Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guests: Allan Mount, Kattie Mount, Natasha Helfer
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Episode Introduction
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is August 15, 2023, and today in studio, we are super excited to be addressing the topic 10 Ways I Almost Wrecked my Mixed Faith Marriage. And we are so excited to have in studio back with us the co founders of not only the Marriage on a Tightrope podcast, but also the Marriage on a Tightrope Facebook community and also the Workshop on a Tightrope Marriage Mixed faith marriage workshop. We have Kattie Mount back in studio. Hey, Kattie.
Kattie Mount [00:00:37] Hi. Thanks for having us.
John Dehlin [00:00:38] Welcome back. And we have Allan. Allan Mount. Hey, Allan.
Allan Mount [00:00:43] Hello, John. Kattie, you are far away and I miss you. Hello, lovely people.
Natasha Helfer [00:00:47] It's good to see you.
John Dehlin [00:00:49] And we also have back in studio for the umpteenth time, the not Natasha Helfer of Symmetry Solutions. Hey, Natasha.
Natasha Helfer [00:00:58] Hello, everybody. So glad to be here.
John Dehlin [00:01:00] Good. Well, when I started Mormon Stories podcast 18 years ago, helping save marriages was one of my primary motivations. And for a long, long time, Natasha Helfer and I did our best to create workshops and retreats and content to help save marriages. And while my focus has turned mostly to the podcast, these days, I was so relieved when Allan and Kattie Mount stepped up and started their podcast called Marriage on a Tightrope, which is for sure the most important resource out there if you're looking to improve, heal and or save your mixed faith marriage. And I should add that it's not just Mormon mixed faith marriages, but I think this is a resource that's useful for anyone of any faith tradition. But there's more. There's a Facebook group for Marriage on a Tightrope community. It's got like four or five thousand people at this point. Is that right?
Allan Mount [00:02:07] Yep.
Kattie Mount [00:02:07] Yeah, it does.
John Dehlin [00:02:08] It's a huge community. And there are these amazing Marco Polo groups as well of faithful women spouses, faithful male spouses, faith, you know, non believing husbands, non believing wives. And these communities really help each other. And every quarter or so, Allan and Kattie team with Natasha to do something they call Workshop on a Tightrope, which if you go to the description on Facebook or on YouTube or wherever you're experiencing this podcast, you can click on that workshop and register for it. There's registrations open right now, and if you're watching this in a month or two or three, a good chance there'll be another one waiting for you at that point.
Meet the Guests and Their Story
John Dehlin [00:02:57] But today I asked Allan and Kattie to come and give us 10 tips. Things that they learned and mistakes that they made that weren't necessarily useful for their marriage, and things they learned from those mistakes with the intent of helping you.
John Dehlin [00:03:21] If you're in a mixed faith marriage, maybe avoid harming your relationship as well. And I should add, Natasha Helfer runs Symmetry Solutions and is available as a marriage and family therapist, as a licensed sex therapist, and as a coach.
John Dehlin [00:03:41] And she is available to help as a marriage therapist, as a relationship therapist. And she also has people working for her as well who can meet your needs in terms of therapy and coaching. And if I haven't said enough, I will say that you can check out more Marriage on a Tightrope or Workshop on a Tightrope.
John Dehlin [00:04:04] In the description, you can find information about the Marriage on a Tightrope podcast. The last thing I want to say about that is Allan and Kattie are sort of launching 2.0 of their podcast and they need financial support. And so I want to be the first to ask everyone of my audience to go to their website and sign up as a monthly contributor to support what they're doing. Because just like Mormon Stories podcast back in 2010 made a deal with our audience. If you will become a monthly donor to Mormon Stories, then I will create weekly or regular content for you to support you in your faith journey.
John Dehlin [00:04:48] So many of you stepped up and that was the birth of of Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation as a nonprofit. Kattie and Allan are starting a nonprofit for Marriage on a Tightrope and they're launching a YouTube channel as well as a relaunch of their podcast 2.0. And what they need are regular donors to sign up and start supporting them financially so that they can use that money to create excellent content and to save marriages. So again, go to the links.
John Dehlin [00:05:19] If you go to the description in this episode, you can click on a link to their website and become a monthly donor through DonorBox. And I promise you they're gonna use that money to help your marriage and to help marriages for years and possibly decades to come now.
Kattie Mount [00:05:35] Oh, don't tell us decades. You're committing us to decades.
John Dehlin [00:05:41] How much are you signing up for, Kattie?
Kattie Mount [00:05:43] Well, I guess we'll see a year.
John Dehlin [00:05:45] A year.
Allan Mount [00:05:45] For better or worse.
Kattie Mount [00:05:47] For better or worse. That's right.
Allan Mount [00:05:48] For decades. That was part of the V, right? I think that was part of the. John, can I please one quick. Actually, two quick things. So one flashing on the screen was tightropemarriage.org that is currently in the process of being redirected to the. To the proper website. So in the description, if you are looking for our website and information on the course or access to all of the podcast feeds, et cetera, you can go to your podcast app, but you can also in the link in the description is where you can get that. Now, if you're not watching live, it's probably already sorted out, so forget what I said. The second thing you brought up. The Marco Polo groups. The most monumental thing in our entire mixed faith marriage happened today. Do you know what it is, Kattie?
Kattie Mount [00:06:29] I have no idea. This is actually scaring me. It's scaring me that I don't know what is it.
Allan Mount [00:06:34] So I am in the non believing husband Marco Polo groups and they created a new channel today called Wives Fantasy Football league. And Kattie agreed to join a fantasy football league with other believing wives. And I could not be more ecstatic.
Natasha Helfer [00:06:55] This is the most monumental thing you've ever done.
Allan Mount [00:06:58] This is a breakthrough in our marriage. We are bonding.
Kattie Mount [00:07:01] You're not even a football fan. You're a baseball fan.
Allan Mount [00:07:03] But I am a sport and fantasy fan. I love. I love make believe and you are joining that with me and I'm just so excited.
Kattie Mount [00:07:10] Oh, gosh.
Allan Mount [00:07:11] Erase. That's all we need to say. We don't need to go through this.
John Dehlin [00:07:14] We can end the podcast now.
Allan Mount [00:07:15] Yes, that's right.
Kattie Mount [00:07:18] I don't even have the words right now.
John Dehlin [00:07:21] Perfect. All right, well, thanks for that, Allan. That was a really important contribution.
Allan Mount [00:07:26] Super important, super important.
John Dehlin [00:07:29] Kattie, anything you want to add to my super long intro?
Kattie Mount [00:07:32] No. I appreciate you giving us this time and platform to talk to everyone. We've been trying to get our name out there, be more visible, and YouTube is a great way to do that. But also having this new way of being able to contribute with donating every month, this is going to help us get everything off the ground. We've been doing it for five years and we feel like it's time to put in more effort and time into the podcast because it's really helpful to a lot of people. So thank you very much for having us.
John Dehlin [00:08:10] Our pleasure. And Natasha, anything you want to add?
Natasha Helfer [00:08:12] No, that was great. I super excited to be part of this work. And I think one of the things that you said was it isn't. Even though we all come from the LDS Latter Day Saint Mormon community, at Symmetry Solutions, we're seeing people call from Jewish Orthodox communities, evangelical communities, Jehovah's Witness communities, Southern Baptist communities. We even have a few Sikh clients. So again, like, there's many, many people in this mixed marriage space. And you're really one of the only resources I know of that I feel very comfortable referring to on a Regular. So you've done incredible work. You've done incredible work with this podcast.
Allan Mount [00:08:57] Thank you. Thank you, Natasha.
John Dehlin [00:08:58] And Natasha, you're one of the world's experts as a therapist to mixed faith marriages and marriages impacted by faith journeys or faith crises.
Natasha Helfer [00:09:07] So, yeah, thank you.
John Dehlin [00:09:08] I got to call that out.
Natasha Helfer [00:09:09] Agree with that, even though it feels weird. But yes, thank you.
John Dehlin [00:09:12] Own your power, Natasha.
Natasha Helfer [00:09:14] Own my power.
John Dehlin [00:09:16] All right. So thanks for bearing with the introductions. If they annoy you, you can always skip them. Like YouTube's got a fast forward feature. Podcasts have a fast forward feature. Sometimes people complain about our intros. I try to keep them tight. I needed to plug you guys, so I did it. Apologies, but no apologies. Sorry, not sorry.
Natasha Helfer [00:09:35] Sorry, not sorry.
Why Mixed-Faith Marriages Struggle
John Dehlin [00:09:36] Now to the regular feature of today's episode. If you are at a mixed faith marriage, you are likely experiencing a lot of pain, a lot of difficulty. It is one of the hardest things that people face when dealing with a faith journey and when you're in a high demand religion, it's even compounded. And so what I asked Kattie and Allan to do is to come up with a list of top 10, you know, top 10 ways that they almost wrecked their marriage. And what they're going to do is they're going to alternate. So we're going to have them each share five things Kattie still identifies. How do you identify Kattie in terms of your affiliation with the LDS Church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
Kattie Mount [00:10:22] Sure, I would say that I'm nuanced. I'm still in, I'm still active, but I've just learned to be very flexible and I'm fairly nuanced in some of my views and thoughts about the church. So.
John Dehlin [00:10:37] But still a believer, right? I mean, on some level, right?
Kattie Mount [00:10:40] Yeah, on some level. There are things that I still love and still hold dear and there are other things that I've let go of. But yeah, still very, so very part of the community.
John Dehlin [00:10:51] And like the 30 seconds intro of you and your background and you know, you are just like, give that 30 second elevator pitch about Kattie Mount. For those who don't know.
Kattie Mount [00:11:01] Okay, so for those who don't know me, yeah, I grew up very LDs in a very orthodox home. Allan and I met on the mission. We got married and forbidden romance. As forbidden romance. That's right. About seven years ago, Allan started to have a faith shift and I didn't know about it for a little while and we'll talk about that. And so when he did finally tell me, I felt like we probably wouldn't stay together because I didn't know that there were any resources available. I couldn't find any resources. And so the podcast was born. And here we are today.
John Dehlin [00:11:44] And you've been married for a total of how many years?
Kattie Mount [00:11:47] It'll be 19 this December.
John Dehlin [00:11:50] And congratulations.
Kattie Mount [00:11:51] Thank you, thank you.
John Dehlin [00:11:52] And dealing with the mixed faith marriage for how many years? You said 7.
Kattie Mount [00:11:55] 6.
John Dehlin [00:11:55] 6. 6.
Kattie Mount [00:11:56] That I've known of. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:11:58] Okay. All right, Allan, quick background for you. Anything you want to add?
Allan Mount [00:12:02] Yeah, I mean, half of what I would have said, Kattie just said, but hey, I originally grew up in Santa Barbara, California and moved to Utah 2004. That was post mission.
John Dehlin [00:12:12] Play volleyball for BYU.
Allan Mount [00:12:16] Did play volleyball at UCLA and BYU. You can Google it. It's not a lie. But that was 60 pounds ago and about 18 inches of vertical leap ago.
Kattie Mount [00:12:27] And hair.
John Dehlin [00:12:28] And hey, how much hair ago?
Allan Mount [00:12:30] We're really bringing me down to size here. But met Kattie in Barcelona, Spain, technically in the MTC and moved to Utah in 2004. And I think the countdown is at about 16 months until I've been in Utah as long as I was in California. And Kattie is teasing me relentlessly of like, you're no longer Californian, you're a Utahn. I love Utah, though. It's beautiful. It's a good place to raise, raise our family. And we've built a great family. And I'm grateful that we've been able to really work through a lot of the challenges and struggles that come because of a mixed faith marriage. Just the things you have to work through.
Allan Mount [00:13:10] Because honestly, our marriage is stronger today than it ever has been. And that is not an accident that typically happens in a mixed faith marriage if both parties want it and they work at it and they have the resources and the tools to go there. So I think one thing, Kattie, if you want to just like get to know us a little bit, bullet point version. Kattie's a Disney mom. She absolutely, in every way, not just loves going to Disney, which she absolutely does.
Allan Mount [00:13:39] When's the next trip? Oogie Boogie Bash, Fall break. Yes, that's right. We're going to the Oogie Boogie Bash. Look it up. It's wonderful. Definitely loves Taylor Swift. Is trying to figure out how to get to that ERAS tour for a second time.
Kattie Mount [00:13:54] I'll get there. Somehow.
Allan Mount [00:13:55] Somehow. We have four wonderful children, ages 9 to 17, and each of them gives us a run for our money in some way. And we love them and it's great. And that's us.
John Dehlin [00:14:05] And Allan's a Dodgers fan. Is that an understatement?
Allan Mount [00:14:08] No. They are my fifth child, Clayton Kershaw. If Clayton Kershaw asked me to leave my family to live with him, you would do polygamy?
John Dehlin [00:14:17] If Kershaw was.
Allan Mount [00:14:19] If it was Clayton. That's it. Only if it was Clayton Kershaw.
John Dehlin [00:14:21] Kattie, does he have your permission for that? Sure.
Allan Mount [00:14:24] Is he my hall pass?
Kattie Mount [00:14:24] He's gonna. He's gonna be. He's. I mean, he's paying the bill.
Allan Mount [00:14:29] He can afford it. He can afford it.
John Dehlin [00:14:32] You heard it here.
Allan Mount [00:14:32] First way, number one, we break.
Kattie Mount [00:14:36] This is really good for the therapist to chime in.
John Dehlin [00:14:38] Just problematic. Natasha, Natasha, you're poised to help with this.
Natasha Helfer [00:14:42] I am saying humor is a wonderful tool.
John Dehlin [00:14:45] Yes.
Natasha Helfer [00:14:47] In marriage.
Allan Mount [00:14:48] That's right.
Natasha Helfer [00:14:49] In any relationship.
John Dehlin [00:14:50] All right, so that's a great intro. So. So, Allan, you. You were the first in your relationship to sort of have that jolt of struggling with your Mormon faith. And. Yeah. And so I think we've got the first point for you, and feel free to give a little bit of background about your faith journey. But the first point that we're going to share today is Allan's point. Point number one. Allan's saying one of the mistakes he made is he kept his feelings and what he was learning from Kattie.
Allan's Faith Transition and Leaving the Church
Allan Mount [00:15:25] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:15:25] And I want to hear all about that. So take it away, Allan.
Allan Mount [00:15:28] Yeah, this is a little trickier than it seems, because the. The advice may seem to be, on the surface level, very simple of, oh, just talk about it from the get go. It's so much easier that way. But really, it's much more complex than that. And if you're at the very beginning of A, there's cracks in the. In the faith shell, and you're learning some things and you're thinking about things, and you're starting to feel like there are things shifting. What happened with me, and this is not for everybody, but what happened with me is I felt like if I kept digging, I would find what I was looking for and everything would be okay.
Allan Mount [00:16:07] Meaning. And to be frank, everything is okay, and it has been okay. But with the definition of every, I would discover that any questions, any doubts that I had were answered just by looking a little bit deeper. So the tendency that we have seen a lot, and certainly I fell into this category, was I'm not going to really involve Kattie in this process because, A, it's personal to me.
Allan Mount [00:16:35] This is not her journey. This is my personal spiritual journey. And that is true. And B, I felt like I was just around the corner from Sorting it out and returning into full fellowship and full activity within, within my, my LDS faith.
John Dehlin [00:16:51] So was it, I mean, were you like learning history stuff? Were you learning.
Allan Mount [00:16:55] For me it was, it started with a lot of history stuff. It very quickly snowballed into modern issues with the church.
John Dehlin [00:17:04] Cultural issues.
Allan Mount [00:17:05] Exactly. One thing that, that and, and you'll hear it in, in this episode as well is when you're on Marriage on
John Dehlin [00:17:12] a tightrope, do you guys try to avoid talking about just.
Allan Mount [00:17:16] Yeah, that's exactly what I was just about to explain is as far as our content goes, we will talk about how we work through things, but we're very careful to be as safe as absolutely possible for anyone on any spectrum of belief. We have. Everyone from the most staunch of Richard Dawkins could listen to our podcast all the way to the most orthodox of believer. And neither one of those I'm mentioning in a derogatory way. That really is our goal. So we won't get into like the details on our podcast. And we're not going to, hey, this episode, we're going to debate the Book of Abraham. Like that's not what we do.
John Dehlin [00:17:58] Okay, so you were learning stuff in a Mormon context that was disturbing to you.
Allan Mount [00:18:04] Correct.
John Dehlin [00:18:05] And then you were trying to decide if you wanted to let Kattie know about that or not.
Allan Mount [00:18:09] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:18:09] And your fears, repeat your fears.
Allan Mount [00:18:12] Yeah, I mean, it was not so much a fear. It was. I felt like I was always on the cusp of figuring it out, that I didn't bring it up to Kattie because I didn't think that the conclusion was gonna be, I no longer believed and I'm gonna leave the church.
John Dehlin [00:18:28] Well, I mean, I just have to add that for the tens of thousands of people I've interacted with, fear is often the reason why they don't share with their partner. In a high demand religion, you're afraid your partner's gonna leave you, that they may, you know, Natasha can speak to this, maybe even engage in a custody battle where there's parental alienation or you're just afraid they're gonna be disapp. You look down on you be disappoint. And then also sometimes you're afraid you might disrupt their lives, cause them sadness. Sure, yeah. So anything from full on divorce to just not wanting to upend their lives or make your marriage unhappy, those are some of the real fears that I've heard. Natasha, is there anything else you would add to that?
Natasha Helfer [00:19:16] I think, Allan, what you're talking about, about is really the very beginning when you haven't really made any decisions yet. Right. And so it's that beginning process where you're just starting to look into things, you're starting to have some different ideas, you're striving, you're, you're, you're thinking there will be a solution to this doubt or idea that I've had. So why even bother my spouse with this? Because I'm sure in the next few weeks or hours, I'll figure it out.
Allan Mount [00:19:41] I'm going to sort this out.
Natasha Helfer [00:19:42] Whereas I think what you're talking about, John, is more like once a person has really transitioned and now really kind of has maybe lost their belief testimony they still haven't shared with their spouse, then I think those fears are much more palatable. Yeah.
Mistake One: Keeping Secrets from Your Spouse
Allan Mount [00:19:57] A lot of what we're going to talk about today on this list are things if you, the listener or viewer went and made a list that you would expect us to talk about, you'll come up with most of the list. This one is actually really hard to predict because by the time you're watching one of these feeds, you basically have decided where you're at. And it's almost too late to incorporate this advice, which is. I had a missionary companion very early on come to me and we went to lunch, and he asked the question of, hey, I'd love to learn more about what you've learned about. He was at square is square zero or square one? He was at square one. He was at the very beginning of the journey.
Natasha Helfer [00:20:36] I had square one and ground zero,
Allan Mount [00:20:38] ground zero and square. He was at ground zero. We'll say that. He asked me, what would you read if I were to go and read, educate myself on what you have learned. And my advice was, actually, you know what, whatever you do, just, I would recommend at least inviting your, your partner, if this is important to you, invite your partner to go through this with you.
Allan Mount [00:21:00] And I for the details. I pointed to things on the LDS website. That's what I did to him. And he went and he went and had that entire journey with his, with his partner. And that's something that we did not do, that by the time I was ready to confront the fear, the fear was there before. The fear's not really there because you're both on the same page in many cases. But then finally, when I was ready to bring it up with Kattie, there was fear because I had changed. And also, I was so much further along in this journey that was going to be hard to, like, catch her up.
Allan Mount [00:21:35] And at that point, it was there's biases and there's ulterior motives and there's this, this backfire effect of trying to convince somebody, and that never works. And all of a sudden now it's like, oof, rubber has hit the road with this mixed faith marriage. And we're, we're dealing with some pretty complex stuff.
John Dehlin [00:21:50] So, Kattie, I can. So, Allan, I can see why at the early stages of your studying, you didn't feel like it was maybe even worth bringing up. But, but, you know, eventually you did go down the rabbit hole and there were major problems. So, Kattie, let's just assume at whatever point Allan was not wanting to upset your life, not wanting to add stress to the marriage and not wanting to blow up the marriage. And so in his mind he's saying, well, I'm just, I better just not tell her. Can you represent a believing spouse and explain why maybe that in the end isn't even what you might have wanted?
Kattie Mount [00:22:29] Right. I didn't want that to be fair. He told me that he had had some questions surrounding some of the things he had learned. And he told me that he was going to go look at information, and I was pretty confident he would find what he was looking for, that he would figure it out and everything would be okay. In fact, you could even say I had like a calm. Like, I felt like God was like, it's okay, he'll figure it out. And so that was actually really confusing to me when he did tell me that he no longer believed in the truth claims, but as the believer, it felt almost like an affair, that he had gone and done something that was behind my back that I knew nothing about, and he had been doing it in secret and it wasn't even like that.
Kattie Mount [00:23:29] But that's what it felt like. That's how heavy it felt and the impact it had just on me. And I was super concerned about a lot of things right off the bat, but it was almost like betrayal. And it took a while for me to sort of get out of the mindset that he wasn't trying to betray me.
John Dehlin [00:23:51] Yeah, yeah, Natasha, we talk about this a lot in the retreats we've done that. You know, they're already going to be. You make this commitment in a Mormon marriage. When you get married, it's for eternity and you both have an understanding and an agreement that you're going to stay faithful to the gospel and to the church, not just through this entire life, but into the eternities. So that already feels like a breach of the agreement of the contract.
John Dehlin [00:24:21] So if you add to that things like hiding, that you're hiding things from your spouse, and then also if you like, secretly take off your garments, start secretly drinking, secretly, stop paying your tithing, anything you do to add additional ammunition to this concern about being deceived is just going to compound your problems. Even though you think you're saving your spouse from pain or suffering, you oftentimes are going to contribute more to it. Natasha, what would you add to that?
Natasha Helfer [00:24:54] Yeah, I usually talk about the protective intimacy model, which is, I think, what most of us are given in this country, not just even in Mormonism, but it's this idea that we will protect each other, we will love each other, we will care for each other. And especially in high demand religions, a lot of times this is actually gendered in language where men are told, protect your innocent wives, protect your delicate, beautiful, fragile women. And women are oftentimes told, you know, to be caretakers, to be comforters. So there's a lot of caring for which is protection. The problem with protection is that it's different than being seen.
Natasha Helfer [00:25:30] Right? So when you think about intimacy and I first heard this from you, John, it's like into me. See, you know, it's a different format than actually protecting. If I want to protect you, that means I kind of have to hide the parts of me that would make you uncomfortable. But if I'm gonna be intimate with you, I'm gonna show up honestly. And you know, truthfully. But most of us don't have a lot of practice with that. So with protection, like Allan was mentioning, we're either wanting to protect ourselves, like from your wrath. Right. I have to protect myself from your wrath against me, or I'm gonna protect you from how I think what's happening here is going to hurt you. Either way, even though it's well intentioned, it doesn't really increase intimacy and closeness.
John Dehlin [00:26:14] Totally, totally. And I like to just remind people, I often hear I don't want to hurt my spouse. And I would say it's going to hurt. Right, Kattie? It's going to hurt.
Kattie Mount [00:26:25] It's going to hurt.
John Dehlin [00:26:25] It is going to hurt. You can't avoid the pain, but there's a difference. And Noah Rochetta was really helpful in helping me understand this in his Secular Buddhism podcast. There's a difference between pain and suffering, and it will hurt, but hurt doesn't always damage. Sometimes, like you guys said, your marriage is stronger now that you've been through this. So it was painful, but you've grown stronger. What you don't want to do is damage. So don't try and avoid the hurt and then create more damage. Just accept that there's going to be pain. Tell your spouse and avoid her or he him or they avoid them feeling the betrayal.
Natasha Helfer [00:27:10] And right along with that, I'll say, like, the faith transition is going to hurt because as you said, John, it's the change of the initial agreement. But when you add betrayal, which is this hidden stuff, that's a secondary hurt now that you now have to deal with two types of hurt. So that's what we're trying to help you avoid.
John Dehlin [00:27:29] Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, well, that's one. One down. One down, Kattie, the next one. We'll put this on the screen. This is yours prejudging how others would respond. So, taking us to the story of yours, mixed faith marriage journey. Talk us into this point. What's the background to this point?
Mistake Two: Prejudging How Others Will React
Kattie Mount [00:27:50] Right. So at this point, Allan had told me that he no longer believed in the truth claims of the church. And I was the primary president at the time. And I remember that I spent probably six or seven months in a super dark place. And I kept thinking how disappointed people would feel like who?
John Dehlin [00:28:12] If they knew like who.
Kattie Mount [00:28:13] Well, for example, I thought that it would be hard for me to tell my primary presidency because what would they say if I told them my husband no longer believed in the church? Here I am the primary president and we present as this super happy family. But yet I was hiding a lot of pain, a lot of suffering that I was going through quietly by myself. And in my mind, I kept thinking, oh, my gosh, I was judging them for how they would judge me back, which I think we do a lot of. I did that with my family.
Kattie Mount [00:28:53] I decided to put off pretty crucial conversations with family and close friends because I was so concerned about how they would perceive me. I am a people pleaser at the heart of everything I do, and I didn't want anything to look negatively on me or my family. And so I did a lot of this dialogue in my head of how this conversation or how the thoughts would go when I told someone. And I found myself constantly prejudging these close family members and friends. Worse, you know, when we finally got to the conversation, were some of them. Right on. Yeah. But also some of them surprised me.
John Dehlin [00:29:37] How so?
Kattie Mount [00:29:39] Well, I was surprised by how some of them really stepped up, asked me about the podcast, asked how they could listen because they were seeking to understand where I was coming from and how some of them took both me and Allan to lunch just to Let us talk it out and tell our story. And that's a really difficult thing in Mormon world for us to sit in discomfort and listen to why someone has left the tribe. That's a really hard thing to do. And I was surprised when some responded positively. So I.
John Dehlin [00:30:17] Did you ever have anybody say, me too, I'm going through something similar?
Kattie Mount [00:30:21] Well, yes, but it came quite down the line, and now it's. I mean, I feel like it's a really big gift that we've been given that we can be honest with others, we can be honest with each other, and people can come and tell us things that have nothing to do with leaving the church, but really hard things that are happening in their lives because we. We don't judge them because we have. We're living, you know, our own life. And I also think there was a little bit of a coming of age for me in realizing I couldn't please everybody, and that was okay. And that was a very big positive that I took away from the experience.
John Dehlin [00:31:02] I want to get Natasha in on this, but before I do, Allan, what was it like for you to feel that Kattie was worried about how others were responding? That in some sense, and these are my words, not hers or yours, that you were kind of her dirty little secret kind of thing? You know what I mean?
Allan Mount [00:31:21] No, I know what you mean. You know what you mean. It's challenging because especially personality wise, I'm extremely extroverted. I kind of wear my emotions and my story on my sleeve. And for pretty early on, I made the choice of regardless, come what may, to quote Moulin Rouge, my favorite Ewan McGregor movie, come what May, I was going to be me. To quote Sammy Davis Jr. All right,
John Dehlin [00:31:49] enough of the quotes.
Allan Mount [00:31:49] Okay, I'm sorry. Gosh, I just.
John Dehlin [00:31:51] Trying to keep fresh.
Allan Mount [00:31:52] Trying to keep fresh.
John Dehlin [00:31:54] Love it.
Allan Mount [00:31:55] So it was challenging for me, but also I understood and I do feel, and this actually isn't one of our points, but something that Natasha talks a lot about in the podcast or, excuse me, in the workshop, is especially at the beginning, I felt like even though this was a change that was happening to me, Kattie truly was collateral damage of the changes happening to me. And because of that, I felt like I needed to show more patience in this situation, especially at the beginning, as our dynamic situation changed, that I needed to be a little bit more patient. And so in that way, for me personally, it wasn't a huge, huge deal that Kattie wasn't ready to have those conversations or didn't have those conversations early on.
Allan Mount [00:32:45] I fully recognize that is not how everyone feels. Some people are just chomping at the bit to say, I've got, I want to go have this conversation now. We did tell her family pretty early on, but that was me and we're going to get to that here pretty soon. Does that answer your question?
John Dehlin [00:33:00] Yeah, I think so, yeah. Natasha, I'm curious. You know, there's such a, for whatever reason, there's such a people pleasing mentality in my view within Mormonism and a parent pleasing mentality within Mormonism and award community and leadership pleasing mentality. It's like everybody's paralyzed to speak honestly and vulnerably and candidly because they're just afraid of disappointing everyone. And I'll add that the non believing spouse, it's particularly toxic because on the one hand they feel bad for disappointing everyone and upsetting everyone's apple cart, but on the other hand they feel like they're stepping into truth. They feel like they're stepping into honesty and integrity. And so they, they feel bad, but they also feel proud, but they also feel guilty, but they also feel defensive.
John Dehlin [00:33:57] And so it's really messy. So Natasha, what do you do with, with these, with these Mormons that are just worried about anybody knowing because they want to keep everybody thinking good things about them.
Natasha Helfer [00:34:11] Yeah, you know, right.
John Dehlin [00:34:13] Do you get that a lot?
Natasha Helfer [00:34:13] Yeah, well, sure. I mean, I think what we're talking about is group dynamics and we're all affected by group dynamics. Now some, some groups tend to be a little bit more enmeshed and some groups tend to be a little bit more differentiated. I would say high demand religions like Mormonism tend to be more enmeshed. Right. So there's less tolerance, less practice, less ability to tolerate, the ability for us to have differences, differences in opinion, differences in belief. That's more difficult for us. As far as people pleasing, I would say, well, the opposite of people pleasing is like sociopathy. Right. So there's, there's some, some of this that's actually normal and that's good for communities to care about what other people think about you.
Natasha Helfer [00:34:53] So, so that's kind of built into our wiring. But sometimes that can go so far that now, like you said, we're paralyzed or we're not able to really go forward in ways that are healthy for us because we're more worried about the group than we then we're able to worry about ourselves. So this is a tension that I think is very paramount in all of these faith transitioning journeys. Whether you're the believer, whether you're the transitioner you're going to be worried about. What are our family going to think? What's my spouse going to think? What are our kids going to think? What's our community going to think?
Natasha Helfer [00:35:24] These are really normal things. So, I mean, there's a lot of solutions to this. One of them that I think about right away is just pacing. You know, like Allan mentioned, patience. Sometimes we have to think about how are we going to come out to our families and to our groups, what timelines, with what language, who's going to say what to who. And this can feel very contrary because there's two things that are happening during a faith transition. One is the individual journey, one is the group journey. So the individual journey feels like it wants to individuate, and that feels very healthy. So it's hard sometimes to wait and pace for a spouse that you feel is lagging or holding you back or being controlling.
Natasha Helfer [00:36:07] These are all words that I hear a lot from folks because there's that frustration of what I need versus what we need, and there's that constant wrestle.
John Dehlin [00:36:16] Yeah, yeah. And I'll just add that, you know, we, Natasha, you and I and Margi, did the podcast the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. There should almost be a series called the Gift of the Mixed Faith Marriage, because there's a real opportunity here for maturity, because no adult should be bound by the chains of, like, fear of how their parents or their siblings or their community are gonna react to their reality.
John Dehlin [00:36:50] And so there's a real liberation that can come from saying, I'm just gonna be me and be authentic and be real, you know, to the extent that it's safe to do so and just to stand in your reality and in your truth. And I can definitely guarantee you the opposite of constantly hiding and suppressing and worrying about people finding out what's really going on in your life. I guarantee you that is not good for your physical health, your mental health, or your marriage. And so learning to sort of individuate and differentiate from your parents, from your children, from your community, and learning to stand in your truth becomes healthy for everyone in the end.
John Dehlin [00:37:35] And it takes away the shame that the transitioning member of the dyad feels. Because nobody wants to feel like a disappointment. Nobody wants to feel like a dirty little secret or a shameful part of the relationship. And that's when I've seen the transitioning member of a marriage get really angry and really resentful. It's when they have to press down and hide who they are. That just causes Wreaks havoc in my view.
Natasha Helfer [00:38:06] And it can happen on both sides of that, depending on who the group is that you are hanging out with. We talk about this a lot in the workshop. Who has privilege in the moment? So if you're hanging out with, for example, I had a couple where the person who was transitioning was a convert to the church. Well, now they were transitioning out. So going back to their family, that was kind of a celebration. Well, now the believing spouse in that family system was feeling very left out, very disrespected. You know, a lot of those same things that you said. So how do you make space for who's feeling disrespect when and in which spaces?
Allan Mount [00:38:42] Yeah, that we've been really, really lucky. I'll use even the word privileged because of just the public nature of our mixed faith marriage. We've been in situations where I'm in sacrament meeting and most non believers or transitioning believers can, excuse me, can relate to that. Where you're in everyone else is a believer setting. Well, Kattie has come and spoke at Thrive and Kattie has come and I mean Kattie is sitting right now.
John Dehlin [00:39:08] For those who don't know, it's an ex Mormon conference basically.
Allan Mount [00:39:12] Right. I mean we've, we've done date nights with those that are only non believing and they're drinking and were you about
John Dehlin [00:39:20] to say that Kattie's come on Mormon Voldemort's podcast?
Allan Mount [00:39:24] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:39:24] Is that what you're about to say?
Natasha Helfer [00:39:25] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:39:26] You can't say. That's a really, that's a really big thing you've done.
Kattie Mount [00:39:30] You're not Lord Voldemort once you get to know him.
Allan Mount [00:39:36] So your nose isn't quite as disgusting as Voldemort.
John Dehlin [00:39:39] I have a nose. I have a nose. Unlike Voldemort. Okay, keep going.
Allan Mount [00:39:43] No, I mean, I was going to say all of this leads to the next point, if you want to put the next point on it.
Mistake Three: Hiding Behavioral Changes
John Dehlin [00:39:48] Yeah, the next point is hiding behavioral changes, which is something I alluded to. And it's normal. Go ahead and talk about. That's right back in the story. Let's jump back to the story.
Allan Mount [00:39:58] Yeah. So in the story for us, this is in fall of 2017. I, things were hitting ahead. I hadn't believed for probably three, four months. And I was feeling, as many of us do as we're transitioning out, a big need to make some changes.
Allan Mount [00:40:16] And the difficulty is when you do have that fear that we've talked about, sometimes the fear can drive you to not being forthcoming with Changes. We hadn't built the communication skills yet. We haven't flexed that muscle enough in our mixed faith marriage to sit down and negotiate the tenders, as we call it, as Natasha so eloquently says, or to go through all the tools that you need in order to properly get to a space where I can make a change. And maybe she's not fully comfortable with it, but we're gonna try it out. We just didn't know that. And so for me, very early on, the first big behavioral change I made, I just did behind her back and tried to hide it.
Allan Mount [00:41:07] And here's the comical part of it. If it was like, I'm gonna drink coffee now, maybe I could have hid that. You know, you chew a piece of gum, you go to Starbucks or whatever it is Dutch bros now. No, but it wasn't coffee. Even alcohol. You could go and hide alcohol. You're on a work trip and so you'd take a drink or something. You could hide that. No, me, I'm going to remove my garments thinking that for more than 24 hours my wife is not going to figure it out. We sleep in the same bed. How long, how long did you think it. It took to, like, realize that that was going on?
John Dehlin [00:41:40] Wait, are you saying you thought she wasn't going to notice?
Allan Mount [00:41:43] I just. I don't think I was thinking rationally. I just thought, I cannot have this conversation.
Kattie Mount [00:41:47] I think you could say that for a lot of things, but I was not thinking rationally.
Allan Mount [00:41:52] That could be the title of this episode, how to not think rationally. But in this case, were you just
John Dehlin [00:41:57] feeling so angry you couldn't wear them anymore?
Allan Mount [00:41:59] I just knew I could not wear them anymore. And I knew also at the same time, I didn't know how to express that to her. So rather it was just like, I'm gonna avoid it. And I think deep down I knew that taking them off, she was going to notice and it was gonna come to a head in a very short period of time.
John Dehlin [00:42:18] And Kattie, what was that like for you to just like, without even having a conversation, just to experience that?
Kattie Mount [00:42:24] I mean, it was a second betrayal or a third.
John Dehlin [00:42:27] I think we're three of these.
Allan Mount [00:42:29] Are we stacking them up?
Kattie Mount [00:42:30] It was just. It just. It kept adding to the list of things that he wasn't up front. And actually it kind of felt like a slap in the face because he didn't have enough. I know he was trying to protect me, but he also didn't have, like, enough faith in me that I would act differently. Or I would try to be more understanding. And so he. It's like he didn't even give me the chance to be able to come to it and to talk about it and talk it through. And I felt hurtful that I wasn't given the chance or opportunity to do so.
John Dehlin [00:43:09] Yeah.
Allan Mount [00:43:10] And so everyone hears me say that. I don't take this as a crap on Allen moment. Like, what a stupid decision and mistake it's.
John Dehlin [00:43:20] The whole point of this podcast is mistakes you made.
Allan Mount [00:43:22] Yeah, no, I know. No, no, no. And that's the point where it's understandable why you wouldn't want to say, I'm going to take my garments off now, or it's understandable why you would want to avoid that difficult, uncomfortable conversation. It makes it worse by not. And I think one of the biggest lessons that Natasha, you've helped teach us is it's better. And please qualify if there's. Obviously, abuse is a whole different topic, but in most cases, it's better to tell them that you're going to do it in spite of their feelings than to just hide it and lie. Can you talk a little, A little bit about that in general?
Natasha Helfer [00:44:02] Yeah. I mean, obviously there are marriages where there's secrecy due to safety. We're not on that topic tonight, but I think it is important to.
John Dehlin [00:44:10] Well, I think we should at least broach it because. Just because I think. Kattie, I love. I love the point you made that it. If a spouse hides something from you, it's basically saying, I don't trust you with the information, which is kind of insulting. On the other hand, I wasn't kidding. And Natasha, I'm sure you can validate this, that there's people who, in the very same scenario, might pack up their bags and leave the moment they see. And Kattie and Allan, you guys have counseled a lot of people. Am I exaggerating that? That can be a spousal reaction to something like finding out that they had their first drink of alcohol or they took off their garments or stopped paying tithing without, you know, telling the spouse. Is that. Am I exaggerating?
Kattie Mount [00:44:51] No. I mean, that has absolutely happened with couples we've talked to. And I think, though, you can probably gauge from your spouse where they're going to fall. And that's not always the truth. But I feel like if there's a safety concern, if there's been any type of abuse, and Natasha should speak to this, you can see that that's more likely to go that way. That wasn't the case. That was not the case with me and Ellen. It was. We had a loving relationship and he just didn't tell me. But I feel like there are other relationships. It has nothing to do with mixed faith that either way, any information is going to set someone off.
John Dehlin [00:45:38] I'm sorry, Natasha. When you said safety, I wasn't going all the way there to like, physical.
Allan Mount [00:45:43] Yeah.
Natasha Helfer [00:45:44] To domestic violence.
John Dehlin [00:45:45] Okay, sorry.
Natasha Helfer [00:45:45] Yeah, no, that's fine.
John Dehlin [00:45:46] That's probably another podcast. But I mean, safety in terms of like, the marriage potentially could be over.
Natasha Helfer [00:45:52] Yes. Right. I think that's why people are hiding things. I mean, that's the ultimate self protection is I don't want you to leave me or to be upset with me. The protection isn't always about protecting you. It's like I want to self protect as well.
Natasha Helfer [00:46:08] And when you have kids involved and you have finances involved and all the many complexities of a marriage. Yeah. There's a lot at stake. There's a lot at stake. And as you were talking about garments and alcohol and coffee, this is where we get into that same wrestle between, hey, wait a minute. Aren't I a grown individual? Aren't I a grownup? Can't I decide what types of clothing I put on my body? Can't I decide whether or not I drink a beverage?
Natasha Helfer [00:46:36] And so now the person who's transitioning is feeling kind of in the sense that. Well, but if I have to check in with my partner, if I have to ask for permission from my partner, it starts feeling like an adolescent type parent relationship. And that becomes also another tension that's brewing. Right.
John Dehlin [00:46:55] It's an intimacy killer as well.
Natasha Helfer [00:46:56] It is an intimacy killer.
John Dehlin [00:46:57] I don't mean just sex. I mean psychological, emotional.
Natasha Helfer [00:47:00] Yeah. So it's this wrestle of where do I begin and end as an individual, and then where do we begin and end as a relationship and where do we have to negotiate? And I think that typically at the beginning, this is fraught with what I like to say, pendulum swings. Right. Because we're very used to conforming. We're very used to checking in with each other about everything. Now all of a sudden, we're going through a transition where both people are feeling like, wait a minute, just because you feel this way doesn't mean I want to feel this way. So now we're pendulum swinging to the other side of individualism. And that can cause a lot of havoc for any relationship that is going to require negotiation, no matter what kind of marriage you're in. But it's hard to keep that in mind when you're going through these very tumultuous emotional experiences and feelings.
John Dehlin [00:47:50] If I could add just one more thing to this topic of hiding, behavioral change, there's one other risk that I don't think we've touched on yet. When you start the practice of hiding from your spouse and lying to your spouse, think of it as like two ships that are starting to navigate in different directions. You can think, oh, it's just a glass of beer when I'm on the road.
John Dehlin [00:48:16] Oh, it's just a little Facebook exchange with a high school friend who is understanding me more, who I used to be attracted to a long time ago. It's just, you know, it's just taking off my garments when I'm on the road. She'll never know. Once you start getting comfortable with hiding, comfortable with lying, and then you add six months and a year, and a year and a half and two years, what you can find is that you, number one, grow apart and those betrayals or those eventual betrayals that spouse is going to feel start really piling up. And you think when you're, when you're deceiving or hiding at the beginning, when you think that you're actually protecting and saving the marriage, sometimes what you're doing by lighting and hiding is guaranteeing its eventual destruction.
John Dehlin [00:49:10] So don't fool yourself that you're doing it to save the marriage. Because what you're most likely doing is guaranteeing. It's not necessarily, but you risk destroying it by just compounded infidelities. And when I say infidelities, I don't just mean sleeping with somebody else. I mean all the different ways we can lie.
Mistake Four: Making Unilateral Decisions
Natasha Helfer [00:49:34] So anyway, yeah, we talk about this, like making unilateral decisions.
John Dehlin [00:49:38] Right.
Natasha Helfer [00:49:38] In the workshop. And kind of like, Kattie, you were just saying, it leaves the person feeling like, okay, decisions are being made that affect my life without me even being in the room to help with those decisions. And that can feel very off putting. So on the one hand, one person might feel controlled, like, well, you don't have a right. I get to do these things on my own. On the other hand, the other person's saying, but this affects me too. And I'm not even in the room to discuss the negotiation. So it really does require this kind of more mature stepping in. And it's not about permission. It's about conversation, dialogue and agreements.
Allan Mount [00:50:13] Yeah. And it wasn't long after that initial conversation, or, excuse me, that initial situation where I just took off the garment that we did have a conversation that was very direct and we asked the question of what are the top things that you are afraid of? What changes are you most afraid of? And I did not know the answer to that question when I asked it. And when Kattie responded, those things were not at the top of my list that I was really aching to change or go and participate in. And so I told her, I felt like I can look at you in the eye, Kattie, and say, that's not gonna happen. And when I feel differently, I will talk to you about it. And did that help you feel better about those two things in the moment? That's a very leading question. But how did that conversation go for you?
Kattie Mount [00:51:05] It helps to just talk about the scary things that are in your mind that you aren't used to talking about. And so many people just avoid the situation, avoid the conversation at every turn, which is 100% what I did. And so Allan is a great communicator. And so that when he asked me that question and I was able to be truthful about it, it felt really good just to get it out into the open and talk about it. And then really, I think that it led to, you know, there was no more fear around it. There was no judgment around it. And it led to more understanding down the road when I was ready to talk about it, when I was ready to broach the subject and perhaps, like, consider one of them was alcohol.
Kattie Mount [00:51:58] Consider Allan drinking alcohol. And that was a process. But you can't go through the process if you haven't said it out loud to your partner. And that was key.
John Dehlin [00:52:11] Beautiful. Okay, the next point. Point number four that we have. This is Kattie's point. One of the mistakes that Kattie made that she feels like could have hurt their marriage was playing the victim. So, Kattie, take us back to your story and how that emerged.
Mistake Five: Playing the Victim
Kattie Mount [00:52:27] Right. So, okay. I always joke that Allan and I are so good at this because we made so many mistakes. And you'll see 10 of them today. And this is one of them is that because I was, I felt, the innocent bystander of Allan's faith change. I felt like I was the victim in all this. I absolutely felt sorry for myself. And I did have a few people that qualified it by saying, how are you dealing with this? You must be so sad. Which actually wasn't helpful. Right.
John Dehlin [00:53:02] This must be so hard for you.
Kattie Mount [00:53:04] This must be so hard for you. What are you going to do? Do you think you'll stay with him? All of this kind of kept me in this victim mentality that everything that was happening was being done to Me rather than.
Kattie Mount [00:53:18] This is a change in the game. I'm being thrown a fastball or a ball I've never seen before. And now what do we do with it? Because my plan A is out the window. Like, what is plan B? What does that even look like? And it really took me a while to figure out that my husband was in so much pain. I didn't want to recognize his pain. I thought I was the only one suffering, and I stayed in that. And because of that, Allan did whatever he could in order to be gentle with me, including wearing the garments for six more months than he wanted to, or waiting to have his first cup of coffee outside of the home, those types of things.
Kattie Mount [00:54:11] He was very patient with me, like you said. But I was in that victim mentality for a little while. And then I realized that I think it was someone in his family that mentioned to me how difficult this might be for him.
Kattie Mount [00:54:25] And it all of a sudden dawned on me, oh, my gosh, he must be so sad. And that's something I had not considered and nor did I want to qualify, because I still felt like everything was his fault, not mine.
Kattie Mount [00:54:41] But once we got to the place where I could ask him, start to ask him questions without being really defensive, that's when. And that's when I could kind of piece things together. He had been having panic attacks and all these things, and suddenly he wasn't having them. And I put two and two together, and I thought, oh, gosh, all these things he's been holding onto are now coming out, and he's not going to have a panic attack because he's speaking his truth. So there was a lot involved with that. But I think that there is a place to be sad and to grieve the life that you thought you would have.
Kattie Mount [00:55:24] That's absolutely part of the process. But you can't stay in the victim mentality because you never grow back together. You're constantly putting yourself above your spouse.
Allan Mount [00:55:39] We had this beautiful moment when you made that realization that you were playing the victim and you wanted that to change you.
John Dehlin [00:55:47] Could you tell she was playing a victim, Matt, or was that trans.
Allan Mount [00:55:51] I just felt invisible to you. It just. It just. I was feeling the. The pain and trauma of a faith crisis. And on top of that was stacked all of the negative things that this was doing to Kattie.
John Dehlin [00:56:06] But I was just guessing. A lot of those conversations Kattie was having was with people while you weren't around. But did it still come across to you, maybe indirectly?
Allan Mount [00:56:14] I did not take. I remember being frustrated that my own pain wasn't being recognized. But I feel like emotionally I understood why she was feeling pain. The game was being changed. And so it was a little bit of a.
John Dehlin [00:56:31] You broke the contract by losing your faith.
Allan Mount [00:56:33] Right. Even though I would argue. And I know this is not what you're saying, John, but I would argue that this is something that happened me to. To me. I wasn't looking for this. It just. This happened. Right?
John Dehlin [00:56:41] Yeah, but from her perspective.
Allan Mount [00:56:43] Correct, correct. There was this conversation. It was. I remember exactly. It was in my office in our last home, where she came into the office and we were chatting about a couple things, and she started crying and said, I am so sorry you had to go through this alone. And I could tell that she got it. And when someone could. When someone that you love so much can say those words and you know they don't agree with you, do you know that they did not come to the same conclusion, but they are still hurting for you? I mean, there is. That is one of the top five healing moments of our entire marriage.
Allan Mount [00:57:21] And in that moment, I mean, there was just another reassurance of we're gonna. This is gonna work like we are. We are making this work because we are standing up for each other, especially because we're different. And I. Nope. Her tears fell first, so I lose.
Kattie Mount [00:57:39] There's a reason why John put this box in front of me, not in front of either of you.
Allan Mount [00:57:44] The Kleenex box.
Kattie Mount [00:57:45] Yeah, that's right.
Allan Mount [00:57:46] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:57:47] What are you feeling, Kattie?
Kattie Mount [00:57:48] Oh, no. I'm glad that you reminded me of that moment because I kind of had forgotten that. But I think I was speaking, you know, about the people that had supported him as well, and there was a community that supported him. And I was really grateful for that. And I was really grateful that I had that sort of light bulb moment because then we could just move on and I could become a better person.
John Dehlin [00:58:15] Beautiful. Yeah. It's tough because pain and there's a grief. You know, many say losing your faith and experiencing a spouse losing their faith is like a death. And so there's going to be grief. And getting stuck in victimhood is not your most empowered state. Natasha, this is a delicate thing to talk about. Do you have anything you want to add?
Natasha Helfer [00:58:45] I appreciate everything you've both said. I guess I wrestle a little bit when Kattie says, you know, I played the victim. I feel like this is really a systemic issue.
John Dehlin [00:58:55] Right?
Natasha Helfer [00:58:55] This is a systemic. Like, why did people come to you and say, you know, are you going to leave him or you must be so sad. Well, because that's how we talk about faith transitions within the community. Testimony is not really seen as something that just happens or doesn't happen. It is seen as a choice.
Natasha Helfer [00:59:17] And so a lot of times, if somebody is transitioning away from the faith, it's very hard for believers to not see that as a purposeful choice. And therefore it does become personal. You must be doing this to me. Why would you do this? Why can't you change this? And so I think one of the things that you and I, John, have really tried to educate the public about is that conversions, whether to a religion or from a religion, are very like.
Natasha Helfer [00:59:43] Like individual kind of subconscious, almost processes. They're not necessarily choices. Right. You have feelings, you have thoughts, you interpret them a certain way. They're very complex things. And so I don't think somebody said, you know, I chose to believe in Mormonism today.
Natasha Helfer [01:00:03] No, they're like, the missionaries open the door. Or I opened the door to the missionaries and I had feelings and they came and taught me. And over time, you know, it's a process, and it's not something you just decided to do in one moment. And faith transitioning is similar to that. So I think that we do a poor job as a community helping people understand how best to respond and to not take it personally. Kattie. Right. And so I appreciate you counting this a mistake because you shifted. It helped you shift the way you were approaching your husband. At the same time, I wouldn't have expected really much different because that's the system that taught you how to respond to a faith transition.
John Dehlin [01:00:42] Yeah. Love it. Beautiful. I want to highlight one comment from Catherine class. She writes, would you say playing the victim over feeling the victim? I would. From my experience, feeling the victim is truer. Playing sounds like she was using manipulation to get you to bow to her wishes. So that's a really good.
Kattie Mount [01:01:03] That's a good way to differentiate the two. Yeah, I definitely, like, I was feeling like the victim. I don't know. Allan could probably answer if he felt manipulated.
Allan Mount [01:01:15] Nothing jumps out. Nothing jumps out.
Natasha Helfer [01:01:17] I think people do feel manipulated, though, a lot of times, just because they're having to wrestle with their spouse's feelings that are uncomfortable. So it's like, well, if you show up in this way, then it feels like I need to do something about it and change. And so that can feel manipulative, which is a whole nother thing that we discusses. How do we define these terms and what do they actually mean? And we can have conflictual difficult feelings without necessarily meaning that somebody's trying to be manipulative. So that's hard too.
John Dehlin [01:01:51] I want to ask everyone who's viewing now or in the future to just take a moment, go to the Marriage on the Tightrope YouTube channel and subscribe to their channel. We want to get them to a thousand and then 10,400 subscribers subscribers. So please take the time to do that and also go to their website. The link is in the description. And please sign up to become a monthly donor to the marriage on a Tightrope podcast because these two humans are saving marriages not just within Mormonism, but within broader culture and other high demand religions. And also please sign up for their workshop on a tightrope that Natasha leads with them and is starting soon. Okay, let's go ahead and jump to point number five. Treating this is Allan's point. Allan's no, no treating church attendance as an either or. So take us back to the story, Allan.
Mistake Six: Treating Church Attendance as Either-Or
Allan Mount [01:02:49] Yeah, this, this really could be zoomed out of just treating the church in general as an either or as a binary. So as an econ major turned sales executive, I know a lot about psychology. Our brains don't like to think outside of binary. We like to think this or that. I need to make a choice, true or false, etc.
Natasha Helfer [01:03:09] Right.
Allan Mount [01:03:10] So a lot of times in a mixed faith marriage, it can feel like you're either choosing the church or you're choosing me. There is no in between. Or you are choosing to. You're choosing not the church or you're choosing me. And in this, in this story, we were in our backyard talking and I was getting fired up about. We were Saturday, we were talking about what is our Sunday going to look like. And this is a very common conversation, at least it should be a common conversation in a mixed faith marriage of what does our Sunday look like now? And we were deciding what is going to happen the next day.
Allan Mount [01:03:43] And in this conversation I was getting frustrated because first of all, I didn't want to go to church anymore. And that's a separate topic. Like you can choose not to go to church and your wife goes to church or your husband goes to church, et cetera. Backwards.
Allan Mount [01:03:58] In this conversation it was, I made the point to Kattie of fallaciously. I said, why do we have to go to church? It's always church. Why can't we go on a hike? Why can't we go to a park? Why can't we go to the farmer's market? Like, why does it have to be church? And her Response was very simple. It was, church is at 9.
Allan Mount [01:04:21] Can't we do both? Can't I still go? Even if I didn't go, can't Kattie still go to church? And then afterwards we go to the farmer's market or we go on a hike to Donut Falls or whatever it may be. And for whatever reason, we had had this conversation a number of times, but in that moment, it kind of struck me of, I was thinking very binarily, is that that's a word we're going with that.
Natasha Helfer [01:04:47] If not, we're making it huzzah.
Allan Mount [01:04:49] So I was thinking very binarily, once
John Dehlin [01:04:52] you, once your faith changed about Mormonism, you, I guess you can't ever go to church again.
Allan Mount [01:04:57] Right. Well, and in the marriage, it was, we are either going to go to church or we are not going to go to church. There was no.
John Dehlin [01:05:04] As a whole family.
Allan Mount [01:05:05] Yeah. It was either my activities or Kattie's activities. It wasn't even in my head of the solution could be, why don't we do both of those things and if my decision is I'm not going to go with you, and then our family activity after church is going to be this. It just didn't cross my mind that way. So in general, we, we highly recommend, because of the mistakes that we have made, to not make it a binary choice when you are, when you.
John Dehlin [01:05:32] Sorry, Sabbaths. Yes.
Allan Mount [01:05:34] But really, any decision, it, you know, it, it doesn't have to be coffee or no coffee.
John Dehlin [01:05:39] It can be tithing or no tithing.
Allan Mount [01:05:41] Tithing or no tithing. It can be a 5%, 5%. It can be a. Right now with, I'm not comfortable, terribly comfortable having coffee in the home. So can we start with you drinking coffee? And that can be some of the negotiation. It is very easy to get into a game of all or nothing where it doesn't have to go there.
John Dehlin [01:05:58] Well, okay, so there's the point about church attendance and then there's the meta point about developing flexibility really quickly, Kattie, from your perspective, I know when I was raised Mormon, you go to church every Sunday for. In my case it was all three hours. It's now been reduced to two. But like, the option of like taking a Sunday off and going to Donut Falls wasn't even on the table in my orthodox mindset. So what was it like for you when this question of church attendance was raised?
Kattie Mount [01:06:28] Right. I had to ease into it for a long time. It was, we're all going to church. And then Ellen stopped going to church with us for about nine Months. And that was a challenge because I had four little kids with me. And I remember thinking that if he could be flexible with coming on some Sundays with me, I could be flexible in doing a family activity that I wouldn't normally do on a Sunday. So it did take time. And I want to give people, like, a thought that, you know, you should be changing your mind over time. You should not be stuck in one
John Dehlin [01:07:05] frame of mind, just in life overall.
Kattie Mount [01:07:07] In life overall. But in your situation with mixed faith, so many. So many believers are worried about the slippery slope that they will take with their spouse if they decide to change their mind.
John Dehlin [01:07:21] That if we all stop going to church, then. Or if my spouse stops going to church, they're gonna become a drug addict.
Kattie Mount [01:07:26] And if I stop going to church, what will that say about me?
John Dehlin [01:07:29] Or sometimes don't go.
Kattie Mount [01:07:31] Right. Exactly. And really, that's not quite right. What it really is is that you're reevaluating and renegotiating what is important to you and your family. And that's gonna look different today and it'll look different in a year and tomorrow. And it's okay if you change your mind. It's okay if you decide, I'm not going this week, but. Oh, the week after. Yeah, let's all go. I just. I think that, like Allan said, it's not black and white. Also, allow yourself to. Allow yourself growth. Allow yourself to make a decision when it comes, not worry about the decisions in the future because you're just doing yourself harm.
John Dehlin [01:08:14] Yeah. One of the things I know, because Allan and I work out two or three times a week.
Allan Mount [01:08:19] Gets swole.
John Dehlin [01:08:20] Yeah. Is that Allan still attends church with you even six or seven years after his initial faith crisis. I'm reminded of a story of my brother who's in a mixed faith marriage. And after he really processed things, was able to get past the trauma and the disappointment and everything, and it wasn't a big deal. He was able to go to church with his wife, you know, periodically. And he told me the story once of him at church, sitting next to her on the pew, or maybe it was in Sunday school, and he may have even been looking at his phone. But he told me this really sweet story about his wife Lonnie, looking over to him and just smiling and saying, you love me.
John Dehlin [01:09:03] And what she meant was, you love me enough to come to church and sit with me because, you know, it's not always fun for me to be alone. And I know this is a sacrifice for you and it really means a lot to me that you do that sometimes. Can you relate to that, Kattie?
Kattie Mount [01:09:19] Yeah, absolutely. In fact, now. Well, when Allan comes with me, he's kind of just, I would say it's not his community, it's not his group of people. And so I think that he is more concerned about how I'm taking the information in and what people are saying more than he is. I used to be like, oh, I'm so sorry. They're playing Follow the Prophet to sing. And Allan's like, no, it's fine. And now he's looking to me and saying, like, are you okay? Because I'm in a place where I'm trying to make things work with a nuanced view. And it does feel great that he's there, and it does feel like he's there for me because he really cares about me. And not every situation is like that and he doesn't come every time. But I think we have a good thing going right now.
John Dehlin [01:10:11] I love it. Anything you want to add, Natasha?
Natasha Helfer [01:10:14] Yeah. I agree that flexibility is a huge, huge component of really making any relationship work. And I think in specifics, I think it can feel sometimes to the believer with the slippery slope idea that now I'm having to compromise on everything, right? Like, everything that's changing is a compromise for me. And I think it's important to remember that for a faith transitioner, if they were single, let's say if they were single, they'd be doing things very differently. So now, really, everything that they're still kind of doing from an LDS framework is also a compromise. And that's hard to remember. It's hard to remember that. And when you were talking that it's not just about going to church.
Natasha Helfer [01:10:55] I've had a lot of people, for example, say, how can my partner stay attached to a church that has hurt me so much? Right? So maybe I'm a woman, or maybe I'm bisexual, or maybe I'm just super angry that the church. That I feel like the church has betrayed me or lied to me. How can you, as my spouse, who's supposed to be my biggest ally, so stay connected with an entity that has either abused me or hurt me or lied to me? And that's very complicated, right, because you're both having two different relationships with the church. And so to expect this person to basically cancel the church because you were hurt by it is, in a way, almost like the same.
Natasha Helfer [01:11:39] Like a believer saying, well, I expect you to stay with the church because it's helpful to me. So you have to figure out a way to make space for both of you to have your own individual relationship with the church.
John Dehlin [01:11:50] Yeah, yeah. And I remember when Margi and I were working through things, one week she'd take the kids to church. One week I'd take the kids to church. One week none of us would go. And one week, all of us would go. And we just developed a lot of flexibility. And that was true about a lot of different things. So that's a great point. Be flexible, and you can have a lot of fun in the process. All right, let's jump to the next point, which is point number six. This is Kattie's point, not taking the lead with family and friends on where she stood on support in her marriage. All right, Kattie takes to the story.
Mistake Seven: Avoiding Difficult Conversations
Kattie Mount [01:12:29] Okay, this is for all of you who avoid difficult conversations. That is me. I do not. I. Okay, I'm gonna say that it's. I don't feel like it's completely my fault, but I think in the church, a lot of times we avoid being uncomfortable, and we don't want to sit in other people's sadness. And so what do we do? We offer sugar that was offered in my home, like, sugar, as a way to placate feelings. And so I really just avoid conversations.
Allan Mount [01:13:06] And.
Kattie Mount [01:13:06] And really, what happened is Allan, when he told my family about the changes happening, he did so without me because I was uncomfortable. I didn't want to sit next to him and have to tell every single person in my family what was happening. Part of it, it was because I still felt a lot of hurt. Part of it was I didn't feel like it was mine to tell. And part of it was that I didn't want.
Kattie Mount [01:13:35] I didn't want to be uncomfortable in a situation like that. And so because of that, I think that it left a lot of family members wondering where I stood. And I got the attention anyway, Right? Like, they wanted to talk to me. They wanted to text me and call me and see how I was doing because they were concerned that I hadn't been there. And I told them, oh, I'm fine. Because that's what I am taught to do, is just to say, oh, I'm fine. Everything's okay.
Kattie Mount [01:14:08] When, of course, I had strong feelings and I was sad about it. But at that point, Allan and I had decided that we were going to stay together. By the time we had told people, we decided, we're going to stay married. We're going to work through this. And I'm afraid that it backfired because I didn't take the role of strong, supporting wife and someone that said outright, I want to make things work. I really love Allan. And this is just. This is just something that we're gonna try and talk through and go to therapy with and everything. And because I didn't do that, it left a lot of questions in the air.
Kattie Mount [01:14:54] And I think that it probably hurt relationships. And so where I had the place of privilege in my family, I had a difficult time sort of supporting Allan in his new role, which was someone who had left the church. And that's really hard in a very believing family where everyone's sealed together and, you know, you're doing family group date nights to the temple. That's a very difficult thing to be the one person who changes the dynamic. And it took me a little while to come back and support him in that way.
John Dehlin [01:15:36] What was it like for you, Allan?
Allan Mount [01:15:37] It was isolating. It was tough. It was really hard feeling. I mean, some of those conversations were rough. Really, really difficult, where you feel like you're on an island, you feel like you're talking to not your own blood, you're talking to your wife's blood, and she's not there to back you up.
Allan Mount [01:16:01] That was tough. We did feel it was time to tell them. We kind of felt like we were in a place where we needed to let them in because it had been eight or nine months and we hadn't talked to him about it.
Allan Mount [01:16:17] So the timing of it was right. We just. We did not. We couldn't foresee the ramifications of the relationship and how it would. I didn't know how it would make me feel in the coming months of not just the gap between me and my in laws just kind of did this. And maybe with Kattie by my side, it would have been smaller gap. I don't think it would have been perfect. Sometimes the. It's a very common saying of there's no good way to tell bad news.
Allan Mount [01:16:44] And it probably would have been difficult regardless, but without Kattie, it definitely was a challenge. And the unfortunate thing is that not all, but there's still a couple of relationships that are still on the mend. And these were conversations that happened in January of 2018. So this was five and a half years ago, and we're still kind of dealing with that. So this is one of the biggest reasons why we spend a whole week talking about strategies to talk to family in our workshop, because it can make a big. A big difference. My family's all out east, and Kattie's family is all here in Utah.
Allan Mount [01:17:18] So it's her family that, that we're needing to, to really strategize in how we're talking about all of these things. And five and a half years later, a whole lot of positive change and growth has happened in those relationships. But it took a lot longer to get there than it should have.
John Dehlin [01:17:36] Thank you to you both for your vulnerability. Natasha, I'm imagining, you know, if you, if all of your, if your parents and siblings are all and grandparents are all orthodox believers in a high demand religion and your spouse no longer believes, on the one hand, it's got to be super embarrassing and shameful to want to go to them and say I love my spouse and I support them and they're great and I our marriage comes first. That's not your initial instinct or reaction, but I imagine number one, number two is if you're acting like you're embarrassed and ashamed of your spouse, that's got to be toxic for the marriage. And I imagine it's very affirming. And like Allan and Kattie have shared, it can be really strengthening to a marriage to see the believing spouse become the strongest advocate for the transitioning spouse. What's your experience been?
Natasha Helfer [01:18:35] Yeah, this is hard because like Kattie was saying, especially when it's first happening and you are sad and you're confused and you're struggling. Many of us, who do we go to, we go to our extended family, you know, our parents, our siblings, our cousins, our best people. And we're talking to them about this problem that our spouse is creating. And it's very normal in that kind of family system for the family to choose their person, their blood. And so you see all this concern from the believing family, right? Like the transitioner is hurting our baby, it's hurting our child, it's hurt, you know, they're hurting, they're hurting our grandbabies, right?
Natasha Helfer [01:19:19] So there's all this tension that's happening and at first the believer does need that support, right? And that kind of gathering in this is also very common with infidelity, right. If you find out that your spouse has been sexually unfaithful to you, you oftentimes go to your sister, your mom, your dad, you know, talk about that. The problem then is that eventually when that wound is starting to get healed, if it's going to heal, you're going to go back to your spouse, right? You're going to go back to your spouse and repair that and strengthen that relationship. But now these extended family members, they're not staying married to that spouse.
Natasha Helfer [01:19:59] They're still sad or grumpy or confused themselves about why you're advocating for somebody who has hurt you. Right. And so these are very challenging family dynamics. And it is important to eventually get to the place where you can say, hey, mom and dad, we are working on this. I am choosing my partner. You know, Allan's a great husband. He's a great father. I know that there's aspects of this that you don't understand, but right now I need your support for my marriage, and I need you to treat my husband with respect. And it's very important. I always say it's always the responsibility of the biological or adopted child of that family to advocate with their own family.
Natasha Helfer [01:20:41] It is not like Allan's job to advocate for himself within Kattie's family. It's Kattie's job, just like it's Allen's job to advocate in his family for Kattie. Right. So we have to do that work within our own family system and set those boundaries, which can be hard to do.
John Dehlin [01:20:56] That's true in all marriages, not just mixed faith.
Natasha Helfer [01:20:58] That's right, exactly.
John Dehlin [01:20:59] In fact, I think so many of the lessons that people would get from marriage on a tightrope podcast and from the workshop on a tightrope. And Natasha, when we've done retreats together, so many things that are essential for a mixed faith marriage are just good lessons for all marriages.
Natasha Helfer [01:21:15] And we've actually had, we've actually had people attend who were in a mixed faith.
Allan Mount [01:21:19] Flourish.
John Dehlin [01:21:19] Yes, that is awesome.
Natasha Helfer [01:21:23] But they're like, we need, we need help for our marriage. That's why I actually do a support group for post Mormon marriages. Because these are skills that a lot of us were just not taught about marriage, about relationship. But nothing like a mixed faith marriage to reveal a lot.
Allan Mount [01:21:37] Right?
John Dehlin [01:21:38] Yeah. Beautiful. Okay. And Natasha, what's the website again for if someone wants to see you as a therapist or check out some of your workshops?
Natasha Helfer [01:21:48] Yeah. Symmetrypath.com okay, we'll talk about that later.
John Dehlin [01:21:51] I just want to throw that in. Yeah. Symmetrypath.com if you need a good therapist or to check out Natasha's online workshops. Okay, we're here on number seven. This is Allan's mocking beliefs is different than having an outlet. All right, you're laughing, Allan, Why are you laughing?
Mistake Eight: Mocking Your Spouse's Beliefs
Allan Mount [01:22:12] The largest fight in our almost 19 year marriage is on this topic.
John Dehlin [01:22:18] Okay, so why, why mock? Let's take, let's go back in the story. Why would you ever want to mock anything for those. Let's just say there's never Mormons. Half of the show of viewers have Never been Mormon. Take us back in the story.
Allan Mount [01:22:31] Yeah, I mean, this story. I think the term mocking is being used. Once you understand the context of the situation, you'll. You'll see what I mean.
John Dehlin [01:22:38] So Kattie's already pursing your lips. She's getting ready. Oh, boy.
Allan Mount [01:22:43] This is not my proudest moment. So we. 5 of the 10 of these are not my proudest moment. But in this one in particular, I was still attending church, but I no longer believed I was in a place where the podcast had started. So this was not. We had. Our dark year was 2017, when I was transitioning away and we were figuring it out. And then we started the podcast at the beginning of 2018. So the podcast had started. I was still attending church. I did go through a number of months and years not attending until now. I'm kind of wishy washy in that way.
Allan Mount [01:23:14] But at this time, I was still attending. And one of the things I wanted to do is help Kattie in her primary presidency, calling in any way that she needed, putting videos on thumb drives or printing this out or dressing up as Moses one time, things like that. And she needed a substitute teacher. And so I said, yeah, I'd be happy to. To sub. And she was sharing the lesson during sharing time, and it was about the word of wisdom.
Allan Mount [01:23:40] So she did a phenomenal job. In fact, she even went as far as knowing I was going to be there. She made the lesson more about treating your body right than it was don't do this and don't do that. It was very much. She could have sat in front of any body of people on earth. That's a stretch. But I'll be very grandiose about it just to make a point because it was just. It was a very, very good, like, treat yourself, your body is important type of thing instead of a checklist. Right. And then singing time came and one of the.
Kattie Mount [01:24:14] Which I have no control over because I am not the right leader.
Allan Mount [01:24:19] So I'm sitting there to paint a picture, second row in the front left of the room. Kattie's all the way in the back, kind of on her King Noah perch, looking over the entire primary, making sure everything is not King Noah. That's Benjamin. Benjamin, excuse me. Looking over the entire primary, making sure things are going right. So she's behind me, Right. That's important. Part of the story.
John Dehlin [01:24:40] Wasn't Rami Umptim, was it? Just kidding.
Allan Mount [01:24:42] No, it was not. No mounds were involved either. So we start to have singing time and follow the prophet comes on and I'M sitting there hearing Fall the Prophet. I'm hearing two of my own kids in the room singing Fall the Prophet. And I'm starting to feel some big emotions.
Allan Mount [01:25:00] And the way that I handled the situation was I could have done 50,000 other things, but I grabbed my phone and I started recording myself and my reaction to the rest of the room singing Follow the Prophet. So I kind of had the phone down in my lap like this and I'm looking at it and I'm scratching my head. And I think at the end I did some kind of gesture of just like, boom, like super not thinking at all. Well, who is behind me? Kattie. What can she see my phone? So she sees me making this video and I went and I posted it on one of the post Mormon Facebook groups that I was in.
Allan Mount [01:25:40] So in this moment of I had an outlet in some of these groups which is super, super important and I think is worth a few minutes of discussion to have those outlets. I kind of betrayed Kattie in that moment by making a snarky video and posting it to my groups after she had put together with me in mind a lesson that I wouldn't shirk at because she knew I was going to be in the room with the word of wisdom.
Allan Mount [01:26:09] So that's what I mean by mocking. I could have made a choice to not do that, to not make that video, not post it in real time while I'm sitting there next to these children in primary. And I completely understood the emotion behind the fight that ensued when we got home.
Allan Mount [01:26:31] I totally got it. I mishandled that situation. And so I think one thing I'll say, and then we can open it up right, Is having outlets that are going to be supportive, that are going to be Team Mount, that are going to be Team Delin, Team Helfer.
Allan Mount [01:26:47] You want to get into these situations that yes, you can. I need to vent about my frustrations with the church and sometimes I need to vent to other men who are in a mixed faith marriage. But those conversations can and should revolve wherever they go. They should not be pitting me against my partner.
Allan Mount [01:27:10] They always should be grounded in trying to improve our relationship or understand one another's relationships rather than just dogpiling it. I don't need someone to tell me how brainwashed his wife is and me vice versa. And like, that's where it gets really nasty. So finding an outlet that is not about mocking is super important.
John Dehlin [01:27:31] How was that experience for you? Or what would you add, Kattie?
Kattie Mount [01:27:34] Yeah, it's the first time I ever like, swore in front of my kids.
Allan Mount [01:27:40] Do you want to say what word it was?
Kattie Mount [01:27:42] I think I said the F word twice. I was, I think I threw. I threw an ironing board at you. Like, I pushed it towards him because he was trying to, like, come talk to me and I'm like, get away from me. And I.
John Dehlin [01:27:55] How does it feel to be mocked?
Kattie Mount [01:27:56] Yeah, it was so hurtful. And I thought. And I told him, you could have handled that a hundred other ways. Stand up and leave and say, I can't be here. That would have been infinitely better than what you did. And, you know, let me just say, though, like, Allan's humor is shock humor. He does it, like through media, through TikTok and everything.
John Dehlin [01:28:20] He's a literal comedian. Like, he's a professional comedian.
Kattie Mount [01:28:23] I mean, professional money exchanges hands.
Allan Mount [01:28:29] $1 exchanging hands means that it's professional.
John Dehlin [01:28:31] What I mean is he performs at a local comedy club regularly.
Kattie Mount [01:28:35] He done more than 10,000 hours of comedy. So, yes, he is in his right, a professional at comedy. But it's, I think, to understanding the way the styles that we have. My style is to be more diplomatic about things and to always take the high road. That's just my style. And Allan is hilarious and he finds a lot of healing, I think, through humor and through shock value. And so that was hard for me. And we both talked about it and obviously we worked through that, but then that kind of laid some good ground rules of moving forward. What's off limits? What's something. I don't want to feel betrayed. I don't want to feel. I want you to be genuine with me. And so, yeah, having those outlets are important.
John Dehlin [01:29:33] So, yeah. And. And Allan, for those of you who don't know, Allan has a really popular, from a post Mormon context, a really popular TikTok channel. And it's fun, but also I sense it's his outlet for exploring and expressing what he feels about the church. And I often watch his TikTok channel and think, how the crap does Kattie feel about him talking about being an atheist or challenging the atonement or, you know, whatever. And I think I know how you do.
Kattie Mount [01:30:09] It's pretty good. And that actually, I mean, I, I think, I'm not sure what number eight is, but I think it may lead into the number eight.
John Dehlin [01:30:19] Okay, well, I'll just say it's. I think I. I notice knowing you guys personally, how. How difficult or how, I don't want to say problematic, but just how you guys try and balance Allan trying to support you in your continued Attendance and the kids involvement. I mean, your kids went to BFY or whatever it's called now. Like your kids still attend, Allan helps attend. So on the one hand I'm like, go, Allan. But on the other hand, I know that that can build resentment in the transition or non believing spouse. So the flip side of that is as I'm Allan's friend as well, I'm like, dang, Allan, how do you deal with that? It feels like TikTok is his coping mechanism to have an outlet for the pain and the frustration. And that's just a really difficult thing. I just want to highlight that that's a really difficult thing that you two navigate.
Kattie Mount [01:31:15] Yeah. And I think that for any couple out there who has one spouse, that's. That feels like they would like to be more boisterous or just like to talk more about their journey. It can be social media, it could be Facebook, it could be anything there that can be hard for people. But I do think that there is a lot of value in it. And honestly, you know, Allan has found value in like the ex Mormon subreddits and now more in these Marco Polo groups. And I just feel like he needs that avenue. And it goes right to what we're going to talk about number eight, which is differentiation. Right.
Mistake Nine: Resisting Differentiation in Marriage
John Dehlin [01:31:55] All right, so number eight is Kattie's not wanting her spouse to differentiate.
Kattie Mount [01:32:02] Right. And I think that we can give Natasha most the time for this because she's the one that really helped us see why it's important to create some differentiation. And I, and I know that, gosh, Mormon couples like, you know, what is the bishop and the person who marries you? You know, what do they tell you? They tell you, oh, be one, you're one together. And I remember thinking, oh, everything that we do has to be together. Allan will fulfill every, every role that I need. He's going to fulfill that. Well, all of us know that that doesn't, that's not realistic. And we have to find ways to fulfill things that we.
Kattie Mount [01:32:46] So Allan loves lifting weights at the gym. And John and Nick Homer, they, they get to go with him. And I think in a faith transition, specifically, the pain is in noticing that you are no longer the same.
Kattie Mount [01:33:04] And you may have had different ideas within the church, but being one in, one out, you see that there's like miles between you. And I didn't think it was, I don't know what I thought, but I felt like, no, we got to stay together. We got to be the same person. We have to believe the same things. And I remember telling Ellen one night, I don't care if you don't believe in Joseph Smith, but you have to believe in Christ.
Kattie Mount [01:33:35] And he was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I believe in God, in Christ. And then later down the road is when he said, actually, I don't believe in God or a savior. And that was really hard. And so we're constantly doing these dances of differentiating between the needs and also the styles and the marriage.
John Dehlin [01:34:04] Yeah, yeah. Natasha, as a marriage and family therapist, how do you talk about the navigating the tension between needing to build your relationship on shared values, but also this important need to differentiate? Why differentiate? Like I. Isn't Mormonism oftentimes equated, like, healthy relationships in Mormonism, aren't they often equated with sameness?
Natasha Helfer [01:34:30] Yeah, yeah. But the reality is that none of us are the same. Right. The fact that you are not me. I mean, I know most of us would love to be married to ourselves, really, quite frankly, because then, you know, I don't have to deal with any difference. Right. And the difference is where it gets scary. I think we usually meet each other in sameness. Right. So when we're dating or getting to know somebody, even friends, you're usually getting. You're connecting because you're connecting on the ways that you are the same. But it is with time and with experience that now differences arise. Plus, we're changing constantly.
Natasha Helfer [01:35:05] We're constantly evolving. If you're going to spend 50, 60 years with somebody, which is pretty typical, if you get married in your 20s and we're dying in our 80s and 90s these days, that's 60 to 70 years, right. That you're developing yourself and your partner's developing and shifting and changing and life experiences are shifting you.
Natasha Helfer [01:35:23] So of course it's going to be change. I think we get married with the expectation that it's going to be you and me, baby, against the world, and then you're like, shoot, it's you and me, baby, against each other.
Natasha Helfer [01:35:36] That's most of the tension and the conflicts. And we're not necessarily prepared for that. So differentiation. I love the word differentiation. It is different than individuation. Individuation is more about becoming an individual. Differentiation is about staying connected. It's about connection while making room for the individual aspects of each person.
Natasha Helfer [01:35:57] So that's a really beautiful thought. And we all do best when, yes, there is a foundation of shared values and ideas. Those can shift and change, too, over time. But there's this ability to not only tolerate, but even get to celebrate how a person might show up in a different way than you do. And that's scary because usually we've been taught that kind of ownership model of marriage. You belong to me, I belong to you. And therefore your job is to show up in a way that makes me least uncomfortable.
Natasha Helfer [01:36:30] And that's where we get into trouble. Because then I can't really show up. Right. If I can only show up in a way that keeps you comfortable, which I think Kattie is like, you're saying, well, okay, I guess I can accept this. As long as you don't go this. This way. Right. I'm not going to let you change that much, which is not really in your control. We all have deal breakers. We all have boundaries. We talk about that, too. This isn't black and white. There are things that sometimes you're like, you know what? If you're going to go that direction, I'm not sure I can stick with you.
Natasha Helfer [01:36:56] That's okay, too. But there's a lot of things that couples end up being flexible on because their relationship does matter. They do love each other. There is respect. There is commitment and loyalty and willingness.
Allan Mount [01:37:10] Yeah. We literally went to therapy over my TikTok. That's not metaphorical. We sat down for multiple sessions with therapists. That's plural. To talk about how do we handle
John Dehlin [01:37:26] TikTok, or your expression and exploration of disbelief.
Allan Mount [01:37:30] Yes. Which in that stage and even to present day was and continues to be TikTok. And when we no longer, you know, the like, cute celebrity names like Jennifer Affleck, Jason Fleck or whatever it is. Bennifer. It's not Callan. It's Kattie and Allan. It's not Jacelyn. It's Jason and Jocelyn.
John Dehlin [01:37:54] It's.
Allan Mount [01:37:54] It's two different people. When Kattie could. When we finally got to the place where it was. Kattie understands that I need this outlet. I need to be able to go onto TikTok and express myself creatively and critically of the things that I don't agree with, et cetera. And it was not going to be something she needed to go and consume. That made a big difference to this day. It makes a big difference where I don't feel like it's a hush hush recording the video with her over my shoulder anymore. I feel like it's something that, that she supports even if she doesn't agree or understand. And I think you do understand, like, why I need to do it in many, many ways.
John Dehlin [01:38:36] And still, Kattie, as I'm thinking about the believing mindset, I don't know if there's anything more terrifying or difficult than being a believer and having your spouse tell you that they're atheist and don't believe in the immortal Jesus and then staying married to that person, like, I think there are probably many believers, their first thought is, well, we have to get divorced for sure. If you're an atheist and don't believe in Jesus, we can't build a marriage on that. How in the world can you build a marriage as a believing Latter Day Saint on, you know, with someone who some would paint as the enemy. Right. That atheists and Antichrists, and I use that term loosely, are enemies. How do you do that?
Kattie Mount [01:39:26] Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I think that one thing that people have to understand is it's very easy for us to cast judgment on what other people should do or how other people live their lives. It is another thing to be in your own marriage, living it.
Kattie Mount [01:39:44] And so because I'm in my own marriage and I live it and I see the day today and I see that Allan is a really wonderful human who's kind and he's a good father and he's a good spouse, there is some cognitive dissonance within myself thinking, well, wait, I believe that we'll be together forever, but how can that be when he doesn't believe in the same things as I do?
Kattie Mount [01:40:13] And that can be really tricky. I don't have an answer for it. I think that all I can do is just continue to live a good life. And, you know, I joke that we'll see when we wake up, you know, when we go to sleep, one of us will be right and one of us will be wrong, or maybe neither of us are right or wrong at this point. It does not matter to me. Honestly.
Kattie Mount [01:40:41] I have seen many good, like women marry people who have temple recommends who are in terrible marriages, and vice versa. And so it's not a precursor to how that person will treat you. And speaking of black and white, we're so hung up on these ideas of the checklist things. And it's funny because we learn well in church, like, well, we shouldn't always be doing the checklist things. And yet we impose these checklist things on ourselves and on other people. So if for the very orthodox wife who's listening, or orthodox husband that's listening, I would say to look at the behavior day to day and how you're treated and how your marriage grows, and that's kind of what you work on.
Kattie Mount [01:41:33] And as time, time heals a lot of things and this is one of those things that. But as time has passed and we've really worked through a lot, it has been really great to see the, you know, love stay the same even though we have different ideas and we quite frankly have super interesting conversations now because we don't think the same way. And it's challenged me to think in other ways and it's challenged him to consider maybe like the spiritual side that I still believe in.
Allan Mount [01:42:10] So can I. I want to return. She said something nice about me, so I want to return the favor. She I actually don't know that we've had this conversation. We've gotten in the habit of airing things live in here, so we're just going to keep it up. I often get, maybe not often like every day or every week or even every month, but I have gotten the question many times, how do you, how do you support or how are you with a believer?
Allan Mount [01:42:38] A lot of times it's coming from people on TikTok that are outside of Mormonism, have never been in Mormonism and then they follow me on TikTok for months and months and months and then find out that I'm in a mixed faith marriage and I'm married to a Mormon woman.
Allan Mount [01:42:52] And they go in the comments, they're like how in the world do you do that? And I usually give a response that is something like this and it's very, very similar. This is like a cool bridge building moment because I could almost exactly respond the way Kattie just did of the way that she practices her religion is not threatening to any individual or group of individuals. She is so loving and so kind to everyone around her, both in and out and in between of religion. It doesn't matter. She is so wonderful. And I think that that also reminds me that not everyone is in that situation.
Allan Mount [01:43:33] So I feel like I'm super lucky in my mixed faith marriage because my wife is. I mean you're sitting here, Cal, just the first person talk to you directly. Kattie is just extremely kind. She is the type of person that I would support in any way of her journey that she wanted to go because she's just, just doesn't have a mean bone in her body, a swearing bone. Sometimes, sometimes the swearing comes out.
Kattie Mount [01:43:59] But thank you, that was very nice.
Allan Mount [01:44:02] I'll kiss you later.
Building a Relationship on Shared Values
Natasha Helfer [01:44:03] Well, you and I have been talking about this for years, John, right? As values instead of if you're going to base your relationship on beliefs that's not as strong as basing your relationship and foundation on values and principles. And I talk about this in the workshop too, from. From other language that other sociologists have used. It's like, are you going to be act centered or are you going to be relationship centered? Right. So. And the Bible and most scriptures that people have in various world religions will have contradictions within its own writings. Right.
Natasha Helfer [01:44:41] Is it mercy or is it justice? You know, is it obedience or is it. Yeah, is it obedience or is it wisdom? Right. I mean, what. There's all these ethics and considerations that even scriptural stories will point out. The wrestles. So if you're going to be very orthodox and no, we just have to do the checkboxes and you must do these, you know, act centered things, you probably are going to struggle more in making a mixed faith marriage sustainable. Whereas if you can, you know, think about, you know, in Mormonism, we talk about the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. We have that language.
Natasha Helfer [01:45:16] If you go with the spirit of the law and get away from some of those very square, rigid ways of thinking to. Well, the principle is still here, then that's where there's a lot of potential. So much potential, so much beauty, so much growth that I think you both have experienced. I've seen you experience it and you showcase it right here in front of all of us.
John Dehlin [01:45:43] And Kattie, at the end of the day, do you believe that loving, heavenly parents are gonna make it all right, you know, in the next life?
Kattie Mount [01:45:50] I think that it's gonna work out the way it's supposed to work out, and I don't worry about it. So I personally believe that Allan and I will still be together. We'll still be with our children. I think that that's given no matter what you believe, but we'll see. No one knows.
Allan Mount [01:46:10] And I think that we're gonna enjoy the time we have and then rot in the dirt. Isn't it beautiful? Isn't that beautiful? Which is more poetic?
Kattie Mount [01:46:20] You know, whatever it is, we will take the opportunity to love each other today and be good people. Just because, like, maybe nothing after this, like Allan believes, but also we just feel like we have a duty to each other and to humanity to be good people and good stewards. And I still think that Allan's probably the most. I mean, he's an atheist, but high morals, high values, good beliefs that we still should be good to others.
Allan Mount [01:46:56] A lot of the. I mean, this is not the point of the topic, but a lot of the things that I try to be are because I think this is the only life we have. So in a lot of ways, this, like, my moral compass is directly tied to my belief that this is the only time we have to treat people well. And so we might as well be optimistic and positive in this life because, you know, it's the one, the only one we get. I'm glad I get to be with all y', all, especially this one.
Natasha Helfer [01:47:26] Yeah. And isn't it interesting that both of you shared those beliefs? Both of those things are very futuristic. Both of them are really things we can't know for sure. And yet we're living in the here and now today, this moment where you get to go home tonight to your children and put them to bed. And are you going to do that in a way that is respectful? Are you going to name, call each other? Are you going to belittle each other? Are you going to treat each other roughly, or are you going to be calm and kind? And that's why, yes, we see people who are very religious, who are very abusive. We see people who are atheists and are very abusive, vice versa.
Kattie Mount [01:47:59] Right.
Natasha Helfer [01:48:00] Very kind and respectful people. So that's where we want to stay. Relationship and principle centered beliefs, they matter. They obviously matter. They organize our values sometimes. But at the end of the day, how, you know, are we following the Golden Rule like, or the Platinum Rule, like Elon Musk. That's right.
John Dehlin [01:48:16] That's right. Just to close out this point, one of the saddest things I've experienced is when I meet these couples who were, you know, married in the Mormon temple and then 10, 20 years into their marriage with multiple kids.
John Dehlin [01:48:31] One or both of them come to me in tears and they say, I'm divorcing my best friend. They just, their, their theology somehow became so recalcitrant or rigid that they couldn't imagine, even though they loved the person they were with, with, they found them to be moral. They found them to be good people. They were best friends.
John Dehlin [01:48:53] Their worldview, their religious worldview or their secular worldview made them feel like they just couldn't stay in the relationship. And I would just say there's beauty in differentiation. There's beauty and difference. You can both contribute different things that can make not just the marriage more rich, but, but provide different types of role models to the children. Because one thing I can guarantee believers and non believers is that if you have four or more kids and they were raised at least till 18 as Mormons, there's a decent chance that some of them will stay in the church and some of them will leave the church.
John Dehlin [01:49:34] So why not have a parent that represents Both paths. And there may be other paths as well. But. But more importantly, why break up with your best friend? Why destroy a healthy relationship and a healthy family system if religion, Religious differences are the only really main barrier between you? Margi likes to say beliefs are overrated. And I don't think she says that to denigrate beliefs. I just think she says that to say don't. Don't let beliefs. Beliefs break up and interfere with what would otherwise be a healthy friendship and a healthy relationship and a healthy family system. Don't do it.
John Dehlin [01:50:19] And I promise you, the single market is complex and fraught, and sometimes you can jump out of a frying pan into the fire. Not to make you feel afraid, because other times people might find their soulmate, but just don't ruin. Do everything you can to avoid ruining a good relationship or an otherwise healthy marriage. That's what I believe.
Natasha Helfer [01:50:46] Yeah. I've never understood, really, the leaving primarily for religious differences. There's really no scriptural support for it. I know that there's cultural support for it, but that's different. And I also think it. But you are. You are taking a gamble because you're assuming that you have control over the future person that you're going to.
John Dehlin [01:51:06] Yeah. Like they may not have a faith crisis.
Natasha Helfer [01:51:08] Right. Like they may have a faith crisis. You may have a faith crisis. Or there may be other crises. Right. That you're going to have to face.
John Dehlin [01:51:15] Exactly.
Natasha Helfer [01:51:15] And so all these skills and principles that we're talking about apply to so many different spaces.
John Dehlin [01:51:21] Yeah.
Natasha Helfer [01:51:21] And. Yeah. So that's. I just. I think there. I'm not. I'm not a believer that all marriages should stay together. And sometimes faith transitions is the last straw. Right. Of many, many complex issues. But if it is kind of the main thing, I think that's a very
Can Mixed-Faith Marriages Truly Thrive
Allan Mount [01:51:38] sad reason that took us a long time, longer than it should have to recognize that when we started the podcast, in this community, our goal was no marriage must end all marriages. You must stay married. And that we've learned.
Kattie Mount [01:51:54] Sorry, I was in a Gandalf voice.
Allan Mount [01:51:56] That's right.
John Dehlin [01:51:57] You shall not divorce.
Allan Mount [01:51:59] We tried. We thought that was the goal. And we learned pretty quickly. It's like, no, we want healthy relationships.
Natasha Helfer [01:52:06] Yes.
Allan Mount [01:52:07] Like, the goal is healthy relationships. And sometimes, like you said, this could be the last straw and there could be other problems. And now we need to go our ways. We know couples, very, very close couples that we've been friends with for a long time that have divorced. And some of them, it's a very sad situation. They both didn't want that to happen. Others, they both agreed that this is the best thing for the relationship and the family and they're both very happy. And it's a complex topic. Right?
Natasha Helfer [01:52:34] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:52:35] All right, I'm going to quickly read a comment from Terry. Terry writes, love this live stream. I'm in a mixed faith marriage right now. I'm an ex Mormon atheist and my husband is still a true believing Mormon and it's so tough. Well, thank you for sharing that, Tori. We're so glad you joined us. And that's why Marriage on a Tightrope podcast exists. Please Google and support them. I want to make one clear distinction right now. If you Google Marriage on a Tightrope, it goes to their old website and their old podcast and there's even an old donation button there. And, and I just want to make sure people know that Kattie and Allen have launched, they're launching a new website, a new podcast, a new YouTube channel, and again, what's the new URL for people in the future once it's resolving
Allan Mount [01:53:26] tightropemarriage.org that's where you can support sort
John Dehlin [01:53:30] of Marriage on a tightrope 2.0. And they've got a donor box button that you can click on and become a monthly donor there. All right, thanks so much, Tori for joining us. We've got two more to go, so we're rounding out our 10 points. Point number nine from Allan is accept early. The change can be a good thing. I do think we've covered this quite a bit today.
Allan Mount [01:53:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:53:53] But what do you want to say about that?
Allan Mount [01:53:55] No, the only thing I wanted to say, in fact, these last two points, Kattie and I wrote them for each other, just for context. We wrote for each that we were going to say, these are the mistakes that I made. And then the last point each, we wanted to write one that says, here is something from the non believing perspective. I wish would have happened. I wish would have happened on Kattie's side. This is a difficult one to express from my position because what I'm not saying is I wish Kattie would have accepted that I was right in the beginning and she just would have changed immediately. Like, that's actually not what I'm trying
John Dehlin [01:54:28] to say, but it is what every ex Mormon feels. They want their spouse to lose their faith and leave the church. Right. Kattie, you're naughty.
Kattie Mount [01:54:35] Yeah, I mean Allan, the more things like he tried in the beginning very hard to present all of the reasons why he felt the way he did and he felt justified. And how could how could you feel, how could you know this information but still want to go to church? And the more he did that, the more it pushed me away.
Allan Mount [01:54:58] Yeah, you can't pull someone into a faith crisis. And it's not compassionate to do either. It's not effective, it's not compassionate, and
John Dehlin [01:55:05] it may not be good for them.
Allan Mount [01:55:06] Right, that's right. So the sooner, and this is slightly beside the point that we're talking about right now, but the sooner that I accepted both that that was not compassionate, that was not necessarily the good thing for Kattie or what she wanted, the better the mixed faith marriage went.
Allan Mount [01:55:25] The reason why I put accept that change can be a good thing for Kattie is that I think it's looking back at the last five years. A lot of the breakthroughs that we have had is when one or the other of us has embraced a change that is occurring. Whether that's I held on too long to church attendance and didn't rip that band aid off and just stop.
Allan Mount [01:55:55] I held on a little bit too long. Or Kattie held on a little bit too long to us for us to go and do things on Sundays that we hadn't done before. When we, both of us started to embrace change in this situation, that this stuff was coming in five plus years, a lot of these changes were going to occur. And we tried to hold on so much to what, what was. Rather than embrace the good that could have come once that started to happen, we experienced a whole lot of growth. So that's what the whole point of this is. And Kattie, you even talked about this
Kattie Mount [01:56:31] a little earlier, right. And I think too, I mean, there. Brene Brown talks about this, right? Kind of when the waves hit you and you're in the ocean and you're like, rather than tense up and just kind of like not wanting it to pull you under and just, you know, get pounded by wave after wave, actually just releasing yourself into that wave and letting you kind of go with the flow is better for your mental health. It was better for our marriage where we could just kind of brave the water together and rather than, you know, try to like sink our feet in the sand and hold steady to where we were and we weren't budging.
Kattie Mount [01:57:15] We could just sort of let the wave come wash over us or we could float on top of it or it could drag us under, but we always popped back up. And that was always, that was really, really helpful to kind of like submit to the. All of the fear that we had and all of the pain that we were feeling when we submitted. It actually allowed us to pop up quicker than before and we weren't as tired.
John Dehlin [01:57:46] Love it.
Allan Mount [01:57:47] I really want Kattie to always know that I support her journey regardless of where it goes. So when we talk about change, this does not have to be change in her that aligns her with what I already, what I believe now or what I feel. That actually is not the entire purpose. And I think that her Kattie, emotionally and intellectually understanding that that is not the intent behind me welcoming her. Change allows her to embrace exactly who she needs to become and needs to be. And I mean, how many times have we said both directions? I support you and will be with you regardless of who you are or where you go or what you believe or if you don't change any of those things, I am here. And just that freedom to know that we are here by each other has been like, oh, has just been so important for our marriage.
John Dehlin [01:58:45] Yeah.
Natasha Helfer [01:58:45] This is another vessel. Right. Because we're consistently influx and change and it's also we're consistently resisting change. I mean, that's kind of a human dilemma. So the more I think that's a lot of mindfulness work and kind of intentionality work is to kind of like you're saying, Kattie, go with the flow and accept what can't change. And yeah, move in those directions becomes
Allan Mount [01:59:09] a fun game to be curious about who your partner is turning into. Like the next 40 years, if we're lucky, is exciting to think about. Who are you going to be in two years? I don't know. It's gonna be. I get to get to know her over and over and over again.
Kattie Mount [01:59:27] Well, this is a question that I asked John. We went to a concert together, and I said, john, you're in your second act. What's your third act? And it is. It's exciting to think about. You just don't know where it'll take you.
John Dehlin [01:59:42] Yeah, why not keep life interesting. I love it. Really quickly, before we jump to our last point, there's some really important comments that have come in and my dear friend, Karen Fifield. Hey, Karen. I met Karen back in the D.C. area back in 2011, 2012. Karen writes, thank you for the point that the goal is healthy relationships, not just the absence of a divorce. Thank you, Karen. I love and miss you. Thanks for that affirmation. Also, Karen was kind and generous enough to provide a super chat donation.
John Dehlin [02:00:15] So Karen donated and you can donate to Marriage on a Tigray podcast to Mormon stories on YouTube just through the little chat window. You click on the little dollar sign and send us a donation. That's kind of how we keep the lights on. So thanks Karen for the super chat and thanks everyone who donates to what we do.
John Dehlin [02:00:34] A couple other quick comments and then we'll go to our last point. Rebuilding My Life writes, I will testify that the workshop these fine people do is amazing. It helped us see a lot of areas we were lacking in our communication. Highly recommend the Tightrope workshop. And for those of you who don't know they're hosting an online workshop that you can go to the description in YouTube or Facebook, click on the link register. Natasha Allen and Kattie lead a quarterly mixed faith marriage workshop that I highly recommend. So thanks for rebuilding my life for that endorsement. Pam writes, my marriage is so much healthier as a mixed faith marriage than it was when I was trying to fit the Mormon mold.
John Dehlin [02:01:27] That didn't work for me. Thank you, Pam. And I can totally say that a mixed faith marriage might be one of the hardest things you ever do. But if you lean into getting the right support and handling it the right way, it can become the biggest gift you or your marriage ever had. And we'll talk in a second about how therapy and other resources can play a role in that.
John Dehlin [02:01:52] And then also Tori writes, I love that, Pam. My husband and I are definitely communicating more openly than we ever have. And that's part of the promise is that it can just improve differentiation, improve diversity, and bring new things to your relationship. So, all right, this brings us to point 10 in this amazing 10.2 hour episode. Point 10 is not seeking professional help early on. Kattie, you're mentioning that as a mistake. I guess what you're saying is you could have sought professional support earlier. Do you want to talk about that?
Mistake Ten: Navigating Without Support or Guidance
Kattie Mount [02:02:31] Sure. I remember asking the stake leaders, is there anyone I can talk to? I need a roadmap. I don't know anyone in a mixed faith marriage. And so is there anyone I can talk to you about this? Like, can you just. Don't even give me a name right now, but can you think of someone that might be willing to talk to me? And the answer was no.
Kattie Mount [02:02:54] And I realized there is a huge, I wouldn't say market, but there is. There's a huge group of people that are being overlooked, right. People who are transitioning, who don't have anyone to talk to, nowhere to go and not really and unsure of the resources. I remember looking up Googling different groups and a few things came up but they were not Mormon related.
Kattie Mount [02:03:20] And I thought, well, that doesn't really pertain to me when now I know so many religions go through the same things, these orthodox religions, right. High demand religions that are very similar. But I wish we would have gotten a therapist early on. I think we would have saved ourselves maybe a lot of these points that we made today.
Kattie Mount [02:03:45] But it's people who are doing really good work, like Natasha. I just have to say Natasha was on our radar and we approached her and said, hey, we know you do work with mixed faith couples, and would you think about doing this workshop with us? And she was all in from the beginning and she said, oh, my gosh, I have so much research, because she's a professional, she knows what she's talking about. And she was so delightful. And I felt like. Like she cared genuinely for both the believer, the non believer, the nuance, and it was really like. So it's so great going through these workshops with other couples because Allan and I are reminded every time about some of these great tools with communication and so on and so forth that we really lacked for a long time and have been able to sharpen over the years.
Kattie Mount [02:04:45] But I don't know, Natasha, maybe you can answer this. How many people do you see that have never spoken to a marriage therapist before you or in the workshop before you about mixed faith marriage?
Finding Therapists and Resources for Mixed-Faith Couples
Natasha Helfer [02:05:01] Yeah, I would say a majority of people have not gone to somebody else or if they have, you know, not all professionals are trained. I wasn't trained in how to work with mixed faith marriages. I had to kind of do a lot of my own, you know, my own training, my own research, my own readings and kind of trial and error sometimes. Unfortunately, I always think about my first mixed faith couples that I work with, and I feel like they were my guinea pigs and they were lovely. I still can remember them clearly because it did create a lot of professional anxiety for me that I didn't feel like I had tools to help the way that I would have wanted.
Natasha Helfer [02:05:39] So, yeah, after 25 years, I guess I feel a bit more confident in that arena. It's still challenging, right? But that's what my practice specifically specializes in, is in faith transitions and all the things that come with that. Which one of them is huge is mixed faith families and marriages.
Natasha Helfer [02:06:00] So, unfortunately, I hear a lot of people who go to secular therapists or therapists who don't understand much about religion. Sometimes therapists aren't necessarily trained in marriage counseling either, but we'll see couples. So there's a lot of shifts and there's a lot of people doing wonderful work out there, and there's people who are just not as equipped. They may do really good work in another area, but not so much in this area. So I'm a big believer of trying to find people correct resources. So my practice is one of those. I founded the Mormon Mental Health association specifically for therapists who work with kind of the LDS Mormon spectrum of folks from FLDS all the way to Community of Christ to everybody in the middle.
Natasha Helfer [02:06:43] So we really attract therapists who are well versed in these kind of issues as well. So there are a lot of great resources. And I know that there are other resources as well through Christian communities and Judaic communities and things like that.
John Dehlin [02:06:58] Natasha's so nice, but what I'm going to say is, is go to symmetrypath.com and hire Natasha as your therapist for your mixed faith marriage. Like, you're so diplomatic, Natasha. But you know, I can say as someone who's worked for 20 years in this space, there aren't a lot of, you know, if you needed brain surgery, you wouldn't go to an eye doctor. If you, if you needed a leg amputated, you wouldn't go to a psychologist. Right. Like, like a mixed faith marriage is a specialty. And I'm saying this with a PhD in psychology, you don't want to go to some generic therapist who doesn't understand your culture, who doesn't understand the dynamics of a mixed faith marriage.
John Dehlin [02:07:40] Again, if they're secular, they usually and if they've never been in a high demand religion, they tend to downplay and dismiss the believing person and the intensity of the trauma and the difficulty of the relationship. And if they are just an orthodox believer and they haven't developed an expertise in mixed faith marriages, they oftentimes will talk down to the non believer, tell them to pray and read their scriptures and practice in frankly, an unethical way. So there's a cultural competence and a finesse and a level of expertise that you only get by study and by practice and by years of experience. And right now you're looking at one of the few people in the world that's got 20 years of professional hands on experience dealing with mixed faith couples.
John Dehlin [02:08:34] So freaking hire natasha helfer@ symmetrypath.com as your therapist not just for mixed faith marriages, but for marriages. She does individual therapy as well. Was I too heavy handed there, Natasha?
Natasha Helfer [02:08:47] Thank you, John.
John Dehlin [02:08:48] Was I too ham fisted?
Allan Mount [02:08:50] No, you're talking, go ahead.
Kattie Mount [02:08:52] Well, I was. No, I was just gonna say I think that sometimes there's a tendency for the believer to say, well, I want us to go to an only LDS therapist or someone who is out, that's like, I only want us to go to someone who is not in the church. And I can tell you, workshop after workshop, very so many, both believers and non believers are like, so where exactly does Natasha fall? Because Natasha is so professional and she's worked with both groups. And I think that she does a great job of giving both groups, wherever you fall on that spectrum, the opportunity and the compassion to talk about what's most difficult in your relationship. And she does such a. A good job of melding those two together where everyone feels safe. Everyone. And I think that that's a huge, sort of like you can say testimony. Testimony to how she does these workshops.
Natasha Helfer [02:09:54] Thank you. Gosh.
Allan Mount [02:09:55] Cosign, cosign.
Natasha Helfer [02:09:56] Thank you.
Allan Mount [02:09:56] I concur.
Natasha Helfer [02:09:57] But I mean, genuinely, I sincerely respect and love people on any side of that belief spectrum. I sincerely do. So that's genuine. And maybe that's what makes a difference. I don't know. And I can see it. I can see it from both sides. I always thought I was wishy washy, but actually being wishy washy is a good thing when you're a therapist because it helps you, like, helps you see things from a lot of different angles. And I can really see it. I can really see it from the transitioner's side and I can really see it from the believer's side. And I genuinely want to help both people.
John Dehlin [02:10:30] So to drive this point home, I'll just share one more comment. Tammy Miller. This is a sad comment, Tammy. Thank you for being vulnerable. Tammy writes, my marriage of 27 years in my naive mind was good. When I meekly, humbly informed my husband that I didn't have a testimony anymore, he told me I was now nothing to him. And we are nothing. We are divorced. So, Tammy, I'm so sorry that that happened. I appreciate your vulnerability. And I want to say that's why we're doing this podcast. That's why Allan and Kattie started marriage on a tightrope podcast. Go check out that podcast. Subscribe to it. The new version. Allan, Kattie 2.0. Look for that logo. They're going to be adding all their back episodes to that podcast stream very soon, or else. And it's an amazing catalog of 100.
Allan Mount [02:11:26] 138.
John Dehlin [02:11:27] 38 episodes where they've interviewed other couples, where they've talked through their own issues. You can kind of go with them through their own journey, through their podcast. So please check out Marriage on a tightrope 2.0 podcast. The domain to check out that will point you there is tightropemarriage.org we'll get the DNS issues resolved. You could also go to the description of this podcast to check it out. But also I'm going to just end as I started. Please go to their website and become a monthly donor to their podcast. Their promise to you is to create good content and to moderate a really robust Facebook group of over 5,000 Mormons and in some cases never Mormons who have experienced or are experiencing a mixed faith marriage.
John Dehlin [02:12:26] It's an amazing support group. You have no idea the complexity of moderating a mixed faith marriage forum where there are believers and non believers in it. There are also amazing Marco Polo groups for whether you're a believing spouse or non believing spouse. It's an amazing community of support. And if you're a part of this Facebook community and you are not a monthly donor to Allan and Kattie, I'm calling you on the carpet right now. Become a monthly donor to Marriage on a Tightrope podcast. Not only to thank them for the ways that they've helped you and your relationship, but also to pay forward the support they've given you to future couples.
John Dehlin [02:13:08] Because if we know anything but it's that the number of mixed faith marriages, both in Mormonism and in other high demand religions worldwide is only going to increase in frequency and in prevalence, not flatline. Because we all know about the rise of the nuns and how religions are on the decline in the developed world.
John Dehlin [02:13:30] So the demand for what Kattie and Allan do is only going to increase. So please check out their podcast and their new YouTube channel, Marriage on a Tightrope. Please become a monthly donor through their website, Tightrope Marriage. Please register if you need support. They put on a quarterly mixed faith marriage workshop online with up to 20 couples.
Allan Mount [02:13:54] I believe 25.
John Dehlin [02:13:55] We kept 25 couples. It's a marriage changing and if you don't, you know, we saw Tories. Was it Tori's comment? And how. Tammy's comment. We saw how sad that was. Save your marriage now by getting a therapist like Natasha, by checking out their podcast, by joining their community, by checking out this workshop. There's so many people who say, I wish I had known about the workshop, about Natasha, about the podcast before my marriage got wrecked. So do yourself a favor, check out these resources. What else did I forget? Am I, am I your shill? Am I shilling?
Allan Mount [02:14:36] You're shilling.
John Dehlin [02:14:36] Am I shilling for you guys?
Kattie Mount [02:14:38] Hype man over here.
Allan Mount [02:14:40] Yeah, you know, I, I just wanted to.
John Dehlin [02:14:42] I'M just sick of people coming to me saying, I'm in a mixed fake marriage. What do I do? And I'm like, how do you not know about Kattie and Allan and Natasha? I'm sick of it.
Allan Mount [02:14:50] This is why we created it. It's because we went through it. We went through how devastating it was to get that response from family and stake presidency members and bishoprics of. There are no resources. I have no one to offer to help you. We said, well, screw it. We'll create the space ourself. And I mean, that was like. That was also a game changing decision for us because it truly has changed our lives. I think one of the coolest things Kattie's ever said is she considers marriage in a tightrope. One of the. One of the. No, can I say this? Why don't you say it in your own words?
Kattie Mount [02:15:23] I don't know what you're gonna say. Go ahead, say it.
Allan Mount [02:15:25] Of all the callings you've held, where does this rank?
Kattie Mount [02:15:29] Yeah, it's this. Is this. Well, this is the context. I was complaining to a friend, I'm never gonna be able to go on a mission with my spouse. And she's like, but don't you feel like you've had a bigger impact doing what you do now than you would ever had on as a missionary? And I thought this is like, this was a calling. I felt called to this and I continue to feel called to it.
Natasha Helfer [02:15:54] That's beautiful.
John Dehlin [02:15:55] Yeah, it is.
Allan Mount [02:15:56] Very abrupt, tactical point to make when you search for the podcast feed in the podcast app of your choice, Apple, Spotify, et cetera, there are two marriage and a tightrope feeds. You want the one that says Kattie and Allan's version. It's black with red letters. That's a little Taylor Swift shout out. So there you go.
Audience Comments and Final Reflections
John Dehlin [02:16:14] All right, really quickly, I'll read a couple more comments. I love this. Kaladin writes, my wife and I are listening to this together. Meaning this episode took a long time to get to the point where we could share in something like this. So shout out to Kaladin and spouse.
Natasha Helfer [02:16:34] That's beautiful.
John Dehlin [02:16:37] Mary writes, I'm the believer with an atheist husband. It's possible to make it work, get involved in whatever may work for you. Podcast, Facebook group, Marco Polo Workshop. There are so many reasons, there are so many resources. Love you both.
Allan Mount [02:16:55] Mary is one of our.
John Dehlin [02:16:56] Mary Hayward.
Allan Mount [02:16:57] Yes. She's one of our fearless admins of our Facebook group.
Kattie Mount [02:17:02] It's Mary. It's pronounced Mary.
Allan Mount [02:17:04] What did I say?
Kattie Mount [02:17:05] I don't. I thought I said Mary Okay, Mary.
John Dehlin [02:17:07] Mary.
Allan Mount [02:17:08] Anyway, she is delightful. We love you, Mary.
John Dehlin [02:17:10] Thanks, mary. Pam writes, Two years ago, my husband went up to St. George with me to listen to Kattie and Allen. Listening to them talk about their journey really helped him see how I felt and where I was hoping to get to in their mixed faith marriage. So thanks for sharing that, Pam. That's another shout out to the good work. Allan and Kattie, do a couple more. Ray Lawler writes, I'm not married, but Natasha's episode have helped me a ton with healing from sexual shame. Natasha, what podcast is he talking about there? I've run the Mormon stories.
Natasha Helfer [02:17:45] Yeah, well, probably. We've done a lot of stuff on your show. I also did Mormon sex info for a long time, which has now converted to the Natasha Helfer podcast.
John Dehlin [02:17:56] So you have a podcast as well? Yeah, check that out on Spotify and Apple Podcast.
Natasha Helfer [02:17:59] Come on my podcast, John.
John Dehlin [02:18:00] You gotta invite me.
Natasha Helfer [02:18:01] I'm gonna invite you. Okay.
Allan Mount [02:18:03] I think it just happened.
John Dehlin [02:18:05] All right, it's a deal. Check out Natasha Helpers podcast. Mary also writes, Natasha is amazing at validating everyone. Thanks for that as well. I agree. Rebuilding my life says great show. Love each of you with lots of kissy faces. And finally, Jana Banana writes. Good show all. And so I will just just say thank you, Kattie, thanks for coming to Voldemort's Den to.
Natasha Helfer [02:18:36] Oh my word.
John Dehlin [02:18:39] To be on Mormon Stories podcast. I'm joking. I'm just joking.
Kattie Mount [02:18:43] I would never consider. John and Margi are good friends of ours. I would never consider this Voldemort's Den.
John Dehlin [02:18:50] It's just fun.
Kattie Mount [02:18:51] It is fun. It's kind of a fun house in here. There's lights and cameras at every angle.
John Dehlin [02:18:55] And all this bridge and brick. Oh, that's amazing.
Kattie Mount [02:18:58] More like Harry Potter.
Allan Mount [02:18:59] That's right. Don't blow too hard on the brick.
John Dehlin [02:19:02] All right, Kattie, thanks for coming on. Allan, are we working out tomorrow or not? Let's go.
Allan Mount [02:19:05] We are working out. It is leg and chest day, my friend. Before you kick it to Natasha, who rightfully should say goodbye last. I debated saying this now or when the camera stopped, but I feel like it's worth saying.
Allan Mount [02:19:19] John, you don't have to do shows like this. You have plenty to do. I'll speak to the listener or the viewer. John is a master, not just at the technical stuff, but at highlighting voices. I've seen him do it with so many people and he does not have to do it. He has plenty of work to do. It's 8:38 in the evening and it means A lot.
Allan Mount [02:19:47] Not just as a friend of yours, but. But knowing that you are standing up for people on both sides of belief and offering that help, and you have been doing so for years, just speaks worlds about who you are as a person. And I'm very happy to know you, my friend. Thank you for everything.
John Dehlin [02:20:05] Thanks, Allan.
Allan Mount [02:20:06] You're getting such a big hug after this. Holy cow.
Natasha Helfer [02:20:08] I second all of that.
Kattie Mount [02:20:11] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:20:12] Thank you.
Allan Mount [02:20:13] Warm fuzzies.
John Dehlin [02:20:13] Thanks, man.
Allan Mount [02:20:14] Kiss the emoji. Right back at gotcha.
John Dehlin [02:20:16] Well, I'm getting old, so I gotta pass the torch. Right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. And, Natasha, final words.
Closing Thoughts and Where to Find More Help
Natasha Helfer [02:20:27] Just. It's all about love, man. Love is all about love, love, love.
John Dehlin [02:20:33] Well, I'll share the. You know, again, symmetrypath.com is Natasha's website.
Natasha Helfer [02:20:38] Yeah. And I. I run a lot of groups. I mean, this isn't the only group I've.
John Dehlin [02:20:41] Oh, yeah, Talk about your groups.
Natasha Helfer [02:20:42] I think that I'm starting a religious trauma group next week. Not everybody who leaves religion.
John Dehlin [02:20:49] And these are online groups. They're not in person.
Natasha Helfer [02:20:52] It doesn't matter where you live. I did that on purpose because people complain a lot about things only happening in Utah, so I get that. I lived not in Utah for a very long time, but not everybody who leaves religion necessarily is traumatized by it. But a lot of people are. And especially since we're talking about mixed faith relationships, a lot of times, what I hear from a believing spouse, it's not that I mind that they transition. It's just. It seems like they can't get over the anger, and it's just sitting and staying and it's affecting, you know, the ability for us to just move on.
Natasha Helfer [02:21:22] So if you're in that space where it's just kind of. Maybe you've left three months ago, maybe you left three years ago, but you're still really struggling to just kind of emotionally regulate with issues with the church. The religious trauma group is a good one. I do reclaiming female sexuality. I do male sexual shame. I do sexual trauma work.
John Dehlin [02:21:40] So these are all
Natasha Helfer [02:21:43] having to do with faith transitions.
John Dehlin [02:21:45] And where would someone go to find these groups and to register for them?
Natasha Helfer [02:21:49] Symmetrypath.com groups.
John Dehlin [02:21:52] Okay.
Natasha Helfer [02:21:53] They're all there. And some of my providers do groups as well, especially for LGBTQ folks especially, and etc.
John Dehlin [02:21:59] Nice.
Allan Mount [02:22:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:22:01] Well, it's good to have you back in studio, Natasha. We've missed you.
Natasha Helfer [02:22:04] I haven't been here for a minute.
John Dehlin [02:22:06] You're like, two doors down, and I never see.
Natasha Helfer [02:22:07] I know, I know. I need to knock here more often and bother you more often.
John Dehlin [02:22:12] Thanks for coming on.
Natasha Helfer [02:22:13] Thanks.
John Dehlin [02:22:13] All right. And thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. Please subscribe to the Marriage on a tightrope YouTube channel. Subscribe to Mormon Stories while you're at it. And we appreciate all the donors who go to mormonstories.org and click on the donate button. Become monthly donors to keep this podcast alive. Thanks to Julia for doing the time codes and show notes today. Thanks to Maven for all the post production stuff. Gerardo for the thumbnails and the friendship and the support, all our co hosts, our board and everyone who makes Mormon Stories in the Yoruba Stories foundation possible. Most importantly, thank you the viewer.
John Dehlin [02:22:50] Feel free to like this episode. It helps with the algorithms. Feel free to share it with everyone that you can. And most importantly, if you're in a mixed faith marriage, check out the Marriage on a Tightrope Facebook group with the Marco Polo groups and the podcast because that's just an amazing resource and I'm tired of people not knowing about it. So anyway, be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast and Marriage on a Tightrope and the Natasha Alfer podcast. Take care everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Kattie & Allan from Marriage on a Tightrope Podcast are back with more great tips for navigating a mixed-faith relationship. This time they are sharing their mistakes to save others from making the same!
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Show Notes:
Kattie and Allan Mount
- Donate to Marriage on a Tight Rope
- New Website – Tightropemarriage.org
- Marriage on a Tight Rope – Instagram
- Marriage on a Tightrope – Website
- Marriage on a Tightrope – YouTube
- Marriage on a Tightrope – Facebook
- Workshop on a Tightrope – Workshops
- Allan Mount’s TikTok
Natasha Helfer
- Natasha Helfer – Website
- Natasha Helfer – Podcast
- Natasha Helfer – Instagram
- Symmetry Solutions
- THRIVE
- Mormon Mental Health Association
- Religious Trauma Group – Natasha Helfer
- Natasha Helfer – Groups
Mormon Stories Related
- 1140-1142: Thriving as a Mormon Mixed-Faith Couple – Kattie and Allan Mount
- 1137-1139: Kattie and Allan Mount: Marriage on a Tightrope – Navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage
- 1579: Natasha Helfer’s Sex-Communication – One Year Later
- 1480: The Sources of Mormon Sexual Shame – Natasha Helfer
- 1426: Natasha Helfer Excommunication Debrief
- 1420: Natasha Helfer’s Apostasy Trial for Sexual Health Advocacy
- 762-764: Natasha Helfer Parker – Mormon Sex Therapist
One Response
It’s been several years since I’ve heard an MS podcast. I’ve been a fan of Allan and Kattie for a while, and I’ve been curious about the new direction of their podcast. My faith crisis/transition happened 15 years ago. Back then, John and Natasha were the only resources available to me and were a tremendous help. But I wish there was someone like Allan and Kattie I could turn to.
I agree that not sharing with one’s spouse could be a mistake, but I have a slightly different take. I shared what I was learning with my spouse in real-time, and it caused her to freak out and shut down. What I wish I would have done differently at that time would be to stop all the research and focus on improving communication and trust in my marriage. I think a key difference between marriages where both spouses leave simultaneously and a mixed-faith marriage is the level of healthy communication and trust. Both of those things had been lacking in my marriage, and we worked on that later. In retrospect, I think we put the cart before the horse.