Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast, LDS Discussions Edition. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It's March 1, 2023 and today we are continuing our series on Joseph Smith's prophecies and revelations. Today we're going to be covering Joseph Smith's failed revelations. This is part of the LDS discussion series which is based on the good work of our dear friend mike@ldsdiscussions.com Mike has put together, I don't know, 50 to 100 really good essays. It's a wealth of information where Mike, as an adult convert to the Mormon Church who learned about the problematic truth claims of the church and the problematic history of the church after he converted and married a Mormon woman and had children, wanted to dispassionately and from an evidence based and a fact based perspective, just analyze the Mormon Church and its truth claims in history. And so we are now on episode 37 of this series here on Mormon Stories Podcast. And just as a reminder, you can either enjoy this series integrated into the weekly Mormon stories podcast and YouTube feed or or you can find dedicated feeds for this series under the LDS Discussions brand either on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. And we have on Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel, we have a playlist where you can just watch all these episodes in sequence. And so that's what we're going to be doing today. And we are super grateful to have with us Mike and Nemo in the studio. Mike, why don't you say hi to our audience?

Mike [00:01:48] Hey everybody. Good to be back for apparently number 37. So hopefully this one will be. I think this will be a really fun one actually. So this will be a good one for you to get a little bit of refresher from the first two Revelation episodes and hopefully connect the dots from the earlier episodes in a way that'll be a little more meaningful now that we've done so much of the groundwork leading up to this. So glad to be back.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] Yeah, and you make a good point. We really, really do emphasize in these series that they build on each other. We're going to make constant references to past episod. And so please consider if this is the first time you've stumbled on. Stop. Go back to the very beginning. Watch episodes 1 through 36 and 37 will be at least a little more valuable. And of course we have back with us in studio, actually remote in our UK studio. Nemo. What's up, Nemo?

Nemo [00:02:40] You know, if you start this like today, it'll take you a month to get through all of them. So better get started.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Yeah. Oh, you're saying if you do one a day, it'll take over a month. Yeah.

Nemo [00:02:53] So crack on.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] And, of course, Nemo is the main voice on the Nemo, the Mormon YouTube channel that you should go subscribe to and check out. And of course, he's one of the leaders of the Brit Vengers, which is a group of UK podcasters and YouTubers. So shout out. Much love to the Brit Vengers. Anyway, glad. Glad to have you, Nemo.

Nemo [00:03:12] Yeah, great to be here. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] All right, so, Mike, I guess it's time to jump into today's episode. Should we go to the first slide?

Mike [00:03:21] Yeah, we can go to the first one. We originally had planned last week's episode and this episode to be kind of one, and I think we realized it was best to split it, and so it works out well. So our first episode was kind of about the patterns and the threads you see in Joseph Smith's revelations and kind of what they could tell us about how Joseph Smith implemented Revelation. And now this episode is going to look at Joseph Smith's revelations and prophecies that ultimately fail. And so we wanted to start by just looking at what the Bible tells us about failed prophecies. And so, as we mentioned last week, we're not covering every single revelation has problems, but we want to look at some of the ones where we can really test the claims being made by Joseph Smith. And so, as Nemo said, if the first 36 episodes don't make it clear that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God, I would like to think that failed prophecies would be really hard to ignore. And so this is from Deuteronomy 18, and it kind of discusses how we can know if it's a prophet of God or not. And it says, and if thou say in thine heart, how shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken. But. But the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously. Thou shalt not be afraid of him. And so you got to keep these two verses in mind as we look at these. These different revelations and prophecies from Joseph, because it will allow us to know, like, is this someone who was a prophet of God that we should believe? Which, of course, would lead us to continue potentially to believe that Russell Nelson is a prophet today? Or is Joseph Smith speaking for Himself and not for God. And therefore there's no reason to think that, say, Russell Nelson today would be a prophet, because if Joseph wasn't, Russell Nelson surely is not a prophet. So it's a really important topic, and obviously it should be one because of the fact that we could test some of these claims being made by Joseph Smith that even a believing member can listen to. Even if you ultimately want to choose to believe, as Russell Nelson would say, but you can acknowledge the fact that there are revelations and prophecies made by Joseph Smith that we can test that ultimately are not going to come to pass.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] There's at least two things that are kind of funny about that scripture for me. One is that it's kind of stating the obvious. It's like the stating the obvious department. It's basically saying if a prophet prophesies about something and it doesn't come true, then he's not a prophet. I'm thinking, wow, that's an important scripture that we need to have. But the other thing is it says that if the prophecies don't come true, then you shall not be afraid of him. And I took a double take because I was expecting it to say something different. But then it must be speaking about being afraid as a virtue. Like you should be afraid of a prophet if he's a true prophet. But if he's not a true prophet, then there's no need to be afraid. I think that's what it's saying. How do you read it, Nemo?

Nemo [00:06:22] I read it as like, you don't need to be afraid of him. And it's just like, ignore him, move on, don't listen to him, don't pay my attention. Which is interesting because it's. You always look for. I think there's a pattern here of caveats. So there's always a caveat that will kind of save Joseph if. Because if someone looks at one of his prophecies and goes, oh, well, he hasn't achieved it, then there's got to be that get out clause where he can be like, oh, well, but if that's the case, then. And I think what he's saying is, well, then you don't need to be afraid of him or anything he may say or anything he says, because he's not a real prophet. So you can kind of just ignore him, which would be the best outcome for him, rather than being actually taken to task over declaring being a false prophet if someone were that way inclined.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Well, it feels like that Old Testament model of like, you need to fear God. You know what I mean? And I just, I'm not a big fan of that whole guilt, shame, fearing God kind of thing personally, but it's interesting. All right, so, Mike, let's go to the next slide.

The 1891 Second Coming Prophecy

Mike [00:07:21] Yeah, and this is one that I think we're gonna. You, if you've done the deep dive into Mormonism you've heard about, but effect. Effectively, Joseph Smith is going to state that the second coming of the Lord will happen in 1891. And so in February of 1835, Joseph Smith is in Kirtland, Ohio, and he says the following, or I guess this is from the Minute Book, because it's writing down what Joseph said in front of an audience. And it says, President Smith arose and stated the reason why this meeting was called. It was this, God had commanded it, and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion, our trials, sufferings, etc. He said God had not designed all of this for nothing, but he had it in remembrance yet. And those who went to Zion with the determination to lay down their lives if necessary, it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh, even 56 years, should wind up the scene. And so 56 years later, from 1835, would be 1891, which obviously, as we know, did not include the Second coming. And from an apologetic standpoint, they're going to say the revelation wasn't actually a failure because there's this caveat that if Joseph Smith should live, live this long. But this revelation from minute book one makes no requirement of Joseph Smith living until 1891. As you could see, there's no mention of that. And furthermore, and we're going to get into this in our final revelation episode about patriarchal blessings, there are a lot of patriarchal blessings that make clear that Jesus would return during the lifetime of the early members. And that really shows that Joseph Smith was teaching the early church that he was being told by God that we were literally in the latter days, like the final years. And so in this case, Joseph Smith is saying that that the basically the second coming happened in 1891. Obviously, that that just simply did not happen.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Now, Mike, Mike or Nemo, some, either of you may know this or may not. I've always associated that prophecy with the. The First Manifesto. When, I guess, was it Wilford Woodruff Basically, you know, basically made the statement that polygamy would cease, even though it didn't cease, that that basically the saints, you know, obviously the church was named the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. People have been waiting for Jesus Second Coming for two millennia. But, you know, the LDS Church was a part of this millennialist tradition that the Jehovah's Witnesses also emerged from. So this idea of Jesus coming soon was absolutely a crucial part of the founding of our church. And I always associated kind of the 1890, 1891 manifesto as sort of like, no, Joseph, Joseph. God implemented polygamy through Joseph. And we're going to hold out until Jesus comes. But then if Jesus doesn't come by the time Joseph Smith prophesied, which was around 1890, 1891, oh, well, maybe, maybe Jesus isn't coming. Okay, we're going to give up polygamy. Can either of you speak to whether or not that's a meaningful association or whether that's just a total coincidence about that timing?

Nemo [00:10:44] It's an interesting association, certainly. I'm just trying to think whether. Because to give up almost on waiting for God, I wonder whether rather than that, it was more to be a distraction from the fact that he hadn't turned up. Whereas they're like, oh, well, we've got this major doctrinal shift and we can tie it in with, you know, around this time when people are waiting for things to happen, because people that were alive when Joseph Smith made this prophecy would have been alive then. They would have been old, but they would have been alive. So, you know, you've got, you've got those people that are going to be like, well, 1891. Wasn't Jesus meant to come? And they can spin it, I'm sure, in many ways as, oh, well, it's the fulfillment of something.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Yeah, okay, interesting.

Mike [00:11:26] Yeah, I don't mean well. I mean, I think with the kind of the polygamy manifestos, those were really prompted by the fact that the government was on the door of the church basically ready to take their, their property, the, you know, the temple, all that. So I, I tend to think it's more of a coincidence just because of the fact that I don't think, you know, unless you want to really kind of give the kind of the, the church speak of saying that God had the government knocking on the door at that very time so that they could then give this. Right. You know, the manifesto at that time to line up with the date. But I mean, from a, like a common sense standpoint, I think it just happened to be that they had no other choice. I mean, the church was holding out as long as they could to keep polygamy because it's the new and everlasting covenant. And so they waited until they really had no choice but to either remove it so the government would get off their back or risk losing all of their property to the feds. And so I don't think it had anything to do with that necessarily, outside of just the fact that the timing lined up.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Okay, all right. Well, if our viewers or listeners have any, you know, they almost always have information to add in the comments on YouTube, so we welcome any additional feedback or input on that. The only other thing I'll say is, as someone with the training in psychology, it was always mind blowing to me, whether it's Rulin Jeffs and Warren Jeffs prophesying the end of the world, you know, for 2002, when the salt Lake City Olympics, you know, were going to be held, or whether it's the multiple times within the Jehovah's Witness movement where an actual date was picked up and it came and went and people remained believers. It's a really fascinating and important psychological dynamic to note that oftentimes when a prophecy fails to happen, if the blame can be redirected at the members or if somehow the members can be convinced that God wanted the change, oftentimes a failed prophecy reliably leads to an increase in faith by the members instead of a decrease in faith. And that's why the Jehovah's Witnesses have been able to survive and thrive after three, four or five failed, you know, end of the world predictions over the past hundred, 150 years. Check out my episodes with Lloyd Evans, The Jehovah's Witness YouTuber, if you want to learn more about that. I just, I just had to mention that. But anyway, Joseph Smith had a failed prophecy about when Jesus was coming. I think that's your point, Mike.

Mike [00:13:55] Yeah, no, and it's true. And we're going to actually, near the end, there's a great example of what you just said about how people who lived during his time, you know, saw these revelations fail and believed even more strongly. And you see that today in 2023 as well. And when we talk about that period of time that the Mormon Church was started, you know, the Seven Day Advent, the Seventh Day Adventists were basically formed on a false revelation. And I think they have more members than the church, the Mormon Church does worldwide. So it just goes to show that, like our, our brains are hardwired sometimes when we believe something's going to happen and it doesn't, to find some excuse for it and to double down. So, yeah, that's absolutely a theme we're going to see really through these episodes on Revelation and, and really through the, the episodes that we're going to do towards the end about doubts and spiritual witnesses and stuff where, you know, we are, we're wired to believe in, even against evidence that's right in front of our face. So it's an interesting and kind of depressing part of our human psyche.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] Yeah. All right, well, let's go to the next slide, which is a prophecy about the fall and overthrow of the U.S. government.

Prophecy About the Fall of the US Government

Mike [00:15:01] Yeah. And this one is really one. When I remember reading this one as I started doing the deep dive, I'd never heard of it until then. It just is one of those jaw dropping ones for me. So this is 1843 and Joseph Smith is going to make the following prophecy about the future of the US Government if they did not grant the church basically reparations for the wrongs that were committed against the members. And so he says, and this is from the history of the church, this is not like some third hand account that's, you know, found 100 years later or something. Says, I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers, that in a few years, repeat in a few years, the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished. And so that I think speaks for itself. And now there's going to be a second prophecy that was printed in the Millennial Star, which is a church owned publication. Again, says, not anti Mormon or anything like that. And it says, while discussing the petition to Congress I prophesied by virtue of the holy priesthood vested in me and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that if Congress will not hear our petition and grant us protection, they shall be broken up as a government and God shall damn them and there shall be nothing left of them, not even a grease spot. And these two revel, these two prophecies by Joseph Smith. The government did not provide any of the payments requested by Joseph Smith. They did not give them protection, as we obviously know, from Nauvoo and all that. And yet the government still stands almost 180 years later, arguably the most powerful government in the world. There is absolutely no way to reconcile the prophecies of Joseph Smith here with the history. And to conclude this was anything but a completely failed prophecy. And the fact that Joseph Smith says in a few years there is no way out, because I know an apologetic. My mind immediately thought the apologetic response will be that's still to come. But Joseph Smith in a few years like this is.

Nemo [00:17:01] I've got an apologetic response.

Mike [00:17:02] All right, let's hear it. Yeah, I know where you're going. I know where you're going. Let's go, let's hear it.

Nemo [00:17:07] The government is not the constitutional governing body of the United States of America. The government is the current sitting people in those positions, like Secretary of State, like president, like, etc.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] That's weak sauce. That's weak.

Nemo [00:17:20] Those people, when they're gone, that government's been overthrown. You know, I'm saying that's like, that's

John Dehlin [00:17:25] like a British interpretation of the word government, right? Because, yeah, like if Tony Blair gets voted out, if Tony Blair gets voted out, they call it a new government when a new Prime Minister gets voted in. Right, yeah.

Nemo [00:17:38] So Rishi Sunak, the current Prime Minister UK will say this government, and he's very much talking to the duration as which he is Prime Minister and the cabinet that he has assembled and all the ministers around him. So you want to push that perspective out there. That would be, from a British reading of it, that would be the get out clause would be like, well, the moment that, that four year term is over, then. So in that sense, if you were to look at it that way, it's an eminently achievable prophecy. It's not really a prophecy, it's just saying the government will change in a few years. And you're like, oh cool.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] But not by any act of God, just by the fact that there are

Nemo [00:18:13] term limits by the dint of four year terms. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike [00:18:16] I mean by that logic you could make a prophecy and say, I prophesy in the name of the Lord that my tree outside is going to lose its leaves and create new leaves next year. Like that's, that's the, the, the apologetic I usually hear is people will say the government was overthrown during the Civil War. And my response is like, no, it wasn't like, it's, I've heard that so many times where they'll say Joseph Smith was right, the Civil War happened. The government was thrown into complete chaos. But again, read what Joseph Smith wrote. Like that. That apologetic is so bad that you want to laugh at it, except people really do believe that that's an answer. And so that's where I really thought you were going. But like I said, well, that is just as bad. To even. To even make that claim when the government, the same government before the Civil War, was the one that beat the Confederacy and remained, is just so terrible. Apologetics, if we read the Revelation,

John Dehlin [00:19:07] not be so much as a potsherd left, and there shall be nothing left of them, not even a grease spot. That's pretty definitive, right?

Mike [00:19:16] It's very.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] Yeah.

Mike [00:19:17] Then that's why Nemos wouldn't work, because you can't say there's nothing left, not even a grease spot. Joseph Smith is not thinking in British political terms anyways. As we know from the Book of Mormon, it's very much American exceptionalism. And I don't mean that as a shot against American. I mean, again, I mean, it is a shot that the Book of Mormon is clearly written by someone who loves and believes that America is the chosen land. And so Joseph Smith is clearly referring to the. Basically the structure of the US Government. And maybe we'll get into this in our later episodes, but remember that around this time, Joseph Smith is starting the Council of 50. He's voted King of the world. They believe that they're creating a structure of like a theocratic government that's going to replace the US Government. This just shows that Joseph Smith, at this point is kind of getting a little bit too big for, you know, he's getting a little bit too. Too confident in himself. And I think that you can now see that he's just. I mean, he's just making stuff up that is very testable in 2023. And yes, in every possible way here, Joseph Smith shows that he's not speaking for God or God, as I mentioned last episode, is so powerless that can't. That God can actually fulfill his. His prophecies to his prophets, which we talked about last episode, because the God of Mormonism is one of the most powerless characters you're going to see in religion because of all of the different promises that are made, especially as we're going to talk about even today, and the fact that they never happen.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Yeah.

Mike [00:20:41] So then you have to say, well, are these. Are the people that claim to speak for God making it up? Which is what I would obviously go with. Or is God so powerless that he's going to tell people he's going to do stuff and then just kind of, you know, duck off to the side when it doesn't happen. So.

Nemo [00:20:52] And if you come across. If you come across someone who makes the kind of apologetic argument that I just tried to make, then you can very swiftly accuse them of presentism, which is normal. Apologist Apologetics 101 is to accuse someone of presentism. But actually, that sort of apologetic would be, by definition, presentism, because you would be judging Joseph Smith's statement by my modern understanding of the term government and my foreign understanding to him of the term government.

Mike [00:21:20] So, yeah, I mean.

John Dehlin [00:21:21] So, yeah, yeah. So Mike and Nemo, I was going to offer a different. Slightly different apologetic. And that's sort of a more progressive or liberal Mormon apologetic that, you know. Well, it's even based in the. In the. You'll find these quotes by, like, Brigham Young or others where it's like, well, it's, you know, you have to say, thus saith the Lord. If you're a prophet, you have to say, thus saith the Lord, or it's just an opinion, or you've got some quote from Brigham Young or others saying, you know, a prophecy only counts as a prophecy when the prophet is speaking as such, but when he's speaking as a man, it's not a prophecy. And then another sort of derivative of that is, well, okay, maybe Joseph Smith said it, but it was never canonized. It was never incorporated into the Doctrine and Covenants. And, you know, and this is kind of how the Church is currently seeming to, you know, seeming to characterize how we can know what a true prophecy is or true doctrine. You know, like the proclamation on the Family. It's not. It hasn't been voted on by the First Presidency and the quorum of the 12, all the members voted on it. And then it's added to the canon. And so I guess they've, over time, put up these kind of barriers to say that prophets are still allowed to speak as men. Sometimes they're speaking as men, sometimes they're speaking as prophets. We can't always know when they're speaking as which. Unless the First Presidency, the quorum of the 12, the full membership, all vote on it, and it's added to the Scriptures, and then it qualifies as prophecy such that then you can decide whether or not it's a failed prophecy. Now, do you guys have a response to that?

Nemo [00:23:20] Yeah. I mean, then it doesn't matter if he says, I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel or that I prophesied by Virtue of the holy priest invested in me and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] It wasn't canonized, bro. It wasn't canonized, my brother.

Nemo [00:23:36] My bad.

Mike [00:23:37] Okay, so two things. One is here, Nemo just answered your first one, Joseph Smith here, he's not just being like I'm saying, saying his name of Jesus Christ. He's like, I'm saying this with the power of the priesthood in the name of the God of Israel. He's going full out. So that's number one. He absolutely is, without any question saying, I am saying this as the one person who could speak for God. This is happening. That's part one. And part two is a very simple fact. If you want to make these the more progressive, I would actually argue apologetic because it's not progressive. It's. It's trying to cover up a problem, which is to say that when these things don't come to pass, it's simply because it wasn't canonized. Then why should any person watch a minute of General Conference? Because everything those people say is just the opinion of men until the Church votes on it. So as far as I'm concerned, I don't care what Russell Nelson says until it's canonized. Because until then it's just the mind of a 97 year old man who's been wrong about a lot of things throughout his lifetime and made up a lot of stories which we do need to do an episode on. So my point is if, if we can't take their word as the word of God until it's voted on by the Church, then I'm not going to listen to a word they say until it's voted on because it's, it's completely pointless until then anyways. It's like, it's like reading the rough draft of a script which, which is going to change anyways, so what's the point? So I guess my apolog, my response is because you're right, those are very common apologetics is if you're going to apply that logic that we can't really take it as a prophecy until it's voted on and canonized, then you have to apply it to 2023 and say that every word out of the mouths of, you know, Russell Nelson, Dallin Oaks is meaningless until it's voted on. So why should we bother giving them any attention?

John Dehlin [00:25:13] Yeah. Nemo, anything you want to add?

Nemo [00:25:15] No. Amen. That is the way it works. If that is the line of thinking that you want to go down.

Mike [00:25:21] Yeah, it's just because pick, pick a lane and stay in it. And so if you want to say that it has to be canonized, that's fine. But every word Russell Nelson says, you know, in April, General Conference means nothing until it's voted on. But if you also want to say follow the prophet and listen to what he says in April, then you can't say don't listen to what Joseph Smith said in 1843, because we didn't vote on it when we all know that Joseph Smith is leaving no room that that is not coming, at least from his perspective, it's coming directly from God through him as a prophecy to the world which clearly fails.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Yeah. Okay. The other thing is, you know, there's this, I don't know if the right word's tautology, but there's this paradox of it's not scripture unless it's added to the Doctrine and Covenants, but they're not going to add a failed prophecy to the Doctrine and Covenants. And so that would be my own answer to my own. You know, canonizing is a problem because we've already shown in past episodes that if there's something added to the canon that then fails to become an accurate prophecy, it's not beyond them to either change it or remove it. And so even the canonization standard is not a reliable one within a Mormon context. Right, Mike?

Mike [00:26:35] Well, yeah, in the rest of this episode, we've got a bunch of revelations from the DNC that are canonized that fail. So I mean, even then it's not like in the dnc they've kind of scrubbed away anything that didn't happen. They just, there are revelations that Joseph Smith made that were recorded early on that were published because they believed it was going to happen. And then obviously it does not happen. But to your point, you can make change. Like Joseph Smith makes a lot of changes to try to retrofit his history, as we talked about with the priesthood. Restoration is a huge one. But in this case, he makes these prophecies that fail. But I think even back then the church realizes if we scrub them out, it's a pretty strong admission that the guy we revere is the second best figure to Jesus Christ was no more reliable than anyone else on the street. And I think that is where you start to see the conundrum they put themselves in by recording some of these. And I think that is a big reason why the modern day church doesn't canonize their scriptures, because they all know that they're going to be wrong, at least in part on These things. And so they don't want to set themselves. Russell Nelson does not want to canonize something about the, you know, LGBT stuff that he claimed was Revelation because he had to change it three and a half years later. And we will get to that in our next episode, but the fact is, the church has reversed multiple revelations, and we're going to get to those in our next episode within three to four years of making them. So they cannot. In 2023. They're in a bind and they know it.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Yeah, yeah. It's a lot more difficult in the Internet age to make a prophecy because you're going to be held to it in ways that 100 or 200 years ago, you weren't. You just weren't held to it. All right, let's go to the next slide, which is a really important one. The Everlasting Covenant of the United Order.

The United Order and Everlasting Covenant

Mike [00:28:19] Yeah, and this is kind of funny just because we always think of the ever, you know, new and everlasting covenant being for polygamy, but this is before polygamy. So this is DNC104. And it says, verily, I say unto you, my friends, I give unto you counsel and a commandment concerning all the properties which belong to the order, which I commanded to be organized and established, to be a united order and. And in everlasting order for the benefit of my church and for the salvation of men until I come. So this is, you know, Jesus basically saying, I've created this Everlasting Order that you're all going to give your property to, and it's going to be there until I come as a way to basically benefit the church. And as we all know, the United Order failed miserably and has not been practiced since Kirtland, which is, you know, obviously problematic, not just because here we have, you know, Jesus saying it's everlasting, but because God promised very grave punishments if the Church did not follow this everlasting commandment. And so this is also from the same revelation. It says, therefore, inasmuch as some of my servants have not kept this commandment, but have broken the covenant through covetous covetousness, and with feigned words, I have cursed them with a very sore and grievous curse. For I, the Lord, have decreed in my heart that inasmuch as any man belonging to the order shall be found a transgressor, or, in other words, shall break the covenant which. With. With which ye are bound, he shall be cursed in this in his life, and shall be trodden down by Whom I will.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] Can I just say I'm sick of the Doctrine and Covenants, God cursing and condemning people. It just. I hate it. I hate that.

Nemo [00:29:54] I don't want a kid throwing a tantrum.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah.

Nemo [00:29:57] Honestly, I don't want to be disrespectful, but it is, It's. It's very much just like, if you don't do what I say, I. I'm going to, like, just throw all my toys out the pram and get angry at you and mad at you and smite you down and like, what.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] What would be the equivalent of a. Of a living parent cursing their child? Like, I'm just trying to imagine, like, my Clara, my third daughter. It's like, if you don't do what I say, I'm going to hurt you. Like, isn't that child abuse? Like, why does the God of the Doctrine and Covenants in the Old Testament get away with what in any mortal context would be, you know, abuse? Right.

Nemo [00:30:32] Especially. He's meant to be the example of a father.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] Yeah.

Nemo [00:30:38] I mean, it's.

Mike [00:30:38] It's.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Yeah.

Mike [00:30:39] One of the things that you start to think about when you think about, like, when you hear in general conference will say, oh, my goodness, God loves us so much and he knows everything. We need to have a happy life, and he's giving us everything we, you know, just think of the happiness letter. Right. But then you think about what the God of Mormonism really does. You know, the God of Mormonism, as Russell Nelson said just a few years ago, you're gonna have empty chairs in heaven if you don't do exactly what the church that claims to speak for God tells you to. And to your point, John, we talked about this a little bit in our last episode, but, you know, the reason that the Doctrine and Covenants God is

John Dehlin [00:31:13] so

Mike [00:31:15] angry and threatening is because it works. You know, if Joseph Smith says, you know, hey, Martin Harris, I'd really love for you to mortgage your property so we could fund this Book of Mormon publishing. Martin Harris is like, yeah, I'm gonna pass, because my wife's really not happy with this. But when Joseph Smith comes back to him and says, you're gonna mortgage your property, you're gonna stop coveting your own property, which is also weird, and if you don't do it, I'm gonna make your life hell. Then Martin Harris immediately mortgages the farm. And Joseph Smith learns early on that by giving revelations that give very pointed threats and, you know, basically kind of detailing how bad it's going to be if you don't do it, people are much more willing to go with it. It's the same thing. You know, as much as we hate to say it, if you ask your kid to clean the table after dinner, they'll do it, but then sometimes they'll forget. But if they think you're going to get, they're going to get beaten. If they don't, they're going to clean that table every time. And so it's, it's an abusive father relationship from Heavenly Father when you talk about the God of Mormonism, but it's coming from Joseph Smith, so it's effective. I mean, let's just be honest, abuse is effective, which is why people are afraid to leave it and why people are, you know, it's a really horrible way to phrase it, but it's effective. And that's what he does.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] And what's extra complicated is in Mormonism, the God of the Doctrine and Covenants is Jesus Christ, who's supposed to be the Prince of Peace. We've mentioned that before, but I guess I don't want to stray from the main point of today's episode, which is the United Order was kind of like Mormon communism in Kirtland. And why did it fail? It failed for the same reason it kind of failed in Russia and kind of failed in China and kind of failed in Cuba. Like humans don't always have motivation. It's hard for an economic system to be efficient. You know, sometimes as flawed as capitalism is. I think one of the lessons history has shown us is is that some sort of communism, it's just rough for that to work in the real world. So far we haven't really figured that out yet. So that's why it fails. But the other problem that I have that is a technique associated with cult leaders is this idea of blame reversal. Because it's bad enough that God is this abusive, punishing God who literally is cursing his children for living out their nature. Because it's clearly human nature for some reason to not be able to support a united order or communist system. But then it's this horrible practice of blame reversal where, you know, a prophet makes a failed or a bad prophecy. Well, whose fault is it? It's certainly not God's fault and it's certainly not the prophet's fault. So now we're just going to curse the followers and blame it on them. And it's important that we recognize that as something called blame reversal, which is a tool of cults and high demand religions to wield undue influence on the members nima what do you think about that?

Nemo [00:34:19] I agree. And I also want to go to Joseph Smith's use of the word everlasting. It reminds me of that meme. I think it's from the Princess Bride, where it's like, you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. He keeps using that word everlasting, and it doesn't mean what he think it means. It doesn't do what he says it will do. I have a feeling that the law of Consecration, as it is in the temple, is a remnant of this way of being amongst the members of the Church, and it's just never disappeared. And so you're covenanting to live a law that was part of a failed prophecy, was part of a failed system of being that the Church just doesn't practice anymore.

Mike [00:34:57] Yep. And it's just funny because we talked about this. Revelation is still canonized, and it's got very clear threats for people who don't follow the United Order. And yet we're not following the united Order in the Church today. So it makes you wonder, like, do they believe the dnc? Because if they do, then they are going to have a horrible afterlife because they're not following an everlasting covenant. And it just shows how when you take the Church's revelations and prophecies and doctrines at face value, they don't work. We don't even. You know, it's. You know, you talk about cafeteria Mormonism. This is an area where the Church has it as canonized doctrine, and they do not practice it, and yet no one talks about that. It's. It's an interesting. As Nemo said, this is. What part of Everlasting are we not understanding here?

John Dehlin [00:35:38] But isn't it.

Nemo [00:35:39] We know.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] Oh, go ahead, Nemo.

Nemo [00:35:40] I was gonna say, we know that, like, we pick and choose with even the. The kind of parts of scripture that we say we follow. Like the word of Wisdom. People don't follow the word wisdom the way it's written. People. What they think following the word wisdom means is don't drink, don't smoke, don't drink tea or coffee. That's it. What the word wisdom does actually specify is that you should eat meat sparingly and

John Dehlin [00:36:02] beer is okay because it's mild drinks of barley.

Nemo [00:36:04] Right, Right. Yeah. So as written, we don't pay attention to it. So it's not a leap to then say, well, people will just ignore entire sections of the Doctrine and Covenants that contain prophecies and commandments, because those just aren't emphasized in Mormon teachings.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] But, but your, your guys point is important. Like we've already shown that that the Mormon Church has been willing to remove or change scripture and prophecy if it becomes problematic later. Well here's an instance where they left in the failed prophecy and somehow everybody's asleep at the wheel. Like you would think that, that at some point, just like with the outrageousness of DNC 132 and the, the polygamy and the virgins and the, and the cursing of Emma and the threatening of Emma to be destroyed, you would think that a church would wake up and say I'm not, I'm not paying one more dollar of tithing. I'm not attending one more week of church until that effing revelation is removed from, from our canon. Because it's clearly abusive and, and wrong. No, but just people ignore it. And it's the same thing with this prophecy about both this prophecy of united order and the next one about the New Jerusalem and Zion and Independence, Missouri. It's like everyone's asleep at the wheel and nobody cares. And by the way, why didn't the church remove this section like it did the other sections? It's sometimes mind boggling what members of a religion will let a church kind of get away with.

Nemo [00:37:40] I wonder whether they leave it in to allow themselves room to reinstate it later should they wish.

Mike [00:37:45] That's what it is. And that I was just gonna say like the one, the one funny thing about this one is you get the same apologetic response on this revelation as you do DNC132 because they'll say it's not where the people today are not ready for it, but it's still a commandment and once the church is ready for it, we're gonna go back to it. So that is absolutely.

Nemo [00:38:04] And by the people they mean the United States government aren't ready to allow polygamy. That's what they mean.

Mike [00:38:09] Well they mean that for polygamy, yeah,

Nemo [00:38:10] the authorities aren't ready.

Mike [00:38:12] But for this one they say the members aren't ready to basically consecrate all of their property to the church. But one day we're going to get to that point when they are and then it's going to be basically reimplemented even though it already failed once.

Nemo [00:38:22] I'm sorry, as an outsider, have they seen their members lately? I don't think there are that one of the large factions of the church. I do not think they are going to essentially sign up for communism anytime soon.

Mike [00:38:35] No, it's it's an amazing. And that's. Yeah, I don't want to get into that stuff. But yeah, you're right, Nemo. It's like if you actually, especially if you go online and you look at what members talk about online, they are not going. If you were to tell the members, if you were to phrase what the united order is within Mormonism to them, they would scream at you for being a dirty commie. And then if you said it was the Mormon Church, like, oh, well, you're just, you're not doing it, you're twisting it. It's like, no, no, no, that's what it is.

Nemo [00:39:01] That's why I'm surprised Benson ripped this out. Why? Benson was the real push against communism. Like he had a real being about communism. So I'm surprised he didn't look at this scripture and almost declare it heretical and get rid of it.

Mike [00:39:13] Well, yeah, it's like polygamy isn't polygamy, it's plural marriage. And united order isn't communism, it's united order. I, I'm assuming they would say, well, you know, special. It's special pleading. Right? It's like, well, what they do is horrible, but when we do it, it's from God.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] If God and Jesus, If God and Jesus do it, it's okay by definition, right?

Mike [00:39:30] Yeah, I mean that's, that's what it comes down to. And you know, well, you know, God didn't tell Russia to implement a communistic system, but God did tell Joseph Smith that we're ready to do it here. I, I mean, it doesn't work. But that I, that is the response you often get when you point out the kind of inconsistencies and trying to, you know, for example, you'll see the very same people that spend a lot of time online talking about groomers in America. And then you point out how Joseph Smith did the basically kept Lucy Walker living in his house, sent off her, her father after her mother died and then after she was living with them for a couple months, proposed to her as a 50, a 16 year old girl. They'll say, well, that's not grooming because that's from God. And you're just like, but that's exactly what you're claiming these other people are doing. And, and so it really, like I said earlier, pick a lane and stay in it. If you want to call something communism, well then you have to fit this into that equation. You know what I mean? You can't just jump around because yours is different, because it's going to tell you right now. Yours is not different.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Yeah. All right, well, let's go to the next one, which I, for me is a really, really big one. You know, one of the things that I remember growing up very distinctly as a Mormon is memorizing the 13 articles of faith and having that little banner that I hung on my door as a child. And each time I memorized one of the Articles of Faith, I would put the little, you know, the little circle token to represent that I memorized it. And I'm sure you all can recite this with me. One of the Articles of Faith is we believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the ten tribes that Zion, the new Jerusalem will be built upon this, the American continent, Sar Nemo, that Christ will reign personally upon the earth and the earth will be renewed and will receive its paradisical glory. There's a, you know, Joseph made really important predictions about Independence, Missouri and the New Jerusalem. So let's go to that now.

Nemo [00:41:32] Yeah, I mean, just before we read it, you say, sorry, Nemo. But as a, as a. To add that kind of outside of America perspective, that was an article of faith I often kind of rolled my eyes at that was a part of church doctrine that even as a fully in believing member, I was kind of like, yeah, all right, okay, fine, but it'll probably be all the Brits that will go there, right? Because the Americans won't get the message, whatever it would be. But yeah, no, but from an international perspective, that was always one that made me go a bit like, okay, right, that's a bit far. But all right, sure.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] But for Mormons, the Articles of Faith are pretty central to what we would say is doctrine, right?

Nemo [00:42:08] Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It was, it was important. Like, I knew it was true. As a Mormon, I was like, well, that is what will happen. But just because it was so American centric.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] Of course, of course. And it's. And it's been 100 and 150 years since it's kind of failed. All right, so take us through this, Mike.

The Temple in Zion Prophecy

Mike [00:42:26] Yeah. And so this is, I think, to John's point, this is probably one of his most well known kind of failed prophecies. And so he's going to claim in a revelation that a temple would be built in Zion, Missouri in this generation, which makes it clear that it would have happened long ago. And so this is four verses from DNC 84. And I'm going to let Nemo read them.

Nemo [00:42:47] All right, perfect. Yea, the word of the Lord, concerning his church established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem, which shall be built beginning at the Temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord in the western boundaries of the state of Missouri and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith Jr. And others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily, this is the word of the Lord that the city, New Jerusalem, shall be built by the gathering of the saints beginning at this place, even the place of the temple. Which temple shall be reared in this generation. For, verily, this generation shall not all pass away until a house shall be built unto the Lord, and. And a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord which shall fill the house. Wow.

Mike [00:43:49] And it didn't happen.

Nemo [00:43:51] Didn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Yeah.

Mike [00:43:52] I mean, like, this is. For. Verily, this generation shall not all pass away. It's like.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] Yeah, you can.

Mike [00:43:59] You just. You know, the apologetic is that the generation can mean a lot of things. You know, Translation. Translation. Skin. Skin. This is clear as day. Yeah, this is as clear as day that Joseph Smith is like, some of you will be alive when this temple is built, and it does not happen. And this is a canonized revelation that's still in the church today. And everyone can read it and go, oh, that's weird. That didn't happen. And to John's point, they don't focus on it, because if you do, once you start to think about it, you're going to have a lot of issues internally to try to sort out. But there's no way around this. This is a failed prophecy.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] Go ahead and read. Go ahead and read your final couple sentences, Mike.

Mike [00:44:38] Oh, I pretty much just did. Just the fact that he said, the generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord. 100%, that's a failed prophecy.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] Yeah. Yeah. Basically what was supposed to happen was that, you know, we were getting kicked out of Ohio and Kirtland, he sent a bunch of people to Missouri, and we were all supposed to, as Mormons, move to Missouri, moved Independence, Missouri, build a temple there, and then Jesus would come. I mean, that was it. And we were the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints instead, you know, Governor Boggs and whoever else ended up issuing an exterminating order. We got our rear ends handed to us.

Mike [00:45:21] We.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] We considered going to war with the people of Missouri until we realized that wasn't going to end up well for us. And at the end of the day, Joseph Smith and the remaining Saints, after a massive apostasy, kind of go slurching, slouching into Illinois to rebuild. And not only did this prophecy not happen in 2023, we don't even own the temple lot. Some other church owns the plot of land where the temple is supposed to be built. Because if you read this scripture, it gets so specific as to actually mention the actual lot. And we all know through historical records what that lot is, and some other church owns it. And so what we saw is we went to Missouri. I'm sorry, all the Saints went to Illinois. Joseph built up a new city there. He actually built a temple there. But then he ends up getting killed and the Saints get driven from Illinois and we have to set up again in Utah. And. And over time, I remember growing up hearing the reinterpretation that Zion dwells within us. Now, before we all knew what Zion was, Zion was Independence, Missouri, where we're all supposed to gather. But that got reinterpreted in modern Mormonism that Zion dwells within us and we're supposed to build the stakes of Zion wherever we live instead of move and congregate to Independence. Is that, Is that what you remember, Nemo?

Nemo [00:46:54] Yeah. Though you still get those Mormons saying that, oh, well, when the prophet starts gathering people, you know, that's when we. We might then get the temple lock back and then we might start building a temple and they've kind of like retrofitted the significance of it to like some sort of future part of the gathering of Israel, when Joseph Smith very much had it in mind for a specific time. And this isn't the last time that prophets will then go on to use the word generation so loosely that it. I don't know. I did a video on Ye are the Chosen Generation, A Royal priesthood, etc, etc, that verse from Peter. And Prophets, generation after generation keep telling young people that they are a chosen generation. So that one. And the reason I bring that up is because one of the apologetics that comes with that is people then saying, well, generation doesn't mean, you know, the traditional genetic meaning of a generation, the traditional anthropological meaning of a generation. It means those of the latter days. It's like, well, okay, fine, I guess maybe. But I don't see how you would apply that apologetic to this, because he made it very clear that it's about people dying of this generation.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Yeah, yeah. Anything you want to add, Mike?

Mike [00:48:04] No, I mean, it's just like, you Said it's one of those things where there will be probably a day when, when the Mormon Church buys that, that lot, I'm sure. And when they do, they'll. They're going to reframe it as a fulfillment of prophecy. When you could read it for yourself and realize that this is 100% a failed prophecy that Joseph Smith and I've talked about this in previous episodes. When Joseph Smith is in control of a situation, he can make prophecies fulfill themselves because he's in control of it. And in this case, he probably thought he was in control, and that's why he probably made that revelation, because he thinks, we're in Missouri, we have the ability to have this lot and build there. So he makes this revelation and then all of a sudden he loses control because the church gets kicked out of Missouri. And it just shows that either God, again, can't give Joseph Smith correct prophecy, or God is too powerless to stop a group of people in Missouri and neither one of them is good. And ultimately, when you see it happen over and over again, it's pretty clear that whoever is claiming to speak for God and continually getting it wrong is not speaking for God. I mean, it's just no way around it because.

Nemo [00:49:07] And then by the scriptures and admission, you then shouldn't be afraid of him. You know, you shouldn't be afraid of that prophet because they've got it wrong. And so what you want to do there is just add all these up, aggregate them as we're doing, and say, well, that should mean that you just don't really need to listen. And as for the powerlessness of God, it's just wild. It's absolutely wild that the, the only argument you can make there now is, well, agency. God's not going to interfere with agency. It's like, okay, so God's not going to interfere with agency to allow a prophecy to be fulfilled.

Mike [00:49:39] Yeah.

Nemo [00:49:40] What's the point in the prophecy then? Because if you can prophesy something, God can tell you that will happen. And then someone else's agency gets in the way. How does that work?

Mike [00:49:48] Yeah, and that's the thing. Like into your point, you get into this argument of, like, arguing that you have to leave agency, Right? And so Joseph Smith will go to a teenage girl and say, you've been commanded by God to marry me. And then we're gonna, we're gonna be told by the church that they still have the agency to say no. But we all know that in that revelation or commandment that Joseph Smith is giving this Teenage girl. He's saying, if you don't accept this, the gates will be closed forever. That's what he said to Lucy Walker. Or they'll say, this is your chance to get exaltation for you and your family. And so then you have to say, well, is it really free agency when there are threats contained within it, or is it then kind of. I would frame it more as like spiritual extortion. And in this case, to what Nemo is saying, you know, if you're going to say, well, God can't interfere in the free agency of, say, the. The mob in Missouri by stopping them, it's really hard to reconcile that with the same God that is doing all of these miracles in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. And that's, that's where you start to see some issues where it's like, how come the version of God portrayed in the scriptures is so powerful and able to do anything? And then when you look at the prophets of Mormonism, they can't even get up there and tell you who Heavenly Mother is. They can't even stop like. Like we just talked about a temple from being stopped. It's just one of those things. Like, it's just. To me, you have to be consistent. And I'm hammering that because when you look at apologetics are just jumping all over the place, you just can't do that. If you want to be intellectually honest, yeah, you have to. You just have to address it and deal with it. Whether or not you stay in the church, that's your choice.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] But you can't keep saying totally, totally. And I love this slide that you shared kind of on the side. For those who are just listening, there's a slide that has. From David O. McKay to Russell M. Nelson. Think of it like a Brady Bunch, Nine squares, three by three. And it basically, you know, is a photo that says, you are super special. You are the chosen generation. And what it's alluding to is, you know, when I was growing up in the church in the 80s, going to seminary, you know, I was taught that, you know, I was the Saturday's warrior. And what that was meant was this Saturday is the, you know, it's the evening of the Saturday. If the existence of mankind were a week and Jesus was coming on Sunday, we were all taught that, you know, it's Saturday night. You know, we, whatever, whatever the youth are at the time, we are the chosen generation. We are Saturday's warriors. We are here, saved for the last days. And. But it didn't take much to realize that my parents were taught that they were the chosen generation to usher in the coming of Christ. And their parents were. And their parents were. I remember my seminary teacher, Lawrence Layton, telling us that he got a revelation that Jesus would come within before he died. Well, guess what? He's died. And then, of course, I noticed that subsequent generations were also all told that they were part of the chosen generation up until the current generation, being told that they're the ones that are gonna usher in the second coming. And it makes this kind of latter day second coming of Jesus almost like this hamster wheel where, like the carrot's in front of you and you're running to try and eat the carrot like you're a hamster, but the wheel's just constantly spinning and recycling. And that's kind of what this whole millennialistic Saturday's warrior, New Jerusalem kind of doctrine has turned into. From my perspective, Nemo, you're a few generations younger than me or at least one full generation. Were you taught that you were kind of Saturday's warrior generation?

Nemo [00:53:32] I didn't know that's what Saturday's Warrior meant. Everyone keeps going on about Saturday's Warrior, and I feel like it's this Utah cultural reference that never made it my neck of the woods. I always thought it was just a terrible church film, but apparently it's more than that. We. I was absolutely taught I was a chosen generation, though, absolutely drunk that up. And. And then my nephew, who's, you know, 13 years younger than me, taught the same thing. And then I'm sure that, you know, his nephew will be taught the same thing. Or it just keeps going.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] Yeah, yeah, Yep. All right, well, that's a really important one. And, you know, basically the New Jerusalem doctrine and the Jesus is coming any day now doctrine has been largely shelved. I will add. I'm pretty sure that with $100 billion plus several hundred billion dollars, the church could make some offer to the temple lot folks and buy that plot of land. But I don't think The Church in 2023 wants the saints focusing on this prophecy and relocating to Missouri. And so we're in this weird spot where the church could actually acquire the land and build the temple. But the last thing it wants is all the members actually waiting for this prophecy to be fulfilled, because when it doesn't, they're all going to. A lot of them are going to look at each other and say, you know, who's steering this ship? Right, Mike?

Mike [00:54:55] Yeah, no, 100%, actually, I was going to point out there is Somebody who went to a recent like fireside kind of thing, and one of the leaders, and I, I don't know if they actually say who it was because I think they're trying not to out who it was that reported that leader was actually telling them that the, the top leaders of the church have been visiting Missouri like multiple times a month for recently. And they were saying that to this fireside as a way to tell people like, you better get your crap in order because the second coming is, is right around the corner. And I don't believe for a second that Russell Nelson is taking jet, a bunch of jet trips over to Missouri. But there is always going to be this like urban legend in the air that they're going to say the church is, is totally getting ready to go to Missouri, so you better get your house in order. And it's happening. This was like a few weeks ago. So in 2023, there are these rumors coming from this fireside that one of the, I don't know if it's a stake president or higher basically said, yeah, the, the Brethren are visiting Missouri like multiple times a month. So it is kind of funny to your point, John, because I don't think they want people to, to focus on that because as we've talked about, if they go and they buy this temple lot and then all of a sudden 20 years goes by and nothing happens, it's gonna be like, yeah, they really do not speak for God, so it's almost easier just to leave it out there. And I think it's the Church of Christ that owns it. Right? They still own it, or the Community

Nemo [00:56:08] of Christ, Church of Christ. And yeah, the LDS Church, they each own parts of the area. Yeah, they've all got buildings operating there, but Community of Christ I believe, owns the largest portion.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Okay, okay, Well, I misspoke. The other iteration of a rumor I heard recently is that it's now known that Nelson, Russell M. Nelson, is the prophet that's going to usher in Jesus Christ's return. And this is the type of whisper campaign that gets shared amongst orthodox Mormons, but also the youth to kind of make them feel a sense of urgency to be righteous, to be obedient, to go on missions, to pay their tithing, because Jesus is almost here. And I just recently heard the rumor that Russell M. Nelson, he's the one that's going to usher in. But, but they've literally said that about every prophet ever.

Mike [00:57:01] So, yeah, I mean, that's, that's what it comes down to is every single prophet is like the one that we revere. And so of course they're going to be the one that's chosen. And, you know, yeah, we'll have plenty to say about Russell Nelson in the next episodes. But yeah, I don't see him as being a guy that's going to be ushering in anything.

Prophecy That Zion Would Not Fall

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Well, let's go to the next slide, which is Joseph Smith prophecy that Zion will not fall.

Mike [00:57:23] Yeah. And so we're going to have a few slides on this because this is one of those, you know, I joined as we talked about as a, you know, after high school, so I didn't go through seminary. And so I didn't have a huge grasp on church history and I don't think that a lot of members did back then anyways. But I didn't understand kind of the implications of the whole Zion's camp. And so this is tying into what we've already talked about in some of our earlier revelations. But basically, Joseph Smith is going to claim a revelation that Zion will not fall. And so this is from DNC 97. It says, and the nations of earth shall honor her and shall say, surely Zion is the city of our God. And surely Zion cannot fall, neither be moved out of her place. For God is there, and the hand of the Lord is there. And he hath sworn by the power of his might to be her salvation in her high tower. Therefore, verily, thus saith the Lord, let Zion rejoice, for this is Zion the pure in heart. Therefore let Zion rejoice while all the wicked shall mourn. For, behold, and lo, a vengeance cometh speedily upon the ungodly as the whirlwind. And who shall escape it, the Lord's scourge shall pass over by night and by day, and the report thereof shall vex all people. Yea, it shall not be stayed until the Lord come. And so, you know, here we have Joseph Smith saying Zion's going nowhere, God's going to protect it. And the members are going to leave Missouri soon after. And as we're going to talk about in, in the coming revelations, it's going to be the members of the church that are blamed for it. But this right here is Joseph Smith saying, God's protecting this place. It's not going to fall because at the time, of course, there's this growing fear that they're going to get kicked out of Missouri. And you know, as we're going to show in the next few slides, they're going to get kicked out. And so this is going to be a Failed prophecy.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Okay. And so tell me if I'm remembering this right and we're going to talk about it. Basically, the church is founded in New York in 1830, but there's a lot of that treasure digging, jealousy, folk magic residue, which means that Joseph kind of is not going to be able to escape his folk magic, treasure digging past. So ultimately, the church is relocated to Kirtland, Ohio. A temple's built there. But obviously Joseph kind of does the scorched earth thing every five or six years. Wherever he starts something, it ends up blowing up. There's the Kirtland bank scandal. But Joseph was, I guess he did have some foresight enough to send people down to Missouri saying, Missouri's gonna be where it all happens. And of course, the Kirtland bank scandal and other things cause another apostasy, spoil Kirtland. And so all the members are anticipating that Independence, Missouri is going to be the place where the church is going to be established. And so this scripture you just read is Joseph Smith basically throwing the gauntlet down saying Independence, Missouri is the place. But then the state of Missouri ends up being annoyed by Mormons hating Mormons issuing an exterminating order against the Mormons, and Missouri becomes very inhospitable. So that's the point where Joseph's either got to like throw down and say it's going to happen in Missouri or run away with his tail between his legs. And the scripture you just read is basically Joseph kind of throwing down the gauntlet. Right, Mike?

Mike [01:00:37] Yeah. I mean, this is just a pretty clear way of Joseph Smith saying God's going to protect this place. The ungodly are going to be, you know, be taken care of and yet. Right. I mean, pretty soon after this, they're driven out. And so it just shows again that either Joseph Smith is just kind of, you know, rattling the saber to try to keep the people happy and not speaking for God. Or again, God can't protect the church in ways that God promises Joseph Smith, he's going to protect the church. And so it's a trend you're going to see in these revelations. Because I'm not saying that this should be easy for God just to strike down people. But is God powerful or is God completely unable to do anything? And I just, I feel like people will hear this episode and think I'm trying to mock God. I'm saying the God of the Mormon Church makes promises that the God of the Mormon Church is apparently unable to keep. And you have to reconcile that one way or the other. So, yeah, this is Joseph Smith effectively throwing down the gauntlet and saying Zion is not falling.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] So tell, tell us really quickly before we go to this next slide, what is Zion's camp We're going to get. Is that what the next slide is going to talk about? Do you want to set up?

Mike [01:01:43] We're going to get into that. Yeah. So. Okay, so let's go to the next one.

Taking the Land by Power and Zion's Camp

John Dehlin [01:01:46] All right.

Mike [01:01:47] Yeah. And so basically, after the church is forced from Missouri, this puzzles Joseph Smith. And this is from the book Saints. It says Joseph did not understand why God had let the Saints suffer and lose the promised land, which makes sense given the revelation we just read. And so this leads Joseph Smith to write DNC101. And I'm reading this from the Saints book because it kind of gives like, almost like a story feel to. To this whole event. And so I think it's. It's good to understand how the church presents it today along with the Revelation. And so it says, this is about DNC 101. It says, while the Revelation urged peaceful negotiations with the people of independence, the Lord also indicated that Zion could be reclaimed by power. The revelation calls for 500 men to go to Missouri, but the force was only a small fraction of the 500 the Lord had called for. Even though the force did not match the Revelation, they carried on to Missouri.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] Okay, so let me just make sure I understand. So Joseph issues a revelation, or God through Joseph issues a revelation, saying 500 men are going to go down to Missouri and liberate independence, and that's what Zion's camp was and was supposed to be. Am I right?

Mike [01:02:58] Yeah. Yeah. So basically, Joseph Smith claims that God says it won't fall, it falls. So then Joseph Smith gets this revelation that says we could take it by

John Dehlin [01:03:07] power, by force, meaning military. Like military force, right?

Mike [01:03:11] Yeah, yeah. Basically by physical force. So we're going to get in. The revelation called for 500 men to be assembled to go down to Independence to just take the land back.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] But he wasn't able. He wasn't able to even muster up 500 people at the time.

Mike [01:03:23] No, he only got a frat. I think it was like, I could be wrong. I think it's like 150 or 200, but it's. It's a small fraction compared to what the Revelation calls for.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] And it was a ragtag group, as I. It's been a long time since I've read this, but it was kind of this ragtag group that goes down and thinks that they're gonna be fighting a War and based on, like, Book of Mormon teachings about, like, how God protected the stripling warriors or whoever, God's people, they're thinking somehow God's gonna intervene in some miracle, and this ragtag band of a few hundred scruffs are somehow gonna defeat the standing militias of the state of Missouri. And as I understand it, it reached the point of, like, almost conflict where, like, we're lined up on one side and they're lined up on the other, and there's this moment of truth where, like, it's either charge or no charge. And as I understand it, Joseph kind of backs down. Is that right?

Mike [01:04:22] Yeah, yeah. So that's exactly it. So if you go back to the slides. So DNC101 basically says you could take it by power. And so they go on this, what they call Zion's camp, some call it Zion's March. And they go down to Missouri and they take all these people and they go. And like you said, they don't have a lot of resources. And so this is DNC103, which comes obviously soon after it says the redemption of Zion must needs come by power. The Lord declared, let no man be afraid to lay down his life for my sake. And so here we've got DNC101 calling for this army of men to be created. DNC103 is like, we're taking this by power. Do not be afraid. I got you. I'm God. And so they get to Missouri, and Joseph Smith realizes that they do not have the numbers. And so he's trying to make negotiations which fail. And so Joseph Smith realizes that they're screwed. They're either all going to die because they, you know, they're outnumbered. And Joseph Smith must know on some level, God ain't protecting them. And so the camp fails to retake Zion, and God then changes his mind about retaking the land by Power. In DNC 105, which said that members need to be endowed before they could take the land back. And this is like, you know, there's a movie called the Wedding Singer, and there's this part where she's talking to the guy that's just broke off, you know, left at the altar, and he says, that's information. That information might have been useful to me yesterday. Why are you going to take a couple hundred people down through a very grueling march just to tell them when they get there, you know what? God changed his mind. We're not going to take it by power. You need to be endowed with power first. And so it just really shows that Joseph Smith, he knows he's powerless. And as I've said before, when Joseph Smith is not in control of the situation, his revelations are horrible. Well, in this case, he's not in control of what's going to happen in Missouri. So he's able to make these revelations to get people to go, but then when he gets there, he's like, yeah, I, we're screwed.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] Yeah.

Mike [01:06:12] So they just. So the members are mad because they've given up so much to make this really horrible journey. And Joseph Smith's like, oh, you know what? You need to get your endowment first and then you're going to have the power. And it's just, it's absurd.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] And a lot of times, a lot of times, you know, progressive or apologetic Mormons want to say there's no similarity between, like David Koresh or Jim Jones and Joseph Smith, that somehow, you know, Koresh and Jim Jones and Keith Ranieri and, you know, they're evil, awful, bad prophets because look, you know, their civilizations, their followings ended in mass death or mass suicide. But the truth is, Zion's camp very well could have ended in a bloodbath with the Mormons being fully exterminated. And you know, on the one hand, yea, Joseph Smith didn't lead his people into a massacre. On the other hand, he almost did. And so I guess I'm glad that he didn't lead them into a massacre. But. But it's the only difference in my mind between David Koresh and Jim Jones and Joseph Smith is that in some sense Joseph Smith turned tail and kind of backed out. And I guess I don't know whether to respect him for that or to not respect him for kind of wimping out. I'm glad he wimped out, but does that make him even less of a respectable prophet? I don't know, but this clearly is one of the instances. I would say Illinois, you know, the ending of the church in Illinois would be another instance that could have literally been disastrous. You know, a massacre. Right?

Nemo [01:07:55] Yeah. I mean, we could talk about the way the church tries to paint it. Now I'm just looking at the church's website where they talk about Zion's Camp and they say this expedition known today as Zion's Camp was initially called the Camp of Israel. It was formed after Joseph Smith received a revelation in February 1834 commanding him to call it the strength of the Lord's House to redeem Zion from its enemies. The revelation instructed church leaders to recruit at least 100 preferably 500 men to travel to Missouri. And then it goes on to say, although they saw it, many saw it as a military operation. Joseph Smith and other church leaders saw it as a purely defensive campaign, which feels to me a little bit like retconning history. And they now try and paint it as, oh, they went just to guide the saints that were still there out. And then there's the story of the fishing river flooding, and that saves them from being overrun, all sorts of stuff. So I think the way that it's now phrased or looked at is that they've changed the narrative about why they went and they've changed the narrative about why they left again, which was that miracles saved them from being overrun. I think the quote is, you'll see hell in the morning from 400 men or something like that. But then the river floods and they all run away again.

Mike [01:09:04] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] And I just have to say, read the account. I don't know if it was in no Man Knows My History or Rough Stone Rolling, but when you read the account of Zion's camp, and especially you read the slide we're going to show next, which is the blame reversal that happens, it's one of the most sickening, abusive, sad moments in all of early Mormon history. So let's go ahead and go to that slide, Mike.

Mike [01:09:30] Yeah, and so this is DNC105. So as I mentioned before, you know, you've got three revelations that are basically leading up to this. So the first one says, Zion is not going to fall. The second one says, well, Zion fell, but we could take it by power. The next one is Zion we're going to take by power. And then when it fails, this is the revelation we get, which is DNC105 and Nemo. Do you want to read 1 through 7 for us?

Nemo [01:09:51] Absolutely, that's fine. Verily I say unto you, who have assembled yourselves together that you may learn my will concerning the redemption of mine afflicted people. Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgression of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now. But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I require at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance as becometh saints to the poor and afflicted among them that hasn't aged well and are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom. And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the Principles of the law of the celestial kingdom. Otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they can, which they cover.

Mike [01:10:54] All right, I'm wondering if it's meant

Nemo [01:10:55] to be suffer, but possibly I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church. For they are not all under this condemnation, which isn't that terribly convenient.

John Dehlin [01:11:10] Mike is audibly gasping. Mike, what's going on? Mike?

Mike [01:11:13] Well, I mean, like I said, I didn't know this stuff until after I had done the deep dive, because I really didn't learn this in church. And just to read Joseph Smith actually tell the members that it failed because they were evil, and then have God put in a verse to say, oh, the people that led you into this debacle, and they're not to blame, it's so transparently bad.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] And it's not just that, it's. No one will understand how much sacrifice these people made to support the early LDS church, whether it's in New York or Kirtland or Missouri or Illinois or the pioneers that ended up settling Utah. Like, these are people that were humble, faithful people who put their trust in Joseph Smith and Brigham Young at great significant personal sacrifice. The type of sacrifice that probably none of us will ever, ever come to know. And so to see that level of sacrifice rewarded or punished with kind of the shaming condemnation, it's the type of thing that would make me want to do a John Larsen like expletive filled rant because it's so, it's so outrageous, right?

Nemo [01:12:28] It's.

Mike [01:12:29] Yeah, it's awful.

Nemo [01:12:30] It's terrible. And then you've got Joseph Smith failing them and not giving them convenient revelation that, for example, boiling water might be a good idea so they don't all get cholera later on. Right. Because then while he's berating them, they're all then gonna get very, very sick from something that, you know, God could have helped him out with.

Mike [01:12:50] Yeah, I just, it is just absolutely absurd. And you know, these, these people listen to Joseph Smith because he claimed through the voice of God that they are going to take this by power if they go down there and if they're faithful. You want to tell me these people are evil and unfaithful? That just took, I think it's 800 miles between Kirtland and Independence, an 800 mile walk, you're going to tell me they're unfaithful, Absolutely ghoulish. Stuff for Joseph Smith to then turn it around and say, you have manners of evil in you. And then to say, oh, by the way, the people that lead you, me, God wants you to know that I'm pretty freaking awesome. And this is very similar to the. For those who've seen the south park episode on the origins of the Book of Mormon when Martin Harris loses the 116 pages. And I realize south park is parodying it, but Joseph Smith is like, Martin, I've gotten revelation from God. He is really angry with you, but he's going to let us keep doing, keep, you know, translating the book. And Martin's like, wow, if God's angry at you, then it must be true. And it just reminds me of this idea of like, Joseph Smith is telling these people how, how awful they are. And so these people are upset because Joseph Smith told them God said they'd protect him and retake Zion and it fails. And these people are like, Joseph, you are full of crap. You told us this was going to happen. We walked 800 miles and then you got to walk back and it didn't happen. And Joseph's like, you guys are upset because you're evil, unfaithful people. It's just, this is, like you said, this is the area when you, when you do want to do an expletive fill ramp. Because one, Joseph Smith here is just not a good person if you're going to. To throw the blame on the people who went through such a horrible journey for something you literally made up. And then two, the fact is that this tactic works to keep, to settle people down because now they feel like if they complain that God is going to strike them down when God clearly couldn't do it to save. To save Zion. I just.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] It.

Mike [01:14:34] Yeah, this is one of those areas where you're just like, again, to quote the south park episode, it's like, you know all of this and you still believe it because when you read this, you can see without any question that again, either Joseph Smith is making it up or God has no power. And if God has no power, he got nothing to fear anyway. So.

Nemo [01:14:49] But it is, it is an amazing skill that Joseph Smith has to be able to threaten people with consequences enacted by a God who failed to enact those consequences on their behalf. So what you've just alluded to. God wasn't powerful enough to help them overtake Zion, but yet they have managed to be convinced by Joseph Smith that God is powerful enough to punish them and do the things to them which he couldn't do to those and help them take Zion. So it's an amazing way that Joseph Smith or any cult leader in, in that respect. You know, those that act that way are able to navigate those waters between a God who isn't able to fulfill the promises they give the people, but using that same God as a way to keep those people in line.

Mike [01:15:29] Yeah, 100%. It's just it. This is one of those ones that is. It's angering because you read it and you could just see the manipulation Joseph Smith is using, not only to get these people to shut up about the fact that they're upset that Joseph's revelation failed, but to even in doing that, continue to elevate himself up even higher to say, oh, yeah, it failed, but it's because of you guys. I was awesome. You guys have evil in you. It's. It's just, you know, to John's point earlier, it just feels so abusive. Like, if you did that to your family, they would want nothing to do with you because you'd be a horrible person. And yet in today's church, they talk about him as like the second greatest person to Jesus. And you're like, no, he had a lot of elements of his character that are absolutely fraudulent and manipulative and abusive. And we're seeing them all right here.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] Yeah. And when you look at, like, a modern apostle like Dallin H. Oaks, the number two in the church, make a statement like, we neither seek nor offer apologies. You look at something like Zion's camp and you say, well, clearly that was his inspiration. He's just doing what Joseph Smith did. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Joseph and or God to say, whoops, sorry, we made a mistake. It's our bad, not yours. Maybe we need to recalibrate and retune our prophecies, but this one's on us, guys. Sorry. That's not what Mormon God does. That's not what Mormon Jesus does. That's not what the founding Mormon prophet does. He just redirects the blame to the people. So I guess Downey jokes, comes by it honestly. But there is one shining, glorious gift that Zion's camp has given us all, and that is Zelf the White Lamanite. Why don't you tell us about that, Mike?

Zelph the White Lamanite Story

Mike [01:17:09] Yeah, and this is one if you've done deep dives into Mormonism, you're going to come across because this is. This, this actually solves a lot or kind of cements a lot of problems for Mormonism. And, you know, as a long story short, we'll read the account that John Taylor gives in the church run times and seasons. So people can't say this is some sort of answer anti Mormon diatribe. But Joseph Smith, they're on this, this long journey. Remember, we're talking about it's like 800 miles, right? You're walking from Ohio to Missouri and they're talking through this. Right? Because what else are you going to do when you're doing this long journey? And they come across this pile of bones and people like, oh, wow, look at their bones. And I think there's an arrowhead in it that Brigham Young keeps. And Joseph Smith, of course, because he can't help himself, is like, oh, yeah, God told me that this is Zel, the White Lamanite. And so we'll read what John Taylor said. But yeah, we'll talk about the implications after, because this, to me is a lot more problematic than kind of like the way that both critics approach it, kind of laughing at it. And then, of course, believers kind of say this is just Joseph speaking as a man. But it shows that Joseph Smith is willing to just throw around two members that he speaks for God about the most minute things, which again, is in stark contrast to the leaders today.

John Dehlin [01:18:19] Can I read one this time, Mike?

Mike [01:18:21] Yeah, why don't you read it? So I was giving your throat a break because I know you're. You're not feeling, but, yeah, feel free.

John Dehlin [01:18:25] Okay, I'll do it. All right, so here we go. This is John Taylor, third prophet of the Mormon Church in the times and seasons, 1846. Quote. On the top of the mound were stones which presented the appearance of three altars having been erected one above the other according to ancient order. And human bones were strewn over the surface of the ground. The Brethren procured a shovel and hoe and removing the earth to the depth of about one foot, discovered skeleton of a man almost entire. And between his ribs was a Lamanitish arrow which evidently produced his death. I've never heard that adjective Lamanitish, but there we have it. Elder Brigham Young retained the arrow, and the Brethren carried some pieces of the skeleton to Clay County. The contemplation of the scenery before us produced particular sensations in our bosoms and the visions of the past. Being opened to my understandings by the spirit of the Almighty, I discovered that the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick set man and a man of God. He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Omendegus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or Eastern Sea to the Rocky Mountains. His name was Zelf. The curse was taken from him. And I'm assuming that's the curse of Dark Skin. The curse was taken from him, or at least in part. One of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites. Now I'm hearing audible gasps. What's going on, Mike and Nemo? Why are you guys gasping?

Nemo [01:20:32] I just. I want to make a point. First of all, the thing that upsets me the most is the implication that someone threw a stone from a sling hard enough to snap a man's thigh bone. That takes some serious strength or a serious sized stone, I would imagine. But I would like to say that I'm very grateful to Joseph Smith for this, because without this, what else would we call Sam, Shelley and Tanner?

John Dehlin [01:20:55] Yeah, what else would we call them? That's a reference to the Zelf on the Shelf YouTube channel that is much beloved. And I'm taking full credit for actually naming that YouTube channel. Back when they were in my support group at Utah State University, they're like, what should we name our YouTube channel? And I'm taking full credit for that one. But they've done all the great work since then anyway. All right, what else? I mean, there's obviously the desecration of a sacred Indian burial mound.

Nemo [01:21:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Maybe that would be presentism. You know, we can't really, really expect 19th century frontiermen to respect Indian burial mounds. I don't know.

Nemo [01:21:34] But what you do see is he's firmly putting geographical locations on Book of Mormon events. And that's the thing. I don't know if I stole your thunder there, Mike, but that is the thing that this does, is it absolutely rules out the hemispheric model that began after the time that B.H. roberts started to bring.

John Dehlin [01:21:51] Meaning what for our non Mormons? What do you mean by hemorrhage?

Nemo [01:21:54] So there's. There's two models of Book of Mormon geography because no one's actually been able to settle the places of the Book of Mormon onto real existent sort of extant places within the United States for the most part. So in Joseph Smith's time, there was a believe in a localized version of the Book of Mormon places. So the Hill Cumorah was actually the Hill Cumorah up in upstate New York. That's where that big battle took place. All these sorts of Things then when B H Robert came about in the early 1900s, there started to be problems and concerns with this model because there was very little archaeological evidence at the time. And they've since has been more. There is still a dearth of archaeological evidence. So apologists and the church in general has moved towards what they call a hemispheric model, meaning that the events of the Book of Mormon took place across the entire of the sort of Western hemisphere, from south and Central America up into North America. And in doing that, they took out footnotes from LDS scriptures that named the bodies of water and scriptures as things like Lake Ontario and the sort of Great Lakes area. So they really pulled away from that in the early 1900s. As a brief summary.

John Dehlin [01:23:00] Wait, are you. What about the Mesoamerica model? How we've moved to that over time? Because that's the only area, part of

Nemo [01:23:06] the hemispheric model that forms part of bringing it out into the broader Western Hemisphere rather, or.

Mike [01:23:13] Or even North America.

John Dehlin [01:23:15] Or the crazy interpretation that there's two. Two hill cumorahs, that Moroni buried the plates somewhere in Central America because how else could he have walked in the distances and the armies and the lack of again of archeological evidence. There's also the two cumorahs theory, which is all kind of silly. But, Mike, what point do you want to drive home about all of this?

Mike [01:23:38] Just keep bringing up that slide one more time real quick.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Yeah, absolutely.

Mike [01:23:41] Just because there's a few parts here. So one, you know, they're saying he was known from the hill Cumorah or Eastern Sea. So they're putting the hill Cumorah on the eastern part of the US which makes sense because the hill Cumorah is in New York. So that right there is cementing that the hill Cumorah in New York where the gold plates were, is the one that Joseph Smith taught through the. The voice of God was the hill Cumorah with the big battle. So there's no two hill cumorahs, as you just mentioned. They're cementing it.

Nemo [01:24:05] Millions of people died.

Mike [01:24:06] Yes. Where millions of people died with. With zero archaeological evidence. And then they're talking about how it's a white Lamanite with the curse was taken from him. So they're cementing the fact that the curse is skin, actual human skin. So the apologetic that skin doesn't mean skin falls apart. Because Joseph Smith is telling this to the other people that it's through the spirit of revelation. They're saying the curse was taken from him. That's why He's a white Lamanite. So you have, as Nemo pointed out, they're saying that these. These events, these battles happened in America, which the Church today is trying to get away from. That the Hill Cumorah is in New York, which the Church is trying to get away from, because archaeological evidence tells you that absolutely did not happen. And Joseph Smith here, Joseph Smith here is cementing that dark skin is a sign of the curse, or the curse, however you want to phrase it, but it is literal skin. And these are all being done in the name of God in this revelation. And as we know, I'm not calling this a failed revelation. I'm just saying that this is a revelation that gives us a ton of insights into a lot of other problematic areas of Mormonism that the Church wants to say are not what we can read with our own eyes. Because Joseph Smith is making clear through the voice of God exactly what the Book of Mormon means and what we all take it to mean because it's at face value.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] Yeah, for me, it actually is really important evidence to the credibility of Joseph Smith. And it's a testament to his creative mind that he just would see stuff and then free associate and whatever came into his mind, he would just state it as if it were doctrine in scripture. I mean, unless you believe that God is super racist and turns people's skin dark when they're wicked or back to white when they're righteous, unless you believe that this Book of Mormon narrative happened where millions of people killed each other, but there's no DNA or linguistic or archaeological evidence to support it, you know, unless you believe a lot of racist or insulting or scientifically completely unverifiable things, you really have no option but to look at this one account as just one example of many of just silly, frivolous, creative, kind of almost of fan fiction prophecies and revelations that Joseph Smith was inclined to just kind of throw out there rooted in his folk magic days. And so once you go there, then it kind of contained Joseph Smith as a credible prophet, because then that fully explains the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is basically just the Zelf, the white Lamanite story times a thousand. Right? And that's what explains the Book of Mormon probably better than anything else. It's Joseph's fanciful, creative storytelling mind, you know, run amok in the Book of Mormon with two to three years to prepare, plan, and execute the book. And it's all, I think this story is instructive about kind of what the most likely explanation for the Book of Mormon is. It's basically Zelf times a thousand, right?

Mike [01:27:17] Yeah. I mean, he's cementing. He's cementing all of the things that we know about the Book of Mormon. We talk about the curse of Dark Skin, that it happened in America. The Hill Cumorah with the big battle was in New York, where the plates were buried. He's cementing this in the Voice of God. And so when the Church tells you today, oh, you know, there's probably a second Hill Cumorah, and the fair Mormon will say, oh, you know, the early people were confused because they were kind of just. Just making this bad assumption that that's what Hill Cumorah. But Hill Cumorah is actually out, you know, somewhere else. And you read this and you're like, no, no, not at all. Joseph Smith is 100% cementing this. There's no way around it. And as we've talked about in so many episodes, it's like you try to create one apologetic, but then you look at something like this. It just compounds the problem. Not just there, but geography, but the skin, all of it. That's why this is so important. Not to make fun of Zelf the White Lamanite, because it is kind of a silly story, but the fact that Joseph Smith and the Voice of God is cementing so many of the problems that the Church wants to get away from.

Nemo [01:28:11] And just to lay down a little bit of certainty on this matter, as well as Joseph Fielding Smith in the third volume of Doctrines of Salvation makes it very clear that all the contemporaries of Joseph Smith believe the Hill Cumorah to be in upstate New York, that to be the scene of the final battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites. So it's not just this that does that. Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 3.

John Dehlin [01:28:32] And Joseph Ehling Smith was a prophet, Mormon prophet, and the son of a Mormon prophet, Joseph F. Smith, and the grandson of Hyrum Smith, Joseph's brother. The other thing I'll just add is you talked to Richard Bushman just recently. You read Richard Bushman's explanation of the Book of Mormon, and even Patrick Mason or Richard Bushman will basically say the Book of Mormon sounds a lot like 19th century folk Christianity, Protestant Christianity. You basically, you see 19th century Protestant upstate, you know, New England Christianity, all throughout the Book of Mormon, which shows that it's kind of just a relic of its time. And for me, we can't move on past the Zelta White Lamanite story without noting that it also invokes the Mound Builder myth. You know, where would Joseph Smith get the idea of a white Lamanite? Why wouldn't it just All Lamanites would be dark skinned as they would have encountered. Well, it's because Joseph Smith was subjected to the mound builder myth, which was that there was a previously existent white version of Native Americans that were killed off by the, quote, savages who were dark. And that's just Joseph pulling into, you know, his quote, prophecies, you know, folk, folk wisdom of the day. And we've got entire episode or two about the mound builder myth. And on Mormon stories, we've had John Hamer and others on to talk about that. We can even identify the prevalent theories of the time that Joseph Smith draws upon. And they're showing up here as well.

Mike [01:30:16] Yeah.

Nemo [01:30:17] To those who want to just blame Brigham Young for the curse of Cain, this is just another example that Joseph Smith very much had that doctrine as well.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] Yeah.

Mike [01:30:24] Yep.

David Patten, Salem, and the Treasure Mission

John Dehlin [01:30:25] All right, well, let's go on to the unfortunate death of David W. Patton. Yeah.

Mike [01:30:30] This one is one that obviously is not going to rank high on people's lists, but on April 17, 1838, Joseph Smith gives a revelation to David W. Patton that he would serve a mission in the next spring. And so this is DNC114. Verily, thus saith the Lord, it is wisdom in my servant, David W. Patton, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can and make a disposition of his merchandise that he may perform a mission unto me next spring in company with others even 12, including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. And unfortunately, David W. Patton dies in October of 1838 and never goes on the mission that God basically reveals to Joseph he's going to go on. And so, you know, it's one of those things where it might not be a big one. It's just, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, well, you're giving a revelation to somebody, they're going on a mission the next spring and they're going to die in the fall. It's kind of problematic.

John Dehlin [01:31:22] Again, I'm surprised that wasn't removed from the Doctrine and Covenants at some point.

Mike [01:31:26] I am, too.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] Yeah.

Nemo [01:31:27] I'm going to tell you the really tragic thing about that, just really quickly is that where it says as soon as you possibly can, people will just blame him for not doing it quickly enough and therefore he died and didn't get to go on a mission, that's how people will square that circle.

Mike [01:31:41] Yeah.

Nemo [01:31:41] Which is just tragic.

Mike [01:31:43] It is, yeah. And that's true. I mean, like I said, this isn't the biggest one, but it is clearly an example of where there's a revelation that doesn't happen. And so it is a failed revelation, even if it's not as important as, say, you know, the temple lot in Zion or Zion's camp. But it's certainly worth noting.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] Yeah. All right, well, let's not belabor that one. Let's go to the next one, which I was going to mention if it wasn't on here. This is the failed treasure seeking mission to Salem, Massachusetts. Right. You want to give us that background, Mike?

Mike [01:32:12] Well, this is just one. The church needs money and basically they go to Salem and Joseph Smith, basically to go back to his treasure digging days, believes that there is treasure that they can find. So it turns into a treasure. Basically, this is a treasure hunting mission. And so Joseph Smith records a revelation from God that basically tells them, yeah, there's, there's treasure here and you're going to get it. And so this is DNC111. It says, I, the Lord your God, am not displeased with you with your coming this journey, notwithstanding your follies, I have much treasure in the city for you, for the benefit of Zion and many people in this city whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion through your instrumentality. Therefore, it is expedient that you should form acquaintance with men in the city as you shall be led and as it shall be given you. And it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts, and its wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. Concern. Concern not yourself about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them. And obviously they don't find any treasure in Salem. The city was never put in their hands. This prophecy completely fails. The trip to Salem was a failure. And it's funny because the apologetic is. They'll say, well, I think they. They converted a few people while they were in Salem to the church. They'll say, that's the treasure is conversions. It's like, no, no, no. God is telling Joseph Smith there is gold and silver and it's going to cover all their debts. It absolutely fails. This is another failed revelation that's coming from Joseph Smith in the voice of God.

Nemo [01:33:47] Don't let people. Don't let people. At the moment with the current sec situation see this because they'll use it. As you say, look, see, God told Joseph Smith to hide his money once, he'll do it again. It's just, it's. This is one of those. I always find it weird when God gets involved in the financial affairs of the church.

Mike [01:34:04] Yes.

Nemo [01:34:04] Particularly considering the strong biblical teachings there are towards hoarding wealth and having too much money and that sort of thing and going out without personal script and that sort of thing. I always find it difficult when God gets so involved in essentially what look like to the rest of us, money making schemes. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

Mike [01:34:26] Yeah, no, this is like if you, if you took the word, if you took kind of the voice of God out and just replaced it with like a random guardian spirit, this would read like a, a Joseph Smith treasure digging run. This is a treasure digging mission that Joseph Smith is putting in the voice of God. And just like his treasure digging missions with the same rock and a hat, they fail because Joseph Smith can't see anything. And so the fact is he claims to see gold and silver through the voice of God and it fails. And it's the exact. Like this is when we talked earlier about how treasure digging kind of works its way through the church. It, this is a good example because this is a treasure digging mission through the voice of God. It fails. It really is that simple.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] One of the things I'm confused about, if you think about Jesus, who should be the model for everything, what happened when he had a fish and some loaves of bread and there were a bunch of people around him that needed to eat? It wasn't like, hey, all of you go on an expedition and in this place over there, after this big long journey, dig a big hole, go to the basement and you're going to find some stuff. Jesus was able to just multiply the allegedly the fishes and the loaves and everyone ate. Why, why is God not able to replicate that power with Joseph Smith and just somehow whatever bank, whatever's in his bank account, it just triples. Why, why do they have to go on some harebrained treasure seeking expedition, call it prophecy and then Keystone Cops, the prophecy doesn't even come true. It doesn't make sense. Just like Jesus was able to perform miracles, why can't Jesus help Joseph Smith perform miracles? But fair has an answer, right Mike?

Mike [01:36:17] Yeah, I mean this is just, you know, you know, so what fair Mormon does is this reminds me a lot of the current apologetics regarding the SEC report with Enzyme Peak. But fair Mormons like basically saying it wasn't God's idea, so it wasn't a failed revelation. So they say the trip was apparently made on their own initiative and was not commanded by the Lord. Joseph did not prophesy that they would find money in Salem, but instead made the trip because he became convinced that the story that the treasure existed might be true. Upon failing to locate the money, they spent their time preaching to the people in Salem. And so what they're saying is God never tells Joseph Smith they'd find money in Salem. And then what I told you earlier, their spin is, well, they did convert some people and that's the real treasure. But this is completely an attempt to distract from the very fact that while God might not have sent Joseph to Salem, God absolutely, positively says, and I'm going to read it, and it's wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. So to say that he never prophesied they'd find money is absolute bs and fair Mormon knows it, unless they've never read the dnc, which I find hard to believe. So this is very similar to how apologists in the church itself are misrepresenting the SEC report today about Enzyme Peak because they're trying to reform, reframe the story in a way that doesn't actually match what they're talking about. And the fact that they do this with a straight face, it. It boggles my mind because this is very clearly God saying not only, you know, not only is God saying you're going to find money, but he's basically telling him we're going to fool the city into giving, giving all their money to you. Which, you know, to your point earlier, it's like, you know, I just, I can't imagine Jesus being like, okay, you guys are hungry. So what we're going to do is we're going to go to this next city, but don't tell them while we're there because we're going to trick them into giving you all their food. It's just, it's. It's crazy. It really is.

Nemo [01:37:57] I've pulled out my scriptures because I want to refute fair there. They say the Lord is pleased with the journey because he says he's not displeased. So, you know, the Lord is okay with the journey. And he also says that he will reveal where it is his will go to. Verse 7, verse 8. He says that the place where it is my will that you should tarry for the main shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my spirit that shall flow unto you. So clearly when he's there, God's going to direct where he ought to be. So I don't get how you can say this isn't a God ordained and a God given journey that Joseph was undertaking.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] Yeah, yeah.

Mike [01:38:33] You know, because I think they cling to that first verse where it says, I, the Lord God am not displeased with your coming this journey. So I think they're saying that because he's saying that God is not God is saying, I'm not mad that you came here, but I didn't send you here. And so that's why fair Mormons just

Nemo [01:38:47] go, you could infer that. But that's not what it said.

Mike [01:38:49] No, it's not. And it's also, I mean, fair. I'm just gonna say it straight, but I know people don't like when you use the word lie. Fair Mormon is lying here when they say that Joseph is not prophesying that they're going to find money because it's right there that saying, you're going to get the wealth pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. Unless Fairmount Fair wants to say gold and silver is not money, which we all know is just crap. So, I mean, fair Mormon here is just absolutely. I mean, they're being as dishonest as they can be.

Nemo [01:39:14] They know how to be.

Mike [01:39:15] Yeah, there's dishonest as they know how to be. And as the Church would use, they're using carefully worded denials to try to avoid stating what's like literally written in. In the voice of God. So this just shows you to me how apologetics will. And, and this is very similar to how the Church today is. In their SEC report response, they're like basically saying like, did the Church break the law? And they just don't really answer it because they did. And so if you read the Church's response to the SEC letter report and then you actually read the SEC report, you're like, oh my goodness. The Church is absolutely just making crap up in the most lawyerly way possible. It's the same thing here. They know what they're saying isn't honest, but they're hoping that people reading it, I. E. Church members won't look at DNC 111 after this and go, what are you talking about? It says right there that they're gonna get gold and silver.

John Dehlin [01:40:01] Right?

Nemo [01:40:02] Yeah.

Mike [01:40:02] It's just such a bad deflection.

John Dehlin [01:40:04] The only other thing I'll note is that it's a common apologetic to say, all right, the prophecy didn't come true, but good things came about anyway. This happened with Zion's Camp as well. You'll read church leaders, you know, after Joseph Smith died, sort of addressing member concern that the Zion camp prophecy didn't come true. And what they'll often say is many of the people that became future leaders of the church were participants in Zion's Camp. And so even though the prophecy didn't fail, it was still of the Lord because subsequent, you know, prophets and apostles, you know, came out of the failed Zion's Camp. And that's just a dodge. Cause, you know, you could say that Hitler and I hate to violate Godwin's law by invoking Hitler, but you can. And Nemo, as a Germanophile, you may or may not like this analogy, but you often hear something like, well, Hitler built the Autobahn or Hitler built the Volkswagen Bug. You would never say that to then say, well, good things came from the Holocaust or from World War II. And similarly, it's just a logical fallacy to say, well, it doesn't matter that the Zion's Camp prophecy didn't come true or that the silly failed attempt to find treasure in Salem didn't come true, but good things came from it. It's just a dodge.

Nemo [01:41:41] Well, yeah, because that whole Zion's Camp thing, he's like, oh, you mean to tell me that members of the in group and the very loyal ones who went all that way with Joseph Smith then got rewarded with church callings? Yeah, I'm shocked.

John Dehlin [01:41:52] Right? Of course they were rewarded for their faithfulness and devotion.

Mike [01:41:58] It's the exact same thing with polygamy. There's a podcast that they did and they talk about it where they actually say polygamy produced a righteous seed. That's the phrasing, right? And they'll say, if you look at the church leadership today, they almost all come from polygamy. And to the most part it's like, yeah, because they were the people that are related and descended from the inner circle of Mormonism and the churches. Is that what's the phrase that the church callings are 90% nepotism and 10% something else.

Nemo [01:42:23] So 90% relation, 10% revelation.

Mike [01:42:27] Yeah, that's what it is. So, so basically the church, you know, everyone knows that the people that get high up in the church have deep connections to early members because that's how the church is designed structurally, to a

Nemo [01:42:38] whole video on it. You should go check it out.

John Dehlin [01:42:40] What's it called? Nemo?

Nemo [01:42:41] It's. It's nepotism amongst Mormon church leaders.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] Yeah, yeah.

Mike [01:42:44] So go watch that because you'll understand that to Nemo's point, you know when they say, oh, a lot of great leaders came out of it. Well, of course they did, because they were the early inside group. They were Joseph Smith's inner circle. So of course they were rewarded and their descendants are rewarded because of their name. And so. Yeah, yeah, there's no surprise there.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] All right, well, we'll. We'll have Maven. Maven's already including those in the show notes. Let's go ahead and jump to the next one, which is the failed attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright.

Attempts to Sell the Book of Mormon Copyright

Nemo [01:43:10] Yeah.

Mike [01:43:10] And this is one that got a lot more kind of steam because it was located in the Joseph Smith's paper project. And so this is similar to the Salem Revelation because Joseph Smith is looking for ways to raise money, and he receives this revelation that he can sell the copyright for the Book of Mormon in Canada. And this was, like I said, pretty unknown. They knew of the Revelation, but they didn't, like, have, like, proof of it. But it was finally confirmed in the Joseph Smith paper project. Originally it was known because David Whitmer had referenced it as a failed prophecy. And so this is part of the actual Revelation. And Nemo or John. Do you want to read that?

Nemo [01:43:49] I'll take that.

John Dehlin [01:43:50] Go ahead. Nemo.

Nemo [01:43:51] It pleaseth me that Oliver Cowdery, Joseph Knight, Hyrum Page, and Josiah Stowell shall do my work in this thing, yea, even in securing the copyright. And they shall do it with an eye single to my glory, that it may be the means of bringing souls unto me. Salvation through mine only begotten. Behold, I am God. I have spoken it. And it is expedient in me. Wherefore I say unto you that ye shall go to Kingston seeking me continually through mine only begotten. And if ye do this, ye shall have my spirit go with you, and ye shall have an addition of all things which is expedient in me. Amen. And I grant unto my servant a privilege that he may sell a copyright through you. Speaking after the manner of men for the four provinces. If the people harden not their hearts against the enticings of my spirit and my word, for behold, it lieth in themselves to their condemnation and their salvation. That's tricky to read with no punctuation.

Mike [01:44:55] Yeah, well, that's how. That's funny, too, because you read that, and that's how the original Book of Mormon would have read. When everyone, you know, talks about how great it reads, it's like that's not how it you read when it was first dictated by Joseph. But yeah. And so this revelation is Joseph Smith. This is again God being very concerned with money, which as we talked about is kind of odd how specific some of these revelations are about money. But this is Joseph Smith creating himself an out, which is to say this is going to succeed if the people in Canada basically believe that it's, you know, real. And so the church will then, as Nemo kind of highlighted as he was reading, use that loophole to say that it wasn't a failed prophecy because the people in Canada hardened their hearts against it. And so it's interesting to kind of see how that little loophole and that's something that you see from self proclaimed prophets, you know, throughout the ages, which is to say this will happen as long as everybody basically gets on board with it.

John Dehlin [01:45:47] It reminds me when I used to give priesthood blessings and I learned this from other Mormons I was given, you know, I was taught that if you bless a sick person or even a dying person using the Mormon priesthood, using the sacred consecrated oil, that you could heal the sick or even raise the dead. But you know, you only had to do that a couple times to realize you were about as effective as their, as modern medicine, maybe a little bit less effective than their usage of modern medicine. In other words, the no effect, right? Even the placebo effect would rarely work. And so but what you could always do is you could say, you know, pursuant to your righteousness or if it's God's will, then you'll be healed. And so it's always questionable to claim power if in conjunction with that claimed power, there's always an out. The other thing I just want to mention about this weird selling the Book of Mormon copyright thing is what in the heck can you imagine like the Bible being written in 50 AD or whatever, 50 BC or what is it? AD. What is the new term for AD?

Nemo [01:47:06] AD. Yeah, yeah, CE.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Yeah, CE. Like can you imagine, like hey, you know, hey Peter, James and John, hey Matthew, Mark and Luke, we're kind of short on money. Let's go to Nero or let's go to Caesar and let's sell them the copyright and then they own the intellectual property for like God's sacred scripture on the earth. Like what are these random Canadian people? What's going to happen if they own the copyright to the Book of Mormon? Are they going to get a sequel

Nemo [01:47:39] to translate it into French for start?

John Dehlin [01:47:42] Yeah, but are they gonna like write a sequel? Are they gonna like what are they gonna do with it? Turn it into a franchise? Like, why would God ever direct his Holy scripture to have the copyright be sold of it to God's Holy Scripture word? Like, I guess the church is glad now it never sold the copyright. But it's just absurd that God would tell Joseph to sell the ownership of the. You know, to sell the copyright to his own holy Scripture. Mike, am I. Am I confused there?

Mike [01:48:15] No. I mean, this is just. It just is another area where you could show that Joseph Smith was always desperate for money and he was always using God to basically find a way to kind of, you know, justify whatever they're doing. And in this case, to your point, like, selling the copyright makes no sense, especially if you believe God is powerful. And it just, again, shows that the God of Mormonism has no power. Because even something as simple as getting a little bit of extra money, God can't come up with a better way outside of sending them to Canada to try to sell the copyright to basically give away the authority of His Word to Canada. It makes no sense. And it just shows, especially these early. Like this one, like Nemo said, the way it reads, it's just. It just is a mess.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] Yeah. And the only thing more silly than the fact that God is telling his one true prophet to sell the rights to his Holy Scripture is that the prophecy doesn't come true. Yeah, right. That's the only.

Nemo [01:49:08] Other Canadians weren't faithful enough.

John Dehlin [01:49:09] Yeah.

Nemo [01:49:10] It's the whole David A. Bednar thing. Do you have faith not to be healed? That's what we're. That's where we're at now with Mormon healings.

John Dehlin [01:49:16] They had the faith to not obtain the copyright, basically.

Nemo [01:49:19] But it's. Again, yeah, it's that whole. Is. Is God really powerful if he's essentially having to say, I will take Zion back by force? If they will submit to my will, I will sell the copyright in Canada if they're faithful enough to have it. It's like, just go ahead and do something. Stop relying on people.

John Dehlin [01:49:38] Yeah.

Mike [01:49:38] I mean, do it, you know, and not to be that person. I mean, I guess I am going to be that person. But, you know, you read the Bible and God is like, I'm displeased with my people. I'm going to flood the whole continent and just destroy and kill innocent children and women and animals and all that. And then in Mormonism, they need like a couple thousand dollars, and God's like, I got nothing, guys. You know, it's just.

Nemo [01:49:58] It doesn't.

Mike [01:49:59] And I'm Not, I'm being facetious, the

Nemo [01:50:01] firstborn of all of. All of Egypt to get his children out of Egypt, but he won't perform a minor miracle to get them some cash.

Mike [01:50:10] Yeah, it just, it's so transparent when you actually, like, try to compare, like, how the, how God is portrayed in the Bible versus how God actually operates within the Mormon Church. So when I say God, I mean the God of Mormonism. And it just, it's one of those things where you read it, like, from an outside perspective. And I know this because I have talked to a few people who are not Mormon. I try to tell them this. They laugh at it because they're like, yeah, he's making it up. Like, there's no. There's no way around it. Because not only is the stuff not coming to pass, but when you read it, you can see that all of the things that he's trying to desire or try to get done benefit Joseph Smith. And those are pretty good signs that it's someone not speaking for God.

John Dehlin [01:50:46] Yeah.

Nemo [01:50:47] And if I can make a linking point there for a second about how we talk about how Jesus is the God of Doctrine and Covenants, and so Jesus is also the God of the Old Testament according to Mormonism, then what you've got is a very good comparison for, well, look at all the things he used to do in the Old Testament to get his way. And now he just stamps his feet and threatens curses, but doesn't actually get involved and do the things that he needs to do to make Joseph Smith successful. So it's like you're comparing the same deity to their own standards. And you found that in, in the Old Testament, they were perfectly willing to get involved and smite people. He was willing to stop the moon in the sky to give people more time to win a battle. Right. He was willing to part the Red Sea, he's willing to kill children. He's willing to do all sorts of things, flood the entire earth, and then you've got Joseph Smith needs of cash. This same deity won't step in.

John Dehlin [01:51:38] Yeah, yeah, suspect. So let's look at how fair Mormon I'm so tired of. I mean, honestly, in 2023, I think fair Mormon, it's safe to say, has become irrelevant. So on the one hand, I'm glad, Mike, you're going to help us put together kind of a record of how dumb and unimpressive and dishonest fair Mormon is. On the other hand, I've told you this before, they're almost not worth the oxygen and the breath. And the time of responding to their dumbness. But let's do it anyway.

Mike [01:52:10] Yeah, I mean, Fair Mormon is just. The responses just don't work. And we've covered that in all of these topics. I've tried to use FAIR or the church's essays, but yeah, I just. This one is what I want to point out because this ties into something we talked about earlier, so it works out well. But this is from Fair Mormon's response to the failed revelation about selling the copyright. And they say Hiram Page, who is one of the individuals sent to Canada, laid out the event in a letter in 1848. Page wrote that the revelation Joseph Smith received conditioned success upon whether those individuals in Canada capable of buying the Book of Mormon copyright would have their hearts softened. When unable to sell the copyright, these four men returned to Palmyra. Hiram Page stated he for the first time understood how some revelations given to people were not necessarily for their direct benefit. In fact, Hiram Page believed that the revelation was actually fulfilled. And so this is what we're talking about early in the episode that people who are literally in the middle of these failed revelations can end up believing even stronger because of the fact that they're basically looking for reasons to make it work even when they watch it fail.

John Dehlin [01:53:16] Yeah. Yep. Okay. Nemo, anything you want to say about Fair Mormon silliness?

Nemo [01:53:23] No, I think their appeal to someone's opinion on the matter over what God actually said should tell you everything you need to know.

John Dehlin [01:53:32] Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the one a lot of people have contributed to this, but one of the things I'm most proud of in the modern Internet age from 2004 to present is how so many people have, have kind of stood up to the silliness of Fair Mormon and Daniel Peterson and Lewis Midgley and John lynch and and Scott Gordon and all the others and just shown how silly Fair Mormon is. And I'm proud that they've become irrelevant in 2023. And I don't say that in a mean spirited way. I think these were people who are trying to do good, just trying to support a church. In some ways they're victims of a broken system, but they're, they're ad hominem. Their mean spiritedness, their viciousness and they're just simply bad, horrible, illogical, specious arguments were an embarrassment to Mormons and Mormonism everywhere. And so I'm glad in 2023 they're pretty much gone and irrelevant.

Nemo [01:54:40] Well, you know who they don't embarrass though? They don't embarrass down H. Oaks. Because if you haven't watched my episode that I did with John when I sent down H. Oaks a letter full of questions about what could be done about dishonesty amongst church leaders, he sent me a Fair Mormon article in return. That's the tldr of that episode. But, yeah, check it out. No, I mean, the church still very much values Fair Mormon, even if the rest of us see through it.

Mike [01:55:04] They do. And that, you know, I. We don't need to belabor this, but Daniel C. Peterson has a book called. He's got a book called Offenders for a Word How Anti Mormons Play Word Games to attack the Latter Day Saints. And it's just like you could read

Nemo [01:55:18] the man that brought you horse equals tapir.

Mike [01:55:20] Yes. To be fair, Daniel C. Peterson doesn't agree.

John Dehlin [01:55:24] You got to point to your taper in the back.

Nemo [01:55:27] Yeah, absolutely. His name is Daniel.

Mike [01:55:29] Yeah. I mean, Daniel C. Peterson is not Fair Mormon. But just the fact that he's sitting there writing a book about how people play word games to attack the church when all he does is twist words in the most ridiculous ways. And there, you know, there's a reason why you don't see someone like Daniel C. Peterson go out and do, like, a public debate with, say, someone like Dan Vogel or John Hamer, because they cannot. What they put out there on FairMormon does not withstand any basic scrutiny, and they know it. And so they stay in their bubble and they just hope they can keep people in the Church who are willing to listen to them for as long as they can. But, yeah, it's. We'll have an episode on Apologetics down the road which will kind of go through that in more detail.

John Dehlin [01:56:06] Well, rest in peace, Fair Mormon. All right, well, we're down to our last failed prophecy. Pestilence, hail, famine, an earthquake will sweep the wicked away. Take it away, Mike.

Pestilence and Ten Tribes Prophecies

Mike [01:56:18] And so this kind of is from a letter in 1833 to N.E. seton. Could be Sexton. I think it was hard to read who was written to. But this is another prophecy that he's giving in the authority of Jesus Christ that pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation off the face of the land. And so I don't know if you were. Nima wants to read kind of the part of the letter where he's giving this revelation or prophecy.

Nemo [01:56:46] I can take that on. And now I am prepared to say, by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such A scene of bloodshed, as is not a parallel in the history of our nation. Pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land and to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri. Therefore, I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow men than their eternal salvation. Therefore fear God and give glory to him, for the hour of his judgment is come. Repent ye. Repent ye and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion before the overflowing scourge overtake you. For there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken fulfilled.

John Dehlin [01:58:13] All right, make sense of that for us, Mike. What did, what did Nemo just read us?

Mike [01:58:17] So this is a prophecy Joseph Smith is giving that within this generation, basically all of the wicked will be swept off the earth. That there's going to be people that are basically going to live to see the second coming. And that's going to happen from pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake. It just didn't happen. I mean, like this just did not happen. And Joseph Smith says, he is saying with the authority of Jesus Christ that it's going to happen within the generation and none of it happens. And so apologists will say the Civil War fulfills this. But the Civil War is not a natural disaster of hail, famine and earthquake and pestilence. It also does not lead to the second coming in this generation. This is just another area where it just. It didn't happen. Like you, you can't read this.

John Dehlin [01:59:03] Let's go to the, let's go to the. Let's go to the next slide.

Mike [01:59:06] Yeah, that's fine.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] So how fair Mormon explains the prophecy.

Mike [01:59:10] So that's how fair Mormon's going to explain it. And so this is what the first part they say there are two aspects to this, to the prophecy. One, destructive destruction of the wicked. These events were certainly seen by the 19th century saints as fulfilled. They saw the Civil war as the culmination of prophecies against wicked people in a wicked nation. And as we mentioned, the prophecy they're referring to is mentioning the bloodshed via Pestilence, hail, famine and earthquake that will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, which is not war. It's just not. And, you know, as we talked about, like with Daniel C. Peterson and the word games, this is how apologists change words in order to make a failed prophecy seem plausible. But it doesn't match what Joseph is saying. The natural disasters that Joseph prophesies are to happen in his generation, this generation. So it can't be pushed aside to a future event like, you know, today or, you know, even in the 1900s. And then fair Mormon continues. They say those now living are to flee to Zion to avoid the scourge, I. E. The destruction, which certainly bypassed the Saints in Utah during the Civil War. The preparation for the return of the ten tribes. And then it says, the critics wish to say that Joseph prophesied the return of the ten tribes, but he did not. He prophesied that those living would see those things necessary to prepare the way for the return of the tribes. The prophecy also noted that this gathering was already beginning as those who embraced the covenant gathered to Zion. And fair here is pretending that Zion is Utah. So it misses the battles of the Civil War. But we all know that Joseph Smith is clear that Zion is in Missouri. So this shows how Fair Mormon is just basically trying to tell you that Zion has a completely different meaning when Joseph gives us revelation, a whole different geographical location and therefore it matches. And it just doesn't. Like, this is just really, really poor apologetics where they're just throwing everything against the wall and they're hoping you're dumb enough not to read what Joseph Smith actually wrote and think for yourself.

Nemo [02:01:06] Yeah, yeah, it doesn't matter if the explanation is any good. There just has to be one.

Mike [02:01:10] Yep, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:01:11] Yeah, well, that's a whole host of failed prophecies that we've listed today. And again, there may be others that people could point to, but I think we've given a pretty solid list.

Mike [02:01:25] Yeah, I'm like, we're not going to cover every single one. And I also want to point out that I was trying very hard to only use revelations where we have Joseph Smith or a contemporaneous account where Joseph is saying he's saying it through the voice of God or with the authority of Jesus Christ, because there are other revelations that are claimed. Like people have said that Joseph claimed that the Kirtland Safety Society bank was going to be the biggest bank in the. In the country or something like that. But I didn't include that because we don't have an instance where we have a real good contemporaneous account saying it. So we're trying, I was trying to pick ones that I think are. Even apologists couldn't say. You're just, you're cherry picking like, you know, third hand accounts or something. And so these are very solid revelations that Joseph Smith is making and they fail. And as we talked about in the Bible, one failed revelation and you do not speak for God, and yet we have a whole bunch of them here.

John Dehlin [02:02:14] So I guess we're not to fear Joseph Smith is what the Bible is leading us to think. And that's good because I don't want to fear anybody, you know, in a godly sense. I think a flip of this episode would be interesting kind of as a gauntlet or as a challenge. I would love to see faithful Mormons, apologetic Mormons, come up with an episode on the fulfilled prophecies of Joseph Smith. And I guess the only criteria that I would want to put forward is it's got to be a prophecy that like, you know, people wouldn't have expected, that wouldn't have naturally come true anyway, that didn't have any scripture editing or changing along the way or wasn't like we talked about last episode backdated. And we've already addressed the Civil War quote prophecy in a previous episode as, as not as not being really an example of anything prophetical. Is that right, Mike?

Mike [02:03:13] Yeah, I mean, and that's the thing, like I've read lists before where they talk about that and they'll have the Civil War or they'll say Joseph will be spoken of for good or evil. We talked about how that was written after that had already happened or, you know, wars and rumors of wars, all of these different things. But yeah, when you really earthquakes, you know, that like stuff that you could prophesy, you know, for any given time from any, you know, given area of the world. So yeah, I would love to see it because I've read some of those lists before. When you read it, you're like, that's for. A lot of times it'll be a prophecy about something and they'll just apply some, you know, kind of like we talked about with COVID where they'll say, oh, the next general conference is going to be unlike any other. And then Covid happens and they're like, that was Russell Nelson prophesying of COVID It's like, no, he was just Talking about the 200th anniversary of the first vision. And so if you don't Redefine revelation and you make it specific, you're not going to find much. And so Joseph Smith's track record, in my opinion, is no better than literally anyone else who makes predictions about stuff they can't possibly know.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] Yeah. And we all know that the Doctrine and Covenants itself declares Joseph Smith a prophet, seer, revelator, and a translator. And so you have to kind of ask yourself. We kind of showed through all, you know, his. All our episodes on translation that he pretty much failed every single attempt he made at translation. Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, you know, Book of Moses, the New Testament, you know, revisions of the. Of the Bible and the Kinderhook plates. It's like, fail, fail, fail, fail. Not a translator. And his prophecies and revelations are not coming true. And then seership, you know, whatever that means. So, Nemo, any final words you want to share before we give Mike the concluding slide?

Final Reflections on Failed Prophecies

Nemo [02:05:02] Just that I think it's really important that you take this on board, those that are watching, along with the other attributes that Joseph Smith. Smith claim to have. I think that is really important. And it's also very important for you. If I wanted to go and read these scriptures yourselves, you put them on the screen, but read it yourself. Have a look. Check it all out. Have a look at what Fair said. You know, don't take our word for it, necessarily. Go do your own research and I think you'll come to the same conclusion, or I would hope that we've done our research well enough that you'll. You'll see that it's solid.

John Dehlin [02:05:37] And if any of you want to tell us we're wrong, please go into the comments on YouTube or on Facebook and tell us the prophecies you're aware of or tell us where we got something wrong. Because if we've made any mistakes in this series, unlike Dallin H. Oaks or the Church, we're willing to apologize and admit it and correct it. So, Mike, why don't you take us through the final slide?

Mike [02:06:01] Yeah, the final slide. You know, it's just kind of this episode and our last episode, just covering Joseph's revelations, and it's just a point which we just said we couldn't cover every single one of them, but just hopefully the patterns from last week or our last episode on Revelation and then from today on the failed revelations, you know, it gives you a clear way to look at, you know, not just why they were written, but, like, the context that Joseph was writing them in and the needs that were being served by them. And Just to note that, you know, Joseph was using revelations in a lot of different ways, whether it was to get out of a tough situation, to re. Establish credibility, to adjust to newer theologies, or as we mentioned, to get people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do, which we talked about today with Zion's camp. And so as we discussed, you know, in our first episode on kind of backdating Revelation, it's striking that Joseph's revelations cannot seem to predict the future. And in the few instances where he tries to do so, whether it's building a temple in Missouri or taking Zion by power, he fails. And, you know, the thing is, we're told one failed revelation makes you a false prophet. And Joseph Smith gives us a bunch of them throughout his fairly short time as the leader of the Mormon Church. And it, just as we've talked about in these episodes, if you view them the same way you would view any other religious leader, you would look at it and go, yeah, that person absolutely is not a prophet because they keep getting it wrong over and over again. And you have to be willing to apply consistent kind of logical applications of these instances to Mormonism. And you cannot rely on special pleading to say, well, yeah, David Crush was clearly making it up, but Joseph Smith has it right because we have a lot of records. As Nemo said, don't, don't trust what we're saying. You know, you could read the page on, on LDS discussions.com there's links to Fair Mormon's response, there's links to the church's response. You can read their response and see if they make sense. And I just, I think you get to a point where it's like, as we've said in previous episodes, if you had a watch and the watch was wrong four times, five times, would you keep using that watch? Or would you say, this watch clearly does not do what it's supposed to? And with Joseph Smith, it's the same thing. If he can't get it right, then does he speak for God? And if he doesn't speak for God, what. What really is he providing to. To anyone?

Nemo [02:08:14] All right, the problem is a broken watch is right twice a day. And so you get the slight incidences where someone will say something slightly profound or a prophet will say something that someone finds slightly helpful and they'll just. Just cling to that. And I think that's how people do stay involved, even in, in while confronting a lot of these problems, historical and current.

Mike [02:08:33] Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [02:08:35] Yeah. Well, the truth is, most people stay Mormon or religious because of community ties, because of family ties, because it makes them feel happier, makes them feel like their life has purpose or meaning, or they've had emotional experiences that they've interpreted to mean that the church is true. And ultimately, it's because they feel like the church works for them. And so it makes sense that in spite of the evidence, people retain their faith. It's because, you know, humanity hasn't figured out a better way to make people happy in a way that would make people want to let go of their faith and follow something better. So in some sense, it's humanity's job to figure out how to bring people meaning and joy and fulfillment and community and resolutions about the afterlife, or it doesn't matter what the evidence shows. People are gonna stick with what's working. So. All right, so that concludes episode 37 of the LDS discussion series. Mike, we can't thank you enough for all your amazing work. You're a legend, and we're grateful for you and thank you.

Closing Remarks and Acknowledgments

Mike [02:09:48] Well, yeah, thanks to everyone who stuck with the series. And I think our next episode is going to be a lot of fun because it's going to really take us from Joseph Smith to the present day. So we're going to look at John Taylor's revelation on polygamy. We're going to look at a couple of Russell Nelson's revelations since he's become prophet, and kind of see if we can get a better understanding of what a prophet is and where they're pulling inspiration or revelation from. And I think that next week's episode will be a little bit of a turn from looking at the, like, the very founding of the church to giving us more of a modern perspective. So I'm actually looking forward to kind of moving into the modern day on this stuff.

John Dehlin [02:10:24] Excellent. Thanks, Mike And Nemo, it's always great to have you. We celebrate you, who you are, and your channel, Nemo the Mormon. And we hope everyone will subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast on YouTube and on Facebook. Facebook for the algorithms and to help us grow. And we also hope people will follow Nemo the Mormon Channel and subscribe and donate to you.

Nemo [02:10:45] Yeah. Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to be here.

John Dehlin [02:10:47] All right, all right, everyone. And please, if you value this content with LDS discussions, we want to pay Nemo for his support. And just recently, we. We were able to twist Mike's arm and convince him to let us give him some honorariums for his amazing work. So if you value this content, if you want to see it continue, if you want to show Mike your appreciation, please give us. Please consider donating to Mormon Stories podcast. You can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor, and we'll not only finish out this series on LDS discussions, but we'll figure out how to parlay Mike and Nemo's brilliance into possible future series or future episodes as well. How does that sound, Nemo?

Nemo [02:11:39] Oh, yeah. I've got some ideas.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] Are you up for more, Mike?

Mike [02:11:43] I mean, maybe not with Nemo, but maybe for something.

John Dehlin [02:11:46] Yeah, because Nemo's a bit of a pain, right? He's a bit of a.

Mike [02:11:48] He is. Ever since I met him, he's been nothing but trouble. You guys should see the messages he sends when we're not recording. They are some of the most rude, slanderous. You just. You have no idea how British people work until you have to talk to them behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [02:12:04] Nemo, you're a scoundrel. I had no idea you were a scoundrel, Nemo.

Nemo [02:12:09] I just have to deal with ungrateful colonials all day, so, yeah, I've got to.

John Dehlin [02:12:13] No, I get it.

Mike [02:12:15] Nemo has been awesome, and he's been just so much fun to get to know. And, you know, I've said it before, but, you know, one of the reasons that Nemo is so nice to work with is that he doesn't. He takes an approach that I like to take, which is, you know, the fact that we're trying to deal with this as gentle as we can, and we're not trying to just, like, firebomb the crap out of everything. And so I. I always appreciate that, because I think it. It's hard enough to learn this stuff as it is. And so to have outlets that are more gentle with you, I think is helpful, just because, like I said, we've all been there where you find the stuff out, and it sucks. And so if you can have people that can kind of maybe guide you through it a little bit less emotionally, it can help. I know we don't always succeed there, but anyways, I take. I retract my criticisms of Nemo. He's actually very fun to work with.

Nemo [02:12:59] He's. He's a fan of my cold British heart is what he said.

Mike [02:13:02] Exactly. I do. I love it.

John Dehlin [02:13:04] All right, well, thanks, gentlemen. We also want to thank Maven for all her work behind the scenes of making all this possible. Gerardo for the thumbnails and Julia for the shorts and Brooklyn for the video editing. There's a whole team of a production team here at Mormon Stories, along with our board of directors, Clint Martin and Kerry Whitbeck. A lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes to keep this organization alive and to allow us to keep doing what we do. So thanks to everyone who supports us. Please support us if you can, and we love you guys. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories and on LDS discussions. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.