Welcome and One-Year Retrospective Introduction

Host [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. Dare I say a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. We are here at the one year anniversary. And I shouldn't be all smiley and cheery about it, should I?

Guest [00:00:16] I think we can be smiley. I don't know about cheery. I think we can be smiley.

Host [00:00:22] We are here at the. We are somber and sober.

Guest [00:00:27] We have our Diet Cokes that may be pepping us up a little bit.

Host [00:00:32] We're here at the one year anniversary of the excommunication of our dear friend, our colleague, the beloved, the myth, the legend.

Guest [00:00:41] Oh, my lanta, Natasha Helfer.

Host [00:00:46] And she likes to call it her sex communication.

Guest [00:00:49] That's right. That's exactly what I like to call it.

Host [00:00:53] Yeah. It was literally a year ago today that I and Clinton, Jenny Martin and Janice Spangler, and was it Rebecca England.

Guest 2 [00:01:04] Jody.

Guest [00:01:05] Jody England, Jennifer White and Katie Mount and Kyle Ashworth and many, many others.

Host [00:01:16] Many, many others descended into Wichita, Kansas.

Guest [00:01:21] Yes.

Host [00:01:22] To try and show up for and witness a sad. I don't know. It was a comprehensively sad and tragic day. I have no happy memories. Literally, not one happy memory. And I don't mean to start so dark. I don't have a happy memory about that. That.

Guest [00:01:38] About that day. No, I would agree. Even me dancing to Queen was not really that happy. It was more like getting just my frustrations out.

Host [00:01:50] Yeah. Yeah. So we're here to process that and to honor Natasha and to give viewers and listeners maybe even a chance to call in and share their perspectives as well. But we're not alone. Natasha, you and I are not alone.

Guest [00:02:08] We are not.

Host [00:02:09] You're not alone. We are joined for the first time by a friend of mine who I've known longer than I've known Natasha.

Guest [00:02:20] That's crazy.

Host [00:02:21] But it's her first appearance formally on Mormon Stories Podcast. She's one of the founders of another Mormon themed podcast that has meant a lot to a lot of people for a long time. It's a podcast called Wardless that no longer is active but is still available.

Guest 2 [00:02:39] Oh, yeah.

Host [00:02:40] But it's Amy Heffernan. Hey, Amy.

Guest 2 [00:02:45] I'm a first timer. I'm a virgin to the Mormon Stories podcast.

Host [00:02:50] And you're a dear friend of Natasha's. Natasha asked that you be here, and I love you. And you just recently moved.

Guest 2 [00:02:56] I did.

Host [00:02:57] Back to Zion.

Guest 2 [00:02:58] Blew me back to Salt Lake City.

Host [00:03:00] You were in Seattle for a time. And now you're back where you should be, where you should have been all along.

Guest 2 [00:03:07] My roots, My childhood roots. I'M back.

Host [00:03:09] If you had not moved to Seattle, you would have been my Natasha and you would have not have been my Natasha.

Guest 2 [00:03:15] Oh, she would have.

Host [00:03:16] You would have been my Amy and you would have been my Natasha.

Guest 2 [00:03:19] Well, we probably. Or we could have, like, had some kind of polyamory situation going on. Just kidding. I'm teasing. But not.

Host [00:03:28] But, Amy, you are a licensed marriage and family therapist.

Guest 2 [00:03:32] And a sex therapist.

Host [00:03:33] And a sex therapist. Yeah. And you, you're act.

Guest 3 [00:03:36] You.

Host [00:03:37] I mean, I know I referred. I referred a ton of people to you back in the day.

Guest 2 [00:03:41] Yeah.

Host [00:03:42] And do you take clients now?

Guest 2 [00:03:44] Now I'm on a little bit of a break as I redefine what life is going to be next. But I did practice therapy for 15 years in Redmond and I saw lots of any pretty much category of Mormon person. You could say that I definitely saw them.

Host [00:04:02] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:04:03] In the whole range of Mormonism. Ex Mormons.

Host [00:04:06] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:04:06] Post Mormons, progressive Mormons, TBM Mormons, all the Mormons.

Host [00:04:12] And I never.

Guest 3 [00:04:13] All of them.

Guest 2 [00:04:14] I love them all. I'm here for them all.

Host [00:04:15] And I never hesitated to refer to you because you are super wise. Thank you. Good hearted. And your dad's been on Mormon stories.

Guest 2 [00:04:22] My dad has been on Mormon stories

Host [00:04:23] way back in the day.

Guest 2 [00:04:24] Yeah. Yeah. So I liberal. I grew up with liberal progressive Mormon parents, Democrats here in Utah, so I don't have the typical upbringing necessarily.

Host [00:04:36] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:04:36] Yeah.

Host [00:04:37] Well, thanks for joining us, Andy.

Guest 3 [00:04:38] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:04:38] I'm so excited.

Host [00:04:38] So maybe we can have you come back every once in a while.

Guest [00:04:41] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:04:42] I feel fire in my heart about this topic. So.

Host [00:04:44] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:04:44] Yeah. And I'm live and unedited, which. Hold on tight, everybody. I don't know. I'm not used to being in the face of vulnerability this way, you know,

Host [00:04:52] 13 to R rating just automatically with Amy here.

Guest 2 [00:04:56] I know on Wordless, which I am a huge fan of, our podcast, I had much more edited Amy, which was felt safe to me.

Host [00:05:05] You're like, what if I say an F bomb? What if I drop enough?

Guest 2 [00:05:08] What if I, like, talk crap about somebody and it's on live air? You know?

Host [00:05:12] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:05:13] How could I live with myself? So anyway, I'm excited, but, you know, kind of nervous too.

Reflecting on a Turbulent Year Since the Hearing

Host [00:05:18] All right, well, we're happy.

Guest [00:05:19] This is why I wanted her here. This energy is why I wanted her here. Every time people ask me about, so

Guest 2 [00:05:27] how are you doing?

Guest [00:05:28] I'm like, I think I'm good. Then Amy will ask me, how are you doing? I'm like, I think I'm okay. And she's like, well, are you this

Guest 3 [00:05:38] and this and this?

Guest 2 [00:05:39] And I'm like, I want to know, how are you? That's right. That's right. Amy. I know I already started to get teary when you started talking about last year this time, because just, like, let's take a moment. That was grief on the biggest level in the Mormon story. And so I just want to say that I feel mostly grief on this day because it was really sad what happened to you, and it was patriarchal abuse to the deepest level, and that's probably what gets me fired up.

Host [00:06:05] So it was. It was a collective trauma.

Guest 2 [00:06:08] Collective trauma.

Host [00:06:09] It was trauma for you. Trauma, personal family team trauma and trauma for our community.

Guest [00:06:14] I would agree with that. I would agree with that. And it's interesting this year, because yesterday was Easter, and that was the day I received the letter. So this year, with Easter being one day and then the next day being the day that, you know, was the disciplinary council. Yeah, it was just two interesting anniversaries back to back.

Host [00:06:44] Yeah. So.

Guest [00:06:46] And I, you know, overall, by the way, before we get into crime mode, which I'm fine with.

Host [00:06:53] Already there.

Guest [00:06:54] Already there. I am doing so much better. Like, so much better. This, I would say, especially from the new year on, from January on, I've been just really doing so much better at the same time, as, you know, we know in therapy fields, we talk a lot about anniversaries that, you know, they can bring on certain emotions, certain ideas, certain remembrances. And we talk to our clients about that all the time. You know, like, what's the season going to bring? Right? What? How are you preparing for that?

Guest 2 [00:07:31] Our bodies remember.

Guest [00:07:32] Our bodies remember. Our brains remember. Our feelings, our hearts remember. And so I've been kind of plugging along, kind of like, okay, yeah, you know, I got to get ready for that. And I'm sure something will come up. And for the most part, I have felt pretty okay, but. But now it's there. I mean, it's there. And it's interesting several things, because I wasn't planning necessarily to go back to Kansas anytime soon, but I do have a son who attends college in Kansas. And so for our spring break, which also happened in April, which isn't very typical, usually spring breaks happen in March. So for our spring break, we. Part of our spring break, we went back to Kansas for a few days to watch him compete, because he's on the track team at Emporia State. So we watched him compete. And so there I was, and it was in the same city, you know, where we were. And so I. And yeah, so it was. It was very interesting to be back in that same area, I bet. And I saw the keeper of the planes and. Which is where we gathered, if you remember. And so I. It was really, really windy and cold, so I didn't get out. I thought I might get out and walk around the grounds, but it was really cold that day. So I just kind of gave him a friendly salute and kind of drove around and tried to honor that space again a year later and honor myself good in that process.

Guest 2 [00:09:10] Good.

Guest [00:09:10] And then here are these days, back to back.

Guest 2 [00:09:13] Yeah. And then doing this.

Guest [00:09:14] And then here we are.

Guest 2 [00:09:15] This is appropriate. This needed to happen.

Guest [00:09:17] It is.

Guest 2 [00:09:18] The universe is aligned. It's very happy with us right now. Like, it was good. It was good to have this ritual of this.

Guest 3 [00:09:25] Right.

Guest 2 [00:09:25] Because it's. I think it's important to realize, like, wow, a lot has changed in a year for you. Right. And that was big impact on your timeline of your life.

Guest [00:09:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a big. It was a bit. It was a big year. It was a lot that happened. It was a lot of things that I didn't necessarily foresee. You know, I think that you can prepare for certain things. You know, I think I've told a lot of people that I was prepared to be disciplined or potentially face discipline all the way back when I wrote that first kind of controversial blog about Mastermind.

Guest 2 [00:10:03] We remember the blog. We remember the blog. It was a fun one.

Host [00:10:07] The blog heard round the world.

Guest 2 [00:10:08] It was. My husband always teases that. It's like every 13 and 14 year old boy in the Mormon world was like, thank you, Natasha, for writing the blog post that says you're okay to masturbate. It was awesome.

Guest [00:10:23] Yeah. That was a long time ago.

Guest 2 [00:10:24] I know.

Guest [00:10:25] Did I write that?

Guest 2 [00:10:26] I know, but think of the impact that you've made on Mormon sexuality with. With being so brave. And I'll get into this later. But you have been brave, Natasha. Braver than me. Right. And I mean it. Like, you have. You were brave. You're the. The louder older sister that was cranky about what we all were seeing. And I won't get started yet, but that. But that's. It's. It's been so brave. Your career has been so brave.

Guest [00:10:50] Thank you. Yeah, so I thought I was prepared back then, you know, to. And I remember sitting on that blog for a few days after I had written it because I was worried, you

Host [00:11:02] know, is this the one that's called my official stance on masturbation?

Guest 2 [00:11:06] It Is that one.

Host [00:11:07] So that's. I've got a date. August 6, 2012.

Guest 2 [00:11:11] 2012.

Host [00:11:12] That sound right?

Guest 2 [00:11:14] Yes, that does.

Host [00:11:15] We'll put that. We'll put that in the show. Okay.

Guest [00:11:17] That's almost 10 years.

Guest 2 [00:11:18] I know, right? I was watching you back then,

Guest [00:11:23] and I was. I was really in. I mean, I was active.

Host [00:11:26] Yeah.

Guest [00:11:26] And I was, you know, I consider myself a believing member. And I was. Yeah. So that was scary. That was scary to post that. I felt it was the first time I was posting something that really probably did contradict, you know, the leaders, which is one of the things that, of course, they called me out for.

Guest 2 [00:11:46] I know. But also, Natasha, you knew it was truth for you. You know, deep inside yourself, the words that you wrote in that blog in 2012.

Guest [00:11:55] Oh, yeah.

Guest 2 [00:11:56] Were true to the deepest part of your soul from having sat with so many Mormon people.

Guest [00:12:01] Well, and that's what drove me to write it.

Guest 2 [00:12:03] I know, right.

Guest [00:12:04] Because I was so. Well, one, angry and two, just devastated. And I think. I mean, I remember still the adolescent client that came into my office that. That drove me kind of past the edge, you know, of saying, that's it. I can't stand by one more. One more case. You know, it was like. Wasn't my first client that had presented the same similar way, but it was like the last one where I was going to be silent and say, this is. We can't do. We can't continue this.

Guest 2 [00:12:39] And I was out there just cheering like, yes, she's unafraid and she's gonna publish this. And you did.

Guest 3 [00:12:46] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:12:47] I just want to say, like, 2012, Amy was really cheering for more the Mormon feminist history around sexuality too. Right. That voice has just been squashed so much. And you were so brave in the fear. It's. It's afraid to go up against the patriarchy. Doesn't matter what organization it is. Right. And I watched you as a therapist, you know, I was a therapist. I was a Mormon therapist. Seen lots of Mormon people. And seeing you be so brave was so inspiring for me, you know.

Guest [00:13:18] Well, thank you.

Guest 2 [00:13:19] That's why I call you my sex therapy auntie.

Guest [00:13:21] Oh, thank you.

Guest 2 [00:13:24] Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [00:13:25] And so I thought I was prepared.

Guest 2 [00:13:27] Yeah.

Guest [00:13:28] I thought, well, I'm probably going to get called in. Somebody's probably gonna be upset that I wrote this. I'm probably gonna be. I do, you know, try to explain why I wrote it. I'm probably gonna have to come up with reasons why I wrote it.

Guest 2 [00:13:41] Evidence.

Guest [00:13:42] To say evidence.

Host [00:13:43] Right.

Guest [00:13:44] Which I had prepared all of that. And Then nothing happened. Right? Nothing happened. Well, that's not true. It's not true that nothing happened. But nothing happened directly with me.

Guest 2 [00:13:56] Okay?

Guest [00:13:56] Nobody talked to me directly about it.

Guest 2 [00:13:59] No leader came to you to say, let's have a sit down about this blog? No. None.

Guest [00:14:04] Okay. No. But they did stop referring to me. LDS Family Services.

Host [00:14:09] Oh, yeah.

Guest [00:14:10] The stakes. And the wards locally stopped paying for services that they had been paying for.

Guest 2 [00:14:16] You became trouble.

Guest [00:14:17] I knew that something had happened.

Guest 2 [00:14:20] You could feel it in the. The energy of. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Guest [00:14:24] But nobody talked to me directly.

Guest 2 [00:14:26] Okay.

Host [00:14:27] Yeah. And. And really quickly, let me just. Let me just introduce Jen, make sure everyone knows. Hey, Jen.

Guest [00:14:32] Jen.

Host [00:14:33] I didn't get a chance.

Guest 3 [00:14:34] Hi, everyone.

Host [00:14:34] Thanks for joining us, Jen. It's so great to have you as well. I don't mean to just lump that in, but I wanted to make sure. All right, Jen, you jump in anytime, all right?

Guest 3 [00:14:44] Yep.

Host [00:14:44] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:14:45] So.

Host [00:14:45] Yeah. So. So like the, the Internet blogging world, Mormon blogging world comes up in 2004. Podcasts started in 2005, and then you start blogging as the Mormon therapist. This is just a little bit of a recap for people that are new. I mean, tons of our listeners maybe don't even know who you are, believe it or not, or are so new out of the. The Mormon bubble that they don't even know what happened last year, honestly. And then we have a ton of listeners that aren't Mormon. So we'll do a brief recap. So, like Mormon blogs and podcasts start emerging. Mormon social media starts emerging. You're this professional marriage and family therapist living in Wichita with a Mormon background, and you start blogging about. You're the first that I knew of Mormon therapists. This is before I was even contemplating a PhD myself. You were. You were blogging about Mormon mental health.

Guest 2 [00:15:45] You were working. Yes.

Host [00:15:46] Do you remember when you started your blog? What year about that was?

Guest [00:15:50] We moved to Wichita about 2008, and I think I pretty much started pretty much right away, maybe that fall. So either 2008 or 2009 were my first blogs, because of course, I mean, what happens when a Mormon wife therapist moves in 2008 mean. Which I'm doing because I'm following my husband's career at that point. Right. So I lost my entire practice that I had built up, you know, and this is prior to telehealth and prior to all those things that we were. We didn't do video therapy and all that before.

Guest 2 [00:16:25] It was a different world back then.

Guest [00:16:26] It's a different world. So I moved, and I didn't have anything to do, you know, until I started recapturing, you know, kind of a clientele. So I thought, well, I'll write. And I had. I got this idea kind of like a. I'll do it like a Dear Abby for Mormons. Right. And I'll do it from, like, a therapeutic perspective. And so you can write in about parenting questions or marital questions or relational questions, or what do I do when I have anxiety, panic attacks or whatever. Well, nobody wrote in about those things. Hardly everybody started writing in about sexual questions, because what better way to be able to ask a question anonymously and what so many people were really worried about and wondering about than sexuality?

Host [00:17:14] And you didn't have your sex certification at this point, right? Yeah. And I. Now that I'm. Now that I'm remembering, I was in, like, my first or second year of my Ph.D. by that point, or had applied. But I think I heard you first on John Larson's Mormon Expression. Is that podcast?

Guest [00:17:30] Is that.

Host [00:17:30] Is that one of the ways that I heard about you?

Guest [00:17:32] Well, I think you had heard about me before then, because you and John Larson reached out to me at the same time. And because you were both John's, I had no idea who I was actually dealing with. In fact, I thought John Larson was you because somebody had told me about you and my ward, and. And then you. And then you reached out to me, and I was like, oh, I thought I already did this, but, oh, there's another.

Guest 2 [00:17:55] Yeah, it was a fun time in Mormonism.

Guest [00:17:58] It was when we didn't know anything about anybody at that time.

Host [00:18:00] Yeah, we're all just trying to figure out how to make a difference in this space. So you start blogging about mental health and sexuality, remind us why you felt so strongly about masturbation. Like, that was kind of one of the. That was like your thunderbolt, your lightning bolt was like that masturbation post that we just got done talking about. But, like, what was it that made you feel so strongly about that topic, specifically? Because that's a big taboo to take on right from the start, almost.

Writing About Sexual Health in Mormon Spaces

Guest [00:18:30] Right.

Guest 2 [00:18:31] Coming out swinging.

Guest [00:18:33] Well, I mean, there's probably a personal component to it. I mean, I was a person who masturbated from as long as I can remember. So I remember as a toddler, as. I mean, as long as I can remember, I was masturbating, but never quite knew if that was okay or not. Kind of, you know, we didn't get quite as directive of messaging, at least back then in Young women's, as I think the young men were getting. But I kind of got an understanding that something wasn't okay.

Host [00:19:04] Something.

Guest [00:19:04] So I wasn't sure if what I was doing was okay or not. But I remember writing a paper about this at BYU for a psych English class. I had, like, how to write about how to write psychology papers and having to go to the. This was back when, again, we can't research things very much online. I had to go and ask for specific books at the library. And I'll never forget the poor guy's face. He's looking at the books that I wanted because they were in the restricted area of the library. And it was in those. In that research that I did that I found out that, oh, it's actually really normal for toddlers and for young children to masturbate. And this is actually when I found out too, that, you know, in utero, you know, it. The. The fetus is, you know, can touch itself. So anyway, so I wrote up that paper and, you know, was. Was kind of embarrassed to present it because I had to present it in the whole. In front of the whole class, but I did. So it was important enough for me to normalize it for myself. And then. But then I didn't really think about it again. And then as I was working with people through my practice.

Host [00:20:15] Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. Can I pause?

Guest [00:20:17] Yeah.

Host [00:20:18] Not to interrupt. I don't want to reinforce the patriarchy here, but one of one of my favorite Mormon stories episodes is where you talk about your relationship with Joe when you were in high school and now you had this beautiful sexual relationship that was completely forbidden by Mormon standards but powerful and beautiful for you. And then you end up feeling all that shame about it, leaving Joe, going to byu, and, and you know, and you talk in your interview about even your BYU experiences. Did you talk about getting expelled from byu? Like that was all wound up in.

Guest 3 [00:20:57] Oh, yeah.

Host [00:20:58] In your history. And we'll. We' refer to that episode in the show notes because everyone's got to go watch and listen to that.

Guest [00:21:05] Well, thank you. Yeah. So I have my own very deep sexual shame story. Right. As far as my Mormon upbringing. As many people do. As many people.

Guest 2 [00:21:16] Many of our clients do, too.

Guest [00:21:19] As many of our clients do.

Host [00:21:21] So it was personal for you.

Guest [00:21:22] Yes.

Guest 2 [00:21:22] But you have to do your own work in order to show up well. Right. So that is part of. I think your process of, like, being a really healthy therapist is like being able to know, okay, this is where my stuff is. And then this is the people I'm serving as my clientele. Right. So you have that cultural competency, really. You have a pulse on it in a way that other therapists and clinicians don't.

Guest [00:21:45] Right, well, thank you. Yeah, so, yeah, so I. So I start getting a lot of, you know. Well, I started actually my career in like a methadone clinic. So like two years I just kind of did substance abuse work, but then I went to private practice because when I started having my kiddos and things like that, and so I kind of pulled back from full time practice and that's when I started really seeing Mormons for the most part. Like, people in my wards knew that I was a therapist and so they're the ones that would kind of come. And this is when I started seeing kind of the beginnings of all the sexual shame stories. Whether it was, you know, the client who was gay or the mix of orientation couple, or the missionary who couldn't go on his mission because he kept confessing about masturbating or the parents going

Guest 2 [00:22:37] through their turmoil of their queer kid, you know, like every possible situation. I know that you've also seen that.

Guest [00:22:44] Yeah, all the things, you know, the couple who have only had sex with each other, but it happened two weeks before their temple marriage. And three years later they're still kind of struggling in their own marriage because

Guest 2 [00:22:56] of that shame pornography of dynamics that come up constantly. And in Mormon couplehood, all of these

Guest [00:23:04] things were coming up and I was starting to, you know, this is like late, I don't know, late 90s, early 2000s, I wasn't finding a whole lot of information about masturbation. The standards of youth had kind of, I think, taken the word out. Granted, they had done other things that made it maybe worse, but at least the word was no longer in there. I had found President Packer's little factory talk, which again isn't great, but in there it kind of demotes masturbation from a full blown sin to a transgression. Nobody was really talking about sex a whole lot back then because this is pre Prop 8. This is pre kind of the craze that we went into as far as going against gay sexuality. And so we weren't really. And it was pre porn on the Internet, because this is pre Internet.

Guest 2 [00:24:08] It was.

Guest [00:24:09] So we weren't really talking about sex a whole lot. And so I started.

Host [00:24:13] And I would have been afraid to say the word masturbation on Mormon stories before you. You would have been the only reason I would have felt comfortable even bringing that word saying that word. Right.

Guest 2 [00:24:25] So, like, say it all together three times.

Guest [00:24:29] Well, and I will say, on our first interview, you did ask me about it, and I was not honest with you. Oh, yeah. The first time around, I. This was prior to. To me writing that, because why were you.

Guest 2 [00:24:41] What. What were you afraid?

Guest [00:24:43] Sure.

Guest 2 [00:24:44] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:44] I had not written that blog before. I didn't want to. And it wasn't just fear of discipline. It was also fear of. Of, like, going too far, too strong with people. And then in a way, like, people saying, well, then I'm discrediting you.

Guest 2 [00:25:04] Right.

Guest [00:25:05] I'm not going to trust you. I'm not gonna bring my kids to you. I'm not gonna come to you as a therapist if you have these positions, and I can't trust you. Right. So it's. It's also, like, I want people to be able to trust me and to not, because I have some more progressive ideas, to then say, well, then we're not gonna even try. Give you a try.

Guest 2 [00:25:25] Yeah. You didn't want to push people away, to not be able to, like, listen to what your words were because you were saying important things.

Guest [00:25:30] Right. And I have a lot of other things that can be helpful, even if we don't necessarily agree on that, you know, so it was a lot of things. It was a lot of complicated things. But you did ask me about it, and I think I gave kind of a floofy answer, like, well, you know, I'm still thinking about that, and my position's on it. And. And maybe I did say something like, Packer did call it a transgression versus a sin or. I don't know. I. I may have said something like that.

Guest 2 [00:25:55] What year was that?

Guest [00:25:56] This was a long time ago.

Host [00:25:57] But let's just. It would have been terrifying for us to be talking about this publicly, both because of the shame and the stigma, but also the fear. The fear. I mean, we all knew about the September 6th and the excommunications, and to talk openly about these third railings, the

Guest 2 [00:26:14] impact of the 90s were definitely still felt through the time. And that's why I say, wasn't this a fun time in Mormon history? All the blogs popping up.

Guest 3 [00:26:23] Right.

Guest 2 [00:26:24] We had all of those. I'm just going to talk for a second. The. So many Mormon blogger women. Okay, CJ not the fat rat.

Mormon Female Sexuality and Religious Shame

Host [00:26:33] Feminist Mormon housewives.

Guest 2 [00:26:35] Feminist Mormon housewives. Like, all of these were, like, bubbling up, and it was like this, like, revival of, like, Mormon feminism was coming back hot with all the women talking and rising up and. But. But still, we were impacted by the 90s, right. Where we were still like, you know, like my mom's friends were getting excommunicated. And I saw that when I was in my teen years. Right. So that impacted me. So all of a sudden, JFF's on your. Natasha's on Mormon stories first. But so tell me, what was the year that Natasha first came on? Did you have that pulled up?

Host [00:27:07] I'd have to Google that.

Guest 2 [00:27:07] Okay. It doesn't matter.

Guest [00:27:09] Regardless, probably 2009, 2010 somewhere.

Guest 2 [00:27:12] Okay. So I was done with my grad school. No one's talking about sex, really. But guess who is. Mormon stories, My aunties Natasha and JFF Baby. Jennifer Finlayson, 5 For those that don't know who that is. These strong, bold, brave women talking about stuff, making me excited to think, oh, people are saying the things that I think and feel and agree with and they have a platform and they're talking and they're not getting excommunicated. Right. I was in a really place of hope during those years. Yeah, I was in a place of hope. They hadn't excommunicated you yet. Kate Kelly hadn't been excommunicated yet. Right. So we were in a little bit of this pioneering world. Anyway, that's all I have to say.

Guest [00:27:57] Like it was.

Host [00:27:58] Okay, well, and I remember the answer is 2010. I interviewed you in 2010. July of 2010.

Guest 2 [00:28:03] Yeah.

Guest [00:28:05] Well, and I remember Jennifer Finlayson, Fife, coming on my podcast, Mormon Mental Health.

Guest 2 [00:28:09] Yes. And talking about her dissertation.

Guest [00:28:12] And we spoke about her dissertation, Mormon Female Sexuality. And her and I danced the masturbation dance.

Guest 2 [00:28:20] And I loved your dance together. And I could see what you were doing.

Guest [00:28:24] Cause we were trying to feel each other out. I was trying to feel her out.

Guest 2 [00:28:28] It's the Mormon flirt game. It is.

Guest [00:28:30] I won't speak for her, but I was trying to figure out, you know, where do you stand on this and are you okay or not? And we talked about it. I don't know that we said the word masturbation, but all this, like, self pleasuring and how to help couples.

Guest 2 [00:28:45] I listened to it multiple times. Multiple times. Because it was the niche for me hearing people talk about exactly what we. Exactly what we were facing with our clients. I was so proud of you too. Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [00:29:01] So really from the get go, John, Masturbation started coming up in my practice as soon as I started working with LDS people. And I wasn't just working with LDS people either. I mean, as soon as I moved to Wichita, I was working with a lot of born again Christians and evangelicals and other, you know, religious denominations. And when I would try to do marriage counseling and, you know, the. The idea of masturbation, especially for like, a lot of the Catholic Hispanic people that I was working with, that was really uncomfortable for them to hear me talking about that as an option. Yeah. So it became something that I felt like here I had done this research back at byu. I knew it was fairly normal. I knew the pediatric, American Pediatric Association's position on it. I didn't see a whole lot of Mormon emphasis on it. So I felt like this is probably one of those things that we don't care about too much anymore. Kind of like the oral sex letter. Oh, yeah, right. Like a lot of people still think oral sex is bad, but nobody really talks about it. Nobody tells you it's okay to have oral sex. But because that letter, that happened 20, 30, 40 years ago, some people are still under that impression. So I just started talking to people

Guest 2 [00:30:22] and stake presidents still sometimes give advice specifically about oral sex to.

Guest [00:30:26] That is incorrect.

Guest 2 [00:30:27] That's incorrect.

Guest [00:30:27] Right. So I just started saying, you know what? I don't see too much about this. I think we know through science and through kind of sexual education that this is pretty normative behavior. Let's just, you know, I would just try to normalize it with my clients. And I. And then I did this blog.

Guest 3 [00:30:45] Yeah.

Guest [00:30:45] Okay. Well, so pretty quickly after that, after my blog, which was 2012. So by this time, we are starting to see Prop 8. We're starting to see some of the pornography panic. Right? The porn panic. We're starting to see a lot of the addiction language. And I think it's Ted Callister gives the infamous talk at BYU Idaho, where he calls it self abuse, self abuse abuse again. And I watched that and I was like, are you freaking kidding me? Like, it's one thing to say it's a sin, it's a whole another thing to conflate this with. We are using that clinical term for something very serious. Yes, right.

Guest 2 [00:31:35] It is a. That abuse word. You say it, it has power. When you really say that is abusive. I choose those words wisely when I say those words.

Guest 3 [00:31:45] Right.

Guest 2 [00:31:45] And so for it to be self abuse still in the 2010s at this point.

Guest [00:31:50] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 2 [00:31:51] They don't. It's the. What it reflects to me is the lack of pulse on really what's going on with sexuality with Mormon people.

Guest [00:31:59] And it reflects the lack of. I mean, really, it reflects ignorance.

Guest 2 [00:32:03] Yeah.

Guest [00:32:03] In regards to clinical matters.

Guest 2 [00:32:05] Right.

Guest [00:32:05] And by this time I am getting my sexual certification. I forget when I was completed with it, but if I wasn't completed with it, I was definitely in the middle of it. So I was just so concerned that this was the message that our young adults, our young impressionable adults at Ricks College, no less, or BYU Idaho maybe it was already by then were getting this message. And then there was also this kind of idea that you should turn your roommates in if you knew that they were doing this. Again, the shame and the monitoring of normal human behavior. So I just went kind of berserky over that. Yeah, I wrote letters. I wrote letters in. I.

Guest 3 [00:32:51] Who was, who was it who gave that talk?

Guest [00:32:53] Ted Callister. And, and I wrote in and I, and he wasn't, he wasn't. I forget what position he had at the time, but I wrote this flaming light letter saying this is completely clinically, you know, inaccurate and you have to be careful. I wrote it into the,

Host [00:33:14] the Lord's. The Lord's standard of morality by Tad Callister, possibly.

Guest 2 [00:33:20] What year was that?

Host [00:33:21] 2014.

Guest [00:33:22] Possibly.

Guest 2 [00:33:23] Yeah, that was probably the time.

Guest [00:33:24] And he talked about the tentacles of the octopus, like all this like exaggerated language.

Guest 2 [00:33:32] It's just the disaster mod, right. It's a disaster model of sexuality and sex education. And our sexuality is such a beautiful core part of our humanity. So when that's the voice that comes in about something that's so developmentally natural for humans to experience, but that becomes the voice of God. Right. In people's head. And that sexual shame is literally the grief of my career. Sitting with people in that sexual shame is the grief of my career.

Guest [00:34:03] Amen.

Guest 2 [00:34:04] And so it matters, right? It matters. And if, when you're, when you're serving a people that you care deeply about and you want health for, and the fire of sexual health is a thing that I think both you and I share, Natasha, so deeply because it's out of love. It's because we, we care about people being healthy and well and we realize the sexual component of a person is such an important piece of them. So then to feel that you are self abusing yourself, it creates some very interesting psychology in people. It's heartbreaking.

Guest [00:34:39] And especially when we know that specifically, I mean we just know that this is part of normal human development. Right. And he should not be interfering with normal human development. But even for specific disorders like an orgasmia or premature ejaculation or, I mean they're specific, specific things that actually masturbation is very helpful for, very helpful for

Guest 2 [00:35:01] learning techniques you can't do like expressing it to a partner, because you don't even know your own technique to figure out how to express that. That to someone. So I know we could probably talk for the whole podcast about masturbation. Wow. Welcome to the podcast, everyone.

Guest [00:35:19] Exactly. So I was just livid. I had just been. I had recently been invited to the public relations office of the church because this was also when Mitt Romney was running or getting ready to run for president. And so they were doing. They were inviting kind of like people as women specifically to come into panels.

Host [00:35:46] Influencers.

Guest [00:35:48] Yeah. To see what their opinions were about. Kind of the pulse, okay. Of what was happening in Mormon land. But also I realized by the end of the meeting, seeing if we would be the type of people they would want to refer media to in order to get kind of a good message of Mormonism out there, in particular with women. Right. Because I think they were worried that Mitt Romney was going to run as president and he comes from a church that is very patriarchal and doesn't, you know, would have a lot of critique about how it's complicated history with women,

Guest 2 [00:36:25] I guess we should say complicated.

Guest [00:36:26] That was my understanding. So I had just been to that. So I felt like I knew people in the PR department. Then Ted Callister writes this letter. So I wrote all these people that I had just interacted with and said, this is clinically inaccurate. Like, this is embarrassing. Like, you cannot have, you know, people. He wasn't an apostle at the time or he wasn't even like in the 70s or anything. And then like at the next general conference, he gets promoted. Okay, he got promoted to. He is now, I think, a member of the 70s or something like that. And so I was like, geez, am I, am I making things worse by complaining so that whatever I complain about, they're going to actually do the opposite to you.

Host [00:37:10] An expert doesn't like this guy. Let's promote him.

Guest [00:37:16] I was so frustrated.

Building a Public Voice in the Mormon Community

Host [00:37:18] Okay. And so you, you enter into this Mormon space with this huge lightning bolt, blogging and podcasting about sexual health, sexual shame, mental health. And we, we start partnering a lot. We start doing a lot of work together. You start building a practice. You, you not only get known throughout the, the Kansas, the state of Kansas as a go to mental health professional within Mormonism, but you start doing work outside of Kansas as the church doesn't like your, some of your public positions. I think you were saying that many of the bishops and stake presidents start recommending you less, but then that, that loss maybe gets replaced by your growing Prominence and in the broader Internet world of Mormonism.

Guest [00:38:11] Correct.

Host [00:38:12] And you start doing more coaching. Is that. Is that fair to say?

Guest [00:38:15] Yes.

Guest 2 [00:38:15] And your.

Host [00:38:16] And your influence starts really growing. All.

Guest [00:38:18] You invited me to, you know, to host a podcast for Open Stories Foundation. So the Mormon mental health podcast is something you invited me to do.

Guest 2 [00:38:27] The Mormon Mental Health Association. It's not just with Mormons. Like, Natasha also has, like, a lot of clout outside of Mormonism too. So with asec, she's really respected. I know in Kansas, she was. I always. The American association for Sex Educators, Therapists and Counselors. Yes, I got it right. Okay. It's a big one. But it's this. It's basically the main certifying board for sex therapists in America, and Natasha presents. And she has her own really powerful presence in that space too, so.

Guest [00:38:58] And I had been involved in amft, which is my parent organization, the American association for Marriage and Family Therapists. I'd always been. I mean, I was the.

Guest 2 [00:39:07] The.

Guest [00:39:07] The president of AMFT for the Kansas State chapter.

Guest 2 [00:39:11] These are big deals. These are, you know, important positions.

Guest [00:39:14] I'm very involved in my profession.

Guest 2 [00:39:16] Yes, deeply. And she's supervising people at this point too, right? You start supervising.

Guest [00:39:22] Yep.

Host [00:39:23] Yeah. And so then, like, you know, the excommunications start happening. There's Kate Kelly, then there's me, Jeremy Runnels, lots of others. But, you know, we get to 2020, 2021, and you had. You had avoided really getting into waiting into truth claim stuff. You had avoided, like, explicitly criticizing the brethren for the most part. But maybe. Maybe your post got a little bit more spicy in that year prior. Is that fair to say? Not fair to say. How do you want to characterize that?

Guest [00:40:01] I mean, I did. I did call out two people in particular. I did call out President Oaks for his, I feel ridiculous statements on not apologizing. I mean, that's like primary 101, like Jesus 101.

Guest 2 [00:40:17] Yeah.

Guest [00:40:18] And so I just don't feel like our leaders should be, you know, or our church should be separate from any other expectation. And. And I don't mind calling their names out. I mean, they're prominent people, and I feel like I've always done that. Yes. In a critical but also fairly loving way. I mean, they call us out all the time. They call us kind of nasty names all the time. And I think they would say they do that in a loving, critical way, so. Right back at you. And. And so I, I did that, and I did write a letter to President Nelson through the Salt Lake Tribune as far as an op ed in regards to his, what we call now the, his sad heaven talk because again, I was incensed at how many people we had to talk through that talk in the two weeks after, specifically adolescents who are now grieving and so just kind of beside themselves in regards to a parent in a mixed faith family situation. So I don't feel like oftentimes these leaders are teaching these principles in sound mental health, you know, trauma informed ways. And absolutely, I'm going to call them out on that. And, and I felt like that letter was respectful and I felt like it was clinically and based on, and sound and. Yeah, so what. Oh, and I made the, and I made the, the term patriarchal prick, which, yeah, I have some language sometimes, but I didn't call anybody that. I've never called any one person a patriarchal prick. So I've never said like, you know, this particular person is that. But that's my, that's my language for basically unrighteous dominion. So anybody who uses unrighteous dominion, which I think we would all agree with, in my words, is a patriarchal prick or acting in a patriarchal prickish way.

Guest 2 [00:42:25] You could probably say way meaner words than patriarchal prick. Just want that to be for the record.

Guest [00:42:31] Well, because sometimes, sometimes, especially depending on who you're working with. Right. And we know this through therapy too. Like if you're working with somebody who uses really crass language who is really work, you know, is really worked up, if you're just very polite and clinical and, you know, super kind of different, you're not going to join with that client. You have to in some ways mirror the people you are with. And so when people are angry and using, you know, you know, swear words or, you know, doing things, you have to kind of join them in that in order to have that therapeutic alliance. So would I use patriarchal prick in every single setting? Of course not. But would I use it in some. Absolutely. And it helps people relax, it helps people have humor, it helps people know that you, you understand what they're get, what they're getting at and their anger. And so there's therapeutic value in that that I think is completely lost on again, the leaders as to why I would use such terminology.

Host [00:43:37] Yeah. And so the build up to your communication, there's at least four kind of indisputable things. One was, there was this huge throbbing abscess of need within Mormonism for professional, competent discussion of mental health and sexuality before you. The second is you stepped in with a sincere Heart and a desire to help fill that need. Kind of. As a Mormon, Dr. Joyce Brothers. That's how I first thought of you is as a. As a Mormon, Ruth Westheimer. You know What I mean? Dr. Ruth Westheimer. We needed that. We needed it.

Guest 2 [00:44:15] We did need it.

Host [00:44:16] We needed it. You stepped in to fill it. You were incredibly successful at helping so many people. You were a pioneer. You were a groundbreaker. You were just fantastic model to other therapists. Role model, professional. Credentialed, helpful. Helpful.

Guest 3 [00:44:35] Certified.

Guest 2 [00:44:36] Tactful, an old sage of wisdom, fountain of knowledge, and articulate ways of being relational with humans.

Host [00:44:46] Yep. And courageous in all the things.

Guest 2 [00:44:48] All the things.

Host [00:44:49] How do you like that, Natasha?

Guest [00:44:50] You're all embarrassing.

Guest 2 [00:44:51] I believe this to the core of my heart about you.

Guest [00:44:54] That's very nice. Thank you.

Host [00:44:56] Yeah. You were just.

Guest [00:44:57] You were doing not to be emotional also. Thank you.

Host [00:45:00] Tell us what you're feeling. We're gonna pause.

Guest 3 [00:45:02] Just.

Guest [00:45:03] It's just very kind.

Guest 2 [00:45:04] Your impact has been amazing, Natasha.

Host [00:45:08] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:45:08] That's why when I saw them burning you down, I was mad as the deepest part of my heart. So angry. It was like that fire heart emoji. It was like, what are they doing to her? Just like, I haven't. And I hadn't been active for years. For years I hadn't been active. But we can get to that later. But you are fantastic. And what happened to you was undeserved and abusive. It was a. When we get into the details of what they did to her.

Host [00:45:36] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:45:37] Sexist, abusive, patriarchal crap that has been happening for so long to women.

Host [00:45:43] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:45:44] And it. What did you call it? You called it like you're calling it something. Your flow. Or you're like. You called it something. You said something like Natasha in. You were. You were really righty and processy during it. Right. Because we are a writing processing people.

Guest [00:45:58] Well, I called it flow.

Guest 2 [00:45:59] The flow.

Guest [00:46:00] John called it manic.

Guest 2 [00:46:03] We'll get. Maybe we can get to that later. But I want to say that that. That feeling that you had is a contagious feeling that I definitely felt. Yeah.

Host [00:46:14] Yeah. So, like, we thought that by 2020, maybe, you know, this had been. You had been with the Open Stories foundation since the beginning.

Guest [00:46:23] Pretty much. Yeah.

Host [00:46:24] It's the.

Guest 2 [00:46:24] Why now? Why now was the big question.

Host [00:46:26] We thought maybe we're past it. Maybe Natasha was safe. She was full and so competent and so professional and so effective.

Guest 2 [00:46:34] Maybe the church is changing.

Host [00:46:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:46:37] Maybe they're. Maybe they're not going to excommunicate women anymore for talking about Things that, that are powerful and important.

Host [00:46:44] Yeah. Yeah. And then you got the letter. So is you're looking back. Let me just ask you, what do you think? What do you think made them send you the letter? What do you think made them pull the trigger when you had managed to survive for so long? It's a great question now, looking back, because you may have more data or you may even have more reflections. What do you think?

Removed from the LDS Therapist Referral List

Guest [00:47:06] I don't have any more data.

Host [00:47:08] Yeah.

Guest [00:47:09] I don't have, I haven't had any other communication with the church, obviously, since they sent me my excommunication letter. I haven't had any communication with the people back in Kansas since that time. So I, I, I really still don't know much more than I would have guessed back then. And my guess still is that my move from Kansas to Utah somehow some spurred something, but then it didn't.

Guest 2 [00:47:39] Transfer your records.

Guest [00:47:41] Yeah. And my guess is that the stake president at the time felt like he had maybe not taken care of business and now I had moved and he wanted to tie up loose strings.

Guest 2 [00:47:57] Can't have those women. Can't have those women.

Guest [00:48:01] He didn't want to have somebody else have to deal with the mess that maybe he should have dealt with. That was always my impression, depression. But that's guessing. That's just me guessing. I have no idea.

Host [00:48:12] Yeah.

Guest [00:48:13] Nobody has ever explained.

Guest 2 [00:48:16] There wasn't like that specific blog post or that specific podcast you did is what got you in trouble.

Guest [00:48:22] No.

Host [00:48:23] Yeah, but the thing that, the thing that always really made me super furious, one of the many things was you were just, you were literally just cleaning up the church's messes. Like you were dedicating your life, saving marriages.

Guest 2 [00:48:36] Yes.

Host [00:48:36] You were preventing bad marriages, helping promote mental health, helping preventing LGBT suicides, you know, swooping in to help mixed orientation marriages that probably never should have been consummated in the first place. You're just like, you're just like inserting yourself into a gazillion trauma, trauma situations to clean up the disaster that was the church's poor approach to mental health.

Guest 2 [00:49:06] And also, you know, being very intentional about our MMHA yearly events where we, she was training therapists to be good, culturally competent therapists around trans issues, queer issues, divorce issues, mixed orientation, mixed faith marriages, any possible thing. We, like Natasha and mmha, was trying so hard to create culturally competent therapists

Host [00:49:32] because there was these decades of the church's unholy relationship with the LDS Family Services, where the church would have all these referral, referral lists of unethical.

Guest 2 [00:49:47] Amcap is another organization for the counselors that are LDs.

Host [00:49:51] So it's like the church. Let's make a list of all the unethical therapists that we can find who ignore their own ethical code and instead, you know, practice orthodox Mormonism in the place of sound, empirical based, evidence based ethical therapy. And that's how we'll funnel. If we're not gonna denounce mental health overall, which is what our history was for decades, let's just condemn psychiatry and psychology as work of the devil. See Bruce. Or McCunkian Mormon Doctrine. If we're not gonna just outright condemn the entire field of mental health as a work of Satan, then let's have this huge, massive list of local unethical mental health practitioners that are going to recommend celibacy to a gay person, that are going to recommend a mixed orientation marriage to a straight woman and a gay man, that are going to tell you when you have depression to just try harder and read the scriptures and believe more in Jesus. That was the whole context that you.

Guest 2 [00:50:55] Yeah. Or to have women tell women not. I got kicked off the LDS referral list in Seattle because I promoted vibrators because I want those Mormon women to have orgasms. And I want the Mormon men and queer people and everybody, all of them ex Mormons, I want everyone having orgasms. Okay?

Host [00:51:16] It's good for men, for their wives.

Guest 2 [00:51:18] It's healthy for people to have orgasms. Right. It's good for. I walked out of orgasm. And if that. And at first it really, like, hurt my heart because I was like, I am culturally competent. And Mormons, they're taking me off the list. But then I was like, you know what? If they're going to kick me off the list because I promote vibrators, then that's fine. I can accept that.

Host [00:51:35] You know, but the point is. Yeah, and the point is you start the Mormon Mental Health association with other volunteers to then train up a legion of competent, yes, Ethical.

Guest 3 [00:51:45] Yes.

Host [00:51:46] Mormon therapists that will treat believing Mormons as ethically as they would treat progressive doubting or post Mormons. Like, yes, such an important contribution to our world.

Guest 2 [00:51:57] Speak to a criticism that the world had about you, Natasha, that was making me very angry because they were trying to say, oh, well, Natasha, you know, promotes people leaving the church. Right.

Host [00:52:09] By the way, you are an active. You were still in, actively attending Mormon woman occasionally your kids were still in the church and you still consider yourself faithful. Sorry, Amy.

Guest 2 [00:52:19] Yeah, no, I, I, I interrupted.

Host [00:52:21] So it's not like you were an apostate it's not like you were an apostate when they came at you. Okay, go ahead.

Guest 2 [00:52:26] Yeah.

Guest [00:52:26] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:52:27] So what I wanted to say, it was that. Okay, let me think. What was I talking about?

Guest [00:52:30] Well, they were. They said that I was trying to lead people.

Guest 2 [00:52:33] Oh, that you were trying to lead people astray. Okay. And the thing is, I received my ASEC supervision, part of my hours with Natasha as my supervisor. Okay. So I wanted to have Natasha help me specifically with my Mormon cases that were more complex than. I couldn't take it to my other supervisors as much because they don't. They weren't as culturally competent. They're not going to be able to help understand how lots of situations. Okay. So I wanted Natasha to be able to help guide me through that. And so I had direct influence and direct supervision from Natasha. So things that people were saying on the Internet that I knew were untrue about you was really frustrating for me because I said, no, Natasha has given me skills to work very well with nuanced Mormon situations like mixed faith, mixed faith marriage, mixed orientation marriage. Things that are so like. I would talk to my other clinician friends and I had one that was so validating to me because she said, amy, I have to be honest with you. The sexual shame clinical cases that come from high demand religions are literally the hardest clinical cases. They are complex, they are hard. There is a lot of complicated dynamics in that sense system that people present on the couch. Right. And I was just like, Natasha would never, ever, ever would tell somebody to leave the church. I know that about you deeply. You would never would recommend that to someone. You never guided me to do that with people. You always. I would say this all the time in therapy because of you people sit down. I know that maybe they're coming in cause one person's leaving the church or whatever, right? And I would say all the time, I have no agenda for your Mormonism. And I need you to know that when you come in here. But because I think that is an ethically sound way to practice. And you taught me that so many times. You've taught me it through MMHA workshops. You taught me it through personal supervision. So when people were saying stuff about you that was clearly untrue, that they didn't know what they were talking about, you better believe I was really pissed at the Internet once you were getting excommunicated. Twitter, I hated you. Hated you, hated you. Progressive Mormons hated you, hated you. Like, I was just like, no one knows what they're talking about. They're all talking nonsense. This is not who Natasha is. This is not, this is not the issue. You're missing the issue.

Host [00:54:50] And how many retreats did we do together where we're counseling mixed faith couples.

Guest 2 [00:54:54] I know.

Host [00:54:55] And getting feedback from the believing spouses.

Guest 2 [00:54:57] Yes, you.

Host [00:54:58] That we were super respectful. That you were super respectful to them, that we helped save their marriage. Like we were keeping people in the church way more than we were keeping people out.

Guest 2 [00:55:07] And the thing is, where else were these couples going to get any help with the real reality of their issues?

Host [00:55:13] Not from the church.

Guest 2 [00:55:14] There's nowhere. I can't go to Sunday school and raise my hand and say anything without feeling like if I'm not in the box that, you know, that I'm not gonna get like that icy chill at church. Right. So it just, it was really frustrating for me.

Guest [00:55:27] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:55:28] And so that was the impact on the therapy community.

Host [00:55:30] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:55:30] Yeah.

Host [00:55:31] And so what does the church unfortunately do to their, their true prophets, the people that help them see the future and start changing? They punish them. And so you get the letter. And so you think it was what, again, if you had to summarize why you think it was cleaning up a mess. But if you had to say what, what was in the heart of the brethren? Let's just say there's some strength in the church members committee and they're like, we gotta, we gotta take Natasha out.

Guest 2 [00:55:59] Finally.

Host [00:56:00] What do you, if you had to speculate and Amy, I'll ask you this too, and Jen, I can ask you, what do you think was in their heart when they said let's. What do you think? If you had to just speculate because that's all we have. What was in their heart, do you think?

The Church Disciplinary Council and Its Motivations

Guest [00:56:12] Yeah, I think that they really thought I was normalizing things that they really saw as sinful, that I was making it okay for people to think masturbation is okay, that, that gay marriage is okay, that we're not going to look at pornography like an addiction, that, you know, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing, some game, you know, because we don't treat any other sin that way really, except for murder, maybe. So can we just look at, you know, like, if you, if that's your value and that's your standard and that's your system, can we look at reduction of behavior as a win instead of this, this all or nothing game that most people fail at with any behavioral change? Right. And so I, I just think that I was normalizing too much. I think that I was using their name Even though they don't like to call it their name anymore. You know, so I was like the Mormon therapist, Mormon Mental Health Association, Mormon mental health podcast, Mormon sex info. Because all of the issues I was talking about were Mormon. Right. So that's how I marketed a lot of these ideas. And I feel like they thought, well, if we keep her in the church, then in some ways we're basically saying that we're, we're putting up with it, we're at some level okay with it.

Host [00:57:36] So what? So do you think in their minds you were teaching false doctrine by normalizing things that they had made that they had condemned as sinful? Do you think in their minds you were an apostate?

Guest [00:57:50] Sort of, yes. I'm guessing that's what they thought. Right. And it was interesting because I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say who, at least not maybe until they're dead, but I was referred to an emeritus status person and he was very kind and you know, and spoke to me about, you know, well, I'll look into your stuff, sister, you know, help her and see what I can do, if anything type of thing. And called me two days and I, and I was like, well, he's going to look into my stuff and he's going to have a fit. I knew that, I mean, here's this 80 some year old man, I knew he was going to look into my stuff. And sure enough he comes back and he basically says something like, well, I did not feel the spirit when I was looking at your materials and I

Guest 2 [00:58:40] didn't know the story.

Guest [00:58:41] And at the same time he proceeded to ask me, but I would really like to know how, what is the question? What is the question how you, you know, make sense about this masturbation thing being normal. And so I gave him my whole clinical.

Host [00:59:03] So you wanted to educate, download on that.

Guest [00:59:05] I gave this wonderful 80 plus year old person my take on that. He goes, well, I really appreciate you taking the time for that. That's very interesting. And that was the end of that call. And that was my last hope for potentially having the disciplinary council stopped.

Host [00:59:21] Yeah. Anything you want to add? I mean there is the whole, you're a woman telling the patriarchy what they should be doing better.

Guest 2 [00:59:30] I, I, after the Me Too movement, I was like, what are they trying to get into? Right? Because I don't know why, I don't know why they decided. Then like again, I think we're all in the question, why now? Because you had done other things that would have qualified you possibly to be an apostate. But then in 2020, I just don't know why then. And I don't know if it's this, like, clamping down that we're seeing happening a little bit more. And I don't know if maybe Natasha was kind of at the beginning of that, right? I think if we look through the history of, like, Mormon women kind of, like popping up and being loud and making noise, right? I saw Sonia Johnson two weeks ago and similar. Similar things that she expressed. I was like, where is Natasha? Natasha needs to be here too. Because I was like, when you get excommunicated to this, there's this, like, group of matriarchy excommunicated women that come and, like, massage your feet and tell you everything's gonna be okay. And apparently that's not a thing. But if I could start one, I would. Any future woman that gets excommunicating, you have my word, I will come and massage you and do like a meditation with you and it will get through it.

Host [01:00:42] But maybe some plant based medicine.

Guest 2 [01:00:46] We might do some cannabis too. I don't know. Anyway, this is why. How do you do this so unedited and live? I can say anything in the face and I don't know what I'm gonna say either way. My point being, Natasha, the amount of abuse that happened through that just speaks to me of, like, all so many Mormon women stories, right? I grew up in a feminist Mormon home. I tease all the time that I was born into the feminist. The covenant of. Hold on, let me take a deep breath. Now I'm getting excited. I was born into the covenant of Mormon feminism. I was like, I came out of the womb. My mom was a feminist, my dad was a feminist. And then I was exposed to the feminist community my whole life. And the fire and the energy around issues of sexism and patriarchal abuse. I feel like your story is another one in those stories, right? I think about the women that were excommunicated at byu, right? The professors, wasn't there. There's just been so many women excommunicated in Mormonism. And now with kind of the. Kind of the clamping down on the Heavenly mother stuff. I lived a life where I saw my mom wanting things from Mormonism. She wanted to bless her son. She wanted to have way more equality. She wanted to have more women represented and more women showing the spiritual practice of being guides and being influential on Mormon women, right? And I wanted that my whole life. I wanted to see more women leading and more women talking to me and talking to me about my divinity. Right. And you come and you're, like, talking about sexuality and you're lighting women up and you're, like, doing this thing. And I don't think the Mormon men want that. And. And it's not the 90s anymore, but here we are again, where we're hearing messages from conference that is about no more women. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't get loud. You can't get mad. And, you know, and I love all of these hot Instagrammers that are like, so hot. Rosie card. We got. We got some strong, brave women right now. Julie Hanks, she has gotten on fire since you got excommunicated, right?

Host [01:02:54] Yeah. You kind of. I mean, you, like. Jennifer spoke up for you. Okay. Julie Hanks.

Guest 2 [01:03:00] Kristen did a fire one with Doug Fabrizio.

Guest [01:03:03] I love him.

Guest 2 [01:03:03] Doug Fabrizio. Kristen had a fire. Fire. Kristen Hodson, she's also a sex therapist. And the thing is, we have these, like. So I have my aunties, like I was talking about. We've got the jff, the Natasha, and then I have these cousins. Right. Of other sex therapists that are Mormon. Right. And you know, Braxton, there's a supervisee of you and Kristen. And so Jennifer, I think, went on Mormon land after you got excommunicated.

Guest [01:03:30] Yes, she did.

Guest 2 [01:03:31] She got so emotional. It was powerful for me to hear this. Okay, so this week was. That week was intense. And the impact that it had on the therapy community cannot go unnoticed, because here we have someone that has been a brave voice for us, not just for women, but for the mental health of the Mormon people, for the marriages of Mormon people in and out of the church. Okay. And here we see her getting kind of burned at the stake. I'm going to use symbolicness of here's the witch. Right. We're burning the witches again. It felt that way to me. You were speaking truth to what you know is true from what we see see in the Mormon wound every single day.

Host [01:04:17] From a place of expertise and competence.

Guest 2 [01:04:20] Yes, yes. And she's. And so then the question lies. What is she getting excommunicated for what? And so then all the therapists, particularly the sex therapists of the world. I have. I hadn't been active for years, so this wasn't this. I. You know, but it made me afraid in a way that I hadn't felt afraid before. And when Sonia Johnson was talking a few weeks ago about her excommunication, and she was speaking specifically to the fear that is created for Mormon women in this culture. And then you add on for a professional, right? You speaking up and having voice is so brave, right? And I. And that week that it happened, I was like, natasha is getting excommunicated. But I think the same things, and I believe the same things, because we are in the same pain. We have been serving and loving and wanting to heal the same pain. And then to see them just burn you up like that and not even just, like, send you a letter and tell you you're excommunicated. They gave you no voice, Natasha. You worked that whole week to try to have your voice heard. After all the things that you have offered this community, they didn't even listen to you. They wouldn't even listen to you. And it made me so angry. They didn't give you anything to say. You can't have your phone. You can't do this, can't do this. It was just like you were going into this court where you didn't even know the rules. What kind of church is that? Right? And so people would criticize, and here I go getting passionate. How is this live? How do you do this live? Anyway, I was getting passionate because, you know, people would say, well, if you don't wear a suit jacket at the country club, you get kicked out of the country club. And I said, this is a church. This is a church, and you're going to excommunicate her without even letting her say why she wants to keep her membership. That is sexism at the deepest level. That is patriarchal abuse at the deepest level, giving you no voice. So when Sonia Johnson was talking and saying the same thing, I felt that same fire, the same flow, the same mania, whatever you want to call it, that is rooted from the beginning of time of women being abused by the patriarchy. And that is why I was so mad.

Guest [01:06:33] No. And. But it comes from love, Same energy is what I felt that whole week, because, I mean, I was trying to contain it in a professional way, but I felt so helpless, you know, like, I knew that there wasn't really much I could do.

Guest 2 [01:06:47] Yes, I know.

Guest [01:06:48] I knew that there was so much outside of my control.

Host [01:06:50] It was.

Guest [01:06:51] But then that they weren't even following their own rules.

Guest 2 [01:06:54] They were so afraid of you.

Guest [01:06:55] Janice Mangler does such a good job of, like, really reading through all of the, you know, the bishop's handbook and. And making sure she, you know, communicated all that to me. And everybody was, you know, she was helping me do all the research. I couldn't. I didn't have time to do. And we were trying to follow all the rules. And I mean, even things like, you know, I. Even things I said I could do, they said no to, Like, I could ask for the. For the. The 12 to be there. The Council of the 12 to be there.

Guest 2 [01:07:24] The big. The big stake presidency.

Guest [01:07:27] Yeah. The high priest that you can request that. I requested that.

Guest 2 [01:07:32] Women don't get those. We don't get the special.

Guest [01:07:34] They said no to that. Oh, there's just so many things, you know, and. And I. And I could feel it, you know, I could just feel just the being shut down. I could feel it really, from the first time. The stake president. President called me months before that, you know, and asked me, you know, what does your membership mean to you, Natasha? And I was like, my membership means a lot. What do you mean? Why are you asking me that? Because that's when it started, really, was. With that conversation. My bishop was on the line as well. And that's when I asked them. I realized they were calling me to start questioning me. And that's when I said, well, if you're going to question me, I want to be prepared. So if you could write your concerns in a letter, I would appreciate that. And he did. But it was. It was in that moment, with that tone and that. I don't know, that way of saying things. I already knew that I didn't have any control over my own journey.

Guest 2 [01:08:49] I have a question for you.

Host [01:08:50] And in some sense. Sorry. Like, all these excommunications, the decisions made before you ever.

Guest [01:08:54] I figured that. I mean, I knew that. I mean, they're only going to give you 30 minutes. I mean, what's 30 minutes, you know, in the realm of salvation land? I don't know. What's 30 minutes in the realm of all my whole life having been.

Host [01:09:11] Yeah.

Guest [01:09:11] An active member of the church and all the service, I gave me, what's 30 minutes? And that's why I was trying to prepare all these things beforehand, because I was like, well, if you're only gonna give me 30 minutes, which I know is ridiculous as far as me being able to give any type of response, I'm gonna try as much as I can and in two weeks to gather as many thoughts as I can. But I also had to work. I also had to live. I also had to, gosh, be available for my kids. Right. I mean, it's not like I had two weeks to just dedicate solely to this.

Why Stay? Examining the Decision to Fight Excommunication

Guest 2 [01:09:48] Here's a question that I got from so many people. Why does she even care to try to not get excommunicated.

Guest [01:09:56] Yeah. Yeah. That's a complex question. I, I. So many people ask that, you know, why do you want to belong to such an abusive church? You know, why do you want to be part. You know, you're gonna be so glad when you're out. You're gonna be this or that. I think a lot of it just has to do with choice. A lot of it has to do with choice agency. It's. It's. Regardless of whether or not I want to stay or go, I want that decision to be based with me, not with this outer entity that gets to decide for me. And a lot of those decisions are based on. And, you know, and when I talk about these things, I expect many people not to agree with me, which is fine, because these are more spiritual ideas, and people have the right to their own spiritual ideas. So I just want to preface it with that. But for me, Mormonism, I had come up with my. My version of Mormonism that was comfortable, that was healthy, that I could see a positive future. Right. And so what I saw in the way of that was imperfect people. And we have that in the doctrine of Mormonism. Yeah, Right. So, to me, when people act crappy. Well, people have acted crappy in every organization I've been a part of, including church, including my government, including my country, including all kinds of things that I belong to and care deeply about. And so I want to stay and help make that a healthier space. And for me, for me, that worked. I'm not saying that should be everybody's story. And I think for a lot of people, it's actually very unhealthy to stay. So I just want to say that too. But that was another thing that they were grumpy that I said that for some people, it's toxic to stay, especially LGBTQ people. So maybe that's where they were getting the idea that I was saying people

Guest 2 [01:11:59] should leave anyway, which, having sat with enough people that are under the queer umbrella, I come to the same conclusion.

Guest [01:12:09] Yeah, well, if they're gonna beat up people on a regular basis who are lgbtq, that's not my problem that they've done that.

Guest 2 [01:12:16] No. And if they continue to be sexist. Right. And they continue to do things that. It's just like. I'm sorry. That if you continue to do those things and people leave, you can't continue to blame Natasha or blame.

Guest [01:12:26] It's not my fault that the current leadership has chosen the worst of Mormonism to focus on. Yes, that's not my fault.

Guest 2 [01:12:32] Not our fault.

Guest [01:12:33] I would have hoped that. Not that the best of Mormonism is ideal either, but there's so many good things, so many potentially healthier ways that we could have been a church community. Community by now.

Guest 2 [01:12:44] Yes.

Guest [01:12:44] And that's where I was hoping.

Guest 2 [01:12:46] Yes.

Guest [01:12:46] To stay and be a part of that became less and less hopeful over the last decade, especially with the war on LGBTQ folks. But. And then it became almost like, okay, I. I absolutely want to stay, too, because I want my voice to be credible for the parents of LGBTQ plus people, for the minors who can't just leave whenever they want, for the people who still need these kinds of voices to help them feel like there's other perspectives. Because at the end of the day. And this is, of course, where they'll disagree with me, but I feel like I'm just as Mormon as they are. I have just as the right to be here as they do. I don't see their authority as bigger than mine. And in fact, I feel like some of my authority is much bigger than theirs. And they weren't willing to listen to that kind of authority, and they were trying to take away authority of mine that they had no business taking away. And so they don't know how to stay in their lane. And I guess they were grumpy that I kind of bumped up into their lanes, but I guess we're laying.

Guest 2 [01:13:57] But it continues to go back to this. Like, I mean, Maxine Hanks, her book was called Women in Authority, Right? Am I remembering this correctly?

Host [01:14:03] That's right.

Guest [01:14:03] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:14:04] And so I don't know if they love that women.

Guest [01:14:08] Yeah, no, no, they don't. They don't like that. And that is where the patriarchy comes in, and that is where we have a lot of work to do. A lot of work.

Host [01:14:15] Yeah.

Guest [01:14:16] Yeah.

Host [01:14:18] So. So we. I should mention. I just. We'll. We'll add to the show notes. We did two episodes on Mormon stories. We did a pre excommunication episode, and we did a post excommunication episode. And we won't go into the details of everything that happened there just for the sake of time today, but I do think it would be really worthwhile to talk about your reflections on that day and specifically what. How that day has affected you over the past year in your life, in your family and your relationships, because that's one of the most traumatic things I. That was more traumatic than my own excommunication in some ways, and I think it was more traumatic for you than my excommunication was for me. And it was just a really brutal several weeks and maybe it's even been a brutal several months or year. And I just, you know, I. I got used to calling excommunication barbaric or medieval.

Guest 2 [01:15:25] Archaic.

Host [01:15:25] Archaic and inhumane and abusive.

Guest 2 [01:15:28] Yes.

Host [01:15:29] And I would like to give you some space to talk about.

Guest 2 [01:15:32] Yeah.

Host [01:15:32] How that. What its impact and effect has been on you for whatever you're willing to share.

Guest [01:15:38] Well.

Host [01:15:38] And probably a big topic.

Guest [01:15:40] Are you okay with me asking you to follow up with a little bit more thoughts about that? Just yourself, so. Because I. For me. And I will. I will go into what you just asked, but what was it like to be there? Why was it difficult? What were you experiencing? What was. What was an observer's kind of viewpoint or. And what was the energy? Like? What.

Host [01:16:09] I mean, I think I tried. I think I may have tried to encourage you not to even attend because I had seen. I had tried to champion so many. I, I, like, I was at BYU when the September 6th stuff happened. I saw it and then I started Mormon stories and I got 10 years before they did it to me and. But then they did it to Bill Real and Jeremy Runnels and, you know, Lee and Cody Young and Marisa and Carson Calderwood and the Ohio couple. So many.

Guest 2 [01:16:46] Who's the Ohio couple?

Guest [01:16:47] That's the Youngs.

Guest 2 [01:16:48] The Youngs.

Host [01:16:48] Okay.

Guest 2 [01:16:49] Yeah.

Host [01:16:49] Yeah. There's so many. I just saw it over and over and over, over again. And I just had the. I'm like, we're going to turn this. It's almost like a. A laser beam. We're going to put a mirror up and the laser beam is going to shoot right back. We're going to make these excommunications public. We're going to make them visible. We're going to even make them a celebration. We're going to make them. We're going to make the church regret that they're doing these things. And what I saw at first, that's

Guest 2 [01:17:15] why it's like the discomfort. That's why everybody just. Just has so. Such a hard time with you, John. You're just like such a agitator and just like a discomfort maker.

Host [01:17:24] Yeah, for sure. And so I'm like, we're gonna get the media involved. We're gonna have vigils for every single one. I'm personally gonna fly to every excommunication. Sam Youngs. We're gonna get people outside.

Guest 2 [01:17:36] This is why you're the brother who shall not be named in my family systems of the. Of the Siblings, The Mormon siblings.

Host [01:17:43] Core horror. I'm the church's worst nightmare.

Guest 2 [01:17:45] Sometimes they don't like you.

Host [01:17:47] No, but. But I'm just. You know, it's. I just. I. I was traumatized by seeing the church silence and. And harm and cut people off. And I'm like, not on my watch anymore. And so, you know, I did these five years of, like. Of trying to disincentivize the church from excommunicating.

Guest 2 [01:18:07] You were bringing transparency to the excommunication

Host [01:18:10] process and making it a badge of honor. Turning it from. From a thing of shame that silences people to a badge of honor that people could wear proudly and say, man, I'm one of those people standing for truth and righteousness. Kind of like Martin Luther King Jr. It was like. And I don't. People hate it when I compare to the civil rights movement, but they filled up the jails. But then they got to the point where the jails were full, and they couldn't keep sticking people in the jails because the jails were full.

Guest 2 [01:18:36] So you're just like, are they going to keep excommunicating people? Totally.

Host [01:18:40] I'm like, we're going to just do this until it hurts them, till they can't do it anymore. But by the time I got to you, Peggy had stopped covering them. The trip. Stopped covering them. The news.

Media Coverage and the Public Nature of the Proceeding

Guest 2 [01:18:52] The New York Times do what? The New York Times covered it at

Host [01:18:56] first, but after the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, and 5th and 6th, they stopped by. By the time Bill Real and Sam. By the time Bill Reals excommunicated, it's like, meh.

Guest 2 [01:19:05] Like excommunicated. So I guess your point is right.

Host [01:19:09] No, the. The journalists just like, they. They. Okay, we've seen this.

Guest 2 [01:19:13] Okay?

Host [01:19:13] And. And then less. Less and less people started showing up. And I saw how a trauma I saw, like Lee and Cody Young. It just traumatizes these young families, you know, it's just like so much community trauma and so much family trauma and so much individual trauma.

Guest 2 [01:19:30] So much chaos.

Guest 3 [01:19:31] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:19:32] And so what you said, natasha, don't go. You told her not to go.

Host [01:19:35] I mean, I don't want to say. Say what our private conversations were, but I asked you what your goals were. You're like, the thing I love most is mixed or mixed faith, marriage, work. And I'm like, well, like, what if you just. I mean, I did. I said this to you. I said, what if you just didn't tell anyone you got the letter, let them do whatever they want, but you don't ever tell Anyone. They're not supposed to tell anyone. And then you just keep doing your mix or your mixed faith marriage work and your advocacy work, and nobody ever knows you got excommunicated.

Guest 2 [01:20:04] Okay.

Host [01:20:04] And then you don't get traumatized.

Guest 2 [01:20:06] Like, just keep it quiet.

Host [01:20:07] Your family doesn't get traumatized, and you just keep doing amazing work. Now, you have done that anyway, and you still do mixed faith marriage work. And you're doing stuff with Alan and Katie Mountain as we speak. So that hasn't ended, but I just wanted to save you and your family the trauma. And frankly, I wanted to save the community, the collective trauma. But that would have been going back

Guest 2 [01:20:31] to the silence, to the not putting shining the light on what was really happening. Because if we don't see it, then we don't see the abuse, Right?

Guest [01:20:38] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:20:39] Because me literally seeing with my own eyes how they were treating you, I mean, I lived through this. I, like, I've lived through Mormon feminism. This isn't a surprise to me, but I don't know why it keeps being a surprise to me. And I think that that's what keeps being so hard. Because the poly, the November policy, the exclusion policy for those that don't know they did a gay. Like an LGBT policy. That was bad. Okay. Not going to get into it. Most people probably know.

Guest [01:21:02] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:21:03] Okay.

Guest 2 [01:21:03] When that happened again, I was. It was just like, they're doing it again. Every single excommunication. I think that maybe they're not going to really excommunicate the person. And then they do, and it makes me really sad. Yeah.

Host [01:21:16] Well, the short answer is I wanted to save you, your family and our community, the collective trauma. And I didn't want your amazing work to in any way be marked like mine has been, frankly, so. But you did the courageous, honest, open thing so well.

Guest [01:21:36] I did. I mean, I did. I remember you telling me that. And we. And I remember thinking about it for a few days and then I thought through all the potential things. Right. Because for a minute, that sounded kind of actually pretty. Pretty good. I was like, that's actually a really good idea, John. But then I know how small our community is. Right. And I know how our community works. That, you know, this person is. It's not going to stay confidential.

Host [01:22:06] The church would have leaked it, guaranteed,

Guest [01:22:08] somehow, you know, or. Or just even ward members who had been involved in the stakeholders counsel. Or they'd be like, oh, can you believe she's still doing that work? She's still pretending to be Mormon when, you know, she knows that she's been excommunicated. And then that would have. It's exhausting. Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:22:25] Look, think of it. This is not normal. Everyone. This conversation is not a normal conversation. Should I, should I let them excommunicate me? Should I go to my thing? Should I just like, let it be a nothing in the void of Mormon conversation? Like, I mean, what, should we hide

Host [01:22:43] and lie, but avoid community trauma?

Guest 2 [01:22:45] Just listen to ourselves. Just listen. This is unhealthy. Anyone has to be faced with these

Host [01:22:52] kind of decisions in the 21st century. We're talking about like Galileo, Catholic Church,

Guest 2 [01:22:58] how to not get burned so bad when you're a witch and they're burning you. Like, maybe you could just get a

Host [01:23:02] little burned, you know, it is ridiculous.

Guest [01:23:04] Yeah. So I just. So really. And I've always said this to you, John, I think for a long time, I really kind of chose more your style, which is you've always been pretty transparent. Right. And pretty open about things. And so I just said, you know, if this is going to happen, I'm going to try to be as transparent and honest. Because we do know that we do love honesty. Whether you're true believing or post Mormon, it's a value, really, really value honesty in this community. And I do too.

Host [01:23:38] Silence is the killer. Silence is the enabler, and silence is the killer.

Guest 2 [01:23:42] It is a value. The silence of value is a value that is definitely present. Right. And I, I say this a lot like the lazy learner kind of idea. I was a lazy value maker. Right. And so your value around honesty is a true, literal value that you held for yourself. Right. And even for me, as I've thought about it, like, oh, what if I got excommunicated? Would I go? Would I. I not like having even any of these thoughts. You're. It seems like you came down to finally a value of like, I'm going to be transparent with it.

Guest [01:24:10] Yeah. And I really did want to follow kind of your examples and then other people's examples in that. And I, I just thought that's what I'm gonna do. And I was gonna value honesty. And that's why when I, I knew, I knew I could record it. Part of me wanted to just not so I could share it with the world necessarily, but just to remember. Cause I'm not always a great remember, but just so I could remember what was said and how I. Sometimes I need to record myself because I, I'm spicy and I lose it sometimes when I'm torqued.

Guest 2 [01:24:43] And then you come on.

Guest 3 [01:24:44] Yeah.

Guest [01:24:45] I'd want to know, put yourself in

Guest 2 [01:24:46] the face, Vulnerability to anything that you could say unedited.

Guest [01:24:48] So, yeah, so I wanted to know how I reacted in there. Like, did I lose it or what was my tone? Right. You know, but I said no. I told them, I'm not going to record it. I'm not gonna record it. Right. I was gonna be honest through and through, and I was gonna try to be as transparent.

Guest 2 [01:25:04] I know when you told me that, Natasha, I mean, I don't, I wouldn't judge anybody if they made the decision to record.

Guest [01:25:09] I wouldn't either.

Guest 2 [01:25:10] I remember you telling me that. And I like that you sh, you share it, because I think there is this. You know, I just think, like, you, you really were trying to go with your integrity into this court. And I remember in talking, in lots of conversations with you, that is what I continued to think. You really were trying to go with your integrity into this.

Guest [01:25:29] And I, I was really trying.

Guest 2 [01:25:31] And I appreciate that about your experience, you know, and also just the idea

Host [01:25:35] of patriarchy silencing another woman, that, I mean, that couldn't be great, right?

Guest 2 [01:25:39] Because she's talking about sexuality. I mean, it's just like. Feels like classic textbook.

Guest [01:25:43] It just is. So. Anything else you want to say about that day in particular, though, before I talk?

Emotional Aftermath and Personal Reckoning

Host [01:25:50] Well, I'd never seen you like that. Like, I, I, I didn't mean. I, I don't know if you were joking about the mania or the manic kind of comment, but I was afraid. I was saddened. For I. When I walked into that house and you had all those people around you showing love and support, but you were in a mindset. I had. I'd worked with you for years. I'd never seen you in anything close to that mindset before, and I've never seen anything like that since. In fact, I don't know if I've even seen that in clients I've worked with in my many years, you were in an altered state that was empowering but terrifying and deeply saddening to me. And I almost didn't. Like, I was worried. I was afraid for you. I was afraid for you. I was hurting and I was afraid for you. I was.

Guest 2 [01:26:53] What were you afraid of, John? You say that, and I'm, like, so curious. Why afraid?

Host [01:26:59] Because it. Oh, wow. How do I say this? It was just. You were manic, you were emotional, you were crying, you were happy, you were in your power. You were weeping, you were sobbing, you were enraged. You were everything. And you. It was like you were literally in your Amygdala it was like your. You were. Your amygdala. It was like. It wasn't that you didn't have any executive function functioning, but you were, you were trauma. And it wasn't just the trauma. I mean, you talked a lot about this. It wasn't just the trauma that you were experiencing around the excommunication. It was how you'd been treated in the church for your whole life. It was being raised under a patriarchy. It was things with your parents, it was things with your family at the time. It was all the stories that you've

Guest 2 [01:28:01] heard of patriarchal abuse. All the stories.

Host [01:28:05] And not just for you, but for women and for others. And then all the sexual shame and the trauma. You were caring more than any human should have had to carry. And it was almost like. I think the best I could. The best analogy that will be lost on almost everyone is the X Men episode with Jean Gray where in part three of the X Men, she gets her power, but she almost loses control and almost destroys everyone around her because she's carrying so much collective pain and trauma. Jean Gray, look up Jean Gray, the Phoenix, X Men 3. Watch it. Yeah, it was so much power, but so much anger, but so much sadness. And you were in an altered state. How is it for you?

Guest [01:29:00] Well, it's hard to hear that for sure.

Host [01:29:05] Well, I don't mean it in any denigrating way or judgmental way.

Guest [01:29:10] I know that and I'm grateful for your feedback. You know, it's. It's. I guess the part of it that it would be most hurtful is if I was hurtful to people on that day. And I don't know if I was or not. I'm guessing I was. I may have dismissed people or didn't listen to people or. I remember there was a few men in that house and you were included. And I'd be like, no men will talk to me. Oh, but John, I need technical help so you can talk to me for five minutes. I would, you know, I would do things like that. And I think that, I mean, I was kind of being humorous and I think you know me well enough that I. I was hoping you'd get that. But. Yeah, but there was truth to it too, right? Like, I couldn't handle a lot of male energy that day.

Host [01:30:23] Yeah.

Guest [01:30:25] There were several gay men in the vicinity and I was okay with them. I don't know, it was just. Yeah, I don't, I don't remember it all. I do know that I was like extremely sleep deprived. And I know that I was very saddened that it was a weekend I had hoped to be more available to one of my kids and ended up not being that I have not to this day gone back to watch the recordings. So I don't really know what I said, you know, I know that I said a lot of things afterwards and a lot of people listen to me probably talk for a long time

Guest 2 [01:31:25] and

Guest [01:31:25] I don't know if I would go back now and listen to all that. I'd be like, oh my God, good Lord, you know, like I was just rambling or if I was.

Host [01:31:33] You mean in the live streams before and after?

Guest [01:31:35] Yeah, yeah. Like I have not gone back yet. I think I plan to at some point, but I haven't wanted to. I know that at the time, you know, where I was rejected or told I wouldn't be able to enter unless I gave them my phone, which I was not prepared to do. And I wasn't prepared to go in there without my notes. You know, at that point I could not. I just knew I couldn't function to talk to you or to anybody else. So that was hard because I can easily function enough to talk to people. And I knew a lot of people had come and probably wanted to talk or would have, you know, I would have enjoyed meeting people who had come. I knew a lot of people had come from out of state and had made a sacrifice to come. So I felt dismissive about that. But I held pretty steady to that decision because I just, I, in some ways I didn't trust myself and I felt like that was one way I could self care was just to try to breathe and just be in my own body and my own thoughts. So yeah, it was, it was hard. It was a hard day. I felt in some ways I felt very unprepared. Like I had wanted so many other things done before that day came. So many things written or so many things processed or thought through and. But I knew I had run out of time and so I knew I had to accept that and there was some acceptance work I had to do that day too. And. Yeah, but you saw, I mean, yeah, definitely there's different. Natasha's right. I mean there's definitely. Most people got to see the professional version of me and that was definitely the more. Not necessarily that I'm like that all the time, but I think that, you know, when I'm angry or like, you know, my sibling, you know, and I think about fighting with my brothers or even my ex spouse or being in, in my moments of, like, heartache or sadness or rage. I mean, there is very much. There's a part of me that's very Latina. There's a part of me that's very expressive. There's a part of me that isn't as composed and, you know, professional and careful and cautious as far as how I present myself, typically. And I've done a lot of work to do that, right, because I had maybe an example of, you know, anger that wasn't very controlled and in my father, sadly. And that was scary when that would come up. And so I. But I. I feel it within me. Like, I can feel the same. The same physiology. I can feel my face turning, like, into his. So I've done a lot of work to manage that, and I think he did, too. And that's what we do, right? We just try to do better than our parents do. But, yeah, that day was enraging, and it was

Guest 2 [01:35:56] very difficult.

Guest [01:35:59] And it came at a time when I was already very low. It was already a very difficult year for me. So it wasn't like I was my best self when that came along or had my best mental space, mental health, energy around me. I already felt like I was kind of in survival mode for a variety of reasons. So that was like, the last straw. At the same time, I mean, when I walked away that night, when I walked away, and maybe I'll go back and listen to stuff and I'll be like, oh, yikes. But when I walked away, I was pretty. I felt, like, pretty at peace. Like, I felt like I had said what I needed to say. I felt like I had done all I could do. I had really given it my heart and soul. I felt like I'd been open with our people. I felt like I had. I had tried my best. And I felt like a lot of the things I did say at the time felt true and empowering and. But whether or not that will stand the test of time for me. You know, you always go back and look at yourself and go, yikes. Why did I say that? Or, you know, you can always be your own best critic, right? But I just. I mean, I was glad with how things went. I don't regret anything. Like, I'm glad that all the people that were there were there, especially in my home. I'm glad that we, especially the females in the room did the rituals that we did, that they prayed over me, and that we read certain scriptures and poems and things that had to do with matriarchy. And I'm glad that I read the letters of my immediate family, you know, my mother and my siblings, that they had prepared for me and that they allowed me to prepare to share, you know, publicly. I'm glad that. I'm glad that even small changes occurred due to time. Like, I had thought I would get there an hour early to be able to hang out with people. I'm glad I arrived right at the time I needed to be there. So I didn't even know that the whole bathroom thing had happened. I'm actually very glad that I didn't know that, or else I would have gone in there with, I think, a whole nother attitude with the flow. I was feeling. I. I wouldn't have put it past me to, like, drop my drawers right there and gone to the bathroom on their sidewalk. So that's.

Guest 2 [01:39:08] That would have been one response.

Guest [01:39:09] Yeah, that may not have gone over very well, but. So I'm kind of glad that I was kind of protected from some of the things that were happening. I'm glad. Even though I'm saddened by some of the things, I'm glad that I took the space for myself and prioritized myself. And people have been lovely. You know, lots of people throughout the last year, I've met at different events, have said, oh, I was there. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry I didn't connect with you. And they're like, don't even worry about it. Right. So people, of course, are very understanding and lovely about it. And then I'm glad that we went to the place. We went to, the Keeper of the Plains. I'm sorry I kept everybody out in the cold so long. I'm sorry about that. But I'm glad that the witnesses were able to say what they were going to say. They weren't even allowed to witness for me after they'd come all that time. I'm glad that it was a female led event. And I think there were some. Even some personal things that happened for me on the way home from that event that gave me some real closure as far as just some personal things that were happening in my life. So it was overall, you know, and. And I came home and. Yeah, I. You're right at that point that then the crash really happened. And I think you were so kind to. Well, you were very kind in a lot of ways. So he is a big brother. That's true, Amy. But I will name him. You shall be named.

Guest 2 [01:40:53] You shall be named in my.

Guest [01:40:55] Yeah, so you had set it up for me to have some Medications that would be helpful for sleeping. And I think you also made it so that there would be some monies available, because I really wasn't able to work for almost a good month after that. And that really, you know, my practice took a hit, and it was at a time when I was. My whole family was dependent on me, and I didn't have a lot of reserves. So thank you to everybody who helped with that, you know, and for you for spearheading that. And I was able to offer a few people from that. Those donations as well, like travel expense, people I knew who couldn't really afford to make that trip out there. I was able to help a few people with those monies as well. So that was very kind. And then, yeah, I went to bed for two weeks, and then the next two weeks, I started, little by little, working again. And I think, yeah, I think it was the new year that. Well, it was about. It was about fall that I finally took my own medicine and decided to go on an antidepressant myself. Something I recommend to a lot of clients, especially if you're kind of in a rut, which I realized, you know, it's like I'm still in this rut, even though intellectually I kind of know all these things, and I've been trying all these things and going to therapy and lots of different things. So I did get on an antidepressant, which has been very helpful. And past the new year, things have really been much, much better. And then we have the anniversary to talk about it all again. So that's me in a nutshell.

Host [01:42:54] Beautiful. And you have nothing. Just to be clear, you have nothing to apologize for, and you were carrying more than you should have been. And, Amy, you wanted to ask a question.

Guest 2 [01:43:04] I wanted to say something in response to all of that. Just like, hearing. Hearing you talk, it just continues to make me realize what you were facing in that kind of patriarchal trauma. Right. And you. I wish you could like all of the years that you have given to this community and the compassion that you have put out to the world. I just want to take a minute. Like, I can see there's people commenting on this thing over here, but, Natasha, you have influenced a lot of people. You have influenced the Mormon culture in such a way, a profound way. And so I want you to think about all of that energy and compassion that you have given out, and you need to receive it today on this anniversary. Okay. Because all of you are apologizing and you're worrying about how you showed up and it's like, Natasha, everyone understands. And you have given. You have offered so much more to this community that I would just say, f the haters. I'm not going to swear because this is a live family program, but just insert that because it's like, if people are going to be critical of you with what you were facing at that time, then they. Then it's their issues, then it's their stuff, right? Because you were dealing with, like, your. Like, your Mormon identity. You have written some beautiful things about what your Mormon identity has meant to you. And I get that because I also have lots to say about my own Mormon identity. And I'm gonna use Mormon ha. Okay. Because it is that. That it is my Mormon identity deeply. And so to have that, it would be like my dad coming in and saying, you are not part of this family anymore that you have loved. I love the Mormon siblings. You get me talking about the Mormon siblings. I could talk hours, hours about us, hours about the Mormon family system. As a systems therapist, I can't not do that, right. And not see, like, your role in the whole family and realize you just need to accept the compassion and you need to just shed any of that stuff that you. And I'm like, if we can do that on one year, if that's all we do today, and just to at least have you accept and receive all of the goodness that you have given those people.

Guest [01:45:20] Okay, well, thank you. And I. And I have felt that compassion. I mean, I have really felt that people were beyond amazing. I mean, I was.

Guest 2 [01:45:31] Natasha, you love the Mormon women. You love Mormon women. All of them. On whether they've left or whether they're all across. You love Mormon women, right? And so Sonia Johnson, she was talking on Mormon Land podcast and at her event, she was talking about this mania or the flow or whatever that you were talking about, because she had it too. And she talked about. She was at this thing and she just started screaming and raging and she just was like, I didn't recognize myself because I was so angry. But it was out of love of Mormon women that she was getting so angry. And she's like, I didn't even recognize myself. Her and her husband ended up getting divorced. Like, she talks about this. This isn't me sharing anything. I don't know her personally. This is what she shared. But in her talking about that, I was like, that flow was what you were tapping into. And what felt contagious to me too, right? Is that like, wow, that was abusive. What you experience, Natasha. And I know you Have a hard time receiving that sometimes. Because people that are not Mormon tell you that. Like, I know you've told me that you have sex therapy friends out there. That's like, whoo. What was going on? And you're just like. And. And it's been normalized to be treated that way. It has been normalized to be treated awfully and to accommodate. Sorry, do you swear on this podcast?

Guest [01:46:47] Sometimes.

Guest 2 [01:46:47] Sometimes. Okay. Accommodating the bullshit. Right. You accommodated so much bullshit. And I'm just going to stop because now I'm, like, swearing and anyway, I hope you receive.

Guest [01:46:58] Amy's got the flow now.

Guest 2 [01:46:59] I hope. But I. I do. I. I did get the flow. We could have a whole conversation on what happened in my flow. But, like, honestly, Natasha, please, if you could shed anything, shed that today. Yeah, okay. Leave that in the last year, because we were all witnessing what was going on, and there was so much compassion for you and so much fire that we all felt for you, you know?

Guest [01:47:21] Yeah. And I feel like everybody picked up lots of things. I mean, like, reporters were calling. I mean, why did Kristen Hodson go on Doug Fabrizio. Because I didn't answer that phone call, so I'm glad she did. Right. And why did. I mean, there were so many things I was just dropping left and right.

Guest 2 [01:47:36] As you should have.

Guest [01:47:37] And I didn't read half the comments.

Guest 2 [01:47:38] As you should of. Because you were at the center of the grief and pain. And so there was no way I can. There's no way you can do that. So guess what? I'm speaking for all of the commenters, and we love you, everybody that you might have hurt. I hope that you can set that free in the world, too. If she hurt you that day, you need to set that free, too. Okay. So we're going to make the world right. Okay. You don't have to apologize for how you showed up in the face of trauma is what I'm saying.

Guest [01:48:04] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:48:05] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:48:05] Okay.

Guest [01:48:05] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:48:06] Thanks.

Guest [01:48:06] Thank you.

Guest 2 [01:48:07] Amy.

Host [01:48:08] Yeah. How do you reflect now on the past year? Forget the actual event now. Forget, you know, like, looking back a year from now, how do you reflect on. On that event a year later? What comes up for you, what you talked about, Good decisions you were happy you made, but just overall, maybe there's the personal benefit in harm and then there's kind of the community benefit in harm.

Impact on the Broader Community One Year Later

Guest [01:48:46] Yeah, it's. I mean, it is. For me, it always was a community story, you know, and that was another reason why I wanted it to be more transparent, because like you said, Amy It's. It's. I'm not the only therapist that thinks these things. Right. Where we've been sitting in groups and supervision and networking with people. So I. I really felt that. I felt like if I'm going to get excommunicated for telling people it's okay to masturbate, what does that tell the majority of our population? Right. If we're gonna excommunicate a therapist because she's advocating for gay rights, what does that tell the LGBTQ plus population? Right.

Guest 2 [01:49:30] Does that tell them?

Guest [01:49:31] And. And if we're gonna, you know, excommunicate somebody for being able to talk about sexually explicit materials from a clinical perspective, what does that tell all these marriages that are really struggling with things that we have given them? No. No helpful model. No, we've. The model that we have right now in the church for dealing with sexuality and a heterosexual marriage is so painful and so hurtful to both the wife and the husband. And so it's. It's just. So what. What's going to happen there? Right. And then. And then for the mixed faith relationships. Right. So if they excommunicate me, then here's all this great work I've done and things that we've developed over time and resources that now maybe believing spouses aren't going to trust, you know, And I'm like, oh, my goodness, what message does this send about mental health in general, even. Right. Or sex therapy?

Guest 2 [01:50:25] They're just showing. They just continue to show the car. Right. So excommunication or choice, it continues to show that. What their values are. Yeah.

Guest [01:50:35] And so for me, this was a community story. This was a community excommunication because it touched the themes of so many of us. And even this idea that we can't be critical of church leaders, which is so damaging. Right. This idea that the people can't have a voice, which is.

Guest 2 [01:50:55] What was the number one thing, the number one reason on your letter that you got back? The number one.

Guest [01:51:00] That I was. As far as my expectation. Yeah. That I was like, against the doctrines and the leaders.

Guest 2 [01:51:07] You're repeated, I think. Repeated.

Guest [01:51:10] Yeah. I'd have to get the language. But repeated ongoing criticism of the brethren,

Guest 2 [01:51:15] which if I'm going to just like summarize into an easy sentence, it just means you were mean to us. You were being mean and telling the truth. Sorry, this is where I really should probably stop. But here we go. But it's like that first one is like, because you were being critical.

Guest [01:51:30] Yeah. And the church needs to be bigger than that.

Guest 2 [01:51:33] The Egos. Come on. Yeah.

Guest [01:51:35] It needs to be bigger than that.

Guest 2 [01:51:36] Yeah.

Guest [01:51:39] So anyway, I do feel like there are huge implications for. For the. For the community at large, for all of this. So I guess those are my reflections. Personally, I do feel a bit freer. I don't. I don't think now at all about what I'm going to say or how I'm going to say it.

Guest 2 [01:52:04] You're unafraid. It made you unafraid in that regard. Yeah.

Guest [01:52:08] I don't censor myself at all. Not that I censored myself much before, but I. I would think you know more about that.

Guest 3 [01:52:17] I was just looking on the church's website because I was hoping that something had changed. Okay. In their verbiage. Okay. Unfortunately, no.

Guest 2 [01:52:30] The verbiage was specifically.

Guest 3 [01:52:31] What do you mean about masturbation.

Guest 2 [01:52:34] Oh, masturbation.

Guest 3 [01:52:34] Okay.

Guest [01:52:35] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:52:35] When you guys were talking about it earlier, I'm like, I wonder what the church is saying now, like, what's on their website. And it says, the sin of masturbation is a perversion of the body's passions. When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal. Masturbation is not physically necessary.

Guest [01:52:58] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:52:59] Wow.

Guest 3 [01:52:59] And so thank goodness for Natasha and people like Natasha and Amy.

Guest 2 [01:53:06] Immoral, perverted. Like, say. Say some of the big words to me because words have power,

Guest 3 [01:53:16] Pat. And let's see. Selfish, immoral, immoral, carnal, carnal.

Guest 2 [01:53:21] These power words. And I'm like, pleasure, fun, happiness, joy. Yeah, yeah. Connection. I mean, I could go on and on with the positive words I feel about stress, relieving, stress, anxiety, relieving, refreshing.

Guest 3 [01:53:36] How many marriages would thrive using those words instead of being shamed and being told that they are all of these things? What the church is telling them, like, how many marriages would be saved or human souls. Right. And individual people would be empowered and what a happier, more loving society that would make than what. What is written here. And it just made me sad.

Guest 2 [01:54:08] Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [01:54:10] And it's actually not true that it's not necessary. So especially for male bodies, we know that, you know, ongoing ejaculation helps with things like avoiding prostate cancer, so. And I think it's actually very necessary in healthy relationships where there's libido differences. I think it's necessary for helping with, like we said, anargasmia and all kinds of things. It's actually. It's actually, there's so many health benefits to regular masturbatory practice.

Host [01:54:44] And how can a woman know how to help her partner, Please her if she doesn't know how she is pleased.

Guest [01:54:50] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:54:50] I would say everybody, literally. It's not just, it's not just women. It's men too. It's. It's non binary people. It's like literally human people that have a human core to themselves and that is sexuality that we have been given this beautiful part of our passionate selves. And to then in your mind think that anytime I do that it is immoral, carnal, next to murder. Like, it creates this like emotional condom around people's sexuality is like what I see.

Host [01:55:20] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:55:20] So. So masturbate. Everybody have a good time tonight. In honor of Natasha's excommunication, but also to.

Host [01:55:29] Yes. And to reduce Natasha's ministry to just masturbation.

Guest 2 [01:55:34] If everyone could masturbate tonight, could that be what. Everybody does a vigil for Natasha today?

Guest [01:55:39] Just kidding.

Guest 2 [01:55:40] I'm sorry, Natasha. I'm going.

Host [01:55:42] Yes. And what I'm also saying is that you're also about healthy marriages and healthy mixed faith marriages and positive mental health

Guest 2 [01:55:50] and depression and gay marriages and gay

Host [01:55:52] couples anxiety and trauma, like healing from ptsd. Like there's so much, you've contributed so much to just reduce it just to masturbation. So much is also not adequately capturing all you've contributed.

Guest 2 [01:56:07] Yes.

Seeds of Change in Mental Health and Mormon Culture

Host [01:56:07] Tell me, what do you see? Do you see some seeds that may have been planted during and after your excommunication that are now sprouting within the broader mental health, Mormon and post Mormon community? And just maybe with even women's empowerment, progressive and post Mormon women's empowerment? Do you see seeds there that are sprouting?

Guest [01:56:36] Well, I think there's always seeds. And maybe you have more information on this than I do, but I, I definitely, I mean, we've definitely talked about this now twice at the Mormon Mental Health Association's conferences and how it's affected people and members of the MMHA are usually both believing therapists who are still in and post Mormon therapists. We have the whole spectrum in there. So we've had some really interesting conversations in there of how to be affirming sexual therapy. Sex therapists are doing sex therapy work or positive sex therapy work and ways that they can feel good, good ethically about and not be afraid of these kinds of issues. I always have mixed feelings, obviously, when people are like, you know what? This was the last straw. This was the last straw. This is what took me out of the church.

Guest 2 [01:57:30] You have mixed feelings?

Guest [01:57:31] Yeah, well, because I feel like, you know, on the one hand I'm like, well, I'm glad That this maybe empowered you to see something painful and hurtful and traumatic and to leave, if that's, that's good for you. On the other hand, it's. It's kind of like, why are we acting as a church in a way that would invite people to leave us? Right, right. So just, it's just kind of that mixed thing where I just don't see us heading down a very healthy path. Path as a church community.

Host [01:58:00] So.

Guest [01:58:03] But I think that overall, you know, of course, I don't. The people who maybe don't agree with me or don't see eye to eye with me are not necessarily people who might reach out to me or talk to me or have as much,

Guest 2 [01:58:21] I

Guest [01:58:22] don't know, much access to me. So I'm, I'm hearing more from people who have been affected positively. So it's, it's helpful to hear those things. At the same time, I'm sure there's other sides to those coins as well.

Host [01:58:39] Well, it's a. Personally, I can say that I've been in the room with you when you were introduced to large audiences of hundreds or thousands of people, and the energy that I've felt of people responding to, applaud for you, it's, it's, it's something I haven't seen in this space. So there's you. You and your story touched hearts and minds and the community sensibilities in, in ways I've never seen before. Like, I don't. I think ordained women did and made an important contribution. But then it, it felt like, as as many of these things do when they get assaulted with excommunication, they cut. They sometimes tend to deteriorate and weaken. And we didn't hear from ordained women for a while and there was kind of, in my mind, I'm just thinking like, wow, is women's empowerment in mormonism? Was that 2014? And now that's over. And for many, many years I'm like, well, I guess Mormon feminism.

Guest 2 [01:59:44] Oh, John, it's alive and well.

Host [01:59:47] Well, that's what I'm saying.

Guest 2 [01:59:47] Alive and well. Do you look on Instagram, they are just fiery.

Guest [01:59:51] Fiery, what I'm saying.

Host [01:59:52] But, but for me, that seems to started about a year ago. And when I look at how, how vocal JFF has been and Julie Hanks has been and, and then all these Instagrammers now and these new podcasts that are coming out and all this talk about Mother in Heaven now, and all this talk. Oh yeah, I think we're starting to see a resurgence of Mormon progressive And post Mormon feminism that I worried had kind of.

Guest 2 [02:00:24] It didn't die. It's been alive forever. Here's the other thing. People think that this is like, the new Mormon feminism arising from the spring. And I'm like, look at our history. But the thing is, we don't learn Mormon history. We never hear it. Never, never, never. But if we look at Mormon history, it's so rich and lovely and smart.

Host [02:00:45] They're always.

Guest 2 [02:00:46] Feminism is rich and great.

Host [02:00:50] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 2 [02:00:50] From the time of suffrages movement. I mean, even before that. I could go on and on, but, like, I love Mormon feminism and to see so many of these, like, younger women, because I think what happened was like, FMH was so big for. For a generation of women. Right.

Guest [02:01:07] And you mean Mormon feminist, Mormon house

Guest 2 [02:01:09] feminist, Mormon housewives blog. And then everything that. That sprouted, you know, and. And blogs, like, all that time was going on. And then. I think you're right, John. I think it settled. Like, I don't know, maybe it kind of got quiet. Ordained women happened. That was a big. That was big.

Guest [02:01:23] Right?

Guest 2 [02:01:24] That was. You could feel the sexism that bubbled up around that of wearing pants to church. I mean, there was a time where that was really happening. Right. But I do think that Natasha's story in the story of Mormon feminism is an important part of that. Mormon feminism.

Host [02:01:41] Yeah. And I wouldn't want to mansplain Mormon feminism to you, of all people.

Guest 2 [02:01:46] I'm not a pro. And that's the thing is, like, you look at, like, Lindsay Hansen park and like, the year of polygamy that she did. I mean, there's all of these really brilliant Mormon feminists.

Host [02:01:54] That's right.

Guest 2 [02:01:54] That have come. It's not a new thing.

Host [02:01:56] That's right. And all I was trying to say is whether it's. Whether it's Juanita Brooks or Fawn Brody or Sonia Johnson or Maxine Hanks or Margaret Toscano or, you know, Kate Kelly and now Natasha. I'm just saying, sometimes. Or Lindsay Henson Park.

Guest 3 [02:02:16] Okay.

Host [02:02:16] Sometimes a courageous woman puts herself in the public firing line and reignites a spark. And I know. And she did. Brings oxygen to the flame. She did.

Guest 2 [02:02:32] And that is what Natasha did. I agree with you, John. I agree with you. You didn't manslam me there. Thank you. I agree with that. I agree with that. Because. But that's why I was like, Natasha's brave. Right. Natasha dared to say the things that so many of us feel.

Host [02:02:47] Yeah.

Guest [02:02:48] What was most. And I've said this before on probably everything that I've been interviewed for. What was most probably affirming for me in my work through this whole process was that all the support letters came in. Yes. Were fairly equal from the believing side and the post Mormon side.

Guest 2 [02:03:07] Life. Yeah.

Guest [02:03:08] That was incredible for me because. And I think it's because, I mean, I don't know, I'm not super comfortable taking a whole lot of personal responsibility for that. But I think it's my message. My messages were about sexual health. I know, right? My messages were about relational health. My messages were about mental health. Those are messages that resonate with everybody. Everybody, either personally or in their family, has stories that those three areas of health matter to.

Guest 2 [02:03:39] I agree.

Guest [02:03:39] And that they have pain points on.

Guest 2 [02:03:42] Yep.

Guest [02:03:42] And so whether it was through our podcasts or through our blogs or through our work or people I trained or people, again, these. I can't really take credit for any brilliant idea. It's not like I know I came, I came up with like some big idea, but I did go out and learn a lot and then I tried to bring it back to my community.

Guest 2 [02:04:06] Yes.

Guest [02:04:07] And I tried to educate, and not only educate people, but educate other educators. Right. And so I think I just brought back good principles and that's why it resonated with so many people on no matter where they were on the spectrum.

Guest 2 [02:04:21] Believing, not believing. For me, that was very way post Mormon.

Guest [02:04:26] My career.

Guest 2 [02:04:27] Yeah.

Guest [02:04:28] And of my so called authority.

Guest 2 [02:04:30] It should be, though, because when you look at your life and think, what did I give to the world? What did I contribute to the world? You have contributed beautiful, wonderful things of light, Natasha. Things of truth.

Guest [02:04:43] Thank you, Amy.

Guest 2 [02:04:44] So.

Host [02:04:46] Yeah. And so we love you.

Guest 2 [02:04:50] We do love you.

Host [02:04:51] I think my humble observation, as someone who's been monitoring this space since, oh, I don't know, 1990, is that you are one of the great ones that has made a phenomenal, monumental difference to our community. And looking back a year later, not only am I moved by our friendship and our work together and just knowing you as a friend and as a human and as a mother and as a wife and as a colleague, as someone who cares a lot about people who put themselves in the firing line to raise their voice and to make a difference to me, you're one of the great ones. And looking back a year, your difference, I don't. I think it will take us decades to understand the difference you made a year ago.

Guest 2 [02:05:47] Oh, thank you. Amen to that.

Guest [02:05:50] Well, and I think I sit with similar people, so thank you for all that. Both of you do. I think you Both do amazing things. So thank you.

Guest 2 [02:06:05] I just talk a lot.

Host [02:06:08] Natasha's like, I don't want to talk about me.

Guest 2 [02:06:12] Can you please. I love you guys too. And just like

Host [02:06:17] talk about you.

Guest 2 [02:06:18] This episode. Exactly.

Host [02:06:19] It's pretty much going to be about you.

Guest 2 [02:06:22] But you know, like you did, you just had a big impact on, like on our. On our Mormon family. And mean dad's just going to mean dad all over the place. And it makes me so sad every time I feel like I have to prepare for impact on that.

Guest [02:06:35] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:06:35] And it really. Yours was a big one. It did impact quite a bit. So.

Host [02:06:40] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:06:40] I'm thankful that you've made it through the fire of this year.

Guest [02:06:44] Yes, me too.

Guest 2 [02:06:46] I hope that you really feel hopeful and free. I hope you feel free and liberated in a way that you didn't last year, you know?

Guest [02:06:55] Yeah, no, I definitely feel. I definitely feel hopeful and free and healing. Yeah. Which is the ongoing journey.

Guest 2 [02:07:04] It is an ongoing journey.

Guest [02:07:06] That's the ongoing journey. We're all on no end to that journey of growth and healing.

Host [02:07:15] So I have to wrap up in one minute, but let our listeners and viewers know how they can follow you and support your good work or benefit from.

Guest [02:07:24] Or benefit from your good work. Well, so I want to tell everybody about something that I'm going to start doing around this issue and I've been meaning to do for a long time. So. So I don't know if I can show these things, but does everybody remember seeing these books?

Guest 2 [02:07:40] I do.

Guest [02:07:41] Do you remember these?

Guest 2 [02:07:42] Yep.

Guest [02:07:42] So this is the letter from the clinicians that Lisa Butterworth started.

Guest 2 [02:07:46] Lisa Butterworth, Fire. Fire.

Guest [02:07:47] Fire. I think Lisa Hansen organized that.

Guest 2 [02:07:50] The words in that.

Guest [02:07:52] Yeah. Hand sent. So many people participated in this. I also have like these books of support letters. I haven't even had time yet to read most of these.

Guest 2 [02:08:03] Wow.

Guest [02:08:03] Which is just shocking to me. I feel like this is an ongoing project. I feel like the Mormon sexual shame story is an ongoing story. So we are going to just start creating a website and it's called sexcommunication.net and the reason why we called it sex communication instead of sex communicated, which was my first thought is one of my interns said, yeah, but you don't you want to have it be an ongoing process instead of like a finished process. Excommunicated is like it's finished. Excommunication is like it's ongoing. So because what we're really trying to do is we're trying to play with the words. So like sex communication, in my view, can have two meanings. So it can mean one what they did to me. Right. So they sex communicated me from the church.

Guest 2 [02:09:04] It's a great term. I really love the term so much, you know.

Guest [02:09:07] But I believe that we all could. Could use a whole lot of sex communicating. We can sexual shame from our systems ex.

Guest 2 [02:09:18] You know, just ejaculate it from your expulsing it, orgasming it out of you

Guest [02:09:26] our bodies and out of our mind. Yes.

Guest 2 [02:09:29] And out of our core identity. It needs to re.

Guest [02:09:32] It needs to be expelled. Yes. So that's going to be the second more important meaning of sex communication. And this is going to be a work in progress because what I've decided. And it was Kristen Hodson who taught me this story. She was like when we started the MMHA together she was like, well, if you wait for something to be finished really well before you start it, you never finish it really well and then you never start it.

Guest 2 [02:09:55] Isn't that the truth?

Guest [02:09:57] So that right now if you go to sexcommunication.net you will find pretty much almost nothing. But we're. I feel like I finally have the energy to dive in and I have an intern who's going to help me with this and we're going to build this website over the next year or two and we're going to do a lot of different things. I want to archive a lot of what happened so that you know, right now in order to find all the documents, all the things that I listed, you have to like go way back into my Facebook page. It's really hard to find. So we're going to document all of the things. We're also going to. We're going to make it possible for you to submit your own stories if you want of sexual shame. And what I would like to ask anybody who sent in one of these letters if you wouldn't mind me sharing your letter either anonymously with your name attached and or with everything because a lot of people like put their ward numbers like their, you know, they put membership information or with everything. If you wouldn't reach out to me either, you know, Facebook messenger or email any other. Any other ways.

Guest 2 [02:11:14] Any social that you can.

Guest [02:11:15] Any social media and just let us know because we're going to be emailing everybody but if, if we get at least some of you telling us oh yeah, we don't mind you using our letter, then that's one less person we

Guest 2 [02:11:26] have to get consent.

Guest [02:11:27] Email. Right. To get consent from. And. And we also would be interested if you're interested in reading Your letter out loud, like on a small YouTube video. We would love to have you actually be able to read it. And then we're going to post all these little videos. So we would like for this website to eventually be kind of like just a library of stories. We want it to be an archive of what happened to me. And we also want it to be kind of like a resource, like where we just give a lot of different. Maybe websites or books or whatever that might help with sexual shame and sexual resources. So. And I may also. I. Every time I say I'm going to write, John knows this because we've been writing our book for like the last 10 years together. But. But we. I'm going to try to write my memoir, which is also going to have the same name, and so I may write this as I go on the website and you can tell me what you like or don't like about it.

Host [02:12:25] So beautiful.

Guest [02:12:26] That's it.

Host [02:12:27] And Symmetry Solutions. If you have needs for mental health, check out Symmetry Solutions for a therapist or coach that can help you.

Guest [02:12:35] Yes, that's my group practice. And the Mormon Mental Health association, of course.

Host [02:12:40] Yeah.

Guest [02:12:41] And you can find those@getmormonhelp.com asymmetry souls or Mormon mental health. A sock a s s o c.org

Host [02:12:51] all right, well, I don't want to end, but we have to. So Natasha, we love you. Thank you so much.

Guest [02:12:56] Thank you both for.

Guest 2 [02:12:59] Hopefully everyone has non shamey sex or masturbation tonight.

Host [02:13:05] And Amy, thank you for joining us.

Guest 2 [02:13:06] You're welcome. Unedited Live. Amy here we.

Closing Reflections and Gratitude

Host [02:13:09] And Jen, we love you. Thank you so much for all you do for us.

Guest 3 [02:13:13] Thank you.

Guest [02:13:13] Thank you.

Host [02:13:14] All right, keep up the great work, Natasha.

Guest [02:13:17] You too.

Host [02:13:17] Thanks so much for everything.

Guest [02:13:18] Thank you.

Host [02:13:19] And we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Guest 2 [02:13:25] Bye.

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