Introduction and Context for Holland's Talk

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 24, 2021, and we have some kind of sad, sobering news that was unexpected yesterday. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, one of the senior apostles for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, former president of byu, was president byu and I was there. Actually.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] He gave a speech yesterday on August 23, 2021 at Brigham Young University during the first day of BYU's 2021 University Conference. And during that talk, during that speech, he did many things that have been received as kind of very controversial and volatile and potentially very, very hurtful to the LGBTQ Mormon community and to progressive Mormons and in some ways exciting and animating to really conservative orthodox Mormons and those kind of in the Desnat crowd, those who are feeling a little bit more militant against the church moving in any liberal or progressive way. In his talk, he did several things.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] He reflected about his childhood memories at BYU as a boy. He talked about how much he loved being a president there. But then he went on to decry what he believes and what he has experienced from feedback from members and from parents, a real concern about several things. He's concerned about a BYU valedictorian student who during his sort of valedictorian address at the end of a commencement speech a year or two ago, coming out as gay during his commencement speech. So we're going to be talking about sort of a Mormon apostle condemning a gay valedictorian student for coming out during his speech at byu. And he seems to be condemning the recent flurry of LGBTQ affirming demonstrations at byu, including, you know, the lighting up of the Y that happened recently where the, the BYU why was was turned into rainbow colors by, by LGBTQ BYU students and or affirming students.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] He seemed to be decrying that. He was also decrying BYU faculty and, and students that have been critical of the LDS Church's LGBTQ policies and specifically the lgbt, the LDS Church's opposition to same sex marriage. That's been going on for several decades now.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] And yeah, and he basically made what many are interpreting as a very insensitive call to arms, where he starts talking about muskets and using kind of war metaphor, decrying friendly fire, which is basically when BYU students or faculty are criticizing church leadership, but also sort of a call to arms to BYU faculty to defend the church and, or fight those who are pushing for progressive causes within the church. And basically, long story short, this has caused an uproar in the Mormon LGBTQ community.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] It's caused a lot of concern that Elder Holland's comments are going to yet again increase sadness or depression or anxiety or even suicidality amongst LGBTQ youth. We know that the, that Utah sort of the number one cause of death for teenagers and even young adults in Utah is death by suicide. And of course, we don't need more agitations on that front. The increase, the dramatic rise in LGBTQ Mormon youth suicide in Utah has been going on since 2008. So that's we're in 13 years of that rise and spike. So many people are concerned that Elder Holland has exacerbated this. There are many people who have chosen to resign or are considering resigning their membership from the church.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] And, you know, there are people concerned that he's emboldened. He's emboldening these, the alt right, the, you know, super orthodox prepper kind of does NAT community. So lots of things to talk about. We're going to be keeping today's episode to an hour. We are welcoming our YouTube viewers, inviting them to make comments and or questions on the YouTube live stream. We have Carol Burrell here kind of monitoring our audio and the live stream. Hey, Carol, thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] And most importantly, we have with us in studio today Kyle Ashworth, who is the host of Latter Gay Stories podcast. He's a dear friend of mine and of the OBA Stories foundation and a Mormon Stories podcast he's been on several times. And his episode recently on Mormon Stories podcast was very, very well received. So, Kyle Ashworth, thank you so much for joining us on Mormon Stories.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:26] Thanks, John. Thanks for inviting me and having me here.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] And I'm sorry for the circumstances.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:30] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:31] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Yeah. And then we also are very happy to have with us Gerardo Sumano. He is, he's kind of heading up cinematography here for Mormon Stories in the Open Story studio. And of course, his interview about being raised in Mexico as a Latter Day Saint and coming out as gay and going to BYU Idaho and falling in love with another BYU student there and even getting married as a BYU Idaho student is a legendary Mormon Stories interview for different reasons than Kyle's, but always Gerardo, we're so glad to have you back on Mormon Stories.

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:06] Thank you, John. Thanks.

Guests Recall Learning About the Speech

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Okay, so there's so much we could do and there's so little time. So, Kyle, how comfortable would you be kind of setting up your memory of yesterday and when this talk kind of came out and if you want to give a reframing of it that would help our Listeners who haven't heard it yet understand it. We. We will be playing a couple clips, so you can feel free to ask Kara to play kind of the three clips we have prepared if you want to integrate that into your description of what happened. But, Kyle, why don't we give you a chance to kind of set up what's going on so that then we can break it down a little bit?

Kyle Ashworth [00:06:44] Sure. Yeah. And I actually came across the whole talk kind of by chance. I was just sitting in my office working on a number of other projects, and I always set these Google alerts for keywords, things that pop up or things that are happening. And this whole week, I've paid attention to the education week and some of the things that the church was talking about, and particularly it was the BYU Annual University conference. And I pulled up the live stream and just started watching the livestream as it was happening, and I saw President Jeffrey R. Holland speaking. So I got into this part about where he was talking about being a young boy seeing the why at Provo's BYU campus, and just started paying attention to the livestream from there and was just super interested and shocked and at some points just in disbelief about what was happening and what was being spoken at this event.

Kyle Ashworth [00:07:45] So for those of you who are unfamiliar with what we're talking about today, as John did talk about, as you brought up, the one of the senior apostles of the church meets with the faculty, staff educators at BYU to essentially lay out some ground rules. As many of us well know, I just sent my four kids to school.

Kyle Ashworth [00:08:07] It's Education Week. It's kicking off the event, the school year. And that's essentially what Holland was doing at byu, was rallying the troops and letting them know, essentially, this is your course syllabus. This is what we're going to talk about at university this year. And what he did speak about has made news. And I don't know yet if it's national news, but I do know some media syndicates have definitely picked up excerpts of what Holland has talked about. But within the LGBTQ community, this has been a hot button issue. This has hit its viral point again, which, unfortunately, the church has a habit of finding ways of, of finding itself on the opposite side of publicity or negative publicity concerning this topic.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] And let's, let's just jump to the most important thing before we break down the analysis, before we actually even talk about the talk. Why is this talk important and how has it hurt people and specifically the LGBTQ community? What. How do you feel like it's hurt the LGBTQ community. And what has their reaction been? Just so we could talk about the most important thing at the beginning.

Kyle Ashworth [00:09:15] Yeah. So as host of a podcast that specializes in the topic of the intersection of sexuality and reality at LGBTQ Avenue and LDS street, you would think that I would jump in here to say, like, Holland went to BYU to rail on the LGBTQ community. And I'm not completely convinced that's what happened. But what I am convinced is that Holland went to BYU and. And leveraged or used the LGBTQ community as a weapon as a way of proving a point and as using my community and abusing my community in an effort to uphold archaic tradition and uphold something that is becoming very unsustainable. And in terms of foundation.

Kyle Ashworth [00:10:04] Sandy soil. And I think the part that hurts me the most is that he used my story and my community as a weapon. And we're going to talk about weapons, I hope, in this episode, the literal weapons he's asking members to use against my community and against a topic that means so much to me and my family.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] Okay, so let me make sure I understand. And this is just the overview. You're basically saying that Holland, the church, is really worried about managing liberals and progressives and critics and managing right wing kind of extremists, and that whatever he's doing at BYU is sort of like coming at the expense of 5 to 20% of the church's population, a group that you really care about, and it's causing additional harm to a group that's already been severely harmed. Is that your basic thesis?

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:04] I believe that the church looks at the LGBTQ community as an expendable resource, that there will always be a minority, trickle flow number of young LGBTQ people who will enroll in its school. And historically, we saw this in 1965 with Ernest Wilkinson, where he demanded that if you were gay, that you let the faculty know they would reimburse your tuition.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] They.

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:30] They didn't want you to contaminate the BYU campus with your presence. That has had many revisions. We see that again today, yesterday, with Elder Holland's talk. That is, in my opinion, just another use of the LGBTQ community to further a message. And I absolutely agree that this is an issue about reigning in the left and reigning in the right. And I don't know that the church has control of either party. And they're. They're a great disadvantage, which is very unfamiliar territory for a church that's always claimed to be the only true correct church upon the earth, which with I, the Lord, am well Pleased. And I think this is unfamiliar territory for the church.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] Or you could argue it's. It's the never ending battle for the church, because, you know, I remember when I was at byu, they were, you know, fighting with Bo Gryitz as a conservative, kind of constitutionalist, Ezra Taft Benson type, and they were firing Cecilia Khonjarfar and Gail Houston and David. David knowlton. And the September 6th. So it. I don't know, is it. Is it an. Is it a new battle, unfamiliar territory, or is it like, every decade? This. This is sort of the tension. But what I'm also hearing you say is that LGBTQ people are fodder for a culture war that the Brethren are trying to manage.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] And the. And the Brethren are seeing the LGBTQ community as. As fodder. That. That. That can be disposable. And it doesn't matter what harm comes to them if to make rhetorical points that help their brethren appear as though they're balancing the left and the right. And Gerardo, also want to get just your quick reactions to this talk as well, but did you have a quick reaction to that?

Kyle Ashworth [00:13:12] Yeah, you're absolutely right with the rhetorical message. That rhetorical message has existed in Mormonism for as far back as I've been able to study it out. It is that there is no happiness on this side of the aisle. There are no spiritual experiences for gay families, and that you will never find joy in the journey if you are gay. And that same message was just translated over a BYU pulpit, again, using that community as fodder in order to push this narrative that the church has it right. And you have families throughout Zion who have family members who are impacted by this topic, and their experience doesn't match the rhetoric that the Church has for decades given as the authority of message.

Kyle Ashworth [00:13:54] And that's where the battle comes in. I think that is what I'm talking about. That's where the church cannot rein it in, because their rhetoric no longer supports the lived experiences of these families all across the church, especially at byu. And now that we've recognized that you have the left polarizing, you have the right saying, we need to be orthodox. We need to hold on to the gospel. We need to hold on to what we've always taught. And you have all these other people who are saying, but that's not how it works. And that's the battle that I want to talk about today.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] And Gerardo, you have your own lived experience, and you have. You. You do have. You bring an international perspective as well. And you're Married. Anything? Just a high level overview reaction of what is hurtful about this or meaningful or significant?

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:38] Yeah, well, just this. This. I was kind of. I was super surprised and kind of shocked by who Holland's talk. Just because I don't think. And I think I was talking to Kyle about it. Like, I don't think there's been anything this radical in the past, like, several years.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:57] And it seemed like, in fact, the rhetoric was softening coming from the top. And that was, in some ways, I don't know, like, the LGBT issues in the church have always been kind of like a roller coaster, but certainly, I just can't remember anything this radical since, like, 2006. Elder Oaks.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:19] I don't know. Maybe Kyle has something else. But the interview where he just talked about not supporting your LGBT family members. And so it just doesn't make it easier. This was specifically for byu, right? Like, for big BYU faculty. Something that was interesting was that it was immediately publicized in the church news, which I don't know if that's standard procedure for this kind of, like, meetings.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] But you're wondering if it was coordinated maybe.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:47] Yeah. I don't know. I haven't looked back and looked like how many of these talks in the past have been immediately publicized. But, yeah, it just doesn't make it easier for us who have family members who are still in the church

Kyle Ashworth [00:16:04] who

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:04] struggle with how to find a way to support us and love us, and because they see that we're just like. I mean, we're just the same people. Right. And we're not these evil, I don't know, just evil persons that the church tries to. Tries to portray us to be. So it's just. It just makes it harder for them and makes it harder for us because when we speak out about these things, then it's hard on them.

Guest [00:16:34] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:35] Like, because they feel like we're criticizing their church, but they're talking about us.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:38] They're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] You're just defending yourself.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:40] Yeah.

Playing and Reacting to Holland's Address

John Dehlin [00:16:40] All right, I'm gonna have Cara cue up the. The letter as the first clip, and I'm just gonna. I'm gonna give. We're not gonna be able to play the whole talk, actually, but I'll just sort of give people some context. So Elder Holland starts the talk by kind of saying how weepy he usually gets. He says he weeps at, like, a ribbon cutting of a opening of a store, a mall.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:01] Used car dealership.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Used car dealership. I don't know if that was Ballard's or somebody else's. Used car dealership. But he says, you know, he talks about how he always gets emotional, how he's weepy. He goes on to talk about memories he has of visiting Provo and BYU as a child. He mentions the white Y. And he mentions, you know, seeing the Y up on the hill and mentioning it as white had to be a contrast to how the, the Y gets colored in the recent pro. You know, the recent demonstrations that happened where the students turned it, color it. He had to have mentioned the whiteness of the why with that in mind.

John Dehlin [00:17:39] Right? So he mentions the whiteness of the why, his fond memories of seeing the why. He talks about loving BYU for 75 years, for three quarters of a century. He thanks the, you know, students and faculty. He mentions a couple gratuitous good things that have been done. Says some things about Wilford Griggs and a Kimball talk and Hugh Nibley and approaching Zion. And then that's all like gratuitous. Got to get these things out of the way before I can sort of talk about how he even says it, John.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:07] He even says on the top talk. Well, kind of like there's a point where he says, where, well, I mentioned all this good stuff because now I'm gonna get to the matter.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Yeah, yeah, now I'm gonna, I'm slap everybody a little bit.

Guest [00:18:18] So.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to swear. So he's gonna smack everybody down. So then he jumps it. Then he wants to read a letter from I'm. Is it a concerned parent?

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:27] Although we know that this letter comes from someone associated with byu.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] Okay. And we're gonna have.

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:33] He calls it just the writer.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] And we've got a little technical setup that we're going to try. We're going to try and play that

Guest [00:18:38] clip now then imagine the pain that comes with a memo like this one I recently received. These are just a half a dozen lines from a two page document. You should know. The writer says that some people in the extended community are feeling abandoned and betrayed at BYU or by byu. It seems that some professors, at least the vocal ones in the media, are supporting ideas that many of us feel are contradictory to gospel principles, making it appear to be about like any other university our sons and daughters could have attended. Several parents have said they no longer want to send their children here or donate to the school. Please don't think I'm opposed to people thinking differently.

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Okay, so Kyle, what's your quick reaction to kind of what's going on there? Why is he talking about a letter he received and what's he thinking and feeling?

Kyle Ashworth [00:19:39] Isn't this Mormonism in its finest? Why, this is an anonymous. Some anonymous letter. Who's representing the concerned people on our block who are so upset with that one family who doesn't look, act, or react the way we do. That's what I got in this initial letter. First, just. This is typical Mormonism. This is one writer who is reaching out on behalf of the many. This is like the Book of Revelation, White horse coming in. And I'm sure this Dear Relief Society President wrote the letter in hopes of saving all of Zion.

Kyle Ashworth [00:20:17] But I think Holland is using this letter as a representation of. Of a bigger issue, and that is donors, people who are supporting byu. Orthodox, Latter Day Saintsat people. Super orthodox, very conservative. I hear you and I'm speaking directly to you. This is.

Kyle Ashworth [00:20:43] There's a myriad of letters that he could have brought up. Why is it that he brings up the one that says, our faculty has become too liberal, we're teaching things that aren't as orthodox as we think you should be teaching, and that. That is a threat to Mormonism, That's a threat to the doctrine. Why would he choose this one? And I think it's that very reason. This is a dog whistle. This is a clarion call to a certain faction of the Latter Day Saint community.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] Yeah, because I'm sure he could pull up a letter that's like, I'm the parent of a gay young adult. I'm worried that they're not safe at byu. I'm worried that they're being mistreated, that the honor code is, like, harming them in some way. Like, he would have lots of letters that he could share or from a BYU student who doesn't feel safe on campus or a trans kid or whatever. He's choosing to basically say it's the conservative orthodox members and the ones that would be sending their kids to BYU that are at risk. And I'm going to give, like you said, a dog whistle y talk to kind of address their concerns publicly to make them feel like we have their back and we're going to crack down with BYU professors and employees and students so that BYU doesn't become a liberal menace to the church.

Kyle Ashworth [00:21:59] Well, I think this is the BYU brand. How many times when we've discussed this topic in terms of liberalism within BYU have you heard or read in the comment section of every social media post that you have other choices? You can take your business elsewhere. There are other liberal schools where you can send your children as if there is only One way to Mormon, and that is alt right, conservative, orthodox Mormonism. The thing is, the liberal, if you want to call them liberal, BYU students are also Mormon. They also have a seat at this table. They have double recommends 100%. And so that's why I thought the introduction to this talk being that was very interesting. And I think that was very calculated to say our core demographic, the group of people that we really want to touch in this discussion, are the very right, conservative, orthodox Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Ardo, do you have a quick response to that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:53] No, just. I just something that was super interesting was how this writer ends the letter or how Elder Holland and ends up with this statement, which is like giving an example. Like the writer says that he has a friend who graduated from BYU and because of the radical teachers and two liberal teachers, she was radicalized and lost her faith at BYU and then graduated. And Elder Holland gives it as an example of what's going on and calls out the teachers who are pretty much being at fault for students losing their testimonies at byu.

Kyle Ashworth [00:23:37] And we read that through the miracle of forgiveness and through church history, where there is this idea that proselyting, if you speak about, if you become part of some type of teaching or some type of side message that isn't fully supported by the church, then you can easily become that. And I remember, I mean, I remember that discussion, especially surrounding gender identity and sexual orientation, if you associate yourself with that, you can become that was a hallmark of Spencer Kimball's ministry. So again, I think, and Gerardo's right, I think it's an interesting way of opening up this discussion and an interesting way of laying out what he wants. The root and the meat of what he wants to talk about is in this fireside.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] So I definitely, I literally don't want this to be get in any way political. Although I think it's important to note that there's also a news current events context going on where, you know, within the United States, there's a lot of questions and concerns and debate about COVID and its resurgence and the vaccine. And I think it's worth mentioning that recently the First Presidency weighed in and took the side that they were going to be pro vaccine. And that has also caused a lot of the more conservative orthodox members to feel like the first presidency is in apostasy, is abandoning them. And you see a lot of sort of alt right, des gnat prepper kind of conservative YouTube channels where they're talking about the first presidency possibly being an apostasy and or the need for members to rely more on personal revelation than on listening to the Brethren.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] I think that is an interesting dynamic that's happening parallel to what's going on at BYU that is potentially reinforcing the Brethren's fear and concern about losing the right. They know they're losing the left, and you guys don't even have to comment about that. But isn't that kind of interesting and relevant as well?

Kyle Ashworth [00:25:44] I just want to add one point to. Not to jump down into this rabbit hole of religious discussion. Sorry, political discussion. But I do believe the other part of this that we're not discussing that BYU is absolutely aware of, and that is the Biden administration's pressure of Title ix.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:01] And that's been really hidden. And the Church has tried to do a really good job at not discussing its issues with Title IX in terms of university. And.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] And for listeners who don't know what that is, explain just in one sentence or two, like what that is.

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:14] So it is the federal government's issuance of tax monies and protections to religious organizations and institutions.

John Dehlin [00:26:23] To all universities.

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:24] To all universities, but namely universities that also take federal funds, which BYU is the recipient of nearly a half a billion dollars worth of federal funds annually. Annually through grants and student loans. So you have to abide by a certain number of restrictions. Housing. Sorry, a certain number of provisions. Housing provisions for LGBTQ families.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:47] What if I were to get married and attend BYU with my husband, I would not be able to attend or live on campus or even attend the school. But Title IX is revisiting all of those discussions to see if the church can legally discriminate against my marriage at a religious university.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] So the Brethren are afraid of losing that money.

Kyle Ashworth [00:27:07] Potentially not only losing the money, but what does that do for the school? I mean, it does. And now, again, back to this discussion. It alienates a large portion because when we talk about the liberal left or the moderate or the center, we're talking about a lot. A large number of people in Mormonism. In my experience, not everybody is far left and far right. That centrist part, this is where that message really hits. And it's that central part of. Of Mormonism that when we start talking about LGBTQ issues, we're talking about a large swath of Mormonism. And I think that's what the Church is most fearful of.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:46] I think it's super interesting that Kyle just brought up right now the Title IX thing. Well, there's a class action lawsuit that's happening that we've covered in Mormon stories about all this. I think it's like over 30 plaintiffs who are suing different religious organizations. There's three alumni who are suing BYU because of this Title 9 issue, the fact that the church and BYU receives tons and tons of millions of taxpayer money, and then they are exempted from following anti discrimination laws. So, yeah, so this is a really interesting topic because Holland will. The next thing he mentions on the talk is money, money. And he mentions the tithes that goes into BYU and how the church needs to be careful on how much money they're putting into byu, especially because it's getting too radical.

BYU's Structure and Institutional Pressure

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Yeah, yeah. So I want to get to the warlike musket kind of talk. Was there something you're about to say, Kyle?

Kyle Ashworth [00:28:51] All I just wanted to bring up because I think this is probably a shadowed area for a lot of people who don't understand the structure of BYU and where Harad was talking about the way that money works. Holland talks about mentions in this talk that Russell M. Nelson, the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, holds the purse. He says there's not a organization within byu, not a program, not a clinic, not a truck that is not authorized for purchase, for expansion without the signature of Russell M. Nelson. So to understand that structure, there is the board of trustees, which is run by the president of the church, the head of the board, the chairman of the board is Russell M.

Kyle Ashworth [00:29:34] Nelson. And then underneath that are the first vice chair and second vice chair, which, if you follow Mormonism, would be the first counselor in the first presidency, Dallin H. Oaks. The second counsel in the first presidency is Henry B. Eyring. And then under that are board members who oversee various aspects of how BYU operates within the church education system. And then there's something called the Office of the Commission of the Church Education, which are the liaisons. And Holland brings this up in this talk, and I want to talk about its importance a little later. But there are two commissioners, Gilbert right now and Christiansen. These are both general authorities.

Kyle Ashworth [00:30:13] They're given the title of elder as they take these positions. So you have the board of trustees, the board members, the office of commissioner, and then you have the higher education institutional presidents, which are Kevin Worthen at BYU Provo and then Henry J. Eyring up at BYU Idaho, and then the other church schools have that as well. So that's kind of. I hope that you kind of understand that flow and structure, knowing that. I think that kind of helps frame and better understand what Holland was talking about. As he's saying, we report to Russell M. Nelson, because he is the chairman of the board at byu.

Kyle Ashworth [00:30:49] But very literally anything that happens at BYU goes through the president of the church. Which I think is really super interesting when you think. When you look at two years ago and a year ago's history concerning the Honor Code office and the changes in a lot of things that were happening at BYU and the church at first saying, we were taken aback, completely unaware. Church PR was trying to say that they were not aware of what was happening at BYU because they removed something

John Dehlin [00:31:13] from the honor code.

Guest [00:31:14] Right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:14] Yeah. So based on the April 2019 change of the. The rescission of the November 2015 policy,

John Dehlin [00:31:22] it was anti LGBT.

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:23] Anti LGBT, essentially saying that we are going to treat heterosexual homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships the same way. Kevin Utt, the honor co Director at byu, interpreted that to say, then we will allow same gender relationships or dating at campus. You can hold hands. All those things that were not allowed at BYU that lasted two weeks. And then that's where we bring in.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:51] They removed the paragraph from the honor code, Correct? Right.

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:56] But through the honor Code office at byu, students specifically asked, am I okay to date? Am I okay to hold hands? And the Honor Code office at BYU said yes. And then Paul Johnson, who was at that time the commissioner for the Church Education System, releases a shiny letter saying, that's not how it works. And so he's now, and I think ironically been released from that calling or that opportunity. A new one that Holland brings up in this talk. Clark Gilbert has.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:25] He was president of BYU Idaho and then he was made the president of Pathway Worldwide.

Kyle Ashworth [00:32:30] And now, now he's the commissioner, one of the Commissioners of Education. So I think that's also telling when we get a little further into this discussion where I think this is not only Haaland going after the left and the right and the donors to please the donors, but this is also Haaland's gut punch, or even is that you, Brutus, backstab to the administration at BYU and perhaps even Kevin Worthen himself.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] I mean, I had to wonder whether he was kind of trying to politely or even in sort of a passive aggressive way, taking Worthen behind the woodshed to swat him, say nice things about him, but basically say, you know, BYU has gone astray under your watch. And now, you know, so there was a. There's like some commission, some diversity commission that he says he was announcing simultaneous to what, partnering Worthing up with some overseer to clean things up. Is that kind of the vibe you get here?

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:29] Can I be 100% facetious. Just for a moment.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] Sure.

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:32] Remember when the videos came out with Fair Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:36] And the acronym that they.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Kwaku.

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:38] And so this. This is the show. Tits. So the church releases another diversity office. It's called the Office of Belonging. The BYU Office of Belonging.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] OOB B. OOB BYU Office of Belonging. I got it.

Kyle Ashworth [00:33:58] So just that very morning, BYU releases this grand new project called boob, called boob. The acronym is the boob.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] It's interesting you would notice that, Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [00:34:09] I know when you're gay, that's what happens.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] You notice these things, but.

Kyle Ashworth [00:34:14] Yeah. So BOOB is to address the needs of all the marginalized individuals on campus. As if the honor code office wasn't doing that already. We now have provided the. The BOOB or the BYU Office of Belonging to provide that for you.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] It just reminds me of like 1984 and kind of just the way that words are used to say things in, you know, manipulative kind of gaslighty ways.

Kyle Ashworth [00:34:42] Yeah. And so the non facetious part of me says, you release this Office of Belonging and which I think is necessary and needed at BYU to provide some type of. Of outreach to the marginalized communities. And we're talking about BYU's minority population, I believe was 81% white, 1% black or African American at BYU. So clearly there is a marginalized community at BYU. Not only just sexual minorities or gender identity minorities, but we are talking about a need for minority and much better treatment of minorities at byu. But to announce that program just moments before Holland gets up to then denigrade the marginalized to me is appalling.

Kyle Ashworth [00:35:30] But at the same time, it's Mormonism in action. This is what you get when you hitch your wagon to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You get on one hand a doctrine that supports the policies, and on another one negates it completely, just in case that first one fails.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Yeah. And there's always this. We love gay people, we love everyone. And let's give talks and make policies that make some of them super depressed and. Or even some of them not want to live on the earth anymore. And it's always this weird. We love LGBT people. Anyway, let's go to the next clip. For me, this is the clip that's most disturbing because we have sort of a special witness of Christ who calls himself the Prince of Peace intentionally and sort of like doubling down even to use war or violent rhetoric and metaphor to make his point. And so let's go ahead and roll the clip about muskets.

The Musket Fire Rhetoric and Its Implications

Guest [00:36:33] I'd like to hear about more musket fire from the Temple of Learning. He said this in a way that could have applied to a host of topics in various departments. But the one he specifically mentioned was the doctrine of the family and defending marriage as the union of a man and a woman. Little did he know that while many would hear his appeal, especially the school of family life, who moved quickly and visibly to assist, some others fired their muskets all right. But unfortunately didn't always aim at those hostile to the church. We thought a couple of stray rounds even went north of the point of the mountain. My beloved brothers and sisters, a house divided against itself cannot stand. And I'll go to my grave.

Kyle Ashworth [00:37:27] No, I jump. I play that one.

Guest [00:37:30] That this institution not only stands, but stands unquestionably committed to its unique academic mission and the church that sponsors it. We hope it isn't a surprise to you.

Kyle Ashworth [00:37:48] Yeah, I think that part is so interesting to me.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] So. Yeah, well. So what are your guys'. What is he trying to say with musket rhetoric? With war rhetoric? I mean, I. I couldn't help but notice yesterday I'm interviewing Jesse Funk. She's talking to me about an LGBT youth that she knows. She knows 10 Mormon LGBT youth who ended their life by suicide. And the one that pushed her over the edge, the 10th one was a female from Pennsylvania, a lesbian Mormon woman who shot herself with a gun. So for Elder Holland.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:21] Oh, and let the note saying that she was dying by suicide because she was not accepted by her. She knew she couldn't be accepted by her family and her church.

John Dehlin [00:38:32] Yeah. So for like a Yale educated, pretty good school, a special witness of Jesus Christ, of all the possible metaphors that he could invoke to try and delicately navigate this issue, he's gonna use war rhetoric that involves firearms and handguns. And that's not even to shame the use of firearms and handguns. It's just like. Could the prince. Could a special witness of Christ choose a different metaphor?

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:00] So he doesn't use it once? He uses it four times. Three or four times, like in his entire talk. He uses it at the beginning and then in the middle. This is not. This. This rhetoric is not like a mistake or a little messed up on words. This was the whole thesis of. Of his talk.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] What's he trying to do here? What's he trying to do?

Kyle Ashworth [00:39:22] I think this is the threefold mission of Elder Holland's speech. One is to. I think this is also. Again, this is the dog whistle. This is the dog whistle to that Orthodox crowd that says, I mean, how much of this sounds like Zion's camp? How much of this sounds like, rally the wagons, gather the troops. We're defending ourselves. We are going to war.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] But war is both defense and offense.

Kyle Ashworth [00:39:48] Bring your musket.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:39:50] Yeah. He doesn't say anything about offense or defense. He's saying, bring the musket.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:39:55] And I think this is solidified by the part that I wanted Kara to play and continue playing. And that is where he's saying, I will not go down on this ship without trying and without saving. And I think this maybe goes back to what Holland was talking about as a 7 year old boy seeing BYU for the first time. It was so ingrained and so entrenched in the fabric of Jeff Holland that he's saying, I don't care if this direction is right or wrong. This is the direction we're taking byu. As long as I have a say, that's where we're going. And I'm asking anybody who feels the same way I do to join me.

Kyle Ashworth [00:40:35] Because I think the most interesting part that he quoted there was that we hope it isn't a surprise to you that your trustees are not deaf or blind to those feelings. And I thought, I mean this again, Elder Holland is speaking to a specific group of people.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] Yeah, I. I just want to read. I don't think we played the earlier part of this musket. Quote. He says, in a way, scholars at BYU and elsewhere are a little bit like the builders of the Temple of Nauvoo. Did we play this part?

Kyle Ashworth [00:41:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] Yeah. Who worked with a trowel in one hand and a musket in the other. Today's scholars building the Temple of Learning must also pause on occasion to defend the kingdom or shoot people. Right. I personally think, and I don't think he's. He's intentionally advocating physical violence, although in a Desnat sort of context where there are alt right, orthodox Mormons who are constantly online threatening and intimidating with violence. And they've done it to me and they've done it to many other people. It's weird that he would choose violent rhetoric in that context. But he goes on to write, I personally think Elder Maxwell went on to say, this is one of the reasons the Lord established and maintains this university.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] The dual role of builder and defender is unique and ongoing. I am grateful we have scholars today who, who can handle, as it were, both trowels and muskets. And then he goes on to say, then Elder Oaks said challengingly, quote, I would like to Hear a little more musket fire from this temple of learning. So he's basically saying, I want professors to take up arms against the LGBT community. What else could he be saying?

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:22] No, he says that it's about them defending marriage as the union of a man and a woman.

Kyle Ashworth [00:42:27] Second part of that, that's.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:29] That's the same sentence that you were reading. So he clarifies.

John Dehlin [00:42:32] What does that make you guys? I'm sorry, I'm angry. What do you guys think about that? Am I misinterpreting it?

Kyle Ashworth [00:42:37] No.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] Am I getting this out of context?

Kyle Ashworth [00:42:39] No. So, again, I think this is the church using the LGBTQ community as ammunition, as fodder. And this isn't the first time this message has come across a pulpit from a general authority. If you'll remember, when Boyd K. Packer stood at the conference center pulpit and said he related the story about missionaries that he met, one missionary said that he had floored. He knocked out his companion, punched him, and he said, because my companion came out to me, told me he was gay. And remember what Packer said? Well, it was better that you did it. Not a general authority. I'm not saying a general authority should do that, but I'm not omitting it either. It's just another one of those just dog whistle clarion calls of it is okay to punish and marginalize this community or.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Or commit acts of violence. You know, physical acts of violence, certainly psychological, emotional, and verbal violence. You know, because like you said, Gerardo, what happens? What happens? Like Gerardo, how does this work? Holland gives this talk. A bunch of orthodox Mormon parents hear this talk, and then what is the ripple effect? Kyle and Gerardo, then Kyle, and then I want to get to the quote about the valedictorian student, but what is the ripple effect of this type of rhetoric to the lived experience of the LGBT youth or young adult in a parent in a family, we end up

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:08] getting ostracized by it.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] What's a parent going to say to the kid? I just heard Elder Holland's talk.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:13] Yeah, this is just not going to change. You're the one that is in the wrong.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] Parent says to the kid what?

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:19] The church is not going to change. The doctrines don't change, and you are in the wrong.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] To the kid?

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:24] Yeah, to the kid. Yeah. That's what the. The parents are going to be.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Because Elder Holland's what?

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:29] He's not opening any doors for any other interpretation rather than just the church has a right, everyone else has a wrong. And you must either enter into a Mixed orientation marriage or be celibate, don't even come out because he. He later, like, he'll talk. He will condemn valedictorian who came out as gay. And he mentions that. That's even. No, no. He uses the word commandeer. Yeah. And he. He uses the word. He says. So it is. And this is right after what we were just talking about. So it is with a scar tissue of our own that we're trying to avoid and hope all will try to avoid, language symbols and situations that are more divisive than unifying. And later. And after that, he just talks about this valedictorian. He's just talking about. Talking about being gay. Using the gay. The pride flag.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Rainbow flag.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:23] Yeah. Saying that. Saying that you're a homosexual, that you're gay. That. That's a no. No in his. In his.

John Dehlin [00:45:29] His view, which means be erased. Stay erased. Stay invisible. Stay in your closet. Stay erased. You know, and let's. Let's play the clip about Matt Easton. But, Kyle, what's your quick reaction?

Kyle Ashworth [00:45:41] This is Mormonism at its finest, or most horrific in terms of its treatment of LGBTQ people. I do want to just nod Holland for one piece where he says, we have scar tissue, which means that the church is recognizing that they wounded or were wounded, and there has been some healing happen there. And I thought that was notable because we rarely hear any type of discussion in terms of an apology or the church's acknowledgment of its history and the historical context behind its horrific treatment of LGBTQ people. Whether it was the. The investigations of the 50s, 60s, and 70s, the horrific shock therapy, aversion therapy, that was happening feet away from where Holland gave that speech, where they were shocking people, they were administering medications that were causing people to vomit in an effort to change their sexuality.

Kyle Ashworth [00:46:44] So your question. What does a parent say to a child in this situation? I think, fortunately, we're at a spot in Mormonism where a parent can recognize that BYU isn't the safest place for their queer kids and that finally, parents will look at that situation and say, we may not want to go to byu. And I think, again, that's the fear that the church has. The church wants to make BYU a prime institution, available and open. If not, they wouldn't have created this Office of Belonging. They want it to be a place where marginalized students may feel comfortable and feel like they have a home.

Kyle Ashworth [00:47:17] They've used those words before. Every gay member of the church has a place in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But where are those places when you continue doing. Saying that we're going to rally with muskets.

Kyle Ashworth [00:47:30] Where do I want to send my. I don't know that I have one, but gay child. Would I want to send them to a byu? That is wishy washy. And I think again, that's back to the problem.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] That might be the desired effect. I mean, if the brethren had their choice, would they rather find a way to elegantly filter LGBT students out of BYU so they're not causing problems?

Kyle Ashworth [00:47:50] Yes, they've done it since 1965.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] Yeah, they would want that. Okay, really quickly, when was Matt Easton? When was the talk, though?

LGBTQ Students at BYU and the Inclusion Office

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:59] Oh, 20. 19, 19.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] So two years ago, for those of you who don't know, the valedictorian at byu, Matt Easton is giving a speech. Is it a commencement address?

Kyle Ashworth [00:48:09] He's the valedictorian.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] He's the valedictorian. So he's given the valedictorian speech and he just happens to come out as gay. And no, that doesn't really change the lived experience at byu. But I sure know that. I thought that was kind of cool that he did that. It made national news. Didn't like, he even get on Ellen or like get some attention from Ellen.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:26] And he, he used the phrasing gay son of God. He didn't even frame it in a non faithful. Yeah, in a non faithful way.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:34] And I got it approved by the university.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:37] So like, it's not like he did this radical thing that was against the church.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] And I tried to get him to come on warm stories and he didn't want to because he wanted to stay faithfully engaged, which I respect. But I mean, so like, I just want everyone to just sit right before we play this clip and imagine you believe you're an orthodox Mormon. You believe that, that these apostles are prophets, seers and revelators that speak for God, that speak to and for God and Jesus. Right. What would it be like to be called out in a speech that goes global by a prophet, seer and revelator, literally singling you out as an individual, criticizing you as a prophet, seer and revelator of God to the world? And now we're going to just play that clip really quickly for all of God's children.

Guest [00:49:30] If a student commandeers a graduation podium intended to represent everyone getting diplomas that day in order to announce his personal sexual or orientation, what might another speaker feel free to announce the next year until eventually anything goes? What might commencement come to mean or not mean if we push Individual license over institutional dignity for very long. Do we simply end up with more divisiveness in our culture than we already have? And we already have far too much everywhere. In that spirit, let me go no farther.

John Dehlin [00:50:22] So, I mean, I'm just so flabbergasted that he would be so harsh and insensitive. But what do you guys think? Kyle, what do you think?

Kyle Ashworth [00:50:33] I just.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] What did you think about that?

Kyle Ashworth [00:50:36] So first, knowing Matt, you know Matt. I do. And that was my very first thought, was, oh, my gosh. I know the backstory. I know that Matt's commencement address was correlated. He ran that through all of the chains. It wasn't just a shock and a surprise that he just came out at the pulpit. I was upset that Elder Holland would throw Matt under the bus by using the word commandeering. That is a hostage style word.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] That is military rhetoric.

Kyle Ashworth [00:51:07] Military rhetoric. Saying that it was as if the church had no say in the whole experience, that here was someone who showed up, stole the show and pushed his agenda, which is something that the Latter Day Saints like to use against the LGBTQ community, and then opens the door to saying, here's the next great thing that Mormonism does, and that's create a boogeyman. What might happen next year if someone commandeers the pulpit? Would someone, someone possibly, perhaps, or maybe could come out and say, joseph smith married a 14 year old girl. Like, we can't have that. Like we. And that's the fear that the church is creating.

Kyle Ashworth [00:51:49] They're saying, you can't do what Matt just did. So setting aside just coming out as one thing, but. But in a public setting, I think this is a dig not only to Matt, which I think is calculated, and it was exactly what Holland wanted to do. But I think this is another gut punch to the administration at byu. I think this is Holland who was not able to reach the channels privately to show his disdain for the way that the church handled this topic, but then in a public way used Matt as a bludgeon to attack Kevin Worthen. I. My personal opinion is that's exactly what happened.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:29] It's just interesting that you mentioned that he's using war rhetoric because he goes and mentions the musket fire stuff. Just one paragraph after that. It's just. He's definitely trying to create this boogeyman and these and just get people worked up on this issue. And it's. It's just appalling. Is horrible.

Guest [00:52:50] Horrible.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:51] I just. I just. Yeah, I don't have.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Yeah, go ahead, Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [00:52:57] Just one second. The. The Last part where he says, there's already so much divisiveness and there's so much contention in this topic. My mom used to say, Crimea River. I kind of in the river right now. They used that almost verbatim language when they rescinded the November 2015 policy. If you read the press release, the church didn't pull the 2015 policy because they had a change of heart. Oaks specifically said it was because the members were too divisive and they weren't able to create a loving, kind scenario or situation for the LGBTQ community. So in that effort to help the members who were failing at their job become better, we pulled the November 2015 policy.

Kyle Ashworth [00:53:40] And then in rides White Horse Holland once again to say, there's already too much divisiveness. There's already too much culture here, and we have to undo that. Therefore, no more Matt Easton's, no more coming out, no more displaying your sexuality.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:54] Well, and what does that mean with. To, like, people like Ben Shloty, who's out. He's an honor code administrator. He has a book with pride with, like, a representation of the pride flag at Desert Book. Like, it's just. There is a lot of mixed messaging, and I don't understand how. How to understand it other than just the brethren have their. Their. Their ideas. And then there's. There's other people, like administrators at BYU who are trying to make it better, but these guys from the top are just pushing back.

Kyle Ashworth [00:54:32] Someone said, like, this is. This is an interesting way of the church saying, we're outlining how it is possible to be gay in the church or at byu. You can be gay as long as you're gay our way. And if you're going to create an Office of Inclusion and invite the minorities, which would be my community and my friends and Gerardo's community and our friends, and say, please bring. I'll quote Hinckley. Bring with you your talents. Bring with you your goodness. And let us add upon that. Let us support and build that up. But don't bring your rainbow flags, don't bring your liberal views, don't bring your language. All these things that he starts bringing

John Dehlin [00:55:12] up or your identity.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:13] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:55:14] So what shall I bring to your Office of Inclusion?

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:18] You're a son of God, period.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Yeah. Stay quiet, stay closeted.

Kyle Ashworth [00:55:22] Well, doesn't that negate the whole idea of a minority? Because aren't we all just children of God, then at that point, that there would be no reason for a minority office?

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:31] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Yeah. For me, there's just a Couple of things that are super wrong. Number one is I don't care. You know, like, let's just say that. Let's just say that he were to have said in his graduation speech, you know, I think the church's policy on same sex marriage is wrong. Now that would have been a really rebellious act even then, even if he had done that.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Elder Holland needs to know the power differential and the, and the scale of his platform. So for him to single anyone out, even if they actually did something wrong, that's abusive and irresponsible, given the power and the, and the mantle that he claims to have, speaking for Jesus. But then let's go further. All the kid did is say, I'm a faithful gay Latter Day Saint. He just said what he is. That's not an, a radical divisive act.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] So that's, that's even more awful. But then you add to it the warlike rhetoric and then claiming that he's being, he's commandeering to be divisive. Who's divisive? You know who's divisive? Boyd K. Packer is divisive. Dallin H. Oaks is divisive. This talk was divisive. The November 2015 policy is divisive. So Elder Holland, if you're going to be levying the charge of divisiveness and bemoaning the level of divisiveness within our Mormon culture and community, look at yourself, look at your prophet. Look at your first Presidency, first counselor, right? Look at your own house. Get your own house in order. Because people are literally dying over the rhetoric that you, Elder Holland, used.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] If you want to talk about not being divisive, Elder Holland, don't use warlike rhetoric as a, you know, supposed, you know, prophet, seer and revelator and special witness of Christ. So think about that, Elder Holland, first and foremost. Now, we've only got a couple minutes left. I know we have to wrap up there. There are, you know, where does that leave us? And I just want to give each of you guys a chance to make any kind of final points you want about what this means, because obviously, what does it mean to that gay that those don't. We know now that like 20% of the BYU student body is LGBT or gender diverse in some way. Like, where does this leave us?

Harm to LGBTQ Members and Community Response

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:57] This leaves us isolating a very large portion of BYU's student body and their

John Dehlin [00:58:02] parents and their parents and their friends and their siblings and all the people that are gaining. I mean, the church is hemorrhaging members worldwide. They're just like, inflict. They're like cutting. They're like stabbing their own arteries and they're bleeding out, and they're accelerating it.

Kyle Ashworth [00:58:18] That is my frustration in this whole Elder Holland discussion. It is that so many are looking at this topic, saying, this is a left issue. This is a right issue. This is Holland dog whistling to the right. This is Holland beating up the left. This is a centric issue. We are talking about real families within Mormonism, and we're talking about the bread and the butter of Mormonism. And you can't just appeal to the donors. You can't just appeal to the very orthodox faction of Mormonism. When you start discussing 20% of your student body, that's identifying somewhere along the LGBTQ spectrum, you're talking about a large swath of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] So they're not just hurting LGBTQ Mormons. They're hurting themselves. So what's the value in what he's doing? Who is he helping here? Literally, who's he helping?

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:12] I think they believe what they're. What they're standing.

John Dehlin [00:59:14] It's just conviction.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:15] Yeah, it's just conviction. And like a lot of preconceptions and ideas that they hold really strong. He. Elder Holland pretty much says that he's willing to die on this issue and letting BYU and the church die on this issue. Yeah, like, they. He's at the end of the talk. He says that he's willing to let BYU lose accreditation and lose whatever they have to lose before they change. Change their stance on this.

Kyle Ashworth [00:59:42] And that isn't the first time that that language has passed over in some leaked videos with the quorum of the 12, in discussion with other religious institutions, specifically the Catholic Church, surrounding gay marriage, Prop 8 of California, 2008, all the way through to 2013.

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:00] I, with the latter Gay Stories podcast, have got a whole reel full of these leaked videos. But they specifically said, we are willing to shut down our institutions. We will close the doors before we have to teach these liberal views of the world. And I think Gerardo is spot on with.

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:19] That's exactly what Holland is doing here. Looking at the LGBTQ history within Mormonism. If it's all wrong, if the church got it wrong, what does that say about their ability to be right on other issues? And if the church now they somewhat escaped in 1978 with the race in the priesthood, blacks in the priesthood issue, but if they get it wrong so monumentally with such a large portion, we're talking about 1 or less than 1% of the church in 1978, that were racially divergent.

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:51] But what about 20 or 25% of Mormonism or 50% of Mormonism that is impacted by a queer member of their family? If the church is wrong on that, what else are they wrong on? And I think that is one of the most damning things for Mormonism today, is that the church sees that, they recognize that, and they know that BYU is one of the institutions that is quickest to fall if they allow that in.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:16] I do want to say that whoever is watching this program that is still a believing member of the church and wants to say the doctrine in the church does not change, you really need to go and do your research. Like, there's a really good book called this Is My Doctrine. He will go through every single doctrine, core doctrine of the church, and how it has changed over time, ever since the restoration, ever since the New Testament, Old Testament. My point is they can change it. They don't want to. And, I mean, they just really wanted to.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:53] A statement that was really shocking to me just a few months ago that I read for the first time with a reporter, I think, asked Elder Oaks if he took responsibility on the LGBT suicides in the church, on the Mormon LGBT suicides in the church. And Elder Oaks response was, I'm going to answer that to a higher authority. Higher power.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] Yeah. God's doing this. Yeah. Yeah. So. So my, you know, my observation is that, yes, the church cares about the members, but the three things that the church really, really cares about is its money. And it's got hundreds of billions now. It's now a trillion dollar church. He's talking all about money in here. Yeah. It cares about its reputation through PR and publicity. But the most important thing the brethren care about is their authority, their perceived authority, that they are prophets, seers, and revelators that talk to God. Because if they lose that, they really lose everything. They lose the house. And so they're willing to die on this hill, and they're using war rhetoric because they're terrified that if they lose the beachhead of the LGBTQ sort of issue, they lose byu and then they lose their prophetic authority, because just like they got it wrong with polygamy, just like they got it wrong with blacks, now they get it wrong with the LGBT issue and who's going to pay attention to them anymore?

John Dehlin [01:03:20] And that's why they're willing to die on this hill. And that's what's going on here. And it's just so sad that the, you know, a special witness of Christ, the Prince of Peace is going to invoke war rhetoric, handgun use in a violent environment when LGBT youth are literally dying by suicide. It's just irresponsible. Really quick, Kara, this has been amazing, guys. You don't know this. We've had over a thousand people joining us continuously on the YouTube live stream, and that's before we even release it. I just want to give a shout out to everyone who's joined us. We've gotten some amazing comments. Kara, do you just want to share with us a couple points?

Guest 2 [01:03:57] And then I always love to find if there is an active Mormon in the comments, which there was. And there was.

Kyle Ashworth [01:04:03] As if there were one.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:05] There was one.

Guest 2 [01:04:07] And I wanted to write down their comment and let you respond to it. They said, the truth is divisive. Right and wrong is divisive. Stop celebrating being lgbtq. What's your response to that?

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:21] Well, you got to take that to your own prophets, years and revelators, because on their own website they have that it's fine for you to identify as lgbt. So what's right? What, what, what's the right answer here? Elder Holland is telling us it's wrong on their website, says it's fine. Like they can't even agree with their own. And it's going back to what I was saying. Doctrine in the church has changed since its beginning, since it began, and it keeps changing. And the issue is not right and wrong because like I'm saying, they're just talking. Elder Christofferson says, oh, it's fine for temple. Recommend holding members to support gay marriage and advocate for gay marriage, and they won't lose their recommends. That's fine. And they're faithful and they're fine. And now Elder Holland is saying that we have to fight it. What's right and wrong?

John Dehlin [01:05:16] Yeah, forever. The church would never even use the gay or the lesbian of the bisexual identity. Bednar was famous as saying, there are no gay Mormons. Something like that. And then finally, the church was willing to have the gay and Mormon or the Mormon and gay or Mormons and gays kind of websites. And then slowly, the brethren were willing to use the LGBTQ identity. Then the website saying, it's okay to be gay, you just can't do gay. In other words, you. You don't choose your same sex attraction.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] And so it's okay to identify as gay or lesbian or bisexual. Just don't act on it. But Kyle, as you know from. From the amazing PDF you have on latter gay stories called on the Record, this has been like 150 years of constant changing. That really does call into question their status as speaking for God and Jesus. Because if they're speaking for God and Jesus Christ, God and Jesus are kind of like bipolar, you know, I think. But, Kyler, do you have a quick answer to this comment? And then Kara may read one or two other things?

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:13] Of course I do.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] Yeah. What's the question again, Kara? Just so we give it to Kyle.

Guest 2 [01:06:19] It comes from just the general context that, you know, Christ. This is Christ church. Christ does not make mistakes. The truth is divisive. Right and wrong is divisive. And if you're celebrating being lgbtq, you're celebrating something divisive. And it's not appropriate at the Lord's University.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:33] Isn't it beautiful that some of us are able to thrive according to the order of our creation? I do believe that if Christ is indeed as perfect as this Latter Day Saint believes him to be, and that he doesn't make mistakes. He didn't make a mistake in my creation or Gerardo's creation or the creation of any of my queer friends or family members. And I also believe, and I 100% agree, that this is a divisive topic, that there is so much division surrounding this topic. And I also believe that religion is the cause of that division. And I believe that just like the family proclamation lays out what a good family should look like and, and how the framework of a family within Mormonism should be, there's a beautiful line in there that says, and other circumstances may apply.

Kyle Ashworth [01:07:25] I would classify my family and my structure as other circumstances. An individual adaptation is the word that the proclamation uses. And because of who I am and how I was created, our individual adaptation has worked beautifully. And that this well intended Latter Day Saint cannot tell me whether my relationship with my family is counterfeit or not, and the divisiveness is caused by religion who says that what I'm doing is unnatural? And I've said this on this podcast before. If walking on water is unnatural, then so is my sexuality. And neither of them are wrong. So if religion wants to believe that my sexuality is unnatural, then I say, so is walking on water. We're back to square one again.

Closing Reflections and Final Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Well, I want to give each of you just. If there's anything that you want to say to close. Okay, I'll just say this. I'm inspired by the Hippocratic Oath, which is do no harm. And I, you know, I, you know, Elder Holland Oaks Eyring, all you guys. Holland. I, I, I know, I know you, Elder Holland. I've had lunch with you twice. I dated your daughter. I knew you at byu. I took classes from you. Please stop harming LGBT people. Just stop saying harmful things. It's just. If you want to just not make affirming policies, if you want to stay silent on this issue. But I just have one request to the brethren. Please stop adding insult to injury.

Guest [01:08:59] Please.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] It's hard enough to be LGBTQ in this world right now. It's. It's death. It's literally deadly to be LGBTQ in the Mormon Church right now in 2021. Please stop making it worse with incendiary talks like this. And definitely, please stop blaming other people for divisiveness when you are the author of that divisiveness. Kyle, is there anything else you want to add?

Kyle Ashworth [01:09:23] I want to reach out to the LGBTQ community who might be at byu, wondering where they turn tomorrow, and also to the LGBTQ affirming faculty at BYU who wave their banners, who support the LGBTQ community. Coming up in a week and a half so at BYU is another Pride rally that's beginning on September 4th, a rally to bring together the queer community at BYU. I want to tell that community, continue. And the staff and faculty that continues to support them, continue.

Kyle Ashworth [01:09:57] I'm not a general authority. I'm not an apostle. But what I am is kind to humanity and kind to that group of people, especially the marginalized. And I want them to know that they aren't alone, that there are a number of people out here who support you. I want you to know that you're not broken, that there's nothing about you that needs to be changed or fixed.

Kyle Ashworth [01:10:18] There's nothing about you that is a contagion, a disease, abnormal or ineffective. That you're beautiful just exactly the way you are. And I want you to know that there's a whole community of people out here to support you. They may not be your faith leaders.

Kyle Ashworth [01:10:33] They may not be the people you call prophets, seers, and revelators, but look around for the helpers. Look around at those staff members at byu, staff members and faculty at other universities, online communities, your own family members and friends. There are people here that support you and want you to thrive. And the last thing that we want you to do is to become a victim of a musket ball.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] So for the show notes, give them three to five Facebook groups, organizations, your podcast, just so that they can know if this is an LGBTQ youth or student that's just kind of hearing all this for the first time. Just rifle off three to five Good Resources, communities.

Kyle Ashworth [01:11:15] Yeah. So specific to BYU there. There's the color of the campus, and there's a number of Instagram face. Sorry, Facebook and Instagram groups that are specific if you just type in in your Instagram. Byu. Lgbt. Byu. There is a USGA that cannot meet on the BYU campus, but does exist in Provo. There's Encircle that I think is vitally important for the Provo community directly there at BYU and in Salt Lake. And in Salt lake and in St. George and location opening up in Heber and Ogden and up in Idaho. So those locations are available. Those resources are available to parents. There are other resources available through Affirmation.

Kyle Ashworth [01:11:58] There are resources directly through the latter. Gay Stories podcast. We feature hundreds and hundreds of stories of LGBTQ people essentially there to find their community and help them to know that they're not alone. And one little side project that I would like to throw out just because this deals directly with what Holland talked about with too many rainbows. There was a Color of the Campus event. Same color of the campus was the same group of people that lit the Y@BYU. And the. An alt right organization at BYU said, We need to weather ourselves from the rainbow storm.

Kyle Ashworth [01:12:32] Bring your umbrella to BYU in solidarity against the LGBTQ community. When that happened, I ordered 2,000 rainbow umbrellas and I donated them to these LGBTQ student organizations. It went off so well that other people said, we want to buy these rainbow umbrellas. So we have a little. At latter Gay stories. We have our little rainbow umbrella campaign where if you buy an umbrella, we donate an umbrella to a student organization. And I would love to see that BYU campus not only here in Provo, but in Hawaii and Idaho and the one in Salt Lake covered in rainbow. Because I think that is a testament to Elder Holland that we're visible, that we're here, that we're not alone, and that we are looking for our community and that we will not be silenced by musketball or by doctrine.

Gerardo Sumano [01:13:28] Yeah, I just want to finish just saying that this is only going to change if the members keep supporting LGBT people, no matter what. What's coming from the top, it's just we've seen it with other issues is when it's enough pressure from all different angles that the church has been able to change in other issues. And I don't think this is the exception.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] All right, well, Kyle and Gerardo, you guys do great work, both for us and for the larger community. And you're both wonderful spokespeople. We need to. I hate to say this, but we need to get a lesbian. So we need to have some lesbian representation and some transgender representation. More on Mormon's story. So that's something that Kara and I are gonna have to work on. But. But Kyle and Gerardo, we're so grateful that you guys would take your time and come on and make this happen.

Kyle Ashworth [01:14:22] Thanks for having us.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:23] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Thank you so much. Kara. Thanks for running the. The board, the soundboard, the video, and for all you do.

Guest 2 [01:14:29] Yeah. Thanks for coming, guys.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] Made this possible.

Guest 2 [01:14:31] Yeah, we threw it together. We did. It all worked out. And all I wanted to add was that we have the Langs interview, the Lange families interview coming out tomorrow where they have two gay sons that came out in a family of a Mormon military family. And one of the beautiful, most beautiful things I've ever heard through these headphones in my months of doing this podcast is the dad saying that when his son came out to him, he realized that, oh, my son's not broken. Something else might be broken. And he realized it was the church. And it takes the love of a genuine father, parent, friend to listen and care and understand that these are not choices that our LGBTQ friends and family make.

Upcoming Episode and Sign-Off

Guest 2 [01:15:10] That. That these are just part of who they are and to accept them and love them. So I encourage everyone to check out the Lang's interview that'll be up Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, this week.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] Yeah. So it's a three part interview, 10:00am Utah time, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Three parts, all amazing. The two gay sons and the two parents. It's amazing. Anyway, thanks so much, listeners. We had 1100 of you joining us on YouTube. Share this Please share it everywhere. Support Kyle and his podcast. Support in circle. Support, affirmation, all the resources and just go. Love and support. Wrap your arms around the LGBTQ youth and young adults and adults in the church and let's. Let's help the church learn to. To do no harm and to move in the right direction and they can figure everything else out from there. Thanks, everybody. Take care. We'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast by.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.