Introduction to the Episode and Coverage

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 7, 2023 and today we are knee deep in coverage of the eight passengers Frankie family Jody Hildebrandt connections scandal to do a 20 second summary. The Mormon influencer family Frankie family who had a wildly successful YouTube channel called Eight Passengers Were Super Popular and also concerning to many viewers who felt like Ruby Frankie in particular the mom in the family was potentially mistreating and or abusing her children. As a part of her YouTube channel, she later teams with Mormon therapist approved church supported Mormon therapist Jodi Hildebrandt. And eventually Ruby Franke shuts down her eight passengers YouTube channel channel teams with Jod Hildebrandt of Connections fame, a therapist that was long has long been recommended by the Mormon Church and by Mormon bishops to treat mental health issues, marital issues, parenting issues, and most importantly, porn and masturbation issues as defined by the church. And when Ruby Franke and Jody Hildebrandt teamed up, they created a channel called I Believe Moms of Truth and started holding workshops and retreats and creating videos to help Mormons throughout the world improve their relationships and have better mental health and to get Mormon men specifically to stop looking at porn and masturbating. And then finally, just recently, two of Ruby Frakie's children were found in Jody Hildebrandt's basement basically being held, starved and tortured. And so now Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt are in prison. And for a long time, I'd say for at least four years, I have personally known victims of Jody Hildebrandt. They have come to me and told me that Jody Hildebrandt wrecked their marriage, wrecked their family, did a lot of damage. But I, you know, the few times that people reached out to me to tell me about Jody Hildebrandt, no one was willing to come on the air and talk about it. And so there was really no way that I could cover Jody Hildebrandt without risking, you know, defamation or whatever. So now that Jody Hildebrandt is in jail, a few courageous people have reached out and said that they feel safe enough now to tell their story. And one of those very courageous people is Jody Hildebrandt's niece, Jesse Hildebrandt. And if I could just read to you what, what Jesse sent me, a summary of what Jesse sent me. This will give you an indication of what we're going to be talking about today. Jesse wrote to me, it's hard to quantify the emotional and spiritual abuse and torture Jody Hildebrandt caused. And I think I'll probably have to do so anyways for the police. But physically, just to name a few, off the top of my head, I experienced being tied up, blindfolded, punched in the back my knees, kicked out and dragged by my hair upstairs. I was blindfolded and tied and thrown into a car and forced to lay down on the ground so I can't, quote, manipulate people into thinking anything is wrong. Close quote. Then drove into the mountains and forced to run up and down the mountain in the snow to, quote, force the sin out. Close quote. I was locked in isolation for up to 12 hours a day, only to be let out to use the restroom when she, quote, had time. Close quote. Between clients since she still had her therapist license mouth duct taped. I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone, even if they spoke to me directly. Directly. Food withheld, forced to run, forced to sleep outside in the snow, forced to drop out of school, never allowed privacy even when using the bathroom. 7 minutes to shower, 2 minutes to use the toilet with the door open. Wasn't allowed tampons because she was convinced I was a sex addict and masturbating with them. So if it's not obvious, I want to just give a content warning at the outset. Today's story is probably going to be unsettling and disturbing, although really important for those who want to understand not just Jody Hildebrandt in Connections and eight Passengers, but just unethical therapeutic techniques that frankly are all too prevalent in Mormon culture in Utah, in Idaho and Arizona, and I would add, in evangelical Christian culture and in most cultures, I would say, surrounding high demand religions. So that is the introduction today. I want to welcome everyone who's joining us on the live stream. We hope to take your questions and comments and without any further ado, I want to, with much reverence and respect, welcome Jesse Hildebrandt. They them Pronouns niece of Jody Hildebrandt onto Mormon Stories Podcast.

Introducing Jessi Hildebrandt

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:05:26] Hello. How are you?

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Good. Thank you so much for joining us, Jesse.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:05:30] Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Why Speaking Out Has Been Difficult

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Before we begin, I guess it might make sense for you to speak about maybe what is terrifying for you about this interview? What has kept you from speaking out until now? What family concerns you might have because we talked about this before we started the episode. And then finally, what made you decide to override your fears or risks or concerns to speak out today?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:06:00] Yeah, definitely. So one I've just been afraid of Jody. Jody is a terrifying, powerful, convincing person that has a lot of Influence. And a lot of people believe anything and everything that she says. She systematically destroyed my reputation and my credibility and kind of used previous problems that I was facing as a teenager, being angry and sad and angsty and capitalized on that as a reason that anything that I say is not true. And so. And because everything that happened was so, to a lot of people, so fantastical and so surreal that it's. I think it's easier for a lot of people to just be like, this is too complex. This is too complicated. I have my life to live. I can't really. I don't know what is true. So it's easier to just not. My family has been very unsupportive and invalidating in what. What happened. They. My parents were involved. They were aware to a degree. I don't think they understood the depths of abuse that were going on, but they trusted her and they trusted the church, and the church was very much involved. My bishop, Bishop Bangoter, knew what was happening and trusted Jody and everyone just trusted her that, you know, Jesus was, without any hyperbole, literally working through her. But my family is incredibly libertarian and very much subscribes to the idea of privacy being number one and has not wanted me to speak out. As for embarrassment for people misunderstanding, feeling misrepresented, but mostly just because they believe that this is. Everything had to be kept in the family. Everything is, you know, it's no one's business. And the issue that I take with that, and one of the reasons I was. I was telling you before, one of the reasons I wanted to speak out is for anyone that has experienced anything similar, any sort of abuse, not just psychological and physical abuse, but I mean, to this degree, like any form of abuse, abusers will want you to keep silent, and they will manipulate you into believing that you have to, either out of blackmail, out of fear, or out of internalized guilt and shame. And with, like my family, they. They believe that if I were to speak out, it would be a violation of their privacy. However, when you are. When someone abuses you, those people lose the right to their privacy because now it's mine. Now it's my story. Now it's your story. And you have every right. I have every right to. To talk about it. And it has to be, and I think it has to be talked about for any. Any sort of healing, individually or collectively. We have to talk about these types of things for anything to change.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Absolutely. Well, it's still of an act of courage to realize that by speaking out publicly on behalf of yourself and on behalf of potential victims elsewhere, not just of Jody, but just generally, it. It has the potential to really strain, harm, or even ruin family relationships. And so I just want to start by giving you join. Joining with our audience and thanking you, Jesse, for. For raising your voice and speaking out.

Growing Up Mormon and Early Life

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:10:27] Well, thank you for having a platform to do so. I really appreciate it, and I know that a lot of people appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] Well, thank you. Well, it's also important, I think, to mention that your story is a very Mormon story, so you very much fit as part of the program. Really quickly, is it okay if we just plug what you do and I tagged you on Instagram, but just tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do, because maybe when someone would first look at you, they would say that. That. Jesse, they can't have a Mormon background, right?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:11:05] No. I know. When people find out, they're typically pretty surprised. I tattoo. I'm a tattooer here in Seattle. I do American traditional. You can see some artwork back here. I'm a gym rat. I run. I'm a climber. I love art and music and culture, and I love to learn. And I'm kind of a grandma, honestly. Like, I am like a up at six in bed by 10, making sourdough bread kind of person. Like, very much a cottagecore goth, if you will. But, yeah, I grew up in the church. My family's still very much involved on all sides. Both of my parents come from large families, and pretty much everyone is still very much involved. And I was in it. I believed it real strong. Even when all this stuff was going on with Jody, which I think made it so much worse, is because I was internalizing it. I fully believed that this was God's will. And if I just put myself over to the. To the Lord, if I just prayed more, if I was more faithful, that all of this would end up being for good and that I. That I needed it. That I truly needed. Everything that Jody was doing, I deserved, and I needed it. So where did. I was.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] Where did you grow up, Jesse? Where did you grow up? And then kind of, what was your Mormon upbringing like, if you're able to share?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:12:53] Sure. So I was kind of split between Northern and Southern California. I grew up half in until I was like, eight in Gilroy, California, which is a little town outside of San Jose. And then when I was eight, we moved to Corona, California, so Riverside, Orange county area. And there. I don't know if a lot of people know this, but there are a lot of Mormons In Orange county and Riverside, there's so many Mormons in Southern. In Southern California. I grew up in a pretty orthodox family. Very, you know, no PG13 movies. You can only watch the living scripture shows on, on, on Sundays. Everything, you know, you fast every month. Modesty was super important. You know, no caffeine, no, we didn't drink. We didn't drink sodas. We didn't, you know, my mom was a stay at home mom. My dad worked. Very traditional family dynamic, which also plays a big role into the things that happened. The patriarchal familial structure.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] How many, how many siblings and where were you in the birth order?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:14:16] Yeah, I have two older brothers and a little sister, so there's four of us.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:14:21] Eldest daughter. You know, there's a whole bunch of stereotypes and things about that. And yeah, we, my, both my brothers serve missions. My dad served a mission. Two of my siblings are married, have children.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Temple. Temple. Temple marriages.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:14:42] Temple. Yeah, all temple marriages. Faithful, faithful people.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] Okay. And if you, if you had to think about your Mormon childhood, like preteen years, would you characterize it as relatively happy or not?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:15:03] Yeah, I would say so. Especially when we lived in Northern California.

John Dehlin [00:15:08] Very.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:15:08] My mom was very much the classic homemaker. Crafts cookies, cooked, you know, we like. It was very fun and involved in my, like, childhood. Things started shifting when I hit my preteens, like 12, 11, 12. A lot changed. Even a little bit younger than that, like fifth grade, everything kind of started shifting.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] How so?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:15:39] But yeah, before, I mean, this is not. I mean, I guess it kind of relates to the church because this person was in the church. I was just severely bullied and, and then that, you know, all the problems and issues that go along with that.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] And you were, you were bullied by like a fellow member of your ward?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:16:03] Yeah, my best friend, actually. She. Female dynamics are very, very strange and very complicated. And bullying in that way was really, it's very psychological. And so there were a lot of like, psychological things going on that also that people were aware of and did nothing, which is going to be a very common theme in this story of put my blinders on, not my problem, or hopes and prayers, God will sort it out.

Mental Health Struggles and Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Okay, so things started going south for maybe your mental health with that bullying experience in fifth grade. How did things progress into your teen years?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:16:55] So I was always very, I was very. I've always been a very curious person and always, I think, very challenging in that way, especially to my mom. My mom is very docile, sweet, obedient, very efficient housewife. You Know, like, everything was always very clean and very organized and very efficient. And I just, I think I was like kind of a wrecking ball to them. Always asking why about everything, Nothing, no answer was good enough. And it wasn't coming from a place of disrespect. It was, it was genuinely, I didn't understand and I was very curious about things. I also had undiagnosed ADHD that didn't get diagnosed until I was like, was around 18. And so that definitely played a role in who I am and who I was. But yeah, so that turned. I was like the artist of the family, the musician of the family. My family is very sports oriented. My dad was a lawyer. And the three, the three things that my family connect on are politics, religion and sports. And if you do not fall into those categories, you're going to have a very or like in like a commonality in those categories, you're going to have a very hard time connecting with them. And I wanted to do art and music and it was, I think, very confusing to my family or just not taken very seriously because my family was very much like, you need to pick a sport so you can play sports in college and get your college tuition paid for. Music's fine, but like, what are you doing? Like, art's cute, but like, what are you doing? Like, this isn't a real thing. Which I think is a very common experience for arts, for people in the arts. Just people not taking it seriously, which they. Now that I have a career making art and like a viable career that has shifted a little bit, they like, I, it's. I think it still very much confuses them that I can have, I can make a living tattooing. Like my dad, I remember years ago, like when it first, when I first started doing it, he was just like, are there enough people getting tattoos that you can just keep doing this? And I'm like, yeah, you need to like maybe step into the world a little bit more. Just that's how like a lot of the world is. So in, in high school, I was in multiple band periods and I did percussion and drumline and took art, but didn't really ever identify as an, as an artist until my mid-20s. Yeah, I was very, always pushing limits with modesty and not in like a revealing sort of way, but in like a. I was wearing. Would wear, I would like wear crazy makeup, but I would do it at school because I wasn't allowed to do it. So I do it at school and wash it off before I came home and I Was doing crazy things with style and hair. And I was just like a weird art kid. And I think it really scared my parents, specifically my mom. I think the, the correlation of art and marijuana was very strong in her mind. And I think she was really afraid that I was just going to start doing drugs, which I didn't, I didn't smoke weed until, like, I was basically an adult. Like, I had never, I was giving out Book of Mormons at school. Like, I was such a square. I didn't, I. The only times I'd ever sworn were accidental and I cried like I was a square, totally. But, yeah, but I was, I was angry and I was, I would push back and I would question things. And anyone that is from an orthodox, high demand religion knows that that's not okay. Asking questions, especially maybe higher, esoteric, unanswerable questions or questions that, you know, point out skeletons, you know, you know, why weren't black people allowed to have the priesthood? Why weren't they allowed to be at the church? Why? What about sexism? What about race? Like, you know, those types of questions you don't answer, you don't talk about. And then also I was, because I was so. I don't know if I mentioned this on air, but by the time I was 16, I had read the Book of Mormon like six times. Like, I was, I believed it. I was reading, you know, books like Jesus the Christ. I don't know if I was really understanding them. I thought I would. I mean, I was reading that like at 13.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] That's pretty, that's pretty precocious.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:22:16] I was a really strange little kid. I wanted to be an adult so bad as a little kid. And I think a lot of that was rooted in because my family connects on politics, religion and sports. I was, I was like, okay, well, I, like, I want to, I'll focus on religion and this will get me an in with my dad or this will get me a connection with my, my mom or like, so I very much, I think I learned, like it was nurture and nature. I think I had a natural, I was naturally inclined to go that way. But I also was just like, that was how you got attention from my dad, was you either, you either talked about politics. I would listen to like Rush Limbaugh with him. Like, I would listen to like talk radio as like a seven year old. Yeah, it was a very, it was a very serious household in a lot of ways.

Religious Devotion, Doubt, and Scrupulosity

John Dehlin [00:23:19] But it sounds like even though you had doubts and questions, you were very, very devout, Extremely devout, almost to the point of what we call scrupulosity, which is just hyper intense, almost ocd, like religiosity because very, very, you know, I, I was a super devout seminary president Mormon, and I had only read the Book of Mormon once by the time I graduated from high school. And I certainly wasn't reading James E. Talmage is Jesus the Christ. So you were, you had it at 11, as they say, you had it dialed up to 11.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:23:53] So when I, in my head it was, this is true. Like, my logic wasn't, you know, my logic was backwards. I started with the belief or the. I was like, this is true, so I will find evidence to support it instead of like following the evidence to the eventual truth. Yeah, but, but I also, yeah, I was like a total nerd. And I look and I. And again, like adhd, this was like a hyper fixation, I think. And then the, the layer of familial acceptance, it's very powerful. It's a very powerful thing. Like even from like an evolution standpoint, like tribalism, like acceptance to your tribe and is survival. And so I very much, I think that was a big reason I leaned so hard into it. But yeah, I, even with questioning it, like, I would find incongruities and timelines between the Bible and the Book of Mormon of like when certain people came over from Jerusalem and I was like, oh, this doesn't actually line up. And like, and I'm sure also like, my mom was probably just like, what the heck? Like, you're weird. Like, you're a weird kid. Like, go play with dolls. And I was like, nah, I'm good, I'll read this. And she didn't have the answers and because no one did because, you know, my parents, my mom especially, and I keep referring to my mom individually because that's the person I, I think a lot of people in like these traditional structures, the mom is the touch point. Like, I didn't have, I don't have, I didn't. And I don't have a relationship with my father. Like, as a kid I could, I could like count on my hands how many times he spoke to me directly. Like he was this looming presence that was there but not really there.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Your. Your dad?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:25:54] Yeah, yeah, my dad. My, my dad is a. Yeah, I, he was just not really. He wasn't involved in any sort of way, like directly in my life. I know that he. That's not the case for my siblings. My siblings have a very different relationship with my father. But again, it's like going back to those Three touch points, those three ways of connecting it. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't choose sports. And my dad was always like a coach for sports, so that was like a way of connecting. I didn't choose my. My eldest brother also is probably more similar to me in that regard of like, more artsy, less sports oriented. But he. My brother's a genius, like an actual, like Mensa level genius, was building computers as like a 12 year old and helped my dad's business. So he. They had that connection. And then my other two siblings had the connection of sports to like solidify their relationships. And I think, again, like, I was emotional, I was strong willed. I was, I questioned everything. And neither one of my parents, I think, knew what to do with that. And they were not prepared because of the culture of the church.

Family Connection to Jodi Hildebrandt

John Dehlin [00:27:18] Jesse, if it's okay to ask, you know, we should just maybe state what for some will be obvious. Your dad is brothers with Jody Hildebrandt, so.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:27:30] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] So your dad and Jody would have grown up together. Are you able to share anything? And we are not asking you to tell someone else's story. We're not asking you to share anything you're uncomfortable sharing. Is there anything you can share about your dad and Jody Hildebrandt's upbringing that you think might shed light on what appears to be some very distant fathering on your dad's part with you? But we all know about the problematic behavior now of Jody. So is there anything about their upbringing that you think is noteworthy that you're comfortable sharing?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:28:12] Sure. I mean, I had a really, really close relationship with their father, with my grandfather Jay, and they had a pretty wild childhood. I mean, my dad is the eldest of seven, so he was born in 1960. My grandpa was a colonel in the Air Force. They ended up. They lived in Tripoli in North Africa for a number of years. And I also want to say, like, the grandfather that I, that I had was not the father they had. And I, and I know that, like, the person that I knew was a soft little marshmallow man like that read Shakespeare. I am certain that's not the experience they had. But yeah, my grandfather was a military man. My grandmother was a force to reckon with. She not, I would say, in my experience, as from, As a granddaughter, not maternal in any way, shape or form. Hard, hard woman, 5 foot 10, 5 foot 11, tiny powerhouse of a woman. Terrifying my father's brother. There was a death, a sibling death that happened. And I know that that had a very immense emotional toll on My grandfather and my grandmother. But my dad and Jody are very. They're pretty far apart in age. So I don't even know how much of their childhood, like, how much crossover there was, because Jody, I think, is the youngest or second youngest. I can't remember if Roman or Jody is the youngest, but there was a pretty big age gap. I don't know about Jody's childhood. She would say things, but again, I don't know what is true or what isn't true. She made really wild claims about siblings, about my grandfather, about my grandparents, from what I understand, fostered children from the Navajo tribe when they. Because they lived in Arizona for a long time. She made claims about the children that they fostered. But Jody started. From what I understand, Jody started this whole process of destroying people's lives, I think very young. I know that she, like, was trying to ruin someone's, like, a teacher's life. And again, this is really hard. I don't know if there was truth to this, but I think she was, like, trying to get a teacher fired when she was in high school, and she tried to. She got her therapist's license taken away. And I don't know if there, like, if it started out as truth, as like, she was doing something that. That needed to be done, and then that spiraled into what she's doing now, or if this has been, like, this type of behavior from the beginning? I don't know.

Jodi's Background and Childhood

John Dehlin [00:31:37] From what you know, did Jody have a normal teen? Were. Were. Were Jody and your dad raised in Southern California? Was it in Utah?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:31:47] And.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] And was there anything disturbing or troubling or abnormal about Jody's teen or young adult years that you're aware of? There's. There are speculations about her that I don't necessarily want to feed, but do you think she had a normal developmental Mormon childhood and young adult years, or do you know anything about that that you are able to share?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:32:12] I don't. I don't really know a lot. I know that something that my grandfather told me because I lived with him, I lived with my grandparents alongside living with Jody in the beginning, when I first moved, when I was first left in Utah, and my grandfather was also my 8th grade English teacher. And so I've always had a really close relationship with him. He told me that if he could redo the way he raised his daughters, he would, and that he felt like I was like a redemption for that. This is before the abuse got really bad. So I don't. I think he would probably not agree with that anymore. He's. He passed away a number of years ago, but I don't. I don't think so. She was a basketball player. She was like a really good basketball player. I don't think she had a lot of friends. I think that she. I think. Yeah, I don't. I. I don't know if she had a lot of friends, but, um, nothing. I don't think anything abnormal. She was raised in Tucson, Arizona, from. I think that's like the only place that she lived at that point. My grandfather, I believe, was working in prisons. He taught in prisons for a long time. He helps inmates get GEDs, and he taught like, woodwork and he was like a Shakespearean, so he loved Shakespeare, so he would teach poetry and Shakespeare to inmates. I believe that's what he was doing at that time. I could be wrong, but I think that's what was going on.

Jodi's Sexuality and Identity Questions

John Dehlin [00:33:56] So this question is probably going to sound out of left field for some people, but I think I feel okay asking it basically whenever. It's well established that Jodi Hildebrandt has used a lot of homophobic, anti lgbt, almost hate speech in her therapeutic practices. And then you combine that with reports of how she treated men, specifically in. In her therapy practices, and then you combine that with the information that she apparently has a real history of dual relationships and inappropriate relationships with the women in the couples that she's counseled. There's a lot of wondering whether a lot of her unethical therapeutic practices stem from some sort of repressed same sex sexuality, which we are. We are LGBTQ affirming on Mormon Stories podcast. But I think it's fair. When you see so much hatred towards the LGBTQ community, sometimes that is actually just repressed, you know, same sex sexuality. Is there anything you. Any information you have about that, or is that just purely something you can't speak to really?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:35:29] I can't really speak to it. It's something that. I mean, I thought. It's all speculation.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Yeah. Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:35:36] I've thought that since I was a kid that.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] What?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:35:40] That potentially she was queer.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:35:43] And I am queer, so I am. I'm for it. I think it's great. It's real great. Waters are warm and I. But I have no idea. She did, she did say something to me when I was living with her that was very strange because I've known I was queer since I was like seven and it was like experimenting with. With girls and friends since I was seven or eight. And that was. She knew about that and it was very bad. It was Very evil. But then she said something to me. She had this friend, her name's Bev. She. She said something to the effect of, yes, being gay is evil and, you know, pleasures of the flesh and yada yada, but if I were to have sexual relationships with my friends, if we were to, like, it would be different because there's a deep emotional connection there and that's different. And like, like we were sitting in someone's living room and she said this, and I was just like, what? Yeah, that's called being gay. Like, what do you think gay relationships are like? They are emotional and deep and connective and. Yeah, so she did that. That is something that she said to me, I think. I mean, other people were there. I don't know. I don't remember who was there, but that's the closest thing I've ever had where she admitted out loud to anything.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Really quickly. Jesse, would you mind just really quickly expressing or describing your gender identity? There are people misgendering you, and I may have done it myself in the introduction. So would you mind if you're comfortable sharing your gender identity, your pronouns, and just because there are people misgendering you in the comments, and I think that's important to address.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:37:49] Yeah, I mean, I use they. Them pronouns. I identify as non binary. Gender identity is complicated and complex, and I believe gender is a social construct. Gender is separate from sex. Like the sex of someone. I think that they're. There are certain terms that I use, like, biologically, Like I'm biologically female. I know that. And there are certain, like, conditional or like, experiences, culturally cultural experiences that are specific to the female experience. Like, so I, when I reference, like, being raised, like, all, like, as I was raised, I was conditioned female. And so all of the experiences are within that scope. I, I just love it when people try. I know that people slip up, I slip up. But it's, it's more of the, the. The. The respect of, of trying and correcting and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] Okay. Thank you for being willing to educate us. That shouldn't be your job, but, but we appreciate it. Okay, so maybe let's start getting into how you're. Your Mormon life went sideways and then how Jody comes into play. If you're comfortable going there.

Being Sent to Live in Utah

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:39:11] Yeah. What. What would do you want me to just start or.

John Dehlin [00:39:15] Yeah, yeah, jump right in. Yeah. Where did things start to. Where did your, where did your Mormon dream start to go sideways? That led to Jody. Jody's involvement. Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:39:25] Yes. Okay. So When I was 15, my mental health was. I was really struggling. I was struggling with my relationship with my father. I was struggling with self hatred. I knew I was gay, I knew that I was queer. That was a huge part of my internalized shame.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Really quickly, just around what year is this? Just because I like timelines, it helps me. So

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:39:54] 2009.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] Okay. Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:39:57] 2008, 2009. Okay. I'm a sophomore in high school and I am very sad and I'm very angry and I started getting into a lot of really intense fights with my family. And I was, I was making, not, not intentionally making it, but I was again, my family. My, my, my. The, the culture in my family is to pretend like everything is fine when it's not. So like for an example, I would get into a fight with my mom about something and instead of engaging and coming to a solution or problem solving, my mom would go up into her room, lock herself in her room for a few hours, come back down, act like nothing happened, make dinner. And it was just like, like you just like blinders on cannot handle conflict. Conflict is just absolutely not anger, Absolutely not anything. Like intense emotions. Absolutely not. And so I was this very sensitive, very emotional teenager that needed to be seen and heard and acknowledged. And so things were going, things were really tough. I started running away when I was 15, maybe at the cusp of 16. And I know it scared my parents, at least my mother at that point. I don't, I didn't have any real connection with my dad. I don't know what he was feeling or thinking. I don't know what he feels or thinks about most things. And so I believe it was in June, maybe May, I can't remember. My grandparents had their 50th wedding anniversary at this time I was living in Corona, California. My grandparents lived in Linden, Utah. Jody lived in American Fork. They had a 50th wedding anniversary party and we were staying at Jody's in American Fork. We were only supposed to be there like three days, I believe like a very short trip. We drove out, we were going to drive back. I get into a big fight. And at the time I also want to say I was dating a 21 year old returned missionary, which in hindsight is just horrifying. Like no, why would a six. That's just bizarre. But I think it's also very common that as long as he's an rm, it's like they don't know. And really it's like this is great. This is like all we could ever have asked for is that my daughter is dating an RM. So I was dating a 21 year old and I was angsty and annoyed. I was vegetarian at the time. The dinner that everyone ate was meat. I was in charge of dishes. I felt like that was unfair because I didn't eat any of it and I was putting up a fight. I feel like that's a very normal, annoying, bratty teenager thing to do. I go downstairs, I get into fight with mom. I go downstairs, lock myself in the basement with. With her phone because she had taken my phone away. So I took my mom's phone because I wanted to text my boyfriend. And I don't really know what the conversation was that was had. This is so. This is hours later. It's 10 o' clock at night, 11 o' clock at night, maybe even later. All I know is that Jody and my parents had a conversation. Jody told them to leave me with them. I mean me to like to leave me with. With her. And for them to just go and to not say anything and to just pack up the things and just go. And so a few hours later, I get a knock on the door. I was asleep. It was Jody and my grandparents telling me that my family had left and I wasn't going with them and that my life was about to change pretty dramatically. I still remember that moment as just. It's completely galvanized itself into. Onto my soul. It was. You know, in movies when they do the, like, they zoom in and pull out at the same time. It was like that's that really wild kind of effect. That's how it felt. And yeah, everything, everything changed in that moment. And then in the beginning, the restrictions were lighter, but everything was revolved around my worth. So anything that gave me a sense of worth, I was not allowed to have anymore. I had really long, long hair that I loved. Had to cut it all off because it gave me a sense of worth. Going to school gave me a sense of worth. Not allowed to do it. I was homeschooled for, I think about half a semester until I was not allowed to go to school at all. And I was very good at school and I really liked school. But again, anything that gave me a sense of value or a sense of worth, I wasn't allowed to do because it was ego and it was bad and it was distraction for like, from the. The darkness that was inside me, the shame. And it's so deeply darkly ironic that her whole thing is about shame. Like her whole therapeutic modality is like contingent upon this idea that shame is so bad and evil and that's what's causing this like, issue, like mental illness and the issues of your soul. It's just if it wasn't so horrible, it would be funny really, really quickly,

John Dehlin [00:45:49] Jesse, if you don't mind, like. So it sounds like your parents dropped you off in Utah and said your grandpa slash aunt are gonna take over parenting you and we're going back home. Did I get that right or am I a misunderstanding?

Abandoned by Parents at Grandparents' Home

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:46:09] This was not on the agenda. So we were there for my grandparents 50th wedding anniversary from Orange County.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] From Orange county, right?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:46:17] Yeah, from Corona.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:46:18] And they didn't tell me they were leaving? No, no, Nothing was communicated to me that they were leaving. I was left in the middle of the night with Jody and my grandparents.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] And Jody was living. Jody was living with your grandparents at that point or.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:46:38] Jody had a home in American Fork. Jody was a very successful therapist at this time.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] Was Jody married at the time or divorced by then?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:46:47] Jody was divorced. Jody was only married from what I understand, for about a year and a half and very much divorced at this point.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] And, And Jody had had one child with her ex husband. And what's that?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:47:07] She had two children.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Two children in a year and a half?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:47:10] Yeah, she, from what I understand, she was pregnant with her second when the divorce started. I don't, and I, and I've, I've heard different things about how long that divorce took. I heard it was dragged out for years, but I, I, that is spec. I don't actually know.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] No, I, I've, I have heard that Jody tried to dis. This may be strong words, but that Jody tried to destroy her ex husband.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:47:35] Oh, 100%.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] Through the legal system.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:47:39] Through the legal system and through the church. She tried to have him excommunicated. She tried to have his temple recommend taken away. She said horrendous things about him. And I mean, she, she, it sucks because it's like, yeah, we want to believe women. We want to believe abuse, of course. And like, as a victim of abuse, I want to be believed, of course. And Jody's ex husband, I don't know him personally, but Alex, her daughter and I are, we've kept in contact over the years. She has a beautiful relationship with him. Loves him to death. He loves her. There's. He's so supportive. So kind of really helped Alex through her own process. And Alex, this is like further down the timeline, but Alex left about a year after I did the church. And so, no, no, she's still a member, but left. Jody's.

John Dehlin [00:48:45] Okay, okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:48:46] She, she left Jody's Care about a year after I did has nothing to do with her mother. Changed her name, has no contact with her. Alex is. Has worked so hard to build a beautiful life for herself. I know we've chatted since all of this happened, and I know that she doesn't feel super comfortable coming forward. She has a family and Jody, she doesn't want Jody to have any more control over her life. And so. So, yeah, so Jody divorced, tried to destroy her ex husband. She was living in American Fork in this massive home about two blocks down from the temple. Both of her kids were living with her and me.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] Okay. And I guess I just can't imagine the heartache. I mean, when you think about a family dropping you off with grandma and grandma, grandpa and aunt without any notice and then just almost abandoning, maybe fully abandoning their child. Like, I think, what the kid's into heroin. The kid has had multiple teenage pregnancies. But even then, you talk to the kid, you get therapists involved, you know, you get consent of the child. You know, you try and make sure the child would. Would be okay or even want to have a massive change in living arrangements. I guess I would just ask, how did that feel? And have you. Was there, like. I'm just trying to imagine how extreme it must have felt for your parents to make such an extreme decision. And was there anything that merited that?

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:50:49] I know it's. Well, again, this goes back to this culture, my familial culture of pretend like, everything is okay. And that was the. That was the. Because of. The punishments were always so extreme in my family to things that, like, when I compared it to, like, things my friends were doing that would just get little slaps on the wrist. Like, I got grounded for three months for having a MySpace. And I'm certain my parents would correct me and say, no, you were grounded for three months because you lied about having a MySpace. But that, that is like, I was grounded constantly. I was. Anything that would like. The thing that the Mormon Church. One of the things that's so tricky about it, and especially when you're leaving the Mormon Church or any sort of, like, orthodox religion, is that your barometer for right and wrong is so skewed, distorted. When it's so distorted, where having a MySpace, having a. Drinking a coffee, murder, sex, like, there. There's. It's. It's so black and white, and there's not a hierarchy of, like, maybe this is worse than this, like, everything. And then that was just exponentially worse with Jodie, where there is only good and Evil. There's no in between. And most things fall into the category of evil. But that was, like, the thing that Jodi is so good at is that she's so good at seeing her victims, like, using what's there already. So she saw me as an angry teenager, and so she. She. She's like, I could use this. You know, like, oh, you're angry because you're evil. You're. You're sad because you have so much sin inside of you. Oh, you. You've kissed girls. Oh, my God. You are just Satan himself. And I. And I. I don't say this hyperbolically. Like, she genuinely believed, literally believed that Satan was working through me.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Your mom. Your mom.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:53:08] My aunt. My aunt.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] Oh, Jody.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:53:10] Okay. And she literally believed that Jesus was working through her and that she was fighting Satan on a daily basis, not just with me, but also with her clients. And she would tell me that all the time that these men that she was talking, but specifically the men that she was combating Satan on Earth every day. And then that was like, you know, and I. Again, I believed all of this, so I was like, wow. Like, my aunt's powerful. Like, she's fighting Satan.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:53:46] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] And this. This is, as far as I understand it, over the past 20, 30 years, the most recommended therapist in the Wasatch front by the Mormon Church, because every single person that's reached out to me to tell a horrific story says that it was their bishop that recommended Jodi Hildebrandt, because Jodi must have been on a list. And Jodi would always begin her engagements with clients, Mormon clients, saying that she had direct relationships with Mormon apostles, that she was influential in the church developing its mental health programs.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:54:20] So she's been very involved. She. She had a meeting. I don't remember what apostle, but she went into this meeting.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] Her.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:54:30] Her story. I don't. She just told this to. To people like my grandparents, and I going in, like, banging on his desk, talking about the. The. The evil. Not just the evils of pornography, but the. The destruction, the destructive nature of shame, which is just so. So ironic. But. Yeah, no, she's been very. Like, this is like. This is crazy thinking about it now. I used to do her social media. Oh, no, I did her billing. And. And she would bill the church. And so, like, every client, essentially, I would say, like. Like the vast majority of her clients were from bishop recommendations just based off of the billing that I would. That I would do for her.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Because in the Mormon Church, if somebody can't afford a therapist tithes and offerings might be used by the bishop, who recommends, you know, his. His ward members to Jody. He would. He would then foot the bill. So the church was funded. So the Mormon Church was funding Jody Hildebrandt's wealth and success and power.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:55:47] And the church knew. At least my local ward, Bishop Bangoter, knew what was happening. And this is getting a little ahead of the story, but people in the church, in my ward started becoming very nervous about what was going on. They were becoming very concerned with just my physical, like, what I was looking like in the church. And they would go. They went to Bishop Vengeter and voiced their concern about, like, they're like, something is wrong. And Bishop went to Jody and told her.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Her.

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:56:28] Gave her the names of these people, and. She would have what she did. I had to. The reason why these people thought I was. Anything was wrong, according to her, was because I was emotionally manipulating them into thinking that I would go to church and wear a long face and manipulate them into feeling sorry for me. Which was a very common theme about, like, through the entire process of living with Jody was if someone liked me, if someone felt sorry for me, it was all because of manipulation. And I was a masterful manipulator. Constantly. I was told this constantly to the point where, I mean, I believed it. I was like, you're right, I must be this horrific. And I was already believing I was evil because I was gay. And so, like, she plays into things that are already there. She finds the hot point and then drills into it, and she. She does this. I almost guarantee anyone that comes forward with a story about Jody, this is what she did. And so she. I had to go around. We drove to all these people's homes, and she would sit. She sat me in the car. She told me exactly what I was going to say to these people. She coached me on every word. And I would go in and I would have to apologize to them for manipulating them into thinking that something was wrong and that Jody was actually saving my life and that I. That God was. You know, this was all brought because of prayer and revelation and visions and dreams and that Jesus was. And it sounds ridiculous to say now, but at the time, it's like I said, like, Jesus is working here. And the way she would describe it to me, because she would talk to me a lot about what was happening and why she was doing it

John Dehlin [00:58:30] in

Jessi Hildebrandt [00:58:31] very, very abusive ways. But she would say, like, we have to do these extreme things because this is. This is spiritual surgery. And that's how she would Rationalize it is that it has to be extreme because we are surgically removing the sin. We're surgically removing the sin from your soul. We're surgically removing Satan from you. And so I would, I would go to house to house. She would tell me exactly what to say. She was in the room. If I would deviate at all from the script, she'd be like. And she would pull me back and then I would be like, I'm sorry, I just tried to manipulate you in this moment because if I deviated, that was manipulation. And yeah, Bishop Bangerter gave her that information. Just. I had meetings with the bishop, with Jody. Bishop Bangerter had horses and he likened me to a horse that needed to be broken. It was very involved.

Family Secrecy and Coming Out

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Jesse, really quick, so is that. Thank you. And I don't mean to interrupt as I'm trying to make sense of just. I'm still stuck on your parents dropping you off. Did they know that you had had queer experiences? And do you think that was like the, the tipping point? Did your parents know you had experimented, you know, in that way? And do you think that was maybe what tipped the balance? Or did they not know?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:00:01] This is the thing is that my family is so private and they pretend like nothing is wrong. Always is. They don't talk to me. They, they would not. My mom would not talk to me, my dad would not talk to me. And it was maddening. And so I don't know what, like, like other than just me being angry and getting into fights with them, I don't know what tipped the scales. But also, if you've ever interacted with Jody, you know how convincing she is. Like, I'm certain. My mom was just like at her wits end. She didn't know what to do. And Jodi was just like, don't worry, I have this. I'm a professional. I'm their aunt. So naturally I love them and I want the best for them. Also, the church recommends me. I know what I'm doing. Which is ethically so inappropriate for a client to be living with their therapist. That is so unbelievably unethical. When I've talked to my therapists about this, they're like, I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. If my niece needed therapy, I would recommend someone. I would recommend a program if they needed that program. But Jody also was convinced that I was a drug addict. She was convinced I was a sex addict. She was convinced that I had had abortions. She was convinced that I, she. She was Convinced of so many insane beliefs. Like, and, and she would. I know I mentioned this on, like, text. She would. She would rationalize and validate these types of behaviors through dreams and visions. She would have these dreams that God came to her and told her that I had had an abortion. And so no matter what I said, I was a liar. And then that. And also she was convinced that every word that came out of my mouth was a lie. And that, you know, gave her rationale to put duct tape on my mouth. And that's why I was always duct taped, because every word I said was a lie. And that needed to be, like, physically reiterated to show that I, like, as a reminder that everything I say is a lie. So everyone around me, my cousins, my cousin specifically, they were terrified of me. And I wasn't allowed to speak to my parents. I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone alone. And then it got to. Then, like with the duct taping, I wasn't allowed to speak to anyone. So if I was at church and I wasn't duct taped, and a church leader came and because this happened, a church leader would come and be like, are you okay? And I would have to just stare at them because she also had spies. She had people reporting back to her anything and everything that I did. So if I did talk to someone, she found out somehow. Like, and, and it. The. The amount of paranoia and fear that I had. Whereas, like, I, I can't talk to anyone. And also, people saw. People saw me duct taped. People saw that these things were going on. And other than, like, the few people that, like, went to bishop and being like, hey, something's wrong, no one did anything. And, and, and I, I believe because of the culture of the church, of this patriarchal, familial setup, if, like, my dad is the patriarch of our family, right? He's supposed to receive revelation for his family. And so if he is in support of something, it must be good. It must be because God gave him revelation that this is the right thing. And so it. It creates the system of not challenging things that should be challenged. And it disempowers, especially women, to not challenge anything and not voice anything. Yeah, I mean, I know this timeline is going to be kind of all of it.

Forced Confession and Spiritual Coercion

John Dehlin [01:04:14] No, no, no. This is amazing. And I'll just. Gerardo's asking me to remind everyone, this is such an important story. It speaks to Jody Hildebrandt, but it speaks to purity culture. It speaks to high demand religions, to Mormon and to other Christian and other religions in general. Just Purity culture is so destructive and mental health ethics are so important. And the fact that Jody was given access to Mormon apostles and was strategizing for the Mormon Church on how to deal with mental health, but more specifically porn and masturbation and homosexuality, as the church likes to call it, it's so systemic. It's much, much bigger than Jodi. I'm just going to ask really quickly. We have 6,000 viewers and listeners right now. We welcome this audience. Many of you have never heard of Mormon Stories podcast before. If we can just get a third of you to like this episode, we've got, I don't know, 700 likes so far. Please like this episode. Please subscribe to the channel. Not for me, not for the channel, but because we really want Jesse's story to be heard and, and to be shared. Because this is so important, not just for the eight passengers case, not just for Mormonism, but for high demand religions and for mental health in general. Jesse, let's just go back for a second. So your parents drop you off with your grandparents and indirectly with Jody. It sounds like Jody persuaded your parents to leave you in her care. How is it that she became your therapist? And then how did that. Did you literally start meeting with your aunt? Because ethically, a dual relationship like that can get you your license canceled. You, you are never. That is like rule one of ethics. You don't treat family members or friends, period. So can you talk about that relationship? Did Jody become your official therapist? And why was your bishop involved? And how did it get to where not only is your aunt your therapist, but your aunt is carting you around to other clients as a spokesperson, telling you what to say to them. Like, this is just horrendous ethically on so many levels.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:06:47] I mean, the way that I think she convinced my parents is in a similar way of like a frog being boiled. So it didn't start out the gate as horrifically abusive. It started out, you know, okay, Jesse has. Gets a lot of value from hair. So we'll cut the hair off. Okay. Jesse isn't allowed to talk to boys. Jesse is not allowed to. Which, like, doesn't seem very. I mean, I think it's extreme, but in the grand scheme of, like, how extreme it becomes, it's not that extreme. I'm. I have to be with Alex at all times. I'm not allowed to be alone. I am like, I'm living like during the week I'm with my grandparents, and then the weekend I'm with my. I'm with Jody. That was like the beginnings set up. So I was doing homeschooling at first, which eventually stopped, which I will add is illegal to keep a child from school. And I wasn't allowed to like use the phone. I wasn't allowed to use the Internet. I wasn't allowed to use any form of communication with people other than like my, like my, like my grandparents, my aunt, young women's leaders, things like that.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Were you living with both? Were you going back and forth?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:08:20] I was going back and forth and I had a lot of rules, like structural rules, like I had to be awake by 7:30, I had to make my bed, I had to make sure everything was clean and organized, that I helped my grandparents. So I had a lot of those types of rules. Which again doesn't seem very, I mean I think it's extreme, like an extreme reaction to what was going on. I. Looking back and knowing where I was emotionally and mental health wise, I needed love, I needed to be seen. I needed validation and safety and emotional safety. I needed answers. I needed to like. There was no conflict in my home because it wasn't allowed. So there was no space to be angry. There was no space to feel anything other than being digestible, being, you know, the docile, happy, helpful. I'm certain lots of you have seen that documentary, the Stay Sweet and Pray.

John Dehlin [01:09:25] Keep Sweet, Keep sweetening. Yeah, keep sweet, Pray and Obey, I think it's called that one.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:09:32] That's what's expected. And if you especially as like, like a condition, like a female conditioned person, like I didn't fit into that role. I didn't fit into that categorization. I didn't fit into that temperament. And my mother was very much that temperament. And because in these traditionally structured family units the mother is in charge of rearing the children. And because I didn't fit into this digestible, easy stay sweet and obey kind of behavior. It was not. It wasn't. It was, it was bad. It was, it was, it was what I think is the reason. It was like the, the foundation for everything else to happen. And I think a lot of people, a lot of female and femme people that don't fit into that have experienced, maybe not to this extreme, but have experienced that sense of isolation and rejection from, from religion and from, and especially if you grow up in like Utah or these, these communities that are, have a lot of Mormons, the isolation and rejection from community as well. So I was. But things progressively got worse because Jody's belief and her, her therapeutic modalities are, are. Which is just crazy. To say she believed that if you are angry or depressed or anxious or any, like, mental health, it's a result of shame, and shame is a result of sin. And so mental health is a result of sin through. Through the lens of shame. And everything can be brought back to shame to the point where, like, I would. Because I had undiagnosed adhd, I, like, even sitting here, I'm, like, constantly moving and tapping my foot. Or that she would talk about, okay, if you're tapping your foot, it's because your body is full of so much shame. There's nowhere else for it to go. So it comes out in these sort of, like, tics. She talked about OCD and how OCD was a result of shame and that your body is so full and your spirit are so full of shame that it has nowhere else to go. So overflows into these neuroses and shame is a result of sin. And so what she did is because I wasn't getting better, I was getting worse. Is that there was still. There was still sin in me that wasn't coming out, that I hadn't confessed yet. And she was so hyper fixated on me confessing, confessing sin. And she. Again, she was. She was convinced I was a sex addict. I was a drug addict. I had had abortions. I had kissed two boys. I had kissed lots of girls when I was like a young child. But at the time, like, I was. I was giving Book of Mormons out at school. I had never done drugs. I had never had anything close to sex. I didn't even know. She was convinced I was also masturbating. I was a mat. Like, I had a masturbation problem. I didn't even know female anatomy. People could masturbate. I didn't even know that. But I was. Because she was convinced I was also not allowed to use tampons because she was convinced I was masturbating with them, which is insane.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] So, I mean, this sounds like projection. I don't know if it's projection.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:13:14] It's so. I know. So things got progressively worse and worse and worse because I wasn't getting better. She was. She. She would say, I'm trying to make you so physically uncomfortable that it forces the sin out. And so that's when she started. I would. Had to sleep outside in the snow. That's when I was. So when she would lock me in this. In her. She worked in Lehigh in, like the. What's that area called in Lehigh with the golf course?

John Dehlin [01:13:48] Thanksgiving Point.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:13:50] She worked in Thanksgiving Point. And, oh, I lost my train of thought.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] You were talking about her keeping you out in the snow and kind of torture, torturing you in various ways.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:14:05] She had an office, and in Thanksgiving Point, there was a little side office, closet kind of room. It was, like, a little bit bigger than a closet, but it didn't have any windows. It had, like, a table, a chair, an actual closet. And that's kind of about. That's about it. So that's where I. When I. When I was pulled out of school and I started living with her full time because she worked. I went with her to work, and that's where I stayed. And sometimes she would lock me in it, sometimes she wouldn't. But I was not allowed to leave. That was, like, rule number one. I was not allowed to leave that room. And she would have me write out my sins on a piece of paper. And every day she gave me the same piece of paper, and I would have to write out my sins. And these sins that I was writing out, I was like. And again, I believed all this. I believed this fully. So I was like, oh, there must be more in me. I'm trying. I'm trying to think. I'd be like, oh, one time I lied to my best friend Scotty, and, like, these are the types of things I'm writing out. And then she would come back in, take that paper, read it to me, make me get on my hands and knees and beg for forgiveness as she read this back to me. And then she was like, no, this isn't it. This is not it. This isn't all. There's more. There's more. There's more. And there wasn't. And I would start making things up because I was like, I don't know. And because she was convinced there was more, things got worse and worse and worse. I ran away three times from her house. I went to a neighbor's. I went to the police. They didn't do anything, because Jody is the most convincing person you'll ever meet. When I was talking. Side note, the last time I met up with Alex, this was a couple of years ago, she said something that I think is, like, so perfectly articulated into describing how manipulative and convincing Jody is. And she said, I cannot be around my mom. I can't ever be around her again, because if she told me the sky was yellow, I would believe her. She has this ability to, like, alchemize. Like. Like, just get into your soul. It's like. It is horrifying. And there's no real way of explaining it to people. Unless you've experienced it or if you've experienced this level of emotional abuse, there's no way of really like having. There's no way of understanding it.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] I mean, narcissistic cult leader comes to mind.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:16:42] Yeah, I don't know if this is, if this is fully true, but from what I understand, she's been diagnosed with many, many issues, including psychopathy. So she, like, as far as I'm aware, she is a psychopath. She. I, I was, I was forced to sleep. Okay. I was sleeping at first in her. She had like a little sun room off the, off her bedroom. At first I was sleeping on a love seat in there. And then it got worse where I was sleeping on the floor. And then she would make me sleep on her balcony in the middle of winter. This is, this is like January, February in Utah. And she told my family that I was sleeping in like a really like high end, sub zero type of sleeping bag. No, this was like a five dollar Walmart brand sleeping bag. And the balcony that I slept on for a long time, it was one of those single balcony, like, like a single person. Like just enough to walk out on. It wasn't like a big. So I couldn't even stretch out. And it got. It was so bad that I would fantasize about jumping off the balcony and breaking my legs because. Or stabbing myself Because I was like, going to the hospital would be better than this. And when I went to the police, I told them, like, can you just arrest me? Because I was like, I would rather be in jail. Like, I will, I will call, I will go commit a crime so you can arrest me so I can be out of Jody's care. And then finally I ran away. I hitchhiked up to Salt Lake. Salt. Salt Lake from, from Lehigh. And when I finally did run, I ran. And I remember I ran accidentally into the golf course. And the golf course is surrounded with a fence. And I had a, like I had a full blown panic attack when I realized that I was trapped because as I was running, I thought the whole time I was like, she's right behind me. She's right behind me. Any minute she's, she's gonna find me. She's right behind me. And I ran into the golf course, composed myself, started running again. I ended up sleeping in a church that night. I don't even remember where it was. Somewhere around Lehigh. I walked for a long time though. And then the next morning, I stole a five dollar bill and a five dollar bill, a pen and an ear warmer from one of the coats at the church. And I remember thinking, I'm going to write down the address so that I can mail this. I was overwhelmed with guilt of, like, I'm so evil. And I was like, I'm going to mail a 5. $5 back to these, to this bishop or to whoever's at the church because I'm so evil for doing this, but I just need food. And I ended up getting picked up by. By someone who ended up being the sweetest man ever. And him and his wife got me a pair of sweats. I was also, like, wearing a skirt. I had. The jacket that I had was because Jodi would take my jacket away after I started running. Like, after the first time, I ran away from her office. But what had happened was her colleague had found this big rain jacket, windbreaker, reversible jacket in the parking lot and threw it in the room that I was staying in that I was, like, isolated in. And it wasn't. I don't. Up until this very moment, I don't think it was intentional to give to me. But now that I think about, I'm like, I wonder if that was the case. But she put it in that room because they found it in the parking lot. And I remember the door was open. I have a jacket. I need to run. I need to go. And I remember that moment so vividly of, it is now or it is never. I am not getting out of this unless I leave right now. And I didn't think twice. I grabbed the jacket, and I just ran and ran and ran. And I had a skirt on. I had moccasins on that. My feet were coming through the bottoms. I'm certain I looked horrendously unwell. I had lost tons of weight. I was. I. My stomach was eating itself alive. I was. There was blood in my stool. It was. I was very unwell. She also, like, I was. I was vegetarian. I wasn't allowed to be vegetarian. She would withhold food. It's just insane. So I ended up hitchhiking to the road home in Salt Lake City under a fake name. I told these people that picked me up that I was 18. I went by the name Rudy Jude, which is, like, such a fake name. And they. They figured it. They figured out that I was a minor. I kept slipping up on my name and stuff. And. And they'd said, like, you either need to tell us who you are so we can help you, or we're gonna have to take you to the shelter because we can't harbor a minor. And I was like, take me to the shelter. I was so. I was too afraid. I was too afraid that Jody would. That Jody would get me. And I lived in the shelter for months. I don't. The timeline of the shell, like, being homeless is really, really fuzzy. There was everything that goes along with being a homeless female that happened. I did get. And I was. I did eventually get caught by some detectives. And then I went back to living with my grandparents. Thankfully, they didn't make me go back to Jody's. I don't really know why, but I didn't. And then, yeah, it's the. The. So I. The day after I ran away the first time, so my aunt was making me run. She'd make me run sprints every night. And again for the reason of making me so physically uncomfortable that I would confess to sins. And she'd had me do it for hours and hours. And outside in the winter, in the snow. And this one time in particular, I said, no. And that was the day that I, like, walked away. I was like, no. And I turned around, and she punched me in the back and knocked me down. And Jody's a. She's not tall, but she is sturdy. She is a powerful. Like a powerhouse of a woman. Very strong. And then I stayed out. So I sat down on the curb after that and walked over. And then I. She ended up going inside. I. I stayed outside and went to a neighbor's house. The neighbor didn't know what to do. Jody found me, came, and again, the neighbor was like, I don't want to tell her, but I have to, because you're a minor and she has power of attorney and she's your guardian. I can't. I can't lie to her. And the next morning at, like. Actually, that may have been after the police, after one of the times I ran away. I'm failing to remember which one was which. The next morning, though, after I ran away, she pulled me out of bed by my hair, blindfolded me, tied my wrists, tied my legs, put me in the car, and just started driving. And I think we stopped at what I'm assuming at a gas station. And at the gas station, she screamed at me to lay on the ground because I was manipulating people. If people could see me, I was manipulating them into thinking something was wrong. So I laid on the ground of her car, and she drove for what felt like hours into the mountains. And my other grandparents, not my. Not my dad's parents, but my mom's parents, parked. I found this out afterwards were parked at the base of the mountain to make sure I didn't run away. And she had me run up and down for six hours, up and down and up and down. And. And the other part about this type of abuse that I don't think is talked about as much is that 90% of the time you're evil and horrible and wrong and the abuse is almost unbearable. But then there are moments where you're rewarded and you are now the best thing in the world. And so after these six hours of running up and down, the reward that Jody gave me, of acceptance, of like you, you did it, you did the thing. It creates this cycle of which I think is already the, the foundation and the prerequisites of this is already instilled in the Mormon Church of having to earn love. But that has affected my, my life forever, for the rest of my life of if I try a little harder, if I do a little bit more, maybe they'll love me, maybe they'll accept me, maybe they'll, whatever. In this case, it was really extreme where the abuse was so extreme. But then if you, if you would bear it, then you would get these moments of, of immense reward from her. And it's just such a psychological fuckery. And the, I mean, I was, I was scared of myself, People were scared of me, my family. I mean, I'm certain the conversations that Jody had on the phone with my parents of like, we have to make, we have to turn up the knot, we have to turn up the dial, we have to turn up the volume. Like, we're, we're getting close, we're getting closer to like finding the evil, rooting the evil out. We have to make it worse. We have to. Or harder, not worse. And so like every day, every day, I was your masterful manipulator. Everything you say is a lie. Satan is working through you. God hates you. God loves me. God. God speaks to me. You're a liar. Everything you say is a lie. You ruined, you're ruining your parents marriage. You ruined your dad's reputation. You ruin everyone's life constantly, every day. These things were told to me. The only reason why anyone likes you is because you manipulate them. The only reason why anyone feels sorry for you is that you manipulate them. No one cares about you. You just manipulate them into caring if you were. And Alex and I have talked about this extensively of like, anything you feel in Jody's world, if you're sick, if you feel like, if you, if you're sad, if you're Sick. It was like, oh, you're such a victim. You're such a little victim right now. And it was, and it was always like, really, what's the word? Like, I can't think of the word. But it was always like, like poking, like contemptuous of like, you poor little thing. You poor little victim.

Escaping the Abusive Situation

John Dehlin [01:29:08] Pathetic.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:29:09] And if you were sick, it was like, yeah, it was always just like, you're manipulating people. You're manipulating me right now. You're not sick. Do you have a fever? Are you throwing up? Then you're manipulating me. You're manipulating everyone around you to think that, to feel bad for you. You're such a victim. And she would constantly talk about, like after I went to the cops, she would talk, talk about how, oh no, this is even before I went to the cops, because when I did go to the cops, I was terrified that I was going to ruin her life because that's what I did. She creates this narrative and this internalization in you. To think that you are evil, to think that you are terrible, that you deserve everything that's coming to you, and that she destroys your reputation with everyone around you. She separates everyone. No one's allowed to talk alone. So everyone, everyone distrusted me. Everyone thought I was deserving of all this. Even though, like you were saying these types of extreme punishments, you would think like, oh, this person is a heroin addict, or this person has extreme problems that need extreme solutions. And I would say that these types of things are always wrong, regardless of what's going on. But I wasn't, I was an angry teenager and I wasn't allowed to be in the same room as my, my. Like, it got to the point where I wasn't allowed to be in the same room as my, my cousins. And if I wanted, if they wanted to use the kitchen and I was in the kitchen, Jody, they would go tell Jody. Jody would scream at me to get out of, to get out of the kitchen. And so they would use it. And I would just like go stand in the hallway and wait. Duct taped. So and, and then be just constantly told, like, over and over and over again, no one loves you. You're a manipulator. You destroy people's lives constantly. But yeah, it's just, it's the, the, The results or the. I can't think of the word I'm looking for. The way that this has affected my entire adult life is like, there's no way of, of quantifying. Took me over a decade to like, get to a point where I didn't actually think I was evil, that I didn't actually think that I was. And I know people say this, like, hyperbolically, but, like the spawn of Satan, like, I. I couldn't get close to anyone because I was so afraid that they would. They would see. They like. And this. When. When this type of abuse happens in families, I'm certain other victims of this type of abuse can. Can attest to this. It's like, if my own family can't love me, how would anyone else love me? If my own family thinks I'm this evil, evil creature, so evil that they, like, I can't. They can't even speak to me. So evil they can't even be in the same room as me. And from what I. From what I've heard, when these children, These. These children of Ruby, when they were taken or when Jody was arrested, Jody told them that these children shouldn't. Should not be around anyone else, that they were evil. And they. They can't be around anyone else.

John Dehlin [01:32:57] Other children, right? They can't be around other children.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:33:00] They can't be around other children. They shouldn't be around other children because they're evil or something to that effect. And this is exactly what she did to me. So the thing that I am finding, I'm having a lot of emotional reaction to, and it's complicated because I'm grateful in a weird way, I'm grateful that she partnered with someone that has so much fame, because I don't think there was no way it would be getting the coverage that it's getting if she hadn't. But Jody is the mastermind here, not Ruby. Ruby is still responsible and, like, should be arrested for harming her children for sure. And I'm sure Jody, like, used that. Used what? It was already there, which is what she does. She uses what's already there to her advantage. Jody is the. Is. Is the one doing this. This is Jody's therapeutic ideas. These are Jody's ideas that she has been doing for over 14 years. This is not new. This is a pattern. And I cannot. I'm just so grateful that these children a. Were taken out of that career, not care, but out of custody from them. And that hopefully, because of the validation and. And the repercussions that are happening to them, that their healing will be much faster than 14 years. Because. Because the other layer about this is like, again, my family does not talk about anything. They don't talk about anything that's not religion, politics, or sports. They don't talk about real things. They don't talk about their emotions, which I think is a very common thing for boomer generation and high, high demand religion. For 14 years I was not allowed to talk about it. For 14 years I was just the, I was just still an angry 15 year old. I was still just an angry 16 year old. For 14 years it was. And on top of all of that, they were so hyper fixated on the idea that I just needed to forgive and that was the only way I was going to heal is if I forgive. And I think that's a really common thing in Mormon culture to focus on this idea that forgiveness is Christlike. And if you just forgive your abusers or forgive, you know, oh, Jesus forgave the people that murdered him. So you need to forgive. I've heard that story from my family so many times, like it's just so on. If you are a victim of abuse and you've had this experience, know that that's fucked. And you don't. And I, I truly believe that you don't need to forgive people that have abused you. You don't. I think you can go on to live perfectly fine lives I can attest to like myself. I am, I've carved and created a life that I'm very proud of that does bring me a lot of joy and community and connection. Without having forgiven my aunt, without having forgiven my family. I don't have a relationship with my family anymore. But the, the positive thing about going no contact with family members that have chosen to neglect or abuse or allow abuse is that it, that is a way of self validation that what happened, happened and that it wasn't okay. The last year of no contact with my parents has been one of the, has been very difficult but also like one of the most healing years of my life of this like this continuous feedback loop of I'm not going to allow people into my life that do not validate and see the things that they, that, that, that they caused harm. And every day it's just a reminder of like, nope, you, you harmed me in a way that I cannot even begin to explain. And I'm not going to stop talking about it. I'm not going to make myself small to allow just, just for your comfort just so you don't have to deal with the repercussions and the natural consequences of your actions. When you hurt someone, you lose trust, you lose relationship. Like that is the way it works. And so many families in these types of religions just don't understand that. And so many people I think are, are stuck in this space of like, I have to. Because they're my family. I have to be uncomfortable. I can't. I'm not. I, I have to make myself small. I have to not talk about it. I have to X, Y and Z. Because they're my family. And, and, or, or they're like. For a long time I just kept going back. Well, my parents are good people. My parents, my siblings didn't experience any of this. Like my experience. My siblings had great childhoods, which almost made it like in a weird way worse because it was like so isolating and inexperienced. Like, there was no solidarity of like. This happened to you? This happened to me. Okay, cool. We can like corroborate on this. I had that a little bit with my cousin, but in my immediate family, it was like they could just write it off as like, this is too extreme. This is just. You're just being angry. You're just causing problems. You're just ruining everything. Which then goes back to confirming the things that Jody would constantly tell me. And then Jody telling all of them. Like she told my, one of my aunts. I found this out years later. She told one of my aunts that the reason she kept me outside in the snow was because she was afraid I was going to murder her in her sleep. She told my family that, that I was so evil, that I was. I, I was capable of murdering her in her sleep. And that's why she had to do it for self protection. And again, like, I believed all this. I trusted these people. I trusted the church. I was, I was all. I also wasn't allowed to read the Book of Mormon, which is another funny. Not funny, but funny thing because again, it gave me too much value. Anything that gave me a sense of value or identity, not allowed to have.

Reflecting on the Harm Experienced

John Dehlin [01:40:00] Jesse, if it's okay. Like, there's. There's just a few things jumping out at me. One is just I'm. I'm usually a little bit calloused. Like I am just bowled over with internal emotion at the torture, frankly, that you've experienced. I know my viewers and listeners feel the same. And the one word that you know is, is coming out other than I'm sorry is just resilience. Just so the first thing I just need to communicate is just how moved we are and how deeply saddened and shocked and sorry we are for the torture you're describing, but also inspired by your resilience. That's the first thing I need to communicate.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:40:55] Thank you. I mean, I also want to say that I was not okay For a very long time, like who I am today as a 30 year old, like I've gone to a lot of therapy. I've spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on therapy. I have complex PTSD from this. But for a very long time I was not okay. I was, I've had and trigger warning. I've had multiple suicide attempts. I was hospitalized for multiple suicide attempts. I, I, I. Interpersonal relationships were, I was so paranoid and so afraid. Again, like I was saying, I was so afraid to let anyone close because I was so convinced that I was, I was evil, truly evil. And if anyone liked me it was because I was manipulating them. If anyone liked me, it's because they just didn't see, they didn't see this evil, evil part of me. And I think that the, when I do talk about the story because I don't, I'm at the point in my life I don't really talk about this anymore unless it's like kind of a need to know basis. If I'm like dating someone. These are, these are things that probably need to be talked about because it does, it still does affect my life, but kind of like in a similar way to like invisible diseases. Like people can't see how deeply affect, like effective or like how much this has affected me because like maybe I can show it I'm okay on the surface but for a very long time I was not okay. And I want people, I hope people know that if you are in that space of being not okay to just keep going and not that it will just suddenly be okay because it's still not okay. Like I'm still, I still, I still have very much like things that I have to work through and process. I mean even seeing this headline, like seeing Jody arrested like the last five, six days, it's been absolutely bonkers in terms of like emotional landscape and reprocessing and so much anger re coming up that I thought I'd already processed and I just, I just hope people that have experienced abuse, especially this form of abuse where it's psychological, know that it makes sense you're not okay. It makes sense you're not okay. And to keep going.

John Dehlin [01:43:50] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I know this Will. I'm, I, I'm so glad you're still with us. Frankly, Jesse and I know that your story is going to encourage others to hold on a couple other quick things like did you say your parents signed over a power of attorney to either your grandparents or Jody?

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:44:17] From what I, yeah, I believe to Jody is what I was, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] And then the next thing is, I'm just like this same. Jody Hildebrandt has been a personal therapist to probably hundreds, if not thousands of Mormon couples all along the Wasatch front. Alienating wives from husbands, encouraging wives to isolate their husbands, to punish their husbands, to kick them out, to divorce them. The power that she's been able to wield as such a torturing, abusive person is just mind blowing to me. But her power, and I don't mean to keep harping on this, but I do believe if we focus on the individual and excuse the system, we're missing something. Jody's power came from the Mormon Church, from her interactions with, according to Jody, Mormon apostles at the highest level, to all the bishops that recommended her services to their parishioners, to their ward members. The fact that the Mormon Church gave her her power is unspeakable to me. Where is the, you know, we're taught as Mormons that Mormon Church leaders have the gift of discernment, the gift of revelation. Where was God? Where was the Mormon God in telling Mormon apostles and telling Mormon bishops that this person on their list that they were recommending couples and families and teenagers and gay youth to. Where was the Mormon God in inspiring Mormon Church leadership that this was a torturing, abusive monster, that. That instead, because of the church's power, was. Was destroying how many marriages and families in her wake? That's mind boggling to me. And then just the eight passengers. I don't want to give Ruby, Frankie a pass here or Kevin, her husband, but all of the most shocking things that have come out, whether it's depriving their son of a bed for six months, duct taping wrists and ankles, almost the sadistic joy that we see in Ruby with torturing and punishing her children. I don't know if this is unique to Ruby, but we clearly see where this is coming from.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:47:16] It's. She. She believes this. This is the thing that she, she fully believes in her own. She believes that she is inspired by God.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] Jody, Jody, Jody.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:47:31] And so when you believe, when you have that level of delusions of grandeur, you are so powerful and so convincing to people. And she, and when you, and when you, when you, when you, when you preface it as a. I'm doing this because I'm saving their soul in a system and in a culture that, I mean, she's just playing right into it. She's just playing right into those hands of, like, of course I want my child's soul to be saved. Of course. Yeah. No, pornography. Pornography is the worst thing, is just. Is so evil. She believed if you watch porn. Her belief is if you watch porn one time, you're an addict. And if you're an addict, which that would make most people of the universe an addict, then you need surgery because you are sick and Satan is working through you. And so. And I think she. I think it also plays into this, like, you are special kind of belief that I think a lot of people, like the Mormon Church kind of instills, which is something that I had to, like, really unlearn because I held on to this belief for a long time that like, oh, all of the suffering is for a purpose. All of the suffering is preparing me. All of the suffering is, you know, purifying me. It's making me humble. It's making me teachable, you know, like Job. And I think a lot of people justify or rationalize behavior and treatment because of that. And then when you're told, oh, well, now you need this really extreme thing to save you. To save you. And because God has a plan for you. And so people really, like, I think they're way more open to these extreme measures because of that. And this kind of, like, you are special. God has a plan for you. It. It, like, it keeps people, I think, trapped because, like, I. It came. I had to get to this point where I'm like, I'm not special. This wasn't because God didn't. Wasn't. And I'm. I'm. I want to say, like, I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God. But even as an atheist, I still had this internalized belief of, like, it has to have been for a reason. And if it wasn't for a reason, then I, like, I couldn't. I couldn't live. It was like my brain was trying to protect itself by having to give reason for it. But there wasn't. There wasn't reason. It wasn't because I was special or evil or anything like that. It's because this woman chose to abuse me. That's it. This woman chose to abuse me, not as a way to purify me, not as a way to save me, which is what the church often uses as an excuse to treat people this way. It was bad luck. It was, you know, wrong time, wrong wrong place, wrong time. And the choices of this woman and my parents.

John Dehlin [01:51:11] Yeah. And then the last thing I'll just highlight, just because you've helped me think about this more clearly, is just there's a. There are important theological, Christian or Mormon theological underpinnings. The idea that Jody believed in spirits, believed in Satan, believed in. Maybe the second coming. She believed that pornography. I want to hear what you're about to say about the second coming. But the fact that she believed in purity, culture and worthiness and sin, that porn and masturbation and I'm going to guess homosexuality were the most evil things next to murder on the planet. And then if she's having dreams or feelings, well, in Mormonism, the Holy Ghost. Good feelings are the Holy Ghost. So if she has a good dream or a good feeling, she can just feel like that's God, because the Book of Mormon tells Nephi to kill Laban in chapter three. So spirits can tell you to do really extreme things. The Holy Ghost can tell you to do really extreme things if you feel it or if you dream it. And then if she feels anything dark or sad or evil, that's Satan's spirits. And then she feels like she has this blessing or permission that's divinely inspired to root out evil spirits. To root out evil, you know, because what's more important than God and purity and righteousness and the afterlife? So the stakes are just so incredibly high. To your point, if we're dealing with light and darkness, this reminds me of Lori Vallow and Chad Dabel. If we're dealing with light and darkness and righteous spirits and evil spirits and a celestial war and the worth of a soul is infinite, then the stakes are so high that you have to save Jesse's purity at any cost, because the stakes are celestial and they're eternal. And anyway, so there's a theological foundation to the atonement to Jesus, that Jesus died on the cross to purify us of our sins. And now you're going against the atonement. And we've got to get you right out of a sense of you needing to be made pure so that you can return to live with your heavenly Father. The stakes are just so incredibly high. You were about to say something about. About the Second Coming. I'm just curious if there's some sort of prepper, end of time sort of theology that was also inspiring, Jody.

Shame, Sexuality, and Religious Harm

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:53:49] Well, but also to talk about what you just said.

John Dehlin [01:53:53] Everything. Yeah, just go.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:53:54] Yeah, that is exactly right. When every. When the stakes are your soul. When the stakes are, like, eternal, you know, the outer darkness or celestial kingdom, like you. She can rationalize and valid or what's the word? She can like, rationalize any behavior. Anything. Any. Because, like, you know, the. The cost or the. What is it the cost of soul

John Dehlin [01:54:25] or the worth of souls are great, you know.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:54:29] Yeah. Yeah. So it's like any. If, if, if I'm, if, if doing these things saves your soul, it's worth it if, if, you know, like if I have to duct tape you and tie you up, if I have, you know, if I have to do these things. Because she would talk about this too and make it about her, you know, I'm doing this for you. If I have to do these extreme things, it's to save you. And when, when the stakes are that high, when everything is that extreme and that emotionally like driven, you can, you can convince anyone of anything. That's how cult leaders, that's how cult leaders do what they do. That's how these types of people get power. Because I think they believe what they are saying and the stakes are impossibly high. And then it plays into this idea of like, I am special individual. God has chosen you specifically, especially with like the Mormons where it's like, oh, you know, if you come to earth, you chose the right side and God saves you for this time to save people. Like it really plays into this ego driven, like self righteous identity that the church like feeds its. I mean I say this as someone that believed this too. It's just you can convince people to do almost anything.

John Dehlin [01:55:52] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:55:53] And I think she is proof of that. But yeah, she fully. Jody would. The thing that's on top of all of this, she would criticize the church in ways of like, oh, she, she hates men. She hates men. She thinks all men are pretty much all men. Vast majority of men are evil and including church leaders. She thought church leaders were idiots and that she had the answer, that she understood it. I don't know. This is definitely speculation. I just want to say I don't know this for certain, but I'm, I'm fairly confident in saying she probably was a part of the whole female should have, women should have the priesthood movement.

John Dehlin [01:56:36] I'm, I'm certain that ordained women, ordained women.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:56:40] I'm certain like honestly, if Jody was born a man, like it's terrifying to think about what power she would have had. Like easily, easily. But the fact that she was a woman, I think also because of the way the church is structured kept her from doing more, more damage. But she, she, she believed that like, again, like, she believed that her work, that she was combating Satan every day in preparation for the second coming. And she believed because my, my grandfather had a patriarchal blessing saying that he was going to work directly for Jesus on This earth. And so he always believed that the second coming was going to happen in his lifetime. But she, she used kind of that page girl, that language to also fuel her. Her stuff of like, the second coming is so close. I'm like going to be the one of the people that welcomes God back,

John Dehlin [01:57:49] ushers in the second coming of Jesus.

Jessi Hildebrandt [01:57:51] Yeah, but again, these are not theoretical. These are not like hypothetical. She believed these in literal, actual. This is all very literal to her that God literally was going to come and thank her for all of her hard work and all of the good that she has done because she is fighting tooth and nail on the front lines of Satan. And how do you argue with that when you already come from a culture that lends itself to this type of behavior? How do you argue with it? No, you're not being, you're not being, you know, you're not fighting Satan. But the church already said that pornography is the worst thing. So it is evil and evil Satan. So I guess she is. It's like, it's, it's kind of this perfect cesspool to allow this type of behavior and allow this type of therapy to happen. And also, I also want to say that in the DSM 5, sex addiction is not a thing. Sex addiction and pornography addiction are not real. And so what they do and this is what's so. One thing that is so frustrating to me is that when they bill insurances, they'll bill them for depression, anxiety, things that are in the DSM 5, they won't say that they're being treated for sexual addiction, because that's not real. Yes, addictive behaviors can, you know that you can have that around anything. But actual addiction, like the physical addiction of heroin or the physical addiction of like, that is real. Yes, you can have addictive behaviors, but sex addiction, it's just, it's so like the levels of deceit that are in this. It's just, it's, it's never ending.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] Yeah. Yeah. And we had Natasha Helfer, licensed marriage and family therapist and sex therapist on Mormon stories yesterday. She can confirm. Yes, there's probably, you know, when I was getting my PhD in psychology, we actually did a study at Utah State University and we called it problematic pornography viewing. And the idea was if, if you, if it's your values to watch less pornography or to masturbate less, then, you know, we can try and develop a treat. And it wasn't me. It was my, my mentor, a non LDS mentor at Utah State University and a colleague. They did a study to See whether some sort of therapeutic approach could be developed to help a client reduce their masturbation and pornography viewing based on values. But there is no way. Go ahead.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:00:57] That's just habit change.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] That's the thing, right?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:01:02] Yes. Anything can be. Anything can be compulsive. You can compulsively exercise. You can compulsively eat. You can, like. Compulsive behavior is obviously real.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] Right.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:01:14] And sex addiction, mass. Like masturbation addiction, pornography addiction. No, they just use those terms. They just slapped that on there as a way to scare people, as a way of controlling people. But it's not.

John Dehlin [02:01:31] Yeah, yeah. And by the way, you know, and I treated as a psychologist in training for six years, students and members of the community at Utah State University, when I was getting my psychology PhD, when they called themselves addicts, they would show up at the counseling center at Utah State. I'm a returned missionary. I'm an addict, you know, and I'm like, an addict.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:01:56] Whoa.

John Dehlin [02:01:57] And they're like, yeah. I'm like, what. What's. What are you addicted to? Oh, well, it's porn and masturbation. Oh. Oh, my gosh. So you must be looking at porn like, 8, 9, 10 hours a day and masturbating multiple times a day in public places. And it's like. Oh, no, no, no. It's like once every three or four weeks. And I maybe view porn for 10 minutes while I. But just to kind of drive the point home, the Mormon Church has created addiction and recovery programs all throughout the world, in every ward. And whenever a masturbating teen or adult goes to the bishop and endorses even light, moderate masturbation or pornography use, they're immediately referred by the Mormon Church, by Mormon bishops, to addiction recovery programs that are sponsored by the Mormon Church, where they call themselves addicts. So this is not a Jody thing. This is not a connections thing. This is a Mormon Church thing.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:03:00] Jody used to run LifeStar Utah county back when I lived with her. And that lifestar is. That's one of those. Those programs and the psychological effect of labeling yourself as an addict for very normal human behaviors is detrimental to mental health and to relationships and to, like, self trust and self worth and just the destruction that it causes. And on top of the fact that they're billing insurances for these programs under false pretenses, using depression and anxiety as ways of insurance fraud.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:03:46] While telling the people that are involved that it's for sex addiction. But because sex addiction is not, you know, validated in the DSM 5, they can't. They can't actually bill insurances for it. It's. And it's also, I think, really disrespectful to people that actually have addiction. Like, it's. It's disrespectful to. On, like, both sides of the equation.

John Dehlin [02:04:11] Absolutely.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:04:11] Because, like. Like, if you've ever talked to an addict, like. Like, you were saying, like, oh, you must be masturbating eight times a day, like, watching porn. It must be just, like, completely ruining your life and. And making you unable to, like, exist in society. You're stealing money from people. You're lying to people. You're. You're stealing from your work. You're. You know, like, that is addiction to the point of, like. Oh, also, Jody had me go to 12 step. I did 12 step because she was convinced I was an addict. I did all of. I did all of the. All the steps. I did all of the. Like, the White book, The. The. I think that's the Alcoholics Anonymous one. Like, that's how much she believed I was an addict. And I also. Then I. And it's weird because this is, like, a silver lining to all of this. Like, I was so afraid of becoming the person that she thought I was. That, like, I was, like, so afraid of drugs and alcohol and so afraid of engaging in those types of behaviors. But then that's also, like, really complicated because then it's like, my relationship with pleasure is super fucked up because anything pleasurable is considered evil to her because sins of the flesh and pleasure is just anything. And being queer has been really difficult for a long time because it's like, that is the most evil thing in the world you could possibly ever do. Masturbating.

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Mm. I'm so sorry. Well, if you're comfortable, Jesse, maybe let's talk about. I don't know if. If we've pretty much covered the most egregious things or if there's more, but I think we're all dying to hear how you escaped this torture hellhole of Jody Hildebrandt's making. But don't rush the story. Just. Where does your story pick up?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:06:09] Yeah, I mean, it's. Again, it's like. I think I've covered a lot. Like, pretty much all of, like, the most extreme. But this is also, like, not only, like, the intensity, but the frequency and the longevity of it. Like, being told you're evil once it's awful, but when it's all day, every day, and that on top of, like, feeding into a system that already exists. Feeding it into a narrative that already exists. I also had really extreme. I had chronic sleep paralysis which I don't know if there's. Most people have experienced sleep paralysis at least once in their life. It's very scary. But I had chronic ever since I was about 14. So it happened all of the time. And I was so afraid that it was an evil spirit and that I, and I already believed I was evil because I had, was queer. And Jody definitely used that as a, as a, as a way of like harming me as well. So again, it's like quantifying all this is really difficult because it's just. It was constant and pernicious and I ended up, like I said, I ran away. I hitchhiked. I hitchhiked up to Salt Lake. I lived in the shelter. Not great things happened in the shelter. But again, like if that's not like evidence enough of like, I would, I would have rather have been in prison. I would have rather are like arrested in a homeless shelter or in the hospital than be with Jody. And, and, and a lot of this was also subconscious because consciously I still believed it, but I think my subconscious was trying to protect me. And so I got myself out. My parents were very much still convinced of Jody when I did get caught. When I went back to my grandparents house, I hadn't seen my parents in over a year. My mom just showed up one day and this is like this. It's. I feel for my mother. I have a lot of, I have a lot of empathy and compassion for her. I think she made a lot of really bad mistakes. I think she still does, but just the, the culture of the church. I don't think she had a lot of ability to make other choices. So I want to preface this, but my mom to kind of like paint a picture of like how she dealt with this. Haven't seen her in a year. She just shows up unannounced wanting to take my senior portraits. She wanted a photo for my senior year which I wasn't even in because she made me drop out of school so she could put on her wall to pretend like everything was okay. And I, I did, I did it. I went and got my, my, because I was one. I was just kind of in shock that she was there and because she's my mom and like I, like we are biologically wired to want our parents. And soon after I did see like the rest of my family and we were getting family photos and they were trying to force me to meet up with Jody and I found out Because I overheard my mom on the phone. It was crazy like that I was still living at my grandparents and I overheard her on the phone. Kind of allude to the idea that like Jody, Jody for some reason was going to be involved. Like we were gonna go get dinner afterwards and she was going to be there. And I remember having like a full blown panic attack and begging her not to take me, not to take me, not to take me. And they, we were already in the car going and thankfully they dropped me. They did drop me off. But yeah, they, they. I don't know what their bleed. I don't know what they feel now. I do know that they still can't admit to it. They still can't validate it. I think that it, I think it's kind of interesting. I don't know if you've experienced this, but like when, like when people are so smart. My family is very intelligent, very educated, very intelligent people. It almost seems like their ability to rationalize is even greater and like to make things make sense. So, yeah, it's been, it's. Yeah, I don't know, it's, it's been a very long, long road of very slow recovery.

John Dehlin [02:11:33] When, when you. And just. I know you probably already said this, but I just want to make this clear. Did you sit in one on one sessions with Jody as in a formal therapeutic role? I just want to really. What? Say it again all the time. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:11:54] You know, like, it was, it was, it was constant. Like non, like non traditional where or not. Not like official, but absolutely one on one as well. And so, but like, but like, but her therapeutic, her therapy was not just like, tell me about your, like, her therapy. Like, everything was her therapy. All of this was her therapy. Like, I don't know what she's been able to achieve outside the scope of children living with her. I don't know what harm she's been able to cause through like her traditional clients, but I can only imagine, like I, She is, she is a monster. Like, truly. And, and there's not even a word, I think that's strong enough to describe what she is and what she was capable. Was. Thank God. Was capable of. Yeah.

Attempts at Reconciliation After Leaving

John Dehlin [02:13:05] So how did you have any reconciliation with Jody Hildebrandt once you returned to your grandparents, once you were no longer forced to live with Jody or I assume, obtain any more treatment or abuse or torture from Jody? Was there, were there words, Were there reconciliation? Did Jody, Was Jody mad at your grandparents? Like, what were the family dynamics once you were, once you were Able to escape Jody's torturous care. How is that process between you and Jody and within the family?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:13:42] So Jody has done, I don't know. I don't think to this level, but she is inserted herself into many people's lives in. In the family as, like, a way of helping people. But I. I don't know if she was angry at my. My grandparents or. Or. Or whatnot, but my brother went on to live with Jody and work for Jody for years. And so my family was. Was very much enmeshed with her for a very long time. And I think the cognitive. I think a lot of it is cognitive. Cognitive dissonance and, like, having it. Having to have it be okay, otherwise, like, dealing with the shame and. And the guilt of what they allowed, I think would have been too much. I saw Jody, I believe, only one time at my brother's wedding. And I was, again, I was not allowed to talk about this. I was. Anytime I brought it up, anytime I was angry, it was, you're ruining everything. You're like, forgive, Move on. I don't think, like. And I think also, I don't think people really believed me. I think that was a big part of it. I think they just didn't believe me or they just didn't know what to believe. And so it was easier. Like I said in the beginning, like, it was just easier to be like, I don't. I don't know what. I don't know what the truth is. So I'm just, like, not gonna deal with this. So I saw Jody one time at his wedding. No, I don't think I said anything to her. But I was also, like, desperate for my family to want me and desperate for my family to love me. So I was, like, unsuccessfully trying my hardest to not be angry and not cause a scene, because I internalized this belief that that's all I did. That all I did was ruin everything and hurt people and destroy people's lives. And I was, like. Then became super committed to, like, not being that. But then I. But there's no way of, at least for myself, I could not compartmentalize. I couldn't do it. And so anytime I was around them, I would just not be able to contain it. I would be so angry and hurt. And like, any. Like, I couldn't. But again, I couldn't talk about it. And they. And they viewed it. They view it as me attacking them. They view it as I was, in my mother's words, that I was viciously attacking her for things and people's when people are not able to. To accept what is going on. There's a word for it. I don't remember. They'll make it more digestible for themselves and make it make sense. I didn't abuse Jesse. Jesse wasn't a child. They were 16. That's not a child, that's a teenager. There's a difference. I didn't abuse them. I just, you know, I trusted Jody. So I'm. I'm clean. I can't. Because, like, there's a culture in Mormonism of, like, everything happening to be okay. And I think this is also boomer culture, too, of, like, the white picket fence, the two and a half kids, the dog, the yard. Everything has to look right. And Mormons also gossip. And I think that's a big fear. And I think it also controls. Keeps people in. Like, it's very controlling because of the fear of being talked about. The fear of being gossiped about is so terrifying to people. And so you can't be embarrassing you. Like, that is, like, unacceptable. And so, like, they would rather just pretend like it didn't happen than looking at it in the face. And like, to this day, like, can't. Can't admit it. My brother told me, like, my bro. I read the letter I read my brother is just like, get over. Literally the verbiage get over yourself. And like, both my parent. My parent and my mom and my brother were saying, like. Like, it must be so hard to carry around such toxic emotions all of the time and just to be so angry. And my brother was like. Like, reprimanding me for causing my mom harm. Because when I made my mom physically sick for being homeless, that was the. Right. Like, that was like, the re. Like, the response is, how dare I harm my mother for going to be being homeless? Because I. I worried her so much. Not, like, why did I. Like, Like, I wanted. Just, like. Because I just wanted to be homeless. Like, that was just like, a choice I made one day because I wanted to fuck shit up. Not as, like, I was escaping a psychopath that you put me in their care, and I was doing everything in my power to save myself. And that was the only option that I could see. I didn't want to be homeless. I didn't want to do these things. And that's like, the disconnect is just insane to me. My. I have two siblings that were. That did reach out. My parents haven't reached out to me. My brother hasn't reached out to me since.

Jodi's Arrest and Legal Developments

John Dehlin [02:19:19] Jody's been arrested since shorty's been arrested.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:19:23] Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I don't know what they're thinking. I don't know what's going on with them. I. I can speculate, but I really don't know.

John Dehlin [02:19:31] What would you have. What. Maybe in your dreams? What would you have hoped would happen once it. Once the monster of Jody Hildebrandt sort of became public knowledge? What would you have hoped to hear from your family?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:19:45] I think what I hope for was what any person in this type of situation would hope for is just, like, acknowledgment. Acknowledge it. Acknowledge that it happened. See it. Tell me I wasn't crazy. Like, and it's not even about apologizing. Like, sure, yes, but, like, you. I can't go back and, like, the thing that's, like, been so rough is like, yes, I'm so. I feel so vindicated and validated in this. But it doesn't change the last 14 years. It doesn't change the pain and the isolation and the abandonment and the continuously, continuous gaslighting. It doesn't change that. But what it can do now is just, like, just acknowledge it. Yeah, Jody fucking abused. Like, that this happened, that this was real and that they allowed it, and allow space for me to be angry, allow space for me to do. To fall apart, you know? Like, that's the thing that's so rough about this type of stuff is, like, when you. You go through it, but then when it's not allowed to exist, you go through it for the. Like, it doesn't stop. There's no. There's no stopping of it because it's like it happened. And then I say it happens, and then it's like, no, you're angry. Stop. You're ruining. You're making this all about you. Stop this.

John Dehlin [02:21:29] You're hurting. You're hurting Mom. You're embarrassing the family.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:21:34] Embarrassing the family. So in 2012, Jody was put under probation for breaking HIPAA. I know you know this. For breaking HIPAA. And this is a part of, like, why she lost her license. So she went to the church and. And told. Told on one of her clients to the church.

John Dehlin [02:21:59] And this is, I believe, Adam Paul Steed, who, if. If things go right, we plan to be interviewing him this afternoon. He's the. The one that, I think, if. I don't mean to interrupt you, but, like, didn't. Didn't Adam's bishop recommend Adam and his wife to Jody? And Jody did her typical tactics of accusing him of abuse and of child abuse and all sorts of horrific things, alienating him from his wife and eventually wrecking their marriage, but also, I guess, turning Adam into both. Maybe his bishop, but definitely the BYU honor code and violating the patient client confidentiality rules in really egregious ways. Right? Is that.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:22:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:22:42] Okay.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:22:43] Yep. And the Salt Lake Tribune. The Salt Lake Tribune wrote an article about her in 2012 about this. And I. I was 18 or 19 years old. I made a comment, public comment on. On the article online using my full name, and I. I said something to effect the. The comments are not. Because it's been archived. I can't see the comments anymore, but something to this effect of. Jody Hildebrandt is my aunt. I used to live with her. She's a monster. I can promise you this is not the last time you will hear about Jody Hildebrandt. And everyone in my family saw it. And I guess what happened is that Jody dropped. I didn't know about this until years later, but apparently after I made that comment, and I was also in the process of finding a lawyer to take her to court, I was. I was getting ready to. To sue her for child abuse and to. To. To go down the. The route of criminally charging her. What happened was she, I guess, dropped off her son at my grandparents, like, in a. In a tizzy and left the country. And for like an. Like an. For how much? Like, for how long? I don't know. And I don't think she even knew, but she just left the country after that comment. And the way that my family thought is I was again ruining the family. And I got a letter and my dad is a. Is a. Not. Not practicing anymore. But my dad is a lawyer. Was a lawyer for a really long time. And so I got. I have an email from him. I. I looked it up a couple days ago. I haven't read it since I got it in 2012, and it is horrifying. But my. My dad wrote me this email telling me, like, what would your family think? What would your. Like, everyone that knows you in Corona, what would they think? Like, you publicly shaming this person is just, you know, deeply embarrassing and. And emotionally immature. And regardless of how you feel about Jody, like, this is no one's business. And now you're making it public knowledge. And this is like, think about your siblings, think about your cousins, think about your aunts and uncles. No one's on your side. I mean, the amount of shame. And I ended up not pursuing it because of that. And my dad also was just like, this is going to destroy your life. If you pursue this, it will destroy your life. And he's like, I say that as someone that saw it happen. The legal system going down this route will ruin you. Not like, oh, yeah, let me support my child and help them bring to justice this horrible monster. No. What would people think about you? What would your family think? What would your. What would your neighbors. What were the people in Corona who you haven't seen? Because my family. My family didn't tell anyone what happened when I was. When I got left. They didn't tell anyone where I was. I guess people wrote letters, never received them. I. When I. When I finally did go back to Corona, people thought I had died. People thought I had gotten pregnant. People thought I was, like, in rehab. The rumors and the accusations. I lost all of my friends because they. My best friend was so, so confused and hurt that I just, like, just disappeared and with no explanation. And then, like, this crazy. And then the stuff that did come to light was so insane because all of this is insane and unbelievable. But then who's going to listen to a kid? Who's going to listen to an angry teenager? So it's just like that. I. I think that if I. If it was just the experience with my aunt, I think I could have healed a lot faster. But then for 14 years of being gaslit into thinking that it didn't happen or that I was just making things up or making things hard or causing harm, just to cause harm, because that's just what I do. I'm just this monster that causes harm. And yeah, there were definitely, like, emotional repercussions from experiencing this level of abuse. And I do have complex ptsd and it's just. Yeah, it's. I don't. I don't even know how to succinctly wrap that up, but.

Life After Utah and Finding Independence

John Dehlin [02:27:24] So did you end up graduating from high school and getting out? Like, I guess getting out of Utah?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:27:31] I took a ged because the other part of that is, like, when you go through something that is so emotionally niche and specific and unlike your peers in such an extreme way, being around, like, going to high school felt. It just felt so insane to me just to, like, just go. I would have had my junior year with, like, having just experienced very real life, adult level emotional turmoil of, like, homelessness and sexual abuse. I mean, the sexual abuse was. But the. Just like all of this, like, it just felt so silly. High school felt silly at that point. But I also, I also really. This is the kicker, though, because I was still 17, I wanted to Go to college really bad. And I. I knew I could. I knew I was capable of doing that. But my parents refused to give permission because I wasn't emancipated. I was. I was technically still under their care. They refused to give permission for me to sign up for school. So then I didn't do that. And then it was just like, years of then and then. And then, like, I had to just work, and I didn't have any skills, and I. I had very low. My emotional stability was not great. And so I just had to. I worked multiple jobs for. Until I was like, 25, when I figured out I liked art and I started tattooing. And. Yeah, it's the uphill battle of becoming a happy, successful person in the wake of no familial support and severe abuse is just. It's inexplicable to describe. And in a lot of ways, I do feel really lucky that I have been able to create the life that I have and to have the friends that I have and the community and the chosen family that I have. I feel very, very fortunate. Nurture nature. I don't know why I was able to find my way through it, but I'm very grateful for it.

John Dehlin [02:30:02] So did you end up leaving Utah? Escaping? You're in Seattle now. So how did you get from Utah? Also, I'm just curious. Were you ever allowed to go home for Thanksgiving or Christmas? Did you ever have a ch. To, like, say, mom and dad, I'm being held hostage. Help me. Anything like that?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:30:24] You know, I was never allowed. I was never allowed to. I spoke to my family on the. My parents on the phone maybe, I think twice in the presence of my. Of Jody and my grandparents. And I think the second time, it was also with the bishop. So I was never allowed to speak to anyone. I was never allowed any sort of communication with anyone. Never allowed to go home, Never allowed any of that. I mean, I wasn't even, like, on my birthday, I would. Jody, no one said happy. And this is like. Sounds like in isolation. It sounds like such a trivial thing, but, like, she. Intentional. No one gave me any attention on my birthday. And she then informed me, I know it's your birthday. You don't deserve any, like, any. Any attention for it. Like, you don't. You didn't earn. You didn't earn it. You didn't earn any. Like, earn the right to feel special. So, no, no, no. Holidays were not. Not celebrated for me. I didn't receive presents. I didn't receive. No. So, yeah, I ended up leaving Utah when I was 22. And I'm really grateful I did because even though I had already left the church, I'm sure you've experienced this, even if you're not, if you've left the church still is such a huge part of your life. And in Utah, when everyone in your community is also an ex member, so many people just bond on the, the stories and on the trauma and, and like, and, and in some ways, like, I'm so grateful for that. But then in other ways it was like I felt like I was stuck in this like perpetual choir of like pain and I, that I couldn't get away from it. That even though, even though I was like, I was just like, I wanted to be rid of the church fully, not just like not active, I wanted to stop talking about it. I wanted to meet someone and not and them to not know what Mormonism was. And so I ended up leaving. When I was 22, I moved, I moved to Seattle. I've moved a lot. I've moved a lot, a lot, a lot. So I moved to Seattle and then from Seattle I moved to la and from la I got a tattoo apprenticeship in Portland and then Portland and then I got a job in Salt Lake City. And at that point I was like, oh, I can maybe I can work things out with my family. They live in, they now live in Utah. And so I was like under this illusion that like being in the same state as them, I would be able to like find because I, I was still constantly hoping that one day we could work it out if I just try a little harder and. No, you have to have two parties willing to work anything out and you have to have reparations and acknowledgement. Then from Utah, I met my ex partner and then we moved back to Seattle for a job. And then in the last year I was living in LA for work and then I just moved back to Seattle. So it's been my plan now is to stay and learn how to stay and learn that side of things. Like I'm good at, I'm very good at adapting and change and movement. And now it's like I feel like I'm in this stage of life in my 30s of like really diving deep into community and diving deep into reciprocity and staying and building. So.

John Dehlin [02:34:22] Wow. Let me just ask you, because some don't realize it's a separate process. You can go through all this trauma in the church, in the Mormon Church, you can even leave the Mormon church, stop attending and still have beliefs and sometimes that's even more toxic when you're, quote, inactive and sinning. Kind of like, we call it a Jack Mormon within Mormonism, but your beliefs are still intact. That makes the shame even worse sometimes. Can you talk about whether there was ever a theological or a doctrinal or historical processing that you did about Mormon church truth claims in any fashion that maybe helped in your healing or not?

Leaving the Mormon Church

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:35:10] Yeah, I mean, what you're saying is very real. And when I talk about, when I. Especially when I talk to friends, that. Because I. Out of my friend group, I think I was, like, the first one to leave the church, and I've had my name removed off the records. I'm like, fully, fully out. But there's still things for over a decade that would. These things would come up that I was like, oh, I still am holding on to this belief. I wasn't even aware of it. Or, like, fear of alcohol, fear of. Of sex, fear of pornography, and. And still believing that, like, if I drink one beer or watch porn one time, that I'm immediately an addict, even though logically I knew different emotionally. Like, getting your heart and your head to line up is a really complicated process. And I talked to my friends about it, and they're like. It's like. It's like you're going through a second puberty and you have to recalibrate yourself to the real world. And when you have no understanding of boundaries or limits. And which is why I think a lot of people, when they leave, kind of go off the deep end in a similar way of, like, ramspringer of, like, people of Amish communities. Like, when heroin and beer and coffee and masturbation and orgies and all of when everything is in the same level of evil or bad or whatever. Like, again, going back to, like, the barometer of right and wrong. Like, you have a period of time of recalibrating that, and a lot of people get stuck in that. And a lot of people will get that. Maybe they'll start that journey and it's too shameful and it's too painful, and then they'll go back. And I think a lot of people will stay in this, like, gray space even if they don't actively believe in it. The conditioning is too painful, and the. It's too painful. The idea of losing your community, losing your family, losing. If you live in Utah or Idaho or any of those places, potentially losing your job, like, that's too painful. So it keeps them at least one foot in. I had to. Another thing is, like, you don't learn critical thought in orthodox religion that is the antithesis of orthodox religion is to not critically think. And so I had to, I took classes on critical thinking because I was, I felt like I was falling like susceptible to just being really gullible and believing authority or believing anyone that sounded like they knew what they were talking about, I was like, oh, they must know what they're talking about about because I had no previous understanding of what critical thought was or being allowed to challenge things. That's another thing is that you're not allowed to challenge anything in the church. And so you don't develop that muscle. And if you do challenge it, because I was challenging things, you are shamed for it. And then like that needed to be rooted out of you because that's actually ego and evil. And another layer to all of this is that when you leave the church, when you're sinning, you lose the Holy Spirit, right? Like that's what they tell you, you lose the guidance of the Holy Spirit. So if you are sinning and you're not feeling guilty, it's because you've lost the spirit. And so your intuition or your gut or you're like, your subconscious is not yours. It's actually the this, you have to earn it through being righteous, right? And so like learning how to trust yourself is a whole nother aspect of it. And that's really hard, especially as a femme person, like, like being conditioned your whole life that you have to like adhere or like listen to the priesthood because we don't have the priesthood, they do. And so you have to like everything that you think or believe or gut feelings is actually, you know, it's superseded by someone with a priesthood authority. And so learning how to trust yourself, learning how to develop right, like your own moral code of what right and wrong is for you is all like DIY from scratch, which is a very painful and difficult, a lot of trial and error, a lot of mistakes. But again, all of those things come with this layer of shame from this internalized conditioning and this internalized narrative of right and wrong from the Church. Leaving an orthodox religion is one of the hardest things I think anyone can do. Truly.

John Dehlin [02:40:00] Amen. So, so did you have to process the Book of Mormon? Did you have to process Joseph Smith? Did you have to process modern day prophets and the Book of Mormon and the law of chastity and word of wisdom? Did you have to deconstruct your Mormon beliefs and your Christian beliefs and your religious beliefs? And if so, how did you, if other people are going to need to do that. Do you want to talk about how that happened for you?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:40:30] It's. I think it's kind of funny how it happened to me. So when I was 22, I had a couple months, which is crazy to think about now, where I started going back to church, because I think for me, for. At first, it, like I. When I became, like, anti theist, like when I was. When I was 18, 19, that's how I identified was anti theist. I was so against religion on every level. But I think so much of that was coming from anger. Obvious, like reasonable anger and hurt. And it was more of an emotional reaction rather than a logical reaction. So there was a moment where I started going back to church. It was crazy. And the thing that Mormonism is very good at is community. And when you feel so isolated for so long and then suddenly you're surrounded, it feels really good. And so there was a moment with that. But then I was reading this book that my Mormon BYU housing roommate lent to me, which is just so funny to me, called you are what you think by David Stoop. And it's a Christian book. And it's really. I didn't finish it, so I don't know what the conclusion is, but everything that I read was really fascinating. And it was talking about generational abuse from prophet to son within the Bible and all of the issues of that. And in the middle of the book, it asks you a series of questions in different categories. And one of the categories was family. And the. The questions were something along the lines of, what is your relationship with God today? In what ways do you wish your relationship with God were different? And how does this relate to your relationship with your family? And I had this euphoric epiphany of, oh, my God. Everything that I was relating to God, to the macrocosm, was actually just an iteration, an expansion of my relationship in the micro to my father. Like, I need to work harder for his love. If I try a little harder, he's gonna, like, he's gonna pay attention to me, yada, yada, yada. And I in that, from reading that book, I made this realization that I don't think I ever actually believed in the church. And this, like, obsessed, obsessive kind of nature of religion was actually just an extension of trying to win approval from my dad. And so for me, that was when I realized that I intellectually was atheist as well. And I haven't had a moment of sense of wanting to go back. And so for me, that's. That was the Clarity that I needed that religion uses and hijacks moral principles and labels and monopolizes on them and labels it as their own and then also has an exclusive membership where you can't have happiness and community unless you also allow, you know, dogmatic doctrine. And that's just not the case. And the more and more I learn about human behavior and the more and more I learn about. I became really fascinated with morals and other religions and other ways of living. I read tons of like Sam Harris and Dawkins and I've read there's a really great book called the Righteous Mind that talks about like, the moral structures of conservative conservatives, liberals and libertarians and how like socioeconomics influences those behaviors and how genetics influence those behaviors. You can be genetically predisposed to. To have certain morals versus other morals. So I think self education has been a huge, huge part for me. Self education and. And therapy. I know therapy is very expensive and not accessible to everyone, especially, especially if you're in Utah. That was like a really scary thing is like, I did go to therapy a lot in Utah, but because of my trauma with therapy and the church, I was. So I wanted to have a secular therapist, which is just not really accessible in Utah unless you're in Salt Lake City. Yeah, a lot of trial and error and like, being willing to not throw. For me, allowing their. The reason why religion also works is because there is truth to it. The same reason, the same way that like a joke is funny is because there's usually some truth to it. So, yeah, like these higher moral ideas of like, treating people the way you want to be treated or not murdering people and living a life of honesty and like the obsessive nature of knowing your values was actually something that I'm really grateful for because that's. But now I get to decide what those values are for myself. Like the Young Women's Medallion. How like, you have all these different values, right? Like, I don't even remember divine nature

John Dehlin [02:46:26] and worth all that stuff.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:46:29] But like having a system where you build that structure within yourself and you look at them very concretely and very like, this is a value. Like that type of thinking is helpful when applied to your own systems, right? Like knowing what you stand for, knowing what you believe in, those are like positive values. Those are positive attributes. So it's like that's also a thing for me that. That has been a process of like, allowing there to be silver linings from being raised Mormon, allowing there to be things that I still hold on to, not, not doctrinally but just like the value of community, they're really great, great at that. And the value of. Or like the showing up for each other, you know, like those type, like, rallying calls that, like, those things are all positive, in my, in my opinion, positive things, but again, are not limited to religion. Those are just positive things that exist, that create connection, that exist outside of religion, which is part of, like, it drives me nuts when people are like, well, I know a good Mormon. They're really great, they're really nice. I'm like, I'm sure you do, of course, because they live high value or high moral lives. They are kind. They are. But that's not isolated to Mormonism. Like, that's just being a good person. And you can have that outside of religion. Like, in fact, you're probably going to. It's probably going to be better personal experience. It will be better because it also then allows you freedom to be who you are and not live in this, like, very minute, myopic view of who you should be.

John Dehlin [02:48:43] Yeah. I'll just say really quickly that unfortunately, one of the most beautiful as a Mormon, one of the most powerful teachings in Mormonism and in Christianity is this idea of a loving Christ that was sent to the earth to atone for our sins. And he suffered and bled and died so that we could be made clean and he loves us. That's, in theory, can be a really powerful, redemptive, inspiring, comforting teaching. But if you think about why Jody Hildebrandt was given so much power within the Mormon Church, I feel like intentionally or not, the Mormon Church needs its members to need the church. Because if the members don't need the church, why would they pay all the money to it? Why would they give all their time and their attention and their devotion to it? So how do you get members to need the church? You need them to feel broken. And so this theory of atonement in Jesus starts with the idea that we're all broken, that we're all sinners, and that we need Christ's atonement to make us well. And so this idea of sin develops and then what's the sin? What's a ubiquitous sin that we can put on almost everyone so that then they can feel like they need their bishop and the atonement and Jesus to be made clean. The answer is sex and masturbation and bad thoughts. So many people say, john, you're just sex obsessed. You're just masturbation obsessed. I would say, no, I think Mormonism is sex and masturbation and Pornography obsessed. And. Yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, I'm ranting.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:50:31] Oh no, no, no. It's just, it's. That's the like the religion has to be the cure and the disease. It creates the disease and then offers you a cure and so you're stuck in it. And 100% they are sex obsessed. My aunt was so obsessed with my sexuality and my sex life constantly. You're a sex addict, You're a masturbation addict. It was like her fixation on. It was weird. Like the fixation on like boys masturbating is weird. And like. Yeah, like. And when I meet people that are not raised in these types of environments, it's a non issue. You don't talk. It's like, it's just like a non issue. It's a not. It's just a thing that you do because it's healthy and pleasure and also can be connective. And it could be like it's self connective and it's all these wonderful things and like. But it's not like a fixation. And then it's like a non. It doesn't become a problem because it's not a fixation and it's not this like kind of like with kids or teenagers, when you make something taboo, they want to do it. And when it just isn't a taboo thing. It's just, it's, it just isn't a thing, you know? Yeah. Their obsession with it is. And, and because it's like it's the original sin. Right. Like sex is the, the, the thing like that is how we populate. It's the way that humans exist. It's the, it is the most fundamental primal parts of us. So of course we're gonna have issues with it or think about it like guaranteed, unless you're asexual. That's which is a very small part of. Part of the population. Like minute. Like it's just, it's the perfect thing to focus on if you want control. And they do because they want your money. And that's just that it's power, control. And the way you control is through fear. And Jody was very, very good at that. Very good at it.

John Dehlin [02:52:46] And she also had a $3.1 million home in St. George. Like she got super wealthy from monetizing the Mormon church's shame cycle.

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:53:00] She was. And when in 2011 or 10 or 2009, 2010, when I was there, she had a boat, had an rv, had a three story home in American Fork, she was already very wealthy and so the last 14 years of monopolizing and capitalizing on people's pains and then creating more problems and more pain and like just, it just becomes this self perpetuating cycle to continue her becoming so wealthy and powerful. Like, yeah, she has made so much money off of this, off of destroying people's lives and then convincing people that actually she's saving you. And actually you need saving. And actually, now that we're talking, you actually, you have those types of problems too. And those types of problems. And now that I'm looking at it clearly, you probably need even more intense surgery. Like, it's, it's just, it's really sick. It's sickening. And like to think about all of the people that she lives, that she's had access to and that we. The thing that, oh, it makes me so angry is thinking about in 2012 when I was planning on taking her to court and no one believed me and no one took me seriously. And in fact, I was completely, not only invalid, but just like discouraged and shamed into even thinking about doing that. All the people that would have not been harmed, these children that would not have been abused, the people that saw me duct taped, the people that saw me being abused in the church that did absolutely nothing, the people that could have been saved from being harmed if they would have. And I know that it's complicated and complex and people didn't know what to do. I know that. And by not doing anything, you are doing something, you are doing nothing, and you are allowing it to happen. And, and I know it's systemic and I know that it's perpetuated by the culture. I understand that. And it needs to change. It needs to change. And, and to use their favorite thing to like, because of all, like the Republican stuff that also goes on with the church, they used, you know, to protect your children. If you want to actually protect your children, you need to be able to talk about things and not have things be taboo and to voice things. In actuality, empower your children. Empower them and believe them. That's how you raise a generation that is strong and that can make changes. And, and it's just, it's just so insane. It's, it's really, it's really. Yeah, it's just really, really, really crazy to think about all of the repercussions that Jody has. Jody's behavior and power that was afforded her by the church.

John Dehlin [02:56:27] Yeah. So I guess this, I mean, this is a perfect time to sue her in theory, but I'm guessing you have been advised that the statute of limitations has run out. And you couldn't sue her or the church?

Reopening the Case and Pursuing Justice

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:56:44] No. So I talked to the head detective two days ago. Yesterday. Two days ago. And they're actually reopening my case that I filed when I was 16. So. And that is in hopes of helping the case that is currently being with these children, hoping to be able to corroborate those two cases. I didn't even consider suing the. The church until, like, very recently. Like. Like in the last five days of, like, even that being a possibility. I don't know when. How this is going to go, because I also know that these. These cases, like, talking to the detective, these things take years. So I don't know what this is going to look like in the near future. I don't know how this is going to go. But they're reopening my case, so steps are being made.

John Dehlin [02:57:43] Well, just. There's so many. So many. I hope, Jesse, I hope you'll be able to go back through the live comments and just see the amount of love and respect that is just coming through constantly. I could never do them justice, but I do want to say I'll share, You know, I'll share. One of thousands of just effusively praising comments. Mommy House Issues writes, this young woman is highly intelligent and should be a therapist. She has summed up and described Jodi's motivations and beliefs in a crystal clear way. She was so insightful. Wow. Amazing show. And then another comment that was made that immediately hit my mind because I've interviewed Sarah Edmondson from the NXIVM cult, Leah Remini and Mike Rinder of the Scientology cult. I've interviewed Amber skora from the JDubs. So many people that have written amazing memoirs. Also, the Book of Separation. I'm forgetting the name of the woman that I interviewed from Orthodox Judaism, but your story combined with your intellect and wisdom is just perfect for a memoir. And so I'll just share this comment from Candace W. Are you considering Jesse Hildebrandt writing a book? It would be so helpful to so many people. Not that it's your burden or obligation to do that. Have you thought about that?

Jessi Hildebrandt [02:59:22] Sorry. Yeah. I mean, yes. And for so long, no one believed me. And I mean, like friends did, of course, and like people in my life did, but for so long, the people in power didn't believe me. And also, like, still navigating the. The multitudes of, like, Jody's voice still rings in my head a lot. And so constantly hearing The. You're just manipulating. You're just. You're just. You want attention all. You just want attention for this. And also thinking, like, what the. Do I know? I'm. I'm 30, I'm a baby. I don't know. But I have. I have thought about it. I have considered it. I think that the process of the next, like this next chapter of my life stemming from Jody's arrest of. Of processing this, I think being able to put it down in words in like a succinct way may lend itself to that. I don't. I don't know yet. It's. It's a complicated. It's a complicated question, I think. Yeah, I do. I do hope that I can help

John Dehlin [03:00:53] people

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:00:56] in some way in somehow of like, helping people, especially in the process of leaving an orthodox religion and cults. Like, I think it's an experience that only if you've been through it, can you truly understand the gravity of it. I would love to have some sort of something. I don't know what that would be. I am planning on going to school. That's something like in the next five years that, like, is. Is a goal of mine is to go to school and studying some form of sociology and, And. And probably linked with psychology, but not, Not. Not to become a therapist, I don't think, but more so like studying patterns and cultural touch points and how cultural touch points change behavior and influence behavior. And we see that in the microcosms of these religions. But thank you. I mean, that those. I mean, I. I didn't even see that there was a place to see the comments until right now.

John Dehlin [03:02:09] Oh, yeah, you'll want to go back and read them. There's been tens of thousands of comments. We've had a live stream audience sustained of about 7,000, which is. This is officially the most viewed live stream in the history of Mormon Stories podcast.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:02:26] That is surreal. This is absolutely surreal. Genuinely, I completely gave up on the idea of anyone ever hearing or believing or seeing what happened. I. I'm still very much in shock. Like, even seeing. Even seeing when you sent me the thumbnail of this. Of like, what this episode's gonna be, seeing my face next to Jody's. I had. I almost had a panic attack. Like, I started hyperventilating and had to calm myself down. Like, this is.

John Dehlin [03:03:05] It's.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:03:06] Again, I don't even have. I don't even have the words yet to explain, like, what this has meant for me and my healing and hopefully so many more people, because I know she's hurt so many people. So I hope so much that the people that have been victimized by her and her therapies are feeling some sense of vindication and also allowing themselves to feel whatever comes up. And I'm sure a lot of anger is coming up, and I hope that they are giving themselves the space and the grace to feel that.

John Dehlin [03:03:43] Beautiful. Well, really quickly, Jesse, is there a way, if somebody wants to just throw you some support? Some people said that you might need therapy just to process doing this interview. In terms of what it would be like to publicly discuss this and relive the trauma. Is there a Venmo account? Is there a PayPal account? If people just want to express their support for you, I'm going to say it financially. Would you allow us to step up for you in that way? Wow.

Closing Reflections and Listener Support

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:04:24] I. That is. Wow. I mean, I do have a Venmo. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:04:31] What is it? Do you mind sharing? Sure.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:04:36] It's. Wow. This is crazy. It's Jesse J, E S S I tattooer. T A T, T, O O E R. Just Jesse with. No, not with no E. People always want to put an E in there. Jesse Tattooer.

John Dehlin [03:04:53] Okay, I'm sharing it. Oh, go ahead. Sorry, it's just.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:04:58] It's the same as my Instagram. Jesse Tattooer. No one. I hope no one feel any form of obligation for that. That's incredibly generous and so sweet to even consider.

John Dehlin [03:05:14] Well, it's absolutely the least. The least, I mean, given. And I'm finding it. I'm trying to find it to paste it in. Maybe Maven or Julia can send me that link. But just given what you're giving to all of us, the wisdom, the sacrifice, the teachings that you're giving us and all that you've experienced, I think there are many people, including me personally, in Mormon Stories Podcast, that want to find a small way to give back.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:05:52] So people. Guys, this is crazy.

John Dehlin [03:05:59] So please, I'll put this on the screen really quick. If you're able to please give Jesse, through Venmo, your support.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:06:14] People are already. This is crazy. This is. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me space to talk about this. Thank you for having this platform for people. I'm in shock right now, so thank you.

John Dehlin [03:06:35] Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you. Jesse Hildebrandt. You know, I never know what's hard is when we do interviews like this, I never want people to be defamed. I never want people to be maligned. I never want people to be falsely accused. And then if somebody on your end has been through so much, you just never know how much psychological damage they might have experienced in addition to the real abuse that you, you'd never. And you and I hadn't even really spoken by phone, so I, I had, I had no idea how wise and eloquent and profound your story and thoughtful your story was going to be. So this is, this is one of the most important interviews I've ever done. And I'll say that now. And I'm not saying to be flattering. I'm saying that to say thank you. To just say thank you. Jesse Hildebrandt.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:07:41] I'm honestly speechless right now. I'm so beyond. It's beyond words like thank you, thank you, thank you for letting me share this. I. You can't even imagine how powerful and healing this has been. I thank you.

John Dehlin [03:08:07] It's our pleasure. Also, it looks like you have a website. So jessietattooer.com is that website is very old.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:08:16] Instagram is.

John Dehlin [03:08:17] But people can, People can. They can book you for a tattoo. Like, how cool would it be if people start showing up and hiring you as a client? I'll find your Instagram right now as well.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:08:29] Thank you. Yeah, if you guys are in Seattle and you want to get tattooed, books are open. I would love that. I also do guest spot in Salt Lake City at Yellow Rose often.

John Dehlin [03:08:42] What is that? Is that, Is that a tattoo place in Salt Lake?

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:08:46] Yeah, it's, It's a really great shop.

John Dehlin [03:08:49] Okay, so instagram.com jessietattooer on Instagram, follow her like her and, and, and. Well, let's do a meetup. Let's plan it where you come to Salt Lake City. I'll tell all my viewers and listeners you're coming. They'll fully book up your tattoo shop and we'll, and we'll, we'll. We'll have you creating some tattoos for people. How does that sound?

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:09:16] Oh, my. I would love that so much. This has been such a surreal experience. Honestly, it's like outer body right now. Well, I would love that. And if anyone that has experienced specifically with Jody or anything of this kind, this nature, if they want to talk, you can email me. Especially like anyone that's been victimized by Jody. I hope even if you don't feel comfortable coming forward publicly, like I'm. My email is open. I would, I would love, love to talk.

John Dehlin [03:10:03] Beautiful. Well, it's not your job to be a healer to other people, but what I can say for sure, with a PhD in psychology, is that if you decide you want to be, participate more in the healing Space. I know there's a great work that is there and if all you do is just get well and live a happy, peaceful life, that's 100% acceptable. Yeah.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:10:37] Thank you so much. Yeah, I really appreciate.

John Dehlin [03:10:40] Somebody just wrote, somebody just wrote, John, get a tattoo from Jesse. That would be an awesome episode. I have, I have two children. I have two children with lots of tattoos. In fact, one of my children's self tattoos, which is mind blowing. But I will make this promise right now. If I ever get a tattoo, it's going to be from you, Jesse Hildebrandt.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:11:09] I will hold you to that. I will hold you to that. Oh, your kids would absolutely love it. You'd be the best dad.

John Dehlin [03:11:16] Maybe Margi and I will get a tattoo. Maybe it'll be a taper. No, I'm just, that's an inside joke. All right, all right. Well, Jesse Hildebrandt, we just cannot thank you enough for this episode. It's been magical. We wish you healing self care and if we can ever support you in any way, just me, Mormon Stories, the OPA Stories foundation, but also my viewing and listening community. I know we will step up to help you. So I hope you'll feel comfortable reaching back out to us if we can ever give, give to you for the gift you've given us today.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:11:59] Thank you so much. Honestly, I, I, I have, I'm out of words. I have no more. If I could, if I could just like vulcan my emotions to you to show how appreciative, I would, I. The work that you do is so important. Leaving religion, navigating religion is so complicated and so messy and to have any sort of cultural touch points to like, to remind yourself or to like to be seen that you're not crazy. This is really hard and you're not alone. Like so valuable, beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:12:43] And any final, any final things, tags, accounts, requests, anything you want to let our audience know about before we go?

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:12:57] I don't think so. I mean, I just, that, yeah, I don't think so. You guys have been amazing.

John Dehlin [03:13:06] All right.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:13:07] It's just. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:13:09] All right, well, Jesse Hildebrandt, thank you so much for your story. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories today. And we just wish you all the healing and growth that anyone could imagine. We hope you come back. People are already saying, please come back to Mormon Stories.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:13:26] I would love to, honestly.

John Dehlin [03:13:28] All right, be well, Be well, Jesse. Thank you. All right, thanks everyone for joining us today. In lieu of donating to Mormon Stories, the Oba Stories foundation today, please donate to Jesse hildebrandt at the tags we've already given. They'll be in the show notes as well. Please send her some love, some financial support for all she's done for our community today and for justice. Thanks to Gerardo and Julia and Maven and Brooklyn and everyone who makes the Open Stories foundation possible to our board and thanks to Jordan McKay, the amazing YouTube channel. Not only did they help us do an episode about this, but also Jordan McKay helped moderate the the live stream today because the chats were so off the chart. Please subscribe to Jordan McKay, their YouTube channel as well. They deserve support. They're great people and if you don't mind, please like this episode, please subscribe to our YouTube channel and you can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, etc. The subscriptions and the likes help with the algorithm. And if we want if everybody right now likes this episode, we've already gotten well over the 2000 mark in terms of likes for this episode. It's over three, but we've got 6,000 still on the stream. If everybody likes and shares this episode, the algorithm will send it to the moon. And that will not only help Jesse make a lot of money, but also it'll help the story get out there. Your head is in your hand. Why are you laughing? Jesse?

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:15:11] I just beside myself, honestly. It's just. I just never in my wildest dreams would I think that this was even a possibility. I had given up on ever seeking or seeing justice being held and I'm horrified that it hadn't come to what it came to. And I am just so beyond happy and grateful that it finally has happened.

John Dehlin [03:15:39] Beautiful. All right, Jesse, thank you so much. Take care and hope you come back soon. Be well and thanks everyone for joining us today. The commenters have been fabulous. Please be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Find an ethical therapist Mormon Church Stop the shame cycle. Stop the obsession with pornography and masturbation. Stop the unethical practices of therapy. Stop recommending unethical therapists to do unethical work for the Mormon people. Get educated about the therapists that you seek and get educated about mental health and sexual health. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Jessi Hildebrandt [03:16:35] Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.