Introductions and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Yeah. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 23, 2021, and I am so incredibly excited for today's Mormon Stories podcast episode. Today we have Mormon music EFY royalty in the studio. We have the Jesse Funk. Hey, Jesse Funk.

Jesse Funk [00:00:38] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Thanks for joining us.

Jesse Funk [00:00:39] I'm so happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] So some of you, many of you will know who Jesse Funk is. I have a couple close friends who actually took music, at least one who took music lessons from Jesse way back when. But long story short, Jesse Funk worked in kind of the Mormon EFY music entertainment industry for many, many years.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] And she's also kind of sung on the Broadway level. I know she was in the touring company of Footloose, and she's got several albums, she's published several books. She's led nonprofits. She is a mental health professional. Like, Jesse Funk is super cool on so many levels. And she just recently led a really incredible event, sort of an efy, especially for youth, for post Mormon children in Bear Lake that I was able to attend. And she's just cool for so many reasons. Jesse Funk, what are the. Tell us just quickly kind of your background just to have a sense for all the things you've done over the years professionally.

Jesse Funk [00:01:53] I think you covered it, John. That was an amazing introduction. So, yeah, I mean, just really started out wanting to be a singer. And we're gonna talk about it. I signed a record deal when I was 15. Like, wanted to be a pop star, but that was too materialistic. You know, so many people accuse me of being worldly. And so kind of the shame of that led me to going into LDS music and. Yeah, did three LDS albums and then a few.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] And what were they called? Or some of them?

Jesse Funk [00:02:22] First one was Clay in His Hands. Second one was Better than I. The third one was called Everything Speaks His Name.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Okay. Are these, like, on Spotify right now?

Jesse Funk [00:02:32] I'm not sure. That's an excellent question. And Deseret Book Never Liked Me. Would always try to not have my music available, but sometimes they're available there.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] And did you perform on EFY CDs?

Jesse Funk [00:02:46] I did five EFY albums.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] You did five EFY albums? Are there songs that you remember that people might know that you sang Steady and.

Jesse Funk [00:02:54] Sure. I think that was one year where that was like the theme. So I got to do the theme song.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] That's a big deal. Yeah, the number one. So you've sung on five EFY albums. That's amazing.

Jesse Funk [00:03:06] Yeah, it was super Fun. I'm very grateful for all those experiences. Taught me a lot.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] And you've written books too.

Jesse Funk [00:03:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] What are some of your books?

Jesse Funk [00:03:14] What are they all kind of self help books for teenagers. Teenagers are just my thing. So I've been working with teenagers for 18 years and I'm a therapist now but I've been a life coach for about 16 years and. And yeah, decided to get a degree in it. So yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] And today we're going to be hearing Jesse Funk's Mormon story and I'm super excited about that. But before we begin, I just want to do a quick public service announcement because you are holding an event for post Mormon women this week and there's still a few registration spots open. And let me just be clear on Mormon stories, we are all about just helping progressive and post Mormons heal and grow. So when I do kind of a, I don't want to say a commercial but when I promote something, there's no material motive other than just to help people. And what I know for sure is especially after Covid, there are so many Mormon post Mormon men and women that want and need support.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] They need community, they want to find friends and they want tools and tips and motivation and inspiration to help them process their faith transition and then heal and grow from it. And so I am going to plug this event at the beginning and at the end of this interview. Even though for most people who listen to this interview it will be way after the event's over, but the website may still be there. So really quickly before we actually jump into your amazing story, Jesse, will you tell people what this event is and how they can register?

Jesse Funk [00:04:44] For sure. So this is very like you said, very positive, very solution focused. It's not going to be a Mormon bashing session. It's just bringing women together, friendship, community, a lot of fun and a ton of mental health tools. We have so many amazing speakers coming. John Carah, Mark Osland, Chelsea Homer from Faith Journey Meetups, Facebook group and Leah Young. Yeah, it's going to be so much fun. So please join us.

John Dehlin [00:05:11] And the type of content is just

Jesse Funk [00:05:13] what just really motivational. Being able to process where we are. We'll definitely say, yeah, these are the things that were hard. We're going to make sure that everyone woman gets a chance to really share her story so that everyone feels seen, everyone feels heard. We all have a story. So just very, very focused on positivity and moving forward. That's very important to me as a woman, as a therapist. So yeah, you can get tickets@especastruth.com especiallyfortruth.com

John Dehlin [00:05:37] they can sign up there. How many seats are left?

Jesse Funk [00:05:40] There's only like 20.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] 20 seats left. And yeah, so if you are a progressive or post Mormon woman trying to process your faith crisis, I'm going to be there. Carah's going to be there again. Leah Young, Chelsea Homer, Mark Oslin, so many cool people. And Jesse is an amazing force for wisdom and truth and music and inspiration. So please go sign up for that and. All right, so thank you for your patience as we did the intro. Now I'm super ready to excited to jump in. We do have a live audience on YouTube. I'm really excited. We do want to invite comments and questions and observations, especially if anybody knows Jesse or, you know, whatever. We are super excited to have with us again back in the studio, Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:06:27] Hey. I'm so excited for this one. I keep saying that you guys need to just pay attention. Jesse, you're going to want to hitch your wagon to this star, as I like to say, with the events she's putting on and she's a powerhouse. It's going to be. This is going to be an amazing interview. I'm excited.

Jesse Funk [00:06:42] So sweet.

Carah Burrell [00:06:43] And I do not have false flattery. I told her when she walked in, I am Jesse's like number one fan, so.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] And Carah, I'm just grateful you're here. Carah does so much for us, but she monitors the sound and the video. She writes down time codes so that you can jump to these YouTube videos, see if they're too long or you want to go back to a certain portion, Carah, for these new videos. And we've got, my friend, I won't mention their name without their permission doing the old ones. But we're starting to put time codes in so you can jump to different parts of the interview, you know, cares doing that for us. And then of course, she provides important commentary and feedback and she's monitoring the chat and maybe she'll throw in your comments and questions for those of you joining us live.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] So for all those reasons and just because you're monitoring. Oh, also, Carah has been running our TikTok channel. So if you go to Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok channel, you'll see that we have, what, 62, 63,000 subscribers at this point? That's been all Carah. We're chopping up these Mormon stories, podcast interviews, sharing them on TikTok, and, and we're getting a great uptake from young people from, you know, Gen Zers, Gen Xers, and Even old fogies like me.

Carah Burrell [00:07:54] Yeah. And I just was telling John, it makes me feel really happy whenever we get a comment from somebody's like, oh, I just went back and watched in the entire four hour interview based on a clip, based on a clip from Instagram or TikTok. So I love when people.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] You're even going to the archive and doing some of the old stuff, right?

Carah Burrell [00:08:08] I'm trying to get to as many. I'm popping around, bringing out Sandra Tanner and just like all the good stuff I'm trying to, I've got what I call a pantry right now. I'm just like, just like a backlog of just fun clips I'm going to start putting up.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] All right, well, thanks for joining us, Carah. It's great to have you.

Carah Burrell [00:08:23] Yeah, thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] All right, so you are in for a, I would say powerful, uplifting, inspiring, maybe occasionally heartbreaking, but ultimately inspirational, epic Mormon stories interview. So, Jesse. Oh, and we have a piano here. And we are going to have Jesse, just like without a moment's notice, break into song. She's going to sing at least two songs for us in the middle of the interview and you're going to love her voice is just unbelievable. So all that and more, thanks for joining us. Where does your Mormon story begin, Jesse Funk?

Jesse Funk [00:09:02] Goodness. All right. I grew up in Provo, kind of a very, I don't know, typical, like, Mormon story. Provo, Utah. Had a really great childhood, amazing family, two brothers I'm super close to and just I adore my parents.

Jesse Funk [00:09:21] And I think like the Mormon story starts when I was about seven. It was right before I was baptized. And I, I am an all or nothing kind of person. Like, if I'm In, I am 100% in. And I wanted to be a good little Mormon girl, but I remember this mom so clearly. It was the first time I really experienced cognitive dissonance for the first time.

Jesse Funk [00:09:43] And I was seven because it was right before my baptism. So I'm sitting in primary watching my primary teacher give this lesson on eternal marriage. And she said, if you don't get married in the temple, you don't get to be with your spouse forever. And it hit me really hard. And I had an aunt and uncle, my favorite aunt and uncle who had never been Mormon. And they were married and they were an amazing couple and I adored them. And I just remember thinking they don't get to hang out in heaven, like just because they didn't go into a temple. They really love each other and they're like a Wonderful couple.

Jesse Funk [00:10:15] And they were always so kind and there were so many good things about these people, these humans. But if they don't go to the temple, they don't get to be together in heaven. They don't get to like, say hi to each other. That just did not compute for me. And I remember, like, looking at the kids next to me and I was like studying their faces. I was like, do they believe this? Because I don't believe that. Like, that doesn't make any sense. So that was the first time I consciously felt very real dissonance.

Growing Up Mormon in Provo

John Dehlin [00:10:42] Let me ask you, just backing up a tiny bit. So, so were your parents married in the temple? Did you have lots of siblings and kind of prior to that moment, to what extent did you kind of have the typical Mormon upbringing in Provo?

Jesse Funk [00:11:00] Yes. So my parents were married in temple. Two brothers I grew up with. I have a half sister. My dad was Marri before my mom, and she's great. So we just had a wonderful childhood. We grew up on the mountain, like east of the Provo Temple. So up on the bench.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Okay.

Jesse Funk [00:11:15] Yeah. So a lot of, like, high profile Mormon people up there. And.

John Dehlin [00:11:19] And we like being in a Mormon ward on the east bench of Provo in the 80s. Like, when are you.

Jesse Funk [00:11:27] We're in 84. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Okay, so you're in the late 80s, early 90s. You're on the east bench, Provo, east of the temple.

Jesse Funk [00:11:34] Yep. Pretty close to Stephen Covey's house. There were general authorities. Yeah, yeah, general authorities, yeah. I mean, like, I think there were a couple members of the 70 that lived in my ward at the time.

John Dehlin [00:11:44] So what are wards like this like?

Jesse Funk [00:11:46] It is exactly what you would think it was. There was. I remember feeling special because a lot of people made a really big deal out of all the really cool people that were in our ward. So I remember feeling like, oh, cool. Like I see them at state conference or I see them at church. But there was also just this pressure, like instantly as a child. You follow exactly what you're supposed to do. I remember one time accidentally spilling a sacrament tray and the bread just went everywhere. I could not stop crying. I couldn't stop feeling so, so sad about it. And I look back on it now and I'm like, what on earth? Because.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] Why?

Jesse Funk [00:12:28] Because I'd messed up.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] It was just kind of a perfectionist culture.

Jesse Funk [00:12:32] Yeah. You have to be quiet, you have to be reverent. You have to like. It was just such a. Such a huge thing inside me. I don't know where that came from my parents were super easygoing. It's not like they would have been, like, mad at me or anything, but that pressure existed no matter where it

John Dehlin [00:12:49] came from in the Provo word.

Jesse Funk [00:12:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] Now, care. Is this similar to your ward experience of Provo? I don't mean to make this about you, but, like, I. Do you know how close you were to.

Carah Burrell [00:13:00] Yeah, very close.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] You guys live geographically.

Carah Burrell [00:13:03] You would have gone to Provo High, right? So I went to Tempu. So you would have been just barely, like, probably on the other side of a street away from the boundaries. But, yeah, most people that I grew up with in high school grew up in that same type of neighborhood right up there by the temple. And it. I. I always think Mormon upbringings really come down to a lot about who your parents are, but then also your young women's leaders in this ward and sometimes the wealth that is influenced there. So, yeah, I can definitely see that. That there's the perfectionist thing going on there. My parents are, like, high school dropouts who. I don't know how they got into Provo in the first place, into such a nice neighborhood that we grew up in, but, like, yeah, I can definitely see that.

Jesse Funk [00:13:41] And there was a lot of pressure. I think she mentioned wealth. Like, we were lower middle class. We had a lovely house. I loved my house, but everyone around us, their houses were ginormous, and they had, like, the best of the best stuff. And. And so there was kind of this pressure to look a certain way and to wear certain things and the wealth absolutely played a role to look how to look successful, to, I don't know, look put together. It almost coincided with being a good Mormon in my mind. That's how. That's what I experienced. I'm really gonna try hard to only speak from my vantage point.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] So do you remember what primary. Did you enjoy Primary? Were you into the primary songs? Was primary fun for you?

Jesse Funk [00:14:23] Yeah, I really enjoyed primary. We had some wonderful teachers that, like, I remember one time they brought in a little kiddie pool full of water, and we were, like, trying to catch these little ducks. And, like, they made it really fun. And I loved the songs. I always loved the music.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] And what were your favorite primary songs? I have to always ask this.

Jesse Funk [00:14:42] I'm a Child of God was totally my favorite. I love that song.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Why?

Jesse Funk [00:14:47] I think I love the melody and I loved the words. And, yeah, it made sense to me. It was a simple song. You know, I'm a child of God. Like, he loves me and all that. All that jazz. I Loved those ideas. I loved how that resonated with me even as a kid. What is that song? Heavenly Father, are you really there? What's that one?

John Dehlin [00:15:06] Child's prayer.

Jesse Funk [00:15:06] Child's prayer. Thank you. I loved that song. That was my favorite.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] Okay. Did you like singing Time? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jesse Funk [00:15:14] And I loved the lessons. I was always, I think, a critical thinker. Always. And I love that about myself. I. I listened, I asked questions and I wanted to know things. I loved to study. I'm such a ner. Like, I just love. I love learning. And so I was always inquisitive and I always checked in with myself and said, how do I feel about that? Hey, that's a great idea. I love that, you know, and I think I'm really open minded. So I wanted to learn. I enjoyed church.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] Do you remember your baptism?

Jesse Funk [00:15:44] That is such a funny question. I was gonna bring that up. I have no memory, zero memories. And I don't have any pictures of my baptism. Isn't that interesting? And I took it so seriously. Like beforehand I remember taking it seriously, but I have no memory of my actual bapt. It's a little weird.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] So I think I read in the outline that your family hits kind of a rupture. Prior to that rupture. Like, was it just a normal Mormon family with like scripture study and family prayer and. And family home evening or. Not so much at the moment.

Jesse Funk [00:16:15] We had family family home evening, but not prayer and scripture study together.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Okay. But you do have family meeting. Okay.

Jesse Funk [00:16:21] Yeah, yeah. We had a wonderful growing up until. Yeah, probably I was about 10 when my mom left the church.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Okay, okay, okay. So overall, how would you characterize up until age 10, your kind of Mormon. Mormon experience?

Jesse Funk [00:16:37] I think super typical and very happy and I felt very safe. I loved my community. I loved going to activities. I felt. Loved all of those good things. Beautiful things.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Okay. And so then coming back to that point, you. You had your first kind of question when you started wondering about the. The teaching of eternal families and how it applied to what, what to anyone

Jesse Funk [00:17:00] that doesn't fit in the box.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Yeah. And you started having that question early on.

Jesse Funk [00:17:04] That was the first time I thought. So if someone doesn't do it right. Right. Or if someone doesn't do something perfectly, there will be a consequence. That was the first time I thought that.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [00:17:15] When I was seven.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Seven. Okay. All right. What else do you want to share about your Mormon experience or your family experience prior to kind of age 10 when things maybe fracture a little bit? Anything else?

Mom Leaves the Church and Teen Years

Jesse Funk [00:17:27] Yeah, I can't think of anything else. Yeah, it really was an idyllic childhood. I'm very close to everyone in my family. Beautiful. I'm so grateful for my childhood.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] So what do you want to share about what happened in your family?

Jesse Funk [00:17:39] Yeah. So my mom left the church when I was 10 and I watched her.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] She just left.

Jesse Funk [00:17:45] She had had so many questions, but never talked about it ever, because she knew what would happen. She knew that she would be shamed within an inch of her life. And she was. And I.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] Do you. Are you able to talk about why she left?

Jesse Funk [00:17:59] It's all the. It's absolutely like the shelf items that are going to be really common for everybody, like polygamy and the Book of Mormon. She found out about, you know, a lot of the plagiarism and, you know, the Book of Mormon, he didn't actually even translate. She really was confused by that. Like, we have pictures of Joseph Smith sitting at a table with gold plates, but that's not actually what happened. Rocking the hat and so what year

John Dehlin [00:18:23] would you have been? 10 years old?

Carah Burrell [00:18:25] 94. Yeah, I was paying attention.

Jesse Funk [00:18:28] Yeah. Good job. That is impressive.

Carah Burrell [00:18:31] Yeah. Yeah. Was there like something going on in the air at that time?

Jesse Funk [00:18:34] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] I don't know.

Jesse Funk [00:18:36] Until she found out about it.

John Dehlin [00:18:37] I mean, the September 6th with Sunstone and everything happened in 1993. So there would have been a lot of publicity around problems with the church, feminism, historians, everyone getting excommunicated. So I don't know if your mom was plugged into sunstone.

Jesse Funk [00:18:54] That is so interesting. I'm gonna ask her immediately after this. I don't know how she found out about those things. Yeah, I hope that that's what it was.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Okay. But for you, your memory is that it was definitely truth claims kind of

Jesse Funk [00:19:08] stuff for your mom and then just how she felt. She didn't fit in the box either. She was also a beautiful critical thinker. I love that about my mother. And she. She asked one time, she raised her hand in Relief Society and said, can we talk about Joseph smith marrying a 14 year old girl? What can we talk about in a

John Dehlin [00:19:27] Provo east beach ward in the mid-90s?

Jesse Funk [00:19:31] Yeah. And I have mad respect for my mother because now you can't do that now. But back then I imagine it was a lot harder. So she was incredibly brave and true to herself and she still is that way. I just respect her so much for that. And so, I mean, she got so much heat for it. So much heat for that. A lot of women actively saying, we don't talk about that. We have to just go along with what's told and we follow the prophet. We don't question. So I mean, it was exhausting for her and suffocating and she didn't have anyone to talk to. She didn't have these amazing Facebook groups. She didn't have ex Mormon TikTok. She didn't have the podcasts. She was alone.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] So what was that like between her and your dad? Whatever you're able to say about how her faith crisis aff the marriage and the family.

Jesse Funk [00:20:20] Yeah, I think there were a lot of issues in my parents marriage. They don't love to talk about it still. So there's still some things I don't even know, but it was a huge part of it and I understand my dad's position on it. And so it ended up with them divorcing when I was 13. But yeah, so the marriage was. It definitely ruptured the marriage. And then also her and my relationship because she left and I chose my.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] She left when you're 10. Okay. And then what happens with you? How'd you find out?

Jesse Funk [00:20:51] She told us she sat my brother's night. She just said, I can't force myself to believe it and I want to be honest. And I think she said all the right things.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] And that must have been incredibly hard for her back then.

Jesse Funk [00:21:07] Yeah. Yes. And I really respect it because it is so hard to say it now and that was so long ago. So I really. I can't even imagine how alone she was.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Parental support or siblings or friends.

Jesse Funk [00:21:20] No, no. My mom is so brave her entire life. That's a whole other podcast. Her resilience story is pretty incredible.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] So you were devout and into the church when your mom comes out to you at age 10 and says she doesn't believe anymore and your dad's still at this point an orthodox believer, so. Man, I'm just wondering how you process that.

Jesse Funk [00:21:41] I didn't process it well. I chose my culture over my mother. So all of these people that just came out of the woodwork to shame her and say, you are wayward, you are under the influence of Satan. You are. How can you be so selfish? What are you doing to your children? I mean, she just got sandblasted and I went along with the culture instead of defending my mother.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] So what went into your mind? Like how did.

Jesse Funk [00:22:07] I just thought I believed them. I believed what the adults in my life were saying, that she was just wayward and she was selfish and she was all these bad things. So I. I shamed her too.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] How'd you shame her if you.

Jesse Funk [00:22:21] I. I would ask her. I'd just be like, why can't you just go? Like, just to be with me? Like, I remember in young women's, like when I was 12, there were like mother daughter nights and stuff and I, I was so angry. I was just so mad at her. And I'm like, you're so selfish. You. Why, why wouldn't you come with me? And.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Oh, yeah.

Jesse Funk [00:22:37] So, I mean, just horrible things.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] Okay, can I be in your defense for a second? Because I've had. I obviously I lost my faith with, with my kids in the church and when you're a kid, you just want

Carah Burrell [00:22:46] to be a kid.

Jesse Funk [00:22:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] You just want to like, you don't want to be. Stand out. You don't want to be noticed. You're like trying to deal with acne and puberty and boys and like insecurities and hormones raging.

Jesse Funk [00:22:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] So in your defense, they had raised you in this.

Jesse Funk [00:23:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] You believed it because she and your dad had taught this to you. And you just wanted to have a happy, healthy, normal childhood, especially in a ward where there's a hyper focus on religiosity and perfectionism. I mean, I know that there's a part of you that probably wants to beat yourself up, but I just want to kind of be an advocate for that kid and say, man, well, what else are. What else is 10, 12, 13 year old Jesse Funk in Provo East Bench? What else is she. How else is she supposed to react in 1990, whatever.

Jesse Funk [00:23:34] Right, exactly. And you and I both know developmentally, when you're at those ages, the only thing that matters it is, is to survive and to belong and to have that belonging. So I chose my community over my mother. And that makes sense. Like, I know that now, and my mom and I have an amazing relationship now. And so she knows how terrible I feel about all this. And we have repaired it all. We've healed. And that's beautiful. But at that time, like, I just look back on it and I just think how, how powerful is culture that it can just wrap you up in this and you feel like it is life or death. And if you are not accepted by the community, you. It really does feel like a death.

John Dehlin [00:24:15] So how did that affect your relationship with her?

Jesse Funk [00:24:18] Yeah, I mean, at that time, she, I think she felt so alone that she just distanced herself from us. So when my parents divorced when I was 13, she's the one that left. And my dad raised us.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] She left.

Jesse Funk [00:24:31] She moved out and I think it was honestly because she felt like we didn't love her because my brothers and I. I mean, my brothers, I think, were a lot kinder than I was. I. Yeah, our relationship was so strained that I just. Yeah, I pushed her away. I was always angry. I was mean, and I shamed her.

John Dehlin [00:24:52] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [00:24:52] So, yeah, our relationship was terrible. And then she felt so alone. She moved out.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Like, that's for a mom to lose her kids or lose kind of custody of her kids. That's actually super rare.

Carah Burrell [00:25:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] What's more common, I think, is for the. The dad to move out.

Jesse Funk [00:25:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] And the mom to at least be able to keep raising the kids. How what that must have been like for the mom, a combination lose her faith and have to move out and lose custody of her kids and get divorced.

Jesse Funk [00:25:22] And what's worse was we had some really close family members tell us children that she abandoned us. And I believed them for a long time. I believed them. I thought, yeah, yeah, she did abandon me. She's so selfish. She's wayward. She's all these things. So there was so much shame wrapped around her.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] Did she disappear or did she still try and spend time with you?

Jesse Funk [00:25:41] She tried. She. She did move out, and she felt so alone. She felt so shamed and so ostracized that she didn't feel connected to us. So I don't blame her anymore. I don't. And she tried. She would call. She would say, can we hang out? And I was so angry at her for being so selfish that I pushed her away and said, no, I'm too busy.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Teens do that. Yeah, teens do that when everything's good.

Jesse Funk [00:26:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] Like, half of my kids during those teen years didn't want to do anything with me. And I was married. And I think, you know, Margi and I had a good relationship overall. Just so, like, to add normal teen stuff to this.

Carah Burrell [00:26:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:19] So you kind of estranged your mom a little bit.

Jesse Funk [00:26:22] Oh, yeah, I pushed her away. I shamed her. I disconnected us. I did that. I'm so sorry. So awful. And I. I have apologized to her so many times. We have really talked through it. And like I said, we have a great relationship now, and I'm just so grateful to have her in my life now.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] Okay. All right, so then how did your family life progress and your church life

Struggles in Middle School and High School

Jesse Funk [00:26:43] progress so about, like, maybe 12 to 14? I struggled so much. Like, I was a hot mess. I went to a different middle school than all my friends, and so I went to this. This new school and ended up getting, like, Severely bullied by one of my former best friends from. From my other elementary school. And it was so bad. Like, legit bullying. Like, some people are like, oh, that's like, bullying, you know, if it's, like, one thing. But this was, like, legit.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] They would mean girl stuff.

Jesse Funk [00:27:16] Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, all of the things. Gossip, rumors, isolation, manipulation, exclusion. Those. Those weapons that girls use.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] Random or.

Jesse Funk [00:27:27] I don't know if there was, like, a reason. I think I was. I was just targeted because this girl who was my former best friend, like, she kind of knew all my weak points. And I think she needed something. She needed a power trip.

Jesse Funk [00:27:38] But it was like they would punch me in the arm as I'd walk down the hall, pull my hair. One girl grabbed the back of my backpack, yanked me backwards. I hit my head so hard I passed out. They. They talked some boys into pulling me into a gym locker room. They dumped a gallon of hair gel in my hair, and they stuck my head in a locker room toilet, like, wanting it to, like, swirl up, you know, they called them swirlies back then. That has a different meaning now, but we can come back to that. So, like, all of these horrible things. Like, horrible, horrible.

Jesse Funk [00:28:05] Like, actual bullying. And I didn't know how to deal with that. And that was when my parents were getting a divorce, so that was hard. And then I was failing math and science, and I am such a nerd, so that was super stressful for me. So, like, all this pressure. Oh, and I was struggling with the beginnings of an eating disorder. I struggled with bulimia for three years. So, I mean, just a lot of pressure. Like, I was a hot mess, and I didn't know how to deal with it. And so my drug of choice was bullying. So some kids choose to cutting or eating disorders or drugs and alcohol.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] Became a bully.

Jesse Funk [00:28:33] I became the mean girl. Yeah. Regina George had nothing on me. I was so awful, I got suspended for it four times.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] You were bullying other girls?

Jesse Funk [00:28:42] Mostly, yeah. I was looking for ways to be mean to make myself feel better.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Well, you had you. I mean, I'm just trying to imagine this pressure cooker of Provo east bench mormonism in the 90s, and then your parents are getting divorced, and you're estranged from your mom. And did your dad get remarried? Did you have a stepmom?

Jesse Funk [00:29:00] He got remarried after I was married, so that was way. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] So you didn't have to deal with the stepmom at those high school years. But still, it's like, what an awful fishbowl of pressure to Then have all the Mormon dreams explode. And so that was. So bullying was how you coped with that?

Jesse Funk [00:29:18] Yeah, and it worked. It made me feel like I was in control of an out of control situation. And as a therapist now I can look at that and say, you know, some kids really do choose their drug of choice. It could be self harm or eating disorders or drugs or even suicidal ideation. Right? Or, or it could be gambling. It could be being a workaholic. Some kids choose church, some like. There's so many different forms of addiction, we all know that. But mine, I just wanted to feel like I was in. I mean, it was all the mean girl stuff. Like I would gossip and I would spread rumors that I knew were not true.

Jesse Funk [00:29:48] I was really manipulative. So, you know, if a girl I could tell, she was just really insecure, I would just say, hey, if you really want to be my friend, you'll let me copy off your homework. It's not a big deal. Why are you being weird about it? I was just mean. I was just mean. I would tell girls they were fat. I would like, I mean, make fun of girls with acne even though I had acne. I mean, it was so ridiculous and I. It fills me with so much shame to talk about it because it's so painful and there's no excuse for it and I completely own it.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Can I just say, most people don't own their stuff. Like the level that you are, you're just basically telling people like really vulnerable things. Right? Carah, is it. Does it surprise you to hear her just own that she was super now?

Carah Burrell [00:30:30] I mean, I think Jesse is a superstar and I'm not surprised that she's being so real and authentic right now at all. And again, this is not to like flatter you, Jesse, or anything. It's quite honestly just because I think you're extremely self aware and that you've grown up.

Carah Burrell [00:30:44] I don't know, it feels like you've lived four lifetimes probably already with the things that you've gone through at your age right now. So no, I'm not quite surprised, but I get. But what I was gonna say was because these are the types of things that in Provo, in the pressure cooker, there's a temple recommend interview of the things that the church wants you to meet the standards. But then in this teenage pressure cooker, just like, yeah, you're going through life and you're trying to see how you fit in. And I too, the, the, the worst sin I've ever committed. It's not drugs or anything like that.

Carah Burrell [00:31:15] Anything that would be. That would get you out of the temple. It really felt like it was the things that. It was the things of just being inconsiderate of people's feelings.

Jesse Funk [00:31:25] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:31:25] And that's not the stuff you compartmentalize. For some reason you don't realize that that just kind of being a mean girl is that. That should keep you. That should, you know, drive away the spirit. But that's. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Like, it kind of feels like you compartmentalize.

Jesse Funk [00:31:39] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:31:40] The rules of the church in one area and then.

Jesse Funk [00:31:42] Yeah, I've heard you talk about like the summer camp that you went to. Yes, yes, exactly. I mean, those are the things that matter in this life. And yeah, they're not treating. Temple recommend interview. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:31:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] I'm just super curious. So, Carah, when you hear her talk about being a bully and you think about either being bullied or knowing other girls who bullied, is that triggering for you to have kind of her talking about that and owning that? Is it triggering or like emotional for you?

Carah Burrell [00:32:09] Is it? No, it's. I think it's really. I think everything that we do on Mormon stories, I try to see how we can model healthy growth and behaviors and stuff. So I see that as like a really beautiful thing to be able to say. I was in a dark place. These are the conditionings, these are the reasons. And if you see somebody else being. Being bullied, you can see why their bully is possibly what's going on in their home life and everything that conditioned them to be in the situation where they feel like they need to act out like this. So I think it's really healthy to add this kind of context to the reasons why we do what we do.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] Yeah, that's so good.

Jesse Funk [00:32:42] And I. I think it's very relevant for Mormonism because a truly happy person has no need to be mean. They have no need for it. But a very unhappy person has a need. They need to feel like they're in control of an out of control situation. That makes a lot of logical sense. It's not excusable and it's not okay. But it helps us have some compassion and some empathy.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Totally.

Carah Burrell [00:33:03] And nowhere to get to work.

Jesse Funk [00:33:04] Exactly, exactly. And that's such a huge piece to the puzzle.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] Yeah. Okay, so. And bulimia, by the way, of all the, you know, disorders in the diagnostic and statistics manual for mental health, eating disorders are potential or the hardest to treat and sometimes the most fatal or dangerous. And so that's no small thing that you were engaged in bulimic behaviors.

Jesse Funk [00:33:31] Yeah. Yeah, it was really hard. I. I truly believed that if I was skinny, I'd be happy. Honestly believed it. Such a lie. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] Okay, so anything else you want to say about your high school years?

Jesse Funk [00:33:44] The junior high experience was super cool. And it kind of goes along with like, why I do the work I do now. So I got suspended four times in school suspension twice, and out of school suspension twice. And then the fifth time I was supposed to.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] What was the high school did you say?

Jesse Funk [00:33:56] I went to? Provo High. But this was a Centennial Middle School in Provo.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] Okay, Centennial.

Carah Burrell [00:34:00] Yeah. I went to Centennial too. You did? Yes.

Jesse Funk [00:34:02] Oh, my word. Kay. We're meant to be friends. So the fifth time I was supposed to be suspended. My amazing principal, Dr. Bayless, who is still a hero to me, is also my principal. Are you serious? K. Yeah. It really is a sign.

Jesse Funk [00:34:14] He was amazing. He was so wonderful to me. And he brought me in and he's like, I don't know what to do with you. Suspension is not working. Because it only made me more angry. It only put me further behind in my classes and I was already stressed about school. Like suspension I have major issues with. Anyway, so he pulls me and he's like, I don't know what to do. I'm supposed to suspend you again, but I don't want to. We're going to try something else. And he invested in me. He fought for me. And he said, I'm going to send you to a summer camp.

Jesse Funk [00:34:36] And it's like a leadership camp and they're gonna put you in charge of some stuff. And I'm like, what are you thinking? You are like high on something. But I showed up at this thing and two days in, it's like a week long camp for sixth graders. So I'm the only eighth grader there. And this woman comes up to me and just shoves a megaphone into my hand and she's like, hey, I need you to get on this megaphone and every like 10 minutes, I need you to announce to everyone at the camp, all these cute little sixth graders that it's time to rotate activities.

Jesse Funk [00:35:01] I think you'll be good at this. At this. And I remember that moment so strongly because I remember thinking, what? What on earth makes you think I'd be good at this? I'm a bully. I'm a brat. I'm a bad kid. Don't you know that? Didn't they tell you that the kids

John Dehlin [00:35:15] you could hurt the little kids.

Jesse Funk [00:35:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:35:16] You could be mean to them.

Jesse Funk [00:35:17] Yeah. So I'm like, you don't know? Like that's who I am. I believed that that's who I was. That's why shame is so insidious. That's why I'm like such a advocate for anti shame because. Because when we are shaming who someone is in their essence as their humanity, they start believing it. And I truly believed I was just a bad kid. I thought there was something wrong with me. My best friend didn't wanna be friends with me. That's why she was bullying me. Something was wrong with me.

Jesse Funk [00:35:43] And so. But I took that megaphone, I did the thing and I discovered something amazing. I loved the megaphone. I loved it. I loved it so much. And I was like so good at it. And all these cute little sixth graders would come up to me after and they were like, hey, Jesse, where do I go next? What's for lunch? I need a hug. I miss my mom. And I'm like looking around me and I'm like, why are you even talking to me? I am no leader, but this little voice in my head kind of said, what if you could be? What if you don't have to be bad?

Jesse Funk [00:36:09] What if you don't have to be a brat? What if you can rewrite the story? And that was a pretty amazing reframe. And I went back to that camp multiple summers as a counselor. This was in Provost school district. It was called Phase. It was just in Provost school district. It was the coolest program. But I went back as a counselor and then that's totally the reason I'm a therapist. Therapist.

Jesse Funk [00:36:27] And that's why I love camps. That's why we had so much fun doing Especially for Truth. So good for the teenagers. I just, I love it so much and I believe in it so much because it changed my life.

Early Involvement with EFY Camps

John Dehlin [00:36:35] You've been doing camps for how long then?

Jesse Funk [00:36:37] Well, I was a camp counselor, but. But I've been running a non profit for over 10 years doing camps.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] So if you add that to the camp Counselor.

Jesse Funk [00:36:44] Yeah, probably 14, 15 years.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] That's a lot of years of experience.

Jesse Funk [00:36:48] I love camps and I love the power of nature mixed in with it. Leadership opportunities, like I'm such a nerd about it. And Especially for Truth was so amazing for that reason. Like it was this immersive experience. And yeah, I'm so excited to do it again next summer.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] And Especially for Truth is Jesse's name for a post Mormon youth camp that we talked about at the beginning we'll talk about at the end.

Jesse Funk [00:37:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] And it was amazing. Okay. So should we talk about your music career? Sure.

Jesse Funk [00:37:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] Starting as a, you know, middle and high school.

Jesse Funk [00:37:17] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Or whatever was next in your time.

Jesse Funk [00:37:20] No, that was kind of.

Carah Burrell [00:37:21] Would you mind if I read a couple comments, too?

Jesse Funk [00:37:22] Sure.

Carah Burrell [00:37:23] Somebody's had a really beautiful comment, Jesse. Michelle said about your mom leaving the church that. She also said, I'm the mom that left the church. My husband and I divorced and I moved out. To hear you call your mom brave makes me cry. I hope my kids feel the same way.

Jesse Funk [00:37:38] That just gave me chills. That's like, I want to do that.

Carah Burrell [00:37:41] That was a super chat. So thank you for all of the people in the chat who have been donating money during this. So it's been great.

Jesse Funk [00:37:47] Oh, that seriously makes me want to cry because I. My mom, like, once I apologized for the way I treated her once I. Once we were able to talk about it, and this has been decades of her feeling so alone and so shamed and so sad about all of it. And once we could talk about it and I could say, you really were so brave, like, that'll make me cry. Like, she needed that peace in her heart, like, so bad to start healing. Anyway, so that comment means a lot. Lot.

Carah Burrell [00:38:19] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:38:20] Thanks, Kira.

Carah Burrell [00:38:22] Thanks for sharing that, too, Jesse.

Jesse Funk [00:38:25] Yeah. Okay, so, yeah, when I was about, like, 15, that's when I really wanted to try to be a singer. And I signed this record deal and I moved to Orlando, Florida.

Beginnings as a Singer and Performer

John Dehlin [00:38:36] No, no, no. You don't just, like, sign a record deal. Like, how did you. Did you take lessons?

Carah Burrell [00:38:40] I was walking down the street one day and somebody said, you got it, kid.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] It's.

Carah Burrell [00:38:44] You're a star.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Was it, like, Marie Osmond? Did you take lessons? Were you in choir?

Jesse Funk [00:38:49] Yeah, so I started taking lessons when I was 6, and I, like, fronted a little country band when I was

John Dehlin [00:38:55] 10. Who were your inspirations as a kid?

Jesse Funk [00:38:57] Oh, my God. Kay. Celine Dion, Whitney Houston. Mariah Carey, Carah and I just talked about this at a party the other day. Oh, my word. Those women, their voices.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] Who is better, Whitney or Celine or Mariah?

Jesse Funk [00:39:09] That's a mean question. I'd say Whitney, your favorite. I loved Whitney Houston. Oh, my God, I loved her.

Carah Burrell [00:39:18] The only thing that Mariah. Mariah can do, I think the whistle notes.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:39:22] So she's got that extra talent.

Jesse Funk [00:39:24] But they're all.

Carah Burrell [00:39:24] They all have it.

Jesse Funk [00:39:25] I know.

Carah Burrell [00:39:25] They're all out of this world.

Jesse Funk [00:39:27] Divas. They're just world class. Good grief. Yeah. I I loved music, and that was such a refuge for me. It was such a safe place. It was so. I don't know, it was. It was the place I would go. Singing was my coping skill when I was stressed.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] So you were taking lessons every week?

Jesse Funk [00:39:45] Disciplined. I was competing in contests. I was in every pageant under the sun.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] Was it your dad driving you everywhere?

Jesse Funk [00:39:52] Mostly my mom. Yeah. That was kind of a fun thing my mom and I did together before she left.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Okay. Okay.

Jesse Funk [00:39:58] Yeah. Because she didn't leave until I was about 13.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] So she was important part of your early music career?

Jesse Funk [00:40:02] Oh, yeah. Oh, she was so wonderful. She was so supportive. Sometimes pushed me a little too hard. She knows that I could say that with her sitting here. Like, there were times where it was too much pressure for a kid.

John Dehlin [00:40:12] She a performer before you? No. Okay.

Jesse Funk [00:40:15] No. But she was a great little manager, and she. She pushed hard, and I'm super grateful for it now. At the time, it was kind of hard sometimes. I wanted to be a normal kid, but I would miss school to go perform. I was doing commercials. I was like. She was really, like, creating some amazing opportunities for me that I'm so grateful for now. So I was, like, really pushing hard from probably six or seven. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Okay, so you're in competitions, you're taking lessons. Are you, like, singing in church? What other ways you like up until your contract? I guess, yeah.

Jesse Funk [00:40:47] I sang in church all the time, and I enjoyed that. I always felt so nervous. Like, I would not get that nervous in front of, like, thousands of people. But my sacrament meeting freaked me out. It was so, so hard because I wanted to be perfect. Wanted everything to be, like, reverent. So I always felt like I needed to hold back. I couldn't be at as loud as I wanted to be, you know, Couldn't embellish. Couldn't add, like, cute little riffs or anything to the song. Had to keep everything very straight. Yeah. And so I felt that pressure a lot. Like, I gotta be more quiet and hold back. But, yeah, I was singing all the time. Singing was my thing.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Okay. Really quickly. Like, I loved Mormon pop music. So before age 15, before, were there. Was there Mormon pop music that was out that inspired you or had that all not started, like, EFY albums or like, Janice Cat Perry? Like, I'm thinking my mission was 90, 88 to 90 and serving with Joy had already come out with Janice Cat Perry.

Jesse Funk [00:41:45] Like, I remember Janice Cat Perry's stuff, but I don't remember anything.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] Like, like, in the hollow of his

Jesse Funk [00:41:52] hand or like, yeah, Kenneth Cope maybe

John Dehlin [00:41:54] like what about like afterglow?

Jesse Funk [00:41:56] Like I, I don't remember afterglow. Then I'm not sure when I like really became aware of like an LDS music industry.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] That wasn't part of your upbringing really?

Jesse Funk [00:42:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Okay. I would sing in church or even Julie Diazevedo.

Jesse Funk [00:42:10] Yeah, I loved her, but I just don't remember thinking that that was a thing. So I didn't like seek it out. I wanted to listen to Whitney and Mariah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:42:18] Okay, but you still the 90s.

Jesse Funk [00:42:19] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:42:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:42:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Okay. So you. Okay, so now how did that lead to a recording contract?

Jesse Funk [00:42:28] So I was performing at a center stage. It's like a dance studio. But we, I had this like singing and dancing performing group with a bunch of guys and girls and we went on some tours, we went to Hawaii, we went to California, performed at Disneyland and one of the guys musicals.

John Dehlin [00:42:44] Were you ever like in musicals?

Jesse Funk [00:42:45] Oh yeah, I loved musicals. Yes. I was in a few of them. I starred as Heidi in the American Fork Community theater presentation of Heidi. I like, yeah, school stuff, you know, kind of just community theater. But I love theater. On my word. Yeah. And so one of the guys in our performing group, his dad was this multi millionaire who I guess was bored and he's like, hey, let's start a record record label. And he said, I want four of the boys to be like the next NSYNC or Backstreet Boys. And then he just chose me and he was like, you're gonna be the next like Britney Spears. And it was right when Britney Spears had become really famous. So we move Orlando, Florida, these four boys and me. What, by ourselves? When I was 15 years old.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Dad let you just leave?

Jesse Funk [00:43:30] He didn't like it. But I was so headstrong and my mom was really pushing it hard because she believed in me and I really wanted it. I totally wanted it. I honestly thought I could like be famous and like make all this money and I like really thought I could do it.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] Who are you living with?

Jesse Funk [00:43:45] We lived with one of the boys moms, but she was, was terrible supervision. She was out getting drunk every night. She would come home at 2 or 3 in the morning. So we literally had no supervision. So imagine four beautiful 17 year old boys and one 15 year old girl.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [00:44:00] Recipe for disaster.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] And I was like without parental supervision.

Jesse Funk [00:44:04] Yeah. Yeah. And so that's where I tried alcohol for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] And like weren't these Mormon boys? Mormon boys don't drink.

Jesse Funk [00:44:10] Oh no, no. Never. Nope.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] For our non Mormon listeners, they're thinking Mormon boys don't drink. Is that.

Jesse Funk [00:44:16] No, that's. That was a joke. They do.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] They were bad boys or just normal, developmentally appropriate boys that were goofing off. What was it?

Jesse Funk [00:44:25] Who went to church on Sunday and acted like nothing happened? Yep. Yep, exactly. And I did, too. I was right along with them. I own my behavior. I was making terrible choices. And, like, I was. I really.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Okay, just to be clear, like, normal people who aren't raised in a high demand religion are not going to say that trying alcohol in their teen years is a terrible choice.

Jesse Funk [00:44:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] So are you saying terrible from a Mormon.

Jesse Funk [00:44:50] From a Mormon girl, from a Mormon

John Dehlin [00:44:51] standpoint, or are you saying that that setup actually was conducive to unhealthy choices?

Jesse Funk [00:45:00] It was both, definitely. Yeah. Like, a good Mormon girl does not ever drink alcohol ever, but especially not when you're 15 years old. And then the. It was such a recipe for disaster. The situation, it was so bad. And the people that I was with were so toxic. The father of one of the boys that was putting everything together, he was the manager. He was the one in charge. I was always walking on eggshells, trying to please him, trying to make him happy. He would yell and just, like, lose his mind if I made one tiny little mistake on a song or if I had to take songs over and over again in the studio.

Jesse Funk [00:45:35] He was so impatient with me, and I struggled with this eating disorder. He didn't know that. He came up to me one time and just grabbed the side of my body, like much skin as he could get into his big hand. And he said, jesse, you're never going to make it unless you lose some weight. You're way too fat. So I. All of these things and you were

John Dehlin [00:45:51] still going through body changes.

Jesse Funk [00:45:53] Oh, yeah, yeah. And I was bulimic at that time, and he didn't even know that. And so that just sent me into this total tailspin. I was so depressed, I couldn't see straight. And I'd never experienced a depression before. It was suffocating and terrifying because we didn't talk about it. I didn't know what it was. I just felt so, so sad and so scared all the time. And I think I. I was hesitant to share this, but I'd like to.

Jesse Funk [00:46:18] I think one of the ways I coped with that was these boys. They were my best friends. I had been friends with them for years. We were very close. But I think I was so lonely because I was aware away from my family, I was feeling so isolated. I was feeling so Ugly because I was so fat that apparently that's my sarcastic voice. And I was a very healthy 15 year old girl, but I really believed that if I wasn't skinny, I wouldn't be successful. And so I kind of found refuge in really flirting with these boys and, and kind of egging them on a little bit.

Jesse Funk [00:46:52] So I, I hold a lot of shame for being molested by one of them and I feel like it's still my fault. And I think in a way it was. But I've never, like, even up until maybe two years ago, I never let him take responsibility for his part in it. So thank heavens for therapy and I'm talking about that more. But I've just held this deep, deep shame. And that's, and that's something I feel like is not definitely not talked about enough in the church. We don't talk about sexual assault, we don't talk about healthy boundaries, we don't talk about consent and processing, all of that.

Jesse Funk [00:47:28] And, and definitely we don't understand patriarchy. And this was the first time I really understood how patriarchy worked because I held this, this overwhelming fear for so long that someone would find out or that, that I was so bad that I would mess his life up if, if anyone ever found out. I mean, I was just consumed by it and he didn't care. Like it was just no big deal to him. And then a few years later, I showed up at his mission farewell and I thought in my very naive mind, he would come up to me and say, hey, I want you to know I'm really sorry.

Jesse Funk [00:48:04] I, like, I'm gonna go on a mission. I want to, I want to do good things now. Like, I honestly believed that there would be some kind of exchange of something happened and I want to own that and nothing, like no ownership whatsoever. And I was dumbfounded, like, just astounded at the possibility that I've been holding all this tension for so long. And he, he didn't even acknowledge that anything had happened. So I felt so used, obviously. And, and then I realized, oh, okay, that's how this works. The men, men don't care about that. Like, it's not a big deal to me. I thought it was my fault and I thought that I was a terrible person.

Jesse Funk [00:48:47] I, I flirted with them and I like kind of egged them on a little bit. Like I would like, you know, go and like jump on their backs and, and just be kind of of a flirty little 15 year old girl. And, and so we, we just kind of flirted like that a little bit. But they were like my brothers and they were like my friends. And so it wasn't a sexual thing to me. To me, it was. I needed connection, I needed friendship, emotional connection. Yeah. But it was. I was definitely acting in a very flirtatious way that I'm sure they interpreted as a sexual advance.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] And to this day, Mormon youth can't be taught about. About consent because they're not supposed to have sex. And so it's just like, sex bad, porn bad, masturbation bad.

Jesse Funk [00:49:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] But there's never a talk about how to treat a woman from a boy's perspective in a healthy, consensual way. Just like contraception or birth control is never talked about because you're not supposed to have sex, or we're never going to talk about birth control. And what that leaves is legions of Mormon youth assaulting or abusing or even sometimes date raping, you know, particularly men on women. I'm guessing when that happens because there's just no education.

Jesse Funk [00:50:01] Exactly right. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] I'm so sorry that happened.

Jesse Funk [00:50:04] Yeah, it's a big deal. And I. I really feel like it's part of my story because if I had had any education, if I'd been. If someone would have explained consent to me, I would have received that. I would have understood that. I would have known, oh, okay, I have permission to set boundaries, but I. I didn't feel like I had permission for some reason. And I do blame the system for that. I do. I do. Because we don't talk about it. We don't. And then I also believe that the. In our church, in our culture, there is so much that the church wants to be the one to teach.

Jesse Funk [00:50:38] So it's almost like we don't encourage families to talk about certain things at home. So. And then we're definitely not getting enough at school. So, yeah, I blame a really broken system. If we had more education. And I actually have a lot of hope that these are the types of things. If we talk about this enough, I think there's got to be a day where the church realizes, hey, maybe we should add some curriculum around boundaries and consent and healthy relationships. Maybe we should do that. And I don't think it's actually going to happen, but in my mind, I'm like, that's something that could actually be fixed. I think there's hope for that, but I know it's probably not logical.

Carah Burrell [00:51:12] No, I definitely think that's. That there's a lot of things that we want to push the church forward on and I do feel like that is an easy one. But John's right, that it's like, oh, that opens the door. Our teen's going to be thinking about how to do these things. But I think to survive, like, just the amount of abuse and from a systemic level in the church, some things are definitely going to have to change. Like, things are going to be hitting the fan. They say yes, and I'm super embarrassed.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] I just framed consent as the men need to be taught about consent, but a Mormon girl needs to be taught that she can say no, like you said, that she can fight for herself and protect herself and defend herself, and that she can say no to a man or a woman or whatever. Like, consent goes both ways. Women need to learn consent so that they can learn that they are empowered to be their own autonomous individual being.

Carah Burrell [00:52:05] And that goes into marriage, too. We talk about that all the time. That like, like Mormons, they want healthy marriages more than anything. The church has such an emphasis on marriage, and that still carries over into when you are having sexual relationships in marriage. Boundaries, consent, all of those same lessons, if we've started, doesn't even have to be teaching teenagers church. Here's a lesson you can start with just talking about it with the marriages. That's something I had to even like, oh, okay, I understand. Like, your brain just kind of needs to be expanded to what your rights are as a woman, of what boundaries you're allowed to put in up.

Carah Burrell [00:52:35] And then in the patriarchal system that we're raised in, sometimes what we want as women is really, like, on the back burner, short shrift. Like, it's really not at the forefront of a lot of people's minds, unfortunately. But the more people speaking up, I think good changes will happen.

Jesse Funk [00:52:51] Yes, exactly. So that's why I. I was so scared to do this interview. But I thought these are the things that need to be talked about, and these are the things that I want my own children to hear. So I just feel like that's so important, such a big piece. And I also think for me personally, like, in that situation, it was survival in my mind. That's how I look at it now. And I give a lot of grace to that little girl because I think if I didn't have the connection with those boys, I didn't know if I would survive there. So it felt very life or death to me. So I do give her a lot of grace. I don't hold shame for myself anymore anymore.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] I'm so. I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [00:53:30] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] And I'm so sorry that happened.

Jesse Funk [00:53:32] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] Yeah. So did. Did you get any treatment for that? Did you, like, did you feel like you needed to confess that? Like, did you just keep that secret?

Jesse Funk [00:53:45] I kept that one very closely guarded for probably a solid decade. And even then, I didn't talk to a bishop about it. Like, at. At that point, I was like, yeah, that wasn't my fault. Even if I was a flirtatious girl.

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Okay.

Jesse Funk [00:53:58] No. There was still no excuse for him, what he did.

Entering the LDS Music Industry

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Okay. So how did you guys put out an album? Did you guys tour? Like, what happened in that Florida venture?

Jesse Funk [00:54:08] I only lasted four months.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] You didn't become the next Britney Spears.

Jesse Funk [00:54:11] Oh, no. And I'm so grateful. So I lasted four months, and I. I was so depressed. I was so depressed. It was so stressful. It was so overwhelming. And I love to sing, but I don't love singing that much. Like, it was not worth the toll it took on my mental health. So I was like, if that's what fame takes, if that's what, like, success is, I don't want it.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] Were they mad at you for.

Jesse Funk [00:54:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] Coming back?

Jesse Funk [00:54:33] Yeah. They wanted to sue me for breach of contract and all the. All this crap, and they didn't end up doing anything. But I was just like, I need to go home. I can't. I can't be here.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] Did the boy band become the next Backstreet Boys?

Jesse Funk [00:54:43] No, no, no. But they stayed for a year. Like, they really gave it a good try, but I was like. And peace out. I mean, done.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] Okay.

Jesse Funk [00:54:50] But it was a great experience. Honestly, I'm glad it happened. I really am. I learned so much about myself. I learned so much about boundaries. I did. Because after that, I was like, I don't want to be in a situation anymore ever again where I. I truly feel like I just have to please everybody. And I'm constantly catering to. To how everybody feels. So that was kind of the beginning of a deconstructing about being a pleaser. Because I'm. I just love people. I love everybody. I. I love human beings.

Jesse Funk [00:55:17] And to constantly try to make everybody happy, that is so unhealthy. That's just so unhealthy. So, yeah, I just learned a lot. And I had a ton of fun. I mean, I got to do some amazing things. I got to meet all these famous people, and. And I got to sing in a beautiful studio.

Jesse Funk [00:55:33] Let's see, back then, there were, like, all these little boy bands and Britney Spears people that were. That were there. I did meet JC Chase from NSync. And he was like, oh, Carah, you get me.

John Dehlin [00:55:46] Like, Carah's impressed.

Jesse Funk [00:55:47] I honestly, if he could really get to know me, we would, you know, end up together. He was so gloriously handsome and his voice melted me like butter. So, yeah, I mean, like, some people like that. I honestly can't think of anyone else, but it was just so fun to. I was performing, I was. We did like some commercials and so it felt exciting and fun, but it just wasn't worth the price.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] So what happened next?

Jesse Funk [00:56:12] I came back, came back home and I thought, okay, well, if I'm not going to be a pop star, but I love to sing, what else can I do? I guess I. I'll try my hand at singing for the church. And jumped right into that almost immediately after.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] Cause I had asked you previously if you had grown up listening to church Mormon pop and you said no. So how did you all of a sudden fall into an industry that you didn't grow up a part of or listened to?

Jesse Funk [00:56:36] Yeah, great question. So there was a producer who had produced one album that was like a whole compilation of different singers. And I don't even remember any of their names now. They weren't, they weren't like kind of high pro profile LDS people at all. But I was like, hey, what if I could just do some. Something like that or even be a backup singer? Because I had done a lot of like studio stuff, just recording studio things. And I loved that. And so I just reached out to that producer and I was like, hey, if you ever need a singer, here's like a little CD of stuff I've done. And then he was really, really sweet to me, so kind to me, and instantly took me to this company, Sounds of Zion.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] Okay, well, okay, what is that?

Jesse Funk [00:57:17] It was a company that was kind of like Deseret Book, but a lot smaller. And they were Deseret Book's biggest client and their biggest customer. And then Deseret Book ended up like completely just pushing them into the ground. It was so awful. It was a wonderful company.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] Themed music and sell it through.

Jesse Funk [00:57:35] Yeah, so they did a lot of books, they did a lot of CDs. They were just fantastic. Like, so wonderful to work with. The owner of that company was so good to me. And yeah, I loved it. And so I got to do three albums with them.

John Dehlin [00:57:46] Okay. And that's it. So what was that like kind of joining into that industry and trying to make sense of it and spirituality, but also commercial, but, you know, Mormon.

Jesse Funk [00:57:56] And I enjoyed it. I am so grateful for it. But it was brutal. Like Deseret Book. I have no problem saying this stuff because, like, the way they treated so many people in this industry, including booksellers. We, we would go and perform a whole bunch of the Sounds of Zion artists and I would go and perform all over the country. We, we performed with Orrin Hatch in.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] Would we know these people? Would we know any of these artists?

Jesse Funk [00:58:25] Like Janice, Cat Perry's son, Stephen. Cat Perry.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] You knew Steven.

Jesse Funk [00:58:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] Loved his stuff.

Jesse Funk [00:58:30] Right. So him and his wife, Joanne. Tanya Barkdoll. Her voice is amazing. Barry Hansen, Greg Hansen was the, the producer that I talked about, who I, I deeply respect. I adored him. Let's see. Joy Gardner. She was in a bunch of LDS movies and then had a beautiful voice also. Yeah, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. Just great people. I loved hanging out with them. And we, we went and performed with Orrin hatch in Washington, D.C. we went to Kentucky, we went to Texas, and we were just doing all these fun LDS shows. And I loved it. I enjoyed it so much. But then I started noticing, like, the rift between Sounds of Zion and Deseret Book.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] Ooh. So, like, commercial drama.

Jesse Funk [00:59:17] Yeah. It was so frustrating. Like, they would buy 500 copies of my CDs and then only keep like a hundred and then just ship the rest back, which is totally unethical. But I would, I. That would affect my royalties. And not that we make any money anyway, but, like, that would affect my royalties. And it definitely affected the company of Sounds of Zion. But since they were their biggest client and their biggest customer, it just, it created so many hard.

John Dehlin [00:59:45] So would you say that they were kind of sleazy?

Jesse Funk [00:59:48] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:48] 100% desert book was sleazy.

Jesse Funk [00:59:50] Yes. They were unethical in so many ways. And I don't mind saying it because they hurt people that I cared about so much that, like, they were just trying to do a good thing. They would go and build Deseret bookstores right across the street from an independent book sale seller. And I used to go to, no, like, independently owned, like, mom and pop shops all over the country. And I used to go to the, the booksellers convention every single year and sing and they. I, I won some awards there. And like, those independent booksellers were so kind and so wonderful and they would build a Deseret bookstore right across the street and put them out the business. Like, I mean, just completely dishonest, honest, totally unethical. That's not okay.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] And I mean, part okay. I'm trying to play devil's advocate. So part of me is thinking, yeah, that. Well, that's business. Like, if you want to be successful in business, you. You do what businesses do. On the other hand, I'm thinking, this is Jesus's business, and Jesus would be more loving and kind, and maybe that's naive. I don't know.

Carah Burrell [01:00:49] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:00:49] I don't know. It is business, and I get it and whatever, but it's just. It was so frustrating. But then, like, little things. Like, I would have friends that say, I can't find any of your CDs anywhere. And Deseret was. Would specifically keep my CDs in the back and not have them out on

John Dehlin [01:01:03] the shelves because they wouldn't make as much money off of yours as they would their own artists.

Jesse Funk [01:01:07] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:01:09] Was this when Mindy Gledhill was also doing her thing?

Jesse Funk [01:01:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] Were you guys around the same time?

Jesse Funk [01:01:12] Yeah. And Mindy. Mindy and I went to high school together.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] Oh, yeah? That's cool.

Jesse Funk [01:01:18] I was friends with her younger sister.

Carah Burrell [01:01:20] Provo's where it's at.

Jesse Funk [01:01:21] That's right.

Carah Burrell [01:01:21] Got me, Leah, Young, Indy. Everyone's there.

Jesse Funk [01:01:25] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] It's like a Provo reunion.

Jesse Funk [01:01:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:27] Okay. As I understand it, you may not know this. I think Mindy started out working with Deseret Book and then just said, I want to do my own thing. I don't think she had a great experience.

Jesse Funk [01:01:37] She didn't? Nope. So, yeah. And I wanted to be a part of, like, Timeout for Women. And I even went and met with the Timeout for Women director. And I was like, you need a program for girls. And I wrote out this little curriculum. It wasn't anything too extensive, but we went out to lunch, we had this conversation. I showed her some of the stuff I was doing with my nonprofit outfit for girls, and she was like, oh, thank you. Like, this. This is so great. And I wanted to be a part of it. And six months later, they came out with Timeout for Girls and wouldn't let me be a part of it.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Sleazy.

Jesse Funk [01:02:05] Yeah. So it's like, okay, I can't play in the sandbox. Yeah. All right. This is great. So, I mean, just weird dynamics in such a small little industry.

Carah Burrell [01:02:14] Like.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:02:15] I don't know. All of it was really frustrating. It was very frustrating.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] That's too bad.

Carah Burrell [01:02:19] What a weird way to preach the gospel. Such seedy business, underhanded work. I know.

Jesse Funk [01:02:24] It was so awful. But I did a ton of stuff on my own. Like, I did did well over a hundred firesides, girls camps, youth conferences in high school. Yeah, yeah. And just, like, trying to do my part, it was my calling, and I was happy to do it. I. I enjoyed it. I. And I really. Even though I had doubts at this time, there were still things that really didn't resonate with me. I. I held on like a lifeline to the phrase, a testimony is found by the bearing of it. And so I just lied and I just said all the things I knew I was supposed to say, hoping I would feel a testimony at the time.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] I'm just going to guess you didn't think of it as lying. You thought of it as an act of faith. I just want to be clear, because when you frame it now as lying, back then, it would lead people to think you weren't honest, but what you actually were doing, you were being obedient.

Jesse Funk [01:03:15] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Your leaders had taught you that a testimony is found by bearing it. So you were actually being faithful and not lying.

Spiritual Experiences Through Mormon Music

Jesse Funk [01:03:22] Exactly, exactly. And that's so important because I think a lot of people do that, and it is so problematic.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Pretty much everyone does that.

Jesse Funk [01:03:30] Exactly. Exactly. And so that was a really big piece to this puzzle. Like, I. I just. I said all the things I knew I was supposed to say, and I did not believe it, but I wanted to. I honestly wanted to believe it. It was. I enjoyed the community. I enjoyed and really appreciated what the church offered, and I wanted to be a part of it. Like, I wanted to feel the spirit. I remember making such a big deal out of that with my young women's leaders. Like, I would say, when you guys say you feel the spirit, what does it feel like? And they would describe it to them.

Jesse Funk [01:04:04] Oh, it's like a warm feeling. It's like a happy feeling. It's like a warmness in my heart and stuff. And I'm like, I don't ever feel that. Why don't I get to feel it? And they would say, oh, well, haven't you ever had the chip?

Jesse Funk [01:04:15] And I'm like, yes, I have had the chills. I also get the chills when I hear a pretty song. I also get the chills when I need to pee. I also have the chills when it's cold outside. That doesn't make sense to me. Why don't I get to feel the spirit of God? I want to feel that.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] Okay, this is blowing me away because the main way that I felt, because I had the same problem. I prayed about the Book of Mormon, didn't get the answer. I Thought I would. Year after year after year as a teen, the way I felt the spirit. And for those just listening, I'm saying that in air quotes is by Mormon music. And so whether it was the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in General Conference or literally Stephen Capari or Julie D' Azevedo Hanks or the equivalent of EFY CDs, is by listening to music or musical numbers in soccer meeting, like. Like I Heard Him Come or In the Hollow of Thy Hand or whatever those songs were. That's where I felt what I. What I was told meant the Holy Ghost, which now we know is just Elevation, emotion, which.

Carah Burrell [01:05:18] All key changes, baby.

Jesse Funk [01:05:19] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] What's that?

Jesse Funk [01:05:20] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:05:21] It's all key changes. They go to the we believe in. And you're like, oh, is that the spirit? I think that's the spirit. Oh, good. That confirms everything I've told.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Yeah. And that's. And that's literally every religion ever.

Jesse Funk [01:05:36] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Christian or not. And not just religion. It's like I always say, the Muppet Movie and Hollywood and cinema, those are just emotions. But here's my question. You were a purveyor of that.

Jesse Funk [01:05:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] And so I would think that if I was feeling those things because people like you were singing those songs, that you for sure would have been feeling those things while singing those songs.

Jesse Funk [01:05:59] Right. And I really wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] But you weren't.

Jesse Funk [01:06:02] But I wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] You weren't feeling. You weren't feeling the chills when you would sing about Jesus?

Jesse Funk [01:06:07] No.

John Dehlin [01:06:08] What. What did you feel?

Jesse Funk [01:06:09] I. I enjoyed it. I was happy. I was always a happy person. So I always just kind of chalked it up to that. I was like, I'm just happy. So I guess I just feel the spirit all the time.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] So, Carah, did you feel, like, quote the Holy Ghost when you would hear kind of Mormon pop or. Or Mormon hymns or music? Music?

Carah Burrell [01:06:26] Yes and no. Because there's a real, like, corny factor. So you have to get over that. Once you just, like, accept you didn't love that style. Like Jericho Road performed at my high school, and everyone was like, why is this?

Jesse Funk [01:06:39] Why?

Carah Burrell [01:06:40] What are we doing here? Stop, please. You know, there's a corn factor, you know, that you have to, like, be comfortable with. But once you just invest in that. Yeah. There's a certain. Especially when in the EFY songs, when they would sing just, like, really good rendition of the typical primary songs or Mormon hymns that are really beautifully done. And yeah, I can definitely. I definitely got on board with, like, feeling the chills. And something within you tells you that, like, this is so true. Because, like, no church could have music like, just. That moves me this way.

Jesse Funk [01:07:11] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:07:12] But technically, your worldview is about this small.

Jesse Funk [01:07:15] Yep.

Carah Burrell [01:07:16] You don't know what other music.

John Dehlin [01:07:18] Go to an email. Job. Evangelical church. Right. I mean, they. Amy Grant, like, they invented Christian pop. That's inspirational and.

Jesse Funk [01:07:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] But we're all like, no, it's just us.

Carah Burrell [01:07:28] There's a formula to Mormon. There's a formula to all kinds of music. You know how to make a hit. Mormon music knows how to make a hit. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:07:35] What science?

Carah Burrell [01:07:35] What thing. Yeah, exactly. What things you need to. What you need to hit that will trigger those warm feelings of emotion that technically is going to then raise the bottom. Like, they're. They're. It's all about money at the end of the day.

Jesse Funk [01:07:47] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:07:48] If people are feeling the chills. Yeah. They're investing in buying more.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Yeah. And to me, it was really drove home by Michael McLean's music because I grew up, like, when I go to the mtc, the church just, you know, the church always had the film strips. Right. So it was like, you know, I'll build you a rainbow, like, once, you know, my little son, blah, blah, blah, this family. And they got together and then the kid died, and then I'll build you. And through the film strips, you would feel, you know, moved.

Jesse Funk [01:08:19] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] But at some point, the Mormon Church moved. And I'm sorry to be sort of diverting from your story a little bit, but this actually is relevant.

Jesse Funk [01:08:26] It is 100%.

John Dehlin [01:08:29] So at some point, the Mormon Church moved from filmstrips, and literally on my mission, we would carry around projectors with these little film strips that you would feed through the thing with the light bulb and a tape recorder where you'd hit play and it'd be like, do. And you change to the next slide because videos. But right when my mission started, they, like, discovered VHS recordings, and you started to have video cassettes that you could play. And so the church came out with our Heavenly Father's plan. And families are forever.

Jesse Funk [01:08:58] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] And our Heavenly Father's plan had. You're not alone. You're not alone. Even though right now you're on your own. And then, you know. Yeah. And then together forever or whatever it was, or families are eternal. I forget, but I mean, as missionaries, they played those for us, and we just felt like, amazing uplift. And then we would share those with investigators. And, like, if you could show that video at just the right time, it's like, it works. What we learned later is that the church actually trademarked a technique called Heart Cell, which was like this Madison Avenue developed technique for, like, commercials and stories with the catchy song. And Michael McClain was all kind of a part of that.

Jesse Funk [01:09:44] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] And so that was important for me in my late 80s, early 90s kind of Mormonism. And I think you kind of followed up with that kind of in the.

Jesse Funk [01:09:52] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] Late 90s. And you probably might have even known. I think you may have mentioned to me you may have even known Michael McLean.

Jesse Funk [01:09:58] Yeah. I still know him very well. He's actually a very dear friend. When I. I was honest about leaving the church, he sent me the sweetest voicemail. Like, he's a good dude. He's so kind, but he was a part of this. He was a part of it. And I think everyone in that industry, we were all doing our best to try to create that, like, that exact idea of we want to promote this church. We believed in it so much. But you look at it now and you think, you know, Jenny Frogley, Mindy Gledhill, Katherine Nelson. A lot of people have left the church now because I think we were trying hard.

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Women at the time.

Jesse Funk [01:10:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] Yeah. Well, that's. I mean, that. That's what got me in down this line. Is that the irony of you being a part of the. Of the machine that produced this, quote, inspirational music.

Jesse Funk [01:10:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] You weren't necessarily even feeling the spirit that you were then with your beautiful talents, persuading a lot of us to then have faith. That's a weird.

Jesse Funk [01:10:55] It is weird.

John Dehlin [01:10:56] It's a little bit of a weird dynamic.

Jesse Funk [01:10:57] It is weird. And I. And I own. And I feel. I feel bad about it. I feel. Well, no. Like, I don't shame myself for it because I. I truly was, like you said, doing it out of faith. I wanted to believe it 100%. I wanted to believe it. I just didn't like it. Just the belief wasn't there. I just couldn't, like, really.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:11:17] Say, I knew it. You know how everyone says, I know the church is true? I could not say that.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] Well, like, again, it just goes back to, what's the difference in emotion and the spirit? Nobody can ever answer that question.

Jesse Funk [01:11:27] Question.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] Is it. Is it the tingling? Is that emotion or the spirit? Is it the hair standing up in your eye? Nobody. You know, it's always when there's a good story and good music, and that's every MLM ever.

Jesse Funk [01:11:38] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] And that's every religion ever. And that's every Hollywood movie ever. But. But Somehow we trademark the Holy Ghost, and. But, you know, we have no idea what that means.

Jesse Funk [01:11:48] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] Yeah. So really, you weren't. The thing is, it's. I see it as an act of integrity, and I'm sorry I'm talking so much, but you just got me passionate about something. Like, I relate to you because I wasn't gonna just say I knew when I didn't feel like I knew. And I never could understand the difference between emotion and the Holy Ghost. And that made it hard for me to say I knew it was true. And I think you probably. It was an act of integrity, at least internally, to not just, like, buy into it and claim you knew something when you didn't actually feel like you knew.

Jesse Funk [01:12:20] Exactly. And I would try to say, like, I believe. And I would try to just say things like, I keep my testimony really simple. Like, I. I just. I love the idea of this. I love the idea of this. I believe this. I don't know it, but I believe it. And so I was trying my best to be honest while also trying to be faithful and trying to earn that testimony. I wanted to earn it, and I thought I could earn it by being so faithful. I was so faithful. I did everything right. Everything that the church told me to do, I did it.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] You straightened up after Florida. Yes, you did.

Jesse Funk [01:12:51] I was such a good girl.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] You weren't a bad girl.

Jesse Funk [01:12:53] Nope.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] When I say bad.

Jesse Funk [01:12:54] Such a good girl.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] Hating that word.

Jesse Funk [01:12:57] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:58] Okay, really quickly. So those. You said you did three albums with that group. Would anyone know the song? Some of the songs. Were there more popular songs, you know, were the ones you love or most

Jesse Funk [01:13:08] proud of or honestly, hold on, the Light will Come. I think a lot of people would know that song because that's a Michael McClain ever.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] You did sing that for one of your albums.

Jesse Funk [01:13:15] Yeah, I got to sing that at the Marriott center one time for education week.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] Like, sing just a bar or two of it, just so people know how that sounds. Message of this moment is so clear

Jesse Funk [01:13:27] and as certain as the rising of the sun when your world is filled with darkness, doubt and fear Just hold on, hold on the light will come.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] Nice. Yeah, That's a good one.

Carah Burrell [01:13:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] Okay, so. So that's one. Any others that you really loved or were known for?

Jesse Funk [01:13:45] My first album, Clean His Hands, that cover song was written by Jenny Frogley, who I think is amazing. And. And I. I think that one was pretty popular. I cannot for the life of me think how it goes. We are clay in his hands Centered on the wheel as the wheel spins, the potter molds, creating something beautiful. We are clay in his hands, and all we can become is shaped by the master. That's where his finest work is done.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Did I tell you that Jesse Funk was legitimate? Carah's over there, like, patting her heart.

Carah Burrell [01:14:25] I'm quitting.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] We're all quitting. We're all retiring. That was so, so beautiful. Thanks.

Jesse Funk [01:14:31] They were beautiful songs. I'm so grateful for the experience. Truly. I'm so.

John Dehlin [01:14:35] They played on the sounds of Sabbath, like, on Sunday mornings in Utah.

Jesse Funk [01:14:38] They still are. I'm wondering Sundays.

Carah Burrell [01:14:41] Maybe the chat can let us know. Know if hearing EFY songs or. Or religious music is kind of triggering to people, and it's not to me. I, like, I really appreciate it. I. I just reinterpret it that I love the warm feelings it brings and it gives me. I. I know it can probably feel a little triggering of, like, things people used to believe it. Does it feel like that for you?

Jesse Funk [01:15:01] That sometimes. There are certain songs where I'm like that. Like, I. I really care about lyrics. Like, if a message is said in a song, like, it need. There just needs to be some sense of responsibility to teach something that's good. So there's like, some songs I'm like, that's just terrible. Like, it's terrible to teach that. But so many. So many songs in. In hymns, in primary songs, songs I recorded. EFY songs so beautiful. Like, yeah. Not triggering at all.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] Tell listeners what sounds of Sabbath or sons of Sunday are just because people outside of Utah have no idea what we're talking.

Jesse Funk [01:15:34] Yeah. So on Sundays on FM 100.3, there's kind of just a radio show and they only play LDS music.

John Dehlin [01:15:42] Pop music mostly.

Jesse Funk [01:15:43] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:44] I have to ask this. Do you know that song? Maybe you can tell your baby.

Jesse Funk [01:15:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] About trying to convince young teenage girls who get pregnant to give up their kids for adoption.

Jesse Funk [01:15:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:15:55] Do you. Do you know anything about that song? Do you know who sang it?

Jesse Funk [01:15:58] I don't remember who sang it, but I know that song, and I have

Carah Burrell [01:16:00] Jesse's like, you didn't like that song?

John Dehlin [01:16:03] Song?

Jesse Funk [01:16:03] No. Because who. Who are they to decide? Like, let women decide what to do? Let women.

Carah Burrell [01:16:10] Somebody in the chat was just saying how they listen to that music and feeling the spirit from it. Help them justify harmful teachings and nothing more than, like, hearing the spirit justifying a legitimate harmful teaching of telling you exactly what to do exactly. Out of wedlock, you know, birth or whatever.

Jesse Funk [01:16:27] Exactly. Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:16:28] That's on the nose. Too much church. Come on.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] I mean, I thought at the time LDS Family Services was needing babies to put up for adoption to paying faithful Mormon couples.

Carah Burrell [01:16:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] So I almost always wondered whether that song was almost a recruiting tool to make sure and get enough babies to be able to feed the supply of LDs Adoption Family services kind of thing. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:16:51] That's interesting. Yeah. I did not like that song.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] Yeah. You didn't like. You never did?

Jesse Funk [01:16:55] No.

John Dehlin [01:16:55] Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:16:56] As soon as I heard that song, it hit me really wrong.

Carah Burrell [01:16:58] What about that Cocoon one? That was my favorite cringe one. One I would turn on. It's really bad, but I hope you didn't sing that one. I'd be really embarrassed if I was like, there's this one song that I like. It's, like, really terrible because I did, I listened to. I like, I love things that kind of make me go like. And, you know, you know, like the, that old metaphor about you can be a butterfly raise. Raise yourself from your cocoon. Does that sound familiar? Okay, never mind. Some, some really corny, like, oh, that's some good metaphor lyrics. Like, they really. I play this game with my sister. Sorry, I'm making this about me now. I played this game with my sister since we were younger, where we'll just do dishes in the kitchen and we'll just give each other an improv type of word and we'll write EFY songs around it.

Jesse Funk [01:17:40] So I'm gonna need to hear some of these songs.

Carah Burrell [01:17:42] Yeah. After. After we're done. So we have, like, stuff. We have inside jokes since we were little kids about songs we wrote that are just take a word, metaphor, whatever, cocoon, and write, like, a verse and a chorus, and whoever, whoever strings together the best words wins the contest. While we're doing dishes.

Jesse Funk [01:17:59] Sounds fantastic.

John Dehlin [01:18:00] There's also that. Did you ever hear that song about Emma Smith? It's basically saying she's not so bad.

Jesse Funk [01:18:05] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:05] Because Brigham Young had made her out to be evil and she was hated for so many years. So there's that Mormon pop song that's like.

Jesse Funk [01:18:11] Yeah. And they say something about, like. And they, the idea is, like, they have the audacity to say, you lost your way or something like that. Okay. Yeah. That's interesting. Interesting. There's just certain songs that you're just like, what? Like, no one. You didn't run this by anybody because you needed a, Another opinion. I don't know that I, I think, like I was saying, I, I, I feel like I was a critical thinker from a young age. And so there were just so many times things like that would hit me hard, and I would just be like, that. There's something very off about that. I don't have the words for it to describe it, but something is off.

Jesse Funk [01:18:44] And I knew that inside me. Right. And so. So as I went through my entire life trying to make the church work, I tried. I did everything right. There was. There was too much cognitive dissonance that I couldn't ignore.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] Well, part of why I even went down this avenue is just because, weirdly, Mormon religious pop was really important to my testimony.

Jesse Funk [01:19:07] So cool.

John Dehlin [01:19:08] Because I wasn't getting it. Reading the scriptures necessarily, but the music in the hymns, too, and music in the spoken word.

Jesse Funk [01:19:15] Word, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] All of that, I would have said, is like a cornerstone of my testimony.

Carah Burrell [01:19:20] I totally agree. As well as when there's. We were talking about songs that maybe. Yeah. Are too on the nose, but there's some really beautiful songs that. When you're a struggling teenager and you get an EFY album. I was talking to you earlier about the song initiative, Sea of Shifting Values, and I think that song really articulated something as a teenager, that song. I mean, looking back. Yeah, it's got some corny parts to it, but, like, it. It articulates something that is a struggling teenager needs to hear. Hear that there's a God who's got you and that you're feeling wayward. You're feeling like you're lost in the sea or whatever.

Carah Burrell [01:19:52] And it articulates something really beautiful. Then you add this element of the Holy Ghost to it and you feel heard, you know, and you connect with it. And so you might not feel excited going to seminary, reading the scriptures, but EFY albums, and they were powerful. They're. They're really powerful for. For developing testimonies, I think.

Jesse Funk [01:20:10] Absolutely. That song Anchor of My Soul, do you remember that one?

John Dehlin [01:20:13] Do you remember?

Jesse Funk [01:20:14] How does that one go? And I will not move something until the Lord is coming.

Carah Burrell [01:20:20] That's the song I was talking about.

Jesse Funk [01:20:21] Is that the right one?

Carah Burrell [01:20:22] Yes.

Jesse Funk [01:20:22] Oh, okay. Anchor of My Soul.

Carah Burrell [01:20:24] Is that. Is it called Anchor of My Soul Research?

Jesse Funk [01:20:26] Jenny Frogley sang it.

Carah Burrell [01:20:27] Yes, she's it. Jenny Frogley Gordon.

Jesse Funk [01:20:29] No, Jenny Jordan Frogly. She goes by Jenny Jordan now. Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:20:32] I was just flexing that.

Jesse Funk [01:20:34] I know something says, well done. This is a something I hold on to. Hope. I. Yep. Stand in Holy Places. Oh, it's not Anchor of My Soul.

Carah Burrell [01:20:43] It's Stand in Holy Places. Okay. That's the song I'm going to sing.

Jesse Funk [01:20:46] We are.

Carah Burrell [01:20:47] That's my favorite EFY song of all time.

Jesse Funk [01:20:49] It's a great song.

Carah Burrell [01:20:51] Somebody. That's what I was talking about with my sister. Like, take a metaphor about ship sailing and put in sails and things about seas being.

Jesse Funk [01:20:59] That's right. Being tossed and turned on every wave.

Carah Burrell [01:21:02] Music's powerful and I love a good pun. All of my descriptions for Mormon stories lately, I'm trying to, like, write creatively here. Like, they just throw in as many, like, idioms and references and it is

Jesse Funk [01:21:15] so powerful, Especially for the kids. Especially for the kids. So Efy, like, being a part of the Efy CDs, that, that meant so much to me because they are powerful. They meant so much to me. I went to EFY and Outdoor EFY and got those albums like it was. Those are powerful experiences. And then you mix it with music. Yeah. The church has a great system. So like that stuff.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] Yeah. So like I told you, I interviewed. No, I was. I've been friends with Julie d' Azeveda Hanks. I don't think she's come on Mormon stories, but she had a song called He Carried Me where it's like, you know, walking along with Jesus on the beach, and then all of a sudden there's only one set of footprints in the sand. He carried me through the darkness and the dawn. Like, that song meant a lot to me.

Jesse Funk [01:21:57] So good. Julie's stuff is so good. I love her.

John Dehlin [01:21:59] Yeah. All that stuff. And I just, I have to mention that when you talk about a high demand religion that is high growth and highly successful, you have to capture the youth. I mean, you ask the brethren what their number one concern is, bar none, no exceptions. They care about. If they have to pick one thing, they care about the youth, because the youth is their future. And so I, I don't. I don't think it can be understated how important EFY is.

Carah Burrell [01:22:25] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] And I don't. Indoctrinating is probably an unfair, semi unfair characterization because they probably care about inspiring and helping and, you know, promoting health and happiness. But Efy and those, those CDs are a really important part of converting, slash indoctrinating the youth, along with the whole EFY experience to multiple generations of, of adult Mormons today.

Jesse Funk [01:22:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:54] And you were part of that machine.

Jesse Funk [01:22:56] I was part of the machine. I was.

John Dehlin [01:22:57] And, and, and you probably loved it.

Jesse Funk [01:23:00] I really did. I really did love it. I really was proud of it. I do not shame myself for not being completely honest because like we've said, it was out of faith. 100%. It was faith. I was trying so hard to earn that testimony, but there There are points where I look back on it and I think I. I did lie. I said things that I knew I didn't believe just because I knew that that was a popular thing to say. That hurts, that part.

Carah Burrell [01:23:27] There's something performative there. Like you're a performer, it seems like deep down. And when you need to turn it on, whether it's singing or a testimony, you turn it on.

Jesse Funk [01:23:35] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:23:35] Is that how you kind of made sense of how you're supposed to go about?

Jesse Funk [01:23:38] And it was like an expectation, too. Like they expected me to say certain things and to do certain things and act a certain way, dress a certain way. Like, yeah, it was. It kind of had to be a show in order for me to be a successful singer. So it was like I was kind of like trying to be a good Mormon girl for sure. But I also wanted to be a successful singer. Like, I cared about that a lot and I wanted to do good things with my. With my singing. It wasn't too ego driven. It was just I really wanted to do good things with my singing.

Jesse Funk [01:24:07] And I thought serving the Lord, you know, like, in my mind, I honestly thought I could be a missionary. And so I need to. I need to wear that. That title. I need to like, be that missionary. So I have to do the things that a missionary would do. So I was trying to fit that in the box. I was just trying to fit in a box.

Carah Burrell [01:24:23] And when you come from a place like Provo, where I can imagine similar to my upbringing, you don't have a lot of other options of what truth is.

Jesse Funk [01:24:32] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:24:32] This is kind of given to you from birth, right?

Jesse Funk [01:24:34] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:24:34] You start out with it. It's true. And if it doesn't even feel right, you're still going to find a way to fit within that box. Within that framework.

Jesse Funk [01:24:40] Yes. If I. If anyone had ever said there's a difference between there's something called objective and subjective truth. If any. Anyone had said that to me, introduced that concept, oh, my word, that would have changed my life. I honestly, truly, in the deepest part of me, believed there's only one truth. And if I don't believe in that truth, then I'm wrong.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:25:01] And I have been gaslighted so much by people very close to me who have said that exact thing. If you don't believe it, you're wrong. Because there's only one truth.

John Dehlin [01:25:10] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:25:12] Mind blowing.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] Yeah. And I think. I think now that I'm trying to realize where I was hoping to go with all this, I guess going back to you Saying you didn't always feel it when you were singing it. If, you know, if you're a singer and you have to sing these things all the time, just kind of like Carah just said, you know, that it's a technique or a device or it's a set of. Of skills that when you do it, people feel a certain way. But when you're on the production end of it, when you're on the talent end of it, it. You realize that it. It's more mechanical and like you said, it's more performative and you have to turn it on and off and you're doing it a lot.

Jesse Funk [01:25:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] And you can't feel amazing every time you do something. The more you do something, the less amazing it often feels.

Jesse Funk [01:25:56] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] With a few exceptions. And so. Yeah. And so I guess for you, because you are actually producing it, I guess in some ways it's going to feel less.

Jesse Funk [01:26:07] Yeah, yeah, that's very true. And there were so many times where I was like, I don't want to. I don't want to go. I don't want to drive to St. George to do a girls camp. I don't want to do it.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:26:17] Because I. I wasn't passionate about it. I wasn't like, I wanted to be. I wanted to be, but I wasn't. I loved the singing part and, and Good Night Nurse. I loved hanging out with the kids. Loved it. I never had any other calling besides young women's. I was always a girls camp director. Director, or young women's in beehives, you know, And I loved those kids.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Sure.

Jesse Funk [01:26:37] But the gospel part, I just could not. I just couldn't get to the point where I was like, oh, this is. This is. For me. This is a good thing in my life. For me personally.

Fame, Pearl Awards, and Performing on Tour

John Dehlin [01:26:47] What was it like to hear your own songs on the radio? And what was it like? Did you get a little bit of fame where people would notice you and see, oh, that's Jesse Funk, you know. Did it ever get like that?

Jesse Funk [01:26:57] Yeah, like sometimes. I mean, I'd go to, like, Deseret bookstores and do, like, book signings or, you know, CD signings when a new album would come out. So I'd go sit at my little table and like, I'd have my little CDs and people would walk by and they'd be like, oh, will you sign this for me? And like, that's super fun. And there was a. There was like two years where they did a. It was called the Pearl Awards. Do you remember this?

John Dehlin [01:27:16] Tell Us. What? Those were.

Jesse Funk [01:27:17] It was kind of like the Mormon Grammys. But it was. I'm. I'm so grateful. I'm laughing because, like, it, it was. They were trying so hard to make it feel really, really special. And it was. It certainly was.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] I won 11 of awards. Where were they?

Jesse Funk [01:27:33] They were held at Cottonwood High School.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] I thought, at least you're gonna say great in America.

Jesse Funk [01:27:38] I know, I know. Seriously. So they were trying so hard, and I seriously. Bless their hearts, like, they tried to make it super cool.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] Make it auditorium in Cottonwood High School.

Jesse Funk [01:27:46] And so we're all decked to the nines. And I won 11 of those puppies.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] Who else is there?

Jesse Funk [01:27:50] Like Jericho Road. That was like, right when I had like, really started. Katherine Nelson. I was always a huge fan of her voice. I thought she was amazing. Jenny Frost Ugley. Let's see. Let's see. Eclipse. Eclipse was kind of part of that scene for a while. Julia Diazebedo.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:28:08] Greg Simpson. Let's see, who else? Hillary Weeks. Hillary Weeks.

John Dehlin [01:28:15] And you won 11.

Jesse Funk [01:28:16] I won 11 of those little babies, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:18] That's really impressive.

Jesse Funk [01:28:19] It was. I felt very special.

John Dehlin [01:28:22] How many. What were they called?

Jesse Funk [01:28:24] FCMA Pearl Award winners.

John Dehlin [01:28:25] How many Pearl Awards equals a Grammy? I'm just curious.

Jesse Funk [01:28:29] That's a great question, John. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] Is it 10? Carah.

Jesse Funk [01:28:33] I think it would take.

Carah Burrell [01:28:34] In the. In the true church, it's. They are exceeding the worldly Grammys. Are you kidding me? Hello? Did she stutter? John, did you not hear?

John Dehlin [01:28:45] All right.

Carah Burrell [01:28:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:46] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:28:47] So.

Jesse Funk [01:28:47] I mean, that part was fun. I'll be totally honest. It fed my ego, like, super fun to feel like I was doing something special, something worthwhile, something that mattered to people, you know, Anyway. And then later as I, as I went on, like, I, I had a stillborn 14 years ago, and I, I. My ex husband wrote a song called Calling All Angels that I recorded. And I wrote a little book to go with it. And a lot of people really found comfort with that when they.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] How does that go?

Jesse Funk [01:29:17] Calling all angels I need to feel something familiar Something real Am I just dreaming When I close my eyes I feel you're near I feel you inside Just to call your name and know that you're still there Calling all angels

John Dehlin [01:29:41] and that's about having a stillborn child.

Jesse Funk [01:29:45] So I mean, to be.

John Dehlin [01:29:46] Did you have that experience yourself? Yeah, yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:29:49] That's 36 weeks along in a pregnancy and lost that little girl and it was so hard. And so a lot of people who experienced miscarriage and stillbirth you know, they. They were able to find some comfort in that. And so truly, truly, I really want people to hear me. Like, I'm so deeply grateful that I got to be a part of that, that I got to use my voice. And I did it with the very best of intentions. I truly wanted to be. Be a missionary. I wanted to be an instrument in God's hand. I wanted that. I didn't believe it, but I wanted to believe it. And I think that's important to say because a lot of people feel the same way that I do. I've had so many conversations about this.

John Dehlin [01:30:31] Would people tell you you were an important part of their testimony? Your songs were.

Jesse Funk [01:30:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] Was that weird?

Jesse Funk [01:30:36] No, that was beautiful. I'm so grateful. And I take that seriously. Like, I still do. I. When people email me now and they don't know that I've left the church. Church.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] I.

Jesse Funk [01:30:45] And they say, oh, my gosh, your song meant so much to me on my mission or. Or meant so much when I was going through a divorce or something, and I just say, I'm so grateful. Thank you so much for sharing that. You know, I'm not going to say, oh, but I don't believe it anymore. I'm very respectful that I got to be a part of someone's experience. It's a privilege.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] Okay, well, in terms of, like, your actual story, we were still in high school, so let's. Anything. I guess we could just say that is your music career, or at least that we can come back to it, but let's jump. Well, go ahead.

Jesse Funk [01:31:16] Well, I wanted to talk about when I was 17, I did that Footloose tour.

John Dehlin [01:31:19] Yeah. Yeah. Let's go back.

Jesse Funk [01:31:20] This is a big piece. Because I truly, truly, truly believed that gay people were bad. I believed that. I honestly believed that they were sinners.

John Dehlin [01:31:32] When did you learn that?

Jesse Funk [01:31:32] When did you pick up that all growing up. I explicitly said in young women, women's in. I remember a few times in primary, people saying, if you're. If you're gay, you're a sinner. If you're gay, you don't go to heaven.

Jesse Funk [01:31:47] Yeah, Like, I. I remember those very explicitly being taught in church. And so I had this belief, all growing up that gay people were scary, gay people were bad, and they were sinners. So doing a Broadway tour, I. I got to go to New York for two weeks. I was in New York City on September 11th. Like, had this, like, amazing experience with all of these incredible people and spent four months going to 36 states all over the Country. And I was with probably 15 gay men on a bus every day for four months. And it was magnificent. It was so beautiful. And those people were so much fun.

Jesse Funk [01:32:30] They were so lovely, loving, so kind. Just. I. I just fell madly in love with all of them. And it was the. It was that kind of. Just the first time I thought, huh, this is interesting. My belief system tells me that they're bad, but I'm here experiencing their real humanity, their goodness, their empathy. So many beautiful things. So is it possible that some of the things I've been taught are not to going true? So a lot of cognitive dissonance there.

John Dehlin [01:33:00] So that was a big question for you.

Jesse Funk [01:33:02] Yeah. And it was so great to just completely shift a belief system real fast. And I instantly thought, good night, nurse. I've. I have shamed people. I have. I've said horrible things, because that's what I thought I should say. That's what a good Mormon girl would say.

John Dehlin [01:33:19] What would you have said?

Jesse Funk [01:33:21] Here's an example. I was sitting at lunch with my cousin, who was never a member of the church, and she and I went to prom with a whole big group. And one of the people in our group, I'd only met her that night at prom. Her name was Melanie. And.

Jesse Funk [01:33:36] And my cousin said, we were sitting at lunch, and she goes, melanie came out. She's gay. And I instantly, without even thinking about it, I thought, oh, that's so sad. She'd make that choice. And it wasn't even a second thought. That's what a. That's a popular thing to say. That's a trendy thing to say. That's an acceptable thing to say for a Mormon. And as soon as I said it, I was like, ah, something's off. Like, something's off in that. Why. Why would I say that? Why. Why do I need to say that? Even if I don't believe it, why would I even need to say it?

Jesse Funk [01:34:07] And then having that experience with the Footloose tour, I just. I was like, nope. I am never, ever, ever, under any circumstances, going to shame someone in the LGBT community again, ever.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] That changed you.

Jesse Funk [01:34:18] It was beautiful. I loved that change.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Okay. What was your role in that musical?

Jesse Funk [01:34:23] I was Wendy Jo. So if you've seen the movie, I was one of the ditzy girls that hangs out with Sarah Jessica Parker.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] Oh, and was that. Was that, like a Broadway quality touring company?

Jesse Funk [01:34:35] Yeah, it was so legit. It was so fun.

John Dehlin [01:34:37] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:34:37] I love that. Do you sing a song?

Jesse Funk [01:34:41] If you sing. Let's hear it for the boy with me, Carah.

John Dehlin [01:34:43] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:34:44] You ready? Okay, let's sing it. Here we go. Let's hear for the boy. Ah, let's give the boy. Let's hear from my baby. It was such a fun show. Like, amazing dancing.

John Dehlin [01:34:59] No Romeo.

Jesse Funk [01:35:00] That's right. Such a good song. Like, all the music is so great.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] Okay. I'm old enough to remember when that movie came out. The original movie.

Carah Burrell [01:35:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:35:09] Kevin Bacon, way back in the day. That's how old I am.

Jesse Funk [01:35:12] It's a good movie. It's classic.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:35:16] I was gonna ask, when you were in these situations, this is a very non Mormon setting on this Broadway tour, were you ever confronted with them, like, oh, Jesse's Mormon, and you had to, like, defend your beliefs and suddenly feeling like a fish out of water?

Jesse Funk [01:35:29] Yes, all the time. Like, they'd go out drinking, and I'd be like, oh, I don't do that. And then they would say things like, oh, Jesse doesn't do that. And so, like, they were so respectful of it, of course, but they tease me about it. And. And then they would say, well, why don't it? You do drink? And I could never come up with, like, a legit argument for that. Or, why don't you drink coffee? And what age were you again? This was 17. Okay. And I just. I. I didn't know my own religion well enough to articulate why and to have a good argument about it. And that made me feel so small. That made me feel so unintelligent.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] I was, what's wrong with just saying the church teaches it's bad? What's wrong with that?

Jesse Funk [01:36:05] Because I feel like that's not enough. It's like kind of an excuse to not think.

John Dehlin [01:36:10] It's kind of blind obedience.

Jesse Funk [01:36:11] Yeah. And I. That wasn't good enough for me. So I really did try to study and understand. Okay. This is why the Word of Wisdom. And that started me down the rabbit hole. There were a lot of things about studying the Word of Wisdom that I

John Dehlin [01:36:23] was like, what, back then?

Jesse Funk [01:36:25] Yeah, that. Like, this doesn't make any sense.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] Okay. So knowing that your mom had left the church over intellectual issues, did you ever, in those high school years, years, go to your mom and say, mom, I've got questions about the Word of Wisdom or about LGBT people or whatever?

Jesse Funk [01:36:38] No, I was still at that point where I thought she was bad. I was like, I'm not gonna throw her a bone. I'm not gonna admit that I have questions too. I was too prideful, and I was too wrapped up in. I'm right. She's wrong.

John Dehlin [01:36:53] Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:36:54] Yeah. Yeah. We never talked about the church ever. I really wish we had. I wish I had been open minded enough to say, mom, tell me why. I want to hear your story. I want to care about you enough to hear your story. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:09] And you didn't do that.

Jesse Funk [01:37:11] Never. Because I was just too wrapped up in what I had been told was the right way to live. That took away a relationship with my mom for so long. It was like 15 years. We didn't have a relationship at all. So awful. That's. That's the thing that'll get me going. And it still makes me very angry. I'm angry about it. I have no problem admitting it. I'm a therapist, damn it. I can absolutely admit I am so angry that what? That a system would make me feel justified in distancing myself from my mother? A girl needs her mom. We all need our parents. We all need family. And just because of a system that I desperately wanted to belong to and feel accepted by, I. I shunned her. I shamed her. I pushed her away.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] And it's over. Beliefs that are like. Just like beliefs.

Jesse Funk [01:38:11] Exactly. And beliefs that I didn't even believe. I didn't even believe them. There were way too many things that just did not make any sense to me. But I was so hell bent on fighting for those beliefs and saying that I believed them so that I could fit in that box, so that I would be accepted by the community. That I pushed my own mother away. And now we're. We're making up for so much lost time and it's just. It's so unfair. And I just. My heart breaks for her. She was so lonely and so felt so isolated and. And she wanted a relationship with me and. And that's. That's the thing that just rips my heart out.

John Dehlin [01:38:50] I'm so sorry.

Carah Burrell [01:38:51] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] And I'm glad you guys are able to kind of rebuild now.

Jesse Funk [01:38:55] Oh, yeah. We have so much fun now.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:38:57] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:38:57] We're apostates together. And we just celebrate that.

John Dehlin [01:39:01] We'll come back to that.

Carah Burrell [01:39:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:39:03] Okay. So. So in terms of your story, you do the. The broad. That's a. That's a big deal. Did you want to actually go to Broadway and like become the next.

Carah Burrell [01:39:15] No.

John Dehlin [01:39:15] You know, Idina Mazel or whatever.

Jesse Funk [01:39:17] No, I. Because of the. The Florida experience and how hard that was. I knew that I wasn't meant. And I didn't have the stamina for a career like that. The only reason I even did it was they. They auditioned here in Utah at Orem High School. That was like the only reason. And I didn't think I would even make it. I was the youngest of the whole cast and I didn't even think I'd, I'd make it, but I did. And I was like, okay, four months. I can handle four months. But I knew that was it. It wasn't something I would want to do long term. It's brutal.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] You didn't want to go to Broadway.

Jesse Funk [01:39:44] No, that life is brutal. I wouldn't want it. A lot of people still ask me, they're like, why don't you do American Idol or something? And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't understand. What we see on like an American idol stage is 10 seconds, you know, of like this glamour and this excitement and this amazing moment that's so beautiful. It's so much work and so much stress and it's all day of rehearsals. It's. Your voice is hammered. You, you're, you're so stressed out the whole time. You don't sleep. Like, I, I'm just, I'm not built for that. I, I like a slower speed and I'm, I'm a fast paced person. But I, I love quiet nights at home and I love board games and I just want to, like, I love to have fun, but yeah, I'd rather do other things.

John Dehlin [01:40:27] One of the most heartbreaking things documentaries I've ever seen is the one on Whitney Houston. I think it was out on Netflix and, and it shows behind the scenes. You know, we, we often, you know, you think about it, Prince died of drug overdose, Michael Jackson drug overdose, Whitney Houston, drug overdose. Like, you know, there's the 27 Club, you know, Kurt Cobain, Amy Winehouse, like how, how many Jim Morrison, Elvis, like, how many? It's not because they're all just like party people. It's not just because they all lack character. You don't get to greatness without character. It's the grind of the. Always staying on top, always performing, all the, all the trips, all the, all the touring, night after night after night. And there's also an Elvis documentary about this. It destroys lives.

Jesse Funk [01:41:17] It does.

John Dehlin [01:41:18] And if you just want a really good example of that, watch that. Whitney Houston, she was a shell of a human by the end of her life.

Jesse Funk [01:41:24] Absolutely. It is brutal. I do not, not want any part of that.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] That's interesting.

Jesse Funk [01:41:28] I value family, I value fun, I value a well rounded life. There's. I have so many other things. Singing is fun, but there's so many other Things that I want to do.

John Dehlin [01:41:42] It's Carah. Tell me if you agree. But it her, I mean, her voice seems total legit. Like could be superstar quality that. I'm not trying to flatter you, but like, it's. When I heard we did karaoke at my birthday party.

Carah Burrell [01:41:55] Just stop talking about.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] I know, like, no, you have like, it's, it's impressive to me because I think you've got the voice to actually be win American Idol. So it's interesting that she's better than American Idol.

Carah Burrell [01:42:07] Don't put her down to that.

John Dehlin [01:42:09] Of course. And I'm just saying it's interesting that you, you kind of noticed that and made that call. Did you feel like, did you ever feel like I probably could do this, but I'm just made a conscious choice not to pursue it.

Jesse Funk [01:42:22] I think vocally I could do it. Like, I, I really do love to sing and I've invested so much into my voice. I don't think I could handle the life.

John Dehlin [01:42:31] But. But yeah. But you chose that consciously.

Jesse Funk [01:42:33] Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [01:42:34] Yeah. That's amazing.

Jesse Funk [01:42:35] I. I wanted to be a mother. I love being a mother.

John Dehlin [01:42:37] Is that a good segue?

Jesse Funk [01:42:39] Sure.

BYU, Marriage, and Early Motherhood

John Dehlin [01:42:39] Is there anything else we should talk about in terms of music before we jump to marriage and motherhood?

Jesse Funk [01:42:44] I think that's all for music. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] Did you go to college? Did you? Yeah. Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:42:49] Yeah. I went to UVSC for was UVU and studied multimedia. My dad was a video editor and I thought I wanted to do like multimedia stuff and that was so fun. I loved it. It was a party school. That was back when before they cared about academia. So I just went to all the parties and just had so much fun. I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:43:06] Did you go to byu? Did you even try?

Jesse Funk [01:43:08] I did get offered a scholarship to go to BYU to be on the Young Ambassadors Provo.

Carah Burrell [01:43:13] Uh huh.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] Why in the heck wouldn't you do that?

Jesse Funk [01:43:14] I know, I've thought about that so much. Like why didn't I jump at that? Ron Simpson himself sent me an email and he's like, if you want to come here, you will have a full ride. And I don't know why I turned.

Carah Burrell [01:43:24] You guys want to explain what that is? Because I don't know. I'm lost.

Jesse Funk [01:43:26] Oh.

John Dehlin [01:43:27] So what are Young Ambassadors?

Jesse Funk [01:43:28] So byu, there's like a music dance theater program, it's called mdt. And there's this group called the Young Ambassadors. And like anyone who has any interest in like musical theater or, or byu, and especially Mormons that love all that stuff, like to be a Young Ambassador is like the. It's like the pinnacle. It's just a huge.

John Dehlin [01:43:45] Can I give an example?

Jesse Funk [01:43:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:46] So, like, on Mormon stories, definitely a top 10 interview of all time is a guy named Clark Johnson. Clark grew up in Houston, gay Mormon, went to byu, became a young ambassador. He ended up in the original cast of the Book of Mormon musical.

Jesse Funk [01:44:00] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:44:01] You know, because that's the level of talent, performance experience you get in the young ambassador program at byu. You. It can be a job jumping off point for a Broadway musical career.

Jesse Funk [01:44:14] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:44:14] I'm not exactly. It's a really tour the world and. Right.

Jesse Funk [01:44:18] Yeah. My boyfriend was a young ambassador and

John Dehlin [01:44:20] like, your current boyfriend. Oh, I didn't know that.

Jesse Funk [01:44:22] Yeah. He's a fantastic singer and he just, like, speaks so highly of it. It was such an amazing experience for him. So it.

John Dehlin [01:44:28] It travel around the world.

Jesse Funk [01:44:29] Big deal, huh? They went on tour.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] It's like a show choir, right?

Jesse Funk [01:44:33] Yeah, yeah. But they do, like, dance with it. And so it's like a. It is a shot show. Like, it's actually really beautiful, you know? Yeah. I. And I kind of think. I know, like, I regret it. I regret it a little bit. Like, I think about. I'm like, why on earth didn't I do it? But I think by that point, I think I was like, 19. I wanted to get married because I felt a lot of pressure to get married. And then I wanted to be a mother. And I also was starting to not love the LDS scene.

Jesse Funk [01:45:03] I think. I think that's why I was like. Like, I want to be part of it still and try to make it work, but I also don't want to be, like, just all in Mormon all the time. 100. Because I was doing so much LDS singing at that point. So I. I don't. I think that's why. But yeah, it would have been a good opportunity. Yeah. There's a part of me that regrets it.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] What do Provo girls think of byu? Living in Provo, growing up in Provo,

Jesse Funk [01:45:26] I thought it was a big deal. What do you think?

Carah Burrell [01:45:29] It's not my interview. I shouldn't say anything.

Jesse Funk [01:45:33] Did you want to go there?

Carah Burrell [01:45:34] I did, but it also wasn't exciting because I felt like when you go to college, it should be something outside of your hometown. But all my friends went to byu. I went to uvu. I was bored out of my mind. I just didn't want to go to school. I thought, like, as soon as I'm 18, I just want to hit the ground running and go out and See the world. So maybe as a Provo, like, yeah, I know a lot of people from around the world, around the country, and that's like the hub of young Mormons. And that's really fun and exciting. But for me, I felt really bored by the idea of staying in Provo.

Jesse Funk [01:46:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:46:04] Did you have that experience?

Jesse Funk [01:46:05] Yes, that too. Like, I wanted to experience other things and get out of Provo a little bit. So I think that was part of it. And uvsc, like, it really was when it was a state college instead of university. They had, like, magicians and ventriloquists and dances, like, all the time. And it was so fun. And I talked to some of my friends who were at byu and I was like, do you guys have all these, like, fun things happening all the time? And. And they're like, well, we do, like, fhe activities. And I'm like, family. What do I do here? I like to have fun. So I think I loved the school. I loved uvsc. I was also on the ballroom team, and I love to dance, so I didn't want to leave that.

John Dehlin [01:46:41] You did ballroom at uvsc?

Jesse Funk [01:46:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:46:44] So I think there were. There were a lot of factors.

Carah Burrell [01:46:46] Quadruple threat.

Jesse Funk [01:46:49] Ballroom is so fun. Oh, my word.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] BYU has a kind of a internationally known ballroom dance.

Jesse Funk [01:46:54] That's true. That's true. And I.

John Dehlin [01:46:56] But so does UVC is great. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:46:58] But I think I was, like, so happy with the team I was on, maybe because I loved the director so much. I don't know. A lot of things.

John Dehlin [01:47:03] You dance, too?

Jesse Funk [01:47:04] I love to dance.

John Dehlin [01:47:05] Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:47:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:07] All right.

Carah Burrell [01:47:07] Your wagon to this star.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] Yeah. Yeah. I'm just gonna hand over the keys to the Open Stories foundation to you.

Jesse Funk [01:47:13] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] Tell me what to do next. Will you tell me what to do next? Because I wanna.

Jesse Funk [01:47:17] Oh, my God. Okay, so love you guys.

John Dehlin [01:47:20] Next in your story, where does it. Where does it go?

Jesse Funk [01:47:22] I wanted to mention, When I was 18, I went to Africa for the first time. And. And I've been twice more since. And that's kind of just a big part of who I am. I took a group, two groups of teenagers to Africa in the last, like five years. Took my daughter. They're going to take my son next summer.

Jesse Funk [01:47:37] But going to Africa when I was 18 was super eye opening for me because I remember seeing the people who had nothing and they didn't have the church by any means. I wasn't there with a church group at all. It was just a humanitarian service trip anyway. And they were so happy. They were just so happy. And I remember thinking, so wait, you can be happy outside of the church? You can be happy not being Mormon and that. I know that for some people that's going to sound so insane, but when you grow up in this church, like you, you are taught we have the one true truth.

Jesse Funk [01:48:15] Like, it is the only truth on the planet. We have the monopoly on happiness. And you can't be happy unless you're living the gospel. So I really. It challenged a thought inside me that I thought, if I'm not Mormon, I won't be happy. If I'm not Mormon, I won't be happy. So seeing people happy outside of the church challenged a belief I had.

John Dehlin [01:48:35] It's that Mark Twain quote that travel is fatal to prejudice.

Jesse Funk [01:48:39] Right, right, exactly. So that was an amazing experience for me. Carah, I know you have very strong feelings about humanitarian trips. I know, I know. We're going to have to talk about that.

John Dehlin [01:48:47] Well, I think it speaks.

Carah Burrell [01:48:48] I talk to everyone.

John Dehlin [01:48:49] I think it speaks to your character that you didn't go there and think, let me bless them with the happiness.

Jesse Funk [01:48:54] No white savior complex.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] You went there saying, oh, my gosh, are they happier than us? You know?

Jesse Funk [01:48:59] Yeah, absolutely. And teach me what? What?

John Dehlin [01:49:01] Teach me how Carah proves that right. You approve of that approach, right?

Jesse Funk [01:49:05] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:49:06] I'm lost. What did I say?

Jesse Funk [01:49:08] I've heard you talk about, like, how you feel about humanitarian trips, and I would love to have conversation with you about it because I agree with you on so many levels. Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:49:15] The. Just the attitude that. That a lot of white Christians go into, like, oh, you poor people. This is. We'll bless you with all of these ways and going, like, teachings and beliefs. Yes. Where. When it's reversed and like, when you go in with the attitude of, I have so much to learn from other cultures that.

Jesse Funk [01:49:31] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:49:32] Our. Our country and our religion and our privilege fits within our box right here. That might work for us in some ways, but branching out of that and seeing how people who don't have our structure. Structure are completely moral. People take care of their families. They don't need our intervention as much as we think that they do. They don't need to be rescued in the ways that we think that they do.

Jesse Funk [01:49:51] And, like.

Carah Burrell [01:49:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:52] I think it sounds like that's how you.

Jesse Funk [01:49:54] Absolutely. Yeah. And if anyone is interested in, like, really learning more about it. Have you seen Poverty Inc. Yeah. It's a great documentary. Talks about that exact idea.

John Dehlin [01:50:04] Like, send that to the show Notes.

Carah Burrell [01:50:05] Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:50:06] It's just a fantastic documentary because there is so much good that can be done, but you have to have the right attitude going into it. But it was also interesting side note. So I went to Kenya when I was 18, but then I went to Ghana twice. And there's a temple in Ghana. And the people in Ghana who are not a member, not members of the church, they resent that temple. They resent it. You go to the city of Accra where you fly in and everything is dusty, dirty, terrible roads, shacks. I mean it's, it is, it's what you'd imagine, imagine a third world country looking like.

Jesse Funk [01:50:39] And obviously there's plenty of places in Africa that are exactly like America. So this is just one place that is very poverty stricken. And there's this gorgeous, beautiful temple in the middle of all of that perfectly green manicured grass. And it doesn't fit anywhere inside of that culture. So the people who are, some of them are starving right outside of those gates, they look at that temple and they think, you're here to end the. And the missionaries, bless their hearts, they're doing their job, but like they're out saying, this is where happiness is. And the people there are saying, well, why, why don't you guys use some of this extravagance to help feed us if you're here to serve us?

Jesse Funk [01:51:19] So it's, it's really interesting. So I've learned a lot about the humanitarian work that the church does that is great on so many levels, but on some levels it is not effective. And I think, think that really needs to be talked about. I have strong opinions about that because half my heart is in Ghana.

John Dehlin [01:51:37] Well, that's a great experience when you're, you know, 18, 20, 21.

Jesse Funk [01:51:41] Yeah, yeah, I loved it.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] All right, so what happened next?

Jesse Funk [01:51:48] So, okay, so like, yeah, I was doing all the LDS stuff. So many girls camps, firesides, youth conferences. So I really got a lot of great experience in speaking. And I discovered I don't love just singing. I get bored real fast, like just doing the songs and I feel like people kind of tune out a little bit and I become like a dinner theater performer. And that's fine, totally fine. I do the same thing. Like, you know, I'll check my phone if I'm at a concert or whatever, that's fine. But when I started getting really excited about telling stories, and I love to tell stories stories.

Jesse Funk [01:52:21] And so I would start telling some stories from my life and lessons that I learned from them. So I would start speaking more and I, I really enjoyed people listening more intently to the stories. And then I would tie in a song. And so I got kind of excited about that and enjoyed it. And by this time, I was getting really burnt out on driving down to St. George or flying to Maine to do a youth conference and not being compensated for that.

Jesse Funk [01:52:47] And I was never wanting to be all rich and stuff, but at least enough to cover a babysitter and my time away from my children in order to go do that. And so I started really thinking, what's the deal with money?

Jesse Funk [01:53:01] What's my hold up on asking to be compensated? And I realized it's because I was so scared of people thinking I was worldly or materialistic. And so I've come to grips with that. I no longer feel like I need to apologize for. For wanting to be paid for my time.

John Dehlin [01:53:15] You said you got candles as your compensation, right?

Jesse Funk [01:53:17] Yeah, brownies and scentsy candles. I had at one point, like, 17

John Dehlin [01:53:21] different scentsy candles for all the firesides. You did?

Carah Burrell [01:53:23] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [01:53:23] Like, they'd give me nice little gifts, but couldn't come up with any money out of their budget to pay for my gasoline to drive to St. George for my house in Farmington, you know?

John Dehlin [01:53:32] Yeah. It is super weird that, just as an example, that the church literally uses people with talent to inspire members to want to give the church money. Right, Right.

Jesse Funk [01:53:45] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:53:45] When you spell it out like that, John.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] No, and I mean, and the church has now literally hundreds of billions of dollars in the bank. Yes, literally. But they don't want to, you know, but. But they somehow create a culture amongst. So they're getting super wealthy, and yet they've got members that they're like, we're going to fire our paid janitorial state staff and then convince the members to clean the chapel as volunteers.

Jesse Funk [01:54:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:54:14] And you are another example of someone that was just, like, on the road inspiring people to give their devotion to the church and to give the church money. And then. But they weren't paying you.

Jesse Funk [01:54:24] No. And we talked about, like, the songs that are played on the radio every Sunday. They've been playing my songs for 16 or 17 years every Sunday. And they don't pay anything for that. Not any. Anything. That's unheard of outside of this industry. You get paid, like, it's just kind of what happens. And. And I want to be clear, it's not about making a ton of money. It was just. I would just ask for money to cover a babysitter and gasoline to get to wherever they were, and they just couldn't. They could not do it. And. And I felt bad for asking Anyway, so there's just this mindset.

Jesse Funk [01:54:59] And I actually think in our exmo community, there's that same same mindset. We need to shift that. We need to make sure that anyone in this space who's doing it with a really good heart and good intentions, we need to be able to embrace that people deserve to be compensated for their time. And I think that's a very unhealthy mentality in the church. So especially us outside of the church, we need to embrace that because, like, you know, for. For us sitting here, like, we're. We're doing this for the right reasons. We're not trying to make a million dollars. We want to help, but we also need to feed our children.

Jesse Funk [01:55:33] We also need to have a living. And as a therapist now, you would never expect a therapist to give their time for free. Like, you know, so we're all. We've. We've earned these positions of really doing the work to prepare ourselves to do good work, and it should be compensated. So that was kind of a shift that happened inside me when I was doing all this stuff, and I was like, okay, I'm going to value my. Myself. I'm going to make a decision to value myself enough to say I would like to be compensated. So I started really distancing myself from the LDS music industry, and I got into just motivational speaking in general. And I've been doing that for the last. I don't know, I've been on a speaker's bureau for the last secular, like not.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] Not religious, not.

Jesse Funk [01:56:16] Nothing. Nothing to do with.

Speaking Career and EFY Director Role

John Dehlin [01:56:17] So your main topics, what were your go to speeches over the years?

Jesse Funk [01:56:19] I teach a lot about resilience, healthy relationships, and talk a lot about red flags of abuse and how to set boundaries and really started studying all that as I was going through my undergrad in psychology and master's degree in social work.

John Dehlin [01:56:32] So someone could hire you now to be a speaker?

Jesse Funk [01:56:33] Oh, yeah?

John Dehlin [01:56:35] Where would they find how to hire you?

Jesse Funk [01:56:37] I'm on a speaker's bureau called Top Youth Speakers. You can go to topyouthspeakers.com or just jessefunk.com so I do high schools and junior highs and leadership conferences all over the country, sometimes four or five times a month. So it's like an actual job for me.

John Dehlin [01:56:50] And it's resilience. Do you do body image? Do you do, like.

Jesse Funk [01:56:54] Not really. I mostly focus on, like, mental health, coping skills, and healthy relationships.

John Dehlin [01:56:59] Okay.

Jesse Funk [01:57:00] I think that's one of the most relevant things for our teenagers because you can teach them a Whole bunch of things that are obviously important, like body image is super important. But if they are struggling with relationships, that's a foundational element that can really mess that them up. They have to understand how to set boundaries, how to value themselves enough to set those boundaries and fight for healthy relationships in their lives.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] So it's JesseFunk.com okay. Okay. That's cool.

Jesse Funk [01:57:27] Oh, I love it. I love it so much. Yeah. All over the country just like meeting these sweet kids and they come up to me after and they're like, you know, I have this unhealthy relationship here. My boyfriend's toxic. Or I'm realizing that my dad, dad is really manipulative. Or I didn't even know what gaslighting was. Thanks for talking about these types of things. It's really relevant and I try to make it fun. So like Carah was saying, it's like a show. And so I start with like a fun little pop medley and then I end with a Beyonce song.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] Wait, what was your what pop.

Jesse Funk [01:57:57] I made this little pop medley with like a Jesse J song masterpiece and Ariana Grande Break Free and Kelly Clarkson's Stronger and it's just this cute little.

John Dehlin [01:58:07] So you'd perform music and then give your talk and then end with the song thing. Yeah, I want to see that.

Jesse Funk [01:58:13] Super fun. I enjoy it so much. Yeah. And that's like my main source of income. That's like what I do. So. And I'm grateful for it because I feel like all the LDS stuff prepared me for it. And it also prepared me to value myself enough to say I want to be paid for it. And it's not because I want to make a lot of money. It's just because I want to not be stressed and I want to be able to serve more. Right. Like that's a good thing. You can do good things with money if you have have it, but when you're stressed about it, that's not a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:58:42] I'm going to just take this moment to kind of tell progressive and post Mormons, like, if you want people to be able to have a healthy experience kind of questioning or leaving the church, but you don't want to support an infrastructure of therapists, coaches, podcasters, events organizers. If you're not willing to support them them, then they go away. They disappear.

Jesse Funk [01:59:08] Yeah, because we can't.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] John Larsen's a great example of a great podcaster. Legendary podcaster that just had to quit because he couldn't do a full time job and do an amazing podcast. I'm super grateful that my listeners have stepped up and made it so I can do this full time. And they've been so supportive that I could now bring Gerardo on, bring Brooklyn on and bring Carah on. And the multiple of that is we try, you know, we feel like we have some job security and we can be around for a long time, long time and have a multiple, kind of an exponential difference over time. But that all exists because post Mormons, progressive Mormons are willing to financially support it.

John Dehlin [01:59:43] And if you think about, just think about the first presidencies, the quorum of the 12, all the quorums of the general 30, 70s, and then all the employees at church headquarters. If you want to have any chance of getting the word out of letting people know the truth about the church church and providing new community, new support, you've gotta, you've got to support it. And you should be proud and happy. Not like why are those people charging money for, you know.

Jesse Funk [02:00:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:00:12] You step up and support it and then we can have decade, multi decade institutions of non profits and therapists and coaches and organizations and, and you know, I'm grateful that, that we've been able to scratch out a living. Sunstone still hanging in there. And, and that's kind of, I'm really excited to see what happens for, especially for Truth.

Jesse Funk [02:00:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:00:34] And Thrive and other organizations that are trying to, you know, so just support, please people, support these organizations. Don't beat them up for making a living.

Jesse Funk [02:00:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:45] You want to donate and you just call it secular tithing, call it post Mormon tithing. Take, we don't ask for 10%, take 1% of your income and just support worthy, progressive and post Mormon causes. And it's going to just help tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people.

Jesse Funk [02:01:02] Yeah. And I'm really committed to trying my best at this especially for truth thing like the camp we just did in Bear Lake was unbelievably amazing to me. I, I just loved every second of it and I want to do it again next summer with a hundred kids. And we found this great place down in southern Utah, but it's going to cost 20 grand to rent it out completely. So it's just for us.

John Dehlin [02:01:24] That's the rental.

Jesse Funk [02:01:24] That's the rental. And so don't.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] And you try and pay speakers.

Jesse Funk [02:01:28] Exactly. I am definitely pay the speakers. I. That's so important. And then like the food and to pay people to cook that food and to get the kids some swag bags and then supplies for the activities. I mean I do a good camp like, it's not just us sitting around roasting s'. Mores. Like, it's. It's gonna be fantastic shirts and. Right.

John Dehlin [02:01:49] Water bottles.

Jesse Funk [02:01:49] Yeah. Like, we. I think we did a really great job. I had this amazing team and you were so incredible. The kids loved you so much, Carah. They loved you. And so if we're gonna do a good job, we have to have the money to do it. And I'm never gonna apologize for asking. And we did get a couple of donations already, and I'm so excited about it. And then there have been also a couple people that are like, oh, this looks like a money making thing. I'm not gonna donate. And I'm like, that was really triggering to me because I'm like, that's exactly the mentality that was in the church. We've got to get away from that.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] You know who smiles at that mentality? The Mormon Church. The LDS Church loves it.

Jesse Funk [02:02:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:02:23] When progressive and post Mormons tear down and destroy people trying to do good who need to be compensated to make it sustainable. Because then there's no. There are no resources, no support. Jeremy Runnels, why can you do CES Letter? Because a bunch of you have donated to make CES Letter possible. Like, that's the. The way it works. So thanks to everyone who supports us. Thanks to everyone who supports Jeremy. Thanks to everyone who supports Lindsay.

Jesse Funk [02:02:49] Please.

John Dehlin [02:02:50] Progressive and post Mormons, just pay it forward.

Jesse Funk [02:02:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:53] And we can create this great community, great set of resources and tools and events that can actually start filling. Because religion is. It's not just Mormonism that's dying. It's every major Christian religious tradition in the developed world.

Jesse Funk [02:03:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] What, as a society, are we gonna replace religion with? We still need friends. We still need community. We still need morality. We still need social infrastructure. We've got to find a way to create it.

Jesse Funk [02:03:21] That's right. And I look at our amazing TikTok community. Like, Carah. Like, I imagine that the effort you put into each and every TikTok, like, takes time. I imagine you're actually, like, writing scripts maybe. Like, okay, all right. I imagine most of them, at least, you spend. You don't just, like, pick up your camera and hit record. Like, you put thought into it.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] Quit underselling it. It is a huge sacrifice. Carah spends her life on Tik Tok and then says, oh, I just spend a couple minutes here and there. That's not true. It's a huge, massive investment, huge thing.

Jesse Funk [02:03:52] And she's not doing hers. She's doing Mormon stories and helping you with Yours. Like the effort that you're putting in is so beneficial for everybody. And I just love our exmo tik tok community. But in order for everyone to grow together, we have to support each other. We have to. And we got to get over to the fear of like, what is it? What's the real fear about? Are we scared we're going to be all worldly and materialistic? Like, where, where does that fear come from? So ask yourself where it comes from if it's an issue for you.

Carah Burrell [02:04:17] And let's be clear, because we were saying about people, this community, donating, this is all under the context of whatever somebody could afford, reward and what they find value in. This is not under the same context that the church puts you under the constraint that you

John Dehlin [02:04:33] 10 gross for life.

Carah Burrell [02:04:35] Yeah. Just making sure that there is a huge distinction. And I know that it's, it's a sticky subject to bring up money when we're talking of anybody trying to make money off of anything. You want to know what their intentions are and really trying to go back to. Like so many people need help and healing and growth and these podcasts and what you're doing with, especially for truth, it's really like the proof is in the pudding that people need this and we will always try to put it out there for free for as cheap as we can.

John Dehlin [02:05:05] But anyway, we give away our content. Yeah, it's free.

Carah Burrell [02:05:08] Yeah, there's, there's never going to be like a paywall at Mormon Stories and we want to keep it that way because people have been so generous. So I hope people won't conflate it too much with the, the model that's within the church and just donate out of the goodness of.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] No, no, it's not that. I'm stealing this from John Larsen. Once he said, what a brilliant, what a brilliant move. What a brilliant stroke by the Mormon Church to teach this idea of priestcraft, where literally the first presidency and the quorum of the 12, they're all millionaires, all the quorum of the 70. First first quorum of the 70, they're all making six figures. All of the managing directors and high level employees, even mid level managers, managers at the church, all six figures. A multi hundred billion dollar organization, A trillion dollar organization. And then if a few measly progressive and post Mormons want to make some podcasts or create an event, we're going to like call them priestcraft people and tear them apart and rip them to shreds and bury them in the ground.

John Dehlin [02:06:07] The church loves that they are able to like, be a trillion dollar organization where then the people who leave that organization eat and, and cannibalize and destroy anyone who tries to literally stand up to. To make a difference for all these people struggling. Anyway, we've belabored that point.

Carah Burrell [02:06:24] And one last thing that I do want to belabor is if anyone wants to accuse us of just, you know, being down in the mud or doing too many things that are just not advantageous to growth, please let us know. Because we want to facilitate growth and healing and community. And if we are seen as profiting off of bashing the church, that is not the direction that Mormon stories wants to go. That's what. Nuance. No, just kidding. That was a joke. No, no. It's all about people finding validation and humor and healing in this post Mormon space. So if that, that, if that accusation is ever made, please send us your best examples.

Carah Burrell [02:07:00] Please help us grow so that we are not stuck in that space. That's not facilitating the best postmormon growth that we possibly can have. So. And then the second point is in the chat, people are being really generous with super chats and donating.

John Dehlin [02:07:14] That's where someone on YouTube donates money.

Carah Burrell [02:07:16] Right? Donates money. Yeah. Sorry. And I just also wanted to plug the Especially for Truth event that we went to at Bear Lake where John and I spoke on different days. So we kind of missed each other. But Jesse worked so hard. I mean, I was.

John Dehlin [02:07:30] And you didn't really make money.

Carah Burrell [02:07:31] Justly impressed. And I just wanted to say that she didn't really. I don't think you made any money on it.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] I've been. I told Jesse this. I've been waiting 15, 16 years for someone to do a post Mormon efy.

Carah Burrell [02:07:42] Seriously.

John Dehlin [02:07:43] Jesse's the first ever do it. And it was a brilliant camp, so well done. And my sense is you. You actually maybe lost money.

Jesse Funk [02:07:51] I didn't lose any, but I didn't make any. It was.

John Dehlin [02:07:54] And you paid the speaker, so you paid other people and didn't pay yourself.

Jesse Funk [02:07:58] Yeah, and that's totally fine. And because I would like to move forward. This was an experiment, so I'd like to move forward. And I will pay myself moving forward for sure. Because it is so much time and I'm more than happy to do it if I'm able to do it. So, like, to your point, just having enough. It's not about making a ton, but I know that my heart's in the right place. I want to do a good job and I'm not willing to do it half assed. I'm going to do it it right. And you need money to do it right. So.

John Dehlin [02:08:27] So if there's any amazing women out there, post Mormon women who are in Utah or want to come to Utah next week for a few days, it's going to be amazing. I'm going to be there. Carah's going to be there. Leah Young. This is a mid. Mid mid podcast announcement. Mark Osland. Chelsea. Chelsea, Homer, come Healing, Growth, Community friends. Next week go to Especially for Truth and register 20 people will help make that event profitable so that Jesse doesn't walk away having done another event where she literally made no money.

Carah Burrell [02:09:04] Especially for truth.com and I also left. I'm gonna just keep pushing that. You can donate on the Especially for Truth website even if you don't buy a ticket. You can. If you just want to support Jesse and everything that she's doing, you can just go donate. What is it, like through PayPal or something?

Jesse Funk [02:09:18] Just you guys, the cause.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [02:09:20] And that. And I promise, like, any like donation monies, I promise will go toward half scholarships. I don't give full scholarships. I'll be very transparent about that. I've been burned so many times because I've been running events for way too long. You have to have some skin in the game. But I'm, I'm definitely going to offer as many half scholarships as possible to try to make sure that the kids who need to get there will get there. So donations, I promise, will go towards helping kids be able to come.

Carah Burrell [02:09:44] That's great.

Seeds of a Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [02:09:45] Okay, let's jump back to your story and I want to talk about. I mean, you got married, right? And you had kids and you then had to deal with the faith crisis. So should we jump there now?

Jesse Funk [02:09:56] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:09:59] That's the meat of this. That's the meat of this story.

Jesse Funk [02:10:02] Yeah. So, yeah, I guess we'll start with like, I got divorced last year, so it's only been about a year.

John Dehlin [02:10:07] No, we don't want to start there. Let's go back.

Carah Burrell [02:10:09] Okay.

Jesse Funk [02:10:09] Well, yeah, all right. So got married two months after I turned 20. So, you know, such a young kid.

John Dehlin [02:10:15] How long did you know your fiance?

Jesse Funk [02:10:18] About a year and a half. Ish.

John Dehlin [02:10:20] That's pretty good.

Jesse Funk [02:10:20] Yeah, he was 35. He was a lot older than me, but I just felt this obscene pressure and I don't know where it came from. It wasn't from my parents, but I just feel like in our culture we just push marriage and family and the girls get that messaging so much that it just Creates pressure. And maybe it was from my own mind, but I do attribute some of it to our culture. But I wanted it. I wanted to be a wife and a mother, and I deeply loved being in those roles. But I also didn't allow myself to develop my own identity enough or my education enough. I was 12 credits away from my associate's degree and I stopped to get married. And like, I look back on that now and I just look at my daughter and I'm like, over my dead body. You are getting your bachelor's degree before you get married.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] You didn't finish.

Jesse Funk [02:11:14] Well, I didn't finish at that point. It took me eight years to go back and finish my bachelor's.

John Dehlin [02:11:20] I did that to Margi. I really regret it.

Jesse Funk [02:11:22] It's a hard thing. That's really, really difficult.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] But at the time, her education didn't matter.

Jesse Funk [02:11:28] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:11:28] Oh, if we can get that along the way, great. But I'm going to get my job. You're coming with me. We're going to start having kids. I hate that part of me in the church and what that does to people.

Jesse Funk [02:11:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:38] Women.

Jesse Funk [02:11:38] So legit, that part. Yeah. And so I. Yeah, we got married and I got pregnant right on our honeymoon.

John Dehlin [02:11:46] Temple marriage.

Jesse Funk [02:11:47] Nope. We got married civilly first and then a year later.

John Dehlin [02:11:51] Okay.

Jesse Funk [02:11:52] Yeah. So anyway, that's a temple marriage. Right, Right. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] Isn't it funny that in the church you have to. You couldn't just say, yeah, I got temple married. You have to, like, explain. You have to, like, satisfy the church's purity culture.

Jesse Funk [02:12:09] That's hilarious.

John Dehlin [02:12:10] That it wasn't a legitimate temple marriage. You had to tell us that there was that year. And then, of course, the church wanted you. The church wanted you to tell that.

Jesse Funk [02:12:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:18] Because. Because why?

Jesse Funk [02:12:20] Because we are conditioned to think that it's less. That's not less. I was less worthy. Yeah. That is so interesting. I just fell right into that.

Carah Burrell [02:12:28] I know, like a flag on the field. No, you just. You spoke like you.

John Dehlin [02:12:34] It's conditioning. The wiring runs deep. Right.

Jesse Funk [02:12:37] Hilarious.

Carah Burrell [02:12:37] You had a temple marriage, whatever that

John Dehlin [02:12:40] means, but you had to self shame because the church conditioned you to self shame.

Jesse Funk [02:12:44] That is so interesting that I just did that. I'm so fascinated. I hope everyone that's listening pays attention to that. It's so indoctrinated. Indoctrinated.

John Dehlin [02:12:50] That's indoctrination for the non Mormons, because not getting married immediately in the temple,

Jesse Funk [02:12:55] people are going to instantly assume you weren't worthy to.

John Dehlin [02:12:58] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [02:12:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] Yeah. That is meaning you had some type of sexual interactions. I mean, not. Not. I'm not asking about you. I'm saying that in Mormon culture, if you wait a year to get married in the temple, but get married civilly first to Mormons, it means that you must have had some type of sexual interaction. But that's not even true, because so many people have sexual interactions and then just lie about it, or they happen to have a lenient bishop, and then there's others that are either honest or just have a jerk of a bishop that end up getting publicly shamed.

Jesse Funk [02:13:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] Is that right?

Jesse Funk [02:13:28] Yep, exactly. So, yeah, all that was really interesting. Yeah. So I got pregnant real fast, started having babies, and just. I loved it. I loved it. My daughter is. Has always been just the light of my life. I'm just obsessed with her. So love being a mother. Definitely wanted intentionally to be a mother. I just wish I had finished my education first before I became a mother, because it was very hard to do that while being a mother. But, hey, so grateful that we have online programs. It was fantastic. I did a bachelor's in psychology. I did a master's degree in theater because I wanted to use theater as a healing modality to go with my social work degree, and then spent two and two years and eight months doing a master's in social work, and I'm gonna start a doctorate in January.

John Dehlin [02:14:14] Really?

Jesse Funk [02:14:14] I love school. I'm hoping Simmons University is the same place I did my masters. I just. I love it, and I love that it's an option. So online school, Yay. So great. But, man, I wish someone would have said, hey, your education matters. You matter. Your identity matters. You can. You have the rest of your life to be married. Married and. And be a mother. Finish that if you have time. You're not. You don't need to be in such a hurry. Like, I really wish someone would have said that anyway. So. Yeah. And I mean, I. I really. At that point in the marriage, I. I tried so hard to be.

John Dehlin [02:14:53] So did you do the Mormon. Did you do the orthodox Mormon kind of family?

Jesse Funk [02:14:56] A thousand percent.

John Dehlin [02:14:57] So talk about what that meant.

Jesse Funk [02:14:59] Yeah. Scripture study every single night. Church was absolutely not negotiable, even if we were on vacation. It was kind of a. I grew up in a home where if we're on vacation, you don't. You don't go to church. Like, you can do your thing. But to him, it was very, very important, and I respected that and happily did it. Going to the temple at least once a month, I wore the garments even though the second I Put them on. I really hated them. Hated them, like, with an actual passion. Felt like they were very wrong, strong. Felt like it was all about control, like, a physical way to control people. I. Oh, it was so very, very disturbing to me.

Temple Covenants and Doubts About Doctrine

John Dehlin [02:15:38] Was the temple ceremony hard for you?

Jesse Funk [02:15:40] Yes, Yes. I actually wanted. I would say traumatizing. I really would use that word. And I. I'm careful when I use that word because I. Like, I was talking about with bullying. Like, people say, oh, I got bullied, and because one person was mean to me one time. So we can't call that bullying. So when we use the word trauma, we have to be careful how we use it. But I. Honestly, the first time I went to the temple, I was traumatized. I was terrified to know.

John Dehlin [02:16:06] Did you talk about that, or is it.

Jesse Funk [02:16:07] Yeah, like, no one prepared me for any of it. I took the temple prep class, and that was. There was nothing in there that was useful. What we wore was incredibly uncomfortable. And when you very first go in, you do an initiator, and you wear this shield where it's open on both sides. You are naked underneath. I happen to have been on my period that day. No one told me. Not one person prepared me for that. So I was just terrified. And you're in a white shield, so women. I know. I can just feel everyone bristling. Like, all of that was just so scary. And no one tells you what to prepare for. And you have these women that are touching your body in different. Different places under that shield.

John Dehlin [02:16:52] Except with oil, right?

Jesse Funk [02:16:53] Yeah. I mean, it was just so uncomfortable. And then. And then there's another part called the endowment ceremony where you have to veil your face. You have to chant. I. I was so terrified. And. And the entire time, I was. I know people really don't like the word cult, but that's what I was thinking. The whole time. I thought, this. What is this? Like, I. I was so uncomfortable, and no one prepared me for it because you can't talk about it.

John Dehlin [02:17:23] What about the covenanting to your husband as he covenants to God? Was that part of your endeavor? Yeah.

Jesse Funk [02:17:29] I remember just thinking, okay, so there's a. There's a system here. I. I'm down here on the list. Like, I just remember feeling like he's. He's the most important thing. I have to just obey him, do what he says, says I didn't like that did not resonate in my heart.

John Dehlin [02:17:48] So the trauma was just doing something that felt uncomfortable that you weren't prepared for.

Jesse Funk [02:17:53] Yeah, exactly. And then there is a part where you go through all of the. The sessions, and then you go into a celestial room, and it's just this room that's meant to be really beautiful. And there's the. It's like this amazing white carpet and these grand chandeliers, and.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] And.

Jesse Funk [02:18:09] And. And my entire family was in there ready to receive me. And they were all saying, wasn't it so beautiful? Oh, we're so proud of you for making this decision. And. And so you feel this intense pressure to say what you know they want to say. Yeah, it was beautiful. Oh, I loved it. And I tried to just find something I could be honest about. And so there is, like, a promise in the initiatory where they say. They say, if you. If you are faithful, your sins are wiped clean. And I. That was the only thing that I could find that was positive. So when my husband.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] Because the church had made you feel like you were a bad person for the mistakes you'd made.

Jesse Funk [02:18:49] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:18:49] So now they made you feel clean.

Jesse Funk [02:18:51] Right. And so. And my husband had been through the temple already. He had been married before we got married, and so he was like, wasn't it beautiful? Didn't you love it? And I. I was just racking my brain for anything I could find. And I said, yeah, that. That part was. Was really cool that my sins are wiped clean, you know, whatever. Like, I. It was like I had to find it. I mean, there was nothing. There was nothing in there that I thought was spiritual or beautiful or comfortable or. Or comforting. Nothing. It was all scary. It was all uncomfortable, made me confused, and then instantly made me question God. Like, I. Not just the church, I was just. Just like a God would design this, because this is not okay. I didn't. I didn't like any of it.

John Dehlin [02:19:36] I'm so sorry.

Jesse Funk [02:19:37] Yeah. And I've talked to so many people who had the same experience. That's why this podcast and the Facebook group has been such a godsend. Because I thought I was just bad. I just thought.

John Dehlin [02:19:46] Were you able to tell someone you hated it?

Jesse Funk [02:19:48] No.

John Dehlin [02:19:48] Why not?

Jesse Funk [02:19:49] For years and years.

John Dehlin [02:19:50] Why not?

Jesse Funk [02:19:50] Because everyone says it's so beautiful. And I was like, what is wrong with me? Like, I'm. There is something so wrong with me. Why can't. Why can't I be spiritual? What's wrong with me? That's not fair. It's not fair to let someone go through their entire life thinking they're bad or broken or damaged or weird or crazy when they are trying to believe a broken system.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] Like, and when everyone else feels the Same way.

Jesse Funk [02:20:14] Exactly. Like, that's just so unfair. For so many years, like years and years and years, probably two decades, I just truly believe I was just messed up. And that's so awful to me now. I wasted so much time. So now I am kind of like on this, like, women empowerment kick. Like, I'm not gonna waste any more time. I know I'm a good person. I know that I care about people. I know I'm a good mother. I know I was a very good wife. I sacrificed so much of myself, my integrity, to try to be a good wife. Like, I'm gonna just honor that now. Like, forget all this, like, humility crap. I know I'm a good person. I'm no longer wasting time telling myself I'm bad or I'm crazy or I'm weird. No more.

John Dehlin [02:21:04] I love it. And I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Jesse Funk [02:21:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:21:08] So that's not a great way to start a marriage. Right. I mean, Mormons do weddings so terribly. Like, I've been to some, some ex Mormon weddings or some non Mormon weddings and they're so fun.

Jesse Funk [02:21:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] But it, you know.

Jesse Funk [02:21:21] Yeah. I did not like my wedding. I just wanted to please everyone else. I made every decision based on what everyone else thought. I mean, here's one example. I wanted to sing. I wanted to sing at my own wedding. I wanted to sing to my husband. I think that's a special thing. That's how it's one of my favorite ways to communicate. And someone in his family, she's, she said, you're not going to sing to him at your wedding. Or you, like, just said, it's so snotty. And I was like, would that be weird? And she's like, that's so cheesy. It's just so cheesy. So I didn't, we didn't have any program.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] She was probably just jealous of your voice.

Jesse Funk [02:21:56] Probably. But I listened. I listened. I was trying so hard to please everyone all my life and just trying to make everyone else happy. Completely disregarding myself and my desires and my thoughts, my feelings. Feelings. And that's popular. That is celebrated the Mormon way. Yeah. That's a good thing to do. That's a selfless thing to do, to disregard yourself.

John Dehlin [02:22:21] Giving Tree is the model Mormon woman, right?

Jesse Funk [02:22:25] Yeah. And then you just become a suffocated little shell of a person.

John Dehlin [02:22:30] Stump.

Jesse Funk [02:22:32] Not good. I, I, I will shout that from the rooftops. That is not a way to look live. We only have one sure thing. It's this life. Not the next one. So I'm living for this life now. I'm no longer even concerned what's gonna happen. I do not care. I'm living right now, and I'm gonna enjoy what's left of my life now that I'm free.

John Dehlin [02:22:56] Do I get an amen? Carah?

Carah Burrell [02:22:57] That's an amen from me. We. We talked about that a lot. Sorry, John, that you missed it out. We had this kind of fun open discussion, Bear Lake, with the teenagers about that concept, because that. Into somebody who's religious, that concept is very difficult for people to wrestle with, that there isn't something guaranteed in the next life. And giving that up is very painful. And, okay, well, what's the purpose of all this? How do I know where I get my morality from? Those are big questions, and I don't want to underplay how difficult that is. It really is difficult to know your place in the world, world, religious or otherwise.

Carah Burrell [02:23:30] And so it's a beautiful thing to hear where I said this in my. In my talk and you're repeating it now that, like, you just have to be comfortable knowing that, like, you care about your relationships, you care about being good to people. You know that just based on the evidence and the fruits of your life, like. Like, damn it, I know I'm a good person. I know that I care about people and the other beliefs, and trying to please everyone else is. It's too great of a burden for just one person to. To put on their shoulders. And I think that's kind of a message that especially for Truth, got across in.

Carah Burrell [02:24:04] In a. A plethora of different ways, at least with the. The speakers and things and the. She had these cute little booklets, you guys, with, like, all of these critical thinking, like, what do you call them? Like, graphics and stuff of just putting up boundaries of like. Like, yes, I know sometimes religious people. I know it's really difficult to hear somebody say that, like, I'm living for this life. That sounds like, eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

Jesse Funk [02:24:27] Right.

Carah Burrell [02:24:28] I know it can be interpreted really negatively, but there's a beauty in that. There's a. There's a time to get to work within this. This life that is guaranteed. There's a. There's a real healthy attitude that can be adapted in the exact way that I think Jesse just articulated. So I hope that's what people kind of. Of are picking up right now.

Jesse Funk [02:24:46] Me too. There's freedom in it once you allow yourself to celebrate that this moment is what we have for sure. I think there's freedom in that, like letting yourself just celebrate this beautiful moment and then being your best self in this moment. I think it's the best way to become your best self is to live more presently. So yeah, that idea of not living for the next life, focusing on this, this one, I think that's one of the best things we could teach our children. As a therapist, if I had to pick one thing, I think that's the thing I would teach.

Carah Burrell [02:25:17] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what we kind of got into the discussion in Bear Lake is that's a difficult thing when you're a parent.

Jesse Funk [02:25:22] Yes, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:25:23] To, to help them to grow into a morality where they want to choose the right. Sorry, I'm co opting it from the church now where you do want them to make good choices with them also having the context that you're going to have to be responsible. There's not a God who's going to be blessing you or cursing you based on that. Like that's a difficult thing. Will you talk more about that, of how you are able to teach that to teenagers and how what you just said can. It can, yeah. It can kind of go a south way.

Jesse Funk [02:25:53] It can for sure. For sure. And. But I think here's the beautiful thing that I learned from the kids at eft. They want to be good.

Carah Burrell [02:26:02] I totally agree.

Jesse Funk [02:26:03] I totally believe that every human being wants to do what? Well, they want to do good, they want to be good. I think we're born with that. That's my opinion. And I, I definitely believe in evil. Like, I believe that like some people are, are truly have evil intentions. Sure. But I, I believe that everyone starts out wanting to be good. And so these kids, they were so incredible with their critical thinking skills. They were the ones saying, I, my religion now is to be a good person. My religion is to treat everyone with empathy. My religion now is to try to serve and like make something of myself and add something to the world and leave a legacy.

Jesse Funk [02:26:38] And we talked a lot about legacy. And so they are thinking long term, but allowing themselves to live in the moment helps them make a better decision for the long term. So honestly, I think for parents, I think it comes down to giving your kid the room and the space to trust themselves and their natural instincts. And if they're getting off course, like of course we have to have, have some, some consequences for it and we got to teach, we have to guide. But giving them that space to say I trust you and, and I want to just see you shine. I want to see you who you want to become, without a religion telling you who to become and a religion telling you how to think.

Jesse Funk [02:27:16] I believe that when we give kids the opportunity to be leaders, they step into that. They love it, they own it. That's what happened to me. So I believe it so strongly. But we have to give them the space to do that. It. We have to show them that we trust them. So I guess I believe in. I believe in humans that way.

John Dehlin [02:27:33] Love it.

Jesse Funk [02:27:33] That might be naive, but I do. I believe in that. I think I'm a humanist. I'm super agnostic, and I'm so happy to be agnostic now, but I think I. If I had to maybe choose something, I. I'm a humanist. I believe in the power of humans.

John Dehlin [02:27:47] So you were living the super orthodox life, even though you had a lot of doubts in your mind, going to the temple monthly, all the things. So how had the kids? And then what happened?

Jesse Funk [02:28:03] I think I just started noticing that no matter what I did, it wasn't good enough. It wasn't. I wasn't earning the testimony. I definitely noticed that.

John Dehlin [02:28:14] So, like, years in, how many years in are you starting to think about that?

Jesse Funk [02:28:18] Probably about five years in. And I'm really gonna try to be very careful what I say, because I need my children to be proud of this if they ever hear it. But.

John Dehlin [02:28:29] And it's always tough with exes. You don't want to trust them.

Jesse Funk [02:28:31] Exactly. So I would like this to be taken in the spirit that I'm sending it. So I'm only gonna try to speak from my. My perspective. But, you know, there were. There were a lot of things, like in the marriage itself that just weren't. That weren't healthy.

John Dehlin [02:28:43] Let me ask you this way. Are there. Are there ways that Mormonism and patriarchy make marriage hard and you don't even have to say things about your husband, ex husband. You can just say maybe. Maybe there were ways that Mormonism didn't set us up for success. And then you can talk about it that way.

Jesse Funk [02:28:59] Okay, I love that. Thank you for framing it that way. So, yes, I think when. When men grow up in a system where they are told, you're. You're the end all, be all, you are the priesthood holder, um, you get the last say. You are. You're the one that. I mean, for example, like when people say that the church is not sexist, all we have to say is, can a woman give herself a calling? Can a woman teach any lesson in. In church without a man's permission? Or a man inviting her to do that. No, that's just not how it works. So there is sexism that exists. And when a man grows up in that system, of course there is just gonna be entitlement. There's gonna be, I would say, some narcissistic tendencies where they think they are actually superior in decision making. Or. Or my opinion is better than yours.

John Dehlin [02:29:56] Critical thinking skills.

Jesse Funk [02:29:57] Exactly. Exactly. So I think that that just naturally happens. And so I. I don't.

John Dehlin [02:30:02] How does that affect the relationship when that happens?

Jesse Funk [02:30:05] There's blatant disrespect of a woman's opinion. There is the dismissal of a woman's opinion. There is not even listening to the woman's opinion. There is a lack of support for a woman wanting to do anything outside of the perfect Mormon box, you know,

John Dehlin [02:30:23] and also, you know, patriarchy hurts men as well.

Jesse Funk [02:30:27] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:27] And so what, you know, you know, humans are generally sexual beings, period. There's a stereotype that men sometimes have higher libidos than women, which is often not true. But regardless, both men and women enjoy sexuality. And what I think everyone would agree on is that good emotional health, good emotional intimacy is an important precursor to healthy sexual intimacy. Yes. And I would just. I would. I can only imagine what being in a marriage that feels very patriarchal, what that might do to emotional intimacy.

Jesse Funk [02:31:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:04] And then how that might affect an. And maybe. And I'm not asking about your sex life. I am only just saying, as I'm trying to think through the ways that. That the patriarchy can hurt a marriage is when there isn't good emotional intimacy, partly because a woman might feel resentful because of how she's being talked down to or treated, then there's not a healthy emotional or sometimes healthy sex life, which. Which can affect everybody.

Jesse Funk [02:31:31] Absolutely. So, yeah, they're all connected. And. And it's definitely a system that. That could destroy a family. And in our case, it did.

John Dehlin [02:31:42] So how would. What can you say about, like, how that all progressed, the church and the marriage and everything?

Jesse Funk [02:31:48] Yeah. I'll just say when I finally admitted to him that I had questions and doubts, I did not say I was leaving. I did not say. I don't. I don't believe it. All I said was, I have questions and doubts.

John Dehlin [02:32:01] How many years into the marriage?

Jesse Funk [02:32:03] This was probably. Maybe. Maybe 30. So about 10 years. I finally.

John Dehlin [02:32:10] That was 10 years into the marriage, and he was 15 years old. Seven or eight years into the marriage, he is 15 years older. That's another added complicator, is that. That age difference, you add that to a kind of a patriarchal upbringing for you both. Both. That's.

Carah Burrell [02:32:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:25] That's got to be hard.

Carah Burrell [02:32:26] Yeah.

Faith Crisis Deepens and Discovering Mormon Stories

Jesse Funk [02:32:26] There were a lot of complexities around so many. So many things.

John Dehlin [02:32:30] Was there. Were there some things that happened that kind of started your faith crisis going more into a stronger mode? And is there anything you want to talk about? Like what. What kind of led to your faith eroding?

Jesse Funk [02:32:42] Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was all the things that I kind of grew up thinking about. Like, I mean, I am such an advocate and an ally for the LGBT community because of my experience on the Footloose tour. And then the things that didn't resonate even from as a child, like eternal marriage, I. I always felt like it was a threat. Not a. Not a beautiful promise of being together forever. It was a threat. I will lose my family if I don't do all these things. I don't know why I saw it that way, and I know a lot of people don't, and that's totally okay.

Jesse Funk [02:33:10] They see it as this beautiful promise, we can be together if we do all these things. But in my mind, it was pressure, it was scary. It was, I have to do these things. This has to be done right, or else I will lose my family.

Jesse Funk [02:33:25] Yeah. And being a mother is just the most important thing to me. So that was very, very important to me. So I did everything right. Everything down to the letter. I did it even though I really didn't believe it. So there were all those things. But then I really started spending more time with like, LGBT people and like, I guess hearing more stories of real humans. And it, to me, it always comes back to empathy award.

John Dehlin [02:33:51] Was this, as young women's leader, was this through music stuff or all of it?

Jesse Funk [02:33:55] All of it. I mean, here's an example. I was always in young women's. That was always my calling. And so there was one time I was teaching a lesson on Joseph Smith and I was reading the words in the manual and I had prepared. But when I was in the moment I was teaching, I. I was reading something and saying it out loud. And I thought to myself, I don't believe that. I don't believe that. And not only do I not believe that, I actually think this information could hurt these beautiful girls. And I was looking at These gorgeous little 12 year old, precious little girls, and I was like, I'm going to teach them something that I don't believe and something I think could hurt them.

John Dehlin [02:34:29] Do you remember what the teaching was?

Jesse Funk [02:34:31] I Don't remember. I actually looked for it because I wanted to, to find it, but it hit me so hard and I was like, it's two separate things. It's. I don't believe it and it's wrong. Can't do it. I close the manual, put it away and we. We played a game. I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. So there were moments like that where I just like, I can't but keep betraying my integrity. I don't believe this stuff. I'm trying to believe it, but I'm still not getting that testimony. I'm not earning it. That promise of a testimony is found by the bearing of it is not working. So I can't leave lie. I cannot lie about this anymore. So it was those types of things. But then CES letter.

John Dehlin [02:35:05] So around what rabbit hole?

Jesse Funk [02:35:07] This was probably, I want to say 2010. Ish. Somewhere around there.

Carah Burrell [02:35:17] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [02:35:17] So it was probably about seven or eight years in.

John Dehlin [02:35:18] She said it comes out, I think in 2013, 2014.

Jesse Funk [02:35:22] Oh, okay. Okay. So all of these belief systems were probably. I was acknowledging those finally around 2010, because I had told my husband, I have beliefs and doubts, or I don't. Sorry, I have. I have doubts about the beliefs. That's all I said. So I was just wrestling with how I felt, my critical thinking and just things not resonating. The church's stance on. On LGBT issues, racism, sexism, all of those things.

John Dehlin [02:35:48] Because Prop 8 would have happened in 2008.

Jesse Funk [02:35:50] Okay. So that was.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] So by 2010. And that probably would have been a real big issue.

Jesse Funk [02:35:55] Yeah, that was a huge issue for me. And I really hated that the church wanted us to donate money to it. Yeah, they just assumed that we would agree and they said, donate money to this.

John Dehlin [02:36:03] To take marriage away from Californians to get from same sex married Californians.

Jesse Funk [02:36:08] Yeah. Crazy. That hit me very hard. That was not okay with me. All of that stuff was happening around then. And then I found the CES letter, but I found Mormon stories before, I think before that.

John Dehlin [02:36:20] So had you been warned about Mormon stories? So how did you hear about it? I'm just curious.

Jesse Funk [02:36:26] I think, I think a friend had told me that they listened or. No, No, A friend told me that they're. That they knew someone that was on it and they were like, it was actually a really, really beautiful story. I think you'd actually like it. They don't bash the church, but be careful because there are other Mormon stories, interviews that, that do bash the church. So you don't want to listen to all of them, but just listen to that one. And I was like, okay. So anyway, you started listening and loved it. I just fell so madly in love with it, and it was almost like the dam just broke.

Jesse Funk [02:36:55] Like, I had all these beliefs that were, like, building up inside me. And then to hear even one person say, I don't believe that or I don't agree with that, I was just like, wait, what? Wait, what? Like, I need to know who is this person? Who are these people? I need to know everything. So I just went to down the rabbit hole so fast.

John Dehlin [02:37:12] Sometimes people get mad when I ask my interviewees about their experiences with Mormon stories. But I don't do it to stroke my own ego. I do it because sometimes they'll mention some of the episodes that meant a lot to them, which will help someone going through a faith crisis now know which episodes to listen to that could be helpful. So I'll ask you this for only that reason, were there episodes that kind of stuck out to you as really meaningful or really helpful from then to now? Like in anything stick out?

Jesse Funk [02:37:42] Oh, yeah. I can't remember what that first one was that I listened to. I'd actually love to go find it again because I loved it. I loved it so much. Tom. Tom.

John Dehlin [02:37:52] Tom Phillips.

Jesse Funk [02:37:53] Yep, Tom Phillips.

John Dehlin [02:37:54] His interview, was it about that, do you remember?

Jesse Funk [02:37:56] Just that he was so honest and he was in a position of so much power and was so brave and at the expense of kind of losing his. His family and. Or being, you know, disengaged from his family, like the sacrifice that was. I just respect him so much.

John Dehlin [02:38:11] What'd you think of the second anointing stuff?

Jesse Funk [02:38:13] Yeah, that was fascinating. Oh, I mind. Mind blowing to me. I just loved it. Natasha Helfer, obviously. Leah Young, because I grew up with her. She's amazing.

John Dehlin [02:38:23] You remember when hers came out, huh?

Jesse Funk [02:38:24] And I was that weird. It was weird.

John Dehlin [02:38:26] And I was like, yes, she would become that.

Jesse Funk [02:38:28] Yeah, I would never have thought that.

John Dehlin [02:38:30] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [02:38:30] No, she was incredible. So, yeah, there was. There's been so many. Honestly, Carah, I'm not flattering you. It's not false flattery. Yours was so inspiring to me. I love John Larsen. I love him. I think he's fantastic. So many.

John Dehlin [02:38:47] We'll add links to some of those in the show. Not some of those episodes.

Jesse Funk [02:38:50] Yeah, they just resonated so much. Obviously, Mark Oslin, he was the. The. That interview was the catalyst for eft. So, yeah, so many great interviews.

John Dehlin [02:38:57] And just to summarize again, you already said it. But listening to other people's stories helped you how?

Jesse Funk [02:39:02] Because I finally opened my mind to the possibility that I wasn't wrong, that I wasn't bad, that I wasn't crazy, and that I wasn't alone. I truly felt like I was the only person on the planet that didn't believe this stuff or I was the only person on the planet that didn't feel the spirit.

John Dehlin [02:39:20] And you were living where at this time?

Jesse Funk [02:39:22] Time this was Davis County. We were all over Davis County.

John Dehlin [02:39:24] And it's. It's probably not easy in Davis county to find someone that. That you could talk to about your doubts and problems with the church.

Jesse Funk [02:39:32] Not then. Now it is. We have some fabulous groups.

John Dehlin [02:39:37] Eleven years ago, back then.

Jesse Funk [02:39:38] No, I didn't talk to anyone. Nobody.

John Dehlin [02:39:41] You. Okay. I just have to make this point. You were kind of going through what your mom. You were kind of like, oh, this is killing me. You were kind of repeating your mom's.

Jesse Funk [02:39:50] Absolutely. We talk about that all the time, my mom and I.

John Dehlin [02:39:53] Did you think about that?

Jesse Funk [02:39:55] I was like, something like this feels very familiar. Why does it feel familiar? Yeah. And we talk about it now, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] Because as a kid of divorce, I was going to not repeat the mistakes of my parents. So I lived with that every day. I can't do what my dad did. I can't do it my. You know what I mean? And you must have been doing that too.

Jesse Funk [02:40:11] Oh, yeah. Because our. The. The marriage was very unhealthy, obviously. And. But I stayed for my children because I didn't want to be that divorced family. And. Oh, she came from a divorce and now she's divorced. Like so much shame, so much shame around it. But with the church. Yeah, I just tried to stay so hard because I didn't want to be that the apostate. I didn't want to be the wayward one. I didn't want my children. I still don't like. It's one of the most painful parts of leaving. I don't want other people to say, oh, kids, I'm so sorry about your mom. Like, she's under the influence of Satan. I mean, like, people say things like that, that, like that's. It's just so painful, so awful.

John Dehlin [02:40:49] So I can imagine people who would be in your shoes having had what happened to your mom happen and just say, nope, never. I'm going to double down. I'm going to just stay with him till the end. I'm going to eat my feelings, self medicate, whatever I need to do to not become my mom.

Jesse Funk [02:41:07] Right.

John Dehlin [02:41:07] Because that's the worst possible thing. What was it? If you even know that made you feel like, no, I'm. I don't care if I. If this ends my marriage. I don't care if I end up being viewed as an apostate. As awful as I know that was for my mom and for me and my kids, I'm going to kind of be authentic anyway. Do you know what it was?

Jesse Funk [02:41:33] I do. I have two very specific things. It was no knowing. Like knowing that I was setting a bad example for my children.

John Dehlin [02:41:41] What do you mean?

Jesse Funk [02:41:42] I was showing them that women stay quiet, women do eat their feelings. Women are not honest. Women just do what they're told to do. I was showing them that through my actions. And my kids are wicked intelligent. They saw it. They knew how I felt, felt. They knew who I really was. And yet I would. I would act differently in order to please the community.

John Dehlin [02:42:09] You didn't want to do that to your kids. You don't want to hurt your kids by living inauthentically.

Jesse Funk [02:42:15] Yeah. So that was 50%. And then the other 50% was. I have known 10 kids myself, personally. Hugged them, looked them in the eye. Not incredibly close, but I was able to connect with them. Them 10 kids that have killed themselves because they were Mormon and gay and specifically said it in their suicide notes.

John Dehlin [02:42:39] 10.

Jesse Funk [02:42:41] I've given speeches to over a million kids in 18 years. So I've. I've been able to reach a lot of kids through my speeches. And so I get sometimes 40 to 50 in Instagram DMS a day.

John Dehlin [02:42:52] And what. What was your experience for why being Mormon was causing. Because the church wants to always say it's the altitude. It's the mountain west region the church never wants to own. And we've got a great episode coming out with the Lang family where we address this very specifically in a very powerful way. So I can't wait for that. The Langs are amazing, all of them. But the church never wants to take responsibility that they create an environment that would make making LGBTQ youth want to end their life. Can you tell us what you observed and why you felt like the church had some responsibility for that? What was it that made you think

LGBT Issues and Leaving the Church

Jesse Funk [02:43:33] that the church is absolutely responsible for it? So here's why. We know that the actual rule, any active LDS person now would say, you can be gay. It's okay to be gay. You just can't live that lifestyle. So you have to be self of it for your entire life. You can't be in a homosexual relationship. That's the policy. So if anyone has any questions on that, confirm that anywhere you want. That's the policy. So for a child, sometimes kids know they're gay when they're 6 years old, 12 years old.

John Dehlin [02:44:07] Yep.

Jesse Funk [02:44:08] And so for these kids growing up knowing they are gay, it's who they are. It's not a choice. It's who they are. And thinking, okay, I. I'm already. Just because I'm gay, I'm already a disappointment. Easy. For my. For my family, my LDS family. I'm already something that's shameful. I'm already something that makes other people feel uncomfortable. You know, when they're around me, they. They feel uncomfortable. This is what kids have told me specifically. And then on top of all that, they don't get to have a relationship ever. They just have to go through their entire life alone. When almost everything in our entire society, every movie, every book, every. Anything that has anything to do with romance shows how beautiful a relationship is.

John Dehlin [02:44:57] How about every sacrament meeting?

Jesse Funk [02:44:58] Thank you. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:44:59] Every youth conference, every efy. Right.

Jesse Funk [02:45:02] Everything tells them that that is the end. All. Be all. They don't get to have it.

John Dehlin [02:45:06] To have an eternal family, to have love.

Jesse Funk [02:45:09] Yes. And they don't get to have it. So, I mean, the last one was this beautiful girl named Katie in Pennsylvania. And it was last year I met her at her high school, and it was only three, I want to say, like three or four months ago from right now that she killed herself. She shot herself in the head, which is really, really rare for girls. It's the boys who usually choose that method.

Jesse Funk [02:45:33] This girl wanted to die so badly and left a note that said, I will never be accepted by my family. I will never be accepted by my community because I'm Mormon and gay. She wrote it in her note like she wanted to die that badly because that was a better alternative than to live this life. It's unacceptable. It's just so unacceptable. And if anyone wants to come at me and tell me, I'm gonna encourage kids to leave by doing this, especially for Truth Camp or by even being on Mormon stories, or by being outspoken, I will show them a picture of this beautiful girl and I will say,

Carah Burrell [02:46:12] what would you do?

Jesse Funk [02:46:13] Answer that question for me. I need to know, what would you do? How would you prevent this precious, beautiful, amazing girl from taking her life? What is your solution? Because I'm doing the very best I can to try to prevent this from happening again, because it can't happen again. Again. But it's going to. It's Going to.

John Dehlin [02:46:30] Happens every month.

Jesse Funk [02:46:32] It's so awful. And Utah has like one of the highest, like, suicide rates, number one cause

John Dehlin [02:46:38] of death for teenagers as far as I understand it.

Jesse Funk [02:46:41] It is so unacceptable.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] And there's a one, two punch. It's not just you can never have love in your entire life to someone you're attracted to. It's that you're, you're broken in this life. And the only way to fix it is once you're dead. Heavenly Father will fix you in the afterlife.

Jesse Funk [02:46:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:59] And the twisted, unfortunate consequence of that awful, terrible, evil, pernicious doctrine is the kids are like, well, if that's the only way I can get fixed, let's just speed it up.

Jesse Funk [02:47:10] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:47:13] Let's just get there.

Jesse Funk [02:47:15] It's so wrong on so many levels. And I will shout that from the root rooftops because we, we have to, we have to try to fix it. I'm doing everything I can possibly think of to try to offer a program that might be able to help that exact thing, that specific thing. And a lot of the kids that came to this last eft were beautiful, rainbow kids and they were so wonderful. So trans kids. Yeah. So if anyone wants to give me any grief about this, this, I have no problem coming right back at him. What are you going to do about it? It's a big, big problem. It's unacceptable to me.

Carah Burrell [02:47:56] And do you think people just, they, they don't confront it unless they have, I guess, like a, a child that comes out as gay? They don't have to confront it.

John Dehlin [02:48:05] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:48:06] Until it's in their face. What the, the church's doctrine around LGBTQ people. People is until, like with the Lang interview, if you guys are gonna be able to watch that. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday will be out this week about the real life consequences of somebody having such strong suicidal tendencies trying to fit within a box that they weren't meant to fit within. So I wanted to ask for people who are listening who are, you know, you could say progressive Mormons. And they would think, well, I don't have these bad views about I love gay people teachings. Right. Yeah. It's like, if my kid comes out, I would accept them. What is your message for people who are still trying to live within the Mormon framework, still completely active in the church, but they're still raising their children with all of the same, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:48:55] I don't know if they think of themselves as LGBT affirming.

Carah Burrell [02:48:57] Yes. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [02:48:58] I have a strong opinion about this, and a lot of people aren't going to like it. It's going to be very harsh, but I'm going to say it anyway. It's, it's great that you want that. It's great that you want to blds and support gay people. Great. That's a nice idea. But just be aware that it doesn't matter if you're nice. They know what you believe. They know you believe that they're not worthy of having love in this life. That's what they believe. So it's not enough.

John Dehlin [02:49:29] Also, you could, your parents can teach their lg. Mormon parents can teach their LGBTQ kids, oh, we love you, we accept you. You're perfect the way way you are. But by raising them in the church, they're getting all the homophobic damaging messages in general conference at youth conferences with side comments made by youth leaders and other kids. So it almost doesn't matter how affirming the parents are.

Jesse Funk [02:49:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:53] You are still setting kids up for the toxicity by putting them in the system.

Jesse Funk [02:49:59] Yeah, unfortunately, I just, I don't think it's enough. I think at some point you have to choose. You're gonna have to choose like, are you going to actually be an ally or the church? You can't have both. That's my opinion. And I know that's really harsh. And I want to be very clear. If, if anyone just came to me and we weren't talking about this in a Mormon context, I would approach it very, very empathetically and I would say, I will meet you exactly where you are. Let's, let's talk through this. Here's how you can just show love. That's a totally different conversation, but for this context, that's, that's my personal belief.

John Dehlin [02:50:30] I also have to add that like, you know, let's just say 10 or 20 years ago, there'd be the argument, well, that's just like 1 to 5%. I mean, it's defying Christ's leave the 99 to go after the 1. That attitude in and of itself is unchristian and sort of, sort of anti Christian because you know, there would have been this attitude of like, well, it's just 1 to 5%. It's just 1 to 5 out of 100 kids. So we're not going to worry about that now. We're getting data back about Gen Z Mormons, not just Gen Z youth. Across the United states, up to 20% of Gen Z Mormon youth are either sexually diverse or gender diverse or both.

John Dehlin [02:51:13] So you're talking about you have four or five kids. One of your kids for sure is going to be in that. Is going to be in that category. So that. And if it's not your immediate kids, it'll be your nieces and nephews, your grandkids, for sure.

Jesse Funk [02:51:26] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:51:27] So this is. This is touching everyone and it's going to just become this problem that swamps the church, really.

Jesse Funk [02:51:33] Yeah. And if it wasn't truly life or death, Right. Like, I mean, it is absolutely life or death for these kids and for, like, what you were saying, where there's just a lot of people who say, I would love to be an advocate, like, if my kid came out, I would be supportive. But until then, they don't. They don't. They don't want to see it. They don't want to see it, they don't want to address it. They don't want to. They don't. They don't want to go to Pride. You know what I mean? They don't want to, like, actively engage in the conversation. They're very comfortable just saying, this is the doctrine and this is just what needs to happen.

Jesse Funk [02:52:03] And they stay in that. That thinking. But it really just comes down, always, Carah, to empathy over orthodoxy. You cannot have both. You can't when it comes down to this. And I think quite a few things, but, like, that it's. At some point it has to be a decision.

Carah Burrell [02:52:20] Yeah. And this is not to shame anyone who is stuck in this in between where their whole life revolves around being in the church and this is their community. But they also want to do their best job that they can to be an ally.

Carah Burrell [02:52:33] It is just, I think, coming down to an acknowledgment that when push comes to shove, like, we really hope that people will step up on the empathy side and not the orthodoxy side side. To. Yeah. Just these systems that have been placed, this religion that was created in a time before we had such better data and understanding of the diversity of the spectrum of human sexuality and gender orientation. As times change and things progress, the church is either going to progress with the times, and as we've known, they're usually a little bit behind. And it's agitators like us, whether it's from the outside in, bottom up, it's people agitating and making enough of a stir where things need to be said.

Carah Burrell [02:53:17] And, yeah, there's. There's still empathy that I think all three of us are trying to get across for people who are. Who are trying to. To walk that fine line within the system while still standing up for what's right. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [02:53:29] Yeah. For sure, absolutely. And I, I really do approach that with a lot of empathy. Empathy. But for this part, I, I do feel comfortable saying it so directly and harshly that it does have to be a choice at some point because it's life and death.

Carah Burrell [02:53:44] Right?

Jesse Funk [02:53:44] Because there are kids that are killing themselves. I think if it wasn't that black and white in my mind, then I would probably have a little more empathy. But I do have a lot of empathy because I also, I have a lot of hope for people who are in the church who truly care about our LGBT kids. I think they truly do care about them. And they're so stuck. They're so stuck. They want to be a good Mormon, but they also really love these kids. And that's a hard place to be. So I have empathy for that, for sure. It's just a hard situation, you know,

John Dehlin [02:54:17] and I, this is just super. I've never done this before in a Mormon stories podcast, but today, I mean, it's just so timely. So the date is August 23rd. Is that, that right? So today this is kind of breaking news. There's a headline and I'm getting, you know, texted from Gerardo and Kyle Hancock and all my friends. There's a headline today, Salt Lake Tribune, byu. And this is just a. We'll come right back to Jesse's story.

John Dehlin [02:54:44] And I don't know if you want to take a quick break while, while I'm telling this story or not. Okay. This is the Salt Lake Tribune headline. BYU professors are expected to defend LDS teachers teachings, not criticize them. Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland says. And now I'm going to read the actual article. On the same day that Brigham Young University announced the creation of an Office of Belonging to combat, quote, prejudice of any kind, including that based on race and sexual orientation, Latter Day Saint Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland sharply criticized faculty members and students who challenged the faith's policies on same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [02:55:21] And he also criticized a BYU valedictorian who announced his gay orientation during his 2019 commencement address. So this is a Mormon church apostle criticizing a BYU valedictorian who just happened to come out during his valedictorian speech. So can you imagine a Mormon apostle publicly condemning you as a member of the church, Church and what it's like to be a gay kid. Now who's hearing in the news that a Mormon apostle came out and condemned a BYU valedictorian for coming, for only coming out as gay? Anyway, it goes on to say during Monday's annual university conference for faculty and staff in the school's Marriage Center. Holland quoted from a recent letter he received which said that some faculty are not supportive of the church's doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly.

John Dehlin [02:56:15] Meaning say things like, I don't like that LGBT kids are killing themselves, Mormon LGBTQ kids are killing themselves, or we don't like the church's policies on same sex marriage. He goes on. Holland goes on to say BYU faculty and staff should take up their intellectual quote, muskets to defend the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, especially quote the doctrine of the family and marriage as the union of a man and a woman, the apostles said. But some chose to aim friendly fire.

John Dehlin [02:56:48] This is Holland. And from time to time, the church, its leaders, and some of our colleagues within the university community have taken such fire on this campus. And sometimes it isn't friendly, wounding students and the parents of students who are confused about what so much recent flag waving and parade holding on this issue means. So this is Jeffrey R. Holland condemning students who come out open, Mormon students who come out openly as gay, and condemning faculty or parents that speak up about LGBTQ youth suicides and who, who speak out publicly against the church's policies which are leading to the deaths by suicide. And, you know, he goes on to say that the church owns school, must have the will to stand alone if necess necessary.

John Dehlin [02:57:36] You know, and just like, what does it. What message? I can guarantee Elder Holland's comments are going to lead to more. To more suicidality. I mean, how could it not?

Jesse Funk [02:57:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:57:49] Jesus. What is it? What is a Mormon prophet seeing Revelator Apostle? What are they? What are we taught?

Jesse Funk [02:57:54] They are the ones. What's that statement? When the prophet speaks, it's the end

John Dehlin [02:57:59] of the debate or the thinking of been done.

Jesse Funk [02:58:01] Right.

John Dehlin [02:58:01] But they're. But they're special witnesses.

Carah Burrell [02:58:02] Of who?

Jesse Funk [02:58:03] Of God himself.

John Dehlin [02:58:04] Jesus Christ.

Jesse Funk [02:58:05] Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [02:58:05] Yep.

Jesse Funk [02:58:06] They're just.

John Dehlin [02:58:07] I, I didn't mean to derail us.

Jesse Funk [02:58:08] No. That's so incredibly relevant and so heartbreaking there. It's. It's almost like if they, if they were willing to take some ownership or apologize in any way, and I know it'll never happen, but like, if they did, we would move forward. So, like, in beautiful ways. I think at least there would be some, Some. Some hope and some progress, but it's almost like they're going backwards. They're going in the opposite direction.

John Dehlin [02:58:33] And I'm just, and I don't mean to be, like, inflammatory, but I'm thinking about the fact that you just talked about an LGBT youth ending their life with A handgun. And the ins. Insensitivity of Elder Holland calling members to pick up their muskets, to fight.

Carah Burrell [02:58:50] To fight fire with fire. Like, there's. Yeah, the metaphor is made like. Like it's. It's a battle for. For truth and righteousness in his mind. But these people are. These youth are fighting for their very life, for just the survival of their family and their church, accepting them for what I hope would be interpreted as a sexuality that God gave them that

John Dehlin [02:59:14] is beautiful, the church now acknowledges is not a choice.

Carah Burrell [02:59:16] That is not a choice.

John Dehlin [02:59:17] Since when did special witnesses of Christ, Christ, the Prince of Peace, call people to pick up their muskets?

Carah Burrell [02:59:23] Serious sword.

John Dehlin [02:59:25] What's that?

Carah Burrell [02:59:26] Jesus said to. You know.

John Dehlin [02:59:28] I know. That's where Jesus turns it on himself. No. And we're laughing, but like, yeah, pick up your muskets.

Carah Burrell [02:59:35] Really?

Jesse Funk [02:59:35] For real? Why? You couldn't have thought of any other way?

John Dehlin [02:59:39] How does that make you feel, thinking about the 10 youth?

Jesse Funk [02:59:42] You know, it just. There's just gonna be more. More. There's just so many kids that feel so alone right now. All they need is community and love and support. Like, it just doesn't seem that hard. Why is that hard? Why is it hard to just say you're gay? Cool, let's be friends, find love. Yeah. Why is that? Why is that a difficult thing?

John Dehlin [03:00:04] How about find committed monogamous love, if that's what you're into? Like, what's wrong with that message?

Jesse Funk [03:00:08] Yeah, I just. The whole idea of. Of I get to decide what's true for you. I get to decide how you should live your life. I know the truth. You need to listen to me speak for Jesus. Right? Like, I just. I don't get that. I don't get it at all. I grew up in it, and I really don't get it. And then people say, oh, we're not judgmental. We're so loving.

John Dehlin [03:00:32] We love gay people.

Jesse Funk [03:00:33] We're literally teaching people how to judge other people and ostracize other people and shame other people. We're literally teaching. Teaching it. He just taught it. He taught that. Because now a lot of people are going to say, well, Elder Holland said this, so I should say this.

John Dehlin [03:00:46] Yeah. The parents of these kids, Right?

Jesse Funk [03:00:49] Yeah.

Mixed-Faith Marriage and Coming Out

John Dehlin [03:00:51] So you said you started really having cracks in 2010, but I'm only aware of you kind of really losing your faith. How many years ago? Two or three years ago?

Jesse Funk [03:01:00] Well, it was really. When? It was probably about, like, three years ago. So I really felt like my marriage wasn't healthy and finally Was acknowledging that part. And then I thought, which means you

John Dehlin [03:01:14] went seven or eight years not totally believing, but trying to make it work.

Jesse Funk [03:01:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:19] What was that like?

Jesse Funk [03:01:22] Just knowing I was completely betraying myself and suffocating. Very, very suffocating. Because I felt like I was trying to do the thing, things that would show support for him and his belief system that I thought was beautiful. I would tell him all the time, I'm jealous. I'm so jealous of your testimony. It's beautiful. He, he loves it. If he was sitting right here, the way he speaks about it is truly beautiful. He loves it. It gives him peace, it gives him certainty, it gives him hope. Like that's beautiful. I don't feel any of that. I'm jealous of his testimony. So I was trying to do everything I could to support that because I thought it was beautiful. But to not receive support back, that's really, really difficult.

John Dehlin [03:02:11] One of the saddest things I see are these mixed faith marriages where the believing spouse views their non believing spouse who often is acting based on evidence and is acting out of integrity. But they're looked down upon as weak or a disappointment.

Jesse Funk [03:02:28] A lazy learner, a lazy.

John Dehlin [03:02:29] What's it like to live in a marriage? And this isn't at all really trying to criticize him, just structurally, what's it like to live in a marriage where your believing spouse views you as a, as a covenant breaker, as a failure, as a disappointment? What's that like?

Jesse Funk [03:02:52] You just. It kind of reaffirmed all the feelings I had when I was a kid. Just. There's just something really wrong with me. Why can't I figure this out? Why don't I get to have it? Am I not, Am I not good enough? Am I not faithful enough?

Jesse Funk [03:03:08] Like, what is wrong with me? Because a lot of people, not just him, but a lot of people would say if you just read your scriptures more, more, you'll learn to love them. If you go to the temple more, you'll learn to love it. If you wear the garments with a better attitude, you'll learn to love them.

Jesse Funk [03:03:25] And the whole time I'm thinking, I've been doing it, I've been doing all of those things, wanting to love it, wanting to learn to love it. And those are the exact things that have made me not love it.

Jesse Funk [03:03:39] Reading the scriptures only confused me and made me angry and bored me to death. Going to the temple just made me feel so scared and like I was part of a cult. Wearing the garments only made me feel like I was a disgusting woman. I Couldn't. Heaven forbid I want to feel sexy. I mean, just made me feel shame myself for sexuality. Something that's so natural and healthy.

John Dehlin [03:04:01] How about praying more?

Jesse Funk [03:04:03] Prayer I always had issues with. I never understood the idea of, like, you know, Timmy has cancer, let's pray to heal him. If he is healed, then the prayer was answered. If he isn't healed, that's just God's will. And so then what happens to Susie, who's not cured of cancer? Timmy gets healed, but Susie doesn't. That's not how Heavenly faith.

John Dehlin [03:04:27] Did Heavenly Father not love her as much?

Jesse Funk [03:04:29] Right, Right. So that always made me question God himself, not just the Mormon doctrine. And so I'm like, if I don't

John Dehlin [03:04:36] know, was prayer an answer for you to help you? Did it help you when you tried? No.

Jesse Funk [03:04:41] No. In fact, I read the scriptures three times, word for word, all the way through every day to try to do Moroni's promise at the end when it says, you know, if. If you. What is it? Help me out. If you ask with sincere intent, the answer will come. And one time, the third time, I read it all the way through. I went up into the mountains. I. I kneeled on my knees in gravel, and I said, I'm going to kneel here until I get an answer. If there's ever a time where God is going to bestow his grace upon me and tell me that this church is true and this book is true, it's going to be now, because I read the entire thing. I did it with the most sincere heart I could possibly muster.

John Dehlin [03:05:26] What happened?

Jesse Funk [03:05:26] I kneeled there for probably 45 minutes. I was so faithful. I did everything right.

John Dehlin [03:05:34] What happened?

Jesse Funk [03:05:36] Nothing. I just. All I was doing was trying to keep my mind focused. And I'm a good meditator, so I was. I was pretty focused, and I was just praying and I just said, God, like, I. I want to believe this. And I know that if I don't believe it, it's gonna end my marriage. I know that. So tell me, like, give me something. Show me a sign. Something. Send me a bird. Like, I want the warm thing that everyone talks about, the burning thing.

Carah Burrell [03:06:01] Or.

Jesse Funk [03:06:02] Or just a happy feeling. I'll take anything. Give me something. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. And if I had felt even a tiny little thing, I would have taken it. I would have taken it.

John Dehlin [03:06:14] You almost want to invent something.

Jesse Funk [03:06:16] Yes. Yes, that's it. I would have loved to be able to tell the story of feeling the spirit confirm its truth to me. But I can't lie. I Cannot lie. I am a person of integrity, and I love that about myself. I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna teach my children to lie.

Jesse Funk [03:06:38] So at that point, you say, you know what? I can continue to try to fight for this, or I can start living in integrity. What would that be like to go be a real advocate for LGBT kids? To go actually talk about what shame really does in this world and how it's so detrimental to these precious young people? I'd love to talk about those things. And I've never been able to talk about it because I wanted to be a good Mormon. So what would it look like if I could actually be honest and actually be authentic and live my best life? What would that look like? It's amazing. I'll answer that for you. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [03:07:19] And yet. And yet you were faced with this dilemma of staying authentic. Stay in a marriage where you kind of feel like you're dying and you're looked down upon as inferior, just structurally not even saying anything about your husband.

Carah Burrell [03:07:32] Right.

John Dehlin [03:07:33] And fake it and eat your feelings and stuff it, but then also not become your mom, not become your parents, not give your kids a broken family or live your truth. Be authentic, open up, but become your mom in a way. Become your parents in a way and, and have. Have that, that family unification dream. The eternal family kind of dissolved. That's hard. Hard.

Jesse Funk [03:08:06] Yeah. So awful.

John Dehlin [03:08:07] How'd you make that choice?

Jesse Funk [03:08:10] I. I finally realized that there really wouldn't be reciprocation. And, and he made that clear also. And he. If he was sitting here, he would say that.

John Dehlin [03:08:20] So you came out to him and said what?

Jesse Funk [03:08:22] I said, I, I, I just can't. I said, I can't do it anymore. I said I would be happy to.

John Dehlin [03:08:26] Can't do what?

Jesse Funk [03:08:27] I cannot be Mormon anymore.

John Dehlin [03:08:29] You sold. You told him that? Yeah, like three years ago.

Jesse Funk [03:08:31] Yeah. And I, I said, I will go to the first hour of church to sit with the children. Happy to do that. I'll do it with a great attitude. I'm happy to read scriptures at night like we have always done, but if there are things that I know are not healthy for our children to hear, I will. I'm going to start sharing my opinions on that, but I will participate. And, you know, so there. I mean, there were things I was trying to offer as kind of peace

John Dehlin [03:09:03] offerings, but you were willing to stay in and make it work.

Jesse Funk [03:09:07] Yeah, I wasn't gonna wear garments anymore, and I really wanted to drink coffee, and that's one of the best decisions I've ever made. So, I mean, those types of things. Like, I said, you know, here's what I'm willing to do, but here's what I'm not willing to do anymore. So I set very firm boundaries, and I'm so proud of myself for doing that, because was it. It was so hard, and I knew exactly how it would go. And he, he just said, nope. What did he say he.

John Dehlin [03:09:29] Or what?

Jesse Funk [03:09:29] He just, he said. He's like, if, if that's what you choose, then it. Our. Our relationship isn't going to work. So we need to figure out how to either just live together or just divorce. So we just tried to live together for three years.

John Dehlin [03:09:47] What's that like?

Jesse Funk [03:09:48] Horrible. That was really horrible. Yeah, it was awful. So. And why.

John Dehlin [03:09:53] Why was that horrible?

Jesse Funk [03:09:54] Because I was miserable. I, I am a very loving person, and I, I, I would have loved to just be in a relationship where we were a team and we were a partnership and we supported each other. I look at Alan and Katie Mount, they do the marriage on the Tightrope podcast, and, like, they're just the most beautiful example of two people that are so supportive and so loving to each other, even though they totally disagree on probably a lot of things, not just church, but they've been able to love each other, you know, so that's hard. That's really hard because I am a marriage person.

Jesse Funk [03:10:35] I want to get married again. I want to be in a relationship. I'm. I'm a team player. I'm a. I want a partner. And so to not have. That was just ripped me up more like 16. But, yeah, three years for sure. But just. But at the end of the day, and I want to be very fair,

Carah Burrell [03:10:54] you know, this is.

Jesse Funk [03:10:55] It's obviously hard to say, but I want to make sure my kids are proud of this interview if they ever hear it. And if their dad was here, he would. He would say the church is everything. And he does say the phrase Jesus before family. He told me that many times. He tells our children that still. So to him, it's everything. It's everything. And I respect that. That's his belief system. Everyone gets to have their truth. He believes that that is everything. He believes that that's an objective truth. I can't argue with that. I don't want to argue with that. Beautiful. Have it, enjoy it. But to destroy a family over it is just. It's just the worst.

John Dehlin [03:11:36] When the church teaches families are the number one. One thing.

Jesse Funk [03:11:39] Yeah. It's just so awful. And then for my Kids. To have to go through it is just so awful. And I know for sure, for sure, if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was not a part of my marriage, we would still be married. So the church can destroy families.

Carah Burrell [03:12:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:20] I'm so sorry. And you tried so hard, right. For so long.

Jesse Funk [03:12:24] At the end of the day, I will always know. I. I did everything I could possibly do and then some. You know what? I'm just gonna own that. I did everything I could do and then some. So.

John Dehlin [03:12:37] I've heard you say it. One of the. The first time I ever met you, you actually said I was a wonderful wife.

Jesse Funk [03:12:42] I was, damn it.

John Dehlin [03:12:45] It's rare to have a kind of a. Someone who's raised as a Mormon woman just own something great that she did. So I'm like, whoa, she's really. She. But I believed you.

Jesse Funk [03:12:55] Thank you. And I promise it's not like coming from an egotistical place. It's a. It's a freedom statement. It's a. It's a. I have shamed myself so hard for so long that I'm so tired of it. I'm so tired of putting myself down and always saying, you know, God gets the credit. And like. Like, no. There are so many times I. I did the work. I did extremely difficult things, and I'm. I'm just so tired of the shame. And I. And I talked to so many women. Women who are experiencing those same feelings, and I just think we have got to stop shaming ourselves. So I'm. I'm owning that. I'm totally owning that. And I'm enjoying the parts about divorce that can be good. And I want to say that out loud because. My sweet boyfriend.

John Dehlin [03:13:45] Both are bad decisions. Both are. Both are hard, right?

Jesse Funk [03:13:48] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Staying suffocated and invisible and disrespected and unsupported and no friendship and, like, all these things. That's hard. Leaving a toxic religion and a very unhealthy marriage.

John Dehlin [03:13:58] Also getting divorced.

Jesse Funk [03:14:00] Yeah. So hard. But this one has a light at the end of the tunnel. This one has hope. This one has freedom. This one includes living in integrity. So it's worth it. It's so worth it. And I'm not encouraging anyone to get divorced. Good grief. I'm not encouraging that. I'm just saying if you have to weigh the options, there is only one thing that leads to any kind of real house. Happiness.

John Dehlin [03:14:21] And if it's one or the other.

Jesse Funk [03:14:23] Yeah. And I'm dating a really, really sweet man who is helping me Heal. And he has a similar story of leaving. And he has taught me there's good things about divorce. And so I'm. I'm trying to own that. I'm trying to step into that and allow myself to think that. That it's not the worst thing ever. Like, I grew up thinking that I'm just gonna ruin my children and I'm. And my poor babies are going through this horrible thing. I'm gonna reframe it and I'm gonna. And down sit. Say, they're going to learn about resilience. They're going to learn about what a healthy relationship is.

Jesse Funk [03:14:55] They're going to learn about boundary setting. They're going to learn about consent. They're going to learn about self respect by my example. And I have to live that. I have to show them that instead of what I showed them for 16 years. There's no other way to show them than by doing it. So, yeah, I'm trying to. I'm trying to live the things that I know I need. Needed all this time that I've denied myself and, and I need my. My own healing so that I can be happy but also be the mother that I want to be and hopefully a future partner I want to be.

John Dehlin [03:15:36] How did this all not break you? How did you survive it? I think,

Jesse Funk [03:15:52] Honestly, I think it's how much I really love people. I became a therapist because I just. I think humans are amazing. I think resilience is amazing. Like, I love studying resilience. I. I love reading books about resilience. Resilient heroes from history.

Resilience, Divorce, and Finding New Love

John Dehlin [03:16:10] Resilience. That helped you when you were having a hard time. Think about, think about other women or men going through this right now who just feel like, I don't even know if I want to continue.

Carah Burrell [03:16:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:21] I have a dear friend who died recently just a few weeks ago. Like a professional football player by world standards, super successful. It had a very successful financial career. Career was in a mixed, mixed faith marriage. And you know, there's a lot that goes into someone's death, but I know that there were religious components to, to that friend's death.

Carah Burrell [03:16:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:49] And I'm sure he just felt desperate and alone and, and like there was no way out. He felt trapped.

Jesse Funk [03:16:58] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:17:00] Can you relate to those feelings 100%.

Jesse Funk [03:17:03] Yeah. The idea, like, once I really decided to get divorced, I had to force myself to think, what are the good things that could come from it? I had to go there because I was so devastated and just so sad about it and so scared of how it would affect my kids and all those things. But I had to force myself to think what good could come of it. And I was thinking that gift of resilience of like, what is it? Your, your ability to move forward after going through really hard things. And moving forward means hope and it means being able to have a fresh start. You get to rewrite your story and, and live a life that you are more in control of. That's a, that's so exciting. That's a good thing. It comes, comes at a super high price, but it's a really good thing.

John Dehlin [03:17:58] So how about finding healthy love?

Jesse Funk [03:18:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:01] Or at least the hope of finding healthy love.

Jesse Funk [03:18:04] Exactly. Yeah. There was kind of a point where for a long time, I mean, my ex husband, this is a fact, it's not to, to disparage him, but we had talked about divorce for a solid eight years. You know, that was on the table for a solid eight years. And, and I looked for my first divorce lawyer about a year in. It wasn't, it wasn't healthy ever, but about eight years. It was, you know, really on the table.

Jesse Funk [03:18:30] And, and I just, I kept saying to him, I would love you to, to be able to have someone who loves the church like you do. I would love that for you. And I sincerely meant that. And I didn't acknowledge the possibility. For me, I didn't even think about it. Then there was one night.

Jesse Funk [03:18:53] I woke up in the middle of the night. I'd had a dream. And I have super vivid dreams. So I had this dream that I had met someone and I woke up and this was 3am in the morning. And I sat up in bed and I was like, is that even an option? Could I date again? Could I possibly have a second chance at this? And that was at least three years of talking about divorce. I hadn't even thought of it. I hadn't even allowed myself to think that I could maybe have a healthy relationship and have a second chance at any kind of love.

Jesse Funk [03:19:29] I didn't even think about was wild to me. And then, and now I think about that and I'm like, I was that in it that I didn't. And I. And I didn't value myself enough that much that I didn't even let myself think that I could do that. That's so sad. So now I'm. I'm all about it. I'm about it.

John Dehlin [03:19:50] Meaning what?

Jesse Funk [03:19:52] Women who get divorced, if, if that is something that you go through, let yourself enjoy it, let yourself date, go have fun. It's okay. It's a beautiful thing.

John Dehlin [03:20:06] I've heard it's can be really hard

Jesse Funk [03:20:08] to date, for sure. For sure. But allow yourself to try. You are worthy of a second chance at love.

Carah Burrell [03:20:21] Sounds like you're stepping into just everything that you described throughout your childhood and performing and in this marriage. Just finally stepping into authenticity and being able to. To recognize your. Your value that so much of your life was spent serving other people.

Jesse Funk [03:20:39] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:20:40] Being a mother is hard work. Being a performer is hard work. And that you're allowing yourself to finally enjoy something that the church, the world would tell you that is the worst thing that you'll ever go through. Not to say that it isn't, but that there is some beautiful parts on the other side.

John Dehlin [03:20:59] Yes.

Jesse Funk [03:21:00] Yes. If it has to happen, find those beautiful things. Create those beautiful things. It's the only way you'll heal a. But it's also the only road that'll lead to any kind of happiness.

Carah Burrell [03:21:11] Yeah. Like you were saying, a light at the end of the tunnel.

Jesse Funk [03:21:13] Right?

John Dehlin [03:21:14] The light will come. Wait a minute.

Carah Burrell [03:21:16] Are we gonna break into song?

Jesse Funk [03:21:18] I totally. I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:20] Did that song gain a new meaning for you at all?

Jesse Funk [03:21:23] Hold on. The light will come.

John Dehlin [03:21:24] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [03:21:24] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:21:25] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [03:21:25] That's a great song. I should have prepared it. I did not prepare it. I totally would sing it right now because it is. That's a great song and so appropriate for ex Mormon.

Live Music and Reflecting on Beloved Songs

John Dehlin [03:21:33] Is there a part of it that you would sing to the ex Mormon community?

Jesse Funk [03:21:36] Oh, I just. I wish you could do.

John Dehlin [03:21:38] You can do monologue. What is it? Without accompaniment?

Jesse Funk [03:21:41] You can do Acapulco. Yeah. Acapella.

John Dehlin [03:21:46] But I mean, is that a song that you talked. I think you mentioned to me that some of these songs you used to love as a Mormon have taken on a new meaning.

Jesse Funk [03:21:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:21:54] Now, is that true?

Jesse Funk [03:21:55] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because there's so many that have such beautiful messages in them. And if you just see it from a different lens, from a post Mormon lens, you're like, whoa, that's, like, really beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:22:07] So, like, the light will come. What parts of that.

Jesse Funk [03:22:10] Like, the. Well, the lyrics are. The message of this moment is so clear and as certain as the rising of the sun. When your world is filled with darkness, doubt, and fear. Just hold on, hold on. The light will come. I love that. Like, I'm so dedicated to truth now. Like, I. I got my first tattoo. It's the word truth on my hip. That's how much I love that word. It means so much to me now I'm like this. Like, I'm just so Focused on what is real truth. And I love being able to teach subjective versus objective truth. Truths like that idea would have helped me so much throughout my life. And so being able to hold on to some hope, but also acknowledging what you know is for certain for you, that's a beautiful journey. I like that.

Carah Burrell [03:22:56] And I think it was beautiful. You said maybe five minutes ago about how recognizing so much of what you did, you're like, I did that, Damn it. Like, I worked hard. Like, I'm gonna take some ownership for that. And I really reinterpreted songs like that, where it's like, I used to give this gratitude to my creator. And now have you reframed things in that same attitude where you're like, okay, the light will come because I'm gonna get to work.

Jesse Funk [03:23:19] Yes.

Carah Burrell [03:23:19] I'm not gonna. There's. There is a certain level of putting your time and your effort in. You get to own the fruits of it.

Jesse Funk [03:23:28] Yes.

Carah Burrell [03:23:29] And that you did it wrong.

John Dehlin [03:23:31] Is that bad?

Jesse Funk [03:23:32] Exactly. That's my question. Like, I love the idea of a God. I'm agnostic. I have no idea if there's a God. I love the idea of one that's beautiful. And I love the idea that, like, he loves me. He wants to, you know, help me through my life. Great. But he's not here, like, with me every day, like, you know, motivating me to get stuff done and to organize a camp for kids. I'm doing that. I'm doing that, like.

Carah Burrell [03:23:56] Okay.

Jesse Funk [03:23:57] And I think it's okay to acknowledge it with. Without being selfish, like, an egotistical. Like, I'm. I know my heart is in the right place. I just think it's important for especially women to be able to say, we are amazing. I think that's okay to say. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:18] And I think it's okay to sing. So why don't we set up now? Let's. Let's do the first song. Well, the. The.

Carah Burrell [03:24:24] It's on.

John Dehlin [03:24:25] It's. Are we doing Defying Gravity first?

Jesse Funk [03:24:28] Do you want to do that one? Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:24:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:24:29] I think that's. This is a perfect place to do Defying Gravity. So pull up to the. We're going to do a song now, everybody. Jessica's. Jesse's going to. Yeah. She's got a song she's going to play. And in this one, you're not. You're not playing the piano. You're. You're being accompanied. Right. And then Carah's going to do her microphone wizardry, and Jesse is going to perform for you. Defying Gravity from the musical Wicked. And she also has one more song she's going to perform after that as well.

Carah Burrell [03:25:02] Okay, everyone, grab your Kleenexes. Don't be running out during the song to go grab them. Warning you.

Jesse Funk [03:25:08] I'm super nervous because I've been crying.

John Dehlin [03:25:10] You can pull the microphone back. Whatever you want to do. Oh. Oh, yeah, it's got it. Or you can pull forward if you want to. Pull your chair forward.

Carah Burrell [03:25:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:25:16] However you're most comfortable. And I'm gonna fix the camera.

Jesse Funk [03:25:21] Okay, you ready?

John Dehlin [03:25:22] Pull it back a tiny bit.

Jesse Funk [03:25:24] Pull back.

Carah Burrell [03:25:24] What?

John Dehlin [03:25:25] And you can mute mine in your mic if you want.

Carah Burrell [03:25:28] Okay.

Jesse Funk [03:25:29] You ready, boss? Something is not the same I'm through with playing by the rules of someone else's game Too late for second guessing Too late to go back to sleep it's time to trust my instincts Close, Close my eyes and leave a time to try Defying gravity. I think I'll try Defying gravity and you can't hold me down. Do you like this song, John?

John Dehlin [03:26:31] She sends some grandeur.

Jesse Funk [03:26:33] Accepting limits. Cause someone says they're so. Some things I cannot change Until I try I'll never know. Too long I've been afraid of losing love I guess I lost. Well, if that's love it comes at much too high a cost.

Jesse Funk [03:26:56] I'd sooner boast Defying gravity. Kiss me goodbye I'm defying gravity and they won't pull me down Unl. Oh, shoot. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Here we go. Unlimited Together we're unlimited Limited Together we'll be the greatest team there's ever been.

Jesse Funk [03:27:31] I know dreams are truly crazy and sure the vision's hazy But I swear someday I'll be flying so high Defying gravity Kiss me goodbye I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down. Carah's dancing over here. I'm loving it.

Jesse Funk [03:28:04] So if you care to find me look to the western sky as someone told me lately Everyone deserves a chance to fly and if I am flying slow at least I'm flying free to those who drown me Take a message

John Dehlin [03:28:26] back from me Tell the mind Defying

Jesse Funk [03:28:33] gravity I'm flying high Defying gravity. And soon I'll match them in renown and nobody in all of ours no wizard that there is or was Is ever gonna bring me

Carah Burrell [03:28:59] down.

Jesse Funk [03:29:07] Me down. Oh, dear.

John Dehlin [03:29:25] Oh, my goodness.

Jesse Funk [03:29:26] That's a hard song to sing after you're crying. Good grief, Carah.

John Dehlin [03:29:31] What'd you think?

Carah Burrell [03:29:32] Come back when. And I'm not so speechless.

John Dehlin [03:29:35] Oh, my gosh. That is like that Was so beautiful. And I. You know, I love the musical Wicked. And some of my lowest points of my faith crisis. I was really into that musical.

Jesse Funk [03:29:45] Oh, nice.

John Dehlin [03:29:46] Isn't it perfect?

Jesse Funk [03:29:47] It's like, perfect for our journeys. The words are so great.

John Dehlin [03:29:50] And a part of the dark, bittersweet part of that song is at that moment where she says, and nobody, you know, whoever was no wizard that there is or was, is ever going to bring me down. And what does the chorus sing? Look at her, she's wicked. Right. Like all as she's becoming empowered.

Jesse Funk [03:30:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:30:11] The village says, look at her, she's wicked. Like, female empowerment is actually evil. And I don't mean to darken buzzkill, but, like, that's what. When a woman gets empowered, then the community says that that's wicked.

Jesse Funk [03:30:29] Yep, Exactly. Exactly. And I. That's why I was like, that's like the perfect song. I had that on repeat so much and just so perfect for this journey. You know, I love the part where it says, I'm through accepting limits because someone says they're so. Some things I cannot change, but until I try, I'll never know. Like, those are so good. I just love. I love powerful songs with great lyrics.

John Dehlin [03:30:53] Do you know the whole musical?

Jesse Funk [03:30:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:30:55] Do you. Do you remember the. Do you remember the. The song. Couldn't be happier? True, dear. Couldn't be happier. Did you connect with. With Glinda and her in that relationship with Fiyero where it was not necessarily the. The most connected relationship, but she had an image to convey.

Jesse Funk [03:31:20] Right, right.

John Dehlin [03:31:21] And then she says, and then. And if that joy, that thrill doesn't thrill like you think it will still with this perfect finale, the cheers and the valley. Who. Who wouldn't be happier?

Jesse Funk [03:31:33] Right?

John Dehlin [03:31:34] She's convincing herself. So I couldn't be happier, she says, because happy is what happens when all your dreams come true. And then she says, isn't it. Isn't it like she's trying to convince herself happy is what happens when your dreams come true.

Jesse Funk [03:31:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:53] But her dreams weren't coming true, right?

Jesse Funk [03:31:55] Nope.

John Dehlin [03:31:55] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [03:31:56] Yeah. That game that we play to try to please other people and to try to maintain status quo and fit in it, it can lead to very real suffocation. So we have to put.

John Dehlin [03:32:12] Be careful and it continue. Okay. Carah, what are you thinking now?

Carah Burrell [03:32:15] Nothing. Are we going to sing another song? I just don't know if we want to adjust anything maybe.

John Dehlin [03:32:19] But I. Let me. Just one more thing because back. Back to. Isn't she Wicked? Like, there's that. There's that Part of. Of the Wicked musical where the press core, you know, Madame Morrible gets involved and she needs to come up with the spin because. Because Alphabet, who becomes, in the original wizard of Oz, the Wicked Witch, really, she's just becoming aware of a fraud and that the wizard, you know, is behind the curtain and everything that she had been taught is not true. And she develops sympathy for the monkeys or, you know, which are, you know, a perfect metaphor for LGBTQ youth or for people who lose their faith or for feminists or for intellectuals. Pick any marginalized.

Jesse Funk [03:33:07] Anyone that doesn't fit in the box.

John Dehlin [03:33:09] When. When Elphaba gets her power and everybody realizes that she was so close to the wizard, but then she left and doesn't believe it anymore, then the rumors start swirling. Right. I heard she has an extra eye that always remains awake. I heard she, you know, turns into a snake. You know, like, I hear her soul is so unclean, pure water can melt her. Right. Like. Like all the community rumors that swirl around her. That's. I mean, you have to realize that as you come on Mormon Stories podcast, as you come out living your authentic life, that that's a metaphor for what orthodox believing Mormons are likely to do to you.

Jesse Funk [03:33:53] Absolutely. Yep. I've thought a lot about that, and I thought, is it. Is that something that would make or break me or, you know, like, my decision to come out, like, is that really so heavy that I shouldn't do it? And I've. I've really thought about it, because it's a big deal. You don't want to be ostracized by your community. But at the end of the day, I just thought, if I fail Katie and these other kids that I've known personally, if I fail them, I won't be able to live with myself. That's what it comes down to. And setting an example for my own children.

Jesse Funk [03:34:24] Even if my kids do what I did to my mother and they shame me and ostracize me, which they won't, because they're amazing, but even if they did, at the end of the day, they would know that I was someone that lived in integrity. I was honest. Because think about it. What could possibly be the other motivator? What is the motivation for anyone to completely come out about the church when you know you're going to be ostracized? You know you're going to be shamed, you know you're going to be disconnected from family and friends and loved ones? What is the motivator? Is it really just that we Want to all drink alcohol and get tattoos?

Jesse Funk [03:34:56] No, no. Like you are coming from such a deep place of integrity that you're willing to risk all of that. It. It. Only. It's only about integrity.

Carah Burrell [03:35:09] Yeah. And I just want to add to that. I. I love Mormons. We don't do this because we don't. I love the tribe that I'm from. I really do. And I do believe that Mormons are an elect people. No, I believe Mormons are really, really good people and they want to do what's right. And when. When they're confronted with the empathy versus orthodoxy paradox that Jesse and I love to talk about, it's. I do believe that Mormons, deep down, they. They have a good heart.

Jesse Funk [03:35:33] Absolutely.

Carah Burrell [03:35:33] Not even deep down, I believe Mormons have a good heart. I really, really do. And so everything that we're talking about is quite honestly about a church that sharpened a sword towards authenticity, towards righteousness, towards truth. That we stand up for it when push comes to shove. And sometimes that means leaving the place that sharpened that sword, and sometimes it means using it against them, but it's only for the greater good, for the people that we care about that are in the system.

Jesse Funk [03:35:58] Beautifully said. That's so important, because I. I feel the exact same way. Like, I. My intention on coming on here today is honestly that maybe some people who are in the church that I deeply, deeply care about might feel empowered, might feel educated, might feel like they want to do better. Because I believe and have experienced many people in the church who do have such good hearts, who are coming from a place of empathy, who just get a little bit of education, especially around the LGBT issue, and they get better. They instantly get better. They stop saying certain things, or they start really seeing a human being as a human being.

Jesse Funk [03:36:36] They talk to people who are gay and try to understand it, but better from. From that angle. Yeah. So many good things when we, yeah. Try to come from a very loving place. So I love that you said that. That's my intention too.

John Dehlin [03:36:49] So beautiful. So there are. There. It is really hard for orthodox believing Mormons to just go, oh, okay. She really tried. She really did all the things. She served, she was faithful, she read the scriptures, she prayed, and she just never got the answer. And then she learned all this stuff about the church to the point where she realized that for her, it wasn't true anymore. So she left.

John Dehlin [03:37:22] It's almost never that what they're going to do, if they even listen to this, which most won't, but the ones who do, they're usually going to try and find it's like, oh, she never had a testimony of being with. She set up it herself. She never got the witness or she really didn't try hard. You know, she made those mistakes as a kid and she never was really faithful or she got offended, you know, her husband did something, or something happened in church, she just got offended. Or, oh, she got a tattoo, look. Oh, did she drink a beer? Like she just wanted to sin.

Jesse Funk [03:37:53] Right.

Key Reasons for Leaving Mormonism

John Dehlin [03:37:54] If, if any of your family or friends want to levy some of those, those unfortunately stereotypical and somewhat offensive stereotypes about people who leave the church, is there, is there anything you would want to say? Not that you have to explain or defend yourself?

Jesse Funk [03:38:13] Yeah, no, I totally get it. I, I feel very confident that anyone who really knows me, has spent any real time with me would know. They would know that I, I am not a lazy learner. I study. I put effort into being thoughtful and intentional.

Jesse Funk [03:38:37] And I also feel very confident that I've given enough evidence in my actions, not just my words, that I'm coming from an honest place and as loving of a place as humanly possible. I know that I'm so far from perfect, but. But I've tried so hard to be the best friend I can be, the best ally I can be.

Jesse Funk [03:39:02] Yeah, I feel really strongly. So if I had like a really close friend or a family member come to me and say anything like that, I would say, I'm pretty sure you know me better than that. And that, like, you've seen, you've seen some evidence. Yeah, I think that's probably what I'd say.

John Dehlin [03:39:20] And I know, like, I, I imagine that maybe your dad, for example, or some other family members could just say to you, this is my. I love this church. I couldn't you have just like, if you're gonna lose your faith, just kind of like, keep it to yourself. Live whatever life you want to live. But why do you have to go publicly? Like, they would say, you're, you're speaking against something that I love. You're attacking what I love. Why did you know, if a loving family member says, why did you have to go on the attack in the offensive, be anti Mormon? Sometimes they'll say that, why did you have to go on the anti Mormon tirade? Why couldn't you have just had your own private shift and not made it a public spectacle? They might say, what would you say to that?

Jesse Funk [03:40:09] Some people in my family have said that exact thing, that I'm being anti Mormon now. I would just show them a Picture of Katie, this beautiful 16 year old girl. I have a 16 year old daughter, so she was only 16 and she was just beautiful. Active in her ward her entire life. A really good Mormon. She was strong, she was fun. She was part of a few different clubs at school.

Jesse Funk [03:40:37] Just an amazing human being being shot herself in the head. So I would ask my dad, I would ask my family members, I would ask a best friend, anyone that wanted to talk about that. I would say, what would you do? Would you be quiet?

Jesse Funk [03:40:56] Because if you, if you decided to be silent after something like that happened to someone you knew, I would not respect you. I wouldn't respect myself if I stayed silent about it. I literally would hate myself. If, you know, the end of my life, I would say, you coward.

John Dehlin [03:41:18] So it's just a matter of integrity for you.

Jesse Funk [03:41:21] I feel like it's the most beautiful privilege now, like a obligation. I have to stand up for those kids that now don't have a voice anymore. So. So, yeah, I feel a deep sense of responsibility and I am excited about it and grateful for it and I will step into it.

John Dehlin [03:41:42] And ironically. Where did we learn? To do what is right? Let the consequence follow where did we learn? I'll walk with you I'll talk with you that's how I'll show my love for you if you don't walk like some people do Some people walk away from you But I won't where did we learn? Dare to do right Dare to be true There is a work that no other can do and where did we learn? Oh, say what is truth is the first gem and where do we learn? As I have loved you love one another. Where do we learn those things?

Jesse Funk [03:42:10] The Church taught us very well. The Church also taught us to be missionaries and to speak up and to use our voices for, for the, the cause of truth.

John Dehlin [03:42:22] Oops.

Jesse Funk [03:42:23] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:42:24] When people ask, why are ex Mormons so vocal? Read Reddit, tick tock. It's because they sharpened the sword so nicely, like, as missionaries.

John Dehlin [03:42:34] Right?

Carah Burrell [03:42:34] Missionaries. Every member a missionary. So it's a pursuit of truth.

John Dehlin [03:42:38] We come by. We come by it honestly. Everybody.

Jesse Funk [03:42:41] That's right.

John Dehlin [03:42:42] We really do.

Carah Burrell [03:42:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:46] So there's there's always kind of a segment in these interviews where people went through a faith crisis where we want you. For those who are just like, what are you talking about? CES letter. What's. I've never listened to Mormon stories. I just love just Jesse Funk and, And this isn't to like, sow seeds of doubt. It's really not. But one of the. One of the guiding principles of Mormon stories these days is informed consent. People deserve to know what they're a member of.

Jesse Funk [03:43:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:43:13] If they're going to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, they should know about his life. If they're going to believe the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham or the Word of God, they should know the issues with those books if they're going to. So would you be comfortable? Take as long as you want going through the list of items that you learned or discovered or concluded that make up your.

John Dehlin [03:43:37] That factor into your ultimate conclusion that the church either isn't what you were taught or what you thought or what it claims to be. And explain it through song. Yeah, explain it, you know. No, explain it with as much detail for those who have no idea what you're talking about. So don't just assume Book of Abraham thing or the polygamy thing or the poly. Explain it. Take 10 minutes to teach the listener what you've learned or what you've concluded. If you don't mind.

Jesse Funk [03:44:13] Yeah, I've got a whole list.

John Dehlin [03:44:14] And it's okay if you read from it or like use a reference. That's better.

Jesse Funk [03:44:18] Okay. All right. We call these shelf breakers. So we put a lot of things in on the shelf. We try to put it away and say, you know, those things will be explained later and when we get to heaven, we'll understand everything. So we put them on a shelf. But then your shelf breaks. So here's mine. Racism.

Jesse Funk [03:44:38] The church didn't allow black people to have the priesthood until 1978, which was not that long ago. Ago. Sexism. You cannot have a calling. You can't teach a lesson. You can't really do any activity in the church unless a man asks you to do it or invites you to do it. Lack of critical thinking. We do not celebrate questioning. We do not celebrate people having doubts. We have. We have shaming phrases for those things. We say doubt your doubts and that's unacceptable. We need to encourage critical thinking. Thinking.

Jesse Funk [03:45:13] The scriptures themselves made me more sad, more confused. So a lot of people say that it brings happiness, it brings comfort, it brings joy. And I just never felt those emotions ever. I always even just reading about like the battles and you know, that Nephi and his family leaving Jerusalem. Like I just.

John Dehlin [03:45:34] It always curse and the dark skinned for wickedness.

Jesse Funk [03:45:39] Yes. I just never resonated with the stories. Even the stories. Just like, even if you were thinking of. The Book of Mormon is just like a children's book. It's just A story cutting off Laban's head. Exactly. I never resonated with the stories themselves, let alone them being true stories, because they're not true. Plan of happiness is only if you're perfect. So it is conditioned. You have to pay to get into heaven. If you don't pay a 10% tithing, you don't get a temple recommend, which means you can't go to the temple, which means you can't be sealed or. Or get to the highest level of heaven. So you do have to pay to get into heaven.

John Dehlin [03:46:16] What's wrong with that?

Carah Burrell [03:46:17] What?

John Dehlin [03:46:17] What's wrong with that? No,

Jesse Funk [03:46:21] a loving God doesn't care about money. I don't believe that a loving God would even care at all about money. And about your ability to pay. Pay money. I think he cares about us being happy. And if we're so stressed out that we're not even going to make our mortgage payment, we have to pay our tithing. Like, I just, I don't believe in a God that would design a system like that. Apostles are millionaires. That's a fact. And that's unacceptable in my mind. Especially when they don't want anyone to know that they don't. That's not like public. That should be very transparent parent.

John Dehlin [03:46:56] You know, they're literally all millionaires.

Jesse Funk [03:46:58] Yep. Yep. And. And a lot of people truly believe they're not even paid. That's just comes totally not true.

John Dehlin [03:47:05] Not to mention six figures, two, $300,000 a year.

Jesse Funk [03:47:07] Yeah. Not to mention all their book deals.

Carah Burrell [03:47:09] And I was gonna say book deals that are sold at Deseret Book. That put mom and pop bookstores out of.

Jesse Funk [03:47:15] Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Very wrong. Extravagant temples that are. That keep us busy serving dead people when there's living people that need us right now. Just a little more urgency. But I. I really struggle with temples and that they just keep us so busy. Like we're just always like, I've got to get to the temple. When we need to be with our families, we need to be present in our lives. We don't need to be so busy.

John Dehlin [03:47:35] Plus there's people starving. There's illiteracy, there's poverty, there's a lack of water. There are all sorts of ways that elderly people, you know, middle aged people, whatever, could be doing what Christ taught and blessing the poor and the needy and the sick and the afflicted. Afflicted and people with diseases and yeah, whatever it is. Right. Instead of like doing rituals for people who died that may or may not even end up accepting the rituals.

Jesse Funk [03:48:04] Right, exactly.

Carah Burrell [03:48:05] Did that plan too when you were in Ghana as well, that you, you kind of know what's going on inside These temples are for people on the other end of the life.

Jesse Funk [03:48:13] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:48:14] That. On the other side, when there's people. Right here, right here, right now, right now.

John Dehlin [03:48:18] There's massive homelessness here in Salt Lake City.

Jesse Funk [03:48:21] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:48:22] You can't walk, you can't go down the street.

Jesse Funk [03:48:23] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:48:24] Without seeing homeless people.

Jesse Funk [03:48:25] Yeah. In, in Ghana I saw a child eating dirt because he literally had nothing else to eat. This little probably four year old child. And it was really close to the temple where we have hundred million dollar chandeliers in there. I don't get that. That's wrong on so many levels. I have a good friend who actually, who, who's. I think it's her brother who buys furniture for temples and they spend a hundred thousand dollars on a vase. One vase. I mean the extravagance of it is unacceptable in my mind. Masonry in temples we have like handshakes that we do and different symbols and, and actions that we do inside the temple that is cut and paste from mason masonry. And I, I think people need to know that. People need to be aware of that. And Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith didn't create it.

John Dehlin [03:49:18] It's kind of plagiarized.

Jesse Funk [03:49:19] Yes. The temple ceremony, polygamy and polyandry. A lot of people think that polygamy was only a thing just because we wanted to take care of widows or we wanted to, you know, just help. Help women. That, that's not it. And.

John Dehlin [03:49:35] Or the only brigade did it.

Jesse Funk [03:49:36] Right? Yep, Nope, nope. Everyone did. And polyandry. He, Joseph Smith sent men on how

John Dehlin [03:49:44] many wives Joseph have, based on your studies?

Jesse Funk [03:49:47] I've heard up to 50. I said that's what I've kind of studied on.

John Dehlin [03:49:51] Between 30 and 40 for sure.

Jesse Funk [03:49:52] Okay. Yeah, yeah. But marrying other men's wives. So there was also polyandry who did that? Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [03:50:00] Right.

Jesse Funk [03:50:00] He married other men's wives. He married mother, daughter sets. He married sister pairs. Yeah, sister pairs. And then underage girls.

John Dehlin [03:50:10] Or as young as two. As young as 14.

Jesse Funk [03:50:12] Yeah, 14 years old. And he.

Carah Burrell [03:50:16] Sorry, what's your response to when people will, you know the apologist rhetoric around. Well, we don't know what, what sexual relations happened, what didn't. Who are we to judge if God commands something, therefore it's right. Those are Joseph Smith's own words, I think from the happiness letter. A lot of Mormons here know about those things, but they are fine rationalizing it.

John Dehlin [03:50:36] God says it.

Carah Burrell [03:50:37] It's fine. Why was, why was it such a shelf breaker for you?

Jesse Funk [03:50:40] For me? Because we know that he hid it from Emma. So if he's hiding it from his own wife, of course he's going to hide it to. From everyone else, from the whole group. So I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:50:53] Also, he was practicing it before he had even gotten the ceiling power with Fanny the Alger. And he, he was practicing it before the, the, the DNC 132 revelation. So he's practicing it before there's ever a revelation.

Jesse Funk [03:51:06] Right.

John Dehlin [03:51:07] Or ceiling power.

Jesse Funk [03:51:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:09] That makes no sense.

Jesse Funk [03:51:10] Right. And none of this is taught. None of this is taught. You have to dig. You got to understand. Yeah. You have to look for this stuff. Yeah. So I, I really. It bothers me so much that this isn't just transparent. We have pictures in, in our churches of Joseph Smith sitting at a table with golden plates. He never used them.

John Dehlin [03:51:28] Okay, That's a different issue.

Jesse Funk [03:51:30] Right.

John Dehlin [03:51:31] Yeah. There's. Just to go back. There's no photo of Joseph with his 30 or 40 wives. I mean, we've got a photo of the temple with like all the prophets that have Mormon prophets that have ever lived. Why can't we have an artist's rendition of Joseph with his 40 wives? But not only that, there's never been a lesson ever in the history of Mormon curriculum, ever. It's 20, 21. There's been Mormon curriculum since 18. Whatever. 50, 40. Never once has a plural wife of Joseph Smith ever been mentioned in any of the curriculum ever to anyone. So that's massively deceptive.

Jesse Funk [03:52:05] It is. It is absolutely a deception. It's a lie. It's hiding. It's omitting truths, though. You can't. I'm. Yeah. There's always an argument for sure. But we have so much evidence.

John Dehlin [03:52:17] But that we can get to age 20, 30, 40 or 50 in heaven as orthodox believing Mormons who served missions married in the temple. Whatever. And we were never told this.

Jesse Funk [03:52:26] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:52:27] Exactly. Okay, now do stone in the hat and translation as a separate thing.

Jesse Funk [03:52:31] Yeah. So like the idea of the rock and the hat where he's looking inside of a hat using a stone that we know was used in his prison previous treasure digging expeditions. He used the same stone and no treasure was ever found. And then the gold plates were. He never used them. So what was the point of Moroni carrying around these heavy, heavy plates if they were not even going to be used and he was only going to use a stone and a hat to translate. I don't understand why the translation because

John Dehlin [03:53:02] the witnesses admit now that the golden plates weren't in the room when he was translating. They were. Were in the forest. So why would he have the plates in a forest? Have his head in a hat with a stone in it?

Jesse Funk [03:53:15] Right.

John Dehlin [03:53:15] Why do they even make the plates? Let alone die for it, let alone pass them along if he's not ever going to use them? And then again, why weren't we ever told this? Where's the artist rendition?

Jesse Funk [03:53:26] Yeah, why don't we have pictures in churches of his head in a hat?

John Dehlin [03:53:30] Which is.

Carah Burrell [03:53:31] Right.

Jesse Funk [03:53:31] Like, it would be weird. It would be weird to see that people would be like, okay, that's like a little weird, I guess. But. But it's honest. I would rather have a weird painting than a dishonest painting. He didn't sit at. With gold plates. I mean, it's just. All of that is so misleading. And then you. We do. We are. I'm 37. Like, we've been in this church for so long, and to not know it makes you just feel so stupid. Like, I've dedicated my entire life to this church. Every decision I've ever made in my life was based on this church.

John Dehlin [03:54:01] All that you just told us, you went through.

Jesse Funk [03:54:03] Yeah, and I.

John Dehlin [03:54:03] Because you thought the church was true.

Jesse Funk [03:54:05] Exactly. And I didn't know the truth. I didn't know the real story. That's not. That's not okay. The truth matters. Accuracy in history matters. Period. Yeah. Okay. Shame is a weapon. Publicly shaming. When in the Mormon Church, when you go to your bishop and you. You say, I've, I've sinned, sometimes a punishment for that is you don't get to take the sacrament, which is a practice inside of church on Sunday where you're passing around a plate of bread and you take a piece. And when you. When you're being punished, you can't take that bread. And when. When someone sees someone else not taking the bread, you know that there's been a sin, you know that they're. They're being punished for something. So public shaming. Unacceptable. Unacceptable in so many ways.

John Dehlin [03:54:56] Priests or deacons can't pass or bless or you can't go to temple. Like, you can't go to. There's a youth temple trip and a teenage girl doesn't get a temple recommend because she, you know, someone touched her and she admitted it or she was assaulted or whatever, and now she can't go. And all the youth are going to talk about it.

Jesse Funk [03:55:15] Right, Exactly. And it's. And it's not uncommon, and it's not unpopular to ask. We ask. If someone comes home from their mission early, it's not uncommon, common for someone to feel totally justified in saying why did you come home early? Did you sin? Did, were you not worthy? Or why, why aren't you on your mission yet? Are you not worthy? Those questions are asked often. It's, it's kind of a, it's not, I wouldn't say popular. It's just not uncommon. So.

John Dehlin [03:55:43] Or if someone asks if you're married in the temple.

Jesse Funk [03:55:46] Exactly. And then, and see, I'm 37 and I've been deconstructing for a long time. I, I am a therapist for crying out loud. And I still felt like I needed to tell you that I needed to explain it.

Jesse Funk [03:55:59] That's astounding to me that I, that I just did that. That's how deep it is inside of us. Yeah, that's, that one's going to be hilarious to think about. All right. The threat of being separated from your family talked about this. I never saw it as this happy, beautiful promise. A lot of people think, oh, I can be with my family forever. I saw it as threat. If I'm not perfect and I don't live this gospel exactly the way I should, I will be separated from my family. A God designed a system where he will keep me from my babies. If I'm not perfect. That's not a God I want to believe in. I don't like that God. He sounds like a jerk. I'm saying it, it's not okay.

Carah Burrell [03:56:36] I really think that it's, it's, it could be such a beautiful idea. I think a lot of Mormon ideas like that, that are beautiful until you ask follow up questions.

Jesse Funk [03:56:46] Right?

Carah Burrell [03:56:46] Like I get to be with my family forever. Okay, what happens if I don't fulfill all these covenants and principles? There's huge ramifications to some beautiful principles like the, the history of that being invented. I think Joseph Smith made it up around the time that his, his brother Alvin died unexpectedly and trying to, trying to comfort his mother. And the, when the minister was saying, okay, he's going to help because he wasn't that baptized. And Joseph putting a doctrine into place, oh, that's beautiful. Let's add something there that can be beautiful. But then when it's, you know, used against you to make you conform into a place that you physically cannot form, conform within and that it's uses a power against you. Like I wish, I wish Mormons would, would acknowledge the good parts, that things are beautiful but, but they can also be used in really nefarious ways that are just not. Right.

Jesse Funk [03:57:34] Right.

Carah Burrell [03:57:35] That are just completely un. Helpful for human flourishing, I think.

Jesse Funk [03:57:38] Right. And then you live in fear because you're so scared of that. Because it's the most important thing.

Carah Burrell [03:57:43] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [03:57:43] In the whole world. It's the most important thing. So to have that threat just hanging over your head all the time.

Carah Burrell [03:57:50] No, but you do sound like you. You were a pretty good wife, and I heard that somewhere. You probably did a good job to say that.

John Dehlin [03:57:59] That it. One of the. One of the. The most powerful, profound, and most difficult realizations I've had over the past five to 10 to 20 years is that the most beaut. The allegedly most beautiful tenet of Mormonism, which is eternal families, in reality, terrorizes.

Jesse Funk [03:58:18] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:58:19] Members of the church.

Jesse Funk [03:58:20] It does. It does. And it has the power to destroy families. And it.

John Dehlin [03:58:23] And it destroys families.

Jesse Funk [03:58:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it did destroy my family.

John Dehlin [03:58:28] Family. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [03:58:28] Yeah. I'm. I'm very comfortable saying that. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:58:33] Okay.

Jesse Funk [03:58:34] Obviously, LGBT issues. We've talked about that a lot. Garments, I. I do believe that they're designed to make women feel. Not confident. I'll say that. And.

John Dehlin [03:58:48] And not sexually empowered.

Jesse Funk [03:58:50] Exactly. Yeah. Heaven forbid. We want to celebrate our sexuality. We want to feel. Feel pretty. We want to feel, you know, confident in our skin. I. I never. When I would sing, I would never wear garments because I was constantly fidgeting. Because in Mormon religion, you. You don't want to let them show. There's, like, this funny phrase people say where if you can see your garments, you're like, oh, your religion is showing. And so you don't ever want them to show. And so I was always, like, fidgeting, just making sure that my shoulders were covered and, like, my. My shorts were long enough, so I was covering my.

Jesse Funk [03:59:22] My. My garments. Like, I was constantly fidgeting, which makes us feel very insecure. You can't be confident if you're constantly fidgeting. So I would never wear garments while I was performing, and I had to justify that to many people.

Jesse Funk [03:59:35] And I felt bad about it. Like, that was wrong. But in my mind, I was like, I have to be confident. I have to present myself confidently. So, yeah, it was very. Yeah. Not empowering. The shame around sex. It's. If you have sex before you're married or with, you know, outside of the confines of being married, it's a sin next to murder.

Jesse Funk [03:59:59] That just is so sad to me that. That it's. It's such a beautiful, natural, healthy, wonderful thing. And. Yeah. We're shaming so much around that. Brainwashing. There's active brainwashing that happens when a child gets baptized at the age of eight. It's very common for people to say, oh, I'm so proud of you, Timmy. You made the right choice to be baptized.

Jesse Funk [04:00:28] That completely takes away that child's agency in that moment. Because he knows that if he says, oh, I don't want to be baptized, he'll instantly disappoint whoever just told him that they were so proud of him. And he also knows, knows that there's something wrong with him because he should be so proud of this choice he made. So for a child developmentally, they are not old enough or developmentally ready to make a decision like that and to understand what it means. So to.

John Dehlin [04:00:58] For eternity.

Jesse Funk [04:00:59] For eternity. And so to like for people to be. To say, I'm so proud of you. You made this choice that instantly starts the Dr. Process. That's not all right. Prayer. We talked about that. If they're healed, God answered the prayer. If they're not, then it's just God's will.

Jesse Funk [04:01:18] I just feel like that's very problematic for like what we said before. Just people thinking, oh, I guess I wasn't faithful enough then. You know, that's, that's very traumatizing. Could be very traumatizing. Worthiness. I, I have major issues with, with the fact that we use that word. We shouldn't even use that word. If, if you pass a, and you go into a bishop's interview in order to get a temple recommend, if you pass that test, that, that interview and you are awarded this temple recommend in order to get into the temple, it should be something like, you are qualified now because you passed this test.

John Dehlin [04:01:56] How is it, how is it right

Jesse Funk [04:01:57] now we say you are not worthy? We use the word worthy. And to me that word has so much power. Our worth is inherent. We are worthy of love. We are worthy of God's love. We're worthy of success and happiness and, and being treated with respect because we breathe, we don't have to earn it. So I have major issues with that word because I have talked to so many kids, especially LGBT kids, but also kids that are not LGBT, who truly think their worth as a human is tied to, to being able to pass a temple recommend interview. That's unbelievable to me. I just, I struggle with that so much. Lastly, they crazy also that a man,

John Dehlin [04:02:42] some middle aged man who's a plumber or electrician, gets to decide.

Jesse Funk [04:02:47] Right. Who has no mental health training.

John Dehlin [04:02:50] Yeah, well, even if he did.

Jesse Funk [04:02:52] Right.

John Dehlin [04:02:52] It'd be worse.

Jesse Funk [04:02:53] Exactly. That's true. That's very true.

John Dehlin [04:02:56] I, as a registered, licensed psychologist, deem you unworthy, which they're not.

Jesse Funk [04:03:01] But yeah, very true.

John Dehlin [04:03:03] Yeah. Or for a woman, that a man gets to decide a woman's worthiness before God, that's like triple awful.

Jesse Funk [04:03:12] And I mean, that's another thing. Bishops interviews. It's encouraged, it's taught. It is expected for a bishop to ask very personal sexual questions to kids on their own, one on one, underage kids. And that is a, that's a practice that any, any therapist, any social worker, like anyone.

John Dehlin [04:03:30] Most mainstream religions.

Jesse Funk [04:03:32] Right, right. Would see that as a very inappropriate, very ineffective, very potentially traumatizing thing. A traumatizing practice that should not be practiced. And bishops do ask incredibly invasive questions like, you know, do you masturbate? How often does it feel good? I mean, like, very inappropriate questions. Yeah. Did you, like, how many times?

John Dehlin [04:04:00] I mean, under the clothes, over the clothes, all that stuff?

Jesse Funk [04:04:03] Yeah, that's just, that's just not okay. It's not. And it's encouraged and it is expected. So, yeah, that part is so, so messed up. And then lastly, I believe that the Church creates a disease and then offers the cure.

John Dehlin [04:04:17] Meaning, what

Jesse Funk [04:04:20] if you were just born into the world, you didn't have any religious context whatsoever, you would never, ever, ever come up with the idea that If I pay 10% of my money to an organization, or if I wear these, these under this type of underwear, or if I go on a mission or, you know, whatever, if I do these certain things, then I'll get to be with my family forever after I die. You would never come up with a system like that in your own head. So the Church has created an idea, they've created a belief system that kind of holds us captive because it puts us into, into a state of fear. And then they offer the solution, they offer the cure. Live Mormonism. And then you get to be with your family forever.

John Dehlin [04:05:08] And there's a parallel thing, just the atonement, which we all want to love Jesus and the atonement, we're all conditioned to love that. But none of us would be born with the idea that, oh, oops, I, oh, I did this thing. And there were these consequences. I'm a sinner, I'm bad, I've besmirched my soul, I'm wicked. Now and then have an organization that can say, okay, but you need us. You need to eat this bread and drink this water. Water and say these prayers and do these things. And that's the only way you'll have the sin wiped away. And you have to believe in this person who died 2,000 years ago because God killed his own son, so that then somehow that made it right. But now we need to be sad and feel bad and feel like we were the cause of that innocent person dying. Like, that's all manufactured, pressured.

Carah Burrell [04:06:00] And the same God also who really likes blood sacrifices before he sacrificed his son. So it's. It's all within. Like, you would never invent a system, like you were saying, where you're feeling bad and you need to, like, sacrifice your firstborn goat or something and this will, like, relieve that pain and suffering. Like, that's a very uniquely, like, human religion thing that we kind of invented to get this out of our system. And if we can recognize that's a. Where our, like, the human species started and what's true and what's. What's not true, what's causing painful externalities and what's not. What's. Let's weigh the pros and cons of taking things that we adopted in the Stone Age and then moving forward, taking the good things with us and then leaving behind the untrue things so we can all live in a society based on truth.

Carah Burrell [04:06:45] Like, that's a. That recognizing where we came from and moving forward in all of this is like, the only way that I. I can really see this working.

John Dehlin [04:06:53] And the alternative to that is, is a just learn lessons model. It's more like, oh, okay, I did these three things when I was 12, and maybe it wasn't the best for me or the best for somebody else, and now I'll just learn and I'll do better.

Jesse Funk [04:07:09] Right?

John Dehlin [04:07:09] Like, there's a no better do better model which is probably. Would be more naturally intuitive than I. I am an awful person, and my eternal salvation is in jeopardy, and my loving God may not want me to live with him forever, and I may not ever get to see my family, and I may be destroying, you know, my family unit in thereafter. It just. The stakes are so high. And by the way, it's all next to murder, right? Like, yeah, that's. It's a manufactured.

Carah Burrell [04:07:38] Right.

John Dehlin [04:07:38] System.

Jesse Funk [04:07:39] Right. And it is a very toxic system if you don't fit in the box. If you fit in the box. A lot of people really love it. It does give them certainty and love. Love and connection and community and hope and happiness. A lot of people really love Mormonism, and I celebrate that. I truly do. Wonderful. But if you don't fit in that box if you're lgbtq, if I would kind of argue, like most women, like, if you're not, you know, a white man, straight, if you don't fit in this certain box, then it can be extremely toxic.

John Dehlin [04:08:18] So all these things have led you to conclude, what about the church?

Jesse Funk [04:08:23] I absolutely believe that it is not true on any level, and I do feel that it is harmful for children.

John Dehlin [04:08:32] And adults.

Jesse Funk [04:08:33] And adults. Yep. Yep. So my. My focus in my work is. Is kids. So I. I really just think about them and they. That ideology, growing up with. With that worries me a lot.

John Dehlin [04:08:47] So I want to spend a little bit of time about you finding joy and health and happiness now, because we're all conditioned to believe, quote, wickedness never was happiness. And what's more wicked than to have the light and then lose it? And so orthodox Mormon would think, well, now your life just must be misery and sadness and weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth and debauchery. But before we get to that, Carah has been patiently kind of like, monitoring listener and viewer comments. We've had all these wonderful. We've had a really large, sustained audience

Carah Burrell [04:09:19] on YouTube of amazing.

John Dehlin [04:09:22] Yeah. Sustained viewers, and we're grateful for that audience. And Carrie, you said you. Maybe you've had some questions or comments that you.

Carah Burrell [04:09:29] Yeah, let's just rapid fire a few questions, if that's okay. Jesse.

Jesse Funk [04:09:32] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:09:33] Um, so I'm gonna leave names off of this because A, I can't pronounce them, and B, if someone, like, goes to byu, I don't want to, like, write their name, get them.

John Dehlin [04:09:40] Get them kicked out.

Jesse Funk [04:09:41] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:09:43] So this person asked or said that they are. They said, I'm not wanting to leave the church, but I do agree with a lot of what was said today, and I want to be a better person. How can I help create change from inside the church? Is that even possible? Because I see a lot of new eczemo friends, and I see the pain people have been. Been through. And she said at her recent experience with BYU Idaho, she understands even more. So what can people within the church do? If they. They're listening to this, they're resonating, resonating with it. What can they do? Is change possible, in your opinion?

Jesse Funk [04:10:16] I do. I absolutely do. I think if you're gonna stay in the church, use your voice, raise your hand, speak up. And when you hear things that you know are not right, use those beautiful critical thinking skills and say something, because you will absolutely guaranteed, 100% inspire other people to do the same. Thing who, I promise you are thinking the same thing, but they might be too scared. So you be the brave one. You be the brave one and say it. And say it in a respectful way. It's not like you need to just say, oh, no, that's wrong. That's terrible. But just say, I have a question about that.

Jesse Funk [04:10:50] This. This is. What if we saw it from this side? You know, I'd love to bring in a different perspective, like, come at it from a healthy debate type of, I don't know, attitude or mindset, and just ask the question. Because even if you just ask the question and you don't even offer an answer, you're going to inspire other people to be brave and to honor their critical thinking. I think amazing change can happen if we all celebrate our critical thinking, critical thinking skills, and we raise our voices.

Carah Burrell [04:11:20] Yeah, I think that's a beautiful answer.

John Dehlin [04:11:21] Unless you're at byu, then you get. You worry.

Carah Burrell [04:11:25] You risk getting a faculty member of byu.

Jesse Funk [04:11:27] That's true.

John Dehlin [04:11:28] So, I mean, yes. Yes. I'm not correcting you, but yes. And make sure you're safe.

Jesse Funk [04:11:34] Right.

John Dehlin [04:11:34] There are situations where it's just better to stay quiet. And then you need a therapist or a coach. And by the way, at least BYU Provo has amazing therapists in their counseling centers that will respect your confidentiality. They won't turn you into the honor code, and they will help you even navigate a faith crisis in a way where you're not kicked out of the university. So get help. And if you're at byu, Idaho, and you're not sure you can trust the therapist in the counseling center there, there are coaches, there are therapists that we can put you in touch with, or local ones there in Rexburg or in BYU Hawaii, you can find a coach or a therapist that will help help you be able to stay healthy and safe while you have to kind of ride out inauthenticity, which is toxic, but a reality for many people.

Jesse Funk [04:12:21] Yeah. And if you're part of the LGBT community and you don't feel comfortable saying anything, you know, to your family, there's some fantastic free resources. I really love 7cups.com. It's online, it's anonymous, it's free. Great therapy. You don't need your parents permission. That's 7cups.com and then encircle is such an amazing program here in the state of Utah.

Carah Burrell [04:12:43] They have.

John Dehlin [04:12:44] It's in Provo. It's in Salt Lake. Salt Lake.

Jesse Funk [04:12:46] They're building one in Heber. There's one in St. George. They're building one in Ogden and Logan.

John Dehlin [04:12:50] Logan. Yeah. And Vegas. They just announced one in Vegas.

Jesse Funk [04:12:54] So exciting.

John Dehlin [04:12:54] We're gonna talk about dotting the globe with temples. We're gonna dot the globe within circles. Stephanie Sorensen Larsen and Jacob Dunford and all the amazing people at Encircle. That's.

Jesse Funk [04:13:06] They're incredible.

John Dehlin [04:13:07] Yeah, yeah. There's going to be a. You said Rexburg, right?

Jesse Funk [04:13:11] I. I heard that. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [04:13:12] I hope and pray for an Encircle. Rexburg.

Jesse Funk [04:13:15] Nice.

John Dehlin [04:13:16] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [04:13:16] Yes. There's great resources, but yeah, if you are, you know, if you're feeling ready, like, speak up, ask questions. Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:13:25] Assessing your safety first. Because I always like to say. John always likes to say assess your safety if you're a teenager. And I think it's healthy to, you know, try to be authentic. But if you're very livelihood exists around you, being able to get along with your parents and them not kicking you out of the house, because that's the type of parents that they are. Yeah, yeah. But definitely we try to support anybody who is trying to live an authentic life. So Lauren Perry has been in the chat the whole time. She just wanted to know how Jesse feels about chocolate milk and coffee, which I tried at Barry Lake, which was great.

Jesse Funk [04:14:04] She's adorable. She's on our especially for Truth Team. She's just amazing. She's so funny. She's making a little inside joke.

Carah Burrell [04:14:11] Right, right. Yeah, it's delicious. I tried it.

John Dehlin [04:14:14] You are on the record about coffee.

Jesse Funk [04:14:16] I love coffee. Oh, I celebrate that. Yeah, it's delicious.

Carah Burrell [04:14:19] We have so much to do. Women like us. When we leave the church, we can't spend a moment sleeping or being groggy.

Jesse Funk [04:14:24] I know.

Carah Burrell [04:14:25] We need to be caffeinated and fueled.

Jesse Funk [04:14:27] That's right.

Rebuilding Family Relationships After Leaving

Carah Burrell [04:14:28] Um, and then another person asked. I'm going to make this into my own question. They asked how your relationship with your mom is now, and you mentioned it was good.

Jesse Funk [04:14:35] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:14:36] Tell me about the story of what happened when you finally told her that you were leaving. Or how did. Did you tell her about your doubts as they were happening when you couldn't talk to your husband? How did that relationship progress?

Jesse Funk [04:14:45] Um, I don't remember, like an actual specific moment, but it was just kind of a slow progression of, okay, mom, like, I'm figuring a few things out. What do you think about this? What do you think about this? And so we just started talking and she was very careful, like she did not want to cross any boundaries. And I was still like, I want to hear a little bit But I'm not ready for you to tell me everything, so don't fire hose me. But like, it was just kind of this slow progression of both of us just kind of inching our way toward each other and now we can talk about anything.

Jesse Funk [04:15:16] And it's so wonderful. And we hang out, out and we have fun and we're actually friends. And I literally missed out on at least, I want to say, like, at least 15 years of having a relationship with my mother. So it's been amazing and I'm so grateful for her.

Carah Burrell [04:15:34] Yeah, yeah. Going back to when you're talking about the really difficult things that come from leaving the church or getting divorced, it sounds like by losing this relationship with obviously your children's father and your husband. Husband. But there are other relationships that you neglect by being part of the church now that you get to foster.

Jesse Funk [04:15:53] Yes.

Carah Burrell [04:15:53] Like, that's exciting.

Jesse Funk [04:15:54] Totally.

Carah Burrell [04:15:54] That's really beautiful.

Jesse Funk [04:15:55] Double whammy.

Carah Burrell [04:15:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:57] And, and I, you know, this is all part of the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast that, where we have like 70 plus hours. If you are going through a faith crisis, I'm going to just do this free 70 plus hours of free coaching. Go to mormonfaithcrisis.com we should mention this at the beginning of every single Mormon Stories podcast episode.

Carah Burrell [04:16:16] We're obsessed with it. It's the most important thing, I think that Mormon Stories has literally ever done is, is these, these, these retreat episodes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:16:23] So basically me, my wife Margi and Natasha, Alfred Parker, who's a sex therapist and a marriage and family therapist. You know, between me and Natasha, I don't know anyone else who's got more experience coaching or counseling people in Faith Crisis. I've been doing it for 20 plus years.

John Dehlin [04:16:39] We, we created 70 hours of in depth, intensive, free three coaching for how to come out to believing family and friends, how to come out to your believing kids, how to, you know, grieve, how to speak with your bishops, healthy sexuality, you know, just all the things, how to deal with anger, how to, you know, become an empowered woman.

John Dehlin [04:17:07] Just dealing with extended family, like all the different things that you're struggling, struggling with, how to raise healthy kids without the church as a framework, healthy parenting, healthy spirituality, all of it. And we're going to be doing more. Maybe in the next, going forward, we're going to try and do more of this content integrated into Mormon Stories Podcast growth and healing.

Carah Burrell [04:17:27] And yeah, you know, if you've deconstructed the church enough and you need to say, what now? There's so Many so much good content that we're trying to find a way to get it out, out to more people right now.

John Dehlin [04:17:39] Yeah, but. But I was all say this because one of the gifts of a Mormon faith crisis is you will lose relationships. Yeah, relationships. Some will. You'll lose some relationships. Sometimes parents, sometimes siblings, sometimes best friends. You will lose relationships. And then other relationships will be downgraded where they. You were able to, like, have high levels of emotional intimacy and connection and just they become, like, more surface relationships where most of the things you or they care about, you can't talk about anymore. That will happen.

John Dehlin [04:18:13] You'll have to mourn and grieve it. It'll be a death. It'll take years to sort of process that for many of you. And the gift is the holes that will open up from those lost relationships can and will be filled with if.

John Dehlin [04:18:31] If you put yourself out there, relationships that will become more deep, more meaningful, more rich, more satisfying than you would have ever imagined possible. And the example of your relationship with your mom. How's that for lemonade? From this lemon?

Jesse Funk [04:18:50] Oh, exactly. And it's really beautiful because I do think anyone listening to this, like, you're saying, saying they will lose some relationships, relationships will change, but to gain ones that are more authentic. And you're able to have even more emotional intimacy because of your choosing to live an authentic life. It's worth it. So worth it.

John Dehlin [04:19:15] Yeah. All right. What else care. Any other questions or comments? And if any of our YouTube listeners are. Want to just ask a quick question right now?

Carah Burrell [04:19:24] Yeah, yeah, I'll be keeping track of. I'm going to save the last two until we're a little bit more further towards. They're more about healing and where you've gotten, I guess, like your. Where you found new community and your plans for the future. So I don't feel like we're quite ready to talk about that, but do you want to talk about that?

John Dehlin [04:19:44] Okay, let's do that. So let's do a lightning round. Okay, let. So in the gift of the Moral Faith Crisis podcast, you will learn that when you go through a faith crisis, several holes develop. Okay, so there's spirituality, there's morality, there's family, there's friends, there's community, there is meaning and purpose, there's your. The underpinnings of your marital relationship. There's your community. And there's these existential sort of like, issues around death and the affairs, afterlife, identity. All these things become holes where it's just like, wait, I had that figured out. I had that dialed in, and now all of a sudden you're like, what's my morality?

John Dehlin [04:20:29] What's my spirituality? Where do I find community? What's my marriage built on? What about death? What about the afterlife? Right? Am I a moral person? Can I be a moral person? Can I be a good husband? Can it be a good spouse? Can I raise my kids? These are the holes that. That develop. So let's do a lightning round, and I'm going to ask you each one of those questions, because there's going to be people out there right now that are like, oh, Jesse Funk, I love you. Or they're going to say, oh, my gosh, I'm right in the middle of this, and I'm terrified because, like, I feel like Swiss cheese.

John Dehlin [04:21:01] And there's no way I'm going to ever feel whole and happy and healthy again. It's just. It's all dark. Like you said, the light will come, Right. People in the military of a faith crisis feel like it's all dark.

Jesse Funk [04:21:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:21:13] And there's no hope, and they'll never know happiness and joy again. So I'm going to just give you a little rifle round, and I'm going to just have you address each one.

Jesse Funk [04:21:24] Okay. Do you want me to just, like, say yes or no?

John Dehlin [04:21:29] Have you started to figure out each of these domains, and if so, what are a few tips? Okay, so we'll start with spiritual spirituality. Okay. What does spirituality mean for you now, and have you found a replacement for Mormon spirituality? And if so, what is it?

Morality, Community, and Meaning After Mormonism

Jesse Funk [04:21:45] I do feel like I've replaced it just through being present and enjoying this life, finding joy, creating joy, being around people who I know I can be honest with, who I know I'm safe with, that has absolutely filled that hole for me and finding that community. So spirituality and community kind of went together with me.

John Dehlin [04:22:08] What about, like, the people? Like, what religion does so well is create those vibey, you know, flow. What's it called? The positive emotion, the elevation. Elevation emotion. That's like religion's main job is to just manufacture those feelings in the members, and that's what makes. It's like a drug that makes them want to go. Where do you now get your elevation emotion from if it's not from a religious service? I guess you never did.

Jesse Funk [04:22:35] Yeah, yeah, I never do.

John Dehlin [04:22:37] You get it now.

Jesse Funk [04:22:37] And if so, I feel like I. I have now what I've always had. I'm. I'm a genuinely just happy person. So that's a gift. I feel like I've always Had. And I recognize that's not something that everyone experiences but music and nature and really good people. I love good food. I love learning. Learning is like a. That's a spiritual practice for me. Just, you know, listening to podcasts and studying and getting excited about so many things that this world has to offer. There's so many beautiful things to look forward to.

John Dehlin [04:23:10] Do you feel more enriched versus than before?

Jesse Funk [04:23:13] 100%. Because now I'm much more open minded now. I'm so much more open to new ideas and different philosophies and different cultures. Cultures and. And I feel like I can, I can so much more easily bring in new information and I can really think about it and say, how do I feel about that? Use my critical thinking skills. And that's such a beautiful journey. I will never be bored.

Carah Burrell [04:23:36] Can I ask a question? Yeah. We talked a lot about critical thinking skills at the especially for Truth. Would you mind defining what critical thinking skills means to you?

Jesse Funk [04:23:45] Yeah, I mean, made it really simple so that like I could really make sure teenagers understand it. But just being able to take in information, ask yourself what you think, how you feel about it, maybe do your own research and allowing yourself that process before you instantly just jump in and say, okay, well, someone told me to think that or, or something told me to think this way or feel this way and allowing yourself to analyze for

Carah Burrell [04:24:11] yourself and to so understanding like fallacious arguments. Did that play in a little bit? I remember the, the booklet that you gave out had different charts within it that were really, really beautiful at explaining some of those key concepts. Is there anything else about critical thinking that you wish that people would understand that you felt was missing from your Mormon upbringing?

Jesse Funk [04:24:30] Yeah, I really wish we had been taught the verbiage, like the actual language around, I don't know, being able to name certain behavior or I mean, simple things. Like in an unhealthy relationship, there are red flags that you can name. And as soon as we can name them, it takes some of the power away from it. And we also don't have to take it so personally because we can say, okay, this is their thing. They're projecting this onto me. Right. So just these basic, like, psychological tools that give us the language to be able to explain it. Like being able to say, okay, that's gaslighting, that's manipulation, that's criticism. That is a controlling behavior behavior. So I don't have to take that on myself.

John Dehlin [04:25:08] It's narcissistic behavior.

Jesse Funk [04:25:10] Right, Exactly. So to be able to just say it, I think that goes into critical thinking to be able to have, have the language, but it does require some education in order to do that.

Carah Burrell [04:25:19] Is that something that you have been speaking at when you were talking about speaking to high schools and students, your red flag? Red flag. Is that just something outside of religion in general? It sounds like you're quite an expert in.

Jesse Funk [04:25:30] All right, so it's so important.

Carah Burrell [04:25:32] Want to get across.

Jesse Funk [04:25:33] Yeah, it's such an important piece that those things should be taught in kindergarten, like how to say it, because as soon as you can name it, it takes some of the sting away. And you can analyze it, you can process it. And having that critical thinking process is so important for everybody.

Carah Burrell [04:25:47] Yeah. We were saying when we were doing, you know, your EFT events that by the way, especially for truth.com we're going to plug it as many times as we can. So for your camp that's going to go on next summer and the women's

John Dehlin [04:26:01] events this year for that too. Women's event, especially for Truth this week in Park City. Go sign up now. It's amazing.

Jesse Funk [04:26:09] It's going to be so fun.

Carah Burrell [04:26:10] And just the amount of hours, it feels like 10,000 hours probably have gone into sometimes what, you know, the Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours thing. Like sometimes when you deconstruct the church and you feel like, oh, I have so much to learn. I feel like in the, in the Gift of the Mormon Faithful crisis that I just barely started watching last week, there's a woman who's like, I am in my 40s and I feel like I'm a child because there's so many things, so many tools that I wasn't taught within the church that we spend so much time and effort in classrooms and institute and seminary and there's so many tools that you need to make yourself just like a functional adult, to put up boundaries, to know when you're being abused in a relationship.

Carah Burrell [04:26:49] A million different things. And what I learned, loved about your event was like, ah, if this was the type of stuff that we taught teenagers in the Mormon church, you can, we can keep a lot of the religious things that doesn't bother me. But like there's a, there's a million and one things like we were talking about with red flags and the language around gaslighting and things that just from the earliest time that your brain is developing as a teenager, how helpful it is to have the language around those things. So outside of religion, just like, thank you for traveling, for doing what you do for a living, living as your main, as your Main job is teaching these things to teenagers.

Carah Burrell [04:27:22] Like that's such a beautiful job. That's so beautiful that, that teenagers have been able to, to grow from that and learn from the lessons and the, the speeches that you've given. So that's really, really cool and I, I hope people will sign up for that. We get to do these things in this post Mormon space now.

Jesse Funk [04:27:38] Me too. Me too. It's so exciting. I love our community. So much of the coolest ex mo. Community.

Carah Burrell [04:27:44] Community. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see what I wrote on your Description for the YouTube page?

Jesse Funk [04:27:48] No.

Carah Burrell [04:27:49] You didn't see what I wrote on the bottom? You reposted on Instagram. It was the description where I tried to put in as many singing.

Jesse Funk [04:27:55] Yes, I did.

Carah Burrell [04:27:56] And I said something about like how I hope that all of you, once you see this powerhouse Jesse Funk, will be really excited that she's joining the post Mormon activist space and that will be music to your ears.

John Dehlin [04:28:09] Okay. Like lightning Round continues.

Carah Burrell [04:28:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:28:12] Morality. Can you be an honest, moral, ethical person without a, without Mormonism or without some type of religious belief?

Jesse Funk [04:28:24] Yes, 100%. Especially when you have some education around what, what morality is and what, what matters to you. Once you identify your values and then you're educated on consent, consent and boundaries and you have like that verbiage, you have that language, you have that information in your head. I think you can be even more of a moral person because then it's guided by your own value system and not a value system that's been placed on you.

John Dehlin [04:28:50] Do you feel more honest now?

Jesse Funk [04:28:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:28:52] I mean there is the. We talk about honesty like we talk about morality, like don't lie and don't sleep around or whatever. Right. But, but you think about it. What if you're living a lie? Is that honest?

Jesse Funk [04:29:05] Right, exactly. And then especially, and especially like raising our children like my kids and I had this amazing conversation around masturbation and pornography the other day and I can be more honest with them in that conversation because now I'm not teaching them an abstinence, black and white only type of rhetoric that doesn't make any sense. That's not effective. I can have.

John Dehlin [04:29:28] Teaches them to lie to you.

Jesse Funk [04:29:29] Exactly right. And disconnects them from me because then they don't. They know that I don't know what I'm talking about. So they're not going to talk to me about this kind of stuff. So I can be a lot more honest and I can talk about the healthy, beautiful, wonderful things about sexuality. And I can explain. Here's why you want to be careful. Here's. Here are the really important things you need to know about birth control, and here's why. Pornography could be harmful. If you do it too much or whatever, you know, we can have this whole conversation and it's much more honest. They know that I'm more informed, so they trust me more. It brings us closer together. So I honestly believe you can teach even better morals outside of a church.

Carah Burrell [04:30:06] We have another question coming in that says, will you adopt me? Oh, that's from me, Carah Brell. Just kidding. You sound like a great mom. That sounds so beautiful. Like, who doesn't want a mom who's gonna talk openly and honestly about, like, just those issues?

John Dehlin [04:30:22] Healthy sexuality.

Jesse Funk [04:30:23] So important. Oh, my gosh. That's what I respect so much about Natasha. Like her bravery to talk about masturbation and sex. Sex and just the way she does it. That is so important. And then I honestly believe when a kid is empowered with real information, honest information, they will make better decisions. Not all the time, of course, but for sure. But in general, people want to be good, they want to do well, they want to have healthy relationships. So I. I honestly think it comes down to respect for human beings wanting to do good and wanting to do well.

Carah Burrell [04:31:00] Yeah, Sounds like you have a really. Like you're saying earlier, you have faith that humans are good.

Jesse Funk [04:31:06] I do. I am a humanist. I am. I'm owning that right now.

Carah Burrell [04:31:09] Right.

John Dehlin [04:31:11] Okay, Lightning moving around. Next. Next question. What about community? Like, you have a built in ward in Mormonism, you got your. All your neighbors are Mormon. If you're in Utah or Idaho or Arizona maybe, and you've just got this built in community. Even if you're in Chicago or Zimbabwe, if you're Mormon, you've got this branch reward of all these people that love you and take care of you and bring you casseroles.

Jesse Funk [04:31:33] Right.

John Dehlin [04:31:34] What are you doing for community?

Jesse Funk [04:31:35] For me, I just feel so ridiculously lucky that we already had an amazing post. Mormon community. I mean, I found Mormon Stories podcast. That was the first thing I found.

John Dehlin [04:31:45] The Facebook group.

Jesse Funk [04:31:46] No, the podcast.

John Dehlin [04:31:47] Okay, the podcast.

Jesse Funk [04:31:48] And then I found the Facebook group and I was like, oh, my God, I'm not alone. Like, that was incredible. And then Mormon enlightenment and Faith Journey meetups.

John Dehlin [04:31:58] So these are Facebook groups. Faith Journey Meetups. Chelsea Homer, Mormon Enlightenment, Sean and Crystal Escobar, Mormon Stories Podcast, Community. Keep going. I'm just making sure people.

Jesse Funk [04:32:07] Those ones were.

John Dehlin [04:32:08] We'll make links to all these.

Jesse Funk [04:32:09] Okay. And those were just lifelines for me.

John Dehlin [04:32:12] So Facebook group. Becomes community. Like, I'm thinking, like when I asked it, it's like, wait a minute, casseroles when you're pregnant, that's people in your neighborhood. But you're saying a Facebook community can actually fill some of the needs you had?

Jesse Funk [04:32:24] Yes. Oh, 100%. I just, I just needed friendship. I needed to be able to talk to people that were part of my tribe. And if you've read the book Sapiens, you know that we, we are tribal people. We have to have a tribe. It's not a luxury, it's oxygen. We have to have community and we have to belong. So to even just have people online, that was very sufficient for me. And then we started meeting up and there were like different little parties. And even if it was just a few people at a time, I just loved it. I loved every second of hanging out with people where you could say, oh, what do you think about this?

Jesse Funk [04:32:56] What do you think about that? Oh my gosh, didn't that just blow your mind when you learned about this with Joseph Smith? And just people that had been on the same journey as me going parallel, but we hadn't met yet. And so it was like catching up with old friends. It was so fantastic.

Jesse Funk [04:33:10] Obviously being able to date someone that I'm on the same page with, that's been life changing and he's helping me heal in just so many ways. But to feel like I have a partner and a friend and you know, like someone that will really have the same, same value system that, that has given me a sense of community just, just with him. And then obviously TikTok. Good grief. TikTok is that a community is the coolest community.

John Dehlin [04:33:36] People think of it as just like these short videos. How is it a community?

Jesse Funk [04:33:38] It's absolutely a community because we're all trying to cheer each other on, I feel.

John Dehlin [04:33:42] And we're all the creators, all the content creators.

Carah Burrell [04:33:44] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [04:33:44] Like there's so many of us and just in the comments and then being able to celebrate each other and, and then we do. TikTok's amazing because we do stitches. Like you can stitch with somebody, you can make a duet with somebody. So we can share other people's videos and like just being able to celebrate each other and everyone is putting out such fantastic content and doing so much research and it's in these bite sized pieces so you can share them easily with people. They're entertaining. They're so funny. Carah Burrell, good grief, you are so funny. And just put her in the com.

Carah Burrell [04:34:15] In the.

Jesse Funk [04:34:16] So it's so Fun to. To be able to have that kind of community where it's entertaining, it's fun and you feel connected and you know you're not alone, you know you're not crazy. And then people are just so welcoming and supportive. You know, that's, that's what we need in community. Support, love, connection and friendship.

John Dehlin [04:34:35] Also, ex Mormon Reddit is an amazing resource for those who, you know, want a place to anonymously share things. Ask questions, comments, comment, have conversations. That's really powerful. I just want to throw in a plug for Thrive. You know, we. We are going to be ramping up our Thrive events. There's a Thrive event for women that's in October, October 2nd during General Conference. I don't know if it's sold out or there's like a couple tickets left, but like how many total tickets? 700, 750. What an amazing turnout. Like our entire mass massive global Thrive right before COVID was like 16, 1700. We've got 700 people during. 700 women right during COVID Signing up. Sign up at Thrive.

Especially for Truth and Post-Mormon Community Work

Carah Burrell [04:35:23] ThriveBeyondReligion.com Nice too is now that we're doing this live, I can, I've just been putting links into these. These chats too. So anyone, all the 600 people. Oh down they. They'll get these, these links immediately right now too.

John Dehlin [04:35:36] Totally.

Jesse Funk [04:35:37] And toast.

John Dehlin [04:35:37] And you can check the show notes.

Carah Burrell [04:35:39] Yeah, check the show notes. Like you guys have no excuse. You can't say you didn't hear the address. We're making sure like we want this community is so good. And once you show up, you'll love it too, I think.

John Dehlin [04:35:49] And we're. We're. We're tentatively planning a big Thrive event in November, but I'm not ready to totally announce that yet. But we have thrive St. George in February that that will be opening up ticket sales to soon.

Jesse Funk [04:36:01] Awesome.

John Dehlin [04:36:02] Alberta. We may be doing a Thrive event in Alberta, Canada in January.

Carah Burrell [04:36:07] Bring your baby.

John Dehlin [04:36:08] So stay tuned for that. And we're doing Thrive Arizona in. Is it is November, right? Is it in November?

Jesse Funk [04:36:16] I'm not sure about that one.

John Dehlin [04:36:17] Yeah. And so all tickets will be. We're renovating the thrivebeyondreligion.com website right now and just check back within a week or two. And then in the future you may be listening to this in six or 12 months. Just go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and there'll be a big list of events that you can go to. And Thrive is never about criticizing the church. It's never about deconstructing Mormonism. It's literally about mental health, relationships, healing, growth, community, finding friends. That's all it's about.

Jesse Funk [04:36:52] Love it.

John Dehlin [04:36:53] And you, you are thinking about maybe helping Thrive November. Oh yeah, Youth track. Is that right?

Jesse Funk [04:36:58] I'm so excited about this possibility. We don't know for sure like exactly how it'll all work, but I'm, I am so on board. I would love to have you guys in one big room at the Salt palace with 1700 or 2000 adults and then I take their kids and we go into a totally different room, like a thousand teenagers. And I would love that to be 100% teen led. So I would love a teenager to be the mc, a teenager to speak, teenagers to perform. We could do poetry slams, we could have a band, we could have kids that are singing and dancing and like performing and then just tons of different activities. I'm thinking flash tattoos, I'm thinking like wrist, like the glow in the dark wristbands and just making it so fun for these kids, but a whole bunch of them themselves. So I think that would be amazing.

John Dehlin [04:37:44] That's really cool.

Jesse Funk [04:37:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:37:48] Okay. So that's so community wise. Like a lot of times there's kind of this idea that there's no way to like feel like you have a better community resources after leaving the church than before. And the truth is this is one of the hardest problems that people have. Even with all these resources, there's still people that want friends in their neighborhood, they want friends in their local area and they struggle to find that. So we have a long way to, to go. There are Thrive communities where you can go to the Thrive Beyond Religion website and find a local or start a community of your own. We're going to be announcing a huge thrive initiative super soon. But the, but the, the question I'm asking you is, is it possible to leave the church and feel like you're better off community wise than, than when you were in the church?

Jesse Funk [04:38:38] I guess that's, I 100% think that because if you are living in the church and you are, you do have that, that sense of community just because they're the people that live around you. But those relationships are very surface level.

Jesse Funk [04:38:53] I don't think that's the most ideal situation it can work for sure. There's wonderful wards that people really are very, very close. But I just don't think it's completely ideal or can be. And so having a community with people that you know on the deepest level of who you are, are that you, you resonate with them and the belief systems align and they're. They're part of your tribe. We don't want to get into us versus them thinking, but we do want to be with people that we really mesh with. That's just how humans are, and that's okay.

Jesse Funk [04:39:26] I also do think, though, you can still have good relationships with people in your own neighborhood, even if you have differing beliefs, as long as you're willing to set boundaries. Boundaries. And you're able to communicate where you are in a healthy way. So, you know people saying, like, when I just moved into a brand new ward, I got a text almost immediately. Even though I've officially resigned from the church. I used QuitMormon.com it was a fantastic experience, by the way.

Jesse Funk [04:39:52] But I got a text almost immediately from the Relief Society president. She's like, hey, we're doing a cupcake war. Come and hang out with us and make cupcakes. And I was like, I'm not a member of the church, but I'd love to come hang out. And I went and participated and it was so much fun and everyone knew exactly where I was and it was a brand new ward and they were so kind to me and so sweet, but I was very honest about where I was, so I felt like I was living in integrity and they were so respectful of me and we had a great night.

John Dehlin [04:40:21] Nice.

Jesse Funk [04:40:22] Yeah. So I really believe there's a lot of hope for that as long as everyone is honest and respectful.

John Dehlin [04:40:27] Yeah. One of the most common reactions, especially among our Christian listeners and friends, and we're not anti religious belief per se, as long as the beliefs aren't harmful or that they're not false. But one of the most common reactions is, oh, poor you. Like, you don't have now a belief in a loving heavenly father that's looking out for you and intervening and taking care of you and blessing you. Now you don't have. Have that comfort. And now you don't have a loving savior, Jesus, who died for you and who got resurrected so that you live again. And he this unconditionally loving elder brother, like, let alone the example.

John Dehlin [04:41:08] So, like, poor you, like, why would you even want to keep living if you don't have a loving heavenly father figure and a loving savior in your life? So it's fine if people believe, believe that. How, how is that for you now? And is that a loss for you or not now?

Jesse Funk [04:41:27] It's so sad to me. I have thought about that so many times, that exact thing. Like, if I don't believe In a God, then what do I believe? Do I need to replace it with something? And in my mind, I've never felt the spirit of God. I've never felt it. I wanted to. I prayed for it. I. I did all the things that. That I was told would lead me to it, but it didn't work. I don't feel like I've ever had a very. An actual spiritual experience where I was like, whoa, something inside me is. You know what I mean? I just don't feel like I've ever had that. And so to me, it was not a loss. That peace was not a loss. I believe that Jesus Christ, in fact,

John Dehlin [04:42:06] probably caused you a lot of anxiety.

Jesse Funk [04:42:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:42:08] Wondering why you didn't feel it.

Jesse Funk [04:42:09] Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:42:10] How do you get it and what's wrong. Wrong with you? Right.

Jesse Funk [04:42:12] Literally my whole life, anxiety, not peace, anxiety. Yeah. And so losing. Losing a relationship with God, that hasn't been difficult at all. Like, I meditate every day, so I feel like I. I still have that introspective time. And I absolutely do a gratitude practice. And sometimes I'll say things like, you know, if there's God out there, I. I love the idea of you. Like, you just.

Jesse Funk [04:42:38] It sounds nice to have, like, a father in the sky that cares about me. So I'll say things like that, and that feels okay. But I don't know, and I don't believe that. And I'm totally comfortable not knowing. Totally comfortable.

Jesse Funk [04:42:51] But I just practice gratitude. So for me, that spiritual element is in meditation. Gratitude, nature, healthy relationships, showing love towards people. That's where I get my spiritual now. So. And then Jesus Christ, I. I believe that he was a real person. I believe that he actually lived. He was a real human being. Son of God. I have no idea. No clue. I think if. If the stories are true about how he lived his life. Beautiful example.

Jesse Funk [04:43:19] But I would put him on the same level as a lot of other heroes from history. You know, that, that I've learned a lot from.

John Dehlin [04:43:26] Who have you promoted as prophet seers and revelators for you now? Or prophetesses or prophet or inspirational people? Do you have any favorites lately?

Jesse Funk [04:43:36] It's Glennon Doyle, of course. I love her. Brene Brown. It's just one of my favorites. Oprah.

Carah Burrell [04:43:45] Yeah.

Jesse Funk [04:43:46] I do love. Not 100%, but a lot of the stories from our founding fathers. Benjamin Franklin was always a hero from history, super smart, and so he had a lot of wisdom to offer. Yeah. Malala, Gandhi, Socrates, Plato, stoicism. I am obsessed with stoicism. Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus, Seneca. I love studying heroes from history and taking the good along with the bad. And there's plenty of things where I'm like, okay, I'm not interested in that. But it's interesting information. You can still learn from it. Right. Even if it's not the best example. So I take in all the information and I enjoy that so much. Studying from history, isn't that a huge

John Dehlin [04:44:33] area where you trade up? Because when you're just stuck with like journal discourses and conference talks and the same old warmed over, stale. I hate to say it, but stale Mormon theology.

Jesse Funk [04:44:45] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [04:44:45] Now you've got just these brilliant men and women of all different intellectual traditions throughout all of time that you can draw inspiration from.

Jesse Funk [04:44:55] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:44:56] It's not like old white dudes from Idaho and Utah anymore. Your only potential sources of inspiration.

Jesse Funk [04:45:01] Yes. And you can open your mind to everybody. You don't have to put a judgment on it. Because there's so much in your conditioning where you see something or hear something or read something and you're like, oh, I shouldn't feel this way, or I shouldn't think this way about this person's story or that that part of their story is not acceptable because that's not in line with Mormon theology. Like, who am I to judge that? Right. So just to be able to open your mind and say, this is a beautiful story. I appreciate this story. Not to put any judgment on it.

John Dehlin [04:45:39] Right.

Jesse Funk [04:45:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:45:40] Beautiful. Okay. The. So two of the biggest ones are like, death in the afterlife. There's so many people that just hate their life because they've got all sorts of things that maybe you and I don't have or we don't have. Whether it's chronic illness or abusive, you know, a traumatic past or just socioeconomic issues or whatever it is, or just like a neurological kind of brain status of like constant sadness or depression or just a lot of normal people just. It's really important for them to believe that life has meaning and purpose and that there's an afterlife. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna now ask to what about meaning and purpose in life?

John Dehlin [04:46:24] And then I'm gonna talk about death in the afterlife. So what is if you're not trying to gain that eternal family and become a God someday? Because that's. That dream. Is God gone? What is. Why even live? What's the meaning and purpose of life for you now?

Jesse Funk [04:46:39] I actually love that question. Carah talked about this at eft. Do you remember this? Like, that's actually the exciting part.

Carah Burrell [04:46:46] I Had to stand up. I got so excited.

John Dehlin [04:46:47] She did.

Jesse Funk [04:46:48] She was like, okay, I'm feeling it, I'm feeling it. It was so cute. So, like, I think that is the, one of the most freeing parts of leaving the church. All of a sudden you're, you are free to decide what the meaning. Meaning is. You're free to create what the meaning is. I love that. That has been such a fun journey for me because then you instantly just, you're able to say what matters, what really matters? What do I really want? Who am I? What do I want to offer? How do I want to contribute? Because I'm here, I'm alive. I wake up every day, so I might as well do something.

Jesse Funk [04:47:19] What can I do? And I feel like that opens up so many doors, so many possibilities. And for me, personal, personally being a therapist and just loving these kids and trying to offer support and love and being present, I think sometimes they don't need advice. They just want someone to be present with them and sit with them and love them and listen to them and acknowledge them and validate them. If I get to do that and just sit with somebody and I die tomorrow. Life well lived.

John Dehlin [04:47:48] Really.

Jesse Funk [04:47:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:47:50] I love it.

Carah Burrell [04:47:50] How.

Jesse Funk [04:47:50] And how simple is that?

Carah Burrell [04:47:52] It's simple.

Jesse Funk [04:47:52] It's simple. I love it so much.

Carah Burrell [04:47:55] Well then, in that same vein, what's your advice to somebody where they don't know what their talents are? I think people like you, me and John, we know our lane and we are excited for life. But as we were talking at eft, we were talking to a lot of teenagers where they have a lot to figure out still. So where, where's your what, what advice do you have to offer to people who maybe they honestly don't see what the point of going in through these struggles, going through life, if they don't feel like they're going to make a difference? Like if they don't feel like they have a place here.

Jesse Funk [04:48:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:48:22] Or if they just don't know.

Jesse Funk [04:48:24] Right. If they don't know, I, I think that that's part of the exciting opportunity to find out or to create it or to look for it. And I am such a huge advocate in when, when I'm working with a client as a therapist, giving that empathy, but also giving them the responsibility, like resilience. So I will sit with you. You can cry, you can scream, you can feel whatever you need to feel, and I'm here for it. And we're also going to look for some solutions. We're also going to practice some mental health. Tools. So we're not just going to sit in the sadness. We're going to validate it, honor it, celebrate it as long as we need to.

Jesse Funk [04:49:02] And then we're also going to move forward. We're also going to try to find some solutions to these problems. So I'm a very solution focused therapy therapist. That's, that's how I like to function, especially with teenagers. They do need to be pushed sometimes and I think that's the very best thing for them. So that's just my personal opinion. But for someone who truly feels like there's no point, I would love to walk with them as we brainstorm, finding a purpose for them and, and discovering things and trying things. And some of them might not work. Let's try some other things. But I'd like to walk with them as they figure it out.

John Dehlin [04:49:37] I love the example of you listening to the Mark Osland interview and all of a sudden you hear an idea, you know, that you didn't know before then.

Carah Burrell [04:49:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:49:46] And then you knew.

Jesse Funk [04:49:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:49:47] And care. I'm sure you've got your own stories of like how things were a year ago and then all of a sudden, tick tock. And what that leads to. Like.

Carah Burrell [04:49:55] Yeah, it's, it's so much of life is a. You don't know what you don't know.

Jesse Funk [04:49:59] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [04:50:00] Until something comes up when things get loud, when they need to get loud, or you have an opportunity that you used to say, oh, this is God, you know, blessing me with this life. And then as a post Mormon, you have to reinterpret like, oh, this is an opportunity. This isn't, this isn't anything that God put in front of me. But it's up to me now to take, take it and seize it. And that was really cool what you did after Mark Oslin's episode. For anyone who doesn't know, I think Mark John introduced the idea idea kind of to Mark that post seminary teachers and like that should, should start a program for post Mormon teens and something that this community has needed for a long time. So they.

John Dehlin [04:50:39] Jesse just does it.

Carah Burrell [04:50:40] Yeah. And then I was like, who is this person? What is she doing? Yeah, like, can I please, can I please join? Can we be friends?

Jesse Funk [04:50:49] Can we be friends?

Carah Burrell [04:50:50] I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. So just. Yeah. I like what you said about, you know, sometimes teens need to be pushed and that you are there to sit with them and brainstorm opportunities for growth, whether it's teenagers or adults. Like, we all need to find what our purpose is in life and being Being in a post Mormon space sometimes where you're a little bit sad and you need time to grieve certain things. But then there's also a season. I like to co op Christian language and call it a season. There's also a season.

John Dehlin [04:51:21] Time for the season.

Carah Burrell [04:51:25] Coping and co. Oping. That song too. Coughing all over the place. Yeah. Anyway, I thought what you just said was beautifully said and now I'm muddling it, but.

John Dehlin [04:51:32] And I just like to, for the adults out there, I just like to say that when I left Microsoft to be a part of the solution of this problem, podcasts didn't exist yet. So I did a full year of like, what am I going to do until I discovered podcasts. So like, you just put one one to try and find your meaning and purpose. Just put one foot in front of the other and start walking towards it and you'll be surprised. With each step, new opportunities or ideas will emerge, new experiences. And as long as you keep putting one foot in front of the other, you, there's, I think there's a good shot. You'll end up finding what you need.

Jesse Funk [04:52:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:52:11] What's going to turn, Turn you on?

Jesse Funk [04:52:12] Yeah, I think, I think that's the hope that's inside human beings. I, I think once you start walking, you'll find it, you'll figure it out. And I think it starts with what makes you happy, what brings you joy. Follow that, follow those little breadcrumbs. And we, we will figure it out. Because we are resilient. That's not a question. Human beings are so resilient. It's just exercising the muscle and it's making the choice to move forward. And that's something that I, I'm, I struggle. Obviously this has been the hardest year of my entire life. So I've been in it, I've been angry, I've been sad. I have fallen apart.

Jesse Funk [04:52:47] And so my own journey of trying to push myself and, and be resilient has been really good for me and healthy for me. Because we gotta move, we gotta keep moving forward and there's such a need. So start with a belief, hopefully a fact that you're needed, you are valuable, you are so important. Important. And if you could start there and see if there's anything you could offer to serve other people with your story, with your struggles, I think that's a great place to start finding meaning.

John Dehlin [04:53:15] Okay. And really quick. There's a lot of people that say, without a belief in God in the afterlife, what's the point of life? Like, I A lot of people, like, if I didn't believe in God, I would not even want to live anymore, because what's the point? And if they're like, oh, it's so sad if there's no afterlife, that just makes this life just super sad. What, what are your thoughts around death in the afterlife now?

Jesse Funk [04:53:42] I honestly feel like if you believe that there's no. That, that this life is sad, if there's no afterlife, I, I would challenge that. Maybe there is a lot of indoctrination that's been inside you because if you didn't know that from as a child, you had never been introduced to the possibility of an afterlife, you would love this life as much as you could.

John Dehlin [04:54:06] You'd say, what a miracle that we even are conscious.

Jesse Funk [04:54:09] Exactly. And so I think challenging that possible indoctrination and saying, okay, so let's remove that scenario. What can I find that is beautiful about this life? How can I make this life as beautiful as possible? Because this is the only thing I have for sure. So I think starting there, I think would be helpful.

John Dehlin [04:54:29] So for you, if this is all there is.

Jesse Funk [04:54:34] Yeah. For me, honestly, if all I had was today, I'm just going to make today as beautiful as possible. I'm definitely setting long term goals for sure. But it has been such an incredible journey of mindfulness for me since I've left the church because I'm so much more present, I'm so much more engaged. Things that really mattered that stressed me out that were really important for some reason. Three years ago, not even important. Now I just don't even get upset over as many things anymore. It puts everything into perspective because I get to be present. I get to live for this life instead of trying to live for the next life.

John Dehlin [04:55:15] Love it. All right, Carah, did you have a couple other trailing questions or.

Carah Burrell [04:55:20] I think I got to most of them. Oh. Everyone's asking if you'll sing another song.

John Dehlin [04:55:24] We do have another song.

Carah Burrell [04:55:25] Huh?

John Dehlin [04:55:26] Okay. Do you want to set the song up and just kind of explain what it is and why you're singing it?

Jesse Funk [04:55:29] Sure. So I think this was one of the EFY songs. I'm like 90. Sure. It's called Worthy to Stand. And I loved this song.

John Dehlin [04:55:38] I thought it's got the wood. You word the worthy word.

Carah Burrell [04:55:40] Worthy.

Jesse Funk [04:55:40] Yes. And if you, if you put on your post Mormon glasses and you like really think about these lyrics from that post Mormon lens, it's. It's gonna resonate because there are so many beautiful lines in this. I had to have a Little bit of fun with it. So I'm gonna be a little silly, you know, Just a little bit to have some fun. Yeah, just a few.

Jesse Funk [04:56:05] Just a few. But. But most of these words were so beautifully written, and I want to be very fair. The songwriter is still a very, very good friend of mine, and I love these lyrics. So if you're. If you're an active LDS person, I think this is a great song for you. And if you're a post Mormon, this is a great song for you. This is called Worthy to Stand.

Jesse Funk [04:56:27] Here we go. All right, hold on here. Okay. Ready, Carah? Okay. The battle rages on in the shadow of another day it's harder to be strong when so many here have lost their way I will give and I'll fight Just to hold onto one ray of light I will give all that I am and put my life in nuance Ho's hands Even when good men fall in every land I'll be worthy to stand I couldn't help myself it had to happen. I will not despair I will listen for them tiktoks Yes, I will I will be prepared I'll be ready to surrender all I will go, I will do Be the Exmoor that I promise to I will give all that I am and put my heart in John de Lin's hands I'll defend the cause of truth in every land I'll be worthy to stand. Please forgive my terrible piano playing, but sure, that works.

John Dehlin [04:58:07] It would have been nice if we gave you a pedal. Pedal would have helped a little bit.

Jesse Funk [04:58:10] A little bit. That's all right. That's all right. We can roll.

John Dehlin [04:58:13] That was so good. I loved it. Okay. All right. Well, that was super beautiful. Margi just texted me and. And said she's loving it. Oh, Margi's watching.

Jesse Funk [04:58:25] I like you, Margi. I'd love to be friends. Just putting that out there.

John Dehlin [04:58:28] Yeah. All right. So I guess. I guess this has been so powerful and so beautiful, and I don't want it to end. I guess, I guess the. The kind of. The last question is, is all your life you were feeling broken. All your life, you were kind of trying to force yourself into a box that wasn't working for you. All your life you were feeling not good enough. How are you now?

Jesse Funk [04:59:00] I truly feel like I have never experienced such happiness. And I honestly feel like my life. Life has never been so blessed, quote, unquote. Like, a lot of people think you will be struck down by lightning if you leave the church, if you're not faithful and that's just not true. It's just absolutely not true. So, so many good things have happened to me and opportunities have come my way. My relationship with my children is amazing. I feel like I. I'm getting. Getting stronger, I'm healing, and so many good things. So I. Yeah, there. There was just all these ideas that I couldn't be happy, that I couldn't be successful, that I wouldn't be blessed if. If I wasn't lds, and that's just not true.

John Dehlin [04:59:51] Yeah. Okay, beautiful. So really quickly, one last plug for if you're a woman out there who can make it to Utah next week, whether in Utah or surrounding area or in England, I don't care if you're looking for a friend, if you're looking for community, if you're looking for inspiration, if you're looking for uplift, if you're looking for wisdom, whether it's Mark Osland, former Mormon seminary teacher, Leah Young, brilliant life coach and dear friend Chelsea Homer, who's a brilliant woman who leads this wonderful community called Faith Journey media meetups. Whether it's the Care Burrell. There she is, or even me, you can come to this, this retreat. Do you want to tell everyone what it's about?

Jesse Funk [05:00:42] Yeah. We're just calling it Especially for Women because we have our Especially for Truth is for the kiddos and Especially for women. This weekend in Park City. It's going to be so fun. You can go to especially for truth.com and get tickets. It's at the Sheraton Hotel. We have so many fun activities planned. Breakout sessions. What?

John Dehlin [05:01:01] Jacuzzi?

Jesse Funk [05:01:02] Oh, yes, yes, of course.

John Dehlin [05:01:03] Talent show.

Jesse Funk [05:01:04] Talent show, yes.

John Dehlin [05:01:05] Karaoke.

Jesse Funk [05:01:07] Maybe you could come and sing karaoke. I would love that, John. For real? For real. That would actually be amazing. You are a good singer. I've heard him sing now, and I'm not about false flattery. Just like Carah. He's an excellent singer, truly. That would seriously be so fun. I need you to think about that. And now that that idea is in my head, I'm not gonna let it go. So, anywho, we have amazing swag bags for you. I have this fantastic committee of women that have wanted to just make this inclusive and fun and centering and healing. So we've worked really hard. We're gonna try our very best to just make it a fantastic experience.

John Dehlin [05:01:44] All right. And then are you planning. What's your dream? What's your vision for Especially for Truth for youth?

Jesse Funk [05:01:52] Honestly, down the road, I would love to have like a full week up in Idaho. A full Week in Arizona. There are other people that want to facilitate Southern Utah. Right.

John Dehlin [05:02:02] Texas.

Jesse Funk [05:02:03] That would be amazing.

John Dehlin [05:02:04] So that's kind of what, Southern California. Northern California.

Jesse Funk [05:02:07] Right, exactly. So we're.

John Dehlin [05:02:08] What would it be?

Jesse Funk [05:02:09] A full. A full week, a full camp, just like you. DFY was. Because I love DFY myself. And so I'd love to just facilitate that same kind of experience, which is speakers and speakers activities, a dance. We, we had, we made vision boards. The kids are doing activities together. We're playing minute to win it games where we had a day at the lake. I mean, it was so fun. Yes. Martial arts. I'm a black belt, so that's something I'm very passionate about.

John Dehlin [05:02:36] It was good food.

Jesse Funk [05:02:37] Yes. We had amazing food. We had a cupcake war. We had like prizes. The kids designed their own charities. Like, it was very universal. The actual curriculum is on the especiallyfortruth.com website. So if you want to see what I'm trying to teach the kids, they're all universal principles. I call it the 10 levels of truth. And they're just very like mindfulness. And what is truth by itself? What is worth by itself. So we're trying really hard to keep it very positive. Not Mormon bashy at all. Acknowledging the pain for sure, but just being able to process it. And then let's move forward. How are we going to move forward and have amazing lives?

Jesse Funk [05:03:14] So this coming summer, it's going to be the second week of June, June 13th, I think through the 17th in southern Utah. As soon as we are officially confirmed at the place that we want to have it in southern Utah, we'll open up tickets, but you can join our email list. So you are the first. First to know.

John Dehlin [05:03:33] I was stunned by the rapport between the students.

Jesse Funk [05:03:36] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [05:03:37] Or the attendees. How much close they were. Close knit. How much fun they were having. Their questions were, I mean, better questions than many adult groups that I speak to.

Jesse Funk [05:03:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:03:49] And I always have great attendees. Like, it's not. That's not to disparage people that attend my retreats or workshops elsewhere, but those kids were tuned in, brilliant, great questions. So much rapport, having so much fun. I know the energy of the event you created and this is just a shout out if any of those youth are. I adore you guys. I was just so proud, honored to like be in your presence. And that's not a condescending thing. These are brilliant, gifted humans.

Jesse Funk [05:04:17] They were so emotionally intelligent, so resilient, so knowledgeable about like everything we were talking about with like the right verbiage and to be able to identify kind of some basic psychology and just be able to verbalize it so beautifully. They were incredible. I learned so much from them. And I'm hoping that those exact kids are our counselors at the next one.

John Dehlin [05:04:38] Oh, that's so great. So if there are parents out there or adults who either want to invest or, like, donate to support this program, your work work. If they want to sponsor scholarships so that, you know, women can come next week or children can come next year, or they want to volunteer their resources, their time, their property, their expertise to help build this program to support you, how do they do that?

Jesse Funk [05:05:08] There is a donate button on especiallyfortruth.com it is a 501C3 that I've had set up. I do other camps and other workshops and, and it's all about leadership training. So this definitely falls within the umbrella of the nonprofit I set up. So there is a donate button on there. That would be amazing. It would definitely be amazing because I want to do it well, and it takes money to do it well. There's no way around it. So thank you very much in advance for your support.

John Dehlin [05:05:34] If I contact you.

Jesse Funk [05:05:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:05:36] To volunteer or whatever, you could probably

Jesse Funk [05:05:39] follow me on Instagram. That might be be the, the easiest. I did set up an Instagram for Especially for Truth. So that's an option. Just shoot me a DM or a DM on TikTok at especially for Truth.

John Dehlin [05:05:49] You don't have a public email right now?

Jesse Funk [05:05:51] I, I, yeah, I just think it might be the quickest way to, like, create a community.

John Dehlin [05:05:55] All right.

Jesse Funk [05:05:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:05:56] All right.

Jesse Funk [05:05:57] But there's an email list on the website on especiallyfortruth.com that's going to be the best way to just be up to date on everything.

John Dehlin [05:06:02] Got it?

Jesse Funk [05:06:03] Yeah.

Final Reflections and Closing Remarks

John Dehlin [05:06:03] All right. Any final words of wisdom, Jesse, or any final things you want to.

Jesse Funk [05:06:08] I'm just so grateful for this opportunity. This podcast has meant so much to me personally. I can't tell you how grateful I am for the work you've done. John. I know you've made so many sacrifices to do this, and you've just helped me so much, and I just want to say thank you. So to be here, to be a part of it, it's such a privilege. Like, I feel so deeply honored. And Carrie, you're stuck with me forever. Sorry. Not sorry. Going to be besties, so.

Carah Burrell [05:06:34] Right on.

Jesse Funk [05:06:35] I think you guys are amazing and just so grateful for the work that you do because it is making such a huge difference. There's such A mass exodus of people leaving, and they need so much support. And you guys have already created it, and I would love to be part of that.

Carah Burrell [05:06:51] This.

Jesse Funk [05:06:51] This movement of offering support and events and therapy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:06:56] Love it. Well, Ken, Carah, thanks for joining us today. It's always great to have you.

Carah Burrell [05:07:03] An honor. Oh, my goodness.

John Dehlin [05:07:04] Thanks for all you do for us.

Carah Burrell [05:07:06] Thanks for letting me be a part of this and just this amazing organization and that we get to tell these stories. And, Jesse, that's beautiful. Thank you for telling us. Just thank you for being around, for being alive, just like the. The influence that you have had, that you're going to have going forward. Forward. Just.

John Dehlin [05:07:25] It's only been, like, a couple months. Think about what she's gonna do in a year or five years.

Carah Burrell [05:07:30] I'm telling you, bestie over here can't. I'm not running away from her. Yeah, we're hitched.

John Dehlin [05:07:36] Now maybe I can retire. Maybe now that. Now that Carah Burrell and Jesse Funk.

Jesse Funk [05:07:41] Are the donuts even an option. Sorry, you're stuck with us, too. Not optional.

John Dehlin [05:07:46] I can't return.

Carah Burrell [05:07:47] Nope.

Jesse Funk [05:07:47] Nope.

John Dehlin [05:07:48] All right. 20 more years. 10 more years. I'm.

Jesse Funk [05:07:50] More years. Yes. I'll. I feel comfortable saying, like, maybe 30.

John Dehlin [05:07:54] 30 more years.

Jesse Funk [05:07:55] I'll give you 30. And then you can retire.

Carah Burrell [05:07:58] Then you can be an old man doing laps at the pool and we won't bother you anymore. But until then, we need John, we need Jesse. We need other people coming into this chair, helping other people be brave and

Jesse Funk [05:08:08] speaking up and being honest and happy, like, looking for actual happiness. We need that so badly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:08:17] All right. Jesse Funk, we adore you and we're so grateful for you and we're so excited for what you're going to be doing.

Jesse Funk [05:08:24] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [05:08:26] Don't go away.

Jesse Funk [05:08:26] Oh, I'm not going to let you guys down. I'm so excited.

John Dehlin [05:08:29] Don't fade away. Okay?

Jesse Funk [05:08:31] Okay. Deal.

John Dehlin [05:08:33] All right.

Jesse Funk [05:08:33] I promise.

John Dehlin [05:08:34] Okay. All right. Dear listeners and viewers, thank you so much for joining us today. We love you guys. A few of you donate to the Open Stories foundation to make all this possible. Huge thanks to our Don. Donors. We could not do this without you.

John Dehlin [05:08:49] So if you. If you're a monthly donor, if you donate annually, it doesn't matter. Thank you for the support. We couldn't do without you. Gerardo, thanks for what you do with cinematography and thumbnails. Brooklyn, for your editing, audio and video. Carah, of course, co. Co. You know, producer, co host. It's so great to have you and all our board. Clint Martin and Carrie Whitbeck. You guys have just been amazing. So just thanks to everyone who makes all this possible. If you value this content, if you derive value from it, if you appreciate it, if you want to see it continue, we would really ask you to consider becoming a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [05:09:29] We have lost, we lost a lot of donors just by trying to talk about the COVID vaccine and give our best thoughts around that. We've lost, lost dozens of donors from that. And just generally every month, you know, Covid hit some people financially in rough ways.

John Dehlin [05:09:46] So if, you know, we're always year to year, like wondering if we're going to be around the year after. So less than one out of a thousand of our listeners and viewers actually contribute. So if you value this program you want to see continue, please become a monthly donor. Just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, sign up for whatever month, monthly amount you can afford. And our vow to you is to be financially transparent, to use every dollar in a way that pushes the cause forward.

John Dehlin [05:10:16] And that's just all we're going to do. And our commitment to you is to keep doing this for as long as there's a need to promote healing and growth and community and to support other worthy causes, whether it's Radio Free Mormon or especially for Truth or Thrive Sunstone. We don't care. We want to support. We believe that a rising tide lifts all ships and so we just want to be responsible, stable, long term members of the community that are just elevating all the different good causes. Ladder Gay Stories Podcast with Kyle Ashworth there's just so many worthy causes and we want to support them all.

John Dehlin [05:10:48] So please support us so we can continue supporting everybody else and supporting you all the ways. We have so many haters that go on on itunes or the Apple Podcast app. Don't even listen to the podcast and give us one star reviews. They're dragging our review ratings down. They do that on the Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook page as well. If you can't support us financially, or even if you do, one way you can make a big difference right now is to go and give us a positive review on Apple Podcast app or on the Facebook page Mormon Stories Podcast Facebook Page because otherwise our star ratings go down and people think we're bad, evil or boring.

John Dehlin [05:11:26] Heaven forbid people. So please give us positive reviews. Please follow us on TikTok @Mormon Stories podcast. Please follow us on Instagram at Mormon Stories. Please follow us on YouTube and when you subscribe and follow our different social media platforms that helps improve our placement in the algorithms as well as when you watch our stuff, click on our stuff, share our stuff, and comment on our our stuff. Carah's doing great work with the TikTok channel Mormon stories podcast. TikTok channel. We now have 62 or 63,000 subscribers. Just at the TikTok channel. We're reaching a new, younger audience. And so if you just want to see more youth have the opportunity to learn the truth about the church so that they can make informed decisions, support our, support us just for our TikTok channel alone.

John Dehlin [05:12:16] Some of those videos that Carah's put up have 1.3 1.4 million views. I'm starting to get recognized as a TikToker, not as a podcaster. And that's bizarre seeing that I've been a podcaster for 16 years and a TikToker for 12 minutes. But I'm starting to get recognized more for TikTok than Mormon stories. And Carah, again, thank you so much for what you do with TikTok.

Carah Burrell [05:12:39] Yep, yep. It's such good content and I love, I just love how much people are resonating with it and going back and watching old episodes. And I'm sure Jesse, you'll be up there on the TikTok very quickly.

John Dehlin [05:12:51] Were there a few gems today that will are TikTok worthy?

Carah Burrell [05:12:54] Oh yeah. I have

John Dehlin [05:12:57] a list of 20.

Carah Burrell [05:12:59] Yes. Yes. Jesse, you did such a good job articulating so many good points. So you're going to be, you already are pretty famous, but you're going to get all, all the fame, TikTok fame. What else are we looking for?

Jesse Funk [05:13:10] I would like friendship, fame. That's what I want.

Carah Burrell [05:13:13] Stick with me, kid.

Jesse Funk [05:13:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [05:13:16] All right, well, love you guys. Please and most importantly, just share these episodes with people that you think could benefit from them. And spreading word of mouth is, is how Jesse heard about us. That's how people often hear. So please spread the love. Please be kind to each other. Please be good to each other. Check out the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast@mormonfaithcrisis.com it's free. If you need coaching or therapy, go there and then find a good coach or therapist. But do both because you've got 70 hours of free coaching and therapy on all these every day. People message or email me. John, I need help with this.

John Dehlin [05:13:51] John, I need help with that. Go to Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast. Start from the beginning. It will help you so, so much. And we've got got a full two and a half day retreat. We Recorded the whole retreat with Natasha, with the participants, all free. All their. All our best stuff because we don't do this for the money. We just want to help as many people as we can. So please take advantage of that resource. Anything I've forgotten, Carah?

Carah Burrell [05:14:17] No. How else can we support you, Jesse? Is there anything else we can do?

Jesse Funk [05:14:21] That's fantastic. I'm so excited. My whole heart is just like full steam ahead. Let's make this especially for truth thing happen. So I appreciate those shout outs, you guys and I love feeling like we're a team. Like what I'm trying to do is like, can be helpful to Mormon stories and obviously vice versa. So I love being a part of this. I feel like we are like, I don't know, part of this movement. It's just so exciting to me. So thank you.

John Dehlin [05:14:49] And it's only getting bigger with COVID and the post Covid. I'm calling it the Mormon Spring. The church is down to 20% active membership. 80% of the people in the world who are alive, who are baptized Mormon no longer identify as Mormon or no longer attend the church. 80%.

Jesse Funk [05:15:05] I did not know that.

John Dehlin [05:15:06] Four. Yeah, four. It take all the people who've ever been baptized who are alive. Four times as many have left the church than have stayed.

Jesse Funk [05:15:14] No way.

John Dehlin [05:15:15] That's where we are in 2000. Yeah.

Jesse Funk [05:15:17] Oh, my word. I had no idea. That's beautiful.

John Dehlin [05:15:20] I mean, you know, it depends on your point of view, but subjective truth.

Carah Burrell [05:15:23] And I, I also, I always like to add a little asterisk that there's no such, there's no right way to Mormon or ex Mormon or whatever. Like most people who have left the church who have been baptized, like John was saying, are ex Mormons or in some type of nuanced post Mormon state. So there's no stereotype of what a, you know, where they say, you know, leave the church, can't leave alone. There's a million different types of ways to do this. And so facilitating any type of conversation around what are the conversations you were raised with and what happened in your home, how can we grow out of that and, you know, facilitate more healing and ideas that help us make a better world.

Carah Burrell [05:16:00] Like, so just to taunt John's point. Yes. Like most people who were ever baptized are ex Mormons and in need of this type of content, I think. Or if they don't need it. Great.

Jesse Funk [05:16:10] Right.

Carah Burrell [05:16:10] If you're fine without it, that's also fine, right?

Jesse Funk [05:16:12] Yep. Wherever they are.

John Dehlin [05:16:14] All right. Well, Jesse Funk, you're the best Stay in touch. Carrie, you're the best. Stay in touch.

Carah Burrell [05:16:20] You're the best. You're the best. What am I doing here?

John Dehlin [05:16:23] And listeners and viewers, you're the best. Thanks for your support and please stay tuned Soon. Oh, my gosh. Wednesday, Thursday and Friday this week, a groundbreaking Mormon Stories podcast interview with the Lang family. I don't want to give the spoilers away, but it will be life changing. Needleman moving. So join us on YouTube Wednesday, Thursday and Friday for an amazing three part series with with the Lang family.

Carah Burrell [05:16:49] I'm obsessed. I have the best job in the world. 10 hours in the room with the Lang family.

Jesse Funk [05:16:53] It's amazing.

Carah Burrell [05:16:54] I'm obsessed.

John Dehlin [05:16:55] Yeah. All right, thanks, Jesse Funk. You take care. Okay?

Jesse Funk [05:16:58] Thank you, sir.

John Dehlin [05:16:59] And we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take.

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