:59] Yeah. That's what I felt at the time. And I remember that once I had my faith, once I had regained it, I did go into the ex Mormon Reddit and I think I bore my testimony. I told my story and I bore my testimony at the end.

John Dehlin [01:53:19] This is before your mission?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:53:21] Yes. I was 15,

John Dehlin [01:53:25] a 15 year old Mormon from Mexico sermonizing and bearing testimony and calling ex Mormon Reddit to repentance. I love it. Yeah, Maybe we can find that thread. Is the thread still there?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:53:38] I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] If it is, share it with me and Julia and we can put it in the show notes.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:53:43] I have tried to find it, but it's 10 years old.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] Unless you don't want to be. Maybe you don't want to be outed in that identity.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:53:50] But no, I remember sharing that. But I remember that some people got mad and some people said, oh, I know where you're at. I was there before. Yes. And one day you'll join us. I remember that one comment said that and I remember that that sort of made me want to double down and say, well, I will never leave the church. So that you're not right. But I remember that I talked to some people on Reddit that were very kind and thoughtful and I remember that that was the first time I thought, you know what, maybe ex Mormons aren't so bad after all.

John Dehlin [01:54:45] Oh, because some were nice to you?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:54:47] Yes, yes. We had good conversations with some of them that threatened.

John Dehlin [01:54:52] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:54:52] And. But yeah, I thought all the content creators are bad because they're mocking me.

John Dehlin [01:55:03] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:55:03] So that's what I felt at the time. But, well, When I was 17, 18, I was obsessed with sharing scriptures with people and, and bearing my testimony. So I put in my papers to serve a mission.

John Dehlin [01:55:23] So really quickly, like you're interacting with all your Mormon peers at church Sunday School, seminary, young men's, young women's, whatever, youth conference. You would know a boatload about church history at this point, such that you would probably have all the time heard youth or adults who were faithful Mormons say things that were wrong or say things that were mistaken or deny things that were true. And I'm wondering how you would have handled that back then, like telling your gospel doctrine teacher she was wrong or he was wrong, or telling missionaries coming to visit you don't know what you're talking about or you know what I mean. Was that a thing? I'm imagining that was a thing?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:56:11] Not really. Because if no one's talking about polygamy, they can't say anything wrong about polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:56:21] So I love it.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:56:24] So it was the same for the priesthood ban, Book of Mormon, like, if no one's talking about it, they can really say anything actually wrong.

John Dehlin [01:56:33] Were you able to find anyone in Mexico that, like face to face that like, knew these things, had been through what you've been through that you could talk to and like, joke at seminary or Sunday school joke about this stuff?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:56:48] No.

John Dehlin [01:56:49] It must have felt lonely.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:56:52] Yeah, it was lonely, but it was fun.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] It was fun.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:56:56] Yeah, it was fun because, I don't know, I felt calm, glad that I knew those things because I knew. I don't know. I think it was part of also my anxiety that I want to be sometimes ready for every single possible scenario.

John Dehlin [01:57:21] Knowledge is power.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:57:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] And also it's your anxiety that drove you to become so knowledgeable. So nowadays it's normal to reframe, quote, mental illness as actually strengths or assets, not always liabilities. And it sounds like your anxiety led to a lot of knowledge and confidence. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:57:44] And made me feel confident that I couldn't be surprised when it came to truth claims.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:57:57] And when I decided to put in my mission papers, in some part you have to talk about health. And I remember that I started to type what I didn't know was anxiety and some hints of depression, but I was writing about those things, how I felt low self esteem as a kid and all of that. And I remember that my mom, I was checking with my grandma because they, almost as long as I can remember, they've been missionaries for the church, my grandparents.

John Dehlin [01:58:43] Oh, like senior missionaries?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:58:46] Yes, senior missionaries. My grandpa's a doctor, so he's always been a doctor. Missionary for missionaries at the MTC at the visitor center.

John Dehlin [01:58:56] In Mexico.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:58:57] In Mexico.

John Dehlin [01:58:57] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [01:58:59] And they are very familiar with how the missionary process works. So my mom was checking in with them if we were doing the correct paperwork. And then she mentioned this, that I wrote this, and my grandma said, no, delete that. Because if they read that, they might not assign him to a mission. And I, I didn't know, I didn't understand that when that happened, I just thought, okay, that's what they say, I'll delete it. And yeah, I sent my papers and I was called to serve in the Guatemala Coban mission.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] Coban. So yeah, so when I was in Guatemala, there was the north, south and Quetzaltenongo missions. Coban was part of the north mission. It didn't have its own mission, so that's cool. How many missions were in Guatemala?

Gustavo Hernandez [01:59:58] Six.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] There were six?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:00:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] I think you don't end up serving your full mission in Guatemala, but I mean, so there were six at the time you got called.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:00:06] Okay, yeah, six, like maybe four in the city.

John Dehlin [02:00:11] I served in Coban for a month. And that's also kind of near polar cheek, right? Kind of like. Yes.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:00:19] Yeah, yeah. So I was excited to serve outside the country. Some people were laughing because it was right next to Mexico, but I didn't care. I was excited.

John Dehlin [02:00:33] And that's. They speak kachi, right? Which is a dialect.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:00:37] Yes, kakchi. But I wasn't assigned to teach in catching.

John Dehlin [02:00:41] Okay, okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:00:42] I was assigned to teach in Spanish. Some get the specific assignment and they have to learn that for nine weeks. But yeah, I was the regular three week MTC missionary.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] Was pay 10 in your mission?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:00:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] Okay, Tikal. And pay 10. Yes, Koban.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:01:04] Yes, Tikal. And I was very excited. I was very excited, very happy to serve a mission. And. Oh, I forgot to mention this, but one of the criticisms that struck me the most. Well, I mentioned it Freemasonry. And I knew about. I mean, I knew more details about the temple endowment that maybe a 14 year old usually knows.

John Dehlin [02:01:31] Yeah, thanks. New name, Noah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:01:35] And. And I had to go through the temple. I remember that when I learned about the details of the endowment When I was 15, I was dying to go through the temple. And that three year wait was excruciating because I needed to know if it was a spiritual experience or a culty experience. I needed to know because I already knew the basic structure. I knew about the penalties. I knew about the oath of vengeance. I knew about the five points of fellowship. I knew about some words in other language. I knew about all those details. And I hadn't gone through the endowment yet. And I knew that there had been recent changes. I knew that I.

John Dehlin [02:02:29] In 1990, they took all that stuff out 12 years before you were born.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:02:35] Yeah. And I knew that I didn't have to wear a poncho anymore.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] Washings and anointings.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:02:44] Yes. Yes. I knew that those things weren't part of the ceremony anymore, but I wanted to experience it. So I went through the temple. I was very nervous. Everyone around me was excited. They didn't know the full extent of what I knew about the temple. And honestly, it was a very good experience.

John Dehlin [02:03:12] Well, way less culty than you would have anticipated, because they took out all the really rough stuff.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:03:18] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:19] That's good.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:03:20] It was a different version of the endowment that my grandparents went through. That you went through.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:03:29] And I really liked it. And I remember feeling so relieved.

John Dehlin [02:03:36] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:03:36] That. That it ended up being a good experience for me.

John Dehlin [02:03:40] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:03:42] So I decided to be a temple worker, and I got obsessed with the theology, like I said, and I was more than ready to serve a mission. This was towards the end of 2019.

John Dehlin [02:03:59] Okay. Right before COVID Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:04:02] I arrived at the Guatemala City MTC on December 18th in Vista Hermosa.

John Dehlin [02:04:09] Zona Quince.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:04:11] Yes. Right across the street from the Guatemala Temple.

John Dehlin [02:04:15] Yeah. I served in Zone 15.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:04:18] I've heard stories about Bistermosa, it's called, about Zone 18 and the Mara and how the missionaries get kidnapped all the time there.

John Dehlin [02:04:29] Oh, wow.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:04:30] Yeah. It's a bit insane, but I had a good experience in the Guatemala City mtc. But I was so ready. So, so ready. And when I was at the mtc, my instructor said, let's do a role play, and let's have a couple of you knock on my door and talk to me. And I remember that it was then that I had a huge, huge, huge feeling of anxiety. And all of a sudden, the mission that I was very excited to serve was something I was terrified of. And I didn't understand why, but talking to people caused me extreme anxiety. And I learned that very early on in the mtc, and people told me, oh, you're just getting used to it. You'll get used to it. And I just remember crying, having stomach problems, and not knowing why. If I have this super strong testimony, especially if I know all the church criticisms. Right. Why do I feel this way? Why do I have so much anxiety? And I couldn't understand why. And the MTC was awful. And people just kept telling me that the MTC was the best part of the mission. So I thought, so it's about to get worse. And when I eventually went to Copan, I felt awful. I felt awful. I couldn't talk to people, I couldn't rest, I couldn't sleep. I was always counting down. If we Left House at 10am I was doing a countdown on my watch for 9pm so we could go back and sleep. And every time I was sleeping I was afraid of the next day and, and talking to people. I remember that one of the mission goals was to talk to 20 people every day. And 20 people, that was like a thousand for me. Like talking to one person was excruciating. And it was hard. It was hard in that sense. And it was also hard because I was in a small town. It was called Frail Bartolome de las Casas. And this place was, we had a ton of churches there. It was the Catholic Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and all in a two mile radius. And there was a lot of competition. But I realized that people didn't understand nor cared about what we were talking about. Like people didn't understand what apostasy was and they didn't care about what apostasy was.

Mission Experiences, Culture Shock, and Anxiety

John Dehlin [02:08:09] Right.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:08:10] So it was hard to make them care. Yeah, yeah. So some people listen to us because they thought we were nice, but I knew they didn't really care about what we were talking about.

John Dehlin [02:08:27] I mean, if you think about it, you know, if Joseph Smith was important in the formation of Mormon theology, let's just say he was caring about the stuff that people were caring about in the early 19th century and Christians were all trying to figure out authority and, you know, that sort of thing. And so apostasy mattered to him and to people in the day. But that doesn't mean in, you know, Guatemala, in 20, 20, 20, people care about that stuff. Right. So it's. And a religion itself can be anachronistic in terms of not necessarily being relevant for the modern times to some people.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:09:10] Yes. I would say that people did care a lot about choosing the right church.

John Dehlin [02:09:18] Right.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:09:20] But every time we would talk about like doctrine concepts, they didn't really care.

John Dehlin [02:09:30] Yeah, yeah. You might want to be in the right church, but you might not care if there was an apostasy or not or what someone's line of authority is, or whether it's the laying on of hands or baptism by immersion or whatever. You may not care about some of those details.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:09:44] Yeah. Yes. And I remember that the mission culture in Guatemala was a very healthy culture. I really liked it. When you're a kid, you see the missionaries as sort of superheroes. And I think the missionaries there were the closest thing I'VE seen to that ideal. They were very kind. I remember.

John Dehlin [02:10:07] Were they called fleches?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:10:10] One of them was called the Fleche.

John Dehlin [02:10:12] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:10:14] But I remember my zone leader. He lives here in Salt Lake. He's the kindest missionary I've ever met. I remember that there was this rule because missionaries could get kidnapped for money, that we didn't have to give money away. So I remember that I saw people asking us for money and I didn't know how to say no without sounding rude. And I saw this missionary, when people ask him for help, he would go out and get them water or get them food, but not to get rid of them, but to help them. He would smile, he would hug these people. He was a very, very kind person. And I, I remember him dearly. So it was a very good culture. But that didn't take away my anxiety. It was, it was nasty. I, I couldn't picture myself being there two years at the same time. I, I did still consider myself a failure for the pornography relapses. And I thought the least I can do is make it to two years, because if I can stay of pornography for more than three months at a time, at least I can do this. Like, I was very obsessed with doing the two years. And in the middle of that, the pandemic started.

John Dehlin [02:12:03] Wait, did you confess to your mission president that stuff or did you just avoid.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:12:08] No, it wasn't an issue back then, so I didn't talk to him about it. So when the pandemic hit, we were sent home to Mexico. To Mexico. And I had just spent like four months in Guatemala. And four months felt like a lifetime. Yeah, because I, I don't know if you've seen the movie Jumanji.

John Dehlin [02:12:32] Yeah, I have.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:12:34] The. The original with Robin Williams. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:12:38] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:12:39] So for those who don't know, it's this movie about a board game and when you play it, it comes to life.

John Dehlin [02:12:45] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:12:46] So it's about this kid in the 60s who plays and gets sucked in the game and he comes back after many years. He's Robin Williams now. And at the end of the movie, they finish the game and everything goes back to the day started in the 60s. So now you have this kid who lived like decades worth of life back into a 12 year old body. That's how I felt. I felt like I had lived a whole lifetime in Guatemala and all of a sudden I was 18. Again,

John Dehlin [02:13:27] this is an uninformed view, but it was a huge culture shock to me. Like when I got called to Guatemala from Texas, I didn't even know where Guatemala was. I had to go look on a map. Oh, Central America. Okay. No, but obviously a different language, lots of really different culture. I think I would have just assumed that the transition from Mexico to Guatemal culturally would be a lot easier than maybe from Texas or the United States, Utah to Guatemala. But you're saying it was a really big culture shock or just more the social elements of it?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:14:02] Yeah, I would say it was more being a missionary.

John Dehlin [02:14:05] Okay. And I did have this theory that, you know, part of it would have been social anxiety for you, but it is different because I remember going to Guatemala wanting a testimony really bad, not getting the testimony I wanted, and then realizing I got to teach this now to other people. Like, it's one thing if I have figured out a way to be okay with it, but, like, I don't know how I feel about teaching it to other people. And I remember feeling the equivalent to what I could experience as a panic attack, thinking, I can't say I know this and I can't testify that I know this and do I want other people converting and giving their life to it when I'm not totally sure. That was a big stressor for me. And I wonder if that might have been part of the stressor for you. But maybe it wasn't. I don't want to project that on your story, but.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:14:54] Well, it wasn't because I was very confident at this time.

John Dehlin [02:14:57] Okay, so you. Okay, so that wasn't a part of it. Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:15:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:01] I'll just say really quickly. You mentioned zone 18 being unsafe. I was called to open San Jose Pinula as like, my second area. And so that. That was an area that I started with no branch. And we built it up to like 40 members in the branch before I left. And I think there's a chapel there today. But it's also, what a very unsafe area. San Jose Pinula.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:15:23] Yes, we heard horror stories from that area.

John Dehlin [02:15:26] I never got kidnapped. So anyway, that's interesting to hear about zone 18.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:15:32] Yeah. And I mean, for the sake of time, I won't delve into too much details on Guatemala, but the people I met there are wonderful. And the members I met there were also wonderful. It was a small branch and everyone, even the branch person, was a convert. All of them were recent converts, like one, two years. And it was beautiful to see a side of the church. It was surprising, but it was also refreshing to see a side of the church who don't know who Dietard Christopherson is. And for them, the pure gospel Is the Book of Mormon their community? That's all they know. They don't even have a temple nearby. So it was very interesting to see that site. And it was beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:16:29] Obviously. Just really quickly, those who have listened to the very first episode of Mormon stories or have heard me talk about it. There was a real baptism problem when I was a missionary where they were baptizing 700 plus people a month in our mission and 8 year olds, 7 year olds, like no parental consent and their Rewards with literally 800 to 1,000 people on a record with like 20 people attending. It was a real retention problem and a corruption of baptisms. Were you exposed to that, having been a history in the missionary work in Guatemala during the time you were there?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:17:12] Not in Guatemala.

John Dehlin [02:17:14] Okay. In Mexico, yes. Okay. So in Guatemala you had never learned of all that stuff happening in the past?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:17:21] No.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] Okay. All right.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:17:23] Didn't know.

John Dehlin [02:17:24] Should we go to Mexico? Your mission in Mexico then?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:17:26] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I spent six weeks at home before I got my new calling to serve in Tijuana. During those six weeks, I was still a missionary and I felt the responsibility to. To wake up at 6:30 to plan my day. I didn't have a companion. I didn't have anyone to teach, but I had to find something out.

John Dehlin [02:17:55] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:17:57] And. And I remember that it was stressful. I mean, I enjoyed it, but I was stressful because I didn't want to go back out.

John Dehlin [02:18:09] You felt good to be home and.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:18:11] Yes, but. But again, I thought I failed. When I was a teenager, I had a faith crisis when people don't have faith crisis. That's what I thought. So the least I can do is serve the full two years.

John Dehlin [02:18:28] Yeah. Yeah. You're kind of like atoning for your sins, trying to make good, you know?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:18:35] Yes. And I got called to serve in Tijuana. I go there and I immediately see the other side of the coin when it comes to missionary work. Because the missionary culture there was tough. It was in the middle of the pandemic, so we couldn't go out. And the zone leader was. Well, the mission president was obsessed with goals and metrics and numbers and for him, a new person, if we were teaching someone new, we could only count that person if we had a baptismal date. So my zone leader, my district leader was pushing me and my companion to invite to extend a date.

John Dehlin [02:19:43] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:19:44] The first time we talk to someone.

John Dehlin [02:19:45] Yeah, totally the same as my mission. Set a date, challenge them to be baptized. The very first day you meet them and try to get a date, that's totally how my mission was.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:19:55] And if you don't do that, you can't count them as someone you're teaching.

John Dehlin [02:20:00] Yeah. So you got to meet this quota of teaching people, but if you don't challenge them to get baptized, you can't even count them towards your quota.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:20:07] Yeah. So we could talk to, I don't know, 15 people during the week.

John Dehlin [02:20:11] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:20:12] But if we didn't challenge them.

John Dehlin [02:20:14] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:20:17] The number was zero.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] And it was hard for you to even talk to people. I imagine challenging. Imagine challenging someone to get baptized the first time you meet them. How hard that is for somebody with social anxiety or anyone.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:20:29] I tried to do that once over the phone, and I.

John Dehlin [02:20:33] Over the phone.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:20:34] Over the phone, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:36] Hi. We've never met. I'm a mission Mormon missionary. Would you like to get baptized? Let's set a date.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:20:44] Something like that. So I did it. And it was. I was talking to this lady who was with this baby, and he was crying, and she wasn't really paying attention. But I. I said it because I knew that my soul leader would get mad at me if we didn't do it. So.

John Dehlin [02:21:08] So cringy.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:21:09] Yeah. Yeah. It was rough. It was rough. And did you feel like it was

John Dehlin [02:21:15] wrong to do that?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:21:16] Yes, totally.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:21:17] And I sent emails to. To my parents and to my friends, sort of saying, I'm not crazy. This is wrong. Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:28] Were you also taught exact obedience as a missionary?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:21:34] Yes. Yes. In Tijuana. And fortunately, many of the replies I got to my email was, yeah, that's weird. Why don't you talk to him? And I thought, okay, okay. But I sent it to this missionary who had served in my ward before I left on the mission. And she answered and said, do what you're told. Don't question it. And that's how blessings come.

John Dehlin [02:22:05] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:22:06] And everyone told me that it was strange, but I chose to believe her.

John Dehlin [02:22:14] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:22:15] So I said, okay, let's do it. And then it never worked. It was very cringy, as you said. And the mission president was released just a month into my service in Tijuana, and a new mission president was called. And this mission president was kinder, but still very focused on results, on numbers. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:22:46] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:22:47] And I remember that I was called to be a. I don't even remember the name, but to be in the office building and order more copies of the Book of Mormon and name tags and keep a record of baptisms.

John Dehlin [02:23:06] These are called office elders in our mission or secretaries.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:23:09] Yeah, office elders. And in that area, my district leader was just rough, rough Rough. He would belittle me if we didn't reach a quota. So it was awful. The anxiety just got worse. If the anxiety got awful with a good mission culture, the anxiety got way worse with a bad mission culture. And I couldn't sleep. I couldn't. Yeah, I couldn't function as a human being. And I remember that I told my mission president what was happening, and he congratulated me for caring about being a good missionary. So I thought that I was alone again. And. And during this time, it just got worse and worse and worse until the mission president couldn't really ignore it anymore. And it was until I was obviously feeling terrible that he said, I think you should see a therapist. And that was the first time someone told me I had anxiety and depression. And those were new terms for me. I didn't know what that was, so I had to be explained how it worked. And I was told that I needed medication, but they couldn't give me medication, so I needed to go home to get that. And I was 18 months into my mission, and I felt relieved, but I also felt mad because it wasn't the

John Dehlin [02:25:11] two full years, basically. A year in Tijuana, right around. A year?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:25:16] Yes. A year in Tijuana.

John Dehlin [02:25:17] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:25:19] But I just couldn't take it. I just couldn't take it anymore to the point that I didn't care about the two years. And I said, okay, let's go. And I was sent home early from my mission.

John Dehlin [02:25:31] How. What do you think the average number of baptisms per companionship was during the time you were in Tijuana?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:25:38] Well, there was a period of time that I didn't have any baptisms for like, six or seven months.

John Dehlin [02:25:45] What about just for the rest of the mission?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:25:46] The rest? For the mission, it was one every

John Dehlin [02:25:50] three months on average for most missionaries.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:25:53] Oh, for me. But for other missionaries, it was like three per month.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] Three on average?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:26:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:26:01] Did you ever have missionaries that had 10amonth, or 15amonth or 20amonth before the pandemic? Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:26:08] In Tijuana and in Guatemala. So it was this pressure that people are baptizing, but I'm not. Does that mean that I don't have the spirit with me? And I just heard stories about conversions and how they get sealed in the temple. I wanted to see that, to experience that, but I couldn't even get people to go to church. So it was a very stressful time. And eventually I didn't care about that because it was taking a toll on me.

John Dehlin [02:26:46] Yeah, you were just not well.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:26:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:26:51] So you came home early after trying so hard to make it through.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:26:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:26:57] What was that like?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:26:59] Well, it was a relief.

John Dehlin [02:27:01] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:27:02] And luckily my friends and many people weren't paying attention, and they thought I served the full two years.

John Dehlin [02:27:12] And with COVID there was all sorts of weird stuff going on with people getting sent home and going back and visas not being approved. And if ever there were a time to end your mission a little bit early and have no one pay attention, it was during COVID Right?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:27:25] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:27:27] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:27:27] And in Tijuana, I met my wife.

John Dehlin [02:27:32] Oh.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:27:32] She was a sister missionary hermana. Yeah. So when I came back home, we reconnected, and like 10 months later, we got married. And I remember that I was. I was trying to follow my treatment, to keep the medication, to follow my assignments with my therapist, and I wanted to fix this. I didn't want to deal with anxiety. And I remember that when we got married, I started to feel high levels of anxiety again, and my psychiatrist stopped answering my. My texts, and I sort of forgot about it, and I fell into an anxiety rabbit hole again. And during this time, I found the updated Mormon digital content world, which now included Mormon stories, in the studio.

John Dehlin [02:28:56] This studio.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:28:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:58] Yeah. Because. Because when Covid happened, I had been doing all these thrive retreats and workshops, and then we were going to be doing a lot of that, but then Covid happened and all our events died. So I decided to turn this studio from a workshop. Like, I met Gerardo here in this room because he and Zach came to a retreat that we held with, like, 70 people in this room. But once we couldn't hold retreats anymore, I'm like, well, may as well just improve our video and audio quality. So we ended up setting this up and upping our YouTube game. And then with COVID that just. Our growth just exploded on, you know, on YouTube.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:29:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:43] When our audio and video quality improved.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:29:46] Yeah, yeah. This was. That was the first time I started to listen to more Mormon Stories episodes.

John Dehlin [02:29:53] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:29:55] And I just got a full picture of all things Mormon. You know, word, radio, battle, Faith Radio, Free Mormon, Mormonish Feel Real Ill, real

John Dehlin [02:30:12] Zephy on the shelf. Nemo, the Mormon.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:30:14] Yes. And it was when I had my faith crisis, there were, like, five channels. I talked about Mormonism.

John Dehlin [02:30:23] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:30:24] And now it was like, like, 1520.

Faith Crisis, Suicidal Thoughts, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:30:27] You mentioned Steven Pinegar and Mormonism with the Murph as well, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:30:31] Yes, yeah. Yes. I. I found them. I listened to their episodes. I thought they were interesting. And as an adult. Well, yeah, as an adult. A few years later, I. I sort of began to have a. A second faith crisis because I began to understand why some aspects were troubling. For example, when I was 14, I didn't think Helen Kimball was a big deal.

John Dehlin [02:31:03] A 36 year old marrying a 14 year old wasn't a big deal when you're 14 or 15.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:31:10] And as I grew older, I began to realize, oh, oh, okay, I see. And it was during this time that I saw many people online friends leaving the church. And I thought, well, they know about it. I'm not alone. I'm not crazy all of a sudden.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] You're not the only one.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:31:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:41] So I probably felt validating.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:31:43] Yeah, yeah, it felt validating because during the mission there was one elder, he was my companion and he was the only one I could talk about these topics with. And we would joke about it.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] Yeah. Wow.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:32:03] And. And it was, it was good. It was good to talk about these things, to know that you're not crazy and to have fun with it. So when I began to have those experiences, I began to understand that people aren't cool with the church. They're just transitioning. They're trying to figure out what to do with all of this, something that they have valued for so long and something that sometimes changes overnight. So I began to have much more sympathy for these experiences that people go through. And I thought, okay, I'm a believer. I don't think that changed. But I now see things differently. I now understand that some things are simply an issue and they can't be ignored. And I know that people feel like they are crazy. They feel alone, they feel like I failed either as a returned missionary, either as someone with faith crisis. And I thought, maybe we should share these stories for a Spanish speaking audience. And I said, well, maybe I could start sharing my story. And I contacted Murph from Mormonism with Murph and they said, hey, I have a story. Can you share it on your channel? And he said, sure. And that was the first interview I ever did with Murph.

John Dehlin [02:33:47] You were on his show?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:33:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] Oh, cool. We'll have Julia find the link to that. Yes.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:33:54] That was like three years ago. And that's when I thought I should start my own YouTube channel. And I did like two days later.

John Dehlin [02:34:04] What was it called?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:34:05] Viajes de Fe.

John Dehlin [02:34:07] And there was the Pequences Mormon. There was a Spanish speaking YouTube.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:34:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:34:14] Kind of ex Mormon show. And you had learned about that back when you were.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:34:18] Oh yes, I learned about him. But I thought the video production wasn't very good. So I. So I Didn't watch a lot of his videos, but I knew he was there.

John Dehlin [02:34:27] Okay, but you had better video, lighting, audio quality in your channel?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:34:33] Me?

John Dehlin [02:34:33] No, no.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:34:34] I was just using my phone and just hoping the lighting was good enough.

John Dehlin [02:34:38] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:34:40] And I started this, that channel three years ago.

John Dehlin [02:34:44] What was the intention of the channel?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:34:46] The intention was to. To talk about those topics. And for believing members who encountered that information feel they're not crazy for finding that information.

John Dehlin [02:35:00] Yeah, that was a big reason I started Mormon stories too.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:35:02] Yes, yes. And I just wanted people to know about those things. Not so much to expose the church or something like that, but to. It was very hard for me to imagine a way people could have faith without understanding the issues. I know that there are people who prefer not to, but it was hard for me to imagine how can someone not want to know? So I wanted to do that. And I knew that people hated anti Mormons and they would mention you and Bill Rail and sometimes people think, oh, Helen Mark Kimball, that's something that John Dolan talks about, so let's not talk about that. So I wanted to talk about Helen Mark Kimball. So people knew that those things aren't attached to you or to someone. They're just. It's just history.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] Yeah, history. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:36:18] And I wanted to do that. And I worked really hard the first year.

John Dehlin [02:36:24] Was it in Spanish or in English?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:36:26] In Spanish. Okay, in Spanish. And I. I tried to find my voice, how I wanted to approach those things. And at first I think I was very apologetic and simplistic and at this time my mental health just deep dived. And this time it had nothing to do with Mormonism. It was just life stuff. And it got to a point where I wanted to end my life. And not only saying, I wish I was dead, but how can I die?

John Dehlin [02:37:23] Planning.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:37:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:25] And just so I can. First of all, I'm really sorry. And second, was it just being a social media personality? Was it questioning your faith again? Was it like all the criticisms and negativity that comes with being a creator, Was it something else?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:37:43] It was this idea that it almost didn't matter what I did. Anxiety came with it.

John Dehlin [02:37:51] So it's anxiety.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:37:53] And I thought, if I'm going to feel like this forever, then I prefer to be dead because I had anxiety for school, anxiety for work, anxiety for a career, anxiety for work based results, making money. Like all those things caused me anxiety. And I thought, is it me? Am I weak? Why am I feeling this? And if I'm bound to feel this forever, then I don't want It.

John Dehlin [02:38:33] Even though you're on medications and sometimes seeing a therapist.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:38:37] Yeah. And again, my psychiatrist stopped answering my calls and my psychologist too, so I. So I. Oh, man.

John Dehlin [02:38:49] When you're. What do you do when your psychiatrist and your psychologist ghost you? That's not good. Yeah. Oh, man. I'm sorry.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:38:59] And I just remember the first time. The first time I really felt that I had made the choice to. To die. Felt very different because. Felt. It felt like. Like I was right all along for feeling that I wasn't good enough. That it was this confirmation that that existence was a mistake for me. And for some time, my fear of eternity was sort of something that kept me alive because if I died, I would either stop existing or go to

John Dehlin [02:39:58] the spirit world punished, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:40:01] Yeah. Well, not so much punished, but I would. I would exist forever, keep living. And that was. Was what was scary. Even if I died and stopped existing, that was scary as well. So neither option was scary.

John Dehlin [02:40:16] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:40:17] So that kept me. That sort of kept me alive in a sense. But. But at that point, I. I didn't care what option was true. And at the time, I had seen many friends and family die. And my uncle, the one who lived in. In Layton, he got cancer and. And he died.

John Dehlin [02:40:50] Dang.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:40:52] And I never got to say goodbye. And I actually appreciate being here because I'll be able to visit his grave. Just felt that people who I thought were very good people had died in ways that I thought were cruel. And that made me feel that there was no guarantee that I would be okay, that my life would turn out to be good. If there's ended in a way that I thought was unfair, what guarantee is there for me? So I thought, all right, I'll just go ahead and do it. I wrote a letter. I even planned the hymns that I wanted to be sung in my funeral. And how long.

John Dehlin [02:42:12] How long was this?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:42:13] This was two years ago. And.

John Dehlin [02:42:23] And you were married, right?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:42:26] Yeah. And I. I tried and couldn't go through with it. And that just. I don't know, that made me very desperate because I was so convinced that death was the only way to really end this anxiety. If it was not pornography, it was Joseph Smith, and if it wasn't Joseph Smith, it was the people online. If it wasn't that, it was a mission, if it wasn't that, it was family issues, if it wasn't that, it was school, if it wasn't that, it was work. So if I have to stay alive, then how do I escape this? And. Well, that specific aspect of my journey is Something that, well, I guess I still am working on. I now see a therapist who doesn't ghost me, as well as a psychiatrist. It is something that's a work in progress. But at the time, I was trying to find a healthy balance in my life, and I guess that's where my last, I don't know, faith evolution came. That brought me to where I am today. I, I began to see church issues as, as that, as history. So if Graham Young did something I, that happened, you know, I, I can change it. And I don't have to find meaning in it. I don't have to twist it in a way that makes him inspired in that choice. And if Spencer W. Kimball believed and thought and was very certain that masturbation led to homosexuality, that simply is not true. And, and, and that's it.

John Dehlin [02:45:21] So,

Gustavo Hernandez [02:45:23] so it was very freeing to, to see that and, and to understand that. That I'm. Yeah. That I don't have to create a narrative that fixes things that are outside of my control. And. It made me feel really, really good, really comfortable. And, and one might say, well, then what do you believe? If you don't believe that you have to defend Brigham Young, then do you believe he's a prophet or where you're at?

John Dehlin [02:46:20] And I assume this would extend to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham and polygamy as well, right?

Reading Church History and Reaching New Conclusions

Gustavo Hernandez [02:46:25] Yes, yes, to everything. Everything that, that falls within the realm of history. And I read John Turner, Benjamin Park. I really enjoyed reading them because. It is first and foremost to understand what happened before asking what that implies. It's just what happened. Like that's the most important thing. And there are things we, we know for a fact. There are things that we can only imagine sometimes. And, and I, at this time, I sort of stopped creating content because I realized that I wanted to sort of switch the type of content I was making. Not to be what maybe believing members would call anti Mormon content or just. But just that. Something that focuses on understanding ourselves and the people from the past and how we can do what they did right and condemn what was wrong and be very vocal about that. I became very passionate about the band, the priesthood band, and being very vocal that there was nothing whatsoever divine about that.

John Dehlin [02:48:03] You probably read Second Class Saints by Matt Harris.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:48:07] Yes. Yes. Because sometimes people say, well, it happened. Who knows why, but God inspired it. And now he said it's fine for everyone to have the priesthood, but when you see the timeline, when you see what happened year after year, you realize that they were just Guessing and assuming and being racist. And it was unnecessary baggage for a whole culture and something that still hurts us today. So I was very vocal about that. And I was called to be an institute teacher around this time, and I was assigned to teach foundations of the restoration. And it was fun because when we thought about the lesson on polygamy, I. Well, we only have like 15 minutes, but we talked about Fanny Alger, and I tried to read from saints and from church sources so they don't say that I'm twisting things. Right. And everyone was shocked. No one knew who Fanny Alger was. No one knew about that. Oliver Cowdery left the church in part because of that. And when I talked about the priesthood ban, I was also very clear that there was no reason behind the ban.

John Dehlin [02:49:45] I'm sure a lot of people liked that.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:49:47] Yeah. And I remember that one of the stake counselors, his son was taking my class, and he got a little mad because he said that he told his son. And it was the first time I heard someone say that in Mexico. He told his son, but it was. But they are the descendants of Cain, black people. Yes. And we had in our ward a family from Nigeria. And my friend said, so you're saying that this family is cursed because they are the descendants of Cain? And he said, yes. So that's why I feel really compelled to. To be vocal about those things. Because if we just assume that it was in the past and it doesn't matter, then those. Those things continue and can carry on and we can really learn. So. So that's where I'm at today. I would say that I'm a little. I'm a believing agnostic, meaning that in my second faith crisis, it wasn't so much faith crisis on the Mormon Church, it was a faith crisis on God. Because I read Bible scholarship and you learn about the storm God, El, you learn about the historical nation of Israel, that maybe there were seven tribes and then later 12 that the cities destroyed don't match the record, that God and El, they're a little similar, that the God of the Israelites is in a pantheon of many gods.

John Dehlin [02:52:03] And

Gustavo Hernandez [02:52:07] seeing that, like in Latin America, people are very faithful and believing God is. Well, of course he is real. But then I started to see, well, you're saying that the Abrahamic God is real, and you're saying that the God of the Bible, well, of the Old Testament, the true continuation is through Christianity. And you're assuming that. And I thought, well, maybe. Maybe this specific God is not as obviously the one true God. As I once thought. So I would say that I'm working through it at the moment. I. I do believe in a God. I do believe in a recent Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:53:17] And what was the word you said before Jesus?

Gustavo Hernandez [02:53:20] Risen. A resurrected Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:53:23] Oh, okay. Oh, risen. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. And so Jesus did resurrect.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:53:29] Okay, yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:29] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:53:31] And Joseph Smith, the son. Angel.

John Dehlin [02:53:36] Saw an angel.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:53:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:38] Not. Not God and Jesus necessarily.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:53:41] Oh, well, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [02:53:42] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:53:43] God and Jesus and. And Moroni.

John Dehlin [02:53:45] Okay, got it. Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:53:48] So that's my base for now. And I'm always open to. To see where life leads me. I don't see God as being obviously true because I see all these things. And if I'm going to say that the Book of Mormon has problems, I also want to be willing to say that the Bible has problems and its historicity and what that means for God existing. So I really don't feel stressed out about raising the priesthood. Miracle of forgiveness, because I don't feel that those things need to be excused in order for. For me to continue my faith journey. But I do feel the need to be very vocal about the things that. That hurt me. Not because I'm. I'm. Oh, pay attention to me. But because I know those things keep. Keep hurting other people. As an institute teacher, I saw many young men and women just feel. Go through what I went through, go for months on end without partaking of the sacrament. And all because a talk that was given in the 80s, a book that was written in the 80s, Doctrine on Salvation, Mormon doctrine. Those books are held as the Holy Grail and Mexico and. And people. Because prophets are never wrong, then those books will always be right, so those teachings will always continue.

John Dehlin [02:55:55] Some of those books were written in the 50s and 60s.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:55:58] Yes, yes. And as someone who's a Mormon, as someone who loves what it represents for me, I know that those things are hurtful and I need to be stopped. And again, I won't get into specifics, but I also know LGBTQ friends who have also felt suicidal. And my experience helped me to understand what that feels like. It helped me to understand what feeling broken feels like. You know, begging God to change who you are. Feeling like you're a disappointment, feeling that no matter what you do, you will always fall short. So I really feel. I really feel that I need to be vocal about the hurt that people go through, even if it's direct or indirect. Direct for a policy that's made 2015 policy, for example, or indirectly because people are being rude. Either way, I don't feel like I have to defend the church. For example, I think the lawsuit is obviously baloney.

John Dehlin [02:57:40] Oh, well, thank you very much.

Gustavo Hernandez [02:57:43] And I can very confidently say that it's wrong and stupid and a waste of money. And I don't feel scared because like I said, I, this is about people and this is about trying to, to do what's right and not so much allegiance to an organization. I'm a member, I'm wearing my garments right now. I have a temple recommend. So I guess I am still an active Mormon. I continue to have those base beliefs, but the only thing I care about is that people don't have to feel the pain that led me to think that my life was better if I was dead. And I just want people to know if they're struggling, that they're not alone and that life is worth living and that even in your darkest nights, there's always tomorrow. And I tell my story. Not to defend the church, not to attack it, not to put myself as some sort of idol. I was very hesitant at first to share my story because I didn't want people to place bets on my faith. Like on that Reddit post. I didn't want people to say, oh, he's so close to leave the church, let's give him a couple of years or he's never going to leave. And he's an example. I didn't want, I didn't want that.

John Dehlin [02:59:41] I don't, I hate that. I don't, I don't feel like I do that. I don't need to prognosticate about people's

Gustavo Hernandez [02:59:47] faith and, and some people just got mad when they knew that I would be coming here with you. So I don't know if they'll like the interview. I don't know if they'll watch it even. But, but I'm just here because I, Yeah. Because I don't want the 13 year olds to feel like they are a mistake. I don't want the early return missionaries to feel like they are not worthy of love. I don't want to feel, I don't want for those who feel suicidal that it is because you're not enough. Like, I just, I just want to share my story because I'm alive and I, and I want others to be alive.

John Dehlin [03:00:49] Man, I almost just want to end it there. That's really beautiful and really pure and well intentioned and powerful. I'm so glad you're willing to share and to provide visible, courageous support for people that need it. Especially when you have social anxiety.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:01:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:01:17] On the Internet, telling Your story on the Internet, not always what people with social anxiety feel called to do.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:01:25] So I got over public speaking anxiety. I don't feel very comfortable doing that.

John Dehlin [03:01:31] Oh good.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:01:32] So I don't have anxiety sharing the story.

Current Beliefs, World Religions, and the Restored Gospel

John Dehlin [03:01:38] There's only one just very broad question I even feel like I want to ask. I get, well, you've already said you believe in God and Jesus and the Joseph Smith had visitations and so like that answers a lot. And then you also said you don't have to excuse history and that answers a lot. If somebody is stuck on like yeah, but if the Book of Mormon wasn't what it claims to be or the Book of Abraham was it claims to be, or if Joseph Smith treasure digging or polygamy was evil or bad, then that, that infects Joseph Smith's credibility and makes it so you can't believe him, which then means you can't believe in Mormonism because that kind of takes down the founding prophet. How do you process that in a way that allows you to keep staying a member? And this isn't a gotcha. I literally want if there are going to be people that are happier and healthier or want to live or whatever because they can hang on to the gospel, guess what? I want them to have the gospel. So that's the only reason I'm asking you the question. So you can help people who are stuck on that have a possibility of maintaining belief if they want to.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:02:59] Yes, I think that I do see, well, the Book of Mormon as a record. So I don't. Because yes, if the Book of Mormon is fiction, then yes, I agree. I don't think there's a scenario that the church can say that it's good stories and keep its truth claims. I do believe that it needs to be something with at least some historicity. So what do I think about the anachronisms, the 19th century ideas? Well, I simply believe that Joseph was a key part of the wording. And I don't want to delve into an apologetic argument, but I talked to Jim Bennett and we translated the. Well, I'm still working on it. His reply to the CS letter. And as I translated it, I realized that many words changed many ideas. And as I had that experience, I felt comfortable enough seeing a similar process. And I understand that that answer doesn't answer everything, but I see the foundations of the restoration to be what happened to these 19th century people, meaning the witnesses, Joseph. And that sort of informs the Book of Mormon instead of the other way around. Sort of like Christianity, when people Talk about the resurrection before they talk about the storm, God, hell, and the problems with that. I see it like that. I know it's not. It doesn't answer every question. It does still leave issues, but that's how I see it currently.

John Dehlin [03:05:50] I mean, what it sounds like is just the idea that kind of like the catalyst theory with the Book of Abraham, that maybe the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham weren't translations of ancient records, but somehow Joseph channeled history or teachings mystically or spiritually, and that there's historical basis for the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon. Even if there may not have been plates, like we think of plates or papyri that said what we would expect them to have actually said in Egyptian. Is that fair? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:06:35] Well, I do think there were plates.

John Dehlin [03:06:38] Golden plates.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:06:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:39] Delivered by Moroni.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:06:40] Yes. Okay, so I believe that.

John Dehlin [03:06:44] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:06:47] So, yeah, I'm much more willing to. Well, not willing, but I do see the issues with the Book of Abraham and I do see it as different. What's the word? Well, yeah, different categories. They each have their own set of issues. But with the Book of Mormon, I do believe there were plates.

John Dehlin [03:07:18] And do you think of Joseph Smith's polygamy and Brigham Young's polygamy, like the Curse of Cain and the Priesthood band just kind of. They were wrong, or are you open on that?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:07:33] I'm open on polygamy, on the idea of the sealing, the linking and the echo of the Bible. I do think Joseph was sincere with that, but I think that it obviously had lots of issues and those issues don't have to be defended. Like Helen Mark Kimball, Even if Heather C. Kimball was the one who said, joseph, marry my daughter so we can be together. I think that it was very foolish to say yes in the first place. So I don't think that excuses it. So I'm open on the sincerity of a religious practice, but I don't think that it was really a good practice.

John Dehlin [03:08:27] Polygamy?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:08:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:08:28] Just as polygamy.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:08:30] Yes. And Brian Young. More so. And with Kane. Yeah. Completely wrong.

John Dehlin [03:08:39] Yeah. And like, things like LGBT people, same sex marriage. It sounds like you're okay with same sex marriage and LGBT love, Even committed love.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:08:56] Yes. Okay. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [03:08:58] Yeah. Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:08:59] Now that we. We understand the science behind it. I was recently reading Greg Prince's book. I forgot the name, but it's like LGBT and the Mormon Church, Gay rights in the Mormon Church. And he explains in two paragraphs the scientific reason that we have so far. And it's simply science, simply things that happened before we were born, and that's it. So why should that be wrong? And if God really thought that was evil, I think he would have made that much more clear. But I don't see an issue at all, especially when we. Especially when God isn't obviously real, as we think.

John Dehlin [03:09:57] God isn't.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:09:59] Oh, well, let me rephrase that. What I mean is when we say, for example, in the church that God has said that being gay is wrong, we're assuming that God is real. We're assuming that he was very clear about that, and we assume that that's written down somewhere and that that somewhere comes from God. So we're assuming a bunch of things to reach that conclusion. That's what I mean.

John Dehlin [03:10:34] Yeah. So it's a lot of assumptions that maybe we can't have certainty about, in your mind.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:10:42] Yes. Yes. And what we have certainty of is that it's a process that happens before we were even born.

John Dehlin [03:10:54] How do you make sense of other religious traditions in God?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:10:59] Actually, my second Institute course was the Restored Gospel and the World Religions. And so I tried to get every religious text that I could find. I read the Quran. I read an abridged version of the Mahabharata, which is a poem about the battle between two sets of cousins in India. And there is the God Vishnu. And it's a very interesting story. It's a poem that's like 10 books long, so I didn't read the whole version. And I studied Buddhism. And what I make of that is that I think there is divinity in us and questions that we all share and have across thousands of years. And I think that we as humans want answers. I do think that sometimes there are divine interventions that show us answers. And there are some times where we act to get those answers. So, for example, I see the resurrection of Jesus as a manifestation that gives us an answer. And then I see the rise of Christianity as choices we make to expand that. So that's how I see religions I don't see. I know that they are very linked to political power, especially in the past. Where. Well, this book. Right. I don't know if you can see it.

John Dehlin [03:13:15] Yeah. We can tell our listeners what book it is.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:13:19] It's called the Triumph of Christianity by Part Ehrman.

John Dehlin [03:13:23] Yeah, I just had Bart Ehrman on the podcast.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:13:25] Yes. He's a Bible scholar, and here he talks about how the Roman Empire didn't really. Well in the past. People didn't see politics and religion as separate. So there are things that have been done in the name of deity, of Jesus that have been terrible and have been selfish and political. So I believe that's wrong. But I believe the. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their religious sincerity. I do believe that people want answers and want to understand the world around them. So I don't have an issue with. With that existing. I don't understanding this. I also understand why it can be very selfish to say 17 million people on record in between the billions and billions of people that have existed. Only they are right. No. And everyone else for thousands and thousands of years have been wrong. That doesn't make a lot of sense. No. And. Oh. And I am one of those few. It just so happens that I'm chosen. So it opens my mind to understand the different religions. I don't want to believe that it was Jesus preparing them for his eventual coming. I just see it as expressions of divinity, of culture, and I don't have an issue with people believing those things. I think that as Mormons, we don't believe in hell, but we act as if we believe in hell, but we don't believe in hell. So I don't. And I also don't believe that the Kingdoms of Glory are meant to be sort of like, I'm rich, you're middle class. I do think they're meant to be real rewards that actually feel like rewards and blessings and of. And love from a God. So. So I don't think people are meant to be doomed. And I don't think. And, yeah, this is going to sound a bit heretical, but I don't think people need to be Mormon to be exalted in the way we understand it.

John Dehlin [03:16:22] Yeah. A couple really quick things. I'm gonna assume you don't like the way the church is handling child sexual abuse. Is that just.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:16:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:36] And like, that's all. It's money and all that. You're just. We don't have to get into it. But I'm assuming that goes along with the LGBT stuff and other things. He just.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:16:46] Yeah, yeah. It's one of the things that I. Yeah, done. Support.

John Dehlin [03:16:49] Okay. And then the one thing that I am a little bit struck by, not that you believe in gold plates or even that there's a historical basis for the Book of Mormon, but just as a Latino, as someone with native, you know, kind of more Native American heritage, I'm assuming that you don't come purely from Europe with your ancestry, that there's some indigenous ancestry, you know, in Your heritage. Just if you're aware of the mound builder myth and if you're aware of that, like Native Americans, Native Central Americans, Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, they have really rich, beautiful. They developed language, written language. Very few civilizations did that. Calendars, math, astronomy. So much of the food that we eat that we like, besides the gruel, came from Mexico and South America. Tomatoes and peppers and, you know, sweet potatoes. Just so many things. Like, such a rich heritage that kind of stands on its own. Some would say the Book of Mormon and its kind of twisting of the mound builder myth kind of cheapens, disrespects, and creates an artificial culture and heritage when the actual one is beautiful and powerful and inspiring. Again, I love your beliefs in the sense that they mean a lot to you and they are useful to you. That's one thing separate from truth claims that. I'm just curious what you do with that as a Latino. Basically, yes.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:18:35] Many Latino people feel the same way. That it cheapens the rich cultural, historical legacy.

John Dehlin [03:18:47] We have the Book of Mormon narrative.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:18:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:18:49] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:18:50] And I think a reason why I don't have a problem with that specifically is because I. I was always taught, even before we learned about. I learned about the criticisms before a fair Mormon. I was always taught that Aztecs were Aztecs and Mains were Mayus and Olmecs were Olmecs. I was never thought that they were Nephites.

John Dehlin [03:19:21] Okay, so you're kind of a small geography, Book of Mormon thing where the Book of Mormon, if it happened, it happened in a small area and it really didn't significantly affect surrounding larger cultures.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:19:37] Yes. I didn't know it was that at the time. You know, when I was a kid, I didn't think, oh, this is a limited geography model, of course.

John Dehlin [03:19:48] But although at 14, I. I wouldn't be surprised if you did.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:19:52] Well, maybe at 14. But yeah. When we learned about this in school and with my parents, it was always, oh, they had this God and this God and this God. And I wasn't taught to connect them to the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [03:20:16] Okay, so for you, the Inca, Aztec, Mayan, Olmec, North American tribes really have nothing to do with the Lamanites? Probably.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:20:27] Yeah, most likely.

John Dehlin [03:20:28] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:20:28] I know that in Mexico there's this thing called Stela 5. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's this stone, the Tree of life.

John Dehlin [03:20:39] Yeah. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:20:42] And people in Mexico City are, to this day believe that it is Lehigh. So I just.

John Dehlin [03:20:50] Mormons. Mormons too. Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:20:51] Yes. So I do see that cultural Appropriation.

John Dehlin [03:20:55] And you don't think that Stella is the tree of life?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:21:01] No. Even Mormon scholars in Mexico City disagree, because they know it is a different culture and it has nothing to do with it.

John Dehlin [03:21:12] Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Cool. Beautiful, man. Well, Gustavo, I, you know, it costs some money to fly you here from Mexico and put you up, and it is a big sacrifice for you to come over the weekend when you work. You have to go right back tomorrow and go back to work on Monday. Like, that's, you know, that's a lot. And I am so glad I did. It was it. I had high expectations, and it exceeded my expectations. What a beautiful. What a powerful story. And, you know, I'll just. I don't mean to bring it back to me and. Or the lawsuit, but, like, one of the most hurtful things about the lawsuit, and I hope Curt McConkey and David Jordan and the Mormon Church hears this. One of the most insulting things with this implication that we. I, are intentionally trying to deceive people into thinking that this podcast is run by the church so that we can cause them to lose their faith. I actually love and celebrate when Mormons find meaning and value in their belief. And I don't want and never have wanted to take people out of the church or. Or to take their belief away like you, at whatever point in your journey. I did feel like, wow, there's a lot of stuff I wish I'd been taught, and I think people deserve to learn stuff if they want to. And I know that that sometimes impacts faith, but that doesn't mean I want to take people's faith away. It just means I want people to be able to learn about and talk about things that they want to learn about and talk about things. And more importantly, with the Internet, they're going to discover things. And I don't want them feeling depressed or anxious or their lives blowing up or feeling like they want to die. And that's all why I started Mormon stories in 2005, and it's why I've continued it for 21 years, is for almost the identical reasons that you have and do and continue to do what you do. So that's what's hurtful. And so I'm just going to say that publicly. They'll probably never see it or care, but that's why I'm so glad you're here, because there are going to be people who want to believe, want to stay, are feeling alone, are feeling maybe even suicidal. Maybe they're feeling like they don't know how to Continue. And they're gonna watch your story and say, wow, I can do it now. Because I listened to Gustavo, and he helped me see that it's possible and gave me some ideas on how to do it. And they'll be inspired and their lives will be better for it, at least until they change. And we all change. Some people come back after they leave, like, I don't care. I just want people to be healthy and happy. And that's why I'm glad you're here, because I think your story is going to be useful for that. And I'm glad if it leads to that outcome. So thank you.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:24:08] No, no, thank you, John. Like I said, I know some people will discredit my story from the Mormon side because maybe I'm not really Mormon if I don't do this and that. And maybe. I mean, I don't think it will, but it could even get this sort of video breakdown from some channels of, oh, look how this Prague Mode does this and that. Like, I. I only wanted to do this because from my study of religions and history, I think that we can. We can do a lot together as humanity. Accepting the pain and offering support and seeing the good in everyone. I think that that's what gives me hope.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

John Dehlin [03:25:19] That's beautiful. This will be my last question, I think. Last time we flew a Mormon from Mexico here to this very studio. He was a bishop at the time we flew him here.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:25:31] Moroni.

John Dehlin [03:25:32] Yeah, Moroni. And on his way back home, he got a voicemail saying, you're being released. And I don't know if he's excommunicated or not, or at least I'm not prepared to talk about that. But, yeah, I imagine you have contemplated the fact that there's at least a slight possibility you could maybe be in trouble and. Or even be disciplined for coming on Mormon stories. You're smart enough to. Where I know you've probably contemplated that. How did you reconcile that possible risk?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:26:10] Well, I just don't care, because what did I do wrong?

John Dehlin [03:26:16] Yeah.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:26:17] So even if they do that,

John Dehlin [03:26:21] they're fine. Okay. Okay. Love it. Well, Gustavo, any. Any final thing you want to say before we end?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:26:34] Just read history. History is awesome. It teaches us. It teaches us what to keep doing, what to change. And it teaches us patterns about the way we think, the way we see the world. And it doesn't have to be scary, because the things that are real will continue to be real, and the things that are not real will never be real, even if we want it. So let's just Embrace what we can know and learn from it.

John Dehlin [03:27:12] Beautiful. Gustavo Hernandez from Mexico. Thank you so much for coming on Warm Stories and it's been a pleasure to meet you. Thank you. So thank you very much.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:27:23] No, thank you for the invitation. I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [03:27:26] And if people want to get a hold of you, how do they do it?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:27:29] Well, I still have my YouTube channel I haven't uploaded in a while.

John Dehlin [03:27:34] What's it called again?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:27:35] Viajesefe.

John Dehlin [03:27:37] Okay.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:27:37] In fact, I did a video on the lawsuit, but I never uploaded it because I don't have time to edit anymore. But if I get the chance to do something, I'll do it there. I want, like I said, I want to be very vocal about some topics, one of them being the priesthood Band. So I really want to do a documentary style video. I want to put some budget into it. So that will be coming eventually. I already have most of the script ready, so if someone's interested, they can find that there eventually. Or they can send me a DM on Instagram. You can find me Gustavo Hernandez or Facebook.

John Dehlin [03:28:21] Can people donate if they want to donate to support your work? Is There Venmo or PayPal or some way to Venmo or donate?

Gustavo Hernandez [03:28:28] Well, no, I. I don't have a Venmo. My PayPal isn't working. But let me know if you're interested and I'll see what I can do.

John Dehlin [03:28:39] Okay. All right. All right. Well, Gustavo Hernandez, thanks again for coming on Mormon Stories. Please stay in touch.

Gustavo Hernandez [03:28:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:49] All right. And thanks to everyone for joining us today. Thanks to Julie and Brooklyn for all they do behind the scenes to help make all this possible. Thanks to all the donors. We flew Gustavo out. We put him up. All that is with donor dollars. So thank you for everyone who makes all this possible. If you're not a donor and you want to see continue, you can go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor. You can also support us by subscribing to this channel. Liking it, commenting, sharing, all that stuff helps across all our platforms. Of course we're being sued. If you want to support our legal defense fund, you can go to mormonstories.org legal and become a monthly donor or a donor to our legal defense. And yeah, most importantly, we love your comments. So please comment on this episode again. Share it. You can email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with any questions or ideas. If you want to apply to be on Mormon Stories podcast like Gustavo did, all you got to do is fill out the application form@mormonstories.org apply record a three minute video and we're looking for people that have watched a lot of Mormon stories that have a good sense for our audience and have a good sense for how their story will be interesting to our audience who has watched a lot of our episodes. So if you think your story could be useful or interesting or compelling, if you're a good storyteller or have a good story, or both, please apply. And that's all we've got for you today. Thanks again for joining us. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Apply if you're from different countries, we want to have lots of countries represented. And also if you're a Seventh Day Adventist, if you were raised Seventh Day Adventist and left in adulthood, we're looking for at least 1/7 day Adventist that lived 30 or 40 or 50 years before they started to question their faith. Or if you're a super thoughtful, informed Seventh Day Adventist who wants to tell your version of being raised Seventh Day Adventist that's truthful and factual about the history. We're interested in that as well. Anyway, thanks for joining us today. Be good to each other, Be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.